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I get ; Evaluation aborted on #. 2021-02-01T04:45:01Z no-defun-allowed: That has returned multiple values, not one. 2021-02-01T04:45:30Z asarch: If I do: (format t "The date is: ~d~%" (simple-date:decode-timestamp (simple-date:universal-time-to-timestamp 3609946480))) I only get The date is: 2014 2021-02-01T04:45:38Z no-defun-allowed: And the order of the values is well known; you could use (multiple-value-bind (year month day hour minute second timezone) (decode-timestamp ...) body ...) to bind the values in BODY. 2021-02-01T04:46:01Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-01T04:46:19Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-01T04:46:35Z no-defun-allowed: At least, I think the last value is the timezone, I don't remember. 2021-02-01T04:47:13Z no-defun-allowed: Can't you just use decode-universal-time instead of going through SIMPLE-DATE and presumably a Unix timestamp? 2021-02-01T04:47:16Z no-defun-allowed: clhs decode-universal-time 2021-02-01T04:47:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_un.htm 2021-02-01T04:48:01Z phadthai: and the loop error is because you useed for-in that expects lists, the for-as-across form can iterate over vectors 2021-02-01T04:48:12Z asarch: (multiple-value-bind (year month day hour minute second) (simple-date:decode-timestamp (simple-date:universal-time-to-timestamp 3609946480)) (format t "The date is: ~d/~d/~d ~d:~d:~d~%" year month day hour minute second)) 2021-02-01T04:48:16Z asarch: Yeah! 2021-02-01T04:48:19Z phadthai: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/m_loop.htm 2021-02-01T04:48:55Z beach: phadthai: But this is not a vector either. 2021-02-01T04:48:55Z asarch: Thank you! 2021-02-01T04:49:07Z asarch: Yeah, that is not a vector 2021-02-01T04:49:40Z phadthai: I may have misread but considered the \n as meaning a string there 2021-02-01T04:50:21Z asarch: Yeah, sorry, sorry :-( 2021-02-01T04:50:33Z asarch: My mistake 2021-02-01T04:51:26Z no-defun-allowed: Then it had better be in double quotes too. 2021-02-01T04:53:57Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T04:54:41Z beach: phadthai: Sorry, my bad. 2021-02-01T04:55:52Z asarch: Thank you guys! 2021-02-01T04:55:56Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-) 2021-02-01T04:56:01Z asarch: Have a nice day 2021-02-01T04:56:04Z phadthai: nothing important :) 2021-02-01T04:56:04Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-01T04:56:36Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-01T05:03:38Z TMA quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-01T05:05:05Z TMA joined #lisp 2021-02-01T05:13:34Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-01T05:14:17Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-01T05:14:47Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T05:19:24Z catt joined #lisp 2021-02-01T05:27:20Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T05:27:34Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-02-01T05:39:04Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-02-01T05:44:31Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-01T05:45:31Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-02-01T05:49:01Z madage 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2021-02-01T09:29:50Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-01T09:31:24Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T09:32:20Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-01T09:32:38Z maier joined #lisp 2021-02-01T09:33:00Z seeg12344 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T09:33:17Z seeg1234 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-01T09:36:47Z u0_a61 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-01T09:37:52Z marcoxa: Hello 2021-02-01T09:38:03Z no-defun-allowed: Hello marcoxa 2021-02-01T09:42:25Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-01T09:44:31Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T09:44:33Z frodef`` joined #lisp 2021-02-01T09:45:33Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-01T09:47:13Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-01T09:49:03Z frodef`` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-01T09:49:36Z u0_a61 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T09:49:44Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T09:52:09Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-01T09:54:25Z caesarsalad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T09:54:34Z phoe: hellooooo 2021-02-01T09:55:37Z beach: Hello phoe. 2021-02-01T09:55:58Z no-defun-allowed: Helloooooo phoe. 2021-02-01T10:06:36Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-01T10:07:58Z u0_a61 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-01T10:08:25Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-01T10:11:32Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-01T10:16:08Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-01T10:18:22Z edgar-rft: not enough ooos 2021-02-01T10:18:59Z VincentVega: Is (ql:quickload 'definer) working for you? I am getting "system not found" error, even though definer is listed on the quicklisp releases page. 2021-02-01T10:19:18Z no-defun-allowed: (implode (append '(h e l l) '#1=(o . #1#))) 2021-02-01T10:19:43Z VincentVega: *for you -> for anyone 2021-02-01T10:19:46Z phoe: VincentVega: what is your QL dist version? 2021-02-01T10:19:53Z no-defun-allowed: Have you updated the Quicklisp dist recently? I see it was added this month. 2021-02-01T10:19:57Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-01T10:20:08Z phoe: try a tactical (ql:update-all-dists) before retrying 2021-02-01T10:20:18Z VincentVega: let me try that 2021-02-01T10:20:32Z no-defun-allowed: Changes from quicklisp 2020-12-20 to quicklisp 2021-01-24: New projects: .... definer-20210124-git .... 2021-02-01T10:21:19Z VincentVega: gotcha, the project lives since 2004, so didn't expect that : ) thanks phoe, no-defun-allowed 2021-02-01T10:25:02Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T10:28:08Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-01T10:28:17Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-01T10:29:51Z edgar-rft: definer may be finer but defun is more fun 2021-02-01T10:33:29Z VincentVega: edgar-rft: in definer you could do (def fun), defun is more like un 2021-02-01T10:36:36Z marcoxa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T10:36:52Z marcoxa joined #lisp 2021-02-01T10:38:50Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2021-02-01T10:40:33Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-01T10:43:25Z krid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T10:44:57Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-01T10:45:20Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-01T10:46:21Z Zeco joined #lisp 2021-02-01T10:46:31Z ex_nihilo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T10:46:33Z marcoxa: @VincentVinga not sure why "definer" is not working on quicklisp. 2021-02-01T10:46:56Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-01T10:47:26Z marcoxa: Ok. I see it was a snag with the quicklisp distro. 2021-02-01T10:48:03Z marcoxa: BTW. I am looking for helpers on my projects... (Plus the bits and pieces I am working on in my spare time) 2021-02-01T10:48:43Z VincentVega: marcoxa: You are the dev? Cool, so I am looking through it, I gather there isn't a def method (setf smth) yet? 2021-02-01T10:49:52Z beach: marcoxa: Are you planning to pay those helpers, or are you looking for volunteers? 2021-02-01T10:54:33Z Codaraxis__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-01T10:55:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-01T10:56:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T10:56:21Z maier quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-01T10:59:04Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-01T10:59:53Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T11:00:06Z vegansbane696 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-01T11:02:33Z marcoxa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-01T11:03:13Z engblom joined #lisp 2021-02-01T11:04:30Z engblom: Please recommend me a minimal web framework that you can get and keep updated through quicklisp 2021-02-01T11:07:51Z Codaraxis__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T11:08:33Z schweers joined #lisp 2021-02-01T11:08:39Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-01T11:12:52Z hjudt quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-01T11:23:30Z heredoc quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-02-01T11:28:35Z vegansbane696 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T11:33:43Z marcoxa joined #lisp 2021-02-01T11:48:01Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-01T11:50:02Z marcoxa: Hi again 2021-02-01T11:52:15Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-01T11:54:06Z VincentVega: marcoxa: Hi : ) 2021-02-01T11:57:18Z VincentVega: marcoxa: so, about the defmethod (setf slot-name), did you have any reservations about not including it yet? 2021-02-01T12:02:49Z marcoxa: Not sure. It is probably just a slip. Care to make a proposal? Just make a branch in the repository and add it. 2021-02-01T12:03:49Z marcoxa: I believe I was just a bit wary of using CONSes for names just in case you wanted to add extra "declaration" thingies. 2021-02-01T12:04:59Z epony joined #lisp 2021-02-01T12:05:40Z caesarsalad joined #lisp 2021-02-01T12:06:08Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T12:06:35Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-01T12:08:23Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-01T12:08:32Z VincentVega: marcoxa: I think if the library doesn't specialize on list/cons explicitly, then the user can specialize on it in their code without overriding anything to add anything extra. 2021-02-01T12:11:02Z VincentVega: marcoxa: Ok! I will just familiarize myself a bit more with the library, but I will branch it and make the amends to it that I think would be good. I guess I can contact you on right there on gitlab in case of any questions? 2021-02-01T12:19:57Z marcoxa: Issues on the repository are better. I drop by here not that often. 2021-02-01T12:20:57Z VincentVega: marcoxa: Sure. 2021-02-01T12:22:10Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-02-01T12:27:43Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-01T12:34:36Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T12:43:51Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T12:43:59Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-01T12:44:34Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-01T12:51:45Z u0_a61 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T12:56:30Z deltab quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-01T12:57:32Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-01T12:57:51Z ptr_0x0001 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-02-01T12:58:52Z Guest14107 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T12:58:53Z easye` joined #lisp 2021-02-01T12:59:13Z easye quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T13:02:32Z Lord_of_Life quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) 2021-02-01T13:05:19Z deltab joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:05:38Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:26:30Z jackdaniel: grab it while its fresh :) https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/posts/ECL-2121-release.html (new ecl release) 2021-02-01T13:26:49Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T13:27:05Z lisp-newbee-1357 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:27:19Z lisp-newbee-1357: hi, can anyone recommend between radiance and caveman2? 2021-02-01T13:27:31Z lisp-newbee-1357: Can I use them for a regular angular app in the front end? What is lacking compared to Ruby on Rails in terms of what I need to build an app? I know community and plugins are mentioned, but is there anything besides that which would break a project?? 2021-02-01T13:28:05Z lisp-newbee-1357: thanks so much for the help! 2021-02-01T13:28:20Z lisp-newbee-1357: I really want to learn lisp and use it for a project 2021-02-01T13:28:39Z lisp-newbee-1357: So I'm hopping by doing something with it I will learn and become productive 2021-02-01T13:33:38Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:33:45Z devon: Welcome to #lisp. Never heard of either but I'll take a peek. 2021-02-01T13:34:32Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-02-01T13:35:00Z lisp-newbee-1357 quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-01T13:35:16Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T13:35:17Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-01T13:36:24Z dn joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:36:47Z dn is now known as lisp-newbee-1357 2021-02-01T13:38:02Z lisp-newbee-1357: Thanks :D 2021-02-01T13:38:02Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T13:39:07Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:39:59Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:40:09Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-01T13:40:39Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-01T13:41:52Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:42:53Z gxt quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-01T13:45:10Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:46:47Z voidlily joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:47:17Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:48:24Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:48:45Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-01T13:53:05Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T13:54:14Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:01:13Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:04:17Z lisp-newbee-1357 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-01T14:10:14Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-01T14:11:58Z phoe: I heard good things about radiance 2021-02-01T14:14:15Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:16:22Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T14:17:08Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:17:10Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:19:26Z mh__ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:21:51Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:27:56Z gproto23 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:31:02Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:38:03Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:38:36Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T14:38:43Z caret joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:42:55Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:43:41Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-01T14:45:31Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-01T14:46:11Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-01T14:46:38Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-01T14:47:31Z zulu-inuoe joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:49:37Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:49:54Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:50:05Z gproto23 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-01T14:50:10Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:50:58Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:52:55Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:53:14Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-01T14:53:32Z gproto023 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:54:09Z gproto023 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T14:54:39Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-01T14:54:42Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-01T14:55:23Z krid joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:55:50Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-01T14:55:52Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-01T14:58:20Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T15:01:32Z u0_a61 is now known as Wezl 2021-02-01T15:01:41Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-01T15:03:01Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:05:07Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-01T15:05:26Z frgo_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-01T15:06:28Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:07:16Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:17:45Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:17:57Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-01T15:20:10Z ralt joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:24:58Z xanderle joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:25:33Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:27:02Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:31:25Z dbotton: I recall someone asked here or on discord about change-class - I am using it in my latest tutorial on building new clog components - https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/20-tutorial.lisp 2021-02-01T15:32:10Z dbotton: It seems a nice fit - if any one has advice against would love to hear it 2021-02-01T15:33:48Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:34:50Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-01T15:36:38Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-01T15:37:04Z eden joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:41:21Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-01T15:42:27Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:42:29Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-01T15:44:58Z Bike: Why don't you just create the clog-toggler directly? 2021-02-01T15:45:20Z Bike: I mean, since clog-toggler is an unordered list, whatever initialization on unordered lists still applies 2021-02-01T15:45:24Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T15:45:41Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-01T15:47:53Z voidlily joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:47:59Z dbotton: Because that would mean redoing the work of the previous work, ie creating the HTML etc 2021-02-01T15:48:47Z dbotton: Previous work, meaning the parent object 2021-02-01T15:48:54Z beach: We use CHANGE-CLASS a lot in Cleavir. 2021-02-01T15:48:59Z beach: ... and SICL. 2021-02-01T15:49:20Z dbotton: I really like the idea, far better then a dangerous cast 2021-02-01T15:49:41Z beach: "cast"? 2021-02-01T15:49:50Z Bike: I mean, if initialization of an unordered-list was through methods on initialize-instance and stuff, they would apply just as well for make-instance on a subclass of an unordered list. 2021-02-01T15:49:52Z beach: There are no casts in Common Lisp as far as I know. 2021-02-01T15:50:03Z dbotton: In other languages upcasting/downcasting 2021-02-01T15:50:05Z Bike: Though it looks like here you're doing some other stuff I'm not familiar enough with the library to understand 2021-02-01T15:50:36Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:51:40Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:52:16Z beach: dbotton: Most other languages are way more broken than Common Lisp. 2021-02-01T15:52:43Z dbotton: I again am really enjoying it 2021-02-01T15:52:58Z beach: Great! 2021-02-01T15:53:15Z dbotton: Is still hard to get away from typing more 2021-02-01T15:53:19Z _death: dbotton: cool project.. I suggest to create a different package for each tutorial, say clog.tutorial-01 etc. and an asd file that loads them all 2021-02-01T15:54:02Z dbotton: I'll look in to it _death 2021-02-01T15:54:44Z dbotton: My idea was you would run one at a time and look at source (clog:run-tutorial 1) then 2 etc 2021-02-01T15:55:20Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-01T15:55:51Z dbotton: Tutorial 13 does that, shows you how to create your own project using clog with asd etc 2021-02-01T15:56:01Z _death: dbotton: each tutorial could export a run symbol 2021-02-01T15:56:34Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:56:46Z dbotton: Good point 2021-02-01T15:57:06Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-01T15:57:11Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-01T15:58:11Z _death: dbotton: with a separate asd file, clog itself wouldn't depend on its tutorials.. you could still define a clog-user package for quick experimentation 2021-02-01T15:58:33Z beach: dbotton: Top-level comments should have three (or sometimes four) semicolons. 2021-02-01T15:59:35Z dbotton: Thanks! 2021-02-01T15:59:51Z beach: clhs 2.4.4.2.3 2021-02-01T15:59:51Z specbot: Use of Triple Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddbc.htm 2021-02-01T16:00:07Z beach: clhs 2.4.4.2.2 2021-02-01T16:00:07Z specbot: Use of Double Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddbb.htm 2021-02-01T16:00:22Z dbotton: _death I think also worth giving each tutorial its own url path so all can be accessed same time 2021-02-01T16:00:49Z dbotton: You can currently run each tutorial then after opens browser go to next 2021-02-01T16:01:01Z beach: dbotton: It is very unusual to have blank lines in the middle of a top-level form. 2021-02-01T16:01:03Z _death: dbotton: yeah, that way it provides more clue to the user on how to do that 2021-02-01T16:01:21Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-01T16:01:39Z _death: dbotton: there could be a "master" tutorial with links to the rest, like clim's demodemo ;) 2021-02-01T16:01:48Z dbotton: Beach, can you clarify that for me 2021-02-01T16:01:49Z _death: *mcclim 2021-02-01T16:02:44Z beach: dbotton: You should not have blank lines before (load-css..) in init-toggler. 2021-02-01T16:03:27Z beach: dbotton: And not before ;; Using change-class nor beore new-obj in create-toggler . 2021-02-01T16:03:55Z beach: dbotton: And not before (clog-toggler:activate-toggler). 2021-02-01T16:04:09Z beach: dbotton: And not before (nitialize #'on-new-window). 2021-02-01T16:04:29Z beach: Those blank lines are all inside top-level forms. 2021-02-01T16:04:55Z dbotton: What the one between init-toggler and the let 2021-02-01T16:05:04Z beach: Same. 2021-02-01T16:05:42Z beach: It is highly unusual to have blank lines inside a top-level form. And the signal you send to the person reading your code is not clear. 2021-02-01T16:06:13Z dbotton: Thanks, very appreciated 2021-02-01T16:06:19Z dbotton: I'll look over codebase 2021-02-01T16:06:21Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-02-01T16:06:48Z dbotton: That is a big part, I am trying to get the styles and idioms where can of the language 2021-02-01T16:07:04Z beach: Yes, that's good. 2021-02-01T16:07:25Z _death: if we're into small style suggestions... defclass forms usually place the slots list on its own line, even if it's empty 2021-02-01T16:09:19Z engblom: Please recommend me a minimal web framework that you can get and keep updated through quicklisp. 2021-02-01T16:09:27Z dbotton: I always am in the the small stuff 2021-02-01T16:09:32Z engblom: Something with good documentation 2021-02-01T16:09:36Z dbotton: into 2021-02-01T16:10:29Z beach: engblom: Are you saying you are a volunteer for maintaining such a thing? Or do you just want to use it? 2021-02-01T16:11:27Z engblom: beach: I would want to use a such one. 2021-02-01T16:11:45Z beach: engblom: Then why do you want it to be minimal? 2021-02-01T16:12:47Z engblom: beach: I have been asked to make a simple web gui for configuring fiber connections to the customers of my work place (a small ISP). All it needs is to keep a few settings and to take information from forms and then use that information for running cmd-line instructions. 2021-02-01T16:13:22Z engblom: beach: Because it is a small project, I was thinking that it is perfect for me to learn a bit of lisp at the same time. 2021-02-01T16:13:41Z beach: I see. 2021-02-01T16:13:57Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-01T16:14:30Z engblom: beach: A huge framework would be a bit of an overkill in this case, and it would take away from the real goal: to learn a bit of lisp 2021-02-01T16:14:47Z beach: I think I understand. 2021-02-01T16:16:02Z _death: engblom: personally I don't use any framework.. you can start with just hunchentoot, an html generation library (I like yaclml), and sqlite 2021-02-01T16:16:26Z dbotton: engblom you may want to try my clog project (it is a perfect fit for it) but you should use the GitHub version until next update of quicklisp next month https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog.git 2021-02-01T16:17:08Z dbotton: Sorry - git clone https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog.git in to you common-lisp dir 2021-02-01T16:18:04Z dbotton: It has a lot of doc and tutorials as well 2021-02-01T16:18:27Z _death: dbotton: I like clog, but it does require javascript and websockets (I have js disabled) 2021-02-01T16:18:30Z engblom: _death, dbotton Thanks! 2021-02-01T16:19:24Z dbotton: _death that makes for a very static world :) 2021-02-01T16:19:59Z _death: dbotton: yes, that's how I like my browsing :) I use other programs when I want interactivity 2021-02-01T16:20:48Z dbotton: _death CLOG also is designed for using as standalone software 2021-02-01T16:21:26Z dbotton: In fact big part of design, for now you can very easily use ceramic and clog together for native desktop apps 2021-02-01T16:21:32Z _death: dbotton: yep.. it's cool 2021-02-01T16:21:44Z dbotton: I have to write up a tutorial on that soon 2021-02-01T16:26:35Z dbotton: I updated https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/20-tutorial.lisp 2021-02-01T16:26:53Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-01T16:27:32Z dbotton: Thank you all, I will update the codebase after and then try and see about the tutorials running in parallel on different paths 2021-02-01T16:31:52Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3-dev) 2021-02-01T16:35:13Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-02-01T16:41:50Z fouric joined #lisp 2021-02-01T16:43:35Z fouric: has anyone bootstrapped ccl on linux-arm before without an existing ccl image (e.g. using sbcl)? i'm trying to bring it up on my raspberry pi, and can build the kernel, but there's no included heap image and the manual appears to assume that you already have a working ccl to get a new one 2021-02-01T16:44:11Z j0nd0e quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T16:45:12Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T16:47:33Z j0nd0e joined #lisp 2021-02-01T16:48:23Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-01T16:48:34Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T16:48:43Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-01T16:48:51Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-01T16:49:04Z secretmyth joined #lisp 2021-02-01T16:49:26Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T16:50:06Z beach: fouric: Is that even possible to do? I remember rme telling me that it would require some work to make it possible. Though, perhaps someone did the work? 2021-02-01T16:50:54Z j0nd0e quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T16:50:57Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T16:51:23Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-01T16:51:51Z fouric: i'm not sure whether that particular approach is feasible, but i know that at least *several* people have gotten ccl working on the pi *somehow* 2021-02-01T16:51:58Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-01T16:52:06Z beach: OK. 2021-02-01T16:52:25Z fouric: i'm not sure where lispm hangs out but they wrote a post on it using an older ccl: http://lispm.de/ccl 2021-02-01T16:52:46Z fouric: ...and it's not clear to me if they already had the image, or what 2021-02-01T16:53:27Z fouric: ...but from what you're telling me, building without an existing heap sounds really tricky, so i should look at getting one instead of building from scratch 2021-02-01T16:54:43Z beach: This information is from a few years ago, so it could be stale. 2021-02-01T16:55:31Z j0nd0e joined 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there a setting I can use for ECL to give warnings for unused symbols like on scbl? 2021-02-01T19:14:20Z Sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T19:16:18Z arora joined #lisp 2021-02-01T19:16:33Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-01T19:16:57Z Josh_2: silly question but whats the goto solution that people use to stop format strings being line wrapped? 2021-02-01T19:17:07Z Josh_2: It's extremely ugly when it happens 2021-02-01T19:17:15Z nij quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-01T19:18:10Z Xach: Josh_2: you can put them across multiple lines with ~ 2021-02-01T19:19:23Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-02-01T19:19:35Z Josh_2: Right but I mean in the source code 2021-02-01T19:19:40Z Xach: Josh_2: i also mean that. 2021-02-01T19:20:01Z kpoeck: fouric Did you try https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/releases/download/v1.12/linuxarm.tar.gz 2021-02-01T19:20:08Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-01T19:20:30Z Josh_2: Xach: Okay epic :) thanks 2021-02-01T19:21:10Z Josh_2: ah rip now emacs isn't moving the string inline :( 2021-02-01T19:21:18Z marcoxa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-01T19:21:29Z Xach: It does, in my experience, require some manual positioning 2021-02-01T19:21:37Z Xach: not ideal 2021-02-01T19:21:54Z Josh_2: Bit of a pain but It's better than the alternative 2021-02-01T19:21:58Z Josh_2: thanks 2021-02-01T19:22:04Z Zeco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T19:23:10Z lisp-newbee-1357 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-01T19:24:30Z Xach: you could become a hero by helping emacs to understand it 2021-02-01T19:25:32Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T19:25:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-01T19:25:35Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Quit: Bye !) 2021-02-01T19:25:57Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T19:26:06Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-01T19:26:11Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-01T19:27:21Z Josh_2: I could but I doubt it 2021-02-01T19:31:41Z 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2021-02-01T19:47:26Z aeth: That's what streams are for, after all. Breaking things up. 2021-02-01T19:50:31Z mh__ quit 2021-02-01T19:52:33Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-01T19:53:51Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-01T19:53:51Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-01T19:58:31Z flatheap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-01T20:00:32Z Xach: puchacz: you can indent it if you like. 2021-02-01T20:00:40Z Xach: puchacz: but emacs is too dumb to do it automatically. 2021-02-01T20:01:36Z puchacz: Xach - then I will have extra spaces in the string itself 2021-02-01T20:02:33Z Xach: puchacz: no you will not. 2021-02-01T20:02:42Z phoe: puchacz: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2268#2268 2021-02-01T20:03:03Z flatheap joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:03:07Z puchacz: I did not know about ~@ 2021-02-01T20:03:19Z phoe: it is actually tilde newline with the @ modifier 2021-02-01T20:03:27Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:03:42Z arora quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-01T20:03:53Z puchacz: thanks - a useful thing 2021-02-01T20:04:03Z puchacz: and a solution for long strings in general? 2021-02-01T20:04:08Z Xach: no 2021-02-01T20:04:15Z puchacz: ok 2021-02-01T20:04:50Z Xach: I do not use ~@ very much. I usually just want to break a non-breaking control string across multiple lines. 2021-02-01T20:05:02Z Xach: In fact I don't think I have ever used it 2021-02-01T20:05:25Z Xach: Also, I learned about *print-array* in the last week. i have not used it yet. 2021-02-01T20:15:33Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-01T20:17:15Z _heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:18:00Z jonathana joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:18:40Z alanz_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:18:46Z matryoshka` joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:18:46Z chewbranca_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:18:49Z sveit_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:18:53Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:21:01Z lowryder_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:21:50Z _heisig quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-01T20:22:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T20:24:13Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:26:01Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-01T20:26:02Z Lord_of_Life quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-01T20:26:03Z heisig quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-01T20:26:05Z alanz quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-01T20:26:05Z sveit quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-01T20:26:05Z chewbranca quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-01T20:26:05Z lowryder quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-01T20:26:05Z matryoshka quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-01T20:26:07Z skye0[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-01T20:26:08Z stargazesparkle quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-01T20:26:10Z jonathan| quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-01T20:26:12Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-01T20:26:12Z alanz_ is now known as alanz 2021-02-01T20:26:13Z chewbranca_ is now known as chewbranca 2021-02-01T20:28:51Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-01T20:29:21Z amk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-01T20:29:33Z [d] joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:30:16Z amk joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:32:51Z drot quit (K-Lined) 2021-02-01T20:34:22Z drot joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:36:17Z kpoeck quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-02-01T20:36:38Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:37:13Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:38:25Z skye0[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:47:05Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:51:56Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-01T20:52:55Z flatheap quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-01T20:53:02Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:53:40Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-02-01T20:54:13Z flatheap joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:55:50Z caret quit (Quit: Bye Felicia) 2021-02-01T20:57:55Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-01T20:58:38Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-02-01T20:58:48Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-01T20:59:06Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T21:00:25Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T21:00:36Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-01T21:00:51Z nmg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-01T21:00:59Z tgbugs joined #lisp 2021-02-01T21:00:59Z nmg_ joined #lisp 2021-02-01T21:02:20Z marcoxa joined #lisp 2021-02-01T21:02:50Z marcoxa: exit 2021-02-01T21:02:52Z marcoxa left #lisp 2021-02-01T21:02:58Z tychoish: heh 2021-02-01T21:05:30Z jasbrg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-01T21:11:22Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-01T21:17:08Z phoe: https://i.imgur.com/zc47w7y.jpg 2021-02-01T21:17:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-01T21:18:10Z no-defun-allowed: Not sure if I get it. 2021-02-01T21:19:24Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-02-01T21:20:11Z puchacz: mechanical keyboards being the big thing? 2021-02-01T21:21:06Z shinohai: OMG I'm trapped ... no escape! 2021-02-01T21:21:23Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: there is no escape 2021-02-01T21:21:30Z no-defun-allowed: fouric, beach: lispm's writeup on ARM Clozure is still up to date, but there is still some weird bug with threads. 2021-02-01T21:21:38Z no-defun-allowed: Oh dear. 2021-02-01T21:24:34Z puchacz: ECL would work on arm. there is fully functional maxima on ecl application for android. 2021-02-01T21:25:54Z jmercouris: any way to make abstract classes? 2021-02-01T21:25:56Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T21:25:56Z jmercouris: so that the user can't use them directly, but must inherit from them? 2021-02-01T21:26:07Z phoe: jmercouris: protest/base:define-protocol-class 2021-02-01T21:26:07Z puchacz: no 2021-02-01T21:26:21Z puchacz: oops, I must be wrong then 2021-02-01T21:26:28Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/protest/blob/master/src/base/base.lisp 2021-02-01T21:26:30Z jmercouris: phoe: is protest some sort of system? 2021-02-01T21:26:33Z jmercouris: oh I see 2021-02-01T21:26:34Z phoe: t 2021-02-01T21:26:49Z phoe: I remember that I linked you to it some time ago 2021-02-01T21:26:57Z jmercouris: I see 2021-02-01T21:27:02Z jmercouris: thank you phoe 2021-02-01T21:27:05Z jmercouris: I will link to it as well 2021-02-01T21:27:22Z jmercouris: bottom of here: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt/pull/1110 2021-02-01T21:27:39Z phoe: sure 2021-02-01T21:27:41Z Bike: is removal-protocol-object to undefine a protocol class 2021-02-01T21:28:04Z phoe: Bike: not really, it's to remove the "protocolness" off an object 2021-02-01T21:28:27Z Bike: make a protocol class into a regular class? 2021-02-01T21:28:30Z phoe: yes 2021-02-01T21:28:39Z Bike: ic. it's the "object" tripping me up 2021-02-01T21:28:43Z phoe: so e.g. if you redefine that class using defclass rather than define-protocol-class, the "protocolness" flag is removed 2021-02-01T21:29:02Z jmercouris: oh I see, very clever 2021-02-01T21:29:04Z phoe: so after DEFINE-PROTOCOL-CLASS and then DEFCLASS you can instantiate the class normally. 2021-02-01T21:29:35Z jmercouris: I like this, this is good 2021-02-01T21:29:42Z jmercouris: maybe it can be integerated into hu.dwim.class star 2021-02-01T21:30:18Z Bike: but you can still change-class to the protocol class! mwa ha HA! 2021-02-01T21:30:25Z phoe: :O 2021-02-01T21:30:29Z phoe: oh my 2021-02-01T21:30:38Z jmercouris: well, of course you can even override the macro if you so desire 2021-02-01T21:30:50Z jmercouris: I could change package, and redefine the macro 2021-02-01T21:30:55Z jmercouris: that is however not the spirit of the package... 2021-02-01T21:33:14Z Bike: i guess you could put a before/after method on update-instance-for-different-class to be really particular about it 2021-02-01T21:33:20Z phoe: yes 2021-02-01T21:34:53Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-01T21:35:04Z caesarsalad joined #lisp 2021-02-01T21:35:08Z salazar quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-01T21:37:04Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-02-01T21:37:13Z logand``` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-01T21:37:27Z logand` joined #lisp 2021-02-01T21:38:35Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-02-01T21:39:05Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-01T21:41:30Z flatheap quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-02T03:57:26Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:01:45Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-02T04:02:48Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:02:53Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-02T04:03:02Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-02T04:05:04Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T04:07:00Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-02T04:09:42Z seok: hello beach ! ! 2021-02-02T04:10:13Z seok: Is bagger's pushing pixels with lisp good resource to learn programming 3d graphics engine from scratch ? 2021-02-02T04:10:25Z seok: Can I get some book recommendations please : D 2021-02-02T04:12:50Z Nilby: Good morning, and happy 47th international RASSOC day. 2021-02-02T04:13:58Z markasoftware quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-02T04:14:54Z markasoftware joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:17:04Z a0 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:19:17Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-02T04:21:23Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:24:02Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-02-02T04:32:35Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:40:57Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-02T04:41:23Z miasuji joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:46:53Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:47:20Z seok quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-02T04:47:25Z easye joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:47:31Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-02T04:48:00Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-02T04:48:37Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:50:09Z dbotton: is there a way to specify a parameter of a lambda that will not be used so that you don't have to use a declare to indicate to the compiler to ignore 2021-02-02T04:50:48Z dbotton: like a (lambda (_)(something)) and compiler knows that _ is just a filler 2021-02-02T04:51:48Z lalitmee joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:52:11Z beach: No, an IGNORE declaration is the way to do it. 2021-02-02T04:52:40Z Alfr_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-02T04:52:47Z pallas joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:53:11Z no-defun-allowed: There may be a macro in some utility library that understands _ or some other "don't care" name, but not in Common Lisp. 2021-02-02T04:53:37Z no-defun-allowed thinks ~ looks better than admittedly; there are enough-of-these-hyphens that  looks weird. 2021-02-02T04:54:12Z no-defun-allowed: My underscores disappeared. But you get the idea. 2021-02-02T04:54:37Z Nilby: (defmacro _ (&rest exprs) `(lambda (_) (declare (ignorable _)) ,@exprs)) 2021-02-02T04:54:38Z beach: I think the IGNORE declaration looks just fine. 2021-02-02T04:55:47Z kpoeck_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:55:54Z dbotton: when you have many gets ugly 2021-02-02T04:56:47Z beach: Why would you have many IGNORE declarations? 2021-02-02T04:57:11Z dbotton: when abusing let in my case 2021-02-02T04:57:25Z beach: That smells of bad interface design. 2021-02-02T04:58:12Z dbotton: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/17-tutorial.lisp 2021-02-02T04:58:53Z dbotton: there may be a better way I am sure, haven't thought if it yet 2021-02-02T04:59:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T04:59:29Z dbotton: any ideas? 2021-02-02T05:00:13Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-02T05:01:23Z dbotton: worse part is on scbl a (declare (ignore tmp)) doesn't work except for the first one 2021-02-02T05:01:49Z dbotton: (at least the version on this pc using for now) 2021-02-02T05:02:42Z beach: In a case like this, I would probably use a LET with only the variables I meant to use, and then use SETF in the body, and just not set anything when the value is to be ignored. 2021-02-02T05:03:47Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T05:04:07Z beach: Even with some special syntax, it is ugly as it is, because you have forms in a position where the value is used, even though the value is NOT used. 2021-02-02T05:04:23Z pillton: I assume that CREATE-BF, CREATE-SECTION, etc.. mutate the first argument? 2021-02-02T05:04:38Z dbotton: no 2021-02-02T05:04:46Z beach: Probably just use it. 2021-02-02T05:04:57Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-02-02T05:05:27Z CookE[] joined #lisp 2021-02-02T05:05:49Z beach: dbotton: So do (let (header data-area fcontainer....) (setf header (create-section...)) ...) 2021-02-02T05:07:05Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-02T05:07:09Z dbotton: for sure can do that 2021-02-02T05:07:12Z a0 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-02T05:07:13Z beach: I haven't checked the details, but you could probably separate it into 3 LET forms like that. 2021-02-02T05:07:23Z beach: Then you won't need form2 and form3. 2021-02-02T05:07:44Z dbotton: in this case of course, but this is just a tutorial for the api 2021-02-02T05:08:22Z lalitmee quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-02T05:08:28Z beach: dbotton: The idiom (let (var1 var2 ... varn) ...) means you are creating lexical variables that you intend to assign to before you use. 2021-02-02T05:10:03Z dbotton: would be nice to have a way to do in one swoop. but i understand 2021-02-02T05:10:50Z dbotton: the second reason for lots of ignores are the "handlers" (lambda (obj)()) is very common you won't use obj 2021-02-02T05:11:17Z dbotton: but that is one ignore 2021-02-02T05:11:27Z dbotton: not end of world 2021-02-02T05:13:56Z pallas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T05:19:04Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-02T05:26:26Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-02T05:28:06Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-02T05:30:35Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-02T05:33:25Z Codaraxis__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T05:34:15Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T05:36:41Z Codaraxis__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T05:39:30Z Nilby: dbotton: You probably won't like this suggestion, but I would do it differently. Vaugely like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2270#2270 2021-02-02T05:39:51Z dbotton: looking 2021-02-02T05:41:39Z dbotton: I wanted it to feel more lispy using setf properties 2021-02-02T05:43:01Z dbotton: maybe a few things can think about gleaning from your idea 2021-02-02T05:44:21Z Nilby: SGML was only invented, instead of just using Lisp, becasue they thought non-programmers couldn't use Emacs and would get confused/scared by "))))))))" at the end of documents. 2021-02-02T05:46:12Z dbotton: I hear ya 2021-02-02T05:49:28Z malm quit (Quit: Bye bye) 2021-02-02T05:51:39Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-02T05:53:30Z beach: Nilby: Like I often say, people go to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp. 2021-02-02T05:55:51Z v3ga: hmm, speaking of learning common lisp. can anyone recommend any good projects to read over that showcase good practices? I'm mostly interested in web dev so at the moment this seems nice buyt i'm just looking for variety. https://github.com/cicakhq/potato 2021-02-02T05:58:08Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:02:49Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T06:02:49Z Nilby: beach: Now that normal humans don't code even write html anymore, and everything is crammed full of javascript, I think eventually the world will come around to web in lisp because of uniformity of syntax. But maybe not before going through a round of web as assmebly language. 2021-02-02T06:03:06Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-02T06:04:33Z CookE[] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-02T06:06:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:07:49Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-02T06:10:51Z Nilby: v3ga: At risk of offending everyone else who writes excellent software, my opinion is https://github.com/edicl and https://github.com/Shinmera showcase good practices. 2021-02-02T06:11:23Z no-defun-allowed: I can count the people who would disagree with that statement on one finger. 2021-02-02T06:12:15Z Nilby: no-defun-allowed: It's just the people I didn't mention, inclusing myself. 2021-02-02T06:12:29Z no-defun-allowed: And someone decided that we shouldn't compute on computers, rather we should simulate ink on tree shavings. This set networking back 30 years or so. 2021-02-02T06:13:31Z v3ga: Nilby: lol, thanks. I'll pull them and take a look 2021-02-02T06:16:25Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:18:17Z Nilby: "ink on tree shavings" will be the name of my next web framework. 2021-02-02T06:19:18Z no-defun-allowed: For once, I am considering trademarking that. 2021-02-02T06:20:07Z no-defun-allowed: It is meant to be insulting - whoever wrote the book "The web was done by amateurs" didn't get it either. 2021-02-02T06:24:38Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:24:42Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:24:43Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:28:06Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T06:28:52Z CookE[] joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:30:32Z CookE[] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T06:30:49Z CookE[] joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:31:04Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-02T06:31:19Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:35:45Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:38:23Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-02T06:38:58Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:40:05Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-02T06:40:08Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-02T06:42:06Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-02T06:42:25Z krid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T06:43:24Z CookE[] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-02T06:45:12Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-02T06:46:04Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:47:57Z CookE[] joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:48:14Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:50:36Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:52:16Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T06:57:25Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T06:59:04Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:59:33Z flatheap quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T06:59:36Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-02-02T06:59:53Z flatheap joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:01:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:01:25Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:01:51Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-02T07:03:00Z a0 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:03:25Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T07:04:10Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:05:24Z kpoeck_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-02T07:06:13Z CookE[] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-02T07:12:37Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:17:57Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-02T07:18:20Z Nilby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T07:20:37Z malm joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:24:24Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:25:16Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T07:28:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-02T07:29:16Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T07:31:25Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:31:41Z miasuji joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:32:08Z caesarsalad quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T07:32:33Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T07:35:58Z miasuji joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:39:50Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:43:19Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-02T07:43:38Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:46:21Z beach: Of course "amateur" means a person performing some activity out of love for it, and "professional" means a person to performs an activity for money. My preference is clear. 2021-02-02T07:48:47Z no-defun-allowed: That is one interpretation, yes. Kay's interpretation was that "amateurs" don't do their homework (he then says they failed at OS design). My interpretation is that an industry has to be invented from hiring professionals to clean it up anyway. 2021-02-02T07:52:40Z no-defun-allowed: The previous utterances might disambiguate that: "The Internet was done so well that most people think of it as a natural resource like the Pacific Ocean, rather than something that was man-made. When was the last time a technology with a scale like that was so error-free? The Web, in comparison, is a joke. The Web was done by amateurs." 2021-02-02T07:52:50Z splittist: I still can't believe the industry has to give tests when hiring software 'engineers'. 2021-02-02T07:53:21Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-02-02T07:55:30Z beach: I think we need to find two different words for what is usually meant, like for instance "incompetent" and "competent". The correlation between those two and "amateur" vs "professional" is not clear at all. 2021-02-02T07:55:45Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. 2021-02-02T07:56:57Z beach: splittist: I can believe it, and I know at least one reason why. 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Am a bit reluctant to fix C bugs now and was wondering if doing that in lisp would be good idea... 2021-02-02T09:58:54Z no-defun-allowed: What's bitlbee? 2021-02-02T09:59:05Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T09:59:23Z beach: Oh, the things #lisp participants are supposed to know. 2021-02-02T09:59:28Z no-defun-allowed: The IRC<-other protocol gateway that lives at bitlbee.org? 2021-02-02T10:00:41Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T10:00:54Z polezaivsani: yeah, sort of bridge from to irc 2021-02-02T10:01:10Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-02T10:01:55Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T10:02:04Z polezaivsani: ... and back, as in a decent enough bridge :) 2021-02-02T10:02:07Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-02T10:03:15Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T10:06:18Z engblom used bitlbee for many years until all his friends moved over to facebook and he did not want to have anything to do with facebook. 2021-02-02T10:06:30Z engblom: I wonder what could be done so people would come back to IRC. 2021-02-02T10:07:09Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-02T10:11:36Z polezaivsani: engblom: the idea of brushing up email and irc gives me a good humoured chuckle :) 2021-02-02T10:12:47Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-02T10:12:50Z polezaivsani: imho, living my dream feels like an easier and more enjoyable thing 2021-02-02T10:12:51Z splittist: shinmera seemed to be doing stuff with bitlbee 2021-02-02T10:14:10Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-02T10:18:09Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-02-02T10:25:40Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T10:25:45Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T10:28:45Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-02T10:28:45Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-02T10:31:07Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-02T10:39:58Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-02T10:44:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-02T10:51:33Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-02T10:52:41Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-02T10:58:05Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T10:58:37Z themasterbuilder joined #lisp 2021-02-02T10:59:01Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-02T11:00:06Z vegansbane696 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-02T11:02:49Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T11:04:45Z jbgg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-02T11:05:01Z jbgg joined #lisp 2021-02-02T11:07:05Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T11:12:59Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-02T11:25:46Z schweers joined #lisp 2021-02-02T11:26:04Z easye quit (Quit: ogus) 2021-02-02T11:26:32Z easye joined #lisp 2021-02-02T11:28:54Z vegansbane696 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T11:40:02Z Stanley00 quit 2021-02-02T11:50:16Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-02T11:54:52Z VincentVega: Who do I contact to let me fork projects on gitlab.common-lisp.net? And did anyone have any success disabling endless prompts for 2f authentication? 2021-02-02T11:56:46Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-02T11:58:11Z j0nd0e quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T11:58:58Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-02-02T11:59:01Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T11:59:06Z phoe: VincentVega: #common-lisp.net - look for ehuelsmann there 2021-02-02T12:00:21Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-02T12:00:32Z VincentVega: phoe: thanks, I will try again there then... 2021-02-02T12:04:02Z mgxm quit (Quit: ....) 2021-02-02T12:06:21Z mgxm joined #lisp 2021-02-02T12:07:53Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-02T12:09:18Z lotuseater quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T12:11:51Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-02T12:13:58Z lotuseater joined #lisp 2021-02-02T12:15:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T12:20:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-02T12:28:43Z joast joined #lisp 2021-02-02T12:30:25Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-02-02T12:30:54Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-02T12:36:56Z themasterbuilder quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-02T13:03:02Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-02T13:03:38Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:08:19Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T13:10:52Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-02T13:11:22Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:11:45Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T13:13:48Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:17:42Z flip214 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:19:46Z noobineer joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:28:00Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:28:20Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T13:28:50Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:30:24Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:30:26Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:37:13Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:47:06Z caret joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:49:19Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:50:24Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:51:01Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-02T13:51:28Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:52:23Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-02T13:53:21Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-02T13:59:46Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:08:05Z xvzf joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:08:26Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-02T14:09:20Z xvzf: I'm to look at LISP concurrency implementations. For a starter, the simpler the better. Can you recommend me a research paper on that? I am interested in uniprocessor concurrency. 2021-02-02T14:10:05Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:10:17Z beach: What is meant by "uniprocessor concurrency"? 2021-02-02T14:11:18Z xvzf: In contrast to multiprocessor concurrency, where there are multiple processor cores that handle separate threads. So only one processor core and threads are running time-shared on that. 2021-02-02T14:11:26Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:11:59Z beach: I am puzzled... 2021-02-02T14:12:11Z beach: What aspect of such a thing are you interested in? 2021-02-02T14:12:47Z xvzf: What LISP primitives do you need to implement threads and message passing between them? 2021-02-02T14:13:07Z beach: OK, let's back up a bit. 2021-02-02T14:13:20Z mfiano: I think you were looking for ##lisp 2021-02-02T14:13:26Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-02T14:13:37Z beach: We haven't written the name of the language in all capitals for decades. 2021-02-02T14:14:01Z xvzf: Sorry about that. 2021-02-02T14:14:03Z beach: xvzf: Also, there is no such thing as message passing between threads. 2021-02-02T14:14:14Z mfiano: This channel is about Common Lisp. Do you mean "lisps" or "Common Lisp"? 2021-02-02T14:14:31Z beach: xvzf: You would pass objects between threads by storing them in a shared variable. 2021-02-02T14:14:41Z beach: ... or a shared slot of a shared object. 2021-02-02T14:15:19Z xvzf: In other types of functional programming it is possible to pass values on channels: Erlang, Concurrent ML. 2021-02-02T14:15:45Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T14:15:49Z mmmattyx joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:16:29Z beach: xvzf: Common Lisp threads run in a shared address space, and values in Common Lisp are (semantically speaking) references to heap-allocated objects. You would never copy an object when you pass it to some other thread. 2021-02-02T14:16:32Z mfiano: You still didn't answer if you are looking for an answer in terms of lisp or Common Lisp 2021-02-02T14:17:00Z xvzf: lisp is enough for me. The simpler the better. 2021-02-02T14:17:38Z beach: xvzf: And Common Lisp (nor Lisp in general) is not a functional programming language in that sense. Identity matters, so objects are never implicitly copied. 2021-02-02T14:18:12Z mfiano: Lisp is not a well defined term. You'd have to be specific as to which dialect, and that is off-topic here. Common Lisp does not have any notion of green threads, fibers, or any of that in the standard. 2021-02-02T14:18:29Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:18:41Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:21:35Z xvzf: Thanks for mentioning green threads and fibers, I did not know these terms 2021-02-02T14:22:11Z mfiano: I think you may find some knowledge down that path. Another useful term would be "continuations" 2021-02-02T14:23:34Z xvzf: I learned that while reading about SML/NJ's implementation of Concurrent ML. 2021-02-02T14:24:55Z madage quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-02T14:28:55Z pallas joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:32:28Z marcoxa joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:32:38Z marcoxa: Hi 2021-02-02T14:32:55Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:33:23Z phoe: hey 2021-02-02T14:37:04Z digikar joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:37:10Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:41:20Z digikar: Hi! I recently noted that trivial-types (https://github.com/m2ym/trivial-types) has been archived 2021-02-02T14:41:21Z digikar: While I maintained a fork for personal needs in recent months, I don't find myself experienced-enough and feel something important like trivial-types should be maintained by the community or at least someone more experienced, and wondered if sharplispers (or are there other groups?) could take over the maintenance... 2021-02-02T14:42:30Z phoe: a brief quicklisp-stats query tells me that trivial-types is the 24th most downloaded system 2021-02-02T14:42:58Z phoe: might be worth to fork it into sharplispers 2021-02-02T14:43:18Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:44:16Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T14:44:35Z polezaivsani quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T14:44:53Z polezaivsani joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:46:25Z polezaivsani quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T14:46:39Z polezaivsani joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:47:17Z pallas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-02T14:47:41Z skapata is now known as skp 2021-02-02T14:47:43Z pallas joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:50:47Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T14:51:15Z domovod joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:51:48Z xvzf quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-02T14:51:54Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-02T14:52:06Z digikar quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-02T14:52:14Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-02T14:52:36Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:53:27Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:53:54Z digikar joined #lisp 2021-02-02T14:55:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-02T14:56:24Z beach quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-02T14:57:16Z polezaivsani: I get some ill effects when using setq'ed symbols in the mode-line-format. If i defvar them, it works as expected. I'm reading the manual, but so far can't seem to find any major reason that could explain the difference. Hints welcome :) 2021-02-02T14:58:12Z phoe: polezaivsani: mode-line-format? is that emacs, or something else? 2021-02-02T14:58:57Z polezaivsani: phoe: yep, it's a variable describing how your mode line should get constructed 2021-02-02T14:59:07Z beach joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:00:36Z phoe: you might want to try #emacs then, this place is a Common Lisp lair 2021-02-02T15:00:53Z polezaivsani: ah, sorry, wrong buffer :) 2021-02-02T15:01:04Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-02T15:02:12Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:02:55Z nij: Can I snapshot the state of my repl, and go back to it (exactly it)? 2021-02-02T15:04:20Z phoe: you could do something like forking the process and calling save-lisp-and-die 2021-02-02T15:04:21Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:07:41Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:08:57Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-02T15:10:23Z nij: phoe: I'm aware of that. But why don't people do it more frequently? 2021-02-02T15:10:39Z nij: Won't it be useful? Or it just takes too much space to achieve? 2021-02-02T15:11:30Z phoe: nij: usually people don't do it often because of reproducibility 2021-02-02T15:12:01Z phoe: usually you can write down some commands that, when launched in a clean REPL, will get it to the same state as it is in right now 2021-02-02T15:12:12Z phoe: e.g. when loading systems, and such 2021-02-02T15:12:32Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:12:36Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T15:13:57Z nij: i see 2021-02-02T15:14:32Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-02T15:14:58Z Nilby: nij: I think since most use Emacs, in a separate address space, to be useful you would have to snapshot Emacs too and have it synchronized with CL, which I've never heard of anyone doing. 2021-02-02T15:15:43Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-02T15:15:50Z Nilby: When you have you whole development system inside the CL address space then it becomes more feasible. 2021-02-02T15:17:11Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:17:30Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T15:17:48Z nij: right 2021-02-02T15:17:49Z krid joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:18:18Z Nilby: For example Lispworks is typically used with all the development tools in the smae address space, so it can be saved and restored. 2021-02-02T15:18:24Z mbomba joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:19:45Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-02T15:24:30Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-02T15:27:19Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:28:44Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T15:29:19Z dbotton quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-02T15:29:23Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:30:45Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T15:34:17Z fanta1 quit (Quit: fanta1) 2021-02-02T15:34:25Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:40:07Z marcoxa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T15:50:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:58:00Z ey[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-02T15:58:48Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:00:32Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T16:02:01Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-02T16:02:06Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:09:18Z KREYREEEN joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:10:15Z KREYREEN quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T16:11:37Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:14:18Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T16:16:35Z liberliver joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:20:46Z liberliver1 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:20:58Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-02T16:20:59Z liberliver1 is now known as liberliver 2021-02-02T16:25:05Z v0|d joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:27:01Z digikar quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-02T16:27:40Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:28:25Z polezaivsani quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T16:28:54Z polezaivsani joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:29:24Z polezaivsani left #lisp 2021-02-02T16:29:32Z paulj joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:33:40Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-02T16:36:02Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T16:36:25Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:37:14Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T16:38:46Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T16:44:16Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:46:10Z monkey__ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:48:42Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-02T16:50:07Z gproto023 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:50:10Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:50:53Z gproto023 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-02T16:50:56Z pallas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T16:52:05Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:54:12Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-02T16:54:35Z jurov joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:57:28Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-02T16:58:09Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-02T17:02:30Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-02-02T17:03:18Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-02T17:03:30Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-02T17:08:38Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T17:08:47Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-02T17:12:30Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T17:15:35Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-02T17:21:19Z monkey__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T17:22:04Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-02-02T17:25:31Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-02T17:28:01Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-02-02T17:28:01Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-02T17:28:05Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-02T17:29:23Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-02T17:30:05Z VincentVega quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-02T17:30:30Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-02T17:33:42Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-02T17:34:41Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-02T17:37:52Z Major_Biscuit quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-02-02T17:41:54Z luis: Do hash-tables ever shrink? 2021-02-02T17:43:49Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-02T17:45:55Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-02T17:49:21Z jackdaniel: luis: what do you mean? 2021-02-02T17:49:46Z jackdaniel: remhash removes the element from the hash table, but you already know that ,p 2021-02-02T17:50:16Z luis: jackdaniel: CL's hash-table size grows as elements are added, according to the rehash threshold, but they don't shrink as elements are removed do they? 2021-02-02T17:52:12Z jackdaniel: spec is silent about shrinking the hash table, I don't think that it would be non-conforming if hash tables had shrank 2021-02-02T17:52:24Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T17:54:05Z luis: Agreed. In practice, though, they don't shrink do they? 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"Dynamic" as "condition selected during runtime", ie. PROGV instead of LET. 2021-02-02T19:17:25Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T19:18:00Z flip214: hmm, well, there can just be a general handler that looks at a list to match more fine-granular. 2021-02-02T19:21:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T19:22:14Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-02T19:22:45Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T19:30:53Z Bike: handler-case and -bind both accept general type specifiers, so you could use a satisfies type if you want 2021-02-02T19:31:03Z Bike: and then have it depend on a dynamic variable or whatever 2021-02-02T19:31:20Z flip214: well, T or CONDITION should be general enough, I guess 2021-02-02T19:31:23Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-02T19:31:25Z nmg joined #lisp 2021-02-02T19:31:44Z nmg_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-02T19:44:41Z v0|d quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T19:45:04Z Zeco quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T19:45:45Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T19:47:08Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-02T19:49:39Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-02T19:51:26Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T19:52:26Z noobineer joined #lisp 2021-02-02T19:53:27Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-02T19:53:45Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T19:54:10Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-02T19:55:23Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-02T19:56:16Z luis joined #lisp 2021-02-02T19:59:24Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-02T20:06:38Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-02T20:10:44Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-02T20:12:29Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-02T20:12:34Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-02T20:15:45Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-02T20:19:31Z skp quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-02T20:19:45Z noobineer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-02T20:23:45Z noobineer joined #lisp 2021-02-02T20:30:45Z noobineer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T20:31:55Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-02T20:36:49Z kpoeck quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2021-02-02T20:37:19Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-02T20:51:17Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T20:51:55Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T21:03:49Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-02T21:05:09Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-02T21:06:11Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-02-02T21:14:11Z noobineer joined #lisp 2021-02-02T21:18:47Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T21:19:38Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-02T21:19:52Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-02T21:20:53Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-02T21:21:29Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T21:22:18Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp 2021-02-02T21:26:44Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-02T21:29:59Z nij: Is there a way to inject a command into a running swank server from terminal by something like `emacsclient -e "(slime-inject-swank-server :port 1234 :code "(+ 1 1)")"`? 2021-02-02T21:30:57Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-02T21:35:05Z Bike: would you want that to print 2? 2021-02-02T21:35:15Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-02-02T21:38:15Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T21:40:19Z nij: Bike: no. Let's forget about that first. 2021-02-02T21:41:23Z nij: (I'm still struggling with (under a window manager) bind keys to send commands to REPL.. 2021-02-02T21:44:17Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T21:47:55Z Bike: i thought stumpwm has a shell thing to poke at a lisp from the terminal, but i can't find it now 2021-02-02T21:51:18Z nij: IIRC it's true. But I'm happy with my wm. I might need to take a leap to use it. 2021-02-02T21:51:24Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2021-02-02T21:51:40Z Bike: well i just meant looking at what the shell thing does 2021-02-02T21:51:41Z nij: I tried exwm for the past two days, and it didn't work as stable as xmonad. So I stepped back. 2021-02-02T21:51:56Z Bike: rather than changing your entire wm, which would be kind of a weird thing for me to suggest 2021-02-02T21:52:23Z nij: Oh. Maybe I misunderstood. 2021-02-02T21:52:42Z nij: Stumpwm is based on CL, so it's not hard to imagine that it can talk to a swank server quite natively. 2021-02-02T21:52:53Z Bike: i meant like, a terminal terminal 2021-02-02T21:53:12Z nij: Dang! That I didn't know! Will look into it, right now. 2021-02-02T21:53:30Z Bike: well i don't see it on the github unfortunately. hopefully i didn't imagine it 2021-02-02T21:53:45Z _death: you can write that emacs function.. slime-connect followed by slime-eval 2021-02-02T21:53:53Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-02T21:54:04Z nij: Bike, it's ok to have had nice dreams like that. So great that we cannot even tell if it is true or not. 2021-02-02T21:54:10Z Bike: https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm-contrib/blob/master/util/stumpish/stumpish maybe this was it 2021-02-02T21:54:11Z nij: JK.. sorry if it's a bad one. 2021-02-02T21:54:31Z nij: _death: That sounds terrific too! 2021-02-02T21:54:47Z Bike: oh, but it goes through xprop instead of swank or something 2021-02-02T21:54:48Z Bike: too bad 2021-02-02T21:56:54Z nij: Bike: m not familiar with xprop. What does it do here? 2021-02-02T21:57:04Z nij: The command isn't sent to swank at the end? 2021-02-02T21:57:23Z Bike: it's part of the x windows system. the script communicates with stumpwm that way instead of using swank at all. 2021-02-02T21:57:37Z nij: i see 2021-02-02T21:57:51Z Bike: so that doesn't work for you since you probably don't want to require that your lisp is also your wm 2021-02-02T21:59:46Z nij: I will try _death's suggestion then. 2021-02-02T22:06:35Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-02T22:06:47Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-02T22:07:40Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-02T22:12:33Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-02T22:13:06Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T22:21:05Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-02T22:21:38Z nij: _death: it sounds promising. Do you know more about what happended when sly-connect is called? 2021-02-02T22:21:53Z nij: While there are multiple servers, behavior seems weird. 2021-02-02T22:24:09Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T22:24:43Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-02T22:24:51Z _death: I don't use sly.. but you can read the code 2021-02-02T22:26:44Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T22:26:56Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-02T22:27:15Z _death: maybe an easy workaround would be to run emacs and not emacsclient 2021-02-02T22:27:29Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-02T22:31:13Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-02-02T22:39:36Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-02T22:40:15Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-02T22:45:34Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-02T22:47:21Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-02T22:50:30Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-02T22:51:54Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-02-02T22:53:37Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-02T22:54:31Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-02T22:55:06Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-02T22:56:41Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-02-02T22:59:51Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-02T23:00:24Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-02T23:03:08Z flatheap quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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I finally found out.. but only for sly. However, sly is a fork of swank, so I don't expect them to differ too much at lower levels. 2021-02-03T01:16:22Z nij: With multiple connected repls, we can read+select+check respectively by 2021-02-03T01:16:41Z nij: sly-net-processes, (sly-select-connection (nth 0 sly-net-processes)), (sly-current-connection) 2021-02-03T01:17:11Z nij: These are not exported elisp functions, but we can evaluated them manually. 2021-02-03T01:17:28Z nij: By using these, I can confidently switch to the process I want. 2021-02-03T01:18:09Z nij: And then the command that sends string (to be interpreted as commands) to the connected process is (sly-interactive-eval "(+ 1 1)"), for example. 2021-02-03T01:18:49Z nij: Phew~ finally I can control it directly from xmonad ~_~ 2021-02-03T01:21:21Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-03T01:31:14Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-03T01:32:25Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-02-03T01:34:34Z domovod joined #lisp 2021-02-03T01:38:09Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-03T01:38:25Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-02-03T01:44:12Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-03T01:49:51Z domovod quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-03T01:55:18Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-03T01:55:32Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-02-03T01:58:28Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-03T02:01:12Z zulu-inuoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T02:02:16Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-03T02:02:24Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-03T02:03:50Z nij` joined #lisp 2021-02-03T02:04:02Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-03T02:05:13Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T02:08:10Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-03T02:17:34Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T02:18:19Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-03T02:21:05Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T02:23:44Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T02:32:11Z wxie1 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T02:33:16Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T02:33:17Z wxie1 is now known as wxie 2021-02-03T02:33:27Z greeb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-03T02:44:25Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T02:47:55Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-03T02:48:06Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T02:48:06Z freshmaker666 quit (Changing host) 2021-02-03T02:48:06Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T02:51:10Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-03T02:58:05Z ptrkriz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T03:18:15Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-03T03:18:27Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-03T03:20:32Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp 2021-02-03T03:25:25Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-03T03:31:23Z housel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T03:31:34Z peasynt joined #lisp 2021-02-03T03:34:17Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-03T03:39:14Z peasynt quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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ralt joined #lisp 2021-02-03T08:51:31Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-03T08:52:33Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T08:56:05Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-03T08:59:55Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:00:08Z nij: Hello! I'm reading about Hygienic macros (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygienic_macro). 2021-02-03T09:01:10Z nij: It says that common lisp uses package to resolve the problem. Can I see what's the name of the package? What if the package conflicts with existing package? 2021-02-03T09:01:44Z nij: It also says that Scheme resolves this by impose hygienic macros. How exactly do they do that (or should this go to #scheme)? 2021-02-03T09:02:47Z no-defun-allowed: In Common Lisp, you usually use GENSYM to make names of variables that the client shouldn't be able to see. 2021-02-03T09:04:43Z beach: nij: That would be the package that was current when the macro was created. 2021-02-03T09:05:23Z nij: Yeah.. that's what I read from gigamonkey. 2021-02-03T09:05:24Z nij: Hmm.. so perhaps wikipedia is outdated or something. 2021-02-03T09:05:24Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T09:05:41Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:05:47Z beach: nij: No, two different problems. 2021-02-03T09:06:43Z beach: nij: What the article is referring to is a specific function called by the expansion of the macro. That function should then have a name that is typically in the same package as the name of the macro. 2021-02-03T09:07:49Z beach: nij: What no-defun-allowed is saying is that, if some lexical variable is needed by the expansion of the macro, but with a name that does not matter otherwise, then GENSYM is used. 2021-02-03T09:08:18Z beach: nij: All this is quite well explained in the book On Lisp by Paul Graham. 2021-02-03T09:08:41Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:09:10Z no-defun-allowed: The article mentions both GENSYM and using internal symbols. 2021-02-03T09:10:10Z beach: So it does. 2021-02-03T09:10:38Z no-defun-allowed: Those are in the "Temporary symbol creation" and "Packages" sections, respectively. Note that uninterned symbols, such as those made by GENSYM, have no package, so they can never conflict with other symbols. 2021-02-03T09:10:42Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-03T09:11:08Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T09:11:49Z beach: no-defun-allowed: That's not all there is to it though. If you use a symbol such as #:mumble in a macro, then it can conflict if macros are nested. 2021-02-03T09:12:29Z ravndal quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-03T09:12:30Z beach: ... it can conflict with itself in different nesting depths. 2021-02-03T09:12:51Z nij: I did notice that.. just had an impression that the package method was preferred. 2021-02-03T09:13:10Z beach: nij: They solve two different problems as I said. 2021-02-03T09:13:42Z no-defun-allowed: That is true, you will want to call GENSYM (or whatever symbol-creating function you choose) in the macro definition that is the result of another macroexpansion, to avoid conflicts. 2021-02-03T09:13:44Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:13:47Z beach: So it is important to use GENSYM so that different symbols are used for each (possibly nested) expansion. 2021-02-03T09:14:49Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T09:14:51Z ravndal joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:14:55Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:16:01Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:17:13Z nij: Oh I got temporarily disconnected.. now I see. Thank you beach. 2021-02-03T09:17:21Z beach: Sure. 2021-02-03T09:17:30Z nij: Thank you no-defun-allowed :) 2021-02-03T09:17:46Z nij: (I'm pretty sure you use defmacro all the time. Keep the hard work ;)) 2021-02-03T09:18:02Z no-defun-allowed: I tend to over-use GENSYM. 2021-02-03T09:18:14Z deltab quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-03T09:18:54Z beach: nij: Macros are not used nearly as often as functions (for instance), but when you need a macro, it is good that DEFMACRO is there. 2021-02-03T09:19:05Z no-defun-allowed: For example, there's a neat little "continuation" pattern, where one expands (with-foo () ...) to (flet ((continuation () ...)) (call-with-foo #'continuation)), in which case CONTINUATION can be an internal symbol. 2021-02-03T09:19:06Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-03T09:19:39Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL uses internal symbols (for example, in WITH-MUTEX-HELD), but I GENSYM anyway. 2021-02-03T09:19:56Z no-defun-allowed: (Er, SBCL calls it WITH-MUTEX.) 2021-02-03T09:21:01Z nij: uh oh oh it's just a bad joke toward no-defun-allowed's nickname 2021-02-03T09:21:21Z nij: sorry, but yeah I am not pretty sure when to use macros either 2021-02-03T09:23:07Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:28:36Z deltab joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:28:54Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T09:32:39Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T09:32:55Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:34:13Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-03T09:35:09Z mr-iznogud quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-03T09:36:36Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-03T09:42:03Z devon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T09:42:54Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-03T09:44:40Z tassleoff joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:45:16Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:48:01Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T09:49:48Z tgbugs joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:54:39Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T09:55:23Z aindilis[d] joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:55:24Z koo5[d] joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:55:24Z karlicoss[d] joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:55:24Z jacobpdq[d] joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:55:24Z CasAM[d] joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:55:24Z freeman42x[d] joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:55:24Z [d] joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:55:24Z dmiles[d] joined #lisp 2021-02-03T09:57:05Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T09:59:45Z Stargazer2005 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:04:50Z sveit quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-02-03T10:05:09Z sveit joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:11:05Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-03T10:16:49Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:16:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T10:17:44Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:18:05Z Zeco joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:22:17Z Stargazer2005 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-03T10:25:42Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:26:00Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:26:45Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T10:28:36Z Stargazer2005 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:29:32Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-03T10:29:39Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-03T10:29:48Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-03T10:32:57Z freeman42x[d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T10:32:57Z koo5[d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T10:32:57Z karlicoss[d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T10:32:57Z CasAM[d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T10:32:57Z dmiles[d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T10:32:57Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T10:32:57Z jacobpdq[d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T10:32:57Z aindilis[d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T10:34:49Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:36:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T10:37:00Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:38:01Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:38:44Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:38:54Z [d] joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:39:53Z no-defun-allowed: Well, you couldn't use macros to implement WITH-MUTEX, and requiring the client to use CALL-WITH-MUTEX wouldn't look great. 2021-02-03T10:40:53Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T10:41:10Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:41:42Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-03T10:44:16Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-03T10:46:48Z Stargazer2005 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-03T10:48:05Z Anonymous_ joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:53:57Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-03T10:54:55Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-03T10:55:18Z [d]: Well, you couldn't use macros to implement WITH-MUTEX, and requiring the client to use CALL-WITH-MUTEX wouldn't look great. 2021-02-03T10:55:18Z [d]: [edit]: 2021-02-03T10:59:26Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-03T11:00:06Z vegansbane696 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-03T11:01:54Z no-defun-allowed: I agree, no-defun-allowed#0000. 2021-02-03T11:11:16Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-03T11:11:33Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T11:12:54Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T11:22:22Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-02-03T11:23:51Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T11:24:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T11:26:59Z jmercouris: is there a way to signify to the compiler that a redefinition is intended so that no warnings are emitted? 2021-02-03T11:27:20Z jmercouris: so if I have (defun xyz), and then elsewhere I have (defun xyz) again, can I let the compiler know that is on purpose somehow? 2021-02-03T11:27:33Z jackdaniel: what would be a prupose of it? 2021-02-03T11:27:44Z jackdaniel: purpose* 2021-02-03T11:27:46Z jmercouris: I have two systems, one of them implements one version, another one version 2021-02-03T11:27:58Z jmercouris: sometimes I load system 1 and then system 2 2021-02-03T11:28:05Z jmercouris: system 1 has functionaly not existent in system 2, that system 2 requires 2021-02-03T11:28:15Z jmercouris: but system 2 modifies the behavior of system 1 by overriding some functions 2021-02-03T11:28:47Z vegansbane696 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T11:29:06Z jackdaniel: you may (setf (fdefinition 'your-function) (lambda …)) 2021-02-03T11:29:27Z jackdaniel: I think that this begs for a declaration, that your function is notinline (in system 1)\ 2021-02-03T11:29:36Z jmercouris: a declaration? 2021-02-03T11:29:45Z jmercouris: notinline? 2021-02-03T11:29:50Z jmercouris: is that a keyword I don't nkow? 2021-02-03T11:29:58Z jmercouris: s/nkow/know 2021-02-03T11:29:58Z jackdaniel: (proclaim (declaim (notinline xyz)) 2021-02-03T11:30:02Z jackdaniel: tfu 2021-02-03T11:30:05Z jackdaniel: without proclaim 2021-02-03T11:30:08Z jackdaniel: (declaim (notinline xyz)) 2021-02-03T11:30:16Z jmercouris: I didn't know that was something I could declaim 2021-02-03T11:30:17Z jmercouris: interesting 2021-02-03T11:30:54Z jackdaniel: otherwise your compiler may inline the function body, and then your clever redefinition won't work as expected 2021-02-03T11:31:03Z jmercouris: what about for methods though 2021-02-03T11:31:11Z jmercouris: will it still allow me to set the fdefinition? 2021-02-03T11:31:12Z jackdaniel: methods are not functions 2021-02-03T11:31:28Z jmercouris: ay yai yai 2021-02-03T11:31:59Z jmercouris: is there a "ignore warnings" form or something I can put at the top of my file? 2021-02-03T11:32:03Z jmercouris: to suppress warnings when loading it? 2021-02-03T11:32:34Z jackdaniel: there is sbcl muffle-warnings, write asdf method which wraps your file compilation in muffle-warnings 2021-02-03T11:34:17Z jmercouris: seems clisp has *supress-check-redefinition* 2021-02-03T11:34:33Z jmercouris: I wish there was a cross implementation way to do this... I don't want to add SBCL specific code 2021-02-03T11:35:46Z jackdaniel: a new standard! 2021-02-03T11:35:57Z jackdaniel: cl2021 2021-02-03T11:36:07Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T11:36:11Z jmercouris: ... 2021-02-03T11:36:25Z jmercouris: I'm happy enough with cl21 thank you very much 2021-02-03T11:36:33Z jmercouris: or what was it called again? 2021-02-03T11:36:35Z jmercouris: that thing by Eitaro 2021-02-03T11:38:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T11:38:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T11:40:02Z jmercouris: http://cl21.org/ 2021-02-03T11:40:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T11:40:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T11:41:27Z jmercouris: I would seriously consider cl21 if it had a compiler to CL 2021-02-03T11:41:38Z jmercouris: it has some good ideas in there I think 2021-02-03T11:45:38Z jackdaniel: then use it, it is written in common lisp 2021-02-03T11:45:45Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T11:46:01Z jackdaniel: (as in: you may simply load it, and you have access to common lisp compiler whatsoever) 2021-02-03T11:46:22Z jackdaniel: including all well known libraries like quicklisp, alexandria and asdf 2021-02-03T11:46:45Z jackdaniel: (if you like it that is - I don't) 2021-02-03T11:47:01Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-03T11:47:05Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T11:47:07Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-03T11:48:06Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T11:50:11Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-03T11:52:00Z jmercouris: you can't use cl21 code in cl, that's my problem with it 2021-02-03T11:52:06Z jmercouris: I mean you can 2021-02-03T11:52:10Z jmercouris: but not without cl21 itself 2021-02-03T11:52:16Z jmercouris: you can't compile cl21 to standalone cl if I'm not mistaken 2021-02-03T11:53:41Z jackdaniel: I don't understand 2021-02-03T11:55:14Z jackdaniel: just do (ql:quickload :cl21) (save-lisp-and-die) and you have a binary with cl21 2021-02-03T12:06:59Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-03T12:08:38Z themasterbuilder joined #lisp 2021-02-03T12:09:27Z vindarel joined #lisp 2021-02-03T12:12:05Z themasterbuilder quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-03T12:12:26Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T12:14:57Z Stanley00 quit 2021-02-03T12:18:48Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-03T12:30:09Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T12:30:25Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-03T12:31:11Z Zeco quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-02-03T12:32:17Z nij quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-03T12:33:39Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-03T12:35:05Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T12:38:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T12:38:45Z vindarel quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-03T12:39:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T12:40:10Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-03T12:43:40Z ebrasca: jmercouris: I don't understand the purpose of cl21 , parts of it are alredy done by cl libraries. 2021-02-03T12:43:52Z jmercouris: yeah, parts of it are done by CL Libraries 2021-02-03T12:44:03Z saganman joined #lisp 2021-02-03T12:44:09Z jmercouris: I just like the idea of a community effort to a new 'de facto' set of libraries to be included in a default distribution 2021-02-03T12:44:15Z jmercouris: also some of the reader macros are nice 2021-02-03T12:45:20Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T12:47:18Z ebrasca: I think it is better to make small libraries , then people chose what they like. 2021-02-03T12:47:20Z Gnuxie[m]: No cos the idea of 'de facto' libraries is a terrible one 2021-02-03T12:51:04Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-03T12:52:48Z _death: clhs muffle-warning 2021-02-03T12:52:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_muffle.htm 2021-02-03T12:54:40Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-03T12:56:09Z Iolo joined #lisp 2021-02-03T12:57:14Z flip214: did anyone manage to compress streams with CL-PDF? swank cross-reference tells me that I can activate the SALZA2 (LOAD-ZLIB) function, but *compress-streams* stays NIL 2021-02-03T12:57:27Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:11:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:12:19Z jmercouris: _death: I see, thank you 2021-02-03T13:17:21Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:17:53Z jmercouris: here's what I ended up with: http://dpaste.com/3BBXM8M9J 2021-02-03T13:17:55Z jmercouris: feels... strange 2021-02-03T13:18:34Z jmercouris: progn is unneeded.. 2021-02-03T13:19:56Z phoe: don't ignore the condition 2021-02-03T13:20:27Z phoe: why did you define ignore-warning though? you should be able to use muffle-warning directly 2021-02-03T13:21:32Z jmercouris: phoe: IDK the CLHS had an example like that, so I mindlessly copied 2021-02-03T13:22:18Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T13:25:22Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-03T13:27:50Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:30:43Z jmercouris: phoe: what is meant to be done with the condition there? 2021-02-03T13:31:04Z jmercouris: I assume of all people, you would know :-D 2021-02-03T13:31:08Z phoe: pass it to muffle-warning 2021-02-03T13:31:34Z phoe: use #'muffle-warning directly in the handler-bind and scrap your custom function 2021-02-03T13:33:27Z jmercouris: oh I see 2021-02-03T13:33:58Z jmercouris: I wonder why they did this indirection in the CLHS 2021-02-03T13:34:14Z jmercouris: wonder what they had in mind 2021-02-03T13:34:14Z phoe: CLHS examples contain a lot of silly things 2021-02-03T13:34:32Z beach: Yes, and non-conforming code. :) 2021-02-03T13:34:48Z beach: ... like top-level SETQs without prior definitions. 2021-02-03T13:35:59Z jmercouris: phoe: how much money would someone have to pay you to write the CLUS? 2021-02-03T13:36:04Z jackdaniel: I think that this gives a nice context of how people used pre-CL Lisp 2021-02-03T13:36:16Z jmercouris: just out of curiosity, like if there was a big coporation sponsoring you 2021-02-03T13:36:18Z jmercouris: how much would you charge 2021-02-03T13:37:52Z beach: jmercouris: My guess is that it is more a question of available time than of money. 2021-02-03T13:38:25Z caret joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:39:05Z lotuseater quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T13:39:48Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:40:06Z grobe0ba quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-03T13:40:14Z jmercouris: I don't see the difference 2021-02-03T13:41:37Z grobe0ba joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:42:24Z jmercouris: give someone enough money, and they will make the time 2021-02-03T13:42:41Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:42:47Z beach: Sure, but that might involve quitting the dayjob. 2021-02-03T13:43:59Z jmercouris: Yeah, that's true 2021-02-03T13:47:01Z beach: jmercouris: For instance, I could spend up to 1k€ per month for at least 6 months to get help with SICL-related projects, but there just aren't any people that are both available and qualified. 2021-02-03T13:47:33Z jmercouris: I bet if you had 300k€ per month, many more qualified people would suddenly be available 2021-02-03T13:48:02Z jmercouris: I think a lot of the problem with Common Lisp is the money available in the ecosystem, the problem is not technological 2021-02-03T13:48:20Z jmercouris: People learn JS not because it is a Oasis in a desert of bad languages, but because there is money to be made 2021-02-03T13:48:25Z jmercouris: why? industry movements, who knows why 2021-02-03T13:48:31Z beach: Yes, there is obviously some amount where people would quit their dayjobs. 2021-02-03T13:48:56Z jmercouris: the problem is and will continue to be a question of money 2021-02-03T13:48:57Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:49:11Z jmercouris: there are many more people who would like to use Lisp more often, but they cannot, because having fun programming doesn't always put food on the table 2021-02-03T13:49:16Z jmercouris: slingings bits of JS however, often does 2021-02-03T13:49:33Z beach: That's not all there is though. A lot of the work that we need done requires more basic knowledge than your typical Web job in industry. 2021-02-03T13:49:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T13:49:55Z jmercouris: sure, many things are pioneering efforts rather than implementing yet another CRUD site 2021-02-03T13:50:19Z jmercouris: however, there are plenty of highly qualified people working in reesearch that requires lots of background 2021-02-03T13:50:24Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:50:29Z aeth: You need charismatic projects. Then qualified people might be willing to take a pay cut (because if they're American they might be making well over $300,000 and you'll never have FAANG money). 2021-02-03T13:50:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:51:04Z jmercouris: Yes, you're right aeth 2021-02-03T13:51:13Z jmercouris: maybe Nyxt will change that 2021-02-03T13:51:33Z jmercouris: I don't anticipate having FAANG level money, but I do anticipate success 2021-02-03T13:52:21Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T13:52:48Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-03T13:52:57Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-02-03T13:52:59Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:53:17Z aeth: I wouldn't call a web browser "charismatic", but unfortunately Mozilla seems to be doing its best to implode recently, so maybe it will be one in the future. 2021-02-03T13:53:30Z aeth: (Especially mobile, wow I hate that redesign.) 2021-02-03T13:53:56Z jmercouris: well, your mistake is in thinking that Nyxt is a web browser 2021-02-03T13:54:03Z jmercouris: Nyxt is a lisp platform 2021-02-03T13:54:12Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-03T13:54:42Z jmercouris: anyways, what would be a 'charismatic' project? 2021-02-03T13:54:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T13:54:45Z jmercouris: Mezzano? 2021-02-03T13:55:48Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:56:00Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:56:03Z aeth: Gamedev is probably the perennial software field where people take pay cuts to join. The rest are fairly opportunistic, like e.g. a social network in the past. Maybe VR or AR in the near future? 2021-02-03T13:56:31Z jmercouris: I don't find game development particularly inspiring or technologically interesting 2021-02-03T13:56:41Z aeth: Chat seems to be a fairly strong motivator, too... 2021-02-03T13:56:53Z aeth: Never would've motivated me since we have IRC, of course. 2021-02-03T13:57:37Z aeth: Maybe self-driving cars were an example of this in the past? They have the money now, though. 2021-02-03T13:58:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T13:58:22Z Xach: I think I may get to use ldiff in real code today! 2021-02-03T13:58:44Z norserob quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-03T13:58:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:59:04Z aeth: jmercouris: I've probably missed a huge amount of categories just because they've always seemed fairly boring to me. e.g. maybe NoSQL was like this in the past. As in, just plain boring database stuff with a PR spin. 2021-02-03T13:59:33Z jmercouris: well, one mans boredom is another man's fascination 2021-02-03T13:59:40Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-03T13:59:54Z jmercouris: I'm sure most people here find browsers relatively boring 2021-02-03T14:01:32Z aeth: Yeah. It's probably hard to tell which fields had lots of people willing to take pay cuts in over the years to work in. Probably only VCs have that complete data set. 2021-02-03T14:01:37Z beach: Maybe a killer app rather than an OS would be "charismatic". Imagine something like MuseScore but written in Common Lisp instead. 2021-02-03T14:01:41Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:02:05Z beach: I mean, an OS is what we need, but it would be hard to make people accept and use it. 2021-02-03T14:02:48Z norserob joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:04:06Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:04:20Z beach: It is hard for me to understand why anyone would write such a thing in C++. 2021-02-03T14:04:34Z jmercouris: Nyxt is supposed to be the killer App 2021-02-03T14:04:41Z jmercouris: Mezzano is supposed to be the OS :-D 2021-02-03T14:04:47Z _death: Xach: ldiff/member idiom is cool 2021-02-03T14:04:58Z jmercouris: I'll report back in 10 years if I've made headway or not... 2021-02-03T14:05:23Z Xach: _death: i feel like i don't use ldiff enough, so it makes me smile when i come up with a new, non-contrived reason to use it. 2021-02-03T14:05:44Z Xach: now if only i could find reasons to use nreconc or revappend more 2021-02-03T14:06:00Z beach: jmercouris: I was under the impression that large parts of Nyxt are written in C or C++. Not so? 2021-02-03T14:06:08Z jmercouris: Nothing in Nyxt is written in C 2021-02-03T14:06:21Z jmercouris: we just use foreign libraries 2021-02-03T14:06:30Z _death: Xach: another use could be (do* ((right list (rest right)) (left nil (ldiff list right))) ((null right)) ...) 2021-02-03T14:06:33Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-03T14:06:36Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-03T14:06:42Z beach: jmercouris: But those are written in C or C++, right? 2021-02-03T14:06:49Z jmercouris: that's correct, but they are not part of Nyxt 2021-02-03T14:07:21Z beach: Still, I wouldn't be able to run Nyxt on an OS without a C compiler. 2021-02-03T14:07:30Z jmercouris: sure, luckily C code can compile on Mezzano 2021-02-03T14:07:39Z jmercouris: and we will also make a renderer at some point that we can afford to 2021-02-03T14:07:50Z jmercouris: s/that/when 2021-02-03T14:08:48Z beach: Yeah, I wasn't thinking of Mezzano right then. 2021-02-03T14:10:56Z _death: Xach: looks like I used ldiff twice in aoc2020.. I was certain that I have some revappend uses somewhere as well, but can't find'em right now 2021-02-03T14:20:27Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-03T14:20:43Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:22:44Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-03T14:23:16Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T14:23:46Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T14:25:06Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:25:15Z Stargazer2005 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:26:10Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:26:35Z Anonymous_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T14:31:41Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-03T14:34:28Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:37:32Z red-dot joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:38:06Z red-dot: Hello everyone. 2021-02-03T14:38:25Z red-dot: anyone on Windows using UIOP:run-program will a full path? 2021-02-03T14:38:36Z red-dot: e.g. (uiop:run-program "C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Google\\Chrome\\Application\\chrome.exe")? 2021-02-03T14:38:42Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-03T14:39:00Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:39:05Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T14:39:31Z red-dot: It doesn't seem like uiop:run-program works with absolute paths, at least not with SBCL and Windows. I thought this was working in the past... 2021-02-03T14:40:02Z pfdietz: The CLHS has some thing that are in direct conflict with each other.   complex types, I'm looking at you. 2021-02-03T14:43:34Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:45:59Z Stargazer2005 quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-03T14:46:25Z KeyboardWorrier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-03T14:46:35Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-03T14:46:45Z Bike: oh, are there parts that disagree about how they work with upgrading? 2021-02-03T14:46:58Z Bike: yyyyyes. super 2021-02-03T14:47:06Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:47:15Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:48:30Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:49:06Z nij: After getting stumpwm from ql:quickload, can I make install using asdf, but not the GNU make tools as it's stated in the readme? https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm 2021-02-03T14:49:35Z Bike: i don't think asdf really does installations 2021-02-03T14:50:27Z jmercouris: you COULD have your asd file do the installation for you, but it is not part of ASDF 2021-02-03T14:51:10Z nij: What then is the make tools used commonly in CL community? GNU make tools? 2021-02-03T14:51:25Z jmercouris: typically just a makefile, yes 2021-02-03T14:51:40Z jmercouris: we don't need it for much, mostly just moving around an executable 2021-02-03T14:51:58Z jmercouris: possibly checking for dependencies, simplifying the compilation process for non lisp users 2021-02-03T14:55:30Z nij: if the users have sbcl and quicklisp installed, the compilation process would be easier? 2021-02-03T14:55:42Z jmercouris: well, yeah 2021-02-03T14:55:57Z jmercouris: how else could they compile CL without CL? 2021-02-03T14:56:39Z nij: First install CL for them as a dependency. 2021-02-03T14:57:31Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-03T14:57:52Z nij: Oh I see. At that stage you better use Make. 2021-02-03T14:59:05Z jmercouris: users do not need to compile your software for you to distribute it 2021-02-03T14:59:12Z jmercouris: you can distribute lisp images of your software compiled on similar machiens 2021-02-03T14:59:16Z jmercouris: s/machiens/machines 2021-02-03T14:59:44Z liberliver1 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:01:04Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:01:58Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T15:01:58Z liberliver1 is now known as liberliver 2021-02-03T15:03:21Z Stargazer2005 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:04:10Z _death: red-dot: try passing (list (uiop:native-namestring "C:\\...")) .. if a string is passed, uiop:run-program treats it as a "command", which I guess won't do with spaces and no quotes or something similar 2021-02-03T15:05:15Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:06:36Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T15:06:36Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-03T15:10:27Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T15:11:10Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T15:12:55Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:16:57Z _oldtopman joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:17:44Z lansiir quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-03T15:19:00Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-03T15:21:40Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-03T15:21:41Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:21:51Z Anonymous_ joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:22:48Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-03T15:26:12Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:26:16Z thatpythonboy: hi 2021-02-03T15:26:33Z beach: Hello thatpythonboy. 2021-02-03T15:27:02Z thatpythonboy: if i read roots of lisp paper, will i know lisp-like qualities such as read/eval/macros 2021-02-03T15:27:18Z thatpythonboy: i prefer rootsoflisp as i find gigamonkeys too big 2021-02-03T15:27:36Z beach: I don't know that paper. Do you have a link? 2021-02-03T15:27:59Z thatpythonboy: www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html 2021-02-03T15:28:00Z beach: But I would say "no" because many of the current features were not in there from the beginning. 2021-02-03T15:29:48Z beach: Looking at it briefly, I am now convinced that the answer is "no". 2021-02-03T15:30:10Z beach: Well, you will know some. 2021-02-03T15:30:20Z beach: Like EVAL is explained. 2021-02-03T15:31:03Z thatpythonboy: then what extra gigamonkeys has 2021-02-03T15:31:29Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:31:40Z beach: Macros, classes, generic functions, ... 2021-02-03T15:31:45Z alandipert: writing your own small lisp can be very informative and https://norvig.com/lispy.html is a great guide (using python) 2021-02-03T15:31:53Z thatpythonboy: i know classes,functions from python 2021-02-03T15:32:09Z beach: thatpythonboy: No, they are very different in Common Lisp. 2021-02-03T15:32:11Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-03T15:32:19Z thatpythonboy: i am talking about concepts not OOP/paradigms 2021-02-03T15:32:31Z thatpythonboy: i read functions chapter it's the same 2021-02-03T15:32:44Z thatpythonboy: classes are different 2021-02-03T15:32:46Z beach: I said "generic functions". They are unique to Common Lisp. 2021-02-03T15:33:02Z thatpythonboy: what do you mean generic, a function is a function 2021-02-03T15:33:09Z phoe: thatpythonboy: not in CL 2021-02-03T15:33:12Z ecraven: thatpythonboy: it is indeed not 2021-02-03T15:33:16Z thatpythonboy: this is mysterious language 2021-02-03T15:33:18Z phoe: a generic function is a term in Common Lisp 2021-02-03T15:33:27Z phoe: read the proper PCL chapter to figure it out! 2021-02-03T15:33:32Z ecraven: it's like a virtual function on steroids 2021-02-03T15:33:41Z phoe: a generic function is something that has methods. in CL, methods don't belong to classes. 2021-02-03T15:33:54Z beach: thatpythonboy: Clearly, if you expect Common Lisp to be just like the languages you know, there is nothing to learn. 2021-02-03T15:34:27Z ecraven: hm.. what does c++ call the implementations of a virtual function? just "implementations"? 2021-02-03T15:34:46Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:34:58Z phoe: overrides or something 2021-02-03T15:35:17Z ecraven: they should just have used proper names :P 2021-02-03T15:35:29Z thatpythonboy: i read functions chapter it didn't seem different than python 2021-02-03T15:35:38Z thatpythonboy: which chapter then 2021-02-03T15:35:45Z phoe: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html 2021-02-03T15:35:50Z jdz: beach: Julia also has generic functions (inspired by CL, as far as I know). 2021-02-03T15:36:06Z beach: jdz: I see. Thanks! 2021-02-03T15:36:30Z thatpythonboy: but julia functions don't have methods 2021-02-03T15:37:11Z ecraven: thatpythonboy: first hit on google, https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/functions/, says "f (generic function with 1 method)" 2021-02-03T15:37:16Z ecraven: so it seems to use *exactly* the same names for things 2021-02-03T15:38:54Z _death: there's also dylan, goo, etc. but they all miss some CLOS features (and may have features not in CLOS, though we also have a good MOP) 2021-02-03T15:39:32Z beach forgot about Dylan. 2021-02-03T15:39:45Z tgbugs joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:40:00Z thatpythonboy: that is just a function that julia calls a method due to multiple dispatch 2021-02-03T15:42:02Z phoe: using julia nomenclature though, julia's GFs *do* have methods 2021-02-03T15:42:07Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-03T15:42:11Z phoe: so do CL generic functions 2021-02-03T15:42:17Z ecraven: beach: I wish prefix-dylan would have taken off 2021-02-03T15:42:26Z _death: thatpythonboy: a generic function contains a bunch of methods.. when it's called, it decides which methods to call 2021-02-03T15:42:30Z phoe: and CL's methods are *not* "just" functions due to the presence of method combinations. 2021-02-03T15:42:52Z ecraven: phoe: is there *any* other language or non-CL-Lisp that has method combinations? 2021-02-03T15:42:55Z beach: ecraven: I see what you mean. RScheme from U Texas is essentially that. 2021-02-03T15:42:58Z phoe: ecraven: I am not aware of one 2021-02-03T15:43:25Z ecraven: the more I try to implement these things myself in different Schemes, the more I wonder how any of this can be even halfway performant in CL... you guys (and all before you) really do great work! 2021-02-03T15:43:50Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T15:44:01Z beach: ecraven: What are "these things" that you are referring to? 2021-02-03T15:44:29Z ecraven: making method dispatch fast 2021-02-03T15:44:33Z thatpythonboy: peter norvig shows a lisp interpreter in python, is there one in lisp itself? 2021-02-03T15:44:42Z phoe: thatpythonboy: yes, roots of lisp shows one 2021-02-03T15:44:43Z ecraven: I tried implementing a generic predicate dispatch in chez scheme (which is really fast by itself) 2021-02-03T15:44:44Z _death: thatpythonboy: PCL is a book, whereas roots of lisp is a short article.. you say PCL is too big, but you're also asking whether to read a short article, which is strange 2021-02-03T15:44:46Z ecraven: it's really slow :D 2021-02-03T15:44:46Z thatpythonboy: rootsoflisp says the interpreter is incomplete 2021-02-03T15:44:47Z beach: ecraven: I see. I suppose you read my paper about that, yes? 2021-02-03T15:44:57Z ecraven: beach: I read all of your and other people's papers 2021-02-03T15:45:03Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2021-02-03T15:45:05Z beach: Wow! 2021-02-03T15:45:09Z ecraven: I just need a few more years of time to implement things ;) 2021-02-03T15:45:15Z beach: Heh. 2021-02-03T15:45:23Z ecraven: (sorry, "on that subject", not "all of your papers in general") 2021-02-03T15:45:25Z phoe: thatpythonboy: if you mean "just" a lisp, then https://github.com/kanaka/mal has a lot of those 2021-02-03T15:45:31Z phoe: that's not going to be CL though. 2021-02-03T15:45:32Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:45:34Z ecraven: maybe 2021-02-03T15:45:49Z phoe: though there is an implementation of MAL in Common Lisp at https://github.com/kanaka/mal/tree/master/impls/common-lisp 2021-02-03T15:45:52Z thatpythonboy: just need a basic interpreter not big CL mess 2021-02-03T15:46:04Z ecraven: I should just give up and use CL already... :D I've been trying to implement halfway decent SLIME support in various Schemes, and none of them are even halfway as introspectable as the worst CL implementation 2021-02-03T15:46:05Z phoe: then that is going to work well 2021-02-03T15:46:28Z _death: thatpythonboy: maybe you should go to a non-CL channel then 2021-02-03T15:46:46Z ecraven: thatpythonboy: #lisp is actually 2021-02-03T15:46:55Z ecraven: #common-lisp 2021-02-03T15:46:59Z beach: thatpythonboy: It is not a great idea to call the topic of this channel a "mess". At least not if you want help. 2021-02-03T15:47:35Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2021-02-03T15:48:38Z alandipert: Bless This Mess <3 2021-02-03T15:49:52Z Stargazer2005 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-03T15:54:36Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:55:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T15:55:44Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-03T16:01:33Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-03T16:04:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T16:05:02Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:09:26Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T16:10:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:14:56Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T16:16:59Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:18:31Z dbotton quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-03T16:21:29Z beach: Strange one this "thatpythonboy" person. Maybe just a result of being uncomfortable and/or having some problems with English. 2021-02-03T16:22:20Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:23:18Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-03T16:24:07Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:24:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:24:48Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T16:26:18Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:26:48Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-03T16:28:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:32:14Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T16:35:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-03T16:36:44Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:38:23Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:44:25Z catt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T16:46:11Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T16:46:19Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T16:46:31Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:47:33Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:48:15Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:49:17Z jmercouris: format directive for a percentage? 2021-02-03T16:51:36Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:51:41Z jmercouris: well, this is what I have resorted to: (format t "~0d%" (* 100 .01)) 2021-02-03T16:51:43Z jmercouris: ... :'( 2021-02-03T16:51:48Z jmercouris: ay yai yai 2021-02-03T16:53:24Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T16:53:32Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-03T16:55:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:55:51Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-03T16:56:38Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-03T16:57:25Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:00:31Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:08:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T17:09:15Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:11:46Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:14:03Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-03T17:14:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T17:15:25Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:15:30Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:15:32Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:16:11Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:16:31Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:18:39Z madage quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-03T17:18:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T17:19:02Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:20:52Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T17:21:26Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:22:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:22:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T17:23:57Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:26:18Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-03T17:28:31Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:33:24Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-03T17:34:11Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T17:34:17Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:36:55Z jasom: jmercouris: if you need to do it a lot you can make your own printer function and use ~/ 2021-02-03T17:38:00Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T17:39:22Z jmercouris: I see 2021-02-03T17:39:38Z jmercouris: jasom: don't know how to do that, maybe I will learn it at some point 2021-02-03T17:39:41Z jasom: jmercouris: it comes at a cost of either polluting cl-user or having really long names 2021-02-03T17:42:38Z jasom: jmercouris: https://github.com/jasom/jtk/blob/master/ltk.lisp#L1089 <- example here. I like it very much for escaping because (format s "~A ~A ~A" x (escape y) z) is much harder to tell is correct than (format s "~A ~/ltk:esc/ ~A" x y z) (assuming the item in the 2nd position must be escaped and 1st and 3rd must not) 2021-02-03T17:43:28Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-03T17:43:43Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T17:45:19Z jasom: totally OT, but the "correct" algorithm for escaping strings in TCL is *really* non-obvious, exposed in LTK by the fact that when I added this one, there were already 2 other escaping functions, one of which was super-linear in time and the other one of which was wrong. 2021-02-03T17:45:47Z jackdaniel: 3 is a reasonable approximation of pi 2021-02-03T17:45:51Z jackdaniel: and it is a fixnum! :) 2021-02-03T17:46:37Z _death: it's also a good approximation of 2 2021-02-03T17:46:47Z jackdaniel: true that 2021-02-03T17:46:58Z jasom: it's a pretty darn good approximation of 0 in a lot of domains as well 2021-02-03T17:47:39Z jackdaniel: (zerop pi) ;-> T 2021-02-03T17:47:56Z charles`: on the cosmological scale, everything is nearby 2021-02-03T17:48:01Z jmercouris: (zerop pi) -> nil 2021-02-03T17:48:10Z jmercouris: not sure which version of CL you are using, must be a bug in ECL 2021-02-03T17:49:36Z jasom: (zerop (* 10 (round pi 10))) ;-> T 2021-02-03T17:50:13Z _death: jmercouris: ~D is for printing integers 2021-02-03T17:50:20Z jmercouris: yes, sorry 2021-02-03T17:52:08Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-03T17:52:46Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-03T17:56:00Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T17:56:47Z tgbugs joined #lisp 2021-02-03T18:00:16Z jmercouris: do (print element))(defparameter q '((a b c) (1 2 3))) 2021-02-03T18:00:22Z jmercouris: sorry, ignore that, starting over 2021-02-03T18:00:26Z jmercouris: (defparameter q '((a b c) (1 2 3))) 2021-02-03T18:00:34Z jmercouris: now I want to: (loop for element in q with a = (first element) do (print a)) 2021-02-03T18:00:46Z jmercouris: the loop would print "a" and then "1" 2021-02-03T18:00:57Z jmercouris: possible? or do I need a let binding within the do? 2021-02-03T18:00:59Z jackdaniel: replace with with for 2021-02-03T18:01:03Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-03T18:01:04Z jmercouris: oh, thank you 2021-02-03T18:01:07Z jackdaniel: or replace replace with for 2021-02-03T18:01:07Z jmercouris: I confuse those 2021-02-03T18:01:13Z jackdaniel: eventually replace with for for 2021-02-03T18:01:17Z jmercouris: ??? 2021-02-03T18:01:25Z jmercouris: I'm now completely lost replace with for for? 2021-02-03T18:01:43Z jackdaniel: I was making a joke with the original "with with" that was /not/ a typo 2021-02-03T18:01:45Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T18:01:49Z jmercouris: I see 2021-02-03T18:01:51Z jmercouris: 11 2021-02-03T18:02:33Z _death: use let 2021-02-03T18:02:53Z jmercouris: _death: 2021-02-03T18:02:54Z jmercouris: why? 2021-02-03T18:03:06Z _death: you can also use FOR 2021-02-03T18:03:22Z jackdaniel: (loop for (i) in '((a b c) (1 2 3)) do (print i)) 2021-02-03T18:03:38Z jackdaniel: so many ways 2021-02-03T18:03:55Z jackdaniel: (progn (print 'a) (print 1)) 2021-02-03T18:04:31Z _death: if you get confused, others may find it confusing as well.. so if you're in doubt, just use the more primitive operators 2021-02-03T18:05:46Z jackdaniel: _death: this isn't a good argument for standard operators -- one would get confused why are you not using a designed operator to achieve something 2021-02-03T18:06:44Z _death: jackdaniel: well, here we're discussing LOOP.. there are many pitfalls with LOOP so I don't mind if I see someone using let there instead of other ways 2021-02-03T18:07:21Z jackdaniel: OK, that position could be defendable in context of loop, I've read it as a general advice 2021-02-03T18:08:22Z _death: jackdaniel: I think it may also stand as a general advice, but I'm not sure I want to defend that position 2021-02-03T18:08:34Z jmercouris: I have grown to love loop 2021-02-03T18:08:38Z jmercouris: maybe in time I will love format too 2021-02-03T18:08:42Z jmercouris: probably not for a long time 2021-02-03T18:11:23Z _death: jackdaniel: basically I'd rather read transparent, if a bit eccentric, code than confused code ;) 2021-02-03T18:11:48Z root____2 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T18:11:51Z jackdaniel: me too. but I'd rather see defclass instead of bunch of interwingled closures 2021-02-03T18:11:54Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-03T18:12:20Z jmercouris: I'm personally a master of obfuscating the purpose of my code via OO paradigms 2021-02-03T18:12:30Z jmercouris: I'm just joking of course 2021-02-03T18:13:28Z jackdaniel: interwingled is of course a mashup of intertwined and intermingled 2021-02-03T18:14:01Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-03T18:17:08Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-03T18:20:08Z Nilby: give in and love format https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2272#2272 2021-02-03T18:20:55Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T18:25:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T18:25:41Z theothornhill: Nilby: that almost looks like rust :) 2021-02-03T18:27:02Z Nilby *gasps* 2021-02-03T18:29:36Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T18:33:13Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-02-03T18:34:19Z _death: the last one is relevant to jmercouris's problem.. (format t "~{~1{~A~}~}" q) 2021-02-03T18:35:02Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-03T18:37:41Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T18:37:49Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-03T18:40:46Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T18:40:57Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T18:43:37Z catt joined #lisp 2021-02-03T18:47:04Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-03T18:50:10Z geospeck joined #lisp 2021-02-03T18:55:11Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:02:18Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:04:21Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-03T19:04:28Z skapate is now known as skapata 2021-02-03T19:16:08Z geospeck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T19:18:43Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-03T19:18:45Z lowryder_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T19:20:40Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:20:41Z alfred188 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:20:59Z lowryder_ joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:21:40Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T19:35:54Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:36:35Z root____2 is now known as MrFantastik 2021-02-03T19:37:28Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-03T19:41:01Z jasom: jmercouris: only thing to remember with the loop FOR clause is that it *sets* the value, it does not make a new binding for each iteration 2021-02-03T19:41:46Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:42:10Z jasom: (mapcar #'funcall (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect (lambda () i))) ;-> (11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11) 2021-02-03T19:42:42Z jasom: compare to (mapcar #'funcall (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect (let ((i i)) (lambda () i)))) 2021-02-03T19:42:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T19:43:14Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-03T19:45:26Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:46:07Z Josh_2: Hey, I am pretty sure I read a paper or blog post by someone in here regarding random testing? 2021-02-03T19:46:28Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:46:29Z Xach: Josh_2: pfdietz has done a lot of work on the topic but i don't know of a paper or blog post about it by him. 2021-02-03T19:47:10Z Josh_2: I think thats the fella 2021-02-03T19:48:53Z iskander- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T19:50:31Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:51:18Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:51:59Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:53:18Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T19:55:08Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-03T19:57:47Z xificurC joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:58:43Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T19:59:01Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T19:59:13Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-02-03T20:00:45Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T20:01:15Z mpontillo_ is now known as mpontillo 2021-02-03T20:03:26Z xificurC: is it possible to create an object that for all intents and purposes behaves like but also has other capabilities? = anything, e.g. string or list. E.g. I have a string holding a preprocessor template and depending on some configuration I later have to decide how to export it (escaped or not). I thought attaching the fact that it is a 2021-02-03T20:03:26Z xificurC: template as metadata would be a nice solution, since the exporter can get other, non-templaty strings as well. 2021-02-03T20:04:10Z xificurC: wrapping it in a special object deprives the rest of the code accessing that string as a string, which it really is 2021-02-03T20:05:21Z Bike: sounds like subclassing. you can't subclass string or list, though. 2021-02-03T20:05:25Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-03T20:07:31Z Nilby: I made my own string class, but it's a lot of work, since it's below the "bolted on". 2021-02-03T20:07:50Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-03T20:08:14Z cods joined #lisp 2021-02-03T20:08:50Z xificurC: Bike you're right, it is subclassing basically. Thanks for the answers. I won't push against a wall then 2021-02-03T20:09:18Z xificurC: I thought it might be simple or that mop might allow it 2021-02-03T20:10:09Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-03T20:12:45Z tgbugs joined #lisp 2021-02-03T20:16:11Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-03T20:17:38Z anticrisis: Should this print without the SBCL version banner? echo '(write-line "Hello world")' | sbcl --no-sysinit --no-userinit --noprint --noinform 2021-02-03T20:18:56Z Bike: yeah so that ties in with the sort of confusing way sbcl command line options work 2021-02-03T20:19:14Z Bike: you need to specify --noinform before before the other options 2021-02-03T20:20:03Z Bike: because, when you run sbcl, you run the sbcl _runtime_, which loads the sbcl image which starts the sbcl _toplevel_, and then you can put options the user program can get at 2021-02-03T20:20:16Z Bike: --noinform is an option for the runtime while the others are options for the toplevel 2021-02-03T20:20:46Z Josh_2: is the :report keyword (when defining conditions) basically a shortcut for print-object 2021-02-03T20:21:22Z Bike: so, when you put --no-sysinit first, it thinks you haven't specified any runtime options, and --noinform is not a toplevel option so it's treated as a user option (I think) 2021-02-03T20:21:48Z Bike: Josh_2: yes. the clhs page gives the particular equivalence 2021-02-03T20:22:15Z anticrisis: Oh wow, and I was reading the man page 2021-02-03T20:22:46Z anticrisis: Nice, thank you 2021-02-03T20:22:46Z Bike: it's in the man page, though it's not a super detailed explanation 2021-02-03T20:23:30Z anticrisis: it might be nice to add to sbcl --help 2021-02-03T20:24:01Z Bike: i suppose the "Usage:" line in sbcl --help is supposed to indicate it 2021-02-03T20:24:06Z Bike: but --help is necessarily pretty brief 2021-02-03T20:24:18Z Bike: doesn't even mention noinform, huh 2021-02-03T20:24:23Z anticrisis: right :) 2021-02-03T20:25:09Z anticrisis: I just wanted to time it against the equivalent `node -e` to look at startup time 2021-02-03T20:25:09Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T20:25:42Z _death: xificurC: you could keep a hash-table associating that object with whatever you want.. you can have it weakly keyed 2021-02-03T20:25:46Z xificurC: startup time compared to node is really unfair 2021-02-03T20:26:03Z anticrisis: unfair to node? 2021-02-03T20:26:27Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-03T20:26:29Z xificurC: yes, it's like comparing the fattest kid from the school to, well, any other kid 2021-02-03T20:26:31Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-03T20:26:53Z xificurC: _death then it's a hash table, not a string anymore 2021-02-03T20:27:30Z anticrisis: I like to tease my node friend now and then 2021-02-03T20:27:30Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T20:27:42Z White_Flame: your object is a key to the metadata table, instead of the metadata being on the object itself 2021-02-03T20:27:52Z _death: xificurC: no, you just use the hash-table to associate information with the object.. you pass the string as-is, and when you need to make a decision based on that information you check the hash-table.. but it could get tricky with mutable objects 2021-02-03T20:29:52Z _death: xificurC: here's an example https://github.com/death/dbus/blob/master/utils.lisp#L254 2021-02-03T20:29:55Z White_Flame: of course, the object should be a heap object, too. if you have a fixnum or character or whatever, you're not going to be identifying that specific instance of that value, because it's not reified 2021-02-03T20:30:52Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T20:31:05Z _death: White_Flame: right 2021-02-03T20:31:43Z xificurC: ah, that makes sense and might be a viable alternative. Thanks _death and White_Flame 2021-02-03T20:33:52Z White_Flame: it's better than making everything inherit from my-object which piles on all the custom doodads you want on your stuff :-P 2021-02-03T20:34:14Z White_Flame: which is what you tend to end up with many other languages 2021-02-03T20:40:42Z xificurC: White_Flame I'd just put a hash-table in for storing metadata. It's a bit more convenient than having the metadata spread out in multiple hash tables, but it does the job 2021-02-03T20:42:01Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-03T20:44:11Z _death: you could have an object-plist (generalizing symbol-plist) accessor, sure.. with the caveats mentioned 2021-02-03T20:46:28Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-03T20:50:22Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T20:53:40Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-03T20:56:42Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-03T21:01:43Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-03T21:03:56Z [d] joined #lisp 2021-02-03T21:06:28Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-03T21:07:35Z xificurC quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-03T21:07:36Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-03T21:08:24Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T21:13:53Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-03T21:16:06Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T21:17:25Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T21:20:24Z red-dot joined #lisp 2021-02-03T21:24:21Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver) 2021-02-03T21:24:31Z liberliver1 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T21:25:31Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-03T21:26:23Z hnOsmium0001 left #lisp 2021-02-03T21:29:13Z liberliver1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-03T21:30:52Z Josh_2: If you kill a thread with destroy-thread I assume that (unwind-protect ..) doesn't matter? 2021-02-03T21:33:34Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-03T21:35:05Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T21:35:59Z no-defun-allowed: It will not unwind, no. 2021-02-03T21:37:02Z Josh_2: Is there a portable version of SBCL's Timer subsystem? 2021-02-03T21:37:45Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T21:37:59Z no-defun-allowed: I think a better idea is to interrupt the thread with a function which attempts to unwind, maybe by wrapping MAKE-THREAD so that the thread function is run in a dynamic environment with e.g. a CATCH tag or a handler for some error type. (Or can you (invoke-restart 'abort) in other threads?) 2021-02-03T21:39:09Z Bike: restarts are part of the dynamic context, so they're not copied for new threads 2021-02-03T21:39:12Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/no-defun-allowed/bailout/blob/master/Code/job.lisp#L45 is an overengineered implementation of that idea. 2021-02-03T21:39:24Z Bike: but implementations usually establish an ABORT or ABORT-THREAD restart in all threads 2021-02-03T21:41:31Z Bike: on sbcl for example, every thread function has an implicit (catch 'sb-thread::%abort-thread ...) around its body, and then when you abort it just throws, which naturally unwinds everything 2021-02-03T21:42:09Z Josh_2: no-defun-allowed: I normally just set a variable some place and the thread shuts itself down 2021-02-03T21:43:35Z no-defun-allowed: Right, then you could get stuck if the threads get stuck somehow. But the alternative is that, by unwinding, you could still violate the expectations the code author had w.r.t control flow, and break something. 2021-02-03T21:43:49Z Josh_2: if the threads get stuck the threads generally get yeeted 2021-02-03T21:44:02Z no-defun-allowed: (This is, in part, why the capability is only sent to the supervisor when something goes wrong.) 2021-02-03T21:44:04Z Josh_2: give 'em five seconds then yeet em 2021-02-03T21:45:44Z Josh_2: anyway I don't need to do that if there is a nice library that'll let me run a function in a thread every X amount of time 2021-02-03T21:47:09Z Josh_2: Trivial-timers :P 2021-02-03T21:47:12Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T21:47:20Z no-defun-allowed: Assuming your function returns instantaneously, (bt:make-thread (lambda () (loop until stopped? do (f) (sleep x)))) is pretty close. 2021-02-03T21:47:32Z no-defun-allowed: Adjusting the sleep time is an exercise for the reader. 2021-02-03T21:47:43Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-03T21:48:09Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, also locking or CASing the stopped? variable, so that you don't get weird looks. 2021-02-03T21:48:51Z Josh_2: make it an object and use metalock 2021-02-03T21:48:54Z Josh_2: problem solved 2021-02-03T21:49:25Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T21:49:45Z Josh_2: huh I just tried to quickload :trivial-timers and it failed 2021-02-03T21:50:13Z Josh_2: well rip I'll just do it myself 2021-02-03T21:52:26Z no-defun-allowed: I wonder what those locks are supposed to achieve. 2021-02-03T21:53:06Z Josh_2: what locks? 2021-02-03T21:53:20Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T21:53:50Z no-defun-allowed: In metalock, specifically because they only make slot-value and (setf slot-value) atomic. 2021-02-03T21:54:28Z Josh_2: yes 2021-02-03T21:55:11Z Josh_2: well no it makes slot-value-using-class atomic 2021-02-03T21:55:13Z no-defun-allowed: Usually I find myself wanting to have exclusive access to slots for a while, e.g. with-lock-held. You could do unconditional sets with metalock, but you couldn't e.g. implement a counter properly. 2021-02-03T21:55:37Z Bike: no read-modify-write? 2021-02-03T21:56:14Z no-defun-allowed: That's the other option, yes. 2021-02-03T21:56:28Z Josh_2: anyway, it works as intended :P 2021-02-03T21:56:57Z no-defun-allowed: decentralise2 has a "locked box" structure for those kinds of things. 2021-02-03T21:57:08Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-03T21:57:10Z Josh_2: metalock has a metaclass for those kinds of things :P 2021-02-03T21:57:46Z no-defun-allowed: You can implement counters with a locked-box: https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/cl-decentralise2/-/blob/master/Code/Utilities/thread-box.lisp 2021-02-03T21:58:19Z Bike: docstring really inspiring confidence here 2021-02-03T21:58:57Z no-defun-allowed: Empirically, it did work, but it's slow for concurrent access of course. 2021-02-03T21:59:03Z Bike: anyway, yeah, i wonder what the author of metalock is thinking. are there interesting thread safe data structures that don't need at least a RMW? 2021-02-03T22:00:12Z Josh_2: RMW? 2021-02-03T22:00:15Z _death: no-defun-allowed: but (incf (box-value box)) exposes a race condition 2021-02-03T22:00:17Z Bike: read-modify-write 2021-02-03T22:00:18Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-03T22:00:31Z no-defun-allowed: _death: Correct, use (with-unlocked-box (v box) (incf v)) 2021-02-03T22:01:36Z Josh_2: Bike: I simply didn't want to have to call with-held-lock, thats all xD 2021-02-03T22:01:47Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps (setf box-value) is a worse idea than box-value, but if your idea of concurrency is that of Josh_2, then it'll work fine. :D 2021-02-03T22:01:55Z _death: no-defun-allowed: so I'm not sure what the point of a box is? associate a lock with a value? 2021-02-03T22:01:59Z Bike: Josh_2: you don't understand what i'm saying. If you can only read or write slots, you cannot safely do things as simple as increment a counter. 2021-02-03T22:02:23Z Bike: Josh_2: If you read a slot and then write it, another thread could try to increment the slot value between those two operations, and then your write would undo that. 2021-02-03T22:02:41Z Josh_2: yes 2021-02-03T22:02:47Z no-defun-allowed: _death: Exactly that. And that it's harder to get at the value without locking. 2021-02-03T22:02:49Z Bike: okay, so what is that actually good for? 2021-02-03T22:02:54Z Josh_2: Not doing that 2021-02-03T22:03:01Z Bike: But what ARE you doing 2021-02-03T22:03:08Z Josh_2: Literally not having to called "with-lock-held" 2021-02-03T22:03:25Z Bike: I am asking what kind of thread safe algorithms don't need RMW or anything. I am curious. 2021-02-03T22:03:27Z no-defun-allowed: If you make (box :copier #'identity), then (modify! (box-value )) then it's game over, but it has made foot-shooting in concurrent programs a bit harder for me. 2021-02-03T22:03:58Z no-defun-allowed: I'm pretty sure it's only good for sharing "should I stop now?" variables which are set unconditionally. 2021-02-03T22:04:03Z _death: I think these things evolved into STM, which supports transparent composition.. (the other way is message passing) 2021-02-03T22:04:08Z Josh_2: generally I have just used it for a top level object that holds various other structures, such as a 'server' class etc 2021-02-03T22:04:42Z Bike: But what do you do with them if you can't write modifications back safely? 2021-02-03T22:04:42Z no-defun-allowed: I wasn't aware of STM when I started writing decentralise2, and I don't know how it would interact with hash tables, for example. 2021-02-03T22:05:10Z _death: no-defun-allowed: for counters and flags like that, atomic operations seem to work 2021-02-03T22:06:07Z Josh_2: I don't know what you mean 2021-02-03T22:06:17Z no-defun-allowed: You could have an ABA problem with metalock. 2021-02-03T22:06:36Z Bike: I don't understand what you're doing with the lcoks. In what situation would you want a "with-lock-held" as you put it to begin with? 2021-02-03T22:06:57Z Bike: I'm just asking what kind of synchronization you're actually doing. 2021-02-03T22:07:40Z Josh_2: a access is wrapped by a reader writer lock 2021-02-03T22:07:46Z Josh_2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Readers%E2%80%93writer_lock#Using_a_condition_variable_and_a_mutex 2021-02-03T22:08:05Z Bike: i know what a rw lock is. i am asking about the higher level design. 2021-02-03T22:08:14Z Josh_2: what higher level design, there isn't any 2021-02-03T22:08:59Z Bike: I mean, look. Say I have an application with a bunch of threads. Each thread does some work and then increments a counter when its done. The main thread polls the counter to display a progress bar and then exits when it's maximized. 2021-02-03T22:09:21Z Bike: That's a higher level design. I think it's pretty simple but metalock can't do it. So I'm just kind of curious what sort of design you would use it for instead. 2021-02-03T22:09:28Z Josh_2: all that library does is change the default behaviour slot-value-using-class so that it performs It's read/write with a writer lock 2021-02-03T22:09:33Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-03T22:09:43Z Josh_2: or reader lock, it doesn't guarantee anything 2021-02-03T22:09:52Z no-defun-allowed: Exactly. 2021-02-03T22:10:06Z Josh_2: It's not meant to guarantee anything other than you won't read/write at the same time 2021-02-03T22:10:09Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T22:10:15Z no-defun-allowed: What can you achieve if it doesn't guarantee anything else? 2021-02-03T22:10:17Z _death: but blindly holding a lock when writing something doesn't get you much 2021-02-03T22:13:00Z no-defun-allowed: Suppose you have two threads A and B which run (setf (some-locked-thing) (1+ (some-locked-thing)), and (some-locked-thing) evaluates to 1 to start with. 2021-02-03T22:13:08Z Josh_2: yes 2021-02-03T22:13:34Z no-defun-allowed: One order of events is A reads 1, B reads 1, B sets 2, A sets 2. You want to lock for the whole SETF form, so that the whole computation is atomic. 2021-02-03T22:13:36Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T22:14:23Z no-defun-allowed: (i.e that it must be A reads 1, A sets 2, B reads 2, B sets 3, or that but with A and B swapped.) 2021-02-03T22:17:44Z Josh_2: Literally just guarantees that two threads wont write a slot at the same time 2021-02-03T22:18:48Z Bike: Yes but why. Why does it guarantee that and not more. What does that guarantee get you? What is it useful? I can't think of any thread coordination algorithms that only need that guarantee. That's what I'm asking. I don't understand what the usecase is. I understand what the guarantee is and you don't need to repeat that. 2021-02-03T22:19:00Z Josh_2: I have personally found it quite useful 2021-02-03T22:19:05Z Bike: for what? 2021-02-03T22:20:21Z _death: we have https://cliki.net/stmx .. though right now as I tried to load it, it got "stuck" until I C-c C-c'd, and at that point it resumed.. gasp 2021-02-03T22:20:51Z Bike: i remember that one did some pretty in depth sbcl stuff for the hardware STM 2021-02-03T22:20:57Z Bike: maybe it's out of date 2021-02-03T22:21:05Z Bike: er, hardware TM 2021-02-03T22:21:44Z _death: last commit was not long ago.. deleting the fasls it does the same, seems reproducible 2021-02-03T22:22:38Z _death: [00:22:22] stmx.lang thread.lisp (detect-thread-support fun5) - Warning: compiling STMX without multi-threading support. reason: (BORDEAUX-THREADS:JOIN-THREAD (BORDEAUX-THREADS:MAKE-THREAD ...)) signaled an exception: inconsistent form-number-translations 2021-02-03T22:23:21Z Bike: what does that inconsistent form-number-translations thing actually mean? i get it in sbcl a lot 2021-02-03T22:23:28Z Bike: for non-stmx reasons. something about M-.? 2021-02-03T22:23:48Z _death: Bike: yeah, I sometimes get that as well with recent SBCLs 2021-02-03T22:24:08Z Bike: also, i hope bordeaux threads provides a better way to check thread support than that 2021-02-03T22:24:11Z _death: Bike: yeah, it happened when I tried to go to source in the debugger 2021-02-03T22:25:23Z Bike: https://github.com/cosmos72/stmx/blob/209241acec51b5aaeac321d4cdad629f2190ba04/lang/thread.lisp#L92-L102 yeah, this doesn't seem great. shouldn't it be (or warning error) or something? 2021-02-03T22:26:12Z Bike: i mean, in addition to that bt should have something. maybe the new api will 2021-02-03T22:26:14Z _death: right, it handler-case on condition 2021-02-03T22:30:16Z no-defun-allowed: Josh_2: that's only of any use for unconditional writes though, and it's of no use for exclusive access to mutable data. 2021-02-03T22:31:15Z _death: changing to (or warning error) does not help join-thread there for some reason.. but calling (stmx.lang::detect-thread-support) just works.. strange 2021-02-03T22:31:39Z _death: *evaluating in the repl 2021-02-03T22:32:53Z Josh_2: no-defun-allowed: yes 2021-02-03T22:32:54Z _death: ah, it could be the eval-always.. it does that while being compiled 2021-02-03T22:34:29Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-02-03T22:35:59Z _death: it makes no sense to test for this while being compiled.. let me try :load-toplevel :execute 2021-02-03T22:37:56Z _death: much better.. loads fine and stmx.lang::*feature-list* looks good 2021-02-03T22:44:44Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T22:44:45Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T22:45:04Z minion joined #lisp 2021-02-03T22:45:04Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-02-03T22:46:27Z _death: hmm, but then it miscompiles start-thread etc. geez 2021-02-03T22:47:18Z _death: best to just remove that test and assume sanity :x 2021-02-03T22:48:33Z ebrasca` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T22:52:42Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-03T22:56:47Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-03T22:57:48Z bilegeek quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T22:57:51Z bilegeek_ joined #lisp 2021-02-03T23:00:30Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T23:05:26Z vegansbane696 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T23:08:27Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T23:13:19Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-03T23:15:05Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T23:22:47Z vegansbane696 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T23:28:39Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-03T23:32:46Z lalilulelo joined #lisp 2021-02-03T23:33:22Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-02-03T23:35:57Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-03T23:38:58Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-03T23:40:50Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-03T23:41:01Z hjudt quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-03T23:43:41Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-02-03T23:43:47Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-03T23:46:15Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-03T23:48:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-03T23:48:25Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-03T23:51:08Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-03T23:54:20Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-03T23:57:48Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-03T23:58:50Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-04T00:00:50Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-02-04T00:02:29Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-02-04T00:05:02Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-04T00:09:11Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-04T00:25:42Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-04T00:26:05Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-02-04T00:35:42Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-04T00:38:53Z Ziemas_ joined #lisp 2021-02-04T00:39:38Z Ziemas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-04T00:39:44Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-02-04T00:42:43Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-04T00:50:32Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-04T00:53:47Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2021-02-04T00:57:02Z red-dot: _death: Thanks. The list + uiop:native-namestring did the trick. 2021-02-04T01:02:24Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:03:05Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:03:59Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:12:42Z casual_friday quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-04T01:16:24Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:19:25Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-04T01:25:14Z vhost- joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:26:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:26:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:31:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-04T01:33:32Z casual_friday quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-04T01:33:54Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:34:53Z msk_ joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:35:09Z hhdave quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-04T01:35:27Z msk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-04T01:35:36Z jackdaniel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-04T01:35:36Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-04T01:35:46Z swflint joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:35:57Z hhdave joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:36:47Z jackdaniel joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:42:13Z casual_friday quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-04T01:42:41Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:51:03Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-04T01:53:16Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-04T02:00:32Z casual_friday quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-04T02:17:11Z routeveg joined #lisp 2021-02-04T02:17:16Z routeveg: Lo all 2021-02-04T02:17:25Z no-defun-allowed: Hello routeveg. 2021-02-04T02:17:33Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-04T02:17:56Z routeveg: oof, it's been a while since I came in here 2021-02-04T02:18:03Z routeveg: Are lisps still cool here? 2021-02-04T02:19:02Z routeveg: Real talk, i'm wondering about having something like emacs on an embedded platform. By embedded here, I mean perhaps 100k RAM. That kind of embedded. 2021-02-04T02:19:41Z routeveg: Micropython is a rather successful python compiler/repl/libraries for such platforms and it feels like there might be something to do there. 2021-02-04T02:19:44Z no-defun-allowed: It would be really weird if Lisp wasn't cool in #lisp. But I guess if it were COBOL and #cobol, the people there might have a different mindset of why they are there. 2021-02-04T02:20:29Z no-defun-allowed: There is uLisp for microcontrollers, which is something like a subset of Common Lisp with a unified function/variable namespace. 2021-02-04T02:20:30Z waleee-cl: that channel was on life support 2021-02-04T02:20:46Z waleee-cl: ~ less than 10 people 2021-02-04T02:21:30Z routeveg: ulisp does look like a good starting point for a more full-featured programming system 2021-02-04T02:21:42Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-04T02:23:06Z routeveg: It does include a program editor, but it's a bit minimal. appears to be a line editor thing 2021-02-04T02:24:14Z no-defun-allowed: I recall ulisp had a structural editor. It'd probably hurt my head too much to use, as I'm only used to screen editors. 2021-02-04T02:24:48Z routeveg: I guess in order to be emacslike, you want a screen editor thing, and the ability to run commands, and to bind commands to keys. 2021-02-04T02:25:00Z routeveg: That doesn't sound massively difficult. 2021-02-04T02:27:04Z no-defun-allowed: Though I would attempt to generate a bytecode as quickly as possible, as that would allow for faster interpretation, and you could possibly save space on function definitions you don't care about. 2021-02-04T02:28:33Z terpri: there are schemes for microcontrollers as well (microscheme, picobit, probably more) 2021-02-04T02:29:35Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-04T02:29:47Z routeveg: Ended up down a rabbit hole https://www.averylaird.com/programming/the%20text%20editor/2017/09/30/the-piece-table/ 2021-02-04T02:29:56Z terpri: and https://www.cliki.net/embedded but the non-ulisp entries don't appear to be relevant 2021-02-04T02:31:18Z no-defun-allowed: In proper Common Lisp, you could use Flexichain . From memory, McCLIM uses flexichains for the editor gadgets. 2021-02-04T02:33:53Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-04T02:34:59Z routeveg: Okay, thinking about memory usage and text editors and formats etc... are there any instances of 'whitespaceless' lisp editors? 2021-02-04T02:36:04Z routeveg: By which I mean, a source file is the same as an 'executable'. the editor controls indentation by the structure of the thing you're editing. 2021-02-04T02:36:24Z routeveg: You would need a kind of 'newline' atom that would be a NOP 2021-02-04T02:36:45Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-04T02:37:41Z routeveg: One could see this as making the lisp reader interactive. 2021-02-04T02:37:55Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T02:38:14Z minion joined #lisp 2021-02-04T02:38:15Z specbot quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-04T02:38:18Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-02-04T02:42:39Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-02-04T02:42:55Z hendursaga 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Connection closed) 2021-02-04T12:17:19Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-04T12:17:28Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-04T12:18:29Z malm quit (Quit: Bye bye) 2021-02-04T12:18:49Z malm joined #lisp 2021-02-04T12:19:09Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-02-04T12:20:19Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-04T12:22:48Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-02-04T12:27:17Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-04T12:27:39Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-04T12:29:37Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-02-04T12:30:56Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-04T12:33:27Z erh^ quit 2021-02-04T12:35:23Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-04T12:35:29Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-04T12:42:51Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2021-02-04T12:43:10Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-04T12:49:55Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-04T12:50:23Z nij: Why does such progn block evaluate its body entries at different time? https://bpa.st/XPZQ 2021-02-04T12:50:35Z nij: I thought all of the arguments should be evaluated equally. 2021-02-04T12:51:09Z flip214: nij: left-to-right, recursively. 2021-02-04T12:51:26Z flip214: so the first PRINT with its arguments, then SLEEP, then the next PRINT. 2021-02-04T12:51:49Z flip214: cclhs 5.1.1.1 2021-02-04T12:51:53Z flip214: clhs 5.1.1.1 2021-02-04T12:51:53Z specbot: Evaluation of Subforms to Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aaa.htm 2021-02-04T12:52:36Z nij: Well.. then it's super weird comparing to another observation. 2021-02-04T12:52:59Z nij: I have a function "suspend-user" that does essentially this: (uiop:run-program `("pkill" "-STOP" "-u" ,user)) 2021-02-04T12:53:03Z flip214: ah, sorry 2021-02-04T12:53:07Z flip214: clhs 5.1.3 2021-02-04T12:53:07Z specbot: Treatment of Other Macros Based on SETF: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_ac.htm 2021-02-04T12:53:20Z flip214: "Evaluation of argument forms occurs in left-to-right order" 2021-02-04T12:53:23Z nij: As you can see, the shell command will suspend the user. 2021-02-04T12:54:05Z nij: Then when I do (progn (suspend-user "nij") (sleep 3) (cont-user "nij")), my user login instance first got suspended, but then nothing happened. 2021-02-04T12:54:09Z nij: It kept being suspended. 2021-02-04T12:56:13Z flip214: well, is the lisp running as the same user? 2021-02-04T12:56:21Z nij: yep! 2021-02-04T12:56:23Z nij: Oh 2021-02-04T12:56:37Z phoe: did you stop the process that was supposed to resume your session? 2021-02-04T12:56:57Z nij: I stopped the user.. 2021-02-04T12:57:04Z nij: under which the process is running. 2021-02-04T12:57:12Z phoe: looks like it's not a progn problem then 2021-02-04T12:57:20Z nij: I see. That's why. Sorry for the dumb question. 2021-02-04T12:57:25Z phoe: :D 2021-02-04T12:57:52Z phoe: there's a lot of fun to be had when doing OS interaction 2021-02-04T12:58:43Z flip214 grumbles ...but where is the L-t-R order in CLHS? apart from SETF and macros? 2021-02-04T12:58:48Z nij: lemme make another system test 2021-02-04T12:58:52Z nij: (so i should log out brb!) 2021-02-04T12:59:13Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T12:59:40Z Xach: flip214: 3.1.2.1.2.3? 2021-02-04T13:00:59Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-04T13:02:37Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-04T13:04:00Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:05:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-04T13:06:05Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:06:14Z nij: It werked! Thanks folks :-) 2021-02-04T13:06:23Z nij: This kinda system commands.. how do you debug? 2021-02-04T13:06:33Z nij: At least.. I hope to be able to collect ALL outputs they generate 2021-02-04T13:07:33Z marcoxa joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:08:09Z flip214: Xach: yeah, thanks. google didn't return that for "left-to-right lisp evaluation clhs" 2021-02-04T13:08:15Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:08:41Z Xach: flip214: every true lisper has the sections memorized 2021-02-04T13:10:03Z nij: m far from being that 2021-02-04T13:10:22Z nij: hmm lemme put it this way 2021-02-04T13:10:29Z nij: there are so many ways to call shell commands 2021-02-04T13:10:36Z nij: which one do you think is the most robust? 2021-02-04T13:10:39Z flip214: Xach: I'm sorry. I'll try harder next year. 2021-02-04T13:10:48Z nij: easiest to debug.. etc. 2021-02-04T13:10:55Z nij: flip214: new year resolution for 2022! 2021-02-04T13:11:12Z Xach: nij: i prefer to use sb-ext:run-program directly, as it provides the features i need for controlling processes and their output. it has a very good docstring and comments. 2021-02-04T13:12:16Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-04T13:12:25Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:12:36Z nij: there's even sb-ext:run-program?! I should look into its difference with uiop:run-program. 2021-02-04T13:12:53Z Nilby: I would avoid using run-program if you can. 2021-02-04T13:13:08Z nij: Nilby: which one? and.. why so? 2021-02-04T13:13:08Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:13:46Z Nilby: For example: (defun pkill (user signal) (mapcar (_ (when (equal user (nos:os-process-user _)) (uos:kill (nos:os-process-id _) signal))) (nos:process-list))) 2021-02-04T13:15:25Z Nilby: Then you can debug with the lisp debugger, it's faster, and you don't need external proramgs, etc. 2021-02-04T13:15:39Z nij: i see 2021-02-04T13:15:47Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-04T13:15:53Z nij: so i gave to find the lisp equivalence of "pkill" 2021-02-04T13:15:57Z nij: s/gave/have/ 2021-02-04T13:16:22Z nij: yeah challenge accepted. the goal is to elevated myself from bashism, completely. 2021-02-04T13:16:44Z nij: which is hard really.. e.g. how do you get rid of ffmpeg? 2021-02-04T13:17:40Z Nilby: It's hard at first, but then it gets easier. There does exists a CL FFI to libav, but it's sadly incomplete. 2021-02-04T13:17:52Z nij: :( 2021-02-04T13:17:56Z flip214: Nilby: where is nos from? 2021-02-04T13:18:15Z nij: imagination? that's just an eg 2021-02-04T13:19:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-04T13:20:40Z Nilby: flip214: from my decaying Lisp castle, echoing with my rants of maddness, where few have ever ventured 2021-02-04T13:21:05Z nij: you have something like this here http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#sb_002dposix 2021-02-04T13:21:19Z nij: Nilby: why are you so mad? 2021-02-04T13:21:22Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:22:30Z Nilby: nij: Good question. I think it must be the endless wasteland of software that has driven me mad. 2021-02-04T13:22:53Z nij: could you elaborate? im genuinely curious 2021-02-04T13:25:02Z Nilby: I find it very maddening when software doens't work the way I want it too. Especially when it's something that should have worked or has been working for 30 years or something. 2021-02-04T13:26:41Z nij: oh.. yeah :-( 2021-02-04T13:26:58Z Nilby: Like last time I upgraded emacs the cursor started blinking. WHy??!? It drives you crazy when you've stopped the cursor from blinking 100s of times over many years. 2021-02-04T13:27:02Z nij: Beyond a region when an individual can control, we seek for community. 2021-02-04T13:27:15Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:27:29Z nij: And politics kicks in, which isn't always elegant and doesn't match our expectation. 2021-02-04T13:28:00Z nij: LOL your config had some problem? 2021-02-04T13:28:23Z Nilby: Form me, Lisp comes closest to giving the individual the most control. 2021-02-04T13:28:52Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:30:39Z Nilby: But they spent over 10 years wrangling out the poltical minutia of Common Lisp before it could get to where it is. 2021-02-04T13:30:56Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:31:02Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T13:31:17Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:31:39Z nij: Nilby: sorry my internet connection isn't the best now. 2021-02-04T13:31:45Z nij: Yeah I feel the same say. 2021-02-04T13:31:53Z nij: Why wouldn't people think so? 2021-02-04T13:32:27Z flip214: sb-unix:sc-nprocessors-onln gives me "84" ... which is an awful big number of processors! 2021-02-04T13:32:45Z flip214: and in fact it isn't, it's the sysconf constant to _request_ that data... :-( 2021-02-04T13:33:14Z Nilby: flip214: that must be wrong 2021-02-04T13:36:27Z Nilby: flip214: i mean you're right about how it's wrong 2021-02-04T13:36:36Z semz: How does CFFI interact with save-lisp-and-die type releases? If I define a library, use (use-foreign-library libfoo) at the top level and then save-lisp-and-die, is the resulting executable tied in some way to what I have on my system? This would be undesirable e.g. for graphics. 2021-02-04T13:38:43Z semz: If no, to what degree can I rely on that? If yes, how'd I get around that? Obviously I don't want to ship e.g. my graphics drivers that are useless to others. 2021-02-04T13:40:03Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-04T13:43:04Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T13:44:13Z Bike: sbcl mentions how it works here, i think http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Loading-Shared-Object-Files 2021-02-04T13:44:29Z Bike: on sbcl. dunno about other implementations 2021-02-04T13:44:46Z jackdaniel: the safest way is to have init/close function pair 2021-02-04T13:44:54Z jackdaniel: the first opens libraries, the second closes them 2021-02-04T13:45:09Z jackdaniel: so before saving the image, close all libraries 2021-02-04T13:45:29Z jackdaniel: and when starting, initialize them (I'm sure there is a prologue code option for save-lisp-and-die) 2021-02-04T13:45:38Z jackdaniel: then, if you depend on say libgl, it will be loaded anew 2021-02-04T13:45:53Z jackdaniel: (of course it must be present on the target system) 2021-02-04T13:45:56Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:46:25Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T13:56:08Z n3t quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-04T13:57:04Z semz: Oh hm. Yeah, that would work and be much less of a headache than I expected. 2021-02-04T13:59:18Z KREYREEN joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:59:21Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-04T13:59:37Z KREYREEEN quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T14:01:05Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:02:09Z theothornhill quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-04T14:02:23Z Nilby: You know debugging's going to be rough when: "%PRIMITIVE HALT called; the party is over." 2021-02-04T14:02:41Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-04T14:02:48Z theothor` is now known as theothornhill 2021-02-04T14:03:07Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:04:10Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-04T14:04:31Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:04:56Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:05:11Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T14:05:34Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:08:07Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-04T14:08:10Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T14:08:32Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:08:59Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:09:11Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T14:09:12Z n3t joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:09:33Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:10:12Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:11:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T14:11:30Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:12:50Z caret joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:13:10Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T14:13:31Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:14:13Z mmmattyx joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:15:11Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T14:15:33Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:15:34Z davros joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:16:10Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T14:16:14Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-04T14:17:22Z em1n joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:17:57Z phoe: oof 2021-02-04T14:26:02Z logand: does somebody know glv2 maintainer of ironclad? 2021-02-04T14:26:59Z phoe: the second line of https://github.com/sharplispers/ironclad/commit/f3d4b38b0f3db290ed95b5a24d235cd7c03ddeb4.patch has relevant contact info 2021-02-04T14:28:09Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:30:59Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:32:02Z joast joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:32:09Z logand: phoe: i was hoping i could reach him on irc 2021-02-04T14:34:06Z Xach: not all interesting lispers use IRC 2021-02-04T14:35:06Z flip214: and not all on IRC are interesting 2021-02-04T14:36:27Z em1n_ joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:38:03Z em1n quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-04T14:41:23Z em1n joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:44:40Z em1n_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-04T14:45:57Z albusp joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:47:24Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-04T14:47:59Z em1n_ joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:48:29Z em1n_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-04T14:48:33Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T14:51:33Z em1n quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-04T14:51:45Z epony joined #lisp 2021-02-04T14:52:31Z jackdaniel: and not all uninteresting are on irc ;) 2021-02-04T14:52:35Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T14:52:59Z ``Erik quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-04T14:53:10Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:00:16Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-04T15:06:22Z jonatack quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-04T15:06:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-04T15:07:12Z madage quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-04T15:07:32Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:07:41Z manjaro-userm1 joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:10:43Z edgar-rft: but it might be of interest if there are uninteresting people having interesting interests on irc 2021-02-04T15:12:02Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-04T15:12:08Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:20:49Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:21:43Z manjaro-userm1 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-02-04T15:22:28Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-04T15:26:02Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T15:26:25Z marcoxa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-04T15:27:49Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T15:29:45Z jonatack_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T15:30:19Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:33:43Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:34:14Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:40:30Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-04T15:42:05Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:44:37Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:45:32Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:45:46Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:49:46Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-04T15:50:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-04T15:56:59Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T15:57:33Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-04T16:03:28Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T16:03:44Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-04T16:12:05Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-04T16:13:00Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-04T16:16:58Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-04T16:18:19Z Steeve joined #lisp 2021-02-04T16:25:55Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-04T16:32:34Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-04T16:32:41Z remby joined #lisp 2021-02-04T16:33:10Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-04T16:40:47Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-04T16:40:54Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-04T16:41:20Z VincentVega quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-04T16:43:56Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-04T16:51:44Z Etothepiiminus1 joined #lisp 2021-02-04T16:53:05Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2021-02-04T16:55:41Z madand quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-04T16:56:07Z Etothepiiminus1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T16:57:23Z madand joined #lisp 2021-02-04T17:00:41Z jmercouris: I have a function that returns either 0 or some value 2021-02-04T17:00:44Z jmercouris: I want to divide by this value 2021-02-04T17:00:52Z jmercouris: what should I do, handler case? some sort of (ceiling magic 2021-02-04T17:00:59Z jmercouris: what would be the most idiomatic way to show this? 2021-02-04T17:01:06Z jmercouris: s/ceiling/max 2021-02-04T17:01:59Z beach: What do you want the division to accomplish when 0 is returned? 2021-02-04T17:02:01Z beach: Error? 2021-02-04T17:02:03Z jackdaniel: (let ((divider (foo))) (if (zerop divider) (* value 100) (/ value divider)) 2021-02-04T17:02:22Z jmercouris: I don't want an error, it is a network error that results in 0 2021-02-04T17:02:28Z jmercouris: basically I would like to just show the whole number 2021-02-04T17:02:32Z jmercouris: which is why I was leaning towards max 2021-02-04T17:02:36Z jmercouris: just not sure if that is a good convention 2021-02-04T17:02:52Z beach: Sure, (max (f ...) 1) 2021-02-04T17:02:59Z frodef: jmercouris: maybe your (network) function should signal an error rather than return 0? 2021-02-04T17:03:06Z jmercouris: not my network function 2021-02-04T17:03:23Z jmercouris: otherwise, i would agree with that 2021-02-04T17:03:27Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-04T17:03:37Z frodef: jmercouris: then make it yours by a wrapper function? 2021-02-04T17:03:47Z jmercouris: ... maybe another time :-D 2021-02-04T17:03:54Z jackdaniel: (defun my-network-function (&rest args) (let ((result (apply #'their-network-function args))) (if (zerop result) (error "hi!") result)) 2021-02-04T17:04:24Z jmercouris: a very simple pattern and good suggestion, I will keep in mind 2021-02-04T17:04:28Z jmercouris: I didn't think to just wrap it 2021-02-04T17:04:31Z jmercouris: so easily 2021-02-04T17:04:37Z jmercouris: I was imagining something far more convoluted 2021-02-04T17:05:58Z jackdaniel: For experienced Lisp programmer parens are not visible and the code is trivial (because only the remaining 1% of it *is* visible to them) 2021-02-04T17:07:23Z frodef: you could also make a generic wrapper, if there are more library functions like that.. (defun nonzero (x &rest error-designator) (if (eql 0 x) (apply 'error error-designator) x)) 2021-02-04T17:07:53Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-04T17:08:21Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-02-04T17:08:46Z jackdaniel: of course a correct approach to both wrappers is to anticipate multiple values 2021-02-04T17:09:08Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: what are you talking about? who said anything about parens? 2021-02-04T17:09:33Z jackdaniel: I was joking about how common lisp programs are made of 99% parens 2021-02-04T17:09:37Z jackdaniel: let me find the inspiration 2021-02-04T17:09:42Z jackdaniel: on cliki 2021-02-04T17:10:02Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-04T17:10:51Z frodef: jackdaniel: doesn't make much sense to me to anticipate multiple values from something that signals an error by returning zero... :) 2021-02-04T17:10:52Z jackdaniel: there was a joke there that evil hackers stole 80% of the reminder of the source code in nasa 2021-02-04T17:11:08Z jackdaniel: and that the whole file was ")))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))" 2021-02-04T17:11:19Z jmercouris: lol 2021-02-04T17:12:07Z jackdaniel: frodef: the right thing something something ;) 2021-02-04T17:14:13Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-04T17:14:26Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp 2021-02-04T17:23:48Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2021-02-04T17:27:38Z Patzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-04T17:31:06Z Christ0pher quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-04T17:31:56Z Patzy joined #lisp 2021-02-04T17:32:48Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-04T17:37:45Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-04T17:41:24Z msk_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T17:41:49Z msk_ joined #lisp 2021-02-04T17:44:55Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-04T17:47:01Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2021-02-04T17:55:44Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-04T17:57:01Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-04T17:59:21Z Christ0pher 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2021-02-04T22:53:00Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-04T22:55:57Z anticrisis__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-04T22:58:01Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-04T23:00:29Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-04T23:03:21Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-02-04T23:11:56Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-04T23:12:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-04T23:12:31Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-04T23:14:08Z Josh_2: How do I define a generic function where methods are called from least specific to most? rather than the default being most to least 2021-02-04T23:14:16Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-04T23:17:07Z mfiano: (:method-combination ... :most-specific-last) 2021-02-04T23:17:44Z Josh_2: Thanks 2021-02-04T23:20:13Z anticrisis quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-04T23:20:32Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-04T23:34:25Z cognemo quit (Quit: cognemo) 2021-02-04T23:35:43Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-02-04T23:35:54Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-02-04T23:37:48Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-02-04T23:39:02Z Oddity- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-04T23:39:24Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-02-04T23:43:44Z Xach: Josh_2: one of the explicit examples in practical common lisp! 2021-02-04T23:50:00Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-04T23:50:49Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-04T23:50:52Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-04T23:50:55Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-05T00:09:53Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-05T00:10:08Z slyrus1 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T00:10:17Z slyrus2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-05T00:11:57Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-05T00:14:15Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-05T00:14:23Z Josh_2: Xach: It's been quite a while since I've looked at that chapter in PCL, I ended up looking in OO in CL by Sonja Keene 2021-02-05T00:21:42Z mikecheck left #lisp 2021-02-05T00:29:35Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T00:29:40Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T00:37:32Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-05T00:43:25Z tgbugs joined #lisp 2021-02-05T00:45:52Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T00:52:47Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-05T00:53:56Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T00:57:33Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-02-05T00:58:42Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-05T01:05:11Z Josh_2: If I want to use (call-next-method) in primary methods and :most-specific-last do I have to define my own method combination? 2021-02-05T01:06:27Z Bike: do you want standard method combination or something else? 2021-02-05T01:08:25Z Josh_2: Standard should work 2021-02-05T01:09:01Z Bike: i don't think you can reverse the order in standard method combination, so i suppose you would need your own combination indeed. 2021-02-05T01:09:45Z Josh_2: oh boy 2021-02-05T01:09:53Z Josh_2: or would also work 2021-02-05T01:10:23Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2021-02-05T01:11:10Z Bike: the reason call-next-method doesn't work in primary methods of the OR combination is that all the methods are involved without it anyway 2021-02-05T01:11:29Z Bike: e.g. if A is a subclass of B and they both have methods, you just have (or a-method b-method) or (or b-method a-method), so what would call-next-method be good for? 2021-02-05T01:14:45Z Josh_2: well if b-method takes a while then this is useful 2021-02-05T01:15:08Z Sweedish joined #lisp 2021-02-05T01:15:10Z Bike: huh? 2021-02-05T01:15:19Z Bike: i mean, you can choose which order you want, but that doesn't involve call-next-method. 2021-02-05T01:16:16Z peasynt quit (Quit: quit.) 2021-02-05T01:16:37Z Bike: can you describe what behavior you want exactly? 2021-02-05T01:16:55Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-05T01:18:19Z Josh_2: to call the least specific method first, if non nil then return this, otherwise keep calling until reaching most specific 2021-02-05T01:18:28Z mfiano: primary or auxillary? 2021-02-05T01:18:32Z Josh_2: primary 2021-02-05T01:18:57Z mfiano: Good. Changing the order in standard combination will not affect the aux methods 2021-02-05T01:20:09Z mfiano: Just write some dummy code and see if it behaves how you want? If not, come back and revise your question 2021-02-05T01:20:28Z mfiano: and we'll have code to see what you are doing and what you expect 2021-02-05T01:20:36Z Bike: in that case i don't see why you need call next method at all. just use the OR combination with :most-specific-last 2021-02-05T01:20:55Z Bike: it works exactly how you described. 2021-02-05T01:21:30Z Josh_2: That is what I assumed 2021-02-05T01:21:46Z Josh_2: I will just make sure that it isn't something else 2021-02-05T01:33:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T01:35:12Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-05T01:42:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T01:44:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-05T01:47:45Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2021-02-05T01:48:05Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T01:49:41Z Josh_2: Okay it worked 2021-02-05T01:49:43Z Josh_2: Thanks Bike 2021-02-05T01:51:10Z Bike: mhm 2021-02-05T01:55:18Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-02-05T01:57:45Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-05T02:00:56Z Josh_2: Wasn't a problem due to method combinations etc I just wasnt getting a non nil val when I expected it, I sorted that and all is good 2021-02-05T02:06:16Z catt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T02:12:59Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-05T02:20:48Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-05T02:20:48Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T02:21:12Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-05T02:37:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T02:44:01Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-05T02:44:53Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-05T02:46:20Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-05T02:48:18Z elflng quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-02-05T02:53:52Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-02-05T02:59:17Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-05T03:01:53Z logand` joined #lisp 2021-02-05T03:05:57Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-05T03:07:02Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-02-05T03:07:16Z micro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T03:10:02Z micro joined #lisp 2021-02-05T03:19:25Z Anonymous_ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T03:22:01Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T03:31:56Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T03:39:03Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-05T03:46:37Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-02-05T03:47:09Z asarch: How could I print "2021-02-01" instead of "2021-2-1"? I mean, the leading 0s 2021-02-05T03:47:29Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-05T03:47:38Z no-defun-allowed: (format nil "~2,'0d" 1) => "01" 2021-02-05T03:47:51Z asarch: Thank you! 2021-02-05T03:47:54Z asarch: Thank you very much! 2021-02-05T03:53:56Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T03:54:14Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T03:54:49Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-05T03:58:23Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-02-05T04:03:23Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-05T04:04:55Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-05T04:07:03Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-05T04:08:42Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-05T04:09:55Z dbotton: I though I would share a snap shot of my latest demo a list IDE - https://rabbibotton.github.io/images/clog-demo3.png 2021-02-05T04:10:42Z dbotton: I will flesh out more of it, but then will start on the visual tools I have planned 2021-02-05T04:11:15Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T04:14:58Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-05T04:20:08Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-05T04:29:03Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-05T04:35:46Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-05T04:36:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-05T04:46:12Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-05T04:47:39Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-05T04:48:26Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-05T04:50:58Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T04:53:09Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-05T04:53:34Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T04:54:57Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-05T04:58:10Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-05T04:58:30Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-05T04:58:58Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T04:59:37Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-02-05T05:02:30Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T05:05:26Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-05T05:06:02Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-05T05:06:15Z Codaraxis__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-05T05:06:34Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T05:08:20Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2021-02-05T05:11:35Z emacsomancer quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-05T05:13:45Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-05T05:15:59Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2021-02-05T05:19:52Z aorst joined #lisp 2021-02-05T05:19:52Z aorst quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-05T05:26:17Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-02-05T05:29:19Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-05T05:31:47Z Stargazer2005 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T05:39:39Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-05T05:39:55Z iskander- quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-05T05:41:54Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-05T05:42:13Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T05:52:20Z sm2n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-05T05:54:25Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-02-05T05:59:55Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-05T06:01:10Z texno joined #lisp 2021-02-05T06:06:24Z Stargazer2005 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-05T06:20:26Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-05T06:33:08Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-02-05T06:34:34Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-05T06:34:36Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-02-05T06:43:07Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-05T06:44:22Z stirfoo joined #lisp 2021-02-05T06:46:49Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-05T06:48:50Z stirfoo quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-05T06:49:52Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-05T07:01:16Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-05T07:02:50Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-05T07:02:50Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-02-05T07:02:50Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-05T07:19:33Z lowryder_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-05T07:21:32Z lowryder_ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T07:23:00Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T07:27:44Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T07:28:46Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T07:30:44Z maier joined #lisp 2021-02-05T07:38:39Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-05T07:55:11Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-05T07:58:06Z niceplace joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:01:45Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T08:06:57Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:07:41Z maier quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-05T08:14:16Z Nilby: Is there a recommended way to iterate over generic sequences in parallel [not multi-threaded] ? By generic I mean at least something that could be a list or vector. 2021-02-05T08:15:59Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:16:34Z jdz: Nilby: MAP. 2021-02-05T08:17:03Z no-defun-allowed: You can use (map 'nil (lambda (element) ...) sequences ...) - replace 'nil with a sequence type specifier if it should return another sequence from the value returned by the function. 2021-02-05T08:17:16Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:17:27Z no-defun-allowed: e.g. (map 'vector #'+ #(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) 2021-02-05T08:19:37Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T08:20:04Z Nilby: Thanks. I can't believe I didn't know that. 2021-02-05T08:20:55Z ex_nihilo quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-05T08:21:29Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:21:29Z totoro2022 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-05T08:22:09Z phoe: /30 2021-02-05T08:22:11Z phoe: oop 2021-02-05T08:22:53Z totoro2022 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:23:16Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:25:29Z Alfr: Nilby, I'm wondering what "in parallel" means to you, as when you only have one thread you're only going to do one computation at any given time. (Ignoring the costly variation of forking and then communicating back a result.) 2021-02-05T08:27:14Z no-defun-allowed: You would step the elements of the sequences in parallel. 2021-02-05T08:27:42Z Nilby: Alfr: Right. I just wanted to be clear about the word parallel. 2021-02-05T08:28:07Z no-defun-allowed: e.g (map 'list f a b) = (list (funcall f (elt a 0) (elt b 0)) (funcall f (elt a 1) (elt b 1)) ...) 2021-02-05T08:28:20Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:28:24Z Alfr: Oh, never thought of this interpretation. 2021-02-05T08:28:27Z Alfr: Thanks. :) 2021-02-05T08:29:24Z Nilby: Although I think things like let and psetq leave the possibility of concurency. 