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2021-02-01T04:27:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-01T04:44:14Z asarch: Hey guys, I am trying to "parse" the date from (simple-date:decode-timestamp (simple-date:universal-time-to-timestamp 3609946480)) which is a value like: 2014\n5\n24\n18\n54\n40\n0
2021-02-01T04:44:43Z asarch: However, if I do (loop for valor in  (simple-date:decode-timestamp (simple-date:universal-time-to-timestamp 3609946480)) do ...) I get ; Evaluation aborted on #<TYPE-ERROR expected-type: LIST datum: 2014>.
2021-02-01T04:45:01Z no-defun-allowed: That has returned multiple values, not one.
2021-02-01T04:45:30Z asarch: If I do: (format t "The date is: ~d~%"  (simple-date:decode-timestamp (simple-date:universal-time-to-timestamp 3609946480))) I only get The date is: 2014
2021-02-01T04:45:38Z no-defun-allowed: And the order of the values is well known; you could use (multiple-value-bind (year month day hour minute second timezone) (decode-timestamp ...) body ...) to bind the values in BODY.
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2021-02-01T04:46:35Z no-defun-allowed: At least, I think the last value is the timezone, I don't remember.
2021-02-01T04:47:13Z no-defun-allowed: Can't you just use decode-universal-time instead of going through SIMPLE-DATE and presumably a Unix timestamp?
2021-02-01T04:47:16Z no-defun-allowed: clhs decode-universal-time
2021-02-01T04:47:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_un.htm
2021-02-01T04:48:01Z phadthai: and the loop error is because you useed for-in that expects lists, the for-as-across form can iterate over vectors
2021-02-01T04:48:12Z asarch: (multiple-value-bind (year month day hour minute second) (simple-date:decode-timestamp (simple-date:universal-time-to-timestamp 3609946480)) (format t "The date is: ~d/~d/~d ~d:~d:~d~%" year month day hour minute second))
2021-02-01T04:48:16Z asarch: Yeah!
2021-02-01T04:48:19Z phadthai: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/m_loop.htm
2021-02-01T04:48:55Z beach: phadthai: But this is not a vector either.
2021-02-01T04:48:55Z asarch: Thank you!
2021-02-01T04:49:07Z asarch: Yeah, that is not a vector
2021-02-01T04:49:40Z phadthai: I may have misread but considered the \n as meaning a string there
2021-02-01T04:50:21Z asarch: Yeah, sorry, sorry :-(
2021-02-01T04:50:33Z asarch: My mistake
2021-02-01T04:51:26Z no-defun-allowed: Then it had better be in double quotes too.
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2021-02-01T04:54:41Z beach: phadthai: Sorry, my bad.
2021-02-01T04:55:52Z asarch: Thank you guys!
2021-02-01T04:55:56Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-)
2021-02-01T04:56:01Z asarch: Have a nice day
2021-02-01T04:56:04Z phadthai: nothing important :)
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2021-02-01T09:37:52Z marcoxa: Hello
2021-02-01T09:38:03Z no-defun-allowed: Hello marcoxa
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2021-02-01T09:54:34Z phoe: hellooooo
2021-02-01T09:55:37Z beach: Hello phoe.
2021-02-01T09:55:58Z no-defun-allowed: Helloooooo phoe.
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2021-02-01T10:18:22Z edgar-rft: not enough ooos
2021-02-01T10:18:59Z VincentVega: Is (ql:quickload 'definer) working for you? I am getting "system not found" error, even though definer is listed on the quicklisp releases page.
2021-02-01T10:19:18Z no-defun-allowed: (implode (append '(h e l l) '#1=(o . #1#)))
2021-02-01T10:19:43Z VincentVega: *for you -> for anyone
2021-02-01T10:19:46Z phoe: VincentVega: what is your QL dist version?
2021-02-01T10:19:53Z no-defun-allowed: Have you updated the Quicklisp dist recently? I see it was added this month.
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2021-02-01T10:20:08Z phoe: try a tactical (ql:update-all-dists) before retrying
2021-02-01T10:20:18Z VincentVega: let me try that
2021-02-01T10:20:32Z no-defun-allowed: Changes from quicklisp 2020-12-20 to quicklisp 2021-01-24: New projects: .... definer-20210124-git ....
2021-02-01T10:21:19Z VincentVega: gotcha, the project lives since 2004, so didn't expect that : ) thanks phoe, no-defun-allowed
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2021-02-01T10:29:51Z edgar-rft: definer may be finer but defun is more fun
2021-02-01T10:33:29Z VincentVega: edgar-rft: in definer you could do (def fun), defun is more like un
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2021-02-01T10:46:33Z marcoxa: @VincentVinga not sure why "definer" is not working on quicklisp.
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2021-02-01T10:47:26Z marcoxa: Ok.  I see it was a snag with the quicklisp distro.
2021-02-01T10:48:03Z marcoxa: BTW.  I am looking for helpers on my projects... (Plus the bits and pieces I am working on in my spare time)
2021-02-01T10:48:43Z VincentVega: marcoxa: You are the dev? Cool, so I am looking through it, I gather there isn't a def method (setf smth) yet?
2021-02-01T10:49:52Z beach: marcoxa: Are you planning to pay those helpers, or are you looking for volunteers?
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2021-02-01T11:04:30Z engblom: Please recommend me a minimal web framework that you can get and keep updated through quicklisp
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2021-02-01T11:50:02Z marcoxa: Hi again
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2021-02-01T11:54:06Z VincentVega: marcoxa: Hi : )
2021-02-01T11:57:18Z VincentVega: marcoxa: so, about the defmethod (setf slot-name), did you have any reservations about not including it yet?
2021-02-01T12:02:49Z marcoxa: Not sure.  It is probably just a slip.  Care to make a proposal?  Just make a branch in the repository and add it.
2021-02-01T12:03:49Z marcoxa: I believe I was just a bit wary of using CONSes for names just in case you wanted to add extra "declaration" thingies.
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2021-02-01T12:08:32Z VincentVega: marcoxa: I think if the library doesn't specialize on list/cons explicitly, then the user can specialize on it in their code without overriding anything to add anything extra.
2021-02-01T12:11:02Z VincentVega: marcoxa: Ok! I will just familiarize myself a bit more with the library, but I will branch it and make the amends to it that I think would be good. I guess I can contact you on right there on gitlab in case of any questions?
2021-02-01T12:19:57Z marcoxa: Issues on the repository are better.  I drop by here not that often.
2021-02-01T12:20:57Z VincentVega: marcoxa: Sure.
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2021-02-01T13:26:30Z jackdaniel: grab it while its fresh :) https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/posts/ECL-2121-release.html (new ecl release)
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2021-02-01T13:27:19Z lisp-newbee-1357: hi, can anyone recommend between radiance and caveman2?
2021-02-01T13:27:31Z lisp-newbee-1357: Can I use them for a regular angular app in the front end? What is lacking compared to Ruby on Rails in terms of what I need to build an app? I know community and plugins are mentioned, but is there anything besides that which would break a project??
2021-02-01T13:28:05Z lisp-newbee-1357: thanks so much for the help!
2021-02-01T13:28:20Z lisp-newbee-1357: I really want to learn lisp and use it for a project
2021-02-01T13:28:39Z lisp-newbee-1357: So I'm hopping by doing something with it I will learn and become productive
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2021-02-01T13:33:45Z devon: Welcome to #lisp.  Never heard of either but I'll take a peek.
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2021-02-01T13:38:02Z lisp-newbee-1357: Thanks :D
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2021-02-01T14:11:58Z phoe: I heard good things about radiance
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2021-02-01T15:31:25Z dbotton: I recall someone asked here or on discord about change-class - I am using it in my latest tutorial on building new clog components - https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/20-tutorial.lisp
2021-02-01T15:32:10Z dbotton: It seems a nice fit - if any one has advice against would love to hear it
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2021-02-01T15:44:58Z Bike: Why don't you just create the clog-toggler directly?
2021-02-01T15:45:20Z Bike: I mean, since clog-toggler is an unordered list, whatever initialization on unordered lists still applies
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2021-02-01T15:47:59Z dbotton: Because that would mean redoing the work of the previous work, ie creating the HTML etc
2021-02-01T15:48:47Z dbotton: Previous work, meaning the parent object
2021-02-01T15:48:54Z beach: We use CHANGE-CLASS a lot in Cleavir.
2021-02-01T15:48:59Z beach: ... and SICL.
2021-02-01T15:49:20Z dbotton: I really like the idea, far better then a dangerous cast
2021-02-01T15:49:41Z beach: "cast"?
2021-02-01T15:49:50Z Bike: I mean, if initialization of an unordered-list was through methods on initialize-instance and stuff, they would apply just as well for make-instance on a subclass of an unordered list.
2021-02-01T15:49:52Z beach: There are no casts in Common Lisp as far as I know.
2021-02-01T15:50:03Z dbotton: In other languages upcasting/downcasting
2021-02-01T15:50:05Z Bike: Though it looks like here you're doing some other stuff I'm not familiar enough with the library to understand
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2021-02-01T15:52:16Z beach: dbotton: Most other languages are way more broken than Common Lisp.
2021-02-01T15:52:43Z dbotton: I again am really enjoying it
2021-02-01T15:52:58Z beach: Great!
2021-02-01T15:53:15Z dbotton: Is still hard to get away from typing more
2021-02-01T15:53:19Z _death: dbotton: cool project.. I suggest to create a different package for each tutorial, say clog.tutorial-01 etc. and an asd file that loads them all
2021-02-01T15:54:02Z dbotton: I'll look in to it _death
2021-02-01T15:54:44Z dbotton: My idea was you would run one at a time and look at source (clog:run-tutorial 1) then 2 etc
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2021-02-01T15:55:51Z dbotton: Tutorial 13 does that, shows you how to create your own project using clog with asd etc
2021-02-01T15:56:01Z _death: dbotton: each tutorial could export a run symbol
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2021-02-01T15:56:46Z dbotton: Good point
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2021-02-01T15:58:11Z _death: dbotton: with a separate asd file, clog itself wouldn't depend on its tutorials.. you could still define a clog-user package for quick experimentation
2021-02-01T15:58:33Z beach: dbotton: Top-level comments should have three (or sometimes four) semicolons.
2021-02-01T15:59:35Z dbotton: Thanks!
2021-02-01T15:59:51Z beach: clhs 2.4.4.2.3
2021-02-01T15:59:51Z specbot: Use of Triple Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddbc.htm
2021-02-01T16:00:07Z beach: clhs 2.4.4.2.2
2021-02-01T16:00:07Z specbot: Use of Double Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddbb.htm
2021-02-01T16:00:22Z dbotton: _death I think also worth giving each tutorial its own url path so all can be accessed same time
2021-02-01T16:00:49Z dbotton: You can currently run each tutorial then after opens browser go to next
2021-02-01T16:01:01Z beach: dbotton: It is very unusual to have blank lines in the middle of a top-level form.
2021-02-01T16:01:03Z _death: dbotton: yeah, that way it provides more clue to the user on how to do that
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2021-02-01T16:01:39Z _death: dbotton: there could be a "master" tutorial with links to the rest, like clim's demodemo ;)
2021-02-01T16:01:48Z dbotton: Beach, can you clarify that for me
2021-02-01T16:01:49Z _death: *mcclim
2021-02-01T16:02:44Z beach: dbotton: You should not have blank lines before (load-css..) in init-toggler.
2021-02-01T16:03:27Z beach: dbotton: And not before ;; Using change-class nor beore new-obj in create-toggler .
2021-02-01T16:03:55Z beach: dbotton: And not before (clog-toggler:activate-toggler).
2021-02-01T16:04:09Z beach: dbotton: And not before (nitialize #'on-new-window).
2021-02-01T16:04:29Z beach: Those blank lines are all inside top-level forms.
2021-02-01T16:04:55Z dbotton: What the one between init-toggler and the let
2021-02-01T16:05:04Z beach: Same.
2021-02-01T16:05:42Z beach: It is highly unusual to have blank lines inside a top-level form.  And the signal you send to the person reading your code is not clear.
2021-02-01T16:06:13Z dbotton: Thanks, very appreciated
2021-02-01T16:06:19Z dbotton: I'll look over codebase
2021-02-01T16:06:21Z beach: Pleasure.
2021-02-01T16:06:48Z dbotton: That is a big part, I am trying to get the styles and idioms where can of the language
2021-02-01T16:07:04Z beach: Yes, that's good.
2021-02-01T16:07:25Z _death: if we're into small style suggestions... defclass forms usually place the slots list on its own line, even if it's empty
2021-02-01T16:09:19Z engblom: Please recommend me a minimal web framework that you can get and keep updated through quicklisp.
2021-02-01T16:09:27Z dbotton: I always am in the the small stuff
2021-02-01T16:09:32Z engblom: Something with good documentation
2021-02-01T16:09:36Z dbotton: into
2021-02-01T16:10:29Z beach: engblom: Are you saying you are a volunteer for maintaining such a thing?  Or do you just want to use it?
2021-02-01T16:11:27Z engblom: beach: I would want to use a such one.
2021-02-01T16:11:45Z beach: engblom: Then why do you want it to be minimal?
2021-02-01T16:12:47Z engblom: beach: I have been asked to make a simple web gui for configuring fiber connections to the customers of my work place (a small ISP). All it needs is to keep a few settings and to take information from forms and then use that information for running cmd-line instructions.
2021-02-01T16:13:22Z engblom: beach: Because it is a small project, I was thinking that it is perfect for me to learn a bit of lisp at the same time.
2021-02-01T16:13:41Z beach: I see.
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2021-02-01T16:14:30Z engblom: beach: A huge framework would be a bit of an overkill in this case, and it would take away from the real goal: to learn a bit of lisp
2021-02-01T16:14:47Z beach: I think I understand.
2021-02-01T16:16:02Z _death: engblom: personally I don't use any framework.. you can start with just hunchentoot, an html generation library (I like yaclml), and sqlite
2021-02-01T16:16:26Z dbotton: engblom you may want to try my clog project (it is a perfect fit for it) but you should use the GitHub version until next update of quicklisp next month  https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog.git
2021-02-01T16:17:08Z dbotton: Sorry - git clone https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog.git  in to you common-lisp dir
2021-02-01T16:18:04Z dbotton: It has a lot of doc and tutorials as well
2021-02-01T16:18:27Z _death: dbotton: I like clog, but it does require javascript and websockets (I have js disabled)
2021-02-01T16:18:30Z engblom: _death, dbotton Thanks!
2021-02-01T16:19:24Z dbotton: _death that makes for a very static world :)
2021-02-01T16:19:59Z _death: dbotton: yes, that's how I like my browsing :) I use other programs when I want interactivity
2021-02-01T16:20:48Z dbotton: _death CLOG also is designed for using as standalone software
2021-02-01T16:21:26Z dbotton: In fact big part of design, for now you can very easily use ceramic and clog together for native desktop apps
2021-02-01T16:21:32Z _death: dbotton: yep.. it's cool
2021-02-01T16:21:44Z dbotton: I have to write up a tutorial on that soon
2021-02-01T16:26:35Z dbotton: I updated https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/20-tutorial.lisp
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2021-02-01T16:27:32Z dbotton: Thank you all, I will update the codebase after and then try and see about the tutorials running in parallel on different paths
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2021-02-01T16:43:35Z fouric: has anyone bootstrapped ccl on linux-arm before without an existing ccl image (e.g. using sbcl)? i'm trying to bring it up on my raspberry pi, and can build the kernel, but there's no included heap image and the manual appears to assume that you already have a working ccl to get a new one
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2021-02-01T16:50:06Z beach: fouric: Is that even possible to do?  I remember rme telling me that it would require some work to make it possible.  Though, perhaps someone did the work?
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2021-02-01T16:51:51Z fouric: i'm not sure whether that particular approach is feasible, but i know that at least *several* people have gotten ccl working on the pi *somehow*
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2021-02-01T16:52:06Z beach: OK.
2021-02-01T16:52:25Z fouric: i'm not sure where lispm hangs out but they wrote a post on it using an older ccl: http://lispm.de/ccl
2021-02-01T16:52:46Z fouric: ...and it's not clear to me if they already had the image, or what
2021-02-01T16:53:27Z fouric: ...but from what you're telling me, building without an existing heap sounds really tricky, so i should look at getting one instead of building from scratch
2021-02-01T16:54:43Z beach: This information is from a few years ago, so it could be stale.
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2021-02-01T19:13:57Z dbotton: Is there a setting I can use for ECL to give warnings for unused symbols like on scbl?
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2021-02-01T19:16:57Z Josh_2: silly question but whats the goto solution that people use to stop format strings being line wrapped?
2021-02-01T19:17:07Z Josh_2: It's extremely ugly when it happens
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2021-02-01T19:18:10Z Xach: Josh_2: you can put them across multiple lines with ~<newline>
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2021-02-01T19:19:35Z Josh_2: Right but I mean in the source code
2021-02-01T19:19:40Z Xach: Josh_2: i also mean that.
2021-02-01T19:20:01Z kpoeck: fouric Did you try https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/releases/download/v1.12/linuxarm.tar.gz
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2021-02-01T19:20:30Z Josh_2: Xach: Okay epic :) thanks
2021-02-01T19:21:10Z Josh_2: ah rip now emacs isn't moving the string inline :(
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2021-02-01T19:21:29Z Xach: It does, in my experience, require some manual positioning
2021-02-01T19:21:37Z Xach: not ideal
2021-02-01T19:21:54Z Josh_2: Bit of a pain but It's better than the alternative
2021-02-01T19:21:58Z Josh_2: thanks
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2021-02-01T19:24:30Z Xach: you could become a hero by helping emacs to understand it
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2021-02-01T19:27:21Z Josh_2: I could but I doubt it
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2021-02-01T19:45:25Z puchacz: if you put newlines in a string in source code, your next line is not indented.
2021-02-01T19:45:54Z puchacz: I prefer to write a few strings as arguments to something like (strcat ...)
2021-02-01T19:46:47Z phoe: Josh_2: you can use format with some variant of tilde #\Newline
2021-02-01T19:46:52Z aeth: Unless you're using FORMAT NIL or the even more niche feature where you feed FORMAT a mutable string... you can just use multiple FORMATs
2021-02-01T19:47:16Z aeth: A long FORMAT is just a code smell that it should probably be 10 lines instead of a FORMAT "one liner"
2021-02-01T19:47:26Z aeth: That's what streams are for, after all. Breaking things up.
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2021-02-01T20:00:32Z Xach: puchacz: you can indent it if you like.
2021-02-01T20:00:40Z Xach: puchacz: but emacs is too dumb to do it automatically.
2021-02-01T20:01:36Z puchacz: Xach - then I will have extra spaces in the string itself
2021-02-01T20:02:33Z Xach: puchacz: no you will not.
2021-02-01T20:02:42Z phoe: puchacz: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2268#2268
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2021-02-01T20:03:07Z puchacz: I did not know about ~@
2021-02-01T20:03:19Z phoe: it is actually tilde newline with the @ modifier
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2021-02-01T20:03:53Z puchacz: thanks - a useful thing
2021-02-01T20:04:03Z puchacz: and a solution for long strings in general?
2021-02-01T20:04:08Z Xach: no
2021-02-01T20:04:15Z puchacz: ok
2021-02-01T20:04:50Z Xach: I do not use ~@<newline> very much. I usually just want to break a non-breaking control string across multiple lines.
2021-02-01T20:05:02Z Xach: In fact I don't think I have ever used it
2021-02-01T20:05:25Z Xach: Also, I learned about *print-array* in the last week. i have not used it yet.
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2021-02-01T21:02:50Z marcoxa: exit
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2021-02-01T21:02:58Z tychoish: heh
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2021-02-01T21:17:08Z phoe: https://i.imgur.com/zc47w7y.jpg
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2021-02-01T21:18:10Z no-defun-allowed: Not sure if I get it.
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2021-02-01T21:20:11Z puchacz: mechanical keyboards being the big thing?
2021-02-01T21:21:06Z shinohai: OMG I'm trapped ... no escape!
2021-02-01T21:21:23Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: there is no escape
2021-02-01T21:21:30Z no-defun-allowed: fouric, beach: lispm's writeup on ARM Clozure is still up to date, but there is still some weird bug with threads.
2021-02-01T21:21:38Z no-defun-allowed: Oh dear.
2021-02-01T21:24:34Z puchacz: ECL would work on arm. there is fully functional maxima on ecl application for android.
2021-02-01T21:25:54Z jmercouris: any way to make abstract classes?
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2021-02-01T21:25:56Z jmercouris: so that the user can't use them directly, but must inherit from them?
2021-02-01T21:26:07Z phoe: jmercouris: protest/base:define-protocol-class
2021-02-01T21:26:07Z puchacz: no
2021-02-01T21:26:21Z puchacz: oops, I must be wrong then
2021-02-01T21:26:28Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/protest/blob/master/src/base/base.lisp
2021-02-01T21:26:30Z jmercouris: phoe: is protest some sort of system?
2021-02-01T21:26:33Z jmercouris: oh I see
2021-02-01T21:26:34Z phoe: t
2021-02-01T21:26:49Z phoe: I remember that I linked you to it some time ago
2021-02-01T21:26:57Z jmercouris: I see
2021-02-01T21:27:02Z jmercouris: thank you phoe
2021-02-01T21:27:05Z jmercouris: I will link to it as well
2021-02-01T21:27:22Z jmercouris: bottom of here: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt/pull/1110
2021-02-01T21:27:39Z phoe: sure
2021-02-01T21:27:41Z Bike: is removal-protocol-object to undefine a protocol class
2021-02-01T21:28:04Z phoe: Bike: not really, it's to remove the "protocolness" off an object
2021-02-01T21:28:27Z Bike: make a protocol class into a regular class?
2021-02-01T21:28:30Z phoe: yes
2021-02-01T21:28:39Z Bike: ic. it's the "object" tripping me up
2021-02-01T21:28:43Z phoe: so e.g. if you redefine that class using defclass rather than define-protocol-class, the "protocolness" flag is removed
2021-02-01T21:29:02Z jmercouris: oh I see, very clever
2021-02-01T21:29:04Z phoe: so after DEFINE-PROTOCOL-CLASS and then DEFCLASS you can instantiate the class normally.
2021-02-01T21:29:35Z jmercouris: I like this, this is good
2021-02-01T21:29:42Z jmercouris: maybe it can be integerated into hu.dwim.class star
2021-02-01T21:30:18Z Bike: but you can still change-class to the protocol class! mwa ha HA!
2021-02-01T21:30:25Z phoe: :O
2021-02-01T21:30:29Z phoe: oh my
2021-02-01T21:30:38Z jmercouris: well, of course you can even override the macro if you so desire
2021-02-01T21:30:50Z jmercouris: I could change package, and redefine the macro
2021-02-01T21:30:55Z jmercouris: that is however not the spirit of the package...
2021-02-01T21:33:14Z Bike: i guess you could put a before/after method on update-instance-for-different-class to be really particular about it
2021-02-01T21:33:20Z phoe: yes
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2021-02-01T23:49:46Z charles`: What are opinions on a hyperspec that would allow comments?
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2021-02-01T23:54:10Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps too illegal to modify, to my knowledge.
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2021-02-01T23:58:54Z Bike: we already keep comments elsewhere, e.g. https://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications
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2021-02-02T03:06:41Z seok: Morning' !
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2021-02-02T04:02:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-02T04:09:42Z seok: hello beach ! !
2021-02-02T04:10:13Z seok: Is bagger's pushing pixels with lisp good resource to learn programming 3d graphics engine from scratch ?
2021-02-02T04:10:25Z seok: Can I get some book recommendations please : D
2021-02-02T04:12:50Z Nilby: Good morning, and happy 47th international RASSOC day.
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2021-02-02T04:50:09Z dbotton: is there a way to specify a parameter of a lambda that will not be used so that you don't have to use a declare to indicate to the compiler to ignore
2021-02-02T04:50:48Z dbotton: like a (lambda (_)(something)) and compiler knows that _ is just a filler
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2021-02-02T04:52:11Z beach: No, an IGNORE declaration is the way to do it.
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2021-02-02T04:53:11Z no-defun-allowed: There may be a macro in some utility library that understands _ or some other "don't care" name, but not in Common Lisp.
2021-02-02T04:53:37Z no-defun-allowed  thinks ~ looks better than  admittedly; there are enough-of-these-hyphens that  looks weird.
2021-02-02T04:54:12Z no-defun-allowed: My underscores disappeared. But you get the idea.
2021-02-02T04:54:37Z Nilby: (defmacro _ (&rest exprs) `(lambda (_) (declare (ignorable _)) ,@exprs))
2021-02-02T04:54:38Z beach: I think the IGNORE declaration looks just fine.
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2021-02-02T04:55:54Z dbotton: when you have many gets ugly
2021-02-02T04:56:47Z beach: Why would you have many IGNORE declarations?
2021-02-02T04:57:11Z dbotton: when abusing let in my case
2021-02-02T04:57:25Z beach: That smells of bad interface design.
2021-02-02T04:58:12Z dbotton: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/17-tutorial.lisp
2021-02-02T04:58:53Z dbotton: there may be a better way I am sure, haven't thought if it yet
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2021-02-02T04:59:29Z dbotton: any ideas?
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2021-02-02T05:01:23Z dbotton: worse part is on scbl a (declare (ignore tmp)) doesn't work except for the first one
2021-02-02T05:01:49Z dbotton: (at least the version on this pc using for now)
2021-02-02T05:02:42Z beach: In a case like this, I would probably use a LET with only the variables I meant to use, and then use SETF in the body, and just not set anything when the value is to be ignored.
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2021-02-02T05:04:07Z beach: Even with some special syntax, it is ugly as it is, because you have forms in a position where the value is used, even though the value is NOT used.
2021-02-02T05:04:23Z pillton: I assume that CREATE-BF, CREATE-SECTION, etc.. mutate the first argument?
2021-02-02T05:04:38Z dbotton: no
2021-02-02T05:04:46Z beach: Probably just use it.
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2021-02-02T05:05:49Z beach: dbotton: So do (let (header data-area fcontainer....) (setf header (create-section...)) ...)
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2021-02-02T05:07:09Z dbotton: for sure can do that
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2021-02-02T05:07:13Z beach: I haven't checked the details, but you could probably separate it into 3 LET forms like that.
2021-02-02T05:07:23Z beach: Then you won't need form2 and form3.
2021-02-02T05:07:44Z dbotton: in this case of course, but this is just a tutorial for the api
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2021-02-02T05:08:28Z beach: dbotton: The idiom (let (var1 var2 ... varn) ...) means you are creating lexical variables that you intend to assign to before you use.
2021-02-02T05:10:03Z dbotton: would be nice to have a way to do in one swoop. but i understand
2021-02-02T05:10:50Z dbotton: the second reason for lots of ignores are the "handlers" (lambda (obj)()) is very common you won't use obj
2021-02-02T05:11:17Z dbotton: but that is one ignore
2021-02-02T05:11:27Z dbotton: not end of world
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2021-02-02T05:39:30Z Nilby: dbotton: You probably won't like this suggestion, but I would do it differently. Vaugely like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2270#2270
2021-02-02T05:39:51Z dbotton: looking
2021-02-02T05:41:39Z dbotton: I wanted it to feel more lispy using setf properties
2021-02-02T05:43:01Z dbotton: maybe a few things can think about gleaning from your idea
2021-02-02T05:44:21Z Nilby: SGML was only invented, instead of just using Lisp, becasue they thought non-programmers couldn't use Emacs and would get confused/scared by "))))))))" at the end of documents.
2021-02-02T05:46:12Z dbotton: I hear ya
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2021-02-02T05:53:30Z beach: Nilby: Like I often say, people go to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp.
2021-02-02T05:55:51Z v3ga: hmm, speaking of learning common lisp. can anyone recommend any good projects to read over that showcase good practices? I'm mostly interested in web dev so at the moment this seems nice buyt i'm just looking for variety. https://github.com/cicakhq/potato
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2021-02-02T06:02:49Z Nilby: beach: Now that normal humans don't code even write html anymore, and everything is crammed full of javascript, I think eventually the world will come around to web in lisp because of uniformity of syntax. But maybe not before going through a round of web as assmebly language.
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2021-02-02T06:10:51Z Nilby: v3ga: At risk of offending everyone else who writes excellent software, my opinion is https://github.com/edicl and https://github.com/Shinmera showcase good practices.
2021-02-02T06:11:23Z no-defun-allowed: I can count the people who would disagree with that statement on one finger.
2021-02-02T06:12:15Z Nilby: no-defun-allowed: It's just the people I didn't mention, inclusing myself.
2021-02-02T06:12:29Z no-defun-allowed: And someone decided that we shouldn't compute on computers, rather we should simulate ink on tree shavings. This set networking back 30 years or so.
2021-02-02T06:13:31Z v3ga: Nilby: lol, thanks. I'll pull them and take a look
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2021-02-02T06:18:17Z Nilby: "ink on tree shavings" will be the name of my next web framework.
2021-02-02T06:19:18Z no-defun-allowed: For once, I am considering trademarking that.
2021-02-02T06:20:07Z no-defun-allowed: It is meant to be insulting - whoever wrote the book "The web was done by amateurs" didn't get it either.
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2021-02-02T07:46:21Z beach: Of course "amateur" means a person performing some activity out of love for it, and "professional" means a person to performs an activity for money.  My preference is clear.
2021-02-02T07:48:47Z no-defun-allowed: That is one interpretation, yes. Kay's interpretation was that "amateurs" don't do their homework (he then says they failed at OS design). My interpretation is that an industry has to be invented from hiring professionals to clean it up anyway.
2021-02-02T07:52:40Z no-defun-allowed: The previous utterances might disambiguate that: "The Internet was done so well that most people think of it as a natural resource like the Pacific Ocean, rather than something that was man-made. When was the last time a technology with a scale like that was so error-free? The Web, in comparison, is a joke. The Web was done by amateurs."
2021-02-02T07:52:50Z splittist: I still can't believe the industry has to give tests when hiring software 'engineers'.
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2021-02-02T07:55:30Z beach: I think we need to find two different words for what is usually meant, like for instance "incompetent" and "competent".  The correlation between those two and "amateur" vs "professional" is not clear at all.
2021-02-02T07:55:45Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
2021-02-02T07:56:57Z beach: splittist: I can believe it, and I know at least one reason why.  I mean, I have a very good idea of the competence of our graduates.
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2021-02-02T09:57:39Z polezaivsani: Anybody know here of anything akin to bitlbee in lisp land?  Am a bit reluctant to fix C bugs now and was wondering if doing that in lisp would be good idea...
2021-02-02T09:58:54Z no-defun-allowed: What's bitlbee?
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2021-02-02T09:59:23Z beach: Oh, the things #lisp participants are supposed to know.
2021-02-02T09:59:28Z no-defun-allowed: The IRC<-other protocol gateway that lives at bitlbee.org?
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2021-02-02T10:00:54Z polezaivsani: yeah, sort of bridge from <lots of im/chat protocols> to irc
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2021-02-02T10:02:04Z polezaivsani: ... and back, as in a decent enough bridge :)
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2021-02-02T10:06:18Z engblom used bitlbee for many years until all his friends moved over to facebook and he did not want to have anything to do with facebook. 
2021-02-02T10:06:30Z engblom: I wonder what could be done so people would come back to IRC.
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2021-02-02T10:11:36Z polezaivsani: engblom: the idea of brushing up email and irc gives me a good humoured chuckle :)
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2021-02-02T10:12:50Z polezaivsani: imho, living my dream feels like an easier and more enjoyable thing
2021-02-02T10:12:51Z splittist: shinmera seemed to be doing stuff with bitlbee
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2021-02-02T11:54:52Z VincentVega: Who do I contact to let me fork projects on gitlab.common-lisp.net? And did anyone have any success disabling endless prompts for 2f authentication?
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2021-02-02T11:59:06Z phoe: VincentVega: #common-lisp.net - look for ehuelsmann there
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2021-02-02T12:00:32Z VincentVega: phoe: thanks, I will try again there then...
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2021-02-02T14:09:20Z xvzf: I'm to look at LISP concurrency implementations. For a starter, the simpler the better. Can you recommend me a research paper on that? I am interested in uniprocessor concurrency.
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2021-02-02T14:10:17Z beach: What is meant by "uniprocessor concurrency"?
2021-02-02T14:11:18Z xvzf: In contrast to multiprocessor concurrency, where there are multiple processor cores that handle separate threads. So only one processor core and threads are running time-shared on that.
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2021-02-02T14:11:59Z beach: I am puzzled...
2021-02-02T14:12:11Z beach: What aspect of such a thing are you interested in?
2021-02-02T14:12:47Z xvzf: What LISP primitives do you need to implement threads and message passing between them?
2021-02-02T14:13:07Z beach: OK, let's back up a bit.
2021-02-02T14:13:20Z mfiano: I think you were looking for ##lisp
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2021-02-02T14:13:37Z beach: We haven't written the name of the language in all capitals for decades.
2021-02-02T14:14:01Z xvzf: Sorry about that.
2021-02-02T14:14:03Z beach: xvzf: Also, there is no such thing as message passing between threads.
2021-02-02T14:14:14Z mfiano: This channel is about Common Lisp. Do you mean "lisps" or "Common Lisp"?
2021-02-02T14:14:31Z beach: xvzf: You would pass objects between threads by storing them in a shared variable.
2021-02-02T14:14:41Z beach: ... or a shared slot of a shared object.
2021-02-02T14:15:19Z xvzf: In other types of functional programming it is possible to pass values on channels: Erlang, Concurrent ML.
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2021-02-02T14:16:29Z beach: xvzf: Common Lisp threads run in a shared address space, and values in Common Lisp are (semantically speaking) references to heap-allocated objects.  You would never copy an object when you pass it to some other thread.
2021-02-02T14:16:32Z mfiano: You still didn't answer if you are looking for an answer in terms of lisp or Common Lisp
2021-02-02T14:17:00Z xvzf: lisp is enough for me. The simpler the better.
2021-02-02T14:17:38Z beach: xvzf: And Common Lisp (nor Lisp in general) is not a functional programming language in that sense.  Identity matters, so objects are never implicitly copied.
2021-02-02T14:18:12Z mfiano: Lisp is not a well defined term. You'd have to be specific as to which dialect, and that is off-topic here. Common Lisp does not have any notion of green threads, fibers, or any of that in the standard.
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2021-02-02T14:21:35Z xvzf: Thanks for mentioning green threads and fibers, I did not know these terms
2021-02-02T14:22:11Z mfiano: I think you may find some knowledge down that path. Another useful term would be "continuations"
2021-02-02T14:23:34Z xvzf: I learned that while reading about SML/NJ's implementation of Concurrent ML.
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2021-02-02T14:32:38Z marcoxa: Hi
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2021-02-02T14:33:23Z phoe: hey
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2021-02-02T14:41:20Z digikar: Hi! I recently noted that trivial-types (https://github.com/m2ym/trivial-types) has been archived
2021-02-02T14:41:21Z digikar: While I maintained a fork for personal needs in recent months, I don't find myself experienced-enough and feel something important like trivial-types should be maintained by the community or at least someone more experienced, and wondered if sharplispers (or are there other groups?) could take over the maintenance...
2021-02-02T14:42:30Z phoe: a brief quicklisp-stats query tells me that trivial-types is the 24th most downloaded system
2021-02-02T14:42:58Z phoe: might be worth to fork it into sharplispers
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2021-02-02T14:57:16Z polezaivsani: I get some ill effects when using setq'ed symbols in the mode-line-format.  If i defvar them, it works as expected.  I'm reading the manual, but so far can't seem to find any major reason that could explain the difference.  Hints welcome :)
2021-02-02T14:58:12Z phoe: polezaivsani: mode-line-format? is that emacs, or something else?
2021-02-02T14:58:57Z polezaivsani: phoe: yep, it's a variable describing how your mode line should get constructed
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2021-02-02T15:00:36Z phoe: you might want to try #emacs then, this place is a Common Lisp lair
2021-02-02T15:00:53Z polezaivsani: ah, sorry, wrong buffer :)
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2021-02-02T15:02:55Z nij: Can I snapshot the state of my repl, and go back to it (exactly it)?
2021-02-02T15:04:20Z phoe: you could do something like forking the process and calling save-lisp-and-die
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2021-02-02T15:10:23Z nij: phoe: I'm aware of that. But why don't people do it more frequently?
2021-02-02T15:10:39Z nij: Won't it be useful? Or it just takes too much space to achieve?
2021-02-02T15:11:30Z phoe: nij: usually people don't do it often because of reproducibility
2021-02-02T15:12:01Z phoe: usually you can write down some commands that, when launched in a clean REPL, will get it to the same state as it is in right now
2021-02-02T15:12:12Z phoe: e.g. when loading systems, and such
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2021-02-02T15:13:57Z nij: i see
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2021-02-02T15:14:58Z Nilby: nij: I think since most use Emacs, in a separate address space, to be useful you would have to snapshot Emacs too and have it synchronized with CL, which I've never heard of anyone doing.
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2021-02-02T15:15:50Z Nilby: When you have you whole development system inside the CL address space then it becomes more feasible.
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2021-02-02T15:17:48Z nij: right
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2021-02-02T15:18:18Z Nilby: For example Lispworks is typically used with all the development tools in the smae address space, so it can be saved and restored.
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2021-02-02T17:41:54Z luis: Do hash-tables ever shrink?
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2021-02-02T17:49:21Z jackdaniel: luis: what do you mean?
2021-02-02T17:49:46Z jackdaniel: remhash removes the element from the hash table, but you already know that ,p
2021-02-02T17:50:16Z luis: jackdaniel: CL's hash-table size grows as elements are added, according to the rehash threshold, but they don't shrink as elements are removed do they?
2021-02-02T17:52:12Z jackdaniel: spec is silent about shrinking the hash table, I don't think that it would be non-conforming if hash tables had shrank
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2021-02-02T17:54:05Z luis: Agreed. In practice, though, they don't shrink do they? They don't seem to for either SBCL or ACL.
2021-02-02T17:56:06Z jackdaniel: I would be surprised if any implementation did that
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2021-02-02T19:14:50Z flip214: is there some dynamic HANDLER-BIND or HANDLER-CASE equivalent? "Dynamic" as "condition selected during runtime", ie. PROGV instead of LET.
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2021-02-02T19:18:00Z flip214: hmm, well, there can just be a general handler that looks at a list to match more fine-granular.
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2021-02-02T19:30:53Z Bike: handler-case and -bind both accept general type specifiers, so you could use a satisfies type if you want
2021-02-02T19:31:03Z Bike: and then have it depend on a dynamic variable or whatever
2021-02-02T19:31:20Z flip214: well, T or CONDITION should be general enough, I guess
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2021-02-02T21:29:59Z nij: Is there a way to inject a command into a running swank server from terminal by something like `emacsclient -e "(slime-inject-swank-server :port 1234 :code "(+ 1 1)")"`?
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2021-02-02T21:35:05Z Bike: would you want that to print 2?
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2021-02-02T21:40:19Z nij: Bike: no. Let's forget about that first.
2021-02-02T21:41:23Z nij: (I'm still struggling with (under a window manager) bind keys to send commands to REPL..
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2021-02-02T21:47:55Z Bike: i thought stumpwm has a shell thing to poke at a lisp from the terminal, but i can't find it now
2021-02-02T21:51:18Z nij: IIRC it's true. But I'm happy with my wm. I might need to take a leap to use it.
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2021-02-02T21:51:40Z Bike: well i just meant looking at what the shell thing does
2021-02-02T21:51:41Z nij: I tried exwm for the past two days, and it didn't work as stable as xmonad. So I stepped back.
2021-02-02T21:51:56Z Bike: rather than changing your entire wm, which would be kind of a weird thing for me to suggest
2021-02-02T21:52:23Z nij: Oh. Maybe I misunderstood.
2021-02-02T21:52:42Z nij: Stumpwm is based on CL, so it's not hard to imagine that it can talk to a swank server quite natively.
2021-02-02T21:52:53Z Bike: i meant like, a terminal terminal
2021-02-02T21:53:12Z nij: Dang! That I didn't know! Will look into it, right now.
2021-02-02T21:53:30Z Bike: well i don't see it on the github unfortunately. hopefully i didn't imagine it
2021-02-02T21:53:45Z _death: you can write that emacs function.. slime-connect followed by slime-eval
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2021-02-02T21:54:04Z nij: Bike, it's ok to have had nice dreams like that. So great that we cannot even tell if it is true or not.
2021-02-02T21:54:10Z Bike: https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm-contrib/blob/master/util/stumpish/stumpish maybe this was it
2021-02-02T21:54:11Z nij: JK.. sorry if it's a bad one.
2021-02-02T21:54:31Z nij: _death: That sounds terrific too!
2021-02-02T21:54:47Z Bike: oh, but it goes through xprop instead of swank or something
2021-02-02T21:54:48Z Bike: too bad
2021-02-02T21:56:54Z nij: Bike: m not familiar with xprop. What does it do here?
2021-02-02T21:57:04Z nij: The command isn't sent to swank at the end?
2021-02-02T21:57:23Z Bike: it's part of the x windows system. the script communicates with stumpwm that way instead of using swank at all.
2021-02-02T21:57:37Z nij: i see
2021-02-02T21:57:51Z Bike: so that doesn't work for you since you probably don't want to require that your lisp is also your wm
2021-02-02T21:59:46Z nij: I will try _death's suggestion then.
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2021-02-02T22:21:38Z nij: _death: it sounds promising. Do you know more about what happended when sly-connect is called?
2021-02-02T22:21:53Z nij: While there are multiple servers, behavior seems weird.
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2021-02-02T22:24:51Z _death: I don't use sly.. but you can read the code
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2021-02-02T22:27:15Z _death: maybe an easy workaround would be to run emacs and not emacsclient
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2021-02-03T01:15:48Z nij: Sure. I finally found out.. but only for sly. However, sly is a fork of swank, so I don't expect them to differ too much at lower levels.
2021-02-03T01:16:22Z nij: With multiple connected repls, we can read+select+check respectively by
2021-02-03T01:16:41Z nij: sly-net-processes, (sly-select-connection (nth 0 sly-net-processes)), (sly-current-connection)
2021-02-03T01:17:11Z nij: These are not exported elisp functions, but we can evaluated them manually.
2021-02-03T01:17:28Z nij: By using these, I can confidently switch to the process I want.
2021-02-03T01:18:09Z nij: And then the command that sends string (to be interpreted as commands) to the connected process is (sly-interactive-eval "(+ 1 1)"), for example.
2021-02-03T01:18:49Z nij: Phew~ finally I can control it directly from xmonad ~_~
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2021-02-03T03:56:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-03T09:00:08Z nij: Hello! I'm reading about Hygienic macros (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygienic_macro).
2021-02-03T09:01:10Z nij: It says that common lisp uses package to resolve the problem. Can I see what's the name of the package? What if the package conflicts with existing package?
2021-02-03T09:01:44Z nij: It also says that Scheme resolves this by impose hygienic macros. How exactly do they do that (or should this go to #scheme)?
2021-02-03T09:02:47Z no-defun-allowed: In Common Lisp, you usually use GENSYM to make names of variables that the client shouldn't be able to see.
2021-02-03T09:04:43Z beach: nij: That would be the package that was current when the macro was created.
2021-02-03T09:05:23Z nij: Yeah.. that's what I read from gigamonkey.
2021-02-03T09:05:24Z nij: Hmm.. so perhaps wikipedia is outdated or something.
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2021-02-03T09:05:47Z beach: nij: No, two different problems.
2021-02-03T09:06:43Z beach: nij: What the article is referring to is a specific function called by the expansion of the macro.  That function should then have a name that is typically in the same package as the name of the macro.
2021-02-03T09:07:49Z beach: nij: What no-defun-allowed is saying is that, if some lexical variable is needed by the expansion of the macro, but with a name that does not matter otherwise, then GENSYM is used.
2021-02-03T09:08:18Z beach: nij: All this is quite well explained in the book On Lisp by Paul Graham.
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2021-02-03T09:09:10Z no-defun-allowed: The article mentions both GENSYM and using internal symbols.
2021-02-03T09:10:10Z beach: So it does.
2021-02-03T09:10:38Z no-defun-allowed: Those are in the "Temporary symbol creation" and "Packages" sections, respectively. Note that uninterned symbols, such as those made by GENSYM, have no package, so they can never conflict with other symbols.
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2021-02-03T09:11:49Z beach: no-defun-allowed: That's not all there is to it though.  If you use a symbol such as #:mumble in a macro, then it can conflict if macros are nested.
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2021-02-03T09:12:30Z beach: ... it can conflict with itself in different nesting depths.
2021-02-03T09:12:51Z nij: I did notice that.. just had an impression that the package method was preferred.
2021-02-03T09:13:10Z beach: nij: They solve two different problems as I said.
2021-02-03T09:13:42Z no-defun-allowed: That is true, you will want to call GENSYM (or whatever symbol-creating function you choose) in the macro definition that is the result of another macroexpansion, to avoid conflicts.
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2021-02-03T09:13:47Z beach: So it is important to use GENSYM so that different symbols are used for each (possibly nested) expansion.
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2021-02-03T09:17:13Z nij: Oh I got temporarily disconnected.. now I see. Thank you beach.
2021-02-03T09:17:21Z beach: Sure.
2021-02-03T09:17:30Z nij: Thank you no-defun-allowed :)
2021-02-03T09:17:46Z nij: (I'm pretty sure you use defmacro all the time. Keep the hard work ;))
2021-02-03T09:18:02Z no-defun-allowed: I tend to over-use GENSYM.
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2021-02-03T09:18:54Z beach: nij: Macros are not used nearly as often as functions (for instance), but when you need a macro, it is good that DEFMACRO is there.
2021-02-03T09:19:05Z no-defun-allowed: For example, there's a neat little "continuation" pattern, where one expands (with-foo () ...) to (flet ((continuation () ...)) (call-with-foo #'continuation)), in which case CONTINUATION can be an internal symbol.
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2021-02-03T09:19:39Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL uses internal symbols (for example, in WITH-MUTEX-HELD), but I GENSYM anyway.
2021-02-03T09:19:56Z no-defun-allowed: (Er, SBCL calls it WITH-MUTEX.)
2021-02-03T09:21:01Z nij: uh oh oh it's just a bad joke toward no-defun-allowed's nickname
2021-02-03T09:21:21Z nij: sorry, but yeah I am not pretty sure when to use macros either
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2021-02-03T10:39:53Z no-defun-allowed: Well, you couldn't use macros to implement WITH-MUTEX, and requiring the client to use CALL-WITH-MUTEX wouldn't look great.
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2021-02-03T10:55:18Z [d]: <n​o-defun-allowed#0000> Well, you couldn't use macros to implement WITH-MUTEX, and requiring the client to use CALL-WITH-MUTEX wouldn't look great.
2021-02-03T10:55:18Z [d]: <n​o-defun-allowed#0000> [edit]:
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2021-02-03T11:01:54Z no-defun-allowed: I agree, no-defun-allowed#0000.
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2021-02-03T11:26:59Z jmercouris: is there a way to signify to the compiler that a redefinition is intended so that no warnings are emitted?
2021-02-03T11:27:20Z jmercouris: so if I have (defun xyz), and then elsewhere I have (defun xyz) again, can I let the compiler know that is on purpose somehow?
2021-02-03T11:27:33Z jackdaniel: what would be a prupose of it?
2021-02-03T11:27:44Z jackdaniel: purpose*
2021-02-03T11:27:46Z jmercouris: I have two systems, one of them implements one version, another one version
2021-02-03T11:27:58Z jmercouris: sometimes I load system 1 and then system 2
2021-02-03T11:28:05Z jmercouris: system 1 has functionaly not existent in system 2, that system 2 requires
2021-02-03T11:28:15Z jmercouris: but system 2 modifies the behavior of system 1 by overriding some functions
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2021-02-03T11:29:06Z jackdaniel: you may (setf (fdefinition 'your-function) (lambda …))
2021-02-03T11:29:27Z jackdaniel: I think that this begs for a declaration, that your function is notinline (in system 1)\
2021-02-03T11:29:36Z jmercouris: a declaration?
2021-02-03T11:29:45Z jmercouris: notinline?
2021-02-03T11:29:50Z jmercouris: is that a keyword I don't nkow?
2021-02-03T11:29:58Z jmercouris: s/nkow/know
2021-02-03T11:29:58Z jackdaniel: (proclaim (declaim (notinline xyz))
2021-02-03T11:30:02Z jackdaniel: tfu
2021-02-03T11:30:05Z jackdaniel: without proclaim
2021-02-03T11:30:08Z jackdaniel: (declaim (notinline xyz))
2021-02-03T11:30:16Z jmercouris: I didn't know that was something I could declaim
2021-02-03T11:30:17Z jmercouris: interesting
2021-02-03T11:30:54Z jackdaniel: otherwise your compiler may inline the function body, and then your clever redefinition won't work as expected
2021-02-03T11:31:03Z jmercouris: what about for methods though
2021-02-03T11:31:11Z jmercouris: will it still allow me to set the fdefinition?
2021-02-03T11:31:12Z jackdaniel: methods are not functions
2021-02-03T11:31:28Z jmercouris: ay yai yai
2021-02-03T11:31:59Z jmercouris: is there a "ignore warnings" form or something I can put at the top of my file?
2021-02-03T11:32:03Z jmercouris: to suppress warnings when loading it?
2021-02-03T11:32:34Z jackdaniel: there is sbcl muffle-warnings, write asdf method which wraps your file compilation in muffle-warnings
2021-02-03T11:34:17Z jmercouris: seems clisp has *supress-check-redefinition*
2021-02-03T11:34:33Z jmercouris: I wish there was a cross implementation way to do this... I don't want to add SBCL specific code
2021-02-03T11:35:46Z jackdaniel: a new standard!
2021-02-03T11:35:57Z jackdaniel: cl2021
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2021-02-03T11:36:11Z jmercouris: ...
2021-02-03T11:36:25Z jmercouris: I'm happy enough with cl21 thank you very much
2021-02-03T11:36:33Z jmercouris: or what was it called again?
2021-02-03T11:36:35Z jmercouris: that thing by Eitaro
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2021-02-03T11:40:02Z jmercouris: http://cl21.org/
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2021-02-03T11:41:27Z jmercouris: I would seriously consider cl21 if it had a compiler to CL
2021-02-03T11:41:38Z jmercouris: it has some good ideas in there I think
2021-02-03T11:45:38Z jackdaniel: then use it, it is written in common lisp
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2021-02-03T11:46:01Z jackdaniel: (as in: you may simply load it, and you have access to common lisp compiler whatsoever)
2021-02-03T11:46:22Z jackdaniel: including all well known libraries like quicklisp, alexandria and asdf
2021-02-03T11:46:45Z jackdaniel: (if you like it that is - I don't)
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2021-02-03T11:52:00Z jmercouris: you can't use cl21 code in cl, that's my problem with it
2021-02-03T11:52:06Z jmercouris: I mean you can
2021-02-03T11:52:10Z jmercouris: but not without cl21 itself
2021-02-03T11:52:16Z jmercouris: you can't compile cl21 to standalone cl if I'm not mistaken
2021-02-03T11:53:41Z jackdaniel: I don't understand
2021-02-03T11:55:14Z jackdaniel: just do (ql:quickload :cl21) (save-lisp-and-die) and you have a binary with cl21
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2021-02-03T12:43:40Z ebrasca: jmercouris: I don't understand the purpose of cl21 , parts of it are alredy done by cl libraries.
2021-02-03T12:43:52Z jmercouris: yeah, parts of it are done by CL Libraries
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2021-02-03T12:44:09Z jmercouris: I just like the idea of a community effort to a new 'de facto' set of libraries to be included in a default distribution
2021-02-03T12:44:15Z jmercouris: also some of the reader macros are nice
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2021-02-03T12:47:18Z ebrasca: I think it is better to make small libraries , then people chose what they like.
2021-02-03T12:47:20Z Gnuxie[m]: No cos the idea of 'de facto' libraries is a terrible one
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2021-02-03T12:52:48Z _death: clhs muffle-warning
2021-02-03T12:52:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_muffle.htm
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2021-02-03T12:57:14Z flip214: did anyone manage to compress streams with CL-PDF? swank cross-reference tells me that I can activate the SALZA2 (LOAD-ZLIB) function, but *compress-streams* stays NIL
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2021-02-03T13:12:19Z jmercouris: _death: I see, thank you
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2021-02-03T13:17:53Z jmercouris: here's what I ended up with: http://dpaste.com/3BBXM8M9J
2021-02-03T13:17:55Z jmercouris: feels... strange
2021-02-03T13:18:34Z jmercouris: progn is unneeded..
2021-02-03T13:19:56Z phoe: don't ignore the condition
2021-02-03T13:20:27Z phoe: why did you define ignore-warning though? you should be able to use muffle-warning directly
2021-02-03T13:21:32Z jmercouris: phoe: IDK the CLHS had an example like that, so I mindlessly copied
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2021-02-03T13:30:43Z jmercouris: phoe: what is meant to be done with the condition there?
2021-02-03T13:31:04Z jmercouris: I assume of all people, you would know :-D
2021-02-03T13:31:08Z phoe: pass it to muffle-warning
2021-02-03T13:31:34Z phoe: use #'muffle-warning directly in the handler-bind and scrap your custom function
2021-02-03T13:33:27Z jmercouris: oh I see
2021-02-03T13:33:58Z jmercouris: I wonder why they did this indirection in the CLHS
2021-02-03T13:34:14Z jmercouris: wonder what they had in mind
2021-02-03T13:34:14Z phoe: CLHS examples contain a lot of silly things
2021-02-03T13:34:32Z beach: Yes, and non-conforming code. :)
2021-02-03T13:34:48Z beach: ... like top-level SETQs without prior definitions.
2021-02-03T13:35:59Z jmercouris: phoe: how much money would someone have to pay you to write the CLUS?
2021-02-03T13:36:04Z jackdaniel: I think that this gives a nice context of how people used pre-CL Lisp
2021-02-03T13:36:16Z jmercouris: just out of curiosity, like if there was a big coporation sponsoring you
2021-02-03T13:36:18Z jmercouris: how much would you charge
2021-02-03T13:37:52Z beach: jmercouris: My guess is that it is more a question of available time than of money.
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2021-02-03T13:40:14Z jmercouris: I don't see the difference
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2021-02-03T13:42:24Z jmercouris: give someone enough money, and they will make the time
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2021-02-03T13:42:47Z beach: Sure, but that might involve quitting the dayjob.
2021-02-03T13:43:59Z jmercouris: Yeah, that's true
2021-02-03T13:47:01Z beach: jmercouris: For instance, I could spend up to 1k€ per month for at least 6 months to get help with SICL-related projects, but there just aren't any people that are both available and qualified.
2021-02-03T13:47:33Z jmercouris: I bet if you had 300k€ per month, many more qualified people would suddenly be available
2021-02-03T13:48:02Z jmercouris: I think a lot of the problem with Common Lisp is the money available in the ecosystem, the problem is not technological
2021-02-03T13:48:20Z jmercouris: People learn JS not because it is a Oasis in a desert of bad languages, but because there is money to be made
2021-02-03T13:48:25Z jmercouris: why? industry movements, who knows why
2021-02-03T13:48:31Z beach: Yes, there is obviously some amount where people would quit their dayjobs.
2021-02-03T13:48:56Z jmercouris: the problem is and will continue to be a question of money
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2021-02-03T13:49:11Z jmercouris: there are many more people who would like to use Lisp more often, but they cannot, because having fun programming doesn't always put food on the table
2021-02-03T13:49:16Z jmercouris: slingings bits of JS however, often does
2021-02-03T13:49:33Z beach: That's not all there is though.  A lot of the work that we need done requires more basic knowledge than your typical Web job in industry.
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2021-02-03T13:49:55Z jmercouris: sure, many things are pioneering efforts rather than implementing yet another CRUD site
2021-02-03T13:50:19Z jmercouris: however, there are plenty of highly qualified people working in reesearch that requires lots of background
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2021-02-03T13:50:29Z aeth: You need charismatic projects. Then qualified people might be willing to take a pay cut (because if they're American they might be making well over $300,000 and you'll never have FAANG money).
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2021-02-03T13:51:04Z jmercouris: Yes, you're right aeth
2021-02-03T13:51:13Z jmercouris: maybe Nyxt will change that
2021-02-03T13:51:33Z jmercouris: I don't anticipate having FAANG level money, but I do anticipate success
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2021-02-03T13:53:17Z aeth: I wouldn't call a web browser "charismatic", but unfortunately Mozilla seems to be doing its best to implode recently, so maybe it will be one in the future.
2021-02-03T13:53:30Z aeth: (Especially mobile, wow I hate that redesign.)
2021-02-03T13:53:56Z jmercouris: well, your mistake is in thinking that Nyxt is a web browser
2021-02-03T13:54:03Z jmercouris: Nyxt is a lisp platform
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2021-02-03T13:54:42Z jmercouris: anyways, what would be a 'charismatic' project?
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2021-02-03T13:54:45Z jmercouris: Mezzano?
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2021-02-03T13:56:03Z aeth: Gamedev is probably the perennial software field where people take pay cuts to join. The rest are fairly opportunistic, like e.g. a social network in the past. Maybe VR or AR in the near future?
2021-02-03T13:56:31Z jmercouris: I don't find game development particularly inspiring or technologically interesting
2021-02-03T13:56:41Z aeth: Chat seems to be a fairly strong motivator, too...
2021-02-03T13:56:53Z aeth: Never would've motivated me since we have IRC, of course.
2021-02-03T13:57:37Z aeth: Maybe self-driving cars were an example of this in the past? They have the money now, though.
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2021-02-03T13:58:22Z Xach: I think I may get to use ldiff in real code today!
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2021-02-03T13:59:04Z aeth: jmercouris: I've probably missed a huge amount of categories just because they've always seemed fairly boring to me. e.g. maybe NoSQL was like this in the past. As in, just plain boring database stuff with a PR spin.
2021-02-03T13:59:33Z jmercouris: well, one mans boredom is another man's fascination
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2021-02-03T13:59:54Z jmercouris: I'm sure most people here find browsers relatively boring
2021-02-03T14:01:32Z aeth: Yeah. It's probably hard to tell which fields had lots of people willing to take pay cuts in over the years to work in. Probably only VCs have that complete data set.
2021-02-03T14:01:37Z beach: Maybe a killer app rather than an OS would be "charismatic".  Imagine something like MuseScore but written in Common Lisp instead.
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2021-02-03T14:02:05Z beach: I mean, an OS is what we need, but it would be hard to make people accept and use it.
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2021-02-03T14:04:20Z beach: It is hard for me to understand why anyone would write such a thing in C++.
2021-02-03T14:04:34Z jmercouris: Nyxt is supposed to be the killer App
2021-02-03T14:04:41Z jmercouris: Mezzano is supposed to be the OS :-D
2021-02-03T14:04:47Z _death: Xach: ldiff/member idiom is cool
2021-02-03T14:04:58Z jmercouris: I'll report back in 10 years if I've made headway or not...
2021-02-03T14:05:23Z Xach: _death: i feel like i don't use ldiff enough, so it makes me smile when i come up with a new, non-contrived reason to use it.
2021-02-03T14:05:44Z Xach: now if only i could find reasons to use nreconc or revappend more
2021-02-03T14:06:00Z beach: jmercouris: I was under the impression that large parts of Nyxt are written in C or C++.  Not so?
2021-02-03T14:06:08Z jmercouris: Nothing in Nyxt is written in C
2021-02-03T14:06:21Z jmercouris: we just use foreign libraries
2021-02-03T14:06:30Z _death: Xach: another use could be (do* ((right list (rest right)) (left nil (ldiff list right))) ((null right)) ...)
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2021-02-03T14:06:42Z beach: jmercouris: But those are written in C or C++, right?
2021-02-03T14:06:49Z jmercouris: that's correct, but they are not part of Nyxt
2021-02-03T14:07:21Z beach: Still, I wouldn't be able to run Nyxt on an OS without a C compiler.
2021-02-03T14:07:30Z jmercouris: sure, luckily C code can compile on Mezzano
2021-02-03T14:07:39Z jmercouris: and we will also make a renderer at some point that we can afford to
2021-02-03T14:07:50Z jmercouris: s/that/when
2021-02-03T14:08:48Z beach: Yeah, I wasn't thinking of Mezzano right then.
2021-02-03T14:10:56Z _death: Xach: looks like I used ldiff twice in aoc2020.. I was certain that I have some revappend uses somewhere as well, but can't find'em right now
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2021-02-03T14:38:06Z red-dot: Hello everyone.
2021-02-03T14:38:25Z red-dot: anyone on Windows using UIOP:run-program will a full path?
2021-02-03T14:38:36Z red-dot: e.g. (uiop:run-program "C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Google\\Chrome\\Application\\chrome.exe")?
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2021-02-03T14:39:31Z red-dot: It doesn't seem like uiop:run-program works with absolute paths, at least not with SBCL and Windows. I thought this was working in the past...
2021-02-03T14:40:02Z pfdietz: The CLHS has some thing that are in direct conflict with each other.   complex types, I'm looking at you.
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2021-02-03T14:46:45Z Bike: oh, are there parts that disagree about how they work with upgrading?
2021-02-03T14:46:58Z Bike: yyyyyes. super
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2021-02-03T14:49:06Z nij: After getting stumpwm from ql:quickload, can I make install using asdf, but not the GNU make tools as it's stated in the readme? https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm
2021-02-03T14:49:35Z Bike: i don't think asdf really does installations
2021-02-03T14:50:27Z jmercouris: you COULD have your asd file do the installation for you, but it is not part of ASDF
2021-02-03T14:51:10Z nij: What then is the make tools used commonly in CL community? GNU make tools?
2021-02-03T14:51:25Z jmercouris: typically just a makefile, yes
2021-02-03T14:51:40Z jmercouris: we don't need it for much, mostly just moving around an executable
2021-02-03T14:51:58Z jmercouris: possibly checking for dependencies, simplifying the compilation process for non lisp users
2021-02-03T14:55:30Z nij: if the users have sbcl and quicklisp installed, the compilation process would be easier?
2021-02-03T14:55:42Z jmercouris: well, yeah
2021-02-03T14:55:57Z jmercouris: how else could they compile CL without CL?
2021-02-03T14:56:39Z nij: First install CL for them as a dependency.
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2021-02-03T14:57:52Z nij: Oh I see. At that stage you better use Make.
2021-02-03T14:59:05Z jmercouris: users do not need to compile your software for you to distribute it
2021-02-03T14:59:12Z jmercouris: you can distribute lisp images of your software compiled on similar machiens
2021-02-03T14:59:16Z jmercouris: s/machiens/machines
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2021-02-03T15:04:10Z _death: red-dot: try passing (list (uiop:native-namestring "C:\\...")) .. if a string is passed, uiop:run-program treats it as a "command", which I guess won't do with spaces and no quotes or something similar
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2021-02-03T15:26:16Z thatpythonboy: hi
2021-02-03T15:26:33Z beach: Hello thatpythonboy.
2021-02-03T15:27:02Z thatpythonboy: if i read roots of lisp paper, will i know lisp-like qualities such as read/eval/macros
2021-02-03T15:27:18Z thatpythonboy: i prefer rootsoflisp as i find gigamonkeys too big
2021-02-03T15:27:36Z beach: I don't know that paper.  Do you have a link?
2021-02-03T15:27:59Z thatpythonboy: www.paulgraham.com/rootsoflisp.html
2021-02-03T15:28:00Z beach: But I would say "no" because many of the current features were not in there from the beginning.
2021-02-03T15:29:48Z beach: Looking at it briefly, I am now convinced that the answer is "no".
2021-02-03T15:30:10Z beach: Well, you will know some.
2021-02-03T15:30:20Z beach: Like EVAL is explained.
2021-02-03T15:31:03Z thatpythonboy: then what extra  gigamonkeys has
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2021-02-03T15:31:40Z beach: Macros, classes, generic functions, ...
2021-02-03T15:31:45Z alandipert: writing your own small lisp can be very informative and https://norvig.com/lispy.html is a great guide (using python)
2021-02-03T15:31:53Z thatpythonboy: i know classes,functions from python
2021-02-03T15:32:09Z beach: thatpythonboy: No, they are very different in Common Lisp.
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2021-02-03T15:32:19Z thatpythonboy: i am talking about concepts not OOP/paradigms
2021-02-03T15:32:31Z thatpythonboy: i read functions chapter it's the same
2021-02-03T15:32:44Z thatpythonboy: classes are different
2021-02-03T15:32:46Z beach: I said "generic functions".  They are unique to Common Lisp.
2021-02-03T15:33:02Z thatpythonboy: what do you mean generic, a function is a function
2021-02-03T15:33:09Z phoe: thatpythonboy: not in CL
2021-02-03T15:33:12Z ecraven: thatpythonboy: it is indeed not
2021-02-03T15:33:16Z thatpythonboy: this is mysterious language
2021-02-03T15:33:18Z phoe: a generic function is a term in Common Lisp
2021-02-03T15:33:27Z phoe: read the proper PCL chapter to figure it out!
2021-02-03T15:33:32Z ecraven: it's like a virtual function on steroids
2021-02-03T15:33:41Z phoe: a generic function is something that has methods. in CL, methods don't belong to classes.
2021-02-03T15:33:54Z beach: thatpythonboy: Clearly, if you expect Common Lisp to be just like the languages you know, there is nothing to learn.
2021-02-03T15:34:27Z ecraven: hm.. what does c++ call the implementations of a virtual function? just "implementations"?
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2021-02-03T15:34:58Z phoe: overrides or something
2021-02-03T15:35:17Z ecraven: they should just have used proper names :P
2021-02-03T15:35:29Z thatpythonboy: i read functions chapter it didn't seem different than python
2021-02-03T15:35:38Z thatpythonboy: which chapter then
2021-02-03T15:35:45Z phoe: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html
2021-02-03T15:35:50Z jdz: beach: Julia also has generic functions (inspired by CL, as far as I know).
2021-02-03T15:36:06Z beach: jdz: I see.  Thanks!
2021-02-03T15:36:30Z thatpythonboy: but julia functions don't have methods
2021-02-03T15:37:11Z ecraven: thatpythonboy: first hit on google, https://docs.julialang.org/en/v1/manual/functions/, says "f (generic function with 1 method)"
2021-02-03T15:37:16Z ecraven: so it seems to use *exactly* the same names for things
2021-02-03T15:38:54Z _death: there's also dylan, goo, etc. but they all miss some CLOS features (and may have features not in CLOS, though we also have a good MOP)
2021-02-03T15:39:32Z beach forgot about Dylan.
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2021-02-03T15:40:00Z thatpythonboy: that is just a function that julia calls a method due to multiple dispatch
2021-02-03T15:42:02Z phoe: using julia nomenclature though, julia's GFs *do* have methods
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2021-02-03T15:42:11Z phoe: so do CL generic functions
2021-02-03T15:42:17Z ecraven: beach: I wish prefix-dylan would have taken off
2021-02-03T15:42:26Z _death: thatpythonboy: a generic function contains a bunch of methods.. when it's called, it decides which methods to call
2021-02-03T15:42:30Z phoe: and CL's methods are *not* "just" functions due to the presence of method combinations.
2021-02-03T15:42:52Z ecraven: phoe: is there *any* other language or non-CL-Lisp that has method combinations?
2021-02-03T15:42:55Z beach: ecraven: I see what you mean.  RScheme from U Texas is essentially that.
2021-02-03T15:42:58Z phoe: ecraven: I am not aware of one
2021-02-03T15:43:25Z ecraven: the more I try to implement these things myself in different Schemes, the more I wonder how any of this can be even halfway performant in CL... you guys (and all before you) really do great work!
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2021-02-03T15:44:01Z beach: ecraven: What are "these things" that you are referring to?
2021-02-03T15:44:29Z ecraven: making method dispatch fast
2021-02-03T15:44:33Z thatpythonboy: peter norvig shows a lisp interpreter in python, is there one in lisp itself?
2021-02-03T15:44:42Z phoe: thatpythonboy: yes, roots of lisp shows one
2021-02-03T15:44:43Z ecraven: I tried implementing a generic predicate dispatch in chez scheme (which is really fast by itself)
2021-02-03T15:44:44Z _death: thatpythonboy: PCL is a book, whereas roots of lisp is a short article.. you say PCL is too big, but you're also asking whether to read a short article, which is strange
2021-02-03T15:44:46Z ecraven: it's really slow :D
2021-02-03T15:44:46Z thatpythonboy: rootsoflisp says the interpreter is incomplete
2021-02-03T15:44:47Z beach: ecraven: I see.  I suppose you read my paper about that, yes?
2021-02-03T15:44:57Z ecraven: beach: I read all of your and other people's papers
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2021-02-03T15:45:05Z beach: Wow!
2021-02-03T15:45:09Z ecraven: I just need a few more years of time to implement things ;)
2021-02-03T15:45:15Z beach: Heh.
2021-02-03T15:45:23Z ecraven: (sorry, "on that subject", not "all of your papers in general")
2021-02-03T15:45:25Z phoe: thatpythonboy: if you mean "just" a lisp, then https://github.com/kanaka/mal has a lot of those
2021-02-03T15:45:31Z phoe: that's not going to be CL though.
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2021-02-03T15:45:34Z ecraven: maybe
2021-02-03T15:45:49Z phoe: though there is an implementation of MAL in Common Lisp at https://github.com/kanaka/mal/tree/master/impls/common-lisp
2021-02-03T15:45:52Z thatpythonboy: just need a basic interpreter not big CL mess
2021-02-03T15:46:04Z ecraven: I should just give up and use CL already... :D I've been trying to implement halfway decent SLIME support in various Schemes, and none of them are even halfway as introspectable as the worst CL implementation
2021-02-03T15:46:05Z phoe: then that is going to work well
2021-02-03T15:46:28Z _death: thatpythonboy: maybe you should go to a non-CL channel then
2021-02-03T15:46:46Z ecraven: thatpythonboy: #lisp is actually
2021-02-03T15:46:55Z ecraven: #common-lisp
2021-02-03T15:46:59Z beach: thatpythonboy: It is not a great idea to call the topic of this channel a "mess".  At least not if you want help.
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2021-02-03T15:48:38Z alandipert: Bless This Mess <3
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2021-02-03T16:21:29Z beach: Strange one this "thatpythonboy" person.  Maybe just a result of being uncomfortable and/or having some problems with English.
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2021-02-03T16:49:17Z jmercouris: format directive for a percentage?
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2021-02-03T16:51:41Z jmercouris: well, this is what I have resorted to: (format t "~0d%" (* 100 .01))
2021-02-03T16:51:43Z jmercouris: ... :'(
2021-02-03T16:51:48Z jmercouris: ay yai yai
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2021-02-03T17:36:55Z jasom: jmercouris: if you need to do it a lot you can make your own printer function and use ~/
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2021-02-03T17:39:22Z jmercouris: I see
2021-02-03T17:39:38Z jmercouris: jasom: don't know how to do that, maybe I will learn it at some point
2021-02-03T17:39:41Z jasom: jmercouris: it comes at a cost of either polluting cl-user or having really long names
2021-02-03T17:42:38Z jasom: jmercouris: https://github.com/jasom/jtk/blob/master/ltk.lisp#L1089 <- example here.  I like it very much for escaping because (format s "~A ~A ~A" x (escape y) z) is much harder to tell is correct than (format s "~A ~/ltk:esc/ ~A" x y z) (assuming the item in the 2nd position must be escaped and 1st and 3rd must not)
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2021-02-03T17:45:19Z jasom: totally OT, but the "correct" algorithm for escaping strings in TCL is *really* non-obvious, exposed in LTK by the fact that when I added this one, there were already 2 other escaping functions, one of which was super-linear in time and the other one of which was wrong.
2021-02-03T17:45:47Z jackdaniel: 3 is a reasonable approximation of pi
2021-02-03T17:45:51Z jackdaniel: and it is a fixnum! :)
2021-02-03T17:46:37Z _death: it's also a good approximation of 2
2021-02-03T17:46:47Z jackdaniel: true that
2021-02-03T17:46:58Z jasom: it's a pretty darn good approximation of 0 in a lot of domains as well
2021-02-03T17:47:39Z jackdaniel: (zerop pi) ;-> T
2021-02-03T17:47:56Z charles`: on the cosmological scale, everything is nearby
2021-02-03T17:48:01Z jmercouris: (zerop pi) -> nil
2021-02-03T17:48:10Z jmercouris: not sure which version of CL you are using, must be a bug in ECL
2021-02-03T17:49:36Z jasom: (zerop (* 10 (round pi 10))) ;-> T
2021-02-03T17:50:13Z _death: jmercouris: ~D is for printing integers
2021-02-03T17:50:20Z jmercouris: yes, sorry
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2021-02-03T18:00:16Z jmercouris: do (print element))(defparameter q '((a b c) (1 2 3)))
2021-02-03T18:00:22Z jmercouris: sorry, ignore that, starting over
2021-02-03T18:00:26Z jmercouris: (defparameter q '((a b c) (1 2 3)))
2021-02-03T18:00:34Z jmercouris: now I want to: (loop for element in q with a = (first element) do (print a))
2021-02-03T18:00:46Z jmercouris: the loop would print "a" and then "1"
2021-02-03T18:00:57Z jmercouris: possible? or do I need a let binding within the do?
