2021-01-01T00:00:13Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-01T00:02:13Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-01T00:02:54Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T00:03:54Z reggie_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T00:05:05Z reggie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T00:05:08Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-01T00:07:08Z reggie_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T00:07:33Z frost-lab joined #lisp
2021-01-01T00:07:50Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-01T00:10:20Z reggie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T00:16:57Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-01T00:18:45Z kenran quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-01T00:26:25Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T00:31:30Z madagest joined #lisp
2021-01-01T00:31:31Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-01T00:33:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T00:34:28Z jibanes joined #lisp
2021-01-01T00:40:56Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T00:42:09Z jibanes joined #lisp
2021-01-01T00:45:28Z moon-child: is there a good way to do forward declarations, to keep sbcl from getting uppity with me about co-recursive functions?
2021-01-01T00:48:45Z Alfr_: clhs with-compilation-unit
2021-01-01T00:48:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_comp.htm
2021-01-01T00:48:52Z Alfr_: moon-child, ^
2021-01-01T00:48:53Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T00:49:08Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-01T00:51:14Z v0|d joined #lisp
2021-01-01T00:52:37Z moon-child: Alfr_: these functions are already in the same file
2021-01-01T00:56:13Z Alfr_: moon-child, by any chance you're loading the file directly? Can't it reproduce with (load (compile-file ..)).
2021-01-01T00:57:06Z moon-child: ah, yes, that's it.  Using compile-file I get no warning
2021-01-01T00:57:08Z moon-child: thanks!
2021-01-01T00:57:28Z Alfr_: moon-child, but you still can wrap these mutually recursive defuns in a (with-compilation-unit () ..) .
2021-01-01T00:58:15Z Alfr_: ... if you don't want to compile first.
2021-01-01T01:01:34Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-01T01:03:03Z jibanes joined #lisp
2021-01-01T01:06:39Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-01T01:06:59Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T01:08:23Z frost-lab joined #lisp
2021-01-01T01:10:01Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-01T01:16:27Z benjamindc left #lisp
2021-01-01T01:18:37Z matta quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-01T01:22:44Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-01T01:30:20Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-01T01:32:21Z kuroda joined #lisp
2021-01-01T01:39:36Z kuroda quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T01:57:33Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T02:02:48Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-01T02:06:15Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-01T02:06:42Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-01T02:12:28Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T02:15:09Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T02:16:32Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T02:18:17Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-01T02:18:54Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T02:18:59Z pfdietz: Or, you can declaim the later functions to have an ftype.   Or, you can make the later functions be generic, and put defgenerics at the top of the file, above the defmethods.
2021-01-01T02:20:37Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T02:24:45Z mrios222 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T02:24:54Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T02:25:14Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-01T02:26:27Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T02:28:04Z jibanes joined #lisp
2021-01-01T02:30:16Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-01T02:43:40Z jjong joined #lisp
2021-01-01T02:48:31Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T02:52:36Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T02:58:46Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-01T02:59:15Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-01T03:02:08Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-01T03:07:17Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-01T03:32:22Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-01T03:39:05Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T03:40:50Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-01T03:41:17Z hiroaki quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-01T03:41:50Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-01T03:42:20Z hiroaki quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-01T03:48:09Z plisp joined #lisp
2021-01-01T03:48:25Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-01T03:51:58Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T03:52:20Z plisp quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T04:00:11Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-01T04:02:47Z madagest quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T04:02:50Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-01T04:04:50Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-01T04:08:37Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-01T04:10:15Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-01T04:11:07Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-01T04:11:15Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-01T04:11:46Z thmprover joined #lisp
2021-01-01T04:12:02Z skapate joined #lisp
2021-01-01T04:13:27Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-01T04:13:27Z skapate is now known as skapata
2021-01-01T04:28:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-01T04:28:31Z beach: And a happy new year!
2021-01-01T04:32:59Z thmprover: Good morning, beach, and a happy new year to you and yours!
2021-01-01T04:33:11Z beach: Thanks.
2021-01-01T04:37:55Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-01T04:38:44Z beach: gendl: Starting in 2000, my colleague organized the "Libre Software Meeting" or "Rencontres Mondiales de Logiciel Libre" in Bordeaux.  It was a strange "conference" where people did not pay to attend, and some where in fact invited so they had their trip paid for.
2021-01-01T04:38:51Z beach: I volunteered to chair the track called "Very high-level languages for application development", which I turned into a mostly Common Lisp track.  So from the start we had danb, Krystof, gilberth, and many others present.
2021-01-01T04:38:55Z beach: This meeting was were McCLIM was essentially created.  We sketched how special variables were to be implemented in the presence of threads in SBCL.  danb did Bordeaux threads and maybe also ASDF then.  Over a few years, probably, because we organized the LSM/RMLL for a few years in Bordeaux before it became an even that moved every year.
2021-01-01T04:42:15Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-01T04:48:48Z beach: Maybe Krystof remembers more stuff, and remember them better, than I do.
2021-01-01T04:59:23Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-01T05:01:12Z mgxm quit (Quit: ....)
2021-01-01T05:03:31Z mgxm joined #lisp
2021-01-01T05:03:31Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-01T05:07:17Z mgxm quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T05:07:51Z mgxm joined #lisp
2021-01-01T05:14:01Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-01T05:27:31Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-01T05:34:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T05:35:31Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-01T05:43:35Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-01T05:44:30Z reggie_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T05:46:07Z jeosol: Good morning beach and everyone
2021-01-01T05:46:20Z jeosol: Happy new year 2021 (15 more minutes at my location)
2021-01-01T05:47:13Z beach: You too!
2021-01-01T05:47:18Z reggie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T05:48:29Z ck_: and then four hours more until the date line has swept the planet, right?
2021-01-01T05:49:24Z reggie_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T05:49:55Z beach: Something like that.
2021-01-01T05:50:43Z reggie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T05:51:10Z reggie_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T05:53:23Z reggie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T05:53:29Z PuercoPop quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T05:53:53Z ck_: I looked it up because I wasn't sure; there are two US islands in UTC-12. And also I did the arithmetic the wrong way, it's six hours from now.
2021-01-01T05:54:56Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T06:01:11Z beach: Most islands in that zone made a choice to be among the first to celebrate the new year.
2021-01-01T06:03:52Z ck_: most as in both of them?
2021-01-01T06:09:00Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-01T06:10:02Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-01T06:14:29Z beach: I am sure there are thousands of islands near the date line.
2021-01-01T06:16:00Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T06:19:44Z ck_: According to a map, most of them are in +12, or even +13, that's what I meant earlier, was surprised that there even are marked islands in UTC-12.  But ok. I guess it's off topic unless they do lisp
2021-01-01T06:21:14Z lotuseater: there is a chance for lispers to live there
2021-01-01T06:24:47Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-01T06:37:44Z thmprover: Say, is there an abstract machine (or virtual machine) that's particularly well suited for Lisp to target?
2021-01-01T06:41:24Z aeth: (nth 8 (multiple-value-list (get-decoded-time))) ; now it's on topic-ish
2021-01-01T06:41:26Z Lycurgus: prolly the one(s) in the lisp machine implementations if any
2021-01-01T06:41:33Z aeth: ck_: Except you have it backwards.
2021-01-01T06:42:02Z ck_: aeth: what part?
2021-01-01T06:42:54Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-01T06:43:05Z Lycurgus: also any string oriented like Hendry's MINT
2021-01-01T06:43:39Z aeth: You're talking about places where (= 12 (nth 8 (multiple-value-list (get-decoded-time)))) and talking about it like it's -12 while talking about (= -13 (nth 8 (multiple-value-list (get-decoded-time)))) like it's +13
2021-01-01T06:44:51Z moon-child: thmprover: something with hw-assisted gc and cons-aware cache algorithms
2021-01-01T06:46:22Z thmprover: Lycurgus: I don't know much about the Lisp Machines, is there some "toy model" describing their architecture?
2021-01-01T06:46:40Z ck_: aeth: so your point is that I got the lisp terminology wrong with respect to delta to UTC, and 24.1.4.1?
2021-01-01T06:47:00Z thmprover: moon-child: ah, well, I'm more interested in the theory side, gc and caching are very...applied...
2021-01-01T06:47:13Z thmprover: (applied, and useful)
2021-01-01T06:47:43Z Lycurgus: thmprover, unclear what you mean but wouldn't know. FWIU, the ancient archives have complete sources
2021-01-01T06:48:15Z Lycurgus: there's prolly a description of the lisp compiler somewhere
2021-01-01T06:48:38Z Lycurgus: OTOH, i have the MINT distro tape
2021-01-01T06:49:48Z thmprover: Lycurgus: I mean, something similar to the SECD machine, in the sense of simple and minimal while demonstrating the key parts of the instruction set for a Lisp Machine. (Or is that just an SECD machine?)
2021-01-01T06:49:50Z Lycurgus: and the book can apparently be gotten on amazon
2021-01-01T06:50:48Z Lycurgus: thmprover, FWIW here's my spin
2021-01-01T06:52:01Z Lycurgus: as an implementor, in practice either you want a real lisp machine to target or you will likely prefer a pragmatic approach to produce good code on
2021-01-01T06:52:11Z Lycurgus: implicitly defined target arches
2021-01-01T06:52:34Z Lycurgus: with something like an implied vm from that approach
2021-01-01T06:53:01Z Lycurgus: that's what I've mostly seen in implementations I looked into
2021-01-01T06:53:21Z Lycurgus: only did one a port of AKCL to OS/2
2021-01-01T06:53:31Z thmprover: Lycurgus, I completely agree with you; my curiosity was strictly academic.
2021-01-01T06:53:47Z Lycurgus: and used to build cmucl before sbcl
2021-01-01T06:54:26Z thmprover: I just wasn't sure if there was some "obvious virtual machine" like CAM/FAM/ZINC for ML, but for Lisp.
2021-01-01T06:54:48Z Lycurgus: there well may be more or less
2021-01-01T06:55:16Z Lycurgus: i.e. obviously the best after the review
2021-01-01T06:55:39Z Lycurgus: and as I stated there are categories
2021-01-01T06:56:43Z Lycurgus: eg (also) SNOBOL
2021-01-01T06:58:13Z Lycurgus: also there were/are user u programmable arches like the burroughs mid range series
2021-01-01T06:58:23Z beach: thmprover: For a theoretical machine to be applicable, you also need a very simple "Lisp" language.
2021-01-01T06:58:32Z Lycurgus: which had lisp compilers
2021-01-01T06:59:18Z reggie_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:00:10Z reggie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T07:00:18Z thmprover: Well, I know the SECD machine can be the target for a simple-ish Lisp compiler, which piqued my interest about what needs to be added to handle more complex Lisp constructs.
2021-01-01T07:00:27Z reggie_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:02:14Z reggie_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T07:03:18Z beach: thmprover: simple compiler, but also a very simple subset of what we think of as "Lisp" today.
2021-01-01T07:03:33Z beach: thmprover: I would think "Purely functional" to start with.
2021-01-01T07:04:39Z thmprover: beach: I should also mention, my curiosity really is strictly academic (for use in a case-study in compiler correctness)
2021-01-01T07:04:57Z thmprover: beach: so, simple Lisp is perfectly fine :)
2021-01-01T07:05:33Z ym555 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T07:06:09Z beach: thmprover: But then you are in trouble because 1. There is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp", and 2. The channel topic is Common Lisp.
2021-01-01T07:09:00Z thmprover: beach: trouble is my business ;) In all seriousness, I've been thinking about how to move from "A simple toy Scheme interpreter" to "A simple toy Common Lisp interpreter", what would need to change.
2021-01-01T07:09:25Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-01T07:10:38Z beach: thmprover: Common Lisp is such a complex language, in particular with lots of imperative constructs, that I am pretty sure that there is no simple abstract machine that will help, unless, of course, you accept that the result will be so slow that it's unusable.
2021-01-01T07:13:30Z saturn2 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:14:02Z saturn2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1)
2021-01-01T07:14:29Z thmprover: beach: like CLISP? Yeah, I have no illusions about performance, my goal is correctness. This is more an experiment with literate programming plus formal proofs, than a fancy new tool for production.
2021-01-01T07:15:03Z clone_of_saturn joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:15:04Z beach: Way worse than CLISP.
2021-01-01T07:15:19Z clone_of_saturn is now known as saturn2
2021-01-01T07:16:51Z beach: thmprover: For example, you could use Church numerals for integers.
2021-01-01T07:17:01Z beach: That's very simple.
2021-01-01T07:20:25Z thmprover: beach: true, but that may be too simple. I'm looking for a happy medium between the extremely simple pure lambda calculus VM, and the complicated real world.
2021-01-01T07:20:59Z beach: That's a very tough thing to help you with, because it is not obvious what is too simple and what is too complicated for you.
2021-01-01T07:22:23Z beach: thmprover: For instance, something like RISC-V or a tiny subset of x86-64 can run Common Lisp just fine.
2021-01-01T07:27:19Z thmprover: beach: well, as I understand it (and I don't fully), a Lisp Machine boiled down to a sort of virtual machine atop a Risc processor.
2021-01-01T07:29:10Z beach: Sort of.  I think it was a machine that could be microprogrammed.  But the Lisp machine was not designed to be simple.  It was designed to run Lisp efficiently, given the existing general-purpose processors and the compiler technology we had at the time.
2021-01-01T07:29:28Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T07:31:08Z beach: Take "CDR coding", for example.  It makes things horribly complicated for the only reason that memory was expensive at the time.
2021-01-01T07:32:33Z beach: Didn't it also have out-of-band tag bits?  Now, you can use the lower few bits of a 64-bit word without any problem, because machines are byte addressed, so there are more bits than you need.
2021-01-01T07:34:31Z alexshendi joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:35:15Z alexshendi: Hi! Good morning & happy new year.
2021-01-01T07:36:42Z beach: Hello alexshendi.  You too!
2021-01-01T07:37:35Z alexshendi: I am trying to build SBCL 2.1.0 under NetBSD/arm64. I have tried to bootstrap using ecl and abcl. Both ultimately fail in the warm init phase (make-target-2.sh).
2021-01-01T07:38:14Z thmprover: beach: right, and while "CDR coding" is an important optimization, it's not a necessary component for an "abstract Lisp machine". I suppose my lack of knowledge about Lisp Machines may be the crux of my [immediate] problem.
2021-01-01T07:38:20Z alexshendi: Which pastebin can I use for this channel?
2021-01-01T07:39:15Z beach: plaster.tymoon.edu
2021-01-01T07:39:32Z beach: er, eu, not edu
2021-01-01T07:39:37Z saturn2: i believe the lisp machine had special instructions for accessing the various lisp data types, so you didn't have to choose between speed and memory safety
2021-01-01T07:40:12Z beach: saturn2: So you mean there was no need to check the type?
2021-01-01T07:40:38Z beach: But checking the type is easy these days, and type inference often makes it not necessary.
2021-01-01T07:40:39Z saturn2: no need to emit extra instructions to do that, right
2021-01-01T07:40:56Z beach: Yes, so another complication in the name of speed.
2021-01-01T07:41:59Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-01T07:42:40Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:42:41Z alexshendi: https://pastebin.com/WKmWkBTd
2021-01-01T07:42:47Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:43:02Z alexshendi: Have already used pastebin.
2021-01-01T07:43:24Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:43:33Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:43:56Z alexshendi: Any suggestions? I have already explored different dynamic sizes...
2021-01-01T07:44:15Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:44:20Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:44:26Z alexshendi: TIA :)
2021-01-01T07:44:56Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:45:08Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:45:45Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:45:54Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:46:26Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:46:41Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:47:10Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:47:14Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:47:28Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:48:00Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:48:16Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:48:16Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T07:48:55Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:49:02Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:49:36Z solideogloria[m]: Has anyone here used the croatoan library >
2021-01-01T07:49:41Z solideogloria[m]:  * * Has anyone here used the croatoan library ?
2021-01-01T07:49:44Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:49:49Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:49:58Z solideogloria[m]: If yes, what exact character does the down keycode return ?
2021-01-01T07:50:25Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:50:35Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:51:06Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:51:22Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:51:55Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:52:09Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:52:50Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:52:55Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:53:30Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:53:42Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:54:19Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:54:28Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:55:00Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:55:18Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:55:34Z thmprover quit (Quit: Happy new year!)
2021-01-01T07:55:50Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:56:05Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:56:45Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:56:51Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:57:23Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:57:24Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:57:39Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:58:20Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:58:25Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:59:05Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:59:13Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T07:59:50Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T07:59:59Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:00:29Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:00:45Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:01:17Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:01:32Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:02:09Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:02:18Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:03:00Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:03:05Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:03:46Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:03:52Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:04:30Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:04:38Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:05:19Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:05:24Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:06:05Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:06:10Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:06:41Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:06:50Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:06:59Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:07:39Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:07:45Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:08:09Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:08:19Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:08:31Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:09:04Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:09:18Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:09:37Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:09:50Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:10:05Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:10:44Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:10:52Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:11:30Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:11:38Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:12:14Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:12:24Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:12:53Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:13:12Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:13:44Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:13:59Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:14:41Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:14:46Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:15:26Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:15:33Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:16:14Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:16:19Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:16:49Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:17:06Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:17:40Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:17:55Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:18:24Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:18:43Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:19:12Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:19:30Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:20:09Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:20:17Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:20:57Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:21:04Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:21:38Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:21:51Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:22:22Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:22:38Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:23:16Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:23:24Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:24:07Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:24:12Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:24:44Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:24:59Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:25:37Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:25:45Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:26:13Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:26:33Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:27:02Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:27:20Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:27:58Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:28:06Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:28:47Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:28:56Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:29:28Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-01T08:29:31Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:29:42Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:29:45Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:30:22Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:30:28Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:31:00Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:31:15Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:31:57Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:32:02Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:32:39Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:32:43Z lotuseater: solideogloria[m]: #\ARROW_DOWN maybe?
2021-01-01T08:32:48Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:33:27Z lotuseater: ah no, #\DOWNWARDS_ARROW is a valid char
2021-01-01T08:33:27Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:33:35Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:34:09Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:34:21Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:35:02Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:35:08Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:35:43Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:35:54Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:36:07Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T08:36:27Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:36:42Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:37:10Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:37:28Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:38:07Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:38:14Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:38:52Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:39:01Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:39:43Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:39:48Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:40:24Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:40:35Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:41:17Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:41:22Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:41:59Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:42:09Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:42:37Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:42:56Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:43:35Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:43:42Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:44:19Z jeosol: alexshendi: Are you trying to install a fresh SBCL?
2021-01-01T08:44:22Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:44:29Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:45:07Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:45:15Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:45:41Z alexshendi: jeosol: It's not in packages, so what alternative do I have?
2021-01-01T08:45:57Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:46:02Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:46:15Z alexshendi: jeosol: So, yes.
2021-01-01T08:46:34Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:46:49Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:47:22Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:47:37Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:48:09Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:48:15Z jeosol: I haven't installed on a NetBSD/arm64 before. What command are you running? There is also a #sbcl channel and the guys may be able to address this.
2021-01-01T08:48:24Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:48:31Z jeosol: which of the other implementation gave the error you linked in the pastebin?
2021-01-01T08:48:52Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:49:11Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:49:42Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:49:58Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:50:37Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:50:44Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:51:14Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:51:15Z alexshendi: I have already posted on on #sbcl, thanks.
2021-01-01T08:51:33Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:51:48Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:52:02Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:52:20Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:52:30Z alexshendi: Actually both. Note that the error isn't from the host lisp implementation, but from the sbcl binary that was built using it.
2021-01-01T08:52:49Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:53:07Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:53:48Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:53:53Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:54:34Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:54:39Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:55:20Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:55:25Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:55:45Z alexshendi: The error message in the pastebin is actually from a build using abcl.
2021-01-01T08:55:59Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:56:12Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:56:50Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:56:58Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:57:29Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:57:45Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:58:23Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:58:32Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:59:03Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T08:59:21Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T08:59:53Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T09:00:05Z Jach[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-01T09:00:08Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T09:00:44Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T09:00:55Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T09:01:33Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T09:01:42Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T09:02:16Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-01T09:02:16Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-01T09:02:16Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-01T09:05:36Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T09:06:20Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T09:06:53Z solideogloria[m]: <lotuseater "ah no, #\DOWNWARDS_ARROW is a va"> that is the unicode character ↓
2021-01-01T09:06:53Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T09:07:03Z solideogloria[m]: not what the terminal returns to the program
2021-01-01T09:08:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T09:11:52Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T09:14:45Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T09:15:40Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T09:24:40Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-01T09:42:33Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-01T09:44:30Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-01T09:52:39Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T09:54:33Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-01T09:57:25Z gproto23 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T09:57:38Z gproto23 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T10:05:07Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-01T10:07:04Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:08:56Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T10:10:18Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-01T10:10:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T10:14:03Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:15:14Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-01T10:15:29Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:18:49Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T10:18:58Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:19:24Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T10:19:24Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T10:20:25Z rotty joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:20:44Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:22:49Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T10:22:58Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:23:23Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T10:23:33Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:24:39Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T10:24:48Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:24:48Z minion joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:25:24Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T10:25:28Z specbot joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:25:33Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:26:32Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-01T10:26:49Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T10:26:59Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:31:27Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T10:31:36Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:32:49Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T10:32:57Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:33:51Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T10:34:00Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:37:37Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T10:37:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T10:37:41Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T10:37:49Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T10:37:49Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T10:37:51Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:37:52Z phoe: is there a version of Flavors that runs on modern Common Lisp implementations?
2021-01-01T10:38:05Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:38:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:39:50Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:40:41Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:42:36Z minion joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:43:15Z specbot joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:44:18Z scymtym__ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:45:59Z Krystof: beach: another thing about RMLL, at least as I recall it was implemented in our track, was that the plenary-type talks did not take up all that much time (1 day of the 4 or 5, perhaps) and so the rest of the time was spent however the delegates wanted... which led to some good hacking times
2021-01-01T10:46:03Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T10:47:14Z Krystof: it was also great because a bunch of us were able to meet in person for the first time.  I'd met dan_b before (I think) but those meetings were my first encounter with gilbert, eric marsden, marc battyani, tim daly, ...
2021-01-01T10:47:33Z Krystof: andreas fuchs, maybe?
2021-01-01T10:48:00Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:48:34Z beach: Krystof: Yes, I agree it was great.
2021-01-01T10:49:38Z beach: I don't think I had met any of those before, including you.
2021-01-01T10:50:58Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-01T10:54:16Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-01T10:54:39Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:56:18Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T10:56:58Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:57:13Z Krystof: and I had a great time!  I remember going to Bordeaux twice for RMLL, and somewhere else once, I think
2021-01-01T10:57:33Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T10:58:16Z beach: Yeah, I went to a few other places as well.  Dijon was one, and Metz.
2021-01-01T10:58:57Z beach: The entire idea was fantastic.  The first year there were less than 200 participants, as I recall, but it grew to more than 1000 pretty fast.
2021-01-01T11:01:18Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T11:01:25Z beach: It was just amazing to walk into the main entry hall of ENSERB and see all these people hacking away.
2021-01-01T11:01:29Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T11:02:18Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-01T11:03:39Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T11:04:11Z bilal_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T11:05:16Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T11:06:37Z bilalkhan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-01T11:06:59Z scymtym__ is now known as scymtym
2021-01-01T11:08:05Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-01T11:08:14Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-01T11:17:02Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-01T11:23:17Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-01T11:28:44Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-01T11:34:34Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T11:40:10Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T11:42:08Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-01T11:43:27Z sloanr joined #lisp
2021-01-01T11:43:51Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T11:49:11Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-01T11:55:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T11:55:36Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:00:10Z bilal__ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:00:52Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:03:03Z bilal_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T12:05:05Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T12:08:26Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T12:08:51Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:10:17Z Earendil_14 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:12:20Z ym555 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:13:08Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:13:53Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T12:14:09Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:15:19Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:24:49Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:32:16Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T12:34:13Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T12:35:47Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:38:27Z Inline__ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:38:46Z Inline quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-01T12:38:58Z Inline__ is now known as Inline
2021-01-01T12:39:10Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:39:56Z lotuseater quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-01T12:40:43Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-01T12:48:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T12:50:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:53:21Z ym555_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T12:55:41Z ym555_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T12:55:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T12:56:01Z ym555 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-01T13:01:12Z Inline__ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T13:01:12Z Inline__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T13:02:05Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-01T13:05:54Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-01-01T13:06:14Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T13:08:32Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-01T13:21:42Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-01T13:21:43Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-01T13:21:50Z zmagii: Anyone know about the Lean programming language?
2021-01-01T13:22:35Z phoe: what is it?
2021-01-01T13:23:01Z phoe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_(proof_assistant) this one you mean?
2021-01-01T13:25:53Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T13:29:10Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-01T13:31:25Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-01T13:31:30Z Earendil_14 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-01T13:31:53Z pagnol joined #lisp
2021-01-01T13:32:18Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-01T13:35:19Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T13:42:21Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-01T13:42:40Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-01T13:45:52Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-01T13:51:05Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T13:57:59Z Earendil_14 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T13:59:15Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp
2021-01-01T14:02:09Z Earendil_14 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T14:03:40Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-01T14:12:13Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-01T14:14:38Z murtagh joined #lisp
2021-01-01T14:15:18Z murtagh: Is it a good idea to read SICP .. If you have just learnt a little bit of C
2021-01-01T14:15:40Z beach: It could be overwhelming.
2021-01-01T14:15:45Z murtagh: How will learning Lisp help me?
2021-01-01T14:16:03Z alexshendi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T14:16:04Z beach: It depends on what you need help with.
2021-01-01T14:16:05Z murtagh: I mean what is lisp known for?
2021-01-01T14:16:42Z murtagh: Someone kinda bought SICP for me... So I wasnt sure if I should go with it?
2021-01-01T14:16:49Z beach: It is a great programming language.  But that might not be what it is "known for".
2021-01-01T14:17:01Z beach: OK, several things.
2021-01-01T14:17:06Z murtagh: So let me see how do I say..
2021-01-01T14:17:21Z murtagh: What do ppl here use lisp for?
2021-01-01T14:17:24Z beach: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, whereas SICP uses Scheme.
2021-01-01T14:17:31Z murtagh: Ohh
2021-01-01T14:17:52Z beach: But Scheme is a good idea to learn as well if you want to try something different from C.
2021-01-01T14:18:24Z murtagh: Yeah but what does Scheme focus on or Common Lisp
2021-01-01T14:18:25Z beach: People here use Common Lisp for all kinds of things.  It is a general-purpose programming language.
2021-01-01T14:18:30Z murtagh: Ohhh
2021-01-01T14:19:11Z murtagh: Could you give me a reason why ppl would use C and why would they use Scheme or Common Lisp
2021-01-01T14:19:43Z murtagh: Like why one over than another
2021-01-01T14:19:54Z beach: Globally speaking, C is closer to the machine, and Common Lisp is much better for writing applications.
2021-01-01T14:19:56Z sloanr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T14:20:02Z murtagh: But yeah I got it.. When you said general purpose language
2021-01-01T14:20:09Z murtagh: I see
2021-01-01T14:21:29Z beach: See the second quote of www.nhplace.com/kent/quoted.html for what Lisp is used for.
2021-01-01T14:22:36Z beach: C is a very unsafe language, whereas most Common Lisp implementations are safe by default.
2021-01-01T14:23:01Z murtagh: I see
2021-01-01T14:23:18Z murtagh: Is Common Lisp the most popular implementation of lisp?
2021-01-01T14:23:27Z murtagh: I mean more widely used?
2021-01-01T14:23:35Z Cthulhux: i think that would be scheme
2021-01-01T14:23:44Z phoe: "Lisp" is an overloaded term
2021-01-01T14:24:06Z Cthulhux: phoe: technically, ruby is a lisp..
2021-01-01T14:24:10Z beach: murtagh: There is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp", which is part of the reason why this channel is about Common Lisp, which is quite well defined.
2021-01-01T14:24:12Z phoe: Lisp is a whole family of languages, including dialects like Scheme, Racket, Common Lisp, Clojure, Shen, Hy, Lisp Flavored Erlang, and what else
2021-01-01T14:24:16Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T14:24:17Z murtagh: My end goal ofc is to make games no doubt
2021-01-01T14:24:20Z beach: Cthulhux: Please don't go there.
2021-01-01T14:24:30Z phoe: however you have wandered into #lisp which is a lair of Common Lisp programmers
2021-01-01T14:24:45Z phoe: ##lisp is a more general channel that is about all Lisp dialects
2021-01-01T14:24:54Z beach: murtagh: I believe there is a channel #lispgames that is dedicated to games in Common Lisp.
2021-01-01T14:24:55Z murtagh: Oh ok
2021-01-01T14:25:05Z murtagh: Kk
2021-01-01T14:25:06Z murtagh: Thanks
2021-01-01T14:25:17Z beach: Pleasure.  Good luck!
2021-01-01T14:25:21Z Xach: Furthermore, #lisp is the place where people who *like* common lisp congregate - not simply people who use it. It's not a support group for people who are forced to use it and hate it.
2021-01-01T14:25:38Z murtagh: Gotcha
2021-01-01T14:25:43Z Xach: Although those people do sometimes visit and ask for homework help
2021-01-01T14:26:01Z murtagh: What makes common lisp stand out.. From other lisps?
2021-01-01T14:26:21Z murtagh: I mean why do you guys like this impl for lisp
2021-01-01T14:26:25Z phoe: murtagh: it's a multiparadigm language meant for designing real-world applications
2021-01-01T14:26:34Z beach: murtagh: We just said that the term "Lisp" is not well defined.
2021-01-01T14:26:36Z phoe: I like its natural interactivity and livecoding
2021-01-01T14:27:43Z Xach: common lisp has a well-written standard, multiple mature implementations, the possibility of commercial support, examples of successful companies and applications with CL at their core (though not a zillion, they do exist), potential for fast code
2021-01-01T14:28:17Z Xach: if you like emacs, a nice development environment
2021-01-01T14:28:59Z Xach: i sometimes wish there were multiple multibillion-dollar companies racing to improve it, but then i think the result would not really be recognizable as the thing i like for very long.
2021-01-01T14:32:46Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-01T14:33:04Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-01T14:34:44Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-01T14:46:43Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T14:47:34Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-01T14:47:59Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-01-01T14:49:28Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-01T14:50:06Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-01T14:50:23Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T14:54:25Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-01T14:54:45Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-01T14:56:03Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T14:56:35Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-01T14:58:53Z VincentVega: Happy 2021, folks! A bit late to the party, but now that quickdocs is closed. what do you use? I just want to explore the existing projects. For emacs, there's MELPA which makes it easy as every project there has a very short description and you can search it.
2021-01-01T15:02:36Z contrapunctus: VincentVega: awesome-cl/cl-cookbook, but I'm just a newcomer. Would the querying functions of Quicklisp work?
2021-01-01T15:04:12Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T15:06:06Z VincentVega70 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T15:06:09Z VincentVega70 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T15:06:19Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-01-01T15:06:22Z Xach: quicklisp doesn't offer summary info
2021-01-01T15:06:34Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-01T15:06:44Z phoe: quickref
2021-01-01T15:07:49Z VincentVega: phoe: ok, looks good!
2021-01-01T15:08:09Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T15:09:09Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T15:09:19Z VincentVega: contrapunctus: thanks for awesome-cl, never heard of that one
2021-01-01T15:09:21Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-01T15:10:18Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T15:17:11Z birdwing quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T15:17:55Z ebrasca quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-01T15:25:58Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-01T15:29:59Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-01T15:31:31Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-01T15:33:20Z izh_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T15:37:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-01T15:37:50Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-01T15:37:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-01T15:44:25Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T15:48:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T15:52:49Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-01T15:55:15Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-01T15:55:20Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-01T15:56:31Z narimiran quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T15:57:22Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-01T15:57:45Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T16:00:06Z austincummings[m quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-01T16:00:41Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-01T16:00:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T16:00:42Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-01T16:00:50Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T16:02:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T16:03:16Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T16:06:11Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-01T16:08:08Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-01T16:14:27Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-01T16:15:03Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T16:16:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2021-01-01T16:20:59Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-01T16:27:36Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T16:27:48Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T16:31:16Z VincentVega quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T16:38:22Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-01T16:42:01Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-01T16:49:37Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-01T16:50:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T16:50:25Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:06:15Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:06:35Z pve: Hi! Is there a CL implementation that you would recommend for a Raspberry Pi?
2021-01-01T17:07:18Z Xach: pve: i have run sbcl and ccl, but not used them enough to endorse either one, sorry
2021-01-01T17:07:25Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-01T17:09:27Z pve: Xach: ok thanks.. my main concern is whether sbcl or ccl are too heavyweight
2021-01-01T17:10:07Z pve: so I was thinking maybe ECL would be a good fit
2021-01-01T17:10:44Z pve: at least I'm under the impression that ECL is a bit more lightweight
2021-01-01T17:10:50Z Xach: pve: i would seriously try ccl before ecl
2021-01-01T17:11:28Z pve: Xach: hmm ok, never really tried ccl before in any serious capacity
2021-01-01T17:12:23Z beach: pve: You could ask no-defun-allowed.
2021-01-01T17:12:45Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-01T17:13:10Z beach: pve: Not here at the moment.  You would have to ask in #sicl.
2021-01-01T17:15:12Z pve: beach: alright, will do, thanks
2021-01-01T17:15:51Z Xach: pve: did you have a specific task in mind?
2021-01-01T17:16:52Z aldessa joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:19:30Z pve: Xach: not really, would just like to play around with it for now
2021-01-01T17:19:31Z Josh_2: Ello
2021-01-01T17:21:37Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:22:28Z pve: at some point I'd like to give one to my son, but I fear he's still a bit too young for CL :)
2021-01-01T17:23:16Z dra joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:27:29Z lotuseater: i wish someone would have shown me all this stuff with 6
2021-01-01T17:28:19Z luni left #lisp
2021-01-01T17:28:26Z dra quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T17:32:58Z aeth: pve: https://borodust.org/projects/trivial-gamekit/
2021-01-01T17:33:13Z murtagh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T17:33:15Z aeth: pve: Probably too low-level but you could probably hack together some 80s-style 2D game that he can just modify
2021-01-01T17:33:22Z v0|d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T17:34:11Z pve: aeth: hey cool!
2021-01-01T17:38:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T17:39:07Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:41:12Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:42:00Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T17:42:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:42:40Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T17:42:42Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:43:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:43:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T17:43:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:43:23Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T17:43:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:43:44Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T17:46:39Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:47:24Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:48:08Z aldessa quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-01T17:48:16Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T17:48:28Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:50:20Z shka_: aeth: how cool!
2021-01-01T17:51:39Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T17:53:32Z phoe: We have CL:CONSTANTP that accepts a Lisp form and a lexical environment, and answers true or false. Is it generally possible to have a hypothetical CONSTANT-VALUE operator that produces a value off a form that has been declared constant by CONSTANTP?
2021-01-01T17:57:28Z jackdaniel: phoe: yes
2021-01-01T17:57:50Z jackdaniel: i.e ecl's compiler has a function constant-value-p which returns two values: whether it is a constant, and if it is, the second value the value
2021-01-01T17:58:11Z phoe: oh! perfect
2021-01-01T17:59:19Z jackdaniel: see src/cmp/cmpopt-constant.lsp if you are interested about details
2021-01-01T18:02:02Z aeth: phoe: Portably, I guess could do something like this, which doesn't have an environment, but I think the only portable DEFCONSTANT is global, anyway: (and (constantp '+foo+) (symbol-value '+foo+))
2021-01-01T18:02:28Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-01T18:03:03Z phoe: aeth: portably, yes, but if an implementation answers that e.g. '(+ 1 2) is CONSTANTP, then it should be able to fetch that value
2021-01-01T18:03:08Z phoe: for use e.g. inside compiler macros
2021-01-01T18:03:28Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-01T18:03:28Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T18:03:33Z phoe: I'm asking because I'm verifying my comment at https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/kob7hd/compiler_macros_when_why_how_and_real_life/
2021-01-01T18:03:37Z jackdaniel: constant may be defined in the compilation unit (but not really evaluated), that's another gotcha (then symbol-value won't work)
2021-01-01T18:03:39Z aeth: Well, then you just branch on symbolp...
2021-01-01T18:04:17Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T18:05:14Z phoe: okay - what do I do in the non-symbol branch though?
2021-01-01T18:06:06Z phoe: that's where the hypothetical CONSTANT-VALUE function comes into play, but I have no idea if there even exists a portalib for it
2021-01-01T18:06:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T18:06:39Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T18:08:31Z aeth: phoe: maybe something like this? (if (and (symbolp foo) (constantp foo)) #| the fast path using (symbol-value foo) |# #| the slow path |#)
2021-01-01T18:09:02Z phoe: basically https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/553c0f25f38b2b0d5922ca7b4f62f09eb85ace1c/level-1/l1-utils.lisp#L680-L684
2021-01-01T18:09:07Z jackdaniel: you need a codewalker to analyae the lexenv too
2021-01-01T18:09:18Z phoe: CCL does not seem to recognize '(+ 1 2) as CONSTANTP, so that is going to work
2021-01-01T18:09:22Z jackdaniel: hence portable library does not exist
2021-01-01T18:09:27Z aeth: well, no, the codewalker will fail because you don't know what's going on
2021-01-01T18:09:32Z aeth: well, a portable one, at least
2021-01-01T18:09:36Z aeth: If you see a + it could be anything.
2021-01-01T18:09:57Z jackdaniel: you can't redefine cl functions
2021-01-01T18:09:58Z aeth: Well, I guess not because CL:+ is package-locked in SBCL and perhaps other implementations.
2021-01-01T18:10:06Z phoe: aeth: it can't be anything
2021-01-01T18:10:07Z aeth: But in general, you don't know what's going on.
2021-01-01T18:10:21Z phoe: CL functions must not be frebound
2021-01-01T18:11:21Z phoe: still, this gives me idea for writing a portalib that fills exactly this gap
2021-01-01T18:11:50Z aeth: phoe: That doesn't help the general case, only with CL:+, which was poorly chosen on my part. Unless the package you're using is package locked. It looks like Alexandria has this... #+sb-package-locks (:lock t)
2021-01-01T18:11:56Z phoe: I remember heisig complaining about this some time ago, too.
2021-01-01T18:12:09Z phoe: aeth: the general case is that I have a form, and an implementation tells me that this form is CONSTANTP
2021-01-01T18:12:11Z aeth: Idk which implementations other than SBCL implement the feature sb-package-locks, though
2021-01-01T18:12:24Z phoe: I want to get the value of that CONSTANTP form
2021-01-01T18:12:43Z phoe: possibly using implementation-dependent functionality, because it's required in the general case
2021-01-01T18:12:49Z aeth: phoe: If it's a symbol, then symbol-value, otherwise tree-walk or just slow-path.
2021-01-01T18:13:06Z aeth: But a tree-walk only works if it's package locked, otherwise it could stand for anything.
2021-01-01T18:14:35Z phoe: I don't want to manually tree-walk, I want the implementation to tell me the value
2021-01-01T18:14:55Z phoe: and so far it seems that SBCL, CCL, and ECL have functionalities for that
2021-01-01T18:15:02Z aeth: eval?
2021-01-01T18:15:11Z phoe: which means that creating a portalib for that would be viable.
2021-01-01T18:15:11Z aeth: Would eval work?
2021-01-01T18:15:14Z phoe: hmmmm
2021-01-01T18:15:17Z phoe: no
2021-01-01T18:15:27Z aeth: ah, no environment, unlike in Scheme
2021-01-01T18:15:30Z phoe: because EVAL takes no environment argument
2021-01-01T18:15:45Z aeth: In Scheme it does. :-)
2021-01-01T18:15:46Z phoe: the fact that a form is constant in some env doesn't mean it's constant in a null env
2021-01-01T18:19:19Z aeth: phoe: I guess SYMBOLP is the only thing you can do portably for the portable path, then? Since that's just global. i.e. (and (symbolp '+foo+) (constantp '+foo+)) then (symbol-value '+foo+)
2021-01-01T18:19:37Z phoe: yes
2021-01-01T18:27:49Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T18:28:24Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-01T18:31:28Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-01T18:32:05Z jackdaniel: you can't do that
2021-01-01T18:32:15Z jackdaniel: symbol-value does not accept the environment
2021-01-01T18:32:21Z jackdaniel: (constantp does)
2021-01-01T18:32:50Z jackdaniel: in other words you query the runtime, not the compilation unit symbol
2021-01-01T18:43:04Z jurov_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T18:46:28Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-01T18:46:28Z slyrus_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T18:47:01Z slyrus joined #lisp
2021-01-01T18:48:40Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T18:51:43Z jurov joined #lisp
2021-01-01T18:52:00Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-01T18:52:01Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-01T18:55:27Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-01T19:05:25Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-01T19:05:50Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:07:32Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:07:46Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:08:01Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-01T19:10:03Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:10:15Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:10:38Z MetaYan: The sb-cga issue that's been causing many failures in the Quicklisp reports now has a fix: https://github.com/nikodemus/sb-cga/pull/8 . Does anyone here have the possibility to merge it?
2021-01-01T19:11:20Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-01T19:13:11Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:14:14Z andreyorst_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T19:14:51Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:18:07Z xsperry joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:22:04Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:29:06Z andreyorst_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T19:30:14Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:31:54Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-01T19:34:14Z andreyorst_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T19:35:29Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:35:29Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:36:45Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-01T19:40:04Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-01T19:41:28Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:42:07Z luna_is_here quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 210 seconds.)
2021-01-01T19:45:53Z bendersteed joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:46:24Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:47:56Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T19:48:50Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:50:56Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T19:51:39Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:54:29Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:55:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-01T19:58:56Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-01T20:07:40Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T20:08:15Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-01T20:10:02Z rogersm quit
2021-01-01T20:12:06Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-01T20:12:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T20:12:47Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-01T20:13:03Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-01T20:15:58Z jjong quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T20:26:16Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T20:26:59Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-01T20:33:35Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T20:33:47Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T20:33:47Z h1xhk1xo joined #lisp
2021-01-01T20:34:27Z h1xhk1xo quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-01T20:38:49Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T20:41:48Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T20:42:47Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T20:43:20Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-01T20:43:47Z jw4 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T20:54:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T20:54:21Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T20:55:04Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T20:55:30Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T20:55:44Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T20:57:25Z jw4 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T21:02:14Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:02:56Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:03:11Z jw4 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:03:16Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-01T21:04:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T21:10:54Z makomo: does anyone have a recommendation for a library that implements a mutable ordered set?
2021-01-01T21:11:15Z phoe: funny, I was thinking about ordered hash tables some time ago
2021-01-01T21:11:45Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:11:52Z makomo: it's a bit annoying how fragmented the ecosystem is when it comes to data structures :/
2021-01-01T21:11:58Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-01T21:12:30Z shka_: slyrus: i just rewrote select stuff
2021-01-01T21:12:36Z Alfr: phoe, how would that work?
2021-01-01T21:12:41Z shka_: it was way more complex then useful
2021-01-01T21:12:55Z makomo: Alfr: i suppose phoe meant ordered dictionaries/maps
2021-01-01T21:13:08Z shka_: makomo: skip-list would do?
2021-01-01T21:13:19Z phoe: Alfr: like Java's LinkedHashSet
2021-01-01T21:13:50Z makomo: shka_: i've taken a look at cl-data-structures :-), and was just about to ask you a bit about it. does the set interface have just those 3 functions? what about unions, intersections, differences?
2021-01-01T21:14:06Z shka_: yeah, they are missing :(
2021-01-01T21:14:16Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:14:18Z shka_: which is a shame, because i planned to add it
2021-01-01T21:14:39Z shka_: skip-lists are the best data structures for intersections actually
2021-01-01T21:15:10Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:15:24Z Alfr: phoe, ah okay. It's insertion order, not inventing some H respecting < for every problem. Didn't know about it, thanks.
2021-01-01T21:16:16Z shka_: makomo: i certainly want to add unions, intersection and difference, i just didn't manage to get to it yet
2021-01-01T21:17:34Z makomo: shka_: mhm, i see. do you know of any other libraries that provide a mutable set?
2021-01-01T21:17:49Z shka_: nope, sorry
2021-01-01T21:18:13Z makomo: it's really weird to me that such a thing is impossible to find in CL :(
2021-01-01T21:20:11Z shka_: i know
2021-01-01T21:21:24Z shka_: if you want to contribute to the development of cl-ds, you are encouraged to implement the set intersection for skip-lists ;-)
2021-01-01T21:22:52Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:23:53Z rogersm quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-01T21:27:39Z makomo: shka_: is there some sort of reference that you used while implementing the skip-list-based set or?
2021-01-01T21:29:38Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-01T21:31:08Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:31:40Z shka_: hmmm, i think that i did this by the book
2021-01-01T21:32:38Z shka_: it is not particularly complex data structures, erase proved to be the most difficult part
2021-01-01T21:34:18Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-01T21:36:00Z thmprover joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:39:08Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:42:23Z makomo: shka_: any book in particular or did you just "wing it" from memory? ;)
2021-01-01T21:42:53Z shka_: makomo: by the book i meant the original article
2021-01-01T21:43:01Z shka_: describing the skip-list
2021-01-01T21:43:30Z shka_: but honestly, after you get the basic property of the one into your head, you can figure out the rest
2021-01-01T21:43:37Z shka_: *node
2021-01-01T21:44:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T21:44:32Z shka_: which is distinctly different to the tree balancing :-)
2021-01-01T21:45:08Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:45:17Z shka_: and RB-trees are the worst
2021-01-01T21:45:43Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-01T21:46:47Z makomo: aha, i see
2021-01-01T21:46:55Z makomo: re rb-trees: for sure ;)
2021-01-01T21:48:03Z mfiano: what about rb-trees?
2021-01-01T21:48:25Z shka_: mfiano: they are PITA to implement
2021-01-01T21:48:35Z shka_: and equally PITA to understand
2021-01-01T21:48:36Z mfiano: balancing red-black trees is quite easy compared to other rebalancing such as AVL/WAVL
2021-01-01T21:49:15Z shka_: yeah, all autoabalancing trees are a mess
2021-01-01T21:49:16Z mfiano: Also, all self-balancing trees can be written in terms of 2 functions split and join, with the rest of the code shared among all implementations.
2021-01-01T21:49:38Z shka_: in theory :P
2021-01-01T21:49:45Z mfiano: Not in theory :)
2021-01-01T21:50:31Z shka_: seriously, internet is full of slightly broken RB trees implementations
2021-01-01T21:51:07Z shka_: anyway, good night all
2021-01-01T21:51:29Z mfiano: Maybe people should write tests to ensure the invariants. The algorithm is quite simple
2021-01-01T21:51:39Z mfiano: Just pick up a copy of CLRS and translate the pseudo code to Lisp
2021-01-01T21:51:54Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:52:00Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-01T21:52:19Z mfiano: Also, for the split/join awesomeness, have a read this paper which is what I did for RB/AVL: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1602.02120.pdf
2021-01-01T21:52:45Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T21:56:35Z mfiano: I guess I recalled incorrectly: "all code except JOINisgeneric across the balancing schemes
2021-01-01T21:56:37Z mfiano: "
2021-01-01T21:58:45Z contrapunctus: I'm trying to write a Gemini CGI script. (I'm new to Gemini, web programming, _and_ CL. 😅) This is not a long-running application - does the "connect to remote Lisp image" workflow still make sense for it? 🤔
2021-01-01T21:59:33Z shka_: contrapunctus: i honestly don't understand your question, but connecting to the remote lisp is normally very useful
2021-01-01T22:00:08Z Xach: What is Gemini?
2021-01-01T22:00:40Z contrapunctus: Xach: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/
2021-01-01T22:01:26Z contrapunctus: shka_: most of the examples I've seen for remote interaction have been of programs with a constant event loop of sorts running.
2021-01-01T22:02:21Z shka_: contrapunctus: well, for what is worth i used to connect to the remote server with a decent hardware resources to crunch some data
2021-01-01T22:02:36Z shka_: no event loop involved
2021-01-01T22:02:49Z shka_: anyway, if you need to be on a remote server, then connect
2021-01-01T22:02:59Z shka_: easy
2021-01-01T22:04:44Z contrapunctus: shka_: what did your workflow look like? Start remote SBCL (running swank), create SSH tunnel, and M-x slime-connect, each time you want to work on it? 🤔
2021-01-01T22:04:58Z shka_: yeah, exactly that
2021-01-01T22:05:18Z shka_: also, set up emacs for easier debugging
2021-01-01T22:06:01Z shka_: oh, and i simply never disconnecting
2021-01-01T22:06:02Z luna_is_here quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T22:06:08Z shka_: *never did disconnecting
2021-01-01T22:06:27Z contrapunctus: And then I imagine you load your script into the remote image. Hm...
2021-01-01T22:06:35Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-01T22:07:06Z shka_: or just compile with C-c C-c
2021-01-01T22:07:10Z shka_: in emacs
2021-01-01T22:08:13Z shka_: it will send the it via the ssh tunnel and swank connection into the remote lisp
2021-01-01T22:08:26Z shka_: and use TRAMP for editing
2021-01-01T22:08:57Z shka_: eshell also works via tramp, same for magit
2021-01-01T22:09:05Z contrapunctus: Yeah...
2021-01-01T22:09:06Z shka_: so in summary, it was pretty nice
2021-01-01T22:09:21Z shka_: i recomend
2021-01-01T22:09:25Z shka_: anyway
2021-01-01T22:09:27Z shka_: bye!
2021-01-01T22:09:45Z contrapunctus: thanks, ciao
2021-01-01T22:09:46Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-01T22:10:17Z bendersteed quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-01T22:11:28Z benjamindc: When I try to load my asd file I get an error: Execution of a form compiled with errors. Form: ("alexandria"). But when I prefix defsystem with asdf (e.g. asdf:defsystem), I don't get that error. But I see that it's standard not to use the prefix on code that I see on github. What am I doing wrong?
2021-01-01T22:11:52Z Xach: benjamindc: don't try to use LOAD to load system files.
2021-01-01T22:12:07Z easye quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T22:12:11Z Xach: benjamindc: asdf:load-asd will work better
2021-01-01T22:12:32Z benjamindc: wonderful, that works. Thanks Xach
2021-01-01T22:12:43Z Xach: Also, I wouldn't say it's standard not to use the prefix - that is a way around the very problem you have.
2021-01-01T22:15:50Z benjamindc: Now I'm having the problem that when i run (asdf:test-system "systemname"), rove runs successfully, but doesn't run any tests.
2021-01-01T22:16:06Z benjamindc: I get "All 0 tests passed."
2021-01-01T22:17:16Z semz joined #lisp
2021-01-01T22:17:22Z benjamindc: I'm using the :package-inferred-system class
2021-01-01T22:17:25Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-01T22:17:53Z frodef: 'evening
2021-01-01T22:17:59Z benjamindc: Hey frodef
2021-01-01T22:18:22Z Xach: I don't know about that, sorry. I'm not familiar with rove.
2021-01-01T22:18:40Z frodef: is there a good idiom for detecting the presence of any duplicates in a list?
2021-01-01T22:19:03Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T22:19:04Z frodef: I have, basically, (= (length list) (remove-duplicates list))
2021-01-01T22:19:38Z Xach: frodef: is there any other interesting property of the list that might be exploited?
2021-01-01T22:19:46Z frodef: .. (length (remove-dupl ...)) that is.
2021-01-01T22:19:51Z skapate joined #lisp
2021-01-01T22:19:57Z Xach: (it's not a sorted list of integers, is it?)
2021-01-01T22:20:12Z skapata quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-01T22:20:22Z skapate is now known as skapata
2021-01-01T22:20:23Z frodef: no, the elements are rudimentary datastructures, really.
2021-01-01T22:21:10Z frodef: so there's a :TEST in there that I didn't put in explicitly.
2021-01-01T22:21:54Z Xach: a table would be faster but longer to make - i can't think of a well-known short idiom
2021-01-01T22:22:22Z frodef: ok, thanks, I was just getting this feeling I was missing something obvious :)
2021-01-01T22:22:37Z Xach: i might be missing something obvious too :~(
2021-01-01T22:22:47Z frodef: nah.. ;)
2021-01-01T22:24:01Z Xach: alexandria:has-duplicates-p
2021-01-01T22:24:08Z Xach: (does not exist)
2021-01-01T22:24:41Z frodef: In terms of efficiency I could easily whip up a simple loop, but I don't think it would be more readable/idiomatic.
2021-01-01T22:24:48Z semz: why not just write a helper function
2021-01-01T22:24:50Z phoe: frodef: duplicates under which test?
2021-01-01T22:25:05Z semz: would probably be clearer than an idiom
2021-01-01T22:25:16Z phoe: if it's eq or eql or equal or equalp I just add them into a hash table and return NIL if there's a FOUNDP
2021-01-01T22:25:19Z phoe: otherwise return T
2021-01-01T22:25:24Z frodef: phoe: general duplicates under any (provided) test.
2021-01-01T22:25:32Z phoe: no idea then
2021-01-01T22:25:51Z frodef: expected list-size in my case is about 2-4, so ... no hash-table :)
2021-01-01T22:26:06Z semz: If a function converts something to a string, is it ever a disadvantage if the resulting string has a fill pointer? I find the function much easier to write using FPs and feel it'd be silly to copy the entire thing just to end up with a simple-string.
2021-01-01T22:26:49Z phoe: semz: mostly speed I think, some code is more performant if it knows that it works on simple strings
2021-01-01T22:27:34Z frodef: semz: I can do a helper function, just that if there's already such a function or idiom, that'd be better.
2021-01-01T22:28:32Z Xach: semz: yeah, working on arrays with fill pointers is slower in general. if a consumer cares, it would have to convert.
2021-01-01T22:28:49Z Xach: it depends on the situation
2021-01-01T22:29:57Z semz: fwiw the array isn't adjustable
2021-01-01T22:30:05Z semz: still relevant?
2021-01-01T22:30:10Z mfiano: Yes
2021-01-01T22:30:13Z Xach: semz: yes
2021-01-01T22:30:14Z semz: grr
2021-01-01T22:30:18Z mfiano: It is no longer a simple-array if it has a fill-pointer
2021-01-01T22:30:32Z mfiano: and therefor not a simple-string, or perhaps even a simple-base-string
2021-01-01T22:31:29Z Xach: It can still be the right choice for you! It just helps to be aware that it's not without drawbacks.
2021-01-01T22:31:59Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T22:36:15Z phoe: CONSTANTP question: could someone provide me an example where the &environment argument passed to CONSTANTP matters? Like, where it changes the actual outcome of the function?
2021-01-01T22:37:33Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-01T22:37:46Z frodef: I guess an env could hold e.g. a symbol-macro that transforms a symbol to e.g an integer?
2021-01-01T22:38:39Z phoe: right, this is one example
2021-01-01T22:41:13Z frodef: duplicates-p: (loop for x = (pop list) while list thereis (find x list :test ...))
2021-01-01T22:41:17Z mfiano: phoe: http://random-state.net/log/3340101644.html
2021-01-01T22:41:31Z phoe: mfiano: gasp
2021-01-01T22:41:45Z phoe: thank you
2021-01-01T22:43:05Z frodef: ... (loop while list thereis (find (pop list) list :test test :key key))
2021-01-01T22:45:31Z Xach: frodef: points for brevity if not efficiency
2021-01-01T22:46:20Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-01T22:47:45Z frodef: Xach: hm.. can't really see a more efficient (general) solution, can you?
2021-01-01T22:48:08Z semz: (cons x y) has duplicates iff y contains x or y contains duplicates, so it's enough to check cdrs
2021-01-01T22:48:24Z semz: cuts the run time in half
2021-01-01T22:48:40Z semz: assuming of course that your test is symmetric
2021-01-01T22:50:17Z semz: but afaik most built-in functions barf when given asymmetric tests anyway
2021-01-01T22:50:18Z frodef: semz: I don't follow, really..?
2021-01-01T22:51:35Z semz: once you've checked for 1 in '(1 2 3), there's no need to check 2 against all of '(1 2 3) again because (test 2 1) = (test 1 2) was already done earlier
2021-01-01T22:51:56Z Xach: it popped the earlier entry
2021-01-01T22:52:07Z Xach: frodef: i bet i was too hasty, i'll think more about it
2021-01-01T22:52:14Z semz: there's no need to pop
2021-01-01T22:52:24Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-01T22:54:04Z semz: (loop for x on list thereis (find (car x) (cdr x) ...)) should do the trick
2021-01-01T22:54:38Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-01T22:54:56Z semz: or member, rather than find
2021-01-01T22:55:00Z frodef: semz: that is pretty much the same, though probably less confusing.
2021-01-01T22:55:12Z semz: oh i see
2021-01-01T22:55:26Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-01T22:55:33Z frodef: semz: the penny popped? :)
2021-01-01T22:55:35Z semz: yeah i was the one who misread, sorry
2021-01-01T22:55:57Z Xach: i like that formulation
2021-01-01T22:56:01Z semz: i'm going to shamelessly use this as an argument that my solution trips less people up :-)
2021-01-01T22:56:18Z frodef: semz: I tend to agree :)
2021-01-01T22:59:21Z Xach: you could tweak it slightly to (loop for (item . rest) on list thereis (find item rest ...))?
2021-01-01T22:59:37Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-01T23:07:23Z shqsh00q joined #lisp
2021-01-01T23:08:15Z shqsh00q quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-01T23:08:40Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-01T23:13:06Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-01T23:13:37Z benjamindc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T23:14:27Z jibanes joined #lisp
2021-01-01T23:21:19Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-01T23:25:01Z zulu-inuoe_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T23:27:18Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-01T23:27:43Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-01T23:28:25Z zulu-inuoe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-01T23:38:13Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-01T23:44:29Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-01T23:50:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-01T23:53:33Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-01T23:55:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-01T23:55:34Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-01T23:55:52Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-02T00:00:38Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T00:03:42Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-02T00:04:24Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-02T00:05:00Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-02T00:10:38Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-02T00:27:48Z emacsomancer joined #lisp
2021-01-02T00:27:51Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T00:33:23Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-02T00:33:32Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-02T00:37:19Z charles`: When I call "error" it only give me the abort option. if I want options like "continue" or "retry", do I have to make my own condition?
2021-01-02T00:37:47Z frodef: charles`: you have to make your own restarts, rather.
2021-01-02T00:39:34Z frodef: for example: (with-simple-restart (continue "Never mind.") (error "I don't know what to do!"))
2021-01-02T00:41:17Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T00:42:18Z Nilby: You can also use cerror if you only want continue.
2021-01-02T00:44:22Z frodef: right, cerror is basically the same as above.
2021-01-02T00:44:25Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-02T00:44:40Z charles`: Thank you a lot
2021-01-02T00:45:54Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-02T00:46:29Z frodef: retry: (loop until (with-simple-restart (retry "Have another go") .. (error "huh?") ... (compute-non-nil-value)))
2021-01-02T00:47:48Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-02T00:52:09Z jjong joined #lisp
2021-01-02T00:54:19Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-02T00:55:13Z charles`: and "restart-case" is the right way to define custom restarts
2021-01-02T00:58:39Z frodef: w-s-restart often does the trick, but sometimes restart-case or even restart-bind is the way to go.
2021-01-02T00:59:52Z charles`: and what if I want to use my custom ones with the default continue, should I nest them?
2021-01-02T01:01:32Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-02T01:01:55Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:03:02Z Nilby: If you call a restart ‘continue’ it's the same as the default.
2021-01-02T01:03:31Z matryoshka` joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:03:42Z matryoshka quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T01:04:42Z aorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-02T01:05:11Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T01:06:13Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T01:06:32Z frodef: The function CONTINUE will go to the innermost restart called continue. But any decent interactive debugger will let you chose which exact restart (inner or outer) you want.
2021-01-02T01:07:33Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:07:53Z frodef: programmatically, see COMPUTE-RESTARTS. You can invoke any one of them, regardless of what they are named.
2021-01-02T01:08:48Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:09:24Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T01:09:53Z matryoshka` quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-02T01:10:13Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:10:16Z charles`: so a restart is not much more than a dynamically bound function?
2021-01-02T01:10:50Z frodef: exactly, it's not very magic at all.
2021-01-02T01:12:24Z charles`: And what is the proper way to define them: RESTART-CASE or RESTART-BIND?
2021-01-02T01:12:43Z frodef: The magic is just in the framework, or the ideas behind it. Having proper restarts available can make or a beautiful system.
2021-01-02T01:12:57Z Nilby: but dynamically bound functions are a bit magic, especially in compiled code.
2021-01-02T01:12:57Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:13:35Z frodef: ... make for ...
2021-01-02T01:14:19Z frodef: Usually RESTART-CASE, but RESTART-BIND if your restart would benefit from the dynamic context of the error.
2021-01-02T01:14:37Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T01:14:52Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-02T01:15:12Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:15:13Z frodef: ...much like HANDLER-BIND vs. HANDLER-CASE.
2021-01-02T01:16:30Z frodef: These are really some of the most profoundly and uniquely beautiful corners of CL, IHMO.
2021-01-02T01:17:17Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-02T01:17:35Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:19:12Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-02T01:19:35Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:20:50Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T01:21:03Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:22:00Z vhost- joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:22:15Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:22:15Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-02T01:22:15Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:22:45Z matryoshka` joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:22:49Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-02T01:24:15Z matryoshka` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T01:24:38Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:27:25Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-02T01:27:28Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-02T01:27:45Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:29:26Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T01:30:32Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:35:28Z jjong quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T01:37:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:42:48Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:43:24Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T01:44:25Z GuerrillaMonkey joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:45:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:48:16Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T01:48:46Z junkicide joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:49:52Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T01:50:10Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-02T01:52:42Z GuerrillaMonkey quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T01:53:08Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T01:57:22Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-02T01:59:44Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:00:34Z jjong joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:13:33Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T02:14:34Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T02:17:33Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:19:01Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:20:37Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T02:21:45Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T02:23:44Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:32:41Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:33:13Z bilegeek_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:34:32Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T02:36:02Z bilegeek quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T02:37:41Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:37:49Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:39:38Z charles`: if CONTINUE can be used to continue, what can be used to retry
2021-01-02T02:40:41Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:41:26Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-02T02:42:39Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:43:23Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T02:44:02Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:46:28Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T02:47:59Z semz joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:48:29Z no-defun-allowed joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:55:31Z choegusung joined #lisp
2021-01-02T02:58:16Z junkicide quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-02T03:00:14Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-02T03:00:17Z pagnol joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:01:07Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:07:35Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-02T03:08:16Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T03:08:59Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:11:06Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-02T03:11:22Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:12:04Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-02T03:12:11Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:12:27Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:21:30Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T03:24:27Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-02T03:24:48Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:27:17Z zulu-inuoe__ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:27:45Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-02T03:28:03Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:29:39Z murtagh joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:30:12Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-02T03:30:33Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:30:56Z zulu-inuoe_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T03:35:32Z KREYREEN quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T03:35:55Z KREYREEN joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:38:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T03:38:55Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:39:33Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:40:59Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T03:41:38Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-02T03:43:16Z vhost- joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:45:24Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:48:59Z GuerrillaMonkey joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:49:50Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T03:52:31Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-02T03:53:42Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-02T03:55:40Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T03:55:42Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T03:56:16Z GuerrillaMonkey quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T03:57:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-02T03:57:13Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T03:58:34Z oni-on-ion: good morning happy new year !
2021-01-02T03:58:52Z oni-on-ion: (still current here)
2021-01-02T03:59:40Z beach: Thanks.  You too!
2021-01-02T03:59:57Z GuerrillaMonkey joined #lisp
2021-01-02T04:00:05Z sauvin: Ubuntu installed a pile of cl-* files when I installed Common Lisp but I have no idea how to load or use them. Figuring out how to use them is my problem, but could anybody help me with using them and/or with a package manager? Quicklisp doesn't seem to like gcl.
2021-01-02T04:01:05Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T04:02:44Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T04:03:00Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know how to use the Ubuntu (or Debian) packages (though you could always try locate to find them), but you probably don't want to use GCL these days.
2021-01-02T04:03:14Z contrapunctus: sauvin: by 'installed Common Lisp' do you mean installed gcl? What did gcl say that makes you think that Quicklisp doesn't like it?
2021-01-02T04:03:32Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T04:03:42Z aeth: I'm not an Ubuntu expert, but you generally don't use the distro packages for languages that have their own package manager. They're mostly for dependencies of things that the distro ships, like e.g. Maxima.
2021-01-02T04:03:48Z aeth: Or maybe pgloader. Or whatever else a distro might ship.
2021-01-02T04:04:13Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, looking at the file listings, they are stored in /usr/share/common-lisp/source/ but I don't know what you do with them. If you installed ASDF from the package manager, it might know to search there for systems, or it might not.
2021-01-02T04:04:15Z aeth: If GCL isn't complete enough to run Quicklisp, it probably can't run any of the libraries, either. e.g. I think its CLOS is incomplete.
2021-01-02T04:05:26Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T04:05:45Z sauvin: contrapunctus, it won't load the quicklisp.quicklisp in /usr/share/..../quicklisp, complaining about ASDF.
2021-01-02T04:06:52Z sauvin: aeth, what you're saying is familiar to a perl person. I'll take the risk, but I'd really like to check out this pile of cl-* files that Ubuntu put on the hard drive but I'm at a loss for loading.
2021-01-02T04:07:07Z sauvin: The form (require "asdf") failes.
2021-01-02T04:08:11Z sauvin: The gcl I'm using is 2.6.12, is that not recent enough?
2021-01-02T04:08:53Z sauvin: If this stupid thing vexes me much longer, I'm gonna say "screw you" and start using sbcl.
2021-01-02T04:09:01Z aeth: Why GCL?
2021-01-02T04:09:16Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T04:09:23Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-02T04:09:24Z vhost- joined #lisp
2021-01-02T04:09:34Z sauvin: I _usually_ like gnu stuff and don't know enough about lisp - ANY recent implimentation - to make anything like an informed choice.
2021-01-02T04:09:46Z aeth: I'm under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that GCL was never completed. Even CLISP is a more mature GNU CL, but CLISP hasn't had a release in 10 years.
2021-01-02T04:10:14Z aeth: But generally people use SBCL, CCL, or ECL, I think. A bit of ABCL (on the JVM) in here.
2021-01-02T04:10:38Z sauvin: Hrm, yea, it's been about six years for gcl.
2021-01-02T04:10:49Z contrapunctus: sauvin: this guided me in my choices as a newcomer to the CL world, hope it helps you too - https://github.com/emacs-tw/awesome-emacs
2021-01-02T04:10:58Z aeth: ECL's LGPL, CCL's Apache, SBCL's mostly public domain. They're all GPL-compatible.
2021-01-02T04:11:00Z contrapunctus: Whoops
2021-01-02T04:11:14Z sauvin: contrapunctus, thanks, but I'm not smart enough for emacs. I'm a geany person.
2021-01-02T04:11:17Z contrapunctus: sauvin: this https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl
2021-01-02T04:12:10Z benjamindc: does anyone know why the asdf package-inferred-system class doesn't work with pathname?
2021-01-02T04:12:23Z aeth: GNU has two CLs (CLISP and GCL) and maybe 3-4 Schemes (Guile, Kawa, MIT/GNU, and I'm sure they have another one or two hiding because Schemes are common)...
2021-01-02T04:13:00Z sauvin: aeth, for example gauche, I think it is? :D
2021-01-02T04:13:04Z aeth: but unfortunately, neither of the CLs are that active. CLISP's last release was 10 years ago. GCL's was 6. Meanwhile, SBCL's on a monthly release cycle.
2021-01-02T04:13:21Z benjamindc: Why not use SBCL?
2021-01-02T04:13:34Z sauvin: Again, rank newbie: its REPL has no readline.
2021-01-02T04:13:42Z aeth: rlwrap
2021-01-02T04:14:05Z benjamindc: or sly/slime
2021-01-02T04:14:09Z sauvin: Everything you're telling me, though, suggests I oughta spend a few minutes rethinking my cathexis to gcl.
2021-01-02T04:14:20Z sauvin: slime is also eamcs, no?
2021-01-02T04:14:33Z beach: sauvin: You really should learn Emacs and SLIME.
2021-01-02T04:14:43Z no-defun-allowed: How fast can you say "Eh, maybe not then?" You need about that long to make a decision.
2021-01-02T04:14:51Z beach: sauvin: Programming in Common Lisp without those will make you hate the experience.
2021-01-02T04:15:08Z sauvin: I'm a perl guy. :D
2021-01-02T04:15:14Z no-defun-allowed: There's also...SLIMV for Vim, SLIMA for Atom, and Alive for VS Code.
2021-01-02T04:15:29Z sauvin: Also, I'm a geany guy.
2021-01-02T04:15:33Z benjamindc: sauvin: you know vim keybindings?
2021-01-02T04:15:43Z sauvin: Nope. I've never learned any of the TUI editors.
2021-01-02T04:16:25Z no-defun-allowed: Well, none of the three mentioned other than Vim are really TUI editors.
2021-01-02T04:16:27Z beach: sauvin: I don't know what it means to be a "Perl guy" or any "<tool> guy".  You should learn the tools that will make you the most productive.  It is not personal.
2021-01-02T04:16:55Z benjamindc: Really, Emacs is the best tool for the job for CL programming.
2021-01-02T04:17:01Z oni-on-ion: back in the day all we had was a repl, no fancy editor shenanigans
2021-01-02T04:17:12Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T04:17:16Z sauvin: I didn't take it as a personal affront, but one also uses what one knows, especially since this is strictly armchair stuff. My day job is "forklift driver".
2021-01-02T04:17:26Z GuerrillaMonkey quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-02T04:17:30Z beach: oni-on-ion: That was a long time ago.
2021-01-02T04:17:35Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-02T04:17:54Z beach: oni-on-ion: I used Multics Emacs (written in MacLisp) in 1985 or so.
2021-01-02T04:18:00Z aeth: sauvin: https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2056133
2021-01-02T04:18:14Z aeth: sauvin: I don't remember where I saw the original, but I made a few modifications iirc...
2021-01-02T04:18:34Z beach: sauvin: That is the wrong attitude.  If one always uses what one knows, then one will never learn anything new.
2021-01-02T04:18:36Z oni-on-ion: beach, nice =) 10 years later i was just starting emacs
2021-01-02T04:18:44Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T04:18:53Z aeth: sauvin: But I just use the rlwrapped SBCL as a fallback. It's no replacement for SLIME.
2021-01-02T04:19:25Z sauvin: Probably not, but I  think I'll learn a few things about the language itself before simultaneously wrestling with an unfamiliar editor.
2021-01-02T04:19:26Z beach: oni-on-ion: Oh, did I say 1985?  More like 1981.
2021-01-02T04:20:13Z aeth: sauvin: but if you absolutely need built-in readline, then CLISP will probably be a bit less painful than GCL, although it's increasingly common not to support it with libraries
2021-01-02T04:20:15Z sauvin: On the subject of which, is there a way to use emacs lisp without also having to use emacs itself? O:)
2021-01-02T04:20:21Z aeth: (e.g. package local nicknames aren't on CLISP)
2021-01-02T04:20:49Z sauvin: OK, well, small loss. I'll use sbcl.
2021-01-02T04:21:04Z aeth: sauvin: Common Lisp is close enough to Emacs Lisp that there's not much of a need to use it outside of Emacs, although there is an implementation of it in CL iirc.
2021-01-02T04:21:26Z sauvin: I wonder why gcl is lagging so much, though.
2021-01-02T04:21:30Z beach: sauvin: Stepping out of one's comfort zone is part of the learning experience.  The more uncomfortable one feels, the faster the learning.
2021-01-02T04:21:56Z beach: sauvin: GCL is lagging because nobody is working on it.  Nobody is paid to do this stuff.
2021-01-02T04:22:02Z sauvin: Oh, I know this, but I'm an older fella; sometimes, learning too fast isn't very wise.
2021-01-02T04:22:28Z sauvin: beach, that's the FOSS reality. Who's backing sbcl?
2021-01-02T04:23:06Z beach: sauvin: Volunteers.  Convinced by the argument of what's-his-name-again who forked it off of CMUCL.
2021-01-02T04:23:21Z aeth: At least 24 financial contributors, too. https://fundrazr.com/61kPgb?ref=ab_44p9NqQUZKv44p9NqQUZKv
2021-01-02T04:24:06Z benjamindc: sauvin check out portacle https://portacle.github.io
2021-01-02T04:24:09Z beach: sauvin: CMUCL used to be the fastest free Common Lisp implementation, but it was a mess to build.  So this guy forked the code and turned it into SBCL.  And some smart and knowledgeable people were convinced.
2021-01-02T04:24:53Z sauvin: Then maybe the stuff I'd been reading is dated. I didn't pay attention. A couple of online books roasted sbcl as being sub-par and strongly preferred gcl. Didn't understand all the arguments and don't remember most of them.
2021-01-02T04:25:09Z aeth: probably 20 years dated, then?
2021-01-02T04:25:20Z sauvin: Very damn well could be.
2021-01-02T04:25:44Z aeth: circa 2008-2010, a lot of people preferred CLISP to SBCL, but then... CLISP didn't get a release in 10 years and started bitrotting. It's also a slow interpreter rather than a fast compiler.
2021-01-02T04:25:47Z oni-on-ion: beach, yep. i started coding early 90s so most revolutions were before my timev
2021-01-02T04:26:01Z aeth: the good thing about CL is that if you write portable-enough code, it's not too hard to move to whatever's trendy
2021-01-02T04:26:21Z sauvin: That's one of the virtues of an older language.
2021-01-02T04:26:23Z beach: sauvin: The name of the guy who started SBCL is William Newman.
2021-01-02T04:27:24Z sauvin: The actor?
2021-01-02T04:27:48Z beach: I doubt it.
2021-01-02T04:29:27Z sauvin: Jeebus crap, SBCL is is 21 years old and has a stable release just three days ago!?
2021-01-02T04:29:27Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T04:29:50Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-02T04:29:58Z beach: Monthly releases, yes.
2021-01-02T04:30:26Z aeth: heh, I was thinking "oh, no, it's not that old, it's from the late 90s"
2021-01-02T04:30:54Z sauvin: Right there with ya, pal. I'm a boomer who can't get used to the idea of not being 17 anymore.
2021-01-02T04:31:05Z oni-on-ion: also, SBCL is 2.1 , now its 2021 =)
2021-01-02T04:31:18Z sauvin: dpkg says I have 2.2.mumble.
2021-01-02T04:31:37Z oni-on-ion: that is strange
2021-01-02T04:32:03Z aeth: CCL started in 1984. https://ccl.clozure.com/history.html
2021-01-02T04:32:06Z sauvin: Oh, wait, I might be misreading. The version field from the dpkg listing is 2:2.0.1-3
2021-01-02T04:32:18Z aeth: CMUCL, which SBCL forked from, started in "the early 1980s". https://www.cons.org/cmucl/credits.html
2021-01-02T04:32:36Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised if there's a 1970s (or older?) CL if it started as some other Lisp first.
2021-01-02T04:32:41Z oni-on-ion: mocl is a nice idea
2021-01-02T04:32:42Z sauvin: OK, well, like I said, small loss. As far as lisp is concerned, I'm now an sbcl guy.
2021-01-02T04:33:03Z aeth: The first copyright in ECL is 1984... https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/-/blob/develop/LICENSE
2021-01-02T04:33:14Z sauvin: I can't remember, seems like there was a Kyoto Lisp when I was still swearing at a 286.
2021-01-02T04:33:51Z aeth: Looks like GCL, ECL, and MKCL are all descended from it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Common_Lisp
2021-01-02T04:34:56Z beach: aeth: CMUCL started as Spice Lisp.
2021-01-02T04:35:41Z beach: sauvin: KCL turned into AKCL (Austin-) which turned into GCL.
2021-01-02T04:36:41Z beach: Someone has a diagram of all the Common Lisp history.  Maybe jackdaniel?
2021-01-02T04:37:06Z benjamindc: Does anyone have experience with ASDF package-inferred-system and the :pathname option for defsystem? I'm having an issue where my test system isn't finding packages defined in "test/" even though I've got pathname set.
2021-01-02T04:38:16Z beach: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/History.html
2021-01-02T04:38:24Z oni-on-ion: not sure why this is redacted: https://www.infoq.com/news/2009/04/Lisp-Guy-Steele-Richard-Gabriel/
2021-01-02T04:39:01Z sauvin: beach, that link is a 404 on my end.
2021-01-02T04:39:14Z aeth: benjamindc: if you have a foo/test, then make a test.lisp at the top level that contains a package
2021-01-02T04:39:15Z beach: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/History.html
2021-01-02T04:39:21Z aeth: benjamindc: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/-/blob/2316d43b3a9f9a98325e45fa891b1845e055a5da/tests.lisp
2021-01-02T04:39:31Z sauvin: Ah! Thanks!
2021-01-02T04:39:39Z aeth: benjamindc: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/-/blob/2316d43b3a9f9a98325e45fa891b1845e055a5da/zombie-raptor.asd#L31
2021-01-02T04:40:16Z benjamindc: Thanks aeth!
2021-01-02T04:40:53Z beach: I still don't know what problem package-inferred systems are supposed to solve.  They seem to make everything harder.
2021-01-02T04:41:27Z aeth: jackdaniel: hmm, that history diagram in beach's link doesn't look that good to me... I think it might just be me. I have a dark UI, so it's probably automatically putting it in dark mode in Firefox.
2021-01-02T04:41:54Z aeth: I switched browsers to Chromium (which doesn't use the host's UI, and so uses a light UI, and so doesn't request dark mode CSS) and it's a white background and looks fine
2021-01-02T04:42:19Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-02T04:42:36Z beach: aeth: I think it is just you.  It looks fine in Firefox to me.
2021-01-02T04:42:54Z bilegeek_ is now known as bilegeek
2021-01-02T04:43:00Z aeth: yeah, it's because the image has a transparent background which doesn't go with dark mode, which is automatically selected
2021-01-02T04:43:13Z aeth: since the lines are very close to the dark mode background color
2021-01-02T04:43:22Z beach: Oh, I see.
2021-01-02T04:43:24Z easye joined #lisp
2021-01-02T04:43:40Z sauvin: OK, well, dudes, thank you very much for your time. We'll find out if sbcl gives me any less grief than gcl does.
2021-01-02T04:44:12Z beach doesn't think of himself as a "dude". 
2021-01-02T04:44:20Z aeth: sauvin: you're welcome
2021-01-02T04:44:36Z aeth: beach: Whether or not package inferred systems are useful really depends on the problem. I definitely wouldn't use it for every repository, but it seems more useful than not in my game engine.
2021-01-02T04:45:01Z oni-on-ion: with FIrefox i've got to often switch on/off dark mode for sites that break with it on
2021-01-02T04:45:28Z oni-on-ion: (usually background images that somehow become foreground, covering everything0
2021-01-02T04:45:30Z oni-on-ion: )
2021-01-02T04:45:39Z beach: I still don't know what problem they are supposed to solve.  But we have been through this before, and all you could come up with to solve the problems they introduce were more unnecessary complications.
2021-01-02T04:45:52Z beach: aeth: ^
2021-01-02T04:46:04Z benjamindc: beach what do you suggest instead?
2021-01-02T04:46:16Z beach: benjamindc: Not using them?
2021-01-02T04:46:30Z beach: benjamindc: I organize my code into "modules"....
2021-01-02T04:47:11Z beach: benjamindc: Each "module" is in one directory, has one (or two) .asdf file(s), and one (or two) packages.lisp file(s).
2021-01-02T04:47:18Z Nilby: beach: But would you say that automatic dependencies that worked well, would not be desirable?
2021-01-02T04:47:23Z aeth: beach: It makes every file into a system, which means that any file with the same name of a directory also becomes a system, so as a whole it does reduce boilerplate for certain kinds of projects, but it only really works with some of them, not all of them.
2021-01-02T04:47:46Z aeth: Something similar, but with directories instead of files (and the more idiomatic package.lisp in each directory) would probably work more generally.
2021-01-02T04:48:01Z oni-on-ion: oh that sounds useful
2021-01-02T04:48:05Z beach: Nilby: How would one module infer automatically what other modules it depends on?
2021-01-02T04:48:53Z aeth: beach: it parses the defpackage. If you use prefixes, you have it in an IMPORT-FROM with nothing other than the package name iirc. Otherwise, USE (not recommended in most cases) or manually IMPORT-FROM various symbols.
2021-01-02T04:48:56Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-02T04:48:57Z aeth: iirc
2021-01-02T04:48:58Z beach: aeth: Yes, as I said, we have been through this before, and all it would do for me would be to have each file be huge.  And you came up with various fixes for that problem that made everything even more complicated.
2021-01-02T04:49:01Z Nilby: beach: By what symbols it uses, and some heuristics.
2021-01-02T04:49:24Z aeth: Nilby: No, I think it's literally just (:import-from #:alexandria) and now it knows you're using (alexandria:foo)
2021-01-02T04:50:08Z aeth: beach: it's definitely not for every project, I don't use it in my Scheme-in-CL project
2021-01-02T04:50:23Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T04:50:25Z aeth: but my game engine's bordering on a "monorepo" so it's very useful there.
2021-01-02T04:50:34Z Nilby: aeth: Yes, but I'm dreaming of something more fully automatic.
2021-01-02T04:50:51Z benjamindc: beach, do you have an example of what you mean that I can check out on gitlab or github?
2021-01-02T04:50:52Z aeth: Nilby: impossible in the general case because of features like EVAL
2021-01-02T04:51:16Z beach: benjamindc: Sure, hold on...
2021-01-02T04:51:29Z beach: benjamindc: Maybe Cluffer.
2021-01-02T04:51:34Z benjamindc: thanks, beach
2021-01-02T04:51:37Z aeth: benjamindc: Idiomatic CL is structured so that there's either a top level package.lisp or a bunch of subdirectories, each with one package.lisp
2021-01-02T04:52:15Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer
2021-01-02T04:53:04Z benjamindc: I'm coming to CL from Clojure and I like the one package per file style as it somewhat maps to clojure's namespaces. But if that's not idiomatic, when I should reasses.
2021-01-02T04:53:19Z beach: I think it's a silly idea.  I mean, setting up a "module" is (or should be) a tiny fraction of the total amount of work on the real code of the module.  And if instead package-inferred systems make the code for the module huge and unmanageable, then what's the point?
2021-01-02T04:54:17Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-02T04:56:28Z no-defun-allowed: I have files that average 40LOC or so; should I make a package for each of them?
2021-01-02T04:56:44Z beach: Exactly!
2021-01-02T04:56:58Z aeth: it really depends on what you're trying to do
2021-01-02T04:56:59Z Nilby: aeth: Some very useful things are impossible in the general case. I don't see it as a problem.
2021-01-02T04:57:01Z no-defun-allowed: And how do I export symbols from each file, in a way that lets me use symbols inside my "modules", but without the user being able to use them?
2021-01-02T04:57:37Z no-defun-allowed: There are a fair few things that I need to use between files, which a user could easily use to break the state of the system.
2021-01-02T04:57:56Z beach: Well put.
2021-01-02T04:58:31Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: Well, I mean, for one, I have a file with 5 lines of code, 4 being the defpackage, in one of my projects that doesn't use package-inferred-system. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/master/scheme-boolean.lisp
2021-01-02T04:58:33Z beach: no-defun-allowed: And I think the answer is that one has to put all the code of the module in one huge file.
2021-01-02T04:58:35Z aeth: So it really depends on the problem...
2021-01-02T04:58:57Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-02T04:59:25Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: Another thing is, you have no real privacy that's not privacy-by-convention in Common Lisp outside of lexical closures. So you change the expectations of certain packages. That is, you have to have "internal" packages that if the user uses directly, you don't guarantee a stable interface.
2021-01-02T04:59:36Z aeth: So you just introduce another convention...
2021-01-02T04:59:42Z no-defun-allowed: beach: It reminds me of when the Java teacher at university told us how having a class Class being in a file Class.java was a good idea. Sure, I know that the definition of stuff in that Class is in that file, but now I just have to find the method I want in a 3kLOC file.
2021-01-02T05:00:19Z aeth: File organization is... very subjective. In the end, you get there by M-.
2021-01-02T05:00:41Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Wow.
2021-01-02T05:00:46Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: If you use internal symbols, you're on your own. There are only a few ways you can break my system from exported symbols, which are mutating sequences I can only tell you that you shouldn't mutate.
2021-01-02T05:01:11Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: And if you use a package in package-inferred-system that's clearly for use by other packages rather than the user, then you're also on your own.
2021-01-02T05:01:29Z no-defun-allowed: At one point, I wished you could pass out immutable "mirrors" of objects somehow, but it would have to be transitive, and it got too messy in my head.
2021-01-02T05:01:40Z aeth: Package-inferred-system encourages "internal" packages more than other styles, but that's an issue that can come up in other places.
2021-01-02T05:02:41Z no-defun-allowed: On the other hand, I have one package with like 100 symbols, and that feels a bit big (here we go again with the disbelief that I wrote 10,000 lines of code and all). But then I remember CLIM defines about a magnitude more symbols, and I don't feel so bad.
2021-01-02T05:03:59Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: It really depends on the domain you're doing. Java treats everything like it's a big, important project that's full of complexity and importance. Most projects aren't like that. trivial-left-pad doesn't need package-inferred-system.
2021-01-02T05:04:32Z aeth: But sometimes, you do a project where that sort of organization makes sense. Where there are a *ton* of files, and they all really need their own package because they do their own thing. E.g. I have a file that deals with SDL2. A file. Nothing else needs to know that SDL2 even exists.
2021-01-02T05:05:09Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T05:05:26Z no-defun-allowed: I try to do "one file per concept", which leads to a somewhat pleasing LOC distribution.
2021-01-02T05:05:40Z Nilby is so tired of the old cliché of files and filesystems.
2021-01-02T05:06:12Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, the damned filesystem makes organising code a fair bit harder than it should be.
2021-01-02T05:06:56Z aeth: Well, files are somewhat useful. If you write a bunch of macros with their own functions, and those functions are elaborate, then you probably want those functions to be in another file so you don't have to wrap them in a gigantic, hundreds-of-lines-long EVAL-WHEN.
2021-01-02T05:07:02Z aeth: And... that's it.
2021-01-02T05:07:10Z aeth: Beyond that, it's aesthetics.
2021-01-02T05:07:41Z jeosol:  aeth: I had a conversion with Fare when I was trying to understand the use of :package-inferred-system for a code base. His article seems to suggested it helps compilation for large code bases but I never did a test to verify
2021-01-02T05:07:43Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T05:08:12Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-02T05:08:17Z aeth: jeosol: It definitely helps CI for very large systems because not everything needs to be tested in the CI. e.g. all of the FFI stuff, if cleanly separated, doesn't need to be loaded.
2021-01-02T05:08:18Z no-defun-allowed uploaded an image: loc-distribution-function.png (41KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/LxrkPifVjClIzILMEKUPbWgl/loc-distribution-function.png >
2021-01-02T05:08:23Z jeosol: I remember I used it in my code base, but like beach said, it can be difficult to work with sometimes, as in some cases, you'd then define another package.lisp file to aggregate everything later on
2021-01-02T05:08:31Z no-defun-allowed: For reference, I graphed the cumulative distribution functions of my largest two codebases.
2021-01-02T05:10:34Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: I tend to prefer 300-1000 lines, but I also have a lot of extremely tiny files, too. Lots of special cases exist as real outliers, too, e.g. tests, which can be 7 lines or infinite.
2021-01-02T05:11:16Z pyc: Follow up question on our discussion on the importance of backward compatibility in the CL community. How did this breakage happen? "Doesn't work with the current version of Hunchentoot anymore!"
2021-01-02T05:11:24Z pyc: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-wiki/
2021-01-02T05:12:19Z no-defun-allowed: It would be nice if they said why.
2021-01-02T05:12:29Z jeosol: aeth: I do have some 1000 loc files. Sometimes I want to break them but it will be more of a hassle as related functions are not together then.
2021-01-02T05:12:54Z benjamindc: jeosol, do you have a link to his article?
2021-01-02T05:13:12Z jeosol: what article?
2021-01-02T05:13:20Z jeosol: you mean Fare's?
2021-01-02T05:13:23Z benjamindc: yeah
2021-01-02T05:14:19Z oni-on-ion: scratch.lisp
2021-01-02T05:14:20Z jeosol: ok, let me see if I can pull it up. For context, I had a large system and I was running into issues where I wanted things to load faster and Fare suggested to look into that, and also some and to look at the dependency graph
2021-01-02T05:16:02Z jeosol: benjamindc: http://fare.tunes.org/files/asdf3/asdf3-2014.html#%28part._asdf-package-system%29
2021-01-02T05:16:11Z jeosol: See section 2.10 for package-inferred-system
2021-01-02T05:16:55Z jeosol: The second to last paragraph is the statement about "scaling" but I never verified this
2021-01-02T05:16:59Z benjamindc: thank you
2021-01-02T05:19:27Z aeth: jeosol: Oh, it probably *reloads* faster
2021-01-02T05:19:40Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-02T05:19:43Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T05:19:48Z aeth: Since it'll only reload the file you modified and the files that depend on it.
2021-01-02T05:19:52Z jeosol: aeth: may be that's what it is.
2021-01-02T05:20:14Z jeosol: I did notice that, when I changed a few, only the file that's change is reload
2021-01-02T05:20:18Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-02T05:20:24Z aeth: I do notice that zombie-raptor loads faster than airship-scheme when it's not a from scratch load (so not e.g. a new version of SBCL)
2021-01-02T05:20:31Z aeth: Even though zombie-raptor is larger.
2021-01-02T05:21:49Z jeosol: aeth: I would think that's one of the benefit - at least what I observed
2021-01-02T05:24:19Z jeosol: I looked at your zombie-raptor link I realized I did something similar, have the separate files, then aggregate with a common package and use-reexport later.
2021-01-02T05:24:45Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T05:24:48Z aeth: yeah, that's because having directory-level modularity makes a lot of sense
2021-01-02T05:25:00Z aeth: It's very monorepo
2021-01-02T05:25:05Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-02T05:25:26Z aeth: The only reason I spun off zr-utils is because it would be strange for airship-scheme to either (1) depend on a game engine or (2) actually be hosted in a game engine monorepo
2021-01-02T05:25:43Z jeosol: aeth: makes sense
2021-01-02T05:26:07Z jeosol: I remember the airship-scheme project you mentioned before, how is that coming along
2021-01-02T05:26:17Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-02T05:26:26Z aeth: I'm taking a bit of a break from it now that the reader, which took longer than I had expected, is done
2021-01-02T05:26:42Z aeth: it wound up being 1024 lines :-/
2021-01-02T05:26:43Z benjamindc: I just keep getting this error when trying to run (asdf:test-system "ramsay") even though the file lexer.lisp is in the test dir. Component "ramsay/test/lexer" not found, required by #<PACKAGE-INFERRED-SYSTEM "ramsay/test">
2021-01-02T05:26:43Z jeosol: that's good. Allow the brain cells to heal ...
2021-01-02T05:27:04Z aeth: I do multiple projects so I can cycle between them when there's a good breaking point so I don't burn out of them
2021-01-02T05:27:14Z jeosol: benjamindc: can you paste the *.asd file
2021-01-02T05:27:23Z no-defun-allowed: Most of the time, I reload with C-c C-c; only reloading when I replace a macro or something more invasive.
2021-01-02T05:27:25Z benjamindc: ;;;; ramsay.asd
2021-01-02T05:27:25Z benjamindc: (defsystem #:ramsay
2021-01-02T05:27:25Z benjamindc:   :description "Lisp like language for the EVM"
2021-01-02T05:27:25Z benjamindc:   :author "benjamin cassidy <benjamin@cassidy.io>"
2021-01-02T05:27:28Z benjamindc:   :license  "GPL-3.0"
2021-01-02T05:27:31Z vhost- joined #lisp
2021-01-02T05:27:32Z benjamindc:   :version "0.0.1"
2021-01-02T05:27:36Z benjamindc:   :class :package-inferred-system
2021-01-02T05:27:40Z benjamindc:   :pathname "src/"
2021-01-02T05:27:40Z benjamindc:   :depends-on ("alexandria"
2021-01-02T05:27:43Z benjamindc:                "ramsay/lexer")
2021-01-02T05:27:44Z jeosol: aeth: I think that's a good strategy, I working on multiple projects too,
2021-01-02T05:27:46Z benjamindc:   :in-order-to ((test-op (test-op "ramsay/test"))))
2021-01-02T05:27:49Z benjamindc:  
2021-01-02T05:27:52Z benjamindc: (defsystem #:ramsay/test
2021-01-02T05:27:56Z benjamindc:   :class :package-inferred-system
2021-01-02T05:27:56Z no-defun-allowed: Hey, use a paste or copy the link please.
2021-01-02T05:27:59Z benjamindc:   :depends-on ("rove" "ramsay" "ramsay/test/lexer")
2021-01-02T05:28:00Z jeosol: benjamindc: use pastebin, its better
2021-01-02T05:28:02Z benjamindc:   :perform (test-op (o c) (symbol-call :rove :run c)))
2021-01-02T05:28:02Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T05:28:06Z benjamindc:  
2021-01-02T05:28:13Z benjamindc: sorry :(
2021-01-02T05:28:20Z benjamindc: will use pastebin in the future
2021-01-02T05:28:21Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: I'm talking about QL:QUICKLOAD, though. When you have a large project, you could go months without touching 80% of it, and unless you touched the core stuff that everything else depends on, that means you can go months without compiling almost 80% of it... unless you update SBCL monthly.
2021-01-02T05:28:50Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-02T05:28:52Z no-defun-allowed: So, is every file a component in ASDF?
2021-01-02T05:29:18Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, that's generally true, not just for package-inferred-system.
2021-01-02T05:29:45Z no-defun-allowed: If I had said "system" or "module" or something, and it was true, then I'd wonder how long (ql:register-local-projects) would take, when scanning SICL takes a good 20 seconds.
2021-01-02T05:30:43Z jeosol: aeth: 1024 lines is not bad. I once had a component, 3d graphical ray tracing, took me a month to complete for a challenge (circa 2017) - early days. The guys over at comp.lang.lisp helped a lot
2021-01-02T05:32:05Z jeosol: aeth: I have to work on something with python pandas last few days, dealing with python version hell drove me mad. I wished I could have used some CL library for the data manipulation piece
2021-01-02T05:32:49Z jeosol: I think the vellum library is a step in that direction, and clml
2021-01-02T05:33:34Z no-defun-allowed: I get uncomfortable around 200 to 250 lines.
2021-01-02T05:34:10Z jeosol: if not for M-. , it will definitely be hard to work with large files
2021-01-02T05:35:15Z skapate joined #lisp
2021-01-02T05:37:23Z aeth: jeosol: for me what bothers me with that sort of thing is Jupyter... Everything will be fine until I need to run it again because of the implicit state in the out-of-order evaluation of the cells that I did while programming it.
2021-01-02T05:37:35Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-02T05:37:38Z aeth: That and it's frustratingly missing certain features like a spellchecker or an integrated linter (and you need a linter when you run Python)
2021-01-02T05:38:00Z aeth: (Plus, I like Emacs keys)
2021-01-02T05:38:22Z no-defun-allowed: Hypothetically, you could use the reads and writes each cell makes to topologically sort them, but that requires hooks in places no real Common Lisp implementation gives you.
2021-01-02T05:38:23Z jeosol: out-of-order is a pain in jupyter notebooks for sure.
2021-01-02T05:38:34Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-02T05:39:00Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-02T05:39:29Z aeth: Something based in CL probably could implement a similar literate-programming thing in a smarter way than Jupyter (since CL already expects things to be redefined constantly), where it would make sure that running it from start-to-finish still produces the current results or something.
2021-01-02T05:40:33Z jeosol: i guess the cl-jupyter is the same issue right? I followed a clml tutorial. It's probably just to show things I suppose, I also tried to use VS code for it. The workflow is certainly not easy
2021-01-02T05:40:57Z jeosol: The problem with the project if implemented in CL, is that client may complain that they don't understand it if they need to take it over
2021-01-02T05:43:07Z oni-on-ion: aeth, CL-listener ?
2021-01-02T05:44:05Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-02T05:46:22Z thmprover quit (Quit: Happy new year!)
2021-01-02T05:53:43Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T05:58:14Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T05:59:41Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-02T06:04:03Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T06:07:09Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-02T06:25:16Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T06:26:01Z abhixec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T06:26:06Z mrno1 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T06:31:42Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T06:42:22Z mrno1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T06:45:41Z imode quit (Quit: System (literal) crash, need to recover, brb.)
2021-01-02T06:46:10Z gioyik_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T06:48:37Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T06:50:07Z solideogloria[m]: Why does `cl-json` parse the string "!BFYazLCNOAsYDPxIDn:matrix.org" as the symbol !+BF+-YAZ-+LCNO+-AS-+YD+-PX-I-DN:MATRIX.ORG
2021-01-02T06:51:50Z no-defun-allowed: cl-json only interns keys, from memory. But if you're using it to parse Matrix events, then the number of keys isn't finite, so you probably want to use another library, like jsown.
2021-01-02T06:52:13Z no-defun-allowed: But some parsers treat a key a:b as the symbol printed as a:b; I think there was also another XML parser that did that.
2021-01-02T06:55:18Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-02T06:55:43Z saturn2: you can override that by binding json:*json-identifier-name-to-lisp* and json:*identifier-name-to-key* to #'identity
2021-01-02T06:57:54Z aeth: solideogloria[m]: that's a camelCase to hyphen translation.
2021-01-02T06:58:28Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-02T06:59:48Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-02T07:00:29Z solideogloria[m]: got it saturn2
2021-01-02T07:00:50Z loke[m]: I tend to use st-json
2021-01-02T07:01:13Z loke[m]: It uses strings as keys, which is better (no risk of intern attacks with untrusted data).
2021-01-02T07:01:27Z loke[m]: Also, it allows you to define custom datatype converters.
2021-01-02T07:06:16Z lottaquestions quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T07:06:41Z lottaquestions joined #lisp
2021-01-02T07:07:45Z jackdaniel: beach: this image is more complete https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/quarterly/img/vol4/all-hierarchy.png
2021-01-02T07:07:55Z jackdaniel: the one you have linked illustrates only ecl family and influences
2021-01-02T07:10:48Z beach: Ah, OK, thanks!
2021-01-02T07:15:22Z imode quit (Quit: Rebooting, updates.)
2021-01-02T07:15:52Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T07:17:43Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-02T07:18:03Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-01-02T07:34:09Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-02T07:41:36Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-02T07:47:06Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-02T07:47:31Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-02T07:50:52Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T07:51:25Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-02T08:03:48Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-02T08:04:56Z solideogloria[m]: loke: st-json looks like a better choice
2021-01-02T08:04:57Z solideogloria[m]: thanks
2021-01-02T08:15:28Z jrm quit (Quit: ciao)
2021-01-02T08:15:54Z jrm joined #lisp
2021-01-02T08:25:16Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-02T08:27:33Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-02T08:35:22Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T08:45:54Z skapate quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T08:45:59Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-02T08:50:41Z oni-on-ion: what is stored in the [sbcl] lisp image? just compiled code?
2021-01-02T08:51:40Z beach: Documentation strings.
2021-01-02T08:51:48Z beach: Lambda lists.
2021-01-02T08:52:02Z beach: Maybe some FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSIONs
2021-01-02T08:52:03Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T08:53:53Z beach: Various objects, like classes, generic functions, symbols, packages.
2021-01-02T08:55:14Z oni-on-ion: ahh right. hmm
2021-01-02T08:55:14Z beach: And if you are not restricted to SBCL, in SICL, I store the entire source text of all the code that has been loaded into the image.
2021-01-02T08:55:25Z oni-on-ion: oh nice ! great!
2021-01-02T08:55:31Z no-defun-allowed: I think everything in memory (after a full GC).
2021-01-02T08:55:32Z oni-on-ion: oh oh: "Cannot save core with multiple threads running."
2021-01-02T08:56:05Z saturn2: you can see what's in your lisp image with (room t)
2021-01-02T08:56:07Z oni-on-ion: no-defun-allowed, i wonder what an 'empty' session would have as live objects? aside from classes, packages, symbols etc.
2021-01-02T08:56:07Z beach: oni-on-ion: I use the source text for reporting errors and warnings, and for backtraces.
2021-01-02T08:56:22Z oni-on-ion: saturn2, oh cool
2021-01-02T08:57:20Z beach: oni-on-ion: Methods and generic functions are objects, and there may be data structures involved for organizing those.  Most certainly, you have hash tables in your package objects and such.
2021-01-02T08:57:30Z oni-on-ion: ROOM is awesome. so on a plain start, it takes about 100Mb ram? (Summary Total)
2021-01-02T08:58:05Z beach: oni-on-ion: Method combinations involve data structures as well.
2021-01-02T08:58:13Z oni-on-ion: beach, hmm yes i see. have you played around with Squeak at all? having the source in the image allows for some very useful things. like ChangeSet
2021-01-02T08:59:12Z beach: I have not used Squeak, but my experience from staring at compiler output from SBCL and trying to match it to source code made me think about other ways of doing it.
2021-01-02T08:59:41Z oni-on-ion: beach, ahh, never had thought of CLOS. i mistakenly think it is bare knuckles, i had been accustomed to the seperation of FoundationKit and AppKit from other lands
2021-01-02T08:59:53Z oni-on-ion: beach, nice. good =)
2021-01-02T09:00:01Z beach: Thanks.
2021-01-02T09:00:37Z beach: Common Lisp being a dynamic language, lots of stuff must be kept track of to allow for incremental updates to the image.
2021-01-02T09:00:44Z oni-on-ion: can't save image with threads, i dont know
2021-01-02T09:00:58Z oni-on-ion: yep - Squeak/Smalltalk is similar in that regard
2021-01-02T09:01:29Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-02T09:02:22Z no-defun-allowed: 100 megabits? After compression, a SBCL image is about 100 megabits on disk.
2021-01-02T09:03:02Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-02T09:03:06Z beach: Tiny.
2021-01-02T09:03:12Z no-defun-allowed: (save-lisp-and-die "foo" :executable t :compression 9) gives me a 96 megabit image.
2021-01-02T09:03:55Z shka_: who measures disk space in bits?
2021-01-02T09:04:19Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: After making sure not to load Quicklisp, (room) tells me I'm using about 25MB of dynamic space, and 12.8MB of immobile space. The rest is negligible.
2021-01-02T09:04:32Z no-defun-allowed: shka_: Well, oni-on-ion measured 100 megabits of RAM.
2021-01-02T09:06:17Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T09:06:54Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T09:09:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T09:09:39Z Nilby: When you compare the size of a CL image to most other program binaries, make sure to add the size of most shared libraries, the compiler tool chain, and the debugger.
2021-01-02T09:10:38Z no-defun-allowed: No need - appimages and Electron programs blow most CL images out of the water in terms of size.
2021-01-02T09:12:47Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-02T09:15:44Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-02T09:18:06Z rjcks joined #lisp
2021-01-02T09:18:49Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-02T09:24:27Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-02T09:33:42Z sauvin: beach, everybody, you were right: sbcl is a better choice.
2021-01-02T09:34:29Z beach: Great!
2021-01-02T09:35:28Z sauvin: I poked around the nets for a while looking at all kinds of different things regarding lisp, then remembered I wanted quicklisp, so, I fired up sbcl, loaded the quicklisp.lisp file and it just took right off. Slicker than CPAN.
2021-01-02T09:36:01Z beach: Sounds like you're in business then.  Good.
2021-01-02T09:37:38Z sauvin: I think so. A beginner doesn't need to have to try to wrestle with the language implimentation while he's still trying to figure out how to say "sub stuff { 3.14159 * 2**$_[0]}" or "sub chunk { [ split ] }"
2021-01-02T09:38:33Z beach: What on earth is that?  Line noise?
2021-01-02T09:39:26Z sauvin: It's perl, you semiliterate LUNK!
2021-01-02T09:40:24Z no-defun-allowed: Whoa, that's rude.
2021-01-02T09:40:25Z sauvin: I've been perling (strictly on an armchair basis, mind) for about twenty years. Lisp gonna be a new way to think.
2021-01-02T09:41:30Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-02T09:41:31Z saturn2: (defun stuff (x) (* 3.14159 (expt 2 x)) the other one doesn't quite have a direct equivalent
2021-01-02T09:41:38Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-02T09:42:04Z no-defun-allowed: "a new way to think" is the wrong way to approach it, in my opinion. Writing in Lisp is frequently "the way I wanted to think about it", except for the times in which it isn't, but those times are much less frequent.
2021-01-02T09:42:04Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-02T09:42:06Z sauvin: Direct, maybe not, but it's what got me wanting libraries to begin with. I didn't want to have to come up with a BASIC-like equivalent.
2021-01-02T09:42:59Z otwieracz left #lisp
2021-01-02T09:43:12Z VincentVega: is there some trick to specify synonyms in &key?
2021-01-02T09:43:32Z no-defun-allowed: What would you consider a synonym?
2021-01-02T09:43:47Z VincentVega: :w and :width for instance
2021-01-02T09:44:03Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T09:44:24Z VincentVega: in initialize-instance for some geometric object
2021-01-02T09:44:53Z VincentVega: so far i just do (... &key (w nil) (width nil)) and check for mutual exclusivity but it's a runtime check
2021-01-02T09:45:16Z VincentVega: and the defaults aren't obvious
2021-01-02T09:45:27Z Nilby: a repl or editor that does :w<tab> -> :width
2021-01-02T09:45:59Z saturn2: i'm not aware of any such trick
2021-01-02T09:46:42Z Nilby: but if you really want to parse synonyms for the keys with &rest yourself, you can
2021-01-02T09:46:57Z Nilby: and even make a macro for it
2021-01-02T09:47:46Z VincentVega: yeah ok
2021-01-02T09:48:08Z saturn2: you could write your own object making function with a compiler macro for the compile time check
2021-01-02T09:48:48Z Alfr_: Nilby, which editor does that? And not also suggesting all keywords starting with w ?
2021-01-02T09:49:16Z VincentVega: a macro like that actually sounds pretty interesting
2021-01-02T09:49:21Z no-defun-allowed: I think sticking to the long names is a good idea, generally.
2021-01-02T09:50:21Z Nilby: Probably emacs w/SLY/SIME, vim w/VLIME or something, vs code with some lisp extension, etc. but I don't know since I use my own thing.
2021-01-02T09:50:35Z no-defun-allowed: For geometric objects, w, h, x and y can be assumed to be width, height, X and Y positions, but it's usually nicer to use full names when someone else is supposed to look at a lambda-list and guess what they can call your functions with.
2021-01-02T09:51:41Z VincentVega: no-defun-allowed: i see your point there (sorry for the pun)
2021-01-02T09:52:00Z no-defun-allowed: That was a recurring theme in a funny Usenet thread I read, in which the verbosity of many Common Lisp libraries is supposed to be a problem (as it apparently is bad for "scripting").
2021-01-02T09:52:31Z Alfr_: Nilby, hm. I must have somehow misconfigured slime.
2021-01-02T09:53:22Z no-defun-allowed: If you write (make-instance 'some-class, then SLIME will pop up with a lambda list like (&key this-initarg that-initarg ...) ;; and because unbalanced parens tick me off )
2021-01-02T09:56:01Z Alfr_: I mean it's doesn't complete :e<TAB> to :element-type for make-array for me.
2021-01-02T09:57:50Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-02T09:58:04Z no-defun-allowed: Here, I have to press C-M-i (or ESC TAB or M-TAB, whatever floats your boat) to complete, unless I'm in the REPL, as TAB indents.
2021-01-02T09:58:49Z Nilby: Alfr_: I just tried it with no configuration on emacs 25.2 and slime 2.26 from melpa. But I'm probably not the person to ask, since I don't use it. SLIME doesn't come close to working on my real configuration.
2021-01-02T09:59:16Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-02T09:59:16Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-02T09:59:16Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-02T09:59:50Z Nilby: oh and most recent sbcl
2021-01-02T10:04:04Z Alfr_: Nilby, after removing slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol from slime-completion-at-point-functions it works here as well. Thank you. :)
2021-01-02T10:04:19Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T10:04:54Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-02T10:04:54Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-02T10:04:54Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-02T10:09:58Z Nilby: Alfr_: Nice! I've saved myself many hours of pointless work by always trying stuff in a clean setup first.
2021-01-02T10:13:14Z Alfr_: For that one has to know how it's supposed to work in the first place and until you mentioned it, I didn't.
2021-01-02T10:15:36Z Nilby: I usually just think what I want it to do, and figure somebody must have already done it.
2021-01-02T10:16:48Z Nilby: and if not someone on #lisp will usually know
2021-01-02T10:19:51Z Nilby: When I used to work on emacs the philosophy was, most of your code that isn't docstring should be written by <tab> completion. Snippets really help with that too.
2021-01-02T10:20:06Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-02T10:21:47Z lotuseater quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-02T10:23:25Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-02T10:24:08Z mirchael joined #lisp
2021-01-02T10:24:50Z mirchael quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-02T10:27:03Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-02T10:28:48Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-02T10:33:16Z murtagh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-02T10:37:46Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T10:41:01Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-02T10:41:27Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-02T10:46:12Z igemnace quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-02T10:54:47Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T11:04:02Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:04:23Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T11:07:42Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-02T11:08:11Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T11:08:26Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-02T11:09:00Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:10:30Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:17:01Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:28:01Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:28:31Z gutter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T11:29:29Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-02T11:30:38Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:30:39Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T11:32:45Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:33:09Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-02T11:35:18Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T11:35:19Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:36:28Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:40:11Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:40:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:43:01Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:43:04Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:44:43Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T11:45:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-02T11:48:13Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T11:50:37Z mbomba joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:52:00Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T11:52:03Z mbomba quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-02T11:54:19Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T11:54:53Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:55:09Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T11:55:36Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-02T11:59:24Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:04:43Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:07:35Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T12:07:53Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:12:38Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T12:15:58Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:17:10Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-02T12:19:43Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:22:43Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:33:22Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:35:58Z joshcom joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:36:47Z fanta1 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:39:48Z charlie770 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:40:05Z frgo quit
2021-01-02T12:41:41Z aorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-02T12:45:27Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-02T12:45:37Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:48:01Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-02T12:50:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-02T12:50:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:56:30Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:57:17Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-02T12:58:07Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T13:01:23Z zulu-inuoe__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T13:02:10Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-02T13:07:54Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-02T13:09:49Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T13:18:57Z VincentVega quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T13:29:05Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T13:33:40Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T13:35:08Z joshcom quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T13:41:09Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-02T13:41:28Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-02T13:41:47Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-02T13:46:26Z joshcom joined #lisp
2021-01-02T13:49:09Z andreyor1 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T13:50:01Z aorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T14:04:19Z C-16 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T14:11:05Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-02T14:14:59Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-02T14:19:24Z joshcom quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T14:22:56Z C-16 quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-02T14:25:35Z charlie770 quit (Quit: thatsit)
2021-01-02T14:28:19Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-02T14:35:36Z beach: Xach: Do you still check Quicklisp systems with SICL LOOP?  I am asking because Alexandria contains two illegal LOOP forms.
2021-01-02T14:36:18Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T14:36:58Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-02T14:37:13Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T14:37:25Z ebrasca: beach: what do you mean with "illegal LOOP forms"?
2021-01-02T14:37:54Z beach: It violates the clause order defined by the standard.
2021-01-02T14:38:28Z beach: Oh, wait, it has been fixed.  I just need to update my Alexandria distribution.
2021-01-02T14:38:46Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-02T14:40:43Z beach: So how do I update a single distribution in Quicklisp?
2021-01-02T14:41:15Z phoe: (ql:update-dist "quicklisp")
2021-01-02T14:41:17Z SpaceIgo` joined #lisp
2021-01-02T14:41:53Z beach: It is Alexandria that I want to update.
2021-01-02T14:42:09Z phoe: it's not a distribution, it's a system
2021-01-02T14:42:24Z beach: Oh?  OK, sorry.
2021-01-02T14:42:58Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-02T14:43:07Z beach: It is under "dists" in ~/quicklisp
2021-01-02T14:43:27Z phoe: no, under "dists" is most likely "quicklisp"
2021-01-02T14:43:32Z phoe: and only then there's alexandria
2021-01-02T14:43:44Z phoe: unless you have a separate alexandria dist, which would be the first time I've seen one!
2021-01-02T14:43:52Z beach: Right you are.
2021-01-02T14:44:00Z phoe: anyway - I'd clone alexandria into your local-projects and checkout whatever commit you need
2021-01-02T14:44:28Z phoe: that'll take precedence over whatever quicklisp downloads for you
2021-01-02T14:44:36Z beach: Are you saying I can't update just Alexandria in Quicklisp?
2021-01-02T14:45:36Z beach: I guess I could update everything.
2021-01-02T14:45:44Z beach: Some stuff will break as usual.
2021-01-02T14:45:58Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-02T14:47:01Z phoe: yes, you cannot easily update just system X in quicklisp
2021-01-02T14:47:11Z phoe: quicklisp dists are snapshots of multiple projects built together
2021-01-02T14:47:12Z beach: Got it.
2021-01-02T14:47:19Z phoe: at least the standard dists, that is
2021-01-02T14:47:20Z beach: Might as well bite the bullet now.
2021-01-02T14:47:34Z SpaceIgo` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T14:47:42Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T14:47:55Z loke[m]: beach: When was the last time you did a QL update?
2021-01-02T14:48:03Z beach: I don't remember.
2021-01-02T14:48:03Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T14:48:21Z beach: But things did break, as predicted.
2021-01-02T14:49:22Z beach: Oh, well.
2021-01-02T14:49:45Z loke[m]: It's easier to deal with if one updates every time QL updates.
2021-01-02T14:50:15Z beach: Yes, but I don't want to deal with it at all.
2021-01-02T14:50:22Z beach: I need a system administrator.
2021-01-02T14:51:22Z beach: This is going to be hell, as predicted again.
2021-01-02T14:54:32Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T14:58:25Z troydm: I have a weird thing going with jsonrpc on MacOS and inside bordeaux thread
2021-01-02T14:58:46Z troydm: if I bind to a port inside a thread jsonrpc:server-listen is not working
2021-01-02T14:58:47Z phoe: beach: need help?
2021-01-02T14:59:02Z troydm: however if I bind to a port in main thread, everything works fine
2021-01-02T14:59:04Z beach: phoe: That would be great.
2021-01-02T14:59:13Z beach: phoe: Shall we do it in #sicl?
2021-01-02T14:59:17Z troydm: I'm using SBCL 2.0.11 on MacOS
2021-01-02T15:00:17Z phoe: beach: OK
2021-01-02T15:00:28Z phoe: troydm: sounds like some deal with dynamic variables
2021-01-02T15:00:30Z phoe: these are thread-local
2021-01-02T15:01:19Z troydm: doesn't seem so, as only variables that are used inside thread is global *server* and local port
2021-01-02T15:01:25Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:02:10Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-02T15:02:39Z troydm: basicly what I'm doing is debugging why https://github.com/cxxxr/cl-lsp is not working on MacOS as expected, as when I start cl-lsp with args tcp 10003
2021-01-02T15:02:44Z troydm: it doesn't binds to a port
2021-01-02T15:02:51Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-02T15:03:12Z troydm: moving jsonrpc:server-listen call outside of bt:make-thread makes it work fine
2021-01-02T15:03:49Z troydm: I'm using this cl-lsp fork https://github.com/ailisp/cl-lsp
2021-01-02T15:04:15Z troydm: but it doesn't seems like it's something cl-lsp related, more probably related to jsonrpc and bordeaux-threads
2021-01-02T15:04:37Z _paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:05:48Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T15:05:58Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T15:06:18Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:07:22Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T15:07:39Z andreyor1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-02T15:11:57Z ykm joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:13:47Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T15:18:16Z phoe: "Value of 'NIL in (THE NIL (PROGN 'NIL)) is NIL, not a NIL."
2021-01-02T15:18:20Z phoe: poetry
2021-01-02T15:19:22Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6)
2021-01-02T15:24:00Z ykm quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-02T15:25:21Z ykm joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:29:38Z contrapunctus: phoe: wat
2021-01-02T15:29:39Z charlie770 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:33:48Z phoe: contrapunctus: (ql:quickload :cl-unicode) on my machine
2021-01-02T15:38:38Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:39:09Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T15:43:04Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:44:34Z troydm: after ton of debugging, found the root cause of the problem
2021-01-02T15:45:02Z phoe: troydm: what was it?
2021-01-02T15:45:37Z troydm: it seems like jsonrpc is designed this way that when you bind a server on tcp it needs to load (ql:quickload "jsonrpc/transport/tcp" :silent t)
2021-01-02T15:45:52Z troydm: but this gets stuck if it runs inside bt thread
2021-01-02T15:45:58Z troydm: I don't know why it gets stuck
2021-01-02T15:46:01Z troydm: but it gets stuck
2021-01-02T15:46:14Z troydm: maybe I'm using older quickload
2021-01-02T15:46:21Z troydm: I'm not sure
2021-01-02T15:47:29Z SpaceIgo` joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:49:24Z phoe: weird architecture
2021-01-02T15:51:25Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-02T15:52:16Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:55:32Z paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:57:14Z emma joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:57:14Z emma quit (Changing host)
2021-01-02T15:57:14Z emma joined #lisp
2021-01-02T15:57:32Z _paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T16:00:05Z kinope quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-02T16:01:57Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-02T16:03:49Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T16:04:58Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T16:06:19Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-02T16:10:58Z Xach: beach: i have not tried in a while
2021-01-02T16:12:36Z troydm: opened an issue for this https://github.com/cxxxr/jsonrpc/issues/27
2021-01-02T16:14:14Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:17:01Z mrios joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:17:22Z charlie770 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T16:18:26Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:20:53Z mrios is now known as mrios22
2021-01-02T16:22:37Z charlie770 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:22:43Z charlie770 left #lisp
2021-01-02T16:22:47Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:24:30Z SpaceIgo` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T16:24:49Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:25:07Z _paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:26:19Z SpaceIgor2075: Hello! Can anybody recommend any resources to learn about modules,packages, asdf and projects? i am a newbie
2021-01-02T16:26:24Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:26:35Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: yes, one second
2021-01-02T16:26:36Z jjong quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T16:26:40Z SpaceIgor2075: (a CL newbie)
2021-01-02T16:26:46Z phoe: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf <- this one is a first
2021-01-02T16:26:54Z phoe: it has an unfortunate title but pretty good content
2021-01-02T16:27:04Z TMA quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T16:27:23Z phoe: once you've absorbed this document and played in the REPL with the knowledge you've gained this way, please come back for a bit more about ASDF, systems, and projects
2021-01-02T16:28:36Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T16:30:15Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: Thanks.
2021-01-02T16:30:32Z SpaceIgor2075: (This title is awesome, i love it)
2021-01-02T16:31:00Z phoe: (depends on the person; some people like the sarcasm, some are allergic to it)
2021-01-02T16:32:28Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:32:33Z Xach: i don't like its POV of "isn't this dumb system dumb? well, here's how it works" - I'd prefer an explanation from someone with less contempt for it.
2021-01-02T16:32:53Z Xach: IIRC the explanation in PCL is ok
2021-01-02T16:33:11Z phoe: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html
2021-01-02T16:33:22Z phoe: yes, I see
2021-01-02T16:33:53Z beach: Xach: It's OK.  I see Alexandria fixed the incorrect clause order.  That's all I need for now.
2021-01-02T16:34:33Z Xach: beach: whenever i increase strictness (by updating my sbcl), something that is 5-10 years since last maintenance breaks
2021-01-02T16:34:58Z Xach: the current problem is a widely-used library named "access" which uses function designators wrong
2021-01-02T16:35:12Z beach: I can very well imagine.
2021-01-02T16:35:36Z phoe: Xach: is it possible for you to also test on high safety/debug settings? this exposes bugs that are not exposed otherwise, like this cl-unicode bug that I just encountered
2021-01-02T16:36:03Z phoe: can I anyhow help with this process if help is needed?
2021-01-02T16:36:08Z Xach: phoe: oh, that would be interesting
2021-01-02T16:36:26Z phoe: Xach: see https://github.com/edicl/cl-unicode/issues/25 for some poetry
2021-01-02T16:36:40Z phoe: only seems to appear with SBCL compiler restricted to debug 3 safety 3.
2021-01-02T16:37:07Z phoe: it's fixed now, but the unpatched version is in the current dist
2021-01-02T16:37:12Z jurov_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:39:29Z beach: Oh, so you tried it with lower safety?  And it passed?
2021-01-02T16:41:04Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T16:41:11Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:41:43Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:43:41Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-02T16:44:38Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-02T16:45:29Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:45:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:46:33Z Xach gives hi debug/safety a try
2021-01-02T16:47:10Z phoe: beach: yes
2021-01-02T16:47:21Z phoe: on default optimization settings it seems no error is generated
2021-01-02T16:47:52Z phoe: I assume that is why this cl-unicode issue was not noticed by Xach when preparing the QL distribution
2021-01-02T16:48:02Z beach: Yes, I see.
2021-01-02T16:48:25Z phoe: obviously we need to lower our expectations about safety to properly use cl-unicode
2021-01-02T16:48:28Z beach: Definitely a good idea to test systems that way then.
2021-01-02T16:48:39Z beach: Heh, no way!
2021-01-02T16:48:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T16:49:04Z phoe: no unicode for you then, you must make-do with ISO-8859-1
2021-01-02T16:49:09Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:49:16Z beach: :(
2021-01-02T16:49:43Z phoe: (or download the patched version, which seems that you have already done)
2021-01-02T16:49:52Z beach: Indeed.
2021-01-02T16:50:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T16:50:59Z jurov joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:50:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T16:51:09Z heisig: In case anyone is wondering, the correct way to restrict SBCL's compiler policy is (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 3).
2021-01-02T16:52:21Z heisig: (Just posting it here, because I didn't know it some time ago)
2021-01-02T16:53:10Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:53:17Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T16:53:35Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:54:49Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T16:54:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T16:55:40Z jurov_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:56:15Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:58:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T16:59:08Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T16:59:15Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:59:20Z makomo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T16:59:40Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-02T17:00:41Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:00:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T17:02:00Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:03:59Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:03:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T17:04:32Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:05:15Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:05:52Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:05:52Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T17:07:25Z makomo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T17:07:56Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:10:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T17:10:38Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:11:00Z VincentVega: guys, i am reading the cl-containers docs for red-black trees and don't get one thing: is there really no function to find the closest element to a given or am i just not seeing it?
2021-01-02T17:11:04Z VincentVega: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-containers/documentation/metabang.cl-containers-package/class-red--black--tree.html
2021-01-02T17:11:23Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T17:11:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:13:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T17:14:15Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:18:15Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:22:42Z judson_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T17:23:05Z ck_: VincentVega: what about best-item ?
2021-01-02T17:26:22Z VincentVega: ck_: i think best item computes the function on each node
2021-01-02T17:27:22Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T17:27:32Z ck_: yes, looks that way. It depends on what you mean by 'closest' then. If you're looking for something like a range test for the ordering that the tree uses.. well I don't see one either
2021-01-02T17:27:44Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:28:26Z VincentVega: ck_: yep, that one : )
2021-01-02T17:30:02Z Colleen quit (Quit: Colleen)
2021-01-02T17:30:29Z ck_: looks like you get to implement your own tree walking then, have fun
2021-01-02T17:30:48Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:30:51Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:31:23Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:31:33Z VincentVega: ck_: looks like it, thanks for the sanity check!
2021-01-02T17:32:57Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:35:03Z ck_: if you need this type of look-up often or mostly, maybe a different data structure would be a better choice
2021-01-02T17:35:31Z ck_: an Interval Tree for example
2021-01-02T17:37:16Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T17:37:24Z SpaceIgor2075: is (set 'x 13) equivalent to (setq x 13)?
2021-01-02T17:37:50Z aindilis` joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:38:15Z VincentVega: ck_: nah, it's for some occasional queries, so it's cool : )
2021-01-02T17:38:18Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T17:38:47Z Xach: SpaceIgor2075: no
2021-01-02T17:39:05Z rogersm quit
2021-01-02T17:39:17Z Xach: SpaceIgor2075: consider (let ((x 42)) (setq x 13))
2021-01-02T17:39:33Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:54:26Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:55:26Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:55:29Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T17:55:44Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-02T17:58:32Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-02T18:09:08Z euandreh quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T18:09:48Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T18:16:26Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T18:16:41Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:20:42Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T18:21:07Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:21:29Z benjamindc: IS there a way to get "(asdf:test-system "system")" to return an exit code of 1 when executed in a script for CI pipelines?
2021-01-02T18:23:34Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T18:23:49Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:24:47Z phoe: benjamindc: the convention is generally that if asdf:test-system signals an error, then it has failed
2021-01-02T18:25:08Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-02T18:25:56Z phoe: so you can do it like (handler-bind ((error (lambda (x) (print x) (print stacktrace) (exit 1)))) (asdf:test-system :foo) (exit 0))
2021-01-02T18:29:27Z aeth: benjamindc: In general, just ignore asdf:test-system in CI pipelines and just directly use the non-portable return value of whatever test suite you're using. ASDF doesn't want to have asdf:test-system return a non-portable return value, making it near-useless for CI
2021-01-02T18:29:58Z aeth: phoe's answer is the correct answer, but it winds up being like 5 lines of code just to return something that your test suite already returns that asdf:test-system is blocking...
2021-01-02T18:31:12Z aeth: (non-portable as in not portable between test suites)
2021-01-02T18:31:48Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T18:34:15Z aeth: benjamindc: Sorry, phoe's answer is almost the correct answer. You want to exit with (uiop:quit 1)
2021-01-02T18:34:23Z benjamindc: aeth are you using a custom test suite for your zombi-raptor library?
2021-01-02T18:34:49Z aeth: no, but I'm not very happy with any of them having used almost all of them in different projects of mine over the years
2021-01-02T18:35:04Z aeth: if you merged them all together you might have a decent feature set :-p
2021-01-02T18:37:39Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T18:38:00Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:40:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T18:40:28Z benjamindc: aeth i follow your advice, but my script returns 0 when there are failing tests: https://pastebin.com/zgKD6F4n
2021-01-02T18:40:42Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:41:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T18:42:08Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:42:13Z phoe: depends on your test framework
2021-01-02T18:42:32Z phoe: if your test framework returns gracefully when you run the test suite and there are failures, then you get what you see
2021-01-02T18:42:49Z benjamindc: curses
2021-01-02T18:42:49Z aeth: benjamindc: most of them return the number of failed tests or can be configured to do so
2021-01-02T18:42:50Z phoe: you'll need to analyze the results manually and if there are any failures then you'll need to (exit 1)
2021-01-02T18:43:05Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:43:16Z benjamindc: alright. thanks for the advice
2021-01-02T18:44:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T18:44:42Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:45:56Z surabax_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:49:18Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T18:51:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T18:51:43Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:51:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T18:52:06Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:52:31Z surabax__ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:52:33Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T18:53:17Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:54:25Z surabax__ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-02T18:54:56Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-02T18:54:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T18:55:37Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:55:45Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T18:55:52Z surabax_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T18:56:02Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6)
2021-01-02T19:02:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T19:02:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:03:17Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:06:32Z thmprover joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:06:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T19:07:10Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-02T19:07:38Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:12:23Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T19:12:30Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:16:32Z KREYREEN quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T19:16:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T19:16:51Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:17:11Z KREYREEN joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:19:25Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T19:22:53Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-02T19:22:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T19:23:10Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:25:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T19:25:44Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:28:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T19:29:09Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:29:32Z KREYREEN quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T19:29:52Z KREYREEN joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:31:19Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit)
2021-01-02T19:31:19Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T19:31:44Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:32:09Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:32:20Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:34:16Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T19:35:34Z ykm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T19:35:37Z oni_on_ion joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:35:57Z oni-on-ion quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T19:38:10Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:43:28Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T19:44:36Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:46:31Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-02T19:46:56Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T19:47:07Z fanta1 quit (Quit: fanta1)
2021-01-02T19:48:38Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-02T19:49:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T19:49:52Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:58:31Z KREYREEEN joined #lisp
2021-01-02T19:58:50Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T20:00:43Z KREYREEN quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T20:01:55Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-02T20:11:07Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-02T20:15:58Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-02T20:17:02Z emma: Not exactly lisp but do any of you enjoy electronic music like trance, house, or techno?
2021-01-02T20:17:28Z phoe gently guides the discussion to #lispcafe
2021-01-02T20:17:45Z phoe: I think there will be some people in there who'd like to indulge in that discussion
2021-01-02T20:17:48Z phoe: (possibly including me)
2021-01-02T20:18:14Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-02T20:27:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T20:28:12Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-02T20:28:33Z KREYREEEN quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T20:29:50Z KREYREN joined #lisp
2021-01-02T20:30:09Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-02T20:32:33Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T20:39:04Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T20:39:22Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-02T20:47:46Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-02T20:52:07Z barbanegra left #lisp
2021-01-02T20:58:18Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-02T20:59:28Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T21:00:17Z jw4 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T21:00:29Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-02T21:00:52Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T21:04:02Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T21:04:30Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-02T21:08:53Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T21:12:26Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T21:22:07Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-02T21:23:37Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-02T21:24:16Z kam1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-02T21:24:40Z entre-parenteses joined #lisp
2021-01-02T21:25:24Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-02T21:32:54Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-02T21:35:50Z Xach: phoe: building with safety 3/debug 3 is a lot slower
2021-01-02T21:36:30Z phoe: Xach: hmmm
2021-01-02T21:36:47Z phoe: I can imagine the generated code must contain much more debug information and runtime checks
2021-01-02T21:36:50Z Xach: almost done though
2021-01-02T21:36:59Z phoe: possibly that's why generating it is slower, too
2021-01-02T21:37:05Z phoe: but it's just speculation on my side
2021-01-02T21:37:22Z phoe: did that uncover any new issues so far?
2021-01-02T21:37:49Z Xach: no report until the end
2021-01-02T21:38:00Z phoe wiggles in anticipation
2021-01-02T21:38:31Z rjcks_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T21:39:45Z Lycurgus quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T21:40:05Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-02T21:41:50Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T21:42:06Z rjcks quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-02T21:47:34Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T21:49:29Z Xach: almost at the end
2021-01-02T21:53:04Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T21:53:20Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-02T21:53:43Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp
2021-01-02T21:57:42Z Xach: phoe: http://report.quicklisp.org/2021-01-02/failure-report.html has the report but there's a lot of noise from the things sbcl broke recently
2021-01-02T21:58:11Z Xach: but some other things are in there too
2021-01-02T21:58:18Z Xach: gtirb breakage seems new
2021-01-02T21:58:24Z phoe: Unhandled SIMPLE-CONDITION in thread #<SB-THREAD:THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {1001A50103}>: break
2021-01-02T21:58:28Z phoe: well
2021-01-02T21:59:22Z phoe: The constant MINUTES-PER-INTERNAL-TIME-UNIT is being redefined (from 1.6666668e-8 to 1.6666666e-8)
2021-01-02T21:59:25Z phoe: this one is interesting
2021-01-02T21:59:44Z phoe: there's lots of those
2021-01-02T21:59:47Z Xach: yes
2021-01-02T21:59:59Z Xach: i don't get the increased # of arithmetic error COMMON-LISP:FLOATING-POINT-INVALID-OPERATION signalled
2021-01-02T22:00:45Z Xach: I don't know if the "unknown type specifier" errors are sbcl or debug/safety
2021-01-02T22:01:00Z phoe: floating-point-invalid-operation? hmmmmm
2021-01-02T22:01:09Z phoe: which SBCL did you build on?
2021-01-02T22:01:11Z phoe: current master?
2021-01-02T22:01:36Z Xach: phoe: not quite current.  2.0.11.142-1b0795826 (it's at the top of the report)
2021-01-02T22:01:43Z phoe: oh
2021-01-02T22:01:52Z phoe: the current master includes some floating point stuff that me and mfiano have coerced stassats into adding
2021-01-02T22:01:57Z phoe: so it's good that it's not because of this
2021-01-02T22:02:09Z phoe: oh
2021-01-02T22:02:31Z phoe: it's trying to #'< two NaNs
2021-01-02T22:02:50Z phoe: or rather, it's trying to make a numeric type with NaNs...
2021-01-02T22:03:00Z Xach: Which?
2021-01-02T22:03:04Z phoe: http://report.quicklisp.org/2021-01-02/failure-report/gtirb.html#gtirb
2021-01-02T22:03:13Z phoe: (SB-KERNEL:MAKE-NUMERIC-TYPE :CLASS COMMON-LISP:FLOAT :FORMAT COMMON-LISP:SINGLE-FLOAT :COMPLEXP :REAL :LOW #<SINGLE-FLOAT quiet NaN> :HIGH #<SINGLE-FLOAT quiet NaN> :ENUMERABLE COMMON-LISP:NIL)
2021-01-02T22:03:18Z phoe: this cannot end well
2021-01-02T22:03:53Z Xach: there are other failures with the same message
2021-01-02T22:03:57Z Xach: ryeboy and others
2021-01-02T22:04:01Z phoe: yes
2021-01-02T22:04:33Z Xach: are they all from the same root cause?
2021-01-02T22:04:39Z phoe: no idea
2021-01-02T22:07:01Z phoe: hmmmm
2021-01-02T22:07:24Z phoe: yes, seems so
2021-01-02T22:08:11Z Alfr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T22:08:17Z Xach: would it help to use latest sbcl instead?
2021-01-02T22:08:34Z phoe: I don't think so
2021-01-02T22:08:38Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T22:09:16Z Xach does not know what it all means
2021-01-02T22:09:25Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-02T22:09:31Z phoe: ryeboy chokes on protobuf
2021-01-02T22:09:42Z phoe: osmpbf does, too
2021-01-02T22:10:03Z Xach: ah ok
2021-01-02T22:10:06Z phoe: in here in particular: https://github.com/brown/protobuf/blob/master/protocol-buffer.lisp#L109-L121
2021-01-02T22:10:28Z phoe: for some reason, this causes the SBCL compiler to try and compare two NaNs via #'>
2021-01-02T22:10:31Z phoe: which traps the FPU
2021-01-02T22:10:38Z phoe: which bubbles up as an error.
2021-01-02T22:10:45Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-02T22:10:58Z phoe: gtirb also chokes on protobuf
2021-01-02T22:12:52Z phoe: I can reproduce the protobuf failure
2021-01-02T22:13:01Z Xach: oh loard
2021-01-02T22:14:55Z phoe: https://github.com/brown/protobuf/issues/21
2021-01-02T22:16:18Z mfiano: Is it time for the ecosystem to start adopting versioned dependencies yet?
2021-01-02T22:17:04Z Xach: i don't think that would help my recent problems, which stem from SBCL detecting more invalid code at compile-time.
2021-01-02T22:17:06Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-02T22:17:26Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T22:17:42Z phoe: (declaim (sb-ext:shut-up-and-compile-it-worked-on-the-previous-release))
2021-01-02T22:17:49Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-02T22:18:39Z phoe: mfiano: versioned dependencies can't help you if all versions are broken
2021-01-02T22:18:43Z Xach: phoe: do you think the error is a mistake in protobuf or a mistake in sbcl?
2021-01-02T22:19:08Z phoe: Xach: I have no idea - it is on the intersection
2021-01-02T22:19:11Z phoe: lemme check real quick
2021-01-02T22:21:09Z phoe: ...
2021-01-02T22:21:15Z phoe: this is a SBCL bug
2021-01-02T22:21:22Z phoe: (cl:define-symbol-macro foo #.(sb-kernel:make-single-float -1)) works fine on default safety/speed
2021-01-02T22:21:27Z Xach: NOOOO
2021-01-02T22:21:35Z phoe: but chokes on debug 3/safety 3
2021-01-02T22:22:37Z mfiano: Does not choke here
2021-01-02T22:23:24Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-02T22:23:59Z phoe: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1909881
2021-01-02T22:24:07Z phoe: try wrapping that in compile nil lambda
2021-01-02T22:24:28Z junkicide joined #lisp
2021-01-02T22:24:50Z mfiano: That fails even with default debug/safety
2021-01-02T22:24:57Z phoe: welp
2021-01-02T22:25:13Z phoe: no idea then! it built fine for Xach on default debug/safety
2021-01-02T22:26:50Z mfiano: Minimum reproducible error: (compile nil (lambda () #.(sb-kernel:make-single-float -1)))
2021-01-02T22:28:13Z phoe: nice
2021-01-02T22:29:09Z phoe: why did it work previously though?
2021-01-02T22:29:18Z phoe: why does protobuf seem to compile on default settings?
2021-01-02T22:31:48Z phoe thonk
2021-01-02T22:35:55Z phoe: enough thonking for today
2021-01-02T22:35:56Z phoe: good night
2021-01-02T22:38:34Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella)
2021-01-02T22:40:45Z slyrus: nice find phoe!
2021-01-02T22:40:52Z phoe: slyrus: wasn't me
2021-01-02T22:41:04Z slyrus: ah, mfiano?
2021-01-02T22:41:08Z phoe: all I did was tell Xach to build with a different safety/debug
2021-01-02T22:41:24Z phoe: the rest is directed by robert b. weide
2021-01-02T22:41:30Z slyrus: got it, thanks
2021-01-02T22:41:46Z mfiano: Wasn't me this time. I did find about a dozen SBCL bugs over the last few weeks that have all been fixed, but not this one
2021-01-02T22:46:25Z rjcks_ quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-02T22:48:36Z entre-parenteses quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T22:51:04Z travv0 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T22:52:45Z dhil joined #lisp
2021-01-02T22:53:17Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-02T22:55:17Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-02T22:57:59Z v0|d joined #lisp
2021-01-02T23:00:03Z _paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-02T23:07:34Z thmprover: Is there a way to verify `double-float` is in fact IEEE 754 double precision (since the CL standard doesn't require it)?
2021-01-02T23:10:23Z aeth: there's an :IEEE-FLOATING-POINT in *features* but they might not all have that because I don't think that's standard
2021-01-02T23:10:26Z phoe: #+ieee-floating-point t #+ieee-floating-point nil
2021-01-02T23:10:49Z aeth: CCL doesn't have it
2021-01-02T23:10:50Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_featur.htm
2021-01-02T23:10:55Z aeth: so you could do (or ccl ieee-floating-point)
2021-01-02T23:11:13Z aeth: weird, then, that CCL doesn't have it
2021-01-02T23:12:26Z phoe: aeth: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/355
2021-01-02T23:12:37Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-02T23:12:42Z thmprover: I'd prefer to have an error raised if the CL implementation does not support IEEE 754, so the user would know and be sufficiently alarmed/informed.
2021-01-02T23:13:02Z mfiano: CCL is non-conforming in this regard. I brought it up a while ago to them
2021-01-02T23:13:02Z aeth: thmprover: based on the implementation support of float-features, IEEE is pretty much guaranteed to be present on any living implementation unless you stretch the definition of "living" to include CLISP. https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features
2021-01-02T23:13:10Z phoe: mfiano: oh? what do you mean?
2021-01-02T23:13:33Z phoe: you mean the missing feature?
2021-01-02T23:13:34Z mfiano: :ieee-floating-point
2021-01-02T23:13:36Z mfiano:     If present, indicates that the implementation purports to conform to the requirements of IEEE Standard for Binary Floating-Point Arithmetic.
2021-01-02T23:13:40Z mfiano: Their documentation purports to conform
2021-01-02T23:14:05Z phoe: yes, I've made an issue for it now
2021-01-02T23:14:07Z frodef: did clisp die?
2021-01-02T23:14:10Z charles`: What is the deal with base64 there seems to be two packages for it
2021-01-02T23:14:23Z phoe: frodef: depends on your definition of "die"
2021-01-02T23:14:24Z aeth: Airship Scheme does #+(or ccl ieee-floating-point) and probably will have to for some time even if CCL adds it to *features*.
2021-01-02T23:14:27Z phoe: charles`: only two?
2021-01-02T23:14:32Z thmprover: aeth: I hoped that most modern Lisp implementations support it, but I am doing numerical analysis, so I want to be *certain*.
2021-01-02T23:14:45Z aeth: thmprover: Then use float-features and if it doesn't run, then it's uncertain :-)
2021-01-02T23:14:52Z phoe: there's base64, cl-base64, qbase64, and s-base64, that's four in Quicklisp
2021-01-02T23:14:53Z charles`: two being loaded in and arguing with each other
2021-01-02T23:15:01Z phoe: charles`: oh
2021-01-02T23:15:05Z aeth: thmprover: you probably want float-features:with-float-traps-masked anyway
2021-01-02T23:15:21Z phoe: nickname conflicts?
2021-01-02T23:15:26Z charles`: indeed
2021-01-02T23:15:44Z aeth: frodef: No release in 10 years as of last July... So 10.5 years now, I guess.
2021-01-02T23:15:50Z phoe: escalate to the maintainers and tell them to fix their stuff up. we've been in this ground multiple times now, and local nicknames exist nowadays.
2021-01-02T23:15:57Z phoe: s/in/on/
2021-01-02T23:16:06Z mfiano: There is plenty of alive software that has not made a release
2021-01-02T23:16:12Z aeth: frodef: And the pile of things that it's missing because of that is climbing, e.g. package local nicknames
2021-01-02T23:16:13Z thmprover: aeth: good to know about the package; but you mean, I should wrap all floating point computation in a `(with-float-traps-masked ...)`?
2021-01-02T23:16:31Z aeth: thmprover: and t, i.e. mask them all
2021-01-02T23:16:34Z aeth: So you get NaN/inf
2021-01-02T23:16:38Z aeth: Instead of errors.
2021-01-02T23:16:38Z phoe: aeth: there's a MR with PLNs waiting
2021-01-02T23:16:40Z aeth: Then at the end error
2021-01-02T23:16:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-02T23:16:47Z thmprover: aeth: gotchya, thanks for the heads up :)
2021-01-02T23:16:53Z phoe: just not merged.
2021-01-02T23:17:13Z aeth: mfiano: Plenty of alive software hasn't made a release in 10 years. However, Common Lisp gets this ecosystem stability because it shifts the burden of a lot of bitrot onto the implementations, which must continue to add things over time.
2021-01-02T23:17:39Z aeth: mfiano: Sure, portable CL will continue to run in CLISP as long as it remains ANSI compliant with no compliance bugs (which undoubtably exist in every implementation)
2021-01-02T23:17:57Z aeth: mfiano: But most nontrivial CL uses some nonportable code, either as extensions or libraries.
2021-01-02T23:18:01Z mfiano: C++ is over there if you require implementations to change
2021-01-02T23:18:38Z aeth: e.g. If you use package local nicknames, you can't say that CLISP is living because you're actively working to break large parts of the Quicklisp ecosystem in CLISP.
2021-01-02T23:18:55Z aeth: That's just the most popular one, there's lots of other assumptions people make that don't work on CLISP.
2021-01-02T23:19:12Z mfiano: One can use defpackage-plus to gracefully fall back to global nicknames if you need to test your code on CCL
2021-01-02T23:20:02Z aeth: float-features is another one. Most numerical code should have with-float-traps-masked, and maybe you can have a fallback for implementations that float-features doesn't support, but if you're using it, you might also want to be able to deal with infinities and NaNs
2021-01-02T23:20:08Z mfiano: I try not to use implementation features apart from PLN because I value portability, and it took a look time before I accepted I would like to use PLN because of this
2021-01-02T23:20:16Z mfiano: s/look/long/
2021-01-02T23:21:12Z mfiano: also s/CCL/CLISP/
2021-01-02T23:21:27Z mfiano: I cant think today apparently. Off to go read a book
2021-01-02T23:21:56Z aeth: I don't test in or support CLISP anymore because enough of my dependencies are broken in it these days that it's not worth the effort to figure out exactly what subset I can test in it.
2021-01-02T23:23:37Z mfiano: Reminds me of cl-opengl and how it is incredibly slow because of traps
2021-01-02T23:23:52Z aeth: The worst dependency of mine is probably cl-sdl2, which I need to replace at some point. I tested it in Roswell a while back and it only ran in SBCL, CCL, and ECL.
2021-01-02T23:24:05Z aeth: And barely in ECL.
2021-01-02T23:24:37Z mfiano: It wraps float trapping around every call, and on the way out in unwind-protect, which accounted for about 30% of the runtime last time I made a flamegraph
2021-01-02T23:26:16Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T23:26:27Z charles`: Speaking of CLISP, can it do threads?
2021-01-02T23:26:34Z phoe: AFAIK yes
2021-01-02T23:29:28Z mfiano: One can push a feature, but a large number of shader programs would fail to link on Intel/Mesa.
2021-01-02T23:29:44Z phoe: what feature?
2021-01-02T23:30:06Z mfiano: forget off hand. the one cl-opengl uses to control masking traps
2021-01-02T23:30:14Z phoe: oh, I see
2021-01-02T23:30:18Z mfiano: Here is a flamegraph view of one draw call for example. Look at that that time spent: https://i.lisp.cl/JmiUBd.png
2021-01-02T23:35:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-02T23:36:56Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-02T23:37:52Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-02T23:38:25Z mfiano: Xach: curious, I recall recently you did some image thing with an octree. Did you write the octree yourself, or use some library?
2021-01-02T23:48:12Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T23:54:13Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-02T23:55:03Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-02T23:55:31Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-03T00:05:31Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T00:06:03Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-03T00:09:20Z VincentVega quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T00:10:24Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-03T00:13:37Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T00:18:58Z Average-user joined #lisp
2021-01-03T00:19:14Z Average-user: join #lispcafe
2021-01-03T00:19:34Z phoe hands Average-user a solidus
2021-01-03T00:20:03Z Average-user: Yup, thanks. My keyboard sometimes trolls me
2021-01-03T00:23:33Z knowayback joined #lisp
2021-01-03T00:24:13Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T00:24:14Z Average-user quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-01-03T00:24:48Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T00:25:02Z junkicide quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T00:33:14Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-03T00:36:05Z charles`: I emailed the author of cl-base64 to remove his nickname
2021-01-03T00:39:07Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T00:41:01Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T00:43:16Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-03T00:48:25Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T00:52:07Z leo_song_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T00:52:10Z leo_song quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T00:52:25Z leo_song_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T00:52:38Z leo_song joined #lisp
2021-01-03T00:54:38Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T00:54:40Z mankaev_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T00:54:46Z frodef: The package system (and missing module system) really needs revamping.
2021-01-03T00:54:47Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T00:56:09Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-03T00:56:13Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-03T00:57:10Z wsinatra_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-03T01:00:58Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-03T01:03:04Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:03:04Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T01:03:21Z moon-child: is there a version of mapcar which errors if the lists it applies to aren't the same length?
2021-01-03T01:04:04Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-03T01:04:05Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-03T01:04:25Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T01:06:13Z kam1 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:13Z Jesin quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:13Z vhost- quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:13Z aeth quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:13Z bilal__ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z elflng quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z sxmx quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z grobe0ba quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z xsperry quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z Mandus quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z phoe624 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z cg505 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z phantomics quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z cross quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z Cthulhux quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z grumble quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z catern quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z justinmcp quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z cpape quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z dwts quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:06:14Z docl quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T01:09:03Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z vhost- joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z xsperry joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z bilal__ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z elflng joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z sxmx joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z grobe0ba joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z Mandus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z phoe624 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z cg505 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z phantomics joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z cross joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z Cthulhux joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z grumble joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z justinmcp joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:31Z cpape joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:32Z dwts joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:09:32Z docl joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:10:10Z dwts quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-03T01:10:10Z kam1 quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-03T01:10:10Z sxmx quit (Ping timeout: 249 seconds)
2021-01-03T01:10:45Z sxmx joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:11:35Z dwts joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:11:54Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T01:12:37Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:13:28Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:17:29Z mfiano: I would think that would be too slow to be useful
2021-01-03T01:17:49Z mfiano: So I would say no, unless some obscure library has something
2021-01-03T01:18:31Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:18:47Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think so.
2021-01-03T01:19:12Z no-defun-allowed: You iterate over all the lists, then instead of terminating when one is '(), you check if all are '(), and if not, then you signal an error.
2021-01-03T01:19:18Z aeth: ah, netsplit
2021-01-03T01:20:09Z Lycurgus quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T01:20:12Z aeth: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1609635801#1609635801
2021-01-03T01:20:26Z aeth: Fortunately, at least one log bot was on the "correct" side of the netsplit for anyone else who was confused
2021-01-03T01:20:43Z aeth: The rest of us were wondering what these answers had to do with the package system. :-)
2021-01-03T01:21:49Z aeth: frodef: There are some low-hanging fruits in package features, including hierarchical and versioned, although you can sort of fake the former with reexporting symbols and you can definitely do the latter manually (although only Alexandria does this afaik).
2021-01-03T01:22:05Z aeth: frodef: But the solutions would be controversial so it would take a lot to get anything.
2021-01-03T01:22:35Z catern joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:23:08Z frodef: aeth: The problem with CL is, it was so good back in 1990 that it's still "good enough" :-)
2021-01-03T01:23:31Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-03T01:24:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:27:41Z aeth: frodef: No, it's more like... how many > 100 kloc projects are there written in CL that aren't CL compilers?
2021-01-03T01:28:02Z aeth: Edge cases only really show up in really, really large projects.
2021-01-03T01:28:22Z aeth: And compilers can just add whatever internals they want, so they're not really having to deal with mostly-portable CL.
2021-01-03T01:28:24Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:29:33Z frodef: aeth: I tend to disagree, I suspect the lack of a global "module" system/architecture is holding CL back.
2021-01-03T01:30:24Z no-defun-allowed: How do you handle having version X for one package, and version Y for another?
2021-01-03T01:31:31Z no-defun-allowed: You might put versions in the package "names" or something, so they don't collide. But then would FIND-SYMBOL take a versioned name? These things seem hard with packages as bundles of sybmols.
2021-01-03T01:31:34Z no-defun-allowed: *symbols
2021-01-03T01:31:43Z frodef: no-defun-allowed: not easily with today's package system, I believe.
2021-01-03T01:31:55Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: well, versioned can follow from... some kinds of hierarchical
2021-01-03T01:32:12Z aeth: The new version just inherits from the old one for the most part. Sometimes removing, but mostly adding.
2021-01-03T01:32:38Z no-defun-allowed: I think first class global environments, specifically sticking each module in a FCGE with its dependencies, is a good idea, but then you have edge cases like one module returning a FOO:B that's different to another module removing FOO:B, cause they came from different package objects.
2021-01-03T01:33:11Z frodef: no-defun-allowed: FCGE?
2021-01-03T01:33:24Z no-defun-allowed: So you might want to have package objects collude to not create duplicate symbol objects somehow, I dunno.
2021-01-03T01:33:31Z no-defun-allowed: frodef: "First class global environment"
2021-01-03T01:34:25Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: Versioned packages are way simpler than FCGE, though. Essentially you want to inherit symbols in a new package from an old one (several libraries do this, including UIOP and defpackage-plus afaik)
2021-01-03T01:34:38Z White_Flame: PLN would allow you to have package foo-3.5: and package foo-3.6: simultaneously, but I think those canonical package versions are better handled in the .asd file than scattered around the source's defpackages & imports
2021-01-03T01:34:48Z no-defun-allowed: Gnuxie tells me that in Self and Newspeak, module imports are just assignments to slots, so you can provide whatever objects you want. But packages, querying the environment for packages, and all that introspective stuff makes it harder.
2021-01-03T01:35:15Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: Except, sometimes, you want to do one of three things: (1) remove a symbol (something deprecated got removed from the API), (2) add a symbol (by far the most common and totally safe), (3) replace a symbol (because foo.1:barfoo and foo.2:barfoo have two different implementations so they refer to two different functions)
2021-01-03T01:35:38Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that much could be done with diffs. That'd handle deduping symbol objects across package versions.
2021-01-03T01:35:51Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-03T01:36:03Z aeth: You'd basically just semvar it, with the no-version version being the latest.
2021-01-03T01:36:15Z aeth: *semver
2021-01-03T01:37:12Z aeth: To complicate things a bit, you'd want one of the symbol conflict resolution options to be "don't use the latest, use this specific version instead"
2021-01-03T01:37:42Z aeth: So if you USE my-package and it stops working because of a symbol conflict (and, yeah, USE is bad in general), then you can just use my-package.2 or whatever.
2021-01-03T01:38:25Z aeth: Someone can probably do 95% of this as a library.
2021-01-03T01:40:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: For most cases, loading the library then renaming the package Just Works
2021-01-03T01:40:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: As long as you don't have any code that relies on a package name.
2021-01-03T01:41:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I think using PLNs in code that ends up in Quicklisp is a Bad Idea
2021-01-03T01:41:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Personally, I tend to distinguish "code that I might eventually put into quicklisp" from "application code"
2021-01-03T01:42:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: And only use implementation-specific features in the latter sorts of projects
2021-01-03T01:43:17Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-03T01:55:23Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:04:11Z kam1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T02:05:31Z kam1 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:06:02Z kam1 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T02:09:08Z plisp joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:10:39Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:12:12Z plisp quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T02:12:31Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:12:42Z plisp joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:13:13Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T02:15:06Z aorst quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T02:15:21Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:18:36Z KREYREN quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T02:18:58Z KREYREN joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:21:50Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T02:22:30Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-03T02:22:51Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:28:10Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:29:20Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:33:37Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T02:33:55Z oni_on_ion is now known as oni-on-ion
2021-01-03T02:34:37Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-03T02:34:41Z bilal_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:34:51Z stzsch joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:34:57Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:34:58Z cpape` joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:35:04Z sm2n_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:35:04Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-01-03T02:35:06Z DGASAU`` joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:35:55Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-03T02:36:06Z grobe0ba_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:36:06Z docl_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:36:22Z Cthulhux` joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:36:29Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:36:49Z cg505- joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:37:27Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:37:46Z phoe6245 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:38:00Z justinmcp_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:38:28Z cgay_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:38:28Z SumoSud0- joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:38:36Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:38:41Z flazh1 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:38:47Z cross_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:38:49Z elflng_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:38:54Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T02:39:02Z froggey_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:39:10Z Mandus_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:39:19Z akoana_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:39:21Z matijja``` joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:40:24Z me_at_drewc_ca joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:40:37Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T02:41:03Z akoana_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T02:41:05Z ggoes_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:41:07Z leo_song_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:41:13Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:41:31Z akoana_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:41:35Z emacsoma1 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:42:33Z zmagii_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:42:51Z lonjil2 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:42:56Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T02:43:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z leo_song quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z Lord_of_Life quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z aartaka quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z emacsomancer quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z jibanes quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z sm2n quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z stzsch|2 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z DGASAU` quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z froggey quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z MichaelRaskin quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z ggoes quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z drewc quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z matijja quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z zmagii quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z cgay quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z Iolo quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z mathrick quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z Posterdati quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z lonjil quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:52Z SumoSud0 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z madnificent quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z vert2 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z flazh quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z akoana quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z Jesin quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z vhost- quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z aeth quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z bilal__ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z elflng quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z grobe0ba quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z xsperry quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z Mandus quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z phoe624 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z cg505 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z phantomics quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z cross quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z Cthulhux quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:53Z grumble quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:54Z justinmcp quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:54Z cpape quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:54Z docl quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-03T02:43:54Z grobe0ba_ is now known as grobe0ba
2021-01-03T02:43:57Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-03T02:44:08Z Iolo joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:44:10Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:44:19Z grumble joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:45:37Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:46:10Z akoana_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T02:46:14Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:46:45Z semz joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:47:09Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:47:12Z madnificent joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:48:25Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:48:40Z jjong joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:49:24Z vhost- joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:49:32Z vert2 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:49:36Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:51:04Z phantomics joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:51:24Z jibanes joined #lisp
2021-01-03T02:53:34Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T03:11:22Z flazh1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T03:13:03Z flazh1 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T03:20:03Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T03:20:11Z xsperry joined #lisp
2021-01-03T03:20:25Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-03T03:24:39Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-03T03:26:47Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T03:26:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T03:31:16Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-03T03:32:51Z charlie770 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T03:33:01Z charlie770 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T03:34:17Z troydm: what does PACKAGE-INFERRED-SYSTEM means in QuickLisp?
2021-01-03T03:35:07Z mfiano: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-package_002dinferred_002dsystem-extension.html
2021-01-03T03:35:54Z troydm: mfiano: thx
2021-01-03T03:39:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T03:41:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-03T03:42:59Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T03:43:32Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-03T04:02:41Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T04:04:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-03T04:05:25Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-03T04:06:36Z slyrus: morning beach!
2021-01-03T04:14:02Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp
2021-01-03T04:14:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T04:14:40Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T04:31:06Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T04:33:42Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-03T04:48:40Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-03T04:50:43Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T04:54:36Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-03T04:58:53Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-03T05:01:24Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-03T05:07:23Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie)
2021-01-03T05:07:33Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-03T05:07:51Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-03T05:09:09Z KREYREN quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T05:09:31Z KREYREN joined #lisp
2021-01-03T05:18:10Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-03T05:31:25Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T05:31:51Z knowayback quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-03T05:34:01Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-03T05:35:11Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-03T05:42:14Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-03T05:48:49Z xsperry quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T05:54:10Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-03T05:55:02Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-03T06:00:00Z Misha_B left #lisp
2021-01-03T06:06:26Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T06:13:09Z beach: frodef: See http://metamodular.com/SICL/environments.pdf for a description of first-class global environments.
2021-01-03T06:13:14Z troydm: okey this might sound like a dumb question but it seems that there are two local-projects directories when using roswell
2021-01-03T06:13:28Z troydm: am I missing something?
2021-01-03T06:14:50Z troydm: like how do I get a list of local-project directories?
2021-01-03T06:20:15Z troydm: it seems like top level local-projects directory is not part of ql:*local-project-directories*
2021-01-03T06:21:27Z gioyik_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-03T06:26:27Z troydm: or rather roswell adds ~/.roswell/local-projects to ASDF registry but not ql:*local-project-directories*
2021-01-03T06:26:28Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-03T06:27:17Z elflng_ is now known as elflng
2021-01-03T06:27:22Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-03T06:28:48Z troydm: also one the side note which is the best readline repl for sbcl?
2021-01-03T06:28:59Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-03T06:29:01Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T06:29:15Z troydm: I've installed linedit but not sure maybe there are better alternatives
2021-01-03T06:30:22Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-03T06:30:22Z moon-child: slime
2021-01-03T06:31:29Z moon-child: failing that, I usually use rlwrap, but linedit is probably at parity with it
2021-01-03T06:32:02Z troydm: moon-child: it has tab completion
2021-01-03T06:32:33Z troydm: moon-child: I do use slime, but sometimes I start repl just to quickly check something
2021-01-03T06:32:43Z troydm: old habit
2021-01-03T06:33:05Z beach: troydm: Why would you do that if you already have SLIME running?
2021-01-03T06:34:03Z troydm: beach: ohh, well I'm still learning to use SLIME
2021-01-03T06:34:35Z thmprover quit (Quit: Up, up, and away)
2021-01-03T06:39:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T06:41:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-03T06:48:53Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-03T06:52:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: troydm: I use linedit all the time
2021-01-03T06:52:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Better integrated with lisp, although it has a couple bugs
2021-01-03T06:53:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Tab complete for symbols and M-i for documenting the current symbol is pretty handy
2021-01-03T06:53:39Z troydm: yeah, I like it too
2021-01-03T06:54:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: As for "why": I occasionally use lisp on servers where I don't have emacs installed
2021-01-03T06:54:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, if I'm already doing stuff at the shell, sometimes it's easier just to use the REPL in the context of my current session rather than context-switching into emacs
2021-01-03T06:56:14Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T07:01:22Z no-defun-allowed: Although a touch convoluted, you could start SWANK on the server, then use SSH to port forward and M-x slime-connect to that.
2021-01-03T07:01:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Linedit is pretty good
2021-01-03T07:01:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: As is the sb-aclrepl contrib
2021-01-03T07:02:17Z Nilby fails
2021-01-03T07:02:18Z Nilby left #lisp
2021-01-03T07:08:19Z v0|d quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T07:10:14Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T07:14:28Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-03T07:41:03Z Nikotiini joined #lisp
2021-01-03T07:42:25Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T07:43:45Z gutter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T07:47:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-03T07:49:03Z chrisb joined #lisp
2021-01-03T07:49:22Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-03T07:54:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T07:56:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-03T07:56:43Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T07:57:38Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:00:13Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:07:50Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:09:49Z flazh1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T08:14:26Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T08:14:30Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-03T08:14:56Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:17:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-03T08:18:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:19:57Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:22:10Z flazh1 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:24:02Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-03T08:31:22Z flazh1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T08:36:00Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-03T08:37:03Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T08:38:28Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:40:17Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:44:18Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:44:57Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T08:52:17Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:56:50Z equwal joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:57:00Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:58:00Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T08:58:25Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-03T08:58:43Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-03T08:59:10Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T09:02:17Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-03T09:02:59Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-03T09:06:27Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-03T09:08:39Z jjong quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-03T09:08:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T09:11:40Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-03T09:15:36Z Ekho quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-03T09:22:31Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-03T09:24:57Z flazh1 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T09:26:44Z Posterdati joined #lisp
2021-01-03T09:31:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T09:31:55Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-03T09:33:07Z equwal quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-03T09:33:12Z Ekho joined #lisp
2021-01-03T09:40:08Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-03T09:45:40Z nostoi joined #lisp
2021-01-03T09:48:47Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T09:48:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T09:50:36Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T09:52:00Z birdwing quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T09:52:12Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-03T09:52:28Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:00:00Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-03T10:01:49Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:02:12Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T10:05:27Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:05:43Z sauvin: in sbcl, I'm suddenly getting hit with an "undefined variable" error or warning when I try (setq a '(1 2 3 4 5)). What could be wrong?
2021-01-03T10:05:50Z phoe: sauvin: SETQ
2021-01-03T10:05:59Z phoe: toplevel SETQ in Common Lisp is undefined behavior
2021-01-03T10:06:06Z phoe: and the examples in CLHS are, sadly, making heavy use of it
2021-01-03T10:06:25Z sauvin: Yeah. Doesn't happen in gcl, just sbcl.
2021-01-03T10:06:35Z phoe: define your variables before setting them - globals via DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER, locals via LET or LET* or the other utilities for binding
2021-01-03T10:06:48Z phoe: I can't recommeng GCL since it's been pretty much dead and non-conforming
2021-01-03T10:07:20Z phoe: s/toplevel SETQ/toplevel SETQ on undefined variables/
2021-01-03T10:07:23Z sauvin: Yeah, well, folks in this channel about 24 hours ago told me about that, which is why I'm asking. Worked in gcl, ain't working in sbcl, wtf!?
2021-01-03T10:09:09Z phoe: mostly because SBCL is becoming more and more strict as of late
2021-01-03T10:09:12Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T10:09:25Z phoe: as in, it sets off fireworks for more and more non-conforming code
2021-01-03T10:09:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T10:10:01Z phoe: it's a good thing on one hand, and on the other, it has caused a fair share of breakages in libraries that were working before but then SBCL found ANSI CL conformance bugs in them
2021-01-03T10:10:32Z sauvin: Oh, wonderful.
2021-01-03T10:10:36Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:10:46Z phoe: and then the breakages get fixed after the initial anguish
2021-01-03T10:10:50Z phoe: and we end up with better code overall.
2021-01-03T10:11:40Z sauvin: Well, see, this was one of the reasons the folks here gave yesterday for me to move to sbcl: more conformant to the standard.
2021-01-03T10:11:59Z phoe: and much more eager to warn the programmer
2021-01-03T10:12:00Z sauvin: Anyway, yeah, using let solved my problem.
2021-01-03T10:13:12Z phoe: the question with SETQ on symbols always is: where is this particular symbol defined to be a variable?
2021-01-03T10:13:18Z phoe: if it's defined nowhere, SBCL will point that out
2021-01-03T10:13:35Z froggey_ is now known as froggey
2021-01-03T10:13:36Z beach: sauvin: It's kind of the other way around.  It "works" in SBCL, since it signals a warning, and it does not "work" in GCL because it lets a detectable undefined situation pass silently.
2021-01-03T10:14:07Z phoe: beach: actually, it's undefined behavior, so an implementation is free *not* to warn
2021-01-03T10:14:23Z beach: Hence "works".
2021-01-03T10:14:47Z beach: ... and "kind of".
2021-01-03T10:14:56Z phoe: so both SBCL and GCL/ECL/CCL/ABCL behavior groups are acceptable
2021-01-03T10:15:05Z phoe: ;; which doesn't mean they are desirable
2021-01-03T10:15:16Z beach: For some value of "acceptable", sure.
2021-01-03T10:16:04Z sauvin: Any way to turn that particular warning off?
2021-01-03T10:16:21Z phoe: the easiest: don't use toplevel SETQ
2021-01-03T10:16:23Z beach: You absolutely don't want to do that.
2021-01-03T10:16:25Z moon-child: why not define the variable properly?  (defparameter a '(1 2 3 4 5))
2021-01-03T10:17:17Z beach: sauvin: You should not rely on undefined behavior.
2021-01-03T10:17:33Z sauvin: Because I don't understand it. I'm just now learning how to assign variables in lisp, and it's a lot more complex than in perl, and it's more complex than in the AutoLISP that I used to use heavily but haven't seen in twenty years.
2021-01-03T10:18:12Z no-defun-allowed: You are going to understand it even less, if you attempt to intentionally break it.
2021-01-03T10:18:30Z sauvin: So, anyway, let works at the top level. I'm a big fan of lexical variables anyway. I avoid globals wherever I can.
2021-01-03T10:18:41Z beach: sauvin: How is (setq <variable> <value-form>) more complex than <variable> = <value-form>?
2021-01-03T10:18:50Z sauvin: How am I intentionally breaking anything using let?
2021-01-03T10:19:02Z phoe: using let, you aren't
2021-01-03T10:19:09Z phoe: using toplevel setq, you might be
2021-01-03T10:19:29Z sauvin: beach: in perl, "my $thing = 'stuff'" works regardless of where it appears.
2021-01-03T10:19:39Z no-defun-allowed: You are not breaking anything with LET. You're also not really breaking things with SETQ on undefined variables on its own, but attempting to dispose of the warnings your implementation makes for using SETQ in that way is breaking it.
2021-01-03T10:19:44Z moon-child: sauvin: setq is analogous to assignment, not declaration
2021-01-03T10:19:44Z beach: sauvin: I am sorry to hear that.
2021-01-03T10:19:44Z phoe: yep, not in Lisp
2021-01-03T10:19:51Z sauvin: Hey: sbcl doesn't like top-level setq, I don't use it. Easy peasy.
2021-01-03T10:19:59Z no-defun-allowed: my $thing = ... would be like wrapping the rest of the body in (let ((thing ...)) ...)
2021-01-03T10:20:04Z moon-child: $thing = 'stuff'  ←→  setq.  my $thing = 'stuff' ←→ defparameter/let
2021-01-03T10:20:20Z phoe: declaring local variables in Lisp is done via LET and LET* and some other similar operators
2021-01-03T10:20:51Z beach: moon-child: Oh, good point.
2021-01-03T10:20:54Z sauvin: moon-child, a hint from an old perl guy: ALWAYS use strict.
2021-01-03T10:21:16Z no-defun-allowed: However, note that DEFVAR and DEFPARAMETER are always used to declare special variables, which are dynamically scoped. I think Perl is another one of the few languages with dynamically scoped variables.
2021-01-03T10:21:21Z sauvin: defparameter can be used anywhere?
2021-01-03T10:21:27Z phoe: sauvin: yes, but shouldn't
2021-01-03T10:21:44Z phoe: it would define global variables from inside a local context
2021-01-03T10:21:48Z no-defun-allowed: So they aren't exactly globals per se.
2021-01-03T10:22:03Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, DEFUN, DEFPARAMETER and DEFVAR usually don't do what you want them to do, if you put them inside a function body.
2021-01-03T10:22:08Z sauvin: perl DOES have dynamically scoped variables, but there are very few circumstances under which their use encouraged.
2021-01-03T10:22:21Z phoe: see, it's similar in Lisp
2021-01-03T10:22:37Z phoe: you usually don't want dynamic variables, unless you *do* want them
2021-01-03T10:22:49Z no-defun-allowed: That is not so far off in Lisp; you use lexically scoped variables by default, but dynamic scoping is useful for cross-cutting "customization" of things.
2021-01-03T10:22:53Z phoe: for true non-dynamic globals, there's https://github.com/lmj/global-vars
2021-01-03T10:23:21Z sauvin: Yes, and i perl, I'd have to have some pretty convincing reason to use 'local', which means 'dynamic'.
2021-01-03T10:24:39Z sauvin: I'll look at that later. For now, many years spent swearing at the machine (and destroying more than one keyboard in the process), I tend to disfavour global variables. I just wind up tripping over them.
2021-01-03T10:25:02Z no-defun-allowed: For example, you can re-bind *standard-output* to send printed text somewhere else (provided it is printed to *standard-output*).
2021-01-03T10:26:28Z sauvin: Had to do that already. *default-external-format* defaults to utf-8, but trying to read a couple of files I have caused sbcl to puke, so I had to change that variable to ISO-mumble.
2021-01-03T10:26:52Z phoe: sauvin: sure, then use LET and friends as much as possible
2021-01-03T10:27:10Z no-defun-allowed: But I use a fair few global variables in my work, mostly to put weak hash tables somewhere, so that I can de-duplicate objects I use.
2021-01-03T10:27:28Z phoe: and use dynamic variables either for passing context information along your call stack, and almost only for that.
2021-01-03T10:28:28Z sauvin: I tend to prefer passing parameters. Dynamic variables (in my other-language experience) are just another morass.
2021-01-03T10:28:43Z sauvin: Just like globals.
2021-01-03T10:29:05Z phoe: most of the time they are, but they also allow for nice functionalities
2021-01-03T10:29:35Z phoe: (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) ...) hijacks the output stream and returns everything that was printed as a string
2021-01-03T10:30:20Z sauvin: Is that something like $string = sprintf ( ... ) ?
2021-01-03T10:30:24Z phoe: (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) (prin1 x)) prints X with all symbols being fully qualified, so with all package prefixes
2021-01-03T10:30:31Z phoe: sauvin: not exactly
2021-01-03T10:30:37Z phoe: ... is allowed to be arbitrary code
2021-01-03T10:30:53Z phoe: it can contain functions which call functions which call functions which print to standard output
2021-01-03T10:31:16Z phoe: and, no, they aren't printing to standard output anymore; they're printing into the stream that collects stuff into a string
2021-01-03T10:31:30Z oni-on-ion: just symbols
2021-01-03T10:31:49Z sauvin: $string = sprintf ($fmt, $func1->($func2->($func3->($crap))));
2021-01-03T10:32:52Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T10:32:52Z sauvin: Not sure how much I'm looking forward to lisp's packages, modules and OO. :\
2021-01-03T10:32:55Z phoe: (defun foo () (princ :asdf)) (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (princ :qwer) (foo) (princ :zxcv))
2021-01-03T10:32:56Z no-defun-allowed: I am aware that Haskell (or GHC maybe, who can tell the difference) has dynamic binding, so they're not totally useless.
2021-01-03T10:33:00Z joshu joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:33:06Z phoe: ;; => "QWERASDFZXCV"
2021-01-03T10:33:15Z phoe: that's what it looks like in CL
2021-01-03T10:33:30Z phoe: the function FOO prints to standard output
2021-01-03T10:33:39Z no-defun-allowed: Packages and OOP in Lisp are pretty fun.
2021-01-03T10:33:41Z phoe: so we redirect the standard output elsewhere in code that calls FOO, and that works
2021-01-03T10:34:44Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T10:34:58Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:35:12Z jonatack quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T10:35:30Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:35:51Z no-defun-allowed: If you think you aren't going to have fun learning something, it is going to be hard to have fun learning it.
2021-01-03T10:38:15Z beach keeps his thoughts to himself. 
2021-01-03T10:39:26Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:39:34Z no-defun-allowed: At the very least, objects in Common Lisp are very different to that in other languages, such as Java and C++, and even different to that in the "real OOP" languages like Smalltalk and Self.
2021-01-03T10:40:01Z no-defun-allowed: So past struggles in those paradigms may or may not be representative of one's use of CLOS.
2021-01-03T10:43:16Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:47:11Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-03T10:48:39Z joshu quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T10:49:18Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:51:16Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T10:57:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T10:57:51Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:57:51Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T10:58:08Z ark quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-03T10:58:17Z ark joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:58:21Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T10:58:21Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T10:59:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:00:13Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T11:00:20Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:00:20Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:01:43Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:01:50Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:01:50Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:02:50Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:02:50Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:03:53Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:07:13Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-03T11:13:36Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T11:15:23Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack)
2021-01-03T11:15:31Z okflo joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:15:41Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:15:43Z chrisb left #lisp
2021-01-03T11:18:48Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-03T11:20:00Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:20:00Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:25:23Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend)
2021-01-03T11:26:41Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:27:20Z igemnace quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T11:34:09Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:34:09Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:35:23Z beach quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:36:09Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:36:09Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:39:44Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:40:00Z beach joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:41:42Z vaporatorius joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:41:42Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host)
2021-01-03T11:41:42Z vaporatorius joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:41:55Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:44:08Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:45:02Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:46:42Z dhil joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:46:43Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:46:58Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-03T11:48:10Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:48:11Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:50:48Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:51:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-03T11:51:10Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:51:10Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:52:11Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:52:23Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:54:02Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:54:13Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T11:54:29Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:55:05Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:58:10Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:58:10Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T11:58:58Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-03T11:59:54Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T12:00:08Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T12:00:08Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T12:00:34Z liberliver quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T12:02:09Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-03T12:11:07Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T12:12:42Z joshcom joined #lisp
2021-01-03T12:16:23Z flazh1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T12:22:55Z flazh1 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T12:34:17Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-03T12:41:32Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-03T12:46:46Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T12:55:48Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-03T12:55:59Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-03T12:56:13Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T13:08:18Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T13:10:52Z heisig: If I had a nickel for every bug I introduced because I closed over a LOOP variable, thinking it would create a fresh closure for each iteration, I'd have have two nickels.  Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
2021-01-03T13:12:43Z generationhex joined #lisp
2021-01-03T13:18:49Z surabax_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T13:21:43Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T13:26:29Z joshcom quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-03T13:26:32Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-03T13:28:36Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-03T13:29:30Z surabax_ is now known as surabax
2021-01-03T13:48:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-03T13:51:52Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-03T13:52:10Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T13:55:21Z mrios22 left #lisp
2021-01-03T13:56:33Z isBEKaml joined #lisp
2021-01-03T13:56:50Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T13:59:57Z Colleen quit (Quit: Colleen)
2021-01-03T14:00:44Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T14:13:14Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T14:14:26Z oxum quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-03T14:15:15Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-03T14:20:12Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T14:20:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T14:20:30Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T14:22:50Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T14:22:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T14:23:19Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-03T14:23:30Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T14:27:04Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T14:29:50Z xsperry joined #lisp
2021-01-03T14:30:04Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T14:30:44Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-03T14:37:22Z gareppa joined #lisp
2021-01-03T14:39:16Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T14:45:09Z failproofshark joined #lisp
2021-01-03T14:54:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T14:54:57Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-03T14:59:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T14:59:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T15:00:10Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-03T15:04:47Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-03T15:11:16Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-03T15:14:29Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-03T15:16:20Z generationhex quit
2021-01-03T15:19:37Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-03T15:27:10Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T15:28:28Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-03T15:34:58Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-03T15:40:14Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T15:47:34Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-03T15:54:53Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-03T15:55:00Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-03T15:55:43Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-03T15:56:41Z pfdietz: phoe: this is exercising the mutation tester, sanding off rough spots exposed by applying it to "real" code.
2021-01-03T15:56:50Z phoe: pfdietz: yes, I have guessed
2021-01-03T15:57:43Z phoe: thanks for the PR!
2021-01-03T15:58:25Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T15:58:36Z phoe: how are other projects faring in comparison?
2021-01-03T15:59:49Z pfdietz: Just starting this round.  split-sequence looks good, no real bugs found so far, just some cleanliness tweaking.
2021-01-03T16:00:06Z phoe: was the (unless (<= start end) ...) a bug though?
2021-01-03T16:00:23Z pfdietz: Well, ok, one bug.
2021-01-03T16:00:27Z phoe: yes
2021-01-03T16:00:34Z phoe: (split-sequence:split-sequence 0 (list 1 0 2 0 3 0 4) :start 2 :end 0) is capable of blowing the heap
2021-01-03T16:01:42Z pfdietz: I applied it to fset sometime last year and found a number of problems, even in code that had been covered.
2021-01-03T16:02:21Z KREYREN quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T16:02:21Z ech quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T16:02:22Z cantstanya quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T16:02:22Z madage quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T16:02:22Z gxt quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T16:02:22Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T16:02:51Z pfdietz: But, as I said, this is more for shaking down the tester.   I'm going to have a set of recommendations for testing framework writers too, to make their tests more useful here.
2021-01-03T16:03:09Z pfdietz: For example: an option to stop testing as soon as one failure is detected.
2021-01-03T16:04:19Z phoe: yes, this sounds very nice
2021-01-03T16:04:28Z phoe: so the issue can be fixed and then more fuzzing can happen
2021-01-03T16:04:37Z phoe: so unnecessary duplicates don't happen.
2021-01-03T16:04:42Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T16:05:01Z pfdietz: In this case, because once I kill a mutant I want to stop testing.   No sense killing it again and again.
2021-01-03T16:05:10Z phoe: yes
2021-01-03T16:05:55Z pfdietz: Also, I would like to be able to extract a subset of a test suite (say, just the tests that somewhere call function FOO) and just run those.  No sense running tests that don't touch a mutated function.
2021-01-03T16:06:22Z phoe: oh! can you do that automatically? tree-walking? code-walking?
2021-01-03T16:07:00Z pfdietz: It's easy to see which tests call FOO:  instrument FOO, run the test suite.  This assumes the tests have set some special variable that indicates which individual test is being run.
2021-01-03T16:07:32Z pfdietz: (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (instrument-it (symbol-function 'foo)))
2021-01-03T16:07:33Z phoe: I assume you also could try to call Dissect and figure that out from the call stack, somehow... but, yes
2021-01-03T16:07:52Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:08:04Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:08:17Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:08:22Z pfdietz: Not sure that would work on generic functions, though.  Maybe an around method, but what if one already exists.
2021-01-03T16:08:42Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:09:43Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:10:04Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T16:11:03Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:11:30Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:11:47Z phoe: why wouldn't it work?
2021-01-03T16:11:48Z _death: with such a who-calls database (kinda like screamer maintains) you could have relevant tests running automatically after redefining a function..
2021-01-03T16:12:12Z phoe: I assume you can always SETF FDEFINITION with some sorta funcallable instance that then calls the original FDEFINITION
2021-01-03T16:12:42Z phoe: or even with a closure that rebinds a variable and calls the closed-over function.
2021-01-03T16:13:32Z pfdietz: Suppose the code dynamically adds new methods?
2021-01-03T16:14:12Z pfdietz: No big deal though; in those cases just conservatively run all the tests.
2021-01-03T16:14:33Z phoe: oh, yes, I see
2021-01-03T16:16:02Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:16:14Z Krystof joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:18:05Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T16:21:08Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:29:34Z _death: sbcl has sb-introspect and others have their own interfaces (and then there's xref.lisp).. (swank:xref :callers "foo:bar") seems to work, but not a very convenient interface for CL programs
2021-01-03T16:29:46Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:30:43Z pfdietz: Anyway, what I was aiming for here was API in test frameworks to make this useful (running subsets of test, and knowing which test is running).
2021-01-03T16:31:52Z refpga quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T16:32:04Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:32:05Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T16:33:27Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:38:30Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:41:03Z Colleen quit (Quit: Colleen)
2021-01-03T16:41:43Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:41:43Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T16:45:56Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:45:56Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:47:25Z failproofshark quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-03T16:47:45Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-03T16:50:37Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T16:54:35Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6)
2021-01-03T17:01:14Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:01:35Z _death: with a little patching the slime xref browser now works reasonably on sbcl
2021-01-03T17:06:02Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T17:08:27Z vutral joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:14:29Z Colleen quit (Quit: Colleen)
2021-01-03T17:14:44Z Xach: oh lord, local-time is broken?
2021-01-03T17:15:03Z Xach: sbcl strikes again
2021-01-03T17:15:12Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-03T17:15:14Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:15:53Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:16:37Z Xach: i don't quite understand the location of the warning from http://report.quicklisp.org/2021-01-03/failure-report/local-time.html#local-time
2021-01-03T17:18:20Z Xach: ah, i see
2021-01-03T17:18:28Z Xach: https://github.com/dlowe-net/local-time/blob/master/src/local-time.lisp#L399 i think
2021-01-03T17:19:39Z _death: yeah.. looks like it tries to dolist on a vector
2021-01-03T17:23:24Z aeth: A fun error I've been getting is when SBCL 2.0.2 (in e.g. Gitlab CI) STYLE-WARNINGs that the implicit return value of NIL in a COND with no default clause is not of some numeric type that the rest of the code expects. But SBCL 2.0.8, which I actually use (and yes, I should upgrade), is a bit smarter and complains about deleting unreachable code in those unreachable, literally-impossible default branches.
2021-01-03T17:23:26Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:24:13Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:24:48Z aeth: I suppose I should have an EFOO and CFOO version (like ECASE and CCASE) to those macros that generate CONDs so that the default branch is an error instead, since if you make it an error, it won't complain... except about deleting unreachable code, which can be safely hidden in a "(LOCALLY (DECLARE #+SBCL" with the right declaration.
2021-01-03T17:25:04Z pfdietz: Turn the last clause (<condition> . <forms>) into (t (assert <condition>) . <forms>)?
2021-01-03T17:25:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T17:25:33Z Xach file bug
2021-01-03T17:26:24Z phoe: SBCL: the greatest bane of lisp programmers and maintainers since CMU CL
2021-01-03T17:26:33Z pfdietz: I plan to use these warnings in the mutation tester.  If I want to substitute Y for X, I can insert a (unless (eql x y) ...) and if it complains about unreachable code, I know that's an equivalent mutant.
2021-01-03T17:26:58Z phoe: if you enjoy lisp compilers that don't yell at you for things, you definitely shouldn't try sbcl
2021-01-03T17:27:13Z Nilby: Is there way to get sldb to automatically keep picking a restart?
2021-01-03T17:27:40Z phoe: automatically? like, in a loop?
2021-01-03T17:28:07Z Nilby: Yes, like next time it gets the same error.
2021-01-03T17:28:15Z phoe: I'd do that with handler-bind over invoke-restart around the signaling form in the REPL
2021-01-03T17:28:25Z phoe: but I don't know a SLDB solution, it any
2021-01-03T17:28:51Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-03T17:30:46Z Nilby: Hmmm. I was hoping to do in without forethought. Like an easy way to blast through encoding errors.
2021-01-03T17:31:33Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:32:11Z phoe: handler-bind over invoke-restart sounds the best for me
2021-01-03T17:34:01Z SpaceIgor2075: I finished reading A Complete Idiot's Guide to Common Lisp Packages and I feel like an incomplete idiot
2021-01-03T17:34:13Z Nilby: phoe: Thanks.
2021-01-03T17:36:07Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:37:28Z SpaceIgor2075: So, to make a new package, in newpackage.lisp I should write something like: (defpackage newpackage :export '("new-stuff")) (in-package newpackage) (defun newstuff () "New Stuff!!")
2021-01-03T17:37:37Z SpaceIgor2075: Did I get it right?
2021-01-03T17:37:58Z jurov joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:41:12Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-03T17:42:29Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:42:42Z izh_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:44:12Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:54:07Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:54:11Z notzmv quit (Read error: No route to host)
2021-01-03T17:55:34Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-03T17:56:55Z Nilby: SpaceIgor2075: pretty close, but I would say: (defpackage :newpackage (:use :cl) (:export #:new-stuff)) (in-package :newpackage)
2021-01-03T18:05:30Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: DEFPACKAGE options are not quoted, and remember that strings respect case whereas symbols, by default, don't
2021-01-03T18:07:23Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-03T18:12:34Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T18:13:30Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-03T18:16:37Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-03T18:21:46Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T18:22:01Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: 1. why is :cl used instead of 'cl? 2. (:export #:new-stuff) has a # because new-stuff is a function, am i right?
2021-01-03T18:22:23Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: actually the answer to both questions is one and the same
2021-01-03T18:22:34Z phoe: because of how Lisp works, the reader works before code is compiled
2021-01-03T18:22:56Z phoe: and writing FOO causes the reader to intern the symbol named "FOO" in the current package
2021-01-03T18:23:33Z phoe: when you evaluate a DEFPACKAGE, this can happen in literally any package, because usually only after a package is defined you use IN-PACKAGE to switch into it
2021-01-03T18:23:53Z phoe: so a DEFPACKAGE form that has unqualified symbols like FOO in it can intern unnecessary symbols into other packages.
2021-01-03T18:24:06Z phoe: so there are three ways to fix this issue
2021-01-03T18:24:14Z phoe: 1) :foo 2) #:foo 3) "FOO"
2021-01-03T18:24:26Z phoe: option 1) is to use keywords, which interns symbols into the KEYWORD package
2021-01-03T18:24:51Z phoe: which kiiinda sidesteps the problem but not really, because now symbols are interned into the KEYWORD package, which can produce unnecessary keywords
2021-01-03T18:25:11Z bluejaypop joined #lisp
2021-01-03T18:25:15Z phoe: option 3) is to use strings, which is permissible, but has issues if someone uses a different readtable case than the standard, upcasing one
2021-01-03T18:25:34Z phoe: option 2) is to use packageless symbols, which are interned nowhere
2021-01-03T18:26:01Z phoe: and I personally suggest to use #:foo for everything in DEFPACKAGE, including imports and uses and exports and package-local nicknames
2021-01-03T18:26:28Z phoe: so (defpackage #:newpackage (:use #:cl) (:export #:new-stuff)) (in-package #:newpackage)
2021-01-03T18:28:58Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: thanks. So, #:stuff is equivalent to (make-symbol "STUFF")?
2021-01-03T18:29:07Z Nilby: phoe is such a great explainer, maybe should write a book. ;-)
2021-01-03T18:29:36Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: almost equivalent
2021-01-03T18:29:43Z phoe: it's equivalent to #.(make-symbol "STUFF")
2021-01-03T18:29:47Z phoe: the #. denotes that it's done at read-time
2021-01-03T18:29:50Z phoe: Nilby: :(
2021-01-03T18:29:54Z phoe: again? come on
2021-01-03T18:30:18Z sauvin: What book did you write?
2021-01-03T18:30:21Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: What's the name of the book?
2021-01-03T18:30:23Z _death: An Incomplete Idiot's Guide To CL Packages
2021-01-03T18:30:34Z phoe: _death: I burst into laughter, thank you
2021-01-03T18:30:37Z phoe: minion: tell sauvin about tclcs
2021-01-03T18:30:40Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``tclcs''.
2021-01-03T18:30:48Z phoe: >:(
2021-01-03T18:30:51Z sauvin: tcl!?
2021-01-03T18:30:54Z sauvin runs away
2021-01-03T18:31:16Z SpaceIgor2075: tclhs?
2021-01-03T18:31:31Z phoe: minion: tell sauvin about tclcs
2021-01-03T18:31:31Z minion: sauvin: tclcs: The Common Lisp Condition System, https://www.apress.com/us/book/9781484261330
2021-01-03T18:31:33Z phoe: there
2021-01-03T18:33:34Z sauvin: Bookmarked. When I understand lisp a little better, I gonna grab that book.
2021-01-03T18:33:42Z phoe: thanks, hope that it serves you well
2021-01-03T18:34:48Z phoe: it seems that I've achieved two things with this book, one intended, one accidental
2021-01-03T18:35:12Z SpaceIgor2075: CL seems to be quite deep. Are there any books dedicated to other programming languages' condition systems?
2021-01-03T18:35:12Z phoe: the intended one was to write about the ideas, implementation, and use cases of the condition system
2021-01-03T18:35:42Z SpaceIgor2075: Or is it specific to CL that you can write a whole book on it's condition system?
2021-01-03T18:35:59Z phoe: the accidental one: I seem to have described how to implement a non-trivial piece of Common Lisp code, bit by bit, while testing it heavily in the REPL
2021-01-03T18:36:10Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: other languages don't have condition systems in general
2021-01-03T18:36:18Z phoe: their exception handling routines are usually simpler, much simpler
2021-01-03T18:36:32Z phoe: one of my online lisp talks describes this a little
2021-01-03T18:36:57Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4P9lFK79hQ the first part
2021-01-03T18:37:53Z Nilby: If we just copy the irc logs and throw a few headings on, i feel like we'd have like 2 more phoe books pretty quick.
2021-01-03T18:38:20Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-03T18:38:32Z sauvin: What, in a nutshell, _is_ the condition system?
2021-01-03T18:38:44Z SpaceIgor2075: Nilby: phoe may have a blog
2021-01-03T18:39:43Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T18:39:59Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-03T18:41:04Z phoe: sauvin: a system of handling special situations happening in code, including errors
2021-01-03T18:41:11Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: I do have a blog but it's not really populated
2021-01-03T18:41:29Z phoe: that idea of scraping IRC logs does sound kinda nice, when I think about it...
2021-01-03T18:42:23Z sauvin: I should imagine that if the S/N ratio here is high enough, browsing the logs would be a great tool for brainstorming all KINDS of random stuff.
2021-01-03T18:42:48Z phoe: #lisp is moderated rather heavily when it comes to off-topic discussion, so S/N should be high in general
2021-01-03T18:49:18Z bilal_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-03T18:52:17Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T18:53:00Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T18:53:39Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-03T18:55:05Z Colleen quit (Quit: Colleen)
2021-01-03T18:57:27Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T18:58:55Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:00:27Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:00:31Z SpaceIgor2075: Where can i learn about projects and asdf? When I create a project with quickproject i get a dir with project.asd project.lisp package.lisp; i want to know what's going on
2021-01-03T19:01:25Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T19:07:45Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:09:47Z _death: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/
2021-01-03T19:18:01Z andreyorst quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T19:24:52Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T19:26:17Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-03T19:26:59Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:29:48Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-03T19:30:41Z SpaceIgor2075: Is CLtL2 worth reading for a newbie who read LoL?
2021-01-03T19:31:21Z lalilulelo joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:31:30Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:36:35Z _death: yes
2021-01-03T19:36:51Z phoe: LoL, you mean Land of Lisp?
2021-01-03T19:36:54Z _death: just keep in mind that there are a few changes in the standard
2021-01-03T19:37:00Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-03T19:37:08Z phoe: asking because Let over Lambda is not really for newbies, if that's what you read
2021-01-03T19:37:21Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-03T19:37:37Z vutral quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-03T19:38:08Z SpaceIgor2075: Land of Lisp, but i was planning to read Let over Lambda
2021-01-03T19:38:27Z SpaceIgor2075: (Lisp needs more LoLbooks)
2021-01-03T19:39:43Z SpaceIgor2075: _death: really, they changed the standsrd? I thought CL didn't change for decades
2021-01-03T19:39:56Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:40:23Z _death: SpaceIgor2075: CLtL2 was written as the language was standardized
2021-01-03T19:40:47Z _death: SpaceIgor2075: in fact for a newbie, it may be better to first read a book like Practical Common Lisp first
2021-01-03T19:40:51Z phoe: importantly, CLtL2 was written before ANSI CL was finalized
2021-01-03T19:42:05Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T19:42:26Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: Oh, now i get it. Is CLtL2 to ANSI CL like K&R C to ANSI C?
2021-01-03T19:44:30Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:46:50Z _death: kind of, except K&R was a short guide and CLtL2 is more a sprawling creature that's between spec and guide
2021-01-03T19:47:52Z _death: a manual..
2021-01-03T19:49:30Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:49:42Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:49:50Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-03T19:50:14Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:50:15Z junkicide joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:50:46Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T19:51:00Z ralt: I really wish lisp implementations didn't depend so much on glibc
2021-01-03T19:52:34Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T19:53:03Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:53:06Z luis joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:54:33Z heisig: ralt: The people in #sicl are working on it :)
2021-01-03T19:56:12Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-03T19:58:57Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-03T20:02:16Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-03T20:06:06Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T20:10:01Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-03T20:11:20Z VincentVega: Guys, is the funcall version slower here, and if yes is there a way not to repeat arg, while retaining performance?
2021-01-03T20:11:21Z VincentVega: (if b (f1 arg) (f2 arg))
2021-01-03T20:11:26Z VincentVega: (funcall (if b 'f1 'f2) arg)
2021-01-03T20:11:48Z phoe: the two should be equivalent performancewise on a smart enough compiler
2021-01-03T20:11:56Z phoe: try comparing disassemblies
2021-01-03T20:12:18Z VincentVega: i see, ok!
2021-01-03T20:14:11Z bluejaypop left #lisp
2021-01-03T20:23:04Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-03T20:24:59Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-03T20:25:18Z mankaev quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-03T20:25:26Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-03T20:25:54Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T20:29:33Z phoe: does anyone know of an automated test suite for Flavors?
2021-01-03T20:30:07Z Colleen quit (Quit: Colleen)
2021-01-03T20:30:51Z mankaev_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-03T20:31:16Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-03T20:31:51Z adam4567 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T20:37:52Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-03T20:37:58Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-03T20:38:21Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-03T20:38:35Z junkicide quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-03T20:40:14Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-03T20:42:49Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T20:46:50Z sloanr joined #lisp
2021-01-03T20:50:26Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T20:51:09Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-03T20:54:56Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T20:58:21Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T20:59:47Z jw4 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:00:30Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:02:14Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: if you like linedit, would this be interesting for you: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/linedit-1.ogv
2021-01-03T21:05:15Z phoe: is this another show of eclector wizardry that you are performing in front of us now?
2021-01-03T21:05:31Z phoe: I'm asking because I'm amazed
2021-01-03T21:06:26Z cg505- quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-03T21:08:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T21:09:18Z cg505 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:09:41Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:11:36Z TMA joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:13:43Z scymtym: phoe: yes, eclector-based highlighting. more or less the same thing that did the highlighting in the eclector presentation
2021-01-03T21:14:05Z phoe: scymtym: :D
2021-01-03T21:16:06Z Colleen quit (Quit: Colleen)
2021-01-03T21:17:46Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-03T21:19:05Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:26:21Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-03T21:27:08Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:27:38Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T21:31:23Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-03T21:35:22Z luis joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:36:02Z markasoftware: Is there any sort of library with more powerful generic functions? I want to be able to specialize on arbitrary conditions and on the current state of global variables
2021-01-03T21:36:20Z phoe: conditions, what do you mean?
2021-01-03T21:36:39Z phoe: you mean condition types? you already can do that, all CL implementations implement condition types as condition classes
2021-01-03T21:36:43Z markasoftware: I mean it in the true or false sense lol
2021-01-03T21:36:56Z phoe: oh; you can kinda already do that
2021-01-03T21:37:01Z markasoftware: Eg, use this method if the argument is an odd numbet
2021-01-03T21:37:21Z phoe: you can have a method specialized on NULL if you want to match NIL, and an unspecialized method for all other cases
2021-01-03T21:37:24Z no-defun-allowed: T for true objects, NULL for false (NIL), but that won't do predicate dispatch.
2021-01-03T21:37:29Z phoe: oh, like that... hmmm
2021-01-03T21:38:00Z no-defun-allowed: I think there were a few papers on "generalisers" and predicate dispatch in CLOS and/or MOP.
2021-01-03T21:41:51Z _death: there are libraries like contextl, filtered-functions, specializable, etc.
2021-01-03T21:48:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T21:48:50Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:48:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T21:49:13Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T21:49:16Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:49:39Z GuerrillaMonkey joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:51:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T21:51:26Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:51:41Z ym quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T21:52:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T21:52:34Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T21:52:58Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:55:37Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-03T21:57:02Z Krystof: https://arxiv.org/abs/1403.2765 e.g.
2021-01-03T21:57:23Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T22:01:25Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T22:03:09Z markasoftware: Very interesting. I'm sure I can take some combination of these ideas to do what I want. Thanks everyone!
2021-01-03T22:03:28Z vaporatorius joined #lisp
2021-01-03T22:03:29Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host)
2021-01-03T22:03:29Z vaporatorius joined #lisp
2021-01-03T22:06:16Z aeth: Well, this is a first. I had to introduce an ECASE= variation of the CASE= macro so I could satisfy both old SBCL (like in Gitlab CI) and new SBCL (like on my local machine). https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/-/commit/12bb5cc21a185988b72f7cc4da118f4dd992a286
2021-01-03T22:06:23Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-03T22:06:44Z aeth: The default, impossible path is an error in old SBCLs (no warning that it's possibly a NIL) and deleted as unreachable code (but without a compiler note) in new SBCLs.
2021-01-03T22:06:51Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T22:07:07Z aeth: I've had to work around different implementations before, but working around different actively-used SBCLs is... something else.
2021-01-03T22:08:17Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T22:08:17Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T22:08:30Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-03T22:09:24Z Krystof: aeth: we may not move fast, but we break things
2021-01-03T22:09:47Z Krystof: this is probably because case on small integer keys got an optimization a while back to convert to jump tables
2021-01-03T22:10:11Z Krystof: I'm not entirely surprised that this causes a change in the diagnostics emitted
2021-01-03T22:10:22Z aeth: Krystof: well, not case, but COND
2021-01-03T22:10:29Z mfiano: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1909883
2021-01-03T22:10:46Z Krystof: if it's a cond that looks like the expansion of case, the same applies
2021-01-03T22:10:47Z mfiano: posted yesterday about DCE without notes, and also DCE without retval checking
2021-01-03T22:10:54Z aeth: And, yes, what happened is that it got smarter so that it was able to delete impossible branches
2021-01-03T22:11:13Z aeth: Perhaps because of that optimization, yes
2021-01-03T22:22:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-03T22:22:15Z rtoy joined #lisp
2021-01-03T22:22:49Z Oddity- joined #lisp
2021-01-03T22:23:01Z minion joined #lisp
2021-01-03T22:23:39Z specbot joined #lisp
2021-01-03T22:23:57Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-03T22:26:01Z thmprover joined #lisp
2021-01-03T22:27:24Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-03T22:37:35Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-03T22:39:35Z okflo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T22:49:18Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T22:49:44Z luis joined #lisp
2021-01-03T22:55:12Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-03T22:57:30Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-03T23:00:44Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-03T23:02:21Z asarch: One very stupid question: once you have defined your new class *without* any accessor at all, e.g.: (defclass foo () ((bar :initform nil :initarg :bar))), can you later with inheritance define an accessor? In this case, an accessor for bar: (defclass spam (foo) ...)?
2021-01-03T23:02:25Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-03T23:02:47Z asarch: *once you have defined your class with a slot...
2021-01-03T23:03:23Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-03T23:03:40Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, but it's probably wiser to start with defining an accessor.
2021-01-03T23:03:43Z phoe: asarch: yes, you need to duplicate the slot form and add an accessor there
2021-01-03T23:03:58Z phoe: this accessor won't work for the superclass if you do it this way.
2021-01-03T23:04:08Z asarch: Or you have to (defgeneric bar ((spam))), (defmethod (setf bar) ((instance spam))), (defmethod bar ((instance spam)) ...)?
2021-01-03T23:04:33Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-03T23:04:33Z phoe: not needed - but, again, this way is not really advised unless you have some use case for that
2021-01-03T23:04:44Z phoe: also you can't specialize in defgeneric
2021-01-03T23:04:48Z phoe: so, no double parens around spam
2021-01-03T23:05:50Z asarch: But, (defmethod (setf bar) ((instance spam) value) (setf (slot-value 'bar) value)), right?
2021-01-03T23:05:55Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-03T23:06:00Z phoe: yes
2021-01-03T23:06:06Z asarch: I mean, that was the "short" version
2021-01-03T23:06:29Z _death: asarch: the value comes first
2021-01-03T23:06:45Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-03T23:07:04Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T23:07:06Z phoe: _death: oh right, good catch
2021-01-03T23:07:18Z asarch: Yeah, sorry, my mistake
2021-01-03T23:07:40Z VincentVega quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T23:08:37Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-03T23:08:51Z asarch: So, 1) redefining the slot in the inherited class or 2) (defgeneric ...) and then (defmethod ...), right?
2021-01-03T23:10:06Z phoe: yes, but this looks weird to me; why would you only define an accessor on a subclass?
2021-01-03T23:10:25Z asarch: Do you know the GTK+ widget library?
2021-01-03T23:10:32Z phoe: yes, I do
2021-01-03T23:10:49Z phoe: I mean, I have heard of it, and used it in multiple applications, but not as a programmer
2021-01-03T23:11:51Z asarch: Well, in the Glade template you have a GtkTextView and to set the text you would need to:
2021-01-03T23:12:01Z asarch: (defmethod content ((instance editor))
2021-01-03T23:12:11Z asarch: (let ((buffer (gtk-text-view-get-buffer (slot-value instance 'content))
2021-01-03T23:12:26Z asarch: start-iter end-iter)
2021-01-03T23:12:37Z asarch: (setf start-iter (gtk-text-buffer-get-start-iter buffer))
2021-01-03T23:12:38Z phoe: asarch: mind using a pastebin?
2021-01-03T23:12:41Z asarch: And so one
2021-01-03T23:12:47Z asarch: *so on
2021-01-03T23:12:48Z asarch: Sorry
2021-01-03T23:13:23Z asarch: If I would have content as slot value I couldn't do later: (setf (content instance) "blaaa")
2021-01-03T23:13:45Z asarch: I mean, as an accessor
2021-01-03T23:13:52Z phoe: the editor does not have an accessor for its content slot?
2021-01-03T23:14:06Z asarch: However, in order to abstract some operations, in the super class I just need it
2021-01-03T23:14:11Z asarch: Yeah
2021-01-03T23:14:24Z phoe: why?
2021-01-03T23:14:31Z asarch: ...without any accessor at all
2021-01-03T23:14:41Z asarch: Well, that was the solution I found :'-(
2021-01-03T23:14:59Z phoe: which library for accessing GTK are you using?
2021-01-03T23:15:10Z asarch: For every widget in the dialog in the Glade template, there is a slot value in the class that wraps its operation
2021-01-03T23:15:26Z asarch: cl-cffi-gtk
2021-01-03T23:15:46Z phoe: so this library only exposes slots as its standard interface, and does not provide accessors?
2021-01-03T23:16:39Z asarch: This library only provides C "primitives" functions like (setf (gtk-dialog-title my-dialog) "Hello, folks!")
2021-01-03T23:18:21Z asarch: So, if in the dialog there is a widget a la "Name: [_____________]" in the class that wraps it I could have a slot (name :initarg :name :initform nil) and then later I could set its initial handler with (setf (slot-value 'dialog name) (gtk-builder-get-object builder "name"))
2021-01-03T23:18:45Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-03T23:19:33Z asarch: So later with (defgeneric ...) and (defmethod ...) I could use it, e.g., to store its value in the model of the application: (add-data model (name dialog)) by doing the GTK+ primitives operations to extract the data from the widget
2021-01-03T23:20:23Z phoe: yes, I see
2021-01-03T23:20:44Z phoe: if it only exposes slots, I assume you could then depend on this behavior - and define your own generic function on the superclass
2021-01-03T23:20:53Z asarch: So I could write an "abstract" base class for this dialog to re-use it in later applications
2021-01-03T23:21:13Z phoe: (defmethod my-package:my-wrapper ((editor gtk:editor)) (slot-value editor 'gtk:contents))
2021-01-03T23:21:16Z phoe: something like that
2021-01-03T23:21:18Z phoe: and then use your GF
2021-01-03T23:21:33Z phoe: this isn't C++, you can define new generic functions or methods on already existing classes
2021-01-03T23:21:55Z asarch: I see
2021-01-03T23:22:54Z asarch: Is there a book for pattern solutions in Common Lisp?
2021-01-03T23:23:09Z phoe: probably Common Lisp Recipes, maybe
2021-01-03T23:23:21Z phoe: it's less about patterns and more about tips and tricks though
2021-01-03T23:23:59Z fixing_auth_hold joined #lisp
2021-01-03T23:24:16Z asarch: CLOS is wonderful! It takes you one step far and beyond the rest
2021-01-03T23:27:26Z asarch: How could you know the statistics of SBCL REPL (memory available, uptime, etc)?
2021-01-03T23:27:47Z lalilulelo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T23:27:58Z phoe: memory: CL:ROOM
2021-01-03T23:28:11Z phoe: uptime: query the OS possibly, or get-internal-run-time
2021-01-03T23:30:04Z asarch: Thank you!
2021-01-03T23:32:09Z asarch: I miss the book of Pattern Designs for Smalltalk... :'-(
2021-01-03T23:33:01Z no-defun-allowed: Design patterns are mostly unnecessary in Common Lisp.
2021-01-03T23:33:50Z no-defun-allowed: Norving claims 16 of 23 patterns from the book are much simpler in Common Lisp or Dylan <https://norvig.com/design-patterns/design-patterns.pdf>
2021-01-03T23:35:56Z asarch: What would be the best solution for that in Common Lisp? Macros?
2021-01-03T23:36:03Z phoe: not always
2021-01-03T23:36:09Z phoe: some of them are simply built into the language
2021-01-03T23:36:21Z phoe: like the visitor pattern versus :before/:after/:around methods
2021-01-03T23:36:47Z no-defun-allowed: The presentation describes a few replacements.
2021-01-03T23:37:24Z scymtym: also, when people say "design patterns", they often mean design patterns in the context of object oriented design which has assigning responsibilities in the form of methods to classes at its cores. since common lisp classes don't have any associated behavior, the approach does not translate very well
2021-01-03T23:37:34Z phoe: ^
2021-01-03T23:37:35Z no-defun-allowed: Slide 10 tells us gains are achieved mostly with first-class types, then first-class functions, then macros, then method combination, multiple dispatch and modules.
2021-01-03T23:38:07Z asarch: However, Common Lisp actually does everything (almost) with macros, doesn't it? Even (defclass ...) is a macross, isn't it? (accordingly with The Art of the Meta-Object Protocol book)
2021-01-03T23:38:14Z phoe: no
2021-01-03T23:38:31Z asarch: No?
2021-01-03T23:38:32Z phoe: DEFCLASS is a macro, but you can equivalently call ENSURE-CLASS which is not a macro
2021-01-03T23:38:34Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe, but most of the patterns can be solved with already existing syntax and forms.
2021-01-03T23:38:56Z phoe: it's a function! and actually DEFCLASS, if you read the MOP, should expand into a call to ENSURE-CLASS
2021-01-03T23:39:20Z phoe: the macro is just for nicer syntax and some compile-time trickery and compile-time validation.
2021-01-03T23:39:22Z no-defun-allowed: Specifically, using first-class types and functions, and method combination and multiple dispatch, which are a property of generic functions.
2021-01-03T23:40:15Z scymtym: special variables also solve some of the problems of parametrizing behavior or "injecting dependencies"
2021-01-03T23:41:45Z asarch: Is a meta-object protocol the same as a pattern design?
2021-01-03T23:41:49Z phoe: oh yes, java's famous Context and Dependency Injection (CDI), also known in lisp as dynamic variables
2021-01-03T23:41:57Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-03T23:42:01Z phoe: asarch: nope, MOP describes how CLOS is implemented and works under the hood
2021-01-03T23:42:40Z asarch: However, you could also have your own MOP just like Perl via Moose has it, right?
2021-01-03T23:42:59Z phoe: I have no idea what Moose is or how it does things
2021-01-03T23:43:01Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-03T23:43:22Z no-defun-allowed: Moose is built on Class::MOP, which is already in Perl.
2021-01-03T23:44:52Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-03T23:44:55Z asarch: That is not a "pattern design", right?
2021-01-03T23:45:03Z phoe: not really
2021-01-03T23:45:13Z _death: you could describe common solutions to problems as patterns the way the gang of four book describes them (problem statement, forces or constraints, implementation issues, etc.)
2021-01-03T23:45:15Z phoe: metaobject protocols are about tweaking the object systems
2021-01-03T23:45:21Z phoe: patterns are... what _death said
2021-01-03T23:46:16Z no-defun-allowed: I use the metaobject protocol to attach additional information to classes and instances, to change how instances are allocated, and things like that. Design patterns are what you do with instances.
2021-01-03T23:47:18Z asarch: I see
2021-01-03T23:47:26Z mfiano: design patterns are purported master programming advice passed on to unsuspecting novices in languages without macros
2021-01-03T23:47:39Z asarch: One is consequence of another
2021-01-03T23:48:39Z no-defun-allowed: But it's not only macros. And all of them could be done without a meta-object protocol.
2021-01-03T23:49:23Z scymtym: implementing a WITH-FOO macro as a function CALL-WITH-FOO and a minimal expander (with-foo (…) BODY) → (call-with-foo (lambda (…) BODY)) could be a proper common lisp pattern in the sense _death mentioned. the problem is too avoid code bloat and allow some redefinition of the macro's behavior without recompiling all uses
2021-01-03T23:49:37Z _death: the AMOP book says it presents a particular MOP (for CLOS), but that the idea could be implemented for other (possibly non-Lisp) object systems.. so it's possible to imagine a Metaobject Protocol language design pattern
2021-01-03T23:51:39Z asarch: One step further and beyond...
2021-01-03T23:51:45Z scymtym: regarding AMOP, ENSURE-THING-USING-THING could be considered a design pattern for creating and updating bindings in an environment
2021-01-03T23:51:46Z _death: then there are obvious architectural patterns like (rule) Production system or Blackboard system..
2021-01-03T23:53:03Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-03T23:53:32Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-03T23:56:23Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-03T23:59:24Z sloanr` joined #lisp
2021-01-03T23:59:26Z _death: I'm also reminded of https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/ss-revisited.txt
2021-01-04T00:02:52Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-04T00:02:59Z sloanr quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-04T00:03:11Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-04T00:08:02Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T00:09:57Z GuerrillaMonkey quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-04T00:17:37Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T00:18:33Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T00:27:09Z sloanr`` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T00:28:33Z abhixec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T00:30:40Z sloanr` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T00:30:43Z vaporatorius joined #lisp
2021-01-04T00:31:04Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-04T00:33:49Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T00:37:49Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-04T00:38:51Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-04T00:43:38Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-04T00:44:56Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-04T00:55:11Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-04T00:57:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tend to think of DI more as "passing arguments to functions" than "dynamic variables"
2021-01-04T00:57:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Spring's XML stuff or Guice might be more like dynamic variables, but those are both abominations
2021-01-04T00:59:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: One way to do DI in lisp is "defun over lambda" (defun (dep1 dep2) (lambda (&rest other-args) ...))
2021-01-04T01:00:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: ... (defun foo ...)
2021-01-04T01:02:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: scymtym: that video is cool; my only objection is there's no code for me to try out...
2021-01-04T01:03:53Z sloanr``` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:03:56Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: i can try to publish an initial version tomorrow. i just didn't want to put too much effort into a thing that i wouldn't use myself
2021-01-04T01:05:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: scymtym: yeah, makes sense, I have a "lisp-sandbox" repository on github for this sort of demo
2021-01-04T01:06:25Z scymtym: i will probably just push one eclector branch and one linedit branch
2021-01-04T01:06:37Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:06:52Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-04T01:07:22Z scymtym: the highlighter is currently an eclector example that got a bit out of hand
2021-01-04T01:07:30Z sloanr`` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-04T01:09:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: One thing that would be useful with eclector is a more intelligent way to diff CL code
2021-01-04T01:10:47Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:11:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: git supports custom diff tools, and a syntax-aware diff for CL would be really helpful
2021-01-04T01:12:02Z scymtym: i believe pfdietz and colleagues have done that
2021-01-04T01:12:19Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:12:35Z shwouchk joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:13:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting, I've looked for this every couple months and never run across an implementation that would work.
2021-01-04T01:14:55Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-04T01:16:40Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T01:16:58Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T01:18:21Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:19:29Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:21:38Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T01:26:27Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:26:58Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-04T01:27:22Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:28:23Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-04T01:29:20Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:33:06Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:33:07Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:33:48Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T01:36:31Z Colleen quit (Quit: Colleen)
2021-01-04T01:37:40Z mfiano: Xach: did you see my message from yesterday?
2021-01-04T01:37:57Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:41:45Z Xach: mfiano: i'm not sure
2021-01-04T01:42:30Z mfiano: Xach: I was asking about your reecent octree usage.
2021-01-04T01:42:37Z Xach: mfiano: i did not see it
2021-01-04T01:42:59Z Xach: What would you like to know?
2021-01-04T01:43:28Z mfiano: I wanted to know if you used an existing library, or wrote an implementation yourself. I've spent the last 3 days writing a high performance octree for gamedev stuff, but there are a lot of corner cases my algorithm books don't cover, and invariants aren't holding :(
2021-01-04T01:44:15Z Xach: mfiano: ah. i wrote an implementation myself. i put the code on github. it is simplistic. i linked to the reference i followed (original was in javascript). i use it only for quantizing so its suitability for other uses might not be great.
2021-01-04T01:44:34Z Xach: https://github.com/xach/octree/blob/master/octree.lisp
2021-01-04T01:44:40Z mfiano: Thanks, I'll have a look
2021-01-04T01:45:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I like using keywords for package and systemn names, so I get autocomplete for ql:quickload and in-package :)
2021-01-04T01:45:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I probably should figure out how to make slime-company special-case these forms
2021-01-04T01:48:25Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: hmmm, I understand the idea
2021-01-04T01:49:08Z abhixec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T01:49:49Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-04T01:52:58Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T01:54:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are there any libraries for mutation testing?
2021-01-04T01:55:34Z asarch quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T01:55:43Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-04T01:55:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have a library I'm working on where there are several "obvious" ways to generate new test cases from a passing test, and I'd like to generate three or four random assertions for each assertion I write
2021-01-04T01:58:11Z mfiano: proptesting?
2021-01-04T01:59:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not exactly
2021-01-04T01:59:32Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-04T02:00:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, if I have an assertion (is (= a (func b))), automatically rewriting it to an equivalent one like (is (= a (func2 (inv-func2 (func b)))))
2021-01-04T02:00:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: And rerunning the assertion
2021-01-04T02:01:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: (where func2 and inv-func2 are a function and its inverse)
2021-01-04T02:02:29Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-04T02:05:33Z Alfr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T02:09:28Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-04T02:11:29Z hsaziz joined #lisp
2021-01-04T02:13:09Z hsaziz quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T02:14:00Z hsaziz joined #lisp
2021-01-04T02:16:22Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T02:18:25Z abhixec quit (Quit: brb restarting)
2021-01-04T02:22:50Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T02:23:02Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T02:24:32Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-04T02:25:19Z fixing_auth_hold quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-04T02:26:00Z thmprover: Uh, nconc is viewed as...bad form, right? In the sense that there's a better, more idiomatic way to do the same thing, correct?
2021-01-04T02:27:57Z aeth: depends
2021-01-04T02:28:29Z aeth: if it's nconc on something you've created locally without any literals (so no quote/quasiquote) then it's fine, but it's a microoptimization that might not make a difference
2021-01-04T02:28:53Z thmprover: Gotchya.
2021-01-04T02:28:58Z aeth: this is fine... (nconc (list 1 2 3) (list 4 5 6))
2021-01-04T02:29:03Z aeth: this needs to be append... (append '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
2021-01-04T02:29:19Z aeth: And if your list function could be used as a helper function in a macro, it has to be append, because source s-expressions are like the latter
2021-01-04T02:29:27Z aeth: at least, afaik. Your style guide may differ
2021-01-04T02:30:26Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-04T02:30:38Z aeth: thmprover: you might also want to consider this variant, because it's more even generic... (concatenate 'list '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
2021-01-04T02:31:09Z thmprover: Hmm...that might work better, for what I'm doing.
2021-01-04T02:31:22Z aeth: that last one could take a vector or a string or (afaik) even a user-defined sequence if the implementation has extensible sequences.
2021-01-04T02:32:02Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-04T02:33:27Z thmprover: That's a great point, I'm almost certainly going to be working with user-defined sequences. Thanks :)
2021-01-04T02:41:56Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-04T02:42:48Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-04T02:43:30Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-04T02:45:10Z semz joined #lisp
2021-01-04T02:45:10Z semz quit (Changing host)
2021-01-04T02:45:10Z semz joined #lisp
2021-01-04T02:49:04Z abhixec quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T02:51:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sometimes you can re-think your algorithms to avoid appending
2021-01-04T02:52:39Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T02:52:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. passing an adjustable vector around and vector-push-extending the new lists onto the vector
2021-01-04T02:53:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then just writing a version of map that takes such a vector and processes each list in the vector successively.
2021-01-04T02:53:52Z sgibber2018 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T03:01:27Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-04T03:01:41Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-04T03:05:21Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-04T03:06:18Z notzmv quit (Read error: No route to host)
2021-01-04T03:09:45Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-04T03:14:09Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T03:14:33Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-04T03:16:40Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T03:18:58Z Stanley|00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T03:19:25Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T03:19:28Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T03:19:39Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T03:22:06Z loke[m]: Hello
2021-01-04T03:25:36Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-04T03:26:44Z no-defun-allowed: Hello loke.
2021-01-04T03:27:08Z loke[m]: no-defun-allowed I thought you were in the US?
2021-01-04T03:27:24Z no-defun-allowed: Nope.
2021-01-04T03:28:57Z Stanley|00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T03:29:27Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T03:31:32Z loke[m]: AU?
2021-01-04T03:31:39Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, Australia.
2021-01-04T03:37:28Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-04T03:42:07Z shwouchk quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-04T03:42:40Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-04T03:44:57Z dbotton quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T03:52:16Z abhixec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T03:53:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-04T03:53:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-04T03:54:15Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T03:54:42Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-04T03:57:37Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-04T04:02:38Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-04T04:02:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-04T04:05:11Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-04T04:13:58Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T04:14:22Z Stanley00 quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-04T04:15:48Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T04:22:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: hi beach
2021-01-04T04:27:02Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-04T04:41:16Z Jesin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T04:41:57Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-04T04:46:52Z sgibber2018 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T04:47:22Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T04:49:31Z thmprover quit (Quit: ...and miles to go before I sleep.)
2021-01-04T04:52:51Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-04T04:58:02Z kagevf quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-04T05:00:46Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-04T05:01:58Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T05:03:06Z sloanr``` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T05:04:00Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-04T05:04:32Z kagevf joined #lisp
2021-01-04T05:06:10Z Posterdati joined #lisp
2021-01-04T05:09:12Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-04T05:09:19Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-04T05:15:31Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-04T05:24:16Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-04T05:25:32Z charles`: Why do default arguments for macros get evaluated?
2021-01-04T05:25:47Z beach: Er, what?
2021-01-04T05:26:31Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-04T05:26:55Z beach: charles`: No macro arguments are evaluated.
2021-01-04T05:27:11Z beach: charles`: The entire macro form turn into a single argument of the macro function.
2021-01-04T05:27:54Z charles`: (defmacro test (&optional (a (+ 3 4)))
2021-01-04T05:27:54Z charles`:            ,a)
2021-01-04T05:28:05Z charles`: (macroexpand '(test))
2021-01-04T05:28:13Z no-defun-allowed: If you put the arguments into the form produced, they get evaluated again after macro-expansion _as per usual_. eg with (defmacro foo (&optional (x 'x)) `(1+ x)), (foo) will expand to (1+ x), which will eventually evaluate X.
2021-01-04T05:28:45Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, evaluating the default values in lambda lists is also normal. But you couldn't write ,a as there is no backquote (just a will suffice).
2021-01-04T05:28:46Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-04T05:29:03Z charles`: it is supposed to be `,a
2021-01-04T05:29:21Z no-defun-allowed: If you want to bind A to (+ 3 4) to put (+ 3 4) in the expansion, then quote it.
2021-01-04T05:29:40Z no-defun-allowed: `,a ≡ a
2021-01-04T05:30:25Z charles`: So I can't have unevaluated default arguments?
2021-01-04T05:30:52Z no-defun-allowed: You quote them, eg (defmacro test (&optional (a '(+ 3 4))) a)
2021-01-04T05:33:25Z charles`: I see, that is most unexpected
2021-01-04T05:34:19Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure how it's out of the ordinary, admittedly.
2021-01-04T05:37:24Z charles`: It makes sense if you call it a lambda list, but it if you call it the parameter list for a macro it is confusing. Someone would see that the default argument is quoted and might think that their argument should be quoted as well
2021-01-04T05:38:26Z no-defun-allowed: Lambda lists are lambda lists*, regardless of if I have a lambda list in DEFUN, DEFMACRO, DESTRUCTURING-BIND, MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND, and so on.
2021-01-04T05:39:08Z no-defun-allowed: *Except that macros have extended lambda lists, with &environment and &whole from memory.
2021-01-04T05:39:13Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T05:39:59Z charles`: It certainly makes sense when put that way
2021-01-04T05:50:05Z xsperry quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T05:51:53Z xsperry joined #lisp
2021-01-04T05:53:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T05:53:44Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T05:58:40Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-04T05:58:58Z ldbeth: good aftrenoon
2021-01-04T05:59:36Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldbeth.
2021-01-04T06:03:01Z a0 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T06:03:51Z ldbeth: are there any projects implement aggressive optimizer/inliner/partial evaluator for a subset of CL?
2021-01-04T06:05:51Z no-defun-allowed: How aggressive is agressive? Most compilers will do some partial evaluation.
2021-01-04T06:07:46Z beach: Doing that kind of stuff in an implementation-independent way would imply source-to-source transformations, and that then becomes a mess when it comes to debugging, because source information would be in terms of the transformed code.
2021-01-04T06:08:07Z ldbeth: say given a (fib 45) it can unfold it to constant fixnum
2021-01-04T06:08:43Z beach: Stuff like that is undecidable in the general case.
2021-01-04T06:09:28Z no-defun-allowed: How long would you wait for (A 3 4), where A is the Ackermann function?
2021-01-04T06:09:32Z beach: ldbeth: Imagine that, instead of (fib 45) you said (ackermann 5 10)
2021-01-04T06:09:35Z beach: Heh.
2021-01-04T06:11:09Z beach: ldbeth: A large part of the art of partial evaluation has to do with choosing a decidable approximation of an otherwise undecidable domain.
2021-01-04T06:11:47Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T06:12:17Z ldbeth: Is it pratically feasible if unfolding aborts when the result exceeds biggest fixnum?
2021-01-04T06:12:34Z beach: Not good enough.
2021-01-04T06:13:10Z mfiano: How can you say the result scales linearly in a general case?
2021-01-04T06:13:13Z beach: Do the math.  How long does it take for a modern processor to execute most-positive-fixnum iterations.
2021-01-04T06:13:36Z beach: Even if it scales linearly, that's not good enough.
2021-01-04T06:13:53Z mfiano: Right.
2021-01-04T06:14:16Z ldbeth: http://akrl.sdf.org/gccemacs.html#org0324e5b
2021-01-04T06:14:20Z vidak` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T06:14:43Z vidak` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T06:14:54Z ldbeth: It starts get me interested because GCC Emacs does better than CL on some trival benchmarks
2021-01-04T06:15:44Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-04T06:16:04Z beach: Trivial benchmarks usually don't provide any useful information.