2021-02-05T08:30:00Z niceplace quit (K-Lined) 2021-02-05T08:30:20Z Nilby: no-defun-allowed: I hope it doesn't really use elt on lists. 2021-02-05T08:30:50Z no-defun-allowed: The forms that provide values in LET and PSETQ could have side effects, and thus would have to be evaluated in series to obey Common Lisp semantics. But I think lparallel has some kind of `plet` which also explicates data dependencies. 2021-02-05T08:31:39Z no-defun-allowed: Nilby: No, probably not. But it is indicative of what MAP will return. 2021-02-05T08:32:20Z Nilby: Hmmm. But let and psetq can at least re-order the evaluation. 2021-02-05T08:33:15Z Nilby: maybe? I don't really know 2021-02-05T08:33:20Z no-defun-allowed: Not generally - (let ((a ...)) (let ((b (setf a ...)) (c a)) ...) although obtuse, cannot be reordered. 2021-02-05T08:33:55Z no-defun-allowed: clhs let 2021-02-05T08:33:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 2021-02-05T08:34:08Z no-defun-allowed: "The form [elided] first evaluates the expressions init-form-1, init-form-2, and so on, in that order, saving the resulting values." 2021-02-05T08:35:20Z mrios22 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:36:58Z Nilby: Hmmm. It does say "in that order". I wonder if compilers can reorder or vectorize if they know there's no side effects. 2021-02-05T08:37:52Z no-defun-allowed: I don't see why not. 2021-02-05T08:38:13Z Nilby: except for things like cache timing attacks :o 2021-02-05T08:48:54Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:50:34Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:53:09Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:53:24Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:54:22Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-05T08:55:16Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-05T09:01:34Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-05T09:02:15Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:04:24Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:08:11Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:10:33Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-05T09:23:16Z APic quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T09:25:17Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:30:04Z pve_ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:30:24Z tassleoff joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:31:36Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T09:32:48Z pve_ is now known as pve 2021-02-05T09:32:57Z APic joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:33:27Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:33:43Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:35:20Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T09:37:10Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:37:45Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-05T09:39:18Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-05T09:50:45Z ralt joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:50:50Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:57:06Z daphnis joined #lisp 2021-02-05T09:58:02Z daphnis: is there any nice technique for avoiding a slightly shorter first line in docstrings? 2021-02-05T10:02:23Z beach: Why would there be a shorter first line? 2021-02-05T10:02:35Z beach: I recommend you make every line not too wide. 2021-02-05T10:03:29Z beach: And you can make them look nice(r) by using #.(format nil "First line ... ~@ Second line...~@...") 2021-02-05T10:03:54Z beach: That way, you can align the leftmost character of each line. 2021-02-05T10:04:13Z beach: So you get the entire docstring indented, but you have to do the indentation "manually". 2021-02-05T10:04:20Z daphnis: because it will be automatically indented 2021-02-05T10:04:38Z beach: I don't understand. 2021-02-05T10:06:16Z Nilby: daphnis: I think you just have to accept that good docstring output must be done by something that isn't just write-string. Like it depends on the width of your window too. 2021-02-05T10:06:24Z daphnis: if you use emacs auto-fill, then if a docstrings begin with more indentation than in subsequent lines, the first will be shorter 2021-02-05T10:07:12Z beach: Yes, Emacs is not doing a good job with documentation strings. 2021-02-05T10:07:13Z Nilby: I output docstrings with a thing that trys to fill paragraphs to the window width. 2021-02-05T10:07:20Z heisig: I fully agree with daphnis. Since the first line of a docstring of something like a DEFUN starts with ' "'. it is three characters shorter than each subsequent line. That is mildly annoying. 2021-02-05T10:09:11Z Nilby: Or one do something like: https://github.com/jfm3/boxen 2021-02-05T10:10:11Z heisig: The best solution I could imagine is to teach Emacs to make the first line slightly longer when executing 'fill-paragraph' in such a comment. 2021-02-05T10:11:53Z daphnis: it also seems that, in defgeneric, all lines are indented .. 2021-02-05T10:12:43Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T10:14:29Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-05T10:15:55Z Nilby: Also a simple word justification function is a one-liner in CL. 2021-02-05T10:16:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-05T10:16:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-02-05T10:16:57Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-05T10:16:58Z Nilby: a problem is you have to pick a width of output 2021-02-05T10:17:48Z daphnis: what's the one-liner? 2021-02-05T10:21:28Z Nilby: [excercise left to the reader] 2021-02-05T10:21:53Z Nilby: :) just kidding, you something like: (format t "~{~<~%~1,80:;~a~> ~}" (split-sequence #\space string)) 2021-02-05T10:22:29Z Nilby: or slightly longer: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2277#2277 2021-02-05T10:23:48Z daphnis: thanks! 2021-02-05T10:23:49Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-05T10:23:50Z Nilby: i guess it does depend on split-sequence or ppcre:split 2021-02-05T10:24:28Z mfiano: or uiop 2021-02-05T10:24:31Z Nilby: I don't recommend doing it that way in production, since it's slow. 2021-02-05T10:26:26Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-05T10:27:03Z daphnis: is there nothing like "\ that doesn't actually put a newline into the string? 2021-02-05T10:27:43Z mfiano: ~ 2021-02-05T10:28:19Z gxt quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-05T10:28:57Z daphnis: that seems to put a ~ and a newline into it 2021-02-05T10:29:42Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-05T10:29:52Z flip214: daphnis: you might want to use CL-INTERPOL 2021-02-05T10:30:04Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/6d4c9e0e50b899fd5629668e815106e4 2021-02-05T10:30:07Z pve: daphnis: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2279 2021-02-05T10:30:21Z Nilby: or a faster version without needing a spliter https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2278#2278 2021-02-05T10:30:24Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T10:30:29Z pve: daphnis: you could use that while waiting for a proper solution :) 2021-02-05T10:31:21Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-05T10:32:19Z Nilby: The real problem is people write docstrings in a quirky way that sometimes could be word filled, but sometimes expects fixed-width pre-formmated spacing. 2021-02-05T10:32:36Z daphnis: mfiano: oh i see, i didn't realize you meant inside format 2021-02-05T10:33:18Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-05T10:35:34Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T10:37:49Z daphnis: but how do i get the argument to defgeneric's :documentation evaluated? 2021-02-05T10:38:05Z beach: I think I told you that. 2021-02-05T10:38:10Z beach: #.(format ...) 2021-02-05T10:38:18Z amk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T10:39:31Z daphnis: ah, thanks 2021-02-05T10:39:34Z amk joined #lisp 2021-02-05T10:39:36Z mfiano: Also, there's #'(setf documentation) 2021-02-05T10:40:33Z beach: That doesn't solve the layout problem, but it solves the problem that the docstring is noise to the person reading the code. 2021-02-05T10:40:39Z mfiano: That is, documentation for defgeneric need not be inside defgeneric. 2021-02-05T10:41:04Z beach: And it really shouldn't be. 2021-02-05T10:42:02Z beach: And, since the docstring to the person reading the code, there is a tendency to make docstrings (too) short, which kind of defeats the purpose. 2021-02-05T10:42:32Z beach: My favorite one is from SBCL (DOCUMENTATION 'CAR 'FUNCTION) 2021-02-05T10:42:43Z beach: "Return the 1st object in a list." 2021-02-05T10:47:36Z Nilby: Sadly the ratio of missing docstrings even in the abundant sbcl, is about .44 2021-02-05T10:49:04Z beach: How did you compute that? I mean, not every function or class or whatever requires one. If the code is relevant only to the person reading it, and is not part of some protocol, there is no particular reason to write a docstring. A comment is then more relevant. 2021-02-05T10:50:47Z Nilby: I'm not talking about the implementation code, just the exported symbols from the CL package. 2021-02-05T10:51:06Z beach: OK, that's definitely relevant. 2021-02-05T10:51:21Z Nilby: I wrote a thingy to calculate it. 2021-02-05T10:51:39Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T10:51:49Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-05T10:51:52Z Nilby: I've been slowly working on a package to add any missing docstrings to any implementation. 2021-02-05T10:52:00Z beach: Interestingly, many such docstrings should be different from the wording of the Common Lisp HyperSpec. 2021-02-05T10:52:00Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-05T10:52:35Z Nilby: Yes. Also the copyright issue is troublesome. 2021-02-05T10:53:05Z beach: Because a lot of behavior is undefined by the standard, but defined by the implementation, so the documentation should document the real behavior. 2021-02-05T10:53:14Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-05T10:53:34Z Nilby: I think the ratio of .44 is quite admirable as these things go. 2021-02-05T10:53:39Z mfiano: Lots of errata too, like the infamous PROG2. 2021-02-05T10:54:35Z Nilby: None of the progs have docstring in sbcl ): 2021-02-05T10:55:07Z Nilby: oops progn does 2021-02-05T10:55:11Z mfiano: multiple-value-prog1 does too 2021-02-05T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-05T11:00:35Z tassleoff joined #lisp 2021-02-05T11:02:38Z beach: I don't think that CAR needs a docstring, since it is well defined by the standard, but if it has one, it should at least be correct, and it should probably contain information about what subtype of TYPE-ERROR is signaled. 2021-02-05T11:03:58Z flip214: beach: I think that the type-error should be seen by a SSC and returned via the derived type information 2021-02-05T11:04:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T11:04:13Z beach: AREF on the other hand has lots of undefined behavior that justifies a documentation string. 2021-02-05T11:04:41Z beach: flip214: I don't understand what that means. Could you elaborate? 2021-02-05T11:04:56Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-05T11:05:10Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-05T11:05:36Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-05T11:08:02Z flip214: beach: If you (defun foo (x) (1+ (round x))) 2021-02-05T11:08:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T11:08:17Z flip214: then sbcl can give you Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES INTEGER &OPTIONAL)) 2021-02-05T11:08:44Z beach: flip214: What I meant was that, if someone wants to write SBCL-specific code, and that someone wants to handle the error, it should be documented that (say) SB-CAR-WAS-GIVEN-A-NON-LIST is the error signaled. 2021-02-05T11:09:12Z flip214: so the return value is automatically derived. similarly, possible errors could be seen and listed here. 2021-02-05T11:09:47Z beach: How would that look in this case? 2021-02-05T11:10:05Z beach: And what would be the form to evaluate to see it? 2021-02-05T11:10:09Z flip214: yeah, I mean that the compiler might be able to list potential conditions (or at least errors) that are signalled. 2021-02-05T11:10:57Z beach: Is that enough though? 2021-02-05T11:11:11Z beach: Different error types could be signaled in different situations. 2021-02-05T11:11:27Z beach: Then you would have to make the error type name really explicit. 2021-02-05T11:11:35Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-05T11:12:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T11:12:32Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-05T11:12:44Z flip214: beach: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/a1dc7ddb/ is what I get via vlime (swank) right now. 2021-02-05T11:12:56Z flip214: it could include an additional line about ERROR or so. 2021-02-05T11:13:27Z flip214: perhaps "may signal: SB-CAR-WAS-GIVEN-A-NON-LIST, NOT-A-NUMBER, ..." 2021-02-05T11:13:46Z flip214: by incorporating the information of functions called in there as well... 2021-02-05T11:13:46Z beach: Oh, for DESCRIBE? 2021-02-05T11:13:47Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T11:13:55Z flip214: though that might become a long list 2021-02-05T11:14:10Z flip214: yeah, is that a bad idea? 2021-02-05T11:14:36Z beach: The commercial vendors would not agree to give the function lambda expression for their code. 2021-02-05T11:15:39Z flip214: that's just because I evaluated it directly... when compiling a source location (or nothing) might be given, depending on the DEBUG quality I guess 2021-02-05T11:16:18Z beach: But that is where the information is given that you said was generated automatically. 2021-02-05T11:16:48Z Nilby: but you can't know all errors a thing might signal 2021-02-05T11:17:29Z beach: Sure, that's probably undecidable in general. 2021-02-05T11:18:22Z beach: My point is: If I want to find out what error type CAR signals when given a non-list, what form should I type to get that information. 2021-02-05T11:19:06Z beach: I argued that it should be (DOCUMENTATION 'CAR 'FUNCTION), and flip214 argued that i could write (DESCRIBE 'CAR) or something like that. 2021-02-05T11:20:48Z beach: Either way, I think that the information must be given manually. 2021-02-05T11:21:33Z Nilby: I like the documentation vs. the describe which doesn't seem very feasible. But I do like describe to figure out as much as possible. 2021-02-05T11:22:00Z Alfr: beach, I'd argue for (describe #'car); documentation should only give you that doc string. 2021-02-05T11:22:06Z totoro2022 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-05T11:22:47Z beach: Alfr: What docstring? 2021-02-05T11:23:25Z Alfr: That cryptic "Return the 1st object in a list." mentioned above. 2021-02-05T11:23:27Z totoro2022 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T11:23:34Z beach: Alfr: But it's wrong! 2021-02-05T11:23:54Z beach: If given NIL, then it is not returning the first element of the list, because there is no such element. 2021-02-05T11:24:11Z beach: And if it is given a non-list, it doesn't specify what happens. 2021-02-05T11:25:19Z Alfr: beach, I mean as to /what/ (documentation 'car 'function) should return, not whether sbcl's docstring for car is correct. 2021-02-05T11:26:54Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-05T11:27:49Z beach: It is an interesting question though, how the responsibility should be divided between DOCUMENTATION and DESCRIBE. I see DESCRIBE as being used mainly for objects that don't have documentation associated with them, like ordinary instances of standard classes. 2021-02-05T11:29:00Z beach: And for functions, I see no profound reason why the errors it may signal should be omitted from the documentation string. 2021-02-05T11:29:28Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T11:30:25Z Alfr: Or put it an other way, if you want additional information an implementation may provide, you should consult DESCRIBE. For example DEFUN arranges to set (documentation 'foo 'function) to documentation if it is provided. 2021-02-05T11:31:47Z Alfr: So a program may depend on them being unchanged (or unavailable). 2021-02-05T11:34:42Z flip214: beach: well, how about an (documentation 'car 'derived-conditions) or similar? could be integrated in IDEs that way. 2021-02-05T11:34:49Z Nilby: I think for most functions even the author of the function doesn't not know what errors something can signal, only what is explicitly signaled for useful purposes. 2021-02-05T11:36:34Z Nilby: s/not// 2021-02-05T11:38:57Z fiveop joined #lisp 2021-02-05T11:42:29Z fiveop quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-05T11:42:37Z fiveop joined #lisp 2021-02-05T11:45:10Z flip214: that's why I propose that the compiler keeps track as good as possible 2021-02-05T12:00:43Z mrios22: What's the best way to upgrade to emacs27 if I'm using ubuntu? (actually mint linux?) 2021-02-05T12:01:20Z flip214 grumbles "apt-get install neovim" 2021-02-05T12:01:36Z mrios22: Sorry, wrong IRC! 2021-02-05T12:01:48Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T12:01:49Z mrios22: should have been #emacs 2021-02-05T12:02:28Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-05T12:14:55Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-05T12:14:57Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-02-05T12:16:01Z mrios22 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T12:16:57Z engblom: flip214: Do you use neovim for Lisp? 2021-02-05T12:18:26Z Nilby: I'm ready for this error tracking compiler. https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2280#2280 2021-02-05T12:20:05Z no-defun-allowed: (make-condition ) might work better. 2021-02-05T12:20:36Z phoe: make-instance on a condition class is not portable in theory but is going to work on all implementations 2021-02-05T12:24:19Z v3ga: so does common lisp have a library similar to this? https://www.hugsql.org/ 2021-02-05T12:24:51Z phoe: I have no idea what exactly it does, but I used cl-yesql + postmodern back in the day 2021-02-05T12:24:54Z phoe: and I liked it 2021-02-05T12:24:54Z v3ga: also would you say i'm being foolish by wanting to write sql by hand opposed to cl-sql? 2021-02-05T12:26:55Z v3ga: phoe: that will do. hugsql seems to have been inspired by yesql. I figured it was originally from CL. My entry to coding was ruby so since then i've liked getting an understanding of whats really taking place... *dealing with actual sql for one* 2021-02-05T12:27:24Z phoe: cl-yesql came from yesql which is a clojure library 2021-02-05T12:27:49Z v3ga: ahh reverse....well still cool. thats exactly what I want for now 2021-02-05T12:29:59Z Nilby: v3ga: you can write sql by hand even with clsql, but if you use lispy syntax it might even work on multiple backends 2021-02-05T12:31:19Z Nilby: with clsql i had production code that worked on oracle, ms sql server, mysql, and postgresql 2021-02-05T12:31:57Z KREYREEN quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T12:32:20Z KREYREEN joined #lisp 2021-02-05T12:33:32Z skye0[m] left #lisp 2021-02-05T12:33:52Z v3ga: Nilby: I see...well maybe i'll give it a whirl since i'm already familiar with yesql but CLs OO system is new. I'm reading an article here...is the elephant library still used? https://common-lisp.net/project/elephant/ 2021-02-05T12:35:17Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-05T12:35:36Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-05T12:38:53Z Nilby: I'm not a fan of object-relational mapping things because I had to be very picky about performace in big databases. I did my own objects. 2021-02-05T12:40:38Z v3ga: Nilby: gotcha, that's kind of what i'm tip toeing around. Hmm, ok i'm going to toy around a bit more with it. 2021-02-05T12:41:56Z jmercouris: so I've got this setter that I wrote 2021-02-05T12:42:08Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/58BXQ6TZP 2021-02-05T12:42:18Z jmercouris: can I add the checking for the percentage as a specialization? 2021-02-05T12:42:45Z jmercouris: E.G. can I specify within the signature of the method that percentage should be between 0 and 100? 2021-02-05T12:43:23Z no-defun-allowed: No, but I think it should be an assertion instead. 2021-02-05T12:43:52Z jmercouris: no-defun-allowed: why? 2021-02-05T12:44:06Z no-defun-allowed: Trying to announce a percentage of -5% or 101% is an error - it makes no sense. 2021-02-05T12:44:14Z jmercouris: that's true 2021-02-05T12:44:20Z jmercouris: and so you think i should signal an error 2021-02-05T12:44:23Z jmercouris: it makes sense, yes 2021-02-05T12:44:41Z jmercouris: maybe I should make use of conditions and errors and signals more than I do 2021-02-05T12:44:45Z no-defun-allowed: But also, there aren't classes for arbitrary number ranges. 2021-02-05T12:44:52Z phoe: (check-type percentage (real 0 100)) is the best I think 2021-02-05T12:45:19Z jmercouris: no-defun-allowed: you can specify more than classes 2021-02-05T12:45:34Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, eql specializers too, but that's it. 2021-02-05T12:45:36Z jmercouris: phoe: ah, didn't think of check-type 2021-02-05T12:45:38Z Alfr: jmercouris, also you can't discriminate on types only classes. 2021-02-05T12:45:46Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-05T12:45:47Z jmercouris: I'm going to chain 100 eql statements :-D 2021-02-05T12:45:47Z jackdaniel: you may eql-specialize each number between 0 and 100 2021-02-05T12:45:53Z jmercouris: exactly 2021-02-05T12:46:05Z jackdaniel: don't forget about floats 2021-02-05T12:46:06Z jackdaniel: and ratios 2021-02-05T12:46:07Z phoe: as long as your percentages are integers, sure, I guess... but that'll slow the dispatch a bit 2021-02-05T12:46:10Z phoe: oh 2021-02-05T12:46:16Z jmercouris: it's a joke, I'm not going to do it 2021-02-05T12:46:19Z Alfr: no-defun-allowed, write once, read never? 2021-02-05T12:46:28Z jmercouris: I believe in read only memory 2021-02-05T12:46:29Z phoe: more like write once, debug forever 2021-02-05T12:46:32Z Anonymous_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T12:46:49Z jmercouris: sorry I mean write only memory 2021-02-05T12:46:52Z jmercouris: WOMs in other words 2021-02-05T12:46:53Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-05T12:49:42Z mfiano: You could use filtered-functions to define your own dispatcher, but I wouldn't do that for this. 2021-02-05T12:49:45Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella) 2021-02-05T12:51:12Z jmercouris: I think I'm going to go with no-defun-allowed approach 2021-02-05T12:52:05Z no-defun-allowed hopes "think" isn't used in a way that suggests one has reasons to consider eql specialisation on every real between 0 and 100. 2021-02-05T12:52:43Z jmercouris: that's exactly what I'm going to do, I'm even going to write a macro for it /s 2021-02-05T12:53:01Z jmercouris: wonder why my emacs highlights check-type in red 2021-02-05T12:53:06Z jackdaniel: to be honest I would be seriously impressed if someone had eql specialized every real between two different numbers 2021-02-05T12:53:34Z phoe: brb, let me iterate through all the doubles 2021-02-05T12:53:37Z jackdaniel: because it may signal an error? 2021-02-05T12:53:39Z no-defun-allowed: check-* does assertions, much like assert. 2021-02-05T12:54:03Z jmercouris: just about anything might signal an error 2021-02-05T12:54:13Z Alfr: jmercouris, you can't rationals are reals, thus you won't get away with finitely many eqls. 2021-02-05T12:54:27Z jmercouris: Alfr: who said anything about a finite amount of EQs? 2021-02-05T12:54:33Z jmercouris: I never claimed my program would be halting 2021-02-05T12:55:16Z jmercouris: I don't know why we always get into these absurd conversations on this channel 2021-02-05T12:55:24Z Alfr: You'll be alright then, if it never finishes generating code, faulty code will never run. :D 2021-02-05T12:55:25Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-05T12:55:33Z jmercouris: :-D 2021-02-05T12:55:49Z no-defun-allowed: Very funny. Now, do signal when you get silly values, and don't silently drop them, letting the caller get away with it. 2021-02-05T12:56:38Z theothornhill quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-05T12:57:00Z Nilby: absolute lisp power move /s 2021-02-05T12:58:22Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T13:01:11Z no-defun-allowed: Not even that, failing when the first invariant is broken would give you the best idea of what caused your problems. 2021-02-05T13:01:26Z jmercouris: sometimes we wish to silently fail 2021-02-05T13:01:45Z jmercouris: objective-c taught me that is very powerful 2021-02-05T13:02:59Z KREYREEN quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T13:03:16Z KREYREEN joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:04:19Z no-defun-allowed: I forgot the quote by Appel from some compiler book, but it went like "and the man who murdered his parents pleaded for mercy, as he was an orphan." 2021-02-05T13:06:10Z jmercouris: a list of type specifiers anywhere? 2021-02-05T13:07:12Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T13:08:02Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:08:38Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:08:45Z no-defun-allowed: One I do remember is "rather than having the software discover its own errors in a benign way, the discovery of such errors is left to the FAA or a Congressional committee." 2021-02-05T13:09:08Z no-defun-allowed: Though you have two problems if your web browser code is doing life critical stuff now. 2021-02-05T13:10:52Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T13:12:19Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-05T13:13:52Z jmercouris: that's a lot of responsibility for one little browser 2021-02-05T13:13:54Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:13:55Z jmercouris: :'( 2021-02-05T13:16:10Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:18:08Z gxt quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-05T13:21:33Z no-defun-allowed: Well, you get the idea. If you can't fix it, don't pretend it's okay. 2021-02-05T13:22:20Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:23:20Z jmercouris: I don't think that is an absolute rule 2021-02-05T13:23:36Z jmercouris: there are many fault-tolerant systems that must deal with failure by often ignoring it 2021-02-05T13:23:58Z jmercouris: I'm not making aerospace equipment here, I'm making a program that should stay running and DWIM without intervention as often as possible 2021-02-05T13:25:07Z no-defun-allowed: The user isn't going to be setting progress bar values though - but you could clamp to [0%, 100%] in case someone gives you a bogus value. 2021-02-05T13:26:40Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-05T13:26:50Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:27:48Z jmercouris: that is also achieved by the when 2021-02-05T13:28:48Z no-defun-allowed: Is it? You wouldn't update at all then. 2021-02-05T13:29:04Z jmercouris: I see 2021-02-05T13:29:09Z jmercouris: so if they give you a value of what, 200, you go to 100? 2021-02-05T13:29:23Z phoe: I'd assume so 2021-02-05T13:29:37Z no-defun-allowed: That's the best "not an error" interpretation I can think of. 2021-02-05T13:30:32Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:31:05Z phoe: optionally if the user gives you #C(70 70) then the loading bar goes upwards at a 45° angle 2021-02-05T13:31:16Z jmercouris: Ah, yes 2021-02-05T13:31:18Z jmercouris: :-D 2021-02-05T13:31:46Z jmercouris: I love those volume set competitions on programmer humor 2021-02-05T13:31:53Z jackdaniel: heretic, Y grows downward :c 2021-02-05T13:32:21Z Alfr: That's not sane, it will paper over some erroneous input and make you later hunt for errors in the wrong part of your program: The progress indicator obviously gets it right, the problem must certainly occur later ... 2021-02-05T13:32:56Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:33:00Z jmercouris: for example: https://gfycat.com/leadingcrazyfalcon 2021-02-05T13:33:10Z no-defun-allowed: I could somehow imagine getting 100% + ε from some weird rounding error. 2021-02-05T13:33:23Z Nilby: (loop for s being the symbols in :cl do (when (fboundp s) (defun s (&rest a) (ignore-errors (ap 2021-02-05T13:33:24Z Nilby: ply s a))))) 2021-02-05T13:33:36Z Nilby: .lisprc 2021-02-05T13:34:01Z Nilby: errors all gone 2021-02-05T13:34:04Z no-defun-allowed: What is that supposed to do? 2021-02-05T13:34:05Z jmercouris: Ah, so simple! 2021-02-05T13:34:16Z jmercouris: wraps all functions in cl 2021-02-05T13:34:32Z jmercouris: no-defun-allowed: in case you were asking me, it is a volume slider, here are some more: https://thenextweb.com/shareables/2017/06/09/bored-programmers-volume-slider-reddit/ 2021-02-05T13:34:36Z no-defun-allowed: (defun s (...) ...)? 2021-02-05T13:34:42Z Nilby: ugh, I wrote more joke code than real code today 2021-02-05T13:34:44Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:35:01Z caret joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:35:07Z no-defun-allowed: You do...write Common Lisp code, right? S isn't evaluated there. 2021-02-05T13:35:16Z jmercouris: ... don't take it so seriously 2021-02-05T13:35:38Z jmercouris: for all you know, he has a reader macro that magically makes it work 2021-02-05T13:35:53Z no-defun-allowed left #lisp 2021-02-05T13:36:35Z semz: no-defun-allowed: i'd argue that using floats (and summing them up at that, otherwise you'd stay below 100%) for that is an error in itself 2021-02-05T13:37:00Z semz: regrettably common error, but CL has rationals 2021-02-05T13:37:03Z phoe: wait til you add nans to the picture 2021-02-05T13:37:13Z Nilby: now I made it work and trashed my image after unlocking :cl 2021-02-05T13:37:30Z jmercouris: trashed your image? no, you've made a work of art 2021-02-05T13:37:56Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:38:15Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-05T13:38:45Z Nilby: I like to play "survive this sexp" 2021-02-05T13:44:38Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:50:13Z caret_ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:50:13Z caret quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-05T13:50:14Z caret_ is now known as caret 2021-02-05T13:51:03Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-05T13:55:45Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-05T13:59:59Z davd33 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T14:00:38Z ``Erik quit (Quit: BitchX-1.2.1 -- just do it.) 2021-02-05T14:00:40Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-05T14:01:36Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T14:05:01Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T14:05:37Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-05T14:07:54Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-05T14:11:03Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-05T14:17:11Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-02-05T14:17:20Z ldb: good evening 2021-02-05T14:17:40Z VincentVega: Out of curiosity, is there a way to modify class definition w/out reevaluating the actual definition? Say, add a slot to a class, e.g. have a restart that says class slot is missing and you can just add it on the spot, would that sort of thing require a lot of trickery? I mean, what are the options besides trying to keep the original code manually? 2021-02-05T14:19:10Z Bike: you could use mop ensure-class instead, probably 2021-02-05T14:20:06Z Bike: you can get all the properties of the class out of the class itself (e.g. mop:class-direct-slots), add to them, and then reinitialize the class with the additions 2021-02-05T14:20:45Z jmercouris: Bike: that is not foolproof, there are all sorts of edge cases 2021-02-05T14:20:49Z jmercouris: believe me, I have tried 2021-02-05T14:20:58Z Bike: i did not mean to imply that this was foolproof. 2021-02-05T14:21:01Z Bike: cos it definitely ain't 2021-02-05T14:21:19Z Bike: still, i don't see why it wouldn't work in principle 2021-02-05T14:22:09Z VincentVega: Bike: Interesting. 2021-02-05T14:22:48Z ldb: why not just check statically 2021-02-05T14:23:03Z VincentVega: jmercouris: if not a bother, any off-the-bat examples of where that could fail? 2021-02-05T14:23:06Z Bike: for this particular case i guess you would just have a slot-missing method 2021-02-05T14:23:23Z jmercouris: VincentVega: I don't remember it was some SBCL specific errors 2021-02-05T14:23:34Z jmercouris: which of course extended to other implementations in unique ways.. 2021-02-05T14:24:06Z VincentVega: jmercouris: alright, I see. 2021-02-05T14:25:12Z VincentVega: ldb: sorry, what do you mean? 2021-02-05T14:28:36Z ldb: it is already possible to check if an object of wrong domain has been applied to a function 2021-02-05T14:29:13Z ldb: using type system or wstatic analysis tools 2021-02-05T14:29:21Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-05T14:30:25Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T14:31:37Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-05T14:32:25Z VincentVega: ldb: Oh, I take it you were referring to a previous discussion here. 2021-02-05T14:34:14Z Bike: oh, the :direct-slots argument is supposed to be a specification rather than an actual slot definition. that's kind of inconvenient 2021-02-05T14:37:36Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-05T14:38:34Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T14:39:29Z VincentVega: Bike: I guess could still be used to reconstruct the original class definition. Though, at that point, might as well just store the original code. 2021-02-05T14:39:39Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-05T14:40:15Z Bike: https://gist.github.com/Bike/aadca846dee67e6fd16db4e69f54be2e here's my attempt. based on 30 seconds of testing i'm confident that this is absolutely correct. 2021-02-05T14:40:35Z Bike: you can try e.g. (defclass foo () () (:metaclass twb-class)) (slot-value (make-instance 'foo) 'hello-world) 2021-02-05T14:41:03Z Nilby: I feel like sometimes when you might think you want to dynamically add random slots to random objects, maybe one should just have simple property lists on objects. 2021-02-05T14:42:47Z Bike: probably 2021-02-05T14:42:52Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-05T14:43:19Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-05T14:44:02Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-05T14:44:27Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T14:44:48Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-05T14:46:00Z jmercouris: or a dictionary 2021-02-05T14:46:09Z jmercouris: the problem is that you can't specialize on a dictionary or plist that easily 2021-02-05T14:46:12Z VincentVega: Bike: sweet : ) 2021-02-05T14:46:14Z jmercouris: not without writing your own flow control code 2021-02-05T14:47:40Z Nilby: but I like Bike's correct code sketch 2021-02-05T14:48:00Z tassleoff joined #lisp 2021-02-05T14:48:42Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-05T14:48:46Z Bike: i suppose the fancier thing would be having it signal the usual error, but offering a restart to define a new slot 2021-02-05T14:49:00Z Bike: this just assumes you want a new slot, with no accessors and an initform of nil 2021-02-05T14:49:27Z jmercouris: should allow you to pass a form that will create the new slot 2021-02-05T14:49:35Z jmercouris: so the exact same syntax that you'd use in defclass 2021-02-05T14:53:45Z Guest14662 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:00:45Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:01:55Z Guest14662 quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2021-02-05T15:02:29Z Josh_2: Sorry to be a pain, but Ive run into a really annoying issue where I seem to be processing the same message twice when my restart is invoked and returns t, only when the prefix is #.admin is the message processed twice and I can't figure out why https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2281#2281 this is the code I think is the culprit, does anything stand out as obviously wrong with the way I'm using the restarts? I hope so xD 2021-02-05T15:04:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:06:48Z Anonymous_ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:07:25Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:08:26Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-05T15:08:59Z Bike: https://gist.github.com/Bike/aadca846dee67e6fd16db4e69f54be2e#gistcomment-3621408 now with fancy restart and defclass syntax. 2021-02-05T15:09:13Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-05T15:11:34Z Bike: Josh_2: i don't understand the flow here. you mean extract-command-and-args is called twice or what? 2021-02-05T15:12:51Z Josh_2: Yes, it seems that way, only when the prefix is #.admin, if the prefix is immediately valid then this doesn't happen 2021-02-05T15:14:18Z ldb quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-05T15:16:02Z Bike: from this flow it looks like process-message is called exactly once on each message, and proces-smessage calls extract-command-and-args exactly once 2021-02-05T15:16:18Z Bike: i don't see any way they could be called twice unless one of the functions not in the paste calls them 2021-02-05T15:16:21Z Josh_2: this is why I'm so confused 2021-02-05T15:17:56Z Josh_2: when I trace extract-command-and-args it is getting called twice 2021-02-05T15:18:13Z VincentVega: Bike: Awesome! You know, I am thinking there's a nonzero chance I might actually be using something like that, just in case, could you, please, add a license to it? 2021-02-05T15:18:18Z andreyorst: wanted to ask a bit silly question -- how Common Lisp compares to C++ for developing stuff which typically developed in C++, like game engines, where you need to squize as much of performance as you possibly can. AFAICS Common Lisp has all stuff that is available in C++ in terms of language features, e.g. object system, compile time evaluation, templates are not needed, as CL is dynamically typed. 2021-02-05T15:18:19Z andreyorst: But CL is garbage collected and C++ uses RAII model, so this bit can be a lot of impact for high performance applications. So if anyone has experience of developing in both languages, I would like to hear thoughts on this topic. Thanks! 2021-02-05T15:20:13Z Bike: andreyorst: #lispgames might have thoughts on this 2021-02-05T15:21:41Z andreyorst: Question is not specific to game development, just an example of something what commonly written in C++ 2021-02-05T15:21:53Z aeth: andreyorst: I mean, obviously C++ compilers are better because more people spend more time and money optimizing them... but there shouldn't be as much of a difference as you think because in both, you're going to preallocate nearly everything that you can, essentially avoiding the cost of allocations (which in C++ has a cost and in CL is usually 0 and sometimes a lot) 2021-02-05T15:21:55Z phoe: andreyorst: in practice, CL is gradually typed - you can add type information wherever the compiler cannot figure it out on its own, and you can have blocks that are weakly statically typed 2021-02-05T15:22:41Z aeth: andreyorst: Plus, a lot of the CL stuff in a game engine actually has to be manually memory managed because it needs to be passed to the GPU through the CFFI. 2021-02-05T15:23:20Z Bike: VincentVega: ok. but to reiterate i don't think this is actually a good idea probably. 2021-02-05T15:23:53Z andreyorst: aeth, game engine was just an example, but I see what you mean, thanks 2021-02-05T15:24:52Z aeth: andreyorst: I think the principle is going to be similar, at least if you want deterministic performance. Preallocate, and probably over-allocate. Use the preallocated. 2021-02-05T15:25:23Z VincentVega: Bike: well, just in case : D 2021-02-05T15:26:17Z pve: andreyorst: someone recently wrote a blog post about CL game engines, and I recall that the overhead associated with calling generic functions was the biggest pain point, GC not so much 2021-02-05T15:26:18Z aeth: andreyorst: And the high-performance core of anything that has to deal with arrays of numbers is going to be statically typed in CL because CL is gradually typed, as phoe said. 2021-02-05T15:26:31Z pve: please correct me if I'm remembering this wrong 2021-02-05T15:26:42Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:29:43Z VincentVega: Bike: thank you! 2021-02-05T15:30:00Z aeth: pve: CL's generics are runtime dispatch and can wreck a compiler's type inference, too. You don't want to use them in a hot loop, but they're fine (maybe even encouraged) in the setup part, at least ime. 2021-02-05T15:31:32Z choegusung quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-05T15:31:33Z aeth: NAME is probably the best example of a good generic. Even if you're using a struct for FOO instead, you might as well define a NAME method that just calls FOO-NAME... You shouldn't really architect your code to the point where you're calling NAME in a hot loop. 2021-02-05T15:31:55Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T15:35:04Z aeth: pve: At least ime, it's often a good idea to use an instance of a DEFCLASS class to hold a struct instance... The DEFCLASS provides a very high-level interface to the outside world, while the DEFSTRUCT is retrieved from the generic and cached and accessed in the hot loop. 2021-02-05T15:35:55Z aeth: The hard judgement call when you need performance ime is whether to turn a DEFCLASS into a DEFSTRUCT or to do this hybrid approach. 2021-02-05T15:36:47Z gendl: Hi, in cl-who, what would be the idiomatic way to insert a newline into the output? Just `(fmt "~%")` ? 2021-02-05T15:37:16Z gendl: I thought I remembered a keyword for that or maybe that was aserve's HTMLgen. 2021-02-05T15:37:48Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:38:04Z aeth: Well, (terpri) is the function in CL so you could see if that's part of the API 2021-02-05T15:38:30Z pve: aeth: makes sense.. the idea in the game engine mentioned by the blog post was to have it super-modifiable at runtime, which could explain the heavy use of generic functions 2021-02-05T15:38:53Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-05T15:39:23Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:39:38Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:39:58Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:40:14Z pve: aeth: oh, found the link: https://mfiano.net/posts/Gamedev-Sleep-Repeat.html 2021-02-05T15:40:17Z aeth: pve: Imo, the real way to make a (high performance) game engine super-modifiable at runtime ime would be to replace all of its constants (there should be dozens) with parameters to a macro and just recompile a caller of that macro at runtime. But it would be very tricky to do properly. 2021-02-05T15:40:35Z beach: andreyorst: As I often say, it is impossible to write a C++ program that is both modular and fast. And I though gamers would often forget about modularity, but aeth says I am wrong about that. 2021-02-05T15:40:42Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:40:57Z contrapunctus: Is there anything like the Smalltalk class browser for Common Lisp? 2021-02-05T15:41:21Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T15:41:23Z aeth: pve: So you should go one level more meta than normal and write a meta game engine... but it's all compile time, but you can just recompile at runtime... 2021-02-05T15:41:27Z phoe: not yet, and I've recently mentioned that I'd like to have one 2021-02-05T15:41:59Z tfb: contrapunctus: there is for specific implementations 2021-02-05T15:42:01Z Nilby: andreyorst: I used to be a C++ developer. Stay away from Common Lisp. It ruined everything for me. CL is very dangerous. Once you taste it's ultimate power and freedom you might never be able to go back. Yes, some have used CL to become very rich, but do you really want to risk being forever a crazy Lisp cultist? 2021-02-05T15:42:21Z contrapunctus: phoe: hey 🙂 don't hear from you in lisp@ of late! ^^ 2021-02-05T15:42:24Z ski quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2021-02-05T15:42:29Z tfb: for instance LispWorks has one) 2021-02-05T15:42:40Z contrapunctus: tfb: oh 🤔 2021-02-05T15:43:04Z contrapunctus: I guess I might try making one. 2021-02-05T15:43:07Z phoe: contrapunctus: hey hi! lisp@? what do you mean? 2021-02-05T15:43:17Z pve: aeth: yeah, I can imagine it would require complex solutions 2021-02-05T15:43:17Z contrapunctus: phoe: the XMPP room lol 2021-02-05T15:43:23Z aeth: Nilby: were you Nullby back then? 2021-02-05T15:43:30Z phoe: oh! I totally forgot about it to be honest 2021-02-05T15:43:34Z phoe rejoins 2021-02-05T15:43:44Z contrapunctus: ^^' 2021-02-05T15:44:04Z aeth: pve: Right, you'd have to simultaneously define everything to be done at compile time via macros, while at the same time not breaking the running game if the parameters were adjusted at runtime. It would be very complex. 2021-02-05T15:44:22Z aeth: (I mean, not literally everything at compile time, merely everything that can be done at compile time.) 2021-02-05T15:45:22Z aeth: And I mmean allowing the recompilation of a top-level DEFINE-GAME-ENGINE form, of course. Not crashing when the macro itself was redefined would probably be impossible in the general case. 2021-02-05T15:46:18Z pve: contrapunctus: I'm making a little smalltalk-in-lisp, and would really like to make a class browser for it at some point in the future :) 2021-02-05T15:46:56Z pve: I wonder which GUI library would be suitable.. 2021-02-05T15:47:10Z beach: pve: Definitely McCLIM. 2021-02-05T15:48:09Z phoe: definitely mcclim 2021-02-05T15:48:27Z pve: beach: alrighty! 2021-02-05T15:48:46Z beach: pve: In fact, for a class browser you could probably use Clouseau, perhaps with some additional customization. 2021-02-05T15:49:31Z rople joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:51:37Z pve: beach: ok that's good to know, will definitely check it out 2021-02-05T15:51:48Z contrapunctus: Would it be preferable for such a tool to work with the definitions loaded in the Lisp image, or with those in the project's files? 2021-02-05T15:52:08Z phoe: the former will be much easier 2021-02-05T15:52:39Z phoe: the latter is going to be damn hard because you'd need to evaluate code to find out what classes are available at all 2021-02-05T15:52:41Z aeth: It would be interesting to do both and then warn you when you try to commit to git with definitions out of sync. 2021-02-05T15:52:59Z aeth: These days, I restart SLIME just to be safe before pushing code to the origin 2021-02-05T15:53:19Z phoe: the trivial cases with DEFCLASS forms are going to work fine 2021-02-05T15:53:19Z aeth: It's too easy to rename a function, but still keep one caller of that now-ghost function around. 2021-02-05T15:54:05Z contrapunctus: aeth: been bitten by that innumerable times when Elisping Q_Q 2021-02-05T15:54:16Z contrapunctus: phoe: I see, thanks 😀 2021-02-05T15:54:28Z phoe: but imagine a DEFCLASS with a #.(foo) form inside it - which is possible and also one of the easiest ways to break the assumptions that you can parse Lisp code by reading it without read-eval or compilee-eval 2021-02-05T15:54:33Z pve: contrapunctus: In smalltalk, the source code is retained in the image, so in my class browser I would do the same for Lisp to keep things consistent 2021-02-05T15:55:22Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:55:56Z contrapunctus: pve: would your class browser be for the Smalltalk-in-Lisp, or both? 🤔 2021-02-05T15:56:18Z phoe: I'm not even talking about crazy cases like (funcall (find-symbol (format nil "~A-~A-~A-~A" :ensure :class :using :class) :closer-mop) nil (get-class-name)) 2021-02-05T15:56:36Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:56:37Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:57:06Z phoe: even if morally questionable, this code is legal CL 2021-02-05T15:57:17Z phoe: try figuring our available classes from that. 2021-02-05T15:58:06Z scymtym: that said, static analysis does not have to cover every imaginable case to be useful 2021-02-05T15:58:07Z phoe: so, I'd guess, go for the classes available in the system at a given moment, and let people restart inferior lisps like aeth and I do if they want clean images 2021-02-05T15:58:07Z rople quit (Quit: rople) 2021-02-05T15:58:17Z phoe: scymtym: yes, that's correct 2021-02-05T15:58:36Z aeth: phoe: Anything obfuscated like that should be a warning because it's so unclear to read that it's a potential back door insertion 2021-02-05T15:58:38Z rople joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:58:58Z scymtym: but yes, to be sure, a fresh image seems like only reliable way at the moment 2021-02-05T15:59:08Z scymtym uses a local CI-style setup for that 2021-02-05T15:59:10Z phoe: aeth: I don't say anyone should write or accept code like that; it's just that class definition can happen in obscure ways and times 2021-02-05T15:59:10Z pve: contrapunctus: I would like to be able to show smalltalk classes and their methods, but also lisp functions, special variables etc 2021-02-05T15:59:16Z rople quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-05T15:59:36Z pve: contrapunctus: but I'm not sure how hard it would be to integrate everything cleanly.. probably pretty hard 2021-02-05T15:59:39Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:59:44Z rople joined #lisp 2021-02-05T15:59:48Z phoe: and a static analysis tool won't get to find all of that unless it's taught to find them 2021-02-05T16:00:34Z rople quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-05T16:00:58Z rople joined #lisp 2021-02-05T16:01:28Z Nilby: My dream is there is no code. 2021-02-05T16:02:30Z Josh_2: Bike: I figured out the problem 2021-02-05T16:02:34Z Josh_2: Thanks for taking a look 2021-02-05T16:02:35Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-05T16:04:38Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-05T16:05:20Z Bike: no problem 2021-02-05T16:05:59Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-05T16:10:49Z ski joined #lisp 2021-02-05T16:10:52Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T16:15:29Z Josh_2: It was because two communities listen in the same room, so as the bot iterates through the community and processes the messages in the appropriate administration room (which is the same for both communities) it was reading the message twice. This isn't normally a problem because commands are internal to communities, but for global commands this becomes an issue 2021-02-05T16:15:31Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-05T16:15:55Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-05T16:16:01Z ecm1 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T16:16:16Z Josh_2: using a variable with dynamic scope to store the ids of messages prefixed with #.admin solves this problem 2021-02-05T16:16:54Z ecm1 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-05T16:17:10Z ecm1 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T16:25:10Z caret quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T16:26:46Z ecm1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-05T16:27:31Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-05T16:36:08Z tassleoff_ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T16:38:05Z carkh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-05T16:38:10Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T16:38:32Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-05T16:40:07Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T16:40:48Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T16:51:18Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T17:01:36Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-05T17:09:29Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-05T17:11:41Z akovalenko joined #lisp 2021-02-05T17:14:34Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T17:18:42Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T17:19:04Z rople quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T17:20:59Z mmmattyx joined #lisp 2021-02-05T17:23:05Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T17:33:44Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T17:43:15Z tassleoff_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-05T17:47:57Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-05T17:50:15Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-05T17:51:33Z tfb quit 2021-02-05T18:06:00Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-05T18:07:11Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-05T18:07:11Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-05T18:10:09Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-05T18:23:09Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-05T18:25:34Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-05T18:25:41Z recalloc joined #lisp 2021-02-05T18:27:08Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-05T18:27:12Z recalloc: Hi, I'm trying to enable clsql's reader syntax, but Sly doesn't seem to cooperate. Works on a terminal, though. Anyone had a similar issue have a workaround? 2021-02-05T18:27:43Z akovalenko quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-05T18:29:30Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-05T18:30:22Z recalloc: Specifically clsql:enable-sql-reader-syntax doesn't seem to cooperate regardless how I place it. Only thing that seems to work is clsql:file-enable-blablabla, but only when compiling entire files. No idea how I'd set it up to type SQL queries in a single defun or the REPL 2021-02-05T18:30:58Z mh joined #lisp 2021-02-05T18:31:27Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-05T18:34:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-05T18:34:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T18:36:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-05T18:36:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T18:42:00Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-05T18:54:19Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-05T19:04:08Z rogersm: Any video on how to use slime-inspector? 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I'll tell rogersm when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-02-05T20:36:49Z carkh: any easy way to get syntax highlight in .asdf files on emacs ? looks like sly doesn't do this out of the box 2021-02-05T20:37:25Z phoe: huh? are you in lisp-mode? 2021-02-05T20:37:32Z carkh: mhh 2021-02-05T20:37:52Z carkh: ok well =) sorry about that ! 2021-02-05T20:37:55Z carkh: thanks 2021-02-05T20:37:57Z phoe: :D 2021-02-05T20:41:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T20:42:51Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-05T20:44:11Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-05T20:44:11Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-05T20:47:03Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-05T20:52:25Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-05T20:52:38Z aeth: carkh: .asd is the ASDF extension which explains why .asd wasn't recognized. 2021-02-05T20:52:43Z aeth: *why .asdf wasn't recognized 2021-02-05T20:53:18Z aeth: You can force it with this on the first line: ;;;; -*- mode: common-lisp; -*- 2021-02-05T20:53:28Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-05T20:54:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-05T20:55:06Z sunset_NOVA joined #lisp 2021-02-05T20:55:30Z carkh: aeth: i just noticed this. after configuring emacs to accept asdf files =) 2021-02-05T20:57:45Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-05T21:03:13Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T21:04:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T21:10:23Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-05T21:10:45Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-05T21:10:58Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-05T21:11:21Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T21:12:57Z vegansbane6963 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-05T21:13:49Z hiredman: I have a weird sbcl alien ffi issue, I am creating a c struct, and setting fields on it, and I think I am running in to some kind of alignment or padding issue 2021-02-05T21:14:37Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T21:15:15Z hiredman: the first field is 8 bits, the second and third are 16 bits 2021-02-05T21:15:28Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-05T21:16:28Z hiredman: I set all 3 fields to some values, and then read the value back out of the second field, and it comes out fine, then I send the data over the network, and it comes out as the value of the first field, the value of the third field, zero 2021-02-05T21:18:05Z hiredman: so maybe when I set the field setf is taking the number as 32bits and setting both fields or something? but that doesn't explain how reading it back before it goes out on the network is all correct 2021-02-05T21:18:42Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-05T21:20:15Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T21:20:39Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-05T21:22:48Z sunset_NOVA quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-05T21:28:00Z hiredman: arg, the luajit version of this I am trying to interoperate with is helpful inserting padding into the middle of its struct definition, mystery solved 2021-02-05T21:36:01Z carkh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T21:37:12Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-02-05T21:38:41Z Anonymous_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T21:46:39Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-05T21:47:12Z VincentVega quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-05T22:17:46Z C-16 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T22:17:57Z C-16 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-05T22:26:48Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-05T22:30:59Z luni quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-05T22:32:46Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-05T22:36:49Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T22:44:05Z Anonymous_ joined #lisp 2021-02-05T22:47:45Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-05T22:49:50Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-05T22:56:20Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-02-05T23:11:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T23:11:32Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-05T23:12:10Z wildlander joined #lisp 2021-02-05T23:16:16Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-05T23:20:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T23:24:33Z unimog joined #lisp 2021-02-05T23:25:43Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T23:28:46Z unimog quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T23:29:39Z unimog joined #lisp 2021-02-05T23:34:28Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T23:36:10Z Danishman quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-02-05T23:38:43Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-05T23:44:27Z voidlily joined #lisp 2021-02-05T23:50:36Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-05T23:53:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-05T23:54:20Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T23:57:45Z unimog quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-05T23:58:20Z unimog joined #lisp 2021-02-06T00:00:33Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-06T00:02:07Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T00:13:10Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T00:13:27Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-06T00:17:02Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-06T00:39:09Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-06T00:40:05Z gabiruh quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T00:42:23Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2021-02-06T00:47:57Z JetJej joined #lisp 2021-02-06T00:49:45Z JetJej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T00:50:38Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T00:51:36Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-06T00:58:58Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T01:28:37Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-06T01:29:23Z jpli joined #lisp 2021-02-06T01:33:00Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-06T01:35:26Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-06T01:37:52Z red-dot joined #lisp 2021-02-06T01:41:27Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2021-02-06T01:46:14Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-02-06T02:04:17Z nydel quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.1-dev) 2021-02-06T02:05:02Z erh^ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T02:05:19Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-06T02:05:37Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-06T02:08:39Z rople joined #lisp 2021-02-06T02:11:49Z enzuru joined #lisp 2021-02-06T02:13:06Z slyrus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-06T02:14:23Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-06T02:28:20Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-06T02:32:31Z unimog left #lisp 2021-02-06T02:39:57Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-06T02:45:22Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-06T02:49:26Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-06T02:51:24Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T02:53:14Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T02:57:59Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-06T02:59:44Z logand`` joined #lisp 2021-02-06T03:03:05Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T03:14:48Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-06T03:15:14Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-06T03:15:14Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-02-06T03:15:14Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-06T03:27:55Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-06T03:59:27Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-06T04:02:18Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T04:04:09Z zacts: hi beach 2021-02-06T04:04:43Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-06T04:05:43Z beach: minion: memo for rogersm: I recommend you use Clouseau instead. It is way more competent than the SLIME inspector. 2021-02-06T04:05:44Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rogersm when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-02-06T04:08:48Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-06T04:11:37Z loli joined #lisp 2021-02-06T04:17:58Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T04:18:04Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-06T04:23:02Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-06T04:23:18Z Josh_2: I have added two restarts to my restart-case and sbcl is complaining that it cannot stack allocate 2021-02-06T04:23:21Z Josh_2: is this normal? 2021-02-06T04:26:55Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-06T04:28:12Z gutter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T04:28:52Z beach: Josh_2: I get that message a lot, and I turn it off whenever I can. 2021-02-06T04:29:25Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T04:34:31Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-06T04:35:42Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-06T04:36:26Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-06T04:36:46Z recalloc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T04:37:30Z loli joined #lisp 2021-02-06T04:37:56Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T04:38:12Z Josh_2: ah okay 2021-02-06T04:40:35Z loli quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-06T04:41:10Z loli joined #lisp 2021-02-06T04:42:10Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-06T04:42:14Z loli quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-06T04:42:56Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-06T04:44:15Z loli joined #lisp 2021-02-06T04:44:27Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-06T05:00:49Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-06T05:18:58Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T05:27:15Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-06T05:27:32Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-02-06T05:28:08Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T05:28:10Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T05:28:10Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T05:28:11Z frodef` joined #lisp 2021-02-06T05:28:26Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T05:28:35Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-06T05:28:41Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T05:28:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T05:28:49Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-02-06T05:29:05Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T05:35:41Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-06T05:36:10Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T05:38:24Z loli joined #lisp 2021-02-06T05:40:02Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-06T05:48:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T05:49:22Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-06T05:50:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T05:52:20Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T05:53:43Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-06T05:53:57Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-06T05:57:30Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-06T06:02:01Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-06T06:02:28Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-06T06:02:59Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-06T06:04:11Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-06T06:12:04Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T06:18:32Z rople quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-06T06:22:51Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-06T06:23:10Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-06T06:28:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T06:32:11Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T06:39:26Z beach quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T06:42:57Z beach joined #lisp 2021-02-06T06:46:45Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-06T06:47:03Z nullman joined #lisp 2021-02-06T06:49:37Z zch joined #lisp 2021-02-06T06:51:55Z beach: In SICL, I use the term "code object" for a data structure that is created as a result of processing a FASL file, but I am not happy with the term. 2021-02-06T06:52:11Z beach: I considered "compilation unit", but I suspect it would not be accurate with respect to the way that term is used by the Common Lisp standard. But I am not sure, so I am asking here. 2021-02-06T06:52:19Z beach: The macro with-compilation-unit seems to suggest a compilation unit is all about delaying (or avoiding when possible) messages from the compiler. And the glossary is not much help either. 2021-02-06T06:52:21Z beach: So what I am asking is, does the macro with-compilation-unit generate a single FASL from all the files being compiled in its dynamic environment? 2021-02-06T06:53:50Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T06:59:19Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-06T07:06:52Z daphnis joined #lisp 2021-02-06T07:16:12Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-06T07:18:48Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-02-06T07:19:16Z lowryder_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T07:21:29Z lowryder_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T07:21:33Z Codaraxis__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-06T07:22:46Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-06T07:23:04Z loli joined #lisp 2021-02-06T07:47:49Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T07:53:03Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-06T07:53:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-06T07:54:03Z Alfr_: beach, I don't think it can for compile-file. 2021-02-06T07:55:03Z beach: Yeah, maybe not. 2021-02-06T07:55:49Z Alfr_: beach, but if you want to do some inter function optimizations, I think you'd be able to. 2021-02-06T07:56:00Z beach: I see, yes. 2021-02-06T07:56:24Z Alfr_: I would interpret "actions deferred by the compiler until the end of compilation will be deferred until the end of the outermost call to with-compilation-unit" that way. 2021-02-06T07:56:54Z flip214: engblom: yes. neovim and vlime with sbcl and swank. 2021-02-06T07:57:05Z beach: Alfr_: You may be right. 2021-02-06T07:59:16Z Alfr_: But I don't know to where to write the results of such. 2021-02-06T08:01:22Z toorevitimirp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T08:15:30Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-06T08:18:43Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-06T08:21:33Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-06T08:28:57Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-06T08:32:34Z niceplace joined #lisp 2021-02-06T08:32:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T08:33:50Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T08:37:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T08:38:45Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-06T08:39:36Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-06T08:43:22Z frodef`` joined #lisp 2021-02-06T08:45:20Z rople joined #lisp 2021-02-06T08:45:22Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T08:57:07Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-06T08:57:22Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-02-06T09:02:17Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T09:03:17Z frodef`` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-06T09:03:24Z wildlander quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-02-06T09:03:34Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T09:07:50Z tessier_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-06T09:08:20Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T09:10:49Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-06T09:11:04Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-06T09:16:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-06T09:19:39Z karayan joined #lisp 2021-02-06T09:30:42Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-02-06T09:30:55Z narimiran quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T09:33:02Z rogersm quit 2021-02-06T09:34:33Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-02-06T09:37:08Z sunset_NOVA joined #lisp 2021-02-06T09:38:02Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-06T09:41:23Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T09:41:49Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-06T09:43:04Z karayan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T09:43:14Z karayan joined #lisp 2021-02-06T09:43:19Z tessier joined #lisp 2021-02-06T09:50:05Z Christ0pher is now known as anunnaki 2021-02-06T09:51:40Z niceplace quit (K-Lined) 2021-02-06T10:04:25Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-06T10:08:08Z ioa: Any lispers watching FOSDEM this weekend? :) 2021-02-06T10:09:17Z heisig: Here! 2021-02-06T10:12:54Z ioa: hey heisig :) 2021-02-06T10:13:06Z karayan quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-06T10:13:30Z ioa: Tomorrow looks exciting (as every year in this room): "declarative and minimalist language devroom": https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/track/declarative_and_minimalistic_computing/ 2021-02-06T10:13:41Z karayan joined #lisp 2021-02-06T10:15:10Z ioa: Any suggestions for talks before 13:00? (I'll be watching the mozilla devroom after that - work is work ^^) 2021-02-06T10:15:50Z ioa: ^ today I mean 2021-02-06T10:21:00Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-06T10:24:57Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T10:25:46Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T10:27:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T10:27:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T10:29:12Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T10:30:26Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-06T10:31:56Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T10:32:07Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-06T10:34:40Z fubbiquantz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-06T10:35:56Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-06T10:39:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T10:39:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T10:41:28Z nmg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-06T10:41:37Z nmg_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T10:53:07Z erh^ quit 2021-02-06T10:57:08Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-06T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-06T11:09:22Z karayan quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-02-06T11:10:58Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T11:14:30Z frgo quit 2021-02-06T11:21:13Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-06T11:24:33Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T11:25:13Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2021-02-06T11:25:24Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-06T11:29:08Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T11:29:15Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-06T11:32:02Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-06T11:32:39Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-06T11:32:42Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T11:33:02Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-06T11:33:04Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T11:36:29Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-06T11:37:43Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-06T11:50:25Z frodef`` joined #lisp 2021-02-06T11:55:17Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-06T11:57:43Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-06T12:03:40Z pankajsg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T12:06:28Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-06T12:08:29Z roelj joined #lisp 2021-02-06T12:13:16Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T12:18:38Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-06T12:19:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-06T12:20:31Z heisig: ioa: Sorry, I'm probably too late to comment on pre 13:00 suggestions. I will probably join the HPC devroom later. 2021-02-06T12:22:01Z heisig: But I fully agree. Tomorrow is the day of "declarative and minimalist languages". Which, surprisingly, seems to include Elisp and Common Lisp :) 2021-02-06T12:30:55Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T12:33:45Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-06T12:34:19Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-06T12:39:26Z sunset_NOVA quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-06T12:39:41Z birdwing joined #lisp 2021-02-06T12:43:16Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T12:43:33Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-06T12:46:07Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-06T12:50:41Z surabax_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T12:53:41Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T12:54:00Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2021-02-06T12:54:19Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-06T12:59:14Z surabax_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-06T13:04:40Z ioa: lol yes, I also found it funny that a common-lisp project is there. :) 2021-02-06T13:06:05Z contrapunctus: Elisp? Declarative and minimal? wat 2021-02-06T13:10:27Z ioa: Well, a lot of lispers are in that room, there are Scheme and Racket talks every year, and also other lisp-friend languages (as i see them) like Smalltalk, Pharo, etc. So it makes sense to have the common-lisp and elisp talks there too, even if they are not minimalistic (at all). 2021-02-06T13:10:38Z phoe: declarative for sure, given that you can macro your way all the way into declarative programming 2021-02-06T13:10:41Z phoe: same with CL 2021-02-06T13:11:09Z ioa: +1 phoe :) 2021-02-06T13:12:20Z ioa: Btw on Monday there is the fosdem fringe event "Guix Days" (scheme), and there will probably be a session on the common-lisp browser, Nyxt: https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/FOSDEM2021 2021-02-06T13:12:36Z phoe: ;; though CL is also declarative even without macros - see e.g. CL:DECLARE! 2021-02-06T13:12:37Z ioa: as one of the main developers is a guixer 2021-02-06T13:12:45Z ioa: lol phoe 2021-02-06T13:13:26Z ioa: s/(scheme)/(guile scheme)/ 2021-02-06T13:23:06Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-06T13:25:49Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-06T13:29:35Z Nilby: I like Mes https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/gnumes/ and I wonder if there could be a short(er) path from Mes to CL. 2021-02-06T13:30:05Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T13:34:37Z eden joined #lisp 2021-02-06T13:44:52Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-06T13:45:56Z sunset_NOVA joined #lisp 2021-02-06T13:48:09Z kapil_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-06T13:48:37Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-06T13:50:23Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T13:51:42Z Guest50502 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T13:53:11Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T13:53:20Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-06T13:53:59Z kapil_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T13:58:07Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-06T14:00:38Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-06T14:01:16Z eden quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T14:02:06Z eden joined #lisp 2021-02-06T14:04:06Z Guest50502 quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-06T14:07:18Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-06T14:07:34Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T14:08:55Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-06T14:20:33Z rople quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-06T14:24:14Z rople joined #lisp 2021-02-06T14:30:53Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-02-06T14:48:56Z acolarh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T14:50:36Z acolarh joined #lisp 2021-02-06T14:52:56Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-06T14:55:56Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-06T15:01:46Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T15:01:56Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T15:02:50Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-06T15:03:19Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-06T15:06:39Z Posterdati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T15:06:40Z frodef`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T15:08:58Z frodef` joined #lisp 2021-02-06T15:11:00Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Quit: Bye !) 2021-02-06T15:11:39Z kaun_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T15:19:59Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-06T15:27:19Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-06T15:29:07Z kaun_ left #lisp 2021-02-06T15:33:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T15:33:32Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T15:34:25Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-06T15:36:16Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T15:36:45Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T15:38:04Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-06T15:55:14Z engblom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T15:55:45Z engblom joined #lisp 2021-02-06T15:55:56Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-06T16:02:19Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-06T16:03:52Z unimog joined #lisp 2021-02-06T16:06:09Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-06T16:08:08Z ioa: Nilby there is a guix workflow language talk now in the hpc room: https://live.fosdem.org/watch/dhpc 2021-02-06T16:19:24Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-06T16:19:45Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T16:20:04Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-06T16:20:57Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-06T16:23:21Z beach: I uploaded a new version of my draft paper on call-site optimization: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf The new version contains sections on how call sites to FUNCALL and APPLY with a function name known at compile time are handled. 2021-02-06T16:25:18Z theothornhill quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T16:25:25Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-06T16:37:45Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-06T16:54:30Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - 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https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T17:31:47Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-02-06T17:33:02Z asarch: If I have two lists: '(ao aka shiro) and '(kuro midori aka), how could I know what elements of the first list are no present on the second list? 2021-02-06T17:33:45Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-06T17:33:52Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T17:34:19Z _death: are they sets? if so, (set-difference set1 set2) 2021-02-06T17:34:54Z asarch: Sets? 2021-02-06T17:34:59Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-06T17:36:26Z _death: does ordering or multiplicity of elements matter 2021-02-06T17:36:42Z asarch: (setf farbe (set-difference '(aka ao shiro) '(midori aka kuro))) 2021-02-06T17:36:45Z asarch: No, it doesn't 2021-02-06T17:38:58Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-02-06T17:39:51Z asarch: Yeah! Thank you _death! Thank you very much! :-) 2021-02-06T17:42:02Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T17:43:16Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T17:44:07Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-02-06T17:46:47Z IPmonger quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-06T17:47:10Z Inline__ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T17:48:06Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T17:54:59Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T17:55:43Z edgar-rft: asarch: set theory = mengenlehre 2021-02-06T17:56:04Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-06T17:56:13Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T17:57:34Z Inline__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-06T17:57:51Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-06T17:58:57Z Inline__ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T17:59:18Z Inline is now known as Guest25336 2021-02-06T17:59:28Z Inline__ is now known as Inline 2021-02-06T17:59:35Z Alfr_: _death, just made me have a terrible idea: (let (acc) (set-difference list1 list2 :test (lambda (x y) (push (list x y)) nil)) acc) 2021-02-06T18:00:01Z phoe: Alfr_: what is this supposed to achieve though 2021-02-06T18:00:06Z Alfr_: Oh, push onto acc of course. 2021-02-06T18:00:17Z phoe: yes, but why put that in TEST? 2021-02-06T18:00:39Z loke[m]: Alfr_: that is indeed a terrible idea. SET-DIFFERENCE doesn't specify how the test function is called. 2021-02-06T18:00:40Z Alfr_: phoe, cartesian product of list1 and list2 elements. 2021-02-06T18:00:44Z IPmonger quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-06T18:00:57Z phoe: ...oh 2021-02-06T18:01:02Z phoe: oh goodness 2021-02-06T18:01:42Z Alfr_: loke[m], it does, namely "for all ordered pairs" of the list's elements. 2021-02-06T18:01:59Z Alfr_: *lists' 2021-02-06T18:02:10Z phoe: loke[m]: but one thing is sure, if the test returns NIL all the time, then it is called on all combinations of list elements 2021-02-06T18:02:25Z phoe: "For all possible ordered pairs consisting of one element from list-1 and one element from list-2, the :test or :test-not function is used to determine whether they satisfy the test." 2021-02-06T18:02:42Z phoe: actually it looks like it specifies how the test function is called 2021-02-06T18:03:32Z phoe: that's a simple O(n²) test 2021-02-06T18:04:05Z Alfr_: In light of that requirement, is sbcl wrong to short circuit when a :test succeeds? 2021-02-06T18:04:14Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:04:55Z loke[m]: phoe: so it would seem. 2021-02-06T18:05:25Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:05:28Z Nilby: isn't there cautions about assuming things about test functions elsewhere? 2021-02-06T18:06:05Z Alfr_: Oh it's okay, "used to determine" should cover short circuiting. 2021-02-06T18:07:12Z loke[m]: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/17_ba.htm 2021-02-06T18:07:30Z Nilby enjoys creative use of :test side effects 2021-02-06T18:09:22Z ted_wroclaw: Hi everyone. I noticed that in the user list Fabrice Nicol is implementing some extensions to the emacs toolchain. This made me wonder...How much work would it be to implement the language server protocol (LSP) for Mercury? Has anyone worked with the LSP in another context? 2021-02-06T18:09:26Z ted_wroclaw: oops. 2021-02-06T18:09:37Z ck_: I think it's probably mandatory for someon to link https://lisptips.com/post/43404489000/the-tree-walkers-of-cl again at this point 2021-02-06T18:09:38Z ted_wroclaw: sorry. wrong chat 2021-02-06T18:10:11Z jackdaniel: oi oi, another polish lisp hacker ;) 2021-02-06T18:10:23Z hrberg joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:10:26Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:11:53Z phoe: ck_: that's :key though 2021-02-06T18:12:07Z phoe: oh wait, the second one has :test 2021-02-06T18:14:23Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T18:16:11Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-06T18:16:47Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:17:10Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T18:17:16Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:18:05Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-06T18:22:30Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:25:45Z IPmonger quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-06T18:26:20Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:27:14Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:27:26Z Alfr_: ck_, those are neat. 2021-02-06T18:33:31Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:33:48Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:36:31Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-06T18:38:24Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:38:28Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-06T18:39:36Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T18:39:38Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:39:39Z waleee-cl: ted_wroclaw: the mercury language? The prior art is limited to the flycheck addon I think so probably lots of work 2021-02-06T18:39:58Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:42:05Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T18:44:24Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:46:30Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-06T18:50:19Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:51:44Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T18:51:52Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:53:23Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:57:24Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-02-06T18:59:09Z puchacz: hi, in sbcl, what's the recommended way of making sure that a globally accessible thing is updated, so other threads don't see a garbage or unupdated value? 2021-02-06T19:00:25Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T19:01:50Z puchacz: lispworks manual says that (1) if you acquire a lock, it executes all pending updates to memory, or (2) if you start a new thread, it will only be started when all pending updates are complete; here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/LW/html/lw-142.htm#91403 2021-02-06T19:01:51Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:02:11Z puchacz: .3.4.1 Ways to guarantee the visibility of stores, points 1 and 5 2021-02-06T19:02:21Z puchacz: are the practical ways if I don't want to think about it too much 2021-02-06T19:02:27Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-06T19:02:29Z puchacz: but obviously it is specific to lispworks 2021-02-06T19:02:33Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:02:53Z puchacz: do I have to use barriers in sbcl? or both of these conditions like in lispworks are enough? 2021-02-06T19:03:28Z asarch: Bingo! Tadaima! :-) 2021-02-06T19:03:38Z phoe: a globally accessible thing is updated... 2021-02-06T19:03:44Z phoe: is this thing CASable? 2021-02-06T19:03:58Z puchacz: what is CAS? 2021-02-06T19:04:04Z phoe: check the SBCL manual! 2021-02-06T19:04:08Z phoe: it's compare-and-swap 2021-02-06T19:04:18Z phoe: atomic updating operations. 2021-02-06T19:04:31Z asarch: Theory, edgar-rft? 2021-02-06T19:04:45Z puchacz: phoe, ok, tks 2021-02-06T19:04:46Z puchacz: :) 2021-02-06T19:07:57Z ggoes quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-02-06T19:09:25Z puchacz: right, so would I have to update everything with compare-and-swap, that I would normally setf or call a setter method? 2021-02-06T19:09:58Z phoe: either your updates are simple and atomic enough to fit within a single CAS operation 2021-02-06T19:10:03Z ggoes joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:10:11Z phoe: or, if you need to update multiple objects or your place is not CASable, then you need to use a lock 2021-02-06T19:11:08Z puchacz: lock is fine by me. so it would make it identical to lispworks rule 1 (use lock) 2021-02-06T19:11:31Z puchacz: how about rule 5? when starting a new thread, all memory updates are completed before your code runs? 2021-02-06T19:12:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:12:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-02-06T19:12:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:12:15Z phoe: you shouldn't need to care about this if you use locks properly; your other thread will wait for the lock to get freed before doing anything nasty anyway 2021-02-06T19:13:07Z puchacz: I guess if "rule 5" was not true in sbcl, you wouldn't be guaranteed to see symbol bindings from another thread (even defuns) that you load from a file. 2021-02-06T19:13:23Z puchacz: but I did not find it stated explicitely 2021-02-06T19:13:32Z phoe: why does this have anything to do with threads? 2021-02-06T19:13:47Z phoe: global bindings are accessible from all threads in the same way, this includes global function bindings 2021-02-06T19:14:10Z phoe: if thread A modifies a global binding, then this binding becomes apparent in all other threads when thread A is done updating it 2021-02-06T19:14:33Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:15:35Z puchacz: so when slime or sly loads a program, and then starts REPL for you, what guarantees that in the REPL thread you see all bindings loaded before? just that enough time has passed? 2021-02-06T19:16:14Z phoe: when the function in the other thread returns 2021-02-06T19:16:16Z puchacz: on the other hand you see bindings in REPL thread that are made when your REPL thread is already running 2021-02-06T19:16:35Z phoe: when a function finishes doing stuff, then stuff is done 2021-02-06T19:16:43Z phoe: that's a thread-independent assumption 2021-02-06T19:17:44Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:17:48Z puchacz: maybe I am too paranoid from Java influence, where nothing is guaranteed to be visible to another thread if it is in a non-final object field and the field was not modifined inside synchronized block 2021-02-06T19:18:02Z puchacz: (however in practice I have never seen this problem) 2021-02-06T19:18:07Z Nilby: I very rarely experience such problems with threads. 2021-02-06T19:18:32Z phoe: lisp ain't java 2021-02-06T19:18:38Z puchacz: and lispworks manual is explicit that a new thread sees all global updates that the parent thread executed 2021-02-06T19:18:47Z Nilby: But I also ussually encapulate most state in dynamic objects. 2021-02-06T19:18:52Z phoe: when a thread mutates the state of the image then the state of the image is mutated for *all* threads 2021-02-06T19:18:59Z phoe: that's for global objects 2021-02-06T19:19:09Z Guest25336 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-06T19:19:43Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T19:19:52Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:19:56Z lowryder_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T19:20:35Z puchacz: so you think in sbcl that a new thread will see all updates to say defvar-ed global variables that are done by its parent thread before bt:make-thread? 2021-02-06T19:20:38Z ggoes quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-02-06T19:21:08Z phoe: what do you mean, before bt:make-thread? 2021-02-06T19:21:10Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:21:17Z phoe: (lambda () (setf *foo* 42) (bt:make-thread ...))? 2021-02-06T19:21:27Z phoe: then the value of *FOO* will be 42 before the thread is spawned 2021-02-06T19:21:34Z puchacz: (defvar x 3) (setf x 4) (bt:make-thread (lambda () x)) 2021-02-06T19:21:35Z puchacz: yes 2021-02-06T19:21:41Z sunset_NOVA joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:22:04Z lowryder_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:22:08Z puchacz: is the lambda guaranteed to read x as 4, and never 3? (assuming nothing else modified it) 2021-02-06T19:22:18Z phoe: I would say so, yes 2021-02-06T19:22:47Z phoe: #sbcl might be able to confirm 2021-02-06T19:22:55Z puchacz: this is what lispworks manual explicitely says, I wonder why they made it explicit.... as if it was not obvious 2021-02-06T19:23:11Z puchacz: ok, thanks - I will ask 2021-02-06T19:25:54Z ggoes joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:26:11Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T19:26:50Z sunset_NOVA quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-06T19:27:03Z sunset_NOVA joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:27:36Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:28:59Z IPmonger quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-06T19:30:20Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:39:23Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T19:40:21Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:40:44Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:41:24Z ted_wroclaw quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T19:41:28Z pankajsg quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-02-06T19:42:49Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-06T19:47:09Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:48:50Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-06T19:51:34Z puchacz: I think I remember from previous conversations that a non-dynamic let (i.e. lexical only) is always visible in another thread, like (let ((x 7)) (run-in-another-thread (lambda () x )) ) 2021-02-06T19:51:39Z puchacz: is it so:-)  ? 2021-02-06T19:52:23Z puchacz: mind I did not necessarily create a new thread there, I could have queued a closure for execution on a thread that already existed 2021-02-06T19:53:21Z nmg_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T19:53:35Z nmg joined #lisp 2021-02-06T19:54:21Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-06T19:57:24Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-06T20:05:45Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T20:05:50Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-06T20:05:59Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-06T20:07:53Z phoe: (lambda () x) is already a closure 2021-02-06T20:08:39Z puchacz: yes, this is what I referred to - the closure created there could have been put in a queue for an existing thread to be executed, not necessarily a new one. 2021-02-06T20:10:20Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T20:10:26Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-06T20:10:29Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-06T20:11:29Z puchacz: and how do you know that a mutated state of the image is mutated to all threads? I can't see it in the manual. 2021-02-06T20:11:37Z puchacz: (might be indeed that I worry too much) 2021-02-06T20:12:57Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-06T20:13:20Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-06T20:14:53Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-06T20:15:42Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-06T20:18:32Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-06T20:21:44Z phoe: in the general case, I guess this depends on your CPU and compiler combination 2021-02-06T20:22:03Z phoe: and, ultimately, on memory fences wherever they are required 2021-02-06T20:22:37Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-06T20:24:40Z puchacz: hmmm 2021-02-06T20:30:55Z birdwing quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-06T20:36:23Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-06T20:37:57Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-06T20:40:59Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-06T20:43:56Z puchacz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-06T20:44:16Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-06T20:45:46Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-06T20:46:41Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-02-06T20:47:29Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T20:53:55Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-06T20:59:02Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T21:00:43Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T21:01:54Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-06T21:02:50Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-06T21:04:34Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-06T21:06:43Z Bike: "this is what lispworks manual explicitely says, I wonder why they made it explicit.... as if it was not obvious" it's not obvious. i mean, it is intuitively, but intuition doesn't usually work very well with concurrency. 2021-02-06T21:07:12Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-06T21:07:33Z Bike: i don't think sbcl has any kind of memory model to define the behavior here. i'm kind of surprised lispworks has anything. practically speaking you can probably rely on make-thread and join-thread synchronizing, and locks working, but other than that you might need barriers 2021-02-06T21:07:49Z hrberg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-06T21:09:43Z puchacz: Bike - so if I let ((x "hen")) .... ) and have any closure where I put dots, I understand that the closure will read x as "hen" (I wanted a complex object, not a fixnum), no matter what thread will execute the closure, providing that nothing will (setf x "chicken") at some point, is it right? 2021-02-06T21:10:18Z puchacz: setfing anything requires a barrier, no matter if it is a global / special variable, or a lexical one? 2021-02-06T21:11:37Z Bike: if you never setf x you can probably rely on it having that value, yes 2021-02-06T21:12:06Z puchacz: is it "obvious":-)  ? 2021-02-06T21:12:26Z Bike: strictly speaking no, you can imagine a system where x is garbage in other threads 2021-02-06T21:12:29Z puchacz: like I can rely on it in any lisp because for example it is impossible to implement it other way 2021-02-06T21:12:35Z puchacz: ah, ok 2021-02-06T21:12:38Z Bike: the whole thing is technically undefined behavior, is the issue 2021-02-06T21:12:47Z Bike: so you're stuck with "well, sbcl PROBABLY works this way" 2021-02-06T21:14:01Z puchacz: and is a lock enforcing a barrier, like in lispworks? 2021-02-06T21:14:15Z puchacz: sorry if it was said already, I am confused 2021-02-06T21:14:19Z Bike: Yes, locks involve read and write barriers 2021-02-06T21:14:51Z Bike: It is confusing. Here's the problem: When you write your sequence of operations (setf x 0) (setf y 1) whatever, in one thread, the compiler and or machine might reorder those sets to be in some other order, as long as the single-thread semantics are the obvious ones 2021-02-06T21:15:02Z Bike: so if you're looking from other threads, you see impossible things 2021-02-06T21:15:05Z puchacz: agree 2021-02-06T21:15:17Z Bike: what a barrier does is tell the compiler and the machine to actually finish all the writes or reads or whatever that it's doing 2021-02-06T21:15:19Z puchacz: never seen it in Java, however they stress it in every tutorial 2021-02-06T21:15:40Z Bike: java put a lot of thought into how this behavior works 2021-02-06T21:16:59Z Bike: the problem only comes when one thread writes a place and another thread reads or writes it, and there's no synchronization relationship. If you only read and write to shared places from within excluded regions (like, with locks), that handles the synchronization so there's no issue. 2021-02-06T21:17:48Z puchacz: because grabbing a lock involves waiting for all pending stores to complete, globally in the whole image? this is what lispworks people imply I think about their system 2021-02-06T21:19:12Z puchacz: (I still don't understand if a barrier flushes everything, how would it decide otherwise what to flush) 2021-02-06T21:19:12Z Bike: When you release a lock there's a write barrier. When you acquire a lock there's a read barrier. So the thread that grabs the lock sees any writes done by the thread that just gave up the lock. 2021-02-06T21:19:30Z Bike: I don't think you can rely on writes in other threads being completed, though 2021-02-06T21:19:41Z puchacz: I see 2021-02-06T21:20:37Z puchacz: while I can imagine a write barrier means execute pending stores to memory (from instructions executes while the lock was held), what is a read barrier? clear any compiler level hidden caches? 2021-02-06T21:22:05Z Bike: say you have (progn (acquire-lock lock) (do-stuff (+ x y))). Without a read barrier, the compiler (or more likely the machine) might rewrite this as (let ((my-x x) (my-y y)) (acquire-lock lock) (do-stuff (+ x y))) 2021-02-06T21:22:24Z Bike: So if another thread has the lock and writes to x and y, this thread might not see that 2021-02-06T21:22:50Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-06T21:22:55Z Bike: Like, it might start the read earlier, anticipating that it will need the result soon 2021-02-06T21:23:56Z Bike: The barrier tells the compiler and the machine that it can't start reads after the barrier until it actually reaches the barrier 2021-02-06T21:24:10Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T21:24:45Z puchacz: I see, because, as in your examples, it copies values to local variables 2021-02-06T21:24:54Z puchacz: before the main operation begins 2021-02-06T21:25:26Z puchacz: read barrier means do not copy variables before the barrier 2021-02-06T21:25:31Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T21:25:38Z Bike: Yeah. You can imagine X might be a more complicated read, like accessing a vector or something. 2021-02-06T21:25:43Z swflint joined #lisp 2021-02-06T21:26:02Z Bike: (really, if x is a shared lexical variable, reading it probably amounts to reading a vector) 2021-02-06T21:28:32Z puchacz: right. and I always pass values to a thread by creating lexical variables visible in a closure that will be executed in a thread. you said I can rely it will PROBABLY work in sbcl, so is there a more recommended way? I would do the same in lispworks, but when I read carefully what they wrote, they only say I will have my variable values if I pass 2021-02-06T21:28:32Z puchacz: it to a closure that will be executed in a new thread, they don't say what happens if the thread is a long lived executor and I only pass my closure to a queue. 2021-02-06T21:29:40Z Bike: You mean, you put your closure in a queue, and then the other thread dequeues the closure and calls it? 2021-02-06T21:29:46Z puchacz: yes 2021-02-06T21:29:56Z puchacz: they don't say anything about this scenario 2021-02-06T21:30:31Z puchacz: and btw, this is how I pass unmodifiable variables only, and with objects that I don't intend to modify 2021-02-06T21:31:39Z Bike: So you mean, the sequence is like: You start the executor thread. You bind x. You create this closure that will read x. You put this closure in the queue. 2021-02-06T21:31:49Z puchacz: yes 2021-02-06T21:32:25Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T21:32:34Z Bike: if the queue is lock based there could be a synchronization relationship that way 2021-02-06T21:32:41Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-06T21:33:01Z Bike: otherwise, i suppose you would have to use a barrier. it looks like this "ensure-stores-after-stores" thing in lispworks is a barrier. 2021-02-06T21:33:18Z puchacz: yes, it seems so, however I only read it today :) 2021-02-06T21:34:05Z Bike: When I say "practically" part of what I mean is that this reordering stuff is usually pretty quick temporally. It's not like you'll have a read reordered an entire second before you expect it 2021-02-06T21:34:37Z puchacz: it is a realistic scenario in Android, you are supposed to "do stuff" and then stick a lambda into a queue to be executed in the main thread 2021-02-06T21:34:46Z Bike: https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/x86/+/android-wear-6.0.1_r0.15/Documentation/memory-barriers.txt btw, here's the linux kernel documentation on barriers that sbcl recommends 2021-02-06T21:35:16Z Bike: this is based on the particulars of how machines work rather than high level semantics, but it might help 2021-02-06T21:39:03Z puchacz: ok, thanks, I see recommended in sbcl manual's barrier section 2021-02-06T21:39:55Z Bike: oh, and i've been trying to write a language extension for lisp so that it does at least as well as java, so i wrote up something too https://gist.github.com/Bike/e587d9f6dcfb4c50936d61c4bc150398 still a work in progress 2021-02-06T21:39:55Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T21:40:48Z puchacz: excellent, thank you very much! 2021-02-06T21:41:08Z Bike: thank you for pointing out that lispworks does have some definitions here, it's the first lisp implementation i've seen that does 2021-02-06T21:41:14Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T21:41:44Z puchacz: yes, but they don't say about lexical variables, most of what I read today is about globally accessible cells 2021-02-06T21:43:50Z puchacz: I think I shall start writing code that passes variables to other threads like I did before, with lexical (let ...), but in addition add a barrier 2021-02-06T21:44:11Z Bike: Yeah the only mention of lexical variables I see is that you can't use the atomic operations on them, which isn't very encouraging 2021-02-06T21:44:31Z Bike: (here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/LW/html/lw-152.htm#24834) 2021-02-06T21:45:00Z puchacz: arrgh, "it is an error to use" 2021-02-06T21:45:09Z puchacz: barriers that is 2021-02-06T21:45:17Z puchacz: should work in sbcl and lispworks 2021-02-06T21:46:09Z Bike: also, with the definitions here "globally accessible cell" seems to me like it encompasses shared lexical variables, even though they're not actually global 2021-02-06T21:46:29Z Bike: since it just says a globally accessible cell is "a cell that may be accessed by those threads" 2021-02-06T21:47:49Z Bike: It's possible you don't need to use barriers depending on how your queue works. what kind of queue is it? something lispworks provides? 2021-02-06T21:48:18Z puchacz: it is android thing 2021-02-06T21:48:24Z puchacz: but I am thinking in general 2021-02-06T21:49:54Z puchacz: this: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/LW/html/lw-537.htm 2021-02-06T21:49:56Z Bike: i ask because with only the primitives lispworks has here, i don't think you could actually implement a queue that doesn't itself synchronize 2021-02-06T21:50:23Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-06T21:50:37Z Bike: oh, let's see 2021-02-06T21:51:16Z Bike: "The invocation of the function is done by the event loop of the GUI thread, so it is synchronous with respect to processing events, in other words it will not happen in the middle of processing an event." maybe that's enough? i don't know 2021-02-06T21:51:37Z Bike: you might be able to ask lispworks support about this, they'd know better than i do 2021-02-06T21:51:55Z puchacz: it is just that andorid draws everything in one thread, like java swing 2021-02-06T21:52:29Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-06T21:52:39Z puchacz: event processing uses the same thread, so what you put there, won't execute in parallel with event processing, because there is a single thread that responds to touches and draws 2021-02-06T21:53:07Z puchacz: so I am thinking I am reading a database in the background thread, which creates some objects, not practical to wrap it with bt:with-lock-held and use the same lock to access the objects in android thread. need to use memory barrier 2021-02-06T21:54:00Z puchacz: and it is compatible with sbcl (not that I would use sbcl on android, but the code may be shared) 2021-02-06T21:54:26Z Bike: I'm not familiar with android, but what I mean is - if you put something on this queue while processing an event, and you know that processing events synchronizes with the something being called, that's enough, and you don't need a barrier 2021-02-06T21:54:54Z Bike: The thing won't be called until definitely after you're done processing the event. the event loop has its own barriers 2021-02-06T21:55:07Z Bike: but i'm not totally sure that's how it works from the description here. it might 2021-02-06T21:56:31Z drl joined #lisp 2021-02-06T21:57:06Z puchacz: I see what you mean. it will finish processing an event, execute write barrier, and then when it grabs my closure, first thing it will do is a read barrier. but will read barrier help if I created an object reading from the database in the background thread without a write barrier? what will make sure that it is fully written to memory if I used no 2021-02-06T21:57:06Z puchacz: lock or barrier when reading the object? 2021-02-06T22:00:01Z Bike: You mean like... there's one thread that reads from the database, a different thread that pushes the closure to the queue, and then the third main thread that executes the closure? 2021-02-06T22:00:35Z puchacz: no, just 2 threads 2021-02-06T22:01:23Z puchacz: one thread reads the database and creates an object, puts it into a lexical variable using (let ((obj ....)) if not lexical already, and then pushes a lambda into the android queue. 2021-02-06T22:01:50Z puchacz: so my point is that I never used a write barrier - you said that write barrier related to a lock only flushes pending stores executed when the lock was held 2021-02-06T22:02:21Z puchacz: android will possibly run a write barrier when finishing last event processing, but it will flush its own writes onlhy 2021-02-06T22:02:25Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-06T22:02:49Z Bike: hm. i dunno. 2021-02-06T22:03:12Z Bike: i mean, there shouldn't be any harm in putting in barriers, except that it might make things slower 2021-02-06T22:03:34Z puchacz: looks like in lispworks I should put store-after-store, and find equivalent barrier call in sbcl 2021-02-06T22:04:35Z Bike: sb-thread:barrier 2021-02-06T22:04:55Z Bike: with :write or :read or whatever 2021-02-06T22:06:22Z puchacz: ok, thanks - I will read the details which values are actually stored, unless it is global for the whole image? 2021-02-06T22:06:33Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T22:07:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-06T22:07:54Z Bike: should be any stores from the thread doing the barrier, i think 2021-02-06T22:08:05Z puchacz: perfect 2021-02-06T22:08:13Z puchacz: flush all my writes up till this point 2021-02-06T22:08:56Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T22:09:42Z puchacz: and read barrier on the "opposite" side, to make sure the code did not read the values before I flush them, so now I understand why a new thread will not need read barrier in lispworks (it did not exist, it could not "cache" anything in lexicals for example) 2021-02-06T22:10:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-06T22:10:18Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-02-06T22:10:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-06T22:10:26Z puchacz: but frankly, it is unlikely a lambda passed on a queue for the existing thread to be executed would need a read barrier as the first instruction 2021-02-06T22:10:38Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-06T22:11:09Z Bike: yeah 2021-02-06T22:11:23Z Bike: i guess i can imagine some compiler transformations that would make it look like a read barrier violation 2021-02-06T22:11:28Z Bike: but it would be kind of asinine to do them 2021-02-06T22:12:17Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-06T22:12:34Z Bike: e.g., (let ((x 7)) (make-thread (lambda () (setf x 5))) (make-thread (lambda () (loop until (= x 5) do ...)))). the compiler could constant fold the x in (= x 5) to be 7 2021-02-06T22:12:57Z Bike: on the theory that there's nothing forcing the (setf x 5) to be visible ever 2021-02-06T22:13:27Z puchacz: right 2021-02-06T22:13:29Z puchacz: it is scary 2021-02-06T22:14:27Z puchacz: btw, on #sbcl - stassats told me in my example lexical x will always have the last value in sbcl, no matter if my lambda is passed to a new thread, or a queue for the old thread 2021-02-06T22:14:42Z puchacz: he disappeared before I understood what "shared" is though 2021-02-06T22:14:55Z puchacz: and I am supposed to use barriers and locks for shared things :) 2021-02-06T22:15:02Z puchacz: anyway, I learned a lot today 2021-02-06T22:16:03Z puchacz: locks I know from java, but barriers are the new friends now 2021-02-06T22:17:00Z Bike: probably just means in the unexamined sense of being accessible from multiple threads. but in your example x will always be 4 in the thread because make-thread does synchronization 2021-02-06T22:17:37Z puchacz: sure, but I also asked what if it is passed onto executor started long time ago, he says 4 2021-02-06T22:17:59Z puchacz: make-thread behaves like in lispworks, I see more and more evidence for it now 2021-02-06T22:18:14Z puchacz: maybe creating a closure is also a barrier 2021-02-06T22:18:37Z Bike: mh. like i said, if "a long time ago" is more than like a millisecond you don't need a barrier practically speaking 2021-02-06T22:19:01Z Bike: whatever, i'm sure you got it 2021-02-06T22:19:09Z puchacz: thanks :) 2021-02-06T22:19:10Z Bike quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-06T22:19:21Z puchacz: very very helpful things you said 2021-02-06T22:19:50Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-06T22:20:14Z puchacz: (the executor may have been created long time ago but my closure may be executed 0.5 ms after being put on the queue, which is what matters I think) 2021-02-06T22:20:18Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-06T22:20:47Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-06T22:21:02Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-06T22:22:59Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-06T22:23:50Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T22:30:21Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp 2021-02-06T22:36:27Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-06T22:49:09Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-06T22:49:09Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T22:51:54Z puchacz: why does (sb-thread:barrier ...) macro accept a body? the manual says the body is executed before the barrier, so can I just put (sb-thread:barrier :write) and would it mean that all writes before this form will be completed before any write is executed after this form? in another word, it seems to me that I never need to put any body into this 2021-02-06T22:51:54Z puchacz: macro and use it exactly like I would use lispworks' (sys:ensure-stores-after-stores). 2021-02-06T22:52:28Z puchacz: similarly with (sb-tread:barrier :read) macro with no body being exactly equivalent of lispworks' form  (sys:ensure-loads-after-loads) 2021-02-06T22:52:53Z puchacz: they have an example here, at the bottom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/LW/html/lw-152.htm 2021-02-06T22:53:29Z puchacz: there seems to be nothing special about the body I can put into sbcl's macros 2021-02-06T22:56:23Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T22:57:10Z [d] joined #lisp 2021-02-06T22:57:39Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-06T22:58:46Z arthur_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T22:58:53Z arthur_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-06T22:59:29Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T22:59:59Z cl-arthur joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:00:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T23:00:34Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:03:56Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T23:05:33Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:15:19Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T23:17:20Z louis771 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-02-06T23:18:47Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:20:24Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:25:21Z sunset_NOVA quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-06T23:25:31Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-06T23:26:05Z asarch quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T23:26:27Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:33:34Z equwal_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:33:34Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T23:36:06Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:43:50Z equwal_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.1 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-06T23:44:01Z equwal_ joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:44:09Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-06T23:46:25Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:47:37Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:52:54Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:54:45Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-06T23:55:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:56:39Z dtman34 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T23:58:44Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-06T23:59:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-06T23:59:31Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-07T00:00:05Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T00:01:22Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-02-07T00:03:36Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-07T00:04:38Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-07T00:05:52Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-07T00:12:47Z dtman34 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T00:14:35Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T00:15:45Z thmprover: Say, is there a good overview of the "instruction set" of a Lisp Machine? 2021-02-07T00:16:02Z dtman34 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T00:16:16Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T00:20:02Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-07T00:21:24Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-07T00:21:42Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-07T00:29:45Z dtman34 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T00:30:10Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T00:30:27Z luis: thmprover: first google result: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/cadr/Knight-LISP_Machine_Macro_Instruction_Set-1979.pdf 2021-02-07T00:31:17Z luis: not sure if that's what you're looking for, though 2021-02-07T00:31:35Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-02-07T00:34:00Z luis: maybe http://www.unlambda.com/lispm/memo528.html 2021-02-07T00:34:07Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T00:34:08Z jt_ joined #lisp 2021-02-07T00:34:22Z thmprover: luis: ah, I should be more precise, I mean a Symbolics Lisp Machine. 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I should have looked at the I-machine's documentation for its macroinstruction set 2021-02-07T01:36:15Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-07T01:38:35Z dtman34 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-07T01:39:34Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T01:39:43Z Josh_2`` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T01:41:45Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T01:41:51Z Josh_2` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-07T01:45:12Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T01:46:16Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-07T01:46:59Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-07T01:51:26Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-07T02:01:05Z shoshin quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-07T02:03:11Z fubbiquantz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T02:03:14Z shoshin8 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T02:05:03Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-07T02:07:40Z shoshin8 is now known as shoshin 2021-02-07T02:13:02Z dtman34 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-07T02:13:27Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T02:14:42Z shoshin quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-07T02:15:53Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-07T02:17:20Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-07T02:18:45Z dtman34 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-07T02:20:06Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T02:31:14Z greaser|q quit (Changing host) 2021-02-07T02:31:14Z greaser|q joined #lisp 2021-02-07T02:31:16Z greaser|q is now known as GreaseMonkey 2021-02-07T02:40:16Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T02:43:56Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T02:44:01Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-07T02:47:27Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T02:47:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T02:47:49Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T02:51:22Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T02:56:57Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-07T02:57:56Z logand``` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T03:00:12Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-07T03:01:58Z logand`` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T03:02:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-07T03:04:13Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-07T03:06:58Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-07T03:09:17Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-07T03:13:00Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T03:16:44Z catt joined #lisp 2021-02-07T03:21:21Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-07T03:24:08Z Josh_2`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T03:25:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T03:56:52Z shoshin7 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T04:01:20Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-07T04:03:50Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-07T04:05:12Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-07T04:10:50Z Etothepiiminus1 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T04:11:23Z zdm: beach: I feel excluded, its not morning here. 2021-02-07T04:12:22Z Etothepiiminus1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T04:12:27Z beach: zdm: Oh, you need to look into UGT, Universal Greeting Time. 2021-02-07T04:13:47Z zdm: beach: Heh, I like that 2021-02-07T04:14:37Z beach: zdm: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2021-02-07T04:16:32Z zdm: beach: I've been before but never regularly, so I might as well be new. 2021-02-07T04:16:51Z beach: I see. 2021-02-07T04:17:25Z beach: So what brings you to #lisp? 2021-02-07T04:19:35Z zdm: To passively learn as I have the buffer open from time to time, and maybe ask some questions when I start learning CL again, though maybe that'd be more appropriate for #clschool. 2021-02-07T04:20:43Z beach: I wouldn't worry about that. You will be told if you prompt too lengthy discussions about trivial stuff. 2021-02-07T04:24:24Z shoshin7 is now known as shoshin 2021-02-07T04:25:09Z Etothepiiminus1 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T04:26:21Z Etothepiiminus1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T04:29:11Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T04:29:15Z jpli quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T04:32:36Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-07T04:45:08Z White_Flame: discussions about trivial-* stuff are fine ;) 2021-02-07T04:59:59Z vegansbane6963 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T05:00:57Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-07T05:01:15Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-02-07T05:02:07Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T05:04:50Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-07T05:07:55Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-07T05:16:56Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-07T05:25:07Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2021-02-07T05:27:00Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T05:29:31Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-07T05:30:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-07T05:32:46Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-07T05:32:47Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-02-07T05:33:44Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T05:35:56Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-07T05:38:49Z thmprover quit (Quit: Another long day's journey into night.) 2021-02-07T05:40:11Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T05:40:29Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-02-07T05:52:57Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T05:53:09Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-07T06:31:28Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-07T06:33:45Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-07T06:33:57Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T06:34:51Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T06:36:14Z rople quit (Quit: rople) 2021-02-07T06:40:53Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-07T06:41:33Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-07T06:57:27Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T06:57:48Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-02-07T07:11:35Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-07T07:21:09Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-07T07:25:04Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-07T07:33:55Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T07:36:41Z theothor` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T07:45:05Z catt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T07:48:19Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T07:53:18Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T08:03:02Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T08:07:05Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T08:10:18Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-07T08:12:33Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-07T08:14:24Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-07T08:16:04Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-07T08:17:35Z Nilby: beach: I don't know if you've seen, but Alan Dipert gives you & your work & papers some great praise in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Q9ew9JH_U 2021-02-07T08:19:05Z beach: I hadn't seen that. Thanks for pointing it out. 2021-02-07T08:20:18Z beach: Oh, it's a long presentation. I'll watch it in smaller chunks. 2021-02-07T08:22:33Z Nilby: starting at about 53 mins 2021-02-07T08:26:03Z Nilby: otherwise it's not much new content for CL people, except that clojure people are saying nice things 2021-02-07T08:26:14Z beach: Ah, OK. Thanks. 2021-02-07T08:39:58Z gj joined #lisp 2021-02-07T08:40:30Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-07T08:44:21Z cl-arthur quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-07T08:54:12Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-07T08:54:33Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T08:54:34Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-07T09:03:38Z gj: hello 2021-02-07T09:06:08Z beach: Hello gj. 2021-02-07T09:06:43Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-07T09:07:31Z beach: gj: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2021-02-07T09:07:51Z gj: yep, i am new here 2021-02-07T09:08:06Z beach: Great! Welcome! What brings you to #lisp? 2021-02-07T09:08:21Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T09:08:43Z gj: oh not much at all, i have been learning common lisp for a few weeks now and think it is great. 2021-02-07T09:10:59Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-07T09:11:10Z beach: Oh, good! 2021-02-07T09:12:45Z beach: What language(s) did you use before, if any? 2021-02-07T09:13:27Z gj: first freeBASIC, then Python. 2021-02-07T09:13:37Z beach: I see. 2021-02-07T09:14:48Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-07T09:15:52Z Nilby: after over 2k weeks i still think it's great. 2021-02-07T09:16:02Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-02-07T09:16:24Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-07T09:16:28Z beach: So 4 years or so? 2021-02-07T09:16:55Z Nilby: more like 40 2021-02-07T09:17:07Z beach: Oops. Heh! :) 2021-02-07T09:18:06Z beach: Hold on though, Common Lisp has not been around that long, at least not the standard. 2021-02-07T09:19:01Z beach: Did you use pre-ANSI Common Lisp before? 2021-02-07T09:19:21Z Nilby: i think the first was on pdp8 or pdp10 lisp? 2021-02-07T09:20:03Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-07T09:20:05Z phantomics quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T09:20:35Z beach: Oh, so we count pre-CL Lisps. 2021-02-07T09:20:52Z beach: Then I get roughly the same number for myself. 2021-02-07T09:21:15Z Nilby: hmmm, I wonder what's the first CL I used 2021-02-07T09:21:22Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-07T09:22:36Z Nilby: i guess it was using the new CL features in symbolics lisp, what ever years that was 2021-02-07T09:24:21Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-02-07T09:24:23Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-07T09:26:09Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T09:27:27Z kini joined #lisp 2021-02-07T09:27:41Z Nilby: i think i might need another 40 years to finish my projects, too bad i spent so much time with other langauges 2021-02-07T09:28:21Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-07T09:33:37Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T09:34:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-07T09:34:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-02-07T09:34:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-07T09:37:41Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-07T09:48:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-07T09:52:50Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-07T09:55:13Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-07T09:56:27Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T09:58:26Z frgo quit 2021-02-07T09:58:37Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T10:02:47Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T10:07:57Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-02-07T10:10:28Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-07T10:12:45Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T10:13:28Z scymtym__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T10:13:59Z heisig: The FOSDEM talk "A Lisp REPL as my main shell" starts in five minutes: https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/lisprepl/ 2021-02-07T10:14:04Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-07T10:15:54Z ck_: neat, thanks for the reminder 2021-02-07T10:18:53Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T10:20:52Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-02-07T10:21:03Z cl-arthur joined #lisp 2021-02-07T10:22:44Z flip214: gj: anything we can help with, or did you join just out of curiosity? 2021-02-07T10:22:47Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T10:22:51Z kini joined #lisp 2021-02-07T10:29:55Z gj: not at the moment, no. 2021-02-07T10:29:58Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-07T10:30:17Z gj: thank you for asking! i will ask if there is anything i need help with. 2021-02-07T10:32:57Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-07T10:33:01Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-07T10:35:25Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-07T10:44:03Z skapata quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-07T10:45:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-07T10:46:27Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-02-07T10:47:42Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T10:51:15Z ioa: heisig, that was a brilliant talk! :) 2021-02-07T10:52:01Z ioa: Although I am excited about all the talks in this room today :D 2021-02-07T10:52:26Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-07T10:55:39Z heisig: ioa: Absolutely. WebAssembly, s-expression diffs, Guix, Nyxt, ... 2021-02-07T10:57:07Z ioa: YEAY! :D 2021-02-07T10:58:21Z ioa: "s-expression diffs" what a brilliant idea, extra "can't wait" points for that ^^ 2021-02-07T10:58:45Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T10:59:27Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-07T11:00:21Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-07T11:02:23Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:02:29Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:05:39Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:13:52Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-07T11:16:48Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:17:13Z iskander quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T11:18:31Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:29:28Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:30:18Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-07T11:38:50Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-07T11:47:57Z ioa: This is by far the easiest to follow presentation of webassembly!! Any webassembly newbies here watching to confirm? :) 2021-02-07T11:51:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T11:52:37Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-07T11:53:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:54:01Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:54:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T11:54:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:54:53Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T11:54:55Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:55:03Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:55:43Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T11:57:38Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T11:59:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:05:43Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:06:33Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-07T12:09:13Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:14:06Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-07T12:17:23Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:20:48Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:21:29Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T12:22:46Z kini joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:23:49Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:23:51Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T12:25:42Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-07T12:26:07Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:27:28Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-07T12:29:02Z ioa: sexp diff --> I feel the need to work on this ^^ brilliant 2021-02-07T12:30:52Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:31:48Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:40:43Z kpoeck quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-07T12:41:10Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:42:16Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T12:42:58Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-07T12:46:12Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:47:48Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T12:51:10Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:52:57Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T12:55:07Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:55:47Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T12:55:48Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T13:00:48Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-07T13:01:45Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-07T13:05:34Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:15:42Z Colleen quit (Quit: Colleen) 2021-02-07T13:16:52Z Colleen joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:21:26Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-07T13:25:45Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:27:08Z luis0 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:30:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-07T13:31:18Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:35:46Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:37:34Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-07T13:37:34Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T13:38:45Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:38:50Z IPmonger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T13:39:55Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:43:37Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T13:43:44Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:44:45Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T13:48:16Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T13:51:08Z domovod joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:54:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T13:55:52Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:55:53Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:56:01Z nij: Any package that helps with sentence parsing? 2021-02-07T13:56:37Z nij: (parse "I have a\n little \t dog, and you?") ==> ("I" "have" "a" "little" "dog" "," "and" "you" "?") 2021-02-07T13:56:46Z nij: ^ as an example ^ 2021-02-07T13:56:53Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-07T13:58:53Z IPmonger quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-07T13:59:15Z ioa: you can do that with split-sequence: https://www.cliki.net/SPLIT-SEQUENCE 2021-02-07T13:59:35Z ioa: here is a list of more general parser libraries: https://cliki.net/parser%20generator 2021-02-07T13:59:56Z ioa: ^ nij 2021-02-07T14:00:36Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-02-07T14:00:42Z ldb: good ebening 2021-02-07T14:01:05Z ioa: (you might need a second pass to extract the punctuation symbols) 2021-02-07T14:01:16Z ioa: ^ with split-sequence 2021-02-07T14:01:22Z ioa: hi ldb 2021-02-07T14:01:34Z nij: yeah might need a twist. thanks ioa :D 2021-02-07T14:01:38Z nij: good morning ldb 2021-02-07T14:03:04Z pve: nij: for tokenizing natural language you might want to look at some NLP library 2021-02-07T14:04:22Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-02-07T14:06:20Z pve: nij: When you say "sentence parsing", you actually mean "tokenization", parsing is a more complicated task. 2021-02-07T14:07:08Z ldb: so, as for the "not advocating use of terminal" thing, is it possible that, if I have another non Lisp program designed for terminal, I can now redirect the IO to SLY? 2021-02-07T14:08:16Z ldb: by communicating in appropriate sexp protocal 2021-02-07T14:10:10Z nij: pve: what is the general meaning of sentence parsing then ? 2021-02-07T14:10:52Z nij: ldb: i think you can redirect the IO by using uiop/run-program 2021-02-07T14:11:06Z nij: ah i'm not sure about I but O yes 2021-02-07T14:12:32Z nij: But do you have a terminal program that has I? Is that a repl or a server or somthing? 2021-02-07T14:16:51Z ldb: nij: it is an interactive repl 2021-02-07T14:17:44Z nij: If not from lisp or the terminal that's running it, how would you interact with it? 2021-02-07T14:18:05Z pve: nij: a process that results in one or more parse trees, or for shallow parsing a sequence of chunks ("chunking") 2021-02-07T14:18:23Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-07T14:18:54Z drdee joined #lisp 2021-02-07T14:19:11Z nij: pve: hm does sound complicated 2021-02-07T14:20:40Z ldb: nij: it is possible for me to change that program to adapt my need 2021-02-07T14:21:14Z pve: nij: depends entirely on what you want to accomplish, maybe split-sequence is enough for your task 2021-02-07T14:21:35Z nij: ldb: yeah then you can definitely use lisp to communicate with your program . not sure what's the cleanest way to do it. 2021-02-07T14:22:23Z nij: pve: I think so too. With some help of cl-ppcre. M trying :) 2021-02-07T14:23:02Z ldb racket is notoriously slow btw 2021-02-07T14:23:04Z IPmonger quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-07T14:23:15Z nij: racket lang? 2021-02-07T14:24:16Z ldb: yes, worse than python in (for performance) my opinion 2021-02-07T14:24:25Z nij: how about cl? 2021-02-07T14:24:34Z Codaraxis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T14:26:56Z ldb: ccl is good for interactive development 2021-02-07T14:28:12Z ldb: sbcl usually takes longer to compile code, but is much better on numeric 2021-02-07T14:29:48Z nij: comparing to python? speedwise 2021-02-07T14:31:41Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-07T14:32:10Z ldb: usually, you cannot feel the difference between cl or python if just eval some expresions in repl 2021-02-07T14:32:54Z ldb: but for racket, you can feel that 0.1 sec delay after pressed return key 2021-02-07T14:33:48Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-07T14:34:42Z ldb: it's that worse 2021-02-07T14:40:41Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-02-07T14:44:59Z drdee quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-07T14:45:26Z beach: nij: I often see people say that Python is 50 times slower than SBCL for executing code. 2021-02-07T14:46:09Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T14:46:55Z beach: nij: drmeister once showed us a comparison between programming languages, concerning the energy used per computation unit. Common Lisp was pretty good and Python was really bad. I don't know how they did their measurements, though. 2021-02-07T14:47:18Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-07T14:47:24Z kini joined #lisp 2021-02-07T14:47:39Z IPmonger quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-07T14:51:43Z beach: Oh, it's a paper: "Energy Efficiency across Programming Languages". 2021-02-07T14:52:39Z Inline__ joined #lisp 2021-02-07T14:54:46Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-07T14:56:15Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T14:56:30Z IPmonger quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-07T14:57:47Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:01:00Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-07T15:05:17Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T15:05:33Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:06:24Z ldb quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-07T15:09:47Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:11:20Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T15:11:21Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T15:11:38Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:15:37Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T15:15:54Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:17:50Z luni71 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:18:59Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:20:43Z luni71 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-07T15:21:07Z nij: My code is awful: repeating a lot, not functional, unclean deconstructive method.. https://bpa.st/VE4F4 Any suggestion? 2021-02-07T15:21:34Z nij: I'm tempted to use macro, to abstract the syntax. But I think there's a better way to do it with functions. 2021-02-07T15:22:06Z phoe: what's string-? 2021-02-07T15:22:14Z _death: looks like you want REDUCE 2021-02-07T15:22:24Z nij: (string- "I have a dog" "a") => "I hve dog" 2021-02-07T15:23:19Z phoe: oooh, okay - then as _death mentioned, (reduce #'string- result ...) 2021-02-07T15:23:56Z nij: OH that's a way. Note taken. 2021-02-07T15:24:16Z beach: Or you can use LOOP if you prefer that. 2021-02-07T15:24:17Z nij: But to do it more functionally.. this is just to apply a sequence of functions on some element: 2021-02-07T15:24:21Z _death: but instead of reducing, you may REMOVE-IF 2021-02-07T15:24:25Z nij: (f4 (f3 (f2 (f1 x)))) 2021-02-07T15:24:37Z nij: beach: no no loop.. at least for now 2021-02-07T15:24:49Z beach: *sigh* 2021-02-07T15:24:59Z nij: so im thinking of using (magic-apply f_ '(1 2 3 4) x) 2021-02-07T15:25:06Z nij: beach: :( 2021-02-07T15:25:16Z phoe: nij: a sequence of functions? you can use alexandria:compose for that 2021-02-07T15:25:41Z phoe: but, uh 2021-02-07T15:25:58Z phoe: REDUCE is already as functional as you can get, completely zero side effects 2021-02-07T15:26:24Z nij: ok i will use reduce 2021-02-07T15:26:35Z nij: I just think that there's a general pattern lacking behind 2021-02-07T15:27:29Z beach: I suspect REDUCE is that pattern. 2021-02-07T15:27:47Z _death: (defun qstring- (x y) `(string- ,x ,y)) (reduce #'qstring- (list "\\." "\\?" "," ":" ";" "!" (string #\Newline)) :initial-value 'result) 2021-02-07T15:28:02Z phoe: (funcall (alexandria:compose #'prin1-to-string #'1+ #'-) 42) 2021-02-07T15:28:07Z phoe: ;=> "-41" 2021-02-07T15:28:21Z nij: yep REDUCE is that.. like Foldr 2021-02-07T15:28:36Z phoe: (f4 (f3 (f2 (f1 x)))) === (funcall (alexandria:compose #'f4 #'f3 #'f2 #'f1) x) 2021-02-07T15:28:58Z nij: phoe: almost! but f_ hasn't been abstractified yet 2021-02-07T15:29:09Z phoe: what's f_? 2021-02-07T15:29:29Z phoe: and what's magic-apply? 2021-02-07T15:29:30Z nij: (seq-apply (mapcar f_ '(1 2 3 4)) x) 2021-02-07T15:29:50Z nij: undefined, phoe :( 2021-02-07T15:29:54Z phoe: I still don't get it 2021-02-07T15:30:20Z phoe: what is f_ and why do you pass '(1 2 3 4) there? 2021-02-07T15:30:32Z nij: (f_ 1) => #'f1 2021-02-07T15:30:49Z phoe: oh, it grabs a fdefinition by name 2021-02-07T15:31:00Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:31:18Z nij: sequencial piping/filtering 2021-02-07T15:31:21Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T15:31:27Z phoe: (defun f_ (x) (fdefinition (intern (format nil "F~D" x)))) but I'd consider that dirty code 2021-02-07T15:31:51Z phoe: mostly because F1 F2 F3 F4 are ugly function names 2021-02-07T15:32:10Z nij: yeah i'm too used to curring :( 2021-02-07T15:32:27Z phoe: oh, alexandria:curry and alexandria:rcurry are there for you 2021-02-07T15:34:20Z Alfr: nij, does (mapcar (lambda (f) (funcall f x)) (mapcar #'f_ '(1 2 3 4))) do what you intend? Just a thought though. 2021-02-07T15:34:58Z nij: almost! i think i have a clue now 2021-02-07T15:35:01Z nij: writing it up 2021-02-07T15:36:15Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:37:20Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:37:25Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T15:38:21Z _death: (reduce #'funcall '(f1 f2 f3 f4) :initial-value arg :from-end t) 2021-02-07T15:38:22Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T15:41:41Z nij: yeah reduce is the cleanest way so far 2021-02-07T15:41:47Z nij: (still writing my own @@) 2021-02-07T15:44:11Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2021-02-07T15:46:14Z nij: https://bpa.st/O5CD2 2021-02-07T15:46:31Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:47:06Z nij: pipe flow chart: 2021-02-07T15:47:28Z nij: '(1 2 3 4) -> (f4 f3 f2 f1) -> (f4 (f3 (f2 (f1 _)))) 2021-02-07T15:48:13Z nij: But it seems terrible to write this in CL as it is lisp-2, uses unnative currying, .. and the lambdas crowded the space up real quick. 2021-02-07T15:50:36Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:50:57Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-07T15:52:05Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-07T15:53:06Z cl-arthur: nij: why not just make string- take a set of marks instead of a mark. 2021-02-07T15:54:25Z nij: cl-arthur: the end of that is what i want 2021-02-07T15:54:34Z nij: right? it's exactly (f4 (f3 (f2 (f1 _)))) 2021-02-07T15:55:03Z nij: I'm just autistically trying to build your string- from a simpler block @@ 2021-02-07T15:55:57Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-07T15:56:52Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T15:57:09Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-07T15:58:43Z nij: phoe: I think what I really want here is some sort of monadic arrows. 2021-02-07T15:59:05Z phoe: what sort of syntax are you thinking of? 2021-02-07T15:59:12Z nij: we have (-<> stuff (form <>)) already 2021-02-07T15:59:16Z cl-arthur: depends on the order your #'compose works - might be you're doing (f1 (f2 (f3 (f4 _)))). 2021-02-07T16:00:08Z nij: (dual-apply x (list-<> stuffs (form <>))) 2021-02-07T16:00:22Z nij: oh no sorry hold on the last one is incorrect 2021-02-07T16:00:44Z phoe: please give me a concrete example, I don't know what X or LIST-<> or STUFFS or FORM is 2021-02-07T16:01:23Z _death: if your goal is to obfuscate matters.. 2021-02-07T16:01:27Z Nilby: nij: are you trying to remove the punctuation? 2021-02-07T16:01:43Z nij: Nilby: yes.. there're many ways indeed 2021-02-07T16:01:51Z Nilby: like: (remove-if (_ (position _ ".,?!")) "I have a dog, and you? Nope.") 2021-02-07T16:01:54Z nij: but i'm also hoping for a better (subjectively) syntax 2021-02-07T16:02:45Z nij: (list-<> '(1 2 3 4) (f_ <>)) ; => '(f1 f2 f3 f4) 2021-02-07T16:02:50Z Nilby: I feel like you might be over thinking it. 2021-02-07T16:03:03Z nij: (transform x '(f1 f2 f3 f4)) ; => (f4 (f3 (f2 (f1 x)))) 2021-02-07T16:03:25Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Quit: brb...) 2021-02-07T16:03:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T16:04:11Z nij: yeah......ok :-( I will just use reduce.. 2021-02-07T16:04:17Z phoe: TRANSFORM is gonna be REDUCE though 2021-02-07T16:04:58Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T16:05:18Z cl-arthur: practically reimplementing (a subset of) reduce from the looks of it, yup 2021-02-07T16:05:39Z phoe: (defun transform (initial-value functions) (reduce #'funcall functions :initial-value initial-value :from-end t)) 2021-02-07T16:05:45Z nij: yep 2021-02-07T16:05:51Z nij: I need to put this in my box. 2021-02-07T16:06:05Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp 2021-02-07T16:06:08Z nij: I think reduce is a little bit too abstract for me.. even if they are the same 2021-02-07T16:06:24Z nij: mathematically I'm thinking of elements as dots and functions as arrows 2021-02-07T16:06:34Z nij: and the dots should pass through the arrows, which can be combined 2021-02-07T16:06:50Z nij: but that's just another perspective. i should try to do it in a more lispy way 2021-02-07T16:06:54Z nij: so sure.. use REDUCE! 2021-02-07T16:06:55Z phoe: you have been corrupted by haskell 2021-02-07T16:07:10Z nij: not haskell, but pure math 2021-02-07T16:07:27Z phoe: close enough. 2021-02-07T16:07:43Z nij: well actually haskell has this stuff too, it's called foldr, foldl 2021-02-07T16:08:05Z nij: i just feel uncomfortable putting elements and functions at the same level 2021-02-07T16:08:13Z phoe: what do you mean, the same level? 2021-02-07T16:11:11Z cl-arthur: pretty sure you can do arbitrary operations on functions in math too (e.g. differentiation maps functions to functions) 2021-02-07T16:11:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T16:12:44Z nij: phoe: for example, with reduce the syntax looks like (reduce #'combine '(x f1 f2 f3 f4)) 2021-02-07T16:13:03Z nij: where (combine X F) => (F X) 2021-02-07T16:13:19Z nij: but then x and the functions fn's are put in the same list 2021-02-07T16:13:50Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-07T16:14:05Z _death: so use :initial-value 2021-02-07T16:14:11Z phoe: ^ 2021-02-07T16:14:13Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-07T16:14:16Z phoe: also, wanna see something scary? 2021-02-07T16:14:16Z nij: yes that makes it seem better 2021-02-07T16:14:24Z nij: phoe: please! 2021-02-07T16:14:59Z phoe: nij: (list 1 "2" :three "four" 'five #(6) (lambda () 7) '(8) (alexandria:plist-hash-table '(9 10))) 2021-02-07T16:15:29Z nij: lol 2021-02-07T16:15:29Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T16:15:49Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-07T16:16:00Z phoe: the nightmares that programmers used to statically typed languages sometimes have 2021-02-07T16:16:25Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T16:16:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T16:16:55Z nij: hehe 2021-02-07T16:16:57Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T16:17:28Z phoe: but, yes, :initial-value is there for you for when you want to avoid mixing types in your sequences 2021-02-07T16:17:41Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-02-07T16:17:58Z phoe: because I assumed that you wanted to keep '(f1 f2 f3 f4) to be a list of symbols, and you want x to be arbitrary data 2021-02-07T16:18:07Z phoe: s/assumed/assume/ 2021-02-07T16:20:45Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T16:21:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-07T16:23:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T16:24:06Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-07T16:26:22Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-07T16:26:23Z albusp 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First I thought in "unification" but miniKanren is more than that, it's full relational programming. Any suggestions? (cc. phoe) In their website (minikanren.org) they say "miniKanren is an embedded Domain Specific Language for logic programming." 2021-02-07T17:49:29Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T17:50:04Z ioa: FYI this is a list of Kanren implementations: http://minikanren.org/#implementations There are 5 in common-lisp, although the first one already seems abandoned. :( (checking the rest now) 2021-02-07T17:56:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T17:57:31Z ioa: The 2nd one is in "trying to implement miniKanren stage". Can't find the 3rd one. The 4th one just has 2 commits 3 years ago and no comments anywhere, will have to try if it works. And the 5th one is using the first one. :( :( :( This is sad. 2021-02-07T17:57:36Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:01:36Z ioa: I guess then I'll have to try them out first, to see which ones work. Then I'll think about adding info to Cliki. Any opinions on my original question are welcome! 2021-02-07T18:01:50Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:02:10Z frodef`` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:03:19Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:03:21Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-07T18:04:01Z Lycurgus quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-07T18:04:17Z zmagii left #lisp 2021-02-07T18:05:16Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:05:49Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-07T18:07:05Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-07T18:09:20Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:13:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T18:16:50Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-07T18:17:08Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T18:18:38Z Fare joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:21:52Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T18:22:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:25:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T18:25:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:25:44Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:26:38Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T18:32:37Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-07T18:38:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T18:39:11Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:40:19Z jpli joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:42:00Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:42:25Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:48:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T18:48:48Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:51:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T18:51:33Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:52:22Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:53:01Z Colleen quit (Quit: Colleen) 2021-02-07T18:53:28Z Colleen joined #lisp 2021-02-07T18:53:58Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-07T18:59:16Z albusp: I'm trying to (require) one of my modules from a file, and it had been already (load)ed from somewhere else, but I get the "don't know how to require" error. Should I try (provide)ing all my module files at the top, so that (require) can find them? 2021-02-07T19:01:57Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:03:24Z _death: better to use asdf 2021-02-07T19:03:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T19:03:43Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:04:47Z _death: require is implementation-dependent, so we can't say much about your issue without knowing which implementation you use.. that's one of its issues 2021-02-07T19:04:47Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T19:04:57Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:05:21Z albusp: _death: I've heard that. Also I've read somewhere that if filename is same as the module you don't need to provide? 2021-02-07T19:05:43Z albusp: _death: this case is sbcl 2021-02-07T19:06:57Z _death: the sbcl manual has a paragraph about behavior of require (in section 7.9) 2021-02-07T19:07:41Z _death: nobody really uses it, so I'm not sure why you want to 2021-02-07T19:07:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T19:07:53Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-07T19:08:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:08:23Z albusp: Also, CLHS notes that provide and require are deprecated. Is CLHS pointing people to seek an alternative? Is ASDF the obvious answer? 2021-02-07T19:08:58Z _death: in the last decade or so, yes, asdf is pretty much the obvious answer 2021-02-07T19:08:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T19:10:40Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:10:41Z domovod quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-07T19:12:38Z Nilby: albusp: I reccomend installing Quicklisp, copying a simple projects .asd file, altering for your thing, and symbolic linking it into ~/quicklisp/local-projects. If you're interested, later you could read the rather convoluted asdf manual. 2021-02-07T19:14:25Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T19:14:46Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T19:15:36Z Nilby: or if you're just starting with simple things you can get by with just manually usaing "load" and/or compile-file 2021-02-07T19:16:19Z _death: the other day I saw someone post to the LISA (project from 2000 that's similar to production systems from the 1980s, with certainty factors and all ;) mailing list about creating a fork.. I check it out and nostalgy overflows as I open https://github.com/gpwwjr/LISA/blob/main/misc/asdf.lisp 2021-02-07T19:16:20Z aartaka_d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T19:16:37Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:17:32Z albusp: thanks Nilby. I have this simple structure, a couple of packages with some hierarchy, and don't want to load the same package multiple times. I think I'm getting some success by adding provide to the end of the package files. It feels clean this way. 2021-02-07T19:19:07Z Nilby: _death: wow. simpler times. #:hyperdocumentation 2021-02-07T19:20:29Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:22:57Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:26:41Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:27:34Z Nilby: albusp: yes, I like the simplicity too. I even made my own require a long time ago. it's just a little quirky between implementations, and where/when it looks for files. And then there's the issue of compiling and compiler output. 2021-02-07T19:31:28Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-07T19:31:35Z Nilby: _death: also the #+nil thing use to get triggered by trivial-features 2021-02-07T19:31:55Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:33:05Z _death: what do you mean (about trivial-features) 2021-02-07T19:35:19Z Nilby: trivial-features would push NIL on *features* on some old obscure platforms that i used, activating crazy dead code 2021-02-07T19:35:38Z Nilby: and the #+nil joke in old asdf 2021-02-07T19:36:05Z _death: nasty 2021-02-07T19:37:21Z Nilby: it was maddening until I realized what was going on, 2021-02-07T19:38:00Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:38:09Z Nilby: i still have in my .lisprc : (when (find :nil *features*) (error "NIL is in features!")) 2021-02-07T19:38:12Z _death: looking at asdf.lisp, the only place #+nil is used other than that smartassism is in *central-registry*.. which I guess could be modified in the implementation's rc file or something :) 2021-02-07T19:39:53Z Nilby: (push nil *features*) is yet another episode of "survive this sexp" 2021-02-07T19:41:16Z _death: reminds me of people changing *read-default-float-format* in a general context 2021-02-07T19:42:11Z _death: all is fine, until some code with single-float declarations and safety 0 nudges you into insanity because someone passed 5.31 to it 2021-02-07T19:42:11Z Nilby: yes, another good one 2021-02-07T19:43:04Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-07T19:43:07Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:43:42Z Nilby: wow, let's keep everything rationals 2021-02-07T19:44:24Z _death: speaking of rationals, what about them integers? 2021-02-07T19:44:53Z _death: why does GCD not work on integers? 2021-02-07T19:45:03Z _death: I mean Gaussian integers of course 2021-02-07T19:45:15Z Nilby: exactly 2021-02-07T19:45:15Z _death: we need a new CL standard.. 2021-02-07T19:45:53Z Nilby: agree 2021-02-07T19:46:16Z Nilby: we now see how the numeric tower can crumble 2021-02-07T19:46:56Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:47:05Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T19:50:08Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:50:08Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T19:50:16Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:50:16Z Nilby: i think we should recode the numeric tower in p-adic church primes 2021-02-07T19:50:57Z phoe: Nilby: (push nil *features*) won't work 2021-02-07T19:51:09Z _death: :nil 2021-02-07T19:51:12Z phoe: you need to push :nil because #+ looks in the KEYWORD package which does not import CL:NIL 2021-02-07T19:51:45Z _death: the defensive nil'er uses #+cl:nil 2021-02-07T19:52:21Z Nilby is patching the "survive this sexp" game repo 2021-02-07T19:55:05Z abhixec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T19:55:06Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T19:55:16Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T19:56:19Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-07T19:56:21Z albusp: How can we tell lisp to ignore an undefined symbol for a class slot? I have this example and my-fn gives an obvious warning: https://www.codepile.net/pile/Ajy2W4QP 2021-02-07T19:58:45Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-07T19:58:59Z luis0 is now known as luis 2021-02-07T19:59:06Z Bike: even if you compile-file this whole thing? 2021-02-07T19:59:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:00:22Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T20:00:50Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:01:26Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:04:49Z theothor` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-07T20:04:56Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:05:14Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:05:51Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-07T20:06:31Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-07T20:06:57Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-07T20:09:08Z dtman34 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-07T20:09:16Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T20:11:52Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:14:33Z albusp: Bike: it doesn't after compile 2021-02-07T20:18:57Z phoe: albusp: if you are loading the file, then define my-fn earlier 2021-02-07T20:19:10Z phoe: if you are compiling the whole file, then this should be a non-issue 2021-02-07T20:19:18Z albusp: then the class is not defined warning for the function 2021-02-07T20:19:36Z phoe: class is not defined? what do you mean 2021-02-07T20:19:47Z phoe: MY-FN does not make use of class A in any way 2021-02-07T20:20:29Z albusp: sorry s2 not defined if function is before 2021-02-07T20:20:57Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-07T20:21:25Z albusp: This is an example case of the cyclic definition I have 2021-02-07T20:21:25Z phoe: S2 does not need to be defined, it is a slot name 2021-02-07T20:21:33Z phoe: which implementation and version are you using? 2021-02-07T20:22:30Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2282#2282 2021-02-07T20:22:33Z phoe: no error for me 2021-02-07T20:22:42Z phoe: no warning for me 2021-02-07T20:22:46Z phoe: everything is clean 2021-02-07T20:23:05Z albusp: goodness my example was bad. Actually I should've added an accessor for s2. Let me fix 2021-02-07T20:23:50Z albusp: this is a better example: https://www.codepile.net/pile/b1MxEPpY 2021-02-07T20:25:04Z phoe: I never really worry about such things, because I compile whole files most of the time 2021-02-07T20:25:08Z phoe: or rather, ASDF does it for me 2021-02-07T20:25:59Z jt_ joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:25:59Z phoe: I'd compile the file and then load the resulting FASL to get the goodness of having the compiler treat the whole file as a compilation unit 2021-02-07T20:26:54Z jt_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T20:28:24Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:29:54Z dtman34 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-07T20:30:48Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:31:32Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:32:36Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:34:34Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:36:07Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T20:36:22Z kpoeck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T20:36:23Z [d] joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:36:37Z cl-arthu1 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:38:01Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-07T20:39:18Z dtman34 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-07T20:39:27Z cl-arthur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-07T20:40:34Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:40:40Z albusp: phoe: thanks for checking. oh well, you're probably right, don't worry. I was wondering if an ignorable declaration is possible with slots 2021-02-07T20:42:20Z _death: you can wrap your load form with with-compilation-unit, that may help 2021-02-07T20:42:46Z dtman34 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-07T20:44:26Z Inline__ is now known as Inline 2021-02-07T20:45:21Z pve: I'm wondering if there is an established technique to "scan" a stream for a string that would correspond to the characters READ would have consumed. 2021-02-07T20:45:28Z [d]: <_​death#0000> you can wrap your load form with with-compilation-unit, that may help 2021-02-07T20:45:29Z pve: Silly example: (with-input-from-string (s "( 123 ) some more stuff") (scan s)) => "( 123 )" 2021-02-07T20:45:29Z [d]: I'm wondering if there is an established technique to "scan" a stream for a string that would correspond to the characters READ would have consumed. 2021-02-07T20:45:30Z [d]: phoe: thanks for checking. oh well, you're probably right, don't worry. I was wondering if an ignorable declaration is possible with slots 2021-02-07T20:45:31Z [d]: Silly example: (with-input-from-string (s "( 123 ) some more stuff") (scan s)) => "( 123 )" 2021-02-07T20:46:04Z [d]: <_​death#0000> [edit]: 2021-02-07T20:46:04Z [d]: [edit]: 2021-02-07T20:46:05Z [d]: [edit]: 2021-02-07T20:46:07Z [d]: [edit]: 2021-02-07T20:48:12Z _death: pve: maybe you can utilize read-from-string's second value 2021-02-07T20:49:04Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-07T20:49:24Z Bike quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-07T20:49:37Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-07T20:49:59Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:50:51Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:51:25Z pve: _death: Yes that would work, but I'm not sure I can collect everything in the stream up to EOF into a string.. need to investigate further 2021-02-07T20:51:50Z theothor` left #lisp 2021-02-07T20:52:01Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:52:28Z _death: oh, also check out make-echo-stream 2021-02-07T20:53:01Z pve: let me see 2021-02-07T20:53:12Z _death: (with-output-to-string (out) (with-input-from-string (stream "( 123 ) some more stuff") (let ((e (make-echo-stream stream out))) (read e)))) 2021-02-07T20:54:34Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-07T20:55:14Z pve: _death: thanks, you made my day :) 2021-02-07T20:57:34Z _death: I don't think I have any code that uses echo streams, so it's an interesting use case 2021-02-07T20:59:32Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-07T20:59:50Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-07T21:00:08Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-07T21:00:22Z anticrisis_ joined #lisp 2021-02-07T21:00:52Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T21:01:02Z Anonymous_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-07T21:01:31Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-07T21:02:26Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp 2021-02-07T21:02:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-07T21:03:08Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe 2021-02-07T21:03:10Z phoe has set mode +b *!*discord@*.hsd1.wa.comcast.net 2021-02-07T21:03:10Z [d] [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (this bridge bot is misconfigured and spams the channel - please fix it and then ask a mod to lift the ban) 2021-02-07T21:03:14Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe 2021-02-07T21:03:25Z anticrisis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-07T21:04:13Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-07T21:05:49Z phoe: Xach: was float-features updated for the recent quicklisp dist? 2021-02-07T21:06:18Z phoe: the Jan 2021 dist does not seem to have the most recent changes from https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features/blob/master/float-features.lisp that export e.g. SHORT-FLOAT-NAN 2021-02-07T21:10:50Z mfiano: phoe: That was commited before the dist release, but only merged yesterday 2021-02-07T21:11:28Z Xach: aha 2021-02-07T21:11:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-07T21:11:31Z Xach: i'm off the hook 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2021-02-08T02:02:36Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-08T02:09:02Z dbotton: There is nothing like working on a gui / web page etc and modifying it live with no need to reload etc I really love Common-Lisp, even just code in general is like modeling clay instead of flat paintings. 2021-02-08T02:09:16Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T02:09:42Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-08T02:11:09Z dbotton: No really point in saying this here, but just wanted to show gratitude for the help given me by everyone and the great tools you all work on 2021-02-08T02:12:27Z dbotton: Is there a way to setup a "secure" lisp image that will limit system access etc? 2021-02-08T02:13:05Z dbotton: It once where letting someone eval code doesn't propose a danger beyond a crash 2021-02-08T02:14:03Z dbotton: It once = one 2021-02-08T02:14:17Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T02:20:03Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-08T02:22:12Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-08T02:23:17Z impgourd quit 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But not in the sense of say, restricting which part of the filesystem a syscall can access 2021-02-08T03:19:21Z PuercoPop: *sicl did some work on that topic in the senese of ... 2021-02-08T03:20:33Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-08T03:20:46Z dbotton: Thanks 2021-02-08T03:21:57Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-08T03:22:59Z PuercoPop: There was a presenting about it a while back. https://youtube.com/watch?v=gE6SsLAZ4Mo&t=258 2021-02-08T03:26:26Z PuercoPop: For the other sense you could look into customizing SBCL's main entry point (check the file in src/runtime/main.c) and use OpenBSD's pledge for sandboxing 2021-02-08T03:28:10Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-08T03:39:22Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T03:39:47Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-08T03:43:52Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T03:46:58Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T03:49:37Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-08T03:50:43Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 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ey[m]: jackdaniel: thanks 2021-02-08T11:58:38Z jackdaniel: mind, that {short,single,double,long}-float /are not/ specified to be a builtin class, so if you do specialize a method on one of these the implementation may happily error for you (it probably won't though, because they are usefull not mandated builtin classes) 2021-02-08T12:01:26Z tassleoff_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T12:08:16Z Nilby: I used to think that not being able to specialize on something like (unsigned-byte 8) was terrible, but now I realize that the CL type system is TOO powerful, and the choices seem to be either dumb down the type system or slow down and confound CLOS with mostly pointless type matching backflips, so it's a reasonable compromise. 2021-02-08T12:10:18Z Nilby: that said I think it might be reasonable to add a few more builtin types 2021-02-08T12:12:25Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T12:17:14Z jackdaniel: (defmethod foo ((elt (satisfies foo))) …) 2021-02-08T12:21:25Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T12:22:54Z Nilby: Usually I like limitless power, but I'm fine with not being able to do that. 2021-02-08T12:23:35Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:23:43Z sveit quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-02-08T12:23:44Z simplegauss quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-02-08T12:25:09Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T12:25:13Z _death: reminded of https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/gf-cond.txt 2021-02-08T12:25:56Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:28:21Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:28:22Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T12:28:42Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:30:54Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-08T12:31:36Z shidima joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:35:06Z shidima: Is there a way to delete objects from my repl session? 2021-02-08T12:37:24Z sveit joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:37:55Z simplegauss joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:38:32Z _death: my first thought was (progn (setf ** (setf *** (setf // (setf /// nil)))) (sb-ext:gc :full t)) but maybe you mean something else ;) 2021-02-08T12:38:53Z jackdaniel: and slime-clear-all-presentations ,) 2021-02-08T12:39:09Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-08T12:39:33Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T12:41:55Z heisig: My favorite way of deleting objects is (change-class object 'deleted-object), where deleted-object is (defclass deleted-object ()). 2021-02-08T12:42:24Z heisig: It has the advantage that you can add 'finalizers' on update-instance-for-different-class :) 2021-02-08T12:42:50Z flip214: heisig: +1 2021-02-08T12:43:15Z flip214: the only problem is that security-sensitive slots in the old instance are not accessible anymore 2021-02-08T12:43:26Z flip214: to overwrite them, for example 2021-02-08T12:43:35Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:43:58Z jmercouris: happy Mollusk Monday! 2021-02-08T12:44:31Z heisig: flip214: What is a security-sensitive slot? 2021-02-08T12:45:07Z jackdaniel: (password :initform "very secret" :initarg :password :accessor %password #|accessor is obscured for security|#) ;-) 2021-02-08T12:45:59Z jmercouris: maybe the whole point is that they are slots without accessors in their slot definition and have hand-implemented accessors 2021-02-08T12:46:12Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:46:41Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T12:46:51Z _death: jackdaniel: I guess it should be (copy-seq "very secret").. then you (fill password #\*) 2021-02-08T12:47:02Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:47:23Z _death: and how do functional languages handle this? 2021-02-08T12:47:24Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T12:47:32Z jmercouris: what exactly? secrets? 2021-02-08T12:47:37Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:47:41Z _death: zeroing secrets 2021-02-08T12:47:51Z jmercouris: probably via IO I would guess 2021-02-08T12:47:54Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-08T12:48:04Z _death: not sure what you mean 2021-02-08T12:48:06Z jmercouris: the secret should never live in the VM of a functional language 2021-02-08T12:48:09Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T12:48:27Z jmercouris: I don't know how to express what I am thinking 2021-02-08T12:48:44Z aeth: _death: remove all references to it and force a GC? 2021-02-08T12:48:57Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:49:01Z jmercouris: I am kind of saying interact with it only via streams 2021-02-08T12:49:28Z _death: aeth: that doesn't ensure that the object is collected, or that memory is zeroed 2021-02-08T12:49:40Z heisig: The plan for SICL/CLOSOS is to use capabilities for such things. No capability for reading the password means you don't get to read the password. 2021-02-08T12:49:50Z flip214: there might well be accessors, it's just that their content should be removed lexically and not stay around in the heap, surfacing on a core dump or dump 2021-02-08T12:49:51Z aeth: _death: yeah, and it itself isn't a pure function 2021-02-08T12:50:31Z heisig: Zeroing a password sounds like protecting yourself against out-of-bounds reads. And why would any sane programming language allow that? 2021-02-08T12:50:31Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T12:50:49Z jmercouris: on the other hand, can we trust *any* memory? 2021-02-08T12:50:57Z _death: heisig: maybe against interprocess reads 2021-02-08T12:51:02Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:51:13Z jmercouris: we MUST have it in memory at some point to process it 2021-02-08T12:51:23Z jmercouris: unless you can process it as a stream char by char 2021-02-08T12:51:25Z aeth: heisig: Almost any non-trivial program to the point where you'd care about handling passwords is going to use CFFI, and the OS itself is basically one big CFFI. 2021-02-08T12:52:24Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T12:52:31Z jmercouris: I think if your system is compromised by some malicious actor, you are already out of luck 2021-02-08T12:52:37Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T12:52:38Z jmercouris: worrying about what exists in the stack is pointless 2021-02-08T12:52:51Z heisig: aeth: 1. I am trolling. 2. The plan for SICL/CLOSOS is to have all software written in Common Lisp and to have a reasonably trustworthy compiler. 2021-02-08T12:52:55Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:52:59Z flip214: heisig: I see it the same way as a lexical variable - that doesn't spill into outer scopes too, so why should my secret be visible more than necessary? 2021-02-08T12:53:41Z jmercouris: I don't think you should worry about it 2021-02-08T12:53:42Z flip214: heisig: even 2 is not enough - /proc/PID/mem or pulling the RAM might still leak secrets. 2021-02-08T12:53:43Z jonatack_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-08T12:53:47Z jmercouris: but that is just my 2 cents 2021-02-08T12:54:02Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:54:02Z jmercouris: you know what else could leak secrets? 2021-02-08T12:54:05Z jmercouris: being held hostage 2021-02-08T12:54:06Z aeth: jmercouris: Well, some degree of redundancy has a point. It's called defense in depth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_in_depth_(computing) 2021-02-08T12:54:15Z jmercouris: but it is wholly unnecessary to protect yourself against all eventualities 2021-02-08T12:54:34Z jmercouris: if someone can read the contents of ram, you are already fully compromised 2021-02-08T12:54:43Z jmercouris: it doesn't matter how careful you are 2021-02-08T12:54:53Z jmercouris: they could even alter the execution of your program to circumvent your guards 2021-02-08T12:55:12Z heisig: flip214: If you write your entire system in Common Lisp (which is the highly ambitious plan), there will be no /proc/PID/mem. 2021-02-08T12:55:25Z aeth: jmercouris: That requires them to alter the execution of your program, where we win via security by obscurity being #lisp 2021-02-08T12:55:26Z Nilby: be the kernel and only have the secret in registers, or don't let the secrets leave your enclave hardware 2021-02-08T12:55:40Z heisig: Freezing the RAM and pulling it out still works. But that is a much narrower attack vector. 2021-02-08T12:56:37Z Nilby: oh and make your own chip that doesn't include spyware 2021-02-08T12:56:57Z Nilby: like intel, amd and most arm 2021-02-08T12:57:16Z _death: heisig: it still matters.. the existence of tools like PANDA make it clear :) 2021-02-08T12:57:19Z Codaraxis_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-08T12:57:47Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T12:58:29Z jmercouris: P A N D A 2021-02-08T12:58:32Z _death: or rather, Volatility.. I always confuse the names 2021-02-08T12:58:42Z jmercouris: V O L A T I L I T Y 2021-02-08T12:59:20Z jmercouris: you know, ultimately at the end of the day, we are running on multi user/multi process systems 2021-02-08T12:59:24Z jmercouris: there is no such thing as security in this case 2021-02-08T12:59:40Z jmercouris: any compromised program can bring down the whole system 2021-02-08T12:59:44Z _death: probably because I first encountered them in this post https://moyix.blogspot.com/2014/07/breaking-spotify-drm-with-panda.html 2021-02-08T13:00:28Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-08T13:01:47Z kini joined #lisp 2021-02-08T13:05:51Z flip214: heisig: plan to have a MOVfuscator compiler plugin as well 2021-02-08T13:07:31Z heisig: The computing system I really want (and for which I'm willing to work a few decades) runs only safe code (preferably CL) and free software (as in, the compiler maintains a bidirectional mapping between any piece of assembler and the corresponding source code). 2021-02-08T13:08:23Z heisig: The main way of protecting myself from malicious code in such an environment would be to only run code from trusted parties. And if they try to fool me once, they are not a trusted party anymore. 2021-02-08T13:08:27Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T13:09:26Z heisig: If everyone did that, we would have very few exploits. A developer would have to sacrifice his entire reputation to roll out an exploit, and they might still get caught by some review process. 2021-02-08T13:10:11Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-08T13:10:11Z flip214: heisig: yeah, but as long as there are quite anonymous ways (github account is cheap) that won't really help 2021-02-08T13:10:33Z flip214: you just need an AI to produce a few thousand good-looking commits against some repo to build a reputation 2021-02-08T13:10:48Z Nilby: heisig: I agree, but sadly I don't trust firmware either 2021-02-08T13:12:08Z heisig: I know, what I describe is essentially sci-fi. But if enough people work on it, we could reach that state eventually. 2021-02-08T13:12:15Z _death: heisig: maybe my early background of reverse engineering is responsible, but it always seemed strange to me to talk about "source code" in relation to free software.. disassembling meant I could read, modify, and share the code, even if it's not the "source code".. and free software could be about permission to do just those things, without reference to a "source code" 2021-02-08T13:12:48Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T13:13:08Z _death: is DISASSEMBLE not enough? ;) 2021-02-08T13:13:23Z heisig: Nilby: Neither do I. But we cannot stop fixing the world of software just because we haven't solved every other problem yet. 2021-02-08T13:14:24Z Nilby: heisig: agree. I've been try for years to replace as much of my stack with CL as possible. I wonder how far I have left to go. 2021-02-08T13:14:36Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-08T13:15:47Z Nilby: _death: I have a habit of code reviewing binaries, but it's harder, and i'm usually less condifdent 2021-02-08T13:16:07Z _death: Nilby: for many years HIEW was my anti virus :) 2021-02-08T13:16:10Z heisig: _death: The FSF defines source code as the 'preferred form for modification'. I hope assembler is not your preferred representation for modifying software :) 2021-02-08T13:16:55Z _death: heisig: I understand.. it's mostly a tongue-in-cheek rant.. 2021-02-08T13:17:03Z Nilby: _death: nice. that thing is awesome 2021-02-08T13:17:46Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-08T13:21:17Z Codaraxis_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-08T13:21:46Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T13:23:14Z lukego: I'm just having my first serious look at SCREAMER. It's pretty cool, right? 2021-02-08T13:23:54Z _death: lukego: yeah.. 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I'm currently using ffmpeg but would like to get rid of bashism :P 2021-02-08T14:40:35Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-08T14:40:45Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T14:41:05Z rogersm: Is there any way to return-form from a lambda without using block? 2021-02-08T14:41:06Z minion: rogersm, memo from phoe: there is a little bit of inspector usage in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkqQq2Hwt5o 2021-02-08T14:41:06Z minion: rogersm, memo from beach: I recommend you use Clouseau instead. It is way more competent than the SLIME inspector. 2021-02-08T14:41:57Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T14:42:35Z beach: rogersm: No, there is no such way. And there is no such thing as "a lambda" in Common Lisp. There is the concept of a "lambda expression" which is just data, and there is a concept of a "function", whether created directly using the LAMBDA operator or some other operator. 2021-02-08T14:42:58Z rogersm: thanks 2021-02-08T14:43:01Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-08T14:43:04Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-02-08T14:43:29Z nij: So there's no way to get a lambda expression from a function, in general? 2021-02-08T14:43:41Z nij: (I asked this a while ago but didn't understand.) 2021-02-08T14:43:42Z beach: clhs function-lambda-expression 2021-02-08T14:43:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm 2021-02-08T14:43:43Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-08T14:43:53Z beach: nij: But it is allowed to return NIL. 2021-02-08T14:43:55Z Bike: the implementation isn't required to keep source forms around 2021-02-08T14:44:15Z beach: nij: If that weren't the case, there would be no conforming commercial Common Lisp implementations. 2021-02-08T14:45:05Z nij: Hmm.. so after compiling a lambda expression to a function, I cannot expect the function "remembers" the lambda expression? 2021-02-08T14:45:07Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T14:45:12Z beach: nij: Plus, not every function can be expressed as a lambda expression only. 2021-02-08T14:45:15Z Bike: correct 2021-02-08T14:45:23Z louis771 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-08T14:45:33Z nij: beach: Like which function cannot?! 2021-02-08T14:45:38Z _death: nij: you could do it yourself.. see pjb's ibcl for example 2021-02-08T14:45:46Z nij: Bike: then the question is.. how do I compile so that the result function remembers? 2021-02-08T14:45:46Z beach: nij: A function can close over any number of variables that are not part of the function itself. 2021-02-08T14:45:52Z flip214: isn't the source form required if the function is declared INLINE? 2021-02-08T14:45:54Z Bike: can't 2021-02-08T14:46:06Z Bike: flip214: there is no requirement for the implementation to do any inlining ever 2021-02-08T14:46:27Z nij: beach: close? 2021-02-08T14:46:37Z Bike: like a closure 2021-02-08T14:46:41Z beach: nij: (let ((x 234)) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 2021-02-08T14:46:45Z Nilby: but in practice, you can get the lambda list 2021-02-08T14:47:14Z flip214: just have ASDF include all the source files in the image as well 2021-02-08T14:47:45Z ecm1 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T14:47:47Z beach: nij: The function defined by the lambda expression "closes over" the variable X. 2021-02-08T14:48:08Z beach: nij: It's a standard concept in programming languages. 2021-02-08T14:48:47Z flip214: nij: "Let over Lambda" explores that concept in depth. 2021-02-08T14:48:55Z nij: Oh so this is an example of a function that's not a (pure) lambda. 2021-02-08T14:49:19Z beach: nij: There is no such thing as "a [pure] lambda". 2021-02-08T14:49:38Z nij: Rephrase: Oh so this is an example of a function that's not defined by a pure lambda expression. 2021-02-08T14:49:56Z beach: You can say that. But it's known as "a closure". 2021-02-08T14:50:28Z nij: Then is there anyway to turn any compiled function into this form? 2021-02-08T14:50:38Z Bike: into what form? 2021-02-08T14:50:47Z nij: closure form 2021-02-08T14:50:54Z nij: (let ((..)) (lambda ..)) 2021-02-08T14:50:58Z Bike: well the thing is closures aren't necessarily independent 2021-02-08T14:51:03Z beach: nij: The LET is not part of the function. 2021-02-08T14:51:15Z Bike: if you have (let (x) (lambda () x) (lambda (y) (setf x y))), those closures refer to the _same_ binding 2021-02-08T14:51:35Z Bike: if you used this thing and got them back as (let (x) (lambda () x)) and (let (x) (lambda (y) (setf x y))) those would be different 2021-02-08T14:51:50Z beach: nij: Surely, you have encountered closures in your previous programming career, no? 2021-02-08T14:52:15Z nij: beach: I think I understand what a closure is. Not trained formally thought. 2021-02-08T14:52:19Z nij: s/thought/though/ 2021-02-08T14:53:01Z beach: nij: As I recall, you have said that you used several different languages in the past, no? Maybe none of them allowed for closures? 2021-02-08T14:53:36Z nij: Yeah I've used superficially. Lemme think.. 2021-02-08T14:53:45Z beach: I mean, even Pascal had (has?) closures, though not first class, as I recall. 2021-02-08T14:54:30Z _death: nij: you mentioned currying the other day.. 2021-02-08T14:54:40Z nij: _death: yeah. 2021-02-08T14:55:09Z nij: see, I'm not formally trained, so I while I have my mental images of what they are, I cannot be sure if I understand 100% as all others do. 2021-02-08T14:55:31Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T14:56:19Z varjag: "WARNING: /opt/homebrew/bin/ecl is loading libcrypto in an unsafe way", and an abort 2021-02-08T14:56:26Z mfiano: Read Let Over Lambda for a mind explosion, though please don't carry over that coding style to production code :) 2021-02-08T14:56:36Z varjag: when trying to compile cl+ssl on the latest ecl/big sur 2021-02-08T14:56:45Z varjag: anyone seen that? 2021-02-08T14:57:02Z nij: mfiano: I plan to read it soon once I finish writing my personal scripts. 2021-02-08T14:57:06Z nij: It seems fun :) 2021-02-08T14:57:12Z nij: But why shouldn't I carry over that style? 2021-02-08T14:57:44Z mfiano: He does not use conventions in so many ways, and makes heavy use of anaphors. 2021-02-08T14:57:57Z mfiano: Conventions are important to follow 2021-02-08T14:58:08Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-08T14:59:28Z nij: ooops :-( I'm afraid I'm not capable of distinguish which is convention and which isn't.. 2021-02-08T14:59:33Z mfiano: THe book should be read as "hey look what you can do with macros", not "this is how you should use macros" 2021-02-08T15:00:23Z _death: maybe there should be something like Graham Crackers for other Lisp books 2021-02-08T15:00:48Z nij: _death: haha what would such books be about? 2021-02-08T15:01:02Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T15:01:05Z _death: nij: I mean something like https://courses.cs.northwestern.edu/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 2021-02-08T15:01:14Z ecm1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-08T15:01:46Z nij: OH nice! Thanks for sharing. 2021-02-08T15:04:33Z mfiano: Speaking of conventions, what other "style guides" are there besides the LUV and Google style guides? I would think the former is not as visible as the latter, and they conflict each other in so many ways. 2021-02-08T15:05:03Z _death: the latter is much more controversial 2021-02-08T15:06:18Z mfiano: It seems they recommend an arbitrary 100 column maximum. 2021-02-08T15:06:37Z nij: mfiano: what is LUV? 2021-02-08T15:06:42Z mfiano: First thing I saw at a quick glance after several years since reading it, that is most definitely different 2021-02-08T15:06:53Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:07:23Z mfiano: Lisp Users and Vendors Conference slides from Kent Pitman and Peter Norvig 2021-02-08T15:08:45Z phoe: 30 2021-02-08T15:08:47Z phoe: oops 2021-02-08T15:13:12Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:19:13Z varjag: ok looks like unversioned dylib loading issue on newer osxes 2021-02-08T15:20:36Z phoe: varjag: https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/issues/114 2021-02-08T15:21:23Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T15:21:30Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:22:59Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:23:52Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-08T15:25:36Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-08T15:25:58Z gxt joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:28:09Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T15:28:58Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-08T15:29:06Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:33:47Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-08T15:33:48Z zeroish- joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:34:01Z zeroish- left #lisp 2021-02-08T15:35:26Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T15:37:09Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-08T15:37:10Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:37:13Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:37:15Z varjag: phoe: that did the trick! 2021-02-08T15:37:45Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T15:38:00Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-08T15:43:08Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-08T15:47:25Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:48:23Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:49:06Z davd33 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:50:18Z frodef`` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:51:03Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:51:07Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-02-08T15:53:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T15:54:23Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-08T15:54:43Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-08T16:01:23Z beach: flip214: It would be unwise for inlining to use the original S-expression. There would be all kinds of issues like variable capture, multiple macro expansions, etc. 2021-02-08T16:03:04Z flip214: beach: yes, of course. I thought the questions was for documentation/reference purposes. 2021-02-08T16:03:16Z beach: I see. 2021-02-08T16:03:35Z flip214: thanks for the heads-up, anyway! 2021-02-08T16:03:46Z flip214: you're a delight to have around. 2021-02-08T16:04:01Z beach: Oh, thanks! *blush* 2021-02-08T16:05:50Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-08T16:05:52Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-08T16:06:30Z nij: I have liberate some of my recording shell scripts into their Lisp form (https://bpa.st/RLAVO).. But it's still pretty shelly :-( Accepting any suggestion! 2021-02-08T16:06:40Z beach: nij: Maybe it's time for some formal training then. Perhaps read a book such as "Programming Language Concepts" by Peter Sestoft. 2021-02-08T16:08:40Z nij: seems like a great book :D 2021-02-08T16:09:00Z Anonymous_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T16:09:46Z Nilby: nij: You could try using this, https://github.com/zkat/cl-ffmpeg and maybe bring it up to date if it doesn't work. 2021-02-08T16:10:57Z beach: nij: I read that as "thank you, but no thank you". 2021-02-08T16:10:57Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T16:11:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T16:11:29Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-08T16:12:58Z nij: beach: not really 2021-02-08T16:12:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T16:13:08Z nij: many things to read, and I have added that to my lib 2021-02-08T16:13:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T16:13:16Z nij: one day i'll might it ;) 2021-02-08T16:13:20Z beach: OK. 2021-02-08T16:14:11Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T16:14:22Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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connection) 2021-02-08T18:57:34Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-08T18:57:53Z varjag: did roswell get a hard dependency on libcurl3 with the last release? 2021-02-08T18:58:04Z varjag: suddenly my ci pipeline's crashing 2021-02-08T19:00:52Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-08T19:02:26Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T19:04:29Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-08T19:06:04Z varjag: oh yes it did 2021-02-08T19:09:49Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T19:17:21Z louis771 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T19:18:13Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-08T19:18:36Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T19:19:34Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-02-08T19:23:21Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T19:29:51Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-02-08T19:29:51Z rixard_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T19:39:21Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-08T19:39:48Z nij: I have a function that makes sound indefinitely. Without changing its "internal", how can I let it stop after 3 seconds? https://bpa.st/N2JQ 2021-02-08T19:40:45Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T19:41:00Z nij: Hoping for things like: (terminate-in 3 (loop [..])) that runs the loop, and kills it after 3 seconds. 2021-02-08T19:41:34Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T19:42:30Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T19:46:38Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-08T19:48:27Z _death: if you have a loop, you can do it there.. but for a less graceful way there's timers (see sbcl manual).. also I think there's a trivial-timers library though I've not used it 2021-02-08T19:48:36Z flazh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T19:48:52Z nij: yep i'm planning to use a timer to kill a running loop 2021-02-08T19:48:59Z nij: but how can i identify the loop? 2021-02-08T19:49:03Z davd33 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-08T19:49:25Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-02-08T19:49:33Z _death: what do you mean identify the loop?.. in your loop you could test for a flag 2021-02-08T19:49:59Z nij: That's the trickier part.. I don't want to modify the loop internally. 