2021-02-03T18:00:59Z jackdaniel: replace with with for
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2021-02-03T18:01:04Z jmercouris: oh, thank you
2021-02-03T18:01:07Z jackdaniel: or replace replace with for
2021-02-03T18:01:07Z jmercouris: I confuse those
2021-02-03T18:01:13Z jackdaniel: eventually replace with for for
2021-02-03T18:01:17Z jmercouris: ???
2021-02-03T18:01:25Z jmercouris: I'm now completely lost replace with for for?
2021-02-03T18:01:43Z jackdaniel: I was making a joke with the original "with with" that was /not/ a typo
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2021-02-03T18:01:49Z jmercouris: I see
2021-02-03T18:01:51Z jmercouris: 11
2021-02-03T18:02:33Z _death: use let
2021-02-03T18:02:53Z jmercouris: _death:
2021-02-03T18:02:54Z jmercouris: why?
2021-02-03T18:03:06Z _death: you can also use FOR
2021-02-03T18:03:22Z jackdaniel: (loop for (i) in '((a b c) (1 2 3)) do (print i))
2021-02-03T18:03:38Z jackdaniel: so many ways
2021-02-03T18:03:55Z jackdaniel: (progn (print 'a) (print 1))
2021-02-03T18:04:31Z _death: if you get confused, others may find it confusing as well.. so if you're in doubt, just use the more primitive operators
2021-02-03T18:05:46Z jackdaniel: _death: this isn't a good argument for standard operators -- one would get confused why are you not using a designed operator to achieve something
2021-02-03T18:06:44Z _death: jackdaniel: well, here we're discussing LOOP.. there are many pitfalls with LOOP so I don't mind if I see someone using let there instead of other ways
2021-02-03T18:07:21Z jackdaniel: OK, that position could be defendable in context of loop, I've read it as a general advice
2021-02-03T18:08:22Z _death: jackdaniel: I think it may also stand as a general advice, but I'm not sure I want to defend that position
2021-02-03T18:08:34Z jmercouris: I have grown to love loop
2021-02-03T18:08:38Z jmercouris: maybe in time I will love format too
2021-02-03T18:08:42Z jmercouris: probably not for a long time
2021-02-03T18:11:23Z _death: jackdaniel: basically I'd rather read transparent, if a bit eccentric, code than confused code ;)
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2021-02-03T18:11:51Z jackdaniel: me too. but I'd rather see defclass instead of bunch of interwingled closures
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2021-02-03T18:12:20Z jmercouris: I'm personally a master of obfuscating the purpose of my code via OO paradigms
2021-02-03T18:12:30Z jmercouris: I'm just joking of course
2021-02-03T18:13:28Z jackdaniel: interwingled is of course a mashup of intertwined and intermingled
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2021-02-03T18:20:08Z Nilby: give in and love format https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2272#2272
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2021-02-03T18:25:41Z theothornhill: Nilby: that almost looks like rust :)
2021-02-03T18:27:02Z Nilby *gasps*
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2021-02-03T18:34:19Z _death: the last one is relevant to jmercouris's problem.. (format t "~{~1{~A~}~}" q)
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2021-02-03T19:41:01Z jasom: jmercouris: only thing to remember with the loop FOR clause is that it *sets* the value, it does not make a new binding for each iteration
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2021-02-03T19:42:10Z jasom: (mapcar #'funcall (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect (lambda () i))) ;-> (11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11)
2021-02-03T19:42:42Z jasom: compare to (mapcar #'funcall (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect (let ((i i)) (lambda () i))))
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2021-02-03T19:46:07Z Josh_2: Hey, I am pretty sure I read a paper or blog post by someone in here regarding random testing?
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2021-02-03T19:46:29Z Xach: Josh_2: pfdietz has done a lot of work on the topic but i don't know of a paper or blog post about it by him.
2021-02-03T19:47:10Z Josh_2: I think thats the fella
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2021-02-03T20:03:26Z xificurC: is it possible to create an object that for all intents and purposes behaves like <X> but also has other capabilities? <X> = anything, e.g. string or list. E.g. I have a string holding a preprocessor template and depending on some configuration I later have to decide how to export it (escaped or not). I thought attaching the fact that it is a
2021-02-03T20:03:26Z xificurC: template as metadata would be a nice solution, since the exporter can get other, non-templaty strings as well.
2021-02-03T20:04:10Z xificurC: wrapping it in a special object deprives the rest of the code accessing that string as a string, which it really is
2021-02-03T20:05:21Z Bike: sounds like subclassing. you can't subclass string or list, though.
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2021-02-03T20:07:31Z Nilby: I made my own string class, but it's a lot of work, since it's below the "bolted on".
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2021-02-03T20:08:50Z xificurC: Bike you're right, it is subclassing basically. Thanks for the answers. I won't push against a wall then
2021-02-03T20:09:18Z xificurC: I thought it might be simple or that mop might allow it
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2021-02-03T20:17:38Z anticrisis: Should this print without the SBCL version banner? echo '(write-line "Hello world")' | sbcl --no-sysinit --no-userinit --noprint --noinform
2021-02-03T20:18:56Z Bike: yeah so that ties in with the sort of confusing way sbcl command line options work
2021-02-03T20:19:14Z Bike: you need to specify --noinform before before the other options
2021-02-03T20:20:03Z Bike: because, when you run sbcl, you run the sbcl _runtime_, which loads the sbcl image which starts the sbcl _toplevel_, and then you can put options the user program can get at
2021-02-03T20:20:16Z Bike: --noinform is an option for the runtime while the others are options for the toplevel
2021-02-03T20:20:46Z Josh_2: is the :report keyword (when defining conditions) basically a shortcut for print-object
2021-02-03T20:21:22Z Bike: so, when you put --no-sysinit first, it thinks you haven't specified any runtime options, and --noinform is not a toplevel option so it's treated as a user option (I think)
2021-02-03T20:21:48Z Bike: Josh_2: yes. the clhs page gives the particular equivalence
2021-02-03T20:22:15Z anticrisis: Oh wow, and I was reading the man page
2021-02-03T20:22:46Z anticrisis: Nice, thank you
2021-02-03T20:22:46Z Bike: it's in the man page, though it's not a super detailed explanation
2021-02-03T20:23:30Z anticrisis: it might be nice to add to sbcl --help
2021-02-03T20:24:01Z Bike: i suppose the "Usage:" line in sbcl --help is supposed to indicate it
2021-02-03T20:24:06Z Bike: but --help is necessarily pretty brief
2021-02-03T20:24:18Z Bike: doesn't even mention noinform, huh
2021-02-03T20:24:23Z anticrisis: right :)
2021-02-03T20:25:09Z anticrisis: I just wanted to time it against the equivalent `node -e` to look at startup time
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2021-02-03T20:25:42Z _death: xificurC: you could keep a hash-table associating that object with whatever you want.. you can have it weakly keyed
2021-02-03T20:25:46Z xificurC: startup time compared to node is really unfair
2021-02-03T20:26:03Z anticrisis: unfair to node?
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2021-02-03T20:26:29Z xificurC: yes, it's like comparing the fattest kid from the school to, well, any other kid
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2021-02-03T20:26:53Z xificurC: _death then it's a hash table, not a string anymore
2021-02-03T20:27:30Z anticrisis: I like to tease my node friend now and then
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2021-02-03T20:27:42Z White_Flame: your object is a key to the metadata table, instead of the metadata being on the object itself
2021-02-03T20:27:52Z _death: xificurC: no, you just use the hash-table to associate information with the object.. you pass the string as-is, and when you need to make a decision based on that information you check the hash-table.. but it could get tricky with mutable objects
2021-02-03T20:29:52Z _death: xificurC: here's an example https://github.com/death/dbus/blob/master/utils.lisp#L254
2021-02-03T20:29:55Z White_Flame: of course, the object should be a heap object, too.  if you have a fixnum or character or whatever, you're not going to be identifying that specific instance of that value, because it's not reified
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2021-02-03T20:31:05Z _death: White_Flame: right
2021-02-03T20:31:43Z xificurC: ah, that makes sense and might be a viable alternative. Thanks _death and White_Flame
2021-02-03T20:33:52Z White_Flame: it's better than making everything inherit from my-object which piles on all the custom doodads you want on your stuff :-P
2021-02-03T20:34:14Z White_Flame: which is what you tend to end up with many other languages
2021-02-03T20:40:42Z xificurC: White_Flame I'd just put a hash-table in for storing metadata. It's a bit more convenient than having the metadata spread out in multiple hash tables, but it does the job
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2021-02-03T20:44:11Z _death: you could have an object-plist (generalizing symbol-plist) accessor, sure.. with the caveats mentioned
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2021-02-03T21:30:52Z Josh_2: If you kill a thread with destroy-thread I assume that (unwind-protect ..) doesn't matter?
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2021-02-03T21:35:59Z no-defun-allowed: It will not unwind, no.
2021-02-03T21:37:02Z Josh_2: Is there a portable version of SBCL's Timer subsystem?
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2021-02-03T21:37:59Z no-defun-allowed: I think a better idea is to interrupt the thread with a function which attempts to unwind, maybe by wrapping MAKE-THREAD so that the thread function is run in a dynamic environment with e.g. a CATCH tag or a handler for some error type. (Or can you (invoke-restart 'abort) in other threads?)
2021-02-03T21:39:09Z Bike: restarts are part of the dynamic context, so they're not copied for new threads
2021-02-03T21:39:12Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/no-defun-allowed/bailout/blob/master/Code/job.lisp#L45 is an overengineered implementation of that idea.
2021-02-03T21:39:24Z Bike: but implementations usually establish an ABORT or ABORT-THREAD restart in all threads
2021-02-03T21:41:31Z Bike: on sbcl for example, every thread function has an implicit (catch 'sb-thread::%abort-thread ...) around its body, and then when you abort it just throws, which naturally unwinds everything
2021-02-03T21:42:09Z Josh_2: no-defun-allowed: I normally just set a variable some place and the thread shuts itself down
2021-02-03T21:43:35Z no-defun-allowed: Right, then you could get stuck if the threads get stuck somehow. But the alternative is that, by unwinding, you could still violate the expectations the code author had w.r.t control flow, and break something.
2021-02-03T21:43:49Z Josh_2: if the threads get stuck the threads generally get yeeted
2021-02-03T21:44:02Z no-defun-allowed: (This is, in part, why the capability is only sent to the supervisor when something goes wrong.)
2021-02-03T21:44:04Z Josh_2: give 'em five seconds then yeet em
2021-02-03T21:45:44Z Josh_2: anyway I don't need to do that if there is a nice library that'll let me run a function in a thread every X amount of time
2021-02-03T21:47:09Z Josh_2: Trivial-timers :P
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2021-02-03T21:47:20Z no-defun-allowed: Assuming your function returns instantaneously, (bt:make-thread (lambda () (loop until stopped? do (f) (sleep x)))) is pretty close.
2021-02-03T21:47:32Z no-defun-allowed: Adjusting the sleep time is an exercise for the reader.
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2021-02-03T21:48:09Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, also locking or CASing the stopped? variable, so that you don't get weird looks.
2021-02-03T21:48:51Z Josh_2: make it an object and use metalock
2021-02-03T21:48:54Z Josh_2: problem solved
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2021-02-03T21:49:45Z Josh_2: huh I just tried to quickload :trivial-timers and it failed
2021-02-03T21:50:13Z Josh_2: well rip I'll just do it myself
2021-02-03T21:52:26Z no-defun-allowed: I wonder what those locks are supposed to achieve.
2021-02-03T21:53:06Z Josh_2: what locks?
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2021-02-03T21:53:50Z no-defun-allowed: In metalock, specifically because they only make slot-value and (setf slot-value) atomic.
2021-02-03T21:54:28Z Josh_2: yes
2021-02-03T21:55:11Z Josh_2: well no it makes slot-value-using-class atomic
2021-02-03T21:55:13Z no-defun-allowed: Usually I find myself wanting to have exclusive access to slots for a while, e.g. with-lock-held. You could do unconditional sets with metalock, but you couldn't e.g. implement a counter properly.
2021-02-03T21:55:37Z Bike: no read-modify-write?
2021-02-03T21:56:14Z no-defun-allowed: That's the other option, yes.
2021-02-03T21:56:28Z Josh_2: anyway, it works as intended :P
2021-02-03T21:56:57Z no-defun-allowed: decentralise2 has a "locked box" structure for those kinds of things.
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2021-02-03T21:57:10Z Josh_2: metalock has a metaclass for those kinds of things :P
2021-02-03T21:57:46Z no-defun-allowed: You can implement counters with a locked-box: https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/cl-decentralise2/-/blob/master/Code/Utilities/thread-box.lisp
2021-02-03T21:58:19Z Bike: docstring really inspiring confidence here
2021-02-03T21:58:57Z no-defun-allowed: Empirically, it did work, but it's slow for concurrent access of course.
2021-02-03T21:59:03Z Bike: anyway, yeah, i wonder what the author of metalock is thinking. are there interesting thread safe data structures that don't need at least a RMW?
2021-02-03T22:00:12Z Josh_2: RMW?
2021-02-03T22:00:15Z _death: no-defun-allowed: but (incf (box-value box)) exposes a race condition
2021-02-03T22:00:17Z Bike: read-modify-write
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2021-02-03T22:00:31Z no-defun-allowed: _death: Correct, use (with-unlocked-box (v box) (incf v))
2021-02-03T22:01:36Z Josh_2: Bike: I simply didn't want to have to call with-held-lock, thats all xD
2021-02-03T22:01:47Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps (setf box-value) is a worse idea than box-value, but if your idea of concurrency is that of Josh_2, then it'll work fine. :D
2021-02-03T22:01:55Z _death: no-defun-allowed: so I'm not sure what the point of a box is? associate a lock with a value?
2021-02-03T22:01:59Z Bike: Josh_2: you don't understand what i'm saying. If you can only read or write slots, you cannot safely do things as simple as increment a counter.
2021-02-03T22:02:23Z Bike: Josh_2: If you read a slot and then write it, another thread could try to increment the slot value between those two operations, and then your write would undo that.
2021-02-03T22:02:41Z Josh_2: yes
2021-02-03T22:02:47Z no-defun-allowed: _death: Exactly that. And that it's harder to get at the value without locking.
2021-02-03T22:02:49Z Bike: okay, so what is that actually good for?
2021-02-03T22:02:54Z Josh_2: Not doing that
2021-02-03T22:03:01Z Bike: But what ARE you doing
2021-02-03T22:03:08Z Josh_2: Literally not having to called "with-lock-held"
2021-02-03T22:03:25Z Bike: I am asking what kind of thread safe algorithms don't need RMW or anything. I am curious.
2021-02-03T22:03:27Z no-defun-allowed: If you make (box <blah> :copier #'identity), then (modify! (box-value <that box>)) then it's game over, but it has made foot-shooting in concurrent programs a bit harder for me.
2021-02-03T22:03:58Z no-defun-allowed: I'm pretty sure it's only good for sharing "should I stop now?" variables which are set unconditionally.
2021-02-03T22:04:03Z _death: I think these things evolved into STM, which supports transparent composition.. (the other way is message passing)
2021-02-03T22:04:08Z Josh_2: generally I have just used it for a top level object that holds various other structures, such as a 'server' class etc
2021-02-03T22:04:42Z Bike: But what do you do with them if you can't write modifications back safely?
2021-02-03T22:04:42Z no-defun-allowed: I wasn't aware of STM when I started writing decentralise2, and I don't know how it would interact with hash tables, for example.
2021-02-03T22:05:10Z _death: no-defun-allowed: for counters and flags like that, atomic operations seem to work
2021-02-03T22:06:07Z Josh_2: I don't know what you mean
2021-02-03T22:06:17Z no-defun-allowed: You could have an ABA problem with metalock.
2021-02-03T22:06:36Z Bike: I don't understand what you're doing with the lcoks. In what situation would you want a "with-lock-held" as you put it to begin with?
2021-02-03T22:06:57Z Bike: I'm just asking what kind of synchronization you're actually doing.
2021-02-03T22:07:40Z Josh_2: a access is wrapped by a reader writer lock
2021-02-03T22:07:46Z Josh_2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Readers%E2%80%93writer_lock#Using_a_condition_variable_and_a_mutex
2021-02-03T22:08:05Z Bike: i know what a rw lock is. i am asking about the higher level design.
2021-02-03T22:08:14Z Josh_2: what higher level design, there isn't any
2021-02-03T22:08:59Z Bike: I mean, look. Say I have an application with a bunch of threads. Each thread does some work and then increments a counter when its done. The main thread polls the counter to display a progress bar and then exits when it's maximized.
2021-02-03T22:09:21Z Bike: That's a higher level design. I think it's pretty simple but metalock can't do it. So I'm just kind of curious what sort of design you would use it for instead.
2021-02-03T22:09:28Z Josh_2: all that library does is change the default behaviour slot-value-using-class so that it performs It's read/write with a writer lock
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2021-02-03T22:09:43Z Josh_2: or reader lock, it doesn't guarantee anything
2021-02-03T22:09:52Z no-defun-allowed: Exactly.
2021-02-03T22:10:06Z Josh_2: It's not meant to guarantee anything other than you won't read/write at the same time
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2021-02-03T22:10:15Z no-defun-allowed: What can you achieve if it doesn't guarantee anything else?
2021-02-03T22:10:17Z _death: but blindly holding a lock when writing something doesn't get you much
2021-02-03T22:13:00Z no-defun-allowed: Suppose you have two threads A and B which run (setf (some-locked-thing) (1+ (some-locked-thing)), and (some-locked-thing) evaluates to 1 to start with.
2021-02-03T22:13:08Z Josh_2: yes
2021-02-03T22:13:34Z no-defun-allowed: One order of events is A reads 1, B reads 1, B sets 2, A sets 2. You want to lock for the whole SETF form, so that the whole computation is atomic.
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2021-02-03T22:14:23Z no-defun-allowed: (i.e that it must be A reads 1, A sets 2, B reads 2, B sets 3, or that but with A and B swapped.)
2021-02-03T22:17:44Z Josh_2: Literally just guarantees that two threads wont write a slot at the same time
2021-02-03T22:18:48Z Bike: Yes but why. Why does it guarantee that and not more. What does that guarantee get you? What is it useful? I can't think of any thread coordination algorithms that only need that guarantee. That's what I'm asking. I don't understand what the usecase is. I understand what the guarantee is and you don't need to repeat that.
2021-02-03T22:19:00Z Josh_2: I have personally found it quite useful
2021-02-03T22:19:05Z Bike: for what?
2021-02-03T22:20:21Z _death: we have https://cliki.net/stmx .. though right now as I tried to load it, it got "stuck" until I C-c C-c'd, and at that point it resumed.. gasp
2021-02-03T22:20:51Z Bike: i remember that one did some pretty in depth sbcl stuff for the hardware STM
2021-02-03T22:20:57Z Bike: maybe it's out of date
2021-02-03T22:21:05Z Bike: er, hardware TM
2021-02-03T22:21:44Z _death: last commit was not long ago.. deleting the fasls it does the same, seems reproducible
2021-02-03T22:22:38Z _death: <WARN> [00:22:22] stmx.lang thread.lisp (detect-thread-support fun5) - Warning: compiling STMX without multi-threading support. reason: (BORDEAUX-THREADS:JOIN-THREAD (BORDEAUX-THREADS:MAKE-THREAD ...)) signaled an exception: inconsistent form-number-translations
2021-02-03T22:23:21Z Bike: what does that inconsistent form-number-translations thing actually mean? i get it in sbcl a lot
2021-02-03T22:23:28Z Bike: for non-stmx reasons. something about M-.?
2021-02-03T22:23:48Z _death: Bike: yeah, I sometimes get that as well with recent SBCLs
2021-02-03T22:24:08Z Bike: also, i hope bordeaux threads provides a better way to check thread support than that
2021-02-03T22:24:11Z _death: Bike: yeah, it happened when I tried to go to source in the debugger
2021-02-03T22:25:23Z Bike: https://github.com/cosmos72/stmx/blob/209241acec51b5aaeac321d4cdad629f2190ba04/lang/thread.lisp#L92-L102 yeah, this doesn't seem great. shouldn't it be (or warning error) or something?
2021-02-03T22:26:12Z Bike: i mean, in addition to that bt should have something. maybe the new api will
2021-02-03T22:26:14Z _death: right, it handler-case on condition
2021-02-03T22:30:16Z no-defun-allowed: Josh_2: that's only of any use for unconditional writes though, and it's of no use for exclusive access to mutable data.
2021-02-03T22:31:15Z _death: changing to (or warning error) does not help join-thread there for some reason.. but calling (stmx.lang::detect-thread-support) just works.. strange
2021-02-03T22:31:39Z _death: *evaluating in the repl
2021-02-03T22:32:53Z Josh_2: no-defun-allowed: yes
2021-02-03T22:32:54Z _death: ah, it could be the eval-always.. it does that while being compiled
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2021-02-03T22:35:59Z _death: it makes no sense to test for this while being compiled.. let me try :load-toplevel :execute
2021-02-03T22:37:56Z _death: much better.. loads fine and stmx.lang::*feature-list* looks good
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2021-02-03T22:46:27Z _death: hmm, but then it miscompiles start-thread etc. geez
2021-02-03T22:47:18Z _death: best to just remove that test and assume sanity :x
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2021-02-04T00:57:02Z red-dot: _death: Thanks. The list + uiop:native-namestring did the trick.
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2021-02-04T02:17:16Z routeveg: Lo all
2021-02-04T02:17:25Z no-defun-allowed: Hello routeveg.
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2021-02-04T02:17:56Z routeveg: oof, it's been a while since I came in here
2021-02-04T02:18:03Z routeveg: Are lisps still cool here?
2021-02-04T02:19:02Z routeveg: Real talk, i'm wondering about having something like emacs on an embedded platform. By embedded here, I mean perhaps 100k RAM. That kind of embedded.
2021-02-04T02:19:41Z routeveg: Micropython is a rather successful python compiler/repl/libraries for such platforms and it feels like there might be something to do there.
2021-02-04T02:19:44Z no-defun-allowed: It would be really weird if Lisp wasn't cool in #lisp. But I guess if it were COBOL and #cobol, the people there might have a different mindset of why they are there.
2021-02-04T02:20:29Z no-defun-allowed: There is uLisp for microcontrollers, which is something like a subset of Common Lisp with a unified function/variable namespace.
2021-02-04T02:20:30Z waleee-cl: that channel was on life support
2021-02-04T02:20:46Z waleee-cl: ~ less than 10 people
2021-02-04T02:21:30Z routeveg: ulisp does look like a good starting point for a more full-featured programming system
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2021-02-04T02:23:06Z routeveg: It does include a program editor, but it's a bit minimal. appears to be a line editor thing
2021-02-04T02:24:14Z no-defun-allowed: I recall ulisp had a structural editor. It'd probably hurt my head too much to use, as I'm only used to screen editors.
2021-02-04T02:24:48Z routeveg: I guess in order to be emacslike, you want a screen editor thing, and the ability to run commands, and to bind commands to keys.
2021-02-04T02:25:00Z routeveg: That doesn't sound massively difficult.
2021-02-04T02:27:04Z no-defun-allowed: Though I would attempt to generate a bytecode as quickly as possible, as that would allow for faster interpretation, and you could possibly save space on function definitions you don't care about.
2021-02-04T02:28:33Z terpri: there are schemes for microcontrollers as well (microscheme, picobit, probably more)
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2021-02-04T02:29:47Z routeveg: Ended up down a rabbit hole https://www.averylaird.com/programming/the%20text%20editor/2017/09/30/the-piece-table/
2021-02-04T02:29:56Z terpri: and https://www.cliki.net/embedded but the non-ulisp entries don't appear to be relevant
2021-02-04T02:31:18Z no-defun-allowed: In proper Common Lisp, you could use Flexichain <https://github.com/robert-strandh/Flexichain>. From memory, McCLIM uses flexichains for the editor gadgets.
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2021-02-04T02:34:59Z routeveg: Okay, thinking about memory usage and text editors and formats etc... are there any instances of 'whitespaceless' lisp editors?
2021-02-04T02:36:04Z routeveg: By which I mean, a source file is the same as an 'executable'. the editor controls indentation by the structure of the thing you're editing.
2021-02-04T02:36:24Z routeveg: You would need a kind of 'newline' atom that would be a NOP
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2021-02-04T02:37:41Z routeveg: One could see this as making the lisp reader interactive.
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2021-02-04T04:04:40Z pfdietz: SEDIT, from Interlisp?
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2021-02-04T04:17:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-04T08:29:15Z loke[m]: routeveg: as pfdietz said, the only one I know of is Interlisp.
2021-02-04T08:29:56Z loke[m]: Since this approach has been tried, and no one else followed it, it would seem as though it's probably not a great one.
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2021-02-04T12:50:23Z nij: Why does such progn block evaluate its body entries at different time? https://bpa.st/XPZQ
2021-02-04T12:50:35Z nij: I thought all of the arguments should be evaluated equally.
2021-02-04T12:51:09Z flip214: nij: left-to-right, recursively.
2021-02-04T12:51:26Z flip214: so the first PRINT with its arguments, then SLEEP, then the next PRINT.
2021-02-04T12:51:49Z flip214: cclhs 5.1.1.1
2021-02-04T12:51:53Z flip214: clhs 5.1.1.1
2021-02-04T12:51:53Z specbot: Evaluation of Subforms to Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_aaa.htm
2021-02-04T12:52:36Z nij: Well.. then it's super weird comparing to another observation.
2021-02-04T12:52:59Z nij: I have a function "suspend-user" that does essentially this: (uiop:run-program `("pkill" "-STOP" "-u" ,user))
2021-02-04T12:53:03Z flip214: ah, sorry
2021-02-04T12:53:07Z flip214: clhs 5.1.3
2021-02-04T12:53:07Z specbot: Treatment of Other Macros Based on SETF: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_ac.htm
2021-02-04T12:53:20Z flip214: "Evaluation of argument forms occurs in left-to-right order"
2021-02-04T12:53:23Z nij: As you can see, the shell command will suspend the user.
2021-02-04T12:54:05Z nij: Then when I do (progn (suspend-user "nij") (sleep 3) (cont-user "nij")), my user login instance first got suspended, but then nothing happened.
2021-02-04T12:54:09Z nij: It kept being suspended.
2021-02-04T12:56:13Z flip214: well, is the lisp running as the same user?
2021-02-04T12:56:21Z nij: yep!
2021-02-04T12:56:23Z nij: Oh
2021-02-04T12:56:37Z phoe: did you stop the process that was supposed to resume your session?
2021-02-04T12:56:57Z nij: I stopped the user..
2021-02-04T12:57:04Z nij: under which the process is running.
2021-02-04T12:57:12Z phoe: looks like it's not a progn problem then
2021-02-04T12:57:20Z nij: I see. That's why. Sorry for the dumb question.
2021-02-04T12:57:25Z phoe: :D
2021-02-04T12:57:52Z phoe: there's a lot of fun to be had when doing OS interaction
2021-02-04T12:58:43Z flip214 grumbles   ...but where is the L-t-R order in CLHS? apart from SETF and macros? 
2021-02-04T12:58:48Z nij: lemme make another system test
2021-02-04T12:58:52Z nij: (so i should log out brb!)
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2021-02-04T12:59:40Z Xach: flip214: 3.1.2.1.2.3?
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2021-02-04T13:06:14Z nij: It werked! Thanks folks :-)
2021-02-04T13:06:23Z nij: This kinda system commands.. how do you debug?
2021-02-04T13:06:33Z nij: At least.. I hope to be able to collect ALL outputs they generate
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2021-02-04T13:08:09Z flip214: Xach: yeah, thanks. google didn't return that for "left-to-right lisp evaluation clhs"
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2021-02-04T13:08:41Z Xach: flip214: every true lisper has the sections memorized
2021-02-04T13:10:03Z nij: m far from being that
2021-02-04T13:10:22Z nij: hmm lemme put it this way
2021-02-04T13:10:29Z nij: there are so many ways to call shell commands
2021-02-04T13:10:36Z nij: which one do you think is the most robust?
2021-02-04T13:10:39Z flip214: Xach: I'm sorry. I'll try harder next year.
2021-02-04T13:10:48Z nij: easiest to debug.. etc.
2021-02-04T13:10:55Z nij: flip214: new year resolution for 2022!
2021-02-04T13:11:12Z Xach: nij: i prefer to use sb-ext:run-program directly, as it provides the features i need for controlling processes and their output. it has a very good docstring and comments.
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2021-02-04T13:12:36Z nij: there's even sb-ext:run-program?! I should look into its difference with uiop:run-program.
2021-02-04T13:12:53Z Nilby: I would avoid using run-program if you can.
2021-02-04T13:13:08Z nij: Nilby: which one? and.. why so?
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2021-02-04T13:13:46Z Nilby: For example: (defun pkill (user signal) (mapcar (_ (when (equal user (nos:os-process-user _)) (uos:kill (nos:os-process-id _) signal))) (nos:process-list)))
2021-02-04T13:15:25Z Nilby: Then you can debug with the lisp debugger, it's faster, and you don't need external proramgs, etc.
2021-02-04T13:15:39Z nij: i see
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2021-02-04T13:15:53Z nij: so i gave to find the lisp equivalence of "pkill"
2021-02-04T13:15:57Z nij: s/gave/have/
2021-02-04T13:16:22Z nij: yeah challenge accepted. the goal is to elevated myself from bashism, completely.
2021-02-04T13:16:44Z nij: which is hard really.. e.g. how do you get rid of ffmpeg?
2021-02-04T13:17:40Z Nilby: It's hard at first, but then it gets easier. There does exists a CL FFI to libav, but it's sadly incomplete.
2021-02-04T13:17:52Z nij: :(
2021-02-04T13:17:56Z flip214: Nilby: where is nos from?
2021-02-04T13:18:15Z nij: imagination? that's just an eg
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2021-02-04T13:20:40Z Nilby: flip214: from my decaying Lisp castle, echoing with my rants of maddness, where few have ever ventured
2021-02-04T13:21:05Z nij: you have something like this here http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#sb_002dposix
2021-02-04T13:21:19Z nij: Nilby: why are you so mad?
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2021-02-04T13:22:30Z Nilby: nij: Good question. I think it must be the endless wasteland of software that has driven me mad.
2021-02-04T13:22:53Z nij: could you elaborate? im genuinely curious
2021-02-04T13:25:02Z Nilby: I find it very maddening when software doens't work the way I want it too. Especially when it's something that should have worked or has been working for 30 years or something.
2021-02-04T13:26:41Z nij: oh.. yeah :-(
2021-02-04T13:26:58Z Nilby: Like last time I upgraded emacs the cursor started blinking. WHy??!? It drives you crazy when you've stopped the cursor from blinking 100s of times over many years.
2021-02-04T13:27:02Z nij: Beyond a region when an individual can control, we seek for community.
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2021-02-04T13:27:29Z nij: And politics kicks in, which isn't always elegant and doesn't match our expectation.
2021-02-04T13:28:00Z nij: LOL your config had some problem?
2021-02-04T13:28:23Z Nilby: Form me, Lisp comes closest to giving the individual the most control.
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2021-02-04T13:30:39Z Nilby: But they spent over 10 years wrangling out the poltical minutia of Common Lisp before it could get to where it is.
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2021-02-04T13:31:39Z nij: Nilby: sorry my internet connection isn't the best now.
2021-02-04T13:31:45Z nij: Yeah I feel the same say.
2021-02-04T13:31:53Z nij: Why wouldn't people think so?
2021-02-04T13:32:27Z flip214: sb-unix:sc-nprocessors-onln gives me "84" ... which is an awful big number of processors!
2021-02-04T13:32:45Z flip214: and in fact it isn't, it's the sysconf constant to _request_ that data...  :-(
2021-02-04T13:33:14Z Nilby: flip214: that must be wrong
2021-02-04T13:36:27Z Nilby: flip214: i mean you're right about how it's wrong
2021-02-04T13:36:36Z semz: How does CFFI interact with save-lisp-and-die type releases? If I define a library, use (use-foreign-library libfoo) at the top level and then save-lisp-and-die, is the resulting executable tied in some way to what I have on my system? This would be undesirable e.g. for graphics.
2021-02-04T13:38:43Z semz: If no, to what degree can I rely on that? If yes, how'd I get around that? Obviously I don't want to ship e.g. my graphics drivers that are useless to others.
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2021-02-04T13:44:13Z Bike: sbcl mentions how it works here, i think http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Loading-Shared-Object-Files
2021-02-04T13:44:29Z Bike: on sbcl. dunno about other implementations
2021-02-04T13:44:46Z jackdaniel: the safest way is to have init/close function pair
2021-02-04T13:44:54Z jackdaniel: the first opens libraries, the second closes them
2021-02-04T13:45:09Z jackdaniel: so before saving the image, close all libraries
2021-02-04T13:45:29Z jackdaniel: and when starting, initialize them (I'm sure there is a prologue code option for save-lisp-and-die)
2021-02-04T13:45:38Z jackdaniel: then, if you depend on say libgl, it will be loaded anew
2021-02-04T13:45:53Z jackdaniel: (of course it must be present on the target system)
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2021-02-04T13:57:04Z semz: Oh hm. Yeah, that would work and be much less of a headache than I expected.
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2021-02-04T14:02:23Z Nilby: You know debugging's going to be rough when: "%PRIMITIVE HALT called; the party is over."
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2021-02-04T14:17:57Z phoe: oof
2021-02-04T14:26:02Z logand: does somebody know glv2 maintainer of ironclad?
2021-02-04T14:26:59Z phoe: the second line of https://github.com/sharplispers/ironclad/commit/f3d4b38b0f3db290ed95b5a24d235cd7c03ddeb4.patch has relevant contact info
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2021-02-04T14:32:09Z logand: phoe: i was hoping i could reach him on irc
2021-02-04T14:34:06Z Xach: not all interesting lispers use IRC
2021-02-04T14:35:06Z flip214: and not all on IRC are interesting
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2021-02-04T14:52:31Z jackdaniel: and not all uninteresting are on irc ;)
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2021-02-04T15:10:43Z edgar-rft: but it might be of interest if there are uninteresting people having interesting interests on irc
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2021-02-04T17:00:41Z jmercouris: I have a function that returns either 0 or some value
2021-02-04T17:00:44Z jmercouris: I want to divide by this value
2021-02-04T17:00:52Z jmercouris: what should I do, handler case? some sort of (ceiling magic
2021-02-04T17:00:59Z jmercouris: what would be the most idiomatic way to show this?
2021-02-04T17:01:06Z jmercouris: s/ceiling/max
2021-02-04T17:01:59Z beach: What do you want the division to accomplish when 0 is returned?
2021-02-04T17:02:01Z beach: Error?
2021-02-04T17:02:03Z jackdaniel: (let ((divider (foo))) (if (zerop divider) (* value 100) (/ value divider))
2021-02-04T17:02:22Z jmercouris: I don't want an error, it is a network error that results in 0
2021-02-04T17:02:28Z jmercouris: basically I would like to just show the whole number
2021-02-04T17:02:32Z jmercouris: which is why I was leaning towards max
2021-02-04T17:02:36Z jmercouris: just not sure if that is a good convention
2021-02-04T17:02:52Z beach: Sure, (max (f ...) 1)
2021-02-04T17:02:59Z frodef: jmercouris: maybe your (network) function should signal an error rather than return 0?
2021-02-04T17:03:06Z jmercouris: not my network function
2021-02-04T17:03:23Z jmercouris: otherwise, i would agree with that
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2021-02-04T17:03:37Z frodef: jmercouris: then make it yours by a wrapper function?
2021-02-04T17:03:47Z jmercouris: ... maybe another time :-D
2021-02-04T17:03:54Z jackdaniel: (defun my-network-function (&rest args) (let ((result (apply #'their-network-function args))) (if (zerop result) (error "hi!") result))
2021-02-04T17:04:24Z jmercouris: a very simple pattern and good suggestion, I will keep in mind
2021-02-04T17:04:28Z jmercouris: I didn't think to just wrap it
2021-02-04T17:04:31Z jmercouris: so easily
2021-02-04T17:04:37Z jmercouris: I was imagining something far more convoluted
2021-02-04T17:05:58Z jackdaniel: For experienced Lisp programmer parens are not visible and the code is trivial (because only the remaining 1% of it *is* visible to them)
2021-02-04T17:07:23Z frodef: you could also make a generic wrapper, if there are more library functions like that.. (defun nonzero (x &rest error-designator) (if (eql 0 x) (apply 'error error-designator) x))
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2021-02-04T17:08:46Z jackdaniel: of course a correct approach to both wrappers is to anticipate multiple values
2021-02-04T17:09:08Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: what are you talking about? who said anything about parens?
2021-02-04T17:09:33Z jackdaniel: I was joking about how common lisp programs are made of 99% parens
2021-02-04T17:09:37Z jackdaniel: let me find the inspiration
2021-02-04T17:09:42Z jackdaniel: on cliki
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2021-02-04T17:10:51Z frodef: jackdaniel: doesn't make much sense to me to anticipate multiple values from something that signals an error by returning zero... :)
2021-02-04T17:10:52Z jackdaniel: there was a joke there that evil hackers stole 80% of the reminder of the source code in nasa
2021-02-04T17:11:08Z jackdaniel: and that the whole file was ")))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))"
2021-02-04T17:11:19Z jmercouris: lol
2021-02-04T17:12:07Z jackdaniel: frodef: the right thing something something ;)
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2021-02-04T23:14:08Z Josh_2: How do I define a generic function where methods are called from least specific to most? rather than the default being most to least
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2021-02-04T23:17:07Z mfiano: (:method-combination ... :most-specific-last)
2021-02-04T23:17:44Z Josh_2: Thanks
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2021-02-04T23:43:44Z Xach: Josh_2: one of the explicit examples in practical common lisp!
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2021-02-05T00:14:23Z Josh_2: Xach: It's been quite a while since I've looked at that chapter in PCL, I ended up looking in OO in CL by Sonja Keene
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2021-02-05T01:05:11Z Josh_2: If I want to use (call-next-method) in primary methods and :most-specific-last do I have to define my own method combination?
2021-02-05T01:06:27Z Bike: do you want standard method combination or something else?
2021-02-05T01:08:25Z Josh_2: Standard should work
2021-02-05T01:09:01Z Bike: i don't think you can reverse the order in standard method combination, so i suppose you would need your own combination indeed.
2021-02-05T01:09:45Z Josh_2: oh boy
2021-02-05T01:09:53Z Josh_2: or would also work
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2021-02-05T01:11:10Z Bike: the reason call-next-method doesn't work in primary methods of the OR combination is that all the methods are involved without it anyway
2021-02-05T01:11:29Z Bike: e.g. if A is a subclass of B and they both have methods, you just have (or a-method b-method) or (or b-method a-method), so what would call-next-method be good for?
2021-02-05T01:14:45Z Josh_2: well if b-method takes a while then this is useful
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2021-02-05T01:15:10Z Bike: huh?
2021-02-05T01:15:19Z Bike: i mean, you can choose which order you want, but that doesn't involve call-next-method.
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2021-02-05T01:16:37Z Bike: can you describe what behavior you want exactly?
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2021-02-05T01:18:19Z Josh_2: to call the least specific method first, if non nil then return this, otherwise keep calling until reaching most specific
2021-02-05T01:18:28Z mfiano: primary or auxillary?
2021-02-05T01:18:32Z Josh_2: primary
2021-02-05T01:18:57Z mfiano: Good. Changing the order in standard combination will not affect the aux methods
2021-02-05T01:20:09Z mfiano: Just write some dummy code and see if it behaves how you want? If not, come back and revise your question
2021-02-05T01:20:28Z mfiano: and we'll have code to see what you are doing and what you expect
2021-02-05T01:20:36Z Bike: in that case i don't see why you need call next method at all. just use the OR combination with :most-specific-last
2021-02-05T01:20:55Z Bike: it works exactly how you described.
2021-02-05T01:21:30Z Josh_2: That is what I assumed
2021-02-05T01:21:46Z Josh_2: I will just make sure that it isn't something else
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2021-02-05T01:49:41Z Josh_2: Okay it worked
2021-02-05T01:49:43Z Josh_2: Thanks Bike
2021-02-05T01:51:10Z Bike: mhm
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2021-02-05T02:00:56Z Josh_2: Wasn't a problem due to method combinations etc I just wasnt getting a non nil val when I expected it, I sorted that and all is good
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2021-02-05T03:47:09Z asarch: How could I print "2021-02-01" instead of "2021-2-1"? I mean, the leading 0s
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2021-02-05T03:47:38Z no-defun-allowed: (format nil "~2,'0d" 1) => "01"
2021-02-05T03:47:51Z asarch: Thank you!
2021-02-05T03:47:54Z asarch: Thank you very much!
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2021-02-05T04:09:55Z dbotton: I though I would share a snap shot of my latest demo a list IDE - https://rabbibotton.github.io/images/clog-demo3.png
2021-02-05T04:10:42Z dbotton: I will flesh out more of it, but then will start on the visual tools I have planned
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2021-02-05T04:20:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-05T08:14:16Z Nilby: Is there a recommended way to iterate over generic sequences in parallel [not multi-threaded] ? By generic I mean at least something that could be a list or vector.
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2021-02-05T08:16:34Z jdz: Nilby: MAP.
2021-02-05T08:17:03Z no-defun-allowed: You can use (map 'nil (lambda (element) ...) sequences ...) - replace 'nil with a sequence type specifier if it should return another sequence from the value returned by the function.
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2021-02-05T08:17:27Z no-defun-allowed: e.g. (map 'vector #'+ #(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
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2021-02-05T08:20:04Z Nilby: Thanks. I can't believe I didn't know that.
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2021-02-05T08:22:09Z phoe:  /30
2021-02-05T08:22:11Z phoe: oop
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2021-02-05T08:25:29Z Alfr: Nilby, I'm wondering what "in parallel" means to you, as when you only have one thread you're only going to do one computation at any given time. (Ignoring the costly variation of forking and then communicating back a result.)
2021-02-05T08:27:14Z no-defun-allowed: You would step the elements of the sequences in parallel.
2021-02-05T08:27:42Z Nilby: Alfr: Right. I just wanted to be clear about the word parallel.
2021-02-05T08:28:07Z no-defun-allowed: e.g (map 'list f a b) = (list (funcall f (elt a 0) (elt b 0)) (funcall f (elt a 1) (elt b 1)) ...)
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2021-02-05T08:28:24Z Alfr: Oh, never thought of this interpretation.
2021-02-05T08:28:27Z Alfr: Thanks. :)
2021-02-05T08:29:24Z Nilby: Although I think things like let and psetq leave the possibility of concurency.
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2021-02-05T08:30:20Z Nilby: no-defun-allowed: I hope it doesn't really use elt on lists.
2021-02-05T08:30:50Z no-defun-allowed: The forms that provide values in LET and PSETQ could have side effects, and thus would have to be evaluated in series to obey Common Lisp semantics. But I think lparallel has some kind of `plet` which also explicates data dependencies.
2021-02-05T08:31:39Z no-defun-allowed: Nilby: No, probably not. But it is indicative of what MAP will return.
2021-02-05T08:32:20Z Nilby: Hmmm. But let and psetq can at least re-order the evaluation.
2021-02-05T08:33:15Z Nilby: maybe? I don't really know
2021-02-05T08:33:20Z no-defun-allowed: Not generally - (let ((a ...)) (let ((b (setf a ...)) (c a)) ...) although obtuse, cannot be reordered.
2021-02-05T08:33:55Z no-defun-allowed: clhs let
2021-02-05T08:33:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2021-02-05T08:34:08Z no-defun-allowed: "The form [elided] first evaluates the expressions init-form-1, init-form-2, and so on, in that order, saving the resulting values."
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2021-02-05T08:36:58Z Nilby: Hmmm. It does say "in that order". I wonder if compilers can reorder or vectorize if they know there's no side effects.
2021-02-05T08:37:52Z no-defun-allowed: I don't see why not.
2021-02-05T08:38:13Z Nilby: except for things like cache timing attacks :o
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2021-02-05T09:58:02Z daphnis: is there any nice technique for avoiding a slightly shorter first line in docstrings?
2021-02-05T10:02:23Z beach: Why would there be a shorter first line?
2021-02-05T10:02:35Z beach: I recommend you make every line not too wide.
2021-02-05T10:03:29Z beach: And you can make them look nice(r) by using #.(format nil "First line ... ~@<newline>    Second line...~@...")
2021-02-05T10:03:54Z beach: That way, you can align the leftmost character of each line.
2021-02-05T10:04:13Z beach: So you get the entire docstring indented, but you have to do the indentation "manually".
2021-02-05T10:04:20Z daphnis: because it will be automatically indented
2021-02-05T10:04:38Z beach: I don't understand.
2021-02-05T10:06:16Z Nilby: daphnis: I think you just have to accept that good docstring output must be done by something that isn't just write-string. Like it depends on the width of your window too.
2021-02-05T10:06:24Z daphnis: if you use emacs auto-fill, then if a docstrings begin with more indentation than in subsequent lines, the first will be shorter
2021-02-05T10:07:12Z beach: Yes, Emacs is not doing a good job with documentation strings.
2021-02-05T10:07:13Z Nilby: I output docstrings with a thing that trys to fill paragraphs to the window width.
2021-02-05T10:07:20Z heisig: I fully agree with daphnis.  Since the first line of a docstring of something like a DEFUN starts with '  "'.  it is three characters shorter than each subsequent line.  That is mildly annoying.
2021-02-05T10:09:11Z Nilby: Or one do something like: https://github.com/jfm3/boxen
2021-02-05T10:10:11Z heisig: The best solution I could imagine is to teach Emacs to make the first line slightly longer when executing 'fill-paragraph' in such a comment.
2021-02-05T10:11:53Z daphnis: it also seems that, in defgeneric, all lines are indented ..
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2021-02-05T10:15:55Z Nilby: Also a simple word justification function is a one-liner in CL.
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2021-02-05T10:16:58Z Nilby: a problem is you have to pick a width of output
2021-02-05T10:17:48Z daphnis: what's the one-liner?
2021-02-05T10:21:28Z Nilby: [excercise left to the reader]
2021-02-05T10:21:53Z Nilby: :) just kidding, you something like: (format t "~{~<~%~1,80:;~a~> ~}" (split-sequence #\space string))
2021-02-05T10:22:29Z Nilby: or slightly longer: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2277#2277
2021-02-05T10:23:48Z daphnis: thanks!
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2021-02-05T10:23:50Z Nilby: i guess it does depend on split-sequence or ppcre:split
2021-02-05T10:24:28Z mfiano: or uiop
2021-02-05T10:24:31Z Nilby: I don't recommend doing it that way in production, since it's slow.
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2021-02-05T10:27:03Z daphnis: is there nothing like "\<newline> that doesn't actually put a newline into the string?
2021-02-05T10:27:43Z mfiano: ~<newline>
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2021-02-05T10:28:57Z daphnis: that seems to put a ~ and a newline into it
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2021-02-05T10:29:52Z flip214: daphnis: you might want to use CL-INTERPOL
2021-02-05T10:30:04Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/6d4c9e0e50b899fd5629668e815106e4
2021-02-05T10:30:07Z pve: daphnis: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2279
2021-02-05T10:30:21Z Nilby: or a faster version without needing a spliter https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2278#2278
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2021-02-05T10:30:29Z pve: daphnis: you could use that while waiting for a proper solution :)
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2021-02-05T10:32:19Z Nilby: The real problem is people write docstrings in a quirky way that sometimes could be word filled, but sometimes expects fixed-width pre-formmated spacing.
2021-02-05T10:32:36Z daphnis: mfiano: oh i see, i didn't realize you meant inside format
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2021-02-05T10:37:49Z daphnis: but how do i get the argument to defgeneric's :documentation evaluated?
2021-02-05T10:38:05Z beach: I think I told you that.
2021-02-05T10:38:10Z beach: #.(format ...)
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2021-02-05T10:39:31Z daphnis: ah, thanks
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2021-02-05T10:39:36Z mfiano: Also, there's #'(setf documentation)
2021-02-05T10:40:33Z beach: That doesn't solve the layout problem, but it solves the problem that the docstring is noise to the person reading the code.
2021-02-05T10:40:39Z mfiano: That is, documentation for defgeneric need not be inside defgeneric.
2021-02-05T10:41:04Z beach: And it really shouldn't be.
2021-02-05T10:42:02Z beach: And, since the docstring to the person reading the code, there is a tendency to make docstrings (too) short, which kind of defeats the purpose.
2021-02-05T10:42:32Z beach: My favorite one is from SBCL (DOCUMENTATION 'CAR 'FUNCTION)
2021-02-05T10:42:43Z beach: "Return the 1st object in a list."
2021-02-05T10:47:36Z Nilby: Sadly the ratio of missing docstrings even in the abundant sbcl, is about .44
2021-02-05T10:49:04Z beach: How did you compute that?  I mean, not every function or class or whatever requires one.  If the code is relevant only to the person reading it, and is not part of some protocol, there is no particular reason to write a docstring.  A comment is then more relevant.
2021-02-05T10:50:47Z Nilby: I'm not talking about the implementation code, just the exported symbols from the CL package.
2021-02-05T10:51:06Z beach: OK, that's definitely relevant.
2021-02-05T10:51:21Z Nilby: I wrote a thingy to calculate it.
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2021-02-05T10:51:52Z Nilby: I've been slowly working on a package to add any missing docstrings to any implementation.
2021-02-05T10:52:00Z beach: Interestingly, many such docstrings should be different from the wording of the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
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2021-02-05T10:52:35Z Nilby: Yes. Also the copyright issue is troublesome.
2021-02-05T10:53:05Z beach: Because a lot of behavior is undefined by the standard, but defined by the implementation, so the documentation should document the real behavior.
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2021-02-05T10:53:34Z Nilby: I think the ratio of .44 is quite admirable as these things go.
2021-02-05T10:53:39Z mfiano: Lots of errata too, like the infamous PROG2.
2021-02-05T10:54:35Z Nilby: None of the progs have docstring in sbcl ):
2021-02-05T10:55:07Z Nilby: oops progn does
2021-02-05T10:55:11Z mfiano: multiple-value-prog1 does too
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2021-02-05T11:02:38Z beach: I don't think that CAR needs a docstring, since it is well defined by the standard, but if it has one, it should at least be correct, and it should probably contain information about what subtype of TYPE-ERROR is signaled.
2021-02-05T11:03:58Z flip214: beach: I think that the type-error should be seen by a SSC and returned via the derived type information
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2021-02-05T11:04:13Z beach: AREF on the other hand has lots of undefined behavior that justifies a documentation string.
2021-02-05T11:04:41Z beach: flip214: I don't understand what that means.  Could you elaborate?
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2021-02-05T11:08:02Z flip214: beach: If you (defun foo (x) (1+ (round x)))
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2021-02-05T11:08:17Z flip214: then sbcl can give you    Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES INTEGER &OPTIONAL))
2021-02-05T11:08:44Z beach: flip214: What I meant was that, if someone wants to write SBCL-specific code, and that someone wants to handle the error, it should be documented that (say) SB-CAR-WAS-GIVEN-A-NON-LIST is the error signaled.
2021-02-05T11:09:12Z flip214: so the return value is automatically derived. similarly, possible errors could be seen and listed here.
2021-02-05T11:09:47Z beach: How would that look in this case?
2021-02-05T11:10:05Z beach: And what would be the form to evaluate to see it?
2021-02-05T11:10:09Z flip214: yeah, I mean that the compiler might be able to list potential conditions (or at least errors) that are signalled.
2021-02-05T11:10:57Z beach: Is that enough though?
2021-02-05T11:11:11Z beach: Different error types could be signaled in different situations.
2021-02-05T11:11:27Z beach: Then you would have to make the error type name really explicit.
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2021-02-05T11:12:44Z flip214: beach: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/a1dc7ddb/ is what I get via vlime (swank) right now.
2021-02-05T11:12:56Z flip214: it could include an additional line about ERROR or so.
2021-02-05T11:13:27Z flip214: perhaps "may signal: SB-CAR-WAS-GIVEN-A-NON-LIST, NOT-A-NUMBER, ..."
2021-02-05T11:13:46Z flip214: by incorporating the information of functions called in there as well...
2021-02-05T11:13:46Z beach: Oh, for DESCRIBE?
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2021-02-05T11:13:55Z flip214: though that might become a long list
2021-02-05T11:14:10Z flip214: yeah, is that a bad idea?
2021-02-05T11:14:36Z beach: The commercial vendors would not agree to give the function lambda expression for their code.
2021-02-05T11:15:39Z flip214: that's just because I evaluated it directly... when compiling a source location (or nothing) might be given, depending on the DEBUG quality I guess
2021-02-05T11:16:18Z beach: But that is where the information is given that you said was generated automatically.
2021-02-05T11:16:48Z Nilby: but you can't know all errors a thing might signal
2021-02-05T11:17:29Z beach: Sure, that's probably undecidable in general.
2021-02-05T11:18:22Z beach: My point is: If I want to find out what error type CAR signals when given a non-list, what form should I type to get that information.
2021-02-05T11:19:06Z beach: I argued that it should be (DOCUMENTATION 'CAR 'FUNCTION), and flip214 argued that i could write (DESCRIBE 'CAR) or something like that.
2021-02-05T11:20:48Z beach: Either way, I think that the information must be given manually.
2021-02-05T11:21:33Z Nilby: I like the documentation vs. the describe which doesn't seem very feasible. But I do like describe to figure out as much as possible.
2021-02-05T11:22:00Z Alfr: beach, I'd argue for (describe #'car); documentation should only give you that doc string.
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2021-02-05T11:22:47Z beach: Alfr: What docstring?
2021-02-05T11:23:25Z Alfr: That cryptic "Return the 1st object in a list." mentioned above.
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2021-02-05T11:23:34Z beach: Alfr: But it's wrong!
2021-02-05T11:23:54Z beach: If given NIL, then it is not returning the first element of the list, because there is no such element.
2021-02-05T11:24:11Z beach: And if it is given a non-list, it doesn't specify what happens.
2021-02-05T11:25:19Z Alfr: beach, I mean as to /what/ (documentation 'car 'function) should return, not whether sbcl's docstring for car is correct.
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2021-02-05T11:27:49Z beach: It is an interesting question though, how the responsibility should be divided between DOCUMENTATION and DESCRIBE.  I see DESCRIBE as being used mainly for objects that don't have documentation associated with them, like ordinary instances of standard classes.
2021-02-05T11:29:00Z beach: And for functions, I see no profound reason why the errors it may signal should be omitted from the documentation string.
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2021-02-05T11:30:25Z Alfr: Or put it an other way, if you want additional information an implementation may provide, you should consult DESCRIBE. For example DEFUN arranges to set (documentation 'foo 'function) to documentation if it is provided.
2021-02-05T11:31:47Z Alfr: So a program may depend on them being unchanged (or unavailable).
2021-02-05T11:34:42Z flip214: beach: well, how about an (documentation 'car 'derived-conditions) or similar? could be integrated in IDEs that way.
2021-02-05T11:34:49Z Nilby: I think for most functions even the author of the function doesn't not know what errors something can signal, only what is explicitly signaled for useful purposes.
2021-02-05T11:36:34Z Nilby: s/not//
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2021-02-05T11:45:10Z flip214: that's why I propose that the compiler keeps track as good as possible
2021-02-05T12:00:43Z mrios22: What's the best way to upgrade to emacs27 if I'm using ubuntu? (actually mint linux?)
2021-02-05T12:01:20Z flip214 grumbles "apt-get install neovim"
2021-02-05T12:01:36Z mrios22: Sorry, wrong IRC!
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2021-02-05T12:01:49Z mrios22: should have been #emacs
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2021-02-05T12:16:57Z engblom: flip214: Do you use neovim for Lisp?
2021-02-05T12:18:26Z Nilby: I'm ready for this error tracking compiler. https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2280#2280
2021-02-05T12:20:05Z no-defun-allowed: (make-condition <random symbol>) might work better.
2021-02-05T12:20:36Z phoe: make-instance on a condition class is not portable in theory but is going to work on all implementations
2021-02-05T12:24:19Z v3ga: so does common lisp have a library similar to this? https://www.hugsql.org/
2021-02-05T12:24:51Z phoe: I have no idea what exactly it does, but I used cl-yesql + postmodern back in the day
2021-02-05T12:24:54Z phoe: and I liked it
2021-02-05T12:24:54Z v3ga: also would you say i'm being foolish by wanting to write sql by hand opposed to cl-sql?
2021-02-05T12:26:55Z v3ga: phoe: that will do.  hugsql seems to have been inspired by yesql. I figured it was originally from CL.    My entry to coding was ruby so since then i've liked getting an understanding of whats really taking place... *dealing with actual sql for one*
2021-02-05T12:27:24Z phoe: cl-yesql came from yesql which is a clojure library
2021-02-05T12:27:49Z v3ga: ahh reverse....well still cool. thats exactly what I want for now
2021-02-05T12:29:59Z Nilby: v3ga: you can write sql by hand even with clsql, but if you use lispy syntax it might even work on multiple backends
2021-02-05T12:31:19Z Nilby: with clsql i had production code that worked on oracle, ms sql server, mysql, and postgresql
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2021-02-05T12:33:52Z v3ga: Nilby: I see...well maybe i'll give it a whirl since i'm already familiar with yesql but CLs OO system is new.  I'm reading an article here...is the elephant library still used? https://common-lisp.net/project/elephant/
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2021-02-05T12:38:53Z Nilby: I'm not a fan of object-relational mapping things because I had to be very picky about performace in big databases. I did my own objects.
2021-02-05T12:40:38Z v3ga: Nilby: gotcha, that's kind of what i'm tip toeing around. Hmm, ok i'm going to toy around a bit more with it.
2021-02-05T12:41:56Z jmercouris: so I've got this setter that I wrote
2021-02-05T12:42:08Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/58BXQ6TZP
2021-02-05T12:42:18Z jmercouris: can I add the checking for the percentage as a specialization?
2021-02-05T12:42:45Z jmercouris: E.G. can I specify within the signature of the method that percentage should be between 0 and 100?
2021-02-05T12:43:23Z no-defun-allowed: No, but I think it should be an assertion instead.
2021-02-05T12:43:52Z jmercouris: no-defun-allowed: why?
2021-02-05T12:44:06Z no-defun-allowed: Trying to announce a percentage of -5% or 101% is an error - it makes no sense.
2021-02-05T12:44:14Z jmercouris: that's true
2021-02-05T12:44:20Z jmercouris: and so you think i should signal an error
2021-02-05T12:44:23Z jmercouris: it makes sense, yes
2021-02-05T12:44:41Z jmercouris: maybe I should make use of conditions and errors and signals more than I do
2021-02-05T12:44:45Z no-defun-allowed: But also, there aren't classes for arbitrary number ranges.
2021-02-05T12:44:52Z phoe: (check-type percentage (real 0 100)) is the best I think
2021-02-05T12:45:19Z jmercouris: no-defun-allowed: you can specify more than classes
2021-02-05T12:45:34Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, eql specializers too, but that's it.
2021-02-05T12:45:36Z jmercouris: phoe: ah, didn't think of check-type
2021-02-05T12:45:38Z Alfr: jmercouris, also you can't discriminate on types only classes.
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2021-02-05T12:45:47Z jmercouris: I'm going to chain 100 eql statements :-D
2021-02-05T12:45:47Z jackdaniel: you may eql-specialize each number between 0 and 100
2021-02-05T12:45:53Z jmercouris: exactly
2021-02-05T12:46:05Z jackdaniel: don't forget about floats
2021-02-05T12:46:06Z jackdaniel: and ratios
2021-02-05T12:46:07Z phoe: as long as your percentages are integers, sure, I guess... but that'll slow the dispatch a bit
2021-02-05T12:46:10Z phoe: oh
2021-02-05T12:46:16Z jmercouris: it's a joke, I'm not going to do it
2021-02-05T12:46:19Z Alfr: no-defun-allowed, write once, read never?
2021-02-05T12:46:28Z jmercouris: I believe in read only memory
2021-02-05T12:46:29Z phoe: more like write once, debug forever
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2021-02-05T12:46:49Z jmercouris: sorry I mean write only memory
2021-02-05T12:46:52Z jmercouris: WOMs in other words
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2021-02-05T12:49:42Z mfiano: You could use filtered-functions to define your own dispatcher, but I wouldn't do that for this.
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2021-02-05T12:51:12Z jmercouris: I think I'm going to go with no-defun-allowed approach
2021-02-05T12:52:05Z no-defun-allowed hopes "think" isn't used in a way that suggests one has reasons to consider eql specialisation on every real between 0 and 100.
2021-02-05T12:52:43Z jmercouris: that's exactly what I'm going to do, I'm even going to write a macro for it /s
2021-02-05T12:53:01Z jmercouris: wonder why my emacs highlights check-type in red
2021-02-05T12:53:06Z jackdaniel: to be honest I would be seriously impressed if someone had eql specialized every real between two different numbers
2021-02-05T12:53:34Z phoe: brb, let me iterate through all the doubles
2021-02-05T12:53:37Z jackdaniel: because it may signal an error?
2021-02-05T12:53:39Z no-defun-allowed: check-* does assertions, much like assert.
2021-02-05T12:54:03Z jmercouris: just about anything might signal an error
2021-02-05T12:54:13Z Alfr: jmercouris, you can't rationals are reals, thus you won't get away with finitely many eqls.
2021-02-05T12:54:27Z jmercouris: Alfr: who said anything about a finite amount of EQs?
2021-02-05T12:54:33Z jmercouris: I never claimed my program would be halting
2021-02-05T12:55:16Z jmercouris: I don't know why we always get into these absurd conversations on this channel
2021-02-05T12:55:24Z Alfr: You'll be alright then, if it never finishes generating code, faulty code will never run. :D
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2021-02-05T12:55:33Z jmercouris: :-D
2021-02-05T12:55:49Z no-defun-allowed: Very funny. Now, do signal when you get silly values, and don't silently drop them, letting the caller get away with it.
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2021-02-05T12:57:00Z Nilby: absolute lisp power move /s
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2021-02-05T13:01:11Z no-defun-allowed: Not even that, failing when the first invariant is broken would give you the best idea of what caused your problems.
2021-02-05T13:01:26Z jmercouris: sometimes we wish to silently fail
2021-02-05T13:01:45Z jmercouris: objective-c taught me that is very powerful
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2021-02-05T13:04:19Z no-defun-allowed: I forgot the quote by Appel from some compiler book, but it went like "and the man who murdered his parents pleaded for mercy, as he was an orphan."
2021-02-05T13:06:10Z jmercouris: a list of type specifiers anywhere?
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2021-02-05T13:08:45Z no-defun-allowed: One I do remember is "rather than having the software discover its own errors in a benign way, the discovery of such errors is left to the FAA or a Congressional committee."
2021-02-05T13:09:08Z no-defun-allowed: Though you have two problems if your web browser code is doing life critical stuff now.
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2021-02-05T13:13:52Z jmercouris: that's a lot of responsibility for one little browser
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2021-02-05T13:13:55Z jmercouris: :'(
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2021-02-05T13:21:33Z no-defun-allowed: Well, you get the idea. If you can't fix it, don't pretend it's okay.
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2021-02-05T13:23:20Z jmercouris: I don't think that is an absolute rule
2021-02-05T13:23:36Z jmercouris: there are many fault-tolerant systems that must deal with failure by often ignoring it
2021-02-05T13:23:58Z jmercouris: I'm not making aerospace equipment here, I'm making a program that should stay running and DWIM without intervention as often as possible
2021-02-05T13:25:07Z no-defun-allowed: The user isn't going to be setting progress bar values though - but you could clamp to [0%, 100%] in case someone gives you a bogus value.
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2021-02-05T13:27:48Z jmercouris: that is also achieved by the when
2021-02-05T13:28:48Z no-defun-allowed: Is it? You wouldn't update at all then.
2021-02-05T13:29:04Z jmercouris: I see
2021-02-05T13:29:09Z jmercouris: so if they give you a value of what, 200, you go to 100?
2021-02-05T13:29:23Z phoe: I'd assume so
2021-02-05T13:29:37Z no-defun-allowed: That's the best "not an error" interpretation I can think of.
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2021-02-05T13:31:05Z phoe: optionally if the user gives you #C(70 70) then the loading bar goes upwards at a 45° angle
2021-02-05T13:31:16Z jmercouris: Ah, yes
2021-02-05T13:31:18Z jmercouris: :-D
2021-02-05T13:31:46Z jmercouris: I love those volume set competitions on programmer humor
2021-02-05T13:31:53Z jackdaniel: heretic, Y grows downward :c
2021-02-05T13:32:21Z Alfr: That's not sane, it will paper over some erroneous input and make you later hunt for errors in the wrong part of your program: The progress indicator obviously gets it right, the problem must certainly occur later ...
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2021-02-05T13:33:00Z jmercouris: for example: https://gfycat.com/leadingcrazyfalcon
2021-02-05T13:33:10Z no-defun-allowed: I could somehow imagine getting 100% + ε from some weird rounding error.
2021-02-05T13:33:23Z Nilby: (loop for s being the symbols in :cl do (when (fboundp s) (defun s (&rest a) (ignore-errors (ap
2021-02-05T13:33:24Z Nilby: ply s a)))))
2021-02-05T13:33:36Z Nilby: .lisprc
2021-02-05T13:34:01Z Nilby: errors all gone
2021-02-05T13:34:04Z no-defun-allowed: What is that supposed to do?
2021-02-05T13:34:05Z jmercouris: Ah, so simple!
2021-02-05T13:34:16Z jmercouris: wraps all functions in cl
2021-02-05T13:34:32Z jmercouris: no-defun-allowed: in case you were asking me, it is a volume slider, here are some more: https://thenextweb.com/shareables/2017/06/09/bored-programmers-volume-slider-reddit/
2021-02-05T13:34:36Z no-defun-allowed: (defun s (...) ...)?
2021-02-05T13:34:42Z Nilby: ugh, I wrote more joke code than real code today
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2021-02-05T13:35:07Z no-defun-allowed: You do...write Common Lisp code, right? S isn't evaluated there.
2021-02-05T13:35:16Z jmercouris: ... don't take it so seriously
2021-02-05T13:35:38Z jmercouris: for all you know, he has a reader macro that magically makes it work
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2021-02-05T13:36:35Z semz: no-defun-allowed: i'd argue that using floats (and summing them up at that, otherwise you'd stay below 100%) for that is an error in itself
2021-02-05T13:37:00Z semz: regrettably common error, but CL has rationals
2021-02-05T13:37:03Z phoe: wait til you add nans to the picture
2021-02-05T13:37:13Z Nilby: now I made it work and trashed my image after unlocking :cl
2021-02-05T13:37:30Z jmercouris: trashed your image? no, you've made a work of art
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2021-02-05T13:38:45Z Nilby: I like to play "survive this sexp"
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2021-02-05T14:17:20Z ldb: good evening
2021-02-05T14:17:40Z VincentVega: Out of curiosity, is there a way to modify class definition w/out reevaluating the actual definition? Say, add a slot to a class, e.g. have a restart that says class slot is missing and you can just add it on the spot, would that sort of thing require a lot of trickery? I mean, what are the options besides trying to keep the original code manually?
2021-02-05T14:19:10Z Bike: you could use mop ensure-class instead, probably
2021-02-05T14:20:06Z Bike: you can get all the properties of the class out of the class itself (e.g. mop:class-direct-slots), add to them, and then reinitialize the class with the additions
2021-02-05T14:20:45Z jmercouris: Bike: that is not foolproof, there are all sorts of edge cases
2021-02-05T14:20:49Z jmercouris: believe me, I have tried
2021-02-05T14:20:58Z Bike: i did not mean to imply that this was foolproof.
2021-02-05T14:21:01Z Bike: cos it definitely ain't
2021-02-05T14:21:19Z Bike: still, i don't see why it wouldn't work in principle
2021-02-05T14:22:09Z VincentVega: Bike: Interesting.
2021-02-05T14:22:48Z ldb: why not just check statically
2021-02-05T14:23:03Z VincentVega: jmercouris: if not a bother, any off-the-bat examples of where that could fail?
2021-02-05T14:23:06Z Bike: for this particular case i guess you would just have a slot-missing method
2021-02-05T14:23:23Z jmercouris: VincentVega: I don't remember it was some SBCL specific errors
2021-02-05T14:23:34Z jmercouris: which of course extended to other implementations in unique ways..
2021-02-05T14:24:06Z VincentVega: jmercouris: alright, I see.
2021-02-05T14:25:12Z VincentVega: ldb: sorry, what do you mean?
2021-02-05T14:28:36Z ldb: it is already possible to check if an object of wrong domain has been applied to a function
2021-02-05T14:29:13Z ldb: using type system or wstatic analysis tools
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2021-02-05T14:32:25Z VincentVega: ldb: Oh, I take it you were referring to a previous discussion here.
2021-02-05T14:34:14Z Bike: oh, the :direct-slots argument is supposed to be a specification rather than an actual slot definition. that's kind of inconvenient
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2021-02-05T14:39:29Z VincentVega: Bike: I guess could still be used to reconstruct the original class definition. Though, at that point, might as well just store the original code.
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2021-02-05T14:40:15Z Bike: https://gist.github.com/Bike/aadca846dee67e6fd16db4e69f54be2e here's my attempt. based on 30 seconds of testing i'm confident that this is absolutely correct.
2021-02-05T14:40:35Z Bike: you can try e.g. (defclass foo () () (:metaclass twb-class)) (slot-value (make-instance 'foo) 'hello-world)
2021-02-05T14:41:03Z Nilby: I feel like sometimes when you might think you want to dynamically add random slots to random objects, maybe one should just have simple property lists on objects.
2021-02-05T14:42:47Z Bike: probably
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2021-02-05T14:46:00Z jmercouris: or a dictionary
2021-02-05T14:46:09Z jmercouris: the problem is that you can't specialize on a dictionary or plist that easily
2021-02-05T14:46:12Z VincentVega: Bike: sweet : )
2021-02-05T14:46:14Z jmercouris: not without writing your own flow control code
2021-02-05T14:47:40Z Nilby: but I like Bike's correct code sketch
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2021-02-05T14:48:46Z Bike: i suppose the fancier thing would be having it signal the usual error, but offering a restart to define a new slot
2021-02-05T14:49:00Z Bike: this just assumes you want a new slot, with no accessors and an initform of nil
2021-02-05T14:49:27Z jmercouris: should allow you to pass a form that will create the new slot
2021-02-05T14:49:35Z jmercouris: so the exact same syntax that you'd use in defclass
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2021-02-05T15:02:29Z Josh_2: Sorry to be a pain, but Ive run into a really annoying issue where I seem to be processing the same message twice when my restart is invoked and returns t, only when the prefix is #.admin is the message processed twice and I can't figure out why https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2281#2281 this is the code I think is the culprit, does anything stand out as obviously wrong with the way I'm using the restarts? I hope so xD
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2021-02-05T15:08:59Z Bike: https://gist.github.com/Bike/aadca846dee67e6fd16db4e69f54be2e#gistcomment-3621408 now with fancy restart and defclass syntax.
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2021-02-05T15:11:34Z Bike: Josh_2: i don't understand the flow here. you mean extract-command-and-args is called twice or what?
2021-02-05T15:12:51Z Josh_2: Yes, it seems that way, only when the prefix is #.admin, if the prefix is immediately valid then this doesn't happen
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2021-02-05T15:16:02Z Bike: from this flow it looks like process-message is called exactly once on each message, and proces-smessage calls extract-command-and-args exactly once
2021-02-05T15:16:18Z Bike: i don't see any way they could be called twice unless one of the functions not in the paste calls them
2021-02-05T15:16:21Z Josh_2: this is why I'm so confused
2021-02-05T15:17:56Z Josh_2: when I trace extract-command-and-args it is getting called twice
2021-02-05T15:18:13Z VincentVega: Bike: Awesome! You know, I am thinking there's a nonzero chance I might actually be using something like that, just in case, could you, please, add a license to it?