2021-01-04T06:16:29Z ldbeth: GCC Elisp takes to run 0.00 fibn from elisp-benchmarks, and from the article it implies the fibn function get unfolded to a constant
2021-01-04T06:16:41Z mfiano: The speedups you see here should only be taken as very roughly indicative of the speedup you may see in real code. When in doubt, benchmark your particular domain on the hardware you intend to run it on.
2021-01-04T06:17:32Z ldbeth: I do realize that trivial benchmarks usually does not reflect pratical performance
2021-01-04T06:18:19Z beach: ldbeth: Also, no sane person would write a call to FIB with a constant value in production code.  It would be a read-time evaluation.
2021-01-04T06:18:55Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Quit: Пока, мир.)
2021-01-04T06:19:08Z ldbeth: sure, in CL we can manually #.
2021-01-04T06:19:59Z beach: The only way I can see that result is if FIB is treated specially.
2021-01-04T06:20:15Z beach: If not, you should try it with the Ackermann function.
2021-01-04T06:20:44Z frost-lab joined #lisp
2021-01-04T06:21:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: ACL2 proves theorems in a total subset of CL, right?
2021-01-04T06:21:54Z ldbeth: fiddlerwoaroof: yes
2021-01-04T06:22:15Z ldbeth: but it can hardly be used to optimize "real" CL code
2021-01-04T06:22:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, no one has tried yet :)
2021-01-04T06:23:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are other total languages that are trying to be useful: the Dhall expression language and Idris, for two
2021-01-04T06:23:28Z aeth: Write an optimizing compiler that detects when benchmark authors are trying to bench a naively-written Fibonacci number calculation and replace it at compile time with the explicit formula to get the Fibonacci number...
2021-01-04T06:24:29Z ldbeth: ACL2 mainly aims to hardware verification people, they have very different need from a "pratical" programming language
2021-01-04T06:24:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not dying that, I'm just saying it's an existence proof of what you asked for
2021-01-04T06:25:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/dying/denying/
2021-01-04T06:27:03Z a0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T06:28:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: The subset of CL that ACL2 can prove theorems about can be aggressively partialy evaluated
2021-01-04T06:30:04Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-01-04T06:30:11Z ldbeth: however GCC Emacs optimize the fib function written with setf as well as using tail recursion
2021-01-04T06:30:42Z ldbeth: an applicative subset is not comparable
2021-01-04T06:33:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does gccemacs implement a tracing JIT?
2021-01-04T06:34:12Z ldbeth: no, it precompiles ELisp files
2021-01-04T06:34:23Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-04T06:34:50Z ldbeth: "Despite what the name suggest libgccjit is usable not just for making jitters but for any other kind of compiler."
2021-01-04T06:35:58Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-04T06:36:00Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-04T06:40:15Z Jesin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T06:42:38Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T06:45:43Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-04T06:54:19Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T06:55:10Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-04T06:57:53Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T07:02:16Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T07:02:54Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-04T07:05:34Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T07:08:23Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-04T07:11:44Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-04T07:17:19Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-04T07:18:25Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T07:21:18Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-04T07:22:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T07:24:54Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-04T07:29:53Z ldbeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T07:30:06Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-04T07:30:10Z ldbeth left #lisp
2021-01-04T07:32:30Z oni-on-ion quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T07:41:10Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T07:47:34Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-04T07:47:35Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-04T07:51:55Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-04T07:55:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T08:01:13Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:03:20Z ym joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:03:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T08:03:28Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:05:43Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T08:06:24Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:06:28Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:16:16Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:17:38Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-04T08:18:01Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-04T08:18:01Z andreyorst_ is now known as andreyorst
2021-01-04T08:24:09Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:24:32Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:26:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T08:26:58Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:27:02Z frodef`: beach: thanks for the link.
2021-01-04T08:27:58Z beach: Sure.  Enjoy! :)
2021-01-04T08:28:12Z beach: We extracted the code to a library: Clostrum.
2021-01-04T08:28:17Z frodef`: beach: btw, is the general approach SICL to conceptually live "inside" or "outside" the parameters of CL?
2021-01-04T08:28:36Z beach: I am not sure I know what that means.
2021-01-04T08:28:37Z frodef`: beach: not sure how to describe it better... :)
2021-01-04T08:28:47Z beach: Example?
2021-01-04T08:29:49Z frodef`: do you thing of the CL environment as a "subsystem", or is the CL environment the "end goal"...
2021-01-04T08:29:55Z no-defun-allowed: To do things outside the scope of of Common Lisp? Well, sure, there's threads, atomics, weak values, networking, so on and so forth, which weren't always de-facto standard. So everyone lives outside Common Lisp.
2021-01-04T08:30:06Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, never mind.
2021-01-04T08:30:19Z frodef`: (sorry again for such a imprecise question, I'v obviously not thought it very well through.)
2021-01-04T08:30:31Z beach: frodef`: The goal is CLOSOS, if that answers the question.
2021-01-04T08:31:08Z beach: So yes, all the goodies that no-defun-allowed mentioned are needed.
2021-01-04T08:31:29Z frodef`: sure, like every CL implementation.
2021-01-04T08:32:14Z beach: I take it that doesn't answer your question, then. :(
2021-01-04T08:32:15Z no-defun-allowed: Having a good CL environment with as much stuff as possible would be the end goal to me.
2021-01-04T08:33:21Z beach: frodef`: I do want a conforming and strict Common Lisp implementation, but there is plenty of other functionality needed.  And I also want to explore all the ways the standard allows in order to simplify the code.
2021-01-04T08:33:42Z no-defun-allowed: Or do you mean that the Lisp environment is a subsystem of a larger programming system, with an external editor, a profiler, a version control system, and other tools?
2021-01-04T08:34:12Z beach: Oh, that one!  Yes, definitely a CLIM-based IDE is what I am aiming for.
2021-01-04T08:36:14Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:36:18Z frodef`: how about a system that is "good" (i.e. "great!") and also just reasonably compatible with CL programs?
2021-01-04T08:36:49Z frodef`: no-defun-allowed: something like that I guess.
2021-01-04T08:36:51Z no-defun-allowed: I want to work on putting "modern" stuff like high performance IO and concurrent programming tools in Common Lisp, but in a way that doesn't completely mess up my programming style, and if I have to hack an implementation to get it to work, it will most likely be SICL when it's ready for that.
2021-01-04T08:37:08Z no-defun-allowed: I don't see SICL breaking compatibility in Common Lisp any time soon?
2021-01-04T08:37:35Z beach: frodef`: That is certainly an option, but I don't want that to be the only thing.  I do want to create a good Common Lisp system for people who are currently Common Lisp programmers.
2021-01-04T08:38:24Z beach: frodef`: The problem is mainly that I am not smart enough to change the language.  I just don't have the experience that the good people who wrote the standard did, even back then.
2021-01-04T08:41:19Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Exactly!
2021-01-04T08:42:03Z no-defun-allowed: The way I see it, making breaking changes not only leaves you with the pieces if something goes wrong, it leaves you with everything else which is now broken if everything goes right.
2021-01-04T08:42:13Z beach: frodef`: The first-class global environments is such a thing that it is transparent to conforming Common Lisp programs, but it gives a whole new tool if the programmer wants to go beyond the standard.
2021-01-04T08:42:47Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Very philosophical. :)
2021-01-04T08:43:03Z frodef`: beach: yup, seems a good idea.
2021-01-04T08:44:13Z beach: I am still not sure whether your question was answered, but I hope you have some more hints.  What was the reason for your question?
2021-01-04T08:44:16Z no-defun-allowed: Although hardly related, I have this opinion after a discussion with my favourite co-author about "Why Turtl Switched From CL to JavaScript" <https://lisp-journey.gitlab.io/blog/why-turtl-switched-from-lisp-to-js/>, in which the author was mainly stuffed, because they began writing asynchronous code, and had to either patch in, or completely rewrite, all this synchronous stuff that already existed.
2021-01-04T08:44:53Z frodef`: beach: sure thanks, sorry again for being wishy-washy.
2021-01-04T08:46:06Z beach: No problem.  But what was the reason? :)
2021-01-04T08:46:08Z frodef`: I do think CL have some warts and shortcomings. Warts like e.g. the sequence functions that I sometimes see as both awkward to use and incurs extra O(N) performance hits.
2021-01-04T08:46:55Z frodef`: beach: reason being general interest and trying to understand the SICL project, combined with my own related experience I guess.
2021-01-04T08:47:07Z beach: frodef`: Yes, I have seen hints about your opinions lately.
2021-01-04T08:48:36Z beach: frodef`: The reason for the SICL project is that I wanted to improve on implementations, but not the language (for which I am not smart enough), but the improvements I could see would be unacceptable to maintainers of existing implementations.
2021-01-04T08:48:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T08:49:03Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T08:49:23Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T08:49:36Z beach: frodef`: In particular, I want to improve on development and debugging tools.  I am always amazed when I see how some people here think Emacs+SLIME represent the best development environment around, no matter the language.
2021-01-04T08:49:46Z frodef`: beach: right.
2021-01-04T08:50:08Z beach: I mean, calling the "SLIME debugger" a "debugger" is a joke.
2021-01-04T08:50:18Z beach: ... as my paper on debugging explains.
2021-01-04T08:50:19Z frodef`: beach: that brings me to antoher of my pet peevs, the lack of a recursive debugger/repl in SLIME.
2021-01-04T08:50:26Z frodef`: s/peeves
2021-01-04T08:50:33Z frodef`: ...isn't it?
2021-01-04T08:50:42Z phoe: recursive? what do you mean?
2021-01-04T08:50:46Z phoe: you can nest debuggers
2021-01-04T08:50:57Z phoe: and you can interact with the REPL while the debugger is open
2021-01-04T08:51:32Z frodef`: phoe: have you used ELI?
2021-01-04T08:51:36Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:51:46Z phoe: frodef`: nope. what is it like?
2021-01-04T08:51:47Z beach: frodef`: I don't consider "staring at a backtrace when things go wrong" a "debugger".  I want to be able to set breakpoints without recompiling the code, and I want to be able to step from a breakpoint.
2021-01-04T08:52:24Z frodef`: beach: yes, that too.
2021-01-04T08:52:56Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:53:14Z frodef`: phoe: what I think is essential, is basically to be able to do this: ...
2021-01-04T08:53:21Z beach: And, if I run ASDF from the SLIME REPL, I get no presentations to click on, and I get compiler messages as text that I then have to manually match to the source code.
2021-01-04T08:53:41Z mfiano: Sly stickers, and breaking stickers, are a vast improvement over the SLIME debugging experience, and print traditional "print debugging".
2021-01-04T08:53:46Z frodef`: (let ((*dynamic-context* 'foo)) (invoke-debugger))
2021-01-04T08:53:56Z frodef`: ..and get a new, usable REPL.
2021-01-04T08:54:10Z phoe: frodef`: oh, a new one, as opposed to reusing the old one?
2021-01-04T08:54:32Z phoe: because in slime, the old REPL then ends up in that new dynamic context
2021-01-04T08:54:38Z phoe: until you leave the debugger, that is
2021-01-04T08:55:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T08:55:10Z beach: mfiano: If the underlying Common Lisp implementations can't set breakpoints, I think there are limits to the possible improvements.
2021-01-04T08:55:35Z beach: mfiano: But I haven't used Sly, so I don't know how much better it is.
2021-01-04T08:55:47Z frodef`: phoe: well, maybe slime even works the way it should, but the "debugger" buffer gives me a very strong impetus to "get out of here!" immediately.
2021-01-04T08:56:04Z mfiano: Indeed. You don't have to tell me. I have seen your talks. I'm just saying there are better alternatives/companions to the "SLIME Debugger"
2021-01-04T08:56:05Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:56:12Z beach: mfiano: I also seem to recall some people here mentioning features that are missing in Sly that I often use.
2021-01-04T08:56:23Z beach: mfiano: Ah, OK.
2021-01-04T08:56:26Z frodef`: phoe: maybe I should investigate slime more carefully.. :)
2021-01-04T08:56:34Z phoe: frodef`: I see and understand; still, the REPL buffer is still working even with the debugger open
2021-01-04T08:56:46Z phoe: you can minimize the buffer or keep it elsewhere while you REPL your way out of the error
2021-01-04T08:56:55Z mfiano: beach: Which features that you often use?
2021-01-04T08:57:02Z phoe: and only then hit some restart in the debugger window, or manually INVOKE-RESTART in the REPL to make it disappear
2021-01-04T08:57:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: frodef`: as far as the O(n) issues with sequence functions, most of those are solvable
2021-01-04T08:57:25Z beach: mfiano: I can't remember what it was.  I just saw someone mention it as lacking is Sly, and I recognized that I used it.
2021-01-04T08:58:04Z beach: frodef`: So, I suggest that, instead of trying to improve the language, you use your experience and knowledge to help create a better development environment.
2021-01-04T08:58:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: The SERIES package is one example of a solution
2021-01-04T08:58:08Z mfiano: The only thing I can recall off hand that is lacking in Sly over SLIME, is a contrib for SBCL's statistical profiler.
2021-01-04T08:58:26Z beach: That doesn't ring a bell.
2021-01-04T08:58:34Z frodef`: beach: sure, trying to get up to speed again :)
2021-01-04T08:58:49Z beach: mfiano: Maybe I should just try Sly and let you know when I wanted something that is missing.
2021-01-04T08:58:51Z phoe: frodef`: there's an upcoming video where I show the basics of this thing off
2021-01-04T08:59:00Z beach: frodef`: Great!
2021-01-04T08:59:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: is there slime-media in SLY?
2021-01-04T08:59:07Z phoe: it'll be available tomorrow evening and I'll post it on Reddit once it's made available
2021-01-04T08:59:24Z mfiano: Sly is forked off of SLIME with nothing really removed, just features added and bugs fixed that weren't in the interest of SLIME. Of course, there are probably some exceptions to this, which I cannot recall off hand.
2021-01-04T08:59:36Z frodef`: phoe: nice! "upcoming" as in "there's already a series of videos on related stuff"?
2021-01-04T08:59:36Z phoe: presentations
2021-01-04T08:59:51Z phoe: frodef`: yes
2021-01-04T08:59:54Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T08:59:58Z mfiano: In Sly, everything is a button and can be clicked on to inspect/further manipulate.
2021-01-04T09:00:05Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-04T09:00:09Z mfiano: So no, no presentations. We have more useful buttons.
2021-01-04T09:00:24Z phoe: someone asked me for an interview about the Common Lisp condition system and it turned out to be an interview about Common Lisp in general
2021-01-04T09:00:40Z beach: Oh, nice!  Who is "someone"?
2021-01-04T09:00:41Z phoe: and the video will go public tomorrow, showing off my majestic technical screensharing setup too
2021-01-04T09:00:59Z phoe: beach: you'll see
2021-01-04T09:01:01Z phoe: :D
2021-01-04T09:01:03Z beach: Heh, OK.
2021-01-04T09:05:36Z mfiano: One nice feature of Sly, is a function which can be used to send arbitrary data to the REPL from CL. I use this in a game engine to be able to cast a ray through 3-space where the mouse cursor is, and return a CLOS instance of the first object intersecting that raycast, so "mouse picking" in a projected 3-dimensional space.
2021-01-04T09:06:07Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-04T09:06:27Z mfiano: But Stickers, as I've mentioned, is one of it's main selling points for me.
2021-01-04T09:06:45Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T09:07:38Z frodef`: phoe: is there a link to said video series?
2021-01-04T09:07:40Z flip214: mfiano: is that a kind of dev env like Unity?
2021-01-04T09:08:35Z phoe: frodef`: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTx-VKTe8yLyKtsZhfHbQ6N9u_5E5nbHK
2021-01-04T09:08:43Z mfiano: I have a game engine I've been working on for years, that takes a lot of inspiration from Unity (and fixes a lot of its mistakes [and admittedly creates more still])
2021-01-04T09:08:59Z phoe: oh bother, the video is already there :O
2021-01-04T09:09:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T09:09:08Z phoe: even though it's unlisted!
2021-01-04T09:09:12Z frodef`: phoe: thanks!
2021-01-04T09:09:21Z phoe just broke the veil of silence
2021-01-04T09:09:37Z frodef`: phoe: why the veil/unlisting?
2021-01-04T09:10:28Z flip214: mfiano: I'd love to have something unity-like (but not too like it ;) in CL... that could enable quite a lot of quick game ideas
2021-01-04T09:10:42Z frodef`: phoe: oh.. the /series/ wasn't unlisted, I guess.
2021-01-04T09:10:44Z phoe: frodef`: it's scheduled for a minor premiere tomorrow.
2021-01-04T09:10:49Z phoe: yes, the playlist is public
2021-01-04T09:11:12Z phoe: and a public playlist can contain links to unlisted videos.
2021-01-04T09:11:28Z frodef`: phoe: right. thanks again.
2021-01-04T09:11:50Z a0 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T09:11:51Z phoe notifies the playlist owner and waits for the scolding
2021-01-04T09:14:01Z mfiano: Sadly my game engine is not documented yet, and aimed at professional-quality games, not quick prototypical projects. Its focus is on interactivity, thus removing the need for an "editor". For example, there is a rather complex DEFINE-PREFAB macro that can be used to describe arbitrary sub-trees that can be instantiated or spliced into other sub-trees to be instantiated with them. C-c C-c'ing any of
2021-01-04T09:14:02Z hsaziz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-04T09:14:03Z mfiano: these as a game is running is an easy way to redefine large portions of the game. There is a DEFINE-* form for everything actually, including individual GLSL shader functions.
2021-01-04T09:15:04Z flip214: sounds cool!
2021-01-04T09:15:24Z frodef`: phoe video: "... why don't everybody do this if it has been known for a long time?", indeed.
2021-01-04T09:16:10Z no-defun-allowed: They're functional programmers, so they should know the answer.
2021-01-04T09:16:40Z no-defun-allowed: And, of course, they know the answer is because no one wrote a paper detailing the denotational semantics and underpinning by the lambda calculus or something like that.
2021-01-04T09:16:46Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T09:17:28Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T09:18:48Z no-defun-allowed: (But actually, someone told me that without the presence of state, having the dynamic environment doesn't matter. Also, aren't they supposed to not have bugs or something? I'll stop now.)
2021-01-04T09:19:38Z flip214: mfiano: is it open source, per chance?
2021-01-04T09:19:55Z mfiano: flip214: The problem is it's a lot of work, as evidenced by working at it for about a decade now, and while it can be used to make games currently, it is still far from ready. The sad part is, even with a complete game engine that is general-purpose enough for the kind of game you want to make, game development is an even longer process. Just the playtest-tweak feedback loop could take a year or
2021-01-04T09:19:56Z mfiano: longer, and that's after all the game logic, assets, have allocated a lot of time. I wouldn't advice anyone to make an engine if that are looking to make a game, heh.
2021-01-04T09:20:32Z mfiano: Yes it is, but I wouldn't recommend using it yet, not that it'd make much sense, being such a large codebase and without documentation yet.
2021-01-04T09:20:45Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-04T09:21:08Z frodef`: no-defun-allowed: the idea that a software system should not be designed on the assumption that there are no bugs, seems to be lost.
2021-01-04T09:23:23Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-04T09:24:27Z Alfr quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T09:25:13Z mfiano: It's quite a large project, and has been refactored several times, and I still wouldn't call it the nicest code I've written. Just the math support library is 15hloc and growing, which is quite a lot for Lisp.
2021-01-04T09:25:18Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-04T09:25:27Z mfiano: 15kloc*
2021-01-04T09:27:16Z flip214: mfiano: well, make it a well-known project and hope for volunteers to help clean it up?!
2021-01-04T09:28:28Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-04T09:28:40Z mfiano: My goal right now is to add some of the missing features that are absolutely needed, so that I can finalize its API and begin documenting it. Only then can I advertise or recommend its use
2021-01-04T09:29:24Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T09:30:52Z mfiano: I was prepared to give a talk on phoe's stream soon, but I decided against that, as I really want to stabilize it first (sorry phoe).
2021-01-04T09:32:13Z phoe: no problem, quality before quantity
2021-01-04T09:32:44Z mfiano: I might consider giving a theory talk on why I think CL is the best language for gamedev, but as far as demonstrating my project(s), I don't think that is a good idea.
2021-01-04T09:35:18Z frodef`: Is there really no way to add your own slime shortcuts? The comma commands, I mean.
2021-01-04T09:40:58Z phoe: frodef`: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/fb12bac676ab51b75be19197e21ab4674479d627/contrib/slime-repl.el#L1491-L1493
2021-01-04T09:41:09Z phoe: that's the implementation for ,restart-inferior-lisp
2021-01-04T09:41:42Z phoe: see above for more examples
2021-01-04T09:42:12Z frodef`: phoe: right, thanks.
2021-01-04T09:46:43Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-04T09:51:09Z beach: phoe: "VAR-ee-able", not "var-EYE-able"
2021-01-04T09:51:45Z phoe: beach: thanks, I'm trying to fix this :D
2021-01-04T09:52:30Z beach: Your written English is quite good, so I am aiming for perfection. :)
2021-01-04T09:53:51Z beach: "un-w-eye-nding" not "un-wind-ing"
2021-01-04T09:55:15Z phoe: I remember that one too
2021-01-04T09:56:06Z hsaziz joined #lisp
2021-01-04T09:58:11Z flip214: beach: +1, though I'm not sure how much improvement you can get (or expect)
2021-01-04T09:58:48Z beach: From what?
2021-01-04T10:00:21Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T10:00:30Z flip214: from people's speeches
2021-01-04T10:01:30Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-04T10:01:41Z beach: Like I said, phoe's written English is quite good, and he has only a few major quirks, so I think there is hope. :)
2021-01-04T10:02:37Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T10:02:38Z beach: For speakers of German pronouncing English `v' as an English `w' I have much more work to do. :)
2021-01-04T10:02:39Z flip214: "only a few major quirks" would get me a MAJOR look from my daughter ;)
2021-01-04T10:03:45Z beach: I don't understand.
2021-01-04T10:05:33Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T10:06:07Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-04T10:06:13Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T10:06:48Z flip214: My daughter opines that I've committed some major faults in her (and her siblings) education, being too sincere or outright and similar stuff
2021-01-04T10:07:39Z beach: Ah, I see.
2021-01-04T10:07:44Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-04T10:08:00Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-04T10:09:27Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-04T10:09:38Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-04T10:09:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-04T10:09:56Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T10:11:37Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T10:12:15Z beach: flip214: I see huge differences in my students, with respect to the willingness to learn and to be humiliated and embarrassed (which is an essential part of learning).  My estimate is that phoe prefers to learn and that he can deal with humiliation and embarrassment, especially since he knows me and my intentions.
2021-01-04T10:12:40Z beach: For your offspring, you need to tread carefully according to the attitude of each one.
2021-01-04T10:13:33Z frodef`: beach: differences in what direction? Or do you mean individual differences?
2021-01-04T10:14:03Z beach: Individual differences in attitude toward learning new stuff.
2021-01-04T10:14:33Z frodef`: right, at first I thought you meant an overall trend over the years.
2021-01-04T10:14:41Z beach: No, not at all.
2021-01-04T10:14:56Z frodef`: good :)
2021-01-04T10:16:15Z dhil joined #lisp
2021-01-04T10:21:08Z flip214: beach: most of that is just good-natured leg-pulling... and everything that we've done wrong it's too late to change now anyway ;)
2021-01-04T10:21:28Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-04T10:22:01Z beach: Also parents have a tendency to hugely exaggerate their influence on their children.
2021-01-04T10:26:11Z v3ga left #lisp
2021-01-04T10:26:51Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-04T10:27:17Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T10:27:51Z ralt: I personally think the "praise in public, blame in private" motto is not a too bad one
2021-01-04T10:28:14Z ralt: especially for things like correcting english, doing it in PM isn't too much of a chore, and would potentially avoid the off-topic in #lisp ;-)
2021-01-04T10:28:27Z beach: Point taken.
2021-01-04T10:29:24Z flip214: but then all the other people couldn't learn at the same time, increasing beach's work by a factor > 1!
2021-01-04T10:29:25Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T10:29:38Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T10:29:42Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T10:30:44Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-04T10:34:25Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T10:35:20Z beach: phoe: This interview is an excellent exposure of Common Lisp to (I assume) people who did not yet know much of it.
2021-01-04T10:38:01Z phoe bows
2021-01-04T10:38:04Z phoe: hope that it works well
2021-01-04T10:39:22Z beach: At 52 minutes, that implementation is known as "shallow binding".
2021-01-04T10:39:58Z phoe: beach: thanks
2021-01-04T10:40:07Z phoe adds a note for second edition for TCLCS
2021-01-04T10:41:32Z frodef`: beach: do you have thread-safe shallow binding for sicl?
2021-01-04T10:41:35Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-04T10:41:52Z beach: My plan is to use deep binding.
2021-01-04T10:41:56Z hsaziz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-04T10:42:06Z frodef`: ok
2021-01-04T10:42:37Z frodef`: it's an interesting problem I think.
2021-01-04T10:42:57Z beach: I am kind of the co-designer of the technique used by SBCL. :)
2021-01-04T10:43:31Z frodef`: beach: cool, do you have a pointer to info?
2021-01-04T10:43:55Z beach: Not really.  It was designed together with dan_b some 20 years ago.
2021-01-04T10:44:26Z frodef`: ..an executive summary, then? :)
2021-01-04T10:44:28Z beach: I counted on him to do the real implementation work, which apparently he did.
2021-01-04T10:45:24Z beach: Number the symbols, or at least the ones that are bound.  Provide a thread-specific slot in the thread object.  Put old values on the stack.
2021-01-04T10:45:56Z beach: The thread object contains an array of slots, indexed by the symbol number.
2021-01-04T10:47:12Z beach: So access to a special variable is: Go to the thread object, and index the vector with the symbol number.
2021-01-04T10:47:47Z beach: Global values have to be handled specially.  I forget what we came up with.
2021-01-04T10:49:22Z phoe: if the thread-specific slot is EQ to some unbound value, visit the thread-independent global value stored somewhere?
2021-01-04T10:49:32Z phoe: that's the first thing that comes to my mind
2021-01-04T10:49:49Z frodef`: beach: isn't that O(1)-ish shallow binding?
2021-01-04T10:50:02Z beach: Yes, that was the idea.
2021-01-04T10:50:12Z beach: Not cheap, but O(1).
2021-01-04T10:51:41Z beach: phoe: Not quite.  The latest binding can be unbound which is valid.
2021-01-04T10:51:50Z beach: That's what PROGV does as I recall.
2021-01-04T10:52:20Z phoe: huh? can it make a variable unbound?
2021-01-04T10:52:44Z beach: Yes, I think the phrase is "binds it and then makes it unbound" or something like that.
2021-01-04T10:52:54Z phoe: > progv creates new dynamic variable bindings and executes each form using those bindings. Each form is evaluated in order.
2021-01-04T10:52:57Z phoe: clhs progv
2021-01-04T10:52:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm
2021-01-04T10:53:24Z phoe: I don't think PROGV can ever make a dynavar unbound
2021-01-04T10:54:07Z phoe: which then means that the existence of *any* binding causes the variable to be bound
2021-01-04T10:54:10Z beach: If too few values are supplied, the remaining symbols are bound and then made to have no value"
2021-01-04T10:54:16Z beach: I didn't mean "unbind"
2021-01-04T10:54:22Z phoe: ...oh wait a second...
2021-01-04T10:54:23Z beach: I meant "made to have no value".
2021-01-04T10:54:42Z phoe: ...oh shit
2021-01-04T10:54:46Z phoe stares
2021-01-04T10:54:57Z phoe: I was completely unaware of this
2021-01-04T10:55:16Z phoe: oh well then, s/some unbound value/some marker value that is different from the unbound value/
2021-01-04T10:55:28Z beach: So you can have a recent binding with no value shadowing a less recent one with a value.
2021-01-04T10:55:41Z beach: And SYMBOL-VALUE will then signal an error.
2021-01-04T10:55:53Z beach: Sure, that might work.
2021-01-04T10:56:44Z ralt: oooh 22:30 is actually an a-ha moment for me
2021-01-04T10:56:59Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-04T10:58:50Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T11:00:59Z phoe: ralt: what exactly?
2021-01-04T11:01:17Z ralt: the fact that handlers are just functions that are called normally at this part of the stack
2021-01-04T11:01:55Z ralt: this makes it obvious why this is not unwinding the stack
2021-01-04T11:03:24Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-04T11:04:08Z phoe: (with-shameless-plug (princ "that's a sneak-peek of the contents of TCLCS, if you ever decide to read it"))
2021-01-04T11:04:13Z beach: It is very simple.  Yet, other languages haven't figured it out.
2021-01-04T11:04:18Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-04T11:04:45Z beach: phoe: I am currently reading it.  I was given it for christmas.
2021-01-04T11:04:53Z phoe: beach: I know, you told me
2021-01-04T11:04:56Z beach: Oh. :(
2021-01-04T11:05:02Z beach: Memory!
2021-01-04T11:05:53Z phoe: no problem, I'm here to remind you :D
2021-01-04T11:05:58Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T11:06:15Z beach: Good.  Can I hire you full time to do that?
2021-01-04T11:07:01Z ralt: phoe: it has my name on it, I have to buy it anyway :P
2021-01-04T11:07:43Z beach: phoe:  I don't  know the interviewer, but I take it it's about functional programming, usually, yes?
2021-01-04T11:08:34Z phoe: ralt: :D
2021-01-04T11:08:46Z beach: But let me say this again.  Excellent plug for Common Lisp.  And the ease with which you manipulate the development environment is bound to impress them.
2021-01-04T11:09:04Z phoe: beach: yes, this person comes from the functional programming community and was interested by TCLCS and Lisp in general
2021-01-04T11:09:17Z beach: Great!
2021-01-04T11:09:17Z phoe: I mentioned to him that Lisp isn't really functional, but he wanted to discuss things anyway
2021-01-04T11:09:25Z beach: Yes, I see.
2021-01-04T11:09:25Z phoe: so, well, we discussed em
2021-01-04T11:21:20Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-04T11:23:18Z nullheroes joined #lisp
2021-01-04T11:24:14Z frodef` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T11:27:07Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-04T11:27:21Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T11:28:44Z ralt: actually, how is a retry restart not going down the stack if it's just a normal function?
2021-01-04T11:28:57Z phoe: ralt: what do you mean, not going down the stack?
2021-01-04T11:29:08Z phoe: a restart is just a structure, it's a piece of data
2021-01-04T11:29:16Z ralt: restart handler, sorry
2021-01-04T11:29:18Z phoe: it has a restart function that can perform a non-local jump
2021-01-04T11:29:22Z phoe: that's all
2021-01-04T11:29:29Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-04T11:29:38Z ralt: what I mean is when you execute a function, you add a new entry to the stack
2021-01-04T11:29:54Z phoe: yes
2021-01-04T11:30:07Z ralt: if you execute a restart handler, and you pick "Retry", the naive way would be to call the function again
2021-01-04T11:30:12Z phoe: and then this entry on the stack can perform a GO or a RETURN-FROM or a THROW
2021-01-04T11:30:14Z ralt: which would add to the stack
2021-01-04T11:30:18Z phoe: and therefore unwind the stack
2021-01-04T11:30:22Z phoe: the whole magic of the condition system is because we have UNWIND-PROTECT and TAGBODY/GO/BLOCK/RETURN-FROM
2021-01-04T11:30:25Z ralt: ah, it's using a GO to unwind the stack
2021-01-04T11:30:40Z phoe: it can use any of the three
2021-01-04T11:30:49Z phoe: GO and RETURN-FROM are the most common
2021-01-04T11:31:03Z phoe: you could take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4P9lFK79hQ where I describe the topic - both halves of the video should be of interest to you
2021-01-04T11:31:31Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T11:36:08Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-04T11:36:15Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T11:39:54Z flip214: phoe: the Hello-world example is on the SBCL20 shirts!
2021-01-04T11:40:07Z phoe: flip214: which example?
2021-01-04T11:40:15Z phoe: the tagbody one?
2021-01-04T11:40:50Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T11:41:44Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-04T11:41:56Z flip214: yeah
2021-01-04T11:43:16Z okflo joined #lisp
2021-01-04T11:43:40Z flip214: the example is not that great, or surprising, anyway...
2021-01-04T11:43:51Z phoe: surprising to whom exactly though
2021-01-04T11:44:17Z phoe: I've showed it to several people and the general reaction was either "wow you can do that in Lisp?" or "wow you can do BASIC in Lisp?"
2021-01-04T11:44:40Z phoe: so I'd count it as an eye-opener; a very trivial one, yes, but still
2021-01-04T11:45:25Z flip214: great, that's what I was aiming at
2021-01-04T11:46:01Z phoe: there are more contrived examples to be shown, including LOOP expansions (which I did in the video), but IMO it's important to start with something as simple as possible
2021-01-04T11:46:20Z frodef`` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T11:46:23Z phoe: and the tagbody hello world example is perfect for that
2021-01-04T11:47:16Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T11:47:37Z flip214: right!
2021-01-04T11:47:58Z flip214: and at least the previous generation (now in management) will find that familiar
2021-01-04T11:48:13Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-04T11:48:13Z phoe: the "now in management" comment made me giggle
2021-01-04T11:52:38Z flip214: well, age-wise
2021-01-04T11:53:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T11:53:08Z phoe: yes, I understood that
2021-01-04T11:53:31Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-04T11:54:33Z flip214: so we need to have some similar-to-python snippets for such videos in 20 years, when The Next Generation has taken over
2021-01-04T11:55:05Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T11:59:11Z Krystof: I like the optimism that the world will still exist in 20 years
2021-01-04T11:59:22Z Krystof: Happy New Year!
2021-01-04T11:59:41Z no-defun-allowed: If we don't do the impossible, we will be faced with the unthinkable.
2021-01-04T11:59:57Z no-defun-allowed: Doing the impossible requires some stubbornness though.
2021-01-04T12:00:59Z Krystof: and a good breakfast
2021-01-04T12:01:06Z flip214: Krystof: as I invested in having kids, it better not stop turning until that has paid off!
2021-01-04T12:01:25Z beach: Krystof: You too.
2021-01-04T12:01:37Z flip214: you can surely relate to that...
2021-01-04T12:01:57Z flip214: Krystof: so you're moving to France?
2021-01-04T12:03:14Z Krystof: what?  No, not currently planning to
2021-01-04T12:03:39Z flip214: well, you talked about getting a good breakfast ;)
2021-01-04T12:04:34Z beach: French breakfast is horrible compared to English breakfast.
2021-01-04T12:04:58Z heisig: French breakfast is a cup of coffee and a cigarette.
2021-01-04T12:05:06Z flip214: really? I haven't been to the UK for more than switching between planes, but there's this joke about Canada...
2021-01-04T12:05:34Z beach: heisig: A croissant if you have been good.
2021-01-04T12:05:51Z ralt: And a pain au chocolat
2021-01-04T12:05:59Z beach: That would be OR.
2021-01-04T12:06:18Z beach: Besides, they are called "chocolatines" where I live.
2021-01-04T12:06:21Z ralt: No. And. I'm hungry for breakfast.
2021-01-04T12:07:06Z ralt: I live in another part of France, those calling it "chocolatine" are considered heathens around here :p
2021-01-04T12:07:58Z heisig: And thus, the channel derailed...
2021-01-04T12:08:11Z beach will stop now.
2021-01-04T12:08:34Z flip214: heisig: food always makes a good /topic
2021-01-04T12:09:13Z beach: flip214: I see you are set on starting two off-topic discussion with short intervals.
2021-01-04T12:10:19Z flip214: beach: oh, sorry. I'll shut up.
2021-01-04T12:10:26Z phoe: food is on-topic in #lispcafe!
2021-01-04T12:13:09Z ralt: beach is not over here tho
2021-01-04T12:14:30Z phoe: well, he should join, I'm kinda curious about French breakfasts but I don't want to make #lisp participants hungry by discussing foodstuffs here
2021-01-04T12:14:33Z phoe: :D
2021-01-04T12:20:01Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T12:25:07Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T12:26:03Z varjag: anyone knows if there's a way to broadcast udp in lispworks, other than via ffi?
2021-01-04T12:26:04Z beach: *sigh*
2021-01-04T12:26:05Z Stanley|00 quit
2021-01-04T12:26:30Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T12:26:52Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T12:27:23Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T12:27:39Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-04T12:28:27Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-04T12:29:57Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T12:30:17Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T12:30:38Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T12:31:12Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T12:34:26Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T12:34:43Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T12:37:00Z phoe: varjag: maybe HUG will know better
2021-01-04T12:37:46Z flip214: https://www.twitch.tv/elsconf/videos?filter=all   says "ELSConf is offline" and there are no videos... are they somewhere else?
2021-01-04T12:38:40Z phoe: flip214: https://www.youtube.com/c/EuropeanLispSymposium/videos
2021-01-04T12:38:46Z phoe: twitch autodeletes videos after two weeks AFAIK
2021-01-04T12:38:52Z flip214: oh, okay. thanks!
2021-01-04T12:38:56Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-04T12:39:45Z ralt: varjag: I think USOCKET allows you to use UDP sockets
2021-01-04T12:43:15Z frodef``: hi varjag
2021-01-04T12:44:26Z varjag: frodef``: hi, long time!
2021-01-04T12:44:38Z varjag: phoe: i asked there to no reply
2021-01-04T12:45:01Z varjag: ralt: udp broatcast doesn't work on lw via usocket
2021-01-04T12:45:36Z varjag: couldn't find anything in lw comm api either
2021-01-04T12:46:14Z varjag: oh well guess that means setsockopt via ffi or something
2021-01-04T12:46:54Z ralt: Maybe the implementation provided sockets rather than USOCKET will be helpful
2021-01-04T12:47:06Z ralt: E.g. I think sbcl provides setsockopt
2021-01-04T12:47:19Z varjag: that's the comm api yeah
2021-01-04T12:47:32Z varjag: com
2021-01-04T12:48:12Z varjag: but you're right it exposes setsockopt
2021-01-04T12:49:17Z ralt: At worst you have SOCKINT:: that is exposing pretty much everything via cffi
2021-01-04T12:49:59Z ralt: (an sbcl internal package)
2021-01-04T12:51:08Z ralt: I had to use it recently to do ancillary data with sockets, SOCKINT was already providing unexported symbols for msghdr structures
2021-01-04T12:52:14Z docl_ is now known as docl
2021-01-04T12:53:44Z varjag: right well, am using lispworks here so it's comm:
2021-01-04T12:54:09Z ralt: Ah, sorry, I've never used lispworks.
2021-01-04T12:54:48Z varjag: usocket's way of broadcast works fine on ccl and sbcl i think, so there's no need to fiddle
2021-01-04T13:00:31Z a0 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T13:03:41Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-04T13:06:55Z uniminin joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:07:08Z uniminin quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-04T13:08:12Z uniminin joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:08:57Z uniminin quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-04T13:09:28Z uniminin joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:10:35Z uniminin quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-04T13:11:03Z uniminin joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:12:24Z uniminin quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-04T13:15:53Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:17:16Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:17:48Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:20:38Z SpaceIgor2075: Can I make executable fies with asdf?
2021-01-04T13:25:00Z SpaceIgor2075: * files
2021-01-04T13:25:15Z beach: There is a PROGRAM-OP in ASDF.
2021-01-04T13:25:25Z beach: But I suppose the Common Lisp implementation must allow it.
2021-01-04T13:25:48Z beach: It is explained in the ASDF manual.
2021-01-04T13:27:55Z SpaceIgor2075: Okay, thanks. Joining irc channels makes me forget that i can just rtfm indtead of asking basic questions :)
2021-01-04T13:29:21Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-04T13:29:31Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:31:01Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:31:53Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: check out Shinmera's Deploy
2021-01-04T13:32:01Z phoe: it makes making binaries easy, easier
2021-01-04T13:37:44Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:39:56Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T13:41:14Z ralt: SpaceIgor2075: if your target is linux, I (biasedly) recommend linux-packaging
2021-01-04T13:42:06Z ralt: https://gitlab.com/ralt/linux-packaging
2021-01-04T13:42:10Z makomo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T13:42:58Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:43:41Z flip214: SpaceIgor2075: also, UIOP has a function for that
2021-01-04T13:44:41Z ralt: `sbcl --eval '(asdf:make :foo)'` is what you're supposed to use
2021-01-04T13:47:18Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:51:39Z makomo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T13:55:33Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T13:56:08Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-04T13:56:30Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:57:10Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:57:42Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-04T13:59:36Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:16:27Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:20:23Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:21:37Z dim: now I am wondering if this linux-packaging tool could be used with pgloader...
2021-01-04T14:22:14Z SpaceIgor2075: It seems my project name was so complicated i typed it with typos and asdf didn'r work. Tip for the future: don't use project names that are too complex
2021-01-04T14:24:21Z rumpelszn quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.6+deb1ubuntu0.2 - http://znc.in)
2021-01-04T14:25:16Z shinohai: Interesting thread this morning, I've been looking into methods for producing binaries. linux-packaging tool looks neat but I just can't overcome my distaste for Docker to make it useful in my case.
2021-01-04T14:25:43Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T14:25:47Z dim: docker is quite nice for dev/test environments really
2021-01-04T14:26:05Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:26:13Z dim: for managing an easy to reproduce env to produce binaries, it looks pretty well suited for the task
2021-01-04T14:28:47Z shinohai: Producing actual *fully static* binary that will run irregardless of system still pipe dream I suppose.
2021-01-04T14:29:53Z frodef``: shinohai: what's the issue with Docker?
2021-01-04T14:31:04Z shinohai: frodef``: nothing I guess if that is one's bag.
2021-01-04T14:31:15Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T14:32:51Z SpaceIgo` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:32:52Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T14:32:55Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T14:35:43Z SpaceIgo` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T14:35:55Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:36:01Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:43:38Z ex_nihilo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:45:42Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T14:45:42Z selwyn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T14:45:54Z selwyn joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:46:17Z _whitelogger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T14:46:17Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T14:47:09Z jasom joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:47:14Z epony joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:48:15Z _whitelogger_ joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:49:09Z gxt quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-04T14:49:20Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-04T14:50:43Z SpaceIgor2075: Should i use :depends-on (#:CL) in my asdf:defsystem?
2021-01-04T14:51:10Z dyelar joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:51:27Z SpaceIgor2075: SBCL says ; Evaluation aborted on Component #:CL not found, required by #<SYSTEM
2021-01-04T14:51:36Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-04T14:51:46Z Bike: What would that indicate?
2021-01-04T14:51:59Z Bike: You're already writing your code in common lisp, right?
2021-01-04T14:52:48Z SpaceIgor2075: yes
2021-01-04T14:52:55Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:53:42Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:53:58Z SpaceIgor2075: Removed it and, finally, after 12 hours of tinkering, asdf:load-system works
2021-01-04T14:55:21Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:55:58Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:56:16Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:56:17Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-04T14:56:44Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-01-04T14:57:03Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T14:58:55Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-04T15:00:25Z SpaceIgor2075: Now I want to build an app
2021-01-04T15:00:53Z ggoes_ is now known as ggoes
2021-01-04T15:09:02Z ralt: shinohai: as I was saying in #sicl a few hours ago, I think sbcl recently got some fixes to work with musl, so static binaries might be possible now. Haven't played with it yet.
2021-01-04T15:10:29Z ralt: that said, you can already do some pretty cool stuff like statically linking sqlite https://gitlab.com/ralt/ballish/-/blob/master/ballish.asd#L12
2021-01-04T15:12:03Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T15:12:11Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: there is no CL system
2021-01-04T15:12:12Z shinohai: ralt: oh neat, didn't know sbcl got some musl fixes, ~year ago I managed to get 1.5.7 patched together to work on musl system, still using it.
2021-01-04T15:12:18Z phoe: there is only a CL package
2021-01-04T15:12:47Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T15:15:08Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-04T15:20:23Z sjl_ joined #lisp
2021-01-04T15:22:08Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: should i mention it anywhere?
2021-01-04T15:23:08Z phoe: yes, in your DEFPACKAGEs
2021-01-04T15:23:21Z phoe: unless you want to explicitly qualify all CL symbols, which would be... weird
2021-01-04T15:30:38Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-04T15:31:41Z SpaceIgor2075: Is there a builtin way to make executables in clisp, like sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die in sbcl?
2021-01-04T15:33:52Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/blob/master/uiop/image.lisp#L364-373
2021-01-04T15:33:56Z phoe: that's what ASDF tells me
2021-01-04T15:34:35Z nicktick quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-04T15:35:07Z phoe: possibly you don't want this low-level functionality though
2021-01-04T15:35:18Z phoe: why not just asdf:make? I think it was suggested above
2021-01-04T15:36:17Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-04T15:37:07Z ralt: actually, here is the recommendation: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/doc/best_practices.md#delivering-an-executable
2021-01-04T15:47:46Z sjl_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3-dev)
2021-01-04T15:52:47Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-04T15:54:48Z vhost- joined #lisp
2021-01-04T15:55:00Z SpaceIgor2075: Will (defsystem "foobar/executable"
2021-01-04T15:55:00Z SpaceIgor2075:   :build-operation program-op
2021-01-04T15:55:00Z SpaceIgor2075:   :build-pathname "foobar-command" ;; shell name
2021-01-04T15:55:00Z SpaceIgor2075:   :entry-point "foobar::start-foobar" ;; thunk
2021-01-04T15:55:03Z SpaceIgor2075:   :depends-on ("foobar")
2021-01-04T15:55:06Z SpaceIgor2075:   :components ((:file "main"))) inherit components and dependencies of foobar?
2021-01-04T15:55:36Z phoe: please use pastebin for larger code blocks
2021-01-04T15:55:53Z phoe: also, what do you mean, components and depenencies? this will require foobar to be loaded before this is system is loaded
2021-01-04T15:56:09Z phoe: and loading foobar requires its dependencies to be loaded, and then its components to be compiled and loaded, too
2021-01-04T15:56:28Z phoe: so I guess, yes... but I wonder why you need a separate system for building executables
2021-01-04T15:56:53Z phoe: I guess that build-operation, built-pathname, entry-point can all be specified in foobar itself, unless you have other issues
2021-01-04T15:58:18Z tyson2 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T16:03:11Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T16:03:12Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-04T16:05:02Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-04T16:05:24Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T16:06:13Z SpaceIgor2075: It works. I'm so happy. Are there newbie guides on doing stuff with a lisp program while it runs in slime?
2021-01-04T16:06:18Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T16:06:38Z SpaceIgor2075: I've heard a lot about this "interactive development" thing
2021-01-04T16:07:00Z Xach: SpaceIgor2075: i find it helps to think of the lisp program as a thing to which you connect, and which you extend incrementally with new functions, types, data, etc.
2021-01-04T16:07:16Z jonas[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T16:07:58Z Xach: it's not something you design, start, it runs and completes, and you think about what you want different for the next time.
2021-01-04T16:08:32Z Xach: start, design, add pieces, run pieces, design, add more pieces, run more pieces, design, etc
2021-01-04T16:09:23Z SpaceIgor2075: i understand, i just want to see some explanations and examples
2021-01-04T16:10:07Z Xach: Hmm, I'm not sure what might be available, sorry. I think the SLIME video might have some examples (it's pretty old but the concepts are not outdated)
2021-01-04T16:10:21Z phoe: Baggers' Little Bits of Lisp
2021-01-04T16:10:24Z Xach: I think Rainer Joswig has some videos using LispWorks
2021-01-04T16:10:27Z Xach: That's a good option too!
2021-01-04T16:12:54Z tyson2: I am using the free book Practical Common Lisp, which uses sbcl and slime by default, seems to work well.  Just set up Slime a couple of weeks ago.
2021-01-04T16:13:09Z tyson2: (although I did it a few years ago and gave up).
2021-01-04T16:14:44Z SpaceIgor2075: I'm talking about this thing: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/#s16-lisp-as-a-system
2021-01-04T16:15:18Z phoe: edit a code snippet and hit C-c C-c in a lisp buffer
2021-01-04T16:15:26Z phoe: bam, it's evaluated in the Lisp image
2021-01-04T16:15:34Z Xach: you have taught lisp a thing
2021-01-04T16:15:41Z phoe: it might have defined or redefined a function/variable/macro/class/whatever
2021-01-04T16:15:55Z phoe: rinse, repeat a few thousand times, and you'll have a working decently-sized program
2021-01-04T16:18:49Z SpaceIgor2075: Xach, phoe: Thanks! Now, finally, after a week of messing with emacs, slime, sbcl and cl i can start trying to make my tiny game
2021-01-04T16:20:01Z phoe: I hope you are aware about #lispgames
2021-01-04T16:21:02Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-04T16:21:55Z frgo quit
2021-01-04T16:21:58Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: Oh, i should join it!
2021-01-04T16:22:48Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-04T16:25:32Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Eclector/tree/documentation-listings and https://github.com/sharplispers/linedit/tree/syntax-highlighting should be enough to try the syntax highlighting stuff
2021-01-04T16:25:34Z frodef`` is now known as frodef
2021-01-04T16:26:07Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: i didn't manage to clean up as much as i wanted so all of this is subject to change
2021-01-04T16:31:07Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6)
2021-01-04T16:31:37Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-04T16:31:54Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T16:34:19Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-04T16:38:42Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-04T16:39:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T16:39:26Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T16:42:47Z jw4 quit (Quit: tot siens)
2021-01-04T16:46:18Z jw4 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T16:51:43Z tyson2 left #lisp
2021-01-04T16:53:16Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T16:55:50Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T17:04:52Z alexcutie joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:06:49Z rtoy quit (Quit: rtoy)
2021-01-04T17:12:14Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-04T17:14:39Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:28:22Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-04T17:28:41Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:28:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-04T17:35:45Z SpaceIgo` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:35:46Z ex_nihilo_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-04T17:38:14Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T17:41:28Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:42:25Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-04T17:42:55Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-04T17:43:13Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:43:37Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T17:43:56Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:47:07Z aartaka_d is now known as aartaka
2021-01-04T17:48:18Z Cthulhux` quit (Changing host)
2021-01-04T17:48:18Z Cthulhux` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:48:38Z SpaceIgo` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T17:48:58Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:52:03Z rixard joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:52:48Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-04T17:53:03Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:54:52Z matryoshka` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:54:55Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T17:56:34Z matryoshka` quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T17:56:53Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:57:02Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:57:02Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-04T17:57:02Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:58:22Z matryoshka` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T17:58:28Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T18:00:10Z matryoshka` quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T18:00:33Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T18:12:58Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T18:14:32Z kingcons` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T18:22:09Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-04T18:22:51Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T18:23:37Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-04T18:23:51Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T18:25:25Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T18:34:03Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-04T18:34:35Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-04T18:40:07Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-04T18:42:31Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T18:45:23Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-04T18:53:56Z Xach: SpaceIgor2075: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25627491 has some nice links
2021-01-04T18:55:00Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-04T18:55:31Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: I do some livecoding in a video that comes live tomorrow at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkqQq2Hwt5o
2021-01-04T18:55:33Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-04T18:57:46Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-04T18:58:13Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-04T18:59:39Z lonjil2 is now known as lonjil
2021-01-04T18:59:40Z VincentVega: is there some placeholder symbol which wouldn't give the unused warnings in functions? is "-" ok?
2021-01-04T18:59:45Z phoe: no
2021-01-04T18:59:55Z phoe: you need to explicitly ignore unused variables
2021-01-04T19:00:08Z Xach: the only exception is in LOOP destructuring.
2021-01-04T19:00:16Z phoe: and using - as a variable name will not do what you might expect
2021-01-04T19:00:27Z VincentVega: hmm alright
2021-01-04T19:00:36Z Xach: (and maybe method lambda lists - specializing on t...)
2021-01-04T19:00:42Z flip214: VincentVega: that's on my wish list as well
2021-01-04T19:01:29Z VincentVega: ok I see : ) will be using, i don't know, underscores then? or *?
2021-01-04T19:02:03Z VincentVega: guess it won't matter much
2021-01-04T19:02:27Z phoe: don't use *
2021-01-04T19:02:32Z phoe: it also won't do what you think
2021-01-04T19:02:44Z VincentVega: what does it do?
2021-01-04T19:02:47Z phoe: if anything, give the meaningful names and then ignore them
2021-01-04T19:02:52Z phoe: * is a REPL variable, just like -
2021-01-04T19:02:56Z VincentVega: oh
2021-01-04T19:03:02Z VincentVega: ok then
2021-01-04T19:03:11Z phoe: it's a dynamic variable, meaning that if you name a function argument with that symbol, it'll audorebind it
2021-01-04T19:03:20Z VincentVega: gotcha
2021-01-04T19:03:22Z phoe: autorebind*
2021-01-04T19:03:31Z VincentVega: thanks for the heads up : )
2021-01-04T19:03:37Z phoe: also, meaningful variable names are good for completions
2021-01-04T19:03:52Z VincentVega: makes sense
2021-01-04T19:03:53Z phoe: e.g. when you see the lambda list of a function in slime minibuffer
2021-01-04T19:04:10Z phoe: so, (defun frobnicate (foo bar baz) (declare (ignore foo baz)) ...) is what I consider the best
2021-01-04T19:04:23Z phoe: because then argument names are available for introspection
2021-01-04T19:04:29Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-04T19:04:48Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:05:00Z VincentVega: I see. Thanks, phoe!
2021-01-04T19:05:59Z phoe: and when you decide to actually use the arguments in your function body, you need to modify only the ignore declarations.
2021-01-04T19:07:01Z VincentVega: ok, yeah
2021-01-04T19:08:38Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T19:08:58Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:09:03Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T19:10:22Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T19:13:10Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T19:13:29Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:14:25Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T19:14:48Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:18:55Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-04T19:19:14Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:19:20Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T19:20:18Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:20:57Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:21:08Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-04T19:21:27Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:22:22Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:23:01Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T19:23:14Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:23:21Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T19:23:39Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:24:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T19:25:06Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:27:13Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T19:27:52Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T19:27:58Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T19:28:12Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:30:08Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T19:30:29Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:30:44Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:32:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T19:32:02Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T19:32:56Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:33:09Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T19:33:33Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:33:40Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:33:48Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T19:34:15Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:35:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T19:35:55Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T19:36:15Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:39:00Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:43:42Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:48:07Z zmagii_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-04T19:48:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T19:48:58Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:51:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T19:52:19Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:53:22Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:54:54Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T19:55:15Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:55:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T19:55:44Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:56:55Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T19:56:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T19:57:14Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:57:41Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:57:49Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T19:58:38Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-04T19:59:31Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T19:59:53Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:00:29Z zmagii joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:00:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T20:01:16Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:03:50Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-04T20:04:06Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:05:50Z matryoshka` joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:05:56Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T20:07:43Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:12:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T20:13:40Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:17:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T20:18:15Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:18:33Z aeth: VincentVega: You can write a macro which replaces each _ with a new gensym, saves those gensyms into a list, and then adds an implicit (declare (ignore ,@gensym-list)) at the start.
2021-01-04T20:19:17Z aeth: I'm not sure if it would be useful enough to be worth the (minimal) effort, though.
2021-01-04T20:20:09Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:20:10Z heisig quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T20:20:18Z aeth: It might be useful for certain advanced macros that might do actions on otherwise-ignored things, where it could instead do (declare (ignorable ,@gensym-list)) instead.
2021-01-04T20:20:55Z aeth: (i.e. it's not used in the user code, and it may or may not trigger the macro processing that uses it in the macro's code)
2021-01-04T20:21:18Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T20:23:32Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-04T20:23:46Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T20:24:10Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:24:11Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:24:18Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T20:24:32Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:30:00Z VincentVega: aeth: I see what you mean. I don't have macro code needing that yet, but i will keep this possibilityin mind!
2021-01-04T20:33:41Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-04T20:33:56Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:35:19Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T20:35:31Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:41:22Z phoe: okay, tomorrow at 18:00 CET is the official premiere of this Common Lisp video. https://www.47deg.com/academy/2021-01-05-immutable-conversations-common-lisp/
2021-01-04T20:41:30Z phoe: I'll be on YT chat and answer some questions there
2021-01-04T20:41:49Z phoe: and then possibly invite some people to #lispcafe if they have more questions.
2021-01-04T20:43:23Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T20:43:47Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:49:28Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:51:49Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T20:52:03Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:53:01Z aorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T20:57:33Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T20:57:52Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:58:04Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T20:58:14Z Steeve quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T20:58:25Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T20:59:06Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-04T20:59:50Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T20:59:58Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-04T21:00:40Z jw4 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T21:01:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T21:02:46Z miasuji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T21:03:00Z ralt: Just putting this here, sorry if it's a bit spammy, but I think it's relevant. https://twitter.com/Crell/status/1346198039409647616
2021-01-04T21:03:14Z ralt: Disclaimer: I work there.
2021-01-04T21:03:22Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T21:03:40Z phoe: hm
2021-01-04T21:03:50Z phoe: maybe you could try and pitch that to #common-lisp.net
2021-01-04T21:03:50Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-04T21:04:05Z phoe: I think they could be interested, I don't know how much hosting they have
2021-01-04T21:04:43Z ralt: I don't want to be more spammy than necessary, that's a fyi, if the people lurk around in #lisp they'll see it
2021-01-04T21:04:53Z phoe: gendl: easye: ^
2021-01-04T21:04:55Z phoe: okie then
2021-01-04T21:05:11Z ralt: thanks
2021-01-04T21:06:00Z phoe: thanks as well
2021-01-04T21:10:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T21:15:53Z msk joined #lisp
2021-01-04T21:17:25Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-04T21:23:12Z Steeve quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T21:23:36Z frodef quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T21:25:41Z Bahman joined #lisp
2021-01-04T21:26:00Z Bahman quit (Quit: ave atque vale)
2021-01-04T21:26:24Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-04T21:26:47Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-04T21:29:40Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T21:30:04Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T21:32:08Z Steeve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T21:32:15Z adam4567 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T21:34:59Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-04T21:35:29Z Bahman joined #lisp
2021-01-04T21:38:41Z VincentVega quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T21:40:24Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-04T21:43:56Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-04T21:48:08Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-04T21:49:02Z ech left #lisp
2021-01-04T21:49:25Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-04T21:53:59Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T21:55:26Z shifty quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T21:55:44Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-04T21:56:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T21:57:11Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T21:59:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-04T21:59:52Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T22:01:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-04T22:02:11Z deltab quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-04T22:08:28Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-04T22:10:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: scymtym: thanks
2021-01-04T22:10:39Z deltab joined #lisp
2021-01-04T22:11:17Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-04T22:12:27Z ralt: exciting https://pastebin.com/43kuYPRk
2021-01-04T22:19:10Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-04T22:21:47Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T22:23:02Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-04T22:24:09Z phoe: ralt: !!
2021-01-04T22:24:15Z phoe: you managed to link SBCL against musl?
2021-01-04T22:24:48Z ralt: I believe I did
2021-01-04T22:24:57Z phoe: does the test suite pass?
2021-01-04T22:25:03Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T22:25:17Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-04T22:25:50Z ralt: haven't tried it yet
2021-01-04T22:26:53Z ralt: do they take a long time to run?
2021-01-04T22:26:55Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-04T22:27:02Z phoe: not really?
2021-01-04T22:27:20Z phoe: some of them run while SBCL is getting built
2021-01-04T22:27:23Z ralt: hm, can't compile osicat
2021-01-04T22:27:46Z ralt: getting this issue https://github.com/osicat/osicat/issues/19
2021-01-04T22:27:59Z ralt: sbcl tests are running
2021-01-04T22:28:29Z ralt: so far it's not crashing
2021-01-04T22:31:12Z phoe: it'll produce a report at the end
2021-01-04T22:31:18Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T22:31:52Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp
2021-01-04T22:35:42Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-04T22:37:08Z ralt: tests are still running, found this error when trying to boot sly in the meantime https://pastebin.com/0Nzw92yB
2021-01-04T22:37:09Z ralt: not cool
2021-01-04T22:39:18Z phoe: upgrade sly
2021-01-04T22:39:32Z phoe: %code-entry-points was removed from recent SBCL
2021-01-04T22:39:37Z ralt: oh.
2021-01-04T22:39:39Z phoe: and that broke several systems that depended on it
2021-01-04T22:39:44Z phoe: despite it being an internal symbol
2021-01-04T22:39:52Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-04T22:39:57Z ralt: cool, it's not musl then
2021-01-04T22:40:43Z ralt: well, to be fair, it was an exported symbol
2021-01-04T22:40:59Z phoe: but with a %
2021-01-04T22:41:01Z ralt: but I guess lisp doesn't really have the concept of "exported for a subset of other packages"
2021-01-04T22:41:22Z ralt: like "exported within this system" or something
2021-01-04T22:41:29Z phoe: nope, not really
2021-01-04T22:41:41Z ralt: that would be something I'd use quite often, given that I use package-inferred systems
2021-01-04T22:41:42Z phoe: but still, % is one of ways of saying "don't use this because things may break"
2021-01-04T22:41:51Z ralt: yeah, that's fair
2021-01-04T22:45:52Z okflo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-04T22:46:11Z Krystof: it was an exported symbol from a package documented as "private"
2021-01-04T22:47:12Z ralt: it appears to be not too bad https://pastebin.com/Yvt1Kxtv
2021-01-04T22:47:31Z ralt: the 2 failures are because `dlsym()` is missing, I believe
2021-01-04T22:48:00Z Krystof: cool, that's a very good failure report.
2021-01-04T22:48:34Z ralt: what's dlsym() used for? CFFI?
2021-01-04T22:49:46Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T22:51:13Z flazh1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T22:52:00Z phoe: musl does seem to have dlsym() though...
2021-01-04T22:55:37Z cognemo quit (Quit: cognemo)
2021-01-04T22:55:59Z cognemo joined #lisp
2021-01-04T22:56:26Z matryoshka` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T22:57:39Z flazh1 joined #lisp
2021-01-04T22:58:17Z Krystof: ralt: foreign calls
2021-01-04T22:58:36Z Krystof: wait, I'm sure you are passing many calls requiring dlsym
2021-01-04T22:59:02Z Krystof: the two tests that fail are things that might invoke compilers or linkers -- maybe they need adjusting for musl somehow?
2021-01-04T22:59:14Z Krystof: (must go to bed, sorry.  Good luck!)
2021-01-04T22:59:42Z ralt: https://pastebin.com/Kih6MMwK
2021-01-04T23:02:27Z ralt: no worries, good night
2021-01-04T23:10:45Z fe[nl]ix: ralt: it seems that the feature test tools-for-build/os-provides-dlopen-test.c fails somehow
2021-01-04T23:10:58Z fe[nl]ix: try compiling and running that under musl
2021-01-04T23:11:44Z ralt: fe[nl]ix: exits with code 104
2021-01-04T23:12:05Z ralt: it does compile, though
2021-01-04T23:14:18Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-04T23:16:02Z ralt: dlerror() returns null...
2021-01-04T23:16:29Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-04T23:16:55Z ralt: I don't understand how it's supposed to run
2021-01-04T23:17:13Z ralt: it returns exit code 104 if... dlsym() returns a good pointer?
2021-01-04T23:21:49Z ralt: anyway, for another day.
2021-01-04T23:22:26Z etimmons: ralt: I helped get the musl support merged back in 2.0.5. and have been using it successfully since
2021-01-04T23:23:13Z ralt: etimmons: thanks a lot!
2021-01-04T23:23:22Z etimmons: But I haven't run the full test suite on musl in a while (currently doing that). Wouldn't surprise me if it's a bug in the test
2021-01-04T23:23:48Z ralt: I'm playing with it to generate a static binary, a bit unsuccessfully so far, but linkers are finicky beasts :)
2021-01-04T23:24:11Z etimmons: Coincidentally I also have a set of patches to make static executables with musl. I sent some early versions to sbcl-devel a while back, but they didn't get traction
2021-01-04T23:24:42Z ralt: do you need a static sbcl to build a static dumped image?
2021-01-04T23:25:01Z ralt: either way, I'm very interested, could you point me to those?
2021-01-04T23:25:01Z etimmons: I was literally in the middle of doing a little writeup on how to actually make a static executable when I paged over here and saw the discussion
2021-01-04T23:25:08Z ralt: ha
2021-01-04T23:25:17Z ralt: amazing :)
2021-01-04T23:25:22Z etimmons: Will drop a pointer in here when it's up.
2021-01-04T23:26:55Z etimmons: There are really two ways to do it. There's supposedly a way to do it with the static shrinkwrapping recipe in the SBCL repo, but that does some low level assembly stuff and currently only works on amd64.
2021-01-04T23:27:50Z etimmons: I have also yet to get a good explanation from Doug Katzman on how to get rid of the requirement on libdl with that route (but it seems he/Google has a way)
2021-01-04T23:28:50Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-04T23:29:07Z etimmons: The second route is with my patches. They should work on any arch, but require two compilations of your code: one with a dynamic SBCL to record the needed foreign symbols, and then one with a static SBCL to dump the final executable
2021-01-04T23:30:32Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-04T23:30:53Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-04T23:31:13Z ralt: etimmons: can't you use the /usr/lib/sbcl.o file for the foreign symbols?
2021-01-04T23:31:26Z ralt: I meant /usr/lib/sbcl/sbcl.o, sorry
2021-01-04T23:31:49Z ralt: or is that the shrinkwrapping recipe?
2021-01-04T23:32:29Z ralt: are you aware of the --with-linkable-runtime option, and the generated sbcl.mk?
2021-01-04T23:33:47Z etimmons: Yes, I'm aware of that. I had some nasty recipes in the past that used that as a starting point.
2021-01-04T23:34:53Z etimmons: The issue is SBCL's linkage table. It records all the C addresses of the foreign symbols and uses dlopen/dlsym at runtime to populate it.
2021-01-04T23:35:17Z phoe: https://twitter.com/peterseibel/status/1346226308506796034
2021-01-04T23:35:21Z phoe: that's an important tweet
2021-01-04T23:35:34Z etimmons: I'm sure you could get the symbols needed for SBCL's runtime from sbcl.o, but that won't tell you what user code needs (if it uses CFFI)
2021-01-04T23:37:09Z ralt: Ok, I'll wait for your write-up then
2021-01-04T23:37:57Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-04T23:38:03Z etimmons: The shrinkwrapping recipe rewrites a core so that the system's dynamic linker populates the linkage table for SBCL at runtime. My set of patches instead generates a C file that needs to be compiled into the core. That's how I get away with doing this knowing ~zero assembly
2021-01-04T23:38:21Z etimmons: s/into the core/into the runtime/
2021-01-04T23:39:57Z ralt: phoe: what's "multi images"? https://mobile.twitter.com/peterseibel/status/1346226308506796034
2021-01-04T23:40:50Z no-defun-allowed: "multi image" would be running programs on multiple computers.
2021-01-04T23:41:22Z ralt: Sorry, I meant https://mobile.twitter.com/tapoueh/status/1346231966744649733
2021-01-04T23:41:51Z phoe: likely what no-defun-allowed meant: swank-crew, lfarm?
2021-01-04T23:42:02Z ralt: no-defun-allowed: is there some existing stuff for this besides netfarm?
2021-01-04T23:42:22Z no-defun-allowed: As phoe already said.
2021-01-04T23:42:27Z etimmons: ralt: shameless self plug; if you're into Docker I maintain a set of Docker images for SBCL, including Alpine based ones. They used to be at daewok/sbcl, but I'm working with the CLF to move them to a more community owned space for longevity.
2021-01-04T23:42:36Z etimmons: Beta is up at clfoundation/sbcl
2021-01-04T23:42:52Z no-defun-allowed: Netfarm is for mostly-untrusted replicated object storage, and you do not want to use it for distributed computation. You want something more like lfarm for computing.
2021-01-04T23:43:07Z ralt: etimmons: you're daewok? I've used your images before :)
2021-01-04T23:43:21Z etimmons: indeed!
2021-01-04T23:43:40Z no-defun-allowed: Hey, same, the GitLab CI stuff aeth and I use uses daewok/lisp or something like that.
2021-01-04T23:43:51Z scymtym: phoe: interesting news indeed. i don't have a working twitter account, but i would suggest hyperlinking and syntax highlighting as in this example: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/pcl-highlighting-example/12-they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html
2021-01-04T23:43:59Z ralt: etimmons: you might be interested in https://gitlab.com/ralt/linux-packaging
2021-01-04T23:45:02Z phoe: scymtym: message passed
2021-01-04T23:45:02Z ralt: no-defun-allowed: I want a cloud-hosted mainframe in Lisp
2021-01-04T23:45:36Z scymtym: phoe: thanks
2021-01-04T23:46:14Z etimmons: ralt: Nice, I'll take a look at that after dinner
2021-01-04T23:46:25Z no-defun-allowed: ralt: I seriously don't give a fuck, and I hope you don't act on that desire.
2021-01-04T23:47:16Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-04T23:47:30Z no-defun-allowed: Please ignore the former half of that, I did not mean to say that.
2021-01-04T23:47:31Z ralt: etimmons: anyway, I'm going away now, please look at your PMs, I sent you my email because I'll disconnect from irc, I really want static binaries :P
2021-01-04T23:47:45Z no-defun-allowed: But we don't need more centralisation in this world.
2021-01-04T23:48:07Z no-defun-allowed: I suppose I'll head out, before I say something else that's stupid.
2021-01-04T23:48:10Z no-defun-allowed left #lisp
2021-01-04T23:48:16Z ralt: no-defun-allowed: by mainframe, I mean a "lisp process" that never dies, no matter what the underlying hardware does
2021-01-04T23:48:19Z ralt: Welp.
2021-01-04T23:52:25Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-04T23:58:02Z tessier joined #lisp
2021-01-04T23:58:02Z tessier quit (Changing host)
2021-01-04T23:58:02Z tessier joined #lisp
2021-01-05T00:06:09Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T00:10:38Z VincentVega quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T00:17:27Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-05T00:21:02Z karlosz quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-05T00:30:01Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-05T00:33:38Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T00:34:01Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-05T00:36:58Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-05T00:38:30Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-05T00:40:01Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-05T00:48:04Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T00:53:47Z buoy49 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T00:57:19Z buoy49 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T01:01:01Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-05T01:01:25Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T01:02:17Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T01:03:57Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-05T01:06:41Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-05T01:08:42Z kingcons` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T01:11:55Z kingcons` joined #lisp
2021-01-05T01:16:43Z kingcons` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T01:16:49Z kingcons` joined #lisp
2021-01-05T01:20:53Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T01:21:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: ralt: that sort of distributed system would be pretty useful
2021-01-05T01:23:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: ralt: I managed to get sbcl to generate static binaries
2021-01-05T01:24:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: If amd64/linux is good enough for you, it's not all that hard
2021-01-05T01:24:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: You have to build sbcl like this: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/sbcl-workspace/blob/master/setup/build
2021-01-05T01:25:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then this will do the rest: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/daydreamer/blob/master/build.lisp
2021-01-05T01:26:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: The only problem is that certain libraries insist on causing problems here: I go out of my way to avoid depending on osicat because of this
2021-01-05T01:26:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, patch it something like this: https://gitlab.com/fiddlerwoaroof/osicat/-/commit/b56f924c5dafa92e6da1f2a91a6b7f133cbd69fa
2021-01-05T01:28:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: This also needs this patch to CFFI: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/136
2021-01-05T01:29:05Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-05T01:30:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T01:33:31Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-05T01:34:19Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T01:39:03Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-05T01:40:05Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T01:40:51Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-05T01:41:26Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-05T01:44:52Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T01:46:22Z froggey joined #lisp
2021-01-05T01:46:37Z kingcons` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T01:49:35Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-05T02:00:54Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T02:01:12Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T02:01:49Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-05T02:02:48Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T02:06:47Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-05T02:13:26Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-05T02:13:35Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-05T02:18:31Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T02:19:55Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-05T02:20:29Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T02:21:13Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-05T02:24:41Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-05T02:29:23Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-05T02:31:04Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-05T02:31:20Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-05T02:31:47Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T02:34:48Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T02:43:56Z semz joined #lisp
2021-01-05T02:48:42Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-05T02:53:16Z Grue`` joined #lisp
2021-01-05T02:53:58Z mister_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T02:53:59Z himmAllRight quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T02:54:28Z Grue` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T02:55:16Z himmAllRight joined #lisp
2021-01-05T02:58:51Z thmprover joined #lisp
2021-01-05T03:12:09Z hsaziz joined #lisp
2021-01-05T03:20:19Z slyrus_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T03:21:23Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T03:22:49Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-05T03:24:28Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T03:26:44Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-05T03:28:30Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-05T03:29:06Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-05T03:32:16Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T03:42:26Z charles`: Does anyone else get a compile error on sbcl for defconstant after a image restart
2021-01-05T03:46:03Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-05T03:54:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: charles`: what does the error say?
2021-01-05T03:54:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: It sounds like a defconstant is being evaluated/compiled twice with values that aren't EQL
2021-01-05T03:56:15Z charles`: Yes it says constant NAME is being redefined from  "string" to "string". I know it happens when I try to reevaluate the defconstant, but It sometimes happens after I restart the image
2021-01-05T03:59:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: It sounds like your startup sequence is evaluating a defconstant twice, but you aren't really providing enough context
2021-01-05T04:02:34Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T04:05:15Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-05T04:05:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-05T04:06:49Z charles`: It is strange because it only happens sometimes
2021-01-05T04:06:56Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T04:07:41Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T04:10:26Z frost-lab joined #lisp
2021-01-05T04:10:38Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-05T04:10:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach!
2021-01-05T04:11:42Z vutral joined #lisp
2021-01-05T04:15:02Z _whitelogger_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T04:17:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-05T04:20:17Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T04:20:42Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T04:27:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T04:33:24Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-05T04:37:17Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-05T04:38:47Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-05T04:51:36Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T04:59:01Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T05:00:13Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T05:00:58Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-05T05:08:10Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T05:09:05Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-05T05:11:20Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-05T05:16:21Z thmprover quit (Quit: ...and miles to go before I sleep.)
2021-01-05T05:18:57Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T05:24:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T05:24:54Z phoe6 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T05:26:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-05T05:49:28Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T05:51:45Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-05T05:59:48Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-05T06:03:54Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-05T06:04:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T06:04:45Z shifty joined #lisp
2021-01-05T06:05:07Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T06:09:17Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-05T06:09:23Z luckless quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-05T06:10:00Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T06:10:24Z luckless quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-05T06:11:04Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T06:16:58Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T06:21:06Z vutral quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-05T06:22:08Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-05T06:22:16Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-05T06:24:10Z marusich quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-05T06:25:40Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-05T06:28:54Z marusich joined #lisp
2021-01-05T06:35:52Z abhixec_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T06:37:04Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T06:39:53Z abhixec_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-05T06:45:30Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T06:48:20Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-05T06:49:57Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T06:53:56Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-05T06:54:34Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T06:58:37Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-05T07:00:49Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-05T07:01:33Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-05T07:06:21Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-05T07:06:26Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-05T07:12:45Z hsaziz quit (Quit: hsaziz)
2021-01-05T07:15:39Z dvdmuckle quit (Quit: Bouncer Surgery)
2021-01-05T07:19:12Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-05T07:20:20Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp
2021-01-05T07:20:21Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T07:28:27Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T07:30:55Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: are you sure this ends up building a static binary?
2021-01-05T07:33:49Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T07:34:09Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-05T07:34:25Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-05T07:36:41Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T07:46:59Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-05T07:52:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's the point of ASDF's static-program-op
2021-01-05T07:52:41Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T07:52:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sorry, CFFI's
2021-01-05T07:55:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I guess it's not completely statically linked
2021-01-05T08:05:08Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T08:05:26Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-05T08:08:07Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T08:08:39Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: right. See linux-packaging for something that uses static-program-op, with osicat that is statically linked as well.
2021-01-05T08:09:00Z ralt: What I'm playing with is linking sbcl to musl in order to get a full static binary.
2021-01-05T08:09:46Z ralt: But etimmons is basically 3 steps ahead of me.
2021-01-05T08:16:36Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-05T08:24:02Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-05T08:25:30Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T08:25:56Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-05T08:29:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T08:45:56Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-05T08:46:44Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T08:49:42Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-05T08:51:23Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-05T08:52:41Z flip214: drmeister: at the end of https://drmeister.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/debugging-with-the-clasp-debugger/ you talk about generating dwarf data, but I can't find a follow-up post.
2021-01-05T08:53:44Z flip214: I'd like to generate dwarf output for function start/end addresses in SBCL, so that perf can report the stack correctly
2021-01-05T08:56:53Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-05T08:57:56Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T08:57:59Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:06:27Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:06:34Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:06:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T09:07:01Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T09:07:36Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T09:13:18Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:14:38Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:15:56Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:20:08Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T09:20:26Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:21:25Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:24:44Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:24:47Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T09:26:15Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie)
2021-01-05T09:26:27Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:27:36Z amirouche quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T09:28:36Z amirouche joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:28:39Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-05T09:29:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:31:01Z vaporatorius__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T09:31:20Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:32:19Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-05T09:33:16Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:38:10Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:39:18Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-05T09:49:39Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T10:01:21Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:05:53Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:06:27Z dhil joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:06:47Z jonathan| quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T10:07:50Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T10:07:57Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T10:08:15Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:10:55Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T10:12:37Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T10:19:24Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:31:12Z beaky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T10:32:18Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T10:32:33Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:32:45Z beaky joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:34:20Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:36:52Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T10:41:44Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-05T10:41:50Z jonathan| joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:42:20Z ralt: etimmons: I managed to build a static binary with musl but yeah, I'm back to the issue with the foreign symbols that your patch should help with.
2021-01-05T10:42:47Z ralt: one annoying thing is that sbcl recently stopped building the sbcl.o file with the _main symbol, though, so I had to build it manually.
2021-01-05T10:43:24Z ralt: otherwise I can get asdf:static-program-op to do most of the job for me.
2021-01-05T10:43:51Z ralt: (build it manually = cd src/runtime && make sbcl.o)
2021-01-05T10:44:24Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:46:22Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:46:48Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:52:32Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:53:25Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T10:53:57Z beaky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T10:55:30Z beaky joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:56:30Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-05T10:57:07Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T11:01:57Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:03:43Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:04:34Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T11:07:59Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T11:11:25Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T11:11:49Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:13:50Z beaky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T11:16:34Z beaky joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:18:03Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T11:19:04Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:21:43Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T11:24:18Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:26:04Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T11:26:22Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:26:59Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T11:27:16Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:27:32Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:33:41Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T11:33:57Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:36:03Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T11:38:26Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T11:42:23Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:47:35Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:47:36Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:48:34Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T11:49:35Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T11:51:38Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-05T11:54:05Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:54:05Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-05T11:54:05Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-05T11:57:50Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-05T12:02:38Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-05T12:10:18Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T12:20:22Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T12:20:54Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T12:21:33Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T12:21:44Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-05T12:24:38Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-05T12:26:01Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T12:27:52Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T12:28:49Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-05T12:29:11Z scymtym_ is now known as scymtym
2021-01-05T12:33:03Z phoe6 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-05T12:44:39Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-05T12:45:06Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-05T12:46:16Z jonathan| quit (Quit: fBNC - https://bnc4free.com)
2021-01-05T12:49:07Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-05T12:52:07Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T12:53:53Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-05T13:02:37Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T13:05:15Z jonathan| joined #lisp
2021-01-05T13:11:25Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T13:16:33Z terpri joined #lisp
2021-01-05T13:18:22Z kaun_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T13:18:54Z pve: I've been trying out ccl over the past couple of days and have to say it's really nice how my code just works even though the compiler got switched out.
2021-01-05T13:22:01Z phoe: that's the power of compliance™
2021-01-05T13:22:07Z phoe: (and portability libraries)
2021-01-05T13:22:48Z pve: I mean I had my goat and rain dance drums ready to go
2021-01-05T13:25:55Z Xach: I always feel a little bad when an implementation's list of compliance variations covers basic, specified functionality rather than extensions.
2021-01-05T13:26:07Z Xach: like CLISP's REQUIRE malarkey
2021-01-05T13:26:42Z Xach: (I feel less bad when it's an acknowledged, possibly low-priority bug rather than intentional "we know better" issue)
2021-01-05T13:27:06Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-05T13:28:08Z pve: ccl's compile speed is also refreshingly snappy, which makes my ancient workstation happy
2021-01-05T13:29:31Z phoe: ccl has a very fast compiler compared to SBCL's
2021-01-05T13:29:43Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T13:29:44Z mfiano: Usually attributed to not as many optimizations
2021-01-05T13:30:53Z mfiano: Though, SBCL fails at are transitive move instructions that their
2021-01-05T13:30:57Z mfiano: oops
2021-01-05T13:31:18Z mfiano: SBCl fails at removing some transitive move operations due to their SSA optimizations not being that great
2021-01-05T13:33:57Z shka_: phoe: both sbcl and ccl compile at warp speed given my low standards
2021-01-05T13:34:08Z shka_: C++, not even once
2021-01-05T13:35:01Z shka_: the only CL implementation that compiles slowly is ECL, but the plot twist is that it is not even ECL that is being slow
2021-01-05T13:35:04Z shka_: it is the GCC
2021-01-05T13:35:12Z mfiano: Been writing some LLVM and never realized how much better it optimizes simple stuff than SBCL
2021-01-05T13:35:27Z shka_: and as a result, this can't be even fixed
2021-01-05T13:35:41Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-05T13:35:44Z shka_: mfiano: it really is!
2021-01-05T13:35:49Z shka_: but, at the same time
2021-01-05T13:36:03Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/9c265bbe40042f763dfc9de0fcdb89fe
2021-01-05T13:36:10Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T13:36:21Z mfiano: See B2, BE, etc? Those are transitive move instructions that SBCL fails to remove properly
2021-01-05T13:36:32Z shka_: current CPUs can execute crappy code rather quickly
2021-01-05T13:37:09Z shka_: so the practical difference between good compiler and not so good compiler is closer then you would think
2021-01-05T13:37:23Z shka_: it is there though
2021-01-05T13:37:45Z mfiano: Rather quickly, adn quickly make a large difference in my domain :)
2021-01-05T13:37:58Z shka_: same
2021-01-05T13:38:06Z shka_: but what can I do?
2021-01-05T13:38:26Z jackdaniel: ecl's bytecodes compiler is lightning fast :) the generated bytecode not so much (it is a single-pass compiler)
2021-01-05T13:38:52Z shka_: jackdaniel: yeah, nothing ECL can really do better
2021-01-05T13:39:23Z shka_: maybe faster interpreter? but i have no idea how to even do that
2021-01-05T13:39:35Z jackdaniel: well, that's not true -- there are some things that could improve ecl compilation speed
2021-01-05T13:39:43Z shka_: ooooh
2021-01-05T13:39:46Z shka_: ok :-)
2021-01-05T13:39:58Z jackdaniel: interpreter is reasonably fast, it is that the compiled bytecode is not optimized
2021-01-05T13:40:08Z shka_: ok, got it
2021-01-05T13:40:28Z shka_: what about the compilation speed?
2021-01-05T13:40:34Z jackdaniel: one way for improving the compilation speed would be using libgcc instead of going through files (but that would be very much compiler-specific)
2021-01-05T13:40:38Z shka_: is that a low hanging fruit or is it complicated?
2021-01-05T13:40:48Z shka_: ok, got it
2021-01-05T13:40:49Z jackdaniel: it is not a low hanging fruit
2021-01-05T13:41:52Z shka_: mfiano: i honestly suspect that clasp can eventually become a really quick lisp implementation
2021-01-05T13:42:28Z Bike: right now our compiler is much slower than sbcl's, tho.
2021-01-05T13:42:43Z phoe: shka_: faster in compilation speed or faster as in performance of generated code
2021-01-05T13:42:44Z mfiano: In time. Good compilers require development effort and lots of funding
2021-01-05T13:42:52Z Bike: llvm does not have compilation speed as a priority, because as you said, C++
2021-01-05T13:42:53Z mfiano: Sadly we are limited in bioth of those regards
2021-01-05T13:42:57Z shka_: phoe: performance of generated code
2021-01-05T13:43:55Z shka_: Bike: well, I am actually atypically tolerant for a long compilations
2021-01-05T13:44:40Z shka_: my first serious project took 1 hour to compile
2021-01-05T13:45:05Z shka_: workflow was like: start compiling, go for a jog
2021-01-05T13:45:22Z shka_: i was lean back then :P
2021-01-05T13:45:35Z mfiano: https://xkcd.com/303/
2021-01-05T13:46:20Z shka_: Bike: anyway, you can still single function compile?
2021-01-05T13:46:31Z Bike: what? like use cl:compile? sure
2021-01-05T13:46:39Z shka_: then i am fine
2021-01-05T13:46:44Z shka_: :-)
2021-01-05T13:46:57Z Bike: clasp is a Conforming Implementation(TM)
2021-01-05T13:47:07Z Bike: (mostly. there are some ansi test failures)
2021-01-05T13:47:27Z shka_: what about the current execution speeds?
2021-01-05T13:47:58Z Bike: we're working on it. karlosz and i have rewritten big chunks of cleavir and will be starting in on sbcl-type optimizations soon
2021-01-05T13:48:39Z shka_: super cool
2021-01-05T13:49:03Z shka_: well, good luck!
2021-01-05T13:49:24Z Bike: thank you
2021-01-05T13:57:49Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T14:05:54Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-05T14:19:47Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-05T14:20:21Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-05T14:21:38Z dhil quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T14:25:18Z ldbeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T14:25:43Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-05T14:25:54Z ldbeth: good evening
2021-01-05T14:26:11Z beach: Hello ldbeth.
2021-01-05T14:26:57Z dhil joined #lisp
2021-01-05T14:28:41Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T14:30:28Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-05T14:31:02Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T14:33:23Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-05T14:34:56Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-05T14:39:53Z surabax_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T14:39:53Z surabax_ is now known as amberglint
2021-01-05T14:44:01Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T14:46:48Z kaun_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T14:47:06Z kaun_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T14:51:02Z vhost- joined #lisp
2021-01-05T14:53:02Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-05T15:02:50Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-05T15:04:50Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T15:06:13Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T15:07:00Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-05T15:07:02Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-05T15:07:41Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-05T15:08:01Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T15:08:18Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T15:12:02Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T15:12:04Z andreyorst_ is now known as andreyorst
2021-01-05T15:12:58Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-05T15:16:40Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T15:17:08Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T15:19:42Z jmercouris: does this indentation look OK? http://dpaste.com/55H474NJ5
2021-01-05T15:19:48Z jmercouris: or should I move something up/down?
2021-01-05T15:20:04Z jmercouris: I'm never quite sure how to indent with-slots
2021-01-05T15:21:17Z bendersteed joined #lisp
2021-01-05T15:21:25Z beach: You should usually go for the indentation that Emacs+SLIME suggest.  But their suggestions are not always great.
2021-01-05T15:22:17Z beach: In this case, there is no reason to indent lines 2-5 by 2 positions compared to "gobject".
2021-01-05T15:22:38Z phoe: (incf beach)
2021-01-05T15:23:04Z beach: And you may be able to save space by moving the beginning of the list to the next line.
2021-01-05T15:23:20Z jmercouris: hm it looks different on my screen
2021-01-05T15:23:30Z jmercouris: on my screen the g in gobject and the m in minibuffer are aligned
2021-01-05T15:23:43Z jmercouris: but this is in fact what Emacs+SLIME has done
2021-01-05T15:23:54Z beach: On your screen when you view the URL?
2021-01-05T15:24:03Z jmercouris: viewing the URL looks how you describe
2021-01-05T15:24:08Z jmercouris: viewing in my buffer looks how I describe
2021-01-05T15:24:09Z beach: Maybe you are using TABs?
2021-01-05T15:24:12Z beach: Don't do that.
2021-01-05T15:24:16Z beach: I see.
2021-01-05T15:24:19Z jmercouris: I have tabs disabled...
2021-01-05T15:24:23Z jmercouris: or at least they are supposed to be...
2021-01-05T15:24:49Z travv0: is that top line led by 2 spaces in your buffer?
2021-01-05T15:25:35Z jmercouris: travv0: not sure what 'led' means in this context
2021-01-05T15:25:37Z beach: jmercouris: Not related to your indentation, but if you have a list of that many slots, I think you have a design problem in your software.
2021-01-05T15:25:50Z beach: jmercouris: Past tense of lead.
2021-01-05T15:25:54Z jmercouris: beach: it is within intialize-instance where I am creating all of the objects
2021-01-05T15:26:01Z jmercouris: that are referenced in the slots
2021-01-05T15:26:04Z travv0: jmercouris: i just meant, are there two spaces at the beginning of the line before the opening paren
2021-01-05T15:26:14Z jmercouris: travv0: yes, there are
2021-01-05T15:26:32Z travv0: there's the difference then, those got lost in the copy/paste but there are 2 extra spaces on the rest of the lines
2021-01-05T15:26:48Z jmercouris: aha...
2021-01-05T15:26:54Z travv0: mystery solved
2021-01-05T15:27:02Z beach: Good catch!
2021-01-05T15:27:10Z jmercouris: I've moved them to the subsequent line, looks better, thanks
2021-01-05T15:29:50Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-05T15:30:41Z pfdietz: Now boring into test input generators.  check-it;  are there others?
2021-01-05T15:31:55Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-05T15:37:05Z neirac joined #lisp
2021-01-05T15:37:37Z jmercouris: pfdietz: you mean like fuzzy testing input generators?
2021-01-05T15:42:14Z aeth: adding to what beach said, the auto-indent of Emacs+SLIME only really breaks in a few places ime
2021-01-05T15:43:12Z aeth: 1. advanced LOOP stuff (even with the added setting to make it indent loop properly), particularly with nested conditionals (usually, COND is better, but you do need to use LOOP's conditionals for optional COLLECT/etc. only on certain branches afaik)
2021-01-05T15:43:15Z mfiano: property testing
2021-01-05T15:43:15Z mfiano: pfdietz: cl-quickcheck is another
2021-01-05T15:43:36Z aeth: 2. custom macros (although I think you can extend it) that do certain things, particularly ones that try to behave like FLET (with its own, special indentation rules)
2021-01-05T15:43:59Z aeth: (usually just using &body instead of &rest or vice versa is good enough for the right indentation)
2021-01-05T15:44:10Z mfiano: Indentation breaks the most with SLIME/Sly's indentation "lossage"
2021-01-05T15:45:55Z shinohai: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/lisp/2021-01-05#28749487 <<< You're doing God's work here ralt :)
2021-01-05T15:46:11Z mfiano: Indentation codes are an extension of elisp's lisp-mode, and as such, indentation is only concerned with the operator's symbol-name, without package-name. As such, you may get the wrong indentation if you don't choose a macro name carefully for the state of your image.
2021-01-05T15:46:20Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T15:46:30Z mfiano: On Sly, you can use (slynk:print-indentation-lossage) to check the ambiguities. I'm not sure if SLIME offers a way
2021-01-05T15:47:49Z jmercouris: mfiano: I see, thanks for the information
2021-01-05T15:48:48Z phoe: I need to write an article that describes https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/e6d215d77148079799d2fc3253ef402b5d9ed4d7/contrib/slime-cl-indent.el#L684-L755 better
2021-01-05T15:48:53Z phoe: like, with generous examples
2021-01-05T15:48:56Z aeth: mfiano: So what you're saying is that the lazy way to get FLET-style indentation for an FLET-style macro without having to extend Emacs would be to call it YOUR-PACKAGE:FLET instead of something else? (-:
2021-01-05T15:49:23Z ralt: shinohai: nah, etimmons is
2021-01-05T15:49:27Z pfdietz: jmercouris:  yes, and also (if possible) test input reducer.
2021-01-05T15:49:32Z mfiano: I don't think that was what I was saying at all.
2021-01-05T15:49:52Z pfdietz: Something like a CL implementation of Python's Hypothesis would be very interesting.
2021-01-05T15:50:03Z ralt: shinohai: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/lisp/2021-01-04#28747858;
2021-01-05T15:50:51Z shinohai: ty for link, was just poring over logs because that convo caught attention.
2021-01-05T15:51:04Z shinohai: Guess I need to search the ml, I find that very interesting.
2021-01-05T15:51:30Z jmercouris: pfdietz: isn't the SBCL team using some sort of fuzzer?
2021-01-05T15:51:36Z jmercouris: pfdietz: you may be able to ask them
2021-01-05T15:51:55Z pfdietz: I'll be sure to ask myself about that :)
2021-01-05T15:52:14Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T15:52:15Z jmercouris: lol
2021-01-05T15:52:23Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-05T15:58:17Z mfiano: pfdietz: I once tried. The difficulty arises in reducing a generation down to the bare minimum, so you aren't presented with a failing test that is difficult to figure out why it failed.
2021-01-05T15:58:23Z mfiano: I should pick that up again...
2021-01-05T15:59:11Z beach: So here is the latest (still very incomplete) version of the paper about call-site optimization that I am planning to submit to ELS.  http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf
2021-01-05T15:59:21Z beach: But, as usual, I did things in the reverse order compared to what most researchers would do, i.e., I came up with the technique before studying what already exists.  And in fact, I still have no real idea what has been done in this domain, and I had to be told about how inline caches work.
2021-01-05T15:59:22Z beach: So if anybody knows some relevant existing techniques I should read about, please let me know.
2021-01-05T16:04:05Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T16:07:12Z rogersm_ quit
2021-01-05T16:07:23Z contrapunctus: Would anyone like to recommend a protobuf library here? https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl/issues/372
2021-01-05T16:11:07Z kaun_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T16:11:54Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-05T16:12:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:13:37Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-05T16:14:04Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:14:05Z kaun_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:17:20Z jw4 quit (Quit: tot siens)
2021-01-05T16:18:06Z jw4 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:19:32Z solideogloria[m] sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/ztSOnFcGjMiopdJoZlyJjwGm/message.txt >
2021-01-05T16:19:38Z solideogloria[m]: for some reason the prev-window function does not modify focus
2021-01-05T16:19:43Z solideogloria[m]: I can't figure out why
2021-01-05T16:19:56Z solideogloria[m]: it works when I don't use the function as you can see the commented code
2021-01-05T16:20:43Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:21:25Z davd33 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:21:54Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-05T16:22:11Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:22:21Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:23:29Z kaun_ left #lisp
2021-01-05T16:26:52Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T16:27:07Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:27:31Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-05T16:27:50Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:29:54Z isBEKaml joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:33:31Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T16:33:43Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:34:35Z beach: solideogloria[m]: I am not sure what your problem is, but do you want remarks on that code?
2021-01-05T16:34:47Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-05T16:35:18Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Oh, I think I see what you are asking.
2021-01-05T16:35:38Z beach: Setting focus inside prev-window will set the parameter of that function.
2021-01-05T16:35:53Z beach: solideogloria[m]: It works the same in almost all other programming languages.
2021-01-05T16:36:18Z beach: solideogloria[m]: But your code has other issues as well.
2021-01-05T16:36:56Z beach: To start with, you have a number of inexplicable blank lines.  It is unusual for Common Lisp code to have blank lines inside a function.
2021-01-05T16:37:54Z beach: Then, you have an IF without an `else' branch.  And since it is a form that is executed for side effect only, you should use WHEN instead.
2021-01-05T16:39:12Z phoe: solideogloria[m]: of course it modifies focus
2021-01-05T16:39:25Z phoe: your SETF calls modify the FOCUS local variable declared in line 1 of your paste
2021-01-05T16:39:47Z phoe: and likely nothing else
2021-01-05T16:39:50Z beach: Further, you are using EVENT as a Boolean in (WHEN EVENT....).  In the LUV slides (page 13) by Norvig and Pitman, they explain that WHEN should be used only with Booleans, so I would write (UNLESS (NULL EVENT)...) instead.
2021-01-05T16:40:04Z beach: phoe:  I think I just said that.
2021-01-05T16:40:12Z phoe: welp, yes
2021-01-05T16:40:14Z phoe hides
2021-01-05T16:40:55Z solideogloria[m]: The behaviour I expected was to modify the focus variable which events takes as an argument
2021-01-05T16:41:06Z phoe: you can't have that with a function
2021-01-05T16:41:15Z beach: solideogloria[m]: What programming language do you know that would work that way?
2021-01-05T16:41:33Z beach: Fortran I guess.
2021-01-05T16:41:48Z beach: And C++ if you have a & there.
2021-01-05T16:41:51Z solideogloria[m]: <beach "soli deo gloria: What programmin"> C ?
2021-01-05T16:42:07Z beach: solideogloria[m]: C doesn't work as you expected here.
2021-01-05T16:42:20Z phoe: either return a value that can then be set in EVENTS, or use a macro instead, or use a local variable that encompasses both of those functions
2021-01-05T16:42:36Z phoe: beach: it does, if you pass a pointer and do `*p = foo;`
2021-01-05T16:42:48Z solideogloria[m]: <beach "soli deo gloria: C doesn't work "> with pointers ofc
2021-01-05T16:42:59Z beach: phoe: But this code doesn't pass a pointer.
2021-01-05T16:43:04Z phoe: beach: yes
2021-01-05T16:43:09Z phoe: that's why it's not working :D
2021-01-05T16:43:39Z phoe: they could pass in a locative though, if they like this programming style
2021-01-05T16:43:58Z phoe: pass in a (lambda (x) (setf focus x)) with the FOCUS from EVENTS
2021-01-05T16:44:04Z phoe: and then funcall it with the value they want
2021-01-05T16:44:44Z solideogloria[m]: I could just write the setf in the event case at that point
2021-01-05T16:44:45Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Furthermore, (= focus 0) can be expressed as (zerop focus) which is more specific.  And there is a general rule in programming that you should use the most specific construct that will do the job.
2021-01-05T16:45:05Z solideogloria[m]: <beach "soli deo gloria: Furthermore, (="> oh yeah, almost forgot about that
2021-01-05T16:45:24Z phoe: solideogloria[m]: yes, that would be even better
2021-01-05T16:45:40Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T16:45:47Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Moreover, IF is a form in Common Lisp, so you can write (setf focus (if (zerop focus) (1- (length wins)) (1- focus)))
2021-01-05T16:46:24Z solideogloria[m]: that makes more sense
2021-01-05T16:46:34Z solideogloria[m]: didn't even think about that
2021-01-05T16:47:16Z beach: So, anyway, Common Lisp uses call-by-value just like most other programming languages.
2021-01-05T16:47:29Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-05T16:47:53Z beach: The arguments to a function are forms, and they are evaluated.  Then a copy of the value is given to the function as an argument, either in a register or on the stack.
2021-01-05T16:50:07Z beach: The main difference compared to C is that values in Common Lisp are references.  So if you send a mutable object to a function, then mutating that object inside the function will have visible effects to the caller.
2021-01-05T16:51:02Z beach: But in this case, you are passing a number, and numbers are immutable, and the operation you are doing is not mutating the object anyway, just assigning to the parameter as we explained.
2021-01-05T16:56:17Z phoe: okay, starting the stream at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkqQq2Hwt5o in four minutes.
2021-01-05T16:56:23Z phoe prepares
2021-01-05T16:57:37Z beach: But, we already saw it!  What are you preparing?
2021-01-05T16:59:30Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T17:00:03Z phoe: for the live chat with non-lisp people
2021-01-05T17:00:21Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6)
2021-01-05T17:00:35Z beach: Oh!  Nice!
2021-01-05T17:00:52Z aeth: From a C programmer perspective, CL is like a language where everything is &foo, except some of those are immutable (like e.g. numbers) and thus can probably be optimized by the compiler.
2021-01-05T17:00:53Z jackdaniel: does reading old books qualify as a "dead chat"?
2021-01-05T17:01:38Z phoe: jackdaniel: right, "synchronous" is a better word
2021-01-05T17:01:54Z beach: aeth: That is not true, and I think I just said the opposite.
2021-01-05T17:02:20Z aeth: C and C++ really have this strange sort of situation where they make you try to guess whether you should have some data structure be copied or not, which can get really fuzzy when it's at some sweet spot in size... so you can accidentally write slow code.
2021-01-05T17:02:24Z Bike: "everything is &foo" is kind of a confusing phrasing, since C++ uses that syntax for call-by-reference
2021-01-05T17:02:24Z beach: aeth: And I wish you would not confuse the hell out of newbies by bringing up the compiler optimization.
2021-01-05T17:02:59Z aeth: oh, hmm, I think I confused C and C++ then
2021-01-05T17:03:06Z aeth: see? That's the problem, forcing the programmer to think about this.
2021-01-05T17:03:13Z aeth: The compiler knows better.
2021-01-05T17:03:20Z Bike: well lisp is definitely not doing C++ call-by-reference
2021-01-05T17:05:24Z beach: Exactly.
2021-01-05T17:06:00Z Bike: you could say "everything is a pointer", but that's false, and also we don't do pointer operations in lisp
2021-01-05T17:06:14Z aeth: Rephrasing... In CL, everything is indirectly accessed via a pointer (* unless optimized), just not one that you can access.
2021-01-05T17:06:21Z beach: And in C, it would send the address of a variable the value of which can then be modified inside the function, and that is definitely not what Common Lisp is doing.
2021-01-05T17:06:47Z beach: aeth: I wish you would not confuse the hell out of newbies by bringing up the compiler optimization.
2021-01-05T17:07:12Z beach: aeth: You should distinguish between semantics and implementation tricks.
2021-01-05T17:07:18Z Xach: It's interesting to me that if you don't try to think about what it's "really" doing underneath, and aren't comparing it to something else, the semantics seem pretty easy to follow to me. But maybe I've just internalized it too much.
2021-01-05T17:07:35Z phoe: I find it very easy to think it from the places point of view
2021-01-05T17:07:40Z phoe: but the places point of view is not very popular :(
2021-01-05T17:08:16Z jackdaniel: everything is a pointer unless it is an immediate object seems to be a correct description to me -- and function aguments are passed as copies of said pointers
2021-01-05T17:08:25Z aeth: beach: The thing is, someone coming from C or C++ would have as thier first rection "that's slow" if you don't put a "optimizations can happen" asterisk.
2021-01-05T17:08:27Z beach: Xach: I think that simple view is what I am trying to communicate.
2021-01-05T17:08:40Z aeth: You don't have to explain the optimizations, you just say "compilers can optimize it"
2021-01-05T17:09:09Z beach: aeth: Most newbies here aren't sophisticated enough to see that, so I suggest you bring it up only when you see that reaction.
2021-01-05T17:09:10Z pfdietz: mfiano: the interesting part of Hypothesis (or the minimal version, Minithesis) is it gives a universal way of reducing interesting inputs, by recording the random bits used by the generator and replaying using those.
2021-01-05T17:10:03Z beach: jackdaniel: But that's an unnecessary complication for a newbie since the semantics are as if every argument is a reference.
2021-01-05T17:10:32Z jackdaniel: I was referring to what Bike said
2021-01-05T17:10:42Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2021-01-05T17:10:45Z jackdaniel: (in other words, I'm not trying to educate solideogloria[m])
2021-01-05T17:10:56Z beach: Got it.
2021-01-05T17:12:01Z jackdaniel: I agree with Xach: what lisp does is what lisp does is the best approach until you start writing a transpiler
2021-01-05T17:12:21Z Xach: an object with mutable state is the same in the caller or in the function being called. changes to its mutable state will be visible to anything that knows about the object. if there is no mutable state what's "really" happening does not matter.
2021-01-05T17:12:22Z aeth: In response to Bike... Everything is a pointer (that you can't directly access) unless optimized. So it's only false if you go into implementation details (although you can assume that at the very least, all fixnums have this optimization in any reasonable implementation)
2021-01-05T17:12:36Z aeth: Obviously too technical to say to newbies.
2021-01-05T17:12:41Z Bike: the fact that they're pointers IS an implementation detail
2021-01-05T17:13:03Z Bike: i just don't understand what the point of saying they're pointers is to a C programmer. we don't use them like C programmers use pointers
2021-01-05T17:13:23Z aeth: But it's an implementation detail that has to hold on the mainstream architectures unless heavily abstracted (like e.g. a CL that compiles to JS or something)...
2021-01-05T17:13:31Z pfdietz: It's better to say that mutable things in Lisp have object identity.  Indeed, visible mutability is a way to define object identity.
2021-01-05T17:13:38Z Xach: i'm reminded of K&R 2nd ed, which tries in some cases to explain C in terms Pascal programmers would understand.
2021-01-05T17:13:39Z beach: That's why I use the term "reference" instead of "pointer".
2021-01-05T17:14:09Z beach: Bike: ^
2021-01-05T17:16:43Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T17:17:45Z gabot joined #lisp
2021-01-05T17:19:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-05T17:19:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-05T17:19:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-05T17:20:54Z beach: solideogloria[m]: So I guess you are totally confused now.  Sorry about that!
2021-01-05T17:21:18Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Unfortunately, it happens every time.
2021-01-05T17:21:20Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-05T17:25:53Z Krystof: go not to IRC for advice, for they shall say both "nay" and "yea" and "well, actually"
2021-01-05T17:26:24Z phoe: one Lisp hacker says aye, another says nay
2021-01-05T17:26:27Z davd33 quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-05T17:26:43Z jackdaniel: the best way to receive an answer to a question is to provide an invalid statement, then people will rush in to correct you :-)
2021-01-05T17:27:38Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T17:27:59Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-05T17:28:46Z aeth: I guess part of this dispute is if you see Lisp as a Platonic algorithmic language that happens to be implemented in today's hardware (top-down), or as the most convenient way to abstract over the hardware (and OSes) that exists today (bottom-up). And it's kind of both. Especially Common Lisp, which makes a lot of concessions for performance and compatibility.
2021-01-05T17:29:29Z aeth: Something like Forth is clearly the latter and something that's pure FP is clearly the former. CL is in an uncomfortable middle ground.
2021-01-05T17:30:25Z solideogloria[m]: beach: should I use global variables in that code I sent earlier ?
2021-01-05T17:30:30Z beach: aeth: When a newbie is confused about the semantics, how experienced people think of it is beside the point.  We just have to find the explanation that is the most appropriate so that the newbie can understand.
2021-01-05T17:30:34Z phoe: solideogloria[m]: not really
2021-01-05T17:30:44Z phoe: in general, use as few of them as possible
2021-01-05T17:30:51Z beach: solideogloria[m]: No, I don't recommend that.  Use the return value instead.
2021-01-05T17:31:02Z phoe: you can also have multiple return values!
2021-01-05T17:31:03Z solideogloria[m]: ok
2021-01-05T17:31:09Z beach: solideogloria[m]: (setf focus (compute-focus focus wins))
2021-01-05T17:31:12Z beach: Or something like that.
2021-01-05T17:31:24Z Xach: For enlightenment and amusement, you can also read about a comparison between BLISS and CL! https://www.xach.com/rpw3/articles/unl5jum4i6ej6d@corp.supernews.com.html
2021-01-05T17:31:25Z phoe: (defun foo () (values 1 2 3)) and then (multiple-value-bind (x y z) (foo) ...)
2021-01-05T17:31:29Z solideogloria[m]: I mean in like general, not just that
2021-01-05T17:31:40Z phoe: in general use globals very, very sparingly
2021-01-05T17:31:41Z solideogloria[m]: events is getting those values from another function
2021-01-05T17:31:45Z beach: solideogloria[m]: In general you should avoid globals.
2021-01-05T17:32:27Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T17:32:35Z aeth: Some people use globals for configuration, which is reasonable. I restrict things a bit further, and don't really use (new) globals at all (with rare exceptions).
2021-01-05T17:37:12Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-05T17:39:31Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T17:40:15Z aeth: You don't want to use globals in general because they make threading harder and you might want to use threads one day. (There are a dozen other reasons, but this is the #1 reason today imo.)
2021-01-05T17:41:51Z aeth: Today's machines are 6 to 64 cores. You don't want to make threading hard.
2021-01-05T17:42:16Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-05T17:48:44Z hi_im_buggy joined #lisp
2021-01-05T17:50:09Z jeosol: In the light of the global/no-global variable discussion, what is a better design to initialize the slots of a class with large number of slots, e.g., > 30, and still retain transparency. In one of my previous iterations, I had &rest and &key  ..., in the lambdalist
2021-01-05T17:50:23Z jeosol: then it can start to get very hairy ...
2021-01-05T17:51:43Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T17:52:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T17:52:43Z aeth: jeosol: Try using a component-based design? So instead of one object with 30 slots have one object with 6 slots that each contain an object with 5 slots?
2021-01-05T17:52:46Z jackdaniel: jeosol: create a function
2021-01-05T17:53:01Z jackdaniel: i.e (defun initialize-slot (name) (case name (foo 42) (bar 13)))
2021-01-05T17:53:19Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-05T17:53:24Z jackdaniel: then (defclass xxx ((foo :initform (initialize-slot 'foo)) (bar :initform (initialize-slot 'bar))))
2021-01-05T17:53:36Z jackdaniel: you may redefine the function later to provide different default values
2021-01-05T17:54:01Z jackdaniel: (unless you depend on the object itself, then initialize instance is of course the way)
2021-01-05T17:54:06Z jeosol: aeth: good point. something similar was suggested early when i started from comp.lang.lisp (maybe it was you). I have used that in certain places and significantly reduced the slots number,
2021-01-05T17:54:23Z aeth: I don't use c.l.l, but components are trendy.
2021-01-05T17:54:24Z jeosol: It's like a car, where tires, wheel, etc, can be their own objects.
2021-01-05T17:55:43Z moon-child: c.l.l?
2021-01-05T17:55:48Z moon-child: presumably not comp.lang.lisp?
2021-01-05T17:56:34Z jeosol: jackdaniel: thanks for that. So in the function initialize-slot will essentially, have as many slots as I have right?
2021-01-05T17:56:51Z aeth: moon-child: sorry, I thought it was clear from context, i.e. <jeosol> ... from comp.lang.lisp (maybe it was [aeth]) ... <aeth> I don't use c.l.l...
2021-01-05T17:56:54Z jeosol: moon-child: yes, I was referring to comp.lang.lisp and I think that's what aeth meant
2021-01-05T17:57:08Z jackdaniel: jeosol: that's up to you, it is the function you define
2021-01-05T17:57:17Z jeosol: ok.
2021-01-05T17:57:29Z jackdaniel: you may i.e provide otherwise clause that initializes the slot to :<unbound-but-not-really>
2021-01-05T17:57:30Z rogersm_ quit
2021-01-05T17:57:43Z jackdaniel: (using my "case" example)
2021-01-05T17:58:10Z jackdaniel: you could also define your own slot class, but that would be overkill given that you can use initform that way
2021-01-05T18:02:56Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-05T18:03:38Z jeosol: jackdaniel: thank you for the suggestions
2021-01-05T18:04:38Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-01-05T18:04:45Z jeosol: Has anyone used/ or is using esrap reader? not sure dim is here
2021-01-05T18:04:56Z dim: I am
2021-01-05T18:05:06Z jeosol: basically, I'll like to go from a file of input data and then create my final object
2021-01-05T18:05:17Z jeosol: dim: hi
2021-01-05T18:05:20Z dim: been a long time I didn't hack esrap related things though, last time was a full Oracle PLSQL parser ;-)
2021-01-05T18:05:41Z jeosol: I remember, you pointed me over from comp.lang.lisp to look at pgloader code for an example
2021-01-05T18:06:01Z dim: sounds like the kind of thing I would do yes
2021-01-05T18:06:05Z jeosol: haha
2021-01-05T18:06:38Z jeosol: dim: well you did.
2021-01-05T18:08:40Z dim: hehe, well, did you find what you wanted to?
2021-01-05T18:09:01Z jeosol: dim: the pgloader example is still the best one to go to?
2021-01-05T18:09:13Z VincentVega: "In the LUV slides (page 13) by Norvig and Pitman, they explain that WHEN should be used only with Booleans, so I would write (UNLESS (NULL EVENT)...) "
2021-01-05T18:09:22Z VincentVega: beach: they make that particular suggestion w/ regards to AND/OR, not WHEN. (when smth ...) as a nil guard feels like a no-brainer, an idiom. Why be unnecessarily verbose, since it's only a question of preference?
2021-01-05T18:09:29Z dim: it's the only one I know well enough to comment, other examples might be better suited to your use case
2021-01-05T18:10:17Z jeosol: dim: I have a file for a 3rd partly software that I'd like to read and create objects as I read the file. Some of the objects are intermediate slots to a large final objects. For now, I do this process by hand, hence my large lambdalist question earlier
2021-01-05T18:10:54Z dim: well then you might find pgloader parsers useful indeed
2021-01-05T18:11:03Z jeosol: dim: I'd have to go back to it. The 3rd party software file uses include files, i.e., one file includes another file. I am thinking, I should first expand the whole thing, and then use esrap
2021-01-05T18:11:09Z jackdaniel: jeosol: here is another example (https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecrepl/-/blob/master/c18-syntax-reader.lisp) -- and here is more finished version with the preprocessor written by scymtym (https://github.com/scymtym/language.c)
2021-01-05T18:11:47Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-05T18:12:07Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/parsers/parse-pgpass.lisp this one is a simple one, jeosol ; to get started
2021-01-05T18:14:20Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T18:14:31Z jeosol: jackdaniel, dim: thanks guys. These examples should help me figure things out.
2021-01-05T18:17:23Z ralt: dim: hey, long time no see
2021-01-05T18:17:34Z dim: hey ralt !
2021-01-05T18:18:29Z dim: your distribution project looked nice, I might have to find it again and try it with pgloader... best would be to hook-it up somehow with GitHub and some CI system to produce binaries for a choice of platforms automatically, I suppose
2021-01-05T18:18:35Z dim: I wish I had time to invest in that
2021-01-05T18:19:16Z ralt: Yup, the gitlab repo has a CI example for that
2021-01-05T18:19:33Z pfdietz: I had a use for defglobal in sbcl, as a counter accessed by atomic-incf.  Much faster than using explicit locks.
2021-01-05T18:23:12Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-05T18:23:24Z VincentVega: pfdietz: you mean atomic-incf requires the variable to be global?
2021-01-05T18:24:02Z moon-child: aeth: oh, duh, I need to read better :P
2021-01-05T18:25:06Z pfdietz: I wanted a single counter, regardless of threading.
2021-01-05T18:27:44Z VincentVega: ah i see
2021-01-05T18:31:59Z amberglint quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-05T18:32:53Z dhil quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-05T18:33:08Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T18:35:22Z vmmenon joined #lisp
2021-01-05T18:36:22Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-05T18:37:37Z mister_m joined #lisp
2021-01-05T18:41:00Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T18:41:57Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-05T18:48:13Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T18:52:50Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-05T18:54:58Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T18:56:37Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T18:56:37Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-05T18:58:47Z varjagg joined #lisp
2021-01-05T19:00:56Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T19:03:18Z varjagg is now known as varjag
2021-01-05T19:04:18Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T19:06:05Z saturn2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T19:12:23Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T19:15:02Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T19:15:25Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T19:15:39Z hi_im_buggy quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-05T19:22:19Z heisig: Is there a somewhat portable Lisp library for emitting memory barriers?
2021-01-05T19:23:37Z Bike: do any lisps besides sbcl have that?
2021-01-05T19:23:46Z heisig: I don't know.
2021-01-05T19:24:35Z heisig: I am trying to implement an algorithm based on a reference implementation in Java and I'm struggling to translate 'volatile' slots.
2021-01-05T19:25:06Z clone_of_saturn joined #lisp
2021-01-05T19:30:50Z Bike: i'm not sure any implementations actually have something like volatile slots
2021-01-05T19:31:07Z Bike: which... iirc are modified sequentially consistently? i haven't stared at the JSR in a while
2021-01-05T19:32:13Z Bike: right yeah.
2021-01-05T19:32:36Z Bike: there's cas sometimes but not a way to mark reads and writes as necessarily atomic
2021-01-05T19:32:37Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T19:33:42Z Bike: if there is a cas you could assume that it's SC and use it for both reads and writes, but that's kind of stupid looking
2021-01-05T19:34:27Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-05T19:36:47Z clone_of_saturn is now known as saturn2
2021-01-05T19:41:56Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T19:42:31Z freshmaker666 is now known as greeb
2021-01-05T19:43:31Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-05T19:44:22Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T19:44:34Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-05T19:44:52Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-05T19:45:06Z heisig: Bike: Good idea, I'll give that a try.  Maybe I can hide the CAS instructions behind wrapped slot readers and writers.
2021-01-05T19:46:04Z makomo quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-05T19:48:52Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-05T19:51:27Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-05T19:52:02Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-05T19:52:27Z makomo quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-05T19:52:51Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T19:53:12Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-05T19:57:12Z alandipert: is the issue here that typical CL thread conventions are per-thread bindings? and lack of a primitive like volatile to denote a mutable value across threads?
2021-01-05T19:59:59Z Bike: it's not really related to dynamic variables.
2021-01-05T20:00:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:00:08Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:00:37Z Bike: i mean it is a little, but it's a deeper issue. the order of things across threads but outside of locks is not defined.
2021-01-05T20:00:48Z heisig: alandipert: I want to implement a fast, lock-free work-stealing deque so I need to enforce some ordering between slot reads and writes.
2021-01-05T20:01:10Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T20:01:11Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:01:16Z Bike: languages like java and C++ have spent a lot of effort writing standards for these "atomic" operations that we haven't
2021-01-05T20:01:52Z moon-child: yeah memory model spec was a big effort.  And they still didn't even get it right :P
2021-01-05T20:01:53Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:02:14Z Bike: it is funny seeing all the C++ stuff that's like "there's also memory_order_consume. you shouldn't use it since it's broken"
2021-01-05T20:02:16Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-05T20:02:25Z moon-child: (that's more on c&c++ side; idk if there was anything wrong with java's memory model)
2021-01-05T20:02:35Z pfdietz: In the code I was referring to, in non-sbcl lisps explicit locks were used to access a slot with class allocation (which is a kind of non-special global).
2021-01-05T20:02:49Z sunset_NOVA joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:02:49Z Bike: i think java is fine. it also doesn't have sub-sequential-consistency like C++ does.
2021-01-05T20:03:01Z Bike: abandoning sequential consistency drops you straight into hell
2021-01-05T20:03:54Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:04:05Z heisig: I just wrote a macro to generate custom slot accessors, such that a memory barrier is emitted before each read, and after each write.  That seems to have solved my problem.
2021-01-05T20:04:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:05:24Z terrorjack quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-05T20:07:35Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:09:14Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:09:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:09:46Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:09:58Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:11:07Z alandipert: i've only every studied java but they have the advantage of defining thread semantics, vs the endless bolting-on that seems to happen with c++ (my perception from a distance, nowhere near an expert at c++ myself)
2021-01-05T20:11:52Z izh_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:11:56Z alandipert: and my perception of CL is that it was carefully designed to accommodate likely designs without specifying any
2021-01-05T20:12:10Z moon-child: alandipert: c11 and c++11 got a proper memory model, like java
2021-01-05T20:12:44Z Bike: the lisp standard has no mention of threads or particular preparation for them whatsoever. bordeaux threads puts in some effort but nothing for atomics, and i don't think it actually defines a model anyway
2021-01-05T20:12:59Z terrorjack joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:13:30Z alandipert wonders about the origin of the per-thread binding semantic
2021-01-05T20:14:09Z Bike: that was something they agreed on when they came up with bordeaux threads, is my understanding
2021-01-05T20:14:32Z Bike: where "they" means whatever group that did that. it's more recent than the standard
2021-01-05T20:14:39Z vmmenon quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-05T20:14:42Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-05T20:15:03Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:15:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:15:36Z ralt: I would've thought the per-implementation thread APIs came before bordeaux threads
2021-01-05T20:15:44Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:16:05Z Bike: they do, yes, but there is a gulf between implementing something and defining the semantics for it.
2021-01-05T20:16:28Z moon-child: presumably there is at least *some* relationship between the spec and the preceding implementations, though; no?
2021-01-05T20:17:22Z ralt: the spec makes zero mentions of threads afaik
2021-01-05T20:17:23Z Bike: sure, but you can write code without fully defining all semantics for it. i expect that in at least a few implementations, before they were bordeaux threads "conformant" they hadn't put in any thought into how dynamic bindings interacted with threads
2021-01-05T20:17:33Z moon-child: ralt: I mean bordeaux
2021-01-05T20:17:58Z Bike: i don't think any lisp implementation currently defines what happens if you modify/read data from multiple threads simultaneously, or even says that doing so is undefined
2021-01-05T20:18:00Z makomo quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-05T20:18:38Z Bike: several implementations have atomic operations including CAS but i don't think they have models of how they work
2021-01-05T20:18:48Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:18:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:20:04Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-05T20:21:10Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:21:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:21:15Z makomo quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-05T20:21:42Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:22:00Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-05T20:22:20Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:22:24Z Bike: i mean really you have to define concepts like simultaneity. there are ones that are broadly accepted, of course, but it's good to be specific
2021-01-05T20:23:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:24:08Z alandipert: i suppose thread-local bindings don't require one to approach simultaneity, since the mutation is per thread?
2021-01-05T20:24:12Z makomo quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-05T20:24:18Z alandipert: whereas something like volatile definitely does
2021-01-05T20:24:42Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:24:54Z Bike: yeah, it's fairly easy to define the semantics if you just have threads and locks
2021-01-05T20:26:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:26:43Z Bike: the dynamic binding stuff kind of isn't related to execution order. if you bind a dynamic variable in a thread, whatever value it had globally is irrelevant, so whether the binding happens before or after modifications of the global value from other threads is irrelevant
2021-01-05T20:27:00Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:27:14Z Bike: before or after or during
2021-01-05T20:29:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:29:19Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:30:18Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-05T20:31:09Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:31:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:32:01Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:34:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:35:10Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:39:22Z surabax_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:39:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:40:35Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:40:35Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:40:53Z amberglint__ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:42:44Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-05T20:42:49Z amberglint__ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-05T20:44:26Z surabax_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-05T20:44:48Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T20:46:51Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T20:47:48Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:50:22Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T20:52:42Z todun joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:54:48Z abhixec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T20:55:49Z pyc_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:55:56Z pyc quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-05T20:56:57Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-05T20:58:36Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T21:00:29Z jw4 joined #lisp
2021-01-05T21:00:49Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-05T21:07:55Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-05T21:08:39Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-05T21:10:55Z bendersteed quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T21:11:17Z jonathan| quit (Quit: fBNC - https://bnc4free.com)
2021-01-05T21:11:41Z jonathan| joined #lisp
2021-01-05T21:15:21Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-05T21:17:55Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-05T21:19:52Z sunset_NOVA quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-05T21:21:08Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T21:25:19Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-05T21:27:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T21:28:08Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T21:31:29Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-05T21:33:10Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T21:33:41Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-05T21:34:53Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-05T21:38:19Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-05T21:43:38Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-05T21:45:39Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-05T21:50:37Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T21:53:13Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-05T21:57:04Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-05T21:58:26Z neirac quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-05T22:00:49Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T22:00:58Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T22:01:07Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-05T22:09:37Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-05T22:10:06Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T22:10:10Z scymtym_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-05T22:10:27Z VincentVega quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T22:10:42Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-05T22:10:46Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-05T22:11:18Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T22:13:17Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-05T22:16:45Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-05T22:17:05Z frodef: Is there a functional equivalent to OR already defined in CL?
2021-01-05T22:17:57Z pve: frodef: like SOME?
2021-01-05T22:18:47Z frodef: pve: yes, except with the "same" syntax as or, i.e an &rest arglist instead of a list argument.
2021-01-05T22:19:03Z phoe: frodef: (a:curry #'some #'identity)
2021-01-05T22:19:14Z phoe: oh, wait, also with #'apply
2021-01-05T22:19:22Z phoe: there's nothing built-in.
2021-01-05T22:19:41Z frodef: suppose not, but thanks.
2021-01-05T22:21:19Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-05T22:23:24Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-05T22:33:54Z etimmons: ralt: shinohai: My current patch for static executables and explanation are at https://www.timmons.dev/posts/static-executables-with-sbcl.html
2021-01-05T22:34:13Z etimmons: thanks for helping motivate me to finally get a personal site up and running
2021-01-05T22:34:48Z phoe crossposts to /r/Common_Lisp
2021-01-05T22:34:56Z ralt: and there was much rejoicing
2021-01-05T22:35:22Z White_Flame: frodef: (defun or-func (&rest args) (loop for arg in args when arg return arg)) ?
2021-01-05T22:35:40Z White_Flame: you can shortcut because all the args have been evaluated before the call
2021-01-05T22:36:18Z frodef: White_Flame: sure, or (some 'identity args)
2021-01-05T22:36:36Z frodef: .. or (loop for arg in args thereis arg)
2021-01-05T22:36:51Z White_Flame: yeah, lots of options.  I thought SOME was out
2021-01-05T22:37:00Z White_Flame should sleep more ;)
2021-01-05T22:37:04Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-05T22:37:18Z shinohai: etimmons: Thank you very much, will read now.
2021-01-05T22:37:39Z frodef: White_Flame: nah, just figured there might be some or-func equivalent I'd missed.
2021-01-05T22:38:43Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-05T22:43:24Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-05T22:44:48Z _death: there can't be a straightforward functional equivalent since OR also passes along multiple values
2021-01-05T22:45:11Z phoe: there can be one, you simply ignore non-primary values
2021-01-05T22:45:17Z phoe: as with all function arguments
2021-01-05T22:46:33Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-05T22:46:54Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-05T22:49:46Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-05T22:50:02Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-05T22:50:05Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-05T22:50:46Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T22:51:12Z todun quit (Quit: todun)
2021-01-05T22:58:34Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-05T22:58:36Z ralt: etimmons: isn't libdl available at runtime if you link against musl?
2021-01-05T22:59:18Z etimmons: "Sort of" it's a shim that does nothing but return errors (assuming you're statically linking)
2021-01-05T22:59:43Z ralt: annoying
2021-01-05T22:59:46Z moon-child: doesn't musl have its own dynamic linker?  Why couldn't they leverage that and link it in too?
2021-01-05T23:01:00Z ralt: etimmons: so I if understand correctly, your patches are essentially (1) make --without-os-provides-dlopen work, and (2) provide this script to dump the lisp image's symbols to a file that you can then compile sbcl with?
2021-01-05T23:01:52Z etimmons: I think one of the reasons is that musl doesn't have a lot of interdependencies between the different libc components and it's very likely that static linking will prune chunks of libc
2021-01-05T23:02:21Z etimmons: And they don't want to deal with reloading those pieces dynamically if a library you later dlopen requires them
2021-01-05T23:02:32Z etimmons: ralt: correct
2021-01-05T23:02:59Z ralt: it's annoying to have to compile sbcl separately for every app :/
2021-01-05T23:03:44Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-05T23:04:48Z etimmons: I know... I think there could be a path forward, though. It'd require relaxing the requirement that build ids match between the runtime and core and rejiggering the code to gracefully fail in the presence of the stub libdl
2021-01-05T23:05:01Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-05T23:05:31Z etimmons: Or you could be overzealous with the libraries you link into the runtime (and overpopulate the linkage table)
2021-01-05T23:05:54Z etimmons: and then only rebuild the runtime when you want to shake out the unused symbols
2021-01-05T23:06:38Z ralt: can't you build a custom runtime from sbcl one's?
2021-01-05T23:06:54Z ralt: so you don't touch sbcl.core et al, you just increment from there?
2021-01-05T23:07:23Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-05T23:07:30Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-05T23:07:50Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-05T23:09:26Z etimmons: Potentially. One thing in the way of that right now is you probably want to develop with :os-provides-dlopen, which can't be present when you build the static runtime. And rebuilding the runtime will change its build ID and it will reject your development core
2021-01-05T23:10:11Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-05T23:10:37Z ralt: no I mean making the runtime into a separate file altogether
2021-01-05T23:11:02Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-05T23:11:24Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-05T23:11:54Z etimmons: I don't think I understand what you're suggesting
2021-01-05T23:12:37Z ralt: I think we're talking past each other, yes
2021-01-05T23:13:15Z ralt: what's "your development core"?
2021-01-05T23:13:18Z ralt: the sbcl.core file?
2021-01-05T23:14:23Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-05T23:15:02Z etimmons: In my ideal world we'd develop like normal with a dynamic SBCL runtime and then save-lisp-and-die (with :executable nil) that's my "development core"
2021-01-05T23:15:25Z etimmons: we'd then have a script that pulls the linkage info directly from the core and builds a static runtime
2021-01-05T23:16:02Z ralt: can you provide a stub dlopen() that looks in the static linkage table?
2021-01-05T23:16:14Z etimmons: and then the static runtime would load the "development core" so we don't have to compile the lisp code twice
2021-01-05T23:21:37Z etimmons: Hmmmmm. Probably. I get some feedback early on that was basically "don't build with :os-provides-dlopen and then stub out dlopen"
2021-01-05T23:21:56Z etimmons: But that stub was a no-op. Perhaps a severely restricted but still functional dlopen/dlsym would get a better reception
2021-01-05T23:23:19Z ralt: What I'm thinking is that if the fake dlopen() looks in a static table, and you can dump this static table with save-lisp-and-die, then you solve the problem, no?
2021-01-05T23:24:29Z ralt: I'm not sure if what I'm saying makes sense
2021-01-05T23:24:43Z ralt: Probably input from sbcl devs would be better.
2021-01-05T23:25:22Z ralt: hmmm
2021-01-05T23:25:35Z etimmons: Yes, but save-lisp-and-die can only dump the symbol names. You'll still need a core relink (and recompile of a single file) to get the other half of that table
2021-01-05T23:25:37Z etimmons: s/core relink/runtime relink/
2021-01-05T23:26:31Z ralt: actually
2021-01-05T23:26:37Z ralt: there's this sbcl.o file you can build
2021-01-05T23:27:18Z ralt: it has all the symbols
2021-01-05T23:28:07Z ralt: if you link it with the runtime, you end up with a static binary that supposedly has all the symbols and the other half of the table
2021-01-05T23:28:45Z ralt: but the current problem is that dlopen() will fail because it's the stub
2021-01-05T23:29:05Z etimmons: Isn't sbcl.o the runtime?
2021-01-05T23:29:37Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T23:30:55Z ralt: is it? I'm not sure anymore now. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Vq3qdldG/
2021-01-05T23:31:44Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-05T23:32:27Z etimmons: I'm definitely not a C developer (thank goodness) so it's definitely possible I'm missing something, but I don't see any way to support both dynamically loading foreign libs and creating a static executable without a relink of the runtime at a minimum.
2021-01-05T23:33:08Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-05T23:33:10Z etimmons: Yep, sbcl.o is simply the runtime linked together into an object file
2021-01-05T23:34:57Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T23:35:33Z ralt: I'm not much of a C dev either, but as I understand it, you can do e.g. `gcc -static my-dynamic-runtime sbcl.o -o static-runtime`, no? as long as `my-dynamic-runtime` has a dlopen() that looks in itself first?
2021-01-05T23:37:54Z etimmons: Looking back at some of my other early feedback, there may be a way to reuse the core between the dynamic and static runtimes, so the Lisp code wouldn't have to be recompiled at least
2021-01-05T23:38:18Z ralt: do you have a link to that sbcl-devel thread?
2021-01-05T23:39:21Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-05T23:40:07Z etimmons: https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/sbcl-devel/thread/87d06ro5ok.fsf%40rocinante.timmons.dev/#msg37020648
2021-01-05T23:41:35Z etimmons: and https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/sbcl-devel/thread/20200713200236.22507-1-etimmons%40mit.edu/#msg37060573
2021-01-05T23:41:59Z etimmons: But I now have to run for dinner!
2021-01-05T23:42:01Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-05T23:42:14Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-05T23:47:14Z ralt: as I understand it, the problem is that the symbols are actually linked into the executable with gcc, but sbcl insists on loading them for its linkage table, and is not succeeding because it uses dlopen(). In my naive mind, it means that making reinit() use another way in the case of static builds to find the symbol should be the right way.
2021-01-05T23:47:28Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-05T23:51:00Z ralt: and maybe it doesn't even need a linkage table on the C side if it's a static binary.
2021-01-05T23:51:22Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-05T23:52:01Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-05T23:58:35Z ralt: ok yeah, prefilling the table is what the shrinkwrap stuff is about
2021-01-05T23:58:45Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-05T23:58:55Z ralt: which is what you wanted to avoid because of arm
2021-01-05T23:59:08Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T00:05:43Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp
2021-01-06T00:06:16Z gingerale joined #lisp
2021-01-06T00:11:21Z etimmons: I can pretty much guarantee that the devs would object to removing the linkage table. They just purged the last arches that didn't use it.
2021-01-06T00:12:20Z mathrick quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T00:12:26Z ralt: I meant conditionally, based on the staticness
2021-01-06T00:12:47Z etimmons: Are you objecting most to recompiling the lisp code, the runtime, or both?
2021-01-06T00:13:54Z ralt: I'm mostly annoyed by having to recompile sbcl for every different app.
2021-01-06T00:13:57Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T00:14:54Z etimmons: Because I think the reader conditionals in the lisp code for os-provides-dl* could be replaced with runtime checks for dlsym in the linkage table. I suspect that would be enough to make the core reusable, so long as you're careful when you rebuild the runtime.
2021-01-06T00:15:46Z ralt: Basically the ideal experience is that you apt-get install sbcl and then you (asdf:make :foo) and it builds your static binary
2021-01-06T00:16:23Z ralt: And we can make enough automation in e.g. cffi or asdf wrappers or upstream
2021-01-06T00:16:35Z etimmons: I think that's possible, so long as sbcl.o is present.
2021-01-06T00:16:54Z ralt: right, sbcl.o is a requirement
2021-01-06T00:16:59Z ralt: That's ok
2021-01-06T00:17:11Z ralt: Although right now it's not built by default...
2021-01-06T00:19:45Z ralt: Anyway, exciting times
2021-01-06T00:19:50Z etimmons: I think if we can get rid of the need for :os-provides-dl* in the lisp code, your vision becomes much more feasible.
2021-01-06T00:19:59Z ralt: I gotta go now, have a good evening
2021-01-06T00:20:07Z etimmons: Thanks, you too
2021-01-06T00:22:17Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T00:24:55Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T00:26:01Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T00:37:54Z dabr joined #lisp
2021-01-06T00:39:16Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T00:43:58Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-06T00:48:30Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T00:48:56Z dabr left #lisp
2021-01-06T00:50:19Z Xach: win 3
2021-01-06T00:55:25Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T00:58:25Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T01:04:34Z dabr joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:05:37Z ck_: (the command more commonly known as tic-tac-toe)
2021-01-06T01:05:48Z Xach: etimmons: welcome to jurassic park
2021-01-06T01:05:52Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:10:24Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-06T01:11:02Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:11:54Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T01:12:10Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:15:40Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T01:18:28Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:20:04Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-06T01:30:33Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
2021-01-06T01:30:35Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:30:47Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:33:29Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:34:45Z mrcom_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:35:32Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-06T01:38:01Z dabr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T01:42:11Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:42:12Z benjamindc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T01:42:57Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:46:57Z saturn2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1)
2021-01-06T01:47:32Z clone_of_saturn joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:47:41Z clone_of_saturn is now known as saturn2
2021-01-06T01:48:16Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T01:52:36Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-06T02:00:51Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:07:19Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:07:54Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-06T02:08:14Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:10:14Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T02:10:35Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:12:46Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T02:13:11Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:18:37Z benjamindc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T02:18:44Z dbotton: So my project CLOG - The Common Lisp Omnificent GUI is coming along well. It binds all the browser objects (window, screen, document, etc.) and all the connectivity needed for HTML (supports getter and setters for general properties and styles, binding events on elements etc.)
2021-01-06T02:18:44Z dbotton: There is still much left before I can do some cool demos, ie direct creation of forms, canvas, multi media stuff etc.
2021-01-06T02:18:44Z dbotton: In particular if anyone has the time can comment on the code base so far if have some time.
2021-01-06T02:18:44Z dbotton: clog-connection that package is the glue between browser and the lisp interface which is contained in package clog which the rest of the code is in (files divide up functionality and various CLOS objects).
2021-01-06T02:19:34Z dbotton: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog
2021-01-06T02:21:49Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:23:39Z dbotton: The idea behind it is you can do full local GUIs that are cross platform by just setting up a project in electron (which gives you a browser window in a native app on win, osx, linix etc) or various projects on ios android etc and all use the same lisp code base and you easily can use the same app for the web.
2021-01-06T02:26:04Z dbotton: The idea works well and I've used it for years for my projects in Ada, this is a Common Lisp rewrite which so far is much easier to write GUIs in.
2021-01-06T02:26:32Z benjamindc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T02:26:50Z saturn2: interesting...
2021-01-06T02:29:24Z dbotton: If have time let me know what can improve the code base
2021-01-06T02:29:32Z dbotton: I am about 1/2 way done
2021-01-06T02:30:09Z dbotton: The rest is just tedious work on creating various elements in Lisp
2021-01-06T02:30:10Z saturn2: on first glance, it looks like there is a lot of very repetitive code that could use more abstraction
2021-01-06T02:30:17Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T02:31:21Z dbotton: Perhaps but there are small changes here and there that prevent much but open to hear where and what to do
2021-01-06T02:37:23Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:37:40Z etimmons: Xach: Awesome, thanks!
2021-01-06T02:37:48Z dbotton: (Meaning the some of the binding to styles and properties have various nuances)
2021-01-06T02:38:13Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:38:35Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T02:38:37Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T02:38:58Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:42:37Z saturn2: you can write a macro that accepts these nuances as parameters, so you can write (define-style foo :this-nuance (a b c) :that-nuance (x y z)) instead of copying and pasting the same code many times
2021-01-06T02:42:38Z benjamindc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T02:42:43Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-06T02:43:49Z semz joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:43:50Z semz quit (Changing host)
2021-01-06T02:43:50Z semz joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:44:57Z pfdietz: What might be done with code generators in other languages is done in Common Lisp with macros.  The macros can perform arbitrary computations at macroexpansion time.  For example, one could write a parser generator and implement it in a macro.
2021-01-06T02:47:09Z dbotton: This I know, I just wanted to write code already, rather than spend time yet on macros. I've written a number while learning the language
2021-01-06T02:47:29Z dbotton: But for sure will refactor the code with them later
2021-01-06T02:48:04Z aeth: yeah
2021-01-06T02:48:07Z aeth: I do the same.
2021-01-06T02:48:25Z aeth: Write it plain and simple, and then see where macros can make sense.
2021-01-06T02:48:35Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:48:41Z aeth: Plus, it's fun removing a 1000+ lines of code
2021-01-06T02:48:57Z nij: Someone mentioned stumpwm for me a few weeks ago. I'm on it now and I love it. Thank you <3
2021-01-06T02:49:10Z moon-child: yeah but
2021-01-06T02:49:21Z moon-child: wouldn't it be even nicer if you didn't have to write those 1k oc in the first place?
2021-01-06T02:49:21Z dbotton: I actually look forward to it on this code, would have saved much time typing to start with it, but my macro foo not good enough yet
2021-01-06T02:49:25Z aeth: moon-child: coffee
2021-01-06T02:49:53Z aeth: moon-child: Often coffee makes me just write, with quality not really relevant. Then I can clean it up later.
2021-01-06T02:50:11Z aeth: Rarely, I code myself into a giant mess that I have to rewrite, but that was like 3-4 times total.
2021-01-06T02:50:19Z pfdietz: (1) produce a limited prototype, (2) identify common patterns and macroize, (3) finish filling out the prototype, now using the macros.
2021-01-06T02:50:27Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T02:50:44Z aeth: yeah
2021-01-06T02:50:48Z dbotton: For sure moon-child but like I said I wanted to code asap :)
2021-01-06T02:50:54Z aeth: pfdietz: You abstract before you finish, definitely.
2021-01-06T02:51:56Z dbotton: I need certain tools for my ideas like CLOG
2021-01-06T02:52:37Z dbotton: And cleaning up this code will also help me get the macro experience I need cleaning it up
2021-01-06T02:54:07Z dbotton: Like I said before I wish I started on lisp a good 20 years ago
2021-01-06T02:56:06Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-06T02:58:20Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-06T02:58:58Z dbotton: Once done with CLOG have some Visual Basic "style" tools I'd like to make with CLOG for lisp.
2021-01-06T02:59:27Z dbotton: I estimate should be done with CLOG in a few more weeks
2021-01-06T03:00:08Z dbotton: (At least first version before refactoring, etc)
2021-01-06T03:08:53Z nij: Anyone knows how to control stumpwm from the repl (slime or sly @@), if possible?
2021-01-06T03:10:36Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-06T03:16:37Z vutral joined #lisp
2021-01-06T03:18:33Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-06T03:18:59Z dbotton: b
2021-01-06T03:22:05Z aeth: nij: yes
2021-01-06T03:22:08Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-06T03:22:27Z aeth: nij: I think you can start a swank server via the execute-a-command command
2021-01-06T03:22:47Z nij: aeth:  Thanks for the keyword!
2021-01-06T03:23:02Z nij: Any promising terminal emulator written in Lisp?!
2021-01-06T03:24:22Z aeth: A terminal + a POSIX shell is a nice project for someone to do.
2021-01-06T03:24:52Z benjamindc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T03:26:34Z aeth: nij: https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm/wiki/Hacking-StumpWM
2021-01-06T03:26:53Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-06T03:29:17Z aeth: nij: There's an outside chance that |3b| might have something like a terminal emulator in CL...
2021-01-06T03:29:32Z aeth: iirc |3b| has run Emacs in OpenGL before, which is harder
2021-01-06T03:33:47Z pfdietz: Is there an s-expression editor in CL, like the old sedit in Interlisp?
2021-01-06T03:33:47Z mfiano: plisp has uncursed. |3b| has 3bst
2021-01-06T03:36:36Z benjamindc joined #lisp
2021-01-06T03:37:29Z wxie1 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T03:38:01Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T03:38:02Z wxie1 is now known as wxie
2021-01-06T03:41:28Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-06T03:41:54Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-06T03:45:17Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-06T03:48:57Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T03:51:58Z imode1 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T03:52:45Z imode1 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-06T03:53:20Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T03:53:24Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T03:53:40Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-06T03:54:06Z pfdietz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T03:54:50Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-06T03:55:50Z nij: aeth: What does it mean by a "CL port" of st?
2021-01-06T03:59:11Z MetaYan: nij: From the README at https://github.com/3b/3bst : "CL port of the terminal emulation part of st (http://st.suckless.org/)"
2021-01-06T04:00:06Z nij: Yes, this is what I'm curious about.
2021-01-06T04:00:17Z nij: What is a "CL port" of xyz?
2021-01-06T04:00:19Z MetaYan: Ah, I misunderstood your question.
2021-01-06T04:00:45Z nij: Is it a program written in CL that mimicks st?
2021-01-06T04:01:06Z nij: Or is it st but allows users to control/config it in the lang CL?
2021-01-06T04:01:32Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T04:03:19Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-06T04:04:33Z MetaYan: nij: It looks like a rewrite in CL. So ported to CL sounds right.
2021-01-06T04:05:16Z nij: I see.
2021-01-06T04:05:22Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-06T04:05:27Z Jesin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T04:06:15Z waleee-cl: seems to miss dependencies that would allow it to run outside of a host terminal?
2021-01-06T04:07:06Z aeth: oh...
2021-01-06T04:07:23Z aeth: Interesting. A minimalist C program, probably not to hard to mechanically translate and then clean up if the license is nice.
2021-01-06T04:07:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-06T04:07:47Z aeth: I did suspect |3b| was running emacs via a ported terminal
2021-01-06T04:08:34Z aeth: Probably wouldn't be too hard to port other such programs
2021-01-06T04:08:48Z aeth: I think the Java community loves to do this sort of thing.
2021-01-06T04:17:23Z beach: VincentVega: Minimal verbosity is not the main objective of maintainability.  But one is "minimal surprise to the maintainer".  To Norvig and Pitman, that "idiom" is surprising, and I agree with them.  The value is not a Boolean, yet it is tested as if it were.
2021-01-06T04:17:23Z beach: The NIL value is not a Boolean, it is a "default value", and it should be obvious from the code that this is what is meant, i.e. (UNLESS (<default-value-p> VALUE) ...)  In this case the predicate happens to be NULL.
2021-01-06T04:19:23Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T04:19:42Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-06T04:23:10Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-06T04:28:42Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T04:29:56Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-06T04:32:19Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-06T04:35:38Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
2021-01-06T04:36:45Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T04:36:47Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-06T04:42:56Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-06T04:43:13Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-01-06T04:45:26Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T04:49:52Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-06T04:49:58Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T04:52:15Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-06T04:52:41Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T04:52:59Z Iolo joined #lisp
2021-01-06T04:54:25Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T05:00:01Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T05:05:37Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T05:18:41Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-06T05:19:53Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T05:22:22Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T05:22:43Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-06T05:24:54Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-06T05:27:00Z benjamindc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T05:35:13Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n
2021-01-06T05:44:01Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-06T05:45:49Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-06T05:45:52Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-06T05:46:03Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-06T05:48:19Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-06T06:02:38Z abhixec quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-06T06:04:58Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T06:06:02Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T06:13:10Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-06T06:15:21Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-06T06:23:10Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-06T06:24:16Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-06T06:27:12Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-06T06:33:53Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T06:34:04Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-06T06:34:12Z Bahman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T06:37:20Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-06T06:37:59Z mrios22: Hi, I have a question about ASDF. Yesterday (asdf:load-system :myproject) worked fine in SLIME. I rebooted my computer, and now ASDF cannot find :myproject. The files for :myproject are in the local-projects directory of quicklisp, so I thought ASDF would be able to find them. I'm new to creating projects and using asdf. Is there anything obvious that I am missing? Thanks.
2021-01-06T06:38:48Z beach: You may want to do (ql:register-local-projects) (once) before calling ASDF.
2021-01-06T06:39:05Z mrios22: beach, thank you, I will try that.
2021-01-06T06:39:10Z beach: I can't explain why it worked yesterday and not today, though.
2021-01-06T06:40:18Z mrios22: It's possible that I had loaded every file in the project into my inferior lisp so ASDF had no trouble finding all of the symbols I was asking it to look for.
2021-01-06T06:40:32Z beach: Yes, that would be one possible explanation.
2021-01-06T06:42:33Z mrios22: beach -- the (ql:register-local-projects) command worked after I restarted my inferior common lisp process in slime. However, I'll have to do this every time I start SLIME. The solution is to never shut off my computer :)
2021-01-06T06:42:51Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-06T06:42:59Z beach: No, once should do.
2021-01-06T06:43:29Z beach: Next time you start a new image, all your .asd files should be known to ASDF.
2021-01-06T06:43:56Z mrios22: That's curious. I did (ql:register-local-projects), restarted my inferior lisp, and then tried (asdf:load-system :myproject). I got the same error that I got before.
2021-01-06T06:44:08Z beach: That's very strange.
2021-01-06T06:44:14Z beach: I have no explanation for that.
2021-01-06T06:44:21Z mrios22: Then I did (ql:register-local-projects). After that, my asdf:load-system worked.
2021-01-06T06:44:43Z beach: Maybe the place where Quicklisp stores this information is not writable?
2021-01-06T06:44:49Z beach: I am making wild guesses here.
2021-01-06T06:45:06Z mrios22: Let me check my home directory to see what the flags are.
2021-01-06T06:45:43Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T06:46:24Z mrios22: Everything in my ~/quicklisp directory seems to be writeable.
2021-01-06T06:46:47Z beach: I am afraid I don't know where Quicklisp stores this information.
2021-01-06T06:47:01Z mrios22: In any case, I should get to work. Thanks for the advice.
2021-01-06T06:47:22Z beach: Sure.  Sorry I wasn't able to give more help.
2021-01-06T06:47:52Z mrios22: No need to apologize, your advice saved me a lot of trouble and frustration :) Thank you.
2021-01-06T06:47:53Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T06:48:04Z beach: Sure.  Good luck!
2021-01-06T06:49:12Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-06T06:50:43Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T06:50:44Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-06T06:51:40Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-06T06:55:10Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T07:00:56Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T07:02:10Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T07:02:14Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-06T07:04:37Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T07:05:01Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T07:12:12Z pankajsg joined #lisp
2021-01-06T07:12:43Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-06T07:13:25Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-06T07:13:50Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-06T07:19:17Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-06T07:34:24Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T07:34:57Z fitzsim quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T07:42:20Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-06T07:46:17Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T07:51:38Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T07:53:09Z frost-lab joined #lisp
2021-01-06T07:54:19Z wxie1 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T07:55:12Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T07:55:14Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T07:56:23Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T07:56:53Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-06T07:56:54Z wxie1 is now known as wxie
2021-01-06T07:59:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T08:00:03Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:00:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:01:28Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T08:01:34Z beach: I uploaded a new (still very preliminary) version of my paper on call-site optimization: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf
2021-01-06T08:01:35Z beach: As usual, I would appreciate any remarks, in particular remarks indicating that the explanation is not good enough.  But also, if someone has information on other types of call-site optimization no matter the programming language, please let me know.
2021-01-06T08:01:58Z beach: There are now some figures as well that might help communicating the idea.
2021-01-06T08:07:07Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-06T08:08:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T08:09:02Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T08:12:29Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:14:59Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:16:33Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:17:09Z lottaquestions_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-06T08:17:40Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:18:13Z frodef plan to read beach's paper soonish.
2021-01-06T08:18:17Z ggoes quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T08:19:09Z beach: Thanks.  I appreciate it.
2021-01-06T08:19:36Z beach: It subsumes your technique with multiple entry points according to the number of arguments, for instance.
2021-01-06T08:23:20Z sunset_NOVA joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:26:07Z ggoes joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:27:52Z frodef: beach: sounds interesting, now I just need to get my printer to connect to the network, sigh.
2021-01-06T08:28:17Z beach: I see.  I hate that kind of stuff.
2021-01-06T08:29:01Z frodef: now add: the wiring up in the crawlspace, which is now at -15 degrees...
2021-01-06T08:29:38Z frodef: ...so if I have any comments for you later, I hope you /really/ appreciate them ;-)
2021-01-06T08:29:53Z beach: Heh, yes, I understand.
2021-01-06T08:30:11Z beach: Where do you live these days?  I didn't realize it was that cold.
2021-01-06T08:30:30Z frodef: there was just a substantial temperature drop in oslo.
2021-01-06T08:30:37Z beach: Oh, wow.
2021-01-06T08:34:26Z splittist: phoe's interview on 47degrees (47signals? 47syscalls?) was great. The interviewer was engaging - staying out of the way, but giving nice reaction shots. I was surprised to see rainbow parens, for some reason.
2021-01-06T08:34:50Z jonathan| quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T08:38:16Z beach: I agree it was very good.
2021-01-06T08:43:10Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:43:10Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-06T08:43:10Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:46:34Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:52:04Z jonathan| joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:52:36Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:54:04Z pyc_ is now known as pyc
2021-01-06T08:54:15Z pyc quit (Changing host)
2021-01-06T08:54:16Z pyc joined #lisp
2021-01-06T08:57:13Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T08:59:52Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-06T09:00:32Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T09:02:14Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-06T09:05:43Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T09:05:48Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T09:06:08Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T09:07:01Z dim: typo alert: “This optimization was introduced by Gerd Moellmann in 2002, and has since been includes also in SBCL” <-- includes/included
2021-01-06T09:07:17Z beach: Thanks.
2021-01-06T09:08:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-06T09:08:32Z beach: Fixed!
2021-01-06T09:10:17Z dim: wow that's a nice round-trip latency ;-)
2021-01-06T09:10:31Z beach: Heh, thanks!
2021-01-06T09:11:10Z dim: I like what I'm reading so far, it makes me feel like I'm smart enough to understand what you're talking about ;-) also I wonder if boa-constructors belong to the topic in some ways?
2021-01-06T09:12:10Z beach: Oh, didn't think of those.  I'll have a look.  Thanks for the hint.  They may fall into the same category as MAKE-INSTANCE.
2021-01-06T09:13:02Z beach: I am thinking that, with this technique, Common Lisp could have function calls as fast as (or faster than) those in static programming languages.
2021-01-06T09:13:19Z beach: Doesn't dynamic linking require at least one indirection for function calls?
2021-01-06T09:13:28Z beach: I know access to global variables does.
2021-01-06T09:13:51Z dim: tyop-of-a-kind alert: “but it crucially allows us” -- try using “and” instead of “but”, if the meaning of the sentence is kept, then you certainly would better use “and”
2021-01-06T09:14:59Z beach: I'll add an "also" instead.
2021-01-06T09:15:05Z beach: That's more like what I meant.
2021-01-06T09:15:26Z dim: dynamic linking would do that yeah, and it's a complete mess (in C at least) if you ever load more than once, or if you can't find the symbol the code expects to find... openssl in particular is a trouble maker in that space, the CFFI bindings for CL are a constant hurdle
2021-01-06T09:15:55Z dim: the proof reader of my book often replaced and/also with “moreover” which I ended-up liking a lot
2021-01-06T09:16:46Z beach: OK, that's a good hint.  Thanks.
2021-01-06T09:17:01Z dim: also I think a part of what you're talking about in your paper would be typically implemented in C like systems by the linker phase of compilation, right?
2021-01-06T09:17:46Z beach: I think link-time optimization is a kludge to compensate for the lack of information resulting from separate compilation, yes.
2021-01-06T09:18:04Z dim: I mean each .c file is used to produce a .o object file, with a map of function entry-points, and then the linker's job is to concatenate them all together and edit a new “global” map of entry points for the final binary, at least that's my understanding
2021-01-06T09:18:31Z beach: Traditional static languages have really made a mess of everything, just because they insist on making us believe that we are programming slow machines without an operating system.
2021-01-06T09:18:54Z dim: ahah that's a good one
2021-01-06T09:19:40Z dim: or maybe because Unix was meant as a quite dumbed down OS to boot (not as complex as the Multics beast) and then became the standard expectation for an OS layer?
2021-01-06T09:19:45Z beach: We (Common Lisp programmers) are lucky in that we always have the entire code for the system immediately available.  We now just have to take advantage of that fact.
2021-01-06T09:20:27Z beach: Unix was meant to be as large a subset as possible of Multics that would also run on a PDP-11.
2021-01-06T09:20:34Z beach: Or was it PDP 8?
2021-01-06T09:20:47Z dim: I began to understand what Stallman meant with the 4 rights of the GPL when I started hacking Emacs Lisp, that's where I first had that experience you're alluding to I suppose
2021-01-06T09:21:27Z beach: I don't see the relation, sorry.
2021-01-06T09:21:35Z dim: I mean having the whole “system” code available and easily recompiled at run-time makes it obvious that you want to have the right to study and edit the code
2021-01-06T09:21:43Z beach: Ah, yes, I see.
2021-01-06T09:23:30Z dim: when using Unix and say “apt install tmux” or whatever software, if you want to look at the code you need to “apt source tmux” and that needs a specific source entry in your sources list, and then if you want to edit the code and recompile it you need “apt-get build-dep tmux” and then with debian you actually have a good chance you can build your custom program, thanks debian, and still it is quite complex
2021-01-06T09:23:49Z dim: in Emacs and then in Common Lisp, you just C-. on the symbol and hack away, C-c C-c, and benefit now
2021-01-06T09:23:53Z beach: I should re-read my (signed) copy of "Linkers and Loaders".  If there is an indirection for function calls, I can include that fact in the paper.
2021-01-06T09:24:26Z beach: Sure.  But that's not quite what I meant.  I meant that we don't have separate compilation.
2021-01-06T09:24:50Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T09:24:51Z dim: I though we had compilation units of sorts?
2021-01-06T09:25:12Z beach: But they don't start with an empty global environment the way C and C++ do.
2021-01-06T09:25:14Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T09:25:48Z beach: And once they are loaded into the system, they are present just like the rest of the system, and can be transformed, since we have the compiler available at run-time.
2021-01-06T09:26:53Z beach: Before link-time optimization, those languages had to fill up the environment using includes for each compilation, and they have to produce object code without knowing the rest of the system.
2021-01-06T09:27:13Z dim: ah yeah, the empty global env and the #include and pre-processor thing still makes me sad/mad
2021-01-06T09:28:20Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-06T09:28:30Z Nilby: When I ran lisp on a pdp8 it was the whole OS booted off a floopy. But then the pdp8 was also a desk.
2021-01-06T09:28:53Z phoe: splittist: I love rainbow parens
2021-01-06T09:29:57Z VincentVega quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T09:31:35Z splittist: phoe: interesting
2021-01-06T09:31:42Z Nilby: phoe: thanks for the awesome talk on 47˚, you made me realize i didn't have a retry restart in my repl.
2021-01-06T09:35:37Z phoe: Nilby: gasp! what REPL do you use?
2021-01-06T09:36:42Z phoe: splittist: my eyes react very well to colors, rainbow parens give me additional depth information, especially with this six-color palette that I got used to after some years
2021-01-06T09:36:53Z phoe: but that's already the category of personal lifehacks
2021-01-06T09:37:00Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-06T09:37:23Z Nilby: phoe: a crappy one i wrote, gasp
2021-01-06T09:37:46Z phoe: oh! so you can add the restart yourself easily
2021-01-06T09:38:00Z Nilby: i did :)
2021-01-06T09:38:04Z phoe: :D
2021-01-06T09:38:41Z Nilby: but 'retry it is actually in sb-ext
2021-01-06T09:39:00Z phoe: actually, it can be in any package you want or need
2021-01-06T09:39:20Z phoe: you can fetch the symbol itself via restart-name if needed
2021-01-06T09:40:05Z phoe: if you use string= for comparing restart names, then you can match FOO:RETRY, BAR:RETRY, SB-EXT:RETRY, and what else
2021-01-06T09:40:18Z phoe: e.g. the slime debugger doesn't show packages of restart names
2021-01-06T09:41:14Z Nilby: I guess I could change the debugger not to show package names. Now that I'm further in the video, I see you wrote your own debugger too.
2021-01-06T09:41:16Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T09:41:31Z ex_nihilo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T09:41:37Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/portable-condition-system
2021-01-06T09:44:26Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T09:46:47Z phoe: spice it up with trivial-custom-debugger and you can install a custom debugger mostly anywhere
2021-01-06T09:47:57Z beach: phoe: Do you have any feedback from people other than Common Lisp programmers on the video?
2021-01-06T09:48:08Z beach: I had to leave early, so I didn't see the end of the chat.
2021-01-06T09:48:43Z beach: I mean, I don't know what crowd was to be expected, given the topic, and the "channel".
2021-01-06T09:49:00Z phoe: beach: not much, but it was good overall
2021-01-06T09:49:11Z beach: Great!
2021-01-06T09:49:33Z phoe: glad to have the video out there so it can pick up on popularity in an asynchronous manner.
2021-01-06T09:53:31Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T09:56:08Z kaftejiman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T09:58:13Z ralt: dim: fyi this came out yesterday https://www.timmons.dev/posts/static-executables-with-sbcl.html
2021-01-06T09:58:15Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-06T09:58:25Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T09:58:41Z dim: thanks!
2021-01-06T09:59:06Z beach: ralt: Can you give a quick explanation of the purpose of this work, other than putting SBCL inside the kernel?
2021-01-06T09:59:39Z ralt: beach: this one is unrelated to the kernel, see the first paragraph under "Background"
2021-01-06T09:59:52Z beach: Thanks!
2021-01-06T09:59:54Z ralt: and it's done by etimmons, not me :)
2021-01-06T10:00:14Z beach: Yes, I know.  But you mentioned that the work is related.
2021-01-06T10:01:08Z dim: the context I have for such tools in general is how to deliver an application binary to users who don't care that it's been written in Common Lisp
2021-01-06T10:01:16Z beach: ralt: OK, got it.  Thanks!
2021-01-06T10:01:27Z beach: Makes sense.
2021-01-06T10:01:38Z ralt: dim: that's exactly why I pinged you, given pgloader
2021-01-06T10:01:39Z dim: we seem in the CL community to be quite hermetic, we seem to avoid delivering what we do to people who are not CL users/hackers themselves
2021-01-06T10:01:55Z beach: ... but then they are all going to complain that "Hello world!" takes tens of megabytes.
2021-01-06T10:01:58Z dim: we're missing a lot of infra to make it simple to use software written in CL as a non-CL or a non-programmer end user
2021-01-06T10:02:06Z ralt: agreed. that's why I made linux-packaging.
2021-01-06T10:02:16Z dim: beach: not anymore, see Go builds and Rust and others, people are getting used to it
2021-01-06T10:02:25Z beach: Oh, good! :)
2021-01-06T10:02:29Z dim: ralt: +1, thanks for that, I need to dive into it someday
2021-01-06T10:02:54Z ralt: dim: to be fair, Go and Rust builds are a couple of MBs, not tens :P
2021-01-06T10:02:58Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T10:03:03Z ralt: but yes, people care less.
2021-01-06T10:03:12Z dim: well then compare to docker images maybe
2021-01-06T10:03:36Z ralt: hehehe
2021-01-06T10:03:48Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-06T10:04:08Z dim: I am nowadays working on a tool named pg_auto_failover, written in C, the main binary is 1MB large, and the minimum docker image based on debian that I could make is around 280MB
2021-01-06T10:04:45Z ralt: does pg work in alpine those days?
2021-01-06T10:04:59Z ralt: alpine docker images are ~6MB iirc
2021-01-06T10:05:22Z ik` joined #lisp
2021-01-06T10:05:38Z dim: yeah I could use alpine too, but then it's not the same libc and reasons-reasons, I did not
2021-01-06T10:05:56Z ralt: fair enough
2021-01-06T10:06:58Z ik` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T10:07:11Z ralt: speaking of postgresql, I recently (a few months ago) found out about multicorn
2021-01-06T10:07:26Z ralt: I so want to redo it with ECL.
2021-01-06T10:08:08Z ralt: maybe you could rewrite pg_auto_failover in Lisp :P
2021-01-06T10:26:38Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T10:27:29Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T10:27:58Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T10:28:23Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T10:28:35Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-06T10:33:46Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-06T10:33:55Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T10:34:47Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-06T10:34:47Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-06T10:34:47Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-06T10:35:02Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T10:35:13Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-06T10:42:19Z frost-lab joined #lisp
2021-01-06T10:48:49Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T10:49:13Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T10:52:25Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T10:52:47Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-06T10:54:29Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T10:54:58Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-06T10:58:24Z vutral quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-06T10:59:17Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T11:02:13Z dim: my colleagues and the Postgres community at large would not appreciate that, even Python was out: we want to make it dead simple to install and use the product, and focus on having the same set of dependencies (build and run-time) as Postgres itself
2021-01-06T11:02:58Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:04:02Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:07:25Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T11:08:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:10:22Z pyc: I am using SBCL. I don't need to install Quicklisp to get "uiop". Am I right about this? (require "uiop") seems to work for me. Is this guaranteed to work in any SBCL implementation?
2021-01-06T11:10:48Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:10:53Z phoe: pyc: SBCL bundles ASDF and UIOP
2021-01-06T11:11:06Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:11:06Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-06T11:11:06Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:11:09Z pyc: phoe: thanks!
2021-01-06T11:11:47Z phoe: but there's a question of which version it bundles!
2021-01-06T11:12:00Z pyc: phoe: how do I figure the version number?
2021-01-06T11:12:23Z ralt: (asdf:asdf-version) I think?
2021-01-06T11:12:24Z jackdaniel: mind that not putting "uiop" in :depends-on of your system may break executables that are not produced with save-lisp-and-die
2021-01-06T11:13:02Z jackdaniel: also fact that it is preloaded means, that if you want to bundle uiop with your sources, you must download it manually (because asdf won't complain that the system is not present, hence quicklisp won't download it)
2021-01-06T11:17:11Z sunset_NOVA quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-06T11:18:41Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-06T11:18:46Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:19:33Z dim: ralt: do you know if the method outlined in https://www.timmons.dev/posts/static-executables-with-sbcl.html would be compliant with static-linking openssl and sqlite, and maybe other code?
2021-01-06T11:20:30Z fc2020apt[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:30Z dieggsy quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:31Z arichiardi[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:31Z quanta[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:31Z cairn quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:32Z psebcc[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:32Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:32Z ThaEwat quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:32Z malaclyps_ quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:33Z DanielCheng[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:33Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:34Z katco quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:35Z raamdev[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:35Z infra_red[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:35Z santiagopim[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:35Z kaisyu[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:36Z solideogloria[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:36Z dmiles[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:36Z loke[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:36Z etimmons quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:36Z jonas[m]1 quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:36Z zstest3[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:39Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 266 seconds)
2021-01-06T11:20:40Z exit70[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:40Z even4void[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:41Z ckoz[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:41Z susam quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:20:43Z dim: ralt: I would also like to see PL/CL same way we have PL/Python in Postgres ; and I think it's going to be more complex, because ideally we might want to have a single CL image running in the background in the Postgres process tree, and each Postgres backend would have its own CL thread that can communicate with the central image application / objects
2021-01-06T11:21:08Z emys[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:21:08Z clar[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:21:08Z ms[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:21:09Z keizerrijk[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-06T11:22:17Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:23:37Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T11:24:01Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:24:19Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T11:25:13Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T11:29:56Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:30:20Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:30:25Z dabr joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:30:48Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:33:52Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:34:51Z VincentVega: beach: I think it's just the reality of the language and how you accept it. A value in question is treated in boolean terms: as nil or non-nil. That non-nil happens to be treated as t is just the fact of the language. Quirky? Maybe. Surprising? Even newcomers are doing it.
2021-01-06T11:35:01Z VincentVega: beach: And the nature of a surprise is, you see it once, and it isn't a surprise anymore.
2021-01-06T11:35:15Z VincentVega: beach: Moreover, I would say that judging lisp code with its custom dsls based on the surprise factor is a bit unfair in the first place. I will go as far as to say it is counter to lisp's philosophy. Macros let you get succinctness. If succinctness buys you power of expression at the cost of immediate understandability, then you just learn how a
2021-01-06T11:35:16Z VincentVega: construct works and that's a positive tradeoff in the long run.
2021-01-06T11:35:24Z VincentVega: beach: "The NIL value is not a Boolean": not what the hyperspec says "The type boolean contains the symbols t and nil, which represent true and false, respectively."
2021-01-06T11:37:37Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T11:38:26Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:39:04Z phoe: VincentVega: it's not a question of what the language accepts but a question of what the programmer expects
2021-01-06T11:40:14Z VincentVega: phoe: yes, this is what I account for
2021-01-06T11:40:19Z phoe: NIL is a symbol, a boolean, a list, a sequence, and a T all at once, and code that provides appropriate operations on that help fix the resulting confusion
2021-01-06T11:42:26Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T11:42:44Z VincentVega: I don't think there's any confusion there. It's a question of habit.
2021-01-06T11:43:44Z VincentVega: My point is, if a programmer writes in a language, then a programmer has to come to terms with what a language can do if he doesn't want to be working against it.
2021-01-06T11:45:54Z Nilby: Lisp seems to make it so I'm only really working against myself (and time and physics).
2021-01-06T11:46:18Z phoe: yes, and there's also the question of the social layer atop a language
2021-01-06T11:46:25Z VincentVega: I mean, would you seriously prefer (or (null a) (null b) (null c)) to (and a b c)?
2021-01-06T11:47:01Z phoe: depends on context :D
2021-01-06T11:47:25Z phoe: the social layer is why e.g. some C++ projects disallow exceptions even though they're, in theory, a part of standard C++
2021-01-06T11:47:26Z jackdaniel: stylistic suggestions from norvig's style guide are just that - suggestions
2021-01-06T11:47:54Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-06T11:47:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T11:48:05Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: you may find this amusing: https://ashwinram.org/1986/01/28/a-short-ballad-dedicated-to-the-growth-of-programs/
2021-01-06T11:48:31Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:48:43Z VincentVega: suggestions can be unfounded at times
2021-01-06T11:48:47Z VincentVega: thanks I'll read it
2021-01-06T11:49:42Z Oddity- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T11:49:55Z jmercouris: I'm using this library: https://github.com/andy128k/cl-gobject-introspection
2021-01-06T11:49:56Z VincentVega: phoe: if there's any social layer to this issue it all, I am pretty sure that you will find a lot more (when value ...)'s than unless nulls
2021-01-06T11:49:58Z jackdaniel: most remarks I've found in the norvig's document had a very good rationale behind them - you may disagree, still you should take it into consideration
2021-01-06T11:50:02Z Oddity joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:50:10Z jmercouris: I'm looking at the example at the very top " (gir:nget *gtk* "WindowType" :toplevel)"
2021-01-06T11:50:33Z jmercouris: how do they know that WindowType exists? Is there a way to list the arguments that 'new for class Window accepts?
2021-01-06T11:51:00Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:24Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:24Z cairn joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:24Z psebcc[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:24Z emys[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:24Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z exit70[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z malaclyps_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:25Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:26Z raamdev[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:26Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:27Z tolko-zhenshiny[ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:30Z DanielCheng[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:30Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:31Z clar[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:31Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:31Z ckoz[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:32Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:32Z keizerrijk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:33Z zstest3[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T11:51:33Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: i am not criticizing their whole document, i haven't read it, just this one thing i happened to see mentioned here yesterday
2021-01-06T11:51:59Z jmercouris: nget-desc?
2021-01-06T11:52:37Z jackdaniel: I'm not saying you do, I'm suggesting that you may benefit from reading rationale behind this particular one thing (and then disagree :) I personally agree with you, that there is no harm in writing (when foo …)
2021-01-06T11:52:50Z jackdaniel: that said I find myself usually using (when-let … …)
2021-01-06T11:55:20Z VincentVega: If I saw the rationale on it, I would've read it, just seemed like a slide with bullet-points to me. But yes, I'll probably be reading up on it : )
2021-01-06T11:57:32Z jackdaniel: I've got curious myself and tried to find this particular advice in the document, but I've failed. the only part is that you should be specific (and, or for boolean value only, when/unless for statements, if for expressions and cond for multi-branch statement/expression
2021-01-06T11:59:20Z VincentVega: I see. As for and/or thing, by the way, the (and (numberp x) (cos x)) isn't even a real example unless cos can suddenly yield a nil.
2021-01-06T11:59:40Z VincentVega: like, common, they made this stuff up, just for the sake of a slide
2021-01-06T12:01:02Z jackdaniel: I saw code like this, the first clause in and is to ensure the proper type, and the second is called for the value
2021-01-06T12:01:21Z v3ga: ...
2021-01-06T12:01:30Z jackdaniel: i.e (let ((name (and window (window-name "foo"))) …)
2021-01-06T12:01:44Z jmercouris: s/common/come on
2021-01-06T12:01:56Z VincentVega: actually yes, thinking about it, (and condition (error ..)) i did a couple of times too. well, fine.
2021-01-06T12:02:46Z jackdaniel: my example should be if, and your example should be when :)
2021-01-06T12:03:12Z jackdaniel: either way, time to get to double buffering in mcclim, see you later
2021-01-06T12:03:36Z VincentVega: the need for specificity of when/if i do agree with
2021-01-06T12:03:45Z VincentVega: yeah, c ya : )
2021-01-06T12:06:13Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T12:07:13Z Stanley00 quit
2021-01-06T12:11:02Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-06T12:15:57Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-06T12:16:02Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T12:16:11Z ralt: dim not sure about openssl, etimmons might know. For sqlite I don't see it as hard, at worse you can compile it as part of your build.
2021-01-06T12:17:11Z ralt: I did that here https://gitlab.com/ralt/ballish if you look at the .asd file
2021-01-06T12:18:22Z ralt: (so it's already doable with asdf:static-program-op)
2021-01-06T12:20:13Z ralt: The lisp in postgres thing is interesting... I wonder if you need pl/lisp at all.
2021-01-06T12:20:32Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-06T12:20:34Z ralt: Like what if it exposes a swank server
2021-01-06T12:21:53Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-06T12:23:48Z ralt: This sounds like doable pretty quickly with ECL even
2021-01-06T12:28:12Z etimmons: dim: I have used that method with openssl. Haven't yet extensively tested it, but no issues so far.
2021-01-06T12:30:05Z nij left #lisp
2021-01-06T12:32:10Z FennecCode quit (Quit: IRCNow and Forever!)
2021-01-06T12:32:30Z beach: VincentVega: You keep referring to language semantics, whereas I am talking about software engineering and maintainability.  As you know if you are a professional programmer, the language you should use for good maintainability is a tiny subset of the semantically acceptable language.
2021-01-06T12:33:46Z beach: VincentVega: But I guess you must have way more experience than Pitman and Norvig.  I certainly don't, so I rely on their wisdom go guide things like that.
2021-01-06T12:34:44Z beach: What phoe also said.
2021-01-06T12:37:17Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T12:37:34Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-06T12:39:48Z beach: Also, even though I have seen constructs such as (WHEN EVENT ...) more than once, I am still not only surprised when I see such a construct.  I have to pause several seconds to figure out what it means.  So I seem to correspond to the people they are referring to in their document.
2021-01-06T12:39:50Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T12:40:37Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-06T12:40:37Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T12:42:12Z beach: VincentVega: You are of course free to write whatever you like.  But when people show their code here in order to get feedback on it, I will continue to point out that such constructs are considered not so great in the eyes of highly experienced and very knowledgeable programmers such as Norvig and Pitman.
2021-01-06T12:42:24Z dim: etimmons: thanks, might try it sometime!
2021-01-06T12:43:18Z j0nd0e quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-06T12:43:27Z jackdaniel: beach: I've mentioned that above that I couldn't find that particular advice in the document, do you happen to remember the page it could be found on?
2021-01-06T12:43:51Z beach: That precise example is probably not in there.
2021-01-06T12:44:42Z jackdaniel: OK
2021-01-06T12:44:45Z beach: But I know that the reason I jump when I see it is the same reason I jump when I see the (counter-) examples on page 13.
2021-01-06T12:45:04Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T12:45:45Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-06T12:45:52Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T12:46:28Z jackdaniel: it could be argued (and that would be still not contradict the document), that using generalized booleans as a test in whend/unless is still specific; I gather that you disagree with that
2021-01-06T12:46:37Z jackdaniel: s/whend/when/
2021-01-06T12:47:12Z phoe: when/unless are a bit less affected by NOT NULL than e.g. IF and COND
2021-01-06T12:47:40Z phoe: because (when/unless (not (null x)) ...) == (unless/when (null x) ...)
2021-01-06T12:47:53Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-06T12:49:34Z ralt: jmercouris: I would assume you'd need to look at gobject docs
2021-01-06T12:49:50Z beach: Here is how I see that particular example.  A function is called that can return an event or a default value that is not an event.  You want to do something only when an event is returned.  You then have two choices.  You check whether you have an event and you say (WHEN (EVENTP EVENT) ...) or something similar, or you check for the default and you say (UNLESS (DEFAULT-VALUE-P EVENT) ...).  It is a coincidence that DEFAULT-VALUE-P and
2021-01-06T12:49:50Z beach: NULL happen to be the same in this case.
2021-01-06T12:50:46Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T12:51:00Z beach: Yet another way of seeing it is to notice how much you have to change your code if the function did not return NIL as the default value but instead, say :NOT-AN-EVENT.
2021-01-06T12:51:32Z ralt: jmercouris: sorry, gtk docs https://valadoc.org/gtk+-3.0/Gtk.WindowType.html
2021-01-06T12:51:47Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T12:51:48Z matijja``` is now known as matijja
2021-01-06T12:53:59Z beach: The opinion that can be summarized as "anything the language specification allows is OK to write" is very strange to me.  Perhaps someone did not say it that literally, but many of the opinions I see boil down to that.
2021-01-06T12:54:46Z chrpape quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T12:54:48Z VincentVega: beach: On the contrary, I mostly based my opinion on the philosophy behind the language + the fact that while succinctness costs you "surprise", the surprise wears off.
2021-01-06T12:55:16Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T12:55:16Z VincentVega: beach: Appeal to authority? Man, no need to get all caustic about it : )
2021-01-06T12:55:46Z beach: Not authority.  Experience.
2021-01-06T12:55:58Z jackdaniel: I agree that when you may be specific with eventp it is clearly better; by mentioning generalized booleans I've meant a difference between (when (not (null X)) …) versus (when X …)
2021-01-06T12:56:00Z VincentVega: right
2021-01-06T12:56:01Z beach: I am not going to continue this argument, because I have said what I want so many times in the past.  It is getting boring.
2021-01-06T12:56:09Z VincentVega: agreed there
2021-01-06T12:56:30Z beach: jackdaniel: The alternative is (unless (null X) ...) not (when (not (null X))).
2021-01-06T12:56:36Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: I recommend you to read some SICL code written by beach - it is very clearly written and easy to read; that may be a good indicator that it is not appeal to authority but rather a practical advice
2021-01-06T12:56:47Z jackdaniel: beach: ah, OK
2021-01-06T12:58:06Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:00:24Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-06T13:01:17Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: I hear you.
2021-01-06T13:11:39Z jmercouris: ralt: thanks Florian, that's what I've been doing
2021-01-06T13:11:48Z jmercouris: ralt: just wondering if there was a built-in introspection mechansim for listing...
2021-01-06T13:12:23Z jmercouris: I've had luck with slime-inspect-presentation-at-point on the result of (gir:nget *gtk* "Xyz" 'method)
2021-01-06T13:12:44Z jmercouris: (gir:nget *gtk* "Xyz" 'method) returns a closure of all things :-D
2021-01-06T13:14:14Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-06T13:18:13Z flazh1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T13:21:09Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-06T13:21:45Z flazh1 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:23:16Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T13:24:01Z dabr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T13:28:05Z phoe6 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:28:52Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:33:26Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:39:49Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:45:31Z bitmapper_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:47:40Z dbotton_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:48:04Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6)
2021-01-06T13:48:08Z dbotton__ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:49:45Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-06T13:49:50Z dbotton__ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-06T13:50:24Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:50:41Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:52:13Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-06T13:52:24Z pyc: just like there is uiop:read-file-string is there an equivalent of uiop:write-file-string?
2021-01-06T13:53:36Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:55:03Z bitmapper_ is now known as bitmapper
2021-01-06T13:55:27Z phoe: alexandria:write-string-into-file
2021-01-06T13:56:46Z phoe: there's uiop:call-with-output-file
2021-01-06T13:57:25Z phoe: I assume you can (call-with-output-file pathname (alexandria:curry #'princ string))
2021-01-06T13:57:37Z gareppa joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:58:40Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T13:58:58Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T13:59:12Z Xach uses setf for that sometimes
2021-01-06T13:59:22Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-06T13:59:24Z phoe: setf?
2021-01-06T13:59:32Z Xach: (setf (file-contents file) data) or similar
2021-01-06T14:00:10Z phoe: there is no #'(SETF UIOP:READ-FILE-STRING) though
2021-01-06T14:00:20Z phoe: hmmm
2021-01-06T14:00:33Z Xach: Very true. I define my own as needed.
2021-01-06T14:02:50Z ralt: Never thought of using setf for that
2021-01-06T14:04:14Z v_m_v quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T14:04:56Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-06T14:06:01Z Xach: i remember the discussion of a unix interface that did stuff like (setf (uid user) 42) and did the work underneath to update the system to reflect what's desired, rather than getting hung up on what might be possible only through simple operations
2021-01-06T14:06:03Z pyc: alexandria does not be present in SBCL but uiop is present. does alexandria need to be installed separately?
2021-01-06T14:06:11Z Xach: pyc: yes
2021-01-06T14:06:16Z pyc: thanks
2021-01-06T14:06:43Z Xach: UIOP is a separate library that is provided with sbcl, but alexandria is a separate library that is not
2021-01-06T14:07:18Z ralt: Well for file operations I'm rather concerned on memory usage
2021-01-06T14:07:30Z ralt: You know, memory is typically much more bounded than disk
2021-01-06T14:07:46Z Xach: setting the file contents is much simpler than changing a user uid but it did inspire me to think about presenting straightforward interfaces to possibly complex and multi-step operations.
2021-01-06T14:07:51Z ralt: For (uid user) that's actually a pretty good idea
2021-01-06T14:08:29Z ralt: In my abstraction world, a file is a stream, and you can't setf a stream
2021-01-06T14:08:39Z Xach: and also that SETF doesn't have to mutate a binding or an in-memory thing
2021-01-06T14:09:38Z phoe: (setf pi 3.2d0) ;; for Lisp code running in Indiana
2021-01-06T14:09:57Z Xach: ralt: a disk is a two dimensional array of bits, 8 by 8,796,093,022,208!
2021-01-06T14:10:50Z phoe: ralt: (defclass file () ...) (defmethod contents ((file)) ...) (defmethod (setf contents) (new-value (file file)) ...)
2021-01-06T14:11:23Z phoe: in this world, a file is an instance, and you can call a generic function with it as an argument
2021-01-06T14:11:44Z ralt: Yes, sure. My point is just that typically, you don't fit all your disk in your memory, so it's easier to treat files as streams
2021-01-06T14:12:04Z phoe: why fit them in memory
2021-01-06T14:12:21Z phoe: or rather
2021-01-06T14:12:28Z phoe: why need to fit one kind of memory in another kind of memory
2021-01-06T14:12:34Z ralt: If you do a setf content, it means you have content in-memory
2021-01-06T14:12:37Z phoe: no
2021-01-06T14:12:46Z phoe: it means whatever #'(setf content) does under the hood
2021-01-06T14:13:04Z ralt: Of course, you don't _have to_
2021-01-06T14:13:15Z phoe: that's encapsulation - you don't need to care whether the real stuff is in RAM, hard disk, over the network, or hand-calligraphied onto a piece of paper
2021-01-06T14:13:24Z ralt: Just like you don't have to have a disk bigger than your ram
2021-01-06T14:13:32Z ralt: I'm talking about the typical case, though
2021-01-06T14:13:55Z phoe: all you care is that #'CONTENTS returns it for you as a string and that #'(SETF CONTENTS), after accepting a string, modifies the state of this thing so that future calls to #'CONTENTS return the new string
2021-01-06T14:14:02Z phoe: s/all you care/all you need to care/
2021-01-06T14:14:04Z ralt: You made me remember something fun
2021-01-06T14:14:25Z ralt: Encapsulation is great until reality comes down to punch you in the face
2021-01-06T14:15:11Z phoe: I'm not saying that encapsulating all the things is a good idea
2021-01-06T14:15:26Z phoe: I'm just saying that SETF is not required to operate solely on RAM contents
2021-01-06T14:15:41Z phoe: or even solely on the contents of your machine's volatile and non-volatile memory
2021-01-06T14:15:46Z dabr joined #lisp
2021-01-06T14:17:25Z phoe: I imagine that you could (setf (system::cpu-fan-speed 0) 300) to set the fan speed of the 0th fan of your machine to 300 RPM
2021-01-06T14:17:25Z Nilby: a lot of setf'able OS things require root, I haven't fixed the forker yet, and I don't even know how to do it on windows.
2021-01-06T14:18:18Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-06T14:18:22Z phoe: all you need to do on Windows is to exploit your way into kernelspace and then use it to kexec() Linux
2021-01-06T14:18:30Z phoe hides
2021-01-06T14:20:31Z Nilby: if wsl was default installed, i'd consider it
2021-01-06T14:21:06Z dim: it's available by default in the windows store on all windows 10 devices, I think, right?
2021-01-06T14:22:13Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-06T14:28:58Z thecoffemaker quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T14:32:57Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp
2021-01-06T14:34:54Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T14:35:44Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T14:36:01Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T14:36:30Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T14:41:28Z fitzsim joined #lisp
2021-01-06T14:54:12Z sunset_NOVA joined #lisp
2021-01-06T14:58:39Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-06T14:59:03Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-06T15:02:02Z pfdietz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T15:02:20Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-06T15:06:47Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-06T15:22:50Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-06T15:26:09Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-06T15:26:36Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-06T15:29:59Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T15:34:46Z phoe6 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-06T15:36:55Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-06T15:37:11Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-06T15:37:23Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T15:41:54Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-06T15:42:18Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T15:42:47Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-06T15:46:25Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T15:49:35Z alexcutie quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-06T15:54:59Z dabr quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-06T15:56:26Z makomo quit (Changing host)
2021-01-06T15:56:26Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-06T15:57:29Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-06T15:57:50Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-06T15:58:18Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-06T15:59:28Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-06T16:00:34Z makomo quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-06T16:04:17Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-06T16:05:03Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-06T16:07:33Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T16:13:42Z ex_nihilo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T16:19:16Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp
2021-01-06T16:20:02Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-06T16:27:20Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-06T16:29:52Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T16:33:07Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-06T16:38:17Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T16:42:56Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T16:47:13Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T16:49:06Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T16:50:07Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T16:54:53Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-06T16:58:19Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-06T16:59:41Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:02:03Z chrpape joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:02:59Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-01-06T17:09:31Z ym joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:13:21Z stzsch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T17:16:08Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:17:41Z stzsch joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:18:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-06T17:20:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:21:43Z sunset_NOVA quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-06T17:25:03Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-06T17:26:07Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:26:10Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-06T17:29:01Z failproofshark joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:29:18Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:31:30Z failproofshark: i apologize if this has been asked before but is there an html parsing library for CL similar to python's beautiful soup?
2021-01-06T17:32:01Z failproofshark: i asked in #lispweb before but i'm not sure if it was answered as I had to log out before a reply was given (and I don't know if that channel has readable logs)
2021-01-06T17:34:32Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:34:58Z phoe: failproofshark: XML parsers exist
2021-01-06T17:35:02Z phoe: I use Plump
2021-01-06T17:35:25Z ecm: failproofshark: you can use any xml parser for html parsing
2021-01-06T17:35:32Z phoe: it seems to do what you want... you can then use e.g. lquery to inspect the resulting DOM
2021-01-06T17:35:58Z ecm: plump is nice, haven't looked into any other ones
2021-01-06T17:37:33Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:40:13Z nij left #lisp
2021-01-06T17:40:34Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-06T17:42:24Z travv0: I’ll “third” the plump recommendation
2021-01-06T17:48:02Z ecm quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-06T17:48:24Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-06T17:50:52Z vaporatorius__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T17:52:22Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T17:52:37Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:52:40Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:53:52Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T17:58:37Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-06T17:58:58Z j0nd0e quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T17:59:48Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:03:45Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-06T18:05:13Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:05:25Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T18:06:35Z jasom:  failproofshark I don't know if it has readable logs either, but I said "plump" in that channel after you logged out just in case
2021-01-06T18:10:14Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:12:16Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-06T18:23:37Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:24:14Z surabax_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:25:50Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:28:07Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T18:28:23Z nij` joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:29:27Z nij`: I try to customize stumpwm, but get stuck while I'm importing packages into my config. The error is given here.. https://bpa.st/BXOA
2021-01-06T18:29:28Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T18:30:29Z phoe: well, the error is self-explaining
2021-01-06T18:30:43Z phoe: something is trying to load an ASD file and that file doesn't exist
2021-01-06T18:30:46Z nij`: Yeah, but when I interact with it from SLIME, it doesn't happen @@
2021-01-06T18:31:26Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T18:31:54Z phoe: hmmmm
2021-01-06T18:32:12Z phoe: (asdf:system-source-directory :cl-unicode)
2021-01-06T18:32:15Z phoe: what does it say in slime?
2021-01-06T18:33:26Z nij`: #P"/home/nij/.+PLUGS/Local/.quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-unicode-20190521-git/"
2021-01-06T18:34:59Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:35:05Z phoe: so it correctly resolves the system location
2021-01-06T18:35:13Z phoe: whereas stumpwm doesn't
2021-01-06T18:35:23Z phoe: I wonder why
2021-01-06T18:35:38Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T18:37:00Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:37:19Z nij`: cl-launch.asd is the only file presented in /usr/share/common-lisp/systems
2021-01-06T18:39:03Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:39:04Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T18:39:36Z phoe: likely your stumpwm doesn't have the Quicklisp ASDF directories configured
2021-01-06T18:39:45Z phoe: don't know how exactly to solve it
2021-01-06T18:42:44Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:42:45Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:43:13Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T18:44:38Z nij` is now known as nij
2021-01-06T18:48:35Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-06T18:48:58Z kaftejiman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T18:51:42Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:53:08Z travv0: nij if I remember correctly, I had that same error way back when I first set up stumpwm. when I’m back at a computer I’ll check my config to see if I can tell what I did to get it working
2021-01-06T18:53:42Z nij: travv0: phoe: thank you folks :D
2021-01-06T18:55:55Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T18:57:53Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T18:57:54Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-06T18:58:25Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T19:02:05Z jasom: Someone on reddit asked about mixing C++ and Lisp, with the example of doing a GUI in C++.  I couldn't quickly find a simple example, so I wrote one: https://git.sr.ht/~jasom/qt-lisp-gui/tree
2021-01-06T19:02:12Z nij: I used pacman to get stumpwm, and this seems to be why.
2021-01-06T19:02:34Z nij: I will remove it and compile from scratch.
2021-01-06T19:02:48Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T19:02:56Z jasom: nij: no need to do that, you can just load setup.lisp in your stumpwm config, right?
2021-01-06T19:03:05Z nij: Yeah I think so @@
2021-01-06T19:03:16Z j0nd0e quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-06T19:03:23Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-06T19:03:57Z nij: lemme try
2021-01-06T19:05:37Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T19:06:30Z nij: jasom: do you mean (load "/home/nij/.quicklisp/setup.lisp")?        (ps my quicklisp root is  $HOME/.quicklisp)
2021-01-06T19:08:24Z jasom: nij: yup
2021-01-06T19:08:37Z nij: I did that @@ but it doesnt' work
2021-01-06T19:12:14Z nij: I think the way that will resolve everything is to understand how sbcl and quicklisp really work.
2021-01-06T19:12:27Z nij: Any account with details?
2021-01-06T19:12:57Z Fade: in your environment, what is the value of $SBCL_HOME ?
2021-01-06T19:12:58Z nij: I have been relying on my package manager too much, and it's only going to kill more of my time. I want to start learning from scratch.
2021-01-06T19:13:21Z nij: Fade: It outputs nothing.
2021-01-06T19:13:31Z nij: $ echo $SBCL_HOME => ""
2021-01-06T19:13:49Z Fade: do you have an .sbclrc?
2021-01-06T19:14:20Z jasom: oh, I just looked at the error message; you'll need to reinitialize the ASDF package registry probably
2021-01-06T19:14:42Z jasom: nij: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems
2021-01-06T19:14:44Z nij: Yep! file content is here: https://bpa.st/ZNZA
2021-01-06T19:14:45Z Fade: anyhow, we discussed this in #stumpwm
2021-01-06T19:15:53Z nij: OK. It seems I need to read the manuals of ASDF, quicklisp, and sbcl.
2021-01-06T19:16:24Z Fade: well, your stump was built in the system directories, and it's using a lot of pathing from that environment.
2021-01-06T19:16:34Z nij: Yeah. It's all messed up.
2021-01-06T19:16:36Z Fade: I've never tried doing it that way.
2021-01-06T19:16:44Z nij: Nope. I shouldn't have.
2021-01-06T19:16:48Z sunset_NOVA joined #lisp
2021-01-06T19:16:59Z Fade: but your quicklisp setup is also non-standard, so you have many moving pieces at odds with each other.
2021-01-06T19:17:14Z nij: Yeah. I should move my stuff out from $HOME.
2021-01-06T19:17:26Z Fade: well...
2021-01-06T19:17:27Z nij: $HOME is only for programs' configs.
2021-01-06T19:17:36Z nij: I just wanted it to look clean @@
2021-01-06T19:17:43Z Fade: i dunno if that's the takeaway I'd take, but it's your time and system. :)
2021-01-06T19:17:47Z Fade: bbl
2021-01-06T19:17:57Z nij: :D Thanks Fade
2021-01-06T19:20:55Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T19:23:22Z oni-on-ion joined #lisp
2021-01-06T19:29:25Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T19:30:22Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-06T19:38:32Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T19:39:18Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-06T19:41:20Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T19:43:35Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-06T19:45:57Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T19:46:41Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-06T19:48:05Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T19:50:34Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T19:51:14Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T19:51:25Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-06T19:54:35Z surabax_ is now known as surabax
2021-01-06T20:05:51Z sxmx quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T20:05:54Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:06:50Z sxmx joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:09:56Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:10:11Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:11:37Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-06T20:12:45Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:13:46Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-06T20:17:26Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T20:18:14Z failproofshark: thanks ill try out plump!
2021-01-06T20:18:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:19:01Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:23:27Z failproofshark quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-06T20:23:33Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T20:26:51Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T20:26:52Z andreyorst_ is now known as andreyorst
2021-01-06T20:28:38Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:39:48Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:39:53Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:43:24Z Duuqnd joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:44:38Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T20:45:24Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:46:55Z FennecCode joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:47:10Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-06T20:49:01Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-06T20:51:08Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-06T20:53:23Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T20:58:35Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T20:59:19Z FennecCode quit (Quit: IRCNow and Forever!)
2021-01-06T21:00:45Z jw4 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:12:19Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T21:12:25Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-06T21:12:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:15:26Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:15:52Z frgo quit
2021-01-06T21:16:52Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T21:20:23Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:20:33Z etimmons: ralt: I have a second version of the patch that requires only a relink of the runtime to make it static and the core can be shared between the dynamic and static runtimes
2021-01-06T21:20:56Z etimmons: I'll post it once I test it a bit more. But it's passing smoke tests at the moment
2021-01-06T21:20:59Z ralt: wooo
2021-01-06T21:21:03Z ralt: amazing
2021-01-06T21:26:07Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:34:30Z sunset_NOVA quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-06T21:39:41Z FennecCode joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:43:53Z amerigo joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:45:43Z Cesdo joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:46:00Z Cesdo: Hi all
2021-01-06T21:46:27Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:46:31Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-06T21:47:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T21:48:00Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:48:15Z frodef: hello
2021-01-06T21:50:14Z Cesdo: Merry Christmas to everyone!
2021-01-06T21:51:02Z frodef: Cesdo: a bit early, isn't it? :)
2021-01-06T21:51:39Z Cesdo: No, it's 12:51 am already
2021-01-06T21:52:05Z Cesdo: 7 January starts)
2021-01-06T21:52:18Z frodef: early in the year..?
2021-01-06T21:55:42Z lotuseater: oh maybe it's celebrated there on 7th January
2021-01-06T21:55:45Z Cesdo: frodef: I don't know where are you from, but I'm from Russia. We have Russian Orthodox Church, and we celebrate Christmas every 7 January)
2021-01-06T21:56:11Z Cesdo: lotuseater: yeah!
2021-01-06T21:56:13Z fe[nl]ix: oh yes, the Eastern Christmas
2021-01-06T21:56:19Z lotuseater: then Merry Christmas to you too Cesdo :)
2021-01-06T21:56:41Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:56:44Z Cesdo: lotuseater: thanks))
2021-01-06T21:57:19Z lotuseater: i had something like that in mind, here in Germany we call it "Heilige drei Könige", the day when the wise men arrived at Bethlehem
2021-01-06T21:58:25Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T21:58:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T21:58:41Z frodef: Cesdo: I see, merry christmas then!
2021-01-06T21:59:04Z aindilis` joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:59:18Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T21:59:19Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T21:59:20Z Cesdo: lotuseater: oh, it's interesting))
2021-01-06T21:59:26Z moon-child: happy boxing day y'all!
2021-01-06T21:59:39Z frodef: Cesdo: here we wrapped up christmas about two weeks ago :)
2021-01-06T21:59:45Z Cesdo: frodef: thanks)
2021-01-06T22:01:27Z Cesdo: frodef: where are you from?
2021-01-06T22:02:24Z Cesdo: moon-child: Is English football paid to watch in your country?
2021-01-06T22:02:49Z moon-child: I have no idea
2021-01-06T22:03:24Z frodef: Cesdo: norway
2021-01-06T22:05:21Z Cesdo: moon-child: Ehm... Boxing-day is in English Premier League, isn't it?
2021-01-06T22:05:24Z jasom: frodef: Last day of christmas here for Lutherans; Latin-rite Catholics get 3 more days
2021-01-06T22:05:53Z moon-child: Cesdo: idk in england but in canada boxing day is just the day after christmas
2021-01-06T22:06:38Z Cesdo: frodef: Oh, Linus was born not far from your country))
2021-01-06T22:07:41Z Cesdo: moon-child: oh, it's interesting. Why it's called boxing day??
2021-01-06T22:08:20Z Cesdo: moon-child: I thought, you're football fan))
2021-01-06T22:08:41Z jasom: Cesdo: OED says it's because servants would receive a Christmas box.
2021-01-06T22:08:53Z frodef: Cesdo: closer to yours, actually..
2021-01-06T22:09:16Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-06T22:10:14Z lotuseater: so now we had just two of some slightly offtopic stuff: religion and sports :)
2021-01-06T22:10:52Z lotuseater: now politics and it's complete. but some quote states "Common Lisp is not art, it's politics."
2021-01-06T22:11:45Z ralt: I mean
2021-01-06T22:12:02Z ralt: just open any news channel if you want some politics
2021-01-06T22:12:03Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-06T22:12:20Z ralt: you know, with people breaking into the Capitol in Washington, DC
2021-01-06T22:12:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Can someone help me with some Javascript?
2021-01-06T22:12:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2021-01-06T22:12:53Z lotuseater: no I'm not much into it, too wibbli-wobbly-tiny-winy
2021-01-06T22:13:01Z fe[nl]ix: all off-topic :)
2021-01-06T22:13:09Z lotuseater: fiddlerwoaroof: same with JS :D
2021-01-06T22:13:14Z fe[nl]ix: let's return to Lispy things
2021-01-06T22:15:09Z miasuji quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-06T22:16:03Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-06T22:16:12Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T22:17:37Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T22:17:51Z luis joined #lisp
2021-01-06T22:24:19Z leilamag joined #lisp
2021-01-06T22:27:28Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T22:27:41Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-06T22:30:54Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-06T22:33:25Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T22:37:29Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T22:37:53Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-06T22:39:02Z andreyor1 joined #lisp
2021-01-06T22:39:05Z aorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-06T22:39:39Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-06T22:40:36Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T22:42:28Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T22:44:55Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-06T22:45:12Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T22:47:33Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T22:47:46Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-06T22:50:01Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T23:00:17Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-06T23:08:37Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T23:09:33Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T23:11:11Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-06T23:13:49Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-06T23:14:45Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-06T23:15:01Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-06T23:15:29Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-06T23:16:06Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-06T23:16:33Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-06T23:19:24Z save-lisp-or-die left #lisp
2021-01-06T23:25:49Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-06T23:28:28Z White_Flame: beach:  interesting paper.  My musing along such lines in the past was to have multiple entry points into the function, but that explodes out in too many combinations to optimize for
2021-01-06T23:29:20Z White_Flame: customizing it per use is probably much more practical.  It could be advantageous for cache purposes to have multiple call sites share the same thunk, though that would make it a call instead of jump
2021-01-06T23:30:38Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-06T23:32:14Z White_Flame: btw, I thought the concept itself was very easily presented in the paper, but again that could be because I've spent time thinking about this in the past as well
2021-01-06T23:34:55Z phoe: I know that beach was exploring the concept of multiple entry points
2021-01-06T23:37:11Z White_Flame: I also enjoyed the "We would like to thank."  Nice simple blanket statement ;)
2021-01-06T23:37:18Z phoe: :D
2021-01-06T23:37:26Z phoe: I giggled at that, too
2021-01-06T23:41:35Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-06T23:46:10Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-06T23:48:16Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-06T23:49:07Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T23:50:52Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-06T23:55:32Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-06T23:55:36Z Xach left #lisp
2021-01-06T23:57:40Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-07T00:00:06Z grobe0ba has set away! (auto away after idling [15 min]) [Log:ON] .gz.
2021-01-07T00:00:13Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-07T00:01:09Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-07T00:03:57Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T00:07:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T00:08:11Z leilamag quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T00:09:53Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-07T00:10:28Z andreyor1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-07T00:10:58Z pfdietz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T00:13:22Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T00:16:30Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T00:18:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T00:18:42Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T00:23:01Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T00:26:24Z abhixec quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T00:30:51Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-07T00:31:14Z Duuqnd quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T00:33:40Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T00:35:01Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T00:39:38Z Cesdo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T00:45:53Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-07T00:46:31Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-07T00:51:24Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-07T01:06:42Z dyelar joined #lisp
2021-01-07T01:11:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-07T01:20:54Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-07T01:21:02Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T01:28:05Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-07T01:29:13Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-07T01:42:21Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T01:44:16Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-07T01:46:56Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T01:49:25Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T02:01:11Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-07T02:15:33Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:17:52Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:24:13Z torbo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:24:42Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:24:42Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-07T02:24:42Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:29:22Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-07T02:32:20Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-07T02:34:50Z mason left #lisp
2021-01-07T02:34:52Z torbo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-07T02:38:56Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T02:39:13Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-07T02:39:40Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:42:03Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T02:42:37Z semz joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:42:49Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:43:14Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:48:13Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T02:48:13Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T02:48:39Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T02:51:11Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:54:44Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:58:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T02:58:34Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:58:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T02:59:26Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T03:01:28Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T03:03:01Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-07T03:03:39Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T03:04:55Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-07T03:05:29Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T03:09:03Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T03:10:00Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T03:11:21Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-07T03:11:59Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T03:13:36Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-07T03:18:48Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T03:18:53Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-07T03:22:53Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-07T03:22:55Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T03:26:52Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-07T03:31:35Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T03:59:32Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-07T04:01:46Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T04:02:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T04:03:05Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-07T04:03:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-07T04:05:12Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T04:16:40Z beach: White_Flame: Thanks.  It is probably not worthwhile to attempt to share snippets.  I mean, the way things work now is that all call sites essentially do the same thing with duplicated code.
2021-01-07T04:17:34Z sword865 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T04:23:50Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T04:26:10Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T04:32:05Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T04:32:21Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T04:33:56Z mtd_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T04:34:00Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-07T04:36:45Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-07T04:37:48Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T04:39:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T04:40:54Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T04:41:06Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T04:43:59Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T04:45:56Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-07T04:48:49Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T05:07:25Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T05:11:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T05:11:36Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T05:20:53Z torbo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T05:20:58Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T05:38:51Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T05:39:14Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T05:40:47Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-07T05:44:55Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T05:47:44Z pankajsg joined #lisp
2021-01-07T05:48:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T05:48:13Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T05:49:24Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T05:59:19Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T05:59:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T06:08:20Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-07T06:15:14Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-07T06:15:38Z jrm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T06:15:44Z jrm2 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T06:16:21Z jrm2 is now known as jrm
2021-01-07T06:21:57Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-07T06:27:02Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T06:32:24Z oni-on-ion quit (Quit: Quit)
2021-01-07T06:34:52Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-07T06:42:50Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-07T06:45:49Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T06:46:34Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-07T06:50:00Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-07T06:50:11Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-07T06:50:37Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T06:56:36Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-07T06:57:03Z stargazesparkle: Hello there
2021-01-07T06:59:02Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:01:05Z beach: Hello stargazesparkle.
2021-01-07T07:01:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T07:01:49Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:02:06Z beach: stargazesparkle: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2021-01-07T07:02:20Z contrapunctus: stargazesparkle: General Kenobi! 😏
2021-01-07T07:06:51Z stargazesparkle: I know it is late but if someone could look over the file that I am about to link to and clue me in as to why  it throws the error I am going to link?
2021-01-07T07:06:51Z stargazesparkle: Code: https://github.com/StargazeSparkle/spellcheck/blob/main/src/mediawiki.lisp
2021-01-07T07:06:51Z stargazesparkle: Error: https://gist.github.com/StargazeSparkle/1b94a91ce6cfcd582650ce11e91a00e1
2021-01-07T07:07:20Z stargazesparkle: beach yes I am new both to CL and to IRC and I am not entirely sure that I know what it is that I am doing
2021-01-07T07:07:21Z beach: Late?
2021-01-07T07:07:31Z stargazesparkle: Sorry I live in the US
2021-01-07T07:09:26Z beach: That error seems to be specific to Drakma, so I guess you need someone who knows it.
2021-01-07T07:09:54Z beach: stargazesparkle: And your code has a very strange layout.
2021-01-07T07:10:18Z stargazesparkle: I don't know still how lisp actually... works
2021-01-07T07:10:36Z stargazesparkle: I am just trying to piece things together from bits and pieces that I can find online
2021-01-07T07:10:56Z beach: It might not be a good idea to learn it by using an advanced library, but that's just what I think.
2021-01-07T07:11:35Z stargazesparkle: Is http stuff considered advanced?
2021-01-07T07:12:19Z beach: Well, it's a third-party library that seems to be using standard classes and generic functions, so it is not newbie material exactly.
2021-01-07T07:13:06Z beach: So I see at least one problem...
2021-01-07T07:13:40Z beach: You probably expect USERNAME in  ("lgname" . USERNAME) to be the value of the variable.
2021-01-07T07:13:57Z beach: But, you are quoting the entire list '(("action" ...)), so it is not evaluated.
2021-01-07T07:14:12Z beach: Therefore you have the symbol USERNAME rather than the value of it as a variable.
2021-01-07T07:14:36Z stargazesparkle: Ooooh
2021-01-07T07:14:51Z beach: So, yes, if you don't yet know how quoting works, this kind of application could be a tad too advanced.
2021-01-07T07:15:21Z stargazesparkle: I can use a quasiquote to remedy this can't I
2021-01-07T07:15:34Z beach: Probably, yes.
2021-01-07T07:15:44Z stargazesparkle: `(("action" .  ,username))
2021-01-07T07:16:04Z beach: Yeah, something like that.
2021-01-07T07:16:41Z stargazesparkle: Hmm... I just got a new laptop so I will have to figure out how to install lisp on it but as soon as I do I will give that a go and see if it works as I expect it to.
2021-01-07T07:16:51Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T07:17:09Z beach: You also need to work on the layout of your code if you plan to expose it for feedback.
2021-01-07T07:17:34Z stargazesparkle: I don't know how to lay it out better
2021-01-07T07:17:51Z beach: You use Emacs+SLIME and it will do it for you.
2021-01-07T07:17:53Z stargazesparkle: I looked at some stuff on github to see the file structure and tried to copy it as much as I could
2021-01-07T07:18:22Z beach: Your indentation is not conventional, and you have strange spaces everywhere.
2021-01-07T07:18:50Z beach: And you have a useless PROGN in your DEFUN body.
2021-01-07T07:18:51Z stargazesparkle: Oh yeah I uh... tried to mimic how paredit handles clojure
2021-01-07T07:18:57Z beach: DEFUN has an implicit PROGN.
2021-01-07T07:19:03Z stargazesparkle: O
2021-01-07T07:19:53Z stargazesparkle: I don't use emacs I must confess
2021-01-07T07:20:00Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.
2021-01-07T07:20:01Z stargazesparkle: I have been using visual studio code
2021-01-07T07:20:13Z beach: Then you will probably hate your experience with Common Lisp.
2021-01-07T07:20:30Z stargazesparkle: Well it sort of has been... progressing
2021-01-07T07:20:40Z stargazesparkle: I am getting somewhere that is for sure
2021-01-07T07:21:24Z stargazesparkle: Emacs might be worth a second look
2021-01-07T07:21:26Z mfiano: Common Lisp is not a language you just type, though.
2021-01-07T07:21:29Z beach: So Common Lisp programmers rely on indentation to understand the structure of the code.  If your indentation is off, a person reading your code can not easily understand the code, so I for one stop reading.
2021-01-07T07:21:42Z mfiano: It is designed for interactive use. And that interactive environment, is Emacs.
2021-01-07T07:21:53Z beach: stargazesparkle: You are essentially asking people to count parentheses in order to help you.
2021-01-07T07:22:17Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-07T07:22:29Z stargazesparkle: I will try to get better at the formatting
2021-01-07T07:22:56Z stargazesparkle: I was laying it out in a way that I thought was clearer but I guess that is not the case
2021-01-07T07:23:12Z mfiano: That's not the way to get better at Common Lisp.
2021-01-07T07:23:46Z stargazesparkle: I am not entirely sure how to get better at common lisp truth be told
2021-01-07T07:24:10Z mfiano: Emacs does the formatting for you, and the formatting depends on the running state of the image. Emacs is your interaction with that image.
2021-01-07T07:24:13Z beach: stargazesparkle: Well, you see, if you do that manually and you make a single mistake, like the lack of one space before (mediawiki...., then the person reading your code can not trust the indentation.
2021-01-07T07:24:34Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:24:42Z ravndal quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-07T07:24:55Z frost-lab joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:24:56Z mfiano: Common Lisp isn't just another language to type and send to a compiler. Emacs hooks into the language itself.
2021-01-07T07:25:12Z beach: stargazesparkle: That person will react by thinking that you probably did the layout manually, so in order to really understand the code, he or she would have to count parentheses, which is a lot of work, and very error prone.
2021-01-07T07:25:56Z stargazesparkle: So you basically have to use emacs
2021-01-07T07:26:46Z mfiano: Anywhere SLIME or Sly runs will have basic support, but for the full interactive experience, SLIME or Sly for Emacs is the only way to go
2021-01-07T07:26:50Z ravndal joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:27:31Z mfiano: There is just no other way. CL is a very different language
2021-01-07T07:27:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T07:28:41Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:30:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T07:30:57Z stargazesparkle: How is spacemacs?
2021-01-07T07:31:18Z stargazesparkle: Can I get that and configure it for common lisp?
2021-01-07T07:31:21Z ex_nihilo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T07:31:27Z mfiano: THat is just Emacs, so why not
2021-01-07T07:32:29Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:34:13Z stargazesparkle: So if I open my project in emacs will it automatically fix my formatting?
2021-01-07T07:34:25Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:34:27Z stargazesparkle: Or is there a command that I have to run first
2021-01-07T07:34:51Z ex_nihilo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T07:35:09Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:35:39Z mfiano: No
2021-01-07T07:35:47Z beach: Yeah, you can do C-x h and then C-M-\ or so I think.  My fingers know it, but not my brain.
2021-01-07T07:35:48Z mfiano: You must install SLIME or Sly and connect to the process
2021-01-07T07:37:02Z stargazesparkle: What uh
2021-01-07T07:37:07Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-07T07:37:08Z stargazesparkle: What process am I connecting to
2021-01-07T07:37:13Z mfiano: Indentation of macros requires that the definitions of such macros be loaded into the image, and Sly/SLIME connected to that image.
2021-01-07T07:37:17Z mfiano: M-x slime
2021-01-07T07:37:56Z mfiano: I suggest reading the SLIME (or Sly) manual.
2021-01-07T07:37:56Z beach: stargazesparkle: Seriously, it is worth the effort.  You have an interactive command loop (the REPL) and all kinds of support from the Common Lisp system this way.  Like I said, without such support, you will not like your experience with the language.
2021-01-07T07:38:31Z mfiano: You will be like the countless others that quit without properly learning the language.
2021-01-07T07:38:51Z mfiano: Speaking of, you should probably read PRactical Common Lisp (free book) before you try writing Common Lisp code.
2021-01-07T07:39:33Z stargazesparkle: If I end up quitting common lisp I will still probably stick with clojure
2021-01-07T07:39:39Z stargazesparkle: But I would like to give it a fair shot
2021-01-07T07:40:19Z beach: Try to watch some YouTube video.  Look for "live coding common lisp".
2021-01-07T07:40:27Z beach: You'll get an idea of how people work.
2021-01-07T07:40:54Z stargazesparkle: I am just so used to the whole write code, compile code, run code mentality
2021-01-07T07:41:05Z stargazesparkle: The idea of interactive coding is so... foreign
2021-01-07T07:41:09Z beach: That's not how we do it, for good reasons.
2021-01-07T07:41:37Z mfiano: Clojure doesn't have an interactive inspector, debugger, the condition system, or CLOS...all very important things for interactive live coding.
2021-01-07T07:42:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T07:42:48Z beach: Try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzTH_ZqaFKI
2021-01-07T07:42:54Z beach: I hope I got the link right.
2021-01-07T07:43:41Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:44:17Z mfiano: Ah a classic
2021-01-07T07:46:43Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:50:43Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:51:04Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-07T07:51:46Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:53:55Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:58:13Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:58:21Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-07T07:58:45Z beach: stargazesparkle: Did you check the link?
2021-01-07T07:59:04Z stargazesparkle: Oh! I think I may have gotten slime set up
2021-01-07T07:59:12Z beach: Great!
2021-01-07T07:59:19Z stargazesparkle: How uh
2021-01-07T07:59:26Z stargazesparkle: Do I eval an s-expression?
2021-01-07T07:59:46Z beach: In the REPL, just type it followed by RET.
2021-01-07T07:59:56Z beach: In a source buffer, type C-c C-c.
2021-01-07T08:00:44Z beach: With slime, you would typically (depending on your screen) have one REPL window and at least one source buffer, side by side.
2021-01-07T08:01:19Z stargazesparkle: Yeah that is the case here
2021-01-07T08:01:23Z beach: As the video shows, you would then write code in the source buffer and hit C-c C-c to load the code into your Common Lisp system.
2021-01-07T08:01:35Z beach: Or you can switch to the REPL window and type expressions.
2021-01-07T08:04:44Z stargazesparkle: Okay that makes sense
2021-01-07T08:04:47Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-07T08:05:32Z stargazesparkle: Should I be putting all of my code in the one buffer and then saving that as a file?
2021-01-07T08:05:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: that's more or less what I do starting out
2021-01-07T08:06:18Z phoe: stargazesparkle: yes, I then C-c C-c new/modified forms that I type out
2021-01-07T08:06:25Z phoe: and occasionally interact with the repl
2021-01-07T08:06:39Z stargazesparkle: Oh that is a name that seems familiar to me
2021-01-07T08:06:50Z stargazesparkle: I don't know why though
2021-01-07T08:06:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: I'm also a bit surprised. Calva in VSCode implements a very similar workflow for Clojure (CIDER is the emacs equivalent)
2021-01-07T08:06:59Z phoe: name?
2021-01-07T08:07:04Z stargazesparkle: Your name
2021-01-07T08:07:05Z stargazesparkle: Phoe
2021-01-07T08:07:13Z phoe: huh! hmmm
2021-01-07T08:07:35Z stargazesparkle: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes it does I didn't know that this was basically the same
2021-01-07T08:07:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's roughly the same idea: connect to a repl, send code over
2021-01-07T08:08:03Z stargazesparkle: Okay that's a far less confusing proposition
2021-01-07T08:08:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wrote Clojure professionally for a year or two and it was very similar, except the JVM makes it a bit tricky to redefine certain things and do things like loading libraries on the fly
2021-01-07T08:09:02Z stargazesparkle: phoe: did you provoke the ire of someone? I think I remember seeing some github thing recently about some cl revivaland I could have sworn that phoe was a name dropped.
2021-01-07T08:10:19Z stargazesparkle: I would be writing clojure rn too but on w10 something that calva relies on is borked so nrepl doesn't work and so I thought to revisit this project which lead me to looking for help which lead me to being directed here which lead to me installing emacs
2021-01-07T08:10:21Z stargazesparkle: lol
2021-01-07T08:10:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T08:10:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Phoe is the #1 threat to CL, I believe
2021-01-07T08:10:37Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T08:10:45Z phoe: stargazesparkle: yes, I did
2021-01-07T08:11:09Z stargazesparkle: I don't know anything about you but all that I can say is, sorry you have to deal with that
2021-01-07T08:11:09Z phoe: and I'd rather discuss it on query or #lispcafe rather than here since it's considered off-topic for a good reason :D
2021-01-07T08:11:16Z stargazesparkle: Okie
2021-01-07T08:11:42Z stargazesparkle: I... need to go look up what nickserv is first before I can join that channel
2021-01-07T08:12:15Z phoe: nickserv is a part of Freenode infrastructure that allows one to register their nick, so no one can impersonate them. to get help on it, do /msg NickServ help
2021-01-07T08:12:34Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T08:12:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Something like /msg NickServ register <mynewpassword> <email>
2021-01-07T08:14:50Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T08:19:50Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-07T08:20:02Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T08:22:49Z bjorkint0sh quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T08:23:08Z bjorkint0sh joined #lisp
2021-01-07T08:27:11Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-07T08:32:40Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-07T08:45:22Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-07T08:48:31Z pyx joined #lisp
2021-01-07T08:48:46Z pyx quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-07T08:50:32Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-07T08:59:49Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-07T09:05:58Z harlchen joined #lisp
2021-01-07T09:06:18Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T09:07:07Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-07T09:08:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T09:18:45Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-07T09:20:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T09:21:09Z mrios22 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T09:27:32Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-07T09:27:41Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T09:28:14Z todun joined #lisp
2021-01-07T09:28:31Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-07T09:36:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T09:36:12Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T09:38:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-07T09:47:30Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T09:49:22Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-07T09:52:00Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T10:08:20Z todun quit (Quit: todun)
2021-01-07T10:10:56Z datajerk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T10:11:49Z raoul joined #lisp
2021-01-07T10:12:11Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-07T10:13:14Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T10:14:38Z datajerk joined #lisp
2021-01-07T10:15:20Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-07T10:16:30Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-07T10:16:30Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-07T10:16:30Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-07T10:18:30Z Duuqnd joined #lisp
2021-01-07T10:23:43Z realdea8 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T10:26:37Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T10:40:31Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-07T10:42:01Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-07T10:45:43Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-07T10:47:42Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-07T10:52:14Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T10:54:00Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-07T10:57:43Z realdea8 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T11:07:20Z paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T11:08:49Z Stanley00 quit
2021-01-07T11:08:56Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T11:15:33Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-07T11:36:30Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-07T11:38:23Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T11:39:13Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T11:39:15Z hineios9 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T11:39:36Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T11:39:37Z hineios9 is now known as hineios
2021-01-07T11:44:43Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T11:47:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T11:48:15Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T11:48:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T11:52:31Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-07T11:52:36Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T11:52:55Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T11:53:59Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-07T11:55:26Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-07T12:06:11Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T12:10:23Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T12:12:19Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T12:14:26Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-07T12:14:37Z Xach joined #lisp
2021-01-07T12:15:16Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-07T12:18:14Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-07T12:18:50Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T12:22:50Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-07T12:22:58Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-07T12:29:50Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T12:31:27Z edgar-rft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T12:32:20Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-07T12:41:53Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-07T12:49:51Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:02:02Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T13:02:30Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:04:36Z andreyorst_ quit (Quit: andreyorst_)
2021-01-07T13:06:07Z neirac joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:07:55Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:09:15Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T13:09:33Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:11:40Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T13:12:25Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:19:47Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:20:07Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T13:21:26Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:23:44Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:28:07Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:28:37Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T13:37:56Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T13:37:57Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T13:47:00Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:47:35Z msk quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T13:48:00Z msk joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:48:54Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T13:53:37Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T13:56:07Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:03:28Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:03:29Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-07T14:03:29Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:05:02Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-07T14:12:27Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:12:58Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:15:36Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T14:17:22Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:18:46Z refpga` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:19:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:20:41Z skapate joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:21:01Z skapata is now known as Guest57823
2021-01-07T14:21:01Z skapate is now known as skapata
2021-01-07T14:23:26Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T14:24:05Z Guest57823 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-07T14:29:17Z semz: Should library functions that are part of the public interface contain type declarations for parameters?
2021-01-07T14:30:24Z semz: I remember asking about the type declaration part of Norvig&Pitman in the past and getting "``if you know the type'' means ``if you can guarantee the type''" as a response, but just randomly stumbled over such declarations in alexandria
2021-01-07T14:33:09Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-07T14:36:24Z sword865 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-07T14:37:23Z Bike: it's true that putting in a declaration doesn't necessarily constitute an actual check, and code might behave badly if declarations are violated
2021-01-07T14:37:54Z Bike: like in iota. i see.
2021-01-07T14:38:26Z Bike: of course you could also take this to mean the programmer is responsible for making sure the functions are not called with invalid arguments.
2021-01-07T14:39:18Z frodef: it's a bit strange really to have a "safe" language where you can just promise away the safety.
2021-01-07T14:39:32Z jackdaniel: sbcl actually puts check-type on declare type
2021-01-07T14:39:48Z jackdaniel: but it is not mandated by the spec
2021-01-07T14:40:25Z Nilby: semz: Yes. But "should" is a stronger word than I would use. I usually put off declarations until the code is very stable. I usually do what I call "note driven declarations". I turn on optimization in sbcl and try to make as many notes disappear as possible.
2021-01-07T14:40:26Z jackdaniel: so the portable safe way is (declare …) (check-type …) ,@body
2021-01-07T14:40:53Z jackdaniel: I think
2021-01-07T14:41:02Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:41:59Z phoe: in pure theory the portable safe way is to avoid DECLARE because if you even call a function with a wrong argument then it is not said that execution will reach the CHECK-TYPE statement
2021-01-07T14:42:15Z phoe: the mere act of calling a function while violating a type definition is enough to invoke undefined behavior
2021-01-07T14:42:19Z semz: yeah CCL will happily fault on (inspect (funcall (lambda (x) (declare (type fixnum x)) (+ x 3)) nil)) for instance
2021-01-07T14:42:25Z jackdaniel: phoe: yes, you are right
2021-01-07T14:42:52Z phoe: but, in practice, in safe code this should signal a type error
2021-01-07T14:43:08Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-07T14:43:14Z flip214: doesn't a CHECK-TYPE get the arg declaration automatically? ISTR that this works in SBCL?!
2021-01-07T14:43:25Z phoe: yes, but that is SBCL-specific
2021-01-07T14:43:42Z jackdaniel: flip214: we are discussing what is mandated by the standard, sbcl is most likely safe :)
2021-01-07T14:43:52Z flip214: *DERIVE-FUNCTION-TYPES* is what I'm talking about
2021-01-07T14:44:00Z flip214: well, just _make_ that a standard ;)
2021-01-07T14:44:04Z jackdaniel: phoe: in practice, in safe code, declare per se should not signal an error
2021-01-07T14:44:09Z phoe: CLtL3 resumes
2021-01-07T14:44:13Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes
2021-01-07T14:44:14Z semz: it should and does, see the infamous (+ 0 nil) where ~every impl signals type error even though it's undefined even in safe mode, but with declarations it usually blows up in my experience
2021-01-07T14:44:30Z semz: and badly so
2021-01-07T14:44:42Z jackdaniel: semz: how (+ 0 nil) is undefined?
2021-01-07T14:45:18Z semz: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_pl.htm
2021-01-07T14:45:34Z semz: note the "*might* signal", which means it may not signal even in safe code
2021-01-07T14:45:50Z frodef: (declare foo) (check-type foo) should/could compile to just (declare foo), no? Meaning the promise in the declaration means the check-type can be type-inferred away.
2021-01-07T14:45:53Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm
2021-01-07T14:45:53Z jackdaniel: seems pretty defined to me
2021-01-07T14:45:59Z phoe: " This means that the situation has undefined consequences; however, if an error is signaled, it is of the specified type. For example, ``open might signal an error of type file-error.''"
2021-01-07T14:46:13Z phoe: so an implementation is allowed to signal an error, but it may also print unicorns to the screen
2021-01-07T14:46:34Z phoe: that's not a strong "should signal an error"
2021-01-07T14:46:40Z jackdaniel: uhm, correct
2021-01-07T14:46:43Z phoe: (+ 0 nil) ;=> 42 on a conforming implementation
2021-01-07T14:46:55Z phoe: and that's... troublesome, but in practice in safe code no one really does this
2021-01-07T14:47:02Z semz: you'd have to be insane to not signal there in safe code
2021-01-07T14:47:04Z phoe: s/on a/allowed on a/
2021-01-07T14:47:13Z semz: but with libraries the situation is a bit different than with the core language
2021-01-07T14:47:28Z semz: hence the question
2021-01-07T14:48:23Z flip214: perhaps alexandria should provide a defun* that takes types, and generates _both_ DECLARE and CHECK-TYPE ... some of that might be optimized away
2021-01-07T14:49:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:49:51Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:50:45Z Nilby: (handler-case (+ 0 nil) (simple-type-error () (format t "🦄🦄🦄!~%")))
2021-01-07T14:51:29Z _death: I remember the ITA guys had a define-strict-function operator..