2021-02-08T19:50:06Z davd33 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T19:50:10Z Nilby: if you're doing things at the same time, you're either using threads or processes, so you have ether a thread or a process id 2021-02-08T19:50:49Z nij: Maybe there should be something like: 2021-02-08T19:50:50Z _death: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#index-Asynchronous-Timeout 2021-02-08T19:51:04Z nij: (run-with-id (make-id (loop [..]) :id 1234)) 2021-02-08T19:51:11Z nij: (kill-id :id 1234) 2021-02-08T19:51:30Z nij: OH! 2021-02-08T19:52:04Z noa joined #lisp 2021-02-08T19:53:50Z Nilby: or if you're in a single thread you can just check get-univeral-time 2021-02-08T19:57:35Z nij: I will also check it. Thank you :) 2021-02-08T19:58:52Z recalloc: It seems if I leave a lispcord bot running overnight, I get a memory fault 2021-02-08T19:59:03Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T20:01:06Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-08T20:03:07Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2021-02-08T20:03:18Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-08T20:04:22Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-08T20:07:00Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T20:07:03Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-08T20:07:13Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-08T20:10:32Z Christ0pher is now known as anunnaki 2021-02-08T20:14:50Z logand joined #lisp 2021-02-08T20:16:39Z gtc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-08T20:18:34Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-02-08T20:20:01Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T20:20:08Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-08T20:20:14Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-08T20:23:12Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T20:27:25Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T20:36:22Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-08T20:39:01Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T20:42:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T20:47:06Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-08T20:47:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-08T20:48:07Z Black-Wolf joined #lisp 2021-02-08T20:51:50Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-08T20:52:41Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-08T20:54:45Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T20:56:39Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T20:59:18Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-08T20:59:59Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-08T21:01:09Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T21:01:09Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T21:04:01Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:04:13Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:05:58Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:06:14Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-08T21:11:08Z hdasch quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3~bpo9+1 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-08T21:12:11Z hdasch joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:12:12Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T21:12:37Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:14:12Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:17:12Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-08T21:17:56Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:28:22Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:32:36Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T21:32:47Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-08T21:34:49Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T21:37:04Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:40:04Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:40:15Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:42:00Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-08T21:43:09Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-08T21:44:14Z shidima quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-08T21:46:35Z loli joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:47:45Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T21:49:02Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T21:50:14Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-08T21:53:05Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T21:53:45Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T21:59:47Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-08T22:03:49Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T22:12:33Z nij: Woah! There's a lispy cron "mcron" written in Guile. Is there anything close written in common lisp? 2021-02-08T22:12:35Z nij: https://www.gnu.org/software/mcron/manual/mcron.html 2021-02-08T22:14:05Z nij: The closest I found is clerk.. which doesn't run as a daemon: https://github.com/tsikov/clerk 2021-02-08T22:16:03Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T22:19:44Z anticrisis_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T22:20:43Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T22:22:59Z anticrisis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-08T22:29:04Z davd33 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-08T22:29:05Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-02-08T22:33:40Z Black-Wolf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-08T22:38:05Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T22:40:50Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T22:42:42Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-08T22:47:42Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-08T22:48:37Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T22:49:38Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-08T22:52:15Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-08T22:53:21Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:02:21Z recalloc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:02:29Z recalloc joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:02:49Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-08T23:03:33Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:03:34Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:03:45Z stylewarning quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:03:59Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:04:35Z grfn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T23:04:40Z p_l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T23:04:49Z grfn joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:04:59Z p_l joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:05:15Z stylewarning joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:05:17Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:07:53Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:09:41Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:11:53Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-08T23:12:44Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:13:00Z recalloc: I made a dependency tree to help me figure out where in my dependencies my memory leak should be, but TBH it probably made me more confused than before 2021-02-08T23:13:11Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:13:45Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:13:56Z Mandus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:14:05Z recalloc: https://0x0.st/-Hf0.png 2021-02-08T23:19:20Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:19:53Z _death: so is it a memory fault or a memory leak 2021-02-08T23:20:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-08T23:23:49Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-02-08T23:25:05Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:26:40Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:26:57Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:28:05Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:29:37Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:30:50Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:31:28Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:31:34Z louis771 quit (Quit: My M1 has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-08T23:32:36Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:32:49Z p_l quit 2021-02-08T23:33:09Z p_l joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:33:56Z nzt48 joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:34:56Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:35:25Z Mandus joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:43:30Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:51:27Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:53:34Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-08T23:55:42Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-08T23:58:08Z jasom: Is there a library for comparing hash-tables by value? 2021-02-08T23:59:18Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-08T23:59:33Z _death: library, or a function similar to equalp? 2021-02-08T23:59:47Z jasom: _death: can't use equalp because I care about string-cases 2021-02-09T00:00:00Z _death: jasom: right, that's why I say "similar" 2021-02-09T00:01:05Z jasom: There are enough "dimensions" to equality that it seems like an entire library could be written just devoted to equality (depth to descend, which structures to descend into, and which comparison operators for comparing terminals) 2021-02-09T00:01:22Z phoe: the famous kent paper describes this 2021-02-09T00:01:28Z phoe: minion: tell phoe about equality 2021-02-09T00:01:33Z minion: equality: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 2021-02-09T00:01:39Z phoe: gasp 2021-02-09T00:01:57Z phoe: minion: tell phoe about copying 2021-02-09T00:01:57Z minion: phoe: look at copying: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 2021-02-09T00:02:00Z phoe: there 2021-02-09T00:02:27Z phoe: but, yes, I assume you could define your own equality function that does what you want and how deep you want 2021-02-09T00:02:49Z _death: yeah, a library could be written, but I'm not sure that it would be a better alternative than just writing the equality operator one needs 2021-02-09T00:02:51Z phoe: or a library that uses a tree-of-closures approach to customize your equality predicates 2021-02-09T00:02:57Z fengshaun quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-09T00:03:08Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-09T00:03:22Z jasom: I really would like a case-preserving equalp; it's the one equality function I have rewritten the most often. 2021-02-09T00:03:26Z phoe: the library would need to be named animal-farm 2021-02-09T00:03:43Z jasom: phoe: because some CONSes are more equal than others? 2021-02-09T00:03:53Z phoe: jasom: T 2021-02-09T00:04:19Z _death: equalp needs a :test keyword ;) 2021-02-09T00:04:32Z phoe: _death: I actually laughed 2021-02-09T00:04:41Z jasom: as did I 2021-02-09T00:04:45Z phoe: (equalp x y :test #'equalp) 2021-02-09T00:06:17Z phoe: we need operators like e, eq, eql, equl, equal, equalp, equal-p, eqv, eqv, equv, equiv, equivp, equivalent, equivalentp, equivalent-p 2021-02-09T00:06:26Z phoe: and, most of all, we need literally-the-same-thing-p 2021-02-09T00:06:47Z phoe: (and also the -? variants instead of the -p ones to convert some Schemers along the way) 2021-02-09T00:07:08Z _death: don't forget the negated variants.. neq has been reinvented many times 2021-02-09T00:07:24Z jasom: (defun animal-farm-p (x y &key (descend-into '(:list :vector :structure :hash-table)) depth (terminal-test #'equal)) 2021-02-09T00:09:00Z phoe: (animal-farm-p x y :descend-into '(:darkness)) 2021-02-09T00:11:35Z fengshaun joined #lisp 2021-02-09T00:11:36Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T00:12:05Z jasom: (animal-farm-p x y :depth 3 (terminal-test (rassoc #'animal-farm-p :descend-into '(:vector :structure :hash-table) :terminal-test #'compare-alist-or-equal)) ;; <-- there we go "treat the first 3 levels of lists as lists, and any deeper lists as alists... 2021-02-09T00:12:12Z jasom: s/rassoc/rcurry 2021-02-09T00:12:51Z _death: (compare x y '((number =) (string equal) (vector element >) (hash-table :test equal) (my-class slot x eq slot y equal))) 2021-02-09T00:15:25Z fengshaun_ joined #lisp 2021-02-09T00:15:32Z _death: maybe (compare x and y using ...) to satisfy the kneejerks 2021-02-09T00:16:00Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-09T00:16:09Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-09T00:16:29Z fengshaun quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-09T00:17:08Z phoe: _death: oh no 2021-02-09T00:19:56Z _death: what, you don't like (compare p1 and p2 using key native-namestring and test equal when type-error return 'maybe) ? 2021-02-09T00:20:28Z _death: add quotes/hashquotes as necessary 2021-02-09T00:21:42Z phoe: how would you describe a predicate for threefold nested lists, the outermost compared via EQUALP, the middle via EQUAL, the innermost via EQL? 2021-02-09T00:25:15Z Anonymous_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T00:30:46Z _death: seems you want an "except on type" clause 2021-02-09T00:32:56Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T00:33:33Z gjnoonan left #lisp 2021-02-09T00:33:57Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T00:36:23Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-02-09T00:37:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T00:41:51Z Veera11 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T00:42:23Z Veera11 is now known as Vee_ra 2021-02-09T00:43:52Z Vee_ra quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-09T00:51:50Z Veera joined #lisp 2021-02-09T00:53:21Z Veera quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-09T00:53:49Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T00:54:18Z veera joined #lisp 2021-02-09T00:58:18Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T01:00:11Z carkh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T01:13:37Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T01:15:22Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T01:16:32Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-02-09T01:16:58Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T01:19:47Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T01:22:45Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T01:36:54Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T01:37:14Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-09T01:40:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T01:43:37Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-02-09T01:50:10Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T01:50:49Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-09T01:52:27Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-09T01:57:11Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T01:57:21Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-09T01:57:44Z _death: https://gist.github.com/death/6a441602bd6acebda067dd900e56e256 2021-02-09T01:57:51Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T01:58:20Z _death: enjoy this late-night-waste-of-time-gotta-go-to-sleep 2021-02-09T02:00:18Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T02:02:03Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-09T02:02:06Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-09T02:03:20Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-09T02:05:56Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T02:06:17Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-09T02:07:17Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-09T02:13:45Z drl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T02:16:24Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-09T02:17:23Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T02:21:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T02:21:27Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-09T02:22:09Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-09T02:28:09Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-09T02:29:05Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-09T02:39:23Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T02:41:44Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T02:44:00Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T02:54:44Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T02:58:57Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T02:59:49Z u0_a61 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T02:59:54Z u0_a61 is now known as Wezl 2021-02-09T03:00:02Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:00:24Z Wezl: What is the f in setf / rotatef / related mnemonic for? 2021-02-09T03:02:42Z mfiano: "function" 2021-02-09T03:04:40Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T03:05:11Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T03:06:07Z theothornhill[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:06:38Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-09T03:07:26Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T03:10:07Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:14:16Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T03:15:47Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:19:25Z prxq_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T03:23:30Z pillton: Hmm.. where is that from? I don't think that is correct. 2021-02-09T03:24:06Z mfiano: Gabriel's Evolution of Lisp 2021-02-09T03:27:08Z jmercouris quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T03:27:08Z rme quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T03:27:09Z veera quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T03:27:13Z grfn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-09T03:27:19Z mpontillo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T03:27:22Z waleee-cl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T03:27:27Z p_l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T03:27:27Z gendl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T03:27:28Z stylewarning quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T03:27:35Z theruran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T03:27:35Z pillton: Thanks. 2021-02-09T03:27:42Z selwyn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-09T03:28:35Z veera joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:28:39Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:28:39Z rme joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:28:47Z selwyn joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:28:51Z larme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T03:29:13Z gendl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:29:16Z stylewarning joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:29:44Z larme joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:30:19Z p_l joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:30:46Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:31:23Z mpontillo joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:31:29Z grfn joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:32:14Z theruran joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:33:22Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:34:32Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:35:21Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-09T03:41:47Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:54:44Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:55:03Z nthian joined #lisp 2021-02-09T03:58:45Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T04:01:34Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-09T04:03:00Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-09T04:04:53Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-09T04:11:50Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T04:15:34Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T04:15:38Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-09T04:16:46Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-09T04:20:09Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T04:25:00Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-09T04:32:32Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-09T04:33:10Z jpli quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-09T04:37:24Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T04:41:39Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-09T04:43:13Z mister_m quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-09T04:46:21Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-09T04:48:03Z pillton` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T04:49:22Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-09T04:51:02Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-09T04:56:04Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-09T04:56:23Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-09T04:58:55Z Stargazer2005 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T05:04:23Z nzt48 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T05:07:45Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T05:13:12Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-09T05:19:47Z carkh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T05:24:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T05:26:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-09T05:29:06Z Bike quit (Quit: sleep) 2021-02-09T05:40:39Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-02-09T05:41:07Z Lycurgus joined 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2021-02-09T10:13:36Z beach: Go right ahead. 2021-02-09T10:13:53Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-09T10:15:44Z gj: i found an example of someones fibonacci sequence in lisp, and in that is (1- n),  i thought lisp used prefix notation? 2021-02-09T10:16:07Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-09T10:16:07Z beach: Yes, 1- is the name of the function that subtracts 1 from its argument. 2021-02-09T10:16:10Z beach: clhs 1- 2021-02-09T10:16:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_1pl_1_.htm 2021-02-09T10:16:14Z gj: does (1- n) here mean (- n 1) 2021-02-09T10:16:26Z gj: oh! thank you so much. 2021-02-09T10:16:26Z beach: Yes. 2021-02-09T10:16:38Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-02-09T10:16:42Z gj: but would one still be able to write it as (- n 1) ? 2021-02-09T10:16:43Z mfiano: Yes, +1 and -1 is such a common thing that it is it's own function 2021-02-09T10:16:49Z johnjay joined #lisp 2021-02-09T10:16:53Z mfiano: Yes 2021-02-09T10:17:01Z gj: oh that is interesting, thanks 2021-02-09T10:17:12Z beach: gj: Yes, but there is a very general rule in programming, namely that one should use the most specific construct that will do the trick. 2021-02-09T10:17:20Z ey[m]: 1+ is a function that does the same thing as (+ n 1) 2021-02-09T10:17:38Z ey[m]: 1- the same thing 2021-02-09T10:20:03Z adam4567 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T10:20:39Z opcode joined #lisp 2021-02-09T10:20:53Z theothornhill: It may be obvious, but it wasn't to me when I first learned CL: (1+ x) is not the same as (incf x) bit be a couple of times 2021-02-09T10:22:08Z drot joined #lisp 2021-02-09T10:22:09Z beach: gj: Imagine (- 1) vs (1- ) In the first case, the person reading your code will have to wait until after to understand what is subtracted. 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They all seem like a half-baked bad idea to me. 2021-02-09T11:21:40Z jmercouris: secondly, syntax highlighting... 2021-02-09T11:21:48Z jmercouris: they are all a half baked idea 2021-02-09T11:22:04Z jmercouris: if you really must use some Python library, you will want to write a wrapper for it, using it directly is oft too painful 2021-02-09T11:22:13Z nij: jmercouris: yeah i really want to know why it's half-baked. 2021-02-09T11:22:16Z jmercouris: even CCL's famed objective-c bridge is difficult to use 2021-02-09T11:22:32Z jmercouris: I got quite into it, and had my fair share of issues 2021-02-09T11:22:45Z nij: is this theoretically improvable? 2021-02-09T11:22:55Z nij: or it's just a thing the be dealt with while talking foreign 2021-02-09T11:23:10Z jmercouris: foreign languages have different concepts that don't necessarily map well to lisp 2021-02-09T11:23:10Z nij: taking in a foreign lang* 2021-02-09T11:23:20Z jmercouris: there is always some impedance mismatch, hence so many problems 2021-02-09T11:23:31Z equwal: The only one I might be able to get behind is the APL one. Embedded APL seems potentially really good, for very specific kinds of programming. To convince me, show that the embedded language provides an actual benefit 2021-02-09T11:23:33Z jmercouris: CFFI which is a 'solved' foreign interface is not exactly fun, pleasant, or easy ot use 2021-02-09T11:23:43Z jmercouris: s/ot/to 2021-02-09T11:23:49Z nij: hmm.. would you plz give an example of python? Like, what python concept maps badly to lisp? 2021-02-09T11:23:50Z jmercouris: well, it is easy 2021-02-09T11:23:54Z jmercouris: but not fun or pleasant 2021-02-09T11:23:58Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-02-09T11:24:11Z jmercouris: here's a concept, python uses lightweight threads 2021-02-09T11:24:28Z jmercouris: what if you had multiple bordeaux threads running calling python 2021-02-09T11:24:34Z jmercouris: would they each be calling a different process? the same one? 2021-02-09T11:24:36Z equwal: The problem is: why do you need this complication? It is a high cost, what is the offsetting benefit? I see none yet. 2021-02-09T11:24:37Z jmercouris: how do they share any state/ 2021-02-09T11:24:52Z jmercouris: usually it is a crutch for people who are familiar with some language or library 2021-02-09T11:24:57Z jmercouris: and they want to keep using it 2021-02-09T11:25:23Z nij: equwal: writing in lisp is much funnnnner than in py 2021-02-09T11:25:24Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-02-09T11:25:43Z equwal: I don't buy that. To take a line from the Rust community 'Write it in !' 2021-02-09T11:25:57Z jmercouris: lol, we should get some NIH here 2021-02-09T11:26:02Z nij: equwal: ? 2021-02-09T11:26:09Z equwal: If it is more fun, then just do it then. 2021-02-09T11:26:14Z jmercouris: IS MEMORY SAFE, we must rewrite all C programs in Lisp 2021-02-09T11:26:30Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T11:26:32Z jmercouris: let's rewrite CURL in Lisp 2021-02-09T11:26:42Z equwal: There are all these carbon-copy programs in Rust, it is kind of their thing, to make ripoffs. 2021-02-09T11:26:53Z jmercouris: I wonder why 2021-02-09T11:27:12Z jmercouris: I've come so close several times to learning rust 2021-02-09T11:27:14Z equwal: The subtle hint here is that I think this is stupid. If it is a little program written in C, leave it alone 2021-02-09T11:27:15Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-09T11:27:16Z nij: jmercouris: hm. So, but in this example why can't we just specify which process the bordeaux thread should be poointing at? 2021-02-09T11:27:29Z jmercouris: nij: I don't know, CAN YOU? 2021-02-09T11:27:35Z jmercouris: does py4cl give you a easy way to do that? 2021-02-09T11:28:00Z equwal: nij: If you need something from threads, you can write in in Lisp. 2021-02-09T11:28:23Z nij: yeah.. 2021-02-09T11:28:37Z nij: I want to do it cuz the py-community obviously has a larger library 2021-02-09T11:28:53Z nij: if we can steal that without penalty, i'd be more than glad to do it 2021-02-09T11:29:18Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T11:30:14Z equwal: I can get behind a carefully considered decision to use CFFI or April's APL 2021-02-09T11:30:18Z equwal: https://github.com/phantomics/april 2021-02-09T11:31:15Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T11:31:44Z phantomics: What are you thinking of using it for? 2021-02-09T11:32:39Z equwal: Oh hey look who it is. 2021-02-09T11:33:17Z equwal: I don't know, but something like statistics functions could be useful with it. 2021-02-09T11:33:54Z equwal: I remember a paper that showed how to write them in APL, it was a really neat trick. I will look for it now. 2021-02-09T11:34:20Z phantomics: Not exactly comparable to CFFI, since it compiles to Lisp rather than interfacing with compiled binaries in another language 2021-02-09T11:36:00Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T11:36:16Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-09T11:37:44Z phantomics: I've been using it for graphics, stats are another area you can get a lot of mileage from it 2021-02-09T11:37:58Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-09T11:38:04Z equwal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T11:40:50Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-02-09T11:41:02Z equwal: See page 8 of this paper (currently uploading, please be patient): https://equwal.com/apl-pedagogical.pdf for the statistics I mention 2021-02-09T11:42:05Z jurov_ joined #lisp 2021-02-09T11:42:33Z equwal: APL's original purpose was for handwriting computations in Linear Algebra in front of Iverson's class, and anything close to that is exteremely well-fitted to APL, otherwise APL can be useless for that problem. 2021-02-09T11:43:20Z equwal: nij's idea to use Python in Lisp makes little sense comparatively, since Python hardly provides any additional value and isn't anything like a DSL. 2021-02-09T11:44:00Z phantomics: I'll be the first to tell you that APL isn't a general-purpose language, it's special purpose, if your problem fits it it can give a huge performance boost, if not then use Lisp 2021-02-09T11:44:45Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T11:44:46Z equwal: phantomics: Exactly which is why I mentioned your project. Are you aware of the niche project where APL is used as a GPU-only compiler? 2021-02-09T11:44:55Z phantomics: Productivity boost, I should say 2021-02-09T11:45:07Z phantomics: Yes, you mean co-dfns? 2021-02-09T11:46:50Z jurov joined #lisp 2021-02-09T11:47:17Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T11:47:18Z nij: equwal: how about the libraries the python community has created? 2021-02-09T11:49:25Z equwal: nij: I can't get behind the fad of having a confusing 'stack' of 'technologies'. It makes sense to use C libraries from lisp; C is a kind of portable ASM upgrade. Why does it make sense to use python libraries from Lisp? Too complicated. fail. 2021-02-09T11:50:24Z equwal: Anyway this paper was really convincing to me. Every time I have shown it to someone familiar with Statistics 101 I get a very particular reaction. 2021-02-09T11:50:49Z phantomics: That's a more valid reason to use python integration, if there's a library you need for something and don't have time to implement it in Lisp, py4cl can get you there faster 2021-02-09T11:50:51Z equwal: (it is up now http://equwal.com/apl-pedagogical.pdf) 2021-02-09T11:51:07Z phantomics: Thanks for the paper equwal, reading it 2021-02-09T11:51:26Z lukego: Hey what's a good parser library for extracting fragments of text from mostly unstructured data? (Specifically for skimming out a couple of tables from a document that's been converted from PDF to text.) 2021-02-09T11:51:52Z phantomics: lukego: have you looked at MaxPC? 2021-02-09T11:51:56Z equwal: Well, if you are engaging in cheap hacks that are obviously bad, then fine, but don't expect anyone to say 'wow that is a great idea' 2021-02-09T11:52:21Z phantomics: It's always preferable to implement something in straight Lisp, but if you need to get something done right away, that may not be an option 2021-02-09T11:53:07Z equwal: I suppose. I'd just use some cheap shell hacking for that, CL kind of sucks for writing throw-away programs in my experience. 2021-02-09T11:53:24Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-09T11:53:28Z lukego: phantomics: thanks for that pointer! hadn't seen (but know Max well) 2021-02-09T11:53:32Z Nilby: jmercouris: What feature do you want from curl that drakma doesn't do? 2021-02-09T11:54:37Z equwal: Here is 99% of my curl usage: curl --no-progress-meter 'wttr.in/Santa%20BARBARA,USA' 2021-02-09T11:54:53Z phantomics: equwal: I've used it for some useful throwaway things, but also if you're writing a significant application and you need something from Python, I'd rather put a Lisp app into production with some Python add-ons than a straight Python app 2021-02-09T11:55:13Z phantomics: And then over time work to reimplement the Python stuff in Lisp 2021-02-09T11:55:52Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-09T11:56:32Z equwal: I can understand this use case. Seems too complex to me, why not write your Python hacks separately and keep your Lisp pure? 2021-02-09T11:57:15Z nij: Woah APL seems cool: life←{↑1 ⍵∨.∧3 4=+/,¯1 0 1∘.⊖¯1 0 1∘.⌽⊂⍵} 2021-02-09T11:57:15Z nij: 2021-02-09T11:57:20Z equwal: I did a project when I was in College with another student. He only knew python, so I just called his program with uiop:run-program. 2021-02-09T11:57:24Z nij: Does this really get you game of life? 2021-02-09T11:57:24Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T11:57:49Z phantomics: Yes, that function calculates the next generation of a life matrix 2021-02-09T11:57:52Z Nilby: equwal: nice, but what renders it for you? 2021-02-09T11:57:56Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-09T11:58:30Z nij: jeez i should learn APL 2021-02-09T11:58:39Z equwal: I did a project when I was in College with another student. He only knew python, so I just called his program with uiop:run-program. 2021-02-09T11:58:47Z equwal: oops, sorry 2021-02-09T11:59:50Z nij: xD 2021-02-09T11:59:54Z equwal: nij: APL is has the highest ratio of 'totally cool, dude'/'what is that?' of any language. Kind of sad it is forgotten. I used it to mess around in my notebooks during my stats 101 course. 2021-02-09T11:59:57Z phantomics: Keeping Lisp pure is what I'd aim for, I haven't needed to directly generate Python yet, just envisioning use cases 2021-02-09T12:00:16Z nij: equwal: what's your favorite bible for APL? 2021-02-09T12:00:18Z nij: down for it 2021-02-09T12:00:37Z nij: i'm looking for notations that allow compact expressions 2021-02-09T12:00:41Z nij: apl seems pretty nice 2021-02-09T12:00:44Z phantomics: If you want to learn APL, I recommend: tutorial.dyalog.com 2021-02-09T12:01:03Z phantomics: This tutorial uses really primitive technology, but the quality of the material is superb 2021-02-09T12:01:14Z nij: The better; the nicher! 2021-02-09T12:01:20Z nij: Sad fact. 2021-02-09T12:01:41Z nij: phantomics: thanks for the recommendation. I care only about the content ;) 2021-02-09T12:01:55Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T12:01:57Z equwal: nij: dyalog stuff is good I guess. I could do without the profit-mongering/business attitude in what is left of APL. 2021-02-09T12:02:57Z phantomics: You don't need to pay for the tutorial, and April is patterned after Dyalog, so learning Dyalog can be applied to April, also to dzaima/APL, another FOSS APL built on Java 2021-02-09T12:03:44Z phantomics: What kind of things are you interested in doing nij? There are other languages in the same vector language family as APL that you can also look at 2021-02-09T12:03:47Z nij: equwal: so, I get it's ability to express (soooo!) compactly 2021-02-09T12:03:55Z equwal: nij: I like the finnapl idiom library and the microapl.com documentation. 2021-02-09T12:04:11Z nij: or an apl wizard, can they understand meanings from an apl expression quickly without confusion? 2021-02-09T12:04:27Z nij: phantomics: higher algebra in mathematics 2021-02-09T12:04:36Z nij: still exploring 2021-02-09T12:05:03Z equwal: It takes forever to read APL. It is fun, you can do magic tricks with it. 2021-02-09T12:05:05Z nij: equwal: thakns 2021-02-09T12:05:10Z nij: :( 2021-02-09T12:05:14Z phantomics: APL's a good choice for that, especially if you want to work with higher-rank arrays 2021-02-09T12:05:25Z nij: phantomics: not sure.. i will see 2021-02-09T12:05:34Z nij: by "higher" i mean "higher dimensional" 2021-02-09T12:05:46Z nij: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=operad 2021-02-09T12:05:48Z phantomics: Another vector language family branch is the k family, but k only operates on vectors. It's generally aimed at finance 2021-02-09T12:06:14Z nij: equwal: so even for wizards, reading apl can still be hard? 2021-02-09T12:06:33Z nij: and, can i say that, apl describes more operationally than declaratively? 2021-02-09T12:06:43Z phantomics: Yeah, reading dense APL code you're not familiar with can be tricky 2021-02-09T12:06:58Z phantomics: Generally I learn what it does by evaluating it a bit at a time 2021-02-09T12:07:07Z equwal: The wizards say they might spend 5-15 minutes per line. It is so dense, think of a line like a whole page of code. 2021-02-09T12:08:19Z phantomics: Yeah, there's a tradeoff in that you have fewer lines but they take longer to read 2021-02-09T12:08:22Z equwal: I don't like these ASCII clones. Super bad idea. We can type weird symbols in 2020, Jesus H. Christ. 2021-02-09T12:08:38Z jlpeters quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-09T12:08:50Z yonkunas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T12:08:50Z banjiewen__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T12:08:52Z phantomics: However, the short, terse code also gives a plain advantage to APL: your code will have very few bugs 2021-02-09T12:09:08Z pent quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T12:09:09Z sz0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T12:09:15Z phantomics: Yeah, ASCII languages need to overload tons of meanings onto each character for different contexts 2021-02-09T12:09:49Z phantomics: J is really confusing that way 2021-02-09T12:10:21Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:10:23Z jlpeters joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:10:25Z phantomics: Also, if you like exotic character sets, you should also check out BQN, a completely new vector language by an ex-Dyalog guy 2021-02-09T12:10:47Z pent joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:11:19Z equwal: Reminds me of this: https://github.com/marcoheisig/Petalisp/blob/master/README.org#why-the-greek-letters 2021-02-09T12:11:41Z banjiewen__ joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:12:01Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T12:12:08Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:12:09Z jackdaniel: please keep in mind this channel's topic 2021-02-09T12:12:33Z equwal: I his ELS paper (paraphrased) we have these machines doing huge numbers of perations, all these tiny transistors, gigantic amounts of storage, and you can't figure out how insert a weird character into a text editor? 2021-02-09T12:12:50Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:13:42Z heisig: :) 2021-02-09T12:13:44Z phantomics: This is Iverson's paper on custom notation: https://www.eecg.utoronto.ca/~jzhu/csc326/readings/iverson.pdf 2021-02-09T12:13:45Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T12:13:57Z phantomics: And special characters are useful in Lisp too 2021-02-09T12:14:01Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:14:18Z equwal: Sorry to burn your ears Heisig. 2021-02-09T12:15:38Z phantomics: For example April uses a macro called λωα which expands thusly: (λωα (+ alpha omega)) => (lambda (omega alpha) (+ alpha omega)) 2021-02-09T12:16:07Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T12:16:39Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:18:29Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T12:18:46Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:19:05Z equwal: I have a hard time with extensions to APL like this BQN. APL is complex enough, please stop trying to extend it! If anything, I want less stuff in my APL. 2021-02-09T12:19:53Z jackdaniel: equwal: phantomics: these things seem to be offtopic on this channel, could you please move it to i.e #lispcafe ? 2021-02-09T12:22:04Z equwal: You are right. Let me put this link for njb and I will be finished: https://www.jsoftware.com/papers/APLEvol.htm 2021-02-09T12:22:20Z jackdaniel: OK, thank you 2021-02-09T12:23:04Z heisig: Proponents of array languages are also welcome to join #petalisp. 2021-02-09T12:23:20Z equwal: based 2021-02-09T12:24:08Z rogersm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T12:24:14Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:24:48Z phantomics: I'm done talking vector langs for now, good to know that channel heisig 2021-02-09T12:28:12Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-09T12:28:31Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T12:28:40Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-09T12:29:17Z tomaw quit (Quit: Quitting) 2021-02-09T12:32:23Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-09T12:34:58Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T12:35:17Z tomaw joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:35:24Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:48:36Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T12:49:08Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:52:57Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:53:08Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T12:54:53Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:55:45Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:57:38Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-09T12:58:16Z stylewarning quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T12:58:37Z p_l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T12:59:46Z stoneglass left #lisp 2021-02-09T13:01:33Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-09T13:02:42Z p_l joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:02:51Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-09T13:03:38Z stylewarning joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:05:17Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T13:06:12Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:09:31Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:10:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-09T13:13:30Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T13:13:56Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:18:04Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:20:37Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:22:35Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-09T13:26:51Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:26:56Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:29:44Z ecm1 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:30:45Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:31:40Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:39:31Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:41:02Z ecm1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-09T13:41:18Z ecm1 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:41:24Z ecm1 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-09T13:42:17Z tomaw quit (Quit: Quitting) 2021-02-09T13:42:52Z tomaw joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:45:23Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-09T13:45:37Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:48:17Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:52:58Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T13:58:56Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:01:12Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:02:01Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-02-09T14:02:25Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:06:15Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:09:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T14:10:22Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:13:07Z lottaquestions quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T14:13:21Z caret joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:13:35Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:15:55Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-09T14:27:12Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-09T14:27:59Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-09T14:28:04Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T14:28:27Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:28:34Z hvxgr quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-09T14:28:46Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:32:32Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-02-09T14:34:39Z prxq quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-09T14:36:29Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:38:48Z jmercouris: do you think it would be likely that a paper about Nyxt may be accepted into the ELS? 2021-02-09T14:38:52Z jmercouris: should I make a submission? 2021-02-09T14:39:19Z phoe: I think you should 2021-02-09T14:39:50Z phoe: even if, for whatever reason, it does not make it into the ELS program, I will have a reason to bother you for recording a video for the Online Lisp Meetings 2021-02-09T14:40:27Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T14:40:32Z jmercouris: :-D 2021-02-09T14:42:24Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:44:16Z Nilby: Do you know if there's somewhere where those FOSDEM videos were archived? 2021-02-09T14:44:39Z aggin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T14:45:12Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:47:21Z aggin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T14:48:11Z hhdave: jmecouris: it looks interesting. It was previously known as 'Next browser' wasn't it? I must have a play with it. It seems to have progressed quite a bit since I looked at it. 2021-02-09T14:49:04Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:49:23Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-09T14:50:32Z hhdave: (jmercouris I mean) 2021-02-09T14:55:19Z devon joined #lisp 2021-02-09T14:55:49Z Nilby: hhdave: My opinion is it's progressed significantly recently. 2021-02-09T14:56:45Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T15:06:16Z flip214: How do I upgrade a BASE-STRING to STRING? COERCE doesn't help, ADJUST-ARRAY gives an error, MAKE-STRING only allows a single INITIAL-ELEMENT, MAKE-ARRAY wants a list for :I-ELEMENTS.... 2021-02-09T15:07:18Z jmercouris: hhdave: you are correct 2021-02-09T15:07:59Z Bike: flip214: base strings are strings. do you want a character array specifically? 2021-02-09T15:07:59Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 8 hours, 29 minutes ago: Here's my current plan for image-save... 2021-02-09T15:07:59Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 8 hours, 28 minutes ago: Here's my current plan for image save: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/3TLbC4Ub/ 2021-02-09T15:08:53Z flip214: Bike: the problem is that passing "http://localhost/?a=%c3%b6" breaks in PURI, as it wants to decode the string into a COPY-SEQ of the input - but if the input is a BASE-STRING, the "ö" isn't accepted 2021-02-09T15:09:25Z Bike: (coerce base-string '(simple-array character (*))) maybe 2021-02-09T15:09:58Z phoe: Bike: won't 'simple-string do? 2021-02-09T15:10:05Z flip214: ie. (drakma:http-request (coerce "http://localhost:8080/gen/?a=%C3%B6" 'base-string)) 2021-02-09T15:10:17Z phoe: I mean, one-dimensional simple-array of character *is* a string 2021-02-09T15:10:19Z phoe: (AFAIR) 2021-02-09T15:10:30Z Bike: yes, but so is the base string being put in 2021-02-09T15:10:41Z flip214: (coerce uri 'simple-string) also breaks 2021-02-09T15:10:47Z mfiano: IF it isn't too much work, one could try quri (with dexador) 2021-02-09T15:11:06Z Bike: coerce returns what you put in if it's already of the type, and (typep a-base-string 'simple-string) => T 2021-02-09T15:11:08Z flip214: mfiano: the problem is within drakma, so that would be a bit more work 2021-02-09T15:11:13Z Bike: well, if it's a simple-base-string, of course 2021-02-09T15:11:56Z Bike: (coerce x 'string) does nothing for the same reason 2021-02-09T15:12:08Z flip214: (babel:octets-to-string (babel:string-to-octets uri)) works.... ugh 2021-02-09T15:12:20Z Bike: did you try my coerce line? to (simple-array character (*))? 2021-02-09T15:12:24Z _death: map? 2021-02-09T15:14:02Z jmercouris: Nilby: FOsDEM videos are archived on archive.fosdem.com or something, all of our FOSDEM videos can be seen on our site 2021-02-09T15:14:27Z jmercouris: Here’s an example of an archive URL 2021-02-09T15:14:29Z jmercouris: https://archive.fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/next_web_browser/ 2021-02-09T15:15:17Z Nilby: jmercouris: Thanks! I couldn't find it on the main site. 2021-02-09T15:15:31Z jmercouris: Yeah, it’s not well documented IMO 2021-02-09T15:15:57Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-09T15:16:56Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-09T15:17:47Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-09T15:23:08Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-09T15:23:27Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-02-09T15:26:45Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-09T15:27:02Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-09T15:33:26Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T15:34:21Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-09T15:34:21Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T15:34:31Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T15:35:35Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T15:36:04Z sunwukong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T15:42:33Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-09T15:43:22Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-09T15:53:14Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T15:53:28Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T15:53:36Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T15:55:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-09T15:56:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T15:58:10Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-09T15:59:17Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-09T16:00:50Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-09T16:01:07Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T16:01:45Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-09T16:01:46Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-09T16:05:29Z sunwukong joined #lisp 2021-02-09T16:06:07Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-09T16:07:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-09T16:13:40Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-09T16:17:08Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-09T16:20:36Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-09T16:20:36Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T16:20:51Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T16:20:51Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-09T16:29:29Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-09T16:43:30Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-09T16:48:23Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-09T16:48:46Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-09T16:52:32Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-09T16:56:22Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:00:54Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:03:54Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T17:04:01Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:04:50Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:06:14Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:08:02Z sunwukong quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-09T17:16:45Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T17:18:54Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-09T17:19:16Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T17:20:41Z noobineer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-09T17:20:53Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:23:57Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T17:24:03Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-09T17:25:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:25:45Z rabbit_05 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:29:23Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:31:25Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:31:49Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T17:31:53Z jonatack__ joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:35:04Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T17:35:06Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T17:35:28Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:35:35Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:35:46Z jonatack__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T17:35:59Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:36:57Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:37:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-09T17:38:05Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T17:39:51Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-09T17:40:05Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T17:43:12Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:47:43Z contrapunctus: Thinking of writing a Git frontend for Gemini. There's Shinmera's `legit` and fourier's `git-api`; neither has had a commit since 2019; the latter does not require a Git binary, although that's not a big deal at least for my personal situation. What do y'all say? 🤔 2021-02-09T17:49:26Z scymtym: contrapunctus: there is also https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-git but i don't anything about it 2021-02-09T17:49:30Z scymtym: *don't know 2021-02-09T17:50:21Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-09T17:53:42Z contrapunctus: scymtym: thanks, that sounds like a more thorough approach 2021-02-09T17:54:17Z phoe: contrapunctus: "neither has had a commit since 2019" 2021-02-09T17:54:20Z phoe: maybe it didn't need one? 2021-02-09T17:56:56Z contrapunctus: phoe: git-api says, "Work in progress!!!" 2021-02-09T17:57:00Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-09T17:57:04Z phoe: talking about legit here 2021-02-09T17:58:11Z contrapunctus: Yeah, that one sounds like it's more or less where the author wants it to be - v1.0.0, and "I will add features as they are needed. The low-level command API is fully mapped however." 2021-02-09T18:03:09Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-09T18:04:33Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T18:04:39Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-02-09T18:07:12Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-09T18:07:39Z miasuji joined #lisp 2021-02-09T18:09:04Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T18:17:51Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-09T18:18:47Z rpg: Unlikely any system is bulletproof enough to have required no patches in more than a year if it's in use. 2021-02-09T18:20:15Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-09T18:20:18Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-02-09T18:20:50Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-09T18:29:28Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T18:34:03Z jcowan joined #lisp 2021-02-09T18:35:06Z jcowan: A question about actual functioning applications rather than the standard: are there any CLs that don't (a) provide at least 24-bit fixnums (b) have EQ work correctly on fixnums? 2021-02-09T18:35:15Z jcowan: s/applications/implementations 2021-02-09T18:35:41Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-02-09T18:36:20Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-09T18:36:45Z semz: you can easily test (a) programmatically for what it's worth 2021-02-09T18:37:10Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T18:39:16Z mister_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T18:44:18Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-09T18:44:24Z jcowan: Yes, if I had a lot of Lisps installed. 2021-02-09T18:45:22Z semz: I mean in the program that relies these two conditions. 2021-02-09T18:45:50Z semz: Since I assume you had a concrete use in mind 2021-02-09T18:45:56Z semz: relies on* 2021-02-09T18:46:38Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-09T18:47:49Z jcowan: I'm doing a feasibility study to see if Interlisp can be implemented in Common Lisp. There are a bunch of places in which IL is overspecified, like what the size of a fixnum is (17 bits) and that fixnums are reliably EQ. 2021-02-09T18:48:09Z jcowan: The main benefit of this effort would be to have something faster than the Interlisp bytecode compiler. 2021-02-09T18:48:39Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-09T18:49:52Z jcowan: I guess the simplest approach is to install a bunch of CLs and test on them. Which ones should I test things like this on? 2021-02-09T18:52:50Z Nilby: I'm sure it could be worked out. Maybe you could just make a fixnum be an (integer 0 131072) or something and have a compiler macro for reliable-eq. 2021-02-09T18:55:49Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-02-09T18:56:19Z semz: Assuming I understand your question correctly, CCL fits your bill. As should most current implementations, SBCL is probably more popular. I'm just confused that you ask for "any impl that doesn't", as if you're trying to make it work on as many implementations as possible. You explicitly said the standard is no concern, so shouldn't it be enough to find one or just ensure it for the most common impls? 2021-02-09T18:56:23Z semz: I feel like I'm missing something 2021-02-09T18:57:42Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:00:23Z jcowan: I would like it to be as portable as possible while still conforming to the IL standard, such as it is. 2021-02-09T19:00:31Z Nilby: I imagine it would be very rare code that cared how small, rather than how big, a fixnum is. 2021-02-09T19:01:13Z jcowan: It's more that IL code is written to rely on fixnums being EQ 2021-02-09T19:01:37Z jcowan: they are 17-bit in IL, whereas the ANS sets a lower threshold of 16 bits. 2021-02-09T19:02:45Z edgar-rft: jcowan: fixnums and EQ work only on very old computers reliably, because EQ compares memory pointers but on modern multi-level cache CPUs fixnums can also be stored in CPU registers and other places. That was the main reason why EQL was introduced, EQL is guaranteed to work reliably with fixnums in all memory places. 2021-02-09T19:03:20Z jcowan: So perhaps TRT is to implement IL:EQ with CL:EQL 2021-02-09T19:03:47Z Nilby: I imagine a litte eq tweaking in a package would suffice. One cool thing about CL packages is: you don't have to :use the CL package. 2021-02-09T19:04:05Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:04:56Z enzuru joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:04:57Z jcowan: Which leads to another question 2021-02-09T19:07:20Z Nilby: I have a vague recollection of some other Lisp, probably a commercial lisp, from the early Common Lisp era being able to run Interlisp code. 2021-02-09T19:07:47Z jcowan: Medley, the IL environment, has a CL in it, roughly CLtL2--. 2021-02-09T19:09:46Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:10:13Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:10:29Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T19:10:46Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:13:05Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:13:33Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:14:40Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T19:14:57Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:15:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:15:39Z amplituhedron joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:15:47Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:15:58Z vms14 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:17:39Z waleee-cl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T19:17:39Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:17:52Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:18:03Z Josh_2: Hi, is there a nice way to export symbols related to functions, classes and accessors from my package? 2021-02-09T19:18:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:19:12Z Josh_2: obviously I could type them out but that'll take a while 2021-02-09T19:19:51Z jcowan: If IL:EQ is to be implemented as CL:EQL, and assuming the compiler can inline the latter, what is the best way to make sure that property is not lost? Declare it inline, use a compile-time macro, something else? 2021-02-09T19:21:38Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-09T19:22:08Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T19:22:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:22:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:23:09Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:23:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:23:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:24:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:24:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:25:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:25:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:26:09Z Nilby: I'm not sure how it could get lost. Compilers seem pretty good about that. 2021-02-09T19:27:40Z thelounge7191 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:27:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:27:53Z thelounge7191 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-09T19:29:06Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:29:58Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:31:16Z jcowan: I'll need to have (defun eq (x y) (cl:eql x y)) so that it exists as a function for the benefit of higher-order functions, but I don't suppose the compiler is likely to be smart enough to see that this is just cl:eql under the covers. 2021-02-09T19:31:17Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:32:01Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:33:05Z Nilby: They are smart enough. 2021-02-09T19:33:47Z jcowan: Ah, good. 2021-02-09T19:34:27Z Nilby: Also there's other ways, like (setf (fdefinition eq) (fdefinition cl:eql)). 2021-02-09T19:34:42Z Nilby: As well as compiler macros if need be. 2021-02-09T19:34:57Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:35:25Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-09T19:35:33Z pve: Josh_2: you could start with something simple like: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2286 2021-02-09T19:36:55Z jcowan: So the compiler actually checks whether the fdefinition of a function is the same as that of a known function? 2021-02-09T19:38:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:39:54Z Nilby: I'm not a compiler expert, but I don't think so. Rather a call to a function that only calls another function with the same arguments is an easy target for optimization. When you set the definintion, it just calls whatever it's set to. 2021-02-09T19:40:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:40:21Z Nilby: or whatever it can prove is equivalet code 2021-02-09T19:42:34Z Nilby: I think these detail of porting Interlisp would probably work out. I would guess that the hard part might be some kind of custom I/O routines, libraries or something? 2021-02-09T19:44:18Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T19:44:58Z frodef``` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:44:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:45:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:46:29Z frodef`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T19:46:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:47:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:49:17Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:50:30Z nij: For those who use lisp repl as main shell, which cronjob service do you use? 2021-02-09T19:50:37Z jcowan: The hard thing so far is NLAMBDA, the variant of LAMBDA that does not evaluate its arguments. That may be a showstopper altogether. Some NLAMBDAs can be mechanically converted to macros, but probably not all of them. 2021-02-09T19:50:55Z jcowan: see "Fexprs Considered Harmful" 2021-02-09T19:50:56Z rogersm_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-09T19:51:53Z amplituhedron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T19:52:31Z prxq: nij: people actually do that? 2021-02-09T19:52:33Z amplituhedron joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:53:22Z nij: prxq: it's happening 2021-02-09T19:53:36Z nij: https://ambrevar.xyz/lisp-repl-shell/index.html <== very comprehensive write-up, appearing just 2 days ago. 2021-02-09T19:54:00Z nij: should be a video up soon too. very excited. 2021-02-09T19:56:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:56:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:57:37Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:57:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T19:57:47Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:57:58Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T19:57:58Z Nilby: jcowan: I converted some code from old Lisp that used fexprs and I just made a short define-fexpr macro which seemed to work. I'm sure one can make an nlambda macro too. 2021-02-09T19:58:28Z jcowan: Do you still have the macro somewhere? 2021-02-09T19:59:46Z Nilby: Let me check... 2021-02-09T20:00:34Z amplituhedron quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-09T20:00:39Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T20:01:04Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T20:07:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:07:58Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T20:10:39Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:11:15Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-09T20:11:30Z Nilby: jcowan: I think the techinque used here https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2287#2287 wouldn't be appropriate for IL, but probably should work with a slighly modified apply function. But you can get the idea. An FEXPR in CL can basicaly be a function and macro. But you should probably ask someone who work on compilers. 2021-02-09T20:11:35Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T20:11:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:12:21Z jcowan: Thanks 2021-02-09T20:12:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T20:13:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:14:13Z Nilby: I'm pretty sure I've seen code the does nlambda in CL, since I think old Maclisp had nlambda. 2021-02-09T20:15:10Z Nilby: Also, some hacker ethic dictates, never take "it can't be done" for an answer. 2021-02-09T20:16:11Z jcowan: It can always be done with another layer of indirection, yes. But the right thing to do when trying to emulate a Lisp in which compiled functions are represented by their addresses as fixnums is to say hell no. 2021-02-09T20:19:28Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T20:20:37Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:21:21Z Nilby: A function boils down to an address in CL and every langauge, it's just Lisp has quite a bit of other information about it. A symbol is really just a number too. All the other detail can be stored separately. Anyway even if it's a 10x slowdown, it still be 1000x faster than the old hardware ran it. 2021-02-09T20:24:00Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:24:29Z prxq: it's all bits if you look closely enough. And heaps of cranky assembly. 2021-02-09T20:25:09Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-09T20:26:46Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:26:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T20:27:33Z nij: it's all particles are waves if you look even closer 2021-02-09T20:27:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:27:57Z nij: and probably at the end there's nothing 2021-02-09T20:28:02Z nij: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81 2021-02-09T20:30:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T20:30:51Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:31:05Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T20:32:57Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T20:33:17Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:33:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T20:34:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:34:52Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:36:07Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T20:36:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T20:36:40Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:38:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T20:38:52Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:39:01Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:39:40Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:40:27Z Cthulhux quit (Quit: ne praeteriverit priusquam obesa cantaverit) 2021-02-09T20:40:45Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:40:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T20:41:11Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:43:45Z miasuji joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:43:45Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T20:46:16Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2021-02-09T20:46:16Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2021-02-09T20:52:29Z nij: --------- 2021-02-09T20:53:02Z nij: We have symbols like cl-user:foo.. how about deeper symbols? -- cl-user:foo:bar:hello ? 2021-02-09T21:00:47Z equwal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T21:00:53Z Josh_2: pve: thanks! 2021-02-09T21:02:31Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-09T21:05:25Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-09T21:05:26Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-09T21:07:14Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-09T21:07:23Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-09T21:09:09Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-09T21:09:59Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-09T21:10:15Z miasuji quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-09T21:11:38Z Nilby: deeper symbols? like cl-luser:how:about:lets:not:turn:lisp:into:java:mmmkay 2021-02-09T21:15:45Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T21:16:16Z nij: Nilby: yeap! 2021-02-09T21:16:36Z nij: I tried (defvar cl-user:a:b 3) without luck 2021-02-09T21:16:46Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T21:18:27Z prxq: nij: we don't have that. There is a hierarchical package thing using the period, but it used to be simply a convention. foo.bar.baz::something 2021-02-09T21:18:27Z Nilby: One could make a reader macro, and even make it mean something like defined-in-package, but why? 2021-02-09T21:18:42Z phoe: a reader macro wouldn't work 2021-02-09T21:18:48Z phoe: a modification to the lisp reader would be necessary 2021-02-09T21:19:00Z phoe: unless you want to prefix your package names with something. I wrote a similar thing some time ago 2021-02-09T21:19:25Z prxq: I only remember that the hierarchical package effort had to deal with far too many thorny issues to be worth it. 2021-02-09T21:20:29Z Nilby: phoe: You're right. I guess I'm thinking again of my lovely pet *read-intern*. 2021-02-09T21:21:17Z gabiruh quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-09T21:21:35Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2021-02-09T21:21:45Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T21:22:13Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-09T21:30:32Z _death: I think jasom had a project where packages a named by symbols.. so maybe a:b:c would work there 2021-02-09T21:33:55Z nij: Nilby: for flexibility sake.. why not @@? 2021-02-09T21:36:06Z gabiruh quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-09T21:36:28Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2021-02-09T21:37:24Z jasom: I installed a reader macro for every single character in unicode to get that to work; I agree that a readtable entry for tokens would be wonderful. 2021-02-09T21:38:08Z jasom: If you are willing to limit yourself to the initial character of symbols being in latin-1, you can do it without making the readtable gigantic 2021-02-09T21:38:29Z jasom: s/latin-1/latin-1 or any other small subset of unicode/ 2021-02-09T21:38:40Z Nilby: jasom: Sounds like you could have used *read-inter* too. 2021-02-09T21:39:07Z nij: (defun 😂:laugh-so-hard-until-tears-come-out () "Just lol!" (print "😂")) 2021-02-09T21:39:17Z phoe: nij: that is already possible 2021-02-09T21:39:25Z nij: phoe: you mean a:b:c? 2021-02-09T21:39:43Z phoe: no, (😂:laugh-so-hard-until-tears-come-out) 2021-02-09T21:39:52Z jasom: phoe: I think they were responding to my comment about restricting package names to start with latin-1 in order to get custom interning 2021-02-09T21:40:29Z nij: phoe: you're super quick 2021-02-09T21:40:36Z nij: yeah i know xD 2021-02-09T21:40:42Z phoe: jasom: oop, yes 2021-02-09T21:40:46Z nij: s/xD/😂😂😂 2021-02-09T21:41:27Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/spm-reader/blob/master/spm-example.lisp <-- don't use this in production, but this uses the keyword package as the root, so you can do :foo:bar:baz for absolute referencing and foo:bar:baz for referecning things relative to *package* 2021-02-09T21:41:27Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-09T21:41:38Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T21:42:14Z jasom: Nilby: hookable interning would also have made package-local-nicknames implementable as a library 2021-02-09T21:42:51Z Nilby: In case your wondering what I mean https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2288#2288 2021-02-09T21:43:09Z Nilby: I've been using it for years. It solves many problems. 2021-02-09T21:43:15Z _death: eclector is great for such things 2021-02-09T21:43:30Z jasom: Nilby: that's SBCL only, right? 2021-02-09T21:44:28Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T21:44:57Z jasom: _death: nice; I don't think that existed when I did the spm-reader. I used pjb's lovely implementation, which required making spm-reader GPL licensed. 2021-02-09T21:45:02Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-09T21:45:31Z phoe: yes, eclector is a fairly recent development 2021-02-09T21:45:33Z Nilby: I did it to ccl and ecl too. It's a very easy pactch. 2021-02-09T21:46:06Z phoe: Nilby: nice 2021-02-09T21:46:25Z Nilby: I use eclector as a workaroud on unpatched lisps, but it's a pretty heavy workaround. 2021-02-09T21:46:41Z Nilby: You'd be suprised how many things that enables. 2021-02-09T21:46:45Z jasom: I would rather it were an extra field in the readtable than its own special, but I would take anything if it would be upstreamed 2021-02-09T21:47:12Z Nilby: phoe: I bet if you asked every implementaion to accept *read-intern*, it might actaully happen. 2021-02-09T21:48:45Z Nilby: phoe: You're like the first in a long time to make a nearly universal defacto change like PLN. 2021-02-09T21:49:45Z phoe: uhhhh 2021-02-09T21:49:49Z phoe: I didn't make PLN 2021-02-09T21:49:52Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-09T21:49:56Z phoe: I only implemented it in CCL, really 2021-02-09T21:50:18Z phoe: which was like the last missing puzzle, other than CLISP which got an implementation by mood_ not long afterwards 2021-02-09T21:51:26Z ezekielwordswort joined #lisp 2021-02-09T21:52:29Z Nilby: I don't know, but it seems like you got the momentum goiing for it to be complete 2021-02-09T21:52:48Z phoe: I kinda guess so 2021-02-09T21:53:11Z phoe: again, it wasn't *that* much work to be done when I started the work on the CCL implementation 2021-02-09T21:53:25Z ezekielwordswort: hey did you guys know that typing "!cliki" on duckduckgo takes you to cliki automatically, i mean its not really useful but its quite neat to know 2021-02-09T21:53:26Z phoe: SBCL, ECL, Clasp, ACL, ABCL, these all already supported PLNs 2021-02-09T21:53:54Z phoe: ezekielwordswort: TIL! 2021-02-09T21:54:26Z Nilby: thankfully SBCL and CCL have essentiall the same reader 2021-02-09T21:54:33Z ezekielwordswort: it also supports "!clhs" which i guess you know what does, but it takes you to the lispworks website instead of the hyperspec 2021-02-09T21:54:51Z Nilby: clisp is the one i find hard to patch 2021-02-09T21:56:25Z paulj joined #lisp 2021-02-09T21:56:49Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T21:57:27Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-09T21:57:41Z ezekielwordswort: i prefer using SBCL but my muscle memory automatically takes me to clisp 2021-02-09T21:58:42Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-09T22:00:21Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T22:03:00Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-09T22:06:33Z engblom quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-09T22:06:42Z engblom joined #lisp 2021-02-09T22:08:08Z _death: makes me wonder how you start your lisp.. 2021-02-09T22:11:37Z nij: any way to run cron jobs in a lispy way? 2021-02-09T22:13:43Z mfiano: |3b| made PLN 2021-02-09T22:13:52Z aeth: nij: have an image already running as a daemon and just talk to it with the cron job? 2021-02-09T22:14:20Z aeth: nij: otherwise, just like any other script 2021-02-09T22:14:40Z jasom: nij: I wrote something that checks timetstamps against the previously run job, and I call it every minute from cron, but it's proprietary 2021-02-09T22:14:49Z _death: think everyone writes their own 2021-02-09T22:15:27Z aeth: If it's rarely run and you don't want to persist the image, then you just run it like a script, e.g. sbcl --non-interactive --load some-entry-point-file.lisp 2021-02-09T22:15:54Z jasom: it uses local-time so that job times can be specified in arbitrary timezones, which was a requirement because neither UTC nor the local-time of the host it ran on worked for everyone with DST 2021-02-09T22:18:25Z engblom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T22:18:35Z engblom joined #lisp 2021-02-09T22:19:13Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-09T22:20:01Z nij: jasom: :-( 2021-02-09T22:20:10Z nij: i see @@ 2021-02-09T22:26:17Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T22:31:04Z ezekielwordswort: any example recursive descent parsers written in lisp 2021-02-09T22:37:58Z frodef`` joined #lisp 2021-02-09T22:38:45Z frodef``` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-09T22:40:07Z jasom: ezekielwordswort: I needed an rfc-2822 parser way too late at night and wrote this monstrosity once: https://gist.github.com/jasom/57333266b96dfde352956f779dd366d1 2021-02-09T22:43:03Z jasom: nij: it was fairly specialized to running daily tasks anyways; you could have any number of daily tasks, but it wouldn't do weekly, and the only way to do hourly would be to set up 24 tasks. As _death said it's the sort of thing that's just hard enough to be annoying and just easy enough that nobody has gone to the extra effort of making their special-purpose code general-purpose 2021-02-09T22:44:23Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-09T22:47:24Z phoe: why I should not think lisp 12 minutes before midnight: INSURE-CLASS-USING-CLASS 2021-02-09T22:47:31Z phoe: time to sleep, good night #lisp 2021-02-09T22:48:18Z jasom: At least if your class gets damaged, it will be financially sound. 2021-02-09T22:48:49Z ezekielwordswort quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-02-09T22:53:48Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-09T22:56:06Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-09T22:56:57Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2021-02-09T22:59:33Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-09T23:01:18Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2021-02-09T23:02:26Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-09T23:04:07Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-09T23:05:32Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-09T23:11:01Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-09T23:11:06Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-09T23:13:59Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-09T23:15:46Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-09T23:19:50Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-09T23:21:26Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-09T23:27:31Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-09T23:31:22Z Wezl quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-02-09T23:33:15Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-02-09T23:35:46Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-09T23:35:51Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-09T23:40:23Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-09T23:42:46Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-09T23:43:56Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-09T23:46:32Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-02-09T23:48:07Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-09T23:49:09Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-09T23:51:26Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-09T23:51:38Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-09T23:56:53Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T00:01:41Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-02-10T00:04:50Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T00:10:12Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-02-10T00:10:41Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-10T00:10:51Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T00:11:50Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-10T00:14:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T00:18:18Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-02-10T00:21:31Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T00:22:56Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T00:23:17Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-10T00:23:38Z slyrus1 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-10T00:25:39Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T00:30:08Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T00:30:23Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-10T00:33:30Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-10T00:38:02Z torbo joined #lisp 2021-02-10T00:48:00Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T00:55:48Z frodef`` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T01:00:21Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-10T01:02:49Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T01:03:07Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-10T01:09:07Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-10T01:09:20Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T01:12:55Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-10T01:17:22Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T01:19:36Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T01:24:40Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-10T01:38:04Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-10T01:42:20Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T01:45:33Z mister_m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T01:46:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T01:47:59Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-02-10T01:48:25Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-10T01:48:36Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-10T01:52:32Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-10T01:56:33Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T01:58:11Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-10T02:02:50Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T02:03:02Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T02:04:33Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-10T02:08:26Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-02-10T02:08:43Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-10T02:08:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T02:10:56Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-10T02:10:57Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-02-10T02:10:57Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-10T02:10:57Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-10T02:11:12Z luis quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-10T02:11:28Z fouric: ,memo kpoeck the linuxarm.tar.gz from github yields "illegal instruction" on my arm1176jzf-s 2021-02-10T02:11:39Z fouric: .memo kpoeck the linuxarm.tar.gz from github yields "illegal instruction" on my arm1176jzf-s 2021-02-10T02:11:44Z fouric: hm. 2021-02-10T02:12:01Z Bike: ::notify fouric i think this ought to work 2021-02-10T02:12:02Z Colleen: Bike: Got it. I'll let fouric know as soon as possible. 2021-02-10T02:12:15Z fouric: aha, ty Bike (and Colleen) 2021-02-10T02:12:15Z Colleen: fouric: Bike said 13 seconds ago: i think this ought to work 2021-02-10T02:12:17Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T02:12:32Z fouric: ::notify kpoeck the linuxarm.tar.gz from github yields "illegal instruction" on my arm1176jzf-s 2021-02-10T02:12:33Z Colleen: fouric: Got it. 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(www.adiirc.com)) 2021-02-10T03:57:15Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:01:09Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:01:21Z wsinatra quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-10T04:02:15Z beach joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:02:22Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:02:31Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:03:18Z wsinatra quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-10T04:03:27Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:03:28Z mister_m` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T04:04:07Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:04:20Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-10T04:04:54Z wsinatra quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-10T04:05:01Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:05:04Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:05:41Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:06:35Z wsinatra quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-10T04:07:49Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T04:08:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:09:11Z recalloc: I've found a library that depends on both trivial-utf-8 and babel, so I thought I'd go through moving all the trivial-utf-8 stuff over. Is it safe to assume the special variable babel:*default-encoding* will remain UTF-8, or should I explicitly set the encoding each call, or is there a way to dynamic-bind that variable for a whole file? 2021-02-10T04:12:52Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:14:12Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T04:14:17Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:14:51Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T04:14:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:16:23Z epony joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:17:16Z spectra26 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:18:39Z jasom: recalloc: there is no such thing as a dynamic binding for a "whole file" since a file is a lexical unit. For a library you'll pretty much have to specify the encoding every time because you can't rely on consumers of your library not changing the default. 2021-02-10T04:18:48Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2021-02-10T04:19:08Z saganman joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:21:33Z recalloc: jasom: Aight, I suppose I figured the worst-case was right. Fortunately I don't call it enough times to make it a bother 2021-02-10T04:21:56Z veera quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:22:10Z jerme_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T04:22:20Z veera joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:22:21Z jerme_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:22:25Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:22:42Z recalloc: babel and trivial's relevant API is very close, fortunately. Looks like the tests all pass and my dependent project doesn't break either. 2021-02-10T04:23:50Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:24:18Z alanz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T04:24:29Z alanz_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:25:36Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:25:56Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:29:38Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:30:43Z recalloc: https://github.com/fukamachi/fast-websocket/pull/7 2021-02-10T04:31:16Z recalloc: Fukamachi was active less than a week ago to GitHub, so I'm hoping it gets his approval 2021-02-10T04:33:42Z spectra26 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:34:52Z jasom: if trivial-utf-8 is faster than babel, he might reject it. 2021-02-10T04:35:45Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:37:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:37:47Z alanz_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:49Z waleee-cl quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:50Z larme quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:51Z lowryder_ quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:53Z bjorkintosh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:54Z midre quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:54Z specbot quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:54Z v3ga quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:55Z grobe0ba quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:56Z edgar-rft quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:57Z ey[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:57Z flip214 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:58Z penguwin quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:58Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-10T04:37:59Z recalloc: That's true. Regardless of whether he rejects it, I think I've done my part. Unless I can convince that babel is somewhat faster or comparable. 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z alanz_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z larme joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z lowryder_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z midre joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z specbot joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z grobe0ba joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z ey[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z flip214 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z penguwin joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:42:18Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:43:41Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T04:43:41Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T04:44:30Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:45:05Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:45:07Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:45:15Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:45:15Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:45:19Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 253 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:45:33Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:45:36Z Lolicon[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:45:40Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:45:56Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:45:58Z nckx joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:45:59Z ThaEwat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:46:03Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:46:09Z 94KAABSF3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:46:09Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:46:16Z posthuman_egrego quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:46:19Z 18WABNFN4 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:46:37Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:46:51Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:47:32Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:48:12Z anunnaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:48:12Z recalloc: My project indirectly depends on both puri and quri, but because of how it's organized, I see no good way of migrating a system from one dependency to the other 2021-02-10T04:48:15Z gabiruh quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-10T04:48:26Z jdormit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:48:29Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:48:40Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:48:44Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:48:57Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:49:08Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:49:08Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:49:26Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:49:26Z christopheroei[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:49:28Z recalloc: lispcord requires websocket-driver-client requires quri, but also lispcord requires drakma requires puri. Less a matter of technically migrating the dependency, but more about encouraging either drakma or websocket to move to the other 2021-02-10T04:49:45Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:49:45Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:49:45Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:49:56Z recalloc: So I think the best action is to leave it as-is. 2021-02-10T04:50:06Z theothornhill[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:50:07Z anotherone9999[m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:50:22Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:50:22Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T04:50:32Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-10T04:51:54Z recalloc: Oh, I see someone else has bothered to do it for me 5 years ago 2021-02-10T04:52:58Z recalloc: 6 years*, it's 2021 2021-02-10T04:56:07Z ey[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-10T04:56:09Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp 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Anywhere.) 2021-02-10T07:58:41Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T07:58:54Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:01:03Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:03:31Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T08:04:19Z frodef`` joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:09:52Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:11:24Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:13:04Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T08:17:00Z contrapunctus: Hm, I can't seem to figure out how to use `legit` to get the repository tree. I tried `git-ls-tree`, but I'm not sure how to use that value...it's not a list of strings, or even a string, like I might expect 🤔 2021-02-10T08:17:08Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-10T08:17:51Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T08:19:33Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:19:34Z phoe: git-ls-tree? I can't see it in the current version of legit 2021-02-10T08:19:47Z phoe: (apropos "git-ls-tree") gives me nothing 2021-02-10T08:19:51Z contrapunctus: oh sorry, `git-ls-files` 2021-02-10T08:21:59Z phoe: contrapunctus: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2290#2290 2021-02-10T08:22:56Z contrapunctus: phoe: Oh thanks 😀 2021-02-10T08:23:27Z phoe: basically: intercept the standard output, split by newline 2021-02-10T08:23:42Z phoe: that's a common idiom to do with Lisp programs that print to *s-o* 2021-02-10T08:24:10Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:24:37Z phoe: oh, seems like you can use legit:*git-output* instead of *s-o* 2021-02-10T08:24:40Z phoe: that works too 2021-02-10T08:27:28Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T08:28:43Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:34:53Z lavaflow quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T08:36:06Z contrapunctus: phoe: say, why are there parens around `*standard-output*` in your example? 🤔 2021-02-10T08:38:02Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:38:28Z contrapunctus: Oh nevermind 2021-02-10T08:39:08Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:39:45Z contrapunctus: (The arglist is `(var &optional string-form &key element-type) declaration* form*` and not, as I imagined, `(var &optional string-form &key element-type declaration* form*)` 😅) 2021-02-10T08:41:21Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:44:31Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:45:17Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-10T08:49:08Z ralt joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:00:04Z chipk[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-02-10T09:01:31Z Major_Biscuit quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-02-10T09:04:11Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T09:04:37Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:05:39Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:07:18Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:07:39Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T09:07:54Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T09:08:08Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:08:22Z jonatack_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-10T09:08:43Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:08:48Z jonatack_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-10T09:08:51Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:09:05Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T09:09:33Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:10:14Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T09:12:35Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T09:13:59Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T09:14:51Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-10T09:16:11Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:17:26Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:26:32Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:32:47Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:41:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:42:51Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T09:43:11Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-10T09:57:37Z frodef`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T09:59:02Z phoe: `(var &optional ... &key ... &body forms)` would be one crazy macro lambda list 2021-02-10T10:02:45Z contrapunctus: Hahaha 2021-02-10T10:03:35Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-10T10:04:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T10:04:14Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T10:04:59Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:05:41Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T10:06:16Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:08:16Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:10:21Z catt joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:11:22Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:13:14Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T10:13:33Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:15:11Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-10T10:16:55Z jello_pudding joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:17:33Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T10:17:38Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:17:39Z cchristiansen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T10:24:50Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:24:52Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T10:25:02Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:27:05Z contrapunctus: I figured I could remove the choice paralysis by using CLOS to define multiple backends, thus being able to use any kind of Git library (or even other VCS libraries) 2021-02-10T10:29:00Z gj joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:33:05Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T10:33:16Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:37:51Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T10:41:15Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-10T10:50:15Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-02-10T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - 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How do I inspect a CL program? Stumpwm has been shooting my CPU to 200% and heating my machine, for example. I can connect to it through a swank/slynk server. Hopefully I can look into its internal. 2021-02-10T13:02:07Z buriedalive joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:02:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T13:02:13Z buriedalive quit (Connection closed) 2021-02-10T13:03:10Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:03:14Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-10T13:03:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T13:04:22Z Xach: nij: one option is to interrupt each thread to print or save a backtrace - that can give you an idea of who is doing what work 2021-02-10T13:04:39Z Xach: nij: i don't have a one-liner or key to do that, sorry 2021-02-10T13:04:56Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:05:44Z nirved quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T13:06:26Z nij: can i expect to see *ALL* threads by (sb-thread:list-all-threads)? Just to double check. 2021-02-10T13:06:32Z Xach: yes 2021-02-10T13:06:39Z nirved joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:06:51Z nij: COOL. In emacs there's some profiling tool. Wonder if there's any here. 2021-02-10T13:07:35Z wsm joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:07:45Z wsm: /!\ this channel has moved to ##hamradio /!\ 2021-02-10T13:07:49Z wsm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T13:09:35Z Xach: I am not moving. 2021-02-10T13:09:48Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:11:18Z frgo quit 2021-02-10T13:11:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T13:11:43Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T13:11:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T13:13:52Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T13:13:54Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:13:58Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:14:27Z AuctusBS joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:14:34Z EvilWerezombieQy joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:14:35Z AuctusBS: /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\ 2021-02-10T13:14:36Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:14:37Z EvilWerezombieQy: /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\ 2021-02-10T13:15:27Z AuctusBS quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T13:15:33Z Xach: What on earth. 2021-02-10T13:16:08Z orboZ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:16:10Z orboZ: /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\ 2021-02-10T13:16:11Z EvilWerezombieQy quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T13:16:24Z nij: /|\ <== this symbol reminds me of road trip 2021-02-10T13:16:33Z orboZ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T13:16:33Z nij: wonder when we can do that soon 2021-02-10T13:16:49Z Theking^eQ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:16:49Z ck_: I bet they don't even socially distance the nicknames in those other channels 2021-02-10T13:16:59Z Theking^eQ: /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\ 2021-02-10T13:17:31Z nij: ck_: lol 2021-02-10T13:18:06Z Theking^eQ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T13:21:34Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:21:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:22:10Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T13:22:34Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:27:06Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:29:00Z Inline: hewww 2021-02-10T13:29:08Z Inline: i got my makerlisp machine 2021-02-10T13:29:11Z Inline: hahaha :) 2021-02-10T13:29:28Z phoe: show me! 2021-02-10T13:29:29Z dra joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:30:54Z flip214: how about all joining and leaving that advertized channel repeatedly? should make quite a mess of the channel logs... 2021-02-10T13:31:29Z phoe: I have all joins/leaves ignored 2021-02-10T13:31:35Z phoe: also #freenode says that the spam attack seems over for now 2021-02-10T13:33:14Z nirved quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T13:34:49Z nij: Xach: I turned on another sly, and list all threads. It turns out that the only two different threads in the old instance are called "Mixer thread 44,100 Hz". 2021-02-10T13:35:07Z nij: But while I inspect, there doesn't seem to be useful information. 2021-02-10T13:35:09Z nij: https://bpa.st/4BLQ 2021-02-10T13:35:21Z nij: Should I maybe run a profiler against them? 2021-02-10T13:35:23Z catt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T13:35:45Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-10T13:37:16Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:37:36Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-10T13:38:31Z nirved joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:38:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:38:39Z nirved quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T13:38:48Z luna_is_here quit (Quit: luna_is_here) 2021-02-10T13:40:32Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:42:34Z phoe: try calling bt:interrupt-thread #'break on those threads 2021-02-10T13:42:42Z phoe: and see if the CPU usage drops 2021-02-10T13:46:40Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-10T13:46:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:47:22Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:48:43Z nij: Seems that it's destroyed.. and CPU drops from 200% to 0.2% 2021-02-10T13:48:59Z nij: wish I can see what it's playing behind the scene before it died 2021-02-10T13:49:41Z phoe: you can continue in the debugger 2021-02-10T13:49:45Z phoe: or rather 2021-02-10T13:49:49Z phoe: you can inspect the backtrace in the debugger! 2021-02-10T13:49:55Z phoe: maybe that will give you some info 2021-02-10T13:50:39Z caret joined #lisp 2021-02-10T13:50:49Z nij: but.. but it's dead 2021-02-10T13:51:12Z nij: lemme see how I can make it alive again 2021-02-10T13:52:23Z phoe: dead? 2021-02-10T13:52:26Z phoe: oh, did you kill it? 2021-02-10T13:52:40Z phoe: BREAK doesn't kill threads on its own, it just places them in the debugger 2021-02-10T13:53:58Z nij: uh I called (sbcl-thread:interrupt-thread nil) 2021-02-10T13:54:14Z nij: and a menu is up, asking me what to do next 2021-02-10T13:54:23Z nij: i guess i chose one that killed it then :-( 2021-02-10T13:56:35Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-10T13:57:58Z phoe: oop 2021-02-10T13:58:02Z Bike: sb-thread:interrupt-thread takes a function for its second argument. i think nil would be an error? 2021-02-10T14:00:53Z nij: ooop.. 2021-02-10T14:01:16Z nij: I will wait for it to come out next time. It has been present yesterday too, but i just killed the whole stumpwm. 2021-02-10T14:01:30Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-10T14:02:04Z nij: Threads are tricky. Isn't there a way to see its whole history? Like which functions it inboked, which outputs it has generated.. etc? 2021-02-10T14:03:00Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:03:25Z Bike: if every thread recorded that stuff the system would be way slower. 2021-02-10T14:03:45Z Bike: certainly they wouldn't be running at 44 kHz 2021-02-10T14:05:03Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T14:09:22Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:09:26Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-10T14:09:34Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-10T14:10:24Z flip214: nij: Bike: I'd really love for SBCL to generate DWARF information - then this could be fetched via perf and similar tools, without too heavy performance impacts 2021-02-10T14:10:31Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-10T14:10:33Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:10:49Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:14:00Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:14:22Z nij is trying to read up what DWARF is. Hang on folks. 2021-02-10T14:14:56Z nij has to read up stuff quite often. The amount of new terminologies, to him, seem infinite. 2021-02-10T14:16:51Z Bike: it's a format for recording debugging information 2021-02-10T14:17:24Z nij: yep that's what i know so far 2021-02-10T14:17:24Z Bike: flip214 is probably thinking of things like dtrace that can get "samples" of what a process is doing from outside 2021-02-10T14:17:36Z nij: DTRACE! Another term :D 2021-02-10T14:17:48Z Nilby: I don't think lisp matches very well with the way DWARF works. It might be better to do it with a lisp tool, perhaps using techniques like sb-sprof. 2021-02-10T14:17:58Z nij: Bike: yeah but as you said, if everything is logged, then the speed is bad. 2021-02-10T14:18:06Z nij: So the problem is.. what are the things that must be logged? 2021-02-10T14:18:17Z flip214: Nilby: as long as you don't recompile, dwarf information should be good enough - especially when running a full image. 2021-02-10T14:18:56Z Bike: we use dwarf in clasp and it works alright, though we don't present as much information as we ought to yet 2021-02-10T14:19:05Z flip214: perf just records instruction pointers via frame pointers, but from kernel space, deduplicates stack traces, and lets userspace resolve them to names. 2021-02-10T14:20:45Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T14:21:03Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:22:45Z Nilby: But DWARF stuff will only be there for things done compile-file? Or does it get dynamic stuff? 2021-02-10T14:26:04Z nij: Debugging, profiling, logging, testing - These seem to be a broader/generaler discipline. I should read some general information up I guess. I'm self-taught in CS.. could you recommend some reference that's great about this? 2021-02-10T14:26:34Z nij: Like.. I read the CL cookbook on those topics, but they seem too specific. I don't even have the general idea of what should be done. 2021-02-10T14:27:12Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-10T14:28:41Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:29:02Z nij: I feel like this is more for #clschool, so I'll move this here. Sorry folks! 2021-02-10T14:29:11Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:31:41Z nij: Inline: How's your makerlisp machine going? 2021-02-10T14:33:00Z flip214: Nilby: it should save all current function names with their ranges, at least. if you do that after dynamically compiling functions, they should be included. 2021-02-10T14:33:06Z flip214: at least that's my wish. 2021-02-10T14:36:24Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-10T14:36:41Z Inline: nij: i got the full machine in a wood enclosure everything is already set up, vga-board, usb-controller-board with the usb key etc... 2021-02-10T14:37:01Z Inline: nij: i just need to find a suitable usb keyboard which fits the enclosure 2021-02-10T14:37:17Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:37:23Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:37:31Z Inline: nij: no idea but on first glance i couldn't find anything suitable on amazon or ebay yet 2021-02-10T14:37:48Z Inline: nij: doesn't have to be retro just fitting 2021-02-10T14:37:51Z Bike: Nilby: you can generate it for stuff like COMPILE, there's just no source info 2021-02-10T14:37:57Z Bike: so it'll just have where variables are and such 2021-02-10T14:38:07Z Inline: nij: and i have to order some of the quality breadboards too 2021-02-10T14:38:14Z nij: Inline: exciting! 2021-02-10T14:38:28Z nij: There should be more info coming out. I wonder what it can do (besides of fun). 2021-02-10T14:38:53Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:39:07Z Inline: nij: cause i have a lab breadboard down in my cellar, and i supplied voltage from my soldering station to it (since it can do that) but the lanes are not getting voltage or something else is not ok with it (some lanes do get voltage but not all) 2021-02-10T14:39:10Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:40:23Z Inline: heh 2021-02-10T14:40:26Z nij: heh 2021-02-10T14:40:46Z Inline: slowly but steadily i think i will complete all the needed parts in order to get started with some hobby electronics thing 2021-02-10T14:41:09Z Inline: not sure how far i can get with it, and i also discovered my eyes are not so good when looking at stuff from very near 2021-02-10T14:41:21Z Inline: so i suppose i got to get a zooming lens too or so 2021-02-10T14:41:33Z nij: sounds like a whole lot of fun! 2021-02-10T14:41:48Z Inline: ja but it takes a whole lotta time .... 2021-02-10T14:41:54Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:41:55Z Inline: especially since covid ..... 2021-02-10T14:42:15Z nij: for shipping? 2021-02-10T14:42:22Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T14:42:23Z cosimone_ is now known as cosimone 2021-02-10T14:42:24Z Inline: yes 2021-02-10T14:42:27Z Inline: ofc 2021-02-10T14:43:13Z nij: oh.. :-( Here in the states amazon and ebay still deliver fast 2021-02-10T14:43:21Z nij: dunno about overseas.. 2021-02-10T14:43:25Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:43:32Z nij: is there any OS that you can run on makerlisp already? 2021-02-10T14:44:54Z Inline: well it's fast enough yet 2021-02-10T14:45:08Z Inline: i mean still 2021-02-10T14:45:11Z Inline: meh 2021-02-10T14:45:24Z Inline: you can run CP/M on it 2021-02-10T14:45:36Z Inline: since it's a Z80 machine 2021-02-10T14:45:40Z Inline: lol 2021-02-10T14:46:00Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:46:00Z Inline: i suppose that's already installed even 2021-02-10T14:46:16Z Inline: i just need another sdcard for that device, have to look what the format is 2021-02-10T14:46:23Z nij: how about any lispos? 2021-02-10T14:47:48Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T14:48:40Z lisp-machine: nij what is lispos? 2021-02-10T14:48:53Z Inline: no idea nij 2021-02-10T14:49:09Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T14:49:32Z Nilby: nij: 8bit machines don't typically run an os in the sense you might think, they usually run one program at a time, one of which could be a thing that manipulates files and starts/boots other programs. 2021-02-10T14:49:41Z Inline: it has a builtin interpreter compatible with cl/scheme 2021-02-10T14:50:12Z Inline: hope i can find some documentation about it too 2021-02-10T14:50:15Z Inline: heh 2021-02-10T14:51:11Z nij: lisp-machine: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html 2021-02-10T14:51:30Z lisp-machine: ohhh cool! 2021-02-10T14:51:30Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-10T14:51:44Z nij: Nilby: :-( 2021-02-10T14:51:53Z Inline: welp, the output voltage form the soldering station is in the range 0-15 or some such 2021-02-10T14:52:01Z nij: /!\ 2050 is when a LispOS will be on Desktops /!\ 2021-02-10T14:52:06Z Inline: i suppose i have to buy a lab power bench too 2021-02-10T14:52:10Z Inline: some time..... 2021-02-10T14:53:00Z nij: lisp-machine: https://github.com/ghosthamlet/awesome-lisp-machine 2021-02-10T14:53:14Z Inline: it has an analog display, so the precision is not given like on a power bench 2021-02-10T14:53:22Z lisp-machine: nij: ahh yes ik that list 2021-02-10T14:54:05Z Inline: so if i should be in need of precise voltages then i have to i think 2021-02-10T14:54:13Z lisp-machine: but is there any lisp os that can actually be a daily driver? 2021-02-10T14:54:36Z Inline: there's mezzano 2021-02-10T14:54:48Z Inline: you can already put that on a usb stick or so 2021-02-10T14:55:39Z lisp-machine: Inline: right, but can you run non-mezzano software on it? or is it a closed ecosystem? 2021-02-10T14:56:15Z nij: I'm also wondering about that.. 2021-02-10T14:56:32Z Inline: i tested it a few times in qemu already 2021-02-10T14:57:00Z Inline: and it works, but the config is not easy, to change keyboard layout you have to edit some file etc etc.. 2021-02-10T14:57:02Z nij: Does any of them run x11? 2021-02-10T14:57:06Z ebrasca: nij: Mezzano does run bare metal. 2021-02-10T14:57:21Z lisp-machine: and how user-friendly is it? that's what most people care about. 2021-02-10T14:57:37Z lisp-machine: for a lisp os to become mainstream, it will have to be easy to use 2021-02-10T14:57:40Z Inline: jep bare metal, but still it need more drivers and driver-frameworks or so 2021-02-10T14:57:43Z phoe: >mainstream 2021-02-10T14:57:50Z phoe: forget about it unless you have major commercial backing 2021-02-10T14:57:56Z lisp-machine: sadly not everyone is a computer/programming geek like us 2021-02-10T14:58:27Z nij: i'd say true lispers are geeks among geeks among geeks. 2021-02-10T14:58:41Z nij: Does the population supercedes 10,000, in the whole world? 2021-02-10T14:58:54Z phoe: lisp-machine: either you have the heaps of money to get the required corporate backing, write or port all the software for that OS and to make the OS robust and secure and fast enough, or you don't get to make anything mainstream. 2021-02-10T14:58:57Z lisp-machine: nij: '(geek (geek (geek))) 2021-02-10T14:58:58Z Inline: even if i supply -kbd de from qemu you have to change it manually too, otherwise you have a horrible mixture and confusion 2021-02-10T14:59:05Z Inline: heh 2021-02-10T14:59:31Z nij: Inline: you should write a blog on that 2021-02-10T14:59:39Z lisp-machine: phoe: yeah ik, i was just theorizing and discussing. I don't actually plan on making a mainstream os lol. 2021-02-10T14:59:42Z nij: i got envious just by listening 2021-02-10T15:00:01Z phoe: you're not the first nor the last to theorize and dream about a lisp OS :D 2021-02-10T15:01:02Z nij: Ha ha 2021-02-10T15:01:19Z lisp-machine: of all the programming languages it's a great candidate for writing an os; maybe you could even write an os that's simply a running lisp repl (obviously that's a major oversimplification, but still...). 2021-02-10T15:01:57Z phoe: well, mezzano is a proof that it can be done with relatively little code - see the recent hacker news discussion o it 2021-02-10T15:02:00Z phoe: on it* 2021-02-10T15:02:11Z lisp-machine: ah 2021-02-10T15:02:13Z phoe: the issue is, as always, not enough people to do the boring work related to it 2021-02-10T15:02:39Z lisp-machine: but who wants to do boring work, for free?? :D 2021-02-10T15:02:51Z nij: But w ecan start making lisp repl as our main shell. 2021-02-10T15:03:03Z lisp-machine left #lisp 2021-02-10T15:03:04Z nij: That would bring the experience closer to what you describe. 2021-02-10T15:03:16Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:03:26Z nij: https://ambrevar.xyz/lisp-repl-shell/index.html <== a fresh, great write-up 2021-02-10T15:03:51Z Inline: welp, i intend to actually get a whole system on breadboard 2021-02-10T15:04:03Z Inline: like the one from ben eater 2021-02-10T15:04:08Z Inline: eater.net 2021-02-10T15:04:20Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:04:50Z Inline: that's just 6502 but anyway for getting a true understanding with computing i suppose it's a very good start 2021-02-10T15:06:28Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T15:06:47Z lisp-machine quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-10T15:07:03Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:07:37Z Josh_2: https://www.timmons.dev/posts/static-executables-with-sbcl.html anyone seen this? 2021-02-10T15:08:24Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T15:09:11Z Josh_2: Can't say I understand how it works but I think it would be a good feature 2021-02-10T15:09:27Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:09:36Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:10:25Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T15:11:28Z beach: I wonder why my article on CLOSOS/LispOS seems to get more publicity than Mezzano. I mean, Mezzano exists, whereas CLOSOS is still vaporware. I know that CLOSOS suggests more advanced basic features than Mezzano does, but most people who speculate/dream about a LispOS probably haven't given much thought to such features. 2021-02-10T15:11:44Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:12:15Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T15:12:15Z cosimone_ is now known as cosimone 2021-02-10T15:12:24Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:13:35Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-10T15:13:55Z Nilby: Things always seems to work better in my imagination. 2021-02-10T15:14:12Z phoe: the grass is always greener on the other side too 2021-02-10T15:14:13Z Nilby: I run a mostly lisp command-line setup on top of other os's, but the big hurdles are fully replacing emacs, a browser, and a window system. 2021-02-10T15:14:25Z nij: Theories are clean, elegant, and appealing. 2021-02-10T15:14:26Z Gnuxie[m]: Was it posted somewhere? 2021-02-10T15:14:38Z nij: When they got implemented, lots of dirty stuffs go around. 2021-02-10T15:15:27Z nij: Nilby: could you elaborate? 2021-02-10T15:15:38Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:15:46Z Nilby: But Mezzano is coming along well, and can run Doom, so 2021-02-10T15:16:17Z nij: DOOM? 2021-02-10T15:16:23Z phoe: doom 2021-02-10T15:16:29Z phoe: ported from C via LLVM-IR 2021-02-10T15:17:03Z flip214: no python, ruby, json, javascript, and perl inbetween? sad. 2021-02-10T15:17:11Z Josh_2: I think my fridge can run doom 2021-02-10T15:18:55Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:18:55Z nij: It seems that why Lisp is great is essentially because of structures.. can anyone correct me on this point? 2021-02-10T15:19:01Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T15:19:10Z phoe: structures? 2021-02-10T15:19:12Z phoe: what do you mean? 2021-02-10T15:19:50Z nij: In UNIX, communications among units are in the form of text, which lacks structures. 2021-02-10T15:20:20Z nij: So artificial transformations must be done, and that's pretty tedious and not flexible. 2021-02-10T15:20:27Z phoe: that isn't Lisp being good 2021-02-10T15:20:31Z phoe: that is Unix being horrible 2021-02-10T15:20:53Z phoe: you can structure your data with Lisp, Java, C++, Python, Perl, Haskell, Elm, C, literally almost every language out there 2021-02-10T15:21:14Z nij: xD 2021-02-10T15:21:16Z phoe: it's unix that tried to coerce everything into files and byte streams, and failed horribly at that. 2021-02-10T15:21:33Z nij: s/failed/succeeded/ 2021-02-10T15:21:35Z nij: sadly 2021-02-10T15:21:44Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-10T15:21:48Z Gnuxie[m]: If Unix had more parenthesis i'm sure a few people here would be dying to call masochism lisp 2021-02-10T15:21:49Z phoe: no, failed 2021-02-10T15:22:04Z Inline: eh ? 2021-02-10T15:22:08Z phoe: it tried to assume that everything is a file 2021-02-10T15:22:11Z Inline: you haven't tried GUIX then 2021-02-10T15:22:12Z Nilby: Lisp is great because it reflects how universes work on a fundamental level more thoroughly than most languages. 2021-02-10T15:22:13Z Inline: lol 2021-02-10T15:22:14Z nij: phoe: Well, but Lisp even preserves structures in its CODE. 2021-02-10T15:22:16Z phoe: and reality broke that assertion 2021-02-10T15:22:18Z Inline: it's schemeOS 2021-02-10T15:22:26Z jurov quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-10T15:22:48Z phoe: that's why we e.g. have ioctls all around to pretend that you can do other things with a file than merely read, write, or execute it 2021-02-10T15:22:57Z Inline: btw nixos etc are all in the same ballpark by measure of descriptiveness.... 2021-02-10T15:22:57Z nij: Inline: GUIX is still pretty much UNIX, no? 2021-02-10T15:23:04Z Nilby: But there are trouble with lisp structured pipelines also, like what structure do you want? 2021-02-10T15:23:07Z phoe: nij: code? what do you mean 2021-02-10T15:23:20Z jurov joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:23:20Z phoe: I bet $5 that the source code of unix also has some structs inside it 2021-02-10T15:23:27Z Inline: they are all descriptive, i.e. you describe stuff in files and that's how it sets up things 2021-02-10T15:23:29Z phoe: I bet $50 that linux does, too 2021-02-10T15:23:37Z nij: phoe: By code I mean the textual presentation of lisp expression. 2021-02-10T15:23:43Z phoe: oh, good 2021-02-10T15:23:44Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:23:45Z phoe: then C has those, too 2021-02-10T15:23:52Z nij: ? 2021-02-10T15:24:15Z phoe: Linux/Unix/whatever has structures in the textual presentation of C code 2021-02-10T15:24:34Z phoe: you just can't easily interface with most of them from inside the bash shell - that's the difference. 2021-02-10T15:25:06Z phoe: you're isolated via a layer of shell, and shell usually pretends that everything is text rather than structured objects. 2021-02-10T15:25:30Z phoe: the Lisp REPL doesn't pretend so 2021-02-10T15:26:57Z nij: So instead of returning plain texts, we should return what? 2021-02-10T15:27:03Z phoe: objects! 2021-02-10T15:27:04Z nij: Lisp objects? Or Lisp codes? 2021-02-10T15:27:11Z phoe: what do you mean, Lisp codes 2021-02-10T15:27:24Z phoe: every Lisp expression is a Lisp object anyway 2021-02-10T15:27:30Z nij: but not vice versea 2021-02-10T15:27:49Z nij: can you lift any Lisp object back to a Lisp expression? 2021-02-10T15:27:54Z Inline: baaah 2021-02-10T15:27:58Z Inline: i ate another usb stick 2021-02-10T15:28:07Z phoe: well, trying to evaluate ((())) is going to signal an error 2021-02-10T15:28:16Z Inline: since yesterday 128Gb stick is gone, some sectors do not react 2021-02-10T15:28:30Z Inline: i suppose it overheated overnight when i left llvm compilation on it running.... 2021-02-10T15:28:51Z nij: oop 2021-02-10T15:28:58Z Inline: i tried new formatting even that didn't work 2021-02-10T15:29:06Z Inline: neither fsck 2021-02-10T15:29:06Z phoe: oops, s/expression/form/ 2021-02-10T15:29:11Z phoe: so even though ((())) is a valid object, it's not a Lisp form 2021-02-10T15:29:27Z Inline: it tries to fix some inode counts and then it's gone for ever 2021-02-10T15:30:29Z nij: phoe: Is any Lisp object a Lisp form? 2021-02-10T15:30:39Z phoe: no - as I said above, ((())) is not a form 2021-02-10T15:31:04Z nij: Hmm.. ok. If we return objects instead of texts.. 2021-02-10T15:31:06Z Nilby: Inline: big usb sticks are more complicated that most people think. I have a paranoia that I always let them sit for a little while after writing data. 2021-02-10T15:31:07Z phoe: a form is an object that is meant to be evaluated 2021-02-10T15:31:14Z phoe: nij: do not overthink it 2021-02-10T15:31:14Z nij: How would different machines communicate? 2021-02-10T15:31:15Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:31:21Z phoe: your REPL already does this 2021-02-10T15:31:34Z phoe: it returns objects that are then printed so you can take a peek at what is inside there 2021-02-10T15:31:35Z nij: phoe: Yeah, but how about different machines? 2021-02-10T15:32:00Z phoe: and there's always the issue of serialization/deserialization over the network; see e.g. CL-CONSPACK for one library that solves this 2021-02-10T15:32:08Z nij: Foundamentally it's just 0 and 1s. I don't know how other machines would be able to understand the Lisp objects I produce locally. 2021-02-10T15:32:28Z Nilby: i've been keeping up on working out, and now I a lift almost any lisp object 2021-02-10T15:33:01Z Inline: welp, given a consecutive byte series you have the problem of where to start and in how big chunks to eat it 2021-02-10T15:33:17Z Inline: given non-consecutive it gets more hairy even 2021-02-10T15:33:23Z nij: Nilby: now you can? 2021-02-10T15:33:31Z nij: haha ok it's a joke 2021-02-10T15:33:39Z Inline: np-hard ? 2021-02-10T15:33:41Z Inline: lol 2021-02-10T15:34:18Z nij: phoe ! It claims that "Conspack provides the ability to serialize and deserialize objects of any kind." 2021-02-10T15:34:21Z nij: Is this true?!?!?!?!?! 2021-02-10T15:35:01Z Nilby: 😂 2021-02-10T15:35:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T15:35:20Z Inline: that's just for interpreting 2021-02-10T15:35:48Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:35:52Z nij: btw who is robert.strandh@gmail.com 2021-02-10T15:35:56Z phoe: nij: yes 2021-02-10T15:36:00Z phoe: as long as you teach it how to do it 2021-02-10T15:36:04Z phoe: nij: it's beach 2021-02-10T15:36:11Z Inline: if you have jump addresses encoded, then you have the problem of recognizing them and having the same instruction set etc... 2021-02-10T15:36:24Z nij: loving the blog 2021-02-10T15:36:29Z Inline: i suppose that would be the abi layer 2021-02-10T15:36:30Z nij: should binge it sometime 2021-02-10T15:36:50Z Inline: same with pointers/references etc etc 2021-02-10T15:36:57Z nij: phoe: Dang that means different machines can also exchange objects! at least in common lisp!? 2021-02-10T15:37:07Z nij: how about compiled objects? still yes? 2021-02-10T15:37:08Z Josh_2: nij: pretty sure everything is an object on windows 2021-02-10T15:37:33Z phoe: nij: what do you mean, compiled objects? 2021-02-10T15:38:27Z phoe: functions and such? these likely won't work 2021-02-10T15:38:30Z nij: eh.. like a compiled function. It's also a lisp object, right? 2021-02-10T15:38:31Z phoe: if you want to pass code around, use FASLs 2021-02-10T15:38:42Z Bike: it says "any kind" but it's in a section about CLOS 2021-02-10T15:39:10Z phoe: so likely this means classes and structures 2021-02-10T15:39:20Z nij: Bike: section name - CLOS and general objects 2021-02-10T15:39:38Z Bike: yeah, i mean, look at the rest though, it's all slots and stuff 2021-02-10T15:39:49Z Bike: i don't see how conspack could possibly de/serialize functions 2021-02-10T15:39:53Z nij: Yeah that's why i was confused. 2021-02-10T15:40:12Z phoe: Bike: not without going into implementation internals and ensuring that there's no closures in play and such 2021-02-10T15:40:32Z nij: There should be a way to do it.. hopefully it has existed already. Then machines can communicate by throwing Lisp objects at each other <3 <3 <3 2021-02-10T15:40:37Z Bike: even with internals it would be difficult. i mean, functions aren't even serializable by implementations, usually 2021-02-10T15:40:45Z Bike: through compile-file i mean 2021-02-10T15:41:04Z nij: that's bad 2021-02-10T15:41:06Z phoe: nij: erlang has it, but that's because erlang functions are much more constrained than Lisp ones 2021-02-10T15:41:10Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:41:25Z phoe: you can work around this though, just pass Lisp forms around and have the other Lisp image evaluate them 2021-02-10T15:41:28Z Bike: closures aren't so much a problem, but with literals and linking it'll get bad 2021-02-10T15:41:28Z nij: but each function, while constructed, was from an evaluation of a piece of CODE, right? 2021-02-10T15:41:52Z nij: Why don't we just ask the compiled function to remember that piece of code? 2021-02-10T15:41:54Z phoe: yes, ultimately a function is created when someone calls COMPILE or FUNCTION or COERCE or DEFUN or whatever 2021-02-10T15:41:58Z phoe: we can do that 2021-02-10T15:42:01Z phoe: clhs function-lambda-expression 2021-02-10T15:42:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm 2021-02-10T15:42:13Z Bike: because the production of a function is dependent on the context in which it was created 2021-02-10T15:42:36Z phoe: but what Bike said, not all functions can be reproduced from their textual representation 2021-02-10T15:42:41Z nij: Bike: let it remember all the information? 2021-02-10T15:42:42Z Bike: if your function source has a macro form in it, say, and you've redefined the macro between producing the function and serializing it, reproducing the function from the source will get you a function with distinct behavior 2021-02-10T15:42:54Z _death: check out common-cold for serializable closures 2021-02-10T15:43:00Z phoe checks 2021-02-10T15:43:08Z Bike: "my latest hack" 2021-02-10T15:43:16Z nij: pull the environmental details whatever it needs to re-produce ? 2021-02-10T15:43:20Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-02-10T15:43:50Z Bike: there's a lot of the environment to remember 2021-02-10T15:44:00Z Bike: whether things are special, what things are functions, what symbol macros don't exist 2021-02-10T15:44:06Z Bike: it's not impossible, but it's work 2021-02-10T15:44:07Z phoe: _death: seems like www.discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/common-cold/ does not respond 2021-02-10T15:44:29Z nij: Bike: hmm 2021-02-10T15:45:25Z nij: https://pvk.ca/Blog/Lisp/CommonCold/common_cold_latest_hack.html 2021-02-10T15:46:08Z phoe: yes, and that's all 2021-02-10T15:46:15Z phoe: the link to the code itself does not work 2021-02-10T15:46:38Z nij: phoe: right.. so back to "returning objects" 2021-02-10T15:46:49Z nij: if functions cannot easily be fully serialized 2021-02-10T15:47:01Z nij: and functions are Lisp objects that show up commonly 2021-02-10T15:47:11Z nij: how would different machines communicate? 2021-02-10T15:47:22Z phoe: look up the term Remote Procedure Call 2021-02-10T15:47:35Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:48:11Z _death: phoe: you can likely get it via wayback machine.. or I can put it online if you wish 2021-02-10T15:48:19Z phoe: _death: please do 2021-02-10T15:48:37Z phoe: the archive does not have it 2021-02-10T15:48:55Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T15:49:00Z phoe: ...oh wait, it does! 2021-02-10T15:49:45Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T15:50:20Z _death: https://adeht.org/dump/common-cold.tar.gz 2021-02-10T15:50:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:50:44Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:51:42Z phoe: thanks 2021-02-10T15:53:07Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T15:55:59Z phoe: nij: also, flinging functions around still does not solve everything 2021-02-10T15:56:51Z phoe: even if you could serialize, transmit, and deserialize (lambda () (read-byte-from-serial-port)) then I think you can imagine the trouble 2021-02-10T15:57:11Z Nilby: it's fun when you send your top level app object thru the network, and pops off of one screen on to the other 2021-02-10T15:58:32Z dra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T15:59:29Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-02-10T16:00:02Z M94KAABSF3 quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-02-10T16:00:02Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-02-10T16:00:02Z Lolicon[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-02-10T16:00:47Z nij: phoe: I cannot imagine the trouble. 2021-02-10T16:00:49Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T16:01:03Z phoe: nij: calling this function on different machines is going to produce different results 2021-02-10T16:01:04Z nij: I am still looking into the term RPC, but it's not clear to me how much it's achieved. 2021-02-10T16:01:31Z phoe: you basically tell the remote server which function it should run, and then wait for it to give you some results back 2021-02-10T16:01:36Z phoe: that's how swank works! 2021-02-10T16:01:49Z Nilby: RPC has achived quite a bit 2021-02-10T16:01:57Z nij: but how would the remote machine know what exactly is the prodedure to be run? 2021-02-10T16:02:00Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:03:04Z Nilby: for example NFS works that way with C rpc 2021-02-10T16:03:21Z Nilby: there's also multiple lisp versions of NFS 2021-02-10T16:03:38Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:03:54Z Bike: the caller and the callee processes agree on a common language of behaviors, and then the caller just sends a message naming the behavior to be performed. 2021-02-10T16:04:14Z Bike: basically the caller only needs to name a procedure to run. 2021-02-10T16:04:34Z nij: how about the information that's in the closure? 2021-02-10T16:04:34Z phoe: nij: in case of lisp, you pass it as a string 2021-02-10T16:04:48Z phoe: the closure exists on the server side 2021-02-10T16:05:04Z phoe: the client doesn't need to know about it 2021-02-10T16:05:11Z Nilby: X11 is basically RPC 2021-02-10T16:05:19Z phoe: or, rather: it tells the server that it should access that closure and give back some results 2021-02-10T16:05:24Z phoe: e.g. by calling it! 2021-02-10T16:05:24Z nij: And while client needs info from the closure, it asks the server? 2021-02-10T16:05:29Z phoe: yes 2021-02-10T16:05:36Z ikrabbe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T16:05:36Z phoe: try the following in your REPL 2021-02-10T16:05:37Z nij: DANG! O_O eye opening 2021-02-10T16:05:49Z phoe: (let ((x 42)) (lambda () x)) 2021-02-10T16:05:53Z phoe: (funcall *) 2021-02-10T16:06:00Z phoe: in both cases you are sending strings over swank 2021-02-10T16:06:10Z phoe: and yet the first string creates a functon object 2021-02-10T16:06:16Z phoe: and the second gives you the closed-over value 2021-02-10T16:06:23Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-10T16:06:53Z lisp-machine quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-10T16:06:59Z nij: how about functions over functions? Same, without a problem? 2021-02-10T16:07:00Z Nilby: also most web API's are like RPC, sometimes even with javascript sent in JSON 2021-02-10T16:07:22Z phoe: what do you mean, functions over functions? 2021-02-10T16:07:37Z nij: (let ((x #'some-func)) (lambda () x)) 2021-02-10T16:07:45Z phoe: it's a value like any other 2021-02-10T16:07:50Z _death: I think it makes sense to distinguish RPC, which tries to make remoting "transparent", and can't but fail, from communication by message passing 2021-02-10T16:07:57Z nij: nah....... 2021-02-10T16:08:00Z phoe: again, #'some-func only exists on the server side 2021-02-10T16:08:05Z nij: yeah 2021-02-10T16:08:10Z nij: the client might need it at some point 2021-02-10T16:08:20Z nij: so it asks the server to give #'some-func 2021-02-10T16:08:22Z phoe: all you see is the string "#'some-func" or the string "#" 2021-02-10T16:08:29Z nij: however, the problem is that it's hard to deliver function as a whole 2021-02-10T16:08:31Z phoe: and you come back to the issue of serialization 2021-02-10T16:08:37Z nij: yeah 2021-02-10T16:08:39Z nij: so it breaks down? 2021-02-10T16:08:55Z phoe: yes, serializing state is a tough problem in general 2021-02-10T16:09:05Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:09:16Z phoe: *especially* in image-based programs where you essentially need to pack the whole image in the worst case 2021-02-10T16:09:34Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-10T16:09:52Z nij: :-( 2021-02-10T16:10:07Z phoe: Erlang and other BEAM languages solve it by sending out functions in their bytecode-compiled format 2021-02-10T16:10:28Z phoe: but these functions are pure and do not depend on any global state, so it's easy to clean-cut a single function 2021-02-10T16:10:34Z nij: yeah 2021-02-10T16:10:51Z nij: If a function isn't pure, a closure should be sent. 2021-02-10T16:10:52Z jackdaniel: cl could send you whole heap and I think that would be brilliant 2021-02-10T16:10:53Z phoe: Lisp functions are more messy in this regard, also because they are machine-compiled in the general case 2021-02-10T16:10:57Z _death: "serialization" is often a bad solution.. more often it's better to define explicit messages or object layouts 2021-02-10T16:11:05Z phoe: ^ 2021-02-10T16:11:06Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:11:10Z jackdaniel: here is a function with a 8gb state 2021-02-10T16:11:28Z nij: _death: but that's unix? 2021-02-10T16:11:29Z nij: no 2021-02-10T16:11:36Z Fade: have any of you folks worked with cl-yesql? 2021-02-10T16:11:41Z phoe: Fade: I have 2021-02-10T16:11:42Z _death: nij: ? 2021-02-10T16:11:48Z phoe: what's unix? 2021-02-10T16:11:51Z Fade: I'm looking for a funcitonal example. 2021-02-10T16:12:05Z phoe: Fade: uh, I don't think I have anything working at this very moment... 2021-02-10T16:12:07Z phoe: one moment 2021-02-10T16:12:11Z Fade: 'cause what I'm doing is wrong. 2021-02-10T16:12:32Z phoe: try looking at https://github.com/phoe-trash/gateway/tree/master/sql 2021-02-10T16:12:36Z nij: "define explicit messages or object layouts" ... this is against what phoe said (paraphrased) "we should return objects instead of text" 2021-02-10T16:12:39Z phoe: I have not touched this code in a long while and it might have bitrotted 2021-02-10T16:12:59Z phoe: nij: yes, and what I said is usually possible on a single machine 2021-02-10T16:13:05Z Fade: thanks! 2021-02-10T16:13:07Z phoe: not over wire formats 2021-02-10T16:13:15Z _death: nij: https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/info-rep.txt 2021-02-10T16:13:37Z phoe: in particular, you cannot and should not e.g. dereference pointers over the network 2021-02-10T16:13:45Z nij: phoe: OH! That's why we need a single address space, as in beach's essay. 2021-02-10T16:13:50Z Nilby: _death always coming through with the goods :) 2021-02-10T16:13:50Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:14:01Z phoe: nij: yes 2021-02-10T16:14:06Z phoe: two machines have two address spaces 2021-02-10T16:14:10Z phoe: (just like two C programs) 2021-02-10T16:14:28Z phoe: and you cannot easily merge them unless you also merge their GCs and what else 2021-02-10T16:14:30Z nij: _death: you keep a zettlekasten or somethin'? 2021-02-10T16:14:33Z phoe: and *that* would be messy and troublesome 2021-02-10T16:14:45Z nij: phoe: HMM 2021-02-10T16:15:11Z nij: Then I wouldn't say UNIX failed.. 2021-02-10T16:15:19Z nij: at the end everything is still "text" 2021-02-10T16:15:23Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3-dev) 2021-02-10T16:15:25Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-10T16:15:39Z nij: we just need to write some protocol to lift text to objects 2021-02-10T16:16:04Z phoe: it failed at the assumption that it is feasible to represent everything as streams of bytes 2021-02-10T16:16:09Z lisp-machine: is there a way I could "farm out" intensive task threads to different pcs? 2021-02-10T16:16:14Z phoe: especially with regard to internal representation 2021-02-10T16:16:18Z phoe: lisp-machine: check out swank-crew 2021-02-10T16:16:25Z phoe: and/or lfarm 2021-02-10T16:16:34Z lisp-machine: phoe, ok thanks! 2021-02-10T16:16:41Z phoe: <3 2021-02-10T16:16:46Z lisp-machine: :) 2021-02-10T16:16:55Z _death: nij: it's all in my internal representation :/ 2021-02-10T16:17:10Z nij: _death: ha hehe 2021-02-10T16:17:24Z nij: (dump '_death) 2021-02-10T16:19:50Z Nilby: unix failed in that it wanted to be plan9/inferno, but the lisp ideas are mostly better, so instead we half-ass wanna-be lisp machine in the form javascirpt web browser 2021-02-10T16:20:29Z nij: did we? 2021-02-10T16:20:36Z cyraxjoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T16:20:52Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:21:21Z epony quit (Quit: upgrades) 2021-02-10T16:22:51Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:24:52Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T16:25:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T16:26:07Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:26:19Z _death: Accept: application/lisp 2021-02-10T16:27:11Z _death: lispers should've invented a better graphql 2021-02-10T16:28:00Z phoe: technically yes, but everyone was busy complaining about unix, and then the first ai winter happened 2021-02-10T16:29:05Z Fade: the lisp machine could not have succeeded where unix did, because shipping a computer with a graphical display and enough ram to run genera was an impossible hurdle at the time. 2021-02-10T16:29:10Z Fade: the costs were too high. 2021-02-10T16:29:35Z Fade: also, lisp machines didn't make good servers, as delivered by symbolics and TI 2021-02-10T16:29:48Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T16:33:09Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-10T16:34:11Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-10T16:34:12Z Fade: I did, however, hear that the White House website ran on a symbolics computer right up through the end of Bill Clinton's administration. 2021-02-10T16:35:59Z Nilby: I think that hints at the deeper reasons. Funding for lisp was yank. Genera ran pretty sweet on alpha, even emulated. Genera could "easily" be ported to sbcl right now if it were "allowed". 2021-02-10T16:36:22Z Fade: there are good ideas in Genera 2021-02-10T16:36:43Z Fade: I doubt any of us would actually want to use it as our computational platform day to day, now, though. 2021-02-10T16:37:07Z Fade: backfilling the tools and utility space alone would be a fulltime job. 2021-02-10T16:37:09Z nij: Fade: how would that work? Many programs we're used to won't run. 2021-02-10T16:37:26Z Fade: natch 2021-02-10T16:38:16Z Nilby: I would. What utility space? 2021-02-10T16:38:25Z Fade: you may as well just start writing the utilities you need in McCLIM. 2021-02-10T16:38:42Z kingcons quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T16:38:46Z Fade: webbrowser, compilers for C, C++ 2021-02-10T16:38:50Z Fade: webservers 2021-02-10T16:38:55Z pankajsg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T16:38:58Z kingcons joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:39:01Z Fade: I guess zmacs could be modernised 2021-02-10T16:39:07Z Nilby: The hardest parts would be making a drivers for say nvidia, wifi, etc. 2021-02-10T16:39:20Z Nilby: where stuff is hidden in blobs 2021-02-10T16:39:21Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:39:40Z Fade: if you want a lisp machine, the way forward is to take linux as a driver substrate, and write a userland on top of it. 2021-02-10T16:39:48Z Nilby: genera had a C compiler, web stuff 2021-02-10T16:40:19Z Fade: well, you can download Genera and run it. Try it out, and let us know how it goes. 2021-02-10T16:42:03Z Nilby: I can run it. Also folks around here have running Symbolics machines. The problem is like I said, drivers for new hardware. If you notice, that's the difficulty with Mezzano too. 2021-02-10T16:42:45Z Fade: that's a problem for everything that isn't inside the proprietary ecosystem. 2021-02-10T16:42:48Z aeth: You definitely want to run on top of Linux for the foreseeable future. And even if you switch to your own kernel one day, you still need to be able to run Linux apps without recompiling. Even Windows is trying to be compatible there these days. 2021-02-10T16:43:15Z aeth: Through wine, you also get most Windows stuff for "free" if you can run Linux stuff. 2021-02-10T16:43:47Z Fade: within the context of a Genera style lisp machine, a windows or linux application would be comically out of place. 2021-02-10T16:44:14Z Fade: but I do think that running on top of Linux is the only way that a lisp machine operating system would become a practical reality. 2021-02-10T16:44:18Z Fade: as neat as mezzano is. 2021-02-10T16:44:20Z Nilby: aeth: Yes, I basically agree. Although I wish it was Linux/wine on top of Genera 2021-02-10T16:44:34Z aeth: Fade: Yeah, but until you write a web browser that's fully comparable to Firefox or Safari or the many forks of Chromium, then your OS is completely unusable without being able to just run Firefox-for-Linux or whatever. 2021-02-10T16:44:48Z aeth: And some websites don't even function 100% correctly in Firefox because Chrome is a monopoly. 2021-02-10T16:44:54Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:45:31Z Fade: the proprietary secret hardware is a threat to all systems. I really hate nvidia. 2021-02-10T16:45:38Z creat_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T16:45:48Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T16:45:53Z Fade: a native graphical display system would be so cool. 2021-02-10T16:46:00Z Fade: ah well. 2021-02-10T16:46:34Z creat joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:47:09Z epony joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:47:31Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:47:59Z _death: not everyone cares for every tidbit of the web.. and ports to some hardware monocultures don't seem beyond reach.. e.g., a mezzano port for the pinephone.. 2021-02-10T16:48:38Z _whitelogger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T16:48:50Z aeth: _death: Not everyone cares about the complete web, but you can't deny that "web apps" make up for the lack of native apps for the most part. So a web browser would absolutely be the #1 priority of any new OS. 2021-02-10T16:49:08Z aeth: Probably ahead of a C compiler, even. 2021-02-10T16:49:11Z _death: aeth: I can deny that.. 2021-02-10T16:49:33Z aeth: Well, then, you're wrong. :-p 2021-02-10T16:50:02Z _death: instead of trying to make something for the 99%, I'm more interested in things that work for the <%1 that include me ;) 2021-02-10T16:50:13Z _death: <1% 2021-02-10T16:50:34Z Nilby sometimes uses a text mode brower 2021-02-10T16:50:42Z aeth: You can get around in a system where you have a complete web browser. Even if you don't like the web apps you'll have to use. 2021-02-10T16:50:52Z _death: emacs-w3m a lot.. also, gmane/gwene.. 2021-02-10T16:51:30Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:51:33Z nij: Has anyone worked with Mac OS X? I want to estimate how hard it is to port stumpwm to macbooks. 2021-02-10T16:51:41Z _death: there's already a lisp web browser (closure).. it just needs some work 2021-02-10T16:52:20Z nij: _death: why not nyxt? 2021-02-10T16:52:41Z _death: nij: that's more like a browser shell 2021-02-10T16:52:51Z phoe: it wraps a giant blob of C++ code so it's not a pure "lisp browser" technically speaking 2021-02-10T16:52:53Z aeth: we're talking more about rendering engines than browsers 2021-02-10T16:52:54Z Nilby: nij: you can't run a window manager on macbooks unless its X11, so then you can just run stumpwm 2021-02-10T16:53:11Z _death: nij: personally I stay away from web browsers (see emacs-w3m) but I guess that's another avenue if you don't mind foreign code 2021-02-10T16:53:22Z aeth: I think you can bootstrap a web browser rendering engine by implementing your UI as a subset of HTML5 and just adding more features over time, naturally. 2021-02-10T16:53:26Z aeth: Might take like 10 years, but whatever. 2021-02-10T16:53:36Z aeth: As long as it's not for the "open web" it doesn't matter. 2021-02-10T16:53:40Z nij: Nilby: I mean.. it should be possible to hack stumpwm for it to work on MacOSX right? 2021-02-10T16:54:03Z Nilby: What window manager does macos native run? 2021-02-10T16:54:10Z nij: _death: why stay away? 2021-02-10T16:54:13Z _death: nij: I do use firefox/chromium in a strange, customized setup.. but the web is mostly dead for me 2021-02-10T16:54:50Z devon joined #lisp 2021-02-10T16:55:05Z nij: Nilby: I dunno@@ but there are several that work iirc 2021-02-10T16:55:07Z aeth: _death: Well, you can avoid the web, but only if you implement a Python that's complete enough to run youtube-dl :-p 2021-02-10T16:55:20Z aeth: Despite the name, youtube-dl really does download videos from pretty much everywhere. 2021-02-10T16:55:30Z Nilby: nij: under macos without X11? 2021-02-10T16:55:39Z nij: _death: I don't really understand what you mean @@ Have you tried nyxt? 2021-02-10T16:56:02Z _death: nij: not sure it's on-topic anymore.. let's say my relationship with today's technology and the values promoted is.. ambivalent 2021-02-10T16:56:42Z _death: aeth: I have some erc hack to launch mpv for youtube links ;) 2021-02-10T16:56:58Z aeth: _death: idk about mpv, but apparently vlc just uses youtube-dl under the hood 2021-02-10T16:57:05Z _death: aeth: mpv does the same 2021-02-10T16:57:11Z Nilby: i'd say my relationship with today's technology is abusive (on both parts) 2021-02-10T16:57:22Z aeth: it's too hard for more than one project to keep up with working around the API changes in literally every site that hosts video ever 2021-02-10T16:57:36Z aeth: (well, at least non-DRMed video) 2021-02-10T16:58:05Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T16:58:48Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:00:18Z Nilby: aeth: some can jwz.org/hacks/youtubedown 2021-02-10T17:00:59Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:01:06Z aeth: Nilby: that's.... 4 sites 2021-02-10T17:01:14Z aeth: youtube-dl is literally everywhere, as I said 2021-02-10T17:01:40Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-10T17:01:58Z devon`` joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:02:16Z Nilby: true, I guess have minimal requirements 2021-02-10T17:02:19Z aeth: https://github.com/ytdl-org/youtube-dl/blob/master/docs/supportedsites.md 2021-02-10T17:02:27Z Cthulhux: if anyone here speaks rust, my own youtube-dl implementation could need everyone: https://github.com/dertuxmalwieder/yaydl 2021-02-10T17:02:28Z Cthulhux: :-) 2021-02-10T17:02:34Z aeth: 1202 lines, so 1201 sites? 2021-02-10T17:02:48Z aeth: Trust me, it would be easier to make a Python-in-CL be able to run youtube-dl than it would be to duplicate that effort 2021-02-10T17:03:42Z _death: cl-python also needs some work 2021-02-10T17:07:56Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:08:15Z Josh_2: Thats not a lisp library 2021-02-10T17:08:41Z aeth: As far as a LispOS goes, you absolutely need to reimplement-in-CL (or just support, but that's not as cool) Python, JavaScript, and probably POSIX shell. 2021-02-10T17:09:10Z aeth: Quite a few Linux distro scripts are also still written in Ruby and Perl. 2021-02-10T17:09:45Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-10T17:09:55Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:10:36Z devon`` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T17:10:40Z aeth: The old LispOSes jut needed a C compiler... 2021-02-10T17:10:53Z devon```` joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:12:22Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:13:33Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-10T17:13:55Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:16:50Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T17:17:54Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T17:19:03Z devon```` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T17:22:48Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:25:36Z hineios: Hi all, can someone explain to me why the first FORMAT outputs the correct amount of whitespace and the second one doesn't? 2021-02-10T17:25:37Z hineios: https://pastebin.com/gFyaDp40 2021-02-10T17:26:05Z hineios: I've tested with both ACL and SBCL and I have the same result. 2021-02-10T17:27:09Z aeth: oh, wow, that's a really good question 2021-02-10T17:27:59Z hineios: Its weird... if there are no format directive/argument afterwards it just does print the spaces... 2021-02-10T17:28:08Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:28:14Z phoe: this seems wonky 2021-02-10T17:28:21Z phoe: check out (format t "~&~v@{ ~}foo" 3 'foo) ! 2021-02-10T17:28:26Z phoe: it prints the spaces normally 2021-02-10T17:28:34Z phoe: even though the 'FOO argument is obviously not used 2021-02-10T17:28:36Z hineios: yes. 2021-02-10T17:28:42Z phoe: smells like a bug to me 2021-02-10T17:29:04Z hineios: if I provide the space as an argument it also prints correctly. 2021-02-10T17:29:53Z phoe: hmmm 2021-02-10T17:29:58Z phoe: maybe it has to do with ~@ 2021-02-10T17:29:59Z hineios: I thought so at first, but when both ACL and SBCL have the same behavior.... maybe it is some weird edge case? 2021-02-10T17:30:13Z _death: it looks ok to me 2021-02-10T17:30:30Z _death: the @ modifier for ~{ means the rest of the arguments are used 2021-02-10T17:30:45Z hineios: Ah! yes, I see it now! 2021-02-10T17:30:47Z _death: in the second form this list is empty 2021-02-10T17:30:58Z contrapunctus: Uhm...what's going on here? `(uiop:directory-files (uiop:getcwd))` shows that there's a .ASD file in the current directory. But `(load "file.asd")` says the file doesn't exist :( 2021-02-10T17:31:30Z hineios: thanks _death! 2021-02-10T17:31:31Z jasom: contrapunctus: getcwd is not necessarily the same as default-pathname maybe? 2021-02-10T17:31:50Z phoe: contrapunctus: *default-pathname-defaults* 2021-02-10T17:32:25Z jasom: also you should probably use load-asd for loading asd files; most of the time it doesn't matter, but when it does, it will save you some confusion 2021-02-10T17:32:54Z contrapunctus: jasom, phoe: oh...so why doesn't `uiop:chdir` not modify that variable? 🤔 2021-02-10T17:33:32Z jasom: contrapunctus: uiop:chdir will change the operationg systems current directory, which matters when you run external commands. That is different from changing the default load path for loading files. 2021-02-10T17:34:48Z contrapunctus reads about what determines the value of *default-pathname-defaults* 2021-02-10T17:34:49Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:35:56Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T17:36:07Z jasom: similarly, the following won't necessarily return "/" since the *default-pathname-defaults* may not affect the current working directory: (let ((*default-pathname-defaults* #p"/")) (uiop:run-program "pwd" :output :string)) 2021-02-10T17:37:04Z jasom: The main confusion is probably that at startup time, *default-pathname-defaults* is set to the current working directory on most implementations. 2021-02-10T17:38:14Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:38:23Z lisp-machine quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-10T17:39:37Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:42:13Z contrapunctus: Ah, I see. I was basically trying to load my system without typing out `(ql:quickload ...)` for every dependency...sounds like I wanted `asdf:load-system` 2021-02-10T17:42:23Z contrapunctus: Thanks 🙂 2021-02-10T17:47:21Z matijja quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T17:48:05Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:50:32Z hineios: _death actually I haven't seen it yet... as I understand it now, the problem is that the iteration provided by the `@` as zero elements, right? meaning that there will be no iterations. but shouldn't the `v` directive force the iteration to occur `v` times? 2021-02-10T17:51:33Z hineios: "at most"! 2021-02-10T17:51:34Z hineios: not "at least".... 2021-02-10T17:52:05Z hineios: ok, I see my error now, sorry for the monologue. 2021-02-10T17:52:19Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-10T17:52:27Z phoe: "Also, if a prefix parameter n is given, then there will be at most n repetitions of processing of str." 2021-02-10T17:52:30Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-10T17:52:36Z phoe: zero is <= than n 2021-02-10T17:52:41Z phoe: and you have zero elements in your list 2021-02-10T17:52:43Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:52:46Z phoe: so you will iterate zero times 2021-02-10T17:52:48Z phoe: I also see it now 2021-02-10T17:52:55Z hineios: Exactly! 2021-02-10T17:53:07Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T17:53:52Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:54:17Z Nilby refrains from pasting a format joke 2021-02-10T17:54:52Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T17:55:00Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-10T17:56:05Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T17:56:05Z skapate is now known as skapata 2021-02-10T17:56:29Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:01:31Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T18:02:06Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:02:15Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:02:54Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:04:57Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:09:28Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:11:45Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T18:13:11Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-10T18:13:50Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:15:00Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:22:00Z equwal quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T18:26:55Z matijja joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:31:14Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T18:32:00Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-10T18:33:30Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:34:14Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T18:34:30Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:38:37Z matijja quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-10T18:39:22Z matijja joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:41:49Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T18:42:58Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:45:28Z joethecodhr joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:46:49Z Josh_2: With regards to the hyperspec license would using iframes with direct links to the relevant pages constitute a violation of the license? 2021-02-10T18:47:11Z Josh_2: Perhaps they could be used so that the content doesn't have to be rewritten but it would make it possible for someone to add annotations or more code examples 2021-02-10T18:50:29Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-10T18:52:03Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-10T18:52:20Z pankajsg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T18:52:34Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:54:57Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:55:26Z joethecodhr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-10T18:55:37Z recalloc: Decided to benchmark babel and trivial-utf-8 and results are mixed: https://github.com/fukamachi/fast-websocket/pull/7#issuecomment-776933813 2021-02-10T18:55:54Z jcowan left #lisp 2021-02-10T18:55:54Z recalloc: Assuming fukamachi prioritizes speed, he'll likely decline the PR 2021-02-10T18:56:01Z joethecodhr joined #lisp 2021-02-10T18:56:22Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T18:57:30Z pyc: Where does slime-describe-symbol (C-d C-d C-d) fetch symbol documentation from? It does not seem to be CLHS. What is it then? 2021-02-10T18:58:35Z Bike: looks like that calls swank:describe-symbol, which just calls describe 2021-02-10T18:58:49Z Bike: which your implementation probably uses cl:documentation for 2021-02-10T19:01:40Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T19:02:28Z Josh_2: recalloc: looks like we need a new library that includes Babels encoder and Trivial UTF's decoder :P 2021-02-10T19:05:17Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T19:06:07Z recalloc: Josh_2: I'm unironically tempted to pull trivial's decoder over to babel. Gotta look at the licenses, though 2021-02-10T19:06:28Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-10T19:07:47Z recalloc: Babel's license is MIT. Trivial's is Zlib. 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So what would be a good way to not do :by 2, so that I don't have 2 instances of #'* for both i and j? 2021-02-10T20:18:33Z _death: you can loop for i from 0 below 4096 by 2 2021-02-10T20:18:41Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-02-10T20:18:56Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T20:19:24Z mfiano: Yes, ok that makes sense 2021-02-10T20:19:29Z mfiano: Thank you 2021-02-10T20:20:19Z mfiano: This is identical to the flattened original https://gist.github.com/mfiano/935c84dc279142259aeaf30449167edf 2021-02-10T20:21:18Z _death: but then why not just replace? 2021-02-10T20:21:39Z mfiano: I did that for another module of this project, but couldn't figure it out for this one 2021-02-10T20:21:50Z mfiano: Maybe I can now...will retry 2021-02-10T20:22:21Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-10T20:22:39Z _death: well, 4096 is not a divisor of 48, so may not be so pretty 2021-02-10T20:22:51Z contrapunctus: I'm making a CGI script. Compiling an executable and copying it to the server isn't much fun and I was advised to set up a remote Lisp setup, which I have. How do I load my system there, though? 🤔 Is there a better way than shuffling files between the local and the remote machine? 2021-02-10T20:23:13Z mfiano: Ah, yeah 2021-02-10T20:24:02Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T20:24:37Z _death: I meant 48 not a divisor of 4096.. guess it's not the best time to talk technical matters ;) 2021-02-10T20:25:07Z mfiano: Yes I understood what you meant. Do you think I should make it better with replace somehow, and do you have any pointers? 2021-02-10T20:25:23Z _death: mfiano: I think what you have is fine 2021-02-10T20:25:29Z mfiano: I admit, I've been at this way too long today, and I should be ready for bed soon :) 2021-02-10T20:25:43Z mfiano: Ok, thanks for the suggestions! 2021-02-10T20:27:45Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-10T20:30:19Z mfiano: _death: I may need to pick your brain for the next part if you don't mind 2021-02-10T20:30:59Z _death: sure, if I'm still here 2021-02-10T20:31:04Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/e8c5a69d5b7d358e5e2841c437d0dea6 2021-02-10T20:31:18Z mfiano: This is the old version that utilizes the unflattened array 2021-02-10T20:31:32Z mfiano: I need to figure out how to do that with the new version 2021-02-10T20:33:25Z mfiano: ALl this nonsense because it is too slow so I want perm-grad to be a specialized array :) 2021-02-10T20:35:03Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T20:36:22Z kpoeck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T20:38:43Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-10T20:39:57Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T20:40:39Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T20:42:16Z _death: well, I guess you keep source the same and (truncate x 2) when accessing it.. the rest becomes 4096 and (* 2 x) and (1+ (* 2 x)) .. the returned arrays will different so it's a breaking change 2021-02-10T20:42:39Z _death: then you can probably simplify it further 2021-02-10T20:43:09Z mfiano: hmmm 2021-02-10T20:43:24Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-10T20:43:38Z _death: there's a typo in the comment, it should say 0 and 2^32 2021-02-10T20:43:50Z mfiano: it's actually not 2021-02-10T20:44:29Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-02-10T20:44:31Z mfiano: the nil means non-inclusive, so it's between 0 and 2^32-2, inclusive (i think) 2021-02-10T20:44:55Z kenran quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-10T20:45:24Z _death: well, it's likely not 1-2*32 ;) 2021-02-10T20:45:38Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T20:45:50Z mfiano: oh imade that edit like 10 minutes ago if you refresh 2021-02-10T20:46:03Z _death: also, you may use ash instead of expt/truncate 2021-02-10T20:46:41Z mfiano: where am i using expt? 2021-02-10T20:46:50Z _death: (1- (expt 2 32)) 2021-02-10T20:46:52Z mfiano: besides the upper bound of the rng 2021-02-10T20:47:01Z _death: :) 2021-02-10T20:47:10Z mfiano: oh right 2021-02-10T20:48:24Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T20:48:50Z mfiano: i'd still have to #'1- it. 2021-02-10T20:50:28Z _death: yeah.. I don't mind expt, ash, u32-max, or #xFFFFFFFF ;) 2021-02-10T20:50:36Z mfiano: (= (1- (expt 2 32)) (1- (ash 2 31))) ; T 2021-02-10T20:50:53Z _death: (ash 1 32) 2021-02-10T20:51:04Z mfiano: that would be double what i want :) 2021-02-10T20:51:20Z _death: well, (= (ash 1 32) (ash 2 31)) 2021-02-10T20:52:00Z mfiano: still off by 1 error from 1- with expt though 2021-02-10T20:53:42Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T20:54:58Z mfiano: _death: trying to make sense about what you said above 2021-02-10T20:55:23Z mfiano: you lost me after this https://gist.github.com/mfiano/992b39e73fd4f59eed098198f07a4682 2021-02-10T20:55:34Z mfiano: (unoptimized so far) 2021-02-10T20:56:05Z _death: no, it's not that simple 2021-02-10T20:56:29Z mfiano: yeah it's unfinished because i am not quite understanding what you said 2021-02-10T20:56:38Z _death: lemme actually evaluate your forms ;) 2021-02-10T20:57:08Z mfiano: if you want mt to publish this, you'll have to give me a moment 2021-02-10T20:57:15Z mfiano: it's not even in a repo yet 2021-02-10T20:57:20Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T20:57:58Z _death: first, I'm changing your rng stuff to use random (and add &optional (*random-state* (make-random-state)) to the defun) 2021-02-10T20:58:03Z mfiano: do you mind if I PM you? 2021-02-10T20:58:04Z _death: that way I can reproduce 2021-02-10T20:58:25Z _death: go ahead 2021-02-10T21:00:21Z Christ0pher is now known as anunnaki 2021-02-10T21:01:37Z _death: what is it that you want to return from a new permute1? 2021-02-10T21:02:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T21:02:42Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T21:04:34Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T21:04:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:05:51Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:06:17Z jonatack_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-10T21:06:38Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T21:06:47Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:06:55Z jonatack_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-10T21:07:34Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp 2021-02-10T21:08:07Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:08:22Z jonatack_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-10T21:09:44Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T21:10:26Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:16:44Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:20:10Z hjudt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T21:21:38Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T21:22:32Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-10T21:23:49Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:26:21Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T21:28:43Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:28:45Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T21:28:53Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T21:29:20Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:30:16Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T21:30:31Z Wezl quit (Quit: resolved) 2021-02-10T21:31:45Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-10T21:32:50Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:37:42Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T21:40:04Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:40:22Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:41:28Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T21:43:26Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:44:11Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:44:15Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T21:44:35Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:44:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:46:46Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T21:48:43Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T21:51:33Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-10T21:53:48Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-10T21:54:02Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:04:51Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:05:45Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:06:45Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:08:58Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:13:46Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-10T22:25:14Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:27:55Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:28:29Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:29:02Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:29:36Z nij: Is there any package that returns system state (cpu, bat, network, thermal info.. etc)? 2021-02-10T22:31:40Z dddddd_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:32:59Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:33:42Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:35:14Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:35:23Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:35:35Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:37:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T22:38:02Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:38:04Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-10T22:39:53Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:41:26Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:42:07Z Josh_2: Not sure but on linux you can normally just read that info from the correct file 2021-02-10T22:46:45Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:49:57Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:50:47Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga) 2021-02-10T22:51:08Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:51:28Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:53:57Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:54:05Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:54:22Z remexre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-10T22:54:39Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:56:16Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:58:10Z remexre joined #lisp 2021-02-10T22:58:11Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:58:25Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-10T22:59:22Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T23:00:32Z fitzsim: I'm trying to use /usr/bin/cl on Debian 2021-02-10T23:01:22Z fitzsim: if I run a minimal script as a normal user, I get: 2021-02-10T23:01:24Z fitzsim: line 2280, column 7 of #P"/usr/bin/cl": 2021-02-10T23:01:35Z fitzsim: [...] Error opening #P"/usr/share/common-lisp/source/cl-asdf/build/asdf-tmpGHU3ALSV.fasl" 2021-02-10T23:02:04Z fitzsim: this is using SBCL as the underlying Lisp 2021-02-10T23:03:02Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T23:03:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T23:04:00Z fitzsim: shouldn't the cl-asdf build default to putting output somewhere user-controlled, like /run/user/${UID} ? 2021-02-10T23:04:33Z fitzsim: if I run the same script as root, it's fine, presumably because root can write under /usr/share 2021-02-10T23:05:12Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T23:06:44Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-10T23:07:32Z fitzsim: ah, I just figured it out: ~/.config/common-lisp/asdf-output-translations.conf.d/99-disable-cache.conf 2021-02-10T23:07:47Z fitzsim: that had :disable-cache 2021-02-10T23:08:14Z fitzsim: if I comment that out, the script works as the unprivileged user 2021-02-10T23:10:52Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T23:18:22Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-10T23:20:21Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T23:22:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-10T23:25:40Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-10T23:25:59Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-10T23:27:19Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-10T23:27:22Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-10T23:30:02Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T23:37:21Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-10T23:43:03Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-10T23:44:03Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-10T23:46:16Z mfiano: anybody use the additional keywords in uiop:define-package before? i am having a hard time trying to figure out the right combination to get what i want 2021-02-10T23:48:22Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-10T23:50:11Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-10T23:50:21Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-10T23:51:35Z mfiano: Ah I needed (:mix #:a #:b #:cl) (:reexport #:a #:b). I wanted to bring in A and B which shadow some CL symbols, but not RE-EXPORT all CL symbols, so :MIX-REEXPORT was out of the question. 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It's semi-arbitrary the way lisp file operations correspond to unix. 2021-02-11T01:16:23Z Nilby: I think thankfully most implementations have chosen a consistent way. 2021-02-11T01:16:25Z pillton: White_Flame: "The default is :error if direction is :input or if-exists is :overwrite or :append;" 2021-02-11T01:17:03Z White_Flame: pillton: ah, so it is. missed that 2021-02-11T01:18:46Z White_Flame: thanks 2021-02-11T01:19:59Z pillton: np 2021-02-11T01:26:48Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T01:28:55Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-11T01:30:36Z judson_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T01:30:49Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T01:31:25Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-11T01:32:12Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T01:33:32Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-11T01:34:06Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T01:39:00Z Nilby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T01:39:03Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T01:39:14Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-11T01:43:03Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T01:43:11Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-11T01:44:07Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T01:44:57Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T01:48:02Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T01:52:45Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-11T01:53:56Z enzuru joined #lisp 2021-02-11T01:59:36Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T02:04:52Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T02:07:15Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-11T02:07:51Z charles`: Hi everyone 2021-02-11T02:08:56Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T02:11:19Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-11T02:18:26Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T02:19:59Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-11T02:22:49Z charles`: Are there compiler hooks other than *macroexpand-hook*? 2021-02-11T02:22:56Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-11T02:23:15Z Bike: there are various ways to get the compiler to run things. what do you have in mind? 2021-02-11T02:23:26Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T02:24:48Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T02:25:29Z charles`: I'm not completely sure, I'm just exploring. Maybe something like *macroexpand-hook* but for every form 2021-02-11T02:26:07Z Bike: that doesn't exist, no. 2021-02-11T02:28:11Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T02:28:34Z abhixec quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T02:29:05Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T02:29:26Z charles`: Is it reasonable to assume that IF is implemented using COND? 2021-02-11T02:29:30Z Bike: no. 2021-02-11T02:29:35Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-11T02:29:37Z Bike: usually it's the other way around, even. 2021-02-11T02:31:42Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T02:32:46Z charles`: oh, I see. Is there any conditional that doesn't come down to IF? 2021-02-11T02:33:06Z Bike: depends on the implementation 2021-02-11T02:35:04Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T02:37:12Z charles`: Do you have an example? I can't think of what the reasoning be would be 2021-02-11T02:38:56Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-11T02:39:52Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T02:41:07Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T02:41:45Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T02:43:03Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T02:44:41Z Bike: sometimes CASE might be so the implementation can do a jump table or whatever other optimized multiway branch 2021-02-11T02:45:15Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-11T02:48:02Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T02:48:55Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-11T02:49:24Z charles`: genius 2021-02-11T02:54:43Z Bike: of course whether things are defined in terms of IF shouldn't really matter to the programmer very much if ever 2021-02-11T02:55:52Z charles`: in sbcl at least case->cond->if. Matters not to the programmer, but it could matter to the compiler hacker 2021-02-11T03:00:19Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T03:05:32Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T03:05:50Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-11T03:06:14Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-02-11T03:06:33Z mister_m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T03:07:41Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-11T03:10:39Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-11T03:11:30Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T03:13:25Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T03:16:48Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T03:17:06Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-11T03:18:28Z Sheilong quit 2021-02-11T03:20:05Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T03:20:47Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-11T03:21:52Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T03:22:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-11T03:22:40Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-02-11T03:34:10Z Alloc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T03:34:55Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T03:40:14Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T03:44:17Z tsrt^ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T03:51:15Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T03:56:17Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T04:02:29Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T04:03:30Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-11T04:05:02Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T04:08:16Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T04:10:00Z charles`: Hi beach 2021-02-11T04:13:12Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T04:15:25Z charles`: What are you up to? 2021-02-11T04:16:19Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T04:16:45Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-11T04:17:15Z beach: Me? Working on SICL and the paper to submit to ELS. 2021-02-11T04:17:19Z beach: What about you? 2021-02-11T04:19:40Z charles`: I'm exploring derived types in hopes of enjoying compile type invariant checking even beyond rust or kotlin. What is ELS? 2021-02-11T04:19:57Z beach: European Lisp Symposium. 2021-02-11T04:20:37Z beach: The only Lisp conference in the world that is not dead. 2021-02-11T04:21:38Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-11T04:22:29Z charles`: I'll have to join in this year 2021-02-11T04:22:51Z beach: Good idea. 2021-02-11T04:23:14Z beach: Next year, let's hope we can meet for real again. 2021-02-11T04:23:50Z charles`: except I live on the other side of the pond 2021-02-11T04:24:37Z beach: You are still welcome to attend. We have regular participants from the US, Japan, etc. 2021-02-11T04:25:36Z charles`: That would be quite the adventure 2021-02-11T04:25:38Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T04:27:53Z charles`: types for functions can be defined with (declaim (ftype, but it isn't required by conforming implementations right? 2021-02-11T04:28:26Z zxq2 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T04:28:54Z beach: A conforming implementation must accept such a proclamation. 2021-02-11T04:30:23Z zxq2: what's the most widely used dialect of lisp in the industry? 2021-02-11T04:30:25Z charles`: but it isn't required to have them for each function in common-lisp package 2021-02-11T04:30:37Z charles`: wait, lisp is used in industry? 2021-02-11T04:30:38Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T04:31:05Z beach: zxq2: There is no consensus about the definition of "Lisp", so that's hard to answer. 2021-02-11T04:31:29Z beach: zxq2: If you consider Clojure to be a Lisp dialect, then that's probably the one that is most widely used. 2021-02-11T04:31:31Z zxq2: hmm.. okay 2021-02-11T04:31:41Z beach: zxq2: But it's also off topic. This channel is about Common Lisp. 2021-02-11T04:32:09Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-02-11T04:32:26Z zxq2: what do you use common lisp for? 2021-02-11T04:33:06Z beach: Me? Implementing Common Lisp. 2021-02-11T04:33:14Z charles`: mainly web development 2021-02-11T04:33:18Z charles`: and fun 2021-02-11T04:34:19Z zxq2: do you think in order to become an effective lisp programmer, you need more of a grasp of theoretical CS, than say the other, imperative languages? 2021-02-11T04:34:43Z beach: No. 2021-02-11T04:34:49Z beach: zxq2: Common Lisp is an imperative language as well. 2021-02-11T04:35:13Z beach: Multi-paradigm to be precise. 2021-02-11T04:35:13Z zxq2: is it not primarily functional? 2021-02-11T04:35:17Z beach: No. 2021-02-11T04:36:01Z beach: In fact, the evaluation model of Common Lisp is simpler than that of C, and WAY simpler than that of C++. 2021-02-11T04:36:17Z zxq2: yeah C++ is a mess 2021-02-11T04:37:22Z charles`: I personally try to write my common lisp in functional style 2021-02-11T04:38:15Z beach: Common Lisp uses what I call "uniform reference semantics", which is the only sane way of programming. It means that the objects you manipulate behave as if they are actually references to a chunk of memory. C is much more complicated in that you sometime use pointers, sometimes copy the objects, etc. 2021-02-11T04:39:31Z beach: A programming language without automatic memory management can't really use that sane semantic model, so such a language is necessarily more complicated. 2021-02-11T04:39:53Z zxq2: to modify my above, it seems like someone with knowledge of lisp has more insight into PL theory. do you agree? 2021-02-11T04:40:00Z zxq2: *my above question 2021-02-11T04:40:25Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-11T04:41:14Z beach: People who program in Common Lisp seem to be more knowledgeable than people who don't program in Common Lisp. But that doesn't mean that it is a requirement in order to program in Common Lisp. 2021-02-11T04:41:43Z beach: I think it has to do with the kind of people who are likely to pick up a language that is not mainstream. 2021-02-11T04:43:31Z beach: It takes some courage to invest time in a language that is not as popular as the mainstream languages. Programmers of mainstream languages in their surroundings may even ridicule them for doing so. 2021-02-11T04:43:47Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T04:44:44Z zxq2: i'm trying to understand the practical benefits and motivations for learning lisp or its dervitaves. it seems like with knowledge of these languages comes a deeper insight into programming langs in general. 2021-02-11T04:45:00Z beach: That might very well be true. 2021-02-11T04:45:35Z beach: But Common Lisp is also a great programming tool, so you don't have to look much further than that. 2021-02-11T04:46:16Z beach: Common Lisp has several excellent implementations, many of which generate code that is comparable in speed to that of C. 2021-02-11T04:46:50Z beach now fully expects "But isn't Common Lisp an interpreted programming language?" And no, there is no such thing. 2021-02-11T04:47:30Z zxq2: have you studied lambda calculus? 2021-02-11T04:47:45Z beach: Me? Yes. 2021-02-11T04:48:31Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-11T04:48:47Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T04:48:52Z zxq2: amazing that all of computation can come from such a simple formalism 2021-02-11T04:50:08Z beach: Apparently, Conway's game of life is Turing complete. 2021-02-11T04:51:00Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-11T04:51:03Z zxq2: wasn't McCarthy influenced by the l. calc when developing lisp? 2021-02-11T04:51:15Z charles`: How would I declaim an ftype with &rest &option or &key 2021-02-11T04:51:21Z beach: zxq2: Sounds right. 2021-02-11T04:51:36Z zxq2: thanks for answering my questions! 2021-02-11T04:51:39Z beach: clhs ftype 2021-02-11T04:51:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ftype.htm 2021-02-11T04:52:13Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T04:53:19Z beach: Oh, it's under the FUNCTION system class. 2021-02-11T04:53:34Z zxq2: and there is a difference betwen interpreted and compiled langs, no? your belief is that the former do compilation at run-time? 2021-02-11T04:54:10Z beach: There is no such thing as an interpreted or compiled programming language. 2021-02-11T04:54:16Z beach: It is a quality of the implementation. 2021-02-11T04:54:33Z beach: Any language can be implemented with either technique, more or less well, of course. 2021-02-11T04:54:38Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-02-11T04:55:25Z beach: Most modern Common Lisp implementations compile on the fly. Non JIT, but the REPL compiles the form and then executes it. 2021-02-11T04:58:06Z beach: zxq2: The "danger" of using "interpreted programming language" is that people then assume that every implementation of that language is slow. And they would be right if it were the case that the language had to be implemented using an interpreter. But no language requires that. 2021-02-11T04:59:09Z beach: zxq2: And people without sufficient knowledge of programming-language implementation techniques might assume that an interactive language like Common Lisp is necessarily interpreted, so they incorrectly assume that such a language is slow. 2021-02-11T05:00:11Z beach: charles`: Did you check the page on the FUNCTION system class? The answer is there. 2021-02-11T05:01:29Z charles`: Yes thank you beach, this is certainly the page I was looking for. 2021-02-11T05:01:55Z charles`: seem correct? (declaim (ftype (function (number) &rest number) +)) 2021-02-11T05:01:58Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T05:02:22Z charles`: nvm I think I reversed them (declaim (ftype (function (&rest number) number) +)) 2021-02-11T05:03:07Z moon-child: beach: 'compiled vs interpreted is a false dichotomy' is a misnomer. https://fexpr.blogspot.com/2016/08/interpreted-programming-languages.html 2021-02-11T05:07:14Z beach: moon-child: Hence my "more or less well, of course". 2021-02-11T05:07:14Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T05:10:47Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-11T05:12:27Z moon-child: beach: insofar as a compiler is just a mapping between two sets of formal semantics, sure. But that doesn't mean that you performed a meaningful transformation 2021-02-11T05:13:21Z contrapunctus: So I had SLIME autodoc working fine when I was working locally, but for some reason I don't see it anymore when I'm working with a remote Lisp...any ideas? 🤔 2021-02-11T05:17:00Z contrapunctus: I followed the SLIME manual to set it up - https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Connecting-to-a-remote-lisp.html 2021-02-11T05:17:35Z cchristiansen left #lisp 2021-02-11T05:18:06Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T05:23:12Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T05:26:18Z recalloc: Is there any promise that the maximum length of an array can be expressed as a fixnum? 2021-02-11T05:26:24Z charles`: Is it safe to assume that the declared type of a function in common lisp package will be the same across implementations? 2021-02-11T05:27:59Z beach: moon-child: I see what you mean. 2021-02-11T05:28:38Z beach: recalloc: Yes. 2021-02-11T05:30:49Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp 2021-02-11T05:32:06Z charles`: charles`: that would be a no 2021-02-11T05:32:55Z Bike: clhs array-total-size-limit 2021-02-11T05:32:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_tot.htm 2021-02-11T05:32:57Z beach: charles`: Functions are not required to have a proclaimed type, so no. 2021-02-11T05:32:57Z Bike: recalloc: 2021-02-11T05:34:36Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T05:35:14Z Bike quit (Quit: sleeping) 2021-02-11T05:37:21Z charles`: I suppose really what I mean was: for every function (in cl package) could there exist a type declaration that would work across implementation 2021-02-11T05:38:29Z recalloc: Awesome, thanks! 2021-02-11T05:38:57Z beach: charles`: That's not necessarily true I think. Implementations are sometimes allowed to add stuff like keyword arguments. 2021-02-11T05:39:38Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T05:40:22Z charles`: &allow-other-keys? 2021-02-11T05:40:25Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T05:41:35Z beach: That might work. I am not so good with type declarations. 2021-02-11T05:42:24Z charles`: part of my goal is to allow people to get the benefits of type declarations without having to write them 2021-02-11T05:42:57Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-11T05:43:10Z charles`: Thanks for the heads up about allowing other keys. Now to comb through the spec and write type declarations for every function... 2021-02-11T05:43:15Z beach: Sure, that would be a good library. 2021-02-11T05:43:59Z charles`: a big hurdle in the future will be function hoisting in compile file 2021-02-11T05:45:12Z beach: I don't understand what that means. 2021-02-11T05:47:20Z charles`: if you do COMPILE-FILE the order of the functions doesn't matter. It won't warn you about undefined functions as long as they are defined in that file. 2021-02-11T05:49:06Z beach: So what's the hurdle? 2021-02-11T05:51:53Z charles`: If I'm working on the level of DEFUN those other functions aren't defined yet, thus how can I possibly know their types. I could find their definitions in the file being compiled, but that is as far as I want to think about it right now 2021-02-11T05:53:05Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T05:53:31Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T05:54:31Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-11T05:58:02Z recalloc: Hmm, that's weird. Quicklisp can't find my local package, and if I eval the .asd manually, SBCL cries that it can't find the compiled .fasl. 2021-02-11T05:58:32Z beach: Did you try (ql:register-local-projects)? 2021-02-11T05:58:48Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T05:58:49Z charles`: You're package is in quicklisp/local-projects/ right? 2021-02-11T05:58:52Z recalloc: Huh, that works. Thanks 2021-02-11T05:58:58Z recalloc: Yeah it's in local-projects. 2021-02-11T05:59:09Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-11T05:59:22Z texno joined #lisp 2021-02-11T06:00:30Z charles`: strangely enough, I have never needed to use register-local-projects 2021-02-11T06:00:56Z beach: Apparently it is not needed unless you have symbolic links. 2021-02-11T06:01:03Z beach: ... which is what I have. 2021-02-11T06:02:30Z recalloc: I never needed to use it, either.. until now. I don't have symlinks in my sources. 2021-02-11T06:05:27Z recalloc: I remember there being a function which allowed me to copy one vector *into* another vector. Completely lost the name of it, though 2021-02-11T06:06:11Z charles`: I use symlinks too 2021-02-11T06:06:46Z beach: clhs map-into 2021-02-11T06:06:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map_in.htm 2021-02-11T06:08:04Z recalloc: map-into, thanks 2021-02-11T06:08:54Z recalloc: I thought there were a less roundabout way than (map-into dest #'identity src), but I guess that's it 2021-02-11T06:09:18Z beach: clhs replace 2021-02-11T06:09:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_replac.htm 2021-02-11T06:10:16Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T06:10:56Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-11T06:12:39Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T06:12:57Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T06:13:27Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-11T06:13:48Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-11T06:13:54Z recalloc: Replace is exactly what I needed, thanks! 2021-02-11T06:14:02Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T06:15:38Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T06:18:58Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T06:19:52Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-02-11T06:23:08Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-11T06:26:58Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T06:27:36Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T06:30:44Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T06:32:02Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T06:36:16Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T06:36:42Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T06:38:01Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T06:38:37Z recalloc: Hm. I'm concluding it's relatively hard to port from branchless C to CL and expect a similar class of performance. 2021-02-11T06:41:31Z recalloc: I'll concede to trivial-utf-8 for now and rename my package to damn-slow-utf-8 2021-02-11T06:41:35Z recalloc: :) 2021-02-11T06:42:53Z recalloc: https://0x0.st/-H0C.png 2021-02-11T06:43:46Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T06:47:03Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-02-11T06:49:50Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T07:00:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T07:00:09Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:00:27Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:00:28Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:01:06Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:06:27Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T07:16:36Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T07:19:04Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:23:21Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-11T07:24:02Z ghard quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T07:25:58Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:29:34Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:34:53Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:37:34Z ghard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:38:19Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-11T07:40:55Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:41:02Z lukego: Hey is there an easy way to get Emacs/SLIME to keyword-fontify serapaem defining macros like `defconst' ? 2021-02-11T07:42:47Z lukego: (Or rather, is there a canonical way that other people do it, or should I just hack Emacs font-lock-keywords?) 2021-02-11T07:48:19Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:51:07Z ralt joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:56:49Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T07:57:02Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-11T07:57:02Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-02-11T07:57:02Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-11T08:04:10Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-11T08:10:08Z theothornhill: You could extend cl-font-lock-built-in-mode? 2021-02-11T08:23:23Z splittist: I would like to use a Docker container to build an executable from a lisp project. There are many fine lisp images, but what's the best way to give the container access to the local projects (i.e. the components not in quicklisp) that are needed to create that executable? 2021-02-11T08:25:50Z Oddity- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T08:26:24Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T08:26:37Z Oddity- joined #lisp 2021-02-11T08:28:39Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-11T08:29:01Z lukego: splittist: Maybe docker's `-v` to bind-mount ~/quicklisp/local-projects from your master repos on the host? https://docs.docker.com/storage/bind-mounts/ 2021-02-11T08:30:02Z sbryant quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T08:30:04Z splittist: Thtat 2021-02-11T08:30:37Z splittist: (new keyboard). lukego: that seemed the obvious way, so I assumed it was wrong (: 2021-02-11T08:31:21Z lukego: new keyboard! I remember seeing your old one, it looked like the best one available on the market ;-) 2021-02-11T08:31:55Z sbryant joined #lisp 2021-02-11T08:32:36Z lukego: Maybe `-v` isn't ideal really since that's more of a runtime rather than build-time thing. If you want `docker build` to do the whole job then maybe that doesn't work. I guess you could have your Dockerfile COPY stuff into the same location instead? 2021-02-11T08:33:13Z lukego: disclaimer: I've used Docker for various things but usually just cutting through the shortest path without necessarily knowing what is correct.. 2021-02-11T08:36:44Z splittist: I sort of have this feeling I should be copying the local projects and letting quicklisp pull things into the container. Particularly since I have a locally-patched version of some things to make them work on my Windows dev machine and the container will be linux, of course. 