2021-02-05T15:18:18Z andreyorst: wanted to ask a bit silly question -- how Common Lisp compares to C++ for developing stuff which typically developed in C++, like game engines, where you need to squize as much of performance as you possibly can. AFAICS Common Lisp has all stuff that is available in C++ in terms of language features, e.g. object system, compile time evaluation, templates are not needed, as CL is dynamically typed.
2021-02-05T15:18:19Z andreyorst: But CL is garbage collected and C++ uses RAII model, so this bit can be a lot of impact for high performance applications. So if anyone has experience of developing in both languages, I would like to hear thoughts on this topic. Thanks!
2021-02-05T15:20:13Z Bike: andreyorst: #lispgames might have thoughts on this
2021-02-05T15:21:41Z andreyorst: Question is not specific to game development, just an example of something what commonly written in C++
2021-02-05T15:21:53Z aeth: andreyorst: I mean, obviously C++ compilers are better because more people spend more time and money optimizing them... but there shouldn't be as much of a difference as you think because in both, you're going to preallocate nearly everything that you can, essentially avoiding the cost of allocations (which in C++ has a cost and in CL is usually 0 and sometimes a lot)
2021-02-05T15:21:55Z phoe: andreyorst: in practice, CL is gradually typed - you can add type information wherever the compiler cannot figure it out on its own, and you can have blocks that are weakly statically typed
2021-02-05T15:22:41Z aeth: andreyorst: Plus, a lot of the CL stuff in a game engine actually has to be manually memory managed because it needs to be passed to the GPU through the CFFI.
2021-02-05T15:23:20Z Bike: VincentVega: ok. but to reiterate i don't think this is actually a good idea probably.
2021-02-05T15:23:53Z andreyorst: aeth, game engine was just an example, but I see what you mean, thanks
2021-02-05T15:24:52Z aeth: andreyorst: I think the principle is going to be similar, at least if you want deterministic performance. Preallocate, and probably over-allocate. Use the preallocated.
2021-02-05T15:25:23Z VincentVega: Bike: well, just in case : D
2021-02-05T15:26:17Z pve: andreyorst: someone recently wrote a blog post about CL game engines, and I recall that the overhead associated with calling generic functions was the biggest pain point, GC not so much
2021-02-05T15:26:18Z aeth: andreyorst: And the high-performance core of anything that has to deal with arrays of numbers is going to be statically typed in CL because CL is gradually typed, as phoe said.
2021-02-05T15:26:31Z pve: please correct me if I'm remembering this wrong
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2021-02-05T15:29:43Z VincentVega: Bike: thank you!
2021-02-05T15:30:00Z aeth: pve: CL's generics are runtime dispatch and can wreck a compiler's type inference, too. You don't want to use them in a hot loop, but they're fine (maybe even encouraged) in the setup part, at least ime.
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2021-02-05T15:31:33Z aeth: NAME is probably the best example of a good generic. Even if you're using a struct for FOO instead, you might as well define a NAME method that just calls FOO-NAME... You shouldn't really architect your code to the point where you're calling NAME in a hot loop.
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2021-02-05T15:35:04Z aeth: pve: At least ime, it's often a good idea to use an instance of a DEFCLASS class to hold a struct instance... The DEFCLASS provides a very high-level interface to the outside world, while the DEFSTRUCT is retrieved from the generic and cached and accessed in the hot loop.
2021-02-05T15:35:55Z aeth: The hard judgement call when you need performance ime is whether to turn a DEFCLASS into a DEFSTRUCT or to do this hybrid approach.
2021-02-05T15:36:47Z gendl: Hi, in cl-who, what would be the idiomatic way to insert a newline into the output?  Just `(fmt "~%")`  ?
2021-02-05T15:37:16Z gendl: I thought I remembered a keyword for that or maybe that was aserve's HTMLgen.
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2021-02-05T15:38:04Z aeth: Well, (terpri) is the function in CL so you could see if that's part of the API
2021-02-05T15:38:30Z pve: aeth: makes sense.. the idea in the game engine mentioned by the blog post was to have it super-modifiable at runtime, which could explain the heavy use of generic functions
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2021-02-05T15:40:14Z pve: aeth: oh, found the link: https://mfiano.net/posts/Gamedev-Sleep-Repeat.html
2021-02-05T15:40:17Z aeth: pve: Imo, the real way to make a (high performance) game engine super-modifiable at runtime ime would be to replace all of its constants (there should be dozens) with parameters to a macro and just recompile a caller of that macro at runtime. But it would be very tricky to do properly.
2021-02-05T15:40:35Z beach: andreyorst: As I often say, it is impossible to write a C++ program that is both modular and fast.  And I though gamers would often forget about modularity, but aeth says I am wrong about that.
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2021-02-05T15:40:57Z contrapunctus: Is there anything like the Smalltalk class browser for Common Lisp?
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2021-02-05T15:41:23Z aeth: pve: So you should go one level more meta than normal and write a meta game engine... but it's all compile time, but you can just recompile at runtime...
2021-02-05T15:41:27Z phoe: not yet, and I've recently mentioned that I'd like to have one
2021-02-05T15:41:59Z tfb: contrapunctus: there is for specific implementations
2021-02-05T15:42:01Z Nilby: andreyorst: I used to be a C++ developer. Stay away from Common Lisp. It ruined everything for me. CL is very dangerous. Once you taste it's ultimate power and freedom you might never be able to go back. Yes, some have used CL to become very rich, but do you really want to risk being forever a crazy Lisp cultist?
2021-02-05T15:42:21Z contrapunctus: phoe: hey 🙂 don't hear from you in lisp@ of late!  ^^
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2021-02-05T15:42:29Z tfb: for instance LispWorks has one)
2021-02-05T15:42:40Z contrapunctus: tfb: oh 🤔
2021-02-05T15:43:04Z contrapunctus: I guess I might try making one.
2021-02-05T15:43:07Z phoe: contrapunctus: hey hi! lisp@? what do you mean?
2021-02-05T15:43:17Z pve: aeth: yeah, I can imagine it would require complex solutions
2021-02-05T15:43:17Z contrapunctus: phoe: the XMPP room lol
2021-02-05T15:43:23Z aeth: Nilby: were you Nullby back then?
2021-02-05T15:43:30Z phoe: oh! I totally forgot about it to be honest
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2021-02-05T15:43:44Z contrapunctus: ^^'
2021-02-05T15:44:04Z aeth: pve: Right, you'd have to simultaneously define everything to be done at compile time via macros, while at the same time not breaking the running game if the parameters were adjusted at runtime. It would be very complex.
2021-02-05T15:44:22Z aeth: (I mean, not literally everything at compile time, merely everything that can be done at compile time.)
2021-02-05T15:45:22Z aeth: And I mmean allowing the recompilation of a top-level DEFINE-GAME-ENGINE form, of course. Not crashing when the macro itself was redefined would probably be impossible in the general case.
2021-02-05T15:46:18Z pve: contrapunctus: I'm making a little smalltalk-in-lisp, and would really like to make a class browser for it at some point in the future :)
2021-02-05T15:46:56Z pve: I wonder which GUI library would be suitable..
2021-02-05T15:47:10Z beach: pve: Definitely McCLIM.
2021-02-05T15:48:09Z phoe: definitely mcclim
2021-02-05T15:48:27Z pve: beach: alrighty!
2021-02-05T15:48:46Z beach: pve: In fact, for a class browser you could probably use Clouseau, perhaps with some additional customization.
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2021-02-05T15:51:37Z pve: beach: ok that's good to know, will definitely check it out
2021-02-05T15:51:48Z contrapunctus: Would it be preferable for such a tool to work with the definitions loaded in the Lisp image, or with those in the project's files?
2021-02-05T15:52:08Z phoe: the former will be much easier
2021-02-05T15:52:39Z phoe: the latter is going to be damn hard because you'd need to evaluate code to find out what classes are available at all
2021-02-05T15:52:41Z aeth: It would be interesting to do both and then warn you when you try to commit to git with definitions out of sync.
2021-02-05T15:52:59Z aeth: These days, I restart SLIME just to be safe before pushing code to the origin
2021-02-05T15:53:19Z phoe: the trivial cases with DEFCLASS forms are going to work fine
2021-02-05T15:53:19Z aeth: It's too easy to rename a function, but still keep one caller of that now-ghost function around.
2021-02-05T15:54:05Z contrapunctus: aeth: been bitten by that innumerable times when Elisping Q_Q
2021-02-05T15:54:16Z contrapunctus: phoe: I see, thanks 😀
2021-02-05T15:54:28Z phoe: but imagine a DEFCLASS with a #.(foo) form inside it - which is possible and also one of the easiest ways to break the assumptions that you can parse Lisp code by reading it without read-eval or compilee-eval
2021-02-05T15:54:33Z pve: contrapunctus: In smalltalk, the source code is retained in the image, so in my class browser I would do the same for Lisp to keep things consistent
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2021-02-05T15:55:56Z contrapunctus: pve: would your class browser be for the Smalltalk-in-Lisp, or both? 🤔
2021-02-05T15:56:18Z phoe: I'm not even talking about crazy cases like (funcall (find-symbol (format nil "~A-~A-~A-~A" :ensure :class :using :class) :closer-mop) nil (get-class-name))
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2021-02-05T15:57:06Z phoe: even if morally questionable, this code is legal CL
2021-02-05T15:57:17Z phoe: try figuring our available classes from that.
2021-02-05T15:58:06Z scymtym: that said, static analysis does not have to cover every imaginable case to be useful
2021-02-05T15:58:07Z phoe: so, I'd guess, go for the classes available in the system at a given moment, and let people restart inferior lisps like aeth and I do if they want clean images
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2021-02-05T15:58:17Z phoe: scymtym: yes, that's correct
2021-02-05T15:58:36Z aeth: phoe: Anything obfuscated like that should be a warning because it's so unclear to read that it's a potential back door insertion
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2021-02-05T15:58:58Z scymtym: but yes, to be sure, a fresh image seems like only reliable way at the moment
2021-02-05T15:59:08Z scymtym uses a local CI-style setup for that
2021-02-05T15:59:10Z phoe: aeth: I don't say anyone should write or accept code like that; it's just that class definition can happen in obscure ways and times
2021-02-05T15:59:10Z pve: contrapunctus: I would like to be able to show smalltalk classes and their methods, but also lisp functions, special variables etc
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2021-02-05T15:59:36Z pve: contrapunctus: but I'm not sure how hard it would be to integrate everything cleanly.. probably pretty hard
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2021-02-05T15:59:48Z phoe: and a static analysis tool won't get to find all of that unless it's taught to find them
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2021-02-05T16:01:28Z Nilby: My dream is there is no code.
2021-02-05T16:02:30Z Josh_2: Bike: I figured out the problem
2021-02-05T16:02:34Z Josh_2: Thanks for taking a look
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2021-02-05T16:05:20Z Bike: no problem
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2021-02-05T16:15:29Z Josh_2: It was because two communities listen in the same room, so as the bot iterates through the community and processes the messages in the appropriate administration room (which is the same for both communities) it was reading the message twice. This isn't normally a problem because commands are internal to communities, but for global commands this becomes an issue
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2021-02-05T16:16:16Z Josh_2: using a variable with dynamic scope to store the ids of messages prefixed with #.admin solves this problem
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2021-02-05T18:27:12Z recalloc: Hi, I'm trying to enable clsql's reader syntax, but Sly doesn't seem to cooperate. Works on a terminal, though. Anyone had a similar issue have a workaround?
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2021-02-05T18:30:22Z recalloc: Specifically clsql:enable-sql-reader-syntax doesn't seem to cooperate regardless how I place it. Only thing that seems to work is clsql:file-enable-blablabla, but only when compiling entire files. No idea how I'd set it up to type SQL queries in a single defun or the REPL
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2021-02-05T19:04:08Z rogersm: Any video on how to use slime-inspector? I have the feeling I'm not using it to its full potential.
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2021-02-05T20:33:30Z phoe: minion: memo for rogersm: there is a little bit of inspector usage in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkqQq2Hwt5o
2021-02-05T20:33:32Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rogersm when he/she/it next speaks.
2021-02-05T20:36:49Z carkh: any easy way to get syntax highlight in .asdf files on emacs ? looks like sly doesn't do this out of the box
2021-02-05T20:37:25Z phoe: huh? are you in lisp-mode?
2021-02-05T20:37:32Z carkh: mhh
2021-02-05T20:37:52Z carkh: ok well =) sorry about that !
2021-02-05T20:37:55Z carkh: thanks
2021-02-05T20:37:57Z phoe: :D
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2021-02-05T20:52:38Z aeth: carkh: .asd is the ASDF extension which explains why .asd wasn't recognized.
2021-02-05T20:52:43Z aeth: *why .asdf wasn't recognized
2021-02-05T20:53:18Z aeth: You can force it with this on the first line: ;;;; -*- mode: common-lisp; -*-
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2021-02-05T20:55:30Z carkh: aeth: i just noticed this. after configuring emacs to accept asdf files =)
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2021-02-05T21:13:49Z hiredman: I have a weird sbcl alien ffi issue, I am creating a c struct, and setting fields on it, and I think I am running in to some kind of alignment or padding issue
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2021-02-05T21:15:15Z hiredman: the first field is 8 bits, the second and third are 16 bits
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2021-02-05T21:16:28Z hiredman: I set all 3 fields to some values, and then read the value back out of the second field, and it comes out fine, then I send the data over the network, and it comes out as the value of the first field, the value of the third field, zero
2021-02-05T21:18:05Z hiredman: so maybe when I set the field setf is taking the number as 32bits and setting both fields or something? but that doesn't explain how reading it back before it goes out on the network is all correct
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2021-02-05T21:28:00Z hiredman: arg, the luajit version of this I am trying to interoperate with is helpful inserting padding into the middle of its struct definition, mystery solved
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2021-02-06T03:59:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-06T04:04:09Z zacts: hi beach
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2021-02-06T04:05:43Z beach: minion: memo for rogersm: I recommend you use Clouseau instead.  It is way more competent than the SLIME inspector.
2021-02-06T04:05:44Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell rogersm when he/she/it next speaks.
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2021-02-06T04:23:18Z Josh_2: I have added two restarts to my restart-case and sbcl is complaining that it cannot stack allocate
2021-02-06T04:23:21Z Josh_2: is this normal?
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2021-02-06T04:28:52Z beach: Josh_2: I get that message a lot, and I turn it off whenever I can.
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2021-02-06T04:38:12Z Josh_2: ah okay
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2021-02-06T06:51:55Z beach: In SICL, I use the term "code object" for a data structure that is created as a result of processing a FASL file, but I am not happy with the term.
2021-02-06T06:52:11Z beach: I considered "compilation unit", but I suspect it would not be accurate with respect to the way that term is used by the Common Lisp standard.  But I am not sure, so I am asking here.
2021-02-06T06:52:19Z beach: The macro with-compilation-unit seems to suggest a compilation unit is all about delaying (or avoiding when possible) messages from the compiler.  And the glossary is not much help either.
2021-02-06T06:52:21Z beach: So what I am asking is, does the macro with-compilation-unit generate a single FASL from all the files being compiled in its dynamic environment?
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2021-02-06T07:54:03Z Alfr_: beach, I don't think it can for compile-file.
2021-02-06T07:55:03Z beach: Yeah, maybe not.
2021-02-06T07:55:49Z Alfr_: beach, but if you want to do some inter function optimizations, I think you'd be able to.
2021-02-06T07:56:00Z beach: I see, yes.
2021-02-06T07:56:24Z Alfr_: I would interpret "actions deferred by the compiler until the end of compilation will be deferred until the end of the outermost call to with-compilation-unit" that way.
2021-02-06T07:56:54Z flip214: engblom: yes. neovim and vlime with sbcl and swank.
2021-02-06T07:57:05Z beach: Alfr_: You may be right.
2021-02-06T07:59:16Z Alfr_: But I don't know to where to write the results of such.
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2021-02-06T10:08:08Z ioa: Any lispers watching FOSDEM this weekend? :)
2021-02-06T10:09:17Z heisig: Here!
2021-02-06T10:12:54Z ioa: hey heisig :)
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2021-02-06T10:13:30Z ioa: Tomorrow looks exciting (as every year in this room): "declarative and minimalist language devroom": https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/track/declarative_and_minimalistic_computing/
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2021-02-06T10:15:10Z ioa: Any suggestions for talks before 13:00? (I'll be watching the mozilla devroom after that - work is work ^^)
2021-02-06T10:15:50Z ioa: ^ today I mean
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2021-02-06T12:20:31Z heisig: ioa: Sorry, I'm probably too late to comment on pre 13:00 suggestions.  I will probably join the HPC devroom later.
2021-02-06T12:22:01Z heisig: But I fully agree.  Tomorrow is the day of "declarative and minimalist languages".  Which, surprisingly, seems to include Elisp and Common Lisp :)
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2021-02-06T13:04:40Z ioa: lol yes, I also found it funny that a common-lisp project is there. :)
2021-02-06T13:06:05Z contrapunctus: Elisp? Declarative and minimal? wat
2021-02-06T13:10:27Z ioa: Well, a lot of lispers are in that room, there are Scheme and Racket talks every year, and also other lisp-friend languages (as i see them) like Smalltalk, Pharo, etc. So it makes sense to have the common-lisp and elisp talks there too, even if they are not minimalistic (at all).
2021-02-06T13:10:38Z phoe: declarative for sure, given that you can macro your way all the way into declarative programming
2021-02-06T13:10:41Z phoe: same with CL
2021-02-06T13:11:09Z ioa: +1 phoe :)
2021-02-06T13:12:20Z ioa: Btw on Monday there is the fosdem fringe event "Guix Days" (scheme), and there will probably be a session on the common-lisp browser, Nyxt: https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/FOSDEM2021
2021-02-06T13:12:36Z phoe: ;; though CL is also declarative even without macros - see e.g. CL:DECLARE!
2021-02-06T13:12:37Z ioa: as one of the main developers is a guixer
2021-02-06T13:12:45Z ioa: lol phoe
2021-02-06T13:13:26Z ioa: s/(scheme)/(guile scheme)/
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2021-02-06T13:29:35Z Nilby: I like Mes https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/gnumes/ and I wonder if there could be a short(er) path from Mes to CL.
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2021-02-06T16:08:08Z ioa: Nilby there is a guix workflow language talk now in the hpc room: https://live.fosdem.org/watch/dhpc
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2021-02-06T16:23:21Z beach: I uploaded a new version of my draft paper on call-site optimization: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf  The new version contains sections on how call sites to FUNCALL and APPLY with a function name known at compile time are handled.
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2021-02-06T17:33:02Z asarch: If I have two lists: '(ao aka shiro) and '(kuro midori aka), how could I know what elements of the first list are no present on the second list?
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2021-02-06T17:34:19Z _death: are they sets? if so, (set-difference set1 set2)
2021-02-06T17:34:54Z asarch: Sets?
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2021-02-06T17:36:26Z _death: does ordering or multiplicity of elements matter
2021-02-06T17:36:42Z asarch: (setf farbe (set-difference '(aka ao shiro) '(midori aka kuro)))
2021-02-06T17:36:45Z asarch: No, it doesn't
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2021-02-06T17:39:51Z asarch: Yeah! Thank you _death! Thank you very much! :-)
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2021-02-06T17:55:43Z edgar-rft: asarch: set theory = mengenlehre
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2021-02-06T17:59:35Z Alfr_: _death, just made me have a terrible idea: (let (acc) (set-difference list1 list2 :test (lambda (x y) (push (list x y)) nil)) acc)
2021-02-06T18:00:01Z phoe: Alfr_: what is this supposed to achieve though
2021-02-06T18:00:06Z Alfr_: Oh, push onto acc of course.
2021-02-06T18:00:17Z phoe: yes, but why put that in TEST?
2021-02-06T18:00:39Z loke[m]: Alfr_: that is indeed a terrible idea. SET-DIFFERENCE doesn't specify how the test function is called.
2021-02-06T18:00:40Z Alfr_: phoe, cartesian product of list1 and list2 elements.
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2021-02-06T18:00:57Z phoe: ...oh
2021-02-06T18:01:02Z phoe: oh goodness
2021-02-06T18:01:42Z Alfr_: loke[m], it does, namely "for all ordered pairs" of the list's elements.
2021-02-06T18:01:59Z Alfr_: *lists'
2021-02-06T18:02:10Z phoe: loke[m]: but one thing is sure, if the test returns NIL all the time, then it is called on all combinations of list elements
2021-02-06T18:02:25Z phoe: "For all possible ordered pairs consisting of one element from list-1 and one element from list-2, the :test or :test-not function is used to determine whether they satisfy the test."
2021-02-06T18:02:42Z phoe: actually it looks like it specifies how the test function is called
2021-02-06T18:03:32Z phoe: that's a simple O(n²) test
2021-02-06T18:04:05Z Alfr_: In light of that requirement, is sbcl wrong to short circuit when a :test succeeds?
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2021-02-06T18:04:55Z loke[m]: phoe: so it would seem.
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2021-02-06T18:05:28Z Nilby: isn't there cautions about assuming things about test functions elsewhere?
2021-02-06T18:06:05Z Alfr_: Oh it's okay, "used to determine" should cover short circuiting.
2021-02-06T18:07:12Z loke[m]: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/17_ba.htm
2021-02-06T18:07:30Z Nilby enjoys creative use of :test side effects
2021-02-06T18:09:22Z ted_wroclaw: Hi everyone.  I noticed that in the user list Fabrice Nicol is implementing some extensions to the emacs toolchain.  This made me wonder...How much work would it be to implement the language server protocol (LSP) for Mercury?  Has anyone worked with the LSP in another context?
2021-02-06T18:09:26Z ted_wroclaw: oops.
2021-02-06T18:09:37Z ck_: I think it's probably mandatory for someon to link https://lisptips.com/post/43404489000/the-tree-walkers-of-cl again at this point
2021-02-06T18:09:38Z ted_wroclaw: sorry.  wrong chat
2021-02-06T18:10:11Z jackdaniel: oi oi, another polish lisp hacker ;)
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2021-02-06T18:11:53Z phoe: ck_: that's :key though
2021-02-06T18:12:07Z phoe: oh wait, the second one has :test
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2021-02-06T18:27:26Z Alfr_: ck_, those are neat.
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2021-02-06T18:39:39Z waleee-cl: ted_wroclaw:  the mercury language? The prior art is limited to the flycheck addon I think so probably lots of work
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2021-02-06T18:59:09Z puchacz: hi, in sbcl, what's the recommended way of making sure that a globally accessible thing is updated, so other threads don't see a garbage or unupdated value?
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2021-02-06T19:01:50Z puchacz: lispworks manual says that (1) if you acquire a lock, it executes all pending updates to memory, or (2) if you start a new thread, it will only be started when all pending updates are complete; here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/LW/html/lw-142.htm#91403
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2021-02-06T19:02:11Z puchacz: .3.4.1 Ways to guarantee the visibility of stores, points 1 and 5
2021-02-06T19:02:21Z puchacz: are the practical ways if I don't want to think about it too much
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2021-02-06T19:02:29Z puchacz: but obviously it is specific to lispworks
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2021-02-06T19:02:53Z puchacz: do I have to use barriers in sbcl? or both of these conditions like in lispworks are enough?
2021-02-06T19:03:28Z asarch: Bingo! Tadaima! :-)
2021-02-06T19:03:38Z phoe: a globally accessible thing is updated...
2021-02-06T19:03:44Z phoe: is this thing CASable?
2021-02-06T19:03:58Z puchacz: what is CAS?
2021-02-06T19:04:04Z phoe: check the SBCL manual!
2021-02-06T19:04:08Z phoe: it's compare-and-swap
2021-02-06T19:04:18Z phoe: atomic updating operations.
2021-02-06T19:04:31Z asarch: Theory, edgar-rft?
2021-02-06T19:04:45Z puchacz: phoe, ok, tks
2021-02-06T19:04:46Z puchacz: :)
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2021-02-06T19:09:25Z puchacz: right, so would I have to update everything with compare-and-swap, that I would normally setf or call a setter method?
2021-02-06T19:09:58Z phoe: either your updates are simple and atomic enough to fit within a single CAS operation
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2021-02-06T19:10:11Z phoe: or, if you need to update multiple objects or your place is not CASable, then you need to use a lock
2021-02-06T19:11:08Z puchacz: lock is fine by me. so it would make it identical to lispworks rule 1 (use lock)
2021-02-06T19:11:31Z puchacz: how about rule 5? when starting a new thread, all memory updates are completed before your code runs?
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2021-02-06T19:12:15Z phoe: you shouldn't need to care about this if you use locks properly; your other thread will wait for the lock to get freed before doing anything nasty anyway
2021-02-06T19:13:07Z puchacz: I guess if "rule 5" was not true in sbcl, you wouldn't be guaranteed to see symbol bindings from another thread (even defuns) that you load from a file.
2021-02-06T19:13:23Z puchacz: but I did not find it stated explicitely
2021-02-06T19:13:32Z phoe: why does this have anything to do with threads?
2021-02-06T19:13:47Z phoe: global bindings are accessible from all threads in the same way, this includes global function bindings
2021-02-06T19:14:10Z phoe: if thread A modifies a global binding, then this binding becomes apparent in all other threads when thread A is done updating it
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2021-02-06T19:15:35Z puchacz: so when slime or sly loads a program, and then starts REPL for you, what guarantees that in the REPL thread you see all bindings loaded before? just that enough time has passed?
2021-02-06T19:16:14Z phoe: when the function in the other thread returns
2021-02-06T19:16:16Z puchacz: on the other hand you see bindings in REPL thread that are made when your REPL thread is already running
2021-02-06T19:16:35Z phoe: when a function finishes doing stuff, then stuff is done
2021-02-06T19:16:43Z phoe: that's a thread-independent assumption
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2021-02-06T19:17:48Z puchacz: maybe I am too paranoid from Java influence, where nothing is guaranteed to be visible to another thread if it is in a non-final object field and the field was not modifined inside synchronized block
2021-02-06T19:18:02Z puchacz: (however in practice I have never seen this problem)
2021-02-06T19:18:07Z Nilby: I very rarely experience such problems with threads.
2021-02-06T19:18:32Z phoe: lisp ain't java
2021-02-06T19:18:38Z puchacz: and lispworks manual is explicit that a new thread sees all global updates that the parent thread executed
2021-02-06T19:18:47Z Nilby: But I also ussually encapulate most state in dynamic objects.
2021-02-06T19:18:52Z phoe: when a thread mutates the state of the image then the state of the image is mutated for *all* threads
2021-02-06T19:18:59Z phoe: that's for global objects
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2021-02-06T19:20:35Z puchacz: so you think in sbcl that a new thread will see all updates to say defvar-ed global variables that are done by its parent thread before bt:make-thread?
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2021-02-06T19:21:08Z phoe: what do you mean, before bt:make-thread?
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2021-02-06T19:21:17Z phoe: (lambda () (setf *foo* 42) (bt:make-thread ...))?
2021-02-06T19:21:27Z phoe: then the value of *FOO* will be 42 before the thread is spawned
2021-02-06T19:21:34Z puchacz: (defvar x 3) (setf x 4) (bt:make-thread (lambda () x))
2021-02-06T19:21:35Z puchacz: yes
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2021-02-06T19:22:08Z puchacz: is the lambda guaranteed to read x as 4, and never 3? (assuming nothing else modified it)
2021-02-06T19:22:18Z phoe: I would say so, yes
2021-02-06T19:22:47Z phoe: #sbcl might be able to confirm
2021-02-06T19:22:55Z puchacz: this is what lispworks manual explicitely says, I wonder why they made it explicit.... as if it was not obvious
2021-02-06T19:23:11Z puchacz: ok, thanks - I will ask
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2021-02-06T19:51:34Z puchacz: I think I remember from previous conversations that a non-dynamic let (i.e. lexical only) is always visible in another thread, like (let ((x 7)) (run-in-another-thread (lambda () x )) )
2021-02-06T19:51:39Z puchacz: is it so:-)  ?
2021-02-06T19:52:23Z puchacz: mind I did not necessarily create a new thread there, I could have queued a closure for execution on a thread that already existed
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2021-02-06T20:07:53Z phoe: (lambda () x) is already a closure
2021-02-06T20:08:39Z puchacz: yes, this is what I referred to - the closure created there could have been put in a queue for an existing thread to be executed, not necessarily a new one.
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2021-02-06T20:11:29Z puchacz: and how do you know that a mutated state of the image is mutated to all threads? I can't see it in the manual.
2021-02-06T20:11:37Z puchacz: (might be indeed that I worry too much)
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2021-02-06T20:21:44Z phoe: in the general case, I guess this depends on your CPU and compiler combination
2021-02-06T20:22:03Z phoe: and, ultimately, on memory fences wherever they are required
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2021-02-06T20:24:40Z puchacz: hmmm
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2021-02-06T21:06:43Z Bike: "this is what lispworks manual explicitely says, I wonder why they made it explicit.... as if it was not obvious" it's not obvious. i mean, it is intuitively, but intuition doesn't usually work very well with concurrency.
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2021-02-06T21:07:33Z Bike: i don't think sbcl has any kind of memory model to define the behavior here. i'm kind of surprised lispworks has anything. practically speaking you can probably rely on make-thread and join-thread synchronizing, and locks working, but other than that you might need barriers
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2021-02-06T21:09:43Z puchacz: Bike - so if I let ((x "hen")) .... ) and have any closure where I put dots, I understand that the closure will read x as "hen" (I wanted a complex object, not a fixnum), no matter what thread will execute the closure, providing that nothing will (setf x "chicken") at some point, is it right?
2021-02-06T21:10:18Z puchacz: setfing anything requires a barrier, no matter if it is a global / special variable, or a lexical one?
2021-02-06T21:11:37Z Bike: if you never setf x you can probably rely on it having that value, yes
2021-02-06T21:12:06Z puchacz: is it "obvious":-)  ?
2021-02-06T21:12:26Z Bike: strictly speaking no, you can imagine a system where x is garbage in other threads
2021-02-06T21:12:29Z puchacz: like I can rely on it in any lisp because for example it is impossible to implement it other way
2021-02-06T21:12:35Z puchacz: ah, ok
2021-02-06T21:12:38Z Bike: the whole thing is technically undefined behavior, is the issue
2021-02-06T21:12:47Z Bike: so you're stuck with "well, sbcl PROBABLY works this way"
2021-02-06T21:14:01Z puchacz: and is a lock enforcing a barrier, like in lispworks?
2021-02-06T21:14:15Z puchacz: sorry if it was said already, I am confused
2021-02-06T21:14:19Z Bike: Yes, locks involve read and write barriers
2021-02-06T21:14:51Z Bike: It is confusing. Here's the problem: When you write your sequence of operations (setf x 0) (setf y 1) whatever, in one thread, the compiler and or machine might reorder those sets to be in some other order, as long as the single-thread semantics are the obvious ones
2021-02-06T21:15:02Z Bike: so if you're looking from other threads, you see impossible things
2021-02-06T21:15:05Z puchacz: agree
2021-02-06T21:15:17Z Bike: what a barrier does is tell the compiler and the machine to actually finish all the writes or reads or whatever that it's doing
2021-02-06T21:15:19Z puchacz: never seen it in Java, however they stress it in every tutorial
2021-02-06T21:15:40Z Bike: java put a lot of thought into how this behavior works
2021-02-06T21:16:59Z Bike: the problem only comes when one thread writes a place and another thread reads or writes it, and there's no synchronization relationship. If you only read and write to shared places from within excluded regions (like, with locks), that handles the synchronization so there's no issue.
2021-02-06T21:17:48Z puchacz: because grabbing a lock involves waiting for all pending stores to complete, globally in the whole image? this is what lispworks people imply I think about their system
2021-02-06T21:19:12Z puchacz: (I still don't understand if a barrier flushes everything, how would it decide otherwise what to flush)
2021-02-06T21:19:12Z Bike: When you release a lock there's a write barrier. When you acquire a lock there's a read barrier. So the thread that grabs the lock sees any writes done by the thread that just gave up the lock.
2021-02-06T21:19:30Z Bike: I don't think you can rely on writes in other threads being completed, though
2021-02-06T21:19:41Z puchacz: I see
2021-02-06T21:20:37Z puchacz: while I can imagine a write barrier means execute pending stores to memory (from instructions executes while the lock was held), what is a read barrier? clear any compiler level hidden caches?
2021-02-06T21:22:05Z Bike: say you have (progn (acquire-lock lock) (do-stuff (+ x y))). Without a read barrier, the compiler (or more likely the machine) might rewrite this as (let ((my-x x) (my-y y)) (acquire-lock lock) (do-stuff (+ x y)))
2021-02-06T21:22:24Z Bike: So if another thread has the lock and writes to x and y, this thread might not see that
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2021-02-06T21:22:55Z Bike: Like, it might start the read earlier, anticipating that it will need the result soon
2021-02-06T21:23:56Z Bike: The barrier tells the compiler and the machine that it can't start reads after the barrier until it actually reaches the barrier
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2021-02-06T21:24:45Z puchacz: I see, because, as in your examples, it copies values to local variables
2021-02-06T21:24:54Z puchacz: before the main operation begins
2021-02-06T21:25:26Z puchacz: read barrier means do not copy variables before the barrier
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2021-02-06T21:25:38Z Bike: Yeah. You can imagine X might be a more complicated read, like accessing a vector or something.
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2021-02-06T21:26:02Z Bike: (really, if x is a shared lexical variable, reading it probably amounts to reading a vector)
2021-02-06T21:28:32Z puchacz: right. and I always pass values to a thread by creating lexical variables visible in a closure that will be executed in a thread. you said I can rely it will PROBABLY work in sbcl, so is there a more recommended way? I would do the same in lispworks, but when I read carefully what they wrote, they only say I will have my variable values if I pass
2021-02-06T21:28:32Z puchacz: it to a closure that will be executed in a new thread, they don't say what happens if the thread is a long lived executor and I only pass my closure to a queue.
2021-02-06T21:29:40Z Bike: You mean, you put your closure in a queue, and then the other thread dequeues the closure and calls it?
2021-02-06T21:29:46Z puchacz: yes
2021-02-06T21:29:56Z puchacz: they don't say anything about this scenario
2021-02-06T21:30:31Z puchacz: and btw, this is how I pass unmodifiable variables only, and with objects that I don't intend to modify
2021-02-06T21:31:39Z Bike: So you mean, the sequence is like: You start the executor thread. You bind x. You create this closure that will read x. You put this closure in the queue.
2021-02-06T21:31:49Z puchacz: yes
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2021-02-06T21:32:34Z Bike: if the queue is lock based there could be a synchronization relationship that way
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2021-02-06T21:33:01Z Bike: otherwise, i suppose you would have to use a barrier. it looks like this "ensure-stores-after-stores" thing in lispworks is a barrier.
2021-02-06T21:33:18Z puchacz: yes, it seems so, however I only read it today :)
2021-02-06T21:34:05Z Bike: When I say "practically" part of what I mean is that this reordering stuff is usually pretty quick temporally. It's not like you'll have a read reordered an entire second before you expect it
2021-02-06T21:34:37Z puchacz: it is a realistic scenario in Android, you are supposed to "do stuff" and then stick a lambda into a queue to be executed in the main thread
2021-02-06T21:34:46Z Bike: https://android.googlesource.com/kernel/x86/+/android-wear-6.0.1_r0.15/Documentation/memory-barriers.txt btw, here's the linux kernel documentation on barriers that sbcl recommends
2021-02-06T21:35:16Z Bike: this is based on the particulars of how machines work rather than high level semantics, but it might help
2021-02-06T21:39:03Z puchacz: ok, thanks, I see recommended in sbcl manual's barrier section
2021-02-06T21:39:55Z Bike: oh, and i've been trying to write a language extension for lisp so that it does at least as well as java, so i wrote up something too https://gist.github.com/Bike/e587d9f6dcfb4c50936d61c4bc150398 still a work in progress
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2021-02-06T21:40:48Z puchacz: excellent, thank you very much!
2021-02-06T21:41:08Z Bike: thank you for pointing out that lispworks does have some definitions here, it's the first lisp implementation i've seen that does
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2021-02-06T21:41:44Z puchacz: yes, but they don't say about lexical variables, most of what I read today is about globally accessible cells
2021-02-06T21:43:50Z puchacz: I think I shall start writing code that passes variables to other threads like I did before, with lexical (let ...), but in addition add a barrier
2021-02-06T21:44:11Z Bike: Yeah the only mention of lexical variables I see is that you can't use the atomic operations on them, which isn't very encouraging
2021-02-06T21:44:31Z Bike: (here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/LW/html/lw-152.htm#24834)
2021-02-06T21:45:00Z puchacz: arrgh, "it is an error to use"
2021-02-06T21:45:09Z puchacz: barriers that is
2021-02-06T21:45:17Z puchacz: should work in sbcl and lispworks
2021-02-06T21:46:09Z Bike: also, with the definitions here "globally accessible cell" seems to me like it encompasses shared lexical variables, even though they're not actually global
2021-02-06T21:46:29Z Bike: since it just says a globally accessible cell is "a cell that may be accessed by those threads"
2021-02-06T21:47:49Z Bike: It's possible you don't need to use barriers depending on how your queue works. what kind of queue is it? something lispworks provides?
2021-02-06T21:48:18Z puchacz: it is android thing
2021-02-06T21:48:24Z puchacz: but I am thinking in general
2021-02-06T21:49:54Z puchacz: this: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/LW/html/lw-537.htm
2021-02-06T21:49:56Z Bike: i ask because with only the primitives lispworks has here, i don't think you could actually implement a queue that doesn't itself synchronize
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2021-02-06T21:50:37Z Bike: oh, let's see
2021-02-06T21:51:16Z Bike: "The invocation of the function is done by the event loop of the GUI thread, so it is synchronous with respect to processing events, in other words it will not happen in the middle of processing an event." maybe that's enough? i don't know
2021-02-06T21:51:37Z Bike: you might be able to ask lispworks support about this, they'd know better than i do
2021-02-06T21:51:55Z puchacz: it is just that andorid draws everything in one thread, like java swing
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2021-02-06T21:52:39Z puchacz: event processing uses the same thread, so what you put there, won't execute in parallel with event processing, because there is a single thread that responds to touches and draws
2021-02-06T21:53:07Z puchacz: so I am thinking I am reading a database in the background thread, which creates some objects, not practical to wrap it with bt:with-lock-held and use the same lock to access the objects in android thread. need to use memory barrier
2021-02-06T21:54:00Z puchacz: and it is compatible with sbcl (not that I would use sbcl on android, but the code may be shared)
2021-02-06T21:54:26Z Bike: I'm not familiar with android, but what I mean is - if you put something on this queue while processing an event, and you know that processing events synchronizes with the something being called, that's enough, and you don't need a barrier
2021-02-06T21:54:54Z Bike: The thing won't be called until definitely after you're done processing the event. the event loop has its own barriers
2021-02-06T21:55:07Z Bike: but i'm not totally sure that's how it works from the description here. it might
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2021-02-06T21:57:06Z puchacz: I see what you mean. it will finish processing an event, execute write barrier, and then when it grabs my closure, first thing it will do is a read barrier. but will read barrier help if I created an object reading from the database in the background thread without a write barrier? what will make sure that it is fully written to memory if I used no
2021-02-06T21:57:06Z puchacz: lock or barrier when reading the object?
2021-02-06T22:00:01Z Bike: You mean like... there's one thread that reads from the database, a different thread that pushes the closure to the queue, and then the third main thread that executes the closure?
2021-02-06T22:00:35Z puchacz: no, just 2 threads
2021-02-06T22:01:23Z puchacz: one thread reads the database and creates an object, puts it into a lexical variable using (let ((obj ....)) if not lexical already, and then pushes a lambda into the android queue.
2021-02-06T22:01:50Z puchacz: so my point is that I never used a write barrier - you said that write barrier related to a lock only flushes pending stores executed when the lock was held
2021-02-06T22:02:21Z puchacz: android will possibly run a write barrier when finishing last event processing, but it will flush its own writes onlhy
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2021-02-06T22:02:49Z Bike: hm. i dunno.
2021-02-06T22:03:12Z Bike: i mean, there shouldn't be any harm in putting in barriers, except that it might make things slower
2021-02-06T22:03:34Z puchacz: looks like in lispworks I should put store-after-store, and find equivalent barrier call in sbcl
2021-02-06T22:04:35Z Bike: sb-thread:barrier
2021-02-06T22:04:55Z Bike: with :write or :read or whatever
2021-02-06T22:06:22Z puchacz: ok, thanks - I will read the details which values are actually stored, unless it is global for the whole image?
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2021-02-06T22:07:54Z Bike: should be any stores from the thread doing the barrier, i think
2021-02-06T22:08:05Z puchacz: perfect
2021-02-06T22:08:13Z puchacz: flush all my writes up till this point
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2021-02-06T22:09:42Z puchacz: and read barrier on the "opposite" side, to make sure the code did not read the values before I flush them, so now I understand why a new thread will not need read barrier in lispworks (it did not exist, it could not "cache" anything in lexicals for example)
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2021-02-06T22:10:26Z puchacz: but frankly, it is unlikely a lambda passed on a queue for the existing thread to be executed would need a read barrier as the first instruction
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2021-02-06T22:11:09Z Bike: yeah
2021-02-06T22:11:23Z Bike: i guess i can imagine some compiler transformations that would make it look like a read barrier violation
2021-02-06T22:11:28Z Bike: but it would be kind of asinine to do them
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2021-02-06T22:12:34Z Bike: e.g., (let ((x 7)) (make-thread (lambda () (setf x 5))) (make-thread (lambda () (loop until (= x 5) do ...)))). the compiler could constant fold the x in (= x 5) to be 7
2021-02-06T22:12:57Z Bike: on the theory that there's nothing forcing the (setf x 5) to be visible ever
2021-02-06T22:13:27Z puchacz: right
2021-02-06T22:13:29Z puchacz: it is scary
2021-02-06T22:14:27Z puchacz: btw, on #sbcl - stassats told me in my example lexical x will always have the last value in sbcl, no matter if my lambda is passed to a new thread, or a queue for the old thread
2021-02-06T22:14:42Z puchacz: he disappeared before I understood what "shared" is though
2021-02-06T22:14:55Z puchacz: and I am supposed to use barriers and locks for shared things :)
2021-02-06T22:15:02Z puchacz: anyway, I learned a lot today
2021-02-06T22:16:03Z puchacz: locks I know from java, but barriers are the new friends now
2021-02-06T22:17:00Z Bike: probably just means in the unexamined sense of being accessible from multiple threads. but in your example x will always be 4 in the thread because make-thread does synchronization
2021-02-06T22:17:37Z puchacz: sure, but I also asked what if it is passed onto executor started long time ago, he says 4
2021-02-06T22:17:59Z puchacz: make-thread behaves like in lispworks, I see more and more evidence for it now
2021-02-06T22:18:14Z puchacz: maybe creating a closure is also a barrier
2021-02-06T22:18:37Z Bike: mh. like i said, if "a long time ago" is more than like a millisecond you don't need a barrier practically speaking
2021-02-06T22:19:01Z Bike: whatever, i'm sure you got it
2021-02-06T22:19:09Z puchacz: thanks :)
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2021-02-06T22:19:21Z puchacz: very very helpful things you said
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2021-02-06T22:20:14Z puchacz: (the executor may have been created long time ago but my closure may be executed 0.5 ms after being put on the queue, which is what matters I think)
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2021-02-06T22:51:54Z puchacz: why does (sb-thread:barrier ...) macro accept a body? the manual says the body is executed before the barrier, so can I just put (sb-thread:barrier :write) and would it mean that all writes before this form will be completed before any write is executed after this form? in another word, it seems to me that I never need to put any body into this
2021-02-06T22:51:54Z puchacz: macro and use it exactly like I would use lispworks' (sys:ensure-stores-after-stores).
2021-02-06T22:52:28Z puchacz: similarly with (sb-tread:barrier :read) macro with no body being exactly equivalent of lispworks' form  (sys:ensure-loads-after-loads)
2021-02-06T22:52:53Z puchacz: they have an example here, at the bottom: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw71/LW/html/lw-152.htm
2021-02-06T22:53:29Z puchacz: there seems to be nothing special about the body I can put into sbcl's macros
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2021-02-07T00:15:45Z thmprover: Say, is there a good overview of the "instruction set" of a Lisp Machine?
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2021-02-07T00:30:27Z luis: thmprover: first google result: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/cadr/Knight-LISP_Machine_Macro_Instruction_Set-1979.pdf
2021-02-07T00:31:17Z luis: not sure if that's what you're looking for, though
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2021-02-07T00:34:00Z luis: maybe http://www.unlambda.com/lispm/memo528.html
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2021-02-07T00:34:22Z thmprover: luis: ah, I should be more precise, I mean a Symbolics Lisp Machine. I've been looking for material about the Ivory processor without much success :(
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2021-02-07T00:36:52Z thmprover: luis: Thanks for the links, though :) I actually just studied and took notes on them this morning.
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2021-02-07T01:06:35Z aeth: thmprover: bitsavers has almost everything afaik, you just have to keep looking
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2021-02-07T01:10:40Z thmprover: aeth: ah, I see, well, I must look harder, or study the source code of a Symbolics emulator
2021-02-07T01:11:07Z aeth: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/
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2021-02-07T01:35:24Z thmprover: Gah, it turns out I was looking in the wrong places on bitsavers.org! I should have looked at the I-machine's documentation for its macroinstruction set
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2021-02-07T04:01:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-07T04:11:23Z zdm: beach: I feel excluded, its not morning here.
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2021-02-07T04:12:27Z beach: zdm: Oh, you need to look into UGT, Universal Greeting Time.
2021-02-07T04:13:47Z zdm: beach: Heh, I like that
2021-02-07T04:14:37Z beach: zdm: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2021-02-07T04:16:32Z zdm: beach: I've been before but never regularly, so I might as well be new.
2021-02-07T04:16:51Z beach: I see.
2021-02-07T04:17:25Z beach: So what brings you to #lisp?
2021-02-07T04:19:35Z zdm: To passively learn as I have the buffer open from time to time, and maybe ask some questions when I start learning CL again, though maybe that'd be more appropriate for #clschool.
2021-02-07T04:20:43Z beach: I wouldn't worry about that.  You will be told if you prompt too lengthy discussions about trivial stuff.
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2021-02-07T04:45:08Z White_Flame: discussions about trivial-* stuff are fine ;)
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2021-02-07T08:17:35Z Nilby: beach: I don't know if you've seen, but Alan Dipert gives you & your work & papers some great praise in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44Q9ew9JH_U
2021-02-07T08:19:05Z beach: I hadn't seen that.  Thanks for pointing it out.
2021-02-07T08:20:18Z beach: Oh, it's a long presentation.  I'll watch it in smaller chunks.
2021-02-07T08:22:33Z Nilby: starting at about 53 mins
2021-02-07T08:26:03Z Nilby: otherwise it's not much new content for CL people, except that clojure people are saying nice things
2021-02-07T08:26:14Z beach: Ah, OK.  Thanks.
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2021-02-07T09:03:38Z gj: hello
2021-02-07T09:06:08Z beach: Hello gj.
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2021-02-07T09:07:31Z beach: gj: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2021-02-07T09:07:51Z gj: yep, i am new here
2021-02-07T09:08:06Z beach: Great!  Welcome!  What brings you to #lisp?
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2021-02-07T09:08:43Z gj: oh not much at all, i have been learning common lisp for a few weeks now and think it is great.
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2021-02-07T09:11:10Z beach: Oh, good!
2021-02-07T09:12:45Z beach: What language(s) did you use before, if any?
2021-02-07T09:13:27Z gj: first freeBASIC, then Python.
2021-02-07T09:13:37Z beach: I see.
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2021-02-07T09:15:52Z Nilby: after over 2k weeks i still think it's great.
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2021-02-07T09:16:28Z beach: So 4 years or so?
2021-02-07T09:16:55Z Nilby: more like 40
2021-02-07T09:17:07Z beach: Oops. Heh! :)
2021-02-07T09:18:06Z beach: Hold on though, Common Lisp has not been around that long, at least not the standard.
2021-02-07T09:19:01Z beach: Did you use pre-ANSI Common Lisp before?
2021-02-07T09:19:21Z Nilby: i think the first was on pdp8 or pdp10 lisp?
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2021-02-07T09:20:35Z beach: Oh, so we count pre-CL Lisps.
2021-02-07T09:20:52Z beach: Then I get roughly the same number for myself.
2021-02-07T09:21:15Z Nilby: hmmm, I wonder what's the first CL I used
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2021-02-07T09:22:36Z Nilby: i guess it was using the new CL features in symbolics lisp, what ever years that was
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2021-02-07T09:27:41Z Nilby: i think i might need another 40 years to finish my projects, too bad i spent so much time with other langauges
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2021-02-07T10:13:59Z heisig: The FOSDEM talk "A Lisp REPL as my main shell" starts in five minutes: https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/lisprepl/
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2021-02-07T10:15:54Z ck_: neat, thanks for the reminder
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2021-02-07T10:22:44Z flip214: gj: anything we can help with, or did you join just out of curiosity?
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2021-02-07T10:29:55Z gj: not at the moment, no.
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2021-02-07T10:30:17Z gj: thank you for asking! i will ask if there is anything i need help with.
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2021-02-07T10:51:15Z ioa: heisig, that was a brilliant talk! :)
2021-02-07T10:52:01Z ioa: Although I am excited about all the talks in this room today :D
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2021-02-07T10:55:39Z heisig: ioa: Absolutely.  WebAssembly, s-expression diffs, Guix, Nyxt, ...
2021-02-07T10:57:07Z ioa: YEAY! :D
2021-02-07T10:58:21Z ioa: "s-expression diffs" what a brilliant idea, extra "can't wait" points for that ^^
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2021-02-07T11:47:57Z ioa: This is by far the easiest to follow presentation of webassembly!! Any webassembly newbies here watching to confirm? :)
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2021-02-07T12:29:02Z ioa: sexp diff --> I feel the need to work on this ^^ brilliant
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2021-02-07T13:56:01Z nij: Any package that helps with sentence parsing?
2021-02-07T13:56:37Z nij: (parse "I have a\n  little \t dog, and you?") ==> ("I" "have" "a" "little" "dog" "," "and" "you" "?")
2021-02-07T13:56:46Z nij: ^ as an example ^
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2021-02-07T13:59:15Z ioa: you can do that with split-sequence: https://www.cliki.net/SPLIT-SEQUENCE
2021-02-07T13:59:35Z ioa: here is a list of more general parser libraries: https://cliki.net/parser%20generator
2021-02-07T13:59:56Z ioa: ^ nij
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2021-02-07T14:00:42Z ldb: good ebening
2021-02-07T14:01:05Z ioa: (you might need a second pass to extract the punctuation symbols)
2021-02-07T14:01:16Z ioa: ^ with split-sequence
2021-02-07T14:01:22Z ioa: hi ldb
2021-02-07T14:01:34Z nij: yeah might need a twist. thanks ioa :D
2021-02-07T14:01:38Z nij: good morning ldb
2021-02-07T14:03:04Z pve: nij: for tokenizing natural language you might want to look at some NLP library
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2021-02-07T14:06:20Z pve: nij: When you say "sentence parsing", you actually mean "tokenization", parsing is a more complicated task.
2021-02-07T14:07:08Z ldb: so, as for the "not advocating use of terminal" thing, is it possible that, if I have another non Lisp program designed for terminal, I can now redirect the IO to SLY?
2021-02-07T14:08:16Z ldb: by communicating in appropriate sexp protocal
2021-02-07T14:10:10Z nij: pve: what is the general meaning of sentence parsing then ?
2021-02-07T14:10:52Z nij: ldb: i think you can redirect the IO by using uiop/run-program
2021-02-07T14:11:06Z nij: ah i'm not sure about I but O yes
2021-02-07T14:12:32Z nij: But do you have a terminal program that has I? Is that a repl or a server or somthing?
2021-02-07T14:16:51Z ldb: nij: it is an interactive repl
2021-02-07T14:17:44Z nij: If not from lisp or the terminal that's running it, how would you interact with it?
2021-02-07T14:18:05Z pve: nij: a process that results in one or more parse trees, or for shallow parsing a sequence of chunks ("chunking")
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2021-02-07T14:19:11Z nij: pve: hm does sound complicated
2021-02-07T14:20:40Z ldb: nij: it is possible for me to change that program to adapt my need
2021-02-07T14:21:14Z pve: nij: depends entirely on what you want to accomplish, maybe split-sequence is enough for your task
2021-02-07T14:21:35Z nij: ldb: yeah then you can definitely use lisp to communicate with your program . not sure what's the cleanest way to do it.
2021-02-07T14:22:23Z nij: pve: I think so too. With some help of cl-ppcre. M trying :)
2021-02-07T14:23:02Z ldb racket is notoriously slow btw
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2021-02-07T14:23:15Z nij: racket lang?
2021-02-07T14:24:16Z ldb: yes, worse than python in (for performance) my opinion
2021-02-07T14:24:25Z nij: how about cl?
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2021-02-07T14:26:56Z ldb: ccl is good for interactive development
2021-02-07T14:28:12Z ldb: sbcl usually takes longer to compile code, but is much better on numeric
2021-02-07T14:29:48Z nij: comparing to python? speedwise
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2021-02-07T14:32:10Z ldb: usually, you cannot feel the difference between cl or python if just eval some expresions in repl
2021-02-07T14:32:54Z ldb: but for racket, you can feel that 0.1 sec delay after pressed return key
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2021-02-07T14:34:42Z ldb: it's that worse
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2021-02-07T14:45:26Z beach: nij: I often see people say that Python is 50 times slower than SBCL for executing code.
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2021-02-07T14:46:55Z beach: nij: drmeister once showed us a comparison between programming languages, concerning the energy used per computation unit.  Common Lisp was pretty good and Python was really bad.  I don't know how they did their measurements, though.
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2021-02-07T14:51:43Z beach: Oh, it's a paper: "Energy Efficiency across Programming Languages".
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2021-02-07T15:21:07Z nij: My code is awful: repeating a lot, not functional, unclean deconstructive method.. https://bpa.st/VE4F4   Any suggestion?
2021-02-07T15:21:34Z nij: I'm tempted to use macro, to abstract the syntax. But I think there's a better way to do it with functions.
2021-02-07T15:22:06Z phoe: what's string-?
2021-02-07T15:22:14Z _death: looks like you want REDUCE
2021-02-07T15:22:24Z nij: (string- "I have a dog" "a") => "I hve dog"
2021-02-07T15:23:19Z phoe: oooh, okay - then as _death mentioned, (reduce #'string- result ...)
2021-02-07T15:23:56Z nij: OH that's a way. Note taken.
2021-02-07T15:24:16Z beach: Or you can use LOOP if you prefer that.
2021-02-07T15:24:17Z nij: But to do it more functionally.. this is just to apply a sequence of functions on some element:
2021-02-07T15:24:21Z _death: but instead of reducing, you may REMOVE-IF
2021-02-07T15:24:25Z nij: (f4 (f3 (f2 (f1 x))))
2021-02-07T15:24:37Z nij: beach: no no loop.. at least for now
2021-02-07T15:24:49Z beach: *sigh*
2021-02-07T15:24:59Z nij: so im thinking of using (magic-apply f_ '(1 2 3 4) x)
2021-02-07T15:25:06Z nij: beach: :(
2021-02-07T15:25:16Z phoe: nij: a sequence of functions? you can use alexandria:compose for that
2021-02-07T15:25:41Z phoe: but, uh
2021-02-07T15:25:58Z phoe: REDUCE is already as functional as you can get, completely zero side effects
2021-02-07T15:26:24Z nij: ok i will use reduce
2021-02-07T15:26:35Z nij: I just think that there's a general pattern lacking behind
2021-02-07T15:27:29Z beach: I suspect REDUCE is that pattern.
2021-02-07T15:27:47Z _death: (defun qstring- (x y) `(string- ,x ,y)) (reduce #'qstring- (list "\\." "\\?" "," ":" ";" "!" (string #\Newline)) :initial-value 'result)
2021-02-07T15:28:02Z phoe: (funcall (alexandria:compose #'prin1-to-string #'1+ #'-) 42)
2021-02-07T15:28:07Z phoe: ;=> "-41"
2021-02-07T15:28:21Z nij: yep REDUCE is that.. like Foldr
2021-02-07T15:28:36Z phoe: (f4 (f3 (f2 (f1 x)))) === (funcall (alexandria:compose #'f4 #'f3 #'f2 #'f1) x)
2021-02-07T15:28:58Z nij: phoe: almost! but f_ hasn't been abstractified yet
2021-02-07T15:29:09Z phoe: what's f_?
2021-02-07T15:29:29Z phoe: and what's magic-apply?
2021-02-07T15:29:30Z nij: (seq-apply (mapcar f_ '(1 2 3 4)) x)
2021-02-07T15:29:50Z nij: undefined, phoe :(
2021-02-07T15:29:54Z phoe: I still don't get it
2021-02-07T15:30:20Z phoe: what is f_ and why do you pass '(1 2 3 4) there?
2021-02-07T15:30:32Z nij: (f_ 1) => #'f1
2021-02-07T15:30:49Z phoe: oh, it grabs a fdefinition by name
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2021-02-07T15:31:18Z nij: sequencial piping/filtering
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2021-02-07T15:31:27Z phoe: (defun f_ (x) (fdefinition (intern (format nil "F~D" x)))) but I'd consider that dirty code
2021-02-07T15:31:51Z phoe: mostly because F1 F2 F3 F4 are ugly function names
2021-02-07T15:32:10Z nij: yeah i'm too used to curring :(
2021-02-07T15:32:27Z phoe: oh, alexandria:curry and alexandria:rcurry are there for you
2021-02-07T15:34:20Z Alfr: nij, does (mapcar (lambda (f) (funcall f x)) (mapcar #'f_ '(1 2 3 4))) do what you intend? Just a thought though.
2021-02-07T15:34:58Z nij: almost! i think i have a clue now
2021-02-07T15:35:01Z nij: writing it up
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2021-02-07T15:38:21Z _death: (reduce #'funcall '(f1 f2 f3 f4) :initial-value arg :from-end t)
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2021-02-07T15:41:41Z nij: yeah reduce is the cleanest way so far
2021-02-07T15:41:47Z nij: (still writing my own @@)
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2021-02-07T15:46:14Z nij: https://bpa.st/O5CD2
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2021-02-07T15:47:06Z nij: pipe flow chart:
2021-02-07T15:47:28Z nij: '(1 2 3 4) -> (f4 f3 f2 f1) -> (f4 (f3 (f2 (f1 _))))
2021-02-07T15:48:13Z nij: But it seems terrible to write this in CL as it is lisp-2, uses unnative currying, .. and the lambdas crowded the space up real quick.
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2021-02-07T15:53:06Z cl-arthur: nij: why not just make string- take a set of marks instead of a mark.
2021-02-07T15:54:25Z nij: cl-arthur: the end of that is what i want
2021-02-07T15:54:34Z nij: right? it's exactly (f4 (f3 (f2 (f1 _))))
2021-02-07T15:55:03Z nij: I'm just autistically trying to build your string- from a simpler block @@
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2021-02-07T15:58:43Z nij: phoe: I think what I really want here is some sort of monadic arrows.
2021-02-07T15:59:05Z phoe: what sort of syntax are you thinking of?
2021-02-07T15:59:12Z nij: we have (-<> stuff (form <>)) already
2021-02-07T15:59:16Z cl-arthur: depends on the order your #'compose works - might be you're doing (f1 (f2 (f3 (f4 _)))).
2021-02-07T16:00:08Z nij: (dual-apply x (list-<> stuffs (form <>)))
2021-02-07T16:00:22Z nij: oh no sorry hold on the last one is incorrect
2021-02-07T16:00:44Z phoe: please give me a concrete example, I don't know what X or LIST-<> or STUFFS or FORM is
2021-02-07T16:01:23Z _death: if your goal is to obfuscate matters..
2021-02-07T16:01:27Z Nilby: nij: are you trying to remove the punctuation?
2021-02-07T16:01:43Z nij: Nilby: yes.. there're many ways indeed
2021-02-07T16:01:51Z Nilby: like: (remove-if (_ (position _ ".,?!")) "I have a dog, and you? Nope.")
2021-02-07T16:01:54Z nij: but i'm also hoping for a better (subjectively) syntax
2021-02-07T16:02:45Z nij: (list-<> '(1 2 3 4) (f_ <>))   ; => '(f1 f2 f3 f4)
2021-02-07T16:02:50Z Nilby: I feel like you might be over thinking it.
2021-02-07T16:03:03Z nij: (transform x '(f1 f2 f3 f4))   ; => (f4 (f3 (f2 (f1 x))))
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2021-02-07T16:04:11Z nij: yeah......ok :-( I will just use reduce..
2021-02-07T16:04:17Z phoe: TRANSFORM is gonna be REDUCE though
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2021-02-07T16:05:18Z cl-arthur: practically reimplementing (a subset of) reduce from the looks of it, yup
2021-02-07T16:05:39Z phoe: (defun transform (initial-value functions) (reduce #'funcall functions :initial-value initial-value :from-end t))
2021-02-07T16:05:45Z nij: yep
2021-02-07T16:05:51Z nij: I need to put this in my box.
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2021-02-07T16:06:08Z nij: I think reduce is a little bit too abstract for me.. even if they are the same
2021-02-07T16:06:24Z nij: mathematically I'm thinking of elements as dots and functions as arrows
2021-02-07T16:06:34Z nij: and the dots should pass through the arrows, which can be combined
2021-02-07T16:06:50Z nij: but that's just another perspective. i should try to do it in a more lispy way
2021-02-07T16:06:54Z nij: so sure.. use REDUCE!
2021-02-07T16:06:55Z phoe: you have been corrupted by haskell
2021-02-07T16:07:10Z nij: not haskell, but pure math
2021-02-07T16:07:27Z phoe: close enough.
2021-02-07T16:07:43Z nij: well actually haskell has this stuff too, it's called foldr, foldl
2021-02-07T16:08:05Z nij: i just feel uncomfortable putting elements and functions at the same level
2021-02-07T16:08:13Z phoe: what do you mean, the same level?
2021-02-07T16:11:11Z cl-arthur: pretty sure you can do arbitrary operations on functions in math too (e.g. differentiation maps functions to functions)
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2021-02-07T16:12:44Z nij: phoe: for example, with reduce the syntax looks like (reduce #'combine '(x f1 f2 f3 f4))
2021-02-07T16:13:03Z nij: where (combine X F) => (F X)
2021-02-07T16:13:19Z nij: but then x and the functions fn's are put in the same list
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2021-02-07T16:14:05Z _death: so use :initial-value
2021-02-07T16:14:11Z phoe: ^
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2021-02-07T16:14:16Z phoe: also, wanna see something scary?
2021-02-07T16:14:16Z nij: yes that makes it seem better
2021-02-07T16:14:24Z nij: phoe: please!
2021-02-07T16:14:59Z phoe: nij: (list 1 "2" :three "four" 'five #(6) (lambda () 7) '(8) (alexandria:plist-hash-table '(9 10)))
2021-02-07T16:15:29Z nij: lol
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2021-02-07T16:16:00Z phoe: the nightmares that programmers used to statically typed languages sometimes have
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2021-02-07T16:16:55Z nij: hehe
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2021-02-07T16:17:28Z phoe: but, yes, :initial-value is there for you for when you want to avoid mixing types in your sequences
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2021-02-07T16:17:58Z phoe: because I assumed that you wanted to keep '(f1 f2 f3 f4) to be a list of symbols, and you want x to be arbitrary data
2021-02-07T16:18:07Z phoe: s/assumed/assume/
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2021-02-07T17:47:20Z ioa: I'd like to check and add miniKanren embeddings in common-lisp to Cliki.net but I'm not sure where to add them. First I thought in "unification" but miniKanren is more than that, it's full relational programming. Any suggestions? (cc. phoe) In their website (minikanren.org) they say "miniKanren is an embedded Domain Specific Language for logic programming."
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2021-02-07T17:50:04Z ioa: FYI this is a list of Kanren implementations: http://minikanren.org/#implementations  There are 5 in common-lisp, although the first one already seems abandoned. :( (checking the rest now)
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2021-02-07T17:57:31Z ioa: The 2nd one is in "trying to implement miniKanren stage". Can't find the 3rd one. The 4th one just has 2 commits 3 years ago and no comments anywhere, will have to try if it works. And the 5th one is using the first one. :( :( :( This is sad.
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2021-02-07T18:01:36Z ioa: I guess then I'll have to try them out first, to see which ones work. Then I'll think about adding info to Cliki. Any opinions on my original question are welcome!
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2021-02-07T18:59:16Z albusp: I'm trying to (require) one of my modules from a file, and it had been already (load)ed from somewhere else, but I get the "don't know how to require" error. Should I try (provide)ing all my module files at the top, so that (require) can find them?
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2021-02-07T19:03:24Z _death: better to use asdf
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2021-02-07T19:04:47Z _death: require is implementation-dependent, so we can't say much about your issue without knowing which implementation you use.. that's one of its issues
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2021-02-07T19:05:21Z albusp: _death: I've heard that. Also I've read somewhere that if filename is same as the module you don't need to provide?
2021-02-07T19:05:43Z albusp: _death: this case is sbcl
2021-02-07T19:06:57Z _death: the sbcl manual has a paragraph about behavior of require (in section 7.9)
2021-02-07T19:07:41Z _death: nobody really uses it, so I'm not sure why you want to
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2021-02-07T19:08:23Z albusp: Also, CLHS notes that provide and require are deprecated. Is CLHS pointing people to seek an alternative? Is ASDF the obvious answer?
2021-02-07T19:08:58Z _death: in the last decade or so, yes, asdf is pretty much the obvious answer
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2021-02-07T19:12:38Z Nilby: albusp: I reccomend installing Quicklisp, copying a simple projects .asd file, altering for your thing, and symbolic linking it into ~/quicklisp/local-projects. If you're interested, later you could read the rather convoluted asdf manual.
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2021-02-07T19:15:36Z Nilby: or if you're just starting with simple things you can get by with just manually usaing "load" and/or compile-file
2021-02-07T19:16:19Z _death: the other day I saw someone post to the LISA (project from 2000 that's similar to production systems from the 1980s, with certainty factors and all ;) mailing list about creating a fork.. I check it out and nostalgy overflows as I open https://github.com/gpwwjr/LISA/blob/main/misc/asdf.lisp
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2021-02-07T19:17:32Z albusp: thanks Nilby. I have this simple structure, a couple of packages with some hierarchy, and don't want to load the same package multiple times. I think I'm getting some success by adding provide to the end of the package files. It feels clean this way.
2021-02-07T19:19:07Z Nilby: _death: wow. simpler times. #:hyperdocumentation
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2021-02-07T19:27:34Z Nilby: albusp: yes, I like the simplicity too. I even made my own require a long time ago. it's just a little quirky between implementations, and where/when it looks for files. And then there's the issue of compiling and compiler output.
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2021-02-07T19:31:35Z Nilby: _death: also the #+nil thing use to get triggered by trivial-features
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2021-02-07T19:33:05Z _death: what do you mean (about trivial-features)
2021-02-07T19:35:19Z Nilby: trivial-features would push NIL on *features* on some old obscure platforms that i used, activating crazy dead code
2021-02-07T19:35:38Z Nilby: and the #+nil joke in old asdf
2021-02-07T19:36:05Z _death: nasty
2021-02-07T19:37:21Z Nilby: it was maddening until I realized what was going on,
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2021-02-07T19:38:09Z Nilby: i still have in my .lisprc : (when (find :nil *features*) (error "NIL is in features!"))
2021-02-07T19:38:12Z _death: looking at asdf.lisp, the only place #+nil is used other than that smartassism is in *central-registry*.. which I guess could be modified in the implementation's rc file or something :)
2021-02-07T19:39:53Z Nilby: (push nil *features*) is yet another episode of "survive this sexp"
2021-02-07T19:41:16Z _death: reminds me of people changing *read-default-float-format* in a general context
2021-02-07T19:42:11Z _death: all is fine, until some code with single-float declarations and safety 0 nudges you into insanity because someone passed 5.31 to it
2021-02-07T19:42:11Z Nilby: yes, another good one
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2021-02-07T19:43:42Z Nilby: wow, let's keep everything rationals
2021-02-07T19:44:24Z _death: speaking of rationals, what about them integers?
2021-02-07T19:44:53Z _death: why does GCD not work on integers?
2021-02-07T19:45:03Z _death: I mean Gaussian integers of course
2021-02-07T19:45:15Z Nilby: exactly
2021-02-07T19:45:15Z _death: we need a new CL standard..
2021-02-07T19:45:53Z Nilby: agree
2021-02-07T19:46:16Z Nilby: we now see how the numeric tower can crumble
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2021-02-07T19:50:16Z Nilby: i think we should recode the numeric tower in p-adic church primes
2021-02-07T19:50:57Z phoe: Nilby: (push nil *features*) won't work
2021-02-07T19:51:09Z _death: :nil
2021-02-07T19:51:12Z phoe: you need to push :nil because #+ looks in the KEYWORD package which does not import CL:NIL
2021-02-07T19:51:45Z _death: the defensive nil'er uses #+cl:nil
2021-02-07T19:52:21Z Nilby is patching the "survive this sexp" game repo
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2021-02-07T19:56:21Z albusp: How can we tell lisp to ignore an undefined symbol for a class slot? I have this example and my-fn gives an obvious warning: https://www.codepile.net/pile/Ajy2W4QP
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2021-02-07T19:59:06Z Bike: even if you compile-file this whole thing?
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2021-02-07T20:14:33Z albusp: Bike: it doesn't after compile
2021-02-07T20:18:57Z phoe: albusp: if you are loading the file, then define my-fn earlier
2021-02-07T20:19:10Z phoe: if you are compiling the whole file, then this should be a non-issue
2021-02-07T20:19:18Z albusp: then the class is not defined warning for the function
2021-02-07T20:19:36Z phoe: class is not defined? what do you mean
2021-02-07T20:19:47Z phoe: MY-FN does not make use of class A in any way
2021-02-07T20:20:29Z albusp: sorry s2 not defined if function is before
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2021-02-07T20:21:25Z albusp: This is an example case of the cyclic definition I have
2021-02-07T20:21:25Z phoe: S2 does not need to be defined, it is a slot name
2021-02-07T20:21:33Z phoe: which implementation and version are you using?
2021-02-07T20:22:30Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2282#2282
2021-02-07T20:22:33Z phoe: no error for me
2021-02-07T20:22:42Z phoe: no warning for me
2021-02-07T20:22:46Z phoe: everything is clean
2021-02-07T20:23:05Z albusp: goodness my example was bad. Actually I should've added an accessor for s2. Let me fix
2021-02-07T20:23:50Z albusp: this is a better example: https://www.codepile.net/pile/b1MxEPpY
2021-02-07T20:25:04Z phoe: I never really worry about such things, because I compile whole files most of the time
2021-02-07T20:25:08Z phoe: or rather, ASDF does it for me
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2021-02-07T20:25:59Z phoe: I'd compile the file and then load the resulting FASL to get the goodness of having the compiler treat the whole file as a compilation unit
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2021-02-07T20:40:40Z albusp: phoe: thanks for checking. oh well, you're probably right, don't worry. I was wondering if an ignorable declaration is possible with slots
2021-02-07T20:42:20Z _death: you can wrap your load form with with-compilation-unit, that may help
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2021-02-07T20:45:21Z pve: I'm wondering if there is an established technique to "scan" a stream for a string that would correspond to the characters READ would have consumed.
2021-02-07T20:45:28Z [d]: <_​death#0000> you can wrap your load form with with-compilation-unit, that may help
2021-02-07T20:45:29Z pve: Silly example: (with-input-from-string (s "( 123 ) some more stuff") (scan s)) => "( 123 )"
2021-02-07T20:45:29Z [d]: <p​ve#0000> I'm wondering if there is an established technique to "scan" a stream for a string that would correspond to the characters READ would have consumed.
2021-02-07T20:45:30Z [d]: <a​lbusp#0000> phoe: thanks for checking. oh well, you're probably right, don't worry. I was wondering if an ignorable declaration is possible with slots
2021-02-07T20:45:31Z [d]: <p​ve#0000> Silly example: (with-input-from-string (s "( 123 ) some more stuff") (scan s)) => "( 123 )"
2021-02-07T20:46:04Z [d]: <_​death#0000> [edit]:
2021-02-07T20:46:04Z [d]: <p​ve#0000> [edit]:
2021-02-07T20:46:05Z [d]: <a​lbusp#0000> [edit]:
2021-02-07T20:46:07Z [d]: <p​ve#0000> [edit]:
2021-02-07T20:48:12Z _death: pve: maybe you can utilize read-from-string's second value
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2021-02-07T20:51:25Z pve: _death: Yes that would work, but I'm not sure I can collect everything in the stream up to EOF into a string.. need to investigate further
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2021-02-07T20:52:28Z _death: oh, also check out make-echo-stream
2021-02-07T20:53:01Z pve: let me see
2021-02-07T20:53:12Z _death: (with-output-to-string (out) (with-input-from-string (stream "( 123 ) some more stuff") (let ((e (make-echo-stream stream out))) (read e))))
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2021-02-07T20:55:14Z pve: _death: thanks, you made my day :)
2021-02-07T20:57:34Z _death: I don't think I have any code that uses echo streams, so it's an interesting use case
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2021-02-07T21:05:49Z phoe: Xach: was float-features updated for the recent quicklisp dist?