2021-01-07T14:53:16Z frodef: flip214: seems to me you'd want just the check-type, not the declare.
2021-01-07T14:53:33Z _death: I would say alexandria should not be innovative with interfaces (and besides, it could use some work on implementation..)
2021-01-07T14:54:24Z flip214: frodef: the check-type alone might not be visible when getting function information via SWANK
2021-01-07T14:54:45Z flip214: _death: merge requests welcome!  (sorry, very stereotypical answer)
2021-01-07T14:54:49Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-07T14:56:03Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-07T14:58:24Z perrier-jouet quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-07T14:59:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T15:00:28Z _death: maybe if it was on github or some other site that doesn't require "two-factor authentication" for such a thing..
2021-01-07T15:01:13Z phoe: I need to write a post about how to easily set an OTP client on Linux, or andOTP on Android, in order to swiftly log into clnet
2021-01-07T15:04:14Z rpg is now known as rpg_away
2021-01-07T15:04:38Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:04:58Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:07:43Z frodef: I don't suppose Eric Schulte is here? I'm trying to use elf.lisp...
2021-01-07T15:07:44Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:11:15Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:11:53Z dyelar joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:13:25Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T15:13:40Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:13:44Z _death: frodef: he's sometimes here
2021-01-07T15:14:36Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T15:17:19Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-07T15:24:28Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:25:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T15:26:59Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:29:26Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-07T15:29:50Z flip214: _death: like https://github.com/phmarek/alexandria?
2021-01-07T15:30:40Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:30:50Z _death: do you take PRs there?
2021-01-07T15:31:22Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T15:32:07Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:32:11Z flip214: I might if there were any
2021-01-07T15:33:03Z _death: cool.. then I might have a small patch on the weekend
2021-01-07T15:33:03Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:33:07Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T15:33:08Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T15:33:27Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:33:27Z flip214: np
2021-01-07T15:35:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T15:36:58Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:37:39Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T15:37:39Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:38:25Z Bike: anyone ever put custom methods on update-instance-for-different-class?
2021-01-07T15:39:46Z liberliver1 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:40:07Z flip214: I played around with that, but stopped as there was no queue of these function calls
2021-01-07T15:40:39Z flip214: Ie. when changing a class 3 times and _then_ touching an old instance, the "intermediate" 3 "update" functions were not called
2021-01-07T15:41:04Z phoe: Bike: why do you ask?
2021-01-07T15:41:07Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-07T15:41:07Z liberliver1 is now known as liberliver
2021-01-07T15:41:17Z Bike: i don't understand. when you change-class u-i-f-d-c needs to be called immediately. It's not like finalization or something.
2021-01-07T15:41:46Z phoe: yes, it must be called immediately
2021-01-07T15:41:57Z phoe: that's unlike class finalization or instance obsoletion
2021-01-07T15:42:04Z Bike: phoe: i'm considering an optimization for change-class that would make it work faster when there are no u-i-f-d-c methods but slower if there are and wondering if anybody at all could conceivably care.
2021-01-07T15:42:15Z phoe: I thought you'd be doing that
2021-01-07T15:42:22Z phoe: there would be no need to copy the instance then, would it?
2021-01-07T15:42:39Z Bike: yeah. it would be possible to not cons.
2021-01-07T15:42:53Z Bike: well, work faster in limited circumstances, i should say
2021-01-07T15:43:00Z phoe: yes, that would be a good use case for heavy change-class users
2021-01-07T15:43:10Z phoe: mfiano would be one, if they used clasp
2021-01-07T15:43:17Z phoe: s/they/he/
2021-01-07T15:43:26Z phoe: maybe you could him for his code, try to run it on clasp as a performance benchmark
2021-01-07T15:43:32Z Bike: this optimization could be put in other implementations, conceivably
2021-01-07T15:43:33Z phoe: he does a ton of class changing in one game engine of his.
2021-01-07T15:44:02Z Bike: i don't have much understanding of how change-class is actually used. it's a little rare. we use it a lot in cleavir but maybe not in usual ways, i don't know.
2021-01-07T15:45:47Z flip214: ah sorry, I was testing UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-REDEFINED-CLASS
2021-01-07T15:46:11Z Bike: ahh yeah okay.
2021-01-07T15:46:42Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:48:31Z phoe: I remember beach has use cases for it in SICL, but I don't know if these would be performance heavy
2021-01-07T15:49:55Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:51:22Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T15:51:40Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T15:52:08Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T15:53:27Z Bike: in sicl rather than cleavir? hmmm.
2021-01-07T15:53:43Z Bike: ah, yeah, i do see some.
2021-01-07T15:54:27Z beach: Might be in HIR-to-MIR or MIR-to-LIR so same use case as in Cleavir.
2021-01-07T15:54:28Z beach: No?
2021-01-07T15:54:46Z Bike: yeah. it also looks like there are some in the code generator, and with the environments.
2021-01-07T15:56:49Z Bike: karlosz found that the optimization i've already done (which doesn't involve what i'm asking about) reduced consing when compiling asdf by 6%, which i'd say means cleavir uses it pretty heavily
2021-01-07T15:57:18Z Bike: compared to my previous experience of change-class, anyway, which is nobody using it
2021-01-07T15:57:32Z Xach: i use change-class so much!
2021-01-07T15:58:12Z Bike: the particular extra optimization i'm thinking of here would only come into play when the source and destination classes have the same slots (because then the instance doesn't need new slot storage)
2021-01-07T15:58:18Z Bike: cleavir does that sometimes, don't know about other uses
2021-01-07T15:58:25Z flazh1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T15:59:43Z Bike: i think it is a little counterintuitive how change-class sounds like a pure mutation that won't cons, but that isn't generally true
2021-01-07T15:59:57Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T16:00:11Z keyehzy joined #lisp
2021-01-07T16:00:48Z beach: Right.  In general the size of the instance will change.
2021-01-07T16:01:37Z frodef: _death: do you know his nick?
2021-01-07T16:03:07Z _death: frodef: eschulte
2021-01-07T16:04:56Z fitzsim quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1.50))
2021-01-07T16:07:30Z phoe: beach: does it change?
2021-01-07T16:07:38Z phoe: (defclass a () ()) (defclass b (a) ())
2021-01-07T16:07:53Z phoe: change-classing from A to B or from B to A, does it change instance size?
2021-01-07T16:08:02Z Bike: not really.
2021-01-07T16:08:26Z beach: Not in that case.  Which is why I said "in general" rather than "always".
2021-01-07T16:08:37Z phoe: I understand that in general it *may* change if the resulting slot vectors are of different sizes
2021-01-07T16:08:49Z phoe: in my dictionary "will" implies it's usually the case
2021-01-07T16:08:53Z beach: That's what I meant by "in general", yes.
2021-01-07T16:08:57Z phoe: OK, I understand now
2021-01-07T16:09:08Z Bike: if you want a more specific definition, they need to have sets of slots with the same names. if the implementation is a little fancier types on the slots are relevant as well.
2021-01-07T16:09:12Z rpg_away: Bike: I also use change-class a lot, but often unconsciously
2021-01-07T16:09:37Z Bike: i suppose they don't actually need the same names either
2021-01-07T16:09:56Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T16:10:28Z Bike: as long as the slot storage is the same the values in it can just be reshuffled appropriately.
2021-01-07T16:11:12Z _Ark_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T16:11:17Z ark quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-07T16:12:49Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-07T16:13:14Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-07T16:13:47Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-07T16:28:23Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-07T16:33:35Z dbotton_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T16:35:00Z frodef: is (when foo (progn ...)) a thing? Why would anyone consistently do that?
2021-01-07T16:35:04Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-07T16:36:55Z pfdietz: Slime has suddenly stopped working for me when I have the Cisco anyconnect client enabled.      Socket error in "bind": 99 (Cannot assign requested address)
2021-01-07T16:36:58Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-07T16:37:11Z pfdietz: I wonder if this is an ipv6 problem
2021-01-07T16:37:26Z beach: frodef: Nobody would do that.
2021-01-07T16:41:30Z pfdietz: Turning off ipv6 does not fix it.
2021-01-07T16:41:47Z flip214: frodef: a macro perhaps?
2021-01-07T16:42:32Z frodef: flip214: nope, plain code. I suspect it's beginner code.
2021-01-07T16:42:36Z flip214: pfdietz: cisco anyconnect prohibits any other communication
2021-01-07T16:42:53Z pfdietz: This used to work.
2021-01-07T16:42:57Z flip214: perhaps you can explicitly connect to 127.0.0.1 instead of the local ip? not sure whether that's allowed, though
2021-01-07T16:43:00Z beach: frodef: Only some 10 hours ago, we saw (defun fff (...) (progn ...)) so it is not that surprising I guess.
2021-01-07T16:45:09Z flip214: well, (WHEN (condition) (PROGN ...)) is just the literal translation of "IF (condition) { ... }", and people get told not to forget the {} else they'll be burned
2021-01-07T16:45:29Z flip214: burned or eaten, by big, hungry BUGS
2021-01-07T16:46:00Z flip214: so the (DEFUN ... (PROGN ...)) isn't that surprising either.... "int foo() {}" has the {} too
2021-01-07T16:46:28Z frodef: flip214: seems plausible.
2021-01-07T16:46:51Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-07T16:50:34Z _death: it could be debugging debris, by way of putting a bunch of forms into a single form that can be easily #+nil'd
2021-01-07T16:51:13Z _death: although with WHEN it may be easily to disable the condition
2021-01-07T16:51:20Z _death: *easier
2021-01-07T16:51:21Z flip214: _death: plausible for DEFUN, but the WHEN could also be disabled at one location
2021-01-07T16:51:24Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-07T16:51:36Z flip214: #+(or) (WHEN ....)
2021-01-07T16:51:55Z _death: then again, the condition may have side effects :d
2021-01-07T16:51:57Z refpga` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T16:52:48Z flip214: right
2021-01-07T16:53:00Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T16:53:07Z flip214 ... so the only sure way is to nuke the PROGN from orbit
2021-01-07T16:55:39Z _death: btw, I never bother with #+(or) or #-(and).. I guess these persnickety ways belong to a time where such "commented out" code was more acceptable to "check in" or even just to "save in the file" (to be backed up later this week using tape)
2021-01-07T16:57:10Z _death: then you'd care for some New Implementation of Lisp which may actually see the code
2021-01-07T16:57:19Z flip214: well, if you have (FORMAT ...) spread out, disabling a few of them temporarily until debugging needs them again works for me
2021-01-07T16:57:30Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T16:58:25Z _death: flip214: well, if I wanted to solve that using features, I'd have #+my-library-debug
2021-01-07T16:58:49Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-01-07T16:59:53Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:00:07Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-07T17:00:39Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T17:01:48Z flazh1 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:02:20Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:04:14Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-07T17:08:03Z jetsuo joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:11:59Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:14:32Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-07T17:15:08Z SAL9000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1)
2021-01-07T17:15:43Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:18:45Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:19:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-07T17:20:01Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T17:20:03Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-07T17:21:08Z SAL9000 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:22:33Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:22:45Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T17:22:57Z dbotton_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-07T17:23:38Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-07T17:26:03Z dionysius joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:26:33Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:26:43Z dionysius left #lisp
2021-01-07T17:27:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T17:30:22Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T17:30:23Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:30:35Z liberliver quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-07T17:31:45Z rpg_away quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-07T17:34:05Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:34:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T17:34:20Z [d]_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:34:44Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:35:28Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-07T17:36:15Z SpaceIgor2075: Is reading CL Cookbok after Land of Lisp a good choice for a newbie?
2021-01-07T17:36:39Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:38:36Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:39:51Z Cthulhux`: don't read
2021-01-07T17:39:54Z Cthulhux`: learn by writing code.
2021-01-07T17:39:58Z Cthulhux`: jm2c
2021-01-07T17:40:04Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:40:39Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T17:40:59Z jackdaniel: even better, learn by writing code while fixing issues in open source libraries ,)
2021-01-07T17:41:53Z neirac left #lisp
2021-01-07T17:41:55Z White_Flame: once you read 1 book, you should be good to read basically any other book teaching CL
2021-01-07T17:42:15Z White_Flame: but yeah, write code based on what you know already, and start learning how to read the CLHS to be able to look things up
2021-01-07T17:42:18Z Xach: I like learning by reading code and reading books, and writing code is also helpful.
2021-01-07T17:42:38Z SpaceIgor2075: Cthulhux`, jackdaniel: in my case this advice is really helpful, i think i read and think too much instead of just writing te code
2021-01-07T17:43:17Z White_Flame: and flood #clschool with any silly question you happen to have.  Better to hash things through rather than muddle on unknowns forever
2021-01-07T17:43:38Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T17:43:47Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:43:51Z SpaceIgor2075: Thanks everybody for the advice
2021-01-07T17:43:53Z jackdaniel: these are not exclusive or options - you may still educate yourself with books
2021-01-07T17:44:25Z White_Flame: symbols/packages are usually the biggest hangup when initially learning
2021-01-07T17:44:32Z White_Flame: and then wrapping your head around macros as you get further along
2021-01-07T17:45:22Z White_Flame: sometimes those issues take a bit of time to "click", no matter how good the book/explanation
2021-01-07T17:50:37Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-07T17:50:46Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-07T17:51:47Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T17:52:00Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:53:40Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T17:53:56Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T17:54:13Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T17:54:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T17:55:22Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T17:55:41Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:00:06Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:02:32Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:06:11Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:06:48Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:06:55Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T18:07:35Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:14:14Z vegansbane6 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T18:15:16Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:17:17Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:17:30Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:26:33Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:26:33Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:27:32Z minion joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:27:32Z specbot joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:27:44Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:27:46Z andreyorst` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T18:28:22Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:28:23Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:28:58Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:29:02Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:29:39Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:29:41Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:30:16Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:30:19Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:30:56Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:30:58Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:31:33Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:31:36Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:32:14Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:32:15Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:32:49Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:32:52Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:33:28Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:33:31Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:34:04Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:34:09Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:34:44Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:34:48Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:35:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T18:35:24Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:35:26Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:35:29Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:36:04Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:36:05Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:36:35Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:36:41Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:36:43Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:37:19Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:37:22Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:37:56Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:38:00Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:38:12Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:38:33Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:38:39Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:39:13Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:39:17Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:39:32Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-07T18:39:53Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:39:56Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:40:32Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:40:34Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:41:12Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:41:13Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:41:28Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:41:47Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:41:51Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:42:26Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:42:30Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:43:08Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:43:08Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:43:41Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:43:47Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:44:19Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:44:25Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:44:58Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:45:04Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:45:40Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:45:42Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:45:45Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T18:46:18Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:46:21Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:46:56Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:46:59Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:47:34Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:47:38Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:48:12Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:48:16Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:48:53Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:48:55Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:50:23Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:50:25Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:51:00Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:51:03Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:51:36Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T18:51:38Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:51:42Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:52:17Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:52:20Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:52:34Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-07T18:52:53Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:52:59Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:53:18Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:53:34Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:53:37Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:54:15Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:54:16Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:54:51Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:54:54Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:55:30Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:55:31Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:55:33Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:55:59Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-07T18:55:59Z andreyorst_ is now known as andreyorst
2021-01-07T18:56:09Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:56:11Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:56:47Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:56:50Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:56:52Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:57:24Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:57:28Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:58:05Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:58:07Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:58:41Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:58:45Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:58:59Z abhixec quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:59:01Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T18:59:02Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-07T18:59:22Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T18:59:24Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T18:59:29Z andreyorst quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-07T18:59:57Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:00:02Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T19:00:37Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:00:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T19:00:41Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T19:01:16Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:01:19Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T19:01:32Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:01:55Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:01:58Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T19:02:32Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:02:36Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T19:02:46Z andreyorst quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-07T19:03:12Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:03:15Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T19:03:20Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:03:36Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T19:03:50Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:03:53Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T19:04:00Z andreyorst is now known as andreyorst`
2021-01-07T19:04:24Z jw4 left #lisp
2021-01-07T19:04:30Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:05:21Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T19:05:44Z fitzsim joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:07:15Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:08:32Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-07T19:09:03Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:09:04Z gabot joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:10:09Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:11:37Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T19:23:01Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-07T19:25:19Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T19:26:29Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:26:57Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:27:11Z nij: Anyone uses Nyxt as your main browser :) ?
2021-01-07T19:28:10Z greeb: had never heard of nyxt but I'm not extremely interested
2021-01-07T19:28:17Z greeb: I'm now***
2021-01-07T19:28:31Z nij: lol completely different meaning
2021-01-07T19:29:28Z greeb: yeah haha
2021-01-07T19:30:14Z nij: It's super cute. Still trying to find its weakness.
2021-01-07T19:30:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T19:30:33Z IPmonger_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:31:05Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:31:29Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-07T19:33:01Z greeb: surf is the only browser I regularly use that's like this, but I'm always looking for any excuse to use Lisp, and a browser seems like an especially good excuse
2021-01-07T19:33:01Z nij: greeb: are you truin git out?
2021-01-07T19:33:14Z greeb: I just cloned repo, yeah
2021-01-07T19:33:22Z nij: greeb: emacs, nyxt, stumpwm..
2021-01-07T19:33:39Z greeb: I'm a heathen. slimv, surf, dwm
2021-01-07T19:33:44Z greeb: :x
2021-01-07T19:33:49Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T19:35:11Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:35:51Z greeb: oh stumpwm comes from ratpoison? that's cool
2021-01-07T19:37:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T19:38:04Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:38:32Z nij` joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:40:08Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T19:40:56Z vegansbane6 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T19:41:20Z nij` is now known as nij
2021-01-07T19:42:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T19:43:45Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:45:18Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-07T19:53:40Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:53:45Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:57:50Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T19:58:02Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:58:30Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-07T19:59:42Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T20:00:00Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:02:49Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-07T20:06:46Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-07T20:09:14Z stargazesparkle: Does anyone know if slime can restructure a file? If so, what is the command?
2021-01-07T20:10:19Z contrapunctus: stargazesparkle: restructure? I think you want redshank for that sort of thing (...but does anyone even use that?)
2021-01-07T20:10:40Z stargazesparkle: I don't know someone said my formatting was shit and that I should fix it
2021-01-07T20:10:49Z stargazesparkle: And I want to know if there is an automated way to do that
2021-01-07T20:11:05Z vegansbane6 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T20:11:19Z contrapunctus: stargazesparkle: oh. smartparens or paredit. A single command will indent a top-level form.
2021-01-07T20:12:27Z contrapunctus: stargazesparkle: these don't add or remove newlines, though.
2021-01-07T20:13:33Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-07T20:14:02Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T20:14:08Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:14:15Z _death: if you mean reindent, you can C-x h C-M-\
2021-01-07T20:16:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T20:16:32Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:18:24Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:18:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-07T20:19:06Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:19:22Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:21:13Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:23:15Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:23:16Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T20:23:49Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-07T20:27:16Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-07T20:27:36Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:33:58Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:36:28Z vegansbane6 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T20:39:35Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:42:14Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:42:34Z jetsuo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T20:42:34Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-07T20:44:22Z pfdietz: Xach: I wonder how many quicklisp systems are acceptably licensed, if one includes all the dependencies they have.  It doesnt take many bad apples to spoil things.
2021-01-07T20:45:44Z nij left #lisp
2021-01-07T20:47:01Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T20:53:01Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T20:58:53Z phoe: That would actually make a good graph, or something.
2021-01-07T20:59:45Z Xach: pfdietz: acceptable means different things to different people
2021-01-07T20:59:53Z Xach: ok, my clhs lookup page has been fixed, at long last
2021-01-07T21:00:07Z Xach: fewer than 10 characters updated and it is back online.
2021-01-07T21:03:52Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T21:03:55Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-07T21:04:01Z pfdietz: Here, I mean "a company can use these without running into trouble".   L(L)GPL, not GPL, and not "vague words that aren't a license".
2021-01-07T21:09:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I'm not sure I agree with that read of the standard for +
2021-01-07T21:09:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: It could be read as "It might signal a type error" that is, you can't rely on + not signalling
2021-01-07T21:10:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: and then "when one of the arguments is not a number" specifies when it does signal a type-error
2021-01-07T21:10:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/when/if/
2021-01-07T21:10:21Z dbotton: I have a more interesting demo of the start of my CLOG project, a little video game that will play on mobile or desktop browsers. http://office.botton.com:8080  - the source is at https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/07-tutorial.lisp
2021-01-07T21:10:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: this would mean that (+ a b) might signal but (+ 0 nil) is specified to signal
2021-01-07T21:11:35Z dbotton: I'll leave it up a day or so, hoping to see if it errors out at all
2021-01-07T21:12:13Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-07T21:13:36Z vegansbane6 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T21:14:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: dbotton: I think it works for me, the click-targetting seems a bit inaccurate
2021-01-07T21:14:43Z dbotton: You expect to kill Darth easy :)
2021-01-07T21:14:52Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-07T21:15:02Z dbotton: On iPhones easier
2021-01-07T21:15:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Browsers disabled moving the mouse pointer, but if they hadn't I'd want an aimbot`
2021-01-07T21:15:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2021-01-07T21:15:39Z dbotton: Well this is just a tutorial
2021-01-07T21:16:18Z dbotton: Once I finish up the canvas code for 2d graphics I'll make something more interesting
2021-01-07T21:16:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm joking
2021-01-07T21:16:46Z dbotton: My main need though is for the form and text code for the larger project
2021-01-07T21:18:57Z dbotton: CLOG is really nice for teaching multithreaded programming.
2021-01-07T21:19:29Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, it can't rely on it
2021-01-07T21:19:36Z phoe: but it is allowed to
2021-01-07T21:19:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: that's not how I read the standard
2021-01-07T21:19:54Z phoe: code that depends on (= (+ 0 nil) 42) is allowed to be conforming but not portable
2021-01-07T21:20:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: The might doesn't apply to the situation where one of the arugments is not a number
2021-01-07T21:20:07Z phoe: why not?
2021-01-07T21:20:08Z phoe: clhs +
2021-01-07T21:20:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm
2021-01-07T21:20:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: The might there just means that + might in some circumstances signal a type-error
2021-01-07T21:20:19Z phoe: "Might signal type-error if some argument is not a number."
2021-01-07T21:20:33Z phoe: the "might" *literally* applies to the situation where one of the arguments is not a number
2021-01-07T21:20:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah "Might signal type-error (if some argument is not a number)"
2021-01-07T21:20:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is how I'd read that
2021-01-07T21:20:57Z phoe: and "might signal" means that an implementation is allowed to not signal
2021-01-07T21:21:02Z phoe: so it may do whatever instead
2021-01-07T21:21:03Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-07T21:21:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd read it like this if I ask can this form (+ a b) signal any conditions?
2021-01-07T21:21:56Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T21:21:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: The answer is "it might"
2021-01-07T21:21:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: When?
2021-01-07T21:22:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: When one of the arguments is not a number
2021-01-07T21:22:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: The English is ambiguous
2021-01-07T21:22:31Z phoe: no, that is "should signal an error"
2021-01-07T21:22:42Z phoe: clhs 1.4.2
2021-01-07T21:22:42Z specbot: Error Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm
2021-01-07T21:22:46Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-07T21:22:55Z phoe: this clearly describes the difference between "should" and "might"
2021-01-07T21:23:12Z phoe: in RFC terms, "should" means that safe code MUST signal and unsafe code SHOULD signal
2021-01-07T21:23:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, maybe that's right
2021-01-07T21:23:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm
2021-01-07T21:23:27Z phoe: whereas "might" means that safe and unsafe code alike MAY signal but also MAY do whatever
2021-01-07T21:24:25Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-07T21:24:42Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-07T21:24:52Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-07T21:25:38Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-07T21:26:00Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-07T21:27:12Z dbotton quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T21:31:12Z phoe: (and if it signals, then it must be of the given type)
2021-01-07T21:34:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T21:35:45Z edgar-rft: hmm, if there is *no* argument, is it then not a number?
2021-01-07T21:36:02Z phoe: I don't think + can accept "no argument"
2021-01-07T21:36:09Z phoe: zero values are coerced into a NIL
2021-01-07T21:37:01Z edgar-rft: (0) => 0, at least in SBCL
2021-01-07T21:37:17Z phoe: (0)? that's an illegal function call though
2021-01-07T21:37:29Z edgar-rft: sorry, I meant (+) => 0
2021-01-07T21:37:38Z phoe: oh, + is well behaved with zero arguments
2021-01-07T21:37:45Z phoe: because it accepts a &rest which may be empty
2021-01-07T21:38:15Z Alfr: edgar-rft, sum of numbers, empty sum => 0
2021-01-07T21:39:02Z Duuqnd quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T21:39:33Z edgar-rft: yes, but the question was: as you can see there are *no* arguments, are they numbers?
2021-01-07T21:39:53Z phoe: is what exactly numbers
2021-01-07T21:40:02Z phoe: + accepts N arguments, and all of them must be numbers
2021-01-07T21:40:03Z Alfr: edgar-rft, all arguments (admittedly none in that case) are numbers.
2021-01-07T21:40:05Z phoe: 0 arguments, 0 problems
2021-01-07T21:40:45Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-07T21:41:05Z Bike: no arguments = no non-numbers.
2021-01-07T21:41:30Z Alfr: edgar-rft, or for type-error to trigger, there'd have to exist an argument which is not a number, see Exceptional Situations.
2021-01-07T21:41:57Z Bike: something something existential import.
2021-01-07T21:42:12Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T21:44:11Z edgar-rft: MIGHT-BE-NUMBER-P :-)
2021-01-07T21:45:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, now we need a TRIVIAL-NUMERIC-OPERATIONS library, I think
2021-01-07T21:46:37Z Alfr: fiddlerwoaroof, that'd end up a cesspool.
2021-01-07T21:47:05Z vegansbane6 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T21:48:20Z Alfr: fiddlerwoaroof, as long as you stick to rationals all is quite well within clhs, but once you start dabbling with floats all bets are off.
2021-01-07T21:48:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's just all the CL stuff with deterministic behavior
2021-01-07T21:49:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, floats are interesting in CL.
2021-01-07T21:51:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have a library that relies a lot on composing lambdas
2021-01-07T21:52:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are there any tricks to get implementations to inline lambdas and/or not allocate a bunch of closures?
2021-01-07T21:53:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've sort of idly thought about switching to a code generator and calling COMPILE, which would solve some problems and create others.
2021-01-07T21:54:59Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T21:57:56Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-07T22:01:56Z vegansbane6 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T22:02:21Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-07T22:16:10Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-07T22:17:10Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-07T22:18:58Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T22:19:25Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-07T22:23:46Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-07T22:25:41Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-07T22:27:05Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-07T22:27:59Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-07T22:39:07Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T22:39:29Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-07T22:40:24Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T22:42:28Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-07T22:43:03Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T22:47:46Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T22:47:51Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-07T22:59:42Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-07T23:01:07Z stargazesparkle: So I have slime and I have emacs
2021-01-07T23:01:18Z stargazesparkle: And I have an ASD
2021-01-07T23:01:35Z stargazesparkle: How do I then load my project into emacs so that I can access it from the repl?
2021-01-07T23:02:24Z moon-child: (asdf:load-system :whatever) from the repl
2021-01-07T23:02:32Z stargazesparkle: I keep seeing slime-asdf as a package that is supposed to be able to load the system HOWEVER it is not included with slime and I cannot find it in package-install
2021-01-07T23:02:36Z stargazesparkle: o
2021-01-07T23:02:36Z Alfr: stargazesparkle, asdf:load-asd or link it somewhere asdf looks for it, then asdf:load-system .
2021-01-07T23:02:39Z stargazesparkle: Let me try that
2021-01-07T23:02:51Z White_Flame:  it needs to be in a known path though
2021-01-07T23:03:11Z moon-child: Alfr: linking works ok for sbcl, but not ccl
2021-01-07T23:03:12Z stargazesparkle: The known path would be ~/common-lisp right?
2021-01-07T23:03:19Z moon-child: (haven't tried other impls, but it doesn't work universally)
2021-01-07T23:03:23Z White_Flame: asdf:*central-registry*
2021-01-07T23:03:24Z rpg: stargazesparkle: If you load "slime-fancy" then you will get slime-asd
2021-01-07T23:03:30Z White_Flame: however, easier to set up is to use quicklisp around it instead
2021-01-07T23:03:44Z rpg: stargazesparkle: Yes, putting your system into ~/common-lisp/ will make it findable.
2021-01-07T23:03:45Z stargazesparkle: I have quicklisp
2021-01-07T23:03:59Z Alfr: moon-child, oh really? Didn't encounter the problem yet, but thanks for the heads up. :)
2021-01-07T23:04:16Z rpg: If you have quicklisp, you can put your system in local-projects subdirectory of the ql install directory.
2021-01-07T23:04:27Z stargazesparkle: I...
2021-01-07T23:04:28Z White_Flame: or link from there
2021-01-07T23:04:32Z stargazesparkle: Uh need to find that stuff
2021-01-07T23:04:40Z stargazesparkle: I don't actually know where any of this installed
2021-01-07T23:04:56Z White_Flame: cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2021-01-07T23:04:59Z stargazesparkle: I know where ~/emacs.d is
2021-01-07T23:05:02Z White_Flame: ln -s ~/...my project/
2021-01-07T23:05:20Z White_Flame: (ql:quickload :my-project-name)
2021-01-07T23:05:34Z stargazesparkle: Okay here let me try something that I think will work
2021-01-07T23:07:59Z paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-07T23:08:19Z stargazesparkle: Okay that worked
2021-01-07T23:08:24Z White_Flame: cool
2021-01-07T23:08:47Z stargazesparkle: Do I have to reload my entire project to play with changes or only the s-expressions that I add/change
2021-01-07T23:08:48Z White_Flame: it's a few steps removed from bog standard lisp, but basically how the cool kids work today
2021-01-07T23:08:59Z White_Flame: depends
2021-01-07T23:09:33Z White_Flame: generally, if you recompile a function, the next time it's called it will use the new version
2021-01-07T23:09:47Z White_Flame: (unless it's inlined, or if it's directly referenced from teh same compilation unit, etc etc)
2021-01-07T23:10:04Z White_Flame: C-c C-k (recompiling/loading the entire current .lisp file) is generally an appropriate command to use
2021-01-07T23:10:32Z White_Flame: take care around defvar vs defparameter, and any toplevel closures
2021-01-07T23:11:01Z White_Flame: eg (let ((count 0)) (defun next () (incf count))) will reset the counter on reloading the file
2021-01-07T23:14:55Z aeth: White_Flame: you can fix that with macros
2021-01-07T23:15:31Z White_Flame: sure
2021-01-07T23:15:54Z aeth: i.e. add a hidden accessor function to the closure (or use multiple return values or something) and use that to initialize the "initial" COUNT on recompilation to something else.
2021-01-07T23:16:06Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-07T23:16:28Z aeth: i.e. if FBOUNDP at macro time, then call it take the old value, otherwise default to 0
2021-01-07T23:16:42Z aeth: just make sure not to do side effects
2021-01-07T23:17:23Z aeth: s/call it take the old/call it to take the old/
2021-01-07T23:17:57Z aeth: so in that particular example you would have to add another function, to avoid the side effect
2021-01-07T23:20:44Z aeth: This is ultra niche, but it's one of the coolest things you can do because the macro is conceptually simple, but what it does is very clever.
2021-01-07T23:22:50Z dwts quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T23:23:12Z dwts joined #lisp
2021-01-07T23:30:42Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-07T23:31:25Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-07T23:32:26Z SAL9000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-07T23:33:31Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T23:34:19Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-07T23:35:49Z stargazesparkle: White_Flame: tyvm
2021-01-07T23:35:59Z stargazesparkle: I am starting to... understand more wtf I am doing
2021-01-07T23:36:16Z stargazesparkle: I like how at the bottom of emacs when I type a function or whatever it gives me information about it
2021-01-07T23:36:40Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-07T23:38:05Z thmprover joined #lisp
2021-01-07T23:42:03Z lotuseater: stargazesparkle: oh yes really helpful
2021-01-07T23:43:56Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-07T23:48:25Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-07T23:51:16Z stargazesparkle: Is there a way to export all symbols from a package so that I can test them in the repl?
2021-01-07T23:51:36Z stargazesparkle: I know of (:export) but I have to list everything off by hand
2021-01-07T23:54:13Z phoe: in-package
2021-01-07T23:54:19Z phoe: I'd just switch to the package in question instead
2021-01-07T23:54:28Z stargazesparkle: Oh that...
2021-01-07T23:54:32Z stargazesparkle: Makes sense
2021-01-07T23:54:49Z stargazesparkle: idk why I didn't think to do that
2021-01-07T23:56:22Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-07T23:57:25Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-07T23:58:42Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-07T23:59:00Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-08T00:04:02Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T00:04:33Z White_Flame: nothing you do on the repl will ever damage your source code, so hack away
2021-01-08T00:04:56Z White_Flame: when you restart-inferior-lisp, you can reload clean from source, and any droppings your repl stuff left in the package will be gone
2021-01-08T00:05:16Z White_Flame: (well, barring issuing file commands etc from the repl, obv)
2021-01-08T00:09:55Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-08T00:12:44Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-08T00:20:14Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-08T00:23:38Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T00:25:08Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-08T00:25:33Z frost-lab joined #lisp
2021-01-08T00:26:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: C-c ~ switches the repl to the same package as your current buffer
2021-01-08T00:26:54Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-08T00:26:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: C-c x exports the symbol at the cursor from the current package
2021-01-08T00:33:00Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-08T00:35:27Z SAL9000 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T00:36:19Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-08T00:43:32Z harlchen quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-08T00:43:45Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-08T00:44:42Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-08T00:44:53Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T00:49:34Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T00:51:37Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T00:51:49Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T00:52:02Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-08T00:55:55Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-08T00:56:30Z frost-lab joined #lisp
2021-01-08T00:57:04Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-08T00:57:15Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-08T01:02:58Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-08T01:03:13Z bjorkint0sh quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-08T01:08:46Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T01:11:35Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-08T01:11:40Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T01:12:04Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-08T01:12:13Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-08T01:24:39Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-08T01:27:00Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-08T01:27:49Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-08T01:31:43Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T01:32:09Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-08T01:41:19Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-08T01:42:03Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-08T01:45:45Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T01:47:54Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-08T01:50:33Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T01:51:31Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T01:51:38Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T01:51:49Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-08T01:53:53Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T01:56:41Z stargazesparkle: I just made a radical fucking connection
2021-01-08T01:57:01Z stargazesparkle: Common Lisp works sort of similar to SmallTalk in how it's a system
2021-01-08T01:59:24Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-08T02:00:50Z Misha_B joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:03:51Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-08T02:04:14Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T02:04:49Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:05:13Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:05:53Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T02:06:05Z Gnuxie[m]: If it weren't a system it'd be a bag of shit
2021-01-08T02:07:37Z Gnuxie[m]: It's very fortunate
2021-01-08T02:10:31Z aeth: Smalltalk and Common Lisp are very close languages.
2021-01-08T02:11:48Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T02:12:14Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:14:12Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:16:52Z devon: What are your favorite COMPOSE and CURRY implementations?  Hard to believe they're not in the standard.
2021-01-08T02:16:57Z aeth: Smalltalk takes images a bit further than CL does. CL takes OOP a bit further than Smalltalk does. This is amusing because it's Smalltalk that's known for its OOP.
2021-01-08T02:17:46Z aeth: devon: Alexandria's is probably the most common
2021-01-08T02:22:32Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:27:52Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T02:28:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-08T02:30:20Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T02:30:34Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:31:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:31:14Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:31:51Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T02:32:18Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:34:23Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:34:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:36:43Z karlosz quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T02:38:37Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T02:41:06Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:41:27Z semz joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:42:25Z raoul quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-08T02:43:33Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T02:47:05Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T02:49:56Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T02:50:09Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-08T02:50:19Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-08T02:54:22Z loke[m]: devon alexandria is pretty much a standard library.
2021-01-08T02:55:34Z Bike: alexandria's has that interesting multiple-value-call trick
2021-01-08T03:04:03Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-08T03:04:25Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:05:16Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:06:44Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-08T03:07:37Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:09:58Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T03:10:29Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:12:12Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:12:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Alexandria has a handy compiler-macro for it too
2021-01-08T03:14:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like using a macro to alias • to ALEXANDRIA:COMPOSE
2021-01-08T03:14:23Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T03:19:59Z dddddd quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T03:21:36Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:22:14Z dbotton quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T03:30:10Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-08T03:30:47Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:32:03Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-08T03:32:42Z dddddd joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:39:26Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:39:38Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:44:26Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T03:44:45Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:46:32Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:51:42Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-08T03:52:08Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T03:56:38Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T04:02:03Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T04:02:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-08T04:03:37Z mrios22: Good morning!
2021-01-08T04:04:25Z keyehzy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T04:04:42Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T04:08:42Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T04:09:34Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-08T04:10:30Z dddddd joined #lisp
2021-01-08T04:20:10Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-08T04:20:53Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T04:21:03Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T04:23:39Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-08T04:23:56Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T04:23:58Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-08T04:37:54Z stargazesparkle: I still don't understand wtf a macro is
2021-01-08T04:38:37Z beach: It is an ordinary function that takes Common Lisp code and returns Common Lisp code.
2021-01-08T04:38:40Z beach: Nothing else.
2021-01-08T04:39:04Z stargazesparkle: O
2021-01-08T04:39:08Z stargazesparkle: Wait
2021-01-08T04:39:10Z stargazesparkle: Hmm
2021-01-08T04:39:18Z beach: So it allows you to invent new syntax; new "special operators" if you like, by expressing new operators in terms of existing ones.
2021-01-08T04:39:44Z stargazesparkle: So it's like an automatic copy and paste sort of into existing code
2021-01-08T04:40:11Z mfiano: Macros are basically for two things: syntactic abstractions and evaluation control.
2021-01-08T04:40:21Z beach: I hadn't thought if it like that, but that's sort of accurate.
2021-01-08T04:40:23Z mfiano: If you need to create new syntax, or defer evaluation
2021-01-08T04:41:14Z beach: stargazesparkle: Another way of viewing it, is that you can program the compiler to recognize new syntax, because the compiler will expand a form with your new operator.  That is the reason we don't have to wait for CL21, CL24, etc, in order to get new functionality.
2021-01-08T04:41:20Z beach: The application programmer can do it .
2021-01-08T04:41:46Z stargazesparkle: I'm struggling to think of an example of that
2021-01-08T04:41:53Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-08T04:42:30Z stargazesparkle: Would arrow macros be considered new syntax
2021-01-08T04:42:38Z mfiano: For example, you can't re-implement `AND` as a function, because of its short-circuiting behavior. Function arguments are evaluated before application.
2021-01-08T04:42:38Z beach: That's what I said.
2021-01-08T04:42:44Z beach: Oh, arrow macros
2021-01-08T04:42:45Z beach: ?
2021-01-08T04:43:09Z mfiano: stargazesparkle: Yes
2021-01-08T04:43:24Z stargazesparkle: (-> 1 (+ 2 3) #'1+ 1+ (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) (1+))
2021-01-08T04:43:39Z beach: Not sure what that means, but it looks like new syntax to me.
2021-01-08T04:43:45Z mfiano: beach: Arrow macros are a clojurism to remove nesting.
2021-01-08T04:43:53Z beach: I see.
2021-01-08T04:43:57Z stargazesparkle: Ye
2021-01-08T04:44:03Z beach: stargazesparkle: New syntax is whenever you have an opeartor that does not behave like a function.
2021-01-08T04:44:13Z stargazesparkle: Hmm
2021-01-08T04:44:18Z mfiano: (-> 1 (+ 2 3) #'1+) ; => (1+ (+ 1 2 3))
2021-01-08T04:44:21Z mfiano: or something like that
2021-01-08T04:44:29Z stargazesparkle: Yes
2021-01-08T04:45:14Z mfiano: -> sends the preceding return value as the first argument to the unevaluated s-expression to construct a new s-expression, then evaluates it and repeats it down the chain
2021-01-08T04:45:27Z beach: Oh, the number of things #lisp participants are expected to master: Clojure, Python, JavaScript, Java, C#, all possible editors and IDEs, json, web stuff...
2021-01-08T04:45:32Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-08T04:45:38Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-08T04:46:22Z stargazesparkle: Yes
2021-01-08T04:46:38Z stargazesparkle: And because you have mastered them all you have been incredibly helpful
2021-01-08T04:47:29Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T04:47:32Z stargazesparkle: However, I use the arrow-macros library on quicklisp because it is nice to do those threading things
2021-01-08T04:48:45Z mrios22: I have seen people use let* as a way to get threading-macro-like behavior. Some readers may find the progression to be clearer when it is written that way.
2021-01-08T04:49:07Z beach: stargazesparkle: So [and this goes for almost any language, really] a function evaluates all of its arguments before the function is invoked.  You can write new functions in almost any language, like C, Java, etc.
2021-01-08T04:49:16Z mfiano: You can't use LET for threading macros. only to a very limited extent
2021-01-08T04:49:36Z beach: stargazesparkle: But if you want a new construct that doesn't behave like that, in most languages, you have to wait for the new standard.
2021-01-08T04:49:40Z stargazesparkle: I also use let* to break up nesting
2021-01-08T04:49:50Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T04:49:56Z beach: stargazesparkle: In Common Lisp, you use macros in situations like that.
2021-01-08T04:49:58Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T04:50:16Z stargazesparkle: That makes sense
2021-01-08T04:50:44Z beach: Now macros have a bad reputation because of the way they were implemented in C.
2021-01-08T04:50:54Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-08T04:51:16Z beach: String transformation does not allow you to do the things you need for your new construct to integrate with the rest of the language.
2021-01-08T04:51:48Z beach: But Common Lisp macros are not string transformations.  They rely on the fact that Common Lisp code has a standardized representation in memory.
2021-01-08T04:52:26Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-08T04:53:00Z beach: So Common Lisp macros are way more powerful than C macros, and they integrate completely with the rest of the language.  So completely, in fact, that many standard Common Lisp operators are specified to be macros.
2021-01-08T04:54:26Z mfiano: Even languages that have AST reflection like Rust, Nim, or Julia, it's pretty laughable how painful it is to write a macro not being homoiconic. Though, for some reason, Julia (a python-like-syntax language) calls itself homoiconic...
2021-01-08T04:54:48Z beach: Good point, yes.
2021-01-08T04:55:38Z mfiano: Some newer languages that have true macros with painful AST node construction call themselves homoiconic because of that. I don't get it.
2021-01-08T04:55:40Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-08T04:58:16Z beach: mfiano: I am often surprised to see people come here with their homegrown language that they desperately want to be "a Lisp".  Maybe that "homoiconicity" phenomenon is a similar one.
2021-01-08T04:58:28Z recalloc joined #lisp
2021-01-08T04:58:33Z mfiano: Wikipedia: A language is homoiconic if a program written in it can be manipulated as data using the language, and thus the program's internal representation can be inferred just by reading the program itself.
2021-01-08T04:58:38Z Nilby: When I programmed in C, I used macros like I use them in Lisp, but it was just far far more painful, since it crreates clashing syntax, and the only operations you have are substitution and limited concatenation. The emacs and clisp C code are examples of such trouble.
2021-01-08T04:58:40Z mfiano: I don't particularly agree with that definition
2021-01-08T04:59:13Z beach: Yeah, that's not quite enough is it.
2021-01-08T05:02:02Z beach: stargazesparkle: Here is a small example (of an existing macro).  Suppose I want an IF with no `else' branch, and an implicit PROGN, so that I can write (when (< x y) (print x) (print y)).
2021-01-08T05:02:08Z beach: stargazesparkle: Clearly, it is not possible to write WHEN as a function, because the PRINT forms would always be evaluated then.  So I can write a macro like this (defmacro when (test &body) (list 'if test (cons 'progn body)))
2021-01-08T05:02:21Z thmprover quit (Quit: This parting was well made)
2021-01-08T05:02:57Z beach: stargazesparkle: When I write (when (< x y) (print x) (print y)) the compiler turns it into (if (< x y) (progn (print x) (print y))).
2021-01-08T05:03:11Z ppbitb joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:03:31Z stargazesparkle: Won't that cause problems since the expanded macro has an if with only one branch?
2021-01-08T05:03:47Z mfiano: beach: like i said, laughable: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/d2258e1a8f42a93c04ad9e1f11c45a87
2021-01-08T05:03:50Z beach: That happens to be an acceptable form of IF.
2021-01-08T05:04:10Z beach: stargazesparkle: But I could have added a NIL to the `else' branch.
2021-01-08T05:04:27Z stargazesparkle: Interesting
2021-01-08T05:04:34Z beach: mfiano: Holy crap!
2021-01-08T05:05:01Z mfiano: Now image writing a practical macro completely with quoting and unquoting
2021-01-08T05:05:04Z mfiano: imagine*
2021-01-08T05:05:05Z beach: stargazesparkle: (defmacro when (test &body) (list 'if test (cons 'progn body) nil))
2021-01-08T05:06:23Z beach: mfiano: Laughable indeed!  Why do they never learn?
2021-01-08T05:06:34Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:06:39Z mfiano: I know a lot of these newer languages that try to be like Lisp fairly well, and it is enough to know that I don't ever want to use them.
2021-01-08T05:07:18Z saturn2: it's a really bizarre phenomenon, people who refuse to use lisp trying to mimic lisp
2021-01-08T05:07:31Z beach: saturn2: Exactly!
2021-01-08T05:07:54Z beach: Like I often say, people go to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp.
2021-01-08T05:08:10Z mfiano: There's more languages than there were Linux distribution's 20 years ago, because their authors haven't experienced Lisp, or were poorly educated about Lisp in school as usual.
2021-01-08T05:09:19Z beach: Yes, education is to blame for a lot of it.
2021-01-08T05:09:21Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-08T05:09:59Z beach: We (me and idurand) managed to teach Common Lisp to 120 undergraduates per year for 15 years or so, so I can say I did my part.
2021-01-08T05:10:23Z Nilby: Even when you have a Lisp-like language and only take away the homoiconicity, like in Dylan, the macro system becomes pretty crazy. Although Dylan is nearly the most sensible approach I can think of.
2021-01-08T05:10:24Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T05:10:26Z beach: Our "lectures" were done at the REPL.
2021-01-08T05:11:11Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:12:18Z mfiano: I would say Julia would be the cloest language to one I would want to use, but still far away from wanting to use it.
2021-01-08T05:12:19Z Nilby: Sometime I feel like all CS/math lectures should be taught at a REPL.
2021-01-08T05:12:57Z beach: Nilby: Maybe not "all", but yes, I see your point.
2021-01-08T05:14:43Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T05:15:15Z mfiano: One thing that disappoints me is how professors insist on just using Microsoft Notepad or similar for learning CL.
2021-01-08T05:15:27Z mfiano: Didn't we just have a visitor yesterday that insisted on not using Emacs?
2021-01-08T05:15:52Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:16:25Z mfiano: It disappoints me because we don't have any books that instruct one should be using SLIME/Sly. They all start by introducing the syntax, which I feel is very wrong, because it gives a false impression.
2021-01-08T05:16:46Z stargazesparkle: Yeah that visitor was me
2021-01-08T05:16:52Z stargazesparkle: And now I have spacemacs
2021-01-08T05:17:33Z matryoshka` joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:17:40Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T05:18:15Z stargazesparkle: Does let have an implicit progn?
2021-01-08T05:18:15Z mfiano: After all, one of the biggest criticisms are the parentheses, but newcomers don't understand that they don't have to count/balance them with the proper tools utilized.
2021-01-08T05:18:52Z stargazesparkle: (I use paredit)
2021-01-08T05:19:07Z mfiano: and they have no idea about the other introspection tools working with the image instead of sending text to a compiler.
2021-01-08T05:21:11Z mfiano: The sentence structure was completely messed up in that last message, but I think you get the point. Back to code
2021-01-08T05:22:16Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:24:11Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:24:19Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:25:22Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T05:27:02Z mrios22: stargazesparkle: I think it has an implicit progn. You can check by writing one and doing a macro expansion.
2021-01-08T05:27:34Z beach: stargazesparkle: Yes, LET has an implicit PROGN.
2021-01-08T05:27:42Z beach: clhs let
2021-01-08T05:27:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2021-01-08T05:28:19Z mrios22: (let ((n 1) (m 2)) (format t "Is this an implicit progn?~&") (format t "So far it looks like an implicit progn~&") (+ n m))
2021-01-08T05:28:27Z beach: stargazesparkle: See that form*?  That means that you can put any number of forms there.
2021-01-08T05:28:48Z mrios22: stargazesparkle: That's my bargain basement check :)
2021-01-08T05:30:08Z mrios22: I have a question about test suites like 5am. If I want to use the tests to check the non-exported functions in my lisp files, then how do I do that? Or does the test suite have access to the non-exported functions in a package?
2021-01-08T05:30:37Z stargazesparkle: From what I gather
2021-01-08T05:30:46Z stargazesparkle: You could (in-package) your tests
2021-01-08T05:30:47Z beach: mrios22: Just use package::symbol.
2021-01-08T05:31:11Z mrios22: beach: fantastic, that was what I was looking for.
2021-01-08T05:31:19Z ppbitb left #lisp
2021-01-08T05:31:30Z mrios22: Thank you. I'm still pretty new to this
2021-01-08T05:31:50Z beach: That will change, don't worry.
2021-01-08T05:33:24Z remby joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:33:34Z remby: help me pick a lisp
2021-01-08T05:33:57Z mrios22: remby: what do you need? What are you interested in?
2021-01-08T05:34:19Z mrios22: remby: Chances are that people on this channel will recommend Common Lisp because it can more or less do everything that you need.
2021-01-08T05:34:32Z remby: jit, small binary size, can build on various distros and unix
2021-01-08T05:35:03Z remby: I mean lisp compiler
2021-01-08T05:35:17Z remby: I think I'm in the common lisp channel right?
2021-01-08T05:36:24Z mrios22: remby: well, if you are looking for the ability to compile individual functions and files quickly, then Common Lisp can do that. I don't know anything about small or large binary sizes, sorry. And as far as I can tell, Common Lisp will work on any unix or linux that is out there. Most people here use sbcl as their common lisp compiler/interpreter. If you look up SBCL, you can figure out which platforms it operates on.
2021-01-08T05:36:42Z mrios22: remby: This is a common-lisp oriented channel, as far as I can tell.
2021-01-08T05:37:55Z mrios22: remby: you might want to take a look at Scheme as well. There are many implementations. My first lisp was Scheme. If you would like to learn about Lisp, CS, and scheme, you can read "The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs." It's free online.
2021-01-08T05:38:15Z remby: I've been trying out various schemes
2021-01-08T05:38:43Z remby: ran into a few issues with chicken so I decided to see what the common lisp scene was like
2021-01-08T05:39:08Z mrios22: remby: I ended up using Common Lisp as my main lisp because Common Lisp has standardization and quicklisp.
2021-01-08T05:39:43Z remby: you finished sicp?
2021-01-08T05:40:30Z mrios22: remby: Scheme is wonderful, but the implementation and library fragmentation scares me. Quicklisp is a library/package manager for Common Lisp implementations. I've never seen a library management system that is easy and convenient as ql. The author and maintainer of the quicklisp system, Xach, hangs out here and answers questions.
2021-01-08T05:40:46Z mrios22: remby: yes, I finished it, and my mind will be permanently altered (in a good way)!
2021-01-08T05:40:57Z remby: that's amazing
2021-01-08T05:41:04Z remby: I can't even fathom that
2021-01-08T05:41:27Z remby: there is fragmentation but that wasn't the main issue for me
2021-01-08T05:42:02Z remby: I guess I'm just looking for a reliable compiler
2021-01-08T05:43:05Z mrios22: With all languages the main question is "can it help me do what I need to do and be helpful rather than a huge hinderance, and can I think in this language without too much trouble" -- so Scheme can be good for some things and CL better for others. For example, if I ever needed to make use of continuations, I would work with Scheme.
2021-01-08T05:43:35Z remby: they aren't in common lisp?
2021-01-08T05:43:51Z mrios22: remby: People on this channel tend to be big fans of SBCL as a compiler. I switched from Clojure and Scheme to CL because SBCL is such a helpful and powerful compiler.
2021-01-08T05:44:24Z remby: hmm
2021-01-08T05:44:34Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-08T05:44:37Z mrios22: remby: Some libraries have implemented continuations. CL is so powerful that you can implement something like continuations. I'm not an expert, you probably should talk to phoe about this, but I think you can implement continuations using the CL condition system.
2021-01-08T05:44:50Z remby: what wait?
2021-01-08T05:45:09Z mrios22: remby: The Weblocks library implemented continuations so they could have a continuation-based web platform.
2021-01-08T05:45:13Z remby: how even
2021-01-08T05:45:30Z remby: that's nutty
2021-01-08T05:46:05Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T05:46:42Z mrios22: remby: That's a level of wizardry that's beyond me, honestly! I don't know how to implement continuations. At times I feel like I barely understand them. I think people in CL land avoid continuations for several reasons: they're hard to implement, hard to understand, and usually you can get away with not using them. A Scheme expert named Oleg once wrote an article talking about how continuations are probably not a good idea. Let me see
2021-01-08T05:46:42Z mrios22: if I can find the link for you.
2021-01-08T05:47:27Z mrios22: remby: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/
2021-01-08T05:47:48Z remby: oh this guy
2021-01-08T05:47:53Z remby: has a lot of notes :P
2021-01-08T05:48:02Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:48:08Z remby: thanks
2021-01-08T05:48:14Z remby: how long did sicp take?
2021-01-08T05:48:22Z stargazesparkle: Is a LET inside of a LET a bad practice? Or should I use setq to redefine a declared variable?
2021-01-08T05:48:26Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:48:36Z mrios22: remby: several months. Some ideas I didn't understand until a year later!
2021-01-08T05:48:56Z remby: I see
2021-01-08T05:49:00Z mfiano: You should never use SETQ, not even anywhere else.
2021-01-08T05:49:06Z stargazesparkle: O
2021-01-08T05:49:13Z mfiano: For  additional bindings, just add more bindings to the same LET.
2021-01-08T05:49:15Z stargazesparkle: What about setting a global variable?
2021-01-08T05:49:28Z mrios22: remby: it's like a mathematics textbook. Read it slowly, do the exercises, let your mind expand to the right dimensions before you continue XD
2021-01-08T05:49:42Z stargazesparkle: Well what if I need to do some processing before needing another binding
2021-01-08T05:49:50Z mfiano: Global variables are a code smell. Avoid them whenever possible. Common Lisp's "globals" are not true globals anyway, as they have a stack of bindings of their own.
2021-01-08T05:50:49Z stargazesparkle: Ex. I need to get a RESPONSE. That response may have a TOKEN. I want to do some branching if it doesn't have a TOKEN and some if it does. That does processing requires me to get another RESPONSE.
2021-01-08T05:50:55Z mfiano: That's what functions are for, no?
2021-01-08T05:50:56Z mrios22: remby: Back to your original question -- I'd try out SBCL and your favorite scheme implementation, and check out Clojure too. After some hacking you'll figure out what is best for your needs. :) I settled on Common Lisp because I feel like it has the best of all worlds and the people on this IRC are very nice and helpful. Have fun -- I need to get on the road :)
2021-01-08T05:51:22Z mfiano: (let* ((a (do-something)) (b (do-something-to-a a))) ..)
2021-01-08T05:51:40Z remby: yeah, thanks
2021-01-08T05:51:42Z remby: cya
2021-01-08T05:51:46Z stargazesparkle: Er... maybe better if I just post what I am working with
2021-01-08T05:53:13Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T05:53:14Z oni-on-ion joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:53:23Z stargazesparkle: https://gist.github.com/StargazeSparkle/9a1bac1a5fc48fcc735973471977c08f#file-spellcheck-lisp-L51
2021-01-08T05:55:01Z stargazesparkle: That line there I need to work with that response
2021-01-08T05:55:34Z stargazesparkle: Should I do another let to bind it or is there a way for me to create a nil binding in the first let and then set the value later if I need it
2021-01-08T05:57:55Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-08T05:58:16Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T06:09:14Z beach: remby: Contrary to what mrios22 said, you can't implement first-class continuation in portable Common Lisp.
2021-01-08T06:09:50Z remby: beach: so is this done is a special compiler?
2021-01-08T06:10:29Z beach: It is usually not done.
2021-01-08T06:10:39Z beach: And when it is, you get only limited continuations.
2021-01-08T06:11:29Z beach: But first-class continuations are problematic for Common Lisp in general.  Stuff like files that close and exit points that might expire.
2021-01-08T06:13:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: if the variables reference each other, you can use LET*
2021-01-08T06:13:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs let*
2021-01-08T06:13:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2021-01-08T06:13:22Z stargazesparkle: I need to maybe bind later
2021-01-08T06:13:29Z stargazesparkle: I know about let*
2021-01-08T06:13:38Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-08T06:14:06Z stargazesparkle: But I need an if in between bindings because I can't continue if I don't get an expected value
2021-01-08T06:14:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, yeah there I'd just do another let
2021-01-08T06:14:07Z beach: stargazesparkle: There is no simple rule about nesting LETs, using LET*, and using SETQ/SETF.  Each one has its use in particular situations.
2021-01-08T06:14:08Z pp joined #lisp
2021-01-08T06:16:05Z beach: remby: Contrary to what mrios22 said, SBCL does not fulfill your requirement for small executables.
2021-01-08T06:16:11Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T06:16:29Z remby: hrm
2021-01-08T06:16:35Z remby: the jit too?
2021-01-08T06:16:43Z beach: remby: You may want to look into ECL instead for that.  Then, I don't understand the obsession with small executables now that people stuff entire operating systems inside a "container".
2021-01-08T06:16:57Z beach: remby: I don't understand your question.
2021-01-08T06:17:18Z remby: does any common lisp compiler provide a jit?
2021-01-08T06:17:37Z flazh1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T06:17:39Z beach: remby: I don't think so.  Why do you need it?
2021-01-08T06:17:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Depends what you mean by "jit"
2021-01-08T06:17:56Z remby: hot code to native
2021-01-08T06:18:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: SBCL compiles everything to native
2021-01-08T06:18:22Z remby: I don't need one, I just want one :P
2021-01-08T06:18:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: I added a comment with one possibility
2021-01-08T06:18:27Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-08T06:18:30Z remby: fiddlerwoaroof: ah
2021-01-08T06:19:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: If the "else" side of your IF is just going to be NIL, you might consider using WHEN instead
2021-01-08T06:19:06Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-08T06:19:45Z beach: minion: Memo for mrios22: Try to avoid giving advice about subject you don't know.
2021-01-08T06:19:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell mrios22 when he/she/it next speaks.
2021-01-08T06:20:17Z stargazesparkle: fiddlerwoaroof: I am going to add error information there
2021-01-08T06:21:13Z aeth: it took way too long for someone to point out LET*
2021-01-08T06:21:13Z stargazesparkle: Say I have '((1 2) (3 4)) and '(5 6) how do I produce '((1 2) (3 4) (5 6))?
2021-01-08T06:21:29Z beach: clhs append
2021-01-08T06:21:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm
2021-01-08T06:21:41Z beach: (append x (list y))
2021-01-08T06:21:44Z stargazesparkle: LET* won't work here btw
2021-01-08T06:21:51Z stargazesparkle: I tried to use cons
2021-01-08T06:21:53Z beach: Sure it will.
2021-01-08T06:21:54Z stargazesparkle: Because I am dumb
2021-01-08T06:22:12Z remby: cons will not work there
2021-01-08T06:22:34Z beach: (let* ((x '((1 2) (3 4))) (y '(5 6)) (z (append x (list y)))) ...)
2021-01-08T06:22:49Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T06:22:52Z stargazesparkle: That is not what I was talking about :P
2021-01-08T06:23:20Z remby: '(((1 2) (3 4)) (5 6))
2021-01-08T06:23:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: I'm not sure if I have enough information to answer the question, what are you trying to do in the gist :)
2021-01-08T06:23:37Z stargazesparkle: append works great
2021-01-08T06:23:54Z beach: It usually does, yes.
2021-01-08T06:25:13Z remby: does anyone know where or if sbcl is used in prod?
2021-01-08T06:25:19Z beach: It is.
2021-01-08T06:25:20Z stargazesparkle: I am sending an http request that may or may not result in a token. If I get a token I need to send that token back in another http request. If when I do that it may or may not give me another token. If I do not get the first token then I need to return an error message because I cannot proceed further.
2021-01-08T06:25:21Z remby: just curious
2021-01-08T06:25:23Z remby: oh
2021-01-08T06:25:25Z beach: By Google for instance.
2021-01-08T06:25:32Z remby: wha, woah
2021-01-08T06:25:33Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T06:26:12Z beach: Google bought ITS which used SBCL for it's main product, an airline route thing.
2021-01-08T06:26:42Z White_Flame: I've deployed it to the largest nuclear power plant in the western hemisphere
2021-01-08T06:26:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: cool
2021-01-08T06:27:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's also been into space
2021-01-08T06:27:52Z stargazesparkle: lispworks gets the credit for the Hubble Telescope iirc
2021-01-08T06:27:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html
2021-01-08T06:28:06Z remby: wow
2021-01-08T06:28:09Z beach: remby: Don't get too excited.  It is easy to think that a company is a homogeneous thing.  In reality, companies consist of people, so the people who used to work for ITS probably got "bought up" with the company.  That doesn't mean that Google as a whole has a policy of using SBCL.
2021-01-08T06:28:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: They even connected to a REPL on a spacecraft and fixed a bug :)
2021-01-08T06:28:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: according to someone, they tried to rewrite ITA's product in C++
2021-01-08T06:28:37Z remby: it's still impressive, used for such intense projects
2021-01-08T06:28:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: They ended up with like 10x as much code and only marginal speed improvements, IIRC
2021-01-08T06:28:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: So they scrapped the rewrite
2021-01-08T06:29:06Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Why am I not surprised?  It has happened before.  Viaweb as I recall, but maybe it wasn't C++.
2021-01-08T06:29:17Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Heh, nice!
2021-01-08T06:29:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, this time it has a happy ending :)
2021-01-08T06:29:37Z remby ponders sbcl
2021-01-08T06:30:00Z beach: remby: Like I said, it doesn't correspond to your requirements for small executables.
2021-01-08T06:30:10Z saturn2: google published some open source CL libraries and a style guide, so i guess they're using it internally at least a little bit
2021-01-08T06:30:25Z remby: oh right
2021-01-08T06:30:48Z White_Flame: if you wanted smaller deployables, I guess you could ship .fasls?
2021-01-08T06:30:50Z beach: saturn2: Actually, it was Fare who wrote that style guide.
2021-01-08T06:31:01Z White_Flame: exactly the same as having the JVM installed and distributing class files
2021-01-08T06:31:05Z beach: saturn2: He just happened to work for Google then.
2021-01-08T06:31:12Z saturn2: i see
2021-01-08T06:31:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: It depends what you mean by "small", really
2021-01-08T06:31:23Z beach: saturn2: Again, companies consist of people.  This style guide was not written by Google management.
2021-01-08T06:31:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: My sbcl executables are like 32M
2021-01-08T06:31:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Much smaller than most of the other programs on my computer
2021-01-08T06:31:53Z White_Flame: when you take 32GB of heap space, the 32MB doesn't really count for much
2021-01-08T06:32:00Z remby: lol
2021-01-08T06:32:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: IntelliJ is like 1+G
2021-01-08T06:32:08Z White_Flame: and of course hard drives don't really perceive that amount of space anymore
2021-01-08T06:32:27Z saturn2: beach: but companies generally have rules too, most employees can't just start using any language they feel like
2021-01-08T06:32:43Z beach: saturn2: More often than you may think. :)
2021-01-08T06:32:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Slack is 182M
2021-01-08T06:33:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: saturn2: you can't use "just any language" for mission critical software
2021-01-08T06:33:19Z beach: saturn2: What most managers don't understand is the fundamental CS result of code/data equivalence.
2021-01-08T06:33:47Z aeth: saturn2: acquisitions are special
2021-01-08T06:33:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, you can use it to make things work better for you and then sneakernet the resulting tools to your coworkers :)
2021-01-08T06:33:58Z beach: saturn2: So you can present your new language as an input format for a program written in a different language.  They won't understand what happened to them.
2021-01-08T06:34:00Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: but you might use "just any language" for the test/dev deployment of the next version of the mission critical stuff
2021-01-08T06:34:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2021-01-08T06:34:26Z beach: saturn2: That's how I introduced Lisp in a Pascal-only shop, a long time ago mind you.
2021-01-08T06:34:29Z White_Flame: but yeah, tooling is a great place to inject lisp
2021-01-08T06:34:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I think with .NET the prototype of the GC was written in CL
2021-01-08T06:34:44Z White_Flame: especially as a code generator
2021-01-08T06:36:00Z saturn2: beach: interesting
2021-01-08T06:36:32Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, iirc they wrote a tool to automatically translate it to c++
2021-01-08T06:36:42Z beach: saturn2: Programmers are way too eager to follow rules established by people who have no clue of software development or computer science.
2021-01-08T06:36:45Z moon-child: and today it's still a single 30k loc file
2021-01-08T06:38:02Z White_Flame: you're giving me bad flashbacks of cyc and powerloom
2021-01-08T06:38:14Z beach: saturn2: This is even more important because the people who establish those rules don't understand what is best for the company they manage.
2021-01-08T06:38:19Z remby: since common lisp is so old, how is concurrency in common lisp?
2021-01-08T06:38:37Z White_Flame: remby: better than most languages
2021-01-08T06:38:45Z stargazesparkle: is (append (list '((1 2) (3 4)) (list (list 5 6))) clear?
2021-01-08T06:38:46Z beach: remby: There is a well-established thread culture.
2021-01-08T06:38:55Z White_Flame: with dynamic bindings being thread-local as a particular standout
2021-01-08T06:39:12Z stargazesparkle: Er... (append  '((1 2) (3 4)) (list (list 5 6))) I mean
2021-01-08T06:39:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I first started using CL because it didn't have a GIL and it was relatively easy to get a noticeable performance boost from threads
2021-01-08T06:39:27Z remby: what is a GIL?
2021-01-08T06:39:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Global Interpreter Lock
2021-01-08T06:39:35Z beach: stargazesparkle: Sure, but why avoid the quotes for the last part?
2021-01-08T06:39:44Z aeth: seems like a style mismatch to me
2021-01-08T06:39:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Python/Ruby/Ocaml all limit you to one active thread at a time
2021-01-08T06:39:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or did)
2021-01-08T06:39:58Z aeth: Ocaml is slowly removing it
2021-01-08T06:40:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: JS is just single-threaded
2021-01-08T06:40:04Z stargazesparkle: That last part is not going to be '(5 6) but more like `(5 ,x)
2021-01-08T06:40:12Z White_Flame: well, JS has web workers, and threaded I/O in the background
2021-01-08T06:40:14Z remby: i just keep getting impressed :^)
2021-01-08T06:40:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Haskell has a decent multithread story, but you have to buy into the whole Haskell thing
2021-01-08T06:40:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: The only system that's better on the concurrency front is the JVM/Clojure, IMO
2021-01-08T06:40:40Z White_Flame: but "JS is just single-threaded" is accurate enough :-P
2021-01-08T06:40:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: JS has fake threads
2021-01-08T06:40:54Z remby: fiddlerwoaroof: it's pretty nice in go
2021-01-08T06:41:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I always forget about go
2021-01-08T06:41:10Z remby: have not tried clojure yet
2021-01-08T06:41:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Can't stand the way it looks
2021-01-08T06:41:23Z remby: waah?
2021-01-08T06:41:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's in the Java tradition of high-boilerplate languages
2021-01-08T06:41:47Z remby: they fixed a lot and accommodated the C syntax family
2021-01-08T06:41:48Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-08T06:41:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Plus, it looks like C
2021-01-08T06:42:00Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: js web workers are real OS threads
2021-01-08T06:42:12Z remby: well, I heard somewhere that is a key to language survival :P
2021-01-08T06:42:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: yeah, but the programming model is pretty different
2021-01-08T06:43:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are they on node?
2021-01-08T06:43:25Z beach: remby: Homoiconicity is essential for avoiding boilerplate code.
2021-01-08T06:43:47Z beach: remby: Let me repeat this again: People go to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp.
2021-01-08T06:44:28Z remby: I will say block structure is difficult in lisp, at least visually
2021-01-08T06:44:37Z beach: Not really no.
2021-01-08T06:44:37Z remby: syntax matters
2021-01-08T06:45:00Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-08T06:45:01Z beach: remby: Oh it does, as in C syntax makes macros impossible, so boilerplate code becomes the norm.
2021-01-08T06:45:07Z remby: not sure what it is in CL, but nested map or for-each in scheme can be a bit tricky
2021-01-08T06:45:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: remby: I find CL encourages me to write programs as compositions of simple functions
2021-01-08T06:45:33Z moon-child: syntax does matter, but lisp syntax is excellent imo.  (Not as good as apl, but still very good.)
2021-01-08T06:45:36Z remby: beach: D has macros
2021-01-08T06:45:47Z remby: fiddlerwoaroof: yes
2021-01-08T06:45:51Z moon-child: remby: d doesn't have macros, it has 'string mixins', which are much worse
2021-01-08T06:45:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because when you have like three or for levels of nested forms, it gets ugly
2021-01-08T06:45:58Z remby: oh
2021-01-08T06:46:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, this is goodd
2021-01-08T06:46:05Z remby: I guess this is what rust does too?
2021-01-08T06:46:10Z beach: remby: I think you have no idea what Common Lisp macros can do.  They rely on homoiconicity.
2021-01-08T06:46:42Z moon-child: rust has macros, but they're hygienic, which limits their power.  And rust isn't homoiconic which makes them much less interesting
2021-01-08T06:46:44Z remby: I didn't not look much into macros yet, tbh
2021-01-08T06:46:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Elixir has macros, and they even square the circle, sort of
2021-01-08T06:47:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Dylan also solved the "non-expression macros" problem, I think
2021-01-08T06:47:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: "non s-expression macros", that is
2021-01-08T06:47:31Z beach: remby: Macros are the reason we don't have to wait for CL21, CL24, CL27 etc, to get new features that we want.
2021-01-08T06:47:40Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T06:47:47Z remby: I get that :)
2021-01-08T06:48:26Z remby: another example, having a let expression with mutple variable is hard to read if it's all on the same line
2021-01-08T06:48:42Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-08T06:48:57Z moon-child: well, don't put it on the same line
2021-01-08T06:48:58Z moon-child: :)
2021-01-08T06:49:05Z beach: Exactly!
2021-01-08T06:49:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: We have big monitors these days
2021-01-08T06:49:07Z remby: pft, easy way out :P
2021-01-08T06:49:36Z White_Flame: I've never seen (let ((a 1) (b 2)...) ...) on one line in real code.  Only IRC one-liners
2021-01-08T06:49:44Z beach: Same here.
2021-01-08T06:49:57Z beach: remby: I think you are inventing situations that don't occur in practice.
2021-01-08T06:50:12Z remby: no, just what happened when I coded on my own
2021-01-08T06:50:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nothing is as hard to read as this: https://github.com/lkowalick/j-interpreter/blob/master/source.c
2021-01-08T06:50:37Z beach: Oh, you complain about your own code?
2021-01-08T06:51:01Z remby: is that an IOCC entry? lol
2021-01-08T06:51:21Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: eh, it takes practice.  Like anything, you have to learn it before you can understand it easily
2021-01-08T06:51:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: People who write APL have weird senses of C aesthetics
2021-01-08T06:51:46Z remby: beach: yeah
2021-01-08T06:52:15Z remby: people who write apl are legendary
2021-01-08T06:52:22Z moon-child: remby: I mean, you can declare variables all on the same line in pretty much any language.  I struggle to think of one where you can't
2021-01-08T06:52:34Z beach: remby: So there is one great disadvantage with Common Lisp.  It can't fix code produced by bad programmers.
2021-01-08T06:52:51Z remby: ah, poor me
2021-01-08T06:53:23Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: I think that can mostly be attributed to arthur whitney.  APL-related c codebases not influenced by him tend to look much more normal
2021-01-08T06:54:02Z remby: c books usually say not do this ;)
2021-01-08T06:55:30Z aeth: someone needs to translate that into CL. Not cleaning it up
2021-01-08T06:55:52Z aeth: the main thing CL forces you to do is put spaces between (most) tokens, which even Python doesn't force you to do.
2021-01-08T06:55:56Z aeth: So you'd gain some readability
2021-01-08T07:00:52Z saturn2: it's a nice touch that there's a comment explaining the simple wrapper around malloc
2021-01-08T07:01:07Z saturn2: yeah that's the part i was really having trouble with
2021-01-08T07:01:31Z moon-child: I think that's somebody else who was annotating the original code and got stuck halfway through
2021-01-08T07:01:54Z saturn2: oh that makes sense
2021-01-08T07:01:58Z moon-child: the original code is https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Essays/Incunabulum and has no comments
2021-01-08T07:02:30Z remby: :')
2021-01-08T07:02:42Z remby: imagine getting that on your desk
2021-01-08T07:02:56Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:03:42Z aeth: remby: that looks like the output of a debugger for someone who wrote an s-expression->C DSL and decided to make it minified instead of human readable
2021-01-08T07:04:01Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:04:52Z jprajzne quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-08T07:05:16Z aeth: although, to be fair, it could be worse. 0: #\t 1: #\y 2: #\p ...
2021-01-08T07:05:51Z aeth: That's why you do "pretty print" instead of inspect on strings in SLIME
2021-01-08T07:08:04Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T07:08:33Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-08T07:08:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:09:13Z remby: I guess you guys all use emacs?
2021-01-08T07:09:46Z moon-child quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T07:09:53Z earenndil joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:10:42Z flip214: remby: no, a few vim people are around as well.
2021-01-08T07:10:52Z remby: cool
2021-01-08T07:11:28Z earenndil is now known as moon-child
2021-01-08T07:12:10Z solideogloria[m]: remby: no
2021-01-08T07:12:21Z solideogloria[m]: well sometimes
2021-01-08T07:12:36Z solideogloria[m]: I keep switching between emacs,vim and acme :D
2021-01-08T07:12:48Z remby: acme, that's wild
2021-01-08T07:13:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: remby: I started with vim/slimv
2021-01-08T07:13:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I still use it occasionally, it works pretty well
2021-01-08T07:13:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: someone on HN explained why the code looks like that.  Basically, the more global a name is, the easier it is to remember because it's used more, so why waste characters on a descriptive name?
2021-01-08T07:13:33Z solideogloria[m]: I like the mouse chords in acme
2021-01-08T07:14:19Z solideogloria[m]: and I use a script that automatically adds or removes parens depending on the selection
2021-01-08T07:14:23Z remby: kinda amusing we drag these environments around, but then again, the ones that support them are not always sufficient
2021-01-08T07:14:41Z remby: solideogloria[m]: cool
2021-01-08T07:14:53Z remby: you don't miss paren highlight?
2021-01-08T07:15:24Z solideogloria[m]: I have a script that simulates what emacs does when you add a closing paren
2021-01-08T07:15:37Z solideogloria[m]: creates a new window and tells what function it terminates
2021-01-08T07:15:50Z solideogloria[m]: so it takes care of that
2021-01-08T07:15:51Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:16:51Z solideogloria[m]: but I mostly toy around in acme, :)
2021-01-08T07:17:29Z solideogloria[m]: vim and emacs are way better experiences
2021-01-08T07:18:25Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T07:19:03Z beach: remby: To most experienced Common Lisp programmers, parentheses are transparent.  They just don't exist.  Indentation is what gives the clue to the program structure.
2021-01-08T07:19:24Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:19:25Z remby: I guess
2021-01-08T07:19:31Z remby: what about when you are at the repl
2021-01-08T07:19:35Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:19:39Z beach: Indentation works there too.
2021-01-08T07:19:43Z remby: I've gotten lost trying to close parens a few times
2021-01-08T07:20:07Z remby: but those lisps didn't have much for their repl
2021-01-08T07:20:12Z beach: The corresponding opening parenthesis should blink for you.
2021-01-08T07:20:21Z solideogloria[m]: Paren highlight works in the repl as well
2021-01-08T07:20:24Z beach: "those lisps"?
2021-01-08T07:20:31Z solideogloria[m]: oh you mean the bare repl ?
2021-01-08T07:20:37Z remby: yeah
2021-01-08T07:20:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:20:43Z solideogloria[m]: I thought you meant something like slime
2021-01-08T07:20:52Z beach: remby: Never use a bare REPL.  Always use SLIME.
2021-01-08T07:21:00Z remby: haha, I see :)
2021-01-08T07:21:16Z solideogloria[m]: remby take a look at sbcli if you want something more featureful than rlwrap for sbcl
2021-01-08T07:21:32Z beach: remby: You would typically have a split Emacs frame with the REPL in one window and one or more buffers next to it.
2021-01-08T07:21:33Z solideogloria[m]: https://github.com/hellerve/sbcli
2021-01-08T07:22:49Z remby: solideogloria[m]: thanks
2021-01-08T07:23:29Z solideogloria[m]: gives an experience like haskells ghci
2021-01-08T07:24:01Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:24:09Z stargazesparkle: I need to figure out smooth scrolling on Emacs
2021-01-08T07:24:53Z solideogloria[m]: smooth-scrolling is a package right ?
2021-01-08T07:25:18Z remby: of course it's in melpa :P
2021-01-08T07:25:27Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-08T07:25:55Z stargazesparkle: I just want the mouse wheel to not scroll a whole screen
2021-01-08T07:26:01Z stargazesparkle: Just like a line at a time
2021-01-08T07:26:13Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:26:35Z beach: stargazesparkle: It is much faster to avoid the mouse altogether.
2021-01-08T07:26:54Z solideogloria[m]: (setq scroll-step 1) ?
2021-01-08T07:26:59Z stargazesparkle: The key bindings for navigation are stupid af in Emacs
2021-01-08T07:27:04Z beach: stargazesparkle: For code, use things like M-f M-b, C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-t etc.
2021-01-08T07:27:06Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-08T07:27:26Z solideogloria[m]: that's why evil mode exists :)
2021-01-08T07:27:28Z beach: stargazesparkle: Which ones?
2021-01-08T07:27:30Z Nilby: stargazesparkle: mwheel-scroll-amount
2021-01-08T07:27:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:28:17Z stargazesparkle: I'm using spacemacs atm so I don't have to deal with stupid things like multi-key chords to move a line up or down
2021-01-08T07:29:18Z beach: stargazesparkle: It is much more efficient for Common Lisp code to move by program units than by lines/characters.  Plus, if you DO want to move up a line, C-p and C-n work fine.  Even the arrow keys.
2021-01-08T07:29:44Z beach: Since the control key and n/p are on different fingers, they are both instantaneous.
2021-01-08T07:29:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I use C-M-u, C-M-f a ton, once I discovered them
2021-01-08T07:29:56Z stargazesparkle: HJKL are much nicer
2021-01-08T07:30:23Z beach: OK, you use those then.  Good luck.
2021-01-08T07:30:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: The thing is, in CL you want motion commands that move by lists
2021-01-08T07:30:58Z beach: stargazesparkle: But please don't use words like "stupid" for the habits you don't understand.
2021-01-08T07:31:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: I almost want to go to "the opening parentheses" and so I hit C-M-u
2021-01-08T07:31:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/almost/almost always/
2021-01-08T07:31:31Z beach: I use C-M-a and C-M-e a lot.
2021-01-08T07:31:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, those too
2021-01-08T07:31:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: C-M-k to kill an expression
2021-01-08T07:32:41Z stargazesparkle: C and M are so far out of the way which makes them really inconvenient because I have to remove one hand from a typing position to strike them
2021-01-08T07:33:10Z solideogloria[m]: in vim it's just a % to switch between closing and starting parens
2021-01-08T07:33:14Z solideogloria[m]: in normal mode
2021-01-08T07:33:20Z beach: stargazesparkle: Put Control where capslock is, and use C-[ instead of M-
2021-01-08T07:33:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: solideogloria[m]: you have to be on the parens for that
2021-01-08T07:33:48Z beach: stargazesparkle: Again, please don't have opinions about habits you don't know.
2021-01-08T07:34:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you're at the beginning of the second argument of a three-line if expression, C-M-u takes you to the opening parens of the if expression
2021-01-08T07:35:11Z stargazesparkle: You can criticize the usability of something without having to go and adopt it first
2021-01-08T07:35:34Z beach: stargazesparkle: That should be avoided if you are ignorant of the way it is used.
2021-01-08T07:35:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, if you haven't learned to use something, you often don't understand the ergonomics
2021-01-08T07:36:30Z mrios22: I'm getting an error in the quicklisp fiveAM library. Can someone else replicate it to see if it's just me? I'm following the tutorial at http://turtleware.eu/posts/Tutorial-Working-with-FiveAM.html and I'm having trouble doing def-suite. Every time I try to run it, it raises an error saying that the name of the suite is undefined.
2021-01-08T07:36:30Z minion: mrios22, memo from beach: Try to avoid giving advice about subject you don't know.
2021-01-08T07:37:08Z solideogloria[m]: killing an expression in vim is a da(
2021-01-08T07:37:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: mrios22: I suspect you haven't imported the symbol into the current package
2021-01-08T07:37:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: solideogloria[m]: only if the expression is a list. C-M-k kills "a lisp expression"
2021-01-08T07:38:25Z beach: mrios22: Errors are not "raised" in Common Lisp.  They are "signaled".
2021-01-08T07:38:43Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T07:38:45Z mrios22: beach: roger that.
2021-01-08T07:39:41Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:40:45Z Mandus_ is now known as Mandus
2021-01-08T07:46:44Z mrios22: minion: ? I hope I didn't cause offense :)
2021-01-08T07:46:44Z minion: ? I hope I didn't cause offense ): An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/?%20I%20hope%20I%20didn't%20cause%20offense%20)?source" contains illegal character #\? at position 69..
2021-01-08T07:47:29Z flip214: well done ... bug bounty applies, here's a "b"
2021-01-08T07:47:32Z phoe: mrios22: minion is a bit, the original note was from beach
2021-01-08T07:47:46Z mrios22: phoe: thanks
2021-01-08T07:48:39Z beach: A "bot" rather.
2021-01-08T07:48:45Z phoe: bot, yes, sorry
2021-01-08T07:48:52Z mrios22: fiddlerwoaroof: I can replicate the bug by doing (progn (ql:quickload :fiveam) (def-suite test-suite))
2021-01-08T07:48:54Z beach: minion: Are you a bot?
2021-01-08T07:48:55Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
2021-01-08T07:49:11Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T07:49:33Z mrios22: The error happens when I define the suite.
2021-01-08T07:51:06Z saturn2: that tutorial tells you to write defpackage and in-package forms, you need those
2021-01-08T07:53:36Z mrios22: saturn2: I discovered the problem in my file. I forgot the (in-package ...) command. Thanks.
2021-01-08T07:54:12Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-08T07:56:01Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T07:56:12Z slyrus joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:08:30Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:11:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T08:12:11Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:14:15Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T08:14:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T08:17:55Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T08:18:20Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:19:47Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-08T08:20:05Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:20:40Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:21:32Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:23:51Z luckless quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T08:24:09Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:26:25Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:42:56Z solideogloria[m]: this might be a dumb question, but how do I check if the variable given to case is equal to multiple keys than just one for each form?
2021-01-08T08:43:35Z solideogloria[m]: (or key1 key2) form works, but it gives a style warning
2021-01-08T08:44:28Z ralt: what's the warning?
2021-01-08T08:44:47Z solideogloria[m]: duplicate key because I used (or key1 key2) twice
2021-01-08T08:45:40Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-08T08:46:44Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:47:04Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Just put all keys in a list.
2021-01-08T08:47:18Z beach: (case x ((key2 key2) ...))
2021-01-08T08:47:22Z beach: clhs case
2021-01-08T08:47:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_case_.htm
2021-01-08T08:47:25Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:47:47Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:48:10Z beach: Notice that normal-clause has (keys form*) in it.
2021-01-08T08:48:31Z beach: And notice that keys is a "designator for a list of objects"
2021-01-08T08:49:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:49:42Z beach: So it is not a type specifier, which means that your OR is just another key.
2021-01-08T08:50:09Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:50:30Z beach: So if you used OR in more than one clause, that might be the reason for the warning.
2021-01-08T08:53:02Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Look in the glossary for "list designator".  Then you will see that NIL designates an empty list, and any other atom designates a singleton list containing that atom.
2021-01-08T08:54:08Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:54:20Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-08T08:54:49Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T08:55:39Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Does that makes sense to you?
2021-01-08T09:05:23Z beach fears the answer is "no" :(
2021-01-08T09:06:35Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T09:08:21Z remby quit (Quit: remby)
2021-01-08T09:08:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T09:08:50Z remby joined #lisp
2021-01-08T09:10:28Z phoe: beach: they'll respond, have faith and patience
2021-01-08T09:14:28Z beach: Oh, OK. :)
2021-01-08T09:17:01Z scymtym__ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T09:17:56Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T09:23:10Z solideogloria[m]: got it beach
2021-01-08T09:24:05Z beach: Great!
2021-01-08T09:25:35Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-08T09:26:15Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-08T09:32:33Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T09:37:35Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-08T09:42:40Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-08T09:48:04Z Bubo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T09:49:38Z Bubo_ left #lisp
2021-01-08T09:50:28Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-08T09:50:35Z norserob quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-08T09:51:06Z BuboBubo joined #lisp
2021-01-08T09:54:23Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T09:54:59Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-08T10:00:35Z BuboBubo quit
2021-01-08T10:10:09Z stargazesparkle: What is this called: (1 . 2)
2021-01-08T10:10:20Z stargazesparkle: I am trying to learn what to call things
2021-01-08T10:10:29Z phoe: a cons cell
2021-01-08T10:10:39Z phoe: whose CAR is the integer 1 and whose CDR is the integer 2
2021-01-08T10:11:02Z stargazesparkle: What if I didn't have the .?
2021-01-08T10:11:05Z beach: Dotted pair.
2021-01-08T10:11:11Z phoe: then it would be a list of two elements
2021-01-08T10:11:12Z stargazesparkle: Is that just a cons?
2021-01-08T10:11:17Z phoe: (1 2) === (1 . (2 . NIL))
2021-01-08T10:11:25Z beach: (1 . 2) is a dotted pair.
2021-01-08T10:11:31Z stargazesparkle: Oh fuck that makes sense
2021-01-08T10:11:33Z beach: (1 2) is a proper list.
2021-01-08T10:11:46Z phoe: lists are made of conses
2021-01-08T10:11:54Z phoe: and conses are made of magic
2021-01-08T10:12:13Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T10:12:27Z stargazesparkle: (:a 1) is just a list too right?
2021-01-08T10:12:28Z frodef: NIL is the magic cons.
2021-01-08T10:12:37Z frodef: yes
2021-01-08T10:13:08Z phoe: yes, it's (:A . (1 . NIL))
2021-01-08T10:13:28Z phoe: frodef: actually NIL is not a cons
2021-01-08T10:13:55Z frodef: a list is defined recursively as either the empty list NIL, or (<element> . <list>)
2021-01-08T10:14:18Z frodef: phoe: hence it's magic ;)
2021-01-08T10:14:37Z phoe: frodef: a proper list, if we'd like the strict terms
2021-01-08T10:14:47Z phoe: lists can be proper, improper, circular
2021-01-08T10:14:59Z phoe: proper end with a NIL, improper end with a non-NIL, circular... don't end
2021-01-08T10:14:59Z saturn2: magic because the reader magically knows () is another way of writing NIL?
2021-01-08T10:15:12Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-08T10:15:27Z frodef: saturn2: and because (car nil) is nil.
2021-01-08T10:15:43Z saturn2: oh
2021-01-08T10:15:45Z frodef: ..and cdr, obviously.
2021-01-08T10:15:52Z phoe: that's a special case of CAR and CDR though, rather than an effect of NIL hypothetically being a cons
2021-01-08T10:15:57Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T10:16:32Z frodef: phoe: yes, but it's sometimes useful to think of as a cons-cell that points to itself.
2021-01-08T10:17:19Z beach: Maybe, but that would confuse the hell out of newbies.
2021-01-08T10:17:26Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-08T10:17:31Z frodef: isn't that what we're here for?
2021-01-08T10:17:37Z norserob joined #lisp
2021-01-08T10:17:49Z beach: Some people here seem to have that as an objective, sure. :)
2021-01-08T10:17:52Z phoe: well yes, and (typep nil 'cons) ;=> NIL
2021-01-08T10:18:16Z frodef: well, shouldn't be too confusing to anyone comfortable with pointers and linked lists, really.
2021-01-08T10:18:18Z phoe: so looking from the strict point of view, NIL isn't a cons - even if it kinda sorta behaves like one when put to CAR and CDR
2021-01-08T10:18:40Z phoe: Schemers will also heavily disagree because their CARs and CDRs signal errors with empty lists instead
2021-01-08T10:19:42Z phoe: I think that when someone goes for details and background info then it's important to know that CAR/CDR of NIL is NIL instead of an error purely for practical reasons
2021-01-08T10:20:32Z beach: And for hysterical raisins.
2021-01-08T10:20:51Z stargazesparkle: This has cleared up some of the confusion that I had
2021-01-08T10:21:26Z phoe: NIL being both a symbol and a list is actually a bit troublesome when it comes to optimizing list accesses
2021-01-08T10:21:32Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-08T10:21:38Z beach: stargazesparkle: Good.  What you need to keep in mind is that a Common Lisp list is not an abstract data type.  You constantly need to think about how it is represented.
2021-01-08T10:22:06Z Nilby: NIL being magic is a convenience that points to a deeper truth
2021-01-08T10:22:11Z phoe: the two common ways of representing NIL internally are representing it as a symbol and special-casing CAR/CDR, or representing it as a weird cons similar to (NIL . NIL) and special-casing tons of symbol operators
2021-01-08T10:22:42Z stargazesparkle: What do you mean by thinking about how it is represented
2021-01-08T10:22:44Z frodef: phoe: tons? Isn't it about 5?
2021-01-08T10:22:55Z phoe: frodef: well, compared to CAR/CDR
2021-01-08T10:23:01Z phoe: the former means that CAR/CDR are a bit slower now and they're heavily used in Lisp code; the latter means that things in the symbol world are gonna get messy because symbols also tend to be used a lot in some programs
2021-01-08T10:23:05Z phoe: stargazesparkle: how NIL is implemented
2021-01-08T10:23:27Z frodef: i'd say NIL is used tons more as a cons than as a symbol.
2021-01-08T10:23:38Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-08T10:23:46Z frodef: well, mostly it's used for its identity, I guess.
2021-01-08T10:23:53Z stargazesparkle: How do you differentiate between it's use as a symbol and as a cons?
2021-01-08T10:24:07Z phoe: stargazesparkle: by writing it in code in a different way
2021-01-08T10:24:09Z Alfr_: stargazesparkle, it's never a cons.
2021-01-08T10:24:16Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T10:24:19Z phoe: oh right - as a symbol and as a list
2021-01-08T10:24:25Z phoe: NIL, 'NIL, (), '()
2021-01-08T10:24:32Z phoe: these are four different ways conveying different meanings
2021-01-08T10:24:38Z stargazesparkle: Okay
2021-01-08T10:24:51Z stargazesparkle: I've only used the first thus far
2021-01-08T10:25:08Z phoe: (defun foo nil 42) would be a very bad way of defining a function though
2021-01-08T10:25:14Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T10:25:22Z beach: stargazesparkle: () is used for empty parameter lists.
2021-01-08T10:25:35Z stargazesparkle: Yeah I have used that form then
2021-01-08T10:26:00Z stargazesparkle: What does it mean when a ' prefixes a label or expression?
2021-01-08T10:26:06Z stargazesparkle: Like 'nil
2021-01-08T10:26:14Z Duuqnd joined #lisp
2021-01-08T10:26:16Z phoe: oh
2021-01-08T10:26:21Z phoe: you *need* to read an intro book to Lisp
2021-01-08T10:26:24Z phoe: like PCL or Gentle
2021-01-08T10:26:37Z phoe: it is a quote, and quoting is one of the most important mechanisms of Lisp dialects in general
2021-01-08T10:26:49Z stargazesparkle: I have read absolutely no books lol and am just brute forcing this shit so far
2021-01-08T10:26:57Z stargazesparkle: I should though
2021-01-08T10:27:00Z phoe: that's... a tough way of learning
2021-01-08T10:27:05Z phoe: (list pi 'pi pi 'pi)
2021-01-08T10:27:06Z stargazesparkle: It's been rough
2021-01-08T10:27:11Z phoe: no wonder it's been rough
2021-01-08T10:27:20Z beach: For the teachers as well.
2021-01-08T10:27:21Z Alfr_: stargazesparkle, or memorize the spec. ;)
2021-01-08T10:27:57Z stargazesparkle: Idk what #'1+ really means either but I do know that I can do that to sort of pass 1+ to another function
2021-01-08T10:28:08Z phoe: minion: tell stargazesparkle about pcl
2021-01-08T10:28:09Z minion: stargazesparkle: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2021-01-08T10:28:17Z phoe: please digest that one first
2021-01-08T10:28:40Z beach: Now I keep forgetting where in the Common Lisp HyperSpec those different uses of NIL are discussed.
2021-01-08T10:28:43Z phoe: it'll tell you all you want to know about ' and #' and how they differ and how they're used.
2021-01-08T10:28:51Z Alfr_: clhs 2.4.8.2
2021-01-08T10:28:51Z specbot: Sharpsign Single-Quote: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm
2021-01-08T10:28:58Z Alfr_: stargazesparkle, ^
2021-01-08T10:30:27Z stargazesparkle: Oh okay that makes sense
2021-01-08T10:30:44Z stargazesparkle: I swear I'm not dumb I just don't know the names of things
2021-01-08T10:31:21Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T10:32:09Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-08T10:32:16Z ralt: you are actually dumb because you don't want to read a few chapters of a free online book that will give you all the names of things you need :)
2021-01-08T10:32:37Z stargazesparkle: This is going to be like that one time I tried learning C and wrote code like *********deck because I don't actually know what a pointer was
2021-01-08T10:32:44Z stargazesparkle: I'll read it when I wake up
2021-01-08T10:33:01Z stargazesparkle: Atm I am too sleepy to digest something as dense as a book
2021-01-08T10:33:24Z phoe: go get your rest then
2021-01-08T10:33:48Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T10:34:33Z stargazesparkle: I can't sleep yet
2021-01-08T10:34:39Z stargazesparkle: I'm just... in a limbo
2021-01-08T10:35:42Z frodef: lispbo?
2021-01-08T10:37:47Z phoe: well, this does sound like a problem #lisp cannot help you with
2021-01-08T10:38:04Z stargazesparkle: I'm sure there is a macro for it
2021-01-08T10:38:15Z stargazesparkle: Har har
2021-01-08T10:38:27Z stargazesparkle: Anyway GN and thanks y'all
2021-01-08T10:41:37Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T10:43:12Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-08T10:50:53Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T10:55:32Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-08T10:55:55Z oni-on-ion: that reminds me of learning C (on wolfenstein3d source code). did not know pointers for a while
2021-01-08T11:01:49Z EZEK joined #lisp
2021-01-08T11:02:16Z EZEK: hi
2021-01-08T11:02:28Z beach: Hello EZEK.
2021-01-08T11:02:34Z phoe: heyyy
2021-01-08T11:03:05Z EZEK: how are yall?
2021-01-08T11:03:13Z beach: That's off topic :)
2021-01-08T11:03:18Z phoe: beach: xD
2021-01-08T11:03:32Z phoe: come on, let's not be *this* orthodox
2021-01-08T11:03:51Z beach: EZEK: What can we do for you?
2021-01-08T11:04:19Z phoe: I don't imagine #lisp as a place where small amounts of greetings and small chat are considered offtopic
2021-01-08T11:04:37Z beach: EZEK: You are new here right?
2021-01-08T11:04:52Z beach: phoe: Hence the smiley.
2021-01-08T11:06:08Z phoe: Internet transfers emotions really poorly; the smiley could be read as sarcasm when lacking context, and I kinda don'have context because I know you
2021-01-08T11:06:17Z phoe: might not be the case for other/new people
2021-01-08T11:06:32Z phoe: s/don'have/do have/
2021-01-08T11:08:20Z beach: OK, I apologize.
2021-01-08T11:08:24Z beach: EZEK: ^.
2021-01-08T11:09:11Z phoe: no problem; it's just the issue of IRC being a poor fit for some things, like all protocols that perform human-to-text transformations
2021-01-08T11:09:18Z phoe: EZEK: what's up?
2021-01-08T11:10:55Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-08T11:11:10Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T11:20:01Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T11:25:39Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-08T11:30:46Z pfdietz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T11:35:03Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T11:37:36Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T11:40:46Z norserob quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T11:41:00Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T11:41:58Z jmercouris: good morning everyone
2021-01-08T11:43:27Z phoe: heyyy
2021-01-08T11:46:35Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-08T11:48:49Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack)
2021-01-08T11:50:38Z norserob joined #lisp
2021-01-08T11:51:50Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T11:52:07Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-08T11:56:20Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T11:56:32Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-08T11:56:32Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T11:56:36Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T11:56:37Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T11:57:03Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-08T11:58:15Z EZEK quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T11:58:47Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-08T12:01:02Z paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T12:01:23Z zxcvz joined #lisp
2021-01-08T12:05:16Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-08T12:10:19Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T12:10:38Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-08T12:11:36Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T12:14:46Z Bubo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T12:23:41Z Bubo_ quit
2021-01-08T12:24:04Z BuboBubo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T12:27:46Z BuboBubo_ left #lisp
2021-01-08T12:37:36Z scymtym__ is now known as scymtym
2021-01-08T12:41:51Z jmercouris: I have the unicode ID for a character, how can I convert that to the actual character?
2021-01-08T12:41:58Z jmercouris: I.E. I have 97, I would like to get a lowercase A
2021-01-08T12:42:01Z jmercouris: 'A'
2021-01-08T12:42:16Z frodef: CODE-CHAR ?
2021-01-08T12:42:25Z frodef: denoted #\A in CL.
2021-01-08T12:42:38Z jmercouris: frodef: right
2021-01-08T12:42:44Z jmercouris: that is not guaranteed to be unicode though, is it?
2021-01-08T12:42:45Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T12:43:00Z jackdaniel: it would be conforming for the implementation to return #\x
2021-01-08T12:43:22Z frodef: jmercouris: that's implementation-dependent, I believe.
2021-01-08T12:43:22Z jmercouris: right, so it happens to work on some implementations, but it is no guarantee
2021-01-08T12:43:23Z jackdaniel: afair the only gurantee is that (eql char (code-char (char-code char)))
2021-01-08T12:43:39Z jmercouris: I guess I will just have to settle for that
2021-01-08T12:44:04Z jackdaniel: from the practical standpoint it will be usually unicode though (or at least ascii)
2021-01-08T12:44:45Z phoe: for all practical purposes code-char is good on all implementations that implement unicode
2021-01-08T12:44:46Z frodef: there are libraries like cl-unicode that I'm guessing deals with this.
2021-01-08T12:44:54Z phoe: also cl-unicode
2021-01-08T12:45:21Z jmercouris: hm, OK, thanks for the help
2021-01-08T12:45:28Z jmercouris: I will look into these shims if it comes to be a problem
2021-01-08T12:46:48Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T12:49:37Z isBEKaml joined #lisp
2021-01-08T12:52:44Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T12:57:53Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T12:58:50Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-08T13:06:43Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:08:01Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T13:08:25Z aorst quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T13:10:28Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:21:46Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-08T13:22:32Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:22:34Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-08T13:34:13Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:35:07Z mrios22 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T13:38:10Z stzsch|2 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:38:36Z gutter` joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:38:52Z stzsch quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T13:38:52Z gutter quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T13:40:02Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:40:20Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-08T13:41:05Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-08T13:41:23Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:41:36Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:44:03Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T13:44:55Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:45:23Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:45:26Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T13:45:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:53:37Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:53:44Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:55:02Z Blackraider joined #lisp
2021-01-08T13:57:30Z Blackraider quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T13:57:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T13:58:25Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T14:04:21Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:08:25Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T14:12:56Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:13:31Z todun joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:14:41Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:16:26Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:19:01Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:19:43Z pfdietz: NIL punning is a bit of ancestral baggage in Common Lisp.  Scheme got rid of it, but also had many other differences.
2021-01-08T14:20:52Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T14:21:32Z frodef: scheme got rid of most of the things that are great about CL, imo.
2021-01-08T14:23:29Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:25:33Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-08T14:26:27Z jmercouris: I'm using gtk_widget_get_size_request from this page: https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkWidget.html
2021-01-08T14:26:42Z jmercouris: what I am trying to figure out is how to make a pointer to some memory address in CFFI
2021-01-08T14:27:02Z jmercouris: because gtk_widget_get_size_request is supposed to populate the addresses with the correct values of the calculations
2021-01-08T14:27:10Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:27:22Z jackdaniel: you know, this is documented in cffi manual
2021-01-08T14:27:31Z jmercouris: here is the twist
2021-01-08T14:27:36Z jmercouris: I am doing this with cl gobject introspection
2021-01-08T14:27:58Z jmercouris: therefore, I am not sure doing it the way I described will even work
2021-01-08T14:28:28Z jmercouris: also it is a "gint"
2021-01-08T14:28:30Z jmercouris: not an "int"
2021-01-08T14:28:33Z jmercouris: whatever that means
2021-01-08T14:28:42Z jmercouris: so I can't exactly just declare a int, can I?
2021-01-08T14:29:49Z jmercouris: so yes, I COULD (cffi:make-pointer 1)
2021-01-08T14:29:59Z jmercouris: but I don't know if that makes any sense
2021-01-08T14:30:47Z phoe: what type is a gint under the hood?
2021-01-08T14:30:56Z jmercouris: I have no idea I'm afraid
2021-01-08T14:31:15Z jackdaniel: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/42398762/why-does-gtk-have-gint-gdouble-which-are-just-typedef
2021-01-08T14:31:31Z jackdaniel: second result in dgg under "gtk gint"
2021-01-08T14:31:55Z jmercouris: I see, I haven't had much luck in the past with searching for GTK lore
2021-01-08T14:31:58Z jackdaniel: you could invest some time in searching for information skill
2021-01-08T14:31:59Z jmercouris: I am usually only looking at the documentation
2021-01-08T14:32:03Z pfdietz: I think cffi could use some optimization.  I made a change to it recently that sped up an application that uses it by about 10%.
2021-01-08T14:32:24Z jmercouris: pfdietz: you're telling me, we have CFFI performance problems ALL the time
2021-01-08T14:34:30Z frodef quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-08T14:35:24Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:35:37Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:36:28Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T14:36:50Z Duuqnd quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T14:36:58Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:37:22Z Duuqnd joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:37:34Z pfdietz: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/commit/83ff6f0e34faaa7639ed17dd32ea80f1c4fdc418
2021-01-08T14:37:51Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T14:38:19Z pfdietz: EQL hash tables can be much faster than EQUAL hash tables.  With the former, lookups on :uint32 were mostly hitting the hash table previous key cache.
2021-01-08T14:38:43Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:39:47Z pfdietz: I'm sure there are many other pieces of low hanging fruit.  For example, it doesn't have to constantly be rechecking for typedef circularity.
2021-01-08T14:41:20Z _death: this kind of performance naiveté is not limited to cffi.. we're just Lisp programmers abiding by Perlis ;)
2021-01-08T14:42:05Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-08T14:43:01Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T14:44:23Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:47:32Z pfdietz: On the plus side, it lets us engage in performance yak shaving.
2021-01-08T14:47:51Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:53:04Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T14:58:52Z luckless_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T14:59:19Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-08T15:00:45Z _death: there are a zillion testing libraries, but not a lot of benchmarking libraries.. asdf has a test-op but no benchmark-op..
2021-01-08T15:01:03Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T15:01:25Z pfdietz: My other performance peeve:  json parsers.
2021-01-08T15:04:31Z phoe: pfdietz: zulu.inuoe is working on this
2021-01-08T15:05:02Z pfdietz: I know there was discussion recently about it.
2021-01-08T15:05:12Z phoe: I'll race him a little bit, once I finish yak shaving a state machine library
2021-01-08T15:11:35Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-08T15:11:35Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T15:11:53Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T15:12:26Z jmercouris: ah... yes a state machine library, I am working on one as well
2021-01-08T15:12:29Z jmercouris: for internal reasons though
2021-01-08T15:14:47Z phoe: what is yours going to be like?
2021-01-08T15:15:24Z jmercouris: I will be using it for machine learning purposes
2021-01-08T15:15:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T15:15:33Z jmercouris: so it will just have a class called 'state'
2021-01-08T15:15:42Z jmercouris: and there will be a slot called transitions
2021-01-08T15:15:47Z jmercouris: and there will also be transition objects
2021-01-08T15:15:53Z jmercouris: transition objects can contain guards, predicates, etc
2021-01-08T15:16:05Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T15:16:09Z jmercouris: the whole point of this FSM is to model nominal operation of a system
2021-01-08T15:16:23Z jmercouris: when the system detects an errant transition, a guard not satisfied, etc, it signals an error
2021-01-08T15:16:48Z jmercouris: to elaborate, the slot called transitions will contain a list of transition objects
2021-01-08T15:17:25Z phoe: oh, sounds nice
2021-01-08T15:17:33Z jmercouris: the really cool thing about this model is that it can be trained by observing a system under nominal conditions
2021-01-08T15:17:52Z jmercouris: therefore I do not have to program 'what' to look for, I only give it some signals, and these are modeled by the system and saved in the transition objects
2021-01-08T15:18:19Z jmercouris: it's not a terribly complex system, but my goal is not performance or anything, but adaptability/customizability
2021-01-08T15:18:33Z jmercouris: as I will be using it to model and observe non-uniform systems
2021-01-08T15:18:57Z phoe: I'm trying to get compile-time checks for invalid transitions and such in my own FSM
2021-01-08T15:19:07Z jmercouris: that's pretty cool
2021-01-08T15:19:10Z jmercouris: how does that work at compile time?
2021-01-08T15:19:13Z jmercouris: are the transitions known at that time?
2021-01-08T15:19:31Z jmercouris: you have a description language for writing out your FSM?
2021-01-08T15:19:33Z phoe: first you define a state machine that lists all transitions, so which states can go into which states
2021-01-08T15:19:38Z jmercouris: I see
2021-01-08T15:19:53Z jmercouris: and then what is a so-called invalid transition?
2021-01-08T15:20:05Z jmercouris: a transition that does not exist in your drawn out FSM?
2021-01-08T15:20:06Z phoe: then you define what a given state does, and it has access to the info stored in a state machine information
2021-01-08T15:20:36Z phoe: and therefore a macroexpander for a given state can check if a transition is allowed in the state machine
2021-01-08T15:20:49Z phoe: if it's allowed, it can expand into proper code; if it's not, it can signal a macroexpansion-time error
2021-01-08T15:20:51Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp
2021-01-08T15:20:52Z jmercouris: hm I see
2021-01-08T15:21:00Z jmercouris: what kind of applications do you see for this?
2021-01-08T15:21:06Z phoe: a JSON parser :D
2021-01-08T15:21:09Z jmercouris: 11
2021-01-08T15:21:19Z jmercouris: ay yai yai, it all comes back to this
2021-01-08T15:21:30Z jmercouris: well, a good a usage as any
2021-01-08T15:22:30Z phoe: but, no, I want to be able to compile my state machine into a single tagbody form
2021-01-08T15:22:44Z jmercouris: I see, that will be a pretty novel approach
2021-01-08T15:22:45Z phoe: (well, a PROG form, to be precise)
2021-01-08T15:23:07Z phoe: no CLOS, no MOP, no method calls, no structs, no anything - just LET over BLOCK over TAGBODY that uses generated GO forms to jump across states
2021-01-08T15:23:11Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-08T15:23:21Z phoe: if I do it correctly, I'll also be able to test individual states rather than the whole state machine at once
2021-01-08T15:23:32Z phoe: should be fast.
2021-01-08T15:23:33Z jmercouris: that's crazy, you are basically writing ASM
2021-01-08T15:23:45Z phoe: (tagbody 10 (print "yes") 20 (go 10))
2021-01-08T15:24:07Z jmercouris: except you are rather writing a system to write ASM
2021-01-08T15:24:16Z jmercouris: you are writing a compiler for a JSON parser in a way
2021-01-08T15:24:41Z jmercouris: every time we write a macro, we are writing a mini compiler
2021-01-08T15:24:43Z jmercouris: if I think about it
2021-01-08T15:25:18Z luckless_ quit (Quit: luckless_)
2021-01-08T15:25:45Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-08T15:28:11Z phoe: well, if a compiler transforms source code into source code
2021-01-08T15:28:23Z phoe: then each macro function is a compiler
2021-01-08T15:28:55Z phoe: and since each idempotent mostly-pure function is allowed to be a good macro function...
2021-01-08T15:29:12Z phoe thinks, has he accidentally been writing compilers for the past few years?
2021-01-08T15:29:59Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-08T15:34:29Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-08T15:36:17Z jmercouris: phoe: you have, without knowing it
2021-01-08T15:36:42Z jmercouris: that's the difference between a Lisp developer and other developers
2021-01-08T15:36:51Z jmercouris: a Lisp developer writes compilers on accident
2021-01-08T15:37:37Z jmercouris: its the itch I had so often in other languages, I didn't even know what I was missing
2021-01-08T15:37:52Z jmercouris: I always thought to myself, "but all of these stubs could be auto generated"
2021-01-08T15:38:10Z jmercouris: sure there were mechanisms, kludges you could use, but sometimes a macro is invaluable
2021-01-08T15:40:43Z jmercouris: anyways, preaching to the choir is pointless
2021-01-08T15:43:18Z phoe: hm
2021-01-08T15:50:27Z Duuqnd quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T15:51:17Z Xach: if not compilers, nanotranspilers
2021-01-08T15:52:16Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T15:53:33Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-08T15:53:43Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T15:54:02Z _death: the compiler provides a hook for ad hoc extensions.. you can write an extension which is a compiler itself
2021-01-08T15:54:29Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T15:55:42Z jmercouris: pjb would argue that transpilers aren't a thing
2021-01-08T15:55:46Z jmercouris: and that the only thing is compilers
2021-01-08T15:56:34Z msk_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T15:56:35Z jmercouris: from Wikipedia "In computing, a compiler is a computer program that translates computer code written in one programming language (the source language) into another language (the target language)"
2021-01-08T15:56:41Z phoe: _death: do you mean the infamous *macroexpand-hook*?
2021-01-08T15:56:47Z msk quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T15:56:50Z jmercouris: maybe he means GCC extensions
2021-01-08T15:56:54Z jmercouris: or LLVM frontends
2021-01-08T15:57:01Z _death: phoe: I mean macros
2021-01-08T15:57:27Z jmercouris: isn't it kind of redundant to say "extensible macros"?
2021-01-08T15:57:34Z jmercouris: aren't macros by definition extensions?
2021-01-08T15:57:39Z jmercouris: so shouldn't we call Emacs just Macs?
2021-01-08T15:57:49Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T15:57:56Z _death: E is for editor?
2021-01-08T15:58:30Z jmercouris: yes, damnit :-D
2021-01-08T15:58:37Z jmercouris: EMACS (Editor MACroS)
2021-01-08T15:59:08Z pfdietz: I LOVE the macroexpand hook!
2021-01-08T15:59:15Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T15:59:37Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T15:59:48Z Josh_2: Hi, has anyone got any experience serving videos from hunchentoot to ios users?
2021-01-08T16:00:18Z raamdev[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-08T16:00:37Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: if you serve a big file, then you should be vary, that hunchentoot first loads the file into memory and after that it sends it
2021-01-08T16:00:43Z jmercouris: Josh_2: I have experience serving videos via Lisp
2021-01-08T16:00:52Z jmercouris: Josh_2: I VERY much strongly suggest letting a reverse proxy handle it
2021-01-08T16:00:59Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:01:02Z jmercouris: it will be significantly more performant
2021-01-08T16:01:11Z Josh_2: Well I use nginx
2021-01-08T16:01:20Z Josh_2: and pass traffic from nginx to my hunchentoot instance
2021-01-08T16:01:47Z Josh_2: the problem isn't just loading up videos and sending them jackdaniel, the problem is that safari has a very specific way you have to respond to certain headers
2021-01-08T16:01:49Z jmercouris: write a NGINX rule for this
2021-01-08T16:02:00Z jmercouris: and let it handle that directory separately
2021-01-08T16:02:05Z jmercouris: I'll show you a sample configuration file that I use
2021-01-08T16:02:08Z Josh_2: okay
2021-01-08T16:02:43Z jmercouris: Josh_2:
2021-01-08T16:02:44Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/2KTSY8AWK
2021-01-08T16:03:06Z jmercouris: as you can see, /static will be handled by Nginx, anything else will proxy pass through
2021-01-08T16:03:41Z Josh_2: right
2021-01-08T16:04:22Z Josh_2: okay I can have a similar config however the way my site works right now is you have a html page and within it a single video, the video is chosed based on a get parameter
2021-01-08T16:04:26Z Josh_2: chosen*
2021-01-08T16:05:07Z jmercouris: that is irrelevant
2021-01-08T16:05:15Z jmercouris: the assets on that page will still be fetched by Nginx
2021-01-08T16:05:23Z jmercouris: the page can be dynamically generated, but the content static
2021-01-08T16:05:28Z jmercouris: for example our homepage: https://nyxt.atlas.engineer
2021-01-08T16:05:35Z jmercouris: dynamically generated, the videos statically served
2021-01-08T16:05:38Z jmercouris: the images as well
2021-01-08T16:06:02Z jmercouris: am I making sense?
2021-01-08T16:06:07Z Josh_2: Yes I understand you completely
2021-01-08T16:06:10Z jmercouris: OK
2021-01-08T16:06:14Z Josh_2: but I don't think my example is so simple
2021-01-08T16:06:20Z jmercouris: are you sure?
2021-01-08T16:06:29Z jmercouris: unless the videos are dynamically generated, it is
2021-01-08T16:06:42Z jmercouris: even IF the videos are dynamically generated, you could write the file stream to the static directory
2021-01-08T16:06:52Z jmercouris: and have Nginx serve them
2021-01-08T16:07:05Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:07:23Z Josh_2: how do I get nginx to select the correct file? because currently I am just doing (to-octets (random (length <my static dir))) and then serving that
2021-01-08T16:07:42Z jmercouris: the correct file is determined by the URL
2021-01-08T16:07:49Z jmercouris: so you would create a video tag and set the URL to whatever
2021-01-08T16:07:57Z jmercouris: relative to your root
2021-01-08T16:08:04Z jmercouris: URLS can be relative
2021-01-08T16:08:08Z Josh_2: yes I understand that
2021-01-08T16:08:09Z jmercouris: so if you have something in /static/potato on your disk
2021-01-08T16:08:21Z jmercouris: you could have <video rel="/static/potato"> and it would load it
2021-01-08T16:08:30Z Josh_2: I guess I can just rename all the content to obscure their names
2021-01-08T16:08:30Z jmercouris: it would try to find an asset located at josh_2.com/static/potato
2021-01-08T16:08:36Z Josh_2: yes I understand
2021-01-08T16:08:48Z jmercouris: you may also require authentication for the assets
2021-01-08T16:08:56Z jmercouris: this can be configured for Nginx as well
2021-01-08T16:09:05Z Josh_2: Okay I think I know a solution
2021-01-08T16:09:29Z jmercouris: I guess you were trying to use Lisp as an insulation to protect some assets?
2021-01-08T16:09:35Z jmercouris: you can do the same with Nginx
2021-01-08T16:09:35Z Josh_2: nope
2021-01-08T16:09:57Z Josh_2: I am trying to serve random content each refresh
2021-01-08T16:10:11Z jmercouris: that is still very possible
2021-01-08T16:10:30Z jmercouris: I don't see what the problem is, your Lisp application just needs to know all of the content, which it can scan by itself using UIOP
2021-01-08T16:10:38Z jmercouris: it can then just randomize what video tag it generates
2021-01-08T16:11:02Z Josh_2: I have a redirect button that randomizes a get parameter, the get parameter is a random position in a list of files (the content) then when the page is loaded the video in that position of the list is loaded
2021-01-08T16:11:11Z Josh_2: yes
2021-01-08T16:11:19Z jmercouris: I see
2021-01-08T16:11:21Z Josh_2: I think I will do that, I will just have to mass rename the content
2021-01-08T16:11:24Z jmercouris: OK
2021-01-08T16:11:27Z jmercouris: I suggest using emacs
2021-01-08T16:11:35Z Josh_2: I am using emacs :P
2021-01-08T16:11:40Z jmercouris: you can use C-x C-q to edit the files en masse
2021-01-08T16:11:46Z Josh_2: okay coolio
2021-01-08T16:11:47Z jmercouris: in dired, the file names become editable like a text file
2021-01-08T16:11:55Z BuboBubo joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:11:58Z Josh_2: yep
2021-01-08T16:11:59Z jmercouris: good luck Josh the 2nd
2021-01-08T16:12:15Z jmercouris: hopefully that was helpful
2021-01-08T16:14:04Z jmercouris: so, whenever I launch a GTK window via Gobject introspection I lose my REPL
2021-01-08T16:14:08Z jmercouris: is there a way to prevent that?
2021-01-08T16:14:14Z jmercouris: so that I may still type interactively?
2021-01-08T16:16:46Z surabax_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:17:33Z Josh_2: do I have to keep the extension on my files for nginx to determine the mime type? they are all mp4
2021-01-08T16:17:38Z jmercouris: Josh_2: yes
2021-01-08T16:17:42Z jmercouris: Josh_2: typically
2021-01-08T16:18:39Z Josh_2: okay
2021-01-08T16:18:52Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-08T16:19:17Z surabax is now known as Guest58664
2021-01-08T16:19:17Z Guest58664 quit (Killed (rothfuss.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
2021-01-08T16:19:18Z surabax_ is now known as surabax
2021-01-08T16:24:59Z Josh_2: in your config file is 'root /root/nyxt-site/;' the root location of your site?
2021-01-08T16:31:12Z jmercouris: Josh_2: correct
2021-01-08T16:31:34Z Josh_2: okay cool
2021-01-08T16:32:01Z Josh_2: I just need a neat way of adding new files and keeping them in line with the naming scheme and all should be hunky dory
2021-01-08T16:38:08Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:41:50Z gutter` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T16:42:37Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T16:43:44Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-08T16:47:13Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:47:22Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:50:15Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T16:51:16Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:53:03Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:54:52Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:55:13Z todun quit (Quit: todun)
2021-01-08T16:55:26Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:55:50Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-08T16:56:21Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:59:02Z fangyrn joined #lisp
2021-01-08T16:59:45Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T17:00:22Z Bahman joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:08:59Z dyelar joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:09:00Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:09:23Z Josh_2: is there a way I can move a file without having rewrite the file in a new directory?
2021-01-08T17:11:38Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:11:47Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:13:55Z harlchen joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:15:22Z Nilby: Josh_2: maybe rename-file
2021-01-08T17:18:38Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T17:19:14Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-01-08T17:19:50Z yonkunas joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:20:55Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:25:57Z rogersm: Josh_2: does the code need to be portable?
2021-01-08T17:26:08Z contrapunctus: I happened to type `ecl` at a terminal and got this - http://paste.debian.net/1180220/ (typed and entered 1, but got the same prompt again and again; if I C-d all prompts, it segfaults.)
2021-01-08T17:29:35Z travv0: that's a pretty old version of ecl
2021-01-08T17:31:08Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-08T17:32:52Z kini quit (Quit: bye)
2021-01-08T17:33:27Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:37:29Z contrapunctus: Debian Sta(b)le
2021-01-08T17:38:36Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-08T17:39:13Z jeosol: Is anyone working on natural language processing with CL (open libs) and have recommendations. Looking at cliki, I see a few libraries langutils and elsewhere vseloved's cl-nlp. Haven't used any system in CL but family with python's spaCy
2021-01-08T17:39:32Z jeosol: s/family/familiar.
2021-01-08T17:40:50Z jeosol: Also, not an NLP expert, but my larger goal is to part some document, excel file and extract word tokens that my help me create rules (.e.g., crude decision tree)
2021-01-08T17:40:57Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:41:39Z fangyrn: jeosol: there is https://github.com/vseloved/cl-nlp, but I have never used it
2021-01-08T17:41:59Z fangyrn: sorry, didn't realize you already mentioned it. I am an idiot.
2021-01-08T17:42:18Z jeosol: fargyrn: no worries.
2021-01-08T17:42:37Z fangyrn: jeosol: If you use ABCL you will be able to use Java NLP libraries really easily and those are quite well-renowned, like the stanford one
2021-01-08T17:42:53Z jeosol: I am just trying to get high-level recommendations from those who may have worked in this space.
2021-01-08T17:43:02Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:43:05Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:44:04Z jeosol: oh ok. Unfortunately, my base code is in SBCL and never used other implementations, but I guess if nothing, I can look at ABCL and I can try to investigate separately
2021-01-08T17:45:14Z Steeve quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T17:45:59Z jeosol: fangyrn: Did you mean the Stanford CoreNLP above?
2021-01-08T17:46:25Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T17:46:55Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:48:28Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:50:01Z recalloc quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T17:52:35Z ym joined #lisp
2021-01-08T17:52:45Z hvxgr quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-08T17:54:09Z ym: Hi. Trying to wrap CLX into CLOS, getting error "Asynchronous VALUE-ERROR in request 31 (last request was 38)  Code 1.0 [CreateWindow] Value 0." Could somebody guess what the problem could be?
2021-01-08T17:54:56Z fangyrn: jeosol: yes. there is another one, openlp from googling right now. I just remember learning about
2021-01-08T17:55:27Z fangyrn: I just remember learning about corenlp. I thought it seemed like quite a good nlp library (it had a lot of cool papers, I don't know about documentation).
2021-01-08T17:55:58Z jackdaniel: ym: maybe you try to create-window with either x or y dimension = 0?
2021-01-08T17:56:16Z jackdaniel: while it is ok-ish for pixmaps afair it doesn't work for windows
2021-01-08T17:56:55Z jackdaniel: ym: what do you mean by "wrapping into clos"?
2021-01-08T17:57:27Z jackdaniel: while by default everything is a structure, you may easily change it with a flag, so instead of structure-class you have standard-class instances
2021-01-08T17:58:57Z jackdaniel: the flag is called xlib::*def-clx-class-use-defclass*
2021-01-08T18:00:16Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-08T18:03:47Z ym: I use classes to encapsulate CLX parameters like window position, geometry, hierarchy etc and also to be able to create window with default parameters like just (make-instance 'x-window).
2021-01-08T18:04:02Z ym: 0 window geometry doesn't seems like the case.
2021-01-08T18:05:36Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T18:08:41Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:09:13Z rumpelszn joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:10:11Z jackdaniel: I'd check for 0 values either way, that's what the error says
2021-01-08T18:10:47Z jackdaniel: erm, I've meant width and height, not x and y
2021-01-08T18:11:07Z jackdaniel: it would be easier if you could show the relevant code
2021-01-08T18:13:07Z rumpelszn quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T18:14:03Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:15:04Z ym: https://gist.github.com/yvm/674f062b21c318f6235ab77e36ccf54a
2021-01-08T18:15:05Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:15:11Z villanella quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T18:16:23Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T18:20:49Z jackdaniel: there is nothing wrong in your code that I could immedietely find
2021-01-08T18:22:20Z ym: Me neither. Same code without CLOS works fine.
2021-01-08T18:23:56Z jackdaniel: apparently it is not the same code - maybe try to minimize it and trace xlib calls in the working and not working version to spot a difference
2021-01-08T18:24:30Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: To me, I have a different approach. Essentially, if it's designed to be used inline, then being short probably makes sense. So vec+ might make more sense than vector-+... and Scheme's various aref equivalents are fairly annoying, e.g. vector-ref vs aref.
2021-01-08T18:24:56Z aeth: But most things aren't really designed to be used on one line with many other things... basically just refs and arithmetic, most of the time.
2021-01-08T18:25:03Z aeth: I guess SETF as well.
2021-01-08T18:26:36Z aeth: jmercouris: Generally, for Unicode, if I know the implementation is OK, I'll use the implementation thing (so CODE-CHAR / CHAR-CODE in this case) and then for implementations I don't know, I'll have dependency, maybe even an optional dependency that's only loaded for those generic implementations, that guarantees the behavior.
2021-01-08T18:26:43Z aeth: jmercouris: Because it'll be much slower.
2021-01-08T18:27:25Z aeth: jmercouris: e.g. an inline UNICODE-CODE-CHAR function that #+(or sbcl ccl ecl ...) uses CODE-CHAR and otherwise uses a portability library, just in case.
2021-01-08T18:29:01Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:30:00Z aeth: Something like this probably could be a library because it won't really cause any problems except if it makes something hit SBCL's inline expansion limit (which is to prevent accidental recursion of an inline function)
2021-01-08T18:30:02Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-08T18:34:25Z matryoshka` quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-08T18:35:00Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:36:53Z Josh_2: rogersm: no it doesn't
2021-01-08T18:37:01Z Josh_2: I'm using sbcl
2021-01-08T18:37:39Z rogersm: Josh_2: is this for unix? What about calling mv?
2021-01-08T18:37:48Z Josh_2: yes I could just call mv
2021-01-08T18:37:53Z Josh_2: I suppose that is the easiest way
2021-01-08T18:38:15Z rogersm: If I'm not mistaken asdf had a run-shell-command
2021-01-08T18:38:25Z Josh_2: uiop has a command for running shell commands
2021-01-08T18:38:35Z rogersm: uiop then
2021-01-08T18:38:38Z Josh_2: (uiop:run-program .. )
2021-01-08T18:38:49Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:41:37Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:41:41Z Josh_2: Yep worked like a charm
2021-01-08T18:44:10Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-08T18:48:43Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T18:49:26Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:49:55Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:50:15Z Steeve quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T18:52:11Z Josh_2: jmercouris: your version using nginx to serve content appears to be working just fine, thanks!
2021-01-08T18:52:15Z rogersm: any of you using Fukamichi's mito db library?
2021-01-08T18:53:53Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:54:58Z catern quit (Quit: catern)
2021-01-08T18:56:11Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:56:44Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T18:56:59Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:58:04Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:58:28Z matryoshka` joined #lisp
2021-01-08T18:58:35Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T18:58:38Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-08T18:59:24Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-08T19:00:18Z matryoshka` quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T19:00:36Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T19:00:41Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:01:39Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-08T19:01:57Z ym: Damn. How that comes that slime's restart-inferior-lisp doesn't actually restarts inferior lisp program?
2021-01-08T19:02:04Z phoe: wait
2021-01-08T19:02:06Z phoe: how
2021-01-08T19:02:08Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T19:02:09Z phoe: it restarts it for me
2021-01-08T19:02:28Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:02:34Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:03:27Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:03:29Z scymtym: it doesn't (and can't) work if the connection was made with M-x slime-connect instead of M-x slime
2021-01-08T19:04:25Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T19:05:00Z phoe: oh! yes
2021-01-08T19:08:18Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-08T19:09:41Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-08T19:10:03Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:11:19Z remby quit (Quit: remby)
2021-01-08T19:11:34Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-08T19:12:26Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T19:12:42Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:12:45Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:21:20Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-08T19:21:38Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:22:36Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T19:23:51Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-08T19:25:12Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T19:25:36Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:27:27Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T19:27:44Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:29:06Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T19:29:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone have experience with traversing all of an ASDF system's components and those of its dependencies?
2021-01-08T19:29:27Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:29:32Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: you mean getting a list of all transitive dependencies?
2021-01-08T19:29:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want to map over every component of every dependency
2021-01-08T19:29:55Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T19:30:00Z phoe: oh, *components*
2021-01-08T19:30:04Z phoe: I haven't done that
2021-01-08T19:30:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Plus every component of the specified system
2021-01-08T19:30:57Z joast quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T19:31:37Z joast joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:32:19Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T19:32:41Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:34:00Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:34:43Z devon: Has anyone ever used TRIVIAL-MMAP?  Examples don't compile, macroexpansion time file access, posix munmap called with wrong args, ... and that's just at first glance.
2021-01-08T19:35:59Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T19:36:17Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:38:41Z phoe: https://github.com/Shinmera/mmap ?
2021-01-08T19:39:34Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:39:46Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T19:44:28Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T19:44:37Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:45:35Z devon: QL seems entirely uncurated, except they have to compile.
2021-01-08T19:45:46Z Xach: devon: that's accurate
2021-01-08T19:46:05Z devon: LOL, how might we address this?
2021-01-08T19:47:28Z Xach: devon: I'm not sure - what is your goal?
2021-01-08T19:47:32Z contrapunctus: devon: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl ?
2021-01-08T19:48:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T19:48:09Z contrapunctus: (It's like sharing that link is my primary contribution to this channel. 😏)
2021-01-08T19:48:23Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:51:02Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-08T19:52:08Z devon: Xach: In this case, to use mmap without crashes, memory leaks, re-inventing existing systems, ...
2021-01-08T19:52:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T19:52:21Z Bike: have you tried shinmera's library?
2021-01-08T19:52:26Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
2021-01-08T19:52:33Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:52:43Z devon: The bad system was smallest so I tried it first.
2021-01-08T19:53:11Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:53:53Z Bike: okay, so i mean, if shinmera's library works you can use mmap without crashes and so on, so there's your goal met. If what you want is for the first system you find to work for you that's a little different.
2021-01-08T19:55:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T19:55:24Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:55:32Z Xach: devon: right - so do you see the process as doing more than just compile, like try running tests for each project too?
2021-01-08T19:56:46Z fourier joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:56:59Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:57:16Z fourier quit (Changing host)
2021-01-08T19:57:16Z fourier joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:57:53Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack)
2021-01-08T19:57:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T19:58:57Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T19:59:56Z devon: Xach: These particular broken examples are embedded in the doc and this particular broken system has no tests.  However, I see a clue in (quicklisp-client:who-depends-on "trivial-mmap") => NIL and (quicklisp-client:who-depends-on "mmap") => ("3bz" "cl-maxminddb" "mmap-test" "pngload")
2021-01-08T20:02:14Z Bike: the tests would just be written by the library developer, right? doesn't seem like that would work to weed out poorly functioning libraries, they'd just have poorly functioning tests
2021-01-08T20:02:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T20:03:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:07:10Z eddof13 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:08:18Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:09:04Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:09:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T20:09:21Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:09:50Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:10:01Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:11:23Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T20:12:26Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:12:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T20:12:37Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T20:12:45Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:12:57Z devon: Xach: To help find good systems, perhasp QL:SYSTEM-APROPOS or similar should allow ranking by popularity, i.e., how many other authors use this as a component?
2021-01-08T20:14:16Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T20:14:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T20:14:56Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:16:22Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:16:54Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T20:17:04Z _death: recently a dataset has been made that contains the number of downloads for quicklisp projects
2021-01-08T20:17:17Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:17:58Z Xach: devon: that's an interesting metric
2021-01-08T20:18:17Z Xach: some time ago i came up with a plan to allow anyone to contribute "tests" to any project, to be run when building quicklisp dists.
2021-01-08T20:18:36Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T20:19:03Z Xach: this is it --> https://github.com/quicklisp/qlt
2021-01-08T20:19:16Z Xach: i have not used it or tried to get others to use it though :~(
2021-01-08T20:20:20Z l1x joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:20:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T20:22:20Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:24:54Z devon: Xach: It's not in QuickLisp but I'll try it anyway.
2021-01-08T20:28:43Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T20:29:01Z Xach: devon: it sprung from a very specific situation and it might not solve a problem you have, though, sorry :~(
2021-01-08T20:29:10Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:29:15Z Xach: sprung? sprang.
2021-01-08T20:29:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T20:29:46Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T20:30:59Z stzsch|2 quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/)
2021-01-08T20:30:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T20:31:10Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:31:18Z stzsch joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:31:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:35:37Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T20:38:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T20:39:05Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:42:23Z _death: I too have a poc mmap library, but it may break at any time..
2021-01-08T20:43:29Z Josh_2: I have dumped my lisp image and it runs and executes as expected on my machine, but when I load it to my server I have the following problem https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2229#2229 now I don't understand why It's working fine on my machine but failing on my server
2021-01-08T20:44:43Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:44:56Z Josh_2: my server is running sbcl 2.0.6 and my machine is running 2.0.11
2021-01-08T20:45:04Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:45:38Z Josh_2: the image was build with asdf:make
2021-01-08T20:46:08Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:46:26Z _death: Josh_2: is your image a core file or an executable?
2021-01-08T20:46:44Z Josh_2: hmm
2021-01-08T20:48:06Z Josh_2: it is built with :build-operation "program-op" in my asd and I have a little makefile that loads the asd, quickloads the project then executes asdf:make
2021-01-08T20:48:11Z _death: shouldn't expect an old sbcl to load a core produced by a new one
2021-01-08T20:48:56Z Josh_2: oh also I have (defmethod asdf:perform ((o asdf:image-op) (c asdf:system))  (uiop:dump-image (asdf:output-file o c) :executable t :compression t)) in my asd
2021-01-08T20:49:34Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T20:49:40Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:49:43Z _death: an executable, so I guess the sbcl on your server is irrelevant
2021-01-08T20:49:56Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:50:19Z Josh_2: yes
2021-01-08T20:50:48Z Josh_2: well I guess I can just build the system on my server
2021-01-08T20:50:52Z Josh_2: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2021-01-08T20:50:54Z _death: I would try checking how clack "handlers" work, that may have something to do with the failure
2021-01-08T20:54:25Z erronius joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:54:53Z erronius: Is there anyoen here?
2021-01-08T20:56:01Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T20:56:50Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-08T20:56:58Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T20:57:09Z Josh_2: erronius: nope
2021-01-08T20:57:17Z Xach: erronius: i am here
2021-01-08T20:57:21Z Josh_2: except all the people who are talking obviously
2021-01-08T20:58:06Z erronius: Ah
2021-01-08T20:58:11Z erronius: Thanks for the info.
2021-01-08T20:58:42Z erronius: Now what? I've got things that are mandated of me that I've got to do something about but I'm not allowed to.
2021-01-08T20:59:04Z erronius: By my own actions.
2021-01-08T20:59:10Z erronius: "What do I do about the loopback adapter?"
2021-01-08T20:59:40Z erronius: Or usually because I never come to a terminal that I trust enough.
2021-01-08T21:00:28Z Josh_2: _death: building on the server worked
2021-01-08T21:01:11Z erronius: "Look at me, look at me, look at me!" But it's someone else saying that, but I'm the me, of them, that is who's being looked at?
2021-01-08T21:01:16Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T21:01:51Z erronius: At least I'm not involuntarily shouting "I'll take point!" anymore.
2021-01-08T21:02:01Z erronius: Gotta go
2021-01-08T21:02:51Z Xach: Ok
2021-01-08T21:04:06Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:05:45Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:05:51Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-08T21:06:31Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-08T21:07:57Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T21:08:16Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:08:33Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-08T21:10:57Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T21:11:15Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:12:25Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T21:15:14Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T21:15:34Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:18:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T21:19:14Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:21:22Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:22:29Z etimmons: Josh_2: Ugh. I've dealt with that error too many times before
2021-01-08T21:22:37Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:22:40Z etimmons: Clack lazy loads its backends
2021-01-08T21:23:14Z etimmons: Try quickloading :clack-handler-hunchentoot before the asdf:make
2021-01-08T21:24:05Z miracle_fox joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:24:13Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-08T21:29:25Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T21:31:11Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:36:20Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-08T21:38:54Z semz quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-08T21:42:09Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-08T21:43:30Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:43:37Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T21:43:52Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:45:15Z Josh_2: I am trying to connect my remote image using slynk, I keep getting the following error https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2230#2230 the file it is looking for does exist
2021-01-08T21:45:43Z phoe: Josh_2: does this file actually exist?
2021-01-08T21:46:13Z Xach: well, i'm thinking of adopting access into sharplispers temporarily
2021-01-08T21:46:23Z Josh_2: yes the file exists
2021-01-08T21:46:25Z phoe: Xach: you mean qlt?
2021-01-08T21:46:27Z Xach: no word from AccelerationNet about it
2021-01-08T21:46:32Z Xach: phoe: no
2021-01-08T21:46:33Z phoe: oh, access, the library
2021-01-08T21:47:20Z phoe: Josh_2: weird. (probe-file #p"/home/josh/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/sly-20201220-git/slynk/slynk-backend.lisp")? `ls -alh /home/josh/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/sly-20201220-git/slynk/slynk-backend.lisp`?
2021-01-08T21:48:05Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:49:05Z Josh_2: phoe the former returned the pathname
2021-01-08T21:49:21Z phoe: so the file *does* exist
2021-01-08T21:49:39Z phoe: let's grab a stacktrace
2021-01-08T21:50:52Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:51:22Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2230#2230 includes backtrace now
2021-01-08T21:51:37Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-08T21:51:47Z stargazesparkle: Aww, ironclad doesn't support AES in GSM mode
2021-01-08T21:52:04Z phoe: hey wait, that's a different error
2021-01-08T21:52:13Z phoe: the first one was about a .lisp file and the second is about a .fasl file
2021-01-08T21:52:29Z phoe: anyway, what if you hit restart 0 or something?
2021-01-08T21:53:00Z Josh_2: oh right
2021-01-08T21:53:04Z Josh_2: one sec sorry
2021-01-08T21:53:20Z Josh_2: if I hit 0 I get the error I mentioned
2021-01-08T21:53:23Z Josh_2: I will append that to the paste
2021-01-08T21:53:41Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2230#2230
2021-01-08T21:55:18Z phoe: weird; now it's complaining about completion, previously it was complaining about backend
2021-01-08T21:55:33Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T21:55:37Z phoe: do you have unix rights to access the file?
2021-01-08T21:55:46Z Josh_2: yes It's the same user
2021-01-08T21:56:08Z Josh_2: I will double check
2021-01-08T21:56:18Z Josh_2: oh wait thats on the remote server
2021-01-08T21:56:24Z phoe: ...
2021-01-08T21:56:34Z phoe: do you have the file on the same machine where you are executing the Lisp process?
2021-01-08T21:56:37Z phoe: :D
2021-01-08T21:56:37Z Josh_2: uh that might be why
2021-01-08T21:56:48Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-08T21:57:18Z Josh_2: #P"/home/manage/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-2.0.11-linux-x64/home/josh/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/sly-20201220-git/slynk/slynk-completion.fasl" that is a big invalid pathname
2021-01-08T21:57:30Z phoe: not really invalid
2021-01-08T21:57:38Z phoe: that's what CL caches look like
2021-01-08T21:57:49Z phoe: ...oh, wait, did you copy FASLs from one machine from the other?
2021-01-08T21:58:01Z Josh_2: no
2021-01-08T21:58:05Z phoe: huh
2021-01-08T21:58:13Z phoe: why did you get a josh pathname on a manage user then
2021-01-08T21:58:20Z phoe: oh well
2021-01-08T21:58:52Z Josh_2: manage is the user on the remote server
2021-01-08T21:58:56Z Josh_2: josh is my local user
2021-01-08T22:00:44Z Josh_2: that fasl doesn't exist on the remote server anyway
2021-01-08T22:00:55Z fourier joined #lisp
2021-01-08T22:01:00Z Josh_2: slynk-backend-tmpA72A9OJZ.fasl  slynk-completion-tmpD2D7RXIM.fasl  slynk-source-path-parser-tmp47SOVWJ1.fasl  slynk-tmp24BDVRKR.fasl those exist in the directory is it searching for
2021-01-08T22:01:00Z fourier quit (Changing host)
2021-01-08T22:01:00Z fourier joined #lisp
2021-01-08T22:05:58Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-08T22:10:09Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-08T22:16:15Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-08T22:18:41Z BuboBubo quit
2021-01-08T22:19:16Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T22:30:59Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-08T22:32:25Z manicennui joined #lisp
2021-01-08T22:35:42Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-08T22:40:19Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T22:41:16Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-08T22:42:37Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-08T22:49:27Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-08T22:52:39Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-08T22:57:45Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-08T23:01:56Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-08T23:02:20Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T23:02:45Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-08T23:07:11Z ex_nihilo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-08T23:09:44Z l1x quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-08T23:11:49Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-08T23:15:09Z frodef quite enjoys emacs keyboard macros.
2021-01-08T23:17:05Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-08T23:20:03Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-08T23:20:13Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-08T23:27:10Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-08T23:39:33Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-08T23:41:17Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-08T23:45:25Z pp is now known as ppbitb
2021-01-08T23:48:59Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-08T23:52:24Z harlchen quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-08T23:52:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-08T23:59:25Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T00:16:26Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T00:24:34Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T00:24:35Z yonkunas joined #lisp
2021-01-09T00:45:12Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T00:53:02Z hvxgr joined #lisp
2021-01-09T01:02:28Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T01:04:14Z jibanes joined #lisp
2021-01-09T01:06:19Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-09T01:15:36Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T01:22:56Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T01:27:56Z slyrus_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-09T01:38:10Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T01:39:38Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-09T01:45:54Z aorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T01:46:50Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T01:46:51Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-09T01:49:33Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-09T01:50:37Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T01:53:01Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T01:53:34Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T01:54:10Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-09T01:58:32Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T02:12:01Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-09T02:15:46Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T02:17:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T02:21:52Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T02:48:56Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T02:54:02Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-09T03:00:19Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-09T03:00:41Z johnjay: so from what i've read, scheme R7RS is split into a small and large language right
2021-01-09T03:00:54Z johnjay: how comparable to CL will the large one be?
2021-01-09T03:03:51Z waleee-cl: the only scheme with a object system is guile afaik, and that's an extension
2021-01-09T03:04:02Z waleee-cl: *an
2021-01-09T03:15:23Z frost-lab joined #lisp
2021-01-09T03:23:49Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T03:24:54Z stargazesparkle: I tried scheme but found Common Lisp to be a more... Complete? Language
2021-01-09T03:25:06Z stargazesparkle: A more useable one for sure
2021-01-09T03:25:26Z stargazesparkle: I tried racket and chicken scheme for reference
2021-01-09T03:29:07Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-09T03:29:18Z ldbeth: goodd morning
2021-01-09T03:31:27Z stargazesparkle: Good evening
2021-01-09T03:33:58Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-09T03:37:58Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T03:41:17Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T03:45:52Z contrapunctus: waleee-cl: CHICKEN has a bunch of object systems too, for sake of information.
2021-01-09T03:46:43Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T03:46:54Z waleee-cl: contrapunctus:  ah, ok. I only skimmed their page
2021-01-09T03:48:03Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-09T03:48:25Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-09T03:50:12Z waleee-cl: contrapunctus:  hm, but it's not listed as a feature
2021-01-09T03:51:03Z waleee-cl: ah, there it was: https://wiki.call-cc.org/records-and-oop
2021-01-09T03:51:27Z waleee-cl: kind of
2021-01-09T03:51:52Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-09T03:52:33Z waleee-cl: hm, but it doesn't seem to be listed as a feature
2021-01-09T03:52:56Z waleee-cl: ^ blame that on irccloud
2021-01-09T03:55:18Z contrapunctus: waleee-cl: they're extensions, as you say - http://eggs.call-cc.org/5/#oop
2021-01-09T03:56:07Z contrapunctus: Hm, there were more in v4 - http://eggs.call-cc.org/4/#oop
2021-01-09T03:57:24Z waleee-cl: unrelated; chicken has an awesome logo
2021-01-09T03:59:10Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T04:03:40Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-09T04:04:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T04:04:42Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-09T04:04:48Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T04:04:57Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-09T04:06:22Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-09T04:09:36Z jibanes quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T04:10:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-09T04:10:47Z jibanes joined #lisp
2021-01-09T04:11:26Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T04:11:50Z ome joined #lisp
2021-01-09T04:12:17Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-09T04:12:19Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-09T04:14:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp
2021-01-09T04:18:19Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-09T04:24:22Z sm2n quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-09T04:24:43Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-09T04:46:20Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-09T04:48:07Z Iolo joined #lisp
2021-01-09T04:49:56Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T04:55:56Z stoneglass joined #lisp
2021-01-09T04:56:10Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-09T05:02:40Z vidak` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T05:03:49Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T05:05:27Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-09T05:08:02Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-09T05:20:13Z gutter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T05:45:27Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-09T05:53:42Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-09T05:54:44Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T05:55:06Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-09T05:59:18Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-09T05:59:37Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-09T06:02:43Z xsperry quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T06:05:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach
2021-01-09T06:05:59Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-09T06:08:19Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T06:13:09Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T06:14:52Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-09T06:16:53Z ecm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T06:27:09Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T06:31:58Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-09T06:39:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T06:39:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T06:40:05Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-09T06:41:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-09T06:46:45Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-09T06:50:22Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-09T06:53:42Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T06:53:45Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-09T06:54:37Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-09T07:01:07Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T07:01:13Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-09T07:01:39Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-09T07:06:06Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T07:14:37Z miracle_fox quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T07:15:23Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-09T07:15:25Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-09T07:25:18Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T07:30:20Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-09T07:30:20Z ome quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T07:30:30Z phantomics_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T07:38:16Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T07:38:37Z DateMasamune2000 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T07:39:52Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T07:39:59Z DateMasamune2000 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T07:40:29Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-09T07:40:34Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-09T07:44:48Z solideogloria[m]: does anyone here use rainbow-delimeters ?
2021-01-09T07:44:50Z solideogloria[m]: in emacs
2021-01-09T07:44:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yes
2021-01-09T07:45:01Z oni-on-ion: yes
2021-01-09T07:45:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: And highlight-parentheses
2021-01-09T07:45:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T07:45:32Z oni-on-ion: dont have that, but they are highlighted matching (paredit, slime )
2021-01-09T07:46:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: highlight-parentheses gives a special face to the parens around the current form
2021-01-09T07:46:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's moderately useful when you have complicated code
2021-01-09T07:46:44Z Codaraxis quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-09T07:47:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: For a "two newlines" string literal, would people prefer #.(format nil "~%~%") or #.(coerce '(#1=#\newline #1#) 'string)?
2021-01-09T07:47:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, am I missing an obvious (one-line) way to represent this?
2021-01-09T07:47:37Z oni-on-ion: https://postimg.cc/tsXGpNzp
2021-01-09T07:47:47Z aeth: format nil might be the way to go
2021-01-09T07:47:52Z oni-on-ion: #| ?
2021-01-09T07:47:59Z aeth: but ~%~% is fairly unusual and ~2% is technically possible, too iirc
2021-01-09T07:48:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I forgot that
2021-01-09T07:48:23Z aeth: right, because it's rare to do this
2021-01-09T07:48:25Z oni-on-ion: doesn't parser append/concat the newlines
2021-01-09T07:48:30Z oni-on-ion: ""\n ""\n ..
2021-01-09T07:48:44Z aeth: personally, if I'm in a ~%~% situation I usually just TERPRI the second ~% instead, for clarity
2021-01-09T07:49:01Z aeth: but that won't really work here because you're doing FORMAT NIL
2021-01-09T07:49:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: O, I need a _string literal_
2021-01-09T07:49:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, there's a #.(...)
2021-01-09T07:49:28Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T07:52:03Z oni-on-ion: um then what are quotes even for ?
2021-01-09T07:52:23Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-09T08:01:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem with quotes is that I need to use one line of vertical space per newline in the string
2021-01-09T08:02:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also, personally, find multiline double-quoted strings really ugly
2021-01-09T08:03:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: The nice thing about #. is that you can have the reader run arbitrary lisp and put arbitrary objects into the read value.
2021-01-09T08:04:36Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-09T08:04:39Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-09T08:05:14Z oni-on-ion: newline is new line...
2021-01-09T08:05:41Z oni-on-ion: sounds otherwise like you know what you are doing. how come asking ?
2021-01-09T08:06:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was wondering if I was missing an obvious way to do this, without adding extra line breaks to my code
2021-01-09T08:06:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: #.(format nil "~2%") reads the best to me
2021-01-09T08:18:18Z stoneglass quit (Quit: stoneglass)
2021-01-09T08:20:36Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-09T08:24:00Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T08:31:20Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T08:31:50Z IPmonger_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T08:32:58Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-09T08:36:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: A little thing I've been working on, to make data manipulation a bit more ergonomic in CL
2021-01-09T08:36:59Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-09T08:36:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/d1113039db07d1bca69336083872fc44efc179e3.nil.html
2021-01-09T08:40:39Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T08:40:47Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-09T08:41:08Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T08:45:49Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T08:50:19Z oni-on-ion quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T08:53:10Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T08:54:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there something weird about the bindings of variables in (LOOP FOR VAR IN ...)?
2021-01-09T08:54:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2232#2232
2021-01-09T08:54:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: It looks like sbcl binds the variable with dynamic scope
2021-01-09T08:54:44Z phoe: no, you close over it
2021-01-09T08:55:07Z phoe: forming closures over loop variables is a common headache in lisp programmers
2021-01-09T08:55:13Z phoe: heisig can attest to it
2021-01-09T08:55:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: ugh
2021-01-09T08:55:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I have to like (let ((tmp var)) (lambda () ...))?
2021-01-09T08:56:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I guess this makes sense
2021-01-09T08:56:44Z VincentVega left #lisp
2021-01-09T08:56:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: The loop SETQ one binding, rather than shadowing on each iteration
2021-01-09T08:56:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Mental model adjusted...
2021-01-09T08:57:36Z moon-child: if all you're doing is iterating over a single list, it might be easier to mapcar
2021-01-09T08:57:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm a bit surprised it took me this long to discover this
2021-01-09T08:57:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is a simplified sample
2021-01-09T08:59:52Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T09:00:10Z emys[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-09T09:00:17Z clar[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-09T09:00:17Z ckoz[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-09T09:00:17Z DanielCheng[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-09T09:00:17Z zstest3[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-09T09:06:07Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:06:07Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-09T09:06:07Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:06:18Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:08:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T09:09:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:14:15Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-09T09:16:26Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-09T09:17:16Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T09:17:56Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-09T09:23:01Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T09:25:37Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:27:49Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T09:28:45Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:28:50Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:33:13Z drNobody joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:36:43Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:39:34Z drNobody quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T09:39:37Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T09:39:54Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:39:59Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:39:59Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-09T09:39:59Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:42:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T09:43:40Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:46:51Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T09:48:27Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:54:36Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T09:55:02Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-09T09:58:05Z patrixl quit (Read error: No route to host)
2021-01-09T09:58:46Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:04:53Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T10:05:05Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:10:54Z Anonymous__ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:11:20Z xrash joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:18:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:18:11Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-09T10:18:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:21:46Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T10:28:24Z jurov_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:28:43Z clintm joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:31:10Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T10:34:40Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T10:41:16Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T10:43:27Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:43:37Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:51:58Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:52:15Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:53:38Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:55:40Z jurov joined #lisp
2021-01-09T10:57:51Z h4ck3r9696: How do I get started with threading in Common Lisp? I read the CL cookbook's article, but I find it very brief and hard to understand. For example, how do I write to *standard-output* from a thread without getting wierd behavior and duplicating text? I tried to use a lock every time I use format, but that didn't work.
2021-01-09T10:58:28Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T10:59:40Z jurov_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T11:03:12Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T11:04:17Z beach: You shouldn't get any duplicated text.
2021-01-09T11:04:58Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-09T11:05:10Z beach: And you don't need locks unless you need mutual exclusion for some resource.
2021-01-09T11:05:24Z phoe: a stream might be such a resource
2021-01-09T11:05:53Z phoe: AFAIR e.g. CCL streams are not threadsafe by default, two streams cannot write to a stream at the same time
2021-01-09T11:05:54Z beach: But we haven't been told it is (yet).
2021-01-09T11:06:07Z phoe: oh, yes; I'm extrapolating
2021-01-09T11:06:28Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-09T11:06:33Z h4ck3r9696: CL-USER> (hello-from-thread)
2021-01-09T11:06:33Z h4ck3r9696: Hello, world
2021-01-09T11:06:33Z h4ck3r9696: NIL
2021-01-09T11:06:37Z h4ck3r9696: CL-USER> (hello-from-thread)
2021-01-09T11:06:38Z h4ck3r9696: Hello, world
2021-01-09T11:06:42Z h4ck3r9696: Hello, world
2021-01-09T11:06:45Z h4ck3r9696: NIL
2021-01-09T11:06:48Z h4ck3r9696: I'm getting this
2021-01-09T11:06:51Z h4ck3r9696: randomly
2021-01-09T11:07:44Z beach: You would have to paste your code somewhere.  It is not clear what the constellation of threads is.
2021-01-09T11:08:06Z h4ck3r9696: It's just the tutorial from the CL cookbook
2021-01-09T11:08:31Z ck_: do you mean the website or the 'recipes' book?
2021-01-09T11:08:39Z ck_: maybe paste a link
2021-01-09T11:09:41Z h4ck3r9696: this is the code for hello-from-thread https://pastebin.com/3Xxgv2H6
2021-01-09T11:10:36Z ck_: and is this the tutorial you mean? https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/process.html (C-f "print a message onto the top level")
2021-01-09T11:11:04Z h4ck3r9696: yes, that's the one
2021-01-09T11:11:44Z phoe: hmmm
2021-01-09T11:11:45Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2233#2233
2021-01-09T11:11:51Z phoe: cannot reproduce... welcome to multithreading issues
2021-01-09T11:12:08Z beach: I can't reproduce either.
2021-01-09T11:12:09Z h4ck3r9696: I'm using SLY and SBCL
2021-01-09T11:12:26Z h4ck3r9696: this is what happends when I try to run it : https://pastebin.com/GpfdLfQ2
2021-01-09T11:12:29Z ck_: maybe you could compare your settings? I know phoe and beach turn the safety knobs all the way up, for example
2021-01-09T11:13:20Z Nilby: It's normal. Ya'll who run in slime don't see it.
2021-01-09T11:13:37Z h4ck3r9696: I think it's a sly problem, because it doesn't happend in the terminal
2021-01-09T11:13:38Z beach: Oh?
2021-01-09T11:14:09Z jurov joined #lisp
2021-01-09T11:14:10Z Nilby: When a thread flushes the buffer and there's output from the other thread in unflushed in there, it get's double output.
2021-01-09T11:14:18Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T11:14:39Z h4ck3r9696: You mean I should switch to slime?
2021-01-09T11:14:42Z phoe: !
2021-01-09T11:14:43Z phoe: no
2021-01-09T11:14:49Z phoe: add (finish-output s) after the FORMAT call
2021-01-09T11:14:53Z phoe: check if it still occurs
2021-01-09T11:15:16Z h4ck3r9696: yes
2021-01-09T11:15:27Z phoe: hm
2021-01-09T11:15:53Z phoe: Nilby: still sounds like a very weird thing if it occurs after (format s ...) (finish-output s)
2021-01-09T11:16:08Z Nilby: Even add finish-output exacerbates it sometimes.
2021-01-09T11:16:27Z phoe: I mean, this sounds bugworthy for me - the role of finish-output is meant to flush the stream
2021-01-09T11:16:32Z phoe: and if it doesn't, then it should
2021-01-09T11:16:37Z Nilby: It does.
2021-01-09T11:16:49Z phoe: then there should be no double output because the first line should have already been flushed
2021-01-09T11:17:01Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-09T11:17:07Z Nilby: It's just that there's output from multiple threads in there if you don't make multiple stram buffers somehow.
2021-01-09T11:17:14Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-09T11:17:46Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-09T11:19:20Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-09T11:19:54Z h4ck3r9696: Well, guess i'll have double output. It doesn't really matter anyway because i'll add a GUI soon
2021-01-09T11:19:56Z Nilby: I experience it all the time since I run stuff directly in a terminal. But it's not hard mitigate. Also, the normal flushing in sbcl &
2021-01-09T11:20:04Z phoe: in the terminal, yes
2021-01-09T11:20:12Z phoe: but why does slime get it right and sly doesn't?
2021-01-09T11:20:29Z phoe: in terminal it's normal when multiple threads write to a single stdout without locking
2021-01-09T11:20:46Z Nilby: Slime buffers output of multiple threads for you.
2021-01-09T11:21:06Z phoe: and sly ones don't?
2021-01-09T11:21:51Z Nilby: I don't know, but it probably does.
2021-01-09T11:22:42Z rogersm quit
2021-01-09T11:22:59Z Nilby: Also the stream flushing behaviour varies quite a bit between implementations.
2021-01-09T11:23:27Z phoe: hmmmmmmmm
2021-01-09T11:25:46Z fiddlerwoaroof thinks this is a good reason to use SLIME
2021-01-09T11:28:42Z Nilby: This gives pretty random results, and worse when you put a finish-output afger the print: (progn (bt:make-thread (lambda () (dotimes (i 50) (print i) (sleep .1)))) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (dotimes (i 50) (print i) (sleep .1)))))
2021-01-09T11:29:43Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-09T11:30:03Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-09T11:30:07Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T11:39:16Z phoe: yes, I can reproduce it
2021-01-09T11:39:46Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2234#2234
2021-01-09T11:44:46Z Nilby: One easy way to have slightly more consistent output is make a new stream per thread, e.g. https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2235#2235
2021-01-09T11:47:39Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T11:48:38Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-09T11:49:29Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T11:50:28Z Nilby: You can get really messed up if you're a kook like me doing a tui with many threads writing & inputting.
2021-01-09T11:50:37Z phoe: yes
2021-01-09T11:51:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T11:56:18Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-09T11:57:17Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-09T11:58:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nilby: I contributed https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/contrib/slime-buffer-streams.el that might help this sort of problem
2021-01-09T11:58:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, you create a stream and emacs creates a corresponding buffer
2021-01-09T11:59:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think it's been ported to sly, but it's a bit cleaner for some things (DRKMA:*HEADER-OUTPUT-STREAM*, for example) than just using *standard-output* for everything
2021-01-09T12:01:03Z paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-09T12:05:42Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T12:09:03Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T12:09:42Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-09T12:10:30Z Nilby: fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks. That seems quite useful, especially for network stuff. Interactive terminal stuff must take another path though.
2021-01-09T12:11:46Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T12:11:46Z kaftejiman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T12:18:22Z miracle_fox joined #lisp
2021-01-09T12:33:40Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T12:41:56Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-09T13:01:02Z BuboBubo joined #lisp
2021-01-09T13:05:38Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-09T13:09:25Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-09T13:14:28Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-09T13:18:14Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T13:21:25Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T13:26:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-09T13:32:48Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T13:36:34Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-09T13:37:01Z BuboBubo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T13:39:35Z SlashLife joined #lisp
2021-01-09T13:44:43Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T13:46:43Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T13:48:15Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T13:48:20Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-09T13:50:14Z liberliver1 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T13:51:01Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T13:52:33Z liberliver1 is now known as liberliver
2021-01-09T13:59:41Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T14:02:19Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-09T14:02:50Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-09T14:03:08Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-09T14:06:23Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T14:10:01Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T14:16:13Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-09T14:16:48Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-09T14:16:50Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-09T14:17:07Z imode quit (Quit: Lovely night, isn't it? Fresh air, lovely people..)
2021-01-09T14:17:08Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T14:23:17Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-09T14:25:30Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T14:40:00Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-09T14:44:37Z miracle_fox quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T14:45:56Z dmiles joined #lisp
2021-01-09T14:46:36Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T14:48:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-09T14:48:59Z dmiles joined #lisp
2021-01-09T14:50:25Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T14:52:07Z dmiles joined #lisp
2021-01-09T14:53:28Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-09T14:56:18Z dmiles quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-09T14:57:14Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T14:57:14Z andreyorst_ is now known as andreyorst
2021-01-09T15:05:51Z v3ga: hmm, after Common LISP: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation should I read Let over Lambda or Land of Lisp?
2021-01-09T15:06:42Z beach: I think you should read PCL.
2021-01-09T15:06:56Z beach: minion: Please tell v3ga about PCL.
2021-01-09T15:06:56Z minion: v3ga: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2021-01-09T15:07:39Z v3ga: beach: Ok, I have that too on my shelf. Darn. so PCL > Land of Lisp.
2021-01-09T15:07:54Z beach: I am not sure of either of the LoL books.
2021-01-09T15:08:14Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-09T15:08:55Z beach: I would do PCL, then PAIP.
2021-01-09T15:09:41Z v3ga: beach: lol, ok. I have that as well. I actually came across a copy for a good price and grabbed it but I haven't touched it yet.
2021-01-09T15:10:14Z beach: Others here may have a different opinion, of course.
2021-01-09T15:11:34Z Nilby: it depends on your reaction to the words "Grand Theft Wumpus"
2021-01-09T15:12:36Z v3ga: Nilby: say what? =P
2021-01-09T15:13:02Z v3ga: that must be land over lisp.  Silliness is fine as well.
2021-01-09T15:13:36Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-09T15:14:11Z Nilby: it's a thing in LoL
2021-01-09T15:15:15Z dmiles joined #lisp
2021-01-09T15:15:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T15:16:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T15:16:54Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-09T15:18:02Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-09T15:30:37Z dmiles quit
2021-01-09T15:36:08Z reb joined #lisp
2021-01-09T15:39:09Z jackhill quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T15:43:05Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-09T15:44:20Z andreyor1 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T15:46:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T15:47:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T15:47:37Z aorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T15:50:02Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-09T15:52:36Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-09T15:53:45Z lotuseater quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T15:53:48Z phoe: IMO Let over Lambda should be read after Graham's On Lisp
2021-01-09T15:54:34Z Anonymous__: https://paste.ofcode.org/jTLmSX3X9UcMu8FvBr94rB
2021-01-09T15:54:49Z phoe: Anonymous__: this seems like #scheme
2021-01-09T15:54:51Z Anonymous__: can someone check if i defined let and let* correctly in terms of lambda?
2021-01-09T15:54:58Z Anonymous__: In fact is scheme
2021-01-09T15:55:02Z phoe: #lisp is a place full of Common Lisp programmers
2021-01-09T15:55:11Z phoe: as it's dedicated to Common Lisp
2021-01-09T15:55:36Z Anonymous__: Understood, i will give a try on #scheme
2021-01-09T15:56:45Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-09T15:59:38Z dmiles joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:07:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T16:08:03Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:10:53Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-09T16:11:31Z miracle_fox joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:14:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T16:15:05Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:16:50Z reb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T16:17:03Z reb`` joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:18:52Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:20:28Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T16:20:32Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:23:56Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-09T16:24:07Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:25:50Z reb`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T16:26:04Z reb```` joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:29:43Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:35:26Z reb```` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T16:35:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T16:35:44Z reb`````` joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:35:47Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:41:41Z trocado quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T16:41:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T16:42:13Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:42:22Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:45:02Z reb`````` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T16:45:18Z reb`````` joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:49:50Z reb`````` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T16:50:07Z reb`````` joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:50:22Z BuboBubo joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:51:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T16:52:09Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:52:15Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:53:58Z andreyorst quit (Quit: andreyorst)
2021-01-09T16:53:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T16:54:29Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:54:38Z reb`````` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T16:54:46Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:54:53Z reb`````` joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:57:55Z thmprover joined #lisp
2021-01-09T16:59:26Z reb`````` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T16:59:41Z reb`````` joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:01:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T17:01:54Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:04:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T17:04:28Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:06:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T17:07:17Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:11:13Z miracle_fox quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T17:11:51Z miracle_fox joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:13:00Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:17:06Z bacterio quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-09T17:17:06Z BuboBubo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T17:17:22Z akrl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T17:17:30Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:17:39Z BuboBubo joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:18:15Z bacterio joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:23:43Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-09T17:26:19Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:27:01Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T17:30:04Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:32:00Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:32:14Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:45:51Z BuboBubo quit
2021-01-09T17:49:09Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-09T17:54:44Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-09T18:04:26Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-09T18:05:06Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T18:09:17Z dmiles quit
2021-01-09T18:09:47Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-09T18:10:28Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-09T18:11:07Z Danishman joined #lisp
2021-01-09T18:11:53Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T18:12:29Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-09T18:14:35Z curiouscain quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-01-09T18:15:03Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T18:17:01Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T18:23:07Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-09T18:25:03Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-09T18:29:16Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T18:39:43Z shka_: good evening
2021-01-09T18:41:18Z dmiles joined #lisp
2021-01-09T18:45:14Z charles`: Hello
2021-01-09T18:47:33Z jurov_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T18:50:38Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T18:51:19Z travv0: Hello
2021-01-09T18:55:25Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-09T18:57:08Z frodef: hi
2021-01-09T18:57:58Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:00:30Z charles`: Has anyone used usocket and needed to detect a close? is a timer the best solution?
2021-01-09T19:00:44Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-09T19:00:44Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-09T19:02:36Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T19:03:10Z bacterio quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T19:04:44Z bacterio joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:06:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T19:09:03Z nydel joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:15:34Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T19:15:53Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T19:17:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T19:18:05Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:24:29Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-09T19:25:50Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-09T19:28:20Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T19:29:36Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T19:30:52Z jurov joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:30:52Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T19:31:40Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:32:40Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-09T19:33:18Z jurov- joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:34:16Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T19:37:06Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T19:40:12Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:40:58Z johnjay: solideogloria[m]: i used rainbow parens but idt they are necessary. I wrote my own extension that improves paren matching in emacs by going one level deeper
2021-01-09T19:41:24Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T19:41:40Z johnjay: so it just highlights the current paren and all the children in the sexp. works pretty well
2021-01-09T19:42:22Z johnjay: you should use the indentation in emacs to get the most information first imo
2021-01-09T19:43:12Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:44:16Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:44:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone know of a RFC822 email parser?
2021-01-09T19:50:12Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T19:50:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T19:50:20Z mgxm quit (Quit: ....)
2021-01-09T19:53:50Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:53:55Z mgxm joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:55:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-09T19:57:02Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:00:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I found one on Cliki, but its email address parser was really slow
2021-01-09T20:00:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: It uses one giant cl-ppcre regex to parse email addresses, probably a good test case for performance improvements to CL-PPCRE :)
2021-01-09T20:09:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T20:10:40Z ppbitb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T20:10:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T20:11:14Z ppbitb joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:11:24Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:11:58Z msk joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:12:03Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T20:12:23Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T20:12:33Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:13:03Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:13:53Z msk_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-09T20:15:15Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:15:16Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-09T20:15:37Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:15:43Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T20:17:54Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T20:18:11Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:19:43Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:20:01Z ppbitb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T20:20:31Z ppbitb joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:25:36Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-09T20:26:36Z johnjay: is there a common lisp email server you mean?
2021-01-09T20:27:54Z johnjay: oh its the email format
2021-01-09T20:30:03Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:36:02Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:37:34Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:37:38Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-09T20:37:45Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T20:39:19Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:40:46Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T20:40:55Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:41:42Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:45:54Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-09T20:47:53Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:48:36Z andreyor1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-09T20:48:52Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-09T20:57:37Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-09T20:58:22Z mgxm quit (Quit: ....)
2021-01-09T21:00:22Z Iolo joined #lisp
2021-01-09T21:02:09Z mgxm joined #lisp
2021-01-09T21:05:20Z ppbitb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T21:05:51Z ppbitb joined #lisp
2021-01-09T21:10:25Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-09T21:10:34Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T21:10:41Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-09T21:10:56Z Danishman quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/)
2021-01-09T21:12:03Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-09T21:15:54Z jurov joined #lisp
2021-01-09T21:17:48Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-09T21:19:06Z jurov- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T21:19:10Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-09T21:25:32Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T21:27:04Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T21:27:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2021-01-09T21:29:10Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-09T21:29:41Z rogersm quit
2021-01-09T21:36:31Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T21:46:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just realized mel-base might have an ok one...
2021-01-09T21:47:10Z amirouche quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T21:47:36Z reb``````: OK, I'm curious.  Why do you want some way of validating or parsing email addresses?
2021-01-09T21:48:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: reb``````: well, I've been working on a little utility for turning an NNTP group into a folder full of emails
2021-01-09T21:49:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: And I wanted to add the ability to do some email -> HTML stuff
2021-01-09T21:50:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like that mailing list archive that just shut down its web interface...
2021-01-09T21:51:02Z reb``````: ... but why do you want to parse or validate email addresses?
2021-01-09T21:51:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want to parse the headers out of the email and do interesting things with them
2021-01-09T21:51:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: RFC822 is the email format
2021-01-09T21:51:53Z reb``````: Ah, you want to parse email headers.  That makes more sense.
2021-01-09T21:51:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: It includes a spec for email addresses
2021-01-09T21:53:03Z SAL9000 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-09T22:05:39Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-09T22:07:25Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-09T22:12:58Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-09T22:13:40Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/)
2021-01-09T22:13:58Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-09T22:21:08Z Posterdati joined #lisp
2021-01-09T22:21:28Z reb`````` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-09T22:22:59Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-09T22:26:34Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-09T22:29:43Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T22:30:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T22:32:23Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-09T22:36:58Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-09T22:53:23Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T22:57:03Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T22:57:49Z miracle_fox quit
2021-01-09T22:58:45Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-09T22:59:07Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-09T23:02:38Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-09T23:03:25Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: don't you mostly care about the comma?
2021-01-09T23:04:36Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-09T23:04:43Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-09T23:06:12Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-09T23:12:56Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-09T23:13:01Z jackhill joined #lisp
2021-01-09T23:16:23Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-09T23:17:44Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-09T23:19:38Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-09T23:19:40Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-09T23:29:06Z BuboBubo joined #lisp
2021-01-09T23:29:59Z BuboBubo quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-09T23:32:45Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-09T23:42:58Z neirac joined #lisp
2021-01-09T23:43:55Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-09T23:52:31Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-09T23:54:23Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T00:10:00Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T00:10:25Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-10T00:14:43Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T00:17:11Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T00:26:09Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T00:26:44Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-10T00:31:27Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-10T00:32:07Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-10T00:44:31Z tsrt^ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T01:13:16Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T01:16:40Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T01:18:16Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-10T01:19:56Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T01:21:53Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-10T01:24:07Z epony quit (Quit: reconfigure)
2021-01-10T01:25:17Z epony joined #lisp
2021-01-10T01:27:01Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-10T01:40:10Z kaftejiman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T01:49:20Z neirac left #lisp
2021-01-10T02:58:09Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T02:59:37Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T03:12:49Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T03:22:14Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-10T03:23:43Z stoneglass joined #lisp
2021-01-10T03:30:43Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-10T03:33:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T03:47:47Z Misha_B left #lisp
2021-01-10T03:49:24Z stoneglass quit (Quit: stoneglass)
2021-01-10T03:50:46Z slondr joined #lisp
2021-01-10T03:51:57Z slondr: Hey all, is there an easy-to-use package to play musical notes?
2021-01-10T03:52:12Z slondr: Like, I want to do something along the lines of (play 'C) and hear a C note from my computer
2021-01-10T04:01:02Z Xach: slondr: i wish i could suggest something, but it's not an area i know anything about when it comes to CL.
2021-01-10T04:01:13Z nullman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T04:01:21Z Xach: and those who might know may be asleep! but maybe a q on reddit or stackoverflow would get an answer eventually.
2021-01-10T04:01:52Z Xach thinks back to GWBASIC programs that could do this easily decades ago
2021-01-10T04:02:03Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T04:03:55Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-10T04:04:37Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-10T04:05:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-10T04:07:15Z slondr: Xach: ah, thanks for the insight at least
2021-01-10T04:07:29Z moon-child: slondr: nothing that I know of, but I bet you could build something pretty easily off of oss
2021-01-10T04:08:24Z Xach: moon-child: "easily"!!
2021-01-10T04:08:39Z moon-child: relatively
2021-01-10T04:08:53Z moon-child: sin waves are easy to construct.  A4 is (usually) 440Hz, and you scale by increments of 2^1/12
2021-01-10T04:09:10Z moon-child: s/increments/factors
2021-01-10T04:09:52Z beach: It is easier to use the MIDI interface for that.
2021-01-10T04:10:16Z moon-child: oss has a midi interface?
2021-01-10T04:10:20Z slondr: certainly seems a little more involved than just (play-note "C") etc
2021-01-10T04:10:30Z slondr: or "C4"
2021-01-10T04:10:40Z beach: I didn't know OSS was a requirement.
2021-01-10T04:11:39Z beach: slondr: I am sure there are systems that use the MIDI interface.  OpenMusic must be doing something like that.
2021-01-10T04:11:50Z moon-child: didn't mean to imply that it was; just thought that you were.  What midi interface were you referring to?
2021-01-10T04:12:17Z beach: /dev/midi
2021-01-10T04:12:50Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T04:13:10Z beach: Oh, maybe that's just input.
2021-01-10T04:13:24Z beach: In which case you need to use something like Timidity.
2021-01-10T04:13:39Z moon-child: I think that's for interacting with midi hardware devices; both input and output, but not a regular speaker
2021-01-10T04:13:45Z beach: Let me check what I did for Gsharp.  I know it was very simple.
2021-01-10T04:13:54Z slondr: beach: that seems *way* more involved than (play-note "C4")
2021-01-10T04:15:29Z beach: moon-child: You are right.  I wrote a MIDI file and started Timidity.
2021-01-10T04:15:36Z slondr: Although if there's nothing that does precisely what I'd like, it may be worth the extra effort
2021-01-10T04:15:58Z beach: slondr: It is one of those things that are easier to write than to specify.
2021-01-10T04:16:21Z beach: slondr: What's the volume?  How long does the note last?  What's the sound?
2021-01-10T04:17:03Z beach: slondr: If all you want is a sine wave, it's a 5-line program.
2021-01-10T04:18:26Z moon-child: slondr: a little googling suggests https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/clm.html
2021-01-10T04:19:06Z slondr: moon-child: yeah I found that in my searching, it's very mechanical though
2021-01-10T04:19:18Z edgar-rft: slondr: don't know how much it is maintained but looks reasonably simple -> https://www.cliki.net/sb-simple-audio
2021-01-10T04:19:24Z beach: slondr: mechanical?
2021-01-10T04:20:23Z edgar-rft: slondr: another alternative would be -> https://filonenko-mikhail.github.io/cl-portaudio/
2021-01-10T04:22:20Z slondr: edgar-rft: I'll try that one I guess
2021-01-10T04:22:30Z slondr: I'm disappointed that this isn't a solved problem really
2021-01-10T04:22:48Z beach: It is.
2021-01-10T04:23:01Z beach: OpenMusic is a solution.
2021-01-10T04:23:26Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T04:23:40Z edgar-rft: slondr: a complete CL realtime synth is -> http://incudine.sourceforge.net/
2021-01-10T04:24:20Z slondr: My use case is I have some other function that generates note sequences, eg (E G B A C), I just want to hear what that sequence sounds like, preferably without defining instruments or dealing with frequences and all that other stuff
2021-01-10T04:24:20Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T04:24:24Z slondr: Perhaps I am just lazy
2021-01-10T04:25:35Z beach: slondr: That's a very specific use case that you can't expect to have a pre-existing library for.
2021-01-10T04:25:54Z beach: slondr: Normally, you would want to know the instrument, the duration, the volume, etc.
2021-01-10T04:26:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: slondr: common music has something like that, I think
2021-01-10T04:26:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: But I think they switched from CL to scheme a while ago
2021-01-10T04:26:39Z slondr: beach: something like this exists for python I believe
2021-01-10T04:26:55Z beach: Good to know.
2021-01-10T04:53:03Z slondr: moon-child: sadly the download link for CLM 404s, and afaict it's not in quicklisp
2021-01-10T04:53:47Z moon-child: slondr: there are two links; the second works fine for me
2021-01-10T04:54:10Z slondr: oh! I hadn't noticed that
2021-01-10T04:54:12Z slondr: thanks moon-child
2021-01-10T04:58:36Z bmansurov joined #lisp
2021-01-10T04:59:00Z bmansurov is now known as Guest71249
2021-01-10T05:00:20Z Guest71249 is now known as bmansurov`
2021-01-10T05:02:01Z bmansurov` is now known as bmansurov_
2021-01-10T05:06:56Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T05:09:47Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-10T05:13:21Z thmprover quit (Quit: [Exit, pursued by bear])
2021-01-10T05:28:02Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-10T05:29:20Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-10T05:31:27Z payphone quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.7.1)
2021-01-10T05:32:34Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-10T05:35:09Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T05:35:10Z karlosz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T05:39:38Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-10T05:42:36Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-10T06:02:38Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-10T06:09:55Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T06:29:24Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-10T06:29:29Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-10T06:46:40Z gutter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T06:47:12Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-10T06:57:09Z stzsch|2 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T06:59:37Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T07:00:00Z stzsch quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T07:00:54Z Nikotiini joined #lisp
2021-01-10T07:02:21Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-10T07:09:33Z Aurora_v_kosmose is now known as aurora\uwu^test
2021-01-10T07:09:51Z aurora\uwu^test is now known as Aurora_v_kosmose
2021-01-10T07:11:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-10T07:18:14Z JohnnyL joined #lisp
2021-01-10T07:30:35Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-10T07:31:32Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-10T07:33:25Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-10T07:35:10Z slondr quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T07:38:12Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T07:48:13Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T07:49:19Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-10T07:51:35Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-10T07:54:41Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T07:56:58Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-10T07:58:21Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T08:01:37Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T08:03:44Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-10T08:05:05Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T08:07:42Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T08:08:43Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T08:19:49Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-10T08:31:25Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T08:38:20Z marusich quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T08:38:53Z marusich joined #lisp
2021-01-10T08:45:02Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T08:53:31Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-10T09:03:28Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp
2021-01-10T09:06:21Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T09:06:35Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T09:06:42Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T09:08:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T09:08:34Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-10T09:12:06Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-10T09:12:09Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T09:13:23Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T09:18:45Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-10T09:21:29Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-10T09:23:39Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-10T09:23:48Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-10T09:26:15Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T09:28:56Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-10T09:29:19Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T09:42:00Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-01-10T09:54:25Z slyrus joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:02:22Z datajerk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T10:08:04Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T10:09:59Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:12:35Z datajerk joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:16:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:18:13Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-10T10:18:33Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-10T10:25:19Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-10T10:27:10Z kapasian joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:28:18Z kapasian quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T10:31:29Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:31:35Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:32:22Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T10:36:43Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T10:36:54Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:37:38Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:38:03Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:50:22Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:53:50Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:54:51Z sugarwren joined #lisp
2021-01-10T10:58:54Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-10T11:03:40Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T11:07:00Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T11:07:39Z earl-ducaine quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-10T11:08:09Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-10T11:11:11Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-10T11:15:40Z imode quit (Quit: Sleep well when you get there.)
2021-01-10T11:16:32Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-10T11:17:04Z ecm: How do I make emacs indent common lisp code properly ?
2021-01-10T11:18:12Z beach: Use SLIME.
2021-01-10T11:18:39Z beach: Specifically, the slime-indentation module, but I believe it is on by default now.
2021-01-10T11:19:05Z ecm: I have a slime instance running, should I expect it to indent it normally ?
2021-01-10T11:19:18Z beach: I think so,yes.
2021-01-10T11:19:31Z beach: It is not perfect, but it's pretty good.
2021-01-10T11:19:36Z beach: Are you having difficulties?
2021-01-10T11:20:18Z ecm: It's not indenting sub-functions under a function like it would with let or some other built-in function
2021-01-10T11:20:26Z beach: Indentation is important mostly for the buffer in Lisp mode.
2021-01-10T11:20:48Z beach: What is a "sub-function"?
2021-01-10T11:21:19Z ecm: sorry, not just a sub-function, any expression
2021-01-10T11:21:37Z ecm: it indents it to the line below the function name
2021-01-10T11:21:58Z beach: Are you sure your buffer is in Lisp mode?
2021-01-10T11:22:11Z ecm: unlike let where it indents it 2 spaces after the start
2021-01-10T11:22:16Z beach: Did you visit a file named xxx.lisp?
2021-01-10T11:22:27Z ecm: yes I did
2021-01-10T11:22:36Z ecm: I can confirm it's in lisp-mode
2021-01-10T11:22:47Z ecm: and I have a slime instance running
2021-01-10T11:22:50Z beach: You need to paste the code.  Try the plaster.tymoon.eu
2021-01-10T11:23:01Z beach: s/the//
2021-01-10T11:26:13Z beach: ecm: Did you manage to paste your code there?
2021-01-10T11:27:17Z ecm: need a second
2021-01-10T11:27:58Z ecm: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2236#2236
2021-01-10T11:28:06Z ecm: this is what emacs indents the code as
2021-01-10T11:28:26Z beach: Erm, do you have TABs in there?
2021-01-10T11:28:27Z ck_: oh, there's tabs in it
2021-01-10T11:28:31Z beach: It looks funny.
2021-01-10T11:28:44Z beach: ecm: Please untabify it first.
2021-01-10T11:29:10Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T11:31:20Z ecm: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2236#2236
2021-01-10T11:31:21Z ecm: like so ?
2021-01-10T11:31:48Z beach: No, untabify means that you replace TABs by spaces.
2021-01-10T11:32:00Z ecm: oh got it
2021-01-10T11:32:05Z ck_: ecm: emacs has a command called 'untabify' -- M-x untabify
2021-01-10T11:32:24Z beach: Now you need to indent the buffer again, and then untabify it.
2021-01-10T11:32:55Z ck_: which will probably produce the exact same text as before though
2021-01-10T11:33:05Z ecm: ok done
2021-01-10T11:33:37Z ck_: like I predicted ;) your emacs is set to indent using tabs, that's the issue you need to address first
2021-01-10T11:33:38Z beach: So what's the complaint?
2021-01-10T11:34:06Z beach: Ah, yes, still TABs.
2021-01-10T11:34:25Z ecm: I expected crt:with-windows to be indented 2 spaces from crt:with-screen
2021-01-10T11:34:29Z beach: ecm: You need to do C-x h and then M-x untabify.
2021-01-10T11:34:54Z ck_: try M-x customize-variable indent-tabs-mode, set it to off -- that's my guess
2021-01-10T11:35:20Z ecm: beach: now ?
2021-01-10T11:35:21Z beach: Ah, that depends on the definition of the macro WITH-SCREEN.
2021-01-10T11:36:25Z beach: OK, let's see.  Have you loaded the system that defines crt:xxx?
2021-01-10T11:36:32Z ecm: yes
2021-01-10T11:36:33Z ecm: I have
2021-01-10T11:36:57Z beach: Hmm.
2021-01-10T11:37:03Z beach: Let me see if I can reproduce it.  What's the system?
2021-01-10T11:37:15Z ecm: croatoan, an ncurses library
2021-01-10T11:37:39Z ecm: I've loaded it in slime already
2021-01-10T11:37:41Z beach: But the fact that you did that on the first line doesn't mean it is loaded.
2021-01-10T11:37:49Z beach: OK, let me try it then...
2021-01-10T11:38:02Z ecm: I typed "(ql:quickload :croatoan)" inthe SLIME REPL
2021-01-10T11:38:11Z ecm: if that's what you mean
2021-01-10T11:38:18Z beach: yes, that's what I meant.
2021-01-10T11:38:38Z ecm: When I do a C-M-q it indents it like that
2021-01-10T11:38:43Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T11:40:57Z beach: Works for me.
2021-01-10T11:40:57Z beach: So, how exactly did you create this code?  How did you start emacs, SLIME, and how did you create the buffer?
2021-01-10T11:41:14Z beach` joined #lisp
2021-01-10T11:41:55Z ecm: I opened the file as normal, I've added a slime-company hook for the file, I then started slime, loaded croatoan, compiled the file and did a C-M-q expecting to indent properly
2021-01-10T11:41:58Z cpape` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-10T11:42:05Z lotuseater quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T11:42:07Z beach quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-10T11:42:11Z beach` is now known as beach
2021-01-10T11:42:20Z cpape joined #lisp
2021-01-10T11:44:15Z beach: Er, C-M-Q?
2021-01-10T11:44:31Z beach: C-x h then C-M=\
2021-01-10T11:44:59Z beach: Sorry, C-x h then C-M-\
2021-01-10T11:45:27Z ck_: what's wrong with cmq? "C-M-q (translated from <escape> C-q) runs the command indent-sexp"
2021-01-10T11:46:07Z beach: I guess if you do it on the first opening parenthesis, it works.
2021-01-10T11:46:10Z ecm quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-10T11:46:18Z beach: But only for one expression.
2021-01-10T11:46:27Z ck_: I thought that was what this was about, my mistake if not.
2021-01-10T11:47:02Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-10T11:47:08Z beach: I may be wrong of course.
2021-01-10T11:47:14Z ecm: I restarted emacs just in-case
2021-01-10T11:47:42Z beach: ecm: Did you do C-M-q when the cursor was before (defun?
2021-01-10T11:47:54Z ecm: I did it both ways
2021-01-10T11:48:01Z ecm: inside (defun and on the (
2021-01-10T11:48:23Z beach: What about C-x h and then C-M-\
2021-01-10T11:48:27Z beach: Does that work?
2021-01-10T11:48:52Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-10T11:48:55Z ecm: ok it just worked once I restarted
2021-01-10T11:49:08Z ecm: thanks
2021-01-10T11:49:16Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T11:49:42Z ecm: beach: both work now
2021-01-10T11:49:48Z beach: Hmm.  Disconcerting!  OK, good luck.
2021-01-10T11:52:01Z ck_: did you change indent-tabs-mode in the meantime?
2021-01-10T11:52:16Z ecm: no, I did not
2021-01-10T11:52:31Z ecm: am I not supposed to be using tabs for indentation ?
2021-01-10T11:53:16Z ck_: I think it is the consensus to use spaces today
2021-01-10T11:55:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T11:57:51Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-10T11:59:07Z beach: Yeah, everything looks better that way.
2021-01-10T11:59:27Z beach: Git diffs, paste sites, etc.
2021-01-10T12:11:03Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-10T12:16:46Z rjcks joined #lisp
2021-01-10T12:18:48Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-10T12:37:58Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-10T12:40:25Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T12:42:33Z rjcks quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-10T12:55:47Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-10T12:57:57Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-10T12:59:43Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-10T13:03:54Z SpaceIgo` joined #lisp
2021-01-10T13:05:11Z SpaceIgo` left #lisp
2021-01-10T13:07:20Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-10T13:09:29Z SAL9000 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T13:28:40Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T13:40:09Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-10T13:42:14Z Robdgreat left #lisp
2021-01-10T13:43:32Z frgo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T13:43:53Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-10T13:44:37Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T13:46:01Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T13:50:08Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T13:50:52Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-10T13:55:33Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T14:07:02Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-10T14:14:05Z puchacz joined #lisp
2021-01-10T14:16:12Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-10T14:21:17Z spoeplau joined #lisp
2021-01-10T14:23:52Z puchacz: hi, to play with ecl (I am interested in android), I need to sudo apt get ecl first, to get any version, then compile the newest one and follow some tutorials?
2021-01-10T14:24:14Z puchacz: the manual says ecl should be compiled with ecl
2021-01-10T14:26:40Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-10T14:29:07Z spoeplau: I'm trying to do (defctype foo :pointer) with several types '(foo bar baz), and I'm looking for a way to do something like (dolist (name '(foo bar baz)) (defctype name :pointer)). It doesn't quite work like this because "name" isn't evaluated, and the best I've been able to come up with so far is to define my own macro and then call it just once. Is there a better way?
2021-01-10T14:29:23Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-10T14:30:58Z karlosz_ quit (Quit: karlosz_)
2021-01-10T14:34:03Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T14:34:51Z _death: the macro is a way.. but if it's just that simple form it's overkill in my opinion
2021-01-10T14:35:02Z xlei quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T14:35:36Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T14:37:28Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T14:37:38Z spoeplau: _death: I have some more complex cases too, that one was just to illustrate what I'm trying to do
2021-01-10T14:37:48Z ralt: spoeplau: defctype is a macro I assume
2021-01-10T14:38:18Z ralt: You can macroexpand it to see if something else could be done
2021-01-10T14:39:17Z spoeplau: ralt: yep, it's from cffi. I'll have a look...
2021-01-10T14:39:25Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-10T14:39:51Z _death: spoeplau: you can define a META macro, something like (defmacro meta (form) (let ((generate (gensym))) `(macrolet ((,generate () ,form)) (,generate))))
2021-01-10T14:40:31Z _death: then (meta `(progn ,@(mapcar (lambda (name) `(defctype ,name :pointer)) '(foo bar baz))))
2021-01-10T14:42:34Z Bike: huh. that's a new one.
2021-01-10T14:42:48Z _death: some years ago discussion here resulted in a METALIST operator as well, https://github.com/death/gnusdumps/blob/master/driver/main.lisp#L121
2021-01-10T14:42:51Z spoeplau: oh, interesting, thanks
2021-01-10T14:43:09Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-10T14:43:09Z _death: Bike: I think I first saw in a Kent Pitman post
2021-01-10T14:45:10Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-10T14:47:02Z edgar-rft saw a Kent Pitman ghost
2021-01-10T14:47:30Z _death: with METALIST it would be (metalist (name) "Define a foreign pointer type alias for NAME." `(defctype ,name :pointer) ((foo) (bar) (baz)))
2021-01-10T14:47:52Z ralt: _death: I didn't realize you were the author of the dbus CL library
2021-01-10T14:47:57Z ralt: small world
2021-01-10T14:48:46Z _death: ralt: ;)
2021-01-10T14:48:55Z ralt: I've used that library in anger :P
2021-01-10T14:52:02Z _death: ralt: I remember you had some pull requests.. nice to hear that it worked for you, I wrote it for a thing that became irrelevant t me a year or two later.. the publish part is still broken design
2021-01-10T15:00:57Z xlei joined #lisp
2021-01-10T15:02:35Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-10T15:04:14Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-10T15:08:30Z puchacz quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-10T15:08:30Z pfdietz quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-10T15:08:30Z Bahman quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-10T15:08:30Z jeosol quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-10T15:10:26Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-10T15:11:37Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T15:13:36Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-10T15:15:46Z lansiir quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-10T15:16:21Z lansiir joined #lisp
2021-01-10T15:16:37Z sugarwren quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T15:17:43Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T15:22:05Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-10T15:28:13Z spoeplau quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T15:37:25Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T15:40:01Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-10T15:42:56Z roelj joined #lisp
2021-01-10T15:43:16Z birdwing quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T15:43:35Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-10T15:55:02Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-10T15:55:23Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T16:07:07Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-10T16:23:22Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-10T16:27:41Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-10T16:33:23Z sugarwren joined #lisp
2021-01-10T16:43:02Z flip214: Is there a library that can translate a SVG to an CL-PDF form, like a macro? translating a SVG to a PDF via eg. inkscape is relatively costly (in CPU terms), so directly writing a PDF would be much better
2021-01-10T16:44:29Z frodef: Is there any kind ov SVG renderer in CL? Seems to me a substantial undertaking.
2021-01-10T16:45:26Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T16:46:28Z flip214: frodef: I can read a PDF in inkscape, and save as SVG. SVG is text-only and very similar to PS and PDF, so the typical 99% should be an easy AST => AST translation.
2021-01-10T16:46:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T16:47:09Z flip214: If I can get the SVG => CL-PDF transformation, I can "easily" get a PDF and write "compatible" data from CL.
2021-01-10T16:47:29Z vaporatorius joined #lisp
2021-01-10T16:47:29Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host)
2021-01-10T16:47:29Z vaporatorius joined #lisp
2021-01-10T16:48:37Z frodef: flip214: To my knowledge, SVG is a substantial vector-graphics DOM, and "translating" to PDF I suspect is infeasible, beyond rendering to a raster image. Except perhaps a carefully selected subset of SVG.
2021-01-10T16:49:03Z andreyorst_ quit (Quit: andreyorst_)
2021-01-10T16:49:21Z frodef: (I could be wrong, but this is my understanding.)
2021-01-10T16:49:36Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T16:49:58Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-10T16:50:55Z frodef: If you have Inkscape save a PDF into SVG, do you get a raster image, or actual SVG?
2021-01-10T16:52:22Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T16:52:22Z cantstanya quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T16:52:22Z gxt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T16:52:22Z madage quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T16:52:23Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T16:52:26Z flip214: an actual svg.
2021-01-10T16:52:53Z flip214: and cl-pdf as well as svg have primitives like matrix-transform, text, choose font, etc. so a translation seems feasible.
2021-01-10T16:52:54Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-10T16:52:57Z flip214: "Hold my beer"
2021-01-10T16:54:06Z frodef: Well.. I won't hold your breath ;-)
2021-01-10T16:55:15Z frodef: would be cool though.
2021-01-10T16:57:10Z monkey` joined #lisp
2021-01-10T17:12:10Z j0nd0e quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T17:13:17Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-10T17:14:53Z sugarwren quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T17:17:36Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-10T17:19:39Z JohnnyL quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-10T17:20:20Z Xach: For simple SVGs, vecto could render to PNG.
2021-01-10T17:20:30Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-10T17:20:41Z Xach: It's not automatic, you would need to parse the paths in the SVG. But the drawing part after that is not too tricky.
2021-01-10T17:21:12Z Xach: And I'm defining "simple SVGs" as "ones the Vecto image model could support" to make it easy
2021-01-10T17:25:06Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-10T17:25:25Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T17:26:33Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T17:31:42Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-10T17:32:38Z wooden joined #lisp
2021-01-10T17:34:34Z guanohhh joined #lisp
2021-01-10T17:41:22Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-10T17:41:22Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-10T17:41:22Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-10T17:41:58Z v0|d joined #lisp
2021-01-10T17:47:15Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-10T17:51:10Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-10T17:51:23Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-10T17:52:05Z j0nd0e quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T17:55:41Z mfiano: is it specified anywhere which accessor will be invoked? (defclass foo () ((%a1 :reader a :initform 1) (%a2 :reader a :initform 2)))
2021-01-10T17:56:29Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-10T18:02:18Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-10T18:03:55Z Inline: the last one ?
2021-01-10T18:05:15Z _death: probably unspecified
2021-01-10T18:05:22Z Inline: welp
2021-01-10T18:05:28Z Inline: sequential ?
2021-01-10T18:05:40Z Inline: like it generating two defmethods one after the other ?
2021-01-10T18:05:57Z Inline: and the last one is the winning ?
2021-01-10T18:06:18Z mfiano: unspecified is what i assumed after searching. thanks
2021-01-10T18:06:40Z _death: Inline: the question is whether you're willing to bet that all implementations follow your logic
2021-01-10T18:06:48Z Inline: nope
2021-01-10T18:06:52Z Inline: i won't bet on that
2021-01-10T18:06:53Z Inline: lol
2021-01-10T18:09:09Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-10T18:11:00Z contrapunctus left #lisp
2021-01-10T18:12:56Z _death: my first thought was that if the spec had anything to say about it, it would be to signal an error
2021-01-10T18:17:13Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T18:19:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T18:20:40Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-10T18:25:38Z j0nd0e quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-10T18:30:40Z C-16 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T18:31:02Z C-16 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-10T18:31:05Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-10T18:36:07Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T18:37:22Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-10T18:37:43Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-10T18:48:45Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-10T18:48:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T18:49:09Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-10T18:49:25Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T18:55:11Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T18:55:32Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T18:55:35Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-10T18:58:48Z sugarwren joined #lisp
2021-01-10T18:59:27Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:00:16Z j0nd0e quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:00:30Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:01:18Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:01:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:01:36Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-10T19:01:36Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:01:49Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-10T19:02:43Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:05:16Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-10T19:06:19Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-10T19:17:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T19:19:56Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-10T19:21:25Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:21:40Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:22:21Z sugarwren quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:24:28Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:26:18Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:26:18Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:28:10Z monkey` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:28:41Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:29:18Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:29:44Z sugarwren joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:31:09Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:32:10Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:34:13Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:34:23Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:34:40Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:37:34Z monkey` joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:37:48Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-10T19:38:11Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:39:17Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:39:52Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:41:54Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:43:10Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-10T19:50:27Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:50:59Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T19:51:05Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-10T19:53:16Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-10T19:55:47Z SlashLife quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T19:55:56Z sugarwren quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-10T19:57:49Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T19:58:57Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:02:12Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:05:02Z gproto23 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:07:04Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:09:00Z SlashLife joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:12:42Z puchacz joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:14:31Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:14:33Z puchacz: jackdaniel, I started playing with ECL:) if I make it run my application, does it mean that it will be possible to create a library / executable from it?
2021-01-10T20:15:41Z puchacz: if I carefully track all (load... ) forms outside normal package management
2021-01-10T20:15:43Z shka_: puchacz: yes
2021-01-10T20:15:51Z SpaceIgo` joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:15:51Z puchacz: great, thanks :
2021-01-10T20:15:53Z puchacz: :)
2021-01-10T20:16:16Z shka_: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/System-building.html
2021-01-10T20:16:42Z shka_: it can make static lib, shared lib, executable
2021-01-10T20:17:23Z shka_: i never tried to build something that loads anything outside of asdf though
2021-01-10T20:17:23Z puchacz: shka_: yes, I read it today for the first time, and I started playing. but I know from experience that some files are loaded in a non-standard way, e.g. sly contribs. and I sinned as well by using bare (load ) in few places.
2021-01-10T20:18:10Z puchacz: so I will need to track it all, but when I do it, you are saying there are no obstacles to creating a binary
2021-01-10T20:18:15Z shka_: puchacz: well, if you build just asdf system, sly will be ignored
2021-01-10T20:18:15Z puchacz: so I am happy
2021-01-10T20:18:27Z shka_: IIRC
2021-01-10T20:18:32Z SpaceIgo` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T20:18:58Z shka_: it is slightly different from save-lisp-and-die in this regard
2021-01-10T20:19:18Z puchacz: yes, save-lisp-and-die just saves everything that is in memory, no matter how it was loaded.
2021-01-10T20:19:25Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T20:19:28Z shka_: exactly
2021-01-10T20:19:45Z monkey` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T20:19:57Z shka_: while ECL build-system, as far i can tell, works almost like a UNIX make
2021-01-10T20:20:29Z puchacz: but sly is fine too, I know how to force load all contribs. there are also programmatic calls to the compiler, I know for sure this is how web templating works (it creates functions that print out web pages)
2021-01-10T20:20:51Z shka_: at the runtime?
2021-01-10T20:20:55Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-10T20:20:59Z puchacz: yes, once
2021-01-10T20:21:02Z puchacz: so I am good too
2021-01-10T20:21:12Z shka_: hmmm
2021-01-10T20:21:22Z gproto23 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T20:21:27Z puchacz: I do it in sbcl before dumping the image, so I don't need to deploy my core with template files
2021-01-10T20:21:28Z shka_: calling compile at the runtime is almost as evil as eval
2021-01-10T20:21:30Z shka_: :-)
2021-01-10T20:21:55Z shka_: anyway, glad you have a solution at hand
2021-01-10T20:21:55Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:22:20Z puchacz: who says there is no eval somewhere? I did not add eval (for what I remember), but it may be there somewhere :)
2021-01-10T20:22:31Z shka_: heh
2021-01-10T20:22:38Z shka_: eval should work fine though
2021-01-10T20:22:49Z shka_: in fact, i think that compile should work as well
2021-01-10T20:23:04Z shka_: IIRC ECL compile does not compile to C, but to ad bytecode
2021-01-10T20:23:31Z puchacz: but you say as long as it runs with "development mode" startup (with quicklisp etc), I will be able to create the right sequence of binary files.
2021-01-10T20:24:34Z shka_: as long as you build systems defined with asdf i think it should be fine
2021-01-10T20:24:51Z jackdaniel: you may compile a "bundle" straiggt from asd definitions
2021-01-10T20:24:57Z shka_: right
2021-01-10T20:24:59Z shka_: exactly this
2021-01-10T20:25:05Z puchacz: 95% is, other 5% are manual calls to load and oddities like sly's contribs
2021-01-10T20:25:08Z jackdaniel: im on phone
2021-01-10T20:25:14Z puchacz: hello :)
2021-01-10T20:25:18Z jackdaniel: hi
2021-01-10T20:25:51Z jackdaniel: manual has a description of compilation
2021-01-10T20:26:01Z jackdaniel: with pictures! ;)
2021-01-10T20:26:52Z puchacz: yes, I read it today for the first time. I am impressed :) and is it true that if I can make ECL run my application, there exists the right sequence of binary files that be produced to make my application binary?
2021-01-10T20:26:53Z shka_: puchacz: i also think that load may also work
2021-01-10T20:27:31Z shka_: if paths are resolved correctly
2021-01-10T20:27:56Z jackdaniel: I dont understand the question
2021-01-10T20:28:18Z shka_: jackdaniel: puchacz has a system that calls LOAD at the runtime
2021-01-10T20:28:35Z shka_: IIRC in such case ECL will simply use bytecode compiler
2021-01-10T20:28:48Z puchacz: yes, but I can make it call all loads on startup, this is what I do for sbcl save-and-die
2021-01-10T20:28:54Z jackdaniel: that's not a problem, load does not compile
2021-01-10T20:28:59Z shka_: oh, ok
2021-01-10T20:29:02Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:29:02Z shka_: makes sense
2021-01-10T20:29:09Z shka_: so it should just wokr
2021-01-10T20:29:14Z puchacz: okay, great, thanks :)
2021-01-10T20:29:51Z jackdaniel: but as shka_  said, compiler is available at all times
2021-01-10T20:30:23Z puchacz: sure, then it should work, whatever hacks I discover in the code
2021-01-10T20:30:28Z jackdaniel: if gcc is absent, call (ext:install-bytecodes-compiler)
2021-01-10T20:30:50Z jackdaniel: should be a restart I suppose
2021-01-10T20:30:51Z shka_: yeah, performance can be hard to predict in such case though
2021-01-10T20:31:14Z shka_: but it may not even matter
2021-01-10T20:31:29Z shka_: anyway, have a good evening
2021-01-10T20:31:49Z puchacz: thanks, you too
2021-01-10T20:33:51Z jackdaniel: \o
2021-01-10T20:39:02Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T20:43:18Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T20:43:23Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-10T20:44:07Z sxmx joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:46:34Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:51:29Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-10T20:53:43Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T20:54:53Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-10T20:55:08Z ralt: oh hey
2021-01-10T20:55:23Z ralt: I never tried to make a static binary with ECL
2021-01-10T20:55:36Z ralt: I think
2021-01-10T20:56:01Z puchacz: I saw examples - you can even create a binary for arm/android
2021-01-10T21:03:15Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-10T21:09:08Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-10T21:10:53Z zxcvz quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-10T21:11:57Z _Ark_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-10T21:12:24Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-10T21:12:57Z ark joined #lisp
2021-01-10T21:17:10Z rogersm quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-10T21:19:04Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-10T21:19:16Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-10T21:20:01Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-10T21:21:31Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-10T21:24:03Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-10T21:27:53Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T21:29:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T21:32:12Z roelj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T21:36:07Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-10T21:41:58Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T21:43:10Z SpaceIgo` joined #lisp
2021-01-10T21:44:02Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-10T21:44:02Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-10T21:44:02Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-10T21:46:21Z SpaceIgo` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T21:46:45Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T21:46:54Z leo_song_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T21:54:49Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-10T21:57:31Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T22:12:52Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T22:13:26Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-10T22:16:45Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T22:16:46Z ppbitb quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-10T22:19:17Z Krystof joined #lisp
2021-01-10T22:19:44Z pp joined #lisp
2021-01-10T22:28:16Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-10T22:34:09Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-10T22:34:47Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-10T22:39:40Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T22:45:22Z guanohhh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-10T22:49:30Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-10T22:56:52Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-10T22:57:53Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-10T22:59:03Z stargazesparkle is now known as stargazesparkle[
2021-01-10T22:59:04Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp
2021-01-10T22:59:20Z stargazesparkle[ is now known as stargazesparkleM
2021-01-10T23:13:43Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T23:14:05Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T23:15:44Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-10T23:20:54Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-10T23:21:12Z gigetoo joined #lisp
2021-01-10T23:22:28Z rozenglass quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-10T23:22:35Z urek joined #lisp
2021-01-10T23:23:33Z urek left #lisp
2021-01-10T23:34:27Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-10T23:38:18Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-10T23:40:28Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-10T23:40:33Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-10T23:41:49Z stargazesparkle: I've been reading the lisp book someone sent me a few days ago and just wow
2021-01-10T23:42:17Z stargazesparkle: It's amazing how I managed to get myself as far as I did without considering what it was I was doing or why I was doing it
2021-01-10T23:42:17Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-10T23:43:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-10T23:45:06Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-10T23:49:22Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-10T23:50:58Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-10T23:56:42Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-10T23:57:12Z urek joined #lisp
2021-01-10T23:57:50Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-11T00:03:10Z charles`: What book?
2021-01-11T00:12:56Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T00:15:26Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T00:19:09Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-11T00:19:57Z stargazesparkle: Practical Common Lisp
2021-01-11T00:21:35Z matryoshka` joined #lisp
2021-01-11T00:21:35Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T00:24:51Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-11T00:25:20Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-11T00:26:59Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T00:27:40Z White_Flame: yep, PCL is quite highly regarded
2021-01-11T00:27:56Z matryoshka` quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-11T00:28:45Z charles`: I'm quite embarrassed to say that I have yet to read any lisp book.
2021-01-11T00:28:55Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-11T00:29:33Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga)
2021-01-11T00:29:49Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T00:31:03Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-11T00:31:25Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T00:32:55Z White_Flame: charles`: different strokes for different folks
2021-01-11T00:33:48Z White_Flame: no shame in htat
2021-01-11T00:38:41Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T00:39:24Z abhixec quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T00:41:12Z urek__ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T00:42:49Z urek quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T00:44:03Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T00:49:29Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-11T00:56:01Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T00:58:24Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-11T00:58:48Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-11T01:01:56Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T01:06:03Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T01:06:44Z charles`: Is there a way to ignore a package's nicknames in the local package without entering the debugger?
2021-01-11T01:06:45Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-11T01:11:13Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-11T01:16:55Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-11T01:19:23Z urek__ left #lisp
2021-01-11T01:20:55Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-11T01:22:09Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-11T01:27:23Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T01:32:51Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-11T01:34:18Z mrcom_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-11T01:34:40Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-11T01:38:12Z tmf quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-11T01:38:54Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-11T01:40:57Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T01:43:58Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-11T01:45:19Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-11T01:48:40Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T01:57:10Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T01:58:57Z tmf joined #lisp
2021-01-11T01:59:29Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-11T01:59:30Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:03:30Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:07:41Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:12:59Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:15:54Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T02:16:34Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:17:01Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T02:18:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:20:05Z loli joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:22:07Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-11T02:26:37Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-11T02:26:53Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-11T02:27:13Z dwts quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T02:27:31Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-11T02:28:10Z Tordek joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:28:25Z vert2 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:28:57Z dwts joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:36:13Z j0nd0e quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T02:38:29Z akrl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T02:42:19Z dmiles quit
2021-01-11T02:42:47Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:43:25Z dwts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T02:43:29Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:43:43Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T02:44:01Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T02:46:25Z [d]_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T02:49:05Z bacterio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T02:49:25Z akrl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T02:50:54Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:52:16Z bacterio joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:52:26Z dwts joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:52:51Z Tordek joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:52:56Z vert2 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T02:58:38Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:00:03Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:06:40Z akrl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T03:06:51Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:10:56Z bacterio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T03:13:28Z akrl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T03:16:13Z birdwing joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:17:01Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:17:44Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-11T03:20:15Z akrl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T03:20:23Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:24:04Z nydel joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:25:01Z bacterio joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:28:45Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T03:29:08Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:36:25Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:38:31Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-11T03:38:40Z akrl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-11T03:39:31Z birdwing quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T03:40:10Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-11T03:40:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T03:41:51Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:42:04Z john__ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:43:17Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:45:10Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:45:38Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-11T03:54:46Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T03:54:52Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-11T03:57:07Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:02:16Z pp is now known as ppbitb
2021-01-11T04:02:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-11T04:02:56Z ppbitb quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-11T04:03:00Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:03:10Z ppbitb joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:03:21Z akrl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T04:04:52Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-11T04:08:37Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T04:14:57Z nydel joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:15:02Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T04:16:40Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:20:37Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:20:51Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:21:24Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-11T04:21:24Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:23:48Z hineios joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:24:52Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T04:25:25Z akrl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T04:30:02Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T04:30:58Z ome joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:32:05Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:42:01Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T04:42:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T04:45:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-11T04:47:48Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:48:49Z pi___ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:48:49Z pi___ is now known as ariedro
2021-01-11T04:49:47Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T04:53:08Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-11T04:55:10Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-11T04:57:20Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-11T05:01:10Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-11T05:02:42Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-11T05:02:59Z mathrick quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-11T05:03:13Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-11T05:17:12Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-11T05:17:43Z john__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T05:20:19Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-11T05:27:05Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T05:27:55Z Anonymous__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T05:35:58Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T05:37:08Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-11T05:41:12Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T05:42:12Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-11T05:48:56Z akrl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T05:50:40Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-11T05:53:18Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-11T05:56:30Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-11T05:56:48Z davd33 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T05:56:55Z davd33 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-11T05:57:22Z davd33 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T05:57:36Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T06:05:03Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-11T06:08:27Z j0nd0e quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T06:13:48Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T06:24:14Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T06:32:09Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-11T06:32:38Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T06:33:07Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-11T06:36:39Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-11T06:37:20Z davd33 quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-11T06:38:08Z akrl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T06:38:17Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T06:40:48Z davd33 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T06:52:19Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-11T06:57:13Z j0nd0e quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T06:58:43Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-11T07:01:22Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-11T07:01:54Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie)
2021-01-11T07:02:28Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-11T07:09:39Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-11T07:10:00Z ome quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-11T07:13:55Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T07:15:12Z flip214: charles`: do you want in-package?
2021-01-11T07:15:17Z flip214: minion: in-package
2021-01-11T07:15:21Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``in-package''.
2021-01-11T07:15:34Z flip214: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_in_pkg.htm
2021-01-11T07:15:36Z flip214: charles`: ^^
2021-01-11T07:16:21Z flip214: you first define a package that :USEs some other packages, then go IN-PACKAGE and have the :USEd package symbols available without package prefix.
2021-01-11T07:16:24Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-11T07:19:51Z john__ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T07:20:51Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T07:21:46Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T07:24:51Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-11T07:27:00Z john__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T07:40:19Z beach: flip214: 1.  It is specbot, not minion who knows about the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2021-01-11T07:40:23Z beach: clhs in-package
2021-01-11T07:40:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_in_pkg.htm
2021-01-11T07:41:13Z beach: flip214: 2.  Perhaps you should warn about the risk of :USE-ing packages other than the CL package.
2021-01-11T07:44:43Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T07:48:01Z ck_: this particular use case read to me like using a package purely as a debugging environment, shortening the names you see.
2021-01-11T07:48:44Z beach: Oh, I didn't check the use case very well.  Sorry.
2021-01-11T07:54:25Z flip214: beach: you're right, 2 is important. And I don't think this is _for_ debugging, only that doing it wrong _causes_ debugging ;/
2021-01-11T07:54:28Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-11T07:55:04Z beach: Sounds plausible.
2021-01-11T07:55:11Z ck_: It's actually me who misread it -- in my mind it said "when entering the debugger" instead of "without entering the debugger"
2021-01-11T07:55:14Z ck_: sorry about that
2021-01-11T07:55:44Z beach: ck_: Maybe you are turning dyslexic, just like I am?
2021-01-11T07:57:46Z phoe: morning
2021-01-11T07:59:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T07:59:56Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T08:00:28Z ck_: beach: maybe. There are worse fates.
2021-01-11T08:01:59Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:02:21Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T08:02:21Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:03:00Z beach: Hey phoe.
2021-01-11T08:03:21Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:03:24Z beach: ck_: Yes, I agree.  It is possible to compensate a lot with spell checkers and abbrev processors.
2021-01-11T08:04:33Z beach: But things take longer.  I get warnings about undefined functions and variables, but I can't tell that I misspelled the names.
2021-01-11T08:05:33Z flip214: one of my favourite spelling tricks (reviewing books) is to get a count of used words.... everything written only once is suspect, and twice needs a clear look as well
2021-01-11T08:05:49Z beach: Clever.
2021-01-11T08:06:47Z ck_: yes, that's a nice move.  Also good for a histogram of non-alphanumeric characters, telling you whether some things are unbalanced
2021-01-11T08:06:53Z flip214: you think so? Thanks. I thought that's common.
2021-01-11T08:07:39Z flip214: but as I'm reviewing books and papers more or less regularly I might have automated a few bits more than other people, yeah.
2021-01-11T08:09:17Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:11:56Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:12:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:15:52Z frgo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T08:16:17Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:24:18Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-11T08:37:27Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-11T08:38:06Z frodef quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-11T08:40:36Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:42:59Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:44:16Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T08:44:24Z Stanley00 quit
2021-01-11T08:45:23Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:52:10Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:58:13Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:58:13Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-11T08:58:13Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:58:45Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T08:59:02Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-11T09:00:06Z psebcc[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-11T09:00:53Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-11T09:04:17Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-11T09:06:16Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T09:08:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T09:11:30Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-11T09:11:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-11T09:11:30Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-11T09:11:52Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T09:14:56Z ralt: I find :USE pretty useful when using package-inferred-systems, for other internal packages
2021-01-11T09:15:40Z ralt: for external systems I always use `(:import-from :other-package #:sym1 #:sym2)` though.
2021-01-11T09:16:58Z beach: Another reason not to use package-inferred systems.
2021-01-11T09:17:50Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-11T09:17:58Z ralt: I go even further: I use wild-package-inferred-systems :)
2021-01-11T09:18:54Z ralt: my .asd file has `:depends-on (("mysystem/*"))`
2021-01-11T09:22:49Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T09:23:37Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T09:27:22Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-11T09:28:38Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-11T09:29:07Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T09:30:02Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-11T09:31:49Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T09:46:58Z akrl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T09:54:34Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-11T09:57:10Z akrl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T09:59:59Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-11T10:02:45Z l1x joined #lisp
2021-01-11T10:06:09Z akrl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-11T10:07:29Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-11T10:11:36Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-11T10:12:34Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-11T10:21:43Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T10:21:47Z rixard_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T10:22:13Z luni quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T10:24:07Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-11T10:25:50Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-11T10:26:25Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T10:37:30Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T10:39:23Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T10:49:25Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T10:53:28Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T10:57:04Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-11T11:04:05Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T11:04:57Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-11T11:05:05Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T11:05:29Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-11T11:06:48Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-11T11:15:23Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T11:19:14Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-11T11:19:18Z ldbeth: godd evening
2021-01-11T11:25:03Z ldbeth: is there a alogrithm find n highest rating elements given a list and a rating function?
2021-01-11T11:26:18Z phoe: ldbeth: (subseq (sort (copy-seq ...) ...) 0 ...) ?
2021-01-11T11:27:06Z Codaraxis__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T11:27:26Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T11:28:22Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T11:30:50Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-11T11:31:12Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-11T11:33:16Z stzsch|2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T11:33:59Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-11T11:34:48Z jmercouris: anyone know of forum software written in Lisp?
2021-01-11T11:34:50Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T11:34:57Z jmercouris: something like Discourse? PHPBB?
2021-01-11T11:35:57Z ldbeth: phoe: seems there's no more clever way unless use something like a circular buffer.
2021-01-11T11:38:32Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T11:39:39Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-11T11:42:42Z phoe: well, you need to sort the elements of the circular buffer anyway, I don't think this can be done better than in nlogn
2021-01-11T11:43:12Z phoe: you could possibly adapt quicksort to not care about the insignificant parts and only fully sort the N greatest elements
2021-01-11T11:43:30Z stzsch|2 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T11:47:46Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-11T11:51:11Z stzsch|2 quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/)
2021-01-11T11:59:20Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-11T12:03:13Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-11T12:08:56Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T12:09:22Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-11T12:16:37Z imode quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-11T12:24:33Z _death: surprised that phoe didn't suggest a heap
2021-01-11T12:25:19Z phoe: _death: a heap will be nlogn anyway
2021-01-11T12:25:43Z phoe: could as well just sort the whole or a part of the thing, it'll be equivalent and not need a prioqueue
2021-01-11T12:25:45Z _death: phoe: not necessarily.. you don't insert all the items immediately
2021-01-11T12:25:54Z phoe: oh! hmmmmmm
2021-01-11T12:25:58Z phoe: immediately? what do you mean?
2021-01-11T12:26:30Z _death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_sorting#Heap-based_solution
2021-01-11T12:27:26Z jmercouris: might as well use a bubble sort if partial sorting is acceptable :-D
2021-01-11T12:27:44Z jmercouris: just in case that wasn't clear, it was a joke
2021-01-11T12:29:10Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T12:32:42Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T12:43:32Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T12:46:04Z ome joined #lisp
2021-01-11T12:46:59Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-11T12:50:06Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-11T12:57:07Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T13:02:52Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-11T13:09:24Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-11T13:09:36Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-11T13:15:17Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T13:18:18Z samuel-jimenez joined #lisp
2021-01-11T13:19:30Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-11T13:23:34Z dbotton quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-11T13:24:14Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-11T13:24:15Z Codaraxis__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T13:24:35Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T13:29:33Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-11T13:39:16Z Codaraxis__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T13:41:17Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T13:45:30Z davd331 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T13:45:37Z davd33 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T13:46:39Z davd331 left #lisp
2021-01-11T13:47:17Z Codaraxis__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T13:47:36Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T13:49:27Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T13:54:03Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-11T13:54:09Z Codaraxis__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T13:54:29Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T13:56:13Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:07:16Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:11:04Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T14:13:21Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:20:05Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:22:34Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:29:49Z mrchampion quit (Read error: No route to host)
2021-01-11T14:30:39Z pranav joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:32:04Z pranav left #lisp
2021-01-11T14:32:53Z pranavats joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:33:17Z mrchampion joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:38:38Z jackdaniel: Xach: would you find reasonable adding a system to ql that has only static files (namely ttf fonts + license)?
2021-01-11T14:40:24Z jackdaniel: context: I want to provide for McCLIM default fonts, but I don't want to clobber the repository
2021-01-11T14:41:39Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:42:25Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T14:43:57Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:46:39Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:49:31Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:52:04Z Codaraxis__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T14:54:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T14:55:51Z _death: wouldn't it have an .asd file, therefore lisp? :)
2021-01-11T14:57:40Z edgar-rft starts writing .asd files for all his ttf fonts right now...
2021-01-11T14:58:12Z _death: not for your music and video collections?
2021-01-11T14:58:32Z jackdaniel: it would! that's the point :)
2021-01-11T14:59:12Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-11T14:59:53Z edgar-rft: next task would be writing bug reports to the maintainers of ttf fonts for missing .asd files
2021-01-11T15:01:08Z _death: btw jackdaniel I recently wrote some small patches to mcclim.. for some of them it's clear to me that more extensives changes are required if it's not half-arsed.. but maybe you'd like to check them out?
2021-01-11T15:01:26Z jackdaniel: _death: sure
2021-01-11T15:01:50Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T15:01:53Z jackdaniel: send a pull request with a header `draft: ' if they are not complete
2021-01-11T15:02:23Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T15:02:42Z _death: well, they are a bunch of changes that could likely be split to multiple pull requests
2021-01-11T15:02:52Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-11T15:03:24Z jackdaniel: that's fine too
2021-01-11T15:03:39Z jackdaniel: (but if they are like 5-line changes, I'd rather have them as separate commits in a single pr)
2021-01-11T15:04:03Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-11T15:04:45Z _death: ok, I'll change have a single PR.. also, it seems a text editor pane with drei lisp syntax is extremely slow for some reason, even for <20 lines of simple code?
2021-01-11T15:06:47Z _death: jackdaniel: pull request done
2021-01-11T15:06:50Z jackdaniel: thanks
2021-01-11T15:07:21Z jackdaniel: I'm currently busy because I'm rewriting the renderer for clx backend (to default to xrender and for double buffering)
2021-01-11T15:07:38Z jackdaniel: so I may not look at it immedietely
2021-01-11T15:07:41Z _death: sure, I'm just playing around
2021-01-11T15:10:12Z edgar-rft: Totally offtopic, but at a radio station here a guy from the local computer club does audio editing with sox and makefiles (no joke), why not using asdf for audio editing? If someone's seriously interested, I'm on #lispcafe, too.
2021-01-11T15:10:30Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T15:15:19Z Xach: jackdaniel: yes - but it would be nice if 1) it was not too large and 2) it did not change much (new versions with big changes could be new projects?)
2021-01-11T15:16:52Z jackdaniel: Xach: assuming i.e dejavu, it is 12MB, it probably wouldn't change at all (unless new version of said fonts is published)
2021-01-11T15:17:53Z ey[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T15:18:04Z Xach: jackdaniel: i think that is entirely fine and good
2021-01-11T15:18:14Z Xach: jackdaniel: i wanted to do something similar so i'm glad someone else is!
2021-01-11T15:18:24Z Xach: i wanted to have some guaranteed fonts visible for vecto toys
2021-01-11T15:19:26Z jackdaniel: great, thanks for the feedback. I'll let you know when I have the system (ditto, I need to finish something first)
2021-01-11T15:19:57Z Xach: jackdaniel: might be nice to have a way other than system-relative-pathname to find the files
2021-01-11T15:20:51Z jackdaniel: cl-dejavu:list-fonts cl-dejavu:font-pathname ;?
2021-01-11T15:21:18Z Xach: jackdaniel: i like that
2021-01-11T15:21:29Z jackdaniel: alright, I'll keep that in mind
2021-01-11T15:22:58Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-11T15:24:57Z ey[m]3 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T15:25:48Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T15:26:59Z _death: maybe a ql-fonts system with an interface and ql-fonts-dejavu package for that particular family
2021-01-11T15:28:11Z _death: the ql-fonts system could look for the fonts in the system, and install the particular package if necessary
2021-01-11T15:28:25Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T15:30:16Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T15:32:07Z l1x quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-11T15:33:36Z Xach: that sounds like a 2.0 version of something
2021-01-11T15:33:46Z Xach: i would rather see something simpler first, like jackdaniel describes
2021-01-11T15:34:21Z Xach: i mean your second idea, not the first - though i don't love the "ql-" prefix on things that aren't "truly" part of quicklisp
2021-01-11T15:36:02Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T15:37:15Z Lolicon[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T15:39:09Z _death: sure
2021-01-11T15:40:06Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T15:49:29Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-11T15:51:22Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T15:54:20Z fangyrn: so what are the problems with ecl, if I were to start investing time in it? what problems have you guys had?
2021-01-11T15:54:39Z jackdaniel: generic function dispatch is not-so-great™
2021-01-11T15:55:01Z samuel-jimenez quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T15:55:06Z jackdaniel: and compilation time is also lacking
2021-01-11T15:55:19Z jackdaniel: other than that works for me ,)
2021-01-11T15:56:14Z beach: jackdaniel: Do you have ideas for improving generic dispatch?
2021-01-11T15:56:25Z jackdaniel: yes, most of them are based on your paper
2021-01-11T15:56:37Z fangyrn: sorry to interrupt, but what paper?
2021-01-11T15:56:53Z beach: jackdaniel: So you would be willing to assign unique numbers to your classes?
2021-01-11T15:56:54Z jackdaniel: beach wrote a paper about generic function dispatch techniques
2021-01-11T15:57:06Z jackdaniel: beach: I already implemented that before the last release
2021-01-11T15:57:12Z beach: Nice!
2021-01-11T15:57:30Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T15:57:49Z beach: fangyrn: http://metamodular.com/SICL/generic-dispatch.pdf
2021-01-11T15:58:00Z jackdaniel: I'm more worried about compilation at run time, but I suppose that some data could be gathered and compilation could be batched when the user calls compile-foo
2021-01-11T15:58:22Z jackdaniel: I did not think this through yet
2021-01-11T15:58:40Z beach: Unrelated to generic-dispatch?
2021-01-11T15:59:09Z beach: Or, are you talking about creating discriminating function using the compiler?