2021-02-11T08:38:25Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-11T08:39:18Z lukego: That makes sense to me but take that with a grain of salt :) 2021-02-11T08:40:30Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T08:42:15Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-11T08:45:43Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-11T11:03:03Z mezzano-user joined #lisp 2021-02-11T11:04:42Z zmyrgel joined #lisp 2021-02-11T11:04:44Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-11T11:05:30Z zmyrgel quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-11T11:09:07Z mezzano-user quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T11:16:09Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-11T11:17:51Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T11:22:42Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-11T11:30:50Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T11:40:14Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-02-11T11:44:34Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-11T11:47:05Z holycow joined #lisp 2021-02-11T11:47:06Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T11:47:22Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-11T11:50:20Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-11T11:50:26Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T11:52:12Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-11T11:57:42Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-11T11:59:26Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-11T12:03:23Z voidlily joined #lisp 2021-02-11T12:11:48Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-11T12:24:30Z Xach: splittist: i would be inclined to pin the quicklisp version for that kind of use 2021-02-11T12:26:19Z gabiruh quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-11T12:26:38Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2021-02-11T12:28:59Z holycow quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-11T12:33:48Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-11T12:39:00Z jmercouris: CLPM 2021-02-11T12:45:19Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T12:46:51Z splittist: Xach: that seems like a good idea. 2021-02-11T12:47:12Z Xach: unless your goal is to test ongoing compatibility, that is 2021-02-11T12:48:02Z splittist: I think I'd call that 'homework mode' 2021-02-11T12:50:29Z splittist: My problem is that the executable is to use in a non-lisp project (), and I was hoping to use a multi-stage dockerfile to build the executable then COPY -from=lisp-building-container-thingy etc. But dockerfiles can't pick up context outside their root. 2021-02-11T12:52:41Z splittist: (I'm mangling the terminology, sorry.) So either I (a) copy the relevant local-projects into the non-lisp project; (b) develop them under this non-lisp project (but some of the lisp projects are general libraries, not limited to this use case); or (c) create my own quicklisp distribution ??? 2021-02-11T12:52:54Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-11T12:53:26Z Xach: you don't need a distribution if you just want to get some code. it could be a tarball that you fetch and unpack. 2021-02-11T12:55:18Z splittist: OK. (It's just annoying that the files are sitting there in a sibling directory and I have to do something outside the dockerfile to get at them. I understand the reasons, but... I think I'm thinking about this the wrong way.) 2021-02-11T12:55:32Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-02-11T12:57:18Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-11T12:57:31Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T12:57:44Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-11T12:58:35Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-11T13:03:20Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-11T13:04:26Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-11T13:09:12Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T13:10:40Z Xach: every time you fetch quicklisp stuff in a CI pipeline it costs me a picodollar 2021-02-11T13:11:35Z jackdaniel: (loop (vroom :clean t)) 2021-02-11T13:13:29Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T13:13:34Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-11T13:18:21Z flip214: Xach: during the next real-world ELS I can offer you a nanoeuro 2021-02-11T13:19:47Z jackdaniel: or a nanocrown in some countries, and the crown is trendy lately 2021-02-11T13:30:16Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T13:38:00Z albusp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T13:38:48Z albusp joined #lisp 2021-02-11T13:43:31Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-11T13:45:25Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-11T13:47:57Z Xach: μbles? 2021-02-11T13:48:03Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-11T13:50:35Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-11T13:54:41Z shka_: Xach: good one 2021-02-11T13:58:50Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:00:37Z OlCe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T14:03:18Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:04:45Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T14:12:33Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T14:13:11Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:13:57Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:14:01Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:15:10Z phantomics_ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:16:42Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-11T14:18:12Z phantomics__ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:19:53Z phantomics_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T14:28:46Z flazh quit (Quit: flazh) 2021-02-11T14:28:57Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:30:07Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:37:08Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T14:37:30Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:38:03Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:40:41Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:43:09Z valerianka joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:43:44Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T14:43:56Z valerianka quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-11T14:46:33Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-02-11T15:02:10Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-11T15:03:38Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T15:05:02Z edgar-rft: with a nonocrown you're nanoking! welcome to your nanokingdom 2021-02-11T15:13:22Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-11T15:16:45Z tsrt^ quit 2021-02-11T15:17:12Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-11T15:20:40Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-11T15:21:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T15:22:41Z dbotton: Working now on "thick" bindings with clog now - Working api for desktop environment in and now adding dialogs etc :) 2021-02-11T15:23:46Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T15:25:36Z mfiano: Congratulations on all the positive feedback on CLOG and your hard work learning CL 2021-02-11T15:42:55Z splittist: So my solution is to create the lisp-builder with executable image separately. Only my dump-exe.lisp script, which runs fine from outside the container, and fine from inside the container, does not run from a RUN command in the Dockerfile. 2021-02-11T15:44:02Z sauvin_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T15:44:13Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-11T15:44:55Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-11T15:45:19Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T15:45:33Z alandipert quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-11T15:45:55Z alandipert joined #lisp 2021-02-11T15:50:51Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-02-11T15:52:36Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T15:59:18Z dbotton: mfiano thanks! 2021-02-11T16:00:01Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:00:09Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3-dev) 2021-02-11T16:00:39Z ldbeth: good midnight 2021-02-11T16:00:50Z ldbeth lol 2021-02-11T16:07:14Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-11T16:09:46Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:15:41Z flip214: Is there an equivalent of CHECK-TYPE that evaluates the type? So that I can pass in expected array sizes? 2021-02-11T16:16:30Z jackdaniel: flip214: (assert (typep)) ? 2021-02-11T16:16:31Z flip214: Like (check-type input `(array fixnum (,size ,size))) 2021-02-11T16:16:45Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-11T16:16:45Z jackdaniel: you can't do it at runtime, that's the point of check-type 2021-02-11T16:17:06Z jmercouris: you can do type-of 2021-02-11T16:17:23Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: and what of it? 2021-02-11T16:17:27Z jmercouris: you could do it 2021-02-11T16:17:36Z flip214: jackdaniel: well, I want to tell the compiler that the used indizes _must_ be in the array, so no bounds checks are necessary in a loop 2021-02-11T16:17:39Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:17:40Z jmercouris: type-of object => typespec 2021-02-11T16:17:46Z jmercouris: compare if it matches your expectations... at run time 2021-02-11T16:18:04Z jackdaniel: flip214: ah 2021-02-11T16:18:23Z jmercouris: also you are a tomato 2021-02-11T16:18:29Z jmercouris: sorry, wrong channel 2021-02-11T16:20:21Z jackdaniel: flip214: all I can think of is typecase with known sizes put in there and a generic otherwise clause 2021-02-11T16:21:49Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:22:07Z scymtym: flip214: do you want the code to still be safe? if not, (locally (declare (optimize (sb-c::insert-array-bounds-checks 0))) …) would be one (non-portable) option 2021-02-11T16:22:39Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:23:04Z jackdaniel: (declare (safety -1)) 2021-02-11T16:24:00Z jmercouris: no idea what is going on here: http://dpaste.com/DUJWF7SF9 2021-02-11T16:24:09Z jmercouris: I don't understand this error message 2021-02-11T16:24:12Z flip214: scymtym: I'd like to still be safe... OTOH, if I check the input types beforehand, the arithmetic can't go wrong - so SAFETY 0 might be acceptable 2021-02-11T16:24:43Z jmercouris: (INTERN (SYMBOL-NAME INTERFACE) (PACKAGE-NAME (SYMBOL-PACKAGE INTERFACE))) is not a string designator. 2021-02-11T16:24:47Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: the first argument to define-user-class is not evaluated 2021-02-11T16:24:50Z jmercouris: do I have to evaluate it or something 2021-02-11T16:24:55Z jmercouris: ah damnit I was just about to say something like that 2021-02-11T16:24:59Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:25:03Z jmercouris: OK, so how should I rewrite this? 2021-02-11T16:25:08Z flip214: well, I've got an (ASSERT (TYPEP input `(array fixnum (,size ,size)))) and (DOTIMES (i (1- size)) (DOTIMES (j (1- size)) ...)) 2021-02-11T16:25:27Z flip214: and still get HAIRY-DATA-VECTOR-REF 2021-02-11T16:25:34Z jackdaniel: (eval `(define-user-class ,(intern …)) 2021-02-11T16:25:49Z jmercouris: or otherwise make a macro myself? 2021-02-11T16:26:06Z jmercouris: I guess I can eval it for now 2021-02-11T16:26:47Z jmercouris: thanks jackdaniel 2021-02-11T16:27:03Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-11T16:27:23Z scymtym: flip214: or compile specialized versions dynamically if jackdaniel's suggestion is impractical: (lambda (a) (let ((table (load-time-value (make-hash-table :test #'equal))) (dims (array-dimensions a))) (funcall (alexandria:ensure-gethash dims table (compile nil `(lambda (a) (declare (type (array t ,dims) a)) a))) a))) (not thread-safe) 2021-02-11T16:27:30Z jackdaniel: sure 2021-02-11T16:28:17Z flip214: scymtym: uh, ouch 2021-02-11T16:28:50Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:28:59Z scymtym: i for one am glad that we /can/ do something like that if needed 2021-02-11T16:30:42Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-11T16:31:42Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:32:02Z contrapunctus: Anyone know why SLIME autodoc might work correctly for a local image, but stop working over SSH? 2021-02-11T16:32:16Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:32:38Z prxq: contrapunctus: paths 2021-02-11T16:32:40Z jackdaniel: maybe it tries to find locally the file? 2021-02-11T16:33:30Z prxq: contrapunctus: what exactly do you mean 'over SSH'? You log in via SSH remotely? Or are u using swank? 2021-02-11T16:33:52Z flip214: scymtym: well, I'd like to tell the compiler that the array is a specific size; and DOTIMES won't go over the limit (that should be known already) 2021-02-11T16:34:46Z scymtym: flip214: i can comment on that later 2021-02-11T16:35:13Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:36:05Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T16:37:45Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T16:39:48Z contrapunctus: prxq, jackdaniel: oh, I was following the steps here - https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Connecting-to-a-remote-lisp.html but now that I think about it, I can't remember if I did the path translation thing. I'll take a look at that. 2021-02-11T16:42:24Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:44:46Z flip214: even (DOTIMES (i (array-dimension input 0)) ...) doesn't help.... what am I doing wrong? 2021-02-11T16:45:08Z jackdaniel: you are assuming the sufficiently smart compiler 2021-02-11T16:45:11Z jackdaniel: compilers are dumb :) 2021-02-11T16:47:05Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T16:49:44Z flip214: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/146f51f1/ 2021-02-11T16:50:03Z flip214: jackdaniel: I got some similar stuff working with sbcl already 2021-02-11T16:50:13Z flip214: just right now I'm too dumb, I believe 2021-02-11T16:50:42Z Bike: yeah i'm not sure if sbcl can actually track that kind of dependent type 2021-02-11T16:51:27Z Bike: also, you have it as an array rather than a simple-array 2021-02-11T16:51:34Z Bike: that might screw up doing any optimization whatsoever 2021-02-11T16:52:35Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:53:22Z Nilby: yes, my experience is that you ususally need a simple-array to get the fast path 2021-02-11T16:53:24Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-11T16:56:53Z Nilby: although I guess, like the case in the paste, sometimes it's obvious it's not displaces, fill-pointered, or adjusted 2021-02-11T16:57:20Z Bike: i don't see anything in the paste that would force M to be a simple array 2021-02-11T16:57:28Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T17:02:00Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:06:05Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:06:06Z supercoven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-02-11T17:06:20Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:06:21Z supercoven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-02-11T17:06:35Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:06:36Z supercoven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-02-11T17:06:50Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:07:55Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:09:33Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T17:11:26Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T17:11:42Z Nilby fell down an asm diffing rabbit hole 2021-02-11T17:12:09Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T17:12:28Z contrapunctus: prxq, jackdaniel: thanks, it was indeed missing path translation config! ^^ 2021-02-11T17:14:51Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:14:54Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:17:02Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:20:42Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T17:21:17Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-11T17:21:39Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:22:24Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-11T17:23:14Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:23:26Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:28:06Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-11T17:29:27Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:30:40Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:30:54Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T17:34:52Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T17:35:29Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:38:39Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:40:32Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T17:40:33Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-11T17:44:42Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-11T17:44:44Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-11T17:45:28Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T17:48:53Z rogersm_ quit 2021-02-11T17:52:10Z scymtym: flip214: as bike said, to generate optimized array accesses, SBCL must infer the simpleness of the array, the array element type (even if t) and the array dimensions. i'm certain that it can't do that based on a dynamically constructed TYPEP assertion. however, if you write something like (dotimes (i (array-dimension a 0)) …), SBCL can infer a constraint between I and A so that accesses in the body will not require a bounds 2021-02-11T17:52:10Z scymtym: check 2021-02-11T17:54:49Z scymtym: here is a small example that shows the constraint: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/sbcl-infer-array-in-bounds.png 2021-02-11T17:55:55Z scymtym: not sure how this 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2021-02-11T18:34:46Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-11T18:35:48Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-11T18:39:18Z aartaka_d quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T18:39:34Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-11T18:40:25Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T18:40:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T18:40:50Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T18:40:52Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T18:41:14Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-11T18:42:06Z flip214: scymtym: Bike: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/0601d838/ has simple-array in the assert, and uses array-dimension - still, there's a HAIR in the soup... 2021-02-11T18:42:33Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T18:42:50Z dbotton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T18:42:52Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T18:43:17Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-11T18:43:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T18:43:44Z flip214: ah, with (DECLARE (TYPE (SIMPLE-ARRAY... ))) it looks better 2021-02-11T18:43:52Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-11T18:44:09Z scymtym: flip214: 1) what is MATRIX? 2) as i said, i don't think the (assert (typep …)) with a dynamically constructed type specifier allows inferring anything 2021-02-11T18:44:22Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-11T18:45:39Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T18:46:25Z scymtym: also, speed 3 with safety 0 will elide the bounds irregardless of type inference and constraints 2021-02-11T18:46:35Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T18:47:44Z scymtym: (compile nil (lambda () …)) (as opposed to (compile nil '(lambda () …))) does not usually compile 2021-02-11T18:51:25Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T18:52:36Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-11T18:52:39Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T18:54:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T18:55:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:01:37Z 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https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-monad-macros/monad-macros.htm ? 2021-02-11T19:19:11Z _death: https://8c6794b6.github.io/posts/Delimited-continuations-with-monadic-functions-in-Common-Lisp.html 2021-02-11T19:21:09Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T19:22:16Z nij: Oh great! I missed this while searching :-) 2021-02-11T19:22:34Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:22:50Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-11T19:24:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T19:25:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:25:47Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:28:33Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-11T19:28:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T19:28:57Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:29:01Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:29:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T19:29:48Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:31:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T19:32:36Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:34:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T19:35:23Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:35:26Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T19:37:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T19:38:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:38:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T19:39:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:43:17Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-11T19:46:02Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-11T19:46:22Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:46:28Z nij quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-11T19:47:23Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:49:08Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:53:33Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-11T19:54:13Z CrazyPython quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T19:54:14Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-11T19:54:38Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-02-11T19:55:03Z nij quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-11T19:58:09Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-11T20:14:48Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-11T20:18:36Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T20:20:49Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-11T20:21:25Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-11T20:22:47Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-11T20:23:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-11T20:27:14Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-11T20:27:22Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-11T20:27:41Z nij: Can I get a graph of a tree that indicates all types? 2021-02-11T20:27:50Z nij: (and there sub/sup relations) 2021-02-11T20:27:54Z nij: s/there/their/ 2021-02-11T20:31:36Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-11T20:36:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-11T20:37:15Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-11T20:38:21Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T20:41:24Z Oddity- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T20:47:07Z flip214: hmmm... I can make the HAIRY vanish via a (DECLARE (TYPE `(SIMPLE-ARRAY SYMBOL (* *)) variable)). 2021-02-11T20:47:51Z flip214: But if I use the DEFTYPE instead of `(SIMPLE-ARRAY SYMBOL (* *)) (which says the same) they come back 2021-02-11T20:48:07Z flip214: ah, no ` 2021-02-11T20:48:15Z flip214: grrr, too late for clear thinking 2021-02-11T20:54:39Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T20:54:45Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T20:55:42Z supercoven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T21:02:21Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T21:03:31Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-11T21:04:56Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-02-11T21:06:49Z jmercouris: is there any way to have a sort of 'lazy' variable evaluation? 2021-02-11T21:06:58Z jmercouris: for example I have some (defparameter q (some-funcall)) 2021-02-11T21:07:09Z jmercouris: and then only do (some-funcall) whenever I try to access q 2021-02-11T21:07:41Z jmercouris: I could make a function (q), but I am wondering if it is possible with a variable 2021-02-11T21:07:54Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:07:55Z jmercouris: since everything is an object, is there an accessor here or something? 2021-02-11T21:08:32Z devon joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:08:54Z Nilby: jmercouris: I guess you could use a symbol macro 2021-02-11T21:09:27Z Nilby: jmercouris: But I find symbol macros usually cause more trouble than they're worth. 2021-02-11T21:09:27Z jmercouris: hm, I guess you could 2021-02-11T21:09:37Z jmercouris: seems like a bad idea 2021-02-11T21:10:23Z jmercouris: the problem I have is with this: Globally establishes an expansion function for the symbol macro named by symbol 2021-02-11T21:10:29Z jmercouris: globally seems like a recipe for disaster 2021-02-11T21:10:58Z jmercouris: OK, now for my much simpler question 2021-02-11T21:11:04Z Nilby: right, but symbols usually have a package 2021-02-11T21:11:06Z jmercouris: I wrote this function, and I think it could be a lot better 2021-02-11T21:11:21Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/BAJHXNRGE 2021-02-11T21:11:31Z dddddd__ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:11:35Z jmercouris: Nilby: still within that package... I don't know, it seems like I could accidentally cause all sorts of havoc 2021-02-11T21:12:50Z prxq: jmercouris: why do you do it this way? Why not subclass? 2021-02-11T21:12:53Z jmercouris: I guess I could get rid of the find-if and use the one loop until I have a result I like 2021-02-11T21:13:09Z jmercouris: prxq: it's a long story, do not worry about that part 2021-02-11T21:13:10Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-11T21:13:14Z jmercouris: there is a very good reason for it 2021-02-11T21:13:29Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-11T21:13:33Z jmercouris: a user-class is a macro generated subclass, you can still use normal subclasses 2021-02-11T21:13:49Z prxq: okay, I can relate to that long-story situation :-) 2021-02-11T21:14:07Z dddddd_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T21:15:00Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T21:15:28Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:18:47Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-11T21:19:41Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-02-11T21:19:43Z Nilby: jmercouris: Perhaps you could just do the intern in a :key in the find-if and just do one make-instance wrapping the find-if ? That is if you don't mean to make all the interfaces instances as a side-effect. 2021-02-11T21:20:02Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:21:05Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T21:21:24Z jmercouris: hm, that's true 2021-02-11T21:21:26Z dddddd_ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:21:28Z jmercouris: that is possible 2021-02-11T21:21:35Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:22:06Z jmercouris: I think you mean the object creation in the key 2021-02-11T21:23:01Z dra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T21:23:09Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:24:02Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T21:24:07Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:24:19Z dddddd__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T21:24:51Z pve: Hey, I'm trying to get an intuition for how replacing a call to a generic function with a call to a closure in a loop will affect performance. Will this test land me in the right ballpark? 2021-02-11T21:24:55Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2292 2021-02-11T21:25:25Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T21:26:35Z dddddd__ joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:26:47Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:28:51Z dddddd_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T21:29:08Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:29:49Z dbotton_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-11T21:31:07Z dddddd__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-11T21:32:27Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:34:29Z ftq joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:34:42Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-11T21:38:03Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-11T21:41:26Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T21:51:34Z cognemo quit (Quit: cognemo) 2021-02-11T21:51:47Z Bike: seems ok to me. 2021-02-11T21:52:13Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:02:04Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-11T22:02:33Z pve: Bike: thank you 2021-02-11T22:04:22Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-11T22:06:22Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:08:26Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:09:50Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T22:10:02Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:17:25Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-11T22:18:23Z mrchampion quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-02-11T22:22:04Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:26:21Z ftq quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T22:30:50Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:35:21Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-11T22:41:08Z gendl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T22:41:12Z selwyn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T22:41:20Z mpontillo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T22:41:20Z jmercouris quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T22:41:22Z theruran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T22:41:28Z selwyn joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:41:31Z mpontillo joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:41:36Z jmercouris joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:41:45Z gendl joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:42:00Z theruran joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:42:33Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-11T22:42:54Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:59:07Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-11T22:59:48Z Xach: quicklisp now comes with sbcl 3.x as a fallback, which should hopefully reduce some confusing clisp failures a little. 2021-02-11T23:00:27Z Xach: not all of them, as some systems rely on a newer asdf than i am using for a fallback. but it may help a little. 2021-02-11T23:00:50Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-02-11T23:00:50Z wooden quit (Changing host) 2021-02-11T23:00:50Z wooden joined #lisp 2021-02-11T23:02:15Z _death: sbcl 3.x.. I want some of that 2021-02-11T23:02:34Z Xach: oops 2021-02-11T23:02:35Z Xach: sorry 2021-02-11T23:02:38Z Xach: asdf 3.x 2021-02-11T23:02:54Z waleee-cl: is there a list of magic numbers used in the style-warnings emitted by sbcl? I got "This is not a (MOD 4611686018427387901)" 2021-02-11T23:03:02Z _death: that's cool.. I did swap ql's asdf to get clisp working 2021-02-11T23:03:55Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-11T23:04:01Z _death: waleee-cl: that's approx 2^61 2021-02-11T23:04:34Z _death: waleee-cl: most-positive-fixnum - 2 2021-02-11T23:05:07Z waleee-cl: missed to paste a: NIL on the next line 2021-02-11T23:07:07Z waleee-cl: hm. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_most_p.htm I do use an array in proximity to the warning 2021-02-11T23:07:34Z Bike: that's 2^62 - 3 2021-02-11T23:07:40Z _death: well, array indexes must be nonnegative fixnums 2021-02-11T23:07:55Z Bike: oh missed response sorry 2021-02-11T23:07:56Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-11T23:08:10Z waleee-cl: welp, must be doing something stupid 2021-02-11T23:08:11Z _death: Bike: oops, indeed 2021-02-11T23:08:26Z waleee-cl: _death: thanks for the hints 2021-02-11T23:08:32Z Bike: waleee-cl: more directly, it's array-dimension-limit in my sbcl 2021-02-11T23:08:36Z Bike: yours too, i imagine 2021-02-11T23:08:40Z Bike: clhs array-dimension-limit 2021-02-11T23:08:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_dim.htm 2021-02-11T23:09:08Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-02-11T23:11:25Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-11T23:11:45Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T23:21:49Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T23:23:45Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T23:24:48Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-11T23:31:36Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T23:33:47Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-11T23:36:04Z ski joined #lisp 2021-02-11T23:39:40Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T23:42:12Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-02-11T23:43:05Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-11T23:49:41Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-11T23:52:22Z patrixl joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:10:29Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T00:12:39Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-12T00:13:11Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T00:13:34Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:13:40Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:17:40Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T00:17:50Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:18:41Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:18:59Z matryoshka` quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-12T00:21:32Z wire_wolf joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:25:01Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-12T00:26:01Z anticrisis quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-12T00:29:22Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:34:06Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-12T00:38:50Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:41:49Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:42:34Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:42:45Z iamFIREc1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T00:45:55Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-12T00:51:37Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-12T00:51:53Z aoeuoau joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:52:32Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-12T00:54:17Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-12T00:54:34Z torbo joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:56:09Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:56:16Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-12T00:57:39Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-12T01:05:21Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T01:10:09Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T01:10:35Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T01:10:50Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-12T01:12:06Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-12T01:12:27Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-12T01:16:05Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-12T01:18:20Z elliot` joined #lisp 2021-02-12T01:20:26Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-12T01:21:08Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-12T01:22:38Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-02-12T01:24:54Z elliot`: Hello! Does anyone know if it is possible to reload a foreign library, using CFFI, and see changes without restarting the running Lisp process? In the documentation for `cffi:load-foreign-library' it says the library is reloaded if already loaded, but this does not seem to work for me. 2021-02-12T01:25:19Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-12T01:31:12Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-12T01:31:49Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-12T01:43:01Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-02-12T01:46:45Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-12T01:47:07Z devon: elliot`: apparently CFFI::CANARY can be configured to inhibit reload 2021-02-12T01:48:36Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-12T01:48:38Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T01:49:22Z devon: Would QuickLisp break if users share ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/archives -> /usr/share/... 2021-02-12T01:53:45Z matryoshka joined #lisp 2021-02-12T01:56:14Z elliot`: devon: Thanks! I'll have a look. 2021-02-12T02:02:38Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-12T02:09:41Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-12T02:20:46Z teej joined #lisp 2021-02-12T02:23:04Z natj212 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-12T02:24:21Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-12T02:28:35Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-12T02:30:26Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-12T02:30:47Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-12T02:30:54Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-12T02:31:16Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T02:31:50Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-12T02:31:56Z elliot` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-12T02:33:20Z aoeuoau quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-12T02:34:00Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T02:35:50Z rixard_ joined #lisp 2021-02-12T02:35:50Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T02:44:13Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-12T02:55:36Z Sheilong quit 2021-02-12T03:06:36Z CrazyPython quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T03:12:24Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-02-12T03:14:11Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T03:15:19Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-12T03:16:19Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-12T03:19:16Z rixard_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T03:20:23Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-02-12T03:25:42Z rixard_ joined #lisp 2021-02-12T03:25:58Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T03:39:28Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-12T04:02:51Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-12T04:04:16Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-12T04:04:27Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-12T04:04:42Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-12T04:04:53Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-12T04:07:54Z dbotton: If anyone would like to try out the clog-gui desktop in your browser - http://office.botton.com:8080/ 2021-02-12T04:08:12Z dbotton: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/22-tutorial.lisp - that is the source 2021-02-12T04:12:54Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-12T04:22:02Z Codaraxis__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T04:29:45Z rixard_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T04:30:35Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T04:31:18Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-02-12T04:33:00Z rixard joined #lisp 2021-02-12T04:33:04Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-12T04:34:39Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2021-02-12T04:35:05Z mister_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T04:37:45Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T04:39:33Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-12T04:45:46Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T04:47:49Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T04:48:16Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T04:49:14Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-12T04:49:47Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2021-02-12T04:50:25Z charles`: dbotton: that is very impressive and ambitious, also a little buggy. 2021-02-12T04:57:38Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-12T04:58:45Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-12T05:08:40Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-12T05:15:48Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-12T05:17:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T05:21:06Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-12T05:22:27Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-12T05:31:32Z contrapunctus: Reading CL sources, I am able to appreciate (Elisp) `checkdoc`'s insistence on adding a docstring for every definition, and documenting every argument. x-P 2021-02-12T05:33:59Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-12T05:34:40Z contrapunctus: What if Quicklisp made it necessary for all new CL systems to have docstrings for every definition, a la MELPA? 🤔 2021-02-12T05:36:24Z beach: It is pretty pointless to have docstrings for every definition. Definitions internal to some system are not meant to be used by clients of that system, so the people who need to know about those definitions are the same as the ones that will read the code. 2021-02-12T05:37:19Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-12T05:38:11Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-12T05:38:46Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-12T05:41:33Z contrapunctus: beach: in my case, I'm using `legit`, which is missing a command I want, so I looked at the source and found `define-git-wrapper` which is used to define all the commands. But it's entirely undocumented. I guess lack of documentation hinders not just use, but contributions too. 2021-02-12T05:42:58Z contrapunctus: (I can at best guess how to use it, by hopefully understanding the intent from the source and by reading the other calls...but a guess is a lot worse than the word of god^Athe author.) 2021-02-12T05:43:01Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-12T05:47:52Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-12T05:48:47Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-12T05:52:26Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T05:53:42Z beach: contrapunctus: Comments are the "documentation" meant for the other category, i.e. the ones that are also likely to read the source code. Documentation strings are for clients who are interested only in the protocol/interface. 2021-02-12T05:56:27Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T05:57:53Z phantomics__ quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2021-02-12T05:58:13Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-02-12T05:59:40Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-12T06:11:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-12T06:13:36Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-12T06:20:43Z xlarsx quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-12T06:21:43Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-12T06:24:38Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-12T06:24:38Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-02-12T06:24:38Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-12T06:25:52Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T06:28:15Z holycow joined #lisp 2021-02-12T06:29:57Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-12T06:31:15Z wire_wolf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-12T06:32:04Z jasom: Implementing yaml in CL, I found a discrepancy between the BNF used in the reference implementation and the specification :/ 2021-02-12T06:33:45Z beach: The reference implementation and the specification of yaml, I suppose, yes? 2021-02-12T06:36:21Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T06:41:37Z xlarsx quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-12T06:42:48Z jasom: yes. It looks like the two grammars are equivalent, but was very confusing because they mirror each other except for a single place 2021-02-12T06:43:35Z jasom: And I implemented according to the spec and stole the unit tests from the reference implementation 2021-02-12T06:49:28Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-12T06:49:36Z jasom: roughly A -> (B - c), C -> B, B -> D vs A-> B, C-> B | c, B -> (D - c) 2021-02-12T06:54:40Z beach: I feared you were talking about Common Lisp, and couldn't figure out what "reference implementation" that would be. 2021-02-12T07:03:55Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-12T07:06:29Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-12T07:06:49Z jackdaniel: clisp of course, it has it in the name :) 2021-02-12T07:07:00Z beach: Right. 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Flickers a bit when you rotate and resize though. 2021-02-12T10:31:17Z jackdaniel: well, I'm fixing sheet transformations as an interruption from implementing double buffering after all :) 2021-02-12T10:31:32Z jackdaniel: thanks 2021-02-12T10:37:38Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T10:39:37Z iamFIREcracker quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T10:43:19Z dim: hey jackdaniel, I just tried to (ql:quickload "pgloader") with ECL 20.4.24 and it failed with: 2021-02-12T10:43:31Z dim: [package cl-ppcre].......... / Condition of type: SIMPLE-ERROR /Unable to create pipe / C library explanation: Too many open files. 2021-02-12T10:43:47Z dim: (those were 4 lines, I made them one for sharing here inline) 2021-02-12T10:44:20Z jackdaniel: dim: does it also happen in 21.2.1? 2021-02-12T10:44:20Z dim: I have quit that instance of ECL and started the process again, knowing that some of the dependencies have now been compiled 2021-02-12T10:44:36Z dim: I just did brew upgrade ecl this morning, that's the most recent I have at the moment 2021-02-12T10:45:02Z dim: seems like https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/ecl disagrees, okay 2021-02-12T10:45:18Z dim: will try again soon with the newer version, I guess I need to brew update first 2021-02-12T10:45:35Z jackdaniel: OK, let me know when you try it 2021-02-12T10:46:39Z dim: I'm letting current ecl version do its thing, it looks like the second attempt might work 2021-02-12T10:47:34Z dim: if you want a stress test for your compiler system then (ql:quickload "pgloader") is a nice one, given the amount of dependencies ;-) 2021-02-12T10:48:56Z dim: yeah compiled it on second try 2021-02-12T10:49:05Z prxq: great to see that ECL is alive again 2021-02-12T10:56:23Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: post it on the Get Excited page, there's a severe lack of animated demos. PS Always found the "boring dreams" quote to be ambiguous, grand and yet with 0 revealing info, and therefore a bit maddening (all quotes on that page are to an extent, but this one takes the prize). 2021-02-12T10:57:08Z jackdaniel: I've hand-picked them and this one is my favourite :) 2021-02-12T10:57:43Z jackdaniel: I will refresh get excited page 2021-02-12T10:57:49Z jackdaniel: I have plenty of short videos and screenshots 2021-02-12T10:58:05Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: that would help : ) 2021-02-12T10:59:40Z jackdaniel: re animated videos: https://twitter.com/i/status/1357289617385525248 2021-02-12T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-12T11:01:14Z VincentVega: yeah not bad for showing the interactive side of it! 2021-02-12T11:03:28Z _death: jackdaniel: except that the slot name should be "rotation" ;) 2021-02-12T11:03:43Z jackdaniel: _death: yeah, that's true 2021-02-12T11:03:48Z jackdaniel: that's what you get for showing the c ode 2021-02-12T11:03:50Z jackdaniel: code* 2021-02-12T11:04:08Z jackdaniel goes full proprietary now ;) 2021-02-12T11:06:42Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T11:14:36Z xlarsx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T11:15:15Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-12T11:19:49Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-12T11:19:50Z xlarsx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T11:23:07Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T11:23:07Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-12T11:29:38Z tgbugs joined #lisp 2021-02-12T11:30:46Z tfb: Are there any good examples of things which define extensions (specifically: new component types) for ASDF. 2021-02-12T11:31:04Z tfb: (component classes I mean, obviously) 2021-02-12T11:31:12Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T11:32:42Z diamondbond quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-12T11:34:54Z diamondbond joined #lisp 2021-02-12T11:41:13Z prxq: tfb: the asd file of matlisp has some 2021-02-12T11:46:05Z tfb: prxq: is the current version of that the one on sourceforge? (and thanks) 2021-02-12T11:46:58Z prxq: tfb: i think so. np. 2021-02-12T11:49:07Z Duuqnd joined #lisp 2021-02-12T11:50:56Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T11:53:58Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-12T12:06:27Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-12T12:11:51Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-12T12:13:10Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-12T12:15:27Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T12:20:54Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-12T12:22:43Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-12T12:23:04Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-12T12:24:05Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-12T12:24:26Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-12T12:26:37Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-12T12:30:22Z akovalenko joined #lisp 2021-02-12T12:31:20Z VincentVega: Is there a way to make a construct like `(let ((a 0)) (defmacro mc () `(+ 1 2)) (mc))` work without using a macrolet? I have a defsmth that defines a bunch of things including some macros and I want it to be a part of a test so that _everything_ gets reevaluated, including those macros when the test runs, thus keeping up with the code base. 2021-02-12T12:34:28Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-12T12:38:18Z heisig: VincentVega: Sounds like you just want to call EVAL on that form. That would reevaluate local macros, too. 2021-02-12T12:43:36Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-12T12:48:33Z xlarsx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T12:48:52Z VincentVega: heisig: Like this (let ((a 0)) (defmacro mc8 () `(+ 1 2)) (eval '(mc8)))? Hmm not exactly ideal, because I would have to wrap the test code manually, but I guess that's better than nothing huh. 2021-02-12T12:51:55Z heisig: VincentVega: My suggestion would be to eval the entire thing: (eval '(let ((a 0)) (macrolet ...))). Assuming I correctly understood what you want. 2021-02-12T12:53:12Z VincentVega: heisig: doesn't work I'm afraid : ( This still gives an error (eval '(let ((a 0)) (defmacro mc9 () `(+ 1 2)) (mc9)))  mc10 is a macro, not a function 2021-02-12T12:54:16Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-12T12:54:23Z jackdaniel: hint hint: (compiler-let ;) 2021-02-12T12:54:45Z tfb: VincentVega: yes, it will fail: macroexpanson has all finished by the time the macro is defined. 2021-02-12T12:55:18Z VincentVega: tfb: yes, and I am looking for a fix : D other than a macrolet 2021-02-12T12:55:37Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: is it a part of some library? 2021-02-12T12:55:41Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: (apropos 'compiler-let) 2021-02-12T12:55:57Z jackdaniel: it was part of cltl (but did not make it to ansi standard) 2021-02-12T12:56:07Z jackdaniel: some implementations ship it regardless 2021-02-12T12:56:32Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: thanks for the hint, I will check it out 2021-02-12T12:56:54Z jackdaniel: but I don't know how well it will work for your use case 2021-02-12T12:56:56Z tfb: VincentVega: can you explain why you need `a` to be locally bound in the macro? Chances are there's some solution which would work 2021-02-12T12:58:33Z VincentVega: tfb: I don't need it bound to a macro though. 2021-02-12T12:58:49Z Duuqnd quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-12T12:59:43Z tfb: VincentVega: in the macro, not to a macro: what's the purpose of (let (...) (defmacro ...))? Presumably the macro is using a somewhere? 2021-02-12T13:00:35Z VincentVega: tfb: I just need to have a defmacro to take effect before the code which uses that defmacro within the same let statement (or a lambda) - the lambda is what the unit testing framework I am using has. 2021-02-12T13:01:04Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-12T13:01:47Z tfb: VincentVega: then yes, you'll need eval or some moral equivalent like compile 2021-02-12T13:02:11Z VincentVega: `a` is just placeholder, I don't know why I included it, (let () (defmacro mc12 () `(+ 1 2)) (mc12)) 2021-02-12T13:02:19Z VincentVega: tfb: OK 2021-02-12T13:02:19Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:04:27Z nij: I have many threads wild going on. It's a great time to inspect them. .. But how? I've in-packaged to sb-thread, and (list-all-threads).. clicking on one of the objects returns this: https://bpa.st/RLYA 2021-02-12T13:06:01Z nij: the slot "control-stack-start" means "Universal-time: 4445093-09-17T00:39:12-07:00".. which is super weird. Can't I at least see when the thread started? And can't I see its content (i.e. the functions it had/will run) without #'interrupting-thread? 2021-02-12T13:07:18Z phoe: "the slot ... means ..." you got it wrong 2021-02-12T13:07:31Z phoe: it tries to parse that integer as universal time, which doesn't really make sense 2021-02-12T13:07:52Z phoe: I don't know what units that time is in but I don't think it's universal time. 2021-02-12T13:08:20Z nij: I see. Inspecting any integer leads it to interpretting it as universal time.. (i just tried on "3").. 2021-02-12T13:10:08Z pankajsg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T13:10:20Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:11:02Z phoe: yes, it's an inspector thing 2021-02-12T13:11:13Z phoe: it doesn't know the context in which it should interpret a given integer 2021-02-12T13:11:28Z nij: i see. i was misled. Seems that I should dig into the manual of sb-thread. I will do that. 2021-02-12T13:12:05Z tfb quit 2021-02-12T13:12:57Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:13:04Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:15:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-12T13:15:35Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:16:16Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:16:31Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:17:09Z opcode quit (K-Lined) 2021-02-12T13:17:09Z drot quit (K-Lined) 2021-02-12T13:17:59Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:18:35Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:18:46Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:19:22Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:19:33Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:20:10Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:20:16Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-12T13:20:21Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:20:44Z heisig quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:20:45Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:20:57Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:21:01Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:21:08Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:21:16Z jmercouris: does someone have reccomendations for interesting UIs or rare CL libraries? 2021-02-12T13:21:22Z jmercouris: recommendations* 2021-02-12T13:21:44Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:21:56Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:22:01Z nij: for what 2021-02-12T13:22:03Z nij: fun? 2021-02-12T13:22:32Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:22:36Z Nilby: garent is an interesting an rare ui still somewhat works 2021-02-12T13:22:36Z beach: jmercouris: I'm with nij. For what purpose? 2021-02-12T13:22:43Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:23:18Z beach: "Garnet" you mean? 2021-02-12T13:23:19Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:23:31Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:23:37Z jmercouris: for learning 2021-02-12T13:23:45Z jmercouris: I'm thinking about new ideas 2021-02-12T13:24:07Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:24:10Z beach: jmercouris: I can tell you that the CLIM specification is what taught me about how to use CLOS. 2021-02-12T13:24:17Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:24:52Z jmercouris: really? I thought you knoew clos a priori 2021-02-12T13:24:54Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:25:04Z Nilby: Yes "Garnet", Sorry. Fingers not working well. 2021-02-12T13:25:05Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:25:11Z beach: jmercouris: That was 21 years ago. 2021-02-12T13:25:15Z jmercouris: reference link: https://github.com/earl-ducaine/cl-garnet 2021-02-12T13:25:23Z jmercouris: ah, that is a while indeed 2021-02-12T13:25:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T13:25:39Z heisig quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-12T13:25:41Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:25:53Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:26:00Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-12T13:26:05Z jmercouris: who made the CLIM specification, and is it part of the ansi spec? 2021-02-12T13:26:16Z jmercouris: and if it is part of the ansi spec, why are there such few implementations? 2021-02-12T13:26:20Z beach: It is not part of the Common Lisp standard, no. 2021-02-12T13:26:29Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T13:26:54Z beach: It was made essentially by Scott McKay. 2021-02-12T13:26:58Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:27:08Z beach: I forget where he worked at the time. Symbolics maybe. 2021-02-12T13:27:20Z jmercouris: I see 2021-02-12T13:27:34Z jmercouris: and what happened to "Clim 2.0"? 2021-02-12T13:27:35Z jackdaniel: beach: yes, symbolics 2021-02-12T13:27:43Z beach: jmercouris: That's what we are using. 2021-02-12T13:27:52Z jmercouris: Why are you calling it McClim? 2021-02-12T13:27:58Z jmercouris: instead of "Clim 2.0"? 2021-02-12T13:28:10Z beach: jmercouris: CLIM 2.0 is a specification. 2021-02-12T13:28:11Z jackdaniel: William York is mentioned in the spec as co-author (and a few others for contributions) 2021-02-12T13:28:22Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:28:25Z beach: McCLIM is an implementation of the specification that was started by Mike McDonald. 2021-02-12T13:28:33Z jmercouris: I see 2021-02-12T13:28:41Z jmercouris: so Scott McKay wrote a spec some time in the 80s 2021-02-12T13:28:51Z jmercouris: and then Mike McDonald implemented that spec on CL? 2021-02-12T13:28:57Z hhdave: What was the predecessor of CLIM called? Did Scott develop that? (if it had a name)? Was that Dynamic Windows? 2021-02-12T13:29:00Z Nilby: McKay also wrote something like LIM in Dylan, as well as Emacs in Dylan called Duece. 2021-02-12T13:29:03Z Nilby: yes 2021-02-12T13:29:15Z jackdaniel: hhdave: Dynamic Windows, yes 2021-02-12T13:29:34Z hhdave: Was DW Scott as well? 2021-02-12T13:29:38Z beach: jmercouris: I forget the dates, but Mike McDonald wanted a free implementation of the spec, and the existing implementations were commercial. 2021-02-12T13:29:41Z jmercouris: outside of CLIM, any other rare libraries to recommend? 2021-02-12T13:29:56Z jmercouris: beach: could the commercial implementations run on a free implementation? 2021-02-12T13:30:03Z nij: Oh wow I'm amazed by the graphical output: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Interface_Manager#/media/File:Listener.png 2021-02-12T13:30:06Z jmercouris: ASSUMING no usage of implementation specific code 2021-02-12T13:30:06Z hhdave: I think the Dylan equivalent (DUIM) never got as far as presentations though. As far as I know 2021-02-12T13:30:08Z jackdaniel: the oldest commits in the "original" codebase date back to '87 2021-02-12T13:30:09Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:30:17Z nij: Can I do that with slime/sly? 2021-02-12T13:30:39Z jmercouris: not easily 2021-02-12T13:30:40Z Nilby: I used DUIM, so yeah it worked. 2021-02-12T13:30:46Z beach: jmercouris: I believe that was and is possible, yes. The commercial implementations have bee freed I believe. 2021-02-12T13:30:56Z jmercouris: s/bee/been? 2021-02-12T13:31:04Z jackdaniel: we've ported clim-tos to "work" on sbcl and ccl 2021-02-12T13:31:07Z jackdaniel: but it has many glitches 2021-02-12T13:31:12Z beach: Yes, been. 2021-02-12T13:31:15Z jackdaniel: either way it starts and runs basic demos 2021-02-12T13:31:32Z hhdave: it does :) 2021-02-12T13:31:32Z beach: McLIM is way better than the commercial implementations ever were at this point. 2021-02-12T13:31:39Z jmercouris: I see 2021-02-12T13:31:45Z tfb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T13:32:01Z jmercouris: even better than the Lispworks CAPI? 2021-02-12T13:32:02Z _death: nij: you can play with it yourself! (ql:quickload "clim-listener") (clim-listener:run-listener) .. though some things are a bit broken (but it may be an opportunity to fix ;) 2021-02-12T13:32:09Z beach: Scott told us that our implementation (done by moore33) is how they meant to do it, if their Common Lisp implementation had allowed it. 2021-02-12T13:32:33Z beach: Our implementation of presentation types, I meant to say. 2021-02-12T13:32:52Z jmercouris: you know how you can view downloads on Melpa by frequency, a way to view this information for Ql? 2021-02-12T13:34:21Z Nilby: jmercouris: quicklisp-stats 2021-02-12T13:34:23Z beach: jmercouris: CAPI is not an implementation of the CLIM specification. 2021-02-12T13:34:53Z JeromeLon joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:35:31Z jackdaniel: hhdave: I don't know whether he worked on Dynamic Windows too 2021-02-12T13:35:51Z jmercouris: beach: yes, is it however BETTER than CLIM? 2021-02-12T13:36:07Z beach: jmercouris: I don't know. I don't own a copy of LispWorks. 2021-02-12T13:36:08Z jackdaniel: it is more conventional 2021-02-12T13:36:25Z jmercouris: Nilby: thanks 2021-02-12T13:38:09Z _death: beach: I recently read Moore's paper on presentation types.. I think the issue was absence of CLOS/MOP 2021-02-12T13:38:21Z nij: _death: INDEED! Had it pulled down. Whatelse can I try right away? 2021-02-12T13:38:31Z beach: _death: Ah, I see. Makes sense. 2021-02-12T13:38:33Z nij: And why couldn't emacs rendor such graphical output? 2021-02-12T13:39:33Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:40:00Z _death: nij: check out the clouseau inspector.. (ql:quickload "clouseau") (clouseau:inspect (find-class 'standard-object)) 2021-02-12T13:41:01Z _death: though that may be too much for it right now :d 2021-02-12T13:41:04Z beach: nij: It probably could, but CLIM has the advantage of running in the same process as the Common Lisp system, so everything is much easier then, compared to having to translate everything to a sequence of bytes. 2021-02-12T13:42:46Z nij: beach: But I also noticed that CLIM doesn't work pretty well with keyboards.. is it possible to set it up like emacs? 2021-02-12T13:43:22Z jackdaniel: I'm working on that 2021-02-12T13:43:30Z jackdaniel: a few stack frames above the current think I'm hacking on 2021-02-12T13:43:31Z beach: nij: I am not sure what you are referring to, but detailed questions like that are better asked in #clim. 2021-02-12T13:43:47Z jackdaniel: I think that he means key combos 2021-02-12T13:43:49Z beach: "current think" I like that! 2021-02-12T13:43:50Z jackdaniel: they currently work with esa 2021-02-12T13:43:51Z msk__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-12T13:44:12Z jackdaniel: oh, it was supposed to be a thing, but let's call it a happy coincidence 2021-02-12T13:44:27Z beach: Yes, again, I like it. 2021-02-12T13:44:35Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:44:36Z Nilby: I love CLIM but I feel like it could use a big picture architectural redesign. 2021-02-12T13:44:52Z jackdaniel: :) time to take a lunch break, if some questions happen on #clim I'll be happy to answer afterwards 2021-02-12T13:45:13Z _death: well, clim does need some work on that too.. for example, you'd expect to be able to click on a text-editor-pane's text and have the cursor go there, but nope 2021-02-12T13:45:25Z beach: Nilby: Oh? The architecture mainly follows the specification. What's the problem with it? 2021-02-12T13:45:26Z jackdaniel: Nilby: you may want to be more specific 2021-02-12T13:46:27Z jackdaniel: _death: that's true 2021-02-12T13:46:57Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:47:03Z beach: Nilby, _death: McCLIM is an implementation of a big and complex standard, and it is all done by volunteers, or nearly so. Feel free to help out to make this the preferred GUI library for Common Lisp applications. 2021-02-12T13:47:58Z _death: yes, it's a very ambitious project, and lots of skilled people have done great work on it so far.. thanks! 2021-02-12T13:48:10Z ey[m] left #lisp 2021-02-12T13:49:21Z torbo joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:49:52Z Nilby: Like separate out a platform indenpent graphics library, event loop handling, separate editing substrate, consider mapping to platform ui's, etc. Presenations, and emacs style application frameworkds are great, but maybe shold be separte too. 2021-02-12T13:50:15Z jackdaniel: Nilby: these things are separate 2021-02-12T13:50:35Z jackdaniel: I mean, you've literally listed things which are sorted in independent modules 2021-02-12T13:50:38Z _death: I also looked at BB1 code the other day, which used CLIM for GUI.. it has for example a grapher module, that may be useful in mcclim 2021-02-12T13:50:48Z _death: though I didn't try it yet 2021-02-12T13:53:26Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:54:20Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:54:28Z _death: it's not too difficult to change the look of mcclim's motif-like widgets, but right now I think you have to patch it, or create a shadow hierarchy 2021-02-12T13:54:46Z beach: That aspect is also being worked on. 2021-02-12T13:54:50Z beach: Feel free to help out. 2021-02-12T13:55:43Z _death: the thing is, I don't tend to write GUIs :).. I'm a clim newbie basically.. just played with it a little to write some simple GUIs 2021-02-12T13:56:21Z beach: That's already good. 2021-02-12T13:56:37Z _death: I found some small bugs and contributed patches 2021-02-12T13:56:44Z beach: Great! 2021-02-12T13:56:52Z jackdaniel: ha, I have it: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/9736edb5-eduardo.webm 2021-02-12T13:56:58Z jackdaniel: _death: ^ re pointer clicking 2021-02-12T13:57:13Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-12T13:57:16Z jackdaniel: (another stashed thing in the upstack) 2021-02-12T13:57:18Z _death: there are still issues, especially with a tiling window manager like stumpwm, but overall things work 2021-02-12T13:57:38Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:58:03Z _death: jackdaniel: cool 2021-02-12T13:58:07Z beach: What I find, let's say "interesting", is how some people seem to prefer to go the FFI route, with lots of pain as a result, rather than contributing a bit to McCLIM. 2021-02-12T13:58:12Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-02-12T13:59:16Z _death: beach: well, I also explored the FFI route before, as well as the ECL embedding route.. they all got pros/cons, but mcclim is a cool alternative anyway 2021-02-12T13:59:31Z beach: And getting better by the day. 2021-02-12T13:59:49Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:00:08Z Nilby: beach: I think many people have a hard time understanding CLIM unless they've been exposed to a LM style UI background. 2021-02-12T14:00:38Z beach: I mean, the "interesting" part is that, with a bit of work on McCLIM, everybody using Common Lisp could benefit, whereas the FFI route just creates a sum of pain for everyone without making any collective progress. 2021-02-12T14:00:51Z _death: I actually looked at CLIM years ago.. but it did take a while to seep in 2021-02-12T14:00:51Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:02:26Z jackdaniel: McCLIM new motto: overpromise, underdeliver 2021-02-12T14:02:33Z beach: _death: The other work in progress is a manual that presents CLIM "bottom-up", so that it looks familiar to people who are used to more primitive GUI libraries, and then discusses the advanced features as high-level tools on top of the basic stuff. 2021-02-12T14:02:52Z Nilby: beach: I basically agree, and don't like just using a non-Lisp FFI UI, but I dream that something like CLIM could integrate better with platform UIs. 2021-02-12T14:03:12Z _death: beach: some of the old material is already bottom-up.. like teaching you how to draw shapes and going from there 2021-02-12T14:03:41Z beach: _death: Maybe so. I forget the current state of things. 2021-02-12T14:03:45Z jackdaniel: beach: do you refer to my plans to make the lower abstractions more useful for (potential) competing toolkits? 2021-02-12T14:04:37Z beach: jackdaniel: Not quite. 2021-02-12T14:04:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-12T14:05:19Z beach: Nilby: I personally want something that is totally independent of existing toolkits, so that it can be used on a future Lisp OS without any C or C++-based libraries. 2021-02-12T14:05:31Z jackdaniel: OK 2021-02-12T14:05:35Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:06:06Z beach: jackdaniel: I think we have discussed just a way of structuring the manual so that it starts with the event-driven stuff, and builds upwards. 2021-02-12T14:06:30Z _death: Nilby: the way I see it right now, I think aesthetically pleasing CLIM applications are possible, using something like material design or some custom drawing.. once jackdaniel handles the flickering (and then there's the aliasing, which clx-fb "fixes", but..) 2021-02-12T14:06:58Z beach: But there are lots of interesting McCLIM-related projects to pursue, so just a few people can't accomplish everything right away. 2021-02-12T14:07:37Z mister_m quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T14:07:39Z Nilby: beach: I totally agree. But I wish it could also, play well with other things. 2021-02-12T14:08:18Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:08:19Z beach: Nilby: I dream that more Common Lisp programmers would think more in terms of collective benefits, given that we have very scarce resources as it is. 2021-02-12T14:08:29Z Nilby: I think the work jackdaniel and other have put into it is great, and I do belive it's possible to have aesthetically pleasing things now. 2021-02-12T14:08:39Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-12T14:08:45Z jackdaniel: beach: could be, I don't remember that discussion though (however such manual structure would certainly make sense). I remember talking about providing examples for using lower abstractions for windows etc using the "silica" part of clim 2021-02-12T14:08:47Z Nilby: the inspector is very aesthetically pleasing to me :) 2021-02-12T14:09:08Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, I think that's what we discussed. 2021-02-12T14:09:20Z beach: Clouseau is great now! 2021-02-12T14:09:28Z beach: I no longer use the SLIME inspector. 2021-02-12T14:09:29Z jackdaniel: Nilby: it was created by scymtym, he also created a more visually-pleasing mcclim theme 2021-02-12T14:10:05Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T14:11:23Z Nilby: beach: Yes. Considering collective benefits and scarce resources seems like how we have to move forward. 2021-02-12T14:12:02Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:12:16Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T14:13:19Z Xach: In my experience, volunteer programming work is not often very strategic in that regard. 2021-02-12T14:15:45Z Nilby: Xach: Yes, I find it's really hard to focus on the very important boring parts when nobody is pushing you to. 2021-02-12T14:17:03Z Nilby: and making people agree seems even harder :o 2021-02-12T14:19:27Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:22:05Z VincentVega: Nilby: "I think many people have a hard time understanding CLIM" Even though I _skimmed_ through the CLIM specification and found it quite sensible and also looked through Get Excited page and what not, I still feel like I don't know what it's about. though it does seem like there's something about it. I would guess this is a communication problem. 2021-02-12T14:22:12Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:22:31Z VincentVega: beach: "What I find, let's say "interesting", is how some people seem to prefer to go the FFI route, with lots of pain as a result, rather than contributing a bit to McCLIM." 2021-02-12T14:22:41Z VincentVega: beach: There would be reasons I guess : ) For example, I am currently hacking up an SDL GUI in Common Lisp as I need access to OpenGL. I couldn't make SDL work on McCLIM, though there's a backend, which apparently needs fixing. And there was a video on youtube where a McCLIM OpenGL backend worked, but was pretty slow for some reason. Uncertainty 2021-02-12T14:22:41Z VincentVega: has a way of weighing in on decisions like this. 2021-02-12T14:23:31Z _death: VincentVega: I think the CLIM spec is the wrong place to start.. it's one of the reasons it took me a while to understand, because I started with the CLIM spec, and yeah, I learned a lot about protocol design and CLOS, but to learn CLIM you need to first read a guide or a tutorial 2021-02-12T14:24:44Z VincentVega: VincentVega: which is tutorial examples, I would believe? I guessa will take a look. 2021-02-12T14:24:51Z VincentVega: _death: ^ 2021-02-12T14:27:22Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:28:28Z _death: VincentVega: see Documentation directory in mcclim 2021-02-12T14:28:48Z _death: there's the guided tour 2021-02-12T14:29:00Z Nilby: I feel like one of the core cool things about CLIM is: The thing on the screen is the real object, and you can edit it with the flexibility of emacs, and define how it should look with the flexibility of CLOS. But it's hard to understand immediately, unless you know those things. 2021-02-12T14:29:11Z _death: VincentVega: but there are other papers as well 2021-02-12T14:29:52Z VincentVega: _death: Ok, found it! 2021-02-12T14:31:17Z _death: VincentVega: https://github.com/mmontone/clim-doc 2021-02-12T14:32:00Z VincentVega: Nilby: I feel like this sort of things should be articulated somewhere on the surface, even if being incomplete, if it's to be expected for the reader to really get excited, with further directions. 2021-02-12T14:32:41Z VincentVega: _death: thanks! 2021-02-12T14:33:05Z tfb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T14:34:22Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:34:45Z Josh_2: Afternoon. Does anyone have a link to the old Bordeaux Threads docs? 2021-02-12T14:35:01Z beach: VincentVega: You don't have to defend yourself to me. I wasn't targeting you specifically. 2021-02-12T14:35:16Z lisp-machine quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-12T14:35:43Z VincentVega: beach: You misunderstood. I gave a case in point to your curiosity. 2021-02-12T14:35:43Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:36:14Z beach: VincentVega: No, I know that there are totally legitimate cases to go FFI. I am referring to the others. 2021-02-12T14:36:41Z VincentVega: beach: OK. 2021-02-12T14:38:43Z beach: So, in my opinion, we need the McCLIM documentation to be structured bottom-up. That way, the first chapter(s) will look familiar to people who are used to less sophisticated GUI libraries. And those who don't want to bother with the higher-level stuff can quit reading after those chapters and just program the way they would with traditional libraries. 2021-02-12T14:39:57Z beach: Then, the rest of the documentation would be structured as convenience layers on top of the protocols implemented by the bottom event-driven layer. 2021-02-12T14:41:04Z Nilby: beach: That sounds great. Although I'm not sure they're just convenience layers. 2021-02-12T14:41:20Z beach: What do you mean? 2021-02-12T14:44:12Z Josh_2: Whats the hyperspec entry on the feature included/not included reader macro? 2021-02-12T14:45:06Z yottabyte: I'm trying to use mito on windows, and as soon as I try mito:connect-toplevel I get an error: Unable to load foreign library (LIBMYSQLCLIENT). Error opening shared object "libmysql.dll":. I've located this file on my filesystem and I've tried clsql:push-library-path but it's still giving me the same error. I tried both windows paths (backslashes) and linux ones (forward slashes) for the string path 2021-02-12T14:45:06Z beach: Josh_2: The chapter "Syntax" 2021-02-12T14:45:07Z Nilby: I mean, some things like command tables, that are slightly alien to other UIs are somewhat core the CLIM. 2021-02-12T14:45:18Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:45:32Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:45:51Z beach: Nilby: Sure, I mean, those features are not needed if you prefer to program like you program a more traditional and less sophisticated GUI library. 2021-02-12T14:45:53Z Josh_2: beach: thanks 2021-02-12T14:46:28Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-02-12T14:47:21Z yottabyte: at the end of the day I just want to query a mysql database, if there's a more convenient library to use, I'm all ears. I just want to operate on result sets, not going to be doing any crazy orm stuff. no inserts/deletes 2021-02-12T14:48:56Z _death: yottabyte: there was a library that talks to mysql via sockets I think.. was it qmynd? 2021-02-12T14:49:43Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:50:23Z xlarsx quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-12T14:56:30Z equwal quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.1 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-12T14:56:59Z yottabyte: well I see this: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/define_002dforeign_002dlibrary.html 2021-02-12T14:57:06Z yottabyte: but I'm not sure how to specify a filepath 2021-02-12T14:57:21Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-02-12T14:59:37Z dbotton: Nilby you may what to try clog which is itself all CL using a browser for the UI - I have a demo up http://office.botton.com:8080/ 2021-02-12T14:59:45Z luni left #lisp 2021-02-12T15:00:27Z dbotton: One of my goals is to be total x platform and depend on as little beyond the lisp image as possible 2021-02-12T15:00:56Z dbotton: The web server would be only real piece of the puzzle that is tied to something not lisp 2021-02-12T15:01:15Z dbotton: And using CLACK to make sure can be switched out etc 2021-02-12T15:01:57Z JeromeLon left #lisp 2021-02-12T15:01:57Z dbotton: That is a full desktop abstraction I am working on at moment 2021-02-12T15:02:21Z dbotton: But no reason other then tools to keep that model 2021-02-12T15:02:42Z dbotton: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog 2021-02-12T15:09:31Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:12:27Z Nilby: dbotton: It seems you're progressing quite quickly. Perhaps if you make the protocol clean enough and not dependent on html/js you can switch between native and web stack rendering. No doubt it's tricky though. 2021-02-12T15:12:43Z nij: what does m stand for in "mrepl"? 2021-02-12T15:14:55Z Nilby: Maryland 2021-02-12T15:15:48Z _death: multi 2021-02-12T15:16:02Z Josh_2: I prefer Maryland 2021-02-12T15:16:17Z _death: multi meanings for mrepl 2021-02-12T15:17:00Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T15:17:19Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:17:35Z nij: oh i thought it's muh-repl 2021-02-12T15:17:56Z nij: so multi in the sense that many repls can connect to one sbcl instance? 2021-02-12T15:18:36Z _death: if you open slime-mrepl.el you can see the top comment :) 2021-02-12T15:19:36Z Josh_2: muh-repl xD 2021-02-12T15:19:37Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T15:19:40Z Josh_2: that was be great 2021-02-12T15:19:48Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:20:22Z aorst joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:20:22Z nij: xD 2021-02-12T15:20:24Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T15:20:27Z Nilby: oh shid muh-repl!!! 👾 2021-02-12T15:20:35Z dbotton: Nilby the plan is not to drop html/js, but I will have a version that drops using websockets for direct to browser control 2021-02-12T15:20:36Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:20:38Z aorst is now known as andreyorst[m] 2021-02-12T15:20:43Z _death: o-m-r 2021-02-12T15:20:49Z nij: lol 2021-02-12T15:21:12Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T15:21:15Z nij: Btw.. there's a difference in terms of output I get between these expressions.. one using let and one not.. WHY @@? https://bpa.st/O3SA 2021-02-12T15:21:24Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:21:31Z dbotton: For guis having a interpreted layer very worth while 2021-02-12T15:21:49Z dbotton: Like osx used PDF as its 2021-02-12T15:21:56Z dbotton: Next PS 2021-02-12T15:21:59Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T15:22:07Z dbotton: This is a progression to HTML 2021-02-12T15:22:10Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:22:29Z jmercouris: dbotton: what is a PS? 2021-02-12T15:22:30Z dbotton: There are many places to improve on it for sure, protocol etc 2021-02-12T15:22:34Z dbotton: Post script 2021-02-12T15:22:39Z Nilby: dbotton: Intersting. To be fair qt now uses qtml. Maybe an integration with nyxt? 2021-02-12T15:22:47Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T15:22:58Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:23:09Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:23:12Z dbotton: I not familiar with nyxt 2021-02-12T15:23:14Z _death: nij: special variable bindings are per thread, and *standard-output* is a special variable 2021-02-12T15:23:26Z jmercouris: dbotton: I assume you’ve seen ceramic or porcelain the electron wrapper for CL 2021-02-12T15:23:34Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T15:23:45Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:23:45Z dbotton: Yes I have used it and works well with ceramic 2021-02-12T15:24:14Z jmercouris: We have a UI library we use in Nyxt too 2021-02-12T15:24:21Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T15:24:30Z nij: _death: is special var a techinical term? How do I check a variable is special? I thought *abc* always mean a /global/ variable..? 2021-02-12T15:24:32Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:24:52Z dbotton: What is the url for the source for nyxt? 2021-02-12T15:24:57Z jmercouris: It is a technical term 2021-02-12T15:25:06Z jmercouris: Nyxt.atlas.engineer 2021-02-12T15:25:09Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T15:25:24Z _death: nij: a special variable is defined using defvar/defparameter, or special declaration.. the earmuffs are convention for naming special variables.. 2021-02-12T15:25:26Z dbotton: Nyxt does its own rendering of HTML? 2021-02-12T15:25:26Z jmercouris: nij: the stars are just a convention 2021-02-12T15:25:33Z jmercouris: Not exactly 2021-02-12T15:25:36Z nij: i see 2021-02-12T15:25:37Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:26:03Z _death: nij: the swank repl binds *standard-output*, and that binding is local to the repl thread 2021-02-12T15:26:12Z jmercouris: dbotton: please read the FAQ 2021-02-12T15:27:36Z _death: nij: you can see definition for "special variable" in the clhs glossary.. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm 2021-02-12T15:28:30Z _death: nij: and for a good explanation of scope and extent, you could read the CLtL2 chapter 2021-02-12T15:29:11Z equwal quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.1 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-12T15:29:20Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:30:33Z tfb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T15:31:13Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:32:03Z equwal quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-12T15:32:12Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:32:22Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:36:10Z equwal quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-12T15:36:17Z nij: i feel like i understand this (lexical/dynamic) but have never got it straight. 2021-02-12T15:36:19Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:36:26Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:37:45Z nij: Oh.. pointed here that (lexical/dynamic) is just /approximately/ (local/global)! 2021-02-12T15:37:53Z nij: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html 2021-02-12T15:38:13Z nij: That maybe why I always feel kinky about my understanding upon this. 2021-02-12T15:38:25Z equwal quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-12T15:39:29Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:40:12Z tfb: nij: no lexical and dynamic is not to do with local and global. You can have local dynamic bindings. CL does not have global lexicals by default but they can be emulated 2021-02-12T15:40:29Z nij: I see. M reading gigamonkey again. It's really well-written. 2021-02-12T15:41:05Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T15:41:30Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:41:49Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:42:30Z fubbiquantz: Is nil an atom? 2021-02-12T15:42:52Z Nilby: T 2021-02-12T15:42:53Z tfb: yes 2021-02-12T15:43:06Z fubbiquantz: How about '()? 2021-02-12T15:43:09Z tfb: yes 2021-02-12T15:43:11Z nij: It's also a list, i believe. 2021-02-12T15:43:23Z nij: no...? '() stands for (quote ()) 2021-02-12T15:43:28Z fubbiquantz: (I know '() and nil are the same) 2021-02-12T15:43:31Z beach: *sigh* 2021-02-12T15:43:33Z nij: it's a list, before evaluation 2021-02-12T15:43:59Z nij: Whenever beach *sigh*s I feel a breeze from the ocean. 2021-02-12T15:44:15Z nij: (a sense that i miss) 2021-02-12T15:44:43Z lisp-machine: nij: you used to live near the ocean? 2021-02-12T15:44:46Z beach: fubbiquantz: ' is a reader macro that turns ' into (quote ). 2021-02-12T15:45:03Z nij: lisp-machine: i used to live on a small island, surrounded by ocean 2021-02-12T15:45:06Z beach: fubbiquantz: So when it is read, '() turns into (quote nil). 2021-02-12T15:45:21Z lisp-machine: nij: that's pretty cool! 2021-02-12T15:45:23Z fubbiquantz: ok, that answers my question. Thanks. 2021-02-12T15:45:32Z nij: lisp-machine: xD 2021-02-12T15:45:33Z beach: fubbiquantz: Then, since NIL evaluates to itself, then when (quote nil) is evaluated, the value is nil. 2021-02-12T15:46:00Z nij: (quote (quote nil)) -> (quote nil) -> nil -> nil -> nil -> .. 2021-02-12T15:46:19Z beach: fubbiquantz: so, no, you can't say that '() and nil are the same. Because it depends on what you mean by "is". 2021-02-12T15:46:24Z beach: .. and "are". 2021-02-12T15:46:25Z nij: lisp-machine: now I'm in the middle of the US 2021-02-12T15:46:33Z nij: no mountain, no ocean.. 2021-02-12T15:46:43Z lisp-machine: so am I. Midwest... 2021-02-12T15:46:46Z beach: nij: What is "->"? 2021-02-12T15:46:53Z nij: fubbiquantz: after evaluation, they are the same 2021-02-12T15:46:55Z fubbiquantz: Perhaps my Scheme background is messing with my mind? :) 2021-02-12T15:47:07Z beach: nij: Common Lisp evaluates only once, not until a "normal form" is obtained. 2021-02-12T15:47:07Z nij: By "->" i mean evaluation 2021-02-12T15:47:20Z nij: yep only once 2021-02-12T15:47:38Z nij: lisp-machine: xD i missed mountain climbing and ocean breeze 2021-02-12T15:47:48Z nij: thus i came to #lisp, at lease i got the breeze 2021-02-12T15:48:15Z beach: fubbiquantz: In that respect, there is no great difference between Common Lisp and Scheme I think. 2021-02-12T15:48:27Z tfb: fubbiquantz: Scheme has no notion of atom, really. But in Scheme () is not self-evaluating 2021-02-12T15:48:37Z lisp-machine: nij: I'd like to move somewhere with mountains. It's as flat as a puddle here. 2021-02-12T15:48:39Z nij: WHAT scheme doesn't have atom :O! 2021-02-12T15:48:57Z beach: nij: Also, NIL is a list as well. 2021-02-12T15:49:07Z nij: yep 2021-02-12T15:49:15Z nij: it's a list of nothing 2021-02-12T15:49:18Z nij: i like this idea 2021-02-12T15:49:43Z equwal quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.1 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-12T15:49:53Z tfb: nij: I don't think any scheme has had atom as a type (or an atom? predicate), although I may be wrong on this. 2021-02-12T15:49:54Z Nilby: fubbiquantz: It's probably CL messing with your mind. Schmee is very sensible. CL is deeply weird. CL has been messing with mine for years. 2021-02-12T15:50:28Z tfb: ('any scheme' meaning, post RnRS for maybe n < 3) 2021-02-12T15:50:31Z fubbiquantz: Nilby: glad to know I'm not alone in feeling like Dr. Strange is a documentary about Lisp programming. 2021-02-12T15:50:51Z fubbiquantz: (common lisp programming, I mean) 2021-02-12T15:51:23Z Nilby: But I find the rest of the universe to be deeply weird too. 2021-02-12T15:51:33Z beach: fubbiquantz: Wait until you start learning about the MOP. Then your mind is going to be messed with much worse. 2021-02-12T15:52:26Z fubbiquantz: If CL programming is Dr. Strange in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, then what part of CL is the dark dimension? The loop macro? 2021-02-12T15:52:31Z fubbiquantz: beach: I can't wait. 2021-02-12T15:52:33Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:52:50Z equwal quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-12T15:53:00Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-02-12T15:56:17Z Xach: fubbiquantz: the pretty printer 2021-02-12T15:57:14Z jmercouris: Any CL code formatter exist? 2021-02-12T15:57:24Z jmercouris: Other than simply printing forms via CL itself 2021-02-12T15:57:36Z sjl: https://github.com/ds26gte/scmindent for indentation-only 2021-02-12T15:57:46Z dim: I use Emacs as my CL code formatter ;-) 2021-02-12T15:57:46Z jmercouris: I’m thinking of some automatic code styler type tools that exist for other languages 2021-02-12T15:58:06Z Nilby: heh, I think the dark dimension is where you get to from the FFI 2021-02-12T15:58:41Z dim: does https://editorconfig.org/ cover Common Lisp? 2021-02-12T16:01:43Z nij: I'm still confused.. why doesn't it print "100\n50" but "100\n100" instead? 2021-02-12T16:01:43Z nij: (setf abc 100) (let ((tmp abc)) (print tmp) (setf abc 50) (print tmp)) 2021-02-12T16:02:11Z jmercouris: sjl: thanks 2021-02-12T16:02:16Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-02-12T16:04:00Z tfb: nij: what would you expect "x=3; y=x; print y; x=4; print y;" to do in some traditional language? 2021-02-12T16:04:18Z nij: 3 and 3 2021-02-12T16:04:33Z tfb: nij: well, there you go then 2021-02-12T16:04:57Z nij: so (let ((tmp abc)) .. has already evaluated tmp to be the value of abc at /that time/? 2021-02-12T16:05:03Z nij: and then the body is performed 2021-02-12T16:05:26Z VincentVega92 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T16:05:46Z tfb: exactly: let binds variables to values 2021-02-12T16:06:18Z Nilby: or you could (with-output-to-string (s) (let ((*print-case* :downcase)) (pprint (read-from-string str) s))) But it not so hot. Like it says NIL when you might want () 2021-02-12T16:06:37Z tfb: (let ((x y)) ...) is pretty much ((lambda (x) ...) y) (it's not actually defined that way in CL of course) 2021-02-12T16:06:58Z nij: i thought i understood my previous question. .but no 2021-02-12T16:06:59Z nij: https://bpa.st/O3SA 2021-02-12T16:07:39Z nij: why would these give different things?.. if as what you said, out has been bound to *standard-output* already 2021-02-12T16:08:22Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T16:09:37Z tfb: Because (lambda () (uiop/image:print-backtrace :stream *standard-output*)) is a function. So it evaluates its body only when it is called, and since it uses *standard-output* free it gets the value of *standard-output* which is in effect at the moment it is called 2021-02-12T16:10:18Z equwal quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.1 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-12T16:10:48Z nij: O H : O ! 2021-02-12T16:10:52Z tfb: (because *standard-output* is a dynamic variable). 2021-02-12T16:11:23Z VincentVega92 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-12T16:11:32Z nij: so the second form (with let) it freezes the content of *standard-output* to OUT before the function runs!? 2021-02-12T16:11:43Z nij: Finally T_T thank you.. 2021-02-12T16:12:22Z tfb: While in ((let ((out ...)) (lambda ... (... out))) out is lexical, so the value of out in the function is the value which was lexically visible when the function was defined 2021-02-12T16:13:58Z nij: It's crystal clear now. Thanks :D 2021-02-12T16:14:35Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T16:14:42Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-12T16:20:42Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-02-12T16:22:05Z tfb quit 2021-02-12T16:24:57Z CrazyPython quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T16:27:05Z lisp-machine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T16:36:00Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-02-12T16:39:01Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-12T16:42:03Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-12T16:43:36Z frgo quit 2021-02-12T16:44:56Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-12T16:47:01Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-12T16:48:42Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-12T16:49:08Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-02-12T16:53:23Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T16:53:55Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-12T17:03:28Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-02-12T17:10:36Z lisp-machine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T17:14:12Z contrapunctus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-12T17:17:59Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T17:18:36Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-12T17:27:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T17:29:22Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-12T17:32:18Z dunk joined #lisp 2021-02-12T17:36:50Z msk joined #lisp 2021-02-12T17:37:46Z cage_: Hi! I do not know if the people (maybe a single person? I do not know who they are) that made available a lot of CL libraries on guix are here but if yes i would like to make a big thanks for their efforts! :) 2021-02-12T17:39:38Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-12T17:40:46Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-12T17:42:54Z nij: cage_ guixers don't use #'ql:quickload? 2021-02-12T17:43:16Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-12T17:43:25Z Inline: let over lambda 2021-02-12T17:43:40Z Inline: is a ..... 2021-02-12T17:43:46Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2021-02-12T17:43:48Z Inline: closure 2021-02-12T17:44:05Z cage_: nij, i can not answer because i am just trying to learng guix but seems to me that if a library is available on guix quicklisp is not necessary 2021-02-12T17:44:20Z nij: gasp 2021-02-12T17:44:51Z cage_: but of course not all the libraries tha are available from quicklist are in guix and moreover the goal of the two program is different 2021-02-12T17:44:58Z X-Scale` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-12T17:45:37Z Steeve joined #lisp 2021-02-12T17:46:21Z cage_: i do not think guix is (or could be in the future) a replacement for quicklisp, but i am just starting studing guix so i can be easly wrong 2021-02-12T17:46:22Z nij: yeah make sense.. quicklisp would be redundent if guix strive 2021-02-12T17:46:44Z nij: guix aims (partly) at reproducible package management 2021-02-12T17:47:01Z nij: it makes sense.. 2021-02-12T17:47:56Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-12T17:48:44Z cage_: Inline, is your sentence a question? 2021-02-12T17:49:59Z Inline: no a statement 2021-02-12T17:50:00Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-12T17:50:17Z cage_: Inline, OK! ;-) 2021-02-12T17:50:59Z rogersm: Does anyone has experience with accessing sqlite3 db using cl-sync? 2021-02-12T17:52:09Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T17:52:49Z cage_: rogersm, sorry i can not help, never used this library 2021-02-12T17:53:44Z cage_: cl-sync :) 2021-02-12T17:53:54Z rogersm: thx 2021-02-12T17:54:02Z cage_: no problem 2021-02-12T17:54:21Z cage_: are you having trouble with it? 2021-02-12T17:55:40Z rogersm: no, I just want to know the responsiveness of it. sqlite3 with clsql is a blocking lib, but I don't know if performance is too impacted 2021-02-12T17:56:38Z cage_: sorry maybe i misunderstood are you referring to cl-async or cl-sync 2021-02-12T17:56:47Z cage_: because both exists :) 2021-02-12T17:57:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T17:57:47Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T17:59:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T18:00:49Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:02:15Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:05:28Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T18:06:22Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:06:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T18:06:47Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:07:09Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T18:08:33Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:08:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T18:09:17Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-12T18:09:22Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-12T18:10:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:11:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T18:12:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:14:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T18:14:32Z cage_: rogersm, FWIW i used cl-sqlite for a web application using hunchentoot and the performance was very good reading and acceptable when writing 2021-02-12T18:14:48Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:19:17Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T18:20:11Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:22:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T18:23:06Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:24:43Z Nilby: I find the performance sqlite3 with clsql very acceptable, but I haven't used it for big databases, or high throughput. 2021-02-12T18:24:43Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T18:24:56Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:30:42Z cage_: i used it also in a desktop application (again, cl-sqlite) and works just fine but no concurrent access is involved in this case 2021-02-12T18:30:59Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:33:17Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:34:16Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-12T18:35:25Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:35:57Z nckx joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:37:41Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:38:33Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-12T18:39:53Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-12T18:39:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T18:40:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:40:26Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:41:16Z rogersm: thanks 2021-02-12T18:41:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T18:41:40Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:41:44Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T18:43:48Z amb007 quit (Read 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error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T19:10:09Z yottabyte: can't get this to work on windows still :< https://github.com/fukamachi/cl-dbi 2021-02-12T19:10:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T19:11:00Z charles` left #lisp 2021-02-12T19:11:57Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T19:11:57Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T19:13:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T19:14:17Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T19:14:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T19:17:50Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T19:17:57Z lowryder_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T19:19:56Z lowryder_ joined #lisp 2021-02-12T19:28:10Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-02-12T19:29:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T19:30:40Z yottabyte: using https://github.com/qitab/qmynd for now, which works 2021-02-12T19:31:29Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-12T19:37:34Z varjag joined #lisp 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I thought it would just be 3 max, 1 more than "hi" for the carriage return ^M. really I just want to capture the output "hi" 2021-02-12T20:31:18Z mfiano: Becuase there are 4 arguments? 2021-02-12T20:32:26Z yottabyte: oh... I was trying to get the output of "echo hi" as the result 2021-02-12T20:32:51Z mfiano: Wait no 2021-02-12T20:33:24Z mfiano: That is getting the length of the first of 3 return values 2021-02-12T20:34:24Z yottabyte: so I want the return value to be "hi", how do I do that? 2021-02-12T20:35:45Z yottabyte: (length "hi") => 2, that's what I was expecting 2021-02-12T20:36:55Z anunnaki is now known as KeyboardWorrier 2021-02-12T20:37:15Z Josh_2: yottabyte: there is a newline thats why 2021-02-12T20:37:17Z mfiano: The newline is included because it :output '(:string :stripped t) it looks like 2021-02-12T20:37:33Z phoe: yottabyte: what is your OS? 2021-02-12T20:37:50Z mfiano: Sorry half finished thought there. But just pass :output '(:string :stripped t) it looks like 2021-02-12T20:37:51Z phoe: sounds like windows if you have CRLF line endings 2021-02-12T20:38:03Z mfiano: It happens on Linux too 2021-02-12T20:38:10Z mfiano: You need that special output form 2021-02-12T20:38:16Z phoe: yes, but without the CR 2021-02-12T20:39:30Z yottabyte: oh yeah, I'm on windows. it does 2 extra characters 2021-02-12T20:39:55Z mfiano: (length (uiop:run-program "echo hi" :output '(:string :stripped t))) ; => 2 2021-02-12T20:39:58Z yottabyte: that worked, thanks 2021-02-12T20:43:32Z Nilby` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T20:43:43Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T20:45:36Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2021-02-12T20:47:00Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-12T20:49:17Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-12T20:53:40Z xlarsx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-12T20:56:58Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T20:58:55Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2021-02-12T21:00:08Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-12T21:02:28Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T21:02:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T21:09:18Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-02-12T21:12:00Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-12T21:12:11Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-12T21:13:16Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-12T21:15:33Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T21:15:35Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-12T21:15:49Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-12T21:16:19Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T21:16:25Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T21:19:50Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T21:20:05Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T21:21:50Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-12T21:22:08Z yottabyte: does anyone know how to get Bearer authorization working with dexador? 2021-02-12T21:24:27Z equwal: Is something wrong with drakma now? 2021-02-12T21:25:15Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-12T21:25:38Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-12T21:27:35Z equwal: Huh, I guess this is actually an old project. Are people using it? 2021-02-12T21:28:44Z phoe: yes, drakma is pretty stable all in all! 2021-02-12T21:28:59Z sjl: I use Drakma a lot. It works well. 2021-02-12T21:31:10Z equwal: Sorry, my question was referring to this dexador program, I hadn't heard of it, I always used drakma 2021-02-12T21:31:11Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-12T21:32:04Z equwal: Apparently dexador 'is aimed at replacing drakma' but I wonder why one would want that. 2021-02-12T21:44:41Z mfiano: People do like speed, it's first reason. 2021-02-12T21:44:54Z andreyorst[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T21:47:19Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T21:48:06Z equwal: wow, that's actually a pretty big difference. https://github.com/fukamachi/dexador#benchmark 2021-02-12T21:48:34Z Josh_2: I think that Drakma can reuse connections as well 2021-02-12T21:50:29Z Josh_2: Been banging my head against the wall wondering why my code doesn't behave as expected, turns out trivial-timeout isn't working 2021-02-12T21:50:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T21:50:49Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T21:54:57Z Josh_2: Doesn't seem to me that BT wraps the timeout conditions as the condition signalled is sb-ext:timeout :( 2021-02-12T21:56:59Z equwal: Why are you using a project that was last updated in 2013? n 2021-02-12T21:57:55Z Josh_2: Well the current CL standard is from 1994 2021-02-12T21:58:24Z Josh_2: I guess timers are just implementation dependent hence the library 2021-02-12T21:58:50Z recalloc: fukamachi pulled my request. nice! 2021-02-12T21:59:05Z equwal: Well, just don't expect it to work magically with SBCL and BT if it hasn't been updated for 8 years. Maybe make a fork? 2021-02-12T22:00:08Z equwal: The standard doesn't control threads, correct. 2021-02-12T22:00:42Z equwal: That is why BT is a 'lowest common denominator' wrapper 2021-02-12T22:01:07Z Josh_2: to be fair a fork would just depend on BT, because BT controls the version, it would just mean finding the condition signalled on each implementation 2021-02-12T22:04:50Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T22:05:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T22:05:54Z equwal: If you do it, I believe in you. 2021-02-12T22:09:47Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T22:10:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T22:14:39Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-12T22:21:56Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-12T22:33:29Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-12T22:33:55Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T22:37:40Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T22:37:56Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-12T22:38:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T22:39:04Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-12T22:40:35Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-12T22:40:50Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-02-12T22:41:37Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-12T22:41:57Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-12T22:43:25Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-12T22:45:33Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-12T22:51:20Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-12T22:53:19Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-12T22:54:25Z scymtym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T22:54:26Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-02-12T22:55:05Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-02-12T22:55:40Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-12T22:56:30Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-12T23:02:49Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-12T23:03:28Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T23:04:04Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-12T23:04:47Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-12T23:07:09Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-12T23:09:28Z xlarsx quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-12T23:10:02Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-12T23:12:10Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-12T23:17:01Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-12T23:17:30Z awb999 joined #lisp 2021-02-12T23:19:22Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-12T23:21:45Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-12T23:24:04Z hendursaga: For the ~r directive for format, how might I go about outputting it in another language? 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2021-02-13T00:48:45Z xlarsx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T00:50:12Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-13T00:50:20Z Alfr: There's ~A with an appropriate string or ~/func-name/, but I think you'll have to write that translation yourself. 2021-02-13T01:08:19Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-13T01:09:33Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T01:17:42Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T01:22:16Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T01:23:39Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-02-13T01:23:59Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-13T01:26:21Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T01:30:50Z matthewcroughan joined #lisp 2021-02-13T01:31:46Z matthewcroughan: Hey! I'm very new to lisp, I'm trying to demonstrate something to a friend using MQTT. There is a library for it here, but I just can't find any examples that lead me to success in loading it. https://github.com/ivan4th/cl-mqtt 2021-02-13T01:32:27Z matthewcroughan: (ql:quickload 'cl-async-repl) (ql:quickload 'swank) (as-repl:start-async-repl) leads to the following error 2021-02-13T01:32:30Z matthewcroughan: `Cannot initialize *SLIME-REPL-EVAL-HOOKS*, use (eval-in-gui-thread ...) form.` 2021-02-13T01:38:33Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-13T01:38:57Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T01:39:07Z Xach has never tried those libraries 2021-02-13T01:44:24Z cross joined #lisp 2021-02-13T01:45:16Z matthewcroughan: Xach: well, I basically just wanna send some mqtt packets over the network :p 2021-02-13T01:45:39Z matthewcroughan: I've got the repos cloned, just wondering how I would load them and "run" the lisp files. 2021-02-13T01:46:33Z Xach: matthewcroughan: if i were just starting, i think i would avoid something that uses event loops, threads, and foreign libraries. 2021-02-13T01:46:57Z Xach: (i am not just starting and i still avoid those things, when i can help it, but if you have to use them, you have to use them) 2021-02-13T01:46:59Z matthewcroughan: Xach: I just want to submit some MQTT packets, using avail libraries, just because I want to prove to my friend it's possible. 2021-02-13T01:47:11Z matthewcroughan: Everything here is pure lisp, if we can't load that we're screwed ;P 2021-02-13T01:47:53Z Xach: oh, that's cool. i had the wrong impression about FFI, then. 2021-02-13T01:50:13Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-13T01:52:57Z Josh_2: Well cl-async-repl isn't pure list 2021-02-13T01:52:59Z Josh_2: lisp* 2021-02-13T01:53:22Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T01:53:41Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-13T01:56:40Z Josh_2: I don't know if the library still works It's 6 years old and has dependencies that don't exist in QL 2021-02-13T01:59:26Z Josh_2: matthewcroughan: http://finisterra.motd.org/?p=237 2021-02-13T02:02:02Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:02:09Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: that doesn't tell me anything about using sbcl/clisp on the command line to actually run that code, that's just code. 2021-02-13T02:02:11Z matthewcroughan: How can I use it? 2021-02-13T02:07:04Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T02:09:29Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: If I put that example into a file called example.lisp and then `sbcl --load example.lisp` it fails at many points 2021-02-13T02:09:38Z matthewcroughan: Don't know how to REQUIRE ABCL-CONTRIB. 2021-02-13T02:11:41Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: why is this library not reproducible? Is there no build system to produce it? 2021-02-13T02:11:45Z matthewcroughan: you seen nix, on that topic? 2021-02-13T02:13:12Z Josh_2: For that one you need to be using ABCL, not SBCL 2021-02-13T02:14:00Z Josh_2: ABCL is built on JVM so it can call java libraries, so you can use the Java version of MQTT 2021-02-13T02:16:58Z matthewcroughan: Interesting 2021-02-13T02:18:38Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:19:07Z Josh_2: also you don't want to be just running code on the command line 2021-02-13T02:19:20Z Josh_2: you should be using a repl 2021-02-13T02:19:57Z arpunk joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:20:05Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T02:20:28Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: Error loading /home/matthew/git/clisp/abcl-mqtt.lisp at line 114 (offset 4978) 2021-02-13T02:20:28Z matthewcroughan: #: Debugger invoked on condition of type JAVA-EXCEPTION 2021-02-13T02:20:28Z matthewcroughan: Java exception 'java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: MQTTCONNECTOPTIONS'. 2021-02-13T02:20:31Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:20:38Z Josh_2: well yeh 2021-02-13T02:20:48Z matthewcroughan: so how would I run that? :p 2021-02-13T02:20:50Z arpunk joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:20:50Z Josh_2: you are trying to do something you can only do with ABCL in Clisp 2021-02-13T02:21:01Z matthewcroughan: no, I am not, I don't believe. 2021-02-13T02:21:05Z matthewcroughan: `abcl --load abcl-mqtt.lisp ` 2021-02-13T02:21:11Z Josh_2: oh right 2021-02-13T02:21:14Z Josh_2: sorry 2021-02-13T02:21:39Z Josh_2: well unfortunately for you I don't know anything about how Java works, maybe you have to go find that library from some place? 2021-02-13T02:21:55Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:23:04Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: LOL https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/armedbear-devel/2013-June/002959.html 2021-02-13T02:23:28Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T02:24:29Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T02:25:04Z arpunk joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:25:54Z arpunk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T02:25:57Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: what is the "classpath"? 2021-02-13T02:26:13Z Josh_2: Idk 2021-02-13T02:26:13Z matthewcroughan: the comments state there's a JAR file that needs to be in the classpath. 2021-02-13T02:26:22Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-13T02:27:34Z matthewcroughan: is the guy who wrote this here? :D 2021-02-13T02:28:55Z arpunk joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:29:18Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T02:29:52Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-13T02:30:05Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T02:30:34Z arpunk joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:31:50Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T02:35:35Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:36:38Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:37:39Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:37:53Z matthewcroughan: can anybody save me? 2021-02-13T02:39:55Z matthewcroughan: alandipert: You look knowledgable, I just went searching for answers and found this post. https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/676cse/watson_iot_with_common_lisp/ 2021-02-13T02:40:18Z matthewcroughan: I ended up seeing your face on a 6 day old video "Common Lisp for the Curious Clojurian" 2021-02-13T02:40:54Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:42:09Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-13T02:42:50Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-13T02:43:07Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:45:12Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:52:41Z matthewcroughan: can anyone tell me how to load libraries on the filesystem? lol 2021-02-13T02:54:20Z Josh_2: load? 2021-02-13T02:54:39Z alandipert: matthewcroughan check out https://github.com/armedbear/abcl/tree/master/contrib/abcl-asdf#example-2 2021-02-13T02:54:53Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: load and then what? 2021-02-13T02:54:58Z matthewcroughan: how do I give it a path, what's the syntax? 2021-02-13T02:55:33Z matthewcroughan: alandipert: I really want to use cl-mqtt, since cl-async loads perfectly fine 2021-02-13T02:55:53Z matthewcroughan: I just can't figure out how to actually load that library from my disk, such that I can start utilising it. 2021-02-13T02:55:58Z alandipert: oh, then i'm of no help, sorry 2021-02-13T02:56:05Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:56:15Z matthewcroughan: alandipert: If you can help with ABCL, I'm all ears ;P 2021-02-13T02:56:20Z Josh_2: You put it in you quicklisp/local-projects folder and then do (ql:quickload :) 2021-02-13T02:56:39Z Josh_2: thats how you load lisp libraries anyway 2021-02-13T02:56:45Z Josh_2: or you can use asdf 2021-02-13T02:56:49Z matthewcroughan: But no readme on earth will suggest this to you 2021-02-13T02:57:00Z matthewcroughan: even that abcl-asdf assumes you have knowledge, it doesn't even tell you to clone the project 2021-02-13T02:57:56Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-13T02:58:14Z matthewcroughan: Right, so I have cloned the project to my CD 2021-02-13T02:58:18Z matthewcroughan: `git clone https://github.com/armedbear/abcl.git` 2021-02-13T02:58:32Z Josh_2: wat 2021-02-13T02:58:33Z matthewcroughan: I am now in that repo's root, and I have ran `abcl` 2021-02-13T02:58:42Z Josh_2: you are cloning all of abcl? 2021-02-13T02:58:50Z matthewcroughan: yes 2021-02-13T02:59:25Z matthewcroughan: my pwd is `/home/matthew/git/clisp/abcl/contrib/abcl-asdf` 2021-02-13T02:59:45Z matthewcroughan: I've ran `abcl` in that directory, my prompt is now `CL-USER(1):` 2021-02-13T03:00:32Z Josh_2: thats a good prompt 2021-02-13T03:00:38Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T03:00:43Z matthewcroughan: running the `(require :abcl-asdf)` and other require cmds worked fine 2021-02-13T03:00:46Z Josh_2: did you ever lookup how to get construct a proper Lisp environment? 2021-02-13T03:01:07Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: I do not know what that means. I'm just using the nix package for it which constructs a stdenv. 2021-02-13T03:01:13Z Josh_2: yikes 2021-02-13T03:01:22Z matthewcroughan: Please, do not make assumptions. Just try to help me <3 2021-02-13T03:01:32Z matthewcroughan: I just want to load some code ;D 2021-02-13T03:01:46Z Josh_2: Do you use vim/emacs? 2021-02-13T03:01:48Z matthewcroughan: yes 2021-02-13T03:01:51Z Josh_2: which one? 2021-02-13T03:01:54Z matthewcroughan: vim 2021-02-13T03:02:04Z Josh_2: https://github.com/vlime/vlime 2021-02-13T03:02:35Z matthewcroughan: I would really like to learn to load some code in the repl before grabbing that. 2021-02-13T03:03:13Z waleee-cl: go to the directory, start your repl, (load "___.lisp")? 2021-02-13T03:03:23Z Josh_2: Well thats a development environment that allows you do interact with a lisp image in a nice way 2021-02-13T03:03:24Z waleee-cl: recommend to use rlwrap 2021-02-13T03:04:50Z matthewcroughan: I just want to load cl-mqtt, I have cloned it. 2021-02-13T03:04:59Z matthewcroughan: https://github.com/ivan4th/cl-mqtt 2021-02-13T03:05:14Z matthewcroughan: This is a collection of *.lisp files, how do I utilise them at all? 2021-02-13T03:05:20Z Josh_2: cl-mqtt doesn't work 2021-02-13T03:05:22Z Josh_2: It's bitrotted 2021-02-13T03:05:41Z matthewcroughan: That is not substantiated, you have not tried it. 2021-02-13T03:05:45Z Josh_2: Yes I have 2021-02-13T03:05:54Z matthewcroughan: Why is it not reproducible? 2021-02-13T03:06:22Z Josh_2: I cloned it into quicklisp/local-projects ran (ql:quickload :cl-mqtt) and it didn't work 2021-02-13T03:06:35Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/Lz08XjW.png 2021-02-13T03:06:45Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: There is a comment from the author here. https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/676cse/watson_iot_with_common_lisp/ 2021-02-13T03:06:49Z matthewcroughan: >If anyone's interested I've wrote an MQTT client implementation in CL some time ago that doesn't need Java. It uses cl-async. Well, it probably has some bugs, and I didn't update it in a while, but it works most of the time from my experience 2021-02-13T03:07:50Z Josh_2: Do you have quicklisp installed? 2021-02-13T03:08:14Z matthewcroughan: yes, and in there I have: 2021-02-13T03:08:15Z matthewcroughan: asdf.lisp dists quicklisp tmp 2021-02-13T03:08:15Z matthewcroughan: client-info.sexp local-projects setup.lisp 2021-02-13T03:08:40Z Josh_2: right well clone cl-mqtt into local-projects, open your lisp image and run (ql:quickload :cl-mqtt) 2021-02-13T03:09:19Z matthewcroughan: ((LABELS QUICKLISP-CLIENT::RECURSE :IN QUICKLISP-CLIENT::COMPUTE-LOAD-STRATEGY) "i4-diet-utils") 2021-02-13T03:09:28Z matthewcroughan: so I wonder what i4-diet-utils is 2021-02-13T03:09:41Z matthewcroughan: it comes from his repos 2021-02-13T03:09:43Z matthewcroughan: https://github.com/ivan4th/i4-diet-utils 2021-02-13T03:10:16Z Josh_2: clone that into local-projects as well 2021-02-13T03:10:19Z matthewcroughan: cl-mqtt/package.lisp: (:use :cl :alexandria :iterate :i4-diet-utils) 2021-02-13T03:11:19Z matthewcroughan: seems to work, hah 2021-02-13T03:11:22Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T03:11:26Z matthewcroughan: so much for bitrot mr assumption ;) 2021-02-13T03:11:30Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-13T03:11:32Z matthewcroughan: spectacular 2021-02-13T03:11:40Z Josh_2: well It's good it works 2021-02-13T03:11:45Z matthewcroughan: now to try some code 2021-02-13T03:12:32Z Josh_2: Now would be the time to install a good development environment 2021-02-13T03:12:43Z matthewcroughan: It's a one-off. 2021-02-13T03:12:52Z Josh_2: Shame 2021-02-13T03:12:53Z matthewcroughan: besides, nix gave me one 2021-02-13T03:13:04Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T03:13:30Z matthewcroughan: look into nix and what it does, put biases to one side and try nix-shell for something. 2021-02-13T03:13:43Z Josh_2: why are you making such an effort for a one off? 2021-02-13T03:13:50Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: fun. 2021-02-13T03:14:09Z Josh_2: what is there to showoff in just running some random library? 2021-02-13T03:14:17Z matthewcroughan: turning a light on and off with lisp 2021-02-13T03:14:35Z Josh_2: okay fair enough 2021-02-13T03:14:38Z matthewcroughan: there's a guy here learning lisp and saying it's superior for everything, so I'm challenging my self to do what I did with bash in 1 minute ;D 2021-02-13T03:14:42Z matthewcroughan: In lisp* 2021-02-13T03:15:02Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T03:15:16Z Josh_2: surely you would achieve that faster in bash because you understand bash better? 2021-02-13T03:15:46Z Josh_2: Also your mate is correct 2021-02-13T03:15:48Z Josh_2: ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ 2021-02-13T03:16:31Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: I already achieved it in bash, now I've just spent 2-3 hrs trying to do it in Lisp for fun 2021-02-13T03:16:56Z Josh_2: lul 2021-02-13T03:17:59Z Josh_2: Does your friend come to this IRC channel? 2021-02-13T03:18:06Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-13T03:18:50Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: nope, he's just a streamer 2021-02-13T03:18:56Z matthewcroughan: https://www.twitch.tv/mr_bournbastic 2021-02-13T03:19:01Z matthewcroughan: he just plays chess lol 2021-02-13T03:19:35Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T03:20:01Z matthewcroughan: this is his very first exposure to programming, we just gave him a book about lisp called "Common Lisp; A gentle introduction to symbolic computation" 2021-02-13T03:20:10Z Josh_2: Yes thats a good book 2021-02-13T03:20:14Z Josh_2: that was my first programming book 2021-02-13T03:21:54Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: he's asking for further recommendations after this book, got any? 2021-02-13T03:22:20Z Josh_2: Practical Common Lisp 2021-02-13T03:22:24Z waleee-cl: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ , https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp 2021-02-13T03:22:28Z Josh_2: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2021-02-13T03:22:51Z Sheilong quit 2021-02-13T03:23:19Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-13T03:23:52Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: Weird, so I can define the first func from that guy's readme on cl-mqtt 2021-02-13T03:23:56Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T03:24:10Z matthewcroughan: You can watch my terminal here and see more context 2021-02-13T03:24:13Z matthewcroughan: ssh ro-pEHBuqtMKQYsugVjnNb4yHqXN@lon1.tmate.io 2021-02-13T03:24:23Z matthewcroughan: or a web session if you prefer https://tmate.io/t/ro-pEHBuqtMKQYsugVjnNb4yHqXN 2021-02-13T03:25:14Z matthewcroughan: It returns TEST-IT as you can hopefully see 2021-02-13T03:25:17Z Josh_2: Ye 2021-02-13T03:25:32Z matthewcroughan: I now expect to be able to use it 2021-02-13T03:25:38Z Josh_2: Now you just run (test-it ) 2021-02-13T03:26:01Z matthewcroughan: what does it mean to have no output? 2021-02-13T03:26:11Z Josh_2: well it might be a thread in the background' 2021-02-13T03:26:22Z Josh_2: oh right It's not 2021-02-13T03:26:29Z matthewcroughan: but there is no `(as-repl:start-async-repl)` 2021-02-13T03:26:33Z matthewcroughan: we haven't started anthing 2021-02-13T03:27:11Z matthewcroughan: I am running a broker on the network that I can do `mosquitto_pub -h -t -m 'message' 2021-02-13T03:27:32Z matthewcroughan: I expect `(test-it "localhost" 1883)` to submit messages, wondering if this is not the case, and if this is in fact a broker :D 2021-02-13T03:28:06Z Josh_2: well It's subscribing and the publishing 2021-02-13T03:28:36Z Josh_2: if you subscribe with another client do you see anything sent on those topics? 2021-02-13T03:28:42Z matthewcroughan: yup 2021-02-13T03:28:47Z matthewcroughan: I'll show you 2021-02-13T03:28:50Z Josh_2: so It's working? 2021-02-13T03:29:01Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-13T03:29:04Z matthewcroughan: you're still in the ssh session right? 2021-02-13T03:29:07Z Josh_2: yes 2021-02-13T03:29:55Z matthewcroughan: no message, as can be seen :D 2021-02-13T03:30:08Z Josh_2: but the lisp code is only publishing 2021-02-13T03:30:24Z Josh_2: to topics like /a/b 2021-02-13T03:30:34Z matthewcroughan: yes, and my command is listening to *everything* 2021-02-13T03:30:37Z matthewcroughan: -t '#' 2021-02-13T03:30:37Z Josh_2: oh right 2021-02-13T03:31:06Z matthewcroughan: wled/2199a4, if I sent a message like `-m "OFF"` it would turn the light here off. 2021-02-13T03:31:11Z Josh_2: well I don't know then 2021-02-13T03:31:37Z matthewcroughan: maybe it needs a message argument, but that was defined in the function `test-it` 2021-02-13T03:31:54Z matthewcroughan: (mqtt:publish conn "/a/b" "whatever1") 2021-02-13T03:32:59Z matthewcroughan: ah yes, this message again 2021-02-13T03:33:05Z matthewcroughan: says it can't work because of some gui library LOL 2021-02-13T03:33:13Z matthewcroughan: source: (ERROR "Cannot initialize *SLIME-REPL-EVAL-HOOKS*, ~ 2021-02-13T03:33:30Z Josh_2: slime is the primary means of interacting with a lisp image 2021-02-13T03:33:40Z Josh_2: It's not a gui library 2021-02-13T03:33:45Z matthewcroughan: `use (eval-in-gui-thread ...) form.")` 2021-02-13T03:33:48Z matthewcroughan: what does this mean then? 2021-02-13T03:34:10Z Josh_2: if you install vlime and run your lisp image from that you won't have that problem 2021-02-13T03:34:37Z Josh_2: because vlime will use slime to communicate with the lisp image 2021-02-13T03:35:52Z Josh_2: Just typing instructions directly into the SBCL image at terminal is a dreadful way to interact with a lisp image 2021-02-13T03:36:01Z matthewcroughan: what is the "image"? 2021-02-13T03:36:14Z Josh_2: Common Lisp is an image based programming language, like smalltalk 2021-02-13T03:36:25Z matthewcroughan: so is the "image" the .lisp file? 2021-02-13T03:36:30Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-13T03:36:31Z Josh_2: http://wiki.c2.com/?ImageBasedLanguage 2021-02-13T03:37:32Z matthewcroughan: right.. 2021-02-13T03:37:35Z matthewcroughan: let's try vlime 2021-02-13T03:38:09Z Josh_2: I hope your friend has been learning CL using either Emacs or Vim 2021-02-13T03:38:17Z matthewcroughan: emacs 2021-02-13T03:38:27Z Josh_2: and hes been using slime with emacs? 2021-02-13T03:38:47Z matthewcroughan: nope, unsure what his setup is 2021-02-13T03:38:55Z matthewcroughan: I gave him the jupyter clisp kernel actually 2021-02-13T03:39:10Z matthewcroughan: v 2021-02-13T03:39:12Z matthewcroughan: https://github.com/yitzchak/common-lisp-jupyter 2021-02-13T03:39:26Z waleee-cl: out of curiosity why did you start with clisp? 2021-02-13T03:39:52Z matthewcroughan: that's just what happens when you google lisp. 2021-02-13T03:40:00Z matthewcroughan: I had no idea about these sbcl/abcl/everythings 2021-02-13T03:40:02Z waleee-cl: for you possibly 2021-02-13T03:40:18Z matthewcroughan: reminds me of Forth, how there are many variations upon forth, there are many forhts. 2021-02-13T03:40:19Z Josh_2: they are different distributions of Common Lisp 2021-02-13T03:40:19Z matthewcroughan: forths* 2021-02-13T03:40:37Z Josh_2: like Gentoo/Fedora/Ubuntu are different distributions of Linux etc 2021-02-13T03:41:01Z matthewcroughan: I don't want a development environment. I want to submit some bytes via UDP to an ip address. 2021-02-13T03:41:09Z matthewcroughan: If I can't do that in a lisp repl, what is it good for? :D 2021-02-13T03:41:50Z matthewcroughan: I will use vlime and perhaps even package it if I take a liking to lisp, but this can't be the way. 2021-02-13T03:42:01Z waleee-cl: matthewcroughan: you do realize that it's some work in most full featured programming languages? 2021-02-13T03:42:34Z matthewcroughan: No, it's not. You can just bang it out from memory. The MQTT protocol isn't complex, sure you won't implement the WHOLE thing. 2021-02-13T03:42:35Z waleee-cl: (eg python) 2021-02-13T03:43:14Z matthewcroughan: you could craft the packet necessary to submit to an ip address to contain bytes that resolve to the string "NO" in MQTT, then send it over UDP, in no time. 2021-02-13T03:43:31Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-02-13T03:43:32Z Josh_2: yes you could do that in no time in CL 2021-02-13T03:43:50Z matthewcroughan: well how can we ping? 2021-02-13T03:43:57Z matthewcroughan: I can't really get any of the basic examples working. 2021-02-13T03:44:36Z Josh_2: Make sure to tell your buddy to check out portacle 2021-02-13T03:44:41Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-13T03:44:42Z matthewcroughan: https://orthecreedence.github.io/cl-async/benchmarks 2021-02-13T03:46:03Z matthewcroughan: I can't believe we were defeated. 2021-02-13T03:46:39Z Josh_2: if you know how MQTT is implemented you could just craft the packets manually 2021-02-13T03:46:54Z matthewcroughan: I sorta do, I may take some time in future. 2021-02-13T03:47:17Z matthewcroughan: I really just wanted to demonstrate that he indeed can't do certain things in LISP, because libraries don't necessarily exist for everything, because it's not "that kind" of language. 2021-02-13T03:47:27Z matthewcroughan: Because he talks as if everything is possible with LISP. 2021-02-13T03:47:33Z Josh_2: well everything is possible 2021-02-13T03:47:36Z Josh_2: It's turing complete 2021-02-13T03:47:43Z matthewcroughan: Sure, I just mean within my lifespan. 2021-02-13T03:47:56Z matthewcroughan: Microsoft Powerpoint is turing complete. 2021-02-13T03:48:13Z Josh_2: the library might not work properly but I saw someone had implemented a functioning MQTT client in Racket in 200 lines, converted that to CL wouldn't be hard 2021-02-13T03:48:29Z Josh_2: Sending data over a network isn't very hard 2021-02-13T03:48:43Z matthewcroughan: well, can you give me an example that does *anything* over the network from the sbcl repl? 2021-02-13T03:49:09Z Josh_2: well if you were using Vlime ie Vim with Slime then that communication is done over a local socket 2021-02-13T03:49:20Z Bike: sbcl comes with a bsd sockets system. 2021-02-13T03:49:38Z Josh_2: you could just (ql:quickload :dexador) (dex:get "https://google.co.uk") 2021-02-13T03:49:49Z Bike: i've never used it myself, but my understanding is it's a pretty thin wrapper over the berkeley API. 2021-02-13T03:50:04Z Bike: probably you could push bytes or whatever with that. 2021-02-13T03:50:10Z Josh_2: or just use usocket 2021-02-13T03:50:42Z contrapunctus: What's the Lispy way of determining if an optional system is available, i.e. installed? 2021-02-13T03:51:39Z Josh_2: put it in your :depends-on in your asd that way it'll be loaded when you load your library with quicklisp :P 2021-02-13T03:52:31Z contrapunctus: Josh_2: lol, _optional system_ - both systems work with as well as without each other. 2021-02-13T03:52:34Z Bike: contrapunctus: you could do (asdf:component-loaded-p (asdf:find-system whatever)) 2021-02-13T03:52:39Z matthewcroughan: (CFFI::FL-ERROR "Unable to load any of the alternatives:~% ~S" ("libssl.so.1.1" "libssl.so.1.0.2m" "libssl.so.1.0.2k" "libssl.so.1.0.2" "libssl.so.1.0.1l" "libssl.so.1.0.1j" "libssl.so.1.0.1f" "libssl.so.1.0.1e" "libssl.so.1.0.1" "libssl.so.1.0.0q" "libssl.so.1.0.0" "libssl.so.0.9.8ze" ...)) 2021-02-13T03:52:43Z Bike: oh, like that. i don't think sbcl wants to do those. 2021-02-13T03:52:47Z Bike: er, asdf. 2021-02-13T03:53:04Z contrapunctus: 🤔 2021-02-13T03:54:38Z Bike: matthewcroughan: so you don't have libssl installed? 2021-02-13T03:55:24Z Bike: seriously though, if you want to do some low level udp whatever you should probably use usocket or sb-bsd-sockets or something. you don't need SSL for that. 2021-02-13T03:56:19Z Josh_2: Usocket is reasonable, but you aren't going to get anywhere just copying and pasting commands into the sbcl terminal repl 2021-02-13T03:56:37Z Josh_2: and I really hope that isn't how your mate is interacting with his lisp image, he needs to install slime and use that 2021-02-13T03:57:41Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T04:01:25Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-13T04:01:30Z Josh_2: Hey beach 2021-02-13T04:01:55Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T04:02:01Z matthewcroughan: beach: Hi, I'm a skeleton. I've been blasted by the light of Lisp, nothing left but a stump here. 2021-02-13T04:02:02Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-13T04:03:01Z matthewcroughan: Bike: how does sbcl try to find libssl? 2021-02-13T04:03:08Z matthewcroughan: it just isn't finding it on my system. 2021-02-13T04:04:19Z matthewcroughan: do I really have to strace sbcl? ;D 2021-02-13T04:04:22Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-13T04:05:25Z cchristiansen quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-02-13T04:06:41Z matthewcroughan: no answers! aaaaa 2021-02-13T04:06:52Z matthewcroughan: http://simonsoftware.se/xkcdsw/comic.php?id=81 2021-02-13T04:07:48Z Josh_2: No answers because you are still just copying and pasting into the SBCL repl 2021-02-13T04:07:53Z Josh_2: and I have to go to sleep because It's 4am 2021-02-13T04:08:36Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: Well yeah, because I can't figure out how to load things into the repl, I just copy and paste the deffun, what's wrong with that? 2021-02-13T04:08:55Z matthewcroughan: I want to load code that other people have written so that I can execute their functions. What exactly is wrong with that? 2021-02-13T04:11:20Z Josh_2: *sigh* 2021-02-13T04:12:21Z matthewcroughan: Are you telling me this is not exactly a repl? But something strange that you're trying to get me not to use because it's a bit of a lie? 2021-02-13T04:13:00Z Josh_2: yes what you are interacting with is a repl but It's got no arms, no legs and no eyes 2021-02-13T04:13:11Z matthewcroughan: I really wish `sbcl` would find libssl.. 2021-02-13T04:13:32Z matthewcroughan: and that vlime was packaged for any distribution, at all 2021-02-13T04:14:11Z Josh_2: well emacs is the "goto" for writing Lisp, you can just install slime with elpa 2021-02-13T04:14:57Z Josh_2: But some folks use vlime 2021-02-13T04:15:19Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T04:15:31Z matthewcroughan: do I really have to worry about what text editor I'm using just for this language? 2021-02-13T04:15:36Z matthewcroughan: that is really especially screwed up 2021-02-13T04:15:46Z matthewcroughan: is it a language, or is it an operating system? 2021-02-13T04:15:55Z Josh_2: uh 2021-02-13T04:16:03Z Josh_2: uuuuh 2021-02-13T04:16:28Z matthewcroughan: No really. I'm very alienated. Why can't I just write and run lisp? 2021-02-13T04:16:32Z matthewcroughan: It's such a strange world. 2021-02-13T04:16:45Z matthewcroughan: There's so much context necessary to even "run" lisp code. 2021-02-13T04:16:49Z Josh_2: normie programming is write, execute, debug repeat 2021-02-13T04:17:10Z Josh_2: It's perfectly possible to write CL like that but you are wasting your time and missing the point 2021-02-13T04:17:10Z matthewcroughan: If you bothered to look into Nix, it's a functional language and I love it. 2021-02-13T04:17:23Z matthewcroughan: But this is something else. 2021-02-13T04:18:42Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: okay, mirror the statement. 2021-02-13T04:18:48Z matthewcroughan: "normie programming is write, execute, debug repeat" 2021-02-13T04:18:57Z matthewcroughan: "lisp programming is ... ... ... " 2021-02-13T04:19:08Z Josh_2: you are using CL like that and wondering why It's all screwy 2021-02-13T04:19:22Z matthewcroughan: sure, so what *is* the right way to use it? 2021-02-13T04:19:28Z matthewcroughan: please don't suggest a text editor change ;D 2021-02-13T04:19:43Z Josh_2: Interactively 2021-02-13T04:19:57Z matthewcroughan: please mirror the statement, "lisp programming is write ... ... " 2021-02-13T04:20:13Z matthewcroughan: if normie programming is "write, execute, debug, repeat", what is lisp? 2021-02-13T04:20:32Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T04:20:41Z Josh_2: It's incremental design where you interact with the program and modify it while it runs 2021-02-13T04:21:03Z Josh_2: you write your little algorithms, check they work, change them while the execute etc 2021-02-13T04:21:35Z Josh_2: put your pieces together, change parts in and out, inspect things in the debugger while they are being used, interact with the stack trace etc 2021-02-13T04:22:50Z matthewcroughan: yeah I did understand some of that, as the program was running if I put something on the stack it would be as if it had hit a breakpoint and I could either continue or exit 2021-02-13T04:22:56Z Josh_2: yes 2021-02-13T04:22:57Z matthewcroughan: much like forth, honestly, in some ways 2021-02-13T04:23:06Z matthewcroughan: but forth is far more intuitive than this 2021-02-13T04:23:44Z Josh_2: if you use Vlime you will be able to properly interact with it, you will be able to inspect the frames on the stack, copy the objects that were arguments to functions to your repl etc 2021-02-13T04:23:55Z Josh_2: I've never used forth so I don't have an opinion 2021-02-13T04:24:56Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T04:26:56Z matthewcroughan: Fair enough. I will experiment with it at some stage, tomorrow maybe. With a friend to hold my hand and squeeze it when I get stressed. 2021-02-13T04:28:50Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T04:28:52Z Bike: "how does sbcl try to find libssl" dlopen, same as anything else 2021-02-13T04:29:58Z matthewcroughan: Bike: not quite, I'm using nix so it's probably trying something weird. Nix usually finds these oddities. 2021-02-13T04:30:38Z matthewcroughan: So for example, Firefox/Chromium will work fine and they'll find libssl in a nix-shell, but sbcl doesn't, because some programs just work differently in a so-called "impure" way that resolve these paths strangely. 2021-02-13T04:30:56Z Josh_2: well that library is looking for certain versions 2021-02-13T04:31:01Z matthewcroughan: I'll explain it when I'm less tired :D 2021-02-13T04:35:18Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-13T04:43:43Z Bike: sbcl definitely uses dlopen. whether dlopen is doing something weird on nix i can't tell you. 2021-02-13T04:44:10Z Bike: firefox and chromium and stuff might be linked less dynamically 2021-02-13T04:44:21Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-13T04:46:32Z Bike: dynamic dependencies might not work so well with nix's whole model 2021-02-13T04:47:21Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T04:56:26Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T04:57:57Z xlarsx_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T05:00:33Z xlarsx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T05:00:57Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-13T05:02:43Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-13T05:07:18Z gioyik_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T05:09:22Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-13T05:10:12Z xlarsx_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T05:10:50Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-13T05:14:29Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T05:15:36Z xlarsx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T05:21:44Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T05:23:21Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T05:28:14Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T05:31:56Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T05:58:38Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T05:59:36Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:03:22Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-13T06:05:27Z xlarsx quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-13T06:09:38Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T06:09:54Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T06:10:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:14:07Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T06:14:38Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-13T06:14:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:14:57Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-13T06:15:31Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:17:28Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:17:57Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:21:18Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:22:33Z xlarsx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T06:24:31Z contrapunctus: Weird, I was able to load my system "foo" just fine until yesterday, and today ASDF says "package FOO-TESTS does not exist" 🤔 2021-02-13T06:25:57Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T06:26:46Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-02-13T06:28:10Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:28:10Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-02-13T06:28:10Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:28:50Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T06:37:49Z andreyorst[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:39:30Z contrapunctus: Can anyone say if there's something wrong with these system definitions? https://ix.io/2Pfb 2021-02-13T06:42:20Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:42:58Z beach: I get an error for that link. 2021-02-13T06:43:26Z beach: SSL received a record that exceeded the maximum permissible length. 2021-02-13T06:46:24Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T06:51:18Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:51:34Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T06:52:10Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T06:53:57Z contrapunctus: beach: thanks for looking. Here's another - https//:paste.debian.net/1185306 2021-02-13T06:54:13Z contrapunctus: Oh wow. https://paste.debian.net/1185306 -_- 2021-02-13T06:55:42Z beach: I see no system "foo". 2021-02-13T06:56:22Z contrapunctus: beach: "skylab" in this case 2021-02-13T06:56:47Z contrapunctus: ASDF says "package SKYLAB-TESTS does not exist" 2021-02-13T06:57:18Z beach: Well, in order to load this file, that package must exist. 2021-02-13T06:57:42Z beach: Because you have a symbol SKYLAB-TESTS:SETUP-TEST-GIT-REPO in it. 2021-02-13T06:58:37Z beach: I am betting that package is created as part of the SKYLAB/TESTS system, maybe? 2021-02-13T06:58:47Z contrapunctus: It is 2021-02-13T06:59:04Z beach: So it must exist before it can be created. 2021-02-13T07:02:11Z jedii joined #lisp 2021-02-13T07:02:27Z jedii: is there a lisp operaing system with a working web browser? 2021-02-13T07:02:32Z jedii: runs on amd64? 2021-02-13T07:02:57Z beach: contrapunctus: Do you see the problem? 2021-02-13T07:05:19Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-13T07:07:13Z beach: jedii: I think Mezzano would be the only candidate, but I don't know about web browsers. 2021-02-13T07:11:52Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-02-13T07:18:39Z lowryder_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T07:20:44Z lowryder_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T07:23:14Z beach feels ignored. 2021-02-13T07:25:02Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T07:27:11Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-02-13T07:29:17Z jedii: heh 2021-02-13T07:29:22Z jedii: I'm back 2021-02-13T07:29:30Z jedii: how about a lisp web browser 2021-02-13T07:30:15Z jedii: honeslt I think people need about 3% ofHTML 2021-02-13T07:30:24Z jedii: not sure about HTML5 2021-02-13T07:30:34Z jedii: mayben that is a new model 2021-02-13T07:33:53Z beach: There is the Closure web browser that is pure Lisp, and there is Nyxt that uses foreign-code libraries. 2021-02-13T07:34:13Z beach: But Closure has not been maintained for some time, so I don't know the state of it. 2021-02-13T07:35:33Z awb999 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-13T07:35:45Z beach: Both operating systems and web browsers are non-trivial things. 2021-02-13T07:36:13Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-13T07:36:31Z beach: Instead of a web browser, I would like to see collaborating modules for various rendering tasks. 2021-02-13T07:36:49Z beach: But that's not what you are asking, so never mind. 2021-02-13T07:37:05Z beach: contrapunctus: Did you faint? 2021-02-13T07:38:24Z beach: jedii: What is the reason for your questions? 2021-02-13T07:39:58Z andreyorst[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T07:47:16Z caef^ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T07:49:39Z jedii: I want to replace linux and firefox if possible 2021-02-13T07:51:18Z beach: We are working on it, but it will take some time. 2021-02-13T07:51:24Z beach: You can help out if you like. 2021-02-13T07:53:03Z jedii: ok 2021-02-13T07:53:20Z jedii: ive never done a browser b4 2021-02-13T07:53:59Z beach: I would do one rendering module at a time. 2021-02-13T07:56:40Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T08:03:15Z contrapunctus: beach: sort of, thanks for the pointer; I went looking at the system definitions of some libraries, and for the moment I'm thinking of putting the test-running form at the end of skylab-test.lisp itself 2021-02-13T08:03:16Z contrapunctus: ..."sort of" for "do you see the problem", not "did you faint" lol 2021-02-13T08:04:16Z beach: OK. The problem is that when the reader reads the ASDF file, it sees that symbol and tries to intern it into the package of the prefix, but the package does not exist. It's that simple. 2021-02-13T08:04:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-13T08:04:31Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-02-13T08:04:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-13T08:04:55Z beach: You can't submit a symbol with a package prefix to the reader unless the package exists. 2021-02-13T08:08:10Z Guest57554 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T08:08:21Z Guest57554: hi guys. 2021-02-13T08:08:42Z Guest57554: i am trying to get quicklisp to install clog and then just run the first demo. 2021-02-13T08:09:58Z Guest57554: i tried it on 3 different debian instances, clean sbcl / ql installs and i keep on getting feedback from the debugger that something is wrong. too noob to understand what the compiler wants, mostly i think this is an issue with quicklisp and not clog because everyone else can get clog installed just fine and then loaded just fine 2021-02-13T08:10:20Z Guest57554: i have my issue and debugger data in the following ticket: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/issues/25 2021-02-13T08:11:21Z Guest57554: if anyone has a moment to take a peek at the debugger messages and give me a hint on what to google, i would appreciate it. 2021-02-13T08:11:29Z beach: Are you sure you are supposed to do RUN-TUTORIAL? 2021-02-13T08:11:56Z Guest57554: according to the instructions on this page, apparently yes: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog 2021-02-13T08:12:15Z Guest57554: its in the first bit of that wiki page 2021-02-13T08:13:30Z pranavats: I think Quicklisp has an older version of clog. 2021-02-13T08:13:41Z beach: My guess would be that the version of Clog in Quicklisp is too old. 2021-02-13T08:13:45Z beach: Heh. 2021-02-13T08:13:46Z Guest57554: ohhhhhhhhhh ... oh! 2021-02-13T08:13:53Z Guest57554: damnit i shoudl have guessed. my thanks! 2021-02-13T08:13:59Z pranavats: In the newest version from the repo there's start-tutorial 2021-02-13T08:13:59Z beach: Sure. 2021-02-13T08:14:20Z beach: pranavats: "start" or "run"? 2021-02-13T08:14:29Z Guest57554: he even says to download via git. i'm an idiot 2021-02-13T08:14:47Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-13T08:14:58Z beach: Don't beat yourself up. 2021-02-13T08:15:09Z beach: It happens. 2021-02-13T08:15:17Z pranavats: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/01-tutorial.lisp 2021-02-13T08:15:17Z pranavats: beach: ^^ The tutorial file exports start-tutorial, I used that. 2021-02-13T08:15:28Z beach: OK. 2021-02-13T08:15:36Z beach: Just checking against the README. 2021-02-13T08:17:11Z pranavats: Here's the tutorial readme file: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/README.md 2021-02-13T08:18:10Z Guest57554: aha! 2021-02-13T08:18:17Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T08:18:20Z Guest57554: that was it. i really appreciate the heads up on that. 2021-02-13T08:19:50Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2021-02-13T08:20:32Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-13T08:20:46Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T08:22:08Z rogersm joined 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directory etc. Is there an established library for this? I'm looking at the UIOP reference, but it's not clear if it does this. 2021-02-13T09:17:48Z pve: contrapunctus: you might start with the cl:pathname-* and the *-namestring functions 2021-02-13T09:18:16Z pve: those should give you extension and directory at least 2021-02-13T09:18:30Z pve: basename too, actually 2021-02-13T09:19:45Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:20:03Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:20:34Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:20:44Z contrapunctus: pve: oh thanks, that's nice. I'll add that to the cookbook, I guess. 2021-02-13T09:23:51Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:24:00Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:24:21Z pve: your personal cookbook? 2021-02-13T09:25:34Z contrapunctus: The cl-cookbook lol 2021-02-13T09:26:05Z contrapunctus: Oh, I missed that it mentions acquiring the file extension, at least. 2021-02-13T09:26:12Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:26:38Z pve: oh ok 2021-02-13T09:27:48Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:27:54Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:30:40Z susam joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:33:08Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:34:13Z theothornhill[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:34:15Z M18WABNFN4 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:34:34Z quanta[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:34:37Z ecm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:34:46Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:36:06Z ms[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:36:44Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:41:56Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:42:06Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:42:26Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T09:42:34Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:42:35Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:42:35Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:42:35Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:42:44Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:42:45Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T09:42:56Z anotherone9999[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:43:16Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T09:43:30Z M18WABNFN4 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:43:36Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:43:38Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:44:01Z theothornhill[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-13T09:49:19Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T09:57:02Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:06:03Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-13T10:06:57Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:13:27Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:18:31Z albusp quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-13T10:24:11Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:24:53Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-13T10:24:54Z loke[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:25:04Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:26:08Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:27:07Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:27:09Z katco joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:28:03Z deselby joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:28:12Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:28:26Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:28:32Z ThaEwat joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:28:46Z adlai joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:29:01Z adlai: was it really that painful to include an implicit progn inside time !? 2021-02-13T10:29:50Z etimmons joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:30:07Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:30:11Z jdormit joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:30:33Z adlai imagines some old wise fellow cautioning against ever attempting to time more than one thing at once, lest you run foul of sequentialism versus simultaneity 2021-02-13T10:30:35Z even4void[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:31:17Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:32:40Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:34:21Z msk quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-13T10:35:16Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:35:47Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:37:08Z ecm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:37:10Z susam joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:38:05Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:38:09Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:38:39Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:39:03Z ms[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:40:41Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:41:24Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:42:35Z quanta[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:44:07Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:46:03Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T10:46:23Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:48:24Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T10:48:57Z scymtym__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T10:49:28Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:49:46Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:51:15Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T10:51:54Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:53:25Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T10:53:44Z M18WABNFN4 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:55:47Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-13T10:56:17Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:56:19Z theothornhill[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:57:04Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T10:57:11Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-13T10:58:36Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-13T11:03:45Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T11:06:17Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:06:25Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T11:06:53Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:09:39Z adlai left #lisp 2021-02-13T11:10:12Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-13T11:16:18Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:17:42Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:19:18Z dddddd quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-13T11:19:37Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:21:27Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:21:29Z alanz_: I am working through the sly manual example for snippets, and get this exception https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/SFS27lgT/ 2021-02-13T11:21:51Z alanz_: I am probably doing something simple wrong. Any hints? 2021-02-13T11:23:56Z beach: It looks like you are attempting an arithmetic operation on a list or a struct. 2021-02-13T11:24:56Z beach: alanz_: Oh, and Common Lisp does not have "exceptions". It has "conditions". The difference is very important, as phoe would tell you. 2021-02-13T11:25:21Z alanz_: sorry, I struggled with the word choice, now I know 2021-02-13T11:25:22Z frgo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-13T11:26:17Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T11:26:44Z alanz_: beach, the section in the manual is where you highlight parts of the code with "Stickers", which I presume do some sort of tracing.So it is a wrapper around the original argument. I suspect some sort of hook is not being called 2021-02-13T11:27:05Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:29:07Z beach: alanz_: You could look at the backtrace to get a better idea of what's going on. 2021-02-13T11:30:47Z alanz_: beach, thanks, this is an opportunity for me to learn, I will see what I can find 2021-02-13T11:31:41Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:31:57Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T11:32:41Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-13T11:32:45Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:35:49Z alanz_: beach, FYI, I tried to apply a sticker to a variable substition in a macro, When I removed that, it works. I wondered about it at the time. 2021-02-13T11:36:31Z beach: OK. I am not familiar with SLY, so I don't know what that means. Sorry. 2021-02-13T11:38:41Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:38:53Z alanz_: no problem. I think it is wrapping selected code with a statistics-gathering function. And that process is not able to be expanded in a macro. But I am in a happy place again, continuing the tutorial 2021-02-13T11:46:22Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:47:14Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:49:26Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-13T11:51:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T11:51:30Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:57:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-13T11:58:40Z andreyorst[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-13T12:00:42Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-13T12:02:39Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-13T12:09:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-13T12:09:58Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-13T12:11:29Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-13T12:13:25Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-13T12:13:49Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-13T12:16:45Z xlarsx quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T12:19:26Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T12:22:57Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T12:23:07Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T12:25:14Z JeromeLon joined #lisp 2021-02-13T12:28:10Z JeromeLon: Is there a way to know on which line a form was read after a load? I wrote a DSL, and I want to surface errors (and their line number) at a later analysis stage 2021-02-13T12:32:45Z edgar-rft: JeromeLon: built-in no, because Lisp reads code as "forms", meaning opening and closing parens like (...code...), it doesn't count line breaks internally 2021-02-13T12:35:54Z phoe: JeromeLon: one second 2021-02-13T12:36:24Z phoe: during macroexpansion, https://github.com/scymtym/trivial-with-current-source-form 2021-02-13T12:37:00Z phoe: I think you can save this information by macroexpanding into something that contains this data and memorizing it in your objects 2021-02-13T12:40:57Z louis771 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-02-13T12:43:33Z JeromeLon: phoe: interesting, thanks. It doesn't seem to know about line numbers, but it detects the original form indeed. 2021-02-13T12:44:06Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-02-13T12:44:53Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T12:45:06Z JeromeLon: surely the reader knows about the current line number, as the compiler does use line numbers in error messages, so if I could access it at macro expansion time, I could indeed store it somewhere 2021-02-13T12:45:50Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-13T12:47:06Z nij: Hello! If the function in a thread returns 1, how can I ask the thread to kill itself? Or should I make another thread that monitors and does the kill? 2021-02-13T12:48:56Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T12:48:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T12:49:42Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T12:50:04Z phoe: what do you mean, kill? 2021-02-13T12:50:25Z phoe: just structure the thread function in a way that if 1 is returned, then the function returns 2021-02-13T12:51:07Z phoe: or if you can't do that in an easy way, use a non-local return - either GO/RETURN-FROM if you can do that lexically, or CATCH/THROW if you really really need it 2021-02-13T12:52:24Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T12:56:47Z nij: By kill I mean destroy.. hmm.. you mean if the thread function returns correctly, then the thread terminates automatically? That make sense.. but why didn't my threads terminate themselves at midnight? 2021-02-13T12:56:59Z adlai joined #lisp 2021-02-13T12:57:43Z adlai looks, for a few deep breaths, and the "| offtopic --> #lispcafe" suffix; and then asks, 2021-02-13T12:58:13Z adlai: are toplevel macrolets containing only a single defmethod one of the roots of evil? 2021-02-13T12:58:21Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-13T12:59:15Z adlai: the only reason to kill&yank this macrolet to toplevel is to reduce column width of its body 2021-02-13T12:59:31Z nij: Ah I see.. my thread function did encounter an error, but it raises a condition. Usually, if I'm in front of my machine, I can choose manually for it to abort. But while I'm not there, it keeps staying there. 2021-02-13T13:00:07Z adlai: don't worry, eventually the power company handles those 2021-02-13T13:00:07Z nij: What should I do? Is #'ignore-errors safe to use? 2021-02-13T13:00:36Z nij: adlai: I run that every ten minutes, and they clutter my machine. Every morning it's freakin' hot. 2021-02-13T13:00:49Z nij: It will kill my machine soon if no action is taken :-( 2021-02-13T13:01:17Z carkh: easy, handle the error 2021-02-13T13:01:25Z carkh: even if it's to ignore it =) 2021-02-13T13:01:31Z adlai: in the scenario you described, ignore-errors will prevent that thread from lurking in the debugger 2021-02-13T13:01:48Z nij: lemme try it :D 2021-02-13T13:01:54Z carkh: leave a nice comment for future you 2021-02-13T13:02:09Z nij: carkh: Oh! There's #'handler-case 2021-02-13T13:02:18Z carkh: ;; i'm evil, but not quite top-level macrolet evil 2021-02-13T13:02:35Z adlai: however, you must take care that whatever form is wrapped can return NIL without the caller entering the debugger with a similar error, because then you've accomplished nothing 2021-02-13T13:03:23Z adlai: e.g., one of my favorite macros is `(or (ignore-errors ,@body) 0), it brings CL one step closer to the bastard child of Haskell and PHP 2021-02-13T13:08:26Z carkh: when i started programming i had many of those (back then) try catch (nothing) and continue, they somehow completelly disapeared fromthe code i write today 2021-02-13T13:08:54Z carkh: i think there should never be a reason to do that 2021-02-13T13:09:13Z carkh: if you can't handle the error, just let it go up the stack 2021-02-13T13:09:26Z adlai: maybe monads will help? 2021-02-13T13:09:56Z carkh: or at least log the error or something 2021-02-13T13:10:33Z adlai: oh look, I found a use for modern mode: distinguishing between "maybe monads [will help?]" and "Maybe monads [won't help!]" 2021-02-13T13:10:33Z carkh: yes well mondads can be used for that, but we don't neeed those here in CL i think ? 2021-02-13T13:10:50Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-02-13T13:11:21Z adlai: the Maybe monad is just (deftype maybe (type) `(or null ,type)) 2021-02-13T13:11:40Z adlai: and honestly, I consider it one of the worst code smells in existence 2021-02-13T13:12:30Z carkh: monads are cool for pure functional stuff 2021-02-13T13:12:49Z carkh: then again i wouldn't go purely functional with CLL 2021-02-13T13:12:53Z carkh: CL 2021-02-13T13:13:07Z Guest57554 quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-13T13:13:10Z adlai: it is a much worse root, of a much greater evil, than top-level single-form macrolets; i'd toss it somewhere around screensavers that surreptitiously test whether the user is colorblind 2021-02-13T13:13:15Z nij: i see, that's nice suggestion (the error handling part) 2021-02-13T13:13:29Z nij: (but why isn't maybe monad good @@?) 2021-02-13T13:14:15Z carkh: there was a talk from Rich Hickey about that i think 2021-02-13T13:14:15Z adlai: it's a root of evil because its use reduces the expressiveness of the type system in particular, and the code in general 2021-02-13T13:14:17Z nij: Anyway.. threads are mysterious for me. I have another mysterious thread, which doesn't come up while sbcl runs.. but it afterward shows up.. sometimes even in multiple instance. It has been eating my machine's resource secretly. 2021-02-13T13:14:50Z nij: Here is an inspection did by sly: https://bpa.st/DWGQ , and here is a report after interrupting it by #'break : https://bpa.st/2DRQ 2021-02-13T13:15:13Z adlai: consider the much better, although more complex: (defmacro define-maybe-extension (type &optional name) #|have fun!|#) 2021-02-13T13:15:42Z nij: Question is.. how do I go on and see what it really is? I asked in #clschool yesterday, and it seems that there's no way to see what the thread function is, and even the start time and end-time. 2021-02-13T13:15:55Z carkh: nij: mhh what project are working on with sound ? 2021-02-13T13:16:07Z nij: No it's just a mysterious thread. 2021-02-13T13:16:20Z nij: I don't know what it is. Now I want to know what it is.. 2021-02-13T13:17:14Z carkh: well ti's obviously sound related =) 2021-02-13T13:17:43Z nij: Can't we see more? Why by default we cannot get our hands on the thread function? 2021-02-13T13:18:48Z nij: I mean.. why isn't there #'thread-function so that (thread-function (make-thread #'func)) => #'func 2021-02-13T13:19:15Z adlai: your lisp compiler doesn't show this in the inspector? 2021-02-13T13:19:35Z nij: Show.. what ? 2021-02-13T13:19:46Z awb999 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T13:19:52Z adlai: try (mapc 'describe (bt:all-threads)) 2021-02-13T13:20:12Z adlai: it might print the fully qualified slot name of the initial function 2021-02-13T13:20:33Z adlai: along with the name of various specific ones of those functions, if they weren't anonymous 2021-02-13T13:21:00Z nij: Nope, it's given here: https://bpa.st/DWGQ 2021-02-13T13:21:41Z carkh: it has a name, maybe grep the source code ? 2021-02-13T13:22:02Z nij: Isn't that weird? I consider "initial-function", "start-time", "end-time" the basic components of a thread that should be inspectable. 2021-02-13T13:22:20Z nij: carkh: what do you mean :O ? 2021-02-13T13:22:39Z carkh: your thread is named "Mixer thread 44,100 Hz" 2021-02-13T13:22:51Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-13T13:22:57Z carkh: search yoru source code for "Mixer Thread" 2021-02-13T13:23:32Z carkh: probably in some sound related library you loaded directly or inderctly 2021-02-13T13:23:37Z carkh: indirectly 2021-02-13T13:23:43Z nij: hmm lemme see 2021-02-13T13:25:11Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T13:25:16Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T13:30:38Z contrapunctus: Any library for CL which makes paths behave like they do in the UNIX shell and in other Lisps? 🤔 The behavior has been very unpleasantly surprisingly so far. 2021-02-13T13:30:59Z nij: OH It's from a package called MIXALOT :( 2021-02-13T13:31:01Z Xach: contrapunctus: what do you mean? 2021-02-13T13:31:04Z nij: I don't even recall having it. 2021-02-13T13:31:35Z Xach: contrapunctus: what's an example of differing behavior that has unpleasantly surprised you? 2021-02-13T13:33:40Z contrapunctus: Xach: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/sRFpqjktnp/ 2021-02-13T13:35:03Z Xach: contrapunctus: *default-pathname-defaults* is the key there. 2021-02-13T13:35:07Z adlai: nij: CL threads usually have some dynamic context, too; and "time can be a disaster", so careful with that expectation 2021-02-13T13:35:45Z Xach: contrapunctus: it is much more useful than the notion of a process cwd, but it *is* different. so when i care about them staying in sync, i use something like (with-working-directory path ), which sets both the cwd and *default-pathname-defaults* 2021-02-13T13:35:57Z adlai: nij: in some implementations, you can change the binding of a special variable that another thread sees, without needing to interrupt. 2021-02-13T13:37:24Z adlai: it is arguably safer, or at least more polite, to use e.g. #'bordeaux-threads:interrupt-thread for that, so the bindings are modified by the referencing thread 2021-02-13T13:37:28Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T13:37:45Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-13T13:37:53Z nij: hmm sounds like it relates to that "functions are hard to serialize" 2021-02-13T13:37:53Z yottabyte: equwal: if memory serves, drakma doesn't work if you're using query parameters and a request body simultaneously 2021-02-13T13:38:09Z yottabyte: which is actually a problem in puri I think 2021-02-13T13:39:50Z Xach: contrapunctus: it's fair to say you don't like it, but it need not be surprising, and it isn't without its advantages. 2021-02-13T13:40:47Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T13:41:59Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-02-13T13:42:06Z villanella quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T13:43:10Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-13T13:45:24Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-02-13T13:48:16Z contrapunctus: Xach: thanks for your response, I guess I'll explore it in greater depth instead of impetuously writing a new path API as I was thinking 😄 I suppose it can be advantageous, but it was definitely "wtf" for me - completely contrary to the behavior I've come to expect in Guile, CHICKEN, or Elisp. 2021-02-13T13:50:42Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-02-13T13:51:00Z adlai wonders whether the (list* "public" "domain" paths) horseshoe increases the effectiveness of unlicensing 2021-02-13T13:53:16Z adlai also curses himself for being slightly too amnesiac with his repl history, and losing the throwaway code that was the beginnings of a "licensing paralegal" addon 2021-02-13T13:55:06Z adlai: despite being almost entirely built on top of asdf, it was aimed to exist at the level of a quicklisp addon, since asdf itself is probably too low-level to ask much beyond whether source code is loadable. 2021-02-13T13:56:11Z adlai does not, currently, recall using any symbols from outside CL and ASDF other than ql:system-apropos 2021-02-13T13:58:39Z Lycurgus: unlicensing? sounds like removing license files 2021-02-13T13:59:40Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-13T13:59:41Z Lycurgus: bold soldiering if so 2021-02-13T14:00:21Z adlai: it could be parsed thus, although there's also a license that is named "Unlicense", for cases where an author wants to explicitly designate that something is public domain 2021-02-13T14:01:24Z adlai: merely unlinking license files and deleting copyright lines can result in people wasting lots of time trying to figure out who wrote something, even when they don't intend to comply with clauses in the license 2021-02-13T14:01:24Z Lycurgus: ah 2021-02-13T14:01:29Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-13T14:01:49Z nij: Oh no.. I just upgraded sbcl system-wise, and now my wm breaks :-( 2021-02-13T14:01:50Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T14:02:16Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-13T14:02:22Z adlai: so don't recompile stumpwm every ten minutes! 2021-02-13T14:03:00Z nij: "# is a fasl file compiled with SBCL 2.1.1, and can't be loaded into SBCL 2.0.11.. 2021-02-13T14:03:38Z Lycurgus upgraded to 2.1.1 and thought it broke ql but it didn 2021-02-13T14:04:25Z adlai: it's arguably even a good idea to have separate versions of the CL implementation for something as fundamental as the window manager. I could probably brick my stumpwm install with certain updates, although it does not default to using the latest compilers unless I manually recompile. 2021-02-13T14:05:27Z adlai: nij: you're using a system-supplied stumpwm package? 2021-02-13T14:05:31Z nij: It's weird.. now I have sbcl 2.1.1.. but seems that stumpwm is trying to use 2.0.11? 2021-02-13T14:05:59Z nij: adlai: I will heavily consider keeping my own implementation after solving this disaster. 2021-02-13T14:06:02Z nij: xD 2021-02-13T14:06:34Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T14:06:36Z adlai: your stumpwm executable is still whichever compiler was used to produce that executable; if it loads libraries from /usr/lib/ ,then it should be the same version as the compiler that places those. 2021-02-13T14:08:31Z nij: I think I compiled stumpwm manually, but forgot if that's the case. At least the system-package manager doesn't register having stumpwm. 2021-02-13T14:08:37Z adlai does not recall encountering a situation where stumpwm loads ~any~ fasls 2021-02-13T14:08:41Z nij: So.. I should recompile my stumpwm? 2021-02-13T14:09:06Z nij: adlai: yeah if I keep my config empty, then nothing bad happened. 2021-02-13T14:09:21Z adlai: right now you can't use it without aligning those versions - either downgrading SBCL, or recompiling stumpwm with the newly installed compiler 2021-02-13T14:09:38Z nij: Currently I have most of them commented, except (ql:quickload '(:pac1 :pac2 ..)) 2021-02-13T14:09:52Z adlai is puzzled as to why this is necessary; the stumpwm compilation process should produce a self-contained executable 2021-02-13T14:11:28Z adlai: I recommend that you confirm that is what your build script will produce, before setting yourself up for a situation where you need to recompile the already-working program every time you update the compiler 2021-02-13T14:12:31Z adlai: e.g., SBCL has new releases each month, yet that shouldn't force you to recompile stumpwm each time 2021-02-13T14:13:19Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-13T14:16:41Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-13T14:17:06Z mfiano: Welp, optimzed CL (SBCL), is significantly faster than _heavily_ optimized C# (for this particular set of algorithms on this particular hardware). 2021-02-13T14:19:39Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-13T14:20:01Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-02-13T14:21:24Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T14:24:59Z tomaw quit (Quit: Quitting) 2021-02-13T14:25:04Z tomaw joined #lisp 2021-02-13T14:28:37Z stargazesparkle quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-02-13T14:29:53Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T14:40:44Z xlarsx joined #lisp 2021-02-13T14:43:16Z dddddd joined #lisp 2021-02-13T14:45:38Z nij: Even sly doesn't open itself correctly, it has been initiating itself for almost half an hour. 2021-02-13T14:45:49Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T14:49:28Z Josh_2: mfiano: doesn't sound like a welp to me 2021-02-13T14:50:21Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T14:50:56Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-13T14:51:18Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T14:51:44Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-13T14:52:39Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-13T14:54:25Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T14:54:33Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T15:06:09Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-13T15:07:24Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-13T15:08:12Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-13T15:08:46Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-13T15:10:43Z xlarsx quit 2021-02-13T15:16:40Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-13T15:18:58Z flip214: mfiano: please write that down somewhere and provide a link, I'd like to show people such results 2021-02-13T15:19:39Z mfiano: flip214: pent the last week implementing OpenSimplex2 noise algorithms (6 in total), here are my results: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/cf3f8fa4793a2815d3cec32b78d6fb55 2021-02-13T15:19:45Z mfiano: Spent* 2021-02-13T15:23:15Z Josh_2: Thats significant 2021-02-13T15:27:44Z caef^ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T15:30:40Z mfiano: Yeah and it could likely be a lot faster, since there are a couple that do not use simple-arrays, but simple-vectors 2021-02-13T15:30:42Z Lycurgus: C# hardly surprising;c++ woulda been 2021-02-13T15:31:09Z Lycurgus: *c/c++ 2021-02-13T15:33:40Z Lycurgus: unless 'heavily optimized' meant rewritting it for somethihng other than the .net vm 2021-02-13T15:34:53Z mfiano: Heavily optimized means constructing the algorithm, data structures, and types to satisfy the compiler. 2021-02-13T15:35:05Z Lycurgus: k 2021-02-13T15:35:16Z mfiano: I did the same for CL, so it is not a direct comparison, although it is bit-perfect with the reference implementation 2021-02-13T15:36:24Z Lycurgus: is there a CL generally held to be the best performing? 2021-02-13T15:36:42Z Lycurgus: (other than ones that compile to C) 2021-02-13T15:36:54Z mfiano: SBCL 2021-02-13T15:36:56Z Bike: among the free implementations, sbcl has the best optimizing compiler 2021-02-13T15:37:03Z Bike: does better than ecl which compiles to C 2021-02-13T15:37:12Z Lycurgus: great! 2021-02-13T15:37:14Z Bike: optimizing lisp involves different things than optimizing C 2021-02-13T15:37:41Z Lycurgus: yes that's what I made the proviso 2021-02-13T15:38:22Z edgar-rft: C is worsified Lisp :) 2021-02-13T15:38:56Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-13T15:39:10Z mfiano: Some things are faster in CL than C 2021-02-13T15:40:36Z mfiano: Look at cl-ppcre for example, that builds regexps at compile time that outperforms Perl's C implementation of a virtual machine. Also Julia is a dynamic language and holds the current record for terraflops per second on a super computing cluster. 2021-02-13T15:40:43Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T15:40:55Z Lycurgus: perl 2021-02-13T15:41:13Z mfiano: The engine is C 2021-02-13T15:41:20Z Lycurgus: how about vs the boost lib? 2021-02-13T15:42:22Z mfiano: It depends on your problem domain 2021-02-13T15:42:26Z mfiano: There is no faster language 2021-02-13T15:43:31Z Josh_2: unless you take an average speed between a variety of problem domains 2021-02-13T15:43:39Z Josh_2: then you will most likely find that python is slow 2021-02-13T15:43:57Z mfiano: and the metrics, and the hardware, and the scheduler, and the... 2021-02-13T15:44:40Z Bike: if you have an average over domains you don't have something that's as useful for evaluating how to solve a particular problem 2021-02-13T15:45:45Z Lycurgus: s/what/why/ 2021-02-13T15:46:30Z Bike: not everything needs to be put on a linear scale, you know? 2021-02-13T15:46:37Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T15:48:34Z Lycurgus: 'member function points? that used to be a thing. In practice, the labor required to get a thing done generally trumps other considerations 2021-02-13T15:48:51Z Lycurgus: with exceptions 2021-02-13T15:51:08Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-13T15:51:27Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-13T15:53:23Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T15:55:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-13T15:56:59Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T15:59:51Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-13T16:00:36Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2021-02-13T16:01:20Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:07:32Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:10:16Z thmprover: Good morning, friends 2021-02-13T16:10:25Z Josh_2: Hi 2021-02-13T16:13:36Z thmprover: Out of curiosity, has anyone written Lisp code which will emit, say, Fortran code, compile it, execute it, then use the results? That is to say, has anyone used such a strategy? 2021-02-13T16:16:39Z beach: What would the use case be? 2021-02-13T16:18:41Z heisig: thmprover: I did something like that, but with C code instead of Fortran code. I wouldn't recommend it though. 2021-02-13T16:19:27Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:20:25Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T16:21:10Z heisig: Foreign function calls and such kind of code loading are quite the pain. I'd recommend generating Lisp code and using CL:COMPILE instead. 2021-02-13T16:23:02Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-02-13T16:23:29Z beach: heisig: I didn't get the impression that FFI was involved in the suggestion. 2021-02-13T16:24:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T16:24:11Z Nilby: beach: I imagine the use case is being be physicist and it's not accepted "proof" for publication if it doesn't use the old fortan math code that nobody understands. 2021-02-13T16:24:27Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:24:54Z beach: Hmm. 2021-02-13T16:24:58Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T16:25:42Z thmprover: beach: I'm working on some climate modeling, and there are a number of variations of a model (a family of families of models) I'd like to investigate, and I may delegate a lot of the work to pre-existing Fortran libraries. 2021-02-13T16:26:09Z beach: thmprover: So why is Common Lisp involved? 2021-02-13T16:26:12Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:26:12Z thmprover: heisig: interesting to know FFI is tedious, but I was thinking of stand-alone programs. 2021-02-13T16:26:14Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:27:19Z thmprover: beach: Oh, I've written a lot of CL code already for related computations, and I'm using the results later on in my CL code (or, I would like to) 2021-02-13T16:27:31Z Nilby: Unfortunately Lisp math gets more accurate results, with rationals, contaigin, bignums, etc., so it's wrong. 2021-02-13T16:27:40Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:27:40Z rogersm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T16:29:24Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:29:57Z Nilby: And unlike CS, other sciences doesn't ususally give you much credit for the cool new program that did the maths. 2021-02-13T16:30:44Z thmprover: Nilby: my background is actually in numerical analysis, so you are preaching to the choir :) 2021-02-13T16:31:00Z Nilby: Ahh. :) 2021-02-13T16:31:19Z thmprover: And, unfortunately, I am not smart enough to solve the Navier-Stokes-Fourier equations by hand :( 2021-02-13T16:31:29Z Nilby: Hench perhaps your interest in Lisp. 2021-02-13T16:32:56Z thmprover: Scheme was the first "real" language I learned, CL has better performance without sacrificing, uh, "high-level-ness" 2021-02-13T16:35:03Z adlai: thmprover: it's not a matter of smartness, those are either an open problem, or the kind of tedium that you can attack using any reasonable symbolic algebra system; and CL does have one of those. 2021-02-13T16:35:32Z Nilby: Unfortunately, I did math homework in the computer since the beginning, so I that's all I know. 2021-02-13T16:36:31Z adlai: even the open problem is imprecisely specified; e.g., existence is not an open problem in the context where you are using those equations, only in pathological "let's pretend that #lispcafe is a boundary that is both open and closed" cases 2021-02-13T16:36:49Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:37:46Z thmprover: adlai: as of present, no CAS is capable enough to solve the equations, it can only be done by numerical methods, specifically via numerical linear algebra. And sadly, CL lacks good numerical linear algebra libraries. (I say this with love.) 2021-02-13T16:38:16Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-13T16:38:36Z adlai: my guess is that if you are going to the trouble of implementing the FORTRAN grammar, you might as well do so using automated tools and the formal specification, rather than writing your writer by hand; and then you might as well leave the parsed algorithms in your IR, rather than keeping yet another compiler in your OODA loop... 2021-02-13T16:39:29Z adlai: I was not suggesting using a CAS for numerical solutions, only for investigating the questions that you don't want to derive manually 2021-02-13T16:40:30Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:41:10Z adlai: maybe after a few Fields medals that nobody understands, Perelman will get another call after making another impressive step for humanity 2021-02-13T16:41:15Z adlai: maybe not. 2021-02-13T16:41:18Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:41:33Z Nilby: I used to have a hobby of re-implementing some fortan physics code in Lisp, but I didn't understand what I was doing until a plotted a graph. 2021-02-13T16:42:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-13T16:46:46Z thmprover: adlai: ah, I see, in that case I agree with your train of thought about using a CAS for guiding symbolic reasoning. I'd have to take another look at automated tools. I'm still investigating what other routes are available here, so I'm just "thinking out loud" here. 2021-02-13T16:47:01Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T16:47:58Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:49:45Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T16:50:53Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:51:20Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:51:47Z adlai has never heard a positive testimonial from people who actually went ahead with such a strategy, instead of direct FFI 2021-02-13T16:53:16Z thmprover: Yeah, there may be good reason for that! ;) 2021-02-13T16:54:09Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-13T16:54:19Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-02-13T16:57:40Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella) 2021-02-13T17:01:07Z cmsimon joined #lisp 2021-02-13T17:01:45Z rogersm_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T17:02:05Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-13T17:02:31Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T17:02:36Z prxq: adlai: what strategy? I used a lot of f2cl-ed code once uppon a time. Was fine. But I think I might have misunderstood something :-) 2021-02-13T17:03:17Z JeromeLon quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-13T17:05:24Z prxq: thmprover: I don't know anyone who has used a Fortran compiler as an assembler backend for some other compiler. People have used C a lot for that. 2021-02-13T17:05:45Z prxq: With SBCL it usually isn't worth the hassle. It's pretty fast as it is. 2021-02-13T17:06:39Z cmsimon left #lisp 2021-02-13T17:07:03Z prxq: the main problem with climate models is sensitivity to uncertainty. If you want to end your career quickly check that out and tell your supervisor the results ;) 2021-02-13T17:07:30Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-13T17:09:02Z thmprover: prxq: Regarding Fortran-vs-C, a lot of the numerical linear algebra libraries are written in Fortran (which is what guided my judgement), and a small-but-growing number of C++ libraries which seem competitive. 2021-02-13T17:10:45Z thmprover: Regarding model sensitivity, yeah, it seems like that's a huge part of the field, which is interesting. As a mathematician, I'm more inclined to be skeptical of my own results, and couch any findings in swaths of disclaimers and caveats. (It's also why I'm a terrible salesman.) 2021-02-13T17:11:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T17:12:48Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-13T17:13:07Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-13T17:13:26Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T17:16:05Z fitzsim: is it possible on Debian to install quicklisp system-wide, such that no ~/.sbclrc is needed for a given user, yet still anything installed by the system-wide quicklisp is accessible via asdf:load-system? 2021-02-13T17:17:43Z fitzsim: apt install cl-quicklisp seems to just install /usr/share/common-lisp/source/quicklisp/quicklisp.lisp, but each user still has to set it up, from what I can tell 2021-02-13T17:18:17Z fitzsim: ideally I'd like to do all quicklisp operations system-wide, and have the results available to users via asdf, without per-user configuration 2021-02-13T17:19:28Z fitzsim: just joined #quicklisp in case replies make more sense there 2021-02-13T17:22:13Z Bike: you define an /etc/sbclrc file i think it's loaded by sbcl before the user sbclrc 2021-02-13T17:22:19Z Bike: so you can put the quicklisp load there 2021-02-13T17:30:46Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-13T17:33:23Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-13T17:41:39Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-13T17:44:21Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T17:44:21Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-13T17:44:57Z etimmons: fitzsim: what do you mean by "do all quicklisp operations system-wide"? It sounds like you want an administrator to ql:quickload things and have the users only use asdf:load-system, but want to make sure 2021-02-13T17:46:37Z prxq: fitzism: if you want to generate code, you can choose your backend. C simply makes more sense, normally, because people know it better. 2021-02-13T17:46:56Z etimmons: There's nothing stopping you from installing quicklisp to a shared folder and loading it in a system wide init file like Bike suggested. But you'll have to get file permissions right if multiple users can quickload and potentially install new systems to the shared folder 2021-02-13T17:51:07Z etimmons: But if you want the more restricted case of a single user installing systems via Quicklisp and making them available, you can probably just configure ASDF system wide to look for systems inside the central quicklisp folder (there are a multitude of ways to do that) 2021-02-13T18:07:21Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp 2021-02-13T18:08:36Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-13T18:11:56Z surabax_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T18:14:33Z Nilby` joined #lisp 2021-02-13T18:15:39Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-13T18:16:34Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-13T18:19:14Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T18:19:36Z slyrus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-13T18:21:38Z surabax_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-13T18:23:55Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-02-13T18:24:16Z Duuqnd joined #lisp 2021-02-13T18:25:40Z gareppa joined #lisp 2021-02-13T18:26:07Z adlai: prxq: once upon a time, for whatever odd reason, I had no carrion luggage on a long flight across the pond and actually read a duty-free catalog, back in the years when those things advertised a turntable that burns CD-ROMs; 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that's correct 2021-02-13T19:44:11Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T19:44:27Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T19:44:32Z fitzsim: I guess I thought this would be set up automatically by Debian 2021-02-13T19:45:10Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-13T19:45:40Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T19:46:43Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T19:47:01Z fitzsim: unless I reconfigure quicklisp too, I think this'll mean pointing asdf configuration to somewhere under /root/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp 2021-02-13T19:47:47Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T19:48:24Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T19:48:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T19:48:33Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-13T19:48:52Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T19:49:04Z nij: Help.. I upgraded my sbcl this morning and every thing get messed up. I'm unable to return to that state.. so would just fix any error that pops out anyway. 2021-02-13T19:49:31Z nij: Currently, I have trouble connecting to slynk server from emacs. 2021-02-13T19:50:04Z nij: In emacs, running sly and turn on a slynk server port, then `M-x sly-connect` does connect to that server successfully. 2021-02-13T19:50:42Z nij: However, if I run sbcl from terminal, quickload slynk, and open a slynk server with a port, then `M-x sly-connect` doesn't connect to that server correctly. 2021-02-13T19:51:04Z nij: The error from the emacs debugger, while connecting, is given here https://bpa.st/AAUA .. 2021-02-13T19:52:34Z recalloc joined #lisp 2021-02-13T19:56:38Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-13T19:58:07Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-13T19:58:19Z Bike: nij: the error says (i think) that sly-mrepl--insert-prompt is being called with three arguments when it expects four to five 2021-02-13T19:58:28Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T19:58:30Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T19:58:36Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-13T19:58:39Z Bike: nij: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/commit/a0cb30051434be91f8c1889643a77bf218f8b0f5 this fairly recent commit changed what arguments that function takes oh god damn it 2021-02-13T19:59:07Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T19:59:34Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:00:02Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:00:24Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:00:27Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T20:02:52Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:03:23Z nij: OH lemme see! 2021-02-13T20:03:57Z Bike: uh, hopefully you saw my messages i guess 2021-02-13T20:04:05Z Bike: long story short my guess is there's a cache out of wack 2021-02-13T20:04:24Z nij: cache out of wack? 2021-02-13T20:04:31Z Bike: like sbcl from terminal and sbcl from emacs are loading different versions of slynk for whatever reason, i mean 2021-02-13T20:04:55Z Bike: your emacs is using the new one but your terminal sbcl isn't sending it what it expects 2021-02-13T20:05:17Z Bike: maybe it's as simple as ql:update-all-dists, i don't know 2021-02-13T20:05:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T20:05:46Z nij: lemme try 2021-02-13T20:05:52Z nij: im desperate enough to try anything 2021-02-13T20:06:23Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:06:32Z Bike: if that doesn't work you'd probably have to finagle sbcl to load the new slynk manually 2021-02-13T20:06:36Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:06:37Z Bike: which is doable but sort of annoying 2021-02-13T20:07:18Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T20:07:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T20:07:30Z nij: It doesn't work. 2021-02-13T20:07:38Z nij: How to check which slynk sbcl runs? 2021-02-13T20:07:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:09:01Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:09:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T20:09:15Z Bike: hm, dunno how to get it problematically. you can use (ql:where-is-system :slynk) and then look at the asd file 2021-02-13T20:09:27Z Bike: s/problematically/programatically/ 2021-02-13T20:09:58Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-13T20:10:03Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-13T20:10:04Z nij: ! ~/.quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/sly-20210124-git/slynk/" VS ~/.emacs.d/.local/straight/repos/sly/slynk/" 2021-02-13T20:10:13Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:10:22Z Bike: oh. well, that's probably it then 2021-02-13T20:10:27Z nij: I see. I'm using doom, which grabs another piece of slynk to emacs dir. 2021-02-13T20:10:55Z nij almost burst to tears 2021-02-13T20:11:01Z Bike: there's some clever way to configure asdf to find certain systems, but I don't understand it well enough to help you there 2021-02-13T20:11:15Z Bike: i only know the ancient dumbass way, which is (push "/path/to/system" asdf:*central-registry*) 2021-02-13T20:11:46Z Bike: or, if sbcl from emacs works fine, you could figure out what it's doing and copy that 2021-02-13T20:11:47Z fitzsim: Bike: thanks for the suggestion; it looks like Debian's cl-quicklisp package doesn't really support what I want to do without a bunch of extra configuration 2021-02-13T20:11:54Z Bike: no prob 2021-02-13T20:12:08Z fitzsim: so I'll just stick to using quicklisp in per-user home directories 2021-02-13T20:13:26Z nij: lemme try. Sincere thanks from me, Bike. 2021-02-13T20:13:42Z fitzsim: FWIW, Debian's cl-asdf package works the way I was expecting cl-quicklisp to work 2021-02-13T20:13:44Z fitzsim: # apt install cl-; $ sbcl ... (require "asdf") (asdf:load-system "whatever") 2021-02-13T20:13:46Z Bike: again, no prob 2021-02-13T20:13:52Z fitzsim: without any ~/.sbcrc or /etc/sbclrc munging 2021-02-13T20:14:02Z Bike: that's good 2021-02-13T20:14:25Z Bike: debian's common lisp packages used to be really annoying so i'm glad they've fixed them up apparently 2021-02-13T20:14:49Z fitzsim: it's just too bad that Debian doesn't have "cl-mcclim" yet 2021-02-13T20:14:59Z fitzsim: (and it's many dependencies) 2021-02-13T20:15:01Z fitzsim: *its 2021-02-13T20:15:45Z ralt joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:18:38Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T20:20:07Z nij: Bike... 2021-02-13T20:20:10Z nij: It werked. 2021-02-13T20:20:16Z nij: Tears out 2021-02-13T20:21:28Z Bike: oh, good. 2021-02-13T20:21:28Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T20:21:41Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:22:25Z recalloc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T20:22:28Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:23:28Z Bike: it's unfortunate that sly didn't report a version mismatch itself 2021-02-13T20:23:48Z Bike: that might be an interesting feature to add. i think slime/swank has it 2021-02-13T20:24:54Z nij: You mean on quicklisp? 2021-02-13T20:25:25Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:25:32Z nij: I think doomemacs just pull the latest version by default. It's my fault.. I should have pinned down the version. 