2021-02-07T21:06:18Z phoe: the Jan 2021 dist does not seem to have the most recent changes from https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features/blob/master/float-features.lisp that export e.g. SHORT-FLOAT-NAN
2021-02-07T21:10:50Z mfiano: phoe: That was commited before the dist release, but only merged yesterday
2021-02-07T21:11:28Z Xach: aha
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2021-02-08T02:09:02Z dbotton: There is nothing like working on a gui / web page etc and modifying it live with no need to reload etc I really love Common-Lisp, even just code in general is like modeling clay instead of flat paintings.
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2021-02-08T02:11:09Z dbotton: No really point in saying this here, but just wanted to show gratitude for the help given me by everyone and the great tools you all work on
2021-02-08T02:12:27Z dbotton: Is there a way to setup a "secure" lisp image that will limit system access etc?
2021-02-08T02:13:05Z dbotton: It once where letting someone eval code doesn't propose a danger beyond a crash
2021-02-08T02:14:03Z dbotton: It once = one
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2021-02-08T02:27:29Z dbotton: b
2021-02-08T02:27:56Z dbotton: (Sorry fingers... wrong window)
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2021-02-08T02:42:56Z loke[m]: dbotton: I don't think much work has been done on that topic.
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2021-02-08T02:47:03Z dbotton: I thought I saw something about sicl having that
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2021-02-08T03:19:05Z PuercoPop: dbotton: it is in the sense of using first class environments to restrict the functions a lisp repl has access to. But not in the sense of say, restricting which part of the filesystem a syscall can access
2021-02-08T03:19:21Z PuercoPop: *sicl did some work on that topic in the senese of ...
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2021-02-08T03:20:46Z dbotton: Thanks
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2021-02-08T03:22:59Z PuercoPop: There was a presenting about it a while back. https://youtube.com/watch?v=gE6SsLAZ4Mo&t=258
2021-02-08T03:26:26Z PuercoPop: For the other sense you could look into customizing SBCL's main entry point (check the file in src/runtime/main.c) and use OpenBSD's pledge for sandboxing
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2021-02-08T04:01:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-08T11:54:32Z Posterdati: hi
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2021-02-08T11:54:50Z Posterdati: is it safe to use methods with structures?
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2021-02-08T11:55:02Z Posterdati: :) please...
2021-02-08T11:55:28Z jackdaniel: it is
2021-02-08T11:55:42Z jackdaniel: if you mean: methods that specialize on a structure class
2021-02-08T11:56:08Z Posterdati: yes
2021-02-08T11:56:24Z ey[m]: What is the best way to check if quicklisp is available in an environment ?
2021-02-08T11:56:47Z jackdaniel: maybe (find-package "QUICKLISP") ?
2021-02-08T11:56:53Z Posterdati: jackdaniel: thanks
2021-02-08T11:56:58Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-02-08T11:57:24Z jackdaniel: you may even specialize methods on builtin classes (like float)
2021-02-08T11:57:43Z ey[m]: jackdaniel: thanks
2021-02-08T11:58:38Z jackdaniel: mind, that {short,single,double,long}-float /are not/ specified to be a builtin class, so if you do specialize a method on one of these the implementation may happily error for you (it probably won't though, because they are usefull not mandated builtin classes)
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2021-02-08T12:08:16Z Nilby: I used to think that not being able to specialize on something like (unsigned-byte 8) was terrible, but now I realize that the CL type system is TOO powerful, and the choices seem to be either dumb down the type system or slow down and confound CLOS with mostly pointless type matching backflips, so it's a reasonable compromise.
2021-02-08T12:10:18Z Nilby: that said I think it might be reasonable to add a few more builtin types
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2021-02-08T12:17:14Z jackdaniel: (defmethod foo ((elt (satisfies foo))) …)
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2021-02-08T12:22:54Z Nilby: Usually I like limitless power, but I'm fine with not being able to do that.
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2021-02-08T12:25:13Z _death: reminded of https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/gf-cond.txt
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2021-02-08T12:35:06Z shidima: Is there a way to delete objects from my repl session?
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2021-02-08T12:38:32Z _death: my first thought was (progn (setf ** (setf *** (setf // (setf /// nil)))) (sb-ext:gc :full t)) but maybe you mean something else ;)
2021-02-08T12:38:53Z jackdaniel: and slime-clear-all-presentations ,)
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2021-02-08T12:41:55Z heisig: My favorite way of deleting objects is (change-class object 'deleted-object), where deleted-object is (defclass deleted-object ()).
2021-02-08T12:42:24Z heisig: It has the advantage that you can add 'finalizers' on update-instance-for-different-class :)
2021-02-08T12:42:50Z flip214: heisig: +1
2021-02-08T12:43:15Z flip214: the only problem is that security-sensitive slots in the old instance are not accessible anymore
2021-02-08T12:43:26Z flip214: to overwrite them, for example
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2021-02-08T12:43:58Z jmercouris: happy Mollusk Monday!
2021-02-08T12:44:31Z heisig: flip214: What is a security-sensitive slot?
2021-02-08T12:45:07Z jackdaniel: (password :initform "very secret" :initarg :password :accessor %password #|accessor is obscured for security|#) ;-)
2021-02-08T12:45:59Z jmercouris: maybe the whole point is that they are slots without accessors in their slot definition and have hand-implemented accessors
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2021-02-08T12:46:51Z _death: jackdaniel: I guess it should be (copy-seq "very secret").. then you (fill password #\*)
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2021-02-08T12:47:23Z _death: and how do functional languages handle this?
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2021-02-08T12:47:32Z jmercouris: what exactly? secrets?
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2021-02-08T12:47:41Z _death: zeroing secrets
2021-02-08T12:47:51Z jmercouris: probably via IO I would guess
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2021-02-08T12:48:04Z _death: not sure what you mean
2021-02-08T12:48:06Z jmercouris: the secret should never live in the VM of a functional language
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2021-02-08T12:48:27Z jmercouris: I don't know how to express what I am thinking
2021-02-08T12:48:44Z aeth: _death: remove all references to it and force a GC?
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2021-02-08T12:49:01Z jmercouris: I am kind of saying interact with it only via streams
2021-02-08T12:49:28Z _death: aeth: that doesn't ensure that the object is collected, or that memory is zeroed
2021-02-08T12:49:40Z heisig: The plan for SICL/CLOSOS is to use capabilities for such things.  No capability for reading the password means you don't get to read the password.
2021-02-08T12:49:50Z flip214: there might well be accessors, it's just that their content should be removed lexically and not stay around in the heap, surfacing on a core dump or dump
2021-02-08T12:49:51Z aeth: _death: yeah, and it itself isn't a pure function
2021-02-08T12:50:31Z heisig: Zeroing a password sounds like protecting yourself against out-of-bounds reads.  And why would any sane programming language allow that?
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2021-02-08T12:50:49Z jmercouris: on the other hand, can we trust *any* memory?
2021-02-08T12:50:57Z _death: heisig: maybe against interprocess reads
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2021-02-08T12:51:13Z jmercouris: we MUST have it in memory at some point to process it
2021-02-08T12:51:23Z jmercouris: unless you can process it as a stream char by char
2021-02-08T12:51:25Z aeth: heisig: Almost any non-trivial program to the point where you'd care about handling passwords is going to use CFFI, and the OS itself is basically one big CFFI.
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2021-02-08T12:52:31Z jmercouris: I think if your system is compromised by some malicious actor, you are already out of luck
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2021-02-08T12:52:38Z jmercouris: worrying about what exists in the stack is pointless
2021-02-08T12:52:51Z heisig: aeth: 1. I am trolling.  2. The plan for SICL/CLOSOS is to have all software written in Common Lisp and to have a reasonably trustworthy compiler.
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2021-02-08T12:52:59Z flip214: heisig: I see it the same way as a lexical variable - that doesn't spill into outer scopes too, so why should my secret be visible more than necessary?
2021-02-08T12:53:41Z jmercouris: I don't think you should worry about it
2021-02-08T12:53:42Z flip214: heisig: even 2 is not enough - /proc/PID/mem or pulling the RAM might still leak secrets.
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2021-02-08T12:53:47Z jmercouris: but that is just my 2 cents
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2021-02-08T12:54:02Z jmercouris: you know what else could leak secrets?
2021-02-08T12:54:05Z jmercouris: being held hostage
2021-02-08T12:54:06Z aeth: jmercouris: Well, some degree of redundancy has a point. It's called defense in depth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_in_depth_(computing)
2021-02-08T12:54:15Z jmercouris: but it is wholly unnecessary to protect yourself against all eventualities
2021-02-08T12:54:34Z jmercouris: if someone can read the contents of ram, you are already fully compromised
2021-02-08T12:54:43Z jmercouris: it doesn't matter how careful you are
2021-02-08T12:54:53Z jmercouris: they could even alter the execution of your program to circumvent your guards
2021-02-08T12:55:12Z heisig: flip214: If you write your entire system in Common Lisp (which is the highly ambitious plan), there will be no /proc/PID/mem.
2021-02-08T12:55:25Z aeth: jmercouris: That requires them to alter the execution of your program, where we win via security by obscurity being #lisp
2021-02-08T12:55:26Z Nilby: be the kernel and only have the secret in registers, or don't let the secrets leave your enclave hardware
2021-02-08T12:55:40Z heisig: Freezing the RAM and pulling it out still works.  But that is a much narrower attack vector.
2021-02-08T12:56:37Z Nilby: oh and make your own chip that doesn't include spyware
2021-02-08T12:56:57Z Nilby: like intel, amd and most arm
2021-02-08T12:57:16Z _death: heisig: it still matters.. the existence of tools like PANDA make it clear :)
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2021-02-08T12:58:29Z jmercouris: P A N D A
2021-02-08T12:58:32Z _death: or rather, Volatility.. I always confuse the names
2021-02-08T12:58:42Z jmercouris: V O L A T I L I T Y
2021-02-08T12:59:20Z jmercouris: you know, ultimately at the end of the day, we are running on multi user/multi process systems
2021-02-08T12:59:24Z jmercouris: there is no such thing as security in this case
2021-02-08T12:59:40Z jmercouris: any compromised program can bring down the whole system
2021-02-08T12:59:44Z _death: probably because I first encountered them in this post https://moyix.blogspot.com/2014/07/breaking-spotify-drm-with-panda.html
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2021-02-08T13:05:51Z flip214: heisig: plan to have a MOVfuscator compiler plugin as well
2021-02-08T13:07:31Z heisig: The computing system I really want (and for which I'm willing to work a few decades) runs only safe code (preferably CL) and free software (as in, the compiler maintains a bidirectional mapping between any piece of assembler and the corresponding source code).
2021-02-08T13:08:23Z heisig: The main way of protecting myself from malicious code in such an environment would be to only run code from trusted parties.  And if they try to fool me once, they are not a trusted party anymore.
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2021-02-08T13:09:26Z heisig: If everyone did that, we would have very few exploits.  A developer would have to sacrifice his entire reputation to roll out an exploit, and they might still get caught by some review process.
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2021-02-08T13:10:11Z flip214: heisig: yeah, but as long as there are quite anonymous ways (github account is cheap) that won't really help
2021-02-08T13:10:33Z flip214: you just need an AI to produce a few thousand good-looking commits against some repo to build a reputation
2021-02-08T13:10:48Z Nilby: heisig: I agree, but sadly I don't trust firmware either
2021-02-08T13:12:08Z heisig: I know, what I describe is essentially sci-fi.  But if enough people work on it, we could reach that state eventually.
2021-02-08T13:12:15Z _death: heisig: maybe my early background of reverse engineering is responsible, but it always seemed strange to me to talk about "source code" in relation to free software.. disassembling meant I could read, modify, and share the code, even if it's not the "source code".. and free software could be about permission to do just those things, without reference to a "source code"
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2021-02-08T13:13:08Z _death: is DISASSEMBLE not enough? ;)
2021-02-08T13:13:23Z heisig: Nilby: Neither do I.  But we cannot stop fixing the world of software just because we haven't solved every other problem yet.
2021-02-08T13:14:24Z Nilby: heisig: agree. I've been try for years to replace as much of my stack with CL as possible. I wonder how far I have left to go.
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2021-02-08T13:15:47Z Nilby: _death: I have a habit of code reviewing binaries, but it's harder, and i'm usually less condifdent
2021-02-08T13:16:07Z _death: Nilby: for many years HIEW was my anti virus :)
2021-02-08T13:16:10Z heisig: _death: The FSF defines source code as the 'preferred form for modification'.  I hope assembler is not your preferred representation for modifying software :)
2021-02-08T13:16:55Z _death: heisig: I understand.. it's mostly a tongue-in-cheek rant..
2021-02-08T13:17:03Z Nilby: _death: nice. that thing is awesome
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2021-02-08T13:23:14Z lukego: I'm just having my first serious look at SCREAMER. It's pretty cool, right?
2021-02-08T13:23:54Z _death: lukego: yeah.. I used it's in some solutions for aoc2020.. that also resulted in a patch or two
2021-02-08T13:24:17Z Xach: oh no, someone created a project named "cloak" and it's unrelated to the JVM-in-CL project from 20 years ago
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2021-02-08T13:30:11Z Nilby: it's a shame because it's a clever name, since java was oringally called oak
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2021-02-08T14:39:23Z Cthulhux: more like "urgh"
2021-02-08T14:39:29Z nij: Hi, is there lisp packages that take screencasts? I'm currently using ffmpeg but would like to get rid of bashism :P
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2021-02-08T14:41:05Z rogersm: Is there any way to return-form from a lambda without using block?
2021-02-08T14:41:06Z minion: rogersm, memo from phoe: there is a little bit of inspector usage in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkqQq2Hwt5o
2021-02-08T14:41:06Z minion: rogersm, memo from beach: I recommend you use Clouseau instead.  It is way more competent than the SLIME inspector.
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2021-02-08T14:42:35Z beach: rogersm: No, there is no such way.  And there is no such thing as "a lambda" in Common Lisp.  There is the concept of a "lambda expression" which is just data, and there is a concept of a "function", whether created directly using the LAMBDA operator or some other operator.
2021-02-08T14:42:58Z rogersm: thanks
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2021-02-08T14:43:04Z beach: Pleasure.
2021-02-08T14:43:29Z nij: So there's no way to get a lambda expression from a function, in general?
2021-02-08T14:43:41Z nij: (I asked this a while ago but didn't understand.)
2021-02-08T14:43:42Z beach: clhs function-lambda-expression
2021-02-08T14:43:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
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2021-02-08T14:43:53Z beach: nij: But it is allowed to return NIL.
2021-02-08T14:43:55Z Bike: the implementation isn't required to keep source forms around
2021-02-08T14:44:15Z beach: nij: If that weren't the case, there would be no conforming commercial Common Lisp implementations.
2021-02-08T14:45:05Z nij: Hmm.. so after compiling a lambda expression to a function, I cannot expect the function "remembers" the lambda expression?
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2021-02-08T14:45:12Z beach: nij: Plus, not every function can be expressed as a lambda expression only.
2021-02-08T14:45:15Z Bike: correct
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2021-02-08T14:45:33Z nij: beach: Like which function cannot?!
2021-02-08T14:45:38Z _death: nij: you could do it yourself.. see pjb's ibcl for example
2021-02-08T14:45:46Z nij: Bike: then the question is.. how do I compile so that the result function remembers?
2021-02-08T14:45:46Z beach: nij: A function can close over any number of variables that are not part of the function itself.
2021-02-08T14:45:52Z flip214: isn't the source form required if the function is declared INLINE?
2021-02-08T14:45:54Z Bike: can't
2021-02-08T14:46:06Z Bike: flip214: there is no requirement for the implementation to do any inlining ever
2021-02-08T14:46:27Z nij: beach: close?
2021-02-08T14:46:37Z Bike: like a closure
2021-02-08T14:46:41Z beach: nij: (let ((x 234)) (lambda (y) (+ x y)))
2021-02-08T14:46:45Z Nilby: but in practice, you can get the lambda list
2021-02-08T14:47:14Z flip214: just have ASDF include all the source files in the image as well
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2021-02-08T14:47:47Z beach: nij: The function defined by the lambda expression "closes over" the variable X.
2021-02-08T14:48:08Z beach: nij: It's a standard concept in programming languages.
2021-02-08T14:48:47Z flip214: nij: "Let over Lambda" explores that concept in depth.
2021-02-08T14:48:55Z nij: Oh so this is an example of a function that's not a (pure) lambda.
2021-02-08T14:49:19Z beach: nij: There is no such thing as "a [pure] lambda".
2021-02-08T14:49:38Z nij: Rephrase: Oh so this is an example of a function that's not defined by a pure lambda expression.
2021-02-08T14:49:56Z beach: You can say that.  But it's known as "a closure".
2021-02-08T14:50:28Z nij: Then is there anyway to turn any compiled function into this form?
2021-02-08T14:50:38Z Bike: into what form?
2021-02-08T14:50:47Z nij: closure form
2021-02-08T14:50:54Z nij: (let ((..)) (lambda ..))
2021-02-08T14:50:58Z Bike: well the thing is closures aren't necessarily independent
2021-02-08T14:51:03Z beach: nij: The LET is not part of the function.
2021-02-08T14:51:15Z Bike: if you have (let (x) (lambda () x) (lambda (y) (setf x y))), those closures refer to the _same_ binding
2021-02-08T14:51:35Z Bike: if you used this thing and got them back as (let (x) (lambda () x)) and (let (x) (lambda (y) (setf x y))) those would be different
2021-02-08T14:51:50Z beach: nij: Surely, you have encountered closures in your previous programming career, no?
2021-02-08T14:52:15Z nij: beach: I think I understand what a closure is. Not trained formally thought.
2021-02-08T14:52:19Z nij: s/thought/though/
2021-02-08T14:53:01Z beach: nij: As I recall, you have said that you used several different languages in the past, no?  Maybe none of them allowed for closures?
2021-02-08T14:53:36Z nij: Yeah I've used superficially. Lemme think..
2021-02-08T14:53:45Z beach: I mean, even Pascal had (has?) closures, though not first class, as I recall.
2021-02-08T14:54:30Z _death: nij: you mentioned currying the other day..
2021-02-08T14:54:40Z nij: _death: yeah.
2021-02-08T14:55:09Z nij: see, I'm not formally trained, so I while I have my mental images of what they are, I cannot be sure if I understand 100% as all others do.
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2021-02-08T14:56:19Z varjag: "WARNING: /opt/homebrew/bin/ecl is loading libcrypto in an unsafe way", and an abort
2021-02-08T14:56:26Z mfiano: Read Let Over Lambda for a mind explosion, though please don't carry over that coding style to production code :)
2021-02-08T14:56:36Z varjag: when trying to compile cl+ssl on the latest ecl/big sur
2021-02-08T14:56:45Z varjag: anyone seen that?
2021-02-08T14:57:02Z nij: mfiano: I plan to read it soon once I finish writing my personal scripts.
2021-02-08T14:57:06Z nij: It seems fun :)
2021-02-08T14:57:12Z nij: But why shouldn't I carry over that style?
2021-02-08T14:57:44Z mfiano: He does not use conventions in so many ways, and makes heavy use of anaphors.
2021-02-08T14:57:57Z mfiano: Conventions are important to follow
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2021-02-08T14:59:28Z nij: ooops :-( I'm afraid I'm not capable of distinguish which is convention and which isn't..
2021-02-08T14:59:33Z mfiano: THe book should be read as "hey look what you can do with macros", not "this is how you should use macros"
2021-02-08T15:00:23Z _death: maybe there should be something like Graham Crackers for other Lisp books
2021-02-08T15:00:48Z nij: _death: haha what would such books be about?
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2021-02-08T15:01:05Z _death: nij: I mean something like https://courses.cs.northwestern.edu/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html
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2021-02-08T15:01:46Z nij: OH nice! Thanks for sharing.
2021-02-08T15:04:33Z mfiano: Speaking of conventions, what other "style guides" are there besides the LUV and Google style guides? I would think the former is not as visible as the latter, and they conflict each other in so many ways.
2021-02-08T15:05:03Z _death: the latter is much more controversial
2021-02-08T15:06:18Z mfiano: It seems they recommend an arbitrary 100 column maximum.
2021-02-08T15:06:37Z nij: mfiano: what is LUV?
2021-02-08T15:06:42Z mfiano: First thing I saw at a quick glance after several years since reading it, that is most definitely different
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2021-02-08T15:07:23Z mfiano: Lisp Users and Vendors Conference slides from Kent Pitman and Peter Norvig
2021-02-08T15:08:45Z phoe: 30
2021-02-08T15:08:47Z phoe: oops
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2021-02-08T15:19:13Z varjag: ok looks like unversioned dylib loading issue on newer osxes
2021-02-08T15:20:36Z phoe: varjag: https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/issues/114
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2021-02-08T15:37:15Z varjag: phoe: that did the trick!
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2021-02-08T16:01:23Z beach: flip214: It would be unwise for inlining to use the original S-expression.  There would be all kinds of issues like variable capture, multiple macro expansions, etc.
2021-02-08T16:03:04Z flip214: beach: yes, of course. I thought the questions was for documentation/reference purposes.
2021-02-08T16:03:16Z beach: I see.
2021-02-08T16:03:35Z flip214: thanks for the heads-up, anyway!
2021-02-08T16:03:46Z flip214: you're a delight to have around.
2021-02-08T16:04:01Z beach: Oh, thanks! *blush*
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2021-02-08T16:06:30Z nij: I have liberate some of my recording shell scripts into their Lisp form (https://bpa.st/RLAVO).. But it's still pretty shelly :-( Accepting any suggestion!
2021-02-08T16:06:40Z beach: nij: Maybe it's time for some formal training then.  Perhaps read a book such as "Programming Language Concepts" by Peter Sestoft.
2021-02-08T16:08:40Z nij: seems like a great book :D
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2021-02-08T16:09:46Z Nilby: nij: You could try using this, https://github.com/zkat/cl-ffmpeg and maybe bring it up to date if it doesn't work.
2021-02-08T16:10:57Z beach: nij: I read that as "thank you, but no thank you".
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2021-02-08T16:12:58Z nij: beach: not really
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2021-02-08T16:13:08Z nij: many things to read, and I have added that to my lib
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2021-02-08T16:13:16Z nij: one day i'll might it ;)
2021-02-08T16:13:20Z beach: OK.
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2021-02-08T16:18:04Z phoe: ProgAlgs is live on HN, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26066340
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2021-02-08T18:26:52Z Nilby: nij: even with my very lispamatizing setup, the issue is trouble is still ffmpeg https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2285#2285
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2021-02-08T18:57:53Z varjag: did roswell get a hard dependency on libcurl3 with the last release?
2021-02-08T18:58:04Z varjag: suddenly my ci pipeline's crashing
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2021-02-08T19:06:04Z varjag: oh yes it did
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2021-02-08T19:39:48Z nij: I have a function that makes sound indefinitely. Without changing its "internal", how can I let it stop after 3 seconds? https://bpa.st/N2JQ
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2021-02-08T19:41:00Z nij: Hoping for things like:   (terminate-in 3 (loop [..]))  that runs the loop, and kills it after 3 seconds.
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2021-02-08T19:48:27Z _death: if you have a loop, you can do it there.. but for a less graceful way there's timers (see sbcl manual).. also I think there's a trivial-timers library though I've not used it
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2021-02-08T19:48:52Z nij: yep i'm planning to use a timer to kill a running loop
2021-02-08T19:48:59Z nij: but how can i identify the loop?
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2021-02-08T19:49:33Z _death: what do you mean identify the loop?.. in your loop you could test for a flag
2021-02-08T19:49:59Z nij: That's the trickier part.. I don't want to modify the loop internally.
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2021-02-08T19:50:10Z Nilby: if you're doing things at the same time, you're either using threads or processes, so you have ether a thread or a process id
2021-02-08T19:50:49Z nij: Maybe there should be something like:
2021-02-08T19:50:50Z _death: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#index-Asynchronous-Timeout
2021-02-08T19:51:04Z nij: (run-with-id (make-id (loop [..]) :id 1234))
2021-02-08T19:51:11Z nij: (kill-id :id 1234)
2021-02-08T19:51:30Z nij: OH!
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2021-02-08T19:53:50Z Nilby: or if you're in a single thread you can just check get-univeral-time
2021-02-08T19:57:35Z nij: I will also check it. Thank you :)
2021-02-08T19:58:52Z recalloc: It seems if I leave a lispcord bot running overnight, I get a memory fault
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2021-02-08T22:12:33Z nij: Woah! There's a lispy cron "mcron" written in Guile. Is there anything close written in common lisp?
2021-02-08T22:12:35Z nij: https://www.gnu.org/software/mcron/manual/mcron.html
2021-02-08T22:14:05Z nij: The closest I found is clerk.. which doesn't run as a daemon: https://github.com/tsikov/clerk
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2021-02-08T23:13:00Z recalloc: I made a dependency tree to help me figure out where in my dependencies my memory leak should be, but TBH it probably made me more confused than before
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2021-02-08T23:14:05Z recalloc: https://0x0.st/-Hf0.png
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2021-02-08T23:19:53Z _death: so is it a memory fault or a memory leak
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2021-02-08T23:58:08Z jasom: Is there a library for comparing hash-tables by value?
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2021-02-08T23:59:33Z _death: library, or a function similar to equalp?
2021-02-08T23:59:47Z jasom: _death: can't use equalp because I care about string-cases
2021-02-09T00:00:00Z _death: jasom: right, that's why I say "similar"
2021-02-09T00:01:05Z jasom: There are enough "dimensions" to equality that it seems like an entire library could be written just devoted to equality (depth to descend, which structures to descend into, and which comparison operators for comparing terminals)
2021-02-09T00:01:22Z phoe: the famous kent paper describes this
2021-02-09T00:01:28Z phoe: minion: tell phoe about equality
2021-02-09T00:01:33Z minion: equality: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I?
2021-02-09T00:01:39Z phoe: gasp
2021-02-09T00:01:57Z phoe: minion: tell phoe about copying
2021-02-09T00:01:57Z minion: phoe: look at copying: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2021-02-09T00:02:00Z phoe: there
2021-02-09T00:02:27Z phoe: but, yes, I assume you could define your own equality function that does what you want and how deep you want
2021-02-09T00:02:49Z _death: yeah, a library could be written, but I'm not sure that it would be a better alternative than just writing the equality operator one needs
2021-02-09T00:02:51Z phoe: or a library that uses a tree-of-closures approach to customize your equality predicates
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2021-02-09T00:03:22Z jasom: I really would like a case-preserving equalp; it's the one equality function I have rewritten the most often.
2021-02-09T00:03:26Z phoe: the library would need to be named animal-farm
2021-02-09T00:03:43Z jasom: phoe: because some CONSes are more equal than others?
2021-02-09T00:03:53Z phoe: jasom: T
2021-02-09T00:04:19Z _death: equalp needs a :test keyword ;)
2021-02-09T00:04:32Z phoe: _death: I actually laughed
2021-02-09T00:04:41Z jasom: as did I
2021-02-09T00:04:45Z phoe: (equalp x y :test #'equalp)
2021-02-09T00:06:17Z phoe: we need operators like e, eq, eql, equl, equal, equalp, equal-p, eqv, eqv, equv, equiv, equivp, equivalent, equivalentp, equivalent-p
2021-02-09T00:06:26Z phoe: and, most of all, we need literally-the-same-thing-p
2021-02-09T00:06:47Z phoe: (and also the -? variants instead of the -p ones to convert some Schemers along the way)
2021-02-09T00:07:08Z _death: don't forget the negated variants.. neq has been reinvented many times
2021-02-09T00:07:24Z jasom: (defun animal-farm-p (x y &key (descend-into '(:list :vector :structure :hash-table)) depth (terminal-test #'equal))
2021-02-09T00:09:00Z phoe: (animal-farm-p x y :descend-into '(:darkness))
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2021-02-09T00:12:05Z jasom: (animal-farm-p x y :depth 3 (terminal-test (rassoc #'animal-farm-p :descend-into '(:vector :structure :hash-table) :terminal-test #'compare-alist-or-equal)) ;; <-- there we go "treat the first 3 levels of lists as lists, and any deeper lists as alists...
2021-02-09T00:12:12Z jasom: s/rassoc/rcurry
2021-02-09T00:12:51Z _death: (compare x y '((number =) (string equal) (vector element >) (hash-table :test equal) (my-class slot x eq slot y equal)))
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2021-02-09T00:15:32Z _death: maybe (compare x and y using ...) to satisfy the kneejerks
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2021-02-09T00:17:08Z phoe: _death: oh no
2021-02-09T00:19:56Z _death: what, you don't like (compare p1 and p2 using key native-namestring and test equal when type-error return 'maybe) ?
2021-02-09T00:20:28Z _death: add quotes/hashquotes as necessary
2021-02-09T00:21:42Z phoe: how would you describe a predicate for threefold nested lists, the outermost compared via EQUALP, the middle via EQUAL, the innermost via EQL?
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2021-02-09T00:30:46Z _death: seems you want an "except on type" clause
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2021-02-09T01:57:44Z _death: https://gist.github.com/death/6a441602bd6acebda067dd900e56e256
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2021-02-09T01:58:20Z _death: enjoy this late-night-waste-of-time-gotta-go-to-sleep
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2021-02-09T03:00:24Z Wezl: What is the f in setf / rotatef / related mnemonic for?
2021-02-09T03:02:42Z mfiano: "function"
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2021-02-09T03:23:30Z pillton: Hmm.. where is that from? I don't think that is correct.
2021-02-09T03:24:06Z mfiano: Gabriel's Evolution of Lisp
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2021-02-09T03:27:35Z pillton: Thanks.
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2021-02-09T04:01:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-09T10:12:22Z gj: hello!
2021-02-09T10:12:42Z beach: Hell gj.
2021-02-09T10:13:20Z gj: greetings, i have a question about common lisp, it is just something small
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2021-02-09T10:13:36Z beach: Go right ahead.
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2021-02-09T10:15:44Z gj: i found an example of someones fibonacci sequence in lisp, and in that is (1- n),  i thought lisp used prefix notation?
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2021-02-09T10:16:07Z beach: Yes, 1- is the name of the function that subtracts 1 from its argument.
2021-02-09T10:16:10Z beach: clhs 1-
2021-02-09T10:16:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_1pl_1_.htm
2021-02-09T10:16:14Z gj: does (1- n) here mean (- n 1)
2021-02-09T10:16:26Z gj: oh! thank you so much.
2021-02-09T10:16:26Z beach: Yes.
2021-02-09T10:16:38Z beach: Pleasure.
2021-02-09T10:16:42Z gj: but would one still be able to write it as (- n 1) ?
2021-02-09T10:16:43Z mfiano: Yes, +1 and -1 is such a common thing that it is it's own function
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2021-02-09T10:16:53Z mfiano: Yes
2021-02-09T10:17:01Z gj: oh that is interesting, thanks
2021-02-09T10:17:12Z beach: gj: Yes, but there is a very general rule in programming, namely that one should use the most specific construct that will do the trick.
2021-02-09T10:17:20Z ey[m]: 1+ is a function that does the same thing as (+ n 1)
2021-02-09T10:17:38Z ey[m]: 1- the same thing
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2021-02-09T10:20:53Z theothornhill: It may be obvious, but it wasn't to me when I first learned CL: (1+ x) is not the same as (incf x) bit be a couple of times
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2021-02-09T10:22:09Z beach: gj: Imagine (- <very-long-expression> 1) vs (1- <very-long-expression>) In the first case, the person reading your code will have to wait until after <very-long-expression> to understand what is subtracted.  In the second case, that person will know immediately from reading the operator.
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2021-02-09T10:25:55Z gj: that makes sense, thank you
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2021-02-09T11:17:37Z nij: What difficultiles would there be to write python codes via https://github.com/bendudson/py4cl ?
2021-02-09T11:18:33Z nij: comparing to writing python codes using the python lang itself.
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2021-02-09T11:20:42Z jmercouris: nij: many
2021-02-09T11:20:56Z jmercouris: installing python is going to be far fewer steps for one
2021-02-09T11:21:34Z equwal: I've seen so many projects like this. They all seem like a half-baked bad idea to me.
2021-02-09T11:21:40Z jmercouris: secondly, syntax highlighting...
2021-02-09T11:21:48Z jmercouris: they are all a half baked idea
2021-02-09T11:22:04Z jmercouris: if you really must use some Python library, you will want to write a wrapper for it, using it directly is oft too painful
2021-02-09T11:22:13Z nij: jmercouris: yeah i really want to know why it's half-baked.
2021-02-09T11:22:16Z jmercouris: even CCL's famed objective-c bridge is difficult to use
2021-02-09T11:22:32Z jmercouris: I got quite into it, and had my fair share of issues
2021-02-09T11:22:45Z nij: is this theoretically improvable?
2021-02-09T11:22:55Z nij: or it's just a thing the be dealt with while talking foreign
2021-02-09T11:23:10Z jmercouris: foreign languages have different concepts that don't necessarily map well to lisp
2021-02-09T11:23:10Z nij: taking in a foreign lang*
2021-02-09T11:23:20Z jmercouris: there is always some impedance mismatch, hence so many problems
2021-02-09T11:23:31Z equwal: The only one I might be able to get behind is the APL one. Embedded APL seems potentially really good, for very specific kinds of programming. To convince me, show that the embedded language provides an actual benefit
2021-02-09T11:23:33Z jmercouris: CFFI which is a 'solved' foreign interface is not exactly fun, pleasant, or easy ot use
2021-02-09T11:23:43Z jmercouris: s/ot/to
2021-02-09T11:23:49Z nij: hmm.. would you plz give an example of python? Like, what python concept maps badly to lisp?
2021-02-09T11:23:50Z jmercouris: well, it is easy
2021-02-09T11:23:54Z jmercouris: but not fun or pleasant
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2021-02-09T11:24:11Z jmercouris: here's a concept, python uses lightweight threads
2021-02-09T11:24:28Z jmercouris: what if you had multiple bordeaux threads running calling python
2021-02-09T11:24:34Z jmercouris: would they each be calling a different process? the same one?
2021-02-09T11:24:36Z equwal: The problem is: why do you need this complication? It is a high cost, what is the offsetting benefit? I see none yet.
2021-02-09T11:24:37Z jmercouris: how do they share any state/
2021-02-09T11:24:52Z jmercouris: usually it is a crutch for people who are familiar with some language or library
2021-02-09T11:24:57Z jmercouris: and they want to keep using it
2021-02-09T11:25:23Z nij: equwal: writing in lisp is much funnnnner than in py
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2021-02-09T11:25:43Z equwal: I don't buy that. To take a line from the Rust community 'Write it in <LISP>!'
2021-02-09T11:25:57Z jmercouris: lol, we should get some NIH here
2021-02-09T11:26:02Z nij: equwal: <LISP>?
2021-02-09T11:26:09Z equwal: If it is more fun, then just do it then.
2021-02-09T11:26:14Z jmercouris: <LISP> IS MEMORY SAFE, we must rewrite all C programs in Lisp
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2021-02-09T11:26:32Z jmercouris: let's rewrite CURL in Lisp
2021-02-09T11:26:42Z equwal: There are all these carbon-copy programs in Rust, it is kind of their thing, to make ripoffs.
2021-02-09T11:26:53Z jmercouris: I wonder why
2021-02-09T11:27:12Z jmercouris: I've come so close several times to learning rust
2021-02-09T11:27:14Z equwal: The subtle hint here is that I think this is stupid. If it is a little program written in C, leave it alone
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2021-02-09T11:27:16Z nij: jmercouris: hm. So, but in this example why can't we just specify which process the bordeaux thread should be poointing at?
2021-02-09T11:27:29Z jmercouris: nij: I don't know, CAN YOU?
2021-02-09T11:27:35Z jmercouris: does py4cl give you a easy way to do that?
2021-02-09T11:28:00Z equwal: nij: If you need something from threads, you can write in in Lisp.
2021-02-09T11:28:23Z nij: yeah..
2021-02-09T11:28:37Z nij: I want to do it cuz the py-community obviously has a larger library
2021-02-09T11:28:53Z nij: if we can steal that without penalty, i'd be more than glad to do it
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2021-02-09T11:30:14Z equwal: I can get behind a carefully considered decision to use CFFI or April's APL
2021-02-09T11:30:18Z equwal: https://github.com/phantomics/april
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2021-02-09T11:31:44Z phantomics: What are you thinking of using it for?
2021-02-09T11:32:39Z equwal: Oh hey look who it is.
2021-02-09T11:33:17Z equwal: I don't know, but something like statistics functions could be useful with it.
2021-02-09T11:33:54Z equwal: I remember a paper that showed how to write them in APL, it was a really neat trick. I will look for it now.
2021-02-09T11:34:20Z phantomics: Not exactly comparable to CFFI, since it compiles to Lisp rather than interfacing with compiled binaries in another language
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2021-02-09T11:37:44Z phantomics: I've been using it for graphics, stats are another area you can get a lot of mileage from it
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2021-02-09T11:41:02Z equwal: See page 8 of this paper (currently uploading, please be patient): https://equwal.com/apl-pedagogical.pdf for the statistics I mention
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2021-02-09T11:42:33Z equwal: APL's original purpose was for handwriting computations in Linear Algebra in front of Iverson's class, and anything close to that is exteremely well-fitted to APL, otherwise APL can be useless for that problem.
2021-02-09T11:43:20Z equwal: nij's idea to use Python in Lisp makes little sense comparatively, since Python hardly provides any additional value and isn't anything like a DSL.
2021-02-09T11:44:00Z phantomics: I'll be the first to tell you that APL isn't a general-purpose language, it's special purpose, if your problem fits it it can give a huge performance boost, if not then use Lisp
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2021-02-09T11:44:46Z equwal: phantomics: Exactly which is why I mentioned your project. Are you aware of the niche project where APL is used as a GPU-only compiler?
2021-02-09T11:44:55Z phantomics: Productivity boost, I should say
2021-02-09T11:45:07Z phantomics: Yes, you mean co-dfns?
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2021-02-09T11:47:18Z nij: equwal: how about the libraries the python community has created?
2021-02-09T11:49:25Z equwal: nij: I can't get behind the fad of having a confusing 'stack' of 'technologies'. It makes sense to use C libraries from lisp; C is a kind of portable ASM upgrade. Why does it make sense to use python libraries from Lisp? Too complicated. fail.
2021-02-09T11:50:24Z equwal: Anyway this paper was really convincing to me. Every time I have shown it to someone familiar with Statistics 101 I get a very particular reaction.
2021-02-09T11:50:49Z phantomics: That's a more valid reason to use python integration, if there's a library you need for something and don't have time to implement it in Lisp, py4cl can get you there faster
2021-02-09T11:50:51Z equwal: (it is up now http://equwal.com/apl-pedagogical.pdf)
2021-02-09T11:51:07Z phantomics: Thanks for the paper equwal, reading it
2021-02-09T11:51:26Z lukego: Hey what's a good parser library for extracting fragments of text from mostly unstructured data? (Specifically for skimming out a couple of tables from a document that's been converted from PDF to text.)
2021-02-09T11:51:52Z phantomics: lukego: have you looked at MaxPC?
2021-02-09T11:51:56Z equwal: Well, if you are engaging in cheap hacks that are obviously bad, then fine, but don't expect anyone to say 'wow that is a great idea'
2021-02-09T11:52:21Z phantomics: It's always preferable to implement something in straight Lisp, but if you need to get something done right away, that may not be an option
2021-02-09T11:53:07Z equwal: I suppose. I'd just use some cheap shell hacking for that, CL kind of sucks for writing throw-away programs in my experience.
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2021-02-09T11:53:28Z lukego: phantomics: thanks for that pointer! hadn't seen (but know Max well)
2021-02-09T11:53:32Z Nilby: jmercouris: What feature do you want from curl that drakma doesn't do?
2021-02-09T11:54:37Z equwal: Here is 99% of my curl usage: curl --no-progress-meter 'wttr.in/Santa%20BARBARA,USA'
2021-02-09T11:54:53Z phantomics: equwal: I've used it for some useful throwaway things, but also if you're writing a significant application and you need something from Python, I'd rather put a Lisp app into production with some Python add-ons than a straight Python app
2021-02-09T11:55:13Z phantomics: And then over time work to reimplement the Python stuff in Lisp
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2021-02-09T11:56:32Z equwal: I can understand this use case. Seems too complex to me, why not write your Python hacks separately and keep your Lisp pure?
2021-02-09T11:57:15Z nij: Woah APL seems cool: life←{↑1 ⍵∨.∧3 4=+/,¯1 0 1∘.⊖¯1 0 1∘.⌽⊂⍵}
2021-02-09T11:57:15Z nij:  
2021-02-09T11:57:20Z equwal: I did a project when I was in College with another student. He only knew python, so I just called his program with uiop:run-program.
2021-02-09T11:57:24Z nij: Does this really get you game of life?
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2021-02-09T11:57:49Z phantomics: Yes, that function calculates the next generation of a life matrix
2021-02-09T11:57:52Z Nilby: equwal: nice, but what renders it for you?
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2021-02-09T11:58:30Z nij: jeez i should learn APL
2021-02-09T11:58:39Z equwal: I did a project when I was in College with another student. He only knew python, so I just called his program with uiop:run-program.
2021-02-09T11:58:47Z equwal: oops, sorry
2021-02-09T11:59:50Z nij: xD
2021-02-09T11:59:54Z equwal: nij: APL is has the highest ratio of 'totally cool, dude'/'what is that?' of any language. Kind of sad it is forgotten. I used it to mess around in my notebooks during my stats 101 course.
2021-02-09T11:59:57Z phantomics: Keeping Lisp pure is what I'd aim for, I haven't needed to directly generate Python yet, just envisioning use cases
2021-02-09T12:00:16Z nij: equwal: what's your favorite bible for APL?
2021-02-09T12:00:18Z nij: down for it
2021-02-09T12:00:37Z nij: i'm looking for notations that allow compact expressions
2021-02-09T12:00:41Z nij: apl seems pretty nice
2021-02-09T12:00:44Z phantomics: If you want to learn APL, I recommend: tutorial.dyalog.com
2021-02-09T12:01:03Z phantomics: This tutorial uses really primitive technology, but the quality of the material is superb
2021-02-09T12:01:14Z nij: The better; the nicher!
2021-02-09T12:01:20Z nij: Sad fact.
2021-02-09T12:01:41Z nij: phantomics: thanks for the recommendation. I care only about the content ;)
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2021-02-09T12:01:57Z equwal: nij: dyalog stuff is good I guess. I could do without the profit-mongering/business attitude in what is left of APL.
2021-02-09T12:02:57Z phantomics: You don't need to pay for the tutorial, and April is patterned after Dyalog, so learning Dyalog can be applied to April, also to dzaima/APL, another FOSS APL built on Java
2021-02-09T12:03:44Z phantomics: What kind of things are you interested in doing nij? There are other languages in the same vector language family as APL that you can also look at
2021-02-09T12:03:47Z nij: equwal: so, I get it's ability to express (soooo!) compactly
2021-02-09T12:03:55Z equwal: nij: I like the finnapl idiom library and the microapl.com documentation.
2021-02-09T12:04:11Z nij: or an apl wizard, can they understand meanings from an apl expression quickly without confusion?
2021-02-09T12:04:27Z nij: phantomics: higher algebra in mathematics
2021-02-09T12:04:36Z nij: still exploring
2021-02-09T12:05:03Z equwal: It takes forever to read APL. It is fun, you can do magic tricks with it.
2021-02-09T12:05:05Z nij: equwal: thakns
2021-02-09T12:05:10Z nij: :(
2021-02-09T12:05:14Z phantomics: APL's a good choice for that, especially if you want to work with higher-rank arrays
2021-02-09T12:05:25Z nij: phantomics: not sure.. i will see
2021-02-09T12:05:34Z nij: by "higher" i mean "higher dimensional"
2021-02-09T12:05:46Z nij: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=operad
2021-02-09T12:05:48Z phantomics: Another vector language family branch is the k family, but k only operates on vectors. It's generally aimed at finance
2021-02-09T12:06:14Z nij: equwal: so even for wizards, reading apl can still be hard?
2021-02-09T12:06:33Z nij: and, can i say that, apl describes more operationally than declaratively?
2021-02-09T12:06:43Z phantomics: Yeah, reading dense APL code you're not familiar with can be tricky
2021-02-09T12:06:58Z phantomics: Generally I learn what it does by evaluating it a bit at a time
2021-02-09T12:07:07Z equwal: The wizards say they might spend 5-15 minutes per line. It is so dense, think of a line like a whole page of code.
2021-02-09T12:08:19Z phantomics: Yeah, there's a tradeoff in that you have fewer lines but they take longer to read
2021-02-09T12:08:22Z equwal: I don't like these ASCII clones. Super bad idea. We can type weird symbols in 2020, Jesus H. Christ.
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2021-02-09T12:08:52Z phantomics: However, the short, terse code also gives a plain advantage to APL: your code will have very few bugs
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2021-02-09T12:09:15Z phantomics: Yeah, ASCII languages need to overload tons of meanings onto each character for different contexts
2021-02-09T12:09:49Z phantomics: J is really confusing that way
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2021-02-09T12:10:25Z phantomics: Also, if you like exotic character sets, you should also check out BQN, a completely new vector language by an ex-Dyalog guy
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2021-02-09T12:11:19Z equwal: Reminds me of this: https://github.com/marcoheisig/Petalisp/blob/master/README.org#why-the-greek-letters
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2021-02-09T12:12:09Z jackdaniel: please keep in mind this channel's topic
2021-02-09T12:12:33Z equwal: I his ELS paper (paraphrased) we have these machines doing huge numbers of perations, all these tiny transistors, gigantic amounts of storage, and you can't figure out how insert a weird character into a text editor?
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2021-02-09T12:13:42Z heisig: :)
2021-02-09T12:13:44Z phantomics: This is Iverson's paper on custom notation: https://www.eecg.utoronto.ca/~jzhu/csc326/readings/iverson.pdf
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2021-02-09T12:13:57Z phantomics: And special characters are useful in Lisp too
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2021-02-09T12:14:18Z equwal: Sorry to burn your ears Heisig.
2021-02-09T12:15:38Z phantomics: For example April uses a macro called λωα which expands thusly: (λωα (+ alpha omega)) => (lambda (omega alpha) (+ alpha omega))
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2021-02-09T12:19:05Z equwal: I have a hard time with extensions to APL like this BQN. APL is complex enough, please stop trying to extend it! If anything, I want less stuff in my APL.
2021-02-09T12:19:53Z jackdaniel: equwal: phantomics: these things seem to be offtopic on this channel, could you please move it to i.e #lispcafe ?
2021-02-09T12:22:04Z equwal: You are right. Let me put this link for njb and I will be finished: https://www.jsoftware.com/papers/APLEvol.htm
2021-02-09T12:22:20Z jackdaniel: OK, thank you
2021-02-09T12:23:04Z heisig: Proponents of array languages are also welcome to join #petalisp.
2021-02-09T12:23:20Z equwal: based
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2021-02-09T12:24:48Z phantomics: I'm done talking vector langs for now, good to know that channel heisig
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2021-02-09T14:38:48Z jmercouris: do you think it would be likely that a paper about Nyxt may be accepted into the ELS?
2021-02-09T14:38:52Z jmercouris: should I make a submission?
2021-02-09T14:39:19Z phoe: I think you should
2021-02-09T14:39:50Z phoe: even if, for whatever reason, it does not make it into the ELS program, I will have a reason to bother you for recording a video for the Online Lisp Meetings
2021-02-09T14:40:27Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-02-09T14:40:32Z jmercouris: :-D
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2021-02-09T14:44:16Z Nilby: Do you know if there's somewhere where those FOSDEM videos were archived?
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2021-02-09T14:48:11Z hhdave: jmecouris: it looks interesting. It was previously known as 'Next browser' wasn't it? I must have a play with it. It seems to have progressed quite a bit since I looked at it.
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2021-02-09T14:50:32Z hhdave: (jmercouris I mean)
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2021-02-09T14:55:49Z Nilby: hhdave: My opinion is it's progressed significantly recently.
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2021-02-09T15:06:16Z flip214: How do I upgrade a BASE-STRING to STRING? COERCE doesn't help, ADJUST-ARRAY gives an error, MAKE-STRING only allows a single INITIAL-ELEMENT, MAKE-ARRAY wants a list for :I-ELEMENTS....
2021-02-09T15:07:18Z jmercouris: hhdave: you are correct
2021-02-09T15:07:59Z Bike: flip214: base strings are strings. do you want a character array specifically?
2021-02-09T15:07:59Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 8 hours, 29 minutes ago: Here's my current plan for image-save...
2021-02-09T15:07:59Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 8 hours, 28 minutes ago: Here's my current plan for image save:  https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/3TLbC4Ub/
2021-02-09T15:08:53Z flip214: Bike: the problem is that passing "http://localhost/?a=%c3%b6" breaks in PURI, as it wants to decode the string into a COPY-SEQ of the input - but if the input is a BASE-STRING, the "ö" isn't accepted
2021-02-09T15:09:25Z Bike: (coerce base-string '(simple-array character (*))) maybe
2021-02-09T15:09:58Z phoe: Bike: won't 'simple-string do?
2021-02-09T15:10:05Z flip214: ie. (drakma:http-request (coerce "http://localhost:8080/gen/?a=%C3%B6" 'base-string))
2021-02-09T15:10:17Z phoe: I mean, one-dimensional simple-array of character *is* a string
2021-02-09T15:10:19Z phoe: (AFAIR)
2021-02-09T15:10:30Z Bike: yes, but so is the base string being put in
2021-02-09T15:10:41Z flip214: (coerce uri 'simple-string) also breaks
2021-02-09T15:10:47Z mfiano: IF it isn't too much work, one could try quri (with dexador)
2021-02-09T15:11:06Z Bike: coerce returns what you put in if it's already of the type, and (typep a-base-string 'simple-string) => T
2021-02-09T15:11:08Z flip214: mfiano: the problem is within drakma, so that would be a bit more work
2021-02-09T15:11:13Z Bike: well, if it's a simple-base-string, of course
2021-02-09T15:11:56Z Bike: (coerce x 'string) does nothing for the same reason
2021-02-09T15:12:08Z flip214: (babel:octets-to-string (babel:string-to-octets uri)) works.... ugh
2021-02-09T15:12:20Z Bike: did you try my coerce line? to (simple-array character (*))?
2021-02-09T15:12:24Z _death: map?
2021-02-09T15:14:02Z jmercouris: Nilby: FOsDEM videos are archived on archive.fosdem.com or something, all of our FOSDEM videos can be seen on our site
2021-02-09T15:14:27Z jmercouris: Here’s an example of an archive URL
2021-02-09T15:14:29Z jmercouris: https://archive.fosdem.org/2020/schedule/event/next_web_browser/
2021-02-09T15:15:17Z Nilby: jmercouris: Thanks! I couldn't find it on the main site.
2021-02-09T15:15:31Z jmercouris: Yeah, it’s not well documented IMO
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2021-02-09T17:47:43Z contrapunctus: Thinking of writing a Git frontend for Gemini. There's Shinmera's `legit` and fourier's `git-api`; neither has had a commit since 2019; the latter does not require a Git binary, although that's not a big deal at least for my personal situation. What do y'all say? 🤔
2021-02-09T17:49:26Z scymtym: contrapunctus: there is also https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-git but i don't anything about it
2021-02-09T17:49:30Z scymtym: *don't know
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2021-02-09T17:53:42Z contrapunctus: scymtym: thanks, that sounds like a more thorough approach
2021-02-09T17:54:17Z phoe: contrapunctus: "neither has had a commit since 2019"
2021-02-09T17:54:20Z phoe: maybe it didn't need one?
2021-02-09T17:56:56Z contrapunctus: phoe: git-api says, "Work in progress!!!"
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2021-02-09T17:57:04Z phoe: talking about legit here
2021-02-09T17:58:11Z contrapunctus: Yeah, that one sounds like it's more or less where the author wants it to be - v1.0.0, and "I will add features as they are needed. The low-level command API is fully mapped however."
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2021-02-09T18:18:47Z rpg: Unlikely any system is bulletproof enough to have required no patches in more than a year if it's in use.
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2021-02-09T18:35:06Z jcowan: A question about actual functioning applications rather than the standard: are there any CLs that don't (a) provide at least 24-bit fixnums (b) have EQ work correctly on fixnums?
2021-02-09T18:35:15Z jcowan: s/applications/implementations
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2021-02-09T18:36:45Z semz: you can easily test (a) programmatically for what it's worth
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2021-02-09T18:44:24Z jcowan: Yes, if I had a lot of Lisps installed.
2021-02-09T18:45:22Z semz: I mean in the program that relies these two conditions.
2021-02-09T18:45:50Z semz: Since I assume you had a concrete use in mind
2021-02-09T18:45:56Z semz: relies on*
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2021-02-09T18:47:49Z jcowan: I'm doing a feasibility study to see if Interlisp can be implemented in Common Lisp.  There are a bunch of places in which IL is overspecified, like what the size of a fixnum is (17 bits) and that fixnums are reliably EQ.
2021-02-09T18:48:09Z jcowan: The main benefit of this effort would be to have something faster than the Interlisp bytecode compiler.
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2021-02-09T18:49:52Z jcowan: I guess the simplest approach is to install a bunch of CLs and test on them.  Which ones should I test things like this on?
2021-02-09T18:52:50Z Nilby: I'm sure it could be worked out. Maybe you could just make a fixnum be an (integer 0 131072) or something and have a compiler macro for reliable-eq.
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2021-02-09T18:56:19Z semz: Assuming I understand your question correctly, CCL fits your bill. As should most current implementations, SBCL is probably more popular. I'm just confused that you ask for "any impl that doesn't", as if you're trying to make it work on as many implementations as possible. You explicitly said the standard is no concern, so shouldn't it be enough to find one or just ensure it for the most common impls?
2021-02-09T18:56:23Z semz: I feel like I'm missing something
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2021-02-09T19:00:23Z jcowan: I would like it to be as portable as possible while still conforming to the IL standard, such as it is.
2021-02-09T19:00:31Z Nilby: I imagine it would be very rare code that cared how small, rather than how big, a fixnum is.
2021-02-09T19:01:13Z jcowan: It's more that IL code is written to rely on fixnums being EQ
2021-02-09T19:01:37Z jcowan: they are 17-bit in IL, whereas the ANS sets a lower threshold of 16 bits.
2021-02-09T19:02:45Z edgar-rft: jcowan: fixnums and EQ work only on very old computers reliably, because EQ compares memory pointers but on modern multi-level cache CPUs fixnums can also be stored in CPU registers and other places. That was the main reason why EQL was introduced, EQL is guaranteed to work reliably with fixnums in all memory places.
2021-02-09T19:03:20Z jcowan: So perhaps TRT is to implement IL:EQ with CL:EQL
2021-02-09T19:03:47Z Nilby: I imagine a litte eq tweaking in a package would suffice. One cool thing about CL packages is: you don't have to :use the CL package.
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2021-02-09T19:04:57Z jcowan: Which leads to another question
2021-02-09T19:07:20Z Nilby: I have a vague recollection of some other Lisp, probably a commercial lisp, from the early Common Lisp era being able to run Interlisp code.
2021-02-09T19:07:47Z jcowan: Medley, the IL environment, has a CL in it, roughly CLtL2--.
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2021-02-09T19:18:03Z Josh_2: Hi, is there a nice way to export symbols related to functions, classes and accessors from my package?
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2021-02-09T19:19:12Z Josh_2: obviously I could type them out but that'll take a while
2021-02-09T19:19:51Z jcowan: If IL:EQ is to be implemented as CL:EQL, and assuming the compiler can inline the latter, what is the best way to make sure that property is not lost?  Declare it inline, use a compile-time macro, something else?
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2021-02-09T19:26:09Z Nilby: I'm not sure how it could get lost. Compilers seem pretty good about that.
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2021-02-09T19:31:16Z jcowan: I'll need to have (defun eq (x y) (cl:eql x y)) so that it exists as a function for the benefit of higher-order functions, but I don't suppose the compiler is likely to be smart enough to see that this is just cl:eql under the covers.
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2021-02-09T19:33:05Z Nilby: They are smart enough.
2021-02-09T19:33:47Z jcowan: Ah, good.
2021-02-09T19:34:27Z Nilby: Also there's other ways, like (setf (fdefinition eq) (fdefinition cl:eql)).
2021-02-09T19:34:42Z Nilby: As well as compiler macros if need be.
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2021-02-09T19:35:33Z pve: Josh_2: you could start with something simple like: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2286
2021-02-09T19:36:55Z jcowan: So the compiler actually checks whether the fdefinition of a function is the same as that of a known function?
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2021-02-09T19:39:54Z Nilby: I'm not a compiler expert, but I don't think so. Rather a call to a function that only calls another function with the same arguments is an easy target for optimization. When you set the definintion, it just calls whatever it's set to.
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2021-02-09T19:40:21Z Nilby: or whatever it can prove is equivalet code
2021-02-09T19:42:34Z Nilby: I think these detail of porting Interlisp would probably work out. I would guess that the hard part might be some kind of custom I/O routines, libraries or something?
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2021-02-09T19:50:30Z nij: For those who use lisp repl as main shell, which cronjob service do you use?
2021-02-09T19:50:37Z jcowan: The hard thing so far is NLAMBDA, the variant of LAMBDA that does not evaluate its arguments.  That may be a showstopper altogether.  Some NLAMBDAs can be mechanically converted to macros, but probably not all of them.
2021-02-09T19:50:55Z jcowan: see "Fexprs Considered Harmful"
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2021-02-09T19:52:31Z prxq: nij: people actually do that?
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2021-02-09T19:53:22Z nij: prxq: it's happening
2021-02-09T19:53:36Z nij: https://ambrevar.xyz/lisp-repl-shell/index.html  <== very comprehensive write-up, appearing just 2 days ago.
2021-02-09T19:54:00Z nij: should be a video up soon too. very excited.
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2021-02-09T19:57:58Z Nilby: jcowan: I converted some code from old Lisp that used fexprs and I just made a short define-fexpr macro which seemed to work. I'm sure one can make an nlambda macro too.
2021-02-09T19:58:28Z jcowan: Do you still have the macro somewhere?
2021-02-09T19:59:46Z Nilby: Let me check...
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2021-02-09T20:11:30Z Nilby: jcowan: I think the techinque used here https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2287#2287 wouldn't be appropriate for IL, but probably should work with a slighly modified apply function. But you can get the idea. An FEXPR in CL can basicaly be a function and macro. But you should probably ask someone who work on compilers.
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2021-02-09T20:12:21Z jcowan: Thanks
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2021-02-09T20:14:13Z Nilby: I'm pretty sure I've seen code the does nlambda in CL, since I think old Maclisp had nlambda.
2021-02-09T20:15:10Z Nilby: Also, some hacker ethic dictates, never take "it can't be done" for an answer.
2021-02-09T20:16:11Z jcowan: It can always be done with another layer of indirection, yes.  But the right thing to do when trying to emulate a Lisp in which compiled functions are represented by their addresses as fixnums is to say hell no.
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2021-02-09T20:21:21Z Nilby: A function boils down to an address in CL and every langauge, it's just Lisp has quite a bit of other information about it. A symbol is really just a number too. All the other detail can be stored separately. Anyway even if it's a 10x slowdown, it still be 1000x faster than the old hardware ran it.
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2021-02-09T20:24:29Z prxq: it's all bits if you look closely enough. And heaps of cranky assembly.
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2021-02-09T20:27:33Z nij: it's all particles are waves if you look even closer
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2021-02-09T20:27:57Z nij: and probably at the end there's nothing
2021-02-09T20:28:02Z nij: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81
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2021-02-09T20:52:29Z nij: ---------
2021-02-09T20:53:02Z nij: We have symbols like cl-user:foo.. how about deeper symbols? --  cl-user:foo:bar:hello ?
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2021-02-09T21:00:53Z Josh_2: pve: thanks!
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2021-02-09T21:11:38Z Nilby: deeper symbols? like cl-luser:how:about:lets:not:turn:lisp:into:java:mmmkay
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2021-02-09T21:16:16Z nij: Nilby: yeap!
2021-02-09T21:16:36Z nij: I tried (defvar cl-user:a:b 3) without luck
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2021-02-09T21:18:27Z prxq: nij: we don't have that. There is a hierarchical package thing using the period, but it used to be simply a convention. foo.bar.baz::something
2021-02-09T21:18:27Z Nilby: One could make a reader macro, and even make it mean something like defined-in-package, but why?
2021-02-09T21:18:42Z phoe: a reader macro wouldn't work
2021-02-09T21:18:48Z phoe: a modification to the lisp reader would be necessary
2021-02-09T21:19:00Z phoe: unless you want to prefix your package names with something. I wrote a similar thing some time ago
2021-02-09T21:19:25Z prxq: I only remember that the hierarchical package effort had to deal with far too many thorny issues to be worth it.
2021-02-09T21:20:29Z Nilby: phoe: You're right. I guess I'm thinking again of my lovely pet *read-intern*.
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2021-02-09T21:30:32Z _death: I think jasom had a project where packages a named by symbols.. so maybe a:b:c would work there
2021-02-09T21:33:55Z nij: Nilby: for flexibility sake.. why not @@?
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2021-02-09T21:37:24Z jasom: I installed a reader macro for every single character in unicode to get that to work; I agree that a readtable entry for tokens would be wonderful.
2021-02-09T21:38:08Z jasom: If you are willing to limit yourself to the initial character of symbols being in latin-1, you can do it without making the readtable gigantic
2021-02-09T21:38:29Z jasom: s/latin-1/latin-1 or any other small subset of unicode/
2021-02-09T21:38:40Z Nilby: jasom: Sounds like you could have used *read-inter* too.
2021-02-09T21:39:07Z nij: (defun 😂:laugh-so-hard-until-tears-come-out () "Just lol!" (print "😂"))
2021-02-09T21:39:17Z phoe: nij: that is already possible
2021-02-09T21:39:25Z nij: phoe: you mean a:b:c?
2021-02-09T21:39:43Z phoe: no, (😂:laugh-so-hard-until-tears-come-out)
2021-02-09T21:39:52Z jasom: phoe: I think they were responding to my comment about restricting package names to start with latin-1 in order to get custom interning
2021-02-09T21:40:29Z nij: phoe: you're super quick
2021-02-09T21:40:36Z nij: yeah i know xD
2021-02-09T21:40:42Z phoe: jasom: oop, yes
2021-02-09T21:40:46Z nij: s/xD/😂😂😂
2021-02-09T21:41:27Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/spm-reader/blob/master/spm-example.lisp  <-- don't use this in production, but this uses the keyword package as the root, so you can do :foo:bar:baz for absolute referencing and foo:bar:baz for referecning things relative to *package*
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2021-02-09T21:42:14Z jasom: Nilby: hookable interning would also have made package-local-nicknames implementable as a library
2021-02-09T21:42:51Z Nilby: In case your wondering what I mean https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2288#2288
2021-02-09T21:43:09Z Nilby: I've been using it for years. It solves many problems.
2021-02-09T21:43:15Z _death: eclector is great for such things
2021-02-09T21:43:30Z jasom: Nilby: that's SBCL only, right?
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2021-02-09T21:44:57Z jasom: _death: nice; I don't think that existed when I did the spm-reader.  I used pjb's lovely implementation, which required making spm-reader GPL licensed.
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2021-02-09T21:45:31Z phoe: yes, eclector is a fairly recent development
2021-02-09T21:45:33Z Nilby: I did it to ccl and ecl too. It's a very easy pactch.
2021-02-09T21:46:06Z phoe: Nilby: nice
2021-02-09T21:46:25Z Nilby: I use eclector as a workaroud on unpatched lisps, but it's a pretty heavy workaround.
2021-02-09T21:46:41Z Nilby: You'd be suprised how many things that enables.
2021-02-09T21:46:45Z jasom: I would rather it were an extra field in the readtable than its own special, but I would take anything if it would be upstreamed
2021-02-09T21:47:12Z Nilby: phoe: I bet if you asked every implementaion to accept *read-intern*, it might actaully happen.
2021-02-09T21:48:45Z Nilby: phoe: You're like the first in a long time to make a nearly universal defacto change like PLN.
2021-02-09T21:49:45Z phoe: uhhhh
2021-02-09T21:49:49Z phoe: I didn't make PLN
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2021-02-09T21:49:56Z phoe: I only implemented it in CCL, really
2021-02-09T21:50:18Z phoe: which was like the last missing puzzle, other than CLISP which got an implementation by mood_ not long afterwards
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2021-02-09T21:52:29Z Nilby: I don't know, but it seems like you got the momentum goiing for it to be complete
2021-02-09T21:52:48Z phoe: I kinda guess so
2021-02-09T21:53:11Z phoe: again, it wasn't *that* much work to be done when I started the work on the CCL implementation
2021-02-09T21:53:25Z ezekielwordswort: hey did you guys know that typing "!cliki" on duckduckgo takes you to cliki automatically, i mean its not really useful but its quite neat to know
2021-02-09T21:53:26Z phoe: SBCL, ECL, Clasp, ACL, ABCL, these all already supported PLNs
2021-02-09T21:53:54Z phoe: ezekielwordswort: TIL!
2021-02-09T21:54:26Z Nilby: thankfully SBCL and CCL have essentiall the same reader
2021-02-09T21:54:33Z ezekielwordswort: it also supports "!clhs" which i guess you know what does, but it takes you to the lispworks website instead of the hyperspec
2021-02-09T21:54:51Z Nilby: clisp is the one i find hard to patch
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2021-02-09T21:57:41Z ezekielwordswort: i prefer using SBCL but my muscle memory automatically takes me to clisp
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2021-02-09T22:08:08Z _death: makes me wonder how you start your lisp..
2021-02-09T22:11:37Z nij: any way to run cron jobs in a lispy way?
2021-02-09T22:13:43Z mfiano: |3b| made PLN
2021-02-09T22:13:52Z aeth: nij: have an image already running as a daemon and just talk to it with the cron job?
2021-02-09T22:14:20Z aeth: nij: otherwise, just like any other script
2021-02-09T22:14:40Z jasom: nij: I wrote something that checks timetstamps against the previously run job, and I call it every minute from cron, but it's proprietary
2021-02-09T22:14:49Z _death: think everyone writes their own
2021-02-09T22:15:27Z aeth: If it's rarely run and you don't want to persist the image, then you just run it like a script, e.g. sbcl --non-interactive --load some-entry-point-file.lisp
2021-02-09T22:15:54Z jasom: it uses local-time so that job times can be specified in arbitrary timezones, which was a requirement because neither UTC nor the local-time of the host it ran on worked for everyone with DST
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2021-02-09T22:20:01Z nij: jasom: :-(
2021-02-09T22:20:10Z nij: i see @@
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2021-02-09T22:31:04Z ezekielwordswort: any example recursive descent parsers written in lisp
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2021-02-09T22:40:07Z jasom: ezekielwordswort: I needed an rfc-2822 parser way too late at night and wrote this monstrosity once: https://gist.github.com/jasom/57333266b96dfde352956f779dd366d1
2021-02-09T22:43:03Z jasom: nij: it was fairly specialized to running daily tasks anyways; you could have any number of daily tasks, but it wouldn't do weekly, and the only way to do hourly would be to set up 24 tasks.  As _death said it's the sort of thing that's just hard enough to be annoying and just easy enough that nobody has gone to the extra effort of making their special-purpose code general-purpose
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2021-02-09T22:47:24Z phoe: why I should not think lisp 12 minutes before midnight: INSURE-CLASS-USING-CLASS
2021-02-09T22:47:31Z phoe: time to sleep, good night #lisp
2021-02-09T22:48:18Z jasom: At least if your class gets damaged, it will be financially sound.
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2021-02-10T02:11:28Z fouric: ,memo kpoeck the linuxarm.tar.gz from github yields "illegal instruction" on my arm1176jzf-s
2021-02-10T02:11:39Z fouric: .memo kpoeck the linuxarm.tar.gz from github yields "illegal instruction" on my arm1176jzf-s
2021-02-10T02:11:44Z fouric: hm.
2021-02-10T02:12:01Z Bike: ::notify fouric i think this ought to work
2021-02-10T02:12:02Z Colleen: Bike: Got it. I'll let fouric know as soon as possible.
2021-02-10T02:12:15Z fouric: aha, ty Bike (and Colleen)
2021-02-10T02:12:15Z Colleen: fouric: Bike said 13 seconds ago: i think this ought to work
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2021-02-10T02:12:32Z fouric: ::notify kpoeck the linuxarm.tar.gz from github yields "illegal instruction" on my arm1176jzf-s
2021-02-10T02:12:33Z Colleen: fouric: Got it. I'll let kpoeck know as soon as possible.
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2021-02-10T04:04:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-10T04:09:11Z recalloc: I've found a library that depends on both trivial-utf-8 and babel, so I thought I'd go through moving all the trivial-utf-8 stuff over. Is it safe to assume the special variable babel:*default-encoding* will remain UTF-8, or should I explicitly set the encoding each call, or is there a way to dynamic-bind that variable for a whole file?
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2021-02-10T04:18:39Z jasom: recalloc: there is no such thing as a dynamic binding for a "whole file" since a file is a lexical unit.  For a library you'll pretty much have to specify the encoding every time because you can't rely on consumers of your library not changing the default.
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2021-02-10T04:21:33Z recalloc: jasom: Aight, I suppose I figured the worst-case was right. Fortunately I don't call it enough times to make it a bother
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2021-02-10T04:22:42Z recalloc: babel and trivial's relevant API is very close, fortunately. Looks like the tests all pass and my dependent project doesn't break either.
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2021-02-10T04:30:43Z recalloc: https://github.com/fukamachi/fast-websocket/pull/7
2021-02-10T04:31:16Z recalloc: Fukamachi was active less than a week ago to GitHub, so I'm hoping it gets his approval
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2021-02-10T04:34:52Z jasom: if trivial-utf-8 is faster than babel, he might reject it.
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2021-02-10T04:37:59Z recalloc: That's true. Regardless of whether he rejects it, I think I've done my part. Unless I can convince that babel is somewhat faster or comparable.
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2021-02-10T04:48:12Z recalloc: My project indirectly depends on both puri and quri, but because of how it's organized, I see no good way of migrating a system from one dependency to the other
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2021-02-10T04:49:28Z recalloc: lispcord requires websocket-driver-client requires quri, but also lispcord requires drakma requires puri. Less a matter of technically migrating the dependency, but more about encouraging either drakma or websocket to move to the other
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2021-02-10T04:49:56Z recalloc: So I think the best action is to leave it as-is.
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2021-02-10T04:51:54Z recalloc: Oh, I see someone else has bothered to do it for me 5 years ago
2021-02-10T04:52:58Z recalloc: 6 years*, it's 2021
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2021-02-10T08:17:00Z contrapunctus: Hm, I can't seem to figure out how to use `legit` to get the repository tree. I tried `git-ls-tree`, but I'm not sure how to use that value...it's not a list of strings, or even a string, like I might expect 🤔
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2021-02-10T08:19:34Z phoe: git-ls-tree? I can't see it in the current version of legit
2021-02-10T08:19:47Z phoe: (apropos "git-ls-tree") gives me nothing
2021-02-10T08:19:51Z contrapunctus: oh sorry, `git-ls-files`
2021-02-10T08:21:59Z phoe: contrapunctus: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2290#2290
2021-02-10T08:22:56Z contrapunctus: phoe: Oh thanks 😀
2021-02-10T08:23:27Z phoe: basically: intercept the standard output, split by newline
2021-02-10T08:23:42Z phoe: that's a common idiom to do with Lisp programs that print to *s-o*
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2021-02-10T08:24:37Z phoe: oh, seems like you can use legit:*git-output* instead of *s-o*
2021-02-10T08:24:40Z phoe: that works too
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2021-02-10T08:36:06Z contrapunctus: phoe: say, why are there parens around `*standard-output*` in your example? 🤔
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2021-02-10T08:38:28Z contrapunctus: Oh nevermind
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2021-02-10T08:39:45Z contrapunctus: (The arglist is `(var &optional string-form &key element-type) declaration* form*` and not, as I imagined, `(var &optional string-form &key element-type declaration* form*)` 😅)
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2021-02-10T09:59:02Z phoe: `(var &optional ... &key ... &body forms)` would be one crazy macro lambda list
2021-02-10T10:02:45Z contrapunctus: Hahaha
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2021-02-10T10:27:05Z contrapunctus: I figured I could remove the choice paralysis by using CLOS to define multiple backends, thus being able to use any kind of Git library (or even other VCS libraries)
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2021-02-10T13:00:51Z nij: Good morning! How do I inspect a CL program? Stumpwm has been shooting my CPU to 200% and heating my machine, for example. I can connect to it through a swank/slynk server. Hopefully I can look into its internal.