2021-01-11T15:59:37Z jackdaniel: yes, about that
2021-01-11T15:59:51Z beach: I see.
2021-01-11T16:01:25Z lotuseater quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T16:03:19Z beach: fangyrn: Do you feel comfortable attacking a problem like generic dispatch?
2021-01-11T16:09:29Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:09:49Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T16:10:33Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-11T16:10:35Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:10:49Z jackdaniel: Xach: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1963
2021-01-11T16:11:43Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:13:25Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T16:15:06Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:15:31Z Xach: tusen tack
2021-01-11T16:15:32Z jeosol: Good morning everyone
2021-01-11T16:15:50Z beach: Hello jeosol.
2021-01-11T16:16:10Z jeosol: beach: thanks beach
2021-01-11T16:16:34Z jeosol: how are things coming with your project
2021-01-11T16:16:43Z jeosol: i need to log into #sicl more often now
2021-01-11T16:17:45Z beach: jeosol: Steady progress.  The latest idea is explained in this draft paper: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf
2021-01-11T16:18:00Z beach: jeosol: Remarks are welcome as usual.
2021-01-11T16:18:35Z kingcons` joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:18:40Z beach: jeosol: How about yourself?
2021-01-11T16:19:51Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:20:13Z refpga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:20:35Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-11T16:22:21Z jackdaniel: uh oh, a websocket library? https://github.com/charJe/portal
2021-01-11T16:23:15Z jackdaniel: ah, I've got excited for nothing, it is a server; I was hoping for a new client library
2021-01-11T16:23:25Z jackdaniel: still cool though
2021-01-11T16:23:45Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:24:38Z jeosol: beach: Thanks for the link of the paper- will read. My browser logged me out for some reason
2021-01-11T16:24:52Z beach: I noticed. :)
2021-01-11T16:25:19Z beach: I thought I said something inappropriate. :)
2021-01-11T16:26:23Z beach: jeosol: Executive summary: Common Lisp can have faster function-calls than C++. :)
2021-01-11T16:26:32Z jeosol: oh no, not all, oh not at all
2021-01-11T16:27:09Z beach: jeosol: I also said "How about yourself?"
2021-01-11T16:27:10Z jeosol: Thanks for the summary. That's something I could use since I do many optimizations runs with thousands of calls
2021-01-11T16:27:29Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-11T16:27:30Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T16:27:32Z jeosol: beach: I am doing well
2021-01-11T16:27:46Z jeosol: just saw that, had to got to the irc-logs to see if you message while I was out
2021-01-11T16:28:12Z jeosol: I probably should just use emacs, my chrome acts weird once in a while
2021-01-11T16:28:23Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:29:13Z beach: What project are you working on?
2021-01-11T16:30:07Z jeosol: I was actually thinking of scheduling a talk with phoe, once I clear current loads.
2021-01-11T16:30:35Z beach: You mean an online Lisp meeting thing?
2021-01-11T16:30:36Z jeosol: Basically, most of my application is in the optimization space (and some machine learning for function approximation).
2021-01-11T16:30:49Z jeosol: yeah, online lisp meeting, when I get some things cleared out.
2021-01-11T16:30:56Z beach: That sounds good.
2021-01-11T16:32:50Z jeosol: One of the application examples, is meta-optimization - optimizing and optimizer. This is the application I said does lots of calls. I am looking at improving choice of data structures, etc, to squeeze out performance. Though in other practical applications, I am limited by expensive call to a third-party application that can take several minutes
2021-01-11T16:32:51Z jeosol: per call.
2021-01-11T16:34:12Z beach: What kind of "optimization" are we talking about here?
2021-01-11T16:34:50Z jeosol: sorry that was vague: it's the stochastic kind, evoluationary algorithms, e.g,. genetic algorithms, and the swarm algorithms, e.g., particle swarm optimization
2021-01-11T16:35:02Z beach: Ah, OK.
2021-01-11T16:35:51Z jeosol: They are not very efficient hence the need to combine with some statistical function approximators to save function calls
2021-01-11T16:36:20Z beach: I see.
2021-01-11T16:38:08Z jeosol: Perhaps I could also do an ELS paper. I tried to do one last year and travel but covid hit and disrupted plans
2021-01-11T16:39:38Z beach: Sure.  But you don't get to travel this time either.
2021-01-11T16:39:55Z jeosol: I think that's fine. I'd like to contribute a paper
2021-01-11T16:40:04Z beach: Please do!
2021-01-11T16:41:30Z jeosol: beach: also regarding your linked paper, off the top of my head, faster calls than C++ have significant implications - for one, having faster numeric type applications. Every time I have to deal with python version issues when I reach for one of the numeric libraries
2021-01-11T16:42:20Z jeosol: beach: I worked on a draft last year, I'd finish and submit. I just got the code I was working on to a great place and it's more stable, thanks to hints from you and the other guys here
2021-01-11T16:42:37Z beach: I see.  I do specifically mention full-word floats and full-word integers.
2021-01-11T16:42:57Z beach: Oh, so that will be no effort at all. :)
2021-01-11T16:42:59Z jeosol: I'd go through it in detail tonight
2021-01-11T16:43:34Z jeosol: beach: what do you mean by "no effort at all."
2021-01-11T16:44:10Z beach: If the paper is already written, you just need to submit it.  That's not fair! :)
2021-01-11T16:45:53Z jeosol: Haha, I guess by draft, I overstated things a bit; it's not completed. I have seen papers with code snippets so I was thinking may be I needed to include a few (albeit simplified versions)
2021-01-11T16:46:43Z beach: You have a few months as I recall.
2021-01-11T16:46:47Z jeosol: I'd check the deadline and work to complete it. At least the code runs stable and I can run it in docker from base container
2021-01-11T16:47:23Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:48:11Z housel quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-11T16:48:22Z housel joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:50:32Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:53:08Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:55:08Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-11T16:55:39Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:58:18Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T16:58:58Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-11T16:58:59Z andreyorst_ is now known as andreyorst
2021-01-11T17:00:33Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:05:37Z Bahman joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:06:36Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T17:08:55Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T17:15:48Z GreaseMonkey quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T17:16:02Z greaser|q joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:18:13Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T17:19:01Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:21:58Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:22:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T17:24:40Z phantomics_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T17:28:05Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T17:30:05Z vegansbane6 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T17:31:04Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-11T17:31:24Z andreyor1 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:33:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T17:34:16Z aorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T17:35:16Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:35:30Z zulu-inuoe joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:37:03Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:37:16Z andreyor1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T17:37:20Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:42:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T17:46:10Z opFez joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:47:04Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T17:48:19Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:51:24Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:53:35Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:54:10Z puchacz joined #lisp
2021-01-11T17:54:58Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-11T17:56:18Z puchacz: hello, ECL is mostly up and running, but I was getting a strange crash before: "Internal error: Detected write access to the environment while interrupts were disabled. Usually this is caused by a missing call to ecl_enable_interrupts." - it looked as if it was related to an ironclad function being unsuccessfully injected into a hunchentoot thread
2021-01-11T17:56:18Z puchacz: - I got debugger with it in Emacs few times.
2021-01-11T17:56:33Z puchacz: does it look familiar to anybody please?
2021-01-11T17:59:04Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T18:01:10Z puchacz: got this error in emacs again, it is trying to inject (make-prng :os) from ironclad, and the error is "Cannot interrupt the inactive process #<process hunchentoot-worker-127.0.0.1:48494 0x55760597b480>"
2021-01-11T18:01:56Z puchacz: this form is automatically added to bt:*default-special-bindings* in ironclad, but I don't know what exactly is going on
2021-01-11T18:04:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:08:09Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:08:34Z ome quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-11T18:09:01Z jackdaniel: it looks as if you are trying to do something in a thread that is not started (i.e already ended)
2021-01-11T18:11:52Z puchacz: jackdaniel - if it was me doing it, it would be easy :)
2021-01-11T18:12:12Z puchacz: trying to recompile now with (pushnew '(*prng* . (make-prng :os)) bt:*default-special-bindings* :test #'equal) commented out
2021-01-11T18:12:46Z puchacz: I can imagine it is some sort of ironclad improved random seed generator, but I don't understand why it is trying to interrupt a thread
2021-01-11T18:12:47Z jackdaniel: what ecl version do you use?
2021-01-11T18:12:59Z jackdaniel: after the last release there were a few fixes for interrupts
2021-01-11T18:13:10Z puchacz: "20.4.24-UNKNOWN"
2021-01-11T18:13:24Z puchacz: I downloaded from your site, not git
2021-01-11T18:14:00Z jackdaniel: then you may try building git version to see if it works
2021-01-11T18:14:30Z puchacz: ok, will do - thanks :)
2021-01-11T18:14:49Z jackdaniel: sure, if it still fails, please try to narrow the test case and submit an issue
2021-01-11T18:15:08Z puchacz: ok:)
2021-01-11T18:19:22Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-11T18:22:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T18:23:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:23:39Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:27:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T18:28:54Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:29:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T18:30:14Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:39:45Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:42:51Z puchacz: is it possible to globally restrict compiler policy? e.g. sbcl has (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) that overrides all local declaims, proclaims etc.
2021-01-11T18:43:05Z puchacz: (in ECL I mean)
2021-01-11T18:43:48Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:46:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T18:46:51Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:49:14Z jackdaniel: ecl doesn't have such feature yet
2021-01-11T18:49:15Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T18:49:22Z opFez quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-11T18:49:29Z puchacz: ok
2021-01-11T18:51:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T18:52:02Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:52:15Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T18:52:27Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:53:06Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:53:38Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-11T18:56:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T18:57:32Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:00:32Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:00:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T19:00:43Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:01:51Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T19:01:51Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T19:02:37Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:02:37Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T19:03:21Z jurov_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:03:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T19:03:22Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-11T19:04:02Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:06:23Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T19:06:54Z varjagg joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:06:56Z jurov quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-11T19:07:06Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:08:28Z varjagg quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T19:08:28Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T19:08:52Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:16:11Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T19:21:13Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T19:23:29Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:23:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T19:24:12Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:37:32Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-11T19:39:59Z aorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-11T19:40:17Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:40:22Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-11T19:43:25Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T19:45:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T19:46:32Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:46:52Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T19:47:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:48:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T19:49:20Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:51:40Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:51:45Z erjag joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:55:44Z also_uplime quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-11T19:55:58Z also_uplime joined #lisp
2021-01-11T19:58:11Z erjag quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T19:59:12Z varjagg joined #lisp
2021-01-11T20:00:22Z varjagg quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T20:02:21Z secretmyth joined #lisp
2021-01-11T20:07:23Z waleee-cl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T20:07:47Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-11T20:07:47Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T20:08:07Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T20:10:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T20:10:47Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-11T20:11:32Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-11T20:11:54Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-11T20:29:33Z varjagg joined #lisp
2021-01-11T20:34:30Z varjagg quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T20:37:14Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T20:41:23Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-11T20:41:48Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-11T20:47:54Z aartaka_d is now known as aartaka
2021-01-11T20:49:57Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T20:59:08Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-11T21:02:56Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T21:12:54Z tsrt^ quit
2021-01-11T21:14:02Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-11T21:17:10Z mgsk_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.0 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-11T21:17:20Z mgsk_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T21:21:22Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-11T21:22:57Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-11T21:25:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T21:30:31Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-11T21:31:29Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-11T21:41:06Z orivej quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-11T21:42:16Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-11T21:44:45Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-11T21:51:26Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-11T22:07:15Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-11T22:07:32Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T22:15:49Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T22:20:44Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-11T22:23:49Z puchacz: jackdaniel - sorry, I did not pinpoint it, but I realised that ironclad has nothing to do with the issue - I just saw the binding at the bottom stack frame of a thread, because bordeaux-threads was binding these specials as requested by ironclad. nothing to do with interrupting.
2021-01-11T22:26:16Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-11T22:28:14Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T22:35:26Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-11T22:39:11Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-11T22:41:31Z joga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T22:42:35Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T22:43:26Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-11T22:44:05Z leo_song joined #lisp
2021-01-11T22:44:48Z joga quit (Changing host)
2021-01-11T22:44:48Z joga joined #lisp
2021-01-11T22:45:37Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T22:48:50Z stoneglass joined #lisp
2021-01-11T22:49:14Z puchacz: but I think the original problem with interrupting non started thread is gone
2021-01-11T22:52:35Z jackdaniel: with a version from git?
2021-01-11T22:52:48Z jackdaniel: or you have fixed something?
2021-01-11T22:52:55Z jackdaniel: puchacz: ^
2021-01-11T22:54:35Z puchacz: with a version from git, I think I never saw this "Cannot interrupt inactive" anymore
2021-01-11T22:54:44Z puchacz: well, I am certain
2021-01-11T22:55:44Z jackdaniel: cool, sounds like a progress :) good night \o
2021-01-11T22:56:00Z puchacz: thanks, and good night :)
2021-01-11T23:08:01Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T23:08:55Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-11T23:10:49Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T23:11:36Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-11T23:12:26Z puchacz: I will play with it next weekend, there are (sparse!) application level incompatibilities, e.g. something deep inside babel crashes this in ECL (puri:parse-uri
2021-01-11T23:12:26Z puchacz: "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=ext.cite.styles%7Cext.uls.interlanguage%7Cext.visualEditor.desktopArticleTarget.noscript%7Cext.wikimediaBadges%7Cjquery.makeCollapsible.styles%7Cskins.vector.styles.legacy%7Cwikibase.client.init&only=styles&skin=vector")
2021-01-11T23:13:06Z puchacz: with #(124) is not of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (*)) --- related to lovely Lisp strings in babel :)
2021-01-11T23:16:47Z gigetoo joined #lisp
2021-01-11T23:22:15Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-11T23:25:34Z devon: Is there a cure for the impossibility of using SWANK::*AFTER-INIT-HOOK* in a straightforward way?
2021-01-11T23:25:34Z stoneglass quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T23:25:55Z stoneglass joined #lisp
2021-01-11T23:27:20Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp
2021-01-11T23:27:50Z kaftejiman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T23:29:37Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T23:32:40Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-11T23:33:49Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-11T23:35:42Z aeth: mfiano: Interesting. Apparently, the behavior you were complaining about a while back (iirc) is called sb-ext:readtable-normalization according to: https://old.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/kv9uqv/sbcl_unicode_support/
2021-01-11T23:36:47Z aeth: (setf (sb-ext:readtable-normalization *readtable*) nil) 'ℝ => ℝ
2021-01-11T23:36:56Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-11T23:38:02Z aeth: Maybe I can just use the host CL's readtable to readtable-case :invert in Airship Scheme, then.
2021-01-11T23:38:04Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-11T23:38:54Z Posterdati joined #lisp
2021-01-11T23:41:44Z aeth: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Symbol-Name-Normalization
2021-01-11T23:42:12Z aeth: oh, intern isn't even affected by it
2021-01-11T23:47:25Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-11T23:48:16Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-11T23:49:32Z loli quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-11T23:50:07Z loli joined #lisp
2021-01-11T23:54:14Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T00:05:01Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-12T00:08:34Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T00:11:58Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-12T00:13:23Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T00:23:42Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T00:24:14Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-12T00:32:31Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-12T00:34:19Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-12T00:34:19Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T00:34:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T00:45:03Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-12T00:49:05Z secretmyth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T00:50:07Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T00:56:26Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T00:57:47Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:00:10Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:00:13Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-12T01:01:04Z kingcons` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T01:09:22Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:11:41Z mrcom_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:11:47Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T01:14:52Z Oladon1 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:16:05Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T01:17:43Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:23:13Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:23:37Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T01:25:16Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T01:29:22Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-12T01:30:57Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:34:53Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T01:35:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:35:59Z PuercoPop joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:39:45Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-12T01:42:17Z kingcons` joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:42:32Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-01-12T01:42:49Z PuercoPop joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:43:10Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T01:46:10Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-12T01:47:16Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:47:26Z kingcons` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T01:49:16Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T01:51:21Z ey[m]3 is now known as ecm
2021-01-12T01:52:29Z chateau1942 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:52:59Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-12T01:54:22Z chateau1942 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-12T02:01:35Z abhixec_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T02:16:52Z kaftejiman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T02:18:18Z sm2n joined #lisp
2021-01-12T02:34:35Z kingcons` joined #lisp
2021-01-12T02:38:49Z stoneglass quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T02:38:54Z stonegla1 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T02:39:02Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-12T02:39:51Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T02:39:57Z kingcons` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-12T02:40:51Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-12T02:45:19Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T02:45:32Z todun joined #lisp
2021-01-12T02:50:25Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-12T02:52:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T02:53:44Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-12T02:55:31Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-12T02:57:02Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T02:57:28Z rozenglass quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-12T02:58:02Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-12T03:00:56Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:01:25Z kagevf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T03:02:30Z Oladon1 quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-12T03:05:31Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-12T03:08:46Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:14:06Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:20:15Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:20:53Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:28:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T03:31:28Z kingcons` joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:31:59Z kingcons` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T03:33:29Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-12T03:33:48Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:37:49Z charles`: flip214: by ignore package nickname I didn't mean "not have to type it", I meant "change the package definition to not have a nickname without changing the source code" and before or while ASDF is loading it.
2021-01-12T03:41:16Z nmg joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:41:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: charles`: you can dynamically modify all of these things
2021-01-12T03:42:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I _believe_ there's an ASDF extension somewhere that has some sort of file-local package nicknames
2021-01-12T03:42:09Z todun quit (Quit: todun)
2021-01-12T03:42:17Z charles`: Yes, I see RENAME-PACKAGE, but how to use it with asdf
2021-01-12T03:44:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's one https://github.com/fare/package-renaming
2021-01-12T03:46:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I don't know the context, so I'm not sure what the best thing to tell you is
2021-01-12T03:46:43Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:47:18Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-12T03:47:39Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:48:10Z chateau1942 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:48:37Z charles`: basically I have two packages that have names CL-BASE64 and BASE64; I need both because they are dependencies for different dependencies. CL-BASE64 has nickname BASE64. I just need to remove that.
2021-01-12T03:48:54Z chateau1942 left #lisp
2021-01-12T03:52:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder if ASDF has a mechanism for overriding dependencies
2021-01-12T03:52:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd be inclined to force one system in this case and then add a bit of code to emulate the other one to the BASE64 package
2021-01-12T03:52:56Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-12T03:53:15Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:53:58Z charles`: It isn't that simple. cl-base64 and base64 have differently named functions and cl-base64 has some functions that base64 doesn't have at all
2021-01-12T03:54:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, what I'm thinking is take the one with the more complicated to implement function, and then write your own code to implement the missing names
2021-01-12T03:55:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: (in-package :cl-base64) (defun base64->string (v) (parse v)) or whatever
2021-01-12T03:55:45Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-12T03:56:04Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T03:57:49Z charles`: so what you're suggesting is just don't use BASE64 package at all
2021-01-12T03:58:07Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:58:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2021-01-12T03:58:34Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-12T03:58:53Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T03:59:05Z matryoshka quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T03:59:23Z charles`: so track down the package that is using it as a dependency and tell them that they should use a different package
2021-01-12T03:59:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem is that their transitive dependencies, which means you'd have to figure out how to modify the dependency list
2021-01-12T03:59:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: system, not package
2021-01-12T03:59:57Z charles`: wouldn't I have to modify the package that uses base64 as a dependency to use cl-base64 functions
2021-01-12T04:00:08Z stonegla1 quit (Quit: stonegla1)
2021-01-12T04:00:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I dunno, package nicknames in libraries is bad idea
2021-01-12T04:00:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: charles`: I think you're mixing up "packages" and ASDF "systems"
2021-01-12T04:01:27Z charles`: I just mean a particular project or bundle of code
2021-01-12T04:01:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: That is a "system"
2021-01-12T04:02:02Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T04:02:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: A package is a namespace for symbols
2021-01-12T04:02:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Alternatively, you could modify your build process a bit
2021-01-12T04:03:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: load cl-base64 first, delete the package nickname using normal lisp code and then load your own system
2021-01-12T04:04:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm actually surprised this happens, I thought quicklisp requires that all systems be loadable in the same image
2021-01-12T04:04:24Z charles`: would that prevent my system from being loaded with ASDF?
2021-01-12T04:04:32Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-12T04:05:06Z charles`: they can load just fine. I just have to enter the debugger and manually ignore the BASE64 nickname
2021-01-12T04:05:36Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-12T04:05:54Z charles`: also perhaps the problematic nickname was added after already being added to quicklisp
2021-01-12T04:07:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: ASDF caches loaded systems
2021-01-12T04:07:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, you could still use ASDF to load it, it'll just be annoying
2021-01-12T04:08:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-12T04:08:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2237
2021-01-12T04:08:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach
2021-01-12T04:09:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is really why package nicknames should not be used in libraries, especially generic terms like "base64"
2021-01-12T04:10:36Z charles`: Good morning to beach
2021-01-12T04:12:06Z aeth: nicknames are fine if you have a unique nickname
2021-01-12T04:12:10Z aeth: so, not 'json'
2021-01-12T04:13:13Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T04:13:20Z aeth: "unique nickname" would be a bit of a contradiction because it doesn't scale to large communities, but reasonable nicknames could work
2021-01-12T04:13:58Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-12T04:15:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: I'd generally say, if you're writing an application, use global nicknames as much as you want
2021-01-12T04:16:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Where application is defined as "code not intended to be used as the dependency of another system"
2021-01-12T04:16:35Z aeth: An example of a reasonable nickname would be e.g. firefox for firefox-browser or something like htat, although that's an application.
2021-01-12T04:16:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess alexandria uses nicknames for versioning
2021-01-12T04:16:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: alexandria is a nickname for alexandria.1.dev or something
2021-01-12T04:17:19Z aeth: And the larger the framework/engine, the more likely it will behave like an "application" by your view, though, imo
2021-01-12T04:17:26Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T04:17:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's probably right
2021-01-12T04:17:48Z aeth: A big game engine or web framework probably can get away with a nickname
2021-01-12T04:17:58Z aeth: as long as it's not a ridiculously colliding one like "game"
2021-01-12T04:18:15Z aeth: or "web"
2021-01-12T04:19:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, I'd generally think those would be ok for an "end user"
2021-01-12T04:19:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because then they'd be guaranteed to be unique
2021-01-12T04:20:10Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-12T04:20:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: As long as your dependencies obey the contract of "not defining package nicknames"
2021-01-12T04:22:29Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I'd argue that a game engine would be wrong to use "game" and a web framework would be wrong to use "web"... however, they could in their documentation (or even in a project autogenerator) use that as the default for the *user* and *their* project, rather than for a library.
2021-01-12T04:23:08Z aeth: Although I guess you might want to run several websites or several game servers together in one image.
2021-01-12T04:23:32Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-12T04:23:56Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T04:36:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: What I mean by "end user" is "system that is never depended on by any other systems"
2021-01-12T04:36:36Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T04:36:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: For the other problem, you need a virtualization layer for CL
2021-01-12T04:37:47Z beach: First-class global environments might help.
2021-01-12T04:38:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's basically what I mean, as far as I understand it
2021-01-12T04:40:21Z aeth: absolutely
2021-01-12T04:40:26Z beach: There is not much to understand.  It's just a protocol with a bunch of generic functions that look like the standard ones, but with an additional environment parameter, so find-class, find-package, fdefinition, etc.
2021-01-12T04:40:49Z aeth: You'd ideally want first-class global environments if you want to run multiple server things of the same type (games, websites, app servers, etc.) on one image
2021-01-12T04:41:20Z aeth: Otherwise, there are too many global variables in the language to be sure that they won't interfere with each other in unexpected ways.
2021-01-12T04:42:32Z beach: Is this going to be a "Let's define an improved version of Common Lisp with fewer global variables" discussion?
2021-01-12T04:45:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I'd rather just define a way to "fork" the common lisp environment so that changes in one part can't directly affect changes in the other
2021-01-12T04:46:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: The only thing you'd need then is a protocol to pass data between the two sides
2021-01-12T04:46:46Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-12T04:47:32Z beach: I am planning a way to define incremental first-class global environments.
2021-01-12T04:47:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is, incidentally, what unix did
2021-01-12T04:48:08Z beach: Oh?
2021-01-12T04:48:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Docker containers are just namespaces for all the global resources: PIDs, ports, etc.
2021-01-12T04:48:34Z beach: I see.
2021-01-12T04:48:36Z aeth: beach: No. You don't need to remove the globals if you have different global environments so COMMON-LISP:*FOO* can refer to different things depending on the environment.
2021-01-12T04:48:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of them bundle an entire OS image inside the namespace, but there's no necessity for that
2021-01-12T04:48:56Z beach: aeth: Got it.
2021-01-12T04:49:08Z aeth: It already can refer to different things depending on the thread in most implementations... so my concern probably isn't as big of a problem as I think.
2021-01-12T04:49:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: A docker container can be a single executable, as long as it has no dependencies
2021-01-12T04:51:51Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-12T04:51:55Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-12T04:52:33Z charles`: fiddlerwoaroof: in your example you used SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR. isn't that specific to sbcl? is there a portable way?
2021-01-12T04:54:00Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-12T04:55:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think PACKAGE-ERROR, maybe?
2021-01-12T04:55:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: specbot package-error
2021-01-12T04:55:17Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T04:55:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs package-error
2021-01-12T04:55:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_pkg_er.htm
2021-01-12T04:55:47Z charles`: but wouldn't that catch all errors, not just ones related to nicknames
2021-01-12T04:56:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah
2021-01-12T04:58:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: It might be cleaner to have a system :cl-base64-patch that depends on cl-base64 and has a single file, that clears the nickname
2021-01-12T04:58:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then have your system depend on that one
2021-01-12T04:59:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or fork cl-base64 to local-projects and modify it (which is what I usually do)
2021-01-12T05:01:49Z charles`: ideally the maintainer would be responsive and remove his nickname
2021-01-12T05:03:56Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T05:04:40Z charles`: patch method doesn't work for me because I'm not using cl-base64 it is another dependency that is using it
2021-01-12T05:07:32Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T05:09:14Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T05:09:18Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-12T05:10:26Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-12T05:10:50Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T05:11:19Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T05:22:36Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-12T05:25:25Z thinkpad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T05:26:14Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T05:27:28Z epony joined #lisp
2021-01-12T05:27:29Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T05:29:21Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T05:31:03Z emaczen joined #lisp
2021-01-12T05:33:44Z Misha_B joined #lisp
2021-01-12T05:38:16Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T05:38:35Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T05:38:56Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T05:40:03Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-12T05:40:56Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-12T05:44:29Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T05:50:02Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T05:55:03Z charles`: I've found that the path of least resistance is to not use the library that depends on base64
2021-01-12T05:56:08Z charles`: I still think, as a community, something should be done about cl-base64, not only does it use a generic nickname, the git repository and maintainer are not accessible.
2021-01-12T06:12:47Z ppbitb quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-12T06:16:54Z ppbitb joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:17:16Z beach: charles`: The only way that will happen is if someone decides to work on it.  There is no community decision process that will make it happen in any other way.
2021-01-12T06:18:05Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:18:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: charles`: my suggestion would still work, you just have to put the system that depends on cl-base64 as the dependency of the system with the patch
2021-01-12T06:20:26Z aeth: charles`: or create a superior library with a compatible API and get the library that uses cl-base64 to switch
2021-01-12T06:21:31Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T06:25:35Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:26:34Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:27:35Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:28:33Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-12T06:29:38Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T06:30:23Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-12T06:31:36Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:31:36Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T06:33:34Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:34:35Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:35:54Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:38:28Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T06:39:34Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-12T06:39:55Z mbomba joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:40:56Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:44:32Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:47:31Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:49:40Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T06:50:33Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:51:28Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T06:54:31Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-01-12T06:55:46Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T06:59:48Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:00:38Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:00:38Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T07:01:03Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:04:13Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-12T07:04:20Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T07:05:06Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-12T07:08:29Z msk quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T07:08:36Z mbomba quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-12T07:10:00Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T07:10:10Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:10:28Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:20:13Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-12T07:20:56Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:23:54Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T07:24:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:28:23Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T07:29:27Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T07:32:06Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-12T07:32:24Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:39:15Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:40:04Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T07:40:41Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:46:48Z thinkpad quit (Read error: No route to host)
2021-01-12T07:47:58Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T07:48:17Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:48:45Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:50:06Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:50:31Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T07:55:53Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:06:40Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T08:08:57Z thinkpad quit (Quit: lawl)
2021-01-12T08:15:46Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:15:52Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-12T08:21:04Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:21:04Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-12T08:21:04Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:22:00Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T08:22:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:24:10Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T08:24:22Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T08:25:15Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:27:46Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:28:08Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:29:16Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T08:32:03Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:33:29Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:33:47Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:40:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:40:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-12T08:40:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:50:29Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:51:28Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T08:51:52Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:53:43Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-12T08:55:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-12T08:56:31Z shka_: how quiet
2021-01-12T09:03:27Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-12T09:04:15Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T09:05:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T09:11:10Z pankajsg joined #lisp
2021-01-12T09:12:36Z beach: OK, so here is some food for thought to break the silence...  How hard would it be to create a Linux/BSD/whatever "desktop" in Common Lisp?
2021-01-12T09:12:37Z beach: That would involve the window manager (we have two of those I think), a workspace manager, and a bunch of little gadgets like the volume control and stuff like that.  And could it be done incrementally, so that one could gradually replace existing gadgets?
2021-01-12T09:13:35Z beach: I am asking because I am tired of the existing "desktops" and I don't see myself improving them, given the language used.
2021-01-12T09:14:28Z beach: Mezzano must have some of that stuff already.  How portable is it?
2021-01-12T09:15:00Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-12T09:15:08Z frodef: Does Mezzano do X11?
2021-01-12T09:15:31Z beach: Good question.  I don't know.
2021-01-12T09:16:05Z beach: But either way, the display server would have to be isolated from the rest so that it could be easily replaced.
2021-01-12T09:16:19Z frodef: I just submitted a bug report for CL-WHO, is Edi Weiz active these days?
2021-01-12T09:17:37Z mfiano: No, infact he recommends people to use other libraries, as cl-who has a lot of bugs and he can't recommend using it (from an email discussion I had with him a few years ago), which is why his book, Common Lisp Recipes, recommends alternatives.
2021-01-12T09:19:29Z frodef: ok thanks. Is there consensus on what is a good alternative for simple html syntax?
2021-01-12T09:19:52Z mfiano: I personally recommend spinneret
2021-01-12T09:20:10Z mfiano: I don't know what others prefer. I don't think there is any consensus
2021-01-12T09:20:47Z moon-child: beach: stumpwm is written in cl
2021-01-12T09:21:18Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-12T09:22:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T09:23:43Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T09:23:43Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T09:23:43Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T09:25:00Z Cthulhux`: and it is rather good
2021-01-12T09:25:14Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-12T09:25:15Z Cthulhux`: or you could try exwm which is written in emacs lisp.
2021-01-12T09:30:43Z beach: moon-child: yes, hence "we have two of those".  The other one is called Eclipse.
2021-01-12T09:32:10Z frodef: is hunchentoot similarly abandoned?
2021-01-12T09:37:03Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-12T09:38:27Z ralt: I think it has a new maintainer
2021-01-12T09:38:36Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T09:38:53Z ralt: beach: stumpwm is clearly the one that has a community. writing new modules is not too hard.
2021-01-12T09:39:12Z j0nd0e quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T09:39:28Z ralt: see all the contrib modules there https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm-contrib/
2021-01-12T09:40:26Z beach: Thanks.  I don't see the volume control as a contributed module of the window manager, though.  Am I wrong?
2021-01-12T09:40:44Z ralt: there is none that I'm aware of for volume control, that is correct
2021-01-12T09:40:48Z beach: Also, is stumpwm still a tiling window manager?
2021-01-12T09:41:25Z beach: ralt: No I meant, is the window manager the right place for such a module?  I wouldn't think so.
2021-01-12T09:41:45Z ralt: ah
2021-01-12T09:41:47Z beach: But maybe stumpwm is more than a window manager.
2021-01-12T09:41:49Z mrcom_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T09:41:53Z ralt: I don't necessarily see stumpwm as a window manager
2021-01-12T09:42:04Z ralt: just "an X11 application that can manage windows, among others"
2021-01-12T09:42:04Z beach: I see.
2021-01-12T09:42:26Z ralt: it would be the "lisp machine", so to speak
2021-01-12T09:42:38Z beach: Yes, I see.
2021-01-12T09:44:38Z ralt: an example I like is pinentry support: https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm-contrib/tree/master/util/pinentry
2021-01-12T09:45:44Z ralt: it starts a server in a thread, and whenever gpg-agent or ssh-agent is trying to grab a key, it hits that server, which draws a new x11 window to ask for your password, and replies to gpg/ssh-agent
2021-01-12T09:47:43Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T09:47:44Z beach: I guess I should have a closer look at stumpwm.
2021-01-12T09:48:06Z frodef: beach: It does look very interesting, and pretty much what you originally suggested?
2021-01-12T09:48:35Z beach: That would be great, if so.
2021-01-12T09:49:09Z pranavats: beach: There's also EXWM which allows one to manage X windows using Emacs, in case you are interested in extending "desktop" using Elisp.
2021-01-12T09:49:43Z beach: Thanks, but no, not really.  I would like to see it in Common Lisp.
2021-01-12T09:50:01Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-12T09:52:35Z beach: So if everything is done with the keyboard, how do I get applications like the one that lets me slide little pictures of my monitors to determine their relative position?  I think I am saying that I am not sure that all mouse-based applications should be banned.
2021-01-12T10:00:31Z frodef: Spinner apparently won't do the syntax ((:sometag :someattr value) <content>), only (:sometag :someattr value <content>), which means source code formatting/indenting is not great at all...
2021-01-12T10:01:18Z frodef: ...any tips/experiences with this? Is there some slime integration etc?
2021-01-12T10:01:35Z frodef: s/spinner/spinneret/
2021-01-12T10:02:42Z igemnace quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-12T10:06:49Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-12T10:07:03Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-12T10:07:41Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-12T10:08:07Z nmg left #lisp
2021-01-12T10:16:21Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-12T10:16:35Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-12T10:17:08Z larme quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
2021-01-12T10:19:01Z larme joined #lisp
2021-01-12T10:27:12Z VincentVega: Hi, all! Is there a way define a setf which would work like this https://pastebin.com/bB8kHwSu ? I was thinking of defining a slot named approximate-x but that seems hackish since I don't really need an extra slot, just the setf capability.
2021-01-12T10:28:19Z phoe: VincentVega: new-value goes first
2021-01-12T10:28:34Z phoe: it'll work afterwards
2021-01-12T10:28:38Z VincentVega: oh me
2021-01-12T10:28:50Z VincentVega: thanks, man
2021-01-12T10:29:15Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-12T10:31:47Z flip214: Is there an easier way than my own DEFCLASS* so that the accessors by default modify an object referenced by a special variable? Like with HUNCHENTOOT:HEADERS-IN* and similar.
2021-01-12T10:33:12Z beach: What makes them accessors if they don't modify the class instance?
2021-01-12T10:34:55Z shka_: beach: i was thinking about this myself
2021-01-12T10:35:05Z shka_: i mean, DE in lisp
2021-01-12T10:35:07Z flip214: they read and write _a_ class instance still, just a "default" instance if none is given
2021-01-12T10:35:33Z beach: shka_: Apparently, it exists.
2021-01-12T10:35:33Z fourier joined #lisp
2021-01-12T10:35:34Z flip214: ie. (defmethod slot-a (&optional (obj *default-obj*)) ...)
2021-01-12T10:35:48Z shka_: i wonder though, would it be possible to run every application in the same lisp process?
2021-01-12T10:35:55Z phoe: flip214: (defmethod (setf foo) (new-value &optional (*instance* *instance*)) ...)
2021-01-12T10:35:57Z phoe: some tricks like this
2021-01-12T10:35:59Z beach: flip214: That's not the signature of a slot accessor.
2021-01-12T10:36:12Z phoe: (ab)using the fact that method parameters can bind special variables
2021-01-12T10:36:17Z shka_: because if yes, CLIM presentation types would be quite amazing
2021-01-12T10:36:17Z beach: flip214: Just write a method as phoe suggests.
2021-01-12T10:37:06Z flip214: https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot/blob/d684a9002665ca91477e98a5c777ead202c14306/request.lisp#L399
2021-01-12T10:37:08Z beach: shka_: That would be desirable, if not mandatory.
2021-01-12T10:37:45Z shka_: Lisp Machine User Space On Linux
2021-01-12T10:37:54Z shka_: or rather
2021-01-12T10:37:55Z flip214: beach: phoe: I only showed the reader method, yeah.
2021-01-12T10:38:00Z shka_: Lisp Machine "User Space" On Linux
2021-01-12T10:39:29Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-12T10:59:22Z TMA quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-12T11:02:44Z devon: Any thoughts on finding what clobbers a CCL global variable?
2021-01-12T11:08:34Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-12T11:08:59Z imode quit (Quit: Someone's takin' the train to sleepytime junction.. Someone's so very tired he can barely function..)
2021-01-12T11:09:13Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T11:09:32Z flip214: devon: can you make it a symbol-macro that expands to a SETF clause that you can trace or just define to an (ERROR ...) clause?
2021-01-12T11:09:47Z flip214: or are there read requests mixed in as well?
2021-01-12T11:10:14Z flip214: perhaps get the address and let gdb set a write watchpoint?
2021-01-12T11:10:18Z devon: flip214: Tried that, not allowed to redefine a procaimed special.
2021-01-12T11:11:16Z devon: Maybe manually clear bit 4 in the symbol structure…
2021-01-12T11:14:24Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-12T11:16:55Z flip214: well, gdb or whatever else you have is still an option...
2021-01-12T11:18:33Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-12T11:18:34Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T11:19:46Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-12T11:20:01Z xanderle_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T11:20:53Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T11:21:53Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-12T11:22:09Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-12T11:22:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-12T11:22:09Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-12T11:22:44Z jackdaniel: shka_: something like this? https://files.mastodon.social/media_attachments/files/105/340/120/234/953/787/original/5754ea8397d70ba2.mp4
2021-01-12T11:23:18Z jackdaniel: n.b there is "clim window manager", it is called doors. I haven't used it myself though
2021-01-12T11:23:28Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/admich/Doors
2021-01-12T11:24:00Z jackdaniel: there is a warning, that it is still a sketch, but I saw a video and it seems to work
2021-01-12T11:29:54Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-12T11:32:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T11:42:06Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T11:42:35Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-12T11:42:37Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T11:46:55Z mrcom_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T11:49:43Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-12T11:55:45Z [d]_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T11:55:54Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-12T11:58:59Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: that has never been a goal, or possible, since the beginning.
2021-01-12T12:01:09Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-12T12:01:16Z wal joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:02:28Z wal left #lisp
2021-01-12T12:02:36Z frgo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:05:26Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T12:05:57Z [d]_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T12:06:09Z [d]_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:12:05Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-12T12:16:46Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:18:29Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-12T12:21:43Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:22:37Z ggole joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:24:28Z Stanley00 quit
2021-01-12T12:28:29Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-12T12:28:53Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:31:46Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-12T12:32:03Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:33:39Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T12:34:23Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-12T12:35:02Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-12T12:39:17Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-12T12:42:28Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:43:42Z niceplaces quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T12:44:33Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:45:19Z ralt: beach: https://stumpwm.github.io/git/stumpwm-git_1.html#Floating-Group-Basics
2021-01-12T12:45:46Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-12T12:46:32Z ralt: it's not banned, and drag&drop inside applications still works for sure
2021-01-12T12:47:43Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-12T12:51:18Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:54:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:54:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-12T12:54:22Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-12T12:57:45Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:02:37Z varjagg joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:06:58Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:11:41Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:12:05Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T13:12:06Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T13:14:17Z mbomba joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:15:23Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:18:09Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T13:19:06Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:19:32Z beach: ralt: Thanks!
2021-01-12T13:23:40Z totorowechat joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:24:08Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T13:24:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:25:17Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:27:13Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T13:29:22Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T13:31:36Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-12T13:31:57Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:33:21Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:33:28Z totorowechat left #lisp
2021-01-12T13:41:55Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:53:32Z cmatei joined #lisp
2021-01-12T13:54:49Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T13:56:10Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-12T13:56:39Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-12T14:02:29Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T14:08:44Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-12T14:09:35Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T14:09:36Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T14:11:29Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-12T14:12:03Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-12T14:13:26Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T14:15:15Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-12T14:19:25Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T14:21:12Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-12T14:24:37Z cmatei quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T14:26:30Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T14:26:56Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-12T14:40:32Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T14:40:58Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-12T14:42:56Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T14:51:07Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T14:57:45Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-12T14:58:02Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:01:03Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T15:01:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T15:03:42Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:03:42Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-12T15:03:42Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:16:13Z vhost- quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-12T15:16:54Z vhost- joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:17:27Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:18:01Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:18:02Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:19:25Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T15:26:33Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:32:18Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:37:50Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:38:06Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:41:29Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:51:58Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-12T15:54:04Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-12T15:55:38Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-12T15:58:52Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T16:00:42Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T16:03:45Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:05:25Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:08:07Z Misha_B left #lisp
2021-01-12T16:11:24Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:13:25Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T16:15:12Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:17:46Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-12T16:20:25Z yonkunas joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:21:24Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:21:44Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-12T16:22:20Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:23:19Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T16:32:01Z zmagii: Can I run Lisp code line for line in Emacs?
2021-01-12T16:32:23Z beach: zmagii: What do you mean by "line for line"?
2021-01-12T16:32:43Z pranavats: You can execute expressions individually in a REPL.
2021-01-12T16:32:44Z beach: You can have a REPL using SLIME and you can type an expression at a time.
2021-01-12T16:34:14Z shka_: line in the context of lisp does not mean much anyway
2021-01-12T16:34:30Z beach: Hence my question.
2021-01-12T16:35:24Z shka_: http://www.neil.dantam.name/extra/slime-refcard.pdf
2021-01-12T16:35:38Z shka_: take a look at the evaluation section
2021-01-12T16:35:44Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:36:41Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:37:50Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:40:13Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-12T16:40:56Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T16:41:02Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:41:12Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:42:35Z PuercoPop joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:43:03Z zmagii: beach: I have file.lisp opened in Emacs, it shows SLIME in the status bar. How can I run the code?
2021-01-12T16:43:48Z beach: Did you type M-x slime in Emacs before opening the file?
2021-01-12T16:44:45Z zmagii: beach: Oh, I see, this now opens SLIME in a terminal buffer.
2021-01-12T16:44:55Z beach: Sort of.
2021-01-12T16:45:07Z beach: It's the SLIME REPL, not a terminal.
2021-01-12T16:45:14Z beach: There, you can type expressions.
2021-01-12T16:45:21Z beach: And they will be evaluated.
2021-01-12T16:45:44Z zmagii: And C-c C-c can compile blocks, it seems?
2021-01-12T16:45:46Z beach: So you can do (load "file.lisp") and then evaluate calls to functions defined in the file.
2021-01-12T16:46:03Z beach: Yes you can do that.  It compiles a top-level form.
2021-01-12T16:46:24Z beach: A "block" is a term in Common Lisp, and that's not what it is compiling.
2021-01-12T16:46:54Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:47:14Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T16:47:22Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:48:21Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:48:25Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:50:21Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:51:38Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-12T16:52:25Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T16:52:37Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:55:04Z abhixec_ quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-12T16:57:20Z zmagii: OK, so a top-level form is compiled?
2021-01-12T16:59:03Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-12T16:59:36Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:00:41Z karlosz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:00:43Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T17:00:43Z karlosz_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T17:00:55Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:02:24Z dbotton: Is it valid in a let* to rebind same symbol multiple times, ie (let* ((a 5) (a 4))) ?/
2021-01-12T17:02:28Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T17:02:44Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:03:47Z pranavats: a will be bound to value 4 in let* body in the above example.
2021-01-12T17:03:48Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T17:04:29Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:04:42Z pranavats: The previous binding of a with value 5 would be shadowed.
2021-01-12T17:05:45Z dbotton: So they persist till end of let* but are shadowed
2021-01-12T17:06:09Z pranavats: Yes
2021-01-12T17:06:18Z dbotton: So if I create a CLOS object then rebind the variable it will persist till end of scope
2021-01-12T17:06:21Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T17:06:25Z dbotton: Ok, perfect
2021-01-12T17:06:34Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:06:54Z dbotton: Meaning no GC till then
2021-01-12T17:07:55Z pranavats: A let* is equivalent to nested lambdas with variable names as an argument and applied to their values.
2021-01-12T17:08:49Z dbotton: Perfect, much appreciated
2021-01-12T17:08:58Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:09:09Z pranavats: The above form can be written as ((lambda (a) ((lambda (a) ...) 4)) 5)
2021-01-12T17:09:41Z deselby: OpusModus Convention, second day streaming now! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wqU8Ki622M
2021-01-12T17:10:20Z pranavats: dbotton: Where ... represents the body. So yes, a would still be bound to 5 in the outer lambda.
2021-01-12T17:10:46Z mbomba quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-12T17:12:11Z dbotton: Thank you for the illustration even more clear
2021-01-12T17:12:27Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:13:37Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-12T17:13:46Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:15:01Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:15:05Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:15:52Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T17:18:03Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:18:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T17:18:06Z nwoob joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:18:41Z nwoob: what package to use for syntax highlighting in *.lisp files?
2021-01-12T17:19:10Z mfiano: lisp-mode
2021-01-12T17:19:14Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:21:08Z beach: zmagii: Everything is typically compiled by default.
2021-01-12T17:22:07Z beach: dbotton: That's not clear.  If the first binding is never used, the compiler can remove it, and then the GC can reclaim the object.
2021-01-12T17:23:01Z beach: dbotton: Plus, the term "CLOS object" is meaningless.
2021-01-12T17:23:25Z nwoob: mfiano: my code looks like this https://ibb.co/f9hsMn6
2021-01-12T17:23:42Z nwoob: there must be better syntax highlighting than this
2021-01-12T17:24:11Z beach: What editor are you using?
2021-01-12T17:24:16Z nwoob: emacs
2021-01-12T17:24:17Z mfiano: Then load SLIME and revert-buffer
2021-01-12T17:25:02Z pranavats: dbotton: Then maybe it's preferable to just use nested let forms and make sure to use the shadowed binding in the outer let.
2021-01-12T17:25:20Z nwoob: beach: emacs
2021-01-12T17:25:21Z dbotton: Ok, so won't rely on that behavior beach. Beach what is better way to say that?
2021-01-12T17:25:35Z nwoob: mfiano: slime is loaded
2021-01-12T17:25:50Z mfiano: Then your theme needs some work
2021-01-12T17:26:31Z Alfr_: dbotton, why do you not want that thing to be collected in the first place? It's quite an unusual ask, if you ask me.
2021-01-12T17:26:45Z dbotton: Here is code snip - https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/09-tutorial.lisp
2021-01-12T17:27:11Z nwoob: mfiano: do you use theme?
2021-01-12T17:27:15Z dbotton: To not have tons of symbols in a let describing a GUI form
2021-01-12T17:28:41Z pranavats: dbotton: (let ((a 5)) a (let ((a 4)) ...))
2021-01-12T17:33:12Z Alfr_: dbotton, your (create-form-element f1 :submit :value "OK") might get collected, like beach said.
2021-01-12T17:33:48Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:35:36Z Bahman quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-12T17:35:46Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T17:35:47Z dbotton: It is ok in this case if collected
2021-01-12T17:37:52Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:38:05Z dbotton: The actual Lisp side after creating the elements on the browser side are not needed. In fact unless I actually need to set a property or event or need request a property value the Lisp side no longer matters
2021-01-12T17:38:39Z nwoob: mfiano: I commented out loading of theme in .emacs and now without theme syntax highlighting loooks like this https://ibb.co/nsHt6SV
2021-01-12T17:38:51Z dbotton: But I'll document it all that in the tutorial before writing the next one.
2021-01-12T17:40:32Z Alfr_: dbotton, you may wish to have a look at LTK's with-widget macro. I think it deals with the same problem for using tcl/tk.
2021-01-12T17:41:09Z dbotton: Appreciated I'll take a look
2021-01-12T17:41:17Z gareppa joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:42:56Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:43:41Z beach: dbotton: Most people who say what you did mean "standard object"
2021-01-12T17:44:26Z dbotton: So I would say just object or should I say standard object?
2021-01-12T17:44:48Z a0 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:44:53Z beach: "object" means "any Lisp datum" as the Common Lisp HyperSpec explains.
2021-01-12T17:45:00Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:45:15Z beach: "standard object" is what you typically get when you instantiate a class defined using DEFCLASS.
2021-01-12T17:45:32Z beach: dbotton: So 234 is an object.
2021-01-12T17:45:42Z beach: But not a standard object.
2021-01-12T17:45:50Z beach: clhs standard-object
2021-01-12T17:45:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_std_ob.htm
2021-01-12T17:48:46Z dbotton: Thanks
2021-01-12T17:49:32Z shka_: eh, we should simply call standard objects or instances
2021-01-12T17:49:34Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T17:50:00Z nitrix quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T17:50:07Z dbotton: Ok, updated my code to reflect this all, thanks.
2021-01-12T17:53:05Z nwoob: beach: which editor do you use?
2021-01-12T17:53:29Z a0 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T17:54:20Z nitrix joined #lisp
2021-01-12T17:54:51Z shka_: nwoob: 99% sure it is emacs
2021-01-12T17:55:00Z nwoob: shka_: what about you
2021-01-12T17:55:04Z shka_: emacs
2021-01-12T17:55:10Z shka_: almost everyone use emacs here
2021-01-12T17:55:33Z charles`: emacs
2021-01-12T17:55:33Z nwoob: could you please show me image of CL code in your emacs
2021-01-12T17:55:42Z nwoob: I want to know how does it looks
2021-01-12T17:55:50Z shka_: uh, it looks normal?
2021-01-12T17:55:53Z solideogloria[m]: Emacs
2021-01-12T17:56:02Z nwoob: like the synta highlighting
2021-01-12T17:56:05Z nwoob: syntax
2021-01-12T17:56:10Z jackdaniel: at the beginning there is (cl:in-package …) I bet :-)
2021-01-12T17:56:23Z shka_: jackdaniel: you win
2021-01-12T17:56:45Z shka_: nwoob: i don't use syntax highlighting
2021-01-12T17:56:50Z nwoob: my emacs syntax highlighting looks like this https://ibb.co/f9hsMn6
2021-01-12T17:56:59Z nwoob: I thought there might be better
2021-01-12T17:57:04Z shka_: perhaps
2021-01-12T17:57:05Z nwoob: coming from VScode
2021-01-12T17:57:27Z shka_: i don't know, i don't like syntax highlighting in general
2021-01-12T17:57:55Z nwoob: ok
2021-01-12T17:57:56Z shka_: but thing with CL (or any other lisp, really) is that there is barely a syntax to highlight
2021-01-12T17:58:09Z shka_: so...
2021-01-12T17:58:13Z charles`: rainbow delimiters (not default faces) greatly enhance syntax highlighting for lisp
2021-01-12T17:58:33Z shka_: ok, i do use rainbow delimiters as well, they are cool
2021-01-12T17:58:41Z nwoob: I mean predefined functions must be highlighted
2021-01-12T17:59:02Z nwoob: so that by one look i can know that this is CL fucntion
2021-01-12T17:59:04Z charles`: I've said it on reddit but I also highlight ' , # @
2021-01-12T17:59:33Z shka_: nwoob: uhm, ok
2021-01-12T17:59:52Z nwoob: charles`: this one? https://github.com/Fanael/rainbow-delimiters
2021-01-12T18:00:11Z shka_: yes
2021-01-12T18:00:26Z shka_: i find those profoundly useful
2021-01-12T18:00:33Z charles`: the problem with highlighting builtin functions is the almost everything becomes highlighted. there is nothing to differentiate, builtin macros like loop, if, and let should be highlighted
2021-01-12T18:00:59Z shka_: yeah,
2021-01-12T18:01:29Z shka_: after years of programming i just accepted that I am getting information overload way quicker then i would like to admit
2021-01-12T18:02:01Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T18:02:56Z nwoob: this is my syntax highlighting of javascript in VScode https://ibb.co/BnrLtft
2021-01-12T18:03:10Z nwoob: I was thinking to get close to this in emacs for CL
2021-01-12T18:03:49Z shka_: oh, garmin
2021-01-12T18:04:01Z nwoob: :)
2021-01-12T18:04:19Z shka_: anyway, i really can't help you, sorry!
2021-01-12T18:04:45Z shka_: the only extravaganza i use is rainbow delimiters and prettify for lambda
2021-01-12T18:05:29Z nwoob: could you send me the link for prettify
2021-01-12T18:06:02Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T18:07:45Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T18:08:35Z shka_: it is build into emacs itself
2021-01-12T18:08:57Z eden joined #lisp
2021-01-12T18:09:38Z shka_: https://aliquote.org/post/enliven-your-emacs/
2021-01-12T18:09:48Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T18:10:00Z nwoob: thank you for your time and help
2021-01-12T18:10:03Z shka_: i mean, it is just eye candy
2021-01-12T18:10:22Z shka_: but saves few characters on the screen so i like it
2021-01-12T18:10:27Z nwoob: I understand
2021-01-12T18:10:45Z shka_: also, it is kind of silly that appeals to me :-)
2021-01-12T18:11:09Z nwoob: :D
2021-01-12T18:12:13Z nwoob: shka_: so if I want to look for documentation of a particular buitin function how do i do that inside emacs?
2021-01-12T18:12:52Z shka_: http://www.neil.dantam.name/extra/slime-refcard.pdf
2021-01-12T18:13:00Z shka_: here is the reference for you
2021-01-12T18:13:16Z nwoob: thank you so much
2021-01-12T18:13:23Z shka_: Documentation section, to be specific
2021-01-12T18:15:00Z nwoob: i am doing C-c C-f on defun in my *.lisp file and emacs says C-c C-f is undefined :(
2021-01-12T18:15:21Z shka_: hm, do you have slime installed and running?
2021-01-12T18:15:42Z shka_: also, you can just use inspector to see docstrings
2021-01-12T18:15:52Z shka_: which is also an option
2021-01-12T18:15:58Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T18:15:59Z nwoob: yes, slime is installed and repl is running in another buffer
2021-01-12T18:16:04Z shka_: interesting
2021-01-12T18:16:15Z shka_: and you have slime-mode on?
2021-01-12T18:16:37Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-12T18:16:44Z scymtym: SLIME has C-c C-d h for looking up symbols in the specification. more generally, C-c C-d KEY looks up different things in the specification
2021-01-12T18:16:45Z nwoob: yes i do
2021-01-12T18:17:09Z shka_: hey, mcclim got an icon!
2021-01-12T18:17:11Z shka_: nice!
2021-01-12T18:17:51Z shka_: ok, time to go offline
2021-01-12T18:17:52Z scymtym: shka_: McCLIM got *support for icons*. your are probably just seeing the default one
2021-01-12T18:18:12Z shka_: aaaaah
2021-01-12T18:18:14Z shka_: makes sense
2021-01-12T18:18:30Z shka_: this is good
2021-01-12T18:19:06Z shka_: now i want to draw icon for clouseau
2021-01-12T18:19:18Z scymtym: shka_: i already did. hang on
2021-01-12T18:19:36Z nwoob:  C-c C-d d works!
2021-01-12T18:19:42Z shka_: nwoob: awesome
2021-01-12T18:19:55Z nwoob: thanks shka_ and scymtym
2021-01-12T18:20:22Z shka_: nwoob: for the built in stuff, hyperspec is your friend
2021-01-12T18:20:22Z nwoob: i have so much emacs commands to remember
2021-01-12T18:20:44Z nwoob: yes, will do C-c C-d h for hyperspec
2021-01-12T18:20:46Z nwoob: its cool
2021-01-12T18:20:54Z nwoob: love it
2021-01-12T18:20:58Z shka_: i personally just use zeal
2021-01-12T18:21:12Z nwoob: what's zeal
2021-01-12T18:21:14Z shka_: i like to have all docs i may want in one place
2021-01-12T18:21:23Z scymtym: shka_: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/clouseau-logo.png
2021-01-12T18:21:25Z shka_: documentation browser
2021-01-12T18:21:28Z scymtym is not an artist
2021-01-12T18:21:44Z shka_: hmmm, fedora
2021-01-12T18:21:46Z shka_: ok
2021-01-12T18:22:02Z shka_: i like the idea
2021-01-12T18:22:25Z scymtym: shka_: based on https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/presentation-clouseau/slides.html#/slide-slide%3Anames
2021-01-12T18:22:42Z scymtym: "based on" = "traced over"
2021-01-12T18:22:55Z shka_: heh, i see
2021-01-12T18:26:58Z charles`: nwoob to get that level of syntax highlighting requires just a little regex
2021-01-12T18:28:00Z charles`: it seems that basically you want all functions to be colored, and all non function symbols to be colored a different color
2021-01-12T18:28:54Z nwoob: yes charles`
2021-01-12T18:29:06Z devon quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T18:29:48Z charles`: do you know about add-font-lock-keywords emacs function?
2021-01-12T18:30:20Z nwoob: no i don't have knowledge about elisp
2021-01-12T18:32:40Z charles`: I believe that is what you are going to need. You will need regexes to identifiy all macro forms where you can define variable, let, destructuring bind, multiple value bind, loop and select variable names, then a regex to select function names, maybe also in flet and labels
2021-01-12T18:33:34Z eliteuwmyp joined #lisp
2021-01-12T18:33:42Z nwoob: I will search on this function and try to write regex
2021-01-12T18:33:54Z nwoob: thanks for guiding
2021-01-12T18:33:57Z nwoob: :)
2021-01-12T18:35:04Z charles`: You can use M-x regex-builder to test the regex since emacs-lisp regex is not pcre
2021-01-12T18:35:27Z charles`: I might actually work on this since I'm slightly interested
2021-01-12T18:36:25Z eliteuwmyp quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T18:36:37Z charles`: and it will help to use groups to select the variables
2021-01-12T18:41:18Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-12T18:43:59Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-12T18:53:12Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T18:54:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T18:54:30Z frodef`` joined #lisp
2021-01-12T18:55:25Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T18:55:57Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T18:56:13Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T18:56:22Z gareppa joined #lisp
2021-01-12T18:56:41Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T18:57:35Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-12T18:57:53Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T18:58:01Z matryoshka` joined #lisp
2021-01-12T18:59:29Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T18:59:59Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T19:02:30Z frodef``` joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:02:34Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:02:37Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:02:41Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-12T19:03:43Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:03:48Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-12T19:03:49Z frodef`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:04:31Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T19:05:23Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:06:01Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:07:03Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:07:03Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:07:03Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:11:59Z eden joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:12:01Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:12:40Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:14:22Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-12T19:15:32Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T19:15:49Z aorst is now known as andreyorst_
2021-01-12T19:16:27Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:17:52Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:18:09Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:20:30Z l1x joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:21:29Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T19:21:38Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:24:37Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:25:08Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T19:25:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:26:26Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:29:39Z matryoshka` quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-12T19:29:57Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:31:07Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:31:46Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:35:37Z gutter quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:36:08Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T19:36:58Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6)
2021-01-12T19:40:12Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:41:37Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:45:22Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:50:21Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:51:27Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-12T19:53:04Z borodust quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T19:54:57Z nwoob left #lisp
2021-01-12T19:58:24Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T19:58:52Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T20:02:43Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-12T20:04:45Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-12T20:05:19Z secretmyth joined #lisp
2021-01-12T20:16:57Z elimik31 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T20:17:36Z elimik31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T20:23:15Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T20:23:39Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-12T20:30:31Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-12T20:31:09Z xificurC joined #lisp
2021-01-12T20:33:48Z xificurC: Reading the iterate docs I hit into this: "There is one crucial difference between using a the form and actually declaring the variable: explicit declarations are always placed in the generated code, but type information from a the form is not turned into an actual declaration unless you tell iterate to do so using iterate:declare-variables". What
2021-01-12T20:33:48Z xificurC: is then the actual difference of using `declare` and `the`?
2021-01-12T20:35:20Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T20:35:58Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-12T20:36:04Z [d]_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T20:41:39Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-12T20:42:45Z TMA joined #lisp
2021-01-12T20:43:14Z Alfr_: xificurC, (iter (for (the fixnum i) :below 7)) would not expand to something declaring i to be a fixnum, whereas (iter (for (the fixnum i) :below 7) (declare (iterate:declare-variables))) would.
2021-01-12T20:43:52Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-12T20:43:54Z xificurC: Alfr_ what *does* `the` do then?
2021-01-12T20:44:23Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T20:44:34Z Alfr_: clhs the
2021-01-12T20:44:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm
2021-01-12T20:47:09Z Alfr_: xificurC, but in iterate's case the iterate macro walks its body forms and in some places treats the THEs specially, mainly providing appropriate initial values instead of nil and declaring the types.
2021-01-12T20:47:18Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T20:47:53Z xificurC: Alfr_ yes I read that but didn't completely grok it. Re-reading the fourth time it seems to suggest it is merely a type-check, but if the type doesn't match the consequences are undefined
2021-01-12T20:49:25Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T20:52:04Z Alfr_: xificurC, the special operator is more like a promise to the compiler that what form returns is of that type. I don't think there's a requirement to type check. And yes, it's ub when you break your promises.
2021-01-12T20:52:33Z aeth: xificurC: afaik, in general, THE counts as a type declaration of sorts and so should behave similarly to DECLARE. It will check, ignore, or assume the type. Only the last one is problematic.
2021-01-12T20:53:07Z aeth: In general, you should only see that last case with (safety 0)
2021-01-12T20:53:43Z aeth: (I mean, it's entirely UB, but those are the only three possibilities you'll see in practice)
2021-01-12T20:53:50Z xificurC: Alfr_ OK, if it's a promise to the compiler, how is that different from a declaration? Is there a runtime difference you can tell/show me?
2021-01-12T20:54:15Z xificurC: I'm trying to differentiate the two
2021-01-12T20:55:12Z aeth: ITER's THE appears to be different, perhaps just a concise way to declare?
2021-01-12T20:55:34Z Alfr_: xificurC, I don't think there is any.
2021-01-12T20:56:24Z aeth: Usually, you'd use THE in place of DECLARE if you don't want to have to name it as a variable first, e.g. (the fixnum 42) but the example of the (the fixnum i) is declaring a new binding rather than using the value of i.
2021-01-12T20:56:27Z Alfr_: aeth, and specifying the initial binding for the variable to be of the appropriate type.
2021-01-12T20:56:48Z aeth: Alfr_: yes, but that should be redundant with a DECLARE
2021-01-12T20:57:02Z xificurC: the docs say there's a *crucial* difference, which seems to suggest I'm missing something. Also, if there isn't any difference, why does `iterate:declare-variables` exist?
2021-01-12T20:57:22Z luna_is_here quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T20:57:26Z Alfr_: aeth, iterate usually generate (let ((i nil)) ... (setf i -1) ...] .
2021-01-12T20:57:46Z aeth: the more I learn about iterate, the less I like it :-)
2021-01-12T20:57:50Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T20:57:57Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-12T20:58:09Z Alfr_: aeth, I mean that w/ initial binding.
2021-01-12T20:58:35Z aeth: I don't like how any advanced usage of LOOP is going to be indented poorly because it's not s-expression-based (even with the SLIME extensions... try to do a complicated nested conditional), but, wow, iterate makes mistakes that come up in #lisp all of the time
2021-01-12T20:58:58Z Alfr_: aeth, it also parses declare forms in its body, so it's not that bad.
2021-01-12T21:00:50Z xificurC: aeth what are those mistakes
2021-01-12T21:02:20Z xificurC: also, I'm still not sure why does `iterate:declare-variables` exist if you claim there's no difference to `the` and `declare`
2021-01-12T21:04:52Z Alfr_: xificurC, shorter hand I think and the THEs only take effect if declare-variables is declared.
2021-01-12T21:05:06Z Alfr_: short*
2021-01-12T21:12:17Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-12T21:12:19Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-12T21:12:27Z borodust joined #lisp
2021-01-12T21:13:39Z aeth: xificurC: in general, it tries to be too smart, see: above
2021-01-12T21:14:07Z xificurC quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-12T21:17:10Z saturn2: THE only promises what the type will be at the moment a particular form is evaluated, DECLARE promises a variable will always have a particular type where the declaration is in scope
2021-01-12T21:23:16Z frodef``` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T21:26:23Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-12T21:27:56Z Krystof joined #lisp
2021-01-12T21:28:03Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T21:30:03Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-12T21:30:26Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-12T21:33:11Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T21:36:48Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-12T21:39:23Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-12T21:39:47Z l1x quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-12T21:40:58Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-12T21:41:16Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T21:44:54Z aeth: saturn2: right, but you can kind of think of THE as the LAMBDA to DECLARE's DEFUN
2021-01-12T21:45:06Z aeth: sort of, because, yes, SETF kind of ruins that illusion
2021-01-12T21:48:01Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-12T21:52:45Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-12T21:53:00Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-12T21:54:34Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T22:00:36Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-12T22:08:27Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-12T22:11:34Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-12T22:12:13Z PuercoPo1 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T22:12:38Z PuercoPop quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T22:16:56Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-12T22:22:59Z caret quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-12T22:25:34Z PuercoPo1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T22:27:47Z PuercoPo1 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T22:30:54Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-12T22:32:40Z also_uplime quit (Quit: quit)
2021-01-12T22:33:58Z PuercoPo1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T22:37:08Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-12T22:37:34Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-12T22:37:44Z Steeve quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-12T22:41:24Z PuercoPo1 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T22:54:16Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T22:55:15Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-12T22:56:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: I must have misremembered an old blogpost or something
2021-01-12T22:58:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I vaguely remember someone talking about loading every system distributed with Quicklisp into a single image as a sanity check of sorts
2021-01-12T23:05:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T23:06:04Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-12T23:06:16Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-12T23:06:38Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-12T23:10:06Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T23:11:02Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-12T23:13:42Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-12T23:13:54Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-12T23:14:37Z lotuseater quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-12T23:14:55Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-12T23:19:05Z frodef quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-12T23:20:00Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-12T23:20:54Z PuercoPo1 is now known as PuercoPop
2021-01-12T23:23:42Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-12T23:23:58Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-12T23:25:30Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-12T23:26:01Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T23:27:34Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: many have tried. it is a fool's errand. not possible.
2021-01-12T23:30:16Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-12T23:31:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: makes sense, I'd be interested in a "stable" dist that only accepts pure lisp packages (no FFI) that can be loaded together
2021-01-12T23:32:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've occasionally tried to figure out how to host my own diet, for reasons, but never really seriously enough to have anything to show
2021-01-12T23:33:13Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-12T23:33:26Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: i had hoped that dists would be very common, with people hosting lispworks-only software, or other thematic dists, but a combination between a lack of interest and a lack of documentation and probably other factors has made it not happen yet
2021-01-12T23:33:43Z Xach: i think a pure-lisp dist would be quite interesting
2021-01-12T23:36:16Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-12T23:41:09Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-12T23:41:37Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T23:45:53Z charles`: I would think if you were a company writing internal libraries you would want to host your own dist for those.
2021-01-12T23:46:42Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-12T23:46:52Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-12T23:47:58Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: pure-lisp wouldn't be as interesting as zero-foreign-dependency
2021-01-12T23:48:13Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-12T23:48:34Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: there is a distinction... outside of systems with X Windows (where CLX exists and can use the protocol), you can't do anything graphical without some degree of FFI
2021-01-12T23:49:01Z aeth: But if someone made a graphical toolkit on top of just the OSes themselves, then it would be useful.
2021-01-12T23:49:20Z Xach: aeth: what is the distinction between pure lisp and zero foreign dependency?
2021-01-12T23:49:39Z aeth: Xach: basically, OS and graphics drivers as the only dependencies
2021-01-12T23:49:45Z Xach: charles`: sometimes it's just easier to have a git repo for that
2021-01-12T23:50:14Z Xach: aeth: that's neither pure lisp nor zero foreign dependencies?
2021-01-12T23:51:12Z aeth: Xach: Sorry, I'm unclear, I mean zero distributed foreign dependencies. So if someone wants to just wrap the WinAPI, then that should be OK, to complement something like CLX, but OS-agnostic.
2021-01-12T23:51:51Z aeth: As opposed to something like cl-sdl2 where you have to have SDL2, a giant C dependency, at some point.
2021-01-12T23:52:51Z Xach: Oh. Well, I'm thinking of users with semi-exotic platforms, where binding to some "it's installed everywhere! (if you use linux/windows/macos)" is a failure
2021-01-12T23:53:14Z Xach: so pure lisp is a true advantage
2021-01-12T23:53:31Z aeth: Yes, but it also means no portable graphical apps, since most platforms don't have X
2021-01-12T23:53:50Z Xach: it doesn't mean anything of the sort
2021-01-12T23:54:04Z Xach: having a curated dist available does not prevent you from using more than one dist
2021-01-12T23:54:18Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T23:54:30Z Xach: you are allowed to have multiple categories of things in use
2021-01-12T23:54:52Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-12T23:57:28Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-12T23:59:51Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-13T00:02:57Z pillton` joined #lisp
2021-01-13T00:06:02Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T00:07:07Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T00:14:36Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-13T00:19:41Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-13T00:19:54Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T00:21:09Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-13T00:24:36Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T00:25:42Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-13T00:25:43Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-13T00:25:43Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-13T00:26:48Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T00:28:07Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-13T00:32:23Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-13T00:32:35Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T00:32:43Z matryoshka` joined #lisp
2021-01-13T00:45:36Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T00:47:21Z matryoshka` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T00:47:30Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-13T00:50:37Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-13T00:52:48Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T00:53:59Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T00:54:44Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T00:55:48Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-13T00:55:49Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-13T00:56:21Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:01:24Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-13T01:10:22Z zulu-inuoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T01:10:25Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T01:11:36Z remexre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T01:12:13Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T01:12:47Z remexre joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:13:17Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:13:45Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T01:17:41Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:21:35Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-13T01:23:51Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:24:10Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-13T01:24:40Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:25:13Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T01:25:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:27:36Z pillton` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T01:30:01Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T01:34:05Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T01:34:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:38:32Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:40:26Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-13T01:42:32Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:47:43Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-13T01:50:13Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:51:52Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T01:53:26Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T01:53:27Z krkini joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:57:14Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T01:59:34Z mrcom_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T02:00:19Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T02:00:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T02:01:12Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-13T02:05:28Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-13T02:18:17Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-13T02:20:15Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-13T02:21:23Z hhdave_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T02:22:50Z ome joined #lisp
2021-01-13T02:23:45Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T02:27:35Z hhdave joined #lisp
2021-01-13T02:30:04Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-13T02:33:49Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T02:34:02Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-13T02:38:53Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T02:39:17Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-13T02:40:37Z stoneglass joined #lisp
2021-01-13T02:42:10Z hhdave joined #lisp
2021-01-13T02:42:56Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T02:48:42Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-13T02:49:27Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-13T03:00:17Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T03:08:44Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-13T03:12:38Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-13T03:12:47Z NorthStar` joined #lisp
2021-01-13T03:12:48Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T03:14:02Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-13T03:16:09Z NorthStar` quit (Quit:  HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!)
2021-01-13T03:16:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T03:19:12Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T03:23:55Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-13T03:29:24Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T03:30:28Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T03:32:57Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T03:33:41Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T03:34:01Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T03:39:20Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-13T03:41:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T03:42:57Z galex-713 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-13T03:44:06Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T03:46:45Z krkini quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T03:48:01Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-13T03:48:01Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-13T04:03:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-13T04:03:30Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-13T04:05:22Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-13T04:08:09Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T04:08:33Z stoneglass quit (Quit: stoneglass)
2021-01-13T04:12:42Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T04:15:14Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-13T04:24:56Z bacterio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T04:28:30Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T04:29:18Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-13T04:29:20Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T04:30:13Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T04:32:03Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T04:34:28Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-13T04:38:44Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-13T04:39:00Z nydel joined #lisp
2021-01-13T04:40:17Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-13T04:45:44Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-13T04:47:54Z bacterio joined #lisp
2021-01-13T04:55:02Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T05:00:03Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:02:36Z bacterio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T05:03:05Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T05:04:01Z Oladon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T05:05:54Z Oladon joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:07:32Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:08:31Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T05:08:57Z nydel joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:22:14Z totoro2021 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:22:16Z splittist: good morning beach
2021-01-13T05:22:24Z bacterio joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:25:18Z erronius quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-13T05:25:46Z erronius joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:29:02Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:40:22Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:47:04Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:48:46Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:52:10Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T05:53:44Z clintm joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:54:08Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T05:55:52Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-13T06:03:50Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-13T06:03:59Z shynoob joined #lisp
2021-01-13T06:07:59Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T06:09:22Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-13T06:18:52Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T06:21:13Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-13T06:21:45Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-13T06:28:30Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T06:32:11Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-13T06:32:37Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T06:33:40Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T06:34:14Z shynoob quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T06:34:27Z shynoob joined #lisp
2021-01-13T06:42:26Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T06:44:52Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-13T06:45:46Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-13T06:55:52Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T07:01:39Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-01-13T07:06:05Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T07:06:16Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:06:48Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-13T07:07:30Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:07:33Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T07:08:00Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:08:48Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:10:29Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:11:02Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:11:29Z zugzwang_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:11:37Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T07:13:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T07:13:27Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:13:50Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T07:14:37Z shynoob quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T07:15:13Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T07:17:42Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:20:56Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:21:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T07:21:26Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:21:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T07:22:15Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:25:53Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-13T07:26:12Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:29:16Z midre joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:32:45Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T07:33:21Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T07:33:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:33:44Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:34:01Z bacterio quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T07:34:12Z zugzwang_ left #lisp
2021-01-13T07:39:39Z bacterio joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:40:05Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T07:40:26Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:41:50Z ome quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-13T07:41:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach/aeth: yeah, my goal would be to include things like Alexandria that should reasonably be expected to be usable anywhere
2021-01-13T07:42:16Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T07:42:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: quicklisp or ultralisp would be used for things like clim that require functionality beyond the standard
2021-01-13T07:45:16Z aeth: well, more clim backends (that don't currently exist?) than clim, since clim itself would be fine
2021-01-13T07:46:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess so
2021-01-13T07:48:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T07:48:28Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:49:29Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:49:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T07:50:43Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:53:36Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T07:55:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T07:55:28Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:56:15Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:56:15Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-13T07:56:15Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-13T07:56:46Z lottaquestions_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T07:57:14Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:02:12Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T08:02:20Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:04:11Z marusich quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T08:08:47Z xificurC joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:09:39Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:09:42Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:13:14Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-13T08:15:34Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-13T08:17:27Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:18:52Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:19:36Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:30:05Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T08:31:19Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:37:34Z varjagg is now known as varjag
2021-01-13T08:41:14Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:42:39Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:43:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:45:00Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T08:47:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T08:48:12Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-13T08:48:50Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T08:50:45Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:53:39Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:54:13Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T08:54:14Z imode quit (Quit: Actual honest-to-goodness real sleep I swear to god for real this time.)
2021-01-13T08:54:57Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:57:04Z dmc00 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T08:57:17Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-13T08:59:49Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:02:45Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T09:03:49Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T09:04:34Z nopf joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:05:57Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T09:09:13Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T09:11:43Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:12:56Z ludston joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:14:14Z ludston: Is there a quick and dirty way in CLOS to wrap a struct with another struct that proxies through all of the accessors on the wrapped struct?
2021-01-13T09:15:06Z jeosol: beach: I am reading your paper. The template is used is the suggested one for ELS. Do you have a link for the template handy. I think I have seen slightly different designs.
2021-01-13T09:17:01Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T09:17:26Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T09:18:27Z beach: jeosol: I guess it must be on the ELS website.
2021-01-13T09:18:31Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:18:40Z beach: Or, rather, the link to it.
2021-01-13T09:18:41Z jeosol: beach: thanks, I get it from there then.
2021-01-13T09:19:37Z beach: jeosol: I just copy my old papers and modify them.  It is entirely possible that my template is out of date.
2021-01-13T09:19:39Z jeosol: I am taken by the comment in the abstract that presence of optional and/or keyword argument impacts function call performance
2021-01-13T09:20:08Z jeosol: oh ok. I recally having seen a different format. No worries, I'd pick one from the site and create a base template folder
2021-01-13T09:20:25Z beach: "taken by" in what way?
2021-01-13T09:20:50Z beach: Or you can pick up one of my papers. :)  It is in SICL/Papers/...
2021-01-13T09:21:47Z beach: It's on the ELS site.
2021-01-13T09:22:09Z beach: Under "Submissions"
2021-01-13T09:22:44Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:22:51Z jeosol: by "taken by", I mean understand how bad design may reduce performance, and certain styles are better. I'd have to read everything to get the full gist
2021-01-13T09:23:06Z jeosol: for the paper, I was referring the the tex sources
2021-01-13T09:24:41Z beach: I don't know how much you know about the design of a typical Common Lisp system, but keyword parameter must typically be parsed by the callee for each call.  The rules are complicated.  For example, the same keyword argument may occur more than once, and it's the first one that counts.
2021-01-13T09:25:37Z beach: And if :ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS <true> occurs somewhere in the argument list, then no error should be signaled for unrecognized keyword/argument pairs.
2021-01-13T09:25:43Z jeosol: No, I am not a compiler guy, at all, I am mostly application focused, i.e., using the language. I have only started getting deep in the internals as I try to improve performance and get better design
2021-01-13T09:25:50Z jeosol: so the paper will help in that regard
2021-01-13T09:26:02Z beach: I see.
2021-01-13T09:26:26Z beach: Well, as the paper says, compiler macros are often used to avoid this parsing in many cases.
2021-01-13T09:26:27Z jeosol: yes,  with the multiple keyword, the first one is the one that counts/is taken
2021-01-13T09:26:32Z voidlily joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:26:36Z jeosol: I remember that
2021-01-13T09:26:53Z beach: So the callee must loop over all the arguments in order.
2021-01-13T09:26:53Z jeosol: yes, and also the :allow-other-keys
2021-01-13T09:27:11Z beach: So the arguments must probably be saved in order on the stack.
2021-01-13T09:27:22Z beach: ... the keyword arguments at least.
2021-01-13T09:27:28Z jeosol: I have used that to cheat when I pass in a large set of keywords to make-instance
2021-01-13T09:27:37Z beach: Whereas for ordinary arguments, registers can be used.
2021-01-13T09:27:42Z beach: Right.
2021-01-13T09:27:48Z jeosol: I think it's interesting to understand how one can lose performance
2021-01-13T09:28:03Z jeosol: find details that needs to be understand
2021-01-13T09:28:11Z beach: Keyword arguments are very flexible, but if you do it naively, then they are very slow.
2021-01-13T09:28:43Z beach: But the technique in the paper basically creates an automatic compiler macro for each call site.
2021-01-13T09:29:49Z jeosol: That's the part I need to probably improve. I have an object with many slots and in my first iteration, I had a constructor with more keywords that slots as I have to pass other arguments, process then, create objects that are then passed into make-instance. I could probably make things better
2021-01-13T09:30:25Z beach: I see.
2021-01-13T09:30:56Z mankaev quit
2021-01-13T09:31:03Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:31:47Z ludston: jeosol: If you're gunning for efficient code, your constraint is more likely to be the garbage collector than function/method dispatch speed in my experience
2021-01-13T09:31:55Z beach: Also, in the naive case, the callee must check whether a certain argument was supplied at all, and if not, execute the initform for the corresponding parameter.  That's another test which are expensive these days.  With my technique, that test can often be skipped, because it is often clear from the call site whether it is given or not.  Barring APPLY of course.
2021-01-13T09:32:12Z jeosol: ludston: thanks for that
2021-01-13T09:32:25Z seok joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:32:31Z seok: hey guys!
2021-01-13T09:32:46Z beach: jeosol: I don't recall you being worried about generic dispatch though.
2021-01-13T09:32:51Z jeosol: I have a case for an optimization that is doing table-look for the function calls, and I have feel it could be faster.
2021-01-13T09:33:02Z beach: Hello seok.
2021-01-13T09:33:08Z seok: Hi beach!
2021-01-13T09:33:29Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:34:15Z jeosol: beach: I think the generic dispatch are okay. The most I have is dispatch on two classes (multiple dispatch cases).
2021-01-13T09:34:19Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:34:36Z jeosol: I would have to do a benchmarking at least for the table lookup case and see
2021-01-13T09:34:45Z ludston: jeosol: I recommend you don't worry about how fast it is until it's going to be (or is) a problem, and then use statistical profiling techniques to make sure you know exactly what the bottleneck is
2021-01-13T09:35:16Z jeosol: that's what I meant - latter part of your comment
2021-01-13T09:35:31Z beach: PCL generic dispatch is not that great, which is why some SBCL users avoid generic functions.  I think that's a pity, because it's an implementation detail that may change.
2021-01-13T09:35:56Z jeosol: I am not too worried per se, because the practical application, calls to another application is the main bottle neck and can't be optimized
2021-01-13T09:36:37Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:36:40Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T09:36:48Z frodef: beach: on the other hand, an abstraction that is avoided because of its implementation, has a problem one way or the other.
2021-01-13T09:36:49Z jeosol: beach: really beach. My application is CLOS heavy. It runs well though, but I haven't compared to anything else. It was just easier to build the class hierarchies that way
2021-01-13T09:37:44Z beach: frodef: In this case, the only problem seems to be that implementations were conceived at a time when memory was as fast as register operations.
2021-01-13T09:38:15Z jeosol: it will be nice (perhaps in the future) to get some documentation of these type of design considerations and why some are better than others, e.g., like examples when adding to list
2021-01-13T09:38:31Z frodef: beach: that sounds to me like a (potentially) serious problem...
2021-01-13T09:38:54Z beach: frodef: I am not sure what you mean?  Problem with the abstraction?
2021-01-13T09:39:36Z beach: jeosol: I think you are going to need SICL, once we have implemented all those techniques we came up with. :)
2021-01-13T09:39:45Z frodef: beach: yes, if the abstraction can only be implemented in ways that are (prohibitively) expensive.
2021-01-13T09:40:07Z beach: frodef: But I just told you that there are better ways.  And they are documented.
2021-01-13T09:40:33Z frodef: beach: sorry, I didn't get that. (I just logged on, might have missed it.)
2021-01-13T09:40:35Z beach: frodef: In this case, the ONLY problem seems to be that IMPLEMENTATIONS were conceived at a time when memory was as fast as register operations.
2021-01-13T09:41:09Z jeosol: beach: that will be nice, and I'd have a clear benchmark - my application is heavy with number crunching and it seems these additions will/should show differences with base SBCL
2021-01-13T09:41:23Z beach: frodef: Which is why I implemented the technique that most people now call "fastgf".
2021-01-13T09:41:33Z ludston: frodef: I agree with beach, long-term it is not a problem that generic dispatch is inefficient in current implementations, and short-term, it is only a problem if you are CPU-constrained... Which you almost never are these days
2021-01-13T09:41:35Z frodef: beach: ok, I misunderstood.
2021-01-13T09:42:33Z beach: frodef: Did you see the paper I wrote about it?
2021-01-13T09:43:11Z beach: http://metamodular.com/SICL/generic-dispatch.pdf
2021-01-13T09:44:06Z beach: scymtym has an adaptation of it for SBCL, but it seems it will never make it to the SBCL code base.
2021-01-13T09:44:25Z frodef: beach: no, I was just going to ask. thanks for the link. Is that "fastgf"?
2021-01-13T09:44:53Z frodef: why not into SBCL?
2021-01-13T09:44:55Z beach: It's what the cool kids (Bike, drmeister, karlosz, etc.) call my technique from that paper.
2021-01-13T09:45:59Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:46:24Z beach: frodef: I don't know the details, and scymtym was a bit vague about it.  But the technique depends somewhat on how SICL represents standard objects, so a fair amount of restructuring of SBCL would be needed to take full advantage of it.
2021-01-13T09:46:44Z frodef: right
2021-01-13T09:47:13Z beach: frodef: Boy, you have a lot to catch up with, having been away for so long. :)
2021-01-13T09:47:25Z frodef: :)
2021-01-13T09:47:52Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-13T09:47:55Z frodef: in general, imho the "almost nothing is CPU-bound" attitude is fine for applications, not so much for the language/runtime.
2021-01-13T09:48:19Z beach: Words of wisdom it seems.
2021-01-13T09:48:46Z beach: Here is another thing you may want to catch up with: http://metamodular.com/SICL/path-replication.pdf
2021-01-13T09:49:14Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:49:22Z ludston: If you inline dispatch, then add a new method implementation that is more specific to somewhere already inlined, you have to go back everywhere you inlined it and change it?
2021-01-13T09:50:06Z beach: Correct.   Which is why generic functions are typically not inlined.
2021-01-13T09:50:16Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T09:50:38Z beach: ludston: But with the technique in my (draft) paper, that is no problem.
2021-01-13T09:51:08Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T09:51:15Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:52:20Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T09:52:48Z ludston: beach: I'm guessing the sbcl 'call history' isn't up to scratch
2021-01-13T09:53:19Z beach: The call history is still shared by all callers, so that won't be enough.
2021-01-13T09:54:46Z beach: ludston: There is a similar technique (but much less efficient) used by CMUCL and SBCL for MAKE-INSTANCE in particular.  The call site is replaced by a call to a new funcallable instance that works only for the particular argument list of that call site.  Then when the callee changes, the funcallable instance function is updated accordingly.
2021-01-13T09:55:32Z beach: But that technique involves another function call, so there will still be indirections.
2021-01-13T09:55:46Z beach: And the call protocol must be respected.
2021-01-13T09:56:44Z ludston: beach: But that may or may not be a problem if your cpu's branch prediction is good
2021-01-13T09:58:32Z beach: The call itself may not be a big problem, and saving on generic dispatch will help.  But by respecting the call protocol, I mean putting arguments in the agreed-upon places, loading the static environment, creating the callee stack frame, etc.  All that adds up.
2021-01-13T10:02:39Z frodef: btw what is the expected cost of a memory access that is a first-level chache hit (e.g. second access to same object) compared to a register access?
2021-01-13T10:02:57Z beach: Let me check...
2021-01-13T10:03:38Z ludston: It's some absurd exponential difference IIRC
2021-01-13T10:04:01Z White_Flame: iirc 2-4 cycles?
2021-01-13T10:04:04Z frodef: ludston: really? I'd expect the difference to be small..
2021-01-13T10:04:18Z beach: frodef: Core i7 Xeon blabla: L1 4 cycles, L2 10 cycles, L3 40-65 cycles.
2021-01-13T10:04:35Z White_Flame: but again, that latency is hidden by massive pipelining and out of order
2021-01-13T10:04:49Z ludston: Like the ratio between a cache miss and a cache hit is like the ratio between ram access and ssd access
2021-01-13T10:04:51Z frodef: still, much more than I expected.
2021-01-13T10:05:10Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T10:05:29Z frodef: I imagined L1 cache was almost like a register.
2021-01-13T10:05:50Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:06:37Z moon-child: note newer cpus have memory renamers that will put very hot memory locations in registers
2021-01-13T10:07:05Z moon-child: https://www.agner.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41 relevant
2021-01-13T10:07:09Z HDurer quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T10:07:21Z frodef: moon-child: I seem to remember the stack works somewhat like that?
2021-01-13T10:08:10Z moon-child: stack will presumably generally be quite hot, but it's not limited to that; example there shows it indirecting rsi
2021-01-13T10:08:27Z ludston: New CPU's calculate a graph of the instructions that it is running next in order to run them in parallel. A branch misprediction means you have to throw that whole graph out and start again
2021-01-13T10:09:09Z ludston: Maybe not the whole graph.
2021-01-13T10:09:28Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:09:31Z moon-child: yeah
2021-01-13T10:09:46Z moon-child: cpus usually speculate return addresses, with high probability--also looking at stack
2021-01-13T10:10:03Z moon-child: (though shared call and data stack is somewhat harmful for security since it enables rop)
2021-01-13T10:10:32Z ludston: I wonder how sbcl does in that regard? Probably really well given the benchmarks
2021-01-13T10:11:56Z frodef: (btw again it seems to me there's a difference between an application developer saying "branch prediction will fix that" etc, while a run-time must be careful to limit the (undue) pressure on such CPU resources.)
2021-01-13T10:12:37Z beach: frodef: I tend to agree with you.
2021-01-13T10:12:47Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:13:03Z ludston: frodef: I agree that it is worth optimising the language in any way possible
2021-01-13T10:13:31Z beach is working on it.
2021-01-13T10:14:14Z housel quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T10:14:26Z ludston: beach: Thanks :0
2021-01-13T10:15:40Z frodef can't seem to find the thumbs-up icon on this weird social media platform.
2021-01-13T10:16:07Z phoe: frodef: IRC does not have thumbs ups yet
2021-01-13T10:16:30Z beach: Some people disagree though.  For example, stassats doesn't think that requiring two tests instead of one, for each loop over a list, is a problem.  And he doesn't think registers are that much faster than the stack.
2021-01-13T10:16:45Z frodef: phoe: ..nor the irony icon ;)
2021-01-13T10:16:58Z phoe: :D
2021-01-13T10:17:17Z beach: But I think those problems are fun to work on, so I will continue doing so.
2021-01-13T10:18:15Z ludston: DAE notice that around Christmas every year, there is a surge of lisp related articles on all the programming news sites?
2021-01-13T10:18:25Z frodef: btw CPUs are becoming quite clever at optimizing... for C-type runtimes. It's fun/sad to think what the state of CPUs might have been if dynamic run-times weren't weeded out in the 80s.
2021-01-13T10:19:01Z ludston: frodef: Dynamic run-times are dominant currently
2021-01-13T10:19:15Z frodef: ludston: yes, but in a rather roundabout way.
2021-01-13T10:20:43Z White_Flame: there's still barely any hardware GC support (and afaik what is in there isn't even used in major languages like Java), and still no support for tagged words
2021-01-13T10:20:49Z ludston: frodef: In a direct, explicitly dynamic way: Javascript, Python and all the byte-code langs like C# and Java
2021-01-13T10:20:58Z HDurer joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:23:01Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T10:23:04Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:23:05Z frodef: ludston: I might be outdated, but e.g. python is basically a huge interpreter written in C, no?
2021-01-13T10:26:53Z ludston: frodef: What language the interpreter is written in is not necessarily relevant to the assembler/bytecode it emits. Pypython used to be a python interpreter written in python, but I just searched for it and it doesn't look like it is anymore
2021-01-13T10:27:21Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:28:08Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-13T10:28:42Z iskander- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T10:29:45Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:29:46Z frodef: ludston: is python typically ran as compiled machine code? Point is, iirc the "run-time" is basically a C program/state-machine driven by python text or bytecode.
2021-01-13T10:29:55Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:30:16Z ludston: You basically need c to bootstrap for any new CPU architecture these days regardless. i.e. step 1, someone writes a C compiler for the new architecture, step 2, compile common lisp interpreter written in C, step 3: compile sbcl using that interpreter
2021-01-13T10:31:02Z frodef: in other words, if you have a C compiler, you also have a python "run-time".
2021-01-13T10:31:41Z beach: ludston: But that's beside the point, no?  Once you are done with that, you never use the C runtime again.
2021-01-13T10:31:50Z frodef: ludston: I don't think the CL compiler for the new CPU will magically appear just because you have a C compiler.
2021-01-13T10:32:30Z frodef: (is SBCL still based on C bootstrapping?)
2021-01-13T10:32:34Z ludston: frodef: Not sure how python works these days to be honest. They may or may not have a byte-code
2021-01-13T10:32:58Z ludston: No, to compile sbcl you need a common lisp runtime
2021-01-13T10:33:21Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:35:02Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T10:35:03Z frodef: ludston: but do you need a CL runtime that is running on the (hypothetical) new CPU?
2021-01-13T10:35:33Z ludston: beach: That's my point. You can't argue languages with dynamic runtime are c-based once you don't need c
2021-01-13T10:37:47Z ludston: frodef: Yes, so either you have to write your own CL interpreter for the new CPU archictecture (a massive effort), or, just compile clisp and then use clisp to compile sbcl
2021-01-13T10:39:18Z ludston: At some stage you're going to need to tweak sbcl so that it will compile for the new architecture, but the point is that you only write lisp code
2021-01-13T10:39:22Z frodef: fwiw by "C-based" I meant similar to typical C code. For example C# run-time I suspect is heavily influenced by the performance model of CPUs as of 20 years ago, which again comes basically from C.
2021-01-13T10:39:31Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:40:37Z ludston: C# makes me sad
2021-01-13T10:40:54Z dim: well then make it 40/50 years ago maybe, about the CPU and memory model used in the C langauge
2021-01-13T10:41:23Z frodef: or to rephrase: If all the resources that have gone into developing the 8086 since 1970 rather had gone into developing e.g. the Symbolics CPUs, who know where we'd been.
2021-01-13T10:41:34Z frodef: s
2021-01-13T10:41:37Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T10:42:13Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T10:42:23Z dim: remember Alan Kay said that hindsight is worth 80 points of IQ
2021-01-13T10:42:53Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:44:19Z ebrasca: frodef: There are other instruction sets, like ppc64.
2021-01-13T10:47:43Z beach: frodef: So what are your future plans, if any, for Common Lisp hacking?  Movitz2?
2021-01-13T10:48:11Z ludston: frodef: I think that Intel/AMD are going to optimize for javascript, and CL will come along for the ride
2021-01-13T10:48:56Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:49:19Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T10:49:31Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:49:42Z housel joined #lisp
2021-01-13T10:49:44Z beach: "Fredman"?
2021-01-13T10:50:34Z frodef: ludston: hopefully, yes.
2021-01-13T10:51:00Z frodef: beach: Not sure, something Fredman-ish hopefully.
2021-01-13T10:51:15Z beach: Great!
2021-01-13T10:51:47Z frodef: seems to me run-times are woefully underdeveloped in software engineering.
2021-01-13T10:52:03Z beach: Can you elaborate on that?
2021-01-13T10:52:14Z beach: Oh, you mean in the SE curricula?
2021-01-13T10:52:17Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T10:52:33Z frodef: beach: both in theory/school and in practice/industry.
2021-01-13T10:52:43Z beach: I can believe that.
2021-01-13T10:52:53Z beach: Does that suggest a direction of work?
2021-01-13T10:53:42Z frodef: Seems to me a bit ironic, Information Technology that isn't able to handle information about itself very well, or at all.
2021-01-13T10:54:04Z beach: There is lots of irony in the software industry.
2021-01-13T10:54:41Z beach: It has got to be one of the least efficient domains.  At least I hope the others are better.
2021-01-13T10:54:42Z ck_: is that why mainframes used to be called "big iron" ?
2021-01-13T10:55:14Z VincentVega left #lisp
2021-01-13T10:55:27Z beach: "iron"ic?  Oh dear!
2021-01-13T10:56:54Z frodef: my kids would call this a "dad-joke" and give me a look.
2021-01-13T10:57:47Z beach: frodef: Are you currently employed in the software industry?  If so, is your plan to transform it?  Seems kind of hard, no?
2021-01-13T10:58:23Z frodef: btw. I find that quicklisp and cliki.net are great for finding and loading libraries, but is there nothing in the way of "canonical" or "preferred" lists of library code?
2021-01-13T10:58:44Z ludston: frodef: the awesome-cl github repo is pretty good
2021-01-13T10:58:44Z beach: Nope, advice is given here.
2021-01-13T10:59:11Z beach: ludston: First time I hear about it.
2021-01-13T10:59:17Z ludston: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl
2021-01-13T11:00:07Z frodef: beach: no plan to save the world quite yet...
2021-01-13T11:00:26Z phoe: +1 for awesome-cl
2021-01-13T11:00:38Z frodef: beach: ... wait for retirement, move somewhere warm, and start hacking maybe? :)
2021-01-13T11:02:54Z frodef: ludston: thanks
2021-01-13T11:07:30Z beach: Oh, but I don't see the crucial information that many people want, i.e., which of similar libraries is preferable and for what reason.
2021-01-13T11:09:12Z beach: For example, the other day we were told that CL-WHO is not recommended, because it is buggy and incomplete, and not being worked on.
2021-01-13T11:09:18Z beach: I don't see that information here.
2021-01-13T11:10:07Z ludston: TODO: Pull request
2021-01-13T11:11:25Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T11:11:31Z ludston: Ah actually, "For example, we prefer Spinneret over Cl-Who."
2021-01-13T11:11:59Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T11:16:48Z ebrasca: ludston: Why Spinneret over Cl-Who?
2021-01-13T11:17:46Z ludston: ebrasca: No idea haha. Probably because CL-WHO is alegedly buggy and incomplete
2021-01-13T11:19:08Z ebrasca: ludston: I have never have any problem whith cl-who.
2021-01-13T11:19:41Z phoe: claims are easy, proof is hard; I guess the proper rationale could be linked there
2021-01-13T11:24:47Z beach: ebrasca: This information came from the author, so I assume it can be trusted.
2021-01-13T11:28:03Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-13T11:33:48Z hlavaty joined #lisp
2021-01-13T11:36:41Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-13T11:37:21Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-13T11:43:44Z flip214: hmmm, > In the trade-off between 90% convenience and 10% correctness Spinneret is on the side of convenience.
2021-01-13T11:44:22Z Gnuxie[m]: Yeah that's a very strange thing to say
2021-01-13T11:44:39Z ebrasca: Updated my page to use spinneret.
2021-01-13T11:45:40Z flip214: Gnuxie[m]: I guess that means that if you have a function bound on a keyword symbol (I've got a few, for debugging), you can't easily call it - (:h2 ) gives you a <h2>, after all.
2021-01-13T11:46:34Z Gnuxie[m]: Right ok
2021-01-13T11:48:31Z flip214: looks mostly cl-who compatible... I'll give it a try
2021-01-13T11:49:11Z flip214: beach: but wouldn't every (good) engineer warn about probable bugs in her code?
2021-01-13T11:52:40Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T11:56:32Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-13T11:58:54Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T12:00:00Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-13T12:01:52Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T12:09:11Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-13T12:10:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T12:11:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T12:12:01Z flip214: hmmm, spinneret seems to take 2x as long as cl-who for generating a simple HTML document...
2021-01-13T12:12:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T12:12:27Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-13T12:12:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T12:12:58Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T12:13:06Z flip214: but it does so much more (indentation, counting header levels, quoting only when needed, etc) that it's no surprise
2021-01-13T12:18:06Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T12:18:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T12:18:27Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-13T12:21:23Z totoro2021 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-13T12:27:49Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T12:37:47Z totoro2021 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T12:40:02Z totoro2021 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-13T12:40:27Z totoro2021 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T12:45:52Z frodef: but why oh why won't spinneret do the ((:tag :attr ..) ..) syntax?
2021-01-13T12:48:19Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T12:48:39Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-13T12:51:08Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-13T12:52:32Z flip214: frodef: do you have a compelling reason to prefer that way?
2021-01-13T12:57:12Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T12:58:04Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-13T13:01:54Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-13T13:02:07Z xificurC: ludston the canonical python implementation is CPython, which is written in C. Python code is either read from a .py file (source code) or from a .pyc file (bytecode). The interpreter automatically tucks away the generated .pyc files for later reuse and reloads the .py files if they are newer than the .pyc files
2021-01-13T13:02:58Z xificurC: then there's https://www.pypy.org/ , which is a tracing JIT compiler
2021-01-13T13:05:32Z catalinbostan joined #lisp
2021-01-13T13:05:35Z xificurC: the pypy toolchain is interesting, you write in a subset of python and the toolchain generates a tracing JIT for you
2021-01-13T13:06:45Z liberliver quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-13T13:07:23Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T13:08:38Z frodef: flip214: better indenting, I also think it's more explict and clear.
2021-01-13T13:09:24Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T13:17:00Z frgo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T13:17:12Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-13T13:21:35Z skapata quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-13T13:26:11Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-13T13:27:50Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T13:32:30Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-13T13:32:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T13:35:02Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-13T13:35:13Z mfiano: As beach mentioned, cl-who is quite buggy, and the author no longer maintains it and is not sure how to fix some of the issues it has, and we're talking about a pretty smart guy who is well-known in the community. He also authored 'Common Lisp Recipes', a book that makes no mention of cl-who for the topic of HTML generation, for the aforementioned reason. If the author recommends other libraries over
2021-01-13T13:35:14Z mfiano: his own, it says something I would think.
2021-01-13T13:36:08Z mfiano: Source: The author himself:
2021-01-13T13:36:21Z mfiano: Hi Michael,Thanks for your feedback.  I'm not maintaining CL-WHO or my otherlibraries anymore and I'm pretty sure there are better HTML generationlibraries out there nowadays (two of which I'm also mentioning in mybook).  The problem you're referring to is unfortunately inherent tothe way CL-WHO is implemented and I'm not aware of an easy fix.Best regards,Edi.
2021-01-13T13:36:44Z phoe: awesome-cl should get to know that via some sorta issue then
2021-01-13T13:37:00Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T13:40:17Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T13:40:26Z beach: I think the crucial information that frodef was looking for is absent in awesome-cl.  Perhaps in most cases it is not as clear as for CL-WHO ("don't use it...").  But people often look for relative advantages and disadvantages, like generality, run-time performance, compilation time, ease of use, active development, existing maintainer, etc.
2021-01-13T13:40:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T13:44:09Z mfiano: One thing I can say for certain after quite a few years doing web development in CL (though, admittedly, this was a few years ago), is there are about a dozen libraries fitting the purpose and they all fall flat. I think this is partially because of the mess that is the web itself, and partly because there is no concerted effort on such a library. One developer can do an 80% solution for their own
2021-01-13T13:44:11Z mfiano: use-case quite easily.
2021-01-13T13:44:12Z beach: So, ideally, a list like that should include such comparisons of similar libraries, and perhaps some absolute information when a library is fairly unique, like "embryonic", "needs work in ...", "performance could be better".
2021-01-13T13:44:39Z Xach: Sabra Crolleton has done some fantastic work for that for some domains
2021-01-13T13:45:02Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T13:45:05Z frodef: Seems to me that "canonical" libraries are an important aspect of a programming language. In some important sense, libraries for common functionality is really part of the common language itself.
2021-01-13T13:45:14Z Xach: https://sabracrolleton.github.io/json-review for example
2021-01-13T13:45:37Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T13:45:46Z beach: frodef: Maybe, but we are far from that situation still.
2021-01-13T13:45:54Z frodef: having common libraries is important in the same sense it's important not to write your own macros for IF etc.
2021-01-13T13:46:46Z frodef just had a peek at the source for htmlgen from franz.
2021-01-13T13:49:22Z ralt: that makes me wonder, is parenscript maintained?
2021-01-13T13:50:12Z ralt: I made some extensions to it to support async/await a while ago but I'm not sure if I should contribute them back
2021-01-13T13:51:11Z ralt: it's also missing a tons of symbols (to make the symbol mangling work) of recent-ish additions (say, over the past 10 years), so that indicates to me that it's quite close to dead, but I never actually looked
2021-01-13T13:51:37Z frodef: btw. I did get a response from someone not Edi to my cl-who bug-report.
2021-01-13T13:52:48Z mfiano: ralt: It is not dead
2021-01-13T13:54:41Z ralt: ok. I'll try contributing back then.
2021-01-13T13:55:02Z mfiano: There seems to be recent activity on its issue tracker, and commits by the maintainer.
2021-01-13T13:59:48Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-13T13:59:49Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T14:01:56Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-13T14:06:30Z xificurC: I always browse the cliki recommended list of libraries, yet noone mentioned it here. Is it out of date?
2021-01-13T14:06:51Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-13T14:07:40Z xificurC: awesome-cl is nice but as beach points out there's when there's a list of libraries you have no idea which one is recommended
2021-01-13T14:07:54Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-13T14:15:09Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T14:15:11Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-13T14:20:02Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-13T14:20:58Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-13T14:23:12Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-13T14:28:24Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T14:31:13Z flip214: Well, as one(!) of the reasons I'm proposing CL is "speed" (as in "reduces number of required hardware boxes for given workload"), requiring twice the time to generate some HTML hurts quite a bit - that amounts to twice the hardware (compared to CL-WHO) and reduces the utility of my proposed solutions
2021-01-13T14:36:10Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T14:37:14Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T14:37:32Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-13T14:38:01Z beach: To whom are you proposing Common Lisp?
2021-01-13T14:40:11Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T14:42:47Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T14:47:10Z xificurC: is iterate usable without `use-package`ing it? From a REPL session I can't get it to work. Something like `(iter:iter (for i from 1 to 10) (collect i))` spurts a number of undefined function/variable warnings
2021-01-13T14:47:38Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-13T14:49:08Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T14:49:25Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-13T14:49:30Z xificurC: this works and is very readable `(iter:iter (iter:for iter::i iter::from 1 iter::to 10) (iter:collect iter::i))`
2021-01-13T14:51:19Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-13T14:53:16Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T14:53:49Z _death: you can use import-from
2021-01-13T14:54:38Z elflng quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T14:55:10Z travv0: or `(iter:iter (iter:for i from 1 to 10) (iter:collect i))`
2021-01-13T14:55:16Z elflng joined #lisp
2021-01-13T14:56:44Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T14:59:25Z ludston quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T14:59:41Z _death: sbcl has iter::(iter (for i from 1 to 10) (collect i)) but it's unlikely that you want that
2021-01-13T15:00:52Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T15:01:31Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:03:04Z beach: xificurC: There should be no particular reason to put your own variables in the ITER package.
2021-01-13T15:03:21Z beach: xificurC: And you can use a package-local nickname, like I for ITER.
2021-01-13T15:03:23Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:04:27Z beach: xificurC: That would make it: (i:iter (i:for i i:from 1 i:to 10) (iter:collect i))
2021-01-13T15:05:04Z travv0: iterate doesn't export from and to
2021-01-13T15:05:07Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-13T15:05:12Z travv0: so just (i:iter (i:for i from 1 to 10) (i:collect i))
2021-01-13T15:05:21Z beach: Then :USE-ing it won't help.
2021-01-13T15:06:06Z beach: Oh, so it uses the names for the other keywords.  Got it.
2021-01-13T15:06:23Z travv0: yep
2021-01-13T15:08:16Z beach: That's not too bad then.
2021-01-13T15:08:59Z beach: I mean, the package prefixes don't clutter the form too much.
2021-01-13T15:09:25Z travv0: i agree
2021-01-13T15:14:53Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T15:15:01Z mgxm quit (Quit: ....)
2021-01-13T15:15:17Z mgxm joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:15:28Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:15:40Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T15:17:32Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:26:06Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:27:01Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T15:27:22Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:29:27Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:31:44Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:31:47Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T15:32:01Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-13T15:38:02Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:42:30Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T15:45:51Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:47:08Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T15:48:04Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:49:57Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:51:35Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T15:51:59Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:54:22Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:58:52Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T15:59:11Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-13T15:59:13Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:02:12Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T16:02:42Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:04:46Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:06:51Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:07:22Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:07:50Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:09:48Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:11:25Z ramus quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-13T16:18:46Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:19:47Z kmeow joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:20:46Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:26:02Z je-suis-rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:26:49Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:27:41Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:29:47Z je-suis-rpg quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-13T16:31:14Z frgo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:33:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:33:47Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:36:27Z hhdave quit (Quit: hhdave)
2021-01-13T16:36:41Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:37:40Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:37:53Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:38:25Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T16:38:37Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:38:55Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:39:04Z iamFIREcracker quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T16:39:29Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:39:30Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:40:04Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T16:40:22Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:40:45Z ioa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:41:26Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2021-01-13T16:42:31Z wigust quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T16:42:36Z eddof13 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:42:43Z arbv joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:42:48Z wigust joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:43:27Z ioa joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:43:30Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-13T16:45:26Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:45:35Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-13T16:45:41Z hhdave joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:47:54Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:48:49Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:49:11Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:50:44Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:50:54Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:54:14Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-13T16:54:58Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:57:25Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-13T16:57:32Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:57:46Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:58:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T16:59:51Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:59:53Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T16:59:53Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:02:24Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:02:34Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:04:21Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:10:42Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:16:44Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T17:19:34Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-13T17:20:07Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:20:52Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-13T17:23:37Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T17:33:02Z seok quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-13T17:36:18Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:37:44Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T17:39:40Z clintm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T17:41:52Z devon: Unhappy with M-x irc, mainly because not comint based & randomly trashes command history.  Any suggestions?
2021-01-13T17:42:47Z frodef: I'm using erc, but it's not that great really.
2021-01-13T17:43:05Z charles`: I was using erc, but switched to pidgin
2021-01-13T17:43:45Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T17:46:26Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:46:38Z markasoftware: can someone recommend a quicklisp library for finding the roots of a polynomial with the given coefficients?
2021-01-13T17:46:43Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:49:54Z xificurC quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-13T17:54:50Z andreyor1 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:55:28Z aorst quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-13T17:55:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T17:57:05Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:58:07Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:58:16Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T17:58:52Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T17:58:59Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:01:41Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:06:04Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T18:11:08Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:12:03Z phoe: sounds like you could use maxima, in theory
2021-01-13T18:12:33Z phoe: I remember someone was working on an interface to use it from within CL
2021-01-13T18:12:56Z phoe: or even lapack maybe?
2021-01-13T18:15:31Z astronavt: are there GSL bindings for CL already?
2021-01-13T18:15:31Z astronavt: https://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/doc/html/poly.html
2021-01-13T18:15:44Z astronavt: https://common-lisp.net/project/gsll/
2021-01-13T18:18:10Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:23:37Z hlavaty quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T18:30:12Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-13T18:33:28Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T18:33:53Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:35:00Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:35:26Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T18:40:25Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-13T18:41:03Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:44:53Z lotuseater quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T18:45:28Z frodef: slightly off-topic, but can anyone tell me when I am editing a file in emacs that is under git, how can I get a buffer with a previous revision of that file?
2021-01-13T18:46:35Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T18:46:54Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6)
2021-01-13T18:47:09Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:47:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T18:48:23Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:49:06Z jeosol: you want to see the files side by side?
2021-01-13T18:49:10Z jeosol: Do you use magit?
2021-01-13T18:49:40Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-13T18:49:58Z frodef: I just want to see the old revision, plainly.
2021-01-13T18:50:15Z frodef: I use just the default vc thingy, I believe.
2021-01-13T18:50:20Z jeosol: frodef: I see
2021-01-13T18:50:31Z jeosol: so it's not possible?
2021-01-13T18:50:35Z frodef: (should I use magit?)
2021-01-13T18:50:55Z frodef: hopefully it's possible, but it's not obvious enough for me to figure out...
2021-01-13T18:51:10Z jeosol: I think it's possible, I just asked if you use magit as part of your workflow
2021-01-13T18:51:24Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T18:51:38Z jeosol: but if you are just trying to view the diff, then magit is probably an overkill.
2021-01-13T18:51:40Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:52:24Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:53:10Z frodef: not even a diff, just the plain file version that I checked in some days ago.. seems to me the most basic of operations, but somehow it's not obvious how to do it.
2021-01-13T18:53:44Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:53:51Z jeosol: frodef: you'd check it out from git commit and then view it right.
2021-01-13T18:54:15Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-13T18:54:28Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:55:13Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-13T18:55:22Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T18:55:36Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-13T18:56:13Z frodef: or rather, I can do M-x vc-revision-other-window, but I don't know how to name an old revision. Probably I don't understand git.
2021-01-13T18:56:48Z ck_: you can say HEAD^ for the previous, or HEAD~23 for the 23th-previous one, for example
2021-01-13T18:58:01Z ck_: "23rd" even -- how embarrassing!  I'll now hide before someone "off-topic!"s me out of here
2021-01-13T18:59:12Z frodef: ck_: thanks! (I'm surprised/frustrated that I can't seem to find a menu over old revisions, though.)
2021-01-13T18:59:57Z ck_: you should try magit, it's very helpful
2021-01-13T19:00:22Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-13T19:01:04Z frodef: ck_: ok. I just thought I could use vc pretty much like I used to do with CVS, but I guess not.
2021-01-13T19:01:44Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:02:14Z ck_: you probably can, I don't have experience with that though.  Many things are probably just personal preference, but it's generally accepted that magit is very polished, and its menu system is (I think) easy to pick up
2021-01-13T19:03:43Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-13T19:05:00Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:05:03Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:06:06Z xanderle_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T19:16:25Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T19:18:54Z andreyor1 is now known as andreyorst_
2021-01-13T19:19:04Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:20:14Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-13T19:20:16Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:22:38Z MrFantastik is now known as technornancy
2021-01-13T19:25:11Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:25:13Z technornancy is now known as MrFantastik
2021-01-13T19:25:19Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T19:25:39Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:31:52Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T19:33:56Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:33:59Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-13T19:34:44Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-13T19:37:50Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T19:38:40Z Fir3 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:38:45Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-13T19:39:26Z Fir3 left #lisp
2021-01-13T19:40:28Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:40:41Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:40:53Z trafaret1 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:42:26Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:48:36Z python476 joined #lisp
2021-01-13T19:53:57Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-13T19:59:18Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-13T20:04:14Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit)
2021-01-13T20:07:15Z trafaret1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T20:08:03Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T20:08:09Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-13T20:11:23Z l1x joined #lisp
2021-01-13T20:15:28Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T20:18:04Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T20:19:08Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-13T20:20:28Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T20:21:11Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T20:22:07Z catalinbostan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T20:27:13Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T20:32:32Z karlosz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T20:34:40Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-13T20:34:40Z karlosz_ is now known as karlosz
2021-01-13T20:48:06Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-13T20:48:18Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T20:49:02Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-13T20:50:36Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T20:51:00Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T20:57:08Z catalinbostan joined #lisp
2021-01-13T21:02:52Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-13T21:03:34Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T21:03:53Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-13T21:05:21Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-13T21:13:20Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-13T21:16:17Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-13T21:18:46Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-13T21:29:45Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T21:30:05Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-13T21:34:42Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-13T21:37:28Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-13T21:42:34Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-13T21:48:44Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T21:49:17Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-13T21:50:37Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T21:51:02Z kmeow quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-13T21:58:14Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-13T22:00:02Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-13T22:01:03Z saturn2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-13T22:02:02Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T22:03:36Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-13T22:03:38Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-13T22:06:22Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-13T22:06:39Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-13T22:13:05Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-13T22:14:57Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T22:15:26Z frodef: I fell silly for asking this, but what is the preferred idiom for taking the subset of a list by some predicate?
2021-01-13T22:15:46Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-13T22:16:02Z frodef: "filter" I suppose.
2021-01-13T22:16:04Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-13T22:16:19Z travv0: remove-if-not
2021-01-13T22:16:32Z travv0: or remove-if
2021-01-13T22:16:54Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T22:17:32Z frodef: yes, but remove-if-not and the :test-not args are "deprecated", which makes me suspect there's supposed to be another way...
2021-01-13T22:17:57Z Bike: nope, use remove-if-not.
2021-01-13T22:18:15Z Bike: it was deprecated like twenty years ago because they thought COMPLEMENT would be more useful.
2021-01-13T22:18:53Z Bike: but there is no problem using remove-if-not and even if there was somehow a new standard revision, they probably wouldn't actually remove it.
2021-01-13T22:18:53Z clone_of_saturn joined #lisp
2021-01-13T22:19:12Z clone_of_saturn is now known as saturn2
2021-01-13T22:22:05Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-13T22:25:50Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T22:29:20Z mfiano: It's surprisingly actually smaller code size on SBCL, too (though code zie is not a good measure of performance).
2021-01-13T22:29:33Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T22:29:39Z mfiano: zie? size
2021-01-13T22:31:18Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-13T22:31:49Z charles`: filter = remove-if right?
2021-01-13T22:32:36Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T22:33:28Z mfiano: remove-if-not
2021-01-13T22:35:27Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-13T22:42:09Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-13T22:45:31Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T22:49:03Z nydel quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
2021-01-13T22:49:03Z bacterio quit (Quit: bacterio)
2021-01-13T22:49:22Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-13T22:52:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, a falsey return value of the predicate to filter removes the value
2021-01-13T22:52:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: so, REMOVE-IF-NOT
2021-01-13T22:52:47Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-13T22:54:28Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-13T22:54:36Z frodef: Bike: right, thanks, COMPLEMENT was probably the piece of the puzzle I'd forgotten about.
2021-01-13T22:55:25Z frodef: I do find the double negative of remove-if-not quite annoying, though.
2021-01-13T22:56:16Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T22:57:04Z frodef: ...and even more so for (remove keep-value ... :test-not 'eql), which is not very readable at all.
2021-01-13T23:00:49Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-13T23:00:57Z frodef: -- "Several alternative names for REMOVE-IF-NOT were suggested: KEEP-IF, ABSTRACT, FILTER. We did not pursue these suggestions." Oh well.
2021-01-13T23:03:52Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-13T23:03:59Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-13T23:09:36Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-13T23:09:43Z Posterdati joined #lisp
2021-01-13T23:10:31Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-13T23:13:16Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T23:13:22Z phoe: RETAIN too
2021-01-13T23:18:57Z frodef: how about DONTUNREMOVE ?
2021-01-13T23:18:59Z frodef: :)
2021-01-13T23:21:00Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-13T23:27:25Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T23:29:19Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-13T23:31:16Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-13T23:31:17Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-13T23:34:27Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-13T23:34:46Z catalinbostan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-13T23:39:13Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-13T23:39:19Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-13T23:44:19Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-13T23:44:46Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-13T23:50:08Z phoe: PLEASE-KINDLY-RETAIN-WHILST-PREDICATE-IS-NAUGHT
2021-01-13T23:54:22Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-13T23:55:05Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-13T23:55:05Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-13T23:55:05Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-13T23:56:02Z eta: phoe: WHOMSTVE-DARE-RETAIN
2021-01-13T23:56:28Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-13T23:56:46Z phoe: yes
2021-01-13T23:56:59Z phoe: also s/WHILST/WHENEVER/
2021-01-13T23:57:05Z phoe: it's IF, not WHILE, after all
2021-01-13T23:57:16Z Xach: eta: that is best
2021-01-14T00:04:24Z l1x quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-14T00:04:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T00:06:59Z aeth: I'm surprised that a possible alternative to REMOVE-IF-NOT wasn't REMOVE-UNLESS
2021-01-14T00:07:08Z aeth: UNLESS is (almost) IF-NOT in the language...
2021-01-14T00:07:34Z White_Flame: it's NOT-WHEN
2021-01-14T00:07:41Z aeth: right
2021-01-14T00:07:53Z aeth: a true IF-NOT in the language would have a second branch and just reverse the order of the IF
2021-01-14T00:08:08Z aeth: so (if-not test else then)
2021-01-14T00:08:52Z White_Flame: (remove-if-not (lambda (x) (not-when ...)) ...
2021-01-14T00:09:03Z aeth: (defmacro if-not (test then &optional else) `(if ,test ,else ,then))
2021-01-14T00:09:16Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T00:14:21Z Xach:  /win 2
2021-01-14T00:21:30Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-14T00:21:49Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-14T00:21:51Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-14T00:24:42Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T00:32:35Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-14T00:36:40Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-14T00:51:51Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-14T01:00:30Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T01:03:29Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:12:06Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-14T01:12:36Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-14T01:12:55Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:13:36Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-14T01:15:54Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-14T01:16:14Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:17:55Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-14T01:18:44Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:20:19Z ariedro quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T01:20:46Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-14T01:22:30Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:24:45Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-14T01:25:05Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:26:15Z ramus joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:33:13Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T01:33:45Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:34:54Z Demosthenex quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T01:37:21Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:37:31Z Demosthenex joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:38:03Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-14T01:45:43Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:47:24Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:50:05Z ramus quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-14T01:52:16Z secretmyth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-14T01:53:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:54:07Z edgar-rft: I've heard REMOVE-UNLESS does the opposite of REMOVE-UNMORE
2021-01-14T01:56:00Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T01:56:08Z White_Flame: for most cases, REMOVE-UNFEWER would be more grammatically correct
2021-01-14T01:57:18Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T01:57:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T02:09:15Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-14T02:11:35Z ramus joined #lisp
2021-01-14T02:12:35Z dbotton: if anyone over next day or so has time and can try out my tutorial 8 from CLOG running at http://office.botton.com:8080/ I made some critical changes from last test (thank you for using it those that did). The source is at https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/08-tutorial.lisp
2021-01-14T02:13:21Z brandflake11 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T02:14:13Z brandflake11: Hey all, I have a question for you all. I am writing a function in lisp, and need to create a list out of the function's arguments. Here is what I have for the function:
2021-01-14T02:14:23Z brandflake11: (defun pick-three (note1 note2 note3)
2021-01-14T02:14:24Z brandflake11:   (let ((note-list (list (note1 note2 note3))))
2021-01-14T02:14:24Z brandflake11: 	(nth (random 3) note-list)))
2021-01-14T02:14:24Z brandflake11:  
2021-01-14T02:14:50Z brandflake11: Now, when I run this, it has errors of course
2021-01-14T02:14:56Z Bike: please use a pastebin service for multi-line pastes. anyway, so this function is supposed to randomly select and return one of its three arguments?
2021-01-14T02:15:15Z brandflake11: Yes, exactly, and sorry about the pastebin thing
2021-01-14T02:15:40Z Bike: The only problem I see in this paste is that you meant to write (list note1 note2 note3).
2021-01-14T02:15:57Z Alfr: brandflake11, assuming note1 isn't a function, there's your error.
2021-01-14T02:16:03Z Bike: other than that it works, though it might not be the best way to do it.
2021-01-14T02:16:42Z brandflake11: Alfr: What do you mean by this?
2021-01-14T02:17:07Z Bike: you wrote (note1 note2 note3). this means it will call the function NOTE1 with two arguments. Since there's no function called NOTE1, you get an error.
2021-01-14T02:17:26Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-14T02:17:29Z Alfr: brandflake11, what Bike said above. You want (list n1 n2 n3), not (list (n1 n2 n3)).
2021-01-14T02:17:45Z Bike: your compiler might alert you to this. SBCL says "Undefined function: NOTE1" when you compile, and "The function NOTE1 is undefined" when you actually call it.
2021-01-14T02:17:51Z brandflake11: Oh, I see
2021-01-14T02:18:08Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-14T02:18:33Z brandflake11: Thanks so much all, it works now!
2021-01-14T02:18:41Z brandflake11: Is there a better way to take the arguments and make a list?
2021-01-14T02:19:11Z Bike: No, but if you all you want to do is pick one of the arguments randomly, you probably don't need to make a list.
2021-01-14T02:19:13Z brandflake11: I tried '(note1 note2 note3), but they gave me the literal variable names as members in the list
2021-01-14T02:19:48Z brandflake11: Bike: I see. I'm not sure what function would help with that though.
2021-01-14T02:19:59Z brandflake11: Is there a function that returns nth of arguments?
2021-01-14T02:20:05Z saturn2: you can do (defun pick-random (&rest args) (nth (random (length args)) args))
2021-01-14T02:20:32Z brandflake11: I haven't learned about &rest yet, but that's something I need to look into
2021-01-14T02:22:06Z brandflake11: Oh shoot, does that mean I can use any number of arguments?
2021-01-14T02:22:15Z saturn2: yes
2021-01-14T02:22:28Z brandflake11: That's awesome! Thanks so much, I appreciate everyone's help
2021-01-14T02:23:24Z brandflake11: Does the &rest args stand for something? Like is it an abbreviation of a phrase in English?
2021-01-14T02:23:45Z Alfr: There's call-arguments-limit .
2021-01-14T02:24:49Z saturn2: rest is just the word rest, as in the rest of the arguments
2021-01-14T02:25:00Z saturn2: and args is short for arguments
2021-01-14T02:25:14Z brandflake11: saturn2: I see. That makes sense
2021-01-14T02:25:44Z saturn2: args is just a variable name which can be anything you want
2021-01-14T02:26:08Z brandflake11: Oh, and args can substitute where you want the arguments.
2021-01-14T02:26:18Z brandflake11: It's like a meta-variable
2021-01-14T02:27:07Z saturn2: it's just a regular variable, which holds a list of the rest of the arguments
2021-01-14T02:27:36Z brandflake11: That makes more sense
2021-01-14T02:33:02Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T02:39:17Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T02:40:23Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-14T02:40:25Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-14T02:40:30Z brandflake11: One more question: can you use &rest with other mandatory variables? Like (note1 note2 &rest args) making note1 and note2 arguments mandatory?
2021-01-14T02:41:34Z brandflake11: Sorry, I meant mandatory arguments
2021-01-14T02:41:38Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T02:43:18Z saturn2: yes, you can
2021-01-14T02:43:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you know you have 3 arguments, something like this is probably better: (define pick-three (a b c) (ecase (random 3) (0 a) (1 b) (2 c)))
2021-01-14T02:43:48Z brandflake11: saturn2: that is absolutely sweet
2021-01-14T02:44:16Z brandflake11: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks for this suggestion. I'll look into the ecase function!
2021-01-14T02:44:37Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T02:45:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: My laptop autocorrected defun there...
2021-01-14T02:45:57Z brandflake11: Oh, I didn't even notice
2021-01-14T02:49:12Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-14T02:50:19Z saturn2: yes, fiddlerwoaroof's way is more efficient
2021-01-14T02:50:35Z brandflake11: saturn2: What makes it more efficient? Is it easier on memory?
2021-01-14T02:50:47Z brandflake11: saturn2: Or is just a matter of the programming notation
2021-01-14T02:50:47Z brandflake11: ?
2021-01-14T02:51:02Z saturn2: both memory and cpu, it doesn't have to allocate a list or iterate over the list
2021-01-14T02:52:02Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-14T02:53:47Z brandflake11: saturn2: That is good to know about and keep in mind
2021-01-14T02:54:12Z saturn2: you could also get the best of both by adding (define-compiler-macro pick-random (&rest args) `(ecase (random ,(length args)) ,@(loop for arg in args for i from 0 collect (list i arg))))
2021-01-14T02:55:14Z brandflake11: saturn2: Oh jeez, this one looks a little above my head :D
2021-01-14T02:55:38Z brandflake11: That notation is interesting
2021-01-14T02:56:52Z saturn2: that's called quasiquote, it's basically a template
2021-01-14T02:57:17Z saturn2: that macro writes code like what fiddlerwoaroof wrote, but for any number of arguments
2021-01-14T02:58:16Z brandflake11: saturn2: So the macro writes the lisp code itself?
2021-01-14T02:58:41Z saturn2: yeah, that's how macros work
2021-01-14T02:59:38Z saturn2: they are functions that return lisp code, which is then inserted in place of the macro call
2021-01-14T02:59:57Z brandflake11: saturn2: I haven't learned about macros yet either. But man, that is really cool.
2021-01-14T03:01:26Z brandflake11: With a macro, could you create a loop that makes a series of lisp code?
2021-01-14T03:02:34Z saturn2: you mean a macro that recursively uses itself? yes, you can
2021-01-14T03:03:55Z saturn2: and of course you can have regular loops in your macro, the one i wrote above has one
2021-01-14T03:04:57Z brandflake11: :O Wow, that is insane.
2021-01-14T03:05:27Z brandflake11: Would you mind explaining what the ` , and ,@ means in the quasiquote?
2021-01-14T03:05:35Z brandflake11: Or direct me to a good page to read about them?
2021-01-14T03:05:52Z brandflake11: I am looking at the hyperspec, but sometimes it goes a bit over my head
2021-01-14T03:07:05Z aeth: brandflake11: So with quote, it basically follows the distributive property. '(a b c) is essentially like (list 'a 'b 'c) just like (* z (+ x y)) is like (+ (* z x) (* z y))
2021-01-14T03:07:27Z aeth: Quasiquote is a quote you can unquote. `(a b c) is essentially the same as '(a b c) because there's nothing to unquote so it's just all quoted.
2021-01-14T03:07:49Z aeth: `(a ,b c) however, will "unquote" b and so it's like (list 'a b 'c) instead of like (list 'a 'b 'c)
2021-01-14T03:07:58Z aeth: i.e. it will try to look up the variable b
2021-01-14T03:08:32Z brandflake11: aeth: Thanks so much for the explanation. What does the ,@ mean?
2021-01-14T03:09:05Z aeth: ,@ is a bit more complicated. It's unquote splicing. It basically appends the inner list into the outer list
2021-01-14T03:09:11Z aeth: So `(a b ,@'(c d e) f) => (A B C D E F)
2021-01-14T03:09:26Z aeth: Notice that '(c d e) is quoted. Because otherwise it will try to funcall c
2021-01-14T03:09:49Z brandflake11: aeth: Thanks, I was just about to ask you about that last point
2021-01-14T03:09:54Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-14T03:09:57Z aeth: This last part is because you'll probably really just do `(a b ,@(some-function) f)
2021-01-14T03:10:58Z aeth: As for why you'd need ,@ it's mostly for targeting some macros like LOOP, e.g. (loop repeat 3 do (print "hi"))
2021-01-14T03:11:09Z saturn2: my code above collects a list of ecase clauses and splices them into place
2021-01-14T03:11:39Z Cthulhux` quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-14T03:11:49Z aeth: If you're writing a macro with quasiquote that generates a loop, you'll probably have to do something like this: (loop ,@(generate-the-clause-here) do (print "hi"))
2021-01-14T03:11:54Z Cthulhux joined #lisp
2021-01-14T03:12:01Z aeth: well, with loop quasiquoted, of course
2021-01-14T03:12:08Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-14T03:12:09Z brandflake11: saturn2: That makes sense, since you don't want separate lists together. You want one lits
2021-01-14T03:12:12Z brandflake11: *list
2021-01-14T03:12:59Z aeth: The other time you see ,@ a lot is with `(progn ,@body) in macros that have an &body body which is essentially just giving you the rest as a list just like &rest rest
2021-01-14T03:14:56Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-14T03:15:31Z brandflake11:  Do you all ever get confused with the amount of ' you have to apply?
2021-01-14T03:15:44Z aeth: The defmacro for WHEN might look something like this (name changed so you can evaluate it): (defmacro when* (test &body forms) `(if ,test (progn ,@forms) nil))
2021-01-14T03:15:52Z aeth: nested 's aren't that big of a deal
2021-01-14T03:15:57Z aeth: nested `s are extremely confusing
2021-01-14T03:16:08Z aeth: At that point, just use helper functions to keep it simple
2021-01-14T03:18:33Z aeth: If a function is (defined in another file that's loaded first) or (wrapped in an EVAL-WHEN) then it can be used as a helper function... at least for macros; I've never really had to use compiler macros.
2021-01-14T03:19:42Z brandflake11: aeth: Oh, that makes more sense.
2021-01-14T03:20:33Z brandflake11: Is a helper function one that is previously defined to be used in another function?
2021-01-14T03:20:50Z brandflake11: Sorry if that's a silly question
2021-01-14T03:21:33Z aeth: I personally see it as a function that's designed to keep another function (or a macro) short/simple/easy even if it's only going to be called from one caller (at least, outside of unit tests)
2021-01-14T03:21:45Z aeth: but it doesn't have an official hyperspec definition afaik
2021-01-14T03:22:28Z brandflake11: I apologize again for another question, but what exactly is a unit test?
2021-01-14T03:22:30Z aeth: A lot of people don't like functions that are only called from one place, but I love them, especially in macros.
2021-01-14T03:22:45Z aeth: As for unit tests, those are tests of a unit... usually a function or a class or things like that afaik.
2021-01-14T03:23:18Z aeth: If you break up a big, messy macro into lots of functions, then you can test to make sure that any changes you make don't change any of those functions, which gives you more confidence to mess around with really tricky macros
2021-01-14T03:24:15Z aeth: If you just have the macro, then you'll have to write a lot of tests on the macro directly, probably with MACROEXPAND-1 to test expanding the macro
2021-01-14T03:27:16Z aeth: More concreately, you could have a function for your macro that turns (foo bar baz) into ((foo (make-quux 'foo)) (bar (make-quux 'bar)) (baz (make-quux 'baz))) and this is small, simple, and easy to test.
2021-01-14T03:28:08Z aeth: then the macro itself just does something like `(let ,(your-function input) ,@body)
2021-01-14T03:28:48Z brandflake11: aeth: Have you had to change the way you format your macros in professional environments because some people don't like formatting like that?
2021-01-14T03:30:20Z aeth: Try to match the style of the person who originally wrote the file. There are lots of little things that can be different in styles.
2021-01-14T03:30:49Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T03:30:53Z aeth: In general, though, writing macros is rare.
2021-01-14T03:33:14Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-14T03:34:07Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T03:39:03Z brandflake11: Thanks to all of the help I received on here. I have created my random sequencer in common music successfully!
2021-01-14T03:39:42Z saturn2: nice :)
2021-01-14T03:42:13Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T03:43:11Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-14T03:43:12Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-14T03:43:12Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-14T03:45:44Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-14T03:47:05Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-14T03:47:57Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-14T03:48:49Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-14T03:49:35Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-14T03:49:57Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-14T03:52:59Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T03:53:17Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-14T03:53:34Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-14T03:58:51Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T04:02:44Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T04:09:30Z Dizidentu joined #lisp
2021-01-14T04:12:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-14T04:14:28Z Dizidentu: good morning
2021-01-14T04:19:53Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-14T04:22:47Z brandflake11 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-14T04:23:10Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T04:23:14Z brandflake11 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T04:23:29Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T04:25:14Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-14T04:27:39Z stoneglass joined #lisp
2021-01-14T04:28:38Z manicennui left #lisp
2021-01-14T04:30:08Z beach: FILTER is not a great name for a filtering function, because it doesn't say whether the objects for which the predicate returns true are kept or discarded.  REMOVE-IF and REMOVE-IF-NOT are much better.
2021-01-14T04:37:42Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T04:39:44Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-14T04:40:01Z brandflake11 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-14T04:43:50Z beach: Dizidentu: So I saw in the logs that you are a C++ programmer.  I think it would be a good idea for you to learn some Common Lisp to get another perspective on programming.
2021-01-14T04:45:44Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-14T04:48:42Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-14T04:57:01Z erronius quit
2021-01-14T04:59:24Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-14T05:00:54Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:01:00Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-14T05:01:07Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-14T05:04:35Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T05:08:27Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T05:17:31Z Khisanth joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:17:33Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-14T05:22:07Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-14T05:22:10Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:24:24Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T05:25:15Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:25:20Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:26:59Z stoneglass quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T05:27:31Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:28:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T05:28:46Z hineios4 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:30:49Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T05:30:49Z hineios4 is now known as hineios
2021-01-14T05:31:19Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:31:54Z galiant joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:35:34Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-14T05:37:15Z galiant quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T05:38:29Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:42:09Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:45:45Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T05:46:36Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:47:04Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-14T05:55:20Z Dizidentu: beach I have python on my list before lisp
2021-01-14T05:55:42Z beach: Oh, that's a bad idea.
2021-01-14T05:55:59Z Dizidentu: they are the same purpose?
2021-01-14T05:56:08Z Dizidentu: is lisp like python?
2021-01-14T05:56:13Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-14T05:56:17Z Dizidentu: anyways
2021-01-14T05:56:21Z beach: Python is a pure interpreter, which means you can't really get any performance out of it, unless you write your code in C.
2021-01-14T05:56:44Z beach: Most Common Lisp systems compile on the fly, so you can write all your code in a truly high-level language.
2021-01-14T05:57:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T05:57:21Z beach: Furthermore, Python is not homoiconic, so you can't really do any metaprogramming in it, like macros.
2021-01-14T05:57:50Z White_Flame: each languages seems to have its own definition of "metaprogramming".  For python, it seems to be adding hooks on object methods
2021-01-14T05:58:06Z White_Flame does not accept that definition
2021-01-14T05:58:13Z Dizidentu: :)
2021-01-14T05:58:28Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-14T05:58:29Z beach: White_Flame: Thanks.  I am not following the Python terminology, so I appreciate the information.
2021-01-14T05:58:41Z Dizidentu: I would stay but I just got back and I want to catch this flight into slumber land while I still can :|
2021-01-14T05:59:19Z beach: Dizidentu: Sleep well.
2021-01-14T05:59:27Z Dizidentu: hey, thanks
2021-01-14T06:00:30Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie)
2021-01-14T06:00:38Z wxie1 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T06:01:17Z beach: And, no, I think the purpose of Python is as a "scripting language", whereas Common Lisp is a general-purpose programming language.
2021-01-14T06:02:59Z wxie1 is now known as wxie
2021-01-14T06:05:12Z saturn2: it doesn't seem like people care much about that distinction anymore
2021-01-14T06:05:50Z White_Flame: because most people don't actually do core programming anymore, but rather call libraries (iow scripting)
2021-01-14T06:05:50Z beach: But they should, shouldn't they?
2021-01-14T06:06:06Z White_Flame: one then should wonder where the libraries come from
2021-01-14T06:06:22Z beach: Mhm.
2021-01-14T06:06:50Z saturn2: i mean, people build full applications in python
2021-01-14T06:07:06Z White_Flame: and in tcl as well
2021-01-14T06:07:07Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.
2021-01-14T06:07:51Z beach: drmeister once showed us a site that gave the cost in electric power per computation unit for various languages, and Python is really bad.
2021-01-14T06:08:07Z beach: Sorry, electric ENERGY per computation unit.
2021-01-14T06:09:16Z saturn2: yeah, the python interpreter is astonishingly slow
2021-01-14T06:12:39Z parjanya joined #lisp
2021-01-14T06:16:18Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-14T06:16:24Z parjanya: mornings! Is there a function, or an easy test... to check if an object can be printed readably?
2021-01-14T06:20:19Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-14T06:23:46Z beach: Probably not.
2021-01-14T06:24:35Z beach: The answer would be influenced by things like methods on PRINT-OBJECT, and the existence of reader macros.
2021-01-14T06:24:53Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-14T06:29:18Z White_Flame: (handler-case (let ((*print-readably* t)) (write-to-string <item> nil)) (t (t) t))
2021-01-14T06:29:19Z White_Flame: "easy" test?
2021-01-14T06:29:29Z White_Flame: oops, NIL outside the write-to-string, as a return value
2021-01-14T06:30:54Z catalinbostan joined #lisp
2021-01-14T06:31:10Z White_Flame: actually, (ignore-errors (...try to print readably...) t), returning NIL if it isn't readable, is easier
2021-01-14T06:31:27Z White_Flame: *readably printable
2021-01-14T06:33:53Z parjanya: ah, very good idea, thanks! I tried finding a way to chase the method for printing, but no luck
2021-01-14T06:34:25Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T06:40:46Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T07:01:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: That'll still output #< reader macros
2021-01-14T07:02:58Z White_Flame: could be.  Printing and testing for a "#<" prefix was my first idea
2021-01-14T07:03:19Z beach: White_Flame: That's a nice idea!
2021-01-14T07:03:44Z stargazesparkleM quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-14T07:04:17Z White_Flame: I just tested with function objects, and those blew up when *print-readably* was set
2021-01-14T07:04:54Z flip214: how about reading the printed output in a ignore-case?
2021-01-14T07:04:58Z flip214: *ignore-errors
2021-01-14T07:05:09Z White_Flame: yep, read a few lines more
2021-01-14T07:05:19Z White_Flame: (irc lines)
2021-01-14T07:05:35Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-14T07:05:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: This works (let ((*print-readably* t)) (write-to-string (make-hash-table)))
2021-01-14T07:05:55Z parjanya: it works ok here with ignore-case even with functions
2021-01-14T07:05:58Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T07:06:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: prints "#<hash-table>"
2021-01-14T07:06:16Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T07:06:58Z White_Flame: disclaimer: what I proposed was an idea, not a solution ;)
2021-01-14T07:08:36Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T07:08:53Z flip214: White_Flame: sorry, I haven't seen READ mentioned yet.
2021-01-14T07:08:54Z flip214: (read-from-string (with-output-to-string (s) (write '(1 2) :stream s :readably t)))
2021-01-14T07:09:08Z White_Flame: ah, nifty
2021-01-14T07:09:25Z parjanya: https://edgard.bikelis.com/lisp/printablep.txt
2021-01-14T07:10:23Z White_Flame: if you truly do want to prune the values, then (values (thing-that-returns-multiple-values...)) does only return the first
2021-01-14T07:10:50Z parjanya: I suspected there was a better way :-$ tx
2021-01-14T07:11:36Z parjanya: works beautifully on all my extensive five tests : o )
2021-01-14T07:11:57Z White_Flame: even hash tables?
2021-01-14T07:12:09Z parjanya: yep!
2021-01-14T07:12:27Z parjanya: I’m on CCL, so not sure about the others yet
2021-01-14T07:16:46Z parjanya: turns out clisp and sbcl do output something, sigh
2021-01-14T07:17:40Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-14T07:17:50Z White_Flame: hmm, is that a bug re the standard?
2021-01-14T07:17:59Z White_Flame: implementation bugs, that is
2021-01-14T07:18:23Z White_Flame: "If printing an object readably is not possible, an error of type print-not-readable is signaled rather than using a syntax (e.g., the ``#<'' syntax) that would not be readable by the same implementation."
2021-01-14T07:20:40Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-14T07:24:13Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-14T07:25:13Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T07:27:16Z jello_pudding joined #lisp
2021-01-14T07:28:01Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-14T07:29:30Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T07:30:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T07:31:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-14T07:33:18Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T07:33:31Z todun joined #lisp
2021-01-14T07:45:13Z scymtym__ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T07:49:08Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T07:54:01Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T07:56:06Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T07:56:35Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:00:06Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:01:17Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T08:12:13Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T08:12:19Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:12:25Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T08:12:52Z dwts quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T08:13:57Z Tordek joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:14:10Z vert2 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:14:33Z dwts joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:17:03Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T08:17:31Z todun quit (Quit: todun)
2021-01-14T08:19:01Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:21:52Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:23:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T08:23:41Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:24:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T08:25:21Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:27:35Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T08:27:57Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:29:44Z xanderle_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:30:37Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:31:03Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T08:39:05Z xificurC joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:40:22Z slyrus joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:43:58Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:45:49Z frgo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T08:46:41Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:48:36Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T08:52:37Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:52:39Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:57:49Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-14T08:58:33Z xificurC: yesterday someone pointed out I can define a package local nickname for a package, where can I do that? I don't see this option in the defpackage clhs page
2021-01-14T08:59:53Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-14T09:00:36Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-14T09:00:46Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-14T09:01:38Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-14T09:01:38Z xificurC: found this https://gist.github.com/phoe/2b63f33a2a4727a437403eceb7a6b4a3
2021-01-14T09:02:54Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T09:06:01Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-14T09:06:18Z xificurC: I'm really glad this is getting implemented, it's a huge boon in the lisp that doesn't like to get discussed here (or even be called a lisp)
2021-01-14T09:06:54Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T09:07:15Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-14T09:07:25Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T09:09:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T09:11:17Z beach: xificurC: What does "the lisp that doesn't like to get discussed here" mean?
2021-01-14T09:11:37Z xificurC: beach: clojure
2021-01-14T09:12:53Z flip214: well, the topic says "Common Lisp"
2021-01-14T09:13:00Z beach: xificurC: There is widespread agreement, even among the commercial Common Lisp vendors to implement package-local nicknames.  But how does the implementation of package-local nicknames for Common Lisp benefit "other lisp"?
2021-01-14T09:13:26Z mfiano: PLN has been a thing for 9 years now
2021-01-14T09:13:41Z mfiano: Sorry 10
2021-01-14T09:15:40Z xificurC: I'm saying I've been using local nicknames (aliases) in clojure and am happy I can use them in CL now as well
2021-01-14T09:16:11Z xificurC: I mentioned it because I thought it might have been an inspiration to finally implement it
2021-01-14T09:18:42Z xificurC: the last thing I'd like is for `(i:iter (for i from 1 to 10) (collect i))` work. But the reader screws me over, even though `iter` could resolve `for` and `collect` during macroexpansion
2021-01-14T09:19:54Z beach: You need to complain to the person who wrote the ITER library.
2021-01-14T09:20:27Z beach: Or, you can use LOOP instead, which is standard.
2021-01-14T09:21:14Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T09:22:20Z xificurC: beach: you mean it would be possible to do that? I thought it's not possible
2021-01-14T09:22:32Z beach: To do what?
2021-01-14T09:23:02Z xificurC: that example, `(i:iter (for i from 1 to 10) (collect i))`, to work
2021-01-14T09:23:11Z mfiano: Not only possible but less code and more readable by others
2021-01-14T09:23:19Z mfiano: (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect i)
2021-01-14T09:23:36Z beach: LOOP can do it, so I don't see why ITER could not.  But it would likely require a radical restructuring of the code.
2021-01-14T09:24:20Z xificurC: loop is a builtin, so it could have the privilege to do that while others can't
2021-01-14T09:24:43Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T09:24:49Z beach: xificurC: It is a simple matter of using the names of the symbols involved instead of the symbols themselves.
2021-01-14T09:25:00Z flip214: xificurC: how about i::(iter (for i from i to 10) (collect i))? but then the symbol "i" would be in the iter package...
2021-01-14T09:25:14Z beach: xificurC: But I am guessing that FOR is a local macro introduced by ITER, and that would have to change.
2021-01-14T09:25:19Z xificurC: I remember iter being praised, now I see it being, ehm, not praised
2021-01-14T09:25:31Z mfiano: A lot of people shy away from trying to understand codebases using ITER
2021-01-14T09:25:45Z mfiano: flip214: That's not standard
2021-01-14T09:26:24Z beach: xificurC: It is possible that ITER can do some things that LOOP can not, but the fact that ITER is not standard is an argument against it, especially since LOOP can handle most situations.
2021-01-14T09:26:30Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-14T09:27:03Z beach: xificurC: The argument that people use in favor of ITER and against LOOP is often that "LOOP is not Lisp-y", which is silly of course, since it is part of the standard.
2021-01-14T09:27:13Z xificurC: mfiano why shy away? I don't find it much harder to read or understand than loop. Are there some inherent flaws in its implementation?
2021-01-14T09:28:36Z xificurC: beach I thought the main argument is that an external package can extend iter, e.g. a database library exposing a cursor can plug it into it
2021-01-14T09:28:47Z beach: xificurC: An external library that may or may not be maintained in the future, and that does little more than a standard facility should be given some thought before being used.
2021-01-14T09:28:52Z heisig: xificurC: It is a question of the amount of 'vocabulary' that I need to know to read your code.  LOOP is (for good or for bad) part of the vocabulary we all know.  ITER isn't.
2021-01-14T09:28:54Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-14T09:29:12Z mfiano: It's not standard Lisp which everyone is familiar with, it can have its forms broken up and spread out, it is often used like it is standard with use-package.
2021-01-14T09:29:23Z beach: xificurC: I don't see any extension being used by your code there.
2021-01-14T09:30:20Z flip214: heisig: but the same argument applies to lparallel, cl-who, alexandria, and so on and on.
2021-01-14T09:30:50Z beach: flip214: There is no standard facility corresponding to those.
2021-01-14T09:30:53Z beach: So that's different.
2021-01-14T09:31:12Z xificurC: beach I was showing the simplest example, not a real one. At this point in time I'm not using anything that loop doesn't handle, so it's easy to switch back
2021-01-14T09:31:26Z heisig: flip214: It is a difference whether you introduce functions or macros.  And even with macros, there is a difference between introducing an obvious WITH-* macro, or an entirely new control-flow construct.
2021-01-14T09:31:38Z beach: xificurC: So in that case, use LOOP for everything that does not require an extension.
2021-01-14T09:32:32Z mfiano: In 15 years I have not needed LOOP to do anything else. One has to be careful about shiny things, features you think you might need, or think they  will benefit you, but in turn do more harm than good.
2021-01-14T09:32:32Z xificurC: this is the lisp schizofrenia I never understood - an infinitely extensible language that nobody wants to extend
2021-01-14T09:32:47Z flip214: beach: I don't think that's a good argument. If something is being used often, it becomes mainstream - and then you'll see it so often that you'll just know it.
2021-01-14T09:33:04Z beach: I totally agree with mfiano.
2021-01-14T09:33:13Z flip214: so your argument sounds to me like "something must be used everywhere to be used everywhere", which is loopy ;)
2021-01-14T09:33:40Z beach: xificurC: It is extended most often on a per-application basis.  That's the beauty of it.
2021-01-14T09:33:40Z xificurC: that was a reaction to "It is a question of the amount of 'vocabulary' that I need to know to read your code"
2021-01-14T09:34:09Z flip214: heisig: so a CPS transform is bad, as it produces new control-flow semantics?
2021-01-14T09:34:37Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack)
2021-01-14T09:34:57Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-14T09:35:27Z beach: xificurC: Applications introduce new vocabulary in the form of functions, macros, classes, etc.  That vocabulary becomes specific to the application and its domain.
2021-01-14T09:35:43Z xificurC: beach why deprive libraries of that extensibility?
2021-01-14T09:35:44Z beach: xificurC: That kind of extension is common and perfectly acceptable.
2021-01-14T09:36:09Z beach: xificurC: I have no intention of depriving anyone of anything.
2021-01-14T09:36:13Z heisig: xificurC: Extending Lisp is just something that shouldn't be done lightly.  If you are working with music, this is a good reason to introduce custom notation.  But 'I don't like LOOP' is not a very good reason for introducing custom notation.
2021-01-14T09:37:10Z flip214: heisig: but the big reason for ITER is that it's notation is more Lisp-like!
2021-01-14T09:37:42Z beach: "The argument that people use in favor of ITER and against LOOP is often that "LOOP is not Lisp-y", which is silly of course, since it is part of the standard."
2021-01-14T09:37:53Z mfiano: The flexibility of Lisp allows you to use iterate or extend the language with new syntax of your own. This is why Lisp suffers from NIH, being so flexible and thus designed for small teams, makes it often more desirable and easier to re-implement a piece of software yourself, than to try to understand someone else's code. After all, code is just a projection of your mind, and trying to understand
2021-01-14T09:37:55Z mfiano: someone else's moulding of the language for a particular domain usually doesn't map too well.
2021-01-14T09:41:40Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T09:43:11Z xificurC: mfiano "In 15 years I have not needed LOOP to do anything else" - I find this thinking backwards. LOOP was chosen and implemented by a committee. That committee could have accepted SERIES just as well. Or it could have accepted none of them and we would be writing mapcars and the like. In that world if a user comes asking about LOOP, which is now a
2021-01-14T09:43:11Z xificurC: library, would the argument be "In 15 years I have not needed LOOP because mapcar and friends can do everything LOOP can"?
2021-01-14T09:43:56Z mfiano: xificurC: If we had series for decades of widespread use I would have "thought forward"
2021-01-14T09:44:24Z xificurC: what does that mean?
2021-01-14T09:46:59Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-14T09:47:05Z xificurC: I only picked up 2 dependencies so far. I see iterate is not, ehm, famous around here :)  The second is trivia. Is trivia OK?
2021-01-14T09:47:20Z heisig: xificurC: I think I know how you feel about LOOP.  It is not that I haven't used ITER myself because it is more powerful and flexible.  But here I am, back to using LOOP.  And why is that?  Because having a powerful iteration construct is really not that important.
2021-01-14T09:47:27Z heisig: Readable code is much more important.
2021-01-14T09:48:05Z heisig: I think Trivia is OK though, but I don't know how others think about that.
2021-01-14T09:48:07Z mfiano: When I first began using Lisp I too used iterate for a short while, but I couldn't agree more with heisig.
2021-01-14T09:48:12Z flip214: heisig: and ITER isn't as readable as LOOP? Which difference (apart from the parens) do you see, in typical use?
2021-01-14T09:48:16Z xificurC: heisig so you're saying in the years you programmed you find LOOP more readable than ITER, is that correct?
2021-01-14T09:49:17Z flip214: another feature of ITER is that the clauses like COLLECT can be used in subforms as well - LOOP requires them at the loop-level, which is awful sometimes
2021-01-14T09:49:36Z heisig: xificurC: 100% of the Lisp programmers know about LOOP, but only at most 60% (at most) know about ITER.  That settles it for me.
2021-01-14T09:50:33Z mfiano: LOOP only cares about the symbol name for LOOP keywords. Iterate requires you to modify symbol property lists for synonyms.
2021-01-14T09:50:43Z mfiano: Which even contradicts its own documentation in this regard.
2021-01-14T09:51:49Z catalinbostan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T09:52:00Z xificurC: I'll be getting rid of iterate then, at least for now.
2021-01-14T09:52:07Z xificurC: thanks for the discussion
2021-01-14T09:52:20Z xificurC: mfiano it requires modification of what?
2021-01-14T09:53:43Z flip214: heisig: 10% of programmers know Java, but only 1% of programmers know Lisp. How is that an argument against Lisp?  (numbers invented)
2021-01-14T09:54:24Z flip214: I just know that people have to learn new things all the time...
2021-01-14T09:54:41Z beach: flip214: Java does not have Common Lisp (with a different syntax) already built in.
2021-01-14T09:54:46Z mfiano: xificurC: symbol-plists of iterates symbols
2021-01-14T09:55:10Z flip214: of course, there's no reason to invent new code-flow macros all the time - but a nearly 1:1 translation of a construct defined in the standard is on the safe side, me thinks.
2021-01-14T09:55:12Z Khisanth joined #lisp
2021-01-14T09:56:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T09:57:52Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-14T09:58:28Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-14T10:01:15Z heisig: flip214: I think the benefits of using Lisp over Java are greater than those of using ITER over LOOP.  But even then I occasionally choose Java or Python over Lisp for some projects, because it is more accessible for the target audience.  (Not often though, and not gladly)
2021-01-14T10:10:49Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-14T10:13:03Z python476 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T10:14:45Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-14T10:15:45Z luni left #lisp
2021-01-14T10:20:43Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-14T10:20:45Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T10:24:12Z ludston joined #lisp
2021-01-14T10:24:17Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T10:24:22Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T10:31:56Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-14T10:41:37Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-14T10:55:00Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T10:55:10Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T10:58:18Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-14T10:58:19Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T10:59:57Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-14T11:01:16Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T11:04:27Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T11:05:31Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-14T11:08:41Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-14T11:10:28Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T11:13:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T11:14:23Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T11:15:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T11:17:19Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T11:21:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T11:23:46Z amerigo joined #lisp
2021-01-14T11:24:53Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T11:26:33Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-14T11:27:59Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-14T11:28:00Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T11:29:32Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T11:29:58Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T11:30:25Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-14T11:32:16Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T11:32:37Z hineios joined #lisp
2021-01-14T11:32:48Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T11:33:30Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-14T11:37:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T11:39:49Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-14T11:48:46Z xificurC quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-14T11:57:19Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:03:00Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:06:29Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:08:49Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:12:22Z fanta1 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:13:21Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T12:15:34Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T12:15:58Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:16:08Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:16:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T12:17:02Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:27:35Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:33:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T12:33:14Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:40:12Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:40:56Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack)
2021-01-14T12:42:22Z frgo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:45:57Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T12:49:46Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:49:47Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:50:54Z fanta1 quit (Quit: fanta1)
2021-01-14T12:50:55Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host)
2021-01-14T12:50:55Z Cthulhux joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:52:16Z catalinbostan joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:53:13Z scymtym__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T12:53:28Z nmg joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:53:43Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-14T12:54:52Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T12:55:21Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:01:30Z xificurC joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:06:25Z ludston quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T13:18:25Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:19:47Z gko_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:28:51Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:29:52Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:30:39Z gko_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T13:33:22Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T13:36:46Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T13:37:46Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:42:10Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:43:08Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T13:43:09Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:44:11Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:44:57Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T13:45:08Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T13:45:54Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T13:46:48Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:48:20Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:49:13Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:51:30Z guaqua quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T13:51:59Z guaqua joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:53:16Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T13:54:11Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-14T13:54:26Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:57:13Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-14T13:57:33Z nmg quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T14:01:43Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T14:03:45Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:04:14Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:06:24Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T14:06:24Z frgo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T14:08:20Z dim: I didn't follow closely and am wondering if ABCL is relevant to this Java/Common-Lisp discussion
2021-01-14T14:09:08Z je-suis-rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:09:55Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:10:51Z je-suis-rpg quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-14T14:13:59Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T14:16:04Z heisig: dim: No, I don't think so.  But ABCL is a great thing to have.
2021-01-14T14:16:54Z xificurC: can someone enlighten me how to correctly generate unhygienic code here? http://ix.io/2M0v . `aif` is just an example
2021-01-14T14:17:07Z heisig: We recently had a project where we needed a computer algebra system in Scala.  Our solution was to load ABCL into the same image, and to use ABCL to load Maxima.
2021-01-14T14:17:42Z xificurC: heisig nice solution
2021-01-14T14:18:13Z fanta1 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:19:21Z heisig: xificurC: Your code is unhygenic, but you are in the wrong package.  You pollute c::it, but write a cl-user::it.
2021-01-14T14:20:33Z xificurC: heisig being unhygienic is the point in this case :)  The fragment generates `C::IT` but I want to generate `IT` for whatever package is using the macro. Does that make sense?
2021-01-14T14:21:00Z beach: xificurC: Symbol names are handled at read time.  At macro-expansion time it's too late.
2021-01-14T14:21:17Z Xach: LOOP handles it by comparing symbol-names.
2021-01-14T14:21:25Z heisig: xificurC: Be careful what you wish for :)  I would suggest having the package C export IT, and to have other packages import it.
2021-01-14T14:21:45Z heisig: But if you really want to capture all kinds of IT, you need a substituting code walker.
2021-01-14T14:22:19Z xificurC: I don't remember Paul Graham talking about this stuff in On Lisp. Was he just avoiding this whole topic by not using any packages?
2021-01-14T14:22:23Z flip214: xificurC: get the symbol passed in
2021-01-14T14:22:29Z beach: xificurC: Also AIF is really strange, since it handles general values as if they were Booleans.  You are much better off without it.
2021-01-14T14:22:49Z Xach: xificurC: paul graham did not document all the features of common lisp. packages are not discussed in detail.
2021-01-14T14:23:32Z heisig: xificurC: If you really want to try this, use a code walker like https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mraskin/agnostic-lizard and have AIF replace all symbols named IT with C::IT.
2021-01-14T14:23:37Z heisig: (Please don't)
2021-01-14T14:24:05Z xificurC: so let me rephrase to see if I understood this: to use unhygienic macros across packages one would need to use a code walker
2021-01-14T14:24:14Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:25:33Z beach: xificurC: In fact, most of the anaphoric macros are weird and should probably be avoided altogether.
2021-01-14T14:26:30Z beach: It's a cute exercise in how the macro system can be used, but not particularly useful, and not particularly conform with other software-engineering practices.
2021-01-14T14:26:59Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:28:14Z heisig: xificurC: Here is one more solution:  Your AIF macro could intern the name "IT" into the value of *package* that is used at macroexpansion time.  But that would also violate some assumptions that readers of your code might have.
2021-01-14T14:28:50Z heisig: Usually it is a good idea to listen to beach's advice.
2021-01-14T14:29:38Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-14T14:31:09Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:31:56Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T14:34:47Z xificurC: as I said `aif` wasn't the particular example. This one was http://ix.io/2M0x . It's similar to what is in LOL but closer to a clojure-like anonymous function definition. I find the shortcut useful and code written with it clearer. However it doesn't work across package boundaries, just like any unhygienic code doesn't seem to
2021-01-14T14:35:59Z fanta1 quit (Quit: fanta1)
2021-01-14T14:36:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T14:37:32Z xificurC: looking into the LOL codebase I see the same issues, the unhygienic symbols `a1` `a2` etc don't solve this issue. I wonder why are these books given such high praise then, when you take some code from it and use it in a standard way, failing immediately
2021-01-14T14:37:38Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T14:38:51Z catalinbostan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-01-14T14:39:00Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:39:26Z catalinbostan joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:40:12Z beach: xificurC: On Lisp is good for things like computations done at macro-expansion time, but not for anaphoric macros.
2021-01-14T14:40:38Z xificurC: beach and your thoughts on LOL?
2021-01-14T14:40:50Z beach: I haven't read it.  Sorry.
2021-01-14T14:41:09Z mfiano: LOL should be taken with a large grain of salt
2021-01-14T14:42:38Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T14:43:08Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T14:44:11Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:45:13Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T14:46:02Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-14T14:46:07Z shka_: wow, clouseu displays rehash threshold as a progress bar
2021-01-14T14:46:11Z shka_: how neat!
2021-01-14T14:46:55Z snits joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:48:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:48:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-14T14:48:05Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:48:30Z beach: Clouseau is a very nice program.
2021-01-14T14:48:58Z shka_: and i never can type the name properly
2021-01-14T14:49:05Z shka_: but yes, it is
2021-01-14T14:50:24Z beach: I never use the SLIME inspector anymore.
2021-01-14T14:51:28Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:51:41Z xificurC: mfiano the book went really hardcore into some custom closure-based OO design and I didn't really understand why would one want to do that instead of using CLOS. The macros were interesting and the sorting networks too
2021-01-14T14:51:44Z scymtym: shka_: inspect a complex number :)
2021-01-14T14:52:15Z beach: xificurC: One absolutely wouldn't want to do that.
2021-01-14T14:52:35Z beach: ... closure-based OO design that is.
2021-01-14T14:53:07Z _death: xificurC: I would advise not using such macros in CL.. but in your particular, the issue likely stems from interning symbols in the current package where the reader macro is expanded (which is likely what you want) but the expansion refers to symbol (% %1) interned when the reader macro is defined.. so you should use the ones you interned instead
2021-01-14T14:53:13Z shka_: scymtym: cool
2021-01-14T14:53:42Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-14T14:53:43Z _death: *symbols
2021-01-14T14:54:12Z shka_: xificurC: anaphoric macros have the use case, really
2021-01-14T14:54:26Z beach: shka_: Nah! :)
2021-01-14T14:54:36Z shka_: they do!
2021-01-14T14:54:43Z shka_: just don't reinvent the wheel
2021-01-14T14:55:12Z frodef: maybe for very application-specific things, where words have very particular meanings.
2021-01-14T14:55:37Z shka_: cl-ds:xpr is an anaphoric macro
2021-01-14T14:55:45Z shka_: it is quite useful
2021-01-14T14:56:03Z shka_: it is used to define lazy sequences
2021-01-14T14:57:00Z shka_: works by writing recursive-like code
2021-01-14T14:57:39Z heisig sees Clouseau's representation of complex numbers and goes on to rebind `C-c i'.
2021-01-14T14:57:55Z shka_: heisig: HOW DO I DO THAT?
2021-01-14T14:57:56Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-14T14:58:02Z shka_: i don't know emacs very well
2021-01-14T14:58:17Z xificurC: I guess the number of APL fans here is very close to 0. Anything that allows expressing yourself more concisely is worth consideration
2021-01-14T14:58:17Z shka_: but i wanted to do it for a few weeks now :P
2021-01-14T14:58:37Z xificurC: you just have to be careful not to reinvent perl
2021-01-14T14:58:45Z shka_: xificurC: not exactly zero
2021-01-14T14:59:16Z xificurC: shka_ I said close to 0. I see at least 1 familiar name in the channel
2021-01-14T14:59:46Z shka_: but lisp macros need to be done really well in order to be so useful
2021-01-14T14:59:52Z shka_: like, in the general case
2021-01-14T15:01:28Z shka_: and writing macros ad hock leads to macros that are used just once
2021-01-14T15:01:32Z shka_: and this is bad
2021-01-14T15:02:58Z xificurC: shka_  good or bad is subjective to your use case
2021-01-14T15:03:13Z mfiano: It's mostly a book about "Hey, look at what macros can do", but the very opinionated coding style that ignores conventions and the use of anaphors make it very rare you will ever see code like this in the real world.
2021-01-14T15:03:28Z mfiano: Common Lisp code, that is.
2021-01-14T15:07:16Z xificurC: like this? https://github.com/thephoeron/let-over-lambda/blob/master/let-over-lambda.lisp :)
2021-01-14T15:08:12Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-14T15:11:54Z aeth: xificurC: Lexical closures are the only true way of doing encapsulation that's not just by convention (I say this, but now someone might think of something more obscure). Lexical scope is so encapsulated that lexical variables might not actually exist for things like debuggers without (optimize (debug 3))
2021-01-14T15:12:12Z shka_: gosh, i guess heisig won't tell me
2021-01-14T15:12:16Z aeth: xificurC: So you could probably come up with a very niche situation where you need to do that. Very niche.
2021-01-14T15:12:43Z Xach: shka_: macrolet is its own thing
2021-01-14T15:13:20Z shka_: Xach: ?
2021-01-14T15:13:28Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T15:13:51Z Xach: shka_: ad hoc, single-use-ish macros with macrolet can be fun
2021-01-14T15:15:18Z shka_: oh, ok
2021-01-14T15:15:24Z shka_: agreed
2021-01-14T15:15:52Z xificurC: aeth I actually loathe enforced encapsulation that cannot be broken. In the few years I work on the JVM there have been several bugs in 3rd party libraries that I was close to unable to overcome because of it. I think we're all adults and know the risk of using internal, subject-to-change parts of a library.
2021-01-14T15:16:16Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-14T15:16:41Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-14T15:19:16Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T15:20:36Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T15:20:49Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-14T15:20:50Z heisig: shka_: I am still experimenting.  I will post my solution here as soon as it is presentable.
2021-01-14T15:20:51Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-14T15:22:02Z HDurer quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T15:22:21Z HDurer joined #lisp
2021-01-14T15:22:25Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T15:24:20Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-14T15:24:42Z shka_: heisig: thanks!
2021-01-14T15:28:08Z scymtym: heisig: one piece of the puzzle will probably involve updating the content of a persistent inspector window. one way to do that is (defvar *inspector* (nth-value 1 (clouseau:inspect INITIAL-VALUE :new-process t))) and later (setf (clouseau:root-object *inspector* :run-hook-p t) NEW-VALUE)
2021-01-14T15:29:41Z shka_: hmmm, it seems that the minimal size of sbcl hash-table is 7?
2021-01-14T15:29:58Z shka_: this gonna cost me some memory
2021-01-14T15:30:05Z shka_: maybe i can figure something out
2021-01-14T15:30:55Z flip214: shka_: make yourself a global readonly empty hashtable?
2021-01-14T15:32:25Z shka_: flip214: nah, i have other idea
2021-01-14T15:34:45Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-14T15:37:00Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-14T15:45:54Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-14T15:50:21Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-14T15:58:56Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T16:00:35Z kapil_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T16:02:51Z kapil_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:02:58Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:04:15Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:08:13Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:13:56Z Madvax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T16:13:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T16:16:02Z Madvax joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:17:09Z heisig: shka_: Here is my first draft: https://gist.github.com/marcoheisig/ddf35ad94e51fe9c3e5980759ef0fb70
2021-01-14T16:17:22Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T16:17:38Z heisig: scymtym: Thanks for helping!  That was exactly what I needed.
2021-01-14T16:17:50Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:19:07Z scymtym: heisig: sure. you could use a prefix argument to force inspecting in a new window
2021-01-14T16:21:43Z shka_: awesome
2021-01-14T16:22:04Z shka_: let me try this out
2021-01-14T16:22:22Z heisig: scymtym: Yes, there are plenty of potential tweaks.  Also, I should overload more than just `C-c i'.  But that was already enough of a digression for one day.
2021-01-14T16:22:35Z _death: slime has a slime-prefix-map
2021-01-14T16:22:46Z lotuseater quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T16:24:51Z heisig: Also, I am not exactly proud of referencing a symbol from clim-internals.  Is there a better way to check whether a frame is still alive?
2021-01-14T16:28:44Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-14T16:31:11Z kapil_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:33:59Z sm2n_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:34:04Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T16:41:16Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T16:41:55Z phoe6 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:45:03Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:47:14Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:47:51Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:49:48Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T16:49:49Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-14T16:51:54Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T16:51:57Z scymtym: heisig: maybe http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-5.html#_1560 ? the states are defined at the top of the page
2021-01-14T16:54:15Z brandflake11 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:54:19Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T16:54:22Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T16:55:49Z parjanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T16:57:23Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:03:13Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:07:48Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T17:09:19Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:09:38Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:10:04Z adlai joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:11:22Z adlai: Oh boy, here I go bearing bad news again! ... if anyone both industrious and stupid wants to volunteer to maintain yet another library slipping towards gitrot, it appears that Anaphora has been soft-abandoned.
2021-01-14T17:12:00Z adlai: [ as hinted by the maintainer, at https://github.com/tokenrove/anaphora/pull/10#issuecomment-757917329 ]
2021-01-14T17:13:41Z adlai has anaphoric macros all over scalpl, even occasionally wrote a few of his own, although already has the volunteer hands more than full with wondering wtf to do about chanl's brokenness, an issue that blocks returning scalpl to official inclusion in various automated distributions.
2021-01-14T17:16:37Z adlai: while we're on bad news of abandonment: Henry Baker's paper archive has gone offline, apparently along with the entire webserver that hosted it. Wikipedia is already linking to https://web.archive.org/web/20200212080133/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ although I do wonder whether anyone has available an archive of just the signal, to save others the trouble of sifting through HTML noise.
2021-01-14T17:17:07Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:17:44Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-14T17:18:38Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T17:18:46Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T17:19:32Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T17:20:39Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:21:27Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:24:10Z secretmyth joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:25:23Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:25:23Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-14T17:25:23Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:30:33Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:31:52Z jackdaniel: you know what would be cool? displacing (unsigned-byte 8) array to (unsigned-byte 32) so first four elements in the former go through the first element in the latter
2021-01-14T17:31:58Z jackdaniel: I suppose that wouldn't be very lispy though
2021-01-14T17:32:32Z beach: Could be quite useful though.
2021-01-14T17:34:16Z jackdaniel: that's true
2021-01-14T17:34:58Z jackdaniel: lispm had that feature (according to clx)
2021-01-14T17:35:21Z adlai: isn't that merely a way to fuzz out endianness and word size?
2021-01-14T17:36:24Z aeth: Another thing CL is missing that implementations could add is optimized heterogeneous 2D/3D/etc arrays.
2021-01-14T17:36:37Z aeth: If there's a reasonable way to describe the :element-type for such arrays, I guess
2021-01-14T17:37:04Z aeth: so e.g. an array where every row looks like: single-float (unsigned-byte 8) double-float (unsigned-byte 32)
2021-01-14T17:37:50Z aeth: If it could reasonably be done as an extension, it would be compatible with portable CL since it'd just be a regular T array for those other implementations
2021-01-14T17:38:59Z jackdaniel: I'm rewriting McCLIM clx renderer to always use xrender extension: https://i.imgur.com/3Kb4gmH.png ; that's why I've asked (I can't simply "cast" array even when I know that bytes are in correct order)
2021-01-14T17:39:17Z jackdaniel: well, not asked but asserted that it would be cool feature
2021-01-14T17:40:29Z adlai: aeth: you can probably get quite close to that with an element-type of a struct.
2021-01-14T17:40:44Z adlai has not checked which compilers can unbox those
2021-01-14T17:41:44Z adlai: however, provided that the array is an unboxed array of structs with unboxed immediates, that could have quite low overhead, if you have lots of state per cell.
2021-01-14T17:41:48Z aeth: adlai: you can get close if you put a bunch of different homogeneous arrays inside of a struct
2021-01-14T17:42:06Z adlai: isn't that the exact opposite of what you said earlier?
2021-01-14T17:42:27Z adlai: you wanted locality consistent with coordinates.
2021-01-14T17:42:57Z aeth: adlai: you can't have an element type of a struct, that's just going to be T, and semantically speaking, it's not going to work to have an array of a mutable element like a struct work in a specialized way.
2021-01-14T17:43:31Z aeth: Whereas what I described would basically be like structs if you wrote the right kind of accessors, but without the semantic problems, although it would kind of mess with the concept of initial-element
2021-01-14T17:45:48Z aeth: An array row of (single-float (unsigned-byte 8) double-float (unsigned-byte 32)) is an array row of things that can all be an upgraded-array-element-type in arrays in reasonable implementations, just not all in the same array at the same time.
2021-01-14T17:46:12Z adlai: well, if all your immediates are numeric, you can probably fake it quite closely with jackdaniel's trick and possibly a bit of ldb and decode-float gluearbage.
2021-01-14T17:46:25Z aeth: well, no, because floats are special
2021-01-14T17:46:31Z aeth: at the hardware level
2021-01-14T17:46:43Z aeth: The C illusion is an illusion.
2021-01-14T17:46:59Z adlai: thus, "fake it", i.e. the compiler would store unboxed fixnums.
2021-01-14T17:47:24Z adlai leaves off pursuing this optimization, however mature it may be... enjoy your bit-twiddling!
2021-01-14T17:47:45Z aeth: Well, several problems there. First, arrays can store more than fixnums. An implementation could reasonably store unboxed double-float (larger than a fixnum), (unsigned-byte 64), or (signed-byte 64) in 64-bit implementations.
2021-01-14T17:48:09Z aeth: In fact, if you're working with such numbers, you're probably better off overusing mutable arrays to avoid boxing
2021-01-14T17:48:20Z aeth: (At least, potentially. Implementation-specific.)
2021-01-14T17:48:59Z aeth: Second, this would be for very high-performance things, so converting an integer to a float each time might have a cost. Even a tiny cost can add up. I had a 3D renderer in mind when I was thinking about this.
2021-01-14T17:49:35Z adlai: clhs integer-decode-float
2021-01-14T17:49:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_fl.htm
2021-01-14T17:50:00Z jackdaniel: I feel like in this meme with a pigeon (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/annoyed-bird), laters \o
2021-01-14T17:50:29Z adlai: that would be the correct function, not decode-float, since the latter doesn't actually rescue you from the floatsam!
2021-01-14T17:51:16Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T17:54:19Z galex-713_ quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-14T17:54:27Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:54:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T17:54:52Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:55:58Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:56:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T17:56:52Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T17:57:12Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-14T17:57:22Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:00:56Z Dizidentu quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-14T18:00:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T18:01:30Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:02:12Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:04:58Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T18:08:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T18:09:25Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:12:45Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T18:14:04Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-14T18:18:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T18:19:01Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:19:08Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-14T18:19:12Z ramus joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:19:39Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:21:27Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:22:11Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-14T18:24:40Z brandflake11 left #lisp
2021-01-14T18:26:57Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:29:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T18:29:53Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:32:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T18:32:17Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:33:54Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:36:45Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:36:57Z Dizidentu joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:38:05Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T18:38:19Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:38:59Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:40:06Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-14T18:44:42Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:45:23Z lotuseat` joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:46:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T18:47:22Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:47:23Z lotuseat` is now known as lotuseater`
2021-01-14T18:47:41Z lotuseater quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T18:48:02Z lotuseater` is now known as lotuseater
2021-01-14T18:54:11Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T18:54:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:56:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T18:57:11Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T18:59:19Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T18:59:43Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:00:10Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-14T19:02:37Z jackdaniel: looking at ecl code it seems pretty much doable - i.e by relaxing the displace requirement to allow an array with a /compatible/ element type
2021-01-14T19:03:27Z jackdaniel: there is also a cute internal function: (si:array-raw-data array) that returns an array with the element type byte8 (works on all arrays with the specialized element type)
2021-01-14T19:04:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T19:04:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:04:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T19:04:25Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T19:04:43Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:04:56Z jackdaniel: even better, it is exported from the ext package
2021-01-14T19:06:00Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:06:41Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T19:07:42Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T19:09:21Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:11:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T19:11:49Z parjanya joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:12:23Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:14:08Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:14:28Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T19:14:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T19:14:44Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:15:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:15:08Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-14T19:15:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:15:33Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T19:17:08Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:18:20Z xificurC quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-14T19:18:48Z xificurC joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:18:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T19:19:23Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:20:24Z Dizidentu quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-14T19:21:45Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:23:12Z matryoshka` joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:23:21Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T19:23:23Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T19:23:45Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T19:23:51Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:25:07Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T19:25:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T19:25:35Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:26:21Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:27:01Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:30:43Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T19:33:06Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:34:19Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:35:51Z brandflake11 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:37:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T19:38:44Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:39:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:39:14Z flatheap joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:39:49Z xanderle_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T19:43:36Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T19:45:03Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:51:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T19:53:32Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T20:01:14Z rogersm_ quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-14T20:01:36Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T20:02:27Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-14T20:03:32Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:04:11Z frgo quit
2021-01-14T20:06:46Z xanderle quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T20:07:31Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:08:07Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:12:22Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T20:14:10Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:15:25Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:21:42Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:22:28Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-14T20:27:05Z andreyorst quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T20:27:29Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:27:40Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T20:29:27Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:32:13Z xanderle_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:34:25Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T20:34:58Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T20:35:41Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:39:40Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T20:39:40Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T20:41:07Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:43:08Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T20:43:13Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:43:31Z cage_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T20:45:12Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-14T20:45:28Z frgo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:48:57Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T20:52:25Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T20:52:32Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T20:54:43Z catalinbostan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T20:54:44Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T20:56:05Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-14T20:56:50Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-14T20:59:21Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:01:19Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:01:38Z brandflake11 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-14T21:01:52Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:05:54Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T21:06:10Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:06:41Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T21:08:03Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T21:10:12Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-14T21:12:55Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T21:17:33Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T21:23:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:24:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:26:39Z andreyorst_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T21:30:49Z xificurC quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-14T21:30:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:31:41Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:32:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:32:25Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:32:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:32:47Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:33:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:34:12Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:36:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:36:46Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:37:17Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:39:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:39:34Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:39:44Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-14T21:40:06Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:40:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:40:20Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:40:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:43:25Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:43:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:43:50Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:45:12Z surabax_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:45:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:46:56Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T21:47:05Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:47:51Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:48:07Z surabax__ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:49:03Z secretmyth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-14T21:49:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:50:01Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T21:51:25Z surabax_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T21:51:28Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T21:51:29Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:51:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:51:49Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:51:49Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:51:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:52:04Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:53:35Z surabax_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:53:35Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:54:13Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T21:54:15Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:54:22Z surabax__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T21:56:36Z surabax__ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:56:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:57:01Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T21:57:07Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T21:59:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T21:59:49Z surabax_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:00:04Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:00:07Z surabax_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:00:30Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T22:02:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:03:19Z surabax__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:03:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T22:03:41Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:04:04Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:04:33Z surabax__ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:04:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T22:05:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:06:07Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:06:17Z surabax_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:07:07Z surabax_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:07:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T22:07:30Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:07:47Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:08:37Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:08:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T22:09:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:10:16Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:10:57Z surabax__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:10:57Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T22:11:38Z surabax__ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:11:59Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:11:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T22:12:04Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:12:22Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:12:49Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-14T22:12:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T22:13:17Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:13:25Z surabax_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:14:27Z surabax_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:15:37Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:17:51Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:17:57Z surabax__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:20:48Z surabax__ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:20:52Z surabax_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:22:51Z surabax__ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-14T22:23:37Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:30:24Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:30:42Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:34:36Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:35:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:39:49Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:42:01Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:45:45Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:48:44Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:49:54Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-14T22:49:57Z snits joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:50:55Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-14T22:55:16Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-14T23:06:06Z VincentVega left #lisp
2021-01-14T23:08:02Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-14T23:08:27Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-14T23:09:41Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-14T23:09:54Z VincentVega left #lisp
2021-01-14T23:11:58Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-14T23:13:25Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T23:31:25Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-14T23:35:39Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-14T23:38:08Z frgo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-14T23:38:35Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-14T23:43:15Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-14T23:45:18Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-14T23:51:07Z HiRE joined #lisp
2021-01-14T23:54:13Z HiRE_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-14T23:59:31Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-14T23:59:50Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:00:59Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z Josh_2 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z xanderle_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z attila_lendvai quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z lotuseater quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z jonatack quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z sm2n_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z sjl quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z orivej quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z python476 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z Cthulhux quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z Demosthenex quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z Posterdati quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z wigust quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z mathrick quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z jurov_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z jprajzne quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z troydm quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z datajerk quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z hvxgr quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z norserob quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z fitzsim quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z thecoffemaker quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z mister_m quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z froggey quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z nullheroes quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z anticrisis quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z iskander quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z amb007 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z guaqua quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z caret quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:27Z Bike quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z saturn2 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z borodust quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z nitrix quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z leo_song quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z theBlackDragon quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z bmansurov_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z nullman quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z gabot quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z specbot quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z pyc quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z deltab quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z charles` quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z phoe6 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z mindCrime quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z ralt quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z mgxm quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z housel quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z voidlily quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z lottaquestions_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z midre quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z kini quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z yonkunas quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z _whitelogger quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z dyelar quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z easye quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z dxtr quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z drot quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z jerme_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z mjl quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z drmeister quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z stylewarning quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z yottabyte quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z gko quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z Patzy quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z summerisle quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z sveit quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z Balooga quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z entel quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z femi quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:28Z rvirding quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z ilmu quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z cpt_nemo quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z knobo quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z sbryant quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z ey[m]1 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z arichiardi[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z MrtnDk[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z loke[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z quanta[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z exit70[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z santiagopim[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z ThaEwat quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:29Z mgr_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T00:03:48Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:04:21Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T00:04:31Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:04:40Z deltab joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:21Z tessier joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:35Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z phoe6 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z mgxm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z housel joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z voidlily joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z midre joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z yonkunas joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z dyelar joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z easye joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z dxtr joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z drot joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z jerme_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z mjl joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z drmeister joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z ilmu joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z stylewarning joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z yottabyte joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z gko joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z Patzy joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z summerisle joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z sveit joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z Balooga joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z entel joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z femi joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z rvirding joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z cpt_nemo joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z knobo joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:47Z sbryant joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:48Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:48Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:48Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:48Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:48Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:48Z exit70[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:48Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:05:48Z mgr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z xanderle_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z sm2n_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z guaqua joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z python476 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z Cthulhux joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z Demosthenex joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z Posterdati joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z saturn2 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z wigust joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z borodust joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z nitrix joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z leo_song joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z jurov_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z datajerk joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z bmansurov_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z hvxgr joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z norserob joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z gabot joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z fitzsim joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z specbot joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z pyc joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z mister_m joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z froggey joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:37Z nullheroes joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:06:46Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:06:46Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:06:46Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:06:46Z santiagopim[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:06:47Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-15T00:06:48Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:06:48Z ey[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:08Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:09Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:09Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:10Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:12Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-15T00:07:15Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:18Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:19Z Lolicon[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:21Z entel quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:24Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:25Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:26Z exit70[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:30Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:30Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:30Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:30Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:37Z jdormit[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:37Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:37Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:37Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:50Z keizerrijk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:50Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:50Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:07:50Z cairn quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:08:00Z tolko-zhenshiny[ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:08:00Z malaclyps_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:08:18Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-15T00:09:11Z clone_of_saturn joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:09:14Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:09:15Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:09:23Z jonas[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:09:27Z caret_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:09:29Z anticrisis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:09:36Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:09:38Z yottabyte quit (Ping timeout: 274 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:09:38Z Balooga quit (Ping timeout: 274 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:09:38Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 274 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:09:56Z rvirding joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:10:04Z saturn2 quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T00:10:05Z anticrisis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T00:10:05Z caret quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T00:10:14Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:10:14Z stylewarning quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:10:21Z yottabyte joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:10:22Z Balooga joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:11:20Z entel joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:11:41Z drmeister joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:12:39Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-15T00:12:53Z stylewarning joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:13:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:13:44Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:15:14Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:15:52Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:17:06Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:18:23Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:19:53Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:21:08Z bilegeek_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:21:56Z bilegeek quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T00:23:17Z bilegeek_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T00:25:07Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:26:59Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-15T00:33:08Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:33:34Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:33:52Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:33:56Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:34:00Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T00:34:00Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:35:35Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:37:38Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:38:37Z tessier joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:42:12Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:42:12Z Lolicon[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:42:12Z ey[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:43:10Z malaclyps_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:43:17Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:43:48Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:43:48Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:44:10Z cairn joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:44:24Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:44:43Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T00:46:36Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:46:51Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:47:19Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:51:24Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:51:25Z malaclyps_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:51:36Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:51:42Z cairn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:51:55Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:51:57Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:51:57Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:51:57Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:51:57Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:52:11Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-15T00:52:16Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:52:18Z ey[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:52:28Z Lolicon[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:52:28Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:52:32Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:52:38Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:52:38Z santiagopim[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T00:53:37Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:54:31Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T00:54:38Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T00:54:44Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-15T00:55:12Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-15T00:59:25Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:00:13Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T01:02:30Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:08:38Z lotuseater: if i type in SLIME (defmethod initialize-instance ...) there are shown at the bottom many keywords, what exactly affects that?
2021-01-15T01:09:13Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:13:25Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T01:13:45Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:18:22Z nicktick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T01:21:51Z phantomics joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:39Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:39Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:39Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:39Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:39Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:39Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:39Z cairn joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:39Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:39Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:39Z exit70[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:40Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:40Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:40Z malaclyps_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:40Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:40Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:40Z backinaweek[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:40Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:40Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:40Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:40Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:40Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:40Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:45Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:45Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:45Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:45Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:45Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:46Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:46Z ey[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:47Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:47Z keizerrijk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:24:48Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:25:58Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-15T01:27:05Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:27:20Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:27:42Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:34:46Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:36:53Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-15T01:37:00Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T01:38:44Z loli joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:40:15Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-15T01:47:28Z joast joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:48:12Z Bike: i think slime just shows all keywords that are accepted by any initialize-instance method. possibly slot initargs as well?
2021-01-15T01:48:13Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T01:48:48Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:52:45Z todun joined #lisp
2021-01-15T01:53:13Z todun left #lisp
2021-01-15T01:57:35Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T01:58:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T02:00:22Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp
2021-01-15T02:02:37Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T02:03:32Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T02:04:00Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T02:07:50Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-15T02:08:51Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-15T02:10:01Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T02:23:49Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-15T02:24:27Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-15T02:29:26Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T02:51:44Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-15T02:54:28Z seok joined #lisp
2021-01-15T02:55:08Z seok: if I compile a lisp program and give it to someone else, can they try to figure out what objects are internally by reading memory?
2021-01-15T02:55:30Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T02:55:55Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T02:57:43Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-15T02:57:52Z Bike: Sure. Won't be easy though.
2021-01-15T02:58:04Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-15T02:59:01Z seok: oh :o
2021-01-15T02:59:47Z seok: so i probably shouldnt make a variable with my ssn as string, compile, then ship it?
2021-01-15T02:59:54Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-15T03:01:32Z Bike: i don't think that's a good idea regardless of what programming language you're using, no
2021-01-15T03:01:34Z Alfr: seok, what problem are you trying to solve? Though it likely is better suited for the cafe.
2021-01-15T03:01:36Z edgar-rft: seok: hat sounds like a bad idea in *any* programming language, not only Lisp
2021-01-15T03:01:39Z shinohai: lol k
2021-01-15T03:02:12Z seok: uh ok
2021-01-15T03:02:41Z seok: idk im looking to ship a client with sensitive data
2021-01-15T03:02:53Z seok: wondering if theres a good way to do this
2021-01-15T03:03:13Z Bike: Same stuff you'd usually use to secure data. Encryption and so on.
2021-01-15T03:03:55Z seok: but if the client is shipped with encrypted variable, it would be have to be shipped with the key too
2021-01-15T03:04:03Z seok: in that case there's no point eh?
2021-01-15T03:04:12Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T03:04:32Z Bike: "and so on" includes the security practices surrounding such things
2021-01-15T03:04:42Z seok: is that a book
2021-01-15T03:04:51Z Bike: no
2021-01-15T03:04:55Z Alfr: seok, homomorphic encryption and that what you ship must only operate on the blobs. But I don't know of any efficient scheme or even if what you want to do is possible with what little we currently have.
2021-01-15T03:05:38Z Bike: of course we have efficient ways to send data securely
2021-01-15T03:06:07Z Bike: you could do some key exchange to establish a secure channel and then send your ssn or whatever that way
2021-01-15T03:06:22Z seok: yeah ssn was a dummy example xd
2021-01-15T03:06:24Z Bike: but this isn't really a lisp specific topic
2021-01-15T03:06:46Z seok: sorry :x i thought there might be a compile specific solution
2021-01-15T03:06:48Z seok: guess not
2021-01-15T03:09:58Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T03:14:25Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T03:14:34Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-15T03:15:06Z adlai left #lisp
2021-01-15T03:15:32Z clone_of_saturn is now known as saturn2
2021-01-15T03:29:15Z tinga joined #lisp
2021-01-15T03:33:32Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-15T03:34:23Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T03:35:12Z tinga: Hi. How do I bind a value in the top level of a package, so that changes to the code (reloading the file) can have it be a different value?
2021-01-15T03:35:34Z tinga: (defconstant foo 123) in SBCL will not allow foo to be defined anything else on subsequent loads.
2021-01-15T03:36:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T03:36:57Z aeth: tinga: defparameter or defvar
2021-01-15T03:36:59Z tinga: I feel like I'd be OK with setf not working on foo. There's defparameter for those, after all. But the SBCL behaviour seems to make it impossible to develop the program without a restart?
2021-01-15T03:37:10Z tinga: Ah, didn't know about defvar
2021-01-15T03:39:00Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-15T03:39:53Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-15T03:40:11Z tinga: Somehow ANSI Common Lisp decides to only introduce defvar way later.
2021-01-15T03:40:56Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T03:41:39Z tinga: Why is this false? I thought `equal` does structural equality?: (equal (make-array '(2 3) :initial-element "hi") (make-array '(2 3) :initial-element "hi"))
2021-01-15T03:41:43Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-15T03:41:54Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-15T03:41:54Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-15T03:41:54Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-15T03:42:50Z tinga: same for (equal (vector 1) (vector 1))
2021-01-15T03:43:00Z Alfr: tinga, it behaves like eq for arrays, except strings and bit-vectors.
2021-01-15T03:43:05Z Dizidentu joined #lisp
2021-01-15T03:43:14Z tinga: Why?
2021-01-15T03:43:40Z Alfr: What why? The spec simply says so.
2021-01-15T03:44:20Z tinga: Why as in what's the reasoning behind it, what is it good for?
2021-01-15T03:47:00Z Alfr: tinga, have a look at equalp, tough it's not case sensitive for string. If that doesn't fit your bill, simply write your own predicate.
2021-01-15T03:48:25Z tinga: k, thanks
2021-01-15T03:48:57Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T03:49:05Z mrcom_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T03:49:35Z Dizidentu quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-15T03:58:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T03:59:09Z tinga: How do I name variables (function arguments) that are never used? SBCL warns me even if I prefix them with an underscore.
2021-01-15T04:01:33Z Bike: you should use an ignore declaration.
2021-01-15T04:01:43Z Bike: (defun foo (x) (declare (ignore x)) nil)
2021-01-15T04:02:32Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T04:02:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-15T04:03:08Z charles`: Good morning to beach
2021-01-15T04:03:52Z pfdietz: Or an ignorable declaration.   Or, if it's a required parameter to a method, a T specializer.
2021-01-15T04:04:25Z pfdietz: (defmethod foo ((x C) (y t)) x) ;; no warning
2021-01-15T04:04:38Z pfdietz: (defmethod foo ((x C) y) x) ;; warning
2021-01-15T04:04:38Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-15T04:05:17Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T04:06:05Z tinga: Thanks
2021-01-15T04:06:05Z beach: tinga: The question about the equality predicates comes up regularly.  The short answer is that there is no universal solution and Common Lisp is proposing a few that are frequently used.  But in the general case, you need to come up with your own.
2021-01-15T04:06:13Z equwal joined #lisp
2021-01-15T04:06:47Z equwal: Good morning!
2021-01-15T04:06:58Z beach: Hello equwal.
2021-01-15T04:07:02Z tinga: OK. I guess come up with your own would make most sence via CLOS; I was hoping for some standard protocol.
2021-01-15T04:07:11Z tinga: sense
2021-01-15T04:07:39Z beach: tinga: I suggest you read Kent Pitmans page on copying and equality.
2021-01-15T04:07:57Z tinga: OK thanks, will have a look
2021-01-15T04:08:13Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T04:09:01Z equwal: I'm not familiar with this, does it have a title?
2021-01-15T04:09:42Z beach: Let me look...
2021-01-15T04:09:57Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T04:10:31Z beach: https://nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2021-01-15T04:10:55Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T04:11:19Z equwal: That has a great url, in my opinion, though it needs a slightly different spelling
2021-01-15T04:15:01Z tinga: Nice discussion here, too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2573944
2021-01-15T04:15:49Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T04:16:09Z equwal: I hearby declare 'equwal' the name of the 'correct' general equality test.
2021-01-15T04:20:19Z tinga: substitute https://archive.is/mj4If for http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
2021-01-15T04:21:45Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T04:23:22Z ppbitb quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-15T04:25:07Z beach: Baker is making a lot of strange claims in the first paragraph there.
2021-01-15T04:25:34Z beach: For one thing, he is using the wrong terminology when he says "call by value".
2021-01-15T04:26:02Z beach: And I don't think his suggestion will resolve the issue of multiple equality predicates.
2021-01-15T04:37:34Z equwal quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T04:37:43Z adam4567 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T04:38:25Z equwal joined #lisp
2021-01-15T04:53:07Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T04:53:59Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-15T04:56:30Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T04:56:53Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-15T05:00:43Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-15T05:02:02Z andreyorst is now known as andreyorst_
2021-01-15T05:04:13Z Bike quit (Quit: sleep)
2021-01-15T05:05:41Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T05:06:08Z equwal quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T05:08:21Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-15T05:08:37Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-15T05:11:49Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T05:12:47Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T05:13:25Z astronavt: maybe a silly question, but: i just did `ros install qlot`. now what? does roswell have its own "bin" dir that i need to add to my PATH?
2021-01-15T05:16:42Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T05:16:44Z python476 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T05:18:53Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-15T05:23:22Z astronavt: ah it's under ~/.roswell/bin
2021-01-15T05:24:44Z mrcom_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-15T05:26:23Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-15T05:50:19Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-15T05:51:04Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-15T05:51:37Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T05:52:37Z mrcom_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T05:53:42Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T05:54:13Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-15T05:55:54Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T05:57:31Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-15T05:57:36Z mrcom_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-15T05:59:08Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-15T06:04:39Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-15T06:14:35Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T06:15:21Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T06:15:47Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-15T06:17:59Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-15T06:21:54Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T06:23:52Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-15T06:24:40Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T06:26:01Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T06:31:27Z galex-713 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-15T06:31:58Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T06:38:26Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-15T06:41:52Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T06:44:06Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T06:45:07Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T06:45:49Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T06:46:04Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T06:47:09Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T06:47:40Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-15T06:50:37Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T06:51:56Z froggey joined #lisp
2021-01-15T06:57:16Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T06:58:40Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T07:01:20Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:05:33Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:06:17Z C-16 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:07:25Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T07:07:43Z C-16 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T07:09:25Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:12:02Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-15T07:12:35Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:16:17Z FennecCode quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T07:17:37Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T07:18:03Z FennecCode joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:20:01Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T07:25:13Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:28:05Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:29:01Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T07:30:21Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:32:20Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:34:42Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T07:35:21Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:41:56Z catalinbostan joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:42:18Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T07:43:31Z matryoshka` quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-15T07:43:48Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:44:52Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:46:56Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T07:53:55Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:55:39Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-15T07:55:39Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-15T07:55:39Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:01:01Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:10:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T08:12:02Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T08:12:54Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:13:32Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:15:49Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T08:16:26Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:17:55Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T08:17:55Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:18:48Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:19:45Z xificurC joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:21:23Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:23:07Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:29:51Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T08:32:27Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:33:32Z mrcom_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:33:42Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T08:50:30Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-15T08:53:47Z anticrisis_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T09:00:25Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T09:02:43Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T09:06:43Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:07:15Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:07:56Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:08:28Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:09:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T09:09:29Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T09:09:34Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:09:46Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:11:10Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T09:11:22Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-15T09:14:29Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:14:35Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:18:45Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T09:24:25Z adam4567 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T09:25:44Z luna_is_here quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T09:26:27Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:32:31Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T09:33:26Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:33:26Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-15T09:33:26Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:42:13Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T09:45:15Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:45:34Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie)
2021-01-15T09:45:50Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:50:54Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T09:53:23Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie)
2021-01-15T09:53:32Z wxie1 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:54:01Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:54:01Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-15T09:54:01Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-15T09:54:32Z catalinbostan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T09:54:52Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T09:55:52Z wxie1 is now known as wxie
2021-01-15T09:59:05Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-15T10:00:29Z hendursa1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T10:08:21Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-15T10:10:25Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T10:15:23Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T10:17:37Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T10:20:06Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T10:23:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-15T10:23:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-15T10:23:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-15T10:30:43Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-15T10:33:35Z frgo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T10:35:52Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T10:36:07Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T10:37:14Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T10:39:31Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-15T10:40:17Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T10:41:35Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-15T10:55:28Z python476 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T10:57:08Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T10:59:59Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:00:12Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T11:00:12Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T11:00:12Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T11:00:12Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T11:00:12Z madage quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
2021-01-15T11:00:12Z gxt quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
2021-01-15T11:03:22Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:03:25Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:03:25Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:04:40Z OlCe` joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:06:57Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:08:39Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:08:49Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T11:09:03Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:11:06Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:14:45Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T11:16:25Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:17:43Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:21:14Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T11:25:42Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-15T11:26:35Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:31:03Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T11:32:11Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:32:24Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:34:36Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:41:50Z OlCe` quit
2021-01-15T11:42:02Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T11:42:22Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:43:06Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:44:18Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T11:45:18Z aindilis` joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:55:37Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:55:50Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-15T11:59:37Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T12:02:08Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T12:04:39Z OlCe quit
2021-01-15T12:04:41Z joaot joined #lisp
2021-01-15T12:06:51Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-15T12:11:39Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-15T12:17:15Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T12:20:33Z catalinbostan joined #lisp
2021-01-15T12:21:45Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T12:22:31Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-15T12:24:24Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T12:24:56Z VincentVega: Hmm, why does closer-mop:slot-definition-writers accept only a direct-slot-definition as an argument? What if I have a derived class and want to see writers for an inherited slot?
2021-01-15T12:27:22Z rozenglass quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T12:28:02Z jmercouris: Hi everyone, I'm having a bit of an issue with GIR
2021-01-15T12:28:02Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/48K5L8AVL
2021-01-15T12:28:25Z jmercouris: I don't understand why it cannot find that which exists, do I hvae the repository wrong? the signature wrong?
2021-01-15T12:29:06Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-15T12:29:09Z jmercouris: VincentVega: perhaps you will have to go up the inheritance tree and query the object which has the slot itself
2021-01-15T12:29:39Z jmercouris: s/object/class
2021-01-15T12:29:49Z jmercouris: well I assume classes are also objects?
2021-01-15T12:30:04Z jmercouris: I don't see why they wouldn't be...
2021-01-15T12:31:00Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-15T12:32:00Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T12:32:10Z VincentVega: jmercouris: well, that could be a solution, but I am wondering what's the reason for this, because it's weird to see this work
2021-01-15T12:32:12Z VincentVega: (c2mop:slot-definition-writers (first (c2mop:class-direct-slots (find-class class-name))))
2021-01-15T12:32:16Z VincentVega: but not this
2021-01-15T12:32:22Z VincentVega: (c2mop:slot-definition-writers (first (c2mop:class-slots (find-class class-name))))
2021-01-15T12:32:40Z jmercouris: I'm not sure what the rationale behind it is I am afraid
2021-01-15T12:32:53Z jmercouris: maybe the slots are referenced to the original object or something
2021-01-15T12:32:56Z jmercouris: s/object/class
2021-01-15T12:33:10Z jmercouris: and that way when you change something in a inherited class it updates in its descendants
2021-01-15T12:33:14Z jmercouris: purely a guess of course
2021-01-15T12:33:56Z jmercouris: my other guess is that this behavior is due to an implementation detail of CLOS within most implementations
2021-01-15T12:34:43Z VincentVega: hmmm
2021-01-15T12:35:39Z VincentVega: but walking up the inheritence tree won't give me the effective list of writers/readers of the derived class unless I manually merge and that's a bother
2021-01-15T12:36:03Z jmercouris: VincentVega: what is your ultimate goal in doing this
2021-01-15T12:36:06Z jmercouris: perhaps we can solve it another way
2021-01-15T12:36:44Z VincentVega: I am generating :before methods for writers of those slots which invalidate cache of other slots
2021-01-15T12:37:11Z jmercouris: hmmm
2021-01-15T12:37:26Z jmercouris: I don't think there is another way
2021-01-15T12:37:39Z jmercouris: because you need have access to all writers
2021-01-15T12:37:45Z VincentVega: yeah, I gotta have the wiretrs : )
2021-01-15T12:38:34Z jmercouris: maybe you could make an instance of an object and inspect that more easily than the classes
2021-01-15T12:38:48Z jmercouris: and then at runtime generate the new methods
2021-01-15T12:39:26Z VincentVega: i don't think it would even have to be runtime w/ eval-when :compile-toplevel, right?
2021-01-15T12:39:34Z VincentVega: but I will look for a more direct approach first
2021-01-15T12:39:53Z jmercouris: good luck, hopefully someone else has better ideas than me
2021-01-15T12:40:12Z VincentVega: thanks anyway : )
2021-01-15T12:52:40Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-15T12:53:24Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-15T12:58:41Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-15T12:59:08Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:06:03Z igemnace quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T13:06:41Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-15T13:08:46Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:12:12Z mfiano: jmercouris: I think you have a slight mistake
2021-01-15T13:13:21Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:14:52Z devon: pjb: Earlier you mentioned a C to CL compiler…
2021-01-15T13:15:57Z mfiano: Ignore me. I would dig into GIR's hash table and see what it expects
2021-01-15T13:23:47Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T13:23:59Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:24:34Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T13:24:46Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:25:22Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T13:25:33Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:26:09Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T13:26:20Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:26:57Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T13:27:09Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:27:44Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T13:27:55Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:28:08Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:28:31Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T13:29:07Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:30:13Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T13:31:18Z jmercouris: mfiano: that is what I am doing, but it is not exactly the most cooperative interface...
2021-01-15T13:33:23Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-15T13:33:49Z tfb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T13:38:58Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:40:52Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:41:11Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:46:48Z mfiano: I feel your pain. Just looking at those APIs reminds me why I declined the offer...
2021-01-15T13:46:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T13:48:32Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:53:09Z ym joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:53:26Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-15T13:55:40Z seok quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-15T13:55:41Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T13:56:17Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-15T13:56:31Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T13:57:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T13:58:28Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:00:15Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:00:18Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:02:04Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T14:02:25Z caret_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T14:02:44Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T14:02:45Z caret_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:03:09Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T14:03:20Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:04:03Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T14:04:16Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:04:18Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T14:04:29Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:05:06Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T14:05:18Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:05:53Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T14:06:04Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:06:40Z tfb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T14:06:41Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:07:19Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:11:46Z tfb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T14:13:30Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T14:14:29Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-15T14:14:47Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:18:02Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:21:52Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:21:58Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-15T14:22:16Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T14:23:05Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T14:23:39Z Iolo joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:28:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T14:28:17Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T14:28:42Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:28:57Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:30:15Z slyrus joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:30:59Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:38:02Z leo_song joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:38:36Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:39:18Z slyrus quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T14:40:14Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T14:40:55Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T14:41:16Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:42:01Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-15T14:42:34Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T14:42:51Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:44:37Z caret_ is now known as caret
2021-01-15T14:45:24Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-15T14:47:37Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:49:08Z caret quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T14:49:24Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:49:45Z caret quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T14:49:47Z rozenglass quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T14:50:09Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:52:37Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:52:51Z Smoon joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:52:57Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T14:54:05Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:55:10Z rozenglass quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T14:55:30Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:56:13Z matryoshka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T14:56:36Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:56:55Z rozenglass quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T14:57:11Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-15T14:58:45Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T15:02:30Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:02:44Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:03:02Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T15:11:58Z tfb quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T15:12:43Z rtypo quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-15T15:17:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T15:17:43Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:18:18Z tfb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:18:20Z tfb quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T15:18:59Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:18:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T15:19:15Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:23:26Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T15:25:15Z lottaquestions_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T15:25:40Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:25:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T15:25:51Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:25:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T15:26:39Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:26:55Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:27:47Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:28:31Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:28:32Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T15:30:26Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:31:31Z albus joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:32:41Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:32:55Z albus left #lisp
2021-01-15T15:35:57Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:36:13Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T15:36:22Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:37:13Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:37:53Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T15:38:17Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T15:38:31Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:38:36Z albusp joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:39:37Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:40:04Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T15:40:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T15:41:46Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-15T15:41:56Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:42:26Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:44:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T15:44:27Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:45:09Z Alfr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T15:45:30Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:47:26Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:48:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T15:49:00Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:51:12Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T15:55:58Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-15T15:56:14Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T15:58:14Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T16:01:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T16:01:34Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:01:46Z phoe6 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-15T16:03:21Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T16:05:00Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:06:13Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T16:06:18Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T16:06:54Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:08:08Z albusp` joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:09:33Z albusp` quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T16:13:25Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T16:15:17Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:17:50Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:22:24Z albusp left #lisp
2021-01-15T16:22:58Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:24:13Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T16:27:49Z fanta1 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:29:12Z hiroaki_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:29:44Z skapata quit (Quit: bezonas mi iom da dormo)
2021-01-15T16:30:43Z nydel joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:30:48Z nydel quit (Changing host)
2021-01-15T16:30:48Z nydel joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:34:25Z lotuseater quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T16:35:50Z albusp joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:37:13Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-15T16:39:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T16:39:26Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:41:00Z joaot quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-15T16:41:04Z albusp left #lisp
2021-01-15T16:41:26Z albusp_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:43:11Z albusp_ is now known as albusp
2021-01-15T16:46:52Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T16:47:16Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T16:47:28Z snits joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:47:41Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:48:03Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T16:50:16Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T16:50:56Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-15T16:53:09Z ppbitb joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:02:49Z bilegeek_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:04:50Z bilegeek__ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:05:26Z bilegeek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T17:07:50Z bilegeek_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T17:14:09Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T17:14:12Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:14:37Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:19:47Z rogersm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:20:13Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-15T17:23:14Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-15T17:23:55Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T17:35:59Z slyrus joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:36:00Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:36:48Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:38:01Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T17:41:32Z gareppa joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:43:42Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:43:54Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-15T17:47:33Z slyrus: shka_: how about just vellum:table instead of vellum:to-table?
2021-01-15T17:49:59Z frgo_ is now known as frgo
2021-01-15T17:53:09Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:54:10Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-15T17:54:15Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-15T17:55:27Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:57:42Z dysprosaic joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:58:06Z andreyorst quit (Quit: andreyorst)
2021-01-15T17:58:33Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-15T17:59:38Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:03:06Z gareppa quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T18:03:13Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-15T18:05:09Z Alfr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T18:05:31Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:08:00Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-15T18:10:49Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T18:11:49Z caret quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T18:12:45Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:14:19Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-15T18:14:45Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T18:16:18Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:17:10Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T18:18:31Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T18:19:27Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:19:27Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:19:37Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:20:52Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:22:46Z snits joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:23:25Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T18:25:21Z xificurC quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-15T18:29:38Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-15T18:31:13Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:33:02Z ebobby joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:35:24Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T18:35:37Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-15T18:43:52Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:45:35Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-15T18:47:00Z ebobby quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-15T18:47:58Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T18:49:22Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:50:25Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:51:18Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:52:47Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-15T18:56:35Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-15T18:59:44Z amerlyq joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:04:44Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:05:01Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T19:06:37Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:07:25Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-15T19:11:47Z bilegeek__ is now known as bilegeek
2021-01-15T19:16:14Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:16:14Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T19:16:50Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:17:32Z E38 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:18:00Z edgar-rft quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T19:25:34Z fanta1 quit (Quit: fanta1)
2021-01-15T19:27:31Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T19:28:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:28:35Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-15T19:28:55Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:29:38Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-15T19:29:59Z plxmon joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:31:36Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T19:33:16Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:33:41Z Vultyre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T19:35:19Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:35:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T19:36:24Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:36:50Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:37:42Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T19:38:23Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:38:37Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T19:38:46Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:40:46Z VincentVega: Guys, why does ,@expr doesn't want to compile here? https://pastebin.com/gqBLSd7N
2021-01-15T19:43:43Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:44:49Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-15T19:47:06Z Bike: have you tried writing out what you want without using backquote? maybe that would make it more obvious.
2021-01-15T19:47:10Z Bike: i'm not sure what you want here, though.
2021-01-15T19:47:28Z Bike: i think the problem is that commas refer to the most recent backquote, and `,@expr obviously doesn't make sense on its own.
2021-01-15T19:47:32Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:49:08Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T19:49:14Z VincentVega: I am writing a macro-writing macro and that's what I figured the problem distills to.
2021-01-15T19:49:22Z pranavats: VincentVega: Comma-at must occur within a sequence. What it does is that it splices a list into a sequence. When you write `,@expr there is nowhere to splice the value of expr.
2021-01-15T19:49:42Z Bike: what would `,@foo do? i mean like what would (let ((x '(1 2 3))) `,@x) evaluate to?
2021-01-15T19:50:02Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-15T19:50:49Z VincentVega: Bike: well I would expect `(f ,`,@expr) to simplify to `(f ,@expr), there's a comma before the backtick
2021-01-15T19:51:23Z VincentVega: but I am obviously messing up the order in which these things simplify
2021-01-15T19:51:52Z aeth: VincentVega: if you have to nest multiple `s, don't do it directly imo. Either use a FLET or write a separate DEFUN that you call from inside of the DEFMACRO (if the latter, it needs to be in another file or in an EVAL-WHEN, though)
2021-01-15T19:52:02Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T19:52:37Z VincentVega: aeth: yeah, I have some nested backticks. OK, that sounds sensible.
2021-01-15T19:53:02Z alandipert: weird that  `,@'(1 2 3) works fine
2021-01-15T19:53:11Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:53:16Z alandipert: ...for some definition of "works"
2021-01-15T19:53:53Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T19:54:04Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-15T19:54:13Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T19:54:24Z pranavats: alandipert: I get the same error (not a well formed backquote expression) with the example you gave.
2021-01-15T19:54:59Z alandipert: pranavats ah, my fault, i was accidentally in elisp. in sbcl, same error
2021-01-15T19:55:05Z VincentVega: pranavats: ok, yes, that makes sense. But I wonder why `(f ,`,@expr) just wouldn't simplify to the working `(f ,@expr) _before_ splicing
2021-01-15T19:55:21Z VincentVega: because it does without the at symbol
2021-01-15T19:55:25Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T19:55:26Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-15T19:55:55Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-15T19:58:44Z VincentVega: Bike: (let ((x '(1 2 3))) `,@x) to (let ((x '(1 2 3))) 1 2 3)?
2021-01-15T19:59:45Z Bike: i think you are confusing evaluation times. i mean, you can imagine (let ((x (foo))) `,@x) where foo is some function
2021-01-15T20:00:40Z VincentVega: then it would have to be a function available at compile time? : D
2021-01-15T20:01:19Z pranavats: VincentVega: I don't know. That is one of the two restrictions on comma-at in On Lisp. One might  look at their implementations though...
2021-01-15T20:02:26Z VincentVega: pranavats: I should probably reread that part. I am cool with an flet though, like aeth suggested, wouldn't look as hairy either.
2021-01-15T20:03:22Z pranavats: VincentVega: Sure. It's on printed page no. 87, on On Lisp.
2021-01-15T20:03:24Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:03:55Z VincentVega: pranavats: thanks : )
2021-01-15T20:06:04Z tiwEllien joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:06:30Z tiwEllien quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T20:08:53Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T20:09:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:11:26Z brandflake11 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:12:22Z brandflake11: Hey all, is there a special notation in lisp to include a list as one of the arguments of defun?
2021-01-15T20:12:52Z Xach: brandflake11: the lambda list is usually a list. and the name can be (setf <something>) for setf functions.
2021-01-15T20:13:02Z Xach: brandflake11: but i am not sure if that is what you mean
2021-01-15T20:13:48Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:13:50Z brandflake11: So I want to do this:
2021-01-15T20:13:52Z brandflake11: (defun note-arp (repetitions time-scale duration amplitude note-list)
2021-01-15T20:14:03Z brandflake11: Where note-list is always a list in the function
2021-01-15T20:14:23Z Xach: brandflake11: ok
2021-01-15T20:14:44Z Xach: what you wrote will do that so far, but you want more?
2021-01-15T20:14:56Z brandflake11: But, when I try to run the function, I get an error of the list included is not of type real
2021-01-15T20:15:25Z brandflake11: Xach: Okay, so what I did will work for defun?
2021-01-15T20:15:40Z Xach: brandflake11: sure.
2021-01-15T20:15:52Z Xach: brandflake11: and it will take exactly 5 arguments, the last of which must be a list.
2021-01-15T20:16:06Z Xach: brandflake11: but did you mean you wanted to slurp up all the trailing arguments after the fourth into a list?
2021-01-15T20:16:11Z brandflake11: Xach: Ahh, okay, it must be a different issue then. Thanks so much!
2021-01-15T20:16:30Z brandflake11: Xach: No, I wanted that argument to specifically mean a list
2021-01-15T20:16:34Z Xach: Ok
2021-01-15T20:16:59Z Xach: brandflake11: in a situation like this it would be helpful to see the code, and how you called the function, and the exact error you got when you called it
2021-01-15T20:17:05Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T20:17:28Z brandflake11: Xach: Okay, I didn't want to take advantage of the great help here, but I will put it on pastebin really quick!
2021-01-15T20:17:48Z Xach: how else are we to grow new lisp experts and dominate the world but through helping people understand things?
2021-01-15T20:19:04Z brandflake11: Xach: Thanks! :) Here is the link https://pastebin.com/U64757PS
2021-01-15T20:19:42Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T20:19:53Z brandflake11: I define the function with defun, and when I run the second (events) function, it gives me the error of '(60 61 62) not being of type real
2021-01-15T20:19:56Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:19:59Z Xach: Hmm, I don't recognize those functions. what is PROCESS?
2021-01-15T20:20:13Z brandflake11: Xach: Oh, by the way, this is common music
2021-01-15T20:20:14Z Xach: Is it similar to LOOP?
2021-01-15T20:20:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:20:42Z brandflake11: Xach: Process is like loop, but helps with realtime processing of midi and audio data.
2021-01-15T20:20:50Z brandflake11: Xach: Yes, exactly, in fact you could replace it with loop
2021-01-15T20:21:01Z Xach: with LOOP, "for i from 0 to <x>", <x> should be an integer, not a list.
2021-01-15T20:21:21Z brandflake11: Xach: Oh, so it's an error in my loop!
2021-01-15T20:21:30Z Xach: If you wanted to loop once for each item in the list, it would be someting like "from i below (length note-list)"
2021-01-15T20:22:04Z Xach: but if you want to use an element and keep a counter, it would be (loop for i from 0 for note in note-list ...)
2021-01-15T20:22:18Z Xach: I don't know if that maps to PROCESS directly, though.
2021-01-15T20:22:27Z plxmon left #lisp
2021-01-15T20:22:43Z brandflake11: Xach: It works, thanks so much!
2021-01-15T20:23:09Z brandflake11: Xach: Do you have any recommendation of becoming an expert at the (loop) function? It's syntax really gets to me sometimes!
2021-01-15T20:23:38Z Xach: brandflake11: the section in Practical Common Lisp is pretty good.
2021-01-15T20:23:54Z andreyorst_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T20:24:03Z Xach: brandflake11: i usually stick to a small number of simple components and switch to something different when it gets very complex
2021-01-15T20:24:06Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-15T20:24:42Z brandflake11: Xach: I'll look into that!
2021-01-15T20:24:57Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:25:44Z brandflake11: Xach: For loop, I try to just make C++ loop equivalents, since I'm a bit familiar with that, but I always get tripped up with the loop syntax being so different to lisp's
2021-01-15T20:26:14Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:26:28Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T20:26:32Z Xach: I think that's something to outgrow as you understand how to think directly in terms of LOOP.
2021-01-15T20:27:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T20:27:35Z brandflake11: Xach: Thanks so much for the advice and programming help!
2021-01-15T20:27:39Z dyelar joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:27:50Z pranavats: brandflake11: There are other iteration constructs in CL, —iterate and Series, to name just two—which are more lispier.
2021-01-15T20:28:31Z Xach: I haven't seen those used very much, but some people really like them.
2021-01-15T20:29:34Z brandflake11: pranavats: Are they part of a package? I don't seem to have it in my CL setup
2021-01-15T20:29:54Z Bike: those are not in the standard library, no
2021-01-15T20:30:01Z pranavats: Yes. Their packages are in quicklisp by the same name.
2021-01-15T20:30:21Z pranavats: I mean, systems.
2021-01-15T20:30:36Z brandflake11: pranavats: Ah, okay. I'll check them out later.
2021-01-15T20:31:27Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-15T20:34:47Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-15T20:35:09Z Alfr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T20:35:31Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:36:42Z aeth: brandflake11: LOOP's a bit weird because it accepts any package for its symbols, but that means that you can use keywords. So e.g. (loop :for i :from 0 :repeat 3 :do (print i))
2021-01-15T20:36:56Z aeth: I personally find that that makes it harder to make certain kinds of mistakes
2021-01-15T20:37:34Z aeth: It almost becomes like a plist. Almost. There are a few constructs where LOOP expects multiple keywords in a row, and OF-TYPE is optional for certain kinds of types (but only a few, so I always use the long form)
2021-01-15T20:38:22Z aeth: (And, of course, if it was really made up of plists, order wouldn't matter and you couldn't have duplicates.)
2021-01-15T20:38:31Z brandflake11: aeth: What do you mean by it accepts any package for its symbols? I'm not familiar with plist.
2021-01-15T20:39:16Z aeth: brandflake11: a plist is something like '(:foo 42 :bar 43 :baz 44)
2021-01-15T20:39:31Z aeth: It's very natural and Lispy and shows up all of the time, e.g. keyword arguments are plist tails
2021-01-15T20:39:34Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:40:16Z aeth: brandflake11: By "accepts any package" I mean (loop repeat 3) and (loop :repeat 3) both work, it doesn't care about the package the symbol is in. Almost every other macro will care. Third party macros typically use keywords.
2021-01-15T20:41:07Z aeth: (loop your-package::repeat 3) also works, which is probably what LOOP is doing because CL:REPEAT isn't a symbol
2021-01-15T20:41:48Z aeth: Packages are just namespaces for symbols
2021-01-15T20:48:49Z brandflake11: aeth: I see. That was a lot for me, so I am going to save this for later to see if I can come back and understand this better later. :) It's cool that you can use keywords like that in loop, I may use that to make it clearer for me!
2021-01-15T20:50:15Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:50:56Z brandflake11: aeth: And thanks for telling me about plists. That is very useful!
2021-01-15T20:52:25Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq)
2021-01-15T20:53:08Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:54:57Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:55:32Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:56:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T20:56:33Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T20:58:27Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-15T20:59:56Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T21:01:06Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-15T21:01:24Z brandflake11 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-15T21:01:45Z brandflake11 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T21:02:26Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T21:03:05Z dbotton: I have been using a deftype of keywords for enums, but curious is there a better or more official way?
2021-01-15T21:03:46Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T21:05:12Z frodef: dbotton: first question is, what do you need an "enum" for?
2021-01-15T21:06:17Z dbotton: Set of valid symbolic values
2021-01-15T21:06:33Z dbotton: For a function or slot etc
2021-01-15T21:07:06Z VincentVega: dbotton: an aside, but with serapeum  you can have compile-time checks for those https://github.com/ruricolist/serapeum#example-enums
2021-01-15T21:07:11Z dbotton: For example - text-direction could be ltr or rtl
2021-01-15T21:07:26Z frodef: so you have the symbols... what do you need the enum for?
2021-01-15T21:07:41Z dbotton: I want to say these are the only valid symbols
2021-01-15T21:08:18Z frodef: so that's the type (member ...)
2021-01-15T21:08:23Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T21:08:28Z dbotton: VincentVega will take a look in a bit
2021-01-15T21:08:40Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-15T21:08:52Z dbotton: That is what I am doing now frodef
2021-01-15T21:09:57Z dbotton: (deftype text-direction () '(member :ltr :rtl))
2021-01-15T21:10:25Z frodef: dbotton: right.. I probably don't quite understand the question, then. There's no more "official way" than (member ..), and I can't really think of anything more succinct.
2021-01-15T21:11:08Z [d] quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-15T21:11:15Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T21:11:43Z dbotton: Ok thanks
2021-01-15T21:12:15Z frodef: dbotton: note that you don't have to name the type, unless it's being used "all over" I'd say that (member :ltr :rtl) is quite readable as it is.
2021-01-15T21:12:43Z frodef: s/name/deftype
2021-01-15T21:12:45Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-15T21:12:56Z dbotton: That is good to know, thanks
2021-01-15T21:18:42Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-15T21:27:00Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T21:27:00Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T21:27:16Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T21:31:38Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-15T21:38:54Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T21:39:38Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T21:42:50Z Josh_2: Joined IRC to get help with a problem, as I joined I solved my problem :P
2021-01-15T21:43:13Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-15T21:43:23Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T21:44:01Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-15T21:46:26Z dbotton: Is there a way to hint to slime/emacs that a certain deftype is the ideal parameter so auto complete would work for it?
2021-01-15T21:46:33Z aeth: dbotton: two kinds of enums... the enum equivalent in an idiomatic way are basically member types. The other kind of enum is a mapping of symbol->number, which can be done with e.g. a function with an ECASE of keyword->number. These are not mutually exclusive, of course, although the language won't check to make sure every branch in the ECASE is covered.
2021-01-15T21:47:34Z aeth: dbotton: I usually just do MEMBER types, but technically, the more correct way is probably '(and keyword (member ...)
2021-01-15T21:47:37Z aeth: )
2021-01-15T21:48:04Z aeth: Especially for long lists.
2021-01-15T21:48:21Z fangyrn quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-15T21:48:22Z aeth: If something's not a keyword, that will rule it out much faster, unless the implementation optimizes member types
2021-01-15T21:48:35Z dbotton: Nice
2021-01-15T21:51:09Z aeth: There are some other enums you could encounter, e.g. CFFI enums
2021-01-15T21:59:00Z catalinbostan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-15T21:59:38Z Inoperable quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-15T22:04:20Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-15T22:04:53Z Inoperable joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:07:09Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-15T22:11:27Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-15T22:12:03Z C-16 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:13:40Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:13:44Z C-16 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-15T22:15:43Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:15:48Z luckless_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:19:16Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:24:11Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T22:27:28Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:27:39Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:35:09Z Alfr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T22:35:31Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:35:46Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-15T22:37:20Z ludston joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:38:09Z conjunctive quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:38:09Z bytesighs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:38:24Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:38:30Z griffinbyatt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:38:48Z copec quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T22:38:58Z bytesighs joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:38:58Z griffinbyatt joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:39:06Z conjunctive joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:39:07Z copec joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:40:15Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:40:15Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:40:15Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:40:57Z Lolicon[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:40:57Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:40:57Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:46:31Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:49:49Z Bike: putting in an (and keyword ...) won't speed anything up if the implementation doesn't simplify types somehow, and if it doesn't simplify types somehow type tests are probably going to be slow regardless
2021-01-15T22:50:25Z Bike: also even assuming the keyword type is checked first, for a member of the type it'll have to check a member anyway, so you'd just be speeding up testing on nonmebers at the expense of testing on members
2021-01-15T22:52:29Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:53:08Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:53:16Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:55:55Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:56:44Z Codaraxis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T22:57:16Z madand quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-15T22:57:44Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:57:51Z ffwacom quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:57:51Z gjnoonan quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T22:58:06Z RagnarDanneskjol quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T22:58:12Z splittist quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T22:58:14Z chewbranca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T22:58:14Z RagnarDanneskjol joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:58:18Z alanz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T22:58:21Z eschatologist quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.x-git-8-998e00fe - https://znc.in)
2021-01-15T22:58:21Z kilimanjaro quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T22:58:22Z johs quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T22:58:22Z selwyn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T22:58:23Z mgsk quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T22:58:26Z splittist joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:58:31Z alanz joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:58:31Z chewbranca joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:58:34Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:58:37Z selwyn joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:58:47Z eschatologist joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:58:53Z gjnoonan joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:59:14Z ffwacom joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:59:17Z johs joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:59:19Z madand joined #lisp
2021-01-15T22:59:50Z beaky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T23:00:02Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:00:03Z mgsk joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:00:14Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:00:19Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:00:20Z malaclyps_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:00:20Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:00:57Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:00:57Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:00:57Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:00:57Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:00:57Z phoe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:00:58Z beaky joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:01:24Z phoe joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:01:31Z aeth: Bike: So it's a bad idiom?