2021-02-13T20:25:46Z nij: Now I'm restarting stumpwm and see if I can connect to it from mrepl. Thanks again, very much. 2021-02-13T20:25:49Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-13T20:26:13Z Bike: it's nothing to do with quicklisp. I mean, the emacs sly and the lisp slynk are two different systems that have to communicate, right? so there's a protocol between them. At the start of communication they could compare and make sure they're using the same version of the protocol, and so give you a more comprehensible error like "version mismatch: 2021-02-13T20:26:13Z Bike: sly 3.2 slynk 3.0" 2021-02-13T20:26:39Z Bike: you'd still have to update stuff, but you wouldn't have to dig through emacs's stupid backtraces to understand the problem 2021-02-13T20:29:50Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:29:55Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T20:30:31Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:30:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T20:31:04Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:31:18Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T20:37:34Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:38:30Z equwal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-13T20:40:44Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:44:54Z andreyorst[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T20:45:22Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:45:25Z kenran quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-13T20:45:53Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:46:17Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T20:46:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:50:20Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-13T20:55:26Z Nilby` joined #lisp 2021-02-13T20:59:45Z Nilby` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T21:00:32Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:01:06Z sm2n quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-13T21:03:33Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T21:03:47Z Bike quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-13T21:09:03Z hvxgr joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:13:21Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:13:53Z Nilby` joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:15:16Z adlai: what's the meaning of the symbol names that have more than one consecutive hyphen? 2021-02-13T21:15:17Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T21:15:42Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:16:45Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T21:19:43Z phoe: haven't seen them around CL 2021-02-13T21:24:23Z adlai: I guess it was a typo 2021-02-13T21:25:19Z Nilby`: I think most of the time it means a "minus" that happens to be next to a "hyphen", e.g. SB-KERNEL:TWO-ARG-- SB-VM::FAST---MOD64/FIXNUM=>FIXNUM 2021-02-13T21:27:33Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-13T21:32:03Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T21:33:18Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:33:48Z mfiano: In elisp, that means it's private, because they lack package qualifiers. 2021-02-13T21:35:33Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T21:36:00Z adlai frequently sees such names in emacs tab completion; and has also encountered them occasionally in URLs generated by Coleslaw, so did not assume it was a typo 2021-02-13T21:37:29Z adlai: there is probably no reason to ever use consecutive spacing hyphens in a CL name, given the variety of punctuation that is allowed 2021-02-13T21:39:01Z devon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T21:39:18Z devon joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:40:18Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:42:05Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T21:48:15Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:48:38Z warweasle: Hello. Has anyone gotten the e-trade api to work with lisp? 2021-02-13T21:48:56Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:49:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T21:49:39Z warweasle is having trouble getting cl-oauth to work without knowing anything about oauth. 2021-02-13T21:51:08Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:52:18Z Duuqnd_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:54:36Z SoTypicalNoob joined #lisp 2021-02-13T21:55:05Z Duuqnd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T21:56:45Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T21:58:18Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-13T21:58:49Z ralt: Bike: sly/slynk does warn you on version mismatch 2021-02-13T21:59:01Z ralt: At least I've seen it do so for me 2021-02-13T21:59:21Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-13T22:02:30Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-13T22:02:30Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-02-13T22:02:30Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-13T22:02:38Z Duuqnd_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-13T22:04:47Z adlai left #lisp 2021-02-13T22:07:05Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T22:07:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T22:09:42Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-13T22:09:58Z seabass[m]2 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T22:17:41Z SoTypicalNoob quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T22:20:34Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-13T22:23:06Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-02-13T22:25:51Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-13T22:26:27Z Josh_2: When using cl-autowrap how do I get c-include to prefix all function names with ? 2021-02-13T22:28:41Z devon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T22:29:37Z ralt: (BOUNDP 'symbol) returns NIL for symbols declared with (DEFINE-SYMBOL-MACRO). It feels like a bug, doesn't it? 2021-02-13T22:31:00Z ralt: I guess in theory it's not but... it feels like it should be, when define-symbol-macro is used in practice :/ 2021-02-13T22:31:47Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-02-13T22:32:11Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-13T22:37:21Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-13T22:43:59Z Bike: the symbol isn't actually bound if it's a macro 2021-02-13T22:44:14Z Bike: even if it is a macro, you can still do (setf (symbol-value 'symbol) whatever) to make it bound, I think 2021-02-13T22:44:16Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-13T22:45:13Z Josh_2: This library I'm trying to wrap with cl-autowrap has 24 header files, do I need a c-include for each one? 2021-02-13T22:48:28Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T22:48:34Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T22:49:36Z Josh_2: seems I can use :include-sources 2021-02-13T22:52:02Z ralt: Bike: thanks for the symbol-value accessor suggestion 2021-02-13T22:54:43Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-13T22:54:43Z Bike: keep in mind that having something as both a symbol macro and a bound variable is really confusing 2021-02-13T22:54:53Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-13T22:56:48Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T22:56:50Z ralt: Bike: this is in the context of https://gitlab.com/ralt/pvars , where I'm trying to hide away the fact that those are not bound symbols 2021-02-13T22:56:54Z jonatack__ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T22:58:05Z lowryder_ is now known as lowryder 2021-02-13T22:59:26Z Bike: i see 2021-02-13T23:03:00Z jonatack__ quit (Quit: jonatack__) 2021-02-13T23:03:39Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-13T23:14:24Z kenran quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-13T23:26:07Z Josh_2: Do I have to write like 6 different system definitions to use cffi/c2ffi with 6 different header files? 2021-02-13T23:26:25Z Josh_2: 5 actually 2021-02-13T23:26:56Z Josh_2: this is my first time doing this 2021-02-13T23:27:25Z Josh_2: one of the examples is the sdl bindings and they have a new defsystem for each different .h 2021-02-13T23:33:13Z Josh_2: maybe I can just have 5 components 2021-02-13T23:34:28Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T23:35:19Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-13T23:36:40Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-13T23:37:15Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-13T23:37:21Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-13T23:38:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-13T23:40:21Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-13T23:42:33Z jasom: Does fare-quasiquote-optima not work anymore? 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BODY OFF THE GROUND THE BEE OF COURSE FLIES ANYWAY BECAUSE BEES DON'T CARE WHAT HUMANS THINK IS IMPOSSIBLE) 2021-02-14T13:02:23Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-14T13:08:58Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-02-14T13:10:35Z grumble joined #lisp 2021-02-14T13:16:03Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-14T13:23:55Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-14T13:27:51Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-14T13:30:16Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-14T13:31:11Z cage_: (reposting from #guix) Hi! I am trying using guix for a common lisp software that uses asdf and autotools to build and install the package, i am using gnu-build-system and the process fails the phase when building the executable with sbcl the compiler says that can not find asdf (the CL building system), any idea? 2021-02-14T13:31:53Z cage_: i can see that stumpwm and pgloader are packaged with guix so i hope someone who did that job is here :) 2021-02-14T13:37:24Z mfiano: I don't think Pierre hangs out on IRC 2021-02-14T13:38:06Z mfiano: He is on the Nyxt team though so maybe jmercouris knows 2021-02-14T13:38:45Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-14T13:42:27Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-14T13:42:43Z SAL9000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-02-14T13:45:18Z cage_: mfiano, thank you! 2021-02-14T13:45:53Z cage_: abrevar is their nick, is it? 2021-02-14T13:45:59Z mfiano: Ambrevar 2021-02-14T13:46:00Z cage_: *ambrevar 2021-02-14T13:46:06Z cage_: yes, thanks :) 2021-02-14T13:46:51Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-14T13:47:31Z cage_: seems i could be able to reach on the fediverse :) 2021-02-14T13:50:07Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-14T13:50:09Z texno quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-14T13:55:18Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-02-14T13:56:14Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-14T13:57:37Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:01:50Z sunset_NOVA joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:02:25Z sunset_NOVA quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T14:02:37Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:02:39Z sunset_NOVA joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:03:00Z sunset_NOVA quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T14:03:15Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-14T14:03:18Z puchacz quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-14T14:08:38Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:12:33Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:13:38Z jmercouris: cage_: you’re best off using his email from his website 2021-02-14T14:18:21Z cage_: jmercouris, thanks! :) 2021-02-14T14:18:42Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:24:22Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:27:33Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T14:27:40Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:27:59Z Josh_2: Afternoon all 2021-02-14T14:28:04Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:28:50Z Josh_2: Im tryna use cffi/c2ffi, I think I have my config correct but when I try to load the system with quicklisp I get an "the file .../spec/olm....spec does not exist" 2021-02-14T14:29:34Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2294#2294 2021-02-14T14:29:55Z cage_: Josh_2, try to ask borodust, he is maintaning a fork IIRC 2021-02-14T14:31:32Z Josh_2: I'm just tryna generate some C bindings automatically 2021-02-14T14:31:35Z borodust: cage_ Josh_2: i'm not maintaining fork of cl-autowrap or cffi-c2ffi 2021-02-14T14:31:46Z cage_: sorry :( 2021-02-14T14:31:56Z borodust: cage_: no problem :) 2021-02-14T14:32:14Z Josh_2: are there docs for claw anywhere? 2021-02-14T14:32:18Z borodust: no 2021-02-14T14:32:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:33:52Z borodust: Josh_2: your best bet for C wrapper autogeneration would be cl-autowrap atm 2021-02-14T14:34:23Z borodust: if you don't mind a bit of manual hinting cffi+groveller might work for you 2021-02-14T14:35:01Z Josh_2: Well this is my first rodeo, I looked at cffi+groveller but cant say I have a clue how it works 2021-02-14T14:36:12Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:36:56Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-14T14:37:03Z Josh_2: I'm trying to bind the megolm v1 library it has like 20 header files (the python library that binds it uses 6) 2021-02-14T14:38:38Z borodust: Josh_2: gimme a link to sources, i can try to generate a wrapper - you then can tune it as you like 2021-02-14T14:39:38Z Josh_2: https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm 2021-02-14T14:40:04Z borodust: lets see 2021-02-14T14:40:41Z Josh_2: The python version which I need to copy only uses olm.h inbound_group_session.h outbout_group_session.h pk.h and sas.h 2021-02-14T14:44:15Z Josh_2: need a tool to convert C/CPP to Common Lisp code :P 2021-02-14T14:44:49Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:44:59Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T14:45:31Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:45:47Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:46:07Z Nilby: I am such a tool. 2021-02-14T14:46:17Z Josh_2: Whys that? 2021-02-14T14:47:06Z Nilby: I've done a lot of converting C/C++ to Lisp. 2021-02-14T14:47:32Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-14T14:47:35Z Josh_2: oh right, you can convert olm to CL if you want ;) 2021-02-14T14:53:22Z Josh_2: to be fair the olm library is more the speciality of the folks who wrote Ironclad 2021-02-14T14:54:33Z borodust: Josh_2: here you go: https://github.com/borodust/claw-olm 2021-02-14T14:54:48Z borodust: Josh_2: be careful, i never tested if those actually work ;p 2021-02-14T14:55:37Z borodust: those are generated for linux but if you would only call functions and use pointers to structs you should be safe on other systems too, fork and modify accordingly :) 2021-02-14T14:56:55Z borodust: to load bindings, clone where asdf can find them, and (ql:register-local-projects) (ql:quickload :claw-olm) 2021-02-14T14:57:03Z Josh_2: This is amazing 2021-02-14T14:57:05Z borodust: :claw is not required 2021-02-14T14:57:05Z Josh_2: thank you! 2021-02-14T14:57:09Z borodust: no probs 2021-02-14T14:57:32Z borodust: you can ignore :claw-olm/wrapper system, it is used for actual generation :) 2021-02-14T15:00:20Z borodust: actually, one minor fix incoming ;p 2021-02-14T15:00:33Z borodust: forgot to remove one thing while copypasting 2021-02-14T15:01:55Z borodust: done 2021-02-14T15:05:16Z Josh_2: Thanks, I'll give them a spin now! 2021-02-14T15:06:15Z zooey quit (Quit: quit) 2021-02-14T15:06:36Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-02-14T15:06:38Z borodust: have fun :) 2021-02-14T15:09:23Z Josh_2: ah 2021-02-14T15:09:45Z Josh_2: well I noticed one problem that is my fault because of a spelling error on my part 2021-02-14T15:10:10Z Josh_2: "olm/outbout_group_session.h" is supposed to be "olm/outbound_group_session.h" 2021-02-14T15:16:08Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-14T15:17:46Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-02-14T15:20:29Z Josh_2: borodust: how do I get claw to regenerate the bindings after I have fixed the spelling mistake with the .h? 2021-02-14T15:22:16Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-14T15:34:19Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-14T15:37:56Z borodust: Josh_2: you don't :) need to wait for me to regen them 2021-02-14T15:38:57Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-14T15:39:01Z borodust: those bindings are generated by experimental claw branch (w/ cxx support) 2021-02-14T15:39:37Z borodust: err, *by claw from experimental branch 2021-02-14T15:41:45Z Josh_2: Oh I see 2021-02-14T15:41:50Z Josh_2: Sorry for being such a pain :( 2021-02-14T15:44:44Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-02-14T15:53:00Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-02-14T15:55:26Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-14T15:55:36Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-14T15:56:12Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-02-14T15:56:26Z puchacz quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-14T15:57:45Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-14T16:07:33Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-14T16:12:21Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-14T16:19:11Z ralt joined #lisp 2021-02-14T16:27:50Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-14T16:35:42Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-02-14T16:39:09Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-14T16:43:31Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-14T16:48:54Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-14T16:50:42Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-02-14T16:51:40Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-14T16:52:09Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-14T16:58:25Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-14T17:02:23Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2021-02-14T17:04:27Z jlarocco: Is there etiquette or guidelines for libraries adding values to *features* ? 2021-02-14T17:04:48Z jlarocco: Or best practices 2021-02-14T17:05:35Z borodust: Josh_2: actually, it seems like this header was included from somewhere else and bindings are generated for functions from that header :) 2021-02-14T17:06:15Z borodust: Josh_2: I've pushed typo fix anyway 2021-02-14T17:09:15Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-14T17:09:24Z charles`: Good morning 2021-02-14T17:11:35Z beach: Hello charles`. 2021-02-14T17:16:55Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-02-14T17:17:02Z Nilby: jlarocco: I think most libraries shouldn't add anything to features. Modern etiquette is that it's for things that widely apply to the whole system, such as the OS version, or the CPU type. To check for things packages you can do find-package, and then something the package provides. And there's other ways to do conditional compilation, e.g. things in the ASD. 2021-02-14T17:17:36Z Nilby: Just my opinion, of course. 2021-02-14T17:20:05Z charles`: clhs read-from-string says that it is affected by none, but isn't it affected by *read-eval*? 2021-02-14T17:23:44Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-14T17:26:47Z Nilby: charles`: I think that's an error in CLHS. It's not in the actual CL specification. 2021-02-14T17:28:00Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-14T17:28:14Z carkh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T17:28:20Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-02-14T17:29:48Z Nilby: One can assume it's affected by at least: *readtable* *read-default-float-format* *read-base* *read-suppress* *package* *read-eval* 2021-02-14T17:31:51Z Nilby: since it says, it's as if "read" is called 2021-02-14T17:36:03Z charles`: I know it isn't official spec, but it is what most people use, 2021-02-14T17:37:16Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T17:38:05Z Nilby: charles`: Yes. Good catch. Also it does have side effects. I wonder if anyone dares to update CLHS? But it's true it proably doesn't have any addtional side effects, on top of calling read. 2021-02-14T17:39:21Z Nilby: I actually always look at the draft spec version in emacs info. But it has problems too. 2021-02-14T17:39:53Z charles`: while we are on the topic, is it safe to use read-from-string on user inputted strings as long as *read-eval* is nil? 2021-02-14T17:39:53Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-14T17:40:20Z jlarocco: Nilby: thanks. I'll look into the ASD conditional compilation. 2021-02-14T17:42:15Z Nilby: charles`: I wouldn't call it safe. It's safer, but not from truely malicious things. You might want to check out https://github.com/phoe/safe-read. 2021-02-14T17:46:18Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-14T17:47:49Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-14T17:50:57Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-14T17:52:18Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-14T17:59:56Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-14T17:59:59Z nullman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T18:04:23Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-14T18:04:33Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-14T18:04:50Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-14T18:07:57Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-14T18:20:38Z ym joined #lisp 2021-02-14T18:24:36Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-14T18:25:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-14T18:27:41Z lottaquestions_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-02-14T18:30:16Z flip214: Is there some kind of stream that accepts ub8 vectors and strings? 2021-02-14T18:34:28Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-14T18:42:28Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-02-14T18:43:03Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-14T18:44:24Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-14T18:46:36Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-14T18:49:31Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-14T18:50:05Z unimog joined #lisp 2021-02-14T18:50:45Z SoTypicalNoob quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-14T18:52:50Z nullman joined #lisp 2021-02-14T18:53:17Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-14T18:59:38Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-14T19:00:30Z nij: Is it possible to define "functions" that have a fixed number of arguments? 2021-02-14T19:00:52Z nij: I want to make currying more native in lisp... 2021-02-14T19:02:59Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-14T19:08:48Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-14T19:19:14Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-14T19:24:41Z asarch: Take a look: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html 2021-02-14T19:26:45Z nij: Hmm I realize my question doesn't make sense. OF COURSE we can define functions that have a fixed number of arguments. 2021-02-14T19:27:40Z nij: What I intended to ask is this: suppose I have (defun f (x y) (+ x y)).. how do I make (+ 3) return a function? 2021-02-14T19:28:08Z nij: With #'curry I can probably use something like (curry #'+ 3), but that's too long. 2021-02-14T19:29:54Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-14T19:34:59Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-14T19:35:45Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-14T19:35:57Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-14T19:35:57Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-14T19:40:26Z dale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T19:40:39Z dale joined #lisp 2021-02-14T19:41:05Z dale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T19:41:34Z dale joined #lisp 2021-02-14T19:43:16Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T19:45:10Z charles`: nij what syntax are you looking for? (curry #'+ 3) or (partial #'+ 3) seems pretty short to me 2021-02-14T19:45:31Z ralt joined #lisp 2021-02-14T19:45:48Z dale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T19:45:52Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-14T19:46:00Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-02-14T19:46:35Z dale joined #lisp 2021-02-14T19:52:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-14T19:56:05Z McParen joined #lisp 2021-02-14T19:56:17Z nij: Perhaps.. [+ 3] ? 2021-02-14T19:56:35Z nij: So I can happily run [[+ 3] 4] 2021-02-14T19:57:54Z aeth: nij: How about #y(+ 3) instead? for currY 2021-02-14T19:57:59Z aeth: (C's taken and R's taken) 2021-02-14T19:58:19Z aeth: dispatch reader macro 2021-02-14T19:58:46Z terpri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-14T19:59:25Z nij: Ah.. i see it's again an issue of using reader macros. I should look into a list of basic examples of them to get familiar with. 2021-02-14T19:59:29Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-14T19:59:39Z nij: aeth: can't I use []? or some other things like ||? 2021-02-14T20:00:06Z aeth: it's easier to use #(...) than to use alternatives 2021-02-14T20:00:30Z aeth: the only problem is that you'll soon run out of letters! 2021-02-14T20:00:51Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:01:18Z aeth: The ideal thing to do is to turn #(...) into ( ...) 2021-02-14T20:01:28Z nij: yeah it's quite sad that we only have ~30 letters 2021-02-14T20:01:48Z nij: However! letters with ({[|$#@%]}) offer as a lot of variations 2021-02-14T20:02:41Z nij: aeth: or we can start using unicodes, as aplers do 2021-02-14T20:05:12Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:05:21Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-14T20:08:36Z flip214: CL-PDF wants to write to a stream that accepts both WRITE-STRING and WRITE-BYTE. How can I get such a stream? 2021-02-14T20:10:18Z aeth: have you tried trivial-gray-streams? Idk if it lets you do it. 2021-02-14T20:10:22Z citizenajb joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:10:28Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:10:47Z aeth: (fundamental-binary-output-stream fundamental-character-output-stream) 2021-02-14T20:11:33Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:12:04Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-14T20:12:54Z flip214: aeth: do you have an example? Do I need to declare my own stream class for that 2021-02-14T20:12:54Z flip214: ? 2021-02-14T20:13:57Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-14T20:16:05Z aeth: flip214: that would be my guess 2021-02-14T20:16:18Z aeth: perhaps someone has provided one if they expect it, though 2021-02-14T20:16:46Z aeth: you could try grepping for inheritance from those two classes if it was implemented the way I think it might be implemented 2021-02-14T20:18:31Z aeth: At the very least, it looks like it's not an error so it looks like it's possible. (defclass foo (trivial-gray-streams:fundamental-binary-output-stream trivial-gray-streams:fundamental-character-output-stream) ()) 2021-02-14T20:18:54Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:19:49Z aeth: All you need to define your own streams, at least afaik, is to put a queue in the object and define the methods described in http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/stream-definition-by-user.html 2021-02-14T20:21:51Z aeth: But if they expect it they probably already have one in mind. 2021-02-14T20:23:57Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-14T20:27:59Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-14T20:28:19Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:28:59Z drl joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:30:46Z gioyik_ joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:33:14Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:34:01Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:34:17Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-14T20:37:56Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:39:27Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-14T20:40:22Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:42:13Z puchacz quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-14T20:47:56Z equwal[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-14T20:51:18Z Josh_2: borodust: thanks :) 2021-02-14T20:51:18Z McParen left #lisp 2021-02-14T20:51:19Z borodust: o7 2021-02-14T20:53:44Z Josh_2: Now for the annoying part, converting this python code into CL 2021-02-14T21:02:57Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-14T21:12:32Z unimog left #lisp 2021-02-14T21:13:27Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-14T21:14:27Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-14T21:19:55Z Sheilong quit 2021-02-14T21:25:46Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-02-14T21:27:19Z gioyik_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-14T21:35:30Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-14T21:36:45Z edgar-rft: Josh_2: I've heard CL is less annoying than one might think :-) 2021-02-14T21:37:35Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-14T21:41:33Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-14T21:50:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-14T21:51:08Z antoszka: ;) 2021-02-14T21:55:40Z eta quit (Quit: we're here, we're queer, connection reset by peer) 2021-02-14T21:56:00Z eta joined #lisp 2021-02-14T21:59:45Z Josh_2: edgar-rft: perhaps 2021-02-14T22:00:01Z mood_ quit (Quit: Gone.) 2021-02-14T22:00:22Z mood joined #lisp 2021-02-14T22:01:04Z Josh_2: with CFFI I need to pass a void * to a foreign function, this can just be a pointer to an array or a string right? 2021-02-14T22:02:11Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-14T22:03:27Z Josh_2: In the python code I'm trying to copy they are using ffi.from_buffer() I don't know what the equivalent is in cffi 2021-02-14T22:08:33Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-14T22:09:10Z holycow quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-14T22:14:50Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-14T22:20:15Z holycow_ joined #lisp 2021-02-14T22:23:40Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-14T22:28:03Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-14T22:28:16Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella) 2021-02-14T22:30:39Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-14T22:36:43Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-14T22:50:36Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-14T22:50:53Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-14T22:55:09Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-14T22:57:23Z equwal[m] is now known as equwal 2021-02-14T22:58:22Z kpoeck quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-14T22:59:07Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-14T22:59:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-14T23:05:11Z holycow_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-14T23:07:13Z citizenajb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T23:10:33Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-02-14T23:16:57Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-14T23:18:52Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T23:22:03Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-14T23:30:08Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-14T23:32:33Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-14T23:37:11Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-14T23:42:06Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-02-14T23:43:37Z jasom: Down to 35 test failures in nyaml 2021-02-14T23:43:54Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-14T23:44:29Z jasom: flip214: search for "bivalent stream" 2021-02-14T23:44:41Z jasom: flip214: sbcl provides these out-of-the-box, not sure if there is a trivial wrapper for them 2021-02-14T23:45:45Z jasom: Josh_2: CFFI wil lautomatically convert a string to a char *, but you need to be careful of your encodings. 2021-02-14T23:47:03Z jasom: Josh_2: it will *not* automatically convert byte arrays IIRC, so you need to allocate foreign storage and copy the array into it. There is a library (static-vectors?) that lets you allocate lisp vectors that may be directly passed to foreign code without copying. 2021-02-14T23:49:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-14T23:49:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-14T23:49:35Z jasom: Josh_2: https://github.com/jasom/mymongrel2/blob/master/mymongrel2.lisp#L13 this converts *from* foreign to lisp, but you can just flip what's in the SETF and do a foreign-alloc to do the reverse 2021-02-14T23:50:22Z jasom: Josh_2: there is a with-foreign-object macro, but it's bad for large object because it may stack allocate 2021-02-14T23:51:40Z jasom: Josh_2: but with foreign-alloc you'll have to free it yourself 2021-02-14T23:56:27Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-14T23:59:05Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-14T23:59:11Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-14T23:59:36Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2021-02-15T00:05:26Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-15T00:18:23Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T00:27:49Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-15T00:29:41Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-02-15T00:30:30Z mfiano: Anyone here use the antiquated thing that is structure-object a lot? 2021-02-15T00:30:43Z Xach: mfiano: sort of 2021-02-15T00:30:45Z mfiano: I am running into some difficulty 2021-02-15T00:32:45Z mfiano: I have 2 packages. In package A, I have a structure FOO with 1 slot called BAR. In package B, I have another structure that includes it with (:include a:foo), and this one has a conc-name of nil. When I define the second struct in package B, I get a function redefintion warning, redefining A::BAR and A::(SETF BAR). Is this expected? 2021-02-15T00:35:31Z Xach cannot help sorry 2021-02-15T00:35:43Z mfiano: Package A doesn't even use conc-name NIL 2021-02-15T00:35:57Z mfiano: So unsure how it is created to be redefined... 2021-02-15T00:38:25Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-15T00:39:20Z Xach: mfiano: i don't think i see the same behavior, but maybe i'm not trying it right. do you have a file i could load to try it? 2021-02-15T00:42:01Z mfiano: Xach: I don't have an isolated case, but if you want to try loading my project I'd appreciate any pointers 2021-02-15T00:42:30Z Xach: i can try 2021-02-15T00:42:33Z mfiano: One sec 2021-02-15T00:43:16Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-02-15T00:48:22Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T00:50:27Z mfiano: Xach: Sent the link to you in private 2021-02-15T00:51:00Z phireh joined #lisp 2021-02-15T00:56:19Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp 2021-02-15T01:16:58Z charles`: For tail call optimization, are the stack frames still supposed to appear in the debugger? 2021-02-15T01:17:30Z Xach: charles`: no 2021-02-15T01:19:35Z charles`: hmm, I have a recursive function, that I thought was tail call optimization, but it is getting stack overflow (not infinite). How do I go about finding where it can't be optimized. 2021-02-15T01:20:37Z charles`: If I have a (let (...) (recur)), that is still optimizable right? 2021-02-15T01:21:15Z Alfr: charles`, not if you bind special variables. 2021-02-15T01:21:30Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T01:22:03Z Xach: charles`: not sure, sorry. it's not something that always happens in Common Lisp even if it is possible. 2021-02-15T01:23:25Z charles`: Alfr, no special binding here, good point though. 2021-02-15T01:23:30Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-15T01:23:59Z charles`: Xach, is that just because of the lack of labor on the compilers? 2021-02-15T01:24:51Z Alfr: charles`, not mandated by the standard. An implementation may choose to never optimize tail calls. 2021-02-15T01:24:59Z Xach: charles`: no. it's because sometimes you don't want it. like if you want all the frames to debug. 2021-02-15T01:25:25Z Xach: In my experience compilers document when it can be done and what settings to use to do it when possible. 2021-02-15T01:25:36Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-15T01:25:43Z Xach: It is not done unconditionally whenever possible in all circumstances. 2021-02-15T01:28:28Z Xach: some compilers do it under the default settings, some do it only under certain compiler settings, and some don't do it under any circumstances. 2021-02-15T01:30:21Z charles`: It seems I must unroll it manually 2021-02-15T01:34:30Z Xach: charles`: can you share the code? 2021-02-15T01:36:47Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-15T01:37:50Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-15T01:38:47Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-15T01:45:18Z Nilby: The CMU compiler manual says, it can't do tail recursion when there is a special binding, catch or unwind-protect, block or tagbody with a go closure, or when debug quality > 2. 2021-02-15T01:49:12Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-15T01:52:29Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-15T01:57:05Z thijso quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-15T02:01:45Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-15T02:02:33Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-15T02:03:39Z thijso joined #lisp 2021-02-15T02:05:58Z anticrisis quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-15T02:12:05Z Josh_2: jasom: Thanks for the information! 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Maybe you can post your version with repetition, and we can analyze it. 2021-02-15T07:06:38Z beach: A macro may be the only reasonable solution. 2021-02-15T07:07:52Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-15T07:10:07Z charles`: https://pastebin.com/9MvymGiA 2021-02-15T07:10:22Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:10:24Z sauvin_ is now known as Sauvin 2021-02-15T07:12:19Z beach: Are you referring to the (progn ,@optimized) as the repetition? 2021-02-15T07:12:36Z beach: If so, that's repeated only in the generated code, not in the source. 2021-02-15T07:12:55Z charles`: yes, that is what I refer to. is that not a big deal? 2021-02-15T07:12:55Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:15:27Z ralt joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:15:56Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-15T07:16:03Z buffergn0me joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:17:07Z beach: No, and the compiler will regularly duplicate code anyway, in order to speed it up. 2021-02-15T07:17:14Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:17:20Z beach: Like inlining, loop unrolling, etc. 2021-02-15T07:17:31Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-15T07:18:28Z charles`: Very cool, thanks. 2021-02-15T07:18:32Z beach: Sure. 2021-02-15T07:20:13Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:20:13Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-02-15T07:20:13Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:20:53Z beach: ... and I am still not sure whether you were referring to the repeated source code, or the repeated generated code. 2021-02-15T07:22:18Z charles`: I was worried about repeated generated code 2021-02-15T07:22:35Z beach: Oh! Yes, then you can totally forget about the issue. :) 2021-02-15T07:22:59Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:23:34Z charles`: I also just realized that I can do my initial destructuring-bind inside the macro-lambda-list 2021-02-15T07:26:02Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:27:16Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-15T07:28:53Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:42:25Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:51:55Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:52:20Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:56:42Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-15T07:58:21Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-15T07:58:37Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-15T07:58:49Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:59:19Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T07:59:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-15T08:06:56Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-15T08:07:34Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-15T08:08:25Z gj joined #lisp 2021-02-15T08:08:32Z gj: hello everyone 2021-02-15T08:08:52Z beach: Hello gj. 2021-02-15T08:09:52Z gj: oh hi there! i do have a lisp question today. 2021-02-15T08:10:08Z beach: Go right ahead. 2021-02-15T08:12:11Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-15T08:12:15Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T08:13:04Z gj: hmm, i am trying to think about how exactly to word it... english is not my first language so it might take a while. 2021-02-15T08:13:18Z beach: Take your time. 2021-02-15T08:14:06Z beach: My guess is that the same holds true for most #lisp participants. 2021-02-15T08:17:24Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-15T08:20:10Z shka_: gj: spit it out, we can figure out what you mean together :-) 2021-02-15T08:21:25Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-15T08:24:28Z gj: im trying to figure it out myself!! i think i am almost there. 2021-02-15T08:24:53Z gj: if not, of course i will ask for help 2021-02-15T08:25:01Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-15T08:25:23Z shka_: ok 2021-02-15T08:26:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-15T08:28:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T08:30:16Z Inline: morning 2021-02-15T08:30:47Z beach: Hello Inline. 2021-02-15T08:31:05Z Inline: heya beach 2021-02-15T08:31:07Z pankajsg quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-02-15T08:31:35Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-15T08:35:02Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-15T08:40:39Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-15T08:41:08Z buffergn0me left #lisp 2021-02-15T08:49:41Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-15T08:57:38Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-15T09:00:10Z anotherone9999[m quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-02-15T09:04:15Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:06:37Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-15T09:07:24Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:07:57Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:10:56Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-15T09:10:57Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-15T09:10:58Z voidlily joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:12:38Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-15T09:14:06Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-15T09:14:16Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:15:06Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:16:59Z imode quit (Quit: Sleepy sheepy..) 2021-02-15T09:17:25Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-15T09:18:48Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T09:19:00Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:19:00Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-02-15T09:19:00Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:19:26Z luis quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-15T09:19:26Z hineios quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-15T09:19:45Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-15T09:19:47Z hineios joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:19:48Z luis joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:20:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-15T09:20:18Z nmg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-15T09:20:30Z Lord_of_Life quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) 2021-02-15T09:20:35Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:20:40Z nmg joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:20:49Z markasoftware quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-02-15T09:21:50Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:22:08Z markasoftware joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:22:22Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T09:24:38Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:27:38Z Sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-15T09:28:47Z sauvin_ is now known as Sauvin 2021-02-15T09:32:29Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:35:03Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:36:00Z logoman joined #lisp 2021-02-15T09:38:16Z gingerale quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2021-02-15T09:38:52Z logoman quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-15T09:47:31Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-15T10:03:10Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2021-02-15T10:03:12Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-15T10:04:21Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-15T10:06:06Z gingerale joined #lisp 2021-02-15T10:10:45Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-15T10:13:11Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-15T10:15:31Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-15T10:16:34Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-15T10:16:49Z voidlily joined #lisp 2021-02-15T10:18:01Z prxq quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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If I have a lisp program already that happily works without a GUI, does it take many steps for me to generated a HTML5 backend doc?! 2021-02-15T12:52:06Z nij` is now known as nij 2021-02-15T12:53:51Z contrapunctus: nij: I've been thinking about different ways of interacting with programs, outside of the traditional file-based ways. Any reason you wouldn't want to just use SLIME/Sly itself, instead of making a web app which mimics them? 2021-02-15T12:55:09Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-15T12:58:25Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-15T12:59:05Z alfred188 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-15T13:04:08Z nij: contrapunctus: tbh my plan is vague 2021-02-15T13:04:39Z nij: I'm writing math papers and books. And in math.. technical terms are really OBJECTS. 2021-02-15T13:06:04Z nij: In traditional writing, there's even no hyperlink. The reading experience is super bad. 2021-02-15T13:06:24Z nij: Nowadays, there are more and more wiki-like articles. But it's still superficial. 2021-02-15T13:06:45Z nij: Really, based on set theory, all math concepts can be written as some sort of Lisp objects. 2021-02-15T13:07:17Z nij: Once that's done, we should be able to automatically generate a wiki for users to dive in. 2021-02-15T13:07:42Z nij: So why not just SLIME/SLY themselves? 1. We need latex rendering (or even more, idk for now). 2. More users can read it. 2021-02-15T13:08:28Z nij: (e.g. look at https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/group+completion .. there are lots of links.. but they lack of "structures") 2021-02-15T13:10:08Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:10:54Z nij: And it's not just math I guess. In general, having web like doc is useful. 2021-02-15T13:10:54Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T13:11:09Z Guest30620 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:11:10Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:13:06Z Guest30620 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T13:13:17Z nij quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-15T13:13:37Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:19:22Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:26:01Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-15T13:29:49Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:31:25Z zulu-inuoe joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:33:56Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-15T13:36:13Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:37:13Z lambdanon joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:38:21Z lambdanon: Hi, I'm trying to figure out how to use CLX to try making my own window manager, but the brief tour shown in the manuals I find are broken; there's an undefined function called `menu-present`. Are there up-to-date manuals? Are there better X frameworks in CL? 2021-02-15T13:38:42Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:40:03Z ralt: lambdanon: maybe try looking at how stumpwm does it 2021-02-15T13:40:10Z ralt: it's a window manager using CLX 2021-02-15T13:40:26Z contrapunctus: nij: hm...would notebooks meet your needs? From what little I know of them, they seem to be the mix of interactive environment and document that you want. 2021-02-15T13:41:31Z nij: contrapunctus: lemme put it this way.. can we generate a pile of htmls (or a notebook.. which im not familiar with) from an asdf system? 2021-02-15T13:41:35Z Bike: lambdanon: if you're looking at "A Quick Tour of CLX", it looks like the actual code has menu-present defined 2021-02-15T13:41:52Z Bike: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/blob/master/demo/menu.lisp#L252 2021-02-15T13:41:57Z lambdanon: Bike: That's odd. I C-f through the document, and it's not there? 2021-02-15T13:42:14Z Bike: yeah, i don't think the manual has the entire program 2021-02-15T13:42:15Z lambdanon: https://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~ljosa/doc/encycmuclopedia/x/clx.pdf 2021-02-15T13:42:42Z lambdanon: Bike: thanks, that clears a lot up 2021-02-15T13:43:32Z lambdanon: ralt: I'm trying to do a dynamic window manager that feels like DWM, but with stumpwm's extensibility. I'll try checking out the source code, hopefully it'll show how they do it 2021-02-15T13:43:54Z lambdanon: Right now I'm thinking of designing the program with something like 2021-02-15T13:44:07Z ralt: lambdanon: maybe you want to take a look at this first https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm/pull/851 2021-02-15T13:45:57Z contrapunctus: nij: I think I've seen libraries for that. But mind, I'm just a newbie in CL. Have a look here. https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#documentation-builders 2021-02-15T13:46:17Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-15T13:46:23Z lambdanon: ralt: That looks cool. although I'll probably end up using this dynamic management in stumwpm, I'm also making this project out of my own sense of curiosity, learning how to manage asdf systems, packages, etc 2021-02-15T13:47:43Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:49:17Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:49:25Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:53:12Z nij: contrapunctus: among them mgl-pax seems interesting! thanks for sharing! (taking a look) 2021-02-15T13:53:59Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-15T13:56:01Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T13:56:29Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-15T13:57:57Z lambdanon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T13:58:02Z zxq2: any good resource for learning about fixed point combinators? 2021-02-15T13:58:09Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-15T13:58:26Z zxq2: specifically for doing recursion 2021-02-15T14:02:47Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:05:57Z beach: You mean like the Y combinator? 2021-02-15T14:06:18Z beach: I would think a boot about lambda calculus. 2021-02-15T14:06:21Z drl_ joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:06:32Z holycow joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:06:38Z zxq2: yeah 2021-02-15T14:06:59Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:07:21Z holycow: #lispcafe 2021-02-15T14:07:28Z drl_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-15T14:07:34Z holycow: sorry about the noise 2021-02-15T14:07:38Z drl_ joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:08:38Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-15T14:09:32Z beach: s/boot/book/ 2021-02-15T14:09:34Z beach: *sigh* 2021-02-15T14:10:40Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:11:36Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-15T14:13:26Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:15:38Z beach: zxq2: The subject is a bit off topic for this channel, though. 2021-02-15T14:17:43Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:19:20Z drl_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-15T14:20:44Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:20:47Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T14:25:09Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-15T14:25:30Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:26:05Z nij: zxq2: This post clicked for me: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/51246/can-someone-explain-the-y-combinator 2021-02-15T14:27:02Z nij: IMO don't try to learn to intuition. Instead, learn the rules of lambda calculus. And pick a Y-comb version of "factorial", expand it yourself and see why you get (fact 3) = 6. 2021-02-15T14:27:31Z nij: Many blogposts sell on "explaning it".. but unfortunately some syntatical/algebraic experience can be only acquired by doing it. 2021-02-15T14:27:35Z ym joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:28:00Z nij: Slightly related, supporting my point, the MU puzzle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MU_puzzle 2021-02-15T14:28:35Z nij: In short, you can discover a lot of things by playing with the puzzle. And while you try to explain the experience to people, people will most likely be confused. 2021-02-15T14:28:53Z nij: But as beach said, it's a bit offtopic here. So I'll cut it here :/ 2021-02-15T14:29:01Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:29:47Z zxq2: yeah that's kind of what i've been doing. i've been experimenting with the U-combinator (lambda (f) (f f)), which is a bit simpler, in racket. 2021-02-15T14:30:08Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:31:32Z Josh_2: Hi 2021-02-15T14:31:50Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:32:33Z nij: zxq2 make it a goal to compute (fact 3) = 6 by your hand! 2021-02-15T14:32:41Z nij: After that you'd understand! 2021-02-15T14:32:41Z zxq2: i've been watching a lecture where lisp features are built from scratch using primitives from the lambda calclus (e.g. church numerals, etc). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSnZzunIELs 2021-02-15T14:33:05Z zxq2: everything else clicked pretty quickly. 2021-02-15T14:33:28Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2302#2302 can someone take a look at this? The top is the C and the bottom is my attempt at sending the correct args in CL, I don't get any errors when I run the function it just blocks and never returns 2021-02-15T14:33:29Z jasom: flip214: oh, I missed that you needed an in-ram stream. https://edicl.github.io/flexi-streams/ 2021-02-15T14:33:39Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-15T14:34:47Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-15T14:35:41Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-15T14:36:10Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:36:15Z nij: A question: can I call a method f on a Lisp object x in a succinct syntax like `x.f` in python? 2021-02-15T14:37:00Z beach: Luckily no. And you don't call objects in Common Lisp, you call generic functions. 2021-02-15T14:37:01Z jasom: Josh_2: that's not how I would do it, and you can't rely on CFFI's automatic conversion of strings for *output* pointers. 2021-02-15T14:37:25Z Josh_2: jasom: how would you do it? this is my first time messing with CFFI 2021-02-15T14:37:44Z beach: Er, I mean, you don't call METHODS in Common Lisp. 2021-02-15T14:38:21Z theothornhill: nij: Isn't (f x) pretty succinct? 2021-02-15T14:38:55Z beach: nij: That syntax is really bizarre, because it distinguishes one particular argument from the others. CLOS did a great job of fixing that problem. 2021-02-15T14:39:09Z nij: theothornhill: I might run into things like "a.b.c.d.e.f.g" 2021-02-15T14:39:24Z theothornhill: nij: oof 2021-02-15T14:39:39Z nij: Bases: sage.algebras.quantum_groups.representations.CyclicRepresentation e.g. https://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/reference/algebras/sage/algebras/quantum_groups/representations.html 2021-02-15T14:39:41Z beach: nij: Then I would say you have a problem with software architecture. 2021-02-15T14:40:14Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-15T14:40:18Z nij: beach: ? it's not about programming but math 2021-02-15T14:40:23Z nij: but how does CLOS solve this? 2021-02-15T14:40:24Z theothornhill: nij: you could use arrows though: (-> g (f) (e)) etc 2021-02-15T14:40:31Z beach: nij: Solve what? 2021-02-15T14:40:35Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:40:42Z nij: uh.. i mean "fixing that problem" 2021-02-15T14:40:52Z beach: What problem? 2021-02-15T14:40:57Z beach: I see no problem. 2021-02-15T14:41:04Z jackdaniel: nij: in common lisp methods live in a generic function, not in an object 2021-02-15T14:41:12Z nij: You said there's a problem solved by CLOS 3 min ago. 2021-02-15T14:41:37Z nij: theothornhill: ah right.. that's a bit better 2021-02-15T14:41:51Z theothornhill: nij: I can sympathize though with the nested accessor thing. Same thing with `aref` and arrays, but that's just lisp 2021-02-15T14:41:59Z beach: Oh, that. The problem where one argument is distinguished. It solves it by not distinguishing between the arguments, so (f x y z) rather than x.f(y,z) 2021-02-15T14:42:20Z nij: i see 2021-02-15T14:42:26Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga) 2021-02-15T14:42:58Z nij: or just use #'reduce i guess 2021-02-15T14:43:09Z jackdaniel: how about compose? 2021-02-15T14:43:10Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:43:19Z theothornhill: annoying to write (aref (aref (aref x 3) 2) 1) 2021-02-15T14:43:29Z jackdaniel: well ,scratch that 2021-02-15T14:43:33Z nij: jackdaniel: in lisp2 you need #'funcall which is annoying 2021-02-15T14:43:41Z jackdaniel: what is annoying about funcall? 2021-02-15T14:43:57Z nij: x.f.g.h.j.k.l should be written like (reduce :init x '(f g h j k l)) 2021-02-15T14:44:13Z jackdaniel: (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (compose 'list 'list)) 2021-02-15T14:44:19Z beach: nij: In languages with that bizarre syntax, a method can specialize only to the first distinguished parameter. In CLOS, a method can specialize to any subset of the required parameters. 2021-02-15T14:44:20Z nij: jackdaniel: it's long and not elegant.. probably i should create a user read macro for that myself 2021-02-15T14:44:27Z jackdaniel: there, now: > (foo 15) ; --> ((15)) 2021-02-15T14:45:00Z nij: beach: I sort of got your point 2021-02-15T14:45:18Z theothornhill: nij: you don't need a reader macro though. You could just create a normal macro 2021-02-15T14:45:28Z theothornhill: also, you could check out rutils 2021-02-15T14:45:33Z _death: theothornhill: so write (naref x 3 2 1) .. we have procedural abstraction 2021-02-15T14:45:34Z nij wishes common-lisp were lisp 1. 2021-02-15T14:45:51Z Josh_2: use scheme then 2021-02-15T14:45:52Z jackdaniel: what an attracious wish ,p 2021-02-15T14:45:57Z theothornhill: _death: :-O 2021-02-15T14:45:58Z beach is grateful it is not. 2021-02-15T14:46:23Z nij: wait why? isn't lisp 1 clearer syntactically? 2021-02-15T14:46:30Z nij: s/clear/clean 2021-02-15T14:46:39Z theothornhill: _death: ah misread. Yeah, I know and have sometimes, but now I thought you meant it was builtin :) 2021-02-15T14:46:55Z _death: theothornhill: everything is built in once you build it in :) 2021-02-15T14:46:55Z jackdaniel: it is more minimal, but minimal doesn't always mean clear 2021-02-15T14:47:01Z beach: nij: Only for the case that Lisp-1 people like to emphasize. 2021-02-15T14:47:17Z theothornhill: _death: :) 2021-02-15T14:47:21Z pfdietz: Lisp 1 requires you keep track of the interference between the two namespaces. 2021-02-15T14:47:42Z pfdietz: (the two namespaces that you have smashed together into one namespace) 2021-02-15T14:48:00Z nij: Why are there two? 2021-02-15T14:48:05Z theothornhill: Also, the explicit funcalling at least makes it very explicit that you are calling a function. 2021-02-15T14:48:14Z nij: There shouldn't be any distinguishment between a normal object and a function.. 2021-02-15T14:48:15Z theothornhill: and that can be nice 2021-02-15T14:48:15Z beach: nij: Actually, there are more like 7 2021-02-15T14:48:20Z Josh_2: I think that CL has more explicit syntax because functions and variables don't share the same namespace 2021-02-15T14:48:40Z jackdaniel: every time you create a hash table you define a new namespace 2021-02-15T14:49:25Z pfdietz: Because variables and functions are typically used in different ways.   The crossovers are not very common, so the syntactic overhead of that crossing is small.  I remember looking at the frequency of occurence of FUNCALL in Quicklisp systems -- just 0.4% of lines. 2021-02-15T14:49:26Z ecraven: ah, sometimes I envy Lisp, that you can just call a variable `list' and don't break anything.. then I envy Scheme, that you can just (apply foo params), and don't need to think about what foo might be... 2021-02-15T14:49:41Z pfdietz: This may be a CL style thing, at least in part. 2021-02-15T14:49:43Z nij: I think it stems in the mindset whether functions should be treated as completely first-clsas or not. 2021-02-15T14:49:59Z beach: nij: That's an orthogonal issue. 2021-02-15T14:50:06Z theothornhill: jackdaniel: Oh? What do you mean? 2021-02-15T14:50:29Z jackdaniel: theothornhill: what is a namespace? 2021-02-15T14:50:47Z jackdaniel: a mapping from a name to a value 2021-02-15T14:50:52Z theothornhill: Right now I'm thinking I have no idea :P 2021-02-15T14:50:55Z jackdaniel: (for a generous definition of 'name') 2021-02-15T14:51:17Z pfdietz: So, if one were to imagine a CL that was a Lisp-1, one would have to think about shadowing function names at every variable binding.   I contend the mental overhead of that would be worse than having to remember to use explicit #' and funcall/apply. 2021-02-15T14:52:32Z beach: nij: I can think of the following built-in namespaces: variables, functions, classes, method combinations, types, packages. But I probably forgot a few. 2021-02-15T14:52:58Z jackdaniel: what I find a little ugly in cl is the fact, that lexical and special variables are not in separate namespaces, but that's practically solved with a naming convention 2021-02-15T14:53:02Z pfdietz: block names, tagbody tags 2021-02-15T14:53:12Z beach: pfdietz: Thanks. 2021-02-15T14:53:48Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-15T14:53:58Z nij: pfdietz: why would one have to think about shadowing funciton names then? 2021-02-15T14:54:10Z pfdietz: jackdaniel: yes, that's a blemish.   It's probably historical, from when all variables were dynamically bound. 2021-02-15T14:54:32Z pfdietz: nij:  ask yourself why scheme programs have variables named "lst". 2021-02-15T14:54:57Z nij: pfdietz: the only lisp i "know" are cl and elisp :-( 2021-02-15T14:55:07Z nij: so i don't really know the practical problem of lisp-1 2021-02-15T14:55:18Z nij: i just think it's more elegant from a math person's view 2021-02-15T14:55:37Z jasom: okay, may be too early, but I can't solve the plaster captcha 2021-02-15T14:55:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-15T14:55:58Z jasom is going to write a program to solve a captcha that he, himself, can't solve :/ 2021-02-15T14:55:59Z beach: nij: The main purpose of Common Lisp was to be a practical programming tool. Not to be elegant. 2021-02-15T14:55:59Z Josh_2: jasom: c&p your code you can just refresh 2021-02-15T14:55:59Z pfdietz: nij: in a Lisp-1, if you have a variable with the same name as a global function, you can't call that function via that name in the scope of that variable.  In a Lisp-2, you can. 2021-02-15T14:56:15Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T14:56:20Z nij: beach: I get that. I'm still struggling to find out why lisp-1 fails to be practical. 2021-02-15T14:56:31Z theothornhill: Does it? 2021-02-15T14:56:46Z jasom: Josh_2: attempt here: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2302#2303 2021-02-15T14:56:48Z nij: pfdietz: Then don't name the var and the function by the same name.. why not @@? 2021-02-15T14:57:07Z nij: It's still going back to the mental state that functions and vars are different.. isn't it? 2021-02-15T14:57:25Z pfdietz: nij: so you have to keep track of what the names are.  This is the mental overhead I referred to. 2021-02-15T14:57:30Z flip214: jasom: sorry, but that link alone doesn't help - I've seen that already. 2021-02-15T14:57:39Z flip214: https://edicl.github.io/flexi-streams/#make-in-memory-output-stream says "a subtype of octet", so no chars. 2021-02-15T14:57:41Z jackdaniel: nij: kent pitman made an excellent argument, that verbs and nouns are separate in a spoken language 2021-02-15T14:58:05Z flip214: I've implemented my own stream class that accepts strings, characters, and bytes, but it might be faster some other way?! 2021-02-15T14:58:12Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-15T14:58:14Z jackdaniel: nij: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 2021-02-15T14:58:36Z jasom: Josh_2: Always comment your C function prototypes with which are input and which are output values for sanity. It's obvious when thinking about it, but the mental overhead is always maxed out when thinking about C for me. 2021-02-15T14:58:39Z Josh_2: jasom: that worked! 2021-02-15T14:58:44Z pfdietz: Anyway, what is the practical benefit of this "elegance"?   It seems like useless posturing rather than something of value. 2021-02-15T14:58:45Z nij: jackdaniel - but verb can be naturally makes into noun and be treated like a noun 2021-02-15T14:58:46Z jasom: flip214: make-flexi-stream needs to go on top 2021-02-15T14:59:00Z nij: jackdaniel: OH ok in Lisp that's `#'` 2021-02-15T14:59:37Z jasom: flip214: you need an in-memory binary stream (many systems including flexi-streams provide that) and you need bivalent streams on top of a binary stream (many systems including flexi-streams provide that) 2021-02-15T14:59:48Z Nilby: lisp2 is really just a practical thing for writing large & complex programs. 2021-02-15T15:00:02Z jasom: you can't do bivalent streams on top of most character streams, since most character i/o formats are not 8-bit clean 2021-02-15T15:00:16Z nij: Nilby: I see. 2021-02-15T15:00:44Z Nilby: everyone can agree lisp1 is simpler, but try writing big things and then see if you want lisp2 2021-02-15T15:00:57Z jasom: even latin-1 streams may not be 8-bit clean on e.g. windows due to line-ending translations 2021-02-15T15:01:16Z nij: i see 2021-02-15T15:02:01Z nij: 'x refers to the variable x, #'x refers to the function x, ... what expressions refer to the class, type, method.. x ? 2021-02-15T15:02:01Z jasom: Josh_2: do note the comment that if the output picked data is very large you will corrupt memory on at least sbcl, since CFFI unconditionally stack allocates in with-foreign-pointer-as-string on at least sbcl 2021-02-15T15:02:23Z _death: jackdaniel: funny, I remembered it that way https://www.dreamsongs.com/Separation.html 2021-02-15T15:03:08Z jasom: nij: 'x refers to the symbol x; #'x refers to the function associated with the symbol x in the particular lexical and dynamic environment in which #'x is evaluated. 2021-02-15T15:03:20Z pfdietz: Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" 2021-02-15T15:04:43Z nij: jasom: Ah yes. I was confused. Thanks :-) 2021-02-15T15:05:02Z jasom: nij: (find-class 'x) will refer to the class named by the symbol x 2021-02-15T15:05:09Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-15T15:05:12Z Josh_2: jasom: so I should do I check to make sure the password isn't very long? 2021-02-15T15:05:38Z Josh_2: ie not more than 64 characters etc 2021-02-15T15:05:57Z jasom: Josh_2: that depends on how safe you want to be. A passphrase is ulikely to be more than 1k I would say. Not sure how big of a stack lisps use, but I would guess 1k is within sanity 2021-02-15T15:05:59Z _death: nij: #'x is just a shorthand for (function x) so if the hash is too noisy, you can just use the latter.. I think pjb used to do that 2021-02-15T15:06:35Z jasom: Josh_2: I have in the past written my own version of with-foreign-pointer that heap allocates; you may just want to do the same for strings 2021-02-15T15:06:37Z nij: jasom: _death: thanks :) 2021-02-15T15:07:56Z jasom: Josh_2: I would be at least as concerned about the output size being too large, but I don't know how big these objects are 2021-02-15T15:08:29Z Josh_2: I think the output is constant 2021-02-15T15:08:44Z Josh_2: 438 characters 2021-02-15T15:08:46Z jasom: Josh_2: oh really? That makes it a lot easier then 2021-02-15T15:08:59Z Josh_2: I just tried two different passphrases and they both have a constant output size 2021-02-15T15:09:11Z jasom: Josh_2: what about two different "account" objects? 2021-02-15T15:09:18Z jasom: Josh_2: that's what I would expect to change the size 2021-02-15T15:09:22Z Josh_2: I tried two different account objects 2021-02-15T15:10:22Z jasom: great; I would probably just check for a sane passphrase length; 64 characters is perhaps too short, I use passphrases that are longer occasionally. 128 or 256 is probably fine. 2021-02-15T15:11:10Z Josh_2: still the same 438 2021-02-15T15:11:15Z jasom: Josh_2: default control-stack-size on sbcl is 2MB 2021-02-15T15:11:32Z citizenajb joined #lisp 2021-02-15T15:12:42Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-15T15:12:50Z jasom: Josh_2: there doesn't seem to be a way to query it (at least a search of the sbcl manual index for "stack" didn't show up anything useful 2021-02-15T15:13:17Z jasom: but like I said, if you're allocating less than 1k total on the stack you're almost certainly fine on non-embedded systems 2021-02-15T15:13:51Z jasom: and "almost certainly fine" is about as good as you get when interacting with many foreign libraries... 2021-02-15T15:19:33Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-15T15:19:37Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-02-15T15:28:43Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T15:29:16Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2021-02-15T15:29:45Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-15T15:31:14Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-15T15:33:14Z maier joined #lisp 2021-02-15T15:38:16Z citizenajb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-15T15:38:28Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T15:39:37Z notzmv` is now known as notzmv 2021-02-15T15:39:52Z notzmv quit (Changing host) 2021-02-15T15:39:53Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-15T15:48:01Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-15T15:48:31Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-15T15:49:15Z jmercouris: hello everyone 2021-02-15T15:52:45Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-15T15:53:08Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T15:56:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T16:01:18Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-15T16:02:38Z Bourne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T16:09:53Z beach: Hello jmercouris. 2021-02-15T16:11:22Z jmercouris: thank you! 2021-02-15T16:12:36Z ebrasca: Hello jmercouris! 2021-02-15T16:12:54Z jmercouris: hello ebrasca 2021-02-15T16:12:58Z Josh_2: Hi 2021-02-15T16:13:05Z jmercouris: hello Josh_2 2021-02-15T16:13:24Z Josh_2: jasom: how do I go about deallocating the memory once I have a returned foreign object? 2021-02-15T16:13:34Z jmercouris: Josh_2: free 2021-02-15T16:14:26Z jmercouris: Josh_2: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#free_002dtranslated_002dobject 2021-02-15T16:14:41Z Josh_2: no no I mean when 2021-02-15T16:14:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T16:14:49Z jmercouris: what do you mean? 2021-02-15T16:14:57Z jmercouris: when do you decide to deallocate? 2021-02-15T16:15:24Z Josh_2: See that example function do I just free after I have my returned result or do I need to free when I am 100% done with the underlying object? 2021-02-15T16:15:37Z phoe: the latter 2021-02-15T16:15:48Z phoe: you must not free an object that you are going to use at any time in the future 2021-02-15T16:15:56Z phoe: but then again! depends on what exactly you return 2021-02-15T16:16:12Z jmercouris: as always the answer is; it depends 2021-02-15T16:16:15Z phoe: do you return a foreign pointer, or some Lisp object that was constructed based on the foreign data and is therefore allocated in GC-managed memory? 2021-02-15T16:16:24Z phoe: in the former case you must not free it 2021-02-15T16:16:45Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-15T16:16:48Z phoe: in the latter case your code should have already freed it for you because the memory was allocated with dynamic extent if the foreign wrapper code is worth its salt 2021-02-15T16:16:54Z Josh_2: right, in this case I believe it is a pointer 2021-02-15T16:17:04Z Josh_2: so does that mean I have to keep track of all the pointers I allocate? 2021-02-15T16:17:04Z phoe: so you must manage its lifetime yourself 2021-02-15T16:17:08Z phoe: yes 2021-02-15T16:17:12Z Josh_2: frick 2021-02-15T16:17:13Z phoe: welcome to manual memory management 2021-02-15T16:17:16Z Josh_2: yes what a pain 2021-02-15T16:17:25Z phoe: or use dynamic extent wherever you can 2021-02-15T16:19:10Z admich joined #lisp 2021-02-15T16:19:48Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2302#2303 if we take the example that jasom wrote for me then I would need to keep track of all the pointers allocated within pickle so that when I'm done with account I can free them? 2021-02-15T16:21:29Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-02-15T16:21:47Z warweasle: Anyone use lisp for algotrading? 2021-02-15T16:33:48Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-15T16:35:40Z jmercouris: You could also write your own wrapper that handles the memory management 2021-02-15T16:35:55Z jmercouris: That’s often a lot cleaner than trying to handle it within your actual project 2021-02-15T16:36:03Z jmercouris: Usually memory leaks are then handled 2021-02-15T16:36:46Z jmercouris: warweasle: I think you’ll find a lot more python and r suitable for the task 2021-02-15T16:37:10Z jmercouris: There is going to be very limited support in lisp, especially for interfacing with the trading platforms 2021-02-15T16:37:43Z Josh_2: I know someone who wrote his trading platform in Clojure 2021-02-15T16:39:26Z warweasle: jmercouris: Yeah... I'm seeing a lack of libraries... Would have to write my own and that would take a while. 2021-02-15T16:39:56Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-15T16:41:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-15T16:54:23Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-15T16:54:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-15T16:55:15Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-15T16:56:18Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-15T16:57:02Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-15T16:57:56Z admich quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T16:58:22Z mfiano: Could someone please remind me how to get at a method's function object with the MOP? t's been a while since I had to do this... 2021-02-15T16:59:44Z phoe: c2mop:method-function but I don't know what sort of arguments this accepts 2021-02-15T16:59:47Z phoe: mop method-function 2021-02-15T16:59:47Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-function.html 2021-02-15T16:59:56Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-15T17:00:21Z phoe: oh right, arguments and next methods 2021-02-15T17:00:55Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-15T17:02:03Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-02-15T17:04:38Z long4mud quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-15T17:05:39Z mfiano: That's what I tried, but I must be doing something wrong 2021-02-15T17:06:06Z mfiano: I tried to view the disassembly with: (disassemble (c2mop:method-function (find-method #'foo nil '(bar t)))) 2021-02-15T17:06:22Z mfiano: But I must not be looking at the right object, because it never changes even when I change the method body 2021-02-15T17:09:38Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-15T17:11:30Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-02-15T17:11:30Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-15T17:16:19Z scymtym: mfiano: (disassemble (sb-pcl::%method-function-fast-function (sb-mop:method-function (find-method #'sb-mop:ensure-class-using-class '() '(null t))))) seems to do the trick for my SBCL version 2021-02-15T17:17:23Z maier quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-15T17:17:37Z scymtym: (and disassembling the return value of METHOD-FUNCTION prints the disassembly for two functions where the second one corresponds to the above) 2021-02-15T17:18:33Z mfiano: I can't get that to work with mine 2021-02-15T17:18:39Z mfiano: Let me play around a bit 2021-02-15T17:20:36Z scymtym: seems to have been changed around 2019-08 2021-02-15T17:20:54Z mfiano: Ok I got it to work, but 2021-02-15T17:21:09Z mfiano: It's returning the same exact disassembly no matter if i change and recompile the method 2021-02-15T17:21:53Z mfiano: Maybe I'm doing something wrong... 2021-02-15T17:21:57Z mfiano: I can make a gist for you 2021-02-15T17:22:25Z scymtym: sure 2021-02-15T17:23:32Z mfiano: Ok now it works, ha 2021-02-15T17:23:44Z mfiano: Nevermind, and thank you. Any idea how to do this portably with c2mop? 2021-02-15T17:26:28Z scymtym: no, but as i said, for me, DISASSEMBLE outputs the disassembly you are looking for after the one you don't want. so maybe SEARCH and SUBSEQ to get the relevant part of the output? 2021-02-15T17:26:49Z mfiano: That is not what I experience 2021-02-15T17:27:07Z mfiano: The disassembly is always the same when doing it on METHOD-FUNCTION's return value 2021-02-15T17:27:15Z mfiano: Unlike the sbcl internal way 2021-02-15T17:30:18Z scymtym: hm, maybe my SBCL version is new enough to exhibit some changed behavior 2021-02-15T17:30:26Z scymtym: no idea in that case, sorry 2021-02-15T17:30:27Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/93c93362786089a670c7b48534d698de 2021-02-15T17:31:11Z mfiano: oh you're right actually 2021-02-15T17:31:24Z mfiano: Sorry for the confusion 2021-02-15T17:31:33Z mfiano: I was assuming the code size included both 2021-02-15T17:31:43Z mfiano: the header at the top i mean 2021-02-15T17:32:06Z 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joined #lisp 2021-02-15T23:00:54Z srandon111: Josh_2, and then ? 2021-02-15T23:01:09Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-02-15T23:03:58Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-15T23:04:09Z warweasle quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-15T23:05:20Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T23:06:56Z surabax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-15T23:09:42Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-15T23:12:48Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-15T23:17:57Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-15T23:18:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-15T23:20:33Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-15T23:24:58Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-15T23:25:27Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-15T23:29:02Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T23:29:33Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-15T23:33:46Z mmmattyx joined #lisp 2021-02-15T23:42:40Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-02-15T23:47:41Z nitrix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T23:48:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-15T23:48:29Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-15T23:49:25Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-15T23:52:09Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-15T23:54:08Z nitrix joined #lisp 2021-02-15T23:55:08Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T00:03:25Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-16T00:06:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T00:16:40Z srandon111 quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-16T00:25:32Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-16T00:26:16Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T00:30:36Z mister_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T00:35:31Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-16T00:43:36Z dbotton: Does anyone know a function that can turn say ".." Into the full absolute path for ".."? 2021-02-16T00:44:34Z thmprover quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T00:47:22Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-02-16T00:49:27Z Xach: dbotton: truename is one 2021-02-16T00:51:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-16T00:51:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-02-16T00:51:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-16T00:51:39Z dbotton: That looks like will work 2021-02-16T00:52:04Z Xach: also known as clarissa-oakes 2021-02-16T00:56:01Z dbotton: ? 2021-02-16T00:56:10Z ozzloy: i'm stuck on reading user input with common lisp 2021-02-16T00:56:31Z ozzloy: https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2077611 i try to store a fact into a hash-table, then later i try to read a key from the user 2021-02-16T00:56:43Z ozzloy: and i'm unable to do that. 2021-02-16T00:57:35Z ozzloy: how do i read a form from user input and use that as a key in a hashtable? 2021-02-16T00:57:36Z Xach: ozzloy: do not put a ' in front of the user input. 2021-02-16T00:57:52Z ozzloy: really? 2021-02-16T00:58:05Z Xach: ozzloy: '(is_a_dog rover) reads as (QUOTE (IS_A_DOG ROVER)) which is not a key in the table. 2021-02-16T00:58:15Z Xach: but (is_a_dog rover) reads as (IS_A_DOG ROVER), which is. 2021-02-16T00:58:50Z Xach: ozzloy: in the REPL, the key difference is the E step - evaluation. (QUOTE (IS_A_DOG ROVER)) evaluates to a key, but is not a key before evaluation. 2021-02-16T00:59:47Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-16T01:00:23Z ozzloy: makes sense 2021-02-16T01:00:34Z ozzloy: read doesn't e 2021-02-16T01:00:43Z ozzloy: it just reads 2021-02-16T01:01:32Z Xach: yep 2021-02-16T01:01:56Z ozzloy: i am new to common lisp 2021-02-16T01:02:03Z Xach: happy to help if i can 2021-02-16T01:02:09Z ozzloy: also to reading forms at runtime from the user 2021-02-16T01:02:29Z Xach: I was going to guess you were reading strings and not using a hash-table test that works with strings 2021-02-16T01:02:40Z Xach: that's an easy one to trip up on, too 2021-02-16T01:03:09Z veera quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-16T01:09:59Z dbotton: Xach what is clarissa-oakes? 2021-02-16T01:10:53Z dbotton: Btw worked great, just added working save as and open dialogs to my desktop abstraction for clog 2021-02-16T01:11:36Z Xach: dbotton: it is a very roundabout reference to the fact that the 15th Aubrey/Maturin novel was published as "The Truelove" in the USA but "Clarissa Oakes" elsewhere. 2021-02-16T01:11:38Z mister_m joined #lisp 2021-02-16T01:11:50Z mfiano: Hey Xach 2021-02-16T01:12:03Z mfiano: I managed to figure out that defstruct issue. Just a misunderstanding of the HyperSpec 2021-02-16T01:12:13Z Xach: mfiano: time to blog about it? 2021-02-16T01:12:23Z dbotton: Ah, never ready the series. Worth while? 2021-02-16T01:12:41Z mfiano: "If :conc-name is nil or no argument is supplied, then no prefix is used; then the names of the reader functions are the same as the slot names." 2021-02-16T01:13:14Z Xach: dbotton: i enjoy it a lot, i like old timey boat things and it is certainly that 2021-02-16T01:13:25Z mfiano: Whenever I see "name" I read that as symbol-name, not symbol. So you effectively redefine a function in another package where :include'ing a struct in another package with :conc-name of NIL. The solution is to use :conc-name "" or || 2021-02-16T01:13:55Z dbotton: Xach, I'll add it to me list. thanks 2021-02-16T01:13:56Z Xach: mfiano: ah! 2021-02-16T01:14:25Z Xach: mfiano: it occurred to me last night that i usually see "" for empty conc-names but i thought NIL was just another way to say it. i should have dug harder. 2021-02-16T01:14:49Z Xach was too tired from thinking up nautical novel crossover lisp puns 2021-02-16T01:14:49Z mfiano: NIL is special cased to mean something else entirely. I learned that the hard way after several hours of wtf 2021-02-16T01:15:33Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-16T01:15:38Z mfiano: Finds it scary that defstruct has semantics for monkey patching things not in its own package though 2021-02-16T01:16:30Z ozzloy: thanks Xach 2021-02-16T01:17:17Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-16T01:19:00Z Xach: ozzloy: works as expected now? 2021-02-16T01:27:09Z red-dot joined #lisp 2021-02-16T01:38:55Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-16T01:42:01Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-16T01:42:26Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T01:54:50Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T01:58:36Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-16T02:10:30Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-16T02:12:29Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-16T02:15:34Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-16T02:18:59Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-16T02:26:32Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-16T02:27:02Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-16T02:29:36Z cchristiansen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T02:32:21Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-16T02:33:11Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T02:33:32Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-16T02:35:54Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-16T02:40:07Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-16T02:49:43Z elderK joined #lisp 2021-02-16T02:56:40Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-16T02:58:19Z citizenajb left #lisp 2021-02-16T03:01:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T03:02:05Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-16T03:02:06Z REDman2k1 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T03:02:52Z dbotton: Xach here is a pic with the working dialog https://rabbibotton.github.io/images/clog-demo3.png 2021-02-16T03:05:13Z dbotton: I spent more time than expected on the desktop deal. I keep delaying the database stuff I plan next 2021-02-16T03:07:20Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-02-16T03:09:55Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-16T03:11:20Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T03:24:01Z ym joined #lisp 2021-02-16T03:31:30Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-02-16T03:36:30Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T03:37:01Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-16T03:37:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T03:37:51Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-16T03:42:19Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-16T03:43:48Z ozzloy: Xach, sure does! 2021-02-16T03:44:08Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-16T03:46:51Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-16T03:51:29Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T03:54:14Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-16T03:54:24Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-16T03:57:51Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-16T04:01:50Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-16T04:02:40Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-16T04:03:19Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-16T04:04:31Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-16T04:04:32Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-16T04:21:59Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-16T04:29:32Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T04:31:56Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-02-16T04:35:18Z asarch: One very very stupid question: I do a query in a PostgreSQL and its result is parsed and stored with (push ... stored-elements) 2021-02-16T04:36:00Z asarch: Then, from a POST message from a HTML from I get the list of new elements selected and also stored with (push ... selected-elements) 2021-02-16T04:36:32Z asarch: So, stored-elements is (1 5 3) and selected-elements is (9 8 6 4 3 2). 2021-02-16T04:37:37Z asarch: If I do (set-difference stored-elements selected-elements) I get (3 5 1) and if I do vice versa (set-difference selected-elements stored-elements) I get (2 3 4 6 8 9) 2021-02-16T04:37:39Z asarch: Why? 2021-02-16T04:39:28Z asarch: However, if I do (set-difference '(1 5 3) '(9 8 6 4 3 2)) in SBCL REPL I get (5 1) and if I do vice versa (set-difference '(9 8 6 4 3 2) '(1 5 3)) I get (2 4 6 8 9) 2021-02-16T04:39:51Z beach: Yes, you have 3 in common, so it should be excluded in both cases. 2021-02-16T04:39:54Z asarch: What's wrong? :-( 2021-02-16T04:40:21Z beach: You probably have the wrong idea of the contents of those two sets. 2021-02-16T04:40:50Z beach: Do you really have sets of integers? 2021-02-16T04:40:58Z asarch: Should I use (parse-int ...) to store every element in the list? 2021-02-16T04:41:58Z asarch: I don't know. Let me see.. 2021-02-16T04:42:22Z beach: Well, that is what you claimed. I just wanted you to confirm. 2021-02-16T04:44:02Z asarch: "The value 3 is not of type STRING when binding STRING" 2021-02-16T04:44:11Z asarch: It seems it is already an integer 2021-02-16T04:44:29Z beach: Then you have a buggy Common Lisp implementation. 2021-02-16T04:44:59Z beach: ... which I don't believe, so there is something wrong with your description of the situation. 2021-02-16T04:45:26Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-16T04:45:47Z asarch: "This is SBCL 2.1.1-1.1-suse, an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp." 2021-02-16T04:46:23Z asarch: This is the part of a web application to store the list of animes 2021-02-16T04:46:45Z asarch: Every anime has a name and a url to watch it 2021-02-16T04:46:50Z beach: I don't know what an anime is, but you said they are lists of integers. 2021-02-16T04:47:15Z asarch: This part is where you add genres to the anime: Hentai, Ecchi, Romance, Adventure, Gore, etc 2021-02-16T04:47:42Z beach: Look, you said that you have two lists of integers, and the calculation of the set difference is wrong. 2021-02-16T04:47:51Z beach: Why are you now talking about other kinds of objects? 2021-02-16T04:48:11Z asarch: Every genre is stored in a PostgreSQL table so using a n-to-n relation you can set the genres for a specific anime 2021-02-16T04:48:23Z beach: I give up. 2021-02-16T04:48:26Z asarch: *relationship 2021-02-16T04:49:08Z asarch: The 'stored-elements' represent all the genres selected for a specific anime 2021-02-16T04:49:40Z asarch: And 'selected-element' represents when you want to change list of all those genres of the anime 2021-02-16T04:49:46Z beach: Let me try this again. Is the value of stored-elements a list of integers? 2021-02-16T04:49:52Z Nilby: maybe selected-elements is nil? 2021-02-16T04:50:19Z asarch: beach, yes. All the genres are stored by its numerical representation 2021-02-16T04:51:27Z asarch: Nilby, no, it isn't because (format t "selected-elements: ~a~%" selected-elements) gives (9 8 6 4 3 2) 2021-02-16T04:51:53Z asarch: So, I actually have both lists 2021-02-16T04:52:10Z beach: Don't use ~a. It hides things. 2021-02-16T04:52:30Z beach: asarch: Then you must be using a different Common Lisp implementation for your first experiment, and your second one. And the first one is buggy. 2021-02-16T04:53:02Z asarch: What should I use instead ~a? 2021-02-16T04:53:19Z beach: ~s 2021-02-16T04:54:49Z beach: Compare (format t "~a" "(1 2 3)") and (format t "~a" '(1 2 3)) 2021-02-16T04:54:55Z beach: What do you see? 2021-02-16T04:55:27Z asarch: stored-elements: (1 5 3), selected-elements: ("8" "6" "4" "3" "2") 2021-02-16T04:55:44Z beach: There you go. 2021-02-16T04:55:46Z asarch: $%$%#%#!!! 2021-02-16T04:55:52Z asarch: THANK YOU!!! 2021-02-16T04:55:59Z beach: So they are not integers the way you have claimed for half an hour. 2021-02-16T04:56:02Z asarch: THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! 2021-02-16T04:56:06Z carkh: haha 2021-02-16T04:56:20Z carkh: morning 2021-02-16T04:56:38Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-16T04:56:45Z beach: Hello carkh. 2021-02-16T04:56:56Z asarch: I didn't know ~s was better than ~a, I though ~a was for ~Alll 2021-02-16T04:57:13Z beach: It is not about "better". 2021-02-16T04:57:20Z beach: It is about what information you want. 2021-02-16T04:57:53Z carkh: i've been reading on yesterday's discussion about lisp 1 vs lisp 2, they're just different local minima in a design space 2021-02-16T04:58:14Z carkh: i don't think it's about "programming in the large" at all 2021-02-16T04:59:13Z carkh: or getting bitten by the big bad namespace confusion 2021-02-16T05:00:11Z carkh: been doing clojure the last 10 years, been confused a whole 5 minutes over that time about shadowing a function name 2021-02-16T05:00:16Z asarch: Yeah baby! (set-difference stored-elements selected-elements): (5 1), (set-difference selected-elements stored-elements): (2 4 6 8) 2021-02-16T05:01:11Z asarch: Dōmo arigatōgozaimashita Beach-sama 2021-02-16T05:01:15Z asarch: :-) 2021-02-16T05:02:52Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:03:56Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-16T05:04:40Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-16T05:04:48Z beach: carkh: Good to know. 2021-02-16T05:05:27Z carkh: but i have a programming in the large question of my own 2021-02-16T05:05:44Z carkh: there was no quicklisp back when i learned CL 2021-02-16T05:06:05Z carkh: and it's a very nice thing to have, it really makes it easier to get started 2021-02-16T05:06:33Z carkh: but how does one go about ensuring build reproducatbility 2021-02-16T05:06:47Z carkh: in the java maven, or maybe npm sense 2021-02-16T05:07:11Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:07:59Z carkh: i mean, how to pin libs versions for a project 2021-02-16T05:12:47Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-16T05:12:52Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:14:35Z carkh: also looks like the correct spelling is "reproducibility" not a native speaker 2021-02-16T05:14:49Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:15:10Z red-dot: Hola everyone. 2021-02-16T05:15:37Z red-dot: Does anyone know if uiop:define-package has the ability to exclude symbols? Or a workaround? 2021-02-16T05:15:48Z red-dot: If it does, I'm not seeing it. 2021-02-16T05:16:13Z red-dot: I'm trying to paper over about 10 packages into a unified interface, most of which I control, but not all, so it's managable. 2021-02-16T05:16:44Z red-dot: There's conduit, and defpackage-plus that seem like they'll do the trick, but I'm hoping I can bend UIOP to the task. 2021-02-16T05:18:07Z holycow: hey all. searching on freenode just shows #lisp, #lispgames and #lispcafe ... isn't there a chan for asking noob lisp questions? 2021-02-16T05:18:45Z dtman34 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-16T05:19:37Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:20:48Z aeth: holycow: #clschool 2021-02-16T05:20:53Z holycow: oh! 2021-02-16T05:21:02Z holycow: thank you 2021-02-16T05:21:46Z aeth: it used to be #clnoobs but there were no ops when Freenode was hit with the spam attacks a while back so that channel is effectively abandoned 2021-02-16T05:21:52Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-16T05:22:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:22:11Z aeth: if "noob lisp" was referring to that channel and not just a coincidence 2021-02-16T05:22:35Z holycow: total coinkydink 2021-02-16T05:22:59Z aeth: cool coincidence, then 2021-02-16T05:23:39Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-16T05:23:50Z holycow: heh i'm actually spending time trying to use cl so it's time to start asking dumb questions. that was the channel i was looking for, people here have mentioned it over the years. 2021-02-16T05:23:56Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T05:24:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:26:08Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-16T05:27:15Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:30:56Z housel joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:35:33Z red-dot: If anyone is following, it looks like defpackage-plus is a bit fragile when it comes to redefining packages (but so is cl:defpackage). That said, it does seem to work well a use case like this. Not all that popular though. A github search only turned up two pages of hits for it in asd files. 2021-02-16T05:36:53Z red-dot: no package-local-nicknames though... 2021-02-16T05:37:16Z red-dot: Opps, it does have it. 2021-02-16T05:44:16Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:44:37Z Nilby: I get by with plain old defpackage for about 300 packages. It ain't much, but it's honest work. 2021-02-16T05:44:43Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:45:27Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-16T05:47:57Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-16T05:48:38Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:49:42Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-16T05:51:42Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:52:53Z OlCe` joined #lisp 2021-02-16T05:57:05Z red-dot: 300 packages? That's a lot of symbols to type out and manage, or do you do it programatically? I thought about that, but even programatically like :use-reexport does is going to require managing the exceptions individually. That's why I'm hoping for an equivalent for :use-reexport :foo-package :except :symbol-a :symbol-b, or something like that. 2021-02-16T05:58:09Z red-dot: I suppose that fact that defpackage-plus and conduit exist suggests that uiop isn't able to do this in any easy way. 2021-02-16T06:00:29Z red-dot: My hope in posting here was that there was/is a magic uiop incantation that works to the same effect 2021-02-16T06:01:22Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:01:24Z Nilby: Most of hard work is figurin' what the old code should say. I have my goodold donkey emacs haul them symbols on up there in the package for me. 2021-02-16T06:05:17Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-16T06:11:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:11:54Z Nilby: I usually don't re-export, and only export if I really need to. But probably nobody should take advice from a crazy guy with all this twisted junk living in a howl's moving castle of code. Proper old Sbeecil gives me some trouble sometimes about package variance, but I just give 'em a few restarts, handlers, muffles and whatnot. 2021-02-16T06:12:16Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:12:53Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:15:12Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:15:31Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:16:49Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:18:34Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:18:50Z Josh_2` joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:18:54Z dtman34 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:19:36Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:19:48Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:19:52Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:20:03Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:20:05Z nullman joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:20:18Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:20:19Z gabot joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:20:21Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:20:21Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:20:21Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-16T06:20:50Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:21:50Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-16T06:21:53Z akkad joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:22:07Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:25:17Z karstensrage joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:27:26Z holycow: does anyone know if roswell delete packagename actually works/ 2021-02-16T06:28:08Z holycow: i can do roswell isntall githubaccount/packagename but roswell delete githubaccount/packagename says package not isntalled when i can see it diretly in the .roswell directory 2021-02-16T06:34:43Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:35:05Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:38:24Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:42:54Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:43:23Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:53:42Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T06:54:55Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:55:41Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-16T06:59:42Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T07:00:18Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-16T07:07:38Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T07:07:55Z kreyren1 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T07:08:14Z kreyren1: https://github.com/wafelack/orion-lang O.o 2021-02-16T07:08:40Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2021-02-16T07:11:35Z zdm: kreyren1: Never going to touch it because I'm petty and don't like C-syntax in my s-expressions 2021-02-16T07:11:59Z kreyren1: o.o 2021-02-16T07:12:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-16T07:13:29Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-16T07:18:18Z texno joined #lisp 2021-02-16T07:19:16Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-16T07:19:38Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-16T07:20:22Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-16T07:21:14Z entel quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-16T07:24:02Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-16T07:26:27Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-16T07:28:41Z theothor` left #lisp 2021-02-16T07:30:17Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-16T07:32:39Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-16T07:33:36Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T07:35:36Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-16T07:36:24Z beach: kreyren1: Please don't post links without also giving a description of what the potential reader should expect. 2021-02-16T07:36:44Z kreyren1: > Orion lang is a lispy programming language that is strongly and statically typed. - 2021-02-16T07:36:50Z kreyren1: i assume that people have embeds x.x 2021-02-16T07:37:13Z beach: That doesn't sound very "lispy". 2021-02-16T07:38:18Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T07:38:24Z beach: Then, there is no widespread agreement as to what "Lisp" or "Lispy" is, and for some reason, we regularly see people here who desperately want their new home-brew language to be "a Lisp". 2021-02-16T07:38:52Z beach: Either way, #lisp is not for general "Lisp" languages, but for Common Lisp. 2021-02-16T07:42:35Z ecraven: there's ##lisp for "about lisp" 2021-02-16T07:42:49Z beach: Right. 2021-02-16T07:43:41Z beach: I never think of recommending it, because I imagine it wold be full of fruitless discussion about what languages might be "Lisp"s. 2021-02-16T07:45:04Z ecraven: ;) I've asked a bunch of questions relating to old lisps (Interlisp in that case), it has been useful to me ;) 2021-02-16T07:45:17Z beach: Oh, right. That would be interesting. 2021-02-16T07:46:07Z ecraven: jcowan kindly pointed me to interlisp.org, and I fell down that rabbit hole ;) 2021-02-16T07:46:25Z ecraven: might be interesting to find out how good XCL is at actual CL compatibility 2021-02-16T07:46:34Z beach: Heh, I can think of worse rabbit holes to fall into. 2021-02-16T07:49:55Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-16T07:53:34Z zdm: ecraven: thank you for providing me with the rabbit hole as well, interesting 2021-02-16T07:54:11Z ecraven: zdm: I'm just a complete beginner at Medley myself, but feel free to ask anything you're interested in (though maybe in ##lisp ;) 2021-02-16T07:54:45Z zdm: noted 2021-02-16T07:57:34Z entel joined #lisp 2021-02-16T08:02:38Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-16T08:04:45Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T08:07:09Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-16T08:11:10Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-16T08:11:37Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T08:12:31Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-16T08:14:20Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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I've got 10 minutes - what could be some interesting things to show during that time? I was thinking about making a small webapp using hunchentoot and the repl, but not sure really how interesting that is. 2021-02-16T11:24:47Z loke[m]: It can be very interesting. 2021-02-16T11:24:52Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-16T11:25:36Z loke[m]: I did such a presentation, but it was about 1 hour. The most popular part was me showing how I can recompile a function and the web application changes behaviour on the fly without having to redeploy or anything like that. 2021-02-16T11:26:02Z ecraven: ^ that's probably the interesting part, having a SLIME repl open and inspecting and changing things without needing to redeploy 2021-02-16T11:26:23Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-16T11:26:58Z jackdaniel: theothornhill: test interactively a C library via repl (and ffi) 2021-02-16T11:27:00Z theothornhill: I'll just have to scope it down really hard, though 2021-02-16T11:27:14Z jackdaniel: i.e call a function, introspect a result etc 2021-02-16T11:27:41Z theothornhill: jackdaniel: Yeah, I could do that! 2021-02-16T11:27:45Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-16T11:27:46Z carkh: set a break inside a handler, correct a bug while the page is rendering 2021-02-16T11:28:39Z heisig: theothornhill: Yes, show them the interactivity. Like viewing Lisp and C data structures with Clouseau, even while they are being mutated. 2021-02-16T11:29:36Z theothornhill: heisig: That would be really cool, but I'd think people would scoff a little at that, given that C# rules the world here. 2021-02-16T11:29:41Z jackdaniel: and tell them, that lisp is the best thing since sliced bread, however a sliced bread is not known for being especially good for programming 2021-02-16T11:30:16Z theothornhill: Hah :P 2021-02-16T11:31:38Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T11:31:50Z theothornhill: I think maybe the hunchentoot path is the way to go, given that's closer to our domain. I just need to find a good case 2021-02-16T11:35:04Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-16T11:35:17Z carkh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-16T11:45:55Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-16T11:46:24Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-02-16T11:47:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-16T11:47:16Z FennecCode joined #lisp 2021-02-16T11:47:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-16T11:57:49Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-16T11:59:06Z kini joined #lisp 2021-02-16T11:59:56Z Cthulhux: aren't there better servers than hunchentoot now? 2021-02-16T12:07:49Z jackdaniel: Cthulhux: the word "better" creates a false impression, that quality is a 1-dimensional metric 2021-02-16T12:08:06Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-16T12:08:37Z jackdaniel: there are metrics like speed, convenience, feature-richness, community knowledge base and probably more and each seems to be quite orthogonal quality 2021-02-16T12:09:26Z jackdaniel: i.e woo server claims to be much faster, aserve is (I think) more mature etc 2021-02-16T12:09:47Z Cthulhux: hunchentoot is probably very much mature, but speed and scalability *are* important 2021-02-16T12:11:11Z loke[m]: Cthulhux: for something like 99% of uses of webservers, speed and scalability is not important. 2021-02-16T12:11:46Z jackdaniel: they are important for particular use cases, when you make a home web server to serve photos for your family, then you don't need a virtual machine behind cubernetes sitting on top of a cluster of load balancers to gcp 2021-02-16T12:11:46Z loke[m]: And the realtime chat application I wrote using Hunchntoot handled a few thousands parallel users, with something like 250 messages per second without problem. 2021-02-16T12:12:14Z loke[m]: Cthulhux: I'd say the number of sites that needs more than that is actually rather few. 2021-02-16T12:12:14Z jackdaniel: also, as loke[m] noted, speed and scalability are not binary values 2021-02-16T12:12:28Z loke[m]: (and if they do, it's easy enough to scale horizontally) 2021-02-16T12:13:34Z jackdaniel: that reminds me (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0) (safety 0)) because speed *matters* ;-) of course it is bullshit, you get 0 speed when your program reaches a core dump 2021-02-16T12:14:57Z loke[m]: jackdaniel: My point was that even the worst webserver can handle that use case without the need to use Google-level scalability technologies. 2021-02-16T12:15:54Z jackdaniel: loke[m]: yes, I think I've got that 2021-02-16T12:16:19Z tonos joined #lisp 2021-02-16T12:17:56Z ecraven: there, you see, speed is not binary, it's quaternary! 2021-02-16T12:23:58Z edgar-rft: ...and don't forget that the fastest programs are those who don't even start 2021-02-16T12:24:52Z ck_: a whole new context to the tortoise and the hare 2021-02-16T12:25:29Z edgar-rft: ...and the second-fastest are those who instantly dump core 2021-02-16T12:28:28Z heisig: ...and the most efficient ones are those that are never written. 2021-02-16T12:30:46Z flip214: I can make ALL programs that efficient via "ulimit -d 4" 2021-02-16T12:31:49Z scoofy joined #lisp 2021-02-16T12:31:50Z flip214: Cthulhux: use hunchentoot-quux, and enjoy > 6000 requests per second per core. 2021-02-16T12:32:04Z flip214: depending on what you do in the easy-handler, of course. 2021-02-16T12:36:30Z edgar-rft: if you're concerned with efficiency then it's better to never switch on the computer and stop wasting all that electric energy 2021-02-16T12:38:38Z theothornhill: But does it have any issues with speed, though? Couldn't that be fixed, in that case? 2021-02-16T12:41:35Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-02-16T12:53:30Z jackdaniel: theothornhill: the thing is that hunchentoot is not slow in any obvious way 2021-02-16T12:53:54Z jackdaniel: (the only "slowness" metric I can think of is that there are faster web servers :) 2021-02-16T13:00:19Z Jeff57 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:02:45Z Jeff57 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-16T13:02:53Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T13:05:28Z flip214: theothornhill: I'm fine with hunchentoot-quux - this pre-allocates a number of threads, and on 4 cores I get >25000 rq/sec (for short compute times, of course - just a HMAC). 2021-02-16T13:05:40Z svetlyak_ joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:11:08Z Josh_2` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-16T13:11:30Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:11:59Z Josh_2: 'ello 2021-02-16T13:12:33Z azrazalea quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.2+deb2~bpo8+1 - http://znc.in) 2021-02-16T13:14:26Z azrazalea joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:17:19Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:28:07Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:29:40Z pagnol joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:31:19Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-16T13:33:03Z theothornhill: jackdaniel: That's what I thought 2021-02-16T13:34:16Z theothornhill: flip214: That's about 25k times more requests per second that I need for this use case :P 2021-02-16T13:34:44Z jackdaniel: if you are going to make 1 request / second then you should use a metronome 2021-02-16T13:35:38Z theothornhill: hehe, right now I just need it to show some iterative development, so more like 1 request per 3-4 minute :P 2021-02-16T13:38:48Z nckx is now known as jorts 2021-02-16T13:39:40Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:46:47Z Ailrk joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:50:21Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-16T13:52:18Z dyelar joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:55:21Z red-dot joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:58:00Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:58:39Z jealousmonk_ joined #lisp 2021-02-16T13:58:43Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:00:00Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T14:06:40Z Ailrk quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-16T14:07:24Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T14:09:37Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:11:56Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T14:14:30Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:20:36Z bjorkint0sh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T14:24:22Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T14:26:33Z ym joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:28:31Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T14:29:50Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:31:28Z jorts is now known as nckx 2021-02-16T14:35:13Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-16T14:36:35Z yottabyte: I can do something like (drakma:http-request url :additional-headers (list (cons "Authorization" (concatenate 'string "Bearer " (get-bearer-token))))) to use bearer authorization in drakma, but I can't figure out how to set the same headers in dexador 2021-02-16T14:38:25Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:39:09Z choegusung quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-16T14:46:39Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-16T14:48:03Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:48:25Z Ailrk joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:49:46Z _death: it has a :basic-auth parameter.. in general, you can use :headers 2021-02-16T14:50:23Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:50:24Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:51:47Z DikkeRobert joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:53:42Z DikkeRobert quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-16T14:53:57Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-16T14:55:05Z Ailrk quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-16T14:56:14Z Ailrk joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:57:38Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T14:59:50Z Ailrk quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-16T15:00:16Z Ailrk joined #lisp 2021-02-16T15:00:43Z Ailrk quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-16T15:01:34Z Ailrk joined #lisp 2021-02-16T15:03:06Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-16T15:03:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T15:04:21Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-16T15:04:22Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella) 2021-02-16T15:07:05Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T15:07:24Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-16T15:09:04Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-02-16T15:12:22Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-16T15:15:03Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2021-02-16T15:17:11Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T15:26:04Z yottabyte: I'm making this request with drakma: https://cloud.google.com/storage/docs/downloading-objects and it's giving me a flexi-stream, and I want to do like file-length on it and then eventually write it to disk. basically I want to know how to work with this object 2021-02-16T15:28:16Z Josh_2: maybe alexandria:read-stream-content-into-string ? 2021-02-16T15:28:27Z Josh_2: but I'm sure if you check the flexi-stream docs you will find a better solution 2021-02-16T15:28:42Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T15:29:04Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-16T15:30:00Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-16T15:34:30Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-16T15:35:37Z svetlyak_: yottabyte: Try Dexador. It has much simpler API. 2021-02-16T15:35:47Z svetlyak_ is now known as svetlyak40wt 2021-02-16T15:36:42Z yottabyte: I couldn't get the headers to work for bearer authorization in dexador, but they work in drakma 2021-02-16T15:36:55Z shinohai: Greets @ svetlyak40wt o/ 2021-02-16T15:38:30Z svetlyak40wt: yottabyte: This is simple. Here is an example: https://github.com/40ants/cl-github/blob/master/src/core.lisp#L75-L83 2021-02-16T15:40:20Z yottabyte: I tried (dex:get *url* :headers '(("Authorization" . (concatenate 'string "Bearer " (get-bearer-token))))) and that didn't work for me. I almost have the same thing for drakma which worked. so I know my get-bearer-token function works 2021-02-16T15:40:39Z yottabyte: the error response gives me "message": "Invalid Credentials", 2021-02-16T15:40:51Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-16T15:40:52Z Xach: yottabyte: if you used exactly that, it can't work - the quote inhibits evaluation. 2021-02-16T15:41:01Z Josh_2: Finally started making progress with CFFI 2021-02-16T15:41:24Z yottabyte: I used exactly that 2021-02-16T15:41:32Z Josh_2: yottabyte: I had that issue at one point, lemme check my version 2021-02-16T15:42:01Z svetlyak40wt: yottabyte: Use `(("Authorization" . ,(concatenate 'string "Bearer " (get-bearer-token))))) 2021-02-16T15:42:15Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2021-02-16T15:42:16Z Josh_2: ^ 2021-02-16T15:42:17Z Xach: yottabyte: `(("Authorization" . (concatenate 'string "Bearer " ,(get-bearer-token))) might work better. Or (list (cons "Authoriization" (format nil "Bearer ~A" (get-bearer-token))) or something 2021-02-16T15:42:19Z Josh_2: thats how I have mine 2021-02-16T15:42:31Z Xach: (spelled properly of course) 2021-02-16T15:42:51Z Josh_2: except I used format not concatenate 2021-02-16T15:43:03Z mfiano: Xach: unquote the wrong form? 2021-02-16T15:43:22Z yottabyte: wow, that worked. why is that? also I had to change my ' to ` because it said comma not in back quote 2021-02-16T15:43:24Z Xach: yes 2021-02-16T15:43:35Z Xach: yottabyte: because that's how lisp works 2021-02-16T15:43:55Z yottabyte: because in drakma I had exactly (drakma:http-request *url* :additional-headers '(("Authorization" . (concatenate 'string "Bearer " (get-bearer-token))))) and this worked 2021-02-16T15:44:15Z yottabyte: I thought '(("Authorization" . (concatenate 'string "Bearer " (get-bearer-token)))) was equivalent to (list ("Authorization" . (concatenate 'string "Bearer " (get-bearer-token)))) 2021-02-16T15:44:26Z Xach: No. 2021-02-16T15:48:02Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-16T15:48:29Z yottabyte: why did the drakma call work? 2021-02-16T15:49:44Z beach: yottabyte: Why are you trying to do such complex stuff if you don't know the basic evaluation rule of Common Lisp? I would do something simpler, like exercises in a book on programming in Common Lisp. 2021-02-16T15:51:00Z sjl: yottabyte: it doesn't work like you think it worked https://i.imgur.com/Jar91E7.png 2021-02-16T15:52:25Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T15:52:25Z yottabyte: sjl: I'm getting responses which make sense but alas 2021-02-16T15:52:51Z yottabyte: beach: I'm just trying to learn through a practical application. but you're right. I might be in over my head 2021-02-16T15:53:00Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-16T15:53:43Z beach: yottabyte: It is not that it's over your head. It's that it can become quite a tedious exercise, with your being lost many many times on trivial stuff and they ask for help here. 2021-02-16T15:54:39Z sjl: The docs seem to imply that the values in the additional-headers alist must be strings or function designators, but looking at the code it looks like it'll take anything and renders it with format's ~A, which is a little confusing. 2021-02-16T15:55:55Z sjl: But yeah. Using a single quote means your alist had a single element, with the key "Authorization" and the value being a list of four elements. Drakma turned that list into a string and sent it as the header. 2021-02-16T15:58:14Z sjl: And unless you have a *very* interesting session token generator, the string "(concatenate 'string "Bearer " (get-bearer-token))" is unlikely to be a valid session token. 2021-02-16T16:01:03Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-16T16:01:15Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:01:35Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-16T16:01:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:07:48Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-16T16:08:04Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:08:14Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T16:08:41Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:08:56Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-16T16:09:03Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T16:09:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:10:14Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-16T16:10:32Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:10:58Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-16T16:11:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:14:04Z Ailrk quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-16T16:14:59Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-16T16:15:26Z Ailrk joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:19:39Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:21:32Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-16T16:21:47Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:21:48Z Ailrk quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-16T16:25:13Z Ailrk1 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:25:47Z Ailrk joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:26:27Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-16T16:26:29Z Ailrk quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-16T16:27:13Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:30:12Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-16T16:30:48Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:31:15Z Ailrk joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:31:51Z Ailrk quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-16T16:32:26Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T16:33:10Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-16T16:37:57Z lambdanon joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:38:09Z lambdanon: Hi, I'm running into trouble when quickloading :cl-gtk2-gtk 2021-02-16T16:40:36Z lambdanon: Nvm found the issue on their github and apparently cl-gtk2 is no longer maintained 2021-02-16T16:40:49Z beach: Try McCLIM instead. 2021-02-16T16:41:03Z beach: It is quite well maintained, and it installs right away. 2021-02-16T16:42:58Z lambdanon: Looks pretty good, I'll check it out 2021-02-16T16:44:13Z beach: There are some interesting tools that use it too, like Clouseau, the inspector, which is way more competent than (say) the SLIME inspector. 2021-02-16T16:45:57Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:46:02Z lambdanon: To be fair, I'm only making tetris as a test project, so I might not even need a fully functional GUI framework, just something that can draw squares 2021-02-16T16:46:45Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-16T16:46:57Z beach: Sounds like fun. 2021-02-16T16:47:25Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-16T16:47:46Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:49:46Z lambdanon: Whenever I'm making projects, and I want to use-package, I always have to specify whether I keep-old or take-new. Is there a way of automatically resolving this conflict? 2021-02-16T16:50:40Z beach: I strongly suggest you :USE only the Common Lisp package, and use explicit package prefixes (possibly with a package-local nickname) for all other symbols from other packages. 2021-02-16T16:53:02Z lambdanon: It'd be nice if I could do the common lisp equivalent of Python's "from module import X Y Z..." 2021-02-16T16:53:55Z beach: You can, but I don't recommend it. 2021-02-16T16:54:18Z beach: It is much more explicit to the person reading your code to know from which package a symbol originates. 2021-02-16T16:54:50Z lambdanon: I see. I assume this applies even to packages that everyone uses, like Alexandria? 2021-02-16T16:55:25Z beach: Yes, certainly packages like that, because they can acquire new exported symbols over time, and then your code will break. 2021-02-16T16:55:43Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-16T16:59:14Z teej quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-16T16:59:31Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-16T16:59:40Z jmercouris: I'm having a problem conceptualizing something 2021-02-16T16:59:50Z jmercouris: we have a `define-configuration` macro 2021-02-16T16:59:52Z lambdanon: beach: Thanks for the pointers, I'm going to check out their guided tour now 2021-02-16T17:00:05Z jmercouris: what I would like to do within this macro is read the symbols as if they are in a different package 2021-02-16T17:00:08Z jmercouris: is that possible? 2021-02-16T17:00:10Z beach: lambdanon: Good luck. Go to #clim for questions 2021-02-16T17:00:38Z beach: jmercouris: No, the symbol are read before the macro does its work. 2021-02-16T17:00:52Z jmercouris: so I would need a reader macro? 2021-02-16T17:01:09Z jmercouris: or would that not even work? 2021-02-16T17:01:11Z beach: Hard to say, since I don't know what you want to do. 2021-02-16T17:01:18Z jmercouris: let me hsow 2021-02-16T17:01:23Z jmercouris: s/hsow/show 2021-02-16T17:02:00Z beach: Most of the time when people think they need something like that, it is the wrong solution to their problem. 2021-02-16T17:02:02Z tonos left #lisp 2021-02-16T17:02:06Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/7MNCPCXY5 2021-02-16T17:02:19Z jmercouris: so I've provided an example of our macro 2021-02-16T17:02:49Z jmercouris: I would like to somehow make the illegal form, legal 2021-02-16T17:02:53Z Bike: oh, so like defstruct. 2021-02-16T17:03:10Z Bike: you don't need a reader macro for that, but it's kind of unhygenic usually. 2021-02-16T17:03:27Z jmercouris: what does it mean to be unheigenic? 2021-02-16T17:03:39Z Bike: ugly. 2021-02-16T17:03:57Z Bike: is the idea that this define-configuration form is something the user writes in a config file, referring to nyxt/web-mode:web-mode which is part of your system? 2021-02-16T17:04:04Z jmercouris: Bike: that's correct, yes 2021-02-16T17:04:40Z jmercouris: and this define-configuration form changes the initforms of slots within the web-mode class 2021-02-16T17:04:49Z jmercouris: it is to simply configuration for users 2021-02-16T17:05:01Z Bike: right. 2021-02-16T17:05:21Z Bike: So could you for example define a nyxt-user (or something) package, that USEs nyxt/web-mode, that the config file is read in? 2021-02-16T17:05:28Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-16T17:05:31Z jmercouris: we have defined such a class 2021-02-16T17:05:35Z jmercouris: s/class/package 2021-02-16T17:05:42Z Bike: then you could just write (define-configuration web-mode ((hints-alphabet "asdf"))) 2021-02-16T17:05:50Z jmercouris: hm, maybe that is the solution, indeed 2021-02-16T17:05:54Z Bike: and it would be all the right symbols, without further work on your part 2021-02-16T17:05:57Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-16T17:06:08Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-16T17:06:14Z Bike: if that doesn't work out, the alternative is basically to have the macroexpander construct the symbols you want 2021-02-16T17:06:30Z Bike: something along the lines of (intern (symbol-name user-provided-slot-name) "NYXT/WEB-MODE") 2021-02-16T17:06:31Z jmercouris: yeah, I thought about doing that within the define-configuraiton macro 2021-02-16T17:06:49Z jmercouris: but then I was thinking, I will have to make it smart, if the user DOES prefix the symbol correctly.. 2021-02-16T17:06:54Z jmercouris: then I will have to change its behavior 2021-02-16T17:06:55Z Bike: The problem with that is that any package the user does specify is ove- yeah, you got it. 2021-02-16T17:07:17Z jmercouris: I think I will try USE'ing 2021-02-16T17:07:22Z jmercouris: it never really occurs to me to USE packages 2021-02-16T17:07:30Z jmercouris: because of the negativity associated with this keyword 2021-02-16T17:07:48Z Bike: mm, well, for whatever-user packages it's pretty okay 2021-02-16T17:08:08Z Bike: the difficulty comes when the api is changed, but in this case you control both ends, so it's not as much of a problem 2021-02-16T17:08:28Z jmercouris: yes 2021-02-16T17:08:48Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-16T17:09:10Z jmercouris: thanks for the advice 2021-02-16T17:09:35Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-16T17:09:37Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-16T17:09:45Z jmercouris: I guess we also have to be careful of similarly named modes in two different packages 2021-02-16T17:09:47Z jmercouris: but we can prevent that 2021-02-16T17:10:08Z Bike: no prob 2021-02-16T17:19:31Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-16T17:19:56Z mason left #lisp 2021-02-16T17:20:30Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-16T17:22:52Z Ailrk1 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to in lisp-land today? 2021-02-17T00:15:20Z red-dot joined #lisp 2021-02-17T00:16:50Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-17T00:20:17Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-02-17T00:20:47Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-17T00:23:44Z astronavt left #lisp 2021-02-17T00:26:27Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-17T00:27:34Z astronavt joined #lisp 2021-02-17T00:30:36Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-17T00:34:40Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-17T00:36:25Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T00:43:03Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-17T00:43:25Z zulu-inuoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-17T00:43:52Z zulu-inuoe joined #lisp 2021-02-17T00:47:52Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T00:50:38Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-17T01:00:39Z pagnol joined #lisp 2021-02-17T01:03:55Z epony joined #lisp 2021-02-17T01:06:02Z antoszka quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7) 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https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/y69ZhfhR/Portable%20Genera%202.0%20Released.png 2021-02-17T02:00:33Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-02-17T02:11:29Z rdrg109 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T02:26:12Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T02:26:57Z perrier-jouet quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-17T02:32:09Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-17T02:33:50Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T02:33:51Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-17T02:39:27Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-17T02:41:31Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-17T02:45:48Z alfred188 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T02:46:19Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-17T02:47:57Z rdrg109 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-17T02:55:07Z charles`: Hi everyone 2021-02-17T02:58:54Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-17T02:59:40Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-17T03:02:33Z thmprover: Howdy, charles` 2021-02-17T03:02:59Z thmprover: Egads, bootstrapping CCL on Raspberry Pi is a nightmare. 2021-02-17T03:06:31Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-02-17T03:10:05Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T03:12:27Z hineios4 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T03:12:36Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T03:12:36Z hineios4 is now known as hineios 2021-02-17T03:15:38Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-17T03:16:26Z charles`: thmprover, low processing power? 2021-02-17T03:17:27Z thmprover: The bootstrapping instructions are vague at times; it seems clear that the documentation is written for people who already know what they're doing (i.e., not me). 2021-02-17T03:17:36Z thmprover: And low processing power, that also slows things down. 2021-02-17T03:18:05Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp 2021-02-17T03:18:08Z thmprover: It took 2 hours to compile Emacs from scratch, for example. But CCL is much faster by comparison. 2021-02-17T03:18:52Z red-dot: palter : Nicely done Gary. Been waiting a long time for a native Mac version. 2021-02-17T03:23:48Z Sheilong quit 2021-02-17T03:25:09Z zulu-inuoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-17T03:30:31Z thmprover: Let's see how long it takes... 2021-02-17T03:42:17Z charles`: Does anyone know if it is possible to associate warn with a line or form in a macro so that SLY will pick up on it and draw red squigillies in the buffer? 2021-02-17T03:43:49Z Bike: You mean, you want to signal a warning in a macroexpander, and have sly mark the location? 2021-02-17T03:44:04Z Bike: does it not do that already, marking the macro form? 2021-02-17T03:44:46Z Bike: or do you want the marking to be specifically some subform of the macro form? 2021-02-17T03:46:52Z charles`: yes, I want to mark the subform. The one that is actually problematic 2021-02-17T03:47:21Z Bike: Try https://github.com/scymtym/trivial-with-current-source-form 2021-02-17T03:47:45Z Bike: only works in sbcl and clasp though. other implementations don't have an analogous hook 2021-02-17T03:50:41Z Bike: (or if they do, this library hasn't been informed of it, and nor have i) 2021-02-17T03:50:51Z charles`: It looks like I don't have to do anything special. this appears to be straight black magic. 2021-02-17T03:50:59Z Bike: well 2021-02-17T03:51:47Z Bike: the magic is how implementations report conditions signaled from macroexpanders. sbcl and clasp associate such conditions with source information specially, and sly (and slime, and other DEs hopefully) use that source information to mark the errant forms 2021-02-17T03:52:20Z Bike: also the library uses exported interfaces, so it should be reasonably stable. 2021-02-17T03:53:14Z charles`: This is just so good 2021-02-17T03:59:16Z charles`: absolutely beautiful 2021-02-17T03:59:45Z Bike: happy to be of assistance. 2021-02-17T04:01:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T04:02:08Z beach` is now known as beach 2021-02-17T04:02:17Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T04:02:29Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2021-02-17T04:02:34Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-02-17T04:02:48Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-17T04:03:07Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-17T04:03:27Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-17T04:03:51Z charles`: Good morning beach 2021-02-17T04:05:22Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T04:17:12Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-17T04:22:58Z charles`: What is up today beach? 2021-02-17T04:24:05Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-17T04:25:07Z beach: Well, the day before yesterday, I finished restructuring the way the SICL code is organized as binary (though I don't generate binary yet) according to my paper on call-site optimization. So yesterday, I spend the day writing some documentation. And I am still debating what to do next. 2021-02-17T04:25:30Z beach: charles`: What about you? 2021-02-17T04:26:41Z beach: I have given some more thought to my idea for register allocation, but not making much progress at the moment. I really should concentrate on one of the activities for generating native SICL code. 2021-02-17T04:27:10Z charles`: I believe I just finished my tail recursion optimization macro, so I need to send that out into the world and integrate it into issr-core 2021-02-17T04:27:43Z beach: Great! 2021-02-17T04:28:43Z charles`: I wonder it could be used internally by a lisp implementation. I'm probably missing something. 2021-02-17T04:29:45Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2021-02-17T04:29:45Z beach: It sounds strange to me that a macro can optimize tail recursion. How does it work? 2021-02-17T04:31:06Z charles`: I'm doing it a similar way to the way I think clojure does it. 2021-02-17T04:31:38Z beach: Do you care to give a short explanation of how that way works? 2021-02-17T04:33:42Z charles`: use tagbody, replace all tail calls with saving arguments, teleporting to beginning of tagbody, and setting the arguments 2021-02-17T04:34:01Z housel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-17T04:34:13Z beach: I see. Thanks. 2021-02-17T04:34:55Z beach: That strategy works only for tail calls where the caller and the callee are the same function, right? 2021-02-17T04:35:50Z beach: Usually, a Common Lisp implementation would have more ambitious goals for tail calls, and I don't think the more ambitious version could be handled with a macro. 2021-02-17T04:36:45Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-17T04:37:39Z charles`: function b calls function a that calls function b. It certainly won't work for that. I would think they would do a better job, but I am specifically working on this because sbcl isn't optimizing my function. 2021-02-17T04:38:22Z beach: I see. That's weird though. SBCL usually does. Are you sure the recursive call is in a tail-call position? 2021-02-17T04:38:57Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T04:39:04Z beach: Sometimes, things could be hidden, like bindings of special variables. 2021-02-17T04:39:34Z charles`: I'm pretty sure, but I will be sure, when I try my macro on it because it will warn if there are non-tail calls. 2021-02-17T04:43:28Z beach: Wow, how does it do that? I mean, take (defun f (x) (let ((y ...)) ... (f y))) is in a tail-call position if Y is not special, but may not be if it is. 2021-02-17T04:44:14Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-02-17T04:44:18Z charles`: I just don't catch that. I'm not that good 2021-02-17T04:44:37Z asarch: Any HTML form generator? 2021-02-17T04:44:47Z beach: charles`: Whew! I though I had missed something. 2021-02-17T04:44:51Z gabiruh quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-17T04:44:56Z asarch: Or, even better, any HTML Form handler? 2021-02-17T04:45:33Z charles`: beach: if there is some way to check if a symbol is a special variable, I think I could catch that case though 2021-02-17T04:45:33Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-17T04:45:53Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2021-02-17T04:47:17Z beach: I haven't finished my morning coffee yet, so I may not remember correctly, but I don't think there is a portable way of determining that, though obviously, each implementation must be able to determine it. 2021-02-17T04:50:01Z charles`: I could use *macroexpand-hook* if the macro is defparameter or defvar, add a property 😁. 2021-02-17T04:53:57Z red-dot joined #lisp 2021-02-17T04:54:16Z Bike: no, there is not a portable way to determine that a symbol is declared special in an environment. 2021-02-17T04:54:38Z Bike: well, not a standard way. you can sort of hack up something portable using cltl2 interfaces. 2021-02-17T04:54:54Z beach: Thanks! As I recall, we wrote some "interesting" code in the "hostile" global environment to try to determine it. 2021-02-17T04:55:39Z Bike: yeah... 2021-02-17T04:59:10Z beach: Maybe someone should write a TRIVIAL-SPECIAL-VARIABLE library? 2021-02-17T05:00:05Z beach: That sounds like a Shinmera specialty, but he is not around very much anymore it seems. 2021-02-17T05:00:43Z Josh_2: asarch: hunchentoot ;) 2021-02-17T05:00:47Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T05:07:58Z charles`: beach: I made a interaction with him last month 2021-02-17T05:08:34Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I think Shinmera mostly hangs around elsewhere on IRC 2021-02-17T05:09:22Z beach: Yes, he is in #sicl, but doesn't make much noise. 2021-02-17T05:09:32Z conjunctive: Hi, in CLOS, how would you upcast a generic function call, invoking it as if the object being dispatched upon were an instance of the parent/inherited class? 2021-02-17T05:10:06Z beach: clhs call-next-method 2021-02-17T05:10:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_call_n.htm 2021-02-17T05:11:51Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-17T05:12:14Z beach: conjunctive: ↑ 2021-02-17T05:14:19Z conjunctive: beach: Thanks for this. If I am outside of a method body, is there a way to do something similar? 2021-02-17T05:15:00Z Bike: no. clos is dynamic pretty exclusively. 2021-02-17T05:15:24Z beach: Sure, call your outside code passing #'call-next-method as an argument, and then invoke it with (funcall ...). 2021-02-17T05:16:33Z fiddlerwoaroof_: This works for special-p, in at least some cases: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/18f0ce7704340c90e868780654b7f4041c58fb47.nil.html 2021-02-17T05:16:58Z fiddlerwoaroof_: It's probably non-conforming for most symbols in the CL package, though 2021-02-17T05:17:06Z fiddlerwoaroof_: And, it's a macro, which has its own issues 2021-02-17T05:17:48Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-17T05:18:15Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof_: It looks familiar. We must have done something like that in the "hostile" environment. 2021-02-17T05:19:22Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-17T05:21:30Z beach: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Cleavir/blob/master/Environment/Examples/hostile.lisp 2021-02-17T05:22:26Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T05:24:53Z beach: conjunctive: Did you see the answers? 2021-02-17T05:25:07Z conjunctive: Thank you Bike & beach! This was very helpful 2021-02-17T05:25:16Z beach: Great! 2021-02-17T05:26:46Z charles`: Good night 2021-02-17T05:27:02Z charles` quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-17T05:31:28Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-17T05:31:53Z Nilby: There's some weird edge cases with making a specialp, but it mostly works. 2021-02-17T05:32:03Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-17T05:33:33Z Bike quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-17T05:38:57Z Nilby: One can even check it at both macroexpand time and run time, but of course the oddly spelled makunbound exists. 2021-02-17T05:40:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T05:44:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T05:44:51Z shifty joined #lisp 2021-02-17T05:46:01Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T05:46:06Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-17T05:46:16Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-02-17T05:46:18Z tmf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T05:47:28Z thmprover quit (Quit: For He Was Great of Heart) 2021-02-17T05:52:10Z KeyboardWorrier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T05:52:35Z KeyboardWorrier joined #lisp 2021-02-17T05:55:03Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T05:55:43Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-17T05:57:11Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-02-17T05:57:28Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-02-17T05:57:47Z jurov_ joined #lisp 2021-02-17T05:57:50Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T06:01:26Z tmf joined #lisp 2021-02-17T06:01:57Z jurov joined #lisp 2021-02-17T06:02:31Z pagnol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T06:03:29Z contrapunctus: beach: I spoke to Shinmera a few days ago in #shirakumo , FWIW 2021-02-17T06:03:33Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-17T06:04:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T06:05:54Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-17T06:12:42Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-17T06:14:00Z beach: contrapunctus: Yeah, he's around. Just not very active as far as i can tell, but maybe he is in #shirakumo. 2021-02-17T06:15:52Z sveit quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-17T06:15:53Z simplegauss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-17T06:23:22Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-02-17T06:26:19Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-17T06:26:52Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-17T06:31:51Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-17T06:33:19Z fiddlerwoaroof_: clhs SYMBOL-VALUE 2021-02-17T06:33:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_5.htm 2021-02-17T06:34:55Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Will this always succeed if the symbol is declared special? 2021-02-17T06:36:26Z beach: No. 2021-02-17T06:37:56Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Hmm, yeah, I guess you could have an unbound special variable 2021-02-17T06:37:56Z beach: (defparameter *v* 234) (progv '(*v*) '() (symbol-value '*v*)) 2021-02-17T06:38:20Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-02-17T06:38:41Z beach: clhs progv 2021-02-17T06:38:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm 2021-02-17T06:39:12Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T06:39:29Z beach: "If too few values are supplied, the remaining symbols are bound and then made to have no value." 2021-02-17T06:39:36Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T06:39:40Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Yeah, I forgot about that edge case 2021-02-17T06:39:45Z beach: I guess you could do the same with makunbound. 2021-02-17T06:39:52Z fiddlerwoaroof_: or defvar 2021-02-17T06:40:01Z fiddlerwoaroof_: (defvar *foo*) (symbol-value '*foo*) 2021-02-17T06:40:07Z beach: That's even simpler. 2021-02-17T06:40:33Z beach: I was demonstrating that it can also can have no dynamic value even though it has a global one. 2021-02-17T06:40:54Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T06:41:38Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-17T06:42:09Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Yeah, that makes sense 2021-02-17T06:42:13Z beach: Speaking of which, the Common Lisp HyperSpec has some confusing terminology. 2021-02-17T06:42:37Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-17T06:43:05Z beach: Sometimes "bound" implies "has a value" as in MAKUNBOUND. But on the PROGV page, it is bound but has no value. 2021-02-17T06:43:42Z beach: Note to self: clean up the terminology bound/value for WSCL. 2021-02-17T06:44:56Z fiddlerwoaroof_: The glossary acknowledges this, I think 2021-02-17T06:45:09Z fiddlerwoaroof_: bound -> shadow 2021-02-17T06:45:36Z beach: OK, but then MAKUNBOUND does not make the variable unbound. 2021-02-17T06:45:45Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Yeah 2021-02-17T06:45:48Z beach: It makes the variable have no value. 2021-02-17T06:46:26Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T06:46:29Z beach: The best solution would be to invent a new term for "have no value". 2021-02-17T06:46:55Z beach: "worthless"? :) 2021-02-17T06:47:03Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Yeah, I think the glossary just notes that bound is ambiguous, so makunbound uses bound[1] and progv uses bound[2] 2021-02-17T06:47:29Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I think the docs for PROGV should just say "PROGV shadows any existing bindings of the variable, making it unbound" 2021-02-17T06:48:29Z beach: Oh, so you take the position that "bound" means "has no value". That would go better with MAKUNBOUND. 2021-02-17T06:48:38Z Nilby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T06:48:43Z beach: i.e., we wouldn't have to rename it. 2021-02-17T06:48:53Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-17T06:49:01Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Yeah, I think there's a typo? 2021-02-17T06:49:33Z beach: That's a good idea. 2021-02-17T06:52:20Z beach: Now, if I could just convince someone to take the dpANS and turn it into a single LaTeX document (containing multiple files obviously), we could start working on WSCL. 2021-02-17T06:54:03Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-02-17T07:05:39Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-17T07:08:45Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-17T07:11:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T07:13:01Z recalloc: Does anybody have good resources to find memory leaks in dependencies? I've no idea how to approach this problem I've got somewhere in lispcord. 2021-02-17T07:15:10Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-17T07:16:13Z carkh: is there an existing library parsing sexpr ? 2021-02-17T07:16:22Z carkh: i mean from sexpr to syntax tree 2021-02-17T07:16:32Z carkh: rather than a reader 2021-02-17T07:16:46Z beach: minion: Please tell carkh about Cleavir. 2021-02-17T07:16:47Z minion: carkh: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future 2021-02-17T07:17:04Z carkh: thanks let me check this out 2021-02-17T07:17:43Z beach: We turn S-expressions or CSTs into ASTs, using a first-class global environments to determine the meaning of the expression. 2021-02-17T07:18:30Z beach: It is not "packaged" to be used independently, but the functionality is certainly there. 2021-02-17T07:18:39Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-17T07:18:44Z carkh: looks like a whole lot more than what i require 2021-02-17T07:18:46Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-17T07:19:03Z beach: Maybe so. 2021-02-17T07:19:09Z carkh: i was looking for something more akin to a parser generator, but instead of characters, we have atoms, and some support for nesting 2021-02-17T07:19:37Z beach: But that's what READ does. 2021-02-17T07:19:53Z carkh: well no, read works with character input doesn't it ? 2021-02-17T07:19:57Z beach: You may want to check Eclector then. It turns sequences of character into Concrete Syntax Trees. 2021-02-17T07:20:02Z loke[m]: carkh: I think you may be looking for SAFE-READ? 2021-02-17T07:20:34Z carkh: ah sorry i think i didn't make myself clear enough 2021-02-17T07:20:49Z fiddlerwoaroof_: carkh: you want a parser for something like '(a b c d e)? 2021-02-17T07:20:51Z carkh: i want seprx in, and sexpr out 2021-02-17T07:21:00Z carkh: yes that's it fiddlerwoaroof_ 2021-02-17T07:21:08Z beach: carkh: Maybe we need some examples. 2021-02-17T07:21:27Z loke[m]: So just the parser part without the tokeniser. 2021-02-17T07:21:27Z carkh: maybe i'm trying to code something akin to cl-who 2021-02-17T07:21:29Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I wrote something like that using smug when I tried to implement most of a PHP parser 2021-02-17T07:21:33Z carkh: but i want good error reporting 2021-02-17T07:21:36Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-17T07:21:53Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T07:22:23Z fiddlerwoaroof_: But, I was using parser-combinators which mostly have bad error reporting :) 2021-02-17T07:22:34Z carkh: ahh =) 2021-02-17T07:23:23Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-17T07:23:27Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I think you might be able to go quite a ways with macros, though: it sounds to me like you're basically talking about a macroexpander :) 2021-02-17T07:23:43Z carkh: well that's the thing, i want to use this for a macro 2021-02-17T07:23:54Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-02-17T07:23:58Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Error reporting would have to be hand-rolled, but you can always (ERROR "something descriptive") in your macro definition 2021-02-17T07:24:00Z carkh: i want to make sure the tree passed to it is correct 2021-02-17T07:24:03Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-17T07:24:16Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-02-17T07:24:19Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I believe SICL loop uses a strategy like this too. 2021-02-17T07:24:50Z carkh: and i'd rather avoid coding an ad-hoc thing for which facilities might already exist 2021-02-17T07:25:45Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Something like this: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/f610b051166f2df6be61f43d73b61c7cc87bcae7/Code/Loop/combinatory-parsing.lisp 2021-02-17T07:25:49Z carkh: in the clojure world they have this spec thing, which they say isn't for parsing, but does it well enough 2021-02-17T07:26:18Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-17T07:26:19Z fiddlerwoaroof_: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/Loop/for-as-hash-clause.lisp#L29 2021-02-17T07:26:42Z carkh: ok that's much reading already =) 2021-02-17T07:26:56Z carkh: thanks for the help, i'll go and read all that 2021-02-17T07:35:05Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-17T07:36:00Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-17T07:36:43Z carkh: looks like i'll have to rool my own, stealing ideas left and right =) 2021-02-17T07:36:50Z carkh: roll* 2021-02-17T07:45:02Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2021-02-17T07:46:27Z otwieracz left #lisp 2021-02-17T07:48:59Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-17T07:49:55Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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(www.adiirc.com)) 2021-02-17T09:03:41Z gj: i realise that i never actually asked my question that i mentioned last time 2021-02-17T09:03:51Z gj: i did figure it out, though 2021-02-17T09:03:57Z beach: That's true. We assumed you figured it out. 2021-02-17T09:04:13Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T09:04:32Z kenran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-17T09:05:44Z gj: hmm, i am not sure if this is a strange question, but is there anything that was very helpful to you when you were learning common lisp? 2021-02-17T09:06:00Z gj: or, anything that you wish you had known earlier? 2021-02-17T09:06:06Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-17T09:07:15Z jackdaniel: sure, that steele bank common lisp is not software created by a bank corporation ;) 2021-02-17T09:07:33Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T09:07:40Z jackdaniel: steel* 2021-02-17T09:08:34Z beach: I wish someone had convinced me that CLOS is great. That way I would have learned Common Lisp earlier and wasted many fewer years of my life. 2021-02-17T09:08:35Z gj: lol 2021-02-17T09:09:13Z gj: mmm, i am finding that common lisp is really expanding my knowledge and creativity, much more than python... 2021-02-17T09:09:25Z gj: you can really do so much with it. it is so great. 2021-02-17T09:10:19Z beach: Something that is essential to know is the correct definition of "call by value". And the meaning of what I call "uniform reference semantics". 2021-02-17T09:10:42Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-02-17T09:10:46Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-17T09:11:46Z beach: Many newbies are confused about code like this: (defun f (x) (push 234 x)) and then (defparameter *l* '()) then (f *l*) then *l* => NIL. 2021-02-17T09:13:53Z beach: Some people (including the creators of the language R) think that "call by value" means copying structured values before passing them to the callee. But it just means that argument forms are evaluated before the callee is invoked. 2021-02-17T09:14:55Z beach: And some people think that Common Lisp uses "call by reference" just because Common Lisp values behave as if they were all references. 2021-02-17T09:14:56Z ecraven: just make it all immutable, then you won't be able to observe these problems :P 2021-02-17T09:15:36Z beach: Right, that's the basis of functional programming. 2021-02-17T09:15:45Z ljavorsk_ quit (Quit: I'm out, bye) 2021-02-17T09:15:46Z ecraven: I argued that with a professor once, he said "a reference is passed, thus this is call-by-reference" 2021-02-17T09:16:02Z ljavorsk quit (Quit: I'm out, bye) 2021-02-17T09:16:17Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-17T09:16:18Z beach: That only goes to show that many professors are incompetent when it comes to teaching programming. 2021-02-17T09:16:30Z beach: I happen to know quite a few. 2021-02-17T09:19:45Z gj: @beach i am confused about code like that 2021-02-17T09:19:58Z beach: My solution to that problem is to follow the advice of the CACM article that I read a few years back, "Beyond MOOCs" I think the title was. 2021-02-17T09:19:59Z beach: I think we need to create web-based "lecture series", structured as a graph of short nodes containing text, video, animations, etc. And we need to structure the graph so that students can dig deeper into a particular subject if that is desired, and, on the contrary, skip nodes that have contents that the student already knows. 2021-02-17T09:20:23Z beach: gj: Do you know some language such as C? 2021-02-17T09:20:26Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T09:21:02Z Oddity- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-17T09:21:09Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-17T09:21:35Z beach: int f(int x) { x += 3;} and then int xx = 234; then f(xx); then printf("%d", xx); 2021-02-17T09:21:36Z red-dot joined #lisp 2021-02-17T09:21:47Z beach: What is printed? 2021-02-17T09:22:00Z ecraven: beach: indeed, but that would mostly benefit the student, not the (existing) professors and universities, so it's an uphill race... 2021-02-17T09:22:03Z beach apologizes for C mistakes, as he hasn't used it for some time. 2021-02-17T09:22:21Z beach: ecraven: Exactly. So we need to convince decision makers, not professors. 2021-02-17T09:22:37Z beach: ecraven: Like the people who give all this money to incompetent professors. 2021-02-17T09:23:22Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-02-17T09:23:33Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T09:23:33Z beach: gj: Do you understand that C code? 2021-02-17T09:26:14Z gj: no, i am sorry. i have never learned any C. 2021-02-17T09:26:42Z beach: I guess someone could translate it to Python. My Python is quite rusty. 2021-02-17T09:27:37Z gj: though, *i* in your lisp example was nil originally yes? but (f *i*) would return (234) 2021-02-17T09:28:23Z ecraven: the python is almost the same as C here... def f(x): x = x + 3 xx = 234 f(xx) print(xx) 2021-02-17T09:28:29Z beach: I did not say anything about the return value of the call to F. 2021-02-17T09:28:36Z ecraven: only the second line (x = x + 3) is indented 2021-02-17T09:28:52Z ecraven: gj: the point is, f(x) does *not* change the global value of xx 2021-02-17T09:29:33Z gj: i see 2021-02-17T09:30:07Z beach: And that is true for the vast majority of programming languages. 2021-02-17T09:30:18Z ecraven: gj: do you understand *why* the global value is not changed? 2021-02-17T09:30:25Z beach: Yet, when newbies come to Common Lisp, for some reason, they expect the result to be different. 2021-02-17T09:30:39Z ecraven: beach: because ... macros! and magic! ;) 2021-02-17T09:30:49Z ecraven: and NLAMBDA :P 2021-02-17T09:31:32Z beach: OK, so let me formulate it this way then: One really good thing to know when learning Common Lisp is that it behaves like the vast majority of programming languages when it comes to function calls and lexical variables. 2021-02-17T09:33:39Z gj: thank you 2021-02-17T09:33:57Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-02-17T09:35:27Z gj: i do understand why the global variable is not changed, yes 2021-02-17T09:35:51Z beach: So in fact, you were NOT confused by that code. 2021-02-17T09:36:39Z gj: yes, it just took me a little while to think about it! 2021-02-17T09:40:16Z admich joined #lisp 2021-02-17T09:40:33Z gj: ah, also, are there any books you recommend? (about common lisp) 2021-02-17T09:41:07Z beach: The usual bunch: PCL, PAIP, On Lisp. 2021-02-17T09:41:18Z beach: Keenes Book on CLOS. 2021-02-17T09:41:21Z beach: AMOP. 2021-02-17T09:41:30Z beach: Roughly in that order. 2021-02-17T09:41:55Z beach: Oh, and the CLIM specification. That's how I learned what CLOS is really about. 2021-02-17T09:42:41Z gj: got it! i started with Practical Common Lisp. i also read a few chapters of Land Of Lisp, which was quite enjoyable. 2021-02-17T09:44:26Z mrcom quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-17T09:46:55Z beach: My (admittedly small) family gave me "Land of Lisp" for my birthday. I am disappointed by the seemingly total lack of respect for established terminology. 2021-02-17T09:47:29Z beach: Like Common Lisp does not have any "commands" as it claims (plus it uses "command" both to mean "form" and "operator"). 2021-02-17T09:47:57Z beach: And it says (let (variable declarations) ...) but those are "bindings", not declarations. 2021-02-17T09:48:15Z beach: And that's just after a chapter and a half. 2021-02-17T09:50:37Z gj: hmm, so is the problem only in the wording of the book? 2021-02-17T09:50:45Z beach: Only? 2021-02-17T09:50:51Z beach: I think it is an absolute requirement for meaningful exchanges to use the right terminology. 2021-02-17T09:52:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-17T09:53:12Z gj: ah 'only' was not the right word there. i meant: is there still benefit in following along with the examples and exercises, despite the lack of respect for the established lisp terminology? 2021-02-17T09:53:36Z beach: It looks like that so far, yes. 2021-02-17T09:55:14Z gj: i quite like the idea that is put forward in chapter 5, a text-based game adventure 2021-02-17T10:03:12Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-17T10:10:03Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-17T10:11:32Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-17T10:13:36Z dhil joined #lisp 2021-02-17T10:17:11Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-17T10:18:00Z admich quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-17T10:26:58Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-17T10:28:13Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-17T10:35:36Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T10:43:41Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-17T10:45:49Z Nilby` joined #lisp 2021-02-17T10:47:47Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-17T10:48:27Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-17T10:50:26Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-17T10:55:14Z Nilby` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-17T10:56:37Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-17T10:57:04Z admich joined #lisp 2021-02-17T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-17T11:08:32Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-02-17T11:08:44Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-17T11:14:48Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-17T11:16:45Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-02-17T11:23:27Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-17T11:31:25Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T11:37:49Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T11:45:09Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T11:45:35Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-17T11:49:22Z VincentVega: Does anyone know of a preexisting function for this: https://pastebin.com/TEGAUYm3 2021-02-17T11:49:54Z VincentVega: also kind of interested in how one would approach this in a functional manner 2021-02-17T11:51:33Z jackdaniel: I don't get the part about checking for keywords first and returning when the remainder is not a plist with keys being keywords 2021-02-17T11:52:05Z jackdaniel: other than that, alexandria:plist-alist gives you '(:a 1 :b 2) -> '((:a . 1) (:b . 2)) 2021-02-17T11:52:49Z mrcom quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-17T11:54:11Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-17T11:54:20Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-17T11:59:35Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: it's sometimes customary to supply extra args before the body in some macros like that, that's what I was looking for : ) 2021-02-17T12:03:06Z heisig: VincentVega: ...and here is your functional implementation of the same thing: https://gist.github.com/marcoheisig/646de30c95908ef131de71d67e7b176b 2021-02-17T12:03:11Z admich` joined #lisp 2021-02-17T12:04:03Z TMA: I like the (macro-name (extra-args...) body) idiom better 2021-02-17T12:04:39Z VincentVega: TMA: well, that's what i have unfortunately in another library : ( 2021-02-17T12:04:40Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-17T12:05:18Z VincentVega: TMA: although, not really unfortunately, it just works out there nicely 2021-02-17T12:05:28Z admich quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-17T12:07:54Z VincentVega: heisig: thanks, though the original example is to split the sequence like (:keyword expr1 :some-keyword expr2  ) into ((:keyword expr1) (:some-keyword expr2)) and ( ) 2021-02-17T12:09:48Z davros quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T12:10:04Z heisig: Oh, sorry, I hadn't looked at the example so closely. In that case, simply replace the error clause with something else. Or listen to TMA's advice. 2021-02-17T12:13:44Z VincentVega: heisig: ok, trivia:match seems like a decent approach for this, thank you! 2021-02-17T12:18:33Z davros joined #lisp 2021-02-17T12:23:26Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-17T12:23:31Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-17T12:29:28Z admich` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-17T12:30:06Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-02-17T12:44:46Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-17T12:46:35Z rogersm_ quit 2021-02-17T12:48:05Z jmercouris: I want to call a function, can I know if it accepts key arguments or not? 2021-02-17T12:48:14Z jmercouris: AND can I test if it accepts a specific key argument? 2021-02-17T12:48:27Z jmercouris: obviously I COULD try to funcall it and have a condition 2021-02-17T12:48:30Z jmercouris: but is there another way? 2021-02-17T12:48:37Z jmercouris: I don't want to trigger errant conditions left and right 2021-02-17T12:48:55Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T12:49:06Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-17T12:49:55Z jmercouris: maybe I use symbol function and inspect 2021-02-17T12:50:22Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T12:50:26Z heisig: jmercouris: You could try https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-arguments and check the lambda list. 2021-02-17T12:51:01Z jmercouris: swank::arglist 2021-02-17T12:51:03Z jmercouris: Aha, that is it 2021-02-17T12:51:10Z jmercouris: trivial arguments is not nearly as good 2021-02-17T12:51:17Z jmercouris: and then, the key arguments are like this 2021-02-17T12:51:28Z jmercouris: (nth-value 3 (alex:parse-ordinary-lambda-list argument-list)) 2021-02-17T12:51:47Z jmercouris: it was a good suggestion though, thanks 2021-02-17T12:55:24Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-17T13:06:29Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-17T13:06:40Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-17T13:12:36Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T13:17:28Z jrm joined #lisp 2021-02-17T13:21:38Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-17T13:23:59Z drl joined #lisp 2021-02-17T13:27:33Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-17T13:30:15Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-17T13:30:35Z nebh^ quit 2021-02-17T13:48:23Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-17T13:48:35Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-02-17T13:50:02Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-17T13:54:42Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T13:56:28Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-17T13:57:45Z Xach joined #lisp 2021-02-17T13:58:56Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T14:02:00Z prxq quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-17T14:02:12Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-02-17T14:15:25Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-17T14:32:26Z REDman2k1 quit (Quit: Ohhhhhh Yeah Baby, I've got LitilScript!) 2021-02-17T14:34:00Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T14:35:40Z Josh_2: Afternoon 2021-02-17T14:35:58Z beach: Hello Josh_2. 2021-02-17T14:38:51Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-17T14:39:09Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T14:40:43Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-17T14:41:25Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-17T14:44:38Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-17T14:45:45Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-17T14:49:20Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-17T14:50:27Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T14:53:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T14:53:53Z veera joined #lisp 2021-02-17T14:57:13Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-02-17T14:57:20Z ldb: good evening 2021-02-17T14:59:19Z astronavt quit (Quit: ...) 2021-02-17T14:59:30Z veera is now known as Veera 2021-02-17T15:01:16Z astronavt joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:04:31Z Veera53 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:05:12Z Veera53 is now known as VeeBoi 2021-02-17T15:11:34Z jealousmonk_ quit (Quit: Long live IRC!) 2021-02-17T15:12:06Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-17T15:12:23Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:12:33Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:12:37Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:15:08Z ikrabbe: I'm creating my first bigger McClim Application and want a command to clear the interactor pane. How can I do that? 2021-02-17T15:15:33Z beach: I think #clim is a better channel for that. 2021-02-17T15:16:01Z beach: You should be able to delete the entire output history. 2021-02-17T15:17:40Z beach: Try CLEAR-WINDOW. 2021-02-17T15:18:09Z beach: "If window has an output history, that is cleared as well." 2021-02-17T15:19:03Z beach: Section 29.4.4 2021-02-17T15:19:08Z beach: First entry. 2021-02-17T15:23:32Z Veera quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8) 2021-02-17T15:25:06Z beach: ikrabbe: Did you see my answer? 2021-02-17T15:30:05Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:31:56Z dhil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-17T15:32:00Z ikrabbe: hmm, yes thank you, I need to buy some catfood, than I will try ;) 2021-02-17T15:32:42Z beach: OK, good luck. 2021-02-17T15:32:50Z beach: Mainly with McCLIM. 2021-02-17T15:37:19Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-17T15:40:48Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-17T15:41:16Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:43:45Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-17T15:44:18Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T15:44:26Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:44:53Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:45:39Z wsinatra quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-17T15:49:33Z _Posterdati_ joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:50:52Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-17T15:52:00Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-17T15:52:13Z veera joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:52:38Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:55:34Z veera quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-17T15:55:51Z dbotton: Does anyone have an example of asdf files used for project and subprojects? (Assuming this right thing for me) 2021-02-17T15:56:38Z dbotton: I have the clog project and I want subdirectories with various tools I want to write 2021-02-17T15:57:05Z dbotton: I guess the idea is can build or not build the tools etc 2021-02-17T15:58:02Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-17T15:58:21Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-17T15:59:06Z jackdaniel: dbotton: say you have a main system "clog" in clog.asd -- asdf proposes, that you should create subsystems, i.e "clog/examples" in the same file 2021-02-17T15:59:15Z jmercouris: note that THEY MUST use a slash 2021-02-17T15:59:23Z jmercouris: if you try to use other characters, you're going to have a bad time 2021-02-17T15:59:49Z jmercouris: dbotton: if you want an example, albeit a complex one, you can look at Nyxt's asd file 2021-02-17T15:59:56Z jmercouris: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt/blob/master/nyxt.asd 2021-02-17T16:00:21Z dbotton: Thanks! 2021-02-17T16:00:51Z VeeBoi quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-17T16:00:52Z jmercouris: you are welcome 2021-02-17T16:01:12Z jackdaniel: system names are of type string (not a keyword), you may consider changing that (however asdf gets out of its way to coerce them) 2021-02-17T16:01:26Z VeeBoi joined #lisp 2021-02-17T16:02:31Z jackdaniel: also, it is not that they must use slash - it is just if asd file with a system that name does not match the file name is not loaded, asdf won't know where to look for it 2021-02-17T16:02:41Z jackdaniel: and if you load that file, it will gleefully complain with some warnings 2021-02-17T16:03:27Z jmercouris: yeah, they "dont need" a slashh, but if you use another character... well, good luck to you 2021-02-17T16:03:46Z jmercouris: first you must load xyz 2021-02-17T16:03:48Z jmercouris: then xyz-salmon 2021-02-17T16:03:58Z jmercouris: instead of being able to simply specify xyz/salmon 2021-02-17T16:04:18Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-17T16:04:29Z VeeBoi quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-17T16:06:01Z dbotton: Great I'll give it a whirl 2021-02-17T16:06:59Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-17T16:07:28Z jmercouris: sleepety sleep mr computer :-) 2021-02-17T16:14:34Z dyelar joined #lisp 2021-02-17T16:22:33Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2021-02-17T16:26:57Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-17T16:29:45Z brandflake11 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T16:31:09Z brandflake11: Hey all, is it possible to bind a global variable within a defun with let, to make the global variable only defined a certain way locally within a function? 2021-02-17T16:31:24Z jmercouris: yes 2021-02-17T16:31:51Z jmercouris: however your sentence is very confusing, so can you please explain what it is you are trying to do 2021-02-17T16:32:32Z jmercouris: (defparameter q 10) (defun printy () (let ((q 5)) (print q))) (printy) 2021-02-17T16:33:02Z brandflake11: jmercouris: I'm sorry about that. I have a lisp defun I am working with, and I need some help with it. Would you take a look at it? 2021-02-17T16:33:19Z beach: Put it on a paste site. 2021-02-17T16:33:25Z brandflake11: OK! 2021-02-17T16:33:33Z beach: For instance, plaster.tymoon.eu 2021-02-17T16:33:51Z Josh_2: yes you can overwrite the value of a global variable only within a single let 2021-02-17T16:34:57Z brandflake11: Here is a link: https://pastebin.com/Cv8Gm8Bf 2021-02-17T16:35:08Z brandflake11: Okay, so this is using Common Music 2021-02-17T16:35:26Z brandflake11: And what it does is generates midi output through jack 2021-02-17T16:35:45Z brandflake11: The (events) function is what generates the midi output 2021-02-17T16:35:52Z Josh_2: if you wrap the bottom (events .. ) in the let above it'll change the value of bpm 2021-02-17T16:36:17Z Josh_2: (let ((bpm 200)) (events (one-note 22 bpm 1) *rts-out*)) instead 2021-02-17T16:36:54Z beach: Josh_2: The code is badly indented. 2021-02-17T16:37:17Z beach: Josh_2: It is already wrapped. 2021-02-17T16:37:28Z Josh_2: oh right yes 2021-02-17T16:37:30Z Josh_2: my mistake 2021-02-17T16:37:51Z brandflake11: Josh_2: No problem, I was about to say it's the same! :) 2021-02-17T16:37:58Z Josh_2: seems to me you are already doing what you asked? 2021-02-17T16:38:02Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-17T16:38:07Z beach: brandflake11: So which is the "global variable" you want to change? 2021-02-17T16:38:22Z brandflake11: It's the *tempo* variable. It doesn't seem to be changing the tempo of the midi out 2021-02-17T16:38:46Z brandflake11: The wait at the bottom of the defun should be doing it, but for some reason it doesn't 2021-02-17T16:38:56Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-17T16:38:56Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-17T16:39:13Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T16:39:47Z beach: Oh, wait, are you using multiple threads? 2021-02-17T16:39:49Z brandflake11: You can pass in a variable with let like I've done at the bottom near the events, right? 2021-02-17T16:40:03Z brandflake11: beach: How do you know if you're using multiple threads? 2021-02-17T16:40:12Z jmercouris: check to see if bordeaux threads is present 2021-02-17T16:40:18Z jmercouris: it should be in the asd 2021-02-17T16:40:23Z jmercouris: look for bt:make-thread 2021-02-17T16:40:24Z beach: I think you had better know that if you want to understand what the code is doing. 2021-02-17T16:40:45Z beach: jmercouris: Common Music may have been created before Bordeaux threads existed. 2021-02-17T16:40:47Z brandflake11: How do I check in the asd? I'm sorry for the noob question 2021-02-17T16:40:49Z jmercouris: I see 2021-02-17T16:41:01Z brandflake11: beach: Well this is a modified Common Music to be used with Incudine 2021-02-17T16:41:19Z brandflake11: So it might be using multiple threads 2021-02-17T16:41:52Z beach: brandflake11: My guess is that it is in a different thread that the *tempo* variable is used, and you can't transmit a bound value across threads like that. 2021-02-17T16:42:09Z brandflake11: Just checked the incudine website, http://incudine.sourceforge.net/, it uses bordeaux threads 2021-02-17T16:42:16Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-17T16:42:16Z beach: Oh, good! 2021-02-17T16:42:24Z brandflake11: beach: What can you do to keep it in the same thread? 2021-02-17T16:42:43Z brandflake11: beach: I had no idea that this was a thing you have to watch out for! 2021-02-17T16:42:47Z beach: You probably don't want to keep it in the same thread. 2021-02-17T16:43:15Z beach: brandflake11: Are you just a user of this thing, or are you working on it? 2021-02-17T16:43:31Z brandflake11: beach: I am just a user right now. I've been learning it for music composition 2021-02-17T16:43:39Z brandflake11: beach: I'm learning lisp and common music at the same time 2021-02-17T16:43:47Z beach: I see. 2021-02-17T16:44:28Z brandflake11: beach: How could I reformat this to avoid the threads problem? Should I not use let at the top of defun with a global variable? 2021-02-17T16:45:24Z beach: Well, one way would be to assign a new global value to *tempo*, but you started by saying that you don't want that. 2021-02-17T16:45:29Z Josh_2: you might have to just (setf *tempo* ..) 2021-02-17T16:46:17Z beach: Maybe (let ((save *tempo*)) (setf *tempo* 200) (one-note ...) (setf *tempo* save)) 2021-02-17T16:46:25Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T16:46:35Z beach: Then you won't have to figure out how to initialize it in a new thread. 2021-02-17T16:46:41Z beach: But it is a kludge. 2021-02-17T16:46:44Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-02-17T16:46:49Z brandflake11: beach: I don't mind kludge :) 2021-02-17T16:47:20Z beach: By not binding it with LET, you set the global value, so all threads should then see that new value. 2021-02-17T16:47:49Z brandflake11: beach: Oh, maybe that's why *tempo* is global 2021-02-17T16:47:58Z beach: Possibly. 2021-02-17T16:48:09Z beach: I don't know enough about Common Music. 2021-02-17T16:48:10Z Josh_2: You can write a macro like (with-new-tempo ().. ) which does what beach showed automatically 2021-02-17T16:48:17Z Josh_2: that way you don't have to worry about forgetting to reset the value 2021-02-17T16:48:32Z beach: ... and include an UNWIND-PROTECT too. 2021-02-17T16:49:11Z brandflake11: Josh_2: I haven't learned macro yet, but I need to. What does unwind-protect do? I've seen it used in the book I'm using 2021-02-17T16:49:20Z brandflake11: to learn common music 2021-02-17T16:49:34Z beach: It would set the value back even if there is an error. 2021-02-17T16:49:42Z brandflake11: beach: Okay, thanks! 2021-02-17T16:49:49Z beach: clhs unwind-protect 2021-02-17T16:49:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_unwind.htm 2021-02-17T16:52:02Z brandflake11: Thank you everyone for your help 2021-02-17T16:52:20Z beach: Pleasure. Good luck! 2021-02-17T16:52:27Z brandflake11: beach: The solution you gave, I didn't think about that. You can just set it, and then reset it back! I should've thought of that! 2021-02-17T16:52:37Z beach: Does it work? 2021-02-17T16:52:43Z brandflake11: beach: Let me try it! 2021-02-17T16:54:00Z brandflake11: beach: It works! 2021-02-17T16:54:06Z beach: Great! That might be the best solution for now then, until you know more about threads. 2021-02-17T16:55:11Z brandflake11: One more thing: I've been reading through Lisp 3rd edition to get more fundamentals in lisp. Is this a good book for learning the language itself? 2021-02-17T16:55:19Z ym joined #lisp 2021-02-17T16:55:52Z beach: Er, by what author(s)? 2021-02-17T16:56:06Z brandflake11: Oh, by Partick Henry Winston and Berthold Klaus Paul Horn 2021-02-17T16:56:08Z beach: minion: Please tell brandflake11 about PCL. 2021-02-17T16:56:09Z minion: brandflake11: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 2021-02-17T16:56:40Z beach: brandflake11: I don't have the third edition, but PCL is more close to what we do these days. 2021-02-17T16:57:16Z brandflake11: beach: Okay thanks! I learned some about loops from that book! 2021-02-17T16:57:18Z ldb: what is dead-tree form 2021-02-17T16:57:30Z brandflake11: ldb: I think it's a snarky term for paper 2021-02-17T16:57:36Z beach: Oh, it's from 1989. Then it is way too old. 2021-02-17T16:57:58Z brandflake11: beach: I guess the language has changed a lot since then? 2021-02-17T16:58:00Z Josh_2: brandflake11: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2306#2306 here is an example of a macro you could use 2021-02-17T16:58:07Z beach: The ANSI standard is from 1994, so books should be newer than that. 2021-02-17T16:58:21Z brandflake11: beach: Oh, that makes sense 2021-02-17T16:58:27Z beach: brandflake11: Yes, CLOS was not included before that. 2021-02-17T16:58:48Z brandflake11: beach: Oh man, I'm so glad I asked then 2021-02-17T16:59:04Z beach: PCL is available online, so I would use that instead. 2021-02-17T16:59:19Z Josh_2: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2021-02-17T16:59:25Z brandflake11: beach: That's nice. I can read it with emacs then! 2021-02-17T16:59:26Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-17T16:59:26Z Josh_2: oh right minion :P 2021-02-17T16:59:37Z beach: minion: Thanks! 2021-02-17T16:59:38Z minion: np 2021-02-17T17:00:30Z brandflake11: Josh_2: Thanks for the example. Although, there is a lot there that I don't grasp yet, I'll definitely save it and take a look at it later when I learn about macros 2021-02-17T17:01:19Z jmercouris: minion: thanks 2021-02-17T17:01:19Z minion: no problem 2021-02-17T17:07:03Z brandflake11: So, one problem that I've uncovered with this example that I gave you all, is the bpm argument in the defun doesn't matter. 2021-02-17T17:08:19Z beach: Or you can move the code to set *tempo* inside one-note. 2021-02-17T17:09:33Z brandflake11: beach: I was just trying that, but I get an error 2021-02-17T17:09:38Z brandflake11: ; Evaluation aborted on #. 2021-02-17T17:09:54Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-17T17:09:55Z brandflake11: beach: Oh actually nvm, that was a mistake from earlier 2021-02-17T17:10:20Z brandflake11: But, it seems that it doesn't output any midi now 2021-02-17T17:10:21Z beach: (defun one-note (root bpm amount) (with-new-tempo (...) (output ...)...)) 2021-02-17T17:10:44Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T17:11:26Z brandflake11: Here is my new defun https://pastebin.com/EJ2zYYP5 2021-02-17T17:11:39Z brandflake11: Is this also the same threading problem? 2021-02-17T17:13:02Z beach: If the previous code worked, this code ought to work as well. 2021-02-17T17:14:31Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T17:15:27Z brandflake11: beach: It's interesting, because it even prints the value of *tempo* when I run the (event), but no output. Maybe I don't know enough about Common Music. The (process) function does have its own scheduler, so maybe that's the reason it doesn't work. 2021-02-17T17:15:46Z masteredanxiety joined #lisp 2021-02-17T17:16:38Z beach: I am afraid I don't know. 2021-02-17T17:17:02Z brandflake11: beach: No problem! I'll keep digging! 2021-02-17T17:17:07Z brandflake11: beach: Thanks again! 2021-02-17T17:17:15Z beach: Sure. 2021-02-17T17:18:10Z easye: Is there a semi-portable ADVICE facility for CL? I can't seem to find one easily... 2021-02-17T17:20:00Z beach: Remind me what it does! 2021-02-17T17:20:57Z beach: Isn't that the one used as a poor substitute for generic functions? 2021-02-17T17:22:18Z masteredanxiety quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T17:22:21Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-17T17:26:05Z beach: Never mind. I'll look it up. 2021-02-17T17:26:13Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-17T17:33:14Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-02-17T17:33:28Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-17T17:33:57Z warweasle: I forgot how much I love lisp. It's so much fun to solve problems with it. 2021-02-17T17:34:37Z contrapunctus: warweasle: weren't you the one who made something with Lisp and has a demo of it on YouTube, a long time ago? 🤔 2021-02-17T17:35:17Z warweasle: contrapunctus: I assume I am *one* of those people. I tried to write a game engine in lisp called CLinch. 2021-02-17T17:35:51Z contrapunctus: Ah nice ^^ 2021-02-17T17:36:48Z warweasle: I got tired of working alone so I moved to unreal engine. But I've been taking a break because reasons. 2021-02-17T17:41:37Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-17T17:42:23Z Josh_2: CL on unreal :P 2021-02-17T17:44:06Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-17T17:44:11Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-17T17:46:13Z masanx joined #lisp 2021-02-17T17:46:41Z svetlyak40wt: Josh_2: this engine should be called UnreaCL 2021-02-17T17:46:46Z Josh_2: yes! 2021-02-17T17:47:15Z Ailrk is now known as ailrk 2021-02-17T17:48:00Z warweasle: svetlyak40wt: I'm partial to CLinch. 2021-02-17T17:48:09Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-17T17:48:43Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-17T17:50:09Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T17:53:41Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T17:56:54Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-17T17:58:30Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T17:59:30Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-17T18:03:45Z masanx quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2021-02-17T18:04:40Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-17T18:04:44Z nij: A quine is a list that evaluates to itself, e.g. http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/quine.htm 2021-02-17T18:04:51Z nij: Is there a list L = (lambda (meal) .. (:in x1 x2 .. xn) ..) such that (L y) evaluates to (lambda (meal) .. (:in x1 x2 .. xn y) ..) 2021-02-17T18:04:51Z nij: ? 2021-02-17T18:05:01Z brandflake11 left #lisp 2021-02-17T18:05:40Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-17T18:06:31Z Bike: if you're restricting it to only lambda expressions, maybe not 2021-02-17T18:06:41Z Bike: but you can certainly write modified quines of that kind if you really want to 2021-02-17T18:07:12Z nij: Bike: I've thought about it and brain's gonna bleed. 2021-02-17T18:07:23Z nij: The quine was already clever for me. 2021-02-17T18:07:57Z nij: Bike: if not restricted with lambda expressions, what'd be a strategy? 2021-02-17T18:08:03Z Bike: what i mean is that a lisp quine would be, like, ((lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ',x))) for example. the argument you pass is part of it 2021-02-17T18:08:43Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T18:10:05Z nij: But can you turn the quine into a "slurping quine"? 2021-02-17T18:10:15Z nij: It slurps the argument insides of it, and can keep slurping. 2021-02-17T18:11:12Z Bike: probably yeah 2021-02-17T18:13:19Z Bike: not really motivated to actually do it, though 2021-02-17T18:14:42Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-17T18:17:55Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T18:18:44Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T18:19:26Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-17T18:21:19Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T18:22:39Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-17T18:24:14Z easye: beach: re: Remind me what it does ... poor substitute for generic functions: yes, for debugging something that I want to hoist the DEFUNs. I can do this at compile time. 2021-02-17T18:24:41Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-17T18:25:22Z mfiano: #1=(write '#1# :circle t) 2021-02-17T18:33:14Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-02-17T18:33:41Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T18:33:46Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T18:34:00Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T18:34:38Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T18:36:50Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T18:43:56Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-17T18:45:54Z rozengla` joined #lisp 2021-02-17T18:47:30Z rozenglass quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-17T18:56:24Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-17T19:00:19Z CrazyPython joined #lisp 2021-02-17T19:15:59Z sveit joined #lisp 2021-02-17T19:16:01Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T19:16:29Z simplegauss joined #lisp 2021-02-17T19:19:03Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-17T19:25:25Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T19:25:35Z CrazyPython quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T19:26:00Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T19:30:17Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-17T19:39:33Z frodef joined #lisp 2021-02-17T19:42:24Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T19:45:01Z attila_lendvai: can someone point me to the place in SBCL's sources, or anywhere else, like a blog post, where special variable lookup and asm representation is written up? 2021-02-17T19:45:40Z attila_lendvai: i'm having a lot of fun working on https://github.com/attila-lendvai/maru but time has come to consider adding special variables 2021-02-17T19:45:44Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T19:46:43Z Elephant454 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T19:46:48Z Elephant454 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T19:52:32Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-17T19:52:56Z warweasle left #lisp 2021-02-17T19:53:43Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-17T19:53:52Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-17T19:54:37Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-17T19:56:37Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-17T19:57:54Z Josh_2: crazy stuff 2021-02-17T19:58:07Z Josh_2: but maybe #sbcl is the place to ask 2021-02-17T19:59:13Z VincentVega: How do I match end of the list w/ trivia? https://pastebin.com/EGSRUXXG 2021-02-17T19:59:19Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T19:59:20Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-17T20:02:25Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-17T20:05:04Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T20:05:44Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-17T20:06:21Z Krystof: attila_lendvai: Chapter 9 of the SBCL internals manual, and src/compiler//cell.lisp 2021-02-17T20:06:50Z attila_lendvai: Krystof, thank you! 2021-02-17T20:07:43Z Krystof: (it's a short chapter: don't thank me too much :)) 2021-02-17T20:08:58Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T20:10:34Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-17T20:20:09Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T20:21:18Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T20:22:05Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T20:22:15Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-17T20:22:30Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-17T20:23:56Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-17T20:24:15Z heisig: VincentVega: I don't think such a thing can be expressed in the pattern matching grammar of Trivia. Your best chance is to use a (list* ...) pattern and some custom code. 2021-02-17T20:25:27Z heisig: A useful feature for such custom processing is that you can call (trivia.fail:fail) to give up executing this clause and to proceed to the next one. 2021-02-17T20:26:51Z epony joined #lisp 2021-02-17T20:29:06Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-17T20:31:24Z VincentVega: heisig: thanks! I am new to the package, so this clears up my doubt about maybe misunderstanding it. 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Anyway, for now I can work with it. 2021-02-17T22:48:35Z ikrabbe: I wonder if I can simply replace the interactor pane with a fresh one. 2021-02-17T22:48:59Z ikrabbe: but I should move to #clim with these questions... 2021-02-17T22:51:03Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T22:52:24Z devon joined #lisp 2021-02-17T22:53:52Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T23:01:09Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-17T23:02:21Z dtman34 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-17T23:03:33Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-02-17T23:04:01Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T23:05:04Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-17T23:05:09Z dtman34 joined #lisp 2021-02-17T23:08:52Z Josh_2: converted like 1200 SLOC of Python to CL, got another 800 or so to go, and then all the tests 2021-02-17T23:08:54Z Josh_2: what a right pita 2021-02-17T23:09:19Z Josh_2: doesn't help It's all FFI so I have to think, think again and then think one more time to make sure I'm not messing up 2021-02-17T23:10:23Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2021-02-17T23:10:31Z bendersteed quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T23:11:33Z bendersteed joined #lisp 2021-02-17T23:11:49Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-17T23:13:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-17T23:14:11Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-17T23:15:41Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-17T23:17:26Z saturn2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1) 2021-02-17T23:17:53Z clone_of_saturn joined #lisp 2021-02-17T23:17:57Z clone_of_saturn is now known as saturn2 2021-02-17T23:18:41Z bmansurov_ quit (Quit: 👋) 2021-02-17T23:19:30Z bmansurov joined #lisp 2021-02-17T23:25:29Z bendersteed quit (Quit: bye folks) 2021-02-17T23:34:17Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-17T23:36:15Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-17T23:38:57Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-17T23:39:47Z markasoftware: it's fine for me to subclass `function`, right? If i wanted to make a generic function-like system for example 2021-02-17T23:42:03Z markasoftware: though i'm not sure how i would instantiate it... 2021-02-17T23:44:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-17T23:44:31Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-17T23:47:03Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-17T23:48:59Z scymtym: markasoftware: you can use the (:metaclass funcallable-standard-class) option for your class, make instances as always using MAKE-INSTANCE and SET-FUNCALLABLE-INSTANCE-FUNCTION to install the "behavior" of those instances 2021-02-17T23:51:08Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-17T23:52:11Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-02-17T23:56:40Z mrcom joined #lisp 2021-02-17T23:58:19Z ozzloy: i'm using read-delimited-list and keep forgetting to end my input with ~ 2021-02-18T00:00:14Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-18T00:03:52Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T00:08:43Z ozzloy: i'm running a script where i am making an AI. how do i recover from not having a ~ at the end? if i type it after hitting it doesn't work 2021-02-18T00:09:36Z Bike: if you're getting an end of file, you could just recover from that 2021-02-18T00:10:14Z Bike: hm, or maybe that's not as easy as i though 2021-02-18T00:10:21Z Bike: instead of a delimited list you could just READ repeatedly, then 2021-02-18T00:14:08Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T00:14:45Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-18T00:31:07Z zdm quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb1~bpo10+1 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-18T00:31:21Z zdm joined #lisp 2021-02-18T00:32:04Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-18T00:33:18Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-18T00:33:38Z cpt_nemo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T00:33:45Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp 2021-02-18T00:36:05Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-18T00:38:57Z ilshad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T00:39:42Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-18T00:51:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T00:53:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-18T00:55:31Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T01:00:11Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T01:01:45Z red-dot quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T01:02:30Z red-dot joined #lisp 2021-02-18T01:07:23Z ilshad joined #lisp 2021-02-18T01:14:33Z casual_friday__ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T01:17:54Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T01:22:50Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T01:24:48Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-02-18T01:29:42Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-02-18T01:30:27Z ilshad` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T01:33:36Z ilshad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T01:36:38Z bdixat joined #lisp 2021-02-18T01:41:12Z ilshad` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-18T01:48:54Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T01:58:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T02:00:16Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-18T02:04:17Z kopiyka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T02:08:31Z markasoftware: thank you scymtym! 2021-02-18T02:17:57Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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seconds) 2021-02-18T03:30:09Z jlpeters joined #lisp 2021-02-18T03:30:29Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T03:35:12Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T03:37:37Z ilshad` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T03:38:53Z ym joined #lisp 2021-02-18T03:45:41Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T04:01:10Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T04:02:25Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-18T04:02:57Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-18T04:03:05Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-18T04:05:02Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T04:11:18Z ilshad` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T04:24:32Z rozengla` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T04:25:52Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T04:29:03Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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FUNCTION, SETQ, and any special operator or macro. If it were evaluated, then it would be a function. 2021-02-18T04:56:30Z winny joined #lisp 2021-02-18T04:56:38Z beach: It's kind of by definition. If an operator can be a function, then it is. 2021-02-18T04:57:04Z charles`: ah, but the code inside is executed at some point. where with declaim, at not point is it executed 2021-02-18T04:57:39Z Bike: the argument to FUNCTION is not evaluated 2021-02-18T04:58:16Z Bike: innumerable operators only evaluate some of their syntax 2021-02-18T04:58:34Z beach: charles`: Most special operators and macros take a mixture of expressions. Some expressions are meant to be evaluated and they are then called "forms". Others aren't. 2021-02-18T04:59:25Z beach: charles`: Like LET for instance. The first argument is a list of bindings, and the remaining arguments are declarations and forms. 