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2021-02-10T13:04:22Z Xach: nij: one option is to interrupt each thread to print or save a backtrace - that can give you an idea of who is doing what work
2021-02-10T13:04:39Z Xach: nij: i don't have a one-liner or key to do that, sorry
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2021-02-10T13:06:26Z nij: can i expect to see *ALL* threads by (sb-thread:list-all-threads)? Just to double check.
2021-02-10T13:06:32Z Xach: yes
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2021-02-10T13:06:51Z nij: COOL. In emacs there's some profiling tool. Wonder if there's any here.
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2021-02-10T13:07:45Z wsm: /!\ this channel has moved to ##hamradio /!\
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2021-02-10T13:09:35Z Xach: I am not moving.
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2021-02-10T13:14:35Z AuctusBS: /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\
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2021-02-10T13:14:37Z EvilWerezombieQy: /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\
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2021-02-10T13:15:33Z Xach: What on earth.
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2021-02-10T13:16:10Z orboZ: /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\
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2021-02-10T13:16:24Z nij: /|\   <== this symbol reminds me of road trip
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2021-02-10T13:16:33Z nij: wonder when we can do that soon
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2021-02-10T13:16:49Z ck_: I bet they don't even socially distance the nicknames in those other channels
2021-02-10T13:16:59Z Theking^eQ: /!\ this channel has moved to #nyymit /!\
2021-02-10T13:17:31Z nij: ck_: lol
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2021-02-10T13:29:00Z Inline: hewww
2021-02-10T13:29:08Z Inline: i got my makerlisp machine
2021-02-10T13:29:11Z Inline: hahaha :)
2021-02-10T13:29:28Z phoe: show me!
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2021-02-10T13:30:54Z flip214: how about all joining and leaving that advertized channel repeatedly? should make quite a mess of the channel logs...
2021-02-10T13:31:29Z phoe: I have all joins/leaves ignored
2021-02-10T13:31:35Z phoe: also #freenode says that the spam attack seems over for now
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2021-02-10T13:34:49Z nij: Xach: I turned on another sly, and list all threads. It turns out that the only two different threads in the old instance are called "Mixer thread 44,100 Hz".
2021-02-10T13:35:07Z nij: But while I inspect, there doesn't seem to be useful information.
2021-02-10T13:35:09Z nij: https://bpa.st/4BLQ
2021-02-10T13:35:21Z nij: Should I maybe run a profiler against them?
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2021-02-10T13:42:34Z phoe: try calling bt:interrupt-thread #'break on those threads
2021-02-10T13:42:42Z phoe: and see if the CPU usage drops
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2021-02-10T13:48:43Z nij: Seems that it's destroyed.. and CPU drops from 200% to 0.2%
2021-02-10T13:48:59Z nij: wish I can see what it's playing behind the scene before it died
2021-02-10T13:49:41Z phoe: you can continue in the debugger
2021-02-10T13:49:45Z phoe: or rather
2021-02-10T13:49:49Z phoe: you can inspect the backtrace in the debugger!
2021-02-10T13:49:55Z phoe: maybe that will give you some info
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2021-02-10T13:50:49Z nij: but.. but it's dead
2021-02-10T13:51:12Z nij: lemme see how I can make it alive again
2021-02-10T13:52:23Z phoe: dead?
2021-02-10T13:52:26Z phoe: oh, did you kill it?
2021-02-10T13:52:40Z phoe: BREAK doesn't kill threads on its own, it just places them in the debugger
2021-02-10T13:53:58Z nij: uh I called (sbcl-thread:interrupt-thread <that annoying thread> nil)
2021-02-10T13:54:14Z nij: and a menu is up, asking me what to do next
2021-02-10T13:54:23Z nij: i guess i chose one that killed it then :-(
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2021-02-10T13:57:58Z phoe: oop
2021-02-10T13:58:02Z Bike: sb-thread:interrupt-thread takes a function for its second argument. i think nil would be an error?
2021-02-10T14:00:53Z nij: ooop..
2021-02-10T14:01:16Z nij: I will wait for it to come out next time. It has been present yesterday too, but i just killed the whole stumpwm.
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2021-02-10T14:02:04Z nij: Threads are tricky. Isn't there a way to see its whole history? Like which functions it inboked, which outputs it has generated.. etc?
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2021-02-10T14:03:25Z Bike: if every thread recorded that stuff the system would be way slower.
2021-02-10T14:03:45Z Bike: certainly they wouldn't be running at 44 kHz
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2021-02-10T14:10:24Z flip214: nij: Bike: I'd really love for SBCL to generate DWARF information - then this could be fetched via perf and similar tools, without too heavy performance impacts
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2021-02-10T14:14:22Z nij is trying to read up what DWARF is. Hang on folks.
2021-02-10T14:14:56Z nij has to read up stuff quite often. The amount of new terminologies, to him, seem infinite.
2021-02-10T14:16:51Z Bike: it's a format for recording debugging information
2021-02-10T14:17:24Z nij: yep that's what i know so far
2021-02-10T14:17:24Z Bike: flip214 is probably thinking of things like dtrace that can get "samples" of what a process is doing from outside
2021-02-10T14:17:36Z nij: DTRACE! Another term :D
2021-02-10T14:17:48Z Nilby: I don't think lisp matches very well with the way DWARF works. It might be better to do it with a lisp tool, perhaps using techniques like sb-sprof.
2021-02-10T14:17:58Z nij: Bike: yeah but as you said, if everything is logged, then the speed is bad.
2021-02-10T14:18:06Z nij: So the problem is.. what are the things that must be logged?
2021-02-10T14:18:17Z flip214: Nilby: as long as you don't recompile, dwarf information should be good enough - especially when running a full image.
2021-02-10T14:18:56Z Bike: we use dwarf in clasp and it works alright, though we don't present as much information as we ought to yet
2021-02-10T14:19:05Z flip214: perf just records instruction pointers via frame pointers, but from kernel space, deduplicates stack traces, and lets userspace resolve them to names.
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2021-02-10T14:22:45Z Nilby: But DWARF stuff will only be there for things done compile-file? Or does it get dynamic stuff?
2021-02-10T14:26:04Z nij: Debugging, profiling, logging, testing - These seem to be a broader/generaler discipline. I should read some general information up I guess. I'm self-taught in CS.. could you recommend some reference that's great about this?
2021-02-10T14:26:34Z nij: Like.. I read the CL cookbook on those topics, but they seem too specific. I don't even have the general idea of what should be done.
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2021-02-10T14:29:02Z nij: I feel like this is more for #clschool, so I'll move this here. Sorry folks!
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2021-02-10T14:31:41Z nij: Inline: How's your makerlisp machine going?
2021-02-10T14:33:00Z flip214: Nilby: it should save all current function names with their ranges, at least. if you do that after dynamically compiling functions, they should be included.
2021-02-10T14:33:06Z flip214: at least that's my wish.
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2021-02-10T14:36:41Z Inline: nij: i got the full machine in a wood enclosure everything is already set up, vga-board, usb-controller-board with the usb key etc...
2021-02-10T14:37:01Z Inline: nij: i just need to find a suitable usb keyboard which fits the enclosure
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2021-02-10T14:37:31Z Inline: nij: no idea but on first glance i couldn't find anything suitable on amazon or ebay yet
2021-02-10T14:37:48Z Inline: nij: doesn't have to be retro just fitting
2021-02-10T14:37:51Z Bike: Nilby: you can generate it for stuff like COMPILE, there's just no source info
2021-02-10T14:37:57Z Bike: so it'll just have where variables are and such
2021-02-10T14:38:07Z Inline: nij: and i have to order some of the quality breadboards too
2021-02-10T14:38:14Z nij: Inline: exciting!
2021-02-10T14:38:28Z nij: There should be more info coming out. I wonder what it can do (besides of fun).
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2021-02-10T14:39:07Z Inline: nij: cause i have a lab breadboard down in my cellar, and i supplied voltage from my soldering station to it (since it can do that) but the lanes are not getting voltage or something else is not ok with it (some lanes do get voltage but not all)
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2021-02-10T14:40:23Z Inline: heh
2021-02-10T14:40:26Z nij: heh
2021-02-10T14:40:46Z Inline: slowly but steadily i think i will complete all the needed parts in order to get started with some hobby electronics thing
2021-02-10T14:41:09Z Inline: not sure how far i can get with it, and i also discovered my eyes are not so good when looking at stuff from very near
2021-02-10T14:41:21Z Inline: so i suppose i got to get a zooming lens too or so
2021-02-10T14:41:33Z nij: sounds like a whole lot of fun!
2021-02-10T14:41:48Z Inline: ja but it takes a whole lotta time ....
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2021-02-10T14:41:55Z Inline: especially since covid .....
2021-02-10T14:42:15Z nij: for shipping?
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2021-02-10T14:42:24Z Inline: yes
2021-02-10T14:42:27Z Inline: ofc
2021-02-10T14:43:13Z nij: oh.. :-( Here in the states amazon and ebay still deliver fast
2021-02-10T14:43:21Z nij: dunno about overseas..
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2021-02-10T14:43:32Z nij: is there any OS that you can run on makerlisp already?
2021-02-10T14:44:54Z Inline: well it's fast enough yet
2021-02-10T14:45:08Z Inline: i mean still
2021-02-10T14:45:11Z Inline: meh
2021-02-10T14:45:24Z Inline: you can run CP/M on it
2021-02-10T14:45:36Z Inline: since it's a Z80 machine
2021-02-10T14:45:40Z Inline: lol
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2021-02-10T14:46:00Z Inline: i suppose that's already installed even
2021-02-10T14:46:16Z Inline: i just need another sdcard for that device, have to look what the format is
2021-02-10T14:46:23Z nij: how about any lispos?
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2021-02-10T14:48:40Z lisp-machine: nij what is lispos?
2021-02-10T14:48:53Z Inline: no idea nij
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2021-02-10T14:49:32Z Nilby: nij: 8bit machines don't typically run an os in the sense you might think, they usually run one program at a time, one of which could be a thing that manipulates files and starts/boots other programs.
2021-02-10T14:49:41Z Inline: it has a builtin interpreter compatible with cl/scheme
2021-02-10T14:50:12Z Inline: hope i can find some documentation about it too
2021-02-10T14:50:15Z Inline: heh
2021-02-10T14:51:11Z nij: lisp-machine: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html
2021-02-10T14:51:30Z lisp-machine: ohhh cool!
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2021-02-10T14:51:44Z nij: Nilby: :-(
2021-02-10T14:51:53Z Inline: welp, the output voltage form the soldering station is in the range 0-15 or some such
2021-02-10T14:52:01Z nij: /!\ 2050 is when a LispOS will be on Desktops /!\
2021-02-10T14:52:06Z Inline: i suppose i have to buy a lab power bench too
2021-02-10T14:52:10Z Inline: some time.....
2021-02-10T14:53:00Z nij: lisp-machine: https://github.com/ghosthamlet/awesome-lisp-machine
2021-02-10T14:53:14Z Inline: it has an analog display, so the precision is not given like on a power bench
2021-02-10T14:53:22Z lisp-machine: nij: ahh yes ik that list
2021-02-10T14:54:05Z Inline: so if i should be in need of precise voltages then i have to i think
2021-02-10T14:54:13Z lisp-machine: but is there any lisp os that can actually be a daily driver?
2021-02-10T14:54:36Z Inline: there's mezzano
2021-02-10T14:54:48Z Inline: you can already put that on a usb stick or so
2021-02-10T14:55:39Z lisp-machine: Inline: right, but can you run non-mezzano software on it? or is it a closed ecosystem?
2021-02-10T14:56:15Z nij: I'm also wondering about that..
2021-02-10T14:56:32Z Inline: i tested it a few times in qemu already
2021-02-10T14:57:00Z Inline: and it works, but the config is not easy, to change keyboard layout you have to edit some file etc etc..
2021-02-10T14:57:02Z nij: Does any of them run x11?
2021-02-10T14:57:06Z ebrasca: nij: Mezzano does run bare metal.
2021-02-10T14:57:21Z lisp-machine: and how user-friendly is it? that's what most people care about.
2021-02-10T14:57:37Z lisp-machine: for a lisp os to become mainstream, it will have to be easy to use
2021-02-10T14:57:40Z Inline: jep bare metal, but still it need more drivers and driver-frameworks or so
2021-02-10T14:57:43Z phoe: >mainstream
2021-02-10T14:57:50Z phoe: forget about it unless you have major commercial backing
2021-02-10T14:57:56Z lisp-machine: sadly not everyone is a computer/programming geek like us
2021-02-10T14:58:27Z nij: i'd say true lispers are geeks among geeks among geeks.
2021-02-10T14:58:41Z nij: Does the population supercedes 10,000, in the whole world?
2021-02-10T14:58:54Z phoe: lisp-machine: either you have the heaps of money to get the required corporate backing, write or port all the software for that OS and to make the OS robust and secure and fast enough, or you don't get to make anything mainstream.
2021-02-10T14:58:57Z lisp-machine: nij: '(geek (geek (geek)))
2021-02-10T14:58:58Z Inline: even if i supply -kbd de from qemu you have to change it manually too, otherwise you have a horrible mixture and confusion
2021-02-10T14:59:05Z Inline: heh
2021-02-10T14:59:31Z nij: Inline: you should write a blog on that
2021-02-10T14:59:39Z lisp-machine: phoe: yeah ik, i was just theorizing and discussing. I don't actually plan on making a mainstream os lol.
2021-02-10T14:59:42Z nij: i got envious just by listening
2021-02-10T15:00:01Z phoe: you're not the first nor the last to theorize and dream about a lisp OS :D
2021-02-10T15:01:02Z nij: Ha ha
2021-02-10T15:01:19Z lisp-machine: of all the programming languages it's a great candidate for writing an os; maybe you could even write an os that's simply a running lisp repl (obviously that's a major oversimplification, but still...).
2021-02-10T15:01:57Z phoe: well, mezzano is a proof that it can be done with relatively little code - see the recent hacker news discussion o it
2021-02-10T15:02:00Z phoe: on it*
2021-02-10T15:02:11Z lisp-machine: ah
2021-02-10T15:02:13Z phoe: the issue is, as always, not enough people to do the boring work related to it
2021-02-10T15:02:39Z lisp-machine: but who wants to do boring work, for free?? :D
2021-02-10T15:02:51Z nij: But w ecan start making lisp repl as our main shell.
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2021-02-10T15:03:04Z nij: That would bring the experience closer to what you describe.
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2021-02-10T15:03:26Z nij: https://ambrevar.xyz/lisp-repl-shell/index.html  <== a fresh, great write-up
2021-02-10T15:03:51Z Inline: welp, i intend to actually get a whole system on breadboard
2021-02-10T15:04:03Z Inline: like the one from ben eater
2021-02-10T15:04:08Z Inline: eater.net
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2021-02-10T15:04:50Z Inline: that's just 6502 but anyway for getting a true understanding with computing i suppose it's a very good start
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2021-02-10T15:07:37Z Josh_2: https://www.timmons.dev/posts/static-executables-with-sbcl.html anyone seen this?
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2021-02-10T15:09:11Z Josh_2: Can't say I understand how it works but I think it would be a good feature
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2021-02-10T15:11:28Z beach: I wonder why my article on CLOSOS/LispOS seems to get more publicity than Mezzano.  I mean, Mezzano exists, whereas CLOSOS is still vaporware.  I know that CLOSOS suggests more advanced basic features than Mezzano does, but most people who speculate/dream about a LispOS probably haven't given much thought to such features.
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2021-02-10T15:13:55Z Nilby: Things always seems to work better in my imagination.
2021-02-10T15:14:12Z phoe: the grass is always greener on the other side too
2021-02-10T15:14:13Z Nilby: I run a mostly lisp command-line setup on top of other os's, but the big hurdles are fully replacing emacs, a browser, and a window system.
2021-02-10T15:14:25Z nij: Theories are clean, elegant, and appealing.
2021-02-10T15:14:26Z Gnuxie[m]: Was it posted somewhere?
2021-02-10T15:14:38Z nij: When they got implemented, lots of dirty stuffs go around.
2021-02-10T15:15:27Z nij: Nilby: could you elaborate?
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2021-02-10T15:15:46Z Nilby: But Mezzano is coming along well, and can run Doom, so
2021-02-10T15:16:17Z nij: DOOM?
2021-02-10T15:16:23Z phoe: doom
2021-02-10T15:16:29Z phoe: ported from C via LLVM-IR
2021-02-10T15:17:03Z flip214: no python, ruby, json, javascript, and perl inbetween? sad.
2021-02-10T15:17:11Z Josh_2: I think my fridge can run doom
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2021-02-10T15:18:55Z nij: It seems that why Lisp is great is essentially because of structures.. can anyone correct me on this point?
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2021-02-10T15:19:10Z phoe: structures?
2021-02-10T15:19:12Z phoe: what do you mean?
2021-02-10T15:19:50Z nij: In UNIX, communications among units are in the form of text, which lacks structures.
2021-02-10T15:20:20Z nij: So artificial transformations must be done, and that's pretty tedious and not flexible.
2021-02-10T15:20:27Z phoe: that isn't Lisp being good
2021-02-10T15:20:31Z phoe: that is Unix being horrible
2021-02-10T15:20:53Z phoe: you can structure your data with Lisp, Java, C++, Python, Perl, Haskell, Elm, C, literally almost every language out there
2021-02-10T15:21:14Z nij: xD
2021-02-10T15:21:16Z phoe: it's unix that tried to coerce everything into files and byte streams, and failed horribly at that.
2021-02-10T15:21:33Z nij: s/failed/succeeded/
2021-02-10T15:21:35Z nij: sadly
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2021-02-10T15:21:48Z Gnuxie[m]: If Unix had more parenthesis i'm sure a few people here would be dying to call masochism lisp
2021-02-10T15:21:49Z phoe: no, failed
2021-02-10T15:22:04Z Inline: eh ?
2021-02-10T15:22:08Z phoe: it tried to assume that everything is a file
2021-02-10T15:22:11Z Inline: you haven't tried GUIX then
2021-02-10T15:22:12Z Nilby: Lisp is great because it reflects how universes work on a fundamental level more thoroughly than most languages.
2021-02-10T15:22:13Z Inline: lol
2021-02-10T15:22:14Z nij: phoe: Well, but Lisp even preserves structures in its CODE.
2021-02-10T15:22:16Z phoe: and reality broke that assertion
2021-02-10T15:22:18Z Inline: it's schemeOS
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2021-02-10T15:22:48Z phoe: that's why we e.g. have ioctls all around to pretend that you can do other things with a file than merely read, write, or execute it
2021-02-10T15:22:57Z Inline: btw nixos etc are all in the same ballpark by measure of descriptiveness....
2021-02-10T15:22:57Z nij: Inline: GUIX is still pretty much UNIX, no?
2021-02-10T15:23:04Z Nilby: But there are trouble with lisp structured pipelines also, like what structure do you want?
2021-02-10T15:23:07Z phoe: nij: code? what do you mean
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2021-02-10T15:23:20Z phoe: I bet $5 that the source code of unix also has some structs inside it
2021-02-10T15:23:27Z Inline: they are all descriptive, i.e. you describe stuff in files and that's how it sets up things
2021-02-10T15:23:29Z phoe: I bet $50 that linux does, too
2021-02-10T15:23:37Z nij: phoe: By code I mean the textual presentation of lisp expression.
2021-02-10T15:23:43Z phoe: oh, good
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2021-02-10T15:23:45Z phoe: then C has those, too
2021-02-10T15:23:52Z nij: ?
2021-02-10T15:24:15Z phoe: Linux/Unix/whatever has structures in the textual presentation of C code
2021-02-10T15:24:34Z phoe: you just can't easily interface with most of them from inside the bash shell - that's the difference.
2021-02-10T15:25:06Z phoe: you're isolated via a layer of shell, and shell usually pretends that everything is text rather than structured objects.
2021-02-10T15:25:30Z phoe: the Lisp REPL doesn't pretend so
2021-02-10T15:26:57Z nij: So instead of returning plain texts, we should return what?
2021-02-10T15:27:03Z phoe: objects!
2021-02-10T15:27:04Z nij: Lisp objects? Or Lisp codes?
2021-02-10T15:27:11Z phoe: what do you mean, Lisp codes
2021-02-10T15:27:24Z phoe: every Lisp expression is a Lisp object anyway
2021-02-10T15:27:30Z nij: but not vice versea
2021-02-10T15:27:49Z nij: can you lift any Lisp object back to a Lisp expression?
2021-02-10T15:27:54Z Inline: baaah
2021-02-10T15:27:58Z Inline: i ate another usb stick
2021-02-10T15:28:07Z phoe: well, trying to evaluate ((())) is going to signal an error
2021-02-10T15:28:16Z Inline: since yesterday 128Gb stick is gone, some sectors do not react
2021-02-10T15:28:30Z Inline: i suppose it overheated overnight when i left llvm compilation on it running....
2021-02-10T15:28:51Z nij: oop
2021-02-10T15:28:58Z Inline: i tried new formatting even that didn't work
2021-02-10T15:29:06Z Inline: neither fsck
2021-02-10T15:29:06Z phoe: oops, s/expression/form/
2021-02-10T15:29:11Z phoe: so even though ((())) is a valid object, it's not a Lisp form
2021-02-10T15:29:27Z Inline: it tries to fix some inode counts and then it's gone for ever
2021-02-10T15:30:29Z nij: phoe: Is any Lisp object a Lisp form?
2021-02-10T15:30:39Z phoe: no - as I said above, ((())) is not a form
2021-02-10T15:31:04Z nij: Hmm.. ok. If we return objects instead of texts..
2021-02-10T15:31:06Z Nilby: Inline: big usb sticks are more complicated that most people think. I have a paranoia that I always let them sit for a little while after writing data.
2021-02-10T15:31:07Z phoe: a form is an object that is meant to be evaluated
2021-02-10T15:31:14Z phoe: nij: do not overthink it
2021-02-10T15:31:14Z nij: How would different machines communicate?
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2021-02-10T15:31:21Z phoe: your REPL already does this
2021-02-10T15:31:34Z phoe: it returns objects that are then printed so you can take a peek at what is inside there
2021-02-10T15:31:35Z nij: phoe: Yeah, but how about different machines?
2021-02-10T15:32:00Z phoe: and there's always the issue of serialization/deserialization over the network; see e.g. CL-CONSPACK for one library that solves this
2021-02-10T15:32:08Z nij: Foundamentally it's just 0 and 1s. I don't know how other machines would be able to understand the Lisp objects I produce locally.
2021-02-10T15:32:28Z Nilby: i've been keeping up on working out, and now I a lift almost any lisp object
2021-02-10T15:33:01Z Inline: welp, given a consecutive byte series you have the problem of where to start and in how big chunks to eat it
2021-02-10T15:33:17Z Inline: given non-consecutive it gets more hairy even
2021-02-10T15:33:23Z nij: Nilby: now you can?
2021-02-10T15:33:31Z nij: haha ok it's a joke
2021-02-10T15:33:39Z Inline: np-hard ?
2021-02-10T15:33:41Z Inline: lol
2021-02-10T15:34:18Z nij: phoe ! It claims that "Conspack provides the ability to serialize and deserialize objects of any kind."
2021-02-10T15:34:21Z nij: Is this true?!?!?!?!?!
2021-02-10T15:35:01Z Nilby: 😂
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2021-02-10T15:35:20Z Inline: that's just for interpreting
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2021-02-10T15:35:52Z nij: btw who is robert.strandh@gmail.com
2021-02-10T15:35:56Z phoe: nij: yes
2021-02-10T15:36:00Z phoe: as long as you teach it how to do it
2021-02-10T15:36:04Z phoe: nij: it's beach
2021-02-10T15:36:11Z Inline: if you have jump addresses encoded, then you have the problem of recognizing them and having the same instruction set etc...
2021-02-10T15:36:24Z nij: loving the blog
2021-02-10T15:36:29Z Inline: i suppose that would be the abi layer
2021-02-10T15:36:30Z nij: should binge it sometime
2021-02-10T15:36:50Z Inline: same with pointers/references etc etc
2021-02-10T15:36:57Z nij: phoe: Dang that means different machines can also exchange objects! at least in common lisp!?
2021-02-10T15:37:07Z nij: how about compiled objects? still yes?
2021-02-10T15:37:08Z Josh_2: nij: pretty sure everything is an object on windows
2021-02-10T15:37:33Z phoe: nij: what do you mean, compiled objects?
2021-02-10T15:38:27Z phoe: functions and such? these likely won't work
2021-02-10T15:38:30Z nij: eh.. like a compiled function. It's also a lisp object, right?
2021-02-10T15:38:31Z phoe: if you want to pass code around, use FASLs
2021-02-10T15:38:42Z Bike: it says "any kind" but it's in a section about CLOS
2021-02-10T15:39:10Z phoe: so likely this means classes and structures
2021-02-10T15:39:20Z nij: Bike: section name - CLOS and general objects
2021-02-10T15:39:38Z Bike: yeah, i mean, look at the rest though, it's all slots and stuff
2021-02-10T15:39:49Z Bike: i don't see how conspack could possibly de/serialize functions
2021-02-10T15:39:53Z nij: Yeah that's why i was confused.
2021-02-10T15:40:12Z phoe: Bike: not without going into implementation internals and ensuring that there's no closures in play and such
2021-02-10T15:40:32Z nij: There should be a way to do it.. hopefully it has existed already. Then machines can communicate by throwing Lisp objects at each other <3 <3 <3
2021-02-10T15:40:37Z Bike: even with internals it would be difficult. i mean, functions aren't even serializable by implementations, usually
2021-02-10T15:40:45Z Bike: through compile-file i mean
2021-02-10T15:41:04Z nij: that's bad
2021-02-10T15:41:06Z phoe: nij: erlang has it, but that's because erlang functions are much more constrained than Lisp ones
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2021-02-10T15:41:25Z phoe: you can work around this though, just pass Lisp forms around and have the other Lisp image evaluate them
2021-02-10T15:41:28Z Bike: closures aren't so much a problem, but with literals and linking it'll get bad
2021-02-10T15:41:28Z nij: but each function, while constructed, was from an evaluation of a piece of CODE, right?
2021-02-10T15:41:52Z nij: Why don't we just ask the compiled function to remember that piece of code?
2021-02-10T15:41:54Z phoe: yes, ultimately a function is created when someone calls COMPILE or FUNCTION or COERCE or DEFUN or whatever
2021-02-10T15:41:58Z phoe: we can do that
2021-02-10T15:42:01Z phoe: clhs function-lambda-expression
2021-02-10T15:42:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
2021-02-10T15:42:13Z Bike: because the production of a function is dependent on the context in which it was created
2021-02-10T15:42:36Z phoe: but what Bike said, not all functions can be reproduced from their textual representation
2021-02-10T15:42:41Z nij: Bike: let it remember all the information?
2021-02-10T15:42:42Z Bike: if your function source has a macro form in it, say, and you've redefined the macro between producing the function and serializing it, reproducing the function from the source will get you a function with distinct behavior
2021-02-10T15:42:54Z _death: check out common-cold for serializable closures
2021-02-10T15:43:00Z phoe checks
2021-02-10T15:43:08Z Bike: "my latest hack"
2021-02-10T15:43:16Z nij: pull the environmental details whatever it needs to re-produce ?
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2021-02-10T15:43:50Z Bike: there's a lot of the environment to remember
2021-02-10T15:44:00Z Bike: whether things are special, what things are functions, what symbol macros don't exist
2021-02-10T15:44:06Z Bike: it's not impossible, but it's work
2021-02-10T15:44:07Z phoe: _death: seems like www.discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/common-cold/ does not respond
2021-02-10T15:44:29Z nij: Bike: hmm
2021-02-10T15:45:25Z nij: https://pvk.ca/Blog/Lisp/CommonCold/common_cold_latest_hack.html
2021-02-10T15:46:08Z phoe: yes, and that's all
2021-02-10T15:46:15Z phoe: the link to the code itself does not work
2021-02-10T15:46:38Z nij: phoe: right.. so back to "returning objects"
2021-02-10T15:46:49Z nij: if functions cannot easily be fully serialized
2021-02-10T15:47:01Z nij: and functions are Lisp objects that show up commonly
2021-02-10T15:47:11Z nij: how would different machines communicate?
2021-02-10T15:47:22Z phoe: look up the term Remote Procedure Call
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2021-02-10T15:48:11Z _death: phoe: you can likely get it via wayback machine.. or I can put it online if you wish
2021-02-10T15:48:19Z phoe: _death: please do
2021-02-10T15:48:37Z phoe: the archive does not have it
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2021-02-10T15:49:00Z phoe: ...oh wait, it does!
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2021-02-10T15:50:20Z _death: https://adeht.org/dump/common-cold.tar.gz
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2021-02-10T15:51:42Z phoe: thanks
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2021-02-10T15:55:59Z phoe: nij: also, flinging functions around still does not solve everything
2021-02-10T15:56:51Z phoe: even if you could serialize, transmit, and deserialize (lambda () (read-byte-from-serial-port)) then I think you can imagine the trouble
2021-02-10T15:57:11Z Nilby: it's fun when you send your top level app object thru the network, and pops off of one screen on to the other
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2021-02-10T16:00:47Z nij: phoe: I cannot imagine the trouble.
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2021-02-10T16:01:03Z phoe: nij: calling this function on different machines is going to produce different results
2021-02-10T16:01:04Z nij: I am still looking into the term RPC, but it's not clear to me how much it's achieved.
2021-02-10T16:01:31Z phoe: you basically tell the remote server which function it should run, and then wait for it to give you some results back
2021-02-10T16:01:36Z phoe: that's how swank works!
2021-02-10T16:01:49Z Nilby: RPC has achived quite a bit
2021-02-10T16:01:57Z nij: but how would the remote machine know what exactly is the prodedure to be run?
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2021-02-10T16:03:04Z Nilby: for example NFS works that way with C rpc
2021-02-10T16:03:21Z Nilby: there's also multiple lisp versions of NFS
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2021-02-10T16:03:54Z Bike: the caller and the callee processes agree on a common language of behaviors, and then the caller just sends a message naming the behavior to be performed.
2021-02-10T16:04:14Z Bike: basically the caller only needs to name a procedure to run.
2021-02-10T16:04:34Z nij: how about the information that's in the closure?
2021-02-10T16:04:34Z phoe: nij: in case of lisp, you pass it as a string
2021-02-10T16:04:48Z phoe: the closure exists on the server side
2021-02-10T16:05:04Z phoe: the client doesn't need to know about it
2021-02-10T16:05:11Z Nilby: X11 is basically RPC
2021-02-10T16:05:19Z phoe: or, rather: it tells the server that it should access that closure and give back some results
2021-02-10T16:05:24Z phoe: e.g. by calling it!
2021-02-10T16:05:24Z nij: And while client needs info from the closure, it asks the server?
2021-02-10T16:05:29Z phoe: yes
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2021-02-10T16:05:36Z phoe: try the following in your REPL
2021-02-10T16:05:37Z nij: DANG! O_O eye opening
2021-02-10T16:05:49Z phoe: (let ((x 42)) (lambda () x))
2021-02-10T16:05:53Z phoe: (funcall *)
2021-02-10T16:06:00Z phoe: in both cases you are sending strings over swank
2021-02-10T16:06:10Z phoe: and yet the first string creates a functon object
2021-02-10T16:06:16Z phoe: and the second gives you the closed-over value
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2021-02-10T16:06:59Z nij: how about functions over functions? Same, without a problem?
2021-02-10T16:07:00Z Nilby: also most web API's are like RPC, sometimes even with javascript sent in JSON
2021-02-10T16:07:22Z phoe: what do you mean, functions over functions?
2021-02-10T16:07:37Z nij: (let ((x #'some-func)) (lambda () x))
2021-02-10T16:07:45Z phoe: it's a value like any other
2021-02-10T16:07:50Z _death: I think it makes sense to distinguish RPC, which tries to make remoting "transparent", and can't but fail, from communication by message passing
2021-02-10T16:07:57Z nij: nah.......
2021-02-10T16:08:00Z phoe: again, #'some-func only exists on the server side
2021-02-10T16:08:05Z nij: yeah
2021-02-10T16:08:10Z nij: the client might need it at some point
2021-02-10T16:08:20Z nij: so it asks the server to give #'some-func
2021-02-10T16:08:22Z phoe: all you see is the string "#'some-func" or the string "#<FUNCTION SOME-FUNC>"
2021-02-10T16:08:29Z nij: however, the problem is that it's hard to deliver function as a whole
2021-02-10T16:08:31Z phoe: and you come back to the issue of serialization
2021-02-10T16:08:37Z nij: yeah
2021-02-10T16:08:39Z nij: so it breaks down?
2021-02-10T16:08:55Z phoe: yes, serializing state is a tough problem in general
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2021-02-10T16:09:16Z phoe: *especially* in image-based programs where you essentially need to pack the whole image in the worst case
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2021-02-10T16:09:52Z nij: :-(
2021-02-10T16:10:07Z phoe: Erlang and other BEAM languages solve it by sending out functions in their bytecode-compiled format
2021-02-10T16:10:28Z phoe: but these functions are pure and do not depend on any global state, so it's easy to clean-cut a single function
2021-02-10T16:10:34Z nij: yeah
2021-02-10T16:10:51Z nij: If a function isn't pure, a closure should be sent.
2021-02-10T16:10:52Z jackdaniel: cl could send you whole heap and I think that would be brilliant
2021-02-10T16:10:53Z phoe: Lisp functions are more messy in this regard, also because they are machine-compiled in the general case
2021-02-10T16:10:57Z _death: "serialization" is often a bad solution.. more often it's better to define explicit messages or object layouts
2021-02-10T16:11:05Z phoe: ^
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2021-02-10T16:11:10Z jackdaniel: here is a function with a 8gb state
2021-02-10T16:11:28Z nij: _death: but that's unix?
2021-02-10T16:11:29Z nij: no
2021-02-10T16:11:36Z Fade: have any of you folks worked with cl-yesql?
2021-02-10T16:11:41Z phoe: Fade: I have
2021-02-10T16:11:42Z _death: nij: ?
2021-02-10T16:11:48Z phoe: what's unix?
2021-02-10T16:11:51Z Fade: I'm looking for a funcitonal example.
2021-02-10T16:12:05Z phoe: Fade: uh, I don't think I have anything working at this very moment...
2021-02-10T16:12:07Z phoe: one moment
2021-02-10T16:12:11Z Fade: 'cause what I'm doing is wrong.
2021-02-10T16:12:32Z phoe: try looking at https://github.com/phoe-trash/gateway/tree/master/sql
2021-02-10T16:12:36Z nij: "define explicit messages or object layouts" ... this is against what phoe said (paraphrased) "we should return objects instead of text"
2021-02-10T16:12:39Z phoe: I have not touched this code in a long while and it might have bitrotted
2021-02-10T16:12:59Z phoe: nij: yes, and what I said is usually possible on a single machine
2021-02-10T16:13:05Z Fade: thanks!
2021-02-10T16:13:07Z phoe: not over wire formats
2021-02-10T16:13:15Z _death: nij: https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/info-rep.txt
2021-02-10T16:13:37Z phoe: in particular, you cannot and should not e.g. dereference pointers over the network
2021-02-10T16:13:45Z nij: phoe: OH! That's why we need a single address space, as in beach's essay.
2021-02-10T16:13:50Z Nilby: _death always coming through with the goods :)
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2021-02-10T16:14:01Z phoe: nij: yes
2021-02-10T16:14:06Z phoe: two machines have two address spaces
2021-02-10T16:14:10Z phoe: (just like two C programs)
2021-02-10T16:14:28Z phoe: and you cannot easily merge them unless you also merge their GCs and what else
2021-02-10T16:14:30Z nij: _death: you keep a zettlekasten or somethin'?
2021-02-10T16:14:33Z phoe: and *that* would be messy and troublesome
2021-02-10T16:14:45Z nij: phoe: HMM
2021-02-10T16:15:11Z nij: Then I wouldn't say UNIX failed..
2021-02-10T16:15:19Z nij: at the end everything is still "text"
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2021-02-10T16:15:39Z nij: we just need to write some protocol to lift text to objects
2021-02-10T16:16:04Z phoe: it failed at the assumption that it is feasible to represent everything as streams of bytes
2021-02-10T16:16:09Z lisp-machine: is there a way I could "farm out" intensive task threads to different pcs?
2021-02-10T16:16:14Z phoe: especially with regard to internal representation
2021-02-10T16:16:18Z phoe: lisp-machine: check out swank-crew
2021-02-10T16:16:25Z phoe: and/or lfarm
2021-02-10T16:16:34Z lisp-machine: phoe, ok thanks!
2021-02-10T16:16:41Z phoe: <3
2021-02-10T16:16:46Z lisp-machine: :)
2021-02-10T16:16:55Z _death: nij: it's all in my internal representation :/
2021-02-10T16:17:10Z nij: _death: ha hehe
2021-02-10T16:17:24Z nij: (dump '_death)
2021-02-10T16:19:50Z Nilby: unix failed in that it wanted to be plan9/inferno, but the lisp ideas are mostly better, so instead we half-ass wanna-be lisp machine in the form javascirpt web browser
2021-02-10T16:20:29Z nij: did we?
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2021-02-10T16:26:19Z _death: Accept: application/lisp
2021-02-10T16:27:11Z _death: lispers should've invented a better graphql
2021-02-10T16:28:00Z phoe: technically yes, but everyone was busy complaining about unix, and then the first ai winter happened
2021-02-10T16:29:05Z Fade: the lisp machine could not have succeeded where unix did, because shipping a computer with a graphical display and enough ram to run genera was an impossible hurdle at the time.
2021-02-10T16:29:10Z Fade: the costs were too high.
2021-02-10T16:29:35Z Fade: also, lisp machines didn't make good servers, as delivered by symbolics and TI
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2021-02-10T16:34:12Z Fade: I did, however, hear that the White House website ran on a symbolics computer right up through the end of Bill Clinton's administration.
2021-02-10T16:35:59Z Nilby: I think that hints at the deeper reasons. Funding for lisp was yank. Genera ran pretty sweet on alpha, even emulated. Genera could "easily" be ported to sbcl right now if it were "allowed".
2021-02-10T16:36:22Z Fade: there are good ideas in Genera
2021-02-10T16:36:43Z Fade: I doubt any of us would actually want to use it as our computational platform day to day, now, though.
2021-02-10T16:37:07Z Fade: backfilling the tools and utility space alone would be a fulltime job.
2021-02-10T16:37:09Z nij: Fade: how would that work? Many programs we're used to won't run.
2021-02-10T16:37:26Z Fade: natch
2021-02-10T16:38:16Z Nilby: I would. What utility space?
2021-02-10T16:38:25Z Fade: you may as well just start writing the utilities you need in McCLIM.
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2021-02-10T16:38:46Z Fade: webbrowser, compilers for C, C++
2021-02-10T16:38:50Z Fade: webservers
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2021-02-10T16:39:01Z Fade: I guess zmacs could be modernised
2021-02-10T16:39:07Z Nilby: The hardest parts would be making a drivers for say nvidia, wifi, etc.
2021-02-10T16:39:20Z Nilby: where stuff is hidden in blobs
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2021-02-10T16:39:40Z Fade: if you want a lisp machine, the way forward is to take linux as a driver substrate, and write a userland on top of it.
2021-02-10T16:39:48Z Nilby: genera had a C compiler, web stuff
2021-02-10T16:40:19Z Fade: well, you can download Genera and run it. Try it out, and let us know how it goes.
2021-02-10T16:42:03Z Nilby: I can run it. Also folks around here have running Symbolics machines. The problem is like I said, drivers for new hardware. If you notice, that's the difficulty with Mezzano too.
2021-02-10T16:42:45Z Fade: that's a problem for everything that isn't inside the proprietary ecosystem.
2021-02-10T16:42:48Z aeth: You definitely want to run on top of Linux for the foreseeable future. And even if you switch to your own kernel one day, you still need to be able to run Linux apps without recompiling. Even Windows is trying to be compatible there these days.
2021-02-10T16:43:15Z aeth: Through wine, you also get most Windows stuff for "free" if you can run Linux stuff.
2021-02-10T16:43:47Z Fade: within the context of a Genera style lisp machine, a windows or linux application would be comically out of place.
2021-02-10T16:44:14Z Fade: but I do think that running on top of Linux is the only way that a lisp machine operating system would become a practical reality.
2021-02-10T16:44:18Z Fade: as neat as mezzano is.
2021-02-10T16:44:20Z Nilby: aeth: Yes, I basically agree. Although I wish it was Linux/wine on top of Genera
2021-02-10T16:44:34Z aeth: Fade: Yeah, but until you write a web browser that's fully comparable to Firefox or Safari or the many forks of Chromium, then your OS is completely unusable without being able to just run Firefox-for-Linux or whatever.
2021-02-10T16:44:48Z aeth: And some websites don't even function 100% correctly in Firefox because Chrome is a monopoly.
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2021-02-10T16:45:31Z Fade: the proprietary secret hardware is a threat to all systems. I really hate nvidia.
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2021-02-10T16:45:53Z Fade: a native graphical display system would be so cool.
2021-02-10T16:46:00Z Fade: ah well.
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2021-02-10T16:47:59Z _death: not everyone cares for every tidbit of the web.. and ports to some hardware monocultures don't seem beyond reach.. e.g., a mezzano port for the pinephone..
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2021-02-10T16:48:50Z aeth: _death: Not everyone cares about the complete web, but you can't deny that "web apps" make up for the lack of native apps for the most part. So a web browser would absolutely be the #1 priority of any new OS.
2021-02-10T16:49:08Z aeth: Probably ahead of a C compiler, even.
2021-02-10T16:49:11Z _death: aeth: I can deny that..
2021-02-10T16:49:33Z aeth: Well, then, you're wrong. :-p
2021-02-10T16:50:02Z _death: instead of trying to make something for the 99%, I'm more interested in things that work for the <%1 that include me ;)
2021-02-10T16:50:13Z _death: <1%
2021-02-10T16:50:34Z Nilby sometimes uses a text mode brower
2021-02-10T16:50:42Z aeth: You can get around in a system where you have a complete web browser. Even if you don't like the web apps you'll have to use.
2021-02-10T16:50:52Z _death: emacs-w3m a lot.. also, gmane/gwene..
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2021-02-10T16:51:33Z nij: Has anyone worked with Mac OS X? I want to estimate how hard it is to port stumpwm to macbooks.
2021-02-10T16:51:41Z _death: there's already a lisp web browser (closure).. it just needs some work
2021-02-10T16:52:20Z nij: _death: why not nyxt?
2021-02-10T16:52:41Z _death: nij: that's more like a browser shell
2021-02-10T16:52:51Z phoe: it wraps a giant blob of C++ code so it's not a pure "lisp browser" technically speaking
2021-02-10T16:52:53Z aeth: we're talking more about rendering engines than browsers
2021-02-10T16:52:54Z Nilby: nij: you can't run a window manager on macbooks unless its X11, so then you can just run stumpwm
2021-02-10T16:53:11Z _death: nij: personally I stay away from web browsers (see emacs-w3m) but I guess that's another avenue if you don't mind foreign code
2021-02-10T16:53:22Z aeth: I think you can bootstrap a web browser rendering engine by implementing your UI as a subset of HTML5 and just adding more features over time, naturally.
2021-02-10T16:53:26Z aeth: Might take like 10 years, but whatever.
2021-02-10T16:53:36Z aeth: As long as it's not for the "open web" it doesn't matter.
2021-02-10T16:53:40Z nij: Nilby: I mean.. it should be possible to hack stumpwm for it to work on MacOSX right?
2021-02-10T16:54:03Z Nilby: What window manager does macos native run?
2021-02-10T16:54:10Z nij: _death: why stay away?
2021-02-10T16:54:13Z _death: nij: I do use firefox/chromium in a strange, customized setup.. but the web is mostly dead for me
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2021-02-10T16:55:05Z nij: Nilby: I dunno@@ but there are several that work iirc
2021-02-10T16:55:07Z aeth: _death: Well, you can avoid the web, but only if you implement a Python that's complete enough to run youtube-dl :-p
2021-02-10T16:55:20Z aeth: Despite the name, youtube-dl really does download videos from pretty much everywhere.
2021-02-10T16:55:30Z Nilby: nij: under macos without X11?
2021-02-10T16:55:39Z nij: _death: I don't really understand what you mean @@ Have you tried nyxt?
2021-02-10T16:56:02Z _death: nij: not sure it's on-topic anymore.. let's say my relationship with today's technology and the values promoted is.. ambivalent
2021-02-10T16:56:42Z _death: aeth: I have some erc hack to launch mpv for youtube links ;)
2021-02-10T16:56:58Z aeth: _death: idk about mpv, but apparently vlc just uses youtube-dl under the hood
2021-02-10T16:57:05Z _death: aeth: mpv does the same
2021-02-10T16:57:11Z Nilby: i'd say my relationship with today's technology is abusive (on both parts)
2021-02-10T16:57:22Z aeth: it's too hard for more than one project to keep up with working around the API changes in literally every site that hosts video ever
2021-02-10T16:57:36Z aeth: (well, at least non-DRMed video)
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2021-02-10T17:00:18Z Nilby: aeth: some can jwz.org/hacks/youtubedown
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2021-02-10T17:01:06Z aeth: Nilby: that's.... 4 sites
2021-02-10T17:01:14Z aeth: youtube-dl is literally everywhere, as I said
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2021-02-10T17:02:16Z Nilby: true, I guess have minimal requirements
2021-02-10T17:02:19Z aeth: https://github.com/ytdl-org/youtube-dl/blob/master/docs/supportedsites.md
2021-02-10T17:02:27Z Cthulhux: if anyone here speaks rust, my own youtube-dl implementation could need everyone: https://github.com/dertuxmalwieder/yaydl
2021-02-10T17:02:28Z Cthulhux: :-)
2021-02-10T17:02:34Z aeth: 1202 lines, so 1201 sites?
2021-02-10T17:02:48Z aeth: Trust me, it would be easier to make a Python-in-CL be able to run youtube-dl than it would be to duplicate that effort
2021-02-10T17:03:42Z _death: cl-python also needs some work
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2021-02-10T17:08:15Z Josh_2: Thats not a lisp library
2021-02-10T17:08:41Z aeth: As far as a LispOS goes, you absolutely need to reimplement-in-CL (or just support, but that's not as cool) Python, JavaScript, and probably POSIX shell.
2021-02-10T17:09:10Z aeth: Quite a few Linux distro scripts are also still written in Ruby and Perl.
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2021-02-10T17:10:40Z aeth: The old LispOSes jut needed a C compiler...
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2021-02-10T17:25:36Z hineios: Hi all, can someone explain to me why the first FORMAT outputs the correct amount of whitespace and the second one doesn't?
2021-02-10T17:25:37Z hineios: https://pastebin.com/gFyaDp40
2021-02-10T17:26:05Z hineios: I've tested with both ACL and SBCL and I have the same result.
2021-02-10T17:27:09Z aeth: oh, wow, that's a really good question
2021-02-10T17:27:59Z hineios: Its weird... if there are no format directive/argument afterwards it just does print the spaces...
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2021-02-10T17:28:14Z phoe: this seems wonky
2021-02-10T17:28:21Z phoe: check out (format t "~&~v@{ ~}foo" 3 'foo) !
2021-02-10T17:28:26Z phoe: it prints the spaces normally
2021-02-10T17:28:34Z phoe: even though the 'FOO argument is obviously not used
2021-02-10T17:28:36Z hineios: yes.
2021-02-10T17:28:42Z phoe: smells like a bug to me
2021-02-10T17:29:04Z hineios: if I provide the space as an argument it also prints correctly.
2021-02-10T17:29:53Z phoe: hmmm
2021-02-10T17:29:58Z phoe: maybe it has to do with ~@
2021-02-10T17:29:59Z hineios: I thought so at first, but when both ACL and SBCL have the same behavior.... maybe it is some weird edge case?
2021-02-10T17:30:13Z _death: it looks ok to me
2021-02-10T17:30:30Z _death: the @ modifier for ~{ means the rest of the arguments are used
2021-02-10T17:30:45Z hineios: Ah! yes, I see it now!
2021-02-10T17:30:47Z _death: in the second form this list is empty
2021-02-10T17:30:58Z contrapunctus: Uhm...what's going on here? `(uiop:directory-files (uiop:getcwd))` shows that there's a .ASD file in the current directory. But `(load "file.asd")` says the file doesn't exist :(
2021-02-10T17:31:30Z hineios: thanks _death!
2021-02-10T17:31:31Z jasom: contrapunctus: getcwd is not necessarily the same as default-pathname maybe?
2021-02-10T17:31:50Z phoe: contrapunctus: *default-pathname-defaults*
2021-02-10T17:32:25Z jasom: also you should probably use load-asd for loading asd files; most of the time it doesn't matter, but when it does, it will save you some confusion
2021-02-10T17:32:54Z contrapunctus: jasom, phoe: oh...so why doesn't `uiop:chdir` not modify that variable? 🤔
2021-02-10T17:33:32Z jasom: contrapunctus: uiop:chdir will change the operationg systems current directory, which matters when you run external commands.  That is different from changing the default load path for loading files.
2021-02-10T17:34:48Z contrapunctus reads about what determines the value of *default-pathname-defaults*
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2021-02-10T17:36:07Z jasom: similarly, the following won't necessarily return "/" since the *default-pathname-defaults* may not affect the current working directory: (let ((*default-pathname-defaults* #p"/")) (uiop:run-program "pwd" :output :string))
2021-02-10T17:37:04Z jasom: The main confusion is probably that at startup time, *default-pathname-defaults* is set to the current working directory on most implementations.
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2021-02-10T17:42:13Z contrapunctus: Ah, I see. I was basically trying to load my system without typing out `(ql:quickload ...)` for every dependency...sounds like I wanted `asdf:load-system`
2021-02-10T17:42:23Z contrapunctus: Thanks 🙂
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2021-02-10T17:50:32Z hineios: _death actually I haven't seen it yet... as I understand it now, the problem is that the iteration provided by the `@` as zero elements, right? meaning that there will be no iterations. but shouldn't the `v` directive force the iteration to occur `v` times?
2021-02-10T17:51:33Z hineios: "at most"!
2021-02-10T17:51:34Z hineios: not "at least"....
2021-02-10T17:52:05Z hineios: ok, I see my error now, sorry for the monologue.
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2021-02-10T17:52:27Z phoe: "Also, if a prefix parameter n is given, then there will be at most n repetitions of processing of str."
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2021-02-10T17:52:36Z phoe: zero is <= than n
2021-02-10T17:52:41Z phoe: and you have zero elements in your list
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2021-02-10T17:52:46Z phoe: so you will iterate zero times
2021-02-10T17:52:48Z phoe: I also see it now
2021-02-10T17:52:55Z hineios: Exactly!
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2021-02-10T18:46:49Z Josh_2: With regards to the hyperspec license would using iframes with direct links to the relevant pages constitute a violation of the license?
2021-02-10T18:47:11Z Josh_2: Perhaps they could be used so that the content doesn't have to be rewritten but it would make it possible for someone to add annotations or more code examples
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2021-02-10T18:55:37Z recalloc: Decided to benchmark babel and trivial-utf-8 and results are mixed: https://github.com/fukamachi/fast-websocket/pull/7#issuecomment-776933813
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2021-02-10T18:55:54Z recalloc: Assuming fukamachi prioritizes speed, he'll likely decline the PR
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2021-02-10T18:57:30Z pyc: Where does slime-describe-symbol (C-d C-d C-d) fetch symbol documentation from? It does not seem to be CLHS. What is it then?
2021-02-10T18:58:35Z Bike: looks like that calls swank:describe-symbol, which just calls describe
2021-02-10T18:58:49Z Bike: which your implementation probably uses cl:documentation for
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2021-02-10T19:02:28Z Josh_2: recalloc: looks like we need a new library that includes Babels encoder and Trivial UTF's decoder :P
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2021-02-10T19:06:07Z recalloc: Josh_2: I'm unironically tempted to pull trivial's decoder over to babel. Gotta look at the licenses, though
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2021-02-10T19:07:47Z recalloc: Babel's license is MIT. Trivial's is Zlib. Hmm...
2021-02-10T19:08:32Z recalloc: Ultimately making a third coding library would mean that many projects would invariably depend on three projects, which would make things worse than I intended
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2021-02-10T20:07:25Z mfiano: Hey all, could someone help me out with some array indexing nonsense?
2021-02-10T20:07:53Z recalloc: I can give it a shot
2021-02-10T20:08:01Z recalloc: No promises, though! :)
2021-02-10T20:08:59Z mfiano: I have this constant form that repeats 24 array's of size 2 2048 times. in the comment below, i want to convert it to a flat array of 48 numbers, with the same sequencing...i did something wrong though https://gist.github.com/mfiano/61ae5389285100056c136c8575d34ff4
2021-02-10T20:10:33Z mfiano: comparing with #'mismatch says they are off at position 26
2021-02-10T20:10:52Z mfiano: (after flattening the old version of course)
2021-02-10T20:12:27Z recalloc: And I'm assuming the old array looks like #2A((13.031 98.982) (38.205 92.237)) and so on, right?
2021-02-10T20:12:42Z mfiano: No, it's not a 2d array. its a vector of vectors
2021-02-10T20:13:14Z mfiano: well the lexical variable is anyway. the result of that constant is a flat array of vectors
2021-02-10T20:13:17Z recalloc: ohh ok, so #(#(a b) #(c d)...)
2021-02-10T20:13:23Z mfiano: yes
2021-02-10T20:13:41Z mfiano: I want the new version to be #(a b c d)
2021-02-10T20:13:59Z mfiano: What I have does infact produce all 4096 elements, but they differ at position 26
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2021-02-10T20:14:16Z dim: mfiano: you're doing a single aref call on the array-of-arrays, so you get an array as a result, right?
2021-02-10T20:14:18Z _death: don't you want (* 2 i) and (* 2 (1+ i)) ?
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2021-02-10T20:14:57Z recalloc: Unless I'm running the program run, it says it mismatches at position 48.
2021-02-10T20:15:01Z recalloc: the program wrong*
2021-02-10T20:15:59Z _death: loop for i from 0 below 2048 by 2 means it's 0, 2, 4, ... 2046, and j would be 1+
2021-02-10T20:16:40Z mfiano: Hmm, I think _death is right.
2021-02-10T20:16:41Z _death: and I should've said (1+ (* 2 i))
2021-02-10T20:16:46Z mfiano: Let me check
2021-02-10T20:18:06Z mfiano: I see, yes. So what would be a good way to not do :by 2, so that I don't have 2 instances of #'* for both i and j?
2021-02-10T20:18:33Z _death: you can loop for i from 0 below 4096 by 2
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2021-02-10T20:19:24Z mfiano: Yes, ok that makes sense
2021-02-10T20:19:29Z mfiano: Thank you
2021-02-10T20:20:19Z mfiano: This is identical to the flattened original https://gist.github.com/mfiano/935c84dc279142259aeaf30449167edf
2021-02-10T20:21:18Z _death: but then why not just replace?
2021-02-10T20:21:39Z mfiano: I did that for another module of this project, but couldn't figure it out for this one
2021-02-10T20:21:50Z mfiano: Maybe I can now...will retry
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2021-02-10T20:22:39Z _death: well, 4096 is not a divisor of 48, so may not be so pretty
2021-02-10T20:22:51Z contrapunctus: I'm making a CGI script. Compiling an executable and copying it to the server isn't much fun and I was advised to set up a remote Lisp setup, which I have. How do I load my system there, though? 🤔 Is there a better way than shuffling files between the local and the remote machine?
2021-02-10T20:23:13Z mfiano: Ah, yeah
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2021-02-10T20:24:37Z _death: I meant 48 not a divisor of 4096.. guess it's not the best time to talk technical matters ;)
2021-02-10T20:25:07Z mfiano: Yes I understood what you meant. Do you think I should make it better with replace somehow, and do you have any pointers?
2021-02-10T20:25:23Z _death: mfiano: I think what you have is fine
2021-02-10T20:25:29Z mfiano: I admit, I've been at this way too long today, and I should be ready for bed soon :)
2021-02-10T20:25:43Z mfiano: Ok, thanks for the suggestions!
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2021-02-10T20:30:19Z mfiano: _death: I may need to pick your brain for the next part if you don't mind
2021-02-10T20:30:59Z _death: sure, if I'm still here
2021-02-10T20:31:04Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/e8c5a69d5b7d358e5e2841c437d0dea6
2021-02-10T20:31:18Z mfiano: This is the old version that utilizes the unflattened array
2021-02-10T20:31:32Z mfiano: I need to figure out how to do that with the new version
2021-02-10T20:33:25Z mfiano: ALl this nonsense because it is too slow so I want perm-grad to be a specialized array :)
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2021-02-10T20:42:16Z _death: well, I guess you keep source the same and (truncate x 2) when accessing it.. the rest becomes 4096 and (* 2 x) and (1+ (* 2 x)) .. the returned arrays will different so it's a breaking change
2021-02-10T20:42:39Z _death: then you can probably simplify it further
2021-02-10T20:43:09Z mfiano: hmmm
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2021-02-10T20:43:38Z _death: there's a typo in the comment, it should say 0 and 2^32
2021-02-10T20:43:50Z mfiano: it's actually not
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2021-02-10T20:44:31Z mfiano: the nil means non-inclusive, so it's between 0 and 2^32-2, inclusive (i think)
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2021-02-10T20:45:24Z _death: well, it's likely not 1-2*32 ;)
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2021-02-10T20:45:50Z mfiano: oh imade that edit like 10 minutes ago if you refresh
2021-02-10T20:46:03Z _death: also, you may use ash instead of expt/truncate
2021-02-10T20:46:41Z mfiano: where am i using expt?
2021-02-10T20:46:50Z _death: (1- (expt 2 32))
2021-02-10T20:46:52Z mfiano: besides the upper bound of the rng
2021-02-10T20:47:01Z _death: :)
2021-02-10T20:47:10Z mfiano: oh right
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2021-02-10T20:48:50Z mfiano: i'd still have to #'1- it.
2021-02-10T20:50:28Z _death: yeah.. I don't mind expt, ash, u32-max, or #xFFFFFFFF ;)
2021-02-10T20:50:36Z mfiano: (= (1- (expt 2 32)) (1- (ash 2 31))) ; T
2021-02-10T20:50:53Z _death: (ash 1 32)
2021-02-10T20:51:04Z mfiano: that would be double what i want :)
2021-02-10T20:51:20Z _death: well, (= (ash 1 32) (ash 2 31))
2021-02-10T20:52:00Z mfiano: still off by 1 error from 1- with expt though
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2021-02-10T20:54:58Z mfiano: _death: trying to make sense about what you said above
2021-02-10T20:55:23Z mfiano: you lost me after this https://gist.github.com/mfiano/992b39e73fd4f59eed098198f07a4682
2021-02-10T20:55:34Z mfiano: (unoptimized so far)
2021-02-10T20:56:05Z _death: no, it's not that simple
2021-02-10T20:56:29Z mfiano: yeah it's unfinished because i am not quite understanding what you said
2021-02-10T20:56:38Z _death: lemme actually evaluate your forms ;)
2021-02-10T20:57:08Z mfiano: if you want mt to publish this, you'll have to give me a moment
2021-02-10T20:57:15Z mfiano: it's not even in a repo yet
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2021-02-10T20:57:58Z _death: first, I'm changing your rng stuff to use random (and add &optional (*random-state* (make-random-state)) to the defun)
2021-02-10T20:58:03Z mfiano: do you mind if I PM you?
2021-02-10T20:58:04Z _death: that way I can reproduce
2021-02-10T20:58:25Z _death: go ahead
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2021-02-10T21:01:37Z _death: what is it that you want to return from a new permute1?
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2021-02-10T22:29:36Z nij: Is there any package that returns system state (cpu, bat, network, thermal info.. etc)?
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2021-02-10T22:42:07Z Josh_2: Not sure but on linux you can normally just read that info from the correct file
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2021-02-10T23:00:32Z fitzsim: I'm trying to use /usr/bin/cl on Debian
2021-02-10T23:01:22Z fitzsim: if I run a minimal script as a normal user, I get:
2021-02-10T23:01:24Z fitzsim: line 2280, column 7 of #P"/usr/bin/cl":
2021-02-10T23:01:35Z fitzsim: [...]  Error opening #P"/usr/share/common-lisp/source/cl-asdf/build/asdf-tmpGHU3ALSV.fasl"
2021-02-10T23:02:04Z fitzsim: this is using SBCL as the underlying Lisp
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2021-02-10T23:04:00Z fitzsim: shouldn't the cl-asdf build default to putting output somewhere user-controlled, like /run/user/${UID} ?
2021-02-10T23:04:33Z fitzsim: if I run the same script as root, it's fine, presumably because root can write under /usr/share
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2021-02-10T23:07:32Z fitzsim: ah, I just figured it out: ~/.config/common-lisp/asdf-output-translations.conf.d/99-disable-cache.conf
2021-02-10T23:07:47Z fitzsim: that had :disable-cache
2021-02-10T23:08:14Z fitzsim: if I comment that out, the script works as the unprivileged user
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2021-02-10T23:46:16Z mfiano: anybody use the additional keywords in uiop:define-package before? i am having a hard time trying to figure out the right combination to get what i want
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2021-02-10T23:51:35Z mfiano: Ah I needed (:mix #:a #:b #:cl) (:reexport #:a #:b). I wanted to bring  in A and B which shadow some CL symbols, but not RE-EXPORT all CL symbols, so :MIX-REEXPORT was out of the question. This seems to do the trick, albeit a little hacky
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2021-02-11T01:05:43Z White_Flame: is there any reason that opening with :direction :output :if-exists :append should fail with a file-does-not-exist error?
2021-02-11T01:05:57Z White_Flame: the default for if-does-not-exists should be :create on :output
2021-02-11T01:06:05Z White_Flame: it works if the if-exists is not specified
2021-02-11T01:06:57Z White_Flame: s/not-exists/not-exist/
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2021-02-11T01:15:42Z Nilby: White_Flame: The logic is a bit convoluted, but I guess that if you specify you want append, it creating it isn't considered the same a appending. It's semi-arbitrary the way lisp file operations correspond to unix.
2021-02-11T01:16:23Z Nilby: I think thankfully most implementations have chosen a consistent way.
2021-02-11T01:16:25Z pillton: White_Flame: "The default is :error if direction is :input or if-exists is :overwrite or :append;"
2021-02-11T01:17:03Z White_Flame: pillton: ah, so it is.  missed that
2021-02-11T01:18:46Z White_Flame: thanks
2021-02-11T01:19:59Z pillton: np
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2021-02-11T02:07:51Z charles`: Hi everyone
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2021-02-11T02:22:49Z charles`: Are there compiler hooks other than *macroexpand-hook*?
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2021-02-11T02:23:15Z Bike: there are various ways to get the compiler to run things. what do you have in mind?
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2021-02-11T02:25:29Z charles`: I'm not completely sure, I'm just exploring. Maybe something like *macroexpand-hook* but for every form
2021-02-11T02:26:07Z Bike: that doesn't exist, no.
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2021-02-11T02:29:26Z charles`: Is it reasonable to assume that IF is implemented using COND?
2021-02-11T02:29:30Z Bike: no.
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2021-02-11T02:29:37Z Bike: usually it's the other way around, even.
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2021-02-11T02:32:46Z charles`: oh, I see. Is there any conditional that doesn't come down to IF?
2021-02-11T02:33:06Z Bike: depends on the implementation
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2021-02-11T02:37:12Z charles`: Do you have an example? I can't think of what the reasoning be would be
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2021-02-11T02:44:41Z Bike: sometimes CASE might be so the implementation can do a jump table or whatever other optimized multiway branch
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2021-02-11T02:49:24Z charles`: genius
2021-02-11T02:54:43Z Bike: of course whether things are defined in terms of IF shouldn't really matter to the programmer very much if ever
2021-02-11T02:55:52Z charles`: in sbcl at least case->cond->if. Matters not to the programmer, but it could matter to the compiler hacker
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2021-02-11T04:03:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-11T04:10:00Z charles`: Hi beach
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2021-02-11T04:15:25Z charles`: What are you up to?
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2021-02-11T04:17:15Z beach: Me?  Working on SICL and the paper to submit to ELS.
2021-02-11T04:17:19Z beach: What about you?
2021-02-11T04:19:40Z charles`: I'm exploring derived types in hopes of enjoying compile type invariant checking even beyond rust or kotlin. What is ELS?
2021-02-11T04:19:57Z beach: European Lisp Symposium.
2021-02-11T04:20:37Z beach: The only Lisp conference in the world that is not dead.
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2021-02-11T04:22:29Z charles`: I'll have to join in this year
2021-02-11T04:22:51Z beach: Good idea.
2021-02-11T04:23:14Z beach: Next year, let's hope we can meet for real again.
2021-02-11T04:23:50Z charles`: except I live on the other side of the pond
2021-02-11T04:24:37Z beach: You are still welcome to attend.  We have regular participants from the US, Japan, etc.
2021-02-11T04:25:36Z charles`: That would be quite the adventure
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2021-02-11T04:27:53Z charles`: types for functions can be defined with (declaim (ftype, but it isn't required by conforming implementations right?
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2021-02-11T04:28:54Z beach: A conforming implementation must accept such a proclamation.
2021-02-11T04:30:23Z zxq2: what's the most widely used dialect of lisp in the industry?
2021-02-11T04:30:25Z charles`: but it isn't required to have them for each function in common-lisp package
2021-02-11T04:30:37Z charles`: wait, lisp is used in industry?
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2021-02-11T04:31:05Z beach: zxq2: There is no consensus about the definition of "Lisp", so that's hard to answer.
2021-02-11T04:31:29Z beach: zxq2: If you consider Clojure to be a Lisp dialect, then that's probably the one that is most widely used.
2021-02-11T04:31:31Z zxq2: hmm.. okay
2021-02-11T04:31:41Z beach: zxq2: But it's also off topic.  This channel is about Common Lisp.
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2021-02-11T04:32:26Z zxq2: what do you use common lisp for?
2021-02-11T04:33:06Z beach: Me?  Implementing Common Lisp.
2021-02-11T04:33:14Z charles`: mainly web development
2021-02-11T04:33:18Z charles`: and fun
2021-02-11T04:34:19Z zxq2: do you think in order to become an effective lisp programmer, you need more of a grasp of theoretical CS, than say the other, imperative languages?
2021-02-11T04:34:43Z beach: No.
2021-02-11T04:34:49Z beach: zxq2: Common Lisp is an imperative language as well.
2021-02-11T04:35:13Z beach: Multi-paradigm to be precise.
2021-02-11T04:35:13Z zxq2: is it not primarily functional?
2021-02-11T04:35:17Z beach: No.
2021-02-11T04:36:01Z beach: In fact, the evaluation model of Common Lisp is simpler than that of C, and WAY simpler than that of C++.
2021-02-11T04:36:17Z zxq2: yeah C++ is a mess
2021-02-11T04:37:22Z charles`: I personally try to write my common lisp in functional style
2021-02-11T04:38:15Z beach: Common Lisp uses what I call "uniform reference semantics", which is the only sane way of programming.  It means that the objects you manipulate behave as if they are actually references to a chunk of memory.  C is much more complicated in that you sometime use pointers, sometimes copy the objects, etc.
2021-02-11T04:39:31Z beach: A programming language without automatic memory management can't really use that sane semantic model, so such a language is necessarily more complicated.
2021-02-11T04:39:53Z zxq2: to modify my above, it seems like someone with knowledge of lisp has more insight into PL theory. do you agree?
2021-02-11T04:40:00Z zxq2: *my above question
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2021-02-11T04:41:14Z beach: People who program in Common Lisp seem to be more knowledgeable than people who don't program in Common Lisp.  But that doesn't mean that it is a requirement in order to program in Common Lisp.
2021-02-11T04:41:43Z beach: I think it has to do with the kind of people who are likely to pick up a language that is not mainstream.
2021-02-11T04:43:31Z beach: It takes some courage to invest time in a language that is not as popular as the mainstream languages.  Programmers of mainstream languages in their surroundings may even ridicule them for doing so.
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2021-02-11T04:44:44Z zxq2: i'm trying to understand the practical benefits and motivations for learning lisp or its dervitaves. it seems like with knowledge of these languages comes a deeper insight into programming langs in general.
2021-02-11T04:45:00Z beach: That might very well be true.
2021-02-11T04:45:35Z beach: But Common Lisp is also a great programming tool, so you don't have to look much further than that.
2021-02-11T04:46:16Z beach: Common Lisp has several excellent implementations, many of which generate code that is comparable in speed to that of C.
2021-02-11T04:46:50Z beach now fully expects "But isn't Common Lisp an interpreted programming language?"  And no, there is no such thing.  
2021-02-11T04:47:30Z zxq2: have you studied lambda calculus?
2021-02-11T04:47:45Z beach: Me?  Yes.
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2021-02-11T04:48:52Z zxq2: amazing that all of computation can come from such a simple formalism
2021-02-11T04:50:08Z beach: Apparently, Conway's game of life is Turing complete.
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2021-02-11T04:51:03Z zxq2: wasn't McCarthy influenced by the l. calc when developing lisp?
2021-02-11T04:51:15Z charles`: How would I declaim an ftype with &rest &option or &key
2021-02-11T04:51:21Z beach: zxq2: Sounds right.
2021-02-11T04:51:36Z zxq2: thanks for answering my questions!
2021-02-11T04:51:39Z beach: clhs ftype
2021-02-11T04:51:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ftype.htm
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2021-02-11T04:53:19Z beach: Oh, it's under the FUNCTION system class.
2021-02-11T04:53:34Z zxq2: and there is a difference betwen interpreted and compiled langs, no? your belief is that the former do compilation at run-time?
2021-02-11T04:54:10Z beach: There is no such thing as an interpreted or compiled programming language.
2021-02-11T04:54:16Z beach: It is a quality of the implementation.
2021-02-11T04:54:33Z beach: Any language can be implemented with either technique, more or less well, of course.
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2021-02-11T04:55:25Z beach: Most modern Common Lisp implementations compile on the fly.  Non JIT, but the REPL compiles the form and then executes it.
2021-02-11T04:58:06Z beach: zxq2: The "danger" of using "interpreted programming language" is that people then assume that every implementation of that language is slow.  And they would be right if it were the case that the language had to be implemented using an interpreter.  But no language requires that.
2021-02-11T04:59:09Z beach: zxq2: And people without sufficient knowledge of programming-language implementation techniques might assume that an interactive language like Common Lisp is necessarily interpreted, so they incorrectly assume that such a language is slow.
2021-02-11T05:00:11Z beach: charles`: Did you check the page on the FUNCTION system class?  The answer is there.
2021-02-11T05:01:29Z charles`: Yes thank you beach, this is certainly the page I was looking for.
2021-02-11T05:01:55Z charles`: seem correct? (declaim (ftype (function (number) &rest number) +))
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2021-02-11T05:02:22Z charles`: nvm I think I reversed them (declaim (ftype (function (&rest number) number) +))
2021-02-11T05:03:07Z moon-child: beach: 'compiled vs interpreted is a false dichotomy' is a misnomer.  https://fexpr.blogspot.com/2016/08/interpreted-programming-languages.html
2021-02-11T05:07:14Z beach: moon-child: Hence my "more or less well, of course".
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2021-02-11T05:12:27Z moon-child: beach: insofar as a compiler is just a mapping between two sets of formal semantics, sure.  But that doesn't mean that you performed a meaningful transformation
2021-02-11T05:13:21Z contrapunctus: So I had SLIME autodoc working fine when I was working locally, but for some reason I don't see it anymore when I'm working with a remote Lisp...any ideas? 🤔
2021-02-11T05:17:00Z contrapunctus: I followed the SLIME manual to set it up - https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Connecting-to-a-remote-lisp.html
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2021-02-11T05:26:18Z recalloc: Is there any promise that the maximum length of an array can be expressed as a fixnum?