2021-01-15T23:01:45Z aeth: Because it seems about 50/50 when I see this kind of DEFTYPE
2021-01-15T23:01:46Z rvirding quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T23:01:47Z stylewarning quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T23:01:54Z Bike: seems pointless to me
2021-01-15T23:02:16Z stylewarning joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:02:17Z Bike: on sbcl it has no effect on typep speed that i can see, because it reduces (and keyword (member ...)) to (member ...) if all the objects are keywords
2021-01-15T23:02:40Z rvirding joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:02:42Z aeth: ah
2021-01-15T23:02:45Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T23:03:24Z frodef: in general probably not a good idea to think of typespecs as procedures.
2021-01-15T23:03:42Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:03:45Z exit70[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:03:45Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:03:45Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:04:18Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:11:39Z jasom joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:12:47Z Alfr_: Isn't it possible to reduce every (and type-spec (member ..)) to (member ..) simply by only retaining the objects o which satisfy (typep o type-spec)? Or am I missing something here?
2021-01-15T23:13:36Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:13:50Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T23:14:47Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-15T23:14:57Z frodef: Alfr_: in principle I would think yes.
2021-01-15T23:15:05Z paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:16:47Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-15T23:16:47Z gingerale joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:16:48Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:18:34Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:18:49Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:20:30Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:20:39Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:20:52Z HiRE quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T23:20:52Z moon-child quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T23:20:52Z matijja quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T23:20:52Z SumoSud0- quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T23:20:52Z greeb quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T23:20:52Z ozzloy quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T23:20:52Z Papa quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T23:20:52Z azrazalea quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T23:20:52Z dale quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T23:20:52Z mikecheck quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-15T23:20:59Z ozzloy joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:20:59Z ozzloy quit (Changing host)
2021-01-15T23:20:59Z ozzloy joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:21:11Z azrazalea joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:21:24Z Papa joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:21:25Z Papa quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-15T23:21:27Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:21:27Z freshmaker666 quit (Changing host)
2021-01-15T23:21:27Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:21:28Z mikecheck joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:21:29Z HiRE joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:21:31Z matijja joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:21:31Z SumoSud0 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:21:39Z Papa joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:21:42Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:22:00Z dale joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:22:04Z malaclyps_ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:22:12Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:22:33Z moon-child joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:24:28Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:24:59Z exit70[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:24:59Z aeth: Alfr_: Also, I think that technically every type can become a MEMBER type because everything's finite...
2021-01-15T23:25:20Z aeth: I guess excluding SATISFIES
2021-01-15T23:25:23Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:25:28Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-15T23:25:30Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:25:35Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-15T23:25:41Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:27:14Z aeth: Oh, the conses are infinite...
2021-01-15T23:30:01Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:32:18Z acolarh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:33:06Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:33:36Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:35:04Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T23:35:17Z brandflake11 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-15T23:35:36Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:35:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:36:00Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:36:01Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-15T23:36:01Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:36:16Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:36:26Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:38:31Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:40:10Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:40:47Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:45:57Z acolarh joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:50:44Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:50:55Z Smoon quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-15T23:52:00Z Bike: and any class you can make fresh instances of, so standard objects, hash tables, restarts, whatever
2021-01-15T23:52:10Z Bike: but yes, you can collapse restart types like that pretty easily
2021-01-15T23:52:14Z Bike: member types
2021-01-15T23:52:15Z Bike: doy
2021-01-15T23:52:38Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:53:10Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:55:36Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-15T23:57:58Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:58:33Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-15T23:59:34Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-16T00:00:03Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-16T00:05:56Z ecm quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-16T00:05:56Z Gnuxie[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-16T00:05:56Z moon-child quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-16T00:06:21Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-16T00:06:46Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-16T00:13:16Z [d] quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-16T00:13:23Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-16T00:16:48Z Alfr_: Thanks for the input and pointing out satisfies. :)
2021-01-16T00:17:22Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-16T00:18:19Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-16T00:27:49Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T00:29:01Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T00:29:28Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T00:31:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-16T00:32:08Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-16T00:32:57Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T00:33:38Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-16T00:35:01Z ludston: Given that I know loop back to front, is it worth learning iter?
2021-01-16T00:42:38Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T00:46:20Z moon-child joined #lisp
2021-01-16T00:49:06Z ppbitb quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-16T00:55:55Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T01:01:12Z ludston quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T01:06:11Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T01:06:28Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-16T01:07:16Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T01:08:05Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-16T01:14:03Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-16T01:26:23Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-16T01:31:22Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-16T01:45:53Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-16T01:49:46Z kaftejiman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T01:53:37Z dysprosaic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T01:54:13Z albusp quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T01:54:51Z dysprosaic joined #lisp
2021-01-16T01:57:06Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-16T01:58:22Z JSambrook_KJ7RDV joined #lisp
2021-01-16T01:59:04Z albusp joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:00:46Z albusp: ludston: if you know loop, you already know iter
2021-01-16T02:00:59Z edgar-rft: It's always good to learn new things, but I myself never learned iter, so I don't know if it's really good to listen to my advice here.
2021-01-16T02:01:18Z edgar-rft: ...and ludston has quit long ago...
2021-01-16T02:04:22Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T02:04:59Z albusp quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T02:06:27Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:06:47Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:07:25Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T02:08:08Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:09:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T02:10:07Z albusp joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:14:41Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-16T02:20:35Z albusp_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:21:05Z albusp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-16T02:21:31Z albusp_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-16T02:21:33Z dysprosaic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T02:21:51Z dysprosaic joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:26:37Z dysprosaic quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T02:27:21Z dysprosaic joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:30:08Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:36:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T02:38:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:39:22Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-16T02:39:51Z dysprosaic quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T02:40:07Z E38 quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-16T02:40:30Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-16T02:40:48Z dysprosaic joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:42:13Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:45:39Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-16T02:47:27Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:47:43Z freshmaker666 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T02:51:10Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T02:55:00Z mrcom_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T02:56:45Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-16T02:58:00Z dysprosaic quit (Quit: Quit)
2021-01-16T03:10:42Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-16T03:11:37Z fe[nl]ix quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T03:11:37Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T03:11:54Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:11:54Z Blkt joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:11:54Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix
2021-01-16T03:12:11Z fe[nl]ix quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T03:12:11Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T03:12:27Z Blkt joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:12:28Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:12:28Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix
2021-01-16T03:12:49Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T03:13:15Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:13:43Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:15:14Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T03:15:15Z fe[nl]ix quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T03:15:31Z Blkt joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:15:32Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:15:32Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix
2021-01-16T03:17:55Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:17:55Z freshmaker666 quit (Changing host)
2021-01-16T03:17:55Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:21:48Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n
2021-01-16T03:26:09Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:31:57Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T03:40:52Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-16T03:44:01Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-16T03:48:59Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:53:21Z isBEKaml joined #lisp
2021-01-16T03:55:09Z Alfr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T03:55:29Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T04:01:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-16T04:03:58Z slyrus quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-16T04:04:57Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-16T04:08:29Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-16T04:08:43Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T04:15:16Z Alfr quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T04:15:34Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-16T04:18:28Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T04:19:02Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T04:19:24Z nydel joined #lisp
2021-01-16T04:19:31Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T04:19:32Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-16T04:24:14Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-16T04:26:26Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T04:31:11Z Josh_2: mornin beach
2021-01-16T04:32:34Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-16T04:35:04Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-16T04:46:55Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-16T04:49:38Z ramus_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T04:53:12Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T05:01:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T05:01:29Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-16T05:01:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T05:04:51Z ramus_ quit (Quit: Reconnecting)
2021-01-16T05:05:07Z ramus joined #lisp
2021-01-16T05:05:59Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-16T05:06:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T05:07:08Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T05:11:11Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T05:12:23Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T05:13:17Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T05:14:18Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-16T05:16:03Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T05:18:41Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-16T05:21:50Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-16T05:27:53Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T05:39:01Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T05:45:12Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-16T05:46:03Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T05:47:07Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T05:49:00Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-16T06:02:09Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T06:04:21Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-16T06:08:00Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-16T06:17:04Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-16T06:21:26Z opcode joined #lisp
2021-01-16T06:24:02Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-16T06:24:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T06:24:27Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-16T06:33:19Z alfonsoX joined #lisp
2021-01-16T06:39:10Z alfonsoX quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-16T06:40:20Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T06:40:42Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-16T06:40:53Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-16T06:45:20Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T06:47:38Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-16T06:47:47Z thinkpad quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T06:49:27Z thinkpad joined #lisp
2021-01-16T06:49:56Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T06:50:39Z holycow joined #lisp
2021-01-16T06:52:17Z holycow: anyone here use stumpwm?  i'm doing a big of testing in emacs and drawing with code using sketch.
2021-01-16T06:53:08Z holycow: every time sketch draws something new it steals the window focus. anyone know if there is a way to stop the sketch window from setaling focus when emacs sends a live command to draw something to the sketch window?
2021-01-16T06:53:22Z holycow: i assume this must happen in stacking window managers as well
2021-01-16T06:59:32Z catalinbostan joined #lisp
2021-01-16T06:59:41Z thinkpad quit (Quit: lawl)
2021-01-16T07:00:39Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T07:01:08Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:02:31Z cg505 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-16T07:03:23Z holycow: holy moly. stumpwm has a deny-raise-request variable that solves this problem.  wow.
2021-01-16T07:04:26Z cg505 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:08:24Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:17:19Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:18:23Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-16T07:19:06Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:19:16Z Stanley|00 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T07:19:52Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:19:53Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:21:08Z Stanley|00 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T07:22:07Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-16T07:25:21Z opcode: hi all, newbie question:  is there a reason why one might prefer (mapcar) over (map 'list ) or vice-versa?
2021-01-16T07:25:34Z opcode: they seem to do identical things
2021-01-16T07:29:08Z beach: opcode: Yes...
2021-01-16T07:29:31Z beach: opcode: There is a very general rule in programming.  You should choose the most specific construct that will do the job.
2021-01-16T07:29:44Z beach: MAPCAR is more specific than MAP.
2021-01-16T07:30:29Z beach: The rule exists to make it faster to understand the code by someone who didn't write it, or by the same person who wrote it, but a few weeks later.
2021-01-16T07:30:41Z opcode: ok but functionality-wise am i correct that they're identical?
2021-01-16T07:30:51Z beach: But that's beside the point.
2021-01-16T07:31:08Z aeth: (map 'list ...) is generic and will work on any sequence as input
2021-01-16T07:31:12Z aeth: mapcar only works on lists as input
2021-01-16T07:31:23Z opcode: ok thanks aeth
2021-01-16T07:31:47Z aeth: If you expect lists, use mapcar. If you are writing a general function on arbitrary input, map 'list might be preferable.
2021-01-16T07:32:01Z aeth: (imo)
2021-01-16T07:32:06Z beach: Exactly.
2021-01-16T07:33:10Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:34:50Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:38:38Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T07:38:59Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:42:02Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:45:09Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:47:58Z alfonsoX joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:56:07Z alfonsoX quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-16T07:56:22Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-16T07:57:43Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-16T07:59:01Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T08:02:34Z catalinbostan quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-16T08:08:34Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:15:34Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T08:15:49Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:15:56Z ldbeth: good afternoon
2021-01-16T08:18:51Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:21:14Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T08:21:52Z beach: Hello ldbeth.
2021-01-16T08:24:56Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-16T08:28:42Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:30:08Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-16T08:30:33Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:30:55Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-16T08:31:55Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T08:32:13Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:32:41Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:35:21Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:37:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T08:37:06Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:37:26Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-16T08:37:27Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:40:17Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:41:54Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T08:43:00Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T08:46:08Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:47:03Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:47:13Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T08:51:08Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-16T08:51:20Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T08:56:18Z anticrisis quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-16T08:56:58Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:00:24Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:00:41Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:01:13Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T09:02:05Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-16T09:07:02Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:08:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-16T09:08:27Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:08:38Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:11:52Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-16T09:13:12Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:13:52Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T09:17:02Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:21:37Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:21:49Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T09:23:41Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:25:59Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T09:27:07Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:27:13Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-16T09:27:53Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-16T09:28:29Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:31:56Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-16T09:34:36Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T09:36:55Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:39:20Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:41:05Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-16T09:41:37Z datajerk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T09:43:56Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:55:05Z datajerk joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:56:55Z catalinbostan joined #lisp
2021-01-16T09:59:32Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T10:04:02Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-16T10:05:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T10:05:26Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-16T10:05:56Z iskander quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T10:06:17Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-16T10:08:35Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-16T10:08:40Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-16T10:09:03Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T10:10:35Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-16T10:11:06Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T10:12:48Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-16T10:14:53Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-16T10:15:20Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T10:16:17Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T10:18:18Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-16T10:20:15Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-16T10:20:54Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-16T10:27:44Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-16T10:28:28Z RagnarDanneskjol quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-16T10:29:15Z iskander- quit (Quit: bye)
2021-01-16T10:32:36Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-16T10:38:30Z catalinbostan quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-01-16T10:39:02Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T10:47:15Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-16T10:51:07Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-16T10:52:07Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-16T10:58:00Z luis: phoe (or anyone else): do all Lisps that support package-local-nicknames push :package-local-nicknames to *features* or is it best to check whether the foo:package-local-nicknames symbol exists?
2021-01-16T11:03:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T11:03:19Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:06:22Z gxt quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-16T11:07:34Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:15:53Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-16T11:16:21Z mfiano: luis: I would just do what phoe does in tpln, or better yet, use that
2021-01-16T11:17:44Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-16T11:26:23Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T11:27:15Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:30:40Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:32:12Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T11:32:33Z specbot joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:33:07Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T11:33:16Z phoe6245 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T11:33:18Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-16T11:33:23Z specbot joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:33:23Z minion quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-16T11:33:25Z minion joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:33:26Z phoe6245 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:33:46Z moon-child quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T11:33:50Z earenndil joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:34:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T11:34:39Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:34:58Z samebchase quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T11:34:58Z srji quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T11:34:58Z lieven quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T11:35:14Z srji joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:35:16Z lieven joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:35:16Z lieven quit (Changing host)
2021-01-16T11:35:16Z lieven joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:35:23Z samebchase joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:36:35Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T11:36:38Z luis: mfiano: I skimmed that and it seemed to simply assume the symbols were present.
2021-01-16T11:37:35Z luis: (well, it contains a test suite that will presumably fail if the functions are undefined)
2021-01-16T11:58:37Z phoe: luis: the feature is there
2021-01-16T11:59:01Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T12:00:29Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-16T12:06:33Z parjanya quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-16T12:06:48Z parjanya joined #lisp
2021-01-16T12:14:57Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-16T12:25:49Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-16T12:31:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T12:41:45Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-16T12:42:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T12:42:25Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-16T12:43:47Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-16T12:48:49Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-16T12:50:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T12:50:27Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-16T13:21:22Z red-dot joined #lisp
2021-01-16T13:33:46Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-16T13:38:42Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T13:41:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T13:41:26Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-16T13:43:29Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-16T13:43:52Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-16T13:53:23Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-16T14:05:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T14:05:30Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-16T14:06:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T14:06:30Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-16T14:07:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T14:07:30Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-16T14:07:58Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-16T14:08:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T14:08:30Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-16T14:09:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T14:09:43Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-16T14:12:38Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T14:13:04Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-16T14:37:54Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-16T14:39:20Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-16T14:45:56Z freshmaker666 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-16T14:46:29Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T14:46:29Z freshmaker666 quit (Changing host)
2021-01-16T14:46:29Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T14:56:36Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))
2021-01-16T14:59:25Z totoro2021 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T14:59:42Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-16T15:01:21Z totoro2021 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T15:07:34Z Baerwin joined #lisp
2021-01-16T15:08:29Z freshmaker666 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-16T15:10:39Z freshmaker666 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T15:12:05Z gutter quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T15:12:05Z frodef quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T15:12:31Z gutter` joined #lisp
2021-01-16T15:13:46Z rolaids_guy joined #lisp
2021-01-16T15:14:29Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-16T15:15:24Z freshmaker666 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T15:16:36Z yitzi joined #lisp
2021-01-16T15:20:53Z ult quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T15:24:47Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-16T15:29:54Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T15:33:56Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T15:35:14Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T15:44:12Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T15:46:25Z xanderle_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T15:47:47Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-16T15:49:10Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:17:47Z charles` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T16:20:11Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:23:44Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T16:27:39Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:27:43Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:32:59Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T16:33:32Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:35:23Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:37:31Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:38:19Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T16:38:57Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:39:43Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T16:42:25Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:43:33Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T16:44:24Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:45:39Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:46:58Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-16T16:47:37Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:49:26Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:50:21Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-16T16:50:55Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:51:10Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T16:51:10Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-16T16:55:59Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-16T16:57:09Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
2021-01-16T17:00:52Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-16T17:00:54Z Baerwin left #lisp
2021-01-16T17:01:46Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:12:40Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-16T17:13:36Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T17:21:54Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:23:37Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:25:00Z mankaev quit
2021-01-16T17:25:08Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:26:23Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:29:50Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:32:55Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:34:00Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T17:34:40Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-16T17:35:50Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:39:10Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-16T17:39:12Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:41:15Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:43:39Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
2021-01-16T17:46:49Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-16T17:47:05Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:47:06Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:48:20Z luis: phoe: in that case, does this look OK? https://github.com/slime/slime/commit/708d9750fff3ade572ec5d156b003fb49335f50e
2021-01-16T17:49:39Z luis: I couldn't get CCL running on Windows, Lispworks isn't released yet, my version of ACL doesn't include package local nicknames yet and... didn't investigate whether I could get Clasp running here. *sigh*
2021-01-16T17:49:59Z phoe: luis: seems OK; just be mindful that LispWorks might not have PLNs before 7.2
2021-01-16T17:50:30Z jurov joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:51:03Z luis: phoe: SLIME will be ready then. I've also tweaked the inspector to display package-local nicknames.
2021-01-16T17:51:19Z luis: seemed like a no-brainer
2021-01-16T17:51:20Z Cthulhux: SLY is the better SLIME :p
2021-01-16T17:53:01Z jurov_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T17:53:56Z luis: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2021-01-16T17:54:44Z ppbitb joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:54:57Z ppbitb quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-16T17:55:34Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-16T17:59:10Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-16T18:02:21Z phoe: luis: OK, I understand this now - thanks
2021-01-16T18:05:39Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-16T18:10:43Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-16T18:22:32Z Xach forks access to sharplispers for now
2021-01-16T18:22:36Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-16T18:23:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-16T18:23:00Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-16T18:23:00Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-16T18:26:16Z phoe: Xach: need any help with it?
2021-01-16T18:27:01Z Xach: phoe: it needs to be fixed to build with latest sbcl, i don't know if there's a pr but that would be helpful
2021-01-16T18:27:42Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-16T18:30:23Z Xach: phoe: it's forked, are you up for a pr on https://github.com/sharplispers/access ?
2021-01-16T18:30:25Z phoe: Xach: OK, lemme try doing that.
2021-01-16T18:38:19Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-16T18:40:12Z phoe: Xach: should I file issues against the original, or will you enable issues on the fork?
2021-01-16T18:44:25Z phoe: two PRs filed, one against original, another against sharplispers; please verify and merge
2021-01-16T18:47:23Z Xach: you can't tell me in which order to do such things!!
2021-01-16T18:48:33Z ck_: "Merge First Development", excellent startup idea
2021-01-16T18:49:01Z Xach: phoe: that PR works for me
2021-01-16T18:51:42Z red-dot joined #lisp
2021-01-16T18:52:27Z phoe: Xach: <3
2021-01-16T18:52:38Z phoe: anyway, the test suite is warning
2021-01-16T18:52:45Z phoe: where should I file the issue related to that?
2021-01-16T18:56:15Z Xach: i don't know. what is the warning?
2021-01-16T19:00:19Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:00:22Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:01:10Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-16T19:07:09Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:08:41Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2240#2240
2021-01-16T19:11:35Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:11:55Z grobe0ba_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:12:00Z mgsk__ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:12:05Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:06Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:12:34Z mgsk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:34Z grobe0ba quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:34Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:35Z Ziemas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:35Z moon-child joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:12:35Z mgsk__ is now known as mgsk
2021-01-16T19:12:38Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:12:50Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:50Z flazh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:50Z dwts quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:50Z Mandus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:50Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:50Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:50Z Fade quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:50Z ane quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:12:56Z dwts joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:12:58Z Mandus joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:12:59Z ane joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:13:03Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-16T19:13:03Z swflint joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:13:08Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:13:15Z earenndil quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T19:13:15Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T19:13:24Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:13:24Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:13:24Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:13:24Z cgay_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:13:24Z justinmcp_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:13:24Z herlocksholmes quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:13:25Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:13:32Z cgay joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:13:40Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:14:04Z Ziemas joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:14:13Z Xach joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:14:19Z Fade joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:14:32Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:14:33Z justinmcp joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:14:41Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:15:24Z herlocksholmes joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:15:49Z thecoffemaker quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:16:25Z python476 joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:17:41Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:18:08Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:19:14Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:21:21Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:21:46Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:25:16Z Alfr quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T19:25:38Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:32:24Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit)
2021-01-16T19:35:44Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:36:28Z ym joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:37:58Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-16T19:38:35Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-16T19:49:58Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:50:37Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T19:51:43Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))
2021-01-16T19:51:44Z Duuqnd joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:54:09Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-16T19:59:49Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-16T20:07:05Z phoe: seems like a bug of some sort, nothing that is breaking the code
2021-01-16T20:07:17Z phoe: ...until SBCL decides that keywords are illegal type specifiers and that warrants a compile-time warning
2021-01-16T20:07:31Z anticrisis quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-16T20:08:32Z phoe: are keywords valid type specifiers though?... (deftype :foo ...) et al
2021-01-16T20:08:58Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-16T20:09:49Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T20:10:19Z charles`: I personally would avoid that, but what do I know
2021-01-16T20:16:02Z phoe: I'm afraid it's not a question of style, it's a question of conformance
2021-01-16T20:16:11Z phoe: style-wise I'd also avoid it completely
2021-01-16T20:26:22Z hiroaki_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-16T20:28:13Z Nilby: :foo
2021-01-16T20:28:38Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-16T20:28:38Z aorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T20:29:19Z chewb joined #lisp
2021-01-16T20:29:23Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-16T20:29:25Z rogersm quit
2021-01-16T20:29:58Z chewb: hello, is anyone here? i need help with setting up this common lisp project https://github.com/wzrdsappr/trading-core
2021-01-16T20:30:03Z chewb: i use portacle on windows
2021-01-16T20:30:05Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T20:32:30Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-16T20:34:29Z charles`: did you install quicklisp?
2021-01-16T20:34:58Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-16T20:35:06Z Krystof joined #lisp
2021-01-16T20:38:46Z chewb: yes i have it
2021-01-16T20:39:27Z chewb: i putted trading-core dir into local-projects and run quicklisp command, it tried to load it, but i get error because file-io system not found
2021-01-16T20:40:16Z Alfr quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T20:40:30Z aeth: chewb: That means that it probably has a dependency that's not in Quicklisp
2021-01-16T20:40:38Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-16T20:44:55Z charles`: did you download that one too?
2021-01-16T20:45:16Z chewb: yes
2021-01-16T20:45:33Z chewb: it did started compiling lot of things but get error on swing-breakout step
2021-01-16T20:47:56Z chewb: here is stacktrace
2021-01-16T20:47:58Z chewb: https://bpa.st/7C5Q
2021-01-16T20:53:25Z phoe: chewb: convert the files from Windows to Unix line endings
2021-01-16T20:54:10Z chewb: what do you mean? i havent edited files of this project
2021-01-16T20:57:49Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T21:01:18Z phoe: chewb: but you have git cloned them, right?
2021-01-16T21:01:31Z chewb: yes
2021-01-16T21:01:35Z phoe: https://docs.github.com/en/github/using-git/configuring-git-to-handle-line-endings
2021-01-16T21:01:40Z phoe: you'll want to check out Unix line endings
2021-01-16T21:11:02Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T21:11:26Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-16T21:18:37Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack)
2021-01-16T21:20:26Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-16T21:31:27Z jackhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-16T21:33:46Z luckless_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T21:34:28Z luckless_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T21:38:13Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T21:38:21Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-16T21:38:37Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-16T21:40:19Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T21:42:15Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-16T21:43:20Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T21:43:44Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-16T21:43:52Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T21:43:52Z jackhill joined #lisp
2021-01-16T21:44:23Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-16T21:49:40Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T21:51:34Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-16T21:54:43Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T21:58:18Z Dizidentu joined #lisp
2021-01-16T22:06:53Z Dizidentu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-16T22:07:13Z Dizidentu joined #lisp
2021-01-16T22:09:46Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-16T22:10:33Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-16T22:13:11Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T22:14:07Z moon-child quit (Quit: be right back...)
2021-01-16T22:15:54Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-16T22:16:42Z hhdave joined #lisp
2021-01-16T22:25:08Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T22:25:51Z grobe0ba_ is now known as grobe0ba
2021-01-16T22:27:25Z moon-child joined #lisp
2021-01-16T22:30:43Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-16T22:39:12Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-16T22:45:30Z moon-child quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-16T22:45:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T22:51:33Z moon-child joined #lisp
2021-01-16T22:51:42Z moon-child quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T22:52:49Z moon-child joined #lisp
2021-01-16T22:53:35Z moon-child quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T22:55:34Z red-dot joined #lisp
2021-01-16T22:55:56Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-16T22:56:06Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-16T22:56:41Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-16T23:09:26Z moon-child joined #lisp
2021-01-16T23:11:20Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-16T23:13:57Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
2021-01-16T23:15:36Z SN_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T23:17:45Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-16T23:18:12Z red-dot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-16T23:18:12Z SN_ is now known as red-dot
2021-01-16T23:19:50Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-16T23:21:41Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T23:23:44Z chewb_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T23:27:15Z chewb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-16T23:29:00Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
2021-01-16T23:30:12Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-16T23:36:01Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T23:37:18Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-16T23:38:26Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-16T23:40:54Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-16T23:44:15Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-16T23:44:32Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-16T23:46:25Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-16T23:46:30Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-16T23:51:03Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-16T23:55:36Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-16T23:57:47Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T00:04:48Z Duuqnd quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-17T00:09:29Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-17T00:16:03Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T00:22:25Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T00:22:32Z kaftejiman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T00:23:12Z wooden quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T00:26:51Z wooden joined #lisp
2021-01-17T00:26:51Z wooden quit (Changing host)
2021-01-17T00:26:51Z wooden joined #lisp
2021-01-17T00:28:18Z luckless_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T00:28:48Z luckless_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T00:43:19Z torbo joined #lisp
2021-01-17T00:44:44Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T00:56:40Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-17T00:59:05Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T01:01:10Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T01:04:25Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T01:05:02Z chewb_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T01:13:34Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-17T01:18:10Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-17T01:18:25Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T01:18:56Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-17T01:19:13Z snits joined #lisp
2021-01-17T01:20:02Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T01:23:35Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T01:35:52Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-17T01:38:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T01:40:32Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-17T01:44:21Z ludston joined #lisp
2021-01-17T01:47:46Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-17T01:48:28Z moon-child quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-17T01:50:04Z moon-child joined #lisp
2021-01-17T01:56:14Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-17T02:00:46Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T02:09:44Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T02:16:58Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-17T02:17:14Z kaftejiman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T02:31:59Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-17T02:34:05Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-17T02:37:57Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-17T02:40:02Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-17T02:54:53Z moon-child quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-17T03:04:02Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-17T03:06:30Z macdavid313 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T03:23:22Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T03:23:41Z macdavid313 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T03:30:11Z hhdave_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T03:30:14Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T03:30:14Z tomaw quit (Quit: Quitting)
2021-01-17T03:30:16Z Alfr quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T03:30:22Z ane quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T03:30:38Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-17T03:30:49Z tomaw joined #lisp
2021-01-17T03:30:56Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T03:30:56Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T03:30:56Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave
2021-01-17T03:31:23Z ym joined #lisp
2021-01-17T03:33:13Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-17T03:33:48Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-17T03:35:31Z ane joined #lisp
2021-01-17T03:38:01Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-17T03:41:17Z moon-child joined #lisp
2021-01-17T03:44:02Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-17T03:46:13Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-17T03:48:24Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-17T03:50:46Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-17T03:51:02Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-17T03:52:04Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T03:57:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T03:57:04Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-17T03:59:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:02:09Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:02:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-17T04:04:05Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T04:04:37Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-17T04:10:16Z Alfr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T04:10:44Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:12:43Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T04:14:00Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:14:17Z hdasch quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3~bpo9+1 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-17T04:14:35Z hdasch joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:15:16Z Alfr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T04:15:39Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:20:16Z Alfr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T04:20:43Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:21:42Z Alfr_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T04:23:37Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:24:34Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T04:26:01Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-17T04:36:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T04:38:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:39:37Z elflng joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:43:47Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:45:19Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T04:45:31Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:47:04Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-17T04:50:17Z Dizidentu quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-17T04:56:18Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T04:59:37Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T05:00:11Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T05:01:53Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-17T05:05:15Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-17T05:10:33Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-17T05:13:19Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-17T05:14:24Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T05:15:43Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-17T05:21:02Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-17T05:21:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T05:22:15Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-17T05:23:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-17T05:27:06Z skapate joined #lisp
2021-01-17T05:27:07Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T05:38:30Z ey[m]: what do you all think of those who say that lisp is hard to read ?
2021-01-17T05:41:16Z pranavats: Depends on the difficulty they are facing.
2021-01-17T05:41:23Z beach: Any unfamiliar language, natural or artificial, is hard to read.
2021-01-17T05:41:44Z beach: ey[m]: But it is not intrinsically harder to read than anything else.
2021-01-17T05:42:33Z ey[m]: the major concern those people have are the huge amount of parens when closing many nested expressions
2021-01-17T05:42:44Z beach: To me, C++ is incomprehensible, but that's because I am unfamiliar with it.
2021-01-17T05:43:09Z ey[m]: so it gets harder to find out what paren closes what function
2021-01-17T05:43:22Z beach: ey[m]: Common Lisp programmers don't see the parentheses.  The parentheses are editor commands, and instead Common Lisp programmers understand the code from indentation.
2021-01-17T05:44:06Z beach: ey[m]: It is a common misconception among people to whom Common Lisp is unfamiliar, that parentheses are an important aspect of understanding the code.
2021-01-17T05:45:06Z beach: ey[m]: Anyway, what is the purpose of your question?
2021-01-17T05:45:12Z beach: Do you want us to agree with you?
2021-01-17T05:45:31Z beach: Or, are you trying to teach us something?
2021-01-17T05:46:48Z moon-child: ey[m]: as with any language, it may not be easy to understand until you're practiced in it.  Japanese is also hard to read, unless you know japanese.  And if you already know italian, you'll find it easier to learn spanish than japanese
2021-01-17T05:46:59Z beach: Furthermore, many nested expressions suggest that the code should be broken up into smaller units.
2021-01-17T05:47:26Z ey[m]: I was just thinking of all the reasons why people don't like lisp (I love it) and this came to mind while seeing an old python conf video
2021-01-17T05:48:17Z moon-child: (though that may not be the best example since there are definite improvements to alphabetic writing systesm systems over syllabaries and logographies)
2021-01-17T05:48:20Z beach: ey[m]: People like what they are familiar with, and since Lisp is not often taught in teaching programs, it is unfamiliar, and thus, people don't like it.
2021-01-17T05:48:29Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-17T05:49:08Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-17T05:53:49Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T06:10:09Z edgar-rft: What do I think of those who say that lisp is hard to read ? I do think that there is also no language that is soft to read. Stupid statements need stupid answers.
2021-01-17T06:13:42Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T06:14:57Z zacts_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T06:15:45Z zacts_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T06:16:07Z zacts_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T06:16:38Z zacts is now known as Guest97853
2021-01-17T06:16:55Z zacts_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T06:17:28Z abhixec quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-17T06:17:28Z zacts_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T06:19:33Z zacts_ is now known as zacts
2021-01-17T06:25:11Z beach: edgar-rft: I am sure ey[m] had a purpose with the question.  But we still don't know what it is.
2021-01-17T06:25:37Z beach: Maybe we should come up with arguments against the statement to be used on those other people who think Lisp is hard to read?
2021-01-17T06:28:42Z ey[m]: beach: I was watching an old python conf video and the presenter said he left lisp for python because he felt python's syntax was much clearer.
2021-01-17T06:29:08Z beach: Ah, one of those.
2021-01-17T06:31:51Z ludston: I think, to be fair "var x = 10;" is more intuitive than (let ((x 10)...)
2021-01-17T06:32:15Z beach: In the past, I have seen or read about other people who decide to change from Lisp to something else, and they almost always give some excuse that suggests that there is something wrong with Lisp.
2021-01-17T06:32:15Z beach: Often they accuse the "community" of not doing anything about these perceived problems.  But in fact, it is just a personal preference that made them change, and they are trying to protect themselves from criticism concerning their decision.
2021-01-17T06:32:49Z beach: ludston: There is nothing "intuitive" about programming.  It is all learned.
2021-01-17T06:33:28Z ludston: It's more intuitive, given than most of us grow up rote-learning euclidean geometry, so it uses more of our pre-learned framework
2021-01-17T06:33:49Z beach: Yes, that's what I meant.
2021-01-17T06:34:05Z beach: It has to do with previous experience.
2021-01-17T06:34:46Z ludston: I don't think that it is harder to read lisp code than any other language though
2021-01-17T06:34:51Z beach: And, the fact that Lisp is not often taught in CS or SE teaching programs then reinforces the familiarity with this notation.
2021-01-17T06:34:51Z pranavats: That could depend on your background. For someone used to mathematical syntax that equals sign could be confusing.
2021-01-17T06:36:06Z ludston: pranavates: Interesting that you mentioned that, because I saw the results of a test for first-time programmers and that did indeed happen
2021-01-17T06:39:21Z macdavid313 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T06:40:33Z plisp: euclidean geometry is beautiful. I think you meant cartesian coordinates
2021-01-17T06:42:40Z beach: So, anyway, I don't think there is anything that can be done about the people who claim that Lisp is hard to read.
2021-01-17T06:43:47Z pranavats: I have heard more convincing claims about comprehension being affected by the syntax, after one has gotten familar with the syntax. Though that is about APL, and tendency of APL programmers to rely on recognizable idioms, instead of just creating new layers of abstraction.
2021-01-17T06:44:06Z plisp: more relevant to the topic: the couple programmers I talked to were fairly quick to accept indentation-based reading. Almost as quickly as they brought up parentheses
2021-01-17T06:44:39Z plisp: python programmers*
2021-01-17T06:48:09Z pranavats: I mean comprehension of programs, not the language. Following from that, embedded DSLs can make the job of reading a program a bit of a task; needing to jump from one layer of abstraction to the other frequently, depending on the way the program is written, of course.
2021-01-17T06:48:36Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T06:49:47Z macdavid313 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T06:49:53Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-17T06:49:54Z ludston: Personally, I think that the worst thing we lisp programmers do is teaching car and cdr before make-array
2021-01-17T06:50:03Z python476: lisp syntax appeal to me because most of it is closed
2021-01-17T06:50:17Z python476: like fp, you can unplug a sexp and understand it 90% of the time
2021-01-17T06:50:30Z python476: in imperative programming good luck
2021-01-17T06:50:49Z python476: (assuming you write lexical, non setq/effect heavy lisp of course)
2021-01-17T06:51:21Z python476: ludston: you think iterative array processing appeals better to newcomers ?
2021-01-17T06:52:00Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))
2021-01-17T06:52:04Z ludston: The power of lisp over other languages, in my opinion, is that you can manipulate cons cells to generate code dynamically
2021-01-17T06:52:28Z ludston: Usually via macro-writing: But this macro-writing is an advanced skill
2021-01-17T06:52:31Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T06:52:38Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-17T06:52:49Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-17T06:53:23Z ludston: And singly linked lists are a terrible data structure for beginner programmers, because writing algorithms to manipulate singly-linked lists can be very fiddly
2021-01-17T06:55:25Z python476: code as first class and similarly tree processing thinking first
2021-01-17T06:56:06Z ludston: Because of this, I think it is better to gain fluency using lisp data-structures like array, and hashtable, because, if you want to write fast lisp code, you will be using these data-structures most of the time
2021-01-17T06:56:26Z python476: maybe i'm too much into the linguistic side of lisps and not perf
2021-01-17T06:56:55Z python476: I always feel that perf is better added onto a good overall design and problem space mapping
2021-01-17T06:57:12Z ludston: And then, mastering list manipulation later, for the sake of writing macro's, is a good approach
2021-01-17T06:57:16Z python476: which fits the dsl approach
2021-01-17T06:57:24Z Guest97853 quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-17T06:57:45Z zacts_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T06:57:58Z zacts is now known as Guest41845
2021-01-17T06:58:09Z zacts_ is now known as zacts
2021-01-17T06:58:22Z ludston: I think that teaching '(), car and cdr first encourages programmers to first try and model their problems in the singly-linked list space, but singly-linked lists are very often a poor abstraction for many algorithms
2021-01-17T06:59:19Z python476: can't say
2021-01-17T06:59:30Z python476: it made inductive reasoning easier to learn
2021-01-17T06:59:35Z pranavats: What do you mean by a poor abstraction ludston?
2021-01-17T06:59:42Z python476: array/indices would confuse the hell out me with induction
2021-01-17T07:00:21Z ludston: pranavats: For example, try writing the quick-sort algorithm using singly-linked lists
2021-01-17T07:01:03Z Nikotiini joined #lisp
2021-01-17T07:01:06Z python476: it's obvious for in-place array processing like this
2021-01-17T07:01:19Z python476: but so much of programming is not about this kind of problems
2021-01-17T07:01:34Z python476: it's a bit like clojure
2021-01-17T07:01:45Z python476: and threading macros
2021-01-17T07:01:59Z python476: it makes a medium to long convoluted piece of code
2021-01-17T07:02:09Z python476: into a nice little sequence of function (-> a b c d e f)
2021-01-17T07:02:43Z python476: then if function c needs to be effectful-over-array then be it
2021-01-17T07:03:21Z python476: but it's very important to make new devs see how the language can impact your coding
2021-01-17T07:05:32Z Guest41845 quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-17T07:05:53Z pranavats: ludston: I see what you mean. I tried writing that when I was learning Lisp. ;)
2021-01-17T07:06:49Z red-dot joined #lisp
2021-01-17T07:06:51Z ludston: pranavats: If somone was looking over your shoulder, like, "No don't do it like that, just use make-array" you'd have had a much better time, see?
2021-01-17T07:09:11Z ludston: My experience with common lisp, was that I learned it in my first year of university, because someone else said it was cool. The first book I picked up was Land of Lisp, which taught me a pile of bad habits that I had to unlearn, and then it was not until after I'd done some datastructures and algorithms courses and coming back to lisp was like, "Wow this language is so much better than C#"
2021-01-17T07:09:12Z beach: What is so hard about quicksort on a list?
2021-01-17T07:09:37Z python476: the cpu cost ?:p
2021-01-17T07:09:58Z beach: It is not particularly costly.
2021-01-17T07:09:58Z python476: ludston: what was so bad in land of lisp ? (I only skimmed bits of it)
2021-01-17T07:10:00Z ludston: beach: 'nth is O(n), and you quickly get lost in the complexity of using car/cdr
2021-01-17T07:10:50Z beach: You choose the first element as a pivot.  Then partition the rest of the list according to that pivot.  Recursively sort the partitions.  Append the results.  Done.
2021-01-17T07:10:58Z beach: It is still O(n log n).
2021-01-17T07:11:18Z beach: ... on the average, I mean.
2021-01-17T07:11:24Z beach: As it is on an array.
2021-01-17T07:11:30Z slyrus joined #lisp
2021-01-17T07:12:38Z ludston: beach: You're going to have O(n) malloc that way I think
2021-01-17T07:12:52Z beach: You are not allocating anything.
2021-01-17T07:13:37Z python476: you're recreating intermediate lists isn't it ?
2021-01-17T07:13:40Z beach: I should have said NCONC the results.
2021-01-17T07:13:47Z beach: Why would you do that?
2021-01-17T07:13:55Z python476: I assumed
2021-01-17T07:14:04Z beach: That would be a silly thing to do.
2021-01-17T07:14:16Z python476: at that point I don't see the value of using a list
2021-01-17T07:14:22Z beach: You have N CONS cells.  All you need to do is reorganize them.
2021-01-17T07:14:31Z python476: alright
2021-01-17T07:15:13Z andreyorst_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T07:15:25Z beach: python476: I wasn't arguing about the value of using a list.  I was reacting to ludston thinking it was hard to implement.
2021-01-17T07:16:06Z beach: python476: By the way, a lot of Common Lisp code is imperative.
2021-01-17T07:17:07Z ludston: beach: Unfortunately, choosing the left-most cell as the partition gets the worst possible performance on an already sorted list
2021-01-17T07:17:08Z python476: yeah I'm from a recent times where immutable ds / lists influenced me more than CL ways
2021-01-17T07:17:41Z beach: ludston: Picking the middle one wont change much.
2021-01-17T07:18:10Z gutter` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T07:18:37Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-17T07:18:42Z beach: ludston: I was merely reacting to your claim that it is hard to implement.  It isn't.
2021-01-17T07:19:28Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-17T07:19:30Z emaczen joined #lisp
2021-01-17T07:20:17Z ludston: beach: The reason I don't agree with you is that I'm looking at a stackoverflow question about this, and none of the answers do it in place https://stackoverflow.com/questions/19082032/quicksort-in-lisp
2021-01-17T07:20:37Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.
2021-01-17T07:20:39Z emaczen left #lisp
2021-01-17T07:20:48Z python476: I was just looking at that
2021-01-17T07:20:55Z python476: none used nconc
2021-01-17T07:21:05Z ludston: beach: It is, in the very least, less trivial to implement quicksort over a list vs over an array
2021-01-17T07:21:06Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-17T07:21:20Z python476: nconc seems to be a rarely used function isn't it ?
2021-01-17T07:21:28Z python476: (not arguing btw)
2021-01-17T07:21:40Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-17T07:21:46Z beach: ludston: I strongly disagree.  For an array, it gets tricky to avoid an infinite recursion.
2021-01-17T07:22:23Z ludston: Which is irrelevant to the power of lisp, which supports arrays just as easily as lists, but relevant to which to teach first
2021-01-17T07:22:31Z beach: You have to be very careful with excluding the pivot and putting it back in the right place.
2021-01-17T07:22:53Z beach: There are plenty of incorrect implementations of quicksort.
2021-01-17T07:23:04Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T07:23:40Z pranavats: Btw, I didn't use any imperative code when I tried implementing quick sort in Lisp.
2021-01-17T07:24:28Z pranavats: The version in ANSI Common Lisp by Paul Graham is just fine, which is imperative.
2021-01-17T07:25:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T07:27:16Z ludston: pranavats: And overating over a vector
2021-01-17T07:27:26Z ludston: *operating
2021-01-17T07:28:43Z pranavats: Oh. I'd like to have checked that. Thanks.
2021-01-17T07:29:57Z ludston: pranavats: You also cannot write a functional algorithm that doesn't have O(n) allocation, by definition, given that you aren't allowed to modify the source list
2021-01-17T07:35:21Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-17T07:36:02Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-17T07:37:30Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-17T07:39:08Z skapate quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T07:44:03Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-17T07:44:14Z pyc: Is there a difference between write-string and write-line?
2021-01-17T07:44:28Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-17T07:46:05Z pyc: Ah! I see one does not add a newline and the other one does while printing the string but they both seem to return the same string.
2021-01-17T07:47:31Z ludston: pyc: One does newline
2021-01-17T07:48:37Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Quit: Пока, мир.)
2021-01-17T07:48:58Z ludston: pyc: Easy to test the difference with (let ((s (make-new-output-stream))) (write-string "blah" s) (get-output-stream-string s))
2021-01-17T07:52:51Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-17T07:55:24Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T07:56:04Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T07:57:24Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:00:02Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:00:40Z gutter` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:00:45Z SN_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:03:22Z tomaw quit (Quit: Quitting)
2021-01-17T08:03:30Z red-dot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T08:03:30Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T08:03:30Z Walex quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T08:03:32Z SN_ is now known as red-dot
2021-01-17T08:03:33Z slyrus1 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:03:35Z tomaw joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:03:53Z Nikotiini joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:04:04Z gutter quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T08:04:04Z slyrus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T08:04:04Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T08:04:04Z glamas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T08:04:13Z glamas joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:04:38Z nmg joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:05:00Z Walex joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:08:28Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:23:12Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:27:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T08:29:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:32:32Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:33:39Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T08:34:51Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:34:51Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-17T08:34:51Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:35:37Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T08:40:07Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-17T08:46:10Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:50:18Z kini quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T08:50:21Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-17T08:51:39Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-17T08:53:38Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-17T09:01:25Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-17T09:04:54Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-17T09:07:01Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T09:07:23Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-17T09:09:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T09:19:25Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-17T09:23:10Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T09:23:56Z cg505 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T09:24:28Z cg505 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T09:31:16Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-17T09:32:35Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-17T09:33:08Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-17T09:34:39Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-17T09:36:36Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-17T09:42:50Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T09:46:38Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T09:46:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T09:47:32Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T09:49:30Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-17T09:51:26Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T10:00:42Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-17T10:05:12Z gutter` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T10:07:57Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-17T10:11:38Z rogersm quit
2021-01-17T10:17:25Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-17T10:18:34Z penguwin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T10:19:31Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-17T10:20:29Z v0|d quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T10:21:34Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-17T10:25:49Z penguwin joined #lisp
2021-01-17T10:29:04Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-17T10:30:57Z beach` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T10:34:47Z beach quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-17T10:34:51Z beach` is now known as beach
2021-01-17T10:35:08Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-17T10:36:18Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-17T10:38:16Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T10:39:46Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))
2021-01-17T10:48:29Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-17T10:53:39Z ak5 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T10:54:16Z ak5 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T10:54:35Z ak5 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T10:57:17Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:01:00Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:02:34Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T11:02:53Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-17T11:07:37Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:09:52Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:17:06Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:23:03Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-17T11:23:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T11:23:39Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:25:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T11:26:23Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:28:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T11:28:53Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:30:54Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T11:31:19Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:33:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T11:34:22Z Inline quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-17T11:34:27Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:36:00Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:37:18Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-17T11:37:43Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:38:17Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:39:03Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:39:13Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-17T11:40:16Z aorst quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T11:41:57Z Xach quit (Changing host)
2021-01-17T11:41:57Z Xach joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:42:34Z tinga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T11:43:38Z tinga joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:44:13Z pyc: Is there any best practice guidelines for write-line vs. format? Is format to be avoided when write-line would suffice?
2021-01-17T11:44:35Z phoe: I never really use write-line myself
2021-01-17T11:44:45Z pyc: phoe: do you always use format?
2021-01-17T11:45:28Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:45:37Z pyc: I see all tutorials and PCL book use format even while printing simple strings. Makes me wonder why write-line is ignored. For simple strings, the code looks neater with write-line.
2021-01-17T11:45:39Z phoe: more or less yes, unless I deal with single characters
2021-01-17T11:46:43Z phoe: for me it's (format t "...~%") or (format t "~A~%" variable-string); possibly superfluous, but I never really felt the need to use write-line
2021-01-17T11:47:30Z pyc: phoe: thanks. that is what I wanted to know. for single characters, I guess you use write-char (still not write-line), am I right?
2021-01-17T11:47:54Z phoe: yes
2021-01-17T11:48:17Z phoe: or princ
2021-01-17T11:49:10Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-17T11:52:44Z Xach: i use write-line from time to time. i like it better than (format t "~A~%" line)
2021-01-17T11:52:52Z Xach: but it depends on context
2021-01-17T11:52:55Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:55:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T11:55:35Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T11:57:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T11:59:32Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T12:01:57Z pyc: Xach: thanks! Incidentally, I was looking for write-line on the web and I came across your code. I agree I like (write-line line) to be cleaner than (format t "~A~%" line).
2021-01-17T12:01:57Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T12:04:32Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T12:04:44Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T12:06:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T12:06:59Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-17T12:07:19Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T12:07:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T12:08:09Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T12:10:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T12:11:25Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T12:16:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T12:16:27Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T12:19:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T12:20:16Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T12:22:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T12:22:33Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T12:22:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T12:24:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T12:25:16Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T12:37:09Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T12:41:00Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T12:41:04Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-17T12:55:16Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T12:57:17Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T12:57:23Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-17T13:06:07Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-17T13:07:07Z joshcom joined #lisp
2021-01-17T13:07:19Z joshcom left #lisp
2021-01-17T13:10:38Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T13:17:03Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T13:17:17Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T13:19:19Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-17T13:23:47Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-17T13:28:27Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T13:28:33Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T13:30:28Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T13:30:44Z l1x joined #lisp
2021-01-17T13:34:01Z kapil_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T13:34:42Z kapil_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T13:37:08Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-17T13:38:37Z kapil_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T13:40:34Z kapil_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T13:42:40Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-17T13:50:56Z ralt: _death: are you still maintaining dbus? I've been playing with it again this week, and the main issue I have with it is the error reporting. For example, an invalid list of parameters returns an EOF error
2021-01-17T13:51:38Z ralt: It works great beside the errors that are typically pebkac
2021-01-17T13:51:56Z ralt: Been thinking about making a more lispy interface on top of it
2021-01-17T13:52:17Z ralt: Like generating classes based on introspection
2021-01-17T13:53:16Z ralt: I wonder if that's possible
2021-01-17T13:53:35Z ralt: Because the introspection is runtime but the classes and their slots are defined at compile time :/
2021-01-17T13:53:58Z ralt: Maybe with closer-mop I can generate dynamic slots and stuff?
2021-01-17T13:56:53Z ralt: That lib would obviously be called closer-dbus ^^
2021-01-17T13:58:20Z ludston quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T14:00:07Z luna_is_here quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T14:01:41Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T14:03:06Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:06:43Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:09:32Z red-dot joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:11:41Z hhdave_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:11:50Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T14:12:58Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T14:13:03Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-17T14:13:04Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave
2021-01-17T14:14:01Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:18:24Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T14:20:03Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-17T14:20:53Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:25:21Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:26:00Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T14:26:00Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:28:05Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:29:36Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T14:29:53Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:36:25Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T14:39:04Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:44:47Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:45:59Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-17T14:54:52Z aindilis` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:55:53Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-17T14:57:25Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T15:08:01Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-17T15:10:40Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-17T15:10:58Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-17T15:11:49Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-17T15:11:57Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-17T15:12:28Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T15:13:02Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T15:18:16Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T15:19:00Z red-dot quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))
2021-01-17T15:20:17Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-17T15:23:52Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-17T15:26:49Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-17T15:28:19Z _death: ralt: sure, I can review and accept patches.. not using it nowadays so there are no changes coming from me
2021-01-17T15:34:51Z ralt: _death: fair enough
2021-01-17T15:38:40Z thmprover joined #lisp
2021-01-17T15:38:41Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-17T15:38:43Z _death: ralt: I guess one way to make a lispy interface would be to write something that generates stub code from an interface and dump it to a file.. then your code could depend on that stub (harnessing asdf) and the names it exports
2021-01-17T15:40:24Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-17T15:56:55Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-17T15:58:57Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T16:02:10Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T16:02:55Z rgherdt_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:03:14Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:03:18Z hhdave_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:03:42Z ldbeth` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:04:10Z ptr_0x0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:04:14Z mood_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:04:55Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T16:04:56Z mood quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T16:04:56Z null_ptr quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T16:04:56Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T16:04:56Z hhdave_ is now known as hhdave
2021-01-17T16:05:10Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T16:05:38Z shka_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T16:05:44Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T16:05:44Z cage_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T16:05:44Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T16:05:48Z nckx joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:06:27Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:08:55Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:19:38Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:25:53Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:27:49Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-17T16:31:15Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:32:59Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T16:33:16Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:33:54Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:39:53Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T16:43:48Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:51:21Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T16:52:02Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-17T16:53:11Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-17T16:55:50Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-17T16:56:38Z Krystof joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:00:40Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-17T17:00:42Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:00:52Z Dizidentu joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:01:53Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-17T17:02:34Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:05:51Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T17:07:04Z ldbeth` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:08:03Z cage_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-17T17:08:34Z davd33 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:09:41Z luna_is_here quit (Quit: luna_is_here)
2021-01-17T17:10:19Z tlaxkit joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:11:21Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:11:44Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T17:12:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-17T17:15:55Z luna_is_here quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T17:17:16Z ldbeth` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:17:31Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:18:09Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:22:38Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-17T17:25:23Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-17T17:27:25Z ldbeth` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:32:26Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T17:34:31Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:35:02Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:36:31Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:36:58Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T17:37:37Z ldbeth` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:40:12Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T17:40:42Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:42:16Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T17:44:58Z yitzi quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T17:45:10Z yitzi joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:46:25Z luna_is_here quit (Quit: luna_is_here)
2021-01-17T17:47:50Z ldbeth` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:48:03Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:48:06Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:49:54Z rlp10: How do you append a subdirectory to the end of a pathname? I'm finding the number of different libraries a bit confusing, since what I want to do is pretty common I guess.
2021-01-17T17:50:06Z phoe: rlp10: cl:merge-pathnames
2021-01-17T17:50:51Z phoe: (merge-pathnames #p"baz/" #p"/foo/bar/") ;=> #P"/foo/bar/baz/"
2021-01-17T17:52:10Z rlp10: phoe: Thank you, that's really helpful. I guess it's the other way round from what I was expecting, but that makes no odds. I don't know why I was struggling to find it so much. Anyway, I appreciate your quick response - thanks.
2021-01-17T17:52:35Z phoe: no problem
2021-01-17T17:52:40Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T17:52:42Z phoe: pathnames in CL tend to be confusing, so no worries
2021-01-17T17:53:39Z rlp10: phoe: Yeah, tell me about it!
2021-01-17T17:53:42Z aeth: phoe: shouldn't it be uiop:merge-pathnames* to fix portability issues between implementations?
2021-01-17T17:54:30Z aeth: cl-fad also is a thing.
2021-01-17T17:55:19Z rlp10: aeth: So is that what I should be using? Quite a bit of my scripting deals with folders, files, their contents etc.
2021-01-17T17:57:25Z aeth: rlp10: uiop/filesystem and uiop/pathname and uiop/configuration (and maybe a few other parts of uiop) may be able to help with some of your problems, but I'm not very familiar with the nuances because I rarely work with complicated file-based operations. Iirc, ASDF mostly uses UIOP for this.
2021-01-17T17:57:37Z phoe: aeth: kinda should, yeah
2021-01-17T17:57:57Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:58:02Z ldbeth` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T17:58:03Z aeth: rlp10: e.g. (uiop:xdg-config-home) should get you the correct parent directory of where you should put your configurations.
2021-01-17T17:58:30Z aeth: Well, on Linux (XDG) and on Windows (whatever Windows uses). It treats macOS like a Unix, rather than using macOS's custom conventions, so it might not be fully idiomatic there depending on what you're doing.
2021-01-17T17:58:42Z rlp10: OK, I have to confess that I'm new, so I don't fully understand what uiop and asdf are. I'd probably better start by reading their websites.
2021-01-17T17:58:50Z rlp10: I'm on Linux, so that element doesn't bother me.
2021-01-17T17:59:04Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:00:37Z aeth: rlp10: Packages in CL are namespaces for symbols. Quicklisp is the "package" manager, but since the name "package" was taken, it's really the "system" manager. Systems are ASDF systems, and they basically are the standard library format in CL. ASDF fills a similar role to e.g. make. ASDF uses UIOP as its utility library, which means UIOP can be useful if you're dealing with files.
2021-01-17T18:00:54Z aeth: s/the standard library format/the library format that's standard/
2021-01-17T18:00:58Z aeth: (since "standard library" means something else)
2021-01-17T18:01:13Z aeth: De facto standard, though, not in the spec.
2021-01-17T18:01:32Z rlp10: aeth: Thanks for your explanation, that helps.
2021-01-17T18:01:58Z rlp10: So all other things being equal, I should be trying to use UIOP for compatibility?
2021-01-17T18:02:45Z aeth: UIOP or CL-FAD should give you what you need, but since most people already have UIOP installed (because it's used by ASDF), the latter is probably more popular.
2021-01-17T18:02:55Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T18:02:56Z rlp10: OK, got it, thanks
2021-01-17T18:03:37Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T18:04:18Z aeth: UIOP does a *ton* of extra stuff, but it's mostly used for its file/path/etc. functionality.
2021-01-17T18:04:27Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T18:07:21Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:08:13Z ldbeth` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:09:18Z lilgopher joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:10:38Z luna_is_here quit (Quit: luna_is_here)
2021-01-17T18:11:09Z rolaids_guy is now known as greeb
2021-01-17T18:11:09Z greeb quit (Changing host)
2021-01-17T18:11:09Z greeb joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:12:24Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:12:45Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T18:13:32Z aeth: It's usually polite to stay within subdirectories of uiop:xdg-config-home or uiop:xdg-cache-home or uiop:xdg-data-home if reading/writing. If only reading, then asdf:system-source-directory will get you the directory of a system (i.e. library). I guess you start from cl:user-homedir-pathname if you want to read/write e.g. ~/Documents
2021-01-17T18:14:48Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T18:15:39Z lilgopher left #lisp
2021-01-17T18:15:48Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:18:20Z ldbeth` joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:22:20Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:23:12Z ldbeth` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T18:24:29Z rogersm quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T18:25:58Z ralt: Those xdg- functions also helpfully accept a path as an argument
2021-01-17T18:26:10Z luna_is_here quit (Quit: luna_is_here)
2021-01-17T18:35:36Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:35:38Z mood_ quit (Quit: Gone.)
2021-01-17T18:36:03Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:37:42Z aeth: ralt: yes, and then you can write something like this: (apply #'path-from-dir (funcall lookup-function) (append (if org-name (list org-name)) (list app-name)))
2021-01-17T18:38:12Z mood joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:38:48Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:38:57Z aeth: ralt: that should get you "professional" looking usage of ~/.local/share/ (or whatever the #'xdg-data-home happens to be configured as) where it's ~/.local/share/your-organization/your-app/ or ~/.local/share/your-app/
2021-01-17T18:39:20Z aeth: That already gets you more polish than a lot of programs (paid or free) tend to do.
2021-01-17T18:40:41Z luna_is_here quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T18:42:16Z aeth: (In that case, #'path-from-dir is in turn just a trivial wrapper over uiop:merge-pathnames*)
2021-01-17T18:43:29Z mood quit (Quit: Gone.)
2021-01-17T18:43:53Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:46:16Z mood joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:57:27Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-17T18:59:36Z ralt: aeth: the xdg- functions accept several parameters
2021-01-17T19:00:02Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:00:25Z luna_is_here quit (Quit: luna_is_here)
2021-01-17T19:01:02Z ralt: So whatever (apply #'xdg-data-home (list ...)) or something
2021-01-17T19:01:58Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:02:09Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:02:41Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:05:32Z luna_is_here quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T19:05:37Z aeth: ralt: doing (uiop:xdg-data-home #P"foo" #P"bar") I get ~/.local/share/bar rather than ~/.local/share/foo/bar
2021-01-17T19:06:38Z ralt: aeth: try #p"foo/"
2021-01-17T19:07:14Z aeth: ralt: then it needs to be wrapped, anyway, so you get #P"foo/" #P"bar/"
2021-01-17T19:07:19Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:07:21Z aeth: out of "foo" and "bar"
2021-01-17T19:08:26Z aeth: ralt: You also need to reverse the order, since the optional part (the parent directory) comes first.
2021-01-17T19:08:50Z ralt: I mean, that's the API provided to you
2021-01-17T19:09:19Z aeth: What I mean is, you want to input "bar" "foo" or "bar" NIL and get #P"foo/" #P"bar/" or #P"bar/"
2021-01-17T19:09:25Z luna_is_here quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T19:13:13Z ralt: #p"foo" is a pathname that represents a file, so when you try to use it and don't get it as part of a folder... that's expected
2021-01-17T19:13:37Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:14:05Z aeth: ralt: This is slightly improved: (apply lookup-function (append (if org-name (list (uiop:make-pathname* :directory `(:relative ,org-name))) nil) (list (uiop:make-pathname* :directory `(:relative ,app-name)))))
2021-01-17T19:14:21Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:14:28Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:14:58Z odin_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:16:21Z aeth: But you can still just combine the two
2021-01-17T19:17:36Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:18:50Z aeth: i.e. (funcall lookup-function (make-pathname* :directory `(:relative ,@(if org-name (list org-name) nil) ,app-name)))
2021-01-17T19:19:29Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:19:34Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:20:23Z aeth: Looks like make-pathname* is deprecated in UIOP, though.
2021-01-17T19:20:26Z aeth: So that's not needed anymore.
2021-01-17T19:20:57Z gioyik_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:21:07Z gnu-linuxera joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:21:36Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:23:30Z gioyik quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:24:04Z tlaxkit quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:28:17Z odin_ left #lisp
2021-01-17T19:29:01Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-17T19:30:46Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:30:56Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:31:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:31:33Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:31:57Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:32:47Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:36:13Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-17T19:37:46Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:38:45Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:39:04Z aeth: This should be simple enough... maybe I should move it to my utils: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/-/blob/e50f8366e2ec24258a436fa8f4b2ec0f7627fc6e/data/data-path.lisp
2021-01-17T19:39:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:40:00Z l1x quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-17T19:44:01Z davd33 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:48:25Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:52:08Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:53:04Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2021-01-17T19:53:31Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-17T19:55:48Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-17T19:55:53Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T19:57:43Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-17T20:01:07Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-17T20:12:36Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T20:23:33Z sxmx joined #lisp
2021-01-17T20:24:43Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T20:28:16Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T20:29:46Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-17T20:30:48Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-17T20:32:33Z gnu-linuxera quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/)
2021-01-17T20:33:52Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-17T20:40:25Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-17T20:42:48Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T20:42:49Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-17T20:43:31Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-17T20:47:07Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T20:51:43Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T20:59:59Z skapate joined #lisp
2021-01-17T21:00:38Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T21:01:22Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T21:02:14Z skapate is now known as skapata
2021-01-17T21:02:27Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-17T21:10:55Z amerigo joined #lisp
2021-01-17T21:12:49Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-17T21:14:12Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-17T21:16:11Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T21:16:31Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T21:27:56Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T21:27:56Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T21:28:19Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-17T21:28:31Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-17T21:28:41Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-17T21:33:23Z gnuhack joined #lisp
2021-01-17T21:35:02Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-17T21:37:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-17T21:37:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-17T21:37:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-17T21:38:05Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T21:45:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T21:48:59Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-17T21:50:41Z GuerrillaMonkey joined #lisp
2021-01-17T21:52:56Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T21:56:29Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:00:30Z pillton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T22:02:43Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-17T22:07:00Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-17T22:07:19Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:10:53Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-17T22:14:03Z luckless_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-17T22:14:18Z puchacz joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:16:18Z luckless_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:16:31Z luckless_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-17T22:16:31Z hendursaga quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-17T22:16:31Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-17T22:16:31Z cantstanya quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-17T22:16:31Z madage quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-17T22:18:20Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-17T22:21:52Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-17T22:24:58Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:25:03Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:27:53Z luckless_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:28:04Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:29:14Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:35:24Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:35:34Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:36:55Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:37:40Z gnuhack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T22:40:02Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T22:49:55Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T22:51:39Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:55:57Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T22:58:49Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-17T22:59:14Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:02:22Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-17T23:02:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:03:38Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T23:06:03Z mrcom_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:06:19Z miasuji quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-17T23:06:59Z mrcom_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T23:07:12Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:07:17Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-17T23:07:30Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:08:55Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-17T23:11:37Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-17T23:12:14Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:13:26Z miasuji quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T23:15:13Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:17:23Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T23:18:51Z GuerrillaMonkey quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-17T23:19:01Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:19:52Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:20:11Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T23:21:35Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T23:21:36Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T23:21:39Z tomaw_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:21:47Z tomaw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T23:22:04Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T23:22:12Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:22:22Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:22:27Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:22:43Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:26:19Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-17T23:26:23Z pillton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-17T23:30:54Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-17T23:33:02Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T23:33:09Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:33:29Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:35:05Z livoreno joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:41:12Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T23:41:19Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-17T23:41:44Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:42:27Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:48:30Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-17T23:49:41Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:52:17Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:56:42Z euandreh quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-17T23:57:09Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-17T23:59:05Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-18T00:01:37Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T00:07:44Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-18T00:11:39Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-18T00:13:49Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-18T00:15:41Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T00:17:47Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-18T00:21:09Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-18T00:22:11Z euandreh quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-18T00:23:04Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-18T00:23:43Z euandreh quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-18T00:24:34Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-18T00:25:46Z euandreh quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-18T00:26:16Z mister_m quit (Quit: b)
2021-01-18T00:27:13Z mister_m joined #lisp
2021-01-18T00:28:04Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-18T00:29:32Z euandreh quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-18T00:30:04Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-18T00:37:58Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-18T00:38:24Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-18T00:40:33Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T00:45:35Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T00:46:45Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T00:53:15Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T00:56:47Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-18T01:05:18Z charles`: Can someone help me understand ~/.cache/common-lisp/ ? Does that allow me to compile a system once, then next time I load it, asdf will just load the already compiled version?
2021-01-18T01:05:55Z waleee-cl: charles`:  yup
2021-01-18T01:09:40Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T01:12:32Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-18T01:13:46Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-18T01:16:48Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T01:18:38Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T01:20:32Z charles`: So should I be able to use quicklisp to install a system, then restart lisp, then load using asdf without quicklisp or recompilation?
2021-01-18T01:21:49Z aeth: That sounds right, but you could test it.
2021-01-18T01:22:07Z aeth: For the most part, Quicklisp is used because it will download something if it hasn't already been download it.
2021-01-18T01:22:14Z Xach: charles`: there's a catch, though
2021-01-18T01:22:20Z aeth: s/hasn't already been downloaded it/hasn't already been downloaded/
2021-01-18T01:22:42Z Xach: charles`: if you don't load quicklisp at all, it's possible that the directory it's found in is not known to asdf, and it won't necessarily load
2021-01-18T01:22:52Z Xach: charles`: but if quicklisp is loaded, asdf will find it and load it
2021-01-18T01:24:08Z charles`: I can see the compiled files in ~/.cache/common-lisp/
2021-01-18T01:24:12Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-18T01:26:54Z charles`: Do I need to configure asdf to look at ~/.cache to find them? is ~/.cache an asdf thing or quicklisp thing. I can't find ~/.cache in asdf manual
2021-01-18T01:28:24Z Xach: charles`: ~/.cache/common-lisp/ is an asdf thing.
2021-01-18T01:28:58Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-18T01:29:36Z charles`: I see, I found it
2021-01-18T01:29:45Z aeth: It should be something along the lines of (uiop:merge-pathnames* #P"common-lisp/" (uiop:xdg-config-home))
2021-01-18T01:29:54Z Xach: It is in the manual
2021-01-18T01:29:55Z aeth: In practice, ~/.cache/common-lisp/ except on Windows
2021-01-18T01:31:47Z Fare joined #lisp
2021-01-18T01:31:52Z charles`: If my compiled files are in cache, why does asdf still need quicklisp to find them? It can find the main project, but can't find the systems that were pulled in by quicklisp (but are still in cache)
2021-01-18T01:32:27Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-18T01:32:39Z aeth: charles`: My guess is Quicklisp adds some directories, like ~/quicklisp/local-projects/, that aren't default directories in ASDF.
2021-01-18T01:33:39Z Xach: There's no need to guess.
2021-01-18T01:33:57Z Xach: Finding systems to load, and loading their cached compiled fasls, are very distinct operations.
2021-01-18T01:34:12Z Xach: If the system cannot be found, its cached fasls cannot be loaded.
2021-01-18T01:34:49Z Xach: Quicklisp augments "find a system" part when it is loaded.
2021-01-18T01:35:07Z charles`: so I need to keep the .asd files around even if the actual code i already compiled
2021-01-18T01:35:31Z Xach: charles`: yes, but there are exceptions there too, like monofasls. that gets into some territory i don't know much about.
2021-01-18T01:37:09Z Alfr: charles`, you'll likely also need to keep whole system around, e.g. sbcl will refuse to load fasls not output with the exact same build.
2021-01-18T01:37:21Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-18T01:37:32Z charles`: I'm not using sbcl :)
2021-01-18T01:39:54Z charles`: I'm interested in this monofasl business
2021-01-18T01:39:55Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-18T01:40:30Z Xach: charles`: the output is a single file you can load and your whole system is loaded.
2021-01-18T01:40:58Z charles`: including, dependency systems?
2021-01-18T01:41:47Z charles`: from the manual, it seems so
2021-01-18T01:42:02Z Xach: that's how i understand it
2021-01-18T01:42:17Z charles`: This is awsome, CL is just perfect
2021-01-18T01:44:08Z Alfr: charles`, you want monolithic-compile-bundle-op I think. You can also dump a (executable) image of a loaded system, if you prefer that.
2021-01-18T01:44:44Z charles`: Yes, I think so
2021-01-18T01:44:46Z emaczen joined #lisp
2021-01-18T01:45:08Z Alfr: s|a loaded system|loaded systems and with a custom entry point/function|
2021-01-18T01:45:57Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T01:51:16Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-18T01:54:49Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-18T01:56:02Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T01:59:43Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-18T02:02:22Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:05:40Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:08:11Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-18T02:08:28Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:08:57Z emaczen: What is the state of OSX development with CCL?
2021-01-18T02:09:35Z Dizidentu quit (K-Lined)
2021-01-18T02:09:35Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-18T02:10:48Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:14:37Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:17:00Z sm2n_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:17:18Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:17:28Z HiRE quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:17:37Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:17:43Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:18:10Z gabot quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:18:13Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:18:25Z pyc_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:18:31Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:18:32Z pyc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:18:41Z gabot joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:18:47Z rozengla` joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:18:48Z python47` joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:18:52Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:18:58Z eschatologist joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:19:01Z leo_song_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:19:25Z perrier-jouet quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:19:25Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:19:25Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:20:01Z rozenglass quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:20:01Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:20:33Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:20:34Z copec joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:20:53Z Codaraxis__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T02:21:03Z dbotton: What is the term used in the Lisp world for an interface in lisp for a c api? In the Ada world we call it a binding for example a binding to the win32 api.
2021-01-18T02:21:04Z snits joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:22:38Z Xach: dbotton: it's also called a binding
2021-01-18T02:22:47Z dbotton: Thanks
2021-01-18T02:22:47Z plisp: what planet do you think we're from ;)
2021-01-18T02:22:48Z HiRE joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:23:08Z dbotton: Land of lisp
2021-01-18T02:23:37Z Alfr: dbotton, also called a foreign function interface, covering more than only functions though.
2021-01-18T02:24:28Z dbotton: Xach what is considered the appropriate level of stability for a project to be in quickslip?
2021-01-18T02:24:34Z Xach: dbotton: it should compile
2021-01-18T02:25:11Z Xach: i do not reject anything on quality or maturity or stability grounds. if you want it to be part of quicklisp, and it builds, it will very likely become part of quicklisp.
2021-01-18T02:25:12Z Alfr: plisp, isn't planet lisp a blog?
2021-01-18T02:25:21Z Xach: there are a few exceptions but they are uncommon
2021-01-18T02:25:41Z Xach: oh, it also should not be single-implementation
2021-01-18T02:25:52Z Xach: and the license must permit redistribution as quicklisp does
2021-01-18T02:26:00Z Xach: "in the manner" quicklisp does, that is
2021-01-18T02:26:47Z dbotton: So far I am checking my clog project against ecl and sbcl
2021-01-18T02:27:19Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n
2021-01-18T02:27:25Z plisp: Alfr: looks like it is
2021-01-18T02:27:39Z Xach: dbotton: what does clog do?
2021-01-18T02:28:18Z dbotton: It is is a gui and web framework
2021-01-18T02:28:46Z dbotton: You program the web in a VB style of programing
2021-01-18T02:28:56Z Xach: if it's really hard for me to install prerequisite foreign libraries that can be a stumbling block
2021-01-18T02:28:57Z dbotton: Everything is done with websockets
2021-01-18T02:29:10Z miasuji joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:29:26Z dbotton: Only clack is needed
2021-01-18T02:29:37Z miasuji quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T02:30:23Z dbotton: Since it is a "live" connection to a browser window (or a browser control say in an Xcode project on Mac etc)
2021-01-18T02:30:52Z dbotton: It replaces the need for most gui and web work frameworks
2021-01-18T02:31:12Z dbotton: I have used the Ada version I wrote for years
2021-01-18T02:31:39Z dbotton: For gui's to embedded systems, websites etc
2021-01-18T02:32:35Z Xach: cool
2021-01-18T02:32:46Z dbotton: http://office.botton.com:8080 wrote a game demo I have up for the moment - all code is LISP not html or javascript
2021-01-18T02:33:21Z dbotton: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/demos/01-snake-game.lisp
2021-01-18T02:33:36Z dbotton: That is the source
2021-01-18T02:34:00Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie)
2021-01-18T02:34:16Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:34:43Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-18T02:35:56Z Xach: very cool
2021-01-18T02:36:10Z dbotton: Still trying to improve my lisp
2021-01-18T02:36:40Z dbotton: Only three months or so now... anything you can suggest always welcome.
2021-01-18T02:37:04Z dbotton: I hope the api not too far from something lispy
2021-01-18T02:37:21Z dbotton: As I go I'll improve on that end as well
2021-01-18T02:38:11Z Dizidentu joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:38:33Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-18T02:39:28Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-18T02:39:35Z dbotton: I hope to generate some hype for Common Lisp too with it
2021-01-18T02:39:46Z dbotton: I really am enjoying the language and tools
2021-01-18T02:41:09Z Dizidentu quit (K-Lined)
2021-01-18T02:42:57Z Xach: must be cool to use something that is at least 3x more popular than ada
2021-01-18T02:43:17Z Xach: (that is a joke, i do not know if it is 3x more popular.)
2021-01-18T02:47:06Z dbotton: At one time (when I got in to Ada) it was more popular :)
2021-01-18T02:47:58Z Dizidentu joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:48:20Z dbotton: A number of factors push Ada to just be a very very niche "product" so despite my love of the language that bought me here
2021-01-18T02:48:50Z dbotton: Both are almost as old as each others and total opposites
2021-01-18T02:49:44Z dbotton: Still can't figure why I never looked in to lisp
2021-01-18T02:50:20Z dbotton: I've written projects in just about all else
2021-01-18T02:52:15Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:54:46Z charles`: dbottom: I'm also working on a websocket based web toolkit
2021-01-18T02:54:53Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T02:56:50Z charles`: s/dbottom/dbotton/
2021-01-18T02:57:36Z dbotton: Have a place to see it?
2021-01-18T02:57:47Z charles`: Do you mean a demo or documentation?
2021-01-18T02:58:02Z dbotton: Any of the above
2021-01-18T02:58:28Z charles`: there is documentation on github: github.com/interactive-ssr
2021-01-18T02:59:01Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:00:53Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:00:58Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-18T03:01:23Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-18T03:01:29Z dbotton: I'll take a deeper look soon
2021-01-18T03:02:02Z dbotton: CLOG's goal is for you to "feel" like you are programing in Visual Basic
2021-01-18T03:02:29Z charles`: we definitely have different goals
2021-01-18T03:02:33Z dbotton: :)
2021-01-18T03:02:42Z ak5 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T03:03:12Z dbotton: CLOG as a gui is also interesting for teaching
2021-01-18T03:03:26Z dbotton: As it is a "parallel" gui
2021-01-18T03:03:48Z dbotton: You have to learn to deal with tasking from the start etc
2021-01-18T03:04:52Z dbotton: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/08-tutorial.lisp
2021-01-18T03:05:03Z dbotton: That tutorial uses mouse and touch events
2021-01-18T03:07:38Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie)
2021-01-18T03:08:28Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-18T03:09:42Z charles`: interesting, what http server are you using for clack websocket-driver
2021-01-18T03:10:00Z charles`: looks like hunchentoot?
2021-01-18T03:13:15Z dbotton: yes
2021-01-18T03:14:30Z charles`: I had trouble with that on chrome with large messages.
2021-01-18T03:14:38Z dbotton: Working well in my tests so far, clog-connections is fairly decoupled, so should be easy to switch
2021-01-18T03:14:54Z dbotton: Could by since the msgs I send are tiny
2021-01-18T03:15:15Z dbotton: If have suggestions always open to try other things later
2021-01-18T03:15:18Z charles`: Will your messages be tiny if the user wants to upload a file?
2021-01-18T03:15:38Z dbotton: I would use http for that not websockets
2021-01-18T03:16:51Z charles`: wise choice
2021-01-18T03:17:37Z dbotton: In the Ada version I have a long-post version not using websockets at all
2021-01-18T03:17:57Z dbotton: Even an automatic fall back if websockets not available
2021-01-18T03:18:02Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:18:07Z dbotton: (Once upon a time that was the case)
2021-01-18T03:18:38Z ak5 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:19:59Z sm2n_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:21:22Z pyc joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:22:07Z earenndil joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:22:10Z pyc_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T03:22:10Z livoreno quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T03:22:10Z moon-child quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T03:22:10Z fengshaun quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T03:22:15Z tomaw_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T03:22:19Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T03:22:24Z fengshaun joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:22:25Z tomaw joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:22:54Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T03:22:54Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T03:23:19Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:24:25Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-18T03:25:03Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-18T03:25:38Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:25:54Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:29:36Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:29:55Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:30:27Z dbotton: You should already with what is there in the CLOG project be able to write a Web App, use ecl to embedded in an Android app and iOS using a browser control, then use sbcl or another to take the same app and embed in an Xcode project, and MS “new” app whatever they call them this month, and a GTK app with a webkit window on Linux.
2021-01-18T03:30:30Z luckless_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T03:31:18Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:31:27Z asarch: One stupid question: how do you open a binary file with WITH-OPEN-FILE?
2021-01-18T03:32:54Z asarch: :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)?
2021-01-18T03:34:47Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:37:22Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:37:57Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-18T03:50:02Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T03:52:59Z earenndil: yeah
2021-01-18T03:53:02Z earenndil is now known as moon-child
2021-01-18T03:53:48Z moon-child: if you just want everything in a vector: (with-open-file (fp fn :direction :input :if-does-not-exist :error :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) (let ((buf (make-array (file-length fp) :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)))) (read-sequence buf fp) buf))
2021-01-18T03:54:38Z loke[m]: moon-child: What you said is correct, but the idea of using FILE-LENGTH to determine the amount of data to read is problematic.
2021-01-18T03:54:53Z loke[m]: The only use of FILE-LENGTH should be for display purposes.
2021-01-18T03:57:07Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-18T03:57:36Z asarch: Bingo! And how do you write binary data into it? WRITE? PRINT? FORMAT?
2021-01-18T04:00:08Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T04:00:43Z moon-child: loke[m]: what's wrong with using file-length for that purpose?  And what would be better?
2021-01-18T04:01:15Z pillton: asarch: write-sequence
2021-01-18T04:01:25Z asarch: Thank you!
2021-01-18T04:01:27Z asarch: :-)
2021-01-18T04:01:41Z loke[m]: moon-child: You read until the call to READ-SEQUENCE returns an end of file status.
2021-01-18T04:02:25Z loke[m]: You can use FILE-LENGTH to determine the initial size of the array, then make the array adjustable, and read until there is nothing else to read.
2021-01-18T04:02:35Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T04:05:26Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T04:07:01Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T04:07:08Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T04:10:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-18T04:10:57Z Oladon: In case anyone has lost the unlocking devices for their automobile, I just found them in my code. :)
2021-01-18T04:10:59Z Oladon: Morning, beach!
2021-01-18T04:12:08Z emaczen: morning beach
2021-01-18T04:17:05Z moon-child: loke[m]: oh yea fair enough
2021-01-18T04:19:03Z Fare joined #lisp
2021-01-18T04:23:15Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T04:23:32Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T04:26:36Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T04:47:21Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-18T04:53:36Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T05:00:06Z igemnace quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T05:02:45Z thmprover quit (Quit: [Exit, pursued by bear])
2021-01-18T05:07:15Z asarch: I'm doing a small web server with Caveman2 in order to send files from my cellphone to my laptop, and in the POST request, the content of the file is a type of RAW-BODY: #<CIRCULAR-STREAMS:CIRCULAR-INPUT-STREAM {1007C409E3}>, how could I send it to a WRITE-SEQUENCE?
2021-01-18T05:07:53Z asarch: I cannot find the CIRCULAR-INPUT-STREAM function
2021-01-18T05:08:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T05:11:00Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-18T05:13:10Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-18T05:15:13Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T05:18:39Z gioyik_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-18T05:20:23Z loke[m]: If you want to copy an input stream to an output stream, you can use UIOP:COPY-STREAM-TO-STREAM.
2021-01-18T05:22:37Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-18T05:25:39Z ak5 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-18T05:27:43Z zmv joined #lisp
2021-01-18T05:31:29Z asarch: Ok
2021-01-18T05:31:38Z mikecheck quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T05:33:26Z mikecheck joined #lisp
2021-01-18T05:34:10Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T05:38:13Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T05:39:41Z mikecheck quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T05:41:13Z mikecheck joined #lisp
2021-01-18T05:43:02Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-18T05:45:02Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-18T05:45:49Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T05:50:42Z sun294712564 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T05:52:48Z sun294712564 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-18T05:56:17Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T05:56:21Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-18T05:56:50Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-18T05:59:31Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-18T06:00:33Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T06:01:47Z xantoz joined #lisp
2021-01-18T06:03:22Z v3ga: so are sly-stickers useful when debugging? or whats the best way to go about stepping through a function or procedure with sbcl/sly?
2021-01-18T06:05:33Z charles`: you can place a sticker to "set a breakpoint" and enable break on stickers
2021-01-18T06:06:03Z charles`: then it will break when it reaches your sticker without having to add (break) and recompile
2021-01-18T06:08:42Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-18T06:08:49Z v3ga: charles`: ahh ok, I see now. that's how they're used... ok i'll write something longer and play with it
2021-01-18T06:09:22Z charles`: I really wish you could start single stepping after encountering a break, but I haven't figured that out yet
2021-01-18T06:09:58Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T06:12:28Z loke[m]: charles` you can. Just press s in SLIME.
2021-01-18T06:13:34Z v3ga: also with step....i'm using the gentle introduction to symbolic comp book. they're using a different lisp implementation but surrounding a function with (step ...) doesn't give the same feedback as the book.
2021-01-18T06:13:47Z v3ga: thats really what I was looking for when I discovered stickers
2021-01-18T06:13:54Z charles`: when, I do that it steps into some system function
2021-01-18T06:14:13Z charles`: (step ... ) especially doesn't work well with event driven development
2021-01-18T06:16:35Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-18T06:16:40Z v3ga: yeah i do get that much,  maybe i'm misinterpreting what the book shows. i was expecting even for this small function for it to go through each bit. ah well. it's late, maybe i'm senile for the night
2021-01-18T06:17:07Z rixard_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T06:17:56Z rixard joined #lisp
2021-01-18T06:38:53Z mankaev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T06:45:29Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T06:45:37Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-18T06:56:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T06:56:21Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-18T06:58:24Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-18T06:59:57Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-18T06:59:57Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T07:01:16Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-18T07:01:36Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-18T07:03:10Z cabaire joined #lisp
2021-01-18T07:04:11Z cabaire quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-18T07:10:29Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-18T07:10:42Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-18T07:12:23Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T07:16:48Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-18T07:19:45Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T07:22:02Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-18T07:26:30Z python47` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T07:27:50Z frgo quit
2021-01-18T07:28:04Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T07:29:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T07:32:51Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-18T07:33:49Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-18T07:40:31Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-18T07:44:27Z j0nd0e` joined #lisp
2021-01-18T07:48:06Z j0nd0e quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T07:50:24Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-18T07:55:15Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:03:59Z rgherdt_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:09:48Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:13:26Z nostoi joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:19:38Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:27:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T08:27:43Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:27:43Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-18T08:27:43Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:29:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:34:30Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:35:23Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:38:20Z nostoi quit (Quit: Verlassend)
2021-01-18T08:41:59Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:43:03Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:43:48Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-18T08:46:19Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T08:51:05Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-18T09:03:17Z flip214: wasn't there a way to do performance comparisons across the various implementation via some web interface? paste a few lines, get a performance table back?
2021-01-18T09:03:21Z flip214: Or is that on cl.net?
2021-01-18T09:06:05Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-18T09:06:24Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T09:09:34Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-18T09:11:35Z anticrisis quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T09:15:48Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-18T09:16:31Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T09:16:47Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-18T09:21:22Z davd33 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T09:22:32Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-18T09:22:39Z asarch: What is a #<VECTOR-INPUT-STREAM {10053AD8A3}>?
2021-01-18T09:25:33Z edgar-rft: asarch:  sounds like some sort of input-stream buffer
2021-01-18T09:25:58Z loke[m]:     asarch probably a custom GREY-STREAMS implementation.
2021-01-18T09:26:12Z loke[m]: Probably a grey-streams implementation.
2021-01-18T09:27:47Z Nilby: (documentaion 'flexi-streams:vector-input-stream 'structure) => "A binary input stream that gets its data from an associated vector of octets."
2021-01-18T09:28:33Z asarch: Wow!
2021-01-18T09:28:35Z asarch: Thank you!
2021-01-18T09:28:40Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-)
2021-01-18T09:29:15Z Nilby: You're welcome. Many things can be learned from the documentation function.
2021-01-18T09:29:41Z Nilby: and apropos
2021-01-18T09:30:56Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-18T09:31:37Z asarch: (documentaion 'flexi-streams:vector-input-stream 'structure) => ; Evaluation aborted on #<SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-PACKAGE-ERROR "The symbol ~S is not external in the ~A package." {1004943783}>.
2021-01-18T09:31:38Z asarch: :-(
2021-01-18T09:32:42Z phoe: flexi-streams:vector-input-stream doesn't seem to be external
2021-01-18T09:33:05Z phoe: but, (documentation 'flexi-streams::vector-input-stream 'structure) works on my machine
2021-01-18T09:33:42Z Nilby: oh my bad, I did it on vectpr-stream
2021-01-18T09:34:52Z Nilby: hasty with the completion results
2021-01-18T09:36:42Z phoe: (documentation 'flexi-streams::vector-stream 'structure) also works on my machine
2021-01-18T09:37:56Z edgar-rft: I'm seriously wondering what's faster, reading the source code or fiddle out the correct cl:documentation syntax.
2021-01-18T09:38:06Z phoe: M-.
2021-01-18T09:38:15Z edgar-rft: true :-)
2021-01-18T09:38:22Z phoe: that's the fastest
2021-01-18T09:38:34Z phoe: and the docstring is also there, unless the code contains docstrings set in another location
2021-01-18T09:38:43Z Nilby: in reality I only typed: "doc vector-input-stream" , but I know y'all can't do that
2021-01-18T09:40:04Z edgar-rft: wrong, we *can* type that, but it will probably not have the same effect :-)
2021-01-18T09:41:33Z Nilby: true, and I even actually typed "doc M-S-,"
2021-01-18T09:42:26Z Nilby: and highlighted the thing
2021-01-18T09:43:31Z Nilby: if I was really doing irc in fully loaded client it should be just one keystroke
2021-01-18T09:44:45Z Nilby: on genera you can mouse over anything and do all that
2021-01-18T09:44:59Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-18T09:45:53Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-18T09:48:14Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T09:49:09Z Oddity- joined #lisp
2021-01-18T09:51:45Z asarch: :help i-need-somebody
2021-01-18T09:51:58Z asarch: :help not-just-anybody
2021-01-18T09:52:02Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T09:54:46Z Nilby: lyrics-apropos ?
2021-01-18T09:56:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T09:56:20Z asarch: Yeah! :-)
2021-01-18T09:56:49Z asarch: Well, have a nice day guys
2021-01-18T09:56:53Z asarch: See you later
2021-01-18T09:56:56Z asarch: (sb-ext:bed)
2021-01-18T09:57:06Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T09:57:37Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:04:34Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-18T10:05:32Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T10:06:12Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:11:39Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T10:12:22Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T10:13:03Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:13:47Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:14:07Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:26:59Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T10:28:18Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:29:30Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:30:37Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T10:31:40Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T10:33:27Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:37:25Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T10:37:41Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:40:17Z OlCe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T10:41:55Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T10:43:28Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:44:05Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:45:11Z j0nd0e` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T10:47:38Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:48:14Z podge joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:50:32Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:51:16Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T10:51:51Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-18T10:52:33Z Codaraxis__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T11:03:51Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T11:05:39Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-18T11:08:49Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-18T11:09:34Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
2021-01-18T11:09:57Z davd33 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T11:10:24Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T11:12:16Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T11:19:40Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-18T11:19:41Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-18T11:21:44Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T11:25:29Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-18T11:32:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T11:32:24Z xificurC joined #lisp
2021-01-18T11:32:31Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T11:37:47Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-18T11:38:37Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T11:45:38Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-18T11:47:27Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-18T11:56:46Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:00:06Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:02:14Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-18T12:07:47Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-18T12:08:32Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T12:10:07Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:11:20Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:13:08Z paul0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T12:13:21Z notzmv` joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:13:50Z paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:14:29Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T12:16:39Z Dizidentu quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-18T12:18:44Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:33:43Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:36:05Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T12:36:44Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:39:56Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T12:43:47Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-18T12:44:06Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Quit: Bye !)
2021-01-18T12:44:44Z madnificent quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-18T12:44:51Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:44:54Z madnificent joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:45:00Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:45:25Z dim quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
2021-01-18T12:45:46Z dim joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:47:06Z mgsk_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.0 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-18T12:47:16Z mgsk_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:47:39Z mrios22 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T12:48:09Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Quit: Gone.)
2021-01-18T12:48:31Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:48:45Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T12:48:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T12:49:22Z rlp10 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T12:49:29Z rlp10 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:50:03Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T12:50:40Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:54:49Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T12:56:02Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:56:29Z shka_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z mikecheck quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z euandreh quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z perrier-jouet quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z skapata quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z Lord_of_Life quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z luna_is_here quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z beach quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z penguwin quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z cg505 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z slyrus1 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z elflng quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z ane quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z [d] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z jackhill quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z Xach quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z Ziemas quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z vaporatorius__ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z flazh quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z dwts quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z mgsk quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z Jesin quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z renzhi quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z parjanya quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z samebchase quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z phoe6245 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z specbot quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z datajerk quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:30Z IPmonger quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:31Z dieggsy quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:31Z matijja quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:31Z jasom quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:31Z phantomics quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-18T12:56:31Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T12:57:23Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:57:53Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:58:32Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z mikecheck joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z luna_is_here joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z beach joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z penguwin joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z cg505 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z slyrus1 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z elflng joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z ane joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z jackhill joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z Xach joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z Ziemas joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z flazh joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z dwts joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z mgsk joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z parjanya joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z samebchase joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z phoe6245 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z specbot joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z datajerk joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z matijja joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z jasom joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:11Z phantomics joined #lisp
2021-01-18T12:59:13Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T13:00:13Z thecoffemaker quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:00:28Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:01:00Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:01:40Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:01:44Z mgsk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:02:12Z mgsk joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:02:42Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:02:45Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:02:53Z exit70[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:02:53Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:02:57Z keizerrijk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:02:57Z ey[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:02:57Z jonas[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:02:57Z backinaweek[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:02:58Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:07Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:08Z jdormit[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:08Z ThaEwat quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:09Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:12Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:14Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:17Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:17Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:17Z Lolicon[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:18Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:18Z cairn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:26Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:39Z anotherone9999[m quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:39Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:39Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:03:45Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:04:55Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:05:04Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:05:25Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:05:34Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:05:34Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:05:47Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:06:15Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:06:49Z malaclyps_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:06:49Z santiagopim[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:07:06Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:17:08Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:18:54Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:19:42Z backinaweek[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:19:48Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:20:18Z exit70[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:21:58Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:22:31Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:23:02Z davd33 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:23:45Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:23:50Z cairn joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:24:23Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:26:19Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:26:26Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:27:05Z keizerrijk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:28:00Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:34:12Z keizerrijk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:34:38Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:34:56Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:35:04Z exit70[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:35:05Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:35:05Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:35:14Z backinaweek[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:35:14Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:35:21Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:37:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:38:46Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:39:26Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:40:04Z cairn quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-18T13:43:04Z puchacz joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:45:35Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:46:45Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:47:48Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:48:46Z xificurC quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-18T13:49:14Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-18T13:49:28Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:49:29Z ey[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:49:30Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:50:56Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:50:57Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:51:46Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:51:46Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:53:23Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:54:17Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:54:43Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:54:45Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:55:12Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:55:14Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:55:20Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:56:24Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:56:32Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:57:20Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:57:21Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:59:03Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:59:30Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:59:30Z malaclyps_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T13:59:32Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:00:26Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:01:16Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:01:54Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:03:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-18T14:04:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:04:33Z cairn joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:04:45Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:05:06Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:06:38Z keizerrijk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:07:48Z backinaweek[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:10:02Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T14:10:18Z exit70[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:12:36Z notzmv`` joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:12:52Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:12:55Z zmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T14:13:41Z notzmv` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T14:13:49Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:14:18Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:14:38Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:14:54Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:14:57Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:24:16Z Gnuxie[m]: ey: I think the bridge broke, but yes you can't rely on TCO if you want your code to be portable
2021-01-18T14:25:07Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T14:27:04Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-18T14:27:55Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:30:12Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T14:32:16Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:35:21Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:39:46Z galex-713 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-18T14:45:35Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:48:53Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:48:55Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T14:52:28Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-18T14:53:27Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T14:55:00Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-18T14:55:21Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:00:05Z HDurer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T15:03:19Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T15:03:37Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:03:49Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T15:05:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T15:06:55Z notzmv`` left #lisp
2021-01-18T15:07:54Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:09:10Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:11:53Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T15:13:14Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T15:13:28Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:16:24Z alexm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:16:33Z livoreno joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:17:53Z alexm_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-18T15:18:28Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:19:38Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T15:24:50Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T15:29:11Z Fare joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:31:46Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:35:47Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T15:36:27Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:40:07Z varjag: i guess this been asked before, but… is there any cl atm that runs on m1
2021-01-18T15:40:09Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:41:12Z HDurer joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:42:45Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-18T15:43:34Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:44:43Z narimiran quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-18T15:45:07Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:45:09Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:45:15Z phoe: afaik sbcl over rosetta
2021-01-18T15:47:02Z Xach: varjag: rainer joswig (@lispm) has written about it a bit on twitter
2021-01-18T15:48:37Z varjag: aha… thanks
2021-01-18T15:51:20Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-18T15:54:51Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T15:55:32Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-18T15:55:35Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-18T16:01:15Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-18T16:06:32Z charles`: I've read that armedbear runs on m1 because jvm
2021-01-18T16:07:22Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T16:07:54Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T16:08:15Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-18T16:09:04Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-18T16:09:29Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-18T16:14:13Z phoe: that too
2021-01-18T16:15:09Z puchacz: what is m1
2021-01-18T16:15:40Z sjl: the new Apple machines
2021-01-18T16:16:00Z puchacz: ah, the arm ones?
2021-01-18T16:16:26Z sjl: Yeah, these https://www.apple.com/mac/m1/
2021-01-18T16:16:35Z puchacz: tks
2021-01-18T16:17:08Z sjl: stas' macbook got funded despite the paypall issues so presumably SBCL will eventually run there without rosetta
2021-01-18T16:24:12Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp
2021-01-18T16:24:55Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T16:27:38Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-18T16:27:38Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-18T16:40:54Z frodef` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T16:42:27Z sauvin_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T16:42:41Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-18T16:43:19Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-18T16:44:48Z Yardanico quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T16:45:18Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T16:45:18Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T16:45:18Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T16:45:18Z tassleoff quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-18T16:45:37Z Yardanico joined #lisp
2021-01-18T16:45:43Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-18T16:45:44Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-18T16:51:59Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T16:53:26Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T16:53:27Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-18T16:57:46Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T16:58:22Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-18T16:59:16Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:04:25Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T17:04:29Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:04:44Z notzmv`` joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:06:15Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:08:12Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:08:20Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-18T17:09:25Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T17:12:45Z notzmv`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T17:13:06Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-18T17:15:40Z notzmv``` joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:17:28Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T17:19:08Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:19:22Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:26:06Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T17:27:12Z notzmv``` is now known as notzmv
2021-01-18T17:27:31Z notzmv quit (Changing host)
2021-01-18T17:27:31Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:28:55Z podge quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-01-18T17:31:00Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:32:51Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:34:35Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:35:49Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:48:04Z Krystof joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:53:16Z n3t joined #lisp
2021-01-18T17:55:09Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-18T17:55:09Z n3t: Hello. I'm looking for general (i.e. not only CL) LISP-related Freenode channels. Where should I go?
2021-01-18T17:55:23Z jackdaniel: n3t: ##lisp, #lispcafe
2021-01-18T17:55:55Z jackdaniel: also, for specific lisps: this channel, #scheme, #racket, #clojure
2021-01-18T17:56:07Z n3t: jackdaniel: thank you!
2021-01-18T17:56:09Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-01-18T17:56:35Z jackdaniel: also, #emacs, if you have elisp questions, however it is more editor-channel
2021-01-18T17:56:49Z n3t: ack
2021-01-18T18:00:58Z ggoes quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
2021-01-18T18:01:23Z ggoes joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:01:30Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-18T18:03:14Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T18:04:49Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:05:48Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:09:07Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T18:09:27Z hineios joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:09:32Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:12:41Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:23:00Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T18:28:52Z puchacz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-18T18:28:56Z tassleoff quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-18T18:29:32Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-18T18:31:43Z samlamamma joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:33:54Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:33:54Z puchacz joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:34:35Z samlamamma: You can't get the direct superclasses given some class, right? Like #'compute-direct-superclasses doesn't exist in the standard
2021-01-18T18:35:01Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:37:25Z jackdaniel: samlamamma: how about (c2mop:class-direct-superclasses (find-class 'integer)) ;?
2021-01-18T18:37:30Z jackdaniel: you don't compute them
2021-01-18T18:37:33Z jackdaniel: because they are given
2021-01-18T18:38:21Z jackdaniel: (also, for completness, #'c2mop:class-direct-subclasses - of course)
2021-01-18T18:38:46Z samlamamma: Oh hey, cool
2021-01-18T18:39:26Z jackdaniel: shush, I want warm (-15°C here)
2021-01-18T18:39:45Z samlamamma: -1C here, I'm honestly disappointed
2021-01-18T18:41:58Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:45:25Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:52:27Z samlamamma left #lisp
2021-01-18T18:54:00Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:54:46Z narimiran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T18:55:10Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-18T18:58:11Z Achylles joined #lisp
2021-01-18T19:19:50Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T19:20:24Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-18T19:20:37Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T19:22:16Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-18T19:23:26Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T19:27:44Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-18T19:29:42Z srandon111 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T19:30:37Z Achylles quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T19:38:26Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T19:38:26Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T19:38:55Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-18T19:40:24Z dbotton: Clear
2021-01-18T19:43:05Z Oladon: Hrm. My build script has mysteriously stopped working.
2021-01-18T19:43:51Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-18T19:44:53Z Fare joined #lisp
2021-01-18T19:45:23Z dbotton: (Oh my I guess typed that in to wrong window :)
2021-01-18T19:47:57Z euandreh quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-18T19:51:41Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-18T19:54:08Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T19:55:38Z edgar-rft: that might explain the mystery
2021-01-18T19:56:38Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T19:58:36Z davd33 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-18T20:00:13Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T20:00:27Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:00:42Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:02:29Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T20:03:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:05:16Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T20:06:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T20:06:51Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:08:07Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:09:51Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:09:51Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:11:14Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T20:11:42Z leo_song_: one of my friend tested the amd64 version of sbcl on m1, the performance is good
2021-01-18T20:12:34Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-18T20:13:27Z ech joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:19:25Z srandon111 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T20:22:00Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T20:22:36Z sauvin_ is now known as Sauvin
2021-01-18T20:33:05Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-18T20:33:31Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:33:44Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T20:34:57Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:37:05Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T20:38:44Z dbotton_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:39:56Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T20:41:23Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T20:41:50Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:42:25Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:47:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T20:47:45Z Volt_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:50:08Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:54:07Z phoe: Xach: I'll actually ask here again to avoid offtopic
2021-01-18T20:54:13Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:54:33Z phoe: is it feasible/possible to upgrade Quicklisp's fallback ASDF from 2.26?
2021-01-18T20:54:38Z dbotton_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-18T20:54:55Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T20:56:41Z garf_beans joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:57:14Z Xach: phoe: it's feasible
2021-01-18T20:57:27Z Xach: phoe: i don't want to push past any implementation's bundled 3.x though.
2021-01-18T20:57:38Z Xach: so whoever has the oldest 3.x will set the floor
2021-01-18T20:58:39Z Volt__ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T20:59:02Z Volt_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T20:59:02Z Volt__ is now known as Volt_
2021-01-18T21:00:53Z aeth: How do you update ASDF?
2021-01-18T21:01:12Z phoe: load a newer one
2021-01-18T21:01:37Z aeth: Quickload it?
2021-01-18T21:02:25Z Xach: aeth: that's one option. (load "asdf.lisp") is another. you could mix a compile-file into there too.
2021-01-18T21:04:23Z ralt: Xach: what's the reasoning behind not having anything newer than any implementation?
2021-01-18T21:05:02Z aeth: This seems to keep the version the same even though it loads (if you turn silent off): (list (asdf:asdf-version) (progn (ql:quickload :asdf :silent t) (asdf:asdf-version)))
2021-01-18T21:05:07Z aeth: So it's not as easy to upgrade as UIOP...
2021-01-18T21:06:31Z Xach: ralt: I am not interested in pushing an implementation's version past where the implementation maintainers have chosen.
2021-01-18T21:07:39Z aeth: There are a bunch of fixes from 2020 for package-local-nicknames in newer ASDF versions than most (any?) implementations seem to provide. e.g. https://github.com/fare/asdf/search?q=nickname&type=commits
2021-01-18T21:07:43Z aeth: (There might be others.)
2021-01-18T21:08:01Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T21:08:50Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T21:10:02Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-18T21:11:49Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T21:12:13Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T21:12:27Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T21:12:33Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-18T21:12:56Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-18T21:13:12Z Xach: You can quickload asdf if you download asdf sources and put it someplace asdf can find it.
2021-01-18T21:13:37Z phoe: I have local-projects/asdf with the version I want checked out
2021-01-18T21:14:42Z aeth: So I guess if you use something fixed in 2020, you have to get everyone to upgrade ASDF, and you have to have your CI check out the ASDF repo into local-projects
2021-01-18T21:17:46Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T21:26:56Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T21:27:40Z dbotton_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T21:28:59Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T21:29:59Z dbotton_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-18T21:31:25Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T21:33:40Z frodef` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-18T21:34:30Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-18T21:36:26Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T21:36:37Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T21:38:21Z zulu-inuoe joined #lisp
2021-01-18T21:38:26Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T21:42:55Z Xach: Bike: does clasp include asdf?
2021-01-18T21:44:49Z Fare joined #lisp
2021-01-18T21:45:41Z rtypo quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-18T21:54:51Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T21:55:58Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T21:56:18Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp
2021-01-18T21:56:52Z JSambrook_KJ7RDV quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T21:57:06Z garf_beans quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T21:58:31Z Xach: weird, ssl failure when cloning from gitlab.common-lisp.net
2021-01-18T21:58:44Z Xach: (not right away, partway through cloning abcl)
2021-01-18T22:00:30Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T22:01:57Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-18T22:02:36Z Xach: did not repeat
2021-01-18T22:03:39Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T22:05:02Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:06:52Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-18T22:10:29Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-18T22:10:29Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:13:56Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-18T22:22:11Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:22:37Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:23:26Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:27:13Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T22:28:06Z phantomics: a question: why does entering numbers in scientific notation always yield a float? Like 10e10 returns a float when the number can be expressed as an integer. Is there a way to enter numbers in e-notation yielding ints when possible?
2021-01-18T22:29:55Z aeth: You can do (round 10d10) but you'd need enough precision in the original, e.g. 10e10 (equivalent to 10f10 by default) won't give you the exact answer
2021-01-18T22:30:16Z aeth: You have to write it out the long way, e.g. (* 10 (expt 10 10))
2021-01-18T22:30:25Z aeth: you could write a reader macro to simplify that, though
2021-01-18T22:33:35Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T22:34:10Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T22:34:31Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T22:34:40Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-18T22:34:42Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T22:35:06Z ym joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:36:29Z phoe: phantomics: not in the standard Lisp reader
2021-01-18T22:36:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:38:15Z dvdmuckle quit (Quit: Bouncer Surgery)
2021-01-18T22:38:43Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:40:12Z phantomics: I see, thanks aeth and phoe
2021-01-18T22:40:16Z grobe0ba quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T22:40:27Z _death: phantomics: when writing numbers in scientific notation, you deal with real values.. that some of them can also be represented as integers is incidental.. if these translate to a different type, it would be inconvenient because usually a programmer's choice of whether to use floats or integers is explicit
2021-01-18T22:41:10Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:41:22Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T22:41:37Z Codaraxis__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T22:46:44Z makomo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-18T22:46:53Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:50:43Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:50:45Z Bike: Xach: it does yes
2021-01-18T22:50:54Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-18T22:51:33Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:52:12Z grobe0ba joined #lisp
2021-01-18T22:55:31Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:00:15Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:01:47Z aeth: _death: well, I mean... 9.8e10 is an integer and 9.8e0 isn't, but it's not like you couldn't have scientific notation that results in a rational (bignum/bignum, rather than an integer) or error if it's not an integer, or have some rounding rule, or...
2021-01-18T23:04:11Z tinga: I'm trying to run an existing project and it complains that ASDF package doesnt exist, so I added (load "/usr/lib/sbcl/contrib/asdf.fasl") to the init file, now it complains that package QL doesnt exist. I suspect it might be quicklisp but while (load "/usr/share/common-lisp/source/quicklisp/quicklisp.lisp") pointed me to run (quicklisp-quickstart:install), which I did, it now still complains about QL not existing.
2021-01-18T23:04:45Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:04:48Z tinga: What should I be doing?
2021-01-18T23:05:20Z tinga: (This is using sbcl, which is the recommended application of the project.)
2021-01-18T23:06:29Z _death: aeth: 9.8e10 is not an integer in Lisp.. it is an integer in math, but some languages choose to support multiple representations for a single mathematical value..
2021-01-18T23:08:02Z aeth: _death: I mean a mathematical integer. The fact that some words are overloaded with math words with separate meanings can be confusing at times. In Scheme land, they don't do that (except with vector), but then you get the confusion of 9.8 being an integer? so when you're a programmer you really want an exact-integer? instead when you want an integer... and so on.
2021-01-18T23:08:26Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:08:28Z aeth: 9.8e10 results in a mathematical integer so 9.8?10 could produce an integer.
2021-01-18T23:09:03Z _death: aeth: I'm not sure what you're arguing for..
2021-01-18T23:09:19Z aeth: _death: Floating points aren't reals, either. FORTRAN kind of pretends they are.
2021-01-18T23:09:53Z aeth: Anything that can be a float can also become a rational, as long as it's either an exact operation (like 9.8 * 10^10 is) or has a specified rounding precision.
2021-01-18T23:09:56Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:10:38Z aeth: CL has both RATIONAL and RATIONALIZE to do this, with the latter generally producing more intuitive results when working on base-2 (rather than base-10) floats.
2021-01-18T23:11:11Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-18T23:11:22Z _death: all I'm saying is that it would be inconvenient if 9.8e10 is an integer while 9.81e10 is not
2021-01-18T23:11:58Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:12:35Z phoe: (setf *read-default-float-format* 'rational) ;)
2021-01-18T23:12:43Z aeth: _death: You said earlier that scientific notation deals with reals, which isn't true in programming.
2021-01-18T23:13:18Z scymtym: while phoe is joking, SBCL actually has http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Decimal-Syntax-for-Rationals
2021-01-18T23:13:22Z aeth: The only reason why stuff like the scientific notation literals, SQRT, etc., don't produce rationals is that you'd need some global or extra parameter for precision. Floats have fixed precision.
2021-01-18T23:13:22Z _death: aeth: what's not true about it?
2021-01-18T23:13:47Z aeth: scymtym: hah
2021-01-18T23:14:04Z aeth: scymtym: looks like you can 10e10 into a rational after all
2021-01-18T23:14:19Z phoe: 10r10*
2021-01-18T23:15:03Z aeth: phoe: but I already followed your (setf *read-default-float-format* 'rational)
2021-01-18T23:15:17Z Fare joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:15:54Z aeth: _death: mathematical real numbers (not the type CL:REAL) are infinite, whereas floating point are fixed-length. They are not reals. You can't even get all reals on a magic computer with infinite precision and infinite RAM: you can only get computable numbers.
2021-01-18T23:16:34Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:16:34Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-18T23:16:34Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:16:40Z _death: (sorry, think 9.8e1 and 9.81e1)
2021-01-18T23:16:47Z aeth: The main difference between a RATIONAL and a FLOAT is the way the printer treats them: 258/25 vs 10.32
2021-01-18T23:16:56Z phoe: aeth: except mine doesn't work
2021-01-18T23:17:01Z aeth: Well, besides rational being infinite precision
2021-01-18T23:17:05Z aeth: phoe: in SBCL, it does
2021-01-18T23:17:10Z aeth: I literally copied and pasted it
2021-01-18T23:17:15Z phoe: ...wait a second
2021-01-18T23:17:22Z aeth: (setf *read-default-float-format* 'rational) => RATIONAL
2021-01-18T23:17:25Z aeth: 10.32 => 258/25
2021-01-18T23:17:34Z aeth: 10e10 => 100000000000
2021-01-18T23:17:41Z aeth: (float 258/25) => 10.32f0
2021-01-18T23:17:53Z aeth: It works. Mostly. It still prints rationals as rationals, instead of as the default floating point type.
2021-01-18T23:17:55Z _death: aeth: you can always argue yourself into a hole with infinite pedantry
2021-01-18T23:18:04Z phoe: ......oh shit
2021-01-18T23:18:12Z phoe: I did *not* expect this to work
2021-01-18T23:18:20Z aeth: phoe: welcome to Lisp :-p
2021-01-18T23:18:31Z aeth: It almost comes with a built-in CAS
2021-01-18T23:18:33Z phantomics: Interesting
2021-01-18T23:18:35Z phoe - a bit more enlightened today
2021-01-18T23:19:26Z aeth: _death: Actually, exactly the opposite. Every other field has infinite pedantry. Mathematics is precise. The only confusing thing when applying mathematics in a computer science concept is that a lot of the terms have two meanings (like math's real numbers vs. CL:REAL)
2021-01-18T23:20:21Z phantomics: In that cast, if I want to read e-numbers as either float or decimal, depending on whether the output is a whole number, I can just check if the output from nEn has a fractional part that's bigger than the float epsilon, and if it isn't I evaluate the same number as nRn
2021-01-18T23:20:23Z _death: yeah, I'm gonna go now
2021-01-18T23:20:28Z aeth: _death: And in this case, it actually has an application. The application is that CL:RATIONALs can be used as "exact" floating points with just a little bit of work.
2021-01-18T23:20:46Z aeth: Well, more like, instead of floating points to approximate reals in a different way.
2021-01-18T23:21:51Z aeth: Someone probably has already written a SQRT* that will call SQRT if a float, but keep rationals as rationals to the desired level of precision. (Note: This isn't ISQRT, which rounds down)
2021-01-18T23:22:31Z aeth: phantomics: Memory's cheap so just do it twice.
2021-01-18T23:22:55Z aeth: phantomics: And then choose which one to keep
2021-01-18T23:24:49Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:25:14Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-18T23:28:53Z Xach: Bike: what version?
2021-01-18T23:30:49Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:31:05Z frgo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-18T23:31:32Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:35:24Z exit70[m] left #lisp
2021-01-18T23:36:01Z devon: Looking in vain for WITH-OPEN-LZMA-FILE
2021-01-18T23:44:25Z kpoeck joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:45:11Z Xach: devon: call it and then write code in the debug loop!
2021-01-18T23:45:22Z kpoeck: xach: clasp ships with asdf "3.3.3.5"
2021-01-18T23:46:16Z hineios8 joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:48:02Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:48:02Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:48:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:48:36Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:48:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:48:37Z hineios8 is now known as hineios
2021-01-18T23:48:47Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:49:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:49:33Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:49:53Z Xach: kpoeck: thanks. how can i find that out for myself? i looked for things named asdf and none of them seemed to be asdf. (maybe i looked wrong)
2021-01-18T23:52:58Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:53:06Z kpoeck: In our build script it refers to the asdf version: https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp/blob/master/wscript#L320
2021-01-18T23:53:23Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-18T23:53:52Z kpoeck: to test I just did (require :asdf) in a clasp repl and asdf:*ASDF-VERSION*
2021-01-18T23:54:09Z kpoeck: Is that what your meant?
2021-01-18T23:54:15Z kpoeck: you meant
2021-01-18T23:57:07Z Xach: kpoeck: thanks, i thought there might be an asdf.lisp or similar. thank you for the link to the script.
2021-01-18T23:57:07Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:57:40Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-18T23:58:24Z kpoeck: once built there is src/lisp/modules/asdf/build/asdf.lisp
2021-01-18T23:58:53Z kpoeck: well after ./waf update_dependencies
2021-01-19T00:01:53Z kpoeck: waf is he build tool used in clasp
2021-01-19T00:02:02Z kpoeck: the build tool ..
2021-01-19T00:04:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-19T00:04:07Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T00:04:55Z Bike: yeah it does the source concatenation dealie so asdf.lisp isn't actually in the distribution
2021-01-19T00:04:58Z Bike: i think that's how it works
2021-01-19T00:05:08Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-19T00:05:58Z kpoeck: yes this is done by ${MAKE-make} --quiet in https://github.com/clasp-developers/clasp/blob/master/wscript#L324
2021-01-19T00:05:59Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-19T00:09:14Z kpoeck: so basically we pull the asdf sources from https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf.git and build asdf.lisp  with ./waf update_dependencies in the clasp build process
2021-01-19T00:09:35Z Fare joined #lisp
2021-01-19T00:14:51Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-19T00:20:43Z mindCrime quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T00:21:00Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-19T00:22:50Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-19T00:24:42Z Alfr quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T00:25:05Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-19T00:38:19Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-19T00:38:37Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-19T00:42:21Z Xach: thanks
2021-01-19T00:42:57Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-19T00:46:38Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-19T00:46:54Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-19T00:47:27Z kpoeck quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-19T00:47:49Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T00:50:51Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T00:54:38Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T00:56:36Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T00:57:19Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-19T01:10:44Z PuercoPop joined #lisp
2021-01-19T01:15:53Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-19T01:19:32Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-19T01:23:16Z DGASAU`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-19T01:27:13Z gurumed joined #lisp
2021-01-19T01:30:01Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-19T01:30:14Z tinga: Is there a way to search quicklisp packages by namespace?
2021-01-19T01:30:44Z tinga: Or how do packages allocate namespaces at run time, is it a hard coded mapping or configured somehow?
2021-01-19T01:30:47Z Fare joined #lisp
2021-01-19T01:43:51Z wxie1 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T01:44:00Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T01:44:01Z wxie1 is now known as wxie
2021-01-19T01:45:01Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T01:48:43Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-19T01:50:13Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-19T01:54:49Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T02:03:29Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T02:07:01Z emaczen joined #lisp
2021-01-19T02:07:06Z fourier` joined #lisp
2021-01-19T02:08:54Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T02:11:41Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-19T02:19:39Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-19T02:26:51Z tinga: What is the difference between foo::bar and foo:bar ?
2021-01-19T02:27:01Z tinga: i.e. why are people sometimes using double colons?
2021-01-19T02:28:03Z pfdietz: Single colon requires the symbol be external to the package.
2021-01-19T02:28:45Z pfdietz: So, if you always use :, you will know you are only looking at the external interface of the package, not internal symbols that may change out from under you.  In general, it's a code smell to use ::.
2021-01-19T02:29:10Z tinga: Aha, thanks!
2021-01-19T02:31:48Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T02:33:31Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-19T02:33:53Z emaczen joined #lisp
2021-01-19T02:34:38Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T02:46:40Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-19T02:47:32Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-19T02:50:20Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T02:54:30Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-19T02:55:24Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T03:05:37Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-19T03:12:56Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-19T03:21:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T03:22:51Z yitzi quit (Quit: yitzi)
2021-01-19T03:23:48Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-19T03:29:32Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-19T03:31:56Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-19T03:43:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-19T03:44:45Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-19T03:53:59Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T03:56:25Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-01-19T03:58:08Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-19T03:59:55Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-19T04:00:25Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-19T04:00:31Z White_Flame: tinga: packages (namespaces) are a flat, global space.  The modern way to avoid collisions is to use long package names and package-local-nicknames to have a scoped, easier name for it
2021-01-19T04:00:55Z White_Flame: but if you're learning and are mostly using libraries instead of creating a bunch of your own packages, you really don't have to worry about that
2021-01-19T04:02:03Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T04:04:32Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-19T04:06:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-19T04:10:27Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T04:10:46Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-19T04:11:02Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-19T04:12:06Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T04:13:34Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-19T04:14:32Z parjanya quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-19T04:14:48Z parjanya joined #lisp
2021-01-19T04:23:02Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-19T04:26:27Z sauvin_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T04:29:03Z Sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-19T04:29:43Z aeth: Yes, using :: is a code smell, but sometimes it's not on your end. If someone didn't export something and you actually need it and need to :: to get to it, then it's probably a bug.
2021-01-19T04:30:23Z aeth: In particular, so many libraries don't export stuff that only exists as a type, e.g. structure classes, standard classes, manual DEFTYPEs, etc... which you might need if you want to use CHECK-TYPE.
2021-01-19T04:30:41Z aeth: (Or if you want to subclass, I guess)
2021-01-19T04:32:17Z sauvin_ is now known as Sauvin
2021-01-19T04:33:13Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T04:39:30Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-19T04:41:45Z beach: Well, if the library creator meant for a class to be subclassed, its name should have been exported.
2021-01-19T04:46:48Z Fare quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T05:01:30Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-19T05:08:08Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-19T05:23:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T05:27:08Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-19T05:27:25Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-19T05:30:52Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T05:32:37Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-19T05:35:56Z sveit: slynk/sly has awesome and very usable backreferences for statements evaluated in the REPL, is there something similar to get access to values eval'd from a buffer?
2021-01-19T05:37:17Z sveit: or compiled? I am a bit surprised if not given how good the support for getting back values is otherwise. relatedly, it doesn't seem there is anything built-in to copy code to the mrepl from a buffer, although it exists for "buttons", is that by design?
2021-01-19T05:41:49Z elflng joined #lisp
2021-01-19T05:59:28Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-19T06:00:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-19T06:12:15Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-19T06:18:15Z splittist: beach: on the other hand, not meaning something to be subclassed is not the same as meaning it not to be subclassed. I'm sure I don't see all the ways my stuff can be extended and enhanced when writing a 'library'.
2021-01-19T06:19:28Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-19T06:20:45Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-19T06:22:26Z anticrisis quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T06:23:55Z asarch: I've tried several ways but I can't. How would you store the binary content of a #<FLEXI-STREAMS::VECTOR-INPUT-STREAM {10051D57A3}> into a file?
2021-01-19T06:24:08Z asarch: Could you please give me an example? :-(
2021-01-19T06:25:16Z _paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T06:25:38Z asarch: Parsing the POST message, I can get the "pointer" of the buffer with: (let ((file-uploaded-buffer (second (car _parsed)))) ...)
2021-01-19T06:26:04Z asarch: But that's all :-(
2021-01-19T06:28:39Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-19T06:28:55Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-19T06:34:02Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-19T06:34:22Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-19T06:35:42Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T06:38:51Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-19T06:39:59Z Nilby: asarch: You could read it into a buffer and use alexandria:write-byte-vector-into-file, or you could use uiop:copy-stream-to-stream to an open octet file stream.
2021-01-19T06:41:07Z asarch: What is exactly FLEXI-STREAMS::VECTOR-INPUT-STREAM? The pointer to the buffer, the content itself, or a structure that contains both things
2021-01-19T06:41:08Z Nilby: Either way it's just reading bytes from one stream to another.
2021-01-19T06:41:20Z asarch: That's the part I'm lost
2021-01-19T06:42:07Z asarch: Something like a la C: while (!feof(fp)) {fscanf(...); fprintf(...);}?
2021-01-19T06:43:55Z Nilby: It's a stream object that contains a vector of the bytes.
2021-01-19T06:45:46Z Nilby: There's not really an analogue in C, but you would probably use fwrite of a buffer pointer in a stream struct in C.
2021-01-19T06:46:48Z asarch: So, from that object I get the vector and from that vector I "put" those bytes in another stream pointing to a file, right?
2021-01-19T06:47:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T06:48:57Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-19T06:50:09Z Nilby: You don't need to get the vector. You can just read the bytes from it, and write them to an open file stream with a compatible element type.
2021-01-19T06:50:11Z rgherdt_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T06:51:02Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-19T06:51:36Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T06:54:50Z Nilby: asarch: Here'a simple example https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2243#2243
2021-01-19T06:56:18Z Nilby: But I would use something like uiop:copy-stream-to-stream, which does the whole thing at once.
2021-01-19T06:56:36Z asarch: How?
2021-01-19T06:56:53Z Volt_ quit (Quit:  )
2021-01-19T06:57:12Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T06:57:25Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-19T06:57:26Z Nilby: You can replace the loop in that example with a copy stream call.
2021-01-19T06:58:12Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-19T06:58:13Z v88m quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T07:01:09Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T07:01:23Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:01:24Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:03:10Z Nilby: asarch: I'm sure you can do it. And let
2021-01-19T07:03:13Z asarch: (with-open-file (file-output-stream "foo" ...) (uiop:copy-stream-to-stream #<FLEXI-STREAMS::VECTOR-INPUT-STREAM {10051D57A3}> file-output-stream)))
2021-01-19T07:03:51Z zendev454 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:04:19Z Alfr_: asarch, #< is not readable, that will error.
2021-01-19T07:04:32Z Nilby: let's thank Edi for making such flexible streams, and Faré for putting a wacky library in asdf.
2021-01-19T07:04:37Z Alfr_: asarch, you'll need to the handle to that stream object some other way.
2021-01-19T07:04:59Z asarch: I mean, that was only a "sketch" about the code
2021-01-19T07:05:00Z Alfr_: s/to the/to get the/
2021-01-19T07:05:17Z v88m joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:05:57Z asarch: The controller starts with: (defroute ("/" :method :POST) (&key _parsed) ...)
2021-01-19T07:06:17Z v88m quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-19T07:07:03Z asarch: _parse is where you can get all the data from the POST message which has a form of: (("file" #<FLEXI-STREAMS::VECTOR-INPUT-STREAM {10051D57A3}> "139626492_3531143143657758_2613955532857309082_o.jpg" "image/jpeg"))
2021-01-19T07:07:49Z asarch: So, for example, to get the name of the uploaded file would be with: (let ((uploaded-file-name (third (car _parsed)))) ...)
2021-01-19T07:08:34Z asarch: And, to get the "handler" of the buffer: (uploaded-file-buffer (second (car _parse)))
2021-01-19T07:09:26Z asarch: So, (uiop:copy-stream-to-stream uploaded-file-buffer file-output-stream), right?
2021-01-19T07:09:58Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-19T07:10:33Z Alfr_: asarch, I'm not familiar with that library, sorry.
2021-01-19T07:11:09Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:11:46Z asarch: Don't worry :-)
2021-01-19T07:12:59Z Nilby: Well, you need to open the file stream, so you probably need a with-open-file in there.
2021-01-19T07:13:40Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:14:42Z Alfr_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T07:15:06Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:15:52Z Nilby: or you could use this https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2244#2244
2021-01-19T07:17:32Z Nilby: or actually no
2021-01-19T07:17:41Z asarch: HOLD MY BEER!!!
2021-01-19T07:17:44Z asarch: IT WORKED!!
2021-01-19T07:17:53Z asarch: YOU ARE MY HERO MAN!!!
2021-01-19T07:17:55Z Nilby: Yes!! I knew you could do it!
2021-01-19T07:18:11Z asarch: Actually your first code did the magic
2021-01-19T07:19:42Z asarch: This my code: https://pastebin.com/ZKFRM2ag
2021-01-19T07:19:49Z asarch: Sorry for the mess, you know :-P
2021-01-19T07:21:12Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T07:21:28Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:22:41Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:24:22Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:24:31Z asarch: Cleaning the awful code: https://pastebin.com/eREZ4phF
2021-01-19T07:25:01Z asarch: We get this beautiful piece of code to upload files to your PC from your cellphone at home :-)
2021-01-19T07:26:28Z Nilby: I think if you add an element-type the copy-stream should work: (uiop:copy-stream-to-stream uploaded-file-buffer file-stream :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)))
2021-01-19T07:28:14Z asarch: Let's try it!
2021-01-19T07:29:15Z rgherdt__ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:29:47Z wxie1 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:30:40Z asarch: Yeah! That also does the magic
2021-01-19T07:30:58Z Nilby: Cool. That should be much faster.
2021-01-19T07:31:08Z asarch: Thank you Nilby
2021-01-19T07:31:13Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T07:31:13Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2021-01-19T07:31:22Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T07:31:23Z wxie1 is now known as wxie
2021-01-19T07:31:29Z eddev joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:31:33Z elflng_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:31:35Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T07:31:35Z asarch: I owe you some beers
2021-01-19T07:32:09Z zendev454 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T07:32:18Z Nilby: You're welcome.
2021-01-19T07:33:55Z asarch: https://pasteboard.co/JKkp6c1.jpg
2021-01-19T07:34:10Z asarch: I uploaded that picture from the cellphone to my PC
2021-01-19T07:35:20Z asarch: Now, let's post the solution in the Fukamachi-san account int GitHub :-)
2021-01-19T07:35:53Z Nilby: Nice. It's good to host your own stuff.
2021-01-19T07:40:46Z asarch: :-)
2021-01-19T07:43:52Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-19T07:59:00Z eddev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-19T08:03:39Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:06:29Z ralt: (format t "~a" foo) vs (format t "~A" foo) -- what's the difference? Is it a stylistic one at best?
2021-01-19T08:09:23Z jdz: I personally capitalize the directives so that they stand out more.
2021-01-19T08:09:53Z jdz: But yes, the case does not matter.
2021-01-19T08:11:45Z ralt: Thanks
2021-01-19T08:12:33Z zmv joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:12:33Z zmv quit (Changing host)
2021-01-19T08:12:33Z zmv joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:14:26Z livoreno quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-19T08:17:53Z makomo joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:20:46Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:21:02Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:25:21Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:30:22Z rgherdt__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T08:30:40Z rgherdt__ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:32:11Z fourier` is now known as fourier
2021-01-19T08:32:23Z fourier quit (Changing host)
2021-01-19T08:32:23Z fourier joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:32:47Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-19T08:39:18Z adam4567 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:40:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:40:28Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-19T08:40:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:41:11Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:42:23Z adam4567 left #lisp
2021-01-19T08:51:17Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:52:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T08:56:47Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-19T09:00:43Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T09:05:36Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:07:13Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:08:03Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T09:09:29Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-19T09:11:36Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T09:13:17Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:15:19Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:19:21Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:20:38Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:20:50Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T09:21:06Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:22:30Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:25:31Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-19T09:25:58Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:28:23Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:28:53Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-19T09:29:23Z nivet joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:37:17Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-19T09:37:34Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:39:05Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T09:40:06Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:40:59Z ldbeth quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-19T09:41:19Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-19T09:41:25Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:44:01Z nivet quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-19T09:44:28Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:51:20Z rwcom60280385034 is now known as nivet
2021-01-19T09:52:15Z nivet quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-19T09:52:43Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:55:39Z mbomba joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:56:32Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:58:41Z jurov quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-19T09:59:03Z jurov joined #lisp
2021-01-19T09:59:38Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-19T10:02:48Z podge joined #lisp
2021-01-19T10:04:14Z mbomba quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-19T10:05:33Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-19T10:06:48Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-19T10:08:41Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-19T10:10:20Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-19T10:12:31Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-19T10:13:36Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-19T10:16:59Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-19T10:24:58Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-19T10:25:11Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T10:27:05Z Codaraxis_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T10:27:20Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-19T10:28:33Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-19T10:32:28Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-19T10:35:00Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T10:41:49Z tassleoff quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-19T10:41:49Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-19T10:50:47Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-19T10:51:47Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-19T10:52:15Z ldbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T10:52:32Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:02:06Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T11:32:14Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:32:43Z ldbeth: do you guys know if there's already a native LZ4 compression written in CL?
2021-01-19T11:36:03Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:36:32Z Stanley00 quit
2021-01-19T11:37:51Z jmercouris: beach: can you please remind me the lisp style guide URL?
2021-01-19T11:38:31Z jmercouris: or if anyone else knows it
2021-01-19T11:38:54Z beach: I don't know any by heart.  And there are several.  Do you mean the one written by Fare et all when he worked for Google?
2021-01-19T11:39:03Z jmercouris: beach: the one about using IF/WHEN
2021-01-19T11:39:09Z beach: Oh, that one.
2021-01-19T11:39:22Z beach: That would be the LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman.
2021-01-19T11:39:27Z beach: Page 13.
2021-01-19T11:39:54Z beach: If you google "LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman" you will find it.
2021-01-19T11:40:07Z jmercouris: beach: thank you!
2021-01-19T11:40:12Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-19T11:42:41Z beach: It is not a very detailed style guide.  It is more about understanding what style is for and why it is important.
2021-01-19T11:44:22Z beach: Like it says, it is about memory.  You want the person reading your code to have to remember as little as possible in order to understand the code.  And that goal has several consequences...
2021-01-19T11:44:40Z beach: You don't want to surprise the reader by doing something unusual.
2021-01-19T11:44:44Z jmercouris: indeed, indeed
2021-01-19T11:44:47Z jmercouris: :-)
2021-01-19T11:45:22Z beach: You want to get rid of special cases first, so that the reader does not have to remember to look for them over a long chunk.  Example: recursion should start with the base case.
2021-01-19T11:48:04Z beach: The WHEN/IF thing is an example of both.  When you use IF, you make the reader remember that there is an `else' part coming up when he or she is reading the `then' part.
2021-01-19T11:48:30Z beach: So if there is no `else' part, then you have unnecessarily wasted the memory of the reader.
2021-01-19T11:49:00Z beach: By using WHEN instead, you immediately tell the reader that there is no need to remember to look for any `else'.
2021-01-19T11:49:41Z flip214  just found out that the _human_ reader is meant
2021-01-19T11:50:05Z beach: I started writing "the person reading your code".
2021-01-19T11:51:06Z ldbeth: it can be figured out by staring at the indentation
2021-01-19T11:51:15Z flip214: yeah.... but when I switch windows, the first thing I see is the last line written.
2021-01-19T11:51:42Z beach: Memory is also the reason for the rule about using the most specific construct that will accomplish the task at hand.
2021-01-19T11:52:06Z beach: So the other day, we were asked about (mapcar ...) vs (map 'list ...)
2021-01-19T11:52:55Z beach: when the ... are all lists, then mapcar is more specific, so it should be used in that case.
2021-01-19T11:52:56Z ldbeth: it is too verbose to write (map 'list
2021-01-19T11:53:14Z beach: Verbosity is not the main argument though.  It is about specificity.
2021-01-19T11:53:40Z ldbeth: on the other hand, (if c (progn ...)) vs (when c ...)
2021-01-19T11:53:54Z beach: What about it?
2021-01-19T11:54:30Z ldbeth: (progn is a structure that doesn't contributes to the meaning of the program
2021-01-19T11:54:36Z beach: ldbeth: Also, everything "can be figured out".  That's not the point.  Again, the point is how long it takes the person reading your code to figure it out.
2021-01-19T11:55:19Z ldbeth: so I personaly perfer constructs with implicit progn if applicable
2021-01-19T11:55:45Z beach: Yes, but again, this is not about personal preference, unless of course, you keep your code to yourself.
2021-01-19T11:56:02Z beach: I'll say this again, it is about making life easier for a person reading your code.
2021-01-19T11:57:02Z beach: It seems whenever style is discussed here, it always ends with people stating their personal preference, as if that is the important thing here.
2021-01-19T11:57:46Z heisig quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:46Z varjag quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:46Z random-nick quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:46Z narimiran quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:46Z mrcom quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:46Z ggoes quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:46Z thecoffemaker quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:46Z xanderle quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z srji quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z saturn2 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z X-Scale quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z Khisanth quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z vhost- quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z joga quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z SlashLife quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z cpape quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z zmagii quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z vsync quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z flip214 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z mr_yogurt quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z brandonz quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z nightfly quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:57:47Z spacebat2 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-19T11:58:01Z srji joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:04Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:08Z zmagii joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:12Z vhost- joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:20Z flip214 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:26Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:29Z beach: Anyway, time for a break.
2021-01-19T11:58:30Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:30Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:30Z saturn2 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:30Z Khisanth joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:30Z joga joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:30Z cpape joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:30Z vsync joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:30Z mr_yogurt joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:30Z nightfly joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:30Z spacebat2 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:37Z SlashLife joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:42Z rgherdt__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T11:58:46Z rgherdt_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:58:47Z ldbeth want to have so tea
2021-01-19T11:58:49Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:59:10Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:59:25Z X-Scale joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:59:32Z brandonz joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:59:34Z ggoes joined #lisp
2021-01-19T11:59:35Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp
2021-01-19T12:00:05Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-19T12:00:19Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T12:00:28Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-19T12:01:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T12:01:38Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-19T12:01:39Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T12:01:49Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-19T12:01:53Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T12:08:28Z ldbeth quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-19T12:13:49Z Posterdati: hi
2021-01-19T12:14:38Z Posterdati: please I need to write a small lisp interpreter on a microcontroller, shall I use scheme?
2021-01-19T12:14:40Z Posterdati: thanks
2021-01-19T12:14:45Z jackdaniel: try ulisp
2021-01-19T12:14:53Z jackdaniel: http://www.ulisp.com/
2021-01-19T12:18:53Z Posterdati: yes, ok thanks
2021-01-19T12:20:06Z Posterdati: well I need the bnf coded grammar for a small subset of lip, I thought about scheme, from this project instead https://github.com/hmgle/yascm
2021-01-19T12:20:46Z jackdaniel: Posterdati: I think that this is offtopic on this channel, so prolonging the discussion is not a good idea
2021-01-19T12:21:56Z Posterdati: ?
2021-01-19T12:22:20Z jackdaniel: this channel topic is Common Lisp (not its subsets or smaller relatives)
2021-01-19T12:22:40Z jackdaniel: you may try on #scheme, ##lisp or #lispcafe
2021-01-19T12:22:41Z phoe: ##lisp might be a better choice for that
2021-01-19T12:22:50Z phoe highfives
2021-01-19T12:26:07Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-19T12:28:17Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-19T12:34:55Z Posterdati: ok
2021-01-19T12:38:56Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-19T12:41:22Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-19T12:43:19Z luckless quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-19T12:44:47Z podge quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-19T12:45:19Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-19T12:52:20Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-19T12:55:43Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T12:55:52Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T12:57:01Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-19T13:12:17Z rozengla` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T13:25:21Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-19T13:35:42Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-19T13:40:09Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-19T13:46:44Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-19T13:54:18Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-19T13:58:12Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-19T13:59:28Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-19T13:59:46Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-19T13:59:53Z luckless quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-19T14:00:47Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-19T14:03:55Z tumdum joined #lisp
2021-01-19T14:03:55Z tumdum quit (Changing host)
2021-01-19T14:03:55Z tumdum joined #lisp
2021-01-19T14:05:28Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-19T14:05:44Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-19T14:09:34Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-19T14:18:41Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-19T14:21:07Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-19T14:21:17Z mankaev quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T14:22:53Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-19T14:33:32Z mankaev joined #lisp
2021-01-19T14:37:46Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-19T14:38:23Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T14:38:41Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-19T14:40:31Z elflng_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-19T14:50:18Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-01-19T14:51:44Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-19T14:52:28Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-19T15:01:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T15:01:37Z l1x joined #lisp
2021-01-19T15:02:05Z Josh_2: Ello
2021-01-19T15:02:17Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-19T15:02:22Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-19T15:10:31Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
2021-01-19T15:17:22Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-19T15:21:56Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-19T15:25:33Z ecm1 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T15:26:53Z emacsoma1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-19T15:28:02Z emacsomancer joined #lisp
2021-01-19T15:33:24Z fangyrn joined #lisp
2021-01-19T15:42:52Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-19T15:44:27Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-19T15:45:08Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-19T15:46:35Z andreyorst` quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-19T15:57:03Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-19T16:02:04Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T16:02:33Z Josh_2: How are your projects going beach?
2021-01-19T16:04:47Z beach: Very well thank you.
2021-01-19T16:05:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T16:05:26Z beach: My latest invention for call-site optimization is going to require some more work, but it will be great in the end.
2021-01-19T16:05:45Z Josh_2: What is call-site optimization?
2021-01-19T16:06:38Z beach: This paper I am working on, and that I want to submit to ELS this year: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf
2021-01-19T16:10:41Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-19T16:22:56Z cross_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-19T16:29:01Z beach: Josh_2: Don't feel you have to read the draft paper.  Essentially, it's a general technique to optimize functions calls so as to avoid overhead in the form of indirections, call-protocol costs, and argument parsing.
2021-01-19T16:29:10Z sMuNiX joined #lisp
2021-01-19T16:29:12Z cross joined #lisp
2021-01-19T16:29:36Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-19T16:35:44Z Josh_2: I have read most of it
2021-01-19T16:36:05Z Josh_2: cant say I really understand it but I am not more curious about how CL functions are implemented
2021-01-19T16:36:16Z Josh_2: I am more curious*
2021-01-19T16:36:35Z beach: That's good! :)
2021-01-19T16:46:22Z liberliver1 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T16:48:25Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T16:48:31Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T16:48:31Z liberliver1 is now known as liberliver
2021-01-19T16:48:37Z ecm1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T16:48:47Z lottaquestions_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-19T16:49:11Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T16:49:11Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T16:49:14Z andreyorst_ is now known as andreyorst
2021-01-19T16:49:44Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-19T16:49:45Z ecm1 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T16:52:41Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T16:54:12Z lottaquestions joined #lisp
2021-01-19T16:55:26Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-19T16:55:35Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-19T16:59:29Z ecm1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-19T17:03:39Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:05:19Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-19T17:11:39Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-19T17:11:58Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:13:30Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:14:53Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:16:22Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-19T17:16:45Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:17:52Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:20:58Z l1x quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-19T17:24:22Z nullman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T17:27:12Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:27:44Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:36:06Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-19T17:38:00Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-19T17:38:32Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:41:23Z shadowpuppets joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:41:43Z shadowpuppets left #lisp
2021-01-19T17:43:16Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:45:14Z Anonymous____ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:48:34Z secretmyth joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:50:43Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:51:57Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2021-01-19T17:52:55Z Anonymous____ is now known as Anonymous__
2021-01-19T17:53:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:53:58Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:54:57Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp
2021-01-19T17:57:27Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-19T17:58:52Z devon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T18:07:27Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-19T18:14:29Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-19T18:16:23Z secretmyth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T18:16:43Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-19T18:25:24Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T18:38:55Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-19T18:43:24Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-19T18:43:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T18:43:46Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T18:44:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T18:44:56Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T18:46:24Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T18:49:08Z sMuNiX quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-19T18:49:57Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-19T18:50:18Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-19T18:51:19Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-19T18:52:28Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T18:59:56Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:03:47Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-19T19:05:11Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-19T19:05:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T19:06:19Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:06:30Z mankaev quit
2021-01-19T19:06:50Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:10:26Z dbotton: Xach when does the build of the next quickslip tar up my repo? Is it when the can build label is applied or does it happen closer to the new release?
2021-01-19T19:10:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T19:10:49Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:15:17Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-19T19:16:00Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:17:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T19:17:39Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:21:26Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T19:21:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T19:22:04Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-19T19:22:19Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:22:34Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T19:23:06Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:28:36Z Xach: dbotton: every day
2021-01-19T19:28:50Z Xach: dbotton: if it continues to build, the version from the day of dist release is used.
2021-01-19T19:29:01Z Xach: dbotton: i can also pull from a branch or a tag or a github release point
2021-01-19T19:29:07Z Xach: or a tarball, or or or
2021-01-19T19:29:33Z dbotton: Great
2021-01-19T19:29:33Z Xach: if development breaks the build before a release, i will tell you via a github issue
2021-01-19T19:29:56Z dbotton: When is the next release?
2021-01-19T19:30:05Z dbotton: aprox
2021-01-19T19:30:31Z Xach: dbotton: no set timetable but i would very much like it to be before february 1
2021-01-19T19:31:21Z dbotton: Ok, so have some time to include some more tutorials and features. Thanks
2021-01-19T19:31:36Z Xach: 100%
2021-01-19T19:31:53Z Xach: but! if you want strong predictability in what will be in quicklisp, a branch or release is the way to go
2021-01-19T19:34:52Z dbotton: Ok, I'll see what makes sense closer
2021-01-19T19:35:15Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-19T19:35:42Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-19T19:36:11Z parjanya quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-19T19:37:21Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:42:12Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-19T19:43:26Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:46:18Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-19T19:52:07Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:52:41Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-19T19:52:51Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:53:10Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-19T19:54:39Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:00:52Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:01:05Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T20:01:30Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:10:49Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-19T20:12:23Z thijso quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-19T20:13:29Z elflng joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:13:54Z thijso joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:22:32Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:26:12Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:26:13Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-19T20:27:08Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:29:28Z gendl: Hi, is it normal to run a CL in WSL and connect with slime from an emacs running natively in Windows?
2021-01-19T20:29:42Z kpoeck joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:29:44Z gendl: I'm officially moving off Mac as my main dev machine at this juncture.
2021-01-19T20:29:51Z gendl: too much of a timesink.
2021-01-19T20:30:45Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-19T20:30:47Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-19T20:31:26Z gendl: and will give up supporting pre-built (signed/notarized etc) prebuilt gendl for Mac. Just do not have the time budget for that.  I'm hoping most folks wanting to use it on mac can build it from quicklisp.
2021-01-19T20:31:26Z mr-iznogud quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T20:31:54Z gendl: pity that it's just at a time when these shiny new M1 processors are coming out but oh well.
2021-01-19T20:32:09Z posthuman_egrego: Hello
2021-01-19T20:32:18Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:35:32Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-19T20:36:17Z kpoeck quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-19T20:38:25Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:42:41Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-19T20:44:08Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:44:26Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:52:16Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp
2021-01-19T20:56:26Z mr-iznogud quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T20:57:53Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-19T20:59:09Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:01:42Z Xach: gendl: who is to say what is normal?
2021-01-19T21:01:50Z Xach: gendl: if it works, maybe it is normal enough
2021-01-19T21:02:16Z Xach: i once thought everyone used sbcl on linux
2021-01-19T21:02:25Z gendl: Xach: good point.
2021-01-19T21:03:11Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-19T21:03:50Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:04:47Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:05:37Z Xach: i know someone who uses docker to run their lisp in a linux environment with some linux foreign libraries, but connect mac emacs to it through container port forwarding. docker shared filesystem helps keep things in sync.
2021-01-19T21:06:17Z fangyrn quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-19T21:06:29Z gum quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4+deb0+bionic0 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-19T21:06:43Z gum joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:07:16Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:12:16Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:18:50Z hjudt quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-19T21:21:25Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-19T21:21:37Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-19T21:23:34Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:25:38Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T21:31:59Z kpoeck joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:34:15Z parjanya joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:34:15Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-19T21:38:29Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:41:03Z mr-iznogud quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T21:41:44Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:50:36Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T21:51:22Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-19T21:51:38Z jerme_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T21:52:06Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:52:59Z jerme_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:53:28Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:54:04Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T21:55:08Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp
2021-01-19T21:56:07Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-19T21:57:25Z gclv joined #lisp
2021-01-19T22:00:57Z [d] quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-19T22:01:04Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-19T22:01:31Z _paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T22:02:11Z paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-19T22:02:36Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T22:03:41Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-19T22:04:18Z anticrisis: gendl: I use WSL2, build emacs from source, and run it all on WSL, using a cheap X server for Windows. It was too complicated to get all the emacs bits and pieces working under Windows.
2021-01-19T22:05:12Z leo_song_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-19T22:05:24Z leo_song joined #lisp
2021-01-19T22:07:51Z gendl: anticrisis:  Thanks. The X server is not too much hassle?  I've been doing ok with emacs on windows, except I haven't managed to get magit going (which admitedly is kind of a big deal)
2021-01-19T22:07:53Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-19T22:08:03Z anticrisis: Oh I should also say accessing the Windows filesystem is through /mnt/c/... etc and works fine, though there is a bit of a performance hit
2021-01-19T22:08:31Z anticrisis: No the X server was entirely turnkey - no config required - it's on the Microsoft Store - X410
2021-01-19T22:08:49Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-19T22:09:13Z gendl: anticrisis: but if you're running the whole thing under WSL then you shouldn't need the /mnt/c/ for much, right?
2021-01-19T22:09:24Z anticrisis: Re magit, yeah, that's what I meant by all the bits and pieces - emacs needs all these external things to work well together, and sometimes they don't
2021-01-19T22:09:44Z anticrisis: That's right, keep everything on the wsl filesystem, and it works great - for instance, build sbcl etc
2021-01-19T22:09:48Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T22:10:15Z anticrisis: but for anything you want to actually access from windows, you of course need to access via the mount points
2021-01-19T22:10:42Z gendl: yep - and symbolic links from /home in WSL seem to work as expected for that
2021-01-19T22:10:56Z anticrisis: yes
2021-01-19T22:10:57Z gendl: i.e. no need actually to type /mnt/c/users/.... all the time
2021-01-19T22:11:53Z anticrisis: If you do try to run magit over a mount point, or treemacs, it can take several seconds to load
2021-01-19T22:12:27Z gendl: good to know.  I think I'll try that X server... let's see the cost...
2021-01-19T22:13:12Z gendl: hmm $49.99 marked down to $9.99 for the next 20 days
2021-01-19T22:13:20Z anticrisis: The one thing about X410 is you need to select the "Allow Public Access" option - which in practice shouldn't matter because you've got windows firewall, but take note
2021-01-19T22:13:46Z gendl: noted.  And why did you build emacs from source rather than `sudo apt-get install emacs`  ?
2021-01-19T22:14:14Z luckless_ joined #lisp
2021-01-19T22:14:31Z anticrisis: Ah - I wanted to try the native compilation branch, which was pretty neat - eventually just went back to the bleeding edge - release version would be just fine
2021-01-19T22:14:42Z gendl: got it
2021-01-19T22:15:11Z anticrisis: X410 on WSL instructions: https://x410.dev/cookbook/wsl/using-x410-with-wsl2/
2021-01-19T22:15:44Z anticrisis: when I said "no config" I forgot about setting the DISPLAY variable correctly
2021-01-19T22:16:10Z gendl: 👌🏻👍🏻🙏🏻
2021-01-19T22:18:12Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-19T22:20:32Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T22:21:35Z kenu joined #lisp
2021-01-19T22:21:50Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-19T22:27:24Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-19T22:34:54Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-19T22:35:09Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T22:35:55Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-19T22:51:22Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-19T22:54:43Z kpoeck quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-19T22:55:32Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-19T22:55:46Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-19T22:56:50Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-19T22:58:20Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-19T23:02:42Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp
2021-01-19T23:04:45Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-19T23:10:00Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-19T23:13:05Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-19T23:18:36Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-19T23:22:24Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-19T23:22:46Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T23:27:16Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-19T23:31:03Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T23:31:29Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-19T23:36:39Z gurumed quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T23:38:15Z mr-iznogud quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-19T23:39:36Z emaczen joined #lisp
2021-01-19T23:50:04Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-19T23:55:46Z moon-child quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-20T00:00:11Z moon-child joined #lisp
2021-01-20T00:01:56Z Anonymous__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T00:03:05Z epony joined #lisp
2021-01-20T00:03:32Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T00:04:09Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T00:05:44Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp
2021-01-20T00:07:44Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T00:11:59Z mr-iznogud quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T00:12:59Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp
2021-01-20T00:15:20Z skapata quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T00:17:03Z pillton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T00:18:25Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-20T00:32:44Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T00:40:18Z kenu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T00:40:48Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T00:47:02Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T00:48:40Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T00:50:00Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T00:58:02Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T00:58:18Z Kevslinger joined #lisp
2021-01-20T00:58:28Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T00:59:20Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-20T00:59:25Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-20T01:01:06Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:01:45Z edgar-xyz joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:02:32Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:02:41Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T01:03:20Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T01:03:20Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T01:03:45Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:03:55Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-20T01:07:18Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T01:09:17Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:15:48Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T01:18:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T01:18:27Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:21:56Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-20T01:33:50Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:36:26Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:37:11Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:37:26Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T01:40:13Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-20T01:40:47Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:47:17Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:47:32Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T01:49:20Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:49:23Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T01:50:13Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T01:54:04Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-20T01:56:29Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-20T01:58:03Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-20T01:58:30Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:02:26Z akoana quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T02:02:58Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:04:00Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:06:24Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T02:06:32Z emaczen joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:12:19Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:12:46Z livoreno joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:12:47Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T02:15:12Z zmv quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T02:15:29Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:18:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T02:21:20Z loli quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-20T02:23:34Z loli joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:24:13Z lottaquestions quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T02:28:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T02:28:27Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:28:33Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:28:40Z lottaquestions joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:33:48Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-20T02:34:37Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T02:37:06Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:42:03Z dbotton: Figured I would mention I added the plumbing needed for using clog for full websites (ie multiple pages, routes, etc.) https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/12-tutorial.lisp
2021-01-20T02:43:25Z PuercoPop joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:45:55Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:48:18Z housel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T02:53:44Z london joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:54:22Z mrcom_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:54:31Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:56:34Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T02:57:44Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T02:58:16Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T02:59:17Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T03:00:00Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T03:03:45Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T03:06:35Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-20T03:17:11Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-20T03:19:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T03:19:26Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-20T03:19:58Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T03:20:51Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-20T03:21:57Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-20T03:27:13Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-20T03:27:34Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T03:27:55Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-20T03:30:51Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-20T03:37:05Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-20T03:41:14Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-20T03:46:20Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T03:47:10Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-01-20T03:47:12Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T03:47:32Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-20T03:47:53Z london quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-20T04:00:14Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T04:01:36Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T04:01:56Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-20T04:01:58Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:03:03Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T04:03:30Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:04:05Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:04:52Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T04:05:22Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-20T04:05:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-20T04:06:00Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:07:01Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T04:07:59Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:09:04Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T04:10:30Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:11:05Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T04:12:35Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:13:36Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T04:14:35Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:15:36Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T04:16:34Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T04:17:10Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:17:30Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:18:36Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T04:20:20Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:21:23Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T04:22:24Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:23:24Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T04:24:41Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:24:46Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:25:05Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T04:25:46Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T04:27:50Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:36:24Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:39:05Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T04:39:14Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T04:39:26Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:41:26Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T04:45:01Z mr-iznogud quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T04:48:05Z Kevslinger quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-20T04:50:10Z emaczen joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:52:18Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T04:54:16Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T04:56:05Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-20T04:58:49Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T05:04:25Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T05:04:42Z gzj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T05:18:50Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-20T05:21:23Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-20T05:21:29Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-20T05:28:32Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T05:33:16Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T05:36:08Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-20T06:00:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T06:02:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-20T06:05:43Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-20T06:08:39Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T06:15:54Z mr-rager joined #lisp
2021-01-20T06:30:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T06:32:24Z sword865 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T06:33:05Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-20T06:35:32Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T06:37:43Z travv0: morning
2021-01-20T06:38:23Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-20T06:38:39Z beach: Hello travv0.
2021-01-20T06:39:54Z travv0: you been working on anything exciting lately? i mostly am in discord and don't check irc very often
2021-01-20T06:49:51Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-20T06:49:53Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T06:52:34Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-20T06:54:57Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-20T06:56:41Z beach: I certainly have: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf
2021-01-20T06:56:55Z beach: To be submitted to ELS'21.
2021-01-20T06:58:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-20T06:58:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-20T06:58:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-20T06:58:55Z mr-rager quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T07:09:17Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:10:36Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T07:12:00Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:13:13Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:14:18Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:16:31Z beach: travv0: Don't feel you have to read the paper.  Here is an executive summary: I suggest a way to optimize call sites by having the callee generate the code for the call site, thereby allowing more opportunities for optimization, like avoiding indirections, avoiding optional and keyword argument parsing, etc.
2021-01-20T07:17:39Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-20T07:17:44Z beach: It has the potential to make Common Lisp function calls faster than (say) C++ function calls, at least when C++ function calls use the default calling conventions.
2021-01-20T07:18:34Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:20:35Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T07:22:34Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:22:53Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:25:38Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-20T07:25:40Z travv0: wow, that definitely sounds interesting. and i guess silver lining with the covid stuff is I'll get to watch along with ELS presentations again this year from the US
2021-01-20T07:25:49Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:26:17Z travv0: i was planning on making it in person soon but i have a bit more time now
2021-01-20T07:28:56Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T07:31:12Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:33:44Z beach: Indeed.
2021-01-20T07:34:58Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T07:37:48Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-20T07:43:52Z rgherdt_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:44:42Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:46:24Z flip214: I build an application via QL and its ADSF file, then call a function to dump an image. When running that image, my main starts swank in there (to debug); but when I connect, I'm thrown in sldb - from a (LOAD "... .asd").
2021-01-20T07:46:51Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:46:55Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-20T07:46:58Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-20T07:47:06Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T07:47:07Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:47:12Z attila_lendvai_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:47:28Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:47:57Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-20T07:48:48Z flip214: seems that ASDF gets triggered on the defined system _again_ .... - or still, though I'd have expected loading to complete when QL returns?!
2021-01-20T07:50:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T07:57:30Z mr-iznogud quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T08:01:59Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-20T08:04:00Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:04:57Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:05:48Z iskander| joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:07:34Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T08:09:20Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:09:38Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T08:12:08Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T08:15:06Z GZJ0X_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T08:15:28Z GZJ0X_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:17:07Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:18:58Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:23:46Z luckless_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-20T08:26:02Z luckless_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:27:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T08:27:36Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:29:52Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T08:30:23Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:32:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T08:33:48Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:33:51Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:34:00Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:36:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T08:36:10Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:36:41Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:38:23Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:40:08Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:40:40Z jprajzne quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T08:40:40Z Cymew quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T08:40:40Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:40:42Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T08:40:51Z andreyorst`_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:40:59Z GZJ0X_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T08:40:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T08:41:13Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T08:41:13Z andreyorst` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T08:41:13Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T08:41:13Z andreyorst`_ is now known as andreyorst`
2021-01-20T08:41:15Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:41:21Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:41:35Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:41:39Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:42:52Z zerno quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T08:46:45Z froggey joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:50:19Z rwcom60280385034 is now known as nivet
2021-01-20T08:50:43Z nivet is now known as rwcom60280385034
2021-01-20T08:51:52Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:55:33Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-20T08:57:40Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T09:00:31Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:00:41Z rme joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:00:59Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:06:51Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:07:59Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:08:09Z podge joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:10:01Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:13:50Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:15:07Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:17:56Z mood quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:17:57Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T09:18:16Z jbgg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:18:24Z jbgg joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:18:56Z Madvax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:19:00Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:19:07Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:19:20Z mood joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:19:57Z Madvax joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:24:17Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:24:46Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:25:05Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T09:25:10Z mrcom_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:25:26Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:26:08Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:35:20Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:37:57Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:39:38Z iskander| quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:40:14Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:43:02Z zmv joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:45:28Z livoreno quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:57:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T09:57:40Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:58:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T09:59:25Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-20T09:59:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T09:59:56Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:00:36Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T10:04:24Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:06:16Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-20T10:07:54Z jello_pudding joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:07:57Z awkravchuk joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:08:31Z awkravchuk quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T10:12:50Z awkravchuk joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:13:02Z johnjay quit (Read error: No route to host)
2021-01-20T10:14:00Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:14:03Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:15:14Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:15:24Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:16:03Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T10:16:03Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T10:22:13Z podge quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-01-20T10:22:27Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:22:34Z kenu joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:24:10Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:24:29Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:24:55Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T10:30:23Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T10:33:02Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T10:37:23Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-20T10:42:46Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:46:41Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-20T10:48:39Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:49:33Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T10:58:05Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T10:58:27Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T10:59:34Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-20T11:02:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T11:05:31Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T11:19:57Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-20T11:22:09Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-20T11:27:19Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-20T11:27:54Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-20T11:30:08Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T11:30:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T11:30:22Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-20T11:30:36Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-20T11:31:13Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T11:33:15Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T11:33:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T11:33:35Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T11:34:30Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-20T11:38:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T11:38:58Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T11:45:48Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-20T11:51:30Z mrcom_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T11:55:06Z Xach: flip214: last i checked, swank does not act like most asdf systems, but i don't know if its behavior accounts for what you see.
2021-01-20T11:55:45Z flip214: Xach: thanks.
2021-01-20T11:56:20Z flip214: looks like my swank _client_ tried to load something - causing ASDF to look at all its asd files... but I haven't fully debugged that yet.
2021-01-20T11:58:25Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:03:47Z fitzsim quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T12:07:14Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-20T12:09:21Z Stanley00 quit
2021-01-20T12:10:47Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T12:11:59Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:21:48Z zulu-inuoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T12:22:47Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:24:36Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T12:25:42Z jealousmonk joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:28:14Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-20T12:32:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T12:32:58Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:33:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T12:33:28Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:33:50Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:45:06Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:50:52Z awkravchuk quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T12:51:00Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T12:51:08Z okflo joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:51:14Z awkravchuk joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:51:18Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:52:30Z Guest11553 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T12:54:47Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:58:18Z jedii joined #lisp
2021-01-20T12:58:28Z jedii: how goes the lisp folks?
2021-01-20T12:59:55Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-20T13:00:07Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:01:06Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T13:01:27Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:01:34Z Xach: jedii: fresh and clean
2021-01-20T13:05:56Z kenu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T13:08:41Z zmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T13:15:59Z torillebazar joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:19:26Z torillebazar left #lisp
2021-01-20T13:20:47Z kenu joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:24:02Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T13:27:48Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:29:19Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:31:26Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:36:56Z mtd_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T13:37:03Z mtd_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:40:29Z frgo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:41:20Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T13:42:32Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:43:14Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T13:45:40Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:48:33Z liberliver1 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:49:36Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T13:49:36Z liberliver1 is now known as liberliver
2021-01-20T13:53:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T13:56:10Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:56:32Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T13:58:15Z mrcom_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T13:58:32Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-20T13:59:57Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:00:08Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-20T14:05:06Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T14:05:27Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:06:06Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T14:06:21Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:06:28Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:07:05Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T14:07:29Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:08:05Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T14:08:26Z kenu quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T14:08:30Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:12:06Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T14:12:19Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:12:29Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:13:00Z kenu joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:15:21Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-20T14:18:58Z mrcom_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:20:29Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-20T14:21:24Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:22:33Z kenu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-20T14:23:49Z bendersteed joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:27:13Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-20T14:29:28Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:38:09Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:39:08Z ljavorsk quit (Quit: I'm out, bye)
2021-01-20T14:39:15Z ljavorsk_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T14:39:31Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:40:39Z cods quit (Changing host)
2021-01-20T14:40:39Z cods joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:49:26Z GZJ0X__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T14:50:00Z rtypo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T14:53:39Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:55:27Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-20T14:59:49Z jedii: what are lispers using for persistance lately? postgresql? is there a driver for scylladb.com? or is there a lispy database? or simply use lisp data structures? and serialize?
2021-01-20T15:00:18Z totoro2021 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T15:01:59Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-20T15:03:17Z fitzsim joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:03:34Z totoro2021 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:05:30Z jackdaniel: cl-store is a good choice for serialization
2021-01-20T15:05:30Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:05:49Z phoe: postgres + postmodern + optionally cl-yesql for using an external DB
2021-01-20T15:08:17Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-20T15:10:54Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:13:11Z Fade: maybe it's just me, but I think this font needs to be united with Xach's sparkline hack: http://www.datalegreya.com/?lang=en
2021-01-20T15:13:55Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T15:14:45Z albusp joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:15:40Z varjag: we use cl-store for over-the-wire, and postmodern for storage
2021-01-20T15:18:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T15:18:45Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:19:00Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:19:56Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-20T15:21:41Z fangyrn joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:26:34Z brandflake11 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:26:38Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:27:44Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:34:20Z Josh_2: Ello
2021-01-20T15:37:09Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:39:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T15:41:26Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:41:35Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T15:41:41Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T15:41:45Z kenu joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:43:36Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:43:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T15:44:15Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:46:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T15:46:27Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:46:31Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:48:31Z kenu quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T15:49:16Z jmercouris: why does uiop:define-package exist?
2021-01-20T15:49:20Z jmercouris: why would we use it instead of defpackage?
2021-01-20T15:50:38Z jackdaniel: its docstring provides differences between the two
2021-01-20T15:50:40Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:50:50Z jmercouris: I already clicked it
2021-01-20T15:50:52Z jmercouris: I wasn't convinced
2021-01-20T15:51:11Z phoe: jmercouris: better redefinition support, more options like :mix
2021-01-20T15:51:25Z jackdaniel: the point is that it is different from defpackage and that some people may find it more useful than defpackage
2021-01-20T15:51:28Z phoe: (defpackage #:foo (:use) (:export #:bar))
2021-01-20T15:51:34Z phoe: (defpackage #:foo (:use) (:export))
2021-01-20T15:51:43Z jackdaniel: I personally think that it is a clutter
2021-01-20T15:51:53Z jmercouris: that's another question phoe why do some people #:xyz instead of :xyz?
2021-01-20T15:52:08Z phoe: jmercouris: to avoid interning
2021-01-20T15:52:14Z jmercouris: what's the big deal
2021-01-20T15:52:23Z gxt quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-20T15:52:23Z jmercouris: so what if we intern something in keyword package
2021-01-20T15:52:23Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T15:52:33Z jmercouris: it is not like it will clobber anything
2021-01-20T15:52:33Z phoe: basically, DEFPACKAGE is massively undefined wrt redefining packages
2021-01-20T15:52:35Z jackdaniel: same with articles, what's a big deal: add "an" or skip it whatsoever
2021-01-20T15:52:41Z phoe: because of
2021-01-20T15:52:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:52:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T15:52:51Z phoe: "If the new definition is at variance with the current state of that package, the consequences are undefined; an implementation might choose to modify the existing package to reflect the new definition."
2021-01-20T15:52:58Z jmercouris: phoe: redefinition is a point of contention, I will agree with that
2021-01-20T15:53:04Z phoe: AFAIK UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE has specified behavior for redefinition
2021-01-20T15:53:32Z jmercouris: I don't like #:xyz, seems pointless to me
2021-01-20T15:53:37Z Xach: SBCL used to do everything incrementally so if you encountered a conflict or other issue, the package system would be in a freaky state if you aborted
2021-01-20T15:54:53Z phoe: also its :REEXPORT is very useful for reexporting stuff, and MIX is like USE on steroids if you know how to use it
2021-01-20T15:54:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T15:55:20Z jmercouris: phoe: so do you personally use uiop:define-package?
2021-01-20T15:55:42Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:55:58Z phoe: jmercouris: yes, whenever DEFPACKAGE is not enough for me for whatever reason
2021-01-20T15:56:16Z phoe: usually because I want to redefine packages and SBCL yells at me, or I want to make use of the additional options
2021-01-20T15:56:18Z jmercouris: phoe: why not just use it by default?
2021-01-20T15:56:31Z phoe: jmercouris: dunno, force of habit I suppose
2021-01-20T15:56:46Z jmercouris: if it contains all of the functionality of defpackage and more, why not just use it by default?
2021-01-20T15:57:01Z jackdaniel uses cond for everything
2021-01-20T15:57:11Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: is this some kind of joke?
2021-01-20T15:57:16Z jackdaniel: yes
2021-01-20T15:57:17Z jmercouris: you don't ever use match?
2021-01-20T15:57:31Z jackdaniel: (cond ((test) (foo-bar))) is (when (test) (foo-bar))
2021-01-20T15:57:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T15:57:42Z jmercouris: I think comparing cond to other branching statements vs defpackage to uiop:defpackage is different
2021-01-20T15:57:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T15:57:52Z jackdaniel: (cond ((test) (foo-bar)) (t (qux)) is (if (test) (foo-bar) (qux))
2021-01-20T15:57:53Z jackdaniel: etc
2021-01-20T15:58:10Z jmercouris: when we are talking about specificity of style, there is no more learning provided by uiop:defpackage vs defpackage
2021-01-20T15:58:19Z jmercouris: it's not like somebody will see OH! uiop:define-package!
2021-01-20T15:58:27Z jmercouris: probably the author wants to change the package definition at runtime!
2021-01-20T15:58:29Z jackdaniel: you've lost me there
2021-01-20T15:58:35Z jmercouris: it doesn't matter
2021-01-20T16:04:47Z jmercouris: phoe: why does #:xyz not intern a symbol, what does # do in this context?
2021-01-20T16:04:50Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-20T16:05:07Z phoe: jmercouris: do you know how dispatch reader macros work?
2021-01-20T16:05:11Z beach: It means that the symbol does not have a package.
2021-01-20T16:05:12Z jmercouris: phoe: no
2021-01-20T16:05:20Z phoe: jmercouris: then you should learn about it!
2021-01-20T16:05:26Z jmercouris: phoe: link?
2021-01-20T16:05:30Z jackdaniel: spec #:
2021-01-20T16:05:32Z phoe: same mechanism as #P"foo", #C(1 2) et al
2021-01-20T16:05:38Z jmercouris: phoe: OH!
2021-01-20T16:05:41Z jackdaniel: http://l1sp.org/search?q=%23%3A
2021-01-20T16:05:44Z jmercouris: for example like a list or something
2021-01-20T16:05:49Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:05:52Z jmercouris: or when we have an object?
2021-01-20T16:05:53Z Josh_2: Where do I search for quicklisp libraries
2021-01-20T16:06:02Z jmercouris: Josh_2: (ql:system-apropos xyz)
2021-01-20T16:06:05Z phoe: Josh_2: awesome-cl would be my first try
2021-01-20T16:06:08Z Josh_2: okay thanks
2021-01-20T16:06:11Z phoe: quickref the second
2021-01-20T16:06:19Z Josh_2: well quickdocs is gone
2021-01-20T16:06:27Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects
2021-01-20T16:06:29Z phoe: yes, quickref is kind of a replacement
2021-01-20T16:06:30Z Josh_2: and I'd normally just use quicklisp website
2021-01-20T16:06:36Z phoe: jmercouris: a list, or something? what do you mean
2021-01-20T16:06:40Z jmercouris: phoe: #<XYZ {1003E1B673}>
2021-01-20T16:06:44Z phoe: a dispatch reader macro is just a way to execute code at readtime
2021-01-20T16:06:47Z jmercouris: is that the same thing? that is my instance of a xyz object
2021-01-20T16:06:48Z Josh_2: Also the quicklisp website has a broken search function
2021-01-20T16:06:54Z phoe: yes, #< is a reader macro that signals an error
2021-01-20T16:07:16Z jmercouris: hm, why would "#<XYZ {1003E1B673}>" signal an error?
2021-01-20T16:07:22Z phoe: because you cannot read it back
2021-01-20T16:07:27Z jmercouris: sure I can, I click it in slime
2021-01-20T16:07:29Z jmercouris: and it is there again
2021-01-20T16:07:36Z phoe: it's a presentation, an element of slime
2021-01-20T16:07:36Z jmercouris: it returns the instance again
2021-01-20T16:07:52Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-20T16:07:59Z jmercouris: so what is the point of printing that by default? why doesn't it get me something I can read again that refers to that instance?
2021-01-20T16:08:01Z phoe: (defclass foo () ())
2021-01-20T16:08:07Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:08:07Z phoe: (read-from-string (prin1-to-string (make-instance 'foo)))
2021-01-20T16:08:14Z Josh_2: okay found the library I needed
2021-01-20T16:08:14Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-20T16:08:30Z phoe: jmercouris: because printing readably is not a well-defined term
2021-01-20T16:08:44Z Bike: jmercouris: you can read the string at any time, including after the instance has been garbage collected, or after you restart lisp and the XYZ class isn't even defined
2021-01-20T16:09:00Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:09:03Z phoe: should it create a new object? should it try to intern it somewhere? should it try to find it and signal an error if it does not exist? where should it look for it?
2021-01-20T16:09:06Z phoe: such stuff
2021-01-20T16:09:08Z Josh_2: This is unfortunate
2021-01-20T16:09:18Z jmercouris: phoe: I would expect it to try to find the object, otherwise error if it doesn't exist
2021-01-20T16:09:20Z Josh_2: quickref doesn't provide an easy description for libraries
2021-01-20T16:09:30Z phoe: jmercouris: what do you mean by "trying to find the object"
2021-01-20T16:09:33Z jmercouris: a unique identifier per object
2021-01-20T16:09:42Z phoe: there's no such thing in Lisp though
2021-01-20T16:09:42Z jmercouris: I don't know, shouldn't my implementation have a reference of all existing objects?
2021-01-20T16:09:46Z jmercouris: do they not have unique IDs?
2021-01-20T16:09:51Z Bike: not really, no
2021-01-20T16:09:52Z phoe: no, why would it have those?
2021-01-20T16:09:56Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:09:57Z jmercouris: I don't know, why not?
2021-01-20T16:10:02Z Bike: they might have an address, but GCs often copy things around, so the address isn't constant
2021-01-20T16:10:03Z phoe: memory bloat
2021-01-20T16:10:09Z jmercouris: how does (eq) work? just compares memory address?
2021-01-20T16:10:13Z Bike: usually, yeah
2021-01-20T16:10:14Z phoe: most of the time, yes
2021-01-20T16:10:18Z jmercouris: hm
2021-01-20T16:10:19Z Bike: but that only works at the present time
2021-01-20T16:10:21Z phoe: but memory addresses can, and will, change
2021-01-20T16:10:23Z Bike: you're talking about something future-proof.
2021-01-20T16:10:38Z phoe: try to observe SBCL IDs of unreadable objects over time
2021-01-20T16:10:48Z jmercouris: that is a question I have as well
2021-01-20T16:10:52Z jmercouris: is there a way to mark a specific variable
2021-01-20T16:10:57Z jmercouris: and read its value at any time?
2021-01-20T16:11:01Z Bike: you could get every object an ID tag, but then obviously you'd need to use an extra word of storage for every single object.
2021-01-20T16:11:04Z Bike: jmercouris: mark?
2021-01-20T16:11:04Z jmercouris: or emit its value when it changes?
2021-01-20T16:11:04Z phoe: what do you mean, read its value at any time?
2021-01-20T16:11:05Z jackdaniel: yes! (setf *foo* my-object)
2021-01-20T16:11:11Z jackdaniel: and then you read it with *foo*
2021-01-20T16:11:12Z Bike: oh, like an observer. No.
2021-01-20T16:11:18Z jmercouris: Bike: yeah, I meant like that
2021-01-20T16:11:24Z phoe: you can achieve it via a symbol macro
2021-01-20T16:11:32Z Bike: Of course if you want that you can just define read and write functions that do whatever you want, and then use a symbol macro so it looks exactly the same.
2021-01-20T16:11:33Z phoe: but not via a raw variable
2021-01-20T16:11:42Z jmercouris: hm, I see
2021-01-20T16:11:46Z phoe: or what Bike said, methods would be better overall
2021-01-20T16:11:49Z jmercouris: I always thought that would be a cool slime feature
2021-01-20T16:12:03Z jmercouris: similar to sly labels
2021-01-20T16:12:11Z phoe: 1) because you can't rebind them by accident, 2) because you get all the clos goodness.
2021-01-20T16:12:30Z jmercouris: are funcalls faster than method calls?
2021-01-20T16:13:01Z phoe: you mean standard functions?
2021-01-20T16:13:02Z jmercouris: if not, why do methods and functions exist? why not only methods?
2021-01-20T16:13:18Z phoe: yes, normal function calls are usually faster than generic function calls
2021-01-20T16:13:23Z jmercouris: is (defun xyz (var1)) faster than (defmethod xyz ((var1 var1)))?
2021-01-20T16:13:26Z phoe: I say usually, because beach is working on fixing this
2021-01-20T16:13:52Z jmercouris: I remember him talking about this
2021-01-20T16:13:56Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: did you consider reading a book about CL? like practical common lisp?
2021-01-20T16:13:58Z jmercouris: saying that the performance has to be incredibly fast
2021-01-20T16:14:09Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: did you consider that I have read said book?
2021-01-20T16:14:09Z sword865 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-20T16:14:24Z jackdaniel: no, given you ask some questions that are literally answered in there
2021-01-20T16:14:27Z phoe: but, yes, normal functions do not need to do argument dispatch
2021-01-20T16:14:50Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: oh yeah, I totally forgot that chapter about implementation specific details regarding object IDs
2021-01-20T16:15:10Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: where the author goes into an explanation of why eq would use memory addresses instead
2021-01-20T16:15:15Z jmercouris: that's a good section, sorry about that
2021-01-20T16:15:21Z phoe: I assume jackdaniel meant dispatch macros and GF call overhead though
2021-01-20T16:15:26Z jackdaniel: no, I mean things like what is a difference between a method and a function
2021-01-20T16:15:44Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: oh yeah, I also forgot about the section where the author talks about dispatching method performance
2021-01-20T16:15:48Z jmercouris: that is a good section
2021-01-20T16:16:00Z jmercouris: where he explains the difference between how long a function call vs a method call takes, and why
2021-01-20T16:16:10Z jackdaniel: you don't call methods
2021-01-20T16:16:15Z jmercouris: Oh right, sorry
2021-01-20T16:16:17Z beach: There is no such thing as a method call.
2021-01-20T16:16:26Z beach: Well, there kind of is.
2021-01-20T16:16:33Z beach: clhs call-method
2021-01-20T16:16:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_call_m.htm
2021-01-20T16:16:35Z jmercouris: Except for the way that literally everyone in the world uses it
2021-01-20T16:16:46Z jmercouris: when I write (xyz 123) I'm pretty sure everyone would say I am calling a method
2021-01-20T16:16:58Z Bike: no, because multiple methods might be involved, you know?
2021-01-20T16:16:59Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.
2021-01-20T16:17:05Z Bike: thanks to call-next-method and stuff
2021-01-20T16:17:05Z jmercouris: ay yai yai
2021-01-20T16:17:10Z jmercouris: IT IS EVEN IN THE NAME
2021-01-20T16:17:13Z jmercouris: CALL-NEXT-METHOD
2021-01-20T16:17:15Z jmercouris: are you kidding me
2021-01-20T16:17:19Z Bike: yes, if you use call-next-method you are calling a method.
2021-01-20T16:17:25Z phoe: > when I write (xyz 123) I'm pretty sure everyone would say I am calling a method
2021-01-20T16:17:28Z phoe: wait what
2021-01-20T16:17:30Z Bike: but if you do (xyz 123) you are calling a generic function, which may result in multiple methods being called.
2021-01-20T16:17:39Z jmercouris: Bike: it sure might
2021-01-20T16:17:40Z phoe: you're calling some sorta function, or macro, I don't know what XYZ is
2021-01-20T16:17:51Z jmercouris: ... anyways
2021-01-20T16:17:55Z jmercouris: please, enough of this gaslighting
2021-01-20T16:18:04Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: my point is that you sometimes tend to ask questions that could be easily looked up, like about dispatch macro #:foo
2021-01-20T16:18:05Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: do not make such a suggestion ever again
2021-01-20T16:18:15Z jmercouris: I find it really irritating
2021-01-20T16:18:29Z jmercouris: if you want, just say "it is in book XYZ"
2021-01-20T16:18:30Z jmercouris: and leave it at that
2021-01-20T16:19:08Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure how to respond to this tone, so I'll get back to other things
2021-01-20T16:20:28Z phoe: anyway - GFs, most of the time, are slower than normal functions
2021-01-20T16:20:29Z jackdaniel: (mind, I'm not used to take orders from strangers, so I may suggest it again)
2021-01-20T16:20:54Z jmercouris: I'm asking you the couresty of not enraging me... perhaps too much to ask
2021-01-20T16:21:35Z phoe: current CLOS implementations work in a way where GFs must do runtime argument dispatch that cannot be done at compile time
2021-01-20T16:21:43Z phoe: so, first source of overhead
2021-01-20T16:21:59Z phoe: second, effective methods must be computed - second source of overhead, even if they are cached
2021-01-20T16:22:33Z jmercouris: phoe: I just don't understand, why could we not precompute ALL of this?
2021-01-20T16:22:46Z phoe: jmercouris: adding/removing methods at runtime
2021-01-20T16:22:57Z jmercouris: phoe: yes, then we must go through all objects and recompute things
2021-01-20T16:23:03Z phoe: if you want your GFs to be redefinable, then you need to take this into account
2021-01-20T16:23:08Z jmercouris: if we had a reference of all objects, then we could do so
2021-01-20T16:23:18Z Vultyre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T16:23:24Z jmercouris: we always trade memory for runtime performance
2021-01-20T16:23:28Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:23:38Z jmercouris: we could make the trade for memory in this context
2021-01-20T16:23:49Z phoe: actually lots of this stuff can be precomputed at compile-time; that's what beach is working on now
2021-01-20T16:24:05Z phoe: it's just not done in modern complete CL implementations
2021-01-20T16:24:19Z jmercouris: so you are telling me that SICL will have a really fast generic function dispatch
2021-01-20T16:24:27Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-20T16:24:28Z Bike: what you can't compute ahead of time is the actual dispatch, generally speaking. If you have one method specialized on class xyz, and one specialized on class zyx, and you call the generic function on an argument and it's not discernable at compile time that it's definitely one of those classes, the generic function has to actually check the class.
2021-01-20T16:24:31Z jmercouris: and that implementation developers will just pop that bad boy into their implementation?
2021-01-20T16:24:57Z jmercouris: Bike: I believe that you *can*
2021-01-20T16:25:01Z jmercouris: for example
2021-01-20T16:25:03Z Bike: can what?
2021-01-20T16:25:15Z jmercouris: sorry, I reread what you said
2021-01-20T16:25:17Z jmercouris: you said compile time
2021-01-20T16:25:56Z jmercouris: consider this, whenever we create an object, we give it a list of functions it can invoke
2021-01-20T16:26:05Z jmercouris: depending on the type of object this is, that list will be different
2021-01-20T16:26:07Z Bike: i'm familiar with vtables.
2021-01-20T16:26:09Z phoe: jmercouris: "just pop that bad boy into" is troublesome because different implementations do it differently
2021-01-20T16:26:20Z jmercouris: Bike: is that what I am suggesting, a vtable?
2021-01-20T16:26:25Z Bike: it sounds like it to me.
2021-01-20T16:26:29Z phoe: also vtables don't work in Lisp because methods don't belong to objects
2021-01-20T16:26:34Z phoe: they belong to GFs
2021-01-20T16:26:39Z jmercouris: phoe: I get it
2021-01-20T16:26:42Z Bike: vtables don't always work for lisp because we have multimethods, i.e. a generic function does different things depending on the classes of _multiple_ objects.
2021-01-20T16:26:43Z jmercouris: but could we not just update them?
2021-01-20T16:26:44Z phoe: so a slight modification of that is needed
2021-01-20T16:26:50Z phoe: update what exactly?
2021-01-20T16:26:51Z jmercouris: could we not store permutations
2021-01-20T16:27:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T16:27:06Z jmercouris: like a 'pseudo' class of permutation X, Y with a set of viable functions
2021-01-20T16:27:14Z Bike: How would you look up the permutation?
2021-01-20T16:27:14Z jmercouris: am I making sense?
2021-01-20T16:27:24Z Bike: Like, is this stored with the X object or the Y object or what?
2021-01-20T16:27:25Z jmercouris: well you would have some data structure in memory, I don't know
2021-01-20T16:27:32Z phoe: I think this is more or less what already happens e.g. with regard to effective method functions in SBCL
2021-01-20T16:27:32Z jmercouris: Bike: in another object
2021-01-20T16:27:47Z jmercouris: some global magical object that knows that X, Y invoke function Q
2021-01-20T16:27:57Z Bike: You could store a map from lists of classes to effective methods in the generic function
2021-01-20T16:27:59Z jmercouris: you just give it a list of objects, and it has precomputed it
2021-01-20T16:28:14Z jmercouris: Bike: or that, sure
2021-01-20T16:28:15Z Bike: that is pretty much exactly how beach's method works. however, it's still nonzero overhead compared to doing no dispatch at all
2021-01-20T16:28:45Z jmercouris: I see
2021-01-20T16:28:47Z jmercouris: and there is no faster way?
2021-01-20T16:29:09Z Bike: I mean, fundamentally the generic function is doing something the non-generic function isn't
2021-01-20T16:29:17Z jmercouris: that's true
2021-01-20T16:29:21Z jmercouris: how does the non-generic function get invoked?
2021-01-20T16:29:29Z jmercouris: we look up the symbol, and then get the function pointer or something, right?
2021-01-20T16:29:31Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:29:45Z Bike: That's one way.
2021-01-20T16:29:48Z phoe: if you want redefinability at runtime, no, unless you literally want to recompile all of your calling code whenever you add or remove a method I guess
2021-01-20T16:29:58Z Bike: Usually there's only one or two dereferences to get a function pointer, and then you call that.
2021-01-20T16:30:15Z jmercouris: OK
2021-01-20T16:30:17Z jmercouris: so here is the idea
2021-01-20T16:30:23Z jmercouris: we take X Y right
2021-01-20T16:30:27Z jmercouris: and we know that they must invoke Q
2021-01-20T16:30:32Z jmercouris: so instead of doing a look-up
2021-01-20T16:30:37Z trocado quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T16:30:38Z jmercouris: we make a pseudo symbol in some other package
2021-01-20T16:30:48Z jmercouris: it could be something like XY and it points to the Q function
2021-01-20T16:30:57Z jmercouris: and then we just call that, there are no extra steps here
2021-01-20T16:31:02Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:31:05Z phoe: what's XY?
2021-01-20T16:31:11Z Bike: Okay, but I mean, you do whatever lookup at runtime still, since you don't know at compile time that the function is going to be called with objects of classes X and Y.
2021-01-20T16:31:15Z phoe: oh, these are the calling functions
2021-01-20T16:31:16Z jmercouris: XY is a combination of the class names X and Y
2021-01-20T16:31:49Z Bike: If you do know the classes ahead of time you can skip runtime dispatch sometimes kinda, but in general you don't have that information.
2021-01-20T16:31:57Z jmercouris: Bike: yeah, you do it at runtime, but you don't do it at call time
2021-01-20T16:32:05Z Bike: For example you can do like (foo (read) (read)) and then the foo function could be called with literally anything.
2021-01-20T16:32:28Z Bike: I don't understand what you mean.
2021-01-20T16:32:36Z Josh_2: I have a large collection of strings and I need to find a string that matches closest to an input string, what datastructure should I use to store my strings?
2021-01-20T16:32:52Z Bike: closest like what, hamming distance?
2021-01-20T16:32:54Z phoe: closest by what metric?
2021-01-20T16:32:55Z jmercouris: when I'm doing (salmon x y), it WILL KNOW that salmon is really supposed to be Q (Q X Y)
2021-01-20T16:33:01Z Bike: What will know and when?
2021-01-20T16:33:01Z Josh_2: yes hamming distance I think
2021-01-20T16:33:08Z jmercouris: Josh_2: mk string metrics
2021-01-20T16:33:19Z Josh_2: jmercouris: what?
2021-01-20T16:33:24Z Bike: https://github.com/cbaggers/mk-string-metrics oh, neat.
2021-01-20T16:33:26Z jmercouris: Josh_2: library will give you this
2021-01-20T16:33:32Z Josh_2: Yes
2021-01-20T16:33:44Z Josh_2: I have loaded this library
2021-01-20T16:33:44Z Bike: I don't think this includes an efficient data structure for lookup though. I don't know what structure would be best off the top of my head.
2021-01-20T16:33:48Z Josh_2: ^
2021-01-20T16:33:59Z phoe: jmercouris: yes, that's a special case - if you know argument classes ahead of time then you don't need to check them
2021-01-20T16:34:07Z Bike: Seems like something there are CS notation filled papers on
2021-01-20T16:34:53Z Bike: https://github.com/pkhuong/string-case pkhuong wrote this for the case where the match has to be exact, and it's already pretty involved
2021-01-20T16:35:27Z jmercouris: phoe: yeah, that is most cases though, no?
2021-01-20T16:35:32Z jmercouris: phoe: do we have metrics data about this?
2021-01-20T16:35:44Z jmercouris: otherwise we cannot define an efficient data structure, we must know the nature of the data
2021-01-20T16:36:01Z jmercouris: actually, the compiler could even be intelligent and evolve the data structure over time via usage, or via some parameters
2021-01-20T16:36:41Z Bike: yeah, it could be pretty involved indeed. pkhuong's thing here doesn't include branch prediction info iirc
2021-01-20T16:36:53Z Bike: like, if you know that some string is more common than another, you can incorporate that to speed things up a little
2021-01-20T16:37:00Z euandreh_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:37:56Z jmercouris: Josh_2: I think you will probably want to write your own data structure, nothing built-in will be performant enough
2021-01-20T16:38:05Z jmercouris: s/performant/suitable
2021-01-20T16:38:12Z Josh_2: thats what I was thinking
2021-01-20T16:38:16Z Josh_2: unfortunate
2021-01-20T16:38:38Z jmercouris: I would write a structure that decomposes the strings into things I can look up via partial parts
2021-01-20T16:38:46Z jmercouris: for example, if I have the string "salmon"
2021-01-20T16:38:58Z Josh_2: for testing purposes the performance isn't a problem, but if I ended up with 10000 different strings and I have to test each user input against them it would end up a problem
2021-01-20T16:39:00Z jmercouris: I would have a hash table with entries "sal" "salm" and "salmo" all pointing to salmon
2021-01-20T16:39:11Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-20T16:39:32Z jmercouris: Josh_2: if you know some things like length of string you can resaonably decompose the search size
2021-01-20T16:39:37Z jmercouris: s/decompose/reduce the search space
2021-01-20T16:39:38Z Josh_2: 10000 different strings and then the users inputs 5 for each search..
2021-01-20T16:39:47Z Josh_2: which I wont
2021-01-20T16:39:49Z jmercouris: you could also condier suffix and prefix for reducing the search space
2021-01-20T16:40:00Z jmercouris: OR, you could use another library
2021-01-20T16:40:07Z jmercouris: I would use a spell check library with a custom dictionary
2021-01-20T16:40:13Z jmercouris: I would use cl-charm or whatever, I think it is called
2021-01-20T16:40:15Z jmercouris: with a custom dictionary
2021-01-20T16:40:15Z Josh_2: yes that could work
2021-01-20T16:40:25Z jmercouris: let me find the name, one moment please
2021-01-20T16:40:25Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-20T16:40:49Z jmercouris: Josh_2: enchant
2021-01-20T16:41:02Z jmercouris: Josh_2: https://github.com/tlikonen/cl-enchant
2021-01-20T16:41:30Z jmercouris: so then you will just make a dict from your source strings, and compare user input to them
2021-01-20T16:41:41Z Josh_2: I think that might be the best way to do it
2021-01-20T16:41:41Z beach: jmercouris: The reason most programmers would say that (xyz 123) is a method call is that they know only impoverished languages where a call like that invokes a single method.  But Common Lisp has auxiliary methods and also different method combinations, resulting in several methods being invoked by a single call like that.
2021-01-20T16:42:06Z jmercouris: beach: yeah, I knew what you guys were getting at, I'm just being stubborn
2021-01-20T16:43:22Z beach: jmercouris: There is another reason that #:xyz is preferred to :xyz which is that you send a clear message to the person reading your code that only the *name* of the symbol is important, and not its package.  Consider a call such as (f '#:xyz 234) vs (f :xyz 234).  It is clear that in the first case, only the name of the symbol in important.  In the second case, it can very well be a keyword argument.
2021-01-20T16:43:52Z jmercouris: hm, you are right, I never thought of that actually
2021-01-20T16:43:54Z beach: jmercouris: And it is important to write code so that the person reading the code gets as much information as possible from every element of it.
2021-01-20T16:43:59Z jmercouris: I'm not sure it matters in the context of defpackage
2021-01-20T16:44:30Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-20T16:45:26Z beach: jmercouris: As many software engineers point out, the compiler is not the only entity reading code.  Other tools may as well.  So if you use a keyword, the person reading the code might think that some other tool requires a package for the symbol.
2021-01-20T16:45:39Z beach: jmercouris: You should always be consistent with things like this.
2021-01-20T16:45:55Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:45:59Z Nilby: Is there a portable bivalent streams library?
2021-01-20T16:46:07Z phoe: flexi-streams?
2021-01-20T16:47:15Z Nilby: Hmmm. It's close, but not exactly.
2021-01-20T16:47:19Z jmercouris: beach: I will think about this, thanks for the advice
2021-01-20T16:47:26Z jmercouris: I must go for now, dinner and then church
2021-01-20T16:47:28Z phoe: Nilby: what do you mean?
2021-01-20T16:47:37Z jmercouris: goodbye thank you for conversation phoe , beach, Bike
2021-01-20T16:47:43Z beach: Take care.
2021-01-20T16:47:43Z Josh_2: "The alien function "enchant_broker_init" is undefined." thats unfortunate :(
2021-01-20T16:47:46Z Josh_2: when trying to use enchant
2021-01-20T16:49:08Z Nilby: phoe: flexi-streams can take a byte stream and read it as a character stream, but I don't think it can take a character stream and let you do both read-char and read-byte.
2021-01-20T16:52:01Z Josh_2: rip seems enchant is broken, trying to (ql:quickload "echant-autoload") it cant find the libenchant.so despite the fact I have installed enchant
2021-01-20T16:52:52Z Josh_2: "enchant-autoload"*
2021-01-20T16:53:24Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:53:26Z phoe: Nilby: hmmm, I don't think that's feasible because of all the different encodings either; inserting a stray byte might break character ordering maybe
2021-01-20T16:53:29Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:53:37Z shka_: indeed
2021-01-20T16:53:41Z phoe: what's your use case with writing bytes to a char stream?
2021-01-20T16:53:47Z shka_: character can be 16 bit long
2021-01-20T16:53:57Z shka_: for instance
2021-01-20T16:54:04Z phoe: or 32, or variable
2021-01-20T16:54:32Z beach: What does it mean for a character to be x bits long?
2021-01-20T16:55:04Z phoe: when using encoding X, then the encoded representation of that character is X bits long
2021-01-20T16:55:13Z phoe: I guess a mental shortcut happened there
2021-01-20T16:55:30Z beach: As in integer-length?
2021-01-20T16:55:44Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T16:56:21Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-20T16:56:30Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:56:39Z phoe: not really, more like length of a bit vector
2021-01-20T16:57:12Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-20T16:57:39Z phoe: because a null character encoded in UTF-8 is not 0 bits long
2021-01-20T16:57:46Z shka_: well, i thought it's obvious
2021-01-20T16:58:08Z phoe: dealing with character encodings is sometimes anything but obvious
2021-01-20T16:58:13Z beach: Oh, UTF-8.  Got it.
2021-01-20T16:58:16Z shka_: number of bits used to encode a single character is encoding obvious
2021-01-20T16:58:31Z phoe: again, not obvious in UTF-8 :D
2021-01-20T16:58:41Z shka_: unicode or utf?
2021-01-20T16:58:42Z Nilby: phoe: It's true it's troublesome. But even normal character streams with encodings have such problems.
2021-01-20T16:59:20Z phoe: shka_: in variable-length encodings in general
2021-01-20T16:59:27Z beach: Boy, that was a weird discussion on generic dispatch.  I guess I am glad I was out right then.
2021-01-20T16:59:42Z shka_: anyway, if you need such stuff, simply use just bytes
2021-01-20T16:59:45Z phoe: things are easy when you have UTF-32 and every char is an (unsigned-byte 32) under the hood
2021-01-20T17:00:00Z shka_: and use this enormously useful library https://common-lisp.net/project/babel/
2021-01-20T17:00:16Z phoe: but I guess that what shka_ said is the best way forward - open a byte stream instead of a character one
2021-01-20T17:01:28Z Nilby: Unfortunately I have to deal with character strings.
2021-01-20T17:01:44Z shka_: Nilby: that's why i recommend this library
2021-01-20T17:01:57Z shka_: you can use to convert strings<->byte arrays
2021-01-20T17:02:00Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-20T17:02:29Z tassleoff quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-20T17:02:37Z shka_: it is obviously slower then using builtin implementation facilities for the text streams, but not as significant as i you would think
2021-01-20T17:03:16Z shka_: as a result, you can reduce your streams to be just bytes
2021-01-20T17:03:17Z Nilby: Right, but I need it as a stream.
2021-01-20T17:03:25Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-20T17:03:37Z shka_: well, flexistreams?
2021-01-20T17:03:45Z shka_: i think that it was already suggested
2021-01-20T17:03:47Z shka_: no?
2021-01-20T17:04:02Z Nilby: flexi-streams is great, but it doesn't cover my case
2021-01-20T17:04:08Z shka_: hm, ok
2021-01-20T17:04:19Z shka_: i think that i misunderstood you
2021-01-20T17:04:45Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-20T17:04:46Z Nilby: Actually sbcl already does it with it's bivalent streams. I just want it to be portable.
2021-01-20T17:04:49Z awkravchuk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T17:05:27Z shka_: Nilby: if it is only interface that bothers you, you can implement your own stream
2021-01-20T17:05:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-20T17:05:54Z shka_: it is not that difficult if i recall
2021-01-20T17:06:05Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T17:06:07Z andreyorst_ is now known as andreyorst
2021-01-20T17:06:26Z shka_: otherwise i am out of ideas
2021-01-20T17:06:27Z Nilby: Yes. I think I will. It's actually not just interface, it's no having to read the whole thing into memory.
2021-01-20T17:06:42Z shka_: well, yeah, obviously it is a factor
2021-01-20T17:07:34Z shka_: glad that you have a plan, anyway
2021-01-20T17:08:13Z Nilby: Now if I could only delegate this task to my employees.
2021-01-20T17:09:12Z shka_: heh, i feel ya!
2021-01-20T17:09:54Z shka_: just hire me, i am very cost-efficient ;-)
2021-01-20T17:10:45Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-20T17:10:49Z Nilby: I would probably hire a lot of folks here if I had a company and money.
2021-01-20T17:13:22Z shka_: it is nice to hear :-)
2021-01-20T17:13:23Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T17:13:27Z shka_: anyway, have a good evening
2021-01-20T17:13:40Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T17:13:55Z Nilby: Thanks. You too.
2021-01-20T17:15:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T17:16:56Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T17:26:19Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-20T17:40:56Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-20T17:40:57Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-20T17:43:13Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T17:44:43Z mrchampion quit (Read error: No route to host)
2021-01-20T17:47:19Z GZJ0X__ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T17:47:48Z mrchampion joined #lisp
2021-01-20T17:52:01Z GZJ0X__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T17:56:05Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T17:58:26Z andreyor1 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T18:00:13Z aorst quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-20T18:05:01Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-20T18:05:19Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-20T18:05:40Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T18:07:22Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T18:07:24Z karlosz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T18:13:01Z summerisle quit (Quit: In my vision, I was on the veranda of a vast estate, a palazzo of some fantastic proportion.)
2021-01-20T18:13:11Z summerisle joined #lisp
2021-01-20T18:14:10Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T18:15:35Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-20T18:20:14Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-20T18:21:52Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-20T18:23:35Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-20T18:26:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T18:26:35Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T18:28:35Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-20T18:28:35Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T18:29:09Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T18:36:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T18:39:04Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T18:41:29Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T18:42:23Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T18:43:11Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T18:45:57Z makomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-20T18:55:28Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-20T18:55:59Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T18:56:12Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T18:59:13Z X-Scale joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:01:09Z X-Scale` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T19:02:40Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-20T19:03:36Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:04:56Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T19:04:56Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-20T19:05:12Z secretmyth joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:05:22Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:06:25Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T19:06:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T19:08:05Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T19:08:18Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T19:08:34Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:08:41Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:09:41Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:10:23Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:17:43Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:20:46Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T19:22:58Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:29:09Z andreyor1 is now known as andreyorst_
2021-01-20T19:30:37Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:32:42Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-20T19:36:12Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:36:39Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:41:34Z secretmyth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T19:41:38Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T19:49:05Z gclv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T19:53:55Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:54:38Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T19:55:52Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-20T19:57:48Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-20T19:58:12Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:01:46Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:02:40Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T20:03:52Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:04:02Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:06:43Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T20:07:23Z bendersteed quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T20:07:25Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:09:26Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-20T20:10:22Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:11:48Z amk quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T20:12:47Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T20:13:19Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T20:14:54Z amk joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:18:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T20:20:37Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:22:07Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:24:19Z andreyorst_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T20:26:04Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:26:17Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-20T20:36:48Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T20:38:22Z gabiruh quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-20T20:39:13Z gabiruh joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:39:13Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T20:39:46Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:40:42Z varjagg joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:41:54Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T20:41:54Z amk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T20:41:54Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T20:41:54Z cyraxjoe quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-20T20:41:56Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-20T20:42:01Z totoro2021 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T20:42:02Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T20:42:13Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:42:30Z totoro2021 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:42:35Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T20:42:36Z jealousmonk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T20:42:36Z amk joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:42:57Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:43:38Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:43:57Z jealousmonk joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:46:49Z villanella quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T20:47:57Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:48:42Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-20T20:50:52Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-20T20:58:58Z fangyrn quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-20T21:01:35Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T21:03:17Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:03:50Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-20T21:05:12Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-20T21:12:44Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T21:14:31Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:14:33Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:18:48Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:20:02Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:25:45Z gclv joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:25:50Z gclv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T21:27:38Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T21:27:56Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T21:29:19Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T21:29:47Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:32:11Z caret quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T21:33:33Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T21:34:52Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:35:12Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:36:07Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:38:31Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:44:53Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:50:53Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T21:51:55Z mrcom_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T21:52:53Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T21:56:02Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T21:56:29Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-20T21:57:59Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-20T22:00:36Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T22:04:56Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T22:05:26Z mrcom_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T22:05:35Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-20T22:07:58Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T22:10:49Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-20T22:11:05Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-20T22:11:09Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T22:16:57Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-20T22:19:06Z attila_lendvai_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T22:20:01Z F________ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T22:20:14Z F________ is now known as Feldman
2021-01-20T22:21:11Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
2021-01-20T22:21:21Z Feldman: Hello, is scymtym online?
2021-01-20T22:21:49Z scymtym: Feldman: sure
2021-01-20T22:22:31Z Feldman: So I was looking at Robert Strandh's paper and I wanted to implpment it as my university project. I was told on the discord that you had partial done some of it and that I should contact you.
2021-01-20T22:23:08Z scymtym: which paper are you referring to?
2021-01-20T22:23:49Z Feldman: The one on generic dispatch
2021-01-20T22:23:58Z Feldman: http://metamodular.com/SICL/generic-dispatch.pdf
2021-01-20T22:24:41Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-20T22:26:23Z scymtym: i see. by now, there are multiple implementations that are to some extent based on that technique. what i did is actually pretty far from what the paper describes. part of the reason is that i targeted SBCL
2021-01-20T22:26:45Z scymtym: i talked a bit about my implementation here: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/dispatch-demo.ogv
2021-01-20T22:27:28Z Feldman: are there? which implementations?
2021-01-20T22:28:42Z scymtym: as far as i know, SICL (by Robert Standh) has one, ECL has most of the required infrastructure and Clasp more or less implements what is described in the paper
2021-01-20T22:29:16Z Feldman: that's very good to hear, but SBCL doesn't have it at the moment?
2021-01-20T22:29:26Z scymtym: correct
2021-01-20T22:29:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T22:29:47Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T22:30:04Z Feldman: Do you think it would still be worthwhile writing my own implementation in the SBCL code?
2021-01-20T22:30:05Z scymtym: i did everything as a separate generic function class and only as a prototype
2021-01-20T22:30:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T22:30:43Z scymtym: depends on what your goal is
2021-01-20T22:31:01Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-20T22:31:17Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-20T22:31:26Z Feldman: Fast generic functions on SBCL
2021-01-20T22:31:39Z Feldman: a vaguely novel university project
2021-01-20T22:31:49Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-20T22:32:47Z nullman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T22:34:08Z scymtym: that is worthwhile in my opinion, but i'm not sure it would make a good university project. since SBCL organizes standard instances and also other objects very differently compared to the assumptions of the paper, you would have to bridge over many gaps
2021-01-20T22:34:32Z scymtym: while that makes the project more interesting and researchy, it is also hard and requires time
2021-01-20T22:34:41Z Feldman: How  does SBCL organise them?
2021-01-20T22:34:48Z scymtym: as i said, what i did is pretty far from the paper
2021-01-20T22:35:33Z Feldman: Officially the project is 300 hours of work, but in practice it ends up being more than that.
2021-01-20T22:35:37Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T22:35:42Z scymtym: SBCL has immediate objects with lowtags, instances with a layout, a classoid and a class, "other pointers" with a widetag
2021-01-20T22:36:00Z scymtym: (you can get a feeling for those in the video i linked)
2021-01-20T22:36:16Z Feldman: (yeah the video is still downloading)
2021-01-20T22:37:02Z scymtym: i think making something that could actually replace the dispatch part of PCL in SBCL is much more work. you could aim for a proof-of-concept, of course
2021-01-20T22:37:42Z Feldman: Hmm..., what about implementing it in CCL then? Would CCL be more amenable?
2021-01-20T22:38:06Z scymtym: you know what, i mentioned that ECL now has some of the infrastructure required for fastgf which was in fact added in order to eventually implement it. maybe as jackdaniel about adding fastgf to ECL instead
2021-01-20T22:38:32Z scymtym: *maybe ask
2021-01-20T22:40:04Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T22:45:13Z Bike: i have also implemented the thing, so you can ask me too
2021-01-20T22:45:24Z Bike: it's true that it relies on how standard objects are structured
2021-01-20T22:45:37Z Kingsy joined #lisp
2021-01-20T22:45:52Z Feldman: sorry what do you mean implemented "the thing"? what thing? (infrastructre on ECL, worked on fastgf on Clasp etc)
2021-01-20T22:47:10Z Bike: i have implemented beach's fast generic dispatch in clasp
2021-01-20T22:47:28Z Bike: i mean, drmeister did it first, but i've pretty much rewritten it all a few times by now, so i'm familiar with the workings
2021-01-20T22:48:51Z Feldman: ah ok, so how difficult would it be for SBCL vs CCL vs ECL
2021-01-20T22:49:40Z scymtym: i would say ECL probably much easier than SBCL. i have no idea for CCL
2021-01-20T22:49:51Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T22:50:44Z Feldman: My worry with ECL is that if all the "infrastructre" is there, it might not be enough to count, but SBCL does seem much harder yeah.
2021-01-20T22:51:10Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T22:53:11Z scymtym: jackdaniel is one of the maintainers of ECL. he should have a good idea of what would need to be done for ECL. he is available in this channel during European daytime most of the time
2021-01-20T22:54:04Z Feldman: Scymtym, what exactly did you mean by "infrastructure" now that I think of it? I'll make sure to contact jackdaniel as well ofc
2021-01-20T22:55:02Z scymtym: i don't know any details but i think jackdaniel changed or extended the object representation in ECL to add stamps
2021-01-20T22:56:21Z Feldman: ahh I see that would make it much nicer
2021-01-20T23:00:54Z scymtym: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23sicl?around=1586853658#1586853658
2021-01-20T23:01:02Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T23:01:48Z matijja quit (Quit: bye)
2021-01-20T23:02:04Z matijja joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:02:06Z Feldman: Thanks
2021-01-20T23:02:58Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T23:03:32Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:07:20Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:12:11Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T23:13:37Z edgar-rft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-20T23:13:56Z swflint quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-20T23:14:08Z edgar-xyz joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:14:22Z okflo` joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:14:29Z okflo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T23:14:39Z ebrasca` joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:15:14Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T23:16:48Z swflint joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:20:18Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-20T23:20:53Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:20:57Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-20T23:28:42Z Bike: even with that in place, implementing the rest is plenty of work
2021-01-20T23:36:36Z Feldman: Yeah if "infrastructe" is just the stamp then it should be perfect.
2021-01-20T23:36:54Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-20T23:39:11Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-20T23:42:19Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:42:27Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-20T23:43:28Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-20T23:44:31Z Vultyre_ joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:44:46Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:46:06Z emaczen joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:47:20Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:50:20Z nightfly quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-20T23:52:18Z Feldman quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-20T23:53:48Z nightfly joined #lisp
2021-01-20T23:55:43Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-20T23:59:48Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T00:03:59Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-21T00:09:29Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-21T00:15:23Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T00:15:46Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T00:15:49Z Vultyre_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T00:18:08Z troydm quit (Quit: What is Hope? That all of your wishes and all of your dreams come true? To turn back time because things were not supposed to happen like that (C) Rau Le Creuset)
2021-01-21T00:18:40Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-21T00:20:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T00:23:58Z edgar-rft quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T00:24:04Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-21T00:29:10Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-21T00:30:06Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T00:31:05Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T00:35:19Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-21T00:48:16Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-21T01:03:29Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-21T01:06:38Z ludston joined #lisp
2021-01-21T01:16:21Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-21T01:24:49Z jedii quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-21T01:26:10Z jedii joined #lisp
2021-01-21T01:38:12Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-21T01:43:14Z npfaro joined #lisp
2021-01-21T01:43:24Z npfaro: hi
2021-01-21T01:44:14Z npfaro: i have a problem with slime/emacs. When i put the cursor inside a form where the auto-complete would kick in, it puts the Common Lisp one provided from slime in the minibuffer, but then about half a second later it's overwritten by the ELisp one
2021-01-21T01:44:16Z npfaro: which is quite annoying
2021-01-21T01:44:21Z npfaro: has this happened to anyone else
2021-01-21T01:47:21Z ludston: npfaro: Are you using the lastest version of Emacs/slime/your lisp implementation? What auto-complete package are you using in emacs?
2021-01-21T01:48:40Z npfaro: ludston: not really auto-complete but rather the little function signature that appears in the minibuffer. I think it's called eldoc? I just disabled eldoc-mode in the lisp buffer though and it's still doing it so idk
2021-01-21T01:48:50Z npfaro: I can try updating my stuff
2021-01-21T01:50:33Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-21T01:53:13Z npfaro: i should be on the latest slime now
2021-01-21T01:53:17Z npfaro: no difference
2021-01-21T01:55:05Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T01:55:51Z ludston: Probably something in your .emacs file is hooking elisp to the same auto-complete lib? I assume you are coding in both elisp and CL?
2021-01-21T01:56:00Z npfaro: https://i.imgur.com/bwEKemF.gif
2021-01-21T01:56:04Z npfaro: Here's a gif of the issue
2021-01-21T01:56:11Z npfaro: watch the minibuffer
2021-01-21T01:56:19Z npfaro: I'm not actually coding in elisp, just CL
2021-01-21T01:56:48Z ludston: Oh my that's annoying
2021-01-21T01:58:02Z Bike: i've never seen that before. was eldoc-mode the only elisp mode?
2021-01-21T01:59:01Z npfaro: eldoc mode isn't actually an elisp mode i don't believe
2021-01-21T01:59:06Z npfaro: it's for any language
2021-01-21T01:59:25Z npfaro: also, disabling it doesn't get rid of the issue
2021-01-21T01:59:30Z npfaro: so it might be unrelated to eldoc
2021-01-21T01:59:47Z Bike: i'm just wondering if there's some other mode doing it.
2021-01-21T02:00:26Z npfaro: is lisp-mode the correct mode to be editing CL in?
2021-01-21T02:00:43Z ludston: To me it smells like there is some hook in your .emacs file like (add-to-list 'some-elmacs-buffer-hook 'some-elisp-fn-lookup)
2021-01-21T02:00:58Z Bike: on my system lisp files are edited in the lisp major mode, yes.
2021-01-21T02:01:24Z npfaro: https://pastebin.com/cuTWWvEG
2021-01-21T02:01:30Z Bike: it looks like i have both eldoc and global-eldoc minor modes on but loop displays correctly
2021-01-21T02:01:56Z Bike: oh, you have... quite a few more minor modes than i do
2021-01-21T02:02:12Z Bike: same slime minor modes as me tho
2021-01-21T02:02:17Z npfaro: yeah, i use spacemacs :p
2021-01-21T02:03:19Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-21T02:03:19Z ludston: You might be better off asking a spacemacs channel if there is one
2021-01-21T02:04:03Z npfaro: alright. as far as i can tell, there's nothing touching elisp or slime in my config file
2021-01-21T02:06:02Z ludston: I'm assuming that slime-autodoc mode is what is bugging out
2021-01-21T02:07:30Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T02:07:54Z kaftejiman joined #lisp
2021-01-21T02:08:10Z ludston: Could be a conflict between company and slime-autodoc?
2021-01-21T02:09:17Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-21T02:09:25Z ludston: It's weird that you have company, but not slime-company
2021-01-21T02:10:16Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T02:10:31Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-21T02:10:31Z fourier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T02:10:44Z brandflake11 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T02:11:15Z fourier joined #lisp
2021-01-21T02:11:49Z Nilby: I ran into problems like this. But I'm not sure I solved them. I just turned off slime-autodoc.
2021-01-21T02:11:50Z npfaro: aha. it's "semantic-mode" that's causing the issue
2021-01-21T02:12:07Z Nilby: But I have some code like this https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2248#2248 in my start up.
2021-01-21T02:15:42Z npfaro: looks like global-semantic-idle-summary is the culprit
2021-01-21T02:15:50Z npfaro: Do any of you folks use that mode successfully
2021-01-21T02:15:52Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T02:15:53Z npfaro: or is it even worth having turned on
2021-01-21T02:16:14Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T02:19:30Z Nilby: I realized all kinds of auto messages on timers annoyed me.
2021-01-21T02:21:23Z Bike: i don't use semantic.
2021-01-21T02:23:58Z charles`: If I want to change directory, load file, then change back, why doesn't this work. It doesn't seem to change directory properly?
2021-01-21T02:24:18Z charles`: (let ((cwd (uiop:getcwd)))
2021-01-21T02:24:18Z charles`:     (uiop:chdir "new-dir")
2021-01-21T02:24:18Z charles`:     (load "file.lisp")
2021-01-21T02:24:18Z charles`:     (uiop:chdir cwd)))
2021-01-21T02:24:42Z Nilby: charles`: **default-pathname-defaults*
2021-01-21T02:25:11Z charles`: instead of uiop:chdir I change that variable?
2021-01-21T02:28:32Z Nilby: I'm sorry to say it's complicated and slightly implementation dependent. On some implementations you can just chdir, on some you have to set *default-pathname-defaults*, on some maybe both?
2021-01-21T02:29:28Z luckless_ quit (Quit: luckless_)
2021-01-21T02:31:17Z Nilby: If you want I can share a thing that does it on most implementations?
2021-01-21T02:31:36Z charles`: That would be cool. I have seen shcl though
2021-01-21T02:31:49Z charles`: I assume they figured it out
2021-01-21T02:34:39Z Nilby: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2249#2249
2021-01-21T02:35:07Z Nilby: You'll probably have to take out the (syscall ..) wrapper .
2021-01-21T02:36:11Z Nilby: I'd say this code is wrong, but it works.
2021-01-21T02:36:37Z Nilby: Also you can change safe-namestring to namestring
2021-01-21T02:36:45Z charles`: you seem very knowledgeable about different implementations
2021-01-21T02:38:12Z Nilby: I'm not. I don't even remember writing code.
2021-01-21T02:38:34Z Nilby: Or maybe I stole it?
2021-01-21T02:38:55Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-21T02:48:00Z Nilby: Oh, I forgot shcl is the other shell. I use the asdf path for loading, but I guess "cd" and load still works.
2021-01-21T02:50:22Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-21T02:53:35Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-21T02:59:26Z ludston quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T02:59:53Z ludston joined #lisp
2021-01-21T03:13:25Z npfaro: how do I set the value of a parameter/var without having the repl display the value
2021-01-21T03:13:37Z npfaro: I'm reading a multi-megabyte file into an array and I think slime is crashing every time it tries to print it
2021-01-21T03:13:54Z npfaro: I'm C-x C-e'ing (setf x (read-my-massive-array))
2021-01-21T03:14:29Z Bike: (progn (setf x (read-my-massive-array)) nil)
2021-01-21T03:14:34Z npfaro: that's just goofy
2021-01-21T03:14:37Z Bike: yes
2021-01-21T03:14:44Z Bike: sorry, do you mean for this to be like code in a file?
2021-01-21T03:14:51Z Bike: the progn thing is just what i do when i'm in the repl
2021-01-21T03:14:56Z Bike: and nobody can see this shame
2021-01-21T03:15:11Z npfaro: what do you do in a file then
2021-01-21T03:15:30Z Bike: i don't usually write that kind of procedural code in files, i suppose
2021-01-21T03:15:52Z npfaro: hrmmmm
2021-01-21T03:16:21Z Bike: let me see if slime has some kind of hook
2021-01-21T03:16:52Z Bike: doesn't look like it, i don't think
2021-01-21T03:18:36Z Bike: if you do M-- C-x C-e it will save it to the kill ring rather than print it
2021-01-21T03:18:43Z Bike: i don't know if that actually helps with huge output
2021-01-21T03:19:30Z Bike: well, seems like it works for me for a ten thousand element list, at least
2021-01-21T03:19:37Z npfaro: looks like there's a param called *print-vector-length*
2021-01-21T03:19:53Z Bike: oh, yeah, you can just set *print-length*
2021-01-21T03:19:59Z Bike: i do that in my sbclrc
2021-01-21T03:20:08Z Bike: that's a CL variable, not slime
2021-01-21T03:20:09Z edgar-rft: there's *PRINT-LENGTH* to limit the number of elements printed
2021-01-21T03:20:24Z npfaro: neato
2021-01-21T03:20:26Z npfaro: perfect, thanks
2021-01-21T03:21:14Z edgar-rft: oh, I just see that Bike won by a nose :-)
2021-01-21T03:23:26Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T03:24:39Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-21T03:29:26Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T03:29:46Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-21T03:30:02Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T03:30:12Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-21T03:30:27Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-21T03:32:02Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T03:32:20Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-21T03:33:53Z aspr joined #lisp
2021-01-21T03:36:07Z shinohai: ////////////
2021-01-21T03:37:28Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-21T03:38:33Z pillton: (setf *print-array* nil) ?
2021-01-21T03:40:34Z pillton has had to wait for the REPL to print out a high-definition image a few times.
2021-01-21T03:48:15Z npfaro: Can i ask a dumb loop question
2021-01-21T03:48:44Z Bike: sure.
2021-01-21T03:48:46Z npfaro: I have an array of values such that there are groups of 4. so I want to loop over them in groups
2021-01-21T03:49:11Z npfaro: Say I have #(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) I'd like to loop over them so that I can treat them as '((1 2 3 4) (5 6 7 8))
2021-01-21T03:49:11Z Bike: you mean like you have #(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ...) and you want to work with 0 1 2 3 first, then 4 5 6 7, etc?
2021-01-21T03:49:14Z npfaro: yeah
2021-01-21T03:49:15Z Bike: right.
2021-01-21T03:50:19Z Bike: you could do (loop for (a b c d) in (coerce vector 'list) ...), but that conses.
2021-01-21T03:50:27Z ludston: (loop for i = 0 then (+ 4 i) <someaggregate> (loop for j from i to (+ 3 j)) ?
2021-01-21T03:50:36Z Bike: i don't think there's a way to do it with the vector directly. you could cook up something with indices like that.
2021-01-21T03:50:50Z Bike: er, "on (coerce ...)" i meant
2021-01-21T03:51:00Z Bike: and then "by"... whatever, that code sucks anyway
2021-01-21T03:51:00Z npfaro: i can live with consing
2021-01-21T03:51:24Z Bike: (loop for (a b c d) on vector by #'cddddr ...) then
2021-01-21T03:51:54Z npfaro: I thought cdr doesn't work on vector
2021-01-21T03:52:02Z Bike: on (coerce vector 'list) i mean
2021-01-21T03:52:10Z Bike: i am scatterbrained to-nite
2021-01-21T03:52:54Z ludston: I'd just do it via the indices so that you don't get the O(n) copy
2021-01-21T03:53:11Z npfaro: hrm ok
2021-01-21T03:53:17Z Bike: i would also do it with the indices. if you want nicer syntax, you could probably design your own clause if you used ITERATE instead of loop
2021-01-21T03:53:22Z Bike: but i don't know much about that library
2021-01-21T03:53:29Z npfaro: I'm trying to stick to vanilla CL atm
2021-01-21T03:53:35Z Bike: fair enough
2021-01-21T03:53:36Z Bike: also, this wasn't a stupid question, so don't worry about that
2021-01-21T03:53:40Z Nilby: or something like  (loop with a = #(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) for i from 0 below (length a) by 4 do (format t "~s~%" (subseq a  i (+ i 4))))
2021-01-21T03:54:03Z npfaro: thanks
2021-01-21T03:54:14Z Bike: you can throw in like "for a = (aref vector i) for b = (aref vector (1+ i)) ..." etc
2021-01-21T03:55:03Z ludston: Again though, with subseq you are having O(n) copy
2021-01-21T03:56:04Z ludston: Avoiding memory allocation in GC'd languages I think is a good habit
2021-01-21T03:56:58Z ludston: Contraversial opinion though?
2021-01-21T03:57:28Z edgar-rft: I think displaced arrays are meant to be used for sub-arrays of big arrays but I need to fiddle out the syntax.
2021-01-21T03:59:18Z Bike: using displaced arrays usually involves consing, also.
2021-01-21T03:59:31Z Bike: and implementations may not optimize their use well
2021-01-21T04:00:36Z Nilby: sbcl seems to use about the same memory for displaced as subseq
2021-01-21T04:01:32Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:02:35Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:03:09Z Bike: for large sections the displaced array probably uses less memory than subseq and involves less copying time
2021-01-21T04:05:02Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T04:06:00Z Nilby: weirdly my test on sbcl runs faster for subseq on an array of 10000
2021-01-21T04:07:13Z Bike: you mean the array you're taking chunks out of is 10000 long?
2021-01-21T04:07:19Z Nilby: yes
2021-01-21T04:07:48Z Nilby: i suppose i should test bigger chunks
2021-01-21T04:07:49Z Bike: if the chunks are pretty short, i would guess that the copying overhead doesn't matter, and instead you hit slowness because you're using aref on a non simple array
2021-01-21T04:07:59Z ludston: What is a good word for destructuring a collection into chunks of n length? If it was pairs, you would say "zipping and unzipping"?
2021-01-21T04:08:15Z Bike: sbcl is probably smart enough to realize that if you're doing aref on subseq it's a simple aref
2021-01-21T04:08:17Z aeth: Almost everything has a start/end in CL, which helps a lot to avoid consing.
2021-01-21T04:08:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-21T04:08:44Z aeth: However, what I personally do in this situation is use the array macros/functions/etc. that I wrote. https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zr-utils/-/blob/adfe5751a2b327569efb55e0d1c89c7aea9c61f7/array.lisp
2021-01-21T04:09:09Z Nilby: about the same results for bigger chunks
2021-01-21T04:09:12Z aeth: I can decompose an array of length 4 into multiple values, to avoid additional consing (in most circumstances)
2021-01-21T04:09:29Z Nilby: Good morning beach!
2021-01-21T04:10:20Z aeth: So e.g. (zr-utils:array-of-4 (vector 1 2 3 4)) => 1 2 3 4
2021-01-21T04:11:14Z aeth: This can compose well with most things, but LOOP doesn't afaik have a way to bind multiple values at once (without a SETF in the body, of course) so it might not be the best kind of iteration for that.
2021-01-21T04:11:27Z Bike: it does not, no.
2021-01-21T04:12:19Z aeth: I just recently extended my function to support offsets, so it can solve this problem in particular, e.g. (zr-utils:array-of-4 (vector 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8) 4) => 5 6 7 8
2021-01-21T04:12:25Z aeth: Unfortunately, the API isn't stable yet and it's not in QL
2021-01-21T04:12:28Z Nilby: sbcl allows me to write atrociously slow code
2021-01-21T04:12:39Z Bike: as the gods intended.
2021-01-21T04:13:26Z Nilby: :)
2021-01-21T04:13:34Z Bike: a really fancy compiler could probably elide actually consing a displaced array for certain uses. i don't think any implementation actually bothers, though.
2021-01-21T04:14:46Z aeth: The problem is that "displaced arrays are slow" is common knowledge, so it's not idiomatic to use it, and non-idiomatic things aren't optimized because it's not worth the time.
2021-01-21T04:15:01Z aeth: If CL was as popular as JS, every corner would see optimizations, including that.
2021-01-21T04:16:22Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T04:16:43Z Bike: i dunno if displaced arrays are even a nicer way of expressing things, though
2021-01-21T04:17:00Z Bike: at least the kind of immediate cursor i'm imagining being optimizable could just be done pretty straightforwardly with indices
2021-01-21T04:17:43Z Bike: passing them between functions could be nicer, but then interfunctional optimization is harder
2021-01-21T04:18:51Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-21T04:18:57Z aeth: For 2-4 values, I love the compositional possibilities with the multiple-values route, although the syntax is pretty awkward. At the function boundary, you're basically forced to multiple-value-call. And it's not going to help you if you're calling a non-inline function that uses double-floats (or similarly boxed things).
2021-01-21T04:19:47Z aeth: Obviously if it's closer to, say, 20+ or especially 200+, then something like displaced arrays would be way better.
2021-01-21T04:20:01Z anewuser joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:20:01Z anewuser quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T04:20:40Z Nilby: If displaced arrays are optimized away inside a function, then they're probably fine as just a struct for passing indices around.
2021-01-21T04:20:41Z pillton: beach: I had a read of your call-site optimization paper. I like it. I think the information about the callers would be useful for editors or reflection. I also think you could perhaps mention if it is possible to compile the callee more than once to suit the type information provided by the caller.
2021-01-21T04:21:17Z Nilby: Why isn't there an nsubseq for arrays?
2021-01-21T04:21:34Z Bike: what would nsubseq do?
2021-01-21T04:21:50Z Nilby: I know it's not really the same concept. Just make a displaced array if it can.
2021-01-21T04:22:09Z pillton: beach: I wonder if the word "type" in the last sentence of the second paragraph of page 2 should be "class"?
2021-01-21T04:22:32Z aeth: Nilby: The problem is, most of the heavy optimizations are going to be inside of a function, or at least inside of a file, and the time when you'd really, really want to used displaced arrays is to treat a random subarray as an array when calling a general purpose function that expects the latter
2021-01-21T04:24:22Z Nilby: aeth: Right. But if your stuff is non-mutating maybe it's okay.
2021-01-21T04:24:27Z aeth: I suppose it could still help if those functions were inline, which could be a surprising amount of vector math stuff, especially if they were designed for this.
2021-01-21T04:27:25Z ZharX242 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:28:28Z Nilby: Yes. And then have it work with shareable vectors so the gpu or os can have it.
2021-01-21T04:28:58Z pillton: aeth: I'd rather compilers focus on eliminating indice checks for vector math stuff.
2021-01-21T04:29:48Z charles`: is there a way to read a file that has lisp code and get what the result is? if a file contains (+ 1 2), (return-load "file") => 3
2021-01-21T04:30:08Z emaczen joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:30:50Z beach: pillton: Thanks!
2021-01-21T04:30:57Z beach: I'll look into the "type" thing.
2021-01-21T04:31:39Z aeth: Nilby: https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors/
2021-01-21T04:31:57Z aeth: Nilby: Certain (1D) arrays can be bilingual CFFI/CL, which is all you need for the GPU
2021-01-21T04:32:02Z aeth: The downside is that you have to manually free them.
2021-01-21T04:32:36Z jedii quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T04:32:42Z beach: pillton: I don't think it would be necessary to compile the callee more than once.  It would typically have the structure so that a prefix would test the types, and part of that prefix can then be skipped so that the snippet jumps to the middle of the callee.
2021-01-21T04:34:19Z pillton: beach: For most cases yes, but there are unique cases where it is important e.g. https://github.com/markcox80/template-function/wiki/Motivating-the-Template-Function-System
2021-01-21T04:35:01Z mrcom_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-21T04:35:24Z beach: pillton: Yes, I'll change "type" to "class".
2021-01-21T04:37:03Z adam4567 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:37:04Z beach: pillton: I am not quite awake yet.  Can you give me an executive summary?
2021-01-21T04:37:11Z Nilby: aeth: Thanks. I should probably be using that.
2021-01-21T04:37:30Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-21T04:39:08Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:40:36Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:40:37Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-21T04:41:16Z pillton: beach: I can't at the moment as I have to go soon. I am in no hurry for you to read the link. I think it highlights the issue I am talking about better than I could explain it here.
2021-01-21T04:41:46Z beach: OK, I'll read it after I finished my coffee.  Thanks again!
2021-01-21T04:44:04Z pillton: beach: No problem. It reads well.
2021-01-21T04:45:05Z Nilby: charles`: maybe (eval (read-from-string (alexandria:read-file-into-string "foo.lisp")))
2021-01-21T04:46:11Z Nilby: charles`: or maybe (eval (uiop:read-file-form "foo.lisp"))
2021-01-21T04:50:56Z patience_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:51:03Z edgar-xyz joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:51:12Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T04:51:29Z pillton` joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:52:36Z pillton` quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T04:52:38Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T04:52:38Z jprajzne quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T04:53:03Z pillton` joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:53:03Z pillton` quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T04:53:09Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T04:53:13Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:53:20Z ludston quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T04:53:20Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T04:53:20Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T04:53:20Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T04:53:23Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-21T04:53:31Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:54:51Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:55:30Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:56:24Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-21T04:58:45Z eden joined #lisp
2021-01-21T04:58:48Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-21T05:04:54Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-21T05:05:05Z beach: pillton: I am not in favor of recompiling the callee according to the information provided by the current callers, but I can very well see compiling several versions of the callee according to the type information that ANY caller could provide to make the callee faster.
2021-01-21T05:05:34Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T05:07:17Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-21T05:09:02Z ebrasca` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T05:10:32Z yangby joined #lisp
2021-01-21T05:10:42Z yangby quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T05:10:52Z pillton: beach: Sure. That system I linked to provides a mechanism for users to request a specific specialization of an operator. I found this to be easier than trying to implement systems which handle all of the subtypes of REAL and the corresponding array subtypes for every CL implementation.
2021-01-21T05:11:17Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-21T05:11:43Z beach: Yes, I see.
2021-01-21T05:22:43Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T05:25:09Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-21T05:25:25Z npfaro quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-21T05:28:43Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-21T05:29:23Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T05:29:59Z parjanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T05:31:01Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-21T05:36:02Z npfaro joined #lisp
2021-01-21T05:36:06Z charles`: Nilby: doesn't work because eval uses some other environment. I tried putting *package* and *readtable* inside, but doesn't work still
2021-01-21T05:38:24Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T05:39:45Z patience_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T05:42:18Z Nilby: Hmmm. Maybe you could wrap it with (let ((*package* (find-package :whatever)) (*readtable* (copy-readtable))) (eval (uiop:read-file-form "foo")))
2021-01-21T05:43:07Z Nilby: It seems like it's only a good technique for simple things.
2021-01-21T05:43:20Z charles`: I am trying (eval
2021-01-21T05:43:20Z charles`:                  `(let ((theme ,theme)
2021-01-21T05:43:21Z charles`:                         (*readtable* ,*readtable*)
2021-01-21T05:43:21Z charles`:                         (*package* ,*package*))
2021-01-21T05:43:21Z charles`:                     ,(read-from-string
2021-01-21T05:43:21Z charles`:                       (uiop:read-file-string body-file))))
2021-01-21T05:44:12Z beach: charles`: Please use a paste site for code with more than one line.
2021-01-21T05:44:26Z charles`: okay
2021-01-21T05:44:28Z beach: Like plaster.tymoon.eu for instance.
2021-01-21T05:45:17Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-21T05:47:43Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-21T05:57:11Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-21T05:57:16Z npfaro: Is there any way to advance a loop in the body of it
2021-01-21T05:57:49Z npfaro: Say I have a loop like (loop for (a b) on '(1 2 3 4)) and if a+b > 10 then move past both and onto the next pair
2021-01-21T05:57:52Z npfaro: otherwise continue as normal
2021-01-21T05:57:59Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie)
2021-01-21T05:59:06Z phoe6245 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.github.io)
2021-01-21T06:00:28Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:00:50Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:03:22Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T06:07:01Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:12:39Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-21T06:12:51Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:14:09Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:16:39Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-21T06:17:11Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:21:28Z beach: npfaro: I think you would have to use FOR THEN for that.
2021-01-21T06:21:51Z npfaro: i ended up just writing a recursive function
2021-01-21T06:26:14Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:28:41Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-21T06:29:58Z karlosz_ quit (Quit: karlosz_)
2021-01-21T06:35:50Z npfaro: Any way to make it in SBCL so that when you type a string at the repl it doesn't respond with #<(SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (9)) foo... {1004DCC80F}>
2021-01-21T06:37:06Z beach: If you type a string literal, it should print that same literal, because string literals are self-evaluating objects, and they are printed as usual.
2021-01-21T06:37:18Z npfaro:  
2021-01-21T06:37:19Z npfaro: "wello"
2021-01-21T06:37:19Z npfaro: #<(SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (5)) wel... {1004E44C3F}>
2021-01-21T06:38:03Z beach: You must have somehow clobbered print-object, or you have some printer variable set wrong.
2021-01-21T06:38:05Z npfaro: I fixed it, had to set *print-vector-length* back to nil
2021-01-21T06:38:22Z npfaro: my bad!
2021-01-21T06:39:01Z npfaro: while you're here, do you know how to convert a vector to a (VECTOR (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8)) easily
2021-01-21T06:39:13Z npfaro: I'm trying to use sb-ext:octets-to-string but it ain't workin'
2021-01-21T06:39:47Z npfaro: (sb-ext:octets-to-string #(72 101 108 108 111) :external-format :utf-8) says
2021-01-21T06:39:48Z npfaro: The value
2021-01-21T06:39:48Z npfaro:   #(72 101 108 108 111)
2021-01-21T06:39:48Z npfaro: is not of type
2021-01-21T06:39:52Z npfaro:   (VECTOR (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8))
2021-01-21T06:39:55Z npfaro: when binding VECTOR
2021-01-21T06:39:55Z npfaro:    [Condition of type TYPE-ERROR]
2021-01-21T06:40:41Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:40:46Z beach: Yes, when you use #(...) it creates a simple vector as I recall.
2021-01-21T06:41:04Z beach: It is not the contents that determine the type of an array.  It's how it was created.
2021-01-21T06:41:49Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:41:52Z beach: Try something like (make-array 5 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-contents '(72 101 ...))
2021-01-21T06:43:51Z ebrasca: Good morning!
2021-01-21T06:44:01Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
2021-01-21T06:44:43Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:50:43Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:50:48Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T06:51:09Z npfaro: @beach thanks, that worked :)
2021-01-21T06:52:16Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-21T06:53:16Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T06:54:46Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-21T06:54:48Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:56:32Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-21T06:59:34Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T07:00:31Z khisanth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:02:14Z aeth: npfaro: COERCE also works, but you generally want to use MAKE-ARRAY because the :initial-contents part can be optimized when it's a quoted list like that...
2021-01-21T07:02:20Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-21T07:02:28Z aeth: i.e. (coerce #(1 2 3 4) '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*))) where * is the size wildcard so you don't have to specify it (you could say (4) instead of (*))
2021-01-21T07:04:22Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-21T07:05:02Z npfaro: thanks!
2021-01-21T07:05:37Z aeth: In other words, use MAKE-ARRAY with a literal list as the initial-contents if you're making the array in the first place. Otherwise, if you already have a sequence and just need to convert it to another, COERCE.
2021-01-21T07:05:39Z npfaro: I'm htting it for the night, thank you all for the help :)
2021-01-21T07:05:47Z aeth: good night
2021-01-21T07:05:52Z npfaro quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-21T07:06:24Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:07:05Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T07:07:34Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:08:03Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:09:37Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-21T07:11:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T07:13:42Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:19:07Z _paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:19:40Z Oddity joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:20:26Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:21:46Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T07:22:36Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T07:22:36Z Oddity- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T07:23:43Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:26:00Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:27:38Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T07:27:44Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:28:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:30:32Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:32:24Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-21T07:33:59Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:34:50Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T07:35:17Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T07:37:06Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:41:50Z villanella quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T07:45:42Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:50:47Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:55:12Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:56:03Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T07:56:39Z gigetoo joined #lisp
2021-01-21T07:59:57Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-21T08:03:10Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T08:06:56Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T08:10:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T08:11:32Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T08:13:34Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-21T08:20:28Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T08:21:18Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T08:22:19Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-21T08:24:27Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-21T08:25:35Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-21T08:28:30Z rgherdt quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T08:28:48Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-21T08:35:55Z logand joined #lisp
2021-01-21T08:43:58Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T08:48:09Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-21T08:52:45Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T09:00:09Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:01:35Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:06:41Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:08:42Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-21T09:10:45Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:11:10Z adam4567 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T09:12:38Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T09:15:34Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:16:56Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T09:21:36Z F________ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:21:52Z F________ is now known as Feldman
2021-01-21T09:22:19Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-21T09:24:23Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T09:24:36Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:25:31Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:28:01Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:28:10Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T09:31:04Z rwcom60280385034 is now known as nivet
2021-01-21T09:33:01Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:35:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:36:16Z mood_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:36:24Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:36:52Z mood quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T09:36:52Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T09:37:14Z ZharX242 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T09:37:15Z F________ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:37:16Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:37:27Z ZharX242 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:37:37Z F________ is now known as Feldman0
2021-01-21T09:37:48Z Feldman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T09:38:03Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:39:10Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-21T09:40:28Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T09:45:17Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T09:47:24Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:54:10Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T09:55:02Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:56:06Z nivet quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-21T09:56:33Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T09:57:44Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-21T09:58:31Z rwcom60280385034 is now known as nivet
2021-01-21T09:58:35Z nivet quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T09:59:24Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T10:00:15Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-21T10:08:38Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-21T10:12:23Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-21T10:14:51Z Feldman0: Jackdaniel, are you online?
2021-01-21T10:23:59Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-21T10:26:44Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-21T10:36:38Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-21T10:36:42Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-21T10:37:25Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T10:39:30Z albusp quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-21T10:39:37Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-21T10:39:42Z jackdaniel: Feldman0: i'll be in 15m
2021-01-21T10:39:43Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-21T10:40:08Z ZharX242 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T10:40:47Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-21T10:40:57Z albusp joined #lisp
2021-01-21T10:48:21Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T10:49:34Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T10:51:18Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-21T10:53:12Z jackdaniel: Feldman0: what's up?
2021-01-21T10:53:57Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-21T10:54:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T10:55:09Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-21T10:56:20Z beach: I think Feldman0 wants to implement my generic-function dispatch technique for ECL, maybe.
2021-01-21T10:56:36Z jackdaniel: sounds good
2021-01-21T10:58:21Z Feldman0: yeah that's it
2021-01-21T10:59:51Z jackdaniel: currently ecl has gf dispatch mechanism operates on caches (see the file src/c/clos/gfun.d), however before the last release I've implemented class stamps
2021-01-21T11:00:01Z jackdaniel: that are a necessary prerequisite for that technique
2021-01-21T11:03:10Z jackdaniel: there are internal helper functions si::instance-obsolete-p and si::instance-sig-set to work with instances (used in clos/std-slot-value.lsp) defined in src/c/clos/instance.d
2021-01-21T11:04:01Z jackdaniel: there are a few problems: a single gf dispatch mechanism does not require additional compilation at runtime, while fast gf dispatch  requires you to compile the dispatch function after gathering some information
2021-01-21T11:04:30Z Feldman0: Do you think that I'll have to implement it in C or in Lisp, I'm not quite sure in what what is done in ECL
2021-01-21T11:04:32Z jackdaniel: this function also may get invalidated for various reasons;
2021-01-21T11:04:58Z jackdaniel: I'm sure that it could be implemented in lisp and compiled with the compiler to c
2021-01-21T11:05:46Z Feldman0: My main struggle with reading the code base is, I'm not sure why something are in C or Lisp, is there a rule of thumb that is used or?
2021-01-21T11:05:47Z jackdaniel: so, regarding the problem -- compilation on ecl is slow, so either gf should be compiled in a separate thread, or manually triggered by i.e #'compile
2021-01-21T11:06:31Z jackdaniel: the common language runtime is implemented in c; while the rest is implemented in common lisp
2021-01-21T11:07:02Z jackdaniel: basically some low level operators needed to boostrap the language must be written  in (or transpiled to) C (unless you decide to boostrap from another common lisp implementation)
2021-01-21T11:07:45Z jackdaniel: ecl also features a bytecodes compiler/interpreter (alongside native code compiler), and bytecmp is written in C
2021-01-21T11:08:16Z Feldman0: Ah right so it's like the clos-boot approach in SBCL, so my solution could be like the more fully featured clos written in CL
2021-01-21T11:08:36Z jackdaniel: you may think of the C part of the codebase as of a VM on top of which you could implement other languages (i.e common lisp)
2021-01-21T11:09:40Z jackdaniel: sure, you could think of it like that; notice that current gf dispatch machinery is written in C
2021-01-21T11:10:17Z jackdaniel: (and clos/ "just" uses it)
2021-01-21T11:10:43Z jackdaniel: afaik sbcl and ecl clos implementations are both based on the pcl implementation
2021-01-21T11:10:55Z jackdaniel: however they of course diverged with time
2021-01-21T11:11:42Z jackdaniel: if you have some detailed questions about ecl internals, you may join #ecl channel to not clutter the general chat with it
2021-01-21T11:11:57Z jackdaniel: (probably I should redirect you there from the beginning :)
2021-01-21T11:13:13Z Feldman0: I think this is probably fine for now; I just need to write up a draft project proposal and submit it to potential supervisior. It's a bit early for that even, but there's really only one good supervisor for this project so I'm trying to get him early.
2021-01-21T11:13:46Z jackdaniel: OK, good luck
2021-01-21T11:19:11Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-21T11:21:58Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-21T11:30:35Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T11:30:45Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-21T11:32:11Z zerno quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T11:32:45Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T11:33:09Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-21T11:33:40Z Stanley00 quit
2021-01-21T11:37:16Z rwcom60280385034 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T11:39:24Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-21T11:40:44Z zerno quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T11:45:27Z awkravchuk joined #lisp
2021-01-21T11:52:41Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-21T11:54:06Z zerno quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T11:57:29Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T11:59:47Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-21T12:02:20Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-21T12:05:13Z VincentVega: Trying to pick a testing framework. Currently looking at prove. The lisp cookbook says "warning: Prove has a couple limitations and will soon be obsolete. We advise to start with another test framework." What limitations? Are there other frameworks that are better in some way?
2021-01-21T12:05:17Z VincentVega: I guess what I would want from a testing framework is that it just doesn't get in the way, so to speak. I want to have testing code at the top-level (right next the code that I need to test, I don't want to create a seperate file), but I don't want it to run during the compilation, but only be tracked by the framework, so that I can run it all
2021-01-21T12:05:17Z VincentVega: later if I want to. Eval'ing a form should run it though. Do any of the frameworks support this?
2021-01-21T12:06:15Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-21T12:07:27Z phoe: I guess you can do that
2021-01-21T12:07:33Z phoe: parachute's define-test should support that
2021-01-21T12:09:07Z VincentVega: OK, I will take a look.
2021-01-21T12:09:51Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T12:09:52Z loke[m]: Fiveam will also be do it
2021-01-21T12:11:05Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T12:11:38Z VincentVega: Sounds good : )
2021-01-21T12:18:43Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-21T12:18:52Z jackdaniel: but if you want to be "the real common lisp programmer", you should write your own testing framework - it is a long lasting tradition among devs ,-)
2021-01-21T12:19:09Z phoe: ;__;
2021-01-21T12:22:07Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: the one which would be better than all of them, right? tempting...
2021-01-21T12:22:18Z phoe: minion: tell phoe about standards
2021-01-21T12:22:23Z minion: standards: https://www.cliki.net/standards
2021-01-21T12:22:59Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T12:23:13Z phoe: there is an important image missing from there...
2021-01-21T12:23:16Z VincentVega: I have seen the xkcd comic, it's on point
2021-01-21T12:23:19Z VincentVega: : )
2021-01-21T12:23:42Z jackdaniel: drat, and here I was hoping for 9am
2021-01-21T12:24:06Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: you never know
2021-01-21T12:24:45Z phoe: okay, cliki fixed
2021-01-21T12:24:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T12:25:04Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T12:25:36Z VincentVega: yeah, now we are talking
2021-01-21T12:25:39Z jackdaniel doesn't like the clutter this change introduces
2021-01-21T12:27:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T12:28:07Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T12:30:34Z trocado quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T12:34:59Z phoe: sure, I can revert it
2021-01-21T12:35:01Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-21T12:40:38Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-21T12:41:25Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-21T12:45:13Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-21T12:46:21Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T12:46:33Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-21T12:48:38Z Feldman0 quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-01-21T13:04:05Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T13:06:31Z zerno_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T13:06:37Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T13:06:37Z zerno quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T13:06:37Z rwcom60280385034 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T13:06:37Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-21T13:07:07Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T13:10:15Z zerno_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T13:22:16Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T13:30:09Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-21T13:32:12Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T13:37:18Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T13:40:38Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T13:43:40Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-21T13:47:47Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T13:53:59Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-21T13:55:09Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-21T13:59:24Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:00:27Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T14:01:42Z paulj quit (Quit: Asta la vista)
2021-01-21T14:02:51Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:06:21Z zmv joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:06:26Z paulj quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T14:07:11Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:09:37Z paulj quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T14:11:02Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:13:24Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T14:13:28Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:13:59Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:15:48Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-21T14:19:49Z tumdum quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T14:22:15Z paulj quit (Quit: Asta la vista)
2021-01-21T14:22:22Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:22:36Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:22:42Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T14:25:56Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-21T14:26:10Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-21T14:26:37Z xantoz joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:27:24Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:30:09Z caret quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T14:30:27Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:31:19Z heredoc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-21T14:35:45Z xantoz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T14:36:26Z xantoz joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:36:40Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:38:48Z trocado joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:41:33Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T14:42:26Z Vultyre_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:43:06Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:43:31Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:45:03Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-21T14:45:09Z kaun_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:46:14Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:48:24Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T14:49:15Z bjorkintosh quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T14:49:28Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:54:50Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T14:55:37Z awkravchuk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T14:56:39Z jmercouris: why does string-equal exist when you can just use equal?
2021-01-21T14:57:09Z jmercouris: will it be faster?
2021-01-21T14:57:22Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:57:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T14:59:00Z jackdaniel: hint: it has a different lambda list
2021-01-21T14:59:13Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-21T14:59:40Z sm2n_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T14:59:58Z jmercouris: jackhill: so what, you could also slice the lists and use equal
2021-01-21T15:00:01Z heredoc joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:00:08Z jmercouris: it's literally the same thing
2021-01-21T15:00:12Z tumdum joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:00:19Z jackdaniel: aha
2021-01-21T15:00:21Z Bike: if you slice the lists with subseq that will cons up a new substring.
2021-01-21T15:00:29Z sm2n_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:00:33Z Bike: string-equal can just iterate over the indices instead.
2021-01-21T15:00:38Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:00:50Z Bike: sorry, if you slice the strings with subseq*
2021-01-21T15:01:01Z jmercouris: I see
2021-01-21T15:01:08Z jmercouris: ok, so there is a performance benefit
2021-01-21T15:01:15Z jmercouris: IF we are dealing with slicing
2021-01-21T15:01:17Z Bike: and string-equal can also use more direct comparisons, as you implied
2021-01-21T15:01:17Z jmercouris: fair enoug
2021-01-21T15:01:27Z jmercouris: s/enoug/enough
2021-01-21T15:01:31Z Bike: it can just do character comparisons instead of dispatching on types
2021-01-21T15:01:57Z jmercouris: hm I see
2021-01-21T15:02:13Z jackdaniel: Bike: equal could do that too (under the hood, after realizing that both are strings)
2021-01-21T15:02:21Z jmercouris: thank you
2021-01-21T15:02:21Z Bike: yeah you're right
2021-01-21T15:02:39Z jmercouris: I assume only the behavior of equal is defined, not the implementation details
2021-01-21T15:02:54Z jmercouris: but I think you would be writing something really complex if equal had to realize you were slicing
2021-01-21T15:03:42Z jmercouris: I guess there are more than two ways to slice a melon
2021-01-21T15:04:05Z jackdaniel: that's not what I've been saying
2021-01-21T15:04:17Z jmercouris: I know what you were saying
2021-01-21T15:04:21Z jmercouris: I was adding a tangential thought
2021-01-21T15:04:26Z jmercouris: also you are a goldfish
2021-01-21T15:04:34Z jackdaniel: you speak nonsense
2021-01-21T15:04:34Z jmercouris: that is a good thing, they are my favorite type of fish
2021-01-21T15:04:42Z jmercouris: I'm in a bit of a silly mood, yes
2021-01-21T15:05:35Z Bike: a sufficiently smart compiler TM maybe could elide the subseq calls sometimes
2021-01-21T15:05:41Z Bike: i don't know if any actual lisp does
2021-01-21T15:06:50Z Bike: i don't think sbcl does, though it does convert equal to string= when it can
2021-01-21T15:07:17Z jmercouris: at any rate, string= does adhere to the specificity style
2021-01-21T15:07:23Z jmercouris: the reader can see, aha! we are comparing strings
2021-01-21T15:07:31Z jmercouris: it gives some type information
2021-01-21T15:07:53Z phoe: the reader? you mean a human reader or the lisp reader?
2021-01-21T15:08:36Z phoe: or the compiler that recognizes that the values being compared are both strings?
2021-01-21T15:08:40Z jmercouris: human reader
2021-01-21T15:08:45Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:09:07Z jmercouris: we should use the abbreviation hreader for human reader
2021-01-21T15:09:37Z beach: Use your abbrev processor.
2021-01-21T15:10:20Z beach: And yes, string= is more specific, so it falls under the rule that one should always use the more specific construct that will have the desired effect.
2021-01-21T15:10:50Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:10:52Z beach: That rule does not apply to the creators of a language standard, though.
2021-01-21T15:11:05Z jmercouris: it applies to why we might use it
2021-01-21T15:11:10Z jmercouris: that's really my question
2021-01-21T15:11:15Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-21T15:11:22Z pfdietz: One could imagine a sufficiently smart compiler that would transform (equal (subseq s ...) (subseq s2 ...)) into a call to string=, but I don't think any existing compilers do that.
2021-01-21T15:11:32Z beach: But Common Lisp is not about minimalism.  It's about giving the programmer a good toolbox.
2021-01-21T15:11:40Z jmercouris: pfdietz: that's what I was hinting at with my comment that jackdaniel did not understand
2021-01-21T15:12:56Z pfdietz: (Note to self: add rtp tests for equal + subseq)
2021-01-21T15:15:24Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T15:16:59Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:17:39Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:19:29Z ey[m]2 quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:30Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:30Z jonas[m]2 quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:31Z ey[m]1 quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:31Z ey[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:32Z ThaEwat quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:32Z quanta[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:32Z katco quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:34Z jdormit[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:34Z christopheroei[m quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:34Z solideogloria[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:34Z keizerrijk[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:35Z etimmons quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:36Z stargazesparkle quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:37Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:37Z ms[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:37Z santiagopim[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:37Z ecm quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:37Z even4void[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:19:37Z backinaweek[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:32Z arichiardi[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:33Z dmiles[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:33Z cairn quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z posthuman_egrego quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z infra_red[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z Lolicon[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z deselby quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z kaisyu[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z loke[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z susam quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z anotherone9999[m quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z malaclyps_ quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z dieggsy quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z chipk[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z Codaraxis__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:21:34Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:22:22Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T15:22:54Z nckx joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:23:00Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-21T15:23:16Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:30:48Z cairn joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:34:15Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T15:35:17Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: I've merely corrected you from implying I've said something that I did not. "sufficiently smart compilers" was a fad years before I've started working with common lisp
2021-01-21T15:35:26Z jackdaniel: s/was/were/
2021-01-21T15:37:02Z neirac joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:40:05Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T15:42:11Z kaun_ quit (Quit: bas)
2021-01-21T15:50:39Z lalitmee joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:52:44Z lalitmee quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T15:53:04Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:04Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:04Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:04Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:04Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:04Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:04Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:05Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:05Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:05Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:05Z skye0[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:05Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:05Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:06Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:06Z malaclyps_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:06Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:06Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:06Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:06Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:06Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:06Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:06Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:06Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:11Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:11Z 32NAAL4OF joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:11Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:11Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:11Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:11Z 7ITAAI1SC joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:12Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:12Z keizerrijk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:12Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:53:13Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:54:52Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:55:35Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:56:55Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-21T15:57:29Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T15:58:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-21T16:00:44Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:01:13Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:03:22Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:03:31Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-21T16:03:57Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-21T16:06:56Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T16:07:47Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T16:08:05Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-21T16:15:37Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:17:34Z zerno_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-21T16:18:19Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:20:02Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T16:21:11Z zerno_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T16:23:28Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:25:16Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:25:53Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T16:27:37Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-21T16:28:45Z vaporatorius joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:28:58Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:29:01Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T16:29:15Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:29:42Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T16:30:01Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:30:09Z Codaraxis__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T16:31:26Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:32:16Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:36:47Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:41:03Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I merely corrected you from implying that I implied that you said something which you didn’t
2021-01-21T16:41:25Z Bike: can you please stop being so catty with each other every single time
2021-01-21T16:41:34Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T16:42:18Z Josh_2: Ello
2021-01-21T16:50:50Z gproto23 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:51:11Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:51:45Z gproto23 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T16:51:55Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-21T16:52:20Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T16:53:16Z zmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T16:53:39Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:54:05Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T16:56:29Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-21T16:56:48Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T16:56:53Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-21T16:57:18Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-21T17:01:47Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-21T17:03:17Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-21T17:03:18Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T17:04:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T17:06:40Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T17:07:36Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-21T17:07:58Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-21T17:08:12Z jmercouris: Bike: :-D
2021-01-21T17:08:18Z jmercouris: Will try
2021-01-21T17:09:08Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-21T17:09:23Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-21T17:11:33Z logand joined #lisp
2021-01-21T17:13:00Z dbotton: Is there documentation / some sort of tutorial on the best way today to handle foreign C code. Seems there are a few paths when last looked.
2021-01-21T17:13:36Z jackdaniel: dbotton: do you mean ffi calls or something else?
2021-01-21T17:13:41Z dbotton: Yes
2021-01-21T17:13:59Z jackdaniel: cffi is a usual goto answer (it also superseded uffi and provides compatibility layer with it)
2021-01-21T17:14:42Z dbotton: Is their a tutorial on how to use you maybe recommend?
2021-01-21T17:14:44Z jackdaniel: there is also cffi-groveller to generate bindings automatically (cl-autowrap seems to have a similar purpose) - I've never used grovellers though
2021-01-21T17:15:06Z jackdaniel: cffi has a documentation; when unsure I usually look at tests in the source code
2021-01-21T17:15:41Z dbotton: Ok and I assume works in scbl and ecl
2021-01-21T17:15:54Z jackdaniel: yes
2021-01-21T17:16:08Z dbotton: Thank you
2021-01-21T17:16:36Z Nilby: The cffi manual is quite good and has a tutorial.
2021-01-21T17:16:54Z jackdaniel: on ecl there is a special flag to make things faster (by writing inlined calls) it is disabled by default because there is no good translation between pointer types between ecl and cffi (something possible to fix with extra effort)
2021-01-21T17:17:29Z jackdaniel: basically it boils down to the fact, that modern C compilers won't accept a declaration void*(*)() to a function int*(*)()
2021-01-21T17:18:06Z jackdaniel: (mismatch between pointer return value declarations is not allowed)
2021-01-21T17:18:22Z dbotton: Would be good to use but don't want for this project anything that is implementation specific
2021-01-21T17:18:52Z jackdaniel: it is just a flag in cffi
2021-01-21T17:19:08Z dbotton: Ok
2021-01-21T17:19:16Z jackdaniel: #+ecl (setf cffi::*that-flag-I-don-t-rememmber-name-of* :static) or something in this spirit
2021-01-21T17:19:19Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-21T17:19:24Z jackdaniel: (look up the code)
2021-01-21T17:19:35Z dbotton: I thought meant could do inline c
2021-01-21T17:19:49Z dbotton: In middle of lisp code
2021-01-21T17:20:07Z jackdaniel: no, it is a flag that decides how foreign calls are resolved
2021-01-21T17:20:26Z jackdaniel: ecl can do it three ways: dynamic ffi, dlopen ffi and static ffi - cffi implements all three
2021-01-21T17:20:46Z jackdaniel: the last one is not enabled by default because of the reason I've mentioned
2021-01-21T17:20:46Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-21T17:20:55Z liberliver quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T17:21:26Z jackdaniel: (however it is the fastest)
2021-01-21T17:22:35Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-21T17:23:20Z jackdaniel: dbotton: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/src/cffi-ecl.lisp#L66
2021-01-21T17:26:20Z dbotton: thanks
2021-01-21T17:26:25Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-01-21T17:38:03Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T17:55:26Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T17:56:52Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-21T18:09:05Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-21T18:16:33Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-21T18:19:45Z Bahman joined #lisp
2021-01-21T18:23:53Z secretmyth joined #lisp
2021-01-21T18:27:09Z Bahman quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-21T18:30:21Z McParen joined #lisp
2021-01-21T18:32:00Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-21T18:33:07Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-21T18:34:21Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-21T18:34:42Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T18:35:07Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T18:39:08Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-21T18:46:09Z london joined #lisp
2021-01-21T18:46:24Z flatheap quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-21T18:48:40Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T18:52:34Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-21T18:55:43Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-21T18:55:51Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T18:57:04Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:03:43Z tumdum quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T19:04:04Z london quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-21T19:11:15Z tumdum joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:11:15Z tumdum quit (Changing host)
2021-01-21T19:11:15Z tumdum joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:11:25Z zerno_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-21T19:12:38Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:12:43Z tassleoff_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:13:52Z tumdum quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-21T19:13:59Z tumdum joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:13:59Z tumdum quit (Changing host)
2021-01-21T19:13:59Z tumdum joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:14:54Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:15:02Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T19:15:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T19:16:38Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:17:52Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:17:54Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T19:18:24Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:20:05Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:21:29Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T19:22:26Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-21T19:23:20Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:24:38Z Sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T19:25:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T19:26:22Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:27:52Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-21T19:27:59Z ark quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-21T19:27:59Z shenghi1 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-21T19:27:59Z billstclair quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-21T19:27:59Z parisienne quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-21T19:27:59Z p_l quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-21T19:27:59Z jsatk quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-21T19:28:09Z ark joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:28:11Z parisienne joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:28:17Z jsatk joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:28:17Z p_l joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:28:29Z shenghi1 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:28:50Z billstclair joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:32:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T19:33:13Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:35:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-21T19:35:21Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:36:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:37:59Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T19:39:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T19:40:49Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-21T19:42:50Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T19:45:06Z tgbugs joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:47:07Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-21T19:48:09Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-21T19:52:44Z aorst is now known as andreyorst[m]
2021-01-21T19:54:21Z McParen left #lisp
2021-01-21T19:54:31Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-21T19:56:34Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T19:57:48Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T20:01:27Z npfaro joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:02:52Z npfaro: If I have an array with a fill pointer at a certain spot (with more room past the fill pointer) how do I copy another array into where the fill pointer is, advancing the fill pointer
2021-01-21T20:05:09Z Bike: i would manually increment the fill pointer and then use replace to do the copy, i think.
2021-01-21T20:05:31Z etothpiiminus1 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:05:36Z npfaro: oh, hmm ok
2021-01-21T20:05:53Z Bike: (let ((old-fp (fill-pointer dest))) (incf (fill-pointer dest) (length source)) (replace dest source :start1 old-fp))
2021-01-21T20:06:15Z Bike: or of course you could vector-push repeatedly
2021-01-21T20:06:20Z Bike: i don't think there's a built in operator for this
2021-01-21T20:06:24Z npfaro: aight, thanks
2021-01-21T20:06:38Z aspr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:11:07Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-21T20:11:33Z npfaro` joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:12:09Z anticrisis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:14:22Z devon quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:14:22Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:14:45Z npfaro quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:14:45Z andreyorst[m] quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:14:47Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:14:57Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-21T20:15:19Z etothpiiminus1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:15:19Z anticrisis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:15:19Z albusp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:15:19Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:15:19Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:15:21Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:15:37Z albusp joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:15:42Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:16:07Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:16:41Z andreyorst[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:16:45Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:19:07Z frgo_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:22:23Z etothpiiminus1 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:27:47Z etothpiiminus1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:29:40Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:33:59Z etothpiiminus1 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:40:43Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:43:40Z etothpiiminus1 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T20:45:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T20:45:37Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:48:36Z zerno_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-21T20:49:30Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T20:49:35Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T20:50:03Z pfdietz: I came across this problem recently, and did it manually.
2021-01-21T20:50:52Z pfdietz: I had to manually adjust the array; just increasing the fill-pointer doesn't extend the array.
2021-01-21T20:51:57Z npfaro`: pfdietz: if you were replying to me (i disconnected for a bit sorry) then I already allocated the array to be big enough from the start
2021-01-21T20:52:12Z pfdietz: Understood.  I had not.
2021-01-21T20:56:14Z VincentVega: kind of silly i haven't figured this one out yet, but in sly/slime how do you go to the line/function where an error occurs (when loading a project)? Looking at the backtrace every time is proving to be a bit of a hassle.
2021-01-21T20:56:33Z Xach: VincentVega: "v" on a frame is what i use
2021-01-21T20:57:15Z VincentVega: Xach: Oh good. It works. Thanks.
2021-01-21T20:58:59Z VincentVega: hmmm is there some trick to a frame that appears in the current project?
2021-01-21T20:59:30Z Xach: what do you mean by project? (and "trick"?)
2021-01-21T20:59:40Z VincentVega: package
2021-01-21T20:59:51Z VincentVega: trick to go to a frame
2021-01-21T20:59:55Z VincentVega: sry
2021-01-21T21:00:14Z Xach: Oh, like, to skip irrelevant-to-you frames and get to something that might be more meaningful?
2021-01-21T21:00:19Z VincentVega: yeah
2021-01-21T21:00:28Z Xach: I don't know of anything like that, but there are many things I don't know
2021-01-21T21:00:52Z VincentVega: that's cool : )
2021-01-21T21:02:18Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-21T21:03:03Z npfaro`: How do you folks define a variable in the repl for temporary use?
2021-01-21T21:03:12Z npfaro`: defparameter/defvar or just setf'ing some nonexistant thing?
2021-01-21T21:03:14Z npfaro`: or somehow else?
2021-01-21T21:03:21Z Xach: npfaro`: i usually use (defparameter *myvar* ...)
2021-01-21T21:03:32Z Xach: I use sbcl which complains a lot if you use setf/setq.
2021-01-21T21:03:42Z npfaro`: even just for some throwaway var?
2021-01-21T21:03:53Z Xach: yes.
2021-01-21T21:03:56Z npfaro`: alright, thanks
2021-01-21T21:04:18Z Xach: if it's really throwaway i try to work with */**/***, and i'm learning sly's #vN history syntax too.
2021-01-21T21:06:53Z madand left #lisp
2021-01-21T21:07:20Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-21T21:07:47Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-21T21:11:01Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T21:12:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T21:14:26Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-21T21:18:12Z caret quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T21:20:49Z zerno_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-21T21:29:32Z trocado quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-21T21:29:38Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T21:30:14Z secretmyth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T21:31:17Z wsinatra_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-21T21:32:09Z zmv joined #lisp
2021-01-21T21:32:09Z zmv quit (Changing host)
2021-01-21T21:32:09Z zmv joined #lisp
2021-01-21T21:39:02Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-21T21:40:53Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T21:43:30Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-21T21:43:48Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T21:50:17Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-21T21:50:50Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-21T21:58:56Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-21T22:00:36Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T22:01:35Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-21T22:01:55Z zmv is now known as livoreno
2021-01-21T22:06:00Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-21T22:11:41Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T22:16:39Z zerno_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-21T22:16:55Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T22:17:33Z Vultyre_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-21T22:21:21Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-21T22:23:01Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-21T22:42:52Z emaczen joined #lisp
2021-01-21T22:43:07Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-21T22:47:45Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T22:51:28Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T22:53:26Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-21T22:54:50Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T22:56:44Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T22:58:00Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-21T23:05:58Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-21T23:07:12Z [d] quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-21T23:07:18Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T23:07:36Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-21T23:14:17Z bendersteed joined #lisp
2021-01-21T23:16:15Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T23:24:58Z tmalsburg[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-21T23:26:12Z DarthVoyage joined #lisp
2021-01-21T23:26:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T23:27:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-21T23:27:35Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-21T23:36:22Z tassleoff_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-21T23:37:16Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-21T23:37:21Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-21T23:39:35Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-21T23:48:46Z v0|d joined #lisp
2021-01-21T23:54:47Z cer0 joined #lisp
2021-01-21T23:54:56Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-21T23:55:13Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-21T23:56:10Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-21T23:56:33Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-21T23:56:39Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-21T23:58:53Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T00:05:52Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T00:07:18Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-22T00:12:25Z npfaro`: How do I write a large list to a stream such that I can read it back in later?
2021-01-22T00:12:55Z npfaro`: prin1 is doing (1 2 3 4 ...)
2021-01-22T00:13:22Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-22T00:13:28Z npfaro`: so is `write`
2021-01-22T00:14:40Z npfaro`: so does pprint
2021-01-22T00:15:10Z travv0: you sure that's what's written to the stream and not just your repl printing the return value?
2021-01-22T00:15:13Z bendersteed quit (Quit: bye)
2021-01-22T00:17:03Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T00:19:08Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-22T00:19:20Z Bike: Do you mean that it's printing ellipses? That's because of *print-length*.
2021-01-22T00:20:03Z phoe: npfaro`: (with-standard-io-syntax (prin1 list stream))
2021-01-22T00:20:14Z Oddity quit (Quit: Quit)
2021-01-22T00:23:45Z patience_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T00:28:42Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-22T00:37:06Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-22T00:39:04Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-22T00:41:36Z luckless quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T00:41:36Z hendursaga quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T00:41:36Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T00:41:36Z madage quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T00:41:36Z cantstanya quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T00:44:57Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-22T00:48:43Z DarthVoyage left #lisp
2021-01-22T00:49:32Z npfaro`: thanks phoe
2021-01-22T00:52:23Z v0|d quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T00:53:51Z npfaro`: Is there any way to force printing a list with each value on a new line
2021-01-22T00:55:12Z Bike: you can do that kind of thing with the pretty printer, or you can do it manually
2021-01-22T00:55:37Z npfaro`: Of all the knobs here http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_wr_pr.htm i'm not sure which one to use to get that sort of thing
2021-01-22T00:56:06Z npfaro`: I guess it's not a biggie
2021-01-22T01:01:09Z ralt: loke: I've seen in some logs that you managed to get signals from dbus, would you care to share some snippets to do this? I want to subscribe to a known signal but unclear what I'm supposed to do.
2021-01-22T01:03:07Z livoreno: I think it's prin1
2021-01-22T01:03:55Z livoreno: nevermind, it's plain print npfaro`
2021-01-22T01:04:34Z ralt: loke: actually I just found your github repo with it, nevermind!
2021-01-22T01:04:34Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-22T01:06:15Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-22T01:06:38Z Oddity joined #lisp
2021-01-22T01:06:51Z npfaro` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-22T01:11:12Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-22T01:13:51Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-22T01:25:16Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-22T01:26:57Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T01:49:15Z aspr joined #lisp
2021-01-22T01:52:19Z cer0 quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-22T02:00:41Z patience_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-22T02:09:21Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:09:29Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-22T02:10:24Z nrh^ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:18:37Z npfaro joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:20:08Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:25:12Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T02:25:23Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:27:25Z aspr quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T02:27:42Z aspr joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:30:43Z aspr quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T02:30:59Z aspr joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:32:39Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:32:50Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:33:56Z aspr quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T02:34:09Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T02:34:10Z aspr joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:38:02Z aspr quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T02:38:37Z martinjungblut joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:39:17Z martinjungblut: what is a good way of iterating by two elements at a time on a list?
2021-01-22T02:39:42Z Fare joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:40:22Z npfaro: (loop for (a b) on '(1 2 3 4) by #'cddr collect (cons a b))
2021-01-22T02:40:22Z npfaro: ((1 . 2) (3 . 4))
2021-01-22T02:40:24Z npfaro: like this?
2021-01-22T02:41:37Z martinjungblut: oh that's brilliant!
2021-01-22T02:41:45Z martinjungblut: yes! wonderful
2021-01-22T02:41:46Z martinjungblut: thanks
2021-01-22T02:45:04Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:46:21Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T02:46:34Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-22T02:46:43Z npfaro: i don't know if that's the best way haha. if anyone else has a better idea please chime in
2021-01-22T02:50:42Z martinjungblut: npfaro: that was really great, though
2021-01-22T02:50:48Z martinjungblut: definitely helpful
2021-01-22T02:55:41Z bjorkint0sh joined #lisp
2021-01-22T02:58:07Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-22T02:59:10Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T02:59:13Z aeth: That is a very good way to do it
2021-01-22T02:59:39Z aeth: The only issue is that it won't error if it's not even
2021-01-22T03:00:27Z Alfr_: martinjungblut, careful if list has a odd number of elements, then on the last iteration b will be nil; just keep that in mind that it won't error.
2021-01-22T03:00:35Z martinjungblut: actually, I kind of need it that way
2021-01-22T03:00:36Z aeth: destructuring bind will force an error, unlike LOOP's destructuring, but it's not as elegant. (loop for sublist on '(1 2 3) by #'cddr collect (destructuring-bind (a b &rest rest) sublist (declare (ignore rest)) (cons a b)))
2021-01-22T03:00:41Z Alfr_: aeth, :D
2021-01-22T03:00:54Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-22T03:01:01Z martinjungblut: well, not need, but the nil is fine
2021-01-22T03:01:27Z martinjungblut: as a newcomer, I have to say, Common LISP is a hell of an environment to write software in
2021-01-22T03:04:03Z aeth: Oh, and there's an in between route, which is to do the sublist thing, but then destructure it in the next LOOP variable instead of having local d-b variables.
2021-01-22T03:04:10Z aeth: Because then you can manually check
2021-01-22T03:05:42Z aeth: Something like: for (a b) = (if (endp (cdr sublist)) (error ...) sublist)
2021-01-22T03:05:49Z aeth: Probably not quite that simple
2021-01-22T03:08:04Z martinjungblut: thanks a lot!
2021-01-22T03:10:58Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T03:14:02Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T03:16:21Z npfaro: is there any way to convert a number into a list of bytes without manual bit shifting
2021-01-22T03:17:23Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T03:17:26Z Bike: clhs ldb
2021-01-22T03:17:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb.htm
2021-01-22T03:17:33Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T03:17:45Z npfaro: :O
2021-01-22T03:18:06Z npfaro: beautiful
2021-01-22T03:18:15Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-22T03:19:42Z Bike: this only gets one byte at a time, so you'll still be constructing a list yourself
2021-01-22T03:20:09Z npfaro: just what i needed
2021-01-22T03:20:14Z Bike: glad to hear it
2021-01-22T03:25:21Z npfaro: Is there any better idiom for an increasing counter in loop than (loop for i = 0 then (1+ i))
2021-01-22T03:25:58Z Bike: (loop for i from 0 ...)
2021-01-22T03:26:26Z npfaro: thanks
2021-01-22T03:26:33Z Bike: clhs 6.1.2.1.1
2021-01-22T03:26:34Z specbot: The for-as-arithmetic subclause: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abaa.htm
2021-01-22T03:26:36Z Bike: for all the details
2021-01-22T03:26:43Z npfaro: this is like my fourth day of using CL and loop is so tasty
2021-01-22T03:33:47Z loke[m]: LOOP is indeed very nice.
2021-01-22T03:35:51Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-22T03:36:02Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T03:44:16Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T03:44:42Z hsaziz joined #lisp
2021-01-22T03:45:44Z hsaziz quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T03:54:13Z emaczen: What is the the timezone in encode and decode universal-time? I don't see a description in the docs
2021-01-22T03:55:00Z kapil_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T04:01:10Z Bike: clhs encode-universal-time
2021-01-22T04:01:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_encode.htm
2021-01-22T04:01:37Z Bike: let's see
2021-01-22T04:01:40Z Bike: right, it's in the glossary
2021-01-22T04:01:49Z Bike: "time zone n. a rational multiple of 1/3600 between -24 (inclusive) and 24 (inclusive) that represents a time zone as a number of hours offset from Greenwich Mean Time. Time zone values increase with motion to the west, so Massachusetts, U.S.A. is in time zone 5, California, U.S.A. is time zone 8, and Moscow, Russia is time zone -3."
2021-01-22T04:02:47Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-22T04:04:42Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-22T04:04:51Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-22T04:07:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-22T04:08:07Z emaczen: Bike: Where is the glossary?
2021-01-22T04:08:34Z Bike: if you look at the bottom menu on clhs pages, the glossary is there between "symbol index" and "x3j13 issues"
2021-01-22T04:09:17Z kapil_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T04:09:19Z Bike: sometimes there are links to entries, in italics in other pages
2021-01-22T04:22:02Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T04:26:17Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-22T04:33:47Z patience_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T04:36:41Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-22T04:37:42Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T04:38:03Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T04:43:17Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-22T04:44:38Z ebrasca: Good morning!
2021-01-22T04:46:42Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
2021-01-22T04:47:42Z ebrasca: beach: How are you doing?
2021-01-22T04:48:09Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T04:48:38Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T04:48:43Z beach: I am doing very well thank you.  I am currently working on updating the SICL specification to adapt it to the many new ideas and extracted libraries that have happened since last time I worked much on it.
2021-01-22T04:48:46Z ym joined #lisp
2021-01-22T04:48:51Z beach: ebrasca: What about yourself?>
2021-01-22T04:52:12Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-22T04:53:11Z ebrasca: beach: I am fine. I am playing with cepl.
2021-01-22T04:57:03Z beach: Great!
2021-01-22T05:01:01Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-22T05:05:26Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T05:07:20Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T05:07:58Z zmv joined #lisp
2021-01-22T05:09:16Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T05:09:40Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T05:10:57Z livoreno quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T05:10:59Z nrh^ quit
2021-01-22T05:11:24Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T05:11:55Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T05:12:03Z Core6069 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T05:12:57Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T05:26:02Z Bike quit (Quit: sleeping)
2021-01-22T05:30:13Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-22T05:37:45Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T05:40:43Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-22T05:57:25Z kapil_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T05:57:47Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:00:48Z kapil_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:01:30Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:03:57Z kapilp joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:04:15Z kapil_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T06:11:50Z zerno_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-22T06:18:47Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T06:18:59Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:25:46Z inoteajw joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:26:49Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-22T06:30:23Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T06:31:59Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:33:39Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:36:56Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T06:37:50Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:38:07Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T06:38:19Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:44:03Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-22T06:44:42Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:45:58Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:45:59Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T06:46:27Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-22T06:49:16Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T06:49:47Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-22T06:56:57Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:00:06Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:08:20Z emaczen quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T07:13:15Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:18:46Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:22:12Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T07:24:11Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:24:44Z adam4567 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:24:56Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:26:05Z inoteajw quit
2021-01-22T07:28:09Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:34:02Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:34:02Z dra_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:34:11Z dra_ is now known as dra
2021-01-22T07:40:47Z martinjungblut quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-22T07:51:16Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:54:17Z euandreh_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T07:54:18Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:54:38Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-22T07:54:45Z euandreh_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:01:44Z npfaro: Stupid question but how do I use the values returned by cl-json
2021-01-22T08:02:06Z npfaro: ((:TRANSLATIONS ((:TRANSLATION . "Do you think that's a good thing to do?"))) (:WORD--COUNT . 7) (:CHARACTER--COUNT . 17))
2021-01-22T08:02:13Z npfaro: How do i even index into this
2021-01-22T08:03:11Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:03:11Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-22T08:03:11Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:03:13Z phoe: npfaro: looks like a list of plists
2021-01-22T08:03:22Z phoe: oh, wait, no! it's an alist!
2021-01-22T08:03:29Z npfaro: oh, so assoc?
2021-01-22T08:03:32Z phoe: use ASSOC and RASSOC
2021-01-22T08:03:39Z npfaro: ooh rassoc
2021-01-22T08:03:40Z phoe: or alexandria's ASSOC-VALUE and RASSOC-VALUE
2021-01-22T08:06:14Z npfaro: thanks
2021-01-22T08:06:46Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:07:27Z npfaro: another dumb question, how do you test if a string starts with a substring
2021-01-22T08:07:38Z npfaro: i can't seem to find a predicate for it, so should i just make a substring and check that
2021-01-22T08:07:45Z beach: clhs mismatch
2021-01-22T08:07:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mismat.htm
2021-01-22T08:07:47Z beach: maybe?
2021-01-22T08:08:24Z krkini joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:08:26Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T08:08:50Z npfaro: it'll do the trick but damn that's unorthodox
2021-01-22T08:09:23Z zerno_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T08:09:45Z phoe: (eql 0 (search "asdf" "asdfasdfasdf"))
2021-01-22T08:10:01Z phoe: but that'll be less effective than mismatch
2021-01-22T08:10:08Z beach: Absolutely.
2021-01-22T08:10:15Z phoe: (eql (mismatch "asdf" "asdfasdfasdf") (length "asdf"))
2021-01-22T08:11:13Z phoe: but!
2021-01-22T08:11:15Z phoe: (alexandria:starts-with-subseq "asdf" "asdfasdfasdf")
2021-01-22T08:11:41Z beach: npfaro: "Unorthodox" how?
2021-01-22T08:12:07Z npfaro: Normally you'd have a function called starts-with? or something
2021-01-22T08:12:20Z phoe: that's what alexandria provides
2021-01-22T08:12:23Z beach: That's a special case.
2021-01-22T08:12:43Z beach: npfaro: The mismatch function is a lot more versatile.
2021-01-22T08:13:16Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:13:21Z beach: npfaro: Perhaps it is unorthodox because most languages don't allow keyword arguments to modify the behavior, and they don't allow "out of band" return values.
2021-01-22T08:14:10Z beach: npfaro: Lots of things about Common Lisp are that way, luckily.  CLOS, the condition system, macros, keyword arguments, multiple values, etc.
2021-01-22T08:18:02Z npfaro: The only issue is that mismatch returns nil when the arguments are equal, so (zerop (mismatch ...)) breaks when they're equal
2021-01-22T08:18:09Z beach: It's a bit sad, though, that the intrinsic limitations of other languages would make them "orthodox".
2021-01-22T08:18:58Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T08:21:26Z loke[m]: Can't you do something like (NOT (MISMATCH s1 s2 :end1 #1=(min (length s2) (length s2)) #1#))
2021-01-22T08:22:33Z Nilby: In my own far off world that matters little, I say begins-with and ends-with, because I find the mismatch and search forms unintuitive.
2021-01-22T08:22:40Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:23:17Z loke[m]: I agree with that. I prefer using the Alexandria functions for that.
2021-01-22T08:24:20Z beach: loke[m]: Did you mean NULL rather than NOT?
2021-01-22T08:24:59Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:25:03Z loke[m]: beach actually I meant NOT, because the CLHS specifically says that MISMATCH returns “false”
2021-01-22T08:25:28Z beach: Oh dear!
2021-01-22T08:26:09Z beach: Note to self: In WSCL, consider specifying that MISMATCH returns NIL as a default value.
2021-01-22T08:26:35Z loke[m]: I think it makes sense. MISMATCH is a predicate function that also happens to return a useful value when returning true. :-)
2021-01-22T08:26:59Z beach: That's certainly one way of looking at it.
2021-01-22T08:27:21Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T08:27:24Z dra quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T08:27:24Z estadocuantico joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:27:57Z loke[m]: Speaking of nil, I saw someone complaining about the terms NULL and NIL. He suggested a compromise: NILL
2021-01-22T08:28:16Z beach: But, but, they are totally different.
2021-01-22T08:28:48Z loke[m]: I think he meant null in Java (and others), vs. NIL in Lisp (and others)
2021-01-22T08:28:53Z beach: (typep x 'nil) and (typep x 'null) are not the same.
2021-01-22T08:29:07Z beach: Oh, I see.
2021-01-22T08:29:31Z phoe: how about NUL
2021-01-22T08:29:44Z loke[m]: I'm sure it was a joke based NILL being such a silly word.
2021-01-22T08:29:58Z beach: Unlike RPLACA, you mean?
2021-01-22T08:30:08Z zyz joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:30:16Z loke[m]: Unlike RPLACA
2021-01-22T08:30:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T08:30:34Z loke[m]: And SUMLIS
2021-01-22T08:30:36Z loke[m]: I mean SUBLIS
2021-01-22T08:30:37Z edgar-rft: where's a WILL there's a NILL
2021-01-22T08:30:57Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-22T08:30:57Z edgar-rft: but that sounds willy-nilly
2021-01-22T08:31:11Z beach goes back to updating the SICL specification. 
2021-01-22T08:31:12Z loke[m]: Hmm, RPLACA, SUBLIS... Was there a max 6 character symbol length in the first Lisp?
2021-01-22T08:32:27Z beach: It may have been the case that you could fit 6 characters in a 36-bit word at some point.
2021-01-22T08:32:29Z phoe: only six 6-bit chars fit in a 36-bit word
2021-01-22T08:32:31Z phoe: oh yes
2021-01-22T08:32:32Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:34:25Z loke[m]: Oh yes. The IBM 704 is a 36-bit machine.
2021-01-22T08:36:57Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:40:53Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T08:43:03Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T08:43:29Z estadocu` joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:47:53Z estadocuantico quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T08:49:58Z estadocu` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T08:50:12Z estadocu` joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:50:56Z j0nd0e` joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:52:00Z zmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T08:53:21Z estadocu` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T08:53:43Z estadocu` joined #lisp
2021-01-22T08:54:39Z j0nd0e quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T08:55:17Z anticrisis_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T09:03:26Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:04:46Z frodef: is allegro's (case sensitive) "modern mode" still alive, does anyone know?
2021-01-22T09:04:46Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T09:06:20Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:09:14Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:12:34Z moon-child: frodef: I don't know, but fwiw readtable-case is a thing
2021-01-22T09:14:07Z rogersm quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T09:14:08Z kaisyu[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T09:14:08Z infra_red[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T09:14:08Z jonathan| quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T09:14:08Z karstensrage quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T09:14:08Z astronavt quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T09:14:08Z phadthai quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T09:14:08Z XachX quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T09:14:08Z jdz quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-22T09:15:04Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:15:04Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:15:04Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:15:04Z jonathan| joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:15:04Z karstensrage joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:15:04Z phadthai joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:15:04Z XachX joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:15:04Z jdz joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:15:18Z astronavt joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:15:25Z tassleoff_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:15:48Z karstensrage quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-22T09:16:40Z wxie quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T09:16:53Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:16:57Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:17:21Z 7ITAAI1SC quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:17:24Z jonas[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:17:25Z santiagopim[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:17:26Z 32NAAL4OF quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:17:26Z anotherone9999[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:17:42Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:17:43Z Lolicon[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:17:43Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:17:52Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 242 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:17:56Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:17:56Z posthuman_egrego quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:17:56Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:18:00Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:18:03Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:18:05Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:18:05Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:18:05Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:18:23Z tmalsburg[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:18:24Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:18:37Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:18:57Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:19:14Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:19:49Z harlchen joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:20:50Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:20:50Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:21:21Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:21:22Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:21:22Z ThaEwat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:21:22Z cairn quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:21:25Z keizerrijk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:21:25Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:21:25Z christopheroei[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:21:25Z skye0[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:21:26Z malaclyps_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:21:26Z jdormit[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:21:33Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:21:33Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:22:02Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:23:33Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:24:45Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:24:59Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:27:49Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:28:11Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:28:16Z tassleoff_ is now known as tassleoff
2021-01-22T09:29:12Z mbomba joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:29:22Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:30:30Z mbomba quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T09:35:03Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-22T09:44:15Z shenghi1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-22T09:44:35Z shenghi joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:46:07Z adam4567 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T09:48:13Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-22T09:48:19Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-22T09:49:33Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:49:35Z arora joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:51:01Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:52:09Z pve: Hi, I'm thinking about how to organize the compilation order of my program. Is there an easy way to tell ASDF to load a file A from source (to get some basic functionality) then compile and load some other files to extend the functionality and finally compile and reload file A to ensure that the fasl is built with the full functionality?
2021-01-22T09:52:30Z pve: This would be one possible alternative I'm considering..
2021-01-22T09:54:02Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T09:56:50Z arora: I am new to lisp, my university professor suggested to learn it for AI course, what's a good way to start?
2021-01-22T09:57:58Z Guest33533 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T09:58:07Z moon-child: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2021-01-22T09:58:08Z arora: is it good for AI when compared to Python?
2021-01-22T09:59:38Z beach: arora: Most AI today is based on "deep learning", but for traditional AI, Common Lisp is both faster and more expressive than Python.
2021-01-22T10:00:21Z beach: arora: In addition to PCL, I suggest you check out PAIP for AI.
2021-01-22T10:00:29Z beach: minion: Please tell arora about PAIP.
2021-01-22T10:00:30Z minion: arora: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2021-01-22T10:01:37Z arora: and what is PCL?
2021-01-22T10:01:58Z arora: oh nevermind
2021-01-22T10:02:18Z beach: minion: Please tell arora about PCL.
2021-01-22T10:02:18Z minion: arora: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2021-01-22T10:02:45Z beach: arora: But PCL is more generally about programming in Common Lisp.
2021-01-22T10:02:57Z arora: Python has libraries like sklearn and numpy which makes AI easier, what does lisp have as equivalent?
2021-01-22T10:03:46Z beach: arora: I don't know what those libraries do, but some others here might.  Not many people here use Common Lisp for AI-like stuff.
2021-01-22T10:03:46Z phoe: arora: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#numerical-and-scientific
2021-01-22T10:06:22Z arora: beach: Yea that's what I thought too, I hadn't heard of Lisp being used for AI before
2021-01-22T10:06:26Z arora: Thanks phoe
2021-01-22T10:06:47Z arora: I know a bit of lisp because of emacs
2021-01-22T10:06:50Z beach: arora: Oh, it use to be THE AI language.
2021-01-22T10:06:54Z TMA: arora: From what I understand, those libraries are just python wrappers over some C and Fortran libraries. The wrappers are necessary, because python by itself is too slow for any kind of numerical computation.
2021-01-22T10:06:56Z moon-child: lisp was traditionally used quite a lot for ai.  The creator of lisp was also the coiner of the term 'ai'
2021-01-22T10:07:01Z voidlily joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:07:09Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T10:07:24Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T10:07:53Z zyz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T10:08:18Z arora: TMA: but since a lot of people use them in python, it became the "standard" of doing AI
2021-01-22T10:09:26Z arora: moon-child: oh wow
2021-01-22T10:09:30Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:09:41Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:11:19Z edgar-rft: CL has wrappers, too -> https://www.cliki.net/cl-blapack
2021-01-22T10:11:37Z phoe: AI meant something different in the 70s than it means now though
2021-01-22T10:11:49Z TMA: arora: This is less necessary with Common Lisp compilers that produce fast native code. However, the utility of libraries goes beyond any speedup, they reduce the amount of work a programmer is required to perform. There are Common Lisp libraries for numerical computations, for GPU interfacing, and others that can help you.
2021-01-22T10:11:51Z phoe: at least implementation-wise
2021-01-22T10:13:00Z edgar-rft: AI in the 1970s meant "Artificial Intelligence", AI in 2021 means "Anal Intercourse"
2021-01-22T10:13:16Z phoe: well that escalated quickly
2021-01-22T10:13:17Z TMA: arora: It used to be so that Latin was the language of science. Fashion changes. Python is now considered fashionable whereas lisp is thought of as démodé.
2021-01-22T10:14:28Z TMA: arora: (Mostly by those that manage any development, having no knowledge of either.)
2021-01-22T10:14:57Z arora: I had people in my class talk bad about lisp because it does like a prefix notation of computation, like 5 + 2 = + 5 2
2021-01-22T10:15:19Z beach: arora: Ignore those ignorant people.
2021-01-22T10:15:40Z beach: arora: Because they must not understand the virtues of that notation.
2021-01-22T10:16:48Z arora: since its quite different from the other languages, I dont see how its useful either, why does lisp have a different notation?
2021-01-22T10:17:00Z edgar-rft: Lisp indeed helped me to understand math better because I do not need to learn stupid precedence rules.
2021-01-22T10:17:23Z beach: arora: The term is "homoiconicity" and it lets the programmer manipulate programs as data more easily than other notation.
2021-01-22T10:17:32Z winny quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-22T10:17:50Z beach: arora: Other languages insist on making such manipulation hard.
2021-01-22T10:18:35Z logand joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:18:36Z beach: arora: But Common Lisp macros represent a powerful extension mechanism that is made easy with homoiconicity.  Other language users have to wait for the updated standard for similar extensions.
2021-01-22T10:19:37Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:19:37Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-22T10:19:37Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:20:19Z arora: What does homoiconicity mean in simple terms?
2021-01-22T10:20:27Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:20:30Z beach: That programs and data have the same shape.
2021-01-22T10:20:52Z grobe0ba quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-22T10:21:03Z beach: arora: Wikipedia has a page on it.
2021-01-22T10:21:14Z arora: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homoiconicity#In_Lisp this one right?
2021-01-22T10:21:36Z arora: so if I understand it correctly, new code can alter old code?
2021-01-22T10:22:09Z logand: common lisp macros are great, but should be used sparingly.  it is much easier to use a function at compile time by wrapping it in macro as opposed to using macro at runtime by wrapping it in funcall+compile+backquote+lambda
2021-01-22T10:22:16Z edgar-rft: arora: in Lisp it's for example dead easy to write code generators
2021-01-22T10:22:34Z beach: Yes, but that's not how it is used very often.  Instead, it is used in macros, so that the macro function (which is just code) can generate new code from some input code.
2021-01-22T10:22:58Z arora: oh like templates in c++
2021-01-22T10:23:16Z beach: arora: C++ templates are a joke compared to Common Lisp macros.
2021-01-22T10:23:22Z edgar-rft: macros *are* programmable code generators :-)
2021-01-22T10:23:50Z beach: arora: In Common Lisp, the same language (i.e. Common Lisp) is used to manipulate code as the one used to manipulate other data.
2021-01-22T10:24:53Z grobe0ba joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:25:19Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:26:12Z beach: arora: I don't think it is possible to understand the power of Common Lisp by comparing it the knowledge of the existing languages you know.  You need to learn it to "get" it.
2021-01-22T10:26:58Z arora: Alright, I will learn it and ask questions along the way.
2021-01-22T10:27:04Z beach: Perfect!
2021-01-22T10:27:21Z beach: arora: There is also #clschool for truly elementary questions.
2021-01-22T10:27:51Z beach: arora: #lisp is more for people who use it in some non-trivial way, or people who write compilers and other language tools.
2021-01-22T10:28:06Z arora: Okay I will join that too
2021-01-22T10:28:10Z arora: compilers?
2021-01-22T10:28:17Z arora: in lisp?
2021-01-22T10:28:18Z beach: Yes, Common Lisp compilers.
2021-01-22T10:28:30Z beach: Or other compilers I suppose.
2021-01-22T10:29:02Z zerno_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T10:29:15Z arora: That's cool
2021-01-22T10:29:38Z beach: arora: In case you wonder, there is no such thing as a compiler or interpreted programming language.  Those are properties of the implementation.  Most Common Lisp systems compile on the fly.
2021-01-22T10:29:47Z beach: as a *compileD
2021-01-22T10:30:11Z beach: arora: That is why a typical Common Lisp implementation is 50 times faster than Python.
2021-01-22T10:30:16Z winny joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:30:21Z arora: Aren't languages that support REPL interpreted?
2021-01-22T10:30:26Z beach: Nope.
2021-01-22T10:30:33Z arora: Oh
2021-01-22T10:30:33Z beach: Another common misconception.
2021-01-22T10:30:57Z beach: Well, you have a lot to learn, but you have started, so that's good.
2021-01-22T10:31:36Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:36Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z tmalsburg[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:37Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:38Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:38Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:38Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:38Z cairn joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:38Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:38Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:38Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:38Z skye0[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:38Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:38Z malaclyps_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:38Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:42Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:42Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:43Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:43Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:43Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:44Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:44Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:31:44Z keizerrijk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:32:25Z arora: Most of my friends are learning languages to get a job and make money and since lisp is unheard of, it is hard to find people who use that.
2021-01-22T10:32:31Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:33:26Z beach: If that's your goal, then sure, learn something else.  On the other hand, if you like to know sophisticated programming techniques to become more productive, then Common Lisp is a good start.
2021-01-22T10:33:49Z edgar-rft: arora: I already made money with Lisp, for just the simple reason that nobody wanted to do it than me (no joke).
2021-01-22T10:33:58Z frodef: one of life's hard choices :-)
2021-01-22T10:33:59Z npfaro quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T10:34:06Z arora: I don't really have a goal, I just wanna program and live peacefully.
2021-01-22T10:35:23Z arora: edgar-rft: Wow, I read something similar about COBOL a while back.
2021-01-22T10:35:24Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:36:21Z beach: arora: I think you will find that Common Lisp programmers (many of which hang out here) are on the average more knowledgeable than programmers of other languages, so if you like to hang out with smart people, Common Lisp is good.
2021-01-22T10:36:22Z beach: I think the reason for that is in fact that Common Lisp is a bit tough in the beginning.  So only more knowledgeable people are willing to attack it.  Just guessing of course.
2021-01-22T10:37:03Z edgar-rft: arora: you don't jet Lisp programming job offers every week, but it's wrong that you can make *no* money with Lisp.
2021-01-22T10:37:44Z beach: arora: But it won't be "peaceful".  You will soon find that you will want to learn more and more.
2021-01-22T10:38:08Z edgar-rft: true, Lisp is addictive :-)
2021-01-22T10:38:15Z beach: Definitely!
2021-01-22T10:38:37Z beach: ... so it becomes a lifelong learning experience.  Which I personally love, but it's not for everyone.
2021-01-22T10:38:42Z arora: I don't mind learning more, infact that's all I like. What I do mind is being annoyed for making wrong choices.
2021-01-22T10:38:54Z beach: Oh, you are in the right place then.
2021-01-22T10:39:28Z beach: Not many people I know who learned Common Lisp decided later that it was the wrong thing to do.
2021-01-22T10:39:28Z arora: I like niche and esoteric topics because I find them interesting
2021-01-22T10:40:02Z edgar-rft: welcome to the club, we make wrong choices all day long :-)
2021-01-22T10:40:28Z arora: :-)
2021-01-22T10:42:41Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-22T10:45:49Z zerno_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-22T10:47:02Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T10:55:10Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T10:58:45Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:03:00Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T11:03:08Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T11:04:29Z zerno_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-22T11:04:55Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:10:55Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-22T11:11:55Z j0nd0e` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T11:15:42Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:17:03Z arora quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-22T11:18:55Z zerno_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:20:02Z estadocu` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-22T11:21:03Z zerno_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T11:21:52Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:26:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T11:26:32Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:26:40Z Fare joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:28:51Z j0nd0e` joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:30:24Z j0nd0e`` joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:33:45Z j0nd0e` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T11:36:09Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T11:37:21Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:37:46Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:37:46Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-22T11:37:46Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:37:51Z asarch: In Postmoden, how could I get the last inserted row id?
2021-01-22T11:38:02Z asarch: *Postmodern
2021-01-22T11:39:39Z Xach: asarch: I use the :returning option in s-sql
2021-01-22T11:40:01Z Xach: mentioned in https://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/s-sql.html a few times
2021-01-22T11:42:24Z asarch: Thank you!
2021-01-22T11:42:26Z asarch: :-)
2021-01-22T11:42:27Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-22T11:45:02Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T11:47:34Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-22T11:53:52Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T11:59:33Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-22T12:07:15Z VincentVega: Is there a way to insert a comment in a macroexpansion?
2021-01-22T12:07:36Z phoe: no
2021-01-22T12:07:40Z phoe: comments are not Lisp data
2021-01-22T12:07:40Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-22T12:08:47Z VincentVega: hmm ok. I guess just returning a string between other forms could generate a warning as an unused expression, right?
2021-01-22T12:10:41Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-22T12:11:11Z VincentVega: although maybe it wouldn't, like it wouldn't for an empty progn, it's a macroexpansion after all
2021-01-22T12:11:35Z phoe: what are you trying to do?
2021-01-22T12:12:07Z VincentVega: just insert a reminder inside a macroexpansion for those who may be inspecting it
2021-01-22T12:15:25Z phoe: why though?
2021-01-22T12:15:35Z phoe: insert comments in the source code of the macroexpander for people who M-. into it
2021-01-22T12:15:36Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-22T12:15:46Z arora joined #lisp
2021-01-22T12:18:10Z VincentVega: thing is, you are sometimes inspecting the macroexpansion itself, to check that it's correct, or just reading it etc, you wouldn't necessarily be interested in looking at the macroexpander itself
2021-01-22T12:18:25Z VincentVega: * at the macro itself
2021-01-22T12:18:58Z VincentVega: it's not a big deal, but thought would be nice
2021-01-22T12:19:07Z phoe: hm
2021-01-22T12:19:41Z phoe: sure it could, but I don't think CL supports such constructs out of the box
2021-01-22T12:20:17Z phoe: I mean, you could create some objects that are then printed readably as #| ... |# but that would be sorta hacky I guess
2021-01-22T12:20:17Z VincentVega: I see, well, that's fine : )  thanks for the info
2021-01-22T12:21:25Z phoe: if anything, I'd structure the macroexpander in a way that is easy to understand and test, or structure the macroexpansion in a way that conveys the necessary information through the expansion form itself
2021-01-22T12:21:58Z phoe: like (define-foo ...) that expands into (progn (define-foo-bar ...) (define-foo-baz ...) (define-foo-quux ...)) for something that defines multiple things at once
2021-01-22T12:24:13Z VincentVega: I am doing something like that. Just wanted to put a reminder not to forget to eval, well, based on your example, form (define-foo-bar ...)  before expanding (define-foo-baz ...) (define-foo-quux ...) cause that's a prerequisite. As I said, not a big deal, asking more out of curiosity.
2021-01-22T12:24:42Z phoe: the PROGN will take care of that though
2021-01-22T12:25:01Z phoe: and your DEFINE-FOO-BAZ can signal an error if the matching DEFINE-FOO-BAR was not evaluated before
2021-01-22T12:25:02Z VincentVega: not when you are macroexpanding manually within emacs
2021-01-22T12:25:15Z phoe: wait a second though
2021-01-22T12:25:24Z phoe: you want your macroexpander to signal an error? not the expansion?
2021-01-22T12:25:51Z VincentVega: wait what error : D
2021-01-22T12:26:06Z phoe: I don't understand the "not when you are macroexpanding manually within emacs" part
2021-01-22T12:26:38Z phoe: I should be able to macrostep into DEFINE-FOO and then DEFINE-FOO-BAZ without evaluating DEFINE-FOO-BAR first
2021-01-22T12:28:38Z phoe: because, unless you use some EVAL-WHEN trickery, this is exactly how the Lisp compiler is going to perform minimal compilation on your code
2021-01-22T12:28:58Z VincentVega: sly-macroexpand-1 your macro call, you will get a progn with 2 macros within. Say, the first macro defines a class. Then sly-macroexpand-1 the second macro which relies on that class and it will either signal an error because the class is undefined or it will be using the old definition of a class if it has been defined before, which is more
2021-01-22T12:28:58Z VincentVega: dangerous.
2021-01-22T12:29:59Z VincentVega: If your macro is building the class definition, it may be easy to forget that you need to evaluate it before verifying what the second macro is generating
2021-01-22T12:30:26Z phoe: that falls into the "needs EVAL-WHEN trickery" zone
2021-01-22T12:31:05Z phoe: and when I see (EVAL-WHEN (:COMPILE-TOPLEVEL :LOAD-TOPLEVEL :EXECUTE) ...) in a macroexpansion then I can usually infer that the compiler state is going to be modified at this point
2021-01-22T12:31:43Z phoe: and this includes defining classes in the compiler environment that will then be used inside subsequent macroexpanders
2021-01-22T12:31:52Z VincentVega: Yes, i am using the eval when.
2021-01-22T12:31:56Z VincentVega: But I guess you are right
2021-01-22T12:32:02Z VincentVega: It can be inferred, huh
2021-01-22T12:32:02Z phoe: I'd say this is enough information then
2021-01-22T12:32:37Z phoe: but then I'd also separate the two macros because defining a thing and then immediately using it to define some other thing kinda violates the SRP
2021-01-22T12:32:59Z phoe: I'd first explicitly DEFINE-FOO-BAR that expands into EVAL-WHEN and only then I'd DEFINE-FOO-BAZ that uses the FOO-BAR thing defined earlier
2021-01-22T12:33:09Z VincentVega: srp?
2021-01-22T12:33:17Z phoe: single responsibility principle
2021-01-22T12:33:36Z phoe: not strictly a lisp thing, just a general programming practice
2021-01-22T12:33:54Z VincentVega: Don't want to seperate, it becomes too cumbersome to call then
2021-01-22T12:33:59Z VincentVega: I see
2021-01-22T12:34:07Z phoe: hm
2021-01-22T12:35:18Z VincentVega: I  mean if one thing always goes with the other, why sepearte? I guess it is all one and the same responsibility here: in my case I am generating methods based on the class.
2021-01-22T12:36:24Z VincentVega: * has to leave for a while
2021-01-22T12:36:36Z phoe: so you define some sort of class, and then make methods based on it?... hmmm
2021-01-22T12:36:48Z jdz left #lisp
2021-01-22T12:37:18Z phoe: is it only used there, in that single place? maybe then an instance would be enough instead of a whole class? I don't know your architecture so just firing questions blindly now
2021-01-22T12:38:15Z arora quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-22T12:45:44Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-22T12:48:06Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T12:48:36Z j0nd0e`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T12:49:39Z arora joined #lisp
2021-01-22T12:52:25Z ym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T12:55:09Z tinga: Why would one write (in-package #:foo) instead of just (in-package :foo)?
2021-01-22T12:55:25Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T12:55:48Z tinga: Or even just (in-package foo) in fact.
2021-01-22T12:56:00Z phoe: the last interns symbols in arbitrary packages
2021-01-22T12:56:08Z ralt: for the principle of least surprise
2021-01-22T12:56:29Z ralt: with #:foo people don't have to wonder if it's a symbol part of the keyword package or anything like that, it's pretty clear
2021-01-22T12:56:54Z phoe: using the #: notation also carries the information that you only care about the symbol name, not its package information
2021-01-22T12:57:08Z tinga: OK, I see. Thanks!
2021-01-22T12:57:28Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-22T13:00:27Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-22T13:06:50Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-22T13:12:25Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T13:13:29Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T13:29:13Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-22T13:31:33Z VincentVega: phoe: I'm back : ) So, I have a metaclass which you can use to define extra slot options. Say, you could specify `:ensure-valid-on-read t` which will generate a `setf :before` which calls a compute method if the value is invalid. Or, if you have slots which act as cache and rely on other slots, you can specify all that, and the cache will be
2021-01-22T13:31:33Z VincentVega: invalidated when those other slots are written to (may not make for the most efficient approach, but it does ensure that things stay valid).
2021-01-22T13:40:26Z Lord_of_Life quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T13:42:00Z VincentVega: When you throw inheritence into the mix, keeping track of things like that manually can become a headache, and having it all written out in this type of declarative approach just keeps it clean and easy to understand.
2021-01-22T13:42:35Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-22T13:43:27Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T13:46:51Z arora quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-22T13:51:01Z jmercouris: (list 0 1 2 3) -> (0 1 2 3)
2021-01-22T13:51:07Z jmercouris: (list 0 #+renderer-gtk 1 2 3)
2021-01-22T13:51:11Z jmercouris: (0 2 3)
2021-01-22T13:51:20Z jmercouris: Now, I want to have MULTIPLE items depend upon #+renderer-gtk
2021-01-22T13:51:31Z jmercouris: any way to embed a list within this list?
2021-01-22T13:51:42Z jmercouris: of course I can do stuff like (0 (1 2) 3)
2021-01-22T13:51:51Z jmercouris: but I want the result to be (0 1 2 3) when the feature exists
2021-01-22T13:52:00Z jmercouris: I can't for the life of me imagine how to do this
2021-01-22T13:53:07Z jmercouris: in otherw words, I don't want to have to write (list 0 #+renderer-gtk 1 #+renderer-gtk 2 3)
2021-01-22T13:53:14Z jmercouris: I would rather I can embed 1 and 2 in a single form
2021-01-22T13:55:02Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-22T13:55:04Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-22T13:55:46Z jackdaniel: you can't, because the #+ reader macro works on a single form
2021-01-22T13:55:54Z jmercouris: I see
2021-01-22T13:55:58Z jmercouris: thank you
2021-01-22T13:58:20Z pfdietz: (and (<= (length s1) (lengrh s2)) (string= s1 s2 :end2 (length s1)))
2021-01-22T13:59:26Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T13:59:51Z jackdaniel: lengrh: operator not found
2021-01-22T14:00:20Z beach: jmercouris: Your questions here made me curious about your background and training in software and theory, and I am wondering whether your background is typical.  Do you mind sharing?
2021-01-22T14:01:03Z jmercouris: I'm not sure whether my background is typical or not, as I have only experienced my own life, but I can share yes
2021-01-22T14:01:24Z jmercouris: I have a degree in computational information systems from IIT, basically it is about data analysis/engineering
2021-01-22T14:01:31Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-22T14:01:36Z jmercouris: I am an expert in data structures, with much less emphasis on algorithms
2021-01-22T14:02:07Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-22T14:02:21Z jmercouris: in graduate school I studied entrepreneurship and digital networks, I further expanded my understanding of data by looking at raw real world data, doing a lot of normalization, ingestion, classification work
2021-01-22T14:02:45Z jmercouris: I pioneered using machine learning to analyze the flow of information across digital social networks with regards to information diffusion
2021-01-22T14:03:01Z beach: I see, thanks.
2021-01-22T14:03:46Z jmercouris: so my backgrounds is primarily concerned with data processing, and less with algorithms, which is my guess as to why most CS find me oft uneducated :-D
2021-01-22T14:04:42Z beach: My hunch is that this is an unusual background for Common Lisp programmers.  But it's just a guess.
2021-01-22T14:05:30Z jmercouris: probably, I assume most people here are quite good with math, for one
2021-01-22T14:05:33Z scymtym: there is a special case in which a single reader conditional can guard multiple sub-forms of a form: (list 1 2 . #+sbcl(3 4))
2021-01-22T14:07:24Z jackdaniel: scymtym: technically speaking it is still a single form
2021-01-22T14:07:53Z beach: I think that's why he carefully said "sub-form".
2021-01-22T14:08:23Z scymtym: jackdaniel: i tried to step around that by using the (possibly undefined) term "sub-form"
2021-01-22T14:08:24Z jackdaniel: ah, right
2021-01-22T14:08:28Z jackdaniel: I've just checked the glossary, my bad
2021-01-22T14:08:37Z jdz joined #lisp
2021-01-22T14:08:59Z jackdaniel: it is "subform" in the glossary
2021-01-22T14:09:20Z beach: Indeed.
2021-01-22T14:09:21Z scymtym: i consider this a situational trick anyway since it only works for conditionally appending subforms at the end
2021-01-22T14:09:30Z jackdaniel: I'm still not sure why you said "special case" then
2021-01-22T14:09:39Z beach: At the end of the list.
2021-01-22T14:10:09Z beach: You can't do (1 2 . #+...(3 4) 5 6)
2021-01-22T14:11:02Z scymtym: jackdaniel: i understood jmercouris' question as being about the general case, that is guarding and splicing at any point
2021-01-22T14:11:30Z jackdaniel: uhm, thanks for elaborating - now I see
2021-01-22T14:12:22Z jmercouris: scymtym: you understood correctly
2021-01-22T14:13:23Z scymtym: jmercouris: ok. so the trick is probably not useful to you. but i thought it might be not that well-known and thus maybe worth sharing
2021-01-22T14:14:09Z xrash joined #lisp
2021-01-22T14:14:26Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T14:14:30Z Bike: if you're actually doing (list 0 1 2 3), you could make that `(0 #+renderer-gtk ,@'(1 2) 3), couldn't you? or is mixing unquoting and reader conditionals not kosher?
2021-01-22T14:15:27Z jackdaniel: Bike: it is not conforming afaik
2021-01-22T14:15:39Z jackdaniel: because ,@(…) is not a form
2021-01-22T14:15:48Z jackdaniel: however it will work on sbcl
2021-01-22T14:15:55Z jackdaniel: (because of how unsplicing is implemented)
2021-01-22T14:16:07Z pfdietz: (multiple-value-call #'list 1 2 #+sbcl (values 3 4) 5 6)
2021-01-22T14:16:56Z Bike: hm i see
2021-01-22T14:17:17Z pfdietz: m-v-c can be quite useful at times. This is not actually one of them.
2021-01-22T14:17:27Z Bike: lol.
2021-01-22T14:17:46Z beach: Heh, good one!
2021-01-22T14:20:02Z pfdietz: The useful case is where you're calling a function with keyword arguments that you may or may not want to include.  You could do APPLY and build up a list of arguments, but with m-v-c you can conditionally put the args right on the stack.  No consing needed.
2021-01-22T14:21:06Z pfdietz: (ruricolist pointed that out to me)
2021-01-22T14:21:16Z Bike: i like the thing in alexandria where curry does (multiple-value-call fn (values-list arguments) (values-list more))
2021-01-22T14:21:28Z Bike: instead of (apply fn (append arguments more))
2021-01-22T14:22:13Z pfdietz: Yes.
2021-01-22T14:23:42Z phoe: ...I just realized that values-list should have probably been called list-values
2021-01-22T14:23:52Z phoe: since it turns a list into values, not the other way around
2021-01-22T14:23:58Z Bike: yeah i mix it and multiple-value-list up a lot
2021-01-22T14:27:58Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T14:29:49Z heisig: Nowadays I always name conversion functions X-from-Y.  There is no ambiguity, and things line up nicely in the source code: (X-from-Y (Y-from-Z ...)).
2021-01-22T14:32:00Z jackdaniel: I remember in LiSP the author has a similar concern, whether x->y or x<-y is better, and he mentions this argument that (x<-y (y<-z …)) lines nicer then the alternative
2021-01-22T14:34:00Z _death: if you define a x<-z or x->z then it doesn't matter that much (look like a law of demeter thing to me)
2021-01-22T14:34:55Z kapilp quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T14:35:37Z jackdaniel: when I see i.e (x->z (y->x (q->y 42)))  it is less obvious to me whether it returns z or x, because the order of symbols doesn't really match the type conversion order
2021-01-22T14:35:50Z heisig: I also try to almost always use full English words instead of glyphs.  Otherwise you quickly drift off to something that resembles obfuscated C code.
2021-01-22T14:36:07Z heisig: Hence X-from-Y instead of X<-Y.
2021-01-22T14:36:31Z jackdaniel is fed up with too long names from reading too much clim code :-)
2021-01-22T14:37:16Z phoe: nihil-ex-nihil
2021-01-22T14:37:25Z phoe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/3c87c3f8b67ad1de275762568f4b8f9e562f5930/src/code/symbol.lisp#L534
2021-01-22T14:37:25Z _death: I cycled between a->b a-to-b and a-b.. but my argument is that if you have a-to-b and b-to-c, and you wish to make a c out of a, you should write a-to-c
2021-01-22T14:37:25Z jackdaniel: i.e COMMAND-ACCESSIBLE-IN-COMMAND-TABLE-P
2021-01-22T14:37:43Z jackdaniel: ah, makes sense, yes
2021-01-22T14:39:31Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T14:40:52Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-22T14:43:43Z scymtym: COMMAND-LINE-READ-REMAINING-ARGUMENTS-FOR-PARTIAL-COMMAND
2021-01-22T14:45:20Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-22T14:45:45Z pfdietz: ADD-ONE-TO-COBOL-YIELDING-COBOL
2021-01-22T14:45:55Z pfdietz: (the OO version)
2021-01-22T14:48:02Z tinga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T14:49:30Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-22T14:49:57Z neirac quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-22T14:51:24Z tinga joined #lisp
2021-01-22T14:52:28Z gareppa joined #lisp
2021-01-22T14:53:45Z Vultyre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T14:54:03Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-22T14:55:18Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-22T14:55:18Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-22T14:55:42Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-22T14:55:42Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-22T15:01:11Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:01:50Z mrchampion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T15:02:25Z zerno quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-22T15:02:40Z cods joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:06:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T15:08:49Z zerno joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:08:54Z gareppa quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T15:08:54Z Fare: _death: my current favorite is b<-a
2021-01-22T15:09:15Z Fare: That's the convention I use in my current software.
2021-01-22T15:09:44Z beach: Fare: No doubt because you are more into Scheme these days, right?
2021-01-22T15:09:46Z Fare: It composes nicely: (a<-b (b<-c (c<-d (d<-e e))))
2021-01-22T15:09:54Z Fare: I am. Gerbil Scheme to be precise.
2021-01-22T15:10:24Z Fare: I slowly port my software from CL to Scheme when the CL versions bitrot.
2021-01-22T15:10:33Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:10:48Z Fare: (mostly CL doesn't bitrot too fast)
2021-01-22T15:16:18Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-22T15:17:00Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:22:54Z cer0 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:25:03Z mrchampion joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:30:14Z Lord_of_Life quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T15:32:07Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:33:51Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-22T15:34:37Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T15:34:48Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:37:39Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:39:05Z caret quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T15:39:50Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:40:07Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:42:00Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-22T15:43:24Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack)
2021-01-22T15:43:41Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:43:42Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:44:02Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T15:46:16Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-22T15:54:31Z tmalsburg[m] left #lisp
2021-01-22T15:55:31Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack)
2021-01-22T16:04:27Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-22T16:08:26Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T16:08:32Z jmercouris: I'm thinking about this guy on Reddit who talks about extending CL with this new 'standard'
2021-01-22T16:08:36Z jmercouris: why is this occurring so ofteN?
2021-01-22T16:08:48Z jmercouris: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/kylep5/starting_a_batteriesincluded_extended_standard/
2021-01-22T16:09:48Z jmercouris: if anything the only thing I can really condone is a authoritative list of packages for beginners: eg. use this for JSON, use this for threads, etc
2021-01-22T16:10:14Z beach: So there is this very strange contradiction out there...
2021-01-22T16:10:34Z beach: On the one hand, there are people like this, screaming that the Common Lisp standard is hopelessly inadequate.
2021-01-22T16:10:50Z astronavt: something something xkcd standards something
2021-01-22T16:10:56Z beach: On the other hand, often the same people seem perfectly happy to use languages without a standard at all.
2021-01-22T16:11:12Z jmercouris: astronavt: a classic example
2021-01-22T16:11:19Z jmercouris: beach: that's exactly what I don't get!
2021-01-22T16:11:22Z beach: Like Java, C#, Python, you name it.
2021-01-22T16:11:24Z astronavt: CL has a huge amount of batteries included. the problem is that they dont always fit the kinds of flashlights that people are designing in 2021 :)
2021-01-22T16:11:25Z jmercouris: look at javascript, what kind of a joke is the standard
2021-01-22T16:11:36Z jmercouris: there are NO batteries included in javascript
2021-01-22T16:11:39Z jmercouris: and it is very poorly specified
2021-01-22T16:11:57Z astronavt: no batteries in the language, but there is a battery level api in the browser
2021-01-22T16:12:00Z jmercouris: what's wrong with just having good libraries???
2021-01-22T16:12:08Z jmercouris: no one ever makes these complaints about C for example
2021-01-22T16:12:26Z astronavt: arguably, they tried once, and ended up with c++
2021-01-22T16:12:35Z jmercouris: ay yai yai, that was a disasterpiece
2021-01-22T16:12:47Z jackdaniel: C has a new standard every few years
2021-01-22T16:12:56Z jmercouris: and we have bjourne strutting around like he can turn water into wine...
2021-01-22T16:12:59Z jackdaniel: and there are many good improvements in the language
2021-01-22T16:13:02Z astronavt: apparently c17 was more or less a bugfix standard for c14
2021-01-22T16:13:25Z astronavt: and adding ONE piece of new functionality (defer) in c2x is causing a big stir
2021-01-22T16:13:29Z jmercouris: and yet, many are just using c99
2021-01-22T16:14:01Z beach: Oh, this person hasn't use the condition system, but still has opinions about the standard. :)
2021-01-22T16:14:02Z jackdaniel: many were just using cltl2 for some years before most implementation implemented the "rest" from ansi
2021-01-22T16:14:08Z beach: That should amuse phoe!
2021-01-22T16:14:54Z astronavt: jmercouris indeed, i wish people would spend their energy writing useful libraries that do useful things, instead of imagining new standards that dont accomplish anything other than navel gazing
2021-01-22T16:15:07Z jackdaniel: adoption of the new standard is often inhibited by dragging compilers (i.e msvc supports c99 only since a few years ago)
2021-01-22T16:15:30Z jmercouris: but with macros, you don't need new compiler/compiler features
2021-01-22T16:15:34Z jackdaniel: so arguably a new cl standard would be a bad thing (worst case scenario would be the "perl scenario")
2021-01-22T16:15:36Z jmercouris: it can all be extended within the language itself!
2021-01-22T16:15:47Z jmercouris: we can add literally ANY construct we want
2021-01-22T16:15:50Z jackdaniel: many things can't be extended without a help from the implementation
2021-01-22T16:15:54Z jmercouris: why would we need to iterate on the compiler?
2021-01-22T16:15:57Z jackdaniel: delimited continations is one thing
2021-01-22T16:16:10Z jackdaniel: threads are another (well, kinda)
2021-01-22T16:16:26Z jackdaniel: networking is another
2021-01-22T16:16:31Z jmercouris: would you suggest a Common Lisp 2.0 standard that includes bordeaux thread spec?
2021-01-22T16:16:42Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T16:16:54Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-22T16:17:05Z jackdaniel: that's not my point - I'm saying that CL standard do miss some things, and vendors plug these holes
2021-01-22T16:17:11Z jackdaniel: sadly, often these plugs are not compatible
2021-01-22T16:17:40Z jackdaniel: that's the point of standards - they draw a line of what /must/ be present in a conforming implementaiton
2021-01-22T16:17:56Z jmercouris: is the scheme standard more or less exhaustive than CL?
2021-01-22T16:18:00Z jmercouris: I'm not familiar with scheme
2021-01-22T16:18:18Z jmercouris: IF less exhaustive, THEN, how do you explain its relative success? has nothing to do with the standard
2021-01-22T16:18:26Z jackdaniel: there are a few scheme standards and that caused a friction in the community
2021-01-22T16:18:28Z jmercouris: I think it has purely to do with the inertia of people working on/in something
2021-01-22T16:18:33Z phoe: jmercouris: which scheme
2021-01-22T16:18:38Z jmercouris: yeah, I don't know
2021-01-22T16:18:41Z jmercouris: A scheme dialect
2021-01-22T16:18:45Z jmercouris: one that is popular
2021-01-22T16:18:45Z booaa joined #lisp
2021-01-22T16:19:04Z jackdaniel: what is a scheme dialect?
2021-01-22T16:19:08Z jmercouris: you tell me
2021-01-22T16:19:14Z phoe: probably something from the list at http://community.schemewiki.org/?scheme-faq-standards
2021-01-22T16:19:16Z jmercouris: a scheme implementation with a name and some features
2021-01-22T16:19:21Z jackdaniel: I don't know. scheme is a language with the standard, no dialects
2021-01-22T16:19:57Z jackdaniel: (at least no more than sbcl being a different "dialect" than ccl)
2021-01-22T16:20:24Z jmercouris: I dont know, isn't SBCL a dialect?
2021-01-22T16:20:30Z jmercouris: SBCL has SBCL specific features
2021-01-22T16:20:30Z beach: Oh, there is also this idea that many Common Lisp programmers have, that Common Lisp deserves to be more widely used, and they blame the standard for that.  I think they have completely misunderstood why Common Lisp is not more widely used.
2021-01-22T16:20:34Z jmercouris: could it not be said to be a dialect?
2021-01-22T16:20:54Z beach: jmercouris: It's an implementation of Common Lisp.
2021-01-22T16:20:56Z jmercouris: beach: absolutely, a lot of it fundamentally has nothing to do with technology
2021-01-22T16:21:10Z jmercouris: yeah it is, but isn't SBCL specific code also part of the SBCL dialect?
2021-01-22T16:21:24Z Vultyre quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T16:21:25Z jmercouris: can't the term SBCL both refer the implementation and the dialect?
2021-01-22T16:21:33Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-22T16:21:36Z beach: I would not use the word "dialect".
2021-01-22T16:21:47Z jmercouris: superset? extension?
2021-01-22T16:21:49Z jackdaniel: the word dialect is a slang, mostly used with "lisp dialect" -- that means i.e that cl and scheme are different lisp dialects
2021-01-22T16:22:04Z beach: Sure, implementation-specific extensions exist.
2021-01-22T16:22:21Z jmercouris: writing SBCL specific code is non conforming to CL, and possible, it is therefore a new language
2021-01-22T16:22:24Z beach: Let me check what the Common Lisp HyperSpec says...
2021-01-22T16:22:29Z jackdaniel: person who is used to read code of one will immedietely recognize some common idioms
2021-01-22T16:22:58Z jackdaniel: introducing new operators to existing language does not make it a different language
2021-01-22T16:23:04Z jmercouris: how not?
2021-01-22T16:23:11Z jackdaniel: changing semantics described in the standard would make a different language
2021-01-22T16:23:17Z jmercouris: If I say language X includes operators Q R T
2021-01-22T16:23:18Z beach: jmercouris: That's not a reasonable definition.  If a C compiler is distributed with a library function, that doesn't mean it is a different dialect.
2021-01-22T16:23:33Z jackdaniel: consider that you add a function "foo" to your lisp image, does it make it a different language?
2021-01-22T16:23:33Z jmercouris: and then I come up with language U that includes operators Q R T W is that not a new language?
2021-01-22T16:23:52Z jmercouris: now we are getting really deep into what a langauge is
2021-01-22T16:23:53Z beach: I don't think so , no.
2021-01-22T16:23:54Z jmercouris: is it just a grammar?
2021-01-22T16:23:55Z jackdaniel: every act of programming would spawn a new language, and such distinction is not very useful
2021-01-22T16:23:58Z jmercouris: or a set of functions + a grammar?
2021-01-22T16:24:10Z beach: jmercouris: Syntax and semantics, and standard operators.
2021-01-22T16:24:14Z Guest33533 left #lisp
2021-01-22T16:24:20Z jackdaniel: words are used to distinguish things, not to make them less clear
2021-01-22T16:24:28Z jmercouris: not everything is very clear
2021-01-22T16:24:43Z jmercouris: sometimes fuzzy mental models are more useful
2021-01-22T16:25:03Z jmercouris: precision is not a god to be obeyed unquestioningly, sometimes imprecision is valuable
2021-01-22T16:25:05Z beach: clhs 1.6
2021-01-22T16:25:05Z specbot: Language Extensions: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_f.htm
2021-01-22T16:25:09Z beach: clhs 1.7
2021-01-22T16:25:09Z specbot: Language Subsets: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_g.htm
2021-01-22T16:25:46Z jackdaniel: being precise at all cost if of course wrong, but being imprecise without a reason is worse
2021-01-22T16:25:58Z jmercouris: hm interesting link beach
2021-01-22T16:26:09Z jmercouris: so here is a question
2021-01-22T16:26:10Z jackdaniel: s/is worse/also wrong/ (I suppose)
2021-01-22T16:26:14Z jmercouris: there are many languages that use C syntax exactly
2021-01-22T16:26:20Z jmercouris: but they come with a different set of operators and functions
2021-01-22T16:26:27Z jmercouris: are these the same language, or different lanaguages?
2021-01-22T16:26:28Z beach: And different semantics.
2021-01-22T16:26:35Z jmercouris: well, what are semantics?
2021-01-22T16:26:46Z beach: The meaning of every program.
2021-01-22T16:27:04Z jmercouris: I could make an objective-c program that looks EXACTLY like a c program
2021-01-22T16:27:08Z jmercouris: it would mean the same, and look the same
2021-01-22T16:27:13Z jmercouris: and yet, they are distinct languages
2021-01-22T16:27:21Z jackdaniel: if you specify, that function arguments are evaluated from left to right, and that function arguments are evaluated in /any/ order - that are different sematnics
2021-01-22T16:27:40Z jackdaniel: syntax is usually a superficial representation
2021-01-22T16:27:48Z jmercouris: since objective-c is C + objective-c is it fair to say that C is objective-c but objective-c is not C?
2021-01-22T16:27:54Z beach: jmercouris: That's not enough.  There are in fact code snippets that are simultaneously valid programs in many languages.
2021-01-22T16:28:28Z beach: Java might use C syntax, but it uses reference semantics most of the time.
2021-01-22T16:28:48Z jmercouris: it's still not clear to me what semantics is
2021-01-22T16:29:15Z jackdaniel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics_(computer_science) may be a good introduction
2021-01-22T16:29:19Z jmercouris: what is it, a set of operands?
2021-01-22T16:29:21Z beach: Yes.
2021-01-22T16:29:47Z jmercouris: so, a set of operations it performs
2021-01-22T16:29:58Z jmercouris: "Semantics describes the processes a computer follows when executing a program in that specific language"
2021-01-22T16:30:00Z beach: jmercouris: For every valid form in the language, what it does (return values, side effects).
2021-01-22T16:30:17Z jmercouris: so if we have the same syntax, and the same semantics
2021-01-22T16:30:19Z jmercouris: we have the same language?
2021-01-22T16:30:23Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-22T16:30:30Z jmercouris: now, what if we add more things
2021-01-22T16:30:33Z jmercouris: more semantics
2021-01-22T16:30:36Z jackdaniel: arguably the syntax is not even a prerequisite
2021-01-22T16:30:39Z jmercouris: is it still the same language?
2021-01-22T16:30:48Z beach: jmercouris: You can't really "add more semantics".
2021-01-22T16:30:55Z phoe: is C with its standard library still C?
2021-01-22T16:31:03Z booaa left #lisp
2021-01-22T16:31:04Z phoe: is C with a few different libraries included still C?
2021-01-22T16:31:08Z jmercouris: I guess what I am asking is, is Objective-C also C?
2021-01-22T16:31:25Z _death: jmercouris: C programs are also Objective C programs, because the latter is compatible with the former
2021-01-22T16:31:36Z jmercouris: _death: that's not really my question
2021-01-22T16:31:45Z beach: jmercouris: I should have added "standard operators" to "syntax" and "semantics".
2021-01-22T16:31:57Z phoe: is every C program guaranteed to behave the same under ObjC? then it sounds like ObjC is a superset of C
2021-01-22T16:32:06Z jmercouris: phoe: that's what I'm saying
2021-01-22T16:32:11Z jmercouris: so isn't SBCL perhaps a superset of CL?
2021-01-22T16:32:17Z beach: Oh, it is.
2021-01-22T16:32:33Z _death: jmercouris: Objective C purports to be a language that extends C.. SBCL does not purport to be a language
2021-01-22T16:32:37Z phoe: if we treat SBCL as a language of its own, then I guess it is
2021-01-22T16:32:45Z jmercouris: how is SBCL NOT a language?
2021-01-22T16:32:49Z beach: jmercouris: For one thing, it defines some semantics that is undefined in the standard.
2021-01-22T16:33:12Z _death: jmercouris: SBCL is a program.. it purports to be an implementation of Common Lisp
2021-01-22T16:33:24Z beach: jmercouris: Because, according to the Common Lisp standard, it is still allowed to be called Common Lisp.
2021-01-22T16:33:24Z jmercouris: SBCL is not only a program, it is a specification, defined by the program itself
2021-01-22T16:33:32Z phoe: I'd say it's a CL implementation with extensions
2021-01-22T16:33:34Z jmercouris: beach: yes, that's fair
2021-01-22T16:33:49Z jmercouris: SBCL is a reference implementation the SBCL language
2021-01-22T16:33:54Z jmercouris: which is a superset of common lisp
2021-01-22T16:33:56Z jmercouris: at least in my head
2021-01-22T16:34:09Z phoe: hm, that's a novel way of looking at it
2021-01-22T16:34:21Z beach: jmercouris: Had the Common Lisp standard said that no additional operators are allowed to be defined by an implementation, then it would not have been an implementation of the Common Lisp language.
2021-01-22T16:34:40Z booaa joined #lisp
2021-01-22T16:35:00Z jmercouris: beach: does the standard ever do that though? is it ever restrictive by addition rather than subtraction?
2021-01-22T16:35:01Z beach: jmercouris: For example, SBCL has an additional lambda-list keyword, &more is it?
2021-01-22T16:35:06Z beach: But that is allowed.
2021-01-22T16:35:10Z phoe: beach: yes, sb-ect:&more AFAIR
2021-01-22T16:35:19Z jmercouris: I think some stuff for hash tables as well
2021-01-22T16:35:22Z phoe: jmercouris: yes, some things are mandated to NOT be extended
2021-01-22T16:35:28Z phoe: e.g. the list of symbols exported by the CL package
2021-01-22T16:35:29Z jmercouris: phoe: oh I did not know that
2021-01-22T16:35:37Z jmercouris: that kind of makes sense though
2021-01-22T16:35:41Z beach: And the number of return values.
2021-01-22T16:35:52Z jmercouris: why would the number of return values matter?
2021-01-22T16:36:00Z jmercouris: if I return extra info to the caller, why should they be upset?
2021-01-22T16:36:05Z _death: jmercouris: it's true that when you, say, add a function to a set of functions you can think of it as extending a (maybe implicit) language.. in that case, someone who uses SBCL-specific constructs is indeed programming in the implicit SBCL language
2021-01-22T16:36:09Z phoe: jmercouris: a standard function that is defined to return exactly N values must return exactly N values
2021-01-22T16:36:20Z beach: Because it would change the behavior if multiple-value-call.
2021-01-22T16:36:21Z phoe: otherwise stuff that uses multiple-value-call stuff is going to badly break.
2021-01-22T16:36:26Z beach: Heh.
2021-01-22T16:36:32Z phoe highfives
2021-01-22T16:36:33Z jmercouris: fair enough...
2021-01-22T16:36:38Z _death: jmercouris: and since SBCL implements Common Lisp, then you can think of it as a dialect of Common Lisp
2021-01-22T16:36:39Z jmercouris: yes
2021-01-22T16:36:45Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-22T16:36:51Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T16:36:55Z phoe: yep, that's an interesting look at this topic
2021-01-22T16:37:01Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-22T16:37:04Z jmercouris: just something I was thinking about
2021-01-22T16:38:06Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-22T16:38:07Z jmercouris: _death: that's basically my line of reasoning, yes
2021-01-22T16:38:10Z phoe: I guess that from this point of view GCC also has its own flavor of C, given all of the GCC-specific extensions
2021-01-22T16:38:24Z phoe: and the fact they're required to build e.g. the Linux kernel, which is written in this C dialect
2021-01-22T16:38:25Z jmercouris: yes, we could call it, GCCC
2021-01-22T16:38:38Z phoe: same stuff with CCL which is buildable under the CCL flavor of CL only
2021-01-22T16:38:39Z jmercouris: or "Juicy" for short
2021-01-22T16:38:45Z phoe: jmercouris: :D
2021-01-22T16:38:47Z _death: jmercouris: but often, the useful view is that you're programming in Common Lisp with some SBCL-specific code, because we don't want to be programming an SBCL dialect, because it has no explicit specification, and may change in the future
2021-01-22T16:38:53Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-22T16:39:02Z _death: *in an SBCL dialect
2021-01-22T16:39:14Z _death: also, we may want our programs to run on other implementations
2021-01-22T16:39:15Z jackdaniel: from the programmer perspective it is useful to know the compiler extensions, but is calling different compilers with extensions of the same language "dialects" useful?
2021-01-22T16:39:27Z phoe: (and often does, via so-called minor incompatible changes and unannounced changes in its internal structure)
2021-01-22T16:39:28Z jackdaniel: that would probably mean, that there is no single implementation of the language, only "dialects"
2021-01-22T16:39:46Z jmercouris: I think it is OK insofar as all dialects are supersets
2021-01-22T16:40:02Z jmercouris: problems arise when they are subsets...
2021-01-22T16:41:30Z andreyorst[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T16:42:15Z _death: jmercouris: also, since Common Lisp leaves implementations free to implement things differently in many cases, we should be wary of relying on the specific choices made in this implicit SBCL dialect.. programs overspecify
2021-01-22T16:42:22Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T16:43:12Z jmercouris: yes, sometimes it is best not to peek under the hood
2021-01-22T16:43:16Z beach: In fact, the standard (perhaps not always intentionally) leaves a lot of things unspecified.
2021-01-22T16:43:25Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T16:44:18Z xrash quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T16:44:18Z beach: I think that's how people should spend their energy instead, i.e., try to define a standard with fewer things unspecified, rather than one with more or different stuff in it.
2021-01-22T16:44:51Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-22T16:45:25Z _death: beach: I agree.. and also there are many gotchas that may need fixing.. but I'd rather stick with this standard because I see what other people want to put in a new standard ;)
2021-01-22T16:46:13Z beach: I promise not to put anything new, perhaps with the exception of package-local nicknames, in WSCL.
2021-01-22T16:46:55Z beach: And maybe the semantics of special variables in the presence of threads, without requiring that threads exist.
2021-01-22T16:47:20Z beach: Those are all things that pretty much every implementation does the same way.
2021-01-22T16:47:43Z _death: beach: personally I see issues with package-local nicknames (I think I explained them here in the past).. I haven't used them anywhere, though I can imagine there might be a case where I would
2021-01-22T16:48:14Z beach: That would be good to know about before making a decision about inclusion.
2021-01-22T16:49:21Z _death: when I see phoe using a:foo here to say something about alexandria, I think it's a symptom ;)
2021-01-22T16:50:45Z phoe: _death: non-trivial amounts of Lisp code already depend on package-local nicknames
2021-01-22T16:50:50Z phoe: https://github.com/search?l=Common+Lisp&o=desc&q=local-nicknames&s=indexed&type=Code for github
2021-01-22T16:50:55Z _death: phoe: sure.. but not my Lisp programs
2021-01-22T16:51:07Z phoe: :D
2021-01-22T16:52:30Z _death: to me it's more similar to the way we're stuck with asdf/uiop
2021-01-22T16:52:53Z _death: although it has different implementations.. but no spec, so beach's work may be useful there
2021-01-22T16:53:47Z _death: (yes, I know about sbcl manual.. we've discussed this before ;)
2021-01-22T16:54:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T16:55:00Z phoe: modern Lisp is actually a single-implementation language without a spec
2021-01-22T16:55:10Z phoe: it's just ASDF and UIOP with multiple compiler plugins
2021-01-22T16:55:11Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T16:55:13Z phoe ducks
2021-01-22T16:56:01Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-22T16:56:35Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-22T16:58:21Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-22T16:58:29Z kapil_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:01:20Z jackdaniel: and as we've heard, modern lisp is being ported to gerbil scheme as it bitrots ,-)
2021-01-22T17:01:52Z beach: I would get started with WSCL if I could just get the dpANS as a single LaTeX document (containing multiple files obviously) rather than a custom TeX document per chapter.
2021-01-22T17:02:53Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:03:47Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-22T17:03:59Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-22T17:04:13Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:05:25Z booaa left #lisp
2021-01-22T17:07:56Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-22T17:08:35Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:08:43Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-22T17:10:57Z cer0 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T17:13:08Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-22T17:16:50Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T17:18:16Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-22T17:21:38Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:24:49Z andreyor1 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:27:18Z cer0 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:28:41Z aorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T17:30:13Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T17:33:05Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-22T17:34:30Z APic quit (Quit: New Screen + irssi)
2021-01-22T17:35:16Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T17:35:45Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:36:14Z APic joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:39:32Z ikrabbe joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:40:18Z tinga: Is RANDOM cryptographically secure? I.e. can it be used to generate session secrets?
2021-01-22T17:40:22Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:40:29Z phoe: no
2021-01-22T17:40:37Z phoe: use ironclad for cryptographically secure number generation
2021-01-22T17:41:02Z phoe: ironclad interfaces with the OS randomness sources by default
2021-01-22T17:41:08Z tinga: I'm getting a message "Session secret is unbound.  Using Lisp's RANDOM function to initialize it." from somewhere in the startup of this app (not sure yet where), so I'll have to track that down I guess.
2021-01-22T17:41:25Z tinga: Thanks for your answer.
2021-01-22T17:41:58Z phoe: I just had the funniest idea of replacing *standard-output* with a Gray stream that calls BREAK whenever anything writes to it, so you can inspect what exactly produces the output you are looking for
2021-01-22T17:42:15Z phoe: gosh that's a surprisingly niche and surprisingly useful idea
2021-01-22T17:42:28Z tinga: Found it in "dists/quicklisp/software/hunchentoot-v1.3.0/session.lisp"
2021-01-22T17:43:06Z jibanes joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:43:24Z ikrabbe: to interface with os randomness you have also to assure that this device is secure. If you are really interested in cryptography you should think about a hardware crypto device.
2021-01-22T17:43:48Z tinga: Sure
2021-01-22T17:44:50Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:48:10Z ikrabbe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDRAND
2021-01-22T17:48:19Z v3ga: newbie question. so I used quickproject to create a skeleton project and it adds #: before the project name. (defpackage #:project-name ...) it does that in both of the lisp files created.
2021-01-22T17:48:50Z v3ga: when I created the project I did add in a direct path but without a trailing '/'  it created the project directory but i did get a cowerce warning...
2021-01-22T17:51:32Z beach: Your two utterances are unrelated, right?
2021-01-22T17:51:50Z phoe: the "coercing ... to directory" is expected, use trailing slashes the next time
2021-01-22T17:51:54Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-22T17:51:59Z phoe: and the #: was actually answered a few hours ago... :D
2021-01-22T17:53:32Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T17:53:39Z v3ga: phoe: lol ok, I went ahead and made another project the correct way. I expected as much for ther coerce warning
2021-01-22T17:53:49Z jibanes joined #lisp
2021-01-22T17:54:18Z v3ga: beach: well I wasn't sure if my goof was the cause. I see now that's not the case.
2021-01-22T17:55:09Z phoe: yes, these are unrelated
2021-01-22T17:55:35Z phoe: the #:foo notation for system and package names is used when the symbol's package doesn't matter and we just want the name
2021-01-22T17:56:33Z Xach: slight tangent.
2021-01-22T17:56:44Z phoe: hm?
2021-01-22T17:56:54Z Xach: when implementing a didactic thing with the same behavior as the package system, i found it a lot easier to understand things when designators were forbidden.
2021-01-22T17:57:29Z Xach: when working with symbol management, using symbols in place of strings can really slow down building intuition when you are learning.
2021-01-22T17:57:34Z phoe: ooh, so (defpackage "FOO" ...)?
2021-01-22T17:57:36Z Xach: and list designators do too
2021-01-22T17:57:47Z v3ga: oh...ok, just familiarizing myself. It struck me as similar to clojures var reader macro #'
2021-01-22T17:58:04Z v3ga: gotcha. thanks
2021-01-22T17:59:09Z ikrabbe: When using keyword statements like :|some name| I get the error "illegal terminating character after a colon: #\|"
2021-01-22T17:59:16Z Xach: phoe: not that one particularly, but SHADOW for example takes a designator for a list of string designators.
2021-01-22T17:59:31Z v3ga: I was just thrown off because it looked a little different from a tutorial that i'm going through. Now I see...
2021-01-22T17:59:37Z Xach: so you could do (shadow 'cl:car) and it actually means ("CAR"), and the home package doesn't matter
2021-01-22T17:59:50Z ikrabbe: this happens after loading some files. Is that error known to someone, or should I search my own code for the problem?
2021-01-22T18:01:37Z phoe: ikrabbe: huh? could you give me some examples?
2021-01-22T18:01:55Z phoe: :|foo bar| evaluates fine for me
2021-01-22T18:02:06Z ikrabbe: Hmm, seems I acted bad on the readtable... phoe: (devfar testvar :|yes thats my problem ;)|)
2021-01-22T18:02:30Z phoe: oh, you had a custom readtable? with a custom macro on #\| ?
2021-01-22T18:03:48Z PuercoPop joined #lisp
2021-01-22T18:04:33Z caret quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T18:06:13Z PuercoPop: VincentVega: Regarding inserting comment sin macro-expansions you could use (progn "Comment as a string here" ...) as way to do so. But I think it is better to leave a comment in the macro with an example expansion tbh.
2021-01-22T18:18:43Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-22T18:20:42Z ikrabbe: phoe: yes possibly I had one, I don't have one, right now: (get-macro-character #\|)
2021-01-22T18:20:43Z ikrabbe: NIL
2021-01-22T18:20:55Z phoe: good, that is as it should be
2021-01-22T18:21:15Z phoe: escape characters are not reader macros
2021-01-22T18:21:38Z ikrabbe: Yes but still it fires the error. Somehow I fetched a char-trait possibly
2021-01-22T18:21:59Z ralt: ohai PuercoPop
2021-01-22T18:22:10Z ralt: sorry for all the PRs :P
2021-01-22T18:22:48Z VincentVega: PuercoPop: Yeah, I think I am gonna go with that, an extra bit of information won't hurt, especially that there are no warnings or other downsides that I can see.
2021-01-22T18:23:52Z PuercoPop: ralt: np, Thanks for the contribs. Now if you want to write one to use the secret service API through dbus ^_^. I'll probably look into your latest one after work today
2021-01-22T18:24:17Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-22T18:28:24Z ikrabbe: but still I have the error. strange
2021-01-22T18:28:55Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-22T18:29:00Z phoe: ikrabbe: could you post the erring code?
2021-01-22T18:30:04Z ikrabbe: Actually it is somewhere in my local libraries I load when I start my workspace, with some experiments and other stuff in it
2021-01-22T18:30:10Z ikrabbe: I first have to find the problem
2021-01-22T18:36:24Z ralt: PuercoPop: secret service?
2021-01-22T18:36:45Z ralt: I was planning on adding a gpg-agent integration with the existing pinentry module
2021-01-22T18:37:41Z ralt: Ah, you use Gnome Keyring?
2021-01-22T18:38:09Z ralt: Look at the pinentry module. If gpg-agent is setup right, it asks for your password in stumpwm.
2021-01-22T18:52:40Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-22T18:55:17Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-22T18:57:13Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-22T18:59:14Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:00:05Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:01:51Z VincentVega: What's "safe code"? "CLOS slot types form a notable exception. Types declared using the :type slot option in defclass are asserted if and only if the class was defined in safe code and the slot access location is in safe code as well." http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Controlling-Verbosity
2021-01-22T19:02:12Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T19:02:15Z phoe: VincentVega: code compiled with high safety
2021-01-22T19:02:21Z phoe: (declare (optimize (safety 3)))
2021-01-22T19:02:37Z VincentVega: declaim?
2021-01-22T19:02:55Z VincentVega: or declare?
2021-01-22T19:03:01Z phoe: depends
2021-01-22T19:03:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-22T19:03:14Z phoe: you can use both, declare is for local declarations, declaim is for global proclamations
2021-01-22T19:03:28Z VincentVega: I see, well I do (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3)))
2021-01-22T19:03:37Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T19:03:45Z phoe: in your sbclrc?
2021-01-22T19:04:16Z VincentVega: I could swear this was enough to cause an error in class where initform 0 was with type string
2021-01-22T19:04:21Z phoe: yes
2021-01-22T19:04:31Z VincentVega: no, i evaluate it in repl before quicklisp loading it
2021-01-22T19:04:35Z phoe: OK
2021-01-22T19:04:44Z VincentVega: but now it just compiles fine
2021-01-22T19:04:53Z phoe: there's been lots of similar breakages when SBCL started recognizing this sort of stuff as errors
2021-01-22T19:04:59Z phoe: like, across all of Quicklisp
2021-01-22T19:05:20Z VincentVega: interesting
2021-01-22T19:10:13Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:10:40Z tyson2 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:10:46Z mr-iznogud quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T19:15:49Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T19:19:34Z Core6069 quit (Quit: CoreIRC for Android - www.coreirc.com)
2021-01-22T19:23:36Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T19:23:43Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T19:25:16Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:25:16Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-22T19:25:16Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:25:33Z zerno quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T19:25:35Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:26:42Z andreyor1 quit (Read error: No route to host)
2021-01-22T19:27:07Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:28:59Z ikrabbe: phoe: I found the code I guess, do you have a preferred pastebin for that?
2021-01-22T19:29:43Z luckless quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T19:30:16Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:30:56Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:32:29Z ikrabbe: phoe: https://pastebin.com/Jg1HS4TQ
2021-01-22T19:32:57Z ikrabbe: actrually the readtable seems to be restored to its original afterwards, so I still don't know if this happens here.
2021-01-22T19:33:27Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-22T19:33:49Z PuercoPop: ralt: Secret Service is the fdo API, gnome-keyring is one of the implementations. Althought tbh I use my own gpg-backed solution from Emacs for my personal needs.
2021-01-22T19:33:57Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-22T19:34:03Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:34:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-22T19:34:27Z phoe: ikrabbe: still, I'd use a custom readtable for that
2021-01-22T19:34:37Z ralt: PuercoPop: have you tried the pinentry module?
2021-01-22T19:35:05Z phoe: like, explicitly create a new readtable, set the macro character inside it only, and then read with this readtable set
2021-01-22T19:35:10Z ikrabbe: yes, but I want to find out what happens
2021-01-22T19:35:35Z PuercoPop: ralt: No, I haven't mainly because my homegrown solution works 'good enough'. But I remember you had a stumpwm contrib for passwords
2021-01-22T19:35:36Z phoe: let me reindent your code first...
2021-01-22T19:35:50Z ralt: oh I forgot about that
2021-01-22T19:36:03Z ralt: yeah it was some integration with https://www.passwordstore.org/
2021-01-22T19:36:55Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T19:37:07Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:37:13Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-22T19:38:05Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T19:38:10Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:38:34Z phoe: I assume that the second set-macro-character might be invalid, because it does not set non-terminating-p
2021-01-22T19:38:44Z phoe: but I don't know what happens then if save-mac is NIL
2021-01-22T19:39:01Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:39:13Z phoe: is NON-TERMINATING-P respected then?... there's no need to have it, huh
2021-01-22T19:39:25Z phoe: still, you're mutating global state, my first advice would be to grab yourself a custom readtable for that
2021-01-22T19:40:07Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T19:41:51Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:42:01Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:42:52Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T19:42:58Z phoe: readtables aside, I kinda wonder what this code is meant to do
2021-01-22T19:43:52Z phoe: it seems to do something with characters?...
2021-01-22T19:44:11Z phoe: and I don't think charkey needs to be a macro
2021-01-22T19:44:30Z phoe: you're aware that CL has characters as primitive data types, right?
2021-01-22T19:45:25Z ikrabbe: it reads the output of an ascii program (actually the plan9 one) and builds a table of keywords with the names from the ascii table, that I can remember better, than the CL character names
2021-01-22T19:45:38Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-22T19:45:50Z phoe: oh, okay
2021-01-22T19:45:52Z ikrabbe: also it was just a programming experiment, that is quite usefull
2021-01-22T19:47:32Z ikrabbe: (tostring '("This is a" :nl "simple multiline string." :nl "Actually I used the code to write sed statements with" :tab " and " :esc "chracaters".)
2021-01-22T19:47:33Z ikrabbe: )
2021-01-22T19:47:53Z phoe: haha! nice
2021-01-22T19:51:23Z ikrabbe: I wondered for years now how to escape the quoting problem, when writing commands for remote contexts, because what you do there is:
2021-01-22T19:52:27Z ikrabbe: ssh -l user system "bash -c \"sed -e \\\"s/\\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/\\\"\"" # of course with a bit more sense ;)
2021-01-22T19:53:14Z ikrabbe: then I found lisp as the only language to get around that problem without too much problems.
2021-01-22T19:54:28Z ikrabbe: Now I write my commands as embedded lists: '("ssh" "-l" "user" "system" ("bash" "-c" ("sed" "-e" ("s/\\/\\\\/"))))
2021-01-22T19:54:52Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-22T19:55:10Z ikrabbe: and I can decide through the level how many escapes I need for such \" and \\ characters.
2021-01-22T19:55:36Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:56:14Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:58:13Z gaa joined #lisp
2021-01-22T19:59:46Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:00:07Z ikrabbe: currently I evaluate McClim Interfaces which seem perfect for my devops tasks
2021-01-22T20:00:45Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T20:01:39Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:02:24Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T20:02:51Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-22T20:06:41Z gaa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T20:06:52Z rfn joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:06:55Z gaa joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:07:59Z tyson2 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-22T20:08:25Z jprajzne quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T20:08:54Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T20:10:24Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:14:28Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:15:09Z ralt: ikrabbe: devops tasks?
2021-01-22T20:15:49Z ralt: you piqued my interest
2021-01-22T20:16:24Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T20:18:31Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:19:29Z siavoshkc joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:19:47Z gaa is now known as argh
2021-01-22T20:19:49Z nullman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T20:20:02Z argh is now known as arg`
2021-01-22T20:20:17Z arg` is now known as gaa
2021-01-22T20:20:24Z gaa is now known as arg`
2021-01-22T20:20:33Z arg` is now known as arghh
2021-01-22T20:20:57Z arghh is now known as haha
2021-01-22T20:21:02Z haha is now known as hoho
2021-01-22T20:21:10Z hoho is now known as argh
2021-01-22T20:21:13Z argh is now known as arghh
2021-01-22T20:21:21Z arghh is now known as orgh
2021-01-22T20:21:50Z gigetoo joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:22:07Z summerisle quit (Quit: In my vision, I was on the veranda of a vast estate, a palazzo of some fantastic proportion.)
2021-01-22T20:22:08Z orgh is now known as urgh
2021-01-22T20:22:22Z urgh is now known as urg
2021-01-22T20:22:46Z summerisle joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:23:16Z urg is now known as gaa
2021-01-22T20:23:23Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T20:24:42Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:24:56Z summerisle quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T20:25:07Z summerisle joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:29:30Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T20:31:56Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T20:32:42Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-22T20:33:42Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-22T20:33:53Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T20:34:14Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:34:15Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:34:19Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:38:25Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:40:32Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T20:42:46Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:42:50Z rfn quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-22T20:43:20Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:45:34Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:46:35Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T20:47:48Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:48:34Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T20:48:58Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:49:18Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:49:44Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T20:49:51Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp
2021-01-22T20:52:47Z mindCrime_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T21:00:36Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T21:01:09Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-22T21:01:27Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-22T21:01:52Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-22T21:02:55Z v3ga: so how do you go about removing an
2021-01-22T21:03:37Z v3ga: so how do you go about removing an undefined variable warning.  i've tried makunbound and unintern...neither one of those seem to be what I want.
2021-01-22T21:04:55Z phoe: defvar
2021-01-22T21:04:56Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-22T21:05:12Z phoe: define your variables so that they are not undefined
2021-01-22T21:05:34Z phoe: or rather: either defvar or let with friends
2021-01-22T21:06:08Z v3ga: phoe: what about with functions? 'defun'? how would you avoid it in that case
2021-01-22T21:06:24Z phoe: avoid what exactly
2021-01-22T21:06:30Z phoe: what does your code look like? please use a pastebin
2021-01-22T21:07:23Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-22T21:08:42Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T21:10:05Z v3ga: phoe: basically i'm getting an undefined variable for a function I mispelled and removed. https://pastebin.com/Nr398e6q
2021-01-22T21:10:48Z v3ga: i originally made '(defun scrambled-sitcom)' and now I get a style-warning for it.
2021-01-22T21:12:09Z aeth: the bug is in game-over-p
2021-01-22T21:12:35Z aeth: You take in scramble-sitcom as a variable, and then try to print scrambled-sitcom
2021-01-22T21:12:46Z aeth: Well, not print, just POSITION
2021-01-22T21:13:30Z aeth: You should also be getting an error for an unused variable
2021-01-22T21:13:34Z aeth: (Well, warning)
2021-01-22T21:14:02Z phoe: as aeth mentioned - it's a typo
2021-01-22T21:15:41Z aeth: This is a case where having variables and functions with the same name can lead to confusion because you were thinking the issue was renaming the function, when the issue was related to a typo in a variable name.
2021-01-22T21:16:17Z v3ga: aeth: Oh! and yes, I was. I see.
2021-01-22T21:17:42Z gaa left #lisp
2021-01-22T21:17:49Z v3ga: ok, thank you.
2021-01-22T21:20:42Z v3ga: Jesus It's right there too... I'm coming from clojure and not used to a usable stacktrace. -_-
2021-01-22T21:24:19Z harlchen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T21:27:31Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T21:29:29Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-22T21:29:38Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-22T21:29:49Z nckx joined #lisp
2021-01-22T21:48:47Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-22T21:49:39Z Nilby quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T21:50:06Z rlp10 quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-22T21:50:41Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-22T21:52:57Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-22T22:02:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-22T22:05:14Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T22:15:03Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T22:15:05Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-22T22:15:45Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-22T22:15:45Z andreyorst quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T22:18:44Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-22T22:19:59Z galex-713_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-22T22:21:10Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T22:22:29Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-22T22:29:52Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-22T22:34:14Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-22T22:36:34Z mr-iznogud quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T22:39:01Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-22T22:43:59Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-22T22:51:51Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-22T23:08:06Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T23:10:06Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-22T23:13:22Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-22T23:20:09Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T23:24:58Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-22T23:25:17Z snits joined #lisp
2021-01-22T23:26:04Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T23:26:31Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-22T23:34:15Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-22T23:40:15Z sz0 joined #lisp
2021-01-22T23:43:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T23:44:34Z jmercouris: Bike: is clasp via ros install up-to-date?
2021-01-22T23:45:07Z Bike: sorry, i don't know. i have never used roswell and don't know much about it.
2021-01-22T23:45:21Z jmercouris: Bike: have you attempted to connect clasp to any C++ GUI?
2021-01-22T23:46:15Z Bike: not sure. usually we use jupyter as the gui at this point, which is in the browser
2021-01-22T23:46:24Z jmercouris: I see, thanks
2021-01-22T23:49:16Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-22T23:49:38Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-22T23:56:33Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-22T23:58:09Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-23T00:00:02Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-23T00:01:00Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-23T00:05:44Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T00:06:02Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T00:07:48Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-23T00:09:30Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T00:15:47Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-23T00:16:32Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-23T00:25:57Z rumbler31_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T00:32:27Z wildlander joined #lisp
2021-01-23T00:32:39Z reb` joined #lisp
2021-01-23T00:33:15Z reb` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T00:36:21Z jonatack quit (K-Lined)
2021-01-23T00:36:56Z reb joined #lisp
2021-01-23T00:42:02Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T00:46:24Z Bike: i think i found a bug in sbcl's type simplifier but i'd appreciate a sanity check: could someone else compare (let ((c (cons 2 4))) (typep c '(or (cons (integer 0 8) (integer 5 15)) (cons (integer 3 15) (integer 4 15))))) against (let ((c (cons 2 4))) (or (typep c '(cons (integer 0 8) (integer 5 15))) (typep c '(cons (integer 3 15) (integer 4 15)))))
2021-01-23T00:46:28Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp
2021-01-23T00:46:30Z Bike: in a new sbcl
2021-01-23T00:47:50Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T00:48:06Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-23T00:48:06Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-23T00:48:06Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-23T00:48:29Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-23T00:56:44Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T00:59:03Z Nilby: Bike: That the second form is T seems like a bug to me. But I hardly every use such specific type checking.
2021-01-23T00:59:32Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-23T00:59:41Z Bike: so the first form returned false? right
2021-01-23T00:59:56Z Nilby: Yes
2021-01-23T01:00:10Z Bike: wait, no. that's the opposite of what i have. what?
2021-01-23T01:00:32Z reb: For me first returned T and second NIL ...
2021-01-23T01:01:00Z reb: SBCL 2.1.0.43-8b5f058b5
2021-01-23T01:01:00Z reb:  
2021-01-23T01:01:08Z Nilby: oops, yes, the first one returns true, the second one returns false
2021-01-23T01:01:34Z Bike: ok, right. to bugzilla it goes
2021-01-23T01:01:36Z Nilby: 2.0.10.59-b60246d32-WIP  :)
2021-01-23T01:01:51Z Nilby: I tested it with deftypes too
2021-01-23T01:03:47Z theruran joined #lisp
2021-01-23T01:04:51Z Nilby: duh I meant to say "that the first one is T seems like the bug"
2021-01-23T01:05:05Z Bike: yes, i'm pretty sure the correct answer is nil.
2021-01-23T01:05:44Z _death: yeah.. a "simpler" case that shows it is (let ((c (cons 'a '0))) (typep c '(or (cons number symbol) (cons symbol number))))
2021-01-23T01:06:05Z Nilby: and they are individually, without the or in the type
2021-01-23T01:06:11Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T01:06:17Z _death: er
2021-01-23T01:07:42Z _death: I guess it has to do with the integer specifier
2021-01-23T01:08:12Z Bike: i think it has to do with types that overlap but aren't subtypes of one another
2021-01-23T01:10:02Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T01:10:33Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-23T01:12:18Z Bike: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1912863
2021-01-23T01:12:46Z Nilby: but ccl does the same ?
2021-01-23T01:13:20Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T01:13:34Z Nilby: and ecl
2021-01-23T01:13:36Z Bike: I mean, if nothing else, the two forms should return the same result, right?
2021-01-23T01:13:44Z Nilby: hmmmm
2021-01-23T01:14:21Z Nilby: I think I encountered this before and figured I didn't understand cons types.
2021-01-23T01:14:58Z _death: ecl gives nil for both cases here
2021-01-23T01:15:18Z _death: ccl gives T and NIL
2021-01-23T01:16:17Z _death: clisp both nil
2021-01-23T01:16:49Z Bike: also i wouldn't be surprised if ccl cribbed logic from sbcl. and the sbcl logic has a comment saying "UGH." so i don't have the greatest confidence in it
2021-01-23T01:18:48Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-23T01:18:54Z Bike: sbcl simplifies the type to (cons (unsigned-byte 4) (integer 4 15)) but i think (or (cons (unsigned-byte 4) (integer 5 15)) (cons (integer 3 15) (integer 4 4))) would be more correct
2021-01-23T01:19:07Z nij: I have quickloaded a package into SLY. How to I jump to the source code at point?
2021-01-23T01:21:01Z _death: maybe M-.?
2021-01-23T01:21:59Z nij: it has been rebound :(
2021-01-23T01:22:25Z nij: I've fuzzily searched "sly look up" and "sly go to" without luck
2021-01-23T01:22:33Z _death: to what?
2021-01-23T01:23:09Z nij: evil-normal-state-map M-.
2021-01-23T01:23:12Z nij: I'm using doom.
2021-01-23T01:23:49Z _death: maybe there's a sly-edit-definition.. assuming s/slime/sly/
2021-01-23T01:24:07Z nij: OH YES!
2021-01-23T01:24:10Z nij: Thanks T_T
2021-01-23T01:25:29Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T01:34:27Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T01:37:55Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T01:39:08Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T01:39:48Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-23T01:49:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T01:51:50Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-23T01:52:05Z imode quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T01:52:24Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-23T01:54:40Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-23T02:01:04Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-23T02:01:43Z kapil_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-23T02:02:20Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T02:03:11Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T02:07:48Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T02:08:51Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T02:21:08Z cer0 quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-23T02:28:19Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-23T02:34:31Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-23T02:42:10Z mrios22 quit (Quit: mrios22)
2021-01-23T02:45:13Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T02:46:17Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T02:49:30Z charles`: is it possible to use GENSYM too much?
2021-01-23T02:50:52Z Bike: like, morally?
2021-01-23T02:51:55Z pranavats: You mean so much that it becomes hard to debug?
2021-01-23T02:52:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T02:55:49Z logand` joined #lisp
2021-01-23T02:56:37Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T02:57:19Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T02:57:36Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T02:59:29Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T03:01:24Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T03:03:26Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T03:04:15Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T03:08:55Z charles`: I mean that the counter gets too big.
2021-01-23T03:09:11Z charles`: is is morally wrong to use it from something other than macros?
2021-01-23T03:09:15Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-23T03:10:54Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T03:11:57Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T03:12:53Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T03:13:58Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T03:14:22Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T03:15:06Z wildlander quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-23T03:15:28Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T03:16:00Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T03:16:55Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T03:18:00Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T03:18:41Z aeth: charles`: I mean, it's possible that gensym's a nonnegative (or positive? does it start at 0?) fixnum
2021-01-23T03:18:48Z aeth: well, the gensym counter
2021-01-23T03:19:57Z aeth: Well, no, I don't think that would be conforming for an implementation to do that because you can rebind *gensym-counter* to any integer
2021-01-23T03:20:38Z aeth: (* any non-negative integer)
2021-01-23T03:20:41Z aeth: e.g.
2021-01-23T03:20:55Z aeth: (let ((*gensym-counter* (expt 2 123))) (gensym "FOO")) => #:FOO10633823966279326983230456482242756608
2021-01-23T03:21:22Z aeth: at least, going off of this: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_gensym.htm
2021-01-23T03:22:26Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-23T03:23:00Z charles`: I'm not having any issues, I just want to make sure I wont run into any in the future
2021-01-23T03:24:18Z aeth: well, this seems to work in SBCL... (let ((*gensym-counter* (expt 2 999))) (gensym "FOO"))
2021-01-23T03:24:23Z aeth: How many gensyms are you planning on making?
2021-01-23T03:27:01Z aeth: I guess you could run out of memory...
2021-01-23T03:38:21Z charles`: is there a safer way to generate unique strings?
2021-01-23T03:38:53Z Alfr: Use a counter.
2021-01-23T03:47:09Z flatheap joined #lisp
2021-01-23T03:49:20Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T03:51:00Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-23T04:00:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-23T04:01:08Z jasom: good morning beach
2021-01-23T04:02:32Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T04:05:26Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T04:15:28Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T04:17:44Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-23T04:21:39Z ebrasca: Good morning!
2021-01-23T04:21:47Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
2021-01-23T04:23:21Z ebrasca: beach: Are you a teacher?
2021-01-23T04:23:38Z beach: I am yes.
2021-01-23T04:23:45Z beach: Teacher and researcher.
2021-01-23T04:26:11Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T04:26:59Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-23T04:29:29Z beach: ebrasca: Why do you ask?
2021-01-23T04:31:14Z ebrasca: beach: Because I like to know it and you are interesting person.
2021-01-23T04:31:24Z beach: Oh, heh!  Thanks!
2021-01-23T04:32:32Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-23T04:39:27Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-01-23T04:40:25Z ebrasca is interested how does beach think when making big projects.
2021-01-23T04:42:51Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-23T04:45:50Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T04:47:39Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T04:52:12Z epony joined #lisp
2021-01-23T04:53:12Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-23T05:02:26Z Lycurgus quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T05:10:35Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-23T05:12:07Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-23T05:15:59Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-23T05:19:41Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T05:20:24Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T05:21:30Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T05:22:14Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T05:31:07Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T05:32:48Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-23T05:33:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T05:35:21Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T05:35:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T05:37:37Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-23T05:51:38Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T06:03:10Z jrm quit (Quit: ciao)
2021-01-23T06:03:36Z jrm joined #lisp
2021-01-23T06:04:55Z siavoshkc quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.0.2 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/)
2021-01-23T06:10:20Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-23T06:27:28Z mrchampion quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T06:30:25Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-23T06:30:27Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-23T06:36:58Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-23T06:38:51Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-23T06:41:45Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-23T06:42:14Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-23T06:57:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T06:57:04Z sword865 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T06:59:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-23T07:04:24Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-23T07:04:52Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-23T07:08:20Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-23T07:11:14Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-23T07:17:39Z kapil_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T07:18:02Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T07:33:54Z patience_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-23T07:37:56Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T07:49:52Z imode quit (Quit: Sleep.)
2021-01-23T07:50:26Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T07:55:02Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-23T07:55:22Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-23T08:00:07Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:03:01Z saganman is now known as blackadder
2021-01-23T08:03:51Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:04:48Z Posterdati joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:07:37Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T08:08:24Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-23T08:09:11Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-23T08:09:27Z rfn joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:10:06Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:12:14Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T08:18:24Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:20:29Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:26:56Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:27:54Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:28:25Z gutter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T08:29:30Z hylisper joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:30:06Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:39:03Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T08:39:35Z hylisper left #lisp
2021-01-23T08:39:40Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:47:12Z asarch: With Datafly I prepare the SQL statement: (insert-into :students (set= :last_name "Uzumaki" :first_name "Naruto" :address "Ever green st #598, Konoha" (returning :id))
2021-01-23T08:47:28Z asarch: And then I execute it: (execute (insert-into :students ...
2021-01-23T08:47:54Z asarch: With the database connection: (with-connection (db :school) (execute (insert-into :students (set= ...
2021-01-23T08:48:18Z asarch: However, neither of those expression actually returns the id of the newly record created
2021-01-23T08:49:17Z asarch: Reading the issues about the Datafly project, https://github.com/fukamachi/datafly/issues/7, a fellow says there is an expression to get the id using SQLite3: sqlite3:last-insert-rowid
2021-01-23T08:49:43Z asarch: Do you know anything similar but for PostgreSQL?
2021-01-23T08:50:19Z asarch: I think Datafly actually uses cl-postgres for its backend
2021-01-23T08:50:41Z asarch: Which cl-postgres is actually Postmodern, right?
2021-01-23T08:52:56Z deltab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T08:54:26Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T08:54:39Z tessier joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:54:39Z tessier quit (Changing host)
2021-01-23T08:54:39Z tessier joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:55:09Z deltab joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:58:34Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:58:34Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-23T08:58:34Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-23T08:58:49Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:04:35Z ecm quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-23T09:04:35Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-23T09:04:36Z santiagopim[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-23T09:04:36Z jonathan| quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-23T09:04:36Z phadthai quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-23T09:04:36Z XachX quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-23T09:04:36Z jdz quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-23T09:06:36Z jdz joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:06:36Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:06:36Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:06:36Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:06:36Z jonathan| joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:06:36Z phadthai joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:06:36Z XachX joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:06:41Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:07:20Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:07:45Z nckx joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:09:46Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:09:58Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:09:58Z anotherone9999[m quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:09:58Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:09:58Z jdormit[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:09:58Z malaclyps_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:09:58Z jonas[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:09:58Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:09:59Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:09:59Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:00Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:00Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:00Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:09Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 243 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:09Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 243 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:10Z christopheroei[m quit (Ping timeout: 243 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:12Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 243 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:12Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:13Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:13Z ThaEwat quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:15Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:22Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:22Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:23Z santiagopim[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:27Z keizerrijk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:28Z Lolicon[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:28Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:28Z posthuman_egrego quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:28Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:28Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:28Z cairn quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:40Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:10:51Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:11:22Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:12:26Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:12:56Z skye0[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:16:39Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-23T09:16:57Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:28:52Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:29:20Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:29:26Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:30:37Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-23T09:31:20Z sveit quit (Quit: Bye)
2021-01-23T09:32:01Z sveit joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:33:54Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:33:57Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:34:09Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:34:19Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:34:20Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:35:00Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:37:27Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:37:35Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:38:28Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:38:34Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:39:05Z malaclyps_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:39:24Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:39:43Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:39:52Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:40:26Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-23T09:41:38Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:41:51Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:42:43Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:43:11Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:44:42Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:44:49Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:45:07Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:46:05Z phoe: huh? actually, what do you mean?
2021-01-23T09:46:12Z phoe: postmodern is a separate library from cl-postgres
2021-01-23T09:47:33Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:48:20Z cairn joined #lisp
2021-01-23T09:55:24Z jdormit[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:55:24Z christopheroei[m quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:55:24Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:55:25Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 241 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:55:35Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:55:35Z jonas[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:55:52Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:55:52Z posthuman_egrego quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:55:56Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:55:56Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:55:56Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:56:05Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:56:06Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:56:06Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:56:06Z santiagopim[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:56:21Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:56:22Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:56:24Z cairn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:56:24Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:56:26Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:56:26Z malaclyps_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:56:26Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T09:58:47Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:07:16Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T10:09:46Z sveit quit (Quit: Bye)
2021-01-23T10:10:01Z sveit joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:12:23Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-23T10:13:03Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:19:50Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:20:44Z VincentVega: Is there a way to capture all values that a function returns without specifying the values one by one with multiple-value-bind? Maybe put them in a list or something?
2021-01-23T10:20:47Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:21:05Z VincentVega: * capture -> bind
2021-01-23T10:21:07Z beach: clhs multiple-value-list
2021-01-23T10:21:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_mult_1.htm
2021-01-23T10:21:30Z VincentVega: thank you!
2021-01-23T10:21:36Z beach: Anytime.
2021-01-23T10:26:06Z mr-iznogud quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T10:27:44Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T10:28:41Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:33:02Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:34:36Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:39:29Z kpoeck_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:40:42Z kpoeck_: phoe: cl-postgres seem to reside in postmodern, see https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern/blob/master/cl-postgres.asd
2021-01-23T10:43:34Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:34Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:34Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:34Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:34Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:34Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:34Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:35Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:35Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:35Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:35Z skye0[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:35Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:35Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:35Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:35Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:35Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:35Z cairn joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:35Z malaclyps_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:36Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:36Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:36Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:36Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:36Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:36Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:40Z keizerrijk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:40Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:41Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:41Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:41Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:41Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:41Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:41Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:42Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:43:44Z ey[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:44:11Z xanderle_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T10:44:52Z phoe: kpoeck_: yes, though technically one can use cl-postgres without postmodern, since the latter builds on top of the former
2021-01-23T10:46:33Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-23T10:59:55Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-23T11:01:31Z davd33 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T11:06:45Z sword865 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-23T11:07:24Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-23T11:13:05Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T11:14:06Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T11:14:39Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T11:14:59Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T11:19:49Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-23T11:20:57Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T11:21:21Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T11:26:03Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T11:26:29Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-23T11:31:54Z phantomics: Is there a way to change the epsilon used when comparing floats? If I do for example (let ((single-float-epsilon ...)) (= num1 num2)) it fails because single-float-epsilon is a constant
2021-01-23T11:32:27Z phoe: yes, you can't rebind that
2021-01-23T11:32:53Z phoe: if anything, I'd (< (abs (- num1 num2)) epsilon)
2021-01-23T11:33:01Z phoe: so the old-fashioned way
2021-01-23T11:34:00Z phantomics: Thanks, makes sense
2021-01-23T11:34:12Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-23T11:34:44Z phoe: AFAIR epsilons in Lisp are defined to be the smallest nonzero floats
2021-01-23T11:35:10Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-23T11:35:11Z phoe: oh, wait, not exactly
2021-01-23T11:35:20Z phantomics: Not meant to be mutable
2021-01-23T11:35:20Z phoe: clhs short-float-epsilon
2021-01-23T11:35:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_short_.htm
2021-01-23T11:35:39Z phoe: yes, they're constants for use in user code, but nothing that affects how #'= works
2021-01-23T11:36:31Z shka_: or any other lisp function as far i know
2021-01-23T11:36:42Z phoe: yes
2021-01-23T11:36:43Z shka_: not the standard one
2021-01-23T11:36:54Z shka_: also, rebinding constants is not the best idea
2021-01-23T11:37:06Z phoe: ;; mostly because it's impossible
2021-01-23T11:37:18Z shka_: yes
2021-01-23T11:37:20Z phantomics: I see, it wouldn't affect #'= anyhow
2021-01-23T11:37:25Z shka_: i mean, it is possible
2021-01-23T11:37:29Z shka_: but undefined
2021-01-23T11:37:44Z shka_: phantomics: you need to write your own epsilon=
2021-01-23T11:38:02Z shka_: alexandria does not have it
2021-01-23T11:38:02Z rtypo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T11:39:10Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-23T11:39:12Z phantomics: Got it
2021-01-23T12:02:17Z rtypo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T12:02:48Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-23T12:03:35Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-23T12:12:51Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-23T12:15:35Z bendersteed joined #lisp
2021-01-23T12:16:47Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T12:26:08Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-23T12:28:52Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T12:29:21Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T12:30:32Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-23T12:34:26Z bendersteed quit (Quit: bye all)
2021-01-23T12:41:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T12:41:35Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T12:45:36Z ggole joined #lisp
2021-01-23T12:45:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T12:45:46Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T12:45:52Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-23T12:50:10Z kpoeck_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-23T13:03:05Z davd33 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T13:06:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T13:06:54Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T13:06:54Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T13:09:14Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T13:28:45Z lalitmee joined #lisp
2021-01-23T13:30:02Z mrios22 quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-23T13:30:19Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T13:42:49Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-23T13:46:12Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T13:46:54Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T13:50:37Z euandreh_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T13:54:47Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T13:55:10Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T13:58:57Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:00:23Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T14:16:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T14:17:33Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T14:17:35Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:18:13Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:18:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:18:46Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:18:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T14:19:28Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:20:18Z tassleoff quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T14:21:18Z euandreh_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:21:52Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:22:31Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-23T14:26:36Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T14:26:47Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:31:34Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:34:21Z lalitmee_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:37:14Z lalitmee quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T14:43:19Z josrr joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:45:59Z josrr: asarch: you need to use retrieve-one instead of execute to get the id
2021-01-23T14:47:43Z clintm joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:51:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T14:53:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-23T14:56:18Z mrchampion joined #lisp
2021-01-23T15:02:54Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-23T15:08:40Z lalitmee_ is now known as lalitmee
2021-01-23T15:10:03Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-23T15:10:22Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-23T15:18:10Z Achylles joined #lisp
2021-01-23T15:19:14Z Achylles quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-23T15:19:43Z Achylles joined #lisp
2021-01-23T15:24:18Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T15:24:24Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T15:29:09Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-23T15:30:15Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T15:30:37Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T15:36:24Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-23T15:37:25Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T15:42:13Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T15:42:31Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-23T15:51:06Z ey[m] quit (Bad user info)
2021-01-23T15:54:01Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-23T15:57:41Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-23T16:04:54Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-23T16:18:20Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-23T16:24:38Z lalitmee quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T16:24:56Z lalitmee joined #lisp
2021-01-23T16:25:57Z lalitmee quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-23T16:26:28Z lalitmee joined #lisp
2021-01-23T16:27:14Z lalitmee quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-23T16:27:39Z lalitmee joined #lisp
2021-01-23T16:31:21Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T16:31:22Z lalitmee quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T16:41:10Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-23T16:41:46Z clintm quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-23T16:47:33Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-23T16:48:38Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-23T16:53:01Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T16:56:31Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-23T16:56:56Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T16:59:17Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T16:59:17Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-23T17:01:34Z VincentVega: Hmm can I write my own reader macro that start with #+, e.g. #+my-reader or would it conflict with #+sbcl and such?
2021-01-23T17:02:34Z okflo` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T17:03:59Z pve: VincentVega: you can, and it would
2021-01-23T17:04:40Z VincentVega: I see. Is it because # is reserved, if I understand correctly?
2021-01-23T17:05:02Z VincentVega: well, not reserved, I guess
2021-01-23T17:05:06Z pve: not exactly
2021-01-23T17:05:34Z pve: VincentVega: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm
2021-01-23T17:06:35Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-23T17:07:07Z VincentVega: thanks, I think this clears things up a bit for me
2021-01-23T17:08:19Z pve: VincentVega: and you want to use set-dispatch-macro-character for those
2021-01-23T17:08:58Z phoe: VincentVega: basically: create your own readtable and adjust it in the way you want
2021-01-23T17:09:02Z phoe: named-readtables help a lot
2021-01-23T17:09:44Z VincentVega: Alright. Also, are read-tables file-scope only? Can I enable them projectwide?
2021-01-23T17:10:53Z phoe: named-readtables provides an in-readtable macro that you can use similarly to in-package at the top of the file
2021-01-23T17:11:50Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-23T17:11:52Z VincentVega: I see, OK.
2021-01-23T17:12:02Z VincentVega: Thanks for the explanations!
2021-01-23T17:12:40Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T17:13:00Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-23T17:13:27Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-23T17:14:51Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-23T17:17:28Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-23T17:18:18Z v_m_v joined #lisp
2021-01-23T17:19:08Z v_m_v quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T17:20:19Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-23T17:31:04Z flatheap quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T17:32:43Z rfn` joined #lisp
2021-01-23T17:32:45Z rfn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T17:33:26Z rfn` quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T17:39:49Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T17:40:54Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-23T17:56:42Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-23T18:00:49Z rgherdt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T18:01:07Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-23T18:05:03Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T18:06:45Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-23T18:07:00Z Achylles quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-23T18:15:07Z hvxgr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T18:17:16Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T18:17:24Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-23T18:18:13Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T18:25:48Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T18:38:56Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-23T18:39:13Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-23T18:40:52Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T18:41:38Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-23T18:47:34Z pfdietz: I definitely suggest using named-readtables.   Also, use readtable changes sparingly.
2021-01-23T18:52:55Z aeth: reader macros are good if (0) they're dispatch reader macros starting with # like #z; (1) the thing they work on is contained within parentheses like #z() such as #z(42) not #z42; and (2) they expand into a macro that does all of the actual processing
2021-01-23T18:53:52Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-23T18:54:07Z aeth: That is, if you wanted to have literal hash table syntax as #h(...) like some libraries do, have that turn into (hash ...) which actually does the logic. So #h(:foo 42 :bar 43) would just become (hash :foo 42 :bar 43) which in turn does MAKE-HASH-TABLE with the two PSETFs
2021-01-23T18:54:53Z aeth: But I never write reader macros because virtually all of the time when I start with the first step (writing the regular macro first) that's all I wind up wanting to use.
2021-01-23T18:56:20Z aeth: Also note that the example macro uses plists. Always use plists. They're so easy to process in macros because you can just use destructuring-bind to treat them as &key arguments, or you can iterate over the plists two at a time (key and value), depending on what you're doing.
2021-01-23T18:59:06Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-23T19:01:40Z aeth: (This is in addition to named-readtables)
2021-01-23T19:06:25Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-23T19:14:07Z flip214: aeth: even better, just use alexandria's (plist-hash-table ...) --- but you might need to specify the test to be used...
2021-01-23T19:15:27Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-23T19:25:30Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T19:26:14Z maier joined #lisp
2021-01-23T19:26:49Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T19:27:21Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T19:31:47Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T19:33:18Z charles`: Where can I find out more about how quicklisp updates packages?
2021-01-23T19:39:15Z nckx[2] joined #lisp
2021-01-23T19:39:19Z aeth: flip214: The way to specify settings (e.g. hash table test) in a macro like that is probably to have an optional options list at the front. So if the CAR of the body is a list, then it's options and the CDR is a plist tail, otherwise it's a key and the entire body is the plist
2021-01-23T19:39:19Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-23T19:41:03Z nckx[2] is now known as nckx
2021-01-23T19:47:38Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T19:49:00Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-23T19:49:36Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-23T19:49:49Z lucasb joined #lisp
2021-01-23T19:50:41Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-23T19:53:32Z maier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T19:54:34Z lucasb left #lisp
2021-01-23T19:56:52Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T20:00:02Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-23T20:03:14Z VincentVega: pfdietz: alright : )
2021-01-23T20:03:18Z VincentVega: aeth: Thanks for these extra bits of wisdom!
2021-01-23T20:08:38Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-23T20:09:37Z Walex is now known as bcachefs-newbie
2021-01-23T20:11:23Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-23T20:15:39Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T20:15:58Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T20:18:08Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T20:18:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T20:18:47Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T20:19:04Z josrr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T20:20:10Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-23T20:21:32Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-23T20:25:20Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-23T20:25:34Z frodef quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T20:33:25Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T20:35:31Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T20:35:34Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-23T20:42:49Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-23T20:57:45Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-23T20:58:01Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-23T21:01:00Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T21:02:50Z ggole quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T21:03:30Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T21:03:48Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T21:05:02Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-23T21:06:20Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-23T21:07:19Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-23T21:20:57Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T21:22:58Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-23T21:31:38Z Blukunfando quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T21:44:47Z gutter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T21:45:52Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-23T21:47:26Z reb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T21:47:32Z gutter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T21:50:04Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T21:50:07Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T21:51:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T21:55:34Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-23T21:57:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T21:58:13Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-23T21:58:40Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T21:59:23Z mathrick_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T21:59:28Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T22:00:36Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-23T22:06:13Z kenu joined #lisp
2021-01-23T22:09:25Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-23T22:09:29Z kenu quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T22:11:03Z frodef quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-23T22:11:27Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-23T22:14:07Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-23T22:14:12Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T22:18:46Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T22:22:16Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-23T22:24:42Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-23T22:24:48Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-23T22:29:13Z Codaraxis__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T22:33:50Z reb joined #lisp
2021-01-23T22:34:15Z reb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T22:35:00Z tyson2 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T22:36:49Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-23T22:37:23Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-23T22:37:44Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-23T22:44:57Z euandreh_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-23T22:48:06Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-23T22:51:04Z mathrick_ is now known as mathrick
2021-01-23T22:53:02Z tassleoff quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T22:53:13Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-23T23:02:02Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-23T23:02:52Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T23:03:11Z torbo joined #lisp
2021-01-23T23:05:21Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-23T23:06:34Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-23T23:07:12Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-23T23:07:23Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-23T23:07:49Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-23T23:08:01Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-23T23:14:28Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-23T23:20:33Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-23T23:23:27Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T23:26:07Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T23:26:35Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-23T23:29:44Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T23:29:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T23:30:16Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T23:38:45Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T23:39:31Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T23:41:31Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T23:43:21Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-23T23:50:08Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-23T23:50:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-23T23:50:36Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-23T23:52:19Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-23T23:55:57Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-23T23:57:43Z tyson2 left #lisp
2021-01-23T23:57:52Z flatheap joined #lisp
2021-01-24T00:03:45Z npfaro joined #lisp
2021-01-24T00:03:46Z npfaro: hi
2021-01-24T00:04:34Z npfaro: I have a list with this in it: '(13 "ERROR 13, 5621064")
2021-01-24T00:05:06Z npfaro: When I write it to a file with `with-standard-io-syntax` and `prin1`, it comes out like this: (13 #A((17) BASE-CHAR . "ERROR 13, 5621064"))
2021-01-24T00:05:10Z npfaro: why would this be
2021-01-24T00:06:06Z npfaro: Here's the expression which evaluates to create the '(13 "ERROR 13, xxxx) list: (list (format nil "ERROR ~a, ~a" (car x) (cdr x)))
2021-01-24T00:06:26Z npfaro: x is pair of numbers
2021-01-24T00:06:41Z pfdietz: This is in SBCL?
2021-01-24T00:06:44Z npfaro: yeah
2021-01-24T00:07:42Z pfdietz: SBCL's read table has an option for converting strings (on reading) to base strings, if all the characters are base chars.   I am wondering if the standard io syntax has that bit set.  If not, then to print readably it has to use that weird syntax.
2021-01-24T00:08:15Z npfaro: strange, all those characters should be readable as is
2021-01-24T00:09:06Z pfdietz: But if you read them and the bit is not set, you should get a string (with element-type CHARACTER) not a base-string (with element-type BASE-CHAR).
2021-01-24T00:09:07Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T00:10:26Z pfdietz: Check if the string is of type (array base-char (*)), or of type (array character (*)).
2021-01-24T00:10:49Z npfaro: CL-USER> (with-standard-io-syntax (prin1 (format nil "ERROR ~a, ~a" 0 0)))
2021-01-24T00:10:49Z npfaro: #A((10) BASE-CHAR . "ERROR 0, 0")
2021-01-24T00:10:49Z npfaro: "ERROR 0, 0"
2021-01-24T00:10:49Z npfaro: CL-USER> (with-standard-io-syntax (prin1 "ERROR 0, 0"))
2021-01-24T00:10:54Z npfaro: "ERROR 0, 0"
2021-01-24T00:10:57Z npfaro: "ERROR 0, 0"
2021-01-24T00:10:57Z npfaro:  
2021-01-24T00:11:00Z npfaro: Check this out
2021-01-24T00:11:06Z npfaro: the issue seems to be with format
2021-01-24T00:11:12Z pfdietz: So format is producing a base string, when possible.
2021-01-24T00:11:59Z npfaro: CL-USER> (type-of (format nil ""))
2021-01-24T00:11:59Z npfaro: (SIMPLE-BASE-STRING 0)
2021-01-24T00:12:00Z npfaro: CL-USER> (type-of "")
2021-01-24T00:12:00Z npfaro: (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (0))
2021-01-24T00:12:03Z npfaro:  
2021-01-24T00:12:07Z npfaro: Yep
2021-01-24T00:12:30Z pfdietz: The question now is why is format doing that for you (it's not doing it for me).
2021-01-24T00:12:53Z npfaro: I haven't messed with any dynamic vars that would control that
2021-01-24T00:12:57Z pfdietz: What version sbcl are you using?
2021-01-24T00:13:00Z npfaro: 2.0.0
2021-01-24T00:13:08Z pfdietz: That's kind of old.
2021-01-24T00:13:22Z npfaro: They haven't put out a newer build for windows
2021-01-24T00:13:27Z pfdietz: Ah
2021-01-24T00:13:55Z pfdietz: What is your *features* ?
2021-01-24T00:14:07Z npfaro: (:BORDEAUX-THREADS CFFI-FEATURES:FLAT-NAMESPACE CFFI-FEATURES:X86-64
2021-01-24T00:14:07Z npfaro:  CFFI-FEATURES:WINDOWS :CFFI CFFI-SYS::FLAT-NAMESPACE :WINDOWS
2021-01-24T00:14:07Z npfaro:  ALEXANDRIA.0.DEV::SEQUENCE-EMPTYP :SPLIT-SEQUENCE :CL-PPCRE :FLEXI-STREAMS
2021-01-24T00:14:07Z npfaro:  :CHUNGA :THREAD-SUPPORT CHIPZ-SYSTEM:GRAY-STREAMS :CL-JSON-CLOS :CL-JSON
2021-01-24T00:14:10Z npfaro:  :SWANK :QUICKLISP :ASDF3.3 :ASDF3.2 :ASDF3.1 :ASDF3 :ASDF2 :ASDF :OS-WINDOWS
2021-01-24T00:14:12Z npfaro:  :NON-BASE-CHARS-EXIST-P :ASDF-UNICODE :X86-64 :64-BIT :ALIEN-CALLBACKS
2021-01-24T00:14:15Z npfaro:  :ANSI-CL :AVX2 :C-STACK-IS-CONTROL-STACK :CALL-SYMBOL :COMMON-LISP
2021-01-24T00:14:19Z npfaro:  :COMPARE-AND-SWAP-VOPS :CYCLE-COUNTER :FP-AND-PC-STANDARD-SAVE :GENCGC
2021-01-24T00:14:22Z npfaro:  :IEEE-FLOATING-POINT :INTEGER-EQL-VOP :LINKAGE-TABLE :LITTLE-ENDIAN
2021-01-24T00:14:27Z npfaro:  :OS-PROVIDES-DLOPEN :OS-PROVIDES-PUTWC :PACKAGE-LOCAL-NICKNAMES :SB-DOC
2021-01-24T00:14:28Z npfaro:  :SB-DYNAMIC-CORE :SB-EVAL :SB-FUTEX ...)
2021-01-24T00:14:30Z npfaro: bleh sorry for that
2021-01-24T00:14:50Z pfdietz: Is :sb-unicode in there?
2021-01-24T00:14:52Z Bike: is printing that way posing a problem for you?
2021-01-24T00:15:31Z npfaro: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2252#2252
2021-01-24T00:15:46Z npfaro: yeah it's in there
2021-01-24T00:16:02Z npfaro: @bike it's not ideal i guess
2021-01-24T00:16:42Z npfaro: brb
2021-01-24T00:18:14Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T00:18:17Z Bike: prin1 prints readably, so it goes through extra effort to prefer stuff like element type that a human reader wouldn't so much care about
2021-01-24T00:18:20Z pfdietz: You could bind *print-readably* to nil inside the with-standard-io-syntax.   Failing that, you could play with pprint dispatch tables to make it do something differently on strings.
2021-01-24T00:18:28Z Bike: it should work as input for cl:read still (in sbcl)
2021-01-24T00:18:40Z Bike: s/prefer/preserve/
2021-01-24T00:18:41Z pfdietz: Oh right, prin1 binds that.
2021-01-24T00:19:30Z Bike: i mean, conceptually if you're using standard io syntax and prin1, you presumably are printing something with the aim of reading it back later
2021-01-24T00:19:38Z Bike: so what it actually looks like to a human reader isn't too important
2021-01-24T00:22:27Z flatheap quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-24T00:23:33Z flatheap joined #lisp
2021-01-24T00:24:07Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T00:30:40Z euandreh_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T00:32:53Z flatheap quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-24T00:33:42Z SAL9000 quit (Quit: maintenance)
2021-01-24T00:34:01Z flatheap joined #lisp
2021-01-24T00:36:51Z npfaro: back
2021-01-24T00:37:59Z rtypo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T00:38:04Z npfaro: that's fair enough, although I intended to dump a form out to a file so that I (and potentially others) could edit it as they please, and then load it back in again
2021-01-24T00:38:07Z npfaro: Same sort of idea as a CSV file
2021-01-24T00:38:17Z npfaro: so having reader gunk in there is not ideal
2021-01-24T00:38:37Z SAL9000 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T00:50:34Z Alfr_: npfaro, you could resort to coercing format's result to a (simple-array character (*)) .
2021-01-24T00:50:36Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T00:50:53Z npfaro: hmm, alright. i wonder why my format is doing that though in the first place
2021-01-24T00:51:15Z npfaro: seems kinda like a hack to have to coerce it
2021-01-24T00:51:49Z Alfr_: npfaro, mine does that too for sbcl-2.0.11.
2021-01-24T00:52:39Z npfaro: Just tried it, coercing works. but i wish there was a better way
2021-01-24T00:53:16Z Alfr_: npfaro, prin1 may output anything it likes, as long as it can be read back to recreate something similar to what was printed.
2021-01-24T00:54:10Z Alfr_: npfaro, there's no guarantee that it's human read/editable, I think.
2021-01-24T00:54:32Z npfaro: Is there a different function that would be better suited
2021-01-24T00:56:08Z Alfr_: I don't know.
2021-01-24T01:00:07Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T01:01:09Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-24T01:08:34Z ikrabbe joined #lisp
2021-01-24T01:11:16Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T01:14:33Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T01:18:33Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-24T01:20:56Z npfaro: I have something like (loop for x in ls when (not (member x other-ls)) for y = (car x) do ...) but I'm getting an error
2021-01-24T01:21:09Z npfaro: FOR does not introduce a LOOP clause that can follow WHEN.
2021-01-24T01:21:19Z npfaro: any ideas on the correct way to do this
2021-01-24T01:22:36Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T01:25:54Z charles`: do (when (not (member x other-ls))
2021-01-24T01:25:56Z charles`: ?
2021-01-24T01:26:18Z charles`: oh you want the for to be conditional
2021-01-24T01:26:18Z npfaro: Actually my example was a little incorrect, that should be `collect` instead of do
2021-01-24T01:26:21Z npfaro: so I don't wanna collect nils
2021-01-24T01:30:00Z charles`: remove-if #'null?
2021-01-24T01:31:42Z npfaro: meh
2021-01-24T01:31:52Z npfaro: thanks for the ideas though
2021-01-24T01:42:44Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-24T01:46:22Z npfaro quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T01:59:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T02:01:50Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T02:05:46Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-24T02:10:12Z aeth: use three variables, where one says whether y is active or not
2021-01-24T02:22:01Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T02:30:24Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T02:30:58Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-24T02:31:33Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T02:32:06Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-24T02:32:27Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-24T02:39:05Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-24T02:44:04Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T02:48:35Z npfaro joined #lisp
2021-01-24T02:53:40Z logand`` joined #lisp
2021-01-24T02:54:48Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-24T02:57:05Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T03:00:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T03:05:54Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-24T03:14:06Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-24T03:15:09Z dbotton quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-24T03:20:22Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T03:22:16Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T03:23:36Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T03:25:02Z gjulio joined #lisp
2021-01-24T03:28:36Z npfaro: Once the slime debugger has opened up with the restarts, how do i evaluate forms
2021-01-24T03:29:32Z npfaro: Ah it's e
2021-01-24T03:30:25Z npfaro: wow
2021-01-24T03:30:30Z npfaro: very nice
2021-01-24T03:59:12Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-24T04:00:32Z White_Flame: npfaro: to avoid collecting NILs, (loop for ...  when (car x) collect (car x))
2021-01-24T04:01:07Z npfaro: Yeah, the issue is that I have another `for` clause in the loop that uses one of the previous values, and that value cannot be nil
2021-01-24T04:01:34Z White_Flame: yeah, as said above, you cannot conditionally FOR; that's a separate issue
2021-01-24T04:01:42Z White_Flame: maybe you should post your full example, or something pared down
2021-01-24T04:01:54Z npfaro: I actually got to the root of the issue by using conditions and restarts
2021-01-24T04:02:02Z npfaro: so it's no biggie now
2021-01-24T04:02:05Z White_Flame: uh... that's probably not the right way
2021-01-24T04:02:52Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-24T04:02:53Z npfaro: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2253#2253
2021-01-24T04:03:17Z npfaro: or actually i really didn't, now that i'm coming back to it. i'm just looping over a remove-if
2021-01-24T04:03:18Z npfaro: sorry
2021-01-24T04:03:58Z White_Flame: ah, so you're not using the restarts to get around the LOOP iteration, that's okay
2021-01-24T04:04:45Z White_Flame: you could use ignore-errors, which will return NIL for you on error, but adding the debugging FORMAT might be a bit more verbose
2021-01-24T04:04:50Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T04:05:04Z White_Flame made on-error, with-error etc macros, maybe alexandria has the same?
2021-01-24T04:05:16Z npfaro: you made them?
2021-01-24T04:05:23Z npfaro: oh, ok
2021-01-24T04:06:51Z npfaro: Is there anyting analogous to a named let in scheme, other than using flet or labels and calling it?
2021-01-24T04:08:00Z White_Flame: what does a named let do ther?
2021-01-24T04:09:04Z npfaro: (let loop ((a 10)) (if (> a 0) (loop (sub1 a)) 0)) would loop iterating from 10 to 0
2021-01-24T04:09:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-24T04:09:17Z npfaro: morning beach
2021-01-24T04:09:28Z White_Flame: well, obviously LOOP or DOTIMES would meet that particular case
2021-01-24T04:09:47Z White_Flame: I think the generic DO construct is probably equivalent?
2021-01-24T04:09:48Z npfaro: not exactly, because you can call the named let with whatever parameters you want just like a recurisve function
2021-01-24T04:09:48Z White_Flame: clhs DO
2021-01-24T04:09:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_do_do.htm
2021-01-24T04:10:40Z White_Flame: hmm, so (defun my-loop (&optional (a 10)) (if (> a 0) ...)) is equivalent?
2021-01-24T04:10:43Z npfaro: do isn't exactly as powerful because you have to define a step form for each var instead of being able to specify it in the body
2021-01-24T04:10:52Z White_Flame: (my-loop) would be equivalent to (my-loop 10)
2021-01-24T04:10:57Z npfaro: correcto
2021-01-24T04:11:07Z npfaro: But in scheme you commonly use these constructs inline
2021-01-24T04:11:13Z npfaro: in a function somewhere
2021-01-24T04:11:22Z White_Flame: right, that'd be a pretty easy macro to write
2021-01-24T04:11:29Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-24T04:11:32Z npfaro: so you'd say just macro it up then
2021-01-24T04:11:45Z npfaro: was curious if there was a more accepted style
2021-01-24T04:12:29Z White_Flame: which would expand to (labels ((my-loop (&optional (a 10)) ...)) (my-loop))
2021-01-24T04:13:00Z White_Flame: having a specific entry point wiht initializers seems to be the more accepted style than reusing it for the inner loop
2021-01-24T04:13:36Z White_Flame: my preferred style would be:
2021-01-24T04:13:45Z White_Flame: (labels ((my-loop (a) ...)) (my-loop 10))
2021-01-24T04:13:53Z npfaro: ok, looks good
2021-01-24T04:13:56Z npfaro: thanks!
2021-01-24T04:14:59Z White_Flame: and again, if you don't like the boilerplate, macro it down :)
2021-01-24T04:15:10Z npfaro: nah, that's fine, thanks for the tip
2021-01-24T04:15:55Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-24T04:16:01Z White_Flame: at least in SBCL, self-recursive functions compile down to the proper set as needed & jump code
2021-01-24T04:16:01Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-24T04:16:13Z White_Flame: *set-as-needed & jump
2021-01-24T04:18:19Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T04:27:49Z npfaro: i'm a schemer at heart so i do like recursive functions
2021-01-24T04:28:00Z npfaro: more like a racketer really
2021-01-24T04:28:00Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.
2021-01-24T04:30:15Z npfaro: thanks
2021-01-24T04:32:05Z beach: I have seen so many programs become incomprehensible by someone insisting on using tail recursion rather than iteration.
2021-01-24T04:33:41Z npfaro: it's just so powerful
2021-01-24T04:34:56Z beach: Also, it is usually a bad idea to use idioms from a different language.  That goes for programming languages and natural languages alike.
2021-01-24T04:35:12Z npfaro: yeah that's why i asked here
2021-01-24T04:36:16Z beach: I say, use recursion when recursion is pretty much the only solution, like on trees and graphs.  For linear structures like sequences, iteration is usually preferable.
2021-01-24T04:36:51Z beach: There are some exceptions to that "rule", but not many.
2021-01-24T04:39:07Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-24T04:41:39Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-24T04:50:28Z White_Flame: npfaro: I use tail calls a lot, and tend to use self-recursion whenever it goes beyond simple LOOP usage
2021-01-24T04:51:34Z White_Flame: but usually because I'm chasing optimization unnecessarily ;)
2021-01-24T05:05:56Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-24T05:16:08Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T05:17:52Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-24T05:21:54Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-24T05:22:02Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T05:24:19Z azrazalea quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.2+deb2~bpo8+1 - http://znc.in)
2021-01-24T05:28:20Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-24T05:32:53Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-24T05:35:28Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T05:38:05Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-24T05:44:23Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-24T05:54:34Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T05:54:39Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-24T05:54:45Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-24T05:57:51Z azrazalea joined #lisp
2021-01-24T06:09:31Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T06:10:10Z azrazalea quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.2+deb2~bpo8+1 - http://znc.in)
2021-01-24T06:11:52Z azrazalea joined #lisp
2021-01-24T06:14:04Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T06:45:19Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T06:46:23Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T06:48:05Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-24T06:50:05Z Codaraxis__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T06:52:22Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T06:53:42Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp
2021-01-24T06:57:27Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-24T07:20:37Z Nikotiini joined #lisp
2021-01-24T07:25:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T07:26:53Z maier joined #lisp
2021-01-24T07:29:46Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T07:30:21Z ikrabbe joined #lisp
2021-01-24T07:30:33Z blackadder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-24T07:47:51Z easye quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T07:48:22Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T07:53:01Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-24T07:53:29Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-24T08:02:45Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T08:02:58Z cods joined #lisp
2021-01-24T08:02:58Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T08:04:07Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-24T08:15:05Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-24T08:15:24Z mindCrime_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T08:18:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: tail-recursion, to me, is a bit like REDUCE: it's great when needed, but it's usually better to use it to make intermediate-level abstractions
2021-01-24T08:18:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then use those abstractions
2021-01-24T08:18:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. I could use REDUCE to do what MAPCAR does, but MAPCAR is less noisy and expresses my intent more clearly
2021-01-24T08:20:49Z totoro2022 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T08:20:57Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T08:21:41Z npfaro: tail recursion and a pattern matcher are a "match" made in heaven when it comes to parsing lists
2021-01-24T08:22:59Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-24T08:23:02Z totoro2021 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T08:23:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd rather use parser-combinators or similar
2021-01-24T08:23:50Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T08:24:05Z npfaro: prolog and DCGs are the king
2021-01-24T08:25:31Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T08:36:11Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-24T08:44:18Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-24T08:44:19Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-24T08:44:19Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-24T08:44:38Z maier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-24T08:47:48Z maier joined #lisp
2021-01-24T08:49:03Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-24T09:00:04Z infra_red[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-24T09:04:02Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T09:05:46Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:07:01Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:09:04Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-24T09:09:50Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:09:57Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T09:11:16Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:18:26Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:20:35Z beach` joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:21:25Z beach quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-24T09:21:32Z beach` is now known as beach
2021-01-24T09:22:29Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T09:27:50Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:30:32Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:30:36Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T09:30:53Z npfaro: is there any way to do a nested loop in a single `loop` form or do you have to do (loop for x do (loop for y do))
2021-01-24T09:31:29Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:31:47Z beach: The latter.
2021-01-24T09:32:16Z npfaro: ok.
2021-01-24T09:32:41Z imode quit (Quit: https://youtu.be/t74W7UjXbYQ?t=23)
2021-01-24T09:38:27Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-24T09:38:39Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-24T09:39:12Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:39:13Z npfaro: Is there a method to intersperse a value into a list between each existing value?
2021-01-24T09:40:49Z pranavats: npfaro: Serapeum utility library has a function named intersperse.
2021-01-24T09:41:20Z beach: (cder (loop for x in list collect 234 collect x))
2021-01-24T09:41:24Z beach: er, cdr
2021-01-24T09:41:59Z npfaro: oh wow that's cool
2021-01-24T09:42:49Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:43:07Z beach: Thanks!
2021-01-24T09:49:38Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:49:39Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-24T09:49:39Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:50:49Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:52:23Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:55:45Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-24T09:57:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T09:57:33Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T09:58:14Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T10:01:14Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T10:07:34Z ikrabbe quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/)
2021-01-24T10:22:02Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-24T10:31:10Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-24T10:31:59Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T10:32:32Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-24T10:36:30Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-24T10:38:16Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T10:39:42Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T10:39:45Z Codaraxis_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T10:54:28Z tinga quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-24T11:00:06Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-24T11:10:52Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:13:41Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:14:05Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T11:21:04Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:25:04Z frgo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T11:25:31Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:25:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:25:56Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:28:56Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:29:25Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:30:53Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T11:31:18Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:31:38Z daphnis: did something change about the way one should load the code from Practical CL?  i tried putting the practicals-... directory into asdf:*central-registry* and doing   (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :practicals)
2021-01-24T11:32:12Z daphnis: but get :binary-data not found
2021-01-24T11:33:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:33:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-24T11:33:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:33:22Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T11:41:23Z maier quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T11:42:21Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:44:05Z maier joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:44:46Z maier quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-24T11:51:10Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-24T11:57:45Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T11:59:30Z npfaro quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T12:07:45Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp
2021-01-24T12:08:12Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-24T12:10:00Z JuanDaugherty quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-24T12:10:25Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp
2021-01-24T12:10:26Z JuanDaugherty quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T12:20:08Z luis joined #lisp
2021-01-24T12:29:05Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T12:29:12Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-24T12:30:46Z phoe: https://github.com/Apress/practical-common-lisp/blob/339dbf0224db6b3b23fd69b336c21625ca9142be/practicals/Chapter24/binary-data.asd
2021-01-24T12:30:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T12:30:51Z phoe: the system certainly exists there
2021-01-24T12:30:51Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-24T12:31:05Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T12:36:09Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-24T12:39:11Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T12:39:17Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-24T12:39:57Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-24T12:40:03Z daphnis: phoe: yeah, it's just that the method suggested in the readme doesn't seem to work very well.  but someone on so suggested putting it into quicklisp/local-projects/.   that still doesn't work with everything at once, but at least i was able to load the package i needed.
2021-01-24T12:48:28Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-24T12:49:42Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-24T13:12:23Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-24T13:16:45Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-24T13:17:38Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-24T13:17:53Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-24T13:23:55Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-24T13:25:16Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T13:28:00Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T13:28:54Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T13:30:06Z logand`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T13:30:25Z logand` joined #lisp
2021-01-24T13:35:57Z beach: daphnis: For the local-projects directory, you need to execute (ql:register-local-projects) once for it to be found.
2021-01-24T13:37:00Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-24T13:38:49Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T13:38:56Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-24T13:39:07Z logand``` joined #lisp
2021-01-24T13:46:41Z gutter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T13:48:28Z logand``` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T13:52:33Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T13:57:26Z Xach: beach: not necessarily.
2021-01-24T13:57:46Z Xach: that is, you do not necessarily need to run it manually; it runs automatically in some circumstances.
2021-01-24T14:00:08Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:02:21Z beach: Oh?  I didn't know that.
2021-01-24T14:03:02Z xanderle_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-24T14:05:24Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:05:34Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:06:22Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-24T14:07:23Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T14:14:57Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T14:15:26Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:15:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T14:16:02Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:22:46Z chkhd joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:22:47Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T14:23:25Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:25:22Z chkhd quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-24T14:28:39Z heisig: Unfortunately, the automatic updating of local projects fails when the contents of ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ are symlinks.
2021-01-24T14:28:50Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:28:56Z heisig: Or is there a trick to make that work?
2021-01-24T14:29:47Z gjulio joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:32:50Z beach: That must be why I always have to do it manually then.
2021-01-24T14:35:36Z mfiano: heisig: It's not that it's a symlink, there's a max depth for discovering systems automatically without ql:register-local-projects.
2021-01-24T14:36:33Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:39:17Z Xach: here is how it works. if the timestamp on the directory is newer than the timestamp of system-index.txt, it is scanned automatically and system-index.txt updated.
2021-01-24T14:39:22Z Xach: that's it.
2021-01-24T14:39:44Z Xach: so anything that updates the timestamp of the directory will trigger an automatic registry. that includes symlinking or making directories or touching it via touch.
2021-01-24T14:39:48Z mfiano: Right
2021-01-24T14:39:54Z mfiano: As per the comments:
2021-01-24T14:39:56Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T14:39:58Z mfiano: > It will NOT pick up a system file that is added sometime later in a subdirectory
2021-01-24T14:40:23Z mfiano: Not without a full tree treaversal by modification of the timestamp
2021-01-24T14:41:11Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:42:27Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:42:38Z dra joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:42:41Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T14:42:42Z andreyorst_ is now known as andreyorst
2021-01-24T14:45:06Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T14:45:29Z heisig: I see, thanks.  Maybe I should add (ql:register-local-projects) to some git hook instead.
2021-01-24T14:45:38Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-24T14:46:47Z _death: could touch a directory in a git hook
2021-01-24T14:48:07Z mfiano: I do just that, as it has bitten me enough times.
2021-01-24T14:48:50Z mfiano: I also constantly touch the asd file I'm working with along with setting ql:*quickload-verbose* in my init file, as only the remainder of the modules that were modified will be recompiled by ASDF
2021-01-24T14:51:28Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T14:57:42Z dra quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-24T14:58:12Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-24T14:59:16Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:00:04Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:00:25Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:05:04Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:09:31Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:16:16Z gjulio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:16:54Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:17:37Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:19:17Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:21:34Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T15:22:25Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:22:35Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:26:10Z mmkarakaya joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:27:18Z gjulio joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:30:00Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:31:23Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:38:56Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:40:16Z xanderle quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-24T15:41:09Z gjulio quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-24T15:41:20Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:48:54Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:50:46Z xanderle_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:51:56Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:53:30Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:53:37Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:56:48Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:58:12Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:58:38Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-24T15:59:47Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:59:48Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-24T15:59:59Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:04:06Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:04:17Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T16:07:31Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:07:40Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:08:45Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T16:12:24Z nij left #lisp
2021-01-24T16:14:30Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T16:14:39Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T16:15:54Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:15:58Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:16:42Z Codaraxis__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T16:21:00Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:23:00Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T16:26:36Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:27:16Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T16:27:45Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:30:44Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:37:10Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T16:38:06Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:40:02Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:41:46Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:44:34Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-24T16:45:06Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T16:46:14Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T16:46:51Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:47:14Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:49:19Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:52:20Z kenu joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:53:58Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T16:54:28Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:56:26Z ogamita joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:57:15Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-24T16:57:21Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T16:57:57Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T16:59:36Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T17:00:49Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-24T17:01:33Z dra joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:06:25Z orivej_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:06:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T17:08:41Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:09:11Z nij: How to format a time string so it can return "...-06:00", where -6 is my time zone?   https://bpa.st/DQS2S
2021-01-24T17:11:50Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:15:47Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:16:18Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T17:17:17Z mfiano: local-time:format-timestring
2021-01-24T17:17:30Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T17:18:55Z shinohai: Will it convert seconds to microwave time?
2021-01-24T17:18:58Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:20:27Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T17:20:29Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:21:21Z ogamita: nij: https://termbin.com/2zqe
2021-01-24T17:25:27Z ogamita: nij: sorry, the correct answer is: https://termbin.com/ieai
2021-01-24T17:25:53Z ogamita: There are a few time zone that are not aligned on hours…
2021-01-24T17:26:13Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:26:56Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-24T17:27:16Z nij: Hmm lemme try to understand it.
2021-01-24T17:29:42Z ogamita: nij: the first problem is that when you use ~w@d the sign is placed on the right of the filler character.  It wors nicely when it's space, but if you use ~3,'0@d,  you get 0-1  instead of -01.  So you need to process the sign separately first.
2021-01-24T17:30:06Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:30:12Z nij: What is the truncate doing in the second multiple-value-bind?
2021-01-24T17:30:16Z flatheap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T17:30:27Z ogamita: The second part is that the tz can be a fraction such as -9/2 for Afganistant (-04:30).
2021-01-24T17:30:30Z flatheap joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:30:41Z ogamita: So this truncate separates the hours from the minutes in the time zone.
2021-01-24T17:30:46Z nij: OH!!! I see.
2021-01-24T17:30:55Z nij: I didn't see a problem cuz by time zone is aligned.
2021-01-24T17:30:55Z ogamita: Then the minutes can be a fraction such as 1/2.
2021-01-24T17:31:15Z ogamita: You need to read the clhs to take care of all the cases.
2021-01-24T17:33:55Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T17:34:05Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-24T17:34:40Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:34:43Z nij: and the ~:[-~;+~] formatter.. nice!
2021-01-24T17:34:45Z nij: Thanks :D
2021-01-24T17:35:30Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:35:59Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T17:36:12Z ogamita: it's for booleans and small ints:(format nil "~{~[zero~;one~;two~;fizz~:;what?~]~^ ~}" '(0 1 2 3 4)) #| --> "zero one two fizz what?" |#
2021-01-24T17:36:32Z nij: Right :) very neat.
2021-01-24T17:37:00Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:40:01Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T17:40:39Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-24T17:42:42Z flatheap quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T17:43:29Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:45:06Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T17:45:12Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T17:45:20Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:45:47Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T17:46:26Z ogamita quit (Quit: later)
2021-01-24T17:49:59Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:50:10Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-24T17:52:32Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-24T17:54:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:54:58Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:57:38Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T17:58:11Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:59:15Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-24T17:59:58Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:02:05Z flatheap joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:02:06Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:05:30Z nij: --------
2021-01-24T18:05:31Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T18:05:38Z nij: Hmm.. somehow #\Newline doesn't work for me.
2021-01-24T18:05:49Z nij: Now I have a very bad solution.. which is
2021-01-24T18:06:05Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T18:06:14Z nij: to define constant variable that contains the newline character:
2021-01-24T18:06:18Z nij: (defconstant adhoc/newline
2021-01-24T18:06:18Z nij:   "
2021-01-24T18:06:18Z nij: ")
2021-01-24T18:06:26Z nij: But, as you can see, it is very ugly..
2021-01-24T18:07:43Z Alfr: nij, what do you want to do? Also remember #\newline gives you exactly one char, which may not be what you want on some OS.
2021-01-24T18:08:57Z mfiano: Why would you want a 1-length string over a character?
2021-01-24T18:09:20Z mfiano: In any case, (make-string 1 :initial-element #\newline)
2021-01-24T18:09:39Z ck_: maybe some carriages need to be returned as well
2021-01-24T18:10:12Z nij: Oh I see..
2021-01-24T18:11:32Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:11:51Z nij: This is what I want to do: https://bpa.st/WUEDU . Hopefully it's self-explanatory.
2021-01-24T18:12:04Z nij: mfiano: your tip does solve my problem :)
2021-01-24T18:12:41Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:12:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T18:12:52Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:14:23Z mfiano: My tip is to not use a string if you don't need one
2021-01-24T18:14:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T18:15:00Z mfiano: In this case, just use #'format. That code is overly complex
2021-01-24T18:15:22Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-24T18:15:27Z nij: I see.
2021-01-24T18:15:39Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:15:47Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:16:05Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:19:41Z andreyor1 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:19:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T18:20:00Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:23:00Z aorst quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T18:23:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T18:23:08Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:27:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T18:28:10Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:30:52Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-24T18:31:45Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T18:32:28Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:33:33Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:33:52Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T18:35:56Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:40:16Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T18:40:49Z phadthai joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:42:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T18:42:25Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:44:20Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-24T18:44:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T18:44:58Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:45:49Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:46:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T18:47:06Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:49:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T18:49:46Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:50:10Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:50:21Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:50:24Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T18:50:42Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-24T18:52:40Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-24T18:53:06Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:55:46Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T18:55:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T18:56:52Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:57:44Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T18:58:48Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T18:59:10Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-24T18:59:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T18:59:59Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:00:41Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:03:19Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:05:30Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:06:09Z andreyor1 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T19:08:14Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-24T19:08:29Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:11:35Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-24T19:12:03Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:12:13Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:13:00Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T19:13:44Z _death: huh.. apparently slime-cl-indent is not perfect :d
2021-01-24T19:13:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T19:15:35Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:16:28Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T19:16:35Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:17:31Z _death: I defined an event-case macro with arglist of (&body clauses) in a simple-graphics package, which also has a nickname sg.. but (sg:event-case ...) indentation was off.. it turns out that clx also defines an event-case operator, and the indentation comes from that one.. slime-cl-indent stores the correct indentation rule for my event-case, except it only has simple-graphics as package and not its nickname.. I guess it's time to patch it
2021-01-24T19:20:39Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:22:46Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:23:56Z ealfonso joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:24:15Z ealfonso: does anyone know why this hangs for longer than 5 seconds? (drakma:http-request "https://health.usnews.com/doctors/carolyn-connelly-544761" :connection-timeout 5)
2021-01-24T19:25:03Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:26:04Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-24T19:26:33Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:26:35Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T19:28:36Z phireh joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:31:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T19:31:52Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:33:52Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-24T19:33:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T19:34:14Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:36:45Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:37:03Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:37:51Z ealfonso: is lisp dying?
2021-01-24T19:39:21Z iskander quit (Quit: bye)
2021-01-24T19:39:38Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T19:39:41Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:40:33Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-24T19:40:37Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T19:40:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:40:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T19:41:13Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:42:10Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:42:15Z phoe: ealfonso: huh?
2021-01-24T19:43:03Z phoe: hm, it hangs for me too
2021-01-24T19:43:47Z phoe: likely because connection-timeout is only effective before the connection is established
2021-01-24T19:43:55Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T19:44:05Z phoe: the backtrace shows me that it is trying to read a byte, which means that the connection was already established...
2021-01-24T19:44:26Z phoe: hmmm
2021-01-24T19:44:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:45:22Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:45:23Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:45:52Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-24T19:46:16Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T19:46:37Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T19:47:50Z phoe: I see you've already made a github issue
2021-01-24T19:49:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:49:28Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-24T19:49:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:49:34Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-24T19:49:48Z aorst is now known as andfeyorst[m]
2021-01-24T19:49:51Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:50:50Z kenu quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T19:50:57Z andfeyorst[m] is now known as andreyorst[m]
2021-01-24T19:51:32Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:52:10Z theothornhill: I'm having some trouble with quicklisp on M1 Mac. Is it known that some libraries don't seem to download on it?
2021-01-24T19:52:28Z theothornhill: (ql:quickload :drakma) hangs for me in sly and slime repl
2021-01-24T19:52:46Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-24T19:52:48Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-24T19:52:52Z theothornhill: Same with (ql:quickload :hunchentoot)
2021-01-24T19:55:06Z theothornhill left #lisp
2021-01-24T19:55:40Z phoe: annnnd he's gone
2021-01-24T19:55:48Z phoe: wish you'd stayed around for the answer, theothornhill
2021-01-24T19:57:32Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-24T19:58:32Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:00:37Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T20:01:06Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:01:16Z dra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T20:01:28Z asarch: In Emacs, how do you insert all the necessary )'s to close the expression? E.g. (foo (bar (smap (baz (if (when (cond ... <- Is there a key shortcut for this?
2021-01-24T20:01:35Z McParen joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:01:55Z _death: C-c C-]
2021-01-24T20:01:57Z theothornhill: phoe: dc'd, sorry :P
2021-01-24T20:02:04Z asarch: Thank you _death!
2021-01-24T20:02:10Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-)
2021-01-24T20:02:20Z phoe: theothornhill: could you C-c C-c and provide a backtrace?
2021-01-24T20:02:47Z _death: asarch: if in the REPL, you can C-RET
2021-01-24T20:02:54Z theothornhill: I don't get a backtrace with C-c C-c unfortunately
2021-01-24T20:03:10Z asarch: Thank you guys
2021-01-24T20:03:11Z phoe: oh, it's completely hung? huh
2021-01-24T20:03:11Z asarch: :-)
2021-01-24T20:03:17Z theothornhill: Yep
2021-01-24T20:03:24Z phoe: what if you try to do the same from the terminal and then try C-c?
2021-01-24T20:03:28Z theothornhill: However, (ql:quickload :spinneret) worked fine
2021-01-24T20:03:29Z phoe: does *inferior-lisp* tell you anything?
2021-01-24T20:03:35Z theothornhill: I'll try
2021-01-24T20:04:22Z theothornhill: * (ql:quickload :drakma)
2021-01-24T20:04:22Z theothornhill: To load "drakma":
2021-01-24T20:04:22Z theothornhill:   Load 1 ASDF system:
2021-01-24T20:04:23Z theothornhill:     drakma
2021-01-24T20:04:26Z theothornhill: ; Loading "drakma"
2021-01-24T20:04:29Z theothornhill: ....WARNING: /usr/local/Cellar/sbcl/2.0.11/libexec/bin/sbcl is loading libcrypto in an unsafe way
2021-01-24T20:04:31Z theothornhill: fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 52693 pthread 0x10465de00:
2021-01-24T20:04:34Z theothornhill: SIGABRT received.
2021-01-24T20:04:37Z theothornhill:  
2021-01-24T20:04:38Z phoe: theothornhill: oh noooo please use pastebins
2021-01-24T20:04:41Z theothornhill: Welcome to LDB, a low-level debugger for the Lisp runtime environment.
2021-01-24T20:04:47Z theothornhill: something about libcrypto
2021-01-24T20:04:51Z theothornhill: hehe sry
2021-01-24T20:04:52Z theothornhill: sec
2021-01-24T20:04:52Z phoe: yes, I know this error
2021-01-24T20:04:55Z phoe: one second...
2021-01-24T20:05:34Z theothornhill: I guess it hangs in emacs because of that, but fails to show it to me there
2021-01-24T20:06:16Z phoe: it's likely in the *inferior-lisp* buffer
2021-01-24T20:06:21Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T20:07:12Z phoe: it seems like a bug in cl+ssl - https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/blob/ff4634a2addedc033394e93a402523532e9b470a/src/reload.lisp#L44-L49
2021-01-24T20:07:16Z theothornhill: Yes, it is
2021-01-24T20:07:28Z theothornhill: Yeah, that is where I saw it hang first
2021-01-24T20:07:36Z phoe: new versions of macos crash when libcrypto is attempted to be loaded without a version
2021-01-24T20:08:25Z theothornhill: sweet
2021-01-24T20:08:53Z theothornhill: So what is the fix? Should I provide some patch upstream or is it simple to avoid locally?
2021-01-24T20:09:13Z phoe: AFAIK you need to load a concrete version of libcrypto rather than the un-versioned one
2021-01-24T20:09:23Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:09:37Z phoe: you could try to make a GitHub issue and mention the above link
2021-01-24T20:09:55Z theothornhill: Will do. I'll try to install libcrypto from brew first
2021-01-24T20:09:58Z phoe: I'm not a macOS user so I can't check, but I've seen this break e.g. in https://github.com/orthecreedence/cl-async/issues/181
2021-01-24T20:12:20Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-24T20:12:40Z theothornhill: Thanks, I'll look into it
2021-01-24T20:14:13Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:19:31Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-24T20:31:27Z _paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-24T20:32:00Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:32:23Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:32:30Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T20:32:33Z jpsa joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:32:44Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:33:09Z nij: Hello! I have a .lisp file that works if evaluated as a buffer. How do I package it into a proper lisp project?
2021-01-24T20:33:13Z nij: https://bpa.st/QLIZ4
2021-01-24T20:33:21Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-24T20:34:52Z jpsa left #lisp
2021-01-24T20:35:07Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:36:13Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:37:17Z White_Flame: for an ASDF/Quicklisp compatible project, you need an .asd file that loads that lisp file
2021-01-24T20:37:29Z White_Flame: grab any .asd file from another small project, copy it, season to taste
2021-01-24T20:37:49Z White_Flame: (also, get your defpackage/in-package uncommented, or make a separate package.lisp containing it)
2021-01-24T20:38:06Z nij: This is the asd file that I have tried: https://bpa.st/MKHKA
2021-01-24T20:38:20Z nij: I kept getting "illegal function call"
2021-01-24T20:39:01Z White_Flame: you need to call asdf:defsystem
2021-01-24T20:39:23Z White_Flame: since there's no in-package in that file, it's probably running within cl-user
2021-01-24T20:40:25Z White_Flame: it's an illegal function call in terms of trying to evaluate the last parameter in (foo :blah :components ((:file "main"))) before trying to call foo
2021-01-24T20:40:36Z abhixec quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T20:41:20Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-24T20:41:40Z pve: I think asdf switches to its own package when loading asd files..
2021-01-24T20:42:23Z White_Flame: huh, well I suspect the error is that it doesn't know that the "defsystem" is a macro, hence it's trying to evaluate the parameters
2021-01-24T20:42:50Z nij: Is there a way to post an adhoc git repo?
2021-01-24T20:42:50Z White_Flame: which points to package issues
2021-01-24T20:42:59Z phoe: nij: gist, in a way
2021-01-24T20:43:18Z phoe: but it's kind of a hassle, it doesn't support subdirectories either
2021-01-24T20:44:25Z nij: OK.. I will use plain text then. It's fine.
2021-01-24T20:44:38Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:45:15Z nij: currently the error looks like this.. https://bpa.st/EFLIK
2021-01-24T20:45:18Z nij: I have no idea why.
2021-01-24T20:45:24Z nij: (Have used the prefix asdf:)
2021-01-24T20:45:34Z phoe: malformed syntax
2021-01-24T20:45:49Z phoe: "illegal function call" means that you have parentheses errors somewhere
2021-01-24T20:46:15Z nij: That's weird cuz evaluating the emacs buffer did work.
2021-01-24T20:46:18Z nij: But lemme double check.
2021-01-24T20:46:31Z phoe: it might have worked but it likely produced warnings.
2021-01-24T20:47:10Z White_Flame: nij: it's loading your code, erroring in questionnaire/main.lisp
2021-01-24T20:47:35Z White_Flame: got some double-open-parens opening your function calls or something
2021-01-24T20:47:47Z White_Flame: so the .asd appears to be doing its thing
2021-01-24T20:47:47Z phoe: or you forgot to depend on use some packages and it tries parsing macro arguments as standard function calls.
2021-01-24T20:48:14Z White_Flame: or your defmacro isn't called before you're starting to use them
2021-01-24T20:48:14Z nij: I don't know how to "depend on" some packages correctly.
2021-01-24T20:48:20Z nij: So I bet it's that.
2021-01-24T20:48:46Z White_Flame: but anyway, EXPIREDP, with ((filepath (pathname ... is your first error
2021-01-24T20:49:00Z nij: this is my expiredp:
2021-01-24T20:49:01Z nij: https://bpa.st/54QKG
2021-01-24T20:49:10Z dra joined #lisp
2021-01-24T20:49:48Z phoe: this looks pretty standard. are you sure that you use the CL package?
2021-01-24T20:49:53Z White_Flame: and that's toplevel, nothing' surrounding it?
2021-01-24T20:50:08Z nij: correct.
2021-01-24T20:50:19Z White_Flame: yeah, defpackage needs at least a (:use :cl)
2021-01-24T20:50:21Z nij: I have double checked this by using emacs narrowing function.
2021-01-24T20:50:28Z White_Flame: else it's not seeing any standard common-lisp symbols
2021-01-24T20:50:33Z White_Flame: like, DEFUN or LET* :)
2021-01-24T20:50:33Z nij: (But :use is considered bad practice T_T..)
2021-01-24T20:50:45Z White_Flame: for libraries
2021-01-24T20:50:50Z phoe: except for packages that you are sure won't ever change
2021-01-24T20:50:53Z phoe: CL is such a package :D
2021-01-24T20:51:13Z nij: lemme use it then.
2021-01-24T20:51:59Z phoe: CL is the only package that you can safely USE 99.9% of the time, and also the only package that you'll USE 99.9% of the time in practice
2021-01-24T20:52:05Z nij: I have changed it to
2021-01-24T20:52:05Z nij: (defpackage questionnaire (:export :execute-qnr) (:use :cl))
2021-01-24T20:52:11Z nij: The error message did change.
2021-01-24T20:52:22Z nij: ; compilation unit aborted \n ; caught 2 fatal ERROR conditions
2021-01-24T20:52:28Z phoe: the remaining 0.1% is for situations where you need a variant of the CL package, e.g. with qtools
2021-01-24T20:52:28Z aeth: A defpackage at the very least needs a (:use) since apparently it's UB if there isn't any (:use) so it might implicitly (:use :cl)
2021-01-24T20:52:34Z nij: ; Evaluation aborted on #<NAME-CONFLICT {100232FEA3}>
2021-01-24T20:52:48Z phoe: ooh, name conflict!
2021-01-24T20:52:52Z phoe: either reload your Lisp image
2021-01-24T20:52:52Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T20:52:58Z phoe: (which will be the painless way)
2021-01-24T20:53:10Z phoe: or use the take-new restart until the debugger is satisfied
2021-01-24T20:53:11Z nij: What does that mean? Launch a new repl?
2021-01-24T20:53:13Z nij: I'm using sly.
2021-01-24T20:53:19Z phoe: ,restart-inferior-lisp
2021-01-24T20:53:23Z phoe: that works in slime
2021-01-24T20:53:28Z phoe: or, M-x sly-restart-inferior-lisp
2021-01-24T20:53:34Z White_Flame: basically, you implicitly defined QUESTIONNAIRE::DEFUN, and now you're trying to import CL:DEFUN which is a conflict
2021-01-24T20:53:34Z nij: JEEZ
2021-01-24T20:53:36Z nij: WORKED.
2021-01-24T20:53:39Z phoe: <3
2021-01-24T20:54:12Z White_Flame: you could also have deleted your questionnaire package
2021-01-24T20:54:24Z White_Flame: (the in-memory construct)
2021-01-24T20:55:11Z nij: Well, ql:quickload doesn't complain.
2021-01-24T20:55:21Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T20:55:25Z White_Flame: by default it also muffles warnings ;)
2021-01-24T20:55:27Z phoe: even when verbose?
2021-01-24T20:55:33Z White_Flame: there's :verbose t or something to enable that
2021-01-24T20:55:48Z phoe: try (asdf:load-system :questionnaire :force t) - that force-reloads the system and also displays all warnings
2021-01-24T20:56:01Z aeth: QL with :verbose t will only complain on new changes, too, since most of the compiled files will be cached.
2021-01-24T20:56:11Z phoe: that's what :force t does
2021-01-24T20:56:23Z aeth: What's annoying, though, is that QL verbose will show verbose on all dependencies, too
2021-01-24T20:56:33Z White_Flame: since a very common case is to load other people's code, it defaults that way to not be spammed by their non-breaking issues
2021-01-24T20:56:34Z nij: OH dear. It works <3 <3
2021-01-24T20:56:35Z aeth: So you get to learn that some library you depend on is filled with STYLE-WARNINGs or whatever
2021-01-24T20:57:16Z nij: Now how do I separate them into different files?
2021-01-24T20:57:27Z nij: Usually, one has a package.lisp, config.lisp, main.lisp.. right?
2021-01-24T20:57:36Z phoe: open a new file, add the proper IN-PACKAGE on top of it, move some code around
2021-01-24T20:57:44Z phoe: and then add the file to the ASDF system definition
2021-01-24T20:57:52Z nij: Is that what :components ((:file "main"))) ... in asdf:defsystem says?
2021-01-24T21:00:11Z theothornhill: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/systems.html should provide some useful info about systems.
2021-01-24T21:01:03Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T21:04:47Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-24T21:05:03Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-24T21:05:53Z ealfonso: is there a way to generate a nice graphical report with sb-sprof?
2021-01-24T21:06:03Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-24T21:06:12Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-24T21:06:15Z phoe: nij: yes
2021-01-24T21:06:22Z phoe: ealfonso: there is a flamegraph package somewhere
2021-01-24T21:08:16Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T21:09:19Z ealfonso: phoe thanks, looks cool. quickload tells me <System "flamegraph" not found>, will try installing manually
2021-01-24T21:10:31Z White_Flame: nij: and the :serial t means the files will be read in order that you list them.  If it's not serial, then each file should list what peers it's dependent on, for more complex stuff
2021-01-24T21:10:54Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T21:11:18Z nij: White_Flame: You mean when the dependent tree is not "linear", right?
2021-01-24T21:11:25Z White_Flame: right
2021-01-24T21:11:32Z nij: In each file, how to I claim its dependencies?
2021-01-24T21:11:50Z White_Flame: I believe that :serial t means that each file gets a dependency list of all files before it, and then it does the full dependency resolving stuff
2021-01-24T21:12:09Z White_Flame: (:file "blah" :depends-on ...) I think
2021-01-24T21:12:11Z White_Flame: check the manual
2021-01-24T21:15:04Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T21:15:26Z phoe: ealfonso: it's not a system per se, one second
2021-01-24T21:15:39Z phoe: https://github.com/scymtym/clim.flamegraph
2021-01-24T21:15:40Z phoe: here, that one
2021-01-24T21:15:44Z nij: Oh yeah it's here https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html
2021-01-24T21:16:05Z phoe: ...hm, that repo is empty
2021-01-24T21:16:20Z phoe: check the future branch maybe
2021-01-24T21:16:26Z phoe: or ask scymtym - he should be able to help
2021-01-24T21:16:52Z pfdietz: Success.  I have a (core) Hypothesis clone working in CL.
2021-01-24T21:18:07Z phireh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-24T21:18:58Z phoe: what's hypothesis?
2021-01-24T21:19:38Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T21:19:54Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T21:20:29Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-24T21:21:21Z pve: Is there a good workflow that lets me start slime, and once connected, automatically load a "session" lisp file that sets up my session by loading some systems, maybe running some tests and entering some package? It would also be important for me to be able to restart the session easily, like pressing a single button.
2021-01-24T21:22:13Z phoe: pve: restarting it for me is ,ril<RET>
2021-01-24T21:22:30Z phoe: also, you can define a helper function in your RC file that does what you want
2021-01-24T21:22:47Z phoe: (defun s () (ql:quickload ...) (in-package ...))
2021-01-24T21:22:53Z Iolo joined #lisp
2021-01-24T21:22:57Z pve: I've written a 20% solution that does the bare minimum i need, but I was wondering if there's maybe a contrib or something
2021-01-24T21:22:58Z phoe: and then, when your slime is loaded, (s) and you're ready to go
2021-01-24T21:23:37Z pve: phoe: is that how you do it?
2021-01-24T21:23:48Z pfdietz: Hypothesis is a random input generation library, originally in Python.  The interesting twist it has is minimizing interesting inputs by mutating the recorded random bits used by the generator.
2021-01-24T21:23:52Z phoe: pve: nope, I manually do ql:quickload and cl:in-package
2021-01-24T21:24:07Z phoe: but I restart my Lisp rarely enough for me to not need a custom startup function
2021-01-24T21:24:13Z phoe: a few times a day is nothing
2021-01-24T21:24:21Z phoe: pfdietz: I see
2021-01-24T21:24:47Z pfdietz: That way, if your generator enforces some condition on the generated objects, that is maintained even as you simplify it.
2021-01-24T21:26:18Z scymtym: pve: i use this start SBCL under wine and connect SLIME: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/start.el
2021-01-24T21:27:44Z pve: phoe: I've a couple of elisp functions that let me start slime "with the current buffer" and then by pressing a single button (I use F7) it will restart slime and load that same "session" file.
2021-01-24T21:28:00Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T21:28:42Z pve: scymtym: aha, that looks interesting
2021-01-24T21:29:45Z nij: Oh it's lovely. Finally made asdf work the first time <3
2021-01-24T21:29:49Z nij: Thanks for all your help!
2021-01-24T21:30:06Z nij: How do I export all symbols in a file. E.g.. here is my config.lisp: https://bpa.st/UNMAK
2021-01-24T21:30:14Z pve: phoe: and I've found it so exceedingly useful that I'd like to see if there's something a bit more polished around
2021-01-24T21:30:20Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-24T21:30:41Z nij: The user can add more questionnaires in side. The idea is to make all questionnaires here public, automatically.
2021-01-24T21:32:55Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T21:33:56Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T21:34:21Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T21:36:39Z dra quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T21:39:06Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T21:39:08Z pve: scymtym: slime-eval-async seems really useful, I wasn't aware that existed
2021-01-24T21:40:16Z scymtym: pve: yeah, i didn't use or need any of this before i started working on the McCLIM windows backend under wine
2021-01-24T21:42:45Z pve: scymtym: here's what I use:
2021-01-24T21:42:49Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2254
2021-01-24T21:43:37Z pve: I'm pretty sure I could replace that hook juggling with slime-eval-async
2021-01-24T21:44:25Z scymtym: pve: i see
2021-01-24T21:48:36Z McParen left #lisp
2021-01-24T21:51:03Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T21:54:04Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T21:58:36Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T21:59:49Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:01:54Z mmkarakaya quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-24T22:02:00Z torbo joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:04:16Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T22:05:46Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:06:52Z jumping_sloth joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:06:53Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n
2021-01-24T22:08:32Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:14:27Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-24T22:16:51Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:21:05Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-24T22:21:06Z Blukunfando joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:23:43Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:26:24Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T22:27:42Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:28:30Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T22:32:14Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-24T22:32:18Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:32:30Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T22:36:39Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-24T22:38:59Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:46:35Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T22:47:34Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:48:50Z jumping_sloth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-24T22:51:06Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T22:53:52Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:57:48Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-24T22:57:53Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T22:57:55Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:02:27Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T23:02:33Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-24T23:05:57Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-24T23:06:17Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T23:06:24Z Xach: it's quicklisp dist day today
2021-01-24T23:06:25Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:06:49Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-24T23:08:30Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:13:31Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:14:19Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T23:14:34Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:14:58Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-24T23:19:18Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-24T23:24:56Z housel joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:25:02Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-24T23:25:29Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:25:41Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:31:23Z dtb joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:32:53Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:34:33Z dtb left #lisp
2021-01-24T23:35:21Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:40:04Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T23:44:26Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T23:46:05Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-24T23:48:06Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:49:05Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:51:07Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-24T23:51:11Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-24T23:55:54Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:00:58Z SGASAU joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:01:02Z SGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T00:01:45Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-25T00:02:15Z SGASAU joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:02:29Z SGASAU quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T00:03:29Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:10:56Z pfdietz: Yay!  What is breaking?
2021-01-25T00:12:43Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:12:51Z Xach: nothing, i'm testing with 2.0.5, a good SBCL
2021-01-25T00:13:09Z Xach: after the release i will test with the latest, again, and report some more bugs.
2021-01-25T00:13:46Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-25T00:14:14Z Xach has time for release now that he has been killed unexpectedly by jubilex
2021-01-25T00:17:07Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:17:07Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:17:18Z mgsk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T00:17:18Z buoy49 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:17:45Z jerme_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:17:45Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:17:57Z jerme_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:17:58Z ffwacom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:17:58Z alanz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:17:58Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:17:59Z Vultyre quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:18:02Z selwyn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:18:08Z mgsk joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:18:19Z alanz joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:18:23Z banjiewen_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:18:26Z banjiewen__ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:19:07Z buoy49 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:19:08Z selwyn joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:19:26Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:19:28Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:19:31Z physpi joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:19:38Z sz0 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:19:43Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:19:56Z gendl joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:19:58Z ffwacom joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:20:38Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:25:21Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:35:21Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:42:56Z dbotton: Xach what time is/was the cut off? (I just checked in the last major feature)
2021-01-25T00:47:20Z Xach: dbotton: a few hours ago.
2021-01-25T00:47:24Z Xach: maybe 6?
2021-01-25T00:48:02Z dbotton: Oh well what is is, thanks
2021-01-25T00:48:38Z Xach: que serapeum serapeum
2021-01-25T00:48:57Z dbotton: At least got a bunch of docs in there
2021-01-25T00:49:26Z dbotton: Videos and sound next time
2021-01-25T00:51:42Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:54:16Z charles`: cut off for quicklisp release?
2021-01-25T00:54:42Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:55:53Z dbotton: ya
2021-01-25T00:57:14Z charles`: So I there is a bug fix, it won't be readily available until the next release?
2021-01-25T00:58:10Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-25T00:58:24Z Xach: charles`: through quicklisp, usually that's how it works. if you want intermediate updates you have to fetch it yourself, like with a git checkout or similar.
2021-01-25T00:58:56Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T00:59:03Z charles`: or ultralisp ;)
2021-01-25T00:59:24Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-25T00:59:43Z charles`: congratulations X-Scale !
2021-01-25T00:59:53Z Xach: yeah, that dist uses a different release cadence and criteria
2021-01-25T01:00:29Z charles`: If a library is on ultralisp and quicklisp how does quicklisp decide which one to get? most recent?
2021-01-25T01:02:11Z Xach: charles`: you can get pretty fine-grained, but the default ordering is which dist was more recently installed
2021-01-25T01:02:40Z Xach: you can change the priority at the dist, project, and system level
2021-01-25T01:04:35Z zyz joined #lisp
2021-01-25T01:06:54Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-25T01:08:40Z nij left #lisp
2021-01-25T01:12:49Z Xach: if you check out a project somewhere known to asdf it will always take priority over a dist-provided system
2021-01-25T01:13:06Z Xach: "always", but you can always change the asdf system search function ordering if you really want to.
2021-01-25T01:13:13Z Xach: it's programs all the way down!
2021-01-25T01:14:37Z charles`: truly amazing. So quicklisp will update a project even if the ASDF version number didn't change?
2021-01-25T01:16:23Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-25T01:16:28Z Xach: it will update a project if the code changes, the asdf version number does not factor in
2021-01-25T01:16:57Z Xach: actually not the code - if the project's sources change, which includes non-code files too.
2021-01-25T01:17:04Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-25T01:20:19Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-25T01:25:11Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-25T01:30:35Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T01:34:52Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-25T01:35:27Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T01:43:54Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T01:45:30Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-25T01:50:45Z deltab quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T01:50:50Z summerisle quit (Quit: In my vision, I was on the veranda of a vast estate, a palazzo of some fantastic proportion.)
2021-01-25T01:51:03Z summerisle joined #lisp
2021-01-25T01:58:07Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T02:00:21Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T02:00:33Z deltab joined #lisp
2021-01-25T02:14:43Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T02:16:28Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-25T02:16:31Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-25T02:17:26Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-25T02:21:30Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-25T02:29:31Z ealfonso joined #lisp
2021-01-25T02:30:44Z ealfonso: Can anyone help me understand this error? "Lock on package ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0 violated when defining ALEXANDRIA.1.0.0:WHEN-LET as a macro while in package HUNCHENTOOT." It only started happening after installing (ql-dist:install-dist "http://dist.ultralisp.org/")
2021-01-25T02:35:52Z White_Flame: something's trying to define WHEN-LET in two places
2021-01-25T02:39:04Z White_Flame: and the 2nd one is doing so when alexandria's one is already imported/used
2021-01-25T02:45:20Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-25T02:47:39Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T02:58:40Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-25T03:04:25Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T03:07:59Z bilegeek_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T03:09:32Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-25T03:10:14Z bilegeek quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-25T03:11:36Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-25T03:13:16Z bilegeek_ is now known as bilegeek
2021-01-25T03:13:20Z ey[m]1: what would be the fastest way to iterate from 1 to 1 billion in common lisp ?
2021-01-25T03:14:06Z White_Flame: declare fixnum
2021-01-25T03:14:34Z White_Flame: all reasonable styles should compile down to the same register increment
2021-01-25T03:14:52Z White_Flame: (assuming you have your optimization declarations as well)
2021-01-25T03:16:17Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-25T03:17:28Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-25T03:26:36Z ey[m]1: and how would I have a list or an array of 1 billion elements ?
2021-01-25T03:27:45Z Bike: how? you can make them with make-list or make-array
2021-01-25T03:29:12Z White_Flame: just do your type & optimization declarations and use the standard stuff
2021-01-25T03:29:29Z White_Flame: also, use DISASSEMBLE to verify your assumptions
2021-01-25T03:29:48Z White_Flame: any time there's an unexpected function call to some CL internal, you haven't found optimality yet
2021-01-25T03:30:26Z White_Flame: also, this is assuming SBCL, which is quite good (sans the triggering lack of peephole optimizer ;) ))
2021-01-25T03:30:27Z ey[m]1: something like (make-array 1000000000) exhausts the heap
2021-01-25T03:30:41Z White_Flame: give it a bigger heap then, as a cmdline option
2021-01-25T03:31:01Z ey[m]1: I gave it 4 gb, it still couldn't do it
2021-01-25T03:31:01Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-25T03:31:03Z White_Flame: default is like 1GB, you're allocating like 8
2021-01-25T03:31:19Z White_Flame: so give it 12 or something
2021-01-25T03:31:39Z White_Flame: assuming a 64-bit system, that's 8 bytes per entry
2021-01-25T03:32:11Z White_Flame: also, if you're iterating that size of memory, your memory bandwidth could easily dominate performance, if you're just doing simple work per entry
2021-01-25T03:32:35Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-25T03:32:51Z White_Flame: oh, and be aware that you're allocating a million-dimension array ;)
2021-01-25T03:32:58Z White_Flame: *billion
2021-01-25T03:33:01Z saturn2: you could use a bit vector if you want to save memory
2021-01-25T03:33:34Z White_Flame: (hmm, not sure about dimensionality, but still.)
2021-01-25T03:34:48Z White_Flame: (nope, you're right.  A number there is a designator for a list of 1 number)
2021-01-25T03:36:36Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T03:40:14Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T03:43:07Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-25T03:44:21Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T03:46:21Z mfiano: Having a hard time trying to figure out what such a large dataset of known values ahead of time would be used for
2021-01-25T03:55:03Z White_Flame: well, brute force techniques might call for that, now that memory is much more available
2021-01-25T03:55:20Z White_Flame: but those usually aren't used for a straight iterative streaming, but a massive lookup table
2021-01-25T03:57:06Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T03:58:31Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-25T04:02:04Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T04:02:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-25T04:03:26Z Codaraxis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T04:04:10Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T04:04:50Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T04:07:48Z mfiano: Then use an array of '(unsigned-byte 32), not a list of fixnums.
2021-01-25T04:08:28Z mfiano: On sbcl64, that'd be 4,000,000,016B
2021-01-25T04:08:38Z White_Flame: obviously depends on the data.  If he's just using bytes, then cut that in half by 4 again
2021-01-25T04:08:46Z White_Flame: -in half
2021-01-25T04:09:36Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-25T04:09:40Z mfiano: Oh I read the question as a list of values from 1 to 1 billion. Ignore me
2021-01-25T04:10:50Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T04:11:19Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-25T04:14:19Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T04:18:53Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T04:19:45Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-25T04:23:04Z jrm: For our clx OS package, any suggestions on whether we should stick with the latest release (0.7.5) or do what quicklisp does and keep up with the master branch of https://github.com/sharplispers/clx ?
2021-01-25T04:26:33Z beach: Are there any releases at all?  I would do the sharplispers version.  As I recall, the good people in #clim also fix issues in CLX when they find them.  But you can check with them.
2021-01-25T04:28:04Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-25T04:31:31Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-25T04:39:20Z jrm: beach: Yeah, they (github.com/sharplispers) released 0.7.5 back in Feb. 2018.
2021-01-25T04:39:37Z beach: Oh, OK.
2021-01-25T04:53:56Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-25T04:56:10Z andreyorst[m] quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T05:01:36Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T05:02:35Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T05:13:28Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-25T05:18:03Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T05:19:19Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-25T05:39:00Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-25T05:41:48Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-25T05:47:10Z easye joined #lisp
2021-01-25T05:51:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T05:53:59Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T05:54:41Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T05:58:23Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T05:59:01Z Anonymous_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T06:20:02Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-25T06:23:11Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T06:27:48Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T06:29:30Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-25T06:32:25Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T06:35:56Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-25T06:36:25Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T06:36:45Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T06:38:50Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-25T06:39:45Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-25T06:39:48Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T06:40:07Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T06:40:40Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-25T06:44:08Z jumping_sloth joined #lisp
2021-01-25T06:51:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T06:53:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-25T06:54:12Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-25T06:56:22Z froggey joined #lisp
2021-01-25T06:57:43Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:02:44Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:03:44Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-25T07:05:30Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:06:23Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T07:06:26Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:08:01Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:10:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:12:26Z enzuru joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:12:50Z enzuru quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-25T07:13:29Z enzuru joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:13:53Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:22:47Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:26:19Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-25T07:29:32Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:29:40Z nij: Why are lisp compiled files SO LARGE?
2021-01-25T07:29:47Z nij: hello.exe => 42MB
2021-01-25T07:29:59Z beach: You mean executables?
2021-01-25T07:30:14Z beach: Because the compiler must be present for it to be Common Lisp.
2021-01-25T07:30:30Z beach: But that's not "compiled files".  A compiled file would be more like a FASL.
2021-01-25T07:31:07Z nij: oh..
2021-01-25T07:31:23Z nij: beach: can't we use dynamical linking to call the compiler?
2021-01-25T07:32:06Z beach: Sure, some Common Lisp systems can have many things in a shared object file.  I think ECL does that.
2021-01-25T07:32:28Z beach: nij: But I assume you are not looking at ECL.
2021-01-25T07:32:55Z nij: Oh.. I'm using sbcl. :-(
2021-01-25T07:33:02Z beach: nij: Unix-like operating systems are a very bad fit for Common Lisp.  Imagine instead that the Common Lisp REPL is the shell, and FASLs are your executable files.
2021-01-25T07:33:45Z nij: I see.
2021-01-25T07:34:26Z beach: On the other hand, 42MB of RAM (assuming that everything has to be in RAM which is not true if you have demand paging) cost how much these days?  A few cents?
2021-01-25T07:35:03Z nij: Having 50 of them is .. 2GB.
2021-01-25T07:35:47Z nij: I mean.. I don't see why SBCL can't make it link to compiler dynamically.
2021-01-25T07:35:52Z beach: nij: So as it turns out, the maintainers of SBCL did not bother to make the Unix executable files small.  I fully understand their priorities.
2021-01-25T07:36:09Z nij: I see!
2021-01-25T07:36:13Z Nilby is living in that imagination.
2021-01-25T07:36:21Z flip214: nij: you can produce an image with all of the shared libraries, and use that image to load the app-specific FASLs.
2021-01-25T07:36:56Z nij: flip214: How much in size can be reduced @@?
2021-01-25T07:36:57Z flip214: nij: as long as the base image is uncompressed and can so be mmap()ed into memory directly, all of the running processes should share the common libs.
2021-01-25T07:37:24Z beach: nij: You would have 42MB for the 50 applications.
2021-01-25T07:37:26Z flip214: nij: do you want to save space _on_disk_ or _in_ram_ (when using 50 different applications)?
2021-01-25T07:37:30Z beach: A bit more perhaps.
2021-01-25T07:37:33Z nij: oh oh oh see
2021-01-25T07:37:59Z nij: yeah this is how people handle their cl scripts
2021-01-25T07:38:08Z flip214: _on_disk_ you can reduce space demands by writing a compressed image.
2021-01-25T07:38:12Z nij: it's still weird to me though.
2021-01-25T07:38:20Z nij: I can understand their priorities too.
2021-01-25T07:38:24Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:38:28Z beach: nij: Seriously though, forget about the defective Unix model and just use the Common Lisp REPL.
2021-01-25T07:38:50Z nij: beach that's the plan
2021-01-25T07:38:56Z flip214: nij: just add up all the libstdc++, libgcc, gcc, ld, .h, and other files required for the same task, and _the_ compare again ;)
2021-01-25T07:39:01Z nij: i don't even have to make executables right?
2021-01-25T07:39:03Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T07:39:09Z flip214: depends on your needs.
2021-01-25T07:39:11Z nij: flip214: yep yep xD
2021-01-25T07:39:17Z beach: I never make executables myself.
2021-01-25T07:39:38Z nij: But it's nice to have a keybind in my window manager, that executes something right away.
2021-01-25T07:39:43Z flip214: an image that comes up with the HTTP port 18msec after starting is quite nice... but if you reload all the libs first it takes longer
2021-01-25T07:39:49Z pranavats: There was a tutorial on replacing unix shell with Clisp.
2021-01-25T07:40:00Z nij: pranavats: Give it to MEEE xDD
2021-01-25T07:40:02Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:40:11Z beach: pranavats: That would not solve the problem.
2021-01-25T07:40:49Z nij: How do I keybind my cl scripts then?
2021-01-25T07:41:18Z pranavats: nij: https://clisp.sourceforge.io/clash.html
2021-01-25T07:41:19Z beach: nij: Maybe you can use stumpwm.  Then you are a bit on the way to forgetting Unix.
2021-01-25T07:41:42Z nij: beach: I heard that stumpwm crashes more often then exwm..
2021-01-25T07:41:52Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:42:00Z nij: pranavats: <3 <3 <3
2021-01-25T07:42:33Z White_Flame: nij: re the executable size, compare to the size of an installed JVM, and if that were baked into the executable itself
2021-01-25T07:42:36Z nij: beach: Hmm I think what I want is possible..
2021-01-25T07:42:48Z nij: namely, to have the repl daemon
2021-01-25T07:43:03Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T07:43:13Z nij: and I can keybind a message to that daemon for running things i want
2021-01-25T07:43:38Z pranavats: nij: There's also shcl: https://github.com/SquircleSpace/shcl
2021-01-25T07:44:19Z nij: pranavats: <3 <3
2021-01-25T07:46:27Z nij: How do I send signals to a stand-by sbcl repl, for it to evaluate some expressions?
2021-01-25T07:47:34Z aeth: nij: CL is basically in the same situation JVM is, as White_Flame said. It's just... installed by default on far fewer machines.
2021-01-25T07:48:10Z White_Flame: nij: the server end of SLIME does that (called swank)
2021-01-25T07:48:14Z aeth: Bundling the (large) runtime executable with each executable seems more appealing when you're distributing it to someone who doesn't have it, even if it's wasteful.
2021-01-25T07:48:34Z White_Flame: you can have a running lisp process, then make a new slime connection to it from emacs and have a full repl.  Disconnect, and the lisp process stil runs
2021-01-25T07:48:49Z nij: White_Flame: I see. I will look for an equivalent of SLY. Thanks!
2021-01-25T07:48:53Z White_Flame: useful for debugging deployments
2021-01-25T07:49:06Z White_Flame: does sly use the same swank backend?
2021-01-25T07:49:13Z White_Flame: should do the same, then
2021-01-25T07:51:09Z White_Flame: yeah, sly does the same, see "Running the server standalone" https://github.com/joaotavora/sly
2021-01-25T07:51:59Z nij: SHCL doesn't seem to be running in the sbcl repl :-(
2021-01-25T07:52:29Z nij: Ah it's called slynk.
2021-01-25T07:53:36Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-25T07:57:40Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T07:58:45Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-25T08:00:08Z beach: nij: While it is possible (as ECL shows) to put a lot of system code in a shared object file, it would not be appropriate for Common Lisp to use the kludge that Unix calls "dynamic linking".
2021-01-25T08:01:39Z nij: not appropriate in what sense?
2021-01-25T08:02:50Z beach: It just makes too many assumptions about how functions are called, etc.
2021-01-25T08:03:02Z beach: And those assumptions are appropriate for C.
2021-01-25T08:03:29Z nij: Oh @@
2021-01-25T08:04:31Z beach: I suppose it would be possible for a Common Lisp system to use Unix dynamic linking, but it would be a lot of work to adapt the system implementation that way, or to special case some functions like the compiler.
2021-01-25T08:06:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T08:06:27Z nij: I see.
2021-01-25T08:06:40Z nij: Can imagine the loads of nuances..
2021-01-25T08:07:32Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T08:08:32Z beach: If I were to split a Common Lisp system into a shared object and an executable, I would probably put just executable code in the shared object, and mmap it to some known location at system start-up.
2021-01-25T08:09:39Z beach: But that might not work in the future.  Because the Unix model is so broken, they add hacks to kludges that make it more and more difficult to do things like that.  ASLR is a case in point.
2021-01-25T08:13:32Z nij: :-(
2021-01-25T08:13:45Z nij: I will forget about making executables for now and just stick with the repl.
2021-01-25T08:13:50Z beach: ... all so that they can continue to use unsafe languages on an unsafe operating system also written in an unsafe language.
2021-01-25T08:14:00Z nij: sigh
2021-01-25T08:14:07Z nij: speaking of safety
2021-01-25T08:14:18Z nij: what kind of database would you choose?
2021-01-25T08:14:29Z White_Flame: postgres is popular
2021-01-25T08:14:31Z nij: I'm thinking of why shouldn't I use lisp code to replace csv.
2021-01-25T08:14:33Z beach: Me? None!
2021-01-25T08:15:30Z White_Flame: sexpr data files are already way better than csv
2021-01-25T08:15:38Z beach: Indeed.
2021-01-25T08:15:42Z White_Flame: in terms of the read-all, dump-all case
2021-01-25T08:15:59Z nij: And it's more transparent.
2021-01-25T08:16:09Z nij: I find it hard to read a fullfledged database.
2021-01-25T08:16:09Z flip214: well, json at least keeps number/string types intact, and compatible to other systems as well
2021-01-25T08:16:51Z White_Flame: but if you actually need a database as in RDBMS, then go postgres
2021-01-25T08:17:24Z White_Flame: if single-user, then sqlite
2021-01-25T08:17:36Z pranavats: There are also object stores like manardb (https://www.cliki.net/manardb). I haven't tried using them, however.
2021-01-25T08:17:49Z nij: heard this advice many times. i will do that White_Flame
2021-01-25T08:18:26Z White_Flame: postgres has strong support.  I haven't used sqlite from cl before, but libs are there,t oo
2021-01-25T08:18:44Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-25T08:19:13Z nij: pranavats: how easy is it to read the content of a manardb?!
2021-01-25T08:19:59Z pranavats: nij: I'm yet to explore object stores as well, to be honest.
2021-01-25T08:21:29Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T08:25:56Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T08:30:22Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-25T08:31:53Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T08:34:11Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-25T08:35:21Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-25T08:36:00Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T08:40:27Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-25T08:41:38Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-25T08:44:47Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-25T08:45:09Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-25T08:48:17Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T08:49:14Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T08:54:21Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-25T08:55:18Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T08:57:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T08:59:06Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:00:04Z malaclyps_ quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-25T09:00:04Z cairn quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-25T09:00:39Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:03:38Z zyz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T09:06:52Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:08:52Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:09:36Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-25T09:18:10Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:20:53Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:21:45Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:24:55Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-25T09:25:27Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:29:11Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T09:30:30Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:31:29Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:33:41Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T09:33:46Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T09:45:44Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:47:50Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T09:49:05Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:55:23Z jumping_sloth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-25T09:58:27Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T09:59:29Z jumping_sloth joined #lisp
2021-01-25T10:03:05Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T10:10:17Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-25T10:10:56Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T10:11:04Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-25T10:11:44Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T10:18:07Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T10:19:58Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T10:19:59Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-25T10:22:17Z pallas joined #lisp
2021-01-25T10:31:18Z flip214: Xach: https://github.com/xach/zpng: any plan to allow b/w images (ie. indexed, 1 bit per pixel)?
2021-01-25T10:31:25Z mmkarakaya joined #lisp
2021-01-25T10:41:02Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-25T10:46:33Z euandreh_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-25T10:47:30Z Codaraxis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T10:55:22Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-25T11:00:06Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-25T11:04:19Z jackdaniel: jrm: I can make a new release, that's not a problem
2021-01-25T11:12:05Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T11:13:30Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T11:23:01Z jackdaniel: but master is indeed usually most up to date
2021-01-25T11:23:02Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T11:24:06Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T11:24:34Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-25T11:28:56Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T11:31:07Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-25T11:32:52Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T11:33:05Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T11:33:05Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-25T11:38:29Z pallas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T11:54:31Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:02:40Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-25T12:03:19Z frgo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:06:32Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:14:24Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:17:48Z Firedancer_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:18:48Z terrorjack1 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:19:32Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:19:33Z TMA quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:19:34Z terrorjack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:19:34Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:19:34Z ck_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:19:35Z terrorjack1 is now known as terrorjack
2021-01-25T12:19:48Z ck_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:20:09Z Colleen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:20:35Z Firedancer_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:20:44Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:21:01Z TMA joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:21:04Z ineiros joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:21:28Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:21:29Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:22:46Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:22:50Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:23:14Z Stanley00 quit
2021-01-25T12:25:18Z jmercouris: hello everybody
2021-01-25T12:25:33Z jmercouris: I hope you are having a wonderful Milkfish Monday!
2021-01-25T12:27:03Z pallas joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:27:39Z stoneglass joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:32:49Z ldbeth joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:32:56Z ldbeth: good evening
2021-01-25T12:33:44Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-25T12:34:37Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:34:42Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:34:45Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:36:15Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-25T12:38:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:39:16Z pallas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:40:47Z theothornhill quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T12:41:18Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:43:01Z _noko joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:43:14Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T12:43:30Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:43:54Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:50:23Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:53:10Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T12:53:26Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:55:48Z _noko quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-25T12:56:04Z noko- joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:56:36Z xanderle_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T12:58:55Z pallas joined #lisp
2021-01-25T12:59:51Z nij: Why doesn't (assoc "b" (list (cons 'a 3)  (cons "b" 8))) gimme the second cons @@?
2021-01-25T13:00:33Z jackdaniel: nij: assoc defaults to eq test
2021-01-25T13:00:36Z jackdaniel: that is: identity
2021-01-25T13:00:39Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:00:42Z jackdaniel: you have two different strings "b" in there
2021-01-25T13:00:47Z nij: Uh. :( tricky it's different from elisp again.
2021-01-25T13:00:54Z nij: Oh I see.
2021-01-25T13:00:56Z jackdaniel: try (assoc "b" (list (cons 'a 3) (cons "b" 8)) :test #'string=)
2021-01-25T13:01:14Z nij: Woah! Yes it works!
2021-01-25T13:01:22Z jackdaniel: (it won't error on 'a, because symbols are special ,)
2021-01-25T13:01:46Z jackdaniel: if you want to put something else as a key (except from the string designator) use #'equal
2021-01-25T13:02:12Z jackdaniel: at least that seems what you would want given your question
2021-01-25T13:02:21Z nij: Yes!
2021-01-25T13:02:24Z nij: Thank you :)
2021-01-25T13:02:27Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-01-25T13:03:53Z pallas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T13:06:25Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:11:26Z ldbeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T13:23:23Z nij: How to update a global alist? https://bpa.st/SPEMU  <== failure
2021-01-25T13:23:34Z stoneglass quit (Quit: stoneglass)
2021-01-25T13:23:56Z jackdaniel: (setf (cdr (assoc …) …) …)
2021-01-25T13:24:20Z nij: that's almost what i did
2021-01-25T13:24:28Z nij: but i bind another name to (cdr ..)
2021-01-25T13:24:37Z nij: was that the problem?
2021-01-25T13:24:48Z jackdaniel: or, if you want to work with locatives: (defvar *place* (assoc "b" …)) and then (setf (cdr *place*) 9)
2021-01-25T13:24:55Z jackdaniel: the problem is that *place* is not a name, it is a variable
2021-01-25T13:25:12Z jackdaniel: and when you bind it to 8, the immediate object is associated with that variable
2021-01-25T13:25:17Z jackdaniel: not the address of it
2021-01-25T13:25:26Z nij: this is complicated, wow
2021-01-25T13:25:37Z nij: but lemme try and get used to it
2021-01-25T13:26:01Z jackdaniel: when you define *place* as you did above, you simply assign to it a result of the operation, that is a number 8
2021-01-25T13:26:19Z jackdaniel: how updating the variable from number 8 to 9 could influence the association list? *place* has no knowledge about that structure
2021-01-25T13:26:47Z nij: Indeed!
2021-01-25T13:26:54Z nij: I got it now :D thanks :D :D
2021-01-25T13:26:56Z jackdaniel: on the other hand, when you bind a certain cons to the variable *place*, then you may manipulate this cons freely (and assuming that it is part of the assoc list, modifying the cons will be reflected in the association list)
2021-01-25T13:27:59Z jackdaniel: common lisp features something called a symbol macro which would allow saying (setf *place* 9), but don't get distracted by that, it is a syntactic noise
2021-01-25T13:29:18Z jackdaniel: syntactic sugar causes software cariosity :)
2021-01-25T13:30:06Z nij: :)
2021-01-25T13:31:11Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:31:17Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T13:34:23Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:36:50Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:40:03Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:41:52Z VincentVega quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-25T13:44:20Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:45:18Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T13:45:25Z fourier` joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:46:27Z mrios22 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T13:48:19Z cpape quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T13:48:26Z cpape joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:50:09Z fourier` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T13:51:17Z fourier` joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:52:34Z fourier` is now known as fourier
2021-01-25T13:52:46Z fourier quit (Changing host)
2021-01-25T13:52:46Z fourier joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:55:53Z pve: is the default test really eq?
2021-01-25T13:56:19Z pve: oh wow, I'm late.. forgot to scroll down again :)
2021-01-25T13:57:33Z [d]: <p​ve#0000> oh wow, I'm late.. forgot to scroll down again :)
2021-01-25T13:57:33Z [d]: <p​ve#0000> [edit]:
2021-01-25T13:57:35Z [d]: <p​ve#0000> is the default test really eq?
2021-01-25T13:57:36Z [d]: <p​ve#0000> [edit]:
2021-01-25T13:57:44Z jackdaniel: eql seems to be more sensible, but I don't see the appropriate entry on the assoc page (neither for eq or eql)
2021-01-25T13:57:46Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:58:02Z jackdaniel: maybe it is settled in some normative statement for default test values
2021-01-25T13:58:16Z jackdaniel: [d]: ?
2021-01-25T13:58:34Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-25T13:58:38Z pve: jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm
2021-01-25T13:58:58Z jackdaniel: pve: thanks, so that's it, eql
2021-01-25T13:59:02Z pve: I understand that as eql being the default
2021-01-25T13:59:05Z pve: ok
2021-01-25T13:59:34Z jackdaniel: yes, my point was that a default test won't work on a string, but indeed I've mistaken the default test
2021-01-25T13:59:50Z chrpape` joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:00:01Z chrpape quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
2021-01-25T14:00:01Z beach quit (Write error: Broken pipe)
2021-01-25T14:00:10Z beach joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:01:58Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:07:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T14:11:56Z awkravchuk joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:12:53Z pallas joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:14:20Z ldb joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:17:22Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T14:17:29Z pallas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T14:19:54Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T14:20:14Z ldb joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:20:27Z iamFIREcracker quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T14:28:09Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:30:31Z dbotton: Xach this page's search goes to a dead site now - https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html
2021-01-25T14:35:49Z iamFIREcracker joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:38:52Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:38:56Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:43:37Z flip214: when printing compound objects, floats in there are written with too many digits; can I bind some variable (like *PRINT-LENGTH*) to change the format of floats within a block?
2021-01-25T14:44:13Z phoe: how are they printed in there? prin1?
2021-01-25T14:44:47Z phoe: the only way I can imagine is using FORMAT with a format control argument passed via a dynamic variable
2021-01-25T14:46:10Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T14:46:46Z ldb: maybe it's a good idea to specialize your printer
2021-01-25T14:49:35Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:52:53Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:53:43Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T14:54:12Z ldb joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:56:26Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T14:57:32Z [d]: <j​ackdaniel#0000> eql seems to be more sensible, but I don't see the appropriate entry on the assoc page (neither for eq or eql)
2021-01-25T14:57:32Z [d]: <j​ackdaniel#0000> [edit]:
2021-01-25T14:57:33Z [d]: <a​migojapan#0000> nice
2021-01-25T14:57:34Z [d]: <a​migojapan#0000> [edit]:
2021-01-25T14:57:34Z [d]: <j​ackdaniel#0000> maybe it is settled in some normative statement for default test values
2021-01-25T14:57:35Z [d]: <j​ackdaniel#0000> [edit]:
2021-01-25T14:57:37Z [d]: <a​rryana#0000> nods
2021-01-25T14:57:40Z [d]: <a​rryana#0000> [edit]:
2021-01-25T14:57:44Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:58:14Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-25T14:58:47Z beach: [d]: What are you doing?
2021-01-25T15:00:56Z andreyorst`: probably some IRC bridge stuff
2021-01-25T15:01:28Z beach: Mystery to me.  But thanks.
2021-01-25T15:01:34Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-25T15:01:49Z andreyorst`: their client supports message edits, which are simply sended to IRC as new messages with [edit] mark
2021-01-25T15:01:59Z andreyorst`: (my guess)
2021-01-25T15:02:26Z andreyorst`: [d]: FYI that's what others see on IRC https://i.imgur.com/emxRSxd.png
2021-01-25T15:02:27Z jackdaniel: it is a bridge, note that there is a nick in these "logs" that does not appear here
2021-01-25T15:02:32Z jackdaniel: but it is broken
2021-01-25T15:04:39Z flip214: phoe: ldb: thanks... I just wrote a few ~5f etc. and extracted the fields
2021-01-25T15:05:58Z phoe: a bridge to where exactly?
2021-01-25T15:06:47Z eta: looks like discord
2021-01-25T15:06:56Z phoe: yes, but where exactly on Discord
2021-01-25T15:09:37Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-25T15:10:44Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-25T15:17:04Z mmkarakaya quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-25T15:17:33Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-25T15:22:13Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-25T15:30:03Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-25T15:30:42Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-25T15:31:16Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T15:37:01Z cer0 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T15:38:28Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T15:42:41Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T15:51:11Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-25T15:51:31Z cer0 quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-25T15:51:47Z cer0 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T15:53:29Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T15:53:47Z cer0 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-25T15:54:04Z cer0 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T15:59:17Z ldb joined #lisp
2021-01-25T15:59:19Z cross joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:00:30Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-25T16:01:30Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-25T16:02:30Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T16:02:53Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:03:16Z nij: I have a nicely formatted plain-text file. I can read that into a lisp string.
2021-01-25T16:03:27Z nij: How to write that string to a pdf, nicely?
2021-01-25T16:03:51Z nij: Tried cl-pdf.. but there's no doc. The examples it provide seem to be too fancy. I just want to read nice plain texts on a paper.
2021-01-25T16:03:56Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T16:04:31Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:04:35Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T16:05:43Z jackdaniel: nij: how about (ql:quickload 'clim-pdf) and then
2021-01-25T16:05:44Z jackdaniel: (clim-pdf:with-output-to-pdf-stream (stream "/tmp/foo.pdf") (format stream "HI!~%"))
2021-01-25T16:05:47Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:06:02Z jackdaniel: of course you should replace (format stream …) with your own stuff
2021-01-25T16:08:30Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:08:53Z nij: I feed a long string to it..
2021-01-25T16:09:00Z nij: Error: Invalid index 24039 for (SIMPLE-VECTOR 256), should be a non-negative integer below 256.
2021-01-25T16:09:15Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T16:09:40Z ldb joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:10:02Z jackdaniel: could you show me the code?
2021-01-25T16:10:36Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:12:40Z nij: jackdaniel: Ah! It's because I have some non-english character inside.
2021-01-25T16:12:48Z nij: inside the string
2021-01-25T16:14:11Z phoe: gasp
2021-01-25T16:14:35Z phoe: could clim-pdf assume that all char-codes are of type (mod 256)?
2021-01-25T16:14:51Z phoe: or is there something else going on in there
2021-01-25T16:15:26Z nij: perhaps @@
2021-01-25T16:15:28Z jackdaniel: it is a matter of font metrics (so yes, clim-pdf issue)
2021-01-25T16:15:32Z nij: Or I can just use my old way.
2021-01-25T16:15:36Z nij: aka use vim
2021-01-25T16:16:55Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:17:10Z nij: $ vim test.txt -c ":\!paps < % > ~/test.pdf"
2021-01-25T16:17:17Z nij: Just have to insert this into cl..
2021-01-25T16:18:33Z surabax_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:19:17Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T16:21:42Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-25T16:21:53Z surabax quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-25T16:30:57Z cer0 quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-25T16:36:48Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T16:42:59Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:43:48Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T16:46:04Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T16:46:53Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:46:57Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:47:12Z thatpythonboy: hey
2021-01-25T16:48:05Z phoe: helloooo
2021-01-25T16:50:59Z beach: Hello thatpythonboy.  Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2021-01-25T16:52:02Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:54:51Z nij: Hello :D
2021-01-25T16:55:31Z nij: I heard that (>>>>> (size-of python-lib) (size-of cl-lib))..
2021-01-25T16:55:41Z nij: How do cl folks deal with this :'( ?
2021-01-25T16:56:04Z beach: "deal with"?
2021-01-25T16:56:33Z phoe: nij: wait, what do you mean
2021-01-25T16:56:46Z nij: The size of python library is much larger than that of CL..
2021-01-25T16:56:48Z nij: I
2021-01-25T16:56:53Z mfiano: and?
2021-01-25T16:56:53Z phoe: oh, you mean, the number of available libraries?
2021-01-25T16:56:53Z beach: So?
2021-01-25T16:57:00Z aeth: nij: There are three different ways to interface with Python
2021-01-25T16:57:01Z aeth: At least.
2021-01-25T16:57:01Z jackdaniel: immesaurable amounts of whisky  help
2021-01-25T16:57:08Z phoe: sure, there's fewer, but it doesn't mean there's few
2021-01-25T16:57:25Z phoe: CFFI also makes things easier for when there are foreign libraries available.
2021-01-25T16:57:48Z [d] quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-25T16:57:49Z dim: yeah also if you target the JVM that's where you will find the greatest number of already available libs to integrate with everything that exists, I believe
2021-01-25T16:57:55Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-25T16:58:00Z dim: at least on the JVM you can then use ABCL or Clojure
2021-01-25T16:58:16Z jackdaniel: what is more bothering is that python libraries tend to work longer - that means that the joy of computing lasts longer
2021-01-25T16:58:27Z nij: work longer?
2021-01-25T16:58:35Z beach: Heh.
2021-01-25T16:58:45Z jackdaniel: I'm joking that python performance is poor due to some specification choices
2021-01-25T16:59:07Z nij: mfiano: beach: .. Well we certainly don't want to write libs when it's needed as an auxialiry tools, right?
2021-01-25T16:59:16Z nij: he he he
2021-01-25T16:59:21Z beach: nij: Seriously, what kind of question is that?
2021-01-25T16:59:21Z pranavats: nij: We deal with it by staying focused on our needs, (for which CL libraries are often enough), rather than what's fashionable.
2021-01-25T16:59:34Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-25T16:59:41Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-25T17:00:03Z nij: beach: a noob kind of question, i guess.
2021-01-25T17:00:05Z jackdaniel: nij: see "section 5, performance" for the inspiration of the previous joke: https://cliki.net/Infrequently%20Asked%20Questions
2021-01-25T17:00:07Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-25T17:00:40Z beach: nij: No, I meant the "deal with" part.  I am not sure what kind of answer you want.  "We are all suicidal!"?
2021-01-25T17:00:42Z awkravchuk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-25T17:01:00Z mfiano: Yes, don't succumb to the shiny trap.
2021-01-25T17:01:02Z nij: jackdaniel: xD
2021-01-25T17:01:07Z charles`: If library doesn't exist for what you need just write it.  "make it so!"
2021-01-25T17:01:12Z beach: nij: I think if I needed libraries more than I need the Common Lisp features that I use on a daily basis, I would probably use Python instead.
2021-01-25T17:01:25Z puchacz joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:01:39Z nij: charles`:       GASP..!
2021-01-25T17:02:06Z charles`: This programming language and community are 100% worth it
2021-01-25T17:02:07Z dim: I don't suppose you would like it beach ;-) (I have done a lot of Python over the years, and well, well... I like Common Lisp a lot)
2021-01-25T17:02:46Z nij: charles`: I know <3
2021-01-25T17:02:48Z beach: dim: I think you are right.  It would be very frustrating.
2021-01-25T17:03:04Z beach: I would probably rather grow vegetables.
2021-01-25T17:03:27Z jackdaniel: who would won't to limit themself to programming strictly inside the cmucl compiler package though?
2021-01-25T17:03:33Z jackdaniel: s/won't/want/
2021-01-25T17:03:34Z dim: hehe, the retirement as a farmer idea then...
2021-01-25T17:03:45Z mfiano: jack is full of bad jokes today :)
2021-01-25T17:04:15Z jackdaniel: of course, I'm deep in xrender for the second week, I need to release stress
2021-01-25T17:04:46Z jackdaniel: https://files.mastodon.social/media_attachments/files/105/595/091/206/086/972/original/5dc9f1e10b9b61e6.png
2021-01-25T17:04:54Z jackdaniel: a random screenshot I took last week
2021-01-25T17:05:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T17:05:33Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:06:29Z dyelar joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:06:32Z nij: :-(
2021-01-25T17:06:53Z nij: "Hellno, world!"
2021-01-25T17:07:28Z jackdaniel: it was hello, but then I had it aligned so I couldn't verify, that the flipping ink works in the middle of the single letter
2021-01-25T17:07:47Z beach: I like this better.
2021-01-25T17:07:48Z nij: lol
2021-01-25T17:08:25Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:08:28Z nij: Speaking of this.. why doesn't "hell\no" give "hell
2021-01-25T17:08:29Z jackdaniel: notice i.e a letter "N" in the second row
2021-01-25T17:08:30Z nij: o" ?
2021-01-25T17:08:39Z phoe: nij: because of how the #\" reader macro works
2021-01-25T17:08:53Z phoe: see CL-INTERPOL for the behavior you seek
2021-01-25T17:08:54Z jackdaniel: nij: \n is printf's control character for writing a new line
2021-01-25T17:09:11Z nij: How to I achieve an equivalent here in CL?
2021-01-25T17:09:24Z jackdaniel: try: (format nil "hell~%o")
2021-01-25T17:09:40Z jackdaniel: or simply break the line before o
2021-01-25T17:10:15Z nij: yeah im aware of that
2021-01-25T17:10:34Z nij: just wishing a way to express the string with plain '""' and escapes.
2021-01-25T17:10:36Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T17:10:56Z jackdaniel: then follow phoe's advice
2021-01-25T17:11:04Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:11:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T17:12:56Z nij: OH cool.
2021-01-25T17:13:38Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:14:40Z beach: phoe: CL-INTERPOL?  You mean we have libraries for Common Lisp?
2021-01-25T17:14:40Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:15:12Z nij: XD
2021-01-25T17:15:36Z beach: Though, I am sure there is a library for Python to modify the python reader.
2021-01-25T17:15:56Z beach: No, wait, Python is not homoiconic, is it, so the code is not read by READ.
2021-01-25T17:16:13Z nij: It must be read by some other read @@
2021-01-25T17:17:12Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:17:13Z nij: I bet someone can re-write a python implementation (in particular, its "read") in python.
2021-01-25T17:17:25Z phoe: beach: :D
2021-01-25T17:17:26Z nij: That makes it possible to alter the reader in the lang python.
2021-01-25T17:17:37Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T17:17:38Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T17:17:43Z nij: Why, then, is Lisp homoiconicity superior (if it is)?
2021-01-25T17:17:57Z nij: (I believe it is :P)
2021-01-25T17:18:06Z White_Flame: metaprogramming
2021-01-25T17:18:33Z shka_: nij: macros without homoiconicity turn out to be a real mess
2021-01-25T17:18:33Z White_Flame: as in code that "programs" as in transforms or generates new code for you
2021-01-25T17:18:40Z White_Flame: not the python "metaprogramming" of just putting hooks on methods
2021-01-25T17:19:38Z shka_: nij: take a look at the scala macros to understand the problem
2021-01-25T17:19:40Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:20:02Z nij: took a quick look
2021-01-25T17:20:07Z shka_: scary huh?
2021-01-25T17:20:12Z nij: codes without parentheses now hurt my eyes
2021-01-25T17:20:33Z nij: however, codes with parentheses appear to have no parentheses any more o.0
2021-01-25T17:21:00Z nij: scary indeed
2021-01-25T17:21:15Z shka_: anyway, homoiconicity is handy because lisp meta-programing is just lisp programming
2021-01-25T17:21:28Z shka_: nothing unusual here, just work with lists
2021-01-25T17:21:47Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T17:21:55Z aeth: I'm probably going to implement Python at some point
2021-01-25T17:22:05Z shka_: aeth: good luck
2021-01-25T17:22:10Z nij: lol
2021-01-25T17:22:31Z shka_: noo, i really wish aeth good luck
2021-01-25T17:22:35Z aeth: shka_: I mean, it's not going to be a complete Python 3, and even if it is, it's not going to run any meaningful library like Tensorflow, which expects Python's particular way of calling into C/C++/Fortran
2021-01-25T17:22:51Z shka_: right
2021-01-25T17:23:05Z aeth: But you should be able to turn e.g. print("Hello world") into (python:print "Hello world")
2021-01-25T17:23:21Z aeth: And the latter is the interesting part, because now you'd be able to write a real s-expressioned Python, rather than e.g. Hy
2021-01-25T17:23:26Z nij: aeth: could you do it in a way that first translates py codes into lisp?
2021-01-25T17:23:33Z nij: YES
2021-01-25T17:23:48Z nij: What's the problem with hy?
2021-01-25T17:23:55Z nij: (I really like its name, by the way.)
2021-01-25T17:24:07Z aeth: nij: It would parse print("Hello world") into (python:print "Hello world") rather than directly translating it into the equivalent CL-native print/write/format because then you could use macros on the intermediate language
2021-01-25T17:24:22Z shka_: nij: other then the lack of a use case?
2021-01-25T17:24:48Z nij: OH! hy translates print("Hello world") into what?
2021-01-25T17:25:06Z shka_: if you wanna lisp that can interoop with some platform, pick clojure
2021-01-25T17:25:21Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:25:23Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:25:26Z shka_: it is not perfect, far from it, but it is actually quite enjoyable language
2021-01-25T17:25:46Z aeth: I think Hy might work on the AST of Python, but that's a low-level interpreter-specific AST used for internals
2021-01-25T17:25:54Z aeth: My hypothetical would just be full CL
2021-01-25T17:26:23Z nij: yes hy works on python asts
2021-01-25T17:27:05Z nij: But.. doesn't it translate the ast of print("Hello!") into "(python:print "Hello!")" ?
2021-01-25T17:27:38Z aeth: well, I don't quite know how it works, but in my experience, the various Lisp-like languages for non-Lisps don't really... do Lisp.
2021-01-25T17:27:53Z aeth: Python-on-CL would just... be Python on CL, essentially librarifying it.
2021-01-25T17:28:32Z aeth: Although this is a lot less than you think it is because (1) Python has a GIL so there are implicit, undiscovered race conditions in the code meaning you can't multithread libraries and (2) Python is slow so there's a lot of FFI, which wouldn't be compatible
2021-01-25T17:28:32Z nij: :-( i see
2021-01-25T17:29:53Z nij: It seems that all the problem can be solved if there's a textual translator.
2021-01-25T17:29:55Z arora joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:29:55Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:29:56Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T17:30:19Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:30:21Z nij: Namely, a translator between code as text, prior to any eval or internalization.
2021-01-25T17:31:36Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:31:37Z aeth: The way I'm going to implement non-s-expression languages (I currently only have a partial Scheme) is to essentially write an s-expression language that preserves the semantics of the language.
2021-01-25T17:32:03Z beach: nij: You mean like READ and PRINT?
2021-01-25T17:32:39Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:32:53Z aeth: Lispy languages that compile to other languages like Lua or Python tend to do either (lisp-like-language -> source-code) or (lisp-like-language -> exposed-interpreter-AST), but you're still restricted by the semantics of the target
2021-01-25T17:32:58Z Josh_2: how do I convert a symbol like 'LIMIT to :|limit| ?
2021-01-25T17:33:15Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-25T17:33:24Z Josh_2: Basically Im trying to check if a bunch of symbols are boundp as they correspond to variable names
2021-01-25T17:33:42Z beach: Josh_2: Wow, there are so many strange ideas in that question.
2021-01-25T17:33:48Z Josh_2: sorry lul
2021-01-25T17:33:48Z aeth: nij: What I'll be attempting is (foreign-source-code -> lisp-like-language -> Common-Lisp) which means it will have the performance characteristics of, say, SBCL and you will be able to use all of SBCL in both the compiler stage and the actual runtime.
2021-01-25T17:33:58Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:34:02Z Josh_2: You can probably tell me a more optimal way to solve my problem
2021-01-25T17:34:08Z aeth: nij: I'll do it on Lua, not Python, though. Lua's much, much smaller. If it works I might do Python and/or JS at some later time.
2021-01-25T17:34:12Z beach: Josh_2: So you have a symbol named "LIMIT" yes?
2021-01-25T17:34:34Z beach: ... in some package.
2021-01-25T17:34:44Z beach: Josh_2: And you want to convert it to a keyword symbol named "limit"?
2021-01-25T17:34:51Z judson_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-25T17:34:53Z beach: But what's the variable part?
2021-01-25T17:35:18Z aeth: Josh_2: step one is (symbol-name 'LIMIT) to get "LIMIT"
2021-01-25T17:35:30Z aeth: Josh_2: it should be obvious from there
2021-01-25T17:35:50Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:36:02Z nij: aeth: so do you mean to write a textual translator that first translates "print("hi")" to "[print "hi"]" and then to "(print "hi")"?
2021-01-25T17:36:32Z nij: aeth: (By the way, I wonder where you can find the very definition of the lang python.)
2021-01-25T17:36:36Z Josh_2: Basically I need to construct a large plist with many key values pairs however all of the keys are optional and I want to construct the list using the &key option in λ lists
2021-01-25T17:37:03Z shka_: Josh_2: and what is the default?
2021-01-25T17:37:11Z shka_: if it is optional
2021-01-25T17:37:17Z aeth: nij: no, it would go from print("hi") to (whatever-language:print "hi") with the caveat that various "-related syntax would be part of the reader, so e.g. "hi\nworld" would already turn the \n into a newline by the s-expression step, although a reader macro could be used to get the desired foreign behavior of " for literally writing the s-expressions
2021-01-25T17:37:26Z nij: beach: not read and print. But a function #'py->lisp with signature string->string.
2021-01-25T17:37:28Z Josh_2: I don't want to go through and check which are bound manually, I just want to construct my list from the bound variables
2021-01-25T17:37:40Z Josh_2: shka_: well unbound in this case, but I can provide a default
2021-01-25T17:37:41Z shka_: Josh_2: anyway, you want to construct keyword?
2021-01-25T17:37:48Z shka_: correct
2021-01-25T17:38:02Z aeth: nij: you absolutely don't want to go string to string
2021-01-25T17:38:16Z aeth: at least, not directly
2021-01-25T17:38:32Z aeth: You could go, say, Markdown string -> HTML string, but you better have a bunch of s-expressions in the intermediate or you lose the advantages of using CL
2021-01-25T17:38:42Z Josh_2: Say I have the symbol 'limit, which may or may not be bound, I need to construct a list like '("limit" <value of limit> ... )
2021-01-25T17:38:49Z nij: aeth: right, to rescue the structures.
2021-01-25T17:39:02Z beach: Josh_2: What's the ' about?
2021-01-25T17:39:03Z shka_: ok
2021-01-25T17:39:10Z beach: Josh_2: That's not part of a symbol.
2021-01-25T17:39:13Z mfiano: Josh_2: one way is (alexandria:format-symbol :keyword "~(~a~)" 'limit)
2021-01-25T17:39:15Z White_Flame: Josh_2: what do you mean by "bound" in this context?
2021-01-25T17:39:25Z mfiano: another is: (alexandria:make-keyword (string-downcase (symbol-name 'limit)))
2021-01-25T17:39:29Z shka_: Josh_2: so first of, symbol-name
2021-01-25T17:39:31Z mfiano: or just (intern ... :keyword)
2021-01-25T17:39:42Z Josh_2: (&key limit ..) It's parsed as an argument to the function right
2021-01-25T17:40:13Z Josh_2: I can maintain a list of corresponding symbols like (let ((args '(limit .. )))) and use those to check if my arguments are bound
2021-01-25T17:40:14Z White_Flame: if the keyword is not given in the function, the parameter is bound to the default, which is by default NIL
2021-01-25T17:40:22Z White_Flame: so it'll always be bound in the body of the functino
2021-01-25T17:40:40Z White_Flame: *not given in the function _call_
2021-01-25T17:41:09Z White_Flame: &key (varname [default [boundp-var]])
2021-01-25T17:41:17Z White_Flame: so you have a lot of control over detecting & defaulting things
2021-01-25T17:41:28Z Josh_2: right
2021-01-25T17:41:51Z Josh_2: this isn't my problem though, im trying to avoid having to write something like this
2021-01-25T17:42:01Z aeth: mfiano: eh... the thing is, alexandria:make-keyword is correct, but this sort of thing should probably be inline and alexandria's isn't, so it's justifiable to reinvent the wheel here imo
2021-01-25T17:42:37Z Josh_2: (when (boundp <var>) (setf mylist (append (list <mysymbolasstring> <symbol-value>)))) about 10 times
2021-01-25T17:42:49Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-25T17:43:14Z White_Flame: btw, you can just append your optional changes to the head of the default plist
2021-01-25T17:44:01Z White_Flame: eg, if defaults are (:a 1 :b 2), and you prepend your change so you end up with (:b 3 :a 1 :b 2), then :a = 1 and :b = 3.  the later value is overridden by the earlier value
2021-01-25T17:44:19Z Josh_2: the default is not bound
2021-01-25T17:44:20Z White_Flame: just like alists
2021-01-25T17:44:29Z Josh_2: If there is no value I don't want it included in my plist
2021-01-25T17:44:49Z White_Flame: then I think you just want to capture the &rest list of parameters?
2021-01-25T17:45:01Z Josh_2: yes I thought about that but It's less explicit
2021-01-25T17:45:37Z White_Flame: (defun foo (&rest all &key a b c) ...)
2021-01-25T17:45:51Z White_Flame: that still specifies & limits the parameters to just those keys
2021-01-25T17:46:06Z Josh_2: so how do I use all in this case?
2021-01-25T17:46:24Z White_Flame: it's just a variable that contains a list of the parameters from that point on
2021-01-25T17:46:57Z White_Flame: if the body is (values a b all), then (foo :a 1) => 1 nil (:a 1)
2021-01-25T17:47:12Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-25T17:47:17Z White_Flame: note no :b in the ALL list
2021-01-25T17:47:47Z White_Flame: but still bound individual values for A and B
2021-01-25T17:47:56Z White_Flame: (1 and NIL respectively)
2021-01-25T17:48:29Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:49:27Z Josh_2: thats perfect
2021-01-25T17:49:32Z Josh_2: thanks White_Flame
2021-01-25T17:49:45Z White_Flame: np, I'm glad the question was understood ;)
2021-01-25T17:49:46Z Josh_2: I didn't know I could do that
2021-01-25T17:49:56Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T17:50:02Z White_Flame: I've seen it around, don't think I've ever used it myself
2021-01-25T17:50:54Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:50:56Z Josh_2: In this case It's part of an API where you don't have to provide defaults, you just dont send the values
2021-01-25T17:51:31Z jrm: jackdaniel: Whatever you prefer.  It's also not difficult for us to package the latest from master.  If you could just share your plans, I'll adapt.  I just wanted to make sure we were offering what you (authors) felt was best for users.
2021-01-25T17:57:05Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T17:57:21Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-25T17:57:50Z [d] quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-25T17:57:57Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:05:57Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:08:39Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-25T18:10:05Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:11:39Z nij: After (slynk:create-server :port 1234 :dont-close t), how do I send code '(+ 1 1)' from my terminal to the repl? __ The DOC seems to be addressing how to connect the repl with a *remote* machine, which is even harder than my use-case. https://joaotavora.github.io/sly/#Connecting-to-a-remote-Lisp
2021-01-25T18:12:31Z nij: I'm hoping for something like emacs' `$ emacsclient -e '(kill-emacs)'`
2021-01-25T18:13:05Z nij: If you are familiar with slime, I'm glad to know how too. Thanks :)
2021-01-25T18:14:14Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T18:14:32Z White_Flame: the client to that socket is sly in emacs
2021-01-25T18:14:39Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:15:08Z pranavats: nij: Start emacs with sly loaded in your terminal. Run the command `sly-connect` and enter the correct port number.
2021-01-25T18:15:17Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T18:16:07Z nij: But I want to interact only with the terminal..
2021-01-25T18:16:11Z nij: that's possible?
2021-01-25T18:16:36Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:16:40Z White_Flame: that might be a question better suited for #emacs
2021-01-25T18:17:00Z White_Flame: since you're basically asking how to run elisp code from the terminal
2021-01-25T18:17:13Z nij: It seems that I must first go through emacs in order to touch sly right?
2021-01-25T18:17:14Z White_Flame: or, you'd have to figure out the raw socket protocol and reimplement it outside of elisp
2021-01-25T18:17:33Z White_Flame: sly runs in emacs, so yes
2021-01-25T18:17:43Z nij: AH..
2021-01-25T18:17:46Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:17:58Z nij: Then I should have just asked for interaction with the SBCL repl @@
2021-01-25T18:18:06Z nij: No wonder I couldn't find the answer.
2021-01-25T18:19:22Z pranavats: nij, Do you just want to run a lisp repl in a terminal locally?
2021-01-25T18:19:58Z pranavats: If so, you can check out cl-repl: https://github.com/koji-kojiro/cl-repl
2021-01-25T18:20:08Z nij: I want to have a lisp repl running in the background, and be able to send expressions to it from another terminal.
2021-01-25T18:21:31Z pranavats: Okay
2021-01-25T18:21:33Z bcachefs-newbie is now known as walex
2021-01-25T18:22:45Z White_Flame: could just do netcat to a plain socket listener, and EVAL :-P
2021-01-25T18:23:04Z nij: I don't know what those are @_@ ..
2021-01-25T18:23:04Z White_Flame: but if you want to run full sly, then you need emacs running
2021-01-25T18:23:19Z nij: Right. So s/sly/sbcl/
2021-01-25T18:23:37Z nij: I didn't mean sly.
2021-01-25T18:23:40Z White_Flame: netcat = shell piping to a network socket
2021-01-25T18:26:15Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:26:57Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T18:33:52Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:35:12Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:35:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T18:38:44Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-25T18:41:32Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-25T18:42:51Z puchacz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-25T18:43:09Z puchacz joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:43:57Z cyraxjoe quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-25T18:45:16Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:45:23Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:45:56Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T18:48:03Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T18:49:43Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-25T18:51:56Z cantstanya quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-25T18:51:56Z hendursaga quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-25T18:51:56Z gxt quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-25T18:51:56Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-25T18:51:56Z luckless quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-25T18:51:56Z madage quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-25T18:55:11Z arora quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-25T18:57:42Z [d]: <a​migojapan#0000> and my son were both born by sessarian section, I wonder if it coudl be cause both me and my dad are big people and our wifes were small
2021-01-25T18:57:43Z [d]: <a​migojapan#0000> [edit]:
2021-01-25T18:57:46Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-25T18:59:53Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:04:22Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T19:04:24Z flip214: nij: use the swank listener... that'll give you a frontend automatically
2021-01-25T19:07:17Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:07:18Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T19:07:47Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:15:41Z nij: flip214: does that rely on emacs?
2021-01-25T19:15:53Z nij: Or can I use an external terminal to control?
2021-01-25T19:16:27Z arora joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:16:34Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:18:14Z kpoeck joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:18:17Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:18:55Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T19:20:19Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:20:44Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-25T19:21:48Z aorst joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:22:10Z aorst is now known as andreyorst[m]
2021-01-25T19:22:17Z flip214: nij: swank is supported by emacs (with slime), vim (vlime or slimv), and a few other editors.
2021-01-25T19:22:59Z flip214: it's a whole protocol, though; if you want a telnet/readline style input, a simple socket might be better.
2021-01-25T19:23:20Z flip214: or, if you have an HTTP server (hunchentoot), why not make some easy-handler for that?
2021-01-25T19:23:26Z nij: :( I need to really learn this kinda networking thing well.
2021-01-25T19:23:50Z nij: I don't know what sockets, servers, telnet.. etc really are @@ Maybe that's why I cannot understand what I got.
2021-01-25T19:24:07Z nij: (Well.. I get a bit of taste of them. But I don't know what they *are*.)
2021-01-25T19:24:27Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T19:25:22Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T19:25:25Z White_Flame: yeah, emacs launches sbcl, tells sbcl to listen on a network socket, then connects to that to control it.  2 separate process connected via networking
2021-01-25T19:25:48Z White_Flame: the comms on that socket is the slime/swank protocol
2021-01-25T19:25:53Z flip214: or sbcl just runs somewhere and opens a socket in case someone wants to talk to it
2021-01-25T19:25:58Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T19:26:02Z White_Flame: right
2021-01-25T19:26:04Z nij: flip214: I think I want this.
2021-01-25T19:26:11Z White_Flame: I'm sure there are examples out there of having a network-based plain text repl
2021-01-25T19:26:15Z nij: How to let sbcl opens a socket for some one to talk to it?
2021-01-25T19:27:06Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:27:16Z White_Flame: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Networking
2021-01-25T19:27:17Z flip214: via swank is the preferred solution ;)    but that's not a plain-text protocol, but RPC.
2021-01-25T19:27:18Z Xach: nij: man 7 tcp and man 7 udp have some reference material about the underlying functinos. SBCL exposes functions by the same names to enable networking.
2021-01-25T19:27:25Z White_Flame: but there are compatibility libs that are more often used that wrap implementation specifics
2021-01-25T19:27:25Z Xach: functions, rather.
2021-01-25T19:27:56Z White_Flame: nij: what is your overall use case, just testing stuff?
2021-01-25T19:28:57Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-25T19:30:48Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:30:48Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T19:30:57Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T19:31:05Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T19:31:50Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:31:53Z arora quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T19:31:54Z nij: White_Flame: To launch cl scripts by pressing keybindings through WM.
2021-01-25T19:32:03Z nij: (without making them into executables)
2021-01-25T19:32:28Z nij: White_Flame: Oh! The thing I was looking for is called Networking!
2021-01-25T19:32:39Z nij: I thought that only applies to me connecting to the internet.
2021-01-25T19:32:46Z nij: (or to some other computers)
2021-01-25T19:33:35Z nij: Xach thank you! Lemme try to read them :)
2021-01-25T19:35:13Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:38:06Z White_Flame: uh, just have your keybindings launch sbcl to run .lisp files?
2021-01-25T19:38:34Z White_Flame: it has a few cmdline options for running literal forms, or .lisp files
2021-01-25T19:38:35Z nij: White_Flame: Hopefully sbcl can be running all the time, waiting for my command @@
2021-01-25T19:38:41Z White_Flame: why?
2021-01-25T19:38:54Z White_Flame: I guess if you need to retain state
2021-01-25T19:39:08Z nij: yeah. retain state, start time.. etc
2021-01-25T19:39:36Z nij: For some script I even want them to be checking every 5 seconds.
2021-01-25T19:40:35Z White_Flame: a valid but lamer approach that avoids learning networking (it's complex if you've never done it, in any language) would be for the daemon lisp to just scan for some file, and read/eval it if one appears
2021-01-25T19:40:54Z White_Flame: with your keybindings writing a small trigger file containing what you want to run
2021-01-25T19:41:28Z Xach: i've used that kind of approach before and it is nice and simple.
2021-01-25T19:42:00Z logand joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:42:08Z nij: How does the keybinding affect the daemon?
2021-01-25T19:42:19Z nij: OH
2021-01-25T19:42:20Z nij: I see.
2021-01-25T19:42:30Z nij: I will do that if I fail learning networking.
2021-01-25T19:42:37Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:42:55Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-25T19:43:31Z Xach: You won't fail! It just might take a while. And there are other options that might get you somewhere interesting quickly while still leaving time to learn more things.
2021-01-25T19:43:53Z Anonymous_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T19:44:34Z nij: Xach: I really appreatiate your encouragement :-)
2021-01-25T19:45:05Z Krystof quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T19:46:12Z White_Flame: the biggest thing that messes people up when doing TCP (the stream form of networking, most common), is that when you receive bytes from the stream, it may not be an entire message at once, but some overlapping part
2021-01-25T19:46:19Z Anonymous_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T19:46:32Z White_Flame: other than that, it's just getting the listeners & per-connection stuff organized
2021-01-25T19:46:50Z Xach: i think "overlapping" is a little unfortunate wording there? maybe "partial"?
2021-01-25T19:46:58Z Xach: you will never get the same data more than once
2021-01-25T19:47:03Z White_Flame: I think that usocket is one of the more popular libraries for running the networking for you, and has examples
2021-01-25T19:47:29Z White_Flame: I mean the packet could overlap between 2 messages that the other side sent from its code perspective
2021-01-25T19:47:40Z Xach: if the remote end sends "ABC", you may get "A" or "AB" or "ABC", but not "AABC" or "AB" "BC"
2021-01-25T19:47:53Z White_Flame: the packet overlaps the individual message data chunks you sent per output call on the other side
2021-01-25T19:49:35Z White_Flame: nij: "trivial-sockets is a trivial networking library for undemanding Internet applications (for example "scripting" and interactive use)."
2021-01-25T19:51:31Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-25T19:53:42Z nij: I understand that there are four things to be considered: server's addr+port and client's addr+port.
2021-01-25T19:53:55Z nij: But what I'm aiming for here has only one machine..
2021-01-25T19:54:31Z nij: Ah! On one machine there can be many servers!
2021-01-25T19:54:53Z nij: So I should check if I can get a list of running servers on my arch laptop.
2021-01-25T19:54:54Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:02:31Z Krystof joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:02:43Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T20:03:53Z White_Flame: machine is 127.0.0.1
2021-01-25T20:04:39Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:04:44Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:06:18Z ralt: _death: do you remember if unix FD passing was implemented in dbus?
2021-01-25T20:06:20Z puchacz joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:08:49Z nij: White_Flame: I'm trying trivial-sockets. Currently running the loop: https://bpa.st/VLBUE  provided in the example usage.
2021-01-25T20:09:14Z nij: Does this mean that my sbcl repl has opened a socket that awaits any message from the outside?
2021-01-25T20:09:43Z nij: If so, how to send message from the outside to the repl?
2021-01-25T20:09:52Z White_Flame: from the shell, `netcat localhost 8913` and start typing stuff
2021-01-25T20:10:11Z White_Flame: that opens up a socket and connects it to stdin/stdout from there
2021-01-25T20:10:42Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:11:36Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:11:52Z nij: Moly! It works.
2021-01-25T20:12:01Z White_Flame: note that that example doesn't do anything with the read-line return value, so your shell typing is ignored, besides the fact that there's a line
2021-01-25T20:12:09Z nij: Right.
2021-01-25T20:12:31Z nij: netcat also closes itself after one interaction
2021-01-25T20:12:34Z nij: but that's good enough
2021-01-25T20:12:49Z nij: I only have to let sbcl know what I typed from the netcat side!
2021-01-25T20:12:56Z White_Flame: there's no loop in the example.  once it exits the with-open-stream scope, that closes it from teh lisp side
2021-01-25T20:13:46Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:14:25Z nij: Indeed <3 I changed (format c ..) to (loop (format c ..)) and now it loops <3
2021-01-25T20:14:59Z White_Flame: (format t "Result: ~s~%" (eval (read-line c)))
2021-01-25T20:15:13Z White_Flame: (eval (read (read-line c)))
2021-01-25T20:15:20Z White_Flame: need an ignore-errors in there somewhere, too
2021-01-25T20:15:49Z White_Flame: eh, (eval (read c)).  ;; haven't done this in a while ;)
2021-01-25T20:16:31Z cantstanya joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:17:54Z jackdaniel: (loop (print (eval (read c))))
2021-01-25T20:18:13Z nij: <3 <3 <3 <3
2021-01-25T20:18:15Z nij: finally.
2021-01-25T20:18:20Z White_Flame: the fact that the example had a string in its current form muddled it slightly :)
2021-01-25T20:18:41Z nij: White_Flame: Yeah. I find the logic behind it finally.
2021-01-25T20:18:48Z nij: Seeing it works is always the best way to learn.
2021-01-25T20:24:13Z dvdmuckle quit (Quit: Bouncer Surgery)
2021-01-25T20:25:28Z wsinatra_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T20:27:16Z dvdmuckle joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:27:28Z kpoeck quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-25T20:27:33Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T20:30:36Z nij: Thanks White_Flame jackdaniel <3
2021-01-25T20:30:45Z White_Flame: np, enjoy!
2021-01-25T20:31:21Z jackdaniel: I want to note, that I was only addressing what White_Flame wrote (I did not try to answer any question)
2021-01-25T20:31:33Z jackdaniel: but I'm glad you've found that remark helpful
2021-01-25T20:32:21Z White_Flame: but nice output formatting, and capturing errors, and lots of other things quickly get away from a small literal (l(p(e(r str)))) body
2021-01-25T20:33:57Z nij: jackdaniel: yeah that remark definitely completes it xD
2021-01-25T20:34:24Z nij: White_Flame: yeah i'm aware of that!
2021-01-25T20:34:38Z nij: I can move forward finally at least, after seeing it works.
2021-01-25T20:38:08Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:39:36Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T20:40:10Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:41:26Z nij left #lisp
2021-01-25T20:41:53Z caret quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-25T20:45:33Z kpoeck joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:51:10Z gargaml joined #lisp
2021-01-25T20:51:13Z gargaml quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-25T20:57:35Z [d]: <a​rryana#0000> ahhaahh, they;re tribbles
2021-01-25T20:57:36Z [d]: <a​rryana#0000> [edit]:
2021-01-25T20:58:06Z phoe: okay - where is [d] bridged to and how do I contact their moderation team?
2021-01-25T20:59:20Z Bike: ircname: discord. well, alright
2021-01-25T20:59:43Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-25T21:00:01Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:00:27Z phoe: yes, this tells me nothing
2021-01-25T21:00:58Z phoe: I've seen it burp out unrelated lines three times now, each time with that spammy edit line right afterwards
2021-01-25T21:01:19Z phoe: I think this warrants muting it because of misconfiguration for the time being.
2021-01-25T21:02:48Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T21:03:19Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:06:14Z drl joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:06:42Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T21:10:26Z enzuru joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:11:56Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-25T21:12:15Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T21:12:20Z puchacz joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:12:53Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:18:33Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T21:19:16Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:20:33Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-25T21:21:04Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:21:09Z luckless quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-25T21:22:00Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:27:26Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-25T21:27:56Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:29:25Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T21:31:06Z rpg joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:31:44Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:33:56Z cage__ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:36:40Z cage_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T21:36:46Z mgsk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T21:36:48Z kilimanjaro quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T21:37:03Z mjl_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:37:05Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:37:09Z alanz quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T21:37:14Z splittist quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T21:37:14Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T21:37:14Z splittist_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:37:15Z mjl_ is now known as mjl
2021-01-25T21:37:22Z jerme_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T21:37:35Z mgsk joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:38:26Z yonkunas_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:38:26Z yonkunas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T21:38:27Z yonkunas_ is now known as yonkunas
2021-01-25T21:38:28Z alanz joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:39:06Z jerme_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:40:15Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:47:10Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-25T21:48:29Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:51:55Z vutral_ quit (Changing host)
2021-01-25T21:51:55Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:52:43Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:56:06Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-25T21:57:51Z [d] quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-25T21:57:58Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-25T21:59:47Z cage__ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-25T22:01:30Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-25T22:04:36Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T22:07:56Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-25T22:09:18Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T22:16:02Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-25T22:16:17Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T22:18:38Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T22:21:03Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-25T22:21:50Z surabax_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-25T22:26:43Z jumping_sloth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-25T22:27:03Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-25T22:27:17Z brandflake11 joined #lisp
2021-01-25T22:27:52Z jrm: jackdaniel: I just updated the package to the latest master-branch commit. https://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports?view=revision&revision=562613
2021-01-25T22:28:18Z brandflake11: Hey all, can you move your ~/quicklisp and ~/.sbclrc to another computer and it work seamlessly?
2021-01-25T22:28:35Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T22:28:41Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-25T22:32:20Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-25T22:35:10Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-25T22:35:17Z judson_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-25T22:36:33Z phoe: I guess so, yes
2021-01-25T22:38:02Z Xach: brandflake11: quicklisp sure, .sbclrc who knows? depends what's in it.
2021-01-25T22:38:13Z Xach: if .sbclrc just loads quicklisp/setup.lisp, then sure.
2021-01-25T22:38:30Z Xach: also, if quicklisp/ has symlinks somewhere, they won't come along without work.
2021-01-25T22:40:15Z judson_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T22:44:26Z judson_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T22:46:30Z waleee-cl: do the instructions from http://joaotavora.github.io/sly/#Loading-Slynk-faster (specifically for the "slynk core") work? I've tried having the core in both implicit paths and specifiying an absolute path,  but I get polling errors when starting sly either way
2021-01-25T22:46:36Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T22:46:37Z mbomba joined #lisp
2021-01-25T22:48:26Z waleee-cl: ah. Not absolute enough in the path apparently
2021-01-25T22:49:03Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-25T22:51:00Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-25T22:53:56Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-25T22:54:33Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T22:58:34Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T22:58:56Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T23:03:13Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:04:07Z Codaraxis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-25T23:04:46Z puchacz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-25T23:04:59Z mbomba quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-25T23:05:03Z charles`: Is there a way to get a list of super types for a given type?
2021-01-25T23:08:23Z Bike: there are infinitely many supertypes
2021-01-25T23:08:38Z Bike: if you have a _class_, though, you can get the class precedence list of superclasses
2021-01-25T23:08:48Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T23:11:03Z brandflake11: phoe: Xach: Thanks for the help with my question! I appreciate it!
2021-01-25T23:13:10Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:13:29Z ljavorsk quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T23:14:42Z kpoeck quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-25T23:15:02Z charles`: how is there infinitely many? Do types (not classes) not actually use inheritance?
2021-01-25T23:16:13Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-25T23:16:16Z Bike: types just represent sets. (member 4 5 6) is the type of numbers that are 4 or 5 or 6. you can always augment a type with OR and MEMBER and stuff. so no, they don't involve inheritance per se.
2021-01-25T23:16:33Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:19:03Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T23:19:06Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:23:22Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T23:24:04Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T23:24:32Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:25:43Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T23:26:53Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-25T23:27:18Z charles`: I see, then how would I get a list of super-classes (of a class) in a portable way?
2021-01-25T23:27:38Z phoe: mopu:superclasses
2021-01-25T23:27:44Z phoe: from moptilities
2021-01-25T23:27:50Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-25T23:29:12Z alandipert: typep seems like the ultimate method specializer, i wonder why there's only eql. perf?
2021-01-25T23:30:14Z alandipert: hm, i suppose also the infinitude of the type relationships might make method selection too ambiguous
2021-01-25T23:30:32Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-25T23:31:01Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:32:02Z charles`: nice, thanks phoe
2021-01-25T23:35:01Z mindCrime quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T23:35:45Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T23:35:54Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:36:01Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:37:36Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-25T23:37:43Z Bike: alandipert: that's the problem, yes. classes are linearly ordered into class precedence lists, so it's easy to see which methods are more specialized than others.
2021-01-25T23:38:39Z Bike: for example if you had a method specialized on (member :a :b) and another on (member :b :c) and you called it with :b it would not be obvious what is called.
2021-01-25T23:39:46Z alandipert: hm, wouldn't that particular case be true of two eql :b methods though?
2021-01-25T23:40:17Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-25T23:40:36Z enzuru joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:41:14Z Bike: i don't understand what you mean.
2021-01-25T23:41:27Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-25T23:41:51Z Bike: you can't have two distinct methods that have the same qualifiers and the same specializers.
2021-01-25T23:42:29Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-25T23:43:01Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:43:41Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-25T23:44:21Z alandipert: oh sorry, and yes, that's the part i was missing. thanks
2021-01-25T23:50:14Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:50:43Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-25T23:51:12Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:53:20Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-25T23:54:59Z andreyorst[m] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-25T23:57:48Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-25T23:59:17Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T00:00:07Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T00:00:18Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T00:01:07Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T00:05:40Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T00:06:37Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T00:08:53Z brandflake11 left #lisp
2021-01-26T00:09:14Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-26T00:10:47Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-26T00:15:05Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T00:15:18Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T00:15:51Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-26T00:16:58Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T00:28:13Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T00:37:59Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-26T00:50:09Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T00:52:21Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T00:53:52Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T00:55:05Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-26T01:04:44Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-26T01:05:18Z nij: It's nice to be able to define printing function for cl-structs. However, sometimes I want to see its raw presentation (record-like). Can I temporarily disable the printing function?
2021-01-26T01:08:49Z Xach: nij: you can, but it's often easier to use DESCRIBE or an inspector instead.
2021-01-26T01:09:06Z Xach: nij: like (describe instance)
2021-01-26T01:09:38Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T01:09:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T01:10:26Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T01:11:24Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-26T01:15:31Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T01:17:25Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-26T01:20:35Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T01:28:28Z nij: I see! Thank you :)
2021-01-26T01:29:41Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T01:29:59Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-26T01:30:34Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-26T01:32:31Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T01:33:34Z dddddd joined #lisp
2021-01-26T01:34:37Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T01:36:15Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-26T01:46:44Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T01:50:05Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T01:58:02Z Anonymous_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T02:00:02Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T02:00:41Z dddddd joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:04:04Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:04:04Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T02:08:03Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:12:11Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:12:11Z ym_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T02:12:16Z ym joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:14:52Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T02:17:00Z mr-iznogud joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:27:29Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T02:28:59Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:32:57Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T02:35:16Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-26T02:37:41Z dddddd joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:38:01Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T02:42:41Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:44:17Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:44:53Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T02:49:46Z logand` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:50:33Z luis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:52:25Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T02:53:23Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T02:56:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T02:58:32Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-26T02:59:14Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T03:00:02Z antonv joined #lisp
2021-01-26T03:00:06Z antonv: hi
2021-01-26T03:00:20Z charles`: Good morning
2021-01-26T03:00:26Z antonv: in ASDF, if my system consists of several files, each file depends on differend libraries
2021-01-26T03:00:52Z antonv: can I expresse that?
2021-01-26T03:01:15Z charles`: I don't see a need to. the whole system depends on all of them
2021-01-26T03:01:34Z charles`: You could make different files different systems
2021-01-26T03:01:46Z antonv: when I remove one of the files, I want to know what to remove from dependencies
2021-01-26T03:02:08Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T03:02:12Z antonv: creating separate .asd file for every .lisp file - not desirable
2021-01-26T03:02:31Z antonv: And I haven't learned yet how to use package-inferred-systrems
2021-01-26T03:02:50Z krkini is now known as kini
2021-01-26T03:04:29Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T03:09:25Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T03:13:09Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T03:15:55Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T03:19:42Z dddddd joined #lisp
2021-01-26T03:20:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: alandipert: there has been some work done to make extensible specifiers
2021-01-26T03:20:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it's been partly merged into sbcl's clos implementation
2021-01-26T03:22:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's some examples here: http://christophe.rhodes.io/gitweb/?p=specializable.git;a=tree;f=examples
2021-01-26T03:23:17Z Anonymous_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T03:24:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: And a paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/1403.2765
2021-01-26T03:25:45Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-26T03:27:26Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T03:27:58Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-26T03:32:14Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T03:34:16Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T03:40:06Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-26T03:40:30Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-26T03:46:54Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-26T03:47:49Z charles`: (6 = (18 - (4 * (1 + 2)))) => T
2021-01-26T03:57:17Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T03:58:09Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T04:01:26Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:01:39Z pagnol joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:03:37Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:03:50Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:05:07Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T04:09:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-26T04:10:53Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T04:10:53Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T04:11:12Z minion joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:11:14Z specbot joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:11:24Z penguwin quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-26T04:12:26Z penguwin joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:12:29Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-26T04:12:39Z jrm quit (Quit: ciao)
2021-01-26T04:12:58Z jrm joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:16:21Z HiRE_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:19:43Z HiRE quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T04:21:34Z charles`: Good morning to beach
2021-01-26T04:22:39Z drl quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T04:25:44Z kapil_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:26:57Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:28:01Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T04:28:52Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T04:29:39Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T04:34:56Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T04:35:54Z kapil_ quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2021-01-26T04:36:03Z kapil_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:52:52Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:56:02Z Posterdati joined #lisp
2021-01-26T04:58:04Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-26T05:02:16Z antonv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T05:05:11Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-26T05:05:41Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T05:06:12Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-26T05:08:23Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T05:12:58Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-26T05:17:56Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T05:20:18Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-26T05:20:55Z Nilby` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T05:23:05Z kapil_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T05:23:52Z kapil_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T05:24:49Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T05:37:07Z winny is now known as wInNy
2021-01-26T05:46:01Z andreyorst_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T05:48:33Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T05:49:19Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-26T05:53:33Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-26T06:12:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T06:14:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-26T06:19:12Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T06:19:41Z zyz__ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T06:20:07Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T06:20:49Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T06:22:51Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T06:35:42Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-26T06:36:49Z mrchampion quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T06:42:25Z DGASAU joined #lisp
2021-01-26T06:44:41Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-26T06:47:21Z johnjay quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T06:48:47Z johnjay joined #lisp
2021-01-26T06:54:19Z jumping_sloth joined #lisp
2021-01-26T06:55:16Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T06:55:28Z yonkunas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T06:55:29Z leo_song joined #lisp
2021-01-26T06:55:39Z yonkunas joined #lisp
2021-01-26T06:56:28Z banjiewen__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T06:56:31Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T06:57:25Z banjiewen__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:01:52Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:03:37Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:03:38Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T07:04:07Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:05:55Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T07:10:34Z phadthai joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:10:41Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:17:42Z frgo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:19:23Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T07:19:57Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T07:24:09Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:24:14Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:24:25Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:25:25Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:25:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:25:47Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T07:26:35Z asarch joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:26:44Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T07:27:04Z asarch: What :element-type should I use for an array of boolean values?
2021-01-26T07:28:09Z beach: asarch: I would probably use BIT and test for 0/1.  Otherwise, you get a full word for each value.
2021-01-26T07:28:41Z asarch: 'bit? Ok!
2021-01-26T07:29:25Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T07:29:35Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:31:44Z asarch: And how would I set the :initial-element to nil?
2021-01-26T07:31:59Z asarch: It seems that the 'bit doesn't like the nil value as initial element
2021-01-26T07:32:12Z beach: asarch: BIT means 0 or 1, so NIL won't qualify.
2021-01-26T07:32:37Z beach: Like I said, if you want NIL, you get a full word for each element.  You can do that if you want, but the element type would then be T.
2021-01-26T07:32:46Z asarch: So, what type should I use for :initial-element nil?
2021-01-26T07:33:16Z asarch: Yeah, I only want T and NIL in the arrau
2021-01-26T07:33:19Z asarch: *array
2021-01-26T07:33:26Z beach: OK, good luck then.
2021-01-26T07:33:32Z asarch: !?
2021-01-26T07:34:10Z asarch: So, what should I use in the :element-type value?
2021-01-26T07:34:30Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:34:37Z beach: If your choices are 0 or 1, I don't see what the problem is, and I don't see why you would choose NIL.
2021-01-26T07:35:07Z beach: If you want NIL in there, then since NIL is a symbol, you will have an array of element type T.
2021-01-26T07:35:27Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:35:32Z asarch: Ok, ok. Sorry, sorry. Let's start again
2021-01-26T07:35:32Z beach: It is very unlikely that your Common Lisp implementation has a Boolean element type for arrays.
2021-01-26T07:35:55Z asarch: I only want an array of 35 elements of Ts and NILs
2021-01-26T07:36:21Z beach: Then use element-type T which is the default.
2021-01-26T07:36:33Z asarch: Ok. Thank you!
2021-01-26T07:42:36Z [d] quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-26T07:42:42Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:42:43Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T07:43:06Z asarch: One last stupid question: how would I get a full-created array with the 35 elements with nil so I could randomly (setf (elt my-array some-random-index) t)?
2021-01-26T07:43:15Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-26T07:43:32Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-26T07:43:44Z asarch: I got: "Invalid index 3 for (VECTOR T 35) with fill-pointer 0, should be a non-negative integer below 0."
2021-01-26T07:44:08Z beach: Why do you set your fill pointer to 0.
2021-01-26T07:44:34Z beach: (make-array 35 :initial-element nil)
2021-01-26T07:45:09Z beach: Then (setf (aref * (random 35)) t) I would think.
2021-01-26T07:46:08Z asarch: I do (setf (elt my-array 3) t) and I get: Invalid index 3 for (VECTOR T 35) with fill-pointer 0, should be a non-negative integer below 0.
2021-01-26T07:46:19Z asarch: ?
2021-01-26T07:47:08Z asarch: I use: (my-array (make-array the-size :adjustable t :initial-element nil :element-type 'T :fill-pointer 0))
2021-01-26T07:47:30Z beach: Why do you set the fill pointer?
2021-01-26T07:47:34Z asarch: Because, among other things, I also want the array 'expandable'
2021-01-26T07:47:41Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:47:46Z asarch: I got from PCL
2021-01-26T07:48:45Z beach: asarch: ELT obeys the fill pointer, so if you set it to 0, that means your array has 0 elements in it.
2021-01-26T07:48:55Z beach: ... as far as elt is concerned.
2021-01-26T07:49:24Z asarch: And mostly because I get: #(NIL NIL T T NIL T NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL ...) is not an array with a fill pointer.
2021-01-26T07:49:41Z asarch: Oh
2021-01-26T07:50:22Z asarch: So, how would create an array with 35 initial element set it to nil with the possibility that the array could increase its size dynamically?
2021-01-26T07:50:38Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:50:41Z asarch: *how would you...
2021-01-26T07:51:33Z beach: You could use AREF which doesn't take the fill pointer into account, or you could not have a fill pointer.
2021-01-26T07:52:18Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:52:48Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-26T07:52:52Z asarch: Ok
2021-01-26T07:53:56Z beach: ... or you can set the fill pointer to T when you create the array.  Then it will be the same as the size of the array initially.
2021-01-26T07:55:09Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T07:55:37Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:55:46Z asarch: Thank you!
2021-01-26T07:55:51Z asarch: Thank you very much!
2021-01-26T07:56:12Z asarch: Array: #(NIL NIL T T NIL T NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL T NIL NIL T NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL NIL)
2021-01-26T07:56:15Z asarch: That worked!
2021-01-26T07:56:31Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:56:48Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-26T07:58:07Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T07:59:03Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T08:00:32Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:01:16Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T08:01:31Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:01:50Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:03:39Z DGASAU joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:06:10Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T08:08:07Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T08:10:10Z n3t quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-26T08:11:00Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:12:38Z arora joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:17:45Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:19:59Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:19:59Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T08:20:23Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:20:25Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T08:21:05Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:21:23Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T08:21:48Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T08:22:00Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:24:15Z n3t joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:24:23Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:26:24Z theothornhill quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-26T08:26:38Z theothor` left #lisp
2021-01-26T08:27:00Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:27:10Z theothor` left #lisp
2021-01-26T08:28:09Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T08:28:30Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:30:52Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:31:41Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:32:22Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:32:37Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:34:03Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T08:34:04Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-26T08:35:28Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T08:35:48Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T08:45:07Z ralt: anyone knows a library that can be used to send/receive file descriptors over unix sockets? Using ancillary data. I'm fine if it's sbcl specific.
2021-01-26T08:51:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:52:40Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-26T08:55:26Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T08:56:05Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T08:57:24Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T08:57:49Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:00:07Z keizerrijk[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-26T09:02:30Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T09:06:03Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:09:31Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-26T09:11:00Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T09:12:08Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:13:30Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T09:13:43Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T09:14:44Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:15:03Z DGASAU joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:15:07Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T09:17:42Z _linker_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:23:35Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T09:25:47Z madand joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:28:25Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T09:30:04Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:36:30Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-26T09:37:29Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-26T09:40:07Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:41:43Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:42:16Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T09:42:46Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:45:57Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-26T09:51:19Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:52:21Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:53:00Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T09:53:23Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T09:54:14Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:56:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T09:58:28Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-26T09:59:20Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:01:50Z Posterdati joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:03:16Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T10:04:56Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T10:09:08Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T10:11:10Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:11:36Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T10:15:32Z Posterdati joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:15:49Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T10:19:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:19:26Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:20:55Z attila_lendvai quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T10:21:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:21:07Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-26T10:21:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:21:16Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T10:21:16Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-26T10:23:47Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T10:24:00Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:24:02Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T10:25:31Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:26:17Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:26:43Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:32:15Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T10:32:32Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie)
2021-01-26T10:32:37Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:32:38Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host)
2021-01-26T10:32:38Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:32:46Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:41:00Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:46:29Z Nilby` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T10:48:41Z DGASAU joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:50:33Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-26T10:51:41Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:55:37Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T10:55:56Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-26T10:56:15Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-26T10:58:14Z Codaraxis_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T10:58:22Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:00:06Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-26T11:05:05Z Stanley00 quit
2021-01-26T11:07:15Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:07:52Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T11:07:53Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-26T11:08:37Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-26T11:09:48Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:10:51Z jumping_sloth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T11:14:01Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:14:32Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T11:15:43Z theothornhill left #lisp
2021-01-26T11:15:58Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:16:15Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:19:41Z dieggsy quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:41Z deselby quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:41Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:41Z jdormit[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:41Z even4void[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:42Z ThaEwat quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:42Z chipk[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:42Z santiagopim[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:42Z loke[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:43Z dmiles[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:43Z susam quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:43Z quanta[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:44Z skye0[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:44Z arichiardi[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:44Z christopheroei[m quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:45Z solideogloria[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:45Z ecm quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:45Z anotherone9999[m quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:45Z jonas[m]2 quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:45Z stargazesparkle quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:45Z ey[m]2 quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:51Z etimmons quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:53Z infra_red[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:54Z ms[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:55Z ey[m]1 quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:19:56Z Lolicon[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:20:14Z katco quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:20:14Z posthuman_egrego quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:20:14Z kaisyu[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:20:14Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:20:15Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-26T11:22:16Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 262 seconds)
2021-01-26T11:22:31Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T11:23:16Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:28:44Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:29:16Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:31:16Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T11:31:25Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:32:08Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:42:24Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:48:15Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T11:52:47Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:54:01Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T11:55:03Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:26Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:26Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:26Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:26Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:27Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:27Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:27Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:27Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:27Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:27Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:27Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:27Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:27Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:27Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:27Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:28Z skye0[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:28Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:28Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:28Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:28Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:28Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:32Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:33Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:33Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:33Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:33Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:34Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:34Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:35Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:35Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-26T11:55:37Z dim: hi there!
2021-01-26T11:56:09Z dim: beach: I'm trying to find your protocol document pdf where you explain how to implement protocols first, you have authored such a doc right?
2021-01-26T11:57:37Z beach: I have a chapter of a book that explains what a protocol is.  But nothing else I think.
2021-01-26T11:58:36Z beach: Maybe phoe has something.
2021-01-26T11:59:15Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-26T11:59:50Z beach: http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf
2021-01-26T12:01:21Z dim: thanks I think that's what I had in mind
2021-01-26T12:02:02Z dim: context: a friend of mine is trying to figure out how CL would approach the async situation that Python finds itself into nowadays, and I'm like, you know, we don't need any language-level decision making, any lib could do that
2021-01-26T12:02:03Z beach: Great!
2021-01-26T12:02:15Z dim: and I think that the protocol ideas might help my friend better grasp what I mean
2021-01-26T12:02:31Z dim: you could easily have an async protocol or even just a protocol implementation that is async
2021-01-26T12:03:29Z beach: I am afraid I don't know what the "async situation that Python finds itself into" is.
2021-01-26T12:05:36Z jackdaniel: dim: do you mean a situation, where you have a protocol i.e for a mailbox, and that protocol could have a thread-safe implementation and a simpler implementation that works only in a single thread?
2021-01-26T12:07:26Z dim: beach: I'm still trying to figure out what my friend means here, it seems to be both a syntax issue and a semantics issue, where you have to use what the core developers of the language have designed
2021-01-26T12:08:10Z beach: Hmm.
2021-01-26T12:08:14Z dim: in that case, methods have to be declared async and then return with the await keyword in their source, and the caller then must use another keyword to plug into the event loop of async stuff, if I understand correctly
2021-01-26T12:08:25Z dim: I don't think we can easily relate to anything like that in CL
2021-01-26T12:08:45Z beach: That chapter merely specifies a generalization of an interface.
2021-01-26T12:08:55Z beach: It has nothing to do with async anything.
2021-01-26T12:09:00Z dim: the most comparable thing to me would be providing the same protocol with both a sync and an async implementation and the caller would have to pick one at call time
2021-01-26T12:09:04Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-26T12:09:21Z dim: jackdaniel: not sure, sounds relevant
2021-01-26T12:09:54Z _linker_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T12:09:55Z dim: but I think my friend is curious more about the language itself somehow, well, let's be honest, I'm lost here ;-)
2021-01-26T12:10:03Z perrier-jouet quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T12:10:04Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T12:11:22Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-26T12:14:19Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T12:15:26Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-26T12:20:16Z pagnol quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T12:27:11Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T12:27:12Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-26T12:27:35Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T12:28:38Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T12:31:52Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T12:33:07Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T12:34:09Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-26T12:37:10Z mrios22 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T12:39:48Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-26T12:40:01Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T12:41:36Z dbotton quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-26T12:43:09Z ralt: dim: you're talking about colored functions?
2021-01-26T12:43:40Z dim: I don't know what that is
2021-01-26T12:43:55Z flip214: ralt: you want colored bits next too, right?
2021-01-26T12:44:00Z ralt: dim: either way, you might be interested in https://orthecreedence.github.io/cl-async/2013/03/26/green-threads-and-async-programming.html
2021-01-26T12:44:10Z ralt: dim: async/await are "colored" functions
2021-01-26T12:44:40Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T12:44:53Z ralt: https://quuxplusone.github.io/blog/2018/03/16/async-roundup/
2021-01-26T12:46:04Z dim: thanks ralt!
2021-01-26T12:47:26Z jmercouris: phoe: how did you connect with GDB to get this output on this issue: https://github.com/commonqt/commonqt/issues/34  ?
2021-01-26T12:47:58Z jmercouris: could this also be done via LDB?
2021-01-26T12:48:58Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T12:50:16Z amb007 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T12:52:06Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T12:53:29Z troydm joined #lisp
2021-01-26T12:53:51Z skapate joined #lisp
2021-01-26T12:54:06Z skapata quit (Killed (adams.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
2021-01-26T12:54:07Z skapate is now known as skapata
2021-01-26T12:55:03Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-26T12:58:42Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:01:14Z phoe: jmercouris: I don't remember anymore, but I think attaching a debugger is standard stuff
2021-01-26T13:02:03Z jmercouris: I was wondering how you got some symbols
2021-01-26T13:02:20Z jmercouris: I know how to attach the debugger, I didn't think there would be any other information than some memory addresses though
2021-01-26T13:02:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T13:05:12Z ralt: dim: in general, lisp doesn't have a great story w.r.t. async though
2021-01-26T13:08:34Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T13:11:50Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:15:31Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:16:16Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:16:51Z VincentVega: Is there a library that would do permutations directly on lists out of the box? E.g. (1 2 3) with length 2 -> ((1 2) (2 1) (1 3) (3 1) etc). I found cl-permutation, but it just permutes numbers, and I don't want to convert a list into a vector and all that. And it also doesn't seem to support length, unless its larger than the permutation size. I
2021-01-26T13:16:52Z VincentVega: can see some other math libraries on cliki, but the immediately relevant ones I could identify are not on quicklisp, but maybe someone happens to know one that I am not seeing?
2021-01-26T13:19:14Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: how about (alexandria:map-permutations #'print (list 1 2 3) :length 2 :copy nil) ;?
2021-01-26T13:20:25Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:20:52Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T13:20:58Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: great, thank you!
2021-01-26T13:21:02Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-01-26T13:25:55Z gxt quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-26T13:30:09Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:33:26Z Vultyre quit
2021-01-26T13:35:19Z ralt: sounds like a valid usage for #'identity
2021-01-26T13:35:36Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:37:01Z jackdaniel: ralt: afaik this function returns nil
2021-01-26T13:37:11Z ralt: bummer
2021-01-26T13:37:43Z StargazerZZZ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:37:55Z jackdaniel: I don't know whether it keeps all permutations in the memory, but in principle it should not to avoid blowing the heap when working on somewhat big sequences
2021-01-26T13:38:04Z jackdaniel: and in that case it could not cons up the results either
2021-01-26T13:38:23Z Vultyre quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-26T13:39:25Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:45:35Z flip214: you can just have (lambda (x) (push x my-list)) instead of #'print to accumulate the results
2021-01-26T13:45:42Z jackdaniel: yes
2021-01-26T13:46:09Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:48:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:49:06Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:50:07Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:50:27Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:52:56Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T13:53:03Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:53:08Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T13:53:35Z StargazerZZZ quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-26T13:54:36Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:55:11Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-26T13:59:17Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T13:59:21Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-26T14:01:52Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:05:21Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-26T14:06:08Z jdz: VincentVega: I'd also suggest looking into screamer, where working with permutations would not require consing up all the results first.
2021-01-26T14:06:54Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:08:25Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T14:09:33Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:10:21Z nij: Any function that lifts arrows to list?
2021-01-26T14:10:37Z nij: Eg. (-> 1 (+ 1) (* 2)) => 4
2021-01-26T14:10:41Z nij: I'm thinking of
2021-01-26T14:10:58Z nij: (m-> (1 3) (+ 1) (* 2)) => (4 8)
2021-01-26T14:11:13Z nij: (in-package :arrows)
2021-01-26T14:13:45Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:14:47Z phoe: nij: I'd rather mapcar a single-arg function over a list
2021-01-26T14:15:05Z phoe: (mapcar (lambda (x) (-> x (+ 1) (* 2))) '(1 3))
2021-01-26T14:15:15Z phoe: much cleaner, IMO
2021-01-26T14:16:51Z nij: i'll do that :)
2021-01-26T14:16:58Z aeth: I don't know about the particulars of that library or the problem, but with numbers in general, if you can phrase the problem as MAP-INTO on an simple-array (whose elements' type is known) then that's usually an easy performance gain, which you might have to consider if it's large.
2021-01-26T14:17:08Z aeth: "easy" performance gain as in, the code's almost the same as the list code.
2021-01-26T14:17:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T14:20:24Z nij: thx :)
2021-01-26T14:22:19Z aeth: Iirc (map-into a the-same-lambda a) assuming you don't need the original around anymore. Not as elegant as pure functions and in theory a compiler could do this (in practice, no CL one will), of course.
2021-01-26T14:22:36Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T14:23:02Z aeth: Don't do it on '(1 3) though because that's literal. You'd need to use (list 1 3) if you're still using a list.
2021-01-26T14:24:21Z phoe: or (map 'vector ...) to cons a new sequence
2021-01-26T14:24:26Z VincentVega: jdz: I did stumble into that library once, maybe I need to learn some prolog first to understand what kind of problems it would be well suited for, because it looks pretty esoteric to me at this point (in a good way). Do you use it often?
2021-01-26T14:25:29Z DGASAU joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:25:35Z aeth: phoe: yes, but you'd probably want something more like (map '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 32) (*)) ...) or whatever you think can contain your problem. (Which is why float types are great, because they definitely will stay that float type unless you mix them with other types of floats, or explicitly coerce them, or accidentally make a complex)
2021-01-26T14:25:46Z aeth: (I know you know, but nij does not)
2021-01-26T14:25:47Z phoe: sure
2021-01-26T14:26:52Z aeth: Anyway, these are very, very small changes that can make huge performance gains, but generally only with numbers (and maybe characters)
2021-01-26T14:26:58Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T14:30:32Z daphnis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:31:07Z nij: I'd keep that in mind :)
2021-01-26T14:32:25Z aeth: also keep in mind when not to do it, e.g. doing math at the REPL-as-a-calculator
2021-01-26T14:32:34Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T14:32:41Z amerlyq joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:34:05Z dim: ralt: I like lparallel and I'm not sure if I would need more than that for my async needs
2021-01-26T14:35:11Z ralt: dim: an example I like is the actor model that Erlang uses: you want to have a queue and a thread per object, and if you have millions of objects, you need millions of threads. It is not feasible with OS threads, but perfectly fine with green threads.
2021-01-26T14:35:19Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:36:00Z dim: yeah I am fond of Erlang and that's why I like lparallel so much ;-)
2021-01-26T14:38:52Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T14:38:56Z nij: Finally, my first little script :) thank you folks on #lisp <3
2021-01-26T14:39:04Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:39:12Z nij: A question that's just just about taste: https://bpa.st/HHK5G
2021-01-26T14:39:48Z jdz: VincentVega: I've played around with it a bit, and used it to solve a problem once.  But I remember working with permutations (i.e., non-determinism) was really convenient, straight forward and with no performance penalties in Screamer.
2021-01-26T14:40:25Z dim: nij: in pgloader I have picked $(toplevel)/build/bin for the binary artefact
2021-01-26T14:41:06Z nij: what is toplevel?
2021-01-26T14:41:14Z nij: (for example?)
2021-01-26T14:41:56Z dim: the directory created when I do `git clone`
2021-01-26T14:42:13Z nij: Ah. But then with each script, you add a PATH?
2021-01-26T14:42:57Z dim: usually you have a `make install` target or something similar, and install all your scripts in either /usr/local/bin or maybe ~/bin or somewhere else, and yes that place then needs to be listed in PATH
2021-01-26T14:43:14Z VincentVega: jdz: Hmm, interesting. Thanks for making this connection between the two.
2021-01-26T14:43:46Z dyelar joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:44:42Z amerlyq: can someone explain or give me link/chapter where described how Lisp "live coding" works under the hood? I used swank in emacs and everything worked intuitively, but when I tried to reproduce same _workflow_ with ipython/jupyter -- it was barely "live coding" requiring to reload everything recursively (due to multilevel assignments through modules, instances, methods, etc). And I can't grasp the
2021-01-26T14:44:44Z amerlyq: magic difference :(
2021-01-26T14:45:54Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T14:46:09Z beach: What is it that you are having difficulties with?  I mean, one thread will be executing the program, and another thread runs the REPL.
2021-01-26T14:46:12Z ralt: dim: in that model, green threads just make so much more sense, no?
2021-01-26T14:46:30Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T14:49:28Z dim: I don't know, I'm not used to thinking at that abstraction level, and lparallel has a notion of a kernel with a number of workers and only some of them might be allowed active at anytime, so it might implement what you're talking about already
2021-01-26T14:50:17Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T14:51:48Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-26T14:52:15Z jackdaniel: amerlyq: python has interactivity bolted to the language as an afterthought
2021-01-26T14:52:22Z jackdaniel: while lisp is built ground up with repl in mind
2021-01-26T14:52:45Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-26T14:52:55Z jackdaniel: probably that's the reason why many things doesn't work as you would expect in python when you try incorporate live coding
2021-01-26T14:53:07Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:53:28Z arora quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T14:54:19Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:57:02Z OlCe quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-26T14:57:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T14:58:21Z ralt: dim: it looks like it actually does, yes
2021-01-26T14:58:29Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T14:58:34Z ralt: looks like it's implementing an event loop
2021-01-26T14:58:36Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:58:49Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:58:51Z beach: amerlyq: Are you still there?
2021-01-26T14:58:53Z amerlyq: beach, jackdaniel: basically I tried "hy" which is lisp syntax for python, but... it didn't worked like lisp :) CL design is to have global symbol table and to resolve symbols before calling, moreover to store values of these symbols on stack as per-frame env
2021-01-26T14:59:10Z phoe: hy is more or less python with parens
2021-01-26T14:59:14Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-26T14:59:20Z phoe: it doesn't really change the underlying language semantics
2021-01-26T15:00:02Z beach: amerlyq: That doesn't sound like a correct analysis of Common Lisp semantics.
2021-01-26T15:00:04Z jackdaniel: it is a little more complex than having a global table, but sure, that may be a nice metaphore
2021-01-26T15:01:09Z Josh_2: Afternoon all. Is there a library I can use to modify images?
2021-01-26T15:01:13Z amerlyq: beach: but it's enough to conclude that python has too much isolation between modules/instances etc. and you can't easily replace e.g. method in class without monkey-patching or reloading whole module and recreating all instances
2021-01-26T15:01:47Z beach: amerlyq: I shall have to take your word for that.
2021-01-26T15:02:45Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T15:03:11Z amerlyq: so, the question is -- how CLOS in CL had overcome this assignment limitation? Are class methods still contained in "global table" or only on stack of instance data?
2021-01-26T15:03:36Z beach: Methods are associated with generic functions.
2021-01-26T15:03:38Z jackdaniel: amerlyq: first and foremost, methods are not associated with the class
2021-01-26T15:04:13Z jackdaniel: amerlyq: this is a must-read for you (IMO): https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3243735416407529@naggum.no.html
2021-01-26T15:04:17Z beach: amerlyq: Functions are often associated with names in the global environment.
2021-01-26T15:05:15Z matryoshka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T15:06:39Z beach: amerlyq: When you add a method to a generic function, its discriminating function is recomputed so that the next time the generic function is called, the new method is taken into account.
2021-01-26T15:07:22Z bjorkint0sh quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T15:10:36Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:11:10Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-26T15:13:13Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:13:20Z edgar-rft: Let's all take place and have dinner at the one global table.
2021-01-26T15:14:23Z beach: Bah, we would have the "dining Lispers problem".
2021-01-26T15:14:51Z mrchampion joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:15:10Z jackdaniel: no biggie, I'll use my hands and unlock others
2021-01-26T15:15:22Z amerlyq: jackdaniel: nice read, thanks. As I understood from it -- specific methods are added to local table of generic, not to global one. So to reload method, you must reload whole generic.
2021-01-26T15:15:37Z amerlyq: > redefine a generic function with `defgeneric´, a fact that you should note right now before it comes back to bite you if you think you can load a file of updated `defmethod´ forms and expect it to run
2021-01-26T15:15:46Z jackdaniel: amerlyq: when you define a new method, the generic function is updated, as beach said above
2021-01-26T15:15:54Z edgar-rft: beach: I'm not responsible for your eating manners :-)
2021-01-26T15:16:10Z Xach fondly remembers the dining lispers problem at Mary Chung in Cambridge - having a fun conversation with kmp and others about the clhs
2021-01-26T15:16:40Z beach: amerlyq: You can forget about "loading" and "reloading"  it is just a matter of evaluating forms.
2021-01-26T15:17:04Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:17:22Z beach: amerlyq: When you add a method, you don't redefine or "reload" the generic function.
2021-01-26T15:17:28Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T15:17:43Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T15:18:03Z beach: amerlyq: I am not sure where you picked up this evaluation model.
2021-01-26T15:21:35Z beach: amerlyq: But you could definitely load a file containing DEFMETHOD forms.  The next time the generic function is called, those methods will be taken into account.
2021-01-26T15:22:20Z amerlyq: sorry on that, it's a hard to escape matter of habit -- when talking with other langs devs, they are more familiar with concepts of "hot reloading" and "live coding". Basically I used "reload" to focus only on this aspect of "form evaluation".
2021-01-26T15:22:42Z amerlyq: beach: but "will be taken into account" contradicts my quote above from jackdaniel link
2021-01-26T15:22:43Z jackdaniel: there is a fancy exception: methods defined as (:method …) option to defgeneric are removed before the function is redefined (and if still present -added once again)
2021-01-26T15:24:18Z dim: I think image based development as in CL is also sometimes referred to as “incremental compilation” (rather than reload)
2021-01-26T15:24:21Z jackdaniel: amerlyq: that quote you've mentioned talks about things you can use with a default generic function
2021-01-26T15:24:26Z orivej_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:24:34Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:24:39Z jackdaniel: (i.e when you forget to write a defgeneric form), in other words it speaks about something else
2021-01-26T15:24:50Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T15:25:05Z beach: amerlyq: What jackdaniel said.
2021-01-26T15:25:11Z jackdaniel: namely - always define a function with defgeneric, do not depend on defmethod defining a function for you
2021-01-26T15:25:14Z Vultyre quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T15:25:27Z amerlyq: oh, thanks for elaboration
2021-01-26T15:26:47Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-01-26T15:28:13Z Madvax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T15:29:48Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:30:06Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T15:31:54Z amerlyq: Hm, in this case "jet-live" approach for incremental compiling in C++ is more similar to Lisp, than any python approaches. Jet-live has global table of symbols, which prolog it rewrites by tramplines to newly added code, and actually broken OO becomes a generic-like bunch of differently named functions. The only problem is related to not preserving multiple environments on stacks and problem that
2021-01-26T15:31:56Z amerlyq: types data layout may not match
2021-01-26T15:33:13Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:33:25Z amerlyq: by the way... are there any other non-lisp languages designed for interactivity from the start? I seem can not find anything outside of research papers
2021-01-26T15:33:30Z phoe: Smalltalk!
2021-01-26T15:34:02Z amerlyq: phoe: is it still the thing in our millennia?
2021-01-26T15:34:04Z alandipert: java
2021-01-26T15:34:11Z jackdaniel: smalltalk and forth come to mind
2021-01-26T15:34:16Z phoe: alandipert: I wouldn't call Java interactive in the slightest
2021-01-26T15:34:30Z amerlyq: I fear java suffer the same problem as python
2021-01-26T15:34:34Z phoe: amerlyq: yes, see Pharo for an implementation that is alive and kicking
2021-01-26T15:35:11Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:35:12Z Gnuxie[m]: If it were dead you'd still be a fool to dismiss it
2021-01-26T15:37:12Z aeth: to be fair, Common Lisp already took inspiration from the relevant parts of Smalltalk :-p
2021-01-26T15:38:11Z aeth: I suspect that Common Lisp is a bit more successful than Smalltalk because Smalltalk is more deeply integrated with the editor, so it needs a good IDE, not just a good implementation.
2021-01-26T15:38:13Z alandipert: java/jvm were designed from the start to load code at runtime, later this functionality allowed jvm to host various dynamic langs, so support seems slight at worst imo
2021-01-26T15:38:53Z amerlyq: Gnuxie[m]: from scientist standpoint -- yes, from engineer standpoint -- no. Basically you need tons of libs to strive now, because after 30 you don't have time to write them yourself anymore :) And without libs even kicking lang is as good as dead for me, as it will never cross the borderline of kitchen experiments.
2021-01-26T15:41:11Z phoe: alandipert: hm, yes, if we take Java classloaders and such into account - but that'a already #lispcafe material
2021-01-26T15:43:18Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:43:19Z jackdaniel: amerlyq: I think that you are oversimplifying; from the engineer standpoint abstraction-bloat and updating all libraries on weekly basis (I'm thinking about what I saw when npm and pip were part of the build process) is a disaster
2021-01-26T15:43:31Z jackdaniel: engineers strive for stability, not a mess
2021-01-26T15:43:58Z jackdaniel: maybe code ninjas like this kind of updates though!
2021-01-26T15:45:28Z seeg1234 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:46:45Z jackdaniel: seeg1234: (defun append-suffix (path suffix) (make-pathname :name (concatenate 'string (pathname-name path) suffix) :defaults path))
2021-01-26T15:47:00Z jackdaniel: see, we know your questions before you ask them ,_)
2021-01-26T15:47:09Z seeg1234: :D thanks
2021-01-26T15:47:15Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-01-26T15:47:43Z amerlyq: phoe: Pharo looks promising enough to at least try over the weekends, thanks!
2021-01-26T15:50:41Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:51:41Z amerlyq: jackdaniel: I'm not so sure. If you need some components, especially integration-like ones, you simply pick between maintaining stream of updates from others, maintaining frozen version, or maintaining constant development of your own. You simply convert the same your personal time into one of chosen complexities. And I don't see how to NOT convert your time at all.
2021-01-26T15:52:03Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-26T15:52:06Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-26T15:52:46Z jackdaniel: all that I'm saying is that what you describe is a work of a plumber, not an engineer
2021-01-26T15:52:54Z jackdaniel: nothing wrong with that
2021-01-26T15:53:27Z amerlyq: aeth: considering I felt like "Pharo demo show so much mouse clicks to get things done... lets try to write in vim", you may be right on that :)
2021-01-26T15:54:32Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T15:54:33Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:54:39Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-26T15:54:47Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-26T15:55:07Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:55:32Z dim: my understanding is that the comparing is not in the right dimension here, when using vim/emacs/editor you edit a file with characters that are going to be transformed into code later by some tooling or another, in Pharo you actually edit the code itself, live
2021-01-26T15:55:57Z amerlyq: jackdaniel: and what engineer isn't plumber? You still combine your abstractions to get model in the same way like you combine libs to get work done. Nothing changes beside type of dirt on your hands.
2021-01-26T15:55:58Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:55:58Z dim: and I believe Common Lisp with SLIME or equivalent sits in the middle of the two models
2021-01-26T15:57:30Z amerlyq: dim: you edit "code representation as text" in Pharo, not code itself :) So you still have explicit compilation transactions at checkpoints, despite being hidden. Nothing different from slime.
2021-01-26T15:57:40Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:59:06Z DGASAU joined #lisp
2021-01-26T15:59:11Z jackdaniel: I suppose that wasn't a question but rather a revelation, so I'll get back to my things
2021-01-26T15:59:22Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T16:00:13Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-26T16:00:51Z amerlyq: So, at the end of the day we still have only CL, Pharo, and maybe Forth for live coding. Seems like I cease my attempts to make CL from the python (but a pity).
2021-01-26T16:01:01Z amerlyq: jackdaniel, beach: thanks
2021-01-26T16:02:18Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-26T16:04:38Z dbotton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T16:04:43Z dbotton_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T16:05:44Z dbotton_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-26T16:05:50Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T16:06:17Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-26T16:06:48Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-26T16:09:14Z dim: I would add Emacs Lisp and Clojure/Kawa and Racket and some other Scheme implementations to that list I believe, and Prolog and Erlang too, and most certainly quite a number of other things that I don't know exist yet ;-)
2021-01-26T16:09:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T16:11:28Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T16:12:53Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-26T16:15:41Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-26T16:18:45Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-26T16:19:38Z vutral_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T16:20:38Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T16:24:56Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T16:25:04Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T16:28:09Z sjl: Is there a way to print a rational as a decimal with an arbitrary amount of precision in CL?  Format's ~F converts the number to a float first, so if the rational requires more decimal places than double-float can handle it won't work.
2021-01-26T16:28:35Z sjl: (I ended up using https://wukix.com/lisp-decimals to do it for this one off-the-cuff calculation but was wondering if there's a built-in way)
2021-01-26T16:28:49Z ebrasca: How to use borodust claw?
2021-01-26T16:29:15Z ralt: Pharo is Smalltalk descendant, right?
2021-01-26T16:36:26Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-26T16:36:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T16:37:03Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T16:37:05Z beach: sjl: Can't you just multiply it by (expt 10 <number-of-decimals>), round it, and then insert a period before the decimal part?
2021-01-26T16:38:04Z sjl: I could probably cook up a function to do it... I was hoping there was something easily built-in that I was missing though
2021-01-26T16:38:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T16:38:19Z ebrasca: ralt: wikipedia says Pharo is one Smalltalk Implementation
2021-01-26T16:38:19Z sjl: Some format directive I don't know about or something.
2021-01-26T16:38:26Z phoe: I don't think so; CL has no real support for fixed-point numbers, which is what you want to do here
2021-01-26T16:38:31Z phoe: ...other than rationals, of course
2021-01-26T16:38:34Z beach: We need to revise the standard to include it.
2021-01-26T16:38:40Z phoe: I don't think there's a format directive for that
2021-01-26T16:38:56Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T16:39:14Z beach: [sorry, bad joke.  I have had to deal with another suggestion for a new standard lately]
2021-01-26T16:39:16Z sjl: (ql:quickload :wu-decimal) isn't that bad
2021-01-26T16:39:26Z sjl: I can live with it for the rare times I need it
2021-01-26T16:39:32Z waleee-cl: amerlyq, dim there's also https://factorcode.org/
2021-01-26T16:40:09Z waleee-cl: (image based like both cl and smalltalk)
2021-01-26T16:41:01Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T16:41:27Z alandipert: fiddlerwoaroof this "generalizer" paper/code you sent is really interesting, thanks for that. opens my eyes to the continuum of things before predicate dispatch and dependent types
2021-01-26T16:41:28Z beach: waleee-cl: What is the meaning of "image based"?
2021-01-26T16:41:46Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T16:41:58Z waleee-cl: aka the core eg. sbcl can dump and use
2021-01-26T16:42:24Z beach: I see.
2021-01-26T16:42:43Z waleee-cl: usually called image based outside of common lisp
2021-01-26T16:42:54Z waleee-cl: s/image//
2021-01-26T16:43:50Z beach: I just wasn't sure.  I guess I confuse it with the kind of system where you do all the work inside the running system, even edit code and such.
2021-01-26T16:44:06Z beach: ... like I hear Interlisp was.
2021-01-26T16:46:55Z waleee-cl:  By that definition factor is leaning more to the interlisp / smalltalk & pharo-side
2021-01-26T16:47:05Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T16:48:06Z beach: And I don't think of Common Lisp as such a system at all.
2021-01-26T16:48:10Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-26T16:48:20Z beach: ... which is why I asked.
2021-01-26T16:49:04Z beach: Erm, I mean, I don't think of current Common Lisp systems as such systems.
2021-01-26T16:49:15Z beach: I guess the language would allow it.
2021-01-26T16:53:32Z alandipert: in a couple days i will be giving an online presentation aimed at interesting Clojure programmers in CL, but i welcome any lispers here who are interested in the clojure perspective and/or helping me make my pitch :-) https://clojureverse.org/t/scicloj-public-meeting-common-lisp-for-the-curious-clojurian/7060
2021-01-26T16:54:28Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T16:55:05Z aeth: All you really need is variations of float-producing functions like SQRT with user-specified precision that result in rationals (and no, ISQRT doesn't count, even if it does technically result in an integer, which is a rational)
2021-01-26T16:59:22Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T17:02:32Z sxmx quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T17:03:06Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T17:03:36Z amerlyq: alandipert: so, is Clojure live coding is a thing in the same transparent way as CL/slime? If you don't mind amateurish question.
2021-01-26T17:03:50Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T17:05:29Z alandipert: amerlyq clojure prefers sticking with JVM limitations when they conflict with CL debug/repl affordances, so from the CL perspective it feels rather impoverished
2021-01-26T17:07:43Z sxmx joined #lisp
2021-01-26T17:11:58Z secretmyth joined #lisp
2021-01-26T17:12:59Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-26T17:17:56Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T17:20:16Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-26T17:23:43Z sxmx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T17:24:51Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-26T17:33:26Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T17:33:57Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-26T17:35:01Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq)
2021-01-26T17:35:34Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T17:38:18Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T17:38:49Z charles`: Is it considered bad for syntax extensions to be loaded when a the system is loaded or is it always better to have (enable-syntax-extension)
2021-01-26T17:39:12Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T17:39:49Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T17:45:27Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-26T17:45:33Z Xach: charles`: named-readtables is a nice way to manage syntax extensions.
2021-01-26T17:46:14Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T17:46:31Z charles`: but it isn't a reader extension
2021-01-26T17:46:44Z Xach: charles`: oh. what is a syntax extension?
2021-01-26T17:46:59Z charles`: a superset of reader extensions
2021-01-26T17:47:14Z Xach: can you be more specific?
2021-01-26T17:49:05Z charles`: it is a utility that allows types to be functions
2021-01-26T17:49:26Z charles`: so you could define a function for integer type then do (12 .....)
2021-01-26T17:50:26Z Xach: Neat. I don't have any opinion on when that should be enabled, I don't think I've seen anyone do something like that before.
2021-01-26T17:50:45Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T17:50:51Z Xach: How does it work?
2021-01-26T17:51:14Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T17:51:17Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-26T17:51:42Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-26T17:54:00Z Josh_2: Xach: did you create a png manipulation library?
2021-01-26T17:54:36Z charles`: Xach: Clojure has a similar thing where lists and hash-tables can be called as functions to access their contents. I am using plists and a custom eval function
2021-01-26T17:55:09Z Josh_2: a custom eval function?
2021-01-26T17:55:11Z Xach: Josh_2: not exactly. i wrote a png-writing library, and a vector drawing library that can write pngs, but it does not load pngs. (other libraries can do that though.)
2021-01-26T17:55:25Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T17:55:57Z charles`: Josh_2: I wrote an eval function that wraps cl:eval, then set cl:eval to my custom eval
2021-01-26T17:56:18Z Xach: charles`: does it work with compilation too?
2021-01-26T17:56:36Z Xach: Josh_2: did you have a particular application in mind?
2021-01-26T17:56:52Z Josh_2: Xach: yes I need to be able to draw dots based on X/Y coordinates on an image
2021-01-26T17:57:11Z charles`: you mean compile-file, I havent tried yet... It happens totally at run time tough
2021-01-26T17:57:50Z Xach: charles`: not limited to compile-file, thinking also of straight COMPILE.
2021-01-26T17:58:25Z Josh_2: the image would be a PNG and It's not a big deal if I redrew the image each time
2021-01-26T17:58:51Z Xach: Josh_2: you could do that by linking together pngload and vecto, but it isn't a directly supported way to work. (vecto's underlying canvas is compatible with the data pngload works with, i think)
2021-01-26T17:59:46Z phoe: > then set cl:eval to my custom eval
2021-01-26T17:59:47Z Josh_2: Well I could just draw an SVG and modify it based on where I want my dots and then export that as a PNG each time
2021-01-26T17:59:55Z Josh_2: using your SVG library
2021-01-26T18:00:00Z phoe: charles`: if you SETF FDEFINITION of CL:EVAL, that's UB - is that what you're doing?
2021-01-26T18:00:16Z Xach: i don't have an svg library...
2021-01-26T18:00:32Z Xach: Josh_2: maybe i'm overthinking. are you trying to draw dots on an existing image, or create a fresh new image with some dots in certain places?
2021-01-26T18:00:36Z Josh_2: isn't that 'vector drawing library'?
2021-01-26T18:00:42Z Josh_2: I can do either
2021-01-26T18:01:20Z Xach: SVG is an XML standard for defining some drawing and other graphical operations. It's useful for making 2d images. My library doesn't use or emit SVG.
2021-01-26T18:03:19Z Xach: well, if you want to make a PNG with some dots in it, vecto can do that pretty easily. (vectometry helps too.) for example, (with-box-canvas (box 0 0 200 200) (centered-circle-path (point 100 100) 25) (fill-path) (save-png "circle.png"))
2021-01-26T18:03:34Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-26T18:03:48Z Xach: hey presto, a black circle with radius 25 in the center of a 200x200 png
2021-01-26T18:04:04Z Josh_2: oh nice that might work
2021-01-26T18:04:18Z charles`: phoe: I am doing (setf (symbol-function
2021-01-26T18:05:09Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-26T18:05:29Z Josh_2: I basically have to emulate something like this https://imgur.com/y4pkb6s.png
2021-01-26T18:05:49Z phoe: charles`: on the symbol cl:eval?
2021-01-26T18:05:59Z phoe: that's undefined behavior
2021-01-26T18:06:14Z Xach: phoe: many undefined things can still be fun!
2021-01-26T18:06:24Z phoe: Xach: no doubt they can be fun
2021-01-26T18:06:41Z Xach: Josh_2: you could do something like that with vectometry without too much hassle.
2021-01-26T18:06:57Z charles`: yes (setf (symbol-function cl:eval) my-eval)
2021-01-26T18:07:05Z Xach: i use it to draw some fairly complicated stuff, like https://www.xach.com/moviecharts/2018.png
2021-01-26T18:07:14Z charles`: and using cl-package-locks
2021-01-26T18:08:10Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T18:08:35Z Josh_2: Okay tyvm Xach
2021-01-26T18:08:56Z pve: charles`: is this heading towards (12 :to 15 :do (lambda (n) (print "Whee!")))? :)
2021-01-26T18:09:19Z charles`: that is certainly a possibility!
2021-01-26T18:09:37Z charles`: just define your integer function to do that
2021-01-26T18:11:51Z alandipert: charles` i've always wondered about hacks to make arbitrary classes funcallable via mop, could be another means toward that end
2021-01-26T18:12:29Z Xach: alandipert: funcallable instances are pretty well supported, i believe!
2021-01-26T18:12:39Z Xach: that is not "arbitrary", granted
2021-01-26T18:12:50Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T18:13:03Z charles`: It is not really mop based (that is a bit over my head), they are not technically fun-callable (in my utility)
2021-01-26T18:14:12Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T18:15:52Z OlCe: Just as an example of interesting uses for this functionality, NewLISP has implicit indexing, one variant of which is to put one (or more) integers at start of a list form to do slicing.
2021-01-26T18:16:14Z alandipert: fixnum-macros anyone
2021-01-26T18:19:34Z charles`: in my utility, the function is actually more like a macro, so it can do ast changing before it form is actually evaled
2021-01-26T18:20:08Z yottabyte quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-26T18:20:42Z alandipert: neat
2021-01-26T18:21:17Z charles`: but still happens at runtime
2021-01-26T18:23:42Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T18:24:37Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-26T18:24:57Z arora joined #lisp
2021-01-26T18:26:53Z _death: it's not neat, it's silly.. (12 ...) is like (op 12 ...).. now you can have (op 12 to 15 do ...) and you can have (op 12 some-array), but having both, each defined by a different user, creates an impractical mess.. so instead we give different names like loop or aref
2021-01-26T18:28:28Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T18:33:44Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-26T18:36:04Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T18:37:37Z charles`: _death: the conflicts would be horrible. as long as people are conservative in defining new and crazy ones, it can be nice.
2021-01-26T18:38:56Z alandipert: we have this problem with symbols already, and have devised various mitigations.. and all the mitigations seem as applicable to eq fixnums as they are to eq symbols. i can imagine a concept of package-qualified fixnum for example
2021-01-26T18:39:07Z alandipert: granted this is in language design fun world, not CL world. where i wouldn't use it either heh
2021-01-26T18:40:33Z charles`: classes are already package local, so if you define a class then define an type-function for that class, then I think it would be pretty safe
2021-01-26T18:41:19Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T18:41:39Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T18:42:27Z _death: I suppose every lisper goes through that phase ;)
2021-01-26T18:42:43Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T18:43:25Z emacsomancer joined #lisp
2021-01-26T18:43:49Z charles`: What would be ideal is the type-functions being enabled be package local
2021-01-26T18:45:45Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T18:48:38Z vutral_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-26T18:49:53Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-26T18:52:56Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T18:53:22Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-26T18:54:15Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-26T18:57:58Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:00:05Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T19:00:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T19:01:36Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:01:39Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T19:02:00Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:02:36Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T19:03:14Z dddddd_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:03:54Z yottabyte joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:06:31Z dddddd quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T19:14:11Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:14:12Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T19:14:53Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:15:01Z sxmx joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:16:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T19:17:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:18:22Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:18:38Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T19:20:02Z bilegeek_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:22:50Z bilegeek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T19:23:45Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T19:29:38Z pve: charles`: you might want to investigate using readtables instead of clobbering cl:eval, if you're going to pursue that further
2021-01-26T19:29:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T19:30:00Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:30:08Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T19:30:16Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:31:42Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:35:28Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T19:37:38Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:39:17Z kpoeck joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:39:17Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T19:39:27Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T19:39:40Z aeth__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:39:58Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:40:59Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-26T19:41:01Z aeth__ is now known as aeth
2021-01-26T19:42:01Z charles`: pve: I'll look into it, but I wouldn't call it clobbering; it is more like a thin wrapper that calls the original cl:eval.
2021-01-26T19:42:33Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T19:44:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T19:44:45Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:50:35Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:50:57Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:51:25Z andreyorst_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T19:52:03Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-26T19:52:24Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:54:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T19:55:53Z pve: charles`: I understand, but it's not something you would want to do if you intend to release it as a library.
2021-01-26T19:56:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T19:57:32Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T19:58:19Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-26T19:58:29Z Anonymous_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T20:01:05Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-26T20:04:48Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:05:03Z bilegeek_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T20:05:31Z bilegeek_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:09:52Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:14:26Z banjiewen__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T20:15:03Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T20:15:29Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T20:15:31Z banjiewen__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:15:46Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-26T20:16:16Z arora quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T20:16:30Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:18:22Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:20:41Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:21:21Z villanella quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-26T20:24:48Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T20:26:09Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T20:35:21Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T20:36:17Z kpoeck quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-26T20:36:29Z Nilby` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:36:53Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:42:11Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-26T20:42:38Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T20:46:22Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:46:28Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T20:47:05Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T20:48:45Z Anonymous_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:56:12Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:57:04Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T20:57:04Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T20:58:10Z galex-713__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:58:25Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:58:27Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:58:43Z galex-713_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T20:59:19Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T20:59:42Z galex-713__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T20:59:45Z galex-713___ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:00:04Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T21:02:12Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T21:02:21Z galex-713__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:02:27Z kpoeck joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:02:32Z galex-713___ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T21:02:53Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:03:51Z caret quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T21:04:16Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T21:04:46Z secretmyth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T21:05:23Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:05:34Z galex-713__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-26T21:07:26Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T21:07:57Z galex-713__ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:09:27Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T21:11:05Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:12:21Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T21:13:16Z galex-713__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T21:14:04Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T21:14:33Z albusp quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-26T21:15:37Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:16:44Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-26T21:27:16Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-26T21:27:40Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T21:29:25Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T21:30:58Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T21:31:21Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:31:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:36:31Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T21:43:17Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T21:43:47Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:51:47Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-26T21:52:07Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:55:07Z zacts quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-26T21:55:15Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:55:15Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-26T21:55:15Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-26T21:56:27Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-26T22:01:46Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T22:02:24Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T22:02:38Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T22:12:28Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T22:18:34Z samlamamma joined #lisp
2021-01-26T22:28:21Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-26T22:30:10Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T22:35:44Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-26T22:37:27Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-26T22:41:02Z mindCrime_ quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-26T22:41:31Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T22:42:03Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-26T22:43:20Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-26T22:45:19Z paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T22:48:10Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T22:49:53Z charles`: pve: I don't see how name-readtables will help me get around rebinding cl:eval
2021-01-26T22:54:54Z Nilby` quit (Quit: [deleted])
2021-01-26T22:55:33Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-26T22:57:16Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-26T22:57:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T22:58:20Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T22:59:13Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:01:55Z Josh_2: Hey. With asdf can I specify a pathname for each module?
2021-01-26T23:02:00Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:02:57Z Josh_2: Normally I would add a key like :pathname "src" and all my code would go in 'src' and then my files are found relative to src, however I want to have a module which contains static files, if I use :pathname isn't it going to look in src?
2021-01-26T23:03:09Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:03:16Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T23:03:31Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T23:04:03Z Josh_2: like a :module component looks in <pathname>/<modulename>
2021-01-26T23:04:33Z Josh_2: I still want all the other modules to be in "src" just not one module
2021-01-26T23:06:08Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-26T23:06:44Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:09:29Z phoe: I think this is recursive
2021-01-26T23:10:06Z phoe: like, when you have (:module "foo" ... (:module "bar" ... (:file "baz"))) then you'll end up with a relative path name #p"foo/bar/baz" that ASDF will use to look for the resultant file
2021-01-26T23:11:06Z Josh_2: I might have done it
2021-01-26T23:11:41Z Josh_2: Well asdf didn't complain but I'm not sure if it worked or not because It's a :static-file
2021-01-26T23:12:04Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2256#2256
2021-01-26T23:13:09Z theruran quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-26T23:16:16Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-26T23:23:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T23:23:32Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:28:46Z mbomba joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:30:44Z mfiano: Josh_2: the toplevel asdf form is itself the root module. You can use any properties in children modules.
2021-01-26T23:31:24Z kpoeck left #lisp
2021-01-26T23:32:44Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-26T23:34:45Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:36:22Z Josh_2: But is the new :pathname relative to the pathname of the root module?
2021-01-26T23:40:49Z mbomba quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-26T23:42:46Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-26T23:42:50Z phoe: yes
2021-01-26T23:44:45Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-26T23:47:16Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-26T23:48:45Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:49:06Z cods joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:49:07Z Vultyre quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-26T23:49:15Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:49:15Z Vultyre_ joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:53:50Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:54:54Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2021-01-26T23:56:41Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp
2021-01-26T23:57:28Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-27T00:03:02Z charles`: I made my type-functions be able to have package local definitions as well as package local enabling, but I'm still rebinding cl:eval
2021-01-27T00:03:04Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T00:03:11Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T00:07:01Z theruran joined #lisp
2021-01-27T00:07:16Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T00:09:30Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-27T00:12:00Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T00:13:36Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T00:14:13Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T00:16:52Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T00:17:12Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T00:22:47Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T00:23:43Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T00:25:23Z cods joined #lisp
2021-01-27T00:46:18Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T00:47:13Z Josh_2: If I use lists to store some config info in a file is read-from-string a safe means or retrieving it? I am pretty sure there are some 'more secure' versions around
2021-01-27T00:47:39Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-27T00:47:43Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-27T00:50:48Z mfiano: Bind *read-eval*. Of course this depends on your definition of safety
2021-01-27T00:52:45Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T00:54:38Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T00:56:02Z bilegeek_ is now known as bilegeek
2021-01-27T00:57:54Z Josh_2: well to be fair It's upto the user to keep their config safe
2021-01-27T00:57:58Z mfiano: It's not going to help with READER-ERRORs, but it will mostly prevent read-time evaluation. Just don't read "1f999" or something.
2021-01-27T00:59:24Z Josh_2: well if their are reader errors then they dun goofed it up
2021-01-27T01:01:32Z mfiano: But you don't have to implement this yourself.
2021-01-27T01:01:52Z mfiano: You can use uiop:safe-read-file-line or uiop:safe-read-file-form etc
2021-01-27T01:02:45Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-27T01:03:45Z Josh_2: Thats what I was looking for
2021-01-27T01:07:04Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-27T01:09:23Z Kingsy: anyone in here use lisp with slimv on neovim ?
2021-01-27T01:16:53Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T01:17:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T01:24:36Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-27T01:25:28Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T01:25:53Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-27T01:27:25Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-27T01:33:03Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T01:33:17Z mindCrime_ quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-27T01:33:42Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T01:35:28Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T01:42:28Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-27T01:45:28Z amerigo joined #lisp
2021-01-27T01:51:05Z charles`: Xach: my utility doesn't work on for compile, the compiler gives style-warnings for undefined functions (rightfully so).
2021-01-27T01:54:39Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T01:55:21Z Xach: charles`: ah well
2021-01-27T01:55:40Z Xach: it seems like a real challenge to implement, so i look forward to any interesting implementation ideas you may have
2021-01-27T01:58:26Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T02:00:31Z HiRE_ quit (Quit: Later)
2021-01-27T02:00:54Z HiRE joined #lisp
2021-01-27T02:02:12Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-27T02:03:06Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-27T02:04:06Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-27T02:07:27Z nullman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T02:09:25Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-27T02:09:31Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-27T02:09:32Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-27T02:17:20Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-27T02:30:01Z lottaquestions quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T02:30:29Z lottaquestions joined #lisp
2021-01-27T02:34:14Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-27T02:35:39Z dbotton quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T02:41:33Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T02:47:34Z logand`` joined #lisp
2021-01-27T02:51:17Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T03:03:39Z flatheap quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T03:04:36Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T03:06:34Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-27T03:06:50Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-27T03:08:58Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-27T03:09:03Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T03:11:26Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T03:16:40Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-27T03:17:00Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T03:19:52Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-27T03:29:02Z arora joined #lisp
2021-01-27T03:31:45Z Vultyre_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T03:31:57Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-27T03:40:57Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T03:54:00Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T03:58:50Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T03:58:54Z [d] quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-27T03:59:01Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T03:59:07Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-27T03:59:14Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:01:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-27T04:02:18Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:04:47Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:05:12Z Vultyre joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:05:34Z cpape` joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:05:54Z arora quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-27T04:06:02Z cpape quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T04:07:51Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:08:31Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:31Z anotherone9999[m quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:31Z skye0[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:32Z even4void[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:32Z ThaEwat quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:32Z paulj quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:32Z chrpape` quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:32Z voidlily quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:32Z heredoc quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:32Z ggoes quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:32Z ptr_0x0001 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:32Z abbe_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:32Z jlpeters quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:32Z thonkpod quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:32Z russell-- quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:45Z ecm quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:46Z MrtnDk[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:46Z stargazesparkle quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:46Z jonathan| quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:47Z XachX quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:08:47Z jdz quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:09:25Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:12:37Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:14:58Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:14:58Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:14:58Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:14:58Z jdz joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:14:58Z jonathan| joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:14:58Z XachX joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:20:24Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:24Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:25Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:26Z jonas[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:27Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:27Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:27Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:34Z Lolicon[m] quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:36Z posthuman_egrego quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:36Z Vultyre quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T04:20:36Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:36Z jdormit[m] quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:36Z santiagopim[m] quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:45Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:49Z christopheroei[m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:49Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:49Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:55Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:55Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:56Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:56Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:56Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:56Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:57Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:20:57Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:21:18Z ThaEwat quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:21:18Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:21:18Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:22:15Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:22:26Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:23:27Z [d] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:24:00Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:34:17Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:34:17Z chrpape` joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:34:17Z voidlily joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:34:17Z heredoc joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:34:17Z ggoes joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:34:17Z ptr_0x0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:34:17Z abbe_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:34:17Z jlpeters joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:34:17Z russell-- joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:34:17Z thonkpod joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:35:56Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:36:00Z paulj quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:36:00Z chrpape` quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:36:00Z voidlily quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:36:00Z heredoc quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:36:00Z ggoes quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:36:00Z ptr_0x0001 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:36:00Z abbe_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:36:00Z jlpeters quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:36:00Z thonkpod quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:36:00Z russell-- quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:36:03Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:38:08Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:38:08Z chrpape` joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:38:08Z voidlily joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:38:08Z heredoc joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:38:08Z ggoes joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:38:08Z ptr_0x0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:38:08Z abbe_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:38:08Z jlpeters joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:38:08Z russell-- joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:38:08Z thonkpod joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:43:44Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:44:16Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-27T04:44:30Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:44:38Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:45:04Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:46:41Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:47:37Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-27T04:48:23Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:48:39Z skye0[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:48:41Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:50:50Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:51:40Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:51:40Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:51:47Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:53:54Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:54:23Z anotherone9999[m quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:54:23Z paulj quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:54:23Z chrpape` quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:54:23Z voidlily quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:54:23Z heredoc quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:54:23Z ggoes quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:54:24Z ptr_0x0001 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:54:24Z abbe_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:54:24Z jlpeters quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:54:24Z thonkpod quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:54:24Z russell-- quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T04:55:39Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:56:27Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:56:35Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:03Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T04:57:07Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:07Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:07Z chrpape` joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:07Z voidlily joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:07Z heredoc joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:07Z ggoes joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:07Z ptr_0x0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:07Z abbe_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:07Z jlpeters joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:07Z russell-- joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:07Z thonkpod joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:14Z anotherone9999[m quit (Changing host)
2021-01-27T04:57:14Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-27T04:57:53Z nckx joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:00:39Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:00:42Z anotherone9999[m quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:00:44Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:00:56Z jdormit[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:00:56Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:00:56Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:00:56Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:01:04Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:01:09Z skye0[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:01:23Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:01:24Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:01:24Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:01:30Z bilegeek_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:09:20Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:09:20Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T05:09:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:09:20Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:09:20Z bilegeek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:09:20Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:10:27Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:10:43Z choegusung joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:12:05Z choegusung quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T05:18:39Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:20:30Z bilegeek__ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:20:32Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:21:46Z paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T05:22:47Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-27T05:22:59Z bilegeek_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T05:23:46Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:31:13Z bilegeek__ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T05:34:47Z mathrick joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:35:46Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:35:50Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:36:42Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:40:12Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:40:23Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:40:26Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:41:17Z paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:41:20Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:41:49Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T05:42:07Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:42:12Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:43:36Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:43:47Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:44:10Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:45:31Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:47:42Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-27T05:50:34Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:53:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T05:53:28Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:54:26Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:58:57Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:59:42Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T05:59:49Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:00:06Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:00:10Z lalilulelo joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:01:47Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:01:59Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:02:41Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:04:22Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-27T06:04:43Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:05:00Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:06:53Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:06:58Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:07:35Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:08:04Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:09:04Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:09:09Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-27T06:09:35Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:10:41Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:12:05Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:13:27Z skye0[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:13:58Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:16:09Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:17:41Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:25:57Z _paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:26:11Z Nilby left #lisp
2021-01-27T06:27:27Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T06:28:44Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T06:30:53Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:33:42Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:38:09Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:39:13Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T06:39:25Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T06:39:29Z terpri_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:43:49Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-27T06:48:48Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:50:48Z samlamamma quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T06:55:06Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T06:55:28Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:57:17Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:58:29Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-27T06:59:46Z mathrick_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:00:43Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T07:01:45Z dwts quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T07:01:45Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T07:02:26Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T07:02:45Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T07:05:03Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T07:05:17Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:14:01Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:26:26Z vert2 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:26:26Z Tordek joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:29:58Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:30:17Z dwts joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:34:33Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T07:34:50Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:34:54Z logand`` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T07:35:08Z logand` joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:35:38Z luni quit (Quit: luni)
2021-01-27T07:37:28Z awkravchuk joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:37:58Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T07:38:48Z tgbugs joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:42:33Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:43:00Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:43:26Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T07:44:23Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-27T07:44:27Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T07:44:40Z logand``` joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:45:52Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T07:45:54Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:46:16Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:52:00Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:52:54Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T07:53:24Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T07:53:28Z logand``` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T08:01:34Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:10:21Z datajerk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T08:10:45Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T08:11:52Z lalilulelo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-27T08:15:23Z mrcom quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-27T08:15:34Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:16:26Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:21:35Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T08:22:38Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T08:22:57Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:24:57Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T08:25:55Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:25:55Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-27T08:25:55Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:32:17Z fourier joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:34:16Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:36:16Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:36:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T08:37:36Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:38:08Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T08:38:26Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:39:46Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:43:45Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:44:26Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T08:47:56Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-27T08:50:34Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:50:47Z jdz quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)
2021-01-27T08:52:24Z jdz joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:53:43Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-27T08:56:20Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T09:04:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T09:04:28Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-27T09:07:59Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T09:10:40Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-27T09:11:21Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-27T09:14:55Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T09:15:22Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-27T09:16:02Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-27T09:27:36Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-27T09:28:51Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T09:29:16Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-27T09:35:23Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-27T09:35:51Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-27T09:38:56Z flip214 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T09:39:28Z Trieste joined #lisp
2021-01-27T09:39:28Z ljavorsk quit (Quit: I'm out, bye)
2021-01-27T09:39:43Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-27T09:40:50Z flip214 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T09:42:39Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T09:50:15Z jibanes joined #lisp
2021-01-27T09:51:28Z ralt: _death: I've started playing with adding support for FD passing in dbus, do you think the way to do this is acceptable? It's not finished yet, but the rough idea should be pretty clear https://github.com/ralt/dbus/commit/bf1ff352042b317595ee03f61cb57af072e9d11e
2021-01-27T09:54:24Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-27T09:56:43Z ralt: what's essentially left is cleaning up and editing `(define-dbus-type :unix-fd)` to have an unpacker that uses this function
2021-01-27T09:59:06Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T09:59:20Z jibanes joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:04:22Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:05:22Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:14:41Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:16:19Z copec joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:16:23Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:18:54Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:19:14Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T10:20:00Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-27T10:20:01Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:20:36Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T10:21:33Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:23:15Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T10:23:15Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-27T10:24:51Z stoneglass joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:33:46Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T10:34:03Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:35:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T10:35:27Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:39:09Z stoneglass quit (Quit: stoneglass)
2021-01-27T10:40:59Z datajerk joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:44:37Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-27T10:51:30Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-27T10:54:01Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-27T10:56:49Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T10:57:50Z hhdave joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:00:06Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-27T11:00:46Z paulj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T11:16:33Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:16:52Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:18:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T11:19:13Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:19:28Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T11:19:31Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:22:00Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T11:22:05Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T11:22:07Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp
2021-01-27T11:22:30Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:26:34Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:29:42Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp
2021-01-27T11:30:07Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:33:05Z frgo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:35:06Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:35:07Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T11:35:29Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T11:35:46Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:36:33Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:36:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T11:37:06Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:38:10Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:38:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T11:38:37Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T11:38:38Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:40:06Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:42:54Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-27T11:44:25Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T11:58:03Z frgo_ is now known as frgo
2021-01-27T12:03:23Z matijja quit (Quit: bye)
2021-01-27T12:03:36Z matijja joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:04:16Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:08:44Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:20:10Z amerigo joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:20:50Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T12:27:23Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:29:09Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-27T12:31:11Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T12:31:40Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:31:58Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:32:29Z Major_Biscuit quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T12:33:22Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T12:33:40Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:36:28Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:40:00Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T12:42:13Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T12:48:40Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:53:06Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:53:50Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T12:53:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T12:55:52Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:56:07Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T12:57:46Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-27T12:59:08Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T12:59:25Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-27T13:04:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T13:06:09Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T13:09:03Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T13:10:03Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-27T13:19:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T13:19:27Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-27T13:24:39Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-27T13:30:32Z lalilulelo joined #lisp
2021-01-27T13:32:53Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T13:33:11Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-27T13:33:50Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T13:38:36Z _death: ralt: it looks acceptable, but perhaps there should be a new defgeneric for the connection protocol, receive-file-descriptors, and the method should be in transport-unix.lisp.. the C function's name should be qualified by a dbus library-specific name, like dbus_lisp_receive_fds.. this post https://blog.cloudflare.com/know-your-scm_rights/ seems to put the buffer into a union to ensure alignment
2021-01-27T13:39:44Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T13:40:30Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-27T13:40:46Z dddddd_ is now known as dddddd
2021-01-27T13:42:06Z nij is now known as Guest26569
2021-01-27T13:44:48Z ikrabbe joined #lisp
2021-01-27T13:45:37Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T13:46:55Z ikrabbe: Good morning: I'm searching for a little example for specifying types: (let's assume I want to define a type workspace, that is a list containing a name, a list of files and an address of a machine, which again is a list, not speicified yet.
2021-01-27T13:47:35Z ikrabbe: So how do I write (deftype workspace (list string (list pathnames*) (list)))? in a correct way?
2021-01-27T13:51:59Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T13:52:17Z _linker_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T13:52:46Z Bike: there's no way to specify a "proper list of [whatever]" type, unfortunately
2021-01-27T13:52:53Z jdz: Lists in Common List consist of CONS cells.  Fields of CONS cells can be specified, but the n you have to also specify exact number of cells.
2021-01-27T13:53:18Z jdz: In Common Lisp, of course.
2021-01-27T13:53:42Z ikrabbe: jdz: that is no problem, to specify the number of cells, so cons might be my friend, and yes :CL
2021-01-27T13:53:54Z jdz: ikrabbe: You might also consider using a class (or structure) for your top-level container (instead of a list).
2021-01-27T13:54:12Z _death: if you want a type-ish solution, you can use a class or a structure.. (defstruct workspace name files machine-address)
2021-01-27T13:55:08Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-27T13:55:25Z _death: you can always write a function to make an instance out of the list syntax you defined
2021-01-27T13:57:13Z ikrabbe: _death_: yes, that's where I currently am. Now I wonder if I can use the common-lisp type system to check the structure of a cell.
2021-01-27T13:58:17Z jdz: (typep '(42 . "42") '(cons number string))
2021-01-27T13:58:46Z ikrabbe: As I have strong doubts against type systems and OO (not to be discussed here), I want to find a minimal approach.
2021-01-27T13:58:51Z jdz: (typep '(42 "42") '(cons number (cons string null))
2021-01-27T13:58:56Z jdz: )
2021-01-27T13:59:23Z _death: ikrabbe: you can define a predicate function for that
2021-01-27T14:01:52Z ikrabbe: jdz: that looks readonable. Let me check ..., btw: I guess it should be possible to narrow the type: (deftype theanswer '(cons (and number (values 42)) (cons (and string (values "42") null))) ?
2021-01-27T14:02:59Z ikrabbe: (so (typep '(41 "42") 'theanswer) would be false obvously ;))
2021-01-27T14:03:50Z jdz: ikrabbe: I'm starting to think I'm missing what you're trying to achieve.
2021-01-27T14:03:56Z _death: for 42 you could (eql 42) but won't do what you want for strings
2021-01-27T14:04:34Z ikrabbe: I'm just trying to understand the type system and how to use it to narrow type queries.
2021-01-27T14:04:55Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:05:05Z jdz: And what do you mean by "type queries"?
2021-01-27T14:05:26Z ikrabbe: #'typep
2021-01-27T14:06:16Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:06:53Z ikrabbe:  (typep '(42 "42") '(cons (eql 42) (cons string null)))
2021-01-27T14:06:53Z ikrabbe: T
2021-01-27T14:06:53Z ikrabbe: *  (typep '(41 "42") '(cons (eql 42) (cons string null)))
2021-01-27T14:06:53Z ikrabbe: NIL
2021-01-27T14:06:53Z ikrabbe: * (typep '(42 "41") '(cons (eql 42) (cons string null)))
2021-01-27T14:06:53Z ikrabbe: T
2021-01-27T14:07:07Z ikrabbe:  (typep '(42 "42") '(cons (eql 42) (cons string null)))
2021-01-27T14:07:07Z ikrabbe: T
2021-01-27T14:07:07Z ikrabbe: *  (typep '(41 "42") '(cons (eql 42) (cons string null)))
2021-01-27T14:07:07Z ikrabbe: NIL
2021-01-27T14:07:07Z ikrabbe: * (typep '(42 "41") '(cons (eql 42) (cons string null)))
2021-01-27T14:07:07Z ikrabbe: T
2021-01-27T14:07:13Z ikrabbe: ah sorry
2021-01-27T14:09:32Z jdz: Yes, you can play around in the repl with TYPEP all you want (just try not to copy/paste your session here, use a paste site).  But what is the purpose?  If you just want to understand, then I'd suggest reading the Types section of the spec.
2021-01-27T14:10:01Z jdz: Types and Classes section , to be exact.
2021-01-27T14:10:03Z Bike: if you deal with these kinds of involved cons types a lot, you might consider (deftype list-of (&rest elems) (if (null elems) 'null `(cons ,(first elems) (list-of ,@(rest elems))))), so that (list-of (eql 42) string) = (cons (eql 42) (cons string null))
2021-01-27T14:10:39Z Guest26569 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T14:10:50Z ikrabbe: Yes, I double pasted it, but I wanted to express the idea of a type match (or not-match more important))
2021-01-27T14:10:59Z Guest26569 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:11:05Z ikrabbe: Bike: Thanks, that looks like something I searched for...
2021-01-27T14:12:11Z Bike: the reason jdz is asking (i figure) is that there are a couple different possible things the type system is good for. if you want to use it to provide hints to the compiler for optimization, these kinds of types probably aren't that useful. but if you're actually just testing your own data with typep like this that's probably fine.
2021-01-27T14:15:34Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:15:56Z beach: ikrabbe: Putting your stuff in a standard object wouldn't make your program "OO".  And it is almost never a good solution to use lists for this type of aggregation.
2021-01-27T14:16:40Z beach: ikrabbe: That said, there is no reason to fear Common Lisp-style "OO".
2021-01-27T14:19:10Z shka_: on the contrary, there are good reasons to embrace it
2021-01-27T14:20:29Z _linker_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T14:20:48Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:21:14Z nij: What kind of structures aren't #'READable? Or rather, what kind of structures cannot be made #'READable?
2021-01-27T14:21:53Z _linker_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:21:56Z nij: I reckon it might be convenient to dump the current state of my REPL in a reloadable bunch of sexprs. Wonder why that's not possible.
2021-01-27T14:22:02Z beach: There are object, like functions for instance, that can't be be externalized.
2021-01-27T14:23:17Z beach: nij: My library Clobber is essentially based on that idea.
2021-01-27T14:23:59Z beach: nij: Every "transaction" is saved in a READable format so that if you load the transaction log from a fresh Common Lisp system, it creates a "similar" object graph.
2021-01-27T14:24:42Z ikrabbe: I don't fear OO, but everytime I freed from OO concepts my programs
2021-01-27T14:24:42Z ikrabbe: got several times shorter without loosing
2021-01-27T14:24:42Z ikrabbe: expressiveness or performance. I really don't want to discuss that here, though
2021-01-27T14:24:42Z ikrabbe: when I think about an algorithm without fixing the types, I often see the abstraction
2021-01-27T14:24:42Z ikrabbe: that would hide otherwise from my mind.
2021-01-27T14:25:08Z beach: nij: And Clobber preserves object identity across transactions, so that EQ objects participating in separate transactions become EQ also after the log is loaded.
2021-01-27T14:25:31Z beach: ikrabbe: You must not have been using OO in Common Lisp then.
2021-01-27T14:25:33Z nij: beach: haven't learned about objects yet. But aren't functions just lambdas?
2021-01-27T14:25:43Z beach: No.
2021-01-27T14:25:47Z beach: They are compiled binary code.
2021-01-27T14:26:37Z villanella quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T14:26:44Z nij: Well, would starting to annotate the lambda sexp to the binary code changes this?
2021-01-27T14:26:45Z beach: And there is no such thing as "a lambda" in Common Lisp.  There is the symbol LAMBDA, there are LAMBDA lists, and LAMBDA expressions, not "a lambda".
2021-01-27T14:27:31Z beach: nij: Not every function has an equivalent lambda expression, for example if the function is a closure.
2021-01-27T14:27:33Z ldb joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:27:38Z ldb: good evening
2021-01-27T14:27:46Z beach: Hello ldb.
2021-01-27T14:27:52Z nij: beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clobber ?
2021-01-27T14:28:00Z beach: Yes.
2021-01-27T14:29:13Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:29:18Z amerigo quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-27T14:29:21Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T14:29:23Z beach: It is not meant for production.  I wrote it to make fun of "object prevalence".  It does have some shortcomings.  Like I don't think you can redefine how hash tables are printed.  But otherwise it seems to work.
2021-01-27T14:30:13Z beach: On the other hand, it's less than 300 lines of code.
2021-01-27T14:30:54Z nij: so what is object prevalence @@
2021-01-27T14:31:01Z nij: (tried googling it briefly)
2021-01-27T14:31:33Z beach: I think it was invented by the Java people.
2021-01-27T14:32:00Z spacebat2 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T14:32:00Z ldb: optimizing lisp compilers such as SBCL actually uses "type directed optimization"
2021-01-27T14:32:18Z spacebat2 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:32:32Z galex-713_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T14:34:26Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:34:58Z beach: As far as I can tell, object prevalence does not tolerate redefinitions of classes and such between the time an object was written and the time it is read back.  Clobber, on the other hand, is based only on the protocol properties of classes and objects, i.e., initargs for creation and slot accessors for, er, access.
2021-01-27T14:36:05Z nij: CLOS objects seem to be printly-readable based on https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3086561/make-clos-objects-printable-in-lisp
2021-01-27T14:36:49Z beach: nij: The term "CLOS object" is meaningless.  Every Common Lisp datum is an object, and every object has a class, and every class is part of CLOS.
2021-01-27T14:37:26Z ldb: guess it means "complex data objects that usually has no defualt print method"
2021-01-27T14:37:43Z beach: chls print-object
2021-01-27T14:37:46Z beach: er
2021-01-27T14:37:51Z beach: clhs print-object
2021-01-27T14:37:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pr_obj.htm
2021-01-27T14:38:12Z ldb: except the "<#" based :P
2021-01-27T14:39:00Z ldb: not mean to be a very rigid definition
2021-01-27T14:39:17Z aeth: nij: "standard object", not "CLOS object"; that distinguishes it from "structure objects" and built-ins
2021-01-27T14:39:57Z aeth: defclass defines standard classes, whose instances are standard objects: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_std_cl.htm#standard-class
2021-01-27T14:40:07Z aeth: (* by default)
2021-01-27T14:41:08Z beach: In Cleavir, we print ASTs (which are actually not trees, they can have cycles) using the notation [package:class-name :initarg1 value1 ... :initargn valuen] and we define a readtable in which [ does (apply #'make-instance (read ...) (read-delimited-list ...))
2021-01-27T14:41:26Z beach: It is a simple technique and it works quite well.
2021-01-27T14:41:45Z beach: So well in fact, that this external format is the SICL FASL format.
2021-01-27T14:42:26Z ldb: won't the FASL be very large in text format?
2021-01-27T14:42:38Z beach: Nobody cares.
2021-01-27T14:42:47Z beach: But if you do care, it compresses extremely well.
2021-01-27T14:44:09Z beach: And I am not convinced that binary code would be any smaller.
2021-01-27T14:44:16Z fixing_auth_hold joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:46:47Z fixing_auth_hold quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T14:47:39Z ldb: I think is possible to save some identifier names by using de Bruijn encoding
2021-01-27T14:47:41Z lalilulelo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T14:48:48Z hineios4 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:49:44Z catchme joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:49:57Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T14:49:57Z hineios4 is now known as hineios
2021-01-27T14:56:40Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T14:59:21Z drl joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:01:16Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T15:03:09Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:14:14Z shka_: ldb: just zip the thing
2021-01-27T15:14:56Z Xach feels the earth shudder as attila_lendvai migrates 1000 repos
2021-01-27T15:15:17Z attila_lendvai: :D
2021-01-27T15:15:37Z attila_lendvai: Xach, how did you notice? i'm preparing the PR also
2021-01-27T15:15:58Z Xach: attila_lendvai: twitter.com/NewLispRepos
2021-01-27T15:15:59Z X-Scale quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T15:16:52Z attila_lendvai: oh! i didn't know about that. thanks!
2021-01-27T15:17:12Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-27T15:18:50Z attila_lendvai: Xach, FYI, i'm using the tagged-git stuff with a 'stable' tag. i hope it'll work! i've seen many repos using it now.
2021-01-27T15:19:16Z Xach: attila_lendvai: uh oh
2021-01-27T15:19:17Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:19:22Z Xach: attila_lendvai: a moving tag??
2021-01-27T15:19:36Z Iolo joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:19:56Z attila_lendvai: Xach, well, they won't move much because we are not active in CL nowadays...
2021-01-27T15:20:00Z Xach: ok
2021-01-27T15:20:16Z Xach: someone else uses a moving tag and it is a hassle - it is better usually to use a branch
2021-01-27T15:20:46Z attila_lendvai: Xach, but i've seen list 10-20 projects in ql using it... i thought its fine
2021-01-27T15:21:21Z Xach: attila_lendvai: it is not great
2021-01-27T15:21:49Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:24:45Z h4ck3r9696: Does anyone know where I can find resources about sending and receiving binary data with usocket, in a TCP stream? I currently use read-sequence on a usocket-stream, but it doesn't work very well: I have to wait for the received message to be long enough for it do be read, and I can't read more than the specified size of the buffer.
2021-01-27T15:26:28Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-27T15:28:04Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:31:23Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T15:31:24Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T15:31:39Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:32:27Z Guest26569 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T15:32:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T15:32:44Z Guest26569 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:33:12Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:40:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:40:40Z _death: unfortunately CL has no read-byte-no-hang.. you can try using nonblocking sockets, or you can use, say, iolib
2021-01-27T15:42:21Z jmercouris: what's a good way of getting a unique ID for every instance of an object?
2021-01-27T15:42:43Z jmercouris: the only thing that comes to mind is a singleton during intialize-instance that gives a unique ID
2021-01-27T15:43:13Z phoe: jmercouris: a counter
2021-01-27T15:43:22Z jmercouris: phoe: well, yeah, that's what I am effectively suggesting
2021-01-27T15:43:38Z jmercouris: the singleton would be the counter in my example
2021-01-27T15:43:41Z ldb: get their address
2021-01-27T15:43:46Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T15:43:48Z phoe: ldb: that is not required to be constant or unique
2021-01-27T15:43:57Z jmercouris: that's what I was afraid of
2021-01-27T15:44:04Z jmercouris: phoe: what are those numbers that slime prints?
2021-01-27T15:44:06Z jmercouris: are those unique?
2021-01-27T15:44:12Z phoe: the GC can move an instance and then create a new one at the same raw memory address.
2021-01-27T15:44:15Z phoe: jmercouris: no
2021-01-27T15:44:34Z nij: Is there a better practice to invoke shell commands that involve pipings? The example below, while work, very large and nested.. https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/os.html#piping
2021-01-27T15:44:51Z ldb: phoe: that why people could prefer conservative GC
2021-01-27T15:44:54Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T15:44:55Z jmercouris: nij: interesting that you say that, Pierre is working on something like that
2021-01-27T15:44:59Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:45:04Z nij: I'm hoping there's something like (shell '(("ls") ("sort"))
2021-01-27T15:45:07Z jmercouris: nij: he has a FOSDEM presentation, if you want early access to it, you can email him, pierre@atlas.engineer
2021-01-27T15:45:14Z jmercouris: nij: he does exactly that
2021-01-27T15:45:19Z jmercouris: well, not that syntax
2021-01-27T15:45:25Z jmercouris: his syntax is better if you ask me
2021-01-27T15:45:32Z ldb: like execv syscall?
2021-01-27T15:45:39Z nij: better than mine? excuse me ;)?
2021-01-27T15:45:51Z jmercouris: yes :-P
2021-01-27T15:46:41Z ldb: if you ask me, there's scheme shell's pipe syntax
2021-01-27T15:46:41Z nij: jmercouris: which Pierre.. I tried three of them :)
2021-01-27T15:46:49Z jmercouris: nij: it is pierre@atlas.engineer
2021-01-27T15:46:50Z nij: ldb: usable in CL?
2021-01-27T15:46:57Z jmercouris: that is his email
2021-01-27T15:47:22Z jmercouris: or mail@ambrevar.xyz if you prefer
2021-01-27T15:47:33Z ldb: nij: no, makeing a proper shell program requires some C programming
2021-01-27T15:47:53Z nij: :(
2021-01-27T15:48:12Z nij: I don't mind to invoke the shell we have..
2021-01-27T15:48:13Z jmercouris: that's not true
2021-01-27T15:48:21Z nij: Just want to run a shell command in CL.
2021-01-27T15:48:37Z jmercouris: ldb: that is simply not true
2021-01-27T15:48:53Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:48:53Z ldb: or at least some people would find it easier to use C
2021-01-27T15:48:57Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:49:31Z jmercouris: that is true
2021-01-27T15:49:55Z nij: no other better way to shell pipings in CL currently @@?
2021-01-27T15:50:08Z jmercouris: nij: I'm telling you, there ARE, just email Pierre
2021-01-27T15:50:13Z jmercouris: I don't know if he wants to release his work publicly yet
2021-01-27T15:50:24Z _death: there was this shcl project
2021-01-27T15:50:45Z jmercouris: something something lead horse to water
2021-01-27T15:51:01Z jackdaniel: there is also shelisp, it had a clever integration with the repl
2021-01-27T15:52:32Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:52:36Z drbluefall joined #lisp
2021-01-27T15:52:52Z ldb: to be honest, they're no better that zsh/fish/etc. name a few fancy ANSI colored shell programs
2021-01-27T15:53:04Z jmercouris: to be honest, you don't really need a shell
2021-01-27T15:53:14Z ldb: yup
2021-01-27T15:53:20Z jmercouris: they stem from limitations in the expression of Unix
2021-01-27T15:53:35Z jmercouris: it's really a quite stupid system, but that's neither here nor there
2021-01-27T15:53:46Z nij: how do you handle this then?
2021-01-27T15:53:48Z nij: `~/.scripts/dictionary "ordinary" | sed -r "s/\x1B\[([0-9]{1,3}(;[0-9]{1,2})?)?[mGK]//g"`
2021-01-27T15:54:01Z jmercouris: with some cl-ppcre
2021-01-27T15:54:08Z jmercouris: if I really must do this...
2021-01-27T15:54:09Z ldb: write a TECO program and mung :-)
2021-01-27T15:54:12Z nij: the sed is script is to get rid of the decorations..
2021-01-27T15:54:27Z nij: and I want to use notify-send to push the result as a notification
2021-01-27T15:54:42Z jmercouris: (uiop:run-program ...)
2021-01-27T15:55:33Z drbluefall quit (Quit: farewell)
2021-01-27T15:56:24Z nij: Jeez.. so many things to escape..
2021-01-27T15:56:38Z ldb: the traditional simple effective way to do a notification is ring the bell of your terminal
2021-01-27T15:57:00Z jackdaniel: nij: for amusement, however it is a poor thing for doing things: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2257#2257
2021-01-27T15:57:09Z jackdaniel: s/poor thing/poor way/
2021-01-27T15:57:42Z jackdaniel: sub could accept one argument and it would make it cleaner, but what did you expect from write-only hack? :)
2021-01-27T15:57:42Z nij: why is it poor?
2021-01-27T15:57:48Z _death: nij: may also be interested in https://github.com/death/dbus/blob/master/examples/notify.lisp
2021-01-27T15:57:50Z jackdaniel: it is badly written
2021-01-27T15:58:02Z ldb: poor in performance
2021-01-27T15:58:05Z nij: can't tell with my noobie eyes
2021-01-27T15:58:20Z jackdaniel: ldb: why do you think that?
2021-01-27T15:58:49Z jackdaniel: I mean, there is nothing inherently bad with this macro performance-wise, it just generalizes concept mentioned in the linked lispbook article
2021-01-27T16:00:22Z h4ck3r96962 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:00:26Z _death: jackdaniel: should use reverse though
2021-01-27T16:00:33Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:00:44Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:01:00Z nij: _death: AH it works (for notification)
2021-01-27T16:01:03Z jackdaniel: as I said, it was write-only. why should I use reverse?
2021-01-27T16:01:11Z ldb: jackdaniel: wouldn't there be penalty using stream for piping a lot of data?
2021-01-27T16:01:20Z _death: jackdaniel: because otherwise you're risking modifying a &rest list
2021-01-27T16:01:22Z jackdaniel: that depends on the implementation
2021-01-27T16:01:39Z jackdaniel: (whether there is stream penalty)
2021-01-27T16:01:43Z nij: _death: it isn't using any cli binary secretly at all?
2021-01-27T16:01:54Z jmercouris: lol
2021-01-27T16:01:58Z jmercouris: 'secretly'
2021-01-27T16:02:04Z _death: nij: no, it communicates with dbus using sockets
2021-01-27T16:02:22Z jmercouris: I mean, it is kind of secretly using a binary
2021-01-27T16:02:24Z nij 's soul is elavated, a tiny bit.
2021-01-27T16:02:28Z jmercouris: dbus is certainly communicating with a binary
2021-01-27T16:02:35Z h4ck3r96962 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:02:37Z jmercouris: that will only Work on Linux systems with a dbus bus running
2021-01-27T16:02:47Z jackdaniel: _death: yes, you are right
2021-01-27T16:03:10Z jackdaniel: rest parameter is allowed to share structure with the last argument to apply. otoh, hm, it is a macro
2021-01-27T16:03:11Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:03:23Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:03:27Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:03:34Z jackdaniel: so you can't call apply on it
2021-01-27T16:04:05Z _death: jackdaniel: the standard says the consequences are undefined, iirc
2021-01-27T16:04:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:04:42Z jackdaniel: either way using nreverse is just bad style, so I should have used reverse anyway (and even better - not reverse at all and collect subforms instead)
2021-01-27T16:04:43Z domovod joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:05:09Z drl: Is there any way to tell what SBCL features have been enabled?
2021-01-27T16:05:13Z jackdaniel: uhm
2021-01-27T16:05:14Z jmercouris: *features*
2021-01-27T16:05:20Z jmercouris: drl: ^
2021-01-27T16:05:23Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:05:29Z Bike: since it's a macro, if it modifies any part of the form there are undefined consequences, per the general restriction in 3.1.2.1.2.2
2021-01-27T16:05:39Z Bike: i always think that bit is kind of funny
2021-01-27T16:05:45Z jmercouris: Bike: spitting out facts
2021-01-27T16:06:25Z jackdaniel: thanks for providing the section, I was looking for it
2021-01-27T16:06:53Z jmercouris: what if you make a copy of the form?
2021-01-27T16:07:02Z domovod quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T16:07:05Z jmercouris: how can we copy objects in CL actually?
2021-01-27T16:07:11Z _death: copy-list
2021-01-27T16:07:18Z h4ck3r96962 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:07:22Z jmercouris: I'm talking about a generalizable way to copy objects in memory
2021-01-27T16:07:23Z jmercouris: possible?
2021-01-27T16:07:25Z Bike: nope
2021-01-27T16:07:35Z _death: cue kmp article
2021-01-27T16:07:37Z jmercouris: so we have to implement our own clone methods for any objects we wish to copy?
2021-01-27T16:07:40Z jmercouris: KMP?
2021-01-27T16:08:07Z _death: https://nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2021-01-27T16:08:10Z Bike: pretty much. what copying means can vary depending on the kind of object and what you're doing with it, which is why C++ has all that crazy stuff about custom copy constructors
2021-01-27T16:08:44Z jmercouris: ah yes
2021-01-27T16:08:46Z Bike: since unlike C++ the language runtime doesn't need to make new copies of objects, there's no need for some kind of specializable copy
2021-01-27T16:08:48Z jmercouris: I've read this article I think 3 years ago now
2021-01-27T16:08:50Z jmercouris: I forgot
2021-01-27T16:09:27Z Bike: (there are copying collectors, but then the old version is invalid, and they're only concerned about the bytes, so it's fine i guess)
2021-01-27T16:09:30Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:09:56Z _death: Bike: since there can be only one copy constructor, it doesn't solve the problem
2021-01-27T16:10:17Z drl: jmercouris,  What do you mean?
2021-01-27T16:10:39Z jmercouris: drl: when you nod your head yes, but you want to say no, what do you mean?
2021-01-27T16:10:45Z jmercouris: drl: in a REPL type in *features*
2021-01-27T16:10:49Z Bike: oh, and if it wasn't clear, if you copy the form passed to a macro you can do whatever you want with the copy
2021-01-27T16:11:00Z jmercouris: drl: it will list to you all of the features enabled in your SBCL as a list
2021-01-27T16:11:05Z Bike: assuming you're only manipulating the actually copied bits and not any uncopied deeper structure, obvs
2021-01-27T16:11:18Z jmercouris: drl: it is a special variable, for example we have :SB-THREAD, or :SB-FUTEX
2021-01-27T16:11:30Z jmercouris: Bike: I figured as much
2021-01-27T16:11:40Z _death: Bike: also, usually the "solution" is a clone member function.. that can handles subclasses etc.. but then, you may need multiple such functions.. clone_shallow, clone_deep, clone_everything_but_this and clone_everything_replacing_that
2021-01-27T16:11:53Z Bike: yeah
2021-01-27T16:11:54Z drl: jmercouris, Thanks.
2021-01-27T16:12:18Z Bike: all i was getting at is that the reason C++ has copy constructors is because the language semantics means "assignments" might actually be copies, and stuff like that
2021-01-27T16:12:20Z beach: Someone should teach minion about that article by Kent Pitman, so that we can say "minion: please tell jmercouris about copying" and "minion: please tell so-and-so about equality".
2021-01-27T16:12:50Z jmercouris: drl: you are most welcome
2021-01-27T16:13:29Z _death: beach: the cliki support could be used, if it even works nowadays
2021-01-27T16:13:36Z jmercouris: at least cloning of primitives could be relatively simple
2021-01-27T16:14:01Z beach: _death: Does it, though?
2021-01-27T16:14:14Z jmercouris: C L I K I W O R K S
2021-01-27T16:14:17Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:14:21Z _death: minion: tell minion about closer-mop
2021-01-27T16:14:23Z minion: closer-mop: https://www.cliki.net/closer-mop
2021-01-27T16:14:28Z beach: YAY!
2021-01-27T16:14:40Z domovod joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:14:42Z jmercouris: who maintains M I N I O N ?
2021-01-27T16:14:44Z Bike: there are built in coperators for cloning proper lists and trees, provided they aren't circular
2021-01-27T16:14:50Z Bike: operators
2021-01-27T16:14:59Z Bike: as well as structs. copying circular structures is kind of a huge pain though.
2021-01-27T16:15:07Z jmercouris: S E N T I N E L
2021-01-27T16:15:15Z jmercouris: is there a standard sentinel object ?
2021-01-27T16:15:23Z jmercouris: some sort of convention perhaps?
2021-01-27T16:15:45Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:15:57Z beach: jmercouris: Copying circular structures can be handled by the use of a hash table.
2021-01-27T16:15:57Z jmercouris: I guess the copy could mantain the first element it processes and if it hits an EQ with the same element, it halts
2021-01-27T16:16:09Z jmercouris: beach: similar to what I just said?
2021-01-27T16:16:22Z beach: jmercouris: It would have to hold every object.
2021-01-27T16:16:30Z jmercouris: beach: I guess so
2021-01-27T16:16:33Z beach: Circularity is not always back to the first object.
2021-01-27T16:16:33Z Bike: yeah, you basically have to have a hash table
2021-01-27T16:16:42Z Bike: it's doable, just kind of a pain is all
2021-01-27T16:17:29Z beach: READ does it, and Cleavir does it for ASTs and such.
2021-01-27T16:17:39Z beach: But yeah, a pain to code.
2021-01-27T16:18:32Z beach: And PRINT.
2021-01-27T16:18:56Z h4ck3r96962 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:20:13Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-27T16:20:53Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:22:06Z _death: beach: I used eclector the other day.. works great ;)
2021-01-27T16:23:13Z beach: _death: Yes, it does, all thanks to scymtym_.  I haven't touched it for quite some time.
2021-01-27T16:25:35Z h4ck3r96962 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:26:15Z nij left #lisp
2021-01-27T16:26:19Z h4ck3r96962 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:26:31Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella)
2021-01-27T16:26:43Z beach: It's the only reader of SICL.  And if I were to implement a Common Lisp system the "traditional" way, i.e., write a base system in C or C++, I would write a very primitive reader, capable only of reading the Eclector code, in the implementation language.
2021-01-27T16:27:45Z jmercouris: beach: since SICL is built with SBCL, does that mean the performance of SICL is bottlenecked by SBCL until a time that SICL can build itself?
2021-01-27T16:28:02Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:28:18Z beach: No.  SBCL is just used for executing the bootstrapping procedure and the compiler during bootstrapping .
2021-01-27T16:28:43Z jmercouris: why must SBCL be used, can ANY compiler be used for bootstrapping?
2021-01-27T16:29:09Z beach: Any conforming Common Lisp system that also supports closer-mop should be possible.
2021-01-27T16:29:43Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:30:22Z jmercouris: will SICL ever be a complete implmentation used by individuals? or is it destined to be a research instrument?
2021-01-27T16:30:54Z beach: I should hope the former.
2021-01-27T16:31:50Z jackdaniel: since sicl is modular some of its modules are already used by individuals (via clasp)
2021-01-27T16:32:08Z jackdaniel: in other words is already used by individuals
2021-01-27T16:32:09Z jmercouris: I wonder when CLASP will be more accessible
2021-01-27T16:32:13Z beach: jmercouris: We have invented so many techniques that have the potential to make SICL faster than any other implementation, and it is certainly much easier to maintain.  But there is a lot of work left.
2021-01-27T16:32:13Z Guest26569 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T16:32:14Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:32:17Z jmercouris: that's one I really look forward to
2021-01-27T16:32:28Z Guest26569 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:32:32Z jmercouris: beach: can SICL bootstrap SICL?
2021-01-27T16:32:56Z beach: Not yet, since we can't yet produce an executable.
2021-01-27T16:33:11Z beach: jmercouris: Clasp exists, and uses plenty of SICL stuff.
2021-01-27T16:33:14Z jmercouris: no ability to save an image? no ability to reload an image?
2021-01-27T16:33:42Z jmercouris: beach: yeah, but it is not accessible for a casual user, installing Clasp is difficult for a typical person
2021-01-27T16:33:48Z beach: No ability to even create an executable that can be started by typing `sicl' to the shell.
2021-01-27T16:34:05Z beach: Ah, yes, I see.
2021-01-27T16:34:28Z Bike: we're working on that. slowly. the build experience is probably the worst part of clasp right now.
2021-01-27T16:34:30Z jmercouris: do you work with any teams to ensure that your work from SICL gets ported?
2021-01-27T16:34:38Z jmercouris: or do you just publish it and hope that they adopt it?
2021-01-27T16:34:56Z Bike: well, he started cleavir and we're using that in clasp now
2021-01-27T16:35:05Z jmercouris: Bike: it certainly is, I would have seriously considered writing Qt bindings for Clasp if it had been easier to get started, but I figured nobody would help
2021-01-27T16:35:30Z jmercouris: Bike: the question is, was this a cooperative effort, or did Clasp just integrate Cleavir because it existed
2021-01-27T16:35:47Z Bike: yeah, sorry. we don't have a lot of people. I'm not good with build system stuff, and the people who are are busy trying to fix it for other people.
2021-01-27T16:36:07Z beach: jmercouris: Several people hang out in #sicl and they are both helping out and taking some inventions elsewhere (like scymtym_ implementing "fast generic dispatch" for SBCL).
2021-01-27T16:36:23Z Bike: it's a cooperative effort in that other clasp developers and i have done plenty of work on cleavir
2021-01-27T16:36:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:36:35Z Bike: if you mean, like, did beach go out and try to sell drmeister on it, i actually don't know
2021-01-27T16:36:38Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-27T16:36:57Z beach: No, it's the other way around.  drmeister essentially begged me to use it.
2021-01-27T16:37:40Z beach: jmercouris: There is a project now to implement my "fast generic dispatch" for ECL.
2021-01-27T16:37:41Z awkravchuk quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T16:37:41Z jlpeters quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:37:50Z kilimanjaro quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:37:50Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:37:55Z ralt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:37:55Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:37:56Z griffinbyatt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:38:06Z rme quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:07Z yonkunas quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:07Z splittist_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:07Z sgithens quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:07Z jsatk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:07Z dnm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:07Z yottabyte quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:08Z Bike: heh, makes sense
2021-01-27T16:38:08Z banjiewen__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:12Z alanz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:12Z gjnoonan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:13Z CEnnis91 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:14Z avicenna quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:14Z billstclair quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:14Z buoy49 quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:14Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:14Z pent quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:14Z Balooga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:14Z lukego quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:14Z gendl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:14Z theruran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:14Z jerme_ quit (Read error: No route to host)
2021-01-27T16:38:14Z mpontillo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:15Z ffwacom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:15Z bytesighs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:15Z stylewarning quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:15Z p_l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:15Z gaze__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:15Z travv0 quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:15Z parisienne quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:15Z conjunctive quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:16Z jackdaniel: to be precise: there is some groundwork done and there is a person who wants to carry it (if their supervisor agrees)
2021-01-27T16:38:17Z mgsk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:17Z johs quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:18Z beach: jmercouris: And karlosz wrote a Cleavir-based compiler for CLISP.
2021-01-27T16:38:20Z sz0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:20Z waleee-cl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:20Z grfn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:21Z physpi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:21Z entel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:21Z catchme quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:22Z chewbranca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T16:38:26Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:38:31Z jackdaniel: if not, I'll drag it to being implemented eventually :)
2021-01-27T16:38:51Z beach: Heh!
2021-01-27T16:39:31Z jackdaniel: somewhere between fixing bugs in ecl, mcclim and other gigs
2021-01-27T16:39:37Z rme joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:39:44Z yottabyte joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:39:45Z jerme_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:39:45Z rvirding joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:39:55Z mgsk joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:39:59Z gjnoonan joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:40:04Z selwyn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:40:06Z beach: The technique is not that complicated actually.
2021-01-27T16:40:11Z jackdaniel: n.b, recently ecl was successfully used on sailfishos to write an application with eql5
2021-01-27T16:40:14Z xanderle_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:40:18Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:40:27Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:40:27Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:40:49Z mpontillo joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:40:49Z dnm joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:40:49Z jackdaniel: (by someone™, check the mailing list:)
2021-01-27T16:40:50Z billstclair joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:40:51Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:40:56Z splittist_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:41:02Z pent joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:41:02Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:41:03Z gaze__ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:41:07Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:41:25Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:41:58Z sz0 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:42:30Z alanz joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:42:31Z lukego joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:42:31Z bytesighs joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:42:39Z jackdaniel: I know, the crucial point is a time window and a potentially costly context switch (from the attention perspective)
2021-01-27T16:42:44Z catchme joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:42:58Z entel joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:43:14Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:43:15Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:43:46Z sgithens joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:43:53Z yonkunas joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:44:06Z conjunctive joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:44:07Z grfn joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:44:17Z theruran joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:44:20Z gendl joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:44:33Z jsatk joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:44:37Z travv0 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:44:55Z xanderle_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:45:27Z XachX joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:45:29Z mjl joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:45:29Z buoy49 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:45:36Z banjiewen__ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:47:19Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:48:54Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:49:24Z nij: Why does (ql:quickload :dbus) take so much time to start up (3~5 seconds?)? Can I disable its checking?
2021-01-27T16:50:22Z avicenna joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:50:24Z ffwacom joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:50:25Z griffinbyatt joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:50:27Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:50:35Z chewbranca joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:50:36Z parisienne joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:50:40Z jlpeters joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:50:55Z p_l joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:51:15Z _death: nij: you can save a core with third party projects loaded.. though then you need to maintain that core as you update them
2021-01-27T16:51:51Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:51:55Z nij: core?
2021-01-27T16:52:27Z _death: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Function-sb_002dext-save_002dlisp_002dand_002ddie
2021-01-27T16:53:36Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:53:37Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:53:55Z p_l quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T16:53:55Z nij: OH! So I can quickload all packages I want, and save a core. Next time when I call sbcl, those packages will be loaded very fast?
2021-01-27T16:54:10Z _death: they are already loaded
2021-01-27T16:54:49Z selwyn joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:54:54Z jmercouris joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:54:59Z drmeister joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:55:00Z _death: nij: here's my make-core script https://gist.github.com/death/0b32fd6a114222fc23a57cbb750fb39b
2021-01-27T16:55:34Z jlpeters quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-27T16:55:38Z p_l joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:55:50Z parisienne quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:55:50Z avicenna quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T16:55:53Z jmercouris: I see
2021-01-27T16:56:00Z Balooga joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:56:03Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:56:05Z jmercouris: so it is a collaborative effort
2021-01-27T16:56:09Z johs joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:56:13Z _death: I don't actually save a core if quicklisp updates are available.. I update them and restart the script
2021-01-27T16:56:51Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:57:01Z stylewarning joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:57:25Z nij: How often do you restart the script @@?
2021-01-27T16:57:30Z parisienne joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:57:32Z nij: s/restart/run/
2021-01-27T16:57:32Z jlpeters joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:57:32Z beach: jmercouris: I could not have gotten this far by myself, and I won't finish it by myself either.  Luckily, there is no need.
2021-01-27T16:57:46Z jmercouris: same, for Nyxt
2021-01-27T16:57:52Z jmercouris: N Y X T
2021-01-27T16:57:52Z _death: nij: usually whenever I build a new sbcl.. that can be once or twice a month
2021-01-27T16:57:55Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:58:01Z avicenna joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:58:05Z jmercouris: If I got hit by a bus though, I imagine the project would die
2021-01-27T16:58:08Z physpi joined #lisp
2021-01-27T16:59:14Z jmercouris: better way to do this: http://dpaste.com/6YGHXRTJV ?
2021-01-27T17:00:09Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:00:37Z beach: `(:p :id ,(id paragraph) ,(text paragraph))?
2021-01-27T17:00:43Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:00:48Z jmercouris: I guess... why not
2021-01-27T17:00:55Z beach: And indentation could be improved too.
2021-01-27T17:01:22Z beach: ... or should I say "fixed".
2021-01-27T17:01:32Z jmercouris: point the finger at Mr Emacs
2021-01-27T17:01:42Z beach: Nah.
2021-01-27T17:01:48Z beach: Emacs can indent that.
2021-01-27T17:01:53Z jmercouris: I'm just following orders from C-i
2021-01-27T17:02:09Z beach: Then you must have TABs in your code.
2021-01-27T17:02:11Z nij: _death: and then you run `$ sbcl my-core`?
2021-01-27T17:02:33Z nij: I added "dbus" to the 'system list, but `$ sbcl my-core` does not have dbus already.
2021-01-27T17:02:45Z nij: I had to (ql:quickload :dbus) another time..
2021-01-27T17:03:00Z jmercouris: beach: that does happen occassionally to me, I'm not sure from whence they originate, I have disabled them...
2021-01-27T17:04:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:04:41Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:04:59Z pve: nij: you probably mean "./my-core" or "sbcl --core my-core"
2021-01-27T17:05:32Z nij: YES!
2021-01-27T17:05:35Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:05:35Z nij: <3 <3
2021-01-27T17:06:04Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:06:39Z pve: nij: depending on whether you made it executable
2021-01-27T17:08:19Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:09:20Z nij: pve: can I mix this with shebang script?
2021-01-27T17:09:40Z nij: #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script --core "/home/nij/my-core"        ?
2021-01-27T17:09:40Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:09:57Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:10:55Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-27T17:11:15Z nij: #!/home/nij/my-core --script   Ah should be just this. Worked :D
2021-01-27T17:12:48Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T17:12:54Z _death: nij: in .emacs I set slime-lisp-implementations to a list that contains an entry like (sbcl ("sbcl" "--dynamic-space-size" "8GB" "--core" "/home/death/lisp/core/my-core")) (and set slime-default-lisp to sbcl)
2021-01-27T17:13:19Z epony joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:14:59Z _death: nij: I also have a mysbcl shell script, basically sbcl --dynamic-space-size 2GB --core ~/lisp/core/my-core "$@"
2021-01-27T17:15:18Z _death: though I should likely make that 8GB ;)
2021-01-27T17:15:32Z nij: how does the 2,8 make a difference?
2021-01-27T17:15:33Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T17:15:47Z _death: nij: it makes a difference when you need more memory
2021-01-27T17:16:25Z nij: i see
2021-01-27T17:16:38Z mfiano: I think even 8 is pretty low these days. It's not like it is all allocated
2021-01-27T17:16:48Z nij: mfiano: how much you want?
2021-01-27T17:17:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:17:33Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:17:33Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:17:37Z _death: mfiano: yeah.. I just multiplied it every time, though I think I did use 16GB several times
2021-01-27T17:17:57Z mfiano: I typically keep it at half of my available memory, so 32 on most machines. It helps the GC a bit, and I typically work with decoding gigabyte or larger (on disk, so even more memory) image data
2021-01-27T17:18:01Z ffwacom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:18:01Z avicenna quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:18:01Z jlpeters quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:18:01Z griffinbyatt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:18:02Z ralt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:18:02Z chewbranca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:18:03Z parisienne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:18:06Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:18:08Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:18:41Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:19:29Z avicenna joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:19:30Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:19:32Z jlpeters joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:19:34Z parisienne joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:19:34Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:19:40Z ffwacom joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:19:42Z chewbranca joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:19:45Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:20:08Z drbluefall joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:20:43Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:20:46Z griffinbyatt joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:21:03Z drbluefall: o/
2021-01-27T17:21:17Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:21:22Z physpi joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:21:30Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:21:39Z buoy49 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:21:39Z jerme_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:21:42Z phoe: hey hi
2021-01-27T17:21:43Z kilimanjaro quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:21:43Z banjiewen__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:22:06Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:22:07Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:22:58Z _death: nij: oh, and I also have a rebuild-core script.. that deletes the sbcl fasls from .cache and .slime and builds the core
2021-01-27T17:23:26Z vassenn joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:23:35Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:24:15Z beach: drbluefall: Hello.  Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2021-01-27T17:24:26Z vassenn quit (Quit: Bye)
2021-01-27T17:24:33Z drbluefall: I am indeed ^~^
2021-01-27T17:24:50Z phoe: hello there then!
2021-01-27T17:24:54Z beach: Great!  Welcome!  What brings you to #lisp?
2021-01-27T17:24:55Z phoe: how can we help you
2021-01-27T17:25:23Z drbluefall: well I'm just getting back into CL after a while and I'd thought I'd join
2021-01-27T17:25:31Z beach: Good plan!
2021-01-27T17:25:47Z phoe: sure, let us know if you have any problems or questions
2021-01-27T17:26:04Z drbluefall nods
2021-01-27T17:26:08Z phoe: #clschool also exists for when you have questions about the basics and/or #lisp is busy with other chat
2021-01-27T17:26:15Z phoe: and #lispcafe is for all your offtopic needs
2021-01-27T17:26:38Z kilimanjaro joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:28:28Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-27T17:29:18Z mikecheck quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:31:00Z buoy49 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:31:15Z mikecheck joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:31:31Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:32:23Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:32:25Z drbluefall quit (Quit: off for hacking)
2021-01-27T17:32:35Z heisig: Speaking of helping others - are the tricks that have been posted here over the last few days (git hooks for touching ASD files, core files, elisp tricks, ...) written down somewhere?
2021-01-27T17:32:59Z heisig: Because if not, we should definitely start collecting these.
2021-01-27T17:33:03Z phoe: no idea - I assume you'd need to dig through the IRC logs and note them down
2021-01-27T17:33:11Z phoe: they are already collected in the logs, they just need to get denoised
2021-01-27T17:33:46Z Lord_of_Life quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:34:40Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:35:34Z banjiewen__ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:36:59Z jerme_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:37:05Z remby joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:38:14Z attila_lendvai: Xach, you really want me to list all the changes in a github issue, as opposed to opening a PR?!
2021-01-27T17:38:31Z attila_lendvai: Xach, or can we just make an exception and i open a PR?
2021-01-27T17:40:03Z banjiewen__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T17:41:10Z phoe: changes? do you mean somewhere in quicklisp-projects?
2021-01-27T17:41:45Z attila_lendvai remembers that he has already opened a PR to fix tagged-git, and had practically this discussion some 5 years ago
2021-01-27T17:41:57Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:42:01Z attila_lendvai: phoe, yes, i have converted 10+ repos from darcs to git, and put them on github
2021-01-27T17:42:02Z jerme_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:44:00Z nij: In this example: (local-time:now) @2019-11-13T20:02:13.529541+01:00, the timezone is shown. But no time zone shows for me on my machine. Am I doing something wrong?  https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/dates_and_times.html#the-local-time-library
2021-01-27T17:46:49Z attila_lendvai: nij, local-time was rather confused about the concept of timezones. it may have been cleaned up... (timestamps don't have a timezon. a timezone is only relevant when reading and printing/presenting timestamps for the external world)
2021-01-27T17:47:45Z phoe: @2021-01-27T17:47:28.500081Z
2021-01-27T17:47:48Z phoe: no timezone here either
2021-01-27T17:48:00Z attila_lendvai: note that Z is a timezone
2021-01-27T17:48:06Z phoe: !
2021-01-27T17:48:17Z phoe: I see
2021-01-27T17:48:44Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:49:34Z banjiewen__ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:49:40Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:49:41Z wsinatra_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:49:41Z nij: Z" what does it mean?
2021-01-27T17:51:12Z attila_lendvai: nij, note that it's impolite to ask questions from humans that can be trivially googled
2021-01-27T17:51:51Z nij: attila_lendvai: But a standard tutorial has something different from what I observe..
2021-01-27T17:52:36Z attila_lendvai: nij, that was before i pointed out that Z is a timezone
2021-01-27T17:53:45Z nij: Oh.. you mean it's literally a timezone =_=.. now I get it.
2021-01-27T17:53:53Z _death: https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3339.txt
2021-01-27T17:54:47Z nij: sorry for that :(
2021-01-27T17:55:02Z _death: nij: also, local-time is based on http://naggum.no/lugm-time.html
2021-01-27T17:55:29Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:55:29Z jerme_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:55:46Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:55:48Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T17:56:08Z _death: at least in spirit..
2021-01-27T17:56:08Z attila_lendvai: nij, no worries! just learn the lesson, and help participating in a more efficient society for the rest of your life... :)
2021-01-27T17:57:31Z attila_lendvai: i don't remember what's in the Naggum article anymore, but the timestamp representation of local-time contained a timezone, which is rather confused
2021-01-27T17:58:08Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-27T17:58:12Z _death: attila_lendvai: it needs to include a timezone, because it represents a _local_ time
2021-01-27T17:58:31Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:58:56Z sz0 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T17:59:08Z _death: but I think it's confused because it should include an actual reference to a timezone, rather than the timezone shift that happens to be mandated at that instant
2021-01-27T17:59:23Z _death: *just the timezone shift
2021-01-27T18:00:27Z avicenna quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:00:32Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:00:33Z bytesighs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:00:37Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:00:43Z jlpeters quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:00:44Z avicenna joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:00:45Z attila_lendvai: _death, the timezone is the property of the presentation context, not that of a timestamp. it's only relevant when the timestamp is actaully presented to a human somewhere.
2021-01-27T18:00:45Z _death: then again, it depends on what you use it for ;)
2021-01-27T18:00:48Z bytesighs joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:00:58Z jlpeters joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:01:05Z drmeister joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:01:23Z physpi joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:01:51Z _death: attila_lendvai: sure, for some uses that's reasonable.. for others, you may want to include it as provenance information
2021-01-27T18:03:02Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:03:05Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T18:03:34Z _death: attila_lendvai: but local-time actually represents timestamps as you say
2021-01-27T18:04:13Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:04:23Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:04:51Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:04:51Z attila_lendvai: either way, l-t used to have several operatons defined on those values that didn't make much sense.
2021-01-27T18:04:54Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:04:54Z rme quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:04:54Z theruran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:05:10Z rme joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:05:28Z theruran joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:05:28Z gendl joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:05:32Z attila_lendvai: i cleaned up much of l-t at one point, added some tests, but still left a largeish TODO
2021-01-27T18:05:40Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:06:41Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T18:07:00Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:07:43Z galex-713 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T18:08:25Z X-Scale joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:08:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:11:55Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-27T18:12:59Z j0nd0e quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T18:13:18Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:13:50Z theruran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:13:50Z physpi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:13:50Z avicenna quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:13:54Z gendl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:14:02Z rme quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:14:08Z jlpeters quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:14:11Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:14:14Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:14:14Z bytesighs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:14:54Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T18:16:05Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:17:03Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:17:04Z bitmapper quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:17:21Z dnm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:17:29Z ralt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:17:30Z billstclair quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:17:41Z lukego quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:17:41Z chewbranca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:17:41Z yottabyte quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:17:42Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:07Z physpi joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:24Z dnm joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:26Z XachX joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:30Z avicenna joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:41Z gendl joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:44Z yottabyte joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:44Z chewbranca joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:46Z bytesighs joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:48Z jlpeters joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:48Z billstclair joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:49Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:50Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:55Z theruran joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:18:59Z drmeister joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:19:00Z lukego joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:19:13Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:19:26Z catchme quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-27T18:19:53Z rme joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:19:58Z sz0 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:21:07Z j0nd0e joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:23:40Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:23:43Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T18:25:10Z XachX quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:16Z lukego quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:16Z dnm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:16Z yottabyte quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:21Z vhost- quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-01-27T18:25:24Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:25:24Z avicenna quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:24Z bytesighs quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:24Z jlpeters quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:24Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:24Z billstclair quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:24Z chewbranca quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:26Z ralt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:27Z rme quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:28Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:31Z gendl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:25:41Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T18:26:08Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:27:17Z gendl joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:27:29Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:27:33Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:27:38Z theruran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:28:20Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:28:28Z vhost- joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:28:35Z XachX joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:30:10Z bytesighs joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:30:13Z rme joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:30:14Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-27T18:30:34Z yottabyte joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:31:05Z liberliver quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T18:31:22Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:31:49Z dnm joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:31:50Z billstclair joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:31:52Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:31:57Z Guest26569 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T18:31:59Z drmeister joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:32:00Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:32:12Z Guest26569 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:32:37Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:33:10Z lukego joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:33:16Z avicenna joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:33:19Z chewbranca joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:33:19Z jlpeters joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:33:40Z theruran joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:34:27Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T18:34:36Z sz0 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:34:43Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:35:17Z dbotton: If I have a project in quicklisp and also have same project checked out in say my ~/common-lisp directory - which one is used when I do (ql:quicklisp :xxx)
2021-01-27T18:35:27Z phoe: the local-projects one
2021-01-27T18:35:57Z phoe: you can also (asdf:system-source-directory :phoe-toolbox)
2021-01-27T18:36:04Z phoe: and check out for yourself
2021-01-27T18:38:03Z dbotton: Ok and is there a way to easily get the directory (in lisp) of the location a project was installed from quicklisp
2021-01-27T18:38:33Z phoe: (asdf:system-source-directory :alexandria) ;=> #P"/home/phoe/.roswell/lisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/alexandria-20200925-git/"
2021-01-27T18:38:35Z nij quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T18:38:43Z phoe: is that what you are looking for? in this case I have pulled alexandria from QL
2021-01-27T18:38:55Z dbotton: Yes that would work
2021-01-27T18:39:19Z pranavats: Quicklisp has `where-is-system` but I doubt if it's much different from asdf's system-source-directory.
2021-01-27T18:40:31Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:41:03Z jeosol: Good morning!
2021-01-27T18:41:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:41:10Z jeosol: @styl
2021-01-27T18:41:30Z jeosol: stylewarning:?
2021-01-27T18:43:07Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:44:48Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:45:35Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:47:38Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:53:58Z gutter quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:54:39Z chewbranca quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:54:40Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:54:58Z jlpeters quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:54:59Z avicenna quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:55:00Z billstclair quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:55:00Z bitmapper quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:55:00Z theruran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:55:04Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:55:04Z lukego quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:55:04Z sz0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T18:55:12Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:56:18Z Aurora_iz_kosmos joined #lisp
2021-01-27T18:56:27Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Quit: Пока, мир.)
2021-01-27T18:56:43Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:57:05Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T18:58:47Z Xach: I believe where-is-system predates system-source-directory.
2021-01-27T18:58:53Z Xach: they do the same thing
2021-01-27T18:59:35Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-27T18:59:57Z dbotton: Thanks
2021-01-27T19:00:12Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:01:20Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:01:34Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:01:40Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-27T19:02:01Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-27T19:02:03Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:02:57Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:02:59Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-27T19:04:23Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:04:59Z dnm joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:05:24Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:07:27Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-27T19:07:32Z dbotton: That fixed up all, so now can have clog find itself and set directories for tutorials correctly etc for next quicklisp release
2021-01-27T19:07:35Z dbotton: thanks
2021-01-27T19:07:43Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-27T19:07:52Z Xach: dbotton: asdf:system-relative-pathname can be useful
2021-01-27T19:07:57Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:08:09Z Xach: it's not without problems
2021-01-27T19:08:27Z dbotton: Ill look it up
2021-01-27T19:08:44Z dbotton: I think though once I know where project is all good
2021-01-27T19:09:10Z dbotton: Most people won't use that directory for file anyways for their own projects
2021-01-27T19:10:50Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T19:11:58Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-27T19:12:16Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:14:37Z dnm joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:15:09Z theruran joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:15:20Z jlpeters joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:15:28Z avicenna joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:16:03Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T19:16:18Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:16:28Z sz0 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:18:46Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:19:53Z drmeister joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:20:39Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T19:20:49Z chewbranca joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:21:53Z lukego joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:21:58Z billstclair joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:23:45Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:27:56Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T19:28:13Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T19:30:39Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:33:21Z secretmyth joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:33:52Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T19:35:09Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:37:21Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-27T19:39:56Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:40:32Z dnm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T19:40:36Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T19:40:43Z lukego quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T19:40:46Z billstclair quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T19:40:50Z chewbranca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T19:40:56Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:40:57Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T19:41:54Z remby quit (Quit: remby)
2021-01-27T19:42:17Z billstclair joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:42:20Z drmeister joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:43:14Z dnm joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:43:25Z lukego joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:43:43Z chewbranca joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:47:47Z Xach: attila_lendvai: a PR is good in this case
2021-01-27T19:48:40Z attila_lendvai: Xach, good, then i've opened one. note that i'll probably convert more in a couple of days, so if it's not urgent for you, then i'll probably update that PR
2021-01-27T19:48:58Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T19:49:01Z Xach: attila_lendvai: there are several weeks to go
2021-01-27T19:49:05Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T19:55:51Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T19:55:56Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:01:38Z theothornhill quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T20:01:45Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:09:22Z drl joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:19:52Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T20:20:52Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:21:54Z remby joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:22:43Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T20:25:47Z jeosol quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-27T20:26:38Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:27:36Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:27:39Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T20:29:05Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-27T20:31:47Z galex-713_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T20:32:10Z Guest26569 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T20:32:26Z Guest26569 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:36:04Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:36:24Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-27T20:42:05Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:42:12Z heisig: --core
2021-01-27T20:42:19Z heisig: Oops.
2021-01-27T20:44:32Z theruran quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T20:46:36Z theruran joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:50:24Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T20:51:15Z domovod quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T20:52:08Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:54:27Z remby quit (Quit: remby)
2021-01-27T20:54:54Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:55:03Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T20:55:16Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T20:56:24Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-27T20:57:50Z caret quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T21:00:24Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T21:01:08Z Josh_2: Do any distributions do anything with the :size keyword given to defpackage?
2021-01-27T21:01:58Z Bike: looks like sbcl does.
2021-01-27T21:02:43Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-27T21:03:11Z phoe: sbcl does for sure
2021-01-27T21:03:29Z Bike: it uses it as the size to the uh... some kind of special hash table implementation the package uses.
2021-01-27T21:03:36Z easye: ABCL processes :size, but ignores it.
2021-01-27T21:04:25Z phoe: CCL does it the same as SBCL
2021-01-27T21:04:46Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:09:37Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:09:56Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:15:25Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:15:51Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:15:51Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-27T21:15:51Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:16:19Z drl quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T21:20:38Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:21:16Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:24:34Z drl joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:31:54Z Guest26569 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T21:31:59Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T21:32:11Z Guest26569 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:36:24Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:36:45Z remby joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:39:28Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T21:39:57Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:40:40Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:40:40Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T21:41:23Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:41:56Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:42:44Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T21:44:43Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:45:26Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T21:46:36Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:49:32Z wsinatra_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:49:56Z jonas[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:24Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:24Z christopheroei[m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:26Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:26Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:26Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:29Z anotherone9999[m quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:29Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:37Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:45Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:45Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:47Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:48Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:48Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:48Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:51Z jdormit[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:52Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:56Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:56Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:56Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:50:56Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:51:04Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:51:05Z ThaEwat quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:51:05Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:51:05Z posthuman_egrego quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:51:05Z Lolicon[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:51:05Z santiagopim[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:51:06Z skye0[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:51:06Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:51:14Z terpri_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T21:51:18Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:51:24Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:51:27Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:51:37Z terpri_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:51:56Z alandipert quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-27T21:52:21Z alandipert joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:52:39Z lad quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-27T21:53:02Z lad joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:53:36Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-27T21:54:30Z jdz quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T21:54:39Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:56:29Z jdz joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:57:16Z Xach joined #lisp
2021-01-27T21:59:54Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-27T22:03:21Z alandipert quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
2021-01-27T22:03:38Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T22:03:41Z alandipert joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:08:05Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-27T22:09:07Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:12:00Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:13:47Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T22:16:07Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-27T22:16:28Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:20:45Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-27T22:21:03Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:29:52Z jonathan| quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-27T22:30:13Z jonathan| joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:31:39Z Guest26569 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T22:31:54Z Guest26569 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:32:56Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T22:34:08Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:34:50Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-27T22:36:51Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-27T22:37:11Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:40:36Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-27T22:40:52Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:45:44Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:47:44Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T22:56:31Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:57:16Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T22:59:53Z Guest26569 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T23:00:09Z Guest26569 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:01:39Z remby quit (Quit: remby)
2021-01-27T23:02:16Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:02:46Z galex-713_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:02:54Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-27T23:03:01Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:03:21Z drl quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T23:04:12Z Steeve quit (Quit: end)
2021-01-27T23:05:11Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:05:46Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:05:54Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:06:41Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:07:24Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:07:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:08:09Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-27T23:08:20Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:10:20Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:10:21Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:10:26Z Guest26569 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:10:28Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:11:26Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:11:51Z ikrabbe joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:12:09Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:12:29Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:17:31Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:18:05Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:19:09Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:19:23Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:20:18Z drl joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:21:26Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:21:39Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:22:20Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:23:05Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:23:11Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:23:17Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:23:17Z remby joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:23:44Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:23:49Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-27T23:23:49Z christopheroei[m quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-27T23:23:50Z susam quit (Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM)
2021-01-27T23:23:50Z jonas[m]2 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T23:23:50Z anotherone9999[m quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T23:23:50Z deselby quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T23:23:51Z kaisyu[m] quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T23:23:51Z ey[m] quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T23:23:51Z santiagopim[m] quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T23:23:51Z loke[m] quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T23:23:51Z Lolicon[m] quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T23:25:19Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:25:25Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:29:32Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:32:54Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:32:55Z remby quit (Quit: remby)
2021-01-27T23:33:37Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T23:34:04Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:34:10Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:34:40Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-27T23:35:13Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:36:01Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:36:15Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:36:39Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:38:10Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-27T23:38:26Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:43:03Z secretmyth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-27T23:44:45Z mr-iznogud quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:47:27Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-27T23:51:19Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:51:56Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:53:22Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:53:35Z dbotton quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-27T23:54:11Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:55:54Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-27T23:55:54Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-27T23:56:06Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-27T23:56:08Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-27T23:57:22Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-28T00:00:48Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:48Z skye0[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:48Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:48Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:48Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:48Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:48Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:48Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:49Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:49Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:49Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:49Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:49Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:49Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:49Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:49Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:49Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:49Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:50Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:50Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:50Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:54Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:55Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:55Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:55Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:55Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:56Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:56Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:56Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:00:57Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:04:16Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28T00:05:14Z remby joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:07:34Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:07:37Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:11:55Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-28T00:13:50Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-28T00:24:30Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:25:08Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T00:26:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:28:23Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T00:28:50Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T00:29:00Z sm2n joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:32:26Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T00:36:49Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:37:36Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T00:39:09Z gigetoo joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:41:13Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:45:25Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T00:53:45Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T00:57:59Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T00:58:08Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:00:10Z gigetoo joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:02:05Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T01:02:18Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:02:27Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:02:44Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-28T01:02:46Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T01:03:03Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:05:04Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T01:05:26Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T01:07:21Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-28T01:07:32Z Xach joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:07:46Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T01:08:56Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:13:23Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:14:30Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:15:35Z mgxm_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:16:01Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T01:16:01Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T01:16:02Z mgxm quit (Quit: ....)
2021-01-28T01:16:02Z bilegeek quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T01:16:02Z ex_nihilo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T01:16:02Z Alfr quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T01:16:02Z gko quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T01:16:02Z mgxm_ is now known as mgxm
2021-01-28T01:16:16Z Colleen joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:16:35Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T01:16:44Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:17:07Z aindilis` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:17:53Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T01:20:14Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T01:27:57Z pillton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T01:28:16Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:28:27Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:29:29Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T01:32:36Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T01:33:48Z iozuvcxh joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:36:08Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:36:53Z iozuvcxh quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T01:38:40Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:40:36Z cron joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:41:14Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-28T01:44:41Z cron quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T01:44:59Z cron joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:45:50Z cron quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-28T01:46:11Z cron joined #lisp
2021-01-28T01:55:53Z jeosol: #vb%otd$_mp!
2021-01-28T01:57:02Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:06:16Z phantomics joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:09:36Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-28T02:15:25Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:19:28Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:19:41Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T02:19:44Z cron quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T02:20:03Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:20:11Z crond joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:20:14Z liberliver1 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:20:15Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:20:22Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-28T02:20:36Z billstclair_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:20:43Z chewbranca_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:20:58Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-28T02:21:14Z mjl_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:21:26Z travv0_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:21:41Z chewbranca quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:21:41Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:21:41Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:21:41Z travv0 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:21:41Z grfn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:21:47Z liberliver quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z parisienne quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z spacebat2 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z remby_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z grfn joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z grfn quit (Changing host)
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z grfn joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z mjl_ is now known as mjl
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z liberliver1 is now known as liberliver
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z travv0_ is now known as travv0
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z chewbranca_ is now known as chewbranca
2021-01-28T02:21:48Z billstclair_ is now known as billstclair
2021-01-28T02:21:53Z spacebat2 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:22:33Z parisienne joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:22:40Z remby quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:22:41Z remby_ is now known as remby
2021-01-28T02:24:06Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:24:07Z [d] quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T02:26:07Z [d] joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:29:01Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:30:10Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:31:21Z crond quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T02:31:22Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:31:23Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T02:31:48Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:33:26Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:39:43Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:39:47Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T02:40:35Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:40:49Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T02:41:05Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:43:17Z gko joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:43:33Z enzuru joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:44:48Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T02:49:09Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:49:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:52:09Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:54:47Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T02:55:10Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-28T02:57:57Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T03:04:44Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T03:04:46Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T03:04:46Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:06:41Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:07:50Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:08:49Z elflng joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:09:09Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T03:12:03Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T03:15:40Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:20:10Z drl quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T03:20:44Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:21:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T03:21:38Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-28T03:23:56Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:23:58Z choegusung joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:23:59Z choegusung quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-28T03:25:10Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:26:38Z aeth__ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:26:38Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T03:27:30Z aeth__ is now known as aeth
2021-01-28T03:27:38Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T03:28:35Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T03:30:02Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T03:30:38Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T03:31:39Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:32:12Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:32:57Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T03:33:59Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T03:46:21Z choegusung joined #lisp
2021-01-28T03:48:00Z choegusung quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-28T03:52:48Z Stanley00 quit
2021-01-28T03:54:32Z remby quit (Quit: remby)
2021-01-28T03:59:25Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:02:42Z remby joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:03:10Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:04:05Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-28T04:04:25Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:05:02Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T04:09:16Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-28T04:10:46Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-28T04:12:18Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:12:32Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-28T04:12:38Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T04:12:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-28T04:13:53Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T04:20:16Z torbo joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:21:37Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:23:45Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T04:25:39Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T04:26:34Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:27:51Z _linker_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T04:29:34Z enzuru joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:33:41Z remby: hello
2021-01-28T04:33:54Z beach: Hello remby.
2021-01-28T04:34:18Z remby: can you do bitmaps in lisp?
2021-01-28T04:34:27Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-28T04:34:52Z beach: Give the keyword argument :ELEMENT-TYPE 'BIT to MAKE-ARRAY.
2021-01-28T04:36:01Z remby: amazing
2021-01-28T04:36:44Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T04:38:41Z beach: Why is that "amazing"?
2021-01-28T04:39:14Z wsinatra_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-28T04:39:28Z ggoes quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-28T04:41:24Z edgar-rft: Lisp has lots of amazing bits :-)
2021-01-28T04:41:49Z remby: well I was considering how to do that in at least 3 languages and I couldn't do it so easily
2021-01-28T04:42:18Z aeth: now try making a 10D array in at least 3 languages.
2021-01-28T04:43:03Z remby: that should be technically possible? I've not tried past 3 dimesions
2021-01-28T04:43:05Z beach: remby: After you start using Common Lisp, there is typically fewer and fewer reasons to use the languages you knew before.
2021-01-28T04:43:55Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:43:56Z remby: but muh scheme :'-)
2021-01-28T04:44:02Z aeth: remby: in SBCL 2.0.11, SBCL controversially reduced its ARRAY-RANK-LIMIT from 65529 to 256.
2021-01-28T04:44:27Z remby: why was it so high by default?
2021-01-28T04:44:36Z remby: do lots of folks do db stuff?
2021-01-28T04:44:44Z beach: remby: The rank is the number of dimensions.
2021-01-28T04:44:49Z beach: remby: Not the size of the array.
2021-01-28T04:44:56Z remby: yeah
2021-01-28T04:45:11Z beach: There was probably just no reason to limit it before.
2021-01-28T04:45:44Z aeth: Well, you'll probably run out of memory with a 65529D array, but they didn't try to optimize large dimensional arrays before so they didn't really care
2021-01-28T04:45:58Z aeth: once they needed to optimize it, the particular optimization required a cap
2021-01-28T04:46:06Z remby: ah cool
2021-01-28T04:46:46Z edgar-rft: Every bit of a bit-array should have the right to live in its own dimension.
2021-01-28T04:47:05Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T04:47:28Z aeth: In some implementations it could be e.g. MOST-POSITIVE-FIXNUM, which can be up to 4611686018427387903 on a 64-bit platform if a FIXNUM is represented as 63 bits (62 bits if treated as unsigned)
2021-01-28T04:47:32Z aeth: Good luck making one of those, though
2021-01-28T04:47:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:47:53Z Bike: i kind of want to know what kind of application uses a 257 dimensional array.
2021-01-28T04:48:10Z remby: database possibly
2021-01-28T04:48:30Z Bike: what would a database use a high dimensional array for?
2021-01-28T04:48:37Z beach: That would be very wasteful as s representation for just about anything.
2021-01-28T04:48:56Z Bike: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/commit/b628f29e3b3651f8a3a83d28f17b9d514e997849 ah, here's the optimization. simpler than the last time i tried to look up the reason for an sbcl change
2021-01-28T04:48:59Z aeth: The larger it is, the more likely you'll want to use something sparse rather than just directly using array indices
2021-01-28T04:49:16Z remby: why's that?
2021-01-28T04:49:23Z remby: isn't this better for cache?
2021-01-28T04:49:25Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T04:49:39Z Bike: you're not going to fit a 257 dimensional array with appreciable dimensions into a cache, i don't think
2021-01-28T04:50:12Z remby: yeah, I can't really fathom it
2021-01-28T04:50:16Z Bike: if each dimension is 2 long, there are what, 2^257 elements in it?
2021-01-28T04:50:31Z remby: that looks correct
2021-01-28T04:50:45Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:51:00Z Bike: aeth described the change as "controversial" so i want to hear the controversy
2021-01-28T04:51:04Z Bike: i mean assuming that wasn't a joke
2021-01-28T04:51:19Z aeth: (make-array (loop :repeat 255 :collect 1) :initial-element 0)
2021-01-28T04:51:30Z aeth: (make-array (loop :repeat 255 :collect 2) :initial-element 0)
2021-01-28T04:51:40Z aeth: heh, 57896044618658097711785492504343953926634992332820282019728792003956564819968 isn't an index. So already that's too many.
2021-01-28T04:52:06Z aeth: Bike: People complain when limits are lowered, I guess
2021-01-28T04:52:17Z aeth: iirc it was resolved by calculating the memory requirements
2021-01-28T04:52:35Z beach: People should do a bit of thinking before complaining.
2021-01-28T04:52:52Z beach: I guess that's too much to ask.
2021-01-28T04:53:18Z aeth: This is a very practical array, though. (apply #'aref (make-array (loop :repeat 255 :collect 1) :initial-element 0) (loop :repeat 255 :collect 0)) ;-)
2021-01-28T04:54:34Z Bike: btw you know you can do (make-list 255 :initial-element 1) right
2021-01-28T04:55:12Z Bike: i suppose it's not any shorter than the loop golfwise
2021-01-28T04:55:44Z beach: No, but it's more specific, so preferable.
2021-01-28T04:55:52Z moon-child: even most apl implementations limit the rank of an array at 15.  I can't imagine why anybody would want anything higher than maybe 7 or 8
2021-01-28T04:56:02Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:56:40Z remby: most apl implementations are proprietary?
2021-01-28T04:56:53Z remby: or maybe this is in the wild
2021-01-28T04:56:58Z aeth: the lowest one that "works" for me is (make-array (loop :repeat 61 :collect 2) :element-type 'bit :initial-element 0)
2021-01-28T04:57:03Z aeth: but it results in a heap exhaustion
2021-01-28T04:57:39Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T04:57:44Z moon-child: remby: eh, gnu apl caps it at 8 :)
2021-01-28T04:58:18Z aeth: empirically, if sb-index is not increased, then SBCL could get away with using a cap of 63 and using the rest of the bits for something else
2021-01-28T04:59:20Z aeth: moon-child: then APL doesn't let you do this: (make-array (make-list 20 :initial-element 2) :element-type 'bit :initial-element 0)
2021-01-28T04:59:42Z ikrabbe joined #lisp
2021-01-28T04:59:53Z moon-child: aeth: well, depends on the apl impl.  April will, since it uses cl semantics
2021-01-28T04:59:59Z thatpythonboy joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:02:00Z aeth: Everything should use CL semantics.
2021-01-28T05:02:48Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T05:03:01Z moon-child: aeth: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_ar_ran.htm
2021-01-28T05:03:11Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:05:25Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T05:05:55Z remby: how long is the CL spec actually?
2021-01-28T05:07:51Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:09:39Z moon-child: 1k pages I think?  Something like that
2021-01-28T05:10:23Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T05:10:35Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:11:49Z beach: One quotation says 1350 pages.
2021-01-28T05:12:04Z ebrasca: Good morning!
2021-01-28T05:12:13Z remby: good day
2021-01-28T05:12:14Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
2021-01-28T05:13:55Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T05:14:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:15:03Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T05:15:51Z domovod joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:19:07Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T05:21:04Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:22:06Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T05:22:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:24:51Z ealfonso joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:25:42Z ealfonso: is there a way to quickload some packages in a .lisp file before the reader complains about "package X does not exist"?
2021-01-28T05:26:40Z White_Flame: #.(ql:quickload ...)
2021-01-28T05:26:58Z White_Flame: kinda hacky, only useful for scrap prototypes, don't build that into anything
2021-01-28T05:27:58Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:28:50Z White_Flame: oh, the return value will be taken as source code, so: #.(not (ql:quickload ...)) or whatever to eat it
2021-01-28T05:30:10Z enzuru quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-28T05:30:26Z enzuru joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:32:26Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T05:32:29Z aeth: probably just PROGN with a NIL at the end or PROG1 with a NIL at the start
2021-01-28T05:32:59Z drbluefall joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:40:29Z White_Flame: .oO( not code golfed enough! ;) )
2021-01-28T05:41:21Z domovod quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-28T05:45:02Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:45:38Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T05:45:54Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:46:36Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T05:47:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:47:29Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T05:47:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:47:51Z Bike quit (Quit: sleeping)
2021-01-28T05:47:51Z benjamin-l joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:49:05Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T05:49:34Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:51:02Z thatpythonboy quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T05:52:37Z theothornhill quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T05:52:44Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:53:37Z splittist_ is now known as splittist
2021-01-28T05:54:58Z benjamin-l quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-28T05:56:30Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T05:57:15Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T05:57:34Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:10:07Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:10:24Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T06:10:39Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:13:22Z drbluefall quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:13:36Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:14:27Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:16:00Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:16:18Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:21:59Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:23:16Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:26:53Z wxie1 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:29:26Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:30:38Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:30:38Z wxie1 is now known as wxie
2021-01-28T06:32:50Z jello_pudding joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:33:41Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:33:42Z pagnol joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:35:45Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:36:15Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:36:54Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-28T06:38:31Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T06:40:35Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:47:12Z remby quit (Quit: remby)
2021-01-28T06:48:44Z rumbler3_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:49:13Z grfn` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:49:29Z entel quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:49:29Z nckx quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:49:29Z grfn quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:49:30Z grfn` is now known as grfn
2021-01-28T06:49:48Z entel joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:50:09Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T06:50:11Z nckx joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:53:33Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:55:16Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T06:58:14Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T07:02:30Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:03:13Z zyz_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T07:03:36Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:04:09Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:09:07Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:12:15Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:12:19Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T07:12:54Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:21:33Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T07:25:09Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:26:53Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:29:15Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T07:29:53Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T07:31:04Z ealfonso quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T07:32:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T07:33:39Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:33:41Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T07:35:55Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:36:35Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:39:20Z iskander| joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:40:34Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:40:39Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T07:41:15Z grobe0ba quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T07:41:41Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T07:45:22Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28T07:49:32Z rumbler3_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T07:50:20Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T07:53:26Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T07:58:11Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:00:44Z remby joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:01:24Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:01:55Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:01:55Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-28T08:01:55Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:02:41Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T08:03:50Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:06:08Z logand joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:10:08Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:11:22Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:14:35Z heisig quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T08:16:08Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:20:09Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:20:09Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T08:20:09Z totoro2022 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T08:20:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:20:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T08:20:47Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:21:02Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T08:21:42Z totoro2022 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:22:43Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:25:33Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:28:43Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T08:39:06Z fourier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T08:39:34Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:39:53Z fourier joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:40:29Z ym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:40:35Z ym quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T08:40:58Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:44:34Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T08:48:10Z copec quit (Quit: checkity check out.)
2021-01-28T08:48:30Z copec joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:50:05Z Fade quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T08:51:02Z Fade joined #lisp
2021-01-28T08:54:38Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T09:01:53Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:02:25Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28T09:05:31Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:06:04Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:07:15Z remby quit (Quit: remby)
2021-01-28T09:07:27Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:10:12Z pankajsg joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:10:14Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T09:12:26Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-28T09:21:05Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:25:32Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T09:32:12Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:32:18Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-28T09:33:43Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:33:46Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:37:01Z hjudt quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-28T09:41:31Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:42:47Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T09:44:13Z borodust left #lisp
2021-01-28T09:44:33Z jeosol quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-28T09:44:40Z borodust joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:45:56Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:47:11Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T09:47:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T09:51:43Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T09:58:17Z luis: White_Flame: using EVAL-WHEN would be clearer, despite the bad code golf score :)
2021-01-28T09:59:44Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28T10:00:26Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:02:26Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T10:03:30Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:03:46Z White_Flame: luis: wasn't sure if that was sufficient in both load & compile situations
2021-01-28T10:04:19Z White_Flame: but still, .asd dependencies and a separate package.lisp file, this is the way
2021-01-28T10:05:09Z luis: White_Flame: no _need_ for a separate package.lisp file I don't think, just a common convention.
2021-01-28T10:05:30Z phoe: White_Flame: it is sufficient in both load and compile situations
2021-01-28T10:05:41Z phoe: if you provide all situations then it's enough
2021-01-28T10:06:03Z White_Flame: I tend to put exports where things are defined.  In such a case, a reevaluated defpackage whines about the empty exports not matching (in sbcl)
2021-01-28T10:06:22Z phoe: uiop:define-package solves this
2021-01-28T10:07:08Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T10:08:33Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T10:09:35Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:14:13Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T10:15:33Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:19:38Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T10:19:56Z grobe0ba joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:22:13Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:24:23Z Codaraxis__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28T10:24:35Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-28T10:24:53Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T10:25:08Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-28T10:25:51Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:29:39Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:33:35Z scymtym_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T10:34:09Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:38:37Z arora joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:41:03Z gareppa joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:49:24Z pagnol quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T10:51:19Z gareppa quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T10:52:42Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T10:53:28Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:53:56Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:54:41Z paulj joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:57:02Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T10:57:23Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T11:00:06Z vegansbane6 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-28T11:01:14Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T11:01:32Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T11:03:02Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-28T11:07:17Z amerlyq joined #lisp
2021-01-28T11:12:52Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T11:17:33Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28T11:19:42Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T11:25:14Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T11:26:28Z arora quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-28T11:27:50Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-28T11:28:27Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T11:30:06Z vegansbane6 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T11:31:27Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-28T11:33:02Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T11:34:44Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T11:35:26Z sveit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T11:36:05Z simplegauss quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T11:36:56Z thonkpod quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-28T11:39:17Z thonkpod joined #lisp
2021-01-28T11:40:20Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-28T11:40:21Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T11:43:33Z sveit joined #lisp
2021-01-28T11:44:04Z simplegauss joined #lisp
2021-01-28T11:45:17Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T11:49:35Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T11:54:22Z Xach quit (Changing host)
2021-01-28T11:54:22Z Xach joined #lisp
2021-01-28T12:00:51Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T12:05:47Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T12:11:40Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T12:13:13Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T12:16:00Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T12:16:37Z terpri joined #lisp
2021-01-28T12:16:40Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T12:17:31Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T12:17:58Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28T12:26:10Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T12:29:09Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-28T12:29:28Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T12:29:29Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T12:32:08Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-28T12:34:14Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T12:40:10Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp
2021-01-28T12:49:30Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-28T12:49:50Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T12:51:59Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-28T12:52:16Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-28T12:52:39Z jmercouris: I do not understand how cl-markup markup macro works
2021-01-28T12:53:01Z jmercouris: I have the following: (user-interface::object-expression q) -> (:P :ID 1 "")
2021-01-28T12:53:22Z jmercouris: (markup:markup (:P :ID 1 "")) -> <p id=\"1\"></p>
2021-01-28T12:53:52Z jmercouris: and of course I could do `(markup:markup ,(user-interface::object-expression q))
2021-01-28T12:54:17Z jmercouris: however, I want to just be able to do something like (markup:markup (user-interface::object-expression q))
2021-01-28T12:55:40Z jmercouris: I want to take an object, and have it emit some SEXP by some function and have that be processed by cl-markup
2021-01-28T12:55:52Z jmercouris: however markup:markup is a macro...
2021-01-28T12:56:12Z jmercouris: which means it wont process my form within the markup sexp!
2021-01-28T12:56:23Z jmercouris: unless I further wrap it :-(
2021-01-28T12:56:29Z jmercouris: unless there is something I am missing here
2021-01-28T12:56:35Z jmercouris: some clever trick...
2021-01-28T13:01:53Z jackdaniel: how about (defun markup* (object) (eval `(markup ,object))
2021-01-28T13:02:32Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T13:02:34Z jmercouris: markup* does exist as a functional version, maybe I should
2021-01-28T13:03:15Z jackdaniel: why didn't you use it in the first place then?
2021-01-28T13:03:36Z jmercouris: it involved changing a lot of other code
2021-01-28T13:03:45Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:05:14Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:09:25Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T13:09:35Z jmercouris: lots of commas
2021-01-28T13:17:37Z phoe: for the future, you can also funcall the macro-function
2021-01-28T13:18:20Z jmercouris: I could make a macro that evalutes forms?
2021-01-28T13:18:30Z jmercouris: or is that a dangerous road to go down
2021-01-28T13:18:39Z phoe: what do you mean, evaluates?
2021-01-28T13:18:40Z jmercouris: I wwas thinking evaluate if it is one of my user-interface library forms, otherwise do not
2021-01-28T13:18:41Z phoe: it calls EVAL inside?
2021-01-28T13:18:44Z jmercouris: yeah
2021-01-28T13:18:49Z jmercouris: maybe that is really dirty though
2021-01-28T13:18:49Z phoe: dangerous
2021-01-28T13:18:55Z jmercouris: also the object would have to already exist
2021-01-28T13:19:01Z phoe: especially because EVAL works in a null environment, so bugs will happen
2021-01-28T13:19:02Z jmercouris: and it may not exist at that time
2021-01-28T13:19:21Z jmercouris: I'll meditate on this problem some more
2021-01-28T13:20:11Z jackdaniel: if I understand correctly, you will need to change the code anyway, so "lot's of code" argument goes away -- in that case what is the problem with using the function markup* in the library?
2021-01-28T13:20:28Z jmercouris: I guess nothing really
2021-01-28T13:21:10Z jmercouris: I guess my library could always be used with markup:markup* only
2021-01-28T13:21:16Z jmercouris: that would really simplify things
2021-01-28T13:21:31Z jmercouris: I was trying to support aslo markup:markup
2021-01-28T13:21:38Z jmercouris: s/aslo/also
2021-01-28T13:21:44Z jmercouris: seems I need to practice with sl some more
2021-01-28T13:21:49Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:24:11Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28T13:26:13Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T13:28:16Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:29:53Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T13:30:12Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga)
2021-01-28T13:30:29Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:31:23Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:32:35Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:36:21Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T13:45:45Z grobe0ba_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:45:55Z shka_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T13:45:55Z grobe0ba quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T13:46:06Z vegansbane69 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:46:14Z grobe0ba_ is now known as grobe0ba
2021-01-28T13:46:39Z andreyorst` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T13:46:39Z vegansbane6 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T13:47:11Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:47:53Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T13:48:16Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T13:52:07Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:53:26Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T13:53:54Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:54:09Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-28T13:54:42Z jonatack quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-28T13:59:44Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:00:37Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:01:53Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:02:53Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-28T14:04:37Z gxt joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:06:52Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T14:10:14Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:11:33Z nij: In the source code, it seems that #'apply is ill-defined. https://bpa.st/NYNBC .. Indeed, the first cond drops you in an infinite loop apparently. And indeed, by copying the code and change each "apply" to "my-apply", I obtained a function #'my-apply that never ends. What's going on here?
2021-01-28T14:11:47Z nij: Source code as in `/usr/share/sbcl-source/src/code`.
2021-01-28T14:13:38Z edgar-rft: nij: (answer to your clschool question from a few hours ago) if you *need* AND/OR functions, for example as arguments to FUNCALL or APPLY, the the intended way is to use EVERY (function) instead of AND (macro), and SOME (function) instead of OR (macro)
2021-01-28T14:14:03Z Bike: nij: sbcl has a compiler transformation that converts APPLY calls to something else.
2021-01-28T14:14:05Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:14:27Z Bike: this definition is for the case where the actual apply function is called, like because it's used as an argument to some higher order function.
2021-01-28T14:15:00Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:15:31Z phoe: nij: same stuff as with (defun car (x) (car x))
2021-01-28T14:15:55Z phoe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/d4740e38bd4e541c29827d922737147b6813e8b3/src/code/list.lisp#L30
2021-01-28T14:16:06Z beach: That kind of code is not pretty if you ask me.
2021-01-28T14:16:15Z phoe: IIRC we were talking about it before
2021-01-28T14:16:20Z phoe: and it probably was even with you
2021-01-28T14:16:28Z beach: Possibly.
2021-01-28T14:16:30Z phoe: beach: sure it isn't, but that's what works
2021-01-28T14:16:38Z nij: edgar-rft: Oh! Indeed! #'SOME and #'EVERY are almost what I want, only did I need a curried version. I have (finally) implemented one myself.. but will switch back to currying those two standard functions. thanks :)
2021-01-28T14:16:38Z phoe: beach: I didn't meant you, I meant nij
2021-01-28T14:17:00Z beach: OK.
2021-01-28T14:17:04Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:17:20Z jackdaniel: there are other things that could work too, and some of them are pretty
2021-01-28T14:17:47Z nij: ......
2021-01-28T14:17:52Z nij: I don't like this, by a lot.
2021-01-28T14:18:02Z nij: But lemme try to see why they did it @@
2021-01-28T14:18:04Z phoe: if you come from a mathematical background then sure thing you don't like it
2021-01-28T14:18:18Z phoe: the inner CAR call is open-coded by the compiler.
2021-01-28T14:18:24Z nij: me \in {math person}
2021-01-28T14:20:17Z jackdaniel: it is ugly also from the programmer background - this definition is not technically correct and relies on information that is not available locally
2021-01-28T14:20:17Z nij: Then the problem becomes.. how would the user know which apply is which apply?
2021-01-28T14:20:17Z nij: And which car is which car?
2021-01-28T14:20:17Z phoe: nij: there's only one CAR and only one APPLY
2021-01-28T14:20:17Z jackdaniel: (not technically correct when taken in isolation)
2021-01-28T14:20:17Z Xach: nij: as kent pitman once said, the model you can use initially is: "built-in functions are given by god"
2021-01-28T14:20:17Z beach: nij: APPLY can not be written in portable Common Lisp.
2021-01-28T14:20:17Z phoe: the user doesn't need to understand compiler internals in order to use CAR or APPLY
2021-01-28T14:20:17Z nij: Let's just talk about CAR as it's much shorter, and the problem seems to be the same :)
2021-01-28T14:20:17Z nij: (defun car (list) (car list))
2021-01-28T14:20:17Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T14:20:17Z phoe: nij: by doing DEFUN CAR, you become a Common Lisp implementer
2021-01-28T14:20:24Z nij: Sure.
2021-01-28T14:20:29Z phoe: how does your implementation represent cons cells?
2021-01-28T14:20:33Z nij: I understand the need of special operators.
2021-01-28T14:20:41Z phoe: okay then
2021-01-28T14:20:47Z nij: But I hope they make them clear .. and do not redefine them afterwards
2021-01-28T14:20:47Z jackdaniel: beach: could it be implemented if we exploit the fact, that call-arguments-limit is an integer?
2021-01-28T14:20:53Z phoe: (defun car (list) (magic))
2021-01-28T14:21:02Z phoe: that's an equivalent definition
2021-01-28T14:21:04Z beach: jackdaniel: Possibly so, sure.
2021-01-28T14:21:23Z jackdaniel: I mean: portably
2021-01-28T14:21:32Z beach: I believe so, yes.
2021-01-28T14:21:37Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T14:21:48Z phoe: also, "they make them clear" - who's "they"?
2021-01-28T14:21:49Z jackdaniel: got it
2021-01-28T14:22:06Z Bike: you can have (apply function arg1 ... argl) as (multiple-value-call function arg1 ... (values-list argl)), which is what sbcl does. and then since multiple-value-call is a special operator it's "fine" in that the magic is on the special operator
2021-01-28T14:22:08Z phoe: jackdaniel: oh, dispatching on the list length?
2021-01-28T14:22:11Z nij: phoe: who's they --> the secret spirits who implemented sbcl xD
2021-01-28T14:22:32Z drbluefall joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:22:33Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:22:40Z jackdaniel: yes, and transforming to funcall
2021-01-28T14:22:52Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:22:59Z nij: oh ok i think im a bit calmed down
2021-01-28T14:23:07Z nij: this is a Lisp 3 issue
2021-01-28T14:23:09Z beach: Bike: Interesting.
2021-01-28T14:23:14Z nij: (not Lisp 1 nor Lisp 2)
2021-01-28T14:23:21Z jackdaniel: n.b ecl does that to a certain number of arguments (64 if I recall correctly), after that it indeed passes arguments by other means
2021-01-28T14:23:40Z nij: namely, a symbol can not only contain a normal object and a function
2021-01-28T14:23:46Z nij: it can as well contain a special operator
2021-01-28T14:23:54Z Bike: well, they're also operators.
2021-01-28T14:23:58Z phoe: I'll have an issue with the word "contains"
2021-01-28T14:24:09Z phoe: and also the namespaces for functions, macros, and specops are actually the same namespace.
2021-01-28T14:24:11Z nij: before the epic  (defun car (list) (car list)), car was only a special operator
2021-01-28T14:24:12Z nij:  
2021-01-28T14:24:25Z phoe: it wasn't though, it's just a function
2021-01-28T14:24:36Z Bike: no, nij is on the right track.
2021-01-28T14:24:36Z nij: :( then im grumpy again xD
2021-01-28T14:24:36Z caret joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:24:58Z phoe: beach noted in the previous discussion that it should have been written differently if this were clean code
2021-01-28T14:25:12Z Bike: here's a better example for you. write your my-apply, and then do (define-compiler-macro my-apply (function &rest arglist) `(multiple-value-call ,@(butlast arglist) (values-list ,(first (last arglist)))))
2021-01-28T14:25:24Z beach: phoe: OK.
2021-01-28T14:25:26Z phoe: (defun car (x) (primop-car x))
2021-01-28T14:25:28Z Bike: that's pretty close to how sbcl works, if you assume that the compiler macro expansion is always used.
2021-01-28T14:25:32Z beach: nij: Maybe you prefer the SICL definition of CAR: (defun car (x) (if (consp x) (cleavir-primop:car x) (if (null x) x (error...))))
2021-01-28T14:25:34Z phoe: or rather
2021-01-28T14:25:36Z phoe: oh yes, this one
2021-01-28T14:25:58Z nij: oh yes!
2021-01-28T14:26:10Z nij: At least it makes it clear that it's from another primop!
2021-01-28T14:26:26Z beach: The primop is indeed treated as a special operator.
2021-01-28T14:26:30Z beach: There is no other way.
2021-01-28T14:26:37Z nij: I think this is a good way.
2021-01-28T14:26:46Z nij: Special operators must exist. I have no problem with that.
2021-01-28T14:26:49Z pfdietz40 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:27:02Z aeth: well...
2021-01-28T14:27:08Z aeth: in theory it could just be done in the hardware instead
2021-01-28T14:27:11Z nij: Hi aeth
2021-01-28T14:27:20Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-28T14:27:20Z aeth: (there's just no money in Lisp machines anymore)
2021-01-28T14:27:21Z pfdietz quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-28T14:27:31Z aeth: hi nij
2021-01-28T14:27:34Z nij: And even with pencils and papers!
2021-01-28T14:27:41Z beach: aeth: You would still have to connect the CAR function to whatever the hardware does.
2021-01-28T14:28:00Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-28T14:28:01Z nij: pencil + paper + indefinite lifespan => turing machine
2021-01-28T14:28:16Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:28:50Z nij: MMk.. so for now I don't want to change sbcl implementors' mind. (`$ whoami` xD)
2021-01-28T14:28:52Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T14:29:10Z nij: The practical question is then.. how do I tell if something dirty is happening?
2021-01-28T14:29:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:29:17Z phoe: what do you mean, dirty
2021-01-28T14:29:19Z nij: Is there a list of "exceptions"?
2021-01-28T14:29:28Z phoe: yes, it's called the CL package
2021-01-28T14:29:38Z nij: E.g. (defun car (list) (car list)) <-- this is not clean, thus dirty.
2021-01-28T14:29:38Z nij:  
2021-01-28T14:29:50Z phoe: the implementation can do whatever it wants while it implements the functionalities provided by symbols in the CL package
2021-01-28T14:29:53Z beach: nij: When you look at system code, in order to understand it fully, you need to understand how the system does compilation and bootstrapping.
2021-01-28T14:29:59Z jackdaniel: nij: you may treat it as an implementaiton detail - what Xach quoted is very accurate
2021-01-28T14:30:32Z nij: jackdaniel: agree, and agree with Xach's quote.
2021-01-28T14:30:56Z nij: But I hope there's a way to tell if something magical is happening, without looking into the source of the implementation.
2021-01-28T14:31:13Z nij: There should be a list specifying where magics could be, right?
2021-01-28T14:31:13Z beach: nij: Again, when you look at system code, in order to understand it fully, you need to understand how the system does compilation and bootstrapping.
2021-01-28T14:31:15Z phoe: as I said X weeks ago, a Lisp implementation can implement the function CL:+ by sending a question to Mechanical Turk over the internet.
2021-01-28T14:31:22Z phoe: and it'll be conforming.
2021-01-28T14:31:47Z nij: beach: right, agree on that too. Is reading sbcl's source the only way to achieve?
2021-01-28T14:31:50Z phoe: the list specifying where magics are would need to be maintained by each implementation, and I have no idea of what benefit would be other than for maintainers and implementers.
2021-01-28T14:31:55Z jackdaniel: nij: from the "outside" behavior operators specified as functions work like functions, period - nothing dirty happens
2021-01-28T14:32:02Z beach: nij: They may have documented it too.
2021-01-28T14:32:02Z phoe: nij: yes, studying the implementation and asking people who are knowledgeable in how it works.
2021-01-28T14:32:06Z jackdaniel: you may spot something magical when you actually look into the implementation code
2021-01-28T14:32:16Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T14:32:21Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:32:26Z jackdaniel: but that's actually poking behind the event horizont :)
2021-01-28T14:32:45Z nij: jackdaniel: haha ok!
2021-01-28T14:33:16Z nij: Ok... I see.
2021-01-28T14:35:12Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-28T14:35:51Z beach: I think you will find similar "magic" in every implementation.  In SICL for instance, you will see (defclass standard-class (...) (...))
2021-01-28T14:36:25Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T14:37:00Z nij: Magic is fine. But I wish for a clear notice while magic is near ;)
2021-01-28T14:37:30Z nij: But fine, as it's not practical too much, it depends on the implementors if they want to make it clear or not. And that's their personal choice.
2021-01-28T14:37:37Z phoe: if you see a CL symbol being defined somewhere, it means that you're already in the magic zone
2021-01-28T14:38:38Z nij: Well, definition of the function #'car could be defined "recursively".
2021-01-28T14:38:46Z beach: nij: Then, I would have to annotate pretty much every class definition of a system class.  That can become quite annoying to read.
2021-01-28T14:38:53Z nij: We know that's not the case immediately because it's too easy.
2021-01-28T14:39:01Z nij: But there might be other magic that's not as easy.
2021-01-28T14:39:27Z nij: beach: as you posted, (cleavir-primop:car x) is a nice work-around.
2021-01-28T14:39:44Z nij: namely.. by specifying a certain set of namespaces where magic can happen.
2021-01-28T14:39:52Z beach: It is not a "workaround".  It is the semantics of CAR.
2021-01-28T14:40:01Z phoe: I'll repeat myself: the CL package is one such namespace :D
2021-01-28T14:40:02Z Bike: as jackdaniel noted, it's not magic that has any conceivable effect on a conforming lisp program.
2021-01-28T14:40:21Z nij: phoe: oh yeah.. that's right.
2021-01-28T14:40:24Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:40:27Z Bike: that's why there's no provision for telling you about it. You only need to care if you're curious about how sbcl is written.
2021-01-28T14:40:36Z nij: I should have said.. then, that
2021-01-28T14:40:52Z nij: "by specifying a certain set of namespaces where magic AND ONLY MAGIC can happen."
2021-01-28T14:40:54Z beach: nij: My defclass example is "magic" in that the metaclass of standard-class is standard-class so it has to exist in order to be defined this way.
2021-01-28T14:41:24Z beach: nij: It can't be fixed by namespaces.
2021-01-28T14:41:31Z Bike: things that are only special operators ARE magic in a sense that you can actually discern, which is why special-operator-p exists.
2021-01-28T14:41:34Z nij: Bike: right, i understand. I'm just itchy xD
2021-01-28T14:42:41Z nij: beach: I don't understand class yet so I can't say.. but I believe it's doable. (but not practical)
2021-01-28T14:43:02Z beach: It is both doable and practical.  I do it.
2021-01-28T14:43:13Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T14:44:32Z beach: nij: That definition makes perfect sense in that it uses the meaning of well defined operators, so it's ideal that way.  But it is not operational for the reason I mentioned.  It is the purpose of bootstrapping to make it operational.
2021-01-28T14:44:43Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T14:45:09Z beach: nij: The code would have been much less understandable if I had used some specific notation for something that can be perfectly well notated with DEFCLASS.
2021-01-28T14:45:19Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:45:22Z jackdaniel: n.b that's one of many reasons why programmer is not allowed to redefine operators in cl package (that is - the package is locked)
2021-01-28T14:45:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:47:35Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-28T14:47:54Z _death: defmacro defmacro
2021-01-28T14:48:01Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:48:24Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:48:25Z jackdaniel: (defmacro defmacro (&rest args) (cerror "Are you sure?") (error "Macros are bad for you"))
2021-01-28T14:50:13Z nij: lol
2021-01-28T14:50:22Z edgar-rft: my all-time favourite is (defum -_- nil 'zzZZ) so you can do (-_-) => zzZZ
2021-01-28T14:50:52Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:50:58Z nij: LOL
2021-01-28T14:51:03Z nij: (just did it)
2021-01-28T14:51:43Z edgar-rft: *defun of course
2021-01-28T14:52:14Z nij: Any way that I can inspect the symbol 'car, fully?
2021-01-28T14:52:45Z _death: (handler-bind ((sb-ext:symbol-package-locked-error #'continue)) (defun () () ())) ... (()) => ()
2021-01-28T14:52:54Z nij: (special-operator-p 'car) => NIL .. this only reveals 'car's normal aspect.
2021-01-28T14:53:15Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:53:30Z nij: In the source of #'special-operator-p there's a function #'info, but I cannot call it.
2021-01-28T14:54:12Z nij: (Ah.. of course cuz it is sb-impl::info .. sorry for that)
2021-01-28T14:54:15Z phoe: nij: what do you mean, inspect
2021-01-28T14:54:24Z phoe: CAR names a function in the CL package
2021-01-28T14:54:36Z phoe: that's what CL:DESCRIBE and CL:INSPECT will tell you
2021-01-28T14:54:40Z nij: To see what 'car really contains, in particular, i want to see a piece of it as a specop.
2021-01-28T14:54:51Z jackdaniel: nij: the operator you are looking for is: (defun magical-p (symbol) (eq (find-package 'cl) (symbol-package symbol)))
2021-01-28T14:54:52Z phoe: that's an implementation detail
2021-01-28T14:54:55Z nij: but as we saw car is not only a function
2021-01-28T14:55:16Z phoe: what jackdaniel said.
2021-01-28T14:55:37Z phoe: if the symbol is from the CL package, then it is magical.
2021-01-28T14:55:41Z jackdaniel: there are more magical packages surely, like sicl's primop package, but you know the drill
2021-01-28T14:55:50Z phoe: you seem to be going in circles
2021-01-28T14:55:59Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:57:26Z Bike: nij, i don't think you've really absorbed that there is NO CONFORMING WAY to see car as anything other than a function.
2021-01-28T14:57:27Z pankajsg quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T14:57:32Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T14:58:01Z sauvin_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T14:58:19Z Bike: you cannot construct a conforming program in which the fact sbcl does compiler transformations sometimes is relevant. In a way that's the entire point of compiler transformations.
2021-01-28T15:00:45Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:00:45Z nij: Bike: I fail to understand..
2021-01-28T15:00:54Z nij: (these two sentences)
2021-01-28T15:01:12Z phoe: "but as we saw car is not only a function"
2021-01-28T15:01:22Z phoe: for all conforming Lisp code, it IS only a function
2021-01-28T15:01:43Z phoe: everything else is an implementation detail.
2021-01-28T15:01:56Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T15:02:05Z JohnMS joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:02:14Z jackdaniel: I don't want to spoil the fun for you, but it may be even implemented as a C function :_)
2021-01-28T15:02:17Z phoe: in a way, that's where it stops being #lisp and starts being #sbcl or #ccl or #ecl or wherever else
2021-01-28T15:04:01Z nij: phoe: correct.
2021-01-28T15:04:02Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:04:03Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-28T15:04:03Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:04:20Z nij: jackdaniel: i'm fine with that too.
2021-01-28T15:05:18Z Bike: if you want to get into sbcl guts, you'll need to find a corresponding source-transformation, ir1 transform, or ir2 transform. there are a few functions that approximate getting at them but nothing that's easy to use since it's all sbcl guts. if you just do M-. in slime it'll usually pop up that stuff.
2021-01-28T15:06:36Z Bike: for car in particular you want the source transform in srctran.lisp, and then if that fails it goes to the ir2 convert in generic/vm-macs.lisp which is hard to get details on because it's a "reffer" into a primitive structure.
2021-01-28T15:06:47Z Bike: a ref. whatever
2021-01-28T15:07:50Z Bike: this is in addition to other transforms and things that can sometimes elide calls to the car function that are spread throughout the system.
2021-01-28T15:08:26Z pankajsg joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:10:21Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:12:05Z nij: (@_@)
2021-01-28T15:15:03Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T15:16:50Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T15:19:01Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T15:21:22Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-28T15:23:25Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:25:48Z Anonymous_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T15:26:10Z Anonymous_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:27:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T15:27:33Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-28T15:28:19Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:31:27Z JohnMS is now known as JohnMS_AWAY
2021-01-28T15:31:40Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:32:33Z whatever1eek joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:32:34Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:33:02Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T15:34:18Z whatever1eek is now known as purefunction
2021-01-28T15:37:51Z purefunction quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-28T15:39:38Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-28T15:41:10Z JohnMS_AWAY is now known as JohnMS
2021-01-28T15:41:20Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:43:46Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T15:47:56Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:50:33Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:50:49Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-28T15:51:06Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:52:03Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-28T15:52:50Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T15:53:36Z Aurora_iz_kosmos is now known as Aurora_v_kosmose
2021-01-28T15:56:05Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:57:22Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:58:04Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:59:19Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-28T15:59:21Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-28T16:01:28Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:02:32Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:02:34Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:04:55Z drbluefall quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T16:06:34Z ggoes joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:07:11Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T16:07:36Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:08:56Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T16:09:07Z lithp joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:10:32Z jonatack quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-28T16:10:44Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-28T16:13:56Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:14:48Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:15:35Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:17:48Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:19:26Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T16:19:28Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T16:19:52Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:20:19Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28T16:21:49Z remby joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:22:23Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T16:24:24Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:29:02Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-28T16:29:51Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:31:06Z remby left #lisp
2021-01-28T16:31:16Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T16:31:31Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T16:31:50Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T16:31:57Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:32:15Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:33:40Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:36:12Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T16:36:47Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:37:04Z avicenna quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T16:37:15Z avicenna joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:37:47Z jlpeters quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T16:37:47Z drmeister quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T16:38:03Z jlpeters joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:38:17Z drmeister joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:39:03Z wsinatra_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:39:04Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T16:39:44Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T16:45:35Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:49:08Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T16:50:50Z vegansbane69 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T16:53:16Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T16:53:40Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-28T17:01:27Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:04:03Z aeth__ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:04:11Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-28T17:04:18Z aeth__ is now known as aeth
2021-01-28T17:04:53Z cage__ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:04:57Z sauvin__ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:05:31Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:07:02Z pankajsg quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T17:07:02Z amerlyq quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:07:02Z xanderle quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:07:02Z sauvin_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T17:07:02Z xanderle_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:07:09Z pankajsg joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:07:10Z amerlyq joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:07:12Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-28T17:07:16Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:07:16Z cage_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:07:17Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:07:49Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:07:50Z aeth_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:08:57Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:09:54Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:10:11Z epony joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:18:50Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T17:19:16Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:19:26Z nwoob joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:20:08Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:20:49Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:21:51Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:24:53Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:25:37Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:26:49Z epony joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:28:14Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:30:02Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:31:14Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:32:58Z nwoob: I'm writing code in .lisp file  (mapcar #'add1 '(1 3 5 7 9))
2021-01-28T17:33:18Z nwoob: how do I print the values returned by mapcar
2021-01-28T17:34:25Z paulj` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:36:27Z paulj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:37:07Z nwoob: I tried to do (setf data (mapcar #'add1 '(1 3 5 7 9))) and then (data)
2021-01-28T17:37:29Z jackdaniel: hurrey, alpha-blended dashed path via xrender in McCLIM :) https://files.mastodon.social/media_attachments/files/105/634/554/978/109/689/original/cc3bbb1a7ed936b6.png
2021-01-28T17:37:31Z nwoob: but it saya undefined function: data
2021-01-28T17:38:20Z Wezl: nwoob: you can print with #'print : (print (mapcar #'add1 '(1 3 5 7 9)))
2021-01-28T17:38:31Z Wezl: or using format
2021-01-28T17:38:54Z nwoob: Wezl: how to save data returned by mapcar in another variable?
2021-01-28T17:39:46Z Wezl: nwoob: (setf variable (mapcar ...))
2021-01-28T17:40:28Z Wezl: but you access it without parentheses: (print variable) instead of (print (variable))
2021-01-28T17:42:00Z nwoob: oh right, i was accessing data with parentheses
2021-01-28T17:42:04Z nwoob: thanks Wezl
2021-01-28T17:42:10Z amerlyq: Hello, today I have two more questions on forms evaluations ;) 1) what will (defun f () (a) (b) (a)) will do if we replace
2021-01-28T17:42:22Z amerlyq: ... if we replace (a) when (b) is executed
2021-01-28T17:43:05Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:43:24Z amerlyq: I expect (a) will keep previous value because stack frame stores pointer to whole previous environment of (f) ?
2021-01-28T17:43:56Z jackdaniel: amerlyq: I don't understand your question; I think that you could gain more insightful feedback if you put more effort in writing it
2021-01-28T17:44:22Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T17:44:46Z vegansbane69 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:44:51Z amerlyq: jackdaniel: It's not that I'm lazy, it simply is fuzzy in my head. Sorry. I will try to rephrase it.
2021-01-28T17:45:35Z OlCe: amerlyq: Hi. I don't think so. But also depends on whether you're compiling a whole file or not.
2021-01-28T17:45:35Z jackdaniel: my point is that it would be better if you first figure out what you are wondering about and then try to ask a precise question; that gives you a better chance of learning something
2021-01-28T17:45:35Z Wezl: amerlyq: https://ideone.com/ICi95g
2021-01-28T17:46:06Z Wezl: apparently a will change
2021-01-28T17:46:34Z jackdaniel: whether a changes between calls or not depends on the inlining policy
2021-01-28T17:46:43Z OlCe: amerlyq: If A is defined in the same file as F, and compiled at once (COMPILE-FILE),
2021-01-28T17:46:49Z jackdaniel: it may be explicitly expressed with declarations if that matters
2021-01-28T17:47:04Z amerlyq: Wezl: it's about concurrent execution and form replacement, not sequential
2021-01-28T17:47:09Z jackdaniel: i.e (declare (notinline foo))
2021-01-28T17:47:28Z OlCe: amerlyq: then the second (A) could refer to the top-level definition of A, as well as the first.
2021-01-28T17:47:30Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:47:35Z Wezl: oh sorry for my ignorance
2021-01-28T17:47:54Z OlCe: amerlyq: This is specified as being implementation-defined by the standard.
2021-01-28T17:48:25Z OlCe: amerlyq: Regardless of whether (A) was declared inlined or not.
2021-01-28T17:48:57Z jackdaniel: OlCe: could you show the part of the standard which says that?
2021-01-28T17:49:01Z OlCe: amerlyq: Then, if (A) is declared inlined, second call to A will be same as the first.
2021-01-28T17:49:14Z OlCe: If you declare notinline, they will be different.
2021-01-28T17:49:31Z OlCe: And if you don't declare anything, and are not in the COMPILE-FILE case, then it's up to the implementation.
2021-01-28T17:49:50Z paulj` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:49:51Z OlCe: jackdaniel: Sure. Give me a moment.
2021-01-28T17:49:59Z amerlyq: jackdaniel: so, I know, that (f) is executed in one thread, and we try to replace (a) from another thread. Current instruction pointer is at (b), so (a) was executed once already, and whole (f) is already on stack and captured pointer to environment, so further replacement of (a) must not have effect on current execution of rest of (f). But is it true?
2021-01-28T17:50:16Z jackdaniel: OlCe: thanks, that part about "regardless of whether (A) was declared inlined or not"
2021-01-28T17:50:50Z Jesin joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:50:54Z jackdaniel: amerlyq: common lisp standard does not talk about multithreading, so you are already in the unspecified territory
2021-01-28T17:51:04Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T17:51:32Z OlCe: jackdaniel: It's in 3.2.2.3. But I recalled incorrectly it seems...
2021-01-28T17:51:59Z OlCe: jackdaniel: "A call within a file to a named function that is defined in the same file refers to that function, unless that function has been declared notinline. The consequences are unspecified if functions are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file."
2021-01-28T17:52:31Z JohnMS is now known as JohnMS_AWAY
2021-01-28T17:52:36Z jackdaniel: and whether environment capture, I don't think that there is such term in common lisp either - I doubt that environment is stack-allocated in case of global functions
2021-01-28T17:52:55Z OlCe: jackdaniel: So NOTINLINE blocks this behavior. And there is no real guarantee if there are runtime redefinitions.
2021-01-28T17:53:28Z jackdaniel: ah, that's what you've meant. I thought that you speak that inline/notinline declarations are ignored
2021-01-28T17:53:56Z amerlyq: OlCe: if "second (A) could refer to top-level" after compile time -- does it mean all symbols were resolved in compile time?
2021-01-28T17:54:57Z OlCe: jackdaniel: Although I would bet that, in practice, (F) calls the initial version of (A) in this case. But again, no guarantees about stable behavior.
2021-01-28T17:55:00Z OlCe: amerlyq: Yes.
2021-01-28T17:55:22Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:56:07Z OlCe: jackdaniel: Yes, I meant, whether there is an INLINE declaration or not (but not including the NOTINLINE case).
2021-01-28T17:57:28Z OlCe: Although it's not very clear, I interpret that an INLINE declaration on A would still give undefined behavior when using COMPILE-FILE.
2021-01-28T17:58:09Z amerlyq: Hm, ok. So we may expect CL still using old (A) until (f) ends. But it's not guaranteed :D
2021-01-28T17:58:15Z OlCe: In other words, I think that "The consequences are unspecified if functions are redefined individually at run time or multiply defined in the same file." also applies when A is declared INLINE. But that's debatable I guess.
2021-01-28T17:58:49Z OlCe: amerlyq: Yes, it seems. But, on the contrary, if you use NOTINLINE, then you know the new A will be used for the second call.
2021-01-28T17:58:54Z Bike: the compile-file restrictions are basically to allow the compiler to know things about functions in the same file so it can run analyses and possibly make calls simpler. it's left vague so that the compiler can choose not to do that.
2021-01-28T17:59:06Z OlCe: Bike: Exactly.
2021-01-28T17:59:07Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T17:59:54Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T18:01:12Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T18:01:27Z OlCe: amerlyq: All-in-all, it would be much better to avoid this kind of manipulation altogether...
2021-01-28T18:01:47Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-28T18:02:06Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-28T18:02:35Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T18:03:04Z amerlyq: OlCe: but isn't it exactly what I get if I run event loop in some program AND edit it in emacs at the same time? So... otherwise I must deinitialize whole program to clear stacks, to avoid this problem.
2021-01-28T18:03:54Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T18:04:00Z JohnMS_AWAY is now known as JohnMS
2021-01-28T18:04:51Z amerlyq: Or do you really -stop- program each time you wish to evaluate something?
2021-01-28T18:05:38Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T18:05:55Z nij left #lisp
2021-01-28T18:06:02Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T18:08:19Z phoe: what do you mean, "stop" program?
2021-01-28T18:08:29Z phoe: you mean a thread? all threads?
2021-01-28T18:08:53Z amerlyq: basically, deinit every allocated state on each stack of each thread
2021-01-28T18:09:35Z phoe: this depends on how the implementation refers to a function
2021-01-28T18:09:53Z amerlyq: Hm, please elaborate
2021-01-28T18:10:20Z amerlyq: In example above (defun f () (a) (b) (a)) I expect (f) refers to (a) by symbol name
2021-01-28T18:10:49Z amerlyq: So on one hand it must resolve (a) to last evaluated implementation
2021-01-28T18:10:58Z Bike: if you want a redefinition of A to affect a loop in another thread, you can declare A notinline and it will probably work.
2021-01-28T18:10:59Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2258#2258
2021-01-28T18:11:00Z JohnMS quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-28T18:11:26Z phoe: I assume it will work the same if you compile the whole file instead of going full REPL
2021-01-28T18:12:16Z amerlyq: phoe: sorry, some more context from above: we replace (a) from another thread, when (f) is currently running on stack (and evaluating (b) at the moment) directly before 2nd (a)
2021-01-28T18:12:22Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-28T18:12:31Z phoe: that's the same stuff though
2021-01-28T18:12:42Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T18:12:44Z phoe: B can execute (sleep 60) and then we have another thread to replace A
2021-01-28T18:12:49Z phoe: one second...
2021-01-28T18:13:29Z amerlyq: what you wrote in listing -- is replacing (a) from the same thread (i.e. environment), so of course (a) in this case will be redefined
2021-01-28T18:14:04Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2259#2259
2021-01-28T18:14:20Z amerlyq: but I seen somewhere explanation about each thread stack stores pointers to environment to allow executing previous versions of functions when stack is unwinded
2021-01-28T18:14:37Z pfdietz40 quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-28T18:14:47Z phoe: that must not always be the case, because my SBCL does not behave this way
2021-01-28T18:14:58Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-28T18:15:02Z phoe: again, this is implementation-dependent territory
2021-01-28T18:15:24Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T18:15:27Z phoe: but I do wonder if this behaves any other way on any other implementation under default optimization settings
2021-01-28T18:15:37Z phoe: and without any inline or notinline proclaimed
2021-01-28T18:15:53Z amerlyq: hm, convincing example for sbcl at least, thanks.
2021-01-28T18:16:56Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-28T18:17:05Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T18:17:16Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-28T18:18:19Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2260#2260
2021-01-28T18:18:22Z phoe: CCL does the same thing
2021-01-28T18:18:24Z amerlyq: But it means if I use resources (defun f () (unwind-protect (init-A) ... (deinit-A)) I still can't replace deinit-A until (f) is completed, or I will have bug
2021-01-28T18:18:39Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T18:18:48Z phoe: are you sure?
2021-01-28T18:18:56Z amerlyq: But you demonstrated it?
2021-01-28T18:19:05Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-28T18:19:15Z amerlyq: "can't replace" -- I'm not allowed to, I meant
2021-01-28T18:20:03Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2261#2261
2021-01-28T18:20:05Z nwoob left #lisp
2021-01-28T18:20:12Z phoe: why are you not allowed to?
2021-01-28T18:21:32Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T18:22:15Z amerlyq: In my workflow I have both (init-A) and (deinit-A) together in file. I edit them symmetrically when needed and reload. But if event loop in another thread already called previous version of (init-A), then after ending event processing it will call new (deinit-A), which is wrong.
2021-01-28T18:22:35Z phantomics quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
2021-01-28T18:22:59Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T18:23:11Z phoe: did you proclaim deinit-a notinline?
2021-01-28T18:23:23Z amerlyq: nope
2021-01-28T18:23:34Z phoe: try doing that and recompile
2021-01-28T18:24:16Z Bike: if i understand amerlyq's problem correctly, it's that deinit-a is being redefined AFTER init-a is called but BEFORE deinit-a is called, and the new deinit-a is inappropriate for undoing the consequences of init-a.
2021-01-28T18:24:24Z Alfr: amerlyq, do you actually expect it to call the old version? That's just sick.
2021-01-28T18:24:42Z phoe: Bike: oooh. That's a whole another problem.
2021-01-28T18:24:46Z Bike: so actually in this instance, amerlyq wants the old deinit-a.
2021-01-28T18:25:04Z Bike: yes. i think this requires more synchronization than an implementation could provide without some input.
2021-01-28T18:25:23Z Bike: how is it supposed to know that init-a and deinit-a work like this?
2021-01-28T18:25:33Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-28T18:25:58Z phoe: I know that Erlang has this sort of modularity in place, it supports live-reloading module by module, and a module contains multiple functions at the same time
2021-01-28T18:26:09Z phoe: but Lisp has no such primitives
2021-01-28T18:26:47Z Wezl left #lisp
2021-01-28T18:26:56Z amerlyq: I was able to found where I read mention about "multiple environment model" https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/9q6bum/how_does_common_lisp_implement_hot_code_reloading/
2021-01-28T18:27:05Z charles`: phoe: ...yet!
2021-01-28T18:27:18Z amerlyq: >> Each stack frame has its own environment frame, which allows you to "go back in time" and evaluate code in the context of a particular stack frame
2021-01-28T18:27:38Z phoe: that's a different thing
2021-01-28T18:27:57Z phoe: eval-in-frame likely refers to dynamic context rather than an old version of the dynamic environment
2021-01-28T18:28:03Z phoe: uh I mean
2021-01-28T18:28:06Z phoe: eval-in-frame likely refers to dynamic context rather than an old version of the global environment
2021-01-28T18:28:56Z Bike: i think this question is overestimating sbcl
2021-01-28T18:29:08Z Bike: "It seems that in some way the LISP compiler updates also the call stack. " i don't think this is actually true.
2021-01-28T18:29:32Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2262#2262
2021-01-28T18:29:40Z phoe: this is one way to always call the old function
2021-01-28T18:30:22Z phoe: but it requires the calling code to be prepared for such redefinitions, and still doesn't have any synchronization so is prone to race conditions
2021-01-28T18:31:21Z amerlyq: yes, it quickly becomes rather noisy and ugly :(
2021-01-28T18:34:24Z Bike: i don't understand how you could accomplish both allowing threads to see redefinitions from other threads, and making sure they see all redefinitions in a module at once, with preemptive multitasking?
2021-01-28T18:34:32Z Bike: i mean, doing multiple redefinitions is probably not an atomic operation
2021-01-28T18:34:42Z Bike: i guess you could like check a flag before any function call, kind of thing
2021-01-28T18:34:50Z phoe: I mean, you theoretically could
2021-01-28T18:34:57Z phoe: you can atomically replace an environment with another one
2021-01-28T18:35:03Z phoe: but that's already SICL zone
2021-01-28T18:35:08Z phoe: with its multiple global environments and such
2021-01-28T18:35:15Z Bike: i guess that's the same kind of thing as tripping a flag.
2021-01-28T18:35:20Z phoe: yes
2021-01-28T18:37:34Z amerlyq: if we combine init and deinit under single class, will instance use old or new deinit?
2021-01-28T18:38:01Z phoe: what do you mean, under single class
2021-01-28T18:38:04Z Bike: that is not how methods are organized in lisp. functions exist in themselves, they are not part of or under any class.
2021-01-28T18:38:15Z phoe: in Lisp methods belong to GFs, not to classes
2021-01-28T18:39:01Z Bike: now, if you had like, (init object) and (deinit object), the choice of what method to call is delayed until the actual call, so if you redefined deinit it could work.
2021-01-28T18:39:26Z amerlyq: So, instances call methods too by name, and not by pointer (in which case instance would have still old ptr)
2021-01-28T18:39:27Z amerlyq: ?
2021-01-28T18:39:52Z Bike: instances do not hold any reference to methods.
2021-01-28T18:40:00Z Bike: instances do not call anything.
2021-01-28T18:40:23Z amerlyq: so... no workaround
2021-01-28T18:41:31Z Bike: not particularly, no. generic functions work like any other function in this sense.
2021-01-28T18:41:45Z amerlyq: then, what is general workflow to mitigate such problems in your development? Do you really must reinit whole image when you with to replace some init-deinit pair?
2021-01-28T18:41:58Z amerlyq: *wish
2021-01-28T18:42:39Z Bike: I don't think I have ever run into this particular problem. If I did, I would probably stop the loop and redefine things, yes. If I really wanted to keep the process going I'd probably do something like what phoe wrote, maybe hidden by macros.
2021-01-28T18:44:40Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-28T18:47:56Z amerlyq: Bike: What about global state stored outside of loop? What if it still contains instances of old classes you changed? Will you try to transfer state somehow (assuming it was long to load/evaluate) or will ditch it too?
2021-01-28T18:48:42Z vegansbane69 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T18:48:53Z Bike: instances of classes that are redefined actually do get lazily updated to match the new definition.
2021-01-28T18:50:23Z OlCe: amerlyq: If you want to keep init-A and deinit-A in sync, a simpler way is to redefine the caller of them. It it's an event loop, then you should arrange for a way out of the loop after the caller's redefinition, and call again the caller.
2021-01-28T18:51:04Z OlCe: amerlyq: If not, you're going to have to hack the new version of deinit-A so that it runs the old code only if init-A has been called, which you may not be able to determine without a new version of init-A anyway.
2021-01-28T18:51:17Z OlCe: amerlyq: And I'm not even talking about multi-thread synchro here.
2021-01-28T18:51:26Z phoe: you could, in theory, grab the old fdefinitions though
2021-01-28T18:51:26Z amerlyq: Bike: Hm. Lazy update... (defclass Pt (x y)) -> (defclass Pt (a b)). After dropping x,y -- who will init values a,b , if their init was before the loop -- and therefore never called again?
2021-01-28T18:51:31Z phoe: and close the new fdefinitions over the old ones.
2021-01-28T18:51:55Z phoe: and conditionally call the new or old one
2021-01-28T18:52:30Z amerlyq: OlCe: even if you redefine caller -- you still must redefine inidividual init/deinit -- and will still get inconsistency. Otherwise -- you must inline them for your approach to work
2021-01-28T18:52:54Z Bike: amerlyq: instances are updated at latest the next time you try to access one of their slots. so, if you then tried to access the A slot of a point, it would be updated, which means the value of the x slot would be dropped and the value of the A slot would be initialized from the initforms, and then the read of the a slot would complete and return that initialized value.
2021-01-28T18:54:11Z OlCe: amerlyq: Not necessarily, if your redefine the caller, you can substitute the calls to init-A' and deinit-A'.
2021-01-28T18:54:58Z amerlyq: OlCe: hm, manual versioning of functions... what a mess :D))
2021-01-28T18:56:19Z amerlyq: Bike: and so, "A" slot will contain "default value" instead of expected values from "init" accompanying the "Pt" class. In demo of particles it will look like abrupt jump of all points to the (0,0) in the moment of reload.
2021-01-28T18:56:21Z OlCe: amerlyq: Yes. But even for that you can do better.
2021-01-28T18:56:36Z OlCe: amerlyq: You can use instead dynamic vars and funcall.
2021-01-28T18:57:08Z OlCe: This way you just change the bindings to call the new versions of init-A and deinit-A in the new version only.
2021-01-28T18:57:20Z Bike: amerlyq: the instance updater doesn't know anything about your "init" function, no. You can however actually customize the updater to call your init method or whatever.
2021-01-28T18:58:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T18:59:53Z amerlyq: OlCe: thanks for the idea, batch-renaming functions by adding incremental sfx will allow somewhat atomic dirty replacement (still GC is crying).
2021-01-28T19:00:29Z amerlyq: dynvars and funcall looks like the way -- not "generic", but at least for some functions which I replace the most often.
2021-01-28T19:01:30Z condemnedferret joined #lisp
2021-01-28T19:02:00Z amerlyq: Bike: I read above as "don't rely on lazy init and better manually reinitialize everything, however long it takes"
2021-01-28T19:03:19Z Bike: does changing the lazy init to do whatever you want not work?
2021-01-28T19:04:10Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T19:04:27Z sauvin__ is now known as Sauvin
2021-01-28T19:08:17Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T19:08:28Z amerlyq: again example with particles simulation -- generally you expect to have some initial distribution -- so you have generator which creates batch of points with specific (x,y) based on its parameters. If you wrap this generator to generate single i-th point and provide it to lazy init -- you will "hardcode" generator parameters
2021-01-28T19:09:21Z ciaranb joined #lisp
2021-01-28T19:09:21Z amerlyq: Bike: so its not impossible, but complexity grows like mushrooms after the rain
2021-01-28T19:09:37Z Bike: Maybe I wasn't clear. The updater can look at the instance pre-update. You could for example assign A to have the old X value and B to have the old Y value.
2021-01-28T19:09:52Z Bike: But you were phrasing things in terms of an (init) call so I thought that was what you wanted.
2021-01-28T19:13:21Z Alfr: amerlyq, you could make your init-a return a corresponding deinit-a which the user of init-a shall call later.
2021-01-28T19:13:34Z amerlyq: Slightly convoluted example (I know): changing Pt(x,y) -> Pt(a,b) may signify you worked with geometric plane and wish to try working with phase plane (s,v) now (and still keep all previous program state). In this case there is no direct conversion (x,y) -> (a,b) and you must get new (a,b) values somewhere. Still let's stop, I know I must simply create PPt class instead :)
2021-01-28T19:13:55Z amerlyq: Alfr: Oh, nice next step of the idea
2021-01-28T19:15:41Z Bike: i kind of want to know how this is supposed to work. i mean if there's no correspondence between the old and new points, what does "updating" even mean?
2021-01-28T19:15:53Z Alfr: amerlyq, but I'm unsure how nice it plays along w/ unwind-protect.
2021-01-28T19:16:12Z Bike: i don't think that would pose a problem for unwind-protect
2021-01-28T19:16:51Z Bike: I guess you could do something like call a function that returns both an initializer and deinitializer, then calls the initializer, then does whatever work, then calls the deinitializer. and then wrap it in a macro so you just write (with-a ... do work ...)
2021-01-28T19:17:26Z Alfr: Bike, ah ... a third function does the trick. :)
2021-01-28T19:19:13Z cage__ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T19:19:27Z cage__ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T19:20:06Z cage__ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-28T19:21:54Z Sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T19:22:07Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-28T19:26:46Z lithp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T19:28:44Z amerlyq: Bike: I had a mess of example, sorry. Emphasis was, that when you -add- new field -- it's often dependent on smth outside instance, so you can't lazy-init to generate proper value for that field
2021-01-28T19:29:21Z Bike: sure. in that case you'd probably have to do something more global, yeah. which i guess would involve pausing.
2021-01-28T19:31:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T19:32:07Z vegansbane69 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T19:33:02Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-28T19:33:19Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-28T19:34:05Z wsinatra_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T19:40:47Z ft joined #lisp
2021-01-28T19:42:27Z condemnedferret quit (Quit: Quit)
2021-01-28T19:43:16Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T19:45:49Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T19:45:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T19:46:34Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T19:46:58Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T19:47:07Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T19:48:36Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T19:49:51Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-28T19:50:21Z amerlyq quit (Quit: amerlyq)
2021-01-28T19:51:38Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T20:02:05Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T20:02:12Z frodef`` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T20:13:13Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-28T20:19:30Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T20:24:28Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T20:25:21Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-28T20:26:23Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T20:27:04Z elflng quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-28T20:27:06Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T20:28:13Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T20:31:49Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T20:33:38Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T20:37:22Z phoe: OK, #lisp, I have a fairly important question
2021-01-28T20:37:46Z Xach: with a preface like that
2021-01-28T20:38:00Z phoe: What sorts of fixes, corrections, revisions, additions, tricks, recipes, informations, would you like to see in the second edition of Common Lisp Recipes?
2021-01-28T20:38:39Z phoe: that's a long-term question, so answers don't need to come today or even this month
2021-01-28T20:39:33Z Xach: i preordered Common Lisp Recipes in 2015. between my preorder and the actual release, i moved to a new place. the book was delivered to my old house. the new owners kept it! i have never read it!
2021-01-28T20:39:48Z Xach: i will have to read it before i can comment, sorry
2021-01-28T20:39:55Z phoe: please do!
2021-01-28T20:39:59Z mfiano: Who's asking, you or Edi?
2021-01-28T20:40:03Z phoe: mfiano: me
2021-01-28T20:40:06Z Lycurgus: are there two?
2021-01-28T20:40:13Z phoe: Lycurgus: wait, what two?
2021-01-28T20:40:27Z Lycurgus: edi weitz's and somebody else's?
2021-01-28T20:40:39Z phoe: huh? there's only Edi's CLR, first edition
2021-01-28T20:40:45Z phoe: but there might be a second one.
2021-01-28T20:41:04Z Lycurgus: ah, OK, I implied that since you were asking you were the author
2021-01-28T20:41:08Z mfiano: There is one thing lacking from every CL book that I'd like to see.
2021-01-28T20:41:18Z phoe: nope, I'm not the author - but I might be involved in the second edition
2021-01-28T20:41:20Z phoe: hence my question
2021-01-28T20:41:25Z Lycurgus: i c
2021-01-28T20:41:27Z phoe: mfiano: what is it?
2021-01-28T20:41:52Z mfiano: A recipe for getting set up with a proper environment so we can direct people insisting on MS Notepad without SLIME/Sly over to it.
2021-01-28T20:41:59Z phoe: yes
2021-01-28T20:42:37Z phoe: I will certainly want to have a whole initial section dedicated to emacs, vim, sublime, atom, and vscode along with their respective Lisp environments
2021-01-28T20:42:50Z phoe: because this stuff is *absolutely* important in my opinion
2021-01-28T20:44:11Z _death: I couldn't bear to finish CLR.. every page had footnotes, which are not useful when reading front to back, and my compulsion forces me to read them.. too painful
2021-01-28T20:46:16Z scymtym_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T20:46:21Z _death: but it seems Xach has devised a new method of bringing people into CL
2021-01-28T20:47:48Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T20:53:00Z phoe: hm?
2021-01-28T20:55:19Z _death: move fast and preorder things
2021-01-28T20:55:30Z phoe: ...
2021-01-28T20:55:30Z phoe: Yes
2021-01-28T20:55:57Z Xach: this technique works especially well when ordering used books that ship very slowly
2021-01-28T21:03:36Z elflng joined #lisp
2021-01-28T21:05:18Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-28T21:07:16Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T21:08:47Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-28T21:12:01Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T21:12:28Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-28T21:14:53Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T21:16:48Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-28T21:23:49Z ciaranb quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-28T21:26:28Z enzuru joined #lisp
2021-01-28T21:27:33Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T21:28:37Z jerme_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T21:28:38Z banjiewen__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T21:29:20Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-28T21:29:57Z jerme_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T21:30:18Z banjiewen__ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T21:33:02Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-28T21:37:13Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T21:37:56Z phantomics joined #lisp
2021-01-28T21:38:00Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-28T21:40:49Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T21:44:51Z caret quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T21:46:07Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T21:46:14Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T21:48:40Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:05:05Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:05:10Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:12:58Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-28T22:16:40Z vegansbane69 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T22:20:32Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:22:04Z ikrabbe joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:22:47Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-28T22:28:06Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:28:42Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T22:29:33Z secretmyth joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:32:16Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T22:36:28Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:37:51Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-28T22:38:53Z stux|RC quit (Quit: Aloha!)
2021-01-28T22:39:35Z secretmyth quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T22:39:35Z stux|RC joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:41:45Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:42:36Z frodef`` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T22:42:55Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28T22:45:45Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-28T22:47:54Z vegansbane69 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:49:13Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:50:38Z torbo joined #lisp
2021-01-28T22:55:00Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:03:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T23:03:52Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:06:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T23:08:09Z zaxo joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:08:38Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:12:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T23:13:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:13:26Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:14:30Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-28T23:14:43Z jackdani1l joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:14:48Z jackdaniel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:18:06Z hvxgr joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:20:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T23:20:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:22:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T23:23:38Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:24:42Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:25:50Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:25:52Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:28:13Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:29:46Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:29:46Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T23:30:19Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:30:34Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-28T23:30:51Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T23:30:55Z aindilis` joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:31:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T23:31:14Z dim quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net)
2021-01-28T23:31:25Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:32:32Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-28T23:32:38Z dim joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:33:25Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:33:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T23:33:52Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:34:13Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:34:14Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:35:21Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:36:13Z theruran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:36:23Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:36:37Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T23:36:38Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:36:38Z selwyn quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:37:10Z selwyn joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:37:25Z theruran joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:37:33Z mpontillo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:37:44Z jmercouris joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:37:45Z mpontillo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:37:52Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:38:17Z gendl joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:38:33Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:40:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T23:41:13Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:45:56Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-28T23:45:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T23:46:57Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:48:48Z Codaraxis joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:53:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-28T23:54:05Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-28T23:57:30Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:01:44Z nrh^ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:02:25Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:05:32Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:05:34Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:07:13Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:15:09Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:15:40Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:17:11Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:18:36Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:18:37Z specbot quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T00:18:42Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:18:42Z cg505 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:18:58Z specbot joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:19:05Z minion quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:19:32Z rixard_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:19:40Z xanderle_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-29T00:19:42Z minion joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:19:43Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:19:44Z jfb4_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:19:44Z idxu_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:19:45Z idxu quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:19:51Z cg505 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:19:55Z copec joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:20:05Z rixard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:20:17Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:20:17Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:20:25Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:20:25Z jfb4 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:20:27Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:20:46Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:20:46Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:20:52Z idxu_ is now known as idxu
2021-01-29T00:21:15Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:21:25Z micro quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:22:01Z Oddity- joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:22:14Z ft joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:22:32Z micro joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:23:42Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:23:53Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:25:13Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:25:19Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:25:54Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:25:58Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:28:54Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:29:20Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:30:02Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:30:29Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:31:37Z ptrkriz joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:37:49Z CrazyEddy quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T00:39:57Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:42:17Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:42:28Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:45:03Z vegansbane696 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:46:52Z pankajsg quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T00:46:52Z micro quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:46:57Z micro joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:47:24Z jackdani1l quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:47:24Z vegansbane69 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:47:31Z jackdaniel joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:47:45Z pankajsg joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:52:56Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:53:30Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:54:13Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:54:14Z rme joined #lisp
2021-01-29T00:55:13Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T00:59:55Z KREYREN joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:00:08Z KREYREN: proposing crablang to be more lisp-y -> Need example of a built-in variable
2021-01-29T01:01:38Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-29T01:02:04Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-29T01:02:08Z Gnuxie[m]: What
2021-01-29T01:02:10Z charles`: KREYREN: You mean you want en example of a variable that is built into lisp?
2021-01-29T01:02:29Z KREYREN: confused lisp with elisp my baaad!
2021-01-29T01:02:29Z charles`: Gnuxie[m]: I think crablang = rust
2021-01-29T01:02:34Z KREYREN: charles`, yep
2021-01-29T01:02:40Z KREYREN: (not the game the language)
2021-01-29T01:04:45Z no-defun-allowed joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:05:16Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:07:32Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:08:32Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:09:02Z Gnuxie[m]: Rust cannot be made lispy, mostly its investors are not interested in interactivity, but this isn't what you want to hear
2021-01-29T01:10:56Z Gnuxie[m]: That's Ignoring everything that makes rust rust stands against what makes lisp lisp
2021-01-29T01:11:09Z renzhi quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:09Z jerme_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:09Z ecm quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:09Z jonas[m]2 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:09Z anotherone9999[m quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:09Z quanta[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:10Z loke[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:10Z infra_red[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:10Z santiagopim[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:10Z ThaEwat quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:10Z deselby quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:10Z dilated_dinosaur quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:10Z _paul0 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:10Z shenghi quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:11:10Z mgr_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T01:12:25Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z jerme_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z _paul0 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z shenghi joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:12:51Z mgr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:13:37Z lithp joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:13:49Z gjnoonan quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:26Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:27Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:42Z gjnoonan joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:14:46Z jonas[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:46Z anotherone9999[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:48Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:48Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:48Z santiagopim[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:48Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:49Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:50Z christopheroei[m quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:50Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:50Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:50Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:55Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:14:57Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:00Z Lolicon[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:00Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:03Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:21Z no-defun-allowed quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:24Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:27Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:31Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:31Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:31Z posthuman_egrego quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:31Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:31Z jdormit[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:31Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:37Z dnm quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:15:51Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:15:51Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:16:44Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:17:22Z skye0[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:17:24Z dnm joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:17:56Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:19:50Z theemacsshibe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:20:08Z theemacsshibe: According to the log, apparently my messages aren't coming through today.
2021-01-29T01:20:22Z theemacsshibe: So, what kind of "built-in variable" would make Rust any more like Lisp exactly?
2021-01-29T01:23:50Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:35:30Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:35:41Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:36:38Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:39:22Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:41:28Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:42:02Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T01:44:21Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T01:44:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:44:48Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:44:54Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:45:02Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:46:03Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:46:25Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:46:36Z no-defun-allowed joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:47:06Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:47:50Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:47:51Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:47:52Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:48:16Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:48:16Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:48:53Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:49:08Z zaxo quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-01-29T01:49:33Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:49:37Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:50:27Z ealfonso joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:50:39Z ealfonso: is there a way to clear a hash table?
2021-01-29T01:51:08Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:52:10Z akoana: (clrhash hash-table) ?
2021-01-29T01:52:17Z edgar-rft: clhs clrhash
2021-01-29T01:52:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_clrhas.htm
2021-01-29T01:53:41Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:53:53Z ealfonso: thanks
2021-01-29T01:57:22Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:57:37Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:58:09Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:58:15Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:58:17Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T01:59:04Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:02:39Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-29T02:02:56Z jonas[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:02:56Z Lolicon[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:03:04Z anotherone9999[m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:03:25Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:03:37Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:03:39Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:03:42Z dieggsy quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:03:56Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:03:57Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:05Z deselby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:05Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:05Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:05Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:12Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:12Z no-defun-allowed quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:12Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:14Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:14Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:14Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:14Z santiagopim[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:14Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:25Z ThaEwat quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:25Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:28Z posthuman_egrego quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:28Z christopheroei[m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:28Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:04:49Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:06:01Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:06:32Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:06:43Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-29T02:08:15Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:08:34Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:09:10Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:14:30Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T02:18:58Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:20:02Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-29T02:20:05Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-29T02:21:43Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-29T02:26:03Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:26:27Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:26:38Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:28:00Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:28:35Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:29:15Z skye0[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:31:53Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:31:59Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:32:46Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:33:12Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:33:30Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:33:30Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:33:34Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:33:59Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:35:38Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:35:42Z no-defun-allowed joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:35:43Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:36:30Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:36:32Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:37:13Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:37:22Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:37:27Z no-defun-allowed: Are we back then?
2021-01-29T02:37:44Z theemacsshibe: no-defun-allowed: No, I can't see your message.
2021-01-29T02:37:59Z no-defun-allowed: Sure ya can't.
2021-01-29T02:38:02Z theemacsshibe quit (Quit: She got me there...)
2021-01-29T02:41:37Z aeth: The Matrix Reloaded?
2021-01-29T02:42:19Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:43:50Z logand` joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:46:21Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:47:45Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:48:08Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T02:49:25Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:49:36Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:49:46Z mrcom quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-29T02:50:07Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:50:31Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:52:25Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T02:59:33Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:00:31Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-29T03:00:33Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:03:28Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:04:38Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:06:17Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:06:32Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:06:55Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:07:14Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:11:19Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-29T03:14:43Z Stanley00 quit
2021-01-29T03:15:32Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T03:15:38Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:17:20Z zyz_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:19:39Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:22:40Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:23:26Z dbotton quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-29T03:23:45Z tgbugs joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:23:53Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:24:03Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-29T03:24:33Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:24:33Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-29T03:24:33Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:25:15Z lithp quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:27:37Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:30:28Z mseddon7 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:30:39Z seisatsu_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:30:58Z edgar-xyz joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:30:59Z kingcons_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:31:18Z Oladon1 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:31:36Z mjl_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:31:36Z jrm2 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:31:43Z Grue` joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:31:54Z Mandus_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:31:56Z mtd__ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:33:04Z myall_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:33:46Z snits_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:33:56Z tgbugs_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:34:15Z kbtr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:34:23Z yCrazyEdd joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:34:23Z cgay_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:34:29Z n3t_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:34:38Z v3ga_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:35:01Z White__Flame joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:38:50Z tgbugs quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:50Z amb007 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:50Z CrazyEddy quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:50Z vegansbane696 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:50Z v3ga quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:50Z entel quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:50Z mjl quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z hiroaki quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z n3t quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z jrm quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z snits quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z edgar-rft quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z mtd_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z jurov quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z herlocksholmes quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z justinmcp quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z cgay quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z Mandus quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z joast quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z Oladon quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z Grue`` quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z Ekho quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z myall quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z tychoish quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z seisatsu quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z MrFantastik quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z kbtr quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z hiredman quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z White_Flame quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z sukaeto quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z kingcons quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z mseddon quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy
2021-01-29T03:38:51Z mseddon7 is now known as mseddon
2021-01-29T03:38:55Z mjl_ is now known as mjl
2021-01-29T03:39:10Z jrm2 is now known as jrm
2021-01-29T03:39:18Z tychoish- joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:39:19Z tychoish- is now known as tychoish
2021-01-29T03:39:24Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:39:41Z tgbugs_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:39:44Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:39:52Z zyz__ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:39:57Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:39:59Z vegansbane696 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:40:18Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:40:18Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:40:22Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:41:13Z lukego quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:41:55Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:42:33Z zyz_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:42:52Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:43:30Z jurov joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:43:30Z herlocksholmes joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:43:30Z justinmcp joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:43:30Z hiredman joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:43:30Z sukaeto joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:43:39Z lukego joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:43:41Z jurov quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-29T03:43:48Z sz0 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:44:00Z jurov joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:44:04Z cyraxjoe quit (Quit: I'm out!)
2021-01-29T03:44:35Z Ekho- joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:45:17Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:45:22Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:45:38Z entel joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:46:02Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:46:04Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:47:00Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:47:41Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:47:56Z thecoffemaker quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T03:49:22Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:51:19Z tgbugs joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:53:36Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:54:03Z ealfonso quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T03:54:55Z ikrabbe|2 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T03:55:45Z Ekho- is now known as Ekho
2021-01-29T03:55:58Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T04:02:22Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T04:04:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-29T04:04:42Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T04:05:17Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T04:06:29Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T04:09:58Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-29T04:11:11Z dbotton: How does one add an additional directory to asdf for searching?
2021-01-29T04:14:47Z thecoffemaker quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T04:15:36Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T04:17:09Z beach: I put a symbolic link in quicklisp/local-projects/
2021-01-29T04:20:44Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-29T04:20:54Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T04:20:58Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-29T04:22:01Z pankajsg joined #lisp
2021-01-29T04:26:21Z dbotton: Thanks
2021-01-29T04:26:30Z pillton quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T04:28:33Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp
2021-01-29T04:29:32Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T04:29:46Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T04:30:15Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-29T04:30:46Z beach: You may have to run (ql:register-local-projects) once after that.
2021-01-29T04:49:39Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-29T04:49:44Z Bike quit (Quit: sleep)
2021-01-29T04:50:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: (asdf:initialize-configuration (:source-registry :inherit-configuration (:tree "/path/to/directory/"))) works too
2021-01-29T04:50:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, '(:source-registry ...)
2021-01-29T04:54:11Z mrchampion quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T04:58:20Z ikrabbe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T05:01:39Z ikrabbe|2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T05:01:39Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-29T05:03:49Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T05:03:51Z dbotton: How would I run a function in a package that doesn't exist at compile time
2021-01-29T05:04:14Z charles` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T05:04:33Z beach: Functions are not located in packages.  Symbols are.
2021-01-29T05:04:43Z dbotton: Yes I know sorry
2021-01-29T05:05:14Z beach: And you can't call a function that does not exist.
2021-01-29T05:05:18Z dbotton: I want to use a symbol and a package not created yet at compile time
2021-01-29T05:05:31Z dbotton: It will
2021-01-29T05:05:43Z dbotton: After the load of the source
2021-01-29T05:06:05Z no-defun-allowed: One solution is to do (funcall (find-symbol "NAME" "PACKAGE") ...) but I'd rather ask why you need to do that.
2021-01-29T05:06:07Z dbotton: But the package does not yet exist at time I compile the function
2021-01-29T05:06:41Z no-defun-allowed: Can you load the other files required beforehand, or at least the file defining the package?
2021-01-29T05:07:11Z dbotton: So I want to give a way for someone to load and run a tutorial file in my quicklisp project without needed to known where it is installed
2021-01-29T05:07:35Z dbotton: (run-tutorial 2)
2021-01-29T05:07:40Z no-defun-allowed: Then they should load your project code first.
2021-01-29T05:08:02Z dbotton: The tutorials are in a different package
2021-01-29T05:08:11Z dbotton: Created when you load them
2021-01-29T05:08:22Z dbotton: Clog vs clog-user
2021-01-29T05:08:29Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp
2021-01-29T05:08:34Z no-defun-allowed: One approach is to define another ASDF system for the tutorial, which depends-on your actual system, and have the user load that.
2021-01-29T05:08:56Z no-defun-allowed: So, (asdf:defsystem #:clog-user :depends-on (#:clog) ...) then the user types (ql:quickload :clog-user)
2021-01-29T05:09:32Z dbotton: Or I could just create the clog-user package
2021-01-29T05:12:08Z pillton joined #lisp
2021-01-29T05:13:38Z dbotton: That worked
2021-01-29T05:19:36Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T05:21:52Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-29T05:26:32Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-29T05:38:59Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T05:42:17Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-29T05:46:01Z jfb4_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T05:46:11Z jfb4 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T05:46:37Z micro quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T05:46:44Z micro joined #lisp
2021-01-29T05:56:55Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-29T05:58:53Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-29T06:03:16Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-29T06:05:04Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T06:05:47Z wxie joined #lisp
2021-01-29T06:20:42Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-29T06:21:41Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-29T06:23:45Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T06:25:29Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-29T06:29:54Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-29T06:34:44Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-29T06:37:05Z ccl-logbot joined #lisp
2021-01-29T06:37:05Z 
2021-01-29T06:37:05Z names: ccl-logbot iskander ebrasca zacts wxie andreyorst aeth micro jfb4 narimiran lowryder pillton thecoffemaker mrcom nicktick __jrjsmrtn__ toorevitimirp pankajsg luckless dbotton Stanley00 Alfr_ tgbugs Gnuxie[m] infra_red[m] cyraxjoe quanta[m] entel hiroaki solideogloria[m] Ekho jurov sz0 lukego sukaeto hiredman justinmcp herlocksholmes loke[m] vegansbane696 zyz__ amb007 tychoish White__Flame v3ga_ n3t_ cgay_ CrazyEddy kbtr_ snits_ myall_ mtd__ Mandus_ Grue`
2021-01-29T06:37:05Z names: mjl jrm Oladon1 kingcons_ edgar-xyz seisatsu_ mseddon christopheroei[m susam eymebolofscrumpe posthuman_egrego ey[m] ey[m]1 dmiles[m] galex-713 santiagopim[m] chipk[m] stargazesparkle logand` bjorkintosh anotherone9999[m Lolicon[m] jonas[m]2 ms[m] no-defun-allowed etimmons ThaEwat deselby kaisyu[m] dieggsy even4void[m] katco skye0[m] ecm MrtnDk[m] arichiardi[m] jdormit[m] orivej rumbler31 dnm gjnoonan mgr_ shenghi _paul0 dilated_dinosaur jerme_ KREYREN
2021-01-29T06:37:05Z names: rme jackdaniel ptrkriz ft Oddity- copec cg505 idxu xanderle minion rixard_ specbot nrh^ Codaraxis hnOsmium0001 gendl mpontillo_ jmercouris theruran selwyn aindilis dim igemnace hvxgr stux|RC phantomics banjiewen__ enzuru karlosz elflng scymtym_ waleee-cl anticrisis epony IPmonger drmeister jlpeters avicenna jonatack ggoes imode Anonymous_ gxt grobe0ba zaquest hendursaga terpri simplegauss sveit thonkpod kini Lord_of_Life borodust Fade ym_ fourier
2021-01-29T06:37:05Z names: totoro2022 iskander| nckx grfn jello_pudding gko notzmv [d] parisienne spacebat2 travv0 chewbranca billstclair X-Scale Colleen mgxm Xach matryoshka gigetoo sm2n jonathan| alandipert jdz lad madage Aurora_v_kosmose yottabyte bytesighs XachX vhost- j0nd0e physpi mikecheck buoy49 kilimanjaro griffinbyatt ffwacom stylewarning johs Balooga p_l jsatk conjunctive yonkunas sgithens alanz CEnnis91 gaze__ pent splittist mgsk rvirding Iolo hineios matijja frgo
2021-01-29T06:37:05Z names: hhdave datajerk jibanes flip214 Trieste dwts Tordek vert2 mathrick_ russell-- abbe_ ptr_0x0001 heredoc voidlily chrpape` cpape` lottaquestions nullman HiRE cods Lord_Nightmare sxmx dddddd emacsomancer DGASAU seeg1234 troydm perrier-jouet Posterdati madand phadthai leo_song johnjay _whitelogger kapil_ penguwin luis dvdmuckle cantstanya Krystof cross iamFIREcracker beach noko- ineiros TMA Firedancer_ ck_ terrorjack froggey easye deltab summerisle housel
2021-01-29T06:37:05Z names: Blukunfando Nikotiini azrazalea SAL9000 tessier APic wInNy astronavt ark tumdum vaporatorius xantoz mood_ khisanth_ nightfly swflint Kingsy jealousmonk amk gabiruh fitzsim jbgg loli moon-child theBlackDragon gum thijso brandonz SlashLife mr_yogurt vsync joga saturn2 zmagii srji Yardanico HDurer jasom samebchase flazh Ziemas jackhill ane slyrus1 luna_is_here fiddlerwoaroof mgsk_ madnificent tomaw fengshaun pyc eschatologist gabot mister_m walex nmg glamas
2021-01-29T06:37:05Z names: hdasch wooden greeb lieven opcode ramus nydel @fe[nl]ix Blkt acolarh dale Papa SumoSud0 ozzloy gingerale phoe beaky Inoperable FennecCode nullheroes norserob bmansurov_ nitrix wigust Demosthenex Cthulhux guaqua sbryant knobo cpt_nemo femi Patzy ilmu drot dxtr midre ioa nopf remexre larme greaser|q pranavats tmf lansiir xlei ravndal himmAllRight cognemo grumble lonjil me_at_drewc_ca docl plisp emma rotty Grauwolf spal mrSpec d4ryus natj212 malm gpiero
2021-01-29T06:37:05Z names: mfiano daniel1302 lavaflow cyberlard loke stux|RC-only xi markasoftware felideon kim\ xristos bonz060 shrysr shinohai krjst jxy eta ecraven diamondbond esotericalgo devrtz shoshin ski AdmiralBumbleBee samebchase- zagura mtd |3b| bkst jgkamat [df] eagleflo Patternmaster zigpaw10 pok MetaYan add^_ antoszka sebboh creat brass _death aap gensym interruptinuse ferada eMBee Ankhers trn Kabriel z0d zymurgy
2021-01-29T06:37:49Z iskander| quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T06:38:28Z edgar-xyz quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-29T06:39:49Z zyz__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T06:41:02Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T06:44:50Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-29T06:44:56Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-29T06:46:28Z BCMCCMMNX joined #lisp
2021-01-29T06:47:05Z v3ga_: 'night
2021-01-29T06:47:50Z v3ga_ is now known as v3ga
2021-01-29T06:48:06Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-29T06:50:48Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-29T06:50:48Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-29T06:50:48Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-29T06:52:24Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T06:57:04Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-29T06:59:57Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:00:02Z cyraxjoe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T07:00:43Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-29T07:00:45Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:00:45Z andreyorst` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T07:01:12Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:03:15Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T07:05:57Z andreyorst` joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:07:44Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T07:07:44Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:09:18Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:09:35Z saturn2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.0.1)
2021-01-29T07:09:58Z clone_of_saturn joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:10:02Z clone_of_saturn is now known as saturn2
2021-01-29T07:12:22Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:12:59Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:18:16Z stux|RC-only quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T07:18:36Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T07:21:44Z stux|RC-only joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:22:48Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:26:36Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T07:28:38Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:28:45Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-29T07:28:48Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-29T07:32:37Z White__Flame is now known as White_Flame
2021-01-29T07:41:21Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:42:44Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T07:43:09Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:48:01Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:48:47Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T07:49:56Z ikrabbe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:50:51Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-29T07:52:58Z phoe: heyyy
2021-01-29T07:53:04Z beach: Hello phoe.
2021-01-29T07:53:12Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe.
2021-01-29T07:56:48Z Cymew joined #lisp
2021-01-29T07:57:33Z edgar-rft feels dizzy with all that many ypsilons
2021-01-29T08:01:46Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:02:51Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:05:56Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:06:13Z logand` joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:11:44Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:14:20Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:14:38Z logand``` joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:17:15Z hjudt joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:18:17Z X-Scale` joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:19:39Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:19:39Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2021-01-29T08:20:46Z condemnedferret joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:21:45Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:22:10Z condemnedferret quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-29T08:22:24Z logand``` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:22:50Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:22:55Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:25:16Z condemnedferret joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:25:46Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:33:37Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T08:34:27Z lottaquestions_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:36:32Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:37:13Z ikrabbe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:38:15Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:39:11Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:39:35Z ikrabbe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:40:04Z condemnedferret quit (Quit: Quit)
2021-01-29T08:43:11Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:43:24Z condemnedferret joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:43:33Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:45:55Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:46:17Z lottaquestions joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:48:17Z ljavorsk joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:49:44Z condemnedferret quit (Quit: Quit)
2021-01-29T08:53:24Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:56:06Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:56:45Z Major_Biscuit joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:57:45Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T08:58:50Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T08:59:26Z slyrus2 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:00:19Z slyrus1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T09:00:25Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:05:03Z lottaquestions_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T09:05:31Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:07:54Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:08:36Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:09:44Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T09:09:51Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T09:11:07Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T09:11:15Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:12:21Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T09:14:21Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T09:14:23Z creat_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:14:59Z plisp quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T09:15:16Z plisp joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:15:37Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T09:15:59Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:20:41Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T09:23:20Z OlCe quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T09:24:18Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:27:27Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:28:50Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T09:31:25Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-29T09:33:04Z BCMCCMMNX left #lisp
2021-01-29T09:37:53Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-29T09:38:08Z tassleoff joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:41:55Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:42:46Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:46:32Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T09:51:58Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-29T09:53:28Z fanta1 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T10:07:22Z datajerk quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T10:10:29Z datajerk joined #lisp
2021-01-29T10:19:03Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-29T10:20:44Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T10:21:12Z JohnMS joined #lisp
2021-01-29T10:21:17Z JohnMS quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-29T10:21:43Z lotuseater quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T10:21:59Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-29T10:22:43Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T10:24:46Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T10:25:09Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T10:25:49Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T10:28:02Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-29T10:35:45Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-29T10:37:13Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T10:39:30Z n3t_ is now known as n3t
2021-01-29T10:39:57Z nrh^ quit
2021-01-29T10:41:24Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T10:49:23Z nwoob joined #lisp
2021-01-29T10:54:41Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T10:56:36Z igemnace quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T10:59:36Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T11:00:06Z vegansbane696 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-29T11:08:17Z OlCe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T11:09:49Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T11:20:03Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T11:21:59Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T11:26:25Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T11:28:09Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-29T11:28:56Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T11:29:58Z vegansbane696 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T11:31:01Z fanta1 quit (Quit: fanta1)
2021-01-29T11:35:17Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T11:35:26Z nwoob quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T11:36:51Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-29T11:39:44Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T11:39:45Z ark quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T11:40:44Z ark joined #lisp
2021-01-29T11:42:57Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-29T11:45:34Z jmercouris: hello everyone, I hope you have a good day
2021-01-29T11:48:55Z ck_: Hello jmercouris. We hope you have a good one as well.
2021-01-29T11:50:29Z phoe: yes
2021-01-29T11:52:04Z edgar-rft: is this the new hope channel?
2021-01-29T11:52:39Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-29T11:52:41Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T11:52:48Z edgar-rft: i mean something like this -> https://www.hopechannel.com/
2021-01-29T11:53:56Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-29T11:55:10Z jackdaniel: how about making minion greet everyone entering the channel with "good morning"? and if that person answers, add some meaningful quote, like a fortune file
2021-01-29T11:57:45Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T11:58:52Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:02:36Z X-Scale joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:03:38Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T12:10:36Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T12:11:26Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:13:53Z jmercouris: edgar-rft: it can be if you want it to be
2021-01-29T12:14:44Z edgar-rft: Let's all praise the gods of Lisp :-)
2021-01-29T12:14:44Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T12:15:12Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:16:24Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T12:19:00Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:19:23Z edgar-rft: One day I will rewrite the ANSI spec in Enoch style.
2021-01-29T12:23:38Z perceptron joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:23:46Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:33:51Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:37:10Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:37:30Z saganman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T12:37:55Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:40:22Z perceptron quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T12:40:40Z perceptron joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:41:36Z iamFIREcracker quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T12:42:19Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:44:09Z OlCe quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T12:45:04Z perceptron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T12:46:36Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T12:47:44Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:48:52Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T12:52:04Z Regenaxer joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:53:44Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T12:54:27Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T12:58:33Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:00:26Z anotherone9999[m quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:28Z ecm quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:28Z MrtnDk[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:30Z chrpape` quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:30Z voidlily quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:31Z heredoc quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:31Z ptr_0x0001 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:32Z abbe_ quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:32Z russell-- quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:34Z christopheroei[m quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:34Z susam quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:35Z Lolicon[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:36Z kaisyu[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:36Z dieggsy quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:36Z deselby quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:38Z gjnoonan quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:39Z imode quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:39Z jdz quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:39Z p_l quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:41Z housel quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:00:43Z noko- is now known as noko
2021-01-29T13:00:43Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:14Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:14Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:14Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:14Z chrpape` joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:14Z voidlily joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:14Z heredoc joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:14Z ptr_0x0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:14Z abbe_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:14Z russell-- joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:26Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:26Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:26Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:26Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:26Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:26Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:26Z gjnoonan joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:26Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:26Z jdz joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:26Z p_l joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:26Z housel joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:01:32Z dieggsy quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-29T13:01:32Z deselby quit (Max SendQ exceeded)
2021-01-29T13:02:20Z perceptron joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:02:52Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T13:02:59Z solideogloria[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:03:00Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:03:00Z posthuman_egrego quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:03:01Z chipk[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:03:02Z jonas[m]2 quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:03:02Z ms[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:03:03Z katco quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:03:03Z skye0[m] quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:03:05Z jonathan| quit (*.net *.split)
2021-01-29T13:03:11Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:03:15Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:03:26Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:03:26Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:03:26Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:03:34Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:03:42Z anotherone9999[m quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:03:42Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:03:49Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:03:49Z santiagopim[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:03:52Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:03:53Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:03:53Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:03:53Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:03:53Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:03:53Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:03:53Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:03:53Z skye0[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:03:53Z jonathan| joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:03:55Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:03:58Z Lolicon[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:04Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:05Z even4void[m] quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:08Z solideogloria[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:08Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:08Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:09Z jonas[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:09Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:09Z loke[m] quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:09Z skye0[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:20Z no-defun-allowed quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:22Z kingcons_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:26Z christopheroei[m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:27Z jdormit[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:31Z posthuman_egrego quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:32Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:33Z nij: Hello! I'm trying out this script, but couldn't (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.command)   https://github.com/informatimago/commands/blob/master/generate-commands.lisp#L26
2021-01-29T13:04:44Z ecm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:47Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-29T13:04:53Z quanta[m] quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:55Z ms[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:55Z susam quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:55Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:04:57Z nij: error: System "com.informatimago.command" not found
2021-01-29T13:05:18Z ThaEwat quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:05:23Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:05:25Z jackdaniel: afaik pjb's projects were removed from quicklisp
2021-01-29T13:05:27Z kingcons joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:05:44Z jackdaniel: you may need to download them yourself and put them i.e in ~/common-lisp/
2021-01-29T13:06:02Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:06:38Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:07:31Z bitmapper joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:08:52Z nij: @@ isn't that project the very project i'm running?
2021-01-29T13:09:32Z nij: in commands/sources there is indeed (asdf:defsystem "com.informatimago.command" [..]
2021-01-29T13:09:43Z jackdaniel: it is, but is it placed in someplace that could be found by asdf?
2021-01-29T13:09:43Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:09:47Z jackdaniel: i.e ~/common-lisp/
2021-01-29T13:10:09Z jackdaniel: also, did you download its dependencies (direct and indirect)?
2021-01-29T13:10:44Z perceptron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:10:47Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:10:57Z Regenaxer left #lisp
2021-01-29T13:12:01Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:13:02Z nij: hmm i have to check it out
2021-01-29T13:13:13Z nij: not too familiar yet. but that's a useful pointer. thanks :)
2021-01-29T13:14:05Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-01-29T13:14:08Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-29T13:20:05Z nij: How to get com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum? I searched in pjb's repo @@ but it doesn't seem that there's a def.
2021-01-29T13:20:20Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:21:21Z hjudt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:24:26Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:24:30Z ck_: nij: I don't know what you mean exactly, but the package definition is right there https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/-/blob/master/common-lisp/cesarum/package.lisp
2021-01-29T13:25:49Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:27:04Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:29:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T13:29:16Z varjag joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:29:30Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:31:50Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:31:54Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:31:55Z ey[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:32:00Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:32:29Z nij: ,ping
2021-01-29T13:33:08Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:35:44Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:35:53Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:35:57Z jonas[m]2 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:38:26Z rtypo joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:39:12Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-29T13:39:20Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:39:33Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:39:36Z ey[m]1 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:39:39Z no-defun-allowed joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:39:47Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:40:08Z nij: Indeed it's not in ql. Found that under /lisp. Sure.
2021-01-29T13:40:42Z nij: Next "cesarum graph" compilation fails without detailed info: https://bpa.st/YP6KE
2021-01-29T13:41:05Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:41:19Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:41:57Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:42:04Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:45:37Z phoe: check the REPL for errors.
2021-01-29T13:47:44Z eymebolofscrumpe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:07Z stargazesparkle quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:12Z santiagopim[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:13Z no-defun-allowed quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:15Z jonas[m]2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:25Z chipk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:26Z arichiardi[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:36Z Lolicon[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:36Z etimmons quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:38Z kaisyu[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:38Z dmiles[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:40Z ey[m] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:56Z ey[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:48:59Z infra_red[m] quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:51:01Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:52:42Z cosimone joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:54:55Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T13:55:15Z nij: nvm i'll come back again when i'm more advanced 😂😂😂
2021-01-29T13:55:52Z nij: at least i've progressed more comparing to a month ago..
2021-01-29T13:56:37Z beach: The debugging situation for free Common Lisp implementations and tools is not that great.
2021-01-29T13:56:51Z phoe: it's not about implementations
2021-01-29T13:56:51Z beach: But we are working on making it better.
2021-01-29T13:57:11Z phoe: it's about ASDF not showing the real error(s) and just going "file failed to compile but I won't tell you why"
2021-01-29T13:57:25Z beach: That's the "tools" part.
2021-01-29T13:57:50Z phoe: are we working on having ASDF show more information?
2021-01-29T13:58:24Z beach: Not directly no.  I am sorry of I gave that impression.
2021-01-29T13:58:33Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T13:58:41Z beach: s/of/if/
2021-01-29T13:59:03Z phoe: I guess maybe we could though
2021-01-29T13:59:07Z beach: That said, it would be a good project for improving ASDF.
2021-01-29T13:59:11Z phoe: yes
2021-01-29T13:59:11Z beach: Yes. :)
2021-01-29T13:59:27Z nij: nah one thing is definitely that i'm still newb
2021-01-29T13:59:39Z nij: i cannot understand the backtrace
2021-01-29T13:59:46Z phoe: the backtrace tells you nothing
2021-01-29T13:59:49Z phoe: not in this case
2021-01-29T13:59:55Z jackdaniel: asdf is being continously improved; maybe such suggestion should be made to rpgoldman?
2021-01-29T13:59:57Z phoe: check the REPL for the real errors.
2021-01-29T14:00:00Z nij: but yeah thanks to you folks i've definitely improved
2021-01-29T14:00:05Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, that sounds good
2021-01-29T14:00:27Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:00:46Z beach: I think it was lukego who said recently that the situation is much better now than a decade ago.
2021-01-29T14:00:57Z beach: Something like "things just work now".
2021-01-29T14:01:26Z _death: nij: at the point this error happens, you can try to compile-file the graph.lisp file yourself
2021-01-29T14:01:29Z jackdaniel: depends on the things I suppose
2021-01-29T14:01:40Z beach: I guess so, yes.
2021-01-29T14:02:44Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T14:03:33Z nij: _death: I do it again and the error changed
2021-01-29T14:03:36Z nij: dunno why..
2021-01-29T14:04:05Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:04:23Z nij: and i dunno what "compiling" here really means
2021-01-29T14:04:37Z _death: nij: I have a small patch to informatimago whose commit message is "made to compile and load", though I don't know if it's related to your issue
2021-01-29T14:04:52Z nij: when I (ql:quickload :something-great), does it got compiled only into the running repl? or the compiled file is put somewhere?
2021-01-29T14:05:05Z jackdaniel: it is cached in ~/.cache/common-lisp/
2021-01-29T14:05:08Z jackdaniel: at least on linux
2021-01-29T14:05:23Z jackdaniel: and if up-to-date fasl is found, then it is not compiled anew
2021-01-29T14:05:25Z _death: nij: https://gist.github.com/death/fc850088f845793709ca973b088a3455
2021-01-29T14:05:44Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:05:46Z jackdaniel: afaik it does compare modification dates of the source file to determine whether file needs compiling (and a dependency graph)
2021-01-29T14:06:03Z jackdaniel: modification date is not so great way of doing this, because of how reader works, i.e #+my-brilliant-feature
2021-01-29T14:06:11Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T14:06:31Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:07:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T14:07:27Z elflng joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:07:33Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:07:48Z _death: nij: with that patch, (ql:quickload "com.informatimago") is successful here
2021-01-29T14:08:05Z beach: jackdaniel: Never thought about that.  That's a very good point.
2021-01-29T14:08:23Z jackdaniel: thanks
2021-01-29T14:09:34Z Xach: this is a real problem in hunchentoot, which uses *features* to control SSL support
2021-01-29T14:09:36Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T14:09:46Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-29T14:10:21Z nij: _death: oh indeed @_@ .com.informatimago is compiled, successfully.
2021-01-29T14:11:12Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T14:11:34Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:12:36Z jackdaniel: "feature conditionals consider harmful for anything that is not intrinsic to the common lisp implementation" - anyone inspired - I waive rights to the article title :-)
2021-01-29T14:12:45Z jackdaniel: considered*
2021-01-29T14:13:13Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T14:13:21Z jackdaniel: and "articles 'considered harmful' considered harmful"
2021-01-29T14:13:34Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:13:43Z nij: now .com.informatimago works.. i'm trying .com.informatimago.command again
2021-01-29T14:13:50Z nij: error with backlog: https://bpa.st/BSCAQ
2021-01-29T14:13:54Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-29T14:14:02Z nij: source: https://github.com/informatimago/commands
2021-01-29T14:14:10Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T14:14:30Z nij: Re: phoe: the backtrace tells you nothing >> Then how do you folks debug @_@?
2021-01-29T14:14:32Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:14:42Z phoe: nij: in this case
2021-01-29T14:14:48Z jonas[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:14:52Z tassleoff quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T14:15:02Z jackdaniel: nij: backtraces of errors encountered when loading stuff without asdf are useless
2021-01-29T14:15:04Z phoe: this is one particular case when the backtrace tells you nothing because the compilation errors have already happened
2021-01-29T14:15:11Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T14:15:13Z phoe: for those, check the REPL output.
2021-01-29T14:15:17Z jackdaniel: it doesn't mean that all backtraces are useless - usually you go to the file that errors and compile it by hand
2021-01-29T14:15:17Z phoe: lemme take a screenshot so you can see it
2021-01-29T14:15:18Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:15:23Z jackdaniel: in slime i.e C-c C-
2021-01-29T14:15:34Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:15:40Z jackdaniel: loading stuff *with* asdf, not without
2021-01-29T14:16:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T14:16:32Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:16:51Z beach: jackdaniel: Krystof has an article about read-time conditionals, but the emphasis is a bit different.
2021-01-29T14:17:06Z phoe: nij: https://i.imgur.com/iv7nytq.png
2021-01-29T14:17:20Z phoe: see how the REPL has the real compiler error
2021-01-29T14:17:31Z jackdaniel: beach: I've read it a few years back, but I don't remember much of it
2021-01-29T14:18:00Z nij: OH
2021-01-29T14:18:03Z nij: phoe i see
2021-01-29T14:18:08Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:18:45Z lukego: beach: yeah the CL ecosystem is in amazing shape these days. I've actually been writing Lisp code all week without once pausing to deal with any bug or rough edge in any tool or dependency.
2021-01-29T14:18:54Z phoe: this is a place where could the condition report could possibly be improved.
2021-01-29T14:19:04Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:19:04Z nij: so for https://github.com/informatimago/commands/tree/master/sources , what i did is (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.command)
2021-01-29T14:19:11Z nij: the asd file loads script.lisp
2021-01-29T14:19:18Z nij: what should I do instead of this?
2021-01-29T14:19:26Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T14:19:28Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:19:33Z phoe: I assume that it could hijack *error-output* while compiling stuff, and use this information inside the error report mayhaps?
2021-01-29T14:19:55Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T14:20:05Z beach: lukego: I guess it is less spectacular when it happens gradually over several years.
2021-01-29T14:20:29Z lukego: aside: I'm experimenting with dumping Lisp application data structures into Blender for visualization at the moment. it's pretty fun. https://twitter.com/lukego/status/1355153534275231747. maybe headed towards having a two-way bridge where Blender can request more data from Lisp. Or maybe the novelty will wear off.
2021-01-29T14:20:49Z lukego remembers danb's classic rant on this subject...
2021-01-29T14:21:31Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:21:37Z lukego: that basically we should all be in awe every moment that we're able to run Lisp on an x86/ARM instead of a refurbish DEC Alpha :)
2021-01-29T14:21:57Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:23:42Z beach: phoe: Instead of that message in the REPL, there could have been a window with the source code and some colored arrow or something like that, pointing to the error.
2021-01-29T14:25:40Z jackdaniel: I have a weak recollection of asdf-slime integration which did exactly that (as when you call compile-file)
2021-01-29T14:25:48Z _death: when you C-c C-k you get red underlines.. there is also a slime-compilation window with the errors
2021-01-29T14:25:49Z jackdaniel: but it may be a fake recollection :)
2021-01-29T14:27:36Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T14:28:46Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:30:17Z phoe: beach: _death: hmmm
2021-01-29T14:30:26Z phoe: should it be possible to merge these two approaches?
2021-01-29T14:30:48Z phoe: when you get an ASDF compilation error while swank is hooked up, the buffer in question opens and the underlines appear
2021-01-29T14:30:49Z beach: _death: Yes, that's already better.
2021-01-29T14:30:58Z phoe: I'd totally like that
2021-01-29T14:32:07Z Xach: lukego: now it is very popular to emulate the dead hardware
2021-01-29T14:32:39Z lukego: yeah I guess in hindsight waiting a couple of decades until emulating a Symbolics would become performant might have been a lower effort strategy for lisp
2021-01-29T14:33:41Z nij: I believe I have furthur narrowed the issue: https://github.com/informatimago/commands/blob/master/sources/script.lisp#L343
2021-01-29T14:33:59Z nij: Tried to load that into my SLY, it complains that the function version isn't defined.
2021-01-29T14:34:20Z nij: Problem is.. I'm using sbcl, and not familiar with ccl.
2021-01-29T14:34:34Z _death: phoe: yes.. my first thought when looking at nij's compilation error was that asdf's compile-file-error condition should include a list of conditions it has encountered, but I've not thought about it much
2021-01-29T14:34:38Z nij: By default, pjb uses ccl (at least written in Makefile).
2021-01-29T14:34:58Z phoe: _death: this does sound like a very good idea though
2021-01-29T14:35:14Z phoe: more or less what I was thinking of; it can then report their reports and locations or something
2021-01-29T14:35:25Z beach: lukego: I am afraid an environment based on Symbolics would be very vulnerable to attacks from the net.  That wasn't much of an issue at the time.
2021-01-29T14:35:26Z phoe: or leave that to be inspected
2021-01-29T14:38:03Z christopheroei[m joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:03Z arichiardi[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:03Z ms[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:03Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z even4void[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z loke[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z posthuman_egrego joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z susam joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z dmiles[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z jdormit[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z ThaEwat joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z kaisyu[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z deselby joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z no-defun-allowed joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z skye0[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:04Z katco joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:05Z quanta[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:05Z stargazesparkle joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:05Z etimmons joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:05Z dieggsy joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:05Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:09Z ecm joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:09Z anotherone9999[m joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:10Z eymebolofscrumpe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:10Z solideogloria[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:11Z Lolicon[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:11Z chipk[m] joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:11Z 18WABNFN4 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:12Z 94KAABSF3 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:38:12Z nij: What does this mean? -- #-clisp (do-A) "\n" #+clisp (do-B)
2021-01-29T14:38:45Z beach: clhs #-
2021-01-29T14:38:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhr.htm
2021-01-29T14:38:49Z beach: clhs #+
2021-01-29T14:38:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
2021-01-29T14:39:17Z nij: Wh.. even this is in clhs =_= sorry for that. It's harder to search symbols in google.
2021-01-29T14:40:32Z phoe: ask specbot for help
2021-01-29T14:40:37Z phoe: you can query it in private, too
2021-01-29T14:41:10Z jackdaniel: nij: try l1sp.org
2021-01-29T14:41:23Z jackdaniel: (note, the second letter is a digit one, not a letter L)
2021-01-29T14:41:36Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1)
2021-01-29T14:41:56Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:42:43Z nij: jackdaniel: thanks..
2021-01-29T14:43:20Z Xach: p3rl.org had it so much easier
2021-01-29T14:43:21Z jackdaniel: all thanks belong to Xach who created it, I'm just leeching
2021-01-29T14:43:40Z Xach ponders p3r1.org
2021-01-29T14:44:03Z nij: lol
2021-01-29T14:44:47Z phoe: you mean 101?
2021-01-29T14:45:28Z nij: 101
2021-01-29T14:50:54Z rtypo quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-29T14:51:04Z _death: nij: if you're using sbcl, that #+clisp form should not be relevant.. you can check *features* to make sure it doesn't contain :clisp
2021-01-29T14:52:27Z nij: right CLISP not included in *features*
2021-01-29T14:53:26Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T14:54:05Z nij: But my SLY did try to run it: https://bpa.st/MYNRG
2021-01-29T14:55:03Z nij: The error occured in line 319 (https://github.com/informatimago/commands/blob/master/sources/script.lisp#L319), and in which only those lines under #+clisp have VERSION.
2021-01-29T14:55:34Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-29T14:55:45Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:56:03Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T14:56:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T14:57:02Z phoe: well, the question is
2021-01-29T14:57:06Z phoe: #+(or) #+#.(foo) 42
2021-01-29T14:57:17Z phoe: is this defined?
2021-01-29T14:57:17Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T14:57:34Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:00:24Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-29T15:00:45Z _death: clhs *read-suppress*
2021-01-29T15:00:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rd_sup.htm
2021-01-29T15:01:16Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T15:02:27Z phoe: "Dispatching macro characters continue to parse an infix numerical argument, and invoke the dispatch function."
2021-01-29T15:02:35Z phoe: so #. continues invoking EVAL
2021-01-29T15:02:52Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:02:52Z phoe: so :FOO is called, as it should be
2021-01-29T15:03:02Z phoe: so this code is buggy
2021-01-29T15:03:05Z phoe: that's my reasoning
2021-01-29T15:03:09Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T15:03:25Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:03:25Z nij: Maybe it's not supposed to be run with sbcl..
2021-01-29T15:03:45Z phoe: maybe wasn't tested on SBCL
2021-01-29T15:03:48Z nij: I couldn't find any ":USE" in this repo that magically import #'version either.
2021-01-29T15:05:17Z beach: phoe: I think scymtym had an analysis for that with respect to Eclector.
2021-01-29T15:05:26Z phoe: beach: oh! interesting
2021-01-29T15:05:50Z beach: For the online Lisp meeting, was it?
2021-01-29T15:06:00Z beach: I can't remember now.
2021-01-29T15:06:07Z phoe: I don't recall anything with regard to read-suppress... might be my poor memory
2021-01-29T15:07:09Z beach: Could be mine as well.
2021-01-29T15:07:11Z _death: I think the issue is that #+ "should" (not required by CL, apparently?) act differently when the form is skipped
2021-01-29T15:09:15Z joast joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:10:51Z _death: #+(or) [now *read-suppress* is bound to true] #+ [sbcl rebinds *read-suppress* to nil] #.(foo) [oops] [most recent binding is undone] 42
2021-01-29T15:11:00Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:11:23Z phoe: _death: it rebinds *read-suppress*?
2021-01-29T15:11:32Z phoe: clhs #+
2021-01-29T15:11:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm
2021-01-29T15:12:15Z _death: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/sharpm.lisp#L393
2021-01-29T15:12:15Z phoe: hm
2021-01-29T15:12:19Z phoe: yes
2021-01-29T15:14:51Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:16:06Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T15:18:17Z _death: even if it's not on purpose btw, pjb's code should be fixed so that the symbols used are qualified with the right package
2021-01-29T15:19:07Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T15:19:50Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:20:21Z Josh_2: Hi, is there a library around that implements the Megolm v1 ratchet?
2021-01-29T15:20:37Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:24:07Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:24:09Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T15:24:22Z _death: nij: anyway, if you want to work around this, just delete the #+clisp code
2021-01-29T15:26:43Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:32:46Z theothornhill: What's the general consensus regarding fukamachiware vs edweitzware? Dexador vs drakma, Woo vs Hunchentoot etc. Is one of them regarded as "better"?
2021-01-29T15:32:47Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:33:23Z andreyorst` quit (Quit: andreyorst`)
2021-01-29T15:34:45Z Josh_2: I mix and match
2021-01-29T15:34:46Z jackdaniel: theothornhill: e.weitz wrote very clean code with documentation, e.fukamachi usually focused on scratching his own itch (and that is perfectly fine)
2021-01-29T15:35:01Z Josh_2: I use dex, and hunchentoot
2021-01-29T15:35:42Z Josh_2: I'm not really a fan of ningle of ningle, although in a high performance situation the fact it works on Woo is good as Woo is pretty darn fast
2021-01-29T15:36:01Z theothornhill: Yeah, I've noticed fukamachiware is more controversial
2021-01-29T15:36:18Z Josh_2: The documentation on fukamachiware is normally quite lacking
2021-01-29T15:36:27Z theothornhill: Yeah, I've seen that
2021-01-29T15:36:38Z Josh_2: that is not the case for edweitzware which is fantastically documented
2021-01-29T15:37:11Z theothornhill: Also he seems into Zappa
2021-01-29T15:37:18Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T15:37:19Z Josh_2: Whats that?
2021-01-29T15:37:23Z theothornhill: Frank Zappa
2021-01-29T15:37:27Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3))
2021-01-29T15:37:29Z jackdaniel: jazz performer
2021-01-29T15:37:41Z Josh_2: Oh right
2021-01-29T15:37:56Z theothornhill: Yeah, his documentation is riddled with nods to his works :P
2021-01-29T15:38:02Z Josh_2: Oh thats cool
2021-01-29T15:39:09Z nij: _death: oh yes indeed. :) That brought me to the next step. Thank you!
2021-01-29T15:39:28Z beach: Josh_2: One of the greatest 20th century composers.
2021-01-29T15:39:47Z theothornhill: Absolutely
2021-01-29T15:40:20Z theothornhill: You have a nice rabbit hole now, Josh_2
2021-01-29T15:41:04Z theothornhill: But is there reason to be worried about fukamachiware?
2021-01-29T15:41:21Z jackdaniel: theothornhill: it is usually fine with some rough edges
2021-01-29T15:41:23Z theothornhill: Other than lacking documentation? I mean, that _can_ be fixed
2021-01-29T15:41:29Z sjl joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:41:32Z jackdaniel: but when you need to extend it or fix it yourself, then you may get frustrated
2021-01-29T15:41:58Z jackdaniel: because there is quite a few unusual implementation choices (and hacks), plus undocumented dependencies
2021-01-29T15:42:33Z jackdaniel: (i.e to add something to clack, you need to grok lack abstractions)
2021-01-29T15:42:51Z jackdaniel: sometimes you encounter a memory leak that can't be easily fixed, because the function only pushed to closed over variable
2021-01-29T15:42:54Z jackdaniel: stuff like that
2021-01-29T15:43:17Z jackdaniel: (that is - hard to fix at runtime without compromising the state)
2021-01-29T15:43:53Z Josh_2: I looked at the Ningle source code and couldn't understand a bit of it
2021-01-29T15:44:29Z theothornhill: Hehe - I've heard that other places as well
2021-01-29T15:45:22Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:45:47Z theothornhill: Also, what is the canonical json parsing library?
2021-01-29T15:46:40Z jackdaniel: I've heard that cl-json was the fastest (but it assumes correct input)
2021-01-29T15:47:02Z jackdaniel: yason is hard to use, but it has a compelling abstraction
2021-01-29T15:47:09Z jackdaniel: (hard to use for me that is)
2021-01-29T15:47:20Z _death: I use dexador and hunchentoot as well.. unfortunately dexador picked drakma's nasty habit of returning the response as a bunch of values instead of a response object
2021-01-29T15:47:49Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:48:56Z aeth: theothornhill: there isn't a canonical json parsing library.
2021-01-29T15:49:01Z easye: _death: eh, I find that the styles of multiple values isn't bad.  At least dexdor tries to return a reference to text as the first value.  I still have to use FLEXI-STREAMS:MUMBLE-AS-OCTETS with drakma
2021-01-29T15:49:09Z theothornhill: jackdaniel: yason is the one I've used until now, I actually found that to be the simplest. Only because it just gave me a hash-table of the thing, avoing the whole mop business for simple queries
2021-01-29T15:49:51Z jackdaniel: theothornhill: cl-json is even simpler than that
2021-01-29T15:49:57Z easye has been working with jsown.  I have the start of a JSONpath library with jsown 
2021-01-29T15:50:09Z jackdaniel: by being hard to use I mean that I've found it tricky to extend it to accept my own objects for serialization
2021-01-29T15:50:17Z easye: I'd like to make JSONpath work across the various json implementations.
2021-01-29T15:50:24Z jackdaniel: erm, all I've said about cl-json -- I've meant jsown (sorry!)
2021-01-29T15:50:33Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T15:51:01Z theothornhill: Hadn't heard of jsown! Thanks
2021-01-29T15:51:39Z easye: jsown ain't the most convenient, but it is simple and fast.
2021-01-29T15:51:55Z _death: easye: well, I guess our usage differs.. the big reason why it's an annoyance is that I need to reach for the definition/docstring whenever I use it.. I always have lots of :force-binary t anyway
2021-01-29T15:52:28Z _death: *also have lots of
2021-01-29T15:54:09Z _death: I could write a wrapper and be done with it.. trouble is I use it in many projects and don't want them to depend on yet another one just for this
2021-01-29T15:54:26Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-29T15:54:32Z mrchampion joined #lisp
2021-01-29T15:55:11Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-29T15:56:21Z easye: _death: thinking of the values for an HTTP request:  it is probably worth it two create two facades, one for text oriented navigation, and one for binary requests, that call the underlying request method with appropiate defaults.
2021-01-29T15:56:23Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T15:58:21Z _death: the worst is to sometimes return a string and sometimes not
2021-01-29T15:58:33Z etimmons: Dexador has the benefit of tying into windows libraries to handle https. I've never gotten openssl through drakma to really work for me on windows.
2021-01-29T15:59:55Z theothornhill: etimmons: nice point. It worked really easily earlier on my workmachine
2021-01-29T16:00:01Z santiagopim[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days)
2021-01-29T16:00:26Z jackdaniel: I had one biggish problem in hunchentoot -- when you serve a file, you first need to load it into memory
2021-01-29T16:00:36Z jackdaniel: so you can't really serve big static files from it
2021-01-29T16:00:50Z jackdaniel: s/in/with/
2021-01-29T16:00:50Z _death: jackdaniel: does it read the whole file?
2021-01-29T16:01:00Z theothornhill: jackdaniel: cl-json seemed pretty simple with class, though: (cl-json:encode-json (make-instance 'x :name "something"))
2021-01-29T16:01:01Z jackdaniel: yes, that's what I remember
2021-01-29T16:01:25Z _death: jackdaniel: ouch.. though I have it behind nginx and user the latter to serve most static files
2021-01-29T16:01:28Z jackdaniel: theothornhill: I've have not used cl-json extensively -- mostly jsown and yason
2021-01-29T16:01:31Z _death: *use
2021-01-29T16:01:46Z jackdaniel: _death: the problem was, that files were guarded by the session yada yada
2021-01-29T16:02:49Z jackdaniel: (so i.e it wasn't really a static file, 404 was returned when not "logged")
2021-01-29T16:02:51Z _death: jackdaniel: I see
2021-01-29T16:03:05Z _death: jackdaniel: shouldn't that be 403? :)
2021-01-29T16:03:22Z jackdaniel: or 403, that was a long time ago, and I wasn't the main implementer of that part
2021-01-29T16:04:06Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:04:27Z jackdaniel: we've solved that with an obscure hack by creating a temporary symlink and letting (indeed) nginx to handle the request - the link was sent to the requestor and they were able to download the file
2021-01-29T16:04:31Z jackdaniel: then the symlink was removed
2021-01-29T16:05:05Z _death: jackdaniel: I think hunchentoot also lets you get a hold of the stream so you can diy.. and then, it can also be patched ;)
2021-01-29T16:05:38Z jackdaniel: I'm not saying that it disqualifies hunchentoot, still it is a problematic limitation
2021-01-29T16:06:01Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T16:06:14Z _death: jackdaniel: yeah
2021-01-29T16:07:28Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:08:36Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:09:14Z frgo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:10:11Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-29T16:10:43Z ikrabbe is now known as ikrabbe|2
2021-01-29T16:10:45Z ikrabbe|2 is now known as ikrabbe
2021-01-29T16:11:02Z ikrabbe quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/)
2021-01-29T16:11:44Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-29T16:13:00Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone)
2021-01-29T16:13:17Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T16:14:19Z theothornhill: Josh_2: btw: https://wiki.killuglyradio.com/index.php/Hunchentoot
2021-01-29T16:16:13Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:17:46Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:19:23Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T16:19:39Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-29T16:22:22Z charles` joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:22:33Z gioyik quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-29T16:22:59Z perceptron joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:30:29Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T16:30:49Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-29T16:31:26Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T16:32:42Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:33:40Z mrios22 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T16:36:14Z citizenajb joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:36:49Z citizenajb left #lisp
2021-01-29T16:38:10Z frgo joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:40:50Z frgo_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T16:42:20Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T16:44:07Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T16:47:08Z citizenajb joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:48:16Z citizenajb: I have a type question.  I think the result type of (* 3.0 x) where we know nothing about x (type t) is (or float (complex float))?  sbcl does not seem to derive this, which to me means I might be wrong!  See https://pastebin.com/MDm6fsrX for a case where it matters to me.
2021-01-29T16:48:55Z aeth: it is.
2021-01-29T16:50:44Z citizenajb: Thank you for the sanity check... I'll move to #sbcl
2021-01-29T16:51:37Z aeth: afaik, every number would become a (complex long-float) over time if you just kept doing generic arithmetic on randomly-typed things (in SBCL, though, a long-float is a double-float)
2021-01-29T16:51:47Z aeth: oh wait
2021-01-29T16:51:48Z aeth: no
2021-01-29T16:51:56Z perceptron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T16:51:56Z aeth: Wait, yes.
2021-01-29T16:53:44Z aeth: The 3.0 assuming 3.0f0 means it has to be (or single-float double-float long-float (complex single-float) (complex double-float) (complex long-float)) and in SBCL long-float is double-float
2021-01-29T16:54:37Z aeth: Technically, a compiler might choose that over (or float (complex float)) if it has a short-float, since it won't be a short-float.
2021-01-29T16:55:26Z aeth: It always goes to the most precise float: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/12_add.htm
2021-01-29T16:55:28Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:55:56Z pfdietz: Is there a recommended CL in-core database?
2021-01-29T16:56:18Z phoe: manardb maybe?
2021-01-29T16:56:32Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T16:57:09Z pfdietz: I'll look at it.  Is datafly recommended?  It's Fukamachi, which might be a negative.
2021-01-29T16:57:30Z phoe: shka_: you had some recent encounter with manardb, right?
2021-01-29T16:58:01Z aeth: (to be very clear because someone is going to poke me in 15 hours about it... all CL compilers have short-float. What I meant by "if it has a short-float" is "if it has a distinct short-float")
2021-01-29T16:59:41Z pfdietz: (feels preempted)
2021-01-29T16:59:42Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:00:17Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:01:34Z pfdietz: (reads about manardb)  This is a persistent object store; I was thinking more of a relational db.
2021-01-29T17:02:07Z aeth: citizenajb: and to really go into detail, SBCL supports rational as a *read-default-float-format* so without context (* 3.0 x) might result in a rational, but that would be resolved at read time, ahead of compiling it. I always do "3.0f0" when I mean single-float because sometimes I have it set to double-float when I'm using the REPL as a calculator.
2021-01-29T17:02:38Z phoe: oh, relational in-memory?
2021-01-29T17:02:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:02:40Z phoe: hmm
2021-01-29T17:03:35Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:04:01Z perceptron joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:05:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:06:37Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:07:13Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T17:08:42Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:08:55Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T17:09:23Z secretmyth joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:09:28Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:13:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:13:52Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:14:07Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:14:13Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:14:42Z citizenajb: aeth: Thank you for the details!
2021-01-29T17:14:45Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:15:48Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T17:16:19Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:16:47Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:18:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:19:20Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:20:00Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:20:24Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T17:20:38Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:21:21Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:21:38Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:22:02Z Wezl: where are some simple projects I can look at to understand cl packages?
2021-01-29T17:22:15Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:27:33Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T17:27:34Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:28:13Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:30:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:30:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:31:19Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:35:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:36:08Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:36:36Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T17:40:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:41:43Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:42:33Z Major_Biscuit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T17:43:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:44:20Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-29T17:44:39Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:45:19Z BCMCCMMNX joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:45:43Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T17:46:48Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:47:55Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:49:43Z perceptron quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T17:50:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:50:33Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:51:02Z remby joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:51:36Z pfdietz: Really any system in quicklisp.  Every one of them should use packages in some way.  Pick a small one, then work up.
2021-01-29T17:52:24Z phoe: Wezl: have you read the PCL chapter about packages and/or http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf ?
2021-01-29T17:52:32Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T17:53:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T17:53:08Z Wezl: phoe: yes, I just read most of the flownet one
2021-01-29T17:53:52Z Wezl: but I haven't gotten to that chapter in PCL, I really should finish it
2021-01-29T17:53:58Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:54:17Z Wezl: thx
2021-01-29T17:54:35Z phoe: sure
2021-01-29T17:54:44Z phoe: here and #clschool are open for any questions you might have during or after reading
2021-01-29T17:55:17Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:55:21Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:55:55Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:58:14Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-29T17:58:20Z remby: how easy is it to build sbcl?
2021-01-29T17:58:28Z phoe: remby: easy enough I guess
2021-01-29T17:58:41Z phoe: get yourself a C environment and a conforming Lisp implementation, like an earlier build of SBCL
2021-01-29T17:58:53Z phoe: clone the repo, and run the build script
2021-01-29T17:59:09Z remby: I'm trying to think about how compilers integrate well with unixy like systems, it's a complex task, but when I think about it, not a lot
2021-01-29T17:59:21Z phoe: compilers of what exactly?
2021-01-29T17:59:43Z remby: just in general, I've been keeping that in mind now that I'm trying to pick a lisp implementation
2021-01-29T17:59:43Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T18:00:35Z phoe: a compiler is just a program like any other, except it pops out code as output
2021-01-29T18:00:43Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:00:49Z phoe: maybe you mean generating unix executables or something
2021-01-29T18:01:33Z citizenajb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T18:01:53Z remby: no, but an example would be how to get the compiler up and running on another operating system
2021-01-29T18:02:03Z phoe: cross-compilation!
2021-01-29T18:03:02Z phoe: ...though I don't know if SBCL or CCL support cross-compiling for other OSes
2021-01-29T18:03:25Z ym_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-29T18:03:32Z remby: um, well I didn't explain myself well
2021-01-29T18:03:52Z remby: but yeah that would be interesting
2021-01-29T18:03:54Z phoe: I think you need a Windows environment to build a Windows SBCL or CCL
2021-01-29T18:04:15Z phoe: (AFAIR Wine counts as enough of a Windows environment to build SBCL)
2021-01-29T18:04:59Z remby: but I think I got what I needed to know about assessing dependencies
2021-01-29T18:05:11Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:07:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T18:08:03Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:08:58Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:08:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T18:09:54Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:11:36Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T18:11:36Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:13:22Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:13:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T18:14:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:15:45Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T18:16:10Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T18:18:22Z saganman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T18:19:52Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T18:21:20Z perceptron joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:22:35Z kapil_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T18:23:51Z kapil_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:24:56Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-29T18:26:20Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:34:24Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T18:39:46Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:41:29Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:45:56Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-29T18:46:04Z wsinatra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T18:47:22Z jasom: remby: the interface of a compiler and an OS is very narrow.  The interface of the runtime and the OS is very broad though.
2021-01-29T18:48:04Z jasom: Any self-hosting compiler will tend to require (a subset of) the runtime to run the compiler though.
2021-01-29T18:52:29Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-29T18:54:50Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:55:53Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-29T18:56:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T18:57:46Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-29T19:05:25Z Aurora_iz_kosmos joined #lisp
2021-01-29T19:06:07Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-29T19:07:38Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-29T19:07:55Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T19:08:01Z Aurora_iz_kosmos is now known as Aurora_v_kosmose
2021-01-29T19:11:42Z perceptron quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T19:18:08Z matryoshka quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-29T19:21:09Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-29T19:21:14Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T19:21:44Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T19:27:33Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-29T19:32:16Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T19:32:16Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T19:32:58Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-29T19:37:08Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T19:37:53Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-29T19:39:35Z matryoshka quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-29T19:41:13Z matryoshka joined #lisp
2021-01-29T19:45:29Z rogersm quit
2021-01-29T19:47:28Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-29T19:48:14Z perceptron joined #lisp
2021-01-29T19:48:36Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T19:48:41Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-29T19:51:27Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:05:05Z perceptron quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T20:07:05Z didi joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:08:02Z didi: So Costanza is writing Go: <https://p-cos.blogspot.com/2021/01/the-slick-programming-language.html>
2021-01-29T20:09:10Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:11:33Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:12:38Z no-defun-allowed: At least he knows how to write a Lisp reader, I guess.
2021-01-29T20:15:32Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:17:43Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-29T20:29:23Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T20:30:38Z scymtym_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T20:31:07Z scymtym joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:31:19Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:33:22Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:34:23Z terpri quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T20:36:35Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:40:12Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T20:41:02Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:41:20Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T20:41:27Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-29T20:41:28Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:42:18Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:44:27Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T20:46:01Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:48:56Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T20:48:58Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:49:03Z andreyorst quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T20:49:18Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:49:38Z gioyik quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-29T20:51:32Z KREYREN quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T20:51:52Z KREYREN joined #lisp
2021-01-29T20:52:14Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T20:53:01Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-29T21:02:48Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-29T21:02:49Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-29T21:04:21Z gioyik quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-29T21:07:50Z remby quit (Quit: remby)
2021-01-29T21:10:48Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T21:12:07Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-29T21:13:41Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T21:17:24Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T21:17:36Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-29T21:18:23Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T21:18:40Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T21:19:09Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T21:20:41Z Steeve joined #lisp
2021-01-29T21:22:39Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T21:23:05Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T21:24:36Z Steeve quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-29T21:28:13Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-29T21:49:53Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-29T21:51:19Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-29T21:51:48Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T21:53:58Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T21:54:08Z aeth quit (Disconnected by services)
2021-01-29T21:54:39Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-29T21:56:09Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T21:56:46Z ukari quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T21:57:24Z hhdave quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T21:58:11Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T22:01:53Z stylewarning: I hereby vow to never write a blog post stating I’ve switched to a Lisp façade for an employer, and I hereby vow to never pull a Norvig and write 5 line Python scripts making claims it’s comparable to Lisp because I’ve lost the big picture of big software.
2021-01-29T22:02:13Z stylewarning: (What I can’t guarantee is that I’ll ever write a book as cool as Norvig’s hit)
2021-01-29T22:03:50Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T22:03:57Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:05:15Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-29T22:07:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T22:07:50Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:07:59Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-29T22:08:20Z notzmv joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:09:13Z jeosol: stylewarning: that's funny. What's making you take that stand
2021-01-29T22:10:39Z stylewarning: Just as a sort of joke. Lots of career Lispers eventually fold and write something about their acceptance of some other state of affairs (which is of course fine).
2021-01-29T22:13:45Z aeth: I don't fold, I reduce.
2021-01-29T22:14:16Z jeosol: aeth: lol, is it the map variant of reduce?
2021-01-29T22:14:37Z no-defun-allowed: Fold must fold!
2021-01-29T22:14:44Z theothornhill: left or right?
2021-01-29T22:15:02Z Alfr_: jeosol, it's the other way around, you can easily implement map using reduce.
2021-01-29T22:18:19Z jeosol: yeah,
2021-01-29T22:18:33Z jeosol: aeth: so you are holding the line
2021-01-29T22:21:59Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T22:22:44Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:23:51Z aeth: "y = m x + b" or "a x + b y + c = 0" or "y = y1 + m (x - x1)" or something else? So many different line equations.
2021-01-29T22:24:23Z gioyik quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-29T22:25:24Z logand joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:25:45Z tgbugs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-29T22:25:54Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
2021-01-29T22:26:05Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T22:26:43Z tgbugs joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:27:04Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:27:38Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:28:17Z jeosol: aeth: lol, not what I meant but I get your point. Holding the line like in lisp line of defence
2021-01-29T22:30:00Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T22:37:52Z hhdave joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:38:24Z zulu-inuoe joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:40:32Z joseph joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:40:52Z zulu-inuoe: Hey all - Is there a way to make a two-way string stream, so that I can (write-line "foo" stream) and then (read-line stream) and get back "foo" ?
2021-01-29T22:40:56Z joseph is now known as Guest15037
2021-01-29T22:41:26Z Alfr_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-29T22:41:26Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T22:42:58Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:44:11Z Guest15037 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-29T22:53:55Z stylewarning: zulu-inuoe: and you want to be able to extract the complete string at any time?
2021-01-29T22:54:32Z alandipert: zulu-inuoe make-two-way-stream could be the ticket
2021-01-29T22:54:42Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-29T22:55:06Z stylewarning: zulu-inuoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_two.htm#make-two-way-stream
2021-01-29T22:55:09Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:55:20Z stylewarning: alandipert you beat me
2021-01-29T22:55:44Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-29T22:56:02Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-29T22:58:11Z alandipert: call it a draw because you brought the link :-)
2021-01-29T23:01:46Z stylewarning: (:
2021-01-29T23:02:20Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T23:05:43Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-29T23:06:31Z zulu-inuoe: stylewarning: I don't want/need the full string. I basically want a stream that never EOF's (until closed or something) that I can keep writing to
2021-01-29T23:06:45Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T23:06:56Z zulu-inuoe: Maybe I misunderstood make-two-way-stream but I didn't see a way of doing that
2021-01-29T23:08:17Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-29T23:08:21Z zulu-inuoe: BTW I realized I could solve my problem by using `:stream` for `:input` on `sb-ext:run-program`, but that still had me curious if creating this sort of stream was possible in standard CL (easy with gray streams)
2021-01-29T23:09:36Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T23:11:48Z Stanley00 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T23:14:26Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-29T23:16:29Z Xach: mgr_: it is done
2021-01-29T23:16:41Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T23:17:26Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-29T23:19:35Z Xach: the planet lisp archives just keep getting older and older
2021-01-29T23:19:51Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T23:24:55Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-29T23:27:41Z Nilby: but it's very young for a planet
2021-01-29T23:30:30Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-29T23:32:24Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T23:37:42Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T23:38:13Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-29T23:40:55Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-29T23:43:00Z BCMCCMMNX left #lisp
2021-01-29T23:48:44Z mfiano: zero-length PLNs are pointlessly valid it seems :) (:local-nicknames (#: #:alexandria))
2021-01-29T23:48:45Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-29T23:49:36Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T23:50:17Z Codaraxis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-29T23:52:31Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-29T23:53:26Z secretmyth quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-29T23:53:43Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-29T23:54:18Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-29T23:55:25Z Josh_2: theothornhill: a bit late but I use jonathan to parse my json
2021-01-29T23:56:24Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-29T23:57:45Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-29T23:58:23Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-30T00:01:36Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T00:04:12Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-30T00:06:00Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T00:08:00Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T00:08:23Z Nilby: I make the same vow as stylewarning, but irrelevantly, since I've classic-lisp-cursed myself to live out my years in 90% oblivion, and I'll never write a book, blog, or be employed.
2021-01-30T00:08:48Z stylewarning: Haha :[
2021-01-30T00:13:03Z Xach: i pledge never to sell out (and by that i mean use uiop functions)
2021-01-30T00:16:31Z Nilby: lol. nice. keep strong
2021-01-30T00:18:35Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T00:23:18Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T00:25:52Z hineios quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T00:25:55Z charles`: Xach: what is wrong with uiop?
2021-01-30T00:32:06Z mrios22 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T00:33:48Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T00:38:23Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T00:42:09Z stylewarning: Xach: haha
2021-01-30T00:47:53Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T00:48:08Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-30T00:51:38Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T00:53:48Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T00:56:10Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T00:57:28Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-30T00:57:54Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-30T01:03:24Z aeth: I plan to sell Lisp, anyone want to buy one? No?
2021-01-30T01:03:25Z aeth: :-p
2021-01-30T01:05:36Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-30T01:08:00Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T01:12:48Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T01:19:14Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-30T01:20:19Z zulu-inuoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T01:24:27Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T01:25:20Z andreyorst quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-30T01:27:47Z mikecheck quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T01:28:28Z mikecheck joined #lisp
2021-01-30T01:28:48Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T01:41:42Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T01:45:57Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T01:50:35Z pankajsg joined #lisp
2021-01-30T01:53:32Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-30T01:56:32Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T01:57:27Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:00:12Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-30T02:02:06Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T02:07:38Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:13:06Z icov0x29a joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:15:09Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:18:47Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-30T02:19:43Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T02:23:37Z BCMCCMMNX joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:25:49Z didi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T02:31:15Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-30T02:31:26Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-30T02:32:07Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-30T02:33:12Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:36:24Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T02:36:48Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:37:40Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T02:39:25Z icov0x29a quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T02:39:53Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:41:39Z logand` joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:43:00Z rumbler31_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T02:43:52Z bilegeek joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:45:06Z logand quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T02:50:58Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:52:12Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T02:55:02Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-30T02:55:22Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:55:22Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T02:55:25Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T03:00:03Z karlosz quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-30T03:00:21Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:03:42Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-30T03:05:04Z karlosz quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-30T03:05:22Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:08:03Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:10:05Z karlosz quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-30T03:10:21Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:12:55Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T03:20:34Z Christ0pher joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:23:29Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T03:23:50Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:24:54Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:25:22Z pfdietz: mfiano:  the package with zero-length name is valid.  Escape the package name with ||.   So:   ||::|| is the zero-length symbol in the zero-length package.
2021-01-30T03:25:59Z terpri joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:26:25Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:28:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T03:28:26Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:29:23Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T03:29:25Z aeth: (defpackage #:|| (:use #:cl) (:export #:||)) (defun ||::|| ()) (||::||)
2021-01-30T03:30:10Z aeth: And this also seems to work as an alternative: (defpackage #: (:use #:cl) (:export #:))
2021-01-30T03:30:54Z aeth: I'm impressed. This is approaching code golf levels of symbols.
2021-01-30T03:35:38Z icov0x29a joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:41:14Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:42:49Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:43:10Z pfdietz: Now we consider zero-length space characters in unicode.
2021-01-30T03:43:15Z KREYREEN joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:44:36Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T03:44:54Z KREYREN quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T03:47:24Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T03:49:12Z icov0x29a quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T03:51:40Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-30T03:52:32Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:53:45Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-30T03:54:05Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T03:55:42Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T04:00:08Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T04:01:41Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T04:04:16Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T04:06:21Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-30T04:06:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp
2021-01-30T04:16:13Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T04:18:08Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-30T04:20:48Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T04:22:27Z icov0x29a joined #lisp
2021-01-30T04:23:46Z icov0x29a quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T04:25:04Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-30T04:25:25Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-30T04:32:25Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T04:37:03Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T04:41:54Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-30T04:42:30Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-30T04:45:11Z v3ga quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-01-30T04:45:29Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-30T04:51:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T04:51:07Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-30T04:53:10Z _whitelogger joined #lisp
2021-01-30T04:59:13Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-30T05:03:57Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T05:08:24Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T05:18:53Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-30T05:20:16Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T05:20:35Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-30T05:22:03Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-30T05:26:35Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T05:26:55Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T05:31:54Z ldb joined #lisp
2021-01-30T05:32:12Z ldb: good afternone
2021-01-30T05:45:14Z gioyik quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T05:45:39Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-30T05:50:08Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T05:54:36Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T06:00:13Z beach: Hello ldb.
2021-01-30T06:04:56Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T06:09:47Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T06:11:09Z enzuru joined #lisp
2021-01-30T06:12:43Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-30T06:15:59Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-30T06:17:18Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-30T06:18:59Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-30T06:30:46Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T06:31:30Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T06:32:17Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T06:35:45Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T06:48:29Z mindCrime_ quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-30T06:48:57Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T06:49:13Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T06:52:51Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T06:52:58Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T06:55:33Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-30T06:57:38Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T07:02:16Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:02:49Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T07:04:13Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:06:35Z theothornhill quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T07:06:42Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:07:39Z ym joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:07:57Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-30T07:08:18Z Anonymous_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T07:08:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:11:06Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T07:12:30Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:16:41Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:17:02Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T07:19:04Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:19:51Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T07:20:49Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:21:58Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:25:07Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:26:16Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T07:26:24Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:26:53Z iskander quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T07:27:14Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:27:43Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T07:28:32Z ecm1 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:28:50Z lottaquestions_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T07:29:06Z mindCrime_ is now known as mindCrime
2021-01-30T07:29:43Z ecm1 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-30T07:30:01Z ecm1 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:30:11Z ecm1 left #lisp
2021-01-30T07:30:47Z ecm1 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:31:20Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:31:25Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T07:32:29Z ecm1 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-30T07:32:32Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:32:32Z gaqwas quit (Changing host)
2021-01-30T07:32:32Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:35:00Z akoana left #lisp
2021-01-30T07:36:45Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T07:38:08Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:38:48Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:43:44Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:44:54Z theothornhill quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T07:45:02Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:47:00Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T07:47:09Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:48:58Z BCMCCMMNX left #lisp
2021-01-30T07:49:09Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:49:25Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T07:49:56Z nicktick joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:51:10Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-30T07:55:32Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-30T07:59:09Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T07:59:56Z nicktick quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-30T08:04:53Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T08:07:03Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T08:16:06Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T08:26:18Z jbayardo1 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T08:26:26Z jbayardo1 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-30T08:28:45Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T08:31:48Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T08:32:34Z ldb joined #lisp
2021-01-30T08:35:03Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T08:38:45Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T08:39:52Z KREYREEN quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T08:40:12Z KREYREEN joined #lisp
2021-01-30T08:44:54Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-30T08:50:26Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-30T08:55:03Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T09:01:27Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-30T09:02:38Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T09:08:11Z hendursa1 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T09:10:25Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-30T09:10:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T09:11:07Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T09:18:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T09:19:14Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T09:21:23Z ldb: is there any data structure works like circular buffer but purely functional?
2021-01-30T09:29:21Z Nilby: I'm not sure what you mean, but one can do something like this: (subseq '#1=(#\x . #1#) 0 20))
2021-01-30T09:31:03Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T09:34:27Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T09:39:58Z ldb: Nilby: circular buffer is like an array with fill pointer that when gets full it overwrites the mose old entry
2021-01-30T09:40:44Z ldb: instead of expand the array
2021-01-30T09:41:32Z Nilby: What would it mean to be purely functional then?
2021-01-30T09:43:17Z ldb: i guess it would like a queue but the very first element automatically discarded when the length exceeded certain amounts
2021-01-30T09:44:16Z White_Flame: ldb: what's the difference between that, and a pure functional array where you simply drop off older entries without overwriting them?
2021-01-30T09:44:23Z White_Flame: right
2021-01-30T09:45:04Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-30T09:45:08Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T09:45:21Z White_Flame: and I'd say only drop off old nodes if they're fully passed by, don't bother dropping individual entries, and store a first-entry offset
2021-01-30T09:45:42Z White_Flame: should save a lot of work, assuming each node is a batch of consecutive entries
2021-01-30T09:47:17Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-30T09:49:43Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T10:01:12Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:02:13Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:03:30Z Nilby: A non-mutative circular buffer would just eat memory, so you're actually just making the garbage collector do the mutative circularity work.
2021-01-30T10:04:44Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-30T10:05:12Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:05:31Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T10:12:57Z ldb: White_Flame: the queue thing is actually an index to a binary search tree
2021-01-30T10:14:00Z ldb: so it would be strange if the index is mutable when the tree is immutable and shared
2021-01-30T10:16:03Z amk quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T10:16:32Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:16:56Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T10:17:02Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:17:24Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:20:52Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T10:24:56Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:25:14Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2021-01-30T10:25:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T10:26:04Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T10:27:53Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life
2021-01-30T10:29:13Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:29:36Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T10:30:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T10:32:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:32:59Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:33:13Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-30T10:34:41Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:37:31Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T10:38:45Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:41:42Z didi joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:42:09Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:43:42Z White_Flame: ldb: since the root node of the tree has to change every time there's a change in the functional structure, the index can live there
2021-01-30T10:49:32Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:50:22Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T10:53:34Z White_Flame: most of the structure would be shared when adding to the buffer
2021-01-30T10:55:22Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T10:55:22Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-30T11:00:06Z vegansbane696 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-30T11:00:53Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-30T11:04:07Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T11:04:20Z ldb: White_Flame: sounds a good idea
2021-01-30T11:05:42Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T11:09:56Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T11:14:23Z White_Flame: but if you're just using a plain tree without multi-element nodes, then pruning old values may or may not amortize, unless you have a special function for it
2021-01-30T11:14:55Z White_Flame: *batch pruning old values
2021-01-30T11:22:38Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T11:26:57Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T11:29:36Z vegansbane696 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T11:31:16Z aindilis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T11:37:16Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T11:37:35Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T11:38:36Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T11:38:37Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-30T11:42:23Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T11:42:53Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T11:43:03Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T11:43:33Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T11:44:32Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T11:44:56Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T11:47:18Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T11:48:46Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T11:56:30Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T12:00:22Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-30T12:00:57Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T12:06:42Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp
2021-01-30T12:10:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T12:11:07Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-30T12:11:27Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T12:18:27Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T12:22:47Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T12:23:21Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-30T12:26:29Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-30T12:30:16Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T12:35:48Z phoe: SBCL 2.1.1 released.
2021-01-30T12:36:29Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T12:38:25Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-30T12:38:46Z Krystof: \o/
2021-01-30T12:39:18Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-30T12:39:45Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T12:39:57Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T12:40:15Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T12:48:06Z Xach prepares for purging a bunch of things that don't work with sbcl 2.1.1 and which are unmaintained
2021-01-30T12:48:22Z phoe: Xach: please post a list of them when you have it
2021-01-30T12:48:42Z Xach: approximately http://report.quicklisp.org/2021-01-30/failure-report.html  (cl-protobufs is not one of them)
2021-01-30T12:52:01Z phoe: ppf
2021-01-30T12:52:03Z phoe: oof*
2021-01-30T12:52:11Z phoe: removing clml and lisp-binary and screamer and weblocks is going to be a pain
2021-01-30T12:52:14Z theothornhill: whats the sly equivalent of slime-inspect-presentation-at-point? Can't seem to find anything
2021-01-30T12:52:26Z phoe: theothornhill: sly has no presentations, AFAIK
2021-01-30T12:53:17Z theothornhill: So the nice datastruvture viewer isnt there? Oh
2021-01-30T12:53:25Z phoe: the inspector is there
2021-01-30T12:53:31Z phoe: the presentations aren't
2021-01-30T12:54:25Z Xach: I click on things in the sly repl to inspect them
2021-01-30T12:54:34Z Xach: I don't use that functionality in slime so I don't know the equivalents.
2021-01-30T12:55:10Z Xach: (i was really happy to learn about emacs's xterm mouse mode where clicking works even through ssh to a remote emacs)
2021-01-30T12:56:14Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-30T12:56:26Z theothornhill: Ah, that works ok I think!
2021-01-30T12:56:29Z theothornhill: Thanks
2021-01-30T13:00:31Z Xach: I started using sly a few months ago and really like it. there are only a few things that trip me up in the slime->sly transition.
2021-01-30T13:00:51Z theothornhill: What are those?
2021-01-30T13:01:00Z Xach: one is the reverse-search in buffer vs reverse-search repl history
2021-01-30T13:01:05Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:01:19Z theothornhill: Ah thats one of the things I love with sly
2021-01-30T13:01:23Z Xach: and very very occasionally my notion of * differs from sly's due to some unknown cause
2021-01-30T13:01:33Z Xach: theothornhill: it's sensible behavior but muscle memory lingers
2021-01-30T13:01:45Z theothornhill: Yeah, I know
2021-01-30T13:02:28Z lotuseater quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T13:02:46Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:03:33Z phoe: Xach: screamer issue made at https://github.com/nikodemus/screamer/issues/19
2021-01-30T13:04:32Z Xach: Ahh, thanks. I thought I reported all errors but that one is new since the last big breaking change.
2021-01-30T13:05:33Z Xach: i have a program to go through all github-hosted projects and submit a bug if one doesn't already exist, but i haven't run it lately
2021-01-30T13:05:40Z Krystof: it feels just like 2002, SBCL breaking all the things all the time
2021-01-30T13:05:41Z phoe: yes, I've noticed
2021-01-30T13:06:04Z phoe: ...the lisp-binary error seems weird though
2021-01-30T13:06:09Z phoe: http://report.quicklisp.org/2021-01-17/failure-report/lisp-binary.html
2021-01-30T13:06:27Z phoe: in: DEFUN MAPSEQ (MAPCAR FUNCTION SEQUENCE)
2021-01-30T13:06:28Z phoe: Derived type of SEQUENCE is (OR VECTOR SB-KERNEL:EXTENDED-SEQUENCE), conflicting with its asserted type LIST.
2021-01-30T13:06:34Z phoe: https://github.com/j3pic/lisp-binary/blob/02ce88f285ef4c8e8b3c2be3385217490fab9628/utils.lisp#L293-L297
2021-01-30T13:06:52Z Xach: phoe: interesting!
2021-01-30T13:07:12Z Krystof: it means :initial-contents sequence, I think
2021-01-30T13:07:21Z Xach: ah yes
2021-01-30T13:07:21Z phoe: !
2021-01-30T13:07:23Z phoe: oh right
2021-01-30T13:07:26Z Krystof: oh, no
2021-01-30T13:07:28Z Krystof: sorry
2021-01-30T13:07:37Z phoe: yes, it must mean it
2021-01-30T13:07:40Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-30T13:07:44Z Krystof: it means :initial-contents (map 'list function sequence)
2021-01-30T13:07:44Z phoe: (LISTP SEQUENCE} is false
2021-01-30T13:07:49Z phoe: yes, this
2021-01-30T13:07:56Z Krystof: the initial-contents is where the function actually gets applied
2021-01-30T13:08:06Z Xach: phoe: i'll report that one
2021-01-30T13:08:17Z Xach: oh, i guess i already did
2021-01-30T13:08:46Z phoe: you already did
2021-01-30T13:08:47Z Xach: for me it's as easy as (report-bug-in 'lisp-binary) RET RET
2021-01-30T13:08:51Z phoe: and I just commented with a fix
2021-01-30T13:08:52Z phoe: Xach: nice
2021-01-30T13:08:53Z Xach: so i forget sometimes
2021-01-30T13:09:15Z Xach: i hate the github monoculture, but the convenience...!
2021-01-30T13:09:32Z phoe: SBCL is indeed getting better and better at removing projects from quickli^W^W^W^Wfinding bugs in code at compile-time
2021-01-30T13:11:07Z Xach: i've been using allegro a lot lately and i really miss some of the bugcatching of sbcl
2021-01-30T13:11:20Z Xach: simple things like invalid argument count to local functions are missed
2021-01-30T13:11:26Z Xach: and compile-time format-control checking
2021-01-30T13:11:42Z phoe: ow
2021-01-30T13:17:07Z phoe: Xach: when is the deadline for removing stuff?
2021-01-30T13:17:23Z Xach: phoe: no real deadline, but the next release will be at the end of february.
2021-01-30T13:17:32Z phoe: so more or less a month, okay
2021-01-30T13:17:33Z Xach: phoe: if things remain bad i may continue to build with 2.0.5
2021-01-30T13:17:48Z phoe: I might try to migrate the more popular projects to sharplispers to avoid that
2021-01-30T13:17:56Z phoe: and fix them there
2021-01-30T13:18:48Z Xach: phoe: that would be quite kind of you
2021-01-30T13:19:08Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T13:19:27Z phoe: OK - please remind me in a week or so if the fixes are not applied or something
2021-01-30T13:19:39Z phoe: I'll try to contact the authors and then fork what I can.
2021-01-30T13:19:54Z phoe: (if still necessary)
2021-01-30T13:20:03Z Xach: they are too busy for bug reports it seems
2021-01-30T13:20:28Z phoe: yes, but there's still a bit of time until the next QL release
2021-01-30T13:20:33Z phoe: lemme wait a bit longer and then we'll act.
2021-01-30T13:21:59Z Xach: well, the bug reports are sometimes quite old
2021-01-30T13:22:13Z Xach: it's not a problem that arrived in the last month, and i'm not sure it will be fixed in the next month
2021-01-30T13:22:21Z phoe: well then
2021-01-30T13:22:27Z phoe: I'll try to put it another way
2021-01-30T13:22:37Z phoe: let me be a lazy bum for another week and then I'll start forkin'
2021-01-30T13:23:25Z Xach: there's certainly no rush for a third party (you) to fix things, i meant more that i didn't think that timeframe would see much action by the original authors.
2021-01-30T13:23:42Z phoe: ooh, I understand now
2021-01-30T13:27:39Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:30:31Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:33:02Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-30T13:35:47Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:38:41Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:39:02Z McParen joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:42:45Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T13:46:14Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T13:47:27Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:48:56Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:49:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T13:49:27Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:50:23Z krid joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:50:25Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T13:51:27Z eden joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:54:27Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T13:55:06Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:56:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T13:58:53Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:58:53Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T13:59:28Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T13:59:40Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T13:59:43Z ex_nihilo: Xach: I've seen you mention a couple of times recently that you have been building with SBCL 2.0.5 while there are issues with 2.1. Is there something special about 2.0.5?
2021-01-30T14:01:27Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T14:01:52Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:03:45Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:04:17Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:04:27Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:04:31Z iskander quit (Quit: bye)
2021-01-30T14:05:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T14:05:28Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:07:16Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:10:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T14:10:29Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:10:38Z zulu-inuoe joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:12:10Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T14:12:31Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:13:03Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:13:09Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T14:13:22Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:13:29Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:15:10Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T14:15:31Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:16:01Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:16:07Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T14:16:28Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:16:58Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:17:41Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:18:21Z iskander quit (Quit: bye)
2021-01-30T14:20:52Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:22:10Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:24:54Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T14:24:56Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T14:25:00Z u0_a61 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:25:45Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:27:04Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:28:27Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:28:42Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:30:07Z Xach: ex_nihilo: it finds fewer bugs
2021-01-30T14:30:50Z narimiran joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:32:51Z ex_nihilo: Xach: is 2.0.5 better than 2.0.6 - 2.0.11 in that regard?
2021-01-30T14:33:29Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:33:37Z Xach: ex_nihilo: i don't know the exact point it started to detect e.g. slot initform/type incongruence - i picked 2.0.5 somewhat arbitrarily.
2021-01-30T14:34:08Z davd33 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:34:21Z ex_nihilo: I see; thanks
2021-01-30T14:36:29Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:36:52Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:38:26Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:39:34Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:40:02Z aindilis joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:40:14Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:41:25Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:44:25Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:45:19Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:45:43Z Xach: i think sbcl's changes are a net good, they just create some temporary headaches for me
2021-01-30T14:46:04Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:47:29Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-30T14:49:01Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:50:36Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:51:48Z phoe: it's the CL immune system kicking in as it becomes better
2021-01-30T14:52:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:52:40Z ex_nihilo: CLovid-19?
2021-01-30T14:52:45Z Kilomomo joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:56:03Z xanderle quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-30T14:56:16Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:57:41Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:58:04Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:58:33Z xanderle quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-30T14:58:56Z xanderle joined #lisp
2021-01-30T14:59:23Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T14:59:37Z ralt: Xach: in sly you can move one line up for C-r to do in-buffer search
2021-01-30T15:01:35Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:04:09Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:05:31Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-30T15:05:36Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:05:43Z Xach joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:06:59Z Xach: ralt: indeed - but that feels a little weird and unnecessary
2021-01-30T15:09:16Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-30T15:11:48Z Kilomomo left #lisp
2021-01-30T15:12:06Z phoe: Xach: is there any help you'd need with regard to implementing PGP signatures in Quicklisp? Asking in context of that recent /r/lisp post
2021-01-30T15:13:48Z Xach: phoe: one sticking point is key rotation. i'm not sure how to adapt my initial implementation (which assumes an unchanging signing key) to a key that is periodically updated.
2021-01-30T15:14:16Z Xach: i have all the code and now i need to figure out the policy and structure.
2021-01-30T15:14:39Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-30T15:17:50Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:18:31Z phoe: I assume that we could write a test suite that generates a signing key that expires in five seconds, tests that everything works, sleeps for five seconds, then tests with a derivative of the original key
2021-01-30T15:18:43Z phoe: and asserts that the original fails
2021-01-30T15:19:36Z Xach: what good would that do?
2021-01-30T15:20:02Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:20:27Z phoe: it's a unit test for the thing that you describe - assert that key rotation works
2021-01-30T15:20:46Z phoe: and then try and fix the implementation until the test passes, in the TDD spirit
2021-01-30T15:20:51Z phoe: at least that's how I'd approach it
2021-01-30T15:21:32Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:22:17Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:22:30Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:22:43Z Xach: i'm afraid that is not helpful to me.
2021-01-30T15:23:22Z u0_a61 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:23:52Z phoe: OK - I'll need to take a deeper dive into your PGP implementation then
2021-01-30T15:24:27Z Xach: i don't think it really has anything to do with that.
2021-01-30T15:24:41Z phoe: oh? you did mention key rotation though
2021-01-30T15:25:01Z Xach: yes. how do clients get updated keys? where do new signatures live?
2021-01-30T15:25:49Z phoe: hmmm
2021-01-30T15:26:25Z phoe: basically, you have a non-expiring master key that you use only for generating temporary keys
2021-01-30T15:26:39Z phoe: and then when you create a new temporary keys, you sign the new key with the old one and vice versa
2021-01-30T15:26:49Z phoe: s/a new/new/
2021-01-30T15:26:52Z saganman is now known as blackadder
2021-01-30T15:26:52Z Xach: "old"? like the previous temporary key?
2021-01-30T15:27:06Z phoe: yes
2021-01-30T15:27:20Z phoe: and then the old temporary key can either be revoked or it can expire on its own
2021-01-30T15:27:33Z Xach: how are keys revoked?
2021-01-30T15:27:33Z phoe: google-fu tells me https://danielpecos.com/2019/03/30/how-to-rotate-your-openpgp-gnupg-keys/
2021-01-30T15:28:33Z phoe: IIRC you sign a message that tells your favorite keyserver "hey, I am revoking this key, don't use it anymore" and then you send it
2021-01-30T15:28:33Z Xach: So how does the client get the new key, and where do new signatures live?
2021-01-30T15:29:08Z phoe: that's already an infrastructure question I think - you can possibly distribute your public keys via http://quicklisp.org
2021-01-30T15:29:12Z Xach: Key servers are not involved in the client.
2021-01-30T15:29:20Z blackadder left #lisp
2021-01-30T15:29:48Z phoe: I mean, in theory, the client can download the file at http://quicklisp.org/keys/newest.zip and inflate it and scan the contents of that archive
2021-01-30T15:30:07Z phoe: bam, there are the new keys with new signatures
2021-01-30T15:30:45Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:30:45Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:31:12Z Xach: Yes, there are many possible theories, but one must be chosen, and its strengths and weaknesses assessed, and implemented, and that's where things are at now.
2021-01-30T15:31:54Z phoe: Quicklisp already uses HTTP, so it can also use it to get its keys
2021-01-30T15:32:09Z phoe: that's one big plus, the infrastructure is already mostly there
2021-01-30T15:34:39Z Xach: the infrastructure is 100% there and it's a matter of policy and structure (as i mentioned)
2021-01-30T15:34:43Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:34:53Z Xach: where things go, how they are updated, and how updates are visible to the client
2021-01-30T15:35:13Z phoe: I can scribble a proposal for that
2021-01-30T15:35:28Z Xach: i have as a given: fetch things, verify signature file x signs object y
2021-01-30T15:38:17Z v3ga quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-01-30T15:38:33Z lowryder quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:38:34Z v3ga joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:39:28Z thmprover joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:39:37Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:40:32Z lowryder joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:41:20Z phoe: Xach: how often do you want to rotate the keys?
2021-01-30T15:42:19Z phoe: once per release? once a year? now and then and whenever it's required?
2021-01-30T15:42:19Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:45:16Z chewbranca quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:45:30Z billstclair quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T15:45:40Z billstclair joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:45:57Z chewbranca joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:46:08Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:46:38Z Xach: phoe: i'm not sure. i don't think i like "whenever it's required" - i think i'd prefer a calendar cadence, but maybe a release cadence makes sense.
2021-01-30T15:46:38Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:48:12Z Xach: another thing to consider is multiple dists, some of which are not from quicklisp.org
2021-01-30T15:49:02Z phoe: yes - I think that a dist may be secure or insecure, where insecure is the default and the only thing that currently exists
2021-01-30T15:49:37Z Xach: phoe: i have to go, but let's set up a separate chat location for this, i want to discuss further
2021-01-30T15:49:39Z phoe: and secure basically requires the new PGP stuff to fire before Quicklisp installs anything.
2021-01-30T15:49:42Z phoe: Xach: oh right
2021-01-30T15:49:46Z phoe: we should do it in #quicklisp
2021-01-30T15:50:11Z Xach: phoe: if you'd like to see what's in place now, see the gpg branch of quicklisp-client and quicklisp-bootstrap. it works all right for what it does but i don't think it can be the initial solution.
2021-01-30T15:50:26Z Xach: it's an initial proof of concept at best
2021-01-30T15:50:30Z phoe: Xach: fwiw, I think you should join #quicklisp
2021-01-30T15:50:31Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:50:32Z phoe: and, sure, I'll take a look
2021-01-30T15:50:47Z Xach quit (Changing host)
2021-01-30T15:50:47Z Xach joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:51:02Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:53:04Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T15:55:14Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T15:56:25Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T15:57:48Z Josh_2: Xach: I have created 4 rectangles with Vecto, how do I colour each one individually?
2021-01-30T15:59:31Z Xach: Josh_2: set the color and use FILL-PATH after finishing each rectangle
2021-01-30T15:59:58Z Xach: FILL-PATH fills the current path with the fill color and clears the path
2021-01-30T16:00:11Z Xach: "clears" in the sense that further paint ops do not refer to it
2021-01-30T16:00:48Z Xach: you can have multiple independent subpaths but they all share the same graphics parameters when painting (fill color, stroke color, stroke size, join style, etc)
2021-01-30T16:01:09Z Xach: "independent" in the sense that they do not have to touch each other - they are separated by move-tos
2021-01-30T16:01:32Z Josh_2: I tried the fill-path after each construction
2021-01-30T16:02:09Z Josh_2: I will try it again
2021-01-30T16:03:05Z Xach: Josh_2: did you also set the fill color?
2021-01-30T16:03:41Z Josh_2: Okay yes It's working
2021-01-30T16:03:49Z Josh_2: Thanks Xach
2021-01-30T16:05:14Z Xach: glad to hear it
2021-01-30T16:05:15Z zulu-inuoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T16:05:19Z Xach: share the pics when you are done!!
2021-01-30T16:05:42Z zulu-inuoe joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:07:07Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T16:07:39Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:09:46Z Josh_2: Will do
2021-01-30T16:10:05Z mseddon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T16:10:06Z mseddon8 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:10:11Z seeg1234 quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-30T16:10:22Z CrazyEddy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T16:10:35Z seeg1234 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:10:39Z sveit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T16:11:14Z alanz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T16:11:37Z sveit joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:12:05Z alanz joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:12:35Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T16:13:44Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T16:16:55Z didi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T16:17:29Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:18:48Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:18:53Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:23:28Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:25:43Z gutter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T16:27:42Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:30:04Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T16:32:37Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:36:11Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T16:36:17Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:36:57Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:37:34Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-30T16:40:20Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:40:56Z drbluefall joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:41:06Z drbluefall quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-30T16:42:54Z mmmattyx joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:45:57Z wInNy is now known as winny
2021-01-30T16:46:18Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:51:53Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:58:35Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-30T16:58:52Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:01:30Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:02:04Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T17:02:36Z Grauwolf quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-30T17:04:10Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-30T17:05:57Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:08:04Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T17:11:16Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:14:32Z galex-713 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
2021-01-30T17:15:28Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-30T17:15:35Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T17:18:08Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:23:01Z elflng joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:24:40Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:26:50Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:28:56Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T17:29:05Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T17:29:22Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:29:43Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-30T17:31:22Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:31:38Z francogrex joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:31:57Z francogrex: Hi all, what's new in common lisp these days?
2021-01-30T17:33:50Z ck_: A new bench got put in the workshop just today
2021-01-30T17:34:18Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver)
2021-01-30T17:34:25Z beach: francogrex: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf
2021-01-30T17:34:42Z IPmonger quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-30T17:34:45Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:34:54Z beach: francogrex: Work in progress, of course.
2021-01-30T17:35:41Z caesarsalad joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:35:54Z francogrex: beach: nice
2021-01-30T17:36:18Z francogrex: ck_: what new bench, elaborate, links?
2021-01-30T17:36:20Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:36:29Z ck_: francogrex: http://sbcl.org/news.html#2.1.1
2021-01-30T17:36:40Z francogrex: beach: developement on SICL going on ok?
2021-01-30T17:36:54Z beach: francogrex: Yes, slowly, but fine.  Thank you.
2021-01-30T17:37:14Z Anonymous_ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:37:44Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T17:38:59Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T17:43:26Z luckless_ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:43:30Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:44:06Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-30T17:46:18Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-30T17:47:44Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T17:47:55Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:48:18Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:48:51Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-30T17:49:05Z phoe: 3/1
2021-01-30T17:49:07Z phoe: oops
2021-01-30T17:50:30Z IPmonger joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:51:06Z francogrex: beach: is SICL planned to target all/most platforms?
2021-01-30T17:51:49Z jmercouris: I don't see why it couldn't target all platforms
2021-01-30T17:51:58Z jmercouris: if it can bootstrap from SBCL, it should at least be able to target those
2021-01-30T17:52:25Z jmercouris: what I am not certain about is whether UIOP would work on all platforms in that case, or how that would work
2021-01-30T17:52:33Z jmercouris: mostly because I don't know enough about UIOP
2021-01-30T17:54:23Z Bike: sicl has to generate code for the machine and operating system. the fact sbcl runs on, like, sparc, doesn't mean that sicl will be able to, unless beach or someone writes a code generator for sparc.
2021-01-30T17:54:57Z Bike: i don't think uiop does much machine specific stuff... i could be wrong though. more like OS specific and lisp implementation specific is my impression
2021-01-30T17:56:24Z aeth_ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:57:03Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T17:57:43Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2021-01-30T17:58:01Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T17:58:28Z phoe: what machine specific stuff would need to be done by UIOP though?
2021-01-30T17:58:31Z jmercouris: Bike: I don't understand, can you please explain
2021-01-30T17:58:46Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T17:58:56Z jmercouris: Bike: if SICL can be bootstrapped by SBCL on a Sparc machine, why couldn't SICL run on that machine?
2021-01-30T17:59:15Z phoe: someone needs to generate sparc assembly
2021-01-30T17:59:20Z phoe: who is it gonna be?
2021-01-30T17:59:31Z phoe: what is it gonna be?
2021-01-30T17:59:36Z jmercouris: phoe: isn't that only necessary for saving and reloading images?
2021-01-30T17:59:56Z phoe: depends on your definition of "bootstrapped"
2021-01-30T18:00:07Z Bike: lisp implementations compile stuff to machine code all the time.
2021-01-30T18:00:22Z phoe: if you mean the current way SBCL is run, which is that it compiles to portable CL that is then executed on SBCL, then sure, it is going to work even now
2021-01-30T18:00:23Z Bike: When you C-c C-k a file with sbcl you are making sbcl produce code for your machine.
2021-01-30T18:00:53Z phoe: if you mean that SICL runs without an underlying SBCL, then something needs to turn (defun square (x) (* x x)) into a vector of raw bytes for the SPARC CPU to execute
2021-01-30T18:01:04Z jmercouris: right, but as long as you have an SBCL
2021-01-30T18:01:07Z jmercouris: you can run SICL there
2021-01-30T18:01:12Z jmercouris: that's what I was thinking
2021-01-30T18:01:12Z phoe: what do you mean by "run"?
2021-01-30T18:01:15Z Bike: But the idea is that sicl is its own implementation.
2021-01-30T18:01:23Z jmercouris: that depends on the SBCL compiler...?
2021-01-30T18:01:25Z jmercouris: :-D
2021-01-30T18:01:26Z Bike: Once you've built it with sbcl or whatever, it runs by itself. It no longer uses sbcl.
2021-01-30T18:01:36Z phoe: jmercouris: we have a definition mismatch
2021-01-30T18:01:45Z jmercouris: hm
2021-01-30T18:01:52Z Bike: In the same way that when you compile a program with gcc, you can then run it on a machine that does not have gcc installed.
2021-01-30T18:01:57Z phoe: you want to run SICL on top of SBCL on top of sparc, or SICL on top of sparc with no SBCL in the middle?
2021-01-30T18:02:14Z jmercouris: I don't care how it runs as long as there is a SICL REPL
2021-01-30T18:02:23Z phoe: oh, then the former could in theory be attempted even now
2021-01-30T18:02:24Z jmercouris: and I believe it can be achieved via SBCL on any machine SBCL can be ran on
2021-01-30T18:02:28Z francogrex: SICL is to be an independent implementation no needing SBCL etc... that's my undersanding
2021-01-30T18:02:29Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T18:02:46Z phoe: AFAIK you can run it hosted on SBCL at the moment.
2021-01-30T18:02:52Z jmercouris: why jettison SBCL though
2021-01-30T18:02:59Z phoe: because of the performance penalty
2021-01-30T18:03:03Z jmercouris: I see
2021-01-30T18:03:14Z phoe: I remember beach mentioning there's a 3-4x performance hit when running SICL hosted on top of SBCL
2021-01-30T18:03:20Z jmercouris: ah, that is significant
2021-01-30T18:03:27Z jmercouris: I was thinking of SBCL as a sort of LISP VM
2021-01-30T18:03:27Z phoe: compared to SBCL native-compiled code, that is.
2021-01-30T18:03:30Z jmercouris: kind of like the JVM
2021-01-30T18:03:53Z phoe: more like SICL VM
2021-01-30T18:03:57Z jmercouris: yeah
2021-01-30T18:03:58Z phoe: which is only possible because SICL is meant to execute on top of portable CL
2021-01-30T18:03:58Z jmercouris: SICL VM
2021-01-30T18:04:14Z jmercouris: was it designed that way for any technical reason?
2021-01-30T18:04:50Z jmercouris: was it because beach likes LISP and wanted to program his LISP in LISP?
2021-01-30T18:04:55Z jmercouris: because that would be a reason I can imagine
2021-01-30T18:05:02Z phoe: more like it was meant to be bootstrapped from portable CL
2021-01-30T18:05:38Z phoe: so if your Lisp implementation is a standard Common Lisp program, then I guess that you can run it as a Common Lisp program
2021-01-30T18:06:01Z jmercouris: I see
2021-01-30T18:06:07Z phoe: and generate intermediate code that is standard Common Lisp and is then compiled by the underlying compiler into whatever further representation it does.
2021-01-30T18:06:07Z jmercouris: here's what I am missing
2021-01-30T18:06:20Z jmercouris: why can't SICL have like a 'compatibility' mode or something
2021-01-30T18:06:26Z jmercouris: where it always uses SBCL
2021-01-30T18:06:34Z jmercouris: sure, it will be way slower, but you could use SICL specific features
2021-01-30T18:06:43Z jmercouris: on ANY machine that can run SBCL
2021-01-30T18:06:49Z francogrex: jmercouris: it was explained: SICL is planned to be independet
2021-01-30T18:07:04Z jmercouris: I get that, but they are not mutally exclusive things
2021-01-30T18:07:06Z francogrex: not needing SBCL
2021-01-30T18:07:15Z jmercouris: s/mutally/mutually
2021-01-30T18:07:31Z phoe: I guess that it could, sure, why not
2021-01-30T18:07:38Z jmercouris: also, 3x4x slower than SBCL doesn't sound too bad for light computation
2021-01-30T18:07:44Z phoe: as a CL-on-CL implementation for people who actually need it
2021-01-30T18:08:14Z jmercouris: is SBCL bootstrapped from SBCL too?
2021-01-30T18:08:15Z jmercouris: or from C?
2021-01-30T18:08:19Z jmercouris: or from ASM?
2021-01-30T18:08:25Z jmercouris: or from ???
2021-01-30T18:08:32Z phoe: the kernel is written in C, the rest is bootstrappable from any conforming CL implementation
2021-01-30T18:08:46Z jmercouris: so that makes SBCL very portable then
2021-01-30T18:08:50Z jmercouris: that's a good design
2021-01-30T18:08:54Z scymtym: SBCL needs a C compiler and a CL compiler (not necessarily SBCL) to build itself
2021-01-30T18:08:57Z phoe: that's the whole idea behind SBCL
2021-01-30T18:09:11Z phoe: and AFAIK the reason why it originally forked from CMUCL
2021-01-30T18:09:32Z jmercouris: OK so let's say we have a new system
2021-01-30T18:09:34Z jmercouris: called Tomato
2021-01-30T18:09:39Z jmercouris: and we have a C compiler for Tomato
2021-01-30T18:09:39Z phoe: an OS, you mean?
2021-01-30T18:09:40Z scymtym: but in contrast to SICL, the SBCL code is written with restrictions to make this bootstrapping work
2021-01-30T18:09:45Z jmercouris: sure, an OS
2021-01-30T18:09:55Z phoe: Tomato OS with a C compiler, yes
2021-01-30T18:09:55Z jmercouris: how would we port SBCL to Tomato?
2021-01-30T18:10:01Z jmercouris: we just have to have a C compiler?
2021-01-30T18:10:12Z francogrex: jmercouris: no
2021-01-30T18:10:18Z jmercouris: that's what I was afraid of
2021-01-30T18:10:23Z jmercouris: you also mentioned a CL implementation
2021-01-30T18:10:27Z jmercouris: well, who writes that proto CL implementation
2021-01-30T18:10:31Z jmercouris: would you use ECL for example?
2021-01-30T18:10:36Z Bike: sbcl can cross compile itself, i think
2021-01-30T18:10:40Z phoe: the OS-specific parts need to be added to SBCL source code, if any
2021-01-30T18:10:55Z Bike: so you have a machine where sbcl can run, and you use it to build an sbcl appropriate for tomato, and then move it to the tomato, and there you go
2021-01-30T18:11:04Z jmercouris: I see
2021-01-30T18:11:07Z phoe: like, all calls into the OS and its standard library
2021-01-30T18:11:19Z phoe: and then cross-compile as Bike said.
2021-01-30T18:11:21Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:11:35Z jmercouris: cross compilation is still such a mystery to me
2021-01-30T18:11:37Z jmercouris: I really don't get it
2021-01-30T18:11:38Z phoe: or you can try building ECL on Tomato OS (because you have a C library!) and use it to compile SBCL on the target machine without cross compiling at all.
2021-01-30T18:11:51Z francogrex: forget al that.
2021-01-30T18:11:56Z jmercouris: phoe: yeah, so you can use ECL to bootstrap to TomatOS
2021-01-30T18:12:30Z phoe: cross compilation is actually easy to grasp - your compiler can generate SPARC code even if it runs on x86_64.
2021-01-30T18:12:41Z phoe: it's all ultimately vectors of bytes after all.
2021-01-30T18:12:48Z jmercouris: how can my compiler know what SPARC looks like?
2021-01-30T18:12:49Z francogrex: the essential thing is that it generates specific machine code for execution
2021-01-30T18:12:54Z phoe: jmercouris: uhhhh
2021-01-30T18:12:58Z Bike: because your compiler was written by someone who knows sparc?
2021-01-30T18:13:00Z jmercouris: will it translate MV into some other thing
2021-01-30T18:13:01Z phoe: because it has a code generator backend for it?
2021-01-30T18:13:02Z Bike: i'm not sure i understand the question.
2021-01-30T18:13:04Z jmercouris: I see
2021-01-30T18:13:05Z Bike: What is MV?
2021-01-30T18:13:10Z jmercouris: mv like the command
2021-01-30T18:13:20Z phoe: because that's what compilers do?
2021-01-30T18:13:50Z Bike: I mean, okay, let's take a step back here. What is a compiler? A program that transforms programs in one language into programs in another language.
2021-01-30T18:13:50Z jmercouris: OK
2021-01-30T18:13:55Z phoe: you can teach your compiler what the SPARC assembly looks like and teach it to turn your intermediate representation into that assembly
2021-01-30T18:14:01Z jmercouris: So far, so good
2021-01-30T18:14:06Z phoe: and then who cares what architecture or OS your compiler runs on
2021-01-30T18:14:16Z phoe: it's just a program that pops out SPARC assembly
2021-01-30T18:14:20Z scymtym: jmercouris: note that you initially asked about a different operating system, so what people described above assumed the target CPU was already supported
2021-01-30T18:14:29Z francogrex: jmercouris: sbcl doesn't spontaneously for example "run" on ARM, someone had to work for make it generate and execute ARM specific machine code, it's a lot of work
2021-01-30T18:14:53Z jmercouris: francogrex: shouldn't that be the job of the person who wrote the C Compiler?
2021-01-30T18:14:58Z phoe: you can run it on x86, you can run it on MIPS, on SPARC, on ARM, on a piece of paper, whatever - the result is a pile of bytes that also happens to contain valid SPARC code.
2021-01-30T18:15:01Z francogrex: no
2021-01-30T18:15:03Z phoe: jmercouris: what does C have to do with this?
2021-01-30T18:15:06Z jmercouris: why should the SBCL team at all care about the instruction set of the processor
2021-01-30T18:15:09Z phoe: we're compiling Lisp code
2021-01-30T18:15:13Z francogrex: we are not talking C compiler. SBCL doesn't use C compiler
2021-01-30T18:15:15Z Bike: Because SBCL generates code in that instruction set?
2021-01-30T18:15:20Z jmercouris: AH!
2021-01-30T18:15:22Z jmercouris: SBCL generates ASM
2021-01-30T18:15:25Z jmercouris: I get it inow
2021-01-30T18:15:31Z phoe: jmercouris: because SBCL does *NOT* need the C compiler to generate machine code
2021-01-30T18:15:33Z Bike: It doesn't generate C code which is then translated by a c compiler, no. (ECL does that)
2021-01-30T18:15:34Z phoe: so it needs to know how to do it.
2021-01-30T18:15:42Z jmercouris: it doesn't use some low level intermediate representation?
2021-01-30T18:15:46Z phoe: it does
2021-01-30T18:15:48Z jmercouris: it LITERALLY makes ASM?
2021-01-30T18:15:51Z phoe: but that representation is independent of C
2021-01-30T18:16:00Z Bike: I mean, the end point is it makes actual machine code, not even just assembly.
2021-01-30T18:16:02Z jmercouris: so every time a new instruction set comes out, they have to make some translation layer for it?
2021-01-30T18:16:04Z phoe: jmercouris: try #'DISASSEMBLE
2021-01-30T18:16:06Z Bike: Yes.
2021-01-30T18:16:16Z francogrex: indeed
2021-01-30T18:16:17Z jmercouris: OK, wait a seocnd
2021-01-30T18:16:20Z jmercouris: maybe I'm getting confused here
2021-01-30T18:16:23Z jmercouris: CLASP useses LLVM?
2021-01-30T18:16:27Z Bike: it does, yes.
2021-01-30T18:16:29Z francogrex: absoltely confused
2021-01-30T18:16:33Z jmercouris: that's probably what I was thinking of
2021-01-30T18:16:40Z scymtym: for every combination of instruction set and operating system, to be precise
2021-01-30T18:16:57Z gareppa joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:16:58Z Bike: Yes, for clasp, we don't generate machine code. We generate LLVM-IR, which LLVM can then translate into a variety of machine code formats.
2021-01-30T18:17:05Z jmercouris: right
2021-01-30T18:17:10Z jmercouris: so as long as LLVM runs, you can use CLASP
2021-01-30T18:17:21Z Bike: It's unfortunately more complicated than that, but ideally, yes.
2021-01-30T18:17:23Z jmercouris: that is a much smarter way than SBCL I must say
2021-01-30T18:17:30Z francogrex: and FYI, C compiler like GCC isn't generic it also required a lot of work to port it to different archs
2021-01-30T18:17:34Z Bike: Well, it has the pros and cons of outsourcing.
2021-01-30T18:17:34Z phoe: smarter for some definition of smart though
2021-01-30T18:17:50Z jackdaniel: ecl (or, to be precise, kyoto common lisp) was designed to target C compiler precisely to avoid the hassle of porting the implementation to each Arch x OS combination
2021-01-30T18:17:51Z jmercouris: sure, GCC is a ugly monolith, or so I've been told
2021-01-30T18:17:52Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:17:54Z Bike: It means we don't have to write the last compilation step and can rely on other people doing it, but on the other hand, those other people might do stupid things.
2021-01-30T18:18:10Z jmercouris: they might, but probably won't
2021-01-30T18:18:23Z jmercouris: and if they do, you can potentially fix their stupidity layer
2021-01-30T18:18:35Z phoe: depending on LLVM introduces an overall giant dependency in form of LLVM
2021-01-30T18:18:54Z jmercouris: I guess that could be a problem on embedded systems, for example
2021-01-30T18:18:56Z francogrex: jmercouris: you always can even from lisp implementations like SBCL, you ca go low level
2021-01-30T18:18:56Z Bike: they have done stupid things, and they're harder for us to fix because we have to convince other people that they are problems that need fixing
2021-01-30T18:19:28Z Bike: well, "stupid" might be a little strong for most of it. Sometimes they just have done things that don't match well with what we're doing but work great for what they're doing.
2021-01-30T18:19:41Z jmercouris: as an old proverb once said
2021-01-30T18:19:46Z jmercouris: "stupidity is in the eye of the beholder"
2021-01-30T18:19:59Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:20:08Z Bike: the other applicable proverb is "if you want it done right, do it yourself"
2021-01-30T18:20:18Z jmercouris: anyways, can you please continue explaining cross compilation
2021-01-30T18:20:22Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T18:20:31Z phoe: a compiler is basically a pure function
2021-01-30T18:20:36Z jmercouris: X -> Y
2021-01-30T18:20:42Z jmercouris: where X is 1 form and Y is another
2021-01-30T18:20:52Z phoe: X is a Lisp form like (lambda (...) ...) and Y is a vector of bytes
2021-01-30T18:20:56Z jmercouris: OK
2021-01-30T18:21:04Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:21:17Z jmercouris: wait a seocnd
2021-01-30T18:21:28Z jmercouris: is cross compilation just targetting a different compilation architecture?
2021-01-30T18:21:31Z phoe: yes
2021-01-30T18:21:39Z jmercouris: ah, then I do know this
2021-01-30T18:21:42Z jmercouris: the terminology is just messing with me
2021-01-30T18:21:51Z phoe: a different combination of CPU, OS, flags, optimization settings, and all the stuff
2021-01-30T18:21:52Z francogrex: not a big fan of cross compilation... jfyi
2021-01-30T18:21:54Z jmercouris: it is called cross compilation because we compile for a different machine?
2021-01-30T18:21:58Z spal quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-30T18:22:02Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T18:22:15Z francogrex: yes and it fraught with problems
2021-01-30T18:22:15Z jmercouris: what is the "cross" part of it? exactly?
2021-01-30T18:22:55Z francogrex: you use x86 to compile a programl than runs on ARM
2021-01-30T18:23:02Z francogrex: for example
2021-01-30T18:23:07Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T18:23:08Z jmercouris: right, I can get that
2021-01-30T18:23:10Z pyc_ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:23:39Z pyc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T18:23:40Z spal joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:23:51Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2263#2263
2021-01-30T18:24:01Z phoe: been a while since I have made ascii art
2021-01-30T18:24:35Z francogrex: phoe: nice though
2021-01-30T18:24:44Z phoe: you can even see the cross in there!
2021-01-30T18:25:14Z jmercouris: phoe: 11
2021-01-30T18:25:16Z jmercouris: :-D
2021-01-30T18:32:02Z travv0 left #lisp
2021-01-30T18:37:48Z Cthulhux quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T18:38:05Z Cthulhux joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:38:08Z guaqua quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T18:38:17Z guaqua joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:39:32Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host)
2021-01-30T18:39:32Z Cthulhux joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:41:18Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:45:43Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T18:46:42Z Ratattatat joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:52:50Z rumbler31 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T18:53:35Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
2021-01-30T18:53:44Z francogrex left #lisp
2021-01-30T18:57:06Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T18:59:51Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:00:54Z nij: What would you do in lisp to replace functionalities offered by `sed`? I'm writing a script that will (un)comment certain lines in `/etc/hosts`, and I couldn't think of a better way than sed..
2021-01-30T19:02:37Z phoe: nij: if you want regular expressions, then cl-ppcre
2021-01-30T19:02:39Z shka_: nij: perhaps combination of regexs and optima?
2021-01-30T19:02:45Z shka_: or trivia
2021-01-30T19:02:51Z shka_: optima is obsolete
2021-01-30T19:03:07Z phoe: or just split the file into lines and parse them that way
2021-01-30T19:03:26Z shka_: or call sed from lisp :-)
2021-01-30T19:03:54Z nij: phoe: split into lines, parse, edit, and rewrite?
2021-01-30T19:04:00Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:04:29Z phoe: yes
2021-01-30T19:06:40Z nij: cl-ppcre + phoe's method => neat
2021-01-30T19:08:42Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T19:13:03Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:14:27Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:19:49Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:20:10Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:21:25Z aeth: yeah, idk about sed, but you can write Perl-like code in CL just by doing READ-LINE in a LOOP
2021-01-30T19:21:29Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:21:37Z aeth: Not the most efficient way to process text, of course.
2021-01-30T19:22:51Z aeth: The hardest part is that if you know CL, you'll start trying to think about how to optimize things better when it's literally just supposed to be a throwaway script.
2021-01-30T19:23:30Z scymtym: http://www.nongnu.org/txr/txr-pattern-language.html may be a good source of inspiration
2021-01-30T19:25:20Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T19:25:44Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T19:27:31Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:33:15Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-30T19:35:35Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-01-30T19:38:36Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-30T19:39:19Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:42:32Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-30T19:43:35Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T19:47:04Z sgithens quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T19:47:41Z grfn quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T19:47:42Z p_l quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T19:47:43Z stylewarning quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-30T19:47:54Z sgithens joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:48:05Z p_l joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:48:06Z grfn joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:48:13Z stylewarning joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:51:06Z phireh joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:51:40Z nij quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T19:51:57Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:52:01Z nij quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-30T19:54:37Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:58:41Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-30T19:58:58Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T20:00:08Z Alfr joined #lisp
2021-01-30T20:01:02Z Christ0pher quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-30T20:01:34Z Christ0pher joined #lisp
2021-01-30T20:03:39Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T20:07:18Z rogersm quit
2021-01-30T20:07:44Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T20:07:51Z didi` joined #lisp
2021-01-30T20:09:45Z Christ0pher is now known as KeyboardWorrier
2021-01-30T20:11:24Z gum quit (Changing host)
2021-01-30T20:11:25Z gum joined #lisp
2021-01-30T20:12:00Z McParen left #lisp
2021-01-30T20:12:40Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T20:16:50Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T20:26:56Z amk joined #lisp
2021-01-30T20:33:08Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T20:36:38Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T20:38:16Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T20:42:23Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T20:42:59Z _death: nice.. I look at planet lisp and see a new blog added (mgr) with a post about lisp & m5stack.. just a few hours ago I got one :D
2021-01-30T20:43:19Z didi` left #lisp
2021-01-30T20:43:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T20:45:42Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-30T20:46:11Z _death: oh, I have an m5stick.. guessing it'd be similar
2021-01-30T20:48:35Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T20:54:11Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-30T20:55:35Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-30T20:57:36Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T21:04:59Z nullman quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T21:05:43Z nullman joined #lisp
2021-01-30T21:10:46Z Guest7312 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T21:12:34Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-30T21:18:39Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-30T21:19:46Z seok joined #lisp
2021-01-30T21:43:51Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-30T21:45:16Z seok quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-30T21:53:04Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-30T21:54:29Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:00:26Z Josh_2: Xach: I have called (set-rgb-fill 145 216 247) which is a bright blue and I'm getting a solid white
2021-01-30T22:00:56Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/wGqmGbp.png
2021-01-30T22:01:07Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:01:38Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:02:17Z Josh_2: (set-rgb-fill 0 0 250) works just fine and I get a solid blue
2021-01-30T22:02:26Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-30T22:04:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T22:08:53Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:12:23Z skapate joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:13:19Z skapate left #lisp
2021-01-30T22:13:20Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T22:16:43Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T22:16:53Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T22:19:41Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T22:20:49Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-30T22:22:39Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:22:51Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-30T22:26:01Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:27:00Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T22:27:16Z jmercouris: Josh_2: what about other blues, do they work in your machine?
2021-01-30T22:27:29Z jmercouris: Is it only that specific blue or range of blues?
2021-01-30T22:28:11Z Inoperable quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-30T22:30:35Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T22:33:24Z Inoperable joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:40:01Z Josh_2: I have only tested that specific colour
2021-01-30T22:41:29Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:45:25Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T22:46:38Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:50:23Z Guest7312 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T22:52:15Z marusich joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:53:06Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:55:55Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp
2021-01-30T22:59:22Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:01:54Z Grauwolf joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:03:36Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-30T23:09:42Z luckless_ quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-30T23:10:28Z seok joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:10:36Z seok quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-30T23:10:42Z luckless_ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:12:45Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-30T23:16:30Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:20:34Z jaesch joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:21:19Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T23:27:14Z jaesch quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T23:29:38Z jaesch joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:29:51Z jaesch quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-30T23:31:44Z lottaquestions joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:32:18Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:32:23Z deltab quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-30T23:34:24Z deltab joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:38:10Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-30T23:41:06Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-30T23:43:20Z amk quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-30T23:43:28Z amk joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:49:00Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:53:08Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-30T23:57:25Z euandreh quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-30T23:57:27Z uehhtnefa^ joined #lisp
2021-01-30T23:58:32Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-31T00:00:56Z charles`: Do you ever find a new piece of software and get sad that it isn't "made with Lisp"?
2021-01-31T00:04:48Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T00:04:55Z no-defun-allowed: No, I don't really find new software :)
2021-01-31T00:05:03Z no-defun-allowed: *frequently, not really
2021-01-31T00:08:49Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-31T00:09:08Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-31T00:16:35Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T00:18:02Z davd33 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-31T00:19:59Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T00:22:36Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T00:23:11Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T00:24:19Z frodef quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T00:24:35Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-31T00:24:54Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T00:25:01Z mrios22 quit (Quit: mrios22)
2021-01-31T00:25:12Z mrios22` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T00:27:12Z pve quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-31T00:35:48Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T00:40:11Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T00:43:27Z Xach: Josh_2: what does the code look like?
2021-01-31T00:44:54Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-31T00:46:03Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-31T00:46:41Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T00:49:21Z Josh_2: it was just (rectangle .. ) (set-rgb-fill .. ) (fill-path )
2021-01-31T00:50:21Z Josh_2: one sec
2021-01-31T00:50:56Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T00:51:00Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-31T00:51:13Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-31T00:51:33Z aeth: what API is that?
2021-01-31T00:52:02Z aeth: anything that starts with set- that isn't an FFI wrapper probably should be a SETF instead, if that's your API
2021-01-31T00:52:26Z aeth: that is, idiomatic CL doesn't really have getters and setters in the name, it just has a (setf foo) and a (foo)
2021-01-31T00:52:51Z Josh_2: It's not mine, It's Xach's vector library
2021-01-31T00:52:53Z aeth: ah
2021-01-31T00:53:22Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T00:54:04Z Josh_2: Xach: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2264#2264 this is the offending part of the code
2021-01-31T00:54:10Z Josh_2: well the bottom part
2021-01-31T00:56:56Z Josh_2: I can send you the entire block of code if you want
2021-01-31T00:58:11Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:00:00Z Josh_2: if I have a scale from -10 to +10 how can I translate that into a value between 70 and 670? ie 0 would be 370
2021-01-31T01:00:12Z Xach: math!
2021-01-31T01:00:23Z Josh_2: I thought so
2021-01-31T01:02:58Z Josh_2: Any specific equation :P
2021-01-31T01:04:04Z White_Flame: + the difference of the midpoint, * the difference in range
2021-01-31T01:04:27Z Xach: Josh_2: you have to deal with scaling and translation
2021-01-31T01:04:30Z White_Flame: well, * the ratio to expand to the new range
2021-01-31T01:05:28Z Xach: i'll look at the color thingy
2021-01-31T01:05:49Z pranavats quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:06:16Z Josh_2: White_Flame: wah?
2021-01-31T01:06:23Z White_Flame: wah what?
2021-01-31T01:06:26Z Josh_2: what?
2021-01-31T01:07:16Z White_Flame: consider the 2 ranges to be a midpoint and the length outward in both directions
2021-01-31T01:07:55Z White_Flame: normalize to -1.0 to +1.0
2021-01-31T01:08:00Z Xach: Josh_2: ah, i have it. the fill range is 0.0 to 1.0, not 256
2021-01-31T01:08:05Z White_Flame: so in the first scale, -1.0 = -1.0, +1.0 = +10
2021-01-31T01:08:07Z Xach: i should have a check-type in there, sorry.
2021-01-31T01:08:13Z White_Flame: in the 2nd scale, -1.0 = 70, +1.0 = 670
2021-01-31T01:08:31Z White_Flame: both of those scales have a single addition and single multplication
2021-01-31T01:08:59Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:09:20Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:09:25Z White_Flame: if you remember your interpolation equations, it's exactly the same thing
2021-01-31T01:09:46Z Josh_2: I don't
2021-01-31T01:10:01Z White_Flame: you're some percent down the -10..+10 segment, and want to be the same percent down the 70..670 segment
2021-01-31T01:10:38Z aeth: lerp...
2021-01-31T01:10:39Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_interpolation
2021-01-31T01:10:44Z aeth: there are others, of course
2021-01-31T01:10:56Z euandreh joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:11:15Z White_Flame: or just y=mx+b
2021-01-31T01:11:25Z White_Flame: with x = -1 to +1
2021-01-31T01:11:45Z White_Flame: and 2 equations, one where y ends up -10 to +10, and another where y ends up 70 to 670
2021-01-31T01:11:56Z White_Flame: (or, x = 0 to 1, even easier)
2021-01-31T01:13:03Z White_Flame: y = 20*x - 10 would be the 1st line.  You can see that 20 is the range, and 0 is the midpoint
2021-01-31T01:13:23Z White_Flame: it's the very basics of algebra
2021-01-31T01:13:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:14:10Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:14:33Z aeth: I'd caution against using the basics of algebra in numerical stuff because floats only approximate reals.
2021-01-31T01:14:41Z aeth: alexandria:lerp already exists, though
2021-01-31T01:14:53Z White_Flame: ah, cool
2021-01-31T01:15:07Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:15:26Z White_Flame: well, these basics of algebra can be expressed with rationals, assuming starting from integers as pixel values
2021-01-31T01:15:29Z pranavats joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:15:33Z aeth: there is quite a debate over which algebraically-equivalent way to LERP to use, which is why alexandria:lerp has a huge comment
2021-01-31T01:15:37Z aeth: for a one liner
2021-01-31T01:15:48Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:15:52Z White_Flame: but all graphical stuff that use matrices are all floats anyway
2021-01-31T01:16:10Z White_Flame: and the precision is fine for the limited number of transformations that happen in most visualizations
2021-01-31T01:17:01Z aeth: White_Flame: alexandria:lerp uses 1.0, not 1.0f0, so you can just use 'RATIONAL as your *read-default-float-format* before loading alexandria if you want rationals :-)
2021-01-31T01:17:18Z Josh_2: There is no :thonk: emote, but that is basically my reaction
2021-01-31T01:17:33Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:17:40Z White_Flame: TIL
2021-01-31T01:18:14Z aeth: This is actually fairly problematic. I didn't notice the 1.0 before. Maybe it's new.
2021-01-31T01:18:31Z aeth: It means that whichever float that returns is a side effect of a compile time global variable.
2021-01-31T01:18:39Z White_Flame: ah, alexandria doesn't do the scaling between 2 ranges
2021-01-31T01:18:43Z White_Flame: only the forward lerp
2021-01-31T01:18:50Z Josh_2: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2021-01-31T01:19:04Z Josh_2: I appreciate your explanation White_Flame but I still dont understand
2021-01-31T01:19:20Z White_Flame: Josh_2: if you have the number 3, what percent is it on the -10 to +10 scale?
2021-01-31T01:19:25Z White_Flame: where 0% is -10, and 100% is +10?
2021-01-31T01:19:47Z Josh_2: 65?
2021-01-31T01:19:52Z White_Flame: the result of that percentage is then plugged into lerp
2021-01-31T01:19:59Z White_Flame: to get that % of the way from 70 to 670
2021-01-31T01:20:24Z White_Flame: and how did you calculate 65%?  plug that into a function
2021-01-31T01:22:03Z White_Flame: 3 out of -10 to +10, get the minimum to zero, so 13 out of 0 to +20
2021-01-31T01:22:23Z White_Flame: get the maximum to 1 (or 100%), so 0.65 out of 0 to 1
2021-01-31T01:22:56Z Xach: Josh_2: https://github.com/xach/octree/blob/70c5ba6a5ddbf6d05540dad561e9ceffe6255da7/hex-art.lisp#L63 has a function that might help a trifle
2021-01-31T01:24:05Z u0_a61 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:24:09Z u0_a61 is now known as Wezzzl
2021-01-31T01:24:14Z Wezzzl is now known as Wezl
2021-01-31T01:24:16Z Xach: (funcall (range-mapper -10 10 70 670) 0) => 70.0
2021-01-31T01:25:30Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:25:36Z Xach: oops
2021-01-31T01:25:43Z Xach: it was 370.0!!
2021-01-31T01:25:51Z White_Flame: (defun calc-percent-of-range (val min max) (/ (- val min) (- max min)))
2021-01-31T01:26:13Z White_Flame: those 2 steps encoded
2021-01-31T01:26:33Z White_Flame: (though without clamping to the [0,100] percent range)
2021-01-31T01:27:05Z Josh_2: Xach: thanks. White_Flame sorry I didnd't understand :( my maths skills are non existent
2021-01-31T01:27:09Z White_Flame: but often with these sorts of things you don't want to clamp
2021-01-31T01:27:36Z White_Flame: well, that was the minimal explanation I can think of, assuming algebra is tackled :)
2021-01-31T01:27:46Z White_Flame: take my function, and put the result into alexandria:lerp with your 70-670 range
2021-01-31T01:27:53Z White_Flame: or use what xach posted
2021-01-31T01:28:16Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-31T01:28:16Z Josh_2: I think I got to like 9/10th grade maths on Khan Academy
2021-01-31T01:28:18Z White_Flame: that range-mapper returns a function that will perform the scaling for you, with clamping
2021-01-31T01:28:33Z Josh_2: I messed around and missed all the foundations when I joined secondary ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2021-01-31T01:28:52Z White_Flame: well, graphics programming is chocked full of this sort of stuff
2021-01-31T01:29:11Z Josh_2: fortunately I rarely do graphics programming
2021-01-31T01:29:13Z White_Flame: so it really helps to take the time be able to internalize what's going on
2021-01-31T01:31:04Z no-defun-allowed was thinking that Khan Academy JavaScript has a poorly named MAP function which is approximately LERP which is from Processing
2021-01-31T01:34:00Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:34:16Z Josh_2: Xach: here is an example of the images I am using your library to generate https://imgur.com/onBuPWr.png
2021-01-31T01:34:53Z Xach: Cool (?)
2021-01-31T01:34:58Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-31T01:35:02Z Josh_2: You asked me to share the pics
2021-01-31T01:35:04Z snits_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:35:57Z Xach: i appreciate it
2021-01-31T01:36:46Z Josh_2: 73 lines lul
2021-01-31T01:37:36Z snits joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:37:52Z Josh_2: gotta add a couple things but thats pretty much it
2021-01-31T01:38:23Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:38:49Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:38:58Z White_Flame: btw, your grid lines are spanning a half-pixel on each side of a pixel boundary
2021-01-31T01:39:08Z White_Flame: it would look cleaner if the lines were contained within a single pixel
2021-01-31T01:39:20Z White_Flame: and you wouldn't get those white dots on the intersections either
2021-01-31T01:45:19Z Josh_2: White_Flame: https://imgur.com/9CKocgV.png ?
2021-01-31T01:45:39Z Josh_2: Looks better when I set the line to 2px instead of 1 and lower the opacity
2021-01-31T01:45:41Z White_Flame: lines are still 2 pixels wide for some reason
2021-01-31T01:45:43Z White_Flame: ah, k
2021-01-31T01:50:38Z PlusEffect joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:50:59Z rme quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:51:38Z gendl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:51:38Z mpontillo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:52:14Z jmercouris quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:52:44Z gendl joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:52:54Z mpontillo_ joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:53:23Z theruran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-31T01:53:34Z jmercouris joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:54:39Z gabiruh quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-31T01:55:01Z gabiruh joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:55:12Z theruran joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:57:10Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T01:58:37Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-31T01:58:45Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:01:50Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T02:04:52Z pfdietz:  Ok.  I now have COVER doing coverage checkpoint and rollback.   Next step: automatic generation of minimized coverage-increasing test inputs.
2021-01-31T02:04:53Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-31T02:05:01Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-31T02:05:10Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:05:33Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:05:56Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:06:35Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-31T02:06:47Z dbotton_ joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:09:42Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-31T02:11:38Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:15:02Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:16:58Z Nilby joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:17:35Z mrios22` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T02:18:09Z phireh quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T02:19:05Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T02:19:12Z dbotton_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-31T02:19:17Z PlusEffect: I'm having trouble with SBCL 2.1.x on my Lenovo IdeaPad 3 Chromebook; sb-posix compilation unit failures
2021-01-31T02:21:31Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-31T02:24:12Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-31T02:25:37Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T02:26:11Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:26:12Z edgar-rft joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:30:41Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T02:34:15Z ``Erik joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:35:52Z mathrick_ is now known as mathrick
2021-01-31T02:37:59Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:38:29Z mrcom quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-31T02:39:56Z logand`` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:42:11Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T02:43:16Z logand` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T02:48:25Z PlusEffect quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T02:49:39Z wsinatra joined #lisp
2021-01-31T02:59:14Z luckless_ quit (Quit: luckless_)
2021-01-31T03:00:51Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T03:03:23Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-31T03:04:56Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-31T03:05:23Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T03:07:54Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T03:07:58Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-31T03:12:29Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-31T03:13:05Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T03:13:26Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-31T03:21:11Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T03:23:24Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-31T03:25:14Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T03:26:45Z Codaraxis__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T03:27:38Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T03:28:06Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-31T03:33:59Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-31T03:36:52Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T03:38:46Z dbotton quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T03:41:14Z zulu-inuoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T03:41:23Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T03:41:54Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-31T03:43:30Z emacsomancer joined #lisp
2021-01-31T03:44:39Z casual_friday joined #lisp
2021-01-31T03:45:41Z dbotton quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T03:51:13Z mmmattyx quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-31T03:51:41Z casual_friday quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-31T03:56:28Z catt joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:01:39Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:02:17Z Alfr_ joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:03:00Z KREYREEN quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T04:03:23Z KREYREEN joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:03:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-31T04:04:24Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T04:05:12Z beach: francogrex: I will probably leave most platforms up to people who have access to them and who would like to see SICL run on those platforms.
2021-01-31T04:05:43Z beach: jmercouris: The platforms that SBCL runs on have no impact on the SICL code generator.
2021-01-31T04:05:59Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T04:06:58Z beach: jmercouris: SBCL will no longer be present when the SICL binary runs.
2021-01-31T04:07:57Z beach: jmercouris: And SICL does not depend on SBCL in any way whatsoever.  It can use any ANSI conforming Common Lisp implementation that can also run CLOSER-MOP.
2021-01-31T04:13:21Z beach: jmercouris: SICL is meant to be a clean-slate implementation, so I want my own version of the garbage collector, of generic dispatch, of the optimization techniques we have designed, etc.  I don't want  to depend on any other implementation.
2021-01-31T04:16:33Z beach: I guess most of what I just said was already said several hours ago.
2021-01-31T04:16:43Z beach should read up more before answering. 
2021-01-31T04:18:35Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:20:27Z Bike: it's more authoritative coming from you anyway.
2021-01-31T04:22:32Z beach: Maybe.  But y'all did a good job explaining how a compiler works.
2021-01-31T04:22:38Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T04:23:20Z Bike: thank you
2021-01-31T04:25:00Z beach: I can't help wondering why jmercouris is interested in the subject, yet hasn't watched my presentations "Creating a Common Lisp implementation". :)
2021-01-31T04:25:26Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:27:07Z beach: phoe's description of a compiler is not quite true for Common Lisp, as I explain in those videos.  A C compiler starts with an empty global environment (which is why there are all those #include things) whereas a Common Lisp compiler essentially needs a running Common Lisp system.
2021-01-31T04:27:48Z beach: Er, it needs the existing global environment of a running Common Lisp system, I mean.
2021-01-31T04:29:11Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:29:56Z pilne joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:30:42Z PlusEffect joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:31:13Z dbotton quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T04:32:45Z PlusEffect: I think I figured out how to compile SBCL on my Chromebook!  Just had to comment out some tests that were not relevant on my platform.
2021-01-31T04:32:47Z aeth: A lot of general compiler stuff doesn't quite fit with CL. Especially the huge focus in most compilers on parsing.
2021-01-31T04:33:32Z aeth: PlusEffect: so it fails some tests?
2021-01-31T04:33:36Z no-defun-allowed: Is it?
2021-01-31T04:34:36Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:34:37Z Bike: old "compiler theory" is mostly parsing, yeah.
2021-01-31T04:34:46Z beach: Yes, most compiler books have a large part about parsing.  That's why I use Muchnick's book most of the time.
2021-01-31T04:34:58Z Bike: modern (since, i don't know, several decades) optimizing compilers have lots of their own theory of course
2021-01-31T04:35:06Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:35:09Z aeth: afaik, undergrads mostly still focus on the parsers, though.
2021-01-31T04:35:11Z no-defun-allowed: I thought most of the compiler complexity was in IR, and only crappy interpreter tutorials take far too long on parsing -- oh, okay.
2021-01-31T04:35:15Z aeth: I didn't take a compiler class, though.
2021-01-31T04:35:15Z PlusEffect: It fails stat.2 and stat.4, I think, because I'm probably using those security modules that are mentioned in the comments.  The root directory appearing writable to others somehow?
2021-01-31T04:35:24Z Bike: no, i mean, the actual complexity of an optimizing compiler is definitely the optimizing part, yes.
2021-01-31T04:35:25Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:35:50Z no-defun-allowed: My favourite coauthor had to write a "compiler" from whatever language (call this one Foo) to JS, and it was very much Foo source -> Foo AST -> JavaScript source
2021-01-31T04:35:50Z Nilby: It will be a fun day when I have to start adding #+sicl
2021-01-31T04:36:33Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: An introduction to compilers, e.g. online or in a book, could be 50% or more about parsing... but obviously the optimization part is how you turn a 5 week compiler project into an infinite week compiler project.
2021-01-31T04:36:34Z beach: Nilby: I'll let you know. :)
2021-01-31T04:37:09Z Nilby: beach: Thanks. I appreciate your diligence.
2021-01-31T04:37:45Z beach: It used to be the case that parsing was a large part of the time a compiler took, probably because not many optimizations were performed.  So parsing technology became a big deal.
2021-01-31T04:38:21Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:38:32Z no-defun-allowed: I wish they'd just provide e.g a YACC file, and get the damn thing over with, but there's also the tendency to stretch the material out by introducing one construct, then the grammar, then the evaluation rules, etc. But I'm not bored enough to rant about random stuff I read on the Internet again.
2021-01-31T04:38:50Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:38:59Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T04:39:22Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T04:39:25Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T04:39:26Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T04:40:10Z aeth: I really don't know how any individuals get past the parser part. It's time consuming. Even Scheme-in-CL took me a while and it's Scheme. In CL.
2021-01-31T04:40:19Z aeth: If I wrote a C++ compiler (in CL of course) I don't think I'd ever get past parsing
2021-01-31T04:40:46Z aeth: More languages need s-expressions. Not worth the effort to do other things.
2021-01-31T04:40:51Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:41:23Z no-defun-allowed: I was going to say that someone actually wrote 41 thousand words on writing an interpreter without an evaluator, but they had in fact written an interpreter, and it was hidden by all the crap on parsing.
2021-01-31T04:42:13Z Bike: did you use a parser generator
2021-01-31T04:42:20Z mrcom joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:42:37Z aeth: Bike: the parser generator was myself
2021-01-31T04:42:38Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Depending on your definition of parsing, doesn't C++ parsing range between annoying and not context free and outright undecidable? I got away with writing a few dispatch characters to fake Scheme syntax ([, ], #t and #f) though.
2021-01-31T04:42:44Z Bike: there's your problem
2021-01-31T04:42:58Z aeth: only 1000 lines though
2021-01-31T04:43:08Z aeth: it was just hard to get the number syntax right
2021-01-31T04:43:12Z Bike: you might as well be translating the scheme into assembly yourself too
2021-01-31T04:43:36Z Bike: and yeah, C++ parsing is bad.
2021-01-31T04:43:51Z Bike: C parsing is bad too but not as off the wall about it
2021-01-31T04:43:52Z no-defun-allowed: There was a lot of bikeshedding there on writing the parser without a generator, yes.
2021-01-31T04:44:10Z aeth: spaces in type names is a terrible idea
2021-01-31T04:44:36Z no-defun-allowed: (deftype |Do elaborate.| () 't)
2021-01-31T04:44:38Z aeth: Well, in CL it's actually fine, although the style is bad. Just |foo bar|
2021-01-31T04:45:12Z no-defun-allowed: OpenCL gives you ulong (in place of unsigned long) and friends, possibly so they don't have to write unsigned long4 for the vector type.
2021-01-31T04:45:57Z dbotton: Why does (merge-pathnames #P"/Users/dbotton/common-lisp/clog/static-files/" "/tutorial/tut-11.html") results in the tutorial portion of the path disappearing ie => #P"/Users/dbotton/common-lisp/clog/static-files/tut-11.html"
2021-01-31T04:46:10Z dbotton: (Sorry for interrupting)
2021-01-31T04:47:16Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T04:47:32Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:47:44Z no-defun-allowed: merge-pathnames doesn't really join paths together, from my reading of the CLHS: "Constructs a pathname from pathname by filling in any unsupplied components with the corresponding values from default-pathname and default-version."
2021-01-31T04:47:47Z no-defun-allowed: clhs merge-pathnames
2021-01-31T04:47:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_merge_.htm
2021-01-31T04:49:20Z no-defun-allowed: This begs the question of what function joins paths together, but in this case, you might be better served by ASDF:SYSTEM-RELATIVE-PATHNAME.
2021-01-31T04:49:25Z dbotton: Is there a way to make that work? Or should just switch to string?
2021-01-31T04:49:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T04:50:35Z no-defun-allowed: e.g (asdf:system-relative-pathname :netfarm "bunnies.asc") on my system returns #P"/home/hayley/netfarm-projects/netfarm/Code/bunnies.asc". You could use something like (asdf:system-relative-pathname :clog "static-files/tutorial/tut-11.html") perhaps.
2021-01-31T04:52:03Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-31T04:52:13Z dbotton: This example is within clog but most would be arbitrary places in the system
2021-01-31T04:52:37Z dbotton: So don't think that would work
2021-01-31T04:54:14Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:54:19Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:58:00Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T04:59:02Z pankajsg joined #lisp
2021-01-31T05:00:06Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe UIOP:SUBPATHNAME then.
2021-01-31T05:00:12Z no-defun-allowed: (uiop:subpathname "/tmp/" "aaa/bbb.ccc") ⇒ #P"/tmp/aaa/bbb.ccc"
2021-01-31T05:00:19Z catt quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T05:00:29Z no-defun-allowed: I found that by looking at the implementation of SYSTEM-RELATIVE-PATHNAME.
2021-01-31T05:01:43Z dbotton: I'll take a look
2021-01-31T05:01:45Z aeth: maybe this? (uiop:merge-pathnames* (make-pathname :directory `(:absolute "foo" "bar" "baz")) "whatever.html")
2021-01-31T05:01:58Z aeth: you can then replace "baz" with ,tutorial
2021-01-31T05:02:11Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T05:03:05Z dbotton: That would mean I would have to tell users of my api to convert their path's to lists..
2021-01-31T05:04:17Z no-defun-allowed: That call to MAKE-PATHNAME will return in #P"/foo/bar/baz/", which isn't really helpful in any case.
2021-01-31T05:04:32Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, no, I didn't read it all.
2021-01-31T05:05:01Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: well, you'd , or ,@ depending on the problem but it seems like it doesn't give the API that dbotton wants
2021-01-31T05:08:26Z dbotton: subpathname sort of works, it seems would have have to remove leading / if exist
2021-01-31T05:08:38Z dbotton: Which is reasonable
2021-01-31T05:09:48Z terpri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T05:10:38Z terpri joined #lisp
2021-01-31T05:11:13Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, a path starting with / is an absolute pathname.
2021-01-31T05:14:55Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-31T05:15:45Z aeth: It looks like subpathname might be the intended way to solve this problem
2021-01-31T05:15:59Z aeth: (I mean, in UIOP's API)
2021-01-31T05:16:55Z dbotton: Thank you :)
2021-01-31T05:17:34Z aeth: I think I'm going to update something in some of my code that solves the problem, but not with uiop:subpathname, so probably not as robustly
2021-01-31T05:17:53Z aeth: it either fixes unknown bugs, creates unknown bugs, or both
2021-01-31T05:18:38Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T05:18:56Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp
2021-01-31T05:19:09Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T05:19:57Z catt joined #lisp
2021-01-31T05:21:28Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T05:21:53Z thmprover quit (Quit: For He Was Great of Heart)
2021-01-31T05:22:36Z saganman joined #lisp
2021-01-31T05:23:04Z dbotton: I wouldn't have noticed it in mine if had not by chance tried merge-pathnames with a subdirectory following the file to merge on
2021-01-31T05:23:14Z saganman: Morning beach and everyone
2021-01-31T05:25:47Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T05:33:38Z PlusEffect quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T05:35:16Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T05:35:41Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T05:38:05Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T05:39:12Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T05:43:23Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-31T05:43:47Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T05:54:00Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
2021-01-31T06:03:28Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T06:09:35Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T06:11:52Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-31T06:14:36Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-31T06:14:56Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T06:17:11Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp
2021-01-31T06:17:17Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-31T06:20:59Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T06:34:39Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-31T06:39:14Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-31T06:40:25Z krid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T06:42:36Z r3m joined #lisp
2021-01-31T06:47:01Z waleee-cl quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-31T06:51:35Z luckless quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-31T06:52:01Z luckless joined #lisp
2021-01-31T06:54:16Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T06:56:59Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T06:58:05Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-31T06:58:17Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-31T06:58:25Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-31T06:58:41Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T06:59:54Z Nikotiini joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:02:30Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:06:05Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T07:10:24Z albusp joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:10:47Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T07:11:03Z albusp quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T07:12:25Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T07:12:33Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:15:34Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:17:43Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-31T07:23:17Z haom joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:23:37Z haom quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T07:26:04Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:29:38Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:32:59Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T07:37:57Z gutter quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T07:38:15Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:38:30Z gutter quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T07:38:42Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:41:08Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T07:45:46Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:51:24Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:53:59Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:55:18Z andreyorst quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T07:57:28Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-31T07:58:03Z ralt joined #lisp
2021-01-31T08:00:36Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T08:02:45Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T08:03:46Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-31T08:04:05Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T08:09:35Z ex_nihilo:  /quit
2021-01-31T08:09:55Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-31T08:10:21Z elflng joined #lisp
2021-01-31T08:14:07Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T08:16:47Z elflng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T08:22:12Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-31T08:22:37Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-31T08:23:29Z pyc_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T08:23:40Z pyc joined #lisp
2021-01-31T08:25:59Z orivej quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T08:26:26Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-31T08:31:12Z elflng joined #lisp
2021-01-31T08:31:33Z dbotton quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-31T08:43:54Z shka_ joined #lisp
2021-01-31T08:44:10Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-31T08:47:46Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-31T08:48:16Z autosnek_ joined #lisp
2021-01-31T08:48:59Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T08:49:06Z autosnek_ quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T09:08:23Z hendursaga joined #lisp
2021-01-31T09:10:57Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-31T09:11:16Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T09:11:17Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-31T09:15:19Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T09:17:08Z surabax joined #lisp
2021-01-31T09:18:53Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-31T09:19:47Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T09:23:26Z kini quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T09:23:36Z krkini joined #lisp
2021-01-31T09:28:20Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T09:31:44Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T09:34:53Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp
2021-01-31T09:37:30Z anticrisis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T09:39:40Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T09:43:45Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T09:46:23Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T09:47:52Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-31T09:51:02Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T09:53:03Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-31T09:55:55Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T09:59:50Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T10:00:34Z uehhtnefa^ quit
2021-01-31T10:00:58Z sauvin joined #lisp
2021-01-31T10:01:31Z theothor` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T10:01:40Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T10:06:32Z theothor` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-31T10:08:11Z theothor` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T10:09:58Z hnOsmium0001 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-31T10:11:27Z theothor` quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T10:11:49Z sauvin_ joined #lisp
2021-01-31T10:12:21Z liberliver joined #lisp
2021-01-31T10:14:27Z sauvin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-31T10:18:08Z sauvin_ is now known as Sauvin
2021-01-31T10:18:17Z jmercouris: beach: I figured that out after explanation from everyone else :-D
2021-01-31T10:20:52Z beach: Yes.  Sorry for not reading up first.
2021-01-31T10:22:03Z beach: jmercouris: I recommend you watch those videos though.
2021-01-31T10:22:17Z beach: You seem to be interested in knowing how it is done.
2021-01-31T10:26:45Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T10:27:23Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp
2021-01-31T10:29:11Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz)
2021-01-31T10:29:46Z beach: ... or not, I guess.
2021-01-31T10:35:48Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-31T10:35:58Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-31T10:37:28Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T10:42:49Z pfdietz quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-31T10:48:13Z cage_ joined #lisp
2021-01-31T10:58:49Z Inline joined #lisp
2021-01-31T11:00:06Z vegansbane696 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat)
2021-01-31T11:01:50Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T11:02:58Z davd33 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T11:06:47Z davd33 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T11:09:19Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T11:14:25Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T11:15:45Z skapata joined #lisp
2021-01-31T11:21:05Z imode quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T11:29:26Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T11:29:54Z vegansbane696 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T11:30:40Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-31T11:35:04Z glz joined #lisp
2021-01-31T11:36:11Z glz quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T11:36:47Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-31T11:37:48Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-31T11:39:45Z lotuseater quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T11:46:36Z lotuseater joined #lisp
2021-01-31T11:56:55Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T12:00:42Z hylisper joined #lisp
2021-01-31T12:01:19Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-31T12:02:22Z hylisper quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T12:05:45Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T12:10:46Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T12:10:59Z stoneglass joined #lisp
2021-01-31T12:12:46Z random-nick joined #lisp
2021-01-31T12:17:10Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-31T12:19:31Z VincentVega: Just got meself (gensym) to return two #:G0's nearly in a row. Thinking it has something to do with that reproducability rationale that I read about in one of the sbcl bugs. Currently working out a minimal example (which is proving to be a tad tricky), any insights would be appreciated...
2021-01-31T12:20:04Z VincentVega: (or foresights)
2021-01-31T12:22:02Z phoe: is it inside setf expansions?
2021-01-31T12:22:11Z VincentVega: yes
2021-01-31T12:22:25Z phoe: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1873556
2021-01-31T12:22:37Z VincentVega: well, it was in a let g (gensym) at first, does it make a difference?
2021-01-31T12:22:41Z VincentVega: let me read that
2021-01-31T12:22:48Z phoe: not really, it's just the gensym name
2021-01-31T12:24:10Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-31T12:26:41Z VincentVega: Interesting. Can't say I really understand this bug to say for sure that this is the same one at this point, but yeah, it does look like it got the same roots. Thanks for the link.
2021-01-31T12:28:20Z phoe: well, you could try going to #sbcl and post your problem, maybe also link this issue if it's related
2021-01-31T12:29:44Z VincentVega: Sure, sounds like a good idea, will get this mve done now.
2021-01-31T12:29:56Z phoe: don't know if it will get you anywhere, but might be worth a try
2021-01-31T12:30:06Z VincentVega: yeah : )
2021-01-31T12:35:22Z heisig: I recently promised I would start a collection of 'Common Lisp tweaks'.  Well, here it is: https://github.com/marcoheisig/common-lisp-tweaks
2021-01-31T12:35:30Z heisig: Feedback is most welcome.
2021-01-31T12:36:55Z heisig: I intend to grow this list whenever I hear about a new trick on IRC, so newcomers won't have to dig through decades of IRC logs to find them.
2021-01-31T12:38:55Z zacts joined #lisp
2021-01-31T12:47:21Z eden joined #lisp
2021-01-31T12:48:40Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-31T12:56:34Z andreyorst quit (Quit: andreyorst)
2021-01-31T12:56:50Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-31T12:58:08Z gzj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T12:58:29Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:04:18Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:07:56Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-31T13:09:23Z pve joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:13:03Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-31T13:16:28Z dbotton: Is there a way to get a clicki account? Seems like registration doesn't work
2021-01-31T13:19:34Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:21:41Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:24:12Z perrier-jouet quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T13:25:33Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T13:35:20Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:37:35Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T13:40:31Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T13:40:38Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:43:18Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:45:37Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-31T13:45:49Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:46:10Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T13:46:57Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:48:42Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:49:56Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T13:51:19Z jmercouris: beach: yes, I’m interested in compiler things
2021-01-31T13:51:27Z jmercouris: Which videos?
2021-01-31T13:51:49Z beach: "Creating a Common Lisp implementation" from the online Lisp meeting.
2021-01-31T13:51:54Z jmercouris: One thing I’ve been thinking about is that a defmethod is like a guard for a function call
2021-01-31T13:52:14Z jmercouris: Which online lisp meeting? The one run by phoe?
2021-01-31T13:52:19Z beach: Yes.
2021-01-31T13:52:46Z jmercouris: Ok I’ll look it up
2021-01-31T13:52:53Z nij: beach: thanks for the pointer
2021-01-31T13:53:01Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-31T13:53:04Z nij: if there's cl videos i'd like to watch
2021-01-31T13:53:08Z nij: but youtube never tells me all
2021-01-31T13:54:15Z jmercouris: https://youtu.be/kMivYV0pEMw
2021-01-31T13:54:43Z beach: I would start with part 1.
2021-01-31T13:54:56Z jmercouris: Part 1
2021-01-31T13:54:59Z jmercouris: https://youtu.be/Wa81OJnlsoI
2021-01-31T13:55:15Z jmercouris: Ok watching now
2021-01-31T13:56:22Z nij: i've added them to my download que
2021-01-31T13:57:36Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T13:57:42Z iskander- joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:58:17Z hiroaki joined #lisp
2021-01-31T13:59:41Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-31T14:01:23Z phoe: oh boy it's been a while since the last meeting
2021-01-31T14:01:39Z beach: Yes, loke was supposed to do one.
2021-01-31T14:02:04Z phoe: I got a few offers, but none of them fully materialized yet
2021-01-31T14:02:08Z beach: ... about Climaxima.
2021-01-31T14:05:25Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T14:09:52Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-31T14:11:13Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-31T14:11:47Z jmercouris: Well so far you’ve convinced me not to do it in C lol
2021-01-31T14:12:00Z beach: That's the point. :)
2021-01-31T14:13:45Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T14:14:28Z iskander joined #lisp
2021-01-31T14:15:13Z iskander| joined #lisp
2021-01-31T14:15:15Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-31T14:16:00Z jmercouris: I had been asking about the unique set of basic operators about a year ago i think
2021-01-31T14:16:05Z iskander- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T14:16:15Z beach: Yes, and there is no unique set.
2021-01-31T14:16:15Z jmercouris: At the time I couldn’t articulate what I was trying to describe, but that is it!
2021-01-31T14:16:17Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-31T14:16:25Z jmercouris: That’s rather unfortunate
2021-01-31T14:17:45Z beach:  The paper by Baker is good.  He explains various ways of implementing Common Lisp special operators using other Common Lisp special operators, and often the other way around too.
2021-01-31T14:18:13Z rgherdt joined #lisp
2021-01-31T14:18:40Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-31T14:18:42Z jmercouris: I’ll put that on my list
2021-01-31T14:19:03Z jmercouris: One thing that I think about a lot is maybe it would have been better if the default was doubly linked lists in lisp
2021-01-31T14:19:10Z iskander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T14:19:14Z jmercouris: I think it would improve performance for so many operations
2021-01-31T14:19:41Z nij: yeah. why isn't that the default?
2021-01-31T14:19:44Z beach: Instead of the existing lists?
2021-01-31T14:19:46Z heisig: jmercouris: Noooo!
2021-01-31T14:20:04Z beach: jmercouris: That would break almost every aspect of the semantics of large parts of Common Lisp.
2021-01-31T14:21:14Z heisig: If you are smart, every operation on lists is already O(1).  And singly-linked lists help create beautiful recursive programs.
2021-01-31T14:23:24Z jmercouris: If you are smart?
2021-01-31T14:23:39Z jmercouris: I think there are some algorithms that would be simpler to write with doubly linked lists
2021-01-31T14:23:47Z jmercouris: Perhaps I am not smart enough. :-D
2021-01-31T14:24:12Z beach: jmercouris: If you have (defparameter *l0* (list 'a 'b 'c ...)) then (defparameter *l1* (cons 1 *l0*)) and (defparameter *l2* (cons 2 *l0*)), would then (rest *l1*) and (rest *l2*)  be EQ with doubly linked lists?
2021-01-31T14:24:16Z andreyorst quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T14:25:04Z jmercouris: Ambiguous :-D
2021-01-31T14:25:28Z heisig: jmercouris: Insertion at the front is O(1).  Removal from the front is O(1).  All you have to do is turn the list the right way round.
2021-01-31T14:25:48Z heisig: That works 95% of the time.
2021-01-31T14:25:51Z jmercouris: Sometimes you want to look back without remembering stuff behind you
2021-01-31T14:26:08Z jmercouris: beach: I see the problem, yes
2021-01-31T14:26:20Z nij: Has anyone thought of making "notes" on discussion on #lisp, as the conversation here has been logged.
2021-01-31T14:26:36Z jmercouris: We are a tribal pre writing community
2021-01-31T14:26:47Z jmercouris: We store everything in the oral traditions of our elders
2021-01-31T14:26:47Z nij: Namely, now we are discussing why singly-linked list is the default. Maybe there could be a way to add a summary quickly that refers to this part of conversation?
2021-01-31T14:27:11Z jmercouris: You may consult with the oracle minion for answers to your deepest questions
2021-01-31T14:27:20Z nij: As time goes on, we can make a referrable and usable lisp knowledge database.
2021-01-31T14:28:01Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-31T14:28:41Z beach: nij: While there are a few subjects with recurring questions, singly-linked vs doubly-linked lists as the default in Lisp is not one of them.
2021-01-31T14:28:54Z heisig: jmercouris: As for looking behind - if you only need to look a fixed number of list elements behind you, you an scan the list and keep track of the last K elements you just visited.
2021-01-31T14:29:49Z jmercouris: Yeah, I know, but that require another data structure
2021-01-31T14:30:29Z jmercouris: Im just brainstorming here
2021-01-31T14:30:36Z jmercouris: It could and probably is a bad idea
2021-01-31T14:31:52Z ebrasca joined #lisp
2021-01-31T14:32:29Z jmercouris: beach: very nice video, I learned a lot
2021-01-31T14:32:41Z jmercouris: It answered quite some questions I’ve had for a while
2021-01-31T14:32:49Z jmercouris: Thanks for taking the time to make it
2021-01-31T14:36:57Z krkini quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T14:38:16Z kini joined #lisp
2021-01-31T14:40:03Z beach: jmercouris: Sure.
2021-01-31T14:40:08Z beach: Glad you liked it.
2021-01-31T14:50:47Z nij: beach: yeah, but it'd be nice if we can make summaries and annotations easily..
2021-01-31T14:51:01Z nij: and, as time goes on, a compilation of summaries.
2021-01-31T14:51:11Z Bike joined #lisp
2021-01-31T14:51:27Z beach: It's a big task, but feel free to start it if you like.
2021-01-31T15:03:54Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-31T15:12:42Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T15:14:02Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-31T15:20:18Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T15:25:50Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T15:27:06Z madage joined #lisp
2021-01-31T15:36:09Z villanella joined #lisp
2021-01-31T15:43:54Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving)
2021-01-31T15:48:01Z nij` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T15:48:21Z Josh_2 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T15:48:31Z nij` quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T15:48:51Z nij` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T15:48:54Z Josh_2: When using formatter, what do I pass as the stream arg to have it output as a string?
2021-01-31T15:49:04Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T15:49:08Z phoe: nil, I guess?
2021-01-31T15:49:10Z Josh_2: I tried that
2021-01-31T15:49:26Z phoe: oh wait
2021-01-31T15:49:28Z phoe: clhs formatter
2021-01-31T15:49:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_format.htm
2021-01-31T15:49:36Z phoe: this binds the standard output
2021-01-31T15:49:48Z nij` left #lisp
2021-01-31T15:50:03Z phoe: so you'd need to w-o-t-s it
2021-01-31T15:50:40Z Nilby: You don't pass it to formatter, you pass it when you call the result of formatter.
2021-01-31T15:50:45Z Josh_2: use a stream and stream to string it?
2021-01-31T15:52:08Z phoe: (with-output-to-string (s) (funcall (formatter "~A ~A") s 42 24)) ;=> "42 24"
2021-01-31T15:54:19Z Xach: SBCL will translate constant format strings into formatter automagically
2021-01-31T15:54:23Z Xach: (or equivalent)
2021-01-31T15:54:37Z Josh_2: ah right
2021-01-31T15:57:20Z pfdietz: I had a situation that looked like (format nil (if <form> <string1> <string2>) ...), which I think runs faster if the IF parts were strength reduced with calls to formatter.
2021-01-31T15:58:19Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-31T15:58:23Z gutter quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T15:59:23Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T16:08:13Z gutter joined #lisp
2021-01-31T16:09:21Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-31T16:19:56Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-31T16:22:25Z pfdietz quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-31T16:27:46Z Guest7312 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T16:29:38Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-31T16:31:23Z krid joined #lisp
2021-01-31T16:35:33Z jprajzne joined #lisp
2021-01-31T16:40:07Z Posterdati: hi
2021-01-31T16:40:33Z Posterdati: so cffi + gsll are broken agai under OpenBSD + SBCL :) fine!
2021-01-31T16:42:11Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-31T16:49:38Z Guest7312 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-31T17:02:07Z gzj joined #lisp
2021-01-31T17:04:47Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-31T17:06:25Z gzj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T17:10:46Z h4ck3r9696 left #lisp
2021-01-31T17:11:08Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-31T17:15:47Z stoneglass quit (Quit: stoneglass)
2021-01-31T17:15:48Z [d]: <a​gumonkey#6435> jmercouris how is the browser going
2021-01-31T17:16:46Z phoe: agumonkey: where is this discord bot bridged to?
2021-01-31T17:17:53Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-31T17:18:16Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-31T17:18:59Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.)
2021-01-31T17:19:13Z Guest7312 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T17:20:32Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-31T17:22:33Z Gromboli joined #lisp
2021-01-31T17:23:18Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T17:25:49Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-31T17:27:47Z imode joined #lisp
2021-01-31T17:33:51Z frodef quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T17:36:16Z rogersm: Is there any portable advise implementation
2021-01-31T17:36:17Z rogersm: ?
2021-01-31T17:36:27Z frodef joined #lisp
2021-01-31T17:37:06Z Xach: rogersm: no
2021-01-31T17:37:33Z phoe: actually https://github.com/szos/cl-advice
2021-01-31T17:37:41Z Xach: yes
2021-01-31T17:38:02Z rogersm: thx
2021-01-31T17:41:23Z brethland joined #lisp
2021-01-31T17:42:27Z brethland quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T17:42:33Z phoe: also https://github.com/lisp-mirror/budden-tools/tree/master/cl-advice
2021-01-31T17:42:44Z phoe: seems a bit more complete
2021-01-31T17:43:35Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T17:51:26Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-31T17:54:04Z zaquest joined #lisp
2021-01-31T17:57:12Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-31T17:57:56Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T17:58:25Z VincentVega quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2021-01-31T18:00:19Z jonatack joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:03:46Z Lycurgus joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:07:57Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-31T18:08:02Z rogersm: I think first one is enough for my needs
2021-01-31T18:18:49Z luckless quit (Quit: luckless)
2021-01-31T18:18:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T18:19:01Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:19:13Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2021-01-31T18:20:00Z cods joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:21:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T18:21:30Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:22:31Z andreyorst is now known as andreyorst_
2021-01-31T18:23:55Z SpaceIgor2075 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:27:21Z waleee-cl joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:27:25Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-31T18:29:40Z v0|d joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:31:32Z andreyorst joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:31:48Z andreyorst_ quit (Quit: andreyorst_)
2021-01-31T18:33:16Z jmercouris: The browser is going well, please use the #nyxt channel for discussion about it :-)
2021-01-31T18:34:22Z hnOsmium0001 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:38:17Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:39:10Z cracauer joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:39:32Z luni joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:39:34Z devon joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:40:40Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...)
2021-01-31T18:40:42Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T18:40:59Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:41:58Z Gromboli8 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:43:46Z Gromboli quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T18:43:46Z Gromboli8 is now known as Gromboli
2021-01-31T18:44:28Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T18:44:34Z aartaka_d joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:44:39Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-31T18:45:44Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T18:45:49Z villanella quit (Quit: villanella)
2021-01-31T18:46:02Z gioyik joined #lisp
2021-01-31T18:47:43Z orivej joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:08:22Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T19:15:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T19:15:47Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:17:06Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:20:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T19:20:43Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:23:27Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-31T19:25:07Z nij joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:27:03Z nij: `$ sbcl` opens an sbcl repl in terminal. What should I do to launch another repl that connects to the same running instance?
2021-01-31T19:27:38Z nij: A way to virtually do this is to use swank.. but that's another layer. I hope there's a way to do it directly. (c.f. https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/4oe9me/is_it_possible_to_connect_to_a_repl/)
2021-01-31T19:28:02Z nij: s/that's another layer/that requires another layer, thought standard,/
2021-01-31T19:28:03Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T19:28:44Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:29:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T19:29:49Z phoe: hmmm
2021-01-31T19:29:52Z phoe: I have no idea
2021-01-31T19:30:29Z phoe: in theory there could be a sbcl-specific way that starts a socket that accepts netcat connections and spawns a new thread with a new REPL for each client
2021-01-31T19:30:39Z phoe: but I don't know how to achieve that, maybe #sbcl would have a hack for that
2021-01-31T19:30:42Z phoe: I'd just use swank though.
2021-01-31T19:30:48Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:30:48Z nij: I had that, but it's very bareboned.
2021-01-31T19:31:02Z nij: Lemme post it.. hold on.
2021-01-31T19:31:24Z nij: https://bpa.st/H7MPE
2021-01-31T19:31:44Z nij: The problem with this is that.. on the second instance, I don't get the full experience of a nice repo.
2021-01-31T19:32:10Z nij: phoe: How about this. With the first sbcl launched in a terminal, how to connect to it from SLIME?
2021-01-31T19:32:29Z anticrisis joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:35:58Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T19:35:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T19:36:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:37:06Z phoe: (swank:create-server :port 4005 :dont-close t)
2021-01-31T19:38:02Z phoe: then M-x slime-connect
2021-01-31T19:38:51Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt)
2021-01-31T19:39:50Z jeosol joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:39:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T19:40:18Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:41:00Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:41:08Z nij: Hmm.. ok. I cannot figure out what M-x slime-connect really does.. but guess that's the only clean way so far to do it.
2021-01-31T19:41:24Z nij: I'd need a nice repl anyway at the end, so using slime/sly makes sense.
2021-01-31T19:41:29Z phoe: exactly
2021-01-31T19:42:08Z nij: I'm just overthinking that maybe in the future, I'd need to do this remotely.
2021-01-31T19:42:37Z nij: And having emacs running by root remotely sounds like a dangerous idea.
2021-01-31T19:43:13Z _death: emacs running by root?
2021-01-31T19:43:14Z nij: But anyway.. I'm one more step closer to replacing my shell with a cl-repl ;D
2021-01-31T19:43:42Z nij: _death: Uh, I mean, to run emacs as root.
2021-01-31T19:43:47Z _death: why would you need to do that?
2021-01-31T19:44:07Z nij: I have a curfew daemon that will curfew my computer usage.
2021-01-31T19:44:13Z nij: It needs to be run by root.
2021-01-31T19:44:14Z pfdietz joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:44:41Z nij: (curfew daemon is written in common lisp, and is supposed to be run as a cl thread)
2021-01-31T19:44:44Z luni quit (Quit: Connection closed)
2021-01-31T19:44:53Z nij: I might want to query the daemon or send signals to it
2021-01-31T19:45:01Z nij: Does that make sense @@?
2021-01-31T19:45:58Z _death: if I understand you correctly, the daemon runs as root, and the daemon would have a swank server.. emacs (the client) needs not run as root, though if it connected to a swank server running as root that would indeed be a problem
2021-01-31T19:46:43Z nij: yeah..
2021-01-31T19:47:07Z _death: if you run the daemon as root want to communicate with it, the protocol should likely be very constrained, so you wouldn't send lisp forms to evaluate as-is
2021-01-31T19:48:37Z nij: i see
2021-01-31T19:49:07Z SpaceIgor2075: Hello! Is there a way to setup clojure on windows without powershell?
2021-01-31T19:49:09Z _death: so swank is not a good solution for that and you'd want to write your own mechanism
2021-01-31T19:49:16Z nij: OH no :(
2021-01-31T19:49:42Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: #clojure might be better
2021-01-31T19:50:01Z phoe: you wandered into a lair of Common Lisp programmers
2021-01-31T19:50:04Z nij: Yeah.. if root runs sbcl with a swank port open, anyone that connects to that port has access to the repl, and in practice, the root's privileg.
2021-01-31T19:50:38Z nij: SpaceIgor2075: #lisp is a channel for common-lisp. General lisp questions go to ##lisp, and clojure questions go to #clojure :)
2021-01-31T19:51:18Z SpaceIgor2075: okay
2021-01-31T19:52:32Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:53:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T19:54:16Z shinohai: The thought of Windows + Clojure sounds like better emetic than syrup of ipecac.
2021-01-31T19:55:54Z amb007 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T19:55:56Z nij: _death: Wait.. isn't that weird? If connecting to an sbcl repl means access to the user' (who ran it) privilege, why wouldn't connecting to a swank server require a user password?
2021-01-31T19:56:28Z nij: Otherwise, openning a swank server in local network means anyone here can mess with my machine!
2021-01-31T20:01:34Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-31T20:02:38Z _death: nij: you have a firewall for that.. and on a local network everyone trusts everyone anyway
2021-01-31T20:06:08Z theothornhill quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-31T20:06:19Z _death: nij: if you want to let only authorized clients connect, you can then set up an ssh tunnel, like you may do on the internet
2021-01-31T20:06:33Z frodef` joined #lisp
2021-01-31T20:07:46Z frodef quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T20:08:01Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-31T20:08:09Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-31T20:09:02Z TMA quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T20:09:15Z nij: _death: Do you mean this? 1. setup a localhost swank server. 2. let others connect to localhost via ssh?
2021-01-31T20:09:34Z nij: (I'm still developing my networking knowledge from scratch.. so i might miss some basic stuff.)
2021-01-31T20:09:37Z TMA joined #lisp
2021-01-31T20:10:12Z phoe: bind the socket to 127.0.0.1 - this way it won't get exposed to the wider network and the only way of connecting will be local connections, e.g. a SSH tunnel
2021-01-31T20:10:47Z nij: I see.
2021-01-31T20:10:53Z nij: It's handy. OK.
2021-01-31T20:11:06Z _death: nij: yes, and the port can be filtered so only local access is allowed.. the ssh tunnel can deal with that..
2021-01-31T20:11:15Z nij: But it's still not too handy if I want to allow my running repl *PARTIALLY* to someone else.
2021-01-31T20:11:29Z nij: Is there a package that does that?
2021-01-31T20:11:30Z _death: nij: I wrote https://github.com/death/ssh-tunnels to help with ssh tunnels in emacs
2021-01-31T20:11:41Z _death: nij: what does "partially" mean
2021-01-31T20:12:16Z nij: Hmm.. I'm thinking that every commands sent from that inferior user will be first wrapped with the user's identity.
2021-01-31T20:12:38Z phoe: sandboxing CL is a very hard thing to do
2021-01-31T20:12:41Z nij: And then the command with the identity will be taken care separately.
2021-01-31T20:12:52Z phoe: a basic assumption is that, if someone owns a REPL, they own the whole image.
2021-01-31T20:12:53Z nij: MMmm what does sandboxing here means?
2021-01-31T20:13:10Z phoe: only allowing a user to execute some subset of available commands
2021-01-31T20:13:23Z nij: I see.
2021-01-31T20:13:24Z phoe: basically allowing a possibly hostile user to access your CL image
2021-01-31T20:13:55Z nij: that's not good :(
2021-01-31T20:13:59Z _death: nij: there is no widespread solution.. there are things like cl-evalbot, and a real sandbox could be a virtual machine
2021-01-31T20:14:07Z nij: I want my root launches a repl that can be accessed by root later.
2021-01-31T20:14:15Z phoe: oh, that works
2021-01-31T20:14:27Z nij: phoe: how?
2021-01-31T20:14:38Z phoe: if you want to allow root to access the REPL, then root already has root permissions
2021-01-31T20:14:52Z phoe: the only issue is ensuring that only root has access to it, somehow.
2021-01-31T20:14:54Z nij: rephrase: I want root to open a repl at boot, which can be later accessed by root.
2021-01-31T20:15:19Z nij: Is that possible?
2021-01-31T20:15:29Z phoe: hmmmmm, maybe you could force swank to connect via a unix local socket that is only accessible by root
2021-01-31T20:15:33Z _death: nij: I think there is also a slime pull request that sets up a connection using unix domain sockets.. but I've not looked into it
2021-01-31T20:15:38Z phoe: oh yes, this
2021-01-31T20:16:06Z phoe: ensure that the socket is owned by root:root and has permissions 600 - should be enough
2021-01-31T20:16:34Z _death: also, slime has something with a slime-secret file that may work?
2021-01-31T20:16:41Z phoe: hm
2021-01-31T20:16:45Z phoe: maybe that, too
2021-01-31T20:18:08Z rogersm: In general, there's not a lot of benefits with local unix sockets and some downsides
2021-01-31T20:19:07Z rogersm: and why do you want root to access the REPL?
2021-01-31T20:19:26Z nij: to debug, to inspect, to change local state .. etc
2021-01-31T20:19:43Z nij: I just adore the idea that you are able to inspect all running instances at any time
2021-01-31T20:19:55Z rogersm: the lisp image?
2021-01-31T20:19:57Z nij: including scripts that are run by root
2021-01-31T20:20:04Z rogersm: ah! ok
2021-01-31T20:20:12Z nij: yeah..
2021-01-31T20:20:21Z nij: I can get rid of systemd even with this.
2021-01-31T20:20:24Z rogersm: if you need root access, that's ok
2021-01-31T20:20:30Z nij: (which seems to be hard to debug)
2021-01-31T20:20:35Z nij: and it will be portable.
2021-01-31T20:20:38Z rogersm: if you want to get rid of systemd
2021-01-31T20:20:43Z nij: cuz sbcl takes care of the mess for me
2021-01-31T20:20:48Z rogersm: use a unix-like system without systemd
2021-01-31T20:20:49Z nij: no that's not the only objective
2021-01-31T20:20:51Z rogersm: (they work great)
2021-01-31T20:20:59Z nij: rogersm: i will eventually move to guix+shepherd
2021-01-31T20:21:03Z rogersm: but re-inventing the wheel is extremely difficult
2021-01-31T20:21:04Z nij: but im noobie.. it will take me some time
2021-01-31T20:21:21Z nij: rogersm: yeah im aware of. But that's just one of the objectives.
2021-01-31T20:21:25Z rogersm: my recommendation is to start with some straightforward setup
2021-01-31T20:21:27Z rogersm: easy
2021-01-31T20:21:30Z rogersm: and grow from there
2021-01-31T20:21:31Z _death: basically if you have a ~/.slime-secret file containing something (e.g., a uuid) only those who can read it can respond to swank's challenge
2021-01-31T20:21:35Z nij: The grand goal (of mine) is still to be able to talk to any instance at any time.
2021-01-31T20:21:37Z _death: correctly
2021-01-31T20:22:00Z Nilby: I used to telnet to the lisp machines repl. It wouldn't let me change anything and many functions were restricted, until you authenticated as a user. There was no such thing as root.
2021-01-31T20:22:07Z _death: or rather, know its contents..
2021-01-31T20:22:40Z nij: I think I will try phoe's method first, namely to secure the socket swank creates.
2021-01-31T20:22:56Z nij: By making sure it's at mod 600 and owned by root:root
2021-01-31T20:28:29Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Quit: Bye !)
2021-01-31T20:30:42Z Wezl quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2021-01-31T20:30:46Z theothornhill joined #lisp
2021-01-31T20:32:13Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp
2021-01-31T20:33:10Z theruran quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2021-01-31T20:33:59Z nij: ------
2021-01-31T20:33:59Z nij: Hmm.. I cannot find where the socket is created by (swank:create-server :port 2718).. any idea?
2021-01-31T20:34:21Z Josh_2: How do I parse a float from a string?
2021-01-31T20:34:44Z nij: Josh_2: https://quickref.common-lisp.net/parse-float.html
2021-01-31T20:35:20Z nij: (parse-float "123") => 123.0, 3
2021-01-31T20:35:20Z nij: (parse-float "123.1" :start 1 :radix 5 :type 'double-float) => 13.2d0, 5
2021-01-31T20:37:04Z aartaka joined #lisp
2021-01-31T20:38:48Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T20:39:05Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-31T20:39:23Z Josh_2: Thanks nij
2021-01-31T20:39:34Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T20:39:49Z nij: yw :-)
2021-01-31T20:45:56Z eden quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2021-01-31T20:46:11Z SpaceIgor2075 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-31T20:51:08Z theothornhill quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T20:52:21Z cage_ quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-31T20:52:51Z jdormit[m] is now known as jdormit
2021-01-31T20:58:02Z Wezl joined #lisp
2021-01-31T20:58:16Z frodef` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T21:02:05Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T21:03:11Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-31T21:06:45Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T21:07:23Z rozenglass joined #lisp
2021-01-31T21:09:27Z rozenglass quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T21:10:22Z akoana joined #lisp
2021-01-31T21:13:39Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood)
2021-01-31T21:14:07Z mindCrime joined #lisp
2021-01-31T21:14:26Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T21:17:13Z jasbrg joined #lisp
2021-01-31T21:28:54Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T21:32:35Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-31T21:34:23Z thmprover joined #lisp
2021-01-31T21:37:00Z Josh_2: How can I convert a stream to an octet array?
2021-01-31T21:37:09Z phoe: convert?
2021-01-31T21:37:14Z phoe: you mean read everything off it until EOF?
2021-01-31T21:38:25Z phoe: if yes, then alexandria:read-stream-content-into-byte-vector
2021-01-31T21:38:36Z Josh_2: pretty much yes
2021-01-31T21:38:51Z galex-713 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T21:40:25Z enzuru joined #lisp
2021-01-31T21:44:16Z ukari joined #lisp
2021-01-31T21:49:56Z renzhi joined #lisp
2021-01-31T21:50:20Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-31T21:54:54Z Wezl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2021-01-31T21:54:59Z u0_a61 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T21:58:03Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp
2021-01-31T21:58:16Z Iolo quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in)
2021-01-31T21:58:51Z Josh_2: I ended up using flexi-streams
2021-01-31T22:00:05Z Iolo joined #lisp
2021-01-31T22:02:57Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T22:03:36Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp
2021-01-31T22:04:01Z Guest7312 quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-31T22:09:10Z Josh_2: is there a library around that allows me to implement something like <command> <various flags> <different options based on flags> ?
2021-01-31T22:09:27Z vhost- quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.8)
2021-01-31T22:09:33Z Josh_2: I can implement myself but cba
2021-01-31T22:09:43Z Xach:  cba?
2021-01-31T22:09:48Z Josh_2: cant be asked
2021-01-31T22:10:46Z Josh_2: it might actually cant be arsed :think:
2021-01-31T22:11:01Z vhost- joined #lisp
2021-01-31T22:12:21Z Josh_2: I will implement with a nice hash table if one does not exist already
2021-01-31T22:13:17Z surabax quit (Quit: Leaving)
2021-01-31T22:24:30Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 3.0)
2021-01-31T22:29:50Z aeth: it definitely has to exist because it's a common problem
2021-01-31T22:29:59Z aeth: (odds are it only does 80% of what you want to do, though)
2021-01-31T22:30:07Z Josh_2: ha yeh
2021-01-31T22:31:11Z Xach: Josh_2: wait, do you mean like a command-line command, not a lisp "command"?
2021-01-31T22:31:14Z adam4567 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T22:32:21Z adam4567 quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T22:33:15Z Josh_2: lisp, basically getting a string like "compass -x 5 -y 5" that would return results higher than x 5 and y 5 etc
2021-01-31T22:33:28Z adam4567 joined #lisp
2021-01-31T22:33:31Z aeth: oh, not command line, then
2021-01-31T22:33:41Z Xach: approximately command-line though.
2021-01-31T22:33:43Z Josh_2: this is in lisp and the arguments are not sent from the command line but from a user
2021-01-31T22:33:51Z Josh_2: yes basically the same
2021-01-31T22:33:59Z Josh_2: from a user over the network
2021-01-31T22:34:08Z Xach: Josh_2: there are one hundred thousand command-line parsing libraries. if you can split your command by whitespace, maybe some of them could help.
2021-01-31T22:34:38Z adam4567 left #lisp
2021-01-31T22:35:12Z Josh_2: well thats what I'm looking for
2021-01-31T22:36:02Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T22:38:33Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com)
2021-01-31T22:40:15Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-31T22:42:02Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T22:42:16Z sxmx quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9)
2021-01-31T22:44:07Z midre joined #lisp
2021-01-31T22:44:36Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T22:47:33Z Xach: so many
2021-01-31T22:47:39Z Xach: maybe even more than one hundred thousand
2021-01-31T22:47:49Z VincentVega joined #lisp
2021-01-31T22:47:51Z no-defun-allowed: Two hundred thousand even?
2021-01-31T22:47:57Z phoe: every time you mention command line parsing that number increases by ten
2021-01-31T22:48:02Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-31T22:48:39Z sxmx joined #lisp
2021-01-31T22:48:54Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-31T22:49:13Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T22:50:08Z midre joined #lisp
2021-01-31T22:53:08Z enzuru quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T22:56:56Z theruran joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:00:37Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T23:02:41Z dbotton quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep)
2021-01-31T23:03:00Z igemnace joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:08:01Z Gnuxie[m]: :Ugh.pdf scream:
2021-01-31T23:09:01Z karlosz joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:09:42Z no-defun-allowed uploaded an image: barf-bag.jpg (51KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/SeOkMBNFDtcFGVwFlZUqnXjx/barf-bag.jpg >
2021-01-31T23:10:14Z no-defun-allowed: this is so sad can we have a define-application-command
2021-01-31T23:10:38Z no-defun-allowed: Er, clim:define-command rather
2021-01-31T23:12:03Z no-defun-allowed: But I think Gnuxie 💜🐝 is thinking of the book cover: <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/77/UNIX-HATERS_Handbook_cover_ISBN_1-56884-203-1.png>
2021-01-31T23:15:40Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-31T23:15:57Z gaqwas joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:16:00Z VincentVega quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-31T23:16:33Z jeosol quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds))
2021-01-31T23:17:03Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2021-01-31T23:17:20Z Gnuxie[m]: Yepp
2021-01-31T23:22:04Z Xach: I have that book, and the original barf bag that came with it
2021-01-31T23:22:10Z Xach: it is a treasured artifact
2021-01-31T23:22:50Z no-defun-allowed: Did you ever use the bag?
2021-01-31T23:23:19Z no-defun-allowed: (That makes holding onto it weirder.)
2021-01-31T23:23:32Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2021-01-31T23:26:04Z enzuru joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:27:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2021-01-31T23:31:00Z anticrisis_ joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:32:25Z mparlaktuna joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:32:43Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:33:45Z anticrisis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T23:35:28Z mparlaktuna quit (Client Quit)
2021-01-31T23:36:23Z mparlaktuna joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:37:23Z dbotton joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:40:16Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2021-01-31T23:41:10Z rogersm joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:42:27Z aeth joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:43:12Z dbotton left #lisp
2021-01-31T23:44:12Z abhixec joined #lisp
2021-01-31T23:45:40Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2021-01-31T23:59:55Z tessier_ joined #lisp