2021-02-18T05:00:04Z beach: charles`: For SETQ and SETF, the odd arguments are not evaluated, and the even ones are. 2021-02-18T05:00:15Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T05:00:35Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T05:03:10Z Bike quit (Quit: sleep) 2021-02-18T05:08:26Z ilshad` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T05:10:00Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T05:11:59Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T05:12:23Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T05:12:49Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T05:14:21Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T05:17:15Z charles`: wow, I really confused myself. I realize now that I meant to be asking about macro expansion. In (declare (type (and blah... AND doesn't get macroexpanded whereas if I have (setf sym (and blah... AND will get macroexpanded 2021-02-18T05:18:24Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-18T05:20:09Z beach: charles`: Yes, the term is "form". If it is a "form" then it gets evaluated, and thus macroexpanded. But there are cases where an expression is macroexpanded even though it is not a form. 2021-02-18T05:20:15Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T05:21:04Z beach: A DECLARE expression has no forms in it, and nothing is macroexpanded. 2021-02-18T05:24:30Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-18T05:33:31Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-18T05:34:17Z charles`: beach, in case you were wondering. The function that I need to be tailrec optimized was indeed written tail recursively. 2021-02-18T05:34:47Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T05:36:00Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-18T05:40:50Z beach: OK. 2021-02-18T05:40:57Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-18T05:42:01Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T05:43:09Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T05:59:16Z landakram joined #lisp 2021-02-18T06:06:26Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T06:06:53Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-18T06:08:59Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T06:09:25Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-02-18T06:10:51Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-18T06:10:52Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T06:12:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T06:12:26Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T06:15:52Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T06:17:41Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-18T06:18:42Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T06:21:07Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-18T06:22:56Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I don't suppose anyone has a catchy mnemonic for this? :) 2021-02-18T06:47:08Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-18T06:47:45Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T06:49:03Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T06:49:23Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-18T06:50:03Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-18T06:55:50Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-18T06:56:40Z jackdani1l: lukego: I've made one for you! ppc (like an architecture) (c)r(ing)e 2021-02-18T06:56:47Z jackdani1l is now known as jackdaniel 2021-02-18T06:56:53Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-02-18T06:57:36Z lukego: thanks :) "ppc like the architecture" should get me over the hup. I'm doing a lot of "ccpre" and "cppre" mistakes :) 2021-02-18T06:58:00Z lukego: I guess it's the whole "c rhymes with p" thing 2021-02-18T06:59:06Z lukego: and mysteriously conjuring up "c-compatible" when I'm supposed to be thinking "portable perl" :) 2021-02-18T07:03:36Z jrm quit (Quit: ciao) 2021-02-18T07:03:53Z jrm joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:04:49Z ilshad` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:06:24Z vsync joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:08:31Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T07:09:54Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T07:11:10Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:13:55Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-18T07:18:20Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:20:04Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:21:54Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:25:38Z fiddlerwoaroof_: sounds like you need a package-local-nickname 2021-02-18T07:26:20Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:26:27Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:26:42Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T07:27:33Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T07:28:42Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:32:57Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-18T07:33:15Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:38:17Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-18T07:41:02Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-18T07:42:36Z engblom quit (Changing host) 2021-02-18T07:42:36Z engblom joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:48:14Z cchristiansen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T07:51:32Z housel joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:54:06Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-18T07:56:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T08:01:12Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T08:01:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:03:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T08:04:04Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T08:06:35Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-02-18T08:07:59Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:09:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:10:51Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:14:52Z jackdaniel: (add-package-local-nickname 'ppcre 'ppc-cringe) 2021-02-18T08:15:05Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T08:16:54Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:18:59Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T08:19:46Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:20:36Z Gromboli quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2021-02-18T08:20:56Z Gromboli joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:23:33Z splittist: I find that the moment a word becomes something I'm going to typing a lot - say, I'm creating a bunch of functions with a DOCUMENT parameter - then my fingers will switch to DOUCMENT or DOCUMNET or anything except the correct spelling. Once I'm using the word only occasionally, the correct sequence becomes automatic again. 2021-02-18T08:23:57Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T08:25:07Z gj joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:25:09Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T08:26:00Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:26:22Z beach: Interesting. My fingers are unable to type "the", and instead almost always come up with "teh", and this happens so often that I have an Emacs abbrev that turns the wrong version into the correct one. The same thing happens with "language", and some others as well. 2021-02-18T08:26:48Z seeg123449 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-18T08:26:57Z gj: oh that is very interesting! 2021-02-18T08:27:33Z gj: since i switched to the dvorak keyboard, i do not have any problem with spelling. 2021-02-18T08:28:46Z beach: That's also interesting. 2021-02-18T08:28:46Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:29:39Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:31:03Z fosred joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:32:08Z jdz: I'm using dvorak, and the other day I was repeatedly typing "lusk" instead of "luks". 2021-02-18T08:32:56Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:33:31Z gj: hmm, there are a few strange words to type using dvorak, definitely. 2021-02-18T08:37:24Z beach: Also, it was created for the English language, right? I use three languages every day, so I think I am better off with a design that is equally bad for all three. 2021-02-18T08:37:51Z luni: good morning #lisp 2021-02-18T08:38:19Z beach: Hello luni. 2021-02-18T08:38:55Z gj: dvorak was created for english, but other language variants exist. 2021-02-18T08:39:19Z beach: Oh, but I wouldn't want to change the layout every time I use a different language. 2021-02-18T08:40:00Z contrapunctus: I've recently switched to Dvorak and I really like that - is on the home row...perfect for Lisp code 🙂 2021-02-18T08:40:20Z gj: so many Dvorak users in one place, wow! 2021-02-18T08:40:59Z contrapunctus: And I was just looking at keyswap-mode, to swap [] with () in Lisp (or maybe all) buffers 2021-02-18T08:41:00Z gj: yes, i find Dvorak is very good for programming. 2021-02-18T08:41:28Z gj: that is interesting, have you heard of space cadet shift? 2021-02-18T08:42:05Z gj: it allows you to type parentheses by hitting shift, and shift still functions normally if you press and hold. 2021-02-18T08:42:22Z gj: i have found it very useful. 2021-02-18T08:50:26Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:50:27Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-18T08:54:33Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:54:48Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T08:59:33Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T09:03:44Z bdixat_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-18T09:03:56Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T09:04:02Z bdixat joined #lisp 2021-02-18T09:04:15Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T09:04:56Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T09:05:52Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T09:07:05Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-18T09:07:49Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T09:08:09Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T09:08:44Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-02-18T09:10:21Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-18T09:10:41Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-18T09:14:45Z FennecCode quit (Quit: IRCNow and Forever!) 2021-02-18T09:22:57Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T09:24:30Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-18T09:27:25Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T09:29:14Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-18T09:33:01Z Cymew: gj: Do you have some special hardware for that? 2021-02-18T09:43:02Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-18T09:43:18Z FennecCode joined #lisp 2021-02-18T09:43:22Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T09:47:42Z ikrabbe: Good morning, does anyone know of a tex DVI implementation in common lisp? 2021-02-18T09:50:25Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-18T09:53:09Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T09:54:34Z flazh quit (Quit: flazh) 2021-02-18T09:54:45Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-02-18T09:55:37Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-18T10:02:51Z xvzf joined #lisp 2021-02-18T10:07:33Z gj joined #lisp 2021-02-18T10:09:28Z frgo quit 2021-02-18T10:13:23Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-18T10:20:19Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T10:20:43Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T10:20:54Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T10:21:48Z Stanley00_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T10:23:41Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-18T10:25:50Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T10:33:11Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T10:35:17Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T10:37:25Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T10:39:09Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-18T10:40:34Z xvzf quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-18T10:41:08Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-18T10:42:54Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-02-18T10:47:59Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-02-18T10:50:54Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-18T11:09:44Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:11:11Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:15:33Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-18T11:15:59Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:16:49Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:19:30Z villanella quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-18T11:20:38Z beach: So in chapter 2 of Land of Lisp, the author uses "command" to mean both "form" and "operator". He says that LET is used to "declare" variables, and the FLET and LABELS are used to "declare" functions. He uses "arguments" to mean "parameters" and his indentation of bodies of local functions is wrong. I personally find this kind of sloppiness unacceptable. 2021-02-18T11:24:01Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:27:10Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T11:28:56Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T11:31:53Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:34:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T11:35:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:38:49Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T11:40:52Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T11:41:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:41:57Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T11:41:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T11:43:12Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:44:02Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:45:29Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-18T11:45:46Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T11:46:24Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:47:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T11:50:11Z jello_pudding joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:50:38Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:51:06Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T11:52:09Z ilshad` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T11:54:49Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T11:54:56Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-18T11:55:28Z hhdave: jackdaniel: are you there? The private chat with you says you've diconnected 2021-02-18T11:59:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T12:01:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:01:36Z jackdaniel: yeah 2021-02-18T12:03:30Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T12:03:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:07:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:10:28Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-18T12:13:24Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:17:03Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:18:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T12:19:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:21:33Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T12:23:09Z hhdave: jackdaniel I got your message but I don't seem to be able to send to you on the direct chat. I closed it and tried to start another, but it just says 'waiting for connection'. Don't know if it's my end that's the problem. 2021-02-18T12:23:55Z ilshad` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:23:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T12:24:19Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:31:39Z kopiyka joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:34:01Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:34:43Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:35:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T12:36:37Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T12:36:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T12:37:09Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:37:34Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:37:57Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:46:03Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-18T12:48:10Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T12:50:02Z jmercouris: how to check if a string is a file path? 2021-02-18T12:50:07Z jmercouris: is there any way to reliably know? 2021-02-18T12:50:21Z jmercouris: I could check for a file:// protocol prefix, but then the user MUST specify that 2021-02-18T12:52:25Z jmercouris: (quri:uri-scheme (quri:uri "file:///root/slmon")) -> file 2021-02-18T12:55:47Z jackdaniel: what is a file path? 2021-02-18T12:55:56Z jmercouris: that's a good question 2021-02-18T12:56:11Z jmercouris: I'm not sure how to answer that, and it depends on the os 2021-02-18T12:57:50Z jackdaniel: if you want just check whether the file denoted by a pathname designator exists you may feed it to the function probe-file 2021-02-18T12:58:14Z ilshad` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T12:58:41Z jmercouris: that's expensive, but possible 2021-02-18T12:58:55Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T12:58:56Z jackdaniel: I don't understand what you've just said 2021-02-18T12:59:10Z jmercouris: it's expensive to probe if files exist on disk 2021-02-18T12:59:17Z jmercouris: though that /would/ work 2021-02-18T13:00:36Z jackdaniel: what do you want to check then? if not whether a string is a path to a file 2021-02-18T13:02:07Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T13:03:11Z edgar-rft: the only alternative I know would be using regular expressions what probably would be even more expensive 2021-02-18T13:04:52Z edgar-rft: where regular expressions only can check if a string *looks* like it *might* be a file path, it's not a reliable test at all 2021-02-18T13:06:05Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T13:10:13Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T13:13:20Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-18T13:18:35Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T13:23:37Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-18T13:24:56Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T13:28:47Z KUrare joined #lisp 2021-02-18T13:29:53Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T13:30:22Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-18T13:30:26Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-18T13:35:13Z flip214: does anyone know any papers that describes the advantages of CL? Especially recent comparisons to other languages would be welcome, if they mention monetary advantages as well it would be even better. 2021-02-18T13:35:57Z jackdaniel: starting a flipper running common lisp requires less coins than a one running C# 2021-02-18T13:39:02Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T13:39:33Z heisig: flip214: Discussions like "should we pick language A or language B" are rarely about facts. Maybe the best chance for CL is simply to outlive all the other languages. 2021-02-18T13:40:05Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T13:40:55Z heisig: Outliving the others could actually work. CL programs have very little bit rot, and don't require a lot of maintenance. So time is on our side :) 2021-02-18T13:41:49Z heisig: Contrast this with Python programs that have a half life of about four years. 2021-02-18T13:43:58Z flip214: heisig: yeah. I was asked about exactly these facts right now. And the half-life of other things is one of the major points in my argumentation. 2021-02-18T13:45:06Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T13:45:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T13:45:50Z luni: but the fact that the half life of dgemm to make an example is high does not means that people doesn't switch to python or xyz 2021-02-18T13:48:19Z heisig: flip214: Maybe you should simply gather a list of awesome CL programs that stood the test of time. Like Maxima, Screamer, CLIM, OpusModus, ACL2, ... 2021-02-18T13:49:39Z heisig: That would illustrate the point that by choosing CL as an implementation language, you have an increased chance of creating something profound and long-lasting. 2021-02-18T13:50:54Z flip214: heisig: thanks! I'm already mentioning that libraries from 1994 still work, but applications is another good point 2021-02-18T13:51:42Z flip214: still, I'd like to make a point about economic differences 2021-02-18T13:58:15Z heisig: flip214: You could also ask the developers of a large CL application (e.g., QPX) to share their experiences with your employer. First-hand testimony can be very convincing. 2021-02-18T14:00:46Z jmercouris: I would be careful to push such a decision on your employer, if they agree, you will be responsible for every failure 2021-02-18T14:01:08Z flip214: jmercouris: no risk no fun 2021-02-18T14:01:18Z jmercouris: regardless of whether the responsibility is justified, and don't worry, many employees will complain and say "tHiS iS sO mUcH eAsIer In Js" 2021-02-18T14:01:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T14:01:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:01:58Z jmercouris: good luck flip214 2021-02-18T14:02:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T14:03:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:04:44Z flip214: thanks 2021-02-18T14:04:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T14:06:17Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:10:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T14:12:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:12:52Z cloudy[m]1 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:13:20Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:13:34Z ldb: good evening 2021-02-18T14:14:19Z beach: Hello ldb. 2021-02-18T14:14:46Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T14:15:27Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:19:48Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:20:56Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T14:21:17Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-02-18T14:21:39Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:32:46Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:34:40Z ym joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:39:31Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:40:38Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:42:16Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T14:45:22Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:50:24Z perrier-jouet quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T14:52:07Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T14:52:14Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-18T14:53:04Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T14:53:14Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T14:53:36Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:53:59Z ilshad` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:55:26Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T14:55:50Z rpg: Anyone out there motivated to take over CL-JSON? I'd really like to see it get some of it's 6+ year old fixes applied, but I can't easily take on YA CL library. 2021-02-18T14:57:54Z Gnuxie[m]: all the JSON libraries are in a bit of a mess frankly 2021-02-18T14:58:54Z aeth: probably because people just configure Lisp programs in Lisp itself, cutting a lot of the demand for something like JSON 2021-02-18T14:58:59Z pfdietz: (checks if we use that)  We do. 2021-02-18T14:59:01Z aeth: unfortunately, interoperability with the rest of the world is still important 2021-02-18T14:59:11Z pfdietz: jsown is much faster, though. 2021-02-18T15:00:36Z cods joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:02:02Z pyc: hey #lisp! is there anyone here studying Practical Common Lisp or any of the other Lisp books? I would like to invite you to #lispx . Trying to form a study group to keep myself motivated and share learnings with. 2021-02-18T15:02:29Z jmercouris: pyc: why not post on cl-school? 2021-02-18T15:02:30Z mfiano: zulu did a good job with the new json library 2021-02-18T15:02:48Z pyc: jmercouris: does cl-school have book-based study groups? 2021-02-18T15:03:03Z jmercouris: no 2021-02-18T15:03:24Z pyc: what is the channel name. there is nobody at #cl-school 2021-02-18T15:03:41Z pyc: in the meantime anyone interested to form study group is welcome at #lispx 2021-02-18T15:03:58Z jmercouris: is :UNIX a Feature on Darwin systems? 2021-02-18T15:05:10Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:05:20Z Gnuxie[m]: jmercouris: it's #clschool and you should come there too :) 2021-02-18T15:05:25Z Cymew: pyc: The channel you are looking for is #clschool 2021-02-18T15:05:32Z jmercouris: Gnuxie[m]: why is that? 2021-02-18T15:05:45Z rpg: pfdietz: I wouldn't mind if our community would stop writing libraries from scratch over and over, and would give the old ones some love instead. 2021-02-18T15:06:11Z jmercouris: typically that involves more work, more politics and a healthy dose of NIH 2021-02-18T15:06:26Z jmercouris: I know I frequently rewrite things because I don't want to deal with contacting an old maintainer or diving into their codebase 2021-02-18T15:07:25Z rpg: Unfortunately, it leaves us with a zillion unmaintained half-broken libraries. 2021-02-18T15:08:09Z Xach: rpg: I think there are some good reasons and bad reasons why people strike out on their own 2021-02-18T15:08:38Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T15:08:46Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:08:46Z rpg: Xach: Sure, but it's hard to argue that NIH isn't a plague on the community as a whole. 2021-02-18T15:08:49Z Xach: rpg: a bad one is "i didn't know it already existed". similarly "i knew it existed but could not tell if it solved my problem" 2021-02-18T15:09:31Z Xach: I wouldn't argue that, I get to see new utility and test libraries pop up all the time. But there are obstacles that could be removed to help the situation somewhat. 2021-02-18T15:09:56Z jmercouris: it is a plague IN ALL communities 2021-02-18T15:10:10Z rpg: Stuff like JSON handling is critical for interoperation with the world of non-CL code, and the current Tower of Babel approach is ... not good. 2021-02-18T15:10:14Z jmercouris: the reason it may not seem so in other communities is because the relative size of libraries is different 2021-02-18T15:10:19Z mfiano: What about "I knew it existed, but since Lisp is so flexible it was wasier to write my own 20% solution than to unmap the projection of someone elses' mind onto my own" 2021-02-18T15:10:19Z Xach: Some reasons will always remain, like "I wanted something I made myself" 2021-02-18T15:10:26Z jmercouris: there are GIANT libraries in JS because there are tons of users in JS 2021-02-18T15:10:31Z pfdietz: I try to focus on working on existing libraries, rather than starting new ones.  Sometimes that means building new tools, though. 2021-02-18T15:10:31Z Xach: mfiano: that's a tricky one! 2021-02-18T15:10:51Z rpg: I was thinking I'd like to build something that would handle JSON schema, but ... seems like it would be building on sand. 2021-02-18T15:10:53Z Xach: if you're doing work in your free time and you want to make life easy for yourself, external pleading may not help 2021-02-18T15:10:56Z jmercouris: I try at least to focus on spinning out libraries out of Nyxt.. 2021-02-18T15:11:07Z mfiano: easier* 2021-02-18T15:11:59Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T15:12:02Z theothor` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T15:12:11Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:12:12Z pfdietz: Download stats on QL are very useful for focusing on focusing attention on most-used systems. 2021-02-18T15:12:14Z rpg: jmercouris: If you and I are both relying on CL-JSON, interested in forking it in a way that would be more accepting of patches? 2021-02-18T15:13:06Z jmercouris: I am relying on cl-json, yes 2021-02-18T15:13:18Z pfdietz: This is the repo?   https://github.com/hankhero/cl-json 2021-02-18T15:13:21Z jmercouris: I have not extended it any way though, for my needs I find it quite adequate 2021-02-18T15:13:45Z rpg: pfdietz: Yes. There are several patches that should be applied but aren't and won't be. 2021-02-18T15:13:49Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:13:55Z pfdietz: I see 10 pull requests there 2021-02-18T15:14:06Z rpg: I think the last commit was in 2014? 2021-02-18T15:14:14Z pfdietz: Yes 2021-02-18T15:14:56Z rpg: I'd be happy just to see a fork with multiple owners who would, as time permits, review and merge PRs. 2021-02-18T15:14:59Z jmercouris: I think this problem is more generally solved by the 'sharplispers' group 2021-02-18T15:15:06Z jmercouris: of which I, and many others are not welcome to participate in 2021-02-18T15:15:25Z rpg: I haven't followed that bit of CL sociology 2021-02-18T15:15:34Z pfdietz: Time to create sharperlispers! 2021-02-18T15:15:37Z jmercouris: I am willing to create an organization to maintain libraries in a community fashion 2021-02-18T15:15:57Z jmercouris: we have adopted some libraries in the development of Nyxt, but we have not created an organization for it... 2021-02-18T15:16:03Z jmercouris: mostly just Pierre putting them on his account 2021-02-18T15:16:18Z jmercouris: and getting write permissions as well, like cl-webkit, quri... etc 2021-02-18T15:16:23Z rpg: Could be done on GitHub or cl.net 2021-02-18T15:17:06Z jmercouris: pfdietz: would you participate? 2021-02-18T15:17:11Z rpg: I'd sign up. I just don't want to start up a personal fork of libraries like cl-json, which would just move the same problem from point A to point B 2021-02-18T15:17:20Z aeth: The problem with the JSON libraries is that they're just completely fundamentally flawed. Many authors, for instance, seem to think that treating CL:NIL as equivalent to JSON's "null" instead of as JSON's "false" is a reasonable default, which, I mean... really? Really? NIL is false. CL doesn't have a true null. 2021-02-18T15:17:24Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T15:17:26Z rpg: "pointylispers"? 2021-02-18T15:17:31Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:17:47Z jmercouris: or the "lisp user group" 2021-02-18T15:17:55Z aeth: The solution definitely is to NIH a proper JSON library and then, if possible, base the old libraries on the new one, to preserve the old (flawed) APIs. Like e.g. what happened with PNGs 2021-02-18T15:17:58Z pfdietz: I am inclined to participate, but I find myself short on time these days for all my side projects.   So "maybe"? 2021-02-18T15:18:00Z Gnuxie[m]: aeth: agreed 2021-02-18T15:18:15Z jmercouris: Gnuxie[m]: you haven't answered my question, why do you think I should join clnoobs? 2021-02-18T15:18:21Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:18:29Z rpg: aeth: It isn't a solvable problem (this is why I think it would be useful to have JSON schema support) -- there's no way to tell, absent contextual information, if NIL == [] or NIL == False 2021-02-18T15:19:26Z aeth: rpg: The least surprising default would be to CONS any list to avoid the NIL issue. Otherwise you still have the ambiguity between NIL as [] or NIL as {} 2021-02-18T15:19:40Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:19:56Z rpg: aeth: That's a *much* bigger lift. I wouldn't sign up to do that, but I would sign up to join an organization that would take on some orphaned libraries, and take time as available to merge PRs, etc. 2021-02-18T15:19:59Z jackdaniel: aeth: some libraries provide flags to customize that 2021-02-18T15:20:05Z aeth: jackdaniel: Defaults matter. 2021-02-18T15:20:05Z jackdaniel: I think that yason does that at least 2021-02-18T15:20:07Z mfiano: jzon claims to have unambiguous null, [], and false 2021-02-18T15:20:09Z Cymew: Who the heck is "sharplispers"? 2021-02-18T15:20:51Z aeth: Imo, the reason nobody's using Linux on the desktop is because while Linux is great and you don't have to touch it in 10+ years after you set it up, it does require non-trivial configuration because the defaults suck. 2021-02-18T15:20:54Z Bike: https://github.com/sharplispers/ 2021-02-18T15:20:54Z rpg: aeth: I suppose. I'm more interested in adding JSON Schema support in order to end run the ontological questions like "What is NIL"? 2021-02-18T15:20:55Z pfdietz: My contributions these days tend to be "here's a widely used library with inadequate tests.  Let's add some."  I sometimes fix the bugs found. 2021-02-18T15:21:07Z aeth: Defaults are the most important thing I think of when designing software. 2021-02-18T15:21:18Z jmercouris: aeth: what does that have to do with anything? 2021-02-18T15:21:23Z jmercouris: oh I see 2021-02-18T15:21:43Z aeth: jmercouris: My point is that most people don't change the default, so if the JSON libraries all have awful defaults, it doesn't matter that some of them can be configured properly. 99% of uses won't be proper. 2021-02-18T15:21:46Z rpg: aeth: I get it, but I think we are back in the "the better is the enemy of the good" territory, writing YA JSON Library. 2021-02-18T15:22:05Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T15:22:08Z pfdietz: Those yaks won't shave themselves, son. 2021-02-18T15:22:26Z Cymew: Bike: Thanks 2021-02-18T15:22:28Z jmercouris: maybe we can make an organization, where by default, if a library is not updated in 1 year, it gets put into community maintenance 2021-02-18T15:22:39Z rpg: If you don't work at the low level, the defaults are less of a pain point. My opinion is that there is no perfect match from JSON to CL, and searching for one is like looking for El Dorado. 2021-02-18T15:22:45Z jmercouris: and then everyone can approve patches, if let's say 5 people sign off 2021-02-18T15:23:00Z rpg: I'm more interested in shaving the yak that is CL-JSON (and a bunch of other libraries). 2021-02-18T15:23:34Z aeth: jmercouris: A year really isn't a long time in the CL world. 2021-02-18T15:23:54Z rpg: I can't afford to rewrite everything I have that uses JSON in the hopes that something better is out there. I'd rather build some superstructure. YMMV.\ 2021-02-18T15:23:55Z jmercouris: aeth: we can argue about the specifics later, I am interested in the concept 2021-02-18T15:24:01Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:24:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T15:24:35Z rpg: jmercouris: Agreed -- I'd like to set up the Home for Wayward Libraries, rather than discuss generating a new one. 2021-02-18T15:24:44Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:24:49Z _death: rpg: you don't need contextual information to decide to represent Lisp NIL as JSON [] (or better, {}.. #() could be []) and Lisp :FALSE as JSON false.. 2021-02-18T15:25:02Z aeth: rpg: I think you kind of have to design it with schema in mind at the start. 2021-02-18T15:25:21Z jmercouris: something something cat herding 2021-02-18T15:25:37Z rpg: Let's fork the discussion of how to properly bridge JSON with CL to a separate process, and get back to how to do a little carpentry on libraries that need some maintenance. 2021-02-18T15:25:42Z mfiano: https://github.com/Zulu-Inuoe/jzon#unambiguous-values 2021-02-18T15:25:54Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:25:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T15:26:12Z rpg: Now I see why Slack has threads.... 2021-02-18T15:26:27Z aeth: "Note that here we have nil representing false, null, and []. This is done by examining the :type of each slot. If no type is provided, nil shall serialize as null." 2021-02-18T15:26:32Z aeth: God damn it. 2021-02-18T15:26:36Z aeth: NIL IS NOT NULL. 2021-02-18T15:26:47Z aeth: Why does every JSON library author not understand this? 2021-02-18T15:26:55Z _death: com.gigamonkeys.json does understand that.. 2021-02-18T15:26:55Z _death: ' 2021-02-18T15:26:58Z jackdaniel: threads in slack won't filter noise, quite the contrary 2021-02-18T15:27:07Z jackdaniel: it is not a tooling problem 2021-02-18T15:27:08Z _death: it uses :null for null 2021-02-18T15:27:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:27:28Z rpg: I have to go walk dogs, I'm afraid. pfdietz jmercouris -- I'll check back in later, and am happy to do a little work to help set up the CL Library Orphanage. 2021-02-18T15:27:31Z aeth: _death: That's the correct way to do it. 2021-02-18T15:27:48Z jackdaniel: rpg: what's wrong with sharplispers for that purpose? 2021-02-18T15:27:51Z _death: aeth: that's why I've been using it for many years 2021-02-18T15:27:53Z aeth: _death: It doesn't surprise me that someone who wrote the book on CL understands CL 2021-02-18T15:27:59Z jmercouris: well, they aren't a welcoming community 2021-02-18T15:28:04Z jackdaniel: how so? 2021-02-18T15:28:12Z jmercouris: not anyone can join and participtae 2021-02-18T15:28:18Z jmercouris: s/participtae/participate 2021-02-18T15:28:47Z jackdaniel: well, that is a sound strategy, do you want to let in dilletants to make orphaned libraries worse? 2021-02-18T15:28:59Z jmercouris: why is it one or the other? 2021-02-18T15:28:59Z rpg: pfdietz, jmercouris If one were to do this, I'd favor having a loose confederation.... 2021-02-18T15:29:02Z jackdaniel: I mean, you don't let anyone from the street to paint your house 2021-02-18T15:29:17Z jmercouris: the governance of the entity is not suitable for a community 2021-02-18T15:29:20Z jmercouris: it is led by a single dictator 2021-02-18T15:29:41Z jmercouris: which, has led, to many other problems before 2021-02-18T15:29:41Z jackdaniel: well, good luck, but calling sharplispers not welcoming sounds like some personal grudge ;-) 2021-02-18T15:30:00Z jmercouris: it is by definition, even *your* definition, not welcoming 2021-02-18T15:30:04Z rpg: I'd be happy to do this under the umbrella of sharplispers, but I have no idea how to join... 2021-02-18T15:30:11Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T15:30:15Z jmercouris: first you must appease the dictator... 2021-02-18T15:30:19Z rpg: or how it works. 2021-02-18T15:30:20Z aeth: And in case anyone pokes me in like 10 hours to challenge what I said... You can treat NIL as null-as-the-default-value within CL, but when you're serializing to/from JSON you're interoperating with languages who have null-as-the-crappy-thing-that-breaks-the-type-system or maybe null-as-the-element-in-the-three-value-logic-system. So it's best to think of NIL as just false that happens to be the default value for a lot of things (unless wor 2021-02-18T15:30:32Z jackdaniel: rpg: just ask Xach to add you to the group 2021-02-18T15:30:33Z aeth: (unless working with lists) 2021-02-18T15:30:38Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T15:30:47Z jmercouris: IFF Xach approves you, you have the privilege of joining the group 2021-02-18T15:30:55Z jmercouris: I don't know about you, but that doesn't sit right with me 2021-02-18T15:31:22Z jmercouris: CL as a principle, and as a design is not based on the BDFL, so why should our libraries be distributed and maintained this way? 2021-02-18T15:31:30Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:31:30Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T15:31:37Z jmercouris: of course, there are other shows in town, but those don't get much community support 2021-02-18T15:31:38Z rpg: jackdaniel: OK, will do. What's the procedure for getting a library adopted by sharplispers? And what's the protocol for getting things merged? 2021-02-18T15:31:53Z jmercouris: rpg: you'll find that on their non-existent community information page 2021-02-18T15:31:54Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:31:55Z _death: 100% working roundtrip is a basic requirement of a json encoding/decoding library.. that some libraries that lack this are still being used is strange 2021-02-18T15:32:32Z jmercouris: For example, why can we not get packages from pjb on the official Ql Dist? Because the BDFL does not desire it, and does not like pjb 2021-02-18T15:32:48Z mfiano: That's not true 2021-02-18T15:32:57Z rpg: jmercouris: It's not an irrational issue about pjb. But that's a separate discussion. 2021-02-18T15:32:59Z jmercouris: really? are you sure about that? 2021-02-18T15:33:05Z mfiano: pjb's stuff was on Quicklisp until it failed to build and he did not want to update it 2021-02-18T15:33:08Z jackdaniel: rpg: technically speaking anyone could spawn a repository in sharplispers, but I don't think I have an access right to add users 2021-02-18T15:33:08Z _death: (even if you can make them do that after you realize the crappy defaults) 2021-02-18T15:33:20Z jackdaniel: so I'd just talk with Xach 2021-02-18T15:33:28Z jmercouris: mfiano: I've heard differently 2021-02-18T15:33:55Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2021-02-18T15:34:18Z jmercouris: what is the truth, I dont' know, may never know, I do know that Xach is a single point of failure/control 2021-02-18T15:34:24Z jackdaniel: rpg: or in a matter of fact, anyone listed as owner here: https://github.com/orgs/sharplispers/people 2021-02-18T15:34:54Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: people outside the organization cannot view permissions 2021-02-18T15:35:10Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: oh 2021-02-18T15:35:31Z rpg: TTYL -- the dogs aren't going to walk themselves. 2021-02-18T15:35:37Z jackdaniel: rpg: there are also luis and slyrus :) see you 2021-02-18T15:35:47Z rpg: And, heck, it's ABOVE ZERO -- gotta take advantage of that. 2021-02-18T15:35:53Z rpg is now known as rpg_away 2021-02-18T15:36:09Z aeth: _death: It's not just 100% roundtrip as the default behavior, but also interop with the other major programming languages. That's really where nil-as-null instead of nil-as-false tends to fail. 2021-02-18T15:36:17Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T15:36:33Z aeth: The main reason why you'd want to use JSON is to import data from another language... 2021-02-18T15:36:47Z aeth: (Or export) 2021-02-18T15:37:26Z aeth: Those are the two main criteria. 2021-02-18T15:37:31Z jmercouris: I'm not sure why JSON superseded XML 2021-02-18T15:37:32Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-18T15:37:37Z jmercouris: I really don't see the benefit 2021-02-18T15:37:49Z aeth: jmercouris: It's smaller when sent over the internet. 2021-02-18T15:38:00Z aeth: S-expressions give you everything XML does while being even more concise, of course. 2021-02-18T15:38:14Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:38:20Z jmercouris: I don't see a difference between XML and SEXP 2021-02-18T15:38:28Z jmercouris: I see them as different flavors of the same idea 2021-02-18T15:38:31Z _death: right, a library that would reverse each string would also be out.. 2021-02-18T15:38:36Z Cymew: I think the reason is spelled "javascript". 2021-02-18T15:38:48Z jmercouris: yeah, that's probably it 2021-02-18T15:40:41Z aeth: jmercouris: The main difference between XML and s-expressions is that XML lets you express the same thing in two ways. 43 vs 42 43 2021-02-18T15:41:22Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:41:36Z aeth: jmercouris: Creating a way to express the first thing in s-expressions either gives you something like (foo :bar 42 43) or (foo (:bar 42) 43) and neither are that ideal because in the first case, you have to nontrivially parse it to see if you're inside a leading plist while in the second, most tags will have () or nil as their first item 2021-02-18T15:42:27Z aeth: Otherwise, yeah, s-expression is just a more network friendly form of XML because it reduces a ton of duplication (but if you compress it, that duplication is gone) 2021-02-18T15:42:28Z jmercouris: aeth: I never thought about that, interesting 2021-02-18T15:42:57Z jmercouris: I often think XML should have never allowed 2021-02-18T15:43:01Z aeth: yeah 2021-02-18T15:43:03Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T15:43:04Z jmercouris: this is a huge sin in HTML as wel in my opinion 2021-02-18T15:43:14Z jmercouris: then again, HTML is supposed to just be XML anyways 2021-02-18T15:43:17Z jmercouris: but it isn't, of course 2021-02-18T15:43:42Z aeth: Well, the sin of HTML is different. The sin of HTML is that it is permissive of errors because Netscape and IE were competing to support the most garbage websites out there. 2021-02-18T15:43:53Z jmercouris: that's not a sin of the language 2021-02-18T15:44:04Z jmercouris: that is a sin of the implementations, and the greater community of developers 2021-02-18T15:44:09Z aeth: Well, they encoded it into the language semantics eventually. 2021-02-18T15:44:10Z jackdaniel: I think that this discussion ended in something that belongs to #lispcafe ,) 2021-02-18T15:44:13Z aeth: Stuff like "quirks mode" 2021-02-18T15:44:19Z jmercouris: don't even get me started 2021-02-18T15:45:43Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:46:38Z aeth: It's not as off-topic as it seems because I'm probably just going to use a subset of HTML in s-expression form as the GUI for my game engine. 2021-02-18T15:46:58Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:47:15Z jmercouris: oh wow, good luck 2021-02-18T15:47:26Z aeth: hence the word "subset" :-) 2021-02-18T15:47:30Z jmercouris: you know, that's actually not too far off from what we do 2021-02-18T15:47:38Z jmercouris: I've been working on a UI interface library 2021-02-18T15:47:48Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:47:49Z jmercouris: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt/tree/master/libraries/user-interface 2021-02-18T15:47:54Z jmercouris: it's nothing crazy, but it demonstrates a pattern 2021-02-18T15:48:28Z jmercouris: just 82 lines of code, specifies a listener/watcher model for updating elements on screen 2021-02-18T15:50:26Z pfdietz: Any data can become Big Data by encoding it in XML! 2021-02-18T15:50:30Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T15:51:10Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:51:19Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T15:51:41Z _death: I've been wondering why format-graph-from-root in presentation method for present won't redraw when incremental-redisplay is nil (some check for output record ancestorship..) .. for now I'm using incremental-redisplay 2021-02-18T15:51:56Z jackdaniel: http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/s-exp_vs_XML is an interesting read 2021-02-18T15:51:57Z aeth: technically speaking, all of these encodings are useless because ASCII/Unicode have group separator / record separator / unit separator, so you can juse use a three-tier-hierarchical, unprintable CSV-derived format for data. (but this line was 100% #lispcafe material) 2021-02-18T15:53:54Z aeth: s/juse use/just use/ 2021-02-18T15:54:56Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T15:57:09Z sabrac joined #lisp 2021-02-18T15:59:11Z sabrac: Hello everyone 2021-02-18T16:00:44Z jmercouris: hello sabrac 2021-02-18T16:05:11Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T16:09:37Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T16:10:45Z recalloc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T16:11:01Z jmercouris: I don't see get-hosts-by-name within the CLHS 2021-02-18T16:11:12Z jmercouris: yet, when I m-. on it, it takes me to a SBCL.lisp file 2021-02-18T16:11:24Z jmercouris: oh you know what, silly me, this is a backend specific file, never mind 2021-02-18T16:12:04Z jmercouris: I see there are a ton of backends... 2021-02-18T16:14:20Z jmercouris: kind of makes me want to write a 'trivial-get-hosts-by-name' 2021-02-18T16:17:31Z ilshad` left #lisp 2021-02-18T16:17:55Z jmercouris: is there no way to portably write: sb-bsd-sockets:get-host-by-name? 2021-02-18T16:19:00Z frodef: Define "portably"? 2021-02-18T16:19:07Z jmercouris: lol 2021-02-18T16:19:11Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-18T16:20:30Z maier joined #lisp 2021-02-18T16:20:53Z Bike: the portability library is usocket, i think 2021-02-18T16:21:17Z jmercouris: yeah, it IS the portability library, but it doesn't appear to have a pure CL implementation of get-hosts-by-name 2021-02-18T16:21:30Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T16:21:31Z jmercouris: I've looked through a few back-ends and I only see implementation specific code 2021-02-18T16:21:43Z jackdaniel: guess why there needs to be a portability layer? 2021-02-18T16:21:45Z Bike: well, yeah, it's a portability library? 2021-02-18T16:21:53Z Bike: it's just a way to use implementation interfaces. 2021-02-18T16:22:07Z jmercouris: yes, but what about when those interfaces don't exist in a library! 2021-02-18T16:22:14Z jmercouris: for example, you want to use it in clasp 2021-02-18T16:22:21Z jmercouris: you must now implement some features in clasp that usocket can then utilize 2021-02-18T16:22:25Z jmercouris: surely it can be done in pure CL 2021-02-18T16:22:38Z jackdaniel: OK, when you do that let us know 2021-02-18T16:22:47Z jmercouris: don't be so snarky 2021-02-18T16:23:16Z Bike: well, for one, clasp actually does have sb-bsd-sockets. i don't know if usocket knows that though 2021-02-18T16:23:17Z jackdaniel: don't be so ignorant 2021-02-18T16:23:32Z jmercouris: oh, you really got me there! 2021-02-18T16:23:42Z Bike: for two, those implementation systems can't really be written in CL, which is why implementations provide them as extensions 2021-02-18T16:23:51Z Bike: they rely on calling into the operating system and suchlike 2021-02-18T16:23:59Z jmercouris: I'm of the opinion that anything can be written in CL 2021-02-18T16:24:09Z jackdaniel: I think that kpoeck added clasp to usocket 2021-02-18T16:24:14Z jmercouris: can you give an example of something that would be impossible? 2021-02-18T16:24:19Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T16:24:20Z Bike: CL does not have functions for calling into the operating system. ergo, in "pure CL" you cannot call into the operating system 2021-02-18T16:24:21Z jackdaniel: oh, no, it was drmeister 2021-02-18T16:24:39Z jmercouris: Bike: yeah, but if you use some CFFI, it should be possible, no? 2021-02-18T16:24:44Z Bike: CFFI is not part of CL 2021-02-18T16:24:50Z jmercouris: OK, but it is portable? 2021-02-18T16:24:54Z Bike: sure 2021-02-18T16:25:07Z jmercouris: Then you can use it for this purpose 2021-02-18T16:25:14Z jackdaniel: (in the same sense usocket is portable) 2021-02-18T16:25:28Z Bike: yeah, that's the issue. 2021-02-18T16:25:38Z jmercouris: I can justify support for CFFI in this way much more than usocket 2021-02-18T16:26:11Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T16:27:47Z _death: if an implementation supported ffi but not sockets, and cffi supported that implementation, usocket could conceivably have a cffi backend, but there's no need 2021-02-18T16:28:04Z jmercouris: that is what I am suggesting 2021-02-18T16:29:02Z _death: you'd also need to implement this for each platform with different socket interfaces 2021-02-18T16:29:31Z _death: implementations already do that and provide a Lisp interface.. so usocket uses that 2021-02-18T16:29:35Z Bike: yeah, if you look at the actual sb-bsd-sockets you can see lots of papering over win32 and darwin and such 2021-02-18T16:29:57Z Bike: i mean, i guess you could take it on yourself to duplicate all that work in terms of cffi instead of implementation FFIs 2021-02-18T16:30:01Z Bike: maybe? 2021-02-18T16:30:36Z jmercouris: no one else sees the value in this approach 2021-02-18T16:30:37Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T16:30:42Z jmercouris: so my work would be meaningless 2021-02-18T16:31:33Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T16:32:00Z _death: there is already a library that does something like that 2021-02-18T16:32:16Z Josh_2: ello 2021-02-18T16:32:19Z _death: it's called fsocket 2021-02-18T16:33:01Z jmercouris: I like it 2021-02-18T16:36:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T16:37:33Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T16:39:16Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T16:39:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T16:40:45Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-18T16:43:02Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T16:43:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T16:45:23Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T16:47:56Z maier quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-18T16:51:15Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T16:51:22Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-02-18T16:51:54Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T16:56:16Z dyelar joined #lisp 2021-02-18T17:01:16Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-18T17:04:19Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-18T17:04:28Z phantomics quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2021-02-18T17:05:28Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T17:07:52Z _death: well, nowadays it could even be less portable.. usocket works on mezzano ;) 2021-02-18T17:09:48Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T17:09:54Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-02-18T17:10:08Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T17:12:27Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-18T17:17:00Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-18T17:19:06Z jasom: basic-binary-ipc works with TCP on windows, linux, and BSD using the CFFI approach 2021-02-18T17:19:41Z _death: iolib uses the ffi approach as well 2021-02-18T17:19:54Z jasom: doesn't iolib rely on libfixposix though? 2021-02-18T17:20:13Z _death: yeah.. and also usocket seems to have an iolib backend 2021-02-18T17:21:21Z jasom: basic-binary-ipc has no non-lisp non-os provided dependencies but does not support dgram sockets 2021-02-18T17:23:51Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T17:26:22Z jmercouris: iolib relies on libfixposix yes 2021-02-18T17:28:18Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-18T17:37:34Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T17:37:53Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-18T17:39:36Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T17:43:09Z jmercouris: (setf scn (cl-ppcre:create-scanner "\d{1,3}\.\d{1,3}\.\d{1,3}\.\d{1,3}")) 2021-02-18T17:43:16Z jmercouris: (cl-ppcre:scan scn "10.68.1.1") -> nil 2021-02-18T17:43:18Z jmercouris: what am I missing here? 2021-02-18T17:43:22Z jmercouris: why is that not returning t? 2021-02-18T17:44:21Z Bike: isn't it \\d etc? 2021-02-18T17:44:43Z jmercouris: ah, yes 2021-02-18T17:44:51Z jmercouris: you are right, thanks Bike 2021-02-18T17:45:08Z Bike: np 2021-02-18T17:45:19Z flip214: jmercouris: CL-INTERPOL has a reader that allows you to use #?rx(\d{1,3}. ) without double \\ 2021-02-18T17:45:41Z jmercouris: I see 2021-02-18T17:59:13Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Any takers? :) 2021-02-18T18:33:04Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T18:33:23Z Bike: what is it? 2021-02-18T18:33:29Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/631e1a1fa07609b0d38f64a9f3897973 2021-02-18T18:35:29Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-18T18:36:34Z Bike: i don't understand what you're going for here. x and y don't change between iterations, so fx and fy don't change, but you recompute them every time anyway? 2021-02-18T18:36:39Z mfiano: Added a comment for a monofractal (one that doesn't multiply each octave with the previous). 2021-02-18T18:36:57Z mfiano: The multifractal I can't get to do all the sampling in the iteration body 2021-02-18T18:37:16Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T18:38:11Z mfiano: Ah yeah that might be a mistake. 2021-02-18T18:39:39Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-02-18T18:39:46Z dyelar joined #lisp 2021-02-18T18:41:08Z mfiano: Hmm, some other implementations seem to do the same thing... 2021-02-18T18:41:24Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-18T18:41:38Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-18T18:41:41Z mfiano: Wonder if there's something I'm missing. Here's a Rust (gasp) version: https://github.com/Razaekel/noise-rs/blob/develop/src/noise_fns/generators/fractals/basicmulti.rs#L123-L151 2021-02-18T18:42:08Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T18:42:55Z Bike: i don't see anything analogous? if point is the equivalen to x and y, it's reduced on each iteration 2021-02-18T18:44:08Z mfiano: the point outside their loop is my x/y. the point inside is my fx/fy 2021-02-18T18:44:27Z Bike: yes 2021-02-18T18:44:34Z Bike: and each iteration the new point is computed from the old one 2021-02-18T18:44:35Z mfiano: At least that was the intention. I was looking at a few implementations, not sure I understand this Rust one 2021-02-18T18:44:39Z Bike: whereas yours is computed from the outside point 2021-02-18T18:45:47Z mfiano: so :for fx = (* x lacunarity) :then (* fx lacunarity) is what I need for that I believe 2021-02-18T18:47:33Z mfiano: that still leaves trying to do the initial point and octave 0 sampling inside the iteration. I see the Rust version is not either, but they don't have a powerful DSL :) 2021-02-18T18:47:49Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-02-18T18:48:25Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T18:51:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-18T18:51:51Z Bike: i think the difficulty is that the first "signal" is not scaled like the later ones are. 2021-02-18T18:52:44Z KUrare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T18:53:14Z mfiano: I thought this would be close, but nope: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/e480228fed81a59d6e07c8f8e792702c 2021-02-18T18:54:06Z Guest48983 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T18:55:04Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T18:55:24Z Bike: that doesn't actually read any sources beyond the 0th one, so you definitely don't want that 2021-02-18T18:55:55Z mfiano: Oh right... 2021-02-18T18:56:54Z alanz_: I want to play with the dropbox API. Is this the most up to date library for it? https://github.com/jsmpereira/cl-dropbox 2021-02-18T18:59:18Z alanz_: hmm, maybe this one: https://github.com/deadtrickster/cl-dropbox. Only seven years old, not nine 2021-02-18T18:59:21Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T18:59:32Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-18T18:59:35Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-18T18:59:39Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-18T19:00:02Z Steeve joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:01:45Z alanz_: I will try the emacs lisp one as a model 2021-02-18T19:01:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T19:02:36Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:02:36Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-18T19:02:41Z fosred quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-18T19:06:26Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:06:33Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-18T19:06:37Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-18T19:07:01Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:10:43Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2021-02-18T19:11:03Z Steeve joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:11:10Z seabass[m]2 left #lisp 2021-02-18T19:11:18Z Steeve quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-18T19:11:45Z Steeve joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:14:15Z Guest48983 is now known as a138 2021-02-18T19:15:07Z dunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T19:15:07Z banjiewen__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T19:15:07Z jerme_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T19:15:07Z sz0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T19:15:07Z buoy49 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T19:15:07Z kilimanjaro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T19:15:07Z alanz_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T19:16:20Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T19:17:57Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T19:18:48Z dnm joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:20:32Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:20:34Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T19:20:45Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T19:30:29Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:32:49Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:33:26Z frgo quit 2021-02-18T19:33:49Z mason joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:34:49Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:34:56Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:39:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T19:39:50Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:41:06Z markasoftware: why is compute-applicable-methods not in c2mop 2021-02-18T19:41:23Z Xach: markasoftware: it is in CL 2021-02-18T19:41:24Z Bike: because it's a standard function 2021-02-18T19:44:48Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T19:45:50Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-18T19:47:33Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:48:08Z dunk joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:48:40Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-18T19:49:29Z alanz_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:49:39Z banjiewen__ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:50:04Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:51:38Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T19:53:13Z buoy49 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:53:26Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T19:55:34Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:56:16Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:57:17Z jerme_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:58:03Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-18T19:59:39Z scoofy is now known as scoofy__ 2021-02-18T20:00:02Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T20:00:02Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-18T20:00:41Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T20:00:49Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-18T20:02:38Z scoofy joined #lisp 2021-02-18T20:02:40Z scoofy__ left #lisp 2021-02-18T20:06:23Z phoe: I frequently get bitten by this thing 2021-02-18T20:06:37Z phoe: "why is that thing not in mop?" and only then I go "oh wait it's in CL" 2021-02-18T20:08:43Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-18T20:10:46Z Nilby: I don't use slime much, but assume the color after pressing c-a-m should be indicative? 2021-02-18T20:13:19Z Steeve quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T20:15:28Z Josh_2: do you use sly? 2021-02-18T20:16:24Z Nilby: no, i use my own weird bespoke repl-like-thing 2021-02-18T20:16:29Z Josh_2: huh 2021-02-18T20:18:45Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T20:18:46Z markasoftware: i don't see it in clhs though 2021-02-18T20:19:07Z Bike: clhs compute-applicable-methods 2021-02-18T20:19:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comput.htm 2021-02-18T20:19:28Z markasoftware: woah 2021-02-18T20:20:12Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T20:23:01Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-18T20:27:00Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T20:29:16Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T20:31:21Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-02-18T20:42:32Z mfiano quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-02-18T20:42:46Z mfiano joined #lisp 2021-02-18T20:46:55Z White_Flame: if a macro generates a macrolet body inside its output, how does one expand those again? 2021-02-18T20:47:13Z White_Flame: in slime for viewing/debugging 2021-02-18T20:50:48Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T20:50:49Z pankajsg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T20:51:29Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-18T20:51:45Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T20:52:50Z mfiano: Sounds like your macro should be broken up into functions. You're not going to be able to interactively macrostep inside a backquoted form. 2021-02-18T20:56:20Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T20:57:05Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:00:32Z hiroaki quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2021-02-18T21:00:50Z a138 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T21:02:50Z fe[nl]ix: jasom, _death, jmercouris: anyone interested in me publishing SBCL Linux binaries with libfixposix (and maybe openssl) statically linked ? 2021-02-18T21:03:47Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T21:05:36Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:05:49Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:05:53Z dunk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T21:05:53Z jerme_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T21:05:54Z alanz_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T21:05:54Z banjiewen__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T21:05:54Z buoy49 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T21:05:54Z kilimanjaro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T21:05:54Z sz0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T21:06:14Z White_Flame: mfiano: can't really break out macrolets like that, and it's not too huge, just a few dozens of lines total 2021-02-18T21:06:28Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-18T21:06:48Z mfiano: White_Flame: Does SLIME have interop with macrostep-mode like Sly does? If so then just invoke that on the top-level macro call, press to jump to the next expandable form until you reach your macrolet call, and press "e" to expand that. (Of course keybindings are probably different; don't remember if I configured sly-macrostep myself or not) 2021-02-18T21:08:44Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:08:53Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:09:08Z White_Flame: nah, e just says it's not an editable buffer, and anoter C-c Enter doesn't do anything to the macrolet inner usages 2021-02-18T21:10:13Z White_Flame: nor on the macrolet form itself 2021-02-18T21:10:47Z mfiano: White_Flame: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/926d883e85789d53acc6dc8b0cc055e7 2021-02-18T21:11:43Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T21:12:08Z dunk joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:12:09Z mfiano: Maybe Sly's macrostep-mode integration works differently. shrug 2021-02-18T21:12:26Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:12:54Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:13:51Z alanz_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:14:03Z banjiewen__ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:16:39Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-18T21:17:21Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T21:17:49Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:18:09Z andrea_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:18:15Z andrea_ left #lisp 2021-02-18T21:19:13Z buoy49 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:23:19Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:23:54Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:25:45Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-18T21:26:19Z jerme_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:27:03Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-18T21:32:16Z flazh quit (Quit: flazh) 2021-02-18T21:32:27Z flazh joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:32:28Z lavaflow quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-02-18T21:34:08Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T21:35:51Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:37:50Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T21:39:23Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:41:22Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T21:42:38Z elflng_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:43:00Z elflng_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-18T21:43:05Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T21:43:25Z elflng joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:46:23Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:48:38Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:48:38Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-18T21:50:48Z a138 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:55:56Z Josh_2: does someone have a nice metaphor for explaining #. to a python user? 2021-02-18T21:56:39Z jackdaniel: it is the shell command executed before python in # ./shell-command && python foo.py 2021-02-18T21:56:50Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:59:10Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T21:59:19Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T21:59:31Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-18T21:59:40Z villanella1 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T22:00:01Z Josh_2: anyone used #= before? 2021-02-18T22:00:41Z jackdaniel: sure, i.e (if (test) #1=(very-long-bla-bla) (with-serious-context () #1#)) 2021-02-18T22:01:15Z Josh_2: you have done that in real code? 2021-02-18T22:01:34Z jackdaniel: sure, not very proud of that though 2021-02-18T22:01:37Z jasom: I've only used it at the REPL (and code-golfing) 2021-02-18T22:01:45Z Josh_2: jackdaniel: can I see? 2021-02-18T22:01:45Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T22:01:59Z jackdaniel: sure, navigate to mcclim implementation of draw-pattern 2021-02-18T22:02:02Z jackdaniel: I think that it was there 2021-02-18T22:03:40Z Josh_2: okay 2021-02-18T22:06:24Z Josh_2: Okay I see 2021-02-18T22:09:05Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-18T22:10:15Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T22:16:51Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T22:21:32Z Josh_2: Well my buddy was impressed by #. 2021-02-18T22:22:22Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-18T22:25:04Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T22:27:36Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T22:27:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T22:28:17Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T22:28:24Z jmercouris: fe[nl]ix: I would be interested, yes 2021-02-18T22:37:53Z landakram joined #lisp 2021-02-18T22:43:18Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-02-18T22:43:44Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T22:49:03Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-18T22:49:14Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-18T22:49:45Z drl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T22:50:40Z drl quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-18T22:53:06Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-18T22:53:47Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-18T22:53:49Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-18T22:59:17Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-18T22:59:17Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T23:00:05Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:05:29Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-18T23:06:00Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:08:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T23:09:48Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-18T23:10:01Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:11:17Z jasom: quick poll. I'm about to publish my YAML parser. cl-yaml parses "[[],false,null]" to (nil nil nil). I prefer it to parse to #(#() nil :null). My parser is configurable to do it both ways, but which should I default to? 2021-02-18T23:11:20Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-18T23:12:40Z jasom: Reason for my preference: I want to know which of the 3 values was in the actual YAML, so I'm only allowed to parse one value to nil. #() is an empty sequence already and I'm more likely to want to do (if boolean ...) than (if maybe-null ...) so null has to lose out and become a keyword. 2021-02-18T23:12:56Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:13:31Z jasom: I will provide a convenience function for parsing like cl-yaml if I don't default to the cl-yaml way 2021-02-18T23:14:09Z hiroaki1 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:14:32Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T23:14:33Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:15:15Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:20:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T23:20:13Z hiroaki1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-18T23:20:17Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:20:34Z hiroaki1 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:21:29Z phoe: I'd prefer the latter 2021-02-18T23:21:39Z phoe: mostly because this avoids typing issues 2021-02-18T23:23:00Z jasom: I don't need to be convinced the latter is better in a vaccum, I need to be convinced that it's enough better for the default to be incompatible with existing libraries 2021-02-18T23:24:20Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-18T23:26:07Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:27:04Z |3b|: can cffi callbacks do va_list stuff? 2021-02-18T23:28:34Z jasom: |3b|: if the documentation is correct then there is no way to sepcify variable arguments in defcallback 2021-02-18T23:28:35Z Bike: docs say defcallback can only involve fixed parameters 2021-02-18T23:28:53Z |3b|: ah, missed that :/ 2021-02-18T23:28:58Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T23:29:12Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:29:48Z Bike: the va_list operators are macros and seem to usually involve some weird complicated shuffling, so lisp implementations might not wanna bother 2021-02-18T23:30:22Z jasom: It's actually fairly easy to implement for 1 ABI, but multiply that by how many ABIs are out there... 2021-02-18T23:30:33Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-18T23:30:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T23:30:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:31:21Z jasom: usually the first N values are passed identically to a function of N arguements, and then the rest are done with fancy stack tricks. 2021-02-18T23:32:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T23:32:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:34:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T23:34:45Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-18T23:34:45Z Nilby: many C APIs that have variable arguments, also have a version where it passes the va_list, e.g. vprintf, which I assume you could, perhaps unportably, use in a callback 2021-02-18T23:34:52Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:35:11Z |3b|: i need to make a callback that accepts variable args 2021-02-18T23:36:31Z jasom: |3b|: step 1: punch the API designer for invoking a callback with variable args :P 2021-02-18T23:36:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-18T23:36:58Z |3b| points at libinput logging 2021-02-18T23:37:17Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-18T23:37:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:39:31Z jasom: logging is I suppose somewhat defensible since it's basically replacing printf 2021-02-18T23:40:16Z |3b|: looks like libffi doesn't handle it either, so no logging for me :/ 2021-02-18T23:40:23Z jasom: |3b|: you can log to sprintf 2021-02-18T23:40:42Z jasom: and then pull out the string 2021-02-18T23:40:45Z |3b|: what do you mean? 2021-02-18T23:41:05Z jasom: darn, it's not quite sprintf compatible 2021-02-18T23:42:03Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-18T23:42:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:43:03Z |3b|: i guess i can try to redirect stderr to a file or something and look at the default logging there 2021-02-18T23:43:36Z Bike: could you write a little wrapper that gets an actual string with vsprintf and then passes that to the lisp callback? 2021-02-18T23:44:06Z |3b|: don't really want to build a so just for 1 tiny function :p 2021-02-18T23:44:09Z Nilby: I think in practice you can do it, but it's not portable, so CFFI doesn't offer it. The va_list arg tend to be just as stack pointer, so with a stack pointer you can pull out the C args if you know exactly what they are. 2021-02-18T23:44:10Z |3b|: easier to just find stderr 2021-02-18T23:44:18Z Bike: fair enough 2021-02-18T23:44:47Z |3b|: (not completely trivial since i'm not actually working at the tty on which the code is running, but not too horrible) 2021-02-18T23:45:04Z jasom: It's entirely possible that if you treat va_list as a void * you can pass it along opaquely to sprintf, but that's ugly... 2021-02-18T23:46:59Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-18T23:47:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:47:14Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-02-18T23:47:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:48:07Z |3b|: Xach: can you see if current version of cl-libinput builds enough for quicklisp now? 2021-02-18T23:48:12Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:50:13Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-18T23:51:22Z jasom: |3b|: a quick test on x64 shows that va_list is indeed treated like a void *. Writing a quick cffi test now... 2021-02-18T23:51:51Z Xach: |3b|: where is it? 2021-02-18T23:51:53Z |3b| is on arm64 :/ 2021-02-18T23:51:59Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2021-02-18T23:52:09Z |3b|: Xach: it is in ql already, just blacklisted 2021-02-18T23:52:27Z |3b|: due to "hasn't built in a while" or something like that 2021-02-18T23:52:50Z |3b|: it is less picky about library locations now, so that might have fixed it 2021-02-18T23:53:10Z Xach: |3b|: package NIX does not exist 2021-02-18T23:53:59Z jasom: arm64 generates wildly different code for the two :( 2021-02-18T23:54:14Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Thank you very much |3b|! :-) 2021-02-19T00:19:33Z jasom: |3b|: for arm64 take a struct like this, and you can pass it along unmodified: https://github.com/ARM-software/abi-aa/blob/f52e1ad3f81254497a83578dc102f6aac89e52d0/aapcs64/aapcs64.rst#122the-va_list-type 2021-02-19T00:20:48Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-19T00:24:22Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-19T00:27:06Z kevingal: @asarch you can also use the arrow keys: ctrl+up and ctrl+down. 2021-02-19T00:27:51Z kevingal: (If it's not sacrilege to leave the sacred home row). 2021-02-19T00:30:25Z jasom: |3b|: actually do to the way structs are passed by value on arm64, the void pointer should work 2021-02-19T00:31:01Z |3b| thinks it is too much of a hack to add to somebody else's library :) 2021-02-19T00:31:17Z |3b|: (and logging to a file works well enough for figuring out why it won't run) 2021-02-19T00:34:45Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T00:45:56Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-19T00:47:03Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-19T00:48:40Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-19T00:51:04Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-19T00:57:42Z landakram quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T00:58:14Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-19T00:58:17Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-19T00:58:53Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-19T01:00:02Z landakram joined #lisp 2021-02-19T01:02:32Z White_Flame: if you want local utility functions for your macrolet compile-time bodies use, is that possible? 2021-02-19T01:03:19Z Bike: macrolet expander functions aren't allowed to refer to the runtime lexical environment, so you can't refer to flet/labels definitions, if that's what you mean 2021-02-19T01:04:09Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-19T01:05:05Z Bike: you can use flet/labels within the expander itself, of course, or refer to local definitions in expansions 2021-02-19T01:06:34Z White_Flame: right 2021-02-19T01:06:39Z landakram quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T01:08:55Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-19T01:12:04Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-19T01:13:48Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-19T01:30:16Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-19T01:32:17Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-02-19T01:37:53Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-19T01:41:48Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-19T01:41:59Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-19T01:43:59Z brandflake11 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T01:44:55Z brandflake11 left #lisp 2021-02-19T01:46:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T01:48:21Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-19T01:51:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-19T02:00:21Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-19T02:00:41Z jxy_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-19T02:01:01Z jxy joined #lisp 2021-02-19T02:04:09Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-19T02:10:01Z villanella1 quit (Quit: villanella1) 2021-02-19T02:10:16Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-19T02:14:51Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-19T02:19:17Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-19T02:20:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T02:21:47Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-19T02:23:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-19T02:23:47Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-19T02:27:30Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-19T02:34:09Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-19T02:34:28Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T02:36:32Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-19T02:37:01Z Stanley00 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-19T02:37:08Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-19T02:37:09Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-02-19T02:37:09Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-19T02:37:09Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-19T02:41:16Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-19T02:52:53Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-19T02:55:52Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Any idea what could be wrong ? 2021-02-19T06:34:46Z recalloc joined #lisp 2021-02-19T06:36:12Z iskander: if i remove quicklisp setup from .sbclrc then the prompt appear instantaneously 2021-02-19T06:36:59Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-19T06:43:40Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T06:44:42Z judson_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-19T06:45:14Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T06:47:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-19T06:54:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T06:56:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-19T06:58:14Z jackdaniel: asdf is quite heavy, quicklisp calls (require 'asdf) - but I don't think that this would account for 2 minutes on a sensible machine 2021-02-19T07:00:41Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-19T07:00:41Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T07:02:39Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-02-19T07:03:29Z iskander: sometimes it is quicker, maybe a minute, but in the past i didn't notice any delay at all, maybe setup for quicklisp has changed in the meantime 2021-02-19T07:04:35Z bdixat quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-19T07:08:50Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-19T07:16:21Z kpoeck: iskander Try (ql:update-client), I believe Xach said version 2021-02-11 has a performance problem scanning the local-projects directory. Version 2021-02-13  should fix that 2021-02-19T07:17:09Z iskander: Already did :( The most up-to-date client, version 2021-02-13, is already installed. 2021-02-19T07:17:09Z Colleen: iskander: kpoeck said 11 minutes, 38 seconds ago: Try (ql:update-client), I believe Xach said version 2021-02-11 has a performance problem scanning the local-projects directory 2021-02-19T07:17:44Z kpoeck: And there dies a nice theory :-( 2021-02-19T07:18:06Z kpoeck: Can you trace compile-file? 2021-02-19T07:18:35Z iskander: hmm, my local repositories dir contains 49 git repos, not all of them LISP, maybe if i point my repo to a subdir for LISP 2021-02-19T07:20:08Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-19T07:20:41Z kpoeck quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-19T07:20:57Z iskander: but still is 49 git repos really a problem here ? i'll try to debug it 2021-02-19T07:23:02Z kilimanjaro quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-19T07:23:51Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-19T07:26:02Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-19T07:29:37Z iskander: guys, does that mean that you have no such issues ? 2021-02-19T07:31:00Z hardstuck joined #lisp 2021-02-19T07:31:44Z samebchase- quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-19T07:32:37Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T07:32:59Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-19T07:33:32Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-19T07:35:18Z jackdaniel: I haven't updated the client yet 2021-02-19T07:36:15Z samebchase- joined #lisp 2021-02-19T07:46:44Z gj joined #lisp 2021-02-19T07:47:57Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-19T07:49:50Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-19T07:55:12Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-19T07:56:27Z pve: iskander: try reducing the number of files it has to scan when it starts up 2021-02-19T07:58:27Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-19T08:05:42Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-02-19T08:06:42Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-19T08:09:18Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2021-02-19T10:29:59Z beach: clhs remove 2021-02-19T10:30:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 2021-02-19T10:30:19Z beach: asarch: Replace DELETE by REMOVE. 2021-02-19T10:31:09Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-02-19T10:31:17Z asarch: Yeah! Thank you! Thank you very much! :-) 2021-02-19T10:42:36Z terrorjack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T10:46:54Z villanella1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-19T10:49:32Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-19T10:49:56Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-02-19T10:55:41Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-19T10:56:05Z frodef: I'm thinking to start using github (with emacs, slime etc), any tips on tools or techniques I might find useful? 2021-02-19T10:59:43Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-19T11:02:27Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T11:03:08Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:03:22Z heisig: frodef: I'm not sure I understand your question. But my two pieces of advice would be to use Magit for managing Git from Emacs, and to prepare for leaving Github as soon as Microsoft starts acting weird. 2021-02-19T11:04:47Z scymtym: frodef: if you are not already using it, the magit package for emacs is a great interface to git. it requires a time investment to reach "fluency", but that is well worth it in my experience. if you want to go further down that road, there is the forge package which adds github-specific information and actions to magit (it also supports gitlab and other "forges") 2021-02-19T11:08:00Z frodef: ok thanks. 2021-02-19T11:08:28Z frodef: so.. MS bought github, I gather :) 2021-02-19T11:08:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T11:09:43Z TMA: that's really old news 2021-02-19T11:11:29Z phao joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:11:47Z phao left #lisp 2021-02-19T11:16:33Z scymtym: i think the main consideration is whether to rely heavily on features beyond git such as issues, wiki, package hosting, continuous integration and so on 2021-02-19T11:17:01Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:23:09Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-19T11:24:15Z Stanley00 quit 2021-02-19T11:25:16Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T11:26:18Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:27:39Z terrorjack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T11:29:05Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:29:09Z svetlyak40wt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T11:29:47Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:31:10Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:33:04Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:33:27Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-19T11:34:05Z svetlyak40wt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T11:37:53Z galex-713_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T11:40:19Z terrorjack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T11:40:38Z ex_nihilo: Given a file in a Slime buffer containing only: (let ((msg "Foo.")) (format t "~A~%" msg)) 2021-02-19T11:40:47Z ex_nihilo: When slime-compile-and-load-file is invoked with C-c C-k, "Foo." is printed before the repl prompt. 2021-02-19T11:40:53Z ex_nihilo: But, given: (let ((line (read-line))) (format t "~A~%" line)) 2021-02-19T11:41:00Z ex_nihilo: after C-c C-k the point is left following the repl prompt, waiting for input; and after input is given it is echoed, but then the point is left at the beginning of a blank line and ENTER must be pressed again to get back to the repl prompt even though evaluation of the file should now be completed. 2021-02-19T11:41:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T11:41:06Z ex_nihilo: I get the same behavior if I evaluate the LET form with slime-eval-region using C-c C-r. 2021-02-19T11:41:12Z ex_nihilo: Running the same file as a script, or entering the same LET form at the repl, the code behaves as expected without exhibiting this blocking behavior after echoing the input. 2021-02-19T11:41:17Z ex_nihilo: This seems to be i/o related, but I don't understand why this would work when entered directly in the repl, but not when evaluated from a file; is it just a quirk of the Slime repl, or am I missing something about how code is sent to the repl? 2021-02-19T11:41:29Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:41:41Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:42:05Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T11:44:13Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:52:24Z terrorjack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T11:53:51Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-02-19T11:54:19Z louis771 left #lisp 2021-02-19T11:55:52Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:02:15Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T12:03:28Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:08:37Z mgsk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T12:08:37Z ffwacom quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T12:08:37Z mjl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T12:08:37Z splittist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T12:08:38Z yonkunas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T12:13:17Z mjl joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:13:21Z Alfr_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-19T12:13:27Z splittist joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:13:41Z mjl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T12:13:41Z splittist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T12:15:31Z mjl joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:15:46Z splittist joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:16:48Z ffwacom joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:18:49Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:19:19Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:19:41Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-19T12:20:46Z mgsk joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:23:07Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:24:17Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:25:58Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:28:12Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-19T12:28:14Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-19T12:28:15Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-19T12:29:39Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:30:33Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-19T12:33:53Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:36:09Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-19T12:39:44Z frodef: Any perspectives on doom emacs? (sorry to bring up what I guess are old threads..) 2021-02-19T12:40:46Z ilshad joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:40:49Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T12:48:11Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-19T13:03:17Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:06:07Z mpontillo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T13:07:19Z mpontillo joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:08:30Z terrorjack quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T13:08:51Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:09:05Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-19T13:09:50Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:10:13Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:14:36Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T13:19:55Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:20:31Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:25:50Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-19T13:26:19Z mpontillo quit 2021-02-19T13:26:32Z mpontillo joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:26:53Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:30:51Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:34:13Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:37:09Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-19T13:39:29Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-19T13:39:42Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T13:40:10Z Cthulhux: doom emacs is a good starter package (although i cant stand the evil-mode anymore) 2021-02-19T13:40:18Z Cthulhux: but you'll end up writing your own configuration anyway 2021-02-19T13:40:26Z Cthulhux: save some time and start from scratch! 2021-02-19T13:41:26Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:41:43Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:45:35Z _Posterdati_ is now known as Posterdati 2021-02-19T13:46:27Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-19T13:51:20Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:52:14Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-19T13:52:21Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:52:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:53:57Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-19T13:57:09Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-19T13:59:26Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T14:03:29Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T14:04:22Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-19T14:05:32Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T14:06:06Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-19T14:06:26Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-19T14:09:40Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-19T14:09:54Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-19T14:09:56Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T14:10:39Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T14:14:44Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-02-19T14:16:24Z fubbiquantz joined #lisp 2021-02-19T14:18:06Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-19T14:19:53Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-19T14:20:31Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T14:20:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-19T14:23:36Z fubbiquantz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-19T14:25:22Z galex-713_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T14:25:40Z ym joined #lisp 2021-02-19T14:25:50Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-19T14:27:48Z svetlyak40wt joined #lisp 2021-02-19T14:27:54Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T14:28:22Z shka_: Cthulhux: sick of the vi style or something in evil in particular? 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#lisp 2021-02-19T17:48:30Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-19T17:58:39Z mason left #lisp 2021-02-19T17:59:54Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T18:02:27Z ebrasca: is this code ok "(defgeneric (setf find-host) (new-value host))" ? 2021-02-19T18:02:46Z recalloc: Yep, that looks right 2021-02-19T18:03:23Z ebrasca: I was not sure if it does works with defgeneric. 2021-02-19T18:04:00Z recalloc: setf totally works with defgeneric. I even think CLOS secretly uses generic setf's when defining slot writers. 2021-02-19T18:05:14Z recalloc: `(defparameter +whitespace-p+ (cl-unicode:property-test "whitespace"))` feels silly. Is there a way I could "defparameter" a function? 2021-02-19T18:06:34Z ebrasca: (defparameter +whitespace-p+ (lambda ...)) ? 2021-02-19T18:08:03Z recalloc: That would still bind it to a special variable instead of a function. 2021-02-19T18:08:33Z recalloc: (property-test) returns a function, and I'd want to call tha function like (whitespace-p char) instead of (funcall +whitespace-p+ char). 2021-02-19T18:08:43Z Bike: there are no special bindings in the function namespace, no. 2021-02-19T18:08:57Z Bike: you can do (defun whitespace-p (char) (funcall *whitespace-p* char)) of course. 2021-02-19T18:09:13Z recalloc: ...all right, probably the best I could hope for. 2021-02-19T18:09:27Z Bike: and yes, when you define slot readers and writers through defclass they are generic functions. 2021-02-19T18:09:34Z TMA: you can (setf symbol-function) it as well 2021-02-19T18:10:50Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T18:11:21Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T18:11:49Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T18:13:50Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-19T18:16:33Z Bike: oh, yeah, if you only want to change the global binding you can just do (setf (fdefinition 'whitespace-p) (cl-unicode:property-test "whitespace")) 2021-02-19T18:19:16Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T18:19:32Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T18:20:44Z KUrare joined #lisp 2021-02-19T18:24:05Z louis771 left #lisp 2021-02-19T18:25:57Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T18:28:16Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T18:28:19Z Krystof: I don't really recommend this, but restarts are dynamically-bound functions 2021-02-19T18:30:29Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-19T18:31:28Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I'm thinking tramp-mode for editing plus connecting to a swank server, but maybe there's a better way? 2021-02-19T18:59:23Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-19T19:00:02Z Xach: jasom: lately i've been using remote emacs, with xterm-mode for mouse click/drag, two vertical panes on a wide terminal, and mosh. 2021-02-19T19:00:04Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-19T19:00:24Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T19:00:32Z Xach: jasom: some terminals can also transparently sync the remote kill ring with the local clipboard (not my xterm, though) 2021-02-19T19:00:53Z Xach: oh, and screen 2021-02-19T19:01:03Z Xach: i really like GUI emacs, but this isn't too bad. 2021-02-19T19:01:23Z jasom: you use screen and mosh? I thought they both did detachment, so is the screen just for multiplexing? 2021-02-19T19:02:36Z Xach: jasom: Can you detach from mosh and re-attach? All my searches said no. 2021-02-19T19:02:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-19T19:02:51Z jasom: Xach: I don't use it so you're probably right then 2021-02-19T19:02:52Z Xach: Anyway, screen gives some flexibility to connect from ssh or something else in a pinch. 2021-02-19T19:03:22Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T19:03:27Z Xach: mosh isn't a requirement, but it really helps keep things seamless day to day. 2021-02-19T19:03:35Z Xach: and it helps with the latency a bit 2021-02-19T19:05:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-19T19:05:24Z jasom: in this case the machine is plugged into the same ethernet switch, so latency not an issue 2021-02-19T19:05:30Z flip214_: beach: I'll be having discussions for some time yet... I delivered my paper and had a few meetings already 2021-02-19T19:05:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T19:06:36Z ilshad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T19:08:43Z Xach: jasom: ah. for me, tramp had too much latency, and i had trouble getting the translation to work. i've found it simpler to use a remote emacs with mouse support instead. 2021-02-19T19:09:02Z Xach: it took me until late 2020 to find out that there was a way to get mouse clicks on a remote emacs :( 2021-02-19T19:09:12Z jasom: I suppose over ethernet I could even do X tunneling 2021-02-19T19:09:40Z Xach: i use and like mac GUI emacs, and hate how X emacs looks on a Mac display, and the keys didn't map right and I didn't want to figure it out. 2021-02-19T19:09:44Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-19T19:09:54Z Xach: i don't mind X emacs on a Linux desktop though. 2021-02-19T19:11:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-19T19:12:06Z Cthulhux: is Xemacs still developed? 2021-02-19T19:12:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T19:12:41Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T19:13:15Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-19T19:13:20Z Xach: I don't know. when I wrote "X emacs" I mean GNU Emacs displaying on an X server. 2021-02-19T19:13:27Z Xach: Not through a terminal. 2021-02-19T19:14:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-19T19:15:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T19:16:57Z a138 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T19:17:35Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-19T19:18:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T19:18:56Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T19:19:45Z recalloc: Is there any chance of optimization by declaiming an ftype? I want to indicate the intended parameter type (and promised return type if filled), but I don't want it to error if the wrong type is passed in. 2021-02-19T19:20:09Z recalloc: s/error/cause undefined behavior/ 2021-02-19T19:20:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-19T19:20:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T19:22:39Z Bike: optimizations that use the parameter type information would in general result in undefined behavior if an object of the wrong type is passed in 2021-02-19T19:23:10Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T19:23:33Z recalloc: aight, good to know! 2021-02-19T19:24:19Z Bike: e.g., you have (lambda (a b) (+ a b)), you declare that A and B are fixnums - the optimization would be using a fixnum addition routine instead of a general addition routine - you call it with floats, it tries to interpret them as fixnums, problems happen. 2021-02-19T19:26:13Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-19T19:28:34Z galex-713_ joined 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timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-19T19:50:24Z flip214_: minion: memo for heisig: DANKE!!! 2021-02-19T19:50:25Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell heisig when he/she/it next speaks. 2021-02-19T19:51:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-19T19:51:42Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-19T19:51:43Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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This is a first for me 2021-02-19T22:20:36Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T22:21:15Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-19T22:21:51Z galex-713__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-19T22:21:51Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-19T22:22:42Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-19T22:25:13Z meursault: What kind of application? 2021-02-19T22:25:16Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-19T22:26:59Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-19T22:27:15Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-02-19T22:27:36Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-19T22:27:41Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-19T22:34:00Z Josh_2: It's the python wrapper of the Olm library 2021-02-19T22:40:45Z KUrare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-19T22:45:47Z davd33 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-19T22:48:06Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-19T22:53:43Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-19T22:53:51Z theothor` joined #lisp 2021-02-19T22:56:29Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-19T22:57:59Z Josh_2: The original python library is apache license 2, obviously I haven't modified or used any of their original code as the code is basically just FFI calls, do I have to use the apache license 2? 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From what I could tell, *evalhook*/*applyhook* was part of standard but I haven't used it before so might be wrong? 2021-02-20T06:33:20Z azrazalea2: 2.1.0 that is 2021-02-20T06:34:04Z beach: Those are not part of the standard. 2021-02-20T06:34:16Z azrazalea2: That would explain it then! Alright. 2021-02-20T06:36:35Z azrazalea2: So I was looking into it because I'm wanting to make a simple bot calculator by accepting lisp forms as a string from a user and then evaluating and returning them. I wanted those hooks so I could validate what types of data they had sent using *evalhook* to check overall types (numbers and symbols only) and *applyhook* to validate the functions 2021-02-20T06:36:36Z azrazalea2: are in a whitelist. Is the best way to do this going to be to use `read` and then walk the forms myself? 2021-02-20T06:37:07Z azrazalea2: (well `read-from-string` but yeah) 2021-02-20T06:40:38Z beach: That's one possibility. There are several other options. You could use Eclector to read the form. Then you can control how symbols are created and you can have those symbols interned in the package of your choice. 2021-02-20T06:41:07Z ilshad joined #lisp 2021-02-20T06:42:39Z beach: Or, you can do what I do for SICL bootstrapping. I evaluate the forms relative to a first-class global environments of my choice. 2021-02-20T06:43:25Z peasynt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-20T06:44:09Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-20T06:44:33Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-20T06:46:37Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T06:47:34Z azrazalea2: Well, I might eventually want to get more fancy and allow setting and expansion of local variables but to start with my needs were pretty simple. Just cons based lists with the basic numeric operations (including sqrt, expt, etc etc) as the first element and either another valid list or a numeric value as arguments. 2021-02-20T06:47:45Z azrazalea2: Anything else rejected 2021-02-20T06:48:17Z azrazalea2: I can write it myself relatively easily, but I was looking to see if I didn't have ot 2021-02-20T06:53:35Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-20T07:04:13Z fe[nl]ix: jmercouris: ping 2021-02-20T07:04:47Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T07:12:50Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T07:14:07Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-20T07:14:56Z ilshad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T07:16:38Z azrazalea2 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T07:18:31Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T07:18:49Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-20T07:21:02Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T07:30:53Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-20T07:31:48Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T07:34:11Z ilshad joined #lisp 2021-02-20T07:34:49Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-20T07:40:51Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T07:47:35Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T07:47:43Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-20T07:51:51Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Anywhere.) 2021-02-20T07:53:30Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-02-20T07:55:47Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T07:56:03Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-20T08:01:04Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-20T08:01:44Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T08:02:59Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-20T08:04:08Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T08:06:40Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2021-02-20T08:07:45Z ilshad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T08:12:47Z aindilis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-20T08:21:43Z loke[m]: Tes 2021-02-20T08:21:45Z loke`: Test 2021-02-20T08:22:44Z loke` is now known as loke 2021-02-20T08:26:35Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T08:27:33Z loskutak joined #lisp 2021-02-20T08:27:38Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-20T08:33:49Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-20T08:35:47Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-20T08:39:48Z imode quit (Quit: Sleepy time.) 2021-02-20T08:44:05Z citizenajb quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-20T08:48:01Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-20T08:49:40Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T08:51:22Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-20T08:55:34Z salazar joined #lisp 2021-02-20T08:58:09Z caesarsalad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-20T09:00:12Z christopheroei[m quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2021-02-20T09:08:13Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:09:12Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-20T09:09:28Z a138 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:09:39Z jasom joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:10:52Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T09:11:08Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-20T09:11:49Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:12:10Z caesarsalad joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:13:45Z salazar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T09:16:45Z ilshad joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:21:20Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:21:41Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:23:59Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:24:12Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-20T09:24:25Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:24:37Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:25:50Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T09:26:57Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-20T09:28:02Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:28:36Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T09:30:28Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-20T09:31:09Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:31:45Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-20T09:40:41Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:42:05Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T09:49:16Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:49:16Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:52:42Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-02-20T09:56:54Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-20T09:58:01Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T10:01:56Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T10:03:52Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T10:05:21Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-02-20T10:07:31Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-20T10:08:54Z jmercouris: fe[nl]ix: Yes, I would be very interested in that! 2021-02-20T10:09:04Z jmercouris: Are my messages not going through? 2021-02-20T10:09:33Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-20T10:14:36Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T10:16:30Z datajerk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T10:20:37Z datajerk joined #lisp 2021-02-20T10:21:16Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T10:28:04Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-20T10:31:51Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-20T10:34:29Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-20T10:42:46Z phoe: I see your messages 2021-02-20T10:42:49Z phoe: two of them 2021-02-20T10:43:06Z phoe: so does https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp 2021-02-20T10:47:16Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-20T10:47:27Z villanella quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-20T10:47:41Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T10:48:06Z meursault joined #lisp 2021-02-20T10:48:10Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-20T10:49:09Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-20T10:51:20Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T11:00:07Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-20T11:04:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T11:07:15Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-20T11:12:52Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T11:13:42Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-20T11:31:17Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T11:31:34Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-20T11:39:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T11:39:32Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-20T11:39:58Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-20T11:45:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-20T11:45:14Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-02-20T11:45:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-20T11:49:26Z add^_ left #lisp 2021-02-20T11:57:19Z zdm quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb1~bpo10+1 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-20T11:57:39Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-20T11:58:00Z zdm joined #lisp 2021-02-20T11:58:45Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T12:00:42Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-20T12:02:15Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-20T12:06:44Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-20T12:13:09Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-20T12:13:12Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-20T12:13:36Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T12:19:24Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-02-20T12:21:01Z _Posterdati_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T12:22:12Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-20T12:22:18Z muyinliu joined #lisp 2021-02-20T12:22:24Z _Posterdati_ is now known as Posterdati 2021-02-20T12:23:58Z muyinliu_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T12:28:02Z muyinliu_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-20T12:28:02Z muyinliu quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2021-02-20T12:28:25Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T12:37:06Z kapil_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T12:38:57Z kapil_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T12:43:50Z kopiyka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-20T12:56:24Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-02-20T12:56:51Z puchacz quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-20T13:03:27Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-20T13:15:14Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-20T13:16:12Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-20T13:24:12Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-20T13:27:58Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T13:29:04Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-20T13:29:48Z McParen joined #lisp 2021-02-20T13:31:19Z VincentVega: Hi! With parachute, how do I run all known tests? `(mapcar #'parachute:test (parachute:package-tests *package*))' includes repeating tests, since some are suites and have children. Hmmm..... 2021-02-20T13:33:26Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T13:34:54Z VincentVega17 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T13:35:14Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-20T13:37:42Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T13:38:44Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-02-20T13:46:07Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T13:47:43Z docl_ is now known as docl 2021-02-20T13:50:05Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T13:50:37Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-20T13:53:07Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-02-20T13:57:37Z andreyorst joined #lisp 2021-02-20T13:58:30Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-20T14:00:19Z kopiyka joined #lisp 2021-02-20T14:03:44Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-20T14:04:25Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-20T14:08:29Z luna_is_here quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-02-20T14:10:05Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T14:11:00Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T14:12:38Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-02-20T14:14:45Z VincentVega17: nvm, problem solved, just removed those that have a parent 2021-02-20T14:17:04Z Josh_2: Afternoon 2021-02-20T14:18:02Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T14:20:33Z beach: Hello Josh_2. 2021-02-20T14:20:51Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T14:21:31Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T14:22:09Z luna_is_here quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T14:22:42Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T14:24:22Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-02-20T14:24:40Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-20T14:24:57Z Josh_2: how is your work going beach? 2021-02-20T14:26:20Z beach: It is going great, thank you. I recently finished adapting the high-level intermediate code to the required structure according to may draft paper on call-site optimization, and I am now thinking about register allocation. 2021-02-20T14:26:21Z beach: Josh_2: What about yours? 2021-02-20T14:26:28Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-02-20T14:30:19Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-20T14:37:34Z alanz_ is now known as alanz 2021-02-20T14:38:20Z McParen left #lisp 2021-02-20T14:50:27Z andreyorst[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-20T14:54:10Z luna_is_here quit (Quit: luna_is_here) 2021-02-20T14:54:38Z Josh_2: Good news all around then 2021-02-20T14:54:46Z Josh_2: My 'work' is going quite well 2021-02-20T14:54:52Z beach: Great! 2021-02-20T14:55:40Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-02-20T14:58:51Z Josh_2: Does someone have an example of how I should structure my tests so they are seperate but I can use asdf to invoke them? 2021-02-20T15:01:12Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T15:01:23Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T15:03:41Z Josh_2: Okay I found one! 2021-02-20T15:04:01Z ex_nihilo: Yesterday I posted a question here about what seems to me to be a peculiar interaction between the Slime repl and user i/o with code run from a file. No responses yet; any takers? The question was posted over several messages, but I can repost if someone wants me to. 2021-02-20T15:06:16Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T15:11:21Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-20T15:11:26Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T15:12:56Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T15:12:57Z luna_is_here quit (Quit: luna_is_here) 2021-02-20T15:13:02Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-20T15:13:20Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2021-02-20T15:17:52Z luna_is_here joined #lisp 2021-02-20T15:23:12Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-02-20T15:24:08Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T15:28:16Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T15:32:45Z Josh_2: can I write my own metaclass that would mean all associated methods would only be evaluated conditionally, basically I want to check if I have freed some memory with an associated object before any methods (but one) are called? 2021-02-20T15:33:08Z Josh_2: theres no point calling something like (identity-keys ) if I had previously freed the pointer assocated with 2021-02-20T15:36:29Z Josh_2: but I don't want to write an :around for every method that would be a pain 2021-02-20T15:47:39Z loskutak quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-20T15:48:21Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-02-20T15:53:13Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-20T15:54:35Z Bike: ex_nihilo: i think that's just slime? dunno. does the same thing happen when you run your lisp from the shell or whatnot? 2021-02-20T15:55:17Z Bike: Josh_2: I'm not sure I totally understand what you want, but method combinations can do completely arbitrary things. 2021-02-20T15:57:08Z ex_nihilo: Bike: no. If I run the code as a script from a shell it works as expected, and if I type the code directly into the Slime repl it runs as expected. It is only when I send the code from a Slime buffer to the repl, e.g., with slime-compile-and-run, that the behavior gets wonky. 2021-02-20T15:57:33Z puchacz: Bike: having read your article, the memory barrier linux kernel article and lispworks doc, I decided that the portable way between lisps of starting a thread with a new lambda or submitting a lambda to a queue to be executed by a long running thread is: 2021-02-20T15:57:54Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-02-20T15:57:59Z Bike: ex_nihilo: slime isn't usually used that way, i spose 2021-02-20T15:59:22Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-20T15:59:50Z puchacz: (let ((arg1 "something") (arg2 3) (started-p)) (write-barrier) (submit-lambda (lambda () (loop :until started-p) (read-barrier) (use arg1 arg2)))) 2021-02-20T15:59:55Z ex_nihilo: Bike: that's fair enough; what seemed most peculiar to me was that (let ((line (read-line))) (format t "~A~%" line)) works as expected when typed directly into a Slime repl, but not when sent to a Slime repl from a file. 2021-02-20T16:00:56Z Bike: puchacz: if you're going that far you may as well use an actual lock 2021-02-20T16:01:09Z puchacz: as barriers are not about timings, but partial ordering only, so in this "design pattern" when I see started-p as true, I know that other variable was already written. 2021-02-20T16:01:15Z Bike: more lisps have locks exposed than have barriers exposed, too 2021-02-20T16:01:34Z puchacz: Bike - not really, how would I know that a lock is already available in a lexical variable? 2021-02-20T16:02:02Z puchacz: (let ((lock (bt:make-lock))) (submit-lambda () ... car I really assume lock is bound) )? 2021-02-20T16:02:08Z puchacz: car = can 2021-02-20T16:03:10Z Bike: that's true. i suppose it would need to be a lock used by the actual long living thread 2021-02-20T16:03:48Z puchacz: yes. also lock protected section does not protect against reodering from before lock acquire to after lock release. 2021-02-20T16:04:10Z puchacz: and I want to make sure that arg1 arg2 are bound and objects they point to are fully written to memory 2021-02-20T16:04:40Z puchacz: and in the loop in my example you can add :do (bt:yield) to make the wait less busy 2021-02-20T16:04:47Z puchacz: that's what I started using 2021-02-20T16:04:50Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T16:04:56Z Josh_2: Bike: well I have a lot of various methods for various classes but almost all of them utilize a foreign pointer, I don't want the methods to execute their bodies if the pointer has previously been freed, but I don't want to go and write a :before / :around method for all of them 2021-02-20T16:06:03Z VincentVega17 quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T16:07:26Z puchacz: sorry, there is (setf started-p t) after my (write-barrier) of course 2021-02-20T16:09:12Z Bike: i would guess there's not a difference between binding it to T, and binding it to NIL and then setting it to T. i mean, you're kind of implicitly assuming that if the lambda doesn't read started-p = T, it will read started-p = NIL, no? 2021-02-20T16:09:28Z Bike: and my basic concern is that i suspect the queue just uses locks itself, in which case you don't need to do any synchronization 2021-02-20T16:09:45Z Bike: like, if submit = (with-lock (queue-lock) (enqueue lambda)) and the work thread does (with-lock (queue-lock) (dequeue)) 2021-02-20T16:10:36Z Bike: Josh_2: i think a method combination might work for this yeah. 2021-02-20T16:12:22Z puchacz: according to the memory-barriers.txt article, lock only ensures the right ordering between acquire and release, so using a lock on dequeuing only does not protect arg1 and arg2. by binding started-p to nil and then setting it to t I am (1) assuming that lisp is designed well enough that started-p will never be a garbage, but indeed it will have nil 2021-02-20T16:12:23Z puchacz: first and then t, nothing else. 2021-02-20T16:13:03Z Bike: if you're programming at this level that may not be a reasonable assumption 2021-02-20T16:13:14Z puchacz: I am programming a normal Lisp :) 2021-02-20T16:13:17Z puchacz: at least I try 2021-02-20T16:13:38Z puchacz: I did not figure out how to do it with fewer assumptions and not using globally available lock 2021-02-20T16:13:41Z Bike: if the enqueuing and dequeing work with locks it will be synchronized. When you do the enqueue, queue-lock is released, which gives you a write barrier, so arg1 and arg2 are written. 2021-02-20T16:15:14Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-20T16:15:28Z Bike: i mean if you're at this level, then for the lambda to observe started-p = nil, you are assuming some kind of write barrier anyway, right? 2021-02-20T16:16:07Z puchacz: assuming normal Lisp's lexical visibility rule only 2021-02-20T16:17:06Z puchacz: lispworks docs is very careful about the objects that are pointed by these lexical variables. they are not guaranteed to be fully committed 2021-02-20T16:17:30Z Bike: i thought we decided lisipworks didn't really make any guarantees about closures 2021-02-20T16:18:18Z puchacz: they say though that a variable will have any of the values it ever had, never garbage or something else 2021-02-20T16:18:34Z puchacz: I hope that this can stand true for other lisps 2021-02-20T16:19:57Z josrr joined #lisp 2021-02-20T16:20:57Z josrr: ex_nihilo: out of curiosity I tried it in SLY; this is what happened: https://www.rufina.link/video/vokoscreen-2021-02-20_10-12-49.mp4 2021-02-20T16:23:23Z puchacz: Bike, they say here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/LW/html/lw-142.htm "When one of these mutable atomic objects is modified, readers see either the old or new value (not something else), and it is guaranteed that the Lisp image is not corrupted by the modification even if multiple threads read or write the object simultaneously." 2021-02-20T16:24:20Z puchacz: so I know started-p will be nil or t as seen by the other thread, and I am assuming that other lisps are keeping this guarantee. if they don't, I don't know how I could really pass anything to a closure. 2021-02-20T16:25:09Z zxcvz joined #lisp 2021-02-20T16:25:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-20T16:25:28Z Bike: this doesn't mention access to closure variables, which is what you're doing here 2021-02-20T16:26:09Z ex_nihilo: josrr: interesting; is SLY opening up a separate repl to take the input there? How did you compile and run; C-c C-k? 2021-02-20T16:26:36Z Bike: and i mean normally what you'd do is set up some kind of synchronization method with the long-running thread beforehand, as with the queue-lock i mentioned 2021-02-20T16:27:20Z puchacz: yes, having thought of it now, you are right 2021-02-20T16:27:45Z puchacz: synchronisation on the queue adding is enough 2021-02-20T16:28:01Z Bike: i'm worried i might have led you down an overcomplicated path here 2021-02-20T16:28:22Z puchacz: I don't know if android supplied queue has the lock 2021-02-20T16:28:29Z puchacz: and I cannot use the same lock anyway 2021-02-20T16:28:48Z puchacz: so I would need to provide my own lock 2021-02-20T16:29:00Z Bike: i think i said this before, but if you're paying for lispworks, you should really be able to just ask them what the story is 2021-02-20T16:29:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-20T16:29:22Z puchacz: I also want my code to be portable, android access is not the only place I use threads. 2021-02-20T16:29:33Z puchacz: I spoke to them many times, but not about this yet 2021-02-20T16:30:19Z josrr: ex_nihilo: no, SLY is using the minibuffer to get de input. I used C-c C-k, but C-c C-r does the same 2021-02-20T16:30:31Z Bike: i mean the only problem with the android access is that you're using this add-to-queue function that you don't control, like you can't look at it and see if it does use a lock or what 2021-02-20T16:30:44Z Bike: (and if it does i don't see why you'd need your own lock) 2021-02-20T16:32:59Z puchacz: so for other threading, do you agree that a portable lisp code should not rely on the lock being visible in the lexical variable? 2021-02-20T16:33:08Z puchacz: where I have started-p, if I keep a lock 2021-02-20T16:33:27Z puchacz: android stuff is not portable outside of lispworks anyway 2021-02-20T16:35:03Z ex_nihilo: josrr: for completeness, I saw the same issue when I used C-c C-r with Slime. It sounds like SLY has the issue sorted; I have never tried SLY, but I have wanted to for some time.... 2021-02-20T16:42:03Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-20T16:42:11Z puchacz: Bike, I know what I was thinking:-) 2021-02-20T16:42:50Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-20T16:43:11Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-20T16:43:36Z puchacz: if I was to use a lock, I would put (setf started-p t) (notify) inside a critical section, and do the same (bt:with-lock-held () loop :until started-p :do (wait) 2021-02-20T16:44:04Z puchacz: simply because the whole critical section and therefore a barrier can appear to happen after my closure is already running 2021-02-20T16:44:31Z puchacz: but I would still need to be sure about lock and condition-variable visibility in the closure 2021-02-20T16:46:01Z puchacz: so basically I would do java style pattern, but in java a lock and cv are the same object, and I could ensure its visibility if it was put in final variable 2021-02-20T16:47:07Z puchacz: so I believe as there are no final lexical variables in lisp, I am making fewer assumptions by using a binary started-p instead 2021-02-20T16:47:22Z Bike: i mean here's the fundamental problem: you're trying to ensure a closure variable is visible. to do that, you're synchronizing... through a closure variable. 2021-02-20T16:47:56Z puchacz: without a lock, I am using a simple binary flag and a barrier 2021-02-20T16:48:18Z puchacz: but yes, I agree. if the binary flag has a garbage, then it would not work 2021-02-20T16:50:06Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-20T16:51:26Z Bike: "simply because the whole critical section and therefore a barrier can appear to happen after my closure is already running" no, because with what i'd be thinking you'd be holding the lock _while enqueing the thunk_, and there's no way a dequeue can get the thunk until after it's been enqueued 2021-02-20T16:52:05Z puchacz: yes, I see it now. 2021-02-20T16:52:45Z puchacz: my problem of critical section in the parent thread happening after dequeueing would only be an issue with my pattern, but with a lock/cv and a flag instead of a memory barrier 2021-02-20T16:53:02Z puchacz: so you gave me a solution - use a lock to queue and dequeue 2021-02-20T16:53:05Z puchacz: it is portable 2021-02-20T16:53:19Z puchacz: as of android queue, I will ask lispworks support :) 2021-02-20T16:54:15Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-20T16:54:59Z Bike: i've been reading atomic queue designs over the last few weeks, ones that mention not doing synchronization. this conversation has really put into perspective what an incredible pain in the ass that can be 2021-02-20T16:55:33Z puchacz: indeed. and I am really not doing anything low level, just trying to do normal application level Lisp correctly 2021-02-20T16:56:14Z Bike: yeah 2021-02-20T16:56:52Z Bike: the lispworks people are smart, i don't think they'd expose a queue if it would result in garbage appearing everywhere 2021-02-20T16:57:45Z puchacz: I am wondering now if I design a queue/dequeue mechanism (or say use lparallel), can I get "bla-bla is not a lock" on dequeuing? if the long running executor thread tries to dequeue in critical section, and encounters a lock that is not fully created? I will not get this error in lispworks, as they explicitely say that everything created before 2021-02-20T16:57:46Z puchacz: creating a thread will be fully committed, so it is enough if I create a lock first and then my long running executor. easy. but other implementations? 2021-02-20T16:58:29Z Bike: i really doubt any implementation would not synchronize make-thread 2021-02-20T16:58:46Z Bike: if make-thread is not synchronized, i'm not sure you could coordinate anything across threads ever 2021-02-20T16:59:13Z puchacz: some things are created on (load ...) or simiar 2021-02-20T16:59:20Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-20T16:59:47Z puchacz: anyway, my comment is not relevant 2021-02-20T16:59:51Z puchacz: you are probably right 2021-02-20T17:00:23Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-20T17:00:29Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-20T17:00:40Z puchacz: I am only wondering what stassats (on #sbcl) meant by saying I need to protect everything that is shared with locks or barriers, and my scenarios are not about shared things. 2021-02-20T17:00:49Z puchacz: I will try to catch him at some point :) 2021-02-20T17:03:45Z puchacz: so thanks for all your input, Bike :) 2021-02-20T17:04:46Z Bike: i hope it helps 2021-02-20T17:07:45Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-02-20T17:09:59Z puchacz: it does. I narrowed down my problem to android queue only. other cases are sorted by a queue/dequeue lock providing I create a long running executor after the lock in lispworks, because their manual says so, and it will work in sbcl because stassats says so, at least about similar scenarios, so I need more details. 2021-02-20T17:13:01Z puchacz: and as a side note, I heard that clojure people sorted a lot of these problems, but I never tried. and I would not want to use clojure for other reasons anyway, despite many similarities it is a different language than common lisp after all. 2021-02-20T17:16:29Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T17:16:53Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-20T17:18:09Z josrr quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2021-02-20T17:18:47Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-20T17:24:31Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T17:27:12Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T17:28:16Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-20T17:37:50Z Bike quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T17:42:21Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T17:47:14Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-20T17:47:30Z davros_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T17:50:18Z davros quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-20T17:52:00Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T17:52:59Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-20T17:53:48Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-20T17:53:55Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:02:41Z renzhi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2021-02-20T18:02:56Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T18:05:21Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-20T18:07:12Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:07:31Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T18:08:39Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:08:57Z didi joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:10:09Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T18:10:10Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:12:39Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T18:13:48Z didi: What about https://paste.debian.net/hidden/9b945b27 for reading every object from a stream? 2021-02-20T18:17:52Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:22:42Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:26:57Z ilshad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-20T18:30:05Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:32:43Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:37:25Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T18:38:03Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T18:38:26Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-20T18:40:17Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:40:28Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:42:38Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:43:05Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:44:53Z devon: didi: Looks good to me. I'd say end, eof or eos not x. 2021-02-20T18:45:20Z didi: devon: True. 2021-02-20T18:45:33Z devon: didi: and I'd say (loop :with end := '#:end ... 2021-02-20T18:46:06Z didi nods 2021-02-20T18:46:27Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-20T18:46:30Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-20T18:47:37Z didi: devon: Thank you. 2021-02-20T18:50:05Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:53:56Z KeyboardWorrier quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T18:54:49Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-02-20T18:57:18Z loskutak joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:58:32Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:59:02Z miasuji joined #lisp 2021-02-20T18:59:33Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:00:25Z caesarsalad quit (Quit: Bye) 2021-02-20T19:02:14Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:08:00Z Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 2021-02-20T19:08:26Z zxcvz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-20T19:08:42Z zxcvz joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:13:03Z ikki joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:17:52Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:20:21Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-20T19:20:24Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:21:00Z ilshad joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:29:34Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:29:50Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-20T19:31:24Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:32:39Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T19:34:05Z sepanko_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:38:13Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-20T19:40:05Z zxcvz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-20T19:42:04Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:44:22Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:44:36Z ilshad quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-20T19:45:01Z nij: Hello! Frequently I need to parse timestrings in several different format. I have written ad hoc solutions for them.. but I think there should be a more general way to parse.. any package that has achieved that? 2021-02-20T19:45:21Z nij: For example.. I'm hoping for a #'parse-time such that 2021-02-20T19:46:24Z nij: (parse-time "%m%m/%d%d/%y%y%y%y" "11/20/2020") => @2020-11-20 2021-02-20T19:47:02Z Bike: there's local-time https://common-lisp.net/project/local-time/manual.html#Parsing-and-Formatting 2021-02-20T19:47:15Z nij: Or.. is there a general enough parser that helps me do this, with a smarter control sequence? 2021-02-20T19:47:43Z nij: Bike: local-time is actually my favorite time-related library.. iirc it doesn lemme do that. Just checked its doc. But let me double check again. 2021-02-20T19:48:17Z nij: Bike: in particular, its #'parse-timestring accepts by default its +iso-8601-format+. 2021-02-20T19:49:16Z nij: (formatting is easy; parsing is hard..) 2021-02-20T19:49:55Z Bike: mm, you're right, i don't see arbitrary parsing here 2021-02-20T19:50:21Z nij: I feel this is used many times.. but weird enough that there is no general library as I checked.. 2021-02-20T19:50:38Z nij: so maybe people just use full fledged parsers.. which is something that i haven't learned 2021-02-20T19:51:26Z nij: e.g. parsec, but in lisp 2021-02-20T19:53:09Z Bike: i haven't worked with time enough myself to tell you, sorry 2021-02-20T19:53:23Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-20T19:53:38Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:53:58Z nij: hey no worries at all! 2021-02-20T19:54:10Z nij: thanks for reaching out anyway :-)! 2021-02-20T19:54:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-20T19:54:23Z nij: and now im more convinced that i need to learn parser combinators badly 2021-02-20T19:55:50Z pfdietz: or call out to a parser in some other language using cffi. 2021-02-20T19:56:03Z nij: pfdietz: hehehe that'd work 2021-02-20T19:56:25Z nij: i will see if parser combs work.. its an elegant idea 2021-02-20T19:56:30Z nij: so worth learning anyway 2021-02-20T19:56:36Z pfdietz: The easiest way to write a parser is let someone else already have done it. 2021-02-20T19:57:24Z nij: agree! 2021-02-20T19:57:47Z didi: I did the same thing regarding "War and Peace". 2021-02-20T19:58:22Z edgar-rft: you wrote CFFI bindings for "war and peace"? 2021-02-20T19:58:25Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-20T19:58:26Z nij: didididthesamething 2021-02-20T19:58:54Z _death: there is a library called chronicity, though I've not used it 2021-02-20T19:59:00Z didi: edgar-rft: Didn't even need to do it. Tolstoy beat me to it. 2021-02-20T20:00:44Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-20T20:01:53Z edgar-rft didn't know that Tolstoy was a CFFI user 2021-02-20T20:02:01Z nij: _death: oh it's very sweet 2021-02-20T20:02:02Z nij: https://lisper.in/nlp-date-parser 2021-02-20T20:02:23Z nij neither, edgar-rft 2021-02-20T20:02:49Z nij: _death: im so curious how that's done 2021-02-20T20:02:52Z nij: thanks for pointing that out 2021-02-20T20:03:26Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T20:04:26Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:04:47Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-20T20:06:30Z nij: Ah.. but the limit of natural language parsing is that there's not standard answer anyways.. so sometimes it needs to guess. 2021-02-20T20:06:57Z nij: E.g. (chronicity:parse "12/11/2020") returns November, but (chronicity:parse "12/15/2020") returns December. 2021-02-20T20:07:01Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:07:12Z nij: so.. I will go learn parser combinators anyway xD 2021-02-20T20:07:46Z VincentVega: how do I import/export a ```defun (setf smth)```? ```(import '(smth))``` isn't doing the trick. 2021-02-20T20:08:10Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:09:07Z VincentVega: i meant `(import '(other-package::smth))` ofc 2021-02-20T20:11:08Z _death: nij: I wrote this https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2307#2307 a long-time ago for some small-time date-time parsing 2021-02-20T20:11:56Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T20:12:45Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-20T20:12:51Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:13:23Z Bike: VincentVega: import/export is about symbols. if SMTH is imported you can refer to SMTH, (setf smth), whatever 2021-02-20T20:13:53Z nij: _death: dod you remember what's an example of TEMPLATE? 2021-02-20T20:13:55Z pfdietz: Generally you should do import/export with defpackage. 2021-02-20T20:15:13Z ilshad joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:15:23Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-20T20:15:38Z _death: nij: for example (parse-using-digits-template "22/11/0000 33:44" "05/08/1962 05:25") 2021-02-20T20:15:42Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T20:15:55Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T20:16:03Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:16:11Z VincentVega: Bike: you are right, I messed up the spelling of the symbol I imported : D 2021-02-20T20:17:51Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:17:51Z VincentVega: pfdietz: OK! By the way, is there a way to check for unused symbols which were imported with a defpackage? 2021-02-20T20:19:09Z nij: _death: oh i see i need cl-utilities 2021-02-20T20:20:14Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:21:16Z _death: nij: once-only is from alexandria 2021-02-20T20:22:54Z nij: oh oh ! both worked 2021-02-20T20:24:01Z _death: anyway.. nowadays I wouldn't make some of the choices I did back then :).. but that's what I use in some scrapers I wrote back then 2021-02-20T20:25:25Z nij: it's useful anyway :D 2021-02-20T20:25:37Z nij: hmm but i think the following would be useful 2021-02-20T20:25:43Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:25:44Z nij: which isn't in cl-str (https://github.com/vindarel/cl-str) 2021-02-20T20:25:48Z nij: for example 2021-02-20T20:27:05Z nij: (collect "aaaa-bb-cc-b" "2020-11-20-@") => (:a "20203" :b "11@" :c "20" :- "---") 2021-02-20T20:27:23Z nij: (expand "a4-b2-c2-b") => "aaaa-bb-cc-b" 2021-02-20T20:27:39Z nij: What do you guys think? Useful? Improvable? 2021-02-20T20:28:15Z nij: Ah.. a typo sorry. Fixed: (collect "aaaa-bb-cc-b" "2020-11-20-@") => (:a "2020" :b "11@" :c 2021-02-20T20:28:15Z nij: "20" :- "---") 2021-02-20T20:28:53Z nij: Similarly, (collect "aabbccaabb" "1234567890") => (:a "1278" :b "3490" :c "56") 2021-02-20T20:31:59Z miasuji quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-20T20:32:11Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-20T20:33:34Z _death: you can use Lisp syntax for structure, instead of a string template.. like (collect '((a 2) (b 2) (c 2) (a 2) (b 2)) sequence) 2021-02-20T20:34:20Z nij: oh yeah! i was fainted by #'format 2021-02-20T20:34:26Z _death: then you can extend the pattern language 2021-02-20T20:34:43Z nij: what's the pattern lang? 2021-02-20T20:35:11Z _death: the template describes a pattern 2021-02-20T20:35:42Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-20T20:36:23Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T20:37:34Z _death: maybe there's a CL version of emacs's rx? 2021-02-20T20:37:37Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:38:24Z _death: if not, feel free to write one ;) 2021-02-20T20:38:38Z didi: cl-ppcre can use a sexp syntax. 2021-02-20T20:39:10Z _death: didi: yeah.. but I like rx better 2021-02-20T20:40:15Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-20T20:41:14Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:42:29Z _death: I tend not to use regular expressions.. but I guess for a task like scraping they may be ok 2021-02-20T20:45:58Z louis_ joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:47:47Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:51:36Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T20:52:28Z drdo joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:53:21Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T20:53:22Z Bike quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T20:53:52Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:54:06Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T20:54:22Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:54:45Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-20T20:55:03Z _death: nij: for format, there was a (setf format) thingy.. so you could (setf (format nil "~D-~D-~D" year month day) "1999-12-31") and it would assign the numbers to year/month/day 2021-02-20T21:01:03Z andreyorst[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T21:01:03Z a138 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-20T21:01:09Z louis_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-20T21:05:31Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T21:07:56Z nij: yep format is nice 2021-02-20T21:08:11Z nij: but.. how does my #'collect has anything to do with rx? 2021-02-20T21:10:06Z _death: it's just another way to extract fields from a string 2021-02-20T21:12:41Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-20T21:13:12Z louis771: can anyone of you recommend lispwork over sbcl? 2021-02-20T21:15:16Z mfiano: LispWorks is nice, but it's very easy to write non-portable code with the array of impleemntation-specific niceties it has, and I can't justify the license cost over free and extremely performant SBCL. 2021-02-20T21:16:45Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-20T21:17:26Z nij: _death: Oh wow indeed, I thought rx is just for pattern matching.. but it's actually almost the same problem. There's a nice showcase here: http://francismurillo.github.io/2017-03-30-Exploring-Emacs-rx-Macro/ 2021-02-20T21:17:38Z nij: I might just use rx... but is there an easier way to call elisp functions? 2021-02-20T21:18:02Z nij: Better/easier then (run-program "emacsclient -e \'...\'") 2021-02-20T21:18:24Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-20T21:18:31Z louis771: i'm just a few weeks into lisp and oscillate somewhat between CL and Racket. I found CL the more mature, practial Lisp however Racket provides a unified batteries-included approach incl. an IDE and a central package server. 2021-02-20T21:19:17Z louis771: What I don't like about Racket is the obsession of it being a language to program programming languages. It's just what I'm not so much interested in. I want to do more practical stuff (web app, etc.) 2021-02-20T21:19:26Z nij: speaking of this.. how great is racket's ide comparing to emacs? 2021-02-20T21:20:15Z nij: louis771: A reason I heard of why Lisp is great is that it's easier for you to implement your own language for your specific problem. 2021-02-20T21:20:21Z mfiano: Well that's hard to answer. Racket being derived from Scheme has a different take on live-recompilation/incremental modifications. 2021-02-20T21:20:28Z nij: So implementing languages don't really imply that it's not practical. 2021-02-20T21:20:31Z louis771: far far away from great. No search, and no live REPL eval 2021-02-20T21:20:58Z rogersm quit 2021-02-20T21:21:24Z louis771: nij: no its just that the whole community is obsessed by that particular use case 2021-02-20T21:21:31Z nij: oh i c.. 2021-02-20T21:21:38Z louis771: when I build a web app I don't need to write a new language. 2021-02-20T21:22:36Z louis771: some nice macros to make life easier is fine for me, but inventing a new DSL so nobody else but me will be able to understand my code is outside my scope :) 2021-02-20T21:23:34Z louis771: from a "getting things done" perspective, or say a more business point of view, you guys think that CL is the better alternative? 2021-02-20T21:23:36Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T21:23:56Z mfiano: Most definitely. 2021-02-20T21:24:47Z louis771: and quicklisp is alive and healthy? 2021-02-20T21:25:04Z louis771: on it's page I see "Bye, Common Lispers 👋 2021-02-20T21:25:04Z louis771: 2021-02-20T21:25:04Z louis771: Quickdocs had been closed on Oct 16th, 2020. Thank you for using Quickdocs." 2021-02-20T21:25:06Z nij: louis771: note that #lisp is "actually #common-lisp".. so answer here might be biased. 2021-02-20T21:25:15Z mfiano: That's not Quicklisp 2021-02-20T21:25:32Z nij: general lisp related stuff actually goes to ##lisp 2021-02-20T21:25:39Z louis771: mfiano: I'm sorry, true. But when I do a search on quicklisp this is where I end up 2021-02-20T21:26:30Z Cthulhux: the weirdest thing about quicklisp is its neverending beta. 2021-02-20T21:26:36Z nij: xD 2021-02-20T21:26:39Z nij: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 2021-02-20T21:27:01Z nij: louis771: you might also be interested in #racket too 2021-02-20T21:28:02Z Cthulhux: i used racket to write a web application once 2021-02-20T21:28:13Z Cthulhux: interestingly, it was easier than with common lisp 2021-02-20T21:28:17Z louis771: nij: oh I have some nice conversations in the racket community in the last few days and did some coding, but somehow I "feel" that it's not the direction I wanna go. But I'm unable to express why at the moment. 2021-02-20T21:28:21Z citizenajb joined #lisp 2021-02-20T21:28:31Z citizenajb left #lisp 2021-02-20T21:28:31Z Cthulhux: it just doesnt require all that project boilerplate 2021-02-20T21:28:35Z louis771: Cthulhux: because it has an integrated web-server ? 2021-02-20T21:28:36Z Cthulhux: asdf still annoys me 2021-02-20T21:28:43Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-20T21:28:53Z Cthulhux: louis771: probably.. :) 2021-02-20T21:28:56Z citizenajb joined #lisp 2021-02-20T21:29:32Z louis771: Cthulhux: yes, Racket has a nice package management but try to get a packet in the package server. 2021-02-20T21:29:51Z louis771: You have to learn Scribble first, which is the documentation language written in Racket 2021-02-20T21:30:34Z louis771: Which was exactly the moment where I realized that maybe the price of "build a new language for every use case" is too high 2021-02-20T21:30:47Z wanamingo joined #lisp 2021-02-20T21:31:29Z Cthulhux: racket comes with half a dozen languages already - i'll need to find out how they can talk to each other though 2021-02-20T21:32:00Z Cthulhux: e.g. i haven't found out how to use lang/ features from lang/webserver 2021-02-20T21:32:56Z meursault quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T21:33:07Z louis771: the racket devs are not interested in making Racket a day-to-day language for practical/business use cases. They are into language research, so everything in the community evolves around that. 2021-02-20T21:33:30Z louis771: so you guys can tell me that it's not that way in the CL community? :-) 2021-02-20T21:33:48Z VincentVega: louis771: I don't know how much of it is still relevant (e.g. racket 8.0 just came out and it's supposed to be quite faster), but here's the comparison https://gist.github.com/vindarel/c1ef5e043773921e3b11d8f4fe1ca7ac 2021-02-20T21:33:53Z Cthulhux: it's not. because there are no CL devs. the standard is there, everything else is a package 2021-02-20T21:33:54Z Cthulhux: :)) 2021-02-20T21:34:11Z VincentVega: goddamn, this autoinsert 2021-02-20T21:34:17Z puchacz: CL is the most pragmatic language I know 2021-02-20T21:34:38Z VincentVega: well, i guess you wont have to click the link then 2021-02-20T21:34:47Z louis771: "No introspection compared to one with SLIME." - yes that was really disappointing 2021-02-20T21:35:01Z louis771: in CL you can even hot-update classes, that is amazing 2021-02-20T21:35:43Z louis771: "most of Racket libraries are half-baked: unfinished, failing to build, and lacking documentation" - I must agree here too 2021-02-20T21:35:56Z didi left #lisp 2021-02-20T21:37:15Z louis771: VincentVega: a very nice article, thanks! I have to agree to most of it from what I experience the last few days of studying Racket 2021-02-20T21:38:19Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-20T21:39:11Z VincentVega: louis771: yeah, no problem : ) Note that Emacs is no small thing to consider either, especially with the aggressive-indent + paredit (lispyville for evil) combination, which I have grown to think of as indispensible now. 2021-02-20T21:39:38Z VincentVega: don't know if racket ide has those 2021-02-20T21:39:54Z puchacz: is there slime or sly (I use sly) for racket? 2021-02-20T21:40:02Z louis771: there is racket-mode 2021-02-20T21:40:11Z puchacz: I was considering playing with it to boost my general computer science knowledge 2021-02-20T21:40:13Z louis771: but I didn't really do much with it 2021-02-20T21:40:35Z louis771: editing cl in emacs is a joy 2021-02-20T21:40:42Z puchacz: agree 2021-02-20T21:40:56Z Cthulhux: paredit is annoying in all languages which aren't lisp 2021-02-20T21:41:06Z louis771: emacs _is_ a lisp IDE and slime makes it even more powerful 2021-02-20T21:42:46Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T21:42:54Z VincentVega: Cthulhux: even with lisp it only clicked for me on the second try 2021-02-20T21:43:53Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-02-20T21:44:57Z ilshad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-20T21:49:34Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-20T21:52:48Z markasoftware: i've got a small MOP question. At http://mop.lisp.se/www.alu.org/mop/concepts.html#defmethod it says that the (make-instance) call for the method metaobject can receive a :declarations initarg 2021-02-20T21:52:59Z markasoftware: for declarations in the defmethod body 2021-02-20T21:53:11Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T21:53:14Z markasoftware: but here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/MOP/mop/dictionary.html#Initialization there is no :declarations initarg mentioned for method metaobjects 2021-02-20T21:53:26Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-20T21:54:01Z Christ0pher is now known as KeyboardWorrier 2021-02-20T21:55:23Z Bike quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T21:55:30Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-20T21:56:32Z markasoftware: and the SBCL definition of `standard-method` seems not to take a :declarations initarg 2021-02-20T21:57:27Z ilshad joined #lisp 2021-02-20T21:58:41Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-20T21:59:18Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-20T21:59:46Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T22:00:02Z citizenajb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T22:00:11Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-20T22:00:19Z nullkl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-20T22:03:31Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T22:04:03Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T22:04:36Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T22:04:47Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-20T22:04:59Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-20T22:05:09Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-20T22:06:02Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-20T22:07:37Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-20T22:08:57Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-20T22:13:06Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-20T22:15:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T22:16:53Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-02-20T22:17:36Z warweasle: Yay! I'm pulling data from the stock market! Ah, my ridiculously circuitous plan is one quarter complete! 2021-02-20T22:17:39Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-20T22:18:23Z warweasle: It's so nice to be working in lisp again. 2021-02-20T22:18:57Z _death: step 4 is the big one 2021-02-20T22:19:24Z warweasle: ...let's see... one...two..three...AH, FOUR...Profit! 2021-02-20T22:20:06Z warweasle: Honestly I'm a little more concerned with using the training data to create a stock predictor. 2021-02-20T22:20:31Z _death: retrodictor? 2021-02-20T22:21:04Z warweasle: Given the size of the data set and the number of variables... I should be done just before the heat death of the universe...if I had a quantum computer. 2021-02-20T22:21:06Z warweasle: :( 2021-02-20T22:22:07Z warweasle: Screw it: (defun paperclip-maximizer (starting-planet) ... 2021-02-20T22:24:19Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-20T22:26:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-20T22:27:32Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T22:29:43Z markasoftware: I'm also a confused about the example `defmethod` expansion given here http://mop.lisp.se/www.alu.org/mop/concepts.html#defmethod will work if the generic function is not defined yet 2021-02-20T22:30:11Z markasoftware: it seems to me like the (ensure-generic-function) call will initialize it with a nil lambda-list, so adding a method with a non-nil lambda list right afterwards will trigger an error 2021-02-20T22:30:34Z markasoftware: because the empty lambda list is not congruent with the lambda list of the new function 2021-02-20T22:31:44Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-20T22:33:29Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-20T22:34:32Z Bike: the MOP book has a lot of little issues like this. you might be better off looking at what implementations actually do. 2021-02-20T22:35:57Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-20T22:39:05Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T22:52:06Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-20T23:00:05Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-20T23:02:42Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-20T23:05:16Z loskutak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T23:05:21Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-20T23:09:21Z louis771 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-20T23:11:56Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T23:12:36Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T23:14:08Z nullkl joined #lisp 2021-02-20T23:14:57Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T23:15:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T23:17:12Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-02-20T23:19:16Z louis771 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T23:19:35Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-20T23:32:11Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-20T23:34:36Z ilshad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T23:35:27Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-20T23:35:37Z quanta[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-20T23:39:06Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-20T23:39:31Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-20T23:41:39Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-20T23:43:05Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-20T23:43:28Z Xach: gendl: http://report.quicklisp.org/2021-02-20/failure-report/gendl.html#base 2021-02-20T23:43:46Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-20T23:47:18Z loli joined #lisp 2021-02-20T23:50:16Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-20T23:50:33Z luis quit (Quit: The Lounge - 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ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-21T04:39:31Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-02-21T04:41:43Z jeosol: Good morning beach 2021-02-21T04:44:38Z jeosol: no-defun-allowed: just saw your pull request on implement a linear-probing hash-table into SICL. Good work 2021-02-21T04:45:19Z jeosol: I'll quickly going through the linked to get to understand better 2021-02-21T04:48:14Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-21T04:48:50Z thmprover: Say, how mature is SICL? 2021-02-21T04:49:11Z beach: thmprover: Not mature at all. 2021-02-21T04:49:23Z beach: No executable yet. 2021-02-21T04:50:00Z beach: But thanks to the way bootstrapping works, most of the code exists, has been executed, and seems to work. 2021-02-21T04:50:42Z thmprover: It looks quite interesting. 2021-02-21T04:51:13Z beach: I recently finished revamping the way high-level IR was generated in order to take into account the ideas in my draft paper on call-site optimization. 2021-02-21T04:51:40Z thmprover: Oh, beach, you're Robert Strandh? 2021-02-21T04:52:03Z beach: Er, yes. "beach" is just a translation of "strand". 2021-02-21T04:52:29Z beach: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf for the draft paper. 2021-02-21T04:53:57Z beach: In the past, I also used "spiaggia", "plage", and "Ufer". 2021-02-21T04:55:25Z thmprover: Cool, I was just thinking about this topic earlier today. (Not that I have anything new to contribute, but just pondering function calls and their optimization in functional languages.) 2021-02-21T04:56:12Z beach: The technique in that paper will make Common Lisp function calls faster than a typical C function call in a shared library. 2021-02-21T04:56:21Z azrazalea: beach: You've been `beach` for yeeearrss though right? I've gone on a couple hiatuses and you're still here lol (thank goddess <3) 2021-02-21T04:57:01Z beach: azrazalea: Yes, I am not going anywhere. Unless the virus hits or something, of course. 2021-02-21T04:57:19Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-21T04:58:27Z jeosol: Na beach, you are immune from the virus 2021-02-21T04:58:35Z Nilby: beach: please stay around as long as possible 2021-02-21T05:00:12Z azrazalea: Yep, we like you here ^-^ 2021-02-21T05:00:40Z thmprover: Oh, beach, David Gudeman's "Representing Type Information in Dynamically Typed Languages" (1993) is the earliest paper on NaN-boxing (if you still need a citation for footnote 1). 2021-02-21T05:03:30Z beach: Thanks! 2021-02-21T05:03:57Z beach: thmprover: Oh, thank you! I have been looking for that. 2021-02-21T05:05:13Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-21T05:12:14Z beach: thmprover: Updated. Thanks again. 2021-02-21T05:15:31Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-21T05:18:04Z thmprover: beach: anytime :) 2021-02-21T05:18:58Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-21T05:24:24Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T05:24:31Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-21T05:25:16Z Bike quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-21T05:30:19Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-21T05:35:46Z louis771 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-21T05:39:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T05:39:19Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-21T05:41:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-21T05:42:22Z thmprover: Alright, time for bed, good night all. 2021-02-21T05:42:27Z thmprover quit (Quit: Up, up, and away) 2021-02-21T05:46:59Z villanella1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T05:47:02Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T05:47:08Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-21T05:47:14Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-21T05:53:14Z louis771 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-21T06:06:05Z louis771 joined #lisp 2021-02-21T06:20:32Z kini quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-21T06:24:21Z semz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-21T06:30:16Z kini joined #lisp 2021-02-21T06:34:32Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T06:34:56Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-21T06:35:02Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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They call it "regular type expressions". 2021-02-21T13:15:35Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-21T13:15:39Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-21T13:16:46Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T13:18:43Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-02-21T13:18:46Z g0d_shatter joined #lisp 2021-02-21T13:22:17Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-21T13:22:18Z villanella quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-21T13:26:09Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-21T13:29:21Z amb007 joined #lisp 2021-02-21T13:29:21Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I was thinking that there would be something like the the array's (array type), so the compilers can have the information to optimise. 2021-02-21T14:18:38Z rpg joined #lisp 2021-02-21T14:20:05Z pyc quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-21T14:20:15Z pyc joined #lisp 2021-02-21T14:37:24Z beach: leo_song: The array types are determined by the fact that arrays are specialized. A specialized array can hold only objects of a particular type because of the very way the array is represented in memory. But CONS cells can not be specialized that way, so there is no way to guarantee that such a type constraint will remain true. 2021-02-21T14:48:11Z carkh: mhh is an array of structs stored in-line in some implementations ? like in c ? 2021-02-21T14:48:28Z beach: That would violate the semantics of Common Lisp. 2021-02-21T14:48:49Z carkh: would it ? 2021-02-21T14:48:57Z beach: Yes, you would lose identity. 2021-02-21T14:49:04Z carkh: ah yes 2021-02-21T14:49:15Z carkh: so pointer chasing it is 2021-02-21T14:49:18Z beach: (eq (aref ...) 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I don't recognize your nick. 2021-02-21T17:02:50Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2021-02-21T17:07:13Z dra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T17:09:41Z ikki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-21T17:11:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-21T17:12:26Z ganjajim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T17:13:18Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-21T17:20:04Z vegansbane6963 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T17:20:07Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-21T17:20:52Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-21T17:21:09Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-21T17:21:24Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-21T17:22:52Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-21T17:25:11Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-21T17:25:14Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-21T17:26:56Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(defun f () ()) (setf g #'f) doesn't do what I want, in that (g) returns error. 2021-02-21T18:12:01Z contrapunctus: nij: defalias ? 2021-02-21T18:12:06Z nij: I think I'm looking for a version of #'SETF for functions, but cannot find it. 2021-02-21T18:12:14Z contrapunctus: Oh sorry, wrong channel /o\ 2021-02-21T18:12:28Z nij: xD 2021-02-21T18:12:30Z contrapunctus: (I thought this was #emacs lol) 2021-02-21T18:12:41Z nij: It's close enough... (silenced) 2021-02-21T18:13:35Z Alfr: nij, (setf (symbol-function 'g) #'f) 2021-02-21T18:13:59Z amerigo joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:13:59Z nij: oh! thanks :D 2021-02-21T18:14:17Z nij: so i guess there's no common shorthand notation for it? 2021-02-21T18:16:08Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-21T18:16:56Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-21T18:20:34Z pent quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-21T18:20:52Z pent joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:21:09Z Alfr: nij, there's also (setf (fdefinition ..) ..); fdefinition also accepts function-names, e.g. (setf frob), which symbol-function does not. 2021-02-21T18:22:11Z Alfr: nij, also make sure that what you assign really is a function (not a special operator or macro). 2021-02-21T18:23:55Z nij: got it :-D thanks a lot, Alfr! 2021-02-21T18:28:26Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:29:19Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-21T18:30:32Z mjl joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:30:52Z unimog joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:32:25Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:34:43Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-21T18:35:21Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:36:45Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-21T18:38:32Z diskop quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-21T18:41:15Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:41:45Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-21T18:43:28Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:44:41Z loskutak joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:49:46Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-21T18:54:47Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-21T18:55:04Z u0_a156 joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:55:31Z u0_a156: ☺ 2021-02-21T18:55:54Z u0_a156: 大家好 2021-02-21T18:57:45Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-21T18:58:34Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:58:36Z u0_a156: /close 2021-02-21T18:59:01Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-21T18:59:24Z jpli joined #lisp 2021-02-21T19:00:38Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-21T19:01:25Z u0_a156 left #lisp 2021-02-21T19:01:58Z villanella quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-21T19:03:24Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-21T19:03:50Z lukego: Hey can anyone recommend (or not) an OpenCV binding for Lisp? 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I'll play around 2021-02-21T22:18:56Z Xach: Josh_2: have you considered passing base64 in that case? 2021-02-21T22:20:58Z Bike: the foreign function ought to document what it expects, base64 or otherwise 2021-02-21T22:21:04Z Bike: course it might not. documentation sucks sometimes. 2021-02-21T22:21:09Z Josh_2: well yes 2021-02-21T22:21:31Z Bike: But, I mean, knowing that it wants unsigned char* is not enough. 2021-02-21T22:21:44Z Josh_2: I pass it the base64 encoded string converted to a pointer that I receive from a different function 2021-02-21T22:21:50Z Josh_2: and I keep getting an error 2021-02-21T22:21:55Z Xach: lol 2021-02-21T22:22:17Z Xach: Truly not enough info to give good guesses 2021-02-21T22:22:31Z Bike: yeah. we know nothing. 2021-02-21T22:22:41Z Josh_2: Well I'm copying some python code, I can show you that 2021-02-21T22:23:02Z Josh_2: and my lisp version 2021-02-21T22:23:14Z Xach: What C library and function is it? 2021-02-21T22:23:24Z Josh_2: the Olm library 2021-02-21T22:23:53Z Xach: Josh_2: function? 2021-02-21T22:24:20Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-21T22:24:20Z Josh_2: one sec 2021-02-21T22:25:54Z Josh_2: https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm/-/blob/master/python/tests/account_test.py#L74 this is the test I'm trying to copy, it uses the methods sign https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm/-/blob/master/python/olm/account.py#L185 and ed25519_verify https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm/-/blob/master/python/olm/utility.py#L83 2021-02-21T22:26:04Z rozenglass quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-21T22:26:06Z Josh_2: Now I can go find the C versions 2021-02-21T22:26:56Z Josh_2: https://github.com/K1D77A/cl-megolm/blob/master/src/account.lisp#L87 that is my lisp version of sign, and this is my lisp version of ed25519 verify https://github.com/K1D77A/cl-megolm/blob/master/src/utility.lisp#L33 2021-02-21T22:27:16Z Bike: https://github.com/orlp/ed25519/blob/master/src/verify.c this i guess? 2021-02-21T22:27:30Z Josh_2: Looks like it 2021-02-21T22:28:55Z Bike: if it's crypto it probably doesn't care about encoding. 2021-02-21T22:29:05Z Josh_2: it is crypto 2021-02-21T22:29:30Z Bike: So what error are you getting and what's signaling it? 2021-02-21T22:30:34Z Josh_2: You can call (%olm:utility-last-error ) and it will return a string telling you some information about the error 2021-02-21T22:30:40Z Josh_2: which is what my macro check-error does 2021-02-21T22:30:56Z loskutak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-21T22:31:20Z Josh_2: a condition is associated with each returned string and that is what gets signalled 2021-02-21T22:33:04Z Bike: okay, so it's the library that's hitting an error. 2021-02-21T22:33:31Z Josh_2: Yes 2021-02-21T22:34:01Z Josh_2: I should have made that more clear, sorry 2021-02-21T22:34:04Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-21T22:36:01Z Bike: the C library API doesn't mention errors. lovely. 2021-02-21T22:36:21Z Josh_2: Did you check the Olm library? 2021-02-21T22:37:13Z Bike: are you calling the python one somehow? or C? 2021-02-21T22:37:22Z Bike: your project doesn't actually depend on cffi directly, it looks like 2021-02-21T22:37:35Z Josh_2: Im calling the C one, I'm trying to copy the Python version 2021-02-21T22:37:44Z Josh_2: The Python version is using an FFI 2021-02-21T22:38:56Z Bike: okay, i see. you're using libolm, which is not the C library I linked. 2021-02-21T22:38:58Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T22:39:16Z Josh_2: Thats why I showed you the python version of the functions because I assume they are correctly using the C library 2021-02-21T22:39:20Z dale joined #lisp 2021-02-21T22:39:39Z Bike: but it's a completely different C library. 2021-02-21T22:39:46Z Bike: i mean. that's fine. just, say it earlier, next time? 2021-02-21T22:40:05Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-21T22:40:34Z Josh_2: The library you posted looks like the same C implementation they have in include/ 2021-02-21T22:40:41Z Josh_2: https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm/-/tree/master 2021-02-21T22:41:23Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-21T22:43:07Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T22:43:11Z Bike: but you're not interfacing with that api at all. you're using this one: https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm/-/blob/master/include/olm/olm.h and that's the one you need to understand 2021-02-21T22:43:21Z Bike: it mentions base64 a lot. 2021-02-21T22:43:23Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-21T22:44:10Z Josh_2: Yes 2021-02-21T22:44:59Z Josh_2: I've been looking at those 2021-02-21T22:45:23Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-21T22:47:41Z Josh_2: https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm/-/blob/master/include/olm/utility.hh here is the verify function 2021-02-21T22:48:28Z judson_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-21T22:49:56Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-21T22:50:17Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-21T22:54:59Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-21T22:59:16Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-21T22:59:46Z villanella quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T23:01:17Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-21T23:03:56Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-21T23:16:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-21T23:20:45Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-21T23:28:01Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-21T23:29:12Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-21T23:29:30Z Josh_2: I think I can get away with this even if verify isn't working ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2021-02-21T23:37:03Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-21T23:37:28Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-21T23:37:40Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-21T23:41:40Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-21T23:44:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-21T23:45:26Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-21T23:50:04Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-21T23:53:07Z ramenbytes left #lisp 2021-02-21T23:54:33Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-21T23:56:19Z sbryant joined #lisp 2021-02-21T23:57:22Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-21T23:57:31Z igemnace joined #lisp 2021-02-22T00:16:56Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-22T00:24:11Z Bike quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-22T00:25:51Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-22T00:41:56Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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Well uint8_t * could be any encoding or no encoding. 2021-02-22T02:51:20Z Nilby: If it's base64 I imagine it's converting aribtrary binary data, so you don't want a character encoding conversion. 2021-02-22T02:51:33Z Josh_2: okay 2021-02-22T02:51:38Z Josh_2: I'll try using an array instead 2021-02-22T02:52:33Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-22T02:57:05Z Nilby: On some platforms you can even use the lisp array data directly without conversion with cffi:with-pointer-to-vector-data. 2021-02-22T03:02:16Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-22T03:02:24Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-02-22T03:02:40Z leo_song: lukego: try use cffi-grovel to wrap by yourself? I find it pretty easy to use. 2021-02-22T03:03:20Z Josh_2: well when I use (cffi:with-foreign-array ..) I get an error about not being able to find an applicable method relating to cffi:dimensions 2021-02-22T03:05:51Z Josh_2: cffi:with-pointer-to-vector-data doesn't do that though, not that I can find that function in the online 2021-02-22T03:05:58Z Josh_2: in the online manual 2021-02-22T03:06:07Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-02-22T03:07:54Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-22T03:08:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-22T03:08:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-22T03:12:11Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-22T03:13:39Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-02-22T03:13:51Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-22T03:13:51Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-22T03:17:56Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-22T03:24:27Z zyz_ joined #lisp 2021-02-22T03:26:51Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-22T03:31:46Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-22T03:32:13Z Josh_2: Well I'm not getting invalid-base64, now I'm getting bad-message-version 2021-02-22T03:32:19Z Josh_2: so I guess thats progress :P 2021-02-22T03:35:00Z wxie1 joined #lisp 2021-02-22T03:38:57Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-22T03:38:57Z wxie1 is now known as wxie 2021-02-22T03:43:07Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-22T03:48:59Z zyz__ joined #lisp 2021-02-22T03:51:50Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-22T03:58:06Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-02-22T03:59:25Z Josh_2: Well I got it to work!! 2021-02-22T03:59:49Z Josh_2: Thanks for the heads up Nilby & mfiano 2021-02-22T04:00:42Z recalloc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-22T04:01:36Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-22T04:01:37Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:01:59Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:02:14Z Nilby: Nice. So good when things actually work after a struggle. 2021-02-22T04:03:29Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:04:26Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-22T04:04:39Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-22T04:04:58Z Josh_2: bit of a pita that I'm not longer using with-foreign-string as that automatically freed pointers 2021-02-22T04:05:56Z recalloc joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:06:24Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-22T04:06:47Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-22T04:07:23Z Nilby: Good morning. 2021-02-22T04:07:56Z Nilby: Josh_2: You might be able to use with-foreign-object, but really either way it's just an unwind protect wrapper. 2021-02-22T04:08:14Z devon joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:08:41Z Josh_2: exactly 2021-02-22T04:08:54Z Josh_2: Morning beach 2021-02-22T04:14:02Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-22T04:14:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:26:37Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:26:41Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-22T04:26:57Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:29:56Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:30:37Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:35:21Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-22T04:38:12Z zyz__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-22T04:41:05Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:44:29Z dbotton quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-22T04:44:57Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-22T04:50:31Z screwtape` joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:56:39Z mfiano: Morning 2021-02-22T04:56:55Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-22T04:57:10Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:57:14Z beach: Hello mfiano. 2021-02-22T04:58:32Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-22T04:58:56Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-22T04:59:18Z mfiano: I recently took a break from game development, after approximately 20 years. I'm really having a lot of fun developing another project with Common Lisp. 2021-02-22T04:59:39Z beach: Great! 2021-02-22T04:59:52Z beach: ... the Common Lisp part, that is. 2021-02-22T05:00:36Z mfiano: I've been writing a game engine/games in CL for about 15, but my burnout meter said I needed a break. 2021-02-22T05:03:42Z recalloc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-22T05:05:00Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-22T05:06:19Z thmprover quit (Quit: For Here, I Hope, Begins Our Lasting Joy) 2021-02-22T05:06:22Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-22T05:07:41Z beach: mfiano: I can understand that. 2021-02-22T05:12:05Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-22T05:13:13Z mfiano: I started a rather ambitious project that requires performance and interactive development, so Common Lisp makes perfect sense. But it's in its infancy, only about 10kloc so far. 2021-02-22T05:13:34Z gioyik_ joined #lisp 2021-02-22T05:14:56Z beach: Can you give a short description of the project? 2021-02-22T05:16:01Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-22T05:16:48Z Bike quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-22T05:19:52Z mfiano: It will be a library and end-user application for procedurally generating images such as abstract art or 3D textures than can wrap a game actor using math. Their is another project, called WEIR, which is a similar yet with a very different, limited use-case. 2021-02-22T05:19:59Z mfiano: s/Their/There/ 2021-02-22T05:20:36Z beach: That does sound ambitious. 2021-02-22T05:23:31Z mfiano: So far I have about 25 coherent noise algorithms and a bunch of transformations you can apply to them in a graph. Not much, but yes, it is ambitious. I made this example the other day with the limited tools I have implemented: https://i.lisp.cl/temp/art.png 2021-02-22T05:24:00Z mfiano: Lacking any sort of color composition as you can see :) 2021-02-22T05:24:21Z zdm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-22T05:24:47Z beach: I need to take your word for it. :) 2021-02-22T05:26:13Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-22T05:27:30Z mfiano: It's a single hue, if you can't see that. 2021-02-22T05:28:01Z mfiano: One day you might be able to drag graph nodes and connect transformer edges to each other and see results in real time outside of Emacs :) 2021-02-22T05:28:10Z mfiano: (in McCLIM) 2021-02-22T05:28:30Z beach: Now I see it. 2021-02-22T05:32:14Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-22T05:33:46Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-22T05:34:45Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-22T05:36:18Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-02-22T05:36:53Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-22T05:43:32Z krkini joined #lisp 2021-02-22T05:44:37Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-22T05:45:02Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-22T05:45:20Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-22T13:05:52Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-22T13:06:16Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-22T13:11:04Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-22T13:14:36Z ikki joined #lisp 2021-02-22T13:24:35Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-02-22T13:25:27Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-02-22T13:39:32Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-22T13:45:27Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-22T13:45:48Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-22T13:50:00Z Josh_2: cffi is causing my program to hang when I attempt to free a pointer created with (with-pointer-to-vector-data ..) 2021-02-22T13:50:12Z Josh_2: from what I can tell the pointer is not being used anymore 2021-02-22T13:54:13Z Josh_2: maybe It's foreign-array-free 2021-02-22T13:54:53Z Josh_2: nope 2021-02-22T13:54:54Z Nilby: with-pointer-to-vector-data is not without problems, because to be safe on has to not have garbage collection happen while C is using it 2021-02-22T13:55:07Z Josh_2: ah 2021-02-22T13:55:48Z Josh_2: is there a safer alternative? 2021-02-22T13:56:09Z Josh_2: with-pointer-to-vector-data performs perfectly and I get the expected result I just can't free the pointer 2021-02-22T13:56:32Z Nilby: yes, becase with-* allocates copies 2021-02-22T13:57:35Z Josh_2: so what do I do? 2021-02-22T13:57:47Z Nilby: oh 2021-02-22T13:58:02Z Nilby: i mean you can't free it, because it belong to lisp 2021-02-22T13:58:50Z Josh_2: oh 2021-02-22T13:59:03Z Josh_2: well that makes things easier I suppose 2021-02-22T13:59:21Z Josh_2: it'll just get garbage collected when I'm done with it? 2021-02-22T13:59:37Z Nilby: with-pointer-to-vector-data is just giving the lisp pointer to C code. with-foreign-string , with-foregin-object, etc. allocates and frees non-gc memory so it's safer 2021-02-22T14:00:12Z Nilby: with-pointer-to-vector-data is kind of a hack to make things fast, and zero copy when you know it's safe to do 2021-02-22T14:00:30Z Josh_2: huh 2021-02-22T14:00:36Z Nilby: yes 2021-02-22T14:01:12Z Nilby: it should be the just a pointer to memory lisp uses for the vector 2021-02-22T14:01:15Z Josh_2: well if I'm within the body of (with-pointer-to-vector-data .. it won't garbage collect the buffer will it? 2021-02-22T14:01:21Z Nilby: it should be gc as usual 2021-02-22T14:02:14Z Nilby: perhaps, as long as long as you stay in C code, and gc doesn't happen from another thread or something 2021-02-22T14:02:47Z Josh_2: Well I'll just stick with it then 2021-02-22T14:02:52Z Josh_2: Thanks 2021-02-22T14:05:11Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-22T14:05:29Z Nilby: You're welcome, I've probably done too much with CFFI for my own good. The problems with with-pointer-to-vector-data is probably why it isn't mentioned in the manual. 2021-02-22T14:06:09Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-22T14:06:14Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-22T14:06:34Z Josh_2: Well I really appreciate the help, you have been a life saver 2021-02-22T14:06:46Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-22T14:07:02Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-02-22T14:07:26Z thonkpod quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-22T14:08:47Z Nilby: It seems like maybe I helped you make more powerful bugs (: 2021-02-22T14:09:51Z thonkpod joined #lisp 2021-02-22T14:12:46Z francogrex joined #lisp 2021-02-22T14:14:45Z Josh_2: haha yes 2021-02-22T14:15:03Z Josh_2: fixing one problem and finding a new 2021-02-22T14:15:58Z Josh_2: seems to be working properly now tho 2021-02-22T14:16:30Z Nilby: Cool. 2021-02-22T14:16:46Z Nilby: Lisp by itself is usually pretty safe, but With proper application of CFFI and other CL things I've managed to make Lisp crash itself, the window it's in, the window system, the OS, and even make the hardware overheat and break. 2021-02-22T14:18:35Z Josh_2: oh yikes 2021-02-22T14:18:39Z contrapunctus: lol 2021-02-22T14:20:22Z Josh_2: how do I convert a :uint32 pointer back to an integer? 2021-02-22T14:22:41Z Nilby: It should usually convert automaticlly, but if it doesn't you can use cffi:translate-from-foreign 2021-02-22T14:22:42Z francogrex: anyone here reading this has experience with sbcl VOP? 2021-02-22T14:28:03Z heisig: francogrex: Yes, I have used VOPs a few times. 2021-02-22T14:28:04Z minion: heisig, memo from flip214_: DANKE!!! 2021-02-22T14:29:59Z Josh_2: well the C function takes an argument of type uint32_t *, so I (foreign-alloc :uint32) as pass that, but it isn't being converted back to a nice integer 2021-02-22T14:31:53Z Nilby: Josh_2: Ah, I guess you would normally convert that with mem-ref then 2021-02-22T14:31:54Z Josh_2: oh maybe I should try mem-aref 2021-02-22T14:32:12Z Nilby: or mem-aref if it's an array 2021-02-22T14:32:22Z Josh_2: lemme see 2021-02-22T14:32:30Z francogrex: heisig: ok I suppose it was more trial and error (because I haven't seen any sort of comprehensive manual) yet 2021-02-22T14:33:32Z Josh_2: yep, mem-aref worked 2021-02-22T14:36:02Z jlarocco quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-22T14:39:36Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-02-22T14:42:22Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-22T14:42:42Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-02-22T14:43:39Z Josh_2: Now I just have to figure out why when I encrypt "test" and then decrypt it i get "test ... " followed by a bunch of random characters like #\Return 2021-02-22T14:43:45Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-22T14:44:27Z Bike: sounds like you're reading out of bounds 2021-02-22T14:46:33Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-22T14:47:10Z Nilby: Josh_2: Maybe there's a uint8 zero before those which C thinks should stop you, but Lisp is like whatever. 2021-02-22T14:50:07Z Josh_2: I got it 2021-02-22T14:50:14Z Josh_2: I was reading out of bounds like Bike said 2021-02-22T14:53:11Z lottaquestions_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-22T14:54:39Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-22T14:59:13Z villanella1 joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:00:16Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-22T15:01:16Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-22T15:06:23Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-22T15:07:59Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:08:38Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:08:58Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-22T15:09:02Z choegusung quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-22T15:11:23Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:11:57Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-22T15:14:21Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:15:02Z villanella1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-22T15:16:22Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:17:55Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-22T15:20:13Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:21:06Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-22T15:29:11Z ailrk quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-22T15:29:53Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:30:37Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:30:44Z villanella quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-22T15:31:31Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-22T15:33:33Z francogrex quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-22T15:33:40Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:33:44Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:38:22Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-22T15:44:39Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:48:02Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:53:05Z cognemo quit (Quit: cognemo) 2021-02-22T15:53:20Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-02-22T15:57:54Z admich joined #lisp 2021-02-22T16:00:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-22T16:04:36Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-22T16:17:30Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2021-02-22T16:29:16Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 2021-02-22T16:32:52Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-22T16:33:10Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-22T16:33:24Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-22T16:34:32Z ym joined #lisp 2021-02-22T16:34:37Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-22T16:37:11Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-22T16:55:47Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-22T16:56:10Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-02-22T16:59:16Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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So that so when someone does a quicklisp load of my project it runs a git command to git clone a JS component? 2021-02-22T19:03:25Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-22T19:03:29Z dbotton: Or some other more official way? 2021-02-22T19:03:32Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-22T19:03:37Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-22T19:03:39Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-22T19:03:44Z shinohai: dbotton: Can't use uiop ? 2021-02-22T19:04:19Z dbotton: I guess can, can check if present and if not run uiop 2021-02-22T19:04:54Z shinohai admits to abusing uiop-run-program quite often .... 2021-02-22T19:05:46Z dbotton: But is there an official method for projects to execute things when compiling? 2021-02-22T19:10:16Z _death: dbotton: see https://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#The-object-model-of-ASDF 2021-02-22T19:11:09Z Alfr_: dbotton, how about don't? It will break compiling in sandboxed environments. 2021-02-22T19:11:13Z pfdietz: I see some LZW compression algorithms in QL, but is there one by itself intended for general use? 2021-02-22T19:11:47Z pfdietz: Xach: you wrote on in skippy, but it doesn't appear to be part of the exported interface of that system. 2021-02-22T19:11:54Z pfdietz: one 2021-02-22T19:12:09Z Xach: pfdietz: i did 2021-02-22T19:12:53Z Alfr_: dbotton, could you declare a dependency on that component in the readme instead of trying to retrieve it on every load-system? 2021-02-22T19:14:37Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-22T19:15:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-22T19:15:53Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-22T19:17:06Z _death: could use git-submodules/subtree or a makefile 2021-02-22T19:17:35Z Xach: The simplest thing (on a certain axis) is to include all the things you need up front. 2021-02-22T19:17:52Z Xach: This has an advantage of working when make, git, etc are not present. 2021-02-22T19:19:07Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-22T19:20:56Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-22T19:21:07Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-02-22T19:21:13Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-22T19:22:52Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-22T19:23:21Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-02-22T19:25:37Z Xach: pfdietz: are you interested in a standalone library for lzw for something in particular? 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Any suggestion on getting started with the minimal amount of assembly, so i can enjoy LOL more? :-) thanks! 2021-02-23T01:27:20Z pfdietz: Xach: yes, a standalone library for LZW.  The use case is compressive similarity of strings. 2021-02-23T01:28:23Z pfdietz: That is, you can estimate how similar two strings are by knowing how much compressing one helps you compress the other. 