2021-02-11T05:26:24Z charles`: Is it safe to assume that the declared type of a function in common lisp package will be the same across implementations?
2021-02-11T05:27:59Z beach: moon-child: I see what you mean.
2021-02-11T05:28:38Z beach: recalloc: Yes.
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2021-02-11T05:32:06Z charles`: charles`: that would be a no
2021-02-11T05:32:55Z Bike: clhs array-total-size-limit
2021-02-11T05:32:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_tot.htm
2021-02-11T05:32:57Z beach: charles`: Functions are not required to have a proclaimed type, so no.
2021-02-11T05:32:57Z Bike: recalloc:
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2021-02-11T05:37:21Z charles`: I suppose really what I mean was: for every function (in cl package) could there exist a type declaration that would work across implementation
2021-02-11T05:38:29Z recalloc: Awesome, thanks!
2021-02-11T05:38:57Z beach: charles`: That's not necessarily true I think.  Implementations are sometimes allowed to add stuff like keyword arguments.
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2021-02-11T05:40:22Z charles`: &allow-other-keys?
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2021-02-11T05:41:35Z beach: That might work.  I am not so good with type declarations.
2021-02-11T05:42:24Z charles`: part of my goal is to allow people to get the benefits of type declarations without having to write them
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2021-02-11T05:43:10Z charles`: Thanks for the  heads up about allowing other keys. Now to comb through the spec and write type declarations for every function...
2021-02-11T05:43:15Z beach: Sure, that would be a good library.
2021-02-11T05:43:59Z charles`: a big hurdle in the future will be function hoisting in compile file
2021-02-11T05:45:12Z beach: I don't understand what that means.
2021-02-11T05:47:20Z charles`: if you do COMPILE-FILE the order of the functions doesn't matter. It won't warn you about undefined functions as long as they are defined in that file.
2021-02-11T05:49:06Z beach: So what's the hurdle?
2021-02-11T05:51:53Z charles`: If I'm working on the level of DEFUN those other functions aren't defined yet, thus how can I possibly know their types. I could find their definitions in the file being compiled, but that is as far as I want to think about it right now
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2021-02-11T05:58:02Z recalloc: Hmm, that's weird. Quicklisp can't find my local package, and if I eval the .asd manually, SBCL cries that it can't find the compiled .fasl.
2021-02-11T05:58:32Z beach: Did you try (ql:register-local-projects)?
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2021-02-11T05:58:49Z charles`: You're package is in quicklisp/local-projects/ right?
2021-02-11T05:58:52Z recalloc: Huh, that works. Thanks
2021-02-11T05:58:58Z recalloc: Yeah it's in local-projects.
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2021-02-11T06:00:30Z charles`: strangely enough, I have never needed to use register-local-projects
2021-02-11T06:00:56Z beach: Apparently it is not needed unless you have symbolic links.
2021-02-11T06:01:03Z beach: ... which is what I have.
2021-02-11T06:02:30Z recalloc: I never needed to use it, either.. until now. I don't have symlinks in my sources.
2021-02-11T06:05:27Z recalloc: I remember there being a function which allowed me to copy one vector *into* another vector. Completely lost the name of it, though
2021-02-11T06:06:11Z charles`: I use symlinks too
2021-02-11T06:06:46Z beach: clhs map-into
2021-02-11T06:06:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_map_in.htm
2021-02-11T06:08:04Z recalloc: map-into, thanks
2021-02-11T06:08:54Z recalloc: I thought there were a less roundabout way than (map-into dest #'identity src), but I guess that's it
2021-02-11T06:09:18Z beach: clhs replace
2021-02-11T06:09:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_replac.htm
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2021-02-11T06:13:54Z recalloc: Replace is exactly what I needed, thanks!
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2021-02-11T06:19:52Z beach: Pleasure.
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2021-02-11T06:38:37Z recalloc: Hm. I'm concluding it's relatively hard to port from branchless C to CL and expect a similar class of performance.
2021-02-11T06:41:31Z recalloc: I'll concede to trivial-utf-8 for now and rename my package to damn-slow-utf-8
2021-02-11T06:41:35Z recalloc: :)
2021-02-11T06:42:53Z recalloc: https://0x0.st/-H0C.png
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2021-02-11T07:41:02Z lukego: Hey is there an easy way to get Emacs/SLIME to keyword-fontify serapaem defining macros like `defconst' ?
2021-02-11T07:42:47Z lukego: (Or rather, is there a canonical way that other people do it, or should I just hack Emacs font-lock-keywords?)
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2021-02-11T08:10:08Z theothornhill: You could extend cl-font-lock-built-in-mode?
2021-02-11T08:23:23Z splittist: I would like to use a Docker container to build an executable from a lisp project. There are many fine lisp images, but what's the best way to give the container access to the local projects (i.e. the components not in quicklisp) that are needed to create that executable?
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2021-02-11T08:29:01Z lukego: splittist: Maybe docker's `-v` to bind-mount ~/quicklisp/local-projects from your master repos on the host? https://docs.docker.com/storage/bind-mounts/
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2021-02-11T08:30:04Z splittist: Thtat
2021-02-11T08:30:37Z splittist: (new keyboard). lukego: that seemed the obvious way, so I assumed it was wrong (:
2021-02-11T08:31:21Z lukego: new keyboard! I remember seeing your old one, it looked like the best one available on the market ;-)
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2021-02-11T08:32:36Z lukego: Maybe `-v` isn't ideal really since that's more of a runtime rather than build-time thing. If you want `docker build` to do the whole job then maybe that doesn't work. I guess you could have your Dockerfile COPY stuff into the same location instead?
2021-02-11T08:33:13Z lukego: disclaimer: I've used Docker for various things but usually just cutting through the shortest path without necessarily knowing what is correct..
2021-02-11T08:36:44Z splittist: I sort of have this feeling I should be copying the local projects and letting quicklisp pull things into the container. Particularly since I have a locally-patched version of some things to make them work on my Windows dev machine and the container will be linux, of course.
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2021-02-11T08:39:18Z lukego: That makes sense to me but take that with a grain of salt :)
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2021-02-11T12:24:30Z Xach: splittist: i would be inclined to pin the quicklisp version for that kind of use
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2021-02-11T12:39:00Z jmercouris: CLPM
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2021-02-11T12:46:51Z splittist: Xach: that seems like a good idea.
2021-02-11T12:47:12Z Xach: unless your goal is to test ongoing compatibility, that is
2021-02-11T12:48:02Z splittist: I think I'd call that 'homework mode'
2021-02-11T12:50:29Z splittist: My problem is that the executable is to use in a non-lisp project (<gasp!>), and I was hoping to use a multi-stage dockerfile to build the executable then COPY -from=lisp-building-container-thingy etc. But dockerfiles can't pick up context outside their root.
2021-02-11T12:52:41Z splittist: (I'm mangling the terminology, sorry.) So either I (a) copy the relevant local-projects into the non-lisp project; (b) develop them under this non-lisp project (but some of the lisp projects are general libraries, not limited to this use case); or (c) create my own quicklisp distribution ???
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2021-02-11T12:53:26Z Xach: you don't need a distribution if you just want to get some code. it could be a tarball that you fetch and unpack.
2021-02-11T12:55:18Z splittist: OK. (It's just annoying that the  files are sitting there in a sibling directory and I have to do something outside the dockerfile to get at them. I understand the reasons, but... I think I'm thinking about this the wrong way.)
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2021-02-11T13:10:40Z Xach: every time you fetch quicklisp stuff in a CI pipeline it costs me a picodollar
2021-02-11T13:11:35Z jackdaniel: (loop (vroom :clean t))
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2021-02-11T13:18:21Z flip214: Xach: during the next real-world ELS I can offer you a nanoeuro
2021-02-11T13:19:47Z jackdaniel: or a nanocrown in some countries, and the crown is trendy lately
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2021-02-11T13:47:57Z Xach: μbles?
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2021-02-11T13:54:41Z shka_: Xach: good one
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2021-02-11T15:05:02Z edgar-rft: with a nonocrown you're nanoking! welcome to your nanokingdom
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2021-02-11T15:22:41Z dbotton: Working now on "thick" bindings with clog now - Working api for desktop environment in and now adding dialogs etc :)
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2021-02-11T15:25:36Z mfiano: Congratulations on all the positive feedback on CLOG and your hard work learning CL
2021-02-11T15:42:55Z splittist: So my solution is to create the lisp-builder with executable image separately. Only my dump-exe.lisp script, which runs fine from outside the container, and fine from inside the container, does not run from a RUN command in the Dockerfile.
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2021-02-11T15:59:18Z dbotton: mfiano thanks!
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2021-02-11T16:00:39Z ldbeth: good midnight
2021-02-11T16:00:50Z ldbeth lol
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2021-02-11T16:15:41Z flip214: Is there an equivalent of CHECK-TYPE that evaluates the type? So that I can pass in expected array sizes?
2021-02-11T16:16:30Z jackdaniel: flip214: (assert (typep)) ?
2021-02-11T16:16:31Z flip214: Like (check-type input `(array fixnum (,size ,size)))
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2021-02-11T16:16:45Z jackdaniel: you can't do it at runtime, that's the point of check-type
2021-02-11T16:17:06Z jmercouris: you can do type-of
2021-02-11T16:17:23Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: and what of it?
2021-02-11T16:17:27Z jmercouris: you could do it
2021-02-11T16:17:36Z flip214: jackdaniel: well, I want to tell the compiler that the used indizes _must_ be in the array, so no bounds checks are necessary in a loop
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2021-02-11T16:17:40Z jmercouris: type-of object => typespec
2021-02-11T16:17:46Z jmercouris: compare if it matches your expectations... at run time
2021-02-11T16:18:04Z jackdaniel: flip214: ah
2021-02-11T16:18:23Z jmercouris: also you are a tomato
2021-02-11T16:18:29Z jmercouris: sorry, wrong channel
2021-02-11T16:20:21Z jackdaniel: flip214: all I can think of is typecase with known sizes put in there and a generic otherwise clause
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2021-02-11T16:22:07Z scymtym: flip214: do you want the code to still be safe? if not, (locally (declare (optimize (sb-c::insert-array-bounds-checks 0))) …) would be one (non-portable) option
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2021-02-11T16:23:04Z jackdaniel: (declare (safety -1))
2021-02-11T16:24:00Z jmercouris: no idea what is going on here: http://dpaste.com/DUJWF7SF9
2021-02-11T16:24:09Z jmercouris: I don't understand this error message
2021-02-11T16:24:12Z flip214: scymtym: I'd like to still be safe... OTOH, if I check the input types beforehand, the arithmetic can't go wrong - so SAFETY 0 might be acceptable
2021-02-11T16:24:43Z jmercouris: (INTERN (SYMBOL-NAME INTERFACE) (PACKAGE-NAME (SYMBOL-PACKAGE INTERFACE))) is not a string designator.
2021-02-11T16:24:47Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: the first argument to define-user-class is not evaluated
2021-02-11T16:24:50Z jmercouris: do I have to evaluate it or something
2021-02-11T16:24:55Z jmercouris: ah damnit I was just about to say something like that
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2021-02-11T16:25:03Z jmercouris: OK, so how should I rewrite this?
2021-02-11T16:25:08Z flip214: well, I've got an (ASSERT (TYPEP input `(array fixnum (,size ,size)))) and  (DOTIMES (i (1- size)) (DOTIMES (j (1- size)) ...))
2021-02-11T16:25:27Z flip214: and still get HAIRY-DATA-VECTOR-REF
2021-02-11T16:25:34Z jackdaniel: (eval `(define-user-class ,(intern …))
2021-02-11T16:25:49Z jmercouris: or otherwise make a macro myself?
2021-02-11T16:26:06Z jmercouris: I guess I can eval it for now
2021-02-11T16:26:47Z jmercouris: thanks jackdaniel
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2021-02-11T16:27:23Z scymtym: flip214: or compile specialized versions dynamically if jackdaniel's suggestion is impractical: (lambda (a) (let ((table (load-time-value (make-hash-table :test #'equal))) (dims (array-dimensions a))) (funcall (alexandria:ensure-gethash dims table (compile nil `(lambda (a) (declare (type (array t ,dims) a)) a))) a))) (not thread-safe)
2021-02-11T16:27:30Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-02-11T16:28:17Z flip214: scymtym: uh, ouch
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2021-02-11T16:28:59Z scymtym: i for one am glad that we /can/ do something like that if needed
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2021-02-11T16:32:02Z contrapunctus: Anyone know why SLIME autodoc might work correctly for a local image, but stop working over SSH?
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2021-02-11T16:32:38Z prxq: contrapunctus: paths
2021-02-11T16:32:40Z jackdaniel: maybe it tries to find locally the file?
2021-02-11T16:33:30Z prxq: contrapunctus: what exactly do you mean 'over SSH'? You log in via SSH remotely? Or are u using swank?
2021-02-11T16:33:52Z flip214: scymtym: well, I'd like to tell the compiler that the array is a specific size; and DOTIMES won't go over the limit (that should be known already)
2021-02-11T16:34:46Z scymtym: flip214: i can comment on that later
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2021-02-11T16:39:48Z contrapunctus: prxq, jackdaniel: oh, I was following the steps  here - https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Connecting-to-a-remote-lisp.html but now that I think about it, I can't remember if I did the path translation thing. I'll take a look at that.
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2021-02-11T16:44:46Z flip214: even (DOTIMES (i (array-dimension input 0)) ...) doesn't help.... what am I doing wrong?
2021-02-11T16:45:08Z jackdaniel: you are assuming the sufficiently smart compiler
2021-02-11T16:45:11Z jackdaniel: compilers are dumb :)
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2021-02-11T16:49:44Z flip214: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/146f51f1/
2021-02-11T16:50:03Z flip214: jackdaniel: I got some similar stuff working with sbcl already
2021-02-11T16:50:13Z flip214: just right now I'm too dumb, I believe
2021-02-11T16:50:42Z Bike: yeah i'm not sure if sbcl can actually track that kind of dependent type
2021-02-11T16:51:27Z Bike: also, you have it as an array rather than a simple-array
2021-02-11T16:51:34Z Bike: that might screw up doing any optimization whatsoever
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2021-02-11T16:53:22Z Nilby: yes, my experience is that you ususally need a simple-array to get the fast path
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2021-02-11T16:56:53Z Nilby: although I guess, like the case in the paste, sometimes it's obvious it's not displaces, fill-pointered, or adjusted
2021-02-11T16:57:20Z Bike: i don't see anything in the paste that would force M to be a simple array
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2021-02-11T17:12:28Z contrapunctus: prxq, jackdaniel: thanks, it was indeed missing path translation config! ^^
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2021-02-11T17:52:10Z scymtym: flip214: as bike said, to generate optimized array accesses, SBCL must infer the simpleness of the array, the array element type (even if t) and the array dimensions. i'm certain that it can't do that based on a dynamically constructed TYPEP assertion. however, if you write something like (dotimes (i (array-dimension a 0)) …), SBCL can infer a constraint between I and A so that accesses in the body will not require a bounds
2021-02-11T17:52:10Z scymtym: check
2021-02-11T17:54:49Z scymtym: here is a small example that shows the constraint: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/sbcl-infer-array-in-bounds.png
2021-02-11T17:55:55Z scymtym: not sure how this would work for ranks other than 1, though
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2021-02-11T18:42:06Z flip214: scymtym: Bike: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/0601d838/ has simple-array in the assert, and uses array-dimension - still, there's a HAIR in the soup...
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2021-02-11T18:43:44Z flip214: ah, with (DECLARE (TYPE (SIMPLE-ARRAY...  ))) it looks better
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2021-02-11T18:44:09Z scymtym: flip214: 1) what is MATRIX? 2) as i said, i don't think the (assert (typep …)) with a dynamically constructed type specifier allows inferring anything
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2021-02-11T18:46:25Z scymtym: also, speed 3 with safety 0 will elide the bounds irregardless of type inference and constraints
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2021-02-11T18:47:44Z scymtym: (compile nil (lambda () …)) (as opposed to (compile nil '(lambda () …))) does not usually compile
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2021-02-11T19:18:00Z nij: Any more interesting examples that make use of monads, as in https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-monad-macros/monad-macros.htm ?
2021-02-11T19:19:11Z _death: https://8c6794b6.github.io/posts/Delimited-continuations-with-monadic-functions-in-Common-Lisp.html
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2021-02-11T19:22:16Z nij: Oh great! I missed this while searching :-)
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2021-02-11T20:27:41Z nij: Can I get a graph of a tree that indicates all types?
2021-02-11T20:27:50Z nij: (and there sub/sup relations)
2021-02-11T20:27:54Z nij: s/there/their/
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2021-02-11T20:47:07Z flip214: hmmm... I can make the HAIRY vanish via a (DECLARE (TYPE `(SIMPLE-ARRAY SYMBOL (* *)) variable)).
2021-02-11T20:47:51Z flip214: But if I use the DEFTYPE instead of `(SIMPLE-ARRAY SYMBOL (* *)) (which says the same) they come back
2021-02-11T20:48:07Z flip214: ah, no `
2021-02-11T20:48:15Z flip214: grrr, too late for clear thinking
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2021-02-11T21:06:49Z jmercouris: is there any way to have a sort of 'lazy' variable evaluation?
2021-02-11T21:06:58Z jmercouris: for example I have some (defparameter q (some-funcall))
2021-02-11T21:07:09Z jmercouris: and then only do (some-funcall) whenever I try to access q
2021-02-11T21:07:41Z jmercouris: I could make a function (q), but I am wondering if it is possible with a variable
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2021-02-11T21:07:55Z jmercouris: since everything is an object, is there an accessor here or something?
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2021-02-11T21:08:54Z Nilby: jmercouris: I guess you could use a symbol macro
2021-02-11T21:09:27Z Nilby: jmercouris: But I find symbol macros usually cause more trouble than they're worth.
2021-02-11T21:09:27Z jmercouris: hm, I guess you could
2021-02-11T21:09:37Z jmercouris: seems like a bad idea
2021-02-11T21:10:23Z jmercouris: the problem I have is with this: Globally establishes an expansion function for the symbol macro named by symbol
2021-02-11T21:10:29Z jmercouris: globally seems like a recipe for disaster
2021-02-11T21:10:58Z jmercouris: OK, now for my much simpler question
2021-02-11T21:11:04Z Nilby: right, but symbols usually have a package
2021-02-11T21:11:06Z jmercouris: I wrote this function, and I think it could be a lot better
2021-02-11T21:11:21Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/BAJHXNRGE
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2021-02-11T21:11:35Z jmercouris: Nilby: still within that package... I don't know, it seems like I could accidentally cause all sorts of havoc
2021-02-11T21:12:50Z prxq: jmercouris: why do you do it this way? Why not subclass?
2021-02-11T21:12:53Z jmercouris: I guess I could get rid of the find-if and use the one loop until I have a result I like
2021-02-11T21:13:09Z jmercouris: prxq: it's a long story, do not worry about that part
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2021-02-11T21:13:14Z jmercouris: there is a very good reason for it
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2021-02-11T21:13:33Z jmercouris: a user-class is a macro generated subclass, you can still use normal subclasses
2021-02-11T21:13:49Z prxq: okay, I can relate to that long-story situation :-)
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2021-02-11T21:19:43Z Nilby: jmercouris: Perhaps you could just do the intern in a :key in the find-if and just do one make-instance wrapping the find-if ? That is if you don't mean to make all the interfaces instances as a side-effect.
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2021-02-11T21:21:24Z jmercouris: hm, that's true
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2021-02-11T21:21:28Z jmercouris: that is possible
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2021-02-11T21:22:06Z jmercouris: I think you mean the object creation in the key
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2021-02-11T21:24:51Z pve: Hey, I'm trying to get an intuition for how replacing a call to a generic function with a call to a closure in a loop will affect performance. Will this test land me in the right ballpark?
2021-02-11T21:24:55Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2292
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2021-02-11T21:51:47Z Bike: seems ok to me.
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2021-02-11T22:02:33Z pve: Bike: thank you
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2021-02-11T22:59:48Z Xach: quicklisp now comes with sbcl 3.x as a fallback, which should hopefully reduce some confusing clisp failures a little.
2021-02-11T23:00:27Z Xach: not all of them, as some systems rely on a newer asdf than i am using for a fallback. but it may help a little.
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2021-02-11T23:02:15Z _death: sbcl 3.x.. I want some of that
2021-02-11T23:02:34Z Xach: oops
2021-02-11T23:02:35Z Xach: sorry
2021-02-11T23:02:38Z Xach: asdf 3.x
2021-02-11T23:02:54Z waleee-cl: is there a list of magic numbers used in the style-warnings emitted by sbcl? I got "This is not a (MOD 4611686018427387901)"
2021-02-11T23:03:02Z _death: that's cool.. I did swap ql's asdf to get clisp working
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2021-02-11T23:04:01Z _death: waleee-cl: that's approx 2^61
2021-02-11T23:04:34Z _death: waleee-cl: most-positive-fixnum - 2
2021-02-11T23:05:07Z waleee-cl: missed to paste a: NIL on the next line
2021-02-11T23:07:07Z waleee-cl: hm. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_most_p.htm I do use an array in proximity to the warning
2021-02-11T23:07:34Z Bike: that's 2^62 - 3
2021-02-11T23:07:40Z _death: well, array indexes must be nonnegative fixnums
2021-02-11T23:07:55Z Bike: oh missed response sorry
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2021-02-11T23:08:10Z waleee-cl: welp, must be doing something stupid
2021-02-11T23:08:11Z _death: Bike: oops, indeed
2021-02-11T23:08:26Z waleee-cl: _death:  thanks for the hints
2021-02-11T23:08:32Z Bike: waleee-cl: more directly, it's array-dimension-limit in my sbcl
2021-02-11T23:08:36Z Bike: yours too, i imagine
2021-02-11T23:08:40Z Bike: clhs array-dimension-limit
2021-02-11T23:08:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_dim.htm
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2021-02-12T01:24:54Z elliot`: Hello! Does anyone know if it is possible to reload a foreign library, using CFFI, and see changes without restarting the running Lisp process? In the documentation for `cffi:load-foreign-library' it says the library is reloaded if already loaded, but this does not seem to work for me.
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2021-02-12T01:47:07Z devon: elliot`: apparently CFFI::CANARY can be configured to inhibit reload
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2021-02-12T01:49:22Z devon: Would QuickLisp break if users share ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/archives -> /usr/share/...
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2021-02-12T01:56:14Z elliot`: devon: Thanks! I'll have a look.
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2021-02-12T04:04:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-12T04:07:54Z dbotton: If anyone would like to try out the clog-gui desktop in your browser - http://office.botton.com:8080/
2021-02-12T04:08:12Z dbotton: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/22-tutorial.lisp  - that is the source
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2021-02-12T04:50:25Z charles`:  dbotton: that is very impressive and ambitious, also a little buggy.
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2021-02-12T05:31:32Z contrapunctus: Reading CL sources, I am able to appreciate (Elisp) `checkdoc`'s insistence on adding a docstring for every definition, and documenting every argument. x-P
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2021-02-12T05:34:40Z contrapunctus: What if Quicklisp made it necessary for all new CL systems to have docstrings for every definition, a la MELPA? 🤔
2021-02-12T05:36:24Z beach: It is pretty pointless to have docstrings for every definition.  Definitions internal to some system are not meant to be used by clients of that system, so the people who need to know about those definitions are the same as the ones that will read the code.
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2021-02-12T05:41:33Z contrapunctus: beach: in my case, I'm using `legit`, which is missing a command I want, so I looked at the source and found `define-git-wrapper` which is used to define all the commands. But it's entirely undocumented. I guess lack of documentation hinders not just use, but contributions too.
2021-02-12T05:42:58Z contrapunctus: (I can at best guess how to use it, by hopefully understanding the intent from the source and by reading the other calls...but a guess is a lot worse than the word of god^Athe author.)
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2021-02-12T05:53:42Z beach: contrapunctus: Comments are the "documentation" meant for the other category, i.e. the ones that are also likely to read the source code.  Documentation strings are for clients who are interested only in the protocol/interface.
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2021-02-12T06:32:04Z jasom: Implementing yaml in CL, I found a discrepancy between the BNF used in the reference implementation and the specification :/
2021-02-12T06:33:45Z beach: The reference implementation and the specification of yaml, I suppose, yes?
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2021-02-12T06:42:48Z jasom: yes.  It looks like the two grammars are equivalent, but was very confusing because they mirror each other except for a single place
2021-02-12T06:43:35Z jasom: And I implemented according to the spec and stole the unit tests from the reference implementation
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2021-02-12T06:49:36Z jasom: roughly A -> (B - c), C -> B, B -> D vs A-> B, C-> B | c, B -> (D - c)
2021-02-12T06:54:40Z beach: I feared you were talking about Common Lisp, and couldn't figure out what "reference implementation" that would be.
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2021-02-12T07:06:49Z jackdaniel: clisp of course, it has it in the name :)
2021-02-12T07:07:00Z beach: Right.  Silly me!
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2021-02-12T10:05:37Z dim: I though GNU Common Lisp had it in the name too? wait, SBCL and ABCL too... even ECL... mmm. ;-)
2021-02-12T10:07:28Z jackdaniel: my favorite implementation is clips, and it is used by experts!
2021-02-12T10:07:42Z jackdaniel: its syntax is even based on s-expressions
2021-02-12T10:07:49Z jackdaniel: kind of
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2021-02-12T10:21:55Z White_Flame: jackdaniel: its RHS language has basically gone full greenspun already
2021-02-12T10:25:28Z jackdaniel: here's what boring dreams are made of: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/588f8567-sheet-transform.mp4 :)
2021-02-12T10:30:13Z beach: Looks great!  Flickers a bit when you rotate and resize though.
2021-02-12T10:31:17Z jackdaniel: well, I'm fixing sheet transformations as an interruption from implementing double buffering after all :)
2021-02-12T10:31:32Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2021-02-12T10:43:19Z dim: hey jackdaniel, I just tried to (ql:quickload "pgloader") with ECL 20.4.24 and it failed with:
2021-02-12T10:43:31Z dim: [package cl-ppcre].......... / Condition of type: SIMPLE-ERROR /Unable to create pipe / C library explanation: Too many open files.
2021-02-12T10:43:47Z dim: (those were 4 lines, I made them one for sharing here inline)
2021-02-12T10:44:20Z jackdaniel: dim: does it also happen in 21.2.1?
2021-02-12T10:44:20Z dim: I have quit that instance of ECL and started the process again, knowing that some of the dependencies have now been compiled
2021-02-12T10:44:36Z dim: I just did brew upgrade ecl this morning, that's the most recent I have at the moment
2021-02-12T10:45:02Z dim: seems like https://formulae.brew.sh/formula/ecl disagrees, okay
2021-02-12T10:45:18Z dim: will try again soon with the newer version, I guess I need to brew update first
2021-02-12T10:45:35Z jackdaniel: OK, let me know when you try it
2021-02-12T10:46:39Z dim: I'm letting current ecl version do its thing, it looks like the second attempt might work
2021-02-12T10:47:34Z dim: if you want a stress test for your compiler system then (ql:quickload "pgloader") is a nice one, given the amount of dependencies ;-)
2021-02-12T10:48:56Z dim: yeah compiled it on second try
2021-02-12T10:49:05Z prxq: great to see that ECL is alive again
2021-02-12T10:56:23Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: post it on the Get Excited page, there's a severe lack of animated demos. PS Always found the "boring dreams" quote to be ambiguous, grand and yet with 0 revealing info, and therefore a bit maddening (all quotes on that page are to an extent, but this one takes the prize).
2021-02-12T10:57:08Z jackdaniel: I've hand-picked them and this one is my favourite :)
2021-02-12T10:57:43Z jackdaniel: I will refresh get excited page
2021-02-12T10:57:49Z jackdaniel: I have plenty of short  videos and screenshots
2021-02-12T10:58:05Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: that would help : )
2021-02-12T10:59:40Z jackdaniel: re animated videos: https://twitter.com/i/status/1357289617385525248
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2021-02-12T11:01:14Z VincentVega: yeah not bad for showing the interactive side of it!
2021-02-12T11:03:28Z _death: jackdaniel: except that the slot name should be "rotation" ;)
2021-02-12T11:03:43Z jackdaniel: _death: yeah, that's true
2021-02-12T11:03:48Z jackdaniel: that's what you get for showing the c ode
2021-02-12T11:03:50Z jackdaniel: code*
2021-02-12T11:04:08Z jackdaniel goes full proprietary now ;)
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2021-02-12T11:30:46Z tfb: Are there any good examples of things which define extensions (specifically: new component types) for ASDF.
2021-02-12T11:31:04Z tfb: (component classes I mean, obviously)
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2021-02-12T11:41:13Z prxq: tfb: the asd file of matlisp has some
2021-02-12T11:46:05Z tfb: prxq: is the current version of that the one on sourceforge? (and thanks)
2021-02-12T11:46:58Z prxq: tfb: i think so. np.
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2021-02-12T12:31:20Z VincentVega: Is there a way to make a construct like `(let ((a 0)) (defmacro mc () `(+ 1 2)) (mc))` work without using a macrolet? I have a defsmth that defines a bunch of things including some macros and I want it to be a part of a test so that _everything_ gets reevaluated, including those macros when the test runs, thus keeping up with the code base.
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2021-02-12T12:38:18Z heisig: VincentVega: Sounds like you just want to call EVAL on that form.  That would reevaluate local macros, too.
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2021-02-12T12:48:52Z VincentVega: heisig: Like this (let ((a 0)) (defmacro mc8 () `(+ 1 2)) (eval '(mc8)))? Hmm not exactly ideal, because I would have to wrap the test code manually, but I guess that's better than nothing huh.
2021-02-12T12:51:55Z heisig: VincentVega: My suggestion would be to eval the entire thing: (eval '(let ((a 0)) (macrolet ...))).  Assuming I correctly understood what you want.
2021-02-12T12:53:12Z VincentVega: heisig: doesn't work I'm afraid : ( This still gives an error (eval '(let ((a 0)) (defmacro mc9 () `(+ 1 2)) (mc9)))  mc10 is a macro, not a function
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2021-02-12T12:54:23Z jackdaniel: hint hint: (compiler-let ;)
2021-02-12T12:54:45Z tfb: VincentVega: yes, it will fail: macroexpanson has all finished by the time the macro is defined.
2021-02-12T12:55:18Z VincentVega: tfb: yes, and I am looking for a fix : D other than a macrolet
2021-02-12T12:55:37Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: is it a part of some library?
2021-02-12T12:55:41Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: (apropos 'compiler-let)
2021-02-12T12:55:57Z jackdaniel: it was part of cltl (but did not make it to ansi standard)
2021-02-12T12:56:07Z jackdaniel: some implementations ship it regardless
2021-02-12T12:56:32Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: thanks for the hint, I will check it out
2021-02-12T12:56:54Z jackdaniel: but I don't know how well it will work for your use case
2021-02-12T12:56:56Z tfb: VincentVega: can you explain why you need `a` to be locally bound in the macro?  Chances are there's some solution which would work
2021-02-12T12:58:33Z VincentVega: tfb: I don't need it bound to a macro though.
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2021-02-12T12:59:43Z tfb: VincentVega: in the macro, not to a macro: what's the purpose of (let (...) (defmacro ...))?  Presumably the macro is using a somewhere?
2021-02-12T13:00:35Z VincentVega: tfb: I just need to have a defmacro to take effect before the code which uses that defmacro within the same let statement (or a lambda) - the lambda is what the unit testing framework I am using has.
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2021-02-12T13:01:47Z tfb: VincentVega:  then yes, you'll need eval or some moral equivalent like compile
2021-02-12T13:02:11Z VincentVega: `a` is just placeholder, I don't know why I included it, (let () (defmacro mc12 () `(+ 1 2)) (mc12))
2021-02-12T13:02:19Z VincentVega: tfb: OK
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2021-02-12T13:04:27Z nij: I have many threads wild going on. It's a great time to inspect them. .. But how? I've in-packaged to sb-thread, and (list-all-threads).. clicking on one of the objects returns this: https://bpa.st/RLYA
2021-02-12T13:06:01Z nij: the slot "control-stack-start" means "Universal-time: 4445093-09-17T00:39:12-07:00".. which is super weird. Can't I at least see when the thread started? And can't I see its content (i.e. the functions it had/will run) without #'interrupting-thread?
2021-02-12T13:07:18Z phoe: "the slot ... means ..." you got it wrong
2021-02-12T13:07:31Z phoe: it tries to parse that integer as universal time, which doesn't really make sense
2021-02-12T13:07:52Z phoe: I don't know what units that time is in but I don't think it's universal time.
2021-02-12T13:08:20Z nij: I see. Inspecting any integer leads it to interpretting it as universal time.. (i just tried on "3")..
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2021-02-12T13:11:02Z phoe: yes, it's an inspector thing
2021-02-12T13:11:13Z phoe: it doesn't know the context in which it should interpret a given integer
2021-02-12T13:11:28Z nij: i see. i was misled. Seems that I should dig into the manual of sb-thread. I will do that.
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2021-02-12T13:21:16Z jmercouris: does someone have reccomendations for interesting UIs or rare CL libraries?
2021-02-12T13:21:22Z jmercouris: recommendations*
2021-02-12T13:21:44Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
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2021-02-12T13:22:01Z nij: for what
2021-02-12T13:22:03Z nij: fun?
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2021-02-12T13:22:36Z Nilby: garent is an interesting an rare ui still somewhat works
2021-02-12T13:22:36Z beach: jmercouris: I'm with nij.  For what purpose?
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2021-02-12T13:23:18Z beach: "Garnet" you mean?
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2021-02-12T13:23:37Z jmercouris: for learning
2021-02-12T13:23:45Z jmercouris: I'm thinking about new ideas
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2021-02-12T13:24:10Z beach: jmercouris: I can tell you that the CLIM specification is what taught me about how to use CLOS.
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2021-02-12T13:24:52Z jmercouris: really? I thought you knoew clos a priori
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2021-02-12T13:25:04Z Nilby: Yes "Garnet", Sorry. Fingers not working well.
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2021-02-12T13:25:11Z beach: jmercouris: That was 21 years ago.
2021-02-12T13:25:15Z jmercouris: reference link: https://github.com/earl-ducaine/cl-garnet
2021-02-12T13:25:23Z jmercouris: ah, that is a while indeed
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2021-02-12T13:26:05Z jmercouris: who made the CLIM specification, and is it part of the ansi spec?
2021-02-12T13:26:16Z jmercouris: and if it is part of the ansi spec, why are there such few implementations?
2021-02-12T13:26:20Z beach: It is not part of the Common Lisp standard, no.
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2021-02-12T13:26:54Z beach: It was made essentially by Scott McKay.
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2021-02-12T13:27:08Z beach: I forget where he worked at the time.  Symbolics maybe.
2021-02-12T13:27:20Z jmercouris: I see
2021-02-12T13:27:34Z jmercouris: and what happened to "Clim 2.0"?
2021-02-12T13:27:35Z jackdaniel: beach: yes, symbolics
2021-02-12T13:27:43Z beach: jmercouris: That's what we are using.
2021-02-12T13:27:52Z jmercouris: Why are you calling it McClim?
2021-02-12T13:27:58Z jmercouris: instead of "Clim 2.0"?
2021-02-12T13:28:10Z beach: jmercouris: CLIM 2.0 is a specification.
2021-02-12T13:28:11Z jackdaniel: William York is mentioned in the spec as co-author (and a few others for contributions)
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2021-02-12T13:28:25Z beach: McCLIM is an implementation of the specification that was started by Mike McDonald.
2021-02-12T13:28:33Z jmercouris: I see
2021-02-12T13:28:41Z jmercouris: so Scott McKay wrote a spec some time in the 80s
2021-02-12T13:28:51Z jmercouris: and then Mike McDonald implemented that spec on CL?
2021-02-12T13:28:57Z hhdave: What was the predecessor of CLIM called? Did Scott develop that? (if it had a name)? Was that Dynamic Windows?
2021-02-12T13:29:00Z Nilby: McKay also wrote something like LIM in Dylan, as well as Emacs in Dylan called Duece.
2021-02-12T13:29:03Z Nilby: yes
2021-02-12T13:29:15Z jackdaniel: hhdave: Dynamic Windows, yes
2021-02-12T13:29:34Z hhdave: Was DW Scott as well?
2021-02-12T13:29:38Z beach: jmercouris: I forget the dates, but Mike McDonald wanted a free implementation of the spec, and the existing implementations were commercial.
2021-02-12T13:29:41Z jmercouris: outside of CLIM, any other rare libraries to recommend?
2021-02-12T13:29:56Z jmercouris: beach: could the commercial implementations run on a free implementation?
2021-02-12T13:30:03Z nij: Oh wow I'm amazed by the graphical output: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp_Interface_Manager#/media/File:Listener.png
2021-02-12T13:30:06Z jmercouris: ASSUMING no usage of implementation specific code
2021-02-12T13:30:06Z hhdave: I think the Dylan equivalent (DUIM) never got as far as presentations though. As far as I know
2021-02-12T13:30:08Z jackdaniel: the oldest commits in the "original" codebase date back to '87
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2021-02-12T13:30:17Z nij: Can I do that with slime/sly?
2021-02-12T13:30:39Z jmercouris: not easily
2021-02-12T13:30:40Z Nilby: I used DUIM, so yeah it worked.
2021-02-12T13:30:46Z beach: jmercouris: I believe that was and is possible, yes.  The commercial implementations have bee freed I believe.
2021-02-12T13:30:56Z jmercouris: s/bee/been?
2021-02-12T13:31:04Z jackdaniel: we've ported clim-tos to "work" on sbcl and ccl
2021-02-12T13:31:07Z jackdaniel: but it has many glitches
2021-02-12T13:31:12Z beach: Yes, been.
2021-02-12T13:31:15Z jackdaniel: either way it starts and runs basic demos
2021-02-12T13:31:32Z hhdave: it does :)
2021-02-12T13:31:32Z beach: McLIM is way better than the commercial implementations ever were at this point.
2021-02-12T13:31:39Z jmercouris: I see
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2021-02-12T13:32:01Z jmercouris: even better than the Lispworks CAPI?
2021-02-12T13:32:02Z _death: nij: you can play with it yourself! (ql:quickload "clim-listener") (clim-listener:run-listener) .. though some things are a bit broken (but it may be an opportunity to fix ;)
2021-02-12T13:32:09Z beach: Scott told us that our implementation (done by moore33) is how they meant to do it, if their Common Lisp implementation had allowed it.
2021-02-12T13:32:33Z beach: Our implementation of presentation types, I meant to say.
2021-02-12T13:32:52Z jmercouris: you know how you can view downloads on Melpa by frequency, a way to view this information for Ql?
2021-02-12T13:34:21Z Nilby: jmercouris: quicklisp-stats
2021-02-12T13:34:23Z beach: jmercouris: CAPI is not an implementation of the CLIM specification.
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2021-02-12T13:35:31Z jackdaniel: hhdave: I don't know whether he worked on Dynamic Windows too
2021-02-12T13:35:51Z jmercouris: beach: yes, is it however BETTER than CLIM?
2021-02-12T13:36:07Z beach: jmercouris: I don't know.  I don't own a copy of LispWorks.
2021-02-12T13:36:08Z jackdaniel: it is more conventional
2021-02-12T13:36:25Z jmercouris: Nilby: thanks
2021-02-12T13:38:09Z _death: beach: I recently read Moore's paper on presentation types.. I think the issue was absence of CLOS/MOP
2021-02-12T13:38:21Z nij: _death: INDEED! Had it pulled down. Whatelse can I try right away?
2021-02-12T13:38:31Z beach: _death: Ah, I see.  Makes sense.
2021-02-12T13:38:33Z nij: And why couldn't emacs rendor such graphical output?
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2021-02-12T13:40:00Z _death: nij: check out the clouseau inspector.. (ql:quickload "clouseau") (clouseau:inspect (find-class 'standard-object))
2021-02-12T13:41:01Z _death: though that may be too much for it right now :d
2021-02-12T13:41:04Z beach: nij: It probably could, but CLIM has the advantage of running in the same process as the Common Lisp system, so everything is much easier then, compared to having to translate everything to a sequence of bytes.
2021-02-12T13:42:46Z nij: beach: But I also noticed that CLIM doesn't work pretty well with keyboards.. is it possible to set it up like emacs?
2021-02-12T13:43:22Z jackdaniel: I'm working on that
2021-02-12T13:43:30Z jackdaniel: a few stack frames above the current think I'm hacking on
2021-02-12T13:43:31Z beach: nij: I am not sure what you are referring to, but detailed questions like that are better asked in #clim.
2021-02-12T13:43:47Z jackdaniel: I think that he means key combos
2021-02-12T13:43:49Z beach: "current think"  I like that!
2021-02-12T13:43:50Z jackdaniel: they currently work with esa
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2021-02-12T13:44:12Z jackdaniel: oh, it was supposed to be a thing, but let's call it a happy coincidence
2021-02-12T13:44:27Z beach: Yes, again, I like it.
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2021-02-12T13:44:36Z Nilby: I love CLIM but I feel like it could use a big picture architectural redesign.
2021-02-12T13:44:52Z jackdaniel: :) time to take a lunch break, if some questions happen on #clim I'll be happy to answer afterwards
2021-02-12T13:45:13Z _death: well, clim does need some work on that too.. for example, you'd expect to be able to click on a text-editor-pane's text and have the cursor go there, but nope
2021-02-12T13:45:25Z beach: Nilby: Oh?  The architecture mainly follows the specification.  What's the problem with it?
2021-02-12T13:45:26Z jackdaniel: Nilby: you may want to be more specific
2021-02-12T13:46:27Z jackdaniel: _death: that's true
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2021-02-12T13:47:03Z beach: Nilby, _death: McCLIM is an implementation of a big and complex standard, and it is all done by volunteers, or nearly so.  Feel free to help out to make this the preferred GUI library for Common Lisp applications.
2021-02-12T13:47:58Z _death: yes, it's a very ambitious project, and lots of skilled people have done great work on it so far.. thanks!
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2021-02-12T13:49:52Z Nilby: Like separate out a platform indenpent graphics library, event loop handling, separate editing substrate, consider mapping to platform ui's, etc. Presenations, and emacs style application frameworkds are great, but maybe shold be separte too.
2021-02-12T13:50:15Z jackdaniel: Nilby: these things are separate
2021-02-12T13:50:35Z jackdaniel: I mean, you've literally listed things which are sorted in independent modules
2021-02-12T13:50:38Z _death: I also looked at BB1 code the other day, which used CLIM for GUI.. it has for example a grapher module, that may be useful in mcclim
2021-02-12T13:50:48Z _death: though I didn't try it yet
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2021-02-12T13:54:28Z _death: it's not too difficult to change the look of mcclim's motif-like widgets, but right now I think you have to patch it, or create a shadow hierarchy
2021-02-12T13:54:46Z beach: That aspect is also being worked on.
2021-02-12T13:54:50Z beach: Feel free to help out.
2021-02-12T13:55:43Z _death: the thing is, I don't tend to write GUIs :).. I'm a clim newbie basically.. just played with it a little to write some simple GUIs
2021-02-12T13:56:21Z beach: That's already good.
2021-02-12T13:56:37Z _death: I found some small bugs and contributed patches
2021-02-12T13:56:44Z beach: Great!
2021-02-12T13:56:52Z jackdaniel: ha, I have it: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/9736edb5-eduardo.webm
2021-02-12T13:56:58Z jackdaniel: _death: ^ re pointer clicking
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2021-02-12T13:57:16Z jackdaniel: (another stashed thing in the upstack)
2021-02-12T13:57:18Z _death: there are still issues, especially with a tiling window manager like stumpwm, but overall things work
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2021-02-12T13:58:03Z _death: jackdaniel: cool
2021-02-12T13:58:07Z beach: What I find, let's say "interesting", is how some people seem to prefer to go the FFI route, with lots of pain as a result, rather than contributing a bit to McCLIM.
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2021-02-12T13:59:16Z _death: beach: well, I also explored the FFI route before, as well as the ECL embedding route.. they all got pros/cons, but mcclim is a cool alternative anyway
2021-02-12T13:59:31Z beach: And getting better by the day.
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2021-02-12T14:00:08Z Nilby: beach: I think many people have a hard time understanding CLIM unless they've been exposed to a LM style UI background.
2021-02-12T14:00:38Z beach: I mean, the "interesting" part is that, with a bit of work on McCLIM, everybody using Common Lisp could benefit, whereas the FFI route just creates a sum of pain for everyone without making any collective progress.
2021-02-12T14:00:51Z _death: I actually looked at CLIM years ago.. but it did take a while to seep in
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2021-02-12T14:02:26Z jackdaniel: McCLIM new motto: overpromise, underdeliver
2021-02-12T14:02:33Z beach: _death: The other work in progress is a manual that presents CLIM "bottom-up", so that it looks familiar to people who are used to more primitive GUI libraries, and then discusses the advanced features as high-level tools on top of the basic stuff.
2021-02-12T14:02:52Z Nilby: beach: I basically agree, and don't like just using a non-Lisp FFI UI, but I dream that something like CLIM could integrate better with platform UIs.
2021-02-12T14:03:12Z _death: beach: some of the old material is already bottom-up.. like teaching you how to draw shapes and going from there
2021-02-12T14:03:41Z beach: _death: Maybe so.  I forget the current state of things.
2021-02-12T14:03:45Z jackdaniel: beach: do you refer to my plans to make the lower abstractions more useful for (potential) competing toolkits?
2021-02-12T14:04:37Z beach: jackdaniel: Not quite.
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2021-02-12T14:05:19Z beach: Nilby: I personally want something that is totally independent of existing toolkits, so that it can be used on a future Lisp OS without any C or C++-based libraries.
2021-02-12T14:05:31Z jackdaniel: OK
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2021-02-12T14:06:06Z beach: jackdaniel: I think we have discussed just a way of structuring the manual so that it starts with the event-driven stuff, and builds upwards.
2021-02-12T14:06:30Z _death: Nilby: the way I see it right now, I think aesthetically pleasing CLIM applications are possible, using something like material design or some custom drawing.. once jackdaniel handles the flickering (and then there's the aliasing, which clx-fb "fixes", but..)
2021-02-12T14:06:58Z beach: But there are lots of interesting McCLIM-related projects to pursue, so just a few people can't accomplish everything right away.
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2021-02-12T14:07:39Z Nilby: beach: I totally agree. But I wish it could also, play well with other things.
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2021-02-12T14:08:19Z beach: Nilby: I dream that more Common Lisp programmers would think more in terms of collective benefits, given that we have very scarce resources as it is.
2021-02-12T14:08:29Z Nilby: I think the work jackdaniel and other have put into it is great, and I do belive it's possible to have aesthetically pleasing things now.
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2021-02-12T14:08:45Z jackdaniel: beach: could be, I don't remember that discussion though (however such manual structure would certainly make sense). I remember talking about providing examples for using lower abstractions for windows etc using the "silica" part of clim
2021-02-12T14:08:47Z Nilby: the inspector is very aesthetically pleasing to me :)
2021-02-12T14:09:08Z beach: jackdaniel: Yes, I think that's what we discussed.
2021-02-12T14:09:20Z beach: Clouseau is great now!
2021-02-12T14:09:28Z beach: I no longer use the SLIME inspector.
2021-02-12T14:09:29Z jackdaniel: Nilby: it was created by scymtym, he also created a more visually-pleasing mcclim theme
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2021-02-12T14:11:23Z Nilby: beach: Yes. Considering collective benefits and scarce resources seems like how we have to move forward.
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2021-02-12T14:13:19Z Xach: In my experience, volunteer programming work is not often very strategic in that regard.
2021-02-12T14:15:45Z Nilby: Xach: Yes, I find it's really hard to focus on the very important boring parts when nobody is pushing you to.
2021-02-12T14:17:03Z Nilby: and making people agree seems even harder :o
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2021-02-12T14:22:05Z VincentVega: Nilby: "I think many people have a hard time understanding CLIM" Even though I _skimmed_ through the CLIM specification and found it quite sensible and also looked through Get Excited page and what not, I still feel like I don't know what it's about. though it does seem like there's something about it. I would guess this is a communication problem.
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2021-02-12T14:22:31Z VincentVega: beach: "What I find, let's say "interesting", is how some people seem to prefer to go the FFI route, with lots of pain as a result, rather than contributing a bit to McCLIM."
2021-02-12T14:22:41Z VincentVega: beach: There would be reasons I guess : ) For example, I am currently hacking up an SDL GUI in Common Lisp as I need access to OpenGL. I couldn't make SDL work on McCLIM, though there's a backend, which apparently needs fixing. And there was a video on youtube where a McCLIM OpenGL backend worked, but was pretty slow for some reason. Uncertainty
2021-02-12T14:22:41Z VincentVega: has a way of weighing in on decisions like this.
2021-02-12T14:23:31Z _death: VincentVega: I think the CLIM spec is the wrong place to start.. it's one of the reasons it took me a while to understand, because I started with the CLIM spec, and yeah, I learned a lot about protocol design and CLOS, but to learn CLIM you need to first read a guide or a tutorial
2021-02-12T14:24:44Z VincentVega: VincentVega: which is tutorial examples, I would believe? I guessa will take a look.
2021-02-12T14:24:51Z VincentVega: _death: ^
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2021-02-12T14:28:28Z _death: VincentVega: see Documentation directory in mcclim
2021-02-12T14:28:48Z _death: there's the guided tour
2021-02-12T14:29:00Z Nilby: I feel like one of the core cool things about CLIM is: The thing on the screen is the real object, and you can edit it with the flexibility of emacs, and define how it should look with the flexibility of CLOS. But it's hard to understand immediately, unless you know those things.
2021-02-12T14:29:11Z _death: VincentVega: but there are other papers as well
2021-02-12T14:29:52Z VincentVega: _death: Ok, found it!
2021-02-12T14:31:17Z _death: VincentVega: https://github.com/mmontone/clim-doc
2021-02-12T14:32:00Z VincentVega: Nilby: I feel like this sort of things should be articulated somewhere on the surface, even if being incomplete, if it's to be expected for the reader to really get excited, with further directions.
2021-02-12T14:32:41Z VincentVega: _death: thanks!
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2021-02-12T14:34:45Z Josh_2: Afternoon. Does anyone have a link to the old Bordeaux Threads docs?
2021-02-12T14:35:01Z beach: VincentVega: You don't have to defend yourself to me.  I wasn't targeting you specifically.
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2021-02-12T14:35:43Z VincentVega: beach: You misunderstood. I gave a case in point to your curiosity.
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2021-02-12T14:36:14Z beach: VincentVega: No, I know that there are totally legitimate cases to go FFI.  I am referring to the others.
2021-02-12T14:36:41Z VincentVega: beach: OK.
2021-02-12T14:38:43Z beach: So, in my opinion, we need the McCLIM documentation to be structured bottom-up.  That way, the first chapter(s) will look familiar to people who are used to less sophisticated GUI libraries.  And those who don't want to bother with the higher-level stuff can quit reading after those chapters and just program the way they would with traditional libraries.
2021-02-12T14:39:57Z beach: Then, the rest of the documentation would be structured as convenience layers on top of the protocols implemented by the bottom event-driven layer.
2021-02-12T14:41:04Z Nilby: beach: That sounds great. Although I'm not sure they're just convenience layers.
2021-02-12T14:41:20Z beach: What do you mean?
2021-02-12T14:44:12Z Josh_2: Whats the hyperspec entry on the feature included/not included reader macro?
2021-02-12T14:45:06Z yottabyte: I'm trying to use mito on windows, and as soon as I try mito:connect-toplevel I get an error: Unable to load foreign library (LIBMYSQLCLIENT).  Error opening shared object "libmysql.dll":. I've located this file on my filesystem and I've tried clsql:push-library-path but it's still giving me the same error. I tried both windows paths (backslashes) and linux ones (forward slashes) for the string path
2021-02-12T14:45:06Z beach: Josh_2: The chapter "Syntax"
2021-02-12T14:45:07Z Nilby: I mean, some things like command tables, that are slightly alien to other UIs are somewhat core the CLIM.
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2021-02-12T14:45:51Z beach: Nilby: Sure, I mean, those features are not needed if you prefer to program like you program a more traditional and less sophisticated GUI library.
2021-02-12T14:45:53Z Josh_2: beach: thanks
2021-02-12T14:46:28Z beach: Pleasure.
2021-02-12T14:47:21Z yottabyte: at the end of the day I just want to query a mysql database, if there's a more convenient library to use, I'm all ears. I just want to operate on result sets, not going to be doing any crazy orm stuff. no inserts/deletes
2021-02-12T14:48:56Z _death: yottabyte: there was a library that talks to mysql via sockets I think.. was it qmynd?
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2021-02-12T14:56:59Z yottabyte: well I see this: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/define_002dforeign_002dlibrary.html
2021-02-12T14:57:06Z yottabyte: but I'm not sure how to specify a filepath
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2021-02-12T14:59:37Z dbotton: Nilby you may what to try clog which is itself all CL using a browser for the UI - I have a demo up http://office.botton.com:8080/
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2021-02-12T15:00:27Z dbotton: One of my goals is to be total x platform and depend on as little beyond the lisp image as possible
2021-02-12T15:00:56Z dbotton: The web server would be only real piece of the puzzle that is tied to something not lisp
2021-02-12T15:01:15Z dbotton: And using CLACK to make sure can be switched out etc
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2021-02-12T15:01:57Z dbotton: That is a full desktop abstraction I am working on at moment
2021-02-12T15:02:21Z dbotton: But no reason other then tools to keep that model
2021-02-12T15:02:42Z dbotton: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog
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2021-02-12T15:12:27Z Nilby: dbotton: It seems you're progressing quite quickly. Perhaps if you make the protocol clean enough and not dependent on html/js you can switch between native and web stack rendering. No doubt it's tricky though.
2021-02-12T15:12:43Z nij: what does m stand for in "mrepl"?
2021-02-12T15:14:55Z Nilby: Maryland
2021-02-12T15:15:48Z _death: multi
2021-02-12T15:16:02Z Josh_2: I prefer Maryland
2021-02-12T15:16:17Z _death: multi meanings for mrepl
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2021-02-12T15:17:35Z nij: oh i thought it's muh-repl
2021-02-12T15:17:56Z nij: so multi in the sense that many repls can connect to one sbcl instance?
2021-02-12T15:18:36Z _death: if you open slime-mrepl.el you can see the top comment :)
2021-02-12T15:19:36Z Josh_2: muh-repl xD
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2021-02-12T15:19:40Z Josh_2: that was be great
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2021-02-12T15:20:22Z nij: xD
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2021-02-12T15:20:27Z Nilby: oh shid muh-repl!!! 👾
2021-02-12T15:20:35Z dbotton: Nilby the plan is not to drop html/js, but I will have a version that drops using websockets for direct to browser control
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2021-02-12T15:20:43Z _death: o-m-r
2021-02-12T15:20:49Z nij: lol
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2021-02-12T15:21:15Z nij: Btw.. there's a difference in terms of output I get between these expressions.. one using let and one not.. WHY @@? https://bpa.st/O3SA
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2021-02-12T15:21:31Z dbotton: For guis having a interpreted layer very worth while
2021-02-12T15:21:49Z dbotton: Like osx used PDF as its
2021-02-12T15:21:56Z dbotton: Next PS
2021-02-12T15:21:59Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-02-12T15:22:07Z dbotton: This is a progression to HTML
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2021-02-12T15:22:29Z jmercouris: dbotton: what is a PS?
2021-02-12T15:22:30Z dbotton: There are many places to improve on it for sure, protocol etc
2021-02-12T15:22:34Z dbotton: Post script
2021-02-12T15:22:39Z Nilby: dbotton: Intersting. To be fair qt now uses qtml. Maybe an integration with nyxt?
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2021-02-12T15:23:12Z dbotton: I not familiar with nyxt
2021-02-12T15:23:14Z _death: nij: special variable bindings are per thread, and *standard-output* is a special variable
2021-02-12T15:23:26Z jmercouris: dbotton: I assume you’ve seen ceramic or porcelain the electron wrapper for CL
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2021-02-12T15:23:45Z dbotton: Yes I have used it and works well with ceramic
2021-02-12T15:24:14Z jmercouris: We have a UI library we use in Nyxt too
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2021-02-12T15:24:30Z nij: _death: is special var a techinical term? How do I check a variable is special? I thought *abc* always mean a /global/ variable..?
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2021-02-12T15:24:52Z dbotton: What is the url for the source for nyxt?
2021-02-12T15:24:57Z jmercouris: It is a technical term
2021-02-12T15:25:06Z jmercouris: Nyxt.atlas.engineer
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2021-02-12T15:25:24Z _death: nij: a special variable is defined using defvar/defparameter, or special declaration.. the earmuffs are convention for naming special variables..
2021-02-12T15:25:26Z dbotton: Nyxt does its own rendering of HTML?
2021-02-12T15:25:26Z jmercouris: nij: the stars are just a convention
2021-02-12T15:25:33Z jmercouris: Not exactly
2021-02-12T15:25:36Z nij: i see
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2021-02-12T15:26:03Z _death: nij: the swank repl binds *standard-output*, and that binding is local to the repl thread
2021-02-12T15:26:12Z jmercouris: dbotton: please read the FAQ
2021-02-12T15:27:36Z _death: nij: you can see definition for "special variable" in the clhs glossary.. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm
2021-02-12T15:28:30Z _death: nij: and for a good explanation of scope and extent, you could read the CLtL2 chapter
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2021-02-12T15:36:17Z nij: i feel like i understand this (lexical/dynamic) but have never got it straight.
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2021-02-12T15:37:45Z nij: Oh.. pointed here that (lexical/dynamic) is just /approximately/ (local/global)!
2021-02-12T15:37:53Z nij: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html
2021-02-12T15:38:13Z nij: That maybe why I always feel kinky about my understanding upon this.
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2021-02-12T15:40:12Z tfb: nij: no lexical and dynamic is not to do with local and global.  You can have local dynamic bindings.  CL does not have global lexicals by default but they can be emulated
2021-02-12T15:40:29Z nij: I see. M reading gigamonkey again. It's really well-written.
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2021-02-12T15:42:30Z fubbiquantz: Is nil an atom?
2021-02-12T15:42:52Z Nilby: T
2021-02-12T15:42:53Z tfb: yes
2021-02-12T15:43:06Z fubbiquantz: How about '()?
2021-02-12T15:43:09Z tfb: yes
2021-02-12T15:43:11Z nij: It's also a list, i believe.
2021-02-12T15:43:23Z nij: no...? '() stands for (quote ())
2021-02-12T15:43:28Z fubbiquantz: (I know '() and nil are the same)
2021-02-12T15:43:31Z beach: *sigh*
2021-02-12T15:43:33Z nij: it's a list, before evaluation
2021-02-12T15:43:59Z nij: Whenever beach *sigh*s I feel a breeze from the ocean.
2021-02-12T15:44:15Z nij: (a sense that i miss)
2021-02-12T15:44:43Z lisp-machine: nij: you used to live near the ocean?
2021-02-12T15:44:46Z beach: fubbiquantz: ' is a reader macro that turns '<mumble> into (quote <mumble>).
2021-02-12T15:45:03Z nij: lisp-machine: i used to live on a small island, surrounded by ocean
2021-02-12T15:45:06Z beach: fubbiquantz: So when it is read, '() turns into (quote nil).
2021-02-12T15:45:21Z lisp-machine: nij: that's pretty cool!
2021-02-12T15:45:23Z fubbiquantz: ok, that answers my question. Thanks.
2021-02-12T15:45:32Z nij: lisp-machine: xD
2021-02-12T15:45:33Z beach: fubbiquantz: Then, since NIL evaluates to itself, then when (quote nil) is evaluated, the value is nil.
2021-02-12T15:46:00Z nij: (quote (quote nil)) -> (quote nil) -> nil -> nil -> nil -> ..
2021-02-12T15:46:19Z beach: fubbiquantz: so, no, you can't say that '() and nil are the same.  Because it depends on what you mean by "is".
2021-02-12T15:46:24Z beach: .. and "are".
2021-02-12T15:46:25Z nij: lisp-machine: now I'm in the middle of the US
2021-02-12T15:46:33Z nij: no mountain, no ocean..
2021-02-12T15:46:43Z lisp-machine: so am I. Midwest...
2021-02-12T15:46:46Z beach: nij: What is "->"?
2021-02-12T15:46:53Z nij: fubbiquantz: after evaluation, they are the same
2021-02-12T15:46:55Z fubbiquantz: Perhaps my Scheme background is messing with my mind? :)
2021-02-12T15:47:07Z beach: nij: Common Lisp evaluates only once, not until a "normal form" is obtained.
2021-02-12T15:47:07Z nij: By "->" i mean evaluation
2021-02-12T15:47:20Z nij: yep only once
2021-02-12T15:47:38Z nij: lisp-machine: xD i missed mountain climbing and ocean breeze
2021-02-12T15:47:48Z nij: thus i came to #lisp, at lease i got the breeze
2021-02-12T15:48:15Z beach: fubbiquantz: In that respect, there is no great difference between Common Lisp and Scheme I think.
2021-02-12T15:48:27Z tfb: fubbiquantz: Scheme has no notion of atom, really.  But in Scheme () is not self-evaluating
2021-02-12T15:48:37Z lisp-machine: nij: I'd like to move somewhere with mountains. It's as flat as a puddle here.
2021-02-12T15:48:39Z nij: WHAT scheme doesn't have atom :O!
2021-02-12T15:48:57Z beach: nij: Also, NIL is a list as well.
2021-02-12T15:49:07Z nij: yep
2021-02-12T15:49:15Z nij: it's a list of nothing
2021-02-12T15:49:18Z nij: i like this idea
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2021-02-12T15:49:53Z tfb: nij: I don't think any scheme has had atom as a type (or an atom? predicate), although I may be wrong on this.
2021-02-12T15:49:54Z Nilby: fubbiquantz: It's probably CL messing with your mind. Schmee is very sensible. CL is deeply weird. CL has been messing with mine for years.
2021-02-12T15:50:28Z tfb: ('any scheme' meaning, post RnRS for maybe n < 3)
2021-02-12T15:50:31Z fubbiquantz: Nilby: glad to know I'm not alone in feeling like Dr. Strange is a documentary about Lisp programming.
2021-02-12T15:50:51Z fubbiquantz: (common lisp programming, I mean)
2021-02-12T15:51:23Z Nilby: But I find the rest of the universe to be deeply weird too.
2021-02-12T15:51:33Z beach: fubbiquantz: Wait until you start learning about the MOP.  Then your mind is going to be messed with much worse.
2021-02-12T15:52:26Z fubbiquantz: If CL programming is Dr. Strange in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, then what part of CL is the dark dimension? The loop macro?
2021-02-12T15:52:31Z fubbiquantz: beach: I can't wait.
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2021-02-12T15:56:17Z Xach: fubbiquantz: the pretty printer
2021-02-12T15:57:14Z jmercouris: Any CL code formatter exist?
2021-02-12T15:57:24Z jmercouris: Other than simply printing forms via CL itself
2021-02-12T15:57:36Z sjl: https://github.com/ds26gte/scmindent for indentation-only
2021-02-12T15:57:46Z dim: I use Emacs as my CL code formatter ;-)
2021-02-12T15:57:46Z jmercouris: I’m thinking of some automatic code styler type tools that exist for other languages
2021-02-12T15:58:06Z Nilby: heh, I think the dark dimension is where you get to from the FFI
2021-02-12T15:58:41Z dim: does https://editorconfig.org/ cover Common Lisp?
2021-02-12T16:01:43Z nij: I'm still confused.. why doesn't it print "100\n50" but "100\n100" instead?
2021-02-12T16:01:43Z nij: (setf abc 100) (let ((tmp abc)) (print tmp) (setf abc 50) (print tmp))
2021-02-12T16:02:11Z jmercouris: sjl: thanks
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2021-02-12T16:04:00Z tfb: nij: what would you expect "x=3; y=x; print y; x=4; print y;" to do in some traditional language?
2021-02-12T16:04:18Z nij: 3 and 3
2021-02-12T16:04:33Z tfb: nij: well, there you go then
2021-02-12T16:04:57Z nij: so (let ((tmp abc)) .. has already evaluated tmp to be the value of abc at /that time/?
2021-02-12T16:05:03Z nij: and then the body is performed
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2021-02-12T16:05:46Z tfb: exactly: let binds variables to values
2021-02-12T16:06:18Z Nilby: or you could (with-output-to-string (s) (let ((*print-case* :downcase)) (pprint (read-from-string str) s))) But it not so hot. Like it says NIL when you might want ()
2021-02-12T16:06:37Z tfb: (let ((x y)) ...) is pretty much ((lambda (x) ...) y) (it's not actually defined that way in CL of course)
2021-02-12T16:06:58Z nij: i thought i understood my previous question. .but no
2021-02-12T16:06:59Z nij: https://bpa.st/O3SA
2021-02-12T16:07:39Z nij: why would these give different things?.. if as what you said, out has been bound to *standard-output* already
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2021-02-12T16:09:37Z tfb: Because (lambda () (uiop/image:print-backtrace :stream *standard-output*)) is a function.  So it evaluates its body only when it is called, and since it uses *standard-output* free it gets the value of *standard-output* which is in effect at the moment it is called
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2021-02-12T16:10:48Z nij: O H : O !
2021-02-12T16:10:52Z tfb: (because *standard-output* is a dynamic variable).
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2021-02-12T16:11:32Z nij: so the second form (with let) it freezes the content of *standard-output* to OUT before the function runs!?
2021-02-12T16:11:43Z nij: Finally T_T thank you..
2021-02-12T16:12:22Z tfb: While in ((let ((out ...)) (lambda ... (... out))) out is lexical, so the value of out in the function is the value which was lexically visible when the function was defined
2021-02-12T16:13:58Z nij: It's crystal clear now. Thanks :D
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2021-02-12T17:37:46Z cage_: Hi! I do not know if the people (maybe a single person? I do not know who they are) that made available a lot of CL libraries on guix are here but if yes i would like to make a big thanks for their efforts! :)
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2021-02-12T17:42:54Z nij: cage_ guixers don't use #'ql:quickload?
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2021-02-12T17:43:25Z Inline: let over lambda
2021-02-12T17:43:40Z Inline: is a .....
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2021-02-12T17:43:48Z Inline: closure
2021-02-12T17:44:05Z cage_: nij, i can not answer because i am just trying to learng guix but seems to me that if a library is available on guix quicklisp is not necessary
2021-02-12T17:44:20Z nij: gasp
2021-02-12T17:44:51Z cage_: but of course not all the libraries tha are available from quicklist are in guix and moreover the goal of the two program is different
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2021-02-12T17:46:21Z cage_: i do not think guix is (or could be in the future) a replacement for quicklisp, but i am just starting studing guix so i can be easly wrong
2021-02-12T17:46:22Z nij: yeah make sense.. quicklisp would be redundent if guix strive
2021-02-12T17:46:44Z nij: guix aims (partly) at reproducible package management
2021-02-12T17:47:01Z nij: it makes sense..
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2021-02-12T17:48:44Z cage_: Inline, is your sentence a question?
2021-02-12T17:49:59Z Inline: no a statement
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2021-02-12T17:50:17Z cage_: Inline, OK! ;-)
2021-02-12T17:50:59Z rogersm: Does anyone has experience with accessing sqlite3 db using cl-sync?
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2021-02-12T17:52:49Z cage_: rogersm, sorry i can not help, never used this library
2021-02-12T17:53:44Z cage_: cl-sync :)
2021-02-12T17:53:54Z rogersm: thx
2021-02-12T17:54:02Z cage_: no problem
2021-02-12T17:54:21Z cage_: are you having trouble with it?
2021-02-12T17:55:40Z rogersm: no, I just want to know the responsiveness of it. sqlite3 with clsql is a blocking lib, but I don't know if performance is too impacted
2021-02-12T17:56:38Z cage_: sorry maybe i misunderstood are you referring to cl-async or cl-sync
2021-02-12T17:56:47Z cage_: because both exists :)
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2021-02-12T18:14:32Z cage_: rogersm, FWIW i used cl-sqlite for a web application using hunchentoot and the performance was very good reading and acceptable when writing
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2021-02-12T18:24:43Z Nilby: I find the performance sqlite3 with clsql very acceptable, but I haven't used it for big databases, or high throughput.
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2021-02-12T18:30:42Z cage_: i used it also in a desktop application (again, cl-sqlite) and works just fine but no concurrent access is involved in this case
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2021-02-12T18:41:16Z rogersm: thanks
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2021-02-12T19:10:09Z yottabyte: can't get this to work on windows still :< https://github.com/fukamachi/cl-dbi
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2021-02-12T19:30:40Z yottabyte: using https://github.com/qitab/qmynd for now, which works
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2021-02-12T20:30:19Z yottabyte: why does (length (uiop:run-program "echo hi" :output :string)) return 4? I thought it would just be 3 max, 1 more than "hi" for the carriage return ^M. really I just want to capture the output "hi"
2021-02-12T20:31:18Z mfiano: Becuase there are 4 arguments?
2021-02-12T20:32:26Z yottabyte: oh... I was trying to get the output of "echo hi" as the result
2021-02-12T20:32:51Z mfiano: Wait no
2021-02-12T20:33:24Z mfiano: That is getting the length of the first of 3 return values
2021-02-12T20:34:24Z yottabyte: so I want the return value to be "hi", how do I do that?
2021-02-12T20:35:45Z yottabyte: (length "hi") => 2, that's what I was expecting
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2021-02-12T20:37:15Z Josh_2: yottabyte: there is a newline thats why
2021-02-12T20:37:17Z mfiano: The newline is included because it :output '(:string :stripped t) it  looks like
2021-02-12T20:37:33Z phoe: yottabyte: what is your OS?
2021-02-12T20:37:50Z mfiano: Sorry half finished thought there. But just pass :output '(:string :stripped t) it  looks like
2021-02-12T20:37:51Z phoe: sounds like windows if you have CRLF line endings
2021-02-12T20:38:03Z mfiano: It happens on Linux too
2021-02-12T20:38:10Z mfiano: You need that special output form
2021-02-12T20:38:16Z phoe: yes, but without the CR
2021-02-12T20:39:30Z yottabyte: oh yeah, I'm on windows. it does 2 extra characters
2021-02-12T20:39:55Z mfiano: (length (uiop:run-program "echo hi" :output '(:string :stripped t))) ; => 2
2021-02-12T20:39:58Z yottabyte: that worked, thanks
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2021-02-12T21:22:08Z yottabyte: does anyone know how to get Bearer authorization working with dexador?
2021-02-12T21:24:27Z equwal: Is something wrong with drakma now?
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2021-02-12T21:27:35Z equwal: Huh, I guess this is actually an old project. Are people using it?
2021-02-12T21:28:44Z phoe: yes, drakma is pretty stable all in all!
2021-02-12T21:28:59Z sjl: I use Drakma a lot.  It works well.
2021-02-12T21:31:10Z equwal: Sorry, my question was referring to this dexador program, I hadn't heard of it, I always used drakma
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2021-02-12T21:32:04Z equwal: Apparently dexador 'is aimed at replacing drakma' but I wonder why one would want that.
2021-02-12T21:44:41Z mfiano: People do like speed, it's first reason.
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2021-02-12T21:48:06Z equwal: wow, that's actually a pretty big difference. https://github.com/fukamachi/dexador#benchmark
2021-02-12T21:48:34Z Josh_2: I think that Drakma can reuse connections as well
2021-02-12T21:50:29Z Josh_2: Been banging my head against the wall wondering why my code doesn't behave as expected, turns out trivial-timeout isn't working
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2021-02-12T21:54:57Z Josh_2: Doesn't seem to me that BT wraps the timeout conditions as the condition signalled is sb-ext:timeout :(
2021-02-12T21:56:59Z equwal: Why are you using a project that was last updated in 2013? n
2021-02-12T21:57:55Z Josh_2: Well the current CL standard is from 1994
2021-02-12T21:58:24Z Josh_2: I guess timers are just implementation dependent hence the library
2021-02-12T21:58:50Z recalloc: fukamachi pulled my request. nice!
2021-02-12T21:59:05Z equwal: Well, just don't expect it to work magically with SBCL and BT if it hasn't been updated for 8 years. Maybe make a fork?
2021-02-12T22:00:08Z equwal: The standard doesn't control threads, correct.
2021-02-12T22:00:42Z equwal: That is why BT is a 'lowest common denominator' wrapper
2021-02-12T22:01:07Z Josh_2: to be fair a fork would just depend on BT, because BT controls the version, it would just mean finding the condition signalled on each implementation
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2021-02-12T22:05:54Z equwal: If you do it, I believe in you.
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2021-02-12T23:24:04Z hendursaga: For the ~r directive for format, how might I go about outputting it in another language?
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2021-02-12T23:41:58Z Alfr: hendursaga, (format nil "~R" 5) will /always/ give you "five", ~R is required you give you the corresponding cardinal in English.
2021-02-12T23:42:19Z Alfr: clhs 22.3.2.1
2021-02-12T23:42:20Z specbot: Tilde R: Radix: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cba.htm
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2021-02-12T23:54:53Z Josh_2: misplaced ` cost me an hour of my life
2021-02-12T23:55:05Z Josh_2: casual lisp things
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2021-02-13T00:46:13Z hendursaga: Alfr: Yes but in say French?
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2021-02-13T00:50:20Z Alfr: There's ~A with an appropriate string or ~/func-name/, but I think you'll have to write that translation yourself.
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2021-02-13T01:31:46Z matthewcroughan: Hey! I'm very new to lisp, I'm trying to demonstrate something to a friend using MQTT. There is a library for it here, but I just can't find any examples that lead me to success in loading it. https://github.com/ivan4th/cl-mqtt
2021-02-13T01:32:27Z matthewcroughan: (ql:quickload 'cl-async-repl) (ql:quickload 'swank) (as-repl:start-async-repl) leads to the following error
2021-02-13T01:32:30Z matthewcroughan: `Cannot initialize *SLIME-REPL-EVAL-HOOKS*, use (eval-in-gui-thread ...) form.`
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2021-02-13T01:39:07Z Xach has never tried those libraries
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2021-02-13T01:45:16Z matthewcroughan: Xach: well, I basically just wanna send some mqtt packets over the network :p
2021-02-13T01:45:39Z matthewcroughan: I've got the repos cloned, just wondering how I would load them and "run" the lisp files.
2021-02-13T01:46:33Z Xach: matthewcroughan: if i were just starting, i think i would avoid something that uses event loops, threads, and foreign libraries.
2021-02-13T01:46:57Z Xach: (i am not just starting and i still avoid those things, when i can help it, but if you have to use them, you have to use them)
2021-02-13T01:46:59Z matthewcroughan: Xach: I just want to submit some MQTT packets, using avail libraries, just because I want to prove to my friend it's possible.
2021-02-13T01:47:11Z matthewcroughan: Everything here is pure lisp, if we can't load that we're screwed ;P
2021-02-13T01:47:53Z Xach: oh, that's cool. i had the wrong impression about FFI, then.
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2021-02-13T01:52:57Z Josh_2: Well cl-async-repl isn't pure list
2021-02-13T01:52:59Z Josh_2: lisp*
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2021-02-13T01:56:40Z Josh_2: I don't know if the library still works It's 6 years old and has dependencies that don't exist in QL
2021-02-13T01:59:26Z Josh_2: matthewcroughan: http://finisterra.motd.org/?p=237
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2021-02-13T02:02:09Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: that doesn't tell me anything about using sbcl/clisp on the command line to actually run that code, that's just code.
2021-02-13T02:02:11Z matthewcroughan: How can I use it?
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2021-02-13T02:09:29Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: If I put that example into a file called example.lisp and then `sbcl --load example.lisp` it fails at many points
2021-02-13T02:09:38Z matthewcroughan: Don't know how to REQUIRE ABCL-CONTRIB.
2021-02-13T02:11:41Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: why is this library not reproducible? Is there no build system to produce it?
2021-02-13T02:11:45Z matthewcroughan: you seen nix, on that topic?
2021-02-13T02:13:12Z Josh_2: For that one you need to be using ABCL, not SBCL
2021-02-13T02:14:00Z Josh_2: ABCL is built on JVM so it can call java libraries, so you can use the Java version of MQTT
2021-02-13T02:16:58Z matthewcroughan: Interesting
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2021-02-13T02:19:07Z Josh_2: also you don't want to be just running code on the command line
2021-02-13T02:19:20Z Josh_2: you should be using a repl
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2021-02-13T02:20:28Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: Error loading /home/matthew/git/clisp/abcl-mqtt.lisp at line 114 (offset 4978)
2021-02-13T02:20:28Z matthewcroughan: #<THREAD "interpreter" {6618EE9C}>: Debugger invoked on condition of type JAVA-EXCEPTION
2021-02-13T02:20:28Z matthewcroughan:   Java exception 'java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: MQTTCONNECTOPTIONS'.
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2021-02-13T02:20:38Z Josh_2: well yeh
2021-02-13T02:20:48Z matthewcroughan: so how would I run that? :p
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2021-02-13T02:20:50Z Josh_2: you are trying to do something you can only do with ABCL in Clisp
2021-02-13T02:21:01Z matthewcroughan: no, I am not, I don't believe.
2021-02-13T02:21:05Z matthewcroughan: `abcl --load abcl-mqtt.lisp `
2021-02-13T02:21:11Z Josh_2: oh right
2021-02-13T02:21:14Z Josh_2: sorry
2021-02-13T02:21:39Z Josh_2: well unfortunately for you I don't know anything about how Java works, maybe you have to go find that library from some place?
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2021-02-13T02:23:04Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: LOL https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/armedbear-devel/2013-June/002959.html
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2021-02-13T02:25:57Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: what is the "classpath"?
2021-02-13T02:26:13Z Josh_2: Idk
2021-02-13T02:26:13Z matthewcroughan: the comments state there's a JAR file that needs to be in the classpath.
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2021-02-13T02:27:34Z matthewcroughan: is the guy who wrote this here? :D
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2021-02-13T02:37:53Z matthewcroughan: can anybody save me?
2021-02-13T02:39:55Z matthewcroughan: alandipert: You look knowledgable, I just went searching for answers and found this post. https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/676cse/watson_iot_with_common_lisp/
2021-02-13T02:40:18Z matthewcroughan: I ended up seeing your face on a 6 day old video "Common Lisp for the Curious Clojurian"
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2021-02-13T02:52:41Z matthewcroughan: can anyone tell me how to load libraries on the filesystem? lol
2021-02-13T02:54:20Z Josh_2: load?
2021-02-13T02:54:39Z alandipert: matthewcroughan check out https://github.com/armedbear/abcl/tree/master/contrib/abcl-asdf#example-2
2021-02-13T02:54:53Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: load and then what?
2021-02-13T02:54:58Z matthewcroughan: how do I give it a path, what's the syntax?
2021-02-13T02:55:33Z matthewcroughan: alandipert: I really want to use cl-mqtt, since cl-async loads perfectly fine
2021-02-13T02:55:53Z matthewcroughan: I just can't figure out how to actually load that library from my disk, such that I can start utilising it.
2021-02-13T02:55:58Z alandipert: oh, then i'm of no help, sorry
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2021-02-13T02:56:15Z matthewcroughan: alandipert: If you can help with ABCL, I'm all ears ;P
2021-02-13T02:56:20Z Josh_2: You put it in you quicklisp/local-projects folder and then do (ql:quickload :<library>)
2021-02-13T02:56:39Z Josh_2: thats how you load lisp libraries anyway
2021-02-13T02:56:45Z Josh_2: or you can use asdf
2021-02-13T02:56:49Z matthewcroughan: But no readme on earth will suggest this to you
2021-02-13T02:57:00Z matthewcroughan: even that abcl-asdf assumes you have knowledge, it doesn't even tell you to clone the project
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2021-02-13T02:58:14Z matthewcroughan: Right, so I have cloned the project to my CD
2021-02-13T02:58:18Z matthewcroughan: `git clone https://github.com/armedbear/abcl.git`
2021-02-13T02:58:32Z Josh_2: wat
2021-02-13T02:58:33Z matthewcroughan: I am now in that repo's root, and I have ran `abcl`
2021-02-13T02:58:42Z Josh_2: you are cloning all of abcl?
2021-02-13T02:58:50Z matthewcroughan: yes
2021-02-13T02:59:25Z matthewcroughan: my pwd is `/home/matthew/git/clisp/abcl/contrib/abcl-asdf`
2021-02-13T02:59:45Z matthewcroughan: I've ran `abcl` in that directory, my prompt is now `CL-USER(1):`
2021-02-13T03:00:32Z Josh_2: thats a good prompt
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2021-02-13T03:00:43Z matthewcroughan: running the `(require :abcl-asdf)` and other require cmds worked fine
2021-02-13T03:00:46Z Josh_2: did you ever lookup how to get construct a proper Lisp environment?
2021-02-13T03:01:07Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: I do not know what that means. I'm just using the nix package for it which constructs a stdenv.
2021-02-13T03:01:13Z Josh_2: yikes
2021-02-13T03:01:22Z matthewcroughan: Please, do not make assumptions. Just try to help me <3
2021-02-13T03:01:32Z matthewcroughan: I just want to load some code ;D
2021-02-13T03:01:46Z Josh_2: Do you use vim/emacs?
2021-02-13T03:01:48Z matthewcroughan: yes
2021-02-13T03:01:51Z Josh_2: which one?
2021-02-13T03:01:54Z matthewcroughan: vim
2021-02-13T03:02:04Z Josh_2: https://github.com/vlime/vlime
2021-02-13T03:02:35Z matthewcroughan: I would really like to learn to load some code in the repl before grabbing that.
2021-02-13T03:03:13Z waleee-cl: go to the directory, start your repl, (load "___.lisp")?
2021-02-13T03:03:23Z Josh_2: Well thats a development environment that allows you do interact with a lisp image in a nice way
2021-02-13T03:03:24Z waleee-cl: recommend to use rlwrap
2021-02-13T03:04:50Z matthewcroughan: I just want to load cl-mqtt, I have cloned it.
2021-02-13T03:04:59Z matthewcroughan: https://github.com/ivan4th/cl-mqtt
2021-02-13T03:05:14Z matthewcroughan: This is a collection of *.lisp files, how do I utilise them at all?
2021-02-13T03:05:20Z Josh_2: cl-mqtt doesn't work
2021-02-13T03:05:22Z Josh_2: It's bitrotted
2021-02-13T03:05:41Z matthewcroughan: That is not substantiated, you have not tried it.
2021-02-13T03:05:45Z Josh_2: Yes I have
2021-02-13T03:05:54Z matthewcroughan: Why is it not reproducible?
2021-02-13T03:06:22Z Josh_2: I cloned it into quicklisp/local-projects ran (ql:quickload :cl-mqtt) and it didn't work
2021-02-13T03:06:35Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/Lz08XjW.png
2021-02-13T03:06:45Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: There is a comment from the author here. https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/676cse/watson_iot_with_common_lisp/
2021-02-13T03:06:49Z matthewcroughan: >If anyone's interested I've wrote an MQTT client implementation in CL some time ago that doesn't need Java. It uses cl-async. Well, it probably has some bugs, and I didn't update it in a while, but it works most of the time from my experience
2021-02-13T03:07:50Z Josh_2: Do you have quicklisp installed?
2021-02-13T03:08:14Z matthewcroughan: yes, and in there I have:
2021-02-13T03:08:15Z matthewcroughan: asdf.lisp         dists           quicklisp   tmp
2021-02-13T03:08:15Z matthewcroughan: client-info.sexp  local-projects  setup.lisp
2021-02-13T03:08:40Z Josh_2: right well clone cl-mqtt into local-projects, open your lisp image and run (ql:quickload :cl-mqtt)
2021-02-13T03:09:19Z matthewcroughan: ((LABELS QUICKLISP-CLIENT::RECURSE :IN QUICKLISP-CLIENT::COMPUTE-LOAD-STRATEGY) "i4-diet-utils")
2021-02-13T03:09:28Z matthewcroughan: so I wonder what i4-diet-utils is
2021-02-13T03:09:41Z matthewcroughan: it comes from his repos
2021-02-13T03:09:43Z matthewcroughan: https://github.com/ivan4th/i4-diet-utils
2021-02-13T03:10:16Z Josh_2: clone that into local-projects as well
2021-02-13T03:10:19Z matthewcroughan: cl-mqtt/package.lisp:  (:use :cl :alexandria :iterate :i4-diet-utils)
2021-02-13T03:11:19Z matthewcroughan: seems to work, hah
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2021-02-13T03:11:26Z matthewcroughan: so much for bitrot mr assumption ;)
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2021-02-13T03:11:32Z matthewcroughan: spectacular
2021-02-13T03:11:40Z Josh_2: well It's good it works
2021-02-13T03:11:45Z matthewcroughan: now to try some code
2021-02-13T03:12:32Z Josh_2: Now would be the time to install a good development environment
2021-02-13T03:12:43Z matthewcroughan: It's a one-off.
2021-02-13T03:12:52Z Josh_2: Shame
2021-02-13T03:12:53Z matthewcroughan: besides, nix gave me one
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2021-02-13T03:13:30Z matthewcroughan: look into nix and what it does, put biases to one side and try nix-shell for something.
2021-02-13T03:13:43Z Josh_2: why are you making such an effort for a one off?
2021-02-13T03:13:50Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: fun.
2021-02-13T03:14:09Z Josh_2: what is there to showoff in just running some random library?
2021-02-13T03:14:17Z matthewcroughan: turning a light on and off with lisp
2021-02-13T03:14:35Z Josh_2: okay fair enough
2021-02-13T03:14:38Z matthewcroughan: there's a guy here learning lisp and saying it's superior for everything, so I'm challenging my self to do what I did with bash in 1 minute ;D
2021-02-13T03:14:42Z matthewcroughan: In lisp*
2021-02-13T03:15:02Z prxq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-02-13T03:15:16Z Josh_2: surely you would achieve that faster in bash because you understand bash better?
2021-02-13T03:15:46Z Josh_2: Also your mate is correct
2021-02-13T03:15:48Z Josh_2: ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ
2021-02-13T03:16:31Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: I already achieved it in bash, now I've just spent 2-3 hrs trying to do it in Lisp for fun
2021-02-13T03:16:56Z Josh_2: lul
2021-02-13T03:17:59Z Josh_2: Does your friend come to this IRC channel?
2021-02-13T03:18:06Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-02-13T03:18:50Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: nope, he's just a streamer
2021-02-13T03:18:56Z matthewcroughan: https://www.twitch.tv/mr_bournbastic
2021-02-13T03:19:01Z matthewcroughan: he just plays chess lol
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2021-02-13T03:20:01Z matthewcroughan: this is his very first exposure to programming, we just gave him a book about lisp called "Common Lisp; A gentle introduction to symbolic computation"
2021-02-13T03:20:10Z Josh_2: Yes thats a good book
2021-02-13T03:20:14Z Josh_2: that was my first programming book
2021-02-13T03:21:54Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: he's asking for further recommendations after this book, got any?
2021-02-13T03:22:20Z Josh_2: Practical Common Lisp
2021-02-13T03:22:24Z waleee-cl: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ , https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2021-02-13T03:22:28Z Josh_2: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
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2021-02-13T03:23:52Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: Weird, so I can define the first func from that guy's readme on cl-mqtt
2021-02-13T03:23:56Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-02-13T03:24:10Z matthewcroughan: You can watch my terminal here and see more context
2021-02-13T03:24:13Z matthewcroughan: ssh ro-pEHBuqtMKQYsugVjnNb4yHqXN@lon1.tmate.io
2021-02-13T03:24:23Z matthewcroughan: or a web session if you prefer https://tmate.io/t/ro-pEHBuqtMKQYsugVjnNb4yHqXN
2021-02-13T03:25:14Z matthewcroughan: It returns TEST-IT as you can hopefully see
2021-02-13T03:25:17Z Josh_2: Ye
2021-02-13T03:25:32Z matthewcroughan: I now expect to be able to use it
2021-02-13T03:25:38Z Josh_2: Now you just run (test-it <host> <port>)
2021-02-13T03:26:01Z matthewcroughan: what does it mean to have no output?
2021-02-13T03:26:11Z Josh_2: well it might be a thread in the background'
2021-02-13T03:26:22Z Josh_2: oh right It's not
2021-02-13T03:26:29Z matthewcroughan: but there is no `(as-repl:start-async-repl)`
2021-02-13T03:26:33Z matthewcroughan: we haven't started anthing
2021-02-13T03:27:11Z matthewcroughan: I am running a broker on the network that I can do `mosquitto_pub -h <ip> -t <topic> -m 'message'
2021-02-13T03:27:32Z matthewcroughan: I expect `(test-it "localhost" 1883)` to submit messages, wondering if this is not the case, and if this is in fact a broker :D
2021-02-13T03:28:06Z Josh_2: well It's subscribing and the publishing
2021-02-13T03:28:36Z Josh_2: if you subscribe with another client do you see anything sent on those topics?
2021-02-13T03:28:42Z matthewcroughan: yup
2021-02-13T03:28:47Z matthewcroughan: I'll show you
2021-02-13T03:28:50Z Josh_2: so It's working?
2021-02-13T03:29:01Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-02-13T03:29:04Z matthewcroughan: you're still in the ssh session right?
2021-02-13T03:29:07Z Josh_2: yes
2021-02-13T03:29:55Z matthewcroughan: no message, as can be seen :D
2021-02-13T03:30:08Z Josh_2: but the lisp code is only publishing
2021-02-13T03:30:24Z Josh_2: to topics like /a/b
2021-02-13T03:30:34Z matthewcroughan: yes, and my command is listening to *everything*
2021-02-13T03:30:37Z matthewcroughan: -t '#'
2021-02-13T03:30:37Z Josh_2: oh right
2021-02-13T03:31:06Z matthewcroughan: wled/2199a4, if I sent a message like `-m "OFF"` it would turn the light here off.
2021-02-13T03:31:11Z Josh_2: well I don't know then
2021-02-13T03:31:37Z matthewcroughan: maybe it needs a message argument, but that was defined in the function `test-it`
2021-02-13T03:31:54Z matthewcroughan: (mqtt:publish conn "/a/b" "whatever1")
2021-02-13T03:32:59Z matthewcroughan: ah yes, this message again
2021-02-13T03:33:05Z matthewcroughan: says it can't work because of some gui library LOL
2021-02-13T03:33:13Z matthewcroughan: source: (ERROR "Cannot initialize *SLIME-REPL-EVAL-HOOKS*, ~
2021-02-13T03:33:30Z Josh_2: slime is the primary means of interacting with a lisp image
2021-02-13T03:33:40Z Josh_2: It's not a gui library
2021-02-13T03:33:45Z matthewcroughan: `use (eval-in-gui-thread ...) form.")`
2021-02-13T03:33:48Z matthewcroughan: what does this mean then?
2021-02-13T03:34:10Z Josh_2: if you install vlime and run your lisp image from that you won't have that problem
2021-02-13T03:34:37Z Josh_2: because vlime will use slime to communicate with the lisp image
2021-02-13T03:35:52Z Josh_2: Just typing instructions directly into the SBCL image at terminal is a dreadful way to interact with a lisp image
2021-02-13T03:36:01Z matthewcroughan: what is the "image"?
2021-02-13T03:36:14Z Josh_2: Common Lisp is an image based programming language, like smalltalk
2021-02-13T03:36:25Z matthewcroughan: so is the "image" the .lisp file?
2021-02-13T03:36:30Z jonatack_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-02-13T03:36:31Z Josh_2: http://wiki.c2.com/?ImageBasedLanguage
2021-02-13T03:37:32Z matthewcroughan: right..
2021-02-13T03:37:35Z matthewcroughan: let's try vlime
2021-02-13T03:38:09Z Josh_2: I hope your friend has been learning CL using either Emacs or Vim
2021-02-13T03:38:17Z matthewcroughan: emacs
2021-02-13T03:38:27Z Josh_2: and hes been using slime with emacs?
2021-02-13T03:38:47Z matthewcroughan: nope, unsure what his setup is
2021-02-13T03:38:55Z matthewcroughan: I gave him the jupyter clisp kernel actually
2021-02-13T03:39:10Z matthewcroughan: v
2021-02-13T03:39:12Z matthewcroughan: https://github.com/yitzchak/common-lisp-jupyter
2021-02-13T03:39:26Z waleee-cl: out of curiosity why did you start with clisp?
2021-02-13T03:39:52Z matthewcroughan: that's just what happens when you google lisp.
2021-02-13T03:40:00Z matthewcroughan: I had no idea about these sbcl/abcl/everythings
2021-02-13T03:40:02Z waleee-cl: for you possibly
2021-02-13T03:40:18Z matthewcroughan: reminds me of Forth, how there are many variations upon forth, there are many forhts.
2021-02-13T03:40:19Z Josh_2: they are different distributions of Common Lisp
2021-02-13T03:40:19Z matthewcroughan: forths*
2021-02-13T03:40:37Z Josh_2: like Gentoo/Fedora/Ubuntu are different distributions of Linux etc
2021-02-13T03:41:01Z matthewcroughan: I don't want a development environment. I want to submit some bytes via UDP to an ip address.
2021-02-13T03:41:09Z matthewcroughan: If I can't do that in a lisp repl, what is it good for? :D
2021-02-13T03:41:50Z matthewcroughan: I will use vlime and perhaps even package it if I take a liking to lisp, but this can't be the way.
2021-02-13T03:42:01Z waleee-cl: matthewcroughan:  you do realize that it's some work in most full featured programming languages?
2021-02-13T03:42:34Z matthewcroughan: No, it's not. You can just bang it out from memory. The MQTT protocol isn't complex, sure you won't implement the WHOLE thing.
2021-02-13T03:42:35Z waleee-cl: (eg python)
2021-02-13T03:43:14Z matthewcroughan: you could craft the packet necessary to submit to an ip address to contain bytes that resolve to the string "NO" in MQTT, then send it over UDP, in no time.
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2021-02-13T03:43:32Z Josh_2: yes you could do that in no time in CL
2021-02-13T03:43:50Z matthewcroughan: well how can we ping?
2021-02-13T03:43:57Z matthewcroughan: I can't really get any of the basic examples working.
2021-02-13T03:44:36Z Josh_2: Make sure to tell your buddy to check out portacle
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2021-02-13T03:44:42Z matthewcroughan: https://orthecreedence.github.io/cl-async/benchmarks
2021-02-13T03:46:03Z matthewcroughan: I can't believe we were defeated.
2021-02-13T03:46:39Z Josh_2: if you know how MQTT is implemented you could just craft the packets manually
2021-02-13T03:46:54Z matthewcroughan: I sorta do, I may take some time in future.
2021-02-13T03:47:17Z matthewcroughan: I really just wanted to demonstrate that he indeed can't do certain things in LISP, because libraries don't necessarily exist for everything, because it's not "that kind" of language.
2021-02-13T03:47:27Z matthewcroughan: Because he talks as if everything is possible with LISP.
2021-02-13T03:47:33Z Josh_2: well everything is possible
2021-02-13T03:47:36Z Josh_2: It's turing complete
2021-02-13T03:47:43Z matthewcroughan: Sure, I just mean within my lifespan.
2021-02-13T03:47:56Z matthewcroughan: Microsoft Powerpoint is turing complete.
2021-02-13T03:48:13Z Josh_2: the library might not work properly but I saw someone had implemented a functioning MQTT client in Racket in 200 lines, converted that to CL wouldn't be hard
2021-02-13T03:48:29Z Josh_2: Sending data over a network isn't very hard
2021-02-13T03:48:43Z matthewcroughan: well, can you give me an example that does *anything* over the network from the sbcl repl?
2021-02-13T03:49:09Z Josh_2: well if you were using Vlime ie Vim with Slime then that communication is done over a local socket
2021-02-13T03:49:20Z Bike: sbcl comes with a bsd sockets system.
2021-02-13T03:49:38Z Josh_2: you could just (ql:quickload :dexador) (dex:get "https://google.co.uk")
2021-02-13T03:49:49Z Bike: i've never used it myself, but my understanding is it's a pretty thin wrapper over the berkeley API.
2021-02-13T03:50:04Z Bike: probably you could push bytes or whatever with that.
2021-02-13T03:50:10Z Josh_2: or just use usocket
2021-02-13T03:50:42Z contrapunctus: What's the Lispy way of determining if an optional system is available, i.e. installed?
2021-02-13T03:51:39Z Josh_2: put it in your :depends-on in your asd that way it'll be loaded when you load your library with quicklisp :P
2021-02-13T03:52:31Z contrapunctus: Josh_2: lol, _optional system_ - both systems work with as well as without each other.
2021-02-13T03:52:34Z Bike: contrapunctus: you could do (asdf:component-loaded-p (asdf:find-system whatever))
2021-02-13T03:52:39Z matthewcroughan: (CFFI::FL-ERROR "Unable to load any of the alternatives:~%   ~S" ("libssl.so.1.1" "libssl.so.1.0.2m" "libssl.so.1.0.2k" "libssl.so.1.0.2" "libssl.so.1.0.1l" "libssl.so.1.0.1j" "libssl.so.1.0.1f" "libssl.so.1.0.1e" "libssl.so.1.0.1" "libssl.so.1.0.0q" "libssl.so.1.0.0" "libssl.so.0.9.8ze" ...))
2021-02-13T03:52:43Z Bike: oh, like that. i don't think sbcl wants to do those.
2021-02-13T03:52:47Z Bike: er, asdf.
2021-02-13T03:53:04Z contrapunctus: 🤔
2021-02-13T03:54:38Z Bike: matthewcroughan: so you don't have libssl installed?
2021-02-13T03:55:24Z Bike: seriously though, if you want to do some low level udp whatever you should probably use usocket or sb-bsd-sockets or something. you don't need SSL for that.
2021-02-13T03:56:19Z Josh_2: Usocket is reasonable, but you aren't going to get anywhere just copying and pasting commands into the sbcl terminal repl
2021-02-13T03:56:37Z Josh_2: and I really hope that isn't how your mate is interacting with his lisp image, he needs to install slime and use that
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2021-02-13T04:01:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-02-13T04:01:30Z Josh_2: Hey beach
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2021-02-13T04:02:01Z matthewcroughan: beach: Hi, I'm a skeleton. I've been blasted by the light of Lisp, nothing left but a stump here.
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2021-02-13T04:03:01Z matthewcroughan: Bike: how does sbcl try to find libssl?
2021-02-13T04:03:08Z matthewcroughan: it just isn't finding it on my system.
2021-02-13T04:04:19Z matthewcroughan: do I really have to strace sbcl? ;D
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2021-02-13T04:06:41Z matthewcroughan: no answers! aaaaa
2021-02-13T04:06:52Z matthewcroughan: http://simonsoftware.se/xkcdsw/comic.php?id=81
2021-02-13T04:07:48Z Josh_2: No answers because you are still just copying and pasting into the SBCL repl
2021-02-13T04:07:53Z Josh_2: and I have to go to sleep because It's 4am
2021-02-13T04:08:36Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: Well yeah, because I can't figure out how to load things into the repl, I just copy and paste the deffun, what's wrong with that?
2021-02-13T04:08:55Z matthewcroughan: I want to load code that other people have written so that I can execute their functions. What exactly is wrong with that?
2021-02-13T04:11:20Z Josh_2: *sigh*
2021-02-13T04:12:21Z matthewcroughan: Are you telling me this is not exactly a repl? But something strange that you're trying to get me not to use because it's a bit of a lie?
2021-02-13T04:13:00Z Josh_2: yes what you are interacting with is a repl but It's got no arms, no legs and no eyes
2021-02-13T04:13:11Z matthewcroughan: I really wish `sbcl` would find libssl..
2021-02-13T04:13:32Z matthewcroughan: and that vlime was packaged for any distribution, at all
2021-02-13T04:14:11Z Josh_2: well emacs is the "goto" for writing Lisp, you can just install slime with elpa
2021-02-13T04:14:57Z Josh_2: But some folks use vlime
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2021-02-13T04:15:31Z matthewcroughan: do I really have to worry about what text editor I'm using just for this language?
2021-02-13T04:15:36Z matthewcroughan: that is really especially screwed up
2021-02-13T04:15:46Z matthewcroughan: is it a language, or is it an operating system?
2021-02-13T04:15:55Z Josh_2: uh
2021-02-13T04:16:03Z Josh_2: uuuuh
2021-02-13T04:16:28Z matthewcroughan: No really. I'm very alienated. Why can't I just write and run lisp?
2021-02-13T04:16:32Z matthewcroughan: It's such a strange world.
2021-02-13T04:16:45Z matthewcroughan: There's so much context necessary to even "run" lisp code.
2021-02-13T04:16:49Z Josh_2: normie programming is write, execute, debug repeat
2021-02-13T04:17:10Z Josh_2: It's perfectly possible to write CL like that but you are wasting your time and missing the point
2021-02-13T04:17:10Z matthewcroughan: If you bothered to look into Nix, it's a functional language and I love it.
2021-02-13T04:17:23Z matthewcroughan: But this is something else.
2021-02-13T04:18:42Z matthewcroughan: Josh_2: okay, mirror the statement.
2021-02-13T04:18:48Z matthewcroughan: "normie programming is write, execute, debug repeat"
2021-02-13T04:18:57Z matthewcroughan: "lisp programming is ... ... ... "
2021-02-13T04:19:08Z Josh_2: you are using CL like that and wondering why It's all screwy
2021-02-13T04:19:22Z matthewcroughan: sure, so what *is* the right way to use it?
2021-02-13T04:19:28Z matthewcroughan: please don't suggest a text editor change ;D
2021-02-13T04:19:43Z Josh_2: Interactively
2021-02-13T04:19:57Z matthewcroughan: please mirror the statement, "lisp programming is write ... ... "
2021-02-13T04:20:13Z matthewcroughan: if normie programming is "write, execute, debug, repeat", what is lisp?
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2021-02-13T04:20:41Z Josh_2: It's incremental design where you interact with the program and modify it while it runs
2021-02-13T04:21:03Z Josh_2: you write your little algorithms, check they work, change them while the execute etc
2021-02-13T04:21:35Z Josh_2: put your pieces together, change parts in and out, inspect things in the debugger while they are being used, interact with the stack trace etc
2021-02-13T04:22:50Z matthewcroughan: yeah I did understand some of that, as the program was running if I put something on the stack it would be as if it had hit a breakpoint and I could either continue or exit
2021-02-13T04:22:56Z Josh_2: yes
2021-02-13T04:22:57Z matthewcroughan: much like forth, honestly, in some ways
2021-02-13T04:23:06Z matthewcroughan: but forth is far more intuitive than this
2021-02-13T04:23:44Z Josh_2: if you use Vlime you will be able to properly interact with it, you will be able to inspect the frames on the stack, copy the objects that were arguments to functions to your repl etc
2021-02-13T04:23:55Z Josh_2: I've never used forth so I don't have an opinion
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2021-02-13T04:26:56Z matthewcroughan: Fair enough. I will experiment with it at some stage, tomorrow maybe. With a friend to hold my hand and squeeze it when I get stressed.
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2021-02-13T04:28:52Z Bike: "how does sbcl try to find libssl" dlopen, same as anything else
2021-02-13T04:29:58Z matthewcroughan: Bike: not quite, I'm using nix so it's probably trying something weird. Nix usually finds these oddities.
2021-02-13T04:30:38Z matthewcroughan: So for example, Firefox/Chromium will work fine and they'll find libssl in a nix-shell, but sbcl doesn't, because some programs just work differently in a so-called "impure" way that resolve these paths strangely.
2021-02-13T04:30:56Z Josh_2: well that library is looking for certain versions
2021-02-13T04:31:01Z matthewcroughan: I'll explain it when I'm less tired :D
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2021-02-13T04:43:43Z Bike: sbcl definitely uses dlopen. whether dlopen is doing something weird on nix i can't tell you.
2021-02-13T04:44:10Z Bike: firefox and chromium and stuff might be linked less dynamically
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2021-02-13T04:46:32Z Bike: dynamic dependencies might not work so well with nix's whole model
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2021-02-13T06:24:31Z contrapunctus: Weird, I was able to load my system "foo" just fine until yesterday, and today ASDF says "package FOO-TESTS does not exist" 🤔
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2021-02-13T06:39:30Z contrapunctus: Can anyone say if there's something wrong with these system definitions? https://ix.io/2Pfb
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2021-02-13T06:42:58Z beach: I get an error for that link.
2021-02-13T06:43:26Z beach: SSL received a record that exceeded the maximum permissible length.
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2021-02-13T06:53:57Z contrapunctus: beach: thanks for looking. Here's another - https//:paste.debian.net/1185306
2021-02-13T06:54:13Z contrapunctus: Oh wow. https://paste.debian.net/1185306 -_-
2021-02-13T06:55:42Z beach: I see no system "foo".
2021-02-13T06:56:22Z contrapunctus: beach: "skylab" in this case
2021-02-13T06:56:47Z contrapunctus: ASDF says "package SKYLAB-TESTS does not exist"
2021-02-13T06:57:18Z beach: Well, in order to load this file, that package must exist.
2021-02-13T06:57:42Z beach: Because you have a symbol SKYLAB-TESTS:SETUP-TEST-GIT-REPO in it.
2021-02-13T06:58:37Z beach: I am betting that package is created as part of the SKYLAB/TESTS system, maybe?
2021-02-13T06:58:47Z contrapunctus: It is
2021-02-13T06:59:04Z beach: So it must exist before it can be created.
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2021-02-13T07:02:27Z jedii: is there a lisp operaing system with a working web browser?
2021-02-13T07:02:32Z jedii: runs on amd64?
2021-02-13T07:02:57Z beach: contrapunctus: Do you see the problem?
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2021-02-13T07:07:13Z beach: jedii: I think Mezzano would be the only candidate, but I don't know about web browsers.
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2021-02-13T07:23:14Z beach feels ignored.
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2021-02-13T07:29:17Z jedii: heh
2021-02-13T07:29:22Z jedii: I'm back
2021-02-13T07:29:30Z jedii: how about a lisp web browser
2021-02-13T07:30:15Z jedii: honeslt I think people need about 3% ofHTML
2021-02-13T07:30:24Z jedii: not sure about HTML5
2021-02-13T07:30:34Z jedii: mayben that is a new model
2021-02-13T07:33:53Z beach: There is the Closure web browser that is pure Lisp, and there is Nyxt that uses foreign-code libraries.
2021-02-13T07:34:13Z beach: But Closure has not been maintained for some time, so I don't know the state of it.
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2021-02-13T07:35:45Z beach: Both operating systems and web browsers are non-trivial things.
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2021-02-13T07:36:31Z beach: Instead of a web browser, I would like to see collaborating modules for various rendering tasks.
2021-02-13T07:36:49Z beach: But that's not what you are asking, so never mind.
2021-02-13T07:37:05Z beach: contrapunctus: Did you faint?
2021-02-13T07:38:24Z beach: jedii: What is the reason for your questions?
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2021-02-13T07:49:39Z jedii: I want to replace linux and firefox if possible
2021-02-13T07:51:18Z beach: We are working on it, but it will take some time.
2021-02-13T07:51:24Z beach: You can help out if you like.
2021-02-13T07:53:03Z jedii: ok
2021-02-13T07:53:20Z jedii: ive never done a browser b4
2021-02-13T07:53:59Z beach: I would do one rendering module at a time.
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2021-02-13T08:03:15Z contrapunctus: beach: sort of, thanks for the pointer; I went looking at the system definitions of some libraries, and for the moment I'm thinking of putting the test-running form at the end of skylab-test.lisp itself
2021-02-13T08:03:16Z contrapunctus: ..."sort of" for "do you see the problem", not "did you faint" lol
2021-02-13T08:04:16Z beach: OK.  The problem is that when the reader reads the ASDF file, it sees that symbol and tries to intern it into the package of the prefix, but the package does not exist.  It's that simple.
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2021-02-13T08:04:55Z beach: You can't submit a symbol with a package prefix to the reader unless the package exists.
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2021-02-13T08:08:21Z Guest57554: hi guys.
2021-02-13T08:08:42Z Guest57554: i am trying to get quicklisp to install clog and then just run the first demo.
2021-02-13T08:09:58Z Guest57554: i tried it on 3 different debian instances, clean sbcl / ql installs and i keep on getting feedback from the debugger that something is wrong.  too noob to understand what the compiler wants, mostly i think this is an issue with quicklisp and not clog because everyone else can get clog installed just fine and then loaded just fine
2021-02-13T08:10:20Z Guest57554: i have my issue and debugger data in the following ticket: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/issues/25
2021-02-13T08:11:21Z Guest57554: if anyone has a moment to take a peek at the debugger messages and give me a hint on what to google, i would appreciate it.
2021-02-13T08:11:29Z beach: Are you sure you are supposed to do RUN-TUTORIAL?
2021-02-13T08:11:56Z Guest57554: according to the instructions on this page, apparently yes:  https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog
2021-02-13T08:12:15Z Guest57554: its in the first bit of that wiki page
2021-02-13T08:13:30Z pranavats: I think Quicklisp has an older version of clog.
2021-02-13T08:13:41Z beach: My guess would be that the version of Clog in Quicklisp is too old.
2021-02-13T08:13:45Z beach: Heh.
2021-02-13T08:13:46Z Guest57554: ohhhhhhhhhh ... oh!
2021-02-13T08:13:53Z Guest57554: damnit i shoudl have guessed.  my thanks!
2021-02-13T08:13:59Z pranavats: In the newest version from the repo there's start-tutorial
2021-02-13T08:13:59Z beach: Sure.
2021-02-13T08:14:20Z beach: pranavats: "start" or "run"?
2021-02-13T08:14:29Z Guest57554: he even says to download via git.  i'm an idiot
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2021-02-13T08:14:58Z beach: Don't beat yourself up.
2021-02-13T08:15:09Z beach: It happens.
2021-02-13T08:15:17Z pranavats: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/01-tutorial.lisp
2021-02-13T08:15:17Z pranavats: beach: ^^ The tutorial file exports start-tutorial, I used that.
2021-02-13T08:15:28Z beach: OK.
2021-02-13T08:15:36Z beach: Just checking against the README.
2021-02-13T08:17:11Z pranavats: Here's the tutorial readme file: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/README.md
2021-02-13T08:18:10Z Guest57554: aha!
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2021-02-13T08:18:20Z Guest57554: that was it.  i really appreciate the heads up on that.
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2021-02-13T08:22:55Z Guest57554: my apologies about that, getting used to apple magicpad + new driver for it.
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2021-02-13T09:13:38Z contrapunctus: Hm, so given a pathname or namestring, I want to get components like basename, extension, containing directory etc. Is there an established library for this? I'm looking at the UIOP reference, but it's not clear if it does this.
2021-02-13T09:17:48Z pve: contrapunctus: you might start with the cl:pathname-* and the *-namestring functions
2021-02-13T09:18:16Z pve: those should give you extension and directory at least
2021-02-13T09:18:30Z pve: basename too, actually
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2021-02-13T09:20:44Z contrapunctus: pve: oh thanks, that's nice. I'll add that to the cookbook, I guess.
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2021-02-13T09:24:21Z pve: your personal cookbook?
2021-02-13T09:25:34Z contrapunctus: The cl-cookbook lol
2021-02-13T09:26:05Z contrapunctus: Oh, I missed that it mentions acquiring the file extension, at least.
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2021-02-13T09:26:38Z pve: oh ok
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2021-02-13T10:29:01Z adlai: was it really that painful to include an implicit progn inside time !?
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2021-02-13T11:21:29Z alanz_: I am working through the sly manual example for snippets, and get this exception https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/SFS27lgT/
2021-02-13T11:21:51Z alanz_: I am probably doing something simple wrong. Any hints?
2021-02-13T11:23:56Z beach: It looks like you are attempting an arithmetic operation on a list or a struct.
2021-02-13T11:24:56Z beach: alanz_: Oh, and Common Lisp does not have "exceptions".  It has "conditions".  The difference is very important, as phoe would tell you.
2021-02-13T11:25:21Z alanz_: sorry, I struggled with the word choice, now I know
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2021-02-13T11:26:44Z alanz_: beach, the section in the manual is where you highlight parts of the code with "Stickers", which I presume do some sort of tracing.So it is a wrapper around the original argument. I suspect some sort of hook is not being called
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2021-02-13T11:29:07Z beach: alanz_: You could look at the backtrace to get a better idea of what's going on.
2021-02-13T11:30:47Z alanz_: beach, thanks, this is an opportunity for me to learn, I will see what I can find
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2021-02-13T11:35:49Z alanz_: beach, FYI, I tried to apply a sticker to a variable substition in a macro, When I removed that, it works. I wondered about it at the time.
2021-02-13T11:36:31Z beach: OK.  I am not familiar with SLY, so I don't know what that means.  Sorry.
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2021-02-13T11:38:53Z alanz_: no problem.  I think it is wrapping selected code with a statistics-gathering function. And that process is not able to be expanded in a macro.  But I am in a happy place again, continuing the tutorial
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2021-02-13T12:28:10Z JeromeLon: Is there a way to know on which line a form was read after a load? I wrote a DSL, and I want to surface errors (and their line number) at a later analysis stage
2021-02-13T12:32:45Z edgar-rft: JeromeLon: built-in no, because Lisp reads code as "forms", meaning opening and closing parens like (...code...), it doesn't count line breaks internally
2021-02-13T12:35:54Z phoe: JeromeLon: one second
2021-02-13T12:36:24Z phoe: during macroexpansion, https://github.com/scymtym/trivial-with-current-source-form
2021-02-13T12:37:00Z phoe: I think you can save this information by macroexpanding into something that contains this data and memorizing it in your objects
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2021-02-13T12:43:33Z JeromeLon: phoe: interesting, thanks. It doesn't seem to know about line numbers, but it detects the original form indeed.
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2021-02-13T12:45:06Z JeromeLon: surely the reader knows about the current line number, as the compiler does use line numbers in error messages, so if I could access it at macro expansion time, I could indeed store it somewhere
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2021-02-13T12:47:06Z nij: Hello! If the function in a thread returns 1, how can I ask the thread to kill itself? Or should I make another thread that monitors and does the kill?
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2021-02-13T12:50:04Z phoe: what do you mean, kill?
2021-02-13T12:50:25Z phoe: just structure the thread function in a way that if 1 is returned, then the function returns
2021-02-13T12:51:07Z phoe: or if you can't do that in an easy way, use a non-local return - either GO/RETURN-FROM if you can do that lexically, or CATCH/THROW if you really really need it
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2021-02-13T12:56:47Z nij: By kill I mean destroy.. hmm.. you mean if the thread function returns correctly, then the thread terminates automatically? That make sense.. but why didn't my threads terminate themselves at midnight?
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2021-02-13T12:57:43Z adlai looks, for a few deep breaths, and the "| offtopic --> #lispcafe" suffix; and then asks,
2021-02-13T12:58:13Z adlai: are toplevel macrolets containing only a single defmethod one of the roots of evil?
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2021-02-13T12:59:15Z adlai: the only reason to kill&yank this macrolet to toplevel is to reduce column width of its body
2021-02-13T12:59:31Z nij: Ah I see.. my thread function did encounter an error, but it raises a condition. Usually, if I'm in front of my machine, I can choose manually for it to abort. But while I'm not there, it keeps staying there.
2021-02-13T13:00:07Z adlai: don't worry, eventually the power company handles those
2021-02-13T13:00:07Z nij: What should I do? Is #'ignore-errors safe to use?
2021-02-13T13:00:36Z nij: adlai: I run that every ten minutes, and they clutter my machine. Every morning it's freakin' hot.
2021-02-13T13:00:49Z nij: It will kill my machine soon if no action is taken :-(
2021-02-13T13:01:17Z carkh: easy, handle the error
2021-02-13T13:01:25Z carkh: even if it's to ignore it =)
2021-02-13T13:01:31Z adlai: in the scenario you described, ignore-errors will prevent that thread from lurking in the debugger
2021-02-13T13:01:48Z nij: lemme try it :D
2021-02-13T13:01:54Z carkh: leave a nice comment for future you
2021-02-13T13:02:09Z nij: carkh: Oh! There's #'handler-case
2021-02-13T13:02:18Z carkh: ;; i'm evil, but not quite top-level macrolet evil
2021-02-13T13:02:35Z adlai: however, you must take care that whatever form is wrapped can return NIL without the caller entering the debugger with a similar error, because then you've accomplished nothing
2021-02-13T13:03:23Z adlai: e.g., one of my favorite macros is `(or (ignore-errors ,@body) 0), it brings CL one step closer to the bastard child of Haskell and PHP
2021-02-13T13:08:26Z carkh: when i started programming i had many of those (back then) try catch (nothing) and continue, they somehow completelly disapeared fromthe code i write today
2021-02-13T13:08:54Z carkh: i think there should never be a reason to do that
2021-02-13T13:09:13Z carkh: if you can't handle the error, just let it go up the stack
2021-02-13T13:09:26Z adlai: maybe monads will help?
2021-02-13T13:09:56Z carkh: or at least log the error or something
2021-02-13T13:10:33Z adlai: oh look, I found a use for modern mode: distinguishing between "maybe monads [will help?]" and "Maybe monads [won't help!]"
2021-02-13T13:10:33Z carkh: yes well mondads can be used for that, but we don't neeed those here in CL i think ?
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2021-02-13T13:11:21Z adlai: the Maybe monad is just (deftype maybe (type) `(or null ,type))
2021-02-13T13:11:40Z adlai: and honestly, I consider it one of the worst code smells in existence
2021-02-13T13:12:30Z carkh: monads are cool for pure functional stuff
2021-02-13T13:12:49Z carkh: then again i wouldn't go purely functional with CLL
2021-02-13T13:12:53Z carkh: CL
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2021-02-13T13:13:10Z adlai: it is a much worse root, of a much greater evil, than top-level single-form macrolets; i'd toss it somewhere around screensavers that surreptitiously test whether the user is colorblind
2021-02-13T13:13:15Z nij: i see, that's nice suggestion (the error handling part)
2021-02-13T13:13:29Z nij: (but why isn't maybe monad good @@?)
2021-02-13T13:14:15Z carkh: there was a talk from Rich Hickey about that i think
2021-02-13T13:14:15Z adlai: it's a root of evil because its use reduces the expressiveness of the type system in particular, and the code in general
2021-02-13T13:14:17Z nij: Anyway.. threads are mysterious for me. I have another mysterious thread, which doesn't come up while sbcl runs.. but it afterward shows up.. sometimes even in multiple instance. It has been eating my machine's resource secretly.
2021-02-13T13:14:50Z nij: Here is an inspection did by sly: https://bpa.st/DWGQ , and here is a report after interrupting it by #'break : https://bpa.st/2DRQ
2021-02-13T13:15:13Z adlai: consider the much better, although more complex: (defmacro define-maybe-extension (type &optional name) #|have fun!|#)
2021-02-13T13:15:42Z nij: Question is.. how do I go on and see what it really is? I asked in #clschool yesterday, and it seems that there's no way to see what the thread function is, and even the start time and end-time.
2021-02-13T13:15:55Z carkh: nij: mhh what project are working on with sound ?
2021-02-13T13:16:07Z nij: No it's just a mysterious thread.
2021-02-13T13:16:20Z nij: I don't know what it is. Now I want to know what it is..
2021-02-13T13:17:14Z carkh: well ti's obviously sound related =)
2021-02-13T13:17:43Z nij: Can't we see more? Why by default we cannot get our hands on the thread function?
2021-02-13T13:18:48Z nij: I mean.. why isn't there #'thread-function so that (thread-function (make-thread #'func)) => #'func
2021-02-13T13:19:15Z adlai: your lisp compiler doesn't show this in the inspector?
2021-02-13T13:19:35Z nij: Show.. what ?
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2021-02-13T13:19:52Z adlai: try (mapc 'describe (bt:all-threads))
2021-02-13T13:20:12Z adlai: it might print the fully qualified slot name of the initial function
2021-02-13T13:20:33Z adlai: along with the name of various specific ones of those functions, if they weren't anonymous
2021-02-13T13:21:00Z nij: Nope, it's given here: https://bpa.st/DWGQ
2021-02-13T13:21:41Z carkh: it has a name, maybe grep the source code ?
2021-02-13T13:22:02Z nij: Isn't that weird? I consider "initial-function", "start-time", "end-time" the basic components of a thread that should be inspectable.
2021-02-13T13:22:20Z nij: carkh: what do you mean :O ?
2021-02-13T13:22:39Z carkh: your thread is named "Mixer thread 44,100 Hz"
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2021-02-13T13:22:57Z carkh: search yoru source code for "Mixer Thread"
2021-02-13T13:23:32Z carkh: probably in some sound related library you loaded directly or inderctly
2021-02-13T13:23:37Z carkh: indirectly
2021-02-13T13:23:43Z nij: hmm lemme see
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2021-02-13T13:30:38Z contrapunctus: Any library for CL which makes paths behave like they do in the UNIX shell and in other Lisps? 🤔 The behavior has been very unpleasantly surprisingly so far.
2021-02-13T13:30:59Z nij: OH It's from a package called MIXALOT :(
2021-02-13T13:31:01Z Xach: contrapunctus: what do you mean?
2021-02-13T13:31:04Z nij: I don't even recall having it.
2021-02-13T13:31:35Z Xach: contrapunctus: what's an example of differing behavior that has unpleasantly surprised you?
2021-02-13T13:33:40Z contrapunctus: Xach: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/sRFpqjktnp/
2021-02-13T13:35:03Z Xach: contrapunctus: *default-pathname-defaults* is the key there.
2021-02-13T13:35:07Z adlai: nij: CL threads usually have some dynamic context, too; and "time can be a disaster", so careful with that expectation
2021-02-13T13:35:45Z Xach: contrapunctus: it is much more useful than the notion of a process cwd, but it *is* different. so when i care about them staying in sync, i use something like (with-working-directory path <body>), which sets both the cwd and *default-pathname-defaults*
2021-02-13T13:35:57Z adlai: nij: in some implementations, you can change the binding of a special variable that another thread sees, without needing to interrupt.
2021-02-13T13:37:24Z adlai: it is arguably safer, or at least more polite, to use e.g. #'bordeaux-threads:interrupt-thread for that, so the bindings are modified by the referencing thread
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2021-02-13T13:37:53Z nij: hmm sounds like it relates to that "functions are hard to serialize"
2021-02-13T13:37:53Z yottabyte: equwal: if memory serves, drakma doesn't work if you're using query parameters and a request body simultaneously
2021-02-13T13:38:09Z yottabyte: which is actually a problem in puri I think
2021-02-13T13:39:50Z Xach: contrapunctus: it's fair to say you don't like it, but it need not be surprising, and it isn't without its advantages.
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2021-02-13T13:48:16Z contrapunctus: Xach: thanks for your response, I guess I'll explore it in greater depth instead of impetuously writing a new path API as I was thinking 😄 I suppose it can be advantageous, but it was definitely "wtf" for me - completely contrary to the behavior I've come to expect in Guile, CHICKEN, or Elisp.
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2021-02-13T13:51:00Z adlai wonders whether the (list* "public" "domain" paths) horseshoe increases the effectiveness of unlicensing
2021-02-13T13:53:16Z adlai also curses himself for being slightly too amnesiac with his repl history, and losing the throwaway code that was the beginnings of a "licensing paralegal" addon
2021-02-13T13:55:06Z adlai: despite being almost entirely built on top of asdf, it was aimed to exist at the level of a quicklisp addon, since asdf itself is probably too low-level to ask much beyond whether source code is loadable.
2021-02-13T13:56:11Z adlai does not, currently, recall using any symbols from outside CL and ASDF other than ql:system-apropos
2021-02-13T13:58:39Z Lycurgus: unlicensing? sounds like removing license files
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2021-02-13T13:59:41Z Lycurgus: bold soldiering if so
2021-02-13T14:00:21Z adlai: it could be parsed thus, although there's also a license that is named "Unlicense", for cases where an author wants to explicitly designate that something is public domain
2021-02-13T14:01:24Z adlai: merely unlinking license files and deleting copyright lines can result in people wasting lots of time trying to figure out who wrote something, even when they don't intend to comply with clauses in the license
2021-02-13T14:01:24Z Lycurgus: ah
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2021-02-13T14:01:49Z nij: Oh no.. I just upgraded sbcl system-wise, and now my wm breaks :-(
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2021-02-13T14:02:22Z adlai: so don't recompile stumpwm every ten minutes!
2021-02-13T14:03:00Z nij: "#<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "file "/usr/lib/sbcl/contrib/sb-bsd-sockets.fsl" {1002ACC963}> is a fasl file compiled with SBCL 2.1.1, and can't be loaded into SBCL 2.0.11..
2021-02-13T14:03:38Z Lycurgus upgraded to 2.1.1 and thought it broke ql but it didn
2021-02-13T14:04:25Z adlai: it's arguably even a good idea to have separate versions of the CL implementation for something as fundamental as the window manager. I could probably brick my stumpwm install with certain updates, although it does not default to using the latest compilers unless I manually recompile.
2021-02-13T14:05:27Z adlai: nij: you're using a system-supplied stumpwm package?
2021-02-13T14:05:31Z nij: It's weird.. now I have sbcl 2.1.1.. but seems that stumpwm is trying to use 2.0.11?
2021-02-13T14:05:59Z nij: adlai: I will heavily consider keeping my own implementation after solving this disaster.
2021-02-13T14:06:02Z nij: xD
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2021-02-13T14:06:36Z adlai: your stumpwm executable is still whichever compiler was used to produce that executable; if it loads libraries from /usr/lib/ ,then it should be the same version as the compiler that places those.
2021-02-13T14:08:31Z nij: I think I compiled stumpwm manually, but forgot if that's the case. At least the system-package manager doesn't register having stumpwm.
2021-02-13T14:08:37Z adlai does not recall encountering a situation where stumpwm loads ~any~ fasls
2021-02-13T14:08:41Z nij: So.. I should recompile my stumpwm?
2021-02-13T14:09:06Z nij: adlai: yeah if I keep my config empty, then nothing bad happened.
2021-02-13T14:09:21Z adlai: right now you can't use it without aligning those versions - either downgrading SBCL, or recompiling stumpwm with the newly installed compiler
2021-02-13T14:09:38Z nij: Currently I have most of them commented, except (ql:quickload '(:pac1 :pac2 ..))
2021-02-13T14:09:52Z adlai is puzzled as to why this is necessary; the stumpwm compilation process should produce a self-contained executable
2021-02-13T14:11:28Z adlai: I recommend that you confirm that is what your build script will produce, before setting yourself up for a situation where you need to recompile the already-working program every time you update the compiler
2021-02-13T14:12:31Z adlai: e.g., SBCL has new releases each month, yet that shouldn't force you to recompile stumpwm each time
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2021-02-13T14:17:06Z mfiano: Welp, optimzed CL (SBCL), is significantly faster than _heavily_ optimized C# (for this particular set of algorithms on this particular hardware).
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2021-02-13T14:45:38Z nij: Even sly doesn't open itself correctly, it has been initiating itself for almost half an hour.
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2021-02-13T14:49:28Z Josh_2: mfiano: doesn't sound like a welp to me
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2021-02-13T15:18:58Z flip214: mfiano: please write that down somewhere and provide a link, I'd like to show people such results
2021-02-13T15:19:39Z mfiano: flip214: pent the last week implementing OpenSimplex2 noise algorithms (6 in total), here are my results: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/cf3f8fa4793a2815d3cec32b78d6fb55
2021-02-13T15:19:45Z mfiano: Spent*
2021-02-13T15:23:15Z Josh_2: Thats significant
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2021-02-13T15:30:40Z mfiano: Yeah and it could likely be a lot faster, since there are a couple that do not use simple-arrays, but simple-vectors
2021-02-13T15:30:42Z Lycurgus: C# hardly surprising;c++ woulda been
2021-02-13T15:31:09Z Lycurgus: *c/c++
2021-02-13T15:33:40Z Lycurgus: unless 'heavily optimized' meant rewritting it for somethihng other than the .net vm
2021-02-13T15:34:53Z mfiano: Heavily optimized means constructing the algorithm, data structures, and types to satisfy the compiler.
2021-02-13T15:35:05Z Lycurgus: k
2021-02-13T15:35:16Z mfiano: I did the same for CL, so it is not a direct comparison, although it is bit-perfect with the reference implementation
2021-02-13T15:36:24Z Lycurgus: is there a CL generally held to be the best performing?
2021-02-13T15:36:42Z Lycurgus: (other than ones that compile to C)
2021-02-13T15:36:54Z mfiano: SBCL
2021-02-13T15:36:56Z Bike: among the free implementations, sbcl has the best optimizing compiler
2021-02-13T15:37:03Z Bike: does better than ecl which compiles to C
2021-02-13T15:37:12Z Lycurgus: great!
2021-02-13T15:37:14Z Bike: optimizing lisp involves different things than optimizing C
2021-02-13T15:37:41Z Lycurgus: yes that's what I made the proviso
2021-02-13T15:38:22Z edgar-rft: C is worsified Lisp :)
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2021-02-13T15:39:10Z mfiano: Some things are faster in CL than C
2021-02-13T15:40:36Z mfiano: Look at cl-ppcre for example, that builds regexps at compile time that outperforms Perl's C implementation of a virtual machine. Also Julia is a dynamic language and holds the current record for terraflops per second on a super computing cluster.
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2021-02-13T15:40:55Z Lycurgus: perl
2021-02-13T15:41:13Z mfiano: The engine is C
2021-02-13T15:41:20Z Lycurgus: how about vs the boost lib?
2021-02-13T15:42:22Z mfiano: It depends on your problem domain
2021-02-13T15:42:26Z mfiano: There is no faster language
2021-02-13T15:43:31Z Josh_2: unless you take an average speed between a variety of problem domains
2021-02-13T15:43:39Z Josh_2: then you will most likely find that python is slow
2021-02-13T15:43:57Z mfiano: and the metrics, and the hardware, and the scheduler, and the...
2021-02-13T15:44:40Z Bike: if you have an average over domains you don't have something that's as useful for evaluating how to solve a particular problem
2021-02-13T15:45:45Z Lycurgus: s/what/why/
2021-02-13T15:46:30Z Bike: not everything needs to be put on a linear scale, you know?
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2021-02-13T15:48:34Z Lycurgus: 'member function points? that used to be a thing. In practice, the labor required to get a thing done generally trumps other considerations
2021-02-13T15:48:51Z Lycurgus: with exceptions
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2021-02-13T16:10:16Z thmprover: Good morning, friends
2021-02-13T16:10:25Z Josh_2: Hi
2021-02-13T16:13:36Z thmprover: Out of curiosity, has anyone written Lisp code which will emit, say, Fortran code, compile it, execute it, then use the results? That is to say, has anyone used such a strategy?
2021-02-13T16:16:39Z beach: What would the use case be?
2021-02-13T16:18:41Z heisig: thmprover: I did something like that, but with C code instead of Fortran code.  I wouldn't recommend it though.
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2021-02-13T16:21:10Z heisig: Foreign function calls and such kind of code loading are quite the pain.  I'd recommend generating Lisp code and using CL:COMPILE instead.
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2021-02-13T16:23:29Z beach: heisig: I didn't get the impression that FFI was involved in the suggestion.
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2021-02-13T16:24:11Z Nilby: beach: I imagine the use case is being be physicist and it's not accepted "proof" for publication if it doesn't use the old fortan math code that nobody understands.
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2021-02-13T16:24:54Z beach: Hmm.
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2021-02-13T16:25:42Z thmprover: beach: I'm working on some climate modeling, and there are a number of variations of a model (a family of families of models) I'd like to investigate, and I may delegate a lot of the work to pre-existing Fortran libraries.
2021-02-13T16:26:09Z beach: thmprover: So why is Common Lisp involved?
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2021-02-13T16:26:12Z thmprover: heisig: interesting to know FFI is tedious, but I was thinking of stand-alone programs.
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2021-02-13T16:27:19Z thmprover: beach: Oh, I've written a lot of CL code already for related computations, and I'm using the results later on in my CL code (or, I would like to)
2021-02-13T16:27:31Z Nilby: Unfortunately Lisp math gets more accurate results, with rationals, contaigin, bignums, etc., so it's wrong.
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2021-02-13T16:29:57Z Nilby: And unlike CS, other sciences doesn't ususally give you much credit for the cool new program that did the maths.
2021-02-13T16:30:44Z thmprover: Nilby: my background is actually in numerical analysis, so you are preaching to the choir :)
2021-02-13T16:31:00Z Nilby: Ahh. :)
2021-02-13T16:31:19Z thmprover: And, unfortunately, I am not smart enough to solve the Navier-Stokes-Fourier equations by hand :(
2021-02-13T16:31:29Z Nilby: Hench perhaps your interest in Lisp.
2021-02-13T16:32:56Z thmprover: Scheme was the first "real" language I learned, CL has better performance without sacrificing, uh, "high-level-ness"
2021-02-13T16:35:03Z adlai: thmprover: it's not a matter of smartness, those are either an open problem, or the kind of tedium that you can attack using any reasonable symbolic algebra system; and CL does have one of those.
2021-02-13T16:35:32Z Nilby: Unfortunately, I did math homework in the computer since the beginning, so I that's all I know.
2021-02-13T16:36:31Z adlai: even the open problem is imprecisely specified; e.g., existence is not an open problem in the context where you are using those equations, only in pathological "let's pretend that #lispcafe is a boundary that is both open and closed" cases
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2021-02-13T16:37:46Z thmprover: adlai: as of present, no CAS is capable enough to solve the equations, it can only be done by numerical methods, specifically via numerical linear algebra. And sadly, CL lacks good numerical linear algebra libraries. (I say this with love.)
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2021-02-13T16:38:36Z adlai: my guess is that if you are going to the trouble of implementing the FORTRAN grammar, you might as well do so using automated tools and the formal specification, rather than writing your writer by hand; and then you might as well leave the parsed algorithms in your IR, rather than keeping yet another compiler in your OODA loop...
2021-02-13T16:39:29Z adlai: I was not suggesting using a CAS for numerical solutions, only for investigating the questions that you don't want to derive manually
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2021-02-13T16:41:10Z adlai: maybe after a few Fields medals that nobody understands, Perelman will get another call after making another impressive step for humanity
2021-02-13T16:41:15Z adlai: maybe not.
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2021-02-13T16:41:33Z Nilby: I used to have a hobby of re-implementing some fortan physics code in Lisp, but I didn't understand what I was doing until a plotted a graph.
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2021-02-13T16:46:46Z thmprover: adlai: ah, I see, in that case I agree with your train of thought about using a CAS for guiding symbolic reasoning. I'd have to take another look at automated tools. I'm still investigating what other routes are available here, so I'm just "thinking out loud" here.
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2021-02-13T16:51:47Z adlai has never heard a positive testimonial from people who actually went ahead with such a strategy, instead of direct FFI
2021-02-13T16:53:16Z thmprover: Yeah, there may be good reason for that! ;)
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2021-02-13T17:02:36Z prxq: adlai: what strategy? I used a lot of f2cl-ed code once uppon a time. Was fine. But I think I might have misunderstood something :-)
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2021-02-13T17:05:24Z prxq: thmprover: I don't know anyone who has used a Fortran compiler as an assembler backend for some other compiler. People have used C a lot for that.
2021-02-13T17:05:45Z prxq: With SBCL it usually isn't worth the hassle. It's pretty fast as it is.
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2021-02-13T17:07:03Z prxq: the main problem with climate models is sensitivity to uncertainty. If you want to end your career quickly check that out and tell your supervisor the results ;)
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2021-02-13T17:09:02Z thmprover: prxq: Regarding Fortran-vs-C, a lot of the numerical linear algebra libraries are written in Fortran (which is what guided my judgement), and a small-but-growing number of C++ libraries which seem competitive.
2021-02-13T17:10:45Z thmprover: Regarding model sensitivity, yeah, it seems like that's a huge part of the field, which is interesting. As a mathematician, I'm more inclined to be skeptical of my own results, and couch any findings in swaths of disclaimers and caveats. (It's also why I'm a terrible salesman.)
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2021-02-13T17:16:05Z fitzsim: is it possible on Debian to install quicklisp system-wide, such that no ~/.sbclrc is needed for a given user, yet still anything installed by the system-wide quicklisp is accessible via asdf:load-system?
2021-02-13T17:17:43Z fitzsim: apt install cl-quicklisp seems to just install /usr/share/common-lisp/source/quicklisp/quicklisp.lisp, but each user still has to set it up, from what I can tell
2021-02-13T17:18:17Z fitzsim: ideally I'd like to do all quicklisp operations system-wide, and have the results available to users via asdf, without per-user configuration
2021-02-13T17:19:28Z fitzsim: just joined #quicklisp in case replies make more sense there
2021-02-13T17:22:13Z Bike: you define an /etc/sbclrc file i think it's loaded by sbcl before the user sbclrc
2021-02-13T17:22:19Z Bike: so you can put the quicklisp load there
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2021-02-13T17:44:57Z etimmons: fitzsim: what do you mean by "do all quicklisp operations system-wide"? It sounds like you want an administrator to ql:quickload things and have the users only use asdf:load-system, but want to make sure
2021-02-13T17:46:37Z prxq: fitzism: if you want to generate code, you can choose your backend. C simply makes more sense, normally, because people know it better.
2021-02-13T17:46:56Z etimmons: There's nothing stopping you from installing quicklisp to a shared folder and loading it in a system wide init file like Bike suggested. But you'll have to get file permissions right if multiple users can quickload and potentially install new systems to the shared folder
2021-02-13T17:51:07Z etimmons: But if you want the more restricted case of a single user installing systems via Quicklisp and making them available, you can probably just configure ASDF system wide to look for systems inside the central quicklisp folder (there are a multitude of ways to do that)
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2021-02-13T18:26:07Z adlai: prxq: once upon a time, for whatever odd reason, I had no carrion luggage on a long flight across the pond and actually read a duty-free catalog, back in the years when those things advertised a turntable that burns CD-ROMs; my guess is that f2cl doesn't get driven in reverse much after it's had its run.
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2021-02-13T19:44:10Z fitzsim: etimmons: re: "... but want to make sure"; that's correct
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2021-02-13T19:44:32Z fitzsim: I guess I thought this would be set up automatically by Debian
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2021-02-13T19:47:01Z fitzsim: unless I reconfigure quicklisp too, I think this'll mean pointing asdf configuration to somewhere under /root/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp
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2021-02-13T19:49:04Z nij: Help.. I upgraded my sbcl this morning and every thing get messed up. I'm unable to return to that state.. so would just fix any error that pops out anyway.
2021-02-13T19:49:31Z nij: Currently, I have trouble connecting to slynk server from emacs.
2021-02-13T19:50:04Z nij: In emacs, running sly and turn on a slynk server port, then `M-x sly-connect` does connect to that server successfully.
2021-02-13T19:50:42Z nij: However, if I run sbcl from terminal, quickload slynk, and open a slynk server with a port, then `M-x sly-connect` doesn't connect to that server correctly.
2021-02-13T19:51:04Z nij: The error from the emacs debugger, while connecting, is given here https://bpa.st/AAUA ..
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2021-02-13T19:58:19Z Bike: nij: the error says (i think) that sly-mrepl--insert-prompt is being called with three arguments when it expects four to five
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2021-02-13T19:58:39Z Bike: nij: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/commit/a0cb30051434be91f8c1889643a77bf218f8b0f5 this fairly recent commit changed what arguments that function takes oh god damn it
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2021-02-13T20:03:23Z nij: OH lemme see!
2021-02-13T20:03:57Z Bike: uh, hopefully you saw my messages i guess
2021-02-13T20:04:05Z Bike: long story short my guess is there's a cache out of wack
2021-02-13T20:04:24Z nij: cache out of wack?
2021-02-13T20:04:31Z Bike: like sbcl from terminal and sbcl from emacs are loading different versions of slynk for whatever reason, i mean
2021-02-13T20:04:55Z Bike: your emacs is using the new one but your terminal sbcl isn't sending it what it expects
2021-02-13T20:05:17Z Bike: maybe it's as simple as ql:update-all-dists, i don't know
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2021-02-13T20:05:46Z nij: lemme try
2021-02-13T20:05:52Z nij: im desperate enough to try anything
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2021-02-13T20:06:32Z Bike: if that doesn't work you'd probably have to finagle sbcl to load the new slynk manually
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2021-02-13T20:06:37Z Bike: which is doable but sort of annoying
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2021-02-13T20:07:30Z nij: It doesn't work.
2021-02-13T20:07:38Z nij: How to check which slynk sbcl runs?
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2021-02-13T20:09:15Z Bike: hm, dunno how to get it problematically. you can use (ql:where-is-system :slynk) and then look at the asd file
2021-02-13T20:09:27Z Bike: s/problematically/programatically/
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2021-02-13T20:10:04Z nij: ! ~/.quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/sly-20210124-git/slynk/"  VS  ~/.emacs.d/.local/straight/repos/sly/slynk/"
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2021-02-13T20:10:22Z Bike: oh. well, that's probably it then
2021-02-13T20:10:27Z nij: I see. I'm using doom, which grabs another piece of slynk to emacs dir.
2021-02-13T20:10:55Z nij almost burst to tears
2021-02-13T20:11:01Z Bike: there's some clever way to configure asdf to find certain systems, but I don't understand it well enough to help you there
2021-02-13T20:11:15Z Bike: i only know the ancient dumbass way, which is (push "/path/to/system" asdf:*central-registry*)
2021-02-13T20:11:46Z Bike: or, if sbcl from emacs works fine, you could figure out what it's doing and copy that
2021-02-13T20:11:47Z fitzsim: Bike: thanks for the suggestion; it looks like Debian's cl-quicklisp package doesn't really support what I want to do without a bunch of extra configuration
2021-02-13T20:11:54Z Bike: no prob
2021-02-13T20:12:08Z fitzsim: so I'll just stick to using quicklisp in per-user home directories
2021-02-13T20:13:26Z nij: lemme try. Sincere thanks from me, Bike.
2021-02-13T20:13:42Z fitzsim: FWIW, Debian's cl-asdf package works the way I was expecting cl-quicklisp to work
2021-02-13T20:13:44Z fitzsim: # apt install cl-<whatever>; $ sbcl ... (require "asdf") (asdf:load-system "whatever")
2021-02-13T20:13:46Z Bike: again, no prob
2021-02-13T20:13:52Z fitzsim: without any ~/.sbcrc or /etc/sbclrc munging
2021-02-13T20:14:02Z Bike: that's good
2021-02-13T20:14:25Z Bike: debian's common lisp packages used to be really annoying so i'm glad they've fixed them up apparently
2021-02-13T20:14:49Z fitzsim: it's just too bad that Debian doesn't have "cl-mcclim" yet
2021-02-13T20:14:59Z fitzsim: (and it's many dependencies)
2021-02-13T20:15:01Z fitzsim: *its
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2021-02-13T20:20:07Z nij: Bike...
2021-02-13T20:20:10Z nij: It werked.
2021-02-13T20:20:16Z nij: Tears out
2021-02-13T20:21:28Z Bike: oh, good.
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2021-02-13T20:23:28Z Bike: it's unfortunate that sly didn't report a version mismatch itself
2021-02-13T20:23:48Z Bike: that might be an interesting feature to add. i think slime/swank has it
2021-02-13T20:24:54Z nij: You mean on quicklisp?
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2021-02-13T20:25:32Z nij: I think doomemacs just pull the latest version by default. It's my fault.. I should have pinned down the version.
2021-02-13T20:25:46Z nij: Now I'm restarting stumpwm and see if I can connect to it from mrepl. Thanks again, very much.
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2021-02-13T20:26:13Z Bike: it's nothing to do with quicklisp. I mean, the emacs sly and the lisp slynk are two different systems that have to communicate, right? so there's a protocol between them. At the start of communication they could compare and make sure they're using the same version of the protocol, and so give you a more comprehensible error like "version mismatch:
2021-02-13T20:26:13Z Bike: sly 3.2 slynk 3.0"
2021-02-13T20:26:39Z Bike: you'd still have to update stuff, but you wouldn't have to dig through emacs's stupid backtraces to understand the problem
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2021-02-13T21:15:16Z adlai: what's the meaning of the symbol names that have more than one consecutive hyphen?
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2021-02-13T21:19:43Z phoe: haven't seen them around CL
2021-02-13T21:24:23Z adlai: I guess it was a typo
2021-02-13T21:25:19Z Nilby`: I think most of the time it means a "minus" that happens to be next to a "hyphen", e.g. SB-KERNEL:TWO-ARG-- SB-VM::FAST---MOD64/FIXNUM=>FIXNUM
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2021-02-13T21:33:48Z mfiano: In elisp, that means it's private, because they lack package qualifiers.
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2021-02-13T21:36:00Z adlai frequently sees such names in emacs tab completion; and has also encountered them occasionally in URLs generated by Coleslaw, so did not assume it was a typo
2021-02-13T21:37:29Z adlai: there is probably no reason to ever use consecutive spacing hyphens in a CL name, given the variety of punctuation that is allowed
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2021-02-13T21:48:38Z warweasle: Hello. Has anyone gotten the e-trade api to work with lisp?
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2021-02-13T21:49:39Z warweasle is having trouble getting cl-oauth to work without knowing anything about oauth.
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2021-02-13T21:58:49Z ralt: Bike: sly/slynk does warn you on version mismatch
2021-02-13T21:59:01Z ralt: At least I've seen it do so for me
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2021-02-13T22:26:27Z Josh_2: When using cl-autowrap how do I get c-include to prefix all function names with <package>?
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2021-02-13T22:29:37Z ralt: (BOUNDP 'symbol) returns NIL for symbols declared with (DEFINE-SYMBOL-MACRO). It feels like a bug, doesn't it?
2021-02-13T22:31:00Z ralt: I guess in theory it's not but... it feels like it should be, when define-symbol-macro is used in practice :/
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2021-02-13T22:43:59Z Bike: the symbol isn't actually bound if it's a macro
2021-02-13T22:44:14Z Bike: even if it is a macro, you can still do (setf (symbol-value 'symbol) whatever) to make it bound, I think
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2021-02-13T22:45:13Z Josh_2: This library I'm trying to wrap with cl-autowrap has 24 header files, do I need a c-include for each one?
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2021-02-13T22:49:36Z Josh_2: seems I can use :include-sources
2021-02-13T22:52:02Z ralt: Bike: thanks for the symbol-value accessor suggestion
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2021-02-13T22:54:43Z Bike: keep in mind that having something as both a symbol macro and a bound variable is really confusing
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2021-02-13T22:56:50Z ralt: Bike: this is in the context of https://gitlab.com/ralt/pvars , where I'm trying to hide away the fact that those are not bound symbols
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2021-02-13T22:59:26Z Bike: i see
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2021-02-13T23:26:07Z Josh_2: Do I have to write like 6 different system definitions to use cffi/c2ffi with 6 different header files?
2021-02-13T23:26:25Z Josh_2: 5 actually
2021-02-13T23:26:56Z Josh_2: this is my first time doing this
2021-02-13T23:27:25Z Josh_2: one of the examples is the sdl bindings and they have a new defsystem for each different .h
2021-02-13T23:33:13Z Josh_2: maybe I can just have 5 components
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2021-02-13T23:42:33Z jasom: Does fare-quasiquote-optima not work anymore?  With the fare-quasiquote readtable, this fails: (optima:match '(1 (2 3) 4 5) (`(a (b ,c) ,@d) (list a b c d)))
2021-02-13T23:42:42Z jasom: with undefined function LIST*P
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2021-02-13T23:52:10Z jasom: switching to trivia works fine, but it would be suboptimal if optima stopped working
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2021-02-14T00:04:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone have an emacs setup that handles #p #. and friends nicely?
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2021-02-14T00:04:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. so that C-M-k treats them as part of the expression
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2021-02-14T04:06:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-02-14T04:06:43Z Lycurgus: moin beach
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2021-02-14T04:21:57Z ebrasca: Good morning #lisp!
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2021-02-14T13:31:11Z cage_: (reposting from #guix) Hi! I am trying using guix for a common lisp software that uses asdf and autotools to build and install the package, i am using gnu-build-system and the process fails the phase when building the executable with sbcl the compiler says that can not find asdf (the CL building system), any idea?
2021-02-14T13:31:53Z cage_: i can see that stumpwm and pgloader are packaged with guix so i hope someone who did that job is here :)
2021-02-14T13:37:24Z mfiano: I don't think Pierre hangs out on IRC
2021-02-14T13:38:06Z mfiano: He is on the Nyxt team though so maybe jmercouris knows
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2021-02-14T13:45:18Z cage_: mfiano, thank you!
2021-02-14T13:45:53Z cage_: abrevar is their nick, is it?
2021-02-14T13:45:59Z mfiano: Ambrevar
2021-02-14T13:46:00Z cage_: *ambrevar
2021-02-14T13:46:06Z cage_: yes, thanks :)
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2021-02-14T13:47:31Z cage_: seems i could be able to reach on the fediverse :)
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2021-02-14T14:13:38Z jmercouris: cage_: you’re best off using his email from his website
2021-02-14T14:18:21Z cage_: jmercouris, thanks! :)
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2021-02-14T14:27:59Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
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2021-02-14T14:28:50Z Josh_2: Im tryna use cffi/c2ffi, I think I have my config correct but when I try to load the system with quicklisp I get an "the file .../spec/olm....spec does not exist"
2021-02-14T14:29:34Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2294#2294
2021-02-14T14:29:55Z cage_: Josh_2, try to ask borodust, he is maintaning a fork IIRC
2021-02-14T14:31:32Z Josh_2: I'm just tryna generate some C bindings automatically
2021-02-14T14:31:35Z borodust: cage_ Josh_2: i'm not maintaining fork of cl-autowrap or cffi-c2ffi
2021-02-14T14:31:46Z cage_: sorry :(
2021-02-14T14:31:56Z borodust: cage_: no problem :)
2021-02-14T14:32:14Z Josh_2: are there docs for claw anywhere?
2021-02-14T14:32:18Z borodust: no
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2021-02-14T14:33:52Z borodust: Josh_2: your best bet for C wrapper autogeneration would be cl-autowrap atm
2021-02-14T14:34:23Z borodust: if you don't mind a bit of manual hinting cffi+groveller might work for you
2021-02-14T14:35:01Z Josh_2: Well this is my first rodeo, I looked at cffi+groveller but cant say I have a clue how it works
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2021-02-14T14:37:03Z Josh_2: I'm trying to bind the megolm v1 library it has like 20 header files (the python library that binds it uses 6)
2021-02-14T14:38:38Z borodust: Josh_2: gimme a link to sources, i can try to generate a wrapper - you then can tune it as you like
2021-02-14T14:39:38Z Josh_2: https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm
2021-02-14T14:40:04Z borodust: lets see
2021-02-14T14:40:41Z Josh_2: The python version which I need to copy only uses olm.h inbound_group_session.h outbout_group_session.h pk.h and sas.h
2021-02-14T14:44:15Z Josh_2: need a tool to convert C/CPP to Common Lisp code :P
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2021-02-14T14:46:07Z Nilby: I am such a tool.
2021-02-14T14:46:17Z Josh_2: Whys that?
2021-02-14T14:47:06Z Nilby: I've done a lot of converting C/C++ to Lisp.
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2021-02-14T14:47:35Z Josh_2: oh right, you can convert olm to CL if you want ;)
2021-02-14T14:53:22Z Josh_2: to be fair the olm library is more the speciality of the folks who wrote Ironclad
2021-02-14T14:54:33Z borodust: Josh_2: here you go: https://github.com/borodust/claw-olm
2021-02-14T14:54:48Z borodust: Josh_2: be careful, i never tested if those actually work ;p
2021-02-14T14:55:37Z borodust: those are generated for linux but if you would only call functions and use pointers to structs you should be safe on other systems too, fork and modify accordingly :)
2021-02-14T14:56:55Z borodust: to load bindings, clone where asdf can find them, and (ql:register-local-projects) (ql:quickload :claw-olm)
2021-02-14T14:57:03Z Josh_2: This is amazing
2021-02-14T14:57:05Z borodust: :claw is not required
2021-02-14T14:57:05Z Josh_2: thank you!
2021-02-14T14:57:09Z borodust: no probs
2021-02-14T14:57:32Z borodust: you can ignore :claw-olm/wrapper system, it is used for actual generation :)
2021-02-14T15:00:20Z borodust: actually, one minor fix incoming ;p
2021-02-14T15:00:33Z borodust: forgot to remove one thing while copypasting
2021-02-14T15:01:55Z borodust: done
2021-02-14T15:05:16Z Josh_2: Thanks, I'll give them a spin now!
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2021-02-14T15:06:38Z borodust: have fun :)
2021-02-14T15:09:23Z Josh_2: ah
2021-02-14T15:09:45Z Josh_2: well I noticed one problem that is my fault because of a spelling error on my part
2021-02-14T15:10:10Z Josh_2: "olm/outbout_group_session.h" is supposed to be "olm/outbound_group_session.h"
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2021-02-14T15:20:29Z Josh_2: borodust: how do I get claw to regenerate the bindings after I have fixed the spelling mistake with the .h?
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2021-02-14T15:37:56Z borodust: Josh_2: you don't :) need to wait for me to regen them
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2021-02-14T15:39:01Z borodust: those bindings are generated by experimental claw branch (w/ cxx support)
2021-02-14T15:39:37Z borodust: err, *by claw from experimental branch
2021-02-14T15:41:45Z Josh_2: Oh I see
2021-02-14T15:41:50Z Josh_2: Sorry for being such a pain :(
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2021-02-14T17:04:27Z jlarocco: Is there etiquette or guidelines for libraries adding values to *features* ?
2021-02-14T17:04:48Z jlarocco: Or best practices
2021-02-14T17:05:35Z borodust: Josh_2: actually, it seems like this header was included from somewhere else and bindings are generated for functions from that header :)
2021-02-14T17:06:15Z borodust: Josh_2: I've pushed typo fix anyway
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2021-02-14T17:09:24Z charles`: Good morning
2021-02-14T17:11:35Z beach: Hello charles`.
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2021-02-14T17:17:02Z Nilby: jlarocco: I think most libraries shouldn't add anything to features. Modern etiquette is that it's for things that widely apply to the whole system, such as the OS version, or the CPU type. To check for things packages you can do find-package, and then something the package provides. And there's other ways to do conditional compilation, e.g. things in the ASD.
2021-02-14T17:17:36Z Nilby: Just my opinion, of course.
2021-02-14T17:20:05Z charles`: clhs read-from-string says that it is affected by none, but isn't it affected by *read-eval*?
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2021-02-14T17:26:47Z Nilby: charles`: I think that's an error in CLHS. It's not in the actual CL specification.
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2021-02-14T17:29:48Z Nilby: One can assume it's affected by at least: *readtable* *read-default-float-format* *read-base* *read-suppress* *package* *read-eval*
2021-02-14T17:31:51Z Nilby: since it says, it's as if "read" is called
2021-02-14T17:36:03Z charles`: I know it isn't official spec, but it is what most people use,
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2021-02-14T17:38:05Z Nilby: charles`: Yes. Good catch. Also it does have side effects. I wonder if anyone dares to update CLHS? But it's true it proably doesn't have any addtional side effects, on top of calling read.
2021-02-14T17:39:21Z Nilby: I actually always look at the draft spec version in emacs info. But it has problems too.
2021-02-14T17:39:53Z charles`: while we are on the topic, is it safe to use read-from-string on user inputted strings as long as *read-eval* is nil?
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2021-02-14T17:40:20Z jlarocco: Nilby: thanks.  I'll look into the ASD conditional compilation.
2021-02-14T17:42:15Z Nilby: charles`: I wouldn't call it safe. It's safer, but not from truely malicious things. You might want to check out https://github.com/phoe/safe-read.
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2021-02-14T18:30:16Z flip214: Is there some kind of stream that accepts ub8 vectors and strings?
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2021-02-14T19:00:30Z nij: Is it possible to define "functions" that have a fixed number of arguments?
2021-02-14T19:00:52Z nij: I want to make currying more native in lisp...
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2021-02-14T19:24:41Z asarch: Take a look: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html
2021-02-14T19:26:45Z nij: Hmm I realize my question doesn't make sense. OF COURSE we can define functions that have a fixed number of arguments.
2021-02-14T19:27:40Z nij: What I intended to ask is this: suppose I have (defun f (x y) (+ x y)).. how do I make (+ 3) return a function?
2021-02-14T19:28:08Z nij: With #'curry I can probably use something like (curry #'+ 3), but that's too long.
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2021-02-14T19:45:10Z charles`: nij what syntax are you looking for? (curry #'+ 3) or (partial #'+ 3) seems pretty short to me
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2021-02-14T19:56:17Z nij: Perhaps.. [+ 3] ?
2021-02-14T19:56:35Z nij: So I can happily run [[+ 3] 4]
2021-02-14T19:57:54Z aeth: nij: How about #y(+ 3) instead? for currY
2021-02-14T19:57:59Z aeth: (C's taken and R's taken)
2021-02-14T19:58:19Z aeth: dispatch reader macro
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2021-02-14T19:59:25Z nij: Ah.. i see it's again an issue of using reader macros. I should look into a list of basic examples of them to get familiar with.
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2021-02-14T19:59:39Z nij: aeth: can't I use []? or some other things like ||?
2021-02-14T20:00:06Z aeth: it's easier to use #<letter>(...) than to use alternatives
2021-02-14T20:00:30Z aeth: the only problem is that you'll soon run out of letters!
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2021-02-14T20:01:18Z aeth: The ideal thing to do is to turn #<letter>(...) into (<macro> ...)
2021-02-14T20:01:28Z nij: yeah it's quite sad that we only have ~30 letters
2021-02-14T20:01:48Z nij: However! letters with ({[|$#@%]}) offer as a lot of variations
2021-02-14T20:02:41Z nij: aeth: or we can start using unicodes, as aplers do
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2021-02-14T20:08:36Z flip214: CL-PDF wants to write to a stream that accepts both WRITE-STRING and WRITE-BYTE. How can I get such a stream?
2021-02-14T20:10:18Z aeth: have you tried trivial-gray-streams? Idk if it lets you do it.
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2021-02-14T20:10:47Z aeth: (fundamental-binary-output-stream fundamental-character-output-stream)
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2021-02-14T20:12:54Z flip214: aeth: do you have an example? Do I need to declare my own stream class for that
2021-02-14T20:12:54Z flip214: ?
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2021-02-14T20:16:05Z aeth: flip214: that would be my guess
2021-02-14T20:16:18Z aeth: perhaps someone has provided one if they expect it, though
2021-02-14T20:16:46Z aeth: you could try grepping for inheritance from those two classes if it was implemented the way I think it might be implemented
2021-02-14T20:18:31Z aeth: At the very least, it looks like it's not an error so it looks like it's possible. (defclass foo (trivial-gray-streams:fundamental-binary-output-stream trivial-gray-streams:fundamental-character-output-stream) ())
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2021-02-14T20:19:49Z aeth: All you need to define your own streams, at least afaik, is to put a queue in the object and define the methods described in http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/stream-definition-by-user.html
2021-02-14T20:21:51Z aeth: But if they expect it they probably already have one in mind.
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2021-02-14T20:51:18Z Josh_2: borodust: thanks :)
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2021-02-14T20:51:19Z borodust: o7
2021-02-14T20:53:44Z Josh_2: Now for the annoying part, converting this python code into CL
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2021-02-14T21:36:45Z edgar-rft: Josh_2: I've heard CL is less annoying than one might think :-)
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2021-02-14T21:51:08Z antoszka: ;)
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2021-02-14T21:59:45Z Josh_2: edgar-rft: perhaps
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2021-02-14T22:01:04Z Josh_2: with CFFI I need to pass a void * <var name> to a foreign function, this can just be a pointer to an array or a string right?
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2021-02-14T22:03:27Z Josh_2: In the python code I'm trying to copy they are using ffi.from_buffer(<string as utf8 array>) I don't know what the equivalent is in cffi
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2021-02-14T23:43:37Z jasom: Down to 35 test failures in nyaml
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2021-02-14T23:44:29Z jasom: flip214: search for "bivalent stream"
2021-02-14T23:44:41Z jasom: flip214: sbcl provides these out-of-the-box, not sure if there is a trivial wrapper for them
2021-02-14T23:45:45Z jasom: Josh_2: CFFI wil lautomatically convert a string to a char *, but you need to be careful of your encodings.
2021-02-14T23:47:03Z jasom: Josh_2: it will *not* automatically convert byte arrays IIRC, so you need to allocate foreign storage and copy the array into it.  There is a library (static-vectors?) that lets you allocate lisp vectors that may be directly passed to foreign code without copying.
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2021-02-14T23:49:35Z jasom: Josh_2: https://github.com/jasom/mymongrel2/blob/master/mymongrel2.lisp#L13 this converts *from* foreign to lisp, but you can just flip what's in the SETF and do a foreign-alloc to do the reverse
2021-02-14T23:50:22Z jasom: Josh_2: there is a with-foreign-object macro, but it's bad for large object because it may stack allocate
2021-02-14T23:51:40Z jasom: Josh_2: but with foreign-alloc you'll have to free it yourself
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2021-02-15T00:30:30Z mfiano: Anyone here use the antiquated thing that is structure-object a lot?
2021-02-15T00:30:43Z Xach: mfiano: sort of
2021-02-15T00:30:45Z mfiano: I am running into some difficulty
2021-02-15T00:32:45Z mfiano: I have 2 packages. In package A, I have a structure FOO with 1 slot called BAR. In package B, I have another structure that includes it with (:include a:foo), and this one has a conc-name of nil. When I define the second struct in package B, I get a function redefintion warning, redefining A::BAR and A::(SETF BAR). Is this expected?
2021-02-15T00:35:31Z Xach cannot help sorry
2021-02-15T00:35:43Z mfiano: Package A doesn't even use conc-name NIL
2021-02-15T00:35:57Z mfiano: So unsure how it is created to be redefined...
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2021-02-15T00:39:20Z Xach: mfiano: i don't think i see the same behavior, but maybe i'm not trying it right. do you have a file i could load to try it?
2021-02-15T00:42:01Z mfiano: Xach: I don't have an isolated case, but if you want to try loading my project I'd appreciate any pointers
2021-02-15T00:42:30Z Xach: i can try
2021-02-15T00:42:33Z mfiano: One sec
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2021-02-15T00:50:27Z mfiano: Xach: Sent the link to you in private
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2021-02-15T01:16:58Z charles`: For tail call optimization, are the stack frames still supposed to appear in the debugger?
2021-02-15T01:17:30Z Xach: charles`: no
2021-02-15T01:19:35Z charles`: hmm, I have a recursive function, that I thought was tail call optimization, but it is getting stack overflow (not infinite). How do I go about finding where it can't be optimized.
2021-02-15T01:20:37Z charles`: If I have a (let (...) (recur)), that is still optimizable right?
2021-02-15T01:21:15Z Alfr: charles`, not if you bind special variables.
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2021-02-15T01:22:03Z Xach: charles`: not sure, sorry. it's not something that always happens in Common Lisp even if it is possible.
2021-02-15T01:23:25Z charles`: Alfr, no special binding here, good point though.
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2021-02-15T01:23:59Z charles`: Xach, is that just because of the lack of labor on the compilers?
2021-02-15T01:24:51Z Alfr: charles`, not mandated by the standard. An implementation may choose to never optimize tail calls.
2021-02-15T01:24:59Z Xach: charles`: no. it's because sometimes you don't want it. like if you want all the frames to debug.
2021-02-15T01:25:25Z Xach: In my experience compilers document when it can be done and what settings to use to do it when possible.
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2021-02-15T01:25:43Z Xach: It is not done unconditionally whenever possible in all circumstances.
2021-02-15T01:28:28Z Xach: some compilers do it under the default settings, some do it only under certain compiler settings, and some don't do it under any circumstances.
2021-02-15T01:30:21Z charles`: It seems I must unroll it manually
2021-02-15T01:34:30Z Xach: charles`: can you share the code?
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2021-02-15T01:45:18Z Nilby: The CMU compiler manual says, it can't do tail recursion when there is a special binding, catch or unwind-protect, block or tagbody with a go closure, or when debug quality > 2.
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2021-02-15T02:12:05Z Josh_2: jasom: Thanks for the information!
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2021-02-15T04:01:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-02-15T04:02:03Z fubbiquantz: morning
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2021-02-15T06:59:59Z charles`: can It always be avoided to repeat code in a macro?
2021-02-15T07:00:58Z charles`: I want some code to run and conditionally have a destructuring-bind around it
2021-02-15T07:02:11Z beach: Use a function to avoid the repetition?
2021-02-15T07:03:47Z charles`: but I also am inside a tagbody
2021-02-15T07:04:18Z charles`: also If I have a function, the variables defined in the destructuring-bind wouldn't be available in the function
2021-02-15T07:04:50Z beach: If the function is defined in the body of the destructuring-bind, they would.
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2021-02-15T07:05:30Z beach: It is hard to give general advice since the solution depends a lot on the exact structure of the code.  Maybe you can post your version with repetition, and we can analyze it.
2021-02-15T07:06:38Z beach: A macro may be the only reasonable solution.
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2021-02-15T07:10:07Z charles`: https://pastebin.com/9MvymGiA
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2021-02-15T07:12:19Z beach: Are you referring to the (progn ,@optimized) as the repetition?
2021-02-15T07:12:36Z beach: If so, that's repeated only in the generated code, not in the source.
2021-02-15T07:12:55Z charles`: yes, that is what I refer to. is that not a big deal?
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2021-02-15T07:17:07Z beach: No, and the compiler will regularly duplicate code anyway, in order to speed it up.
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2021-02-15T07:17:20Z beach: Like inlining, loop unrolling, etc.
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2021-02-15T07:18:28Z charles`: Very cool, thanks.
2021-02-15T07:18:32Z beach: Sure.
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2021-02-15T07:20:53Z beach: ... and I am still not sure whether you were referring to the repeated source code, or the repeated generated code.
2021-02-15T07:22:18Z charles`: I was worried about repeated generated code
2021-02-15T07:22:35Z beach: Oh!  Yes, then you can totally forget about the issue. :)
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2021-02-15T07:23:34Z charles`: I also just realized that I can do my initial destructuring-bind inside the macro-lambda-list
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2021-02-15T08:08:32Z gj: hello everyone
2021-02-15T08:08:52Z beach: Hello gj.
2021-02-15T08:09:52Z gj: oh hi there! i do have a lisp question today.
2021-02-15T08:10:08Z beach: Go right ahead.
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2021-02-15T08:13:04Z gj: hmm, i am trying to think about how exactly to word it... english is not my first language so it might take a while.
2021-02-15T08:13:18Z beach: Take your time.
2021-02-15T08:14:06Z beach: My guess is that the same holds true for most #lisp participants.
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2021-02-15T08:20:10Z shka_: gj: spit it out, we can figure out what you mean together :-)
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2021-02-15T08:24:28Z gj: im trying to figure it out myself!! i think i am almost there.
2021-02-15T08:24:53Z gj: if not, of course i will ask for help
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2021-02-15T08:25:23Z shka_: ok
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2021-02-15T08:30:16Z Inline: morning
2021-02-15T08:30:47Z beach: Hello Inline.
2021-02-15T08:31:05Z Inline: heya beach
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2021-02-15T12:00:24Z nij: Is there any Lisp program's documentation is wiki-like.. an autogenerated collections of html that mimicks the experience of inspecting objects in slime/sly?
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2021-02-15T12:14:06Z luis: nij: there's an HTML5 backend for CLIM and an inspector written in CLIM
2021-02-15T12:14:25Z luis: McCLIM rather.
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2021-02-15T12:24:18Z scymtym: *prototype backend
2021-02-15T12:34:18Z luis: ^-- prototype backend author
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2021-02-15T12:50:24Z nij`: luis: I haven't started to learn CLIM yet.. If I have a lisp program already that happily works without a GUI, does it take many steps for me to generated a HTML5 backend doc?!
2021-02-15T12:52:06Z nij` is now known as nij
2021-02-15T12:53:51Z contrapunctus: nij: I've been thinking about different ways of interacting with programs, outside of the traditional file-based ways. Any reason you wouldn't want to just use SLIME/Sly itself, instead of making a web app which mimics them?
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2021-02-15T13:04:08Z nij: contrapunctus: tbh my plan is vague
2021-02-15T13:04:39Z nij: I'm writing math papers and books. And in math.. technical terms are really OBJECTS.
2021-02-15T13:06:04Z nij: In traditional writing, there's even no hyperlink. The reading experience is super bad.
2021-02-15T13:06:24Z nij: Nowadays, there are more and more wiki-like articles. But it's still superficial.
2021-02-15T13:06:45Z nij: Really, based on set theory, all math concepts can be written as some sort of Lisp objects.
2021-02-15T13:07:17Z nij: Once that's done, we should be able to automatically generate a wiki for users to dive in.
2021-02-15T13:07:42Z nij: So why not just SLIME/SLY themselves? 1. We need latex rendering (or even more, idk for now). 2. More users can read it.
2021-02-15T13:08:28Z nij: (e.g. look at https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/group+completion .. there are lots of links.. but they lack of "structures")
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2021-02-15T13:10:54Z nij: And it's not just math I guess. In general, having web like doc is useful.
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2021-02-15T13:38:21Z lambdanon: Hi, I'm trying to figure out how to use CLX to try making my own window manager, but the brief tour shown in the manuals I find are broken; there's an undefined function called `menu-present`. Are there up-to-date manuals? Are there better X frameworks in CL?
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2021-02-15T13:40:03Z ralt: lambdanon: maybe try looking at how stumpwm does it
2021-02-15T13:40:10Z ralt: it's a window manager using CLX
2021-02-15T13:40:26Z contrapunctus: nij: hm...would notebooks meet your needs? From what little I know of them, they seem to be the mix of interactive environment and document that you want.
2021-02-15T13:41:31Z nij: contrapunctus: lemme put it this way.. can we generate a pile of htmls (or a notebook.. which im not familiar with) from an asdf system?
2021-02-15T13:41:35Z Bike: lambdanon: if you're looking at "A Quick Tour of CLX", it looks like the actual code has menu-present defined
2021-02-15T13:41:52Z Bike: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/blob/master/demo/menu.lisp#L252
2021-02-15T13:41:57Z lambdanon: Bike: That's odd. I C-f through the document, and it's not there?
2021-02-15T13:42:14Z Bike: yeah, i don't think the manual has the entire program
2021-02-15T13:42:15Z lambdanon: https://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~ljosa/doc/encycmuclopedia/x/clx.pdf
2021-02-15T13:42:42Z lambdanon: Bike: thanks, that clears a lot up
2021-02-15T13:43:32Z lambdanon: ralt: I'm trying to do a dynamic window manager that feels like DWM, but with stumpwm's extensibility. I'll try checking out the source code, hopefully it'll show how they do it
2021-02-15T13:43:54Z lambdanon: Right now I'm thinking of designing the program with something like
2021-02-15T13:44:07Z ralt: lambdanon: maybe you want to take a look at this first https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm/pull/851
2021-02-15T13:45:57Z contrapunctus: nij: I think I've seen libraries for that. But mind, I'm just a newbie in CL. Have a look here. https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#documentation-builders
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2021-02-15T13:46:23Z lambdanon: ralt: That looks cool. although I'll probably end up using this dynamic management in stumwpm, I'm also making this project out of my own sense of curiosity, learning how to manage asdf systems, packages, etc
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2021-02-15T13:53:12Z nij: contrapunctus: among them mgl-pax seems interesting! thanks for sharing! (taking a look)
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2021-02-15T13:58:02Z zxq2: any good resource for learning about fixed point combinators?
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2021-02-15T13:58:26Z zxq2: specifically for doing recursion
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2021-02-15T14:05:57Z beach: You mean like the Y combinator?
2021-02-15T14:06:18Z beach: I would think a boot about lambda calculus.
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2021-02-15T14:06:38Z zxq2: yeah
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2021-02-15T14:07:21Z holycow: #lispcafe
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2021-02-15T14:07:34Z holycow: sorry about the noise
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2021-02-15T14:09:32Z beach: s/boot/book/
2021-02-15T14:09:34Z beach: *sigh*
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2021-02-15T14:15:38Z beach: zxq2: The subject is a bit off topic for this channel, though.
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2021-02-15T14:26:05Z nij: zxq2: This post clicked for me: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/51246/can-someone-explain-the-y-combinator
2021-02-15T14:27:02Z nij: IMO don't try to learn to intuition. Instead, learn the rules of lambda calculus. And pick a Y-comb version of "factorial", expand it yourself and see why you get (fact 3) = 6.
2021-02-15T14:27:31Z nij: Many blogposts sell on "explaning it".. but unfortunately some syntatical/algebraic experience can be only acquired by doing it.
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2021-02-15T14:28:00Z nij: Slightly related, supporting my point, the MU puzzle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MU_puzzle
2021-02-15T14:28:35Z nij: In short, you can discover a lot of things by playing with the puzzle. And while you try to explain the experience to people, people will most likely be confused.
2021-02-15T14:28:53Z nij: But as beach said, it's a bit offtopic here. So I'll cut it here :/
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2021-02-15T14:29:47Z zxq2: yeah that's kind of what i've been doing. i've been experimenting with the U-combinator (lambda (f) (f f)), which is a bit simpler, in racket.
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2021-02-15T14:31:32Z Josh_2: Hi
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2021-02-15T14:32:33Z nij: zxq2 make it a goal to compute (fact 3) = 6 by your hand!
2021-02-15T14:32:41Z nij: After that you'd understand!
2021-02-15T14:32:41Z zxq2: i've been watching a lecture where lisp features are built from scratch using primitives from the lambda calclus (e.g. church numerals, etc). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSnZzunIELs
2021-02-15T14:33:05Z zxq2: everything else clicked pretty quickly.
2021-02-15T14:33:28Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2302#2302 can someone take a look at this? The top is the C and the bottom is my attempt at sending the correct args in CL, I don't get any errors when I run the function it just blocks and never returns
2021-02-15T14:33:29Z jasom: flip214: oh, I missed that you needed an in-ram stream. https://edicl.github.io/flexi-streams/
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2021-02-15T14:36:15Z nij: A question: can I call a method f on a Lisp object x in a succinct syntax like `x.f` in python?
2021-02-15T14:37:00Z beach: Luckily no.  And you don't call objects in Common Lisp, you call generic functions.
2021-02-15T14:37:01Z jasom: Josh_2: that's not how I would do it, and you can't rely on CFFI's automatic conversion of strings for *output* pointers.
2021-02-15T14:37:25Z Josh_2: jasom: how would you do it? this is my first time messing with CFFI
2021-02-15T14:37:44Z beach: Er, I mean, you don't call METHODS in Common Lisp.
2021-02-15T14:38:21Z theothornhill: nij: Isn't (f x) pretty succinct?
2021-02-15T14:38:55Z beach: nij: That syntax is really bizarre, because it distinguishes one particular argument from the others.  CLOS did a great job of fixing that problem.
2021-02-15T14:39:09Z nij: theothornhill: I might run into things like "a.b.c.d.e.f.g"
2021-02-15T14:39:24Z theothornhill: nij: oof
2021-02-15T14:39:39Z nij: Bases: sage.algebras.quantum_groups.representations.CyclicRepresentation  e.g. https://doc.sagemath.org/html/en/reference/algebras/sage/algebras/quantum_groups/representations.html
2021-02-15T14:39:41Z beach: nij: Then I would say you have a problem with software architecture.
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2021-02-15T14:40:18Z nij: beach: ? it's not about programming but math
2021-02-15T14:40:23Z nij: but how does CLOS solve this?
2021-02-15T14:40:24Z theothornhill: nij: you could use arrows though: (-> g (f) (e)) etc
2021-02-15T14:40:31Z beach: nij: Solve what?
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2021-02-15T14:40:42Z nij: uh.. i mean "fixing that problem"
2021-02-15T14:40:52Z beach: What problem?
2021-02-15T14:40:57Z beach: I see no problem.
2021-02-15T14:41:04Z jackdaniel: nij: in common lisp methods live in a generic function, not in an object
2021-02-15T14:41:12Z nij: You said there's a problem solved by CLOS 3 min ago.
2021-02-15T14:41:37Z nij: theothornhill: ah right.. that's a bit better
2021-02-15T14:41:51Z theothornhill: nij: I can sympathize though with the nested accessor thing. Same thing with `aref` and arrays, but that's just lisp
2021-02-15T14:41:59Z beach: Oh, that.  The problem where one argument is distinguished.  It solves it by not distinguishing between the arguments, so (f x y z) rather than x.f(y,z)
2021-02-15T14:42:20Z nij: i see
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2021-02-15T14:42:58Z nij: or just use #'reduce i guess
2021-02-15T14:43:09Z jackdaniel: how about compose?
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2021-02-15T14:43:19Z theothornhill: annoying to write (aref (aref (aref x 3) 2) 1)
2021-02-15T14:43:29Z jackdaniel: well ,scratch that
2021-02-15T14:43:33Z nij: jackdaniel: in lisp2 you need #'funcall which is annoying
2021-02-15T14:43:41Z jackdaniel: what is annoying about funcall?
2021-02-15T14:43:57Z nij: x.f.g.h.j.k.l should be written like (reduce :init x '(f g h j k l))
2021-02-15T14:44:13Z jackdaniel: (setf (fdefinition 'foo) (compose 'list 'list))
2021-02-15T14:44:19Z beach: nij: In languages with that bizarre syntax, a method can specialize only to the first distinguished parameter.  In CLOS, a method can specialize to any subset of the required parameters.
2021-02-15T14:44:20Z nij: jackdaniel: it's long and not elegant.. probably i should create a user read macro for that myself
2021-02-15T14:44:27Z jackdaniel: there, now: > (foo 15) ; --> ((15))
2021-02-15T14:45:00Z nij: beach: I sort of got your point
2021-02-15T14:45:18Z theothornhill: nij: you don't need a reader macro though. You could just create a normal macro
2021-02-15T14:45:28Z theothornhill: also, you could check out rutils
2021-02-15T14:45:33Z _death: theothornhill: so write (naref x 3 2 1) .. we have procedural abstraction
2021-02-15T14:45:34Z nij wishes common-lisp were lisp 1.
2021-02-15T14:45:51Z Josh_2: use scheme then
2021-02-15T14:45:52Z jackdaniel: what an attracious wish ,p
2021-02-15T14:45:57Z theothornhill: _death: :-O
2021-02-15T14:45:58Z beach is grateful it is not.
2021-02-15T14:46:23Z nij: wait why? isn't lisp 1 clearer syntactically?
2021-02-15T14:46:30Z nij: s/clear/clean
2021-02-15T14:46:39Z theothornhill: _death: ah misread. Yeah, I know and have sometimes, but now I thought you meant it was builtin :)
2021-02-15T14:46:55Z _death: theothornhill: everything is built in once you build it in :)
2021-02-15T14:46:55Z jackdaniel: it is more minimal, but minimal doesn't always mean clear
2021-02-15T14:47:01Z beach: nij: Only for the case that Lisp-1 people like to emphasize.
2021-02-15T14:47:17Z theothornhill: _death: :)
2021-02-15T14:47:21Z pfdietz: Lisp 1 requires you keep track of the interference between the two namespaces.
2021-02-15T14:47:42Z pfdietz: (the two namespaces that you have smashed together into one namespace)
2021-02-15T14:48:00Z nij: Why are there two?
2021-02-15T14:48:05Z theothornhill: Also, the explicit funcalling at least makes it very explicit that you are calling a function.
2021-02-15T14:48:14Z nij: There shouldn't be any distinguishment between a normal object and a function..
2021-02-15T14:48:15Z theothornhill: and that can be nice
2021-02-15T14:48:15Z beach: nij: Actually, there are more like 7
2021-02-15T14:48:20Z Josh_2: I think that CL has more explicit syntax because functions and variables don't share the same namespace
2021-02-15T14:48:40Z jackdaniel: every time you create a hash table you define a new namespace
2021-02-15T14:49:25Z pfdietz: Because variables and functions are typically used in different ways.   The crossovers are not very common, so the syntactic overhead of that crossing is small.  I remember looking at the frequency of occurence of FUNCALL in Quicklisp systems -- just 0.4% of lines.
2021-02-15T14:49:26Z ecraven: ah, sometimes I envy Lisp, that you can just call a variable `list' and don't break anything.. then I envy Scheme, that you can just (apply foo params), and don't need to think about what foo might be...
2021-02-15T14:49:41Z pfdietz: This may be a CL style thing, at least in part.
2021-02-15T14:49:43Z nij: I think it stems in the mindset whether functions should be treated as completely first-clsas or not.
2021-02-15T14:49:59Z beach: nij: That's an orthogonal issue.
2021-02-15T14:50:06Z theothornhill: jackdaniel: Oh? What do you mean?
2021-02-15T14:50:29Z jackdaniel: theothornhill: what is a namespace?
2021-02-15T14:50:47Z jackdaniel: a mapping from a name to a value
2021-02-15T14:50:52Z theothornhill: Right now I'm thinking I have no idea :P
2021-02-15T14:50:55Z jackdaniel: (for a generous definition of 'name')
2021-02-15T14:51:17Z pfdietz: So, if one were to imagine a CL that was a Lisp-1, one would have to think about shadowing function names at every variable binding.   I contend the mental overhead of that would be worse than having to remember to use explicit #' and funcall/apply.
2021-02-15T14:52:32Z beach: nij: I can think of the following built-in namespaces: variables, functions, classes, method combinations, types, packages.  But I probably forgot a few.
2021-02-15T14:52:58Z jackdaniel: what I find a little ugly in cl is the fact, that lexical and special variables are not in separate namespaces, but that's practically solved with a naming convention
2021-02-15T14:53:02Z pfdietz: block names, tagbody tags
2021-02-15T14:53:12Z beach: pfdietz: Thanks.
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2021-02-15T14:53:58Z nij: pfdietz: why would one have to think about shadowing funciton names then?
2021-02-15T14:54:10Z pfdietz: jackdaniel: yes, that's a blemish.   It's probably historical, from when all variables were dynamically bound.
2021-02-15T14:54:32Z pfdietz: nij:  ask yourself why scheme programs have variables named "lst".
2021-02-15T14:54:57Z nij: pfdietz: the only lisp i "know" are cl and elisp :-(
2021-02-15T14:55:07Z nij: so i don't really know the practical problem of lisp-1
2021-02-15T14:55:18Z nij: i just think it's more elegant from a math person's view
2021-02-15T14:55:37Z jasom: okay, may be too early, but I can't solve the plaster captcha
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2021-02-15T14:55:58Z jasom is going to write a program to solve a captcha that he, himself, can't solve :/
2021-02-15T14:55:59Z beach: nij: The main purpose of Common Lisp was to be a practical programming tool.  Not to be elegant.
2021-02-15T14:55:59Z Josh_2: jasom: c&p your code you can just refresh
2021-02-15T14:55:59Z pfdietz: nij: in a Lisp-1, if you have a variable with the same name as a global function, you can't call that function via that name in the scope of that variable.  In a Lisp-2, you can.
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2021-02-15T14:56:20Z nij: beach: I get that. I'm still struggling to find out why lisp-1 fails to be practical.
2021-02-15T14:56:31Z theothornhill: Does it?
2021-02-15T14:56:46Z jasom: Josh_2: attempt here: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2302#2303
2021-02-15T14:56:48Z nij: pfdietz: Then don't name the var and the function by the same name.. why not @@?
2021-02-15T14:57:07Z nij: It's still going back to the mental state that functions and vars are different.. isn't it?
2021-02-15T14:57:25Z pfdietz: nij: so you have to keep track of what the names are.  This is the mental overhead I referred to.
2021-02-15T14:57:30Z flip214: jasom: sorry, but that link alone doesn't help - I've seen that already.
2021-02-15T14:57:39Z flip214: https://edicl.github.io/flexi-streams/#make-in-memory-output-stream says "a subtype of octet", so no chars.
2021-02-15T14:57:41Z jackdaniel: nij: kent pitman made an excellent argument, that verbs and nouns are separate in a spoken language
2021-02-15T14:58:05Z flip214: I've implemented my own stream class that accepts strings, characters, and bytes, but it might be faster some other way?!
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2021-02-15T14:58:14Z jackdaniel: nij: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
2021-02-15T14:58:36Z jasom: Josh_2: Always comment your C function prototypes with which are input and which are output values for sanity.  It's obvious when thinking about it, but the mental overhead is always maxed out when thinking about C for me.
2021-02-15T14:58:39Z Josh_2: jasom: that worked!
2021-02-15T14:58:44Z pfdietz: Anyway, what is the practical benefit of this "elegance"?   It seems like useless posturing rather than something of value.
2021-02-15T14:58:45Z nij: jackdaniel - but verb can be naturally makes into noun and be treated like a noun
2021-02-15T14:58:46Z jasom: flip214: make-flexi-stream needs to go on top
2021-02-15T14:59:00Z nij: jackdaniel: OH ok in Lisp that's `#'`
2021-02-15T14:59:37Z jasom: flip214: you need an in-memory binary stream (many systems including flexi-streams provide that) and you need bivalent streams on top of a binary stream (many systems including flexi-streams provide that)
2021-02-15T14:59:48Z Nilby: lisp2 is really just a practical thing for writing large & complex programs.
2021-02-15T15:00:02Z jasom: you can't do bivalent streams on top of most character streams, since most character i/o formats are not 8-bit clean
2021-02-15T15:00:16Z nij: Nilby: I see.
2021-02-15T15:00:44Z Nilby: everyone can agree lisp1 is simpler, but try writing big things and then see if you want lisp2
2021-02-15T15:00:57Z jasom: even latin-1 streams may not be 8-bit clean on e.g. windows due to line-ending translations
2021-02-15T15:01:16Z nij: i see
2021-02-15T15:02:01Z nij: 'x refers to the variable x, #'x refers to the function x, ... what expressions refer to the class, type, method.. x ?
2021-02-15T15:02:01Z jasom: Josh_2: do note the comment that if the output picked data is very large you will corrupt memory on at least sbcl, since CFFI unconditionally stack allocates in with-foreign-pointer-as-string on at least sbcl
2021-02-15T15:02:23Z _death: jackdaniel: funny, I remembered it that way https://www.dreamsongs.com/Separation.html
2021-02-15T15:03:08Z jasom: nij: 'x refers to the symbol x; #'x refers to the function associated with the symbol x in the particular lexical and dynamic environment in which #'x is evaluated.
2021-02-15T15:03:20Z pfdietz: Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"
2021-02-15T15:04:43Z nij: jasom: Ah yes. I was confused. Thanks :-)
2021-02-15T15:05:02Z jasom: nij: (find-class 'x) will refer to the class named by the symbol x
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2021-02-15T15:05:12Z Josh_2: jasom: so I should do I check to make sure the password isn't very long?
2021-02-15T15:05:38Z Josh_2: ie not more than 64 characters etc
2021-02-15T15:05:57Z jasom: Josh_2: that depends on how safe you want to be.  A passphrase is ulikely to be more than 1k I would say.  Not sure how big of a stack lisps use, but I would guess 1k is within sanity
2021-02-15T15:05:59Z _death: nij: #'x is just a shorthand for (function x) so if the hash is too noisy, you can just use the latter.. I think pjb used to do that
2021-02-15T15:06:35Z jasom: Josh_2: I have in the past written my own version of with-foreign-pointer that heap allocates; you may just want to do the same for strings
2021-02-15T15:06:37Z nij: jasom: _death: thanks :)
2021-02-15T15:07:56Z jasom: Josh_2: I would be at least as concerned about the output size being too large, but I don't know how big these objects are
2021-02-15T15:08:29Z Josh_2: I think the output is constant
2021-02-15T15:08:44Z Josh_2: 438 characters
2021-02-15T15:08:46Z jasom: Josh_2: oh really?  That makes it a lot easier then
2021-02-15T15:08:59Z Josh_2: I just tried two different passphrases and they both have a constant output size
2021-02-15T15:09:11Z jasom: Josh_2: what about two different "account" objects?
2021-02-15T15:09:18Z jasom: Josh_2: that's what I would expect to change the size
2021-02-15T15:09:22Z Josh_2: I tried two different account objects
2021-02-15T15:10:22Z jasom: great; I would probably just check for a sane passphrase length; 64 characters is perhaps too short, I use passphrases that are longer occasionally.  128 or 256 is probably fine.
2021-02-15T15:11:10Z Josh_2: still the same 438
2021-02-15T15:11:15Z jasom: Josh_2: default control-stack-size on sbcl is 2MB
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2021-02-15T15:12:50Z jasom: Josh_2: there doesn't seem to be a way to query it (at least a search of the sbcl manual index for "stack" didn't show up anything useful
2021-02-15T15:13:17Z jasom: but like I said, if you're allocating less than 1k total on the stack you're almost certainly fine on non-embedded systems
2021-02-15T15:13:51Z jasom: and "almost certainly fine" is about as good as you get when interacting with many foreign libraries...
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2021-02-15T15:49:15Z jmercouris: hello everyone
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2021-02-15T16:09:53Z beach: Hello jmercouris.
2021-02-15T16:11:22Z jmercouris: thank you!
2021-02-15T16:12:36Z ebrasca: Hello jmercouris!
2021-02-15T16:12:54Z jmercouris: hello ebrasca
2021-02-15T16:12:58Z Josh_2: Hi
2021-02-15T16:13:05Z jmercouris: hello Josh_2
2021-02-15T16:13:24Z Josh_2: jasom: how do I go about deallocating the memory once I have a returned foreign object?
2021-02-15T16:13:34Z jmercouris: Josh_2: free
2021-02-15T16:14:26Z jmercouris: Josh_2: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html#free_002dtranslated_002dobject
2021-02-15T16:14:41Z Josh_2: no no I mean when
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2021-02-15T16:14:49Z jmercouris: what do you mean?
2021-02-15T16:14:57Z jmercouris: when do you decide to deallocate?
2021-02-15T16:15:24Z Josh_2: See that example function do I just free after I have my returned result or do I need to free when I am 100% done with the underlying object?
2021-02-15T16:15:37Z phoe: the latter
2021-02-15T16:15:48Z phoe: you must not free an object that you are going to use at any time in the future
2021-02-15T16:15:56Z phoe: but then again! depends on what exactly you return
2021-02-15T16:16:12Z jmercouris: as always the answer is; it depends
2021-02-15T16:16:15Z phoe: do you return a foreign pointer, or some Lisp object that was constructed based on the foreign data and is therefore allocated in GC-managed memory?
2021-02-15T16:16:24Z phoe: in the former case you must not free it
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2021-02-15T16:16:48Z phoe: in the latter case your code should have already freed it for you because the memory was allocated with dynamic extent if the foreign wrapper code is worth its salt
2021-02-15T16:16:54Z Josh_2: right, in this case I believe it is a pointer
2021-02-15T16:17:04Z Josh_2: so does that mean I have to keep track of all the pointers I allocate?
2021-02-15T16:17:04Z phoe: so you must manage its lifetime yourself
2021-02-15T16:17:08Z phoe: yes
2021-02-15T16:17:12Z Josh_2: frick
2021-02-15T16:17:13Z phoe: welcome to manual memory management
2021-02-15T16:17:16Z Josh_2: yes what a pain
2021-02-15T16:17:25Z phoe: or use dynamic extent wherever you can
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2021-02-15T16:19:48Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2302#2303 if we take the example that jasom wrote for me then I would need to keep track of all the pointers allocated within pickle so that when I'm done with account I can free them?
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2021-02-15T16:21:47Z warweasle: Anyone use lisp for algotrading?
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2021-02-15T16:35:40Z jmercouris: You could also write your own wrapper that handles the memory management
2021-02-15T16:35:55Z jmercouris: That’s often a lot cleaner than trying to handle it within your actual project
2021-02-15T16:36:03Z jmercouris: Usually memory leaks are then handled
2021-02-15T16:36:46Z jmercouris: warweasle: I think you’ll find a lot more python and r suitable for the task
2021-02-15T16:37:10Z jmercouris: There is going to be very limited support in lisp, especially for interfacing with the trading platforms
2021-02-15T16:37:43Z Josh_2: I know someone who wrote his trading platform in Clojure
2021-02-15T16:39:26Z warweasle: jmercouris: Yeah... I'm seeing a lack of libraries... Would have to write my own and that would take a while.
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2021-02-15T16:58:22Z mfiano: Could someone please remind me how to get at a method's function object with the MOP? t's been a while since I had to do this...
2021-02-15T16:59:44Z phoe: c2mop:method-function but I don't know what sort of arguments this accepts
2021-02-15T16:59:47Z phoe: mop method-function
2021-02-15T16:59:47Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-function.html
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2021-02-15T17:00:21Z phoe: oh right, arguments and next methods
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2021-02-15T17:05:39Z mfiano: That's what I tried, but I must be doing something wrong
2021-02-15T17:06:06Z mfiano: I tried to view the disassembly with: (disassemble (c2mop:method-function (find-method #'foo nil '(bar t))))
2021-02-15T17:06:22Z mfiano: But I must not be looking at the right object, because it never changes even when I change the method body
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2021-02-15T17:16:19Z scymtym: mfiano: (disassemble (sb-pcl::%method-function-fast-function (sb-mop:method-function (find-method #'sb-mop:ensure-class-using-class '() '(null t))))) seems to do the trick for my SBCL version
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2021-02-15T17:17:37Z scymtym: (and disassembling the return value of METHOD-FUNCTION prints the disassembly for two functions where the second one corresponds to the above)
2021-02-15T17:18:33Z mfiano: I can't get that to work with mine
2021-02-15T17:18:39Z mfiano: Let me play around a bit
2021-02-15T17:20:36Z scymtym: seems to have been changed around 2019-08
2021-02-15T17:20:54Z mfiano: Ok I got it to work, but
2021-02-15T17:21:09Z mfiano: It's returning the same exact disassembly no matter if i change and recompile the method
2021-02-15T17:21:53Z mfiano: Maybe I'm doing something wrong...
2021-02-15T17:21:57Z mfiano: I can make a gist for you
2021-02-15T17:22:25Z scymtym: sure
2021-02-15T17:23:32Z mfiano: Ok now it works, ha
2021-02-15T17:23:44Z mfiano: Nevermind, and thank you. Any idea how to do this portably with c2mop?
2021-02-15T17:26:28Z scymtym: no, but as i said, for me, DISASSEMBLE outputs the disassembly you are looking for after the one you don't want. so maybe SEARCH and SUBSEQ to get the relevant part of the output?
2021-02-15T17:26:49Z mfiano: That is not what I experience
2021-02-15T17:27:07Z mfiano: The disassembly is always the same when doing it on METHOD-FUNCTION's return value
2021-02-15T17:27:15Z mfiano: Unlike the sbcl internal way
2021-02-15T17:30:18Z scymtym: hm, maybe my SBCL version is new enough to exhibit some changed behavior
2021-02-15T17:30:26Z scymtym: no idea in that case, sorry
2021-02-15T17:30:27Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/93c93362786089a670c7b48534d698de
2021-02-15T17:31:11Z mfiano: oh you're right actually
2021-02-15T17:31:24Z mfiano: Sorry for the confusion
2021-02-15T17:31:33Z mfiano: I was assuming the code size included both
2021-02-15T17:31:43Z mfiano: the header at the top i mean
2021-02-15T17:32:06Z mfiano: Thank you for your work on SBCL btw
2021-02-15T17:33:05Z scymtym: no worries
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2021-02-15T17:34:25Z scymtym: it is easy to miss (i wasn't aware of this before today either)
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2021-02-15T21:09:44Z Josh_2: I don't like CFFI
2021-02-15T21:09:45Z Josh_2: oof
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2021-02-15T23:00:54Z srandon111: Josh_2, and then ?
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2021-02-16T00:43:36Z dbotton: Does anyone know a function that can turn say ".." Into the full absolute path for ".."?
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2021-02-16T00:49:27Z Xach: dbotton: truename is one
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2021-02-16T00:51:39Z dbotton: That looks like will work
2021-02-16T00:52:04Z Xach: also known as clarissa-oakes
2021-02-16T00:56:01Z dbotton: ?
2021-02-16T00:56:10Z ozzloy: i'm stuck on reading user input with common lisp
2021-02-16T00:56:31Z ozzloy: https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2077611 i try to store a fact into a hash-table, then later i try to read a key from the user
2021-02-16T00:56:43Z ozzloy: and i'm unable to do that.
2021-02-16T00:57:35Z ozzloy: how do i read a form from user input and use that as a key in a hashtable?
2021-02-16T00:57:36Z Xach: ozzloy: do not put a ' in front of the user input.
2021-02-16T00:57:52Z ozzloy: really?
2021-02-16T00:58:05Z Xach: ozzloy: '(is_a_dog rover) reads as (QUOTE (IS_A_DOG ROVER)) which is not a key in the table.
2021-02-16T00:58:15Z Xach: but (is_a_dog rover) reads as (IS_A_DOG ROVER), which is.
2021-02-16T00:58:50Z Xach: ozzloy: in the REPL, the key difference is the E step - evaluation. (QUOTE (IS_A_DOG ROVER)) evaluates to a key, but is not a key before evaluation.
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2021-02-16T01:00:23Z ozzloy: makes sense
2021-02-16T01:00:34Z ozzloy: read doesn't e
2021-02-16T01:00:43Z ozzloy: it just reads
2021-02-16T01:01:32Z Xach: yep
2021-02-16T01:01:56Z ozzloy: i am new to common lisp
2021-02-16T01:02:03Z Xach: happy to help if i can
2021-02-16T01:02:09Z ozzloy: also to reading forms at runtime from the user
2021-02-16T01:02:29Z Xach: I was going to guess you were reading strings and not using a hash-table test that works with strings
2021-02-16T01:02:40Z Xach: that's an easy one to trip up on, too
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2021-02-16T01:09:59Z dbotton: Xach what is clarissa-oakes?
2021-02-16T01:10:53Z dbotton: Btw worked great, just added working save as and open dialogs to my desktop abstraction for clog
2021-02-16T01:11:36Z Xach: dbotton: it is a very roundabout reference to the fact that the 15th Aubrey/Maturin novel was published as "The Truelove" in the USA but "Clarissa Oakes" elsewhere.
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2021-02-16T01:11:50Z mfiano: Hey Xach
2021-02-16T01:12:03Z mfiano: I managed to figure out that defstruct issue. Just a misunderstanding of the HyperSpec
2021-02-16T01:12:13Z Xach: mfiano: time to blog about it?
2021-02-16T01:12:23Z dbotton: Ah, never ready the series. Worth while?
2021-02-16T01:12:41Z mfiano: "If :conc-name is nil or no argument is supplied, then no prefix is used; then the names of the reader functions are the same as the slot names."
2021-02-16T01:13:14Z Xach: dbotton: i enjoy it a lot, i like old timey boat things and it is certainly that
2021-02-16T01:13:25Z mfiano: Whenever I see "name" I read that as symbol-name, not symbol. So you effectively redefine a function in another package where :include'ing a struct in another package with :conc-name of NIL. The solution is to use :conc-name "" or ||
2021-02-16T01:13:55Z dbotton: Xach, I'll add it to me list. thanks
2021-02-16T01:13:56Z Xach: mfiano: ah!
2021-02-16T01:14:25Z Xach: mfiano: it occurred to me last night that i usually see "" for empty conc-names but i thought NIL was just another way to say it. i should have dug harder.
2021-02-16T01:14:49Z Xach was too tired from thinking up nautical novel crossover lisp puns
2021-02-16T01:14:49Z mfiano: NIL is special cased to mean something else entirely. I learned that the hard way after several hours of wtf
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2021-02-16T01:15:38Z mfiano: Finds it scary that defstruct has semantics for monkey patching things not in its own package though
2021-02-16T01:16:30Z ozzloy: thanks Xach
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2021-02-16T01:19:00Z Xach: ozzloy: works as expected now?
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2021-02-16T03:02:52Z dbotton: Xach here is a pic with the working dialog https://rabbibotton.github.io/images/clog-demo3.png
2021-02-16T03:05:13Z dbotton: I spent more time than expected on the desktop deal. I keep delaying the database stuff I plan next
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2021-02-16T03:43:48Z ozzloy: Xach, sure does!
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2021-02-16T04:01:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-02-16T04:35:18Z asarch: One very very stupid question: I do a query in a PostgreSQL and its result is parsed and stored with (push ... stored-elements)
2021-02-16T04:36:00Z asarch: Then, from a POST message from a HTML from I get the list of new elements selected and also stored with (push ... selected-elements)
2021-02-16T04:36:32Z asarch: So, stored-elements is (1 5 3) and selected-elements is (9 8 6 4 3 2).
2021-02-16T04:37:37Z asarch: If I do (set-difference stored-elements selected-elements) I get (3 5 1) and if I do vice versa (set-difference selected-elements stored-elements) I get (2 3 4 6 8 9)
2021-02-16T04:37:39Z asarch: Why?
2021-02-16T04:39:28Z asarch: However, if I do (set-difference '(1 5 3) '(9 8 6 4 3 2)) in SBCL REPL I get (5 1) and if I do vice versa (set-difference '(9 8 6 4 3 2) '(1 5 3)) I get (2 4 6 8 9)
2021-02-16T04:39:51Z beach: Yes, you have 3 in common, so it should be excluded in both cases.
2021-02-16T04:39:54Z asarch: What's wrong? :-(
2021-02-16T04:40:21Z beach: You probably have the wrong idea of the contents of those two sets.
2021-02-16T04:40:50Z beach: Do you really have sets of integers?
2021-02-16T04:40:58Z asarch: Should I use (parse-int ...) to store every element in the list?
2021-02-16T04:41:58Z asarch: I don't know. Let me see..
2021-02-16T04:42:22Z beach: Well, that is what you claimed.  I just wanted you to confirm.
2021-02-16T04:44:02Z asarch: "The value 3 is not of type STRING when binding STRING"
2021-02-16T04:44:11Z asarch: It seems it is already an integer
2021-02-16T04:44:29Z beach: Then you have a buggy Common Lisp implementation.
2021-02-16T04:44:59Z beach: ... which I don't believe, so there is something wrong with your description of the situation.
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2021-02-16T04:45:47Z asarch: "This is SBCL 2.1.1-1.1-suse, an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp."
2021-02-16T04:46:23Z asarch: This is the part of a web application to store the list of animes
2021-02-16T04:46:45Z asarch: Every anime has a name and a url to watch it
2021-02-16T04:46:50Z beach: I don't know what an anime is, but you said they are lists of integers.
2021-02-16T04:47:15Z asarch: This part is where you add genres to the anime: Hentai, Ecchi, Romance, Adventure, Gore, etc
2021-02-16T04:47:42Z beach: Look, you said that you have two lists of integers, and the calculation of the set difference is wrong.
2021-02-16T04:47:51Z beach: Why are you now talking about other kinds of objects?
2021-02-16T04:48:11Z asarch: Every genre is stored in a PostgreSQL table so using a n-to-n relation you can set the genres for a specific anime
2021-02-16T04:48:23Z beach: I give up.
2021-02-16T04:48:26Z asarch: *relationship
2021-02-16T04:49:08Z asarch: The 'stored-elements' represent all the genres selected for a specific anime
2021-02-16T04:49:40Z asarch: And 'selected-element' represents when you want to change list of all those genres of the anime
2021-02-16T04:49:46Z beach: Let me try this again.  Is the value of stored-elements a list of integers?
2021-02-16T04:49:52Z Nilby: maybe selected-elements is nil?
2021-02-16T04:50:19Z asarch: beach, yes. All the genres are stored by its numerical representation
2021-02-16T04:51:27Z asarch: Nilby, no, it isn't because (format t "selected-elements: ~a~%" selected-elements) gives (9 8 6 4 3 2)
2021-02-16T04:51:53Z asarch: So, I actually have both lists
2021-02-16T04:52:10Z beach: Don't use ~a.  It hides things.
2021-02-16T04:52:30Z beach: asarch: Then you must be using a different Common Lisp implementation for your first experiment, and your second one.  And the first one is buggy.
2021-02-16T04:53:02Z asarch: What should I use instead ~a?
2021-02-16T04:53:19Z beach: ~s
2021-02-16T04:54:49Z beach: Compare (format t "~a" "(1 2 3)") and (format t "~a" '(1 2 3))
2021-02-16T04:54:55Z beach: What do you see?
2021-02-16T04:55:27Z asarch: stored-elements: (1 5 3), selected-elements: ("8" "6" "4" "3" "2")
2021-02-16T04:55:44Z beach: There you go.
2021-02-16T04:55:46Z asarch: $%$%#%#!!!
2021-02-16T04:55:52Z asarch: THANK YOU!!!
2021-02-16T04:55:59Z beach: So they are not integers the way you have claimed for half an hour.
2021-02-16T04:56:02Z asarch: THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!
2021-02-16T04:56:06Z carkh: haha
2021-02-16T04:56:20Z carkh: morning
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2021-02-16T04:56:45Z beach: Hello carkh.
2021-02-16T04:56:56Z asarch: I didn't know ~s was better than ~a, I though ~a was for ~Alll
2021-02-16T04:57:13Z beach: It is not about "better".
2021-02-16T04:57:20Z beach: It is about what information you want.
2021-02-16T04:57:53Z carkh: i've been reading on yesterday's discussion about lisp 1 vs lisp 2, they're just different local minima in a design space
2021-02-16T04:58:14Z carkh: i don't think it's about "programming in the large" at all
2021-02-16T04:59:13Z carkh: or getting bitten by the big bad namespace confusion
2021-02-16T05:00:11Z carkh: been doing clojure the last 10 years, been confused a whole 5 minutes over that time about shadowing a function name
2021-02-16T05:00:16Z asarch: Yeah baby! (set-difference stored-elements selected-elements): (5 1), (set-difference selected-elements stored-elements): (2 4 6 8)
2021-02-16T05:01:11Z asarch: Dōmo arigatōgozaimashita Beach-sama
2021-02-16T05:01:15Z asarch: :-)
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2021-02-16T05:04:48Z beach: carkh: Good to know.
2021-02-16T05:05:27Z carkh: but i have a programming in the large question of my own
2021-02-16T05:05:44Z carkh: there was no quicklisp back when i learned CL
2021-02-16T05:06:05Z carkh: and it's a very nice thing to have, it really makes it easier to get started
2021-02-16T05:06:33Z carkh: but how does one go about ensuring build reproducatbility
2021-02-16T05:06:47Z carkh: in the java maven, or maybe npm sense
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2021-02-16T05:07:59Z carkh: i mean, how to pin libs versions for a project
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2021-02-16T05:14:35Z carkh: also looks like the correct spelling is "reproducibility" not a native speaker
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2021-02-16T05:15:10Z red-dot: Hola everyone.
2021-02-16T05:15:37Z red-dot: Does anyone know if uiop:define-package has the ability to exclude symbols? Or a workaround?
2021-02-16T05:15:48Z red-dot: If it does, I'm not seeing it.
2021-02-16T05:16:13Z red-dot: I'm trying to paper over about 10 packages into a unified interface, most of which I control, but not all, so it's managable.
2021-02-16T05:16:44Z red-dot: There's conduit, and defpackage-plus that seem like they'll do the trick, but I'm hoping I can bend UIOP to the task.
2021-02-16T05:18:07Z holycow: hey all. searching on freenode just shows #lisp, #lispgames and #lispcafe ... isn't there a chan for asking noob lisp questions?
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2021-02-16T05:20:48Z aeth: holycow: #clschool
2021-02-16T05:20:53Z holycow: oh!
2021-02-16T05:21:02Z holycow: thank you
2021-02-16T05:21:46Z aeth: it used to be #clnoobs but there were no ops when Freenode was hit with the spam attacks a while back so that channel is effectively abandoned
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2021-02-16T05:22:11Z aeth: if "noob lisp" was referring to that channel and not just a coincidence
2021-02-16T05:22:35Z holycow: total coinkydink
2021-02-16T05:22:59Z aeth: cool coincidence, then
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2021-02-16T05:23:50Z holycow: heh i'm actually spending time trying to use cl so it's time to start asking dumb questions.  that was the channel i was looking for, people here have mentioned it over the years.
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2021-02-16T05:35:33Z red-dot: If anyone is following, it looks like defpackage-plus is a bit fragile when it comes to redefining packages (but so is cl:defpackage). That said, it does seem to work well a use case like this. Not all that popular though. A github search only turned up two pages of hits for it in asd files.
2021-02-16T05:36:53Z red-dot: no package-local-nicknames though...
2021-02-16T05:37:16Z red-dot: Opps, it does have it.
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2021-02-16T05:44:37Z Nilby: I get by with plain old defpackage for about 300 packages. It ain't much, but it's honest work.
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2021-02-16T05:57:05Z red-dot: 300 packages? That's a lot of symbols to type out and manage, or do you do it programatically? I thought about that, but even programatically like :use-reexport does is going to require managing the exceptions individually. That's why I'm hoping for an equivalent for :use-reexport :foo-package :except :symbol-a :symbol-b, or something like that.
2021-02-16T05:58:09Z red-dot: I suppose that fact that defpackage-plus and conduit exist suggests that uiop isn't able to do this in any easy way.
2021-02-16T06:00:29Z red-dot: My hope in posting here was that there was/is a magic uiop incantation that works to the same effect
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2021-02-16T06:01:24Z Nilby: Most of hard work is figurin' what the old code should say. I have my goodold donkey emacs haul them symbols on up there in the package for me.
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2021-02-16T06:11:54Z Nilby: I usually don't re-export, and only export if I really need to. But probably nobody should take advice from a crazy guy with all this twisted junk living in a howl's moving castle of code. Proper old Sbeecil gives me some trouble sometimes about package variance, but I just give 'em a few restarts, handlers, muffles and whatnot.
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2021-02-16T06:27:26Z holycow: does anyone know if roswell delete packagename actually works/
2021-02-16T06:28:08Z holycow: i can do roswell isntall githubaccount/packagename but roswell delete githubaccount/packagename says package not isntalled when i can see it diretly in the .roswell directory
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2021-02-16T07:08:14Z kreyren1: https://github.com/wafelack/orion-lang O.o
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2021-02-16T07:11:35Z zdm: kreyren1: Never going to touch it because I'm petty and don't like C-syntax in my s-expressions
2021-02-16T07:11:59Z kreyren1: o.o
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2021-02-16T07:36:24Z beach: kreyren1: Please don't post links without also giving a description of what the potential reader should expect.
2021-02-16T07:36:44Z kreyren1: > Orion lang is a lispy programming language that is strongly and statically typed. -
2021-02-16T07:36:50Z kreyren1: i assume that people have embeds x.x
2021-02-16T07:37:13Z beach: That doesn't sound very "lispy".
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2021-02-16T07:38:24Z beach: Then, there is no widespread agreement as to what "Lisp" or "Lispy" is, and for some reason, we regularly see people here who desperately want their new home-brew language to be "a Lisp".
2021-02-16T07:38:52Z beach: Either way, #lisp is not for general "Lisp" languages, but for Common Lisp.
2021-02-16T07:42:35Z ecraven: there's ##lisp for "about lisp"
2021-02-16T07:42:49Z beach: Right.
2021-02-16T07:43:41Z beach: I never think of recommending it, because I imagine it wold be full of fruitless discussion about what languages might be "Lisp"s.
2021-02-16T07:45:04Z ecraven: ;) I've asked a bunch of questions relating to old lisps (Interlisp in that case), it has been useful to me ;)
2021-02-16T07:45:17Z beach: Oh, right.  That would be interesting.
2021-02-16T07:46:07Z ecraven: jcowan kindly pointed me to interlisp.org, and I fell down that rabbit hole ;)
2021-02-16T07:46:25Z ecraven: might be interesting to find out how good XCL is at actual CL compatibility
2021-02-16T07:46:34Z beach: Heh, I can think of worse rabbit holes to fall into.
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2021-02-16T07:53:34Z zdm: ecraven: thank you for providing me with the rabbit hole as well, interesting
2021-02-16T07:54:11Z ecraven: zdm: I'm just a complete beginner at Medley myself, but feel free to ask anything you're interested in (though maybe in ##lisp ;)
2021-02-16T07:54:45Z zdm: noted
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2021-02-16T11:24:12Z theothornhill: So my boss wants to have a lightning talk on lisp in a local conference. I've got 10 minutes - what could be some interesting things to show during that time? I was thinking about making a small webapp using hunchentoot and the repl, but not sure really how interesting that is.
2021-02-16T11:24:47Z loke[m]: It can be very interesting.
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2021-02-16T11:25:36Z loke[m]: I did such a presentation, but it was about 1 hour. The most popular part was me showing how I can recompile a function and the web application changes behaviour on the fly without having to redeploy or anything like that.
2021-02-16T11:26:02Z ecraven: ^ that's probably the interesting part, having a SLIME repl open and inspecting and changing things without needing to redeploy
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2021-02-16T11:26:58Z jackdaniel: theothornhill: test interactively a C library via repl (and ffi)
2021-02-16T11:27:00Z theothornhill: I'll just have to scope it down really hard, though
2021-02-16T11:27:14Z jackdaniel: i.e call a function, introspect a result etc
2021-02-16T11:27:41Z theothornhill: jackdaniel: Yeah, I could do that!
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2021-02-16T11:27:46Z carkh: set a break inside a handler, correct a bug while the page is rendering
2021-02-16T11:28:39Z heisig: theothornhill: Yes, show them the interactivity.  Like viewing Lisp and C data structures with Clouseau, even while they are being mutated.
2021-02-16T11:29:36Z theothornhill: heisig: That would be really cool, but I'd think people would scoff a little at that, given that C# rules the world here.
2021-02-16T11:29:41Z jackdaniel: and tell them, that lisp is the best thing since sliced bread, however a sliced bread is not known for being especially good for programming
2021-02-16T11:30:16Z theothornhill: Hah :P
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2021-02-16T11:31:50Z theothornhill: I think maybe the hunchentoot path is the way to go, given that's closer to our domain. I just need to find a good case
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2021-02-16T11:59:56Z Cthulhux: aren't there better servers than hunchentoot now?
2021-02-16T12:07:49Z jackdaniel: Cthulhux: the word "better" creates a false impression, that quality is a 1-dimensional metric
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2021-02-16T12:08:37Z jackdaniel: there are metrics like speed, convenience, feature-richness, community knowledge base and probably more and each seems to be quite orthogonal quality
2021-02-16T12:09:26Z jackdaniel: i.e woo server claims to be much faster, aserve is (I think) more mature etc
2021-02-16T12:09:47Z Cthulhux: hunchentoot is probably very much mature, but speed and scalability *are* important
2021-02-16T12:11:11Z loke[m]: Cthulhux: for something like 99% of uses of webservers, speed and scalability is not important.
2021-02-16T12:11:46Z jackdaniel: they are important for particular use cases, when you make a home web server to serve photos for your family, then you don't need a virtual machine behind cubernetes sitting on top of a cluster of load balancers to gcp
2021-02-16T12:11:46Z loke[m]: And the realtime chat application I wrote using Hunchntoot handled a few thousands parallel users, with something like 250 messages per second without problem.
2021-02-16T12:12:14Z loke[m]: Cthulhux: I'd say the number of sites that needs more than that is actually rather few.
2021-02-16T12:12:14Z jackdaniel: also, as loke[m] noted, speed and scalability are not binary values
2021-02-16T12:12:28Z loke[m]: (and if they do, it's easy enough to scale horizontally)
2021-02-16T12:13:34Z jackdaniel: that reminds me (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0) (safety 0)) because speed *matters* ;-) of course it is bullshit, you get 0 speed when your program reaches a core dump
2021-02-16T12:14:57Z loke[m]: jackdaniel: My point was that even the worst webserver can handle that use case without the need to use Google-level scalability technologies.
2021-02-16T12:15:54Z jackdaniel: loke[m]: yes, I think I've got that
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2021-02-16T12:17:56Z ecraven: there, you see, speed is not binary, it's quaternary!
2021-02-16T12:23:58Z edgar-rft: ...and don't forget that the fastest programs are those who don't even start
2021-02-16T12:24:52Z ck_: a whole new context to the tortoise and the hare
2021-02-16T12:25:29Z edgar-rft: ...and the second-fastest are those who instantly dump core
2021-02-16T12:28:28Z heisig: ...and the most efficient ones are those that are never written.
2021-02-16T12:30:46Z flip214: I can make ALL programs that efficient via "ulimit -d 4"
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2021-02-16T12:31:50Z flip214: Cthulhux: use hunchentoot-quux, and enjoy > 6000 requests per second per core.
2021-02-16T12:32:04Z flip214: depending on what you do in the easy-handler, of course.
2021-02-16T12:36:30Z edgar-rft: if you're concerned with efficiency then it's better to never switch on the computer and stop wasting all that electric energy
2021-02-16T12:38:38Z theothornhill: But does it have any issues with speed, though? Couldn't that be fixed, in that case?
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2021-02-16T12:53:30Z jackdaniel: theothornhill: the thing is that hunchentoot is not slow in any obvious way
2021-02-16T12:53:54Z jackdaniel: (the only "slowness" metric I can think of is that there are faster web servers :)
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2021-02-16T13:05:28Z flip214: theothornhill: I'm fine with hunchentoot-quux - this pre-allocates a number of threads, and on 4 cores I get >25000 rq/sec (for short compute times, of course - just a HMAC).
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2021-02-16T13:11:59Z Josh_2: 'ello
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2021-02-16T13:33:03Z theothornhill: jackdaniel: That's what I thought
2021-02-16T13:34:16Z theothornhill: flip214: That's about 25k times more requests per second that I need for this use case :P
2021-02-16T13:34:44Z jackdaniel: if you are going to make 1 request / second then you should use a metronome
2021-02-16T13:35:38Z theothornhill: hehe, right now I just need it to show some iterative development, so more like 1 request per 3-4 minute :P
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