2021-02-23T01:29:06Z pfdietz: (other compression algorithms would also be interesting, but LZW is simple) 2021-02-23T01:29:09Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-23T01:29:22Z hydan quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-23T01:34:16Z Xach: hmm 2021-02-23T01:35:15Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T01:35:19Z notzmv quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-02-23T01:35:29Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-02-23T01:45:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T01:47:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-23T01:57:11Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-23T02:00:42Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T02:00:58Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T02:06:30Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-23T02:06:45Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-23T02:06:58Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-23T02:15:37Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-02-23T02:23:08Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Or is there a better way? 2021-02-23T03:07:42Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-23T03:07:50Z zooey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T03:08:12Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-02-23T03:09:33Z Alfr_: Nilby, and maybe use package-local-nicknames? 2021-02-23T03:13:04Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-23T03:13:09Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-23T03:13:26Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-23T03:14:12Z Nilby: I like package-local-nicknames, but it seems I still have rename every existing package to have those long names. 2021-02-23T03:35:00Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-02-23T03:38:52Z ldb joined #lisp 2021-02-23T03:39:05Z ldb: good morning 2021-02-23T03:40:31Z ldb: Nilby: I think it is supposed that while the package author gives a long name, a nickname should also be given 2021-02-23T03:44:32Z azrazalea: I know i've done this before but i'm blanking on how. I want to create a macro that defines a new class then stores some extra metadata on the class definition symbol (not on the instance). Essentially extra named documentation. Then later retrieve that metadata elsewhere in my program. It's been too long, can someone point me to the docs I need to review for this? I'm struggling to find it. 2021-02-23T03:46:53Z Nilby: ldb: Hmmm. I guess one can suggest a package-local-nickname in documentation. But a regular nickname can't clash either. 2021-02-23T03:47:07Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-23T03:47:21Z ldb: azrazalea: do you mean use (SETF GET) & GET for store & retrive metadata? 2021-02-23T03:48:17Z azrazalea: ldb: Once I have the symbol yes, but classes are in a different symbol namespace right? Sorry if terms are wrong, it has been a couple years 2021-02-23T03:48:33Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-23T03:49:46Z Nilby: azrazalea: You could always look up the extra doc in a hash table of the class name symbols. Otherwise you might have to do something more complicated like subclassing standard-object. 2021-02-23T03:50:03Z ldb: azrazalea: classes names are still symbols, so they can be used for GET 2021-02-23T03:51:21Z ldb: when you have an actual class object, you can get its name symbol by CLASS-NAME 2021-02-23T03:51:44Z ldb: and FIND-CLASS is the inverse function 2021-02-23T03:57:06Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-02-23T03:58:22Z Nilby: I always forget about symbol-plists. It's even easier than the hash table way: (setf (get 'boo :extra-doc) "This is cool.") (get 'boo :extra-doc) 2021-02-23T03:58:55Z azrazalea: Yeah, that's what I'm aiming for but I'm missing something to get the symbol for the class definition and it's probably something obvious lol 2021-02-23T03:59:05Z karstensrage joined #lisp 2021-02-23T04:00:02Z azrazalea: Or it is working and I just don't think it is 2021-02-23T04:00:54Z Nilby: Like ldb said, class-name, and also class-of can help. 2021-02-23T04:01:04Z prxq_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-23T04:01:48Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T04:03:01Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-23T04:03:24Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-23T04:03:38Z ldb: hello beach 2021-02-23T04:04:05Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-23T04:05:07Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T04:05:16Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T04:05:23Z azrazalea: ldb: Cool, yeah it was working and I just didn't think it was. 2021-02-23T04:08:21Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-23T04:10:04Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-23T04:16:25Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-23T04:17:54Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-02-23T04:17:59Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-23T04:23:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-23T04:24:34Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-23T04:25:09Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-23T04:27:16Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T04:37:43Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T04:41:56Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-23T04:42:42Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-23T04:42:43Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-23T04:44:49Z ppbitb joined #lisp 2021-02-23T04:45:38Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T05:01:08Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-23T05:03:02Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-23T05:18:03Z ppbitb left #lisp 2021-02-23T05:25:06Z cchristiansen quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-02-23T05:26:01Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-23T05:27:12Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-23T05:34:27Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-02-23T05:38:10Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-23T05:39:45Z thmprover quit (Quit: This parting was well made) 2021-02-23T05:45:24Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-23T05:53:33Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-02-23T05:55:29Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-23T05:55:41Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:02:23Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-23T06:05:18Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:06:21Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-23T06:10:02Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:10:08Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:11:52Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-23T06:12:02Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:15:43Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T06:15:53Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:18:39Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:19:38Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-23T06:20:38Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T06:22:01Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-23T06:22:14Z asarch: (setf value (or (foo) "Not defined")) <- How can I test (foo) in order that, if "" then the value would be "Not defined"? 2021-02-23T06:22:56Z bilegeek__ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:24:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:25:50Z bilegeek_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-23T06:26:00Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T06:30:11Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-23T06:31:00Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-23T06:31:21Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:31:51Z Nilby: How about (let ((foo (foo))) (if (or (null foo) (zerop (length foo))) "Not defined" foo)) 2021-02-23T06:34:05Z asarch: (if (string/= "" (foo)) foo "Not defined") 2021-02-23T06:37:40Z asarch: (or (when (zerop (length (foo))) "Not defined") (foo)) 2021-02-23T06:38:43Z asarch: Using your predicates 2021-02-23T06:39:00Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:40:50Z Nilby: If you don't mind calling (foo) twice, you can just say: (if (zerop (length (foo))) "Not defined" (foo)) 2021-02-23T06:41:58Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:42:47Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T06:45:46Z Nilby: 🆑🏌 2021-02-23T06:47:08Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:47:40Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:49:34Z bilegeek__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-23T06:52:05Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T06:52:19Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-02-23T06:53:34Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:00:39Z asarch: Touché! 2021-02-23T07:05:23Z azrazalea: I feel like such a beginner again after so long. So I got my whole metadata thing working and everything but now I'm getting an error on my generic function call where it says that there isn't a method specializing with the arguments given but as far as I can tell there is! See sly debug screenshots here: https://imgur.com/a/WZ3PAyA. I am confused. My guess is I'm doing something wrong with how I have my packages setup. 2021-02-23T07:06:44Z azrazalea: https://gitlab.com/azrazalea/lair-bot/-/tree/commands-refactor is the code, specifically https://gitlab.com/azrazalea/lair-bot/-/blob/commands-refactor/src/main.lisp#L118 for the function call, and https://gitlab.com/azrazalea/lair-bot/-/blob/commands-refactor/src/commands/ping.lisp#L12 for the implementation 2021-02-23T07:08:16Z Nilby: azrazalea: I don't see the 4th arg which looks like it should be a string. 2021-02-23T07:09:03Z Nilby: I sometimes still feel like a beginner after more the 20 years. 2021-02-23T07:09:32Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-23T07:09:38Z azrazalea: Unless I'm reading the output wrong, in the sly debug screenshots the 4th arg is "ping" but it has it on the same line as the 3rd arg 2021-02-23T07:09:45Z Nilby: whoops there's the string in the 2nd screenshot 2021-02-23T07:10:24Z Nilby: assuming that's inspecting args 2021-02-23T07:10:57Z azrazalea: The second half of the second screenshot is the specialization list for the method I am trying to call 2021-02-23T07:11:09Z azrazalea: With the first half being the actual arguments given 2021-02-23T07:11:26Z azrazalea: And they seem to match to my eye, hence confused 2021-02-23T07:11:57Z azrazalea: My best guess is I somehow have my packages messed up to where my function call isn't "seeing" the defined methods properly 2021-02-23T07:13:22Z Nilby: It does like like the proper args. 2021-02-23T07:16:26Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:16:43Z beach: azrazalea: If you inspect your generic function, you can see what methods it has. 2021-02-23T07:17:21Z Nilby: He did that in the screenshot :) 2021-02-23T07:17:26Z azrazalea: She but yes <3 2021-02-23T07:17:37Z Nilby: sorry :O 2021-02-23T07:17:58Z beach: Ah, OK. Then the existing methods should be clear. 2021-02-23T07:18:29Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T07:18:34Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:19:02Z Nilby: It seems correct, so maybe the types got out of sync due to dependencies? Does a re-load of the whole thing help? 2021-02-23T07:19:03Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:22:57Z Nilby: I'm not really familiar with defmethod*, but could it be somehow specializing on the :void return value? 2021-02-23T07:23:31Z azrazalea: Yeah, I should probably remove defstar as a potential issue let me try that (and I did reload everything a couple times) 2021-02-23T07:24:43Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:26:28Z azrazalea: Oh oh, I know my issue I think 2021-02-23T07:27:09Z azrazalea: I'm passing the class definition object of my command, not an instance of my command. Duh. Sleepy me 2021-02-23T07:28:14Z Nilby: Ah that makes sense. I missed that in the stack trace. 2021-02-23T07:28:20Z azrazalea: Saaame 2021-02-23T07:28:42Z azrazalea: I did eventually find it that way though (it works now) 2021-02-23T07:28:48Z Nilby: Cool :) 2021-02-23T07:30:44Z remexre quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-23T07:32:20Z Nilby: Sometimes I wish every project would list the flattened indirect dependencies. It's good to know before you quickload. 2021-02-23T07:32:45Z harovali` joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:32:47Z remexre joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:32:59Z loskutak joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:33:16Z azrazalea: Nilby: Yas, that's why I did that! 2021-02-23T07:33:20Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:33:28Z azrazalea: speaking of, I need to check if closer-mop added any. I don't think it did 2021-02-23T07:33:58Z luni quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-23T07:34:39Z Nilby: Nice. It took me writing a dependency viewer before I could figure that out for myself. 2021-02-23T07:34:39Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-02-23T07:34:46Z azrazalea: Yeah, as expected closer-mop doesn't have any dependencies awesome. 2021-02-23T07:35:02Z azrazalea: I used (remove-duplicates (mapcar #'ql-dist:short-description (flatten (append (ql-dist:dependency-tree :lispcord) (ql-dist:dependency-tree :str) (ql-dist:dependency-tree :local-time) (ql-dist:dependency-tree :defstar) (ql-dist:dependency-tree :iterate))))) 2021-02-23T07:35:25Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T07:36:25Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-23T07:37:26Z azrazalea: It is one of those things that I technically did for myself but then put in the readme because it is also useful for users. 2021-02-23T07:37:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:37:43Z Nilby: I guess I didn't know about ql-dist:dependency-tree. Thanks, that makes it easier. 2021-02-23T07:39:18Z azrazalea: Sadly it works through quicklisp not asdf so unless your project is on quicklisp you have to do it like I did above 2021-02-23T07:40:01Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-23T07:41:31Z Nilby: Oh, right. My things aren't in quicklisp. 2021-02-23T07:46:50Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:51:45Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:52:49Z fiddlerwoaroof_: What's the "right way" to set the FDEFINITION of a symbol to a funcallable-standard-object? 2021-02-23T07:53:26Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:54:15Z beach: It is no different from any other function. 2021-02-23T07:54:54Z beach: (setf (fdefinition ) ) 2021-02-23T07:55:14Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I guess I don't understand how a macro like DEFGENERIC should be implemented, though: when does the equivalent of that SETF happen? 2021-02-23T07:55:50Z beach: DEFGENERIC expands to ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION. 2021-02-23T07:55:58Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-23T07:56:06Z beach: clhs ensure-generic-function 2021-02-23T07:56:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ensure.htm 2021-02-23T07:56:33Z beach: ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION checks whether the name is already defined as a generic function. 2021-02-23T07:56:46Z beach: If it is, it might redefine the existing object. 2021-02-23T07:56:59Z beach: Otherwise, it creates the generic function and calls FDEFINITION. 2021-02-23T07:57:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-23T07:57:08Z beach: Er, (SETF FDEFINITION) I mean. 2021-02-23T07:57:56Z beach: What part is it that you are having problems with? 2021-02-23T07:59:33Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Well, I have code that works, but I'm not sure if I'm thinking through all the consequences correctly: e.g. making the function available at the time you expect function names to be in scope. 2021-02-23T08:00:37Z beach: In scope? Generic functions are named only in the global environment. 2021-02-23T08:01:15Z beach: There is an issue between the compilation environment and the run-time environment, though, if that is what you are referring to. 2021-02-23T08:01:39Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T08:03:32Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Well, the problem I actually have is that I've been experimenting with defining my own subclass of FUNCALLABLE-STANDARD-OBJECT, and I'm trying to figure out what I need to think about 2021-02-23T08:04:01Z Nilby: It can sure be an issue if, like me, you tried to use a generic function in a macro in the file it's defined in. But ensure-generic-function can come to the rescue. 2021-02-23T08:04:02Z beach: I do that all the time. There is nothing particular you need to think about. 2021-02-23T08:05:06Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof_: At any point in time, you can call (SETF FDEFINITION) to have the name associated with your object. 2021-02-23T08:05:40Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-02-23T08:05:49Z beach: At some later point, you can call SET-FUNCALLABLE-INSTANCE-FUNCTION. 2021-02-23T08:06:03Z beach: mop set-funcallable-instance-function 2021-02-23T08:06:03Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/set-funcallable-instance-function.html 2021-02-23T08:06:47Z kpoeck: ansi test question: After I import an uninterned symbol x into a package y, is then the home-package of that symbol x package y? Is this specified somewhere in the clhs? Example in https://gist.github.com/kpoeck/430733f4774cde892166e45855e68dc4 2021-02-23T08:07:12Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof_: But SET-FUNCALLABLE-INSTANCE-FUNCTION does not alter the binding of the name to your object in any way. 2021-02-23T08:07:34Z beach: kpoeck: I believe it is specified like that, yes. 2021-02-23T08:07:56Z beach: Er, wait, you said "import". 2021-02-23T08:08:00Z beach: Hold on... 2021-02-23T08:10:15Z beach: kpoeck: I see no reason why it should have it's package altered. 2021-02-23T08:10:15Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-23T08:11:29Z sxmx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T08:11:40Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-02-23T08:12:45Z kpoeck: ok, thanx 2021-02-23T08:12:45Z beach: SBCL alters the package though. 2021-02-23T08:12:59Z kpoeck: ecl as well, but clasp not 2021-02-23T08:13:16Z kpoeck: I wandered whether I should change clasp as well 2021-02-23T08:13:27Z kpoeck: But can't find it in the spec 2021-02-23T08:13:42Z beach: Me neither. 2021-02-23T08:13:56Z kpoeck: ok 2021-02-23T08:14:10Z kpoeck quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-23T08:15:21Z fiddlerwoaroof_ is now known as fiddlerwoaroof 2021-02-23T08:15:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks, beach 2021-02-23T08:19:24Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-23T08:20:22Z cchristiansen quit (Read error: No route to host) 2021-02-23T08:24:10Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-23T08:24:36Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-23T08:25:07Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-23T08:25:45Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T08:26:38Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-23T08:27:49Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-02-23T08:30:17Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-23T08:31:10Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-23T08:31:47Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-23T08:32:00Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-23T08:32:50Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-23T08:33:16Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T08:33:35Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-23T08:36:42Z Alfr: beach, IMPORT is specified to set the home package of the symbol, if it doesn't have one. 2021-02-23T08:36:57Z beach: Where does it say that? 2021-02-23T08:37:20Z beach: I know that's true for INTERN, but I didn't see it for IMPORT. 2021-02-23T08:37:29Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-23T08:37:54Z Alfr: beach, third paragraph, last sentence of its description. 2021-02-23T08:38:47Z beach: Oh, right you are. I must have missed it. 2021-02-23T08:38:53Z Alfr: Pleasure. 2021-02-23T08:39:00Z beach: Thanks! 2021-02-23T08:39:25Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-23T08:39:34Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T08:39:59Z beach: ::notify kpoeck it does say so on the IMPORT page. I missed it somehow. 2021-02-23T08:40:00Z Colleen: beach: Got it. 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No? 2021-02-23T16:10:22Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:11:28Z Josh_2: Yes here https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm/blob/master/docs/megolm.md 2021-02-23T16:11:59Z beach: Anyway, I'll drop the subject now. I wish you good luck. 2021-02-23T16:12:10Z Josh_2: Thanks :) 2021-02-23T16:12:35Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T16:13:30Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T16:13:42Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-23T16:14:00Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:14:31Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:14:35Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:15:26Z villanella1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T16:16:16Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T16:16:45Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:17:44Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-23T16:17:55Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-23T16:18:03Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-23T16:23:24Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:24:19Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-23T16:25:32Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:26:40Z Josh_2: How can I generate an invalid unicode character? 2021-02-23T16:26:59Z attila_lendvai: Josh_2, there'scffi/c2ffi that can do that for you automatically 2021-02-23T16:27:24Z attila_lendvai needs to go 2021-02-23T16:27:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-23T16:27:58Z lisp-machine: Is it acceptable practice to bundle other programs inside my program? I would do it for stability and ease of installation. I.E., include pacapt for easy installation of dependencies. 2021-02-23T16:29:06Z lisp-machine: I'm thinking of writing an app that would need sbcl and buildapp, but I want to provide as easy installation as possible, hence the idea of putting a local copy of pacapt in my project. 2021-02-23T16:33:49Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-23T16:35:18Z warweasle: Is there a quicklisp project generator? Using trivial-project failed because of a missing file. 2021-02-23T16:36:26Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-23T16:39:20Z Josh_2: warweasle: quick-project 2021-02-23T16:39:41Z Josh_2: quickproject* 2021-02-23T16:41:46Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-23T16:44:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:45:42Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:54:19Z marcoxa joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:54:26Z marcoxa: Hi there... 2021-02-23T16:55:29Z kevingal: @lisp-machine: I don't see why not, as long as the license of the program permits it. 2021-02-23T16:56:48Z warweasle: Josh_2: Thank you! 2021-02-23T16:58:27Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-23T16:58:37Z warweasle: Josh_2: Dumb question: How do I add my local project to quicklisp so I can just call (ql:quickload :weasle)? 2021-02-23T16:58:53Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:59:00Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:59:07Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-23T16:59:35Z kevingal: @warweasle: there's a folder where you've installed quicklisp called local-projects, you can create a link to your project there. 2021-02-23T16:59:38Z Josh_2: ^ 2021-02-23T16:59:48Z warweasle: OH...yeah. I vaguely remember that. 2021-02-23T17:00:15Z Josh_2: Yes, you can just use a symlink to wherever and Quicklisp will recurse through the directories 2021-02-23T17:00:47Z kevingal: I always forget the order of the arguments to create a soft link...but it should be something like 'ln -s /path/to/your/project /path/to/quicklisp/local-projects/'. 2021-02-23T17:02:25Z kevingal: (Assumed you're using Linux, sorry :D). 2021-02-23T17:02:40Z arpunk joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:03:16Z warweasle: I've missed lisp. 2021-02-23T17:03:55Z kevingal: What have you been using during your lisp hiatus? 2021-02-23T17:05:08Z marcoxa: I have a related question. I want to fool around with a system 2021-02-23T17:05:08Z marcoxa: (bordeaux-threads, for you to know) and I just want to keep it on a 2021-02-23T17:05:08Z marcoxa: sepearate sandbox from quicklisp. By manually loading the ASD file, I'd 2021-02-23T17:05:08Z marcoxa: expect ASDF to find the system in the sandobox, but instead, ASDF keep 2021-02-23T17:05:11Z marcoxa: searching the quicklisp location first (thus finding the "regular" BT). 2021-02-23T17:05:45Z marcoxa: What incantations do I have to make to force ASDF to load the 2021-02-23T17:05:45Z marcoxa: correct system? 2021-02-23T17:06:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-23T17:06:10Z rogersm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-23T17:06:11Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:06:57Z warweasle: kevingal: C/C++, Javascript, Perl, Blueprints. 2021-02-23T17:07:04Z marcoxa: @kevingal you can make symlinks in Windows (at least W10) as well. 2021-02-23T17:07:40Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T17:07:59Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:09:01Z ym joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:09:26Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:10:05Z fe[nl]ix: marcoxa: ASDF's load order is fixed and it doesn't distinguish between manually loaded systems and the ones found in the search path 2021-02-23T17:10:37Z Josh_2: marcoxa: you can just put your version in local-projects and that will be prioritized by quicklisp when you load it 2021-02-23T17:11:11Z kevingal: I was gonna suggest that, but might catch you out if you forget to remove it from local-projects when you're done. 2021-02-23T17:11:16Z Josh_2: ^^^ 2021-02-23T17:15:08Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T17:16:40Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:18:45Z warweasle: What's the popular linear algebra library now? 2021-02-23T17:20:03Z ym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T17:20:59Z ym joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:22:49Z kevingal: I'm aware of this, basically clones the numpy API: https://github.com/numcl/numcl 2021-02-23T17:23:44Z kevingal: I don't know if people use it for Serious Work or if there's an alternative. 2021-02-23T17:24:05Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:26:19Z marcoxa: @kervingal there are alternative. 2021-02-23T17:27:16Z marcoxa: @Josh_2 et al. Don't you love when something forces you to do 2021-02-23T17:27:17Z marcoxa: things in a certain way? 2021-02-23T17:28:07Z kevingal: I'm sure people have written plenty of linear algebra libraries over the past 40-odd years, haha. 2021-02-23T17:28:51Z marcoxa: @kervingal at least two a year. 2021-02-23T17:29:23Z Xach: marcoxa: if asdf can find a system through any other means, it will not load the quicklisp version. 2021-02-23T17:29:41Z _death: I guess magicl is used for Serious Work, though I've not used it myself (but then, I don't do Serious Work ;) 2021-02-23T17:29:44Z Xach: marcoxa: sometimes there is confusion because people add all of quicklisp's downloaded software to their asdf configuration, which i do not recommend 2021-02-23T17:31:25Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:32:02Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:32:05Z recalloc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T17:34:09Z recalloc joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:35:57Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-23T17:35:58Z marcoxa: @Xach my quicklisp configuration is vanilla and I do not touch 2021-02-23T17:35:59Z marcoxa: the ASDF one at all. IMHO this is a problem with ASDF and not with 2021-02-23T17:35:59Z marcoxa: quicklisp. I.e., I have not done much RTFM about ASDF behavior, but I 2021-02-23T17:35:59Z marcoxa: would expect that if I load a .asd file, the system should record 2021-02-23T17:36:04Z marcoxa: *where" it is loaded from. Of course I am wrong. 2021-02-23T17:37:48Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:38:26Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T17:39:22Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:40:56Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T17:41:30Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:42:58Z eeeeeta quit (Quit: we're here, we're queer, connection reset by peer) 2021-02-23T17:43:05Z Xach: marcoxa: In my experience, if you load an .asd file, it does record where it is loaded from. 2021-02-23T17:43:31Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:43:40Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-23T17:44:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:46:15Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-23T17:47:50Z susam joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:48:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-23T17:49:21Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-23T17:51:14Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T17:53:37Z marcoxa: @Xach that is not what I am seeing in LW. I load a .asd file 2021-02-23T17:53:38Z marcoxa: form directory D (on W10) and when I do a (asdf:load-system 2021-02-23T17:53:38Z marcoxa: :bordeaux-threads) ASDF (ASDF:FIND-SYSTEM) looks in the quicklisp 2021-02-23T17:53:38Z marcoxa: folder. There is obviusly something that is not working; at least in 2021-02-23T17:53:41Z marcoxa: my mental picture... 2021-02-23T17:55:00Z Xach: marcoxa: I hate to get too meta, but your IRC client produces terrible output that is difficult to read. 2021-02-23T17:56:50Z Xach: marcoxa: you are doing something like (cl:load "/d/bordeaux-threads.asd")? 2021-02-23T17:57:00Z marcoxa: It is ERC from Emacs. 2021-02-23T18:00:41Z marcoxa: @Xach almost. I am doing a "Load" from the GUI. But I just tried to do a plain LOAD. Same result. 2021-02-23T18:01:14Z marcoxa: (Sorry, I has auto-fill-mode on). 2021-02-23T18:01:27Z marcoxa: Be back in half an hour. 2021-02-23T18:02:31Z marcoxa: PS I know aboud load-asd 2021-02-23T18:04:16Z lisp-machine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T18:04:24Z eoyath quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-23T18:05:56Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-23T18:15:01Z lisp-machine joined #lisp 2021-02-23T18:19:13Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-23T18:19:46Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-23T18:20:21Z lisp-machine quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-23T18:34:04Z Cthulhux: ERC is known for being terrible. 2021-02-23T18:34:41Z _death: is it? 2021-02-23T18:34:50Z Cthulhux: it is 2021-02-23T18:36:08Z jackdaniel: I for once know it for being terrible :) 2021-02-23T18:36:14Z jackdaniel: for one* 2021-02-23T18:36:42Z charles`: at least it can do nicknames 2021-02-23T18:37:05Z marcoxa: @Xach I just tried loading the .asd file with asdf:load-asd. No luck. Call me obnoxious but I am chaclking this up to a problem with ASDF. 2021-02-23T18:37:06Z Cthulhux: i warmly recommend circe. 2021-02-23T18:39:01Z marcoxa: @Cthulhux Thanks for the hint. I just downloaded it from MELPA; I will give it a spin... 2021-02-23T18:39:16Z Cthulhux: :-) enjoy 2021-02-23T18:39:28Z Cthulhux: #emacs-circe for support. 2021-02-23T18:40:12Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T18:41:09Z edgar-rft: CL is also known for being terrible but that's exactly why I use it even more. 2021-02-23T18:41:54Z charles`: "known for" but certainly is not 2021-02-23T18:42:56Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T18:44:07Z dwts quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-23T18:44:50Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-23T18:45:40Z edgar-rft: charles`: many people I talked to see that as a fact 2021-02-23T18:46:12Z Cthulhux: many people i talked to don't see covid as a fact. 2021-02-23T18:47:01Z edgar-rft: what I wanted to say is: don't care about too much what other people say 2021-02-23T18:48:03Z charles`: edgar-rft: it seems that you care enough to spite them 2021-02-23T18:51:35Z Xach: marcoxa: are you up to try one new thing? 2021-02-23T18:52:57Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-23T18:53:56Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T18:56:31Z marcoxa: @Xach why not? 2021-02-23T18:57:06Z Xach: marcoxa: (asdf:map-systems 'asdf:clear-system) (asdf:load-asd "/path/to/bordeaux-threads.asd") (asdf:system-source-file "bordeaux-threads") 2021-02-23T18:57:19Z Xach: marcoxa: i am curious what happens if you try those three forms 2021-02-23T18:58:39Z marcoxa: I am starting a fresh image. Note that I di do a quickload of BT in the past, so I have it in the QL installation. Stay tuned. 2021-02-23T19:03:09Z marcoxa: The first form returned NIL. 2021-02-23T19:04:18Z marcoxa: The second form looked into the quicklisp folders and loaded the system from there. 2021-02-23T19:04:40Z Xach: marcoxa: ???? asdf:load-asd did that?? 2021-02-23T19:04:46Z Xach: that is extremely unexpected 2021-02-23T19:04:53Z marcoxa: The third form returned tha path to the ASD file in the quicklisp folder. 2021-02-23T19:05:11Z marcoxa: Yes. That it unexpected. 2021-02-23T19:05:16Z jackdaniel: and what does (truename "/path/to/bordeaus-threads.asd") return? 2021-02-23T19:05:31Z Xach: marcoxa: can you share a transcript? 2021-02-23T19:06:11Z sunset_NOVA joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:06:16Z marcoxa: @jackdaniel truename does TRT. 2021-02-23T19:06:34Z jackdaniel: trt? 2021-02-23T19:06:39Z Xach: jackdaniel: the right thing 2021-02-23T19:06:42Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:06:43Z jackdaniel: ah, thanks 2021-02-23T19:06:59Z marcoxa: Where do you want a transcript? I suppose there ia a pastebin somewhere? 2021-02-23T19:07:12Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-23T19:07:17Z jackdaniel: marcoxa: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/edit# 2021-02-23T19:07:21Z Xach: marcoxa: yes. 2021-02-23T19:07:50Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:09:24Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:10:51Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T19:11:19Z marcoxa: How does the pastebin work? What does "unscramble the word mean"? 2021-02-23T19:11:29Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:11:43Z jackdaniel: it there is written "smoe" it expects you to write english word "some" 2021-02-23T19:12:15Z jackdaniel: "tagnible" -> "tangible" etc 2021-02-23T19:13:23Z marcoxa: Ok. I figured out. The transcript is there. I am ready to chalk it up to an ASDF problem. 2021-02-23T19:13:53Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:14:23Z jackdaniel: you may want to share a link! 2021-02-23T19:14:24Z marcoxa: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2313#2313 2021-02-23T19:14:29Z jackdaniel: :) 2021-02-23T19:15:46Z _death: asdf:load-asd is nasty 2021-02-23T19:16:03Z jackdaniel: "loading text file" ? 2021-02-23T19:16:15Z jackdaniel: should it say "loading system definition"? 2021-02-23T19:16:20Z jackdaniel: shouldn't* 2021-02-23T19:17:00Z Xach: jackdaniel: i wonder if that is an artifact of CL:LOAD or something 2021-02-23T19:17:23Z Xach: marcoxa: thanks for sharing 2021-02-23T19:19:28Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella) 2021-02-23T19:20:09Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:20:13Z jackdaniel: sounds like asdf-clisp-esque 2021-02-23T19:21:52Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:24:10Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-23T19:26:32Z sunset_NOVA quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-23T19:26:57Z _death: I think it's lispworks load 2021-02-23T19:29:45Z marcoxa: I believe the problem is the shenanigans that ASDF does, as it does not seem to change if I just CL:LOAD. Basically, it seems that it finds the system form and then it forgets that it found it there. 2021-02-23T19:29:51Z marcoxa: Be back soon. 2021-02-23T19:33:12Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-23T19:34:43Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T19:35:01Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:35:01Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:35:15Z kpoeck joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:35:38Z dwts joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:37:10Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-23T19:38:04Z didi joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:39:41Z didi: Can I loop a list of lisps using a single LOOP --e.g. (loop for x in list for y in x do ...)-- or do I need two LOOPs --e.g. (loop for x in list do (loop for y in x do ...))? 2021-02-23T19:39:53Z Bike: two loops. 2021-02-23T19:39:57Z didi: Bike: Thank you. 2021-02-23T19:42:01Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:44:54Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T19:48:32Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:57:03Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T19:57:42Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-23T19:58:07Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-23T19:58:30Z dwts quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-23T20:01:19Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:05:34Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:05:35Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:05:55Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:11:43Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-23T20:14:16Z loskutak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T20:15:32Z warweasle quit (Quit: later) 2021-02-23T20:16:33Z kpoeck quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-23T20:19:52Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T20:22:42Z eoyath joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:23:27Z Inline__ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:23:43Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-23T20:24:37Z rogersm_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-23T20:24:43Z marcoxa: @_death Probably asdf:load-asd is doing something funky, but then again I do not think that's the problem. I tried in fresh LW instance changing the ASDF:LOAD-ASD with CL:LOAD in the sequence of operations. Same result. The only difference appears to be *when* the FIND-SYSTEM takes place. But the result is always wrong. I'd wager the problem is in FIND-SYSTEM. 2021-02-23T20:25:47Z Xach: Does anyone happen to remember chapter and verse of where the ";;;;" ";;;" ";;" ";" comment convention is described? Is it in the CLHS? Or only CLtL2? Or somewhere else? 2021-02-23T20:26:13Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:26:17Z Xach: Ah, 2.4.4.2 2021-02-23T20:30:02Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:30:23Z Inline__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-23T20:31:26Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-23T20:33:01Z _death: marcoxa: I'd just (push #p"/path/to/bordeaux-threads/" asdf:*central-registry*) and quickload, if it's temporary 2021-02-23T20:33:59Z frgo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-23T20:34:54Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-23T20:35:03Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:35:32Z _death: marcoxa: well, actually I'd not do that.. I'd use the git repo of bordeaux-threads without quicklisp dist versions.. and switch branches 2021-02-23T20:36:48Z _death: marcoxa: because having two copies of the same system can lead to confusing states 2021-02-23T20:40:56Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T20:42:48Z dwts joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:42:49Z Tordek joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:48:12Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T20:53:18Z marcoxa: @_death that's what I did. I ql:uninstall BT and then loaded the plain .asd from my non-ql version. In any case, this is a problem with FIND-SYSTEM and the time it looks for systems. I may be old and quaint, but myself and madhu fixed a very similar problem with mk:defsystem a long time a go. 2021-02-23T20:54:23Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:54:30Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-23T20:54:46Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-23T20:55:36Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:57:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T20:57:24Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-23T20:58:36Z dwts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T20:59:23Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T20:59:45Z surabax_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T20:59:54Z banjiewen__ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-23T21:00:16Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T21:00:54Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-23T21:02:26Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-23T21:02:36Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T21:02:36Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T21:02:53Z banjiewen__ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T21:03:16Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T21:04:07Z sz0 joined #lisp 2021-02-23T21:07:52Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T21:07:53Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-23T21:07:58Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-23T21:10:48Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T21:13:34Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-23T21:14:47Z jasom: didi: Just anticipating a question, if you need to collect into a single list while looping over such a thing you want (loop for x in list nconc (loop for y in x collect ...))) 2021-02-23T21:15:11Z didi: jasom: Nice. Thank you. 2021-02-23T21:16:05Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-23T21:16:24Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-23T21:17:08Z jasom: marcoxa: I think if you have a system in your search path and manually load a different one, it will still go for the system in your search path. 2021-02-23T21:17:18Z jasom: marcoxa: as in, I think that's the expected behavior 2021-02-23T21:21:15Z jasom: and as _death says, the simplest way to preempt the default search behavior is to add paths to asdf:*central-registry* 2021-02-23T21:24:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-23T21:31:44Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T21:31:44Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-23T21:33:21Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-02-23T21:33:28Z surabax_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-23T21:34:39Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-23T21:35:17Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-23T21:36:25Z nij joined #lisp 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2021-02-23T23:16:13Z aeth: The internet is probably like 99.999% spam. That you can mostly avoid spam is a miracle, but sometimes spam slips through the cracks of a system. 2021-02-23T23:18:25Z z3t0: This is probably a very basic question... How do I copy file1.txt to file2.txt in commonlisp? I have been using uiop:copy-file but that fails because the target file doesnt exist. I thought about reading the file then writing it as strings but then I also have non string files 2021-02-23T23:18:32Z z3t0: Should I read and write bytes? 2021-02-23T23:19:12Z aeth: it fails because the source file doesn't exist? or the destination? 2021-02-23T23:19:20Z z3t0: the destination file 2021-02-23T23:19:32Z aeth: weird 2021-02-23T23:19:56Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-23T23:20:56Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-02-23T23:21:27Z aeth: z3t0: Maybe you can use uiop:copy-stream-to-stream 2021-02-23T23:22:22Z z3t0: ah it worked! I was missing a "/" in the target path and didnt realise it was writing the file, just in the upper folder 2021-02-23T23:30:19Z aeth: yeah, those things are tricky 2021-02-23T23:30:37Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-23T23:30:49Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-23T23:30:52Z aeth: it's very easy to mess up paths 2021-02-23T23:43:20Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-23T23:51:40Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-02-23T23:52:00Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-23T23:54:24Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Quit: Пока, мир.) 2021-02-23T23:54:29Z Aurora_iz_kosmos joined #lisp 2021-02-23T23:59:34Z beach` joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:01:21Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T00:01:24Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T00:01:56Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-24T00:02:10Z ski quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))) 2021-02-24T00:02:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:02:47Z skapate joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:03:13Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-24T00:04:07Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T00:04:58Z trebor_home quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T00:05:09Z trebor_home joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:06:01Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T00:06:40Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:08:30Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-24T00:09:09Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T00:09:13Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:09:26Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:10:16Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:12:54Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T00:21:22Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T00:21:56Z ski joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:29:34Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T00:31:00Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T00:38:28Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T00:39:53Z froggey joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:40:50Z hhdave joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:41:05Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-24T00:47:50Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-24T00:48:27Z didi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T00:49:58Z loli joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:50:00Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:50:00Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-02-24T00:50:28Z gitgood: hi loli 2021-02-24T00:51:36Z iamFIREc1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T00:53:24Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T00:57:56Z marusich quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-24T00:58:10Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-24T01:00:09Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-24T01:00:36Z Nilby quit (Quit: [deleted]) 2021-02-24T01:00:54Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-02-24T01:00:56Z harovali joined #lisp 2021-02-24T01:18:11Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-24T01:22:02Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T01:38:53Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T01:44:17Z Josh_2: Stuck with CFFI once again 2021-02-24T01:47:14Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-24T01:49:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T01:50:00Z Bike: what's the problem? 2021-02-24T01:50:07Z Bike: or are you typing it up 2021-02-24T01:50:21Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-24T01:51:16Z Josh_2: Yes sorry I am figuring out how/what to ask 2021-02-24T01:51:37Z Josh_2: I had one typed up, double checked and realized the answer 2021-02-24T01:56:41Z matryoshka: Hello gitgood. 2021-02-24T01:57:21Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-24T02:00:31Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-24T02:02:13Z Xach: Josh_2: glad to help 2021-02-24T02:05:12Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T02:05:48Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-24T02:08:11Z eoyath quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-24T02:12:45Z Josh_2: I lead you all on, sorry, I am stuck but I'm totally burned out so I think Im going to go to sleep instead 2021-02-24T02:13:01Z Josh_2: a well slept pair of eyes might figure it out 2021-02-24T02:18:22Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-24T02:25:21Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-24T02:27:46Z notzmv quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-24T02:30:41Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-24T02:37:10Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T02:37:45Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-24T02:37:51Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T02:39:13Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-24T02:44:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T02:45:27Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T02:50:27Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-24T02:52:25Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-24T02:52:57Z dbotton quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T02:52:59Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-24T03:02:50Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T03:06:57Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-02-24T03:08:18Z harovali` joined #lisp 2021-02-24T03:11:36Z harovali quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-24T03:29:45Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-24T03:35:09Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-24T03:55:35Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T03:58:09Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-24T03:59:03Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-24T03:59:36Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T04:02:18Z beach` is now known as beach 2021-02-24T04:02:46Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T04:02:51Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-24T04:03:06Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-24T04:06:27Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-24T04:07:14Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-24T04:17:33Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-24T04:21:40Z ikrabbe joined #lisp 2021-02-24T04:24:16Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T04:28:57Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-24T04:29:12Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-24T04:31:02Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-24T04:31:20Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-02-24T04:32:48Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-24T04:32:55Z aindilis quit (Quit: b) 2021-02-24T04:35:18Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-24T04:35:18Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-24T04:37:21Z thmprover quit (Quit: For Here, I Hope, Begins Our Lasting Joy) 2021-02-24T04:41:56Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-24T04:43:00Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T04:43:01Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-24T04:43:18Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-24T04:44:35Z dorketch joined #lisp 2021-02-24T04:44:53Z dorketch quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T04:45:21Z dorketch joined #lisp 2021-02-24T04:46:37Z dorketch quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T04:50:24Z Sheilong quit 2021-02-24T05:01:17Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Maybe more. 2021-02-24T09:16:02Z drbluefall joined #lisp 2021-02-24T09:18:12Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-24T09:18:13Z nullx002: beach are they implemented anywhere on web? 2021-02-24T09:18:41Z beach: minion: Please tell nullx002 about hunchentoot! 2021-02-24T09:18:43Z minion: hunchentoot: https://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 2021-02-24T09:20:36Z casual_friday quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T09:20:41Z nullx002: thanks / beach 2021-02-24T09:21:23Z beach: nullx002: More generally, have a look at: https://www.cliki.net/Web 2021-02-24T09:26:53Z beach: nullx002: What is the reason for your question? I am asking because you seem to be new here. I don't recognize your nick. 2021-02-24T09:28:28Z nullx002: yes, using bit of lisp and emacslisp for few years, but nothing special. was off the grid for 3 years.. 2021-02-24T09:28:49Z beach: I see. 2021-02-24T09:29:06Z jprajzne quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-24T09:29:29Z nullx002: still only on a mobile device.. 2021-02-24T09:30:11Z ecraven: quite a few lisps (in the generic sense) run on mobile devices 2021-02-24T09:30:23Z nullx002: thinking of running tiny webserver from mobile, just for.. 2021-02-24T09:30:44Z gitgood quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T09:31:38Z nullx002: use Emacs without X on emulator... clisp works well with Emacs plugins as IDE 2021-02-24T09:32:04Z Nilby: my phone can run my whole lisp mini-ecosystem just fine 2021-02-24T09:32:24Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-02-24T09:32:43Z nullx002: Nilby, yes, I use golang too... just learning 2021-02-24T09:33:17Z nullx002: emacs without X on emulator is really fast... 2021-02-24T09:33:54Z nullx002: have to git more often though for webapps 2021-02-24T09:35:05Z nullx002: and tinyscheme too... :) 2021-02-24T09:39:16Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T09:42:08Z landakram quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T09:42:29Z domovod joined #lisp 2021-02-24T09:46:45Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T09:47:48Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-02-24T09:48:32Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-02-24T10:01:10Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-24T10:16:29Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-24T10:16:39Z pyc: how can I get the "CL-USER>" prompt that I see in most documentations. If I run CLISP I get only "[1]>" prompt and SBCL gives me "*" prompt. Where does "CL-USER>" come from? 2021-02-24T10:16:52Z beach: You use SLIME. 2021-02-24T10:17:23Z pyc: beach: and for SLIME, we use Emacs, right? 2021-02-24T10:17:30Z beach: Yes. 2021-02-24T10:17:37Z pyc: thanks 2021-02-24T10:17:43Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-02-24T10:18:53Z beach: pyc: Unless you use something like SLIME, programming in Common Lisp is going to be very painful, and you will be disgusted and abandon it. 2021-02-24T10:19:24Z drbluefall: There *is* also SLY, if you want a second option. 2021-02-24T10:19:40Z beach: Hence "something like". 2021-02-24T10:19:43Z pyc: beach: why is that? I have been writing standalone .lisp files and executing them as "clisp foo.lisp". Seems to work just fine. Not much different from Python or C. 2021-02-24T10:20:03Z beach: I am glad you are not disgusted. I would be. 2021-02-24T10:20:10Z drbluefall: Having a CL REPL at hand in your editor is very handy. 2021-02-24T10:20:25Z beach: pyc: But you are then missing out on pretty much all the advantages of Common Lisp. 2021-02-24T10:20:35Z pyc: beach: can you explain why you would be disgusted? Maybe as a beginner I don't realize why my way of doing Lisp is suboptimal. 2021-02-24T10:21:00Z beach: I guess if you are used to inferior programming languages, you don't know what you are missing. 2021-02-24T10:21:07Z pyc: drbluefall: Which one is more popular between SLIME and SLY? And for what reasons would one recommend SLY over SLIME or vice versa? 2021-02-24T10:21:52Z pyc: beach: can you cite one or two examples or features that elaborates what I am missing. 2021-02-24T10:21:58Z drbluefall: SLIME is more popular, but I mostly use SLY myself. 2021-02-24T10:22:14Z pyc: drbluefall: why do you use SLY? does it offer you something nice that SLIME doesn't? 2021-02-24T10:22:16Z drbluefall: As for which to use... it's personal preference, really. 2021-02-24T10:22:17Z beach: pyc: In Common Lisp, you develop code interactively, one definition at a time. You often compile top-level forms immediately after you type them. 2021-02-24T10:22:39Z beach: pyc: You get function signatures displayed in the minibuffer as you type. 2021-02-24T10:22:55Z drbluefall: I've just found that SLY feels at least a little nicer to use than SLIME 2021-02-24T10:23:04Z beach: pyc: You often switch between the code and the REPL to test a single function after you typed it. 2021-02-24T10:23:14Z carkh: also completion, and most importantly, the debugger 2021-02-24T10:23:20Z pyc: beach: thanks! I will stick to SLIME then. I tried SLIME once briefly but did not know enough to be able to realize its usefulness. 2021-02-24T10:23:21Z beach: pyc: You get help with backtraces and such. 2021-02-24T10:23:53Z beach: pyc: You hit a single keystroke and you get the source code of a stack frame. 2021-02-24T10:24:22Z beach: pyc: I could go on, but I think that's enough to get you started. 2021-02-24T10:24:56Z Nilby: pyc: In CLisp you can set the prompt with the custom:*prompt-.. variables, e.g. (setf custom:*prompt-start* "foo") 2021-02-24T10:26:27Z pyc: beach: yes, thanks. that is convincing enough. i will stick with SLIME and learn it more. 2021-02-24T10:26:45Z beach: Great! Good luck! 2021-02-24T10:26:46Z drbluefall: o7 2021-02-24T10:26:49Z drbluefall: godspeed. 2021-02-24T10:27:42Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-24T10:27:43Z carkh: though i take exception at this "inferior language" business. a tool for each task. 2021-02-24T10:28:07Z drbluefall: ^ 2021-02-24T10:28:19Z drbluefall: All PLs have their purpose 2021-02-24T10:28:31Z beach: That just isn't true. 2021-02-24T10:28:33Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-24T10:28:35Z carkh: except cobol =) 2021-02-24T10:28:43Z drbluefall: Oh yea that. 2021-02-24T10:28:59Z carkh: this isn't true actually 2021-02-24T10:29:00Z beach: Well, I guess it sort of is, if you count realizing a wet dream by an incompetent hacker without training. 2021-02-24T10:29:06Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-24T10:29:08Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-24T10:29:47Z beach: Oh, and convincing incompetent management about what programmers to hire, and what language to use for the next project. 2021-02-24T10:30:18Z carkh: i remember reading a blog post about some company that couldn't get out of cobol because of its outstanding decimal numbers processing 2021-02-24T10:30:37Z carkh: so even cobol has its place it seems 2021-02-24T10:31:26Z drbluefall: Like, say when it comes to web, I will be the first to admit that I will sooner reach for Rust 2021-02-24T10:31:32Z drbluefall: because actix-web 2021-02-24T10:32:06Z beach: That's not a purpose of Rust. It is a tool that happens to be available. 2021-02-24T10:32:43Z beach: I will stop now. This kind of discussion makes me upset. 2021-02-24T10:32:48Z drbluefall: k 2021-02-24T10:33:04Z carkh: yes, i think i'll stick to clojure for the web, rust is annoyingly low level for that kind of stuff 2021-02-24T10:33:14Z carkh: CL is a happy middle ground 2021-02-24T10:33:27Z drbluefall: fair 2021-02-24T10:33:58Z drbluefall: Perhaps it's just a case of experience. 2021-02-24T10:35:07Z carkh: that borrow checker gymnastic seemed annoying to me. Though i can see how this is all usefull for low level work 2021-02-24T10:38:01Z drbluefall: For me, the draw was more the ecosystem than the language itself (although the language felt much nicer than what I was using before). 2021-02-24T10:38:19Z carkh: yes the ecosystem is awesome 2021-02-24T10:38:51Z drbluefall: In contrast, I came to CL purely for the language 2021-02-24T10:38:59Z drbluefall: since it just feels *so nice to write* 2021-02-24T10:39:05Z carkh: that's one thing missing here, a competent packge system (even if quicklisp is a big step in the right direction) 2021-02-24T10:39:15Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-24T10:40:35Z drbluefall: quicklisp I find usually sufficient, although something akin to cargo would be absolutely *amazing* 2021-02-24T10:41:01Z moon-child: imo nothing beats perl/cpan for package management. But quicklisp is fine 2021-02-24T10:41:35Z drbluefall: I've never used perl/cpan, so I can't make a judgement on it myself 2021-02-24T10:41:57Z drbluefall: I think the most painful experience with packages and dependencies was in C/C++. 2021-02-24T10:42:17Z carkh: ah yes, and the build system jungle >< 2021-02-24T10:42:47Z Nilby: What do you folks find missing from quicklisp that is in cargo? 2021-02-24T10:42:59Z moon-child: the main essential complexity with c is that they tried to make dynamic linking work. Dynamic linking is a really nice idea, but it's proven itself to be unworkable 2021-02-24T10:43:09Z carkh: nilby : per project library version pinning 2021-02-24T10:43:13Z drbluefall: ^ 2021-02-24T10:43:45Z carkh: it's not silver bullet, but it helps 2021-02-24T10:44:05Z Nilby: Ah, I see. 2021-02-24T10:44:27Z carkh: right now, any updating of your libraries is an adventure 2021-02-24T10:44:34Z carkh: what will it break ? 2021-02-24T10:44:39Z beach: moon-child: Dynamic linking was the norm in Multics and it worked great. The problem you see are very likely due to the fact that Unix imposes a programming model that makes the process look like the naked machines from 70 years ago or so. 2021-02-24T10:44:47Z Nilby: I might be wierd, but I very rarely have any library version trouble with CL. 2021-02-24T10:44:56Z beach: moon-child: We certainly knew how to do it better half a century ago. 2021-02-24T10:45:03Z moon-child: beach: sure 2021-02-24T10:45:13Z moon-child: beach: I think implicit in 'c' is 'c+unix' 2021-02-24T10:45:20Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-24T10:45:30Z moon-child: (or windows, which is close enough where it counts) 2021-02-24T10:45:33Z beach: I see (I "C"?). 2021-02-24T10:45:40Z drbluefall: I c. 2021-02-24T10:46:00Z beach: moon-child: Yes, Windows is essentially the same. 2021-02-24T10:46:02Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-24T10:46:21Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-24T10:46:30Z marcoxa: Whoa. @beach Multics? As in https://multicians.org/ ? 2021-02-24T10:46:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-24T10:46:59Z beach: I was horrified when I learned about Unix-style dynamic linking in the book "Linkers and Loaders" by John Levine. 2021-02-24T10:47:04Z jdz: Nilby: That is not very weird if the language supports optional and named parameters. 2021-02-24T10:47:31Z beach: marcoxa: Yes, that multics. And the `@' convention is not used on IRC. 2021-02-24T10:47:32Z Nilby: jdz: Exactly! 2021-02-24T10:47:32Z jdz: Nilby: And also multiple return values. That way code is much easier to update without breaking existing users. 2021-02-24T10:47:35Z kevingal: I miss virtual environments from Python, though I guess that's not something that's missing from quicklisp. 2021-02-24T10:48:52Z beach: marcoxa: Unix was meant to mimic as many features as they could from Multics, but on a very small PDP machine at the time. I guess they managed to use `ls' and a few more things. 2021-02-24T10:49:15Z Nilby: jdz: With those things, it seems almost trivial not to break compatibility. 2021-02-24T10:49:49Z Stanley00 quit 2021-02-24T10:49:59Z beach: I am not in favor of a return to Multics, because it had similar (but not as severe) address-space limitations as 16 or 32-bit machines do. But we can do better now. 2021-02-24T10:51:06Z drbluefall: Admittedly I'm not entirely familiar with Multics, since it seems to be entirely before my time 2021-02-24T10:51:14Z beach: By the way, the Common Lisp condition system was largely inspired by that of Multics PL/I. All other languages seem to have forgotten about that. 2021-02-24T10:51:56Z beach: So the exception-handling of most languages is indeed inferior to that of Common Lisp and Multics PL/I. 2021-02-24T10:52:20Z beach: drbluefall: Lame excuse. It is important to know computing history. 2021-02-24T10:52:41Z beach: Or else, you will think that what we have now is the greatest thing since sliced bread. 2021-02-24T10:52:43Z drbluefall: I'm *barely a year out of high school.* 2021-02-24T10:52:47Z drbluefall: bite me. 2021-02-24T10:53:00Z beach: That's a good excuse though. Not the previous one. 2021-02-24T10:53:29Z beach: Like "I haven't yet had the time to read up on computing history" is acceptable. 2021-02-24T10:53:48Z beach: But "Since it is before I was borne, I don't care about it" is not. 2021-02-24T10:54:23Z beach: *born 2021-02-24T10:54:36Z drbluefall: I intend to double down on CL and Rust, since both appeal to me in their own ways enough that I want to invest time in both 2021-02-24T10:54:44Z carkh: can't be an expert on everything 2021-02-24T10:55:39Z beach: carkh: I said nothing about being an "expert". But it is important to know what we had and that was lost in favor of the truly inferior stuff we are forced to use today. 2021-02-24T10:55:41Z moon-child: drbluefall: rust is mostly ocaml and c++, with bits of cyclone and clean mixed in. Not worth the effort. If you want to learn about the interesting things in rust, I recommend ocaml and ats 2021-02-24T10:56:02Z kevingal: Are you even a programmer if you haven't mastered COBOL, FORTRAN, and FLOW-MATIC? 2021-02-24T10:56:40Z carkh: beach: i think it might depend on your goals, i can see how you may be interested, due to your endeavours 2021-02-24T10:57:42Z beach: carkh: Oh, it definitely depend on your goals. Like if all you want is to make money by doing what everyone else does while being ignorant of what we could have, then sure, just use the tools you need. 2021-02-24T10:57:44Z drbluefall: moon-child: I think something being "worth the effort" is a subjective matter 2021-02-24T10:58:34Z beach: carkh: Luckily, I find that Common Lisp programmers often want more than that, and that's why I like to hang out here in #lisp. 2021-02-24T10:58:43Z drbluefall: Like, other languages may have features that Rust also has, but it ain't just the features of a language that matter. It's also the experience developing in it 2021-02-24T10:58:53Z Nilby: Now I can have exception handling unix and even other OSes thanks to CL. 2021-02-24T10:59:01Z carkh: beach ; right i think noone in this channel is ignoring the past 2021-02-24T10:59:34Z jackdaniel: are we talking about cl vs the world again? :) 2021-02-24T10:59:34Z beach: That would be good if it were true. And, in the meantime, let's educate the others. 2021-02-24T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-24T11:00:07Z beach: jackdaniel: Heh. *blush*. I'll take my lunch break now. That will calm me down. 2021-02-24T11:00:18Z jackdaniel: enjoy your lunch! 2021-02-24T11:00:20Z kevingal: Speaking of history, I read this the other day: https://twobithistory.org/2018/07/22/dawn-of-the-microcomputer.html 2021-02-24T11:00:22Z carkh: =) 2021-02-24T11:01:19Z carkh: beach: hum didn't mean to upset you, i i did i apologise 2021-02-24T11:01:24Z carkh: if* 2021-02-24T11:01:36Z nullx002 quit (Quit: qicr for android: faster and better) 2021-02-24T11:01:39Z kevingal: It refers to an Altair emulator that lets you enter a program using virtual switches. 2021-02-24T11:01:39Z jackdaniel: I've wanted to learn rust some time ago, but my "Hello world" program still compiles ;) 2021-02-24T11:01:47Z drbluefall: well, while y'all do that, I'm gonna get cracking on with my web api. 2021-02-24T11:01:50Z drbluefall: Take care! 2021-02-24T11:01:54Z jackdaniel: \o 2021-02-24T11:02:19Z drbluefall quit (Quit: peace) 2021-02-24T11:03:03Z drbluefall joined #lisp 2021-02-24T11:04:09Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T11:05:57Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T11:10:24Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-24T11:11:38Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp 2021-02-24T11:15:00Z Keyboard1orrier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T11:16:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-24T11:21:23Z pyc: Is there a nice channel that focusses on the retro and historical aspect of computing? 2021-02-24T11:22:09Z beach: carkh: No, no. I upset myself by getting into these discussions. 2021-02-24T11:22:11Z marcoxa: beach, OT, but I presume you know about Hercules, SIMH and OS2200 Express :) 2021-02-24T11:22:43Z beach: Not very much, no. 2021-02-24T11:22:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-24T11:23:35Z marcoxa: I wasted a lot of ti.... er, had a loto of fun with those the past year. Hey. I learned JCL :) 2021-02-24T11:23:39Z beach: So, according to Land of Lisp, page 40, if you type (cons 'pork (cons 'beef (cons 'chicken ()))) to the REPL, it would be "perfectly correct" for the REPL to answer (cons 'pork (cons 'beef (cons 'chicken ()))) in addition to (pork beef chicken). 2021-02-24T11:24:10Z beach: Reading badly written books is another way of making me upset. 2021-02-24T11:24:34Z beach: marcoxa: I can imagine. 2021-02-24T11:24:53Z beach: s/in addition to/instead of/ 2021-02-24T11:26:20Z marcoxa: beach: as I said, it has been fun. I also veered off a tangent and wrote the missing JCL mode for Emacs :) 2021-02-24T11:26:52Z beach: Oh, that sounds like real fun. 2021-02-24T11:26:55Z marcoxa: PS I agree on PL/I error handling et similia. 2021-02-24T11:27:34Z kevingal_: What's JCL? 2021-02-24T11:27:40Z beach: I won't elaborate, for fear of being reprimanded by jackdaniel again. 2021-02-24T11:27:43Z marcoxa: beach: I am sick. I know. https://within-parens.blogspot.com/2020/12/iron-handling-with-emacs-lisp.html 2021-02-24T11:27:46Z beach: Job Control Language 2021-02-24T11:28:58Z beach: kevingal_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Job_Control_Language 2021-02-24T11:29:52Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T11:29:55Z jackdaniel: I'm not reprimending anyone, I was just curious if we've reached this point of the year when this discussion theme starts another cycle! 2021-02-24T11:30:29Z beach: jackdaniel: I am just giving you a hard time. 2021-02-24T11:30:32Z jackdaniel: like, erm, eternal late february :) 2021-02-24T11:31:08Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T11:31:26Z beach: Maybe there *is* a cycle. Could be the full moon, maybe? 2021-02-24T11:31:33Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-24T11:31:54Z beach: Anyway, back to register allocation. 2021-02-24T11:32:18Z jackdaniel: who would have thought, that a simple method resize-sheet could be this tricky 2021-02-24T11:33:54Z jackdaniel: (if we insist on doing the right thing with arbitrary sheet regions :) 2021-02-24T11:34:57Z Nilby: heh, They haven't got it right in web browsers yet either 2021-02-24T11:35:38Z kevingal_: Looks really fun, marcoxa. 2021-02-24T11:36:01Z Nilby: resizing is one of those potentially hard constraint problems 2021-02-24T11:36:16Z jackdaniel: well, it is not that hard in this case 2021-02-24T11:36:20Z jackdaniel: still tricky! 2021-02-24T11:37:20Z kevingal_: Are you planning to get a job programming mainframes? The thought crossed my mind when I read those articles about the lack of COBOL programmers. 2021-02-24T11:48:17Z marcoxa: kevingal it has been fun. I also learned a lot about Emacs that I did not know. 2021-02-24T11:48:36Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-24T11:49:12Z marcoxa: Let's say that I am in the right age group to apply for a COBOL programmer position :) I do have other plans though :) 2021-02-24T11:57:23Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T11:57:46Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-24T11:59:16Z kevingal_: I had a little daydream about walking through air-conditioned halls and learning the secrets of the mainframes from the ancient sages. But maybe I'll try out this emulator instead, haha. 2021-02-24T12:03:22Z rogersm: folks, any recommendation on changing Common Lisp colouring in emacs? After some time using the standard emacs colours I would like to try something different. 2021-02-24T12:04:48Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-24T12:10:37Z ck_: sounds like a question custom-crafted for #emacs ? but try M-x customize-themes 2021-02-24T12:13:19Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-24T12:14:06Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-24T12:17:57Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-24T12:19:15Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-24T12:20:08Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T12:23:48Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-24T12:28:19Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T12:29:22Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-24T12:29:41Z lotuseater quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T12:32:48Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-24T12:32:55Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-24T12:42:49Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-24T12:44:08Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-02-24T12:44:17Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-02-24T12:48:29Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-24T12:55:33Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-02-24T13:01:22Z marcoxa: kevingal I can be your guide, but only to point out the dangers, not to fight them :) Plus, you will need a button down shirt (white), thick rimmed glasses, a skinny tie and, above all, some pens in your shirt pockets. Dilbert is an amateur. 2021-02-24T13:01:50Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-24T13:04:50Z marcoxa: Check this out: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/kgw96j/experimental_command_prompt_in_the_header_line/ 2021-02-24T13:05:05Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T13:05:08Z marcoxa: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2008.06030.pdf 2021-02-24T13:06:13Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T13:07:33Z jmercouris: when doing CFFI, is there anything I can realistically do in the ldb? 2021-02-24T13:07:54Z jmercouris: backtrace just reveals: 0: Foreign function gsignal, pc = 0x7fbf3cdcf08a, fp = 0x7fbf19cf7778 2021-02-24T13:07:56Z jmercouris: that's literally it 2021-02-24T13:08:31Z jackdaniel: you may attach gdb to the running process and examine these addresses 2021-02-24T13:08:48Z jmercouris: hm, I see 2021-02-24T13:08:51Z jmercouris: that may be a good idea 2021-02-24T13:10:24Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T13:13:40Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T13:14:23Z nullx002_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T13:14:33Z marcoxa: Bye for now... 2021-02-24T13:14:38Z marcoxa quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-24T13:14:38Z jackdaniel: see you \o 2021-02-24T13:14:49Z nullx002_: hi all, 2021-02-24T13:15:07Z nullx002_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T13:15:09Z jackdaniel: I personally usually print these numbers and add put it in my "do not use cffi" archive files 2021-02-24T13:15:12Z jackdaniel: nullheroes: hey 2021-02-24T13:15:32Z jackdaniel: nullx002_ * 2021-02-24T13:15:49Z jackdaniel: s/cffi/ffi libraries/ 2021-02-24T13:16:08Z jmercouris: I was really confused for a moment there 2021-02-24T13:22:49Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-24T13:25:55Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-02-24T13:28:32Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-24T13:31:10Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2021-02-24T13:32:07Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T13:32:12Z pyc: what is the difference between Quicklisp and Roswell? when would one use one vs. the other? 2021-02-24T13:33:56Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T13:34:27Z jackdaniel: roswell is a set of C programs that is meant to help you manage local lisp installations and such 2021-02-24T13:35:04Z jackdaniel: quicklisp is a program that lets you download libraries and load them in your running image 2021-02-24T13:35:47Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T13:37:32Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T13:38:18Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T13:39:09Z pyc: thanks jackdaniel 2021-02-24T13:39:34Z pyc: is it possible to have multiple parallel quicklisp installation to separate the dependencies of one project from another? 2021-02-24T13:39:42Z jackdaniel: yes 2021-02-24T13:40:10Z pyc: how can I do that, I see quicklisp always comes and installs itself at ~/quicklisp 2021-02-24T13:41:24Z jackdaniel: I think that the funciton quicklisp-quickstart:install has a keyword argument that allows you to specify the path 2021-02-24T13:45:32Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-24T13:46:28Z pyc: jackdaniel: excellent! thanks for the help. 2021-02-24T13:46:40Z jackdaniel: sure 2021-02-24T13:47:17Z nullx002: i used sbcl now on ecl.... anything different? 2021-02-24T13:47:38Z jackdaniel: nullx002: ? 2021-02-24T13:48:31Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T13:48:36Z nullx002: termux only has ecl coz of clang... 2021-02-24T13:48:42Z nullx002: no sbcl 2021-02-24T13:49:16Z GZJ0X_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T13:49:28Z jackdaniel: nullx002: but what is your question? 2021-02-24T13:54:51Z Nilby: nullx002: There's a gcc for termux, and I think someone compiled an sbcl using it. 2021-02-24T13:55:14Z pyc: here is one thing that confuses me. I want to keep a list of words in my program and I will iterate on those words and do stuff. Those words could be IDs of some table entries or lookup keys or anything else. Should I define them as (defvar *keys* '("title", "tag", "author", "date")) or should I do (defvar *keys* '(title, tag, author, date))? 2021-02-24T13:57:12Z jackdaniel: you don't put commas between arguments in common lisp 2021-02-24T13:57:15Z Nilby: pyc: Probably the second way, without the commas 2021-02-24T13:59:46Z Xach: beach: i really enjoy the style guide in the SICL repo 2021-02-24T14:02:26Z beach: Thanks! 2021-02-24T14:02:37Z pyc: jackdaniel: sorry about the commas. muscle memory from other languages. 2021-02-24T14:02:54Z pyc: Nilby: why is the second way preferred? 2021-02-24T14:03:27Z Nilby: Symbols usually can be compared faster than strings. 2021-02-24T14:05:41Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-24T14:08:06Z Xach: beach: the tex source code is quite easy to read, but it would be a bit easier if rendered. is there a PDF or other rendered version available? 2021-02-24T14:08:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-24T14:09:00Z beach: Xach: Is this the document in SICL/Specification/...? 2021-02-24T14:09:09Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-24T14:09:14Z Xach: beach: yes, chap-general-coding-style.tex 2021-02-24T14:10:25Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-24T14:10:26Z beach: Then it is in chapter 31 of http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf 2021-02-24T14:11:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-24T14:12:14Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-24T14:29:14Z Xach: Thank you 2021-02-24T14:30:32Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-02-24T14:33:43Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-02-24T14:42:01Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-24T14:50:39Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-24T14:54:05Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-24T14:59:02Z euandreh joined #lisp 2021-02-24T15:00:44Z Xach: beach: I like your point about grammatical vs. idiomatic. Do you view idiomatic as implying a unique result? Is it improper to say that there are multiple idiomatic solutions for a given problem? 2021-02-24T15:01:24Z Xach: One challenge of establishing style seems to me to be choosing between multiple arguably-valid choices, and I'm not sure that those choices are appropriately labeled "idiomatic" 2021-02-24T15:01:35Z toorevitimirp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-24T15:03:01Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-24T15:03:36Z beach: I believe that there could be multiple idiomatic solutions. But I can't think of any such cases right now. 2021-02-24T15:05:23Z beach: And, sure, there are often several choices possible, and it may be that there is no particular idiom for the situation in question. 2021-02-24T15:05:40Z Xach: Hmm. I am thinking about resolving differences like preferring to use keywords for LOOP grammar vs. not, where the result really seems to be a matter of the weight given to each advantage and disadvantage. 2021-02-24T15:05:56Z Xach: and the weight is often quite personally felt 2021-02-24T15:06:34Z beach: Yes, in this case, I have no particular opinion myself, other than that I choose one over the other. I won't reject code written in the other style. 2021-02-24T15:06:35Z Xach: Your examples illustrate well the obviousness of how some grammatically valid things are just obviously wrong to a native speaker 2021-02-24T15:06:47Z Xach: But some things are not obviously wrong or right 2021-02-24T15:06:54Z beach: Indeed. 2021-02-24T15:06:55Z Xach: beach: Not even in the name of consistency? 2021-02-24T15:07:01Z jackdaniel: DO crowd churns in and says: don't LOOP with LOOP, DO DO with DO :) 2021-02-24T15:08:13Z beach: Xach: Let me put it this way. If I write a book myself, I would use consistent choices in the entire book. But if I am the editor of a book where different authors are in charge of different chapters, I find it normal that the choices can be different in different chapters. 2021-02-24T15:08:20Z beach: The same goes for SICL code. 2021-02-24T15:08:56Z Xach: beach: Interesting! What if you are at a company and every area of the code may have many different authors over different time periods? 2021-02-24T15:09:01Z beach: If a "module" is written by someone other than me, it is normal that this code looks slightly different from mine in situations where no particular idiom is called for. 2021-02-24T15:09:08Z Xach: (I think the SICL endeavor is not too different from that) 2021-02-24T15:09:50Z Xach: There is also the issue of "what should a new author do?" where they may not have established preferences to impose 2021-02-24T15:09:59Z Xach: New as in newbie 2021-02-24T15:09:59Z jmercouris: I think as long as the code is cleaer, and each module has a clear API boundary, it can be in whatever style it wants 2021-02-24T15:10:18Z Nilby: I think there certainly a parallel between code and natural language writing style and style guides. 2021-02-24T15:10:35Z jmercouris: Except that I don't think writing and reading code is like writing and reading books 2021-02-24T15:10:49Z jmercouris: I think of it as a higher level activity than natural language 2021-02-24T15:11:08Z beach: Xach: Again, I think there are "idioms" that should always be followed, and "personal differences" that can in fact be interesting, in that you can see who wrote a particular module. Within a module, it is preferable to keep a single style I would say. 2021-02-24T15:11:09Z jmercouris: you're right though, there are some parallels 2021-02-24T15:11:13Z jmercouris: like don't write super long paragraphs 2021-02-24T15:12:07Z beach: jmercouris: I won't accept contributed modules for SICL with any style that does not follow what I consider idiomatic Common Lisp. 2021-02-24T15:12:30Z jmercouris: beach: that makes sense, you are after all the capitane! 2021-02-24T15:12:49Z jmercouris: I am a believer in VERY CLEAR, very good API 2021-02-24T15:12:58Z jmercouris: beyond that, it does not matter to me, it can always be rewritten 2021-02-24T15:13:08Z jmercouris: in fact, it probably will be rewritten 2021-02-24T15:13:20Z jmercouris: now, if you have leaky abstractions, lots of shared state, or a bad API, this approach is not feasiible 2021-02-24T15:13:50Z beach: Xach: There is another chapter, chapter 32, that is more detailed and perhaps more for newbies and more for SICL. I wrote chapter 31 to be more general. 2021-02-24T15:14:11Z beach: Both chapters are unfinished, though, so I may add more things later. 2021-02-24T15:14:27Z Nilby: You can have two excellent authors with quite different but good styles, but the average person's style might be pretty bad and could use to closely follow guides. 2021-02-24T15:14:48Z jmercouris: Nilby: indeed 2021-02-24T15:15:01Z jmercouris: that's why I only like to work with people commited to becoming excellent 2021-02-24T15:15:04Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-24T15:15:12Z beach: Xach: I am not sure I addressed your issues. 2021-02-24T15:17:31Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-24T15:17:35Z beach: jmercouris: Natural languages and programming languages do have a lot in common though, like the language-specific idioms I wrote about in chapter 31. And also something that most programmers who have never worked in a team seem to ignore, namely that both are meant primarily as a means of communication between people. 2021-02-24T15:17:58Z jmercouris: I would argue that programming languages are primarily a means of communication between an individual and a machine 2021-02-24T15:18:02Z beach: jmercouris: You don't have to look very far back in the #lisp logs to see opinions in that direction. 2021-02-24T15:18:05Z jmercouris: however, when working in a group setting, it becomes the lingua franca 2021-02-24T15:18:21Z jmercouris: it is not that they are /meant/ to be for communication with other people 2021-02-24T15:18:29Z jmercouris: they are however the only effective means of such communication 2021-02-24T15:18:30Z beach: jmercouris: The entire body if software-engineering literature disagrees with you. 2021-02-24T15:18:45Z jmercouris: well, OK :-) 2021-02-24T15:19:08Z jmercouris: we could all use engineering diagrams, which /ARE/ meant for communication of such ideas 2021-02-24T15:19:12Z jmercouris: but frankly, nobody understands them :-D 2021-02-24T15:19:24Z jmercouris: whereas we all understand the language we are programming in, hence why we use it to convey these ideas precisely 2021-02-24T15:19:54Z jmercouris: I will note that most pseudocode examples are just that, a pseudo language designed to mimic programming languages for the purpose of conveying information amongst programmers 2021-02-24T15:19:56Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T15:20:06Z jmercouris: the key difference here is that these set of programmers do not share a lingua franca! 2021-02-24T15:20:10Z jmercouris: hence the invention of the pseudo language 2021-02-24T15:20:46Z beach: jmercouris: Look, let me say this again for the nth time: I am not smart enough and not knowledgeable enough to make up my own ideas about programming, so I rely on established literature, smart, knowledgeable, and experienced people who have already done it, and who mainly agree with one another. 2021-02-24T15:20:51Z jmercouris: I'm not sure where I'm going with this other than to say that I think programming langauges are to make it easier for the programmer to communicate with the computer, not with each other 2021-02-24T15:21:26Z jmercouris: beach: I understand the appeal you are making, but I have a lot of ideas that disagree with people much smarter than me 2021-02-24T15:22:02Z jmercouris: sometimes even experts are wrong :-) 2021-02-24T15:22:08Z jmercouris: and I am not so far out of my domain that I can't have an opinion 2021-02-24T15:22:18Z jmercouris: I'm not exactly arguing astrophysics here, I am in fact a computer scientist 2021-02-24T15:22:46Z beach: jmercouris: The programmers who don't share the same ideas about grammatical vs idiomatic phrases with these smart, knowledgeable, and experienced people i am referring to, are precisely the programmers who write code that will waste a lot of time to the maintainers. 2021-02-24T15:22:57Z jmercouris: ay yai yai :-D 2021-02-24T15:23:05Z jmercouris: I hope my code isn't too dirty :-D 2021-02-24T15:23:19Z Xach: beach: To some degree. I think there's an interesting difference between volunteers, students, and employees when it comes to contributing to a shared code base. 2021-02-24T15:24:03Z beach: Xach: Sure, the differences exist. But they are not always desirable. 2021-02-24T15:24:58Z Nilby: If you are primarily communicating with the machine, you could just write assembly, like the lovely 124 line PDP-1 Lisp GC in assmebly. 2021-02-24T15:25:06Z Xach: beach: I'm thinking specifically about how an employee will do something they slightly disagree with because they are paid, and students might do it because someone in authority seems to know better, but volunteers can be more likely to simply stop volunteering. 2021-02-24T15:25:25Z Xach: And how that applies to issues of taste and preference 2021-02-24T15:25:34Z jmercouris: Nilby: you will have a hard time communicating with the machine, in my opinion programming languages are an attempt to make machine language closer to our language, so we can talk to them more easily 2021-02-24T15:25:38Z beach: jmercouris: And let me also say this for the nth time: If you keep your code to yourself, as far as I am concerned, you can use whatever style you want, following whatever personal ideas you like, but if you expose your code for others to read, like if you ask for help, it is very impolite not to follow these idioms. 2021-02-24T15:25:58Z jmercouris: beach: nobody is perfect, I do my best :-) 2021-02-24T15:27:02Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-24T15:27:18Z beach: jmercouris: Well, the way it should work then, is that when you submit code that violates these idioms, and this is politely pointed out to you, the right answer is to fix your code, and not argue that you can do whatever you please. 2021-02-24T15:27:41Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-24T15:28:58Z beach: Xach: Sure, difficult issues. Especially since the authority (employer, teacher) may not be knowledgeable enough to know the difference between grammatical and idiomatic phrases either. In fact, that's probably rather the rule than the exception. 2021-02-24T15:29:16Z jmercouris: beach: Hm, I don't remember doing that 2021-02-24T15:29:37Z beach: jmercouris: I meant the third-person "you" here. 2021-02-24T15:29:40Z jmercouris: I see 2021-02-24T15:29:43Z beach: Not you personally. 2021-02-24T15:30:01Z beach: But again, you don't have to look far back in the logs to see that kind of behavior. 2021-02-24T15:30:03Z jmercouris: I think that's pretty far 2021-02-24T15:30:09Z jmercouris: s/far/fair 2021-02-24T15:30:10Z beach: "But *I* prefer ...." 2021-02-24T15:31:29Z beach: "Please look at my code and give me help, even though I don't give a damn about respecting the rules that will make it easy for you to understand my code, so please spend 10 times as much time as you should have, just because *I* don't care." 2021-02-24T15:31:43Z jmercouris: hm, yeah 2021-02-24T15:31:47Z jmercouris: it's quite common this 2021-02-24T15:31:51Z beach: Very. 2021-02-24T15:32:13Z jmercouris: I notice it a lot in pull requests 2021-02-24T15:32:16Z Xach: "i have to get this done for an assignment and after that i will never use lisp again" 2021-02-24T15:32:19Z jmercouris: very convoluted code, very strange designs :-D 2021-02-24T15:32:36Z jmercouris: I can't exactly blame those people, for them, Lisp is just a stepping stone 2021-02-24T15:32:39Z beach: Xach: Yes, that too. 2021-02-24T15:32:41Z jmercouris: they don't care about it 2021-02-24T15:32:57Z beach: jmercouris: But then, we don't care about them. 2021-02-24T15:33:07Z jmercouris: yes, but that might make them a bit salty :-) 2021-02-24T15:33:09Z jmercouris: which is expected 2021-02-24T15:33:13Z jmercouris: sometimes people get salty 2021-02-24T15:33:17Z jmercouris: whether justified or not 2021-02-24T15:34:15Z beach: Es tut mir leid. 2021-02-24T15:34:37Z jmercouris: nix passiert 2021-02-24T15:34:43Z villanella joined #lisp 2021-02-24T15:35:20Z jmercouris: so I've made this macro: http://dpaste.com/A5C8WQ9U7 2021-02-24T15:35:34Z jmercouris: and I am wondering how to make it like flet to allow the declaration of several functions 2021-02-24T15:35:51Z jmercouris: how could I make it allow for multiple functions 2021-02-24T15:35:56Z beach: As we recently discussed (me and ebrasca) in #sicl, the reason many programmers don't know the distinction between grammatical and idiomatic phrases is that they do not read other people's code. 2021-02-24T15:36:18Z beach: And our teaching programs do not require them to do so. 2021-02-24T15:36:37Z jmercouris: that's true, I ready very little code outside of algorithmic snippets in my studies 2021-02-24T15:36:45Z beach: So how can they tell the difference? It would be like a novel writer who never read books by other authors. 2021-02-24T15:37:50Z beach: I for one would very likely not appreciate a novel by such an author, much like I don't appreciate the code of someone who has not figured out the idioms. 2021-02-24T15:38:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T15:39:19Z beach: Again, like I said in #sicl, my (admittedly small) family studied English literature at the university, and they had to read a novel per week as homework assignment. 2021-02-24T15:39:50Z jmercouris: seems excessive, a novel per week 2021-02-24T15:40:29Z jackdaniel: people who do not study often read in this pace (if they have 1h a day for that), doesn't seem excessive to me 2021-02-24T15:40:37Z ldbeth: I just find that sometimes I'm mimicking idoms from other programming languages when I'm rewriting CL 2021-02-24T15:40:45Z ldbeth: *idioms 2021-02-24T15:40:59Z jackdaniel: who do not study literature* 2021-02-24T15:41:04Z beach: ldbeth: And that's particularly bad, as I clearly write in chapter 31. 2021-02-24T15:41:12Z Xach: ldbeth: that's an accent 2021-02-24T15:41:24Z Xach: accent is not the right word... 2021-02-24T15:41:29Z lukego: Hey I want four variables bound to fresh hashtables but I'm not willing to spend four lines of code on let clauses. What's a less crappy solution than this? (destructuring-bind (left right top bottom) (mapcar #'make-hash-table (iota 4)) 2021-02-24T15:41:31Z beach: Yes, very similar to an accent in natural language. 2021-02-24T15:41:54Z Xach: but using idiomatic "foreign" phrases with literal translation is a good recipe for confusion 2021-02-24T15:41:55Z lukego: (oh duh this is broken anyway, the arg..) 2021-02-24T15:41:56Z beach: Xach: I used "accent" when I explained this phenomenon to my students. It's a fine use of the word. 2021-02-24T15:42:01Z jackdaniel: Xach: regionalism? 2021-02-24T15:42:01Z ldbeth: beach: what's chapter 31? 2021-02-24T15:42:24Z beach: ldbeth: We are talking about chapter 31 of http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf 2021-02-24T15:42:25Z Xach: beach: I think of accent as more phonetic than grammatical, I suppose. 2021-02-24T15:42:36Z ldbeth: ah, thank you 2021-02-24T15:42:43Z beach: Yes, but I couldn't find a better term. 2021-02-24T15:43:19Z jackdaniel: lukego: 4 lines of let sounds much better than dbind 2021-02-24T15:43:47Z lukego: jackdaniel: yeah so what's the fantastic third option that we're not talking about? some great macro in serapeum or something? 2021-02-24T15:44:00Z jackdaniel: if it would be 30 hash tables, I'd write a macro 2021-02-24T15:44:06Z jackdaniel: if it is four, I would use let 2021-02-24T15:44:11Z Xach: jackdaniel: being monolingual, i can't think of specific examples off the top of my head :( 2021-02-24T15:44:42Z Xach: jackdaniel: but locally, if the roads are very icy, someone would clearly understand me if i told them "it's just like a bottle outside" - and i don't think that would carry the same meaning if literally translated. 2021-02-24T15:45:15Z Xach: i suppose the term is idiom, but in a slightly different sense that we have discussed so far 2021-02-24T15:45:23Z jackdaniel: sounds like a regionalism (or a dialect) 2021-02-24T15:45:35Z beach: Yes, "idiom" has two different meanings. 2021-02-24T15:45:39Z ldbeth: but why there's 4~30 hashtables 2021-02-24T15:45:56Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T15:46:00Z ldbeth: maybe it is possible to avoid so much duplications 2021-02-24T15:47:45Z lukego: (Speaking of "accents" I'm basically trying to write (1 to: 4) collect: [ Hashtable new] but in Lisp rather than Smalltalk) 2021-02-24T15:48:07Z lukego: well, no, that would be a list. oh well I'll stop trying to be cute 2021-02-24T15:49:11Z ldbeth: com'on, many of us get used to other languages 2021-02-24T15:50:16Z lukego: jackdaniel: maybe I can replace it with one hashtable and a compound key e.g. cons 2021-02-24T15:50:58Z ldbeth: or an array based struct 2021-02-24T15:52:21Z lukego: or a hashtable of 4-vectors... 2021-02-24T15:52:38Z Xach: fourples, please. 2021-02-24T15:52:48Z ldbeth: omg 2021-02-24T15:52:53Z jackdaniel: I think that by now you'd be able to type all four bindings by hand! 2021-02-24T15:52:56Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-24T15:53:40Z lukego: jackdaniel: yeah. well I already wrote them out by hand, but now I'm rewriting this file for clarity because it got too confusing, and I'm not wild about writing them four times by hand twice :) 2021-02-24T15:54:18Z jackdaniel: by now you should be able to write them twice by hand twice (that is 16 times!) 2021-02-24T15:54:46Z jasom has no clue what that ST code does 2021-02-24T15:55:07Z jackdaniel: jasom: (loop repeat 4 collect (make-hash-table)) 2021-02-24T15:55:24Z ldbeth no this is not u hashell channel 2021-02-24T15:56:33Z ldbeth: "Consider the use of locks to be free. We predict that a technique call 'speculative lock elision' will soon be available in all main processors." 2021-02-24T15:56:44Z ldbeth: well thats great 2021-02-24T15:58:56Z jasom: I think Itanium had that with TSX? 2021-02-24T15:59:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-24T15:59:55Z jasom: And it was actually slower than non-speculative if there was a conflict (and conflicts included system calls and interrupts) 2021-02-24T16:01:13Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:02:05Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-24T16:04:49Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:06:02Z beach: I may have to modify that phase. 2021-02-24T16:06:15Z ldbeth: Is it possible to "deriving" a lexer from readtable 2021-02-24T16:08:04Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-02-24T16:08:05Z ldbeth: or how is fault tolerant lisp code parsing supposed to be done? 2021-02-24T16:08:42Z beach: What kind of fault tolerance are you referring to? 2021-02-24T16:08:43Z lukego: and behold! my cleverly refactored version of the program is incomprehensible and the unrefactoring commenceth 2021-02-24T16:08:56Z jackdaniel: it is very impossible to "parse" common lisp code; it is usually read 2021-02-24T16:09:05Z jackdaniel: (you may have a customized reader) 2021-02-24T16:09:20Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:09:36Z jackdaniel: s/very impossible/very hard/ 2021-02-24T16:10:17Z ldbeth: parsing when paren pairs are unmatched/some read macros are undefined 2021-02-24T16:10:48Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:10:50Z beach: ldbeth: You use Eclector and handle the conditions it signals. 2021-02-24T16:11:08Z pfdietz: A readtable can reference arbitrary code and cause arbitrary computation. 2021-02-24T16:13:19Z ldbeth: I remember there's a proposal for "sandboxing" computation effects? 2021-02-24T16:14:45Z ldbeth: beach: ah, conditions! and of course I can continue reading from the condition handler in CL 2021-02-24T16:14:54Z Alfr: jmercouris, wrt your flet question above, you may want something like this: https://dpaste.com/FGS5HW5GK 2021-02-24T16:15:16Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T16:15:21Z beach: ldbeth: I use sandboxing on a daily basis. SICL code is executed in a first-class global environment represented inside a host Common Lisp implementation. 2021-02-24T16:19:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T16:21:03Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T16:21:20Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:21:25Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:21:47Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:21:52Z ldbeth try setting up sicl right now 2021-02-24T16:22:33Z beach: I don't think that's enough for you to use sandboxing independently, though. 2021-02-24T16:23:25Z beach: I haven't set things up (yet) to make that easy to do. 2021-02-24T16:23:56Z lukego: Hey what's a neat way to do some final tests on a functions' return value? like I have (calc-foo) and I want (let ((foo (calc-foo))) (check-foo foo) foo) but less verbosely? just do (check-foo (calc-foo)) and make check-foo return the value too? or is there a "prog1" type mechanism that I'm overlooking? 2021-02-24T16:24:02Z pyc: I am creating some data records hard-coded in the source code. I have to ways to define each record: (1) (list :name "alice" :age 30 :city "london") (2) '(:name "alice" :age 30 :city "london"). Which one is preferred? Are there are any best practices or pros/cons around it? 2021-02-24T16:24:52Z Bike: if the records are mutable, do not use quotation. that's probably the main thing. 2021-02-24T16:25:25Z Bike: lukego: no, that's pretty much it. that's why a lot of for-effect functions in the standard return their argument, like initialize-instance 2021-02-24T16:25:36Z beach: pyc: What Bike said, but also, I would not use lists for stuff like that. I would use standard objects instead. 2021-02-24T16:25:53Z lukego: Bike: okay cool works for me, just a bit rusty and wondered if that was more of a Smalltalk'ism than a Lisp'ism. 2021-02-24T16:26:35Z jmercouris: Alfr: I came up with this: http://dpaste.com/H6YRMYR5G 2021-02-24T16:26:48Z jmercouris: Not sure why it results in a warning... 2021-02-24T16:27:13Z lukego: Hey - me again - what's the significance of SLIME coloring "check-" functions in a different font-lock color? 2021-02-24T16:27:23Z pyc: beach: You man objects from CLOS? I haven't learnt that yet. Let me look up a tutorial. 2021-02-24T16:27:26Z eoyath joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:27:46Z Bike: lukego: i think the idea is that check- is an error checking thing. 2021-02-24T16:27:57Z ldbeth try not scare off people by asking them using clos 2021-02-24T16:28:16Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T16:28:18Z lukego: Bike: okay. So since my function is basically being called for the side effect of signalling an error or not then I guess I should embrace this and keep check- in the name 2021-02-24T16:28:39Z beach: pyc: Many people call them "CLOS objects", but in fact every Common Lisp object is the instance of some class so that term is meaningless. That's why I used the correct term "standard object" which is what you get when you instantiate a class defined by DEFCLASS. 2021-02-24T16:30:06Z beach: pyc: You can use lists for now, but what I would do then is to define specific accessors, defined in terms of FIRST, SECOND, etc. And then use the accessors in your client code. 2021-02-24T16:30:56Z cods quit (Changing host) 2021-02-24T16:30:56Z cods joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:31:08Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:31:09Z beach: pyc: Or you can define them in terms of ASSOC if your lists are unordered. 2021-02-24T16:31:55Z pyc: beach: okay, since I am still learning I will just use lists to play with Lisp right now. It will take me a few days to learn CLOS, so I will follow your advice then. 2021-02-24T16:32:07Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T16:32:12Z jmercouris: Anyone know why this results in slightly different behavior? 2021-02-24T16:32:19Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/H6YRMYR5G 2021-02-24T16:32:34Z jmercouris: damnit, paste is broken 2021-02-24T16:32:37Z beach: pyc: Sounds good. If you do that, you can change the implementation easily when you feel more comfortable with CLOS. 2021-02-24T16:32:44Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/C8D27JEP6 2021-02-24T16:32:44Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:34:43Z jmercouris: anyone know what is wrong with my macro? 2021-02-24T16:35:03Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:36:04Z beach: It looks like you used different current packages for the two versions. 2021-02-24T16:36:18Z jmercouris: I didn't change a thing though 2021-02-24T16:36:29Z jmercouris: I only changed the contents of the macro 2021-02-24T16:38:36Z domovod quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T16:42:01Z zxcvz joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:44:03Z sauvin_ is now known as Sauvin 2021-02-24T16:45:15Z jmercouris: what the F 2021-02-24T16:45:27Z jmercouris: it doesn't change the package in Alfr 's macro 2021-02-24T16:45:29Z jmercouris: that makes zero sense 2021-02-24T16:45:51Z jmercouris: we are doing literally the same exact thing 2021-02-24T16:48:17Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:48:35Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T16:49:09Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T16:50:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T16:50:30Z lukego: Couldn't resist rolling a macro (check (calc-foo) (check1-foo _) (check2-foo _)) I'm on a bad-takes roll today 2021-02-24T16:51:14Z ldbeth: why not check in the caller instead of callee 2021-02-24T16:51:32Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:52:32Z lukego: mostly because when I'm hacking away at the REPL I'll often call the callee directly but still want to know if the checks fail 2021-02-24T16:52:40Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:53:03Z lukego: which I guess is a way to say that the checks belong in the callee i.e. they say whether it is producing well-formed output (independent of the context of the caller) 2021-02-24T16:53:15Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-24T16:53:24Z lukego: (this is a simple lexer that just needs to sanity-check the tokens it's returning) 2021-02-24T16:55:19Z lukego: Sorry if I've asked before but any happy users of check-it? I'm thinking about trying to use it for all of my testing, even though that seems a bit of an uphill battle, in case it forces me into some kind of a productive design-for-testability mindset. but I dunno if tears await 2021-02-24T16:56:32Z Noir joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:57:27Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T16:58:15Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:59:04Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-24T16:59:36Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T17:00:08Z lukego: (Thank you all for your patience with my thinking aloud thoughts best kept to oneself kind of evening...) 2021-02-24T17:01:56Z Nilby: It's like I listened to the radio of watching a movie of you coding :) 2021-02-24T17:05:14Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:12:08Z nullx002 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-24T17:12:23Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:12:34Z warweasle: A long time ago, before the first Iraq war, there was a DARPA project that used lisp to predict fuel logistics to help with planning. Anyone know more about this? 2021-02-24T17:12:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T17:16:51Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-24T17:16:53Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:17:00Z warweasle: I read that it saved enough money to pay for all the previous DARPA projects up until then. 2021-02-24T17:17:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T17:18:05Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:18:59Z Josh_2: afternoon 2021-02-24T17:19:01Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T17:19:56Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:20:17Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-24T17:20:25Z surabax quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T17:21:21Z warweasle: Josh_2: Hello. 2021-02-24T17:21:31Z judson_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:21:43Z Alfr: jmercouris, I don't see what goes wrong in that what you've pasted, sorry. 2021-02-24T17:23:33Z Josh_2: Hows your work/projects coming along warweasle? 2021-02-24T17:26:36Z g3n713m4n2 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:26:44Z pyc: We can make a hard-coded list of records like this: (defvar *records* '((:name "alice" :age 30) (:name "bob" :age 31))). But what if I did this: (defvar *records2* '('(:name "alice" :age 30) (:name "bob" :age 31))). Will the second one lead to any problems in practice while further programming? 2021-02-24T17:27:05Z Bike: well, it's a different list. 2021-02-24T17:27:05Z pyc: Oops, typo in above question. Let me fix it and repost. 2021-02-24T17:27:23Z pyc: We can make a hard-coded list of records like this: (defvar *records* '((:name "alice" :age 30) (:name "bob" :age 31))). But what if I did this: (defvar *records2* '('(:name "alice" :age 30) '(:name "bob" :age 31))). Will the second one lead to any problems in practice while further programming? 2021-02-24T17:27:33Z Bike: still a different list. 2021-02-24T17:27:38Z Bike: 'x is short for (quote x). 2021-02-24T17:27:55Z Bike: ''x = (quote (quote x)). So for example (listp 'x) => nil, but (listp ''x) => T. 2021-02-24T17:27:55Z jackdaniel: '('(:name "foo")) is a list ((quote (:name "foo")) 2021-02-24T17:27:59Z jackdaniel: probably not what you'd expect 2021-02-24T17:28:08Z pyc: Is the second one that has quoted list inside quoted list uncommon in real world Lisp programming? 2021-02-24T17:28:14Z Bike: yes. 2021-02-24T17:28:25Z Bike: Not much point in quoting it unless it's going to be evaluated. 2021-02-24T17:28:30Z jackdaniel: it is Uncommon Lisp 2021-02-24T17:29:16Z pyc: Haha! 2021-02-24T17:29:52Z Noir quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T17:30:08Z warweasle: Josh_2: I couldn't work on it last night. Could barely move. 2021-02-24T17:30:17Z Noir joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:32:09Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:32:16Z g3n713m4n2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T17:34:29Z Josh_2: Ah thats unfortunate 2021-02-24T17:41:53Z pyc: which pastebin is popular in this channel? 2021-02-24T17:42:51Z beach: plaster.tymoon.edu 2021-02-24T17:43:33Z pyc: beach: neither http://plaster.tymoon.edu nor https://plaster.tymoon.edu opens for me 2021-02-24T17:43:41Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T17:43:48Z beach: er, .eu 2021-02-24T17:43:50Z beach: sorry. 2021-02-24T17:44:00Z pyc: thanks 2021-02-24T17:45:30Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:47:19Z pyc: Please provide advice on proper coding style: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2314 From code I have seen I think *records2* is the right style. What about the other two styles? Are they outright unacceptable? 2021-02-24T17:47:28Z Josh_2: eew 2021-02-24T17:47:35Z Josh_2: number 2 is my choice 2021-02-24T17:48:01Z beach: pyc: Yes, nobody writes code like that. 2021-02-24T17:48:14Z beach: pyc: `(' is never followed by whitespace. 2021-02-24T17:48:27Z beach: pyc: ')' is never preceded by whitespace. 2021-02-24T17:48:48Z beach: ... well, *almost* never. 2021-02-24T17:48:56Z g3n713m4n2 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:49:32Z pyc: Josh_2: beach: thanks. so my suspicion was right. I guess I have to get used to this style. I was tempted to put some whitespace to demarcate each record clearly but looks like that's not the style. 2021-02-24T17:49:40Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:49:45Z Alfr: beach, #\newline and #\return are whitespace. ;) 2021-02-24T17:49:49Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T17:49:52Z pyc: It appears to me that the correct style is to treat the parentheses as invisible. As if the parentheses are just not there, so not worry about them at all. 2021-02-24T17:50:09Z Josh_2: The parens inform the reader about more than just the style 2021-02-24T17:50:12Z beach: Alfr: Exactly. And `(' is never followed by newline. 2021-02-24T17:50:17Z Noir quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-24T17:50:23Z beach: Alfr: And `)' is never preceded by newline. 2021-02-24T17:50:25Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:50:42Z beach: pyc: Open pretty much any good book on Common Lisp and you will see that these rules are followed. 2021-02-24T17:50:46Z Josh_2: with record 2, you could just put a newline between each entry in the list 2021-02-24T17:50:55Z pyc: beach: yes, PCL follows the style you recommended 2021-02-24T17:51:18Z beach: pyc: And PAIP, and "gentle" and "ANSI Common Lisp", and, and ... 2021-02-24T17:51:25Z Alfr: beach, with these clarifications, I'm happy now. ;) 2021-02-24T17:51:28Z pyc: Josh_2: yes, but the first record is still attached to the opening '(. I was trying to demarcate that too but looks like that is not a good idea as per coding style. 2021-02-24T17:51:55Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T17:52:03Z nullx002: .. 2021-02-24T17:52:20Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T17:52:55Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T17:53:09Z pyc: beach: you added "well, *almost* never". What is a situation where '(' has a following whitespace or ')' has a preceding whitespace? 2021-02-24T17:55:07Z pyc: Is there any Emacs/SLIME/Paredit command to take the ugly style of *records* or *records3* at https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2314 and automatically reformat them in the *records2* style? 2021-02-24T17:56:02Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T17:57:29Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:00:08Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T18:03:52Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:04:16Z Noir joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:05:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T18:05:41Z g3n713m4n2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-24T18:07:53Z warweasle: I read a study by NAVSEA about comparing various languages. Lisp seemed thrown in as an afterthought and it seemed like they were pushing for Haskell. The Lisp programmer showed up late and then cranked out the code in a few hours and would have won the competition IF they thought lisp was a viable language. 2021-02-24T18:09:44Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T18:11:00Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:11:11Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:11:39Z warweasle: Always wondered who that was... 2021-02-24T18:15:03Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:15:27Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T18:15:57Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:19:16Z nullx002 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-24T18:19:43Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:23:15Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T18:23:28Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:23:48Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:24:00Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:24:13Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T18:24:25Z Noir quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-24T18:26:54Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T18:31:53Z jealousmonk: warweasle: that's interesting! do you have a link to this study? 2021-02-24T18:32:16Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T18:32:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:36:40Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:38:13Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T18:39:36Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:39:42Z markasoftware: If :lambda-list is passed to ensure-generic-function, and an :argument-precedence-order was previously set, is the argument-precedence-order discarded? 2021-02-24T18:39:56Z markasoftware: and reset to just the order of the required arguments in the lambda-list 2021-02-24T18:40:36Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T18:40:41Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T18:40:59Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:41:01Z nullx002 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T18:41:40Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:41:41Z markasoftware: ok i guess it is 2021-02-24T18:41:44Z markasoftware: i should have tested that before asking 2021-02-24T18:41:46Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:42:39Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-24T18:47:06Z amk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-24T18:47:41Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:47:45Z amk joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:48:55Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-24T18:52:50Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T18:54:19Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:54:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:54:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-02-24T18:54:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:56:53Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-24T18:59:48Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:00:33Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-24T19:01:22Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-24T19:04:50Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T19:04:51Z landakram joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:05:11Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:05:31Z amk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-24T19:09:43Z zxcvz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-24T19:09:54Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:10:28Z Jesin joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:14:40Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-24T19:15:34Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:15:50Z campy_fellow joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:17:15Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-24T19:18:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:20:40Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-24T19:20:53Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-02-24T19:21:10Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:23:36Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-24T19:25:41Z SAL9000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2021-02-24T19:26:55Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T19:29:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:29:22Z SAL9000 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:29:23Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:32:44Z nullx002 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-24T19:34:48Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:35:25Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:38:47Z beach: pyc: When the last thing before a `)' is a comment, the `)' must be on a separate line. 2021-02-24T19:42:59Z warweasle: In defmethod, I can I specify a particular array size? Like an array of matrices? Would that make the code faster? 2021-02-24T19:43:55Z dbotton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-24T19:44:18Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:44:25Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T19:44:38Z amk joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:48:03Z Josh_2: What do you mean? 2021-02-24T19:48:27Z Josh_2: You could define a type that is an array of a certain size and then use that as a type specifier in defmethod I suppose 2021-02-24T19:49:16Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T19:49:34Z Alfr: That won't work, method dispatch works with classes only---not types. 2021-02-24T19:49:48Z warweasle: Alfr: Ok, thanks! 2021-02-24T19:49:50Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-24T19:49:55Z Josh_2: oh right 2021-02-24T19:50:21Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T19:51:26Z midre joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:52:22Z Alfr: warweasle, but you can still write an optimized function (declare (type ..) ..) and arrange to call it if the type is correct (see typep). 2021-02-24T19:52:35Z dbotton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-24T19:53:02Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:53:11Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T19:53:45Z landakram quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T19:54:48Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-24T19:59:56Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T20:00:12Z warweasle: Alfr: I might do that later... If I need more speed. It's just a simple IIR filter so... 2021-02-24T20:07:27Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T20:09:09Z z3t0 quit (Quit: Free ZNC ~ Powered by LunarBNC: https://LunarBNC.net) 2021-02-24T20:10:56Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:12:16Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:13:27Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:14:12Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:15:35Z marcoxa joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:16:11Z marcoxa: Hi... I am trying circe. 2021-02-24T20:16:16Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T20:16:35Z marcoxa quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-24T20:17:21Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-24T20:17:31Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-24T20:17:37Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:17:48Z Cthulhux: good 2021-02-24T20:17:49Z Cthulhux: :D 2021-02-24T20:20:21Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:27:45Z Josh_2: Circe? 2021-02-24T20:31:39Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:34:39Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-24T20:36:42Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2021-02-24T20:36:59Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:38:11Z mathrick joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:41:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T20:42:24Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T20:43:45Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:43:52Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:44:45Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T20:45:45Z z3t0: the emacs client? 2021-02-24T20:47:30Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-24T20:47:53Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-24T20:53:32Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-24T20:57:50Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:59:39Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T20:59:56Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T21:03:24Z rogersm quit 2021-02-24T21:05:43Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-24T21:07:06Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-24T21:08:10Z z3t0 quit (Quit: Free ZNC ~ Powered by LunarBNC: https://LunarBNC.net) 2021-02-24T21:09:53Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 26.1) 2021-02-24T21:09:56Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-24T21:10:18Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-24T21:10:53Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-24T21:11:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T21:13:05Z z3t0 joined #lisp 2021-02-24T21:13:49Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-24T21:17:23Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-02-24T21:19:10Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-24T21:20:11Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-24T21:22:26Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-24T21:22:36Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-24T21:45:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-24T21:47:05Z dbotton_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-24T21:54:14Z eoyath quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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Just makes my head hurt with all the options and trying to interpret the reviews over time. Going to try 1am to start with. 2021-02-25T06:28:58Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-02-25T06:30:05Z beach: My theory is that the idea of an abstraction such as a "unit testing framework" is nonsensical, and that this is why there are so many of them and none of them can do everything that is needed. 2021-02-25T06:33:30Z beach: Take Flexichain, for instance. With most testing frameworks, I would have had to enumerate all possible situations, but the number of combinations that can happen between resizing, rotation, moving the gap is truly huge, and it would not be humanly possible to figure that out manually so that every combination is tested. 2021-02-25T06:33:58Z egp_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T06:33:58Z egp__ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T06:35:16Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T06:35:39Z beach: So instead, I wrote a trivial implementation of the same protocol, and I generate random operations using sort of a first-order Markov model. 2021-02-25T06:35:44Z lukego: Yeah. I'm thinking of starting with a combo of a dumb/convenient test-runner that can then call into a more "combinatorial" kind of a test case generator. I was thinking check-it but leaning towards just giving Screamer to find a bad case 2021-02-25T06:36:01Z beach: I then compare the result of the trivial implementation to the result of the real one. 2021-02-25T06:36:24Z beach: That way, I can test a gazillion combinations with only a page of testing code. 2021-02-25T06:37:01Z beach: And i memorize the sequence so that, if there is a bug, I can reproduce it. 2021-02-25T06:37:28Z beach: OK, so now give me the name of a testing framework that would give me support for this way of testing things, which I find way superior to enumerating individual tests maually. 2021-02-25T06:37:30Z beach: manually 2021-02-25T06:38:02Z beach: Oh, there isn't any? I guess I will have to write my own then, right? 2021-02-25T06:38:28Z lukego: well that's basically what quickcheck/check-it is about, right? 2021-02-25T06:38:43Z beach: I don't know. I use ASSERT. 2021-02-25T06:39:39Z beach: ASSERT is an excellent testing framework that has the additional advantage that it is in the Common Lisp standard. 2021-02-25T06:42:09Z nmg_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T06:42:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: fwiw, I just use 5am these days 2021-02-25T06:43:19Z nmg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T06:43:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I'm more interested in "oracle" tests: for the sort of code I write, I don't usually care if the tests are exhaustive as long as they run quickly and cast common mistakes I make when I write code. 2021-02-25T06:43:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/cast common mistakes/catch common mistakes/ 2021-02-25T06:52:59Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T06:56:25Z TMA quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T06:56:34Z pyc: Was there some quote about some language which said something like it makes easy problems easy and difficult problems possible to solve? Anyone remembers in what context or where this quote was said? 2021-02-25T07:01:31Z iskander- joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:01:33Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:03:14Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-25T07:04:14Z jackdaniel: the context was: lisp is a language where easy problems are trivial to solve, and hard problems are possible to solve (in contrast to easy problems are hard and hard problems are impossible to solve in /some/ languages) 2021-02-25T07:04:21Z jackdaniel: I don't remember where it came from though 2021-02-25T07:04:25Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T07:05:27Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-25T07:06:10Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-25T07:06:41Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:06:55Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:08:03Z lukego: beach: that's how check-it is supposed to work. you define generators for test data (e.g. sequences of editing operations) and invariants that must hold (e.g. model and real impl return same results.) then it makes a randomized search for inputs that fail. if it finds a failure then it moves on to "shrinking" i.e. trying to find a smaller version of the failing input (e.g. smaller numbers, shorter lists, etc) 2021-02-25T07:09:33Z lukego: beach: but check-it doesn't seem to have the "assert" part of testing. So you'd still need some way to organize tests e.g. give them names and have a way of running some/all of them. and 1am seems like a reasonable solution to that - just a page of code where a test is a function that's registered on the *tests* list. 2021-02-25T07:09:53Z fitzsim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T07:10:50Z lukego: ... and if I'm doing generator-driven testing then I'm also asking myself whether to use check-it, which is a relatively simple implementation tailored specifically for test-case generation, or Screamer, being more complex and more general (but potentially less suitable e.g. in how it navigates the search space) 2021-02-25T07:11:07Z zooey_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:12:19Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-25T07:13:22Z pyc: jackdaniel: found the exact quote. I read it in Practical Common Lisp. It is in chapter 1. >> Perl advocates like to say that Perl "makes easy things easy and hard things possible" and revel in the fact that, as the Perl motto has it, "There's more than one way to do it." 2021-02-25T07:13:44Z jackdaniel: ah, thanks 2021-02-25T07:14:56Z beach: lukego: Interesting. Thanks! 2021-02-25T07:18:54Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:21:35Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T07:22:40Z lukego: beach: this kind of "differential testing" you describe does sound pretty great to me. if you have two implementations and reason to believe they won't have the *same* bugs then it stands to reason that you can compare them to shake the bugs out of both. 2021-02-25T07:26:11Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:32:14Z lukego: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks for the datapoint. 5am does seem like a safe option. I'm a bit cautious just because it seems like quite a bit of code and probably a lot that doesn't apply to me e.g. I'm not connecting to databases and stuff 2021-02-25T07:35:17Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:36:07Z lukego: Hey if you wanted to check if all the strings in a list were the same length would it seem natural to write (all #'= #'length strings)? or what's idiomatic lisp for that? 2021-02-25T07:36:57Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:39:50Z beach: lukego: Exactly. It is highly unlikely that the two would behave in the same incorrect way. And since one is trivial (it is an "editable sequence" implemented as a list) it is already highly unlikely that that one will be incorrect in the first place. 2021-02-25T07:40:10Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:40:41Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-25T07:42:18Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:43:33Z xvzf joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:44:53Z lukego: I think I'll keep it stupid and write (apply #'= (mapcar #'length strings)) because ALL sounds like such a serious function name and I'd have to think too much about how it relates to existing functions like EVERY. 2021-02-25T07:46:02Z landakram quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-25T07:46:46Z lukego: Hey cool if there were a website like compiler explorer that would let you write a fragment of code, e.g. CALL-ARGUMENT-LIMIT, and shows you what it evaluates to in all major lisps 2021-02-25T07:47:25Z lukego: (or maybe a nix expression to do that would be easier except for licensing issues) 2021-02-25T07:50:46Z landakram joined #lisp 2021-02-25T07:53:28Z lukego: (or maybe just stick with sbcl) 2021-02-25T07:54:09Z jdz: lukego: I seem to remember Fare's CL launcher script had this as an example case. 2021-02-25T07:54:34Z jdz: lukego: https://www.cliki.net/cl-launch 2021-02-25T07:55:00Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T07:55:09Z lukego: jdz: neat :) 2021-02-25T07:55:13Z jdz: lukego: But you'd have to have all the implementations installed. 2021-02-25T07:56:03Z nullx002 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-25T07:56:23Z jdz: I'm both impressed and afraid of the cl-launch itself, though. 2021-02-25T07:56:58Z lukego: maybe Nix could handle that part. but it's not really an urgent problem for me, I'm not trying to write especially portable code, I just have a voice in my head saying "CALL-ARGUMENT-LIMIT" when I write things like (apply #'= ...) 2021-02-25T07:57:47Z jdz: lukego: Which should immediately trigger the "can't I use REDUCE, though?" question in your brain. 2021-02-25T07:58:47Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-25T08:02:05Z xvzf quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-25T08:05:03Z jackdaniel: or (every (curry #'= (first args)) (rest args)) 2021-02-25T08:07:10Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-25T08:07:30Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:07:41Z easye: That's some hot curry there... 2021-02-25T08:09:41Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:09:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:11:14Z epony joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:11:54Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-25T08:13:34Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-25T08:13:47Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:14:15Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:15:03Z lukego: oh I like the curry solution. I'm not sure how the REDUCE would look just because there are kinda two accumulators i.e. truthiness and target length 2021-02-25T08:17:05Z jdz: Yes, in this case REDUCE fails. 2021-02-25T08:17:30Z lukego: maybe some kind of (reduce #'assert= strings :key #'length) but unlikely to be the simplest solution 2021-02-25T08:18:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: lukego: you can put the two accumulators in a datastructure of some kind. e.g. (list acc1 acc2) or something 2021-02-25T08:18:23Z lukego: (= (reduce #'min strings :key #'length) (reduce #'max strings :key #'length)) but now I'm just being silly. 2021-02-25T08:18:32Z jdz: In my opinion (every #'= (mapcar #'length ...)) is OK. 2021-02-25T08:18:48Z anticrisis quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-25T08:19:01Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:19:23Z jdz: I'd look for other solutions if performance matters (i.e., target list may be long). 2021-02-25T08:20:18Z lukego: I'm mostly thinking of the norvig/pitman "rule of english translation." I want to check that "strings all have equal length." so (all-equal-length strings) would be good but that's a whole function. (all #'equal #'length strings) would be fine except that such an ALL function doesn't exist. 2021-02-25T08:21:15Z jdz: (defun all-same (sequence &key key test) ...). 2021-02-25T08:21:20Z lukego: but, meta-solution, the real problem here is that I feel a lot of pressure to keep my unit test code hyper-concise so that it doesn't distract from the actual implementation code, but I'll solve that by just putting it in another file and letting it grow as much as it needs to. 2021-02-25T08:21:25Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T08:22:07Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T08:22:08Z lukego: that feels better already. 2021-02-25T08:23:40Z lukego: I actually enjoy this kind of obsessing about Lisp programming. it seems like one of the few languages where you can actually get value out of it. the returns may be diminishing but there's *is* always a better way that you can find... 2021-02-25T08:24:15Z totoro2021 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T08:25:34Z totoro2021 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:26:30Z jdz: The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquillity it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed. The test of the machine's always your own mind. There isn't any other test. — Robert M. Pirsig, Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance 2021-02-25T08:26:37Z pagnol joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:27:29Z lukego: Great quote. Pity about the whole descent-into-madness connotation but I'll take it :) 2021-02-25T08:29:57Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:33:22Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:34:44Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-25T08:35:25Z fouric quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T08:38:42Z fouric joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:38:45Z xvzf joined #lisp 2021-02-25T08:39:07Z landakram quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T08:52:29Z lukego: I'd quite like to adopt using CURRY but it seems like I'll often want to curry things that are macros rather than functions. The nearest solution that comes to mind is Serapeum's OP macro. 2021-02-25T08:55:44Z lukego: like I was happy with a test case (every #'is *valid-examples*) but then how to test *invalid-examples* not as (is E) but (signals error E) 2021-02-25T08:55:51Z lukego: where signals is a macro 2021-02-25T08:57:14Z lukego: though my first example is a bit weird, calling EVERY for side effects, since #'is does an assertion 2021-02-25T08:58:25Z fouric quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-25T09:00:36Z lukego is in exactly the right frame of mind for cruising serapeum docs... 2021-02-25T09:02:22Z lukego: (oh ahem and 1AM:IS is actually also a macro and not a function) 2021-02-25T09:02:44Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:06:29Z fouric joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:07:41Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:10:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-25T09:10:45Z xvzf quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-25T09:12:49Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-25T09:16:45Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:18:05Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T09:23:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-25T09:24:25Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:24:27Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-25T09:24:51Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:25:58Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-25T09:28:31Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-25T09:28:37Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T09:29:10Z GZJ0X_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T09:29:31Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:29:47Z lukego: So I'm not really satisfied with with LOOP nor with classics like DOLIST. Is ITERATE the only other real game in town? 2021-02-25T09:32:06Z jackdaniel: (defmacro do-bi-do-bi-da (…) `(do …)) ; utlimate game in town 2021-02-25T09:32:25Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T09:32:41Z drbluefall chuckles 2021-02-25T09:32:52Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:33:40Z lukego: FOR looks interesting https://shinmera.github.io/for/ 2021-02-25T09:34:11Z beach: lukego: LOOP is fine for most cases. What problem do you have with it? I mean, it has the advantage of being in the standard, so that no external dependency is needed. 2021-02-25T09:34:29Z heisig: lukego: There is also the series package. And plain old recursion :) 2021-02-25T09:35:09Z lukego: SERIES does CPS though right, or am I mixing it up with Screamer? I want to keep the bulk of my code compatible with the SLIME debugger 2021-02-25T09:35:56Z lukego: beach: Yeah. I'd usually use LOOP but pn this project I'm okay with taking on dependencies and being a bit idiosyncratic. I'm having two common issues with loop - 2021-02-25T09:35:59Z pranavats: I don't think SERIES provides any equivalent of continuations. 2021-02-25T09:36:33Z lukego: One is code moving towards the right margin of the screen. Maybe though this is me not taking full advantage of the quirks of the Emacs indentation of LOOP somehow. 2021-02-25T09:37:19Z lukego: The other is having to nest loops - causing more indentation - when I want to iterate not in parallel but as in (dotimes (y height) (dotimes (x width) ...)) when e.g. "list comprehensions" kind of abstractions would do that in one go 2021-02-25T09:37:30Z beach: lukego: The clauses should be aligned. If not something is wrong. 2021-02-25T09:38:48Z beach: lukego: I also find myself saving indentation by introducing a FOR clause, using it as a LET*. 2021-02-25T09:38:49Z lukego: I basically want to have two spaces of indentation in the bodies of my loops, in the spirit of &body, but that's not always easy to get with LOOP. 2021-02-25T09:39:09Z beach: Yeah, I can't help you with that. 2021-02-25T09:39:23Z lukego: This FOR macro linked above ^ seems to have a neat solution to that i.e. having a more LET-style syntax 2021-02-25T09:49:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's completely undocumented so far, but I really like transducers for this: you right your code with functions like MAPCAR/REMOVE-IF-NOT but you skip all the intermediate lists 2021-02-25T09:50:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/data-lens/blob/master/t/transducers.lisp#L246-L252 2021-02-25T09:52:09Z catt joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:54:10Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-25T09:54:24Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:54:40Z edgar-xyz joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:54:44Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:55:03Z wxie1 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:55:20Z madnificent_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:55:22Z penguwin5 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:55:42Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:55:46Z jurov_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:55:54Z t3hyoshi_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:55:55Z datajerk_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:56:09Z herlocks- joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:56:51Z Cthulhux` joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:57:21Z markasoftware_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:57:34Z justinmcp_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:58:11Z dwts_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:58:17Z froggey_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:58:26Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:58:27Z guaqua_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:58:29Z engblom_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:58:51Z hiredman_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T09:59:38Z luis6 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:00:07Z SAL9000_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:00:24Z jxy_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:00:26Z sukaeto1 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:00:34Z yCrazyEdd joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:00:34Z phantomics_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:00:38Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:00:41Z ramus_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:00:55Z acolarh_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:01:31Z xlei_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:02:02Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:02:21Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:03:09Z aeth quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:09Z attila_lendvai quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:09Z pve quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:10Z wxie quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:10Z pankajsg quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:11Z vegansbane6963 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:11Z Lord_of_Life quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:13Z SAL9000 quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:14Z CrazyEddy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:14Z jprajzne quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:15Z froggey quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:15Z dwts quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:17Z edgar-rft quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:17Z madnificent quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:17Z engblom quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:19Z ramus quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:19Z luis quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:19Z datajerk quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:20Z jxy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:20Z jurov quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:21Z penguwin quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:21Z phantomics quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:23Z thecoffemaker quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:25Z markasoftware quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:28Z Cthulhux quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:29Z t3hyoshi quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:30Z acolarh quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:31Z Oladon quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:32Z xlei quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:32Z guaqua quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:33Z herlocksholmes quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:33Z justinmcp quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:34Z hiredman quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:34Z sukaeto quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-25T10:03:35Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-25T10:03:37Z penguwin5 is now known as penguwin 2021-02-25T10:03:37Z luis6 is now known as luis 2021-02-25T10:03:37Z xlei_ is now known as xlei 2021-02-25T10:03:37Z thecoffemaker_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:03:38Z yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy 2021-02-25T10:03:38Z wxie1 is now known as wxie 2021-02-25T10:03:53Z lukego: I'm actually fine with having lots of intermediate lists, I'm mostly looking for something that feels a bit poetic. 2021-02-25T10:04:25Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:05:25Z lukego: heisig: Thanks for the reminder of plain old recursion :). That's how I'd write e.g. Scheme code quite happily. Maybe with serapeum macros like NLET and COLLECTING that can be poetic too. 2021-02-25T10:05:57Z zmv- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-25T10:05:57Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-25T10:06:53Z rme joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:07:41Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:07:53Z SAL9000_ is now known as SAL9000 2021-02-25T10:08:25Z lukego: though NLET has this weird tail-position-only restriction and using ordinary recursion risks creating big control stacks that are boring to look at in the debugger. 2021-02-25T10:08:32Z lukego: food for thought on a dog walk... 2021-02-25T10:09:03Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:09:29Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:13:57Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-25T10:14:19Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T10:14:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:15:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:16:19Z phantomics_ quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2021-02-25T10:16:40Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:26:33Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:28:06Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:29:16Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T10:29:16Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-25T10:29:36Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-25T10:29:40Z xvzf joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:39:31Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T10:40:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:54:56Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:57:22Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-25T10:58:08Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T10:59:02Z lukego: Hey what's a neat way to write (cdr (assoc key a-list)) such that it errors when the key is not found? 2021-02-25T10:59:38Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-25T11:00:07Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-25T11:01:35Z lukego: first thought was (assert (cdr (assoc key a-list))) but assert returns nil 2021-02-25T11:02:36Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-25T11:02:40Z Nilby: I might just say (or ... (error ...)) 2021-02-25T11:04:25Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:04:49Z lukego: yeah just a bit wordy 2021-02-25T11:05:02Z lukego: could factor it into an assoc function that errors I guess 2021-02-25T11:05:34Z beach: That's the good solution. 2021-02-25T11:05:43Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:05:51Z lukego: I'd hoped to find one in serapeum but nearest is assocdr that includes the cdr 2021-02-25T11:05:59Z beach: Nilby's solution violates the expectations according to page 13 of the LUV slides. 2021-02-25T11:06:38Z beach: OR takes Boolean values and the return value of ASSOC is not a Boolean. It is either something useful, or a default value that happens to be NIL. 2021-02-25T11:07:13Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-25T11:07:13Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-25T11:07:59Z beach: lukego: Presumably, you want to hide the fact that you have an alist anyway, and present it as a dictionary. Then the protocol function would do the ASSOC and check for NIL. 2021-02-25T11:08:37Z marcoxa joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:08:51Z marcoxa: '(good afternoon) 2021-02-25T11:08:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: You'd need to distinguish NIL as a value of an existing key 2021-02-25T11:09:15Z lukego: This is some low-brow code where I'm happy to be concrete that it's an alist. Though having said that, it's the concreteness I want, not necessarily the a-list. Maybe I can punt and just use a function instead. 2021-02-25T11:09:16Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Why? 2021-02-25T11:09:20Z lukego: then ECASE inside the function 2021-02-25T11:09:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: well, if NIL is a valid value for a key, you don't want to error when the key is present but associated with nil 2021-02-25T11:09:59Z beach: Hello marcoxa. 2021-02-25T11:10:27Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I think the discussion was about return values and not about keys. Am I wrong? 2021-02-25T11:11:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think so (assoc :a '((:a . nil))) isn't equivalent to (assoc :a ())? 2021-02-25T11:11:31Z xvzf quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-25T11:11:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sorry, "value for a key" is ambiguous, I think 2021-02-25T11:11:41Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: But NIL is not a key yere. 2021-02-25T11:11:43Z beach: here 2021-02-25T11:11:53Z beach: Oh, you said "value for a key" sorry. 2021-02-25T11:12:03Z beach: Yes, indeed. 2021-02-25T11:12:29Z lukego: (~> text (scan) (parse) (make-object)) ;; I'm enjoying some serapeum indulgence :) 2021-02-25T11:12:33Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-25T11:13:02Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:18:49Z lukego: sorry about the rapid-fire but is there any setf-family macro like (updatef str #'string-upcase) ? short for (setf str (string-upcase (getf str))) 2021-02-25T11:19:16Z xvzf joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:20:40Z xvzf quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-25T11:21:56Z moon-child: (defmacro updatef (x f) `(setf ,x (funcall ,f ,x))) 2021-02-25T11:22:06Z Nilby: The best use of my advice is to get someone else to tell you the right way. 2021-02-25T11:23:05Z lukego: moon-child: yeah. just wondering there's a reason it doesn't already exist e.g. in alexandria which has maxf/minf/nconcf/etc. 2021-02-25T11:24:26Z lukego: though looking at that code ^ mulitple evaluations of x will be an issue so maybe it's hard 2021-02-25T11:24:35Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:24:37Z moon-child: yes 2021-02-25T11:25:00Z lukego: I'll find another formulation for now 2021-02-25T11:26:26Z lukego: w00t! cache hit! the next thing I was going to ask about already exists in serapeum under the name MAPPLY :) 2021-02-25T11:27:01Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:27:03Z zmv- joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:29:02Z splittist: there's probably a semantically more accurate way of describing what you're doing than UPCASE-PLIST-VALUE-IN-PLACE 2021-02-25T11:29:56Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:30:08Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T11:30:34Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:33:04Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-25T11:33:15Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:34:43Z lukego: Yeah. I have a list of lists ((#\X 0 0 1 1) ..) and I want to map that character in the first element position to a longer and more meaningful name e.g. #\X -> :XYLOPHONE. 2021-02-25T11:35:34Z lukego: though I realize that I want to change some of the numbers too and then (mappend (op (ch x0 y0 x1 y1) ...) ...) seems reasonable 2021-02-25T11:39:32Z lukego: also... now that I start accumulating some unit tests it looks an awful lot like design-by-contract... like the tests are mostly just asserting things about the inputs and outputs to functions. maybe I should be using function types instead here. 2021-02-25T11:42:49Z lukego: Can you use declaimed function types for design-by-contract in practice? What do I need to do to get SBCL to promise to check types like this at runtime? 2021-02-25T11:43:34Z lukego: (declaim (ftype (function (t) (satisfies 'valid-foo)) create-foo)) 2021-02-25T11:48:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: CHECK-TYPE will force it to do so 2021-02-25T11:49:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, that's a bit annoying 2021-02-25T11:49:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you want Eiffel-style contracts, there's this: https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo 2021-02-25T11:49:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or just :before/:after methods on generic functions 2021-02-25T11:53:11Z lukego: Just experimentally declaring function types seems to work when I set optimize of SAFETY >= 1 2021-02-25T11:53:34Z moon-child: beach: that very document later (pg84) uses ‘or’ to supply a default value. Dogma is failure 2021-02-25T11:53:49Z estest: lukego: Here's what the manual says: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Declarations-as-Assertions 2021-02-25T11:54:06Z lukego: I'll take a look at the DBC library. It would be kind of nice separation of concerns if the implementation if self-testing and the test code mostly just needs to feed it inputs and let it selftest 2021-02-25T11:55:15Z lukego: estest: thanks I didn't know the docs were so good! 2021-02-25T11:55:59Z jackdaniel: but that's true only on sbcl 2021-02-25T11:56:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-25T11:56:27Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:56:34Z lukego: that's probably good enough for me 2021-02-25T11:56:39Z amk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T11:56:47Z amk joined #lisp 2021-02-25T11:57:59Z jackdaniel: I'm sorry to hear that, I thought that you are writing common lisp ;p 2021-02-25T11:58:14Z lukego: me? never :) 2021-02-25T11:58:26Z jackdaniel: in common lisp* 2021-02-25T11:59:23Z lukego: yeah nah in my own application code I prefer to limit the number of variables, e.g. platforms and compilers, to as narrow as possible. I'm not writing libraries for other people here. 2021-02-25T12:00:24Z lukego: and I suppose that I _am_ writing common lisp code if I specify the detailed types of my key functions using Common Lisp type declarations, it's not my fault if some compilers choose to ignore that :) 2021-02-25T12:01:01Z jackdaniel: declare is described in the standard as a "promise to the compiler", not a safety measure 2021-02-25T12:01:30Z jackdaniel: (in fact, the contrary, using declare is unsafe in its spirit) 2021-02-25T12:03:28Z lukego: ok that's on me then. but that's always been my development philosophy. cheat as much as possible to get the program to the point where it is worth porting, rather than get distracted with portability and risk that the program doesn't get finished at all 2021-02-25T12:04:14Z lukego: easier to port a working non-portable program than to finish an incomplete portable program. 2021-02-25T12:05:46Z jackdaniel: I'm not convinced that this is a proper justification of sloppy declarations, but it is your program so there is no need for me to be convinced ,) 2021-02-25T12:09:07Z splittist: Why is CHECK-TYPE annoying? 2021-02-25T12:10:22Z lukego: Just seems like it will lead to more clutter to me. I'm already putting effort into untangling my test cases from my application logic so that I can look at each one in peace from the other 2021-02-25T12:10:45Z drbluefall quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-25T12:11:08Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T12:11:26Z lukego: (make-foo :x 1 :y 1) verses (let ((foo (make-foo :x 1 :y 1) (check-type foo (satisfies valid-foo?)) foo) 2021-02-25T12:11:29Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T12:11:39Z lukego: sorry for bad syntax 2021-02-25T12:12:08Z jackdaniel: why can't you validate directly in the constructor? 2021-02-25T12:12:49Z lukego: I guess that's hard to answer since it depends on how initialization is done and how much depends on the context of the callre 2021-02-25T12:13:05Z shka_: check-type is the right thing to use for the type checking in CL 2021-02-25T12:14:15Z shka_: sometimes you ought to use declare, but it is mostly for performance 2021-02-25T12:14:21Z lukego: Maybe. There's also e.g. the quid-pro-quo library that provides another valid solution, which has a nice separation-of-concerns feel about it to me, but that's not in quicklisp and frankly has quite a bit of machinery in its implementation. 2021-02-25T12:14:39Z shka_: oh, yeah, quip-pro-quo is awesome 2021-02-25T12:14:51Z shka_: i highly recommend it 2021-02-25T12:15:03Z lukego: there are also around methods and before methods and after methods... so don't tell me there isn't more than one way to do it thankyouverymuch :) 2021-02-25T12:15:35Z jackdaniel: there are many ways to do that, it is just declare is not one ^_^ 2021-02-25T12:15:46Z shka_: well, you can CHECK-TYPE in after method :D 2021-02-25T12:16:07Z shka_: but yes, declare is not reliable solution 2021-02-25T12:16:10Z jackdaniel: around if you are interested in the function result 2021-02-25T12:16:27Z jackdaniel: and if you want to validate argument, that would be probably a before method 2021-02-25T12:16:37Z splittist: Who knows what those crazy sbcl folks will do next? 2021-02-25T12:16:50Z shka_: jackdaniel: that's how quid-pro-quo works, actually 2021-02-25T12:16:58Z shka_: tremendously useful 2021-02-25T12:20:03Z estest: Making use of SBCL's behavior of type checking declares is a nice bonus of developing in SBCL, much like its generally fast assembly output (especially when you declare types) is a nice bonus, though if your program actually should rely on types being checked, an explicit check-type or some other mechanism is a good idea. 2021-02-25T12:22:24Z lukego: quid-pro-quo seems to be not in quicklisp, and to have dependencies that are also not in quicklisp, which is a bit of a enthusiasm damper 2021-02-25T12:24:42Z pegu joined #lisp 2021-02-25T12:25:11Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T12:25:31Z shka_: damn 2021-02-25T12:25:32Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T12:25:38Z shka_: it used to be in quicklip 2021-02-25T12:27:07Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T12:27:13Z pyc: Need feedback with code style: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2316 I have auto-fill-mode enabled, so as I type long strings, Emacs automatically inserts line-breaks. Is this good code formatting? I am curious about the two spaces that Emacs has inserted as prefix after each line-break. 2021-02-25T12:27:21Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-25T12:27:26Z lukego: and trying to load it is giving me a "This is probably a bug in SBCL itself" error involving metaclass compilation, which sure does play into my "gee that looks like a lot of implementation machinery" first impression 2021-02-25T12:27:36Z estest: I also find leaning on the implementation against portability to only be worth it when you need a particular feature it has for which there's not a good portability layer. Like why use sb-thread:make-thread when bordeaux-threads exists. Otherwise being portable and even testing in other implementations from time to time doesn't really slow me down, and can sometimes find tricky bugs earlier. 2021-02-25T12:28:06Z lukego: estest: yeah that sounds pragmatic. 2021-02-25T12:28:43Z lukego: Just now I'm only trying to find a sufficiently pleasant way to write testing code such that I will actually do it. The main barrier to instrumenting my code with tests is clutter and verbosity. 2021-02-25T12:28:58Z lukego: (and now also metaclass compilation bugs but I'll treat that as a dead-end...) 2021-02-25T12:31:31Z lukego: Maybe a good CL lawyer can help me find an acceptable formulation of the serapeum:-> function type declaration macro, such that function type declarations are strictly for documentation purposes, and any utility in the form of test coverage on SBCL is purely accidental 2021-02-25T12:33:50Z lukego: (and in truth I'd expect the really proper test coverage to come from approaches like beach outlined, with high-level functional testing, and what I'm trying to supplement that with now is just some scaffolding to help me get the nuts and bolts right before the structure is in place) 2021-02-25T12:34:29Z shka_: lukego: ok, so ftype declaration serve the following purpose 2021-02-25T12:34:39Z shka_: first: it allows for efficient type inference 2021-02-25T12:35:09Z heisig: lukego: For my last project, I defined my own document-[function,variable,...] macros that expand into (setf (documentation ...) ...) and some fancy extras. 2021-02-25T12:35:13Z shka_: secondly: it allows implementation to use the inferred types to warn when you are using aref on list ans so one 2021-02-25T12:35:53Z shka_: however, you should not count on these to give you runtime errors when types mismatch 2021-02-25T12:35:55Z heisig: One such extra was that it would take a list of forms and add them (and the results of evaluating them) as examples to the documentation string. 2021-02-25T12:36:09Z estest: pyc: I'd prefer the spacing to align the text with the first character of the string, i.e. the A in "Alice is.." is on the same column as the b in "been working". 2021-02-25T12:36:24Z shka_: heisig: did the same, documentation-utils-extensions 2021-02-25T12:36:35Z estest: But I'd only do that for docstrings or strings I know will be processed for display and have the newlines/lead spacing taken care of; for a raw record your example suggests you probably don't want newlines in the source string, so consider letting it be long (and word-wrapping) or concatenating broken up bits... 2021-02-25T12:36:42Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T12:37:40Z shka_: lukego: so in summary, ftype declarations are useful in a certain context, but not beyond it 2021-02-25T12:37:48Z cage_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-25T12:37:56Z pyc: estest: thanks 2021-02-25T12:38:21Z shka_: therefore, it is worthwhile to use them, but one must be careful to not misuse 2021-02-25T12:38:45Z lukego: shka_: that sounds reasonable. but if I'm honest I'm thinking of them as assertions that can be allowed to propagate (and inhibited from doing so in performance sensitive contexts) 2021-02-25T12:38:59Z shka_: my personal rule of thumb is to use ftype declarations for internal functions, but not for the interface functions 2021-02-25T12:39:04Z lukego: I'll see how I go, probably they are not actually the right tool for the job, but ask me again in ten minutes.. 2021-02-25T12:39:22Z shka_: well, they are not assertions 2021-02-25T12:39:40Z shka_: don't consider them to be any good for runtime 2021-02-25T12:40:35Z shka_: use check-type for stuff that is expected to be called by the user, you may use ftype and declare for the internal stuff (though, at least initially check-type is not a bad idea either) 2021-02-25T12:40:50Z zmv- is now known as notzmv 2021-02-25T12:41:02Z notzmv quit (Changing host) 2021-02-25T12:41:02Z notzmv joined #lisp 2021-02-25T12:41:41Z shka_: besides, sbcl can deduce returned function type even without the explicit declarations 2021-02-25T12:42:03Z shka_: if it is possible, at least 2021-02-25T12:42:10Z shka_: which often is not 2021-02-25T12:42:38Z lukego: yeah but there are types and then there are types e.g. I might want to provide a (satisfies foo) type that's stricter than what sbcl would infer. 2021-02-25T12:42:44Z shka_: anyway, i am saying this because that's what i do and it seems to work just fine 2021-02-25T12:43:38Z lukego: but maybe it's time for me to "read the room" and see that SBCL-specific hacks are not popular topics for discussion in here even in the early freewheeling days of a project that are always spent trying out and discarding bad ideas anyway 2021-02-25T12:44:35Z shka_: lukego: well, in that case you may define returned type of the function, but check-type the input types 2021-02-25T12:45:18Z shka_: overall, simply don't think about type declaration as suitable for checking the input types 2021-02-25T12:45:26Z lukego: I'm much more attracted to out-of-band top-level declarations like (-> read-floorplan (string function) valid-floorplan)) than anything that adds multiple lines to the actual function definitions 2021-02-25T12:45:39Z lukego: but maybe that will pass, I have been too busy fighting with you guys to actually try it yet :) 2021-02-25T12:46:21Z lukego: that's an extreme position since I'm using SBCL and SBCL says that it treats types as assertions and guarantees that they will be tested under specific conditions that I can ensure 2021-02-25T12:46:22Z shka_: well, as i said, it is FINE for internal functions that are not exposed, it is NOT FINE for external functions 2021-02-25T12:46:40Z shka_: anyway, that's all i had to say 2021-02-25T12:53:02Z splittist: Having just reviewed a project of mine with function names like FROB and PROCESS I will refrain from giving further programming advice (: 2021-02-25T12:54:36Z lukego: One happy thought is that with any kind of test instrumentation in my application code - whether with CHECK-TYPE, or FTYPE, or QUID-PRO-QUO - I can probably throw away these boring unit tests that I've been writing. The main purpose of those is just to keep silly errors from propagating e.g. a function returning the wrong object and finding out later when it's hard to track down what happened. 2021-02-25T12:54:42Z lukego: splittist: :) 2021-02-25T12:55:51Z lukego: The situation I want to avoid is "oh, whoops, that innocent refactoring I did in PREINIT-FROB forgot to set the FIZZ slot, and that's why I have these twenty *sldb* buffers popping up all over the place 2021-02-25T12:56:26Z lukego: I should have known that if I found myself writing unit tests I was probably doing something wrong... 2021-02-25T12:56:46Z lukego: thanks for the vigorous exchange of ideas :) now, kids to collect... 2021-02-25T12:57:28Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-25T13:01:00Z marcoxa: pyc: looks good to me. 2021-02-25T13:01:39Z eoyath quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-25T13:04:38Z paulj joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:06:29Z kam1 quit (Quit: Quit) 2021-02-25T13:06:52Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:08:25Z TMA joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:09:13Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:14:43Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:17:23Z beach: moon-child: Right, let's abandon all attempts to make programs easier to maintain. 2021-02-25T13:18:15Z eoyath joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:26:36Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T13:27:55Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:29:07Z marcoxa: beach arent' we already programming in OOK ? https://common-lisp.net/project/ook/ 2021-02-25T13:29:11Z jackdaniel: sounds like a plan. /me starts writing a noise generator 2021-02-25T13:29:34Z marcoxa: jackdaniel the OOK compiler is at your service :) 2021-02-25T13:29:38Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:29:47Z jackdaniel: Ook! 2021-02-25T13:34:05Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T13:35:33Z pyc: marcoxa: do you know why Emacs decides to insert two spaces to indent all the continuation lines of my long string in the example I shared earlier: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2316#2316 2021-02-25T13:36:59Z beach: pyc: Emacs is not great when it comes to indenting Common Lisp code, but it's the best we have. 2021-02-25T13:37:07Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-25T13:37:10Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:37:50Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:37:52Z pyc: beach: thanks for the explanation 2021-02-25T13:38:10Z beach: Sorry to have to give you the bad news. 2021-02-25T13:38:15Z andreyorst: beach: I've thought that Emacs when used with SLIME or SLY gets some info from runtime to indent code more or less correctly? 2021-02-25T13:38:53Z andreyorst: and some hueristics like analyzing macros to contain argument named body 2021-02-25T13:38:56Z beach: andreyorst: Yes, but it is fundamentally broken, because of the way it decides what is code and what isn't. 2021-02-25T13:39:46Z andreyorst: can you share some examples? 2021-02-25T13:39:57Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:40:20Z andreyorst: I've never had too much trouble, though I don't write too much common lisp atm 2021-02-25T13:40:29Z beach: andreyorst: Try the following experiment: In a buffer in Lisp mode type (let ((aaaaaaa and observe the indentation of the next line 2021-02-25T13:40:49Z beach: andreyorst: Now type instead (let ((prog1 and observe again. 2021-02-25T13:41:12Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:41:19Z beach: Emacs incorrectly decides that the PROG1 in the second example is an operator. 2021-02-25T13:41:41Z beach: So it has not analyzed the text enough to know that we are dealing with a LET binding. 2021-02-25T13:42:20Z beach: That's just one example. 2021-02-25T13:43:46Z andreyorst: with let I don't see any problems, it aligns the indentation to last opened parenthesis 2021-02-25T13:43:58Z Nilby: The depth of my disgruntlement with Emacs is nearly unfathomable. But it's STILL the least sub-optimal. 2021-02-25T13:44:03Z andreyorst: the prog1 is weird indeed 2021-02-25T13:44:35Z beach: andreyorst: Not weird. It just takes (PROG1 to be the beginning of a special form. 2021-02-25T13:45:12Z andreyorst: yes, I understand, I just thought that it does a bit more analysis, and will think that prog1 is a binding, not a call, that's what kinda weird 2021-02-25T13:45:28Z andreyorst: seems like hardcoded indentation rule 2021-02-25T13:45:50Z beach: What is weird is that the broken technique it uses kind of works in so many cases. 2021-02-25T13:46:45Z splittist: Hasn't lukego finished swank-lsp yet? 2021-02-25T13:46:57Z splittist: (Just to be clear - I just made that up.) 2021-02-25T13:48:50Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:49:37Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-25T13:49:46Z Nilby: I've recently been trying out the "pretty printer" to format code, but as you may know, without some undiscovered tweaking, it mangles it. 2021-02-25T13:52:03Z tfb joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:52:13Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T13:52:28Z cchristiansen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T13:52:35Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:53:51Z Nilby: One of my faviorite semi-ironic quote from the spec is: "the necessary flexibility is provided for individual programs to achieve an arbitrary degree of aesthetic control." 2021-02-25T13:54:29Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:55:40Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-25T13:59:59Z Xach: Nilby: the pretty-printer seems to be underused to me. i would like more reading material on its use, including working examples from the past of neat uses. 2021-02-25T14:00:56Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:00:57Z kevingal_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T14:00:57Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T14:00:58Z Nilby: Xach: Me too! I've read the XP paper, but it tends to put me to sleep. 2021-02-25T14:01:42Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:01:47Z jackdaniel: I've been tracking the most mysterious bug ever a moment ago 2021-02-25T14:02:14Z jackdaniel: it was that the first definition was always ignored (of one particular macro) 2021-02-25T14:02:39Z jackdaniel: after investigating, and confiring with a second and a third implementation I was amused - the form was not expanded 2021-02-25T14:02:54Z jackdaniel: despite the macro being defined a few lines before 2021-02-25T14:03:43Z jackdaniel: after throughful investigation, and narrowing the test case to 10 lines of the code I've found it! a stray backquote at the end of the macro that looked exactly like 100 other pieces of dust on my monitor 2021-02-25T14:03:50Z jackdaniel: I'm going to cry in the kitchen :) 2021-02-25T14:04:31Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:04:52Z jackdaniel: (emacs colored this stray backquote in bronze and that matches the color of dust when highlighted by sun here, and makes it very blendable into the background) 2021-02-25T14:05:01Z Nilby: jackdaniel: lol, I've had the same thing happen, with a comma vs a dot and piece of dust in just the right place. 2021-02-25T14:06:33Z gitgood quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-25T14:06:42Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:06:43Z Nilby: Now I have a weird habbit of cleaning my screen when I'm tired and I get a macro bug. 2021-02-25T14:07:09Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T14:07:30Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:08:11Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-25T14:08:48Z Nilby: Maybe someone should invent a macro highlighting mode that enlarges punctuation. 2021-02-25T14:09:32Z Nilby: or like turns all commas red 2021-02-25T14:10:11Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T14:10:16Z _death: just avoid commas, backquotes, quotes, dots.. 2021-02-25T14:10:33Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:11:11Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T14:11:34Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:12:03Z Nilby: _death: are you suggesting we actually (quasi-unquote ...) and such? 2021-02-25T14:12:10Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T14:12:26Z jackdaniel: I think that it was a joke 2021-02-25T14:12:30Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:13:24Z Nilby: `(,@(got me)) 2021-02-25T14:16:14Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T14:16:35Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:16:35Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T14:17:13Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T14:17:16Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:20:04Z epony quit (Quit: upgrades) 2021-02-25T14:20:29Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:21:41Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-25T14:21:45Z _death: there was an old (Lisp Pointers?) article on pretty printing Lisp to a Pascal-like.. there's also http://norvig.com/ltd/doc/tool.html#inside2 which I've not yet looked into much 2021-02-25T14:21:52Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:21:53Z dbotton quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-25T14:24:40Z _death: and SBCL has pretty printer rules for CL operators, though sometimes in the cryptic format notation :/ 2021-02-25T14:26:30Z caret joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:27:45Z Nilby: That Dylan pretty printer is quite an interesting example. 2021-02-25T14:28:24Z Nilby: thanks! 2021-02-25T14:29:50Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T14:30:36Z _death: there's also a reference there to the lisp->pascal example, but the link is broken.. so https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Richard-Waters/publication/242313131_Using_the_new_common_Lisp_pretty_printer/links/02e7e533effb0d1006000000/Using-the-new-common-Lisp-pretty-printer.pdf 2021-02-25T14:33:05Z paulj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T14:35:23Z _death: ah, better link https://www.merl.com/publications/docs/TR93-17.pdf 2021-02-25T14:36:12Z _death: that gives you an extra macroexpand-all 2021-02-25T14:37:04Z epony joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:37:51Z lukego: that old Waters article on Lisp->Pascal is by far the best example usage of PPRINT that I've seen 2021-02-25T14:38:01Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:38:07Z Nilby: Wow, thanks! this is awesome 2021-02-25T14:38:15Z lukego: but it still takes me at least 20 tries to use ~< correctly in a format string and I usually give up before that point... 2021-02-25T14:40:32Z _death: since it's part 2, there must be a part 1: https://www.merl.com/publications/docs/TR91-04.pdf 2021-02-25T14:40:46Z imode joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:41:06Z _death: that gives you RT, COVER, and queues 2021-02-25T14:44:34Z Nilby: heh, I probably dodn't need to know more test frameworks, but RT is actually still used in places 2021-02-25T14:48:45Z _death: I wonder why no one writes an actual regression tester that stores the results the first time (or when told to) and compares to the new results.. I wrote something like that to test my solutions to puzzles like advent of code and rosalind (though I didn't store the results automatically).. then it can be extended to also test performance regressions 2021-02-25T14:51:58Z Nilby: I suppose for many things the results are t/nil, but beach was talking earlier about his markov chain fuzzer style testing. 2021-02-25T14:52:20Z Nilby: I think result saving is a good idea though. 2021-02-25T14:52:58Z caret_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T14:52:59Z caret quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-25T14:53:01Z caret_ is now known as caret 2021-02-25T14:54:53Z beach: Nilby: No, nothing fuzzy. It is just that I need for the same kind of operation to be repeated with some significant probability, like INSERT for instance. Otherwise, the Flexichain will forever remain short and the resizing operations won't be sufficiently tested. 2021-02-25T14:55:01Z _death: you can also keep the seed.. I can imagine a counterargument about sampling the problem state anew each time, but then maybe that means your samples are too small/uniform 2021-02-25T14:57:59Z Nilby: Hmmm. I guess randomized valid input isn't exactly the same as fuzzing with random invalid input. 2021-02-25T14:58:40Z beach: Right, not exactly the same. 2021-02-25T14:58:41Z _death: it's just for compression 2021-02-25T15:00:50Z Nilby: It's like those joke random sentence generators running the parser backwards, but with AMB or something. 2021-02-25T15:01:58Z _death: that MERL site also has some Waters publications about stochastic grammars ;) 2021-02-25T15:04:55Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T15:06:35Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:08:11Z Nilby: Nice find. There's some fascinating papers in there. (e.g. KBEmacs) 2021-02-25T15:08:29Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T15:09:30Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:10:12Z drl joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:11:12Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T15:11:41Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:11:46Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:14:03Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-25T15:18:59Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:19:19Z nij: Suppose I have a list of READable stuff. Is there a package that helps me edit this list by editting its content through an emacs buffer? 2021-02-25T15:22:49Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:26:47Z beach: What's wrong with PRINT followed by editing, followed by READ. 2021-02-25T15:28:15Z nij: beach: what do you mean by editing? 2021-02-25T15:28:43Z beach: I assumed you meant what you normally do in an Emacs buffer, like inserting and deleting characters. 2021-02-25T15:28:49Z nij: yep 2021-02-25T15:28:54Z beach: ... or words, or expressions. 2021-02-25T15:29:06Z nij: yep 2021-02-25T15:29:09Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:29:42Z nij: Editting the list (setf lst '(1 2 3)) by editting the buffer that contains "1\n2\n3". 2021-02-25T15:29:57Z nij: You can use your favorite keybindings to make change to that buffer 2021-02-25T15:30:05Z nij: and press a key to update the list 2021-02-25T15:31:54Z lukego: _death: I've written a performance regression tester a bit like that. spends hours running permutations of configurations and workloads on a system, collects all the data in a big CSV, allows you to do e.g. ANOVA to compare different software versions and say "hmm config option FOO is really slowing down workload BAR in the new release" 2021-02-25T15:33:57Z lukego: even hooked it into a CI that would automatically detect performance regressions. that was fun. 2021-02-25T15:34:56Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:40:18Z Cthulhux` quit (Changing host) 2021-02-25T15:40:19Z Cthulhux` joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:42:05Z _death: lukego: very cool.. I remember a post from a year ago about boinkmarks.. wonder what sbcl uses nowadays 2021-02-25T15:43:10Z lukego: beach: Hey, humble idea to borrow a leaf from your testing book, I realize that when I'm converting data from text to objects then an easy way to get testability might be just having a canonical print routine to turn it back to test. then I can e.g. (assert (string= (tostring x) (tostring (fromstring (tostring x)))) to differentially test the printer and reader against each other 2021-02-25T15:44:04Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:44:19Z lukego: so for example if I goofed and put a value in the wrong slot it'd be caught automatically, without me having to manually create examples with tests that know exactly how the object representation should look 2021-02-25T15:44:59Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:45:16Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T15:46:29Z beach: lukego: Sounds good. 2021-02-25T15:46:38Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:46:42Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-25T15:46:49Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-25T15:47:34Z save-lisp-or-die joined #lisp 2021-02-25T15:49:56Z Nilby: nij: there's slime-edit-value 2021-02-25T15:50:47Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-25T15:52:09Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-25T15:54:16Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T15:54:57Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T16:00:23Z zupss joined #lisp 2021-02-25T16:00:40Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-02-25T16:04:34Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T16:04:44Z tempuser43 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T16:06:11Z tempuser43 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T16:06:56Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T16:14:26Z zmv joined #lisp 2021-02-25T16:14:48Z zmv is now known as Guest56442 2021-02-25T16:28:25Z nij: Nilby: Gasp! Indeed :-O 2021-02-25T16:29:29Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-02-25T16:29:57Z nij: Now the only problem is to lispily format a long list such that the length of each row isn't more than, say, 80. 2021-02-25T16:34:52Z Demosthenex: hrm. anyone using clods-export? can't get text rotation to work. 2021-02-25T16:36:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-25T16:36:18Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-25T16:39:17Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-25T16:43:03Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-25T16:49:15Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-25T16:49:30Z jmercouris: if we have (reduce #'str:concat (loop for i from 0 to 10 collect "salmon")) 2021-02-25T16:49:33Z jmercouris: is there a better way? 2021-02-25T16:50:34Z jmercouris: instead of reducing, can I "accumulate" a string or something? 2021-02-25T16:50:47Z jmercouris: I could use a "with" and concatenate to it, I guess 2021-02-25T16:50:53Z jmercouris: I'm looking for something built-into loop though 2021-02-25T16:53:31Z Nilby: I usually use with-output-to-string in a loop. You could also just output to a string with a fill-pointer. 2021-02-25T16:53:44Z yoseph joined #lisp 2021-02-25T16:56:07Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-25T16:56:29Z Nilby: e.g. (let ((s (make-array 0 :element-type 'character :fill-pointer t))) (loop for i from 0 to 10 do (format s "salmon")) s) 2021-02-25T16:57:18Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-25T16:58:43Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-25T17:00:35Z jonatack quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-25T17:01:27Z kevingal_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T17:01:27Z kevingal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T17:02:23Z yoseph left #lisp 2021-02-25T17:07:02Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-25T17:08:26Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-25T17:09:27Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-25T17:10:14Z nij left #lisp 2021-02-25T17:13:39Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-02-25T17:15:23Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T17:17:17Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T17:17:17Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T17:17:34Z froggey_ is now known as froggey 2021-02-25T17:20:56Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T17:21:57Z GZJ0X_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-25T17:23:36Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T17:27:48Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-25T17:28:11Z jmercouris: Nilby: interesting solutions 2021-02-25T17:28:14Z jmercouris: thanks for sharing 2021-02-25T17:28:18Z jmercouris: I think I still prefer reduce 2021-02-25T17:28:31Z jmercouris: even if it is less efficient than others 2021-02-25T17:29:58Z varjagg is now known as varjag 2021-02-25T17:38:34Z shka_: jmercouris: use format 2021-02-25T17:39:09Z scoofy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T17:40:14Z estest quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-25T17:40:26Z shka_: jmercouris: (format nil "~{~a~}" (loop for i from 0 to 10 collect "salmon")) 2021-02-25T17:40:45Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-25T17:41:03Z shka_: or, even better, what Nilby recommended 2021-02-25T17:41:22Z estest joined #lisp 2021-02-25T17:42:00Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-25T17:42:32Z shka_: (with-output-to-string (stream) (loop for i from 0 to 10 do (format stream "salmon"))) 2021-02-25T17:42:39Z shka_: jmercouris: reduce is a really bad option here since concat will allocate new copy fo string for each element of the sequence being reduced 2021-02-25T17:42:48Z jdz: The nice thing about format is "~{~A~^, ~}". 2021-02-25T17:43:07Z shka_: also, technically speaking function passed to reduce should handle being called with 0, 1 or 2 arguments 2021-02-25T17:43:47Z shka_: and 0 is a problem 2021-02-25T17:46:17Z Nilby: The format one is slower actually than the reduce, but takes much less memory, but the with-output-to-string seems the fastest. 2021-02-25T17:49:01Z user51 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T17:49:02Z _death: shka: they will never be called with one argument, and you can provide an initial value to ensure they will never be called with no arguments 2021-02-25T17:49:12Z user51 left #lisp 2021-02-25T17:50:04Z Alfr_: ... or ensure that sequence is never empty, then it won't be called with zero arguments as well. 2021-02-25T17:51:07Z iskander- quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-25T17:51:41Z xanderle joined #lisp 2021-02-25T17:53:42Z hiredman_ is now known as hiredman 2021-02-25T17:54:24Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-25T17:55:54Z Iolo joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:01:18Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:03:41Z Alfr_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-25T18:04:03Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:05:49Z srhm joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:06:05Z srhm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T18:12:58Z shka_: Nilby: check with 1000 instead of 10 2021-02-25T18:13:18Z shka_: _death: yeah, you are right 2021-02-25T18:13:24Z attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 2021-02-25T18:13:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-02-25T18:13:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:15:34Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:15:38Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services) 2021-02-25T18:15:41Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-25T18:17:15Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:19:54Z Nilby: yow. reduce way is super blarg 2021-02-25T18:20:06Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-25T18:23:32Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-25T18:31:35Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-25T18:32:10Z jasom: with-output-to-string is definitely the idiomatic way to accumulate values into a string. 2021-02-25T18:32:51Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:33:17Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2021-02-25T18:36:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: jmercouris: (reduce (lambda (acc next) (format acc "~a" next)) seq :initial-value (make-array 10 :element-type 'character :fill-pointer 0)) 2021-02-25T18:36:52Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:37:14Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T18:37:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Reduce is just a loop with an accumulator, so if you control the initial value there's no reason not to mutate it :) 2021-02-25T18:37:35Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:38:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: If some FP purist complains, just explain that you're using dynamic linear types. 2021-02-25T18:38:36Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: but at that point why use reduce at all, and just put the mutation in the loop body? 2021-02-25T18:38:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: I like the structure of reduce 2021-02-25T18:39:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: for whatever reason, I prefer the way reduce reads to the alternatives 2021-02-25T18:39:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, the lambda has to be (lambda (acc next) ... acc) there 2021-02-25T18:50:08Z wanko joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:55:50Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:56:09Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-25T18:56:43Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-02-25T18:57:51Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:01:10Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:03:51Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T19:04:02Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:04:09Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-25T19:04:17Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-25T19:08:03Z wanko: hello, is it okay to ask beginner scheme questions here, or is there a different channel for that? 2021-02-25T19:09:38Z Bike: this is not a scheme channel. i think you want #scheme maybe 2021-02-25T19:10:13Z warweasle: Woot! I made a macro that amortizes long calls to files. 2021-02-25T19:10:19Z wanko: Bike: thanks 2021-02-25T19:21:20Z Sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T19:21:53Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:21:58Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:22:24Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:24:14Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T19:24:31Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:26:01Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T19:26:01Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T19:29:19Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T19:29:25Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:29:44Z jonatack_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-25T19:30:04Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:33:49Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:34:19Z drbluefall joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:35:32Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T19:35:38Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:37:04Z gioyik_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T19:37:30Z gioyik_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:39:27Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T19:39:33Z jonatack__ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:40:04Z jonatack__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T19:40:10Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:41:21Z domovod quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-25T19:42:01Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T19:42:06Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:43:40Z dbotton: Is there a function that "trims" off the last character off a string? 2021-02-25T19:44:09Z Inline: yes 2021-02-25T19:44:16Z Bike: you can use subseq for that. 2021-02-25T19:44:20Z dbotton: (I know subseq but complicates what I am writing) 2021-02-25T19:44:23Z Xach: dbotton: specific characters or any character? 2021-02-25T19:44:26Z dbotton: any 2021-02-25T19:44:35Z dbotton: I know also trim 2021-02-25T19:44:38Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T19:45:08Z Xach: subseq is the thing, and wrap it if the arguments aren't what you like 2021-02-25T19:46:25Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T19:46:29Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T19:46:31Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:46:43Z dbotton: I assume there is no way in lisp to "use" the sequence passed to subseq as part of an expression to calculate end? 2021-02-25T19:46:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:46:50Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T19:47:12Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:47:18Z dbotton: (subseq s 0 (- (length s) 1)) 2021-02-25T19:47:33Z dbotton: I just want to avoid needing to store s 2021-02-25T19:47:57Z jasom: dbotton: I think various utility libraries let you do python-style passing of negative values for subseq ranges. I can't speak to the quality of any of them though. 2021-02-25T19:48:15Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-25T19:48:22Z Xach: dbotton: (defun trim-last-char (s) (subseq s 0 (1- (length s))) is what i might do if i didn't a cluttered expression 2021-02-25T19:49:08Z dbotton: Thanks 2021-02-25T19:50:43Z zdm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T19:56:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-25T19:57:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: (coerce (butlast (coerce string 'list)) 'string) :) 2021-02-25T19:58:14Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-25T19:58:15Z jasom: (reverse (subseq (reverse s) 1)) 2021-02-25T19:58:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Still has OOB issues :) 2021-02-25T19:58:42Z Bike: if you want to avoid consing up a new array, you'd have to use adjust-array, i guess 2021-02-25T19:59:25Z jasom: sorry, my previous post was inefficient: (nreverse (subseq (reverse s) 1)) 2021-02-25T20:00:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: #|The bounding indices 1 and NIL are bad for a sequence of length 0.|# 2021-02-25T20:00:29Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: but the original question was phrased in a way that assumes the sequence was of at least length 1 2021-02-25T20:00:58Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T20:01:03Z jonatack__ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T20:01:24Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T20:02:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T20:02:36Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T20:05:16Z jonatack__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-25T20:06:28Z nopolitica joined #lisp 2021-02-25T20:06:29Z Bike: oh, i thought maybe sbcl might do its magic shrink-vectors-even-if-they-don't-have-fill-pointers thing but i guess it's too messy 2021-02-25T20:12:57Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-25T20:14:01Z dbotton: All food for thought :) 2021-02-25T20:18:14Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-25T20:19:17Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-25T20:21:51Z ukari quit (Remote host closed 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It made me re-start learning Lisp." Thought I would share for those that help me 2021-02-25T20:54:51Z Xach_: dbotton: nice! that's always encouraging feedback. 2021-02-25T20:55:14Z Xach_ quit (Changing host) 2021-02-25T20:55:14Z Xach_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T20:55:20Z Xach_ is now known as Xach 2021-02-25T20:55:26Z markasoftware: sounds like a good time for anaphora :) 2021-02-25T20:55:47Z Xach: ptui! 2021-02-25T20:56:19Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T20:56:27Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-25T20:56:45Z alanz: dbotton, fwiw I am playing with a toy project on top of clog. As a learning exercise 2021-02-25T20:56:55Z eschatologist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T20:56:56Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-25T20:57:06Z loke[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T20:57:15Z markasoftware: (alet (make-the-string) (subseq it 0 (1- (length it)))) 2021-02-25T20:57:24Z alanz having zero web skills, its a challenge 2021-02-25T20:57:34Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-25T20:58:16Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T20:58:29Z z0d joined #lisp 2021-02-25T20:59:02Z dbotton: alanz is worth much 2021-02-25T20:59:25Z dbotton: Nothing encourages the creative process then someone appreciating it :) 2021-02-25T20:59:35Z dbotton: More then 2021-02-25T21:00:09Z alanz: I know, which is why I am speaking up. I love seeing it come together bit by bit, and appreciate the effort you put in to making clear, understandable code 2021-02-25T21:00:55Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:01:00Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:01:03Z even4void[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:01:14Z dbotton: Thanks :) 2021-02-25T21:01:33Z Alfr quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-25T21:02:11Z dbotton: what is alet 2021-02-25T21:02:33Z dbotton: (I used an flat and or or less the same code in the end) 2021-02-25T21:02:40Z dbotton: flet 2021-02-25T21:05:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-25T21:06:31Z susam joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:06:48Z dbotton: Alanz if you create something cool love a screen shot :) 2021-02-25T21:08:08Z caret quit (Quit: Bye Felicia) 2021-02-25T21:08:47Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:09:52Z dra_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:10:34Z dra_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-25T21:10:48Z dra joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:12:59Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:13:48Z alanz: dbotton, I got as far as using your tutorial 13 as a base. Now scratching my head wondering what the next thing to do is. The general idea is to help managing entries to https://www.facebook.com/saflowerunion/posts/4851293668246422 2021-02-25T21:13:54Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:14:47Z ms[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:15:04Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:15:47Z jdormit joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:16:22Z ey[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:16:34Z equwal joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:16:35Z quanta[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:18:24Z dieggsy joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:18:26Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:18:29Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:18:47Z deselby joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:18:54Z dbotton: Since an admin tool, maybe consider using tutorial 22 as your base and have a nice look desktop motif 2021-02-25T21:18:57Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:19:23Z dbotton: Then look at clod-db-admin in the tools directory for using databases with clog 2021-02-25T21:19:25Z ThaEwat joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:20:30Z alanz: thanks, will do so. I also see myself interacting with the local file system, and showinng pictures. So the desktop one is definitely a good basis 2021-02-25T21:20:50Z theothornhill[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:20:50Z sepanko_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:20:50Z cloudy[m] joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:21:53Z alanz: its going to be slow though, this is a back-burner project for me, which I am using to learn cl at the same time (from some experience with elisp) 2021-02-25T21:24:56Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T21:26:08Z dbotton: And that is why my plan is to do a CLOG Lisp tutorial, it is a cool way for people to learn because they see results right away 2021-02-25T21:27:06Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:27:09Z etimmons joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:27:25Z dbotton: Still hope someone with better language skills takes me up on project :) but if not I will do 2021-02-25T21:31:31Z dra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T21:31:32Z katco joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:32:51Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:33:02Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-25T21:35:20Z shinohai_ is now known as shinohai 2021-02-25T21:35:52Z alanz: you are doing fine, as far as I can see. Being active and enthusiastic is the most important thing, I reckon 2021-02-25T21:38:20Z jonatack__ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:40:41Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:44:25Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:44:40Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-25T21:45:06Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:45:40Z egp_ quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-02-25T21:46:02Z egp_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:48:35Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2021-02-25T21:48:45Z cosimone joined #lisp 2021-02-25T21:49:04Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-25T21:50:13Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-25T21:53:21Z jonatack__ quit (Quit: jonatack__) 2021-02-25T21:59:14Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-25T22:01:06Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-25T22:01:09Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-25T22:03:26Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-02-25T22:06:46Z earenndil is now known as moon-child 2021-02-25T22:09:23Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-25T22:11:11Z aeth joined #lisp 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timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T01:02:04Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T01:02:25Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-26T01:07:12Z ramus_ is now known as ramus 2021-02-26T01:09:35Z charles`: special-operators are annoying, yes? 2021-02-26T01:10:41Z Gnuxie[m]: no? 2021-02-26T01:11:50Z charles`: can't they just be macros? that then (sometimes) expand into implementation specific magic 2021-02-26T01:12:25Z _death: the implementation is free to implement them as macros 2021-02-26T01:12:59Z charles`: I didn't realize that, very cool. 2021-02-26T01:13:02Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T01:16:04Z _death: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.2 2021-02-26T01:16:05Z specbot: Macro Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababb.htm 2021-02-26T01:22:43Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-26T01:24:18Z totoro2022 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2021-02-26T01:24:44Z totoro2021 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T01:26:09Z _death: the self-modifying code issue is interesting.. not just because it uses "bletcherous" jargon, but also because it mentions "displacing macros", which I will now try to find more about.. my guess is that they "patch" the form in place with their expansion 2021-02-26T01:28:15Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2021-02-26T01:29:06Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-26T01:32:12Z _death: and so they do.. https://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/msg01835.html 2021-02-26T01:33:08Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-26T01:39:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T01:40:53Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-26T01:41:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-26T01:45:09Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-02-26T01:45:59Z warweasle quit (Quit: I'm rooting for daffy duck.) 2021-02-26T01:53:56Z karstensrage_ left #lisp 2021-02-26T01:59:29Z abhixec joined #lisp 2021-02-26T02:01:47Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-26T02:02:03Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T02:04:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-26T02:44:20Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-02-26T02:46:26Z trebor_home quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T02:49:09Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-26T02:55:17Z Bike: the mention of an EVAL that takes an environment is interesting 2021-02-26T02:57:35Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-26T03:00:50Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T03:01:25Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T03:01:51Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-26T03:02:14Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-26T03:03:58Z ldbeth: good morning 2021-02-26T03:07:45Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2021-02-26T03:10:06Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-26T03:10:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-26T03:11:07Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-26T03:11:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-26T03:12:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T03:12:30Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-26T03:14:09Z casual_friday_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 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quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T05:18:40Z wxie joined #lisp 2021-02-26T05:20:57Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T05:43:39Z ldbeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-26T05:44:06Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T05:48:37Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T05:49:17Z holycow joined #lisp 2021-02-26T05:49:38Z holycow: is it okay to ask uber noob questions here or do i need to go to another chan? 2021-02-26T05:54:03Z beach: You can ask, and if it becomes tedious you will be told to take it to #clschool. 2021-02-26T05:54:39Z holycow: oh! that is the chan, writing it down 2021-02-26T05:55:04Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T05:56:11Z holycow: docs updated. okay not tedious at all. i just need a tip on how to think about solving the problem and what to google for 2021-02-26T05:57:36Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T05:57:37Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-26T05:59:37Z holycow: i have a text file with a list of music files, one per line. i want to load the list of music files and i guess basically sort by 'i like it' 'i don't like it'. the interface part isnt too much of an issue. so uiop:read-file-lines works fine, but i am wondering how to 'store' the list of files in lisp ... maybe an array? I keep on reading about tokens as well. basically i will create a loop that will 2021-02-26T05:59:43Z holycow: loop over the list, ask me a question, record the answer and move on to the next one. 2021-02-26T06:00:28Z holycow: what structure should i think about using for this? 2021-02-26T06:00:54Z beach: If you have less than a few million music files, then it won't matter much. 2021-02-26T06:01:06Z moon-child: ^ 2021-02-26T06:01:21Z moon-child: can make a structure with a slot for the name of the file and a slot for whether you like it 2021-02-26T06:01:28Z holycow: it's a trivial project to just learn lisp. 2021-02-26T06:01:34Z moon-child: or two lists, one for liked and one for unliked files 2021-02-26T06:01:55Z moon-child: (corresponding roughly to row-major and column-major database stores) 2021-02-26T06:02:20Z holycow: oh, aha 2021-02-26T06:02:30Z holycow: okay thanks i know what to google for now. thank you. 2021-02-26T06:03:30Z beach: I would make a list of standard objects, one object per file, and have a like/don't like slot in it. I would not necessarily sort it right away. But then, I would hide the list behind a protocol (interface) that does not mention the representation. 2021-02-26T06:03:45Z beach: This advice would be true for any language, in fact. 2021-02-26T06:03:55Z holycow: *nod* 2021-02-26T06:04:58Z holycow: thank you kindly. 2021-02-26T06:05:16Z ldbeth: for LOOP macro, how should I write (loop for j <> do ...)? 2021-02-26T06:05:46Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:07:42Z beach: There is no simple way. You may use FOR ... THEN instead of TO/DOWNTO, but it is not necessarily going to be prettier than two loops. 2021-02-26T06:09:50Z ldbeth: ah, ok, I guess I can macrolet the body 2021-02-26T06:10:37Z varjag joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:16:11Z charles`: where did the package prefix trivial come from? 2021-02-26T06:19:12Z Nilby: charles`: It's kind of a meme that Lispers think everything is trivial, even when it's not, or at least not in other languages. Although it's true that many such packages are very simple portability wrappers around what is provided by an implementation. 2021-02-26T06:19:27Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-26T06:22:03Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:24:50Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:26:23Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-26T06:26:27Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:29:10Z nullx002 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:29:28Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T06:30:53Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:34:38Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:39:33Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T06:41:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I always just assumed that it was because those libraries are intended _not_ to do anything particularly interesting 2021-02-26T06:41:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Except bridge incompatibilities between implementations 2021-02-26T06:42:47Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-26T06:42:58Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:43:30Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-26T06:44:26Z nullx002 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-26T06:44:36Z flip214 quit (Changing host) 2021-02-26T06:44:36Z flip214 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:44:39Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:47:57Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:47:57Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2021-02-26T06:47:57Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:49:52Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T06:50:08Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-26T06:51:10Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T06:54:19Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:54:44Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T06:54:59Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T06:58:54Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-26T07:01:33Z gioyik_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-26T07:02:21Z logand```: Alfr_: if call-arguments-limit is an issue: (reduce (lambda (l r) (let ((rr (length r))) (when (= l rr) rr))) '("hi" "th") :initial-value 2) 2021-02-26T07:03:41Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-26T07:03:48Z logand```: it would be much nicer if = returned the element instead of t 2021-02-26T07:04:48Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:05:25Z cognemo quit (Quit: cognemo) 2021-02-26T07:06:43Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:07:48Z pyc: (uiop:delete-directory-tree "/path/to/dir") gives me this error: UIOP/FILESYSTEM:DELETE-DIRECTORY-TREE was asked to delete "/path/to/dir" but it is not a physical non-wildcard directory pathname. I think the pathname is expected in a different format. How can I fix this call? 2021-02-26T07:08:13Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-26T07:09:26Z carkh: try adding a "/" at the end 2021-02-26T07:09:36Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T07:09:50Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:10:53Z pyc: carkh: same error. I think it needs a "physical directory pathname", not a string. I don't know what that means. 2021-02-26T07:11:23Z carkh: #P"/path/to/dir/" maybe ? 2021-02-26T07:11:23Z moon-child: (uiop:delete-directory-tree #p"/path/to/dir" :validate t) 2021-02-26T07:11:59Z moon-child: yeah need trailing / too, in addition to #p and :validate 2021-02-26T07:12:40Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-26T07:13:02Z pyc: moon-child: yes, #p, trailing slash and :validate t worked. why is :validate t required? 2021-02-26T07:13:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T07:13:26Z logand```: (= 3 3) => 3 whould be much nicer than (= 3 3) => t 2021-02-26T07:14:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:14:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-02-26T07:14:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:14:55Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:15:42Z moon-child: logand```: = should be consistent with eql. What should (eql nil nil) return? 2021-02-26T07:17:19Z moon-child: pyc: https://privet-kitty.github.io/etc/uiop.html#index-delete_002ddirectory_002dtree 2021-02-26T07:18:04Z pyc: moon-child: the docstring cautions using `:validate t` with care? what if I did not want to use `:validate t` but do it the right way by making ensure-function happy? What is ensure-function? 2021-02-26T07:19:38Z logand```: moon-child: should? why? 2021-02-26T07:19:56Z moon-child: pyc: :validate t is the 'right thing' if that's what you want to do. :validate t is like rm -rf. Passing in a function there is like rm -i 2021-02-26T07:20:09Z pyc: moon-child: thanks 2021-02-26T07:20:25Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T07:20:32Z logand```: notice significantly increased utility of (= 3 3) => 3 2021-02-26T07:22:10Z moon-child: I agree that that's convenient. It would also be convenient if (eql 'a 'a) => 'a. This indicates that a more general solution, which can support the latter case as well, is in order 2021-02-26T07:24:23Z pyc: moon-child: does the pathname #p"/path/to/dir" in the call to uiop:delete-directory-tree always have to be an absolute path? Can I not use relative path there? 2021-02-26T07:25:05Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:25:17Z Nilby: What should (= 3 3.0 3/1) return? 2021-02-26T07:27:27Z logand```: Nilby: why does the choice matter? 2021-02-26T07:27:37Z Nilby: Why does anything matter? 2021-02-26T07:27:50Z logand```: hmm this goes nowhere 2021-02-26T07:28:09Z Nilby: Feel free to make a (== x y) that returns whatever you want. 2021-02-26T07:28:35Z logand```: strange, i am discussing = 2021-02-26T07:30:49Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T07:32:35Z logand```: moon-child: (eql nil nil) => nil breaks that unfortunatelly 2021-02-26T07:32:51Z Nilby: Consider that the reasons for = returning a boolean have like 50 years of practical experience and argument and papers written about the reasoning behind equality predicates. Thankfully you can make your own equality function and use it and see which one you like best and what the problems could be. 2021-02-26T07:32:55Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:33:08Z eoyath_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-26T07:33:12Z moon-child: logand```: yes, that is my point 2021-02-26T07:33:32Z Cymew joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:34:32Z logand```: moon-child: but that only shows that trying to apply it to eql is not a good idea, not that (= 3 3) => 3 is a bad idea 2021-02-26T07:34:58Z logand```: Nilby: that does not explain anything 2021-02-26T07:35:15Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:37:00Z moon-child: logand```: my claim is that, once you know two things are equal, it's generally useful to know what one of them was, and that this doesn't just apply to numbers. I think there should be a more general solution to the problem, one that allows you to test (eql nil nil), know that the comparison was successful, and know that the object being compared was nil 2021-02-26T07:37:28Z moon-child: (incidentally, eql is a _better_ target for this than =, since it doesn't suffer from the problem Nilby points out where 3 and 3.0 are = and yet distinct) 2021-02-26T07:37:52Z holycow: thanks for the help guys. good night. 2021-02-26T07:37:55Z holycow quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-26T07:39:15Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-26T07:39:23Z Nilby: logand```: Sorry. I'm bad at explaining but many people might be able to explain better than me. 2021-02-26T07:40:08Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:40:34Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T07:42:19Z Nilby: This has some disussion of equality predicates, although not about non-boolean equality. http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html 2021-02-26T07:42:26Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T07:43:07Z karlosz quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-26T07:43:52Z pyc: Why does https://privet-kitty.github.io/etc/uiop.html#index-delete_002ddirectory_002dtree not specify the return value of uiop:delete-directory-tree? 2021-02-26T07:44:47Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:45:22Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:45:26Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:45:27Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:46:40Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-26T07:47:17Z antoszka_ is now known as antoszka 2021-02-26T07:48:04Z prxq_ quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2021-02-26T07:48:16Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:49:54Z Nilby: Another example, if I say (defun == (a b) (if (= a b) b nil)), then consider the performance/storage/gc differences between (= (expt 2 10000000) (expt 2 10000000)) and (== (expt 2 10000000) (expt 2 10000000)) 2021-02-26T07:50:58Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T07:51:15Z moon-child: Nilby: I don't see what the difference is there 2021-02-26T07:52:08Z Nilby: One returns an object with a lot of storage requirements, the other can be stored in one bit. 2021-02-26T07:52:35Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T07:52:54Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:53:30Z moon-child: you already needed to compute both numbers, though; waiting a little longer before freeing one doesn't matter much. Maybe you're done with the object before the next gc cycle anyway. And it's a trivial compiler optimization to avoid keeping around the object if you treat it as a boolean 2021-02-26T07:55:05Z cognemo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-26T07:55:30Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T07:57:30Z Nilby: Maybe, maybe not. Maybe your compiler is smart enough to not even create the number in the = case. Maybe you're storing the results of the == case in a loop. = as it is, just has far less potential problems, and it's very easy to make == if you want it. 2021-02-26T08:00:43Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T08:02:05Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T08:09:28Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T08:10:00Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-26T08:12:08Z logand```: moon-child: those are not distinct by the = definition. it doesnt make sense to talk about = equality and mix in eql equality 2021-02-26T08:12:48Z logand```: Nilby: no extra storage needed, just return an existing argument 2021-02-26T08:14:42Z moon-child: logand```: yes but there are other definitions by which they are distinct, so it matters which you return 2021-02-26T08:14:44Z logand```: Nilby: interesting article, thanks 2021-02-26T08:14:53Z moon-child: logand```: yes but you have to keep storing that argument for longer 2021-02-26T08:16:16Z logand```: moon-child: not sure, i don't see how mixing eql with = makes sense 2021-02-26T08:16:45Z domovod joined #lisp 2021-02-26T08:17:21Z Krystof joined #lisp 2021-02-26T08:17:28Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-26T08:18:45Z logand```: moon-child: i don't think storing for longer issue is an issue. even if it was an issue, returning the last argument would practically eliminate that issue 2021-02-26T08:20:18Z logand```: actually even returning the first one should not be an issue unless lisp can somehow gc function arguments before the function returns 2021-02-26T08:21:14Z Nilby: The equality operators in CL make people wonder, but there's a lot of deep and practical reasoning behind them. 2021-02-26T08:21:29Z logand```: so no, it would not store anything for longer 2021-02-26T08:21:56Z logand```: Nilby: the path-dependence argument is not very enlightening 2021-02-26T08:22:24Z logand```: esp when common lisp is far from perfect 2021-02-26T08:22:36Z Nilby: When I first saw - eq eql equal equalp ..., I was like WTF 2021-02-26T08:24:29Z logand```: yeah, well it makes sense, could it be different? how? 2021-02-26T08:25:17Z logand```: i think the (= 3 3) => 3 case could be different 2021-02-26T08:26:52Z logand```: same probably applies to < e.g. what if (< 1 2 3) returned 3? although this might be more controversial 2021-02-26T08:27:03Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T08:27:50Z Nilby: yes 2021-02-26T08:28:44Z carkh: you have nil the false value, and nil the absence of something 2021-02-26T08:28:49Z Nilby: Interestingly you can make your own set of comparison operators and test out the performance. 2021-02-26T08:29:14Z carkh: = should return true because it's either true or false 2021-02-26T08:29:35Z carkh: if it's not = , that's not the absence of something 2021-02-26T08:31:04Z carkh: generally, predicates should return T or false (nil) 2021-02-26T08:31:04Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T08:31:21Z moon-child: carkh: you will note that the function is named =, not =p :) 2021-02-26T08:31:35Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-26T08:31:43Z carkh: haha well = is the ultimate predicate 2021-02-26T08:32:52Z logand```: Nilby: of course you can make your own, for example if you write a calculator which needs to deal with not-yet-entered input, math operations that accept nil and return nil in nil case are useful. this brings the question, why does + not accept nil and insist on throwing error? is that more useful behaviour? scheme distinguishes #f nil and throws error, is that more useful behaviour? (i don't think so) 2021-02-26T08:32:52Z carkh: now going with this = returns its parameter thing to it ultimate conclusion, you get the c language 2021-02-26T08:33:17Z logand```: carkh: 3 is true 2021-02-26T08:33:28Z carkh: it isn't 2021-02-26T08:33:42Z carkh: it just isn't nil 2021-02-26T08:33:43Z logand```: you meant t 2021-02-26T08:34:50Z logand```: but i probably misunderstood, your point about the second argument was good 2021-02-26T08:35:23Z logand```: except i don't think that predicates should return T 2021-02-26T08:35:53Z logand```: (member 'a '(a b c)) -> '(a b c) 2021-02-26T08:37:05Z carkh: that's because member isn't just a predicate 2021-02-26T08:37:20Z carkh: (member 'b '(a b c)) -> '(b c) 2021-02-26T08:37:42Z carkh: it is usefull for other things 2021-02-26T08:37:56Z carkh: there are practical considerations i must concede on that 2021-02-26T08:38:38Z logand```: the same applies to = 2021-02-26T08:39:05Z logand```: it doesn't have to be just a predicate, it could be useful for other things 2021-02-26T08:39:37Z Nilby: I think when designing a language you have to consider not only utility, and advanced usage, but performance, and simplicity and how confusing something might be, and potential programming pitfalls. I feel like CL makes pretty good choices about these. I particularly like that it tries to not sacrifice efficiency while still allowing for flexibility. 2021-02-26T08:40:27Z carkh: i made a tactical mistake by conceding anything =D 2021-02-26T08:41:06Z carkh: time to call ansi and get started on that next CL spec 2021-02-26T08:41:22Z logand```: :-) 2021-02-26T08:42:09Z logand```: i think it is enough to understand how things could be different for now 2021-02-26T08:42:43Z carkh: i'd still vote for = returning t i think 2021-02-26T08:42:54Z logand```: Nilby: (+ 1 nil 3) -> nil should not sacrifice efficiency 2021-02-26T08:44:09Z jdz: logand```: That way lies madness (errors not caught where the arise, but propagate). 2021-02-26T08:44:33Z gum quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-26T08:44:51Z jdz: logand```: If you want that behavior, try Javascript. 2021-02-26T08:44:52Z logand```: jdz: it depends on your the definition of "error" 2021-02-26T08:45:13Z jdz: NIL is not a number. 2021-02-26T08:45:17Z gum joined #lisp 2021-02-26T08:45:21Z logand```: it is different, i am not talking about coercion 2021-02-26T08:45:38Z jdz: logand```: Are you trying to argue that CL should have ternary logic? 2021-02-26T08:45:49Z jdz: Like SQL? 2021-02-26T08:45:57Z logand```: nil is a shortcircuit thing: (and 1 2 nil 4 5) 2021-02-26T08:46:09Z logand```: not at all comparable to sql 2021-02-26T08:46:19Z logand```: nothing to do with ternary logic 2021-02-26T08:46:44Z carkh: it is not a shortcircuiting thing : (or nil :a) 2021-02-26T08:46:54Z carkh: that's a matetr of context 2021-02-26T08:46:55Z jdz: I may be missing the beginning of this discussion, but why would (+ 1 nil 3) return nil? 2021-02-26T08:47:03Z logand```: becase that is the definition of or 2021-02-26T08:47:18Z carkh: and it short circuits because of the definition of and 2021-02-26T08:47:25Z carkh: that's not a property of nil 2021-02-26T08:47:39Z logand```: but it is very useful property 2021-02-26T08:47:57Z carkh: (of and) 2021-02-26T08:48:11Z hjudt joined #lisp 2021-02-26T08:48:15Z jdz: logand```: In SQL: select 1 + NULL + 3; --> NULL 2021-02-26T08:48:24Z logand```: in sql null is bonkers 2021-02-26T08:48:36Z logand```: not at all comparable to NIL 2021-02-26T08:48:38Z jdz: logand```: To me it seems you're arguing for the same thing in CL. 2021-02-26T08:48:50Z logand```: no, i am not 2021-02-26T08:48:54Z jdz: So how is your (+ 1 nil 3) different? 2021-02-26T08:49:01Z moon-child: jdz: that just sounds like nan 2021-02-26T08:49:12Z moon-child: (1 + null + 3 --> null, that is) 2021-02-26T08:49:15Z logand```: in lisp (eq nil nil) -> t 2021-02-26T08:49:17Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-26T08:49:17Z jdz: moon-child: Right, hence the Javascript reference. 2021-02-26T08:49:24Z logand```: in sql, not so 2021-02-26T08:49:35Z moon-child: jdz: that's not js, though, it's ieee754 2021-02-26T08:50:00Z jdz: moon-child: Propagating NaN instead of triggering errors is JS, though? 2021-02-26T08:50:40Z moon-child: no 2021-02-26T08:50:41Z moon-child: pretty much every language with floats does that 2021-02-26T08:51:16Z logand```: interesting, so there already is widespread precedence 2021-02-26T08:51:23Z logand```: precedent 2021-02-26T08:51:43Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-26T08:52:04Z terrorjack quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-26T08:52:47Z Nilby: I'd be interested to see the design of a computer where it doesn't have an efficiency impact if a return type is (or null number) vs number. 2021-02-26T08:54:01Z logand```: s/computer/lisp is relevant i think 2021-02-26T08:54:08Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-02-26T08:54:16Z jdz: Nilby: It seems to me that IEEE floats cover this (NaN being the null part, a specially encoded number). 2021-02-26T08:54:24Z logand```: lisp already hast to deal with that 2021-02-26T08:54:49Z logand```: jdz: it seems like it except specific to ieee floats 2021-02-26T08:55:05Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-26T08:55:38Z logand```: but how would i use it in lisp? (+ 1 nan 3) -> nan 2021-02-26T08:56:45Z jdz: I seem to remember there is quite huge unused value space in floats, so they might be used for value tagging, so all we really need is floats. Somebody should code up a CL which uses floats for everything. 2021-02-26T08:57:12Z moon-child: pls no 2021-02-26T08:57:20Z jdz: For science! 2021-02-26T08:57:25Z moon-child: (that's nan-tagging, and it's used by some lua and js implementations) 2021-02-26T08:57:26Z beach: jdz: It is called "NaN boxing". 2021-02-26T08:57:54Z jdz: Oh, there you go, my original idea is not even original. What a bummer. 2021-02-26T08:58:09Z ecraven: it's been in use for some 30 years or so ;) 2021-02-26T08:58:35Z logand```: is nan first class value in lisp? 2021-02-26T08:59:45Z moon-child: jdz: compared with the fixnum-boxing employed by most cl implementations, unboxing a float is a somewhat expensive operation. It makes sense for lua and js only because there are no integers 2021-02-26T09:02:13Z Nilby: NaN has no place in my number system 2021-02-26T09:03:37Z pyc: In my SBCL, when I try to use uiop, I get: Package UIOP does not exist. What could be the issue? I don't have quicklisp at this time. Is quicklisp mandatory to use uiop? 2021-02-26T09:03:50Z pyc: I thought uiop comes with SBCL these days 2021-02-26T09:04:02Z logand```: require :asdf? 2021-02-26T09:04:04Z carkh: do you have asdf ? 2021-02-26T09:05:27Z pyc: thanks logand```, carkh. That was the exact issue. Works fine after (require :asdf). 2021-02-26T09:05:54Z pyc: Then I will always (require :asdf) in my programs to keep them portable, so that they run on any implementation regardless of whether quicklisp is installed or not. 2021-02-26T09:06:23Z beach: pyc: Yes, put that in your .sbclrc 2021-02-26T09:07:10Z logand```: better be explicit and write it in programs instead of .sbclrc 2021-02-26T09:08:02Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:09:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T09:09:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:09:44Z pyc: beach: logand```: I normally use quicklisp, so quicklisp adds some code to .sbclrc which loads asdf by default anyway. I was more concerned about the user experience, someone who has plain sbcl but may not have .sbclrc or quicklisp. for them I will (require :asdf) in my programs itself to keep it more portable. 2021-02-26T09:11:15Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-26T09:11:16Z logand```: .sbclrc is a bad idea if not using sbcl, .sbclrc is a bad idea if sharing that code with somebody else, .sbclrc is a bad idea if you want to save time in the future 2021-02-26T09:11:33Z _heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:12:28Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-26T09:13:11Z pyc: logand```: agree 2021-02-26T09:13:36Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T09:16:07Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T09:19:41Z jibanes joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:20:23Z pyc: what is the #p called in paths like #p"/tmp/foo"? 2021-02-26T09:20:54Z beach: A reader macro. 2021-02-26T09:21:01Z pyc: thanks 2021-02-26T09:21:17Z beach: clhs 2.4 2021-02-26T09:21:17Z specbot: Standard Macro Characters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_d.htm 2021-02-26T09:21:36Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T09:21:52Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:25:13Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T09:26:08Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:30:05Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:31:09Z jdz: logand```: I have ~/.common.lisp, which is loaded from ~/.sbclrc, ~/.ccl-init.lisp, ~/.eclrc, etc. 2021-02-26T09:32:59Z jdz: Might as well create a single file with reader conditionals, and link the implementation-specific rcfiles... 2021-02-26T09:34:42Z jdz: Or rather not -- too much trouble to work around implementation-specific packages. 2021-02-26T09:35:06Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-26T09:37:40Z jdz: Never mind, *read-suppress* is there for a reason. 2021-02-26T09:39:15Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:40:15Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:41:46Z zaquest_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-26T09:43:06Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:43:14Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T09:43:28Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:45:02Z catt joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:51:17Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T09:52:37Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-26T09:53:29Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:53:31Z hiroaki__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-26T09:55:04Z cods_ is now known as cods 2021-02-26T09:55:13Z cods quit (Changing host) 2021-02-26T09:55:14Z cods joined #lisp 2021-02-26T09:56:38Z carkh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T09:57:12Z datajerk_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-26T09:57:56Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T09:59:36Z grumble quit (Quit: K-Lined) 2021-02-26T10:02:36Z datajerk joined #lisp 2021-02-26T10:03:41Z grumble joined #lisp 2021-02-26T10:04:17Z hiroaki__ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T10:07:35Z logand``` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-26T10:07:37Z imode1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-26T10:07:58Z logand joined #lisp 2021-02-26T10:11:21Z ldbeth: actually, you can dump a image with quicklisp preloaded 2021-02-26T10:11:39Z ldbeth: so you can get rid of the .sbclrc etc thing 2021-02-26T10:13:45Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T10:13:54Z Oddity- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-26T10:15:11Z Oddity joined #lisp 2021-02-26T10:15:16Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T10:18:06Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-26T10:18:39Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-26T10:21:44Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-26T10:22:55Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T10:34:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T10:34:26Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-26T10:38:01Z niac joined #lisp 2021-02-26T10:43:54Z pyc: If I have a variable x with "hell" in it, how can I append the character literal #\o to x, so that I get "hello"? 2021-02-26T10:44:51Z beach: pyc: Do you mean that the value of the variable is "hell"? 2021-02-26T10:44:56Z pyc: beach: yes 2021-02-26T10:45:25Z beach: pyc: Either the string has a fill pointer and you can do it by modifying the value itself, or else you need to change the value. 2021-02-26T10:45:47Z beach: er, or else you need to give the variable a new value, computed from the old. 2021-02-26T10:46:37Z pyc: beach: I mean I have (defvar x "hell"). I can always do something like (concatenate 'string a "o") to get "hello" but what if I want to supply #\o instead of "o"? 2021-02-26T10:46:37Z beach: Sorry, fill-pointer is not required. It has to be ADJUSTABLE, I mean. 2021-02-26T10:47:00Z beach: Oh, that's easy... (string #\o) 2021-02-26T10:47:05Z beach: clhs string 2021-02-26T10:47:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_string.htm 2021-02-26T10:47:09Z pyc: thanks! 2021-02-26T10:47:37Z beach: Pleasure. 2021-02-26T10:51:34Z OlCe quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T10:55:50Z davros1 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T10:58:21Z davros_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-26T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-26T11:05:56Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T11:06:08Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:06:14Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:06:25Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-26T11:07:52Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T11:07:53Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-26T11:09:24Z FennecCode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T11:11:36Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:12:23Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T11:12:40Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:15:49Z FennecCode joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:17:46Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:17:57Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T11:21:15Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:22:04Z _death: funny, I just had some email exchange with someone who knows a little Lisp about such operations.. actually it was about bombs, and not in English, but here's a translation of a message: https://gist.github.com/death/68ddf9eb12ed9f133364fc71200d6511 2021-02-26T11:26:43Z phantomics joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:29:56Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:30:17Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:30:34Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:31:42Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:32:34Z Nilby: _death: Lisp has some weird history. Somehow that reminds me of P.K.Dick. 2021-02-26T11:32:55Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:35:49Z beach: The fact that Xach brought up chapter 31 of the SICL specification http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf yesterday made me realize that there was (and still is) more important stuff to include. 2021-02-26T11:35:50Z beach: So I wrote sections on documentation strings (now 31.3), use of the most specific construct (31.11) using packages (31.12), and I expanded the section on commenting (31.4). After my lunch break, I'll write the section on names of slot accessors (31.13) which is still empty. 2021-02-26T11:37:01Z beach: Comments are welcome, except the ones in the categories "I disagree", "But *I* prefer...", etc. Because I already know the arguments. 2021-02-26T11:40:36Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T11:47:02Z _death: maybe summarize the normative with Dos and Don'ts, like 31.2 Don't write lines that are too long 2021-02-26T11:48:50Z xvzf joined #lisp 2021-02-26T11:49:12Z _death: for example I'm reminded of https://root.cern.ch/TaligentDocs/TaligentOnline/DocumentRoot/1.0/Docs/books/WM/WM_3.html 2021-02-26T11:49:31Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T11:56:57Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T11:57:36Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T11:58:23Z xvzf quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-26T12:04:21Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T12:04:38Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:04:56Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-26T12:04:56Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-26T12:05:05Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:12:44Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:13:05Z _death: also I'm wondering if you meant that about four semicolons 2021-02-26T12:16:26Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:16:53Z _death: also, "the last line of the file should not be blank" is unclear to me.. it is a common convention to have text files end with a newline, so in a sense the last line is always blank 2021-02-26T12:17:23Z loke`: Yeah, that one tripped me up too. 2021-02-26T12:17:44Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-26T12:17:44Z loke`: A text file is usually defined as ending with a newline, and with that definition Beach's working is correct. 2021-02-26T12:17:54Z ldbeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:17:57Z loke`: Adding a clarification on the terminating newline would be a good idea though. 2021-02-26T12:18:17Z OlCe joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:18:36Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T12:18:51Z jmercouris: I personally don't think it matters that there is a terminating newline 2021-02-26T12:18:56Z jmercouris: why would it ever matter? 2021-02-26T12:19:18Z jmercouris: in what case would code be correct/incorrect based on the presence of such a line 2021-02-26T12:23:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T12:23:28Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:23:53Z epony joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:25:37Z logand: jmercouris: iirc for eg wc -l 2021-02-26T12:25:46Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:26:08Z _death: all code that depends on this convention.. many unix tools 2021-02-26T12:26:09Z ldbeth: that could means cat output on terminal would be crappy 2021-02-26T12:27:09Z _death: if you don't think it matters, modify your current tools to not add a newline (because they likely all do it) and see what happens 2021-02-26T12:33:24Z jmercouris: OK 2021-02-26T12:33:45Z Nilby: what happens is the shell puts in a "magic" indicator, grep works, and wc is one off 2021-02-26T12:33:57Z jmercouris: I don't like to use such tools anyways though 2021-02-26T12:34:01Z jmercouris: I basically only use Emacs 2021-02-26T12:34:09Z jmercouris: I find unix tools idiotic in design 2021-02-26T12:34:14Z _death: what about github? 2021-02-26T12:34:21Z jmercouris: What about GitHub? 2021-02-26T12:34:28Z _death: do you like those red indicators? :) 2021-02-26T12:34:38Z jmercouris: The diff for PRs you mean? 2021-02-26T12:34:54Z _death: no, the indicators you get when there's no terminating newline 2021-02-26T12:35:00Z _death: (I think github has them) 2021-02-26T12:35:03Z ldbeth: emacs auto appends newline 2021-02-26T12:35:05Z jmercouris: I don't mind them, Pierre is annoyed by them 2021-02-26T12:35:08Z jmercouris: so I do add a newline 2021-02-26T12:35:26Z jmercouris: and I remove trailing whitespace etc.. 2021-02-26T12:35:36Z _death: see, that's the thing about conventions.. they're not about just you :) 2021-02-26T12:36:19Z jmercouris: I follow conventions, even if I don't agree with them 2021-02-26T12:36:25Z jmercouris: something something branch that bends does not break 2021-02-26T12:37:20Z Nilby: i originally wrote my wc to be correct, but then I caved into the stupid unix way 2021-02-26T12:37:28Z _death: good.. that's the value of conventions, that people follow them even if they're not perfect 2021-02-26T12:38:33Z _death: and now you can recognize that it does matter whether a newline is added or not 2021-02-26T12:38:52Z logand: and sometimes it is good not to follow conventions, esp if they are not perfect 2021-02-26T12:39:15Z logand: that's how progress is made, maybe 2021-02-26T12:40:04Z ldbeth` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:40:36Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T12:40:36Z aindilis` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:40:52Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T12:40:57Z _death: logand: more often it's in the other direction.. and this is why the software world looks like what it looks like nowadys ;) 2021-02-26T12:42:14Z _death: new conventions are constantly created without looking into how previous conventions went off and came about 2021-02-26T12:43:41Z jmercouris: the problem is many conventions were created by inertia, or no longer technically relevant problems 2021-02-26T12:43:47Z Nilby: Just using Lisp is pretty defiant, but missing final newlines bug me 2021-02-26T12:43:51Z jmercouris: reminds me of the famous paradigm of the bananas and the monkeys getting squirted 2021-02-26T12:44:08Z _death: existing conventions are deemed imperfect, and some take this to mean they are worthless and create new conventions that have the exact same issue but without the advantage of status quo 2021-02-26T12:44:43Z jmercouris: I don't think it can be fully generalized like this 2021-02-26T12:45:03Z jmercouris: oftentimes new convenions /are/ superior, and they become the new convention 2021-02-26T12:45:35Z _death: disagree.. oftentimes new is shiny and fad is the convention 2021-02-26T12:45:38Z jmercouris: for example, OO superseding procedural code for large programs 2021-02-26T12:46:05Z jmercouris: I think that OO is a much better convention for big programs 2021-02-26T12:46:17Z jmercouris: however were we to still write assembler, we'd be stuck in a procedural mindset 2021-02-26T12:47:04Z ldbeth`: why procedural mindset considered bad 2021-02-26T12:47:17Z jmercouris: did I say it was bad? 2021-02-26T12:47:22Z jmercouris: I said OO was superior for large programs 2021-02-26T12:47:23Z _death: do you not know about Randall Hyde and his quest for High Level Assembly? ;) 2021-02-26T12:47:53Z jmercouris: I am very much a procedural programmer myself, often favoring it as a paradigm 2021-02-26T12:48:31Z ldbeth`: but fortran can be oo 2021-02-26T12:48:47Z jmercouris: that's a really cool story ldbeth` , however, I don't see how that is relevant to my argument 2021-02-26T12:49:12Z ldbeth`: nothing stops people thinking oo even writing assembly programs 2021-02-26T12:49:28Z jmercouris: it is unrelated to my argument 2021-02-26T12:49:38Z jmercouris: my argument is about OO superseding Procedural as a convention 2021-02-26T12:49:43Z jmercouris: for large programs 2021-02-26T12:50:03Z _death: I'm guessing it's all veering into offtopicness or, by channel convention, lispcafeness (lispnescafe?) 2021-02-26T12:50:14Z jmercouris: agreed 2021-02-26T12:50:25Z ldbeth`: That could be personal test of project manager team something 2021-02-26T12:52:01Z _death: jmercouris: such opinions on OO always remind me of this post and its surrounding discussion: https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.lang.lisp/-uoDKZeKBr4/qGgFy-M3mvoJ 2021-02-26T12:53:00Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:53:37Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:54:45Z _death: also, this is Lisp, OO is too narrow.. we had semantic networks and frame systems, dammit 2021-02-26T12:55:39Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T12:56:20Z ldbeth`` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:56:21Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T12:57:18Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-26T12:59:15Z carkh: hum naming question, if numbers between 3 and 5 is a "range", how do you call the numbers over 3 ? 2021-02-26T13:00:05Z jmercouris: a domain 2021-02-26T13:00:35Z carkh: mhh that's too wide a definition i think 2021-02-26T13:00:59Z jmercouris: how so? a domain is as narrow or as wide as it needs to be based on how you define it 2021-02-26T13:01:17Z carkh: haha indeed =) 2021-02-26T13:01:21Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:01:22Z supercoven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-02-26T13:01:36Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:01:37Z supercoven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-02-26T13:01:51Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:02:27Z carkh: half-range just doesn't sound right 2021-02-26T13:02:30Z carkh: ohwell 2021-02-26T13:06:10Z Alfr_: carkh, interval bounded below, left-bounded interval? 2021-02-26T13:07:36Z Bike joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:07:38Z Alfr_: Imo "integers larger than 3" is the nicest you'll get. 2021-02-26T13:08:07Z Alfr_: Oh ... reals, not integers. 2021-02-26T13:08:09Z carkh: ohwell i think i'll go with range, and specify it's actually a half-range in the docstring =) 2021-02-26T13:08:20Z totoro2021 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1) 2021-02-26T13:09:07Z carkh: the function does from start, from end, inclusive or not 2021-02-26T13:09:15Z Nilby: I might call a half range a limit. 2021-02-26T13:09:27Z carkh: ahh this one is pleasing 2021-02-26T13:09:41Z Alfr_: Problem is that range already has a definition in this context, as max(I)-min(I) when I i bounded. 2021-02-26T13:10:03Z palter quit 2021-02-26T13:10:11Z Alfr_: Or sup/inf, I isn't closed. 2021-02-26T13:12:00Z Bike: isn't it a left bounded interval 2021-02-26T13:12:16Z carkh: or right in this case 2021-02-26T13:12:50Z carkh: thanks for the ideas ! 2021-02-26T13:12:53Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-26T13:19:50Z kevingal_: Might get some ideas here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(mathematics) 2021-02-26T13:20:28Z kevingal_: It suggests half-bounded. 2021-02-26T13:20:36Z ldbeth``` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:21:30Z kevingal_: Oh right, someone already mentioned left-bounded. 2021-02-26T13:21:51Z beach: _death: Do you mean like at the end of each section? 2021-02-26T13:22:14Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:22:28Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T13:22:42Z beach: I see what you mean about the blank lines. I'll see what I can do about that. 2021-02-26T13:22:45Z ldbeth`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T13:29:26Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T13:31:37Z v3ga joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:32:00Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:35:24Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-26T13:35:48Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:36:45Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:37:21Z beach: I mostly agree with _death. Most conventions don't exist because of some reason of technical superiority but as Pinker puts it because some "tacit agreement". Their main advantage is to exist. So abandoning them in favor of others, that are not agreed upon, is very unfortunate. 2021-02-26T13:37:24Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-26T13:38:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:38:56Z beach: But I often see evidence here of the common idea that we should do whatever we please because conventions are crap and we know better than all those silly old people who came before use. 2021-02-26T13:39:05Z totoro2021 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:39:13Z vaporatorius__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-26T13:39:27Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:39:27Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2021-02-26T13:39:27Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:39:47Z carkh: kevingal_: thanks 2021-02-26T13:40:32Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-26T13:40:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:42:24Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-26T13:42:37Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T13:42:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:43:45Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T13:46:08Z pagnol joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:47:35Z srandon111 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:48:23Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T13:50:52Z beach: For instance, there is absolutely no technical reason to use `argc' and `argv' as names of the parameters of `main' in C. And there is no technical reason to prefer `i', `j', `k' as loop variables for indices of arrays. Mathematicians use `x', `y', `z' for numbers, but there is no technical reason for that either. 2021-02-26T13:50:53Z beach: It is just, like I wrote in that chapter, and arbitrary convention that evolved over time, often for unknown reasons. And that is exactly why we should continue using it. 2021-02-26T13:51:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T13:52:45Z jackdaniel: if there is a good reason to break a convention I'd say that one should do that. otherwise conventions would not evolve over time. I don't consider "not liking it" being a good reason for breaking the convention though. 2021-02-26T13:53:36Z beach: I totally agree, and I deliberately try to break some conventions myself. Like the one of prefixing a slot accessor with a class name, rather than using the package system. 2021-02-26T13:55:11Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-02-26T13:55:37Z jackdaniel: I often get confused when there are too many packages in the codebase I'm reading 2021-02-26T13:55:43Z jackdaniel: but that's probably a personal trait 2021-02-26T13:55:50Z beach: But, I wrote that chapter as a guide for inexperienced people who might not even recognize the existence of conventions, because they probably have little experience from reading other people's code. So the emphasis is on following conventions rather than breaking them. 2021-02-26T13:56:01Z jackdaniel: sure, makes sense 2021-02-26T13:57:47Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-02-26T13:58:18Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:01:23Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T14:02:22Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-26T14:02:46Z ldbeth``` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T14:03:39Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-26T14:05:04Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:05:30Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-26T14:07:48Z _death: sometimes defining a scope for a convention is useful.. for example in this file/library/organization they use class-foo names, so I'll add class-bar.. but in this library they use foo names, so I'll add bar.. in this way different conventions can coexist while maintaining some level of sanity 2021-02-26T14:08:30Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:08:45Z beach: Absolutely. 2021-02-26T14:09:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:09:52Z jackdaniel: (/me also agrees) 2021-02-26T14:10:06Z ldbeth``` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:14:18Z ldbeth``` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-26T14:14:48Z _death: throughout the lifetime of a programmer it makes sense "try on" different conventions.. sometimes you settle on the ones you like, and sometimes they are more dependent on context.. so some of my projects are written in one style, and others are written in a very different style.. sometimes it's the result of an "accident", i.e. "trying on", and other times it's on purpose.. 2021-02-26T14:16:10Z Xach: One problem comes from people who disagree so strongly they refuse to participate unless everyone else agrees to their demands. 2021-02-26T14:16:21Z beach: _death: Do you mean different choices of existing conventions, or establishing conventions for situations where none exist? 2021-02-26T14:16:56Z _death: and the inexperienced can indeed benefit from trying to follow guides that lead coherent styles 2021-02-26T14:16:58Z _death: *to 2021-02-26T14:17:08Z _death: beach: both 2021-02-26T14:17:13Z beach: I see. 2021-02-26T14:17:32Z _death: beach: when writing a program, you often need to develop conventions specific to it 2021-02-26T14:18:31Z _death: beach: and throughout the relatively long evolution of Lisp, there have been different ways of doing some things :) 2021-02-26T14:18:32Z beach: Definitely. That's why I thought that this is what you meant. 2021-02-26T14:19:40Z beach: _death: I find that these conventions evolve over time, more like a progression from conventions that did not work out so well to more solid ones. 2021-02-26T14:20:02Z Xach: beach: I very much like the section on the Dunkers in Franklin's autobiography on the topic 2021-02-26T14:20:07Z Xach will dig it up 2021-02-26T14:20:08Z ldbeth``` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:20:20Z beach: Please do. 2021-02-26T14:21:13Z Xach: https://www.xach.com/dunkers.txt 2021-02-26T14:21:22Z _death: beach: I guess some of them do, yeah.. because we as a (CL) community tend to appreciate Lisp tradition and learn the history 2021-02-26T14:23:42Z beach: Xach: Very nice! 2021-02-26T14:24:01Z easye applauds Ben's text. 2021-02-26T14:24:01Z beach: _death: Exactly! 2021-02-26T14:24:05Z _death: beach: unfortunately as communities grow larger, it's almost inevitable to regress or diverge 2021-02-26T14:24:56Z ldbeth``` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T14:25:11Z beach: _death: That's part of the reason that I am always a bit queasy about the desire to enlarge the use of Common Lisp at all cost. 2021-02-26T14:26:05Z _death: beach: but that's where your style guide or other writings or help on irc for example may help ;) 2021-02-26T14:27:01Z beach: That's why I am trying to finish this text before Common Lisp become hugely popular. :) 2021-02-26T14:27:33Z _death: ;) 2021-02-26T14:27:52Z _death: family time.. later ;) 2021-02-26T14:28:06Z beach: Take care! 2021-02-26T14:30:23Z ldbeth``` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:31:35Z narimiran joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:35:21Z ldbeth``` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T14:35:26Z FennecCode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T14:36:36Z warweasle joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:38:21Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T14:39:36Z FennecCode joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:39:50Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T14:40:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:40:44Z ldbeth``` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:42:37Z shka_: i sometimes think that re-branded Common Lisp would had a better shot at becoming popular 2021-02-26T14:43:25Z semz: Rebranded? 2021-02-26T14:45:22Z ldbeth``` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T14:45:51Z beach: I think shka_ is suggesting a different name, so that people who associate "Lisp" with slow, interpreted code with lots of parentheses would not immediately reject it. 2021-02-26T14:46:49Z beach: And that might work for young inexperienced programmers who don't care to learn about computing history, but I think "Lisp" is an indication of a heritage we should be proud of. 2021-02-26T14:47:09Z shka_: beach: yes 2021-02-26T14:48:26Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-26T14:48:28Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:49:06Z Nilby: I don't care if everyone calls it PowerLang™ DynamicScript™, I'm still gonna program in Lisp. 2021-02-26T14:49:07Z beach: I for one do not particularly want to attract people with uninformed opinions like that to Common Lisp. We would spend the rest of our lives giving them newbie advice here. 2021-02-26T14:49:35Z semz: Yeah it seems like a bad audience to cater to. 2021-02-26T14:49:43Z beach: Absolutely. 2021-02-26T14:49:47Z semz: I think the stigma of slow interpreted code has largely faded nowadays though. 2021-02-26T14:49:58Z semz: The one about parentheses has obviously stuck however 2021-02-26T14:50:40Z ldbeth``` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:52:10Z contrapunctus: shka_: like Julia or CL21? 😏 2021-02-26T14:52:11Z beach: semz: In some groups, very likely. Like Python programmers, for instance. But I bet that many C++ programmers still think their code is faster than what we could produce with Common Lisp. And that might be true for some truly unmaintainable C++ code, but not for modular C++ code, as I often point out. 2021-02-26T14:52:45Z shka_: contrapunctus: ha!, julia is not a common lisp but close enough i guess! 2021-02-26T14:53:44Z antoszka: I don't think it's in any way close 2021-02-26T14:53:54Z antoszka: I see more unfortunate resemblance to Python 2021-02-26T14:54:15Z beach: OK, section 31.13 is now in http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf 2021-02-26T14:54:27Z fitzsim: Dylan was an attempt to provide an alternative to parentheses 2021-02-26T14:54:28Z loke`: semz: I'd hope so. People keep using Python these days which is the slowest language I've ever had the misfortune to lay eyes upon. 2021-02-26T14:54:57Z fitzsim: I skimmed OpenDylan recently and didn't see many references to Common Lisp in the code though 2021-02-26T14:54:59Z Nilby: and yet Dylan, which is seems like one of the most easily readable language ever, didn't seem to become popular. so I think language popularity has more to do with external factors. 2021-02-26T14:55:02Z loke`: The speed argument was only popular when all the cool kids were using C, which has pretty much only a single thing going for it: I can be fast (at least on the computers at the time) 2021-02-26T14:55:36Z fitzsim: I guess Dylan was bootstrapped from Common Lisp but then later by itself or something? 2021-02-26T14:55:58Z jonatack_ quit (Quit: jonatack_) 2021-02-26T14:56:04Z ldbeth``` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T14:56:09Z epony: loke`, that is why the operating system kernels are written in Lisp hahaha 2021-02-26T14:56:16Z beach: Nilby: Oh, definitely. The people who think that changing the syntax of Common Lisp will magically make it more popular are definitely wrong. 2021-02-26T14:56:25Z Nilby: fitzsim: yes 2021-02-26T14:56:35Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:56:41Z semz: loke`, may I introduce you to Ruby? 2021-02-26T14:57:23Z fitzsim: I was hoping that OpenDylan would sit on top of Common Lisp, and offer an alternative syntax; that's why I wanted to try it 2021-02-26T14:57:29Z fitzsim: out of interest 2021-02-26T14:57:56Z kevingal_: What would you call a rebranded Lisp? I propose "Stammer". 2021-02-26T14:58:29Z fitzsim: has anyone tried to implement Python syntax hosted on Common Lisp? 2021-02-26T14:58:31Z beach: epony: Why is that funny? 2021-02-26T14:58:39Z epony: it's hilarious 2021-02-26T14:58:44Z contrapunctus: kevingal_: lol 2021-02-26T14:59:23Z beach: epony: C is a very bad choice indeed for operating systems. 2021-02-26T14:59:28Z sjl joined #lisp 2021-02-26T14:59:50Z epony: the rest of the world thinks that for Lisp 2021-02-26T14:59:57Z beach: epony: Hell, "kernel" is a very bad choice for operating systems. 2021-02-26T14:59:58Z Nilby: epony: There are a number OS kernels in Lisp. 2021-02-26T15:00:09Z epony: that's what all OSes use 2021-02-26T15:00:22Z beach: epony: That doesn't mean it is good. 2021-02-26T15:01:02Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:01:11Z epony: yeah, we've seen the REPLs pretending to be IDEs / OSes too 2021-02-26T15:01:59Z beach: epony: http://metamodular.com/closos.pdf has a section on that: 1.2 2021-02-26T15:02:03Z rogersm quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-26T15:02:30Z epony: the fun part is.. that Lisp people always try to compare themselves on speed with a failure of some sort in programming design application 2021-02-26T15:03:07Z beach: epony: Can you elaborate on that? 2021-02-26T15:03:11Z beach: I don't recognize it. 2021-02-26T15:03:35Z imode1 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:05:13Z contrapunctus: shka_: I liked CL21, but stylewarning's comment on the matter resonated with me - https://reddit.com/comments/kylep5/comment/gjhzpe6?context=3 (I'd said the first half myself in ##lisp once) 2021-02-26T15:07:03Z zooey_ quit (Quit: quit) 2021-02-26T15:07:23Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:07:27Z contrapunctus: Speaking of misconceptions, I've heard time and again that "you can't make GUIs in Lisp" 🤦 2021-02-26T15:07:28Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:07:39Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-26T15:08:13Z jonatack_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-26T15:09:57Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:10:08Z shka_: contrapunctus: i am not familiar with CL21 2021-02-26T15:10:49Z contrapunctus: shka_: http://cl21.org/ 2021-02-26T15:11:23Z cartwright joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:11:33Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T15:11:38Z contrapunctus: I liked * the idea of CL21 ("modernizing" the language while leveraging existing CL implementations) 2021-02-26T15:12:10Z shka_: this looks a cosmetic changes honestly 2021-02-26T15:12:33Z jonatack quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-26T15:13:41Z shka_: if anything, I still think that porting some of the C++ (preserving semantics where it would make sense) wouldn't be a terrible idea for a project 2021-02-26T15:14:22Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:15:49Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:16:17Z shka_: but yeah, i think that stylewarning comment is on point, you need tested, de facto standard tools 2021-02-26T15:18:35Z semz: The STL does have some nice ideas. It's a shame that a lot of the related material (Stepanov's generic programming stuff too) is buried under mountains of C++ arcana and other obscurantism. 2021-02-26T15:18:53Z pegu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T15:19:11Z semz: I found Elements of Programming utterly unreadable for that reason 2021-02-26T15:19:28Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T15:19:34Z shka_: yes, i think that all things considered it is a well designed library (in most of the areas) 2021-02-26T15:19:46Z shka_: a little bit over-standardized perhaps 2021-02-26T15:25:29Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T15:26:51Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:27:43Z beach: contrapunctus: Hah, one of my engineering students laughed very hard when I hinted that sockets could be used by a Common Lisp program. 2021-02-26T15:28:31Z beach: epony: Can you please elaborate? 2021-02-26T15:30:45Z warweasle: beach: Are sockets limited to certain langauges? 2021-02-26T15:30:57Z Nilby: ironc that Symbolics was the first .com 2021-02-26T15:31:30Z hiroaki__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T15:31:35Z beach: My student was convinced that Common Lisp was a toy that could not be used for real programming. Or so he wanted to believe so as to avoid the cognitive dissonance that would otherwise be inevitable. 2021-02-26T15:31:42Z shka_: semz: actually i think that D library is even better 2021-02-26T15:31:52Z warweasle: Learning Lisp, Forth and Prolog has changed how I look at programming. 2021-02-26T15:32:33Z Xach: warweasle: you should have learned lisp *first* 2021-02-26T15:32:34Z warweasle: beach: Your next assignment should be to write a quick lisp interpreter. 2021-02-26T15:32:51Z shka_: warweasle: lol 2021-02-26T15:32:58Z beach: Oh, I don't do assignments anymore. That was a while ago. 2021-02-26T15:33:02Z warweasle: Xach: Yes. But I didn't know. And microsoft kept telling me to learn C++, MFC and COM. 2021-02-26T15:34:00Z warweasle: At the time... Anyone else have PTSD from trying to understand Micrsoft's ATL? 2021-02-26T15:37:53Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:41:01Z Nilby: warweasle: you might know that beach's current "assignment" is writing our next super CL compiler :) 2021-02-26T15:41:28Z pyc: Is there a quick way to surround the current sexp with parentheses in Emacs or Paredit? 2021-02-26T15:42:26Z contrapunctus: pyc: M-( or something 2021-02-26T15:42:42Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:42:47Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T15:42:54Z contrapunctus: pyc: I don't remember the command and I don't have a computer ATM 😔 2021-02-26T15:43:10Z Xach: pyc: I don't think this is the best way, but I use ( M- to do that. 2021-02-26T15:43:44Z Xach: pyc: this only works at the start of a sexp 2021-02-26T15:44:41Z warweasle: Nilby: Is it an actual super compiler? because those are AWESOME. 2021-02-26T15:44:46Z contrapunctus: pyc: if you use Boon, you can `a p ;` to surround the expression after point with parens and `a p j` to do it for the expression before point; Evil probably has an extension for it too; and amartparens definitely does it. 2021-02-26T15:44:51Z pyc: contrapunctus: thanks. works great. 2021-02-26T15:45:30Z warweasle: Anyone ever seen https://github.com/attila-lendvai/maru 2021-02-26T15:45:49Z warweasle: Maru? It's a cool concept but I think it stalled. 2021-02-26T15:45:49Z Xach: warweasle: attila_lendvai might have 2021-02-26T15:46:11Z pyc: contrapunctus: I use Emacs4CL which is just plain Emacs + sbcl + slime + paredit. So M-( works great for me. 2021-02-26T15:46:17Z warweasle: Xach: Your humor is so dry I sometimes can't tell when you are joking. 2021-02-26T15:46:44Z warweasle: OH, attila_lendvai is in the channel. 2021-02-26T15:46:47Z warweasle: WOW. 2021-02-26T15:46:49Z attila_lendvai: warweasle, it's been dead, and in the past year it became a one-bus project... :) 2021-02-26T15:47:30Z warweasle: attila_lendvai: There was so much I didn't understand but it's intriguing. A mix of machine code and lisp? 2021-02-26T15:48:03Z pyc: Xach: did you mean ( C-. That slurps forward. I don't see what M- is supposed to do. 2021-02-26T15:48:23Z warweasle: (Please forgive me if I mixed your project up with another. It's been a minute.) 2021-02-26T15:48:44Z attila_lendvai: warweasle, the code wasn't very accommodating to newcomers, but i think it got much better in that regard. 2021-02-26T15:49:34Z attila_lendvai: warweasle, and i wrote some docs in the docs/ dir! if you have read them, then i welcome any questions that remained foggy afterwards! 2021-02-26T15:49:53Z warweasle: Now that I know who to ask, I might look back into it. But first I need to get my current project working. 2021-02-26T15:50:22Z Xach: pyc: yes, thanks for the correction. 2021-02-26T15:50:27Z warweasle: attila_lendvai: It's been a while, so I'll need to read them again. I'm pretty sure I'm running a stack based OS in my head. 2021-02-26T15:52:40Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:53:46Z slyrus: Has anyone taken a stab at better pretty printing facilities in the last, oh, 30 years? The built in pretty printer is showing its age, IMO. 2021-02-26T15:54:19Z warweasle: slyrus: How can you improve perfection? 2021-02-26T15:54:40Z slyrus: heh 2021-02-26T15:55:01Z semz: what is wrong/missing that can't be corrected with the printer variables? 2021-02-26T15:56:19Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T15:56:30Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T15:56:47Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-26T15:58:05Z pyc: how can I check my asdf version? 2021-02-26T15:58:31Z slyrus: part of it may be my lack of understanding but it is a pain to use and harder to get things to look right. Also, it very much seems designed around printing lisp forms. If you're data isn't a list, the built in capabilities seem very limited. 2021-02-26T16:02:05Z Xach: slyrus: i'm curious if there are other systems you like from which good ideas might be stolen... 2021-02-26T16:02:16Z slyrus: I'm looking for those :) 2021-02-26T16:04:47Z gabc joined #lisp 2021-02-26T16:08:15Z F________ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T16:08:15Z F________ is now known as Feldman 2021-02-26T16:08:40Z beach: slyrus: Sounds like a perfect project for you. :) 2021-02-26T16:09:39Z beach: slyrus: I'll use the result as the pretty printer for SICL. 2021-02-26T16:10:14Z beach: slyrus: And while you are at it, please improve its specification/documentation. 2021-02-26T16:15:24Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T16:16:22Z beach: New section 31.14 in http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf concerning the use of DEFGENERIC. 2021-02-26T16:16:56Z beach still can't figure out what epony was referring to. 2021-02-26T16:17:35Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T16:18:37Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-26T16:19:28Z gabc: Hi, I'm on windows and I'm trying to find out a good way to do lisp (on linux/mac I use sbcl+emacs and it's great) but I haven't have been able to figure something nice on windows 2021-02-26T16:19:43Z gabc: Is there any tips here that can help? 2021-02-26T16:20:01Z Xach: gabc: people seem to really like portacle for an easy way to get set up 2021-02-26T16:20:26Z pyc: What is a good coding style? require statement at the top of a .lisp file? or just before where I need to use the package? 2021-02-26T16:20:27Z epony: well, who makes the comparisons and false claims, elaborates.. since they are defending their claims ;-) I have nothing to say on that topic.. it was all outlined in several obvious facts from all systems that pick C for systems programming regardless of what other language users think about their own favourites 2021-02-26T16:20:28Z Nilby: I used sbcl+emacs on windows. and ccl too 2021-02-26T16:21:34Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T16:21:41Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T16:21:43Z gabc: I'll take another look at sbcl on windows 2021-02-26T16:21:50Z beach: epony: Can you give an example of "Lisp people always try to compare themselves on speed with a failure of some sort in programming design application". I can't even parse the phrase. 2021-02-26T16:21:53Z pyc: gabc: SBCL + Emacs should work fine on Windows too. I use https://github.com/susam/emacs4cl Much simpler alternative to Portacle. you can use your own Emacs with this config. 2021-02-26T16:22:02Z Xach: pyc: REQUIRE is uncommon in source files these days 2021-02-26T16:22:03Z Nilby: I'm pretty sure I just installed the whatever current versions at the time. The tricky part is making sure you have a libffi for sbcl, which I had to do with cygwin. 2021-02-26T16:22:03Z gabc: I'm trying to get an sbcl on WSL and my emacs on windows, and it works until I do M-. 2021-02-26T16:22:13Z Xach: pyc: much more common to define a system and load the system 2021-02-26T16:22:37Z Nilby: I didn't try on WSL. 2021-02-26T16:22:40Z epony: well, you can parse it of course.. since people compare Lisp as speed with things that are slow and failing 2021-02-26T16:22:40Z slyrus: beach: no, this one's above my pay grade. But I probably could spend some time formalizing my gripes. 2021-02-26T16:22:55Z pyc: Xach: I need (require :asdf) because I am using uiop. what would be the way to load it without (require)? sorry, I haven't learnt systems yet 2021-02-26T16:23:03Z beach: slyrus: Oh, too bad! 2021-02-26T16:23:26Z slyrus: btw, props to stassats for getting amd64 macos sbcl working so quickly! 2021-02-26T16:23:37Z pyc: gabc: did you set up Emacs + SBCL on linux and macos yourslf? what else do you use? do you have SLIME? do you use paredit? 2021-02-26T16:24:11Z Xach: pyc: usually you would express a dependency on the UIOP system 2021-02-26T16:24:18Z slyrus: beach: I can't be the first person to have complained and/or thought about how to make things better in the last 3 decades. 2021-02-26T16:24:23Z Nilby: gabc but I didn't use slime since I was working on stuff that ran in a windows console 2021-02-26T16:24:33Z pyc: Xach: any documentation you can point me to to learn this stuff? 2021-02-26T16:24:43Z gabc: pyc: I use lispy mostly that part of the config I have quite down, I just never used Windows to do lisp 2021-02-26T16:24:50Z beach: slyrus: Specifically about the pretty printer? I don't know. 2021-02-26T16:24:53Z gabc: and I'm sad it's not as easy as on linux/mac 2021-02-26T16:24:54Z Xach: pyc: hmm, i would try looking at some existing projects and libraries, and look at the .asd files 2021-02-26T16:25:04Z pyc: Xach: thanks 2021-02-26T16:25:27Z Nilby: slyrus: I've been thinking about it too, and if you check the irc logs death found some good papers. 2021-02-26T16:25:30Z gabc: Nilby: oh right I see so you just started the program in the terminal each time? 2021-02-26T16:25:32Z Xach: pyc: at their simplest, a system file defines a system with a name, a list of zero or more prerequisite systems, and a list of source files to compile and load. 2021-02-26T16:25:51Z Xach: pyc: so if you see an overwhelming system definition, know that it doesn't have to be that complex 2021-02-26T16:26:18Z gabc: And I'm not convinced I want to pay a lot for LispWorks 2021-02-26T16:26:58Z Nilby: gabc: For emacs, I just clicked on it, but for sbcl I was working on my own repl in a console window. 2021-02-26T16:28:03Z Nilby: gabc: I could go test it out, but I'm pretty sure slime will work too. 2021-02-26T16:28:19Z slyrus: beach: yes, with the pretty printer. sometimes even small-seeming details around the margins make things much more useful. The analogous example for me is the with-readtable stuff. makes readtables much more usable, IMO. 2021-02-26T16:28:45Z beach: I see. 2021-02-26T16:29:12Z gabc: Nilby: I have it working but I came here to see if people use something else I remember running into problems (that I forgot it's been a moment) I'll try out more and if I get into something specific I'll ask again 2021-02-26T16:30:39Z gabc: Nilby: your nickname is similar to the person who did `lish` is that you? 2021-02-26T16:30:40Z Nilby: slyrus: I've been trying to use the pretty printer to do indenting in my editor, but so far the results aren't so good. But I haven't tried much tweaking yet. I have to read/re-read some papers. 2021-02-26T16:31:16Z Nilby: gabc: That's my evil twim. 2021-02-26T16:31:21Z Nilby: twin 2021-02-26T16:31:31Z gabc: Oooh okok 2021-02-26T16:31:46Z slyrus: Nilby: yes, it's hard to use, and harder still to get the desired output. 2021-02-26T16:32:07Z gabc: If you see him tell him I had fun playing with that software :) 2021-02-26T16:32:57Z gioyik joined #lisp 2021-02-26T16:36:48Z srandon111 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T16:39:55Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T16:43:17Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T16:45:15Z logand: beach: is a text version sicl-specification.pdf available, prefereably via git? 2021-02-26T16:50:14Z long4mud quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-26T16:58:28Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:00:25Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-26T17:01:24Z beach: logand: Definitely. 2021-02-26T17:01:33Z beach: minion: Please tell logand about SICL. 2021-02-26T17:01:33Z minion: logand: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2021-02-26T17:01:36Z _heisig quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-26T17:01:58Z beach: logand: Look in the Specification directory. 2021-02-26T17:03:37Z cognemo joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:05:20Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:07:20Z beach: logand: If you have more specific questions about it, we hang out in #sicl. 2021-02-26T17:09:59Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T17:09:59Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T17:12:56Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:14:32Z logand: beach: thanks, i'll have a look 2021-02-26T17:15:27Z logand: hmm #sicl needs password 2021-02-26T17:15:55Z vegansbane6963 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T17:16:00Z Bike: oh, it's +r. you need to be logged in on freenode. 2021-02-26T17:16:01Z beach: You might have to be registered. 2021-02-26T17:17:03Z logand: can I have two identities in erc? 2021-02-26T17:17:39Z beach: You may have to start a separate Emacs session. 2021-02-26T17:17:43Z logand: i see 2021-02-26T17:17:52Z beach: I am not sure. Just guessing. 2021-02-26T17:19:48Z beach: logand I am usually present between 5am and 6-7pm (UTC+1 at the moment) with some breaks. But there are people in several other time zones that can answer questions in case you have any. 2021-02-26T17:21:19Z logand: beach: i need to think about questions first but if i find something to say, i will:-) 2021-02-26T17:23:13Z logand: beach: which country are you in? 2021-02-26T17:23:22Z logand: berlin here 2021-02-26T17:24:09Z zups joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:24:24Z zups quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-26T17:24:33Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T17:25:43Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:27:09Z long4mud joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:29:01Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:30:34Z beach: logand: Bordeaux, France. 2021-02-26T17:31:48Z logand: nice i've never been to bordeaux, maybe one day 2021-02-26T17:32:42Z beach: It's a beautiful place now. 2021-02-26T17:32:49Z warweasle: Is there where Bordeaux-Threads comes from? 2021-02-26T17:33:21Z beach: Yes, Dan Barlow came up with it during LSM/RMLL, perhaps 2000 or 2001 or something like that. 2021-02-26T17:33:41Z beach: Krystof may remember more details. 2021-02-26T17:35:30Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T17:35:37Z beach: That's also where gilberth created the basis for McCLIM. And where we came up with how SBCL should represent special variables in the presence of threads. 2021-02-26T17:35:48Z beach: Maybe Dan did ASDF there too? I can't remember. 2021-02-26T17:37:38Z Nilby misses Bordeaux gastronomically 2021-02-26T17:38:33Z beach: Oh, and the first ELS was organized in Bordeaux. I was the local organizer. 2021-02-26T17:39:05Z beach: Poor Krystof had to translate the speech of the adjunct mayor from French to English in real time. 2021-02-26T17:39:37Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T17:40:19Z beach: It appears that mayors of France have, as part of their job description, the obligation to organize a (free) cocktail party for visiting conferences, so we were invited to the splendid city hall for one of those. 2021-02-26T17:40:24Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:41:10Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:41:11Z aindilis joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:43:44Z Nilby: Apparently the mayoral duties in Bordeaux included the mayor (or assistant) said I looked like a sheep, but might have a black heart. 2021-02-26T17:44:28Z beach: Really? 2021-02-26T17:44:32Z Nilby: Yes. 2021-02-26T17:44:33Z beach: Wow! 2021-02-26T17:44:41Z Nilby: It was strange. 2021-02-26T17:44:46Z beach: I can imagine. 2021-02-26T17:45:16Z Nilby: But it's a lovely building. :) 2021-02-26T17:45:21Z beach: :) 2021-02-26T17:46:42Z beach: Dinner. I'll be back tomorrow. 2021-02-26T17:47:07Z Nilby: enjoy 2021-02-26T17:47:33Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:48:08Z warweasle: I forget how international the lisp community is. I'm just dumb american. Hopefully I'll get to travel some day. 2021-02-26T17:50:46Z Nilby: The Lisp community is interplanetary. 2021-02-26T17:52:08Z warweasle: Nilby: We have some lispers on the IIS? 2021-02-26T17:52:23Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:53:17Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-26T17:53:36Z charles`: warweasle I think he is referring to the aliens that gifted it to us. 2021-02-26T17:53:48Z Nilby: Hmmm. Probably. But that's not a planet. 2021-02-26T17:54:02Z contrapunctus: I thought they meant the Voyager 1 😄 2021-02-26T17:54:21Z warweasle: Wasn't there a probe saved by lisp? 2021-02-26T17:54:36Z contrapunctus: warweasle: ^ 2021-02-26T17:54:41Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:55:28Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T17:55:33Z warweasle: Anyone here know more about the NAVSEA programming language study. Lisp was one of the languages used and I'd love to get some context. 2021-02-26T17:56:33Z surabax_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:57:27Z warweasle: Namely, they held things against lisp like "not being understandable" and "the developer showed up late". 2021-02-26T17:57:53Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:58:54Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T17:59:17Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-26T18:03:55Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-26T18:04:17Z jeosol joined #lisp 2021-02-26T18:04:19Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T18:04:24Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T18:04:37Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T18:05:36Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T18:10:46Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-26T18:12:35Z surabax_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-26T18:12:50Z themasterbuilder joined #lisp 2021-02-26T18:16:16Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T18:17:10Z contrapunctus: warweasle: that's...simultaneously funny and sad. 2021-02-26T18:17:53Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-26T18:18:10Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T18:19:13Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T18:24:57Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T18:26:29Z warweasle: contrapunctus: I can't find the paper right now, but they were really leaning into Haskell. 2021-02-26T18:26:48Z warweasle: They gave it the win although lisp was done more quickly and with fewer errors. 2021-02-26T18:28:35Z casual_friday quit (Quit: %bye%) 2021-02-26T18:38:13Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-26T18:38:30Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T18:42:29Z dbotton joined #lisp 2021-02-26T18:42:42Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-26T18:45:50Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2021-02-26T18:57:56Z beach: That sounds very similar to the paper by Hudak and Jones that I often cite. 2021-02-26T18:58:10Z beach: When was this contest supposed to have happened? 2021-02-26T18:59:37Z alanz: wasnt paul hudak one of the founders of haskell? 2021-02-26T18:59:44Z beach: Hudak is one of the creators of Haskell, and that paper was specifically about Haskell, so it is not surprising that they favored it. 2021-02-26T18:59:47Z beach: Yes. 2021-02-26T19:00:06Z alanz: but that music thing he did had a very lispy feel to it 2021-02-26T19:00:18Z beach: But there was an entry for something called "relational Lisp" that beat the others. 2021-02-26T19:00:21Z sjl: warweasle: DS1, not Voyager 2021-02-26T19:00:28Z sjl: http://flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html 2021-02-26T19:01:23Z beach: I used that paper in my teaching, and I have an industry talk based on it. But not because of Haskell or Lisp, but because of the factor 20 difference in productivity reported, between different experts using the respective language that they master. 2021-02-26T19:01:41Z beach: warweasle: But that's not what you are asking about? 2021-02-26T19:02:16Z beach: Anyway, the title of that paper is "Haskell vs Ada vs ..." 2021-02-26T19:03:13Z beach vanishes. 2021-02-26T19:04:46Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T19:04:56Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T19:05:23Z scoofy joined #lisp 2021-02-26T19:06:44Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-26T19:06:59Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T19:08:17Z albusp_: Would anyone know why I can't load cl-freetype2 to lispworks7.1? Error is No applicable methods for make-instance with args ft-outline-funcs 2021-02-26T19:11:21Z domovod quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T19:17:44Z _heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-26T19:18:40Z _heisig quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-26T19:19:14Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-26T19:19:38Z holycow joined #lisp 2021-02-26T19:19:41Z holycow: hi 2021-02-26T19:21:09Z pyc: what is the right place to ask SLIME-related questions? #lisp or #emacs? 2021-02-26T19:21:20Z Bike: starting here is probably fine. 2021-02-26T19:21:33Z Bike: i think there is also a #slime, though i don't know how active it is. 2021-02-26T19:21:47Z edgar-rft: pyc: there's even a #slime channel :-) 2021-02-26T19:22:26Z holycow: if i have a string in the form of /dir/dir/dir/dir/filename.txt, i would like to find the last / char and then extract rest from that line. i have looked at strings, pattern matching and regex on clcookbook but i'm not finding how to find the last / char. any tips on what to google? 2021-02-26T19:22:42Z pyc: If I place the cursor on (+ 1 1) and type C-c C-c, it compiles it but does not show the result. What do I do to see the result? 2021-02-26T19:23:44Z Bike: C-x C-e 2021-02-26T19:24:11Z Bike: which is slime-eval-last-expression. 2021-02-26T19:24:42Z Bike: holycow: you can just use cl:position for that, if i understand your problem correctly 2021-02-26T19:24:45Z Bike: with :from-end t 2021-02-26T19:25:24Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-26T19:25:25Z holycow: oh, let me look that up. thank you. 2021-02-26T19:25:51Z Bike: (position #\/ "foo/bar/baz/x.txt" :from-end t) => 11, and then (subseq "foo/bar/baz/x.txt" (1+ 11)) => "x.txt" 2021-02-26T19:26:19Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T19:26:33Z pyc: Bike: C-x C-e is very different from C-c C-c. With C-c C-c I can place the cursor anywhere within an expression and it always compiles the top-level form. But C-x C-e only evaluates the last expression before the cursor. 2021-02-26T19:26:43Z holycow: aha! thank you kindly. reading up on position 2021-02-26T19:26:56Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T19:28:36Z Bike: pyc: C-M-x 2021-02-26T19:28:37Z Bike: maybe? 2021-02-26T19:28:53Z Bike: which is slime-eval-defun. 2021-02-26T19:29:40Z mdevos joined #lisp 2021-02-26T19:29:54Z Bike: there's a whole bunch of slime-eval-whatever functions 2021-02-26T19:30:15Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T19:31:00Z mdevos: Is there a formal set of guidelines for what to talk about here, or should I just rely on what I think is reasonable? 2021-02-26T19:31:22Z pyc: Bike: thanks C-M-x does it 2021-02-26T19:31:34Z Bike: well, to be on topic, talk about common lisp. beyond that, dunno 2021-02-26T19:31:46Z mdevos: Bike: ok 2021-02-26T19:32:41Z mdevos: does someone know a Scheme <-> Common Lisp compatibility layer? I want to use a Common Lisp library in Guile Scheme 2021-02-26T19:33:44Z mdevos: Currently, I'm using define-syntax & syntax-rules to define defvar, defun etc. 2021-02-26T19:34:07Z Bike: i think they are different enough languages that a "compatibility layer" would have to be very extensive. 2021-02-26T19:34:11Z mdevos: (My implementation isn't really conforming I think but whatever) 2021-02-26T19:34:12Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T19:35:49Z mdevos: I don't mind fudging many details (e.g. I don't put defun and defvar definitions in separate namespaces even though they should be in common lisp IIUC) 2021-02-26T19:36:08Z mdevos: also, I can modify the library I want to use 2021-02-26T19:36:53Z Bike: you may have to port it entirely. 2021-02-26T19:38:12Z mdevos: Bike: probably (-:. Though I can save myself some typing by defining the "defvar" and "defun" syntaxes in terms of Scheme's define, and maybe likewise for other things 2021-02-26T19:38:56Z Bike: some things are going to be more involved. i don't think scheme has anything like CLOS, for example 2021-02-26T19:39:16Z Bike: This isn't something that you can solve with a few search-replaces, in general 2021-02-26T19:39:21Z mdevos: Bike: actually, Guile Scheme does (in the (oop goops) module) 2021-02-26T19:40:22Z mdevos: but yes, there'll be many differences 2021-02-26T19:40:29Z mdevos: I'll just try and see how it goes ... 2021-02-26T19:41:40Z Nilby: How hard it will be porting, really depends on things like does it use FFI, does it use weird format features, how much CLOS, reader features etc, gray streams, etc. Guile has a lot of stuff, but there's a lot of corners in CL. 2021-02-26T19:44:17Z Feldman: I think there is a R5RS define-syntax for CL, no clue if it actually works tho 2021-02-26T19:45:18Z Feldman: https://github.com/g000001/srfi-46 2021-02-26T19:45:58Z Nilby: yes, also MIT-Scheme has a few CL-like things one might borrow if I remember 2021-02-26T19:46:06Z mdevos: Feldman: I'm porting from CL to Guile Scheme, not the other way around (-: But thanks, I didn't know that 2021-02-26T19:46:17Z Feldman: Oh whoops sorry, I misunderstood 2021-02-26T19:48:25Z Nilby: also in a pinch one might borrow from the elisp cl-lib 2021-02-26T19:49:25Z mdevos: Nilby: where can I find that (I'm not familiar with Emacs Lisp programming)? 2021-02-26T19:50:47Z mdevos: Never mind, I found it 2021-02-26T19:53:42Z mdevos left #lisp 2021-02-26T19:55:38Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-26T19:58:19Z aeth: The Scheme <-> Common Lisp compatibility layer is called writing a Scheme in Common Lisp. 2021-02-26T19:59:45Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-26T20:01:42Z Nilby: yes, but that won't get it running in guile 2021-02-26T20:02:09Z Nilby: now that I think if it, I wonder if one could have guile and ecl in the same image 2021-02-26T20:03:01Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-26T20:04:57Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-26T20:07:08Z Nilby: "I don't often Scheme, but when I do it's in Common Lisp." 2021-02-26T20:07:55Z holycow: heh 2021-02-26T20:08:22Z contrapunctus: aeth: what happened to Airship? 2021-02-26T20:10:59Z logand quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-26T20:14:31Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-26T20:14:34Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T20:17:31Z rogersm quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-26T20:18:21Z Krystof: beach: I earnt my speaker's travel costs that year :-) 2021-02-26T20:20:32Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T20:24:14Z Krystof: 2002 I think 2021-02-26T20:25:35Z Krystof: maybe 2001. Definitely not 2000. I can't remember how many I went to! 2021-02-26T20:25:55Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-02-26T20:26:07Z casual_friday joined #lisp 2021-02-26T20:30:12Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-26T20:30:28Z holycow: okay. now i get what people are talking about when they say, emacs + slime + lisp image based iterative development is the cats meaow 2021-02-26T20:30:43Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-26T20:30:44Z holycow: this actually makes learning programming super fun. 2021-02-26T20:30:51Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T20:33:29Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T20:35:36Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T20:35:36Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-26T20:35:50Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-26T20:36:07Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-26T20:53:58Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-02-26T20:58:36Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T21:02:04Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:02:50Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:12:38Z chrpape joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:14:28Z texno quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T21:19:47Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:22:44Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-26T21:23:00Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:23:42Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-26T21:24:01Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:24:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:25:05Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T21:27:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T21:27:41Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T21:28:31Z alandipert: welcome to the party holycow 2021-02-26T21:29:13Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:29:33Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:31:36Z pillton joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:31:45Z pillton quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-26T21:32:03Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-26T21:33:03Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T21:33:30Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:35:57Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T21:36:41Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:38:13Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T21:38:19Z slyrus_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:40:48Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T21:41:23Z slyrus_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T21:42:11Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:45:11Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:45:36Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:46:15Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-02-26T21:49:44Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T21:51:04Z aeth: contrapunctus: things take time 2021-02-26T21:51:56Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:52:26Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:52:50Z johan11 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T21:57:16Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T22:00:02Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T22:02:50Z paul0 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T22:06:56Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T22:08:39Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-26T22:13:44Z holycow: someone just asked on reddit about d3.js binding for clog. that would really be something else to see. 2021-02-26T22:14:14Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T22:14:47Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T22:18:55Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-26T22:21:48Z kam1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T22:22:15Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-26T22:28:25Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-26T22:29:20Z pfdietz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T22:30:36Z aeth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T22:31:59Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2021-02-26T22:33:43Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T22:34:33Z themasterbuilder quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-26T22:37:38Z phoe: holycow: I've let dbotton know 2021-02-26T22:38:07Z holycow: awesome 2021-02-26T22:40:57Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-26T22:42:05Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-26T22:43:31Z catt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T22:44:22Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-26T22:45:26Z phoe: holycow: mail him at david@botton.com - he'll get back to you 2021-02-26T22:48:43Z warweasle: That nick sounds familiar. 2021-02-26T22:48:50Z warweasle: What's his main project? 2021-02-26T22:48:59Z phoe: clog, I guess 2021-02-26T22:49:08Z phoe: the recentmost lisp gui project 2021-02-26T22:50:29Z warweasle: That's likely it. I still haven't found a GUI system I like. Much less one that works with lisp. 2021-02-26T22:50:29Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-26T22:54:03Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-26T23:07:31Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-26T23:11:12Z johan11 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-26T23:12:45Z retropikzel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-26T23:12:52Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-26T23:13:29Z retropikzel joined #lisp 2021-02-26T23:17:52Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-26T23:19:13Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-26T23:26:21Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T23:27:33Z warweasle is now known as fourweasle 2021-02-26T23:28:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T23:28:14Z Sheilong quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-26T23:28:29Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-26T23:38:56Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-26T23:39:30Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-02-26T23:39:32Z kevingal: Isn't Racket supposed to have a good built-in GUI? 2021-02-26T23:40:01Z kevingal: Or a toolbox of some description. 2021-02-26T23:41:09Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T23:45:18Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-26T23:45:37Z phoe: 1) I think it's https://github.com/racket/gui that is fairly complete, if basic 2021-02-26T23:45:50Z phoe: 2) you might have more luck asking on #racket because this is a lair of Common Lisp programmers 2021-02-26T23:47:37Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-26T23:49:21Z sm2n_ joined #lisp 2021-02-26T23:52:03Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-26T23:52:09Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-26T23:52:29Z Wezl: say I have a value and a list, and I want to reverse the list and have the value as the (cdr (last)), is there a better way than (apply #'list* (reverse (cons value lst)))? 2021-02-26T23:53:40Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-02-26T23:54:07Z _death: clhs revappend 2021-02-26T23:54:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_revapp.htm 2021-02-26T23:54:56Z sm2n_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-26T23:55:23Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp 2021-02-26T23:55:36Z Wezl: perfect! 2021-02-26T23:55:47Z iamFIREc1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-26T23:57:14Z _death: what are you using it for? 2021-02-26T23:58:23Z Wezl: I'm parsing a lisp-like language with its own notation for creating lists 2021-02-27T00:00:04Z Wezl: so I read the elements and an optional (cdr (last)) 2021-02-27T00:00:16Z Wezl: (is there a name for that?) 2021-02-27T00:00:46Z _death: I guess "tail".. that's how clhs calls it :) 2021-02-27T00:01:25Z rozenglass quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-27T00:01:44Z seok joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:02:31Z seok quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-27T00:02:33Z kevingal_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T00:02:33Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T00:04:09Z gabc: Well I got slime/sbcl working on windows \o/ 2021-02-27T00:04:56Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:15:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-27T00:18:32Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:23:28Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:23:53Z Wezl left #lisp 2021-02-27T00:24:49Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-27T00:25:25Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-27T00:29:02Z ukari joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:30:23Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:32:02Z catern joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:34:21Z catern: hi #lisp, I've always heard/assumed/believed that Common Lisp supports live upgrade of a running application, such that I can keep the runtime state of the application around while still upgrading it (rather than trashing all that runtime state with a process restart, like one might do to upgrade a Unix application written in C) 2021-02-27T00:34:43Z catern: is this accurate? do you have any pointers on where to learn more about this? are there any good descriptions of how people do this? 2021-02-27T00:35:12Z moon-child: catern: are you using emacs and slime? 2021-02-27T00:36:00Z catern: moon-child: probably for development, but probably not for a production instance of my application, right? 2021-02-27T00:38:02Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:41:48Z cgay_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T00:42:33Z Wezl joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:42:33Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-27T00:45:18Z gilberth_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:47:21Z gilberth_: Has someone a copy of CLtL1 handy? 2021-02-27T00:48:09Z Gnuxie[m]: gilberth_: yeah but it's gross and i don't want to touch it 2021-02-27T00:48:48Z omtrent quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-27T00:49:00Z gilberth_: Mine is falling apart and 100km away. I just wanted to know whether PARSE-MACRO is doing what I recall it should do. 2021-02-27T00:49:19Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-27T00:50:41Z Gnuxie[m]: hang tight, i'm going in 2021-02-27T00:51:07Z ravndal joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:53:48Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-02-27T00:53:48Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:53:48Z kreyren quit (Changing host) 2021-02-27T00:53:48Z kreyren joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:53:49Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:54:16Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T00:56:33Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-27T00:56:36Z gilberth_: Gnuxie[m]: Silly me, sorry. I found a specification in CLtL2. I must have misremembered. 2021-02-27T00:57:18Z gilberth_: I am very sorry, but thanks alot for your effort. 2021-02-27T00:57:33Z Gnuxie[m]: smh, yeah, it wasn't in the index 2021-02-27T00:58:25Z gilberth_: No. I misremembered and was looking at ANSI-CL, where it is not part of and forgot that CLtL2 also has a bunch of stuff not part of ANSI-CL. 2021-02-27T00:58:58Z gilberth_: So, being naive I just assumed CLtL1 would have that. 2021-02-27T01:00:10Z gilberth_: Anyhow, I am implementing a full PARSE-MACRO now as I am tired of ad hoc broken definitions of mine. 2021-02-27T01:02:17Z gilberth_ quit (Quit: Back to the cafe.) 2021-02-27T01:02:31Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T01:02:32Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-02-27T01:02:46Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T01:02:47Z supercoven_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-02-27T01:03:01Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T01:05:07Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-27T01:11:51Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-27T01:12:07Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-27T01:16:17Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-27T01:23:06Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-27T01:28:34Z int80h joined #lisp 2021-02-27T01:45:07Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T01:55:01Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-27T01:55:45Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-27T01:56:30Z pagnol joined #lisp 2021-02-27T01:57:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T01:57:29Z gzj joined #lisp 2021-02-27T01:59:19Z gko joined #lisp 2021-02-27T01:59:28Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-27T02:00:41Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-02-27T02:01:29Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T02:04:56Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T02:05:41Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T02:06:02Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-02-27T02:09:56Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-27T02:15:38Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-27T02:28:35Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-27T02:28:35Z semz quit (Changing host) 2021-02-27T02:28:35Z semz joined #lisp 2021-02-27T02:39:02Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T02:39:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T02:39:53Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-27T02:40:23Z wildlander joined #lisp 2021-02-27T02:40:25Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-27T02:53:05Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T02:53:26Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T02:55:06Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T02:55:28Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T02:56:02Z rozenglass joined #lisp 2021-02-27T02:56:50Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Quit: Пока, мир.) 2021-02-27T03:09:01Z seok joined #lisp 2021-02-27T03:09:29Z seok: is there any CL library for git 2021-02-27T03:12:00Z seok: o found it https://shinmera.github.io/legit/ 2021-02-27T03:14:13Z KahMue joined #lisp 2021-02-27T03:17:21Z bilegeek_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T03:18:58Z contrapunctus: seok: see also https://github.com/russell/cl-git 2021-02-27T03:19:16Z seok: the documentation link is dead :( 2021-02-27T03:20:39Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-27T03:21:38Z bilegeek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-27T03:27:05Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-27T03:28:51Z gitgoood joined #lisp 2021-02-27T03:29:27Z seok: It works ! 2021-02-27T03:29:28Z seok: https://pastebin.com/SXPMSrGq 2021-02-27T03:30:04Z gitgoood quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-27T03:31:34Z gitgood quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-27T03:33:04Z zacts joined #lisp 2021-02-27T03:33:04Z zacts quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-27T03:33:37Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-02-27T03:52:09Z bilegeek_ is now known as bilegeek 2021-02-27T03:52:21Z prxq_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T03:54:03Z int80h quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-27T03:55:56Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-27T03:59:53Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T04:00:19Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-27T04:00:36Z Alloc joined #lisp 2021-02-27T04:02:15Z Alloc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T04:02:47Z Alfr joined #lisp 2021-02-27T04:02:51Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-27T04:03:23Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2021-02-27T04:04:53Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-27T04:04:54Z KahMue: I'm currently trying out qtools. I want to customize QAbstractTableModel and QTableView. My implementation simply returns 13 for column-count and 2 for row-count. "data" returns 2021-02-27T04:04:54Z KahMue: (format NIL "(~a, ~a)" row column). 2021-02-27T04:04:55Z KahMue: But the TableView shows this annoying checkboxes .... any hints on how to get rid of them? 2021-02-27T04:04:55Z KahMue: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ik0fau2QAS5qtR6ehJVIrti9P0qxdj02/view?usp=sharing 2021-02-27T04:05:30Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2021-02-27T04:06:20Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-27T04:11:55Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-27T04:23:14Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T04:26:42Z KahMue quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-27T04:28:11Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-27T04:38:37Z seok: morning ! 2021-02-27T04:38:57Z beach: Hello seok. 2021-02-27T04:54:16Z kapil_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-27T04:55:45Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-27T04:56:10Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-27T05:00:05Z GZJ0X_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-27T05:00:26Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:02:09Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T05:02:29Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:03:03Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T05:03:22Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:06:06Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:08:19Z housel_ is now known as housel 2021-02-27T05:09:21Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:16:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-27T05:16:20Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T05:17:55Z contrapunctus: seok: there's also another cl-git which doesn't depend on a git binary or libgit - https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-git 2021-02-27T05:21:26Z wildlander quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2021-02-27T05:23:05Z daybreaks joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:24:05Z contrapunctus: fiddlerwoaroof: ^ would you consider naming it something else? It's difficult to search for it, as most results point to the libgit wrapper. 2021-02-27T05:25:07Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:26:36Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-27T05:30:30Z catt joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:31:51Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:32:03Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T05:32:57Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-27T05:33:20Z sm2n joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:33:22Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-27T05:34:17Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:36:07Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:36:27Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T05:39:11Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T05:47:15Z daybreaks quit 2021-02-27T05:58:39Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:01:07Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T06:01:28Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:04:02Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:04:11Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T06:07:18Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T06:09:22Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:15:30Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-27T06:16:07Z GZJ0X_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-27T06:16:29Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:20:23Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T06:21:13Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:25:56Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T06:30:02Z Oladon1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-27T06:30:46Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T06:31:26Z pyc: I know that ASDF is used to depend on other packages but if I am writing a "script" for personal use, is it acceptable to (require :asdf) or do you still recommend setting up a dependency via systems? 2021-02-27T06:32:35Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:36:15Z johan11 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:36:33Z Nilby: pyc: If it's for personal use, the question is "is it acceptable to you". But I have done a (require :asdf) manually in scripts and such. But unless you're using nothing from quicklisp, it's probably better to just (load "quicklisp/setup.lisp") or whatever incantation quicklisp puts in your .lisprc, which will get the appropriate asdf. 2021-02-27T06:37:57Z pyc: Nilby: It is acceptable to me but I am beginner, so I am concerned about not developing bad habits. That's why I thought of checking here with you guys once. 2021-02-27T06:38:43Z pyc: Nilby: I have (load "quicklisp/setup.lisp") in my ~/.sbclrc but it does not seem to load asdf by default. I am required to (require :asdf) despite that to be able to run my program in script mode: sbcl --script program.lisp 2021-02-27T06:39:49Z Nilby: The topic of running a lisp script from a fresh lisp, has many differing opinions in the community. Some some only run from slime, use roswell, some run from command line shell scripts, 2021-02-27T06:40:39Z pyc: Nilby: if the Lisp program is part of automation, one has to run it from shell scripts, right? SLIME is good only for interactively running the program when a human is present, is it not? 2021-02-27T06:40:56Z Nilby: Hmmm. quicklisp always loads asdf as far as I know, but maybe it doesn't register as "require"d 2021-02-27T06:41:16Z pyc: Nilby: by the way, is .lisprc a valid filename or was that just a placeholder you used in your message. I use .sbclrc. Do you use .lisprc on your system? Which CL implementation honours .lisprc? 2021-02-27T06:41:39Z pyc: let me reinstall quicklisp fresh and see if asdf works without having to require it. 2021-02-27T06:41:39Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:41:45Z Nilby: Yes, that's a placeholder. 2021-02-27T06:42:16Z thmprover quit (Quit: Up, up, and away) 2021-02-27T06:42:30Z Nilby: Sometimes quicklisp may load its own version of asdf and not the one that is from "require" 2021-02-27T06:42:33Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-27T06:43:22Z pyc: Okay, I have ~/.sbclrc setup by Quicklisp. I have foo.lisp with: (format t "~a~%" (uiop:getcwd)). I run: sbcl --script foo.lisp. I get error: Package UIOP does not exist. 2021-02-27T06:43:46Z pyc: surprisingly, sbcl --load foo.lisp --quit works fine. 2021-02-27T06:44:22Z sauvin joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:44:38Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:45:38Z pyc: The man page for sbcl --script option says: As a runtime option equivalent to --noinform --disable-ldb --lose-on-corruption --end-runtime-options --script . See the description of --script as a toplevel option below. Not sure if one of these options is causing ~/.sbclrc to be ignored. 2021-02-27T06:46:02Z pyc: Let me put some debug print statements in ~/.sbclrc and see if it is getting loaded at all. 2021-02-27T06:47:04Z Nilby: Hmmm. I haven't used --script. It probably avoids most setup. Likely for use as in a #! script 2021-02-27T06:47:53Z pyc: Confirmed. sbcl --script does not load ~/.sbclrc but sbcl --load foo.lisp --quit does load ~/.sbclrc. 2021-02-27T06:48:29Z Nilby: I think a good habit is to have your script work with a very fresh unconfigured sbcl, without any .sbclrc or dot files. That way you can use it as a different user, and have it work. 2021-02-27T06:48:54Z pyc: Nilby: yes, agree. that is how I will test. 2021-02-27T06:48:56Z Nilby: Hmm. So it must be doing --no-userinit too 2021-02-27T06:49:08Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T06:49:29Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:50:00Z pyc: Okay, so the --script option is documented twice in man page. Not sure what the difference is between them The first entry says: As a runtime option equivalent to --noinform --disable-ldb --lose-on-corruption --end-runtime-options --script . See the description of --script as a toplevel option below. 2021-02-27T06:50:12Z pyc: The second entry says: Implies --no-sysinit --no-userinit --disable-debugger --end-toplevel-options. 2021-02-27T06:50:19Z pyc: It looks like the second entry is relevant for what I am doing. 2021-02-27T06:51:00Z pyc: The first entry is listed under "Supported runtime options". The second entry is listed under "toplevel options". 2021-02-27T06:51:01Z Nilby: It really depends on what the script is doing, whether you want to load the uers's init file. If it provides a repl than maybe, otherwise probably not. 2021-02-27T06:51:39Z Nilby: Or at least it give the script more control not to use the users setup. 2021-02-27T06:52:02Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T06:52:07Z Nilby: But for development of course it's easier to have your prefered things loaded automatically. 2021-02-27T06:52:46Z Nilby: sbcl is picky (or quirky even) about the order of it's arguments 2021-02-27T06:53:19Z Nilby: some are parsed by the "c kernel" some by later lisp code 2021-02-27T06:54:50Z Bourne joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:55:06Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T06:55:18Z Nilby: All those --script arguments do seem to help expectations for most scripts. 2021-02-27T06:55:27Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:57:12Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-27T06:58:55Z Nilby: If only one could pass --lose-on-corruption to running intuitions. 2021-02-27T06:59:13Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-27T07:00:49Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-27T07:01:42Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T07:05:34Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T07:09:53Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T07:11:22Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T07:11:31Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-27T07:11:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T07:14:20Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-27T07:14:34Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T07:15:40Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-27T07:15:52Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-27T07:16:47Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T07:17:18Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-27T07:30:35Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T07:30:38Z aggin joined #lisp 2021-02-27T07:31:14Z aggin: how can I add files in a folder in asdf:defsystem's :components ? 2021-02-27T07:31:36Z johan11 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-27T07:32:04Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-27T07:35:03Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T07:35:51Z zmv- joined #lisp 2021-02-27T07:39:52Z theothornhill joined #lisp 2021-02-27T07:44:06Z GZJ0X_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-27T07:44:29Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T07:52:00Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-27T07:52:03Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-27T07:53:38Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T08:01:02Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T08:02:45Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T08:03:33Z GZJ0X_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-27T08:04:54Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-02-27T08:07:37Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-27T08:13:27Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2021-02-27T08:20:51Z quadrassel4321 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T08:33:07Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T08:33:27Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T08:34:11Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T08:34:26Z aggin quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-27T08:38:54Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-27T08:39:38Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-27T08:49:45Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-27T08:50:42Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T08:55:00Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-27T08:55:58Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-27T09:01:34Z imode1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T09:07:32Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T09:09:56Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-27T09:10:46Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-27T09:13:55Z epony quit (Quit: upgrade) 2021-02-27T09:17:26Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T09:22:21Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T09:22:25Z dwts_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T09:22:26Z Tordek quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T09:22:26Z vert2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-27T09:29:21Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-27T09:31:02Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-27T09:46:07Z Posterdati: hi 2021-02-27T09:47:14Z contrapunctus: hi 2021-02-27T09:47:17Z pyc: hi 2021-02-27T09:47:20Z moon-child: hi 2021-02-27T09:47:21Z seok: hi 2021-02-27T09:47:27Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-27T09:47:31Z susam: hi 2021-02-27T09:47:49Z contrapunctus: Oh, aggin left 🤔 2021-02-27T09:48:19Z Posterdati: please help! I need to render csv data in a diagram, what is the easiest way to do so, using common lisp? Thanks! 2021-02-27T09:48:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-27T09:48:56Z Nilby: What kind of diagram? 2021-02-27T09:49:15Z edgar-rft: the *easiest* is pitit it out in a long uncomprehensible list diagram :-) 2021-02-27T09:49:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-27T09:49:31Z edgar-rft: *spit* it out of course 2021-02-27T09:49:44Z Posterdati: Nilby: harmonics amplitude vs armonic orders 2021-02-27T09:51:15Z contrapunctus: Posterdati: does this help? https://github.com/tkych/donuts 2021-02-27T09:51:20Z edgar-rft: in some beginner book there is a program for making ascii art diagrams, probably Touretzky 2021-02-27T09:52:15Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T09:52:19Z Posterdati: contrapunctus: mmmh, interesting! I will try it 2021-02-27T09:52:25Z Posterdati: contrapunctus: thanks 2021-02-27T09:53:26Z Nilby: Ah, if it's just for one thing I might use wxMaxima which has great graphing, but if it's for use in program, maybe cl-csv -> vecto ? 2021-02-27T09:55:42Z Nilby: If it's part of a UI one should probably use whatever graphics that UI has availible, eg. McCLIM drawing, or qtools drawing 2021-02-27T09:56:12Z contrapunctus: They said "diagram" so I figured it's for a document or something 2021-02-27T09:56:36Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-27T09:56:58Z epony joined #lisp 2021-02-27T09:57:34Z Nilby: I wrote my own csv -> graph so I'd use that, but I can't reccomend it for anyone else. 2021-02-27T10:02:22Z carkh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-27T10:05:03Z bjorkint0sh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T10:09:09Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-27T10:09:17Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:09:51Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-27T10:10:01Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T10:12:41Z madage joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:13:36Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-27T10:13:58Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:15:29Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:15:33Z varjagg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T10:16:07Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:26:49Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:27:41Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:28:12Z pagnol joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:29:19Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-27T10:30:02Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:30:08Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:31:09Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-27T10:32:26Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T10:40:57Z pagnol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T10:41:16Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-27T10:44:12Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:52:09Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:52:57Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-27T10:56:08Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T10:56:35Z scymtym joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-27T11:00:13Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset) 2021-02-27T11:01:58Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:06:35Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:07:01Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-27T11:07:40Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-27T11:08:21Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-27T11:17:15Z terrorjack quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-27T11:22:28Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-27T11:22:45Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:27:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T11:27:38Z frgo joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:29:36Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:34:30Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:37:05Z GZJ0X__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-27T11:37:20Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:37:26Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:38:07Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T11:38:30Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:39:15Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:41:32Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-27T11:42:39Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-27T11:42:56Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:48:59Z terrorjack joined #lisp 2021-02-27T11:52:38Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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PS It's like this on CCL and ECL, but SBCL is just fine. 2021-02-27T12:03:17Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-27T12:06:20Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-27T12:06:50Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-27T12:11:44Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T12:12:31Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-27T12:13:48Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-27T12:16:30Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-27T12:16:52Z luis joined #lisp 2021-02-27T12:21:26Z gitgood joined #lisp 2021-02-27T12:23:05Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-27T12:23:23Z domovod joined #lisp 2021-02-27T12:43:38Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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While executing through slime, it is creating the directory at ~/foo/bar/ (not my current directory). 2021-02-27T14:39:30Z pyc: now the problem is that (uiop:getcwd) in SLIME shows ~/workspace as SLIME's current directory. Still (ensure-directories-exist "foo/bar/" :verbose t) is creating the folders at ~/foo/bar/. Why isn't it creating them at ~/workspace/foo/bar/? 2021-02-27T14:39:59Z Nilby: *default-pathname-defaults* vs (uiop:getcwd) 2021-02-27T14:41:27Z pyc: Nilby: you are right. *default-pathname-defaults* shows my home directory. Do all CLHS file functions default to that? 2021-02-27T14:41:39Z Nilby: *default-pathname-defaults* is where lisp file functions will work, and getcwd is where lower level os things will default to 2021-02-27T14:42:13Z pyc: it gets confusing because `uiop:delete-directory-tree` defaults to current directory but `ensure-directories-exist` defaults to home directory. 2021-02-27T14:42:56Z pyc: It looks like as a best practice I should then use absolute paths everywhere by concatenating (uiop:getcwd) myself to all paths I need to work with? 2021-02-27T14:43:28Z Nilby: It's terribly confusing. I use a change-directory function or with-directory which always sets both. 2021-02-27T14:44:15Z pyc: :( 2021-02-27T14:44:51Z Nilby: But, yes absolute paths can also work, but to me it's too annoying a requirement. 2021-02-27T14:46:13Z Nilby: When I first started using CL it drove me crazy. Then I wrote my own things which are always consistent. 2021-02-27T14:47:06Z Nilby: But I can't recommend anyone follow my path to madness. 2021-02-27T14:48:43Z Nilby: It's probably best to use the normal idiomatic things, and test any file operations thoroughly. 2021-02-27T14:49:01Z pyc: what would be an idiomatic way to handle this? 2021-02-27T14:50:06Z eoyath joined #lisp 2021-02-27T14:52:49Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-27T14:53:59Z Nilby: I'm probably not the person to ask. But I notice the excellent quicklisp software uses the standard CL functions and carefully gets it right, but adjusts for portability with #+ 2021-02-27T14:54:48Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-27T14:55:02Z pyc: Nilby: can you point me to the quicklisp code you are looking at? 2021-02-27T14:57:58Z Nilby: I'm not looking at anything specific, but most stuff in the ~/quicklisp/quicklisp/ directory, does a lot of file and directory operations. 2021-02-27T14:59:30Z Nilby: it wrap around some implementaion quirks in impl-util.lisp 2021-02-27T15:00:10Z Nilby: but of course quicklisp can't really safely use uiop 2021-02-27T15:01:53Z Nilby: but I should probably refrain from giving advice, since I rarely do things the recommended way 2021-02-27T15:02:12Z Nilby: until I learn it the hard way 2021-02-27T15:03:33Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-27T15:04:31Z pyc: thanks Nilby for sharing your knowledge so far. This fact about *default-pathname-defaults* was eye opening for me. 2021-02-27T15:04:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T15:05:33Z Nilby: That was one I had to learn the hard way after deleting all the corporate databases. 2021-02-27T15:18:15Z lansiir joined #lisp 2021-02-27T15:18:20Z zmv- joined #lisp 2021-02-27T15:19:04Z _oldtopman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-27T15:22:19Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T15:22:32Z Josh_2: Afternoon 2021-02-27T15:24:13Z Nilby: Hi Josh_2 2021-02-27T15:28:13Z Josh_2: How's it going Nilby? 2021-02-27T15:30:15Z Nilby: The earth spins fast, but I code slow 2021-02-27T15:31:44Z estest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T15:34:16Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-27T15:34:23Z Josh_2: Well I just watched a video of a tortoise beating a hare in a straight line race ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 2021-02-27T15:34:58Z Nilby: Nice. Maybe there's hope for me then. :o 2021-02-27T15:40:14Z citizenajb joined #lisp 2021-02-27T15:42:35Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-27T15:47:05Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-27T15:47:06Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T15:50:00Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-27T15:50:46Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-02-27T15:55:17Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-27T15:56:20Z cartwright quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-27T15:59:18Z cartwright joined #lisp 2021-02-27T16:07:00Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T16:08:36Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-27T16:08:40Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-27T16:11:31Z pyc: Why is it named *default-pathname-defaults*? What is the significance of 'default' on both sides of the name? also why 'defaults' (plural) in the end when all it contains is a single path value? 2021-02-27T16:13:53Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T16:17:30Z pyc: Is there something in CLHS to (1) copy file (2) copy directory recursively? Or do I need to take a look at uiop for it? 2021-02-27T16:18:07Z pyc: uiop indeed has copy-file. What about copy directory? 2021-02-27T16:18:43Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-02-27T16:23:33Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-27T16:23:52Z TMA: pyc: pathname has several components (version, type, ...) and the values of those components in the value of *default-pathname-defaults* provide the defaults 2021-02-27T16:25:45Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-27T16:27:40Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T16:28:16Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T16:31:47Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T16:35:55Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-27T16:35:59Z troydm joined #lisp 2021-02-27T16:36:39Z Nilby: :defaults is keyword argument to make-pathname, which sets the default values for the components. *default-pathname-defaults* is effectively the default value of the :default keyword the make-pathname. It's plural because it specifies the defaults for the multiple components of the pathname, like host, device, etc. The idea that it should work on things like VMS, TOPS-20, Unix, DOS, LispM, etc. is why it's so crazy. 2021-02-27T16:39:28Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T16:40:30Z domovod quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-27T16:40:42Z Nilby: It's like a URL before URLs were invented, but that sadly can't fully capture URL syntax now, and leaves a lot of flexibility to be inconsistent. 2021-02-27T16:48:46Z citizenajb left #lisp 2021-02-27T16:54:12Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-27T16:58:11Z johan11 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T16:58:44Z johan11 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-27T16:59:59Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T17:01:45Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T17:02:23Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-27T17:02:56Z epony joined #lisp 2021-02-27T17:03:36Z long4mud quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-27T17:03:52Z Xach: mfiano: are you aware of today's build failure in algae? 2021-02-27T17:03:54Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T17:04:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T17:04:46Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T17:04:59Z mfiano: Xach: no, but your log is 403 forbidden. 2021-02-27T17:06:51Z mfiano: ignore me. it's 2021 already 2021-02-27T17:08:30Z zmv- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-27T17:08:32Z mfiano: fixed 2021-02-27T17:09:37Z zmv- joined #lisp 2021-02-27T17:14:11Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-27T17:17:35Z yangby joined #lisp 2021-02-27T17:22:41Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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But he uses GETF on an element of that list. 2021-02-27T17:46:20Z holycow: (getf *music* :name) is not acting on an element of the list? 2021-02-27T17:46:49Z holycow: okay actually that is good enough for me to google further 2021-02-27T17:46:54Z splittist: holycow: no - it's acting on the whole *music* list. 2021-02-27T17:47:22Z holycow: aha 2021-02-27T17:47:35Z splittist: try (mapcar (lambda (plist) (getf plist :name)) *music*) 2021-02-27T17:47:41Z splittist: (or whatever it is I meant to type) 2021-02-27T17:47:44Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-27T17:47:59Z Xach: mfiano: thanks 2021-02-27T17:48:10Z Xach: splittist: great project streak on github! 2021-02-27T17:48:49Z splittist: Xach: if only it was new code, instead of breaking out stuff I'd written before. But - Thanks! 2021-02-27T17:49:20Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T17:49:42Z holycow: splittist: oh, that moves me forward. okay let me explore. thanks. 2021-02-27T17:50:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T17:51:53Z holycow: ohhh ... i see what you are saying. okay thank you. 2021-02-27T17:52:11Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T17:52:56Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-27T17:55:50Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-02-27T17:57:57Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2021-02-27T18:12:02Z Feldman joined #lisp 2021-02-27T18:13:41Z cracauer` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T18:27:19Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-27T18:27:31Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I guess hunchentoot or you can set up a timeout 2021-02-27T20:29:12Z _death: maybe it's just a too large timeout 2021-02-27T20:29:19Z juliusdeane: how do I get slime to print sdtout output from a function called through cffi? 2021-02-27T20:29:39Z juliusdeane: I'm able to call printf and flush to get output when running sbcl from the command-line 2021-02-27T20:29:50Z yuan: @_death I thought the timeout is set by default, let me check 2021-02-27T20:29:51Z juliusdeane: but in the slime repl, it doesn't work for some reason 2021-02-27T20:30:14Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T20:30:34Z Alfr: juliusdeane, I think it'll be in the inferior-lisp buffer. 2021-02-27T20:30:40Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T20:31:27Z juliusdeane: ah, ok 2021-02-27T20:31:36Z juliusdeane: yeah it is lol 2021-02-27T20:31:37Z juliusdeane: thanks 2021-02-27T20:32:27Z yuan: So it does have read & write timeout, maybe something went wrong in that function 2021-02-27T20:35:56Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-27T20:37:04Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-27T20:37:11Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-27T20:42:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-27T20:42:43Z yuan: None of the functions in the call stack has timeout parameter 2021-02-27T20:43:03Z yuan: I'll bring this up to the author, maybe he knows what's going on. 2021-02-27T20:43:05Z yuan: Thanks! 2021-02-27T20:44:30Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-27T20:47:26Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-27T20:47:34Z _death: yuan: the socket file descriptor has associated timeouts 2021-02-27T20:51:17Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T20:51:46Z yuan: I see, I'll need to look at where it's created then. 2021-02-27T20:53:34Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-27T20:55:05Z _death: hunchentoot's acceptor has timeout initargs.. it calls a set-timeouts function in accept-connections, prior to calling handle-incoming-connection, which in turn creates a thread and eventually calls process-connection, which calls get-request-data, which calls read-initial-request-line.. 2021-02-27T20:55:34Z imode1 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T20:55:55Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-27T20:56:57Z yuan: Somehow this timeout isn't taking effect. 2021-02-27T20:57:19Z yuan: I can see that the stream object's timeout attribute is 20.0 2021-02-27T20:57:38Z _death: maybe try to create a small test case 2021-02-27T20:58:17Z juliusdeane left #lisp 2021-02-27T20:58:44Z catt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T20:59:42Z _death: well, maybe it doesn't even try to read from the socket, just waits until it's readable 2021-02-27T20:59:58Z slyrus joined #lisp 2021-02-27T21:00:32Z yuan: Oh that's possible 2021-02-27T21:00:34Z yuan: 1: (SB-SYS:WAIT-UNTIL-FD-USABLE 12 :INPUT NIL T) 2021-02-27T21:00:34Z yuan: Locals: 2021-02-27T21:00:34Z yuan: SB-IMPL::DIRECTION = :INPUT 2021-02-27T21:00:37Z yuan: SB-IMPL::FD = 12 2021-02-27T21:00:40Z yuan: SB-IMPL::SERVE-EVENTS = T 2021-02-27T21:00:44Z yuan: SB-IMPL::SIGNALP = NIL 2021-02-27T21:00:47Z yuan: SB-IMPL::STOP-SEC = NIL 2021-02-27T21:00:50Z yuan: SB-IMPL::STOP-USEC = NIL 2021-02-27T21:00:53Z yuan: TIMEOUT = NIL 2021-02-27T21:00:55Z _death: there's no need to paste things here.. 2021-02-27T21:00:56Z yuan: SB-IMPL::TO-SEC = NIL 2021-02-27T21:00:56Z yuan: SB-IMPL::TO-USEC = NIL 2021-02-27T21:00:59Z yuan: 2021-02-27T21:01:07Z yuan: Sorry 2021-02-27T21:01:22Z yuan: I was going to point out that TIMEOUT = NIL 2021-02-27T21:02:34Z _death: but read-initial-request-line suggests it should be in a read-byte 2021-02-27T21:04:38Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-27T21:04:45Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-27T21:05:27Z yuan: cl+ssl:read-byte -> cl+ssl:steam-read-byte -> sb-sys:wait-until-fd-usable 2021-02-27T21:05:46Z yuan: This is what on my stackframe 2021-02-27T21:06:19Z _death: well, cl+ssl's definition looks a bit strange 2021-02-27T21:07:50Z _death: its ssl-stream class has a deadline slot.. is it filled 2021-02-27T21:08:03Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-27T21:11:36Z _death: maybe make-ssl-server-stream should pass a :deadline initarg with value derived from the stream it wraps 2021-02-27T21:11:57Z yuan: Yeah :deadline is nil 2021-02-27T21:14:16Z yuan: I mean the deadline attribute is nil 2021-02-27T21:15:49Z _death: well, what happens if you give it a deadline? 2021-02-27T21:17:05Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-27T21:18:26Z yuan: Ok I understand what you mean now, this make-ssl-server-steam does look a bit wrong 2021-02-27T21:18:49Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-27T21:19:10Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-27T21:20:01Z _death: to try, you can call (setf cl+ssl::ssl-stream-deadline) in an :around method for initialize-connection-stream .. 2021-02-27T21:20:13Z _death: or just patch it ;) 2021-02-27T21:23:28Z yuan: Ok, I set the deadline attribute, restarted and can't see that thread anymore, I think that's it 2021-02-27T21:26:11Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2021-02-27T21:26:56Z _death: I guess not many stumble on this code path.. for example, I use hunchentoot for years, but with nginx frontending, so no need for ssl acceptor 2021-02-27T21:27:26Z yuan: I'll just patch it for now ;-) 2021-02-27T21:28:18Z yuan: I see, I really don't know much about web and just want to simple server for my blog so I just put everything into hunchentoot 2021-02-27T21:29:23Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-27T21:30:10Z _death: hunchentoot documentation hints at it at https://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/#proxy but should likely be improved 2021-02-27T21:31:04Z _death: there are blog posts I guess 2021-02-27T21:35:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-27T21:36:10Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-27T21:36:25Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-27T21:36:51Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-27T21:37:45Z cage_ quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-27T21:49:48Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 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seconds) 2021-02-27T23:54:12Z zolferino joined #lisp 2021-02-27T23:54:24Z zolferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-27T23:55:56Z fengshaun_ is now known as fengshaun 2021-02-27T23:57:25Z zolferino joined #lisp 2021-02-27T23:57:26Z zolferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-28T00:00:57Z zolferino joined #lisp 2021-02-28T00:01:02Z zolferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-28T00:03:22Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T00:04:34Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T00:09:14Z Xach: i just can't build oct, even with a big dynamic-space-size 2021-02-28T00:10:29Z Wezl left #lisp 2021-02-28T00:13:13Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-28T00:13:41Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T00:14:59Z charles` joined #lisp 2021-02-28T00:17:35Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-28T00:17:36Z zolferino joined #lisp 2021-02-28T00:17:37Z zolferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-28T00:17:55Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-28T00:19:29Z 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2021-02-28T02:40:36Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T02:40:36Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2021-02-28T02:49:20Z djuber joined #lisp 2021-02-28T02:52:34Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-28T02:53:29Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-28T02:55:52Z Wezl: does anyone know why this errors? (in ecl) 2021-02-28T02:55:54Z mrchampion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-28T02:55:54Z Wezl: (defun (reproduce v) (multiple-value-bind (integer emd) (parse-integer v :junk-allowed t) (do-body))) 2021-02-28T02:56:24Z Wezl: a reading error, not because I miss-spelled end :) 2021-02-28T02:56:46Z Xach: Wezl: usually it is (defun reproduce (v) ...) 2021-02-28T02:57:20Z Wezl: :facepalm: 2021-02-28T02:58:50Z Wezl: yes, that was causing the problem, somehow I miss typed both the original code and the code to "reproduce" 2021-02-28T02:59:49Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2021-02-28T03:02:03Z Wezl: the error messages weren't that nice though... 2021-02-28T03:03:31Z Xach: What's the error? 2021-02-28T03:05:11Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-28T03:11:28Z Wezl: In function SYMBOL-NAME, the value of the first argument is 2021-02-28T03:11:30Z Wezl: (INTEGER END) 2021-02-28T03:11:32Z Wezl: which is not of the expected type SYMBOL. 2021-02-28T03:12:01Z Wezl: which looks like the error is in multiple-value-bind 2021-02-28T03:14:39Z aeth_ is now known as aeth 2021-02-28T03:18:48Z Wezl: XD my number parser is the biggest function in my lisp parser 2021-02-28T03:20:12Z Wezl left #lisp 2021-02-28T03:47:21Z imode1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-28T03:50:46Z vegansbane6963 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T03:51:21Z prxq joined #lisp 2021-02-28T03:54:56Z prxq_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T03:57:44Z yuan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T03:58:33Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:01:14Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2021-02-28T04:02:19Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:02:39Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T04:03:19Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:05:12Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-28T04:11:40Z kevingal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T04:15:57Z drbluefall joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:20:26Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:23:54Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-28T04:26:40Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:30:31Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T04:32:32Z supercoven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-28T04:32:49Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:32:50Z supercoven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-02-28T04:33:04Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:33:05Z supercoven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-02-28T04:33:19Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:33:20Z supercoven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-02-28T04:33:24Z egp_ quit (Quit: EXIT) 2021-02-28T04:33:34Z supercoven joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:33:35Z supercoven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2021-02-28T04:40:04Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-28T04:43:01Z holycow joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:45:31Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:53:27Z Josh_2: morning beach 2021-02-28T04:55:17Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T04:59:27Z epony joined #lisp 2021-02-28T04:59:53Z susam: Good morning beach 2021-02-28T05:00:06Z susam: Good morning and good evening everyone! :) 2021-02-28T05:00:15Z gj joined #lisp 2021-02-28T05:00:28Z holycow: o/ 2021-02-28T05:00:37Z pyc: hey beach. which timezone are you from? is it morning there? 2021-02-28T05:01:12Z beach: UTC+1 2021-02-28T05:01:12Z gj: good morning 2021-02-28T05:01:19Z moon-child: I guess beach is in CET 2021-02-28T05:02:05Z charles`: Hi everyone 2021-02-28T05:02:10Z karlosz_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T05:02:14Z gj: i have a few questions about lisp things. 2021-02-28T05:02:25Z moon-child: ask 2021-02-28T05:02:39Z pyc: beach: oh! 6:02 am there right now. you are a early morning riser! nice. 2021-02-28T05:02:50Z gj: if i want to use a package in my program, say something like Drakma, how do I tell the program to do that? 2021-02-28T05:03:27Z susam: gj: Are you using Quicklisp? 2021-02-28T05:03:33Z beach: pyc: It's a genetic defect in my family. My parents were so bored between 4am and the beginning of work that they got second jobs as newspaper distributors. 2021-02-28T05:03:51Z charles`: add it in the :depends-on section in your asdf 2021-02-28T05:04:03Z gj: I am, yes. Am not quite sure how it all works, though. 2021-02-28T05:04:04Z beach: gj: You make yourself an ASDF system definition with a :depends-on clause. 2021-02-28T05:04:05Z susam: gj: If you are using Quicklisp. It is as simple as (ql:quickload :drakma). 2021-02-28T05:04:09Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-28T05:04:09Z karlosz_ is now known as karlosz 2021-02-28T05:04:51Z gj: Alright, I will go and try that, thank you all so much. 2021-02-28T05:04:57Z holycow: gj, someone did a writeup here: https://ashokkhanna-530.medium.com/an-introduction-to-lisp-packages-7a9ee352006e 2021-02-28T05:05:34Z gj: Ah that is great. I will take a look. 2021-02-28T05:09:31Z charles`: In general, what would it take to get one of you professional Lispers to review my code? 2021-02-28T05:12:19Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-28T05:13:19Z egp_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T05:17:07Z gj quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-28T05:20:18Z beach: charles`: Just paste it to, say, plaster.tymoon.eu. 2021-02-28T05:30:40Z Nilby joined #lisp 2021-02-28T05:35:48Z charles`: Thank 2021-02-28T05:49:13Z holycow: .... soooo .... i finally figured out how to load local files into a clog page 2021-02-28T05:49:19Z holycow: damnit 2021-02-28T05:49:50Z holycow: this means i will now have to take my stupid audio player app and make a stupid media server 2021-02-28T05:50:06Z holycow: i'm watchign 12 monkeys in clog right now. it took like 1 line of code 2021-02-28T05:50:50Z holycow: this is ridiculous. i'm too stupid to be able to code. and yet, this is possible. 2021-02-28T05:51:15Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-02-28T06:01:35Z marusich joined #lisp 2021-02-28T06:21:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-28T06:24:33Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-28T06:25:35Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-02-28T06:34:26Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-28T06:36:18Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-02-28T06:42:49Z pyc: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_open.htm - :if-exists :rename-and-delete says "The existing file is renamed to some other name, then it is deleted but not expunged, and then a new file is created." -- What is the difference between delete and expunge? 2021-02-28T06:45:18Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-28T06:47:36Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T06:50:37Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2021-02-28T06:50:47Z Nilby: pyc: In old OSs you could delete things, but they weren't really deleted until a system process expunged them. This allowed temporary un-delete. Sometimes the user could trigger an expunge. Now, in practice, there is no expunge. Except secretly there is in SSDs. 2021-02-28T06:51:42Z pyc: Nilby: Is there any best practice regarding whether to use :rename-and-delete or to use :supersede with :if-exists? 2021-02-28T06:54:34Z djuber quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-28T06:54:38Z Nilby: I don't know about best practice, but on some systems rename-and-delete might lose file birth date, but preserve deleted running code. I would usually choose supersed, but it depends on some subtleties of your application. 2021-02-28T06:55:39Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-28T06:58:17Z saturn2: i have always used supersede 2021-02-28T06:58:24Z Nilby: Supersede truncates the existing file and may preserve some meta data. But rename-and-delete could be more reliable with regardds to things like permissions. 2021-02-28T06:58:39Z Nilby: (or less reliable, depending) 2021-02-28T06:59:46Z Nilby: For example, when Emacs saves a buffer, it usually uses the equivalent of rename-and-delete. 2021-02-28T07:00:44Z Nilby: But many other applications, the "Save" operation is like :supersede. 2021-02-28T07:03:42Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-28T07:03:46Z Nilby: Sorry, I probably give too complicated answers. 2021-02-28T07:05:42Z alandipert quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T07:06:06Z alandipert joined #lisp 2021-02-28T07:11:09Z pyc: Nilby: no, that is a great answer. That is the kind of details I wanted to know. thank you for sharing your knowledge. 2021-02-28T07:11:28Z pyc: so looks like I need supersede because I want a more Unixy behavior 2021-02-28T07:17:00Z saturn2: the standard leaves it up to the implementation to decide on "reasonable" behavior, which in practice means if it's really important you'd better do it yourself 2021-02-28T07:19:29Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-28T07:21:19Z pyc: It looks to list all files under a directory recursively I need to do (directory "foo/**/*.*"). For some reason, (directory "foo/**/*") shows filenames like "bar" and ".bar" but files like "bar.txt", "bar.txt.gz", etc. Where is the wildcard notation documented? 2021-02-28T07:21:20Z domovod joined #lisp 2021-02-28T07:22:18Z pyc: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_w.htm#wild says it is implementation-dependent: wild adj. 1. (of a namestring) using an implementation-defined syntax for naming files 2021-02-28T07:23:08Z pyc: the problem I am facing now is that if so much is implementation-dependent, should I just choose SBCL as my implementation and write code for it? 2021-02-28T07:24:08Z beach: You may regret that some day. :) 2021-02-28T07:24:34Z beach: Just put an abstraction around it and customize its implementation for different Common Lisp implementations. 2021-02-28T07:27:39Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-28T07:27:55Z saturn2: you should probably use uiop:directory-files 2021-02-28T07:28:46Z pyc: saturn2: thanks 2021-02-28T07:28:49Z pyc: beach: thanks 2021-02-28T07:29:07Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-28T07:30:19Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T07:33:10Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-28T07:33:44Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T07:35:33Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-28T07:41:03Z pyc: saturn2: thanks! uiop is really extensive. I see it chooses *.* as the wildcard pattern automatically for directory listing on SBCL 2021-02-28T07:41:31Z pyc: It has a (defparameter *wild-file-for-directory* ...) in pathname.lisp to choose the right wildcard pattern based on implementation. 2021-02-28T07:49:32Z saturn2: yep 2021-02-28T07:51:43Z nostoi joined #lisp 2021-02-28T07:52:26Z saturn2: the attempt to support every feature of every 1980s filesystem, while leaving it completely undefined what to do when such features don't exist, was probably the worst mistake in the CL spec 2021-02-28T07:52:44Z egp__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T07:52:44Z egp_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T07:57:58Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2021-02-28T07:57:58Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-02-28T08:01:48Z saturn2: see also https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/files.html 2021-02-28T08:03:19Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-28T08:16:42Z markasoftware: Why is CCL's generic function implementation so weird 2021-02-28T08:19:35Z beach: How is it weird? 2021-02-28T08:19:48Z beach: I mean, in what way is it weird? 2021-02-28T08:21:28Z frgo quit 2021-02-28T08:22:32Z markasoftware: I'm still trying to wrap my head around it...it seems they do not pass the next methods as an argument to the method-function 2021-02-28T08:23:36Z markasoftware: And it seems like they threw away MOP compliance to do it this way, because make method lambda does not exist 2021-02-28T08:23:45Z beach: The default way is to pass a list of next methods, but for specified classes and generic functions, they may change that for reasons of performance. 2021-02-28T08:24:12Z beach: Yes, make-method-lambda has been abandoned in several implementations. 2021-02-28T08:25:54Z pve joined #lisp 2021-02-28T08:26:03Z markasoftware: What do you mean "for specified classes"? 2021-02-28T08:27:16Z beach: A general rule that says what client code can do is that a client-specific method must not be applicable when given only arguments that are direct instances of library classes. 2021-02-28T08:28:08Z beach: So since clients can't write such methods, the library is free to violate specified behavior when this violation can't be observed by client code. 2021-02-28T08:29:50Z markasoftware: But client code could access the method-function, right? So its not quite unobservable? 2021-02-28T08:30:16Z markasoftware: Using mop:method-function 2021-02-28T08:30:39Z beach: Hold on... the method function is not what receives the list of next methods. 2021-02-28T08:31:25Z beach: The method function has the same lambda list as the DEFMETHOD form, minus specialization. 2021-02-28T08:31:31Z markasoftware: The method-function takes a list of arguments and a list of next methods according to amop, I think. 2021-02-28T08:31:58Z beach: You may be right. 2021-02-28T08:32:40Z beach: But that doesn't count as observable. 2021-02-28T08:32:57Z markasoftware: What you just described is what ccl does 2021-02-28T08:33:38Z beach: I see. 2021-02-28T08:34:03Z beach: But I bet you it doesn't do that if you define your own method class. 2021-02-28T08:36:21Z beach: What CCL does in this case would be a very normal optimization for the case when only specified classes are involved, because it is way faster that passing a list of arguments and a list of next methods. 2021-02-28T08:36:55Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-28T08:38:41Z beach: mop compute-effective-method 2021-02-28T08:38:41Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-effective-method.html 2021-02-28T08:39:51Z markasoftware: I believe ccl does this for custom classes, which is how i discovered this in fact. There's some fancy magic (their word, not mine) that goes into call next method I'm still trying to figure out 2021-02-28T08:40:09Z scoofy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-28T08:40:12Z Nilby: The CCL MOP maybe a little messy but it ran on a 68k Mac with 1mb memory. 2021-02-28T08:40:21Z markasoftware: They admit their generic functions don't really work with amop 2021-02-28T08:40:38Z beach: I haven't studied what CCL does, so it is entirely possible that the violate specified behavior even when they are not supposed to. 2021-02-28T08:40:52Z beach: s/the/they/ 2021-02-28T08:41:44Z markasoftware: Is it your understanding that a mop compliant implementation's method functions, for a custom method class, would always have to take a list of arguments, then a list of next methods 2021-02-28T08:41:51Z markasoftware: ? 2021-02-28T08:42:01Z scoofy joined #lisp 2021-02-28T08:42:01Z beach: Yes, I think so. 2021-02-28T08:42:28Z beach: Er, wait... 2021-02-28T08:42:30Z markasoftware: Thats my main concern, since I'm writing code that relies on this property, and while I'm OK with implementation specific exceptions I want to get my "default" code right 2021-02-28T08:43:02Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-28T08:43:07Z beach: It is probably possible for client code to customize make-method-lambda, compute-effective-method, call-method, make-method, etc. to do something else 2021-02-28T08:43:30Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-02-28T08:43:35Z beach: But with no such customization, it is my understanding that the default is what you said. 2021-02-28T08:43:41Z markasoftware: Yeah, I suppose with make method lambda it could be changed... 2021-02-28T08:43:57Z markasoftware: Thank you! 2021-02-28T08:44:08Z beach: Have you looked at what closer-mop does in case of CCL? 2021-02-28T08:44:32Z markasoftware: Not much, yet. 2021-02-28T08:44:52Z beach: Maybe it fixes this problem. 2021-02-28T08:50:48Z shka_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T08:51:26Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-28T08:54:03Z zolferino joined #lisp 2021-02-28T08:54:08Z zolferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-28T08:56:40Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2021-02-28T08:57:00Z zolferino joined #lisp 2021-02-28T08:57:00Z zolferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-28T09:00:11Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:01:22Z varjagg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T09:01:33Z zolferino joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:01:43Z zolferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-28T09:04:46Z zolferino joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:04:53Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-28T09:04:55Z zolferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-28T09:06:08Z egp_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:06:11Z egp__ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:07:35Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:09:53Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:11:06Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-28T09:14:46Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:18:58Z cage_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:21:29Z heisig joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:24:26Z zolferino joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:24:26Z zolferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-28T09:27:15Z zolferino joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:27:25Z zolferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-28T09:31:01Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-28T09:33:20Z zolferino joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:33:20Z zolferino quit (Excess Flood) 2021-02-28T09:34:47Z zaquest joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:45:22Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:45:51Z catt joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:55:10Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2021-02-28T09:55:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-28T09:57:26Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-28T09:59:58Z Inline joined #lisp 2021-02-28T10:05:56Z carkh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-28T10:13:04Z varjagg joined #lisp 2021-02-28T10:13:28Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-28T10:17:34Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-28T10:29:21Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-28T10:33:18Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T10:34:32Z jackdaniel: it does fix some problems with ccl, but at a cost of shadowing operators 2021-02-28T10:34:51Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2021-02-28T10:35:13Z jackdaniel: i.e a casual standard-generic-function is not recognized by some closer-mop methods (because it provides its own defgeneric version - on ccl) 2021-02-28T10:44:03Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T10:46:15Z skapata joined #lisp 2021-02-28T10:46:54Z surabax joined #lisp 2021-02-28T10:47:44Z alanz: I have a general question. I.n. e.g pharo smalltalk, you can load source from well-defined git repos etc via metacello. You can then work on the live image, changing whatever, and then do a diff for the modified in-image source vs the original, and possibly commit it back. Is that kind of workflow possible in common-lisp? 2021-02-28T10:48:29Z alanz: i.e. capture that changes from a live image and the files it was loaded from? 2021-02-28T10:48:33Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-28T10:49:09Z aartaka joined #lisp 2021-02-28T10:56:55Z beach: Certainly not using only the standard. An implementation could provide something like that, but I know of no implementation that does. 2021-02-28T10:57:49Z alanz: Thanks, I was pretty sure that was the case, just checking I was not missing something. FWIW, that experience is pretty good, in pharo 2021-02-28T10:58:29Z alanz loves the fact that anything is in principle *possible* 2021-02-28T11:00:06Z vegansbane6963 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2021-02-28T11:01:34Z Nilby: I do in-image editing and have an in image git tool, but I like to save my work to permanent storage frequently. CL editors can do that, but we tend to like the emacs style of editing. I've tried the pharo style, but I'm not so fond of it. 2021-02-28T11:03:06Z alanz: Nilby, how do you keep things in sync? I find myself killing and restarting the lisp image frequently, to make sure I have everything lined up. Particularly when messing with package definitions, which affect scope 2021-02-28T11:03:30Z alanz: (I'm still learning what these things do, so mess it up often) 2021-02-28T11:04:15Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-28T11:04:52Z Nilby: I usualy edit on the function or class level, so when I'm satisfied with the function I send it back to the file buffer which I can then git diff. 2021-02-28T11:04:55Z beach: alanz: Current Common Lisp implementations are easy to make inoperable. That fact discourages in-image manipulations. 2021-02-28T11:05:51Z alanz: "edit on the function or class level": In the REPL? 2021-02-28T11:06:26Z alanz: beach, so what is a normal workflow? restart the image often? 2021-02-28T11:06:56Z beach: I suspect that's what most people do. 2021-02-28T11:07:10Z alanz: ok, so I am not missing something then :) 2021-02-28T11:09:25Z beach: The plan for SICL is to use multiple first-class global environments so that if you mess up the current one, you will get a default one that works. And the plan is also to keep the source text associated with every definition, which would make your workflow possible. 2021-02-28T11:10:11Z Nilby: I don't restart much. But I use multiple images when I might do something that introduces bugs to the editor/repl. And it's true most modern lisps are easier to crash. 2021-02-28T11:13:06Z Nilby: But it's true I sometimes find order of definition/loading bugs I didn't notice when just editing functions/packages. 2021-02-28T11:13:58Z Nilby: I'll be glad to have first-class global environments again. 2021-02-28T11:14:41Z beach: One mistake I often make is to introduce some circular dependency. While working interactively, the dependencies exist, so the problem does not manifest itself. 2021-02-28T11:15:36Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-28T11:17:02Z alanz: modern lisps are easier to crash: is this because they have drifted away from being first-class, do everything in them environments? 2021-02-28T11:17:49Z alanz: And what makes you think we will have first-class global environments again? 2021-02-28T11:18:08Z alanz just trying to understand the ecosystem 2021-02-28T11:18:09Z Nilby: Old LispOSs took a long time to boot. Also they had an (vague) idea of separate users/sessions. 2021-02-28T11:18:59Z Nilby: On on old lisps fully restarting the image was basically rebooting 2021-02-28T11:19:21Z beach: alanz: I guess Interlisp was more like Smalltalk. But Common Lisp is mainly derived from Maclisp. 2021-02-28T11:19:35Z Nilby: my memory is fuzzy on the specifics, but basically you could log-out to reset your environment 2021-02-28T11:20:04Z moon-child: fwiw work has been ongoing to revive interlisp 2021-02-28T11:20:13Z beach: alanz: We will have first-class global environments in SICL because I already implemented them. 2021-02-28T11:20:30Z moon-child: (alanz: you may find this interesting https://interlisp.org/) 2021-02-28T11:21:20Z alanz: so there was motivation to avoid that, so the effort was put in for hot code reload etc 2021-02-28T11:21:20Z alanz: Wikipedia interlisp: First appeared 1968; 53 years ago. Respect. 2021-02-28T11:21:38Z Nilby: Yes. They have the old Interlisp environment working fairly well. The only problem I saw was that it doesn't know how to idle the processor. 2021-02-28T11:21:54Z alanz: beach, SICL is the common-lisp IDE? 2021-02-28T11:21:59Z beach: minion: Please tell alanz about SICL. 2021-02-28T11:22:00Z minion: alanz: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL 2021-02-28T11:22:15Z alanz: :+1: 2021-02-28T11:22:30Z moon-child: Nilby: iirc some of the machinery for idling was there, used for idle animations or screensavers I think?, so not a completely insurmountable task to restore 2021-02-28T11:23:36Z Nilby: I'm sure it's just a tweak to the VM 2021-02-28T11:24:05Z Nilby: But I didn't try since I'm pretty invested in CL 2021-02-28T11:24:49Z alanz: beach, what is the one-line motivation for SICL? 2021-02-28T11:25:07Z moon-child: as I recall, interlisp supports cl and 1 or 2 other lisps 2021-02-28T11:25:14Z alanz: apart from: it sucks, time to do it over 2021-02-28T11:25:54Z beach: alanz: Create a Common Lisp implementation that is adapted to modern processors, that uses CLOS a lot more than existing implementations, and that is way simpler to maintain. 2021-02-28T11:26:05Z alanz: :+1: 2021-02-28T11:26:28Z Nilby: Hmmm. Maybe I should try to port to it. Then I will have to figure out how to get it to not eat the full cpu. 2021-02-28T11:26:55Z alanz: how does it relate to the standard? will it do all of it, or leave parts out? eg that whole filepath back-compatibility wart? 2021-02-28T11:27:03Z moon-child: Nilby: https://github.com/Interlisp/medley/wiki/How-to-Run-Medley-without-pinning-the-CPU 2021-02-28T11:27:13Z beach: alanz: I was convinced that maintainers of existing Common Lisp implementations would not accept the fairly radical modifications that I wanted to see. 2021-02-28T11:27:35Z beach: alanz: SICL? It will follow the standard. 2021-02-28T11:27:50Z alanz: makes sense. Hard to move things when there is so much history behind it 2021-02-28T11:28:46Z beach: Yes, and my estimate was that it would be just as hard, perhaps harder, to transform an existing implementation, as creating a new one. 2021-02-28T11:28:56Z Nilby: moon-child: Awesome. Thanks! 2021-02-28T11:29:11Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T11:29:37Z kamen joined #lisp 2021-02-28T11:31:37Z Nilby: If you read the code of most CL implementations, it's not hard to get the sense that they could really use a clean slate approach. 2021-02-28T11:31:43Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-28T11:31:51Z beach: Indeed. 2021-02-28T11:33:24Z alanz: trouble with that is there is always so much baked-in hard-won knowledge in the old ones, that make them reliable 2021-02-28T11:33:39Z alanz: or at leaast predictable, or "known" 2021-02-28T11:34:30Z Nilby: The interesting thing about CL, is parts of an implementation would useful to many type of progams as separate customizable/subclassable module. 2021-02-28T11:38:49Z random-nick joined #lisp 2021-02-28T11:40:29Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-28T11:41:19Z beach: That's why I try to extract many SICL modules as separate repositories. 2021-02-28T11:42:17Z beach: We already have Clostrum (first-class global environment) Trucler (lexical compile-time environments), Incless (printer), Eclector (reader), etc. 2021-02-28T11:42:52Z beach: Oh, and Cleavir (compiler framework) of course. 2021-02-28T11:44:56Z Nilby: I'm already using Eclector, and I imagine I'll end up having to use some of those other pieces too. It's awesome that they can already work on top of other implementations. 2021-02-28T11:45:05Z cartwright quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T11:45:43Z beach: Well, they had to from the start, because I am using them to bootstrap SICL on an existing host Common Lisp implementation. 2021-02-28T11:46:55Z alanz: sounds good 2021-02-28T11:47:02Z cartwright joined #lisp 2021-02-28T11:47:39Z beach: Also, that means I can often persuade someone else to be the maintainer. :) 2021-02-28T11:48:22Z Nilby: A good deal all around 2021-02-28T12:03:45Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T12:04:07Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T12:08:16Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-28T12:12:21Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-28T12:15:04Z rogersm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-28T12:15:59Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-28T12:17:29Z terpri_ is now known as terpri 2021-02-28T12:48:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T12:49:36Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T12:50:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-28T13:11:19Z ggoes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-28T13:24:25Z niac joined #lisp 2021-02-28T13:24:52Z semz: Is there a trick to easily reading nested backquotes or do you just have to be very careful and strict about the various contexts you're working in? 2021-02-28T13:26:21Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-28T13:28:13Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-28T13:29:42Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-28T13:30:16Z _death: there are "pattern matching" hints in cltl2 backquote appendix 2021-02-28T13:32:49Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-28T13:34:16Z semz: Thanks, that looks exactly like what I was looking for. 2021-02-28T13:35:54Z Sheilong joined #lisp 2021-02-28T13:51:54Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-28T13:55:44Z nicktick joined #lisp 2021-02-28T13:58:08Z pyc: What does UIOP stand for? 2021-02-28T13:58:30Z beach: Nothing. Just consecutive keys on a US keyboard. 2021-02-28T13:58:39Z beach: Just like ASDF. 2021-02-28T13:59:22Z _death: unother iystem oefinition pacility 2021-02-28T13:59:31Z beach: :) 2021-02-28T13:59:54Z contrapunctus: pyc: Utilities for Implementation and OS Portability IIRC 2021-02-28T13:59:57Z beach: pyc: We can figure one out if you are not happy with that answer. 2021-02-28T14:00:11Z beach: Like that, yes. 2021-02-28T14:00:16Z contrapunctus: Oh sorry I ruined it ^^' 2021-02-28T14:00:23Z Xach: U and I Overcoming Problems [With Lisp] 2021-02-28T14:00:31Z contrapunctus: rofl Xach 2021-02-28T14:02:14Z susam: I always wonder why ASDF does not stand for ASDF System Definition Facility. 2021-02-28T14:02:58Z Nilby: Is there some design decision why slime/sly subprocess output is not delivered to the repl buffer? 2021-02-28T14:05:12Z pyc: how stable is uiop? has it ever broken backward compatibility so far? 2021-02-28T14:07:13Z Xach: pyc: what prompts the question? 2021-02-28T14:08:35Z pyc: Xach: I am making my script depend on uiop functions rather than CLHS functions. I decided this after I realized that (directory "vid/*") lists all files in CLisp but not in SBCL. What the wildcard characters mean seem to differ greatly from implementation to implementation. 2021-02-28T14:09:14Z pyc: Xach: I realized I can't write even the most basic file I/O operation in a portable manner without writing a compatibility layer. UIOP seems like that compatibility layer. 2021-02-28T14:09:37Z Xach: pyc: it is a compatibility layer, yes 2021-02-28T14:09:54Z pyc: Xach: now the reason I chose CL was because I want my script to run without issues and without maintenance even 20 years into the future. That is why I want to know how stable UIOP is. 2021-02-28T14:12:09Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:13:05Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-28T14:13:05Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-28T14:14:26Z pyc: do you people write your script in portable manner using uiop or do you write for a specific implementation like SBCL? 2021-02-28T14:14:41Z beach: I don't write scripts. 2021-02-28T14:15:37Z pyc: beach: what do you write and how do you write them? 2021-02-28T14:15:50Z beach: I just consider the REPL to be my shell. 2021-02-28T14:16:14Z Xach: pyc: i generally write scripts in a way that works as i expect in sbcl. 2021-02-28T14:16:29Z pyc: beach: do you write any programs that you save in files for the long term? if so, do you use something like uiop or do you target a specific implementation like SBCl? 2021-02-28T14:16:59Z pyc: Xach: so you are okay to rely on SBCL-specific behaviour that may not be portable? 2021-02-28T14:17:20Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:17:39Z beach: pyc: Yes, my programs are in files, and I use ASDF to load them. 2021-02-28T14:17:50Z pyc: Xach: can you point me to some of your code, especially if you have something that manipulates files? I am hoping as a beginner I can learn from code written by experts. 2021-02-28T14:18:03Z Xach: pyc: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client is an example 2021-02-28T14:18:09Z beach: pyc: I try very hard to write programs that don't use any implementation-specific features. 2021-02-28T14:18:29Z Xach: pyc: for getting wildcard entries, i don't mind using sbcl. that is a very tiny part of the programs that i write. 2021-02-28T14:18:36Z pyc: beach: so for something like list all the files in a directory recursively, you are likely to use UIOP instead of CLHS? 2021-02-28T14:18:38Z renzhi joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:18:52Z pyc: Xach: understood. thanks! 2021-02-28T14:19:23Z pyc: I think uiop has obvious benefits of portability. Are there any disadvantages of calling uiop functions in my code that I need to be aware of? 2021-02-28T14:19:56Z _death: pyc: I think there is a chance for uiop code to work in 20 years (maybe even the same uiop version, on sbcl ;).. but I dislike its interfaces 2021-02-28T14:20:03Z Xach: pyc: uiop includes a lot of things in it. if you are only concerned about one small piece like wildcards it may be prudent to extract it instead of taking all of uiop. 2021-02-28T14:21:07Z pyc: _death: what do you prefer then? hand-write what you need? another alternative to uiop? 2021-02-28T14:21:08Z eoyath joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:21:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T14:21:17Z beach: pyc: I might use ASDF or UIOP occasionally. 2021-02-28T14:21:20Z eoyath quit (Client Quit) 2021-02-28T14:21:23Z pyc: Xach: that makes sense. thanks for the advice. 2021-02-28T14:21:44Z Xach: pyc: it can also help if you make things that you need and like and don't worry about portability. if people want to use it, let them worry about it if they have a different environment. (this is just an option, not a requirement.) 2021-02-28T14:22:33Z Xach: pyc: i think sometimes the means of distribution and widespread use becomes a roadblock to even getting started. 2021-02-28T14:22:40Z Xach: that is, overthinking it. 2021-02-28T14:23:13Z Xach: "if i can't give my friend a 500KB executable that has a gui and runs on all OSs why even bother using lisp" is a little extreme but less extreme but similar sentiments have been expressed 2021-02-28T14:23:14Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:23:19Z pyc: Xach: you are right. I guess I am overthinking it. I wish I started learning CL when I was much younger. I didn't worry about these kind of things when I was younger. Now I waste a lot of time in analysis paralysis. 2021-02-28T14:23:36Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2021-02-28T14:23:57Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:24:34Z Xach: pyc: I don't think portability is a bad thing, but it is not a simple story in CL, and you can actually ignore it for quite a while when learning and growing. 2021-02-28T14:24:53Z Xach: I wish it was simpler but its complexity need not be an initial roadblock (for many tasks) 2021-02-28T14:25:15Z Kingsy quit (*.net *.split) 2021-02-28T14:25:22Z Kingsy joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:25:31Z eoyath joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:25:37Z Nilby: pyc: I just did a survey of some of my lisp scripts from 20 years ago. BTW uiop didn't exist 20 yrs ago. Everything that still works, works because they don't depend on external conditions. But for most useful things, the external conditions have changed enough that they don't run. 2021-02-28T14:25:48Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T14:25:51Z _death: pyc: I find myself still using cl-fad to walk directories.. because then I don't need to first gather all names into a list 2021-02-28T14:26:29Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:27:34Z susam: I agree with Xach. If I could mangle a famous quote, I would say: Make it work. Then make it beautiful. Then if you really have to, make it portable." 2021-02-28T14:28:11Z susam: The programs you write for yourself should first solve your own problems. Only then it may solve others' problems. 2021-02-28T14:32:03Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:33:45Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:34:07Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-28T14:34:44Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2021-02-28T14:35:09Z niac joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:40:29Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-02-28T14:50:03Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-02-28T14:51:10Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:53:57Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-28T14:57:08Z ggoes joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:57:33Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-02-28T14:57:50Z niac joined #lisp 2021-02-28T14:59:59Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1) 2021-02-28T15:00:26Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-28T15:04:12Z kaiwulf joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:08:27Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:11:17Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:13:14Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-28T15:13:47Z sxmx joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:14:25Z Josh_2: Afternoon 2021-02-28T15:17:04Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-28T15:21:58Z Josh_2: Is CFFI's foreign-string-to-list equivalent to pythons bytes_to_native_str(ffi.unpack ... ? 2021-02-28T15:25:02Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:31:03Z Josh_2: I've been stuck for the past few days on a single function, I'll be happy to see the behind of this project 2021-02-28T15:36:47Z Josh_2: Well seems I solved that issue 2021-02-28T15:36:49Z Josh_2: :D 2021-02-28T15:41:14Z Josh_2: Well darn I finally figured it out 2021-02-28T15:45:19Z kam1 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:46:41Z kevingal joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:51:24Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:52:07Z puchacz joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:52:28Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-28T15:52:28Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:53:21Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:54:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-28T15:54:47Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:55:09Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-28T15:55:46Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-28T15:55:59Z Josh_2: What is no-applicable-method-error (SBCL) a subclass of? I'm trying to handle a missing method error 2021-02-28T15:56:18Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-28T15:56:31Z Josh_2: Obviously I could just use condition or error but then if there is another type of condition then the test would still pass 2021-02-28T15:57:22Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-28T15:58:14Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-28T16:01:53Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-28T16:02:01Z heisig: Josh_2: Have a look at (sb-mop:class-precedence-list (find-class 'sb-pcl::no-applicable-method-error)). 2021-02-28T16:06:08Z Josh_2: Thanks 2021-02-28T16:13:10Z spxy joined #lisp 2021-02-28T16:22:45Z niac quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-28T16:23:58Z drbluefall quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-28T16:24:40Z phoe: Josh_2: do you control the generic function? 2021-02-28T16:25:04Z phoe: if yes, maybe you instead want to add a method to NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD? 2021-02-28T16:31:49Z kevingal_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T16:38:23Z thmprover joined #lisp 2021-02-28T16:40:28Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-28T17:00:30Z long4mud quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-28T17:08:22Z delezos joined #lisp 2021-02-28T17:11:18Z domovod quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0) 2021-02-28T17:14:11Z jprajzne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T17:14:32Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2021-02-28T17:17:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2021-02-28T17:21:03Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T17:24:41Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-28T17:25:18Z delezos quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2021-02-28T17:25:33Z seok quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-28T17:27:19Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-28T17:28:21Z waleee-cl joined #lisp 2021-02-28T17:29:00Z aeth joined #lisp 2021-02-28T17:44:19Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T17:45:40Z holycow joined #lisp 2021-02-28T17:55:10Z rogersm joined #lisp 2021-02-28T18:03:33Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-02-28T18:28:07Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-28T18:30:58Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-02-28T18:31:55Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-28T18:42:21Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T18:42:42Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-02-28T18:45:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-28T18:46:39Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-28T18:48:55Z kaiwulf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2021-02-28T18:50:44Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-28T19:03:03Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-28T19:05:34Z zooey quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2021-02-28T19:07:58Z zooey joined #lisp 2021-02-28T19:08:14Z holycow: hi. 2021-02-28T19:09:26Z holycow: noob question. so i am able to parse text files, chop up the input in interesting wasy now and stuff that into alists and plists and then get the data out sorted in various ways. 2021-02-28T19:09:36Z Xach: holycow: that's not a question!! 2021-02-28T19:09:49Z holycow: well, it's a predicate to a q 2021-02-28T19:10:41Z holycow: suppose i wanted to write a function that (using keystrokes) allows me to itarate up or down the list and 'pop' entries from the top of a pllist/alist and push it to the bottom or something like that 2021-02-28T19:11:00Z holycow: i've looked at loop and iterate and i thiiiink i kinda get some ways to think about that. 2021-02-28T19:11:33Z holycow: what might i want to look at as a concept and google to be able to do something like that? i'm not searching up anything obvious, everyone seems to iterate over a whole list and be done with it. 2021-02-28T19:12:37Z Xach: holycow: like keystrokes without hitting enter? 2021-02-28T19:12:49Z holycow: *nod* arrow keys 2021-02-28T19:15:02Z Xach: holycow: that's a good q, i haven't done something like that. i've always thought of making an emacs UI a la sldb or the inspector for that. 2021-02-28T19:15:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: holycow: basically you can choose between either implementing the terminal-control bits yourself, or use something like linedit/readline/etc. 2021-02-28T19:15:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: or curses 2021-02-28T19:15:28Z mh__ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T19:15:30Z holycow: OH! 2021-02-28T19:15:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: for the key-handling 2021-02-28T19:16:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: You probably also need a "cursor" structure that maintains the current element of the list and the directions you can go from there. 2021-02-28T19:17:39Z holycow: ok, i knew i was completely not thinking about this right. that looks right. 2021-02-28T19:17:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: The annoying thing is that "raw" keyboard input is really crufty in terminals 2021-02-28T19:17:45Z choegusung joined #lisp 2021-02-28T19:18:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: For navigation you might look into zippers 2021-02-28T19:19:02Z holycow: never heard of that before, huh 2021-02-28T19:19:24Z holycow: okay, lots to google. off i go. thanks for the directional tips 2021-02-28T19:19:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's basically a functional way to implement a navigable data structure 2021-02-28T19:26:28Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-28T19:28:26Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T19:29:52Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-28T19:30:15Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-28T19:30:22Z meursault joined #lisp 2021-02-28T19:41:56Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-28T19:43:02Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T19:44:55Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T19:50:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-28T19:51:24Z iskander quit (Quit: bye) 2021-02-28T19:55:04Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2021-02-28T19:55:57Z ljavorsk joined #lisp 2021-02-28T19:57:15Z traxex joined #lisp 2021-02-28T19:57:27Z jonatack_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T19:57:53Z _death: holycow: you can start with this https://gist.github.com/death/e4dcaf9e1a2dc8aacdef32a9831f25e5 2021-02-28T19:59:04Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-28T20:00:28Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-02-28T20:08:29Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-28T20:08:35Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2021-02-28T20:11:28Z iskander joined #lisp 2021-02-28T20:16:12Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-02-28T20:19:36Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-28T20:21:27Z jonatack_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-28T20:23:33Z holycow: _death: oh very interesting. thank you kindly! added to notes/todo 2021-02-28T20:24:36Z ane quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2021-02-28T20:31:21Z kenran quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T20:31:37Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-28T20:31:38Z kenran joined #lisp 2021-02-28T20:34:50Z phantomics quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T20:35:12Z _death: well, gtg now.. but I updated it with move up/down commands 2021-02-28T20:38:02Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2021-02-28T20:38:16Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T20:42:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: Hi, I'm trying to write a function that runs a server in another thread (bordeaux-threads). The server is blocking on accept (usocket). Is there any way for me to kill the thread while it's blocking on accept or make accept timeout? I'm using destroy-thread (bordeaux-threads) right now, but I wanted a less abrupt way to kill the server thread. 2021-02-28T20:44:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: The gist of what I've been trying: (loop while *server-is-alive do (let ((client-connection (usocket:accept server-socket))) ...)) 2021-02-28T20:46:16Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T20:46:38Z Josh_2: if you want a nicer way of stopping the thread you could use catch and then use interrupt-thread to get the thread to throw 2021-02-28T20:47:24Z Josh_2: You can also use (listen ..) to see if your socket will block 2021-02-28T20:50:44Z Josh_2: phoe: I didn't know you could do that, do you have an example? 2021-02-28T20:50:59Z Oladon joined #lisp 2021-02-28T20:54:34Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-28T20:54:36Z nij joined #lisp 2021-02-28T20:55:03Z nij: morning lispers :-D I wonder what you use for user selection? 2021-02-28T20:55:24Z nij: In elisp, there's ivy already, which lets the user select things with much flexibility. 2021-02-28T20:55:41Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2021-02-28T20:56:27Z nij: .. and, if ivy/helm is really the way to go. Is there an easy way to call them within a drop-down frame from common lisp? 2021-02-28T20:57:33Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-28T20:57:45Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T20:58:20Z Josh_2: phoe: dw I found one on stackoverflow 2021-02-28T20:58:32Z Josh_2: nij: I don't understand what you mean 2021-02-28T20:59:06Z akoana joined #lisp 2021-02-28T21:00:56Z nij: Josh_2: you've used ivy or helm before? 2021-02-28T21:01:02Z nij: Or dmenu? 2021-02-28T21:03:53Z Sheilong quit 2021-02-28T21:04:36Z phoe: Josh_2: a tl;dr should be (defmethod no-applicable-method ((gf (eql #'my-gf))) &rest args) ...) 2021-02-28T21:05:23Z carkh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T21:05:34Z carkh joined #lisp 2021-02-28T21:06:26Z carkh is now known as carkh_ 2021-02-28T21:07:51Z carkh_ is now known as Carkh 2021-02-28T21:08:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: thanks josh, I was able to get it by looking closer at the bordeaux library, but instead of interrupt I ended up using the with-timeout macro. starting and stopping is very snappy now :) 2021-02-28T21:09:37Z jonatack joined #lisp 2021-02-28T21:13:02Z leo_song quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2021-02-28T21:13:15Z anticrisis joined #lisp 2021-02-28T21:14:09Z luni joined #lisp 2021-02-28T21:14:14Z leo_song joined #lisp 2021-02-28T21:16:08Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T21:16:29Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2021-02-28T21:22:37Z xlei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2021-02-28T21:29:16Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T21:30:24Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-28T21:44:59Z asarch joined #lisp 2021-02-28T21:48:15Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T21:50:03Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-02-28T21:50:04Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-28T21:50:20Z karlosz joined #lisp 2021-02-28T21:54:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T21:54:20Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2021-02-28T21:56:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2021-02-28T21:56:15Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T22:05:12Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-28T22:06:13Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2021-02-28T22:10:43Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2021-02-28T22:16:39Z catt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-28T22:18:26Z terpri joined #lisp 2021-02-28T22:20:23Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2021-02-28T22:21:02Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2021-02-28T22:25:03Z vegansbane6963 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-02-28T22:25:52Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2021-02-28T22:27:39Z xlei joined #lisp 2021-02-28T22:34:10Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T22:34:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-28T22:34:20Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2021-02-28T22:34:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-28T22:40:02Z vegansbane6963 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T22:43:00Z Xach: Merry distmas! 2021-02-28T22:44:45Z keja_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T22:46:03Z Carkh: what's a distmas ? 2021-02-28T22:46:06Z Carkh: oh 2021-02-28T22:46:09Z Carkh: quicklisp ! 2021-02-28T22:46:18Z Carkh: merry distmas =) 2021-02-28T22:48:48Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2021-02-28T22:49:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-28T22:50:38Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2021-02-28T22:51:42Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2021-02-28T22:52:09Z orivej joined #lisp 2021-02-28T22:52:25Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp 2021-02-28T22:54:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-28T22:54:42Z edgar-rft: distmas is the second-holy day right after indeterministmess 2021-02-28T22:56:13Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2021-02-28T22:56:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T22:57:21Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-28T23:11:08Z kamen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2021-02-28T23:12:03Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-28T23:12:54Z lowryder joined #lisp 2021-02-28T23:13:47Z mh__ quit 2021-02-28T23:23:55Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2021-02-28T23:29:27Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2021-02-28T23:30:55Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2021-02-28T23:34:19Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2021-02-28T23:35:56Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T23:37:45Z arpunk joined #lisp 2021-02-28T23:39:02Z iamFIREc1 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T23:41:14Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2021-02-28T23:42:13Z akoana left #lisp 2021-02-28T23:44:02Z NULLean` joined #lisp 2021-02-28T23:44:09Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2021-02-28T23:46:01Z kamen joined #lisp 2021-02-28T23:51:41Z zxq2 joined #lisp 2021-02-28T23:54:15Z cchristiansen joined #lisp 2021-02-28T23:56:26Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2021-02-28T23:57:36Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2021-02-28T23:57:38Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale