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2021-01-01T00:45:28Z moon-child: is there a good way to do forward declarations, to keep sbcl from getting uppity with me about co-recursive functions?
2021-01-01T00:48:45Z Alfr_: clhs with-compilation-unit
2021-01-01T00:48:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_comp.htm
2021-01-01T00:48:52Z Alfr_: moon-child, ^
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2021-01-01T00:52:37Z moon-child: Alfr_: these functions are already in the same file
2021-01-01T00:56:13Z Alfr_: moon-child, by any chance you're loading the file directly? Can't it reproduce with (load (compile-file ..)).
2021-01-01T00:57:06Z moon-child: ah, yes, that's it.  Using compile-file I get no warning
2021-01-01T00:57:08Z moon-child: thanks!
2021-01-01T00:57:28Z Alfr_: moon-child, but you still can wrap these mutually recursive defuns in a (with-compilation-unit () ..) .
2021-01-01T00:58:15Z Alfr_: ... if you don't want to compile first.
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2021-01-01T02:18:59Z pfdietz: Or, you can declaim the later functions to have an ftype.   Or, you can make the later functions be generic, and put defgenerics at the top of the file, above the defmethods.
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2021-01-01T04:28:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-01T04:28:31Z beach: And a happy new year!
2021-01-01T04:32:59Z thmprover: Good morning, beach, and a happy new year to you and yours!
2021-01-01T04:33:11Z beach: Thanks.
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2021-01-01T04:38:44Z beach: gendl: Starting in 2000, my colleague organized the "Libre Software Meeting" or "Rencontres Mondiales de Logiciel Libre" in Bordeaux.  It was a strange "conference" where people did not pay to attend, and some where in fact invited so they had their trip paid for.
2021-01-01T04:38:51Z beach: I volunteered to chair the track called "Very high-level languages for application development", which I turned into a mostly Common Lisp track.  So from the start we had danb, Krystof, gilberth, and many others present.
2021-01-01T04:38:55Z beach: This meeting was were McCLIM was essentially created.  We sketched how special variables were to be implemented in the presence of threads in SBCL.  danb did Bordeaux threads and maybe also ASDF then.  Over a few years, probably, because we organized the LSM/RMLL for a few years in Bordeaux before it became an even that moved every year.
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2021-01-01T04:48:48Z beach: Maybe Krystof remembers more stuff, and remember them better, than I do.
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2021-01-01T05:46:07Z jeosol: Good morning beach and everyone
2021-01-01T05:46:20Z jeosol: Happy new year 2021 (15 more minutes at my location)
2021-01-01T05:47:13Z beach: You too!
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2021-01-01T05:48:29Z ck_: and then four hours more until the date line has swept the planet, right?
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2021-01-01T05:49:55Z beach: Something like that.
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2021-01-01T05:53:53Z ck_: I looked it up because I wasn't sure; there are two US islands in UTC-12. And also I did the arithmetic the wrong way, it's six hours from now.
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2021-01-01T06:01:11Z beach: Most islands in that zone made a choice to be among the first to celebrate the new year.
2021-01-01T06:03:52Z ck_: most as in both of them?
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2021-01-01T06:14:29Z beach: I am sure there are thousands of islands near the date line.
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2021-01-01T06:19:44Z ck_: According to a map, most of them are in +12, or even +13, that's what I meant earlier, was surprised that there even are marked islands in UTC-12.  But ok. I guess it's off topic unless they do lisp
2021-01-01T06:21:14Z lotuseater: there is a chance for lispers to live there
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2021-01-01T06:37:44Z thmprover: Say, is there an abstract machine (or virtual machine) that's particularly well suited for Lisp to target?
2021-01-01T06:41:24Z aeth: (nth 8 (multiple-value-list (get-decoded-time))) ; now it's on topic-ish
2021-01-01T06:41:26Z Lycurgus: prolly the one(s) in the lisp machine implementations if any
2021-01-01T06:41:33Z aeth: ck_: Except you have it backwards.
2021-01-01T06:42:02Z ck_: aeth: what part?
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2021-01-01T06:43:05Z Lycurgus: also any string oriented like Hendry's MINT
2021-01-01T06:43:39Z aeth: You're talking about places where (= 12 (nth 8 (multiple-value-list (get-decoded-time)))) and talking about it like it's -12 while talking about (= -13 (nth 8 (multiple-value-list (get-decoded-time)))) like it's +13
2021-01-01T06:44:51Z moon-child: thmprover: something with hw-assisted gc and cons-aware cache algorithms
2021-01-01T06:46:22Z thmprover: Lycurgus: I don't know much about the Lisp Machines, is there some "toy model" describing their architecture?
2021-01-01T06:46:40Z ck_: aeth: so your point is that I got the lisp terminology wrong with respect to delta to UTC, and 24.1.4.1?
2021-01-01T06:47:00Z thmprover: moon-child: ah, well, I'm more interested in the theory side, gc and caching are very...applied...
2021-01-01T06:47:13Z thmprover: (applied, and useful)
2021-01-01T06:47:43Z Lycurgus: thmprover, unclear what you mean but wouldn't know. FWIU, the ancient archives have complete sources
2021-01-01T06:48:15Z Lycurgus: there's prolly a description of the lisp compiler somewhere
2021-01-01T06:48:38Z Lycurgus: OTOH, i have the MINT distro tape
2021-01-01T06:49:48Z thmprover: Lycurgus: I mean, something similar to the SECD machine, in the sense of simple and minimal while demonstrating the key parts of the instruction set for a Lisp Machine. (Or is that just an SECD machine?)
2021-01-01T06:49:50Z Lycurgus: and the book can apparently be gotten on amazon
2021-01-01T06:50:48Z Lycurgus: thmprover, FWIW here's my spin
2021-01-01T06:52:01Z Lycurgus: as an implementor, in practice either you want a real lisp machine to target or you will likely prefer a pragmatic approach to produce good code on
2021-01-01T06:52:11Z Lycurgus: implicitly defined target arches
2021-01-01T06:52:34Z Lycurgus: with something like an implied vm from that approach
2021-01-01T06:53:01Z Lycurgus: that's what I've mostly seen in implementations I looked into
2021-01-01T06:53:21Z Lycurgus: only did one a port of AKCL to OS/2
2021-01-01T06:53:31Z thmprover: Lycurgus, I completely agree with you; my curiosity was strictly academic.
2021-01-01T06:53:47Z Lycurgus: and used to build cmucl before sbcl
2021-01-01T06:54:26Z thmprover: I just wasn't sure if there was some "obvious virtual machine" like CAM/FAM/ZINC for ML, but for Lisp.
2021-01-01T06:54:48Z Lycurgus: there well may be more or less
2021-01-01T06:55:16Z Lycurgus: i.e. obviously the best after the review
2021-01-01T06:55:39Z Lycurgus: and as I stated there are categories
2021-01-01T06:56:43Z Lycurgus: eg (also) SNOBOL
2021-01-01T06:58:13Z Lycurgus: also there were/are user u programmable arches like the burroughs mid range series
2021-01-01T06:58:23Z beach: thmprover: For a theoretical machine to be applicable, you also need a very simple "Lisp" language.
2021-01-01T06:58:32Z Lycurgus: which had lisp compilers
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2021-01-01T07:00:18Z thmprover: Well, I know the SECD machine can be the target for a simple-ish Lisp compiler, which piqued my interest about what needs to be added to handle more complex Lisp constructs.
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2021-01-01T07:03:18Z beach: thmprover: simple compiler, but also a very simple subset of what we think of as "Lisp" today.
2021-01-01T07:03:33Z beach: thmprover: I would think "Purely functional" to start with.
2021-01-01T07:04:39Z thmprover: beach: I should also mention, my curiosity really is strictly academic (for use in a case-study in compiler correctness)
2021-01-01T07:04:57Z thmprover: beach: so, simple Lisp is perfectly fine :)
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2021-01-01T07:06:09Z beach: thmprover: But then you are in trouble because 1. There is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp", and 2. The channel topic is Common Lisp.
2021-01-01T07:09:00Z thmprover: beach: trouble is my business ;) In all seriousness, I've been thinking about how to move from "A simple toy Scheme interpreter" to "A simple toy Common Lisp interpreter", what would need to change.
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2021-01-01T07:10:38Z beach: thmprover: Common Lisp is such a complex language, in particular with lots of imperative constructs, that I am pretty sure that there is no simple abstract machine that will help, unless, of course, you accept that the result will be so slow that it's unusable.
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2021-01-01T07:14:29Z thmprover: beach: like CLISP? Yeah, I have no illusions about performance, my goal is correctness. This is more an experiment with literate programming plus formal proofs, than a fancy new tool for production.
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2021-01-01T07:15:04Z beach: Way worse than CLISP.
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2021-01-01T07:16:51Z beach: thmprover: For example, you could use Church numerals for integers.
2021-01-01T07:17:01Z beach: That's very simple.
2021-01-01T07:20:25Z thmprover: beach: true, but that may be too simple. I'm looking for a happy medium between the extremely simple pure lambda calculus VM, and the complicated real world.
2021-01-01T07:20:59Z beach: That's a very tough thing to help you with, because it is not obvious what is too simple and what is too complicated for you.
2021-01-01T07:22:23Z beach: thmprover: For instance, something like RISC-V or a tiny subset of x86-64 can run Common Lisp just fine.
2021-01-01T07:27:19Z thmprover: beach: well, as I understand it (and I don't fully), a Lisp Machine boiled down to a sort of virtual machine atop a Risc processor.
2021-01-01T07:29:10Z beach: Sort of.  I think it was a machine that could be microprogrammed.  But the Lisp machine was not designed to be simple.  It was designed to run Lisp efficiently, given the existing general-purpose processors and the compiler technology we had at the time.
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2021-01-01T07:31:08Z beach: Take "CDR coding", for example.  It makes things horribly complicated for the only reason that memory was expensive at the time.
2021-01-01T07:32:33Z beach: Didn't it also have out-of-band tag bits?  Now, you can use the lower few bits of a 64-bit word without any problem, because machines are byte addressed, so there are more bits than you need.
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2021-01-01T07:35:15Z alexshendi: Hi! Good morning & happy new year.
2021-01-01T07:36:42Z beach: Hello alexshendi.  You too!
2021-01-01T07:37:35Z alexshendi: I am trying to build SBCL 2.1.0 under NetBSD/arm64. I have tried to bootstrap using ecl and abcl. Both ultimately fail in the warm init phase (make-target-2.sh).
2021-01-01T07:38:14Z thmprover: beach: right, and while "CDR coding" is an important optimization, it's not a necessary component for an "abstract Lisp machine". I suppose my lack of knowledge about Lisp Machines may be the crux of my [immediate] problem.
2021-01-01T07:38:20Z alexshendi: Which pastebin can I use for this channel?
2021-01-01T07:39:15Z beach: plaster.tymoon.edu
2021-01-01T07:39:32Z beach: er, eu, not edu
2021-01-01T07:39:37Z saturn2: i believe the lisp machine had special instructions for accessing the various lisp data types, so you didn't have to choose between speed and memory safety
2021-01-01T07:40:12Z beach: saturn2: So you mean there was no need to check the type?
2021-01-01T07:40:38Z beach: But checking the type is easy these days, and type inference often makes it not necessary.
2021-01-01T07:40:39Z saturn2: no need to emit extra instructions to do that, right
2021-01-01T07:40:56Z beach: Yes, so another complication in the name of speed.
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2021-01-01T07:42:41Z alexshendi: https://pastebin.com/WKmWkBTd
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2021-01-01T07:43:02Z alexshendi: Have already used pastebin.
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2021-01-01T07:43:56Z alexshendi: Any suggestions? I have already explored different dynamic sizes...
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2021-01-01T07:44:26Z alexshendi: TIA :)
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2021-01-01T07:49:36Z solideogloria[m]: Has anyone here used the croatoan library >
2021-01-01T07:49:41Z solideogloria[m]:  * * Has anyone here used the croatoan library ?
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2021-01-01T07:49:58Z solideogloria[m]: If yes, what exact character does the down keycode return ?
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2021-01-01T08:32:43Z lotuseater: solideogloria[m]: #\ARROW_DOWN maybe?
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2021-01-01T08:33:27Z lotuseater: ah no, #\DOWNWARDS_ARROW is a valid char
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2021-01-01T08:44:19Z jeosol: alexshendi: Are you trying to install a fresh SBCL?
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2021-01-01T08:45:41Z alexshendi: jeosol: It's not in packages, so what alternative do I have?
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2021-01-01T08:46:15Z alexshendi: jeosol: So, yes.
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2021-01-01T08:48:15Z jeosol: I haven't installed on a NetBSD/arm64 before. What command are you running? There is also a #sbcl channel and the guys may be able to address this.
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2021-01-01T08:48:31Z jeosol: which of the other implementation gave the error you linked in the pastebin?
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2021-01-01T08:51:15Z alexshendi: I have already posted on on #sbcl, thanks.
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2021-01-01T08:52:30Z alexshendi: Actually both. Note that the error isn't from the host lisp implementation, but from the sbcl binary that was built using it.
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2021-01-01T08:55:45Z alexshendi: The error message in the pastebin is actually from a build using abcl.
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2021-01-01T09:06:53Z solideogloria[m]: <lotuseater "ah no, #\DOWNWARDS_ARROW is a va"> that is the unicode character ↓
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2021-01-01T09:07:03Z solideogloria[m]: not what the terminal returns to the program
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2021-01-01T10:37:52Z phoe: is there a version of Flavors that runs on modern Common Lisp implementations?
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2021-01-01T10:45:59Z Krystof: beach: another thing about RMLL, at least as I recall it was implemented in our track, was that the plenary-type talks did not take up all that much time (1 day of the 4 or 5, perhaps) and so the rest of the time was spent however the delegates wanted... which led to some good hacking times
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2021-01-01T10:47:14Z Krystof: it was also great because a bunch of us were able to meet in person for the first time.  I'd met dan_b before (I think) but those meetings were my first encounter with gilbert, eric marsden, marc battyani, tim daly, ...
2021-01-01T10:47:33Z Krystof: andreas fuchs, maybe?
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2021-01-01T10:48:34Z beach: Krystof: Yes, I agree it was great.
2021-01-01T10:49:38Z beach: I don't think I had met any of those before, including you.
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2021-01-01T10:57:13Z Krystof: and I had a great time!  I remember going to Bordeaux twice for RMLL, and somewhere else once, I think
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2021-01-01T10:58:16Z beach: Yeah, I went to a few other places as well.  Dijon was one, and Metz.
2021-01-01T10:58:57Z beach: The entire idea was fantastic.  The first year there were less than 200 participants, as I recall, but it grew to more than 1000 pretty fast.
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2021-01-01T11:01:25Z beach: It was just amazing to walk into the main entry hall of ENSERB and see all these people hacking away.
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2021-01-01T13:21:50Z zmagii: Anyone know about the Lean programming language?
2021-01-01T13:22:35Z phoe: what is it?
2021-01-01T13:23:01Z phoe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_(proof_assistant) this one you mean?
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2021-01-01T14:15:18Z murtagh: Is it a good idea to read SICP .. If you have just learnt a little bit of C
2021-01-01T14:15:40Z beach: It could be overwhelming.
2021-01-01T14:15:45Z murtagh: How will learning Lisp help me?
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2021-01-01T14:16:04Z beach: It depends on what you need help with.
2021-01-01T14:16:05Z murtagh: I mean what is lisp known for?
2021-01-01T14:16:42Z murtagh: Someone kinda bought SICP for me... So I wasnt sure if I should go with it?
2021-01-01T14:16:49Z beach: It is a great programming language.  But that might not be what it is "known for".
2021-01-01T14:17:01Z beach: OK, several things.
2021-01-01T14:17:06Z murtagh: So let me see how do I say..
2021-01-01T14:17:21Z murtagh: What do ppl here use lisp for?
2021-01-01T14:17:24Z beach: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, whereas SICP uses Scheme.
2021-01-01T14:17:31Z murtagh: Ohh
2021-01-01T14:17:52Z beach: But Scheme is a good idea to learn as well if you want to try something different from C.
2021-01-01T14:18:24Z murtagh: Yeah but what does Scheme focus on or Common Lisp
2021-01-01T14:18:25Z beach: People here use Common Lisp for all kinds of things.  It is a general-purpose programming language.
2021-01-01T14:18:30Z murtagh: Ohhh
2021-01-01T14:19:11Z murtagh: Could you give me a reason why ppl would use C and why would they use Scheme or Common Lisp
2021-01-01T14:19:43Z murtagh: Like why one over than another
2021-01-01T14:19:54Z beach: Globally speaking, C is closer to the machine, and Common Lisp is much better for writing applications.
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2021-01-01T14:20:02Z murtagh: But yeah I got it.. When you said general purpose language
2021-01-01T14:20:09Z murtagh: I see
2021-01-01T14:21:29Z beach: See the second quote of www.nhplace.com/kent/quoted.html for what Lisp is used for.
2021-01-01T14:22:36Z beach: C is a very unsafe language, whereas most Common Lisp implementations are safe by default.
2021-01-01T14:23:01Z murtagh: I see
2021-01-01T14:23:18Z murtagh: Is Common Lisp the most popular implementation of lisp?
2021-01-01T14:23:27Z murtagh: I mean more widely used?
2021-01-01T14:23:35Z Cthulhux: i think that would be scheme
2021-01-01T14:23:44Z phoe: "Lisp" is an overloaded term
2021-01-01T14:24:06Z Cthulhux: phoe: technically, ruby is a lisp..
2021-01-01T14:24:10Z beach: murtagh: There is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp", which is part of the reason why this channel is about Common Lisp, which is quite well defined.
2021-01-01T14:24:12Z phoe: Lisp is a whole family of languages, including dialects like Scheme, Racket, Common Lisp, Clojure, Shen, Hy, Lisp Flavored Erlang, and what else
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2021-01-01T14:24:17Z murtagh: My end goal ofc is to make games no doubt
2021-01-01T14:24:20Z beach: Cthulhux: Please don't go there.
2021-01-01T14:24:30Z phoe: however you have wandered into #lisp which is a lair of Common Lisp programmers
2021-01-01T14:24:45Z phoe: ##lisp is a more general channel that is about all Lisp dialects
2021-01-01T14:24:54Z beach: murtagh: I believe there is a channel #lispgames that is dedicated to games in Common Lisp.
2021-01-01T14:24:55Z murtagh: Oh ok
2021-01-01T14:25:05Z murtagh: Kk
2021-01-01T14:25:06Z murtagh: Thanks
2021-01-01T14:25:17Z beach: Pleasure.  Good luck!
2021-01-01T14:25:21Z Xach: Furthermore, #lisp is the place where people who *like* common lisp congregate - not simply people who use it. It's not a support group for people who are forced to use it and hate it.
2021-01-01T14:25:38Z murtagh: Gotcha
2021-01-01T14:25:43Z Xach: Although those people do sometimes visit and ask for homework help
2021-01-01T14:26:01Z murtagh: What makes common lisp stand out.. From other lisps?
2021-01-01T14:26:21Z murtagh: I mean why do you guys like this impl for lisp
2021-01-01T14:26:25Z phoe: murtagh: it's a multiparadigm language meant for designing real-world applications
2021-01-01T14:26:34Z beach: murtagh: We just said that the term "Lisp" is not well defined.
2021-01-01T14:26:36Z phoe: I like its natural interactivity and livecoding
2021-01-01T14:27:43Z Xach: common lisp has a well-written standard, multiple mature implementations, the possibility of commercial support, examples of successful companies and applications with CL at their core (though not a zillion, they do exist), potential for fast code
2021-01-01T14:28:17Z Xach: if you like emacs, a nice development environment
2021-01-01T14:28:59Z Xach: i sometimes wish there were multiple multibillion-dollar companies racing to improve it, but then i think the result would not really be recognizable as the thing i like for very long.
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2021-01-01T14:58:53Z VincentVega: Happy 2021, folks! A bit late to the party, but now that quickdocs is closed. what do you use? I just want to explore the existing projects. For emacs, there's MELPA which makes it easy as every project there has a very short description and you can search it.
2021-01-01T15:02:36Z contrapunctus: VincentVega: awesome-cl/cl-cookbook, but I'm just a newcomer. Would the querying functions of Quicklisp work?
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2021-01-01T15:06:22Z Xach: quicklisp doesn't offer summary info
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2021-01-01T15:06:44Z phoe: quickref
2021-01-01T15:07:49Z VincentVega: phoe: ok, looks good!
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2021-01-01T15:09:19Z VincentVega: contrapunctus: thanks for awesome-cl, never heard of that one
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2021-01-01T17:06:35Z pve: Hi! Is there a CL implementation that you would recommend for a Raspberry Pi?
2021-01-01T17:07:18Z Xach: pve: i have run sbcl and ccl, but not used them enough to endorse either one, sorry
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2021-01-01T17:09:27Z pve: Xach: ok thanks.. my main concern is whether sbcl or ccl are too heavyweight
2021-01-01T17:10:07Z pve: so I was thinking maybe ECL would be a good fit
2021-01-01T17:10:44Z pve: at least I'm under the impression that ECL is a bit more lightweight
2021-01-01T17:10:50Z Xach: pve: i would seriously try ccl before ecl
2021-01-01T17:11:28Z pve: Xach: hmm ok, never really tried ccl before in any serious capacity
2021-01-01T17:12:23Z beach: pve: You could ask no-defun-allowed.
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2021-01-01T17:13:10Z beach: pve: Not here at the moment.  You would have to ask in #sicl.
2021-01-01T17:15:12Z pve: beach: alright, will do, thanks
2021-01-01T17:15:51Z Xach: pve: did you have a specific task in mind?
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2021-01-01T17:19:30Z pve: Xach: not really, would just like to play around with it for now
2021-01-01T17:19:31Z Josh_2: Ello
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2021-01-01T17:22:28Z pve: at some point I'd like to give one to my son, but I fear he's still a bit too young for CL :)
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2021-01-01T17:27:29Z lotuseater: i wish someone would have shown me all this stuff with 6
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2021-01-01T17:32:58Z aeth: pve: https://borodust.org/projects/trivial-gamekit/
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2021-01-01T17:33:15Z aeth: pve: Probably too low-level but you could probably hack together some 80s-style 2D game that he can just modify
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2021-01-01T17:34:11Z pve: aeth: hey cool!
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2021-01-01T17:50:20Z shka_: aeth: how cool!
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2021-01-01T17:53:32Z phoe: We have CL:CONSTANTP that accepts a Lisp form and a lexical environment, and answers true or false. Is it generally possible to have a hypothetical CONSTANT-VALUE operator that produces a value off a form that has been declared constant by CONSTANTP?
2021-01-01T17:57:28Z jackdaniel: phoe: yes
2021-01-01T17:57:50Z jackdaniel: i.e ecl's compiler has a function constant-value-p which returns two values: whether it is a constant, and if it is, the second value the value
2021-01-01T17:58:11Z phoe: oh! perfect
2021-01-01T17:59:19Z jackdaniel: see src/cmp/cmpopt-constant.lsp if you are interested about details
2021-01-01T18:02:02Z aeth: phoe: Portably, I guess could do something like this, which doesn't have an environment, but I think the only portable DEFCONSTANT is global, anyway: (and (constantp '+foo+) (symbol-value '+foo+))
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2021-01-01T18:03:03Z phoe: aeth: portably, yes, but if an implementation answers that e.g. '(+ 1 2) is CONSTANTP, then it should be able to fetch that value
2021-01-01T18:03:08Z phoe: for use e.g. inside compiler macros
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2021-01-01T18:03:33Z phoe: I'm asking because I'm verifying my comment at https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/kob7hd/compiler_macros_when_why_how_and_real_life/
2021-01-01T18:03:37Z jackdaniel: constant may be defined in the compilation unit (but not really evaluated), that's another gotcha (then symbol-value won't work)
2021-01-01T18:03:39Z aeth: Well, then you just branch on symbolp...
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2021-01-01T18:05:14Z phoe: okay - what do I do in the non-symbol branch though?
2021-01-01T18:06:06Z phoe: that's where the hypothetical CONSTANT-VALUE function comes into play, but I have no idea if there even exists a portalib for it
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2021-01-01T18:08:31Z aeth: phoe: maybe something like this? (if (and (symbolp foo) (constantp foo)) #| the fast path using (symbol-value foo) |# #| the slow path |#)
2021-01-01T18:09:02Z phoe: basically https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/553c0f25f38b2b0d5922ca7b4f62f09eb85ace1c/level-1/l1-utils.lisp#L680-L684
2021-01-01T18:09:07Z jackdaniel: you need a codewalker to analyae the lexenv too
2021-01-01T18:09:18Z phoe: CCL does not seem to recognize '(+ 1 2) as CONSTANTP, so that is going to work
2021-01-01T18:09:22Z jackdaniel: hence portable library does not exist
2021-01-01T18:09:27Z aeth: well, no, the codewalker will fail because you don't know what's going on
2021-01-01T18:09:32Z aeth: well, a portable one, at least
2021-01-01T18:09:36Z aeth: If you see a + it could be anything.
2021-01-01T18:09:57Z jackdaniel: you can't redefine cl functions
2021-01-01T18:09:58Z aeth: Well, I guess not because CL:+ is package-locked in SBCL and perhaps other implementations.
2021-01-01T18:10:06Z phoe: aeth: it can't be anything
2021-01-01T18:10:07Z aeth: But in general, you don't know what's going on.
2021-01-01T18:10:21Z phoe: CL functions must not be frebound
2021-01-01T18:11:21Z phoe: still, this gives me idea for writing a portalib that fills exactly this gap
2021-01-01T18:11:50Z aeth: phoe: That doesn't help the general case, only with CL:+, which was poorly chosen on my part. Unless the package you're using is package locked. It looks like Alexandria has this... #+sb-package-locks (:lock t)
2021-01-01T18:11:56Z phoe: I remember heisig complaining about this some time ago, too.
2021-01-01T18:12:09Z phoe: aeth: the general case is that I have a form, and an implementation tells me that this form is CONSTANTP
2021-01-01T18:12:11Z aeth: Idk which implementations other than SBCL implement the feature sb-package-locks, though
2021-01-01T18:12:24Z phoe: I want to get the value of that CONSTANTP form
2021-01-01T18:12:43Z phoe: possibly using implementation-dependent functionality, because it's required in the general case
2021-01-01T18:12:49Z aeth: phoe: If it's a symbol, then symbol-value, otherwise tree-walk or just slow-path.
2021-01-01T18:13:06Z aeth: But a tree-walk only works if it's package locked, otherwise it could stand for anything.
2021-01-01T18:14:35Z phoe: I don't want to manually tree-walk, I want the implementation to tell me the value
2021-01-01T18:14:55Z phoe: and so far it seems that SBCL, CCL, and ECL have functionalities for that
2021-01-01T18:15:02Z aeth: eval?
2021-01-01T18:15:11Z phoe: which means that creating a portalib for that would be viable.
2021-01-01T18:15:11Z aeth: Would eval work?
2021-01-01T18:15:14Z phoe: hmmmm
2021-01-01T18:15:17Z phoe: no
2021-01-01T18:15:27Z aeth: ah, no environment, unlike in Scheme
2021-01-01T18:15:30Z phoe: because EVAL takes no environment argument
2021-01-01T18:15:45Z aeth: In Scheme it does. :-)
2021-01-01T18:15:46Z phoe: the fact that a form is constant in some env doesn't mean it's constant in a null env
2021-01-01T18:19:19Z aeth: phoe: I guess SYMBOLP is the only thing you can do portably for the portable path, then? Since that's just global. i.e. (and (symbolp '+foo+) (constantp '+foo+)) then (symbol-value '+foo+)
2021-01-01T18:19:37Z phoe: yes
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2021-01-01T18:32:05Z jackdaniel: you can't do that
2021-01-01T18:32:15Z jackdaniel: symbol-value does not accept the environment
2021-01-01T18:32:21Z jackdaniel: (constantp does)
2021-01-01T18:32:50Z jackdaniel: in other words you query the runtime, not the compilation unit symbol
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2021-01-01T19:10:38Z MetaYan: The sb-cga issue that's been causing many failures in the Quicklisp reports now has a fix: https://github.com/nikodemus/sb-cga/pull/8 . Does anyone here have the possibility to merge it?
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2021-01-01T21:10:54Z makomo: does anyone have a recommendation for a library that implements a mutable ordered set?
2021-01-01T21:11:15Z phoe: funny, I was thinking about ordered hash tables some time ago
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2021-01-01T21:11:52Z makomo: it's a bit annoying how fragmented the ecosystem is when it comes to data structures :/
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2021-01-01T21:12:30Z shka_: slyrus: i just rewrote select stuff
2021-01-01T21:12:36Z Alfr: phoe, how would that work?
2021-01-01T21:12:41Z shka_: it was way more complex then useful
2021-01-01T21:12:55Z makomo: Alfr: i suppose phoe meant ordered dictionaries/maps
2021-01-01T21:13:08Z shka_: makomo: skip-list would do?
2021-01-01T21:13:19Z phoe: Alfr: like Java's LinkedHashSet
2021-01-01T21:13:50Z makomo: shka_: i've taken a look at cl-data-structures :-), and was just about to ask you a bit about it. does the set interface have just those 3 functions? what about unions, intersections, differences?
2021-01-01T21:14:06Z shka_: yeah, they are missing :(
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2021-01-01T21:14:18Z shka_: which is a shame, because i planned to add it
2021-01-01T21:14:39Z shka_: skip-lists are the best data structures for intersections actually
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2021-01-01T21:15:24Z Alfr: phoe, ah okay. It's insertion order, not inventing some H respecting < for every problem. Didn't know about it, thanks.
2021-01-01T21:16:16Z shka_: makomo: i certainly want to add unions, intersection and difference, i just didn't manage to get to it yet
2021-01-01T21:17:34Z makomo: shka_: mhm, i see. do you know of any other libraries that provide a mutable set?
2021-01-01T21:17:49Z shka_: nope, sorry
2021-01-01T21:18:13Z makomo: it's really weird to me that such a thing is impossible to find in CL :(
2021-01-01T21:20:11Z shka_: i know
2021-01-01T21:21:24Z shka_: if you want to contribute to the development of cl-ds, you are encouraged to implement the set intersection for skip-lists ;-)
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2021-01-01T21:27:39Z makomo: shka_: is there some sort of reference that you used while implementing the skip-list-based set or?
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2021-01-01T21:31:40Z shka_: hmmm, i think that i did this by the book
2021-01-01T21:32:38Z shka_: it is not particularly complex data structures, erase proved to be the most difficult part
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2021-01-01T21:42:23Z makomo: shka_: any book in particular or did you just "wing it" from memory? ;)
2021-01-01T21:42:53Z shka_: makomo: by the book i meant the original article
2021-01-01T21:43:01Z shka_: describing the skip-list
2021-01-01T21:43:30Z shka_: but honestly, after you get the basic property of the one into your head, you can figure out the rest
2021-01-01T21:43:37Z shka_: *node
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2021-01-01T21:44:32Z shka_: which is distinctly different to the tree balancing :-)
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2021-01-01T21:45:17Z shka_: and RB-trees are the worst
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2021-01-01T21:46:47Z makomo: aha, i see
2021-01-01T21:46:55Z makomo: re rb-trees: for sure ;)
2021-01-01T21:48:03Z mfiano: what about rb-trees?
2021-01-01T21:48:25Z shka_: mfiano: they are PITA to implement
2021-01-01T21:48:35Z shka_: and equally PITA to understand
2021-01-01T21:48:36Z mfiano: balancing red-black trees is quite easy compared to other rebalancing such as AVL/WAVL
2021-01-01T21:49:15Z shka_: yeah, all autoabalancing trees are a mess
2021-01-01T21:49:16Z mfiano: Also, all self-balancing trees can be written in terms of 2 functions split and join, with the rest of the code shared among all implementations.
2021-01-01T21:49:38Z shka_: in theory :P
2021-01-01T21:49:45Z mfiano: Not in theory :)
2021-01-01T21:50:31Z shka_: seriously, internet is full of slightly broken RB trees implementations
2021-01-01T21:51:07Z shka_: anyway, good night all
2021-01-01T21:51:29Z mfiano: Maybe people should write tests to ensure the invariants. The algorithm is quite simple
2021-01-01T21:51:39Z mfiano: Just pick up a copy of CLRS and translate the pseudo code to Lisp
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2021-01-01T21:52:19Z mfiano: Also, for the split/join awesomeness, have a read this paper which is what I did for RB/AVL: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1602.02120.pdf
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2021-01-01T21:56:35Z mfiano: I guess I recalled incorrectly: "all code except JOINisgeneric across the balancing schemes
2021-01-01T21:56:37Z mfiano: "
2021-01-01T21:58:45Z contrapunctus: I'm trying to write a Gemini CGI script. (I'm new to Gemini, web programming, _and_ CL. 😅) This is not a long-running application - does the "connect to remote Lisp image" workflow still make sense for it? 🤔
2021-01-01T21:59:33Z shka_: contrapunctus: i honestly don't understand your question, but connecting to the remote lisp is normally very useful
2021-01-01T22:00:08Z Xach: What is Gemini?
2021-01-01T22:00:40Z contrapunctus: Xach: https://gemini.circumlunar.space/
2021-01-01T22:01:26Z contrapunctus: shka_: most of the examples I've seen for remote interaction have been of programs with a constant event loop of sorts running.
2021-01-01T22:02:21Z shka_: contrapunctus: well, for what is worth i used to connect to the remote server with a decent hardware resources to crunch some data
2021-01-01T22:02:36Z shka_: no event loop involved
2021-01-01T22:02:49Z shka_: anyway, if you need to be on a remote server, then connect
2021-01-01T22:02:59Z shka_: easy
2021-01-01T22:04:44Z contrapunctus: shka_: what did your workflow look like? Start remote SBCL (running swank), create SSH tunnel, and M-x slime-connect, each time you want to work on it? 🤔
2021-01-01T22:04:58Z shka_: yeah, exactly that
2021-01-01T22:05:18Z shka_: also, set up emacs for easier debugging
2021-01-01T22:06:01Z shka_: oh, and i simply never disconnecting
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2021-01-01T22:06:08Z shka_: *never did disconnecting
2021-01-01T22:06:27Z contrapunctus: And then I imagine you load your script into the remote image. Hm...
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2021-01-01T22:07:06Z shka_: or just compile with C-c C-c
2021-01-01T22:07:10Z shka_: in emacs
2021-01-01T22:08:13Z shka_: it will send the it via the ssh tunnel and swank connection into the remote lisp
2021-01-01T22:08:26Z shka_: and use TRAMP for editing
2021-01-01T22:08:57Z shka_: eshell also works via tramp, same for magit
2021-01-01T22:09:05Z contrapunctus: Yeah...
2021-01-01T22:09:06Z shka_: so in summary, it was pretty nice
2021-01-01T22:09:21Z shka_: i recomend
2021-01-01T22:09:25Z shka_: anyway
2021-01-01T22:09:27Z shka_: bye!
2021-01-01T22:09:45Z contrapunctus: thanks, ciao
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2021-01-01T22:11:28Z benjamindc: When I try to load my asd file I get an error: Execution of a form compiled with errors. Form: ("alexandria"). But when I prefix defsystem with asdf (e.g. asdf:defsystem), I don't get that error. But I see that it's standard not to use the prefix on code that I see on github. What am I doing wrong?
2021-01-01T22:11:52Z Xach: benjamindc: don't try to use LOAD to load system files.
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2021-01-01T22:12:11Z Xach: benjamindc: asdf:load-asd will work better
2021-01-01T22:12:32Z benjamindc: wonderful, that works. Thanks Xach
2021-01-01T22:12:43Z Xach: Also, I wouldn't say it's standard not to use the prefix - that is a way around the very problem you have.
2021-01-01T22:15:50Z benjamindc: Now I'm having the problem that when i run (asdf:test-system "systemname"), rove runs successfully, but doesn't run any tests.
2021-01-01T22:16:06Z benjamindc: I get "All 0 tests passed."
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2021-01-01T22:17:22Z benjamindc: I'm using the :package-inferred-system class
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2021-01-01T22:17:53Z frodef: 'evening
2021-01-01T22:17:59Z benjamindc: Hey frodef
2021-01-01T22:18:22Z Xach: I don't know about that, sorry. I'm not familiar with rove.
2021-01-01T22:18:40Z frodef: is there a good idiom for detecting the presence of any duplicates in a list?
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2021-01-01T22:19:04Z frodef: I have, basically, (= (length list) (remove-duplicates list))
2021-01-01T22:19:38Z Xach: frodef: is there any other interesting property of the list that might be exploited?
2021-01-01T22:19:46Z frodef: .. (length (remove-dupl ...)) that is.
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2021-01-01T22:19:57Z Xach: (it's not a sorted list of integers, is it?)
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2021-01-01T22:20:23Z frodef: no, the elements are rudimentary datastructures, really.
2021-01-01T22:21:10Z frodef: so there's a :TEST in there that I didn't put in explicitly.
2021-01-01T22:21:54Z Xach: a table would be faster but longer to make - i can't think of a well-known short idiom
2021-01-01T22:22:22Z frodef: ok, thanks, I was just getting this feeling I was missing something obvious :)
2021-01-01T22:22:37Z Xach: i might be missing something obvious too :~(
2021-01-01T22:22:47Z frodef: nah.. ;)
2021-01-01T22:24:01Z Xach: alexandria:has-duplicates-p
2021-01-01T22:24:08Z Xach: (does not exist)
2021-01-01T22:24:41Z frodef: In terms of efficiency I could easily whip up a simple loop, but I don't think it would be more readable/idiomatic.
2021-01-01T22:24:48Z semz: why not just write a helper function
2021-01-01T22:24:50Z phoe: frodef: duplicates under which test?
2021-01-01T22:25:05Z semz: would probably be clearer than an idiom
2021-01-01T22:25:16Z phoe: if it's eq or eql or equal or equalp I just add them into a hash table and return NIL if there's a FOUNDP
2021-01-01T22:25:19Z phoe: otherwise return T
2021-01-01T22:25:24Z frodef: phoe: general duplicates under any (provided) test.
2021-01-01T22:25:32Z phoe: no idea then
2021-01-01T22:25:51Z frodef: expected list-size in my case is about 2-4, so ... no hash-table :)
2021-01-01T22:26:06Z semz: If a function converts something to a string, is it ever a disadvantage if the resulting string has a fill pointer? I find the function much easier to write using FPs and feel it'd be silly to copy the entire thing just to end up with a simple-string.
2021-01-01T22:26:49Z phoe: semz: mostly speed I think, some code is more performant if it knows that it works on simple strings
2021-01-01T22:27:34Z frodef: semz: I can do a helper function, just that if there's already such a function or idiom, that'd be better.
2021-01-01T22:28:32Z Xach: semz: yeah, working on arrays with fill pointers is slower in general. if a consumer cares, it would have to convert.
2021-01-01T22:28:49Z Xach: it depends on the situation
2021-01-01T22:29:57Z semz: fwiw the array isn't adjustable
2021-01-01T22:30:05Z semz: still relevant?
2021-01-01T22:30:10Z mfiano: Yes
2021-01-01T22:30:13Z Xach: semz: yes
2021-01-01T22:30:14Z semz: grr
2021-01-01T22:30:18Z mfiano: It is no longer a simple-array if it has a fill-pointer
2021-01-01T22:30:32Z mfiano: and therefor not a simple-string, or perhaps even a simple-base-string
2021-01-01T22:31:29Z Xach: It can still be the right choice for you! It just helps to be aware that it's not without drawbacks.
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2021-01-01T22:36:15Z phoe: CONSTANTP question: could someone provide me an example where the &environment argument passed to CONSTANTP matters? Like, where it changes the actual outcome of the function?
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2021-01-01T22:37:46Z frodef: I guess an env could hold e.g. a symbol-macro that transforms a symbol to e.g an integer?
2021-01-01T22:38:39Z phoe: right, this is one example
2021-01-01T22:41:13Z frodef: duplicates-p: (loop for x = (pop list) while list thereis (find x list :test ...))
2021-01-01T22:41:17Z mfiano: phoe: http://random-state.net/log/3340101644.html
2021-01-01T22:41:31Z phoe: mfiano: gasp
2021-01-01T22:41:45Z phoe: thank you
2021-01-01T22:43:05Z frodef: ... (loop while list thereis (find (pop list) list :test test :key key))
2021-01-01T22:45:31Z Xach: frodef: points for brevity if not efficiency
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2021-01-01T22:47:45Z frodef: Xach: hm.. can't really see a more efficient (general) solution, can you?
2021-01-01T22:48:08Z semz: (cons x y) has duplicates iff y contains x or y contains duplicates, so it's enough to check cdrs
2021-01-01T22:48:24Z semz: cuts the run time in half
2021-01-01T22:48:40Z semz: assuming of course that your test is symmetric
2021-01-01T22:50:17Z semz: but afaik most built-in functions barf when given asymmetric tests anyway
2021-01-01T22:50:18Z frodef: semz: I don't follow, really..?
2021-01-01T22:51:35Z semz: once you've checked for 1 in '(1 2 3), there's no need to check 2 against all of '(1 2 3) again because (test 2 1) = (test 1 2) was already done earlier
2021-01-01T22:51:56Z Xach: it popped the earlier entry
2021-01-01T22:52:07Z Xach: frodef: i bet i was too hasty, i'll think more about it
2021-01-01T22:52:14Z semz: there's no need to pop
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2021-01-01T22:54:04Z semz: (loop for x on list thereis (find (car x) (cdr x) ...)) should do the trick
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2021-01-01T22:54:56Z semz: or member, rather than find
2021-01-01T22:55:00Z frodef: semz: that is pretty much the same, though probably less confusing.
2021-01-01T22:55:12Z semz: oh i see
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2021-01-01T22:55:33Z frodef: semz: the penny popped? :)
2021-01-01T22:55:35Z semz: yeah i was the one who misread, sorry
2021-01-01T22:55:57Z Xach: i like that formulation
2021-01-01T22:56:01Z semz: i'm going to shamelessly use this as an argument that my solution trips less people up :-)
2021-01-01T22:56:18Z frodef: semz: I tend to agree :)
2021-01-01T22:59:21Z Xach: you could tweak it slightly to (loop for (item . rest) on list thereis (find item rest ...))?
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2021-01-02T00:37:19Z charles`: When I call "error" it only give me the abort option. if I want options like "continue" or "retry", do I have to make my own condition?
2021-01-02T00:37:47Z frodef: charles`: you have to make your own restarts, rather.
2021-01-02T00:39:34Z frodef: for example: (with-simple-restart (continue "Never mind.") (error "I don't know what to do!"))
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2021-01-02T00:42:18Z Nilby: You can also use cerror if you only want continue.
2021-01-02T00:44:22Z frodef: right, cerror is basically the same as above.
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2021-01-02T00:44:40Z charles`: Thank you a lot
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2021-01-02T00:46:29Z frodef: retry: (loop until (with-simple-restart (retry "Have another go") .. (error "huh?") ... (compute-non-nil-value)))
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2021-01-02T00:55:13Z charles`: and "restart-case" is the right way to define custom restarts
2021-01-02T00:58:39Z frodef: w-s-restart often does the trick, but sometimes restart-case or even restart-bind is the way to go.
2021-01-02T00:59:52Z charles`: and what if I want to use my custom ones with the default continue, should I nest them?
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2021-01-02T01:03:02Z Nilby: If you call a restart ‘continue’ it's the same as the default.
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2021-01-02T01:06:32Z frodef: The function CONTINUE will go to the innermost restart called continue. But any decent interactive debugger will let you chose which exact restart (inner or outer) you want.
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2021-01-02T01:07:53Z frodef: programmatically, see COMPUTE-RESTARTS. You can invoke any one of them, regardless of what they are named.
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2021-01-02T01:10:16Z charles`: so a restart is not much more than a dynamically bound function?
2021-01-02T01:10:50Z frodef: exactly, it's not very magic at all.
2021-01-02T01:12:24Z charles`: And what is the proper way to define them: RESTART-CASE or RESTART-BIND?
2021-01-02T01:12:43Z frodef: The magic is just in the framework, or the ideas behind it. Having proper restarts available can make or a beautiful system.
2021-01-02T01:12:57Z Nilby: but dynamically bound functions are a bit magic, especially in compiled code.
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2021-01-02T01:13:35Z frodef: ... make for ...
2021-01-02T01:14:19Z frodef: Usually RESTART-CASE, but RESTART-BIND if your restart would benefit from the dynamic context of the error.
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2021-01-02T01:15:13Z frodef: ...much like HANDLER-BIND vs. HANDLER-CASE.
2021-01-02T01:16:30Z frodef: These are really some of the most profoundly and uniquely beautiful corners of CL, IHMO.
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2021-01-02T03:57:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-01-02T03:58:34Z oni-on-ion: good morning happy new year !
2021-01-02T03:58:52Z oni-on-ion: (still current here)
2021-01-02T03:59:40Z beach: Thanks.  You too!
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2021-01-02T04:00:05Z sauvin: Ubuntu installed a pile of cl-* files when I installed Common Lisp but I have no idea how to load or use them. Figuring out how to use them is my problem, but could anybody help me with using them and/or with a package manager? Quicklisp doesn't seem to like gcl.
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2021-01-02T04:03:00Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know how to use the Ubuntu (or Debian) packages (though you could always try locate to find them), but you probably don't want to use GCL these days.
2021-01-02T04:03:14Z contrapunctus: sauvin: by 'installed Common Lisp' do you mean installed gcl? What did gcl say that makes you think that Quicklisp doesn't like it?
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2021-01-02T04:03:42Z aeth: I'm not an Ubuntu expert, but you generally don't use the distro packages for languages that have their own package manager. They're mostly for dependencies of things that the distro ships, like e.g. Maxima.
2021-01-02T04:03:48Z aeth: Or maybe pgloader. Or whatever else a distro might ship.
2021-01-02T04:04:13Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, looking at the file listings, they are stored in /usr/share/common-lisp/source/ but I don't know what you do with them. If you installed ASDF from the package manager, it might know to search there for systems, or it might not.
2021-01-02T04:04:15Z aeth: If GCL isn't complete enough to run Quicklisp, it probably can't run any of the libraries, either. e.g. I think its CLOS is incomplete.
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2021-01-02T04:05:45Z sauvin: contrapunctus, it won't load the quicklisp.quicklisp in /usr/share/..../quicklisp, complaining about ASDF.
2021-01-02T04:06:52Z sauvin: aeth, what you're saying is familiar to a perl person. I'll take the risk, but I'd really like to check out this pile of cl-* files that Ubuntu put on the hard drive but I'm at a loss for loading.
2021-01-02T04:07:07Z sauvin: The form (require "asdf") failes.
2021-01-02T04:08:11Z sauvin: The gcl I'm using is 2.6.12, is that not recent enough?
2021-01-02T04:08:53Z sauvin: If this stupid thing vexes me much longer, I'm gonna say "screw you" and start using sbcl.
2021-01-02T04:09:01Z aeth: Why GCL?
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2021-01-02T04:09:34Z sauvin: I _usually_ like gnu stuff and don't know enough about lisp - ANY recent implimentation - to make anything like an informed choice.
2021-01-02T04:09:46Z aeth: I'm under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that GCL was never completed. Even CLISP is a more mature GNU CL, but CLISP hasn't had a release in 10 years.
2021-01-02T04:10:14Z aeth: But generally people use SBCL, CCL, or ECL, I think. A bit of ABCL (on the JVM) in here.
2021-01-02T04:10:38Z sauvin: Hrm, yea, it's been about six years for gcl.
2021-01-02T04:10:49Z contrapunctus: sauvin: this guided me in my choices as a newcomer to the CL world, hope it helps you too - https://github.com/emacs-tw/awesome-emacs
2021-01-02T04:10:58Z aeth: ECL's LGPL, CCL's Apache, SBCL's mostly public domain. They're all GPL-compatible.
2021-01-02T04:11:00Z contrapunctus: Whoops
2021-01-02T04:11:14Z sauvin: contrapunctus, thanks, but I'm not smart enough for emacs. I'm a geany person.
2021-01-02T04:11:17Z contrapunctus: sauvin: this https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl
2021-01-02T04:12:10Z benjamindc: does anyone know why the asdf package-inferred-system class doesn't work with pathname?
2021-01-02T04:12:23Z aeth: GNU has two CLs (CLISP and GCL) and maybe 3-4 Schemes (Guile, Kawa, MIT/GNU, and I'm sure they have another one or two hiding because Schemes are common)...
2021-01-02T04:13:00Z sauvin: aeth, for example gauche, I think it is? :D
2021-01-02T04:13:04Z aeth: but unfortunately, neither of the CLs are that active. CLISP's last release was 10 years ago. GCL's was 6. Meanwhile, SBCL's on a monthly release cycle.
2021-01-02T04:13:21Z benjamindc: Why not use SBCL?
2021-01-02T04:13:34Z sauvin: Again, rank newbie: its REPL has no readline.
2021-01-02T04:13:42Z aeth: rlwrap
2021-01-02T04:14:05Z benjamindc: or sly/slime
2021-01-02T04:14:09Z sauvin: Everything you're telling me, though, suggests I oughta spend a few minutes rethinking my cathexis to gcl.
2021-01-02T04:14:20Z sauvin: slime is also eamcs, no?
2021-01-02T04:14:33Z beach: sauvin: You really should learn Emacs and SLIME.
2021-01-02T04:14:43Z no-defun-allowed: How fast can you say "Eh, maybe not then?" You need about that long to make a decision.
2021-01-02T04:14:51Z beach: sauvin: Programming in Common Lisp without those will make you hate the experience.
2021-01-02T04:15:08Z sauvin: I'm a perl guy. :D
2021-01-02T04:15:14Z no-defun-allowed: There's also...SLIMV for Vim, SLIMA for Atom, and Alive for VS Code.
2021-01-02T04:15:29Z sauvin: Also, I'm a geany guy.
2021-01-02T04:15:33Z benjamindc: sauvin: you know vim keybindings?
2021-01-02T04:15:43Z sauvin: Nope. I've never learned any of the TUI editors.
2021-01-02T04:16:25Z no-defun-allowed: Well, none of the three mentioned other than Vim are really TUI editors.
2021-01-02T04:16:27Z beach: sauvin: I don't know what it means to be a "Perl guy" or any "<tool> guy".  You should learn the tools that will make you the most productive.  It is not personal.
2021-01-02T04:16:55Z benjamindc: Really, Emacs is the best tool for the job for CL programming.
2021-01-02T04:17:01Z oni-on-ion: back in the day all we had was a repl, no fancy editor shenanigans
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2021-01-02T04:17:16Z sauvin: I didn't take it as a personal affront, but one also uses what one knows, especially since this is strictly armchair stuff. My day job is "forklift driver".
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2021-01-02T04:17:30Z beach: oni-on-ion: That was a long time ago.
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2021-01-02T04:17:54Z beach: oni-on-ion: I used Multics Emacs (written in MacLisp) in 1985 or so.
2021-01-02T04:18:00Z aeth: sauvin: https://gitlab.com/-/snippets/2056133
2021-01-02T04:18:14Z aeth: sauvin: I don't remember where I saw the original, but I made a few modifications iirc...
2021-01-02T04:18:34Z beach: sauvin: That is the wrong attitude.  If one always uses what one knows, then one will never learn anything new.
2021-01-02T04:18:36Z oni-on-ion: beach, nice =) 10 years later i was just starting emacs
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2021-01-02T04:18:53Z aeth: sauvin: But I just use the rlwrapped SBCL as a fallback. It's no replacement for SLIME.
2021-01-02T04:19:25Z sauvin: Probably not, but I  think I'll learn a few things about the language itself before simultaneously wrestling with an unfamiliar editor.
2021-01-02T04:19:26Z beach: oni-on-ion: Oh, did I say 1985?  More like 1981.
2021-01-02T04:20:13Z aeth: sauvin: but if you absolutely need built-in readline, then CLISP will probably be a bit less painful than GCL, although it's increasingly common not to support it with libraries
2021-01-02T04:20:15Z sauvin: On the subject of which, is there a way to use emacs lisp without also having to use emacs itself? O:)
2021-01-02T04:20:21Z aeth: (e.g. package local nicknames aren't on CLISP)
2021-01-02T04:20:49Z sauvin: OK, well, small loss. I'll use sbcl.
2021-01-02T04:21:04Z aeth: sauvin: Common Lisp is close enough to Emacs Lisp that there's not much of a need to use it outside of Emacs, although there is an implementation of it in CL iirc.
2021-01-02T04:21:26Z sauvin: I wonder why gcl is lagging so much, though.
2021-01-02T04:21:30Z beach: sauvin: Stepping out of one's comfort zone is part of the learning experience.  The more uncomfortable one feels, the faster the learning.
2021-01-02T04:21:56Z beach: sauvin: GCL is lagging because nobody is working on it.  Nobody is paid to do this stuff.
2021-01-02T04:22:02Z sauvin: Oh, I know this, but I'm an older fella; sometimes, learning too fast isn't very wise.
2021-01-02T04:22:28Z sauvin: beach, that's the FOSS reality. Who's backing sbcl?
2021-01-02T04:23:06Z beach: sauvin: Volunteers.  Convinced by the argument of what's-his-name-again who forked it off of CMUCL.
2021-01-02T04:23:21Z aeth: At least 24 financial contributors, too. https://fundrazr.com/61kPgb?ref=ab_44p9NqQUZKv44p9NqQUZKv
2021-01-02T04:24:06Z benjamindc: sauvin check out portacle https://portacle.github.io
2021-01-02T04:24:09Z beach: sauvin: CMUCL used to be the fastest free Common Lisp implementation, but it was a mess to build.  So this guy forked the code and turned it into SBCL.  And some smart and knowledgeable people were convinced.
2021-01-02T04:24:53Z sauvin: Then maybe the stuff I'd been reading is dated. I didn't pay attention. A couple of online books roasted sbcl as being sub-par and strongly preferred gcl. Didn't understand all the arguments and don't remember most of them.
2021-01-02T04:25:09Z aeth: probably 20 years dated, then?
2021-01-02T04:25:20Z sauvin: Very damn well could be.
2021-01-02T04:25:44Z aeth: circa 2008-2010, a lot of people preferred CLISP to SBCL, but then... CLISP didn't get a release in 10 years and started bitrotting. It's also a slow interpreter rather than a fast compiler.
2021-01-02T04:25:47Z oni-on-ion: beach, yep. i started coding early 90s so most revolutions were before my timev
2021-01-02T04:26:01Z aeth: the good thing about CL is that if you write portable-enough code, it's not too hard to move to whatever's trendy
2021-01-02T04:26:21Z sauvin: That's one of the virtues of an older language.
2021-01-02T04:26:23Z beach: sauvin: The name of the guy who started SBCL is William Newman.
2021-01-02T04:27:24Z sauvin: The actor?
2021-01-02T04:27:48Z beach: I doubt it.
2021-01-02T04:29:27Z sauvin: Jeebus crap, SBCL is is 21 years old and has a stable release just three days ago!?
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2021-01-02T04:29:58Z beach: Monthly releases, yes.
2021-01-02T04:30:26Z aeth: heh, I was thinking "oh, no, it's not that old, it's from the late 90s"
2021-01-02T04:30:54Z sauvin: Right there with ya, pal. I'm a boomer who can't get used to the idea of not being 17 anymore.
2021-01-02T04:31:05Z oni-on-ion: also, SBCL is 2.1 , now its 2021 =)
2021-01-02T04:31:18Z sauvin: dpkg says I have 2.2.mumble.
2021-01-02T04:31:37Z oni-on-ion: that is strange
2021-01-02T04:32:03Z aeth: CCL started in 1984. https://ccl.clozure.com/history.html
2021-01-02T04:32:06Z sauvin: Oh, wait, I might be misreading. The version field from the dpkg listing is 2:2.0.1-3
2021-01-02T04:32:18Z aeth: CMUCL, which SBCL forked from, started in "the early 1980s". https://www.cons.org/cmucl/credits.html
2021-01-02T04:32:36Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised if there's a 1970s (or older?) CL if it started as some other Lisp first.
2021-01-02T04:32:41Z oni-on-ion: mocl is a nice idea
2021-01-02T04:32:42Z sauvin: OK, well, like I said, small loss. As far as lisp is concerned, I'm now an sbcl guy.
2021-01-02T04:33:03Z aeth: The first copyright in ECL is 1984... https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/-/blob/develop/LICENSE
2021-01-02T04:33:14Z sauvin: I can't remember, seems like there was a Kyoto Lisp when I was still swearing at a 286.
2021-01-02T04:33:51Z aeth: Looks like GCL, ECL, and MKCL are all descended from it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Common_Lisp
2021-01-02T04:34:56Z beach: aeth: CMUCL started as Spice Lisp.
2021-01-02T04:35:41Z beach: sauvin: KCL turned into AKCL (Austin-) which turned into GCL.
2021-01-02T04:36:41Z beach: Someone has a diagram of all the Common Lisp history.  Maybe jackdaniel?
2021-01-02T04:37:06Z benjamindc: Does anyone have experience with ASDF package-inferred-system and the :pathname option for defsystem? I'm having an issue where my test system isn't finding packages defined in "test/" even though I've got pathname set.
2021-01-02T04:38:16Z beach: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/History.html
2021-01-02T04:38:24Z oni-on-ion: not sure why this is redacted: https://www.infoq.com/news/2009/04/Lisp-Guy-Steele-Richard-Gabriel/
2021-01-02T04:39:01Z sauvin: beach, that link is a 404 on my end.
2021-01-02T04:39:14Z aeth: benjamindc: if you have a foo/test, then make a test.lisp at the top level that contains a package
2021-01-02T04:39:15Z beach: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/History.html
2021-01-02T04:39:21Z aeth: benjamindc: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/-/blob/2316d43b3a9f9a98325e45fa891b1845e055a5da/tests.lisp
2021-01-02T04:39:31Z sauvin: Ah! Thanks!
2021-01-02T04:39:39Z aeth: benjamindc: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/-/blob/2316d43b3a9f9a98325e45fa891b1845e055a5da/zombie-raptor.asd#L31
2021-01-02T04:40:16Z benjamindc: Thanks aeth!
2021-01-02T04:40:53Z beach: I still don't know what problem package-inferred systems are supposed to solve.  They seem to make everything harder.
2021-01-02T04:41:27Z aeth: jackdaniel: hmm, that history diagram in beach's link doesn't look that good to me... I think it might just be me. I have a dark UI, so it's probably automatically putting it in dark mode in Firefox.
2021-01-02T04:41:54Z aeth: I switched browsers to Chromium (which doesn't use the host's UI, and so uses a light UI, and so doesn't request dark mode CSS) and it's a white background and looks fine
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2021-01-02T04:42:36Z beach: aeth: I think it is just you.  It looks fine in Firefox to me.
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2021-01-02T04:43:00Z aeth: yeah, it's because the image has a transparent background which doesn't go with dark mode, which is automatically selected
2021-01-02T04:43:13Z aeth: since the lines are very close to the dark mode background color
2021-01-02T04:43:22Z beach: Oh, I see.
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2021-01-02T04:43:40Z sauvin: OK, well, dudes, thank you very much for your time. We'll find out if sbcl gives me any less grief than gcl does.
2021-01-02T04:44:12Z beach doesn't think of himself as a "dude". 
2021-01-02T04:44:20Z aeth: sauvin: you're welcome
2021-01-02T04:44:36Z aeth: beach: Whether or not package inferred systems are useful really depends on the problem. I definitely wouldn't use it for every repository, but it seems more useful than not in my game engine.
2021-01-02T04:45:01Z oni-on-ion: with FIrefox i've got to often switch on/off dark mode for sites that break with it on
2021-01-02T04:45:28Z oni-on-ion: (usually background images that somehow become foreground, covering everything0
2021-01-02T04:45:30Z oni-on-ion: )
2021-01-02T04:45:39Z beach: I still don't know what problem they are supposed to solve.  But we have been through this before, and all you could come up with to solve the problems they introduce were more unnecessary complications.
2021-01-02T04:45:52Z beach: aeth: ^
2021-01-02T04:46:04Z benjamindc: beach what do you suggest instead?
2021-01-02T04:46:16Z beach: benjamindc: Not using them?
2021-01-02T04:46:30Z beach: benjamindc: I organize my code into "modules"....
2021-01-02T04:47:11Z beach: benjamindc: Each "module" is in one directory, has one (or two) .asdf file(s), and one (or two) packages.lisp file(s).
2021-01-02T04:47:18Z Nilby: beach: But would you say that automatic dependencies that worked well, would not be desirable?
2021-01-02T04:47:23Z aeth: beach: It makes every file into a system, which means that any file with the same name of a directory also becomes a system, so as a whole it does reduce boilerplate for certain kinds of projects, but it only really works with some of them, not all of them.
2021-01-02T04:47:46Z aeth: Something similar, but with directories instead of files (and the more idiomatic package.lisp in each directory) would probably work more generally.
2021-01-02T04:48:01Z oni-on-ion: oh that sounds useful
2021-01-02T04:48:05Z beach: Nilby: How would one module infer automatically what other modules it depends on?
2021-01-02T04:48:53Z aeth: beach: it parses the defpackage. If you use prefixes, you have it in an IMPORT-FROM with nothing other than the package name iirc. Otherwise, USE (not recommended in most cases) or manually IMPORT-FROM various symbols.
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2021-01-02T04:48:57Z aeth: iirc
2021-01-02T04:48:58Z beach: aeth: Yes, as I said, we have been through this before, and all it would do for me would be to have each file be huge.  And you came up with various fixes for that problem that made everything even more complicated.
2021-01-02T04:49:01Z Nilby: beach: By what symbols it uses, and some heuristics.
2021-01-02T04:49:24Z aeth: Nilby: No, I think it's literally just (:import-from #:alexandria) and now it knows you're using (alexandria:foo)
2021-01-02T04:50:08Z aeth: beach: it's definitely not for every project, I don't use it in my Scheme-in-CL project
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2021-01-02T04:50:25Z aeth: but my game engine's bordering on a "monorepo" so it's very useful there.
2021-01-02T04:50:34Z Nilby: aeth: Yes, but I'm dreaming of something more fully automatic.
2021-01-02T04:50:51Z benjamindc: beach, do you have an example of what you mean that I can check out on gitlab or github?
2021-01-02T04:50:52Z aeth: Nilby: impossible in the general case because of features like EVAL
2021-01-02T04:51:16Z beach: benjamindc: Sure, hold on...
2021-01-02T04:51:29Z beach: benjamindc: Maybe Cluffer.
2021-01-02T04:51:34Z benjamindc: thanks, beach
2021-01-02T04:51:37Z aeth: benjamindc: Idiomatic CL is structured so that there's either a top level package.lisp or a bunch of subdirectories, each with one package.lisp
2021-01-02T04:52:15Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer
2021-01-02T04:53:04Z benjamindc: I'm coming to CL from Clojure and I like the one package per file style as it somewhat maps to clojure's namespaces. But if that's not idiomatic, when I should reasses.
2021-01-02T04:53:19Z beach: I think it's a silly idea.  I mean, setting up a "module" is (or should be) a tiny fraction of the total amount of work on the real code of the module.  And if instead package-inferred systems make the code for the module huge and unmanageable, then what's the point?
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2021-01-02T04:56:28Z no-defun-allowed: I have files that average 40LOC or so; should I make a package for each of them?
2021-01-02T04:56:44Z beach: Exactly!
2021-01-02T04:56:58Z aeth: it really depends on what you're trying to do
2021-01-02T04:56:59Z Nilby: aeth: Some very useful things are impossible in the general case. I don't see it as a problem.
2021-01-02T04:57:01Z no-defun-allowed: And how do I export symbols from each file, in a way that lets me use symbols inside my "modules", but without the user being able to use them?
2021-01-02T04:57:37Z no-defun-allowed: There are a fair few things that I need to use between files, which a user could easily use to break the state of the system.
2021-01-02T04:57:56Z beach: Well put.
2021-01-02T04:58:31Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: Well, I mean, for one, I have a file with 5 lines of code, 4 being the defpackage, in one of my projects that doesn't use package-inferred-system. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/master/scheme-boolean.lisp
2021-01-02T04:58:33Z beach: no-defun-allowed: And I think the answer is that one has to put all the code of the module in one huge file.
2021-01-02T04:58:35Z aeth: So it really depends on the problem...
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2021-01-02T04:59:25Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: Another thing is, you have no real privacy that's not privacy-by-convention in Common Lisp outside of lexical closures. So you change the expectations of certain packages. That is, you have to have "internal" packages that if the user uses directly, you don't guarantee a stable interface.
2021-01-02T04:59:36Z aeth: So you just introduce another convention...
2021-01-02T04:59:42Z no-defun-allowed: beach: It reminds me of when the Java teacher at university told us how having a class Class being in a file Class.java was a good idea. Sure, I know that the definition of stuff in that Class is in that file, but now I just have to find the method I want in a 3kLOC file.
2021-01-02T05:00:19Z aeth: File organization is... very subjective. In the end, you get there by M-.
2021-01-02T05:00:41Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Wow.
2021-01-02T05:00:46Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: If you use internal symbols, you're on your own. There are only a few ways you can break my system from exported symbols, which are mutating sequences I can only tell you that you shouldn't mutate.
2021-01-02T05:01:11Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: And if you use a package in package-inferred-system that's clearly for use by other packages rather than the user, then you're also on your own.
2021-01-02T05:01:29Z no-defun-allowed: At one point, I wished you could pass out immutable "mirrors" of objects somehow, but it would have to be transitive, and it got too messy in my head.
2021-01-02T05:01:40Z aeth: Package-inferred-system encourages "internal" packages more than other styles, but that's an issue that can come up in other places.
2021-01-02T05:02:41Z no-defun-allowed: On the other hand, I have one package with like 100 symbols, and that feels a bit big (here we go again with the disbelief that I wrote 10,000 lines of code and all). But then I remember CLIM defines about a magnitude more symbols, and I don't feel so bad.
2021-01-02T05:03:59Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: It really depends on the domain you're doing. Java treats everything like it's a big, important project that's full of complexity and importance. Most projects aren't like that. trivial-left-pad doesn't need package-inferred-system.
2021-01-02T05:04:32Z aeth: But sometimes, you do a project where that sort of organization makes sense. Where there are a *ton* of files, and they all really need their own package because they do their own thing. E.g. I have a file that deals with SDL2. A file. Nothing else needs to know that SDL2 even exists.
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2021-01-02T05:05:26Z no-defun-allowed: I try to do "one file per concept", which leads to a somewhat pleasing LOC distribution.
2021-01-02T05:05:40Z Nilby is so tired of the old cliché of files and filesystems.
2021-01-02T05:06:12Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, the damned filesystem makes organising code a fair bit harder than it should be.
2021-01-02T05:06:56Z aeth: Well, files are somewhat useful. If you write a bunch of macros with their own functions, and those functions are elaborate, then you probably want those functions to be in another file so you don't have to wrap them in a gigantic, hundreds-of-lines-long EVAL-WHEN.
2021-01-02T05:07:02Z aeth: And... that's it.
2021-01-02T05:07:10Z aeth: Beyond that, it's aesthetics.
2021-01-02T05:07:41Z jeosol:  aeth: I had a conversion with Fare when I was trying to understand the use of :package-inferred-system for a code base. His article seems to suggested it helps compilation for large code bases but I never did a test to verify
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2021-01-02T05:08:17Z aeth: jeosol: It definitely helps CI for very large systems because not everything needs to be tested in the CI. e.g. all of the FFI stuff, if cleanly separated, doesn't need to be loaded.
2021-01-02T05:08:18Z no-defun-allowed uploaded an image: loc-distribution-function.png (41KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/LxrkPifVjClIzILMEKUPbWgl/loc-distribution-function.png >
2021-01-02T05:08:23Z jeosol: I remember I used it in my code base, but like beach said, it can be difficult to work with sometimes, as in some cases, you'd then define another package.lisp file to aggregate everything later on
2021-01-02T05:08:31Z no-defun-allowed: For reference, I graphed the cumulative distribution functions of my largest two codebases.
2021-01-02T05:10:34Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: I tend to prefer 300-1000 lines, but I also have a lot of extremely tiny files, too. Lots of special cases exist as real outliers, too, e.g. tests, which can be 7 lines or infinite.
2021-01-02T05:11:16Z pyc: Follow up question on our discussion on the importance of backward compatibility in the CL community. How did this breakage happen? "Doesn't work with the current version of Hunchentoot anymore!"
2021-01-02T05:11:24Z pyc: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-wiki/
2021-01-02T05:12:19Z no-defun-allowed: It would be nice if they said why.
2021-01-02T05:12:29Z jeosol: aeth: I do have some 1000 loc files. Sometimes I want to break them but it will be more of a hassle as related functions are not together then.
2021-01-02T05:12:54Z benjamindc: jeosol, do you have a link to his article?
2021-01-02T05:13:12Z jeosol: what article?
2021-01-02T05:13:20Z jeosol: you mean Fare's?
2021-01-02T05:13:23Z benjamindc: yeah
2021-01-02T05:14:19Z oni-on-ion: scratch.lisp
2021-01-02T05:14:20Z jeosol: ok, let me see if I can pull it up. For context, I had a large system and I was running into issues where I wanted things to load faster and Fare suggested to look into that, and also some and to look at the dependency graph
2021-01-02T05:16:02Z jeosol: benjamindc: http://fare.tunes.org/files/asdf3/asdf3-2014.html#%28part._asdf-package-system%29
2021-01-02T05:16:11Z jeosol: See section 2.10 for package-inferred-system
2021-01-02T05:16:55Z jeosol: The second to last paragraph is the statement about "scaling" but I never verified this
2021-01-02T05:16:59Z benjamindc: thank you
2021-01-02T05:19:27Z aeth: jeosol: Oh, it probably *reloads* faster
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2021-01-02T05:19:48Z aeth: Since it'll only reload the file you modified and the files that depend on it.
2021-01-02T05:19:52Z jeosol: aeth: may be that's what it is.
2021-01-02T05:20:14Z jeosol: I did notice that, when I changed a few, only the file that's change is reload
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2021-01-02T05:20:24Z aeth: I do notice that zombie-raptor loads faster than airship-scheme when it's not a from scratch load (so not e.g. a new version of SBCL)
2021-01-02T05:20:31Z aeth: Even though zombie-raptor is larger.
2021-01-02T05:21:49Z jeosol: aeth: I would think that's one of the benefit - at least what I observed
2021-01-02T05:24:19Z jeosol: I looked at your zombie-raptor link I realized I did something similar, have the separate files, then aggregate with a common package and use-reexport later.
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2021-01-02T05:24:48Z aeth: yeah, that's because having directory-level modularity makes a lot of sense
2021-01-02T05:25:00Z aeth: It's very monorepo
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2021-01-02T05:25:26Z aeth: The only reason I spun off zr-utils is because it would be strange for airship-scheme to either (1) depend on a game engine or (2) actually be hosted in a game engine monorepo
2021-01-02T05:25:43Z jeosol: aeth: makes sense
2021-01-02T05:26:07Z jeosol: I remember the airship-scheme project you mentioned before, how is that coming along
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2021-01-02T05:26:26Z aeth: I'm taking a bit of a break from it now that the reader, which took longer than I had expected, is done
2021-01-02T05:26:42Z aeth: it wound up being 1024 lines :-/
2021-01-02T05:26:43Z benjamindc: I just keep getting this error when trying to run (asdf:test-system "ramsay") even though the file lexer.lisp is in the test dir. Component "ramsay/test/lexer" not found, required by #<PACKAGE-INFERRED-SYSTEM "ramsay/test">
2021-01-02T05:26:43Z jeosol: that's good. Allow the brain cells to heal ...
2021-01-02T05:27:04Z aeth: I do multiple projects so I can cycle between them when there's a good breaking point so I don't burn out of them
2021-01-02T05:27:14Z jeosol: benjamindc: can you paste the *.asd file
2021-01-02T05:27:23Z no-defun-allowed: Most of the time, I reload with C-c C-c; only reloading when I replace a macro or something more invasive.
2021-01-02T05:27:25Z benjamindc: ;;;; ramsay.asd
2021-01-02T05:27:25Z benjamindc: (defsystem #:ramsay
2021-01-02T05:27:25Z benjamindc:   :description "Lisp like language for the EVM"
2021-01-02T05:27:25Z benjamindc:   :author "benjamin cassidy <benjamin@cassidy.io>"
2021-01-02T05:27:28Z benjamindc:   :license  "GPL-3.0"
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2021-01-02T05:27:32Z benjamindc:   :version "0.0.1"
2021-01-02T05:27:36Z benjamindc:   :class :package-inferred-system
2021-01-02T05:27:40Z benjamindc:   :pathname "src/"
2021-01-02T05:27:40Z benjamindc:   :depends-on ("alexandria"
2021-01-02T05:27:43Z benjamindc:                "ramsay/lexer")
2021-01-02T05:27:44Z jeosol: aeth: I think that's a good strategy, I working on multiple projects too,
2021-01-02T05:27:46Z benjamindc:   :in-order-to ((test-op (test-op "ramsay/test"))))
2021-01-02T05:27:49Z benjamindc:  
2021-01-02T05:27:52Z benjamindc: (defsystem #:ramsay/test
2021-01-02T05:27:56Z benjamindc:   :class :package-inferred-system
2021-01-02T05:27:56Z no-defun-allowed: Hey, use a paste or copy the link please.
2021-01-02T05:27:59Z benjamindc:   :depends-on ("rove" "ramsay" "ramsay/test/lexer")
2021-01-02T05:28:00Z jeosol: benjamindc: use pastebin, its better
2021-01-02T05:28:02Z benjamindc:   :perform (test-op (o c) (symbol-call :rove :run c)))
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2021-01-02T05:28:06Z benjamindc:  
2021-01-02T05:28:13Z benjamindc: sorry :(
2021-01-02T05:28:20Z benjamindc: will use pastebin in the future
2021-01-02T05:28:21Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: I'm talking about QL:QUICKLOAD, though. When you have a large project, you could go months without touching 80% of it, and unless you touched the core stuff that everything else depends on, that means you can go months without compiling almost 80% of it... unless you update SBCL monthly.
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2021-01-02T05:28:52Z no-defun-allowed: So, is every file a component in ASDF?
2021-01-02T05:29:18Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, that's generally true, not just for package-inferred-system.
2021-01-02T05:29:45Z no-defun-allowed: If I had said "system" or "module" or something, and it was true, then I'd wonder how long (ql:register-local-projects) would take, when scanning SICL takes a good 20 seconds.
2021-01-02T05:30:43Z jeosol: aeth: 1024 lines is not bad. I once had a component, 3d graphical ray tracing, took me a month to complete for a challenge (circa 2017) - early days. The guys over at comp.lang.lisp helped a lot
2021-01-02T05:32:05Z jeosol: aeth: I have to work on something with python pandas last few days, dealing with python version hell drove me mad. I wished I could have used some CL library for the data manipulation piece
2021-01-02T05:32:49Z jeosol: I think the vellum library is a step in that direction, and clml
2021-01-02T05:33:34Z no-defun-allowed: I get uncomfortable around 200 to 250 lines.
2021-01-02T05:34:10Z jeosol: if not for M-. , it will definitely be hard to work with large files
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2021-01-02T05:37:23Z aeth: jeosol: for me what bothers me with that sort of thing is Jupyter... Everything will be fine until I need to run it again because of the implicit state in the out-of-order evaluation of the cells that I did while programming it.
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2021-01-02T05:37:38Z aeth: That and it's frustratingly missing certain features like a spellchecker or an integrated linter (and you need a linter when you run Python)
2021-01-02T05:38:00Z aeth: (Plus, I like Emacs keys)
2021-01-02T05:38:22Z no-defun-allowed: Hypothetically, you could use the reads and writes each cell makes to topologically sort them, but that requires hooks in places no real Common Lisp implementation gives you.
2021-01-02T05:38:23Z jeosol: out-of-order is a pain in jupyter notebooks for sure.
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2021-01-02T05:39:29Z aeth: Something based in CL probably could implement a similar literate-programming thing in a smarter way than Jupyter (since CL already expects things to be redefined constantly), where it would make sure that running it from start-to-finish still produces the current results or something.
2021-01-02T05:40:33Z jeosol: i guess the cl-jupyter is the same issue right? I followed a clml tutorial. It's probably just to show things I suppose, I also tried to use VS code for it. The workflow is certainly not easy
2021-01-02T05:40:57Z jeosol: The problem with the project if implemented in CL, is that client may complain that they don't understand it if they need to take it over
2021-01-02T05:43:07Z oni-on-ion: aeth, CL-listener ?
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2021-01-02T06:50:07Z solideogloria[m]: Why does `cl-json` parse the string "!BFYazLCNOAsYDPxIDn:matrix.org" as the symbol !+BF+-YAZ-+LCNO+-AS-+YD+-PX-I-DN:MATRIX.ORG
2021-01-02T06:51:50Z no-defun-allowed: cl-json only interns keys, from memory. But if you're using it to parse Matrix events, then the number of keys isn't finite, so you probably want to use another library, like jsown.
2021-01-02T06:52:13Z no-defun-allowed: But some parsers treat a key a:b as the symbol printed as a:b; I think there was also another XML parser that did that.
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2021-01-02T06:55:43Z saturn2: you can override that by binding json:*json-identifier-name-to-lisp* and json:*identifier-name-to-key* to #'identity
2021-01-02T06:57:54Z aeth: solideogloria[m]: that's a camelCase to hyphen translation.
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2021-01-02T07:00:29Z solideogloria[m]: got it saturn2
2021-01-02T07:00:50Z loke[m]: I tend to use st-json
2021-01-02T07:01:13Z loke[m]: It uses strings as keys, which is better (no risk of intern attacks with untrusted data).
2021-01-02T07:01:27Z loke[m]: Also, it allows you to define custom datatype converters.
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2021-01-02T07:07:45Z jackdaniel: beach: this image is more complete https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/quarterly/img/vol4/all-hierarchy.png
2021-01-02T07:07:55Z jackdaniel: the one you have linked illustrates only ecl family and influences
2021-01-02T07:10:48Z beach: Ah, OK, thanks!
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2021-01-02T07:18:03Z jackdaniel: sure
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2021-01-02T08:04:56Z solideogloria[m]: loke: st-json looks like a better choice
2021-01-02T08:04:57Z solideogloria[m]: thanks
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2021-01-02T08:50:41Z oni-on-ion: what is stored in the [sbcl] lisp image? just compiled code?
2021-01-02T08:51:40Z beach: Documentation strings.
2021-01-02T08:51:48Z beach: Lambda lists.
2021-01-02T08:52:02Z beach: Maybe some FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSIONs
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2021-01-02T08:53:53Z beach: Various objects, like classes, generic functions, symbols, packages.
2021-01-02T08:55:14Z oni-on-ion: ahh right. hmm
2021-01-02T08:55:14Z beach: And if you are not restricted to SBCL, in SICL, I store the entire source text of all the code that has been loaded into the image.
2021-01-02T08:55:25Z oni-on-ion: oh nice ! great!
2021-01-02T08:55:31Z no-defun-allowed: I think everything in memory (after a full GC).
2021-01-02T08:55:32Z oni-on-ion: oh oh: "Cannot save core with multiple threads running."
2021-01-02T08:56:05Z saturn2: you can see what's in your lisp image with (room t)
2021-01-02T08:56:07Z oni-on-ion: no-defun-allowed, i wonder what an 'empty' session would have as live objects? aside from classes, packages, symbols etc.
2021-01-02T08:56:07Z beach: oni-on-ion: I use the source text for reporting errors and warnings, and for backtraces.
2021-01-02T08:56:22Z oni-on-ion: saturn2, oh cool
2021-01-02T08:57:20Z beach: oni-on-ion: Methods and generic functions are objects, and there may be data structures involved for organizing those.  Most certainly, you have hash tables in your package objects and such.
2021-01-02T08:57:30Z oni-on-ion: ROOM is awesome. so on a plain start, it takes about 100Mb ram? (Summary Total)
2021-01-02T08:58:05Z beach: oni-on-ion: Method combinations involve data structures as well.
2021-01-02T08:58:13Z oni-on-ion: beach, hmm yes i see. have you played around with Squeak at all? having the source in the image allows for some very useful things. like ChangeSet
2021-01-02T08:59:12Z beach: I have not used Squeak, but my experience from staring at compiler output from SBCL and trying to match it to source code made me think about other ways of doing it.
2021-01-02T08:59:41Z oni-on-ion: beach, ahh, never had thought of CLOS. i mistakenly think it is bare knuckles, i had been accustomed to the seperation of FoundationKit and AppKit from other lands
2021-01-02T08:59:53Z oni-on-ion: beach, nice. good =)
2021-01-02T09:00:01Z beach: Thanks.
2021-01-02T09:00:37Z beach: Common Lisp being a dynamic language, lots of stuff must be kept track of to allow for incremental updates to the image.
2021-01-02T09:00:44Z oni-on-ion: can't save image with threads, i dont know
2021-01-02T09:00:58Z oni-on-ion: yep - Squeak/Smalltalk is similar in that regard
2021-01-02T09:01:29Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-02T09:02:22Z no-defun-allowed: 100 megabits? After compression, a SBCL image is about 100 megabits on disk.
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2021-01-02T09:03:06Z beach: Tiny.
2021-01-02T09:03:12Z no-defun-allowed: (save-lisp-and-die "foo" :executable t :compression 9) gives me a 96 megabit image.
2021-01-02T09:03:55Z shka_: who measures disk space in bits?
2021-01-02T09:04:19Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: After making sure not to load Quicklisp, (room) tells me I'm using about 25MB of dynamic space, and 12.8MB of immobile space. The rest is negligible.
2021-01-02T09:04:32Z no-defun-allowed: shka_: Well, oni-on-ion measured 100 megabits of RAM.
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2021-01-02T09:09:39Z Nilby: When you compare the size of a CL image to most other program binaries, make sure to add the size of most shared libraries, the compiler tool chain, and the debugger.
2021-01-02T09:10:38Z no-defun-allowed: No need - appimages and Electron programs blow most CL images out of the water in terms of size.
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2021-01-02T09:33:42Z sauvin: beach, everybody, you were right: sbcl is a better choice.
2021-01-02T09:34:29Z beach: Great!
2021-01-02T09:35:28Z sauvin: I poked around the nets for a while looking at all kinds of different things regarding lisp, then remembered I wanted quicklisp, so, I fired up sbcl, loaded the quicklisp.lisp file and it just took right off. Slicker than CPAN.
2021-01-02T09:36:01Z beach: Sounds like you're in business then.  Good.
2021-01-02T09:37:38Z sauvin: I think so. A beginner doesn't need to have to try to wrestle with the language implimentation while he's still trying to figure out how to say "sub stuff { 3.14159 * 2**$_[0]}" or "sub chunk { [ split ] }"
2021-01-02T09:38:33Z beach: What on earth is that?  Line noise?
2021-01-02T09:39:26Z sauvin: It's perl, you semiliterate LUNK!
2021-01-02T09:40:24Z no-defun-allowed: Whoa, that's rude.
2021-01-02T09:40:25Z sauvin: I've been perling (strictly on an armchair basis, mind) for about twenty years. Lisp gonna be a new way to think.
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2021-01-02T09:41:31Z saturn2: (defun stuff (x) (* 3.14159 (expt 2 x)) the other one doesn't quite have a direct equivalent
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2021-01-02T09:42:04Z no-defun-allowed: "a new way to think" is the wrong way to approach it, in my opinion. Writing in Lisp is frequently "the way I wanted to think about it", except for the times in which it isn't, but those times are much less frequent.
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2021-01-02T09:42:06Z sauvin: Direct, maybe not, but it's what got me wanting libraries to begin with. I didn't want to have to come up with a BASIC-like equivalent.
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2021-01-02T09:43:12Z VincentVega: is there some trick to specify synonyms in &key?
2021-01-02T09:43:32Z no-defun-allowed: What would you consider a synonym?
2021-01-02T09:43:47Z VincentVega: :w and :width for instance
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2021-01-02T09:44:24Z VincentVega: in initialize-instance for some geometric object
2021-01-02T09:44:53Z VincentVega: so far i just do (... &key (w nil) (width nil)) and check for mutual exclusivity but it's a runtime check
2021-01-02T09:45:16Z VincentVega: and the defaults aren't obvious
2021-01-02T09:45:27Z Nilby: a repl or editor that does :w<tab> -> :width
2021-01-02T09:45:59Z saturn2: i'm not aware of any such trick
2021-01-02T09:46:42Z Nilby: but if you really want to parse synonyms for the keys with &rest yourself, you can
2021-01-02T09:46:57Z Nilby: and even make a macro for it
2021-01-02T09:47:46Z VincentVega: yeah ok
2021-01-02T09:48:08Z saturn2: you could write your own object making function with a compiler macro for the compile time check
2021-01-02T09:48:48Z Alfr_: Nilby, which editor does that? And not also suggesting all keywords starting with w ?
2021-01-02T09:49:16Z VincentVega: a macro like that actually sounds pretty interesting
2021-01-02T09:49:21Z no-defun-allowed: I think sticking to the long names is a good idea, generally.
2021-01-02T09:50:21Z Nilby: Probably emacs w/SLY/SIME, vim w/VLIME or something, vs code with some lisp extension, etc. but I don't know since I use my own thing.
2021-01-02T09:50:35Z no-defun-allowed: For geometric objects, w, h, x and y can be assumed to be width, height, X and Y positions, but it's usually nicer to use full names when someone else is supposed to look at a lambda-list and guess what they can call your functions with.
2021-01-02T09:51:41Z VincentVega: no-defun-allowed: i see your point there (sorry for the pun)
2021-01-02T09:52:00Z no-defun-allowed: That was a recurring theme in a funny Usenet thread I read, in which the verbosity of many Common Lisp libraries is supposed to be a problem (as it apparently is bad for "scripting").
2021-01-02T09:52:31Z Alfr_: Nilby, hm. I must have somehow misconfigured slime.
2021-01-02T09:53:22Z no-defun-allowed: If you write (make-instance 'some-class, then SLIME will pop up with a lambda list like (&key this-initarg that-initarg ...) ;; and because unbalanced parens tick me off )
2021-01-02T09:56:01Z Alfr_: I mean it's doesn't complete :e<TAB> to :element-type for make-array for me.
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2021-01-02T09:58:04Z no-defun-allowed: Here, I have to press C-M-i (or ESC TAB or M-TAB, whatever floats your boat) to complete, unless I'm in the REPL, as TAB indents.
2021-01-02T09:58:49Z Nilby: Alfr_: I just tried it with no configuration on emacs 25.2 and slime 2.26 from melpa. But I'm probably not the person to ask, since I don't use it. SLIME doesn't come close to working on my real configuration.
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2021-01-02T09:59:50Z Nilby: oh and most recent sbcl
2021-01-02T10:04:04Z Alfr_: Nilby, after removing slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol from slime-completion-at-point-functions it works here as well. Thank you. :)
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2021-01-02T10:09:58Z Nilby: Alfr_: Nice! I've saved myself many hours of pointless work by always trying stuff in a clean setup first.
2021-01-02T10:13:14Z Alfr_: For that one has to know how it's supposed to work in the first place and until you mentioned it, I didn't.
2021-01-02T10:15:36Z Nilby: I usually just think what I want it to do, and figure somebody must have already done it.
2021-01-02T10:16:48Z Nilby: and if not someone on #lisp will usually know
2021-01-02T10:19:51Z Nilby: When I used to work on emacs the philosophy was, most of your code that isn't docstring should be written by <tab> completion. Snippets really help with that too.
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2021-01-02T14:35:36Z beach: Xach: Do you still check Quicklisp systems with SICL LOOP?  I am asking because Alexandria contains two illegal LOOP forms.
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2021-01-02T14:37:25Z ebrasca: beach: what do you mean with "illegal LOOP forms"?
2021-01-02T14:37:54Z beach: It violates the clause order defined by the standard.
2021-01-02T14:38:28Z beach: Oh, wait, it has been fixed.  I just need to update my Alexandria distribution.
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2021-01-02T14:40:43Z beach: So how do I update a single distribution in Quicklisp?
2021-01-02T14:41:15Z phoe: (ql:update-dist "quicklisp")
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2021-01-02T14:41:53Z beach: It is Alexandria that I want to update.
2021-01-02T14:42:09Z phoe: it's not a distribution, it's a system
2021-01-02T14:42:24Z beach: Oh?  OK, sorry.
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2021-01-02T14:43:07Z beach: It is under "dists" in ~/quicklisp
2021-01-02T14:43:27Z phoe: no, under "dists" is most likely "quicklisp"
2021-01-02T14:43:32Z phoe: and only then there's alexandria
2021-01-02T14:43:44Z phoe: unless you have a separate alexandria dist, which would be the first time I've seen one!
2021-01-02T14:43:52Z beach: Right you are.
2021-01-02T14:44:00Z phoe: anyway - I'd clone alexandria into your local-projects and checkout whatever commit you need
2021-01-02T14:44:28Z phoe: that'll take precedence over whatever quicklisp downloads for you
2021-01-02T14:44:36Z beach: Are you saying I can't update just Alexandria in Quicklisp?
2021-01-02T14:45:36Z beach: I guess I could update everything.
2021-01-02T14:45:44Z beach: Some stuff will break as usual.
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2021-01-02T14:47:01Z phoe: yes, you cannot easily update just system X in quicklisp
2021-01-02T14:47:11Z phoe: quicklisp dists are snapshots of multiple projects built together
2021-01-02T14:47:12Z beach: Got it.
2021-01-02T14:47:19Z phoe: at least the standard dists, that is
2021-01-02T14:47:20Z beach: Might as well bite the bullet now.
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2021-01-02T14:47:55Z loke[m]: beach: When was the last time you did a QL update?
2021-01-02T14:48:03Z beach: I don't remember.
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2021-01-02T14:48:21Z beach: But things did break, as predicted.
2021-01-02T14:49:22Z beach: Oh, well.
2021-01-02T14:49:45Z loke[m]: It's easier to deal with if one updates every time QL updates.
2021-01-02T14:50:15Z beach: Yes, but I don't want to deal with it at all.
2021-01-02T14:50:22Z beach: I need a system administrator.
2021-01-02T14:51:22Z beach: This is going to be hell, as predicted again.
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2021-01-02T14:58:25Z troydm: I have a weird thing going with jsonrpc on MacOS and inside bordeaux thread
2021-01-02T14:58:46Z troydm: if I bind to a port inside a thread jsonrpc:server-listen is not working
2021-01-02T14:58:47Z phoe: beach: need help?
2021-01-02T14:59:02Z troydm: however if I bind to a port in main thread, everything works fine
2021-01-02T14:59:04Z beach: phoe: That would be great.
2021-01-02T14:59:13Z beach: phoe: Shall we do it in #sicl?
2021-01-02T14:59:17Z troydm: I'm using SBCL 2.0.11 on MacOS
2021-01-02T15:00:17Z phoe: beach: OK
2021-01-02T15:00:28Z phoe: troydm: sounds like some deal with dynamic variables
2021-01-02T15:00:30Z phoe: these are thread-local
2021-01-02T15:01:19Z troydm: doesn't seem so, as only variables that are used inside thread is global *server* and local port
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2021-01-02T15:02:39Z troydm: basicly what I'm doing is debugging why https://github.com/cxxxr/cl-lsp is not working on MacOS as expected, as when I start cl-lsp with args tcp 10003
2021-01-02T15:02:44Z troydm: it doesn't binds to a port
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2021-01-02T15:03:12Z troydm: moving jsonrpc:server-listen call outside of bt:make-thread makes it work fine
2021-01-02T15:03:49Z troydm: I'm using this cl-lsp fork https://github.com/ailisp/cl-lsp
2021-01-02T15:04:15Z troydm: but it doesn't seems like it's something cl-lsp related, more probably related to jsonrpc and bordeaux-threads
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2021-01-02T15:18:16Z phoe: "Value of 'NIL in (THE NIL (PROGN 'NIL)) is NIL, not a NIL."
2021-01-02T15:18:20Z phoe: poetry
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2021-01-02T15:29:38Z contrapunctus: phoe: wat
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2021-01-02T15:33:48Z phoe: contrapunctus: (ql:quickload :cl-unicode) on my machine
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2021-01-02T15:44:34Z troydm: after ton of debugging, found the root cause of the problem
2021-01-02T15:45:02Z phoe: troydm: what was it?
2021-01-02T15:45:37Z troydm: it seems like jsonrpc is designed this way that when you bind a server on tcp it needs to load (ql:quickload "jsonrpc/transport/tcp" :silent t)
2021-01-02T15:45:52Z troydm: but this gets stuck if it runs inside bt thread
2021-01-02T15:45:58Z troydm: I don't know why it gets stuck
2021-01-02T15:46:01Z troydm: but it gets stuck
2021-01-02T15:46:14Z troydm: maybe I'm using older quickload
2021-01-02T15:46:21Z troydm: I'm not sure
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2021-01-02T15:49:24Z phoe: weird architecture
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2021-01-02T16:10:58Z Xach: beach: i have not tried in a while
2021-01-02T16:12:36Z troydm: opened an issue for this https://github.com/cxxxr/jsonrpc/issues/27
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2021-01-02T16:26:19Z SpaceIgor2075: Hello! Can anybody recommend any resources to learn about modules,packages, asdf and projects? i am a newbie
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2021-01-02T16:26:35Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: yes, one second
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2021-01-02T16:26:40Z SpaceIgor2075: (a CL newbie)
2021-01-02T16:26:46Z phoe: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf <- this one is a first
2021-01-02T16:26:54Z phoe: it has an unfortunate title but pretty good content
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2021-01-02T16:27:23Z phoe: once you've absorbed this document and played in the REPL with the knowledge you've gained this way, please come back for a bit more about ASDF, systems, and projects
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2021-01-02T16:30:15Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: Thanks.
2021-01-02T16:30:32Z SpaceIgor2075: (This title is awesome, i love it)
2021-01-02T16:31:00Z phoe: (depends on the person; some people like the sarcasm, some are allergic to it)
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2021-01-02T16:32:33Z Xach: i don't like its POV of "isn't this dumb system dumb? well, here's how it works" - I'd prefer an explanation from someone with less contempt for it.
2021-01-02T16:32:53Z Xach: IIRC the explanation in PCL is ok
2021-01-02T16:33:11Z phoe: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html
2021-01-02T16:33:22Z phoe: yes, I see
2021-01-02T16:33:53Z beach: Xach: It's OK.  I see Alexandria fixed the incorrect clause order.  That's all I need for now.
2021-01-02T16:34:33Z Xach: beach: whenever i increase strictness (by updating my sbcl), something that is 5-10 years since last maintenance breaks
2021-01-02T16:34:58Z Xach: the current problem is a widely-used library named "access" which uses function designators wrong
2021-01-02T16:35:12Z beach: I can very well imagine.
2021-01-02T16:35:36Z phoe: Xach: is it possible for you to also test on high safety/debug settings? this exposes bugs that are not exposed otherwise, like this cl-unicode bug that I just encountered
2021-01-02T16:36:03Z phoe: can I anyhow help with this process if help is needed?
2021-01-02T16:36:08Z Xach: phoe: oh, that would be interesting
2021-01-02T16:36:26Z phoe: Xach: see https://github.com/edicl/cl-unicode/issues/25 for some poetry
2021-01-02T16:36:40Z phoe: only seems to appear with SBCL compiler restricted to debug 3 safety 3.
2021-01-02T16:37:07Z phoe: it's fixed now, but the unpatched version is in the current dist
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2021-01-02T16:39:29Z beach: Oh, so you tried it with lower safety?  And it passed?
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2021-01-02T16:46:33Z Xach gives hi debug/safety a try
2021-01-02T16:47:10Z phoe: beach: yes
2021-01-02T16:47:21Z phoe: on default optimization settings it seems no error is generated
2021-01-02T16:47:52Z phoe: I assume that is why this cl-unicode issue was not noticed by Xach when preparing the QL distribution
2021-01-02T16:48:02Z beach: Yes, I see.
2021-01-02T16:48:25Z phoe: obviously we need to lower our expectations about safety to properly use cl-unicode
2021-01-02T16:48:28Z beach: Definitely a good idea to test systems that way then.
2021-01-02T16:48:39Z beach: Heh, no way!
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2021-01-02T16:49:04Z phoe: no unicode for you then, you must make-do with ISO-8859-1
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2021-01-02T16:49:16Z beach: :(
2021-01-02T16:49:43Z phoe: (or download the patched version, which seems that you have already done)
2021-01-02T16:49:52Z beach: Indeed.
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2021-01-02T16:51:09Z heisig: In case anyone is wondering, the correct way to restrict SBCL's compiler policy is (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 3).
2021-01-02T16:52:21Z heisig: (Just posting it here, because I didn't know it some time ago)
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2021-01-02T17:11:00Z VincentVega: guys, i am reading the cl-containers docs for red-black trees and don't get one thing: is there really no function to find the closest element to a given or am i just not seeing it?
2021-01-02T17:11:04Z VincentVega: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-containers/documentation/metabang.cl-containers-package/class-red--black--tree.html
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2021-01-02T17:23:05Z ck_: VincentVega: what about best-item ?
2021-01-02T17:26:22Z VincentVega: ck_: i think best item computes the function on each node
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2021-01-02T17:27:32Z ck_: yes, looks that way. It depends on what you mean by 'closest' then. If you're looking for something like a range test for the ordering that the tree uses.. well I don't see one either
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2021-01-02T17:28:26Z VincentVega: ck_: yep, that one : )
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2021-01-02T17:30:29Z ck_: looks like you get to implement your own tree walking then, have fun
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2021-01-02T17:31:33Z VincentVega: ck_: looks like it, thanks for the sanity check!
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2021-01-02T17:35:03Z ck_: if you need this type of look-up often or mostly, maybe a different data structure would be a better choice
2021-01-02T17:35:31Z ck_: an Interval Tree for example
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2021-01-02T17:37:24Z SpaceIgor2075: is (set 'x 13) equivalent to (setq x 13)?
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2021-01-02T17:38:15Z VincentVega: ck_: nah, it's for some occasional queries, so it's cool : )
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2021-01-02T17:38:47Z Xach: SpaceIgor2075: no
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2021-01-02T17:39:17Z Xach: SpaceIgor2075: consider (let ((x 42)) (setq x 13))
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2021-01-02T18:21:29Z benjamindc: IS there a way to get "(asdf:test-system "system")" to return an exit code of 1 when executed in a script for CI pipelines?
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2021-01-02T18:24:47Z phoe: benjamindc: the convention is generally that if asdf:test-system signals an error, then it has failed
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2021-01-02T18:25:56Z phoe: so you can do it like (handler-bind ((error (lambda (x) (print x) (print stacktrace) (exit 1)))) (asdf:test-system :foo) (exit 0))
2021-01-02T18:29:27Z aeth: benjamindc: In general, just ignore asdf:test-system in CI pipelines and just directly use the non-portable return value of whatever test suite you're using. ASDF doesn't want to have asdf:test-system return a non-portable return value, making it near-useless for CI
2021-01-02T18:29:58Z aeth: phoe's answer is the correct answer, but it winds up being like 5 lines of code just to return something that your test suite already returns that asdf:test-system is blocking...
2021-01-02T18:31:12Z aeth: (non-portable as in not portable between test suites)
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2021-01-02T18:34:15Z aeth: benjamindc: Sorry, phoe's answer is almost the correct answer. You want to exit with (uiop:quit 1)
2021-01-02T18:34:23Z benjamindc: aeth are you using a custom test suite for your zombi-raptor library?
2021-01-02T18:34:49Z aeth: no, but I'm not very happy with any of them having used almost all of them in different projects of mine over the years
2021-01-02T18:35:04Z aeth: if you merged them all together you might have a decent feature set :-p
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2021-01-02T18:40:28Z benjamindc: aeth i follow your advice, but my script returns 0 when there are failing tests: https://pastebin.com/zgKD6F4n
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2021-01-02T18:42:13Z phoe: depends on your test framework
2021-01-02T18:42:32Z phoe: if your test framework returns gracefully when you run the test suite and there are failures, then you get what you see
2021-01-02T18:42:49Z benjamindc: curses
2021-01-02T18:42:49Z aeth: benjamindc: most of them return the number of failed tests or can be configured to do so
2021-01-02T18:42:50Z phoe: you'll need to analyze the results manually and if there are any failures then you'll need to (exit 1)
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2021-01-02T18:43:16Z benjamindc: alright. thanks for the advice
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2021-01-02T20:17:02Z emma: Not exactly lisp but do any of you enjoy electronic music like trance, house, or techno?
2021-01-02T20:17:28Z phoe gently guides the discussion to #lispcafe
2021-01-02T20:17:45Z phoe: I think there will be some people in there who'd like to indulge in that discussion
2021-01-02T20:17:48Z phoe: (possibly including me)
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2021-01-02T21:35:50Z Xach: phoe: building with safety 3/debug 3 is a lot slower
2021-01-02T21:36:30Z phoe: Xach: hmmm
2021-01-02T21:36:47Z phoe: I can imagine the generated code must contain much more debug information and runtime checks
2021-01-02T21:36:50Z Xach: almost done though
2021-01-02T21:36:59Z phoe: possibly that's why generating it is slower, too
2021-01-02T21:37:05Z phoe: but it's just speculation on my side
2021-01-02T21:37:22Z phoe: did that uncover any new issues so far?
2021-01-02T21:37:49Z Xach: no report until the end
2021-01-02T21:38:00Z phoe wiggles in anticipation
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2021-01-02T21:49:29Z Xach: almost at the end
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2021-01-02T21:57:42Z Xach: phoe: http://report.quicklisp.org/2021-01-02/failure-report.html has the report but there's a lot of noise from the things sbcl broke recently
2021-01-02T21:58:11Z Xach: but some other things are in there too
2021-01-02T21:58:18Z Xach: gtirb breakage seems new
2021-01-02T21:58:24Z phoe: Unhandled SIMPLE-CONDITION in thread #<SB-THREAD:THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {1001A50103}>: break
2021-01-02T21:58:28Z phoe: well
2021-01-02T21:59:22Z phoe: The constant MINUTES-PER-INTERNAL-TIME-UNIT is being redefined (from 1.6666668e-8 to 1.6666666e-8)
2021-01-02T21:59:25Z phoe: this one is interesting
2021-01-02T21:59:44Z phoe: there's lots of those
2021-01-02T21:59:47Z Xach: yes
2021-01-02T21:59:59Z Xach: i don't get the increased # of arithmetic error COMMON-LISP:FLOATING-POINT-INVALID-OPERATION signalled
2021-01-02T22:00:45Z Xach: I don't know if the "unknown type specifier" errors are sbcl or debug/safety
2021-01-02T22:01:00Z phoe: floating-point-invalid-operation? hmmmmm
2021-01-02T22:01:09Z phoe: which SBCL did you build on?
2021-01-02T22:01:11Z phoe: current master?
2021-01-02T22:01:36Z Xach: phoe: not quite current.  2.0.11.142-1b0795826 (it's at the top of the report)
2021-01-02T22:01:43Z phoe: oh
2021-01-02T22:01:52Z phoe: the current master includes some floating point stuff that me and mfiano have coerced stassats into adding
2021-01-02T22:01:57Z phoe: so it's good that it's not because of this
2021-01-02T22:02:09Z phoe: oh
2021-01-02T22:02:31Z phoe: it's trying to #'< two NaNs
2021-01-02T22:02:50Z phoe: or rather, it's trying to make a numeric type with NaNs...
2021-01-02T22:03:00Z Xach: Which?
2021-01-02T22:03:04Z phoe: http://report.quicklisp.org/2021-01-02/failure-report/gtirb.html#gtirb
2021-01-02T22:03:13Z phoe: (SB-KERNEL:MAKE-NUMERIC-TYPE :CLASS COMMON-LISP:FLOAT :FORMAT COMMON-LISP:SINGLE-FLOAT :COMPLEXP :REAL :LOW #<SINGLE-FLOAT quiet NaN> :HIGH #<SINGLE-FLOAT quiet NaN> :ENUMERABLE COMMON-LISP:NIL)
2021-01-02T22:03:18Z phoe: this cannot end well
2021-01-02T22:03:53Z Xach: there are other failures with the same message
2021-01-02T22:03:57Z Xach: ryeboy and others
2021-01-02T22:04:01Z phoe: yes
2021-01-02T22:04:33Z Xach: are they all from the same root cause?
2021-01-02T22:04:39Z phoe: no idea
2021-01-02T22:07:01Z phoe: hmmmm
2021-01-02T22:07:24Z phoe: yes, seems so
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2021-01-02T22:08:17Z Xach: would it help to use latest sbcl instead?
2021-01-02T22:08:34Z phoe: I don't think so
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2021-01-02T22:09:16Z Xach does not know what it all means
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2021-01-02T22:09:31Z phoe: ryeboy chokes on protobuf
2021-01-02T22:09:42Z phoe: osmpbf does, too
2021-01-02T22:10:03Z Xach: ah ok
2021-01-02T22:10:06Z phoe: in here in particular: https://github.com/brown/protobuf/blob/master/protocol-buffer.lisp#L109-L121
2021-01-02T22:10:28Z phoe: for some reason, this causes the SBCL compiler to try and compare two NaNs via #'>
2021-01-02T22:10:31Z phoe: which traps the FPU
2021-01-02T22:10:38Z phoe: which bubbles up as an error.
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2021-01-02T22:10:58Z phoe: gtirb also chokes on protobuf
2021-01-02T22:12:52Z phoe: I can reproduce the protobuf failure
2021-01-02T22:13:01Z Xach: oh loard
2021-01-02T22:14:55Z phoe: https://github.com/brown/protobuf/issues/21
2021-01-02T22:16:18Z mfiano: Is it time for the ecosystem to start adopting versioned dependencies yet?
2021-01-02T22:17:04Z Xach: i don't think that would help my recent problems, which stem from SBCL detecting more invalid code at compile-time.
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2021-01-02T22:17:42Z phoe: (declaim (sb-ext:shut-up-and-compile-it-worked-on-the-previous-release))
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2021-01-02T22:18:39Z phoe: mfiano: versioned dependencies can't help you if all versions are broken
2021-01-02T22:18:43Z Xach: phoe: do you think the error is a mistake in protobuf or a mistake in sbcl?
2021-01-02T22:19:08Z phoe: Xach: I have no idea - it is on the intersection
2021-01-02T22:19:11Z phoe: lemme check real quick
2021-01-02T22:21:09Z phoe: ...
2021-01-02T22:21:15Z phoe: this is a SBCL bug
2021-01-02T22:21:22Z phoe: (cl:define-symbol-macro foo #.(sb-kernel:make-single-float -1)) works fine on default safety/speed
2021-01-02T22:21:27Z Xach: NOOOO
2021-01-02T22:21:35Z phoe: but chokes on debug 3/safety 3
2021-01-02T22:22:37Z mfiano: Does not choke here
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2021-01-02T22:23:59Z phoe: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1909881
2021-01-02T22:24:07Z phoe: try wrapping that in compile nil lambda
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2021-01-02T22:24:50Z mfiano: That fails even with default debug/safety
2021-01-02T22:24:57Z phoe: welp
2021-01-02T22:25:13Z phoe: no idea then! it built fine for Xach on default debug/safety
2021-01-02T22:26:50Z mfiano: Minimum reproducible error: (compile nil (lambda () #.(sb-kernel:make-single-float -1)))
2021-01-02T22:28:13Z phoe: nice
2021-01-02T22:29:09Z phoe: why did it work previously though?
2021-01-02T22:29:18Z phoe: why does protobuf seem to compile on default settings?
2021-01-02T22:31:48Z phoe thonk
2021-01-02T22:35:55Z phoe: enough thonking for today
2021-01-02T22:35:56Z phoe: good night
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2021-01-02T22:40:45Z slyrus: nice find phoe!
2021-01-02T22:40:52Z phoe: slyrus: wasn't me
2021-01-02T22:41:04Z slyrus: ah, mfiano?
2021-01-02T22:41:08Z phoe: all I did was tell Xach to build with a different safety/debug
2021-01-02T22:41:24Z phoe: the rest is directed by robert b. weide
2021-01-02T22:41:30Z slyrus: got it, thanks
2021-01-02T22:41:46Z mfiano: Wasn't me this time. I did find about a dozen SBCL bugs over the last few weeks that have all been fixed, but not this one
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2021-01-02T23:07:34Z thmprover: Is there a way to verify `double-float` is in fact IEEE 754 double precision (since the CL standard doesn't require it)?
2021-01-02T23:10:23Z aeth: there's an :IEEE-FLOATING-POINT in *features* but they might not all have that because I don't think that's standard
2021-01-02T23:10:26Z phoe: #+ieee-floating-point t #+ieee-floating-point nil
2021-01-02T23:10:49Z aeth: CCL doesn't have it
2021-01-02T23:10:50Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_featur.htm
2021-01-02T23:10:55Z aeth: so you could do (or ccl ieee-floating-point)
2021-01-02T23:11:13Z aeth: weird, then, that CCL doesn't have it
2021-01-02T23:12:26Z phoe: aeth: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/355
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2021-01-02T23:12:42Z thmprover: I'd prefer to have an error raised if the CL implementation does not support IEEE 754, so the user would know and be sufficiently alarmed/informed.
2021-01-02T23:13:02Z mfiano: CCL is non-conforming in this regard. I brought it up a while ago to them
2021-01-02T23:13:02Z aeth: thmprover: based on the implementation support of float-features, IEEE is pretty much guaranteed to be present on any living implementation unless you stretch the definition of "living" to include CLISP. https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features
2021-01-02T23:13:10Z phoe: mfiano: oh? what do you mean?
2021-01-02T23:13:33Z phoe: you mean the missing feature?
2021-01-02T23:13:34Z mfiano: :ieee-floating-point
2021-01-02T23:13:36Z mfiano:     If present, indicates that the implementation purports to conform to the requirements of IEEE Standard for Binary Floating-Point Arithmetic.
2021-01-02T23:13:40Z mfiano: Their documentation purports to conform
2021-01-02T23:14:05Z phoe: yes, I've made an issue for it now
2021-01-02T23:14:07Z frodef: did clisp die?
2021-01-02T23:14:10Z charles`: What is the deal with base64 there seems to be two packages for it
2021-01-02T23:14:23Z phoe: frodef: depends on your definition of "die"
2021-01-02T23:14:24Z aeth: Airship Scheme does #+(or ccl ieee-floating-point) and probably will have to for some time even if CCL adds it to *features*.
2021-01-02T23:14:27Z phoe: charles`: only two?
2021-01-02T23:14:32Z thmprover: aeth: I hoped that most modern Lisp implementations support it, but I am doing numerical analysis, so I want to be *certain*.
2021-01-02T23:14:45Z aeth: thmprover: Then use float-features and if it doesn't run, then it's uncertain :-)
2021-01-02T23:14:52Z phoe: there's base64, cl-base64, qbase64, and s-base64, that's four in Quicklisp
2021-01-02T23:14:53Z charles`: two being loaded in and arguing with each other
2021-01-02T23:15:01Z phoe: charles`: oh
2021-01-02T23:15:05Z aeth: thmprover: you probably want float-features:with-float-traps-masked anyway
2021-01-02T23:15:21Z phoe: nickname conflicts?
2021-01-02T23:15:26Z charles`: indeed
2021-01-02T23:15:44Z aeth: frodef: No release in 10 years as of last July... So 10.5 years now, I guess.
2021-01-02T23:15:50Z phoe: escalate to the maintainers and tell them to fix their stuff up. we've been in this ground multiple times now, and local nicknames exist nowadays.
2021-01-02T23:15:57Z phoe: s/in/on/
2021-01-02T23:16:06Z mfiano: There is plenty of alive software that has not made a release
2021-01-02T23:16:12Z aeth: frodef: And the pile of things that it's missing because of that is climbing, e.g. package local nicknames
2021-01-02T23:16:13Z thmprover: aeth: good to know about the package; but you mean, I should wrap all floating point computation in a `(with-float-traps-masked ...)`?
2021-01-02T23:16:31Z aeth: thmprover: and t, i.e. mask them all
2021-01-02T23:16:34Z aeth: So you get NaN/inf
2021-01-02T23:16:38Z aeth: Instead of errors.
2021-01-02T23:16:38Z phoe: aeth: there's a MR with PLNs waiting
2021-01-02T23:16:40Z aeth: Then at the end error
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2021-01-02T23:16:47Z thmprover: aeth: gotchya, thanks for the heads up :)
2021-01-02T23:16:53Z phoe: just not merged.
2021-01-02T23:17:13Z aeth: mfiano: Plenty of alive software hasn't made a release in 10 years. However, Common Lisp gets this ecosystem stability because it shifts the burden of a lot of bitrot onto the implementations, which must continue to add things over time.
2021-01-02T23:17:39Z aeth: mfiano: Sure, portable CL will continue to run in CLISP as long as it remains ANSI compliant with no compliance bugs (which undoubtably exist in every implementation)
2021-01-02T23:17:57Z aeth: mfiano: But most nontrivial CL uses some nonportable code, either as extensions or libraries.
2021-01-02T23:18:01Z mfiano: C++ is over there if you require implementations to change
2021-01-02T23:18:38Z aeth: e.g. If you use package local nicknames, you can't say that CLISP is living because you're actively working to break large parts of the Quicklisp ecosystem in CLISP.
2021-01-02T23:18:55Z aeth: That's just the most popular one, there's lots of other assumptions people make that don't work on CLISP.
2021-01-02T23:19:12Z mfiano: One can use defpackage-plus to gracefully fall back to global nicknames if you need to test your code on CCL
2021-01-02T23:20:02Z aeth: float-features is another one. Most numerical code should have with-float-traps-masked, and maybe you can have a fallback for implementations that float-features doesn't support, but if you're using it, you might also want to be able to deal with infinities and NaNs
2021-01-02T23:20:08Z mfiano: I try not to use implementation features apart from PLN because I value portability, and it took a look time before I accepted I would like to use PLN because of this
2021-01-02T23:20:16Z mfiano: s/look/long/
2021-01-02T23:21:12Z mfiano: also s/CCL/CLISP/
2021-01-02T23:21:27Z mfiano: I cant think today apparently. Off to go read a book
2021-01-02T23:21:56Z aeth: I don't test in or support CLISP anymore because enough of my dependencies are broken in it these days that it's not worth the effort to figure out exactly what subset I can test in it.
2021-01-02T23:23:37Z mfiano: Reminds me of cl-opengl and how it is incredibly slow because of traps
2021-01-02T23:23:52Z aeth: The worst dependency of mine is probably cl-sdl2, which I need to replace at some point. I tested it in Roswell a while back and it only ran in SBCL, CCL, and ECL.
2021-01-02T23:24:05Z aeth: And barely in ECL.
2021-01-02T23:24:37Z mfiano: It wraps float trapping around every call, and on the way out in unwind-protect, which accounted for about 30% of the runtime last time I made a flamegraph
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2021-01-02T23:26:27Z charles`: Speaking of CLISP, can it do threads?
2021-01-02T23:26:34Z phoe: AFAIK yes
2021-01-02T23:29:28Z mfiano: One can push a feature, but a large number of shader programs would fail to link on Intel/Mesa.
2021-01-02T23:29:44Z phoe: what feature?
2021-01-02T23:30:06Z mfiano: forget off hand. the one cl-opengl uses to control masking traps
2021-01-02T23:30:14Z phoe: oh, I see
2021-01-02T23:30:18Z mfiano: Here is a flamegraph view of one draw call for example. Look at that that time spent: https://i.lisp.cl/JmiUBd.png
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2021-01-02T23:38:25Z mfiano: Xach: curious, I recall recently you did some image thing with an octree. Did you write the octree yourself, or use some library?
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2021-01-03T00:19:34Z phoe hands Average-user a solidus
2021-01-03T00:20:03Z Average-user: Yup, thanks. My keyboard sometimes trolls me
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2021-01-03T00:36:05Z charles`: I emailed the author of cl-base64 to remove his nickname
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2021-01-03T00:54:46Z frodef: The package system (and missing module system) really needs revamping.
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2021-01-03T01:03:21Z moon-child: is there a version of mapcar which errors if the lists it applies to aren't the same length?
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2021-01-03T01:17:29Z mfiano: I would think that would be too slow to be useful
2021-01-03T01:17:49Z mfiano: So I would say no, unless some obscure library has something
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2021-01-03T01:18:47Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think so.
2021-01-03T01:19:12Z no-defun-allowed: You iterate over all the lists, then instead of terminating when one is '(), you check if all are '(), and if not, then you signal an error.
2021-01-03T01:19:18Z aeth: ah, netsplit
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2021-01-03T01:20:12Z aeth: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1609635801#1609635801
2021-01-03T01:20:26Z aeth: Fortunately, at least one log bot was on the "correct" side of the netsplit for anyone else who was confused
2021-01-03T01:20:43Z aeth: The rest of us were wondering what these answers had to do with the package system. :-)
2021-01-03T01:21:49Z aeth: frodef: There are some low-hanging fruits in package features, including hierarchical and versioned, although you can sort of fake the former with reexporting symbols and you can definitely do the latter manually (although only Alexandria does this afaik).
2021-01-03T01:22:05Z aeth: frodef: But the solutions would be controversial so it would take a lot to get anything.
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2021-01-03T01:23:08Z frodef: aeth: The problem with CL is, it was so good back in 1990 that it's still "good enough" :-)
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2021-01-03T01:27:41Z aeth: frodef: No, it's more like... how many > 100 kloc projects are there written in CL that aren't CL compilers?
2021-01-03T01:28:02Z aeth: Edge cases only really show up in really, really large projects.
2021-01-03T01:28:22Z aeth: And compilers can just add whatever internals they want, so they're not really having to deal with mostly-portable CL.
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2021-01-03T01:29:33Z frodef: aeth: I tend to disagree, I suspect the lack of a global "module" system/architecture is holding CL back.
2021-01-03T01:30:24Z no-defun-allowed: How do you handle having version X for one package, and version Y for another?
2021-01-03T01:31:31Z no-defun-allowed: You might put versions in the package "names" or something, so they don't collide. But then would FIND-SYMBOL take a versioned name? These things seem hard with packages as bundles of sybmols.
2021-01-03T01:31:34Z no-defun-allowed: *symbols
2021-01-03T01:31:43Z frodef: no-defun-allowed: not easily with today's package system, I believe.
2021-01-03T01:31:55Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: well, versioned can follow from... some kinds of hierarchical
2021-01-03T01:32:12Z aeth: The new version just inherits from the old one for the most part. Sometimes removing, but mostly adding.
2021-01-03T01:32:38Z no-defun-allowed: I think first class global environments, specifically sticking each module in a FCGE with its dependencies, is a good idea, but then you have edge cases like one module returning a FOO:B that's different to another module removing FOO:B, cause they came from different package objects.
2021-01-03T01:33:11Z frodef: no-defun-allowed: FCGE?
2021-01-03T01:33:24Z no-defun-allowed: So you might want to have package objects collude to not create duplicate symbol objects somehow, I dunno.
2021-01-03T01:33:31Z no-defun-allowed: frodef: "First class global environment"
2021-01-03T01:34:25Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: Versioned packages are way simpler than FCGE, though. Essentially you want to inherit symbols in a new package from an old one (several libraries do this, including UIOP and defpackage-plus afaik)
2021-01-03T01:34:38Z White_Flame: PLN would allow you to have package foo-3.5: and package foo-3.6: simultaneously, but I think those canonical package versions are better handled in the .asd file than scattered around the source's defpackages & imports
2021-01-03T01:34:48Z no-defun-allowed: Gnuxie tells me that in Self and Newspeak, module imports are just assignments to slots, so you can provide whatever objects you want. But packages, querying the environment for packages, and all that introspective stuff makes it harder.
2021-01-03T01:35:15Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: Except, sometimes, you want to do one of three things: (1) remove a symbol (something deprecated got removed from the API), (2) add a symbol (by far the most common and totally safe), (3) replace a symbol (because foo.1:barfoo and foo.2:barfoo have two different implementations so they refer to two different functions)
2021-01-03T01:35:38Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that much could be done with diffs. That'd handle deduping symbol objects across package versions.
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2021-01-03T01:36:03Z aeth: You'd basically just semvar it, with the no-version version being the latest.
2021-01-03T01:36:15Z aeth: *semver
2021-01-03T01:37:12Z aeth: To complicate things a bit, you'd want one of the symbol conflict resolution options to be "don't use the latest, use this specific version instead"
2021-01-03T01:37:42Z aeth: So if you USE my-package and it stops working because of a symbol conflict (and, yeah, USE is bad in general), then you can just use my-package.2 or whatever.
2021-01-03T01:38:25Z aeth: Someone can probably do 95% of this as a library.
2021-01-03T01:40:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: For most cases, loading the library then renaming the package Just Works
2021-01-03T01:40:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: As long as you don't have any code that relies on a package name.
2021-01-03T01:41:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, I think using PLNs in code that ends up in Quicklisp is a Bad Idea
2021-01-03T01:41:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Personally, I tend to distinguish "code that I might eventually put into quicklisp" from "application code"
2021-01-03T01:42:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: And only use implementation-specific features in the latter sorts of projects
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2021-01-03T03:34:17Z troydm: what does PACKAGE-INFERRED-SYSTEM means in QuickLisp?
2021-01-03T03:35:07Z mfiano: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-package_002dinferred_002dsystem-extension.html
2021-01-03T03:35:54Z troydm: mfiano: thx
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2021-01-03T04:04:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-01-03T04:06:36Z slyrus: morning beach!
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2021-01-03T06:13:09Z beach: frodef: See http://metamodular.com/SICL/environments.pdf for a description of first-class global environments.
2021-01-03T06:13:14Z troydm: okey this might sound like a dumb question but it seems that there are two local-projects directories when using roswell
2021-01-03T06:13:28Z troydm: am I missing something?
2021-01-03T06:14:50Z troydm: like how do I get a list of local-project directories?
2021-01-03T06:20:15Z troydm: it seems like top level local-projects directory is not part of ql:*local-project-directories*
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2021-01-03T06:26:27Z troydm: or rather roswell adds ~/.roswell/local-projects to ASDF registry but not ql:*local-project-directories*
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2021-01-03T06:28:48Z troydm: also one the side note which is the best readline repl for sbcl?
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2021-01-03T06:29:15Z troydm: I've installed linedit but not sure maybe there are better alternatives
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2021-01-03T06:30:22Z moon-child: slime
2021-01-03T06:31:29Z moon-child: failing that, I usually use rlwrap, but linedit is probably at parity with it
2021-01-03T06:32:02Z troydm: moon-child: it has tab completion
2021-01-03T06:32:33Z troydm: moon-child: I do use slime, but sometimes I start repl just to quickly check something
2021-01-03T06:32:43Z troydm: old habit
2021-01-03T06:33:05Z beach: troydm: Why would you do that if you already have SLIME running?
2021-01-03T06:34:03Z troydm: beach: ohh, well I'm still learning to use SLIME
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2021-01-03T06:52:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: troydm: I use linedit all the time
2021-01-03T06:52:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Better integrated with lisp, although it has a couple bugs
2021-01-03T06:53:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Tab complete for symbols and M-i for documenting the current symbol is pretty handy
2021-01-03T06:53:39Z troydm: yeah, I like it too
2021-01-03T06:54:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: As for "why": I occasionally use lisp on servers where I don't have emacs installed
2021-01-03T06:54:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, if I'm already doing stuff at the shell, sometimes it's easier just to use the REPL in the context of my current session rather than context-switching into emacs
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2021-01-03T07:01:22Z no-defun-allowed: Although a touch convoluted, you could start SWANK on the server, then use SSH to port forward and M-x slime-connect to that.
2021-01-03T07:01:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Linedit is pretty good
2021-01-03T07:01:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: As is the sb-aclrepl contrib
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2021-01-03T10:05:43Z sauvin: in sbcl, I'm suddenly getting hit with an "undefined variable" error or warning when I try (setq a '(1 2 3 4 5)). What could be wrong?
2021-01-03T10:05:50Z phoe: sauvin: SETQ
2021-01-03T10:05:59Z phoe: toplevel SETQ in Common Lisp is undefined behavior
2021-01-03T10:06:06Z phoe: and the examples in CLHS are, sadly, making heavy use of it
2021-01-03T10:06:25Z sauvin: Yeah. Doesn't happen in gcl, just sbcl.
2021-01-03T10:06:35Z phoe: define your variables before setting them - globals via DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER, locals via LET or LET* or the other utilities for binding
2021-01-03T10:06:48Z phoe: I can't recommeng GCL since it's been pretty much dead and non-conforming
2021-01-03T10:07:20Z phoe: s/toplevel SETQ/toplevel SETQ on undefined variables/
2021-01-03T10:07:23Z sauvin: Yeah, well, folks in this channel about 24 hours ago told me about that, which is why I'm asking. Worked in gcl, ain't working in sbcl, wtf!?
2021-01-03T10:09:09Z phoe: mostly because SBCL is becoming more and more strict as of late
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2021-01-03T10:09:25Z phoe: as in, it sets off fireworks for more and more non-conforming code
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2021-01-03T10:10:01Z phoe: it's a good thing on one hand, and on the other, it has caused a fair share of breakages in libraries that were working before but then SBCL found ANSI CL conformance bugs in them
2021-01-03T10:10:32Z sauvin: Oh, wonderful.
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2021-01-03T10:10:46Z phoe: and then the breakages get fixed after the initial anguish
2021-01-03T10:10:50Z phoe: and we end up with better code overall.
2021-01-03T10:11:40Z sauvin: Well, see, this was one of the reasons the folks here gave yesterday for me to move to sbcl: more conformant to the standard.
2021-01-03T10:11:59Z phoe: and much more eager to warn the programmer
2021-01-03T10:12:00Z sauvin: Anyway, yeah, using let solved my problem.
2021-01-03T10:13:12Z phoe: the question with SETQ on symbols always is: where is this particular symbol defined to be a variable?
2021-01-03T10:13:18Z phoe: if it's defined nowhere, SBCL will point that out
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2021-01-03T10:13:36Z beach: sauvin: It's kind of the other way around.  It "works" in SBCL, since it signals a warning, and it does not "work" in GCL because it lets a detectable undefined situation pass silently.
2021-01-03T10:14:07Z phoe: beach: actually, it's undefined behavior, so an implementation is free *not* to warn
2021-01-03T10:14:23Z beach: Hence "works".
2021-01-03T10:14:47Z beach: ... and "kind of".
2021-01-03T10:14:56Z phoe: so both SBCL and GCL/ECL/CCL/ABCL behavior groups are acceptable
2021-01-03T10:15:05Z phoe: ;; which doesn't mean they are desirable
2021-01-03T10:15:16Z beach: For some value of "acceptable", sure.
2021-01-03T10:16:04Z sauvin: Any way to turn that particular warning off?
2021-01-03T10:16:21Z phoe: the easiest: don't use toplevel SETQ
2021-01-03T10:16:23Z beach: You absolutely don't want to do that.
2021-01-03T10:16:25Z moon-child: why not define the variable properly?  (defparameter a '(1 2 3 4 5))
2021-01-03T10:17:17Z beach: sauvin: You should not rely on undefined behavior.
2021-01-03T10:17:33Z sauvin: Because I don't understand it. I'm just now learning how to assign variables in lisp, and it's a lot more complex than in perl, and it's more complex than in the AutoLISP that I used to use heavily but haven't seen in twenty years.
2021-01-03T10:18:12Z no-defun-allowed: You are going to understand it even less, if you attempt to intentionally break it.
2021-01-03T10:18:30Z sauvin: So, anyway, let works at the top level. I'm a big fan of lexical variables anyway. I avoid globals wherever I can.
2021-01-03T10:18:41Z beach: sauvin: How is (setq <variable> <value-form>) more complex than <variable> = <value-form>?
2021-01-03T10:18:50Z sauvin: How am I intentionally breaking anything using let?
2021-01-03T10:19:02Z phoe: using let, you aren't
2021-01-03T10:19:09Z phoe: using toplevel setq, you might be
2021-01-03T10:19:29Z sauvin: beach: in perl, "my $thing = 'stuff'" works regardless of where it appears.
2021-01-03T10:19:39Z no-defun-allowed: You are not breaking anything with LET. You're also not really breaking things with SETQ on undefined variables on its own, but attempting to dispose of the warnings your implementation makes for using SETQ in that way is breaking it.
2021-01-03T10:19:44Z moon-child: sauvin: setq is analogous to assignment, not declaration
2021-01-03T10:19:44Z beach: sauvin: I am sorry to hear that.
2021-01-03T10:19:44Z phoe: yep, not in Lisp
2021-01-03T10:19:51Z sauvin: Hey: sbcl doesn't like top-level setq, I don't use it. Easy peasy.
2021-01-03T10:19:59Z no-defun-allowed: my $thing = ... would be like wrapping the rest of the body in (let ((thing ...)) ...)
2021-01-03T10:20:04Z moon-child: $thing = 'stuff'  ←→  setq.  my $thing = 'stuff' ←→ defparameter/let
2021-01-03T10:20:20Z phoe: declaring local variables in Lisp is done via LET and LET* and some other similar operators
2021-01-03T10:20:51Z beach: moon-child: Oh, good point.
2021-01-03T10:20:54Z sauvin: moon-child, a hint from an old perl guy: ALWAYS use strict.
2021-01-03T10:21:16Z no-defun-allowed: However, note that DEFVAR and DEFPARAMETER are always used to declare special variables, which are dynamically scoped. I think Perl is another one of the few languages with dynamically scoped variables.
2021-01-03T10:21:21Z sauvin: defparameter can be used anywhere?
2021-01-03T10:21:27Z phoe: sauvin: yes, but shouldn't
2021-01-03T10:21:44Z phoe: it would define global variables from inside a local context
2021-01-03T10:21:48Z no-defun-allowed: So they aren't exactly globals per se.
2021-01-03T10:22:03Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, DEFUN, DEFPARAMETER and DEFVAR usually don't do what you want them to do, if you put them inside a function body.
2021-01-03T10:22:08Z sauvin: perl DOES have dynamically scoped variables, but there are very few circumstances under which their use encouraged.
2021-01-03T10:22:21Z phoe: see, it's similar in Lisp
2021-01-03T10:22:37Z phoe: you usually don't want dynamic variables, unless you *do* want them
2021-01-03T10:22:49Z no-defun-allowed: That is not so far off in Lisp; you use lexically scoped variables by default, but dynamic scoping is useful for cross-cutting "customization" of things.
2021-01-03T10:22:53Z phoe: for true non-dynamic globals, there's https://github.com/lmj/global-vars
2021-01-03T10:23:21Z sauvin: Yes, and i perl, I'd have to have some pretty convincing reason to use 'local', which means 'dynamic'.
2021-01-03T10:24:39Z sauvin: I'll look at that later. For now, many years spent swearing at the machine (and destroying more than one keyboard in the process), I tend to disfavour global variables. I just wind up tripping over them.
2021-01-03T10:25:02Z no-defun-allowed: For example, you can re-bind *standard-output* to send printed text somewhere else (provided it is printed to *standard-output*).
2021-01-03T10:26:28Z sauvin: Had to do that already. *default-external-format* defaults to utf-8, but trying to read a couple of files I have caused sbcl to puke, so I had to change that variable to ISO-mumble.
2021-01-03T10:26:52Z phoe: sauvin: sure, then use LET and friends as much as possible
2021-01-03T10:27:10Z no-defun-allowed: But I use a fair few global variables in my work, mostly to put weak hash tables somewhere, so that I can de-duplicate objects I use.
2021-01-03T10:27:28Z phoe: and use dynamic variables either for passing context information along your call stack, and almost only for that.
2021-01-03T10:28:28Z sauvin: I tend to prefer passing parameters. Dynamic variables (in my other-language experience) are just another morass.
2021-01-03T10:28:43Z sauvin: Just like globals.
2021-01-03T10:29:05Z phoe: most of the time they are, but they also allow for nice functionalities
2021-01-03T10:29:35Z phoe: (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) ...) hijacks the output stream and returns everything that was printed as a string
2021-01-03T10:30:20Z sauvin: Is that something like $string = sprintf ( ... ) ?
2021-01-03T10:30:24Z phoe: (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) (prin1 x)) prints X with all symbols being fully qualified, so with all package prefixes
2021-01-03T10:30:31Z phoe: sauvin: not exactly
2021-01-03T10:30:37Z phoe: ... is allowed to be arbitrary code
2021-01-03T10:30:53Z phoe: it can contain functions which call functions which call functions which print to standard output
2021-01-03T10:31:16Z phoe: and, no, they aren't printing to standard output anymore; they're printing into the stream that collects stuff into a string
2021-01-03T10:31:30Z oni-on-ion: just symbols
2021-01-03T10:31:49Z sauvin: $string = sprintf ($fmt, $func1->($func2->($func3->($crap))));
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2021-01-03T10:32:52Z sauvin: Not sure how much I'm looking forward to lisp's packages, modules and OO. :\
2021-01-03T10:32:55Z phoe: (defun foo () (princ :asdf)) (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (princ :qwer) (foo) (princ :zxcv))
2021-01-03T10:32:56Z no-defun-allowed: I am aware that Haskell (or GHC maybe, who can tell the difference) has dynamic binding, so they're not totally useless.
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2021-01-03T10:33:06Z phoe: ;; => "QWERASDFZXCV"
2021-01-03T10:33:15Z phoe: that's what it looks like in CL
2021-01-03T10:33:30Z phoe: the function FOO prints to standard output
2021-01-03T10:33:39Z no-defun-allowed: Packages and OOP in Lisp are pretty fun.
2021-01-03T10:33:41Z phoe: so we redirect the standard output elsewhere in code that calls FOO, and that works
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2021-01-03T10:35:51Z no-defun-allowed: If you think you aren't going to have fun learning something, it is going to be hard to have fun learning it.
2021-01-03T10:38:15Z beach keeps his thoughts to himself. 
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2021-01-03T10:39:34Z no-defun-allowed: At the very least, objects in Common Lisp are very different to that in other languages, such as Java and C++, and even different to that in the "real OOP" languages like Smalltalk and Self.
2021-01-03T10:40:01Z no-defun-allowed: So past struggles in those paradigms may or may not be representative of one's use of CLOS.
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2021-01-03T13:10:52Z heisig: If I had a nickel for every bug I introduced because I closed over a LOOP variable, thinking it would create a fresh closure for each iteration, I'd have have two nickels.  Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
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2021-01-03T15:56:41Z pfdietz: phoe: this is exercising the mutation tester, sanding off rough spots exposed by applying it to "real" code.
2021-01-03T15:56:50Z phoe: pfdietz: yes, I have guessed
2021-01-03T15:57:43Z phoe: thanks for the PR!
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2021-01-03T15:58:36Z phoe: how are other projects faring in comparison?
2021-01-03T15:59:49Z pfdietz: Just starting this round.  split-sequence looks good, no real bugs found so far, just some cleanliness tweaking.
2021-01-03T16:00:06Z phoe: was the (unless (<= start end) ...) a bug though?
2021-01-03T16:00:23Z pfdietz: Well, ok, one bug.
2021-01-03T16:00:27Z phoe: yes
2021-01-03T16:00:34Z phoe: (split-sequence:split-sequence 0 (list 1 0 2 0 3 0 4) :start 2 :end 0) is capable of blowing the heap
2021-01-03T16:01:42Z pfdietz: I applied it to fset sometime last year and found a number of problems, even in code that had been covered.
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2021-01-03T16:02:51Z pfdietz: But, as I said, this is more for shaking down the tester.   I'm going to have a set of recommendations for testing framework writers too, to make their tests more useful here.
2021-01-03T16:03:09Z pfdietz: For example: an option to stop testing as soon as one failure is detected.
2021-01-03T16:04:19Z phoe: yes, this sounds very nice
2021-01-03T16:04:28Z phoe: so the issue can be fixed and then more fuzzing can happen
2021-01-03T16:04:37Z phoe: so unnecessary duplicates don't happen.
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2021-01-03T16:05:01Z pfdietz: In this case, because once I kill a mutant I want to stop testing.   No sense killing it again and again.
2021-01-03T16:05:10Z phoe: yes
2021-01-03T16:05:55Z pfdietz: Also, I would like to be able to extract a subset of a test suite (say, just the tests that somewhere call function FOO) and just run those.  No sense running tests that don't touch a mutated function.
2021-01-03T16:06:22Z phoe: oh! can you do that automatically? tree-walking? code-walking?
2021-01-03T16:07:00Z pfdietz: It's easy to see which tests call FOO:  instrument FOO, run the test suite.  This assumes the tests have set some special variable that indicates which individual test is being run.
2021-01-03T16:07:32Z pfdietz: (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (instrument-it (symbol-function 'foo)))
2021-01-03T16:07:33Z phoe: I assume you also could try to call Dissect and figure that out from the call stack, somehow... but, yes
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2021-01-03T16:08:22Z pfdietz: Not sure that would work on generic functions, though.  Maybe an around method, but what if one already exists.
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2021-01-03T16:11:47Z phoe: why wouldn't it work?
2021-01-03T16:11:48Z _death: with such a who-calls database (kinda like screamer maintains) you could have relevant tests running automatically after redefining a function..
2021-01-03T16:12:12Z phoe: I assume you can always SETF FDEFINITION with some sorta funcallable instance that then calls the original FDEFINITION
2021-01-03T16:12:42Z phoe: or even with a closure that rebinds a variable and calls the closed-over function.
2021-01-03T16:13:32Z pfdietz: Suppose the code dynamically adds new methods?
2021-01-03T16:14:12Z pfdietz: No big deal though; in those cases just conservatively run all the tests.
2021-01-03T16:14:33Z phoe: oh, yes, I see
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2021-01-03T16:29:34Z _death: sbcl has sb-introspect and others have their own interfaces (and then there's xref.lisp).. (swank:xref :callers "foo:bar") seems to work, but not a very convenient interface for CL programs
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2021-01-03T16:30:43Z pfdietz: Anyway, what I was aiming for here was API in test frameworks to make this useful (running subsets of test, and knowing which test is running).
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2021-01-03T17:01:35Z _death: with a little patching the slime xref browser now works reasonably on sbcl
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2021-01-03T17:14:44Z Xach: oh lord, local-time is broken?
2021-01-03T17:15:03Z Xach: sbcl strikes again
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2021-01-03T17:16:37Z Xach: i don't quite understand the location of the warning from http://report.quicklisp.org/2021-01-03/failure-report/local-time.html#local-time
2021-01-03T17:18:20Z Xach: ah, i see
2021-01-03T17:18:28Z Xach: https://github.com/dlowe-net/local-time/blob/master/src/local-time.lisp#L399 i think
2021-01-03T17:19:39Z _death: yeah.. looks like it tries to dolist on a vector
2021-01-03T17:23:24Z aeth: A fun error I've been getting is when SBCL 2.0.2 (in e.g. Gitlab CI) STYLE-WARNINGs that the implicit return value of NIL in a COND with no default clause is not of some numeric type that the rest of the code expects. But SBCL 2.0.8, which I actually use (and yes, I should upgrade), is a bit smarter and complains about deleting unreachable code in those unreachable, literally-impossible default branches.
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2021-01-03T17:24:48Z aeth: I suppose I should have an EFOO and CFOO version (like ECASE and CCASE) to those macros that generate CONDs so that the default branch is an error instead, since if you make it an error, it won't complain... except about deleting unreachable code, which can be safely hidden in a "(LOCALLY (DECLARE #+SBCL" with the right declaration.
2021-01-03T17:25:04Z pfdietz: Turn the last clause (<condition> . <forms>) into (t (assert <condition>) . <forms>)?
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2021-01-03T17:25:33Z Xach file bug
2021-01-03T17:26:24Z phoe: SBCL: the greatest bane of lisp programmers and maintainers since CMU CL
2021-01-03T17:26:33Z pfdietz: I plan to use these warnings in the mutation tester.  If I want to substitute Y for X, I can insert a (unless (eql x y) ...) and if it complains about unreachable code, I know that's an equivalent mutant.
2021-01-03T17:26:58Z phoe: if you enjoy lisp compilers that don't yell at you for things, you definitely shouldn't try sbcl
2021-01-03T17:27:13Z Nilby: Is there way to get sldb to automatically keep picking a restart?
2021-01-03T17:27:40Z phoe: automatically? like, in a loop?
2021-01-03T17:28:07Z Nilby: Yes, like next time it gets the same error.
2021-01-03T17:28:15Z phoe: I'd do that with handler-bind over invoke-restart around the signaling form in the REPL
2021-01-03T17:28:25Z phoe: but I don't know a SLDB solution, it any
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2021-01-03T17:30:46Z Nilby: Hmmm. I was hoping to do in without forethought. Like an easy way to blast through encoding errors.
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2021-01-03T17:32:11Z phoe: handler-bind over invoke-restart sounds the best for me
2021-01-03T17:34:01Z SpaceIgor2075: I finished reading A Complete Idiot's Guide to Common Lisp Packages and I feel like an incomplete idiot
2021-01-03T17:34:13Z Nilby: phoe: Thanks.
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2021-01-03T17:37:28Z SpaceIgor2075: So, to make a new package, in newpackage.lisp I should write something like: (defpackage newpackage :export '("new-stuff")) (in-package newpackage) (defun newstuff () "New Stuff!!")
2021-01-03T17:37:37Z SpaceIgor2075: Did I get it right?
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2021-01-03T17:56:55Z Nilby: SpaceIgor2075: pretty close, but I would say: (defpackage :newpackage (:use :cl) (:export #:new-stuff)) (in-package :newpackage)
2021-01-03T18:05:30Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: DEFPACKAGE options are not quoted, and remember that strings respect case whereas symbols, by default, don't
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2021-01-03T18:22:01Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: 1. why is :cl used instead of 'cl? 2. (:export #:new-stuff) has a # because new-stuff is a function, am i right?
2021-01-03T18:22:23Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: actually the answer to both questions is one and the same
2021-01-03T18:22:34Z phoe: because of how Lisp works, the reader works before code is compiled
2021-01-03T18:22:56Z phoe: and writing FOO causes the reader to intern the symbol named "FOO" in the current package
2021-01-03T18:23:33Z phoe: when you evaluate a DEFPACKAGE, this can happen in literally any package, because usually only after a package is defined you use IN-PACKAGE to switch into it
2021-01-03T18:23:53Z phoe: so a DEFPACKAGE form that has unqualified symbols like FOO in it can intern unnecessary symbols into other packages.
2021-01-03T18:24:06Z phoe: so there are three ways to fix this issue
2021-01-03T18:24:14Z phoe: 1) :foo 2) #:foo 3) "FOO"
2021-01-03T18:24:26Z phoe: option 1) is to use keywords, which interns symbols into the KEYWORD package
2021-01-03T18:24:51Z phoe: which kiiinda sidesteps the problem but not really, because now symbols are interned into the KEYWORD package, which can produce unnecessary keywords
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2021-01-03T18:25:15Z phoe: option 3) is to use strings, which is permissible, but has issues if someone uses a different readtable case than the standard, upcasing one
2021-01-03T18:25:34Z phoe: option 2) is to use packageless symbols, which are interned nowhere
2021-01-03T18:26:01Z phoe: and I personally suggest to use #:foo for everything in DEFPACKAGE, including imports and uses and exports and package-local nicknames
2021-01-03T18:26:28Z phoe: so (defpackage #:newpackage (:use #:cl) (:export #:new-stuff)) (in-package #:newpackage)
2021-01-03T18:28:58Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: thanks. So, #:stuff is equivalent to (make-symbol "STUFF")?
2021-01-03T18:29:07Z Nilby: phoe is such a great explainer, maybe should write a book. ;-)
2021-01-03T18:29:36Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: almost equivalent
2021-01-03T18:29:43Z phoe: it's equivalent to #.(make-symbol "STUFF")
2021-01-03T18:29:47Z phoe: the #. denotes that it's done at read-time
2021-01-03T18:29:50Z phoe: Nilby: :(
2021-01-03T18:29:54Z phoe: again? come on
2021-01-03T18:30:18Z sauvin: What book did you write?
2021-01-03T18:30:21Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: What's the name of the book?
2021-01-03T18:30:23Z _death: An Incomplete Idiot's Guide To CL Packages
2021-01-03T18:30:34Z phoe: _death: I burst into laughter, thank you
2021-01-03T18:30:37Z phoe: minion: tell sauvin about tclcs
2021-01-03T18:30:40Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``tclcs''.
2021-01-03T18:30:48Z phoe: >:(
2021-01-03T18:30:51Z sauvin: tcl!?
2021-01-03T18:30:54Z sauvin runs away
2021-01-03T18:31:16Z SpaceIgor2075: tclhs?
2021-01-03T18:31:31Z phoe: minion: tell sauvin about tclcs
2021-01-03T18:31:31Z minion: sauvin: tclcs: The Common Lisp Condition System, https://www.apress.com/us/book/9781484261330
2021-01-03T18:31:33Z phoe: there
2021-01-03T18:33:34Z sauvin: Bookmarked. When I understand lisp a little better, I gonna grab that book.
2021-01-03T18:33:42Z phoe: thanks, hope that it serves you well
2021-01-03T18:34:48Z phoe: it seems that I've achieved two things with this book, one intended, one accidental
2021-01-03T18:35:12Z SpaceIgor2075: CL seems to be quite deep. Are there any books dedicated to other programming languages' condition systems?
2021-01-03T18:35:12Z phoe: the intended one was to write about the ideas, implementation, and use cases of the condition system
2021-01-03T18:35:42Z SpaceIgor2075: Or is it specific to CL that you can write a whole book on it's condition system?
2021-01-03T18:35:59Z phoe: the accidental one: I seem to have described how to implement a non-trivial piece of Common Lisp code, bit by bit, while testing it heavily in the REPL
2021-01-03T18:36:10Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: other languages don't have condition systems in general
2021-01-03T18:36:18Z phoe: their exception handling routines are usually simpler, much simpler
2021-01-03T18:36:32Z phoe: one of my online lisp talks describes this a little
2021-01-03T18:36:57Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4P9lFK79hQ the first part
2021-01-03T18:37:53Z Nilby: If we just copy the irc logs and throw a few headings on, i feel like we'd have like 2 more phoe books pretty quick.
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2021-01-03T18:38:32Z sauvin: What, in a nutshell, _is_ the condition system?
2021-01-03T18:38:44Z SpaceIgor2075: Nilby: phoe may have a blog
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2021-01-03T18:41:04Z phoe: sauvin: a system of handling special situations happening in code, including errors
2021-01-03T18:41:11Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: I do have a blog but it's not really populated
2021-01-03T18:41:29Z phoe: that idea of scraping IRC logs does sound kinda nice, when I think about it...
2021-01-03T18:42:23Z sauvin: I should imagine that if the S/N ratio here is high enough, browsing the logs would be a great tool for brainstorming all KINDS of random stuff.
2021-01-03T18:42:48Z phoe: #lisp is moderated rather heavily when it comes to off-topic discussion, so S/N should be high in general
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2021-01-03T19:00:31Z SpaceIgor2075: Where can i learn about projects and asdf? When I create a project with quickproject i get a dir with project.asd project.lisp package.lisp; i want to know what's going on
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2021-01-03T19:09:47Z _death: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/
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2021-01-03T19:30:41Z SpaceIgor2075: Is CLtL2 worth reading for a newbie who read LoL?
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2021-01-03T19:36:35Z _death: yes
2021-01-03T19:36:51Z phoe: LoL, you mean Land of Lisp?
2021-01-03T19:36:54Z _death: just keep in mind that there are a few changes in the standard
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2021-01-03T19:37:08Z phoe: asking because Let over Lambda is not really for newbies, if that's what you read
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2021-01-03T19:38:08Z SpaceIgor2075: Land of Lisp, but i was planning to read Let over Lambda
2021-01-03T19:38:27Z SpaceIgor2075: (Lisp needs more LoLbooks)
2021-01-03T19:39:43Z SpaceIgor2075: _death: really, they changed the standsrd? I thought CL didn't change for decades
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2021-01-03T19:40:23Z _death: SpaceIgor2075: CLtL2 was written as the language was standardized
2021-01-03T19:40:47Z _death: SpaceIgor2075: in fact for a newbie, it may be better to first read a book like Practical Common Lisp first
2021-01-03T19:40:51Z phoe: importantly, CLtL2 was written before ANSI CL was finalized
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2021-01-03T19:42:26Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: Oh, now i get it. Is CLtL2 to ANSI CL like K&R C to ANSI C?
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2021-01-03T19:46:50Z _death: kind of, except K&R was a short guide and CLtL2 is more a sprawling creature that's between spec and guide
2021-01-03T19:47:52Z _death: a manual..
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2021-01-03T19:51:00Z ralt: I really wish lisp implementations didn't depend so much on glibc
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2021-01-03T19:54:33Z heisig: ralt: The people in #sicl are working on it :)
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2021-01-03T20:11:20Z VincentVega: Guys, is the funcall version slower here, and if yes is there a way not to repeat arg, while retaining performance?
2021-01-03T20:11:21Z VincentVega: (if b (f1 arg) (f2 arg))
2021-01-03T20:11:26Z VincentVega: (funcall (if b 'f1 'f2) arg)
2021-01-03T20:11:48Z phoe: the two should be equivalent performancewise on a smart enough compiler
2021-01-03T20:11:56Z phoe: try comparing disassemblies
2021-01-03T20:12:18Z VincentVega: i see, ok!
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2021-01-03T20:29:33Z phoe: does anyone know of an automated test suite for Flavors?
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2021-01-03T21:02:14Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: if you like linedit, would this be interesting for you: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/linedit-1.ogv
2021-01-03T21:05:15Z phoe: is this another show of eclector wizardry that you are performing in front of us now?
2021-01-03T21:05:31Z phoe: I'm asking because I'm amazed
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2021-01-03T21:13:43Z scymtym: phoe: yes, eclector-based highlighting. more or less the same thing that did the highlighting in the eclector presentation
2021-01-03T21:14:05Z phoe: scymtym: :D
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2021-01-03T21:36:02Z markasoftware: Is there any sort of library with more powerful generic functions? I want to be able to specialize on arbitrary conditions and on the current state of global variables
2021-01-03T21:36:20Z phoe: conditions, what do you mean?
2021-01-03T21:36:39Z phoe: you mean condition types? you already can do that, all CL implementations implement condition types as condition classes
2021-01-03T21:36:43Z markasoftware: I mean it in the true or false sense lol
2021-01-03T21:36:56Z phoe: oh; you can kinda already do that
2021-01-03T21:37:01Z markasoftware: Eg, use this method if the argument is an odd numbet
2021-01-03T21:37:21Z phoe: you can have a method specialized on NULL if you want to match NIL, and an unspecialized method for all other cases
2021-01-03T21:37:24Z no-defun-allowed: T for true objects, NULL for false (NIL), but that won't do predicate dispatch.
2021-01-03T21:37:29Z phoe: oh, like that... hmmm
2021-01-03T21:38:00Z no-defun-allowed: I think there were a few papers on "generalisers" and predicate dispatch in CLOS and/or MOP.
2021-01-03T21:41:51Z _death: there are libraries like contextl, filtered-functions, specializable, etc.
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2021-01-03T21:57:02Z Krystof: https://arxiv.org/abs/1403.2765 e.g.
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2021-01-03T22:03:09Z markasoftware: Very interesting. I'm sure I can take some combination of these ideas to do what I want. Thanks everyone!
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2021-01-03T22:06:16Z aeth: Well, this is a first. I had to introduce an ECASE= variation of the CASE= macro so I could satisfy both old SBCL (like in Gitlab CI) and new SBCL (like on my local machine). https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/-/commit/12bb5cc21a185988b72f7cc4da118f4dd992a286
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2021-01-03T22:06:44Z aeth: The default, impossible path is an error in old SBCLs (no warning that it's possibly a NIL) and deleted as unreachable code (but without a compiler note) in new SBCLs.
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2021-01-03T22:07:07Z aeth: I've had to work around different implementations before, but working around different actively-used SBCLs is... something else.
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2021-01-03T22:09:24Z Krystof: aeth: we may not move fast, but we break things
2021-01-03T22:09:47Z Krystof: this is probably because case on small integer keys got an optimization a while back to convert to jump tables
2021-01-03T22:10:11Z Krystof: I'm not entirely surprised that this causes a change in the diagnostics emitted
2021-01-03T22:10:22Z aeth: Krystof: well, not case, but COND
2021-01-03T22:10:29Z mfiano: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1909883
2021-01-03T22:10:46Z Krystof: if it's a cond that looks like the expansion of case, the same applies
2021-01-03T22:10:47Z mfiano: posted yesterday about DCE without notes, and also DCE without retval checking
2021-01-03T22:10:54Z aeth: And, yes, what happened is that it got smarter so that it was able to delete impossible branches
2021-01-03T22:11:13Z aeth: Perhaps because of that optimization, yes
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2021-01-03T23:02:21Z asarch: One very stupid question: once you have defined your new class *without* any accessor at all, e.g.: (defclass foo () ((bar :initform nil :initarg :bar))), can you later with inheritance define an accessor? In this case, an accessor for bar: (defclass spam (foo) ...)?
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2021-01-03T23:02:47Z asarch: *once you have defined your class with a slot...
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2021-01-03T23:03:40Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, but it's probably wiser to start with defining an accessor.
2021-01-03T23:03:43Z phoe: asarch: yes, you need to duplicate the slot form and add an accessor there
2021-01-03T23:03:58Z phoe: this accessor won't work for the superclass if you do it this way.
2021-01-03T23:04:08Z asarch: Or you have to (defgeneric bar ((spam))), (defmethod (setf bar) ((instance spam))), (defmethod bar ((instance spam)) ...)?
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2021-01-03T23:04:33Z phoe: not needed - but, again, this way is not really advised unless you have some use case for that
2021-01-03T23:04:44Z phoe: also you can't specialize in defgeneric
2021-01-03T23:04:48Z phoe: so, no double parens around spam
2021-01-03T23:05:50Z asarch: But, (defmethod (setf bar) ((instance spam) value) (setf (slot-value 'bar) value)), right?
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2021-01-03T23:06:00Z phoe: yes
2021-01-03T23:06:06Z asarch: I mean, that was the "short" version
2021-01-03T23:06:29Z _death: asarch: the value comes first
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2021-01-03T23:07:06Z phoe: _death: oh right, good catch
2021-01-03T23:07:18Z asarch: Yeah, sorry, my mistake
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2021-01-03T23:08:51Z asarch: So, 1) redefining the slot in the inherited class or 2) (defgeneric ...) and then (defmethod ...), right?
2021-01-03T23:10:06Z phoe: yes, but this looks weird to me; why would you only define an accessor on a subclass?
2021-01-03T23:10:25Z asarch: Do you know the GTK+ widget library?
2021-01-03T23:10:32Z phoe: yes, I do
2021-01-03T23:10:49Z phoe: I mean, I have heard of it, and used it in multiple applications, but not as a programmer
2021-01-03T23:11:51Z asarch: Well, in the Glade template you have a GtkTextView and to set the text you would need to:
2021-01-03T23:12:01Z asarch: (defmethod content ((instance editor))
2021-01-03T23:12:11Z asarch: (let ((buffer (gtk-text-view-get-buffer (slot-value instance 'content))
2021-01-03T23:12:26Z asarch: start-iter end-iter)
2021-01-03T23:12:37Z asarch: (setf start-iter (gtk-text-buffer-get-start-iter buffer))
2021-01-03T23:12:38Z phoe: asarch: mind using a pastebin?
2021-01-03T23:12:41Z asarch: And so one
2021-01-03T23:12:47Z asarch: *so on
2021-01-03T23:12:48Z asarch: Sorry
2021-01-03T23:13:23Z asarch: If I would have content as slot value I couldn't do later: (setf (content instance) "blaaa")
2021-01-03T23:13:45Z asarch: I mean, as an accessor
2021-01-03T23:13:52Z phoe: the editor does not have an accessor for its content slot?
2021-01-03T23:14:06Z asarch: However, in order to abstract some operations, in the super class I just need it
2021-01-03T23:14:11Z asarch: Yeah
2021-01-03T23:14:24Z phoe: why?
2021-01-03T23:14:31Z asarch: ...without any accessor at all
2021-01-03T23:14:41Z asarch: Well, that was the solution I found :'-(
2021-01-03T23:14:59Z phoe: which library for accessing GTK are you using?
2021-01-03T23:15:10Z asarch: For every widget in the dialog in the Glade template, there is a slot value in the class that wraps its operation
2021-01-03T23:15:26Z asarch: cl-cffi-gtk
2021-01-03T23:15:46Z phoe: so this library only exposes slots as its standard interface, and does not provide accessors?
2021-01-03T23:16:39Z asarch: This library only provides C "primitives" functions like (setf (gtk-dialog-title my-dialog) "Hello, folks!")
2021-01-03T23:18:21Z asarch: So, if in the dialog there is a widget a la "Name: [_____________]" in the class that wraps it I could have a slot (name :initarg :name :initform nil) and then later I could set its initial handler with (setf (slot-value 'dialog name) (gtk-builder-get-object builder "name"))
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2021-01-03T23:19:33Z asarch: So later with (defgeneric ...) and (defmethod ...) I could use it, e.g., to store its value in the model of the application: (add-data model (name dialog)) by doing the GTK+ primitives operations to extract the data from the widget
2021-01-03T23:20:23Z phoe: yes, I see
2021-01-03T23:20:44Z phoe: if it only exposes slots, I assume you could then depend on this behavior - and define your own generic function on the superclass
2021-01-03T23:20:53Z asarch: So I could write an "abstract" base class for this dialog to re-use it in later applications
2021-01-03T23:21:13Z phoe: (defmethod my-package:my-wrapper ((editor gtk:editor)) (slot-value editor 'gtk:contents))
2021-01-03T23:21:16Z phoe: something like that
2021-01-03T23:21:18Z phoe: and then use your GF
2021-01-03T23:21:33Z phoe: this isn't C++, you can define new generic functions or methods on already existing classes
2021-01-03T23:21:55Z asarch: I see
2021-01-03T23:22:54Z asarch: Is there a book for pattern solutions in Common Lisp?
2021-01-03T23:23:09Z phoe: probably Common Lisp Recipes, maybe
2021-01-03T23:23:21Z phoe: it's less about patterns and more about tips and tricks though
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2021-01-03T23:24:16Z asarch: CLOS is wonderful! It takes you one step far and beyond the rest
2021-01-03T23:27:26Z asarch: How could you know the statistics of SBCL REPL (memory available, uptime, etc)?
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2021-01-03T23:27:58Z phoe: memory: CL:ROOM
2021-01-03T23:28:11Z phoe: uptime: query the OS possibly, or get-internal-run-time
2021-01-03T23:30:04Z asarch: Thank you!
2021-01-03T23:32:09Z asarch: I miss the book of Pattern Designs for Smalltalk... :'-(
2021-01-03T23:33:01Z no-defun-allowed: Design patterns are mostly unnecessary in Common Lisp.
2021-01-03T23:33:50Z no-defun-allowed: Norving claims 16 of 23 patterns from the book are much simpler in Common Lisp or Dylan <https://norvig.com/design-patterns/design-patterns.pdf>
2021-01-03T23:35:56Z asarch: What would be the best solution for that in Common Lisp? Macros?
2021-01-03T23:36:03Z phoe: not always
2021-01-03T23:36:09Z phoe: some of them are simply built into the language
2021-01-03T23:36:21Z phoe: like the visitor pattern versus :before/:after/:around methods
2021-01-03T23:36:47Z no-defun-allowed: The presentation describes a few replacements.
2021-01-03T23:37:24Z scymtym: also, when people say "design patterns", they often mean design patterns in the context of object oriented design which has assigning responsibilities in the form of methods to classes at its cores. since common lisp classes don't have any associated behavior, the approach does not translate very well
2021-01-03T23:37:34Z phoe: ^
2021-01-03T23:37:35Z no-defun-allowed: Slide 10 tells us gains are achieved mostly with first-class types, then first-class functions, then macros, then method combination, multiple dispatch and modules.
2021-01-03T23:38:07Z asarch: However, Common Lisp actually does everything (almost) with macros, doesn't it? Even (defclass ...) is a macross, isn't it? (accordingly with The Art of the Meta-Object Protocol book)
2021-01-03T23:38:14Z phoe: no
2021-01-03T23:38:31Z asarch: No?
2021-01-03T23:38:32Z phoe: DEFCLASS is a macro, but you can equivalently call ENSURE-CLASS which is not a macro
2021-01-03T23:38:34Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe, but most of the patterns can be solved with already existing syntax and forms.
2021-01-03T23:38:56Z phoe: it's a function! and actually DEFCLASS, if you read the MOP, should expand into a call to ENSURE-CLASS
2021-01-03T23:39:20Z phoe: the macro is just for nicer syntax and some compile-time trickery and compile-time validation.
2021-01-03T23:39:22Z no-defun-allowed: Specifically, using first-class types and functions, and method combination and multiple dispatch, which are a property of generic functions.
2021-01-03T23:40:15Z scymtym: special variables also solve some of the problems of parametrizing behavior or "injecting dependencies"
2021-01-03T23:41:45Z asarch: Is a meta-object protocol the same as a pattern design?
2021-01-03T23:41:49Z phoe: oh yes, java's famous Context and Dependency Injection (CDI), also known in lisp as dynamic variables
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2021-01-03T23:42:01Z phoe: asarch: nope, MOP describes how CLOS is implemented and works under the hood
2021-01-03T23:42:40Z asarch: However, you could also have your own MOP just like Perl via Moose has it, right?
2021-01-03T23:42:59Z phoe: I have no idea what Moose is or how it does things
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2021-01-03T23:43:22Z no-defun-allowed: Moose is built on Class::MOP, which is already in Perl.
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2021-01-03T23:44:55Z asarch: That is not a "pattern design", right?
2021-01-03T23:45:03Z phoe: not really
2021-01-03T23:45:13Z _death: you could describe common solutions to problems as patterns the way the gang of four book describes them (problem statement, forces or constraints, implementation issues, etc.)
2021-01-03T23:45:15Z phoe: metaobject protocols are about tweaking the object systems
2021-01-03T23:45:21Z phoe: patterns are... what _death said
2021-01-03T23:46:16Z no-defun-allowed: I use the metaobject protocol to attach additional information to classes and instances, to change how instances are allocated, and things like that. Design patterns are what you do with instances.
2021-01-03T23:47:18Z asarch: I see
2021-01-03T23:47:26Z mfiano: design patterns are purported master programming advice passed on to unsuspecting novices in languages without macros
2021-01-03T23:47:39Z asarch: One is consequence of another
2021-01-03T23:48:39Z no-defun-allowed: But it's not only macros. And all of them could be done without a meta-object protocol.
2021-01-03T23:49:23Z scymtym: implementing a WITH-FOO macro as a function CALL-WITH-FOO and a minimal expander (with-foo (…) BODY) → (call-with-foo (lambda (…) BODY)) could be a proper common lisp pattern in the sense _death mentioned. the problem is too avoid code bloat and allow some redefinition of the macro's behavior without recompiling all uses
2021-01-03T23:49:37Z _death: the AMOP book says it presents a particular MOP (for CLOS), but that the idea could be implemented for other (possibly non-Lisp) object systems.. so it's possible to imagine a Metaobject Protocol language design pattern
2021-01-03T23:51:39Z asarch: One step further and beyond...
2021-01-03T23:51:45Z scymtym: regarding AMOP, ENSURE-THING-USING-THING could be considered a design pattern for creating and updating bindings in an environment
2021-01-03T23:51:46Z _death: then there are obvious architectural patterns like (rule) Production system or Blackboard system..
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2021-01-03T23:59:26Z _death: I'm also reminded of https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/ss-revisited.txt
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2021-01-04T00:57:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I tend to think of DI more as "passing arguments to functions" than "dynamic variables"
2021-01-04T00:57:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Spring's XML stuff or Guice might be more like dynamic variables, but those are both abominations
2021-01-04T00:59:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: One way to do DI in lisp is "defun over lambda" (defun (dep1 dep2) (lambda (&rest other-args) ...))
2021-01-04T01:00:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: ... (defun foo ...)
2021-01-04T01:02:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: scymtym: that video is cool; my only objection is there's no code for me to try out...
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2021-01-04T01:03:56Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: i can try to publish an initial version tomorrow. i just didn't want to put too much effort into a thing that i wouldn't use myself
2021-01-04T01:05:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: scymtym: yeah, makes sense, I have a "lisp-sandbox" repository on github for this sort of demo
2021-01-04T01:06:25Z scymtym: i will probably just push one eclector branch and one linedit branch
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2021-01-04T01:07:22Z scymtym: the highlighter is currently an eclector example that got a bit out of hand
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2021-01-04T01:09:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: One thing that would be useful with eclector is a more intelligent way to diff CL code
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2021-01-04T01:11:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: git supports custom diff tools, and a syntax-aware diff for CL would be really helpful
2021-01-04T01:12:02Z scymtym: i believe pfdietz and colleagues have done that
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2021-01-04T01:13:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting, I've looked for this every couple months and never run across an implementation that would work.
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2021-01-04T01:37:40Z mfiano: Xach: did you see my message from yesterday?
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2021-01-04T01:41:45Z Xach: mfiano: i'm not sure
2021-01-04T01:42:30Z mfiano: Xach: I was asking about your reecent octree usage.
2021-01-04T01:42:37Z Xach: mfiano: i did not see it
2021-01-04T01:42:59Z Xach: What would you like to know?
2021-01-04T01:43:28Z mfiano: I wanted to know if you used an existing library, or wrote an implementation yourself. I've spent the last 3 days writing a high performance octree for gamedev stuff, but there are a lot of corner cases my algorithm books don't cover, and invariants aren't holding :(
2021-01-04T01:44:15Z Xach: mfiano: ah. i wrote an implementation myself. i put the code on github. it is simplistic. i linked to the reference i followed (original was in javascript). i use it only for quantizing so its suitability for other uses might not be great.
2021-01-04T01:44:34Z Xach: https://github.com/xach/octree/blob/master/octree.lisp
2021-01-04T01:44:40Z mfiano: Thanks, I'll have a look
2021-01-04T01:45:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I like using keywords for package and systemn names, so I get autocomplete for ql:quickload and in-package :)
2021-01-04T01:45:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: I probably should figure out how to make slime-company special-case these forms
2021-01-04T01:48:25Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: hmmm, I understand the idea
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2021-01-04T01:54:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are there any libraries for mutation testing?
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2021-01-04T01:55:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have a library I'm working on where there are several "obvious" ways to generate new test cases from a passing test, and I'd like to generate three or four random assertions for each assertion I write
2021-01-04T01:58:11Z mfiano: proptesting?
2021-01-04T01:59:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not exactly
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2021-01-04T02:00:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, if I have an assertion (is (= a (func b))), automatically rewriting it to an equivalent one like (is (= a (func2 (inv-func2 (func b)))))
2021-01-04T02:00:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: And rerunning the assertion
2021-01-04T02:01:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: (where func2 and inv-func2 are a function and its inverse)
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2021-01-04T02:26:00Z thmprover: Uh, nconc is viewed as...bad form, right? In the sense that there's a better, more idiomatic way to do the same thing, correct?
2021-01-04T02:27:57Z aeth: depends
2021-01-04T02:28:29Z aeth: if it's nconc on something you've created locally without any literals (so no quote/quasiquote) then it's fine, but it's a microoptimization that might not make a difference
2021-01-04T02:28:53Z thmprover: Gotchya.
2021-01-04T02:28:58Z aeth: this is fine... (nconc (list 1 2 3) (list 4 5 6))
2021-01-04T02:29:03Z aeth: this needs to be append... (append '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
2021-01-04T02:29:19Z aeth: And if your list function could be used as a helper function in a macro, it has to be append, because source s-expressions are like the latter
2021-01-04T02:29:27Z aeth: at least, afaik. Your style guide may differ
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2021-01-04T02:30:38Z aeth: thmprover: you might also want to consider this variant, because it's more even generic... (concatenate 'list '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6))
2021-01-04T02:31:09Z thmprover: Hmm...that might work better, for what I'm doing.
2021-01-04T02:31:22Z aeth: that last one could take a vector or a string or (afaik) even a user-defined sequence if the implementation has extensible sequences.
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2021-01-04T02:33:27Z thmprover: That's a great point, I'm almost certainly going to be working with user-defined sequences. Thanks :)
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2021-01-04T02:51:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sometimes you can re-think your algorithms to avoid appending
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2021-01-04T02:52:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. passing an adjustable vector around and vector-push-extending the new lists onto the vector
2021-01-04T02:53:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then just writing a version of map that takes such a vector and processes each list in the vector successively.
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2021-01-04T03:22:06Z loke[m]: Hello
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2021-01-04T03:26:44Z no-defun-allowed: Hello loke.
2021-01-04T03:27:08Z loke[m]: no-defun-allowed I thought you were in the US?
2021-01-04T03:27:24Z no-defun-allowed: Nope.
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2021-01-04T03:31:32Z loke[m]: AU?
2021-01-04T03:31:39Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, Australia.
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2021-01-04T04:02:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-01-04T04:22:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: hi beach
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2021-01-04T05:25:32Z charles`: Why do default arguments for macros get evaluated?
2021-01-04T05:25:47Z beach: Er, what?
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2021-01-04T05:26:55Z beach: charles`: No macro arguments are evaluated.
2021-01-04T05:27:11Z beach: charles`: The entire macro form turn into a single argument of the macro function.
2021-01-04T05:27:54Z charles`: (defmacro test (&optional (a (+ 3 4)))
2021-01-04T05:27:54Z charles`:            ,a)
2021-01-04T05:28:05Z charles`: (macroexpand '(test))
2021-01-04T05:28:13Z no-defun-allowed: If you put the arguments into the form produced, they get evaluated again after macro-expansion _as per usual_. eg with (defmacro foo (&optional (x 'x)) `(1+ x)), (foo) will expand to (1+ x), which will eventually evaluate X.
2021-01-04T05:28:45Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, evaluating the default values in lambda lists is also normal. But you couldn't write ,a as there is no backquote (just a will suffice).
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2021-01-04T05:29:03Z charles`: it is supposed to be `,a
2021-01-04T05:29:21Z no-defun-allowed: If you want to bind A to (+ 3 4) to put (+ 3 4) in the expansion, then quote it.
2021-01-04T05:29:40Z no-defun-allowed: `,a ≡ a
2021-01-04T05:30:25Z charles`: So I can't have unevaluated default arguments?
2021-01-04T05:30:52Z no-defun-allowed: You quote them, eg (defmacro test (&optional (a '(+ 3 4))) a)
2021-01-04T05:33:25Z charles`: I see, that is most unexpected
2021-01-04T05:34:19Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure how it's out of the ordinary, admittedly.
2021-01-04T05:37:24Z charles`: It makes sense if you call it a lambda list, but it if you call it the parameter list for a macro it is confusing. Someone would see that the default argument is quoted and might think that their argument should be quoted as well
2021-01-04T05:38:26Z no-defun-allowed: Lambda lists are lambda lists*, regardless of if I have a lambda list in DEFUN, DEFMACRO, DESTRUCTURING-BIND, MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND, and so on.
2021-01-04T05:39:08Z no-defun-allowed: *Except that macros have extended lambda lists, with &environment and &whole from memory.
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2021-01-04T05:39:59Z charles`: It certainly makes sense when put that way
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2021-01-04T05:58:58Z ldbeth: good aftrenoon
2021-01-04T05:59:36Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldbeth.
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2021-01-04T06:03:51Z ldbeth: are there any projects implement aggressive optimizer/inliner/partial evaluator for a subset of CL?
2021-01-04T06:05:51Z no-defun-allowed: How aggressive is agressive? Most compilers will do some partial evaluation.
2021-01-04T06:07:46Z beach: Doing that kind of stuff in an implementation-independent way would imply source-to-source transformations, and that then becomes a mess when it comes to debugging, because source information would be in terms of the transformed code.
2021-01-04T06:08:07Z ldbeth: say given a (fib 45) it can unfold it to constant fixnum
2021-01-04T06:08:43Z beach: Stuff like that is undecidable in the general case.
2021-01-04T06:09:28Z no-defun-allowed: How long would you wait for (A 3 4), where A is the Ackermann function?
2021-01-04T06:09:32Z beach: ldbeth: Imagine that, instead of (fib 45) you said (ackermann 5 10)
2021-01-04T06:09:35Z beach: Heh.
2021-01-04T06:11:09Z beach: ldbeth: A large part of the art of partial evaluation has to do with choosing a decidable approximation of an otherwise undecidable domain.
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2021-01-04T06:12:17Z ldbeth: Is it pratically feasible if unfolding aborts when the result exceeds biggest fixnum?
2021-01-04T06:12:34Z beach: Not good enough.
2021-01-04T06:13:10Z mfiano: How can you say the result scales linearly in a general case?
2021-01-04T06:13:13Z beach: Do the math.  How long does it take for a modern processor to execute most-positive-fixnum iterations.
2021-01-04T06:13:36Z beach: Even if it scales linearly, that's not good enough.
2021-01-04T06:13:53Z mfiano: Right.
2021-01-04T06:14:16Z ldbeth: http://akrl.sdf.org/gccemacs.html#org0324e5b
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2021-01-04T06:14:54Z ldbeth: It starts get me interested because GCC Emacs does better than CL on some trival benchmarks
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2021-01-04T06:16:04Z beach: Trivial benchmarks usually don't provide any useful information.
2021-01-04T06:16:29Z ldbeth: GCC Elisp takes to run 0.00 fibn from elisp-benchmarks, and from the article it implies the fibn function get unfolded to a constant
2021-01-04T06:16:41Z mfiano: The speedups you see here should only be taken as very roughly indicative of the speedup you may see in real code. When in doubt, benchmark your particular domain on the hardware you intend to run it on.
2021-01-04T06:17:32Z ldbeth: I do realize that trivial benchmarks usually does not reflect pratical performance
2021-01-04T06:18:19Z beach: ldbeth: Also, no sane person would write a call to FIB with a constant value in production code.  It would be a read-time evaluation.
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2021-01-04T06:19:08Z ldbeth: sure, in CL we can manually #.
2021-01-04T06:19:59Z beach: The only way I can see that result is if FIB is treated specially.
2021-01-04T06:20:15Z beach: If not, you should try it with the Ackermann function.
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2021-01-04T06:21:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: ACL2 proves theorems in a total subset of CL, right?
2021-01-04T06:21:54Z ldbeth: fiddlerwoaroof: yes
2021-01-04T06:22:15Z ldbeth: but it can hardly be used to optimize "real" CL code
2021-01-04T06:22:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, no one has tried yet :)
2021-01-04T06:23:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are other total languages that are trying to be useful: the Dhall expression language and Idris, for two
2021-01-04T06:23:28Z aeth: Write an optimizing compiler that detects when benchmark authors are trying to bench a naively-written Fibonacci number calculation and replace it at compile time with the explicit formula to get the Fibonacci number...
2021-01-04T06:24:29Z ldbeth: ACL2 mainly aims to hardware verification people, they have very different need from a "pratical" programming language
2021-01-04T06:24:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not dying that, I'm just saying it's an existence proof of what you asked for
2021-01-04T06:25:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/dying/denying/
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2021-01-04T06:28:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: The subset of CL that ACL2 can prove theorems about can be aggressively partialy evaluated
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2021-01-04T06:30:11Z ldbeth: however GCC Emacs optimize the fib function written with setf as well as using tail recursion
2021-01-04T06:30:42Z ldbeth: an applicative subset is not comparable
2021-01-04T06:33:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does gccemacs implement a tracing JIT?
2021-01-04T06:34:12Z ldbeth: no, it precompiles ELisp files
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2021-01-04T06:34:50Z ldbeth: "Despite what the name suggest libgccjit is usable not just for making jitters but for any other kind of compiler."
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2021-01-04T08:27:02Z frodef`: beach: thanks for the link.
2021-01-04T08:27:58Z beach: Sure.  Enjoy! :)
2021-01-04T08:28:12Z beach: We extracted the code to a library: Clostrum.
2021-01-04T08:28:17Z frodef`: beach: btw, is the general approach SICL to conceptually live "inside" or "outside" the parameters of CL?
2021-01-04T08:28:36Z beach: I am not sure I know what that means.
2021-01-04T08:28:37Z frodef`: beach: not sure how to describe it better... :)
2021-01-04T08:28:47Z beach: Example?
2021-01-04T08:29:49Z frodef`: do you thing of the CL environment as a "subsystem", or is the CL environment the "end goal"...
2021-01-04T08:29:55Z no-defun-allowed: To do things outside the scope of of Common Lisp? Well, sure, there's threads, atomics, weak values, networking, so on and so forth, which weren't always de-facto standard. So everyone lives outside Common Lisp.
2021-01-04T08:30:06Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, never mind.
2021-01-04T08:30:19Z frodef`: (sorry again for such a imprecise question, I'v obviously not thought it very well through.)
2021-01-04T08:30:31Z beach: frodef`: The goal is CLOSOS, if that answers the question.
2021-01-04T08:31:08Z beach: So yes, all the goodies that no-defun-allowed mentioned are needed.
2021-01-04T08:31:29Z frodef`: sure, like every CL implementation.
2021-01-04T08:32:14Z beach: I take it that doesn't answer your question, then. :(
2021-01-04T08:32:15Z no-defun-allowed: Having a good CL environment with as much stuff as possible would be the end goal to me.
2021-01-04T08:33:21Z beach: frodef`: I do want a conforming and strict Common Lisp implementation, but there is plenty of other functionality needed.  And I also want to explore all the ways the standard allows in order to simplify the code.
2021-01-04T08:33:42Z no-defun-allowed: Or do you mean that the Lisp environment is a subsystem of a larger programming system, with an external editor, a profiler, a version control system, and other tools?
2021-01-04T08:34:12Z beach: Oh, that one!  Yes, definitely a CLIM-based IDE is what I am aiming for.
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2021-01-04T08:36:18Z frodef`: how about a system that is "good" (i.e. "great!") and also just reasonably compatible with CL programs?
2021-01-04T08:36:49Z frodef`: no-defun-allowed: something like that I guess.
2021-01-04T08:36:51Z no-defun-allowed: I want to work on putting "modern" stuff like high performance IO and concurrent programming tools in Common Lisp, but in a way that doesn't completely mess up my programming style, and if I have to hack an implementation to get it to work, it will most likely be SICL when it's ready for that.
2021-01-04T08:37:08Z no-defun-allowed: I don't see SICL breaking compatibility in Common Lisp any time soon?
2021-01-04T08:37:35Z beach: frodef`: That is certainly an option, but I don't want that to be the only thing.  I do want to create a good Common Lisp system for people who are currently Common Lisp programmers.
2021-01-04T08:38:24Z beach: frodef`: The problem is mainly that I am not smart enough to change the language.  I just don't have the experience that the good people who wrote the standard did, even back then.
2021-01-04T08:41:19Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Exactly!
2021-01-04T08:42:03Z no-defun-allowed: The way I see it, making breaking changes not only leaves you with the pieces if something goes wrong, it leaves you with everything else which is now broken if everything goes right.
2021-01-04T08:42:13Z beach: frodef`: The first-class global environments is such a thing that it is transparent to conforming Common Lisp programs, but it gives a whole new tool if the programmer wants to go beyond the standard.
2021-01-04T08:42:47Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Very philosophical. :)
2021-01-04T08:43:03Z frodef`: beach: yup, seems a good idea.
2021-01-04T08:44:13Z beach: I am still not sure whether your question was answered, but I hope you have some more hints.  What was the reason for your question?
2021-01-04T08:44:16Z no-defun-allowed: Although hardly related, I have this opinion after a discussion with my favourite co-author about "Why Turtl Switched From CL to JavaScript" <https://lisp-journey.gitlab.io/blog/why-turtl-switched-from-lisp-to-js/>, in which the author was mainly stuffed, because they began writing asynchronous code, and had to either patch in, or completely rewrite, all this synchronous stuff that already existed.
2021-01-04T08:44:53Z frodef`: beach: sure thanks, sorry again for being wishy-washy.
2021-01-04T08:46:06Z beach: No problem.  But what was the reason? :)
2021-01-04T08:46:08Z frodef`: I do think CL have some warts and shortcomings. Warts like e.g. the sequence functions that I sometimes see as both awkward to use and incurs extra O(N) performance hits.
2021-01-04T08:46:55Z frodef`: beach: reason being general interest and trying to understand the SICL project, combined with my own related experience I guess.
2021-01-04T08:47:07Z beach: frodef`: Yes, I have seen hints about your opinions lately.
2021-01-04T08:48:36Z beach: frodef`: The reason for the SICL project is that I wanted to improve on implementations, but not the language (for which I am not smart enough), but the improvements I could see would be unacceptable to maintainers of existing implementations.
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2021-01-04T08:49:36Z beach: frodef`: In particular, I want to improve on development and debugging tools.  I am always amazed when I see how some people here think Emacs+SLIME represent the best development environment around, no matter the language.
2021-01-04T08:49:46Z frodef`: beach: right.
2021-01-04T08:50:08Z beach: I mean, calling the "SLIME debugger" a "debugger" is a joke.
2021-01-04T08:50:18Z beach: ... as my paper on debugging explains.
2021-01-04T08:50:19Z frodef`: beach: that brings me to antoher of my pet peevs, the lack of a recursive debugger/repl in SLIME.
2021-01-04T08:50:26Z frodef`: s/peeves
2021-01-04T08:50:33Z frodef`: ...isn't it?
2021-01-04T08:50:42Z phoe: recursive? what do you mean?
2021-01-04T08:50:46Z phoe: you can nest debuggers
2021-01-04T08:50:57Z phoe: and you can interact with the REPL while the debugger is open
2021-01-04T08:51:32Z frodef`: phoe: have you used ELI?
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2021-01-04T08:51:46Z phoe: frodef`: nope. what is it like?
2021-01-04T08:51:47Z beach: frodef`: I don't consider "staring at a backtrace when things go wrong" a "debugger".  I want to be able to set breakpoints without recompiling the code, and I want to be able to step from a breakpoint.
2021-01-04T08:52:24Z frodef`: beach: yes, that too.
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2021-01-04T08:53:14Z frodef`: phoe: what I think is essential, is basically to be able to do this: ...
2021-01-04T08:53:21Z beach: And, if I run ASDF from the SLIME REPL, I get no presentations to click on, and I get compiler messages as text that I then have to manually match to the source code.
2021-01-04T08:53:41Z mfiano: Sly stickers, and breaking stickers, are a vast improvement over the SLIME debugging experience, and print traditional "print debugging".
2021-01-04T08:53:46Z frodef`: (let ((*dynamic-context* 'foo)) (invoke-debugger))
2021-01-04T08:53:56Z frodef`: ..and get a new, usable REPL.
2021-01-04T08:54:10Z phoe: frodef`: oh, a new one, as opposed to reusing the old one?
2021-01-04T08:54:32Z phoe: because in slime, the old REPL then ends up in that new dynamic context
2021-01-04T08:54:38Z phoe: until you leave the debugger, that is
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2021-01-04T08:55:10Z beach: mfiano: If the underlying Common Lisp implementations can't set breakpoints, I think there are limits to the possible improvements.
2021-01-04T08:55:35Z beach: mfiano: But I haven't used Sly, so I don't know how much better it is.
2021-01-04T08:55:47Z frodef`: phoe: well, maybe slime even works the way it should, but the "debugger" buffer gives me a very strong impetus to "get out of here!" immediately.
2021-01-04T08:56:04Z mfiano: Indeed. You don't have to tell me. I have seen your talks. I'm just saying there are better alternatives/companions to the "SLIME Debugger"
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2021-01-04T08:56:12Z beach: mfiano: I also seem to recall some people here mentioning features that are missing in Sly that I often use.
2021-01-04T08:56:23Z beach: mfiano: Ah, OK.
2021-01-04T08:56:26Z frodef`: phoe: maybe I should investigate slime more carefully.. :)
2021-01-04T08:56:34Z phoe: frodef`: I see and understand; still, the REPL buffer is still working even with the debugger open
2021-01-04T08:56:46Z phoe: you can minimize the buffer or keep it elsewhere while you REPL your way out of the error
2021-01-04T08:56:55Z mfiano: beach: Which features that you often use?
2021-01-04T08:57:02Z phoe: and only then hit some restart in the debugger window, or manually INVOKE-RESTART in the REPL to make it disappear
2021-01-04T08:57:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: frodef`: as far as the O(n) issues with sequence functions, most of those are solvable
2021-01-04T08:57:25Z beach: mfiano: I can't remember what it was.  I just saw someone mention it as lacking is Sly, and I recognized that I used it.
2021-01-04T08:58:04Z beach: frodef`: So, I suggest that, instead of trying to improve the language, you use your experience and knowledge to help create a better development environment.
2021-01-04T08:58:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: The SERIES package is one example of a solution
2021-01-04T08:58:08Z mfiano: The only thing I can recall off hand that is lacking in Sly over SLIME, is a contrib for SBCL's statistical profiler.
2021-01-04T08:58:26Z beach: That doesn't ring a bell.
2021-01-04T08:58:34Z frodef`: beach: sure, trying to get up to speed again :)
2021-01-04T08:58:49Z beach: mfiano: Maybe I should just try Sly and let you know when I wanted something that is missing.
2021-01-04T08:58:51Z phoe: frodef`: there's an upcoming video where I show the basics of this thing off
2021-01-04T08:59:00Z beach: frodef`: Great!
2021-01-04T08:59:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: mfiano: is there slime-media in SLY?
2021-01-04T08:59:07Z phoe: it'll be available tomorrow evening and I'll post it on Reddit once it's made available
2021-01-04T08:59:24Z mfiano: Sly is forked off of SLIME with nothing really removed, just features added and bugs fixed that weren't in the interest of SLIME. Of course, there are probably some exceptions to this, which I cannot recall off hand.
2021-01-04T08:59:36Z frodef`: phoe: nice! "upcoming" as in "there's already a series of videos on related stuff"?
2021-01-04T08:59:36Z phoe: presentations
2021-01-04T08:59:51Z phoe: frodef`: yes
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2021-01-04T08:59:58Z mfiano: In Sly, everything is a button and can be clicked on to inspect/further manipulate.
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2021-01-04T09:00:09Z mfiano: So no, no presentations. We have more useful buttons.
2021-01-04T09:00:24Z phoe: someone asked me for an interview about the Common Lisp condition system and it turned out to be an interview about Common Lisp in general
2021-01-04T09:00:40Z beach: Oh, nice!  Who is "someone"?
2021-01-04T09:00:41Z phoe: and the video will go public tomorrow, showing off my majestic technical screensharing setup too
2021-01-04T09:00:59Z phoe: beach: you'll see
2021-01-04T09:01:01Z phoe: :D
2021-01-04T09:01:03Z beach: Heh, OK.
2021-01-04T09:05:36Z mfiano: One nice feature of Sly, is a function which can be used to send arbitrary data to the REPL from CL. I use this in a game engine to be able to cast a ray through 3-space where the mouse cursor is, and return a CLOS instance of the first object intersecting that raycast, so "mouse picking" in a projected 3-dimensional space.
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2021-01-04T09:06:27Z mfiano: But Stickers, as I've mentioned, is one of it's main selling points for me.
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2021-01-04T09:07:38Z frodef`: phoe: is there a link to said video series?
2021-01-04T09:07:40Z flip214: mfiano: is that a kind of dev env like Unity?
2021-01-04T09:08:35Z phoe: frodef`: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTx-VKTe8yLyKtsZhfHbQ6N9u_5E5nbHK
2021-01-04T09:08:43Z mfiano: I have a game engine I've been working on for years, that takes a lot of inspiration from Unity (and fixes a lot of its mistakes [and admittedly creates more still])
2021-01-04T09:08:59Z phoe: oh bother, the video is already there :O
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2021-01-04T09:09:08Z phoe: even though it's unlisted!
2021-01-04T09:09:12Z frodef`: phoe: thanks!
2021-01-04T09:09:21Z phoe just broke the veil of silence
2021-01-04T09:09:37Z frodef`: phoe: why the veil/unlisting?
2021-01-04T09:10:28Z flip214: mfiano: I'd love to have something unity-like (but not too like it ;) in CL... that could enable quite a lot of quick game ideas
2021-01-04T09:10:42Z frodef`: phoe: oh.. the /series/ wasn't unlisted, I guess.
2021-01-04T09:10:44Z phoe: frodef`: it's scheduled for a minor premiere tomorrow.
2021-01-04T09:10:49Z phoe: yes, the playlist is public
2021-01-04T09:11:12Z phoe: and a public playlist can contain links to unlisted videos.
2021-01-04T09:11:28Z frodef`: phoe: right. thanks again.
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2021-01-04T09:11:51Z phoe notifies the playlist owner and waits for the scolding
2021-01-04T09:14:01Z mfiano: Sadly my game engine is not documented yet, and aimed at professional-quality games, not quick prototypical projects. Its focus is on interactivity, thus removing the need for an "editor". For example, there is a rather complex DEFINE-PREFAB macro that can be used to describe arbitrary sub-trees that can be instantiated or spliced into other sub-trees to be instantiated with them. C-c C-c'ing any of
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2021-01-04T09:14:03Z mfiano: these as a game is running is an easy way to redefine large portions of the game. There is a DEFINE-* form for everything actually, including individual GLSL shader functions.
2021-01-04T09:15:04Z flip214: sounds cool!
2021-01-04T09:15:24Z frodef`: phoe video: "... why don't everybody do this if it has been known for a long time?", indeed.
2021-01-04T09:16:10Z no-defun-allowed: They're functional programmers, so they should know the answer.
2021-01-04T09:16:40Z no-defun-allowed: And, of course, they know the answer is because no one wrote a paper detailing the denotational semantics and underpinning by the lambda calculus or something like that.
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2021-01-04T09:18:48Z no-defun-allowed: (But actually, someone told me that without the presence of state, having the dynamic environment doesn't matter. Also, aren't they supposed to not have bugs or something? I'll stop now.)
2021-01-04T09:19:38Z flip214: mfiano: is it open source, per chance?
2021-01-04T09:19:55Z mfiano: flip214: The problem is it's a lot of work, as evidenced by working at it for about a decade now, and while it can be used to make games currently, it is still far from ready. The sad part is, even with a complete game engine that is general-purpose enough for the kind of game you want to make, game development is an even longer process. Just the playtest-tweak feedback loop could take a year or
2021-01-04T09:19:56Z mfiano: longer, and that's after all the game logic, assets, have allocated a lot of time. I wouldn't advice anyone to make an engine if that are looking to make a game, heh.
2021-01-04T09:20:32Z mfiano: Yes it is, but I wouldn't recommend using it yet, not that it'd make much sense, being such a large codebase and without documentation yet.
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2021-01-04T09:21:08Z frodef`: no-defun-allowed: the idea that a software system should not be designed on the assumption that there are no bugs, seems to be lost.
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2021-01-04T09:25:13Z mfiano: It's quite a large project, and has been refactored several times, and I still wouldn't call it the nicest code I've written. Just the math support library is 15hloc and growing, which is quite a lot for Lisp.
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2021-01-04T09:25:27Z mfiano: 15kloc*
2021-01-04T09:27:16Z flip214: mfiano: well, make it a well-known project and hope for volunteers to help clean it up?!
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2021-01-04T09:28:40Z mfiano: My goal right now is to add some of the missing features that are absolutely needed, so that I can finalize its API and begin documenting it. Only then can I advertise or recommend its use
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2021-01-04T09:30:52Z mfiano: I was prepared to give a talk on phoe's stream soon, but I decided against that, as I really want to stabilize it first (sorry phoe).
2021-01-04T09:32:13Z phoe: no problem, quality before quantity
2021-01-04T09:32:44Z mfiano: I might consider giving a theory talk on why I think CL is the best language for gamedev, but as far as demonstrating my project(s), I don't think that is a good idea.
2021-01-04T09:35:18Z frodef`: Is there really no way to add your own slime shortcuts? The comma commands, I mean.
2021-01-04T09:40:58Z phoe: frodef`: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/fb12bac676ab51b75be19197e21ab4674479d627/contrib/slime-repl.el#L1491-L1493
2021-01-04T09:41:09Z phoe: that's the implementation for ,restart-inferior-lisp
2021-01-04T09:41:42Z phoe: see above for more examples
2021-01-04T09:42:12Z frodef`: phoe: right, thanks.
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2021-01-04T09:51:09Z beach: phoe: "VAR-ee-able", not "var-EYE-able"
2021-01-04T09:51:45Z phoe: beach: thanks, I'm trying to fix this :D
2021-01-04T09:52:30Z beach: Your written English is quite good, so I am aiming for perfection. :)
2021-01-04T09:53:51Z beach: "un-w-eye-nding" not "un-wind-ing"
2021-01-04T09:55:15Z phoe: I remember that one too
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2021-01-04T09:58:11Z flip214: beach: +1, though I'm not sure how much improvement you can get (or expect)
2021-01-04T09:58:48Z beach: From what?
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2021-01-04T10:00:30Z flip214: from people's speeches
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2021-01-04T10:01:41Z beach: Like I said, phoe's written English is quite good, and he has only a few major quirks, so I think there is hope. :)
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2021-01-04T10:02:38Z beach: For speakers of German pronouncing English `v' as an English `w' I have much more work to do. :)
2021-01-04T10:02:39Z flip214: "only a few major quirks" would get me a MAJOR look from my daughter ;)
2021-01-04T10:03:45Z beach: I don't understand.
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2021-01-04T10:06:48Z flip214: My daughter opines that I've committed some major faults in her (and her siblings) education, being too sincere or outright and similar stuff
2021-01-04T10:07:39Z beach: Ah, I see.
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2021-01-04T10:12:15Z beach: flip214: I see huge differences in my students, with respect to the willingness to learn and to be humiliated and embarrassed (which is an essential part of learning).  My estimate is that phoe prefers to learn and that he can deal with humiliation and embarrassment, especially since he knows me and my intentions.
2021-01-04T10:12:40Z beach: For your offspring, you need to tread carefully according to the attitude of each one.
2021-01-04T10:13:33Z frodef`: beach: differences in what direction? Or do you mean individual differences?
2021-01-04T10:14:03Z beach: Individual differences in attitude toward learning new stuff.
2021-01-04T10:14:33Z frodef`: right, at first I thought you meant an overall trend over the years.
2021-01-04T10:14:41Z beach: No, not at all.
2021-01-04T10:14:56Z frodef`: good :)
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2021-01-04T10:21:08Z flip214: beach: most of that is just good-natured leg-pulling... and everything that we've done wrong it's too late to change now anyway ;)
2021-01-04T10:21:28Z beach: Sure.
2021-01-04T10:22:01Z beach: Also parents have a tendency to hugely exaggerate their influence on their children.
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2021-01-04T10:27:51Z ralt: I personally think the "praise in public, blame in private" motto is not a too bad one
2021-01-04T10:28:14Z ralt: especially for things like correcting english, doing it in PM isn't too much of a chore, and would potentially avoid the off-topic in #lisp ;-)
2021-01-04T10:28:27Z beach: Point taken.
2021-01-04T10:29:24Z flip214: but then all the other people couldn't learn at the same time, increasing beach's work by a factor > 1!
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2021-01-04T10:35:20Z beach: phoe: This interview is an excellent exposure of Common Lisp to (I assume) people who did not yet know much of it.
2021-01-04T10:38:01Z phoe bows
2021-01-04T10:38:04Z phoe: hope that it works well
2021-01-04T10:39:22Z beach: At 52 minutes, that implementation is known as "shallow binding".
2021-01-04T10:39:58Z phoe: beach: thanks
2021-01-04T10:40:07Z phoe adds a note for second edition for TCLCS
2021-01-04T10:41:32Z frodef`: beach: do you have thread-safe shallow binding for sicl?
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2021-01-04T10:41:52Z beach: My plan is to use deep binding.
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2021-01-04T10:42:06Z frodef`: ok
2021-01-04T10:42:37Z frodef`: it's an interesting problem I think.
2021-01-04T10:42:57Z beach: I am kind of the co-designer of the technique used by SBCL. :)
2021-01-04T10:43:31Z frodef`: beach: cool, do you have a pointer to info?
2021-01-04T10:43:55Z beach: Not really.  It was designed together with dan_b some 20 years ago.
2021-01-04T10:44:26Z frodef`: ..an executive summary, then? :)
2021-01-04T10:44:28Z beach: I counted on him to do the real implementation work, which apparently he did.
2021-01-04T10:45:24Z beach: Number the symbols, or at least the ones that are bound.  Provide a thread-specific slot in the thread object.  Put old values on the stack.
2021-01-04T10:45:56Z beach: The thread object contains an array of slots, indexed by the symbol number.
2021-01-04T10:47:12Z beach: So access to a special variable is: Go to the thread object, and index the vector with the symbol number.
2021-01-04T10:47:47Z beach: Global values have to be handled specially.  I forget what we came up with.
2021-01-04T10:49:22Z phoe: if the thread-specific slot is EQ to some unbound value, visit the thread-independent global value stored somewhere?
2021-01-04T10:49:32Z phoe: that's the first thing that comes to my mind
2021-01-04T10:49:49Z frodef`: beach: isn't that O(1)-ish shallow binding?
2021-01-04T10:50:02Z beach: Yes, that was the idea.
2021-01-04T10:50:12Z beach: Not cheap, but O(1).
2021-01-04T10:51:41Z beach: phoe: Not quite.  The latest binding can be unbound which is valid.
2021-01-04T10:51:50Z beach: That's what PROGV does as I recall.
2021-01-04T10:52:20Z phoe: huh? can it make a variable unbound?
2021-01-04T10:52:44Z beach: Yes, I think the phrase is "binds it and then makes it unbound" or something like that.
2021-01-04T10:52:54Z phoe: > progv creates new dynamic variable bindings and executes each form using those bindings. Each form is evaluated in order.
2021-01-04T10:52:57Z phoe: clhs progv
2021-01-04T10:52:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm
2021-01-04T10:53:24Z phoe: I don't think PROGV can ever make a dynavar unbound
2021-01-04T10:54:07Z phoe: which then means that the existence of *any* binding causes the variable to be bound
2021-01-04T10:54:10Z beach: If too few values are supplied, the remaining symbols are bound and then made to have no value"
2021-01-04T10:54:16Z beach: I didn't mean "unbind"
2021-01-04T10:54:22Z phoe: ...oh wait a second...
2021-01-04T10:54:23Z beach: I meant "made to have no value".
2021-01-04T10:54:42Z phoe: ...oh shit
2021-01-04T10:54:46Z phoe stares
2021-01-04T10:54:57Z phoe: I was completely unaware of this
2021-01-04T10:55:16Z phoe: oh well then, s/some unbound value/some marker value that is different from the unbound value/
2021-01-04T10:55:28Z beach: So you can have a recent binding with no value shadowing a less recent one with a value.
2021-01-04T10:55:41Z beach: And SYMBOL-VALUE will then signal an error.
2021-01-04T10:55:53Z beach: Sure, that might work.
2021-01-04T10:56:44Z ralt: oooh 22:30 is actually an a-ha moment for me
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2021-01-04T11:00:59Z phoe: ralt: what exactly?
2021-01-04T11:01:17Z ralt: the fact that handlers are just functions that are called normally at this part of the stack
2021-01-04T11:01:55Z ralt: this makes it obvious why this is not unwinding the stack
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2021-01-04T11:04:08Z phoe: (with-shameless-plug (princ "that's a sneak-peek of the contents of TCLCS, if you ever decide to read it"))
2021-01-04T11:04:13Z beach: It is very simple.  Yet, other languages haven't figured it out.
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2021-01-04T11:04:45Z beach: phoe: I am currently reading it.  I was given it for christmas.
2021-01-04T11:04:53Z phoe: beach: I know, you told me
2021-01-04T11:04:56Z beach: Oh. :(
2021-01-04T11:05:02Z beach: Memory!
2021-01-04T11:05:53Z phoe: no problem, I'm here to remind you :D
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2021-01-04T11:06:15Z beach: Good.  Can I hire you full time to do that?
2021-01-04T11:07:01Z ralt: phoe: it has my name on it, I have to buy it anyway :P
2021-01-04T11:07:43Z beach: phoe:  I don't  know the interviewer, but I take it it's about functional programming, usually, yes?
2021-01-04T11:08:34Z phoe: ralt: :D
2021-01-04T11:08:46Z beach: But let me say this again.  Excellent plug for Common Lisp.  And the ease with which you manipulate the development environment is bound to impress them.
2021-01-04T11:09:04Z phoe: beach: yes, this person comes from the functional programming community and was interested by TCLCS and Lisp in general
2021-01-04T11:09:17Z beach: Great!
2021-01-04T11:09:17Z phoe: I mentioned to him that Lisp isn't really functional, but he wanted to discuss things anyway
2021-01-04T11:09:25Z beach: Yes, I see.
2021-01-04T11:09:25Z phoe: so, well, we discussed em
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2021-01-04T11:28:44Z ralt: actually, how is a retry restart not going down the stack if it's just a normal function?
2021-01-04T11:28:57Z phoe: ralt: what do you mean, not going down the stack?
2021-01-04T11:29:08Z phoe: a restart is just a structure, it's a piece of data
2021-01-04T11:29:16Z ralt: restart handler, sorry
2021-01-04T11:29:18Z phoe: it has a restart function that can perform a non-local jump
2021-01-04T11:29:22Z phoe: that's all
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2021-01-04T11:29:38Z ralt: what I mean is when you execute a function, you add a new entry to the stack
2021-01-04T11:29:54Z phoe: yes
2021-01-04T11:30:07Z ralt: if you execute a restart handler, and you pick "Retry", the naive way would be to call the function again
2021-01-04T11:30:12Z phoe: and then this entry on the stack can perform a GO or a RETURN-FROM or a THROW
2021-01-04T11:30:14Z ralt: which would add to the stack
2021-01-04T11:30:18Z phoe: and therefore unwind the stack
2021-01-04T11:30:22Z phoe: the whole magic of the condition system is because we have UNWIND-PROTECT and TAGBODY/GO/BLOCK/RETURN-FROM
2021-01-04T11:30:25Z ralt: ah, it's using a GO to unwind the stack
2021-01-04T11:30:40Z phoe: it can use any of the three
2021-01-04T11:30:49Z phoe: GO and RETURN-FROM are the most common
2021-01-04T11:31:03Z phoe: you could take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4P9lFK79hQ where I describe the topic - both halves of the video should be of interest to you
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2021-01-04T11:39:54Z flip214: phoe: the Hello-world example is on the SBCL20 shirts!
2021-01-04T11:40:07Z phoe: flip214: which example?
2021-01-04T11:40:15Z phoe: the tagbody one?
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2021-01-04T11:41:56Z flip214: yeah
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2021-01-04T11:43:40Z flip214: the example is not that great, or surprising, anyway...
2021-01-04T11:43:51Z phoe: surprising to whom exactly though
2021-01-04T11:44:17Z phoe: I've showed it to several people and the general reaction was either "wow you can do that in Lisp?" or "wow you can do BASIC in Lisp?"
2021-01-04T11:44:40Z phoe: so I'd count it as an eye-opener; a very trivial one, yes, but still
2021-01-04T11:45:25Z flip214: great, that's what I was aiming at
2021-01-04T11:46:01Z phoe: there are more contrived examples to be shown, including LOOP expansions (which I did in the video), but IMO it's important to start with something as simple as possible
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2021-01-04T11:46:23Z phoe: and the tagbody hello world example is perfect for that
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2021-01-04T11:47:37Z flip214: right!
2021-01-04T11:47:58Z flip214: and at least the previous generation (now in management) will find that familiar
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2021-01-04T11:48:13Z phoe: the "now in management" comment made me giggle
2021-01-04T11:52:38Z flip214: well, age-wise
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2021-01-04T11:53:08Z phoe: yes, I understood that
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2021-01-04T11:54:33Z flip214: so we need to have some similar-to-python snippets for such videos in 20 years, when The Next Generation has taken over
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2021-01-04T11:59:11Z Krystof: I like the optimism that the world will still exist in 20 years
2021-01-04T11:59:22Z Krystof: Happy New Year!
2021-01-04T11:59:41Z no-defun-allowed: If we don't do the impossible, we will be faced with the unthinkable.
2021-01-04T11:59:57Z no-defun-allowed: Doing the impossible requires some stubbornness though.
2021-01-04T12:00:59Z Krystof: and a good breakfast
2021-01-04T12:01:06Z flip214: Krystof: as I invested in having kids, it better not stop turning until that has paid off!
2021-01-04T12:01:25Z beach: Krystof: You too.
2021-01-04T12:01:37Z flip214: you can surely relate to that...
2021-01-04T12:01:57Z flip214: Krystof: so you're moving to France?
2021-01-04T12:03:14Z Krystof: what?  No, not currently planning to
2021-01-04T12:03:39Z flip214: well, you talked about getting a good breakfast ;)
2021-01-04T12:04:34Z beach: French breakfast is horrible compared to English breakfast.
2021-01-04T12:04:58Z heisig: French breakfast is a cup of coffee and a cigarette.
2021-01-04T12:05:06Z flip214: really? I haven't been to the UK for more than switching between planes, but there's this joke about Canada...
2021-01-04T12:05:34Z beach: heisig: A croissant if you have been good.
2021-01-04T12:05:51Z ralt: And a pain au chocolat
2021-01-04T12:05:59Z beach: That would be OR.
2021-01-04T12:06:18Z beach: Besides, they are called "chocolatines" where I live.
2021-01-04T12:06:21Z ralt: No. And. I'm hungry for breakfast.
2021-01-04T12:07:06Z ralt: I live in another part of France, those calling it "chocolatine" are considered heathens around here :p
2021-01-04T12:07:58Z heisig: And thus, the channel derailed...
2021-01-04T12:08:11Z beach will stop now.
2021-01-04T12:08:34Z flip214: heisig: food always makes a good /topic
2021-01-04T12:09:13Z beach: flip214: I see you are set on starting two off-topic discussion with short intervals.
2021-01-04T12:10:19Z flip214: beach: oh, sorry. I'll shut up.
2021-01-04T12:10:26Z phoe: food is on-topic in #lispcafe!
2021-01-04T12:13:09Z ralt: beach is not over here tho
2021-01-04T12:14:30Z phoe: well, he should join, I'm kinda curious about French breakfasts but I don't want to make #lisp participants hungry by discussing foodstuffs here
2021-01-04T12:14:33Z phoe: :D
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2021-01-04T12:26:03Z varjag: anyone knows if there's a way to broadcast udp in lispworks, other than via ffi?
2021-01-04T12:26:04Z beach: *sigh*
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2021-01-04T12:37:00Z phoe: varjag: maybe HUG will know better
2021-01-04T12:37:46Z flip214: https://www.twitch.tv/elsconf/videos?filter=all   says "ELSConf is offline" and there are no videos... are they somewhere else?
2021-01-04T12:38:40Z phoe: flip214: https://www.youtube.com/c/EuropeanLispSymposium/videos
2021-01-04T12:38:46Z phoe: twitch autodeletes videos after two weeks AFAIK
2021-01-04T12:38:52Z flip214: oh, okay. thanks!
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2021-01-04T12:39:45Z ralt: varjag: I think USOCKET allows you to use UDP sockets
2021-01-04T12:43:15Z frodef``: hi varjag
2021-01-04T12:44:26Z varjag: frodef``: hi, long time!
2021-01-04T12:44:38Z varjag: phoe: i asked there to no reply
2021-01-04T12:45:01Z varjag: ralt: udp broatcast doesn't work on lw via usocket
2021-01-04T12:45:36Z varjag: couldn't find anything in lw comm api either
2021-01-04T12:46:14Z varjag: oh well guess that means setsockopt via ffi or something
2021-01-04T12:46:54Z ralt: Maybe the implementation provided sockets rather than USOCKET will be helpful
2021-01-04T12:47:06Z ralt: E.g. I think sbcl provides setsockopt
2021-01-04T12:47:19Z varjag: that's the comm api yeah
2021-01-04T12:47:32Z varjag: com
2021-01-04T12:48:12Z varjag: but you're right it exposes setsockopt
2021-01-04T12:49:17Z ralt: At worst you have SOCKINT:: that is exposing pretty much everything via cffi
2021-01-04T12:49:59Z ralt: (an sbcl internal package)
2021-01-04T12:51:08Z ralt: I had to use it recently to do ancillary data with sockets, SOCKINT was already providing unexported symbols for msghdr structures
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2021-01-04T12:53:44Z varjag: right well, am using lispworks here so it's comm:
2021-01-04T12:54:09Z ralt: Ah, sorry, I've never used lispworks.
2021-01-04T12:54:48Z varjag: usocket's way of broadcast works fine on ccl and sbcl i think, so there's no need to fiddle
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2021-01-04T13:20:38Z SpaceIgor2075: Can I make executable fies with asdf?
2021-01-04T13:25:00Z SpaceIgor2075: * files
2021-01-04T13:25:15Z beach: There is a PROGRAM-OP in ASDF.
2021-01-04T13:25:25Z beach: But I suppose the Common Lisp implementation must allow it.
2021-01-04T13:25:48Z beach: It is explained in the ASDF manual.
2021-01-04T13:27:55Z SpaceIgor2075: Okay, thanks. Joining irc channels makes me forget that i can just rtfm indtead of asking basic questions :)
2021-01-04T13:29:21Z beach: Sure.
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2021-01-04T13:31:53Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: check out Shinmera's Deploy
2021-01-04T13:32:01Z phoe: it makes making binaries easy, easier
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2021-01-04T13:41:14Z ralt: SpaceIgor2075: if your target is linux, I (biasedly) recommend linux-packaging
2021-01-04T13:42:06Z ralt: https://gitlab.com/ralt/linux-packaging
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2021-01-04T13:43:41Z flip214: SpaceIgor2075: also, UIOP has a function for that
2021-01-04T13:44:41Z ralt: `sbcl --eval '(asdf:make :foo)'` is what you're supposed to use
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2021-01-04T14:21:37Z dim: now I am wondering if this linux-packaging tool could be used with pgloader...
2021-01-04T14:22:14Z SpaceIgor2075: It seems my project name was so complicated i typed it with typos and asdf didn'r work. Tip for the future: don't use project names that are too complex
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2021-01-04T14:25:16Z shinohai: Interesting thread this morning, I've been looking into methods for producing binaries. linux-packaging tool looks neat but I just can't overcome my distaste for Docker to make it useful in my case.
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2021-01-04T14:25:47Z dim: docker is quite nice for dev/test environments really
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2021-01-04T14:26:13Z dim: for managing an easy to reproduce env to produce binaries, it looks pretty well suited for the task
2021-01-04T14:28:47Z shinohai: Producing actual *fully static* binary that will run irregardless of system still pipe dream I suppose.
2021-01-04T14:29:53Z frodef``: shinohai: what's the issue with Docker?
2021-01-04T14:31:04Z shinohai: frodef``: nothing I guess if that is one's bag.
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2021-01-04T14:50:43Z SpaceIgor2075: Should i use :depends-on (#:CL) in my asdf:defsystem?
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2021-01-04T14:51:27Z SpaceIgor2075: SBCL says ; Evaluation aborted on Component #:CL not found, required by #<SYSTEM
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2021-01-04T14:51:46Z Bike: What would that indicate?
2021-01-04T14:51:59Z Bike: You're already writing your code in common lisp, right?
2021-01-04T14:52:48Z SpaceIgor2075: yes
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2021-01-04T14:53:58Z SpaceIgor2075: Removed it and, finally, after 12 hours of tinkering, asdf:load-system works
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2021-01-04T15:00:25Z SpaceIgor2075: Now I want to build an app
2021-01-04T15:00:53Z ggoes_ is now known as ggoes
2021-01-04T15:09:02Z ralt: shinohai: as I was saying in #sicl a few hours ago, I think sbcl recently got some fixes to work with musl, so static binaries might be possible now. Haven't played with it yet.
2021-01-04T15:10:29Z ralt: that said, you can already do some pretty cool stuff like statically linking sqlite https://gitlab.com/ralt/ballish/-/blob/master/ballish.asd#L12
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2021-01-04T15:12:11Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: there is no CL system
2021-01-04T15:12:12Z shinohai: ralt: oh neat, didn't know sbcl got some musl fixes, ~year ago I managed to get 1.5.7 patched together to work on musl system, still using it.
2021-01-04T15:12:18Z phoe: there is only a CL package
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2021-01-04T15:22:08Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: should i mention it anywhere?
2021-01-04T15:23:08Z phoe: yes, in your DEFPACKAGEs
2021-01-04T15:23:21Z phoe: unless you want to explicitly qualify all CL symbols, which would be... weird
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2021-01-04T15:31:41Z SpaceIgor2075: Is there a builtin way to make executables in clisp, like sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die in sbcl?
2021-01-04T15:33:52Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/blob/master/uiop/image.lisp#L364-373
2021-01-04T15:33:56Z phoe: that's what ASDF tells me
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2021-01-04T15:35:07Z phoe: possibly you don't want this low-level functionality though
2021-01-04T15:35:18Z phoe: why not just asdf:make? I think it was suggested above
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2021-01-04T15:37:07Z ralt: actually, here is the recommendation: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/master/doc/best_practices.md#delivering-an-executable
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2021-01-04T15:55:00Z SpaceIgor2075: Will (defsystem "foobar/executable"
2021-01-04T15:55:00Z SpaceIgor2075:   :build-operation program-op
2021-01-04T15:55:00Z SpaceIgor2075:   :build-pathname "foobar-command" ;; shell name
2021-01-04T15:55:00Z SpaceIgor2075:   :entry-point "foobar::start-foobar" ;; thunk
2021-01-04T15:55:03Z SpaceIgor2075:   :depends-on ("foobar")
2021-01-04T15:55:06Z SpaceIgor2075:   :components ((:file "main"))) inherit components and dependencies of foobar?
2021-01-04T15:55:36Z phoe: please use pastebin for larger code blocks
2021-01-04T15:55:53Z phoe: also, what do you mean, components and depenencies? this will require foobar to be loaded before this is system is loaded
2021-01-04T15:56:09Z phoe: and loading foobar requires its dependencies to be loaded, and then its components to be compiled and loaded, too
2021-01-04T15:56:28Z phoe: so I guess, yes... but I wonder why you need a separate system for building executables
2021-01-04T15:56:53Z phoe: I guess that build-operation, built-pathname, entry-point can all be specified in foobar itself, unless you have other issues
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2021-01-04T16:06:13Z SpaceIgor2075: It works. I'm so happy. Are there newbie guides on doing stuff with a lisp program while it runs in slime?
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2021-01-04T16:06:38Z SpaceIgor2075: I've heard a lot about this "interactive development" thing
2021-01-04T16:07:00Z Xach: SpaceIgor2075: i find it helps to think of the lisp program as a thing to which you connect, and which you extend incrementally with new functions, types, data, etc.
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2021-01-04T16:07:58Z Xach: it's not something you design, start, it runs and completes, and you think about what you want different for the next time.
2021-01-04T16:08:32Z Xach: start, design, add pieces, run pieces, design, add more pieces, run more pieces, design, etc
2021-01-04T16:09:23Z SpaceIgor2075: i understand, i just want to see some explanations and examples
2021-01-04T16:10:07Z Xach: Hmm, I'm not sure what might be available, sorry. I think the SLIME video might have some examples (it's pretty old but the concepts are not outdated)
2021-01-04T16:10:21Z phoe: Baggers' Little Bits of Lisp
2021-01-04T16:10:24Z Xach: I think Rainer Joswig has some videos using LispWorks
2021-01-04T16:10:27Z Xach: That's a good option too!
2021-01-04T16:12:54Z tyson2: I am using the free book Practical Common Lisp, which uses sbcl and slime by default, seems to work well.  Just set up Slime a couple of weeks ago.
2021-01-04T16:13:09Z tyson2: (although I did it a few years ago and gave up).
2021-01-04T16:14:44Z SpaceIgor2075: I'm talking about this thing: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/#s16-lisp-as-a-system
2021-01-04T16:15:18Z phoe: edit a code snippet and hit C-c C-c in a lisp buffer
2021-01-04T16:15:26Z phoe: bam, it's evaluated in the Lisp image
2021-01-04T16:15:34Z Xach: you have taught lisp a thing
2021-01-04T16:15:41Z phoe: it might have defined or redefined a function/variable/macro/class/whatever
2021-01-04T16:15:55Z phoe: rinse, repeat a few thousand times, and you'll have a working decently-sized program
2021-01-04T16:18:49Z SpaceIgor2075: Xach, phoe: Thanks! Now, finally, after a week of messing with emacs, slime, sbcl and cl i can start trying to make my tiny game
2021-01-04T16:20:01Z phoe: I hope you are aware about #lispgames
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2021-01-04T16:21:58Z SpaceIgor2075: phoe: Oh, i should join it!
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2021-01-04T16:25:32Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Eclector/tree/documentation-listings and https://github.com/sharplispers/linedit/tree/syntax-highlighting should be enough to try the syntax highlighting stuff
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2021-01-04T16:26:07Z scymtym: fiddlerwoaroof: i didn't manage to clean up as much as i wanted so all of this is subject to change
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2021-01-04T18:53:56Z Xach: SpaceIgor2075: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25627491 has some nice links
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2021-01-04T18:55:31Z phoe: SpaceIgor2075: I do some livecoding in a video that comes live tomorrow at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkqQq2Hwt5o
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2021-01-04T18:59:40Z VincentVega: is there some placeholder symbol which wouldn't give the unused warnings in functions? is "-" ok?
2021-01-04T18:59:45Z phoe: no
2021-01-04T18:59:55Z phoe: you need to explicitly ignore unused variables
2021-01-04T19:00:08Z Xach: the only exception is in LOOP destructuring.
2021-01-04T19:00:16Z phoe: and using - as a variable name will not do what you might expect
2021-01-04T19:00:27Z VincentVega: hmm alright
2021-01-04T19:00:36Z Xach: (and maybe method lambda lists - specializing on t...)
2021-01-04T19:00:42Z flip214: VincentVega: that's on my wish list as well
2021-01-04T19:01:29Z VincentVega: ok I see : ) will be using, i don't know, underscores then? or *?
2021-01-04T19:02:03Z VincentVega: guess it won't matter much
2021-01-04T19:02:27Z phoe: don't use *
2021-01-04T19:02:32Z phoe: it also won't do what you think
2021-01-04T19:02:44Z VincentVega: what does it do?
2021-01-04T19:02:47Z phoe: if anything, give the meaningful names and then ignore them
2021-01-04T19:02:52Z phoe: * is a REPL variable, just like -
2021-01-04T19:02:56Z VincentVega: oh
2021-01-04T19:03:02Z VincentVega: ok then
2021-01-04T19:03:11Z phoe: it's a dynamic variable, meaning that if you name a function argument with that symbol, it'll audorebind it
2021-01-04T19:03:20Z VincentVega: gotcha
2021-01-04T19:03:22Z phoe: autorebind*
2021-01-04T19:03:31Z VincentVega: thanks for the heads up : )
2021-01-04T19:03:37Z phoe: also, meaningful variable names are good for completions
2021-01-04T19:03:52Z VincentVega: makes sense
2021-01-04T19:03:53Z phoe: e.g. when you see the lambda list of a function in slime minibuffer
2021-01-04T19:04:10Z phoe: so, (defun frobnicate (foo bar baz) (declare (ignore foo baz)) ...) is what I consider the best
2021-01-04T19:04:23Z phoe: because then argument names are available for introspection
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2021-01-04T19:05:00Z VincentVega: I see. Thanks, phoe!
2021-01-04T19:05:59Z phoe: and when you decide to actually use the arguments in your function body, you need to modify only the ignore declarations.
2021-01-04T19:07:01Z VincentVega: ok, yeah
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2021-01-04T20:18:33Z aeth: VincentVega: You can write a macro which replaces each _ with a new gensym, saves those gensyms into a list, and then adds an implicit (declare (ignore ,@gensym-list)) at the start.
2021-01-04T20:19:17Z aeth: I'm not sure if it would be useful enough to be worth the (minimal) effort, though.
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2021-01-04T20:20:18Z aeth: It might be useful for certain advanced macros that might do actions on otherwise-ignored things, where it could instead do (declare (ignorable ,@gensym-list)) instead.
2021-01-04T20:20:55Z aeth: (i.e. it's not used in the user code, and it may or may not trigger the macro processing that uses it in the macro's code)
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2021-01-04T20:30:00Z VincentVega: aeth: I see what you mean. I don't have macro code needing that yet, but i will keep this possibilityin mind!
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2021-01-04T20:41:22Z phoe: okay, tomorrow at 18:00 CET is the official premiere of this Common Lisp video. https://www.47deg.com/academy/2021-01-05-immutable-conversations-common-lisp/
2021-01-04T20:41:30Z phoe: I'll be on YT chat and answer some questions there
2021-01-04T20:41:49Z phoe: and then possibly invite some people to #lispcafe if they have more questions.
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2021-01-04T21:03:00Z ralt: Just putting this here, sorry if it's a bit spammy, but I think it's relevant. https://twitter.com/Crell/status/1346198039409647616
2021-01-04T21:03:14Z ralt: Disclaimer: I work there.
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2021-01-04T21:03:40Z phoe: hm
2021-01-04T21:03:50Z phoe: maybe you could try and pitch that to #common-lisp.net
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2021-01-04T21:04:05Z phoe: I think they could be interested, I don't know how much hosting they have
2021-01-04T21:04:43Z ralt: I don't want to be more spammy than necessary, that's a fyi, if the people lurk around in #lisp they'll see it
2021-01-04T21:04:53Z phoe: gendl: easye: ^
2021-01-04T21:04:55Z phoe: okie then
2021-01-04T21:05:11Z ralt: thanks
2021-01-04T21:06:00Z phoe: thanks as well
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2021-01-04T22:10:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: scymtym: thanks
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2021-01-04T22:12:27Z ralt: exciting https://pastebin.com/43kuYPRk
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2021-01-04T22:24:09Z phoe: ralt: !!
2021-01-04T22:24:15Z phoe: you managed to link SBCL against musl?
2021-01-04T22:24:48Z ralt: I believe I did
2021-01-04T22:24:57Z phoe: does the test suite pass?
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2021-01-04T22:25:50Z ralt: haven't tried it yet
2021-01-04T22:26:53Z ralt: do they take a long time to run?
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2021-01-04T22:27:02Z phoe: not really?
2021-01-04T22:27:20Z phoe: some of them run while SBCL is getting built
2021-01-04T22:27:23Z ralt: hm, can't compile osicat
2021-01-04T22:27:46Z ralt: getting this issue https://github.com/osicat/osicat/issues/19
2021-01-04T22:27:59Z ralt: sbcl tests are running
2021-01-04T22:28:29Z ralt: so far it's not crashing
2021-01-04T22:31:12Z phoe: it'll produce a report at the end
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2021-01-04T22:37:08Z ralt: tests are still running, found this error when trying to boot sly in the meantime https://pastebin.com/0Nzw92yB
2021-01-04T22:37:09Z ralt: not cool
2021-01-04T22:39:18Z phoe: upgrade sly
2021-01-04T22:39:32Z phoe: %code-entry-points was removed from recent SBCL
2021-01-04T22:39:37Z ralt: oh.
2021-01-04T22:39:39Z phoe: and that broke several systems that depended on it
2021-01-04T22:39:44Z phoe: despite it being an internal symbol
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2021-01-04T22:39:57Z ralt: cool, it's not musl then
2021-01-04T22:40:43Z ralt: well, to be fair, it was an exported symbol
2021-01-04T22:40:59Z phoe: but with a %
2021-01-04T22:41:01Z ralt: but I guess lisp doesn't really have the concept of "exported for a subset of other packages"
2021-01-04T22:41:22Z ralt: like "exported within this system" or something
2021-01-04T22:41:29Z phoe: nope, not really
2021-01-04T22:41:41Z ralt: that would be something I'd use quite often, given that I use package-inferred systems
2021-01-04T22:41:42Z phoe: but still, % is one of ways of saying "don't use this because things may break"
2021-01-04T22:41:51Z ralt: yeah, that's fair
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2021-01-04T22:46:11Z Krystof: it was an exported symbol from a package documented as "private"
2021-01-04T22:47:12Z ralt: it appears to be not too bad https://pastebin.com/Yvt1Kxtv
2021-01-04T22:47:31Z ralt: the 2 failures are because `dlsym()` is missing, I believe
2021-01-04T22:48:00Z Krystof: cool, that's a very good failure report.
2021-01-04T22:48:34Z ralt: what's dlsym() used for? CFFI?
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2021-01-04T22:52:00Z phoe: musl does seem to have dlsym() though...
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2021-01-04T22:58:17Z Krystof: ralt: foreign calls
2021-01-04T22:58:36Z Krystof: wait, I'm sure you are passing many calls requiring dlsym
2021-01-04T22:59:02Z Krystof: the two tests that fail are things that might invoke compilers or linkers -- maybe they need adjusting for musl somehow?
2021-01-04T22:59:14Z Krystof: (must go to bed, sorry.  Good luck!)
2021-01-04T22:59:42Z ralt: https://pastebin.com/Kih6MMwK
2021-01-04T23:02:27Z ralt: no worries, good night
2021-01-04T23:10:45Z fe[nl]ix: ralt: it seems that the feature test tools-for-build/os-provides-dlopen-test.c fails somehow
2021-01-04T23:10:58Z fe[nl]ix: try compiling and running that under musl
2021-01-04T23:11:44Z ralt: fe[nl]ix: exits with code 104
2021-01-04T23:12:05Z ralt: it does compile, though
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2021-01-04T23:16:02Z ralt: dlerror() returns null...
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2021-01-04T23:16:55Z ralt: I don't understand how it's supposed to run
2021-01-04T23:17:13Z ralt: it returns exit code 104 if... dlsym() returns a good pointer?
2021-01-04T23:21:49Z ralt: anyway, for another day.
2021-01-04T23:22:26Z etimmons: ralt: I helped get the musl support merged back in 2.0.5. and have been using it successfully since
2021-01-04T23:23:13Z ralt: etimmons: thanks a lot!
2021-01-04T23:23:22Z etimmons: But I haven't run the full test suite on musl in a while (currently doing that). Wouldn't surprise me if it's a bug in the test
2021-01-04T23:23:48Z ralt: I'm playing with it to generate a static binary, a bit unsuccessfully so far, but linkers are finicky beasts :)
2021-01-04T23:24:11Z etimmons: Coincidentally I also have a set of patches to make static executables with musl. I sent some early versions to sbcl-devel a while back, but they didn't get traction
2021-01-04T23:24:42Z ralt: do you need a static sbcl to build a static dumped image?
2021-01-04T23:25:01Z ralt: either way, I'm very interested, could you point me to those?
2021-01-04T23:25:01Z etimmons: I was literally in the middle of doing a little writeup on how to actually make a static executable when I paged over here and saw the discussion
2021-01-04T23:25:08Z ralt: ha
2021-01-04T23:25:17Z ralt: amazing :)
2021-01-04T23:25:22Z etimmons: Will drop a pointer in here when it's up.
2021-01-04T23:26:55Z etimmons: There are really two ways to do it. There's supposedly a way to do it with the static shrinkwrapping recipe in the SBCL repo, but that does some low level assembly stuff and currently only works on amd64.
2021-01-04T23:27:50Z etimmons: I have also yet to get a good explanation from Doug Katzman on how to get rid of the requirement on libdl with that route (but it seems he/Google has a way)
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2021-01-04T23:29:07Z etimmons: The second route is with my patches. They should work on any arch, but require two compilations of your code: one with a dynamic SBCL to record the needed foreign symbols, and then one with a static SBCL to dump the final executable
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2021-01-04T23:31:13Z ralt: etimmons: can't you use the /usr/lib/sbcl.o file for the foreign symbols?
2021-01-04T23:31:26Z ralt: I meant /usr/lib/sbcl/sbcl.o, sorry
2021-01-04T23:31:49Z ralt: or is that the shrinkwrapping recipe?
2021-01-04T23:32:29Z ralt: are you aware of the --with-linkable-runtime option, and the generated sbcl.mk?
2021-01-04T23:33:47Z etimmons: Yes, I'm aware of that. I had some nasty recipes in the past that used that as a starting point.
2021-01-04T23:34:53Z etimmons: The issue is SBCL's linkage table. It records all the C addresses of the foreign symbols and uses dlopen/dlsym at runtime to populate it.
2021-01-04T23:35:17Z phoe: https://twitter.com/peterseibel/status/1346226308506796034
2021-01-04T23:35:21Z phoe: that's an important tweet
2021-01-04T23:35:34Z etimmons: I'm sure you could get the symbols needed for SBCL's runtime from sbcl.o, but that won't tell you what user code needs (if it uses CFFI)
2021-01-04T23:37:09Z ralt: Ok, I'll wait for your write-up then
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2021-01-04T23:38:03Z etimmons: The shrinkwrapping recipe rewrites a core so that the system's dynamic linker populates the linkage table for SBCL at runtime. My set of patches instead generates a C file that needs to be compiled into the core. That's how I get away with doing this knowing ~zero assembly
2021-01-04T23:38:21Z etimmons: s/into the core/into the runtime/
2021-01-04T23:39:57Z ralt: phoe: what's "multi images"? https://mobile.twitter.com/peterseibel/status/1346226308506796034
2021-01-04T23:40:50Z no-defun-allowed: "multi image" would be running programs on multiple computers.
2021-01-04T23:41:22Z ralt: Sorry, I meant https://mobile.twitter.com/tapoueh/status/1346231966744649733
2021-01-04T23:41:51Z phoe: likely what no-defun-allowed meant: swank-crew, lfarm?
2021-01-04T23:42:02Z ralt: no-defun-allowed: is there some existing stuff for this besides netfarm?
2021-01-04T23:42:22Z no-defun-allowed: As phoe already said.
2021-01-04T23:42:27Z etimmons: ralt: shameless self plug; if you're into Docker I maintain a set of Docker images for SBCL, including Alpine based ones. They used to be at daewok/sbcl, but I'm working with the CLF to move them to a more community owned space for longevity.
2021-01-04T23:42:36Z etimmons: Beta is up at clfoundation/sbcl
2021-01-04T23:42:52Z no-defun-allowed: Netfarm is for mostly-untrusted replicated object storage, and you do not want to use it for distributed computation. You want something more like lfarm for computing.
2021-01-04T23:43:07Z ralt: etimmons: you're daewok? I've used your images before :)
2021-01-04T23:43:21Z etimmons: indeed!
2021-01-04T23:43:40Z no-defun-allowed: Hey, same, the GitLab CI stuff aeth and I use uses daewok/lisp or something like that.
2021-01-04T23:43:51Z scymtym: phoe: interesting news indeed. i don't have a working twitter account, but i would suggest hyperlinking and syntax highlighting as in this example: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/pcl-highlighting-example/12-they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html
2021-01-04T23:43:59Z ralt: etimmons: you might be interested in https://gitlab.com/ralt/linux-packaging
2021-01-04T23:45:02Z phoe: scymtym: message passed
2021-01-04T23:45:02Z ralt: no-defun-allowed: I want a cloud-hosted mainframe in Lisp
2021-01-04T23:45:36Z scymtym: phoe: thanks
2021-01-04T23:46:14Z etimmons: ralt: Nice, I'll take a look at that after dinner
2021-01-04T23:46:25Z no-defun-allowed: ralt: I seriously don't give a fuck, and I hope you don't act on that desire.
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2021-01-04T23:47:30Z no-defun-allowed: Please ignore the former half of that, I did not mean to say that.
2021-01-04T23:47:31Z ralt: etimmons: anyway, I'm going away now, please look at your PMs, I sent you my email because I'll disconnect from irc, I really want static binaries :P
2021-01-04T23:47:45Z no-defun-allowed: But we don't need more centralisation in this world.
2021-01-04T23:48:07Z no-defun-allowed: I suppose I'll head out, before I say something else that's stupid.
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2021-01-04T23:48:16Z ralt: no-defun-allowed: by mainframe, I mean a "lisp process" that never dies, no matter what the underlying hardware does
2021-01-04T23:48:19Z ralt: Welp.
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2021-01-05T01:21:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: ralt: that sort of distributed system would be pretty useful
2021-01-05T01:23:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: ralt: I managed to get sbcl to generate static binaries
2021-01-05T01:24:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: If amd64/linux is good enough for you, it's not all that hard
2021-01-05T01:24:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: You have to build sbcl like this: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/sbcl-workspace/blob/master/setup/build
2021-01-05T01:25:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then this will do the rest: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/daydreamer/blob/master/build.lisp
2021-01-05T01:26:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: The only problem is that certain libraries insist on causing problems here: I go out of my way to avoid depending on osicat because of this
2021-01-05T01:26:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, patch it something like this: https://gitlab.com/fiddlerwoaroof/osicat/-/commit/b56f924c5dafa92e6da1f2a91a6b7f133cbd69fa
2021-01-05T01:28:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: This also needs this patch to CFFI: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/pull/136
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2021-01-05T03:42:26Z charles`: Does anyone else get a compile error on sbcl for defconstant after a image restart
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2021-01-05T03:54:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: charles`: what does the error say?
2021-01-05T03:54:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: It sounds like a defconstant is being evaluated/compiled twice with values that aren't EQL
2021-01-05T03:56:15Z charles`: Yes it says constant NAME is being redefined from  "string" to "string". I know it happens when I try to reevaluate the defconstant, but It sometimes happens after I restart the image
2021-01-05T03:59:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: It sounds like your startup sequence is evaluating a defconstant twice, but you aren't really providing enough context
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2021-01-05T04:05:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-05T04:06:49Z charles`: It is strange because it only happens sometimes
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2021-01-05T04:10:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach!
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2021-01-05T07:30:55Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: are you sure this ends up building a static binary?
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2021-01-05T07:52:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's the point of ASDF's static-program-op
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2021-01-05T07:52:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sorry, CFFI's
2021-01-05T07:55:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I guess it's not completely statically linked
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2021-01-05T08:08:39Z ralt: fiddlerwoaroof: right. See linux-packaging for something that uses static-program-op, with osicat that is statically linked as well.
2021-01-05T08:09:00Z ralt: What I'm playing with is linking sbcl to musl in order to get a full static binary.
2021-01-05T08:09:46Z ralt: But etimmons is basically 3 steps ahead of me.
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2021-01-05T08:52:41Z flip214: drmeister: at the end of https://drmeister.wordpress.com/2014/10/08/debugging-with-the-clasp-debugger/ you talk about generating dwarf data, but I can't find a follow-up post.
2021-01-05T08:53:44Z flip214: I'd like to generate dwarf output for function start/end addresses in SBCL, so that perf can report the stack correctly
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2021-01-05T10:42:20Z ralt: etimmons: I managed to build a static binary with musl but yeah, I'm back to the issue with the foreign symbols that your patch should help with.
2021-01-05T10:42:47Z ralt: one annoying thing is that sbcl recently stopped building the sbcl.o file with the _main symbol, though, so I had to build it manually.
2021-01-05T10:43:24Z ralt: otherwise I can get asdf:static-program-op to do most of the job for me.
2021-01-05T10:43:51Z ralt: (build it manually = cd src/runtime && make sbcl.o)
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2021-01-05T13:18:54Z pve: I've been trying out ccl over the past couple of days and have to say it's really nice how my code just works even though the compiler got switched out.
2021-01-05T13:22:01Z phoe: that's the power of compliance™
2021-01-05T13:22:07Z phoe: (and portability libraries)
2021-01-05T13:22:48Z pve: I mean I had my goat and rain dance drums ready to go
2021-01-05T13:25:55Z Xach: I always feel a little bad when an implementation's list of compliance variations covers basic, specified functionality rather than extensions.
2021-01-05T13:26:07Z Xach: like CLISP's REQUIRE malarkey
2021-01-05T13:26:42Z Xach: (I feel less bad when it's an acknowledged, possibly low-priority bug rather than intentional "we know better" issue)
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2021-01-05T13:28:08Z pve: ccl's compile speed is also refreshingly snappy, which makes my ancient workstation happy
2021-01-05T13:29:31Z phoe: ccl has a very fast compiler compared to SBCL's
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2021-01-05T13:29:44Z mfiano: Usually attributed to not as many optimizations
2021-01-05T13:30:53Z mfiano: Though, SBCL fails at are transitive move instructions that their
2021-01-05T13:30:57Z mfiano: oops
2021-01-05T13:31:18Z mfiano: SBCl fails at removing some transitive move operations due to their SSA optimizations not being that great
2021-01-05T13:33:57Z shka_: phoe: both sbcl and ccl compile at warp speed given my low standards
2021-01-05T13:34:08Z shka_: C++, not even once
2021-01-05T13:35:01Z shka_: the only CL implementation that compiles slowly is ECL, but the plot twist is that it is not even ECL that is being slow
2021-01-05T13:35:04Z shka_: it is the GCC
2021-01-05T13:35:12Z mfiano: Been writing some LLVM and never realized how much better it optimizes simple stuff than SBCL
2021-01-05T13:35:27Z shka_: and as a result, this can't be even fixed
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2021-01-05T13:35:44Z shka_: mfiano: it really is!
2021-01-05T13:35:49Z shka_: but, at the same time
2021-01-05T13:36:03Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/9c265bbe40042f763dfc9de0fcdb89fe
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2021-01-05T13:36:21Z mfiano: See B2, BE, etc? Those are transitive move instructions that SBCL fails to remove properly
2021-01-05T13:36:32Z shka_: current CPUs can execute crappy code rather quickly
2021-01-05T13:37:09Z shka_: so the practical difference between good compiler and not so good compiler is closer then you would think
2021-01-05T13:37:23Z shka_: it is there though
2021-01-05T13:37:45Z mfiano: Rather quickly, adn quickly make a large difference in my domain :)
2021-01-05T13:37:58Z shka_: same
2021-01-05T13:38:06Z shka_: but what can I do?
2021-01-05T13:38:26Z jackdaniel: ecl's bytecodes compiler is lightning fast :) the generated bytecode not so much (it is a single-pass compiler)
2021-01-05T13:38:52Z shka_: jackdaniel: yeah, nothing ECL can really do better
2021-01-05T13:39:23Z shka_: maybe faster interpreter? but i have no idea how to even do that
2021-01-05T13:39:35Z jackdaniel: well, that's not true -- there are some things that could improve ecl compilation speed
2021-01-05T13:39:43Z shka_: ooooh
2021-01-05T13:39:46Z shka_: ok :-)
2021-01-05T13:39:58Z jackdaniel: interpreter is reasonably fast, it is that the compiled bytecode is not optimized
2021-01-05T13:40:08Z shka_: ok, got it
2021-01-05T13:40:28Z shka_: what about the compilation speed?
2021-01-05T13:40:34Z jackdaniel: one way for improving the compilation speed would be using libgcc instead of going through files (but that would be very much compiler-specific)
2021-01-05T13:40:38Z shka_: is that a low hanging fruit or is it complicated?
2021-01-05T13:40:48Z shka_: ok, got it
2021-01-05T13:40:49Z jackdaniel: it is not a low hanging fruit
2021-01-05T13:41:52Z shka_: mfiano: i honestly suspect that clasp can eventually become a really quick lisp implementation
2021-01-05T13:42:28Z Bike: right now our compiler is much slower than sbcl's, tho.
2021-01-05T13:42:43Z phoe: shka_: faster in compilation speed or faster as in performance of generated code
2021-01-05T13:42:44Z mfiano: In time. Good compilers require development effort and lots of funding
2021-01-05T13:42:52Z Bike: llvm does not have compilation speed as a priority, because as you said, C++
2021-01-05T13:42:53Z mfiano: Sadly we are limited in bioth of those regards
2021-01-05T13:42:57Z shka_: phoe: performance of generated code
2021-01-05T13:43:55Z shka_: Bike: well, I am actually atypically tolerant for a long compilations
2021-01-05T13:44:40Z shka_: my first serious project took 1 hour to compile
2021-01-05T13:45:05Z shka_: workflow was like: start compiling, go for a jog
2021-01-05T13:45:22Z shka_: i was lean back then :P
2021-01-05T13:45:35Z mfiano: https://xkcd.com/303/
2021-01-05T13:46:20Z shka_: Bike: anyway, you can still single function compile?
2021-01-05T13:46:31Z Bike: what? like use cl:compile? sure
2021-01-05T13:46:39Z shka_: then i am fine
2021-01-05T13:46:44Z shka_: :-)
2021-01-05T13:46:57Z Bike: clasp is a Conforming Implementation(TM)
2021-01-05T13:47:07Z Bike: (mostly. there are some ansi test failures)
2021-01-05T13:47:27Z shka_: what about the current execution speeds?
2021-01-05T13:47:58Z Bike: we're working on it. karlosz and i have rewritten big chunks of cleavir and will be starting in on sbcl-type optimizations soon
2021-01-05T13:48:39Z shka_: super cool
2021-01-05T13:49:03Z shka_: well, good luck!
2021-01-05T13:49:24Z Bike: thank you
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2021-01-05T14:25:54Z ldbeth: good evening
2021-01-05T14:26:11Z beach: Hello ldbeth.
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2021-01-05T15:19:42Z jmercouris: does this indentation look OK? http://dpaste.com/55H474NJ5
2021-01-05T15:19:48Z jmercouris: or should I move something up/down?
2021-01-05T15:20:04Z jmercouris: I'm never quite sure how to indent with-slots
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2021-01-05T15:21:25Z beach: You should usually go for the indentation that Emacs+SLIME suggest.  But their suggestions are not always great.
2021-01-05T15:22:17Z beach: In this case, there is no reason to indent lines 2-5 by 2 positions compared to "gobject".
2021-01-05T15:22:38Z phoe: (incf beach)
2021-01-05T15:23:04Z beach: And you may be able to save space by moving the beginning of the list to the next line.
2021-01-05T15:23:20Z jmercouris: hm it looks different on my screen
2021-01-05T15:23:30Z jmercouris: on my screen the g in gobject and the m in minibuffer are aligned
2021-01-05T15:23:43Z jmercouris: but this is in fact what Emacs+SLIME has done
2021-01-05T15:23:54Z beach: On your screen when you view the URL?
2021-01-05T15:24:03Z jmercouris: viewing the URL looks how you describe
2021-01-05T15:24:08Z jmercouris: viewing in my buffer looks how I describe
2021-01-05T15:24:09Z beach: Maybe you are using TABs?
2021-01-05T15:24:12Z beach: Don't do that.
2021-01-05T15:24:16Z beach: I see.
2021-01-05T15:24:19Z jmercouris: I have tabs disabled...
2021-01-05T15:24:23Z jmercouris: or at least they are supposed to be...
2021-01-05T15:24:49Z travv0: is that top line led by 2 spaces in your buffer?
2021-01-05T15:25:35Z jmercouris: travv0: not sure what 'led' means in this context
2021-01-05T15:25:37Z beach: jmercouris: Not related to your indentation, but if you have a list of that many slots, I think you have a design problem in your software.
2021-01-05T15:25:50Z beach: jmercouris: Past tense of lead.
2021-01-05T15:25:54Z jmercouris: beach: it is within intialize-instance where I am creating all of the objects
2021-01-05T15:26:01Z jmercouris: that are referenced in the slots
2021-01-05T15:26:04Z travv0: jmercouris: i just meant, are there two spaces at the beginning of the line before the opening paren
2021-01-05T15:26:14Z jmercouris: travv0: yes, there are
2021-01-05T15:26:32Z travv0: there's the difference then, those got lost in the copy/paste but there are 2 extra spaces on the rest of the lines
2021-01-05T15:26:48Z jmercouris: aha...
2021-01-05T15:26:54Z travv0: mystery solved
2021-01-05T15:27:02Z beach: Good catch!
2021-01-05T15:27:10Z jmercouris: I've moved them to the subsequent line, looks better, thanks
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2021-01-05T15:30:41Z pfdietz: Now boring into test input generators.  check-it;  are there others?
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2021-01-05T15:37:37Z jmercouris: pfdietz: you mean like fuzzy testing input generators?
2021-01-05T15:42:14Z aeth: adding to what beach said, the auto-indent of Emacs+SLIME only really breaks in a few places ime
2021-01-05T15:43:12Z aeth: 1. advanced LOOP stuff (even with the added setting to make it indent loop properly), particularly with nested conditionals (usually, COND is better, but you do need to use LOOP's conditionals for optional COLLECT/etc. only on certain branches afaik)
2021-01-05T15:43:15Z mfiano: property testing
2021-01-05T15:43:15Z mfiano: pfdietz: cl-quickcheck is another
2021-01-05T15:43:36Z aeth: 2. custom macros (although I think you can extend it) that do certain things, particularly ones that try to behave like FLET (with its own, special indentation rules)
2021-01-05T15:43:59Z aeth: (usually just using &body instead of &rest or vice versa is good enough for the right indentation)
2021-01-05T15:44:10Z mfiano: Indentation breaks the most with SLIME/Sly's indentation "lossage"
2021-01-05T15:45:55Z shinohai: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/lisp/2021-01-05#28749487 <<< You're doing God's work here ralt :)
2021-01-05T15:46:11Z mfiano: Indentation codes are an extension of elisp's lisp-mode, and as such, indentation is only concerned with the operator's symbol-name, without package-name. As such, you may get the wrong indentation if you don't choose a macro name carefully for the state of your image.
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2021-01-05T15:46:30Z mfiano: On Sly, you can use (slynk:print-indentation-lossage) to check the ambiguities. I'm not sure if SLIME offers a way
2021-01-05T15:47:49Z jmercouris: mfiano: I see, thanks for the information
2021-01-05T15:48:48Z phoe: I need to write an article that describes https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/e6d215d77148079799d2fc3253ef402b5d9ed4d7/contrib/slime-cl-indent.el#L684-L755 better
2021-01-05T15:48:53Z phoe: like, with generous examples
2021-01-05T15:48:56Z aeth: mfiano: So what you're saying is that the lazy way to get FLET-style indentation for an FLET-style macro without having to extend Emacs would be to call it YOUR-PACKAGE:FLET instead of something else? (-:
2021-01-05T15:49:23Z ralt: shinohai: nah, etimmons is
2021-01-05T15:49:27Z pfdietz: jmercouris:  yes, and also (if possible) test input reducer.
2021-01-05T15:49:32Z mfiano: I don't think that was what I was saying at all.
2021-01-05T15:49:52Z pfdietz: Something like a CL implementation of Python's Hypothesis would be very interesting.
2021-01-05T15:50:03Z ralt: shinohai: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/lisp/2021-01-04#28747858;
2021-01-05T15:50:51Z shinohai: ty for link, was just poring over logs because that convo caught attention.
2021-01-05T15:51:04Z shinohai: Guess I need to search the ml, I find that very interesting.
2021-01-05T15:51:30Z jmercouris: pfdietz: isn't the SBCL team using some sort of fuzzer?
2021-01-05T15:51:36Z jmercouris: pfdietz: you may be able to ask them
2021-01-05T15:51:55Z pfdietz: I'll be sure to ask myself about that :)
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2021-01-05T15:52:15Z jmercouris: lol
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2021-01-05T15:58:17Z mfiano: pfdietz: I once tried. The difficulty arises in reducing a generation down to the bare minimum, so you aren't presented with a failing test that is difficult to figure out why it failed.
2021-01-05T15:58:23Z mfiano: I should pick that up again...
2021-01-05T15:59:11Z beach: So here is the latest (still very incomplete) version of the paper about call-site optimization that I am planning to submit to ELS.  http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf
2021-01-05T15:59:21Z beach: But, as usual, I did things in the reverse order compared to what most researchers would do, i.e., I came up with the technique before studying what already exists.  And in fact, I still have no real idea what has been done in this domain, and I had to be told about how inline caches work.
2021-01-05T15:59:22Z beach: So if anybody knows some relevant existing techniques I should read about, please let me know.
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2021-01-05T16:07:23Z contrapunctus: Would anyone like to recommend a protobuf library here? https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl/issues/372
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2021-01-05T16:19:32Z solideogloria[m] sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/ztSOnFcGjMiopdJoZlyJjwGm/message.txt >
2021-01-05T16:19:38Z solideogloria[m]: for some reason the prev-window function does not modify focus
2021-01-05T16:19:43Z solideogloria[m]: I can't figure out why
2021-01-05T16:19:56Z solideogloria[m]: it works when I don't use the function as you can see the commented code
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2021-01-05T16:34:35Z beach: solideogloria[m]: I am not sure what your problem is, but do you want remarks on that code?
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2021-01-05T16:35:18Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Oh, I think I see what you are asking.
2021-01-05T16:35:38Z beach: Setting focus inside prev-window will set the parameter of that function.
2021-01-05T16:35:53Z beach: solideogloria[m]: It works the same in almost all other programming languages.
2021-01-05T16:36:18Z beach: solideogloria[m]: But your code has other issues as well.
2021-01-05T16:36:56Z beach: To start with, you have a number of inexplicable blank lines.  It is unusual for Common Lisp code to have blank lines inside a function.
2021-01-05T16:37:54Z beach: Then, you have an IF without an `else' branch.  And since it is a form that is executed for side effect only, you should use WHEN instead.
2021-01-05T16:39:12Z phoe: solideogloria[m]: of course it modifies focus
2021-01-05T16:39:25Z phoe: your SETF calls modify the FOCUS local variable declared in line 1 of your paste
2021-01-05T16:39:47Z phoe: and likely nothing else
2021-01-05T16:39:50Z beach: Further, you are using EVENT as a Boolean in (WHEN EVENT....).  In the LUV slides (page 13) by Norvig and Pitman, they explain that WHEN should be used only with Booleans, so I would write (UNLESS (NULL EVENT)...) instead.
2021-01-05T16:40:04Z beach: phoe:  I think I just said that.
2021-01-05T16:40:12Z phoe: welp, yes
2021-01-05T16:40:14Z phoe hides
2021-01-05T16:40:55Z solideogloria[m]: The behaviour I expected was to modify the focus variable which events takes as an argument
2021-01-05T16:41:06Z phoe: you can't have that with a function
2021-01-05T16:41:15Z beach: solideogloria[m]: What programming language do you know that would work that way?
2021-01-05T16:41:33Z beach: Fortran I guess.
2021-01-05T16:41:48Z beach: And C++ if you have a & there.
2021-01-05T16:41:51Z solideogloria[m]: <beach "soli deo gloria: What programmin"> C ?
2021-01-05T16:42:07Z beach: solideogloria[m]: C doesn't work as you expected here.
2021-01-05T16:42:20Z phoe: either return a value that can then be set in EVENTS, or use a macro instead, or use a local variable that encompasses both of those functions
2021-01-05T16:42:36Z phoe: beach: it does, if you pass a pointer and do `*p = foo;`
2021-01-05T16:42:48Z solideogloria[m]: <beach "soli deo gloria: C doesn't work "> with pointers ofc
2021-01-05T16:42:59Z beach: phoe: But this code doesn't pass a pointer.
2021-01-05T16:43:04Z phoe: beach: yes
2021-01-05T16:43:09Z phoe: that's why it's not working :D
2021-01-05T16:43:39Z phoe: they could pass in a locative though, if they like this programming style
2021-01-05T16:43:58Z phoe: pass in a (lambda (x) (setf focus x)) with the FOCUS from EVENTS
2021-01-05T16:44:04Z phoe: and then funcall it with the value they want
2021-01-05T16:44:44Z solideogloria[m]: I could just write the setf in the event case at that point
2021-01-05T16:44:45Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Furthermore, (= focus 0) can be expressed as (zerop focus) which is more specific.  And there is a general rule in programming that you should use the most specific construct that will do the job.
2021-01-05T16:45:05Z solideogloria[m]: <beach "soli deo gloria: Furthermore, (="> oh yeah, almost forgot about that
2021-01-05T16:45:24Z phoe: solideogloria[m]: yes, that would be even better
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2021-01-05T16:45:47Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Moreover, IF is a form in Common Lisp, so you can write (setf focus (if (zerop focus) (1- (length wins)) (1- focus)))
2021-01-05T16:46:24Z solideogloria[m]: that makes more sense
2021-01-05T16:46:34Z solideogloria[m]: didn't even think about that
2021-01-05T16:47:16Z beach: So, anyway, Common Lisp uses call-by-value just like most other programming languages.
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2021-01-05T16:47:53Z beach: The arguments to a function are forms, and they are evaluated.  Then a copy of the value is given to the function as an argument, either in a register or on the stack.
2021-01-05T16:50:07Z beach: The main difference compared to C is that values in Common Lisp are references.  So if you send a mutable object to a function, then mutating that object inside the function will have visible effects to the caller.
2021-01-05T16:51:02Z beach: But in this case, you are passing a number, and numbers are immutable, and the operation you are doing is not mutating the object anyway, just assigning to the parameter as we explained.
2021-01-05T16:56:17Z phoe: okay, starting the stream at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkqQq2Hwt5o in four minutes.
2021-01-05T16:56:23Z phoe prepares
2021-01-05T16:57:37Z beach: But, we already saw it!  What are you preparing?
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2021-01-05T17:00:03Z phoe: for the live chat with non-lisp people
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2021-01-05T17:00:35Z beach: Oh!  Nice!
2021-01-05T17:00:52Z aeth: From a C programmer perspective, CL is like a language where everything is &foo, except some of those are immutable (like e.g. numbers) and thus can probably be optimized by the compiler.
2021-01-05T17:00:53Z jackdaniel: does reading old books qualify as a "dead chat"?
2021-01-05T17:01:38Z phoe: jackdaniel: right, "synchronous" is a better word
2021-01-05T17:01:54Z beach: aeth: That is not true, and I think I just said the opposite.
2021-01-05T17:02:20Z aeth: C and C++ really have this strange sort of situation where they make you try to guess whether you should have some data structure be copied or not, which can get really fuzzy when it's at some sweet spot in size... so you can accidentally write slow code.
2021-01-05T17:02:24Z Bike: "everything is &foo" is kind of a confusing phrasing, since C++ uses that syntax for call-by-reference
2021-01-05T17:02:24Z beach: aeth: And I wish you would not confuse the hell out of newbies by bringing up the compiler optimization.
2021-01-05T17:02:59Z aeth: oh, hmm, I think I confused C and C++ then
2021-01-05T17:03:06Z aeth: see? That's the problem, forcing the programmer to think about this.
2021-01-05T17:03:13Z aeth: The compiler knows better.
2021-01-05T17:03:20Z Bike: well lisp is definitely not doing C++ call-by-reference
2021-01-05T17:05:24Z beach: Exactly.
2021-01-05T17:06:00Z Bike: you could say "everything is a pointer", but that's false, and also we don't do pointer operations in lisp
2021-01-05T17:06:14Z aeth: Rephrasing... In CL, everything is indirectly accessed via a pointer (* unless optimized), just not one that you can access.
2021-01-05T17:06:21Z beach: And in C, it would send the address of a variable the value of which can then be modified inside the function, and that is definitely not what Common Lisp is doing.
2021-01-05T17:06:47Z beach: aeth: I wish you would not confuse the hell out of newbies by bringing up the compiler optimization.
2021-01-05T17:07:12Z beach: aeth: You should distinguish between semantics and implementation tricks.
2021-01-05T17:07:18Z Xach: It's interesting to me that if you don't try to think about what it's "really" doing underneath, and aren't comparing it to something else, the semantics seem pretty easy to follow to me. But maybe I've just internalized it too much.
2021-01-05T17:07:35Z phoe: I find it very easy to think it from the places point of view
2021-01-05T17:07:40Z phoe: but the places point of view is not very popular :(
2021-01-05T17:08:16Z jackdaniel: everything is a pointer unless it is an immediate object seems to be a correct description to me -- and function aguments are passed as copies of said pointers
2021-01-05T17:08:25Z aeth: beach: The thing is, someone coming from C or C++ would have as thier first rection "that's slow" if you don't put a "optimizations can happen" asterisk.
2021-01-05T17:08:27Z beach: Xach: I think that simple view is what I am trying to communicate.
2021-01-05T17:08:40Z aeth: You don't have to explain the optimizations, you just say "compilers can optimize it"
2021-01-05T17:09:09Z beach: aeth: Most newbies here aren't sophisticated enough to see that, so I suggest you bring it up only when you see that reaction.
2021-01-05T17:09:10Z pfdietz: mfiano: the interesting part of Hypothesis (or the minimal version, Minithesis) is it gives a universal way of reducing interesting inputs, by recording the random bits used by the generator and replaying using those.
2021-01-05T17:10:03Z beach: jackdaniel: But that's an unnecessary complication for a newbie since the semantics are as if every argument is a reference.
2021-01-05T17:10:32Z jackdaniel: I was referring to what Bike said
2021-01-05T17:10:42Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2021-01-05T17:10:45Z jackdaniel: (in other words, I'm not trying to educate solideogloria[m])
2021-01-05T17:10:56Z beach: Got it.
2021-01-05T17:12:01Z jackdaniel: I agree with Xach: what lisp does is what lisp does is the best approach until you start writing a transpiler
2021-01-05T17:12:21Z Xach: an object with mutable state is the same in the caller or in the function being called. changes to its mutable state will be visible to anything that knows about the object. if there is no mutable state what's "really" happening does not matter.
2021-01-05T17:12:22Z aeth: In response to Bike... Everything is a pointer (that you can't directly access) unless optimized. So it's only false if you go into implementation details (although you can assume that at the very least, all fixnums have this optimization in any reasonable implementation)
2021-01-05T17:12:36Z aeth: Obviously too technical to say to newbies.
2021-01-05T17:12:41Z Bike: the fact that they're pointers IS an implementation detail
2021-01-05T17:13:03Z Bike: i just don't understand what the point of saying they're pointers is to a C programmer. we don't use them like C programmers use pointers
2021-01-05T17:13:23Z aeth: But it's an implementation detail that has to hold on the mainstream architectures unless heavily abstracted (like e.g. a CL that compiles to JS or something)...
2021-01-05T17:13:31Z pfdietz: It's better to say that mutable things in Lisp have object identity.  Indeed, visible mutability is a way to define object identity.
2021-01-05T17:13:38Z Xach: i'm reminded of K&R 2nd ed, which tries in some cases to explain C in terms Pascal programmers would understand.
2021-01-05T17:13:39Z beach: That's why I use the term "reference" instead of "pointer".
2021-01-05T17:14:09Z beach: Bike: ^
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2021-01-05T17:20:54Z beach: solideogloria[m]: So I guess you are totally confused now.  Sorry about that!
2021-01-05T17:21:18Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Unfortunately, it happens every time.
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2021-01-05T17:25:53Z Krystof: go not to IRC for advice, for they shall say both "nay" and "yea" and "well, actually"
2021-01-05T17:26:24Z phoe: one Lisp hacker says aye, another says nay
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2021-01-05T17:26:43Z jackdaniel: the best way to receive an answer to a question is to provide an invalid statement, then people will rush in to correct you :-)
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2021-01-05T17:28:46Z aeth: I guess part of this dispute is if you see Lisp as a Platonic algorithmic language that happens to be implemented in today's hardware (top-down), or as the most convenient way to abstract over the hardware (and OSes) that exists today (bottom-up). And it's kind of both. Especially Common Lisp, which makes a lot of concessions for performance and compatibility.
2021-01-05T17:29:29Z aeth: Something like Forth is clearly the latter and something that's pure FP is clearly the former. CL is in an uncomfortable middle ground.
2021-01-05T17:30:25Z solideogloria[m]: beach: should I use global variables in that code I sent earlier ?
2021-01-05T17:30:30Z beach: aeth: When a newbie is confused about the semantics, how experienced people think of it is beside the point.  We just have to find the explanation that is the most appropriate so that the newbie can understand.
2021-01-05T17:30:34Z phoe: solideogloria[m]: not really
2021-01-05T17:30:44Z phoe: in general, use as few of them as possible
2021-01-05T17:30:51Z beach: solideogloria[m]: No, I don't recommend that.  Use the return value instead.
2021-01-05T17:31:02Z phoe: you can also have multiple return values!
2021-01-05T17:31:03Z solideogloria[m]: ok
2021-01-05T17:31:09Z beach: solideogloria[m]: (setf focus (compute-focus focus wins))
2021-01-05T17:31:12Z beach: Or something like that.
2021-01-05T17:31:24Z Xach: For enlightenment and amusement, you can also read about a comparison between BLISS and CL! https://www.xach.com/rpw3/articles/unl5jum4i6ej6d@corp.supernews.com.html
2021-01-05T17:31:25Z phoe: (defun foo () (values 1 2 3)) and then (multiple-value-bind (x y z) (foo) ...)
2021-01-05T17:31:29Z solideogloria[m]: I mean in like general, not just that
2021-01-05T17:31:40Z phoe: in general use globals very, very sparingly
2021-01-05T17:31:41Z solideogloria[m]: events is getting those values from another function
2021-01-05T17:31:45Z beach: solideogloria[m]: In general you should avoid globals.
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2021-01-05T17:32:35Z aeth: Some people use globals for configuration, which is reasonable. I restrict things a bit further, and don't really use (new) globals at all (with rare exceptions).
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2021-01-05T17:40:15Z aeth: You don't want to use globals in general because they make threading harder and you might want to use threads one day. (There are a dozen other reasons, but this is the #1 reason today imo.)
2021-01-05T17:41:51Z aeth: Today's machines are 6 to 64 cores. You don't want to make threading hard.
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2021-01-05T17:50:09Z jeosol: In the light of the global/no-global variable discussion, what is a better design to initialize the slots of a class with large number of slots, e.g., > 30, and still retain transparency. In one of my previous iterations, I had &rest and &key  ..., in the lambdalist
2021-01-05T17:50:23Z jeosol: then it can start to get very hairy ...
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2021-01-05T17:52:43Z aeth: jeosol: Try using a component-based design? So instead of one object with 30 slots have one object with 6 slots that each contain an object with 5 slots?
2021-01-05T17:52:46Z jackdaniel: jeosol: create a function
2021-01-05T17:53:01Z jackdaniel: i.e (defun initialize-slot (name) (case name (foo 42) (bar 13)))
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2021-01-05T17:53:24Z jackdaniel: then (defclass xxx ((foo :initform (initialize-slot 'foo)) (bar :initform (initialize-slot 'bar))))
2021-01-05T17:53:36Z jackdaniel: you may redefine the function later to provide different default values
2021-01-05T17:54:01Z jackdaniel: (unless you depend on the object itself, then initialize instance is of course the way)
2021-01-05T17:54:06Z jeosol: aeth: good point. something similar was suggested early when i started from comp.lang.lisp (maybe it was you). I have used that in certain places and significantly reduced the slots number,
2021-01-05T17:54:23Z aeth: I don't use c.l.l, but components are trendy.
2021-01-05T17:54:24Z jeosol: It's like a car, where tires, wheel, etc, can be their own objects.
2021-01-05T17:55:43Z moon-child: c.l.l?
2021-01-05T17:55:48Z moon-child: presumably not comp.lang.lisp?
2021-01-05T17:56:34Z jeosol: jackdaniel: thanks for that. So in the function initialize-slot will essentially, have as many slots as I have right?
2021-01-05T17:56:51Z aeth: moon-child: sorry, I thought it was clear from context, i.e. <jeosol> ... from comp.lang.lisp (maybe it was [aeth]) ... <aeth> I don't use c.l.l...
2021-01-05T17:56:54Z jeosol: moon-child: yes, I was referring to comp.lang.lisp and I think that's what aeth meant
2021-01-05T17:57:08Z jackdaniel: jeosol: that's up to you, it is the function you define
2021-01-05T17:57:17Z jeosol: ok.
2021-01-05T17:57:29Z jackdaniel: you may i.e provide otherwise clause that initializes the slot to :<unbound-but-not-really>
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2021-01-05T17:57:43Z jackdaniel: (using my "case" example)
2021-01-05T17:58:10Z jackdaniel: you could also define your own slot class, but that would be overkill given that you can use initform that way
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2021-01-05T18:03:38Z jeosol: jackdaniel: thank you for the suggestions
2021-01-05T18:04:38Z jackdaniel: sure
2021-01-05T18:04:45Z jeosol: Has anyone used/ or is using esrap reader? not sure dim is here
2021-01-05T18:04:56Z dim: I am
2021-01-05T18:05:06Z jeosol: basically, I'll like to go from a file of input data and then create my final object
2021-01-05T18:05:17Z jeosol: dim: hi
2021-01-05T18:05:20Z dim: been a long time I didn't hack esrap related things though, last time was a full Oracle PLSQL parser ;-)
2021-01-05T18:05:41Z jeosol: I remember, you pointed me over from comp.lang.lisp to look at pgloader code for an example
2021-01-05T18:06:01Z dim: sounds like the kind of thing I would do yes
2021-01-05T18:06:05Z jeosol: haha
2021-01-05T18:06:38Z jeosol: dim: well you did.
2021-01-05T18:08:40Z dim: hehe, well, did you find what you wanted to?
2021-01-05T18:09:01Z jeosol: dim: the pgloader example is still the best one to go to?
2021-01-05T18:09:13Z VincentVega: "In the LUV slides (page 13) by Norvig and Pitman, they explain that WHEN should be used only with Booleans, so I would write (UNLESS (NULL EVENT)...) "
2021-01-05T18:09:22Z VincentVega: beach: they make that particular suggestion w/ regards to AND/OR, not WHEN. (when smth ...) as a nil guard feels like a no-brainer, an idiom. Why be unnecessarily verbose, since it's only a question of preference?
2021-01-05T18:09:29Z dim: it's the only one I know well enough to comment, other examples might be better suited to your use case
2021-01-05T18:10:17Z jeosol: dim: I have a file for a 3rd partly software that I'd like to read and create objects as I read the file. Some of the objects are intermediate slots to a large final objects. For now, I do this process by hand, hence my large lambdalist question earlier
2021-01-05T18:10:54Z dim: well then you might find pgloader parsers useful indeed
2021-01-05T18:11:03Z jeosol: dim: I'd have to go back to it. The 3rd party software file uses include files, i.e., one file includes another file. I am thinking, I should first expand the whole thing, and then use esrap
2021-01-05T18:11:09Z jackdaniel: jeosol: here is another example (https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecrepl/-/blob/master/c18-syntax-reader.lisp) -- and here is more finished version with the preprocessor written by scymtym (https://github.com/scymtym/language.c)
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2021-01-05T18:12:07Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/parsers/parse-pgpass.lisp this one is a simple one, jeosol ; to get started
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2021-01-05T18:14:31Z jeosol: jackdaniel, dim: thanks guys. These examples should help me figure things out.
2021-01-05T18:17:23Z ralt: dim: hey, long time no see
2021-01-05T18:17:34Z dim: hey ralt !
2021-01-05T18:18:29Z dim: your distribution project looked nice, I might have to find it again and try it with pgloader... best would be to hook-it up somehow with GitHub and some CI system to produce binaries for a choice of platforms automatically, I suppose
2021-01-05T18:18:35Z dim: I wish I had time to invest in that
2021-01-05T18:19:16Z ralt: Yup, the gitlab repo has a CI example for that
2021-01-05T18:19:33Z pfdietz: I had a use for defglobal in sbcl, as a counter accessed by atomic-incf.  Much faster than using explicit locks.
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2021-01-05T18:23:24Z VincentVega: pfdietz: you mean atomic-incf requires the variable to be global?
2021-01-05T18:24:02Z moon-child: aeth: oh, duh, I need to read better :P
2021-01-05T18:25:06Z pfdietz: I wanted a single counter, regardless of threading.
2021-01-05T18:27:44Z VincentVega: ah i see
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2021-01-05T19:22:19Z heisig: Is there a somewhat portable Lisp library for emitting memory barriers?
2021-01-05T19:23:37Z Bike: do any lisps besides sbcl have that?
2021-01-05T19:23:46Z heisig: I don't know.
2021-01-05T19:24:35Z heisig: I am trying to implement an algorithm based on a reference implementation in Java and I'm struggling to translate 'volatile' slots.
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2021-01-05T19:30:50Z Bike: i'm not sure any implementations actually have something like volatile slots
2021-01-05T19:31:07Z Bike: which... iirc are modified sequentially consistently? i haven't stared at the JSR in a while
2021-01-05T19:32:13Z Bike: right yeah.
2021-01-05T19:32:36Z Bike: there's cas sometimes but not a way to mark reads and writes as necessarily atomic
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2021-01-05T19:33:42Z Bike: if there is a cas you could assume that it's SC and use it for both reads and writes, but that's kind of stupid looking
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2021-01-05T19:45:06Z heisig: Bike: Good idea, I'll give that a try.  Maybe I can hide the CAS instructions behind wrapped slot readers and writers.
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2021-01-05T19:57:12Z alandipert: is the issue here that typical CL thread conventions are per-thread bindings? and lack of a primitive like volatile to denote a mutable value across threads?
2021-01-05T19:59:59Z Bike: it's not really related to dynamic variables.
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2021-01-05T20:00:37Z Bike: i mean it is a little, but it's a deeper issue. the order of things across threads but outside of locks is not defined.
2021-01-05T20:00:48Z heisig: alandipert: I want to implement a fast, lock-free work-stealing deque so I need to enforce some ordering between slot reads and writes.
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2021-01-05T20:01:16Z Bike: languages like java and C++ have spent a lot of effort writing standards for these "atomic" operations that we haven't
2021-01-05T20:01:52Z moon-child: yeah memory model spec was a big effort.  And they still didn't even get it right :P
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2021-01-05T20:02:14Z Bike: it is funny seeing all the C++ stuff that's like "there's also memory_order_consume. you shouldn't use it since it's broken"
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2021-01-05T20:02:25Z moon-child: (that's more on c&c++ side; idk if there was anything wrong with java's memory model)
2021-01-05T20:02:35Z pfdietz: In the code I was referring to, in non-sbcl lisps explicit locks were used to access a slot with class allocation (which is a kind of non-special global).
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2021-01-05T20:02:49Z Bike: i think java is fine. it also doesn't have sub-sequential-consistency like C++ does.
2021-01-05T20:03:01Z Bike: abandoning sequential consistency drops you straight into hell
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2021-01-05T20:04:05Z heisig: I just wrote a macro to generate custom slot accessors, such that a memory barrier is emitted before each read, and after each write.  That seems to have solved my problem.
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2021-01-05T20:11:07Z alandipert: i've only every studied java but they have the advantage of defining thread semantics, vs the endless bolting-on that seems to happen with c++ (my perception from a distance, nowhere near an expert at c++ myself)
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2021-01-05T20:11:56Z alandipert: and my perception of CL is that it was carefully designed to accommodate likely designs without specifying any
2021-01-05T20:12:10Z moon-child: alandipert: c11 and c++11 got a proper memory model, like java
2021-01-05T20:12:44Z Bike: the lisp standard has no mention of threads or particular preparation for them whatsoever. bordeaux threads puts in some effort but nothing for atomics, and i don't think it actually defines a model anyway
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2021-01-05T20:13:30Z alandipert wonders about the origin of the per-thread binding semantic
2021-01-05T20:14:09Z Bike: that was something they agreed on when they came up with bordeaux threads, is my understanding
2021-01-05T20:14:32Z Bike: where "they" means whatever group that did that. it's more recent than the standard
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2021-01-05T20:15:36Z ralt: I would've thought the per-implementation thread APIs came before bordeaux threads
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2021-01-05T20:16:05Z Bike: they do, yes, but there is a gulf between implementing something and defining the semantics for it.
2021-01-05T20:16:28Z moon-child: presumably there is at least *some* relationship between the spec and the preceding implementations, though; no?
2021-01-05T20:17:22Z ralt: the spec makes zero mentions of threads afaik
2021-01-05T20:17:23Z Bike: sure, but you can write code without fully defining all semantics for it. i expect that in at least a few implementations, before they were bordeaux threads "conformant" they hadn't put in any thought into how dynamic bindings interacted with threads
2021-01-05T20:17:33Z moon-child: ralt: I mean bordeaux
2021-01-05T20:17:58Z Bike: i don't think any lisp implementation currently defines what happens if you modify/read data from multiple threads simultaneously, or even says that doing so is undefined
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2021-01-05T20:18:38Z Bike: several implementations have atomic operations including CAS but i don't think they have models of how they work
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2021-01-05T20:22:24Z Bike: i mean really you have to define concepts like simultaneity. there are ones that are broadly accepted, of course, but it's good to be specific
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2021-01-05T20:24:08Z alandipert: i suppose thread-local bindings don't require one to approach simultaneity, since the mutation is per thread?
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2021-01-05T20:24:18Z alandipert: whereas something like volatile definitely does
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2021-01-05T20:24:54Z Bike: yeah, it's fairly easy to define the semantics if you just have threads and locks
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2021-01-05T20:26:43Z Bike: the dynamic binding stuff kind of isn't related to execution order. if you bind a dynamic variable in a thread, whatever value it had globally is irrelevant, so whether the binding happens before or after modifications of the global value from other threads is irrelevant
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2021-01-05T20:27:14Z Bike: before or after or during
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2021-01-05T22:17:05Z frodef: Is there a functional equivalent to OR already defined in CL?
2021-01-05T22:17:57Z pve: frodef: like SOME?
2021-01-05T22:18:47Z frodef: pve: yes, except with the "same" syntax as or, i.e an &rest arglist instead of a list argument.
2021-01-05T22:19:03Z phoe: frodef: (a:curry #'some #'identity)
2021-01-05T22:19:14Z phoe: oh, wait, also with #'apply
2021-01-05T22:19:22Z phoe: there's nothing built-in.
2021-01-05T22:19:41Z frodef: suppose not, but thanks.
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2021-01-05T22:33:54Z etimmons: ralt: shinohai: My current patch for static executables and explanation are at https://www.timmons.dev/posts/static-executables-with-sbcl.html
2021-01-05T22:34:13Z etimmons: thanks for helping motivate me to finally get a personal site up and running
2021-01-05T22:34:48Z phoe crossposts to /r/Common_Lisp
2021-01-05T22:34:56Z ralt: and there was much rejoicing
2021-01-05T22:35:22Z White_Flame: frodef: (defun or-func (&rest args) (loop for arg in args when arg return arg)) ?
2021-01-05T22:35:40Z White_Flame: you can shortcut because all the args have been evaluated before the call
2021-01-05T22:36:18Z frodef: White_Flame: sure, or (some 'identity args)
2021-01-05T22:36:36Z frodef: .. or (loop for arg in args thereis arg)
2021-01-05T22:36:51Z White_Flame: yeah, lots of options.  I thought SOME was out
2021-01-05T22:37:00Z White_Flame should sleep more ;)
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2021-01-05T22:37:18Z shinohai: etimmons: Thank you very much, will read now.
2021-01-05T22:37:39Z frodef: White_Flame: nah, just figured there might be some or-func equivalent I'd missed.
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2021-01-05T22:44:48Z _death: there can't be a straightforward functional equivalent since OR also passes along multiple values
2021-01-05T22:45:11Z phoe: there can be one, you simply ignore non-primary values
2021-01-05T22:45:17Z phoe: as with all function arguments
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2021-01-05T22:58:36Z ralt: etimmons: isn't libdl available at runtime if you link against musl?
2021-01-05T22:59:18Z etimmons: "Sort of" it's a shim that does nothing but return errors (assuming you're statically linking)
2021-01-05T22:59:43Z ralt: annoying
2021-01-05T22:59:46Z moon-child: doesn't musl have its own dynamic linker?  Why couldn't they leverage that and link it in too?
2021-01-05T23:01:00Z ralt: etimmons: so I if understand correctly, your patches are essentially (1) make --without-os-provides-dlopen work, and (2) provide this script to dump the lisp image's symbols to a file that you can then compile sbcl with?
2021-01-05T23:01:52Z etimmons: I think one of the reasons is that musl doesn't have a lot of interdependencies between the different libc components and it's very likely that static linking will prune chunks of libc
2021-01-05T23:02:21Z etimmons: And they don't want to deal with reloading those pieces dynamically if a library you later dlopen requires them
2021-01-05T23:02:32Z etimmons: ralt: correct
2021-01-05T23:02:59Z ralt: it's annoying to have to compile sbcl separately for every app :/
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2021-01-05T23:04:48Z etimmons: I know... I think there could be a path forward, though. It'd require relaxing the requirement that build ids match between the runtime and core and rejiggering the code to gracefully fail in the presence of the stub libdl
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2021-01-05T23:05:31Z etimmons: Or you could be overzealous with the libraries you link into the runtime (and overpopulate the linkage table)
2021-01-05T23:05:54Z etimmons: and then only rebuild the runtime when you want to shake out the unused symbols
2021-01-05T23:06:38Z ralt: can't you build a custom runtime from sbcl one's?
2021-01-05T23:06:54Z ralt: so you don't touch sbcl.core et al, you just increment from there?
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2021-01-05T23:09:26Z etimmons: Potentially. One thing in the way of that right now is you probably want to develop with :os-provides-dlopen, which can't be present when you build the static runtime. And rebuilding the runtime will change its build ID and it will reject your development core
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2021-01-05T23:10:37Z ralt: no I mean making the runtime into a separate file altogether
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2021-01-05T23:11:54Z etimmons: I don't think I understand what you're suggesting
2021-01-05T23:12:37Z ralt: I think we're talking past each other, yes
2021-01-05T23:13:15Z ralt: what's "your development core"?
2021-01-05T23:13:18Z ralt: the sbcl.core file?
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2021-01-05T23:15:02Z etimmons: In my ideal world we'd develop like normal with a dynamic SBCL runtime and then save-lisp-and-die (with :executable nil) that's my "development core"
2021-01-05T23:15:25Z etimmons: we'd then have a script that pulls the linkage info directly from the core and builds a static runtime
2021-01-05T23:16:02Z ralt: can you provide a stub dlopen() that looks in the static linkage table?
2021-01-05T23:16:14Z etimmons: and then the static runtime would load the "development core" so we don't have to compile the lisp code twice
2021-01-05T23:21:37Z etimmons: Hmmmmm. Probably. I get some feedback early on that was basically "don't build with :os-provides-dlopen and then stub out dlopen"
2021-01-05T23:21:56Z etimmons: But that stub was a no-op. Perhaps a severely restricted but still functional dlopen/dlsym would get a better reception
2021-01-05T23:23:19Z ralt: What I'm thinking is that if the fake dlopen() looks in a static table, and you can dump this static table with save-lisp-and-die, then you solve the problem, no?
2021-01-05T23:24:29Z ralt: I'm not sure if what I'm saying makes sense
2021-01-05T23:24:43Z ralt: Probably input from sbcl devs would be better.
2021-01-05T23:25:22Z ralt: hmmm
2021-01-05T23:25:35Z etimmons: Yes, but save-lisp-and-die can only dump the symbol names. You'll still need a core relink (and recompile of a single file) to get the other half of that table
2021-01-05T23:25:37Z etimmons: s/core relink/runtime relink/
2021-01-05T23:26:31Z ralt: actually
2021-01-05T23:26:37Z ralt: there's this sbcl.o file you can build
2021-01-05T23:27:18Z ralt: it has all the symbols
2021-01-05T23:28:07Z ralt: if you link it with the runtime, you end up with a static binary that supposedly has all the symbols and the other half of the table
2021-01-05T23:28:45Z ralt: but the current problem is that dlopen() will fail because it's the stub
2021-01-05T23:29:05Z etimmons: Isn't sbcl.o the runtime?
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2021-01-05T23:30:55Z ralt: is it? I'm not sure anymore now. https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Vq3qdldG/
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2021-01-05T23:32:27Z etimmons: I'm definitely not a C developer (thank goodness) so it's definitely possible I'm missing something, but I don't see any way to support both dynamically loading foreign libs and creating a static executable without a relink of the runtime at a minimum.
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2021-01-05T23:33:10Z etimmons: Yep, sbcl.o is simply the runtime linked together into an object file
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2021-01-05T23:35:33Z ralt: I'm not much of a C dev either, but as I understand it, you can do e.g. `gcc -static my-dynamic-runtime sbcl.o -o static-runtime`, no? as long as `my-dynamic-runtime` has a dlopen() that looks in itself first?
2021-01-05T23:37:54Z etimmons: Looking back at some of my other early feedback, there may be a way to reuse the core between the dynamic and static runtimes, so the Lisp code wouldn't have to be recompiled at least
2021-01-05T23:38:18Z ralt: do you have a link to that sbcl-devel thread?
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2021-01-05T23:40:07Z etimmons: https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/sbcl-devel/thread/87d06ro5ok.fsf%40rocinante.timmons.dev/#msg37020648
2021-01-05T23:41:35Z etimmons: and https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/sbcl-devel/thread/20200713200236.22507-1-etimmons%40mit.edu/#msg37060573
2021-01-05T23:41:59Z etimmons: But I now have to run for dinner!
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2021-01-05T23:47:14Z ralt: as I understand it, the problem is that the symbols are actually linked into the executable with gcc, but sbcl insists on loading them for its linkage table, and is not succeeding because it uses dlopen(). In my naive mind, it means that making reinit() use another way in the case of static builds to find the symbol should be the right way.
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2021-01-05T23:51:00Z ralt: and maybe it doesn't even need a linkage table on the C side if it's a static binary.
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2021-01-05T23:58:35Z ralt: ok yeah, prefilling the table is what the shrinkwrap stuff is about
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2021-01-05T23:58:55Z ralt: which is what you wanted to avoid because of arm
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2021-01-06T00:11:21Z etimmons: I can pretty much guarantee that the devs would object to removing the linkage table. They just purged the last arches that didn't use it.
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2021-01-06T00:12:26Z ralt: I meant conditionally, based on the staticness
2021-01-06T00:12:47Z etimmons: Are you objecting most to recompiling the lisp code, the runtime, or both?
2021-01-06T00:13:54Z ralt: I'm mostly annoyed by having to recompile sbcl for every different app.
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2021-01-06T00:14:54Z etimmons: Because I think the reader conditionals in the lisp code for os-provides-dl* could be replaced with runtime checks for dlsym in the linkage table. I suspect that would be enough to make the core reusable, so long as you're careful when you rebuild the runtime.
2021-01-06T00:15:46Z ralt: Basically the ideal experience is that you apt-get install sbcl and then you (asdf:make :foo) and it builds your static binary
2021-01-06T00:16:23Z ralt: And we can make enough automation in e.g. cffi or asdf wrappers or upstream
2021-01-06T00:16:35Z etimmons: I think that's possible, so long as sbcl.o is present.
2021-01-06T00:16:54Z ralt: right, sbcl.o is a requirement
2021-01-06T00:16:59Z ralt: That's ok
2021-01-06T00:17:11Z ralt: Although right now it's not built by default...
2021-01-06T00:19:45Z ralt: Anyway, exciting times
2021-01-06T00:19:50Z etimmons: I think if we can get rid of the need for :os-provides-dl* in the lisp code, your vision becomes much more feasible.
2021-01-06T00:19:59Z ralt: I gotta go now, have a good evening
2021-01-06T00:20:07Z etimmons: Thanks, you too
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2021-01-06T00:50:19Z Xach: win 3
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2021-01-06T01:05:37Z ck_: (the command more commonly known as tic-tac-toe)
2021-01-06T01:05:48Z Xach: etimmons: welcome to jurassic park
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2021-01-06T02:18:44Z dbotton: So my project CLOG - The Common Lisp Omnificent GUI is coming along well. It binds all the browser objects (window, screen, document, etc.) and all the connectivity needed for HTML (supports getter and setters for general properties and styles, binding events on elements etc.)
2021-01-06T02:18:44Z dbotton: There is still much left before I can do some cool demos, ie direct creation of forms, canvas, multi media stuff etc.
2021-01-06T02:18:44Z dbotton: In particular if anyone has the time can comment on the code base so far if have some time.
2021-01-06T02:18:44Z dbotton: clog-connection that package is the glue between browser and the lisp interface which is contained in package clog which the rest of the code is in (files divide up functionality and various CLOS objects).
2021-01-06T02:19:34Z dbotton: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog
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2021-01-06T02:23:39Z dbotton: The idea behind it is you can do full local GUIs that are cross platform by just setting up a project in electron (which gives you a browser window in a native app on win, osx, linix etc) or various projects on ios android etc and all use the same lisp code base and you easily can use the same app for the web.
2021-01-06T02:26:04Z dbotton: The idea works well and I've used it for years for my projects in Ada, this is a Common Lisp rewrite which so far is much easier to write GUIs in.
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2021-01-06T02:26:50Z saturn2: interesting...
2021-01-06T02:29:24Z dbotton: If have time let me know what can improve the code base
2021-01-06T02:29:32Z dbotton: I am about 1/2 way done
2021-01-06T02:30:09Z dbotton: The rest is just tedious work on creating various elements in Lisp
2021-01-06T02:30:10Z saturn2: on first glance, it looks like there is a lot of very repetitive code that could use more abstraction
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2021-01-06T02:31:21Z dbotton: Perhaps but there are small changes here and there that prevent much but open to hear where and what to do
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2021-01-06T02:37:40Z etimmons: Xach: Awesome, thanks!
2021-01-06T02:37:48Z dbotton: (Meaning the some of the binding to styles and properties have various nuances)
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2021-01-06T02:42:37Z saturn2: you can write a macro that accepts these nuances as parameters, so you can write (define-style foo :this-nuance (a b c) :that-nuance (x y z)) instead of copying and pasting the same code many times
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2021-01-06T02:44:57Z pfdietz: What might be done with code generators in other languages is done in Common Lisp with macros.  The macros can perform arbitrary computations at macroexpansion time.  For example, one could write a parser generator and implement it in a macro.
2021-01-06T02:47:09Z dbotton: This I know, I just wanted to write code already, rather than spend time yet on macros. I've written a number while learning the language
2021-01-06T02:47:29Z dbotton: But for sure will refactor the code with them later
2021-01-06T02:48:04Z aeth: yeah
2021-01-06T02:48:07Z aeth: I do the same.
2021-01-06T02:48:25Z aeth: Write it plain and simple, and then see where macros can make sense.
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2021-01-06T02:48:41Z aeth: Plus, it's fun removing a 1000+ lines of code
2021-01-06T02:48:57Z nij: Someone mentioned stumpwm for me a few weeks ago. I'm on it now and I love it. Thank you <3
2021-01-06T02:49:10Z moon-child: yeah but
2021-01-06T02:49:21Z moon-child: wouldn't it be even nicer if you didn't have to write those 1k oc in the first place?
2021-01-06T02:49:21Z dbotton: I actually look forward to it on this code, would have saved much time typing to start with it, but my macro foo not good enough yet
2021-01-06T02:49:25Z aeth: moon-child: coffee
2021-01-06T02:49:53Z aeth: moon-child: Often coffee makes me just write, with quality not really relevant. Then I can clean it up later.
2021-01-06T02:50:11Z aeth: Rarely, I code myself into a giant mess that I have to rewrite, but that was like 3-4 times total.
2021-01-06T02:50:19Z pfdietz: (1) produce a limited prototype, (2) identify common patterns and macroize, (3) finish filling out the prototype, now using the macros.
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2021-01-06T02:50:44Z aeth: yeah
2021-01-06T02:50:48Z dbotton: For sure moon-child but like I said I wanted to code asap :)
2021-01-06T02:50:54Z aeth: pfdietz: You abstract before you finish, definitely.
2021-01-06T02:51:56Z dbotton: I need certain tools for my ideas like CLOG
2021-01-06T02:52:37Z dbotton: And cleaning up this code will also help me get the macro experience I need cleaning it up
2021-01-06T02:54:07Z dbotton: Like I said before I wish I started on lisp a good 20 years ago
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2021-01-06T02:58:58Z dbotton: Once done with CLOG have some Visual Basic "style" tools I'd like to make with CLOG for lisp.
2021-01-06T02:59:27Z dbotton: I estimate should be done with CLOG in a few more weeks
2021-01-06T03:00:08Z dbotton: (At least first version before refactoring, etc)
2021-01-06T03:08:53Z nij: Anyone knows how to control stumpwm from the repl (slime or sly @@), if possible?
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2021-01-06T03:18:59Z dbotton: b
2021-01-06T03:22:05Z aeth: nij: yes
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2021-01-06T03:22:27Z aeth: nij: I think you can start a swank server via the execute-a-command command
2021-01-06T03:22:47Z nij: aeth:  Thanks for the keyword!
2021-01-06T03:23:02Z nij: Any promising terminal emulator written in Lisp?!
2021-01-06T03:24:22Z aeth: A terminal + a POSIX shell is a nice project for someone to do.
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2021-01-06T03:26:34Z aeth: nij: https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm/wiki/Hacking-StumpWM
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2021-01-06T03:29:17Z aeth: nij: There's an outside chance that |3b| might have something like a terminal emulator in CL...
2021-01-06T03:29:32Z aeth: iirc |3b| has run Emacs in OpenGL before, which is harder
2021-01-06T03:33:47Z pfdietz: Is there an s-expression editor in CL, like the old sedit in Interlisp?
2021-01-06T03:33:47Z mfiano: plisp has uncursed. |3b| has 3bst
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2021-01-06T03:55:50Z nij: aeth: What does it mean by a "CL port" of st?
2021-01-06T03:59:11Z MetaYan: nij: From the README at https://github.com/3b/3bst : "CL port of the terminal emulation part of st (http://st.suckless.org/)"
2021-01-06T04:00:06Z nij: Yes, this is what I'm curious about.
2021-01-06T04:00:17Z nij: What is a "CL port" of xyz?
2021-01-06T04:00:19Z MetaYan: Ah, I misunderstood your question.
2021-01-06T04:00:45Z nij: Is it a program written in CL that mimicks st?
2021-01-06T04:01:06Z nij: Or is it st but allows users to control/config it in the lang CL?
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2021-01-06T04:04:33Z MetaYan: nij: It looks like a rewrite in CL. So ported to CL sounds right.
2021-01-06T04:05:16Z nij: I see.
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2021-01-06T04:06:15Z waleee-cl: seems to miss dependencies that would allow it to run outside of a host terminal?
2021-01-06T04:07:06Z aeth: oh...
2021-01-06T04:07:23Z aeth: Interesting. A minimalist C program, probably not to hard to mechanically translate and then clean up if the license is nice.
2021-01-06T04:07:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-06T04:07:47Z aeth: I did suspect |3b| was running emacs via a ported terminal
2021-01-06T04:08:34Z aeth: Probably wouldn't be too hard to port other such programs
2021-01-06T04:08:48Z aeth: I think the Java community loves to do this sort of thing.
2021-01-06T04:17:23Z beach: VincentVega: Minimal verbosity is not the main objective of maintainability.  But one is "minimal surprise to the maintainer".  To Norvig and Pitman, that "idiom" is surprising, and I agree with them.  The value is not a Boolean, yet it is tested as if it were.
2021-01-06T04:17:23Z beach: The NIL value is not a Boolean, it is a "default value", and it should be obvious from the code that this is what is meant, i.e. (UNLESS (<default-value-p> VALUE) ...)  In this case the predicate happens to be NULL.
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2021-01-06T06:37:59Z mrios22: Hi, I have a question about ASDF. Yesterday (asdf:load-system :myproject) worked fine in SLIME. I rebooted my computer, and now ASDF cannot find :myproject. The files for :myproject are in the local-projects directory of quicklisp, so I thought ASDF would be able to find them. I'm new to creating projects and using asdf. Is there anything obvious that I am missing? Thanks.
2021-01-06T06:38:48Z beach: You may want to do (ql:register-local-projects) (once) before calling ASDF.
2021-01-06T06:39:05Z mrios22: beach, thank you, I will try that.
2021-01-06T06:39:10Z beach: I can't explain why it worked yesterday and not today, though.
2021-01-06T06:40:18Z mrios22: It's possible that I had loaded every file in the project into my inferior lisp so ASDF had no trouble finding all of the symbols I was asking it to look for.
2021-01-06T06:40:32Z beach: Yes, that would be one possible explanation.
2021-01-06T06:42:33Z mrios22: beach -- the (ql:register-local-projects) command worked after I restarted my inferior common lisp process in slime. However, I'll have to do this every time I start SLIME. The solution is to never shut off my computer :)
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2021-01-06T06:42:59Z beach: No, once should do.
2021-01-06T06:43:29Z beach: Next time you start a new image, all your .asd files should be known to ASDF.
2021-01-06T06:43:56Z mrios22: That's curious. I did (ql:register-local-projects), restarted my inferior lisp, and then tried (asdf:load-system :myproject). I got the same error that I got before.
2021-01-06T06:44:08Z beach: That's very strange.
2021-01-06T06:44:14Z beach: I have no explanation for that.
2021-01-06T06:44:21Z mrios22: Then I did (ql:register-local-projects). After that, my asdf:load-system worked.
2021-01-06T06:44:43Z beach: Maybe the place where Quicklisp stores this information is not writable?
2021-01-06T06:44:49Z beach: I am making wild guesses here.
2021-01-06T06:45:06Z mrios22: Let me check my home directory to see what the flags are.
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2021-01-06T06:46:24Z mrios22: Everything in my ~/quicklisp directory seems to be writeable.
2021-01-06T06:46:47Z beach: I am afraid I don't know where Quicklisp stores this information.
2021-01-06T06:47:01Z mrios22: In any case, I should get to work. Thanks for the advice.
2021-01-06T06:47:22Z beach: Sure.  Sorry I wasn't able to give more help.
2021-01-06T06:47:52Z mrios22: No need to apologize, your advice saved me a lot of trouble and frustration :) Thank you.
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2021-01-06T06:48:04Z beach: Sure.  Good luck!
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2021-01-06T08:01:34Z beach: I uploaded a new (still very preliminary) version of my paper on call-site optimization: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf
2021-01-06T08:01:35Z beach: As usual, I would appreciate any remarks, in particular remarks indicating that the explanation is not good enough.  But also, if someone has information on other types of call-site optimization no matter the programming language, please let me know.
2021-01-06T08:01:58Z beach: There are now some figures as well that might help communicating the idea.
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2021-01-06T08:18:13Z frodef plan to read beach's paper soonish.
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2021-01-06T08:19:09Z beach: Thanks.  I appreciate it.
2021-01-06T08:19:36Z beach: It subsumes your technique with multiple entry points according to the number of arguments, for instance.
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2021-01-06T08:27:52Z frodef: beach: sounds interesting, now I just need to get my printer to connect to the network, sigh.
2021-01-06T08:28:17Z beach: I see.  I hate that kind of stuff.
2021-01-06T08:29:01Z frodef: now add: the wiring up in the crawlspace, which is now at -15 degrees...
2021-01-06T08:29:38Z frodef: ...so if I have any comments for you later, I hope you /really/ appreciate them ;-)
2021-01-06T08:29:53Z beach: Heh, yes, I understand.
2021-01-06T08:30:11Z beach: Where do you live these days?  I didn't realize it was that cold.
2021-01-06T08:30:30Z frodef: there was just a substantial temperature drop in oslo.
2021-01-06T08:30:37Z beach: Oh, wow.
2021-01-06T08:34:26Z splittist: phoe's interview on 47degrees (47signals? 47syscalls?) was great. The interviewer was engaging - staying out of the way, but giving nice reaction shots. I was surprised to see rainbow parens, for some reason.
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2021-01-06T08:38:16Z beach: I agree it was very good.
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2021-01-06T09:07:01Z dim: typo alert: “This optimization was introduced by Gerd Moellmann in 2002, and has since been includes also in SBCL” <-- includes/included
2021-01-06T09:07:17Z beach: Thanks.
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2021-01-06T09:08:32Z beach: Fixed!
2021-01-06T09:10:17Z dim: wow that's a nice round-trip latency ;-)
2021-01-06T09:10:31Z beach: Heh, thanks!
2021-01-06T09:11:10Z dim: I like what I'm reading so far, it makes me feel like I'm smart enough to understand what you're talking about ;-) also I wonder if boa-constructors belong to the topic in some ways?
2021-01-06T09:12:10Z beach: Oh, didn't think of those.  I'll have a look.  Thanks for the hint.  They may fall into the same category as MAKE-INSTANCE.
2021-01-06T09:13:02Z beach: I am thinking that, with this technique, Common Lisp could have function calls as fast as (or faster than) those in static programming languages.
2021-01-06T09:13:19Z beach: Doesn't dynamic linking require at least one indirection for function calls?
2021-01-06T09:13:28Z beach: I know access to global variables does.
2021-01-06T09:13:51Z dim: tyop-of-a-kind alert: “but it crucially allows us” -- try using “and” instead of “but”, if the meaning of the sentence is kept, then you certainly would better use “and”
2021-01-06T09:14:59Z beach: I'll add an "also" instead.
2021-01-06T09:15:05Z beach: That's more like what I meant.
2021-01-06T09:15:26Z dim: dynamic linking would do that yeah, and it's a complete mess (in C at least) if you ever load more than once, or if you can't find the symbol the code expects to find... openssl in particular is a trouble maker in that space, the CFFI bindings for CL are a constant hurdle
2021-01-06T09:15:55Z dim: the proof reader of my book often replaced and/also with “moreover” which I ended-up liking a lot
2021-01-06T09:16:46Z beach: OK, that's a good hint.  Thanks.
2021-01-06T09:17:01Z dim: also I think a part of what you're talking about in your paper would be typically implemented in C like systems by the linker phase of compilation, right?
2021-01-06T09:17:46Z beach: I think link-time optimization is a kludge to compensate for the lack of information resulting from separate compilation, yes.
2021-01-06T09:18:04Z dim: I mean each .c file is used to produce a .o object file, with a map of function entry-points, and then the linker's job is to concatenate them all together and edit a new “global” map of entry points for the final binary, at least that's my understanding
2021-01-06T09:18:31Z beach: Traditional static languages have really made a mess of everything, just because they insist on making us believe that we are programming slow machines without an operating system.
2021-01-06T09:18:54Z dim: ahah that's a good one
2021-01-06T09:19:40Z dim: or maybe because Unix was meant as a quite dumbed down OS to boot (not as complex as the Multics beast) and then became the standard expectation for an OS layer?
2021-01-06T09:19:45Z beach: We (Common Lisp programmers) are lucky in that we always have the entire code for the system immediately available.  We now just have to take advantage of that fact.
2021-01-06T09:20:27Z beach: Unix was meant to be as large a subset as possible of Multics that would also run on a PDP-11.
2021-01-06T09:20:34Z beach: Or was it PDP 8?
2021-01-06T09:20:47Z dim: I began to understand what Stallman meant with the 4 rights of the GPL when I started hacking Emacs Lisp, that's where I first had that experience you're alluding to I suppose
2021-01-06T09:21:27Z beach: I don't see the relation, sorry.
2021-01-06T09:21:35Z dim: I mean having the whole “system” code available and easily recompiled at run-time makes it obvious that you want to have the right to study and edit the code
2021-01-06T09:21:43Z beach: Ah, yes, I see.
2021-01-06T09:23:30Z dim: when using Unix and say “apt install tmux” or whatever software, if you want to look at the code you need to “apt source tmux” and that needs a specific source entry in your sources list, and then if you want to edit the code and recompile it you need “apt-get build-dep tmux” and then with debian you actually have a good chance you can build your custom program, thanks debian, and still it is quite complex
2021-01-06T09:23:49Z dim: in Emacs and then in Common Lisp, you just C-. on the symbol and hack away, C-c C-c, and benefit now
2021-01-06T09:23:53Z beach: I should re-read my (signed) copy of "Linkers and Loaders".  If there is an indirection for function calls, I can include that fact in the paper.
2021-01-06T09:24:26Z beach: Sure.  But that's not quite what I meant.  I meant that we don't have separate compilation.
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2021-01-06T09:24:51Z dim: I though we had compilation units of sorts?
2021-01-06T09:25:12Z beach: But they don't start with an empty global environment the way C and C++ do.
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2021-01-06T09:25:48Z beach: And once they are loaded into the system, they are present just like the rest of the system, and can be transformed, since we have the compiler available at run-time.
2021-01-06T09:26:53Z beach: Before link-time optimization, those languages had to fill up the environment using includes for each compilation, and they have to produce object code without knowing the rest of the system.
2021-01-06T09:27:13Z dim: ah yeah, the empty global env and the #include and pre-processor thing still makes me sad/mad
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2021-01-06T09:28:30Z Nilby: When I ran lisp on a pdp8 it was the whole OS booted off a floopy. But then the pdp8 was also a desk.
2021-01-06T09:28:53Z phoe: splittist: I love rainbow parens
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2021-01-06T09:31:35Z splittist: phoe: interesting
2021-01-06T09:31:42Z Nilby: phoe: thanks for the awesome talk on 47˚, you made me realize i didn't have a retry restart in my repl.
2021-01-06T09:35:37Z phoe: Nilby: gasp! what REPL do you use?
2021-01-06T09:36:42Z phoe: splittist: my eyes react very well to colors, rainbow parens give me additional depth information, especially with this six-color palette that I got used to after some years
2021-01-06T09:36:53Z phoe: but that's already the category of personal lifehacks
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2021-01-06T09:37:23Z Nilby: phoe: a crappy one i wrote, gasp
2021-01-06T09:37:46Z phoe: oh! so you can add the restart yourself easily
2021-01-06T09:38:00Z Nilby: i did :)
2021-01-06T09:38:04Z phoe: :D
2021-01-06T09:38:41Z Nilby: but 'retry it is actually in sb-ext
2021-01-06T09:39:00Z phoe: actually, it can be in any package you want or need
2021-01-06T09:39:20Z phoe: you can fetch the symbol itself via restart-name if needed
2021-01-06T09:40:05Z phoe: if you use string= for comparing restart names, then you can match FOO:RETRY, BAR:RETRY, SB-EXT:RETRY, and what else
2021-01-06T09:40:18Z phoe: e.g. the slime debugger doesn't show packages of restart names
2021-01-06T09:41:14Z Nilby: I guess I could change the debugger not to show package names. Now that I'm further in the video, I see you wrote your own debugger too.
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2021-01-06T09:41:37Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/portable-condition-system
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2021-01-06T09:46:47Z phoe: spice it up with trivial-custom-debugger and you can install a custom debugger mostly anywhere
2021-01-06T09:47:57Z beach: phoe: Do you have any feedback from people other than Common Lisp programmers on the video?
2021-01-06T09:48:08Z beach: I had to leave early, so I didn't see the end of the chat.
2021-01-06T09:48:43Z beach: I mean, I don't know what crowd was to be expected, given the topic, and the "channel".
2021-01-06T09:49:00Z phoe: beach: not much, but it was good overall
2021-01-06T09:49:11Z beach: Great!
2021-01-06T09:49:33Z phoe: glad to have the video out there so it can pick up on popularity in an asynchronous manner.
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2021-01-06T09:58:13Z ralt: dim: fyi this came out yesterday https://www.timmons.dev/posts/static-executables-with-sbcl.html
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2021-01-06T09:58:41Z dim: thanks!
2021-01-06T09:59:06Z beach: ralt: Can you give a quick explanation of the purpose of this work, other than putting SBCL inside the kernel?
2021-01-06T09:59:39Z ralt: beach: this one is unrelated to the kernel, see the first paragraph under "Background"
2021-01-06T09:59:52Z beach: Thanks!
2021-01-06T09:59:54Z ralt: and it's done by etimmons, not me :)
2021-01-06T10:00:14Z beach: Yes, I know.  But you mentioned that the work is related.
2021-01-06T10:01:08Z dim: the context I have for such tools in general is how to deliver an application binary to users who don't care that it's been written in Common Lisp
2021-01-06T10:01:16Z beach: ralt: OK, got it.  Thanks!
2021-01-06T10:01:27Z beach: Makes sense.
2021-01-06T10:01:38Z ralt: dim: that's exactly why I pinged you, given pgloader
2021-01-06T10:01:39Z dim: we seem in the CL community to be quite hermetic, we seem to avoid delivering what we do to people who are not CL users/hackers themselves
2021-01-06T10:01:55Z beach: ... but then they are all going to complain that "Hello world!" takes tens of megabytes.
2021-01-06T10:01:58Z dim: we're missing a lot of infra to make it simple to use software written in CL as a non-CL or a non-programmer end user
2021-01-06T10:02:06Z ralt: agreed. that's why I made linux-packaging.
2021-01-06T10:02:16Z dim: beach: not anymore, see Go builds and Rust and others, people are getting used to it
2021-01-06T10:02:25Z beach: Oh, good! :)
2021-01-06T10:02:29Z dim: ralt: +1, thanks for that, I need to dive into it someday
2021-01-06T10:02:54Z ralt: dim: to be fair, Go and Rust builds are a couple of MBs, not tens :P
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2021-01-06T10:03:03Z ralt: but yes, people care less.
2021-01-06T10:03:12Z dim: well then compare to docker images maybe
2021-01-06T10:03:36Z ralt: hehehe
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2021-01-06T10:04:08Z dim: I am nowadays working on a tool named pg_auto_failover, written in C, the main binary is 1MB large, and the minimum docker image based on debian that I could make is around 280MB
2021-01-06T10:04:45Z ralt: does pg work in alpine those days?
2021-01-06T10:04:59Z ralt: alpine docker images are ~6MB iirc
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2021-01-06T10:05:38Z dim: yeah I could use alpine too, but then it's not the same libc and reasons-reasons, I did not
2021-01-06T10:05:56Z ralt: fair enough
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2021-01-06T10:07:11Z ralt: speaking of postgresql, I recently (a few months ago) found out about multicorn
2021-01-06T10:07:26Z ralt: I so want to redo it with ECL.
2021-01-06T10:08:08Z ralt: maybe you could rewrite pg_auto_failover in Lisp :P
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2021-01-06T11:02:13Z dim: my colleagues and the Postgres community at large would not appreciate that, even Python was out: we want to make it dead simple to install and use the product, and focus on having the same set of dependencies (build and run-time) as Postgres itself
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2021-01-06T11:10:22Z pyc: I am using SBCL. I don't need to install Quicklisp to get "uiop". Am I right about this? (require "uiop") seems to work for me. Is this guaranteed to work in any SBCL implementation?
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2021-01-06T11:10:53Z phoe: pyc: SBCL bundles ASDF and UIOP
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2021-01-06T11:11:09Z pyc: phoe: thanks!
2021-01-06T11:11:47Z phoe: but there's a question of which version it bundles!
2021-01-06T11:12:00Z pyc: phoe: how do I figure the version number?
2021-01-06T11:12:23Z ralt: (asdf:asdf-version) I think?
2021-01-06T11:12:24Z jackdaniel: mind that not putting "uiop" in :depends-on of your system may break executables that are not produced with save-lisp-and-die
2021-01-06T11:13:02Z jackdaniel: also fact that it is preloaded means, that if you want to bundle uiop with your sources, you must download it manually (because asdf won't complain that the system is not present, hence quicklisp won't download it)
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2021-01-06T11:19:33Z dim: ralt: do you know if the method outlined in https://www.timmons.dev/posts/static-executables-with-sbcl.html would be compliant with static-linking openssl and sqlite, and maybe other code?
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2021-01-06T11:20:43Z dim: ralt: I would also like to see PL/CL same way we have PL/Python in Postgres ; and I think it's going to be more complex, because ideally we might want to have a single CL image running in the background in the Postgres process tree, and each Postgres backend would have its own CL thread that can communicate with the central image application / objects
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2021-01-06T11:34:51Z VincentVega: beach: I think it's just the reality of the language and how you accept it. A value in question is treated in boolean terms: as nil or non-nil. That non-nil happens to be treated as t is just the fact of the language. Quirky? Maybe. Surprising? Even newcomers are doing it.
2021-01-06T11:35:01Z VincentVega: beach: And the nature of a surprise is, you see it once, and it isn't a surprise anymore.
2021-01-06T11:35:15Z VincentVega: beach: Moreover, I would say that judging lisp code with its custom dsls based on the surprise factor is a bit unfair in the first place. I will go as far as to say it is counter to lisp's philosophy. Macros let you get succinctness. If succinctness buys you power of expression at the cost of immediate understandability, then you just learn how a
2021-01-06T11:35:16Z VincentVega: construct works and that's a positive tradeoff in the long run.
2021-01-06T11:35:24Z VincentVega: beach: "The NIL value is not a Boolean": not what the hyperspec says "The type boolean contains the symbols t and nil, which represent true and false, respectively."
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2021-01-06T11:39:04Z phoe: VincentVega: it's not a question of what the language accepts but a question of what the programmer expects
2021-01-06T11:40:14Z VincentVega: phoe: yes, this is what I account for
2021-01-06T11:40:19Z phoe: NIL is a symbol, a boolean, a list, a sequence, and a T all at once, and code that provides appropriate operations on that help fix the resulting confusion
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2021-01-06T11:42:44Z VincentVega: I don't think there's any confusion there. It's a question of habit.
2021-01-06T11:43:44Z VincentVega: My point is, if a programmer writes in a language, then a programmer has to come to terms with what a language can do if he doesn't want to be working against it.
2021-01-06T11:45:54Z Nilby: Lisp seems to make it so I'm only really working against myself (and time and physics).
2021-01-06T11:46:18Z phoe: yes, and there's also the question of the social layer atop a language
2021-01-06T11:46:25Z VincentVega: I mean, would you seriously prefer (or (null a) (null b) (null c)) to (and a b c)?
2021-01-06T11:47:01Z phoe: depends on context :D
2021-01-06T11:47:25Z phoe: the social layer is why e.g. some C++ projects disallow exceptions even though they're, in theory, a part of standard C++
2021-01-06T11:47:26Z jackdaniel: stylistic suggestions from norvig's style guide are just that - suggestions
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2021-01-06T11:48:05Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: you may find this amusing: https://ashwinram.org/1986/01/28/a-short-ballad-dedicated-to-the-growth-of-programs/
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2021-01-06T11:48:43Z VincentVega: suggestions can be unfounded at times
2021-01-06T11:48:47Z VincentVega: thanks I'll read it
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2021-01-06T11:49:55Z jmercouris: I'm using this library: https://github.com/andy128k/cl-gobject-introspection
2021-01-06T11:49:56Z VincentVega: phoe: if there's any social layer to this issue it all, I am pretty sure that you will find a lot more (when value ...)'s than unless nulls
2021-01-06T11:49:58Z jackdaniel: most remarks I've found in the norvig's document had a very good rationale behind them - you may disagree, still you should take it into consideration
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2021-01-06T11:50:10Z jmercouris: I'm looking at the example at the very top " (gir:nget *gtk* "WindowType" :toplevel)"
2021-01-06T11:50:33Z jmercouris: how do they know that WindowType exists? Is there a way to list the arguments that 'new for class Window accepts?
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2021-01-06T11:51:33Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: i am not criticizing their whole document, i haven't read it, just this one thing i happened to see mentioned here yesterday
2021-01-06T11:51:59Z jmercouris: nget-desc?
2021-01-06T11:52:37Z jackdaniel: I'm not saying you do, I'm suggesting that you may benefit from reading rationale behind this particular one thing (and then disagree :) I personally agree with you, that there is no harm in writing (when foo …)
2021-01-06T11:52:50Z jackdaniel: that said I find myself usually using (when-let … …)
2021-01-06T11:55:20Z VincentVega: If I saw the rationale on it, I would've read it, just seemed like a slide with bullet-points to me. But yes, I'll probably be reading up on it : )
2021-01-06T11:57:32Z jackdaniel: I've got curious myself and tried to find this particular advice in the document, but I've failed. the only part is that you should be specific (and, or for boolean value only, when/unless for statements, if for expressions and cond for multi-branch statement/expression
2021-01-06T11:59:20Z VincentVega: I see. As for and/or thing, by the way, the (and (numberp x) (cos x)) isn't even a real example unless cos can suddenly yield a nil.
2021-01-06T11:59:40Z VincentVega: like, common, they made this stuff up, just for the sake of a slide
2021-01-06T12:01:02Z jackdaniel: I saw code like this, the first clause in and is to ensure the proper type, and the second is called for the value
2021-01-06T12:01:21Z v3ga: ...
2021-01-06T12:01:30Z jackdaniel: i.e (let ((name (and window (window-name "foo"))) …)
2021-01-06T12:01:44Z jmercouris: s/common/come on
2021-01-06T12:01:56Z VincentVega: actually yes, thinking about it, (and condition (error ..)) i did a couple of times too. well, fine.
2021-01-06T12:02:46Z jackdaniel: my example should be if, and your example should be when :)
2021-01-06T12:03:12Z jackdaniel: either way, time to get to double buffering in mcclim, see you later
2021-01-06T12:03:36Z VincentVega: the need for specificity of when/if i do agree with
2021-01-06T12:03:45Z VincentVega: yeah, c ya : )
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2021-01-06T12:16:11Z ralt: dim not sure about openssl, etimmons might know. For sqlite I don't see it as hard, at worse you can compile it as part of your build.
2021-01-06T12:17:11Z ralt: I did that here https://gitlab.com/ralt/ballish if you look at the .asd file
2021-01-06T12:18:22Z ralt: (so it's already doable with asdf:static-program-op)
2021-01-06T12:20:13Z ralt: The lisp in postgres thing is interesting... I wonder if you need pl/lisp at all.
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2021-01-06T12:20:34Z ralt: Like what if it exposes a swank server
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2021-01-06T12:23:48Z ralt: This sounds like doable pretty quickly with ECL even
2021-01-06T12:28:12Z etimmons: dim: I have used that method with openssl. Haven't yet extensively tested it, but no issues so far.
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2021-01-06T12:32:30Z beach: VincentVega: You keep referring to language semantics, whereas I am talking about software engineering and maintainability.  As you know if you are a professional programmer, the language you should use for good maintainability is a tiny subset of the semantically acceptable language.
2021-01-06T12:33:46Z beach: VincentVega: But I guess you must have way more experience than Pitman and Norvig.  I certainly don't, so I rely on their wisdom go guide things like that.
2021-01-06T12:34:44Z beach: What phoe also said.
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2021-01-06T12:39:48Z beach: Also, even though I have seen constructs such as (WHEN EVENT ...) more than once, I am still not only surprised when I see such a construct.  I have to pause several seconds to figure out what it means.  So I seem to correspond to the people they are referring to in their document.
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2021-01-06T12:42:12Z beach: VincentVega: You are of course free to write whatever you like.  But when people show their code here in order to get feedback on it, I will continue to point out that such constructs are considered not so great in the eyes of highly experienced and very knowledgeable programmers such as Norvig and Pitman.
2021-01-06T12:42:24Z dim: etimmons: thanks, might try it sometime!
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2021-01-06T12:43:27Z jackdaniel: beach: I've mentioned that above that I couldn't find that particular advice in the document, do you happen to remember the page it could be found on?
2021-01-06T12:43:51Z beach: That precise example is probably not in there.
2021-01-06T12:44:42Z jackdaniel: OK
2021-01-06T12:44:45Z beach: But I know that the reason I jump when I see it is the same reason I jump when I see the (counter-) examples on page 13.
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2021-01-06T12:46:28Z jackdaniel: it could be argued (and that would be still not contradict the document), that using generalized booleans as a test in whend/unless is still specific; I gather that you disagree with that
2021-01-06T12:46:37Z jackdaniel: s/whend/when/
2021-01-06T12:47:12Z phoe: when/unless are a bit less affected by NOT NULL than e.g. IF and COND
2021-01-06T12:47:40Z phoe: because (when/unless (not (null x)) ...) == (unless/when (null x) ...)
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2021-01-06T12:49:34Z ralt: jmercouris: I would assume you'd need to look at gobject docs
2021-01-06T12:49:50Z beach: Here is how I see that particular example.  A function is called that can return an event or a default value that is not an event.  You want to do something only when an event is returned.  You then have two choices.  You check whether you have an event and you say (WHEN (EVENTP EVENT) ...) or something similar, or you check for the default and you say (UNLESS (DEFAULT-VALUE-P EVENT) ...).  It is a coincidence that DEFAULT-VALUE-P and
2021-01-06T12:49:50Z beach: NULL happen to be the same in this case.
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2021-01-06T12:51:00Z beach: Yet another way of seeing it is to notice how much you have to change your code if the function did not return NIL as the default value but instead, say :NOT-AN-EVENT.
2021-01-06T12:51:32Z ralt: jmercouris: sorry, gtk docs https://valadoc.org/gtk+-3.0/Gtk.WindowType.html
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2021-01-06T12:53:59Z beach: The opinion that can be summarized as "anything the language specification allows is OK to write" is very strange to me.  Perhaps someone did not say it that literally, but many of the opinions I see boil down to that.
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2021-01-06T12:54:48Z VincentVega: beach: On the contrary, I mostly based my opinion on the philosophy behind the language + the fact that while succinctness costs you "surprise", the surprise wears off.
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2021-01-06T12:55:16Z VincentVega: beach: Appeal to authority? Man, no need to get all caustic about it : )
2021-01-06T12:55:46Z beach: Not authority.  Experience.
2021-01-06T12:55:58Z jackdaniel: I agree that when you may be specific with eventp it is clearly better; by mentioning generalized booleans I've meant a difference between (when (not (null X)) …) versus (when X …)
2021-01-06T12:56:00Z VincentVega: right
2021-01-06T12:56:01Z beach: I am not going to continue this argument, because I have said what I want so many times in the past.  It is getting boring.
2021-01-06T12:56:09Z VincentVega: agreed there
2021-01-06T12:56:30Z beach: jackdaniel: The alternative is (unless (null X) ...) not (when (not (null X))).
2021-01-06T12:56:36Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: I recommend you to read some SICL code written by beach - it is very clearly written and easy to read; that may be a good indicator that it is not appeal to authority but rather a practical advice
2021-01-06T12:56:47Z jackdaniel: beach: ah, OK
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2021-01-06T13:01:17Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: I hear you.
2021-01-06T13:11:39Z jmercouris: ralt: thanks Florian, that's what I've been doing
2021-01-06T13:11:48Z jmercouris: ralt: just wondering if there was a built-in introspection mechansim for listing...
2021-01-06T13:12:23Z jmercouris: I've had luck with slime-inspect-presentation-at-point on the result of (gir:nget *gtk* "Xyz" 'method)
2021-01-06T13:12:44Z jmercouris: (gir:nget *gtk* "Xyz" 'method) returns a closure of all things :-D
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2021-01-06T13:52:24Z pyc: just like there is uiop:read-file-string is there an equivalent of uiop:write-file-string?
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2021-01-06T13:55:27Z phoe: alexandria:write-string-into-file
2021-01-06T13:56:46Z phoe: there's uiop:call-with-output-file
2021-01-06T13:57:25Z phoe: I assume you can (call-with-output-file pathname (alexandria:curry #'princ string))
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2021-01-06T13:59:12Z Xach uses setf for that sometimes
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2021-01-06T13:59:24Z phoe: setf?
2021-01-06T13:59:32Z Xach: (setf (file-contents file) data) or similar
2021-01-06T14:00:10Z phoe: there is no #'(SETF UIOP:READ-FILE-STRING) though
2021-01-06T14:00:20Z phoe: hmmm
2021-01-06T14:00:33Z Xach: Very true. I define my own as needed.
2021-01-06T14:02:50Z ralt: Never thought of using setf for that
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2021-01-06T14:06:01Z Xach: i remember the discussion of a unix interface that did stuff like (setf (uid user) 42) and did the work underneath to update the system to reflect what's desired, rather than getting hung up on what might be possible only through simple operations
2021-01-06T14:06:03Z pyc: alexandria does not be present in SBCL but uiop is present. does alexandria need to be installed separately?
2021-01-06T14:06:11Z Xach: pyc: yes
2021-01-06T14:06:16Z pyc: thanks
2021-01-06T14:06:43Z Xach: UIOP is a separate library that is provided with sbcl, but alexandria is a separate library that is not
2021-01-06T14:07:18Z ralt: Well for file operations I'm rather concerned on memory usage
2021-01-06T14:07:30Z ralt: You know, memory is typically much more bounded than disk
2021-01-06T14:07:46Z Xach: setting the file contents is much simpler than changing a user uid but it did inspire me to think about presenting straightforward interfaces to possibly complex and multi-step operations.
2021-01-06T14:07:51Z ralt: For (uid user) that's actually a pretty good idea
2021-01-06T14:08:29Z ralt: In my abstraction world, a file is a stream, and you can't setf a stream
2021-01-06T14:08:39Z Xach: and also that SETF doesn't have to mutate a binding or an in-memory thing
2021-01-06T14:09:38Z phoe: (setf pi 3.2d0) ;; for Lisp code running in Indiana
2021-01-06T14:09:57Z Xach: ralt: a disk is a two dimensional array of bits, 8 by 8,796,093,022,208!
2021-01-06T14:10:50Z phoe: ralt: (defclass file () ...) (defmethod contents ((file)) ...) (defmethod (setf contents) (new-value (file file)) ...)
2021-01-06T14:11:23Z phoe: in this world, a file is an instance, and you can call a generic function with it as an argument
2021-01-06T14:11:44Z ralt: Yes, sure. My point is just that typically, you don't fit all your disk in your memory, so it's easier to treat files as streams
2021-01-06T14:12:04Z phoe: why fit them in memory
2021-01-06T14:12:21Z phoe: or rather
2021-01-06T14:12:28Z phoe: why need to fit one kind of memory in another kind of memory
2021-01-06T14:12:34Z ralt: If you do a setf content, it means you have content in-memory
2021-01-06T14:12:37Z phoe: no
2021-01-06T14:12:46Z phoe: it means whatever #'(setf content) does under the hood
2021-01-06T14:13:04Z ralt: Of course, you don't _have to_
2021-01-06T14:13:15Z phoe: that's encapsulation - you don't need to care whether the real stuff is in RAM, hard disk, over the network, or hand-calligraphied onto a piece of paper
2021-01-06T14:13:24Z ralt: Just like you don't have to have a disk bigger than your ram
2021-01-06T14:13:32Z ralt: I'm talking about the typical case, though
2021-01-06T14:13:55Z phoe: all you care is that #'CONTENTS returns it for you as a string and that #'(SETF CONTENTS), after accepting a string, modifies the state of this thing so that future calls to #'CONTENTS return the new string
2021-01-06T14:14:02Z phoe: s/all you care/all you need to care/
2021-01-06T14:14:04Z ralt: You made me remember something fun
2021-01-06T14:14:25Z ralt: Encapsulation is great until reality comes down to punch you in the face
2021-01-06T14:15:11Z phoe: I'm not saying that encapsulating all the things is a good idea
2021-01-06T14:15:26Z phoe: I'm just saying that SETF is not required to operate solely on RAM contents
2021-01-06T14:15:41Z phoe: or even solely on the contents of your machine's volatile and non-volatile memory
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2021-01-06T14:17:25Z phoe: I imagine that you could (setf (system::cpu-fan-speed 0) 300) to set the fan speed of the 0th fan of your machine to 300 RPM
2021-01-06T14:17:25Z Nilby: a lot of setf'able OS things require root, I haven't fixed the forker yet, and I don't even know how to do it on windows.
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2021-01-06T14:18:22Z phoe: all you need to do on Windows is to exploit your way into kernelspace and then use it to kexec() Linux
2021-01-06T14:18:30Z phoe hides
2021-01-06T14:20:31Z Nilby: if wsl was default installed, i'd consider it
2021-01-06T14:21:06Z dim: it's available by default in the windows store on all windows 10 devices, I think, right?
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2021-01-06T17:31:30Z failproofshark: i apologize if this has been asked before but is there an html parsing library for CL similar to python's beautiful soup?
2021-01-06T17:32:01Z failproofshark: i asked in #lispweb before but i'm not sure if it was answered as I had to log out before a reply was given (and I don't know if that channel has readable logs)
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2021-01-06T17:34:58Z phoe: failproofshark: XML parsers exist
2021-01-06T17:35:02Z phoe: I use Plump
2021-01-06T17:35:25Z ecm: failproofshark: you can use any xml parser for html parsing
2021-01-06T17:35:32Z phoe: it seems to do what you want... you can then use e.g. lquery to inspect the resulting DOM
2021-01-06T17:35:58Z ecm: plump is nice, haven't looked into any other ones
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2021-01-06T17:42:24Z travv0: I’ll “third” the plump recommendation
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2021-01-06T18:06:35Z jasom:  failproofshark I don't know if it has readable logs either, but I said "plump" in that channel after you logged out just in case
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2021-01-06T18:29:27Z nij`: I try to customize stumpwm, but get stuck while I'm importing packages into my config. The error is given here.. https://bpa.st/BXOA
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2021-01-06T18:30:29Z phoe: well, the error is self-explaining
2021-01-06T18:30:43Z phoe: something is trying to load an ASD file and that file doesn't exist
2021-01-06T18:30:46Z nij`: Yeah, but when I interact with it from SLIME, it doesn't happen @@
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2021-01-06T18:31:54Z phoe: hmmmm
2021-01-06T18:32:12Z phoe: (asdf:system-source-directory :cl-unicode)
2021-01-06T18:32:15Z phoe: what does it say in slime?
2021-01-06T18:33:26Z nij`: #P"/home/nij/.+PLUGS/Local/.quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-unicode-20190521-git/"
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2021-01-06T18:35:05Z phoe: so it correctly resolves the system location
2021-01-06T18:35:13Z phoe: whereas stumpwm doesn't
2021-01-06T18:35:23Z phoe: I wonder why
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2021-01-06T18:37:19Z nij`: cl-launch.asd is the only file presented in /usr/share/common-lisp/systems
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2021-01-06T18:39:36Z phoe: likely your stumpwm doesn't have the Quicklisp ASDF directories configured
2021-01-06T18:39:45Z phoe: don't know how exactly to solve it
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2021-01-06T18:53:08Z travv0: nij if I remember correctly, I had that same error way back when I first set up stumpwm. when I’m back at a computer I’ll check my config to see if I can tell what I did to get it working
2021-01-06T18:53:42Z nij: travv0: phoe: thank you folks :D
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2021-01-06T19:02:05Z jasom: Someone on reddit asked about mixing C++ and Lisp, with the example of doing a GUI in C++.  I couldn't quickly find a simple example, so I wrote one: https://git.sr.ht/~jasom/qt-lisp-gui/tree
2021-01-06T19:02:12Z nij: I used pacman to get stumpwm, and this seems to be why.
2021-01-06T19:02:34Z nij: I will remove it and compile from scratch.
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2021-01-06T19:02:56Z jasom: nij: no need to do that, you can just load setup.lisp in your stumpwm config, right?
2021-01-06T19:03:05Z nij: Yeah I think so @@
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2021-01-06T19:03:57Z nij: lemme try
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2021-01-06T19:06:30Z nij: jasom: do you mean (load "/home/nij/.quicklisp/setup.lisp")?        (ps my quicklisp root is  $HOME/.quicklisp)
2021-01-06T19:08:24Z jasom: nij: yup
2021-01-06T19:08:37Z nij: I did that @@ but it doesnt' work
2021-01-06T19:12:14Z nij: I think the way that will resolve everything is to understand how sbcl and quicklisp really work.
2021-01-06T19:12:27Z nij: Any account with details?
2021-01-06T19:12:57Z Fade: in your environment, what is the value of $SBCL_HOME ?
2021-01-06T19:12:58Z nij: I have been relying on my package manager too much, and it's only going to kill more of my time. I want to start learning from scratch.
2021-01-06T19:13:21Z nij: Fade: It outputs nothing.
2021-01-06T19:13:31Z nij: $ echo $SBCL_HOME => ""
2021-01-06T19:13:49Z Fade: do you have an .sbclrc?
2021-01-06T19:14:20Z jasom: oh, I just looked at the error message; you'll need to reinitialize the ASDF package registry probably
2021-01-06T19:14:42Z jasom: nij: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems
2021-01-06T19:14:44Z nij: Yep! file content is here: https://bpa.st/ZNZA
2021-01-06T19:14:45Z Fade: anyhow, we discussed this in #stumpwm
2021-01-06T19:15:53Z nij: OK. It seems I need to read the manuals of ASDF, quicklisp, and sbcl.
2021-01-06T19:16:24Z Fade: well, your stump was built in the system directories, and it's using a lot of pathing from that environment.
2021-01-06T19:16:34Z nij: Yeah. It's all messed up.
2021-01-06T19:16:36Z Fade: I've never tried doing it that way.
2021-01-06T19:16:44Z nij: Nope. I shouldn't have.
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2021-01-06T19:16:59Z Fade: but your quicklisp setup is also non-standard, so you have many moving pieces at odds with each other.
2021-01-06T19:17:14Z nij: Yeah. I should move my stuff out from $HOME.
2021-01-06T19:17:26Z Fade: well...
2021-01-06T19:17:27Z nij: $HOME is only for programs' configs.
2021-01-06T19:17:36Z nij: I just wanted it to look clean @@
2021-01-06T19:17:43Z Fade: i dunno if that's the takeaway I'd take, but it's your time and system. :)
2021-01-06T19:17:47Z Fade: bbl
2021-01-06T19:17:57Z nij: :D Thanks Fade
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2021-01-06T20:18:14Z failproofshark: thanks ill try out plump!
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2021-01-06T21:20:33Z etimmons: ralt: I have a second version of the patch that requires only a relink of the runtime to make it static and the core can be shared between the dynamic and static runtimes
2021-01-06T21:20:56Z etimmons: I'll post it once I test it a bit more. But it's passing smoke tests at the moment
2021-01-06T21:20:59Z ralt: wooo
2021-01-06T21:21:03Z ralt: amazing
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2021-01-06T21:46:00Z Cesdo: Hi all
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2021-01-06T21:48:15Z frodef: hello
2021-01-06T21:50:14Z Cesdo: Merry Christmas to everyone!
2021-01-06T21:51:02Z frodef: Cesdo: a bit early, isn't it? :)
2021-01-06T21:51:39Z Cesdo: No, it's 12:51 am already
2021-01-06T21:52:05Z Cesdo: 7 January starts)
2021-01-06T21:52:18Z frodef: early in the year..?
2021-01-06T21:55:42Z lotuseater: oh maybe it's celebrated there on 7th January
2021-01-06T21:55:45Z Cesdo: frodef: I don't know where are you from, but I'm from Russia. We have Russian Orthodox Church, and we celebrate Christmas every 7 January)
2021-01-06T21:56:11Z Cesdo: lotuseater: yeah!
2021-01-06T21:56:13Z fe[nl]ix: oh yes, the Eastern Christmas
2021-01-06T21:56:19Z lotuseater: then Merry Christmas to you too Cesdo :)
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2021-01-06T21:56:44Z Cesdo: lotuseater: thanks))
2021-01-06T21:57:19Z lotuseater: i had something like that in mind, here in Germany we call it "Heilige drei Könige", the day when the wise men arrived at Bethlehem
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2021-01-06T21:58:41Z frodef: Cesdo: I see, merry christmas then!
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2021-01-06T21:59:20Z Cesdo: lotuseater: oh, it's interesting))
2021-01-06T21:59:26Z moon-child: happy boxing day y'all!
2021-01-06T21:59:39Z frodef: Cesdo: here we wrapped up christmas about two weeks ago :)
2021-01-06T21:59:45Z Cesdo: frodef: thanks)
2021-01-06T22:01:27Z Cesdo: frodef: where are you from?
2021-01-06T22:02:24Z Cesdo: moon-child: Is English football paid to watch in your country?
2021-01-06T22:02:49Z moon-child: I have no idea
2021-01-06T22:03:24Z frodef: Cesdo: norway
2021-01-06T22:05:21Z Cesdo: moon-child: Ehm... Boxing-day is in English Premier League, isn't it?
2021-01-06T22:05:24Z jasom: frodef: Last day of christmas here for Lutherans; Latin-rite Catholics get 3 more days
2021-01-06T22:05:53Z moon-child: Cesdo: idk in england but in canada boxing day is just the day after christmas
2021-01-06T22:06:38Z Cesdo: frodef: Oh, Linus was born not far from your country))
2021-01-06T22:07:41Z Cesdo: moon-child: oh, it's interesting. Why it's called boxing day??
2021-01-06T22:08:20Z Cesdo: moon-child: I thought, you're football fan))
2021-01-06T22:08:41Z jasom: Cesdo: OED says it's because servants would receive a Christmas box.
2021-01-06T22:08:53Z frodef: Cesdo: closer to yours, actually..
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2021-01-06T22:10:14Z lotuseater: so now we had just two of some slightly offtopic stuff: religion and sports :)
2021-01-06T22:10:52Z lotuseater: now politics and it's complete. but some quote states "Common Lisp is not art, it's politics."
2021-01-06T22:11:45Z ralt: I mean
2021-01-06T22:12:02Z ralt: just open any news channel if you want some politics
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2021-01-06T22:12:20Z ralt: you know, with people breaking into the Capitol in Washington, DC
2021-01-06T22:12:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Can someone help me with some Javascript?
2021-01-06T22:12:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2021-01-06T22:12:53Z lotuseater: no I'm not much into it, too wibbli-wobbly-tiny-winy
2021-01-06T22:13:01Z fe[nl]ix: all off-topic :)
2021-01-06T22:13:09Z lotuseater: fiddlerwoaroof: same with JS :D
2021-01-06T22:13:14Z fe[nl]ix: let's return to Lispy things
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2021-01-06T23:28:28Z White_Flame: beach:  interesting paper.  My musing along such lines in the past was to have multiple entry points into the function, but that explodes out in too many combinations to optimize for
2021-01-06T23:29:20Z White_Flame: customizing it per use is probably much more practical.  It could be advantageous for cache purposes to have multiple call sites share the same thunk, though that would make it a call instead of jump
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2021-01-06T23:32:14Z White_Flame: btw, I thought the concept itself was very easily presented in the paper, but again that could be because I've spent time thinking about this in the past as well
2021-01-06T23:34:55Z phoe: I know that beach was exploring the concept of multiple entry points
2021-01-06T23:37:11Z White_Flame: I also enjoyed the "We would like to thank."  Nice simple blanket statement ;)
2021-01-06T23:37:18Z phoe: :D
2021-01-06T23:37:26Z phoe: I giggled at that, too
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2021-01-07T04:03:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-01-07T04:16:40Z beach: White_Flame: Thanks.  It is probably not worthwhile to attempt to share snippets.  I mean, the way things work now is that all call sites essentially do the same thing with duplicated code.
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2021-01-07T06:57:03Z stargazesparkle: Hello there
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2021-01-07T07:01:05Z beach: Hello stargazesparkle.
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2021-01-07T07:02:06Z beach: stargazesparkle: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2021-01-07T07:02:20Z contrapunctus: stargazesparkle: General Kenobi! 😏
2021-01-07T07:06:51Z stargazesparkle: I know it is late but if someone could look over the file that I am about to link to and clue me in as to why  it throws the error I am going to link?
2021-01-07T07:06:51Z stargazesparkle: Code: https://github.com/StargazeSparkle/spellcheck/blob/main/src/mediawiki.lisp
2021-01-07T07:06:51Z stargazesparkle: Error: https://gist.github.com/StargazeSparkle/1b94a91ce6cfcd582650ce11e91a00e1
2021-01-07T07:07:20Z stargazesparkle: beach yes I am new both to CL and to IRC and I am not entirely sure that I know what it is that I am doing
2021-01-07T07:07:21Z beach: Late?
2021-01-07T07:07:31Z stargazesparkle: Sorry I live in the US
2021-01-07T07:09:26Z beach: That error seems to be specific to Drakma, so I guess you need someone who knows it.
2021-01-07T07:09:54Z beach: stargazesparkle: And your code has a very strange layout.
2021-01-07T07:10:18Z stargazesparkle: I don't know still how lisp actually... works
2021-01-07T07:10:36Z stargazesparkle: I am just trying to piece things together from bits and pieces that I can find online
2021-01-07T07:10:56Z beach: It might not be a good idea to learn it by using an advanced library, but that's just what I think.
2021-01-07T07:11:35Z stargazesparkle: Is http stuff considered advanced?
2021-01-07T07:12:19Z beach: Well, it's a third-party library that seems to be using standard classes and generic functions, so it is not newbie material exactly.
2021-01-07T07:13:06Z beach: So I see at least one problem...
2021-01-07T07:13:40Z beach: You probably expect USERNAME in  ("lgname" . USERNAME) to be the value of the variable.
2021-01-07T07:13:57Z beach: But, you are quoting the entire list '(("action" ...)), so it is not evaluated.
2021-01-07T07:14:12Z beach: Therefore you have the symbol USERNAME rather than the value of it as a variable.
2021-01-07T07:14:36Z stargazesparkle: Ooooh
2021-01-07T07:14:51Z beach: So, yes, if you don't yet know how quoting works, this kind of application could be a tad too advanced.
2021-01-07T07:15:21Z stargazesparkle: I can use a quasiquote to remedy this can't I
2021-01-07T07:15:34Z beach: Probably, yes.
2021-01-07T07:15:44Z stargazesparkle: `(("action" .  ,username))
2021-01-07T07:16:04Z beach: Yeah, something like that.
2021-01-07T07:16:41Z stargazesparkle: Hmm... I just got a new laptop so I will have to figure out how to install lisp on it but as soon as I do I will give that a go and see if it works as I expect it to.
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2021-01-07T07:17:09Z beach: You also need to work on the layout of your code if you plan to expose it for feedback.
2021-01-07T07:17:34Z stargazesparkle: I don't know how to lay it out better
2021-01-07T07:17:51Z beach: You use Emacs+SLIME and it will do it for you.
2021-01-07T07:17:53Z stargazesparkle: I looked at some stuff on github to see the file structure and tried to copy it as much as I could
2021-01-07T07:18:22Z beach: Your indentation is not conventional, and you have strange spaces everywhere.
2021-01-07T07:18:50Z beach: And you have a useless PROGN in your DEFUN body.
2021-01-07T07:18:51Z stargazesparkle: Oh yeah I uh... tried to mimic how paredit handles clojure
2021-01-07T07:18:57Z beach: DEFUN has an implicit PROGN.
2021-01-07T07:19:03Z stargazesparkle: O
2021-01-07T07:19:53Z stargazesparkle: I don't use emacs I must confess
2021-01-07T07:20:00Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.
2021-01-07T07:20:01Z stargazesparkle: I have been using visual studio code
2021-01-07T07:20:13Z beach: Then you will probably hate your experience with Common Lisp.
2021-01-07T07:20:30Z stargazesparkle: Well it sort of has been... progressing
2021-01-07T07:20:40Z stargazesparkle: I am getting somewhere that is for sure
2021-01-07T07:21:24Z stargazesparkle: Emacs might be worth a second look
2021-01-07T07:21:26Z mfiano: Common Lisp is not a language you just type, though.
2021-01-07T07:21:29Z beach: So Common Lisp programmers rely on indentation to understand the structure of the code.  If your indentation is off, a person reading your code can not easily understand the code, so I for one stop reading.
2021-01-07T07:21:42Z mfiano: It is designed for interactive use. And that interactive environment, is Emacs.
2021-01-07T07:21:53Z beach: stargazesparkle: You are essentially asking people to count parentheses in order to help you.
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2021-01-07T07:22:29Z stargazesparkle: I will try to get better at the formatting
2021-01-07T07:22:56Z stargazesparkle: I was laying it out in a way that I thought was clearer but I guess that is not the case
2021-01-07T07:23:12Z mfiano: That's not the way to get better at Common Lisp.
2021-01-07T07:23:46Z stargazesparkle: I am not entirely sure how to get better at common lisp truth be told
2021-01-07T07:24:10Z mfiano: Emacs does the formatting for you, and the formatting depends on the running state of the image. Emacs is your interaction with that image.
2021-01-07T07:24:13Z beach: stargazesparkle: Well, you see, if you do that manually and you make a single mistake, like the lack of one space before (mediawiki...., then the person reading your code can not trust the indentation.
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2021-01-07T07:24:56Z mfiano: Common Lisp isn't just another language to type and send to a compiler. Emacs hooks into the language itself.
2021-01-07T07:25:12Z beach: stargazesparkle: That person will react by thinking that you probably did the layout manually, so in order to really understand the code, he or she would have to count parentheses, which is a lot of work, and very error prone.
2021-01-07T07:25:56Z stargazesparkle: So you basically have to use emacs
2021-01-07T07:26:46Z mfiano: Anywhere SLIME or Sly runs will have basic support, but for the full interactive experience, SLIME or Sly for Emacs is the only way to go
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2021-01-07T07:27:31Z mfiano: There is just no other way. CL is a very different language
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2021-01-07T07:30:57Z stargazesparkle: How is spacemacs?
2021-01-07T07:31:18Z stargazesparkle: Can I get that and configure it for common lisp?
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2021-01-07T07:31:27Z mfiano: THat is just Emacs, so why not
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2021-01-07T07:34:13Z stargazesparkle: So if I open my project in emacs will it automatically fix my formatting?
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2021-01-07T07:34:27Z stargazesparkle: Or is there a command that I have to run first
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2021-01-07T07:35:39Z mfiano: No
2021-01-07T07:35:47Z beach: Yeah, you can do C-x h and then C-M-\ or so I think.  My fingers know it, but not my brain.
2021-01-07T07:35:48Z mfiano: You must install SLIME or Sly and connect to the process
2021-01-07T07:37:02Z stargazesparkle: What uh
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2021-01-07T07:37:08Z stargazesparkle: What process am I connecting to
2021-01-07T07:37:13Z mfiano: Indentation of macros requires that the definitions of such macros be loaded into the image, and Sly/SLIME connected to that image.
2021-01-07T07:37:17Z mfiano: M-x slime
2021-01-07T07:37:56Z mfiano: I suggest reading the SLIME (or Sly) manual.
2021-01-07T07:37:56Z beach: stargazesparkle: Seriously, it is worth the effort.  You have an interactive command loop (the REPL) and all kinds of support from the Common Lisp system this way.  Like I said, without such support, you will not like your experience with the language.
2021-01-07T07:38:31Z mfiano: You will be like the countless others that quit without properly learning the language.
2021-01-07T07:38:51Z mfiano: Speaking of, you should probably read PRactical Common Lisp (free book) before you try writing Common Lisp code.
2021-01-07T07:39:33Z stargazesparkle: If I end up quitting common lisp I will still probably stick with clojure
2021-01-07T07:39:39Z stargazesparkle: But I would like to give it a fair shot
2021-01-07T07:40:19Z beach: Try to watch some YouTube video.  Look for "live coding common lisp".
2021-01-07T07:40:27Z beach: You'll get an idea of how people work.
2021-01-07T07:40:54Z stargazesparkle: I am just so used to the whole write code, compile code, run code mentality
2021-01-07T07:41:05Z stargazesparkle: The idea of interactive coding is so... foreign
2021-01-07T07:41:09Z beach: That's not how we do it, for good reasons.
2021-01-07T07:41:37Z mfiano: Clojure doesn't have an interactive inspector, debugger, the condition system, or CLOS...all very important things for interactive live coding.
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2021-01-07T07:42:48Z beach: Try https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzTH_ZqaFKI
2021-01-07T07:42:54Z beach: I hope I got the link right.
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2021-01-07T07:44:17Z mfiano: Ah a classic
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2021-01-07T07:58:45Z beach: stargazesparkle: Did you check the link?
2021-01-07T07:59:04Z stargazesparkle: Oh! I think I may have gotten slime set up
2021-01-07T07:59:12Z beach: Great!
2021-01-07T07:59:19Z stargazesparkle: How uh
2021-01-07T07:59:26Z stargazesparkle: Do I eval an s-expression?
2021-01-07T07:59:46Z beach: In the REPL, just type it followed by RET.
2021-01-07T07:59:56Z beach: In a source buffer, type C-c C-c.
2021-01-07T08:00:44Z beach: With slime, you would typically (depending on your screen) have one REPL window and at least one source buffer, side by side.
2021-01-07T08:01:19Z stargazesparkle: Yeah that is the case here
2021-01-07T08:01:23Z beach: As the video shows, you would then write code in the source buffer and hit C-c C-c to load the code into your Common Lisp system.
2021-01-07T08:01:35Z beach: Or you can switch to the REPL window and type expressions.
2021-01-07T08:04:44Z stargazesparkle: Okay that makes sense
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2021-01-07T08:05:32Z stargazesparkle: Should I be putting all of my code in the one buffer and then saving that as a file?
2021-01-07T08:05:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: that's more or less what I do starting out
2021-01-07T08:06:18Z phoe: stargazesparkle: yes, I then C-c C-c new/modified forms that I type out
2021-01-07T08:06:25Z phoe: and occasionally interact with the repl
2021-01-07T08:06:39Z stargazesparkle: Oh that is a name that seems familiar to me
2021-01-07T08:06:50Z stargazesparkle: I don't know why though
2021-01-07T08:06:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: I'm also a bit surprised. Calva in VSCode implements a very similar workflow for Clojure (CIDER is the emacs equivalent)
2021-01-07T08:06:59Z phoe: name?
2021-01-07T08:07:04Z stargazesparkle: Your name
2021-01-07T08:07:05Z stargazesparkle: Phoe
2021-01-07T08:07:13Z phoe: huh! hmmm
2021-01-07T08:07:35Z stargazesparkle: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes it does I didn't know that this was basically the same
2021-01-07T08:07:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's roughly the same idea: connect to a repl, send code over
2021-01-07T08:08:03Z stargazesparkle: Okay that's a far less confusing proposition
2021-01-07T08:08:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wrote Clojure professionally for a year or two and it was very similar, except the JVM makes it a bit tricky to redefine certain things and do things like loading libraries on the fly
2021-01-07T08:09:02Z stargazesparkle: phoe: did you provoke the ire of someone? I think I remember seeing some github thing recently about some cl revivaland I could have sworn that phoe was a name dropped.
2021-01-07T08:10:19Z stargazesparkle: I would be writing clojure rn too but on w10 something that calva relies on is borked so nrepl doesn't work and so I thought to revisit this project which lead me to looking for help which lead me to being directed here which lead to me installing emacs
2021-01-07T08:10:21Z stargazesparkle: lol
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2021-01-07T08:10:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Phoe is the #1 threat to CL, I believe
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2021-01-07T08:10:45Z phoe: stargazesparkle: yes, I did
2021-01-07T08:11:09Z stargazesparkle: I don't know anything about you but all that I can say is, sorry you have to deal with that
2021-01-07T08:11:09Z phoe: and I'd rather discuss it on query or #lispcafe rather than here since it's considered off-topic for a good reason :D
2021-01-07T08:11:16Z stargazesparkle: Okie
2021-01-07T08:11:42Z stargazesparkle: I... need to go look up what nickserv is first before I can join that channel
2021-01-07T08:12:15Z phoe: nickserv is a part of Freenode infrastructure that allows one to register their nick, so no one can impersonate them. to get help on it, do /msg NickServ help
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2021-01-07T08:12:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Something like /msg NickServ register <mynewpassword> <email>
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2021-01-07T14:29:17Z semz: Should library functions that are part of the public interface contain type declarations for parameters?
2021-01-07T14:30:24Z semz: I remember asking about the type declaration part of Norvig&Pitman in the past and getting "``if you know the type'' means ``if you can guarantee the type''" as a response, but just randomly stumbled over such declarations in alexandria
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2021-01-07T14:37:23Z Bike: it's true that putting in a declaration doesn't necessarily constitute an actual check, and code might behave badly if declarations are violated
2021-01-07T14:37:54Z Bike: like in iota. i see.
2021-01-07T14:38:26Z Bike: of course you could also take this to mean the programmer is responsible for making sure the functions are not called with invalid arguments.
2021-01-07T14:39:18Z frodef: it's a bit strange really to have a "safe" language where you can just promise away the safety.
2021-01-07T14:39:32Z jackdaniel: sbcl actually puts check-type on declare type
2021-01-07T14:39:48Z jackdaniel: but it is not mandated by the spec
2021-01-07T14:40:25Z Nilby: semz: Yes. But "should" is a stronger word than I would use. I usually put off declarations until the code is very stable. I usually do what I call "note driven declarations". I turn on optimization in sbcl and try to make as many notes disappear as possible.
2021-01-07T14:40:26Z jackdaniel: so the portable safe way is (declare …) (check-type …) ,@body
2021-01-07T14:40:53Z jackdaniel: I think
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2021-01-07T14:41:59Z phoe: in pure theory the portable safe way is to avoid DECLARE because if you even call a function with a wrong argument then it is not said that execution will reach the CHECK-TYPE statement
2021-01-07T14:42:15Z phoe: the mere act of calling a function while violating a type definition is enough to invoke undefined behavior
2021-01-07T14:42:19Z semz: yeah CCL will happily fault on (inspect (funcall (lambda (x) (declare (type fixnum x)) (+ x 3)) nil)) for instance
2021-01-07T14:42:25Z jackdaniel: phoe: yes, you are right
2021-01-07T14:42:52Z phoe: but, in practice, in safe code this should signal a type error
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2021-01-07T14:43:14Z flip214: doesn't a CHECK-TYPE get the arg declaration automatically? ISTR that this works in SBCL?!
2021-01-07T14:43:25Z phoe: yes, but that is SBCL-specific
2021-01-07T14:43:42Z jackdaniel: flip214: we are discussing what is mandated by the standard, sbcl is most likely safe :)
2021-01-07T14:43:52Z flip214: *DERIVE-FUNCTION-TYPES* is what I'm talking about
2021-01-07T14:44:00Z flip214: well, just _make_ that a standard ;)
2021-01-07T14:44:04Z jackdaniel: phoe: in practice, in safe code, declare per se should not signal an error
2021-01-07T14:44:09Z phoe: CLtL3 resumes
2021-01-07T14:44:13Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes
2021-01-07T14:44:14Z semz: it should and does, see the infamous (+ 0 nil) where ~every impl signals type error even though it's undefined even in safe mode, but with declarations it usually blows up in my experience
2021-01-07T14:44:30Z semz: and badly so
2021-01-07T14:44:42Z jackdaniel: semz: how (+ 0 nil) is undefined?
2021-01-07T14:45:18Z semz: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_pl.htm
2021-01-07T14:45:34Z semz: note the "*might* signal", which means it may not signal even in safe code
2021-01-07T14:45:50Z frodef: (declare foo) (check-type foo) should/could compile to just (declare foo), no? Meaning the promise in the declaration means the check-type can be type-inferred away.
2021-01-07T14:45:53Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm
2021-01-07T14:45:53Z jackdaniel: seems pretty defined to me
2021-01-07T14:45:59Z phoe: " This means that the situation has undefined consequences; however, if an error is signaled, it is of the specified type. For example, ``open might signal an error of type file-error.''"
2021-01-07T14:46:13Z phoe: so an implementation is allowed to signal an error, but it may also print unicorns to the screen
2021-01-07T14:46:34Z phoe: that's not a strong "should signal an error"
2021-01-07T14:46:40Z jackdaniel: uhm, correct
2021-01-07T14:46:43Z phoe: (+ 0 nil) ;=> 42 on a conforming implementation
2021-01-07T14:46:55Z phoe: and that's... troublesome, but in practice in safe code no one really does this
2021-01-07T14:47:02Z semz: you'd have to be insane to not signal there in safe code
2021-01-07T14:47:04Z phoe: s/on a/allowed on a/
2021-01-07T14:47:13Z semz: but with libraries the situation is a bit different than with the core language
2021-01-07T14:47:28Z semz: hence the question
2021-01-07T14:48:23Z flip214: perhaps alexandria should provide a defun* that takes types, and generates _both_ DECLARE and CHECK-TYPE ... some of that might be optimized away
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2021-01-07T14:50:45Z Nilby: (handler-case (+ 0 nil) (simple-type-error () (format t "🦄🦄🦄!~%")))
2021-01-07T14:51:29Z _death: I remember the ITA guys had a define-strict-function operator..
2021-01-07T14:53:16Z frodef: flip214: seems to me you'd want just the check-type, not the declare.
2021-01-07T14:53:33Z _death: I would say alexandria should not be innovative with interfaces (and besides, it could use some work on implementation..)
2021-01-07T14:54:24Z flip214: frodef: the check-type alone might not be visible when getting function information via SWANK
2021-01-07T14:54:45Z flip214: _death: merge requests welcome!  (sorry, very stereotypical answer)
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2021-01-07T15:00:28Z _death: maybe if it was on github or some other site that doesn't require "two-factor authentication" for such a thing..
2021-01-07T15:01:13Z phoe: I need to write a post about how to easily set an OTP client on Linux, or andOTP on Android, in order to swiftly log into clnet
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2021-01-07T15:07:43Z frodef: I don't suppose Eric Schulte is here? I'm trying to use elf.lisp...
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2021-01-07T15:13:44Z _death: frodef: he's sometimes here
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2021-01-07T15:29:50Z flip214: _death: like https://github.com/phmarek/alexandria?
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2021-01-07T15:30:50Z _death: do you take PRs there?
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2021-01-07T15:32:11Z flip214: I might if there were any
2021-01-07T15:33:03Z _death: cool.. then I might have a small patch on the weekend
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2021-01-07T15:33:27Z flip214: np
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2021-01-07T15:38:25Z Bike: anyone ever put custom methods on update-instance-for-different-class?
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2021-01-07T15:40:07Z flip214: I played around with that, but stopped as there was no queue of these function calls
2021-01-07T15:40:39Z flip214: Ie. when changing a class 3 times and _then_ touching an old instance, the "intermediate" 3 "update" functions were not called
2021-01-07T15:41:04Z phoe: Bike: why do you ask?
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2021-01-07T15:41:17Z Bike: i don't understand. when you change-class u-i-f-d-c needs to be called immediately. It's not like finalization or something.
2021-01-07T15:41:46Z phoe: yes, it must be called immediately
2021-01-07T15:41:57Z phoe: that's unlike class finalization or instance obsoletion
2021-01-07T15:42:04Z Bike: phoe: i'm considering an optimization for change-class that would make it work faster when there are no u-i-f-d-c methods but slower if there are and wondering if anybody at all could conceivably care.
2021-01-07T15:42:15Z phoe: I thought you'd be doing that
2021-01-07T15:42:22Z phoe: there would be no need to copy the instance then, would it?
2021-01-07T15:42:39Z Bike: yeah. it would be possible to not cons.
2021-01-07T15:42:53Z Bike: well, work faster in limited circumstances, i should say
2021-01-07T15:43:00Z phoe: yes, that would be a good use case for heavy change-class users
2021-01-07T15:43:10Z phoe: mfiano would be one, if they used clasp
2021-01-07T15:43:17Z phoe: s/they/he/
2021-01-07T15:43:26Z phoe: maybe you could him for his code, try to run it on clasp as a performance benchmark
2021-01-07T15:43:32Z Bike: this optimization could be put in other implementations, conceivably
2021-01-07T15:43:33Z phoe: he does a ton of class changing in one game engine of his.
2021-01-07T15:44:02Z Bike: i don't have much understanding of how change-class is actually used. it's a little rare. we use it a lot in cleavir but maybe not in usual ways, i don't know.
2021-01-07T15:45:47Z flip214: ah sorry, I was testing UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-REDEFINED-CLASS
2021-01-07T15:46:11Z Bike: ahh yeah okay.
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2021-01-07T15:48:31Z phoe: I remember beach has use cases for it in SICL, but I don't know if these would be performance heavy
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2021-01-07T15:53:27Z Bike: in sicl rather than cleavir? hmmm.
2021-01-07T15:53:43Z Bike: ah, yeah, i do see some.
2021-01-07T15:54:27Z beach: Might be in HIR-to-MIR or MIR-to-LIR so same use case as in Cleavir.
2021-01-07T15:54:28Z beach: No?
2021-01-07T15:54:46Z Bike: yeah. it also looks like there are some in the code generator, and with the environments.
2021-01-07T15:56:49Z Bike: karlosz found that the optimization i've already done (which doesn't involve what i'm asking about) reduced consing when compiling asdf by 6%, which i'd say means cleavir uses it pretty heavily
2021-01-07T15:57:18Z Bike: compared to my previous experience of change-class, anyway, which is nobody using it
2021-01-07T15:57:32Z Xach: i use change-class so much!
2021-01-07T15:58:12Z Bike: the particular extra optimization i'm thinking of here would only come into play when the source and destination classes have the same slots (because then the instance doesn't need new slot storage)
2021-01-07T15:58:18Z Bike: cleavir does that sometimes, don't know about other uses
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2021-01-07T15:59:43Z Bike: i think it is a little counterintuitive how change-class sounds like a pure mutation that won't cons, but that isn't generally true
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2021-01-07T16:00:48Z beach: Right.  In general the size of the instance will change.
2021-01-07T16:01:37Z frodef: _death: do you know his nick?
2021-01-07T16:03:07Z _death: frodef: eschulte
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2021-01-07T16:07:30Z phoe: beach: does it change?
2021-01-07T16:07:38Z phoe: (defclass a () ()) (defclass b (a) ())
2021-01-07T16:07:53Z phoe: change-classing from A to B or from B to A, does it change instance size?
2021-01-07T16:08:02Z Bike: not really.
2021-01-07T16:08:26Z beach: Not in that case.  Which is why I said "in general" rather than "always".
2021-01-07T16:08:37Z phoe: I understand that in general it *may* change if the resulting slot vectors are of different sizes
2021-01-07T16:08:49Z phoe: in my dictionary "will" implies it's usually the case
2021-01-07T16:08:53Z beach: That's what I meant by "in general", yes.
2021-01-07T16:08:57Z phoe: OK, I understand now
2021-01-07T16:09:08Z Bike: if you want a more specific definition, they need to have sets of slots with the same names. if the implementation is a little fancier types on the slots are relevant as well.
2021-01-07T16:09:12Z rpg_away: Bike: I also use change-class a lot, but often unconsciously
2021-01-07T16:09:37Z Bike: i suppose they don't actually need the same names either
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2021-01-07T16:10:28Z Bike: as long as the slot storage is the same the values in it can just be reshuffled appropriately.
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2021-01-07T16:35:00Z frodef: is (when foo (progn ...)) a thing? Why would anyone consistently do that?
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2021-01-07T16:36:55Z pfdietz: Slime has suddenly stopped working for me when I have the Cisco anyconnect client enabled.      Socket error in "bind": 99 (Cannot assign requested address)
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2021-01-07T16:37:11Z pfdietz: I wonder if this is an ipv6 problem
2021-01-07T16:37:26Z beach: frodef: Nobody would do that.
2021-01-07T16:41:30Z pfdietz: Turning off ipv6 does not fix it.
2021-01-07T16:41:47Z flip214: frodef: a macro perhaps?
2021-01-07T16:42:32Z frodef: flip214: nope, plain code. I suspect it's beginner code.
2021-01-07T16:42:36Z flip214: pfdietz: cisco anyconnect prohibits any other communication
2021-01-07T16:42:53Z pfdietz: This used to work.
2021-01-07T16:42:57Z flip214: perhaps you can explicitly connect to 127.0.0.1 instead of the local ip? not sure whether that's allowed, though
2021-01-07T16:43:00Z beach: frodef: Only some 10 hours ago, we saw (defun fff (...) (progn ...)) so it is not that surprising I guess.
2021-01-07T16:45:09Z flip214: well, (WHEN (condition) (PROGN ...)) is just the literal translation of "IF (condition) { ... }", and people get told not to forget the {} else they'll be burned
2021-01-07T16:45:29Z flip214: burned or eaten, by big, hungry BUGS
2021-01-07T16:46:00Z flip214: so the (DEFUN ... (PROGN ...)) isn't that surprising either.... "int foo() {}" has the {} too
2021-01-07T16:46:28Z frodef: flip214: seems plausible.
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2021-01-07T16:50:34Z _death: it could be debugging debris, by way of putting a bunch of forms into a single form that can be easily #+nil'd
2021-01-07T16:51:13Z _death: although with WHEN it may be easily to disable the condition
2021-01-07T16:51:20Z _death: *easier
2021-01-07T16:51:21Z flip214: _death: plausible for DEFUN, but the WHEN could also be disabled at one location
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2021-01-07T16:51:36Z flip214: #+(or) (WHEN ....)
2021-01-07T16:51:55Z _death: then again, the condition may have side effects :d
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2021-01-07T16:52:48Z flip214: right
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2021-01-07T16:53:07Z flip214 ... so the only sure way is to nuke the PROGN from orbit
2021-01-07T16:55:39Z _death: btw, I never bother with #+(or) or #-(and).. I guess these persnickety ways belong to a time where such "commented out" code was more acceptable to "check in" or even just to "save in the file" (to be backed up later this week using tape)
2021-01-07T16:57:10Z _death: then you'd care for some New Implementation of Lisp which may actually see the code
2021-01-07T16:57:19Z flip214: well, if you have (FORMAT ...) spread out, disabling a few of them temporarily until debugging needs them again works for me
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2021-01-07T16:58:25Z _death: flip214: well, if I wanted to solve that using features, I'd have #+my-library-debug
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2021-01-07T17:36:15Z SpaceIgor2075: Is reading CL Cookbok after Land of Lisp a good choice for a newbie?
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2021-01-07T17:39:51Z Cthulhux`: don't read
2021-01-07T17:39:54Z Cthulhux`: learn by writing code.
2021-01-07T17:39:58Z Cthulhux`: jm2c
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2021-01-07T17:40:59Z jackdaniel: even better, learn by writing code while fixing issues in open source libraries ,)
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2021-01-07T17:41:55Z White_Flame: once you read 1 book, you should be good to read basically any other book teaching CL
2021-01-07T17:42:15Z White_Flame: but yeah, write code based on what you know already, and start learning how to read the CLHS to be able to look things up
2021-01-07T17:42:18Z Xach: I like learning by reading code and reading books, and writing code is also helpful.
2021-01-07T17:42:38Z SpaceIgor2075: Cthulhux`, jackdaniel: in my case this advice is really helpful, i think i read and think too much instead of just writing te code
2021-01-07T17:43:17Z White_Flame: and flood #clschool with any silly question you happen to have.  Better to hash things through rather than muddle on unknowns forever
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2021-01-07T17:43:51Z SpaceIgor2075: Thanks everybody for the advice
2021-01-07T17:43:53Z jackdaniel: these are not exclusive or options - you may still educate yourself with books
2021-01-07T17:44:25Z White_Flame: symbols/packages are usually the biggest hangup when initially learning
2021-01-07T17:44:32Z White_Flame: and then wrapping your head around macros as you get further along
2021-01-07T17:45:22Z White_Flame: sometimes those issues take a bit of time to "click", no matter how good the book/explanation
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2021-01-07T19:27:11Z nij: Anyone uses Nyxt as your main browser :) ?
2021-01-07T19:28:10Z greeb: had never heard of nyxt but I'm not extremely interested
2021-01-07T19:28:17Z greeb: I'm now***
2021-01-07T19:28:31Z nij: lol completely different meaning
2021-01-07T19:29:28Z greeb: yeah haha
2021-01-07T19:30:14Z nij: It's super cute. Still trying to find its weakness.
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2021-01-07T19:33:01Z greeb: surf is the only browser I regularly use that's like this, but I'm always looking for any excuse to use Lisp, and a browser seems like an especially good excuse
2021-01-07T19:33:01Z nij: greeb: are you truin git out?
2021-01-07T19:33:14Z greeb: I just cloned repo, yeah
2021-01-07T19:33:22Z nij: greeb: emacs, nyxt, stumpwm..
2021-01-07T19:33:39Z greeb: I'm a heathen. slimv, surf, dwm
2021-01-07T19:33:44Z greeb: :x
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2021-01-07T19:35:51Z greeb: oh stumpwm comes from ratpoison? that's cool
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2021-01-07T20:09:14Z stargazesparkle: Does anyone know if slime can restructure a file? If so, what is the command?
2021-01-07T20:10:19Z contrapunctus: stargazesparkle: restructure? I think you want redshank for that sort of thing (...but does anyone even use that?)
2021-01-07T20:10:40Z stargazesparkle: I don't know someone said my formatting was shit and that I should fix it
2021-01-07T20:10:49Z stargazesparkle: And I want to know if there is an automated way to do that
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2021-01-07T20:11:19Z contrapunctus: stargazesparkle: oh. smartparens or paredit. A single command will indent a top-level form.
2021-01-07T20:12:27Z contrapunctus: stargazesparkle: these don't add or remove newlines, though.
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2021-01-07T20:14:15Z _death: if you mean reindent, you can C-x h C-M-\
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2021-01-07T20:44:22Z pfdietz: Xach: I wonder how many quicklisp systems are acceptably licensed, if one includes all the dependencies they have.  It doesnt take many bad apples to spoil things.
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2021-01-07T20:58:53Z phoe: That would actually make a good graph, or something.
2021-01-07T20:59:45Z Xach: pfdietz: acceptable means different things to different people
2021-01-07T20:59:53Z Xach: ok, my clhs lookup page has been fixed, at long last
2021-01-07T21:00:07Z Xach: fewer than 10 characters updated and it is back online.
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2021-01-07T21:04:01Z pfdietz: Here, I mean "a company can use these without running into trouble".   L(L)GPL, not GPL, and not "vague words that aren't a license".
2021-01-07T21:09:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I'm not sure I agree with that read of the standard for +
2021-01-07T21:09:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: It could be read as "It might signal a type error" that is, you can't rely on + not signalling
2021-01-07T21:10:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: and then "when one of the arguments is not a number" specifies when it does signal a type-error
2021-01-07T21:10:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/when/if/
2021-01-07T21:10:21Z dbotton: I have a more interesting demo of the start of my CLOG project, a little video game that will play on mobile or desktop browsers. http://office.botton.com:8080  - the source is at https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/07-tutorial.lisp
2021-01-07T21:10:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: this would mean that (+ a b) might signal but (+ 0 nil) is specified to signal
2021-01-07T21:11:35Z dbotton: I'll leave it up a day or so, hoping to see if it errors out at all
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2021-01-07T21:14:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: dbotton: I think it works for me, the click-targetting seems a bit inaccurate
2021-01-07T21:14:43Z dbotton: You expect to kill Darth easy :)
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2021-01-07T21:15:02Z dbotton: On iPhones easier
2021-01-07T21:15:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Browsers disabled moving the mouse pointer, but if they hadn't I'd want an aimbot`
2021-01-07T21:15:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2021-01-07T21:15:39Z dbotton: Well this is just a tutorial
2021-01-07T21:16:18Z dbotton: Once I finish up the canvas code for 2d graphics I'll make something more interesting
2021-01-07T21:16:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm joking
2021-01-07T21:16:46Z dbotton: My main need though is for the form and text code for the larger project
2021-01-07T21:18:57Z dbotton: CLOG is really nice for teaching multithreaded programming.
2021-01-07T21:19:29Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, it can't rely on it
2021-01-07T21:19:36Z phoe: but it is allowed to
2021-01-07T21:19:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: that's not how I read the standard
2021-01-07T21:19:54Z phoe: code that depends on (= (+ 0 nil) 42) is allowed to be conforming but not portable
2021-01-07T21:20:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: The might doesn't apply to the situation where one of the arugments is not a number
2021-01-07T21:20:07Z phoe: why not?
2021-01-07T21:20:08Z phoe: clhs +
2021-01-07T21:20:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pl.htm
2021-01-07T21:20:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: The might there just means that + might in some circumstances signal a type-error
2021-01-07T21:20:19Z phoe: "Might signal type-error if some argument is not a number."
2021-01-07T21:20:33Z phoe: the "might" *literally* applies to the situation where one of the arguments is not a number
2021-01-07T21:20:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah "Might signal type-error (if some argument is not a number)"
2021-01-07T21:20:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is how I'd read that
2021-01-07T21:20:57Z phoe: and "might signal" means that an implementation is allowed to not signal
2021-01-07T21:21:02Z phoe: so it may do whatever instead
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2021-01-07T21:21:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd read it like this if I ask can this form (+ a b) signal any conditions?
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2021-01-07T21:21:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: The answer is "it might"
2021-01-07T21:21:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: When?
2021-01-07T21:22:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: When one of the arguments is not a number
2021-01-07T21:22:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: The English is ambiguous
2021-01-07T21:22:31Z phoe: no, that is "should signal an error"
2021-01-07T21:22:42Z phoe: clhs 1.4.2
2021-01-07T21:22:42Z specbot: Error Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm
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2021-01-07T21:22:55Z phoe: this clearly describes the difference between "should" and "might"
2021-01-07T21:23:12Z phoe: in RFC terms, "should" means that safe code MUST signal and unsafe code SHOULD signal
2021-01-07T21:23:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, maybe that's right
2021-01-07T21:23:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm
2021-01-07T21:23:27Z phoe: whereas "might" means that safe and unsafe code alike MAY signal but also MAY do whatever
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2021-01-07T21:31:12Z phoe: (and if it signals, then it must be of the given type)
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2021-01-07T21:35:45Z edgar-rft: hmm, if there is *no* argument, is it then not a number?
2021-01-07T21:36:02Z phoe: I don't think + can accept "no argument"
2021-01-07T21:36:09Z phoe: zero values are coerced into a NIL
2021-01-07T21:37:01Z edgar-rft: (0) => 0, at least in SBCL
2021-01-07T21:37:17Z phoe: (0)? that's an illegal function call though
2021-01-07T21:37:29Z edgar-rft: sorry, I meant (+) => 0
2021-01-07T21:37:38Z phoe: oh, + is well behaved with zero arguments
2021-01-07T21:37:45Z phoe: because it accepts a &rest which may be empty
2021-01-07T21:38:15Z Alfr: edgar-rft, sum of numbers, empty sum => 0
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2021-01-07T21:39:33Z edgar-rft: yes, but the question was: as you can see there are *no* arguments, are they numbers?
2021-01-07T21:39:53Z phoe: is what exactly numbers
2021-01-07T21:40:02Z phoe: + accepts N arguments, and all of them must be numbers
2021-01-07T21:40:03Z Alfr: edgar-rft, all arguments (admittedly none in that case) are numbers.
2021-01-07T21:40:05Z phoe: 0 arguments, 0 problems
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2021-01-07T21:41:05Z Bike: no arguments = no non-numbers.
2021-01-07T21:41:30Z Alfr: edgar-rft, or for type-error to trigger, there'd have to exist an argument which is not a number, see Exceptional Situations.
2021-01-07T21:41:57Z Bike: something something existential import.
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2021-01-07T21:44:11Z edgar-rft: MIGHT-BE-NUMBER-P :-)
2021-01-07T21:45:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, now we need a TRIVIAL-NUMERIC-OPERATIONS library, I think
2021-01-07T21:46:37Z Alfr: fiddlerwoaroof, that'd end up a cesspool.
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2021-01-07T21:48:20Z Alfr: fiddlerwoaroof, as long as you stick to rationals all is quite well within clhs, but once you start dabbling with floats all bets are off.
2021-01-07T21:48:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's just all the CL stuff with deterministic behavior
2021-01-07T21:49:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, floats are interesting in CL.
2021-01-07T21:51:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have a library that relies a lot on composing lambdas
2021-01-07T21:52:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are there any tricks to get implementations to inline lambdas and/or not allocate a bunch of closures?
2021-01-07T21:53:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've sort of idly thought about switching to a code generator and calling COMPILE, which would solve some problems and create others.
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2021-01-07T23:01:07Z stargazesparkle: So I have slime and I have emacs
2021-01-07T23:01:18Z stargazesparkle: And I have an ASD
2021-01-07T23:01:35Z stargazesparkle: How do I then load my project into emacs so that I can access it from the repl?
2021-01-07T23:02:24Z moon-child: (asdf:load-system :whatever) from the repl
2021-01-07T23:02:32Z stargazesparkle: I keep seeing slime-asdf as a package that is supposed to be able to load the system HOWEVER it is not included with slime and I cannot find it in package-install
2021-01-07T23:02:36Z stargazesparkle: o
2021-01-07T23:02:36Z Alfr: stargazesparkle, asdf:load-asd or link it somewhere asdf looks for it, then asdf:load-system .
2021-01-07T23:02:39Z stargazesparkle: Let me try that
2021-01-07T23:02:51Z White_Flame:  it needs to be in a known path though
2021-01-07T23:03:11Z moon-child: Alfr: linking works ok for sbcl, but not ccl
2021-01-07T23:03:12Z stargazesparkle: The known path would be ~/common-lisp right?
2021-01-07T23:03:19Z moon-child: (haven't tried other impls, but it doesn't work universally)
2021-01-07T23:03:23Z White_Flame: asdf:*central-registry*
2021-01-07T23:03:24Z rpg: stargazesparkle: If you load "slime-fancy" then you will get slime-asd
2021-01-07T23:03:30Z White_Flame: however, easier to set up is to use quicklisp around it instead
2021-01-07T23:03:44Z rpg: stargazesparkle: Yes, putting your system into ~/common-lisp/ will make it findable.
2021-01-07T23:03:45Z stargazesparkle: I have quicklisp
2021-01-07T23:03:59Z Alfr: moon-child, oh really? Didn't encounter the problem yet, but thanks for the heads up. :)
2021-01-07T23:04:16Z rpg: If you have quicklisp, you can put your system in local-projects subdirectory of the ql install directory.
2021-01-07T23:04:27Z stargazesparkle: I...
2021-01-07T23:04:28Z White_Flame: or link from there
2021-01-07T23:04:32Z stargazesparkle: Uh need to find that stuff
2021-01-07T23:04:40Z stargazesparkle: I don't actually know where any of this installed
2021-01-07T23:04:56Z White_Flame: cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects
2021-01-07T23:04:59Z stargazesparkle: I know where ~/emacs.d is
2021-01-07T23:05:02Z White_Flame: ln -s ~/...my project/
2021-01-07T23:05:20Z White_Flame: (ql:quickload :my-project-name)
2021-01-07T23:05:34Z stargazesparkle: Okay here let me try something that I think will work
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2021-01-07T23:08:19Z stargazesparkle: Okay that worked
2021-01-07T23:08:24Z White_Flame: cool
2021-01-07T23:08:47Z stargazesparkle: Do I have to reload my entire project to play with changes or only the s-expressions that I add/change
2021-01-07T23:08:48Z White_Flame: it's a few steps removed from bog standard lisp, but basically how the cool kids work today
2021-01-07T23:08:59Z White_Flame: depends
2021-01-07T23:09:33Z White_Flame: generally, if you recompile a function, the next time it's called it will use the new version
2021-01-07T23:09:47Z White_Flame: (unless it's inlined, or if it's directly referenced from teh same compilation unit, etc etc)
2021-01-07T23:10:04Z White_Flame: C-c C-k (recompiling/loading the entire current .lisp file) is generally an appropriate command to use
2021-01-07T23:10:32Z White_Flame: take care around defvar vs defparameter, and any toplevel closures
2021-01-07T23:11:01Z White_Flame: eg (let ((count 0)) (defun next () (incf count))) will reset the counter on reloading the file
2021-01-07T23:14:55Z aeth: White_Flame: you can fix that with macros
2021-01-07T23:15:31Z White_Flame: sure
2021-01-07T23:15:54Z aeth: i.e. add a hidden accessor function to the closure (or use multiple return values or something) and use that to initialize the "initial" COUNT on recompilation to something else.
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2021-01-07T23:16:28Z aeth: i.e. if FBOUNDP at macro time, then call it take the old value, otherwise default to 0
2021-01-07T23:16:42Z aeth: just make sure not to do side effects
2021-01-07T23:17:23Z aeth: s/call it take the old/call it to take the old/
2021-01-07T23:17:57Z aeth: so in that particular example you would have to add another function, to avoid the side effect
2021-01-07T23:20:44Z aeth: This is ultra niche, but it's one of the coolest things you can do because the macro is conceptually simple, but what it does is very clever.
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2021-01-07T23:35:49Z stargazesparkle: White_Flame: tyvm
2021-01-07T23:35:59Z stargazesparkle: I am starting to... understand more wtf I am doing
2021-01-07T23:36:16Z stargazesparkle: I like how at the bottom of emacs when I type a function or whatever it gives me information about it
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2021-01-07T23:42:03Z lotuseater: stargazesparkle: oh yes really helpful
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2021-01-07T23:51:16Z stargazesparkle: Is there a way to export all symbols from a package so that I can test them in the repl?
2021-01-07T23:51:36Z stargazesparkle: I know of (:export) but I have to list everything off by hand
2021-01-07T23:54:13Z phoe: in-package
2021-01-07T23:54:19Z phoe: I'd just switch to the package in question instead
2021-01-07T23:54:28Z stargazesparkle: Oh that...
2021-01-07T23:54:32Z stargazesparkle: Makes sense
2021-01-07T23:54:49Z stargazesparkle: idk why I didn't think to do that
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2021-01-08T00:04:33Z White_Flame: nothing you do on the repl will ever damage your source code, so hack away
2021-01-08T00:04:56Z White_Flame: when you restart-inferior-lisp, you can reload clean from source, and any droppings your repl stuff left in the package will be gone
2021-01-08T00:05:16Z White_Flame: (well, barring issuing file commands etc from the repl, obv)
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2021-01-08T00:26:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: C-c ~ switches the repl to the same package as your current buffer
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2021-01-08T00:26:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: C-c x exports the symbol at the cursor from the current package
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2021-01-08T01:56:41Z stargazesparkle: I just made a radical fucking connection
2021-01-08T01:57:01Z stargazesparkle: Common Lisp works sort of similar to SmallTalk in how it's a system
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2021-01-08T02:06:05Z Gnuxie[m]: If it weren't a system it'd be a bag of shit
2021-01-08T02:07:37Z Gnuxie[m]: It's very fortunate
2021-01-08T02:10:31Z aeth: Smalltalk and Common Lisp are very close languages.
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2021-01-08T02:16:52Z devon: What are your favorite COMPOSE and CURRY implementations?  Hard to believe they're not in the standard.
2021-01-08T02:16:57Z aeth: Smalltalk takes images a bit further than CL does. CL takes OOP a bit further than Smalltalk does. This is amusing because it's Smalltalk that's known for its OOP.
2021-01-08T02:17:46Z aeth: devon: Alexandria's is probably the most common
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2021-01-08T02:54:22Z loke[m]: devon alexandria is pretty much a standard library.
2021-01-08T02:55:34Z Bike: alexandria's has that interesting multiple-value-call trick
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2021-01-08T03:12:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Alexandria has a handy compiler-macro for it too
2021-01-08T03:14:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like using a macro to alias • to ALEXANDRIA:COMPOSE
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2021-01-08T04:02:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-08T04:03:37Z mrios22: Good morning!
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2021-01-08T04:37:54Z stargazesparkle: I still don't understand wtf a macro is
2021-01-08T04:38:37Z beach: It is an ordinary function that takes Common Lisp code and returns Common Lisp code.
2021-01-08T04:38:40Z beach: Nothing else.
2021-01-08T04:39:04Z stargazesparkle: O
2021-01-08T04:39:08Z stargazesparkle: Wait
2021-01-08T04:39:10Z stargazesparkle: Hmm
2021-01-08T04:39:18Z beach: So it allows you to invent new syntax; new "special operators" if you like, by expressing new operators in terms of existing ones.
2021-01-08T04:39:44Z stargazesparkle: So it's like an automatic copy and paste sort of into existing code
2021-01-08T04:40:11Z mfiano: Macros are basically for two things: syntactic abstractions and evaluation control.
2021-01-08T04:40:21Z beach: I hadn't thought if it like that, but that's sort of accurate.
2021-01-08T04:40:23Z mfiano: If you need to create new syntax, or defer evaluation
2021-01-08T04:41:14Z beach: stargazesparkle: Another way of viewing it, is that you can program the compiler to recognize new syntax, because the compiler will expand a form with your new operator.  That is the reason we don't have to wait for CL21, CL24, etc, in order to get new functionality.
2021-01-08T04:41:20Z beach: The application programmer can do it .
2021-01-08T04:41:46Z stargazesparkle: I'm struggling to think of an example of that
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2021-01-08T04:42:30Z stargazesparkle: Would arrow macros be considered new syntax
2021-01-08T04:42:38Z mfiano: For example, you can't re-implement `AND` as a function, because of its short-circuiting behavior. Function arguments are evaluated before application.
2021-01-08T04:42:38Z beach: That's what I said.
2021-01-08T04:42:44Z beach: Oh, arrow macros
2021-01-08T04:42:45Z beach: ?
2021-01-08T04:43:09Z mfiano: stargazesparkle: Yes
2021-01-08T04:43:24Z stargazesparkle: (-> 1 (+ 2 3) #'1+ 1+ (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) (1+))
2021-01-08T04:43:39Z beach: Not sure what that means, but it looks like new syntax to me.
2021-01-08T04:43:45Z mfiano: beach: Arrow macros are a clojurism to remove nesting.
2021-01-08T04:43:53Z beach: I see.
2021-01-08T04:43:57Z stargazesparkle: Ye
2021-01-08T04:44:03Z beach: stargazesparkle: New syntax is whenever you have an opeartor that does not behave like a function.
2021-01-08T04:44:13Z stargazesparkle: Hmm
2021-01-08T04:44:18Z mfiano: (-> 1 (+ 2 3) #'1+) ; => (1+ (+ 1 2 3))
2021-01-08T04:44:21Z mfiano: or something like that
2021-01-08T04:44:29Z stargazesparkle: Yes
2021-01-08T04:45:14Z mfiano: -> sends the preceding return value as the first argument to the unevaluated s-expression to construct a new s-expression, then evaluates it and repeats it down the chain
2021-01-08T04:45:27Z beach: Oh, the number of things #lisp participants are expected to master: Clojure, Python, JavaScript, Java, C#, all possible editors and IDEs, json, web stuff...
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2021-01-08T04:46:22Z stargazesparkle: Yes
2021-01-08T04:46:38Z stargazesparkle: And because you have mastered them all you have been incredibly helpful
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2021-01-08T04:47:32Z stargazesparkle: However, I use the arrow-macros library on quicklisp because it is nice to do those threading things
2021-01-08T04:48:45Z mrios22: I have seen people use let* as a way to get threading-macro-like behavior. Some readers may find the progression to be clearer when it is written that way.
2021-01-08T04:49:07Z beach: stargazesparkle: So [and this goes for almost any language, really] a function evaluates all of its arguments before the function is invoked.  You can write new functions in almost any language, like C, Java, etc.
2021-01-08T04:49:16Z mfiano: You can't use LET for threading macros. only to a very limited extent
2021-01-08T04:49:36Z beach: stargazesparkle: But if you want a new construct that doesn't behave like that, in most languages, you have to wait for the new standard.
2021-01-08T04:49:40Z stargazesparkle: I also use let* to break up nesting
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2021-01-08T04:49:56Z beach: stargazesparkle: In Common Lisp, you use macros in situations like that.
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2021-01-08T04:50:16Z stargazesparkle: That makes sense
2021-01-08T04:50:44Z beach: Now macros have a bad reputation because of the way they were implemented in C.
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2021-01-08T04:51:16Z beach: String transformation does not allow you to do the things you need for your new construct to integrate with the rest of the language.
2021-01-08T04:51:48Z beach: But Common Lisp macros are not string transformations.  They rely on the fact that Common Lisp code has a standardized representation in memory.
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2021-01-08T04:53:00Z beach: So Common Lisp macros are way more powerful than C macros, and they integrate completely with the rest of the language.  So completely, in fact, that many standard Common Lisp operators are specified to be macros.
2021-01-08T04:54:26Z mfiano: Even languages that have AST reflection like Rust, Nim, or Julia, it's pretty laughable how painful it is to write a macro not being homoiconic. Though, for some reason, Julia (a python-like-syntax language) calls itself homoiconic...
2021-01-08T04:54:48Z beach: Good point, yes.
2021-01-08T04:55:38Z mfiano: Some newer languages that have true macros with painful AST node construction call themselves homoiconic because of that. I don't get it.
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2021-01-08T04:58:16Z beach: mfiano: I am often surprised to see people come here with their homegrown language that they desperately want to be "a Lisp".  Maybe that "homoiconicity" phenomenon is a similar one.
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2021-01-08T04:58:33Z mfiano: Wikipedia: A language is homoiconic if a program written in it can be manipulated as data using the language, and thus the program's internal representation can be inferred just by reading the program itself.
2021-01-08T04:58:38Z Nilby: When I programmed in C, I used macros like I use them in Lisp, but it was just far far more painful, since it crreates clashing syntax, and the only operations you have are substitution and limited concatenation. The emacs and clisp C code are examples of such trouble.
2021-01-08T04:58:40Z mfiano: I don't particularly agree with that definition
2021-01-08T04:59:13Z beach: Yeah, that's not quite enough is it.
2021-01-08T05:02:02Z beach: stargazesparkle: Here is a small example (of an existing macro).  Suppose I want an IF with no `else' branch, and an implicit PROGN, so that I can write (when (< x y) (print x) (print y)).
2021-01-08T05:02:08Z beach: stargazesparkle: Clearly, it is not possible to write WHEN as a function, because the PRINT forms would always be evaluated then.  So I can write a macro like this (defmacro when (test &body) (list 'if test (cons 'progn body)))
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2021-01-08T05:02:57Z beach: stargazesparkle: When I write (when (< x y) (print x) (print y)) the compiler turns it into (if (< x y) (progn (print x) (print y))).
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2021-01-08T05:03:31Z stargazesparkle: Won't that cause problems since the expanded macro has an if with only one branch?
2021-01-08T05:03:47Z mfiano: beach: like i said, laughable: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/d2258e1a8f42a93c04ad9e1f11c45a87
2021-01-08T05:03:50Z beach: That happens to be an acceptable form of IF.
2021-01-08T05:04:10Z beach: stargazesparkle: But I could have added a NIL to the `else' branch.
2021-01-08T05:04:27Z stargazesparkle: Interesting
2021-01-08T05:04:34Z beach: mfiano: Holy crap!
2021-01-08T05:05:01Z mfiano: Now image writing a practical macro completely with quoting and unquoting
2021-01-08T05:05:04Z mfiano: imagine*
2021-01-08T05:05:05Z beach: stargazesparkle: (defmacro when (test &body) (list 'if test (cons 'progn body) nil))
2021-01-08T05:06:23Z beach: mfiano: Laughable indeed!  Why do they never learn?
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2021-01-08T05:06:39Z mfiano: I know a lot of these newer languages that try to be like Lisp fairly well, and it is enough to know that I don't ever want to use them.
2021-01-08T05:07:18Z saturn2: it's a really bizarre phenomenon, people who refuse to use lisp trying to mimic lisp
2021-01-08T05:07:31Z beach: saturn2: Exactly!
2021-01-08T05:07:54Z beach: Like I often say, people go to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp.
2021-01-08T05:08:10Z mfiano: There's more languages than there were Linux distribution's 20 years ago, because their authors haven't experienced Lisp, or were poorly educated about Lisp in school as usual.
2021-01-08T05:09:19Z beach: Yes, education is to blame for a lot of it.
2021-01-08T05:09:21Z v88m quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2021-01-08T05:09:59Z beach: We (me and idurand) managed to teach Common Lisp to 120 undergraduates per year for 15 years or so, so I can say I did my part.
2021-01-08T05:10:23Z Nilby: Even when you have a Lisp-like language and only take away the homoiconicity, like in Dylan, the macro system becomes pretty crazy. Although Dylan is nearly the most sensible approach I can think of.
2021-01-08T05:10:24Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T05:10:26Z beach: Our "lectures" were done at the REPL.
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2021-01-08T05:12:18Z mfiano: I would say Julia would be the cloest language to one I would want to use, but still far away from wanting to use it.
2021-01-08T05:12:19Z Nilby: Sometime I feel like all CS/math lectures should be taught at a REPL.
2021-01-08T05:12:57Z beach: Nilby: Maybe not "all", but yes, I see your point.
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2021-01-08T05:15:15Z mfiano: One thing that disappoints me is how professors insist on just using Microsoft Notepad or similar for learning CL.
2021-01-08T05:15:27Z mfiano: Didn't we just have a visitor yesterday that insisted on not using Emacs?
2021-01-08T05:15:52Z heisig joined #lisp
2021-01-08T05:16:25Z mfiano: It disappoints me because we don't have any books that instruct one should be using SLIME/Sly. They all start by introducing the syntax, which I feel is very wrong, because it gives a false impression.
2021-01-08T05:16:46Z stargazesparkle: Yeah that visitor was me
2021-01-08T05:16:52Z stargazesparkle: And now I have spacemacs
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2021-01-08T05:18:15Z stargazesparkle: Does let have an implicit progn?
2021-01-08T05:18:15Z mfiano: After all, one of the biggest criticisms are the parentheses, but newcomers don't understand that they don't have to count/balance them with the proper tools utilized.
2021-01-08T05:18:52Z stargazesparkle: (I use paredit)
2021-01-08T05:19:07Z mfiano: and they have no idea about the other introspection tools working with the image instead of sending text to a compiler.
2021-01-08T05:21:11Z mfiano: The sentence structure was completely messed up in that last message, but I think you get the point. Back to code
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2021-01-08T05:27:02Z mrios22: stargazesparkle: I think it has an implicit progn. You can check by writing one and doing a macro expansion.
2021-01-08T05:27:34Z beach: stargazesparkle: Yes, LET has an implicit PROGN.
2021-01-08T05:27:42Z beach: clhs let
2021-01-08T05:27:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2021-01-08T05:28:19Z mrios22: (let ((n 1) (m 2)) (format t "Is this an implicit progn?~&") (format t "So far it looks like an implicit progn~&") (+ n m))
2021-01-08T05:28:27Z beach: stargazesparkle: See that form*?  That means that you can put any number of forms there.
2021-01-08T05:28:48Z mrios22: stargazesparkle: That's my bargain basement check :)
2021-01-08T05:30:08Z mrios22: I have a question about test suites like 5am. If I want to use the tests to check the non-exported functions in my lisp files, then how do I do that? Or does the test suite have access to the non-exported functions in a package?
2021-01-08T05:30:37Z stargazesparkle: From what I gather
2021-01-08T05:30:46Z stargazesparkle: You could (in-package) your tests
2021-01-08T05:30:47Z beach: mrios22: Just use package::symbol.
2021-01-08T05:31:11Z mrios22: beach: fantastic, that was what I was looking for.
2021-01-08T05:31:19Z ppbitb left #lisp
2021-01-08T05:31:30Z mrios22: Thank you. I'm still pretty new to this
2021-01-08T05:31:50Z beach: That will change, don't worry.
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2021-01-08T05:33:34Z remby: help me pick a lisp
2021-01-08T05:33:57Z mrios22: remby: what do you need? What are you interested in?
2021-01-08T05:34:19Z mrios22: remby: Chances are that people on this channel will recommend Common Lisp because it can more or less do everything that you need.
2021-01-08T05:34:32Z remby: jit, small binary size, can build on various distros and unix
2021-01-08T05:35:03Z remby: I mean lisp compiler
2021-01-08T05:35:17Z remby: I think I'm in the common lisp channel right?
2021-01-08T05:36:24Z mrios22: remby: well, if you are looking for the ability to compile individual functions and files quickly, then Common Lisp can do that. I don't know anything about small or large binary sizes, sorry. And as far as I can tell, Common Lisp will work on any unix or linux that is out there. Most people here use sbcl as their common lisp compiler/interpreter. If you look up SBCL, you can figure out which platforms it operates on.
2021-01-08T05:36:42Z mrios22: remby: This is a common-lisp oriented channel, as far as I can tell.
2021-01-08T05:37:55Z mrios22: remby: you might want to take a look at Scheme as well. There are many implementations. My first lisp was Scheme. If you would like to learn about Lisp, CS, and scheme, you can read "The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs." It's free online.
2021-01-08T05:38:15Z remby: I've been trying out various schemes
2021-01-08T05:38:43Z remby: ran into a few issues with chicken so I decided to see what the common lisp scene was like
2021-01-08T05:39:08Z mrios22: remby: I ended up using Common Lisp as my main lisp because Common Lisp has standardization and quicklisp.
2021-01-08T05:39:43Z remby: you finished sicp?
2021-01-08T05:40:30Z mrios22: remby: Scheme is wonderful, but the implementation and library fragmentation scares me. Quicklisp is a library/package manager for Common Lisp implementations. I've never seen a library management system that is easy and convenient as ql. The author and maintainer of the quicklisp system, Xach, hangs out here and answers questions.
2021-01-08T05:40:46Z mrios22: remby: yes, I finished it, and my mind will be permanently altered (in a good way)!
2021-01-08T05:40:57Z remby: that's amazing
2021-01-08T05:41:04Z remby: I can't even fathom that
2021-01-08T05:41:27Z remby: there is fragmentation but that wasn't the main issue for me
2021-01-08T05:42:02Z remby: I guess I'm just looking for a reliable compiler
2021-01-08T05:43:05Z mrios22: With all languages the main question is "can it help me do what I need to do and be helpful rather than a huge hinderance, and can I think in this language without too much trouble" -- so Scheme can be good for some things and CL better for others. For example, if I ever needed to make use of continuations, I would work with Scheme.
2021-01-08T05:43:35Z remby: they aren't in common lisp?
2021-01-08T05:43:51Z mrios22: remby: People on this channel tend to be big fans of SBCL as a compiler. I switched from Clojure and Scheme to CL because SBCL is such a helpful and powerful compiler.
2021-01-08T05:44:24Z remby: hmm
2021-01-08T05:44:34Z pillton quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2021-01-08T05:44:37Z mrios22: remby: Some libraries have implemented continuations. CL is so powerful that you can implement something like continuations. I'm not an expert, you probably should talk to phoe about this, but I think you can implement continuations using the CL condition system.
2021-01-08T05:44:50Z remby: what wait?
2021-01-08T05:45:09Z mrios22: remby: The Weblocks library implemented continuations so they could have a continuation-based web platform.
2021-01-08T05:45:13Z remby: how even
2021-01-08T05:45:30Z remby: that's nutty
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2021-01-08T05:46:42Z mrios22: remby: That's a level of wizardry that's beyond me, honestly! I don't know how to implement continuations. At times I feel like I barely understand them. I think people in CL land avoid continuations for several reasons: they're hard to implement, hard to understand, and usually you can get away with not using them. A Scheme expert named Oleg once wrote an article talking about how continuations are probably not a good idea. Let me see
2021-01-08T05:46:42Z mrios22: if I can find the link for you.
2021-01-08T05:47:27Z mrios22: remby: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/
2021-01-08T05:47:48Z remby: oh this guy
2021-01-08T05:47:53Z remby: has a lot of notes :P
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2021-01-08T05:48:08Z remby: thanks
2021-01-08T05:48:14Z remby: how long did sicp take?
2021-01-08T05:48:22Z stargazesparkle: Is a LET inside of a LET a bad practice? Or should I use setq to redefine a declared variable?
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2021-01-08T05:48:36Z mrios22: remby: several months. Some ideas I didn't understand until a year later!
2021-01-08T05:48:56Z remby: I see
2021-01-08T05:49:00Z mfiano: You should never use SETQ, not even anywhere else.
2021-01-08T05:49:06Z stargazesparkle: O
2021-01-08T05:49:13Z mfiano: For  additional bindings, just add more bindings to the same LET.
2021-01-08T05:49:15Z stargazesparkle: What about setting a global variable?
2021-01-08T05:49:28Z mrios22: remby: it's like a mathematics textbook. Read it slowly, do the exercises, let your mind expand to the right dimensions before you continue XD
2021-01-08T05:49:42Z stargazesparkle: Well what if I need to do some processing before needing another binding
2021-01-08T05:49:50Z mfiano: Global variables are a code smell. Avoid them whenever possible. Common Lisp's "globals" are not true globals anyway, as they have a stack of bindings of their own.
2021-01-08T05:50:49Z stargazesparkle: Ex. I need to get a RESPONSE. That response may have a TOKEN. I want to do some branching if it doesn't have a TOKEN and some if it does. That does processing requires me to get another RESPONSE.
2021-01-08T05:50:55Z mfiano: That's what functions are for, no?
2021-01-08T05:50:56Z mrios22: remby: Back to your original question -- I'd try out SBCL and your favorite scheme implementation, and check out Clojure too. After some hacking you'll figure out what is best for your needs. :) I settled on Common Lisp because I feel like it has the best of all worlds and the people on this IRC are very nice and helpful. Have fun -- I need to get on the road :)
2021-01-08T05:51:22Z mfiano: (let* ((a (do-something)) (b (do-something-to-a a))) ..)
2021-01-08T05:51:40Z remby: yeah, thanks
2021-01-08T05:51:42Z remby: cya
2021-01-08T05:51:46Z stargazesparkle: Er... maybe better if I just post what I am working with
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2021-01-08T05:53:23Z stargazesparkle: https://gist.github.com/StargazeSparkle/9a1bac1a5fc48fcc735973471977c08f#file-spellcheck-lisp-L51
2021-01-08T05:55:01Z stargazesparkle: That line there I need to work with that response
2021-01-08T05:55:34Z stargazesparkle: Should I do another let to bind it or is there a way for me to create a nil binding in the first let and then set the value later if I need it
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2021-01-08T06:09:14Z beach: remby: Contrary to what mrios22 said, you can't implement first-class continuation in portable Common Lisp.
2021-01-08T06:09:50Z remby: beach: so is this done is a special compiler?
2021-01-08T06:10:29Z beach: It is usually not done.
2021-01-08T06:10:39Z beach: And when it is, you get only limited continuations.
2021-01-08T06:11:29Z beach: But first-class continuations are problematic for Common Lisp in general.  Stuff like files that close and exit points that might expire.
2021-01-08T06:13:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: if the variables reference each other, you can use LET*
2021-01-08T06:13:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs let*
2021-01-08T06:13:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2021-01-08T06:13:22Z stargazesparkle: I need to maybe bind later
2021-01-08T06:13:29Z stargazesparkle: I know about let*
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2021-01-08T06:14:06Z stargazesparkle: But I need an if in between bindings because I can't continue if I don't get an expected value
2021-01-08T06:14:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, yeah there I'd just do another let
2021-01-08T06:14:07Z beach: stargazesparkle: There is no simple rule about nesting LETs, using LET*, and using SETQ/SETF.  Each one has its use in particular situations.
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2021-01-08T06:16:05Z beach: remby: Contrary to what mrios22 said, SBCL does not fulfill your requirement for small executables.
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2021-01-08T06:16:29Z remby: hrm
2021-01-08T06:16:35Z remby: the jit too?
2021-01-08T06:16:43Z beach: remby: You may want to look into ECL instead for that.  Then, I don't understand the obsession with small executables now that people stuff entire operating systems inside a "container".
2021-01-08T06:16:57Z beach: remby: I don't understand your question.
2021-01-08T06:17:18Z remby: does any common lisp compiler provide a jit?
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2021-01-08T06:17:39Z beach: remby: I don't think so.  Why do you need it?
2021-01-08T06:17:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Depends what you mean by "jit"
2021-01-08T06:17:56Z remby: hot code to native
2021-01-08T06:18:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: SBCL compiles everything to native
2021-01-08T06:18:22Z remby: I don't need one, I just want one :P
2021-01-08T06:18:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: I added a comment with one possibility
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2021-01-08T06:18:30Z remby: fiddlerwoaroof: ah
2021-01-08T06:19:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: If the "else" side of your IF is just going to be NIL, you might consider using WHEN instead
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2021-01-08T06:19:45Z beach: minion: Memo for mrios22: Try to avoid giving advice about subject you don't know.
2021-01-08T06:19:46Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell mrios22 when he/she/it next speaks.
2021-01-08T06:20:17Z stargazesparkle: fiddlerwoaroof: I am going to add error information there
2021-01-08T06:21:13Z aeth: it took way too long for someone to point out LET*
2021-01-08T06:21:13Z stargazesparkle: Say I have '((1 2) (3 4)) and '(5 6) how do I produce '((1 2) (3 4) (5 6))?
2021-01-08T06:21:29Z beach: clhs append
2021-01-08T06:21:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_append.htm
2021-01-08T06:21:41Z beach: (append x (list y))
2021-01-08T06:21:44Z stargazesparkle: LET* won't work here btw
2021-01-08T06:21:51Z stargazesparkle: I tried to use cons
2021-01-08T06:21:53Z beach: Sure it will.
2021-01-08T06:21:54Z stargazesparkle: Because I am dumb
2021-01-08T06:22:12Z remby: cons will not work there
2021-01-08T06:22:34Z beach: (let* ((x '((1 2) (3 4))) (y '(5 6)) (z (append x (list y)))) ...)
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2021-01-08T06:22:52Z stargazesparkle: That is not what I was talking about :P
2021-01-08T06:23:20Z remby: '(((1 2) (3 4)) (5 6))
2021-01-08T06:23:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: stargazesparkle: I'm not sure if I have enough information to answer the question, what are you trying to do in the gist :)
2021-01-08T06:23:37Z stargazesparkle: append works great
2021-01-08T06:23:54Z beach: It usually does, yes.
2021-01-08T06:25:13Z remby: does anyone know where or if sbcl is used in prod?
2021-01-08T06:25:19Z beach: It is.
2021-01-08T06:25:20Z stargazesparkle: I am sending an http request that may or may not result in a token. If I get a token I need to send that token back in another http request. If when I do that it may or may not give me another token. If I do not get the first token then I need to return an error message because I cannot proceed further.
2021-01-08T06:25:21Z remby: just curious
2021-01-08T06:25:23Z remby: oh
2021-01-08T06:25:25Z beach: By Google for instance.
2021-01-08T06:25:32Z remby: wha, woah
2021-01-08T06:25:33Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2021-01-08T06:26:12Z beach: Google bought ITS which used SBCL for it's main product, an airline route thing.
2021-01-08T06:26:42Z White_Flame: I've deployed it to the largest nuclear power plant in the western hemisphere
2021-01-08T06:26:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: cool
2021-01-08T06:27:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's also been into space
2021-01-08T06:27:52Z stargazesparkle: lispworks gets the credit for the Hubble Telescope iirc
2021-01-08T06:27:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html
2021-01-08T06:28:06Z remby: wow
2021-01-08T06:28:09Z beach: remby: Don't get too excited.  It is easy to think that a company is a homogeneous thing.  In reality, companies consist of people, so the people who used to work for ITS probably got "bought up" with the company.  That doesn't mean that Google as a whole has a policy of using SBCL.
2021-01-08T06:28:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: They even connected to a REPL on a spacecraft and fixed a bug :)
2021-01-08T06:28:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: according to someone, they tried to rewrite ITA's product in C++
2021-01-08T06:28:37Z remby: it's still impressive, used for such intense projects
2021-01-08T06:28:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: They ended up with like 10x as much code and only marginal speed improvements, IIRC
2021-01-08T06:28:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: So they scrapped the rewrite
2021-01-08T06:29:06Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Why am I not surprised?  It has happened before.  Viaweb as I recall, but maybe it wasn't C++.
2021-01-08T06:29:17Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: Heh, nice!
2021-01-08T06:29:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, this time it has a happy ending :)
2021-01-08T06:29:37Z remby ponders sbcl
2021-01-08T06:30:00Z beach: remby: Like I said, it doesn't correspond to your requirements for small executables.
2021-01-08T06:30:10Z saturn2: google published some open source CL libraries and a style guide, so i guess they're using it internally at least a little bit
2021-01-08T06:30:25Z remby: oh right
2021-01-08T06:30:48Z White_Flame: if you wanted smaller deployables, I guess you could ship .fasls?
2021-01-08T06:30:50Z beach: saturn2: Actually, it was Fare who wrote that style guide.
2021-01-08T06:31:01Z White_Flame: exactly the same as having the JVM installed and distributing class files
2021-01-08T06:31:05Z beach: saturn2: He just happened to work for Google then.
2021-01-08T06:31:12Z saturn2: i see
2021-01-08T06:31:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: It depends what you mean by "small", really
2021-01-08T06:31:23Z beach: saturn2: Again, companies consist of people.  This style guide was not written by Google management.
2021-01-08T06:31:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: My sbcl executables are like 32M
2021-01-08T06:31:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Much smaller than most of the other programs on my computer
2021-01-08T06:31:53Z White_Flame: when you take 32GB of heap space, the 32MB doesn't really count for much
2021-01-08T06:32:00Z remby: lol
2021-01-08T06:32:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: IntelliJ is like 1+G
2021-01-08T06:32:08Z White_Flame: and of course hard drives don't really perceive that amount of space anymore
2021-01-08T06:32:27Z saturn2: beach: but companies generally have rules too, most employees can't just start using any language they feel like
2021-01-08T06:32:43Z beach: saturn2: More often than you may think. :)
2021-01-08T06:32:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Slack is 182M
2021-01-08T06:33:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: saturn2: you can't use "just any language" for mission critical software
2021-01-08T06:33:19Z beach: saturn2: What most managers don't understand is the fundamental CS result of code/data equivalence.
2021-01-08T06:33:47Z aeth: saturn2: acquisitions are special
2021-01-08T06:33:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, you can use it to make things work better for you and then sneakernet the resulting tools to your coworkers :)
2021-01-08T06:33:58Z beach: saturn2: So you can present your new language as an input format for a program written in a different language.  They won't understand what happened to them.
2021-01-08T06:34:00Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: but you might use "just any language" for the test/dev deployment of the next version of the mission critical stuff
2021-01-08T06:34:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2021-01-08T06:34:26Z beach: saturn2: That's how I introduced Lisp in a Pascal-only shop, a long time ago mind you.
2021-01-08T06:34:29Z White_Flame: but yeah, tooling is a great place to inject lisp
2021-01-08T06:34:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I think with .NET the prototype of the GC was written in CL
2021-01-08T06:34:44Z White_Flame: especially as a code generator
2021-01-08T06:36:00Z saturn2: beach: interesting
2021-01-08T06:36:32Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, iirc they wrote a tool to automatically translate it to c++
2021-01-08T06:36:42Z beach: saturn2: Programmers are way too eager to follow rules established by people who have no clue of software development or computer science.
2021-01-08T06:36:45Z moon-child: and today it's still a single 30k loc file
2021-01-08T06:38:02Z White_Flame: you're giving me bad flashbacks of cyc and powerloom
2021-01-08T06:38:14Z beach: saturn2: This is even more important because the people who establish those rules don't understand what is best for the company they manage.
2021-01-08T06:38:19Z remby: since common lisp is so old, how is concurrency in common lisp?
2021-01-08T06:38:37Z White_Flame: remby: better than most languages
2021-01-08T06:38:45Z stargazesparkle: is (append (list '((1 2) (3 4)) (list (list 5 6))) clear?
2021-01-08T06:38:46Z beach: remby: There is a well-established thread culture.
2021-01-08T06:38:55Z White_Flame: with dynamic bindings being thread-local as a particular standout
2021-01-08T06:39:12Z stargazesparkle: Er... (append  '((1 2) (3 4)) (list (list 5 6))) I mean
2021-01-08T06:39:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I first started using CL because it didn't have a GIL and it was relatively easy to get a noticeable performance boost from threads
2021-01-08T06:39:27Z remby: what is a GIL?
2021-01-08T06:39:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Global Interpreter Lock
2021-01-08T06:39:35Z beach: stargazesparkle: Sure, but why avoid the quotes for the last part?
2021-01-08T06:39:44Z aeth: seems like a style mismatch to me
2021-01-08T06:39:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Python/Ruby/Ocaml all limit you to one active thread at a time
2021-01-08T06:39:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or did)
2021-01-08T06:39:58Z aeth: Ocaml is slowly removing it
2021-01-08T06:40:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: JS is just single-threaded
2021-01-08T06:40:04Z stargazesparkle: That last part is not going to be '(5 6) but more like `(5 ,x)
2021-01-08T06:40:12Z White_Flame: well, JS has web workers, and threaded I/O in the background
2021-01-08T06:40:14Z remby: i just keep getting impressed :^)
2021-01-08T06:40:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Haskell has a decent multithread story, but you have to buy into the whole Haskell thing
2021-01-08T06:40:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: The only system that's better on the concurrency front is the JVM/Clojure, IMO
2021-01-08T06:40:40Z White_Flame: but "JS is just single-threaded" is accurate enough :-P
2021-01-08T06:40:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: JS has fake threads
2021-01-08T06:40:54Z remby: fiddlerwoaroof: it's pretty nice in go
2021-01-08T06:41:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I always forget about go
2021-01-08T06:41:10Z remby: have not tried clojure yet
2021-01-08T06:41:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Can't stand the way it looks
2021-01-08T06:41:23Z remby: waah?
2021-01-08T06:41:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's in the Java tradition of high-boilerplate languages
2021-01-08T06:41:47Z remby: they fixed a lot and accommodated the C syntax family
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2021-01-08T06:41:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Plus, it looks like C
2021-01-08T06:42:00Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: js web workers are real OS threads
2021-01-08T06:42:12Z remby: well, I heard somewhere that is a key to language survival :P
2021-01-08T06:42:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: yeah, but the programming model is pretty different
2021-01-08T06:43:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are they on node?
2021-01-08T06:43:25Z beach: remby: Homoiconicity is essential for avoiding boilerplate code.
2021-01-08T06:43:47Z beach: remby: Let me repeat this again: People go to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp.
2021-01-08T06:44:28Z remby: I will say block structure is difficult in lisp, at least visually
2021-01-08T06:44:37Z beach: Not really no.
2021-01-08T06:44:37Z remby: syntax matters
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2021-01-08T06:45:01Z beach: remby: Oh it does, as in C syntax makes macros impossible, so boilerplate code becomes the norm.
2021-01-08T06:45:07Z remby: not sure what it is in CL, but nested map or for-each in scheme can be a bit tricky
2021-01-08T06:45:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: remby: I find CL encourages me to write programs as compositions of simple functions
2021-01-08T06:45:33Z moon-child: syntax does matter, but lisp syntax is excellent imo.  (Not as good as apl, but still very good.)
2021-01-08T06:45:36Z remby: beach: D has macros
2021-01-08T06:45:47Z remby: fiddlerwoaroof: yes
2021-01-08T06:45:51Z moon-child: remby: d doesn't have macros, it has 'string mixins', which are much worse
2021-01-08T06:45:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because when you have like three or for levels of nested forms, it gets ugly
2021-01-08T06:45:58Z remby: oh
2021-01-08T06:46:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, this is goodd
2021-01-08T06:46:05Z remby: I guess this is what rust does too?
2021-01-08T06:46:10Z beach: remby: I think you have no idea what Common Lisp macros can do.  They rely on homoiconicity.
2021-01-08T06:46:42Z moon-child: rust has macros, but they're hygienic, which limits their power.  And rust isn't homoiconic which makes them much less interesting
2021-01-08T06:46:44Z remby: I didn't not look much into macros yet, tbh
2021-01-08T06:46:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Elixir has macros, and they even square the circle, sort of
2021-01-08T06:47:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Dylan also solved the "non-expression macros" problem, I think
2021-01-08T06:47:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: "non s-expression macros", that is
2021-01-08T06:47:31Z beach: remby: Macros are the reason we don't have to wait for CL21, CL24, CL27 etc, to get new features that we want.
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2021-01-08T06:47:47Z remby: I get that :)
2021-01-08T06:48:26Z remby: another example, having a let expression with mutple variable is hard to read if it's all on the same line
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2021-01-08T06:48:57Z moon-child: well, don't put it on the same line
2021-01-08T06:48:58Z moon-child: :)
2021-01-08T06:49:05Z beach: Exactly!
2021-01-08T06:49:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: We have big monitors these days
2021-01-08T06:49:07Z remby: pft, easy way out :P
2021-01-08T06:49:36Z White_Flame: I've never seen (let ((a 1) (b 2)...) ...) on one line in real code.  Only IRC one-liners
2021-01-08T06:49:44Z beach: Same here.
2021-01-08T06:49:57Z beach: remby: I think you are inventing situations that don't occur in practice.
2021-01-08T06:50:12Z remby: no, just what happened when I coded on my own
2021-01-08T06:50:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nothing is as hard to read as this: https://github.com/lkowalick/j-interpreter/blob/master/source.c
2021-01-08T06:50:37Z beach: Oh, you complain about your own code?
2021-01-08T06:51:01Z remby: is that an IOCC entry? lol
2021-01-08T06:51:21Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: eh, it takes practice.  Like anything, you have to learn it before you can understand it easily
2021-01-08T06:51:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: People who write APL have weird senses of C aesthetics
2021-01-08T06:51:46Z remby: beach: yeah
2021-01-08T06:52:15Z remby: people who write apl are legendary
2021-01-08T06:52:22Z moon-child: remby: I mean, you can declare variables all on the same line in pretty much any language.  I struggle to think of one where you can't
2021-01-08T06:52:34Z beach: remby: So there is one great disadvantage with Common Lisp.  It can't fix code produced by bad programmers.
2021-01-08T06:52:51Z remby: ah, poor me
2021-01-08T06:53:23Z moon-child: fiddlerwoaroof: I think that can mostly be attributed to arthur whitney.  APL-related c codebases not influenced by him tend to look much more normal
2021-01-08T06:54:02Z remby: c books usually say not do this ;)
2021-01-08T06:55:30Z aeth: someone needs to translate that into CL. Not cleaning it up
2021-01-08T06:55:52Z aeth: the main thing CL forces you to do is put spaces between (most) tokens, which even Python doesn't force you to do.
2021-01-08T06:55:56Z aeth: So you'd gain some readability
2021-01-08T07:00:52Z saturn2: it's a nice touch that there's a comment explaining the simple wrapper around malloc
2021-01-08T07:01:07Z saturn2: yeah that's the part i was really having trouble with
2021-01-08T07:01:31Z moon-child: I think that's somebody else who was annotating the original code and got stuck halfway through
2021-01-08T07:01:54Z saturn2: oh that makes sense
2021-01-08T07:01:58Z moon-child: the original code is https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Essays/Incunabulum and has no comments
2021-01-08T07:02:30Z remby: :')
2021-01-08T07:02:42Z remby: imagine getting that on your desk
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2021-01-08T07:03:42Z aeth: remby: that looks like the output of a debugger for someone who wrote an s-expression->C DSL and decided to make it minified instead of human readable
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2021-01-08T07:05:16Z aeth: although, to be fair, it could be worse. 0: #\t 1: #\y 2: #\p ...
2021-01-08T07:05:51Z aeth: That's why you do "pretty print" instead of inspect on strings in SLIME
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2021-01-08T07:09:13Z remby: I guess you guys all use emacs?
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2021-01-08T07:10:42Z flip214: remby: no, a few vim people are around as well.
2021-01-08T07:10:52Z remby: cool
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2021-01-08T07:12:10Z solideogloria[m]: remby: no
2021-01-08T07:12:21Z solideogloria[m]: well sometimes
2021-01-08T07:12:36Z solideogloria[m]: I keep switching between emacs,vim and acme :D
2021-01-08T07:12:48Z remby: acme, that's wild
2021-01-08T07:13:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: remby: I started with vim/slimv
2021-01-08T07:13:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I still use it occasionally, it works pretty well
2021-01-08T07:13:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: someone on HN explained why the code looks like that.  Basically, the more global a name is, the easier it is to remember because it's used more, so why waste characters on a descriptive name?
2021-01-08T07:13:33Z solideogloria[m]: I like the mouse chords in acme
2021-01-08T07:14:19Z solideogloria[m]: and I use a script that automatically adds or removes parens depending on the selection
2021-01-08T07:14:23Z remby: kinda amusing we drag these environments around, but then again, the ones that support them are not always sufficient
2021-01-08T07:14:41Z remby: solideogloria[m]: cool
2021-01-08T07:14:53Z remby: you don't miss paren highlight?
2021-01-08T07:15:24Z solideogloria[m]: I have a script that simulates what emacs does when you add a closing paren
2021-01-08T07:15:37Z solideogloria[m]: creates a new window and tells what function it terminates
2021-01-08T07:15:50Z solideogloria[m]: so it takes care of that
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2021-01-08T07:16:51Z solideogloria[m]: but I mostly toy around in acme, :)
2021-01-08T07:17:29Z solideogloria[m]: vim and emacs are way better experiences
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2021-01-08T07:19:03Z beach: remby: To most experienced Common Lisp programmers, parentheses are transparent.  They just don't exist.  Indentation is what gives the clue to the program structure.
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2021-01-08T07:19:25Z remby: I guess
2021-01-08T07:19:31Z remby: what about when you are at the repl
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2021-01-08T07:19:39Z beach: Indentation works there too.
2021-01-08T07:19:43Z remby: I've gotten lost trying to close parens a few times
2021-01-08T07:20:07Z remby: but those lisps didn't have much for their repl
2021-01-08T07:20:12Z beach: The corresponding opening parenthesis should blink for you.
2021-01-08T07:20:21Z solideogloria[m]: Paren highlight works in the repl as well
2021-01-08T07:20:24Z beach: "those lisps"?
2021-01-08T07:20:31Z solideogloria[m]: oh you mean the bare repl ?
2021-01-08T07:20:37Z remby: yeah
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2021-01-08T07:20:43Z solideogloria[m]: I thought you meant something like slime
2021-01-08T07:20:52Z beach: remby: Never use a bare REPL.  Always use SLIME.
2021-01-08T07:21:00Z remby: haha, I see :)
2021-01-08T07:21:16Z solideogloria[m]: remby take a look at sbcli if you want something more featureful than rlwrap for sbcl
2021-01-08T07:21:32Z beach: remby: You would typically have a split Emacs frame with the REPL in one window and one or more buffers next to it.
2021-01-08T07:21:33Z solideogloria[m]: https://github.com/hellerve/sbcli
2021-01-08T07:22:49Z remby: solideogloria[m]: thanks
2021-01-08T07:23:29Z solideogloria[m]: gives an experience like haskells ghci
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2021-01-08T07:24:09Z stargazesparkle: I need to figure out smooth scrolling on Emacs
2021-01-08T07:24:53Z solideogloria[m]: smooth-scrolling is a package right ?
2021-01-08T07:25:18Z remby: of course it's in melpa :P
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2021-01-08T07:25:55Z stargazesparkle: I just want the mouse wheel to not scroll a whole screen
2021-01-08T07:26:01Z stargazesparkle: Just like a line at a time
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2021-01-08T07:26:35Z beach: stargazesparkle: It is much faster to avoid the mouse altogether.
2021-01-08T07:26:54Z solideogloria[m]: (setq scroll-step 1) ?
2021-01-08T07:26:59Z stargazesparkle: The key bindings for navigation are stupid af in Emacs
2021-01-08T07:27:04Z beach: stargazesparkle: For code, use things like M-f M-b, C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-t etc.
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2021-01-08T07:27:26Z solideogloria[m]: that's why evil mode exists :)
2021-01-08T07:27:28Z beach: stargazesparkle: Which ones?
2021-01-08T07:27:30Z Nilby: stargazesparkle: mwheel-scroll-amount
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2021-01-08T07:28:17Z stargazesparkle: I'm using spacemacs atm so I don't have to deal with stupid things like multi-key chords to move a line up or down
2021-01-08T07:29:18Z beach: stargazesparkle: It is much more efficient for Common Lisp code to move by program units than by lines/characters.  Plus, if you DO want to move up a line, C-p and C-n work fine.  Even the arrow keys.
2021-01-08T07:29:44Z beach: Since the control key and n/p are on different fingers, they are both instantaneous.
2021-01-08T07:29:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I use C-M-u, C-M-f a ton, once I discovered them
2021-01-08T07:29:56Z stargazesparkle: HJKL are much nicer
2021-01-08T07:30:23Z beach: OK, you use those then.  Good luck.
2021-01-08T07:30:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: The thing is, in CL you want motion commands that move by lists
2021-01-08T07:30:58Z beach: stargazesparkle: But please don't use words like "stupid" for the habits you don't understand.
2021-01-08T07:31:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: I almost want to go to "the opening parentheses" and so I hit C-M-u
2021-01-08T07:31:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/almost/almost always/
2021-01-08T07:31:31Z beach: I use C-M-a and C-M-e a lot.
2021-01-08T07:31:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, those too
2021-01-08T07:31:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: C-M-k to kill an expression
2021-01-08T07:32:41Z stargazesparkle: C and M are so far out of the way which makes them really inconvenient because I have to remove one hand from a typing position to strike them
2021-01-08T07:33:10Z solideogloria[m]: in vim it's just a % to switch between closing and starting parens
2021-01-08T07:33:14Z solideogloria[m]: in normal mode
2021-01-08T07:33:20Z beach: stargazesparkle: Put Control where capslock is, and use C-[ instead of M-
2021-01-08T07:33:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: solideogloria[m]: you have to be on the parens for that
2021-01-08T07:33:48Z beach: stargazesparkle: Again, please don't have opinions about habits you don't know.
2021-01-08T07:34:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you're at the beginning of the second argument of a three-line if expression, C-M-u takes you to the opening parens of the if expression
2021-01-08T07:35:11Z stargazesparkle: You can criticize the usability of something without having to go and adopt it first
2021-01-08T07:35:34Z beach: stargazesparkle: That should be avoided if you are ignorant of the way it is used.
2021-01-08T07:35:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, if you haven't learned to use something, you often don't understand the ergonomics
2021-01-08T07:36:30Z mrios22: I'm getting an error in the quicklisp fiveAM library. Can someone else replicate it to see if it's just me? I'm following the tutorial at http://turtleware.eu/posts/Tutorial-Working-with-FiveAM.html and I'm having trouble doing def-suite. Every time I try to run it, it raises an error saying that the name of the suite is undefined.
2021-01-08T07:36:30Z minion: mrios22, memo from beach: Try to avoid giving advice about subject you don't know.
2021-01-08T07:37:08Z solideogloria[m]: killing an expression in vim is a da(
2021-01-08T07:37:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: mrios22: I suspect you haven't imported the symbol into the current package
2021-01-08T07:37:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: solideogloria[m]: only if the expression is a list. C-M-k kills "a lisp expression"
2021-01-08T07:38:25Z beach: mrios22: Errors are not "raised" in Common Lisp.  They are "signaled".
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2021-01-08T07:38:45Z mrios22: beach: roger that.
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2021-01-08T07:46:44Z mrios22: minion: ? I hope I didn't cause offense :)
2021-01-08T07:46:44Z minion: ? I hope I didn't cause offense ): An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/?%20I%20hope%20I%20didn't%20cause%20offense%20)?source" contains illegal character #\? at position 69..
2021-01-08T07:47:29Z flip214: well done ... bug bounty applies, here's a "b"
2021-01-08T07:47:32Z phoe: mrios22: minion is a bit, the original note was from beach
2021-01-08T07:47:46Z mrios22: phoe: thanks
2021-01-08T07:48:39Z beach: A "bot" rather.
2021-01-08T07:48:45Z phoe: bot, yes, sorry
2021-01-08T07:48:52Z mrios22: fiddlerwoaroof: I can replicate the bug by doing (progn (ql:quickload :fiveam) (def-suite test-suite))
2021-01-08T07:48:54Z beach: minion: Are you a bot?
2021-01-08T07:48:55Z minion: i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''.
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2021-01-08T07:49:33Z mrios22: The error happens when I define the suite.
2021-01-08T07:51:06Z saturn2: that tutorial tells you to write defpackage and in-package forms, you need those
2021-01-08T07:53:36Z mrios22: saturn2: I discovered the problem in my file. I forgot the (in-package ...) command. Thanks.
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2021-01-08T08:42:56Z solideogloria[m]: this might be a dumb question, but how do I check if the variable given to case is equal to multiple keys than just one for each form?
2021-01-08T08:43:35Z solideogloria[m]: (or key1 key2) form works, but it gives a style warning
2021-01-08T08:44:28Z ralt: what's the warning?
2021-01-08T08:44:47Z solideogloria[m]: duplicate key because I used (or key1 key2) twice
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2021-01-08T08:47:04Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Just put all keys in a list.
2021-01-08T08:47:18Z beach: (case x ((key2 key2) ...))
2021-01-08T08:47:22Z beach: clhs case
2021-01-08T08:47:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_case_.htm
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2021-01-08T08:48:10Z beach: Notice that normal-clause has (keys form*) in it.
2021-01-08T08:48:31Z beach: And notice that keys is a "designator for a list of objects"
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2021-01-08T08:49:42Z beach: So it is not a type specifier, which means that your OR is just another key.
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2021-01-08T08:50:30Z beach: So if you used OR in more than one clause, that might be the reason for the warning.
2021-01-08T08:53:02Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Look in the glossary for "list designator".  Then you will see that NIL designates an empty list, and any other atom designates a singleton list containing that atom.
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2021-01-08T08:55:39Z beach: solideogloria[m]: Does that makes sense to you?
2021-01-08T09:05:23Z beach fears the answer is "no" :(
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2021-01-08T09:10:28Z phoe: beach: they'll respond, have faith and patience
2021-01-08T09:14:28Z beach: Oh, OK. :)
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2021-01-08T09:23:10Z solideogloria[m]: got it beach
2021-01-08T09:24:05Z beach: Great!
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2021-01-08T10:10:09Z stargazesparkle: What is this called: (1 . 2)
2021-01-08T10:10:20Z stargazesparkle: I am trying to learn what to call things
2021-01-08T10:10:29Z phoe: a cons cell
2021-01-08T10:10:39Z phoe: whose CAR is the integer 1 and whose CDR is the integer 2
2021-01-08T10:11:02Z stargazesparkle: What if I didn't have the .?
2021-01-08T10:11:05Z beach: Dotted pair.
2021-01-08T10:11:11Z phoe: then it would be a list of two elements
2021-01-08T10:11:12Z stargazesparkle: Is that just a cons?
2021-01-08T10:11:17Z phoe: (1 2) === (1 . (2 . NIL))
2021-01-08T10:11:25Z beach: (1 . 2) is a dotted pair.
2021-01-08T10:11:31Z stargazesparkle: Oh fuck that makes sense
2021-01-08T10:11:33Z beach: (1 2) is a proper list.
2021-01-08T10:11:46Z phoe: lists are made of conses
2021-01-08T10:11:54Z phoe: and conses are made of magic
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2021-01-08T10:12:27Z stargazesparkle: (:a 1) is just a list too right?
2021-01-08T10:12:28Z frodef: NIL is the magic cons.
2021-01-08T10:12:37Z frodef: yes
2021-01-08T10:13:08Z phoe: yes, it's (:A . (1 . NIL))
2021-01-08T10:13:28Z phoe: frodef: actually NIL is not a cons
2021-01-08T10:13:55Z frodef: a list is defined recursively as either the empty list NIL, or (<element> . <list>)
2021-01-08T10:14:18Z frodef: phoe: hence it's magic ;)
2021-01-08T10:14:37Z phoe: frodef: a proper list, if we'd like the strict terms
2021-01-08T10:14:47Z phoe: lists can be proper, improper, circular
2021-01-08T10:14:59Z phoe: proper end with a NIL, improper end with a non-NIL, circular... don't end
2021-01-08T10:14:59Z saturn2: magic because the reader magically knows () is another way of writing NIL?
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2021-01-08T10:15:27Z frodef: saturn2: and because (car nil) is nil.
2021-01-08T10:15:43Z saturn2: oh
2021-01-08T10:15:45Z frodef: ..and cdr, obviously.
2021-01-08T10:15:52Z phoe: that's a special case of CAR and CDR though, rather than an effect of NIL hypothetically being a cons
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2021-01-08T10:16:32Z frodef: phoe: yes, but it's sometimes useful to think of as a cons-cell that points to itself.
2021-01-08T10:17:19Z beach: Maybe, but that would confuse the hell out of newbies.
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2021-01-08T10:17:31Z frodef: isn't that what we're here for?
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2021-01-08T10:17:49Z beach: Some people here seem to have that as an objective, sure. :)
2021-01-08T10:17:52Z phoe: well yes, and (typep nil 'cons) ;=> NIL
2021-01-08T10:18:16Z frodef: well, shouldn't be too confusing to anyone comfortable with pointers and linked lists, really.
2021-01-08T10:18:18Z phoe: so looking from the strict point of view, NIL isn't a cons - even if it kinda sorta behaves like one when put to CAR and CDR
2021-01-08T10:18:40Z phoe: Schemers will also heavily disagree because their CARs and CDRs signal errors with empty lists instead
2021-01-08T10:19:42Z phoe: I think that when someone goes for details and background info then it's important to know that CAR/CDR of NIL is NIL instead of an error purely for practical reasons
2021-01-08T10:20:32Z beach: And for hysterical raisins.
2021-01-08T10:20:51Z stargazesparkle: This has cleared up some of the confusion that I had
2021-01-08T10:21:26Z phoe: NIL being both a symbol and a list is actually a bit troublesome when it comes to optimizing list accesses
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2021-01-08T10:21:38Z beach: stargazesparkle: Good.  What you need to keep in mind is that a Common Lisp list is not an abstract data type.  You constantly need to think about how it is represented.
2021-01-08T10:22:06Z Nilby: NIL being magic is a convenience that points to a deeper truth
2021-01-08T10:22:11Z phoe: the two common ways of representing NIL internally are representing it as a symbol and special-casing CAR/CDR, or representing it as a weird cons similar to (NIL . NIL) and special-casing tons of symbol operators
2021-01-08T10:22:42Z stargazesparkle: What do you mean by thinking about how it is represented
2021-01-08T10:22:44Z frodef: phoe: tons? Isn't it about 5?
2021-01-08T10:22:55Z phoe: frodef: well, compared to CAR/CDR
2021-01-08T10:23:01Z phoe: the former means that CAR/CDR are a bit slower now and they're heavily used in Lisp code; the latter means that things in the symbol world are gonna get messy because symbols also tend to be used a lot in some programs
2021-01-08T10:23:05Z phoe: stargazesparkle: how NIL is implemented
2021-01-08T10:23:27Z frodef: i'd say NIL is used tons more as a cons than as a symbol.
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2021-01-08T10:23:46Z frodef: well, mostly it's used for its identity, I guess.
2021-01-08T10:23:53Z stargazesparkle: How do you differentiate between it's use as a symbol and as a cons?
2021-01-08T10:24:07Z phoe: stargazesparkle: by writing it in code in a different way
2021-01-08T10:24:09Z Alfr_: stargazesparkle, it's never a cons.
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2021-01-08T10:24:19Z phoe: oh right - as a symbol and as a list
2021-01-08T10:24:25Z phoe: NIL, 'NIL, (), '()
2021-01-08T10:24:32Z phoe: these are four different ways conveying different meanings
2021-01-08T10:24:38Z stargazesparkle: Okay
2021-01-08T10:24:51Z stargazesparkle: I've only used the first thus far
2021-01-08T10:25:08Z phoe: (defun foo nil 42) would be a very bad way of defining a function though
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2021-01-08T10:25:22Z beach: stargazesparkle: () is used for empty parameter lists.
2021-01-08T10:25:35Z stargazesparkle: Yeah I have used that form then
2021-01-08T10:26:00Z stargazesparkle: What does it mean when a ' prefixes a label or expression?
2021-01-08T10:26:06Z stargazesparkle: Like 'nil
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2021-01-08T10:26:16Z phoe: oh
2021-01-08T10:26:21Z phoe: you *need* to read an intro book to Lisp
2021-01-08T10:26:24Z phoe: like PCL or Gentle
2021-01-08T10:26:37Z phoe: it is a quote, and quoting is one of the most important mechanisms of Lisp dialects in general
2021-01-08T10:26:49Z stargazesparkle: I have read absolutely no books lol and am just brute forcing this shit so far
2021-01-08T10:26:57Z stargazesparkle: I should though
2021-01-08T10:27:00Z phoe: that's... a tough way of learning
2021-01-08T10:27:05Z phoe: (list pi 'pi pi 'pi)
2021-01-08T10:27:06Z stargazesparkle: It's been rough
2021-01-08T10:27:11Z phoe: no wonder it's been rough
2021-01-08T10:27:20Z beach: For the teachers as well.
2021-01-08T10:27:21Z Alfr_: stargazesparkle, or memorize the spec. ;)
2021-01-08T10:27:57Z stargazesparkle: Idk what #'1+ really means either but I do know that I can do that to sort of pass 1+ to another function
2021-01-08T10:28:08Z phoe: minion: tell stargazesparkle about pcl
2021-01-08T10:28:09Z minion: stargazesparkle: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2021-01-08T10:28:17Z phoe: please digest that one first
2021-01-08T10:28:40Z beach: Now I keep forgetting where in the Common Lisp HyperSpec those different uses of NIL are discussed.
2021-01-08T10:28:43Z phoe: it'll tell you all you want to know about ' and #' and how they differ and how they're used.
2021-01-08T10:28:51Z Alfr_: clhs 2.4.8.2
2021-01-08T10:28:51Z specbot: Sharpsign Single-Quote: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhb.htm
2021-01-08T10:28:58Z Alfr_: stargazesparkle, ^
2021-01-08T10:30:27Z stargazesparkle: Oh okay that makes sense
2021-01-08T10:30:44Z stargazesparkle: I swear I'm not dumb I just don't know the names of things
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2021-01-08T10:32:16Z ralt: you are actually dumb because you don't want to read a few chapters of a free online book that will give you all the names of things you need :)
2021-01-08T10:32:37Z stargazesparkle: This is going to be like that one time I tried learning C and wrote code like *********deck because I don't actually know what a pointer was
2021-01-08T10:32:44Z stargazesparkle: I'll read it when I wake up
2021-01-08T10:33:01Z stargazesparkle: Atm I am too sleepy to digest something as dense as a book
2021-01-08T10:33:24Z phoe: go get your rest then
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2021-01-08T10:34:33Z stargazesparkle: I can't sleep yet
2021-01-08T10:34:39Z stargazesparkle: I'm just... in a limbo
2021-01-08T10:35:42Z frodef: lispbo?
2021-01-08T10:37:47Z phoe: well, this does sound like a problem #lisp cannot help you with
2021-01-08T10:38:04Z stargazesparkle: I'm sure there is a macro for it
2021-01-08T10:38:15Z stargazesparkle: Har har
2021-01-08T10:38:27Z stargazesparkle: Anyway GN and thanks y'all
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2021-01-08T10:55:55Z oni-on-ion: that reminds me of learning C (on wolfenstein3d source code). did not know pointers for a while
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2021-01-08T11:02:16Z EZEK: hi
2021-01-08T11:02:28Z beach: Hello EZEK.
2021-01-08T11:02:34Z phoe: heyyy
2021-01-08T11:03:05Z EZEK: how are yall?
2021-01-08T11:03:13Z beach: That's off topic :)
2021-01-08T11:03:18Z phoe: beach: xD
2021-01-08T11:03:32Z phoe: come on, let's not be *this* orthodox
2021-01-08T11:03:51Z beach: EZEK: What can we do for you?
2021-01-08T11:04:19Z phoe: I don't imagine #lisp as a place where small amounts of greetings and small chat are considered offtopic
2021-01-08T11:04:37Z beach: EZEK: You are new here right?
2021-01-08T11:04:52Z beach: phoe: Hence the smiley.
2021-01-08T11:06:08Z phoe: Internet transfers emotions really poorly; the smiley could be read as sarcasm when lacking context, and I kinda don'have context because I know you
2021-01-08T11:06:17Z phoe: might not be the case for other/new people
2021-01-08T11:06:32Z phoe: s/don'have/do have/
2021-01-08T11:08:20Z beach: OK, I apologize.
2021-01-08T11:08:24Z beach: EZEK: ^.
2021-01-08T11:09:11Z phoe: no problem; it's just the issue of IRC being a poor fit for some things, like all protocols that perform human-to-text transformations
2021-01-08T11:09:18Z phoe: EZEK: what's up?
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2021-01-08T11:41:58Z jmercouris: good morning everyone
2021-01-08T11:43:27Z phoe: heyyy
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2021-01-08T12:41:51Z jmercouris: I have the unicode ID for a character, how can I convert that to the actual character?
2021-01-08T12:41:58Z jmercouris: I.E. I have 97, I would like to get a lowercase A
2021-01-08T12:42:01Z jmercouris: 'A'
2021-01-08T12:42:16Z frodef: CODE-CHAR ?
2021-01-08T12:42:25Z frodef: denoted #\A in CL.
2021-01-08T12:42:38Z jmercouris: frodef: right
2021-01-08T12:42:44Z jmercouris: that is not guaranteed to be unicode though, is it?
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2021-01-08T12:43:00Z jackdaniel: it would be conforming for the implementation to return #\x
2021-01-08T12:43:22Z frodef: jmercouris: that's implementation-dependent, I believe.
2021-01-08T12:43:22Z jmercouris: right, so it happens to work on some implementations, but it is no guarantee
2021-01-08T12:43:23Z jackdaniel: afair the only gurantee is that (eql char (code-char (char-code char)))
2021-01-08T12:43:39Z jmercouris: I guess I will just have to settle for that
2021-01-08T12:44:04Z jackdaniel: from the practical standpoint it will be usually unicode though (or at least ascii)
2021-01-08T12:44:45Z phoe: for all practical purposes code-char is good on all implementations that implement unicode
2021-01-08T12:44:46Z frodef: there are libraries like cl-unicode that I'm guessing deals with this.
2021-01-08T12:44:54Z phoe: also cl-unicode
2021-01-08T12:45:21Z jmercouris: hm, OK, thanks for the help
2021-01-08T12:45:28Z jmercouris: I will look into these shims if it comes to be a problem
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2021-01-08T14:19:43Z pfdietz: NIL punning is a bit of ancestral baggage in Common Lisp.  Scheme got rid of it, but also had many other differences.
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2021-01-08T14:21:32Z frodef: scheme got rid of most of the things that are great about CL, imo.
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2021-01-08T14:26:27Z jmercouris: I'm using gtk_widget_get_size_request from this page: https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkWidget.html
2021-01-08T14:26:42Z jmercouris: what I am trying to figure out is how to make a pointer to some memory address in CFFI
2021-01-08T14:27:02Z jmercouris: because gtk_widget_get_size_request is supposed to populate the addresses with the correct values of the calculations
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2021-01-08T14:27:22Z jackdaniel: you know, this is documented in cffi manual
2021-01-08T14:27:31Z jmercouris: here is the twist
2021-01-08T14:27:36Z jmercouris: I am doing this with cl gobject introspection
2021-01-08T14:27:58Z jmercouris: therefore, I am not sure doing it the way I described will even work
2021-01-08T14:28:28Z jmercouris: also it is a "gint"
2021-01-08T14:28:30Z jmercouris: not an "int"
2021-01-08T14:28:33Z jmercouris: whatever that means
2021-01-08T14:28:42Z jmercouris: so I can't exactly just declare a int, can I?
2021-01-08T14:29:49Z jmercouris: so yes, I COULD (cffi:make-pointer 1)
2021-01-08T14:29:59Z jmercouris: but I don't know if that makes any sense
2021-01-08T14:30:47Z phoe: what type is a gint under the hood?
2021-01-08T14:30:56Z jmercouris: I have no idea I'm afraid
2021-01-08T14:31:15Z jackdaniel: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/42398762/why-does-gtk-have-gint-gdouble-which-are-just-typedef
2021-01-08T14:31:31Z jackdaniel: second result in dgg under "gtk gint"
2021-01-08T14:31:55Z jmercouris: I see, I haven't had much luck in the past with searching for GTK lore
2021-01-08T14:31:58Z jackdaniel: you could invest some time in searching for information skill
2021-01-08T14:31:59Z jmercouris: I am usually only looking at the documentation
2021-01-08T14:32:03Z pfdietz: I think cffi could use some optimization.  I made a change to it recently that sped up an application that uses it by about 10%.
2021-01-08T14:32:24Z jmercouris: pfdietz: you're telling me, we have CFFI performance problems ALL the time
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2021-01-08T14:37:34Z pfdietz: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/commit/83ff6f0e34faaa7639ed17dd32ea80f1c4fdc418
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2021-01-08T14:38:19Z pfdietz: EQL hash tables can be much faster than EQUAL hash tables.  With the former, lookups on :uint32 were mostly hitting the hash table previous key cache.
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2021-01-08T14:39:47Z pfdietz: I'm sure there are many other pieces of low hanging fruit.  For example, it doesn't have to constantly be rechecking for typedef circularity.
2021-01-08T14:41:20Z _death: this kind of performance naiveté is not limited to cffi.. we're just Lisp programmers abiding by Perlis ;)
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2021-01-08T14:47:32Z pfdietz: On the plus side, it lets us engage in performance yak shaving.
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2021-01-08T15:00:45Z _death: there are a zillion testing libraries, but not a lot of benchmarking libraries.. asdf has a test-op but no benchmark-op..
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2021-01-08T15:01:25Z pfdietz: My other performance peeve:  json parsers.
2021-01-08T15:04:31Z phoe: pfdietz: zulu.inuoe is working on this
2021-01-08T15:05:02Z pfdietz: I know there was discussion recently about it.
2021-01-08T15:05:12Z phoe: I'll race him a little bit, once I finish yak shaving a state machine library
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2021-01-08T15:12:26Z jmercouris: ah... yes a state machine library, I am working on one as well
2021-01-08T15:12:29Z jmercouris: for internal reasons though
2021-01-08T15:14:47Z phoe: what is yours going to be like?
2021-01-08T15:15:24Z jmercouris: I will be using it for machine learning purposes
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2021-01-08T15:15:33Z jmercouris: so it will just have a class called 'state'
2021-01-08T15:15:42Z jmercouris: and there will be a slot called transitions
2021-01-08T15:15:47Z jmercouris: and there will also be transition objects
2021-01-08T15:15:53Z jmercouris: transition objects can contain guards, predicates, etc
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2021-01-08T15:16:09Z jmercouris: the whole point of this FSM is to model nominal operation of a system
2021-01-08T15:16:23Z jmercouris: when the system detects an errant transition, a guard not satisfied, etc, it signals an error
2021-01-08T15:16:48Z jmercouris: to elaborate, the slot called transitions will contain a list of transition objects
2021-01-08T15:17:25Z phoe: oh, sounds nice
2021-01-08T15:17:33Z jmercouris: the really cool thing about this model is that it can be trained by observing a system under nominal conditions
2021-01-08T15:17:52Z jmercouris: therefore I do not have to program 'what' to look for, I only give it some signals, and these are modeled by the system and saved in the transition objects
2021-01-08T15:18:19Z jmercouris: it's not a terribly complex system, but my goal is not performance or anything, but adaptability/customizability
2021-01-08T15:18:33Z jmercouris: as I will be using it to model and observe non-uniform systems
2021-01-08T15:18:57Z phoe: I'm trying to get compile-time checks for invalid transitions and such in my own FSM
2021-01-08T15:19:07Z jmercouris: that's pretty cool
2021-01-08T15:19:10Z jmercouris: how does that work at compile time?
2021-01-08T15:19:13Z jmercouris: are the transitions known at that time?
2021-01-08T15:19:31Z jmercouris: you have a description language for writing out your FSM?
2021-01-08T15:19:33Z phoe: first you define a state machine that lists all transitions, so which states can go into which states
2021-01-08T15:19:38Z jmercouris: I see
2021-01-08T15:19:53Z jmercouris: and then what is a so-called invalid transition?
2021-01-08T15:20:05Z jmercouris: a transition that does not exist in your drawn out FSM?
2021-01-08T15:20:06Z phoe: then you define what a given state does, and it has access to the info stored in a state machine information
2021-01-08T15:20:36Z phoe: and therefore a macroexpander for a given state can check if a transition is allowed in the state machine
2021-01-08T15:20:49Z phoe: if it's allowed, it can expand into proper code; if it's not, it can signal a macroexpansion-time error
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2021-01-08T15:20:52Z jmercouris: hm I see
2021-01-08T15:21:00Z jmercouris: what kind of applications do you see for this?
2021-01-08T15:21:06Z phoe: a JSON parser :D
2021-01-08T15:21:09Z jmercouris: 11
2021-01-08T15:21:19Z jmercouris: ay yai yai, it all comes back to this
2021-01-08T15:21:30Z jmercouris: well, a good a usage as any
2021-01-08T15:22:30Z phoe: but, no, I want to be able to compile my state machine into a single tagbody form
2021-01-08T15:22:44Z jmercouris: I see, that will be a pretty novel approach
2021-01-08T15:22:45Z phoe: (well, a PROG form, to be precise)
2021-01-08T15:23:07Z phoe: no CLOS, no MOP, no method calls, no structs, no anything - just LET over BLOCK over TAGBODY that uses generated GO forms to jump across states
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2021-01-08T15:23:21Z phoe: if I do it correctly, I'll also be able to test individual states rather than the whole state machine at once
2021-01-08T15:23:32Z phoe: should be fast.
2021-01-08T15:23:33Z jmercouris: that's crazy, you are basically writing ASM
2021-01-08T15:23:45Z phoe: (tagbody 10 (print "yes") 20 (go 10))
2021-01-08T15:24:07Z jmercouris: except you are rather writing a system to write ASM
2021-01-08T15:24:16Z jmercouris: you are writing a compiler for a JSON parser in a way
2021-01-08T15:24:41Z jmercouris: every time we write a macro, we are writing a mini compiler
2021-01-08T15:24:43Z jmercouris: if I think about it
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2021-01-08T15:28:11Z phoe: well, if a compiler transforms source code into source code
2021-01-08T15:28:23Z phoe: then each macro function is a compiler
2021-01-08T15:28:55Z phoe: and since each idempotent mostly-pure function is allowed to be a good macro function...
2021-01-08T15:29:12Z phoe thinks, has he accidentally been writing compilers for the past few years?
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2021-01-08T15:36:17Z jmercouris: phoe: you have, without knowing it
2021-01-08T15:36:42Z jmercouris: that's the difference between a Lisp developer and other developers
2021-01-08T15:36:51Z jmercouris: a Lisp developer writes compilers on accident
2021-01-08T15:37:37Z jmercouris: its the itch I had so often in other languages, I didn't even know what I was missing
2021-01-08T15:37:52Z jmercouris: I always thought to myself, "but all of these stubs could be auto generated"
2021-01-08T15:38:10Z jmercouris: sure there were mechanisms, kludges you could use, but sometimes a macro is invaluable
2021-01-08T15:40:43Z jmercouris: anyways, preaching to the choir is pointless
2021-01-08T15:43:18Z phoe: hm
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2021-01-08T15:51:17Z Xach: if not compilers, nanotranspilers
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2021-01-08T15:54:02Z _death: the compiler provides a hook for ad hoc extensions.. you can write an extension which is a compiler itself
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2021-01-08T15:55:42Z jmercouris: pjb would argue that transpilers aren't a thing
2021-01-08T15:55:46Z jmercouris: and that the only thing is compilers
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2021-01-08T15:56:35Z jmercouris: from Wikipedia "In computing, a compiler is a computer program that translates computer code written in one programming language (the source language) into another language (the target language)"
2021-01-08T15:56:41Z phoe: _death: do you mean the infamous *macroexpand-hook*?
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2021-01-08T15:56:50Z jmercouris: maybe he means GCC extensions
2021-01-08T15:56:54Z jmercouris: or LLVM frontends
2021-01-08T15:57:01Z _death: phoe: I mean macros
2021-01-08T15:57:27Z jmercouris: isn't it kind of redundant to say "extensible macros"?
2021-01-08T15:57:34Z jmercouris: aren't macros by definition extensions?
2021-01-08T15:57:39Z jmercouris: so shouldn't we call Emacs just Macs?
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2021-01-08T15:57:56Z _death: E is for editor?
2021-01-08T15:58:30Z jmercouris: yes, damnit :-D
2021-01-08T15:58:37Z jmercouris: EMACS (Editor MACroS)
2021-01-08T15:59:08Z pfdietz: I LOVE the macroexpand hook!
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2021-01-08T15:59:48Z Josh_2: Hi, has anyone got any experience serving videos from hunchentoot to ios users?
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2021-01-08T16:00:37Z jackdaniel: Josh_2: if you serve a big file, then you should be vary, that hunchentoot first loads the file into memory and after that it sends it
2021-01-08T16:00:43Z jmercouris: Josh_2: I have experience serving videos via Lisp
2021-01-08T16:00:52Z jmercouris: Josh_2: I VERY much strongly suggest letting a reverse proxy handle it
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2021-01-08T16:01:02Z jmercouris: it will be significantly more performant
2021-01-08T16:01:11Z Josh_2: Well I use nginx
2021-01-08T16:01:20Z Josh_2: and pass traffic from nginx to my hunchentoot instance
2021-01-08T16:01:47Z Josh_2: the problem isn't just loading up videos and sending them jackdaniel, the problem is that safari has a very specific way you have to respond to certain headers
2021-01-08T16:01:49Z jmercouris: write a NGINX rule for this
2021-01-08T16:02:00Z jmercouris: and let it handle that directory separately
2021-01-08T16:02:05Z jmercouris: I'll show you a sample configuration file that I use
2021-01-08T16:02:08Z Josh_2: okay
2021-01-08T16:02:43Z jmercouris: Josh_2:
2021-01-08T16:02:44Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/2KTSY8AWK
2021-01-08T16:03:06Z jmercouris: as you can see, /static will be handled by Nginx, anything else will proxy pass through
2021-01-08T16:03:41Z Josh_2: right
2021-01-08T16:04:22Z Josh_2: okay I can have a similar config however the way my site works right now is you have a html page and within it a single video, the video is chosed based on a get parameter
2021-01-08T16:04:26Z Josh_2: chosen*
2021-01-08T16:05:07Z jmercouris: that is irrelevant
2021-01-08T16:05:15Z jmercouris: the assets on that page will still be fetched by Nginx
2021-01-08T16:05:23Z jmercouris: the page can be dynamically generated, but the content static
2021-01-08T16:05:28Z jmercouris: for example our homepage: https://nyxt.atlas.engineer
2021-01-08T16:05:35Z jmercouris: dynamically generated, the videos statically served
2021-01-08T16:05:38Z jmercouris: the images as well
2021-01-08T16:06:02Z jmercouris: am I making sense?
2021-01-08T16:06:07Z Josh_2: Yes I understand you completely
2021-01-08T16:06:10Z jmercouris: OK
2021-01-08T16:06:14Z Josh_2: but I don't think my example is so simple
2021-01-08T16:06:20Z jmercouris: are you sure?
2021-01-08T16:06:29Z jmercouris: unless the videos are dynamically generated, it is
2021-01-08T16:06:42Z jmercouris: even IF the videos are dynamically generated, you could write the file stream to the static directory
2021-01-08T16:06:52Z jmercouris: and have Nginx serve them
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2021-01-08T16:07:23Z Josh_2: how do I get nginx to select the correct file? because currently I am just doing (to-octets (random (length <my static dir))) and then serving that
2021-01-08T16:07:42Z jmercouris: the correct file is determined by the URL
2021-01-08T16:07:49Z jmercouris: so you would create a video tag and set the URL to whatever
2021-01-08T16:07:57Z jmercouris: relative to your root
2021-01-08T16:08:04Z jmercouris: URLS can be relative
2021-01-08T16:08:08Z Josh_2: yes I understand that
2021-01-08T16:08:09Z jmercouris: so if you have something in /static/potato on your disk
2021-01-08T16:08:21Z jmercouris: you could have <video rel="/static/potato"> and it would load it
2021-01-08T16:08:30Z Josh_2: I guess I can just rename all the content to obscure their names
2021-01-08T16:08:30Z jmercouris: it would try to find an asset located at josh_2.com/static/potato
2021-01-08T16:08:36Z Josh_2: yes I understand
2021-01-08T16:08:48Z jmercouris: you may also require authentication for the assets
2021-01-08T16:08:56Z jmercouris: this can be configured for Nginx as well
2021-01-08T16:09:05Z Josh_2: Okay I think I know a solution
2021-01-08T16:09:29Z jmercouris: I guess you were trying to use Lisp as an insulation to protect some assets?
2021-01-08T16:09:35Z jmercouris: you can do the same with Nginx
2021-01-08T16:09:35Z Josh_2: nope
2021-01-08T16:09:57Z Josh_2: I am trying to serve random content each refresh
2021-01-08T16:10:11Z jmercouris: that is still very possible
2021-01-08T16:10:30Z jmercouris: I don't see what the problem is, your Lisp application just needs to know all of the content, which it can scan by itself using UIOP
2021-01-08T16:10:38Z jmercouris: it can then just randomize what video tag it generates
2021-01-08T16:11:02Z Josh_2: I have a redirect button that randomizes a get parameter, the get parameter is a random position in a list of files (the content) then when the page is loaded the video in that position of the list is loaded
2021-01-08T16:11:11Z Josh_2: yes
2021-01-08T16:11:19Z jmercouris: I see
2021-01-08T16:11:21Z Josh_2: I think I will do that, I will just have to mass rename the content
2021-01-08T16:11:24Z jmercouris: OK
2021-01-08T16:11:27Z jmercouris: I suggest using emacs
2021-01-08T16:11:35Z Josh_2: I am using emacs :P
2021-01-08T16:11:40Z jmercouris: you can use C-x C-q to edit the files en masse
2021-01-08T16:11:46Z Josh_2: okay coolio
2021-01-08T16:11:47Z jmercouris: in dired, the file names become editable like a text file
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2021-01-08T16:11:58Z Josh_2: yep
2021-01-08T16:11:59Z jmercouris: good luck Josh the 2nd
2021-01-08T16:12:15Z jmercouris: hopefully that was helpful
2021-01-08T16:14:04Z jmercouris: so, whenever I launch a GTK window via Gobject introspection I lose my REPL
2021-01-08T16:14:08Z jmercouris: is there a way to prevent that?
2021-01-08T16:14:14Z jmercouris: so that I may still type interactively?
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2021-01-08T16:17:33Z Josh_2: do I have to keep the extension on my files for nginx to determine the mime type? they are all mp4
2021-01-08T16:17:38Z jmercouris: Josh_2: yes
2021-01-08T16:17:42Z jmercouris: Josh_2: typically
2021-01-08T16:18:39Z Josh_2: okay
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2021-01-08T16:24:59Z Josh_2: in your config file is 'root /root/nyxt-site/;' the root location of your site?
2021-01-08T16:31:12Z jmercouris: Josh_2: correct
2021-01-08T16:31:34Z Josh_2: okay cool
2021-01-08T16:32:01Z Josh_2: I just need a neat way of adding new files and keeping them in line with the naming scheme and all should be hunky dory
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2021-01-08T17:09:23Z Josh_2: is there a way I can move a file without having rewrite the file in a new directory?
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2021-01-08T17:15:22Z Nilby: Josh_2: maybe rename-file
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2021-01-08T17:25:57Z rogersm: Josh_2: does the code need to be portable?
2021-01-08T17:26:08Z contrapunctus: I happened to type `ecl` at a terminal and got this - http://paste.debian.net/1180220/ (typed and entered 1, but got the same prompt again and again; if I C-d all prompts, it segfaults.)
2021-01-08T17:29:35Z travv0: that's a pretty old version of ecl
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2021-01-08T17:37:29Z contrapunctus: Debian Sta(b)le
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2021-01-08T17:39:13Z jeosol: Is anyone working on natural language processing with CL (open libs) and have recommendations. Looking at cliki, I see a few libraries langutils and elsewhere vseloved's cl-nlp. Haven't used any system in CL but family with python's spaCy
2021-01-08T17:39:32Z jeosol: s/family/familiar.
2021-01-08T17:40:50Z jeosol: Also, not an NLP expert, but my larger goal is to part some document, excel file and extract word tokens that my help me create rules (.e.g., crude decision tree)
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2021-01-08T17:41:39Z fangyrn: jeosol: there is https://github.com/vseloved/cl-nlp, but I have never used it
2021-01-08T17:41:59Z fangyrn: sorry, didn't realize you already mentioned it. I am an idiot.
2021-01-08T17:42:18Z jeosol: fargyrn: no worries.
2021-01-08T17:42:37Z fangyrn: jeosol: If you use ABCL you will be able to use Java NLP libraries really easily and those are quite well-renowned, like the stanford one
2021-01-08T17:42:53Z jeosol: I am just trying to get high-level recommendations from those who may have worked in this space.
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2021-01-08T17:44:04Z jeosol: oh ok. Unfortunately, my base code is in SBCL and never used other implementations, but I guess if nothing, I can look at ABCL and I can try to investigate separately
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2021-01-08T17:45:59Z jeosol: fangyrn: Did you mean the Stanford CoreNLP above?
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2021-01-08T17:54:09Z ym: Hi. Trying to wrap CLX into CLOS, getting error "Asynchronous VALUE-ERROR in request 31 (last request was 38)  Code 1.0 [CreateWindow] Value 0." Could somebody guess what the problem could be?
2021-01-08T17:54:56Z fangyrn: jeosol: yes. there is another one, openlp from googling right now. I just remember learning about
2021-01-08T17:55:27Z fangyrn: I just remember learning about corenlp. I thought it seemed like quite a good nlp library (it had a lot of cool papers, I don't know about documentation).
2021-01-08T17:55:58Z jackdaniel: ym: maybe you try to create-window with either x or y dimension = 0?
2021-01-08T17:56:16Z jackdaniel: while it is ok-ish for pixmaps afair it doesn't work for windows
2021-01-08T17:56:55Z jackdaniel: ym: what do you mean by "wrapping into clos"?
2021-01-08T17:57:27Z jackdaniel: while by default everything is a structure, you may easily change it with a flag, so instead of structure-class you have standard-class instances
2021-01-08T17:58:57Z jackdaniel: the flag is called xlib::*def-clx-class-use-defclass*
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2021-01-08T18:03:47Z ym: I use classes to encapsulate CLX parameters like window position, geometry, hierarchy etc and also to be able to create window with default parameters like just (make-instance 'x-window).
2021-01-08T18:04:02Z ym: 0 window geometry doesn't seems like the case.
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2021-01-08T18:10:11Z jackdaniel: I'd check for 0 values either way, that's what the error says
2021-01-08T18:10:47Z jackdaniel: erm, I've meant width and height, not x and y
2021-01-08T18:11:07Z jackdaniel: it would be easier if you could show the relevant code
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2021-01-08T18:15:04Z ym: https://gist.github.com/yvm/674f062b21c318f6235ab77e36ccf54a
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2021-01-08T18:20:49Z jackdaniel: there is nothing wrong in your code that I could immedietely find
2021-01-08T18:22:20Z ym: Me neither. Same code without CLOS works fine.
2021-01-08T18:23:56Z jackdaniel: apparently it is not the same code - maybe try to minimize it and trace xlib calls in the working and not working version to spot a difference
2021-01-08T18:24:30Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: To me, I have a different approach. Essentially, if it's designed to be used inline, then being short probably makes sense. So vec+ might make more sense than vector-+... and Scheme's various aref equivalents are fairly annoying, e.g. vector-ref vs aref.
2021-01-08T18:24:56Z aeth: But most things aren't really designed to be used on one line with many other things... basically just refs and arithmetic, most of the time.
2021-01-08T18:25:03Z aeth: I guess SETF as well.
2021-01-08T18:26:36Z aeth: jmercouris: Generally, for Unicode, if I know the implementation is OK, I'll use the implementation thing (so CODE-CHAR / CHAR-CODE in this case) and then for implementations I don't know, I'll have dependency, maybe even an optional dependency that's only loaded for those generic implementations, that guarantees the behavior.
2021-01-08T18:26:43Z aeth: jmercouris: Because it'll be much slower.
2021-01-08T18:27:25Z aeth: jmercouris: e.g. an inline UNICODE-CODE-CHAR function that #+(or sbcl ccl ecl ...) uses CODE-CHAR and otherwise uses a portability library, just in case.
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2021-01-08T18:30:00Z aeth: Something like this probably could be a library because it won't really cause any problems except if it makes something hit SBCL's inline expansion limit (which is to prevent accidental recursion of an inline function)
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2021-01-08T18:36:53Z Josh_2: rogersm: no it doesn't
2021-01-08T18:37:01Z Josh_2: I'm using sbcl
2021-01-08T18:37:39Z rogersm: Josh_2: is this for unix? What about calling mv?
2021-01-08T18:37:48Z Josh_2: yes I could just call mv
2021-01-08T18:37:53Z Josh_2: I suppose that is the easiest way
2021-01-08T18:38:15Z rogersm: If I'm not mistaken asdf had a run-shell-command
2021-01-08T18:38:25Z Josh_2: uiop has a command for running shell commands
2021-01-08T18:38:35Z rogersm: uiop then
2021-01-08T18:38:38Z Josh_2: (uiop:run-program .. )
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2021-01-08T18:41:41Z Josh_2: Yep worked like a charm
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2021-01-08T18:52:11Z Josh_2: jmercouris: your version using nginx to serve content appears to be working just fine, thanks!
2021-01-08T18:52:15Z rogersm: any of you using Fukamichi's mito db library?
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2021-01-08T19:01:57Z ym: Damn. How that comes that slime's restart-inferior-lisp doesn't actually restarts inferior lisp program?
2021-01-08T19:02:04Z phoe: wait
2021-01-08T19:02:06Z phoe: how
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2021-01-08T19:02:09Z phoe: it restarts it for me
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2021-01-08T19:03:29Z scymtym: it doesn't (and can't) work if the connection was made with M-x slime-connect instead of M-x slime
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2021-01-08T19:05:00Z phoe: oh! yes
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2021-01-08T19:29:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone have experience with traversing all of an ASDF system's components and those of its dependencies?
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2021-01-08T19:29:32Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: you mean getting a list of all transitive dependencies?
2021-01-08T19:29:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want to map over every component of every dependency
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2021-01-08T19:30:00Z phoe: oh, *components*
2021-01-08T19:30:04Z phoe: I haven't done that
2021-01-08T19:30:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Plus every component of the specified system
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2021-01-08T19:34:43Z devon: Has anyone ever used TRIVIAL-MMAP?  Examples don't compile, macroexpansion time file access, posix munmap called with wrong args, ... and that's just at first glance.
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2021-01-08T19:38:41Z phoe: https://github.com/Shinmera/mmap ?
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2021-01-08T19:45:35Z devon: QL seems entirely uncurated, except they have to compile.
2021-01-08T19:45:46Z Xach: devon: that's accurate
2021-01-08T19:46:05Z devon: LOL, how might we address this?
2021-01-08T19:47:28Z Xach: devon: I'm not sure - what is your goal?
2021-01-08T19:47:32Z contrapunctus: devon: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl ?
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2021-01-08T19:48:09Z contrapunctus: (It's like sharing that link is my primary contribution to this channel. 😏)
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2021-01-08T19:52:08Z devon: Xach: In this case, to use mmap without crashes, memory leaks, re-inventing existing systems, ...
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2021-01-08T19:52:21Z Bike: have you tried shinmera's library?
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2021-01-08T19:52:43Z devon: The bad system was smallest so I tried it first.
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2021-01-08T19:53:53Z Bike: okay, so i mean, if shinmera's library works you can use mmap without crashes and so on, so there's your goal met. If what you want is for the first system you find to work for you that's a little different.
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2021-01-08T19:55:32Z Xach: devon: right - so do you see the process as doing more than just compile, like try running tests for each project too?
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2021-01-08T19:59:56Z devon: Xach: These particular broken examples are embedded in the doc and this particular broken system has no tests.  However, I see a clue in (quicklisp-client:who-depends-on "trivial-mmap") => NIL and (quicklisp-client:who-depends-on "mmap") => ("3bz" "cl-maxminddb" "mmap-test" "pngload")
2021-01-08T20:02:14Z Bike: the tests would just be written by the library developer, right? doesn't seem like that would work to weed out poorly functioning libraries, they'd just have poorly functioning tests
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2021-01-08T20:12:57Z devon: Xach: To help find good systems, perhasp QL:SYSTEM-APROPOS or similar should allow ranking by popularity, i.e., how many other authors use this as a component?
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2021-01-08T20:17:04Z _death: recently a dataset has been made that contains the number of downloads for quicklisp projects
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2021-01-08T20:17:58Z Xach: devon: that's an interesting metric
2021-01-08T20:18:17Z Xach: some time ago i came up with a plan to allow anyone to contribute "tests" to any project, to be run when building quicklisp dists.
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2021-01-08T20:19:03Z Xach: this is it --> https://github.com/quicklisp/qlt
2021-01-08T20:19:16Z Xach: i have not used it or tried to get others to use it though :~(
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2021-01-08T20:24:54Z devon: Xach: It's not in QuickLisp but I'll try it anyway.
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2021-01-08T20:29:01Z Xach: devon: it sprung from a very specific situation and it might not solve a problem you have, though, sorry :~(
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2021-01-08T20:29:15Z Xach: sprung? sprang.
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2021-01-08T20:42:23Z _death: I too have a poc mmap library, but it may break at any time..
2021-01-08T20:43:29Z Josh_2: I have dumped my lisp image and it runs and executes as expected on my machine, but when I load it to my server I have the following problem https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2229#2229 now I don't understand why It's working fine on my machine but failing on my server
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2021-01-08T20:44:56Z Josh_2: my server is running sbcl 2.0.6 and my machine is running 2.0.11
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2021-01-08T20:45:38Z Josh_2: the image was build with asdf:make
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2021-01-08T20:46:26Z _death: Josh_2: is your image a core file or an executable?
2021-01-08T20:46:44Z Josh_2: hmm
2021-01-08T20:48:06Z Josh_2: it is built with :build-operation "program-op" in my asd and I have a little makefile that loads the asd, quickloads the project then executes asdf:make
2021-01-08T20:48:11Z _death: shouldn't expect an old sbcl to load a core produced by a new one
2021-01-08T20:48:56Z Josh_2: oh also I have (defmethod asdf:perform ((o asdf:image-op) (c asdf:system))  (uiop:dump-image (asdf:output-file o c) :executable t :compression t)) in my asd
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2021-01-08T20:49:43Z _death: an executable, so I guess the sbcl on your server is irrelevant
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2021-01-08T20:50:19Z Josh_2: yes
2021-01-08T20:50:48Z Josh_2: well I guess I can just build the system on my server
2021-01-08T20:50:52Z Josh_2: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2021-01-08T20:50:54Z _death: I would try checking how clack "handlers" work, that may have something to do with the failure
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2021-01-08T20:54:53Z erronius: Is there anyoen here?
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2021-01-08T20:57:09Z Josh_2: erronius: nope
2021-01-08T20:57:17Z Xach: erronius: i am here
2021-01-08T20:57:21Z Josh_2: except all the people who are talking obviously
2021-01-08T20:58:06Z erronius: Ah
2021-01-08T20:58:11Z erronius: Thanks for the info.
2021-01-08T20:58:42Z erronius: Now what? I've got things that are mandated of me that I've got to do something about but I'm not allowed to.
2021-01-08T20:59:04Z erronius: By my own actions.
2021-01-08T20:59:10Z erronius: "What do I do about the loopback adapter?"
2021-01-08T20:59:40Z erronius: Or usually because I never come to a terminal that I trust enough.
2021-01-08T21:00:28Z Josh_2: _death: building on the server worked
2021-01-08T21:01:11Z erronius: "Look at me, look at me, look at me!" But it's someone else saying that, but I'm the me, of them, that is who's being looked at?
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2021-01-08T21:01:51Z erronius: At least I'm not involuntarily shouting "I'll take point!" anymore.
2021-01-08T21:02:01Z erronius: Gotta go
2021-01-08T21:02:51Z Xach: Ok
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2021-01-08T21:22:29Z etimmons: Josh_2: Ugh. I've dealt with that error too many times before
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2021-01-08T21:22:40Z etimmons: Clack lazy loads its backends
2021-01-08T21:23:14Z etimmons: Try quickloading :clack-handler-hunchentoot before the asdf:make
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2021-01-08T21:45:15Z Josh_2: I am trying to connect my remote image using slynk, I keep getting the following error https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2230#2230 the file it is looking for does exist
2021-01-08T21:45:43Z phoe: Josh_2: does this file actually exist?
2021-01-08T21:46:13Z Xach: well, i'm thinking of adopting access into sharplispers temporarily
2021-01-08T21:46:23Z Josh_2: yes the file exists
2021-01-08T21:46:25Z phoe: Xach: you mean qlt?
2021-01-08T21:46:27Z Xach: no word from AccelerationNet about it
2021-01-08T21:46:32Z Xach: phoe: no
2021-01-08T21:46:33Z phoe: oh, access, the library
2021-01-08T21:47:20Z phoe: Josh_2: weird. (probe-file #p"/home/josh/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/sly-20201220-git/slynk/slynk-backend.lisp")? `ls -alh /home/josh/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/sly-20201220-git/slynk/slynk-backend.lisp`?
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2021-01-08T21:49:05Z Josh_2: phoe the former returned the pathname
2021-01-08T21:49:21Z phoe: so the file *does* exist
2021-01-08T21:49:39Z phoe: let's grab a stacktrace
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2021-01-08T21:51:22Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2230#2230 includes backtrace now
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2021-01-08T21:51:47Z stargazesparkle: Aww, ironclad doesn't support AES in GSM mode
2021-01-08T21:52:04Z phoe: hey wait, that's a different error
2021-01-08T21:52:13Z phoe: the first one was about a .lisp file and the second is about a .fasl file
2021-01-08T21:52:29Z phoe: anyway, what if you hit restart 0 or something?
2021-01-08T21:53:00Z Josh_2: oh right
2021-01-08T21:53:04Z Josh_2: one sec sorry
2021-01-08T21:53:20Z Josh_2: if I hit 0 I get the error I mentioned
2021-01-08T21:53:23Z Josh_2: I will append that to the paste
2021-01-08T21:53:41Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2230#2230
2021-01-08T21:55:18Z phoe: weird; now it's complaining about completion, previously it was complaining about backend
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2021-01-08T21:55:37Z phoe: do you have unix rights to access the file?
2021-01-08T21:55:46Z Josh_2: yes It's the same user
2021-01-08T21:56:08Z Josh_2: I will double check
2021-01-08T21:56:18Z Josh_2: oh wait thats on the remote server
2021-01-08T21:56:24Z phoe: ...
2021-01-08T21:56:34Z phoe: do you have the file on the same machine where you are executing the Lisp process?
2021-01-08T21:56:37Z phoe: :D
2021-01-08T21:56:37Z Josh_2: uh that might be why
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2021-01-08T21:57:18Z Josh_2: #P"/home/manage/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-2.0.11-linux-x64/home/josh/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/sly-20201220-git/slynk/slynk-completion.fasl" that is a big invalid pathname
2021-01-08T21:57:30Z phoe: not really invalid
2021-01-08T21:57:38Z phoe: that's what CL caches look like
2021-01-08T21:57:49Z phoe: ...oh, wait, did you copy FASLs from one machine from the other?
2021-01-08T21:58:01Z Josh_2: no
2021-01-08T21:58:05Z phoe: huh
2021-01-08T21:58:13Z phoe: why did you get a josh pathname on a manage user then
2021-01-08T21:58:20Z phoe: oh well
2021-01-08T21:58:52Z Josh_2: manage is the user on the remote server
2021-01-08T21:58:56Z Josh_2: josh is my local user
2021-01-08T22:00:44Z Josh_2: that fasl doesn't exist on the remote server anyway
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2021-01-08T22:01:00Z Josh_2: slynk-backend-tmpA72A9OJZ.fasl  slynk-completion-tmpD2D7RXIM.fasl  slynk-source-path-parser-tmp47SOVWJ1.fasl  slynk-tmp24BDVRKR.fasl those exist in the directory is it searching for
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2021-01-09T03:00:41Z johnjay: so from what i've read, scheme R7RS is split into a small and large language right
2021-01-09T03:00:54Z johnjay: how comparable to CL will the large one be?
2021-01-09T03:03:51Z waleee-cl: the only scheme with a object system is guile afaik, and that's an extension
2021-01-09T03:04:02Z waleee-cl: *an
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2021-01-09T03:24:54Z stargazesparkle: I tried scheme but found Common Lisp to be a more... Complete? Language
2021-01-09T03:25:06Z stargazesparkle: A more useable one for sure
2021-01-09T03:25:26Z stargazesparkle: I tried racket and chicken scheme for reference
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2021-01-09T03:29:18Z ldbeth: goodd morning
2021-01-09T03:31:27Z stargazesparkle: Good evening
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2021-01-09T03:45:52Z contrapunctus: waleee-cl: CHICKEN has a bunch of object systems too, for sake of information.
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2021-01-09T03:46:54Z waleee-cl: contrapunctus:  ah, ok. I only skimmed their page
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2021-01-09T03:50:12Z waleee-cl: contrapunctus:  hm, but it's not listed as a feature
2021-01-09T03:51:03Z waleee-cl: ah, there it was: https://wiki.call-cc.org/records-and-oop
2021-01-09T03:51:27Z waleee-cl: kind of
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2021-01-09T03:52:33Z waleee-cl: hm, but it doesn't seem to be listed as a feature
2021-01-09T03:52:56Z waleee-cl: ^ blame that on irccloud
2021-01-09T03:55:18Z contrapunctus: waleee-cl: they're extensions, as you say - http://eggs.call-cc.org/5/#oop
2021-01-09T03:56:07Z contrapunctus: Hm, there were more in v4 - http://eggs.call-cc.org/4/#oop
2021-01-09T03:57:24Z waleee-cl: unrelated; chicken has an awesome logo
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2021-01-09T04:10:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-01-09T06:05:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach
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2021-01-09T07:44:48Z solideogloria[m]: does anyone here use rainbow-delimeters ?
2021-01-09T07:44:50Z solideogloria[m]: in emacs
2021-01-09T07:44:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yes
2021-01-09T07:45:01Z oni-on-ion: yes
2021-01-09T07:45:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: And highlight-parentheses
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2021-01-09T07:45:32Z oni-on-ion: dont have that, but they are highlighted matching (paredit, slime )
2021-01-09T07:46:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: highlight-parentheses gives a special face to the parens around the current form
2021-01-09T07:46:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's moderately useful when you have complicated code
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2021-01-09T07:47:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: For a "two newlines" string literal, would people prefer #.(format nil "~%~%") or #.(coerce '(#1=#\newline #1#) 'string)?
2021-01-09T07:47:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, am I missing an obvious (one-line) way to represent this?
2021-01-09T07:47:37Z oni-on-ion: https://postimg.cc/tsXGpNzp
2021-01-09T07:47:47Z aeth: format nil might be the way to go
2021-01-09T07:47:52Z oni-on-ion: #| ?
2021-01-09T07:47:59Z aeth: but ~%~% is fairly unusual and ~2% is technically possible, too iirc
2021-01-09T07:48:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I forgot that
2021-01-09T07:48:23Z aeth: right, because it's rare to do this
2021-01-09T07:48:25Z oni-on-ion: doesn't parser append/concat the newlines
2021-01-09T07:48:30Z oni-on-ion: ""\n ""\n ..
2021-01-09T07:48:44Z aeth: personally, if I'm in a ~%~% situation I usually just TERPRI the second ~% instead, for clarity
2021-01-09T07:49:01Z aeth: but that won't really work here because you're doing FORMAT NIL
2021-01-09T07:49:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: O, I need a _string literal_
2021-01-09T07:49:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, there's a #.(...)
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2021-01-09T07:52:03Z oni-on-ion: um then what are quotes even for ?
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2021-01-09T08:01:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem with quotes is that I need to use one line of vertical space per newline in the string
2021-01-09T08:02:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: I also, personally, find multiline double-quoted strings really ugly
2021-01-09T08:03:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: The nice thing about #. is that you can have the reader run arbitrary lisp and put arbitrary objects into the read value.
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2021-01-09T08:05:14Z oni-on-ion: newline is new line...
2021-01-09T08:05:41Z oni-on-ion: sounds otherwise like you know what you are doing. how come asking ?
2021-01-09T08:06:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was wondering if I was missing an obvious way to do this, without adding extra line breaks to my code
2021-01-09T08:06:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: #.(format nil "~2%") reads the best to me
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2021-01-09T08:36:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: A little thing I've been working on, to make data manipulation a bit more ergonomic in CL
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2021-01-09T08:36:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/d1113039db07d1bca69336083872fc44efc179e3.nil.html
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2021-01-09T08:54:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there something weird about the bindings of variables in (LOOP FOR VAR IN ...)?
2021-01-09T08:54:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2232#2232
2021-01-09T08:54:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: It looks like sbcl binds the variable with dynamic scope
2021-01-09T08:54:44Z phoe: no, you close over it
2021-01-09T08:55:07Z phoe: forming closures over loop variables is a common headache in lisp programmers
2021-01-09T08:55:13Z phoe: heisig can attest to it
2021-01-09T08:55:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: ugh
2021-01-09T08:55:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I have to like (let ((tmp var)) (lambda () ...))?
2021-01-09T08:56:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I guess this makes sense
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2021-01-09T08:56:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: The loop SETQ one binding, rather than shadowing on each iteration
2021-01-09T08:56:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Mental model adjusted...
2021-01-09T08:57:36Z moon-child: if all you're doing is iterating over a single list, it might be easier to mapcar
2021-01-09T08:57:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm a bit surprised it took me this long to discover this
2021-01-09T08:57:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is a simplified sample
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2021-01-09T10:57:51Z h4ck3r9696: How do I get started with threading in Common Lisp? I read the CL cookbook's article, but I find it very brief and hard to understand. For example, how do I write to *standard-output* from a thread without getting wierd behavior and duplicating text? I tried to use a lock every time I use format, but that didn't work.
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2021-01-09T11:04:17Z beach: You shouldn't get any duplicated text.
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2021-01-09T11:05:10Z beach: And you don't need locks unless you need mutual exclusion for some resource.
2021-01-09T11:05:24Z phoe: a stream might be such a resource
2021-01-09T11:05:53Z phoe: AFAIR e.g. CCL streams are not threadsafe by default, two streams cannot write to a stream at the same time
2021-01-09T11:05:54Z beach: But we haven't been told it is (yet).
2021-01-09T11:06:07Z phoe: oh, yes; I'm extrapolating
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2021-01-09T11:06:33Z h4ck3r9696: CL-USER> (hello-from-thread)
2021-01-09T11:06:33Z h4ck3r9696: Hello, world
2021-01-09T11:06:33Z h4ck3r9696: NIL
2021-01-09T11:06:37Z h4ck3r9696: CL-USER> (hello-from-thread)
2021-01-09T11:06:38Z h4ck3r9696: Hello, world
2021-01-09T11:06:42Z h4ck3r9696: Hello, world
2021-01-09T11:06:45Z h4ck3r9696: NIL
2021-01-09T11:06:48Z h4ck3r9696: I'm getting this
2021-01-09T11:06:51Z h4ck3r9696: randomly
2021-01-09T11:07:44Z beach: You would have to paste your code somewhere.  It is not clear what the constellation of threads is.
2021-01-09T11:08:06Z h4ck3r9696: It's just the tutorial from the CL cookbook
2021-01-09T11:08:31Z ck_: do you mean the website or the 'recipes' book?
2021-01-09T11:08:39Z ck_: maybe paste a link
2021-01-09T11:09:41Z h4ck3r9696: this is the code for hello-from-thread https://pastebin.com/3Xxgv2H6
2021-01-09T11:10:36Z ck_: and is this the tutorial you mean? https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/process.html (C-f "print a message onto the top level")
2021-01-09T11:11:04Z h4ck3r9696: yes, that's the one
2021-01-09T11:11:44Z phoe: hmmm
2021-01-09T11:11:45Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2233#2233
2021-01-09T11:11:51Z phoe: cannot reproduce... welcome to multithreading issues
2021-01-09T11:12:08Z beach: I can't reproduce either.
2021-01-09T11:12:09Z h4ck3r9696: I'm using SLY and SBCL
2021-01-09T11:12:26Z h4ck3r9696: this is what happends when I try to run it : https://pastebin.com/GpfdLfQ2
2021-01-09T11:12:29Z ck_: maybe you could compare your settings? I know phoe and beach turn the safety knobs all the way up, for example
2021-01-09T11:13:20Z Nilby: It's normal. Ya'll who run in slime don't see it.
2021-01-09T11:13:37Z h4ck3r9696: I think it's a sly problem, because it doesn't happend in the terminal
2021-01-09T11:13:38Z beach: Oh?
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2021-01-09T11:14:10Z Nilby: When a thread flushes the buffer and there's output from the other thread in unflushed in there, it get's double output.
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2021-01-09T11:14:39Z h4ck3r9696: You mean I should switch to slime?
2021-01-09T11:14:42Z phoe: !
2021-01-09T11:14:43Z phoe: no
2021-01-09T11:14:49Z phoe: add (finish-output s) after the FORMAT call
2021-01-09T11:14:53Z phoe: check if it still occurs
2021-01-09T11:15:16Z h4ck3r9696: yes
2021-01-09T11:15:27Z phoe: hm
2021-01-09T11:15:53Z phoe: Nilby: still sounds like a very weird thing if it occurs after (format s ...) (finish-output s)
2021-01-09T11:16:08Z Nilby: Even add finish-output exacerbates it sometimes.
2021-01-09T11:16:27Z phoe: I mean, this sounds bugworthy for me - the role of finish-output is meant to flush the stream
2021-01-09T11:16:32Z phoe: and if it doesn't, then it should
2021-01-09T11:16:37Z Nilby: It does.
2021-01-09T11:16:49Z phoe: then there should be no double output because the first line should have already been flushed
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2021-01-09T11:17:07Z Nilby: It's just that there's output from multiple threads in there if you don't make multiple stram buffers somehow.
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2021-01-09T11:19:54Z h4ck3r9696: Well, guess i'll have double output. It doesn't really matter anyway because i'll add a GUI soon
2021-01-09T11:19:56Z Nilby: I experience it all the time since I run stuff directly in a terminal. But it's not hard mitigate. Also, the normal flushing in sbcl &
2021-01-09T11:20:04Z phoe: in the terminal, yes
2021-01-09T11:20:12Z phoe: but why does slime get it right and sly doesn't?
2021-01-09T11:20:29Z phoe: in terminal it's normal when multiple threads write to a single stdout without locking
2021-01-09T11:20:46Z Nilby: Slime buffers output of multiple threads for you.
2021-01-09T11:21:06Z phoe: and sly ones don't?
2021-01-09T11:21:51Z Nilby: I don't know, but it probably does.
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2021-01-09T11:22:59Z Nilby: Also the stream flushing behaviour varies quite a bit between implementations.
2021-01-09T11:23:27Z phoe: hmmmmmmmm
2021-01-09T11:25:46Z fiddlerwoaroof thinks this is a good reason to use SLIME
2021-01-09T11:28:42Z Nilby: This gives pretty random results, and worse when you put a finish-output afger the print: (progn (bt:make-thread (lambda () (dotimes (i 50) (print i) (sleep .1)))) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (dotimes (i 50) (print i) (sleep .1)))))
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2021-01-09T11:39:16Z phoe: yes, I can reproduce it
2021-01-09T11:39:46Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2234#2234
2021-01-09T11:44:46Z Nilby: One easy way to have slightly more consistent output is make a new stream per thread, e.g. https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2235#2235
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2021-01-09T11:50:28Z Nilby: You can get really messed up if you're a kook like me doing a tui with many threads writing & inputting.
2021-01-09T11:50:37Z phoe: yes
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2021-01-09T11:58:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nilby: I contributed https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/contrib/slime-buffer-streams.el that might help this sort of problem
2021-01-09T11:58:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Basically, you create a stream and emacs creates a corresponding buffer
2021-01-09T11:59:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think it's been ported to sly, but it's a bit cleaner for some things (DRKMA:*HEADER-OUTPUT-STREAM*, for example) than just using *standard-output* for everything
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2021-01-09T12:10:30Z Nilby: fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks. That seems quite useful, especially for network stuff. Interactive terminal stuff must take another path though.
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2021-01-09T15:05:51Z v3ga: hmm, after Common LISP: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation should I read Let over Lambda or Land of Lisp?
2021-01-09T15:06:42Z beach: I think you should read PCL.
2021-01-09T15:06:56Z beach: minion: Please tell v3ga about PCL.
2021-01-09T15:06:56Z minion: v3ga: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2021-01-09T15:07:39Z v3ga: beach: Ok, I have that too on my shelf. Darn. so PCL > Land of Lisp.
2021-01-09T15:07:54Z beach: I am not sure of either of the LoL books.
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2021-01-09T15:08:55Z beach: I would do PCL, then PAIP.
2021-01-09T15:09:41Z v3ga: beach: lol, ok. I have that as well. I actually came across a copy for a good price and grabbed it but I haven't touched it yet.
2021-01-09T15:10:14Z beach: Others here may have a different opinion, of course.
2021-01-09T15:11:34Z Nilby: it depends on your reaction to the words "Grand Theft Wumpus"
2021-01-09T15:12:36Z v3ga: Nilby: say what? =P
2021-01-09T15:13:02Z v3ga: that must be land over lisp.  Silliness is fine as well.
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2021-01-09T15:14:11Z Nilby: it's a thing in LoL
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2021-01-09T15:53:48Z phoe: IMO Let over Lambda should be read after Graham's On Lisp
2021-01-09T15:54:34Z Anonymous__: https://paste.ofcode.org/jTLmSX3X9UcMu8FvBr94rB
2021-01-09T15:54:49Z phoe: Anonymous__: this seems like #scheme
2021-01-09T15:54:51Z Anonymous__: can someone check if i defined let and let* correctly in terms of lambda?
2021-01-09T15:54:58Z Anonymous__: In fact is scheme
2021-01-09T15:55:02Z phoe: #lisp is a place full of Common Lisp programmers
2021-01-09T15:55:11Z phoe: as it's dedicated to Common Lisp
2021-01-09T15:55:36Z Anonymous__: Understood, i will give a try on #scheme
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2021-01-09T18:39:43Z shka_: good evening
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2021-01-09T18:45:14Z charles`: Hello
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2021-01-09T19:40:58Z johnjay: solideogloria[m]: i used rainbow parens but idt they are necessary. I wrote my own extension that improves paren matching in emacs by going one level deeper
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2021-01-09T19:41:40Z johnjay: so it just highlights the current paren and all the children in the sexp. works pretty well
2021-01-09T19:42:22Z johnjay: you should use the indentation in emacs to get the most information first imo
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2021-01-09T19:44:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does anyone know of a RFC822 email parser?
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2021-01-09T20:00:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I found one on Cliki, but its email address parser was really slow
2021-01-09T20:00:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: It uses one giant cl-ppcre regex to parse email addresses, probably a good test case for performance improvements to CL-PPCRE :)
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2021-01-09T20:26:36Z johnjay: is there a common lisp email server you mean?
2021-01-09T20:27:54Z johnjay: oh its the email format
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2021-01-09T21:27:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
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2021-01-09T21:46:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I just realized mel-base might have an ok one...
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2021-01-09T21:47:36Z reb``````: OK, I'm curious.  Why do you want some way of validating or parsing email addresses?
2021-01-09T21:48:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: reb``````: well, I've been working on a little utility for turning an NNTP group into a folder full of emails
2021-01-09T21:49:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: And I wanted to add the ability to do some email -> HTML stuff
2021-01-09T21:50:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like that mailing list archive that just shut down its web interface...
2021-01-09T21:51:02Z reb``````: ... but why do you want to parse or validate email addresses?
2021-01-09T21:51:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I want to parse the headers out of the email and do interesting things with them
2021-01-09T21:51:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: RFC822 is the email format
2021-01-09T21:51:53Z reb``````: Ah, you want to parse email headers.  That makes more sense.
2021-01-09T21:51:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: It includes a spec for email addresses
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2021-01-10T03:51:57Z slondr: Hey all, is there an easy-to-use package to play musical notes?
2021-01-10T03:52:12Z slondr: Like, I want to do something along the lines of (play 'C) and hear a C note from my computer
2021-01-10T04:01:02Z Xach: slondr: i wish i could suggest something, but it's not an area i know anything about when it comes to CL.
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2021-01-10T04:01:21Z Xach: and those who might know may be asleep! but maybe a q on reddit or stackoverflow would get an answer eventually.
2021-01-10T04:01:52Z Xach thinks back to GWBASIC programs that could do this easily decades ago
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2021-01-10T04:05:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-10T04:07:15Z slondr: Xach: ah, thanks for the insight at least
2021-01-10T04:07:29Z moon-child: slondr: nothing that I know of, but I bet you could build something pretty easily off of oss
2021-01-10T04:08:24Z Xach: moon-child: "easily"!!
2021-01-10T04:08:39Z moon-child: relatively
2021-01-10T04:08:53Z moon-child: sin waves are easy to construct.  A4 is (usually) 440Hz, and you scale by increments of 2^1/12
2021-01-10T04:09:10Z moon-child: s/increments/factors
2021-01-10T04:09:52Z beach: It is easier to use the MIDI interface for that.
2021-01-10T04:10:16Z moon-child: oss has a midi interface?
2021-01-10T04:10:20Z slondr: certainly seems a little more involved than just (play-note "C") etc
2021-01-10T04:10:30Z slondr: or "C4"
2021-01-10T04:10:40Z beach: I didn't know OSS was a requirement.
2021-01-10T04:11:39Z beach: slondr: I am sure there are systems that use the MIDI interface.  OpenMusic must be doing something like that.
2021-01-10T04:11:50Z moon-child: didn't mean to imply that it was; just thought that you were.  What midi interface were you referring to?
2021-01-10T04:12:17Z beach: /dev/midi
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2021-01-10T04:13:10Z beach: Oh, maybe that's just input.
2021-01-10T04:13:24Z beach: In which case you need to use something like Timidity.
2021-01-10T04:13:39Z moon-child: I think that's for interacting with midi hardware devices; both input and output, but not a regular speaker
2021-01-10T04:13:45Z beach: Let me check what I did for Gsharp.  I know it was very simple.
2021-01-10T04:13:54Z slondr: beach: that seems *way* more involved than (play-note "C4")
2021-01-10T04:15:29Z beach: moon-child: You are right.  I wrote a MIDI file and started Timidity.
2021-01-10T04:15:36Z slondr: Although if there's nothing that does precisely what I'd like, it may be worth the extra effort
2021-01-10T04:15:58Z beach: slondr: It is one of those things that are easier to write than to specify.
2021-01-10T04:16:21Z beach: slondr: What's the volume?  How long does the note last?  What's the sound?
2021-01-10T04:17:03Z beach: slondr: If all you want is a sine wave, it's a 5-line program.
2021-01-10T04:18:26Z moon-child: slondr: a little googling suggests https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/snd/snd/clm.html
2021-01-10T04:19:06Z slondr: moon-child: yeah I found that in my searching, it's very mechanical though
2021-01-10T04:19:18Z edgar-rft: slondr: don't know how much it is maintained but looks reasonably simple -> https://www.cliki.net/sb-simple-audio
2021-01-10T04:19:24Z beach: slondr: mechanical?
2021-01-10T04:20:23Z edgar-rft: slondr: another alternative would be -> https://filonenko-mikhail.github.io/cl-portaudio/
2021-01-10T04:22:20Z slondr: edgar-rft: I'll try that one I guess
2021-01-10T04:22:30Z slondr: I'm disappointed that this isn't a solved problem really
2021-01-10T04:22:48Z beach: It is.
2021-01-10T04:23:01Z beach: OpenMusic is a solution.
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2021-01-10T04:23:40Z edgar-rft: slondr: a complete CL realtime synth is -> http://incudine.sourceforge.net/
2021-01-10T04:24:20Z slondr: My use case is I have some other function that generates note sequences, eg (E G B A C), I just want to hear what that sequence sounds like, preferably without defining instruments or dealing with frequences and all that other stuff
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2021-01-10T04:24:24Z slondr: Perhaps I am just lazy
2021-01-10T04:25:35Z beach: slondr: That's a very specific use case that you can't expect to have a pre-existing library for.
2021-01-10T04:25:54Z beach: slondr: Normally, you would want to know the instrument, the duration, the volume, etc.
2021-01-10T04:26:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: slondr: common music has something like that, I think
2021-01-10T04:26:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: But I think they switched from CL to scheme a while ago
2021-01-10T04:26:39Z slondr: beach: something like this exists for python I believe
2021-01-10T04:26:55Z beach: Good to know.
2021-01-10T04:53:03Z slondr: moon-child: sadly the download link for CLM 404s, and afaict it's not in quicklisp
2021-01-10T04:53:47Z moon-child: slondr: there are two links; the second works fine for me
2021-01-10T04:54:10Z slondr: oh! I hadn't noticed that
2021-01-10T04:54:12Z slondr: thanks moon-child
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2021-01-10T11:17:04Z ecm: How do I make emacs indent common lisp code properly ?
2021-01-10T11:18:12Z beach: Use SLIME.
2021-01-10T11:18:39Z beach: Specifically, the slime-indentation module, but I believe it is on by default now.
2021-01-10T11:19:05Z ecm: I have a slime instance running, should I expect it to indent it normally ?
2021-01-10T11:19:18Z beach: I think so,yes.
2021-01-10T11:19:31Z beach: It is not perfect, but it's pretty good.
2021-01-10T11:19:36Z beach: Are you having difficulties?
2021-01-10T11:20:18Z ecm: It's not indenting sub-functions under a function like it would with let or some other built-in function
2021-01-10T11:20:26Z beach: Indentation is important mostly for the buffer in Lisp mode.
2021-01-10T11:20:48Z beach: What is a "sub-function"?
2021-01-10T11:21:19Z ecm: sorry, not just a sub-function, any expression
2021-01-10T11:21:37Z ecm: it indents it to the line below the function name
2021-01-10T11:21:58Z beach: Are you sure your buffer is in Lisp mode?
2021-01-10T11:22:11Z ecm: unlike let where it indents it 2 spaces after the start
2021-01-10T11:22:16Z beach: Did you visit a file named xxx.lisp?
2021-01-10T11:22:27Z ecm: yes I did
2021-01-10T11:22:36Z ecm: I can confirm it's in lisp-mode
2021-01-10T11:22:47Z ecm: and I have a slime instance running
2021-01-10T11:22:50Z beach: You need to paste the code.  Try the plaster.tymoon.eu
2021-01-10T11:23:01Z beach: s/the//
2021-01-10T11:26:13Z beach: ecm: Did you manage to paste your code there?
2021-01-10T11:27:17Z ecm: need a second
2021-01-10T11:27:58Z ecm: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2236#2236
2021-01-10T11:28:06Z ecm: this is what emacs indents the code as
2021-01-10T11:28:26Z beach: Erm, do you have TABs in there?
2021-01-10T11:28:27Z ck_: oh, there's tabs in it
2021-01-10T11:28:31Z beach: It looks funny.
2021-01-10T11:28:44Z beach: ecm: Please untabify it first.
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2021-01-10T11:31:20Z ecm: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2236#2236
2021-01-10T11:31:21Z ecm: like so ?
2021-01-10T11:31:48Z beach: No, untabify means that you replace TABs by spaces.
2021-01-10T11:32:00Z ecm: oh got it
2021-01-10T11:32:05Z ck_: ecm: emacs has a command called 'untabify' -- M-x untabify
2021-01-10T11:32:24Z beach: Now you need to indent the buffer again, and then untabify it.
2021-01-10T11:32:55Z ck_: which will probably produce the exact same text as before though
2021-01-10T11:33:05Z ecm: ok done
2021-01-10T11:33:37Z ck_: like I predicted ;) your emacs is set to indent using tabs, that's the issue you need to address first
2021-01-10T11:33:38Z beach: So what's the complaint?
2021-01-10T11:34:06Z beach: Ah, yes, still TABs.
2021-01-10T11:34:25Z ecm: I expected crt:with-windows to be indented 2 spaces from crt:with-screen
2021-01-10T11:34:29Z beach: ecm: You need to do C-x h and then M-x untabify.
2021-01-10T11:34:54Z ck_: try M-x customize-variable indent-tabs-mode, set it to off -- that's my guess
2021-01-10T11:35:20Z ecm: beach: now ?
2021-01-10T11:35:21Z beach: Ah, that depends on the definition of the macro WITH-SCREEN.
2021-01-10T11:36:25Z beach: OK, let's see.  Have you loaded the system that defines crt:xxx?
2021-01-10T11:36:32Z ecm: yes
2021-01-10T11:36:33Z ecm: I have
2021-01-10T11:36:57Z beach: Hmm.
2021-01-10T11:37:03Z beach: Let me see if I can reproduce it.  What's the system?
2021-01-10T11:37:15Z ecm: croatoan, an ncurses library
2021-01-10T11:37:39Z ecm: I've loaded it in slime already
2021-01-10T11:37:41Z beach: But the fact that you did that on the first line doesn't mean it is loaded.
2021-01-10T11:37:49Z beach: OK, let me try it then...
2021-01-10T11:38:02Z ecm: I typed "(ql:quickload :croatoan)" inthe SLIME REPL
2021-01-10T11:38:11Z ecm: if that's what you mean
2021-01-10T11:38:18Z beach: yes, that's what I meant.
2021-01-10T11:38:38Z ecm: When I do a C-M-q it indents it like that
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2021-01-10T11:40:57Z beach: Works for me.
2021-01-10T11:40:57Z beach: So, how exactly did you create this code?  How did you start emacs, SLIME, and how did you create the buffer?
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2021-01-10T11:41:55Z ecm: I opened the file as normal, I've added a slime-company hook for the file, I then started slime, loaded croatoan, compiled the file and did a C-M-q expecting to indent properly
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2021-01-10T11:44:15Z beach: Er, C-M-Q?
2021-01-10T11:44:31Z beach: C-x h then C-M=\
2021-01-10T11:44:59Z beach: Sorry, C-x h then C-M-\
2021-01-10T11:45:27Z ck_: what's wrong with cmq? "C-M-q (translated from <escape> C-q) runs the command indent-sexp"
2021-01-10T11:46:07Z beach: I guess if you do it on the first opening parenthesis, it works.
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2021-01-10T11:46:18Z beach: But only for one expression.
2021-01-10T11:46:27Z ck_: I thought that was what this was about, my mistake if not.
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2021-01-10T11:47:08Z beach: I may be wrong of course.
2021-01-10T11:47:14Z ecm: I restarted emacs just in-case
2021-01-10T11:47:42Z beach: ecm: Did you do C-M-q when the cursor was before (defun?
2021-01-10T11:47:54Z ecm: I did it both ways
2021-01-10T11:48:01Z ecm: inside (defun and on the (
2021-01-10T11:48:23Z beach: What about C-x h and then C-M-\
2021-01-10T11:48:27Z beach: Does that work?
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2021-01-10T11:48:55Z ecm: ok it just worked once I restarted
2021-01-10T11:49:08Z ecm: thanks
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2021-01-10T11:49:42Z ecm: beach: both work now
2021-01-10T11:49:48Z beach: Hmm.  Disconcerting!  OK, good luck.
2021-01-10T11:52:01Z ck_: did you change indent-tabs-mode in the meantime?
2021-01-10T11:52:16Z ecm: no, I did not
2021-01-10T11:52:31Z ecm: am I not supposed to be using tabs for indentation ?
2021-01-10T11:53:16Z ck_: I think it is the consensus to use spaces today
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2021-01-10T11:59:07Z beach: Yeah, everything looks better that way.
2021-01-10T11:59:27Z beach: Git diffs, paste sites, etc.
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2021-01-10T14:23:52Z puchacz: hi, to play with ecl (I am interested in android), I need to sudo apt get ecl first, to get any version, then compile the newest one and follow some tutorials?
2021-01-10T14:24:14Z puchacz: the manual says ecl should be compiled with ecl
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2021-01-10T14:29:07Z spoeplau: I'm trying to do (defctype foo :pointer) with several types '(foo bar baz), and I'm looking for a way to do something like (dolist (name '(foo bar baz)) (defctype name :pointer)). It doesn't quite work like this because "name" isn't evaluated, and the best I've been able to come up with so far is to define my own macro and then call it just once. Is there a better way?
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2021-01-10T14:34:51Z _death: the macro is a way.. but if it's just that simple form it's overkill in my opinion
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2021-01-10T14:37:38Z spoeplau: _death: I have some more complex cases too, that one was just to illustrate what I'm trying to do
2021-01-10T14:37:48Z ralt: spoeplau: defctype is a macro I assume
2021-01-10T14:38:18Z ralt: You can macroexpand it to see if something else could be done
2021-01-10T14:39:17Z spoeplau: ralt: yep, it's from cffi. I'll have a look...
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2021-01-10T14:39:51Z _death: spoeplau: you can define a META macro, something like (defmacro meta (form) (let ((generate (gensym))) `(macrolet ((,generate () ,form)) (,generate))))
2021-01-10T14:40:31Z _death: then (meta `(progn ,@(mapcar (lambda (name) `(defctype ,name :pointer)) '(foo bar baz))))
2021-01-10T14:42:34Z Bike: huh. that's a new one.
2021-01-10T14:42:48Z _death: some years ago discussion here resulted in a METALIST operator as well, https://github.com/death/gnusdumps/blob/master/driver/main.lisp#L121
2021-01-10T14:42:51Z spoeplau: oh, interesting, thanks
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2021-01-10T14:43:09Z _death: Bike: I think I first saw in a Kent Pitman post
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2021-01-10T14:47:30Z _death: with METALIST it would be (metalist (name) "Define a foreign pointer type alias for NAME." `(defctype ,name :pointer) ((foo) (bar) (baz)))
2021-01-10T14:47:52Z ralt: _death: I didn't realize you were the author of the dbus CL library
2021-01-10T14:47:57Z ralt: small world
2021-01-10T14:48:46Z _death: ralt: ;)
2021-01-10T14:48:55Z ralt: I've used that library in anger :P
2021-01-10T14:52:02Z _death: ralt: I remember you had some pull requests.. nice to hear that it worked for you, I wrote it for a thing that became irrelevant t me a year or two later.. the publish part is still broken design
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2021-01-10T16:43:02Z flip214: Is there a library that can translate a SVG to an CL-PDF form, like a macro? translating a SVG to a PDF via eg. inkscape is relatively costly (in CPU terms), so directly writing a PDF would be much better
2021-01-10T16:44:29Z frodef: Is there any kind ov SVG renderer in CL? Seems to me a substantial undertaking.
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2021-01-10T16:46:28Z flip214: frodef: I can read a PDF in inkscape, and save as SVG. SVG is text-only and very similar to PS and PDF, so the typical 99% should be an easy AST => AST translation.
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2021-01-10T16:47:09Z flip214: If I can get the SVG => CL-PDF transformation, I can "easily" get a PDF and write "compatible" data from CL.
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2021-01-10T16:48:37Z frodef: flip214: To my knowledge, SVG is a substantial vector-graphics DOM, and "translating" to PDF I suspect is infeasible, beyond rendering to a raster image. Except perhaps a carefully selected subset of SVG.
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2021-01-10T16:49:21Z frodef: (I could be wrong, but this is my understanding.)
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2021-01-10T16:50:55Z frodef: If you have Inkscape save a PDF into SVG, do you get a raster image, or actual SVG?
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2021-01-10T16:52:26Z flip214: an actual svg.
2021-01-10T16:52:53Z flip214: and cl-pdf as well as svg have primitives like matrix-transform, text, choose font, etc. so a translation seems feasible.
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2021-01-10T16:52:57Z flip214: "Hold my beer"
2021-01-10T16:54:06Z frodef: Well.. I won't hold your breath ;-)
2021-01-10T16:55:15Z frodef: would be cool though.
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2021-01-10T17:20:20Z Xach: For simple SVGs, vecto could render to PNG.
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2021-01-10T17:20:41Z Xach: It's not automatic, you would need to parse the paths in the SVG. But the drawing part after that is not too tricky.
2021-01-10T17:21:12Z Xach: And I'm defining "simple SVGs" as "ones the Vecto image model could support" to make it easy
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2021-01-10T17:55:41Z mfiano: is it specified anywhere which accessor will be invoked? (defclass foo () ((%a1 :reader a :initform 1) (%a2 :reader a :initform 2)))
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2021-01-10T18:03:55Z Inline: the last one ?
2021-01-10T18:05:15Z _death: probably unspecified
2021-01-10T18:05:22Z Inline: welp
2021-01-10T18:05:28Z Inline: sequential ?
2021-01-10T18:05:40Z Inline: like it generating two defmethods one after the other ?
2021-01-10T18:05:57Z Inline: and the last one is the winning ?
2021-01-10T18:06:18Z mfiano: unspecified is what i assumed after searching. thanks
2021-01-10T18:06:40Z _death: Inline: the question is whether you're willing to bet that all implementations follow your logic
2021-01-10T18:06:48Z Inline: nope
2021-01-10T18:06:52Z Inline: i won't bet on that
2021-01-10T18:06:53Z Inline: lol
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2021-01-10T18:12:56Z _death: my first thought was that if the spec had anything to say about it, it would be to signal an error
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2021-01-10T20:14:33Z puchacz: jackdaniel, I started playing with ECL:) if I make it run my application, does it mean that it will be possible to create a library / executable from it?
2021-01-10T20:15:41Z puchacz: if I carefully track all (load... ) forms outside normal package management
2021-01-10T20:15:43Z shka_: puchacz: yes
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2021-01-10T20:15:51Z puchacz: great, thanks :
2021-01-10T20:15:53Z puchacz: :)
2021-01-10T20:16:16Z shka_: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/System-building.html
2021-01-10T20:16:42Z shka_: it can make static lib, shared lib, executable
2021-01-10T20:17:23Z shka_: i never tried to build something that loads anything outside of asdf though
2021-01-10T20:17:23Z puchacz: shka_: yes, I read it today for the first time, and I started playing. but I know from experience that some files are loaded in a non-standard way, e.g. sly contribs. and I sinned as well by using bare (load ) in few places.
2021-01-10T20:18:10Z puchacz: so I will need to track it all, but when I do it, you are saying there are no obstacles to creating a binary
2021-01-10T20:18:15Z shka_: puchacz: well, if you build just asdf system, sly will be ignored
2021-01-10T20:18:15Z puchacz: so I am happy
2021-01-10T20:18:27Z shka_: IIRC
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2021-01-10T20:18:58Z shka_: it is slightly different from save-lisp-and-die in this regard
2021-01-10T20:19:18Z puchacz: yes, save-lisp-and-die just saves everything that is in memory, no matter how it was loaded.
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2021-01-10T20:19:28Z shka_: exactly
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2021-01-10T20:19:57Z shka_: while ECL build-system, as far i can tell, works almost like a UNIX make
2021-01-10T20:20:29Z puchacz: but sly is fine too, I know how to force load all contribs. there are also programmatic calls to the compiler, I know for sure this is how web templating works (it creates functions that print out web pages)
2021-01-10T20:20:51Z shka_: at the runtime?
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2021-01-10T20:20:59Z puchacz: yes, once
2021-01-10T20:21:02Z puchacz: so I am good too
2021-01-10T20:21:12Z shka_: hmmm
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2021-01-10T20:21:27Z puchacz: I do it in sbcl before dumping the image, so I don't need to deploy my core with template files
2021-01-10T20:21:28Z shka_: calling compile at the runtime is almost as evil as eval
2021-01-10T20:21:30Z shka_: :-)
2021-01-10T20:21:55Z shka_: anyway, glad you have a solution at hand
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2021-01-10T20:22:20Z puchacz: who says there is no eval somewhere? I did not add eval (for what I remember), but it may be there somewhere :)
2021-01-10T20:22:31Z shka_: heh
2021-01-10T20:22:38Z shka_: eval should work fine though
2021-01-10T20:22:49Z shka_: in fact, i think that compile should work as well
2021-01-10T20:23:04Z shka_: IIRC ECL compile does not compile to C, but to ad bytecode
2021-01-10T20:23:31Z puchacz: but you say as long as it runs with "development mode" startup (with quicklisp etc), I will be able to create the right sequence of binary files.
2021-01-10T20:24:34Z shka_: as long as you build systems defined with asdf i think it should be fine
2021-01-10T20:24:51Z jackdaniel: you may compile a "bundle" straiggt from asd definitions
2021-01-10T20:24:57Z shka_: right
2021-01-10T20:24:59Z shka_: exactly this
2021-01-10T20:25:05Z puchacz: 95% is, other 5% are manual calls to load and oddities like sly's contribs
2021-01-10T20:25:08Z jackdaniel: im on phone
2021-01-10T20:25:14Z puchacz: hello :)
2021-01-10T20:25:18Z jackdaniel: hi
2021-01-10T20:25:51Z jackdaniel: manual has a description of compilation
2021-01-10T20:26:01Z jackdaniel: with pictures! ;)
2021-01-10T20:26:52Z puchacz: yes, I read it today for the first time. I am impressed :) and is it true that if I can make ECL run my application, there exists the right sequence of binary files that be produced to make my application binary?
2021-01-10T20:26:53Z shka_: puchacz: i also think that load may also work
2021-01-10T20:27:31Z shka_: if paths are resolved correctly
2021-01-10T20:27:56Z jackdaniel: I dont understand the question
2021-01-10T20:28:18Z shka_: jackdaniel: puchacz has a system that calls LOAD at the runtime
2021-01-10T20:28:35Z shka_: IIRC in such case ECL will simply use bytecode compiler
2021-01-10T20:28:48Z puchacz: yes, but I can make it call all loads on startup, this is what I do for sbcl save-and-die
2021-01-10T20:28:54Z jackdaniel: that's not a problem, load does not compile
2021-01-10T20:28:59Z shka_: oh, ok
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2021-01-10T20:29:02Z shka_: makes sense
2021-01-10T20:29:09Z shka_: so it should just wokr
2021-01-10T20:29:14Z puchacz: okay, great, thanks :)
2021-01-10T20:29:51Z jackdaniel: but as shka_  said, compiler is available at all times
2021-01-10T20:30:23Z puchacz: sure, then it should work, whatever hacks I discover in the code
2021-01-10T20:30:28Z jackdaniel: if gcc is absent, call (ext:install-bytecodes-compiler)
2021-01-10T20:30:50Z jackdaniel: should be a restart I suppose
2021-01-10T20:30:51Z shka_: yeah, performance can be hard to predict in such case though
2021-01-10T20:31:14Z shka_: but it may not even matter
2021-01-10T20:31:29Z shka_: anyway, have a good evening
2021-01-10T20:31:49Z puchacz: thanks, you too
2021-01-10T20:33:51Z jackdaniel: \o
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2021-01-10T20:55:08Z ralt: oh hey
2021-01-10T20:55:23Z ralt: I never tried to make a static binary with ECL
2021-01-10T20:55:36Z ralt: I think
2021-01-10T20:56:01Z puchacz: I saw examples - you can even create a binary for arm/android
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2021-01-10T23:41:49Z stargazesparkle: I've been reading the lisp book someone sent me a few days ago and just wow
2021-01-10T23:42:17Z stargazesparkle: It's amazing how I managed to get myself as far as I did without considering what it was I was doing or why I was doing it
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2021-01-11T00:03:10Z charles`: What book?
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2021-01-11T00:19:57Z stargazesparkle: Practical Common Lisp
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2021-01-11T00:27:40Z White_Flame: yep, PCL is quite highly regarded
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2021-01-11T00:28:45Z charles`: I'm quite embarrassed to say that I have yet to read any lisp book.
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2021-01-11T00:32:55Z White_Flame: charles`: different strokes for different folks
2021-01-11T00:33:48Z White_Flame: no shame in htat
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2021-01-11T01:06:44Z charles`: Is there a way to ignore a package's nicknames in the local package without entering the debugger?
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2021-01-11T04:02:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-01-11T07:15:12Z flip214: charles`: do you want in-package?
2021-01-11T07:15:17Z flip214: minion: in-package
2021-01-11T07:15:21Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``in-package''.
2021-01-11T07:15:34Z flip214: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_in_pkg.htm
2021-01-11T07:15:36Z flip214: charles`: ^^
2021-01-11T07:16:21Z flip214: you first define a package that :USEs some other packages, then go IN-PACKAGE and have the :USEd package symbols available without package prefix.
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2021-01-11T07:40:19Z beach: flip214: 1.  It is specbot, not minion who knows about the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2021-01-11T07:40:23Z beach: clhs in-package
2021-01-11T07:40:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_in_pkg.htm
2021-01-11T07:41:13Z beach: flip214: 2.  Perhaps you should warn about the risk of :USE-ing packages other than the CL package.
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2021-01-11T07:48:01Z ck_: this particular use case read to me like using a package purely as a debugging environment, shortening the names you see.
2021-01-11T07:48:44Z beach: Oh, I didn't check the use case very well.  Sorry.
2021-01-11T07:54:25Z flip214: beach: you're right, 2 is important. And I don't think this is _for_ debugging, only that doing it wrong _causes_ debugging ;/
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2021-01-11T07:55:04Z beach: Sounds plausible.
2021-01-11T07:55:11Z ck_: It's actually me who misread it -- in my mind it said "when entering the debugger" instead of "without entering the debugger"
2021-01-11T07:55:14Z ck_: sorry about that
2021-01-11T07:55:44Z beach: ck_: Maybe you are turning dyslexic, just like I am?
2021-01-11T07:57:46Z phoe: morning
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2021-01-11T08:00:28Z ck_: beach: maybe. There are worse fates.
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2021-01-11T08:03:00Z beach: Hey phoe.
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2021-01-11T08:03:24Z beach: ck_: Yes, I agree.  It is possible to compensate a lot with spell checkers and abbrev processors.
2021-01-11T08:04:33Z beach: But things take longer.  I get warnings about undefined functions and variables, but I can't tell that I misspelled the names.
2021-01-11T08:05:33Z flip214: one of my favourite spelling tricks (reviewing books) is to get a count of used words.... everything written only once is suspect, and twice needs a clear look as well
2021-01-11T08:05:49Z beach: Clever.
2021-01-11T08:06:47Z ck_: yes, that's a nice move.  Also good for a histogram of non-alphanumeric characters, telling you whether some things are unbalanced
2021-01-11T08:06:53Z flip214: you think so? Thanks. I thought that's common.
2021-01-11T08:07:39Z flip214: but as I'm reviewing books and papers more or less regularly I might have automated a few bits more than other people, yeah.
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2021-01-11T09:14:56Z ralt: I find :USE pretty useful when using package-inferred-systems, for other internal packages
2021-01-11T09:15:40Z ralt: for external systems I always use `(:import-from :other-package #:sym1 #:sym2)` though.
2021-01-11T09:16:58Z beach: Another reason not to use package-inferred systems.
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2021-01-11T09:17:58Z ralt: I go even further: I use wild-package-inferred-systems :)
2021-01-11T09:18:54Z ralt: my .asd file has `:depends-on (("mysystem/*"))`
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2021-01-11T11:19:18Z ldbeth: godd evening
2021-01-11T11:25:03Z ldbeth: is there a alogrithm find n highest rating elements given a list and a rating function?
2021-01-11T11:26:18Z phoe: ldbeth: (subseq (sort (copy-seq ...) ...) 0 ...) ?
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2021-01-11T11:34:48Z jmercouris: anyone know of forum software written in Lisp?
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2021-01-11T11:34:57Z jmercouris: something like Discourse? PHPBB?
2021-01-11T11:35:57Z ldbeth: phoe: seems there's no more clever way unless use something like a circular buffer.
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2021-01-11T11:42:42Z phoe: well, you need to sort the elements of the circular buffer anyway, I don't think this can be done better than in nlogn
2021-01-11T11:43:12Z phoe: you could possibly adapt quicksort to not care about the insignificant parts and only fully sort the N greatest elements
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2021-01-11T12:24:33Z _death: surprised that phoe didn't suggest a heap
2021-01-11T12:25:19Z phoe: _death: a heap will be nlogn anyway
2021-01-11T12:25:43Z phoe: could as well just sort the whole or a part of the thing, it'll be equivalent and not need a prioqueue
2021-01-11T12:25:45Z _death: phoe: not necessarily.. you don't insert all the items immediately
2021-01-11T12:25:54Z phoe: oh! hmmmmmm
2021-01-11T12:25:58Z phoe: immediately? what do you mean?
2021-01-11T12:26:30Z _death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_sorting#Heap-based_solution
2021-01-11T12:27:26Z jmercouris: might as well use a bubble sort if partial sorting is acceptable :-D
2021-01-11T12:27:44Z jmercouris: just in case that wasn't clear, it was a joke
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2021-01-11T14:38:38Z jackdaniel: Xach: would you find reasonable adding a system to ql that has only static files (namely ttf fonts + license)?
2021-01-11T14:40:24Z jackdaniel: context: I want to provide for McCLIM default fonts, but I don't want to clobber the repository
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2021-01-11T14:55:51Z _death: wouldn't it have an .asd file, therefore lisp? :)
2021-01-11T14:57:40Z edgar-rft starts writing .asd files for all his ttf fonts right now...
2021-01-11T14:58:12Z _death: not for your music and video collections?
2021-01-11T14:58:32Z jackdaniel: it would! that's the point :)
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2021-01-11T14:59:53Z edgar-rft: next task would be writing bug reports to the maintainers of ttf fonts for missing .asd files
2021-01-11T15:01:08Z _death: btw jackdaniel I recently wrote some small patches to mcclim.. for some of them it's clear to me that more extensives changes are required if it's not half-arsed.. but maybe you'd like to check them out?
2021-01-11T15:01:26Z jackdaniel: _death: sure
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2021-01-11T15:01:53Z jackdaniel: send a pull request with a header `draft: ' if they are not complete
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2021-01-11T15:02:42Z _death: well, they are a bunch of changes that could likely be split to multiple pull requests
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2021-01-11T15:03:24Z jackdaniel: that's fine too
2021-01-11T15:03:39Z jackdaniel: (but if they are like 5-line changes, I'd rather have them as separate commits in a single pr)
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2021-01-11T15:04:45Z _death: ok, I'll change have a single PR.. also, it seems a text editor pane with drei lisp syntax is extremely slow for some reason, even for <20 lines of simple code?
2021-01-11T15:06:47Z _death: jackdaniel: pull request done
2021-01-11T15:06:50Z jackdaniel: thanks
2021-01-11T15:07:21Z jackdaniel: I'm currently busy because I'm rewriting the renderer for clx backend (to default to xrender and for double buffering)
2021-01-11T15:07:38Z jackdaniel: so I may not look at it immedietely
2021-01-11T15:07:41Z _death: sure, I'm just playing around
2021-01-11T15:10:12Z edgar-rft: Totally offtopic, but at a radio station here a guy from the local computer club does audio editing with sox and makefiles (no joke), why not using asdf for audio editing? If someone's seriously interested, I'm on #lispcafe, too.
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2021-01-11T15:15:19Z Xach: jackdaniel: yes - but it would be nice if 1) it was not too large and 2) it did not change much (new versions with big changes could be new projects?)
2021-01-11T15:16:52Z jackdaniel: Xach: assuming i.e dejavu, it is 12MB, it probably wouldn't change at all (unless new version of said fonts is published)
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2021-01-11T15:18:04Z Xach: jackdaniel: i think that is entirely fine and good
2021-01-11T15:18:14Z Xach: jackdaniel: i wanted to do something similar so i'm glad someone else is!
2021-01-11T15:18:24Z Xach: i wanted to have some guaranteed fonts visible for vecto toys
2021-01-11T15:19:26Z jackdaniel: great, thanks for the feedback. I'll let you know when I have the system (ditto, I need to finish something first)
2021-01-11T15:19:57Z Xach: jackdaniel: might be nice to have a way other than system-relative-pathname to find the files
2021-01-11T15:20:51Z jackdaniel: cl-dejavu:list-fonts cl-dejavu:font-pathname ;?
2021-01-11T15:21:18Z Xach: jackdaniel: i like that
2021-01-11T15:21:29Z jackdaniel: alright, I'll keep that in mind
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2021-01-11T15:26:59Z _death: maybe a ql-fonts system with an interface and ql-fonts-dejavu package for that particular family
2021-01-11T15:28:11Z _death: the ql-fonts system could look for the fonts in the system, and install the particular package if necessary
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2021-01-11T15:33:36Z Xach: that sounds like a 2.0 version of something
2021-01-11T15:33:46Z Xach: i would rather see something simpler first, like jackdaniel describes
2021-01-11T15:34:21Z Xach: i mean your second idea, not the first - though i don't love the "ql-" prefix on things that aren't "truly" part of quicklisp
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2021-01-11T15:39:09Z _death: sure
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2021-01-11T15:54:20Z fangyrn: so what are the problems with ecl, if I were to start investing time in it? what problems have you guys had?
2021-01-11T15:54:39Z jackdaniel: generic function dispatch is not-so-great™
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2021-01-11T15:55:06Z jackdaniel: and compilation time is also lacking
2021-01-11T15:55:19Z jackdaniel: other than that works for me ,)
2021-01-11T15:56:14Z beach: jackdaniel: Do you have ideas for improving generic dispatch?
2021-01-11T15:56:25Z jackdaniel: yes, most of them are based on your paper
2021-01-11T15:56:37Z fangyrn: sorry to interrupt, but what paper?
2021-01-11T15:56:53Z beach: jackdaniel: So you would be willing to assign unique numbers to your classes?
2021-01-11T15:56:54Z jackdaniel: beach wrote a paper about generic function dispatch techniques
2021-01-11T15:57:06Z jackdaniel: beach: I already implemented that before the last release
2021-01-11T15:57:12Z beach: Nice!
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2021-01-11T15:57:49Z beach: fangyrn: http://metamodular.com/SICL/generic-dispatch.pdf
2021-01-11T15:58:00Z jackdaniel: I'm more worried about compilation at run time, but I suppose that some data could be gathered and compilation could be batched when the user calls compile-foo
2021-01-11T15:58:22Z jackdaniel: I did not think this through yet
2021-01-11T15:58:40Z beach: Unrelated to generic-dispatch?
2021-01-11T15:59:09Z beach: Or, are you talking about creating discriminating function using the compiler?
2021-01-11T15:59:37Z jackdaniel: yes, about that
2021-01-11T15:59:51Z beach: I see.
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2021-01-11T16:03:19Z beach: fangyrn: Do you feel comfortable attacking a problem like generic dispatch?
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2021-01-11T16:10:49Z jackdaniel: Xach: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1963
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2021-01-11T16:15:31Z Xach: tusen tack
2021-01-11T16:15:32Z jeosol: Good morning everyone
2021-01-11T16:15:50Z beach: Hello jeosol.
2021-01-11T16:16:10Z jeosol: beach: thanks beach
2021-01-11T16:16:34Z jeosol: how are things coming with your project
2021-01-11T16:16:43Z jeosol: i need to log into #sicl more often now
2021-01-11T16:17:45Z beach: jeosol: Steady progress.  The latest idea is explained in this draft paper: http://metamodular.com/SICL/call-site-optimization.pdf
2021-01-11T16:18:00Z beach: jeosol: Remarks are welcome as usual.
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2021-01-11T16:18:40Z beach: jeosol: How about yourself?
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2021-01-11T16:22:21Z jackdaniel: uh oh, a websocket library? https://github.com/charJe/portal
2021-01-11T16:23:15Z jackdaniel: ah, I've got excited for nothing, it is a server; I was hoping for a new client library
2021-01-11T16:23:25Z jackdaniel: still cool though
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2021-01-11T16:24:38Z jeosol: beach: Thanks for the link of the paper- will read. My browser logged me out for some reason
2021-01-11T16:24:52Z beach: I noticed. :)
2021-01-11T16:25:19Z beach: I thought I said something inappropriate. :)
2021-01-11T16:26:23Z beach: jeosol: Executive summary: Common Lisp can have faster function-calls than C++. :)
2021-01-11T16:26:32Z jeosol: oh no, not all, oh not at all
2021-01-11T16:27:09Z beach: jeosol: I also said "How about yourself?"
2021-01-11T16:27:10Z jeosol: Thanks for the summary. That's something I could use since I do many optimizations runs with thousands of calls
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2021-01-11T16:27:32Z jeosol: beach: I am doing well
2021-01-11T16:27:46Z jeosol: just saw that, had to got to the irc-logs to see if you message while I was out
2021-01-11T16:28:12Z jeosol: I probably should just use emacs, my chrome acts weird once in a while
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2021-01-11T16:29:13Z beach: What project are you working on?
2021-01-11T16:30:07Z jeosol: I was actually thinking of scheduling a talk with phoe, once I clear current loads.
2021-01-11T16:30:35Z beach: You mean an online Lisp meeting thing?
2021-01-11T16:30:36Z jeosol: Basically, most of my application is in the optimization space (and some machine learning for function approximation).
2021-01-11T16:30:49Z jeosol: yeah, online lisp meeting, when I get some things cleared out.
2021-01-11T16:30:56Z beach: That sounds good.
2021-01-11T16:32:50Z jeosol: One of the application examples, is meta-optimization - optimizing and optimizer. This is the application I said does lots of calls. I am looking at improving choice of data structures, etc, to squeeze out performance. Though in other practical applications, I am limited by expensive call to a third-party application that can take several minutes
2021-01-11T16:32:51Z jeosol: per call.
2021-01-11T16:34:12Z beach: What kind of "optimization" are we talking about here?
2021-01-11T16:34:50Z jeosol: sorry that was vague: it's the stochastic kind, evoluationary algorithms, e.g,. genetic algorithms, and the swarm algorithms, e.g., particle swarm optimization
2021-01-11T16:35:02Z beach: Ah, OK.
2021-01-11T16:35:51Z jeosol: They are not very efficient hence the need to combine with some statistical function approximators to save function calls
2021-01-11T16:36:20Z beach: I see.
2021-01-11T16:38:08Z jeosol: Perhaps I could also do an ELS paper. I tried to do one last year and travel but covid hit and disrupted plans
2021-01-11T16:39:38Z beach: Sure.  But you don't get to travel this time either.
2021-01-11T16:39:55Z jeosol: I think that's fine. I'd like to contribute a paper
2021-01-11T16:40:04Z beach: Please do!
2021-01-11T16:41:30Z jeosol: beach: also regarding your linked paper, off the top of my head, faster calls than C++ have significant implications - for one, having faster numeric type applications. Every time I have to deal with python version issues when I reach for one of the numeric libraries
2021-01-11T16:42:20Z jeosol: beach: I worked on a draft last year, I'd finish and submit. I just got the code I was working on to a great place and it's more stable, thanks to hints from you and the other guys here
2021-01-11T16:42:37Z beach: I see.  I do specifically mention full-word floats and full-word integers.
2021-01-11T16:42:57Z beach: Oh, so that will be no effort at all. :)
2021-01-11T16:42:59Z jeosol: I'd go through it in detail tonight
2021-01-11T16:43:34Z jeosol: beach: what do you mean by "no effort at all."
2021-01-11T16:44:10Z beach: If the paper is already written, you just need to submit it.  That's not fair! :)
2021-01-11T16:45:53Z jeosol: Haha, I guess by draft, I overstated things a bit; it's not completed. I have seen papers with code snippets so I was thinking may be I needed to include a few (albeit simplified versions)
2021-01-11T16:46:43Z beach: You have a few months as I recall.
2021-01-11T16:46:47Z jeosol: I'd check the deadline and work to complete it. At least the code runs stable and I can run it in docker from base container
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2021-01-11T17:56:18Z puchacz: hello, ECL is mostly up and running, but I was getting a strange crash before: "Internal error: Detected write access to the environment while interrupts were disabled. Usually this is caused by a missing call to ecl_enable_interrupts." - it looked as if it was related to an ironclad function being unsuccessfully injected into a hunchentoot thread
2021-01-11T17:56:18Z puchacz: - I got debugger with it in Emacs few times.
2021-01-11T17:56:33Z puchacz: does it look familiar to anybody please?
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2021-01-11T18:01:10Z puchacz: got this error in emacs again, it is trying to inject (make-prng :os) from ironclad, and the error is "Cannot interrupt the inactive process #<process hunchentoot-worker-127.0.0.1:48494 0x55760597b480>"
2021-01-11T18:01:56Z puchacz: this form is automatically added to bt:*default-special-bindings* in ironclad, but I don't know what exactly is going on
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2021-01-11T18:09:01Z jackdaniel: it looks as if you are trying to do something in a thread that is not started (i.e already ended)
2021-01-11T18:11:52Z puchacz: jackdaniel - if it was me doing it, it would be easy :)
2021-01-11T18:12:12Z puchacz: trying to recompile now with (pushnew '(*prng* . (make-prng :os)) bt:*default-special-bindings* :test #'equal) commented out
2021-01-11T18:12:46Z puchacz: I can imagine it is some sort of ironclad improved random seed generator, but I don't understand why it is trying to interrupt a thread
2021-01-11T18:12:47Z jackdaniel: what ecl version do you use?
2021-01-11T18:12:59Z jackdaniel: after the last release there were a few fixes for interrupts
2021-01-11T18:13:10Z puchacz: "20.4.24-UNKNOWN"
2021-01-11T18:13:24Z puchacz: I downloaded from your site, not git
2021-01-11T18:14:00Z jackdaniel: then you may try building git version to see if it works
2021-01-11T18:14:30Z puchacz: ok, will do - thanks :)
2021-01-11T18:14:49Z jackdaniel: sure, if it still fails, please try to narrow the test case and submit an issue
2021-01-11T18:15:08Z puchacz: ok:)
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2021-01-11T18:42:51Z puchacz: is it possible to globally restrict compiler policy? e.g. sbcl has (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) that overrides all local declaims, proclaims etc.
2021-01-11T18:43:05Z puchacz: (in ECL I mean)
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2021-01-11T18:49:14Z jackdaniel: ecl doesn't have such feature yet
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2021-01-11T18:49:29Z puchacz: ok
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2021-01-11T22:23:49Z puchacz: jackdaniel - sorry, I did not pinpoint it, but I realised that ironclad has nothing to do with the issue - I just saw the binding at the bottom stack frame of a thread, because bordeaux-threads was binding these specials as requested by ironclad. nothing to do with interrupting.
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2021-01-11T22:49:14Z puchacz: but I think the original problem with interrupting non started thread is gone
2021-01-11T22:52:35Z jackdaniel: with a version from git?
2021-01-11T22:52:48Z jackdaniel: or you have fixed something?
2021-01-11T22:52:55Z jackdaniel: puchacz: ^
2021-01-11T22:54:35Z puchacz: with a version from git, I think I never saw this "Cannot interrupt inactive" anymore
2021-01-11T22:54:44Z puchacz: well, I am certain
2021-01-11T22:55:44Z jackdaniel: cool, sounds like a progress :) good night \o
2021-01-11T22:56:00Z puchacz: thanks, and good night :)
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2021-01-11T23:12:26Z puchacz: I will play with it next weekend, there are (sparse!) application level incompatibilities, e.g. something deep inside babel crashes this in ECL (puri:parse-uri
2021-01-11T23:12:26Z puchacz: "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/load.php?lang=en&modules=ext.cite.styles%7Cext.uls.interlanguage%7Cext.visualEditor.desktopArticleTarget.noscript%7Cext.wikimediaBadges%7Cjquery.makeCollapsible.styles%7Cskins.vector.styles.legacy%7Cwikibase.client.init&only=styles&skin=vector")
2021-01-11T23:13:06Z puchacz: with #(124) is not of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (*)) --- related to lovely Lisp strings in babel :)
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2021-01-11T23:25:34Z devon: Is there a cure for the impossibility of using SWANK::*AFTER-INIT-HOOK* in a straightforward way?
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2021-01-11T23:35:42Z aeth: mfiano: Interesting. Apparently, the behavior you were complaining about a while back (iirc) is called sb-ext:readtable-normalization according to: https://old.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/kv9uqv/sbcl_unicode_support/
2021-01-11T23:36:47Z aeth: (setf (sb-ext:readtable-normalization *readtable*) nil) 'ℝ => ℝ
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2021-01-11T23:38:02Z aeth: Maybe I can just use the host CL's readtable to readtable-case :invert in Airship Scheme, then.
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2021-01-11T23:41:44Z aeth: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Symbol-Name-Normalization
2021-01-11T23:42:12Z aeth: oh, intern isn't even affected by it
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2021-01-12T03:37:49Z charles`: flip214: by ignore package nickname I didn't mean "not have to type it", I meant "change the package definition to not have a nickname without changing the source code" and before or while ASDF is loading it.
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2021-01-12T03:41:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: charles`: you can dynamically modify all of these things
2021-01-12T03:42:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I _believe_ there's an ASDF extension somewhere that has some sort of file-local package nicknames
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2021-01-12T03:42:17Z charles`: Yes, I see RENAME-PACKAGE, but how to use it with asdf
2021-01-12T03:44:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's one https://github.com/fare/package-renaming
2021-01-12T03:46:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I don't know the context, so I'm not sure what the best thing to tell you is
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2021-01-12T03:48:37Z charles`: basically I have two packages that have names CL-BASE64 and BASE64; I need both because they are dependencies for different dependencies. CL-BASE64 has nickname BASE64. I just need to remove that.
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2021-01-12T03:52:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder if ASDF has a mechanism for overriding dependencies
2021-01-12T03:52:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd be inclined to force one system in this case and then add a bit of code to emulate the other one to the BASE64 package
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2021-01-12T03:53:58Z charles`: It isn't that simple. cl-base64 and base64 have differently named functions and cl-base64 has some functions that base64 doesn't have at all
2021-01-12T03:54:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, what I'm thinking is take the one with the more complicated to implement function, and then write your own code to implement the missing names
2021-01-12T03:55:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: (in-package :cl-base64) (defun base64->string (v) (parse v)) or whatever
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2021-01-12T03:57:49Z charles`: so what you're suggesting is just don't use BASE64 package at all
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2021-01-12T03:58:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
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2021-01-12T03:59:23Z charles`: so track down the package that is using it as a dependency and tell them that they should use a different package
2021-01-12T03:59:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem is that their transitive dependencies, which means you'd have to figure out how to modify the dependency list
2021-01-12T03:59:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: system, not package
2021-01-12T03:59:57Z charles`: wouldn't I have to modify the package that uses base64 as a dependency to use cl-base64 functions
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2021-01-12T04:00:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I dunno, package nicknames in libraries is bad idea
2021-01-12T04:00:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: charles`: I think you're mixing up "packages" and ASDF "systems"
2021-01-12T04:01:27Z charles`: I just mean a particular project or bundle of code
2021-01-12T04:01:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: That is a "system"
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2021-01-12T04:02:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: A package is a namespace for symbols
2021-01-12T04:02:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Alternatively, you could modify your build process a bit
2021-01-12T04:03:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: load cl-base64 first, delete the package nickname using normal lisp code and then load your own system
2021-01-12T04:04:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm actually surprised this happens, I thought quicklisp requires that all systems be loadable in the same image
2021-01-12T04:04:24Z charles`: would that prevent my system from being loaded with ASDF?
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2021-01-12T04:05:06Z charles`: they can load just fine. I just have to enter the debugger and manually ignore the BASE64 nickname
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2021-01-12T04:05:54Z charles`: also perhaps the problematic nickname was added after already being added to quicklisp
2021-01-12T04:07:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: ASDF caches loaded systems
2021-01-12T04:07:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, you could still use ASDF to load it, it'll just be annoying
2021-01-12T04:08:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-12T04:08:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2237
2021-01-12T04:08:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach
2021-01-12T04:09:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is really why package nicknames should not be used in libraries, especially generic terms like "base64"
2021-01-12T04:10:36Z charles`: Good morning to beach
2021-01-12T04:12:06Z aeth: nicknames are fine if you have a unique nickname
2021-01-12T04:12:10Z aeth: so, not 'json'
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2021-01-12T04:13:20Z aeth: "unique nickname" would be a bit of a contradiction because it doesn't scale to large communities, but reasonable nicknames could work
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2021-01-12T04:15:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: I'd generally say, if you're writing an application, use global nicknames as much as you want
2021-01-12T04:16:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Where application is defined as "code not intended to be used as the dependency of another system"
2021-01-12T04:16:35Z aeth: An example of a reasonable nickname would be e.g. firefox for firefox-browser or something like htat, although that's an application.
2021-01-12T04:16:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess alexandria uses nicknames for versioning
2021-01-12T04:16:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: alexandria is a nickname for alexandria.1.dev or something
2021-01-12T04:17:19Z aeth: And the larger the framework/engine, the more likely it will behave like an "application" by your view, though, imo
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2021-01-12T04:17:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's probably right
2021-01-12T04:17:48Z aeth: A big game engine or web framework probably can get away with a nickname
2021-01-12T04:17:58Z aeth: as long as it's not a ridiculously colliding one like "game"
2021-01-12T04:18:15Z aeth: or "web"
2021-01-12T04:19:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, I'd generally think those would be ok for an "end user"
2021-01-12T04:19:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because then they'd be guaranteed to be unique
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2021-01-12T04:20:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: As long as your dependencies obey the contract of "not defining package nicknames"
2021-01-12T04:22:29Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I'd argue that a game engine would be wrong to use "game" and a web framework would be wrong to use "web"... however, they could in their documentation (or even in a project autogenerator) use that as the default for the *user* and *their* project, rather than for a library.
2021-01-12T04:23:08Z aeth: Although I guess you might want to run several websites or several game servers together in one image.
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2021-01-12T04:36:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: What I mean by "end user" is "system that is never depended on by any other systems"
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2021-01-12T04:36:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: For the other problem, you need a virtualization layer for CL
2021-01-12T04:37:47Z beach: First-class global environments might help.
2021-01-12T04:38:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, that's basically what I mean, as far as I understand it
2021-01-12T04:40:21Z aeth: absolutely
2021-01-12T04:40:26Z beach: There is not much to understand.  It's just a protocol with a bunch of generic functions that look like the standard ones, but with an additional environment parameter, so find-class, find-package, fdefinition, etc.
2021-01-12T04:40:49Z aeth: You'd ideally want first-class global environments if you want to run multiple server things of the same type (games, websites, app servers, etc.) on one image
2021-01-12T04:41:20Z aeth: Otherwise, there are too many global variables in the language to be sure that they won't interfere with each other in unexpected ways.
2021-01-12T04:42:32Z beach: Is this going to be a "Let's define an improved version of Common Lisp with fewer global variables" discussion?
2021-01-12T04:45:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: I'd rather just define a way to "fork" the common lisp environment so that changes in one part can't directly affect changes in the other
2021-01-12T04:46:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: The only thing you'd need then is a protocol to pass data between the two sides
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2021-01-12T04:47:32Z beach: I am planning a way to define incremental first-class global environments.
2021-01-12T04:47:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is, incidentally, what unix did
2021-01-12T04:48:08Z beach: Oh?
2021-01-12T04:48:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Docker containers are just namespaces for all the global resources: PIDs, ports, etc.
2021-01-12T04:48:34Z beach: I see.
2021-01-12T04:48:36Z aeth: beach: No. You don't need to remove the globals if you have different global environments so COMMON-LISP:*FOO* can refer to different things depending on the environment.
2021-01-12T04:48:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most of them bundle an entire OS image inside the namespace, but there's no necessity for that
2021-01-12T04:48:56Z beach: aeth: Got it.
2021-01-12T04:49:08Z aeth: It already can refer to different things depending on the thread in most implementations... so my concern probably isn't as big of a problem as I think.
2021-01-12T04:49:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: A docker container can be a single executable, as long as it has no dependencies
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2021-01-12T04:52:33Z charles`: fiddlerwoaroof: in your example you used SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR. isn't that specific to sbcl? is there a portable way?
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2021-01-12T04:55:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think PACKAGE-ERROR, maybe?
2021-01-12T04:55:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: specbot package-error
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2021-01-12T04:55:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs package-error
2021-01-12T04:55:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_pkg_er.htm
2021-01-12T04:55:47Z charles`: but wouldn't that catch all errors, not just ones related to nicknames
2021-01-12T04:56:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: yeah
2021-01-12T04:58:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: It might be cleaner to have a system :cl-base64-patch that depends on cl-base64 and has a single file, that clears the nickname
2021-01-12T04:58:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then have your system depend on that one
2021-01-12T04:59:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or fork cl-base64 to local-projects and modify it (which is what I usually do)
2021-01-12T05:01:49Z charles`: ideally the maintainer would be responsive and remove his nickname
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2021-01-12T05:04:40Z charles`: patch method doesn't work for me because I'm not using cl-base64 it is another dependency that is using it
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2021-01-12T05:55:03Z charles`: I've found that the path of least resistance is to not use the library that depends on base64
2021-01-12T05:56:08Z charles`: I still think, as a community, something should be done about cl-base64, not only does it use a generic nickname, the git repository and maintainer are not accessible.
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2021-01-12T06:17:16Z beach: charles`: The only way that will happen is if someone decides to work on it.  There is no community decision process that will make it happen in any other way.
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2021-01-12T06:18:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: charles`: my suggestion would still work, you just have to put the system that depends on cl-base64 as the dependency of the system with the patch
2021-01-12T06:20:26Z aeth: charles`: or create a superior library with a compatible API and get the library that uses cl-base64 to switch
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2021-01-12T08:56:31Z shka_: how quiet
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2021-01-12T09:12:36Z beach: OK, so here is some food for thought to break the silence...  How hard would it be to create a Linux/BSD/whatever "desktop" in Common Lisp?
2021-01-12T09:12:37Z beach: That would involve the window manager (we have two of those I think), a workspace manager, and a bunch of little gadgets like the volume control and stuff like that.  And could it be done incrementally, so that one could gradually replace existing gadgets?
2021-01-12T09:13:35Z beach: I am asking because I am tired of the existing "desktops" and I don't see myself improving them, given the language used.
2021-01-12T09:14:28Z beach: Mezzano must have some of that stuff already.  How portable is it?
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2021-01-12T09:15:08Z frodef: Does Mezzano do X11?
2021-01-12T09:15:31Z beach: Good question.  I don't know.
2021-01-12T09:16:05Z beach: But either way, the display server would have to be isolated from the rest so that it could be easily replaced.
2021-01-12T09:16:19Z frodef: I just submitted a bug report for CL-WHO, is Edi Weiz active these days?
2021-01-12T09:17:37Z mfiano: No, infact he recommends people to use other libraries, as cl-who has a lot of bugs and he can't recommend using it (from an email discussion I had with him a few years ago), which is why his book, Common Lisp Recipes, recommends alternatives.
2021-01-12T09:19:29Z frodef: ok thanks. Is there consensus on what is a good alternative for simple html syntax?
2021-01-12T09:19:52Z mfiano: I personally recommend spinneret
2021-01-12T09:20:10Z mfiano: I don't know what others prefer. I don't think there is any consensus
2021-01-12T09:20:47Z moon-child: beach: stumpwm is written in cl
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2021-01-12T09:25:00Z Cthulhux`: and it is rather good
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2021-01-12T09:25:15Z Cthulhux`: or you could try exwm which is written in emacs lisp.
2021-01-12T09:30:43Z beach: moon-child: yes, hence "we have two of those".  The other one is called Eclipse.
2021-01-12T09:32:10Z frodef: is hunchentoot similarly abandoned?
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2021-01-12T09:38:27Z ralt: I think it has a new maintainer
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2021-01-12T09:38:53Z ralt: beach: stumpwm is clearly the one that has a community. writing new modules is not too hard.
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2021-01-12T09:39:28Z ralt: see all the contrib modules there https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm-contrib/
2021-01-12T09:40:26Z beach: Thanks.  I don't see the volume control as a contributed module of the window manager, though.  Am I wrong?
2021-01-12T09:40:44Z ralt: there is none that I'm aware of for volume control, that is correct
2021-01-12T09:40:48Z beach: Also, is stumpwm still a tiling window manager?
2021-01-12T09:41:25Z beach: ralt: No I meant, is the window manager the right place for such a module?  I wouldn't think so.
2021-01-12T09:41:45Z ralt: ah
2021-01-12T09:41:47Z beach: But maybe stumpwm is more than a window manager.
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2021-01-12T09:41:53Z ralt: I don't necessarily see stumpwm as a window manager
2021-01-12T09:42:04Z ralt: just "an X11 application that can manage windows, among others"
2021-01-12T09:42:04Z beach: I see.
2021-01-12T09:42:26Z ralt: it would be the "lisp machine", so to speak
2021-01-12T09:42:38Z beach: Yes, I see.
2021-01-12T09:44:38Z ralt: an example I like is pinentry support: https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm-contrib/tree/master/util/pinentry
2021-01-12T09:45:44Z ralt: it starts a server in a thread, and whenever gpg-agent or ssh-agent is trying to grab a key, it hits that server, which draws a new x11 window to ask for your password, and replies to gpg/ssh-agent
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2021-01-12T09:47:44Z beach: I guess I should have a closer look at stumpwm.
2021-01-12T09:48:06Z frodef: beach: It does look very interesting, and pretty much what you originally suggested?
2021-01-12T09:48:35Z beach: That would be great, if so.
2021-01-12T09:49:09Z pranavats: beach: There's also EXWM which allows one to manage X windows using Emacs, in case you are interested in extending "desktop" using Elisp.
2021-01-12T09:49:43Z beach: Thanks, but no, not really.  I would like to see it in Common Lisp.
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2021-01-12T09:52:35Z beach: So if everything is done with the keyboard, how do I get applications like the one that lets me slide little pictures of my monitors to determine their relative position?  I think I am saying that I am not sure that all mouse-based applications should be banned.
2021-01-12T10:00:31Z frodef: Spinner apparently won't do the syntax ((:sometag :someattr value) <content>), only (:sometag :someattr value <content>), which means source code formatting/indenting is not great at all...
2021-01-12T10:01:18Z frodef: ...any tips/experiences with this? Is there some slime integration etc?
2021-01-12T10:01:35Z frodef: s/spinner/spinneret/
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2021-01-12T10:27:12Z VincentVega: Hi, all! Is there a way define a setf which would work like this https://pastebin.com/bB8kHwSu ? I was thinking of defining a slot named approximate-x but that seems hackish since I don't really need an extra slot, just the setf capability.
2021-01-12T10:28:19Z phoe: VincentVega: new-value goes first
2021-01-12T10:28:34Z phoe: it'll work afterwards
2021-01-12T10:28:38Z VincentVega: oh me
2021-01-12T10:28:50Z VincentVega: thanks, man
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2021-01-12T10:31:47Z flip214: Is there an easier way than my own DEFCLASS* so that the accessors by default modify an object referenced by a special variable? Like with HUNCHENTOOT:HEADERS-IN* and similar.
2021-01-12T10:33:12Z beach: What makes them accessors if they don't modify the class instance?
2021-01-12T10:34:55Z shka_: beach: i was thinking about this myself
2021-01-12T10:35:05Z shka_: i mean, DE in lisp
2021-01-12T10:35:07Z flip214: they read and write _a_ class instance still, just a "default" instance if none is given
2021-01-12T10:35:33Z beach: shka_: Apparently, it exists.
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2021-01-12T10:35:34Z flip214: ie. (defmethod slot-a (&optional (obj *default-obj*)) ...)
2021-01-12T10:35:48Z shka_: i wonder though, would it be possible to run every application in the same lisp process?
2021-01-12T10:35:55Z phoe: flip214: (defmethod (setf foo) (new-value &optional (*instance* *instance*)) ...)
2021-01-12T10:35:57Z phoe: some tricks like this
2021-01-12T10:35:59Z beach: flip214: That's not the signature of a slot accessor.
2021-01-12T10:36:12Z phoe: (ab)using the fact that method parameters can bind special variables
2021-01-12T10:36:17Z shka_: because if yes, CLIM presentation types would be quite amazing
2021-01-12T10:36:17Z beach: flip214: Just write a method as phoe suggests.
2021-01-12T10:37:06Z flip214: https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot/blob/d684a9002665ca91477e98a5c777ead202c14306/request.lisp#L399
2021-01-12T10:37:08Z beach: shka_: That would be desirable, if not mandatory.
2021-01-12T10:37:45Z shka_: Lisp Machine User Space On Linux
2021-01-12T10:37:54Z shka_: or rather
2021-01-12T10:37:55Z flip214: beach: phoe: I only showed the reader method, yeah.
2021-01-12T10:38:00Z shka_: Lisp Machine "User Space" On Linux
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2021-01-12T11:02:44Z devon: Any thoughts on finding what clobbers a CCL global variable?
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2021-01-12T11:09:32Z flip214: devon: can you make it a symbol-macro that expands to a SETF clause that you can trace or just define to an (ERROR ...) clause?
2021-01-12T11:09:47Z flip214: or are there read requests mixed in as well?
2021-01-12T11:10:14Z flip214: perhaps get the address and let gdb set a write watchpoint?
2021-01-12T11:10:18Z devon: flip214: Tried that, not allowed to redefine a procaimed special.
2021-01-12T11:11:16Z devon: Maybe manually clear bit 4 in the symbol structure…
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2021-01-12T11:16:55Z flip214: well, gdb or whatever else you have is still an option...
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2021-01-12T11:22:44Z jackdaniel: shka_: something like this? https://files.mastodon.social/media_attachments/files/105/340/120/234/953/787/original/5754ea8397d70ba2.mp4
2021-01-12T11:23:18Z jackdaniel: n.b there is "clim window manager", it is called doors. I haven't used it myself though
2021-01-12T11:23:28Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/admich/Doors
2021-01-12T11:24:00Z jackdaniel: there is a warning, that it is still a sketch, but I saw a video and it seems to work
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2021-01-12T11:58:59Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: that has never been a goal, or possible, since the beginning.
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2021-01-12T12:45:19Z ralt: beach: https://stumpwm.github.io/git/stumpwm-git_1.html#Floating-Group-Basics
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2021-01-12T12:46:32Z ralt: it's not banned, and drag&drop inside applications still works for sure
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2021-01-12T13:19:32Z beach: ralt: Thanks!
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2021-01-12T16:32:01Z zmagii: Can I run Lisp code line for line in Emacs?
2021-01-12T16:32:23Z beach: zmagii: What do you mean by "line for line"?
2021-01-12T16:32:43Z pranavats: You can execute expressions individually in a REPL.
2021-01-12T16:32:44Z beach: You can have a REPL using SLIME and you can type an expression at a time.
2021-01-12T16:34:14Z shka_: line in the context of lisp does not mean much anyway
2021-01-12T16:34:30Z beach: Hence my question.
2021-01-12T16:35:24Z shka_: http://www.neil.dantam.name/extra/slime-refcard.pdf
2021-01-12T16:35:38Z shka_: take a look at the evaluation section
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2021-01-12T16:43:03Z zmagii: beach: I have file.lisp opened in Emacs, it shows SLIME in the status bar. How can I run the code?
2021-01-12T16:43:48Z beach: Did you type M-x slime in Emacs before opening the file?
2021-01-12T16:44:45Z zmagii: beach: Oh, I see, this now opens SLIME in a terminal buffer.
2021-01-12T16:44:55Z beach: Sort of.
2021-01-12T16:45:07Z beach: It's the SLIME REPL, not a terminal.
2021-01-12T16:45:14Z beach: There, you can type expressions.
2021-01-12T16:45:21Z beach: And they will be evaluated.
2021-01-12T16:45:44Z zmagii: And C-c C-c can compile blocks, it seems?
2021-01-12T16:45:46Z beach: So you can do (load "file.lisp") and then evaluate calls to functions defined in the file.
2021-01-12T16:46:03Z beach: Yes you can do that.  It compiles a top-level form.
2021-01-12T16:46:24Z beach: A "block" is a term in Common Lisp, and that's not what it is compiling.
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2021-01-12T16:57:20Z zmagii: OK, so a top-level form is compiled?
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2021-01-12T17:02:24Z dbotton: Is it valid in a let* to rebind same symbol multiple times, ie (let* ((a 5) (a 4))) ?/
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2021-01-12T17:03:47Z pranavats: a will be bound to value 4 in let* body in the above example.
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2021-01-12T17:04:42Z pranavats: The previous binding of a with value 5 would be shadowed.
2021-01-12T17:05:45Z dbotton: So they persist till end of let* but are shadowed
2021-01-12T17:06:09Z pranavats: Yes
2021-01-12T17:06:18Z dbotton: So if I create a CLOS object then rebind the variable it will persist till end of scope
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2021-01-12T17:06:25Z dbotton: Ok, perfect
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2021-01-12T17:06:54Z dbotton: Meaning no GC till then
2021-01-12T17:07:55Z pranavats: A let* is equivalent to nested lambdas with variable names as an argument and applied to their values.
2021-01-12T17:08:49Z dbotton: Perfect, much appreciated
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2021-01-12T17:09:09Z pranavats: The above form can be written as ((lambda (a) ((lambda (a) ...) 4)) 5)
2021-01-12T17:09:41Z deselby: OpusModus Convention, second day streaming now! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wqU8Ki622M
2021-01-12T17:10:20Z pranavats: dbotton: Where ... represents the body. So yes, a would still be bound to 5 in the outer lambda.
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2021-01-12T17:12:11Z dbotton: Thank you for the illustration even more clear
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2021-01-12T17:18:41Z nwoob: what package to use for syntax highlighting in *.lisp files?
2021-01-12T17:19:10Z mfiano: lisp-mode
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2021-01-12T17:21:08Z beach: zmagii: Everything is typically compiled by default.
2021-01-12T17:22:07Z beach: dbotton: That's not clear.  If the first binding is never used, the compiler can remove it, and then the GC can reclaim the object.
2021-01-12T17:23:01Z beach: dbotton: Plus, the term "CLOS object" is meaningless.
2021-01-12T17:23:25Z nwoob: mfiano: my code looks like this https://ibb.co/f9hsMn6
2021-01-12T17:23:42Z nwoob: there must be better syntax highlighting than this
2021-01-12T17:24:11Z beach: What editor are you using?
2021-01-12T17:24:16Z nwoob: emacs
2021-01-12T17:24:17Z mfiano: Then load SLIME and revert-buffer
2021-01-12T17:25:02Z pranavats: dbotton: Then maybe it's preferable to just use nested let forms and make sure to use the shadowed binding in the outer let.
2021-01-12T17:25:20Z nwoob: beach: emacs
2021-01-12T17:25:21Z dbotton: Ok, so won't rely on that behavior beach. Beach what is better way to say that?
2021-01-12T17:25:35Z nwoob: mfiano: slime is loaded
2021-01-12T17:25:50Z mfiano: Then your theme needs some work
2021-01-12T17:26:31Z Alfr_: dbotton, why do you not want that thing to be collected in the first place? It's quite an unusual ask, if you ask me.
2021-01-12T17:26:45Z dbotton: Here is code snip - https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/09-tutorial.lisp
2021-01-12T17:27:11Z nwoob: mfiano: do you use theme?
2021-01-12T17:27:15Z dbotton: To not have tons of symbols in a let describing a GUI form
2021-01-12T17:28:41Z pranavats: dbotton: (let ((a 5)) a (let ((a 4)) ...))
2021-01-12T17:33:12Z Alfr_: dbotton, your (create-form-element f1 :submit :value "OK") might get collected, like beach said.
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2021-01-12T17:35:47Z dbotton: It is ok in this case if collected
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2021-01-12T17:38:05Z dbotton: The actual Lisp side after creating the elements on the browser side are not needed. In fact unless I actually need to set a property or event or need request a property value the Lisp side no longer matters
2021-01-12T17:38:39Z nwoob: mfiano: I commented out loading of theme in .emacs and now without theme syntax highlighting loooks like this https://ibb.co/nsHt6SV
2021-01-12T17:38:51Z dbotton: But I'll document it all that in the tutorial before writing the next one.
2021-01-12T17:40:32Z Alfr_: dbotton, you may wish to have a look at LTK's with-widget macro. I think it deals with the same problem for using tcl/tk.
2021-01-12T17:41:09Z dbotton: Appreciated I'll take a look
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2021-01-12T17:43:41Z beach: dbotton: Most people who say what you did mean "standard object"
2021-01-12T17:44:26Z dbotton: So I would say just object or should I say standard object?
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2021-01-12T17:44:53Z beach: "object" means "any Lisp datum" as the Common Lisp HyperSpec explains.
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2021-01-12T17:45:15Z beach: "standard object" is what you typically get when you instantiate a class defined using DEFCLASS.
2021-01-12T17:45:32Z beach: dbotton: So 234 is an object.
2021-01-12T17:45:42Z beach: But not a standard object.
2021-01-12T17:45:50Z beach: clhs standard-object
2021-01-12T17:45:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_std_ob.htm
2021-01-12T17:48:46Z dbotton: Thanks
2021-01-12T17:49:32Z shka_: eh, we should simply call standard objects or instances
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2021-01-12T17:50:07Z dbotton: Ok, updated my code to reflect this all, thanks.
2021-01-12T17:53:05Z nwoob: beach: which editor do you use?
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2021-01-12T17:54:51Z shka_: nwoob: 99% sure it is emacs
2021-01-12T17:55:00Z nwoob: shka_: what about you
2021-01-12T17:55:04Z shka_: emacs
2021-01-12T17:55:10Z shka_: almost everyone use emacs here
2021-01-12T17:55:33Z charles`: emacs
2021-01-12T17:55:33Z nwoob: could you please show me image of CL code in your emacs
2021-01-12T17:55:42Z nwoob: I want to know how does it looks
2021-01-12T17:55:50Z shka_: uh, it looks normal?
2021-01-12T17:55:53Z solideogloria[m]: Emacs
2021-01-12T17:56:02Z nwoob: like the synta highlighting
2021-01-12T17:56:05Z nwoob: syntax
2021-01-12T17:56:10Z jackdaniel: at the beginning there is (cl:in-package …) I bet :-)
2021-01-12T17:56:23Z shka_: jackdaniel: you win
2021-01-12T17:56:45Z shka_: nwoob: i don't use syntax highlighting
2021-01-12T17:56:50Z nwoob: my emacs syntax highlighting looks like this https://ibb.co/f9hsMn6
2021-01-12T17:56:59Z nwoob: I thought there might be better
2021-01-12T17:57:04Z shka_: perhaps
2021-01-12T17:57:05Z nwoob: coming from VScode
2021-01-12T17:57:27Z shka_: i don't know, i don't like syntax highlighting in general
2021-01-12T17:57:55Z nwoob: ok
2021-01-12T17:57:56Z shka_: but thing with CL (or any other lisp, really) is that there is barely a syntax to highlight
2021-01-12T17:58:09Z shka_: so...
2021-01-12T17:58:13Z charles`: rainbow delimiters (not default faces) greatly enhance syntax highlighting for lisp
2021-01-12T17:58:33Z shka_: ok, i do use rainbow delimiters as well, they are cool
2021-01-12T17:58:41Z nwoob: I mean predefined functions must be highlighted
2021-01-12T17:59:02Z nwoob: so that by one look i can know that this is CL fucntion
2021-01-12T17:59:04Z charles`: I've said it on reddit but I also highlight ' , # @
2021-01-12T17:59:33Z shka_: nwoob: uhm, ok
2021-01-12T17:59:52Z nwoob: charles`: this one? https://github.com/Fanael/rainbow-delimiters
2021-01-12T18:00:11Z shka_: yes
2021-01-12T18:00:26Z shka_: i find those profoundly useful
2021-01-12T18:00:33Z charles`: the problem with highlighting builtin functions is the almost everything becomes highlighted. there is nothing to differentiate, builtin macros like loop, if, and let should be highlighted
2021-01-12T18:00:59Z shka_: yeah,
2021-01-12T18:01:29Z shka_: after years of programming i just accepted that I am getting information overload way quicker then i would like to admit
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2021-01-12T18:02:56Z nwoob: this is my syntax highlighting of javascript in VScode https://ibb.co/BnrLtft
2021-01-12T18:03:10Z nwoob: I was thinking to get close to this in emacs for CL
2021-01-12T18:03:49Z shka_: oh, garmin
2021-01-12T18:04:01Z nwoob: :)
2021-01-12T18:04:19Z shka_: anyway, i really can't help you, sorry!
2021-01-12T18:04:45Z shka_: the only extravaganza i use is rainbow delimiters and prettify for lambda
2021-01-12T18:05:29Z nwoob: could you send me the link for prettify
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2021-01-12T18:08:35Z shka_: it is build into emacs itself
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2021-01-12T18:09:38Z shka_: https://aliquote.org/post/enliven-your-emacs/
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2021-01-12T18:10:00Z nwoob: thank you for your time and help
2021-01-12T18:10:03Z shka_: i mean, it is just eye candy
2021-01-12T18:10:22Z shka_: but saves few characters on the screen so i like it
2021-01-12T18:10:27Z nwoob: I understand
2021-01-12T18:10:45Z shka_: also, it is kind of silly that appeals to me :-)
2021-01-12T18:11:09Z nwoob: :D
2021-01-12T18:12:13Z nwoob: shka_: so if I want to look for documentation of a particular buitin function how do i do that inside emacs?
2021-01-12T18:12:52Z shka_: http://www.neil.dantam.name/extra/slime-refcard.pdf
2021-01-12T18:13:00Z shka_: here is the reference for you
2021-01-12T18:13:16Z nwoob: thank you so much
2021-01-12T18:13:23Z shka_: Documentation section, to be specific
2021-01-12T18:15:00Z nwoob: i am doing C-c C-f on defun in my *.lisp file and emacs says C-c C-f is undefined :(
2021-01-12T18:15:21Z shka_: hm, do you have slime installed and running?
2021-01-12T18:15:42Z shka_: also, you can just use inspector to see docstrings
2021-01-12T18:15:52Z shka_: which is also an option
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2021-01-12T18:15:59Z nwoob: yes, slime is installed and repl is running in another buffer
2021-01-12T18:16:04Z shka_: interesting
2021-01-12T18:16:15Z shka_: and you have slime-mode on?
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2021-01-12T18:16:44Z scymtym: SLIME has C-c C-d h for looking up symbols in the specification. more generally, C-c C-d KEY looks up different things in the specification
2021-01-12T18:16:45Z nwoob: yes i do
2021-01-12T18:17:09Z shka_: hey, mcclim got an icon!
2021-01-12T18:17:11Z shka_: nice!
2021-01-12T18:17:51Z shka_: ok, time to go offline
2021-01-12T18:17:52Z scymtym: shka_: McCLIM got *support for icons*. your are probably just seeing the default one
2021-01-12T18:18:12Z shka_: aaaaah
2021-01-12T18:18:14Z shka_: makes sense
2021-01-12T18:18:30Z shka_: this is good
2021-01-12T18:19:06Z shka_: now i want to draw icon for clouseau
2021-01-12T18:19:18Z scymtym: shka_: i already did. hang on
2021-01-12T18:19:36Z nwoob:  C-c C-d d works!
2021-01-12T18:19:42Z shka_: nwoob: awesome
2021-01-12T18:19:55Z nwoob: thanks shka_ and scymtym
2021-01-12T18:20:22Z shka_: nwoob: for the built in stuff, hyperspec is your friend
2021-01-12T18:20:22Z nwoob: i have so much emacs commands to remember
2021-01-12T18:20:44Z nwoob: yes, will do C-c C-d h for hyperspec
2021-01-12T18:20:46Z nwoob: its cool
2021-01-12T18:20:54Z nwoob: love it
2021-01-12T18:20:58Z shka_: i personally just use zeal
2021-01-12T18:21:12Z nwoob: what's zeal
2021-01-12T18:21:14Z shka_: i like to have all docs i may want in one place
2021-01-12T18:21:23Z scymtym: shka_: https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/clouseau-logo.png
2021-01-12T18:21:25Z shka_: documentation browser
2021-01-12T18:21:28Z scymtym is not an artist
2021-01-12T18:21:44Z shka_: hmmm, fedora
2021-01-12T18:21:46Z shka_: ok
2021-01-12T18:22:02Z shka_: i like the idea
2021-01-12T18:22:25Z scymtym: shka_: based on https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/presentation-clouseau/slides.html#/slide-slide%3Anames
2021-01-12T18:22:42Z scymtym: "based on" = "traced over"
2021-01-12T18:22:55Z shka_: heh, i see
2021-01-12T18:26:58Z charles`: nwoob to get that level of syntax highlighting requires just a little regex
2021-01-12T18:28:00Z charles`: it seems that basically you want all functions to be colored, and all non function symbols to be colored a different color
2021-01-12T18:28:54Z nwoob: yes charles`
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2021-01-12T18:29:48Z charles`: do you know about add-font-lock-keywords emacs function?
2021-01-12T18:30:20Z nwoob: no i don't have knowledge about elisp
2021-01-12T18:32:40Z charles`: I believe that is what you are going to need. You will need regexes to identifiy all macro forms where you can define variable, let, destructuring bind, multiple value bind, loop and select variable names, then a regex to select function names, maybe also in flet and labels
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2021-01-12T18:33:42Z nwoob: I will search on this function and try to write regex
2021-01-12T18:33:54Z nwoob: thanks for guiding
2021-01-12T18:33:57Z nwoob: :)
2021-01-12T18:35:04Z charles`: You can use M-x regex-builder to test the regex since emacs-lisp regex is not pcre
2021-01-12T18:35:27Z charles`: I might actually work on this since I'm slightly interested
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2021-01-12T18:36:37Z charles`: and it will help to use groups to select the variables
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2021-01-12T20:33:48Z xificurC: Reading the iterate docs I hit into this: "There is one crucial difference between using a the form and actually declaring the variable: explicit declarations are always placed in the generated code, but type information from a the form is not turned into an actual declaration unless you tell iterate to do so using iterate:declare-variables". What
2021-01-12T20:33:48Z xificurC: is then the actual difference of using `declare` and `the`?
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2021-01-12T20:43:14Z Alfr_: xificurC, (iter (for (the fixnum i) :below 7)) would not expand to something declaring i to be a fixnum, whereas (iter (for (the fixnum i) :below 7) (declare (iterate:declare-variables))) would.
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2021-01-12T20:43:54Z xificurC: Alfr_ what *does* `the` do then?
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2021-01-12T20:44:34Z Alfr_: clhs the
2021-01-12T20:44:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm
2021-01-12T20:47:09Z Alfr_: xificurC, but in iterate's case the iterate macro walks its body forms and in some places treats the THEs specially, mainly providing appropriate initial values instead of nil and declaring the types.
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2021-01-12T20:47:53Z xificurC: Alfr_ yes I read that but didn't completely grok it. Re-reading the fourth time it seems to suggest it is merely a type-check, but if the type doesn't match the consequences are undefined
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2021-01-12T20:52:04Z Alfr_: xificurC, the special operator is more like a promise to the compiler that what form returns is of that type. I don't think there's a requirement to type check. And yes, it's ub when you break your promises.
2021-01-12T20:52:33Z aeth: xificurC: afaik, in general, THE counts as a type declaration of sorts and so should behave similarly to DECLARE. It will check, ignore, or assume the type. Only the last one is problematic.
2021-01-12T20:53:07Z aeth: In general, you should only see that last case with (safety 0)
2021-01-12T20:53:43Z aeth: (I mean, it's entirely UB, but those are the only three possibilities you'll see in practice)
2021-01-12T20:53:50Z xificurC: Alfr_ OK, if it's a promise to the compiler, how is that different from a declaration? Is there a runtime difference you can tell/show me?
2021-01-12T20:54:15Z xificurC: I'm trying to differentiate the two
2021-01-12T20:55:12Z aeth: ITER's THE appears to be different, perhaps just a concise way to declare?
2021-01-12T20:55:34Z Alfr_: xificurC, I don't think there is any.
2021-01-12T20:56:24Z aeth: Usually, you'd use THE in place of DECLARE if you don't want to have to name it as a variable first, e.g. (the fixnum 42) but the example of the (the fixnum i) is declaring a new binding rather than using the value of i.
2021-01-12T20:56:27Z Alfr_: aeth, and specifying the initial binding for the variable to be of the appropriate type.
2021-01-12T20:56:48Z aeth: Alfr_: yes, but that should be redundant with a DECLARE
2021-01-12T20:57:02Z xificurC: the docs say there's a *crucial* difference, which seems to suggest I'm missing something. Also, if there isn't any difference, why does `iterate:declare-variables` exist?
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2021-01-12T20:57:26Z Alfr_: aeth, iterate usually generate (let ((i nil)) ... (setf i -1) ...] .
2021-01-12T20:57:46Z aeth: the more I learn about iterate, the less I like it :-)
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2021-01-12T20:58:09Z Alfr_: aeth, I mean that w/ initial binding.
2021-01-12T20:58:35Z aeth: I don't like how any advanced usage of LOOP is going to be indented poorly because it's not s-expression-based (even with the SLIME extensions... try to do a complicated nested conditional), but, wow, iterate makes mistakes that come up in #lisp all of the time
2021-01-12T20:58:58Z Alfr_: aeth, it also parses declare forms in its body, so it's not that bad.
2021-01-12T21:00:50Z xificurC: aeth what are those mistakes
2021-01-12T21:02:20Z xificurC: also, I'm still not sure why does `iterate:declare-variables` exist if you claim there's no difference to `the` and `declare`
2021-01-12T21:04:52Z Alfr_: xificurC, shorter hand I think and the THEs only take effect if declare-variables is declared.
2021-01-12T21:05:06Z Alfr_: short*
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2021-01-12T21:13:39Z aeth: xificurC: in general, it tries to be too smart, see: above
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2021-01-12T21:17:10Z saturn2: THE only promises what the type will be at the moment a particular form is evaluated, DECLARE promises a variable will always have a particular type where the declaration is in scope
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2021-01-12T21:44:54Z aeth: saturn2: right, but you can kind of think of THE as the LAMBDA to DECLARE's DEFUN
2021-01-12T21:45:06Z aeth: sort of, because, yes, SETF kind of ruins that illusion
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2021-01-12T22:56:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: I must have misremembered an old blogpost or something
2021-01-12T22:58:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I vaguely remember someone talking about loading every system distributed with Quicklisp into a single image as a sanity check of sorts
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2021-01-12T23:27:34Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: many have tried. it is a fool's errand. not possible.
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2021-01-12T23:31:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: makes sense, I'd be interested in a "stable" dist that only accepts pure lisp packages (no FFI) that can be loaded together
2021-01-12T23:32:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've occasionally tried to figure out how to host my own diet, for reasons, but never really seriously enough to have anything to show
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2021-01-12T23:33:26Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: i had hoped that dists would be very common, with people hosting lispworks-only software, or other thematic dists, but a combination between a lack of interest and a lack of documentation and probably other factors has made it not happen yet
2021-01-12T23:33:43Z Xach: i think a pure-lisp dist would be quite interesting
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2021-01-12T23:45:53Z charles`: I would think if you were a company writing internal libraries you would want to host your own dist for those.
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2021-01-12T23:47:58Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: pure-lisp wouldn't be as interesting as zero-foreign-dependency
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2021-01-12T23:48:34Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: there is a distinction... outside of systems with X Windows (where CLX exists and can use the protocol), you can't do anything graphical without some degree of FFI
2021-01-12T23:49:01Z aeth: But if someone made a graphical toolkit on top of just the OSes themselves, then it would be useful.
2021-01-12T23:49:20Z Xach: aeth: what is the distinction between pure lisp and zero foreign dependency?
2021-01-12T23:49:39Z aeth: Xach: basically, OS and graphics drivers as the only dependencies
2021-01-12T23:49:45Z Xach: charles`: sometimes it's just easier to have a git repo for that
2021-01-12T23:50:14Z Xach: aeth: that's neither pure lisp nor zero foreign dependencies?
2021-01-12T23:51:12Z aeth: Xach: Sorry, I'm unclear, I mean zero distributed foreign dependencies. So if someone wants to just wrap the WinAPI, then that should be OK, to complement something like CLX, but OS-agnostic.
2021-01-12T23:51:51Z aeth: As opposed to something like cl-sdl2 where you have to have SDL2, a giant C dependency, at some point.
2021-01-12T23:52:51Z Xach: Oh. Well, I'm thinking of users with semi-exotic platforms, where binding to some "it's installed everywhere! (if you use linux/windows/macos)" is a failure
2021-01-12T23:53:14Z Xach: so pure lisp is a true advantage
2021-01-12T23:53:31Z aeth: Yes, but it also means no portable graphical apps, since most platforms don't have X
2021-01-12T23:53:50Z Xach: it doesn't mean anything of the sort
2021-01-12T23:54:04Z Xach: having a curated dist available does not prevent you from using more than one dist
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2021-01-12T23:54:30Z Xach: you are allowed to have multiple categories of things in use
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2021-01-13T04:03:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2021-01-13T05:22:16Z splittist: good morning beach
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2021-01-13T07:41:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach/aeth: yeah, my goal would be to include things like Alexandria that should reasonably be expected to be usable anywhere
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2021-01-13T07:42:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: quicklisp or ultralisp would be used for things like clim that require functionality beyond the standard
2021-01-13T07:45:16Z aeth: well, more clim backends (that don't currently exist?) than clim, since clim itself would be fine
2021-01-13T07:46:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess so
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2021-01-13T09:14:14Z ludston: Is there a quick and dirty way in CLOS to wrap a struct with another struct that proxies through all of the accessors on the wrapped struct?
2021-01-13T09:15:06Z jeosol: beach: I am reading your paper. The template is used is the suggested one for ELS. Do you have a link for the template handy. I think I have seen slightly different designs.
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2021-01-13T09:18:27Z beach: jeosol: I guess it must be on the ELS website.
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2021-01-13T09:18:40Z beach: Or, rather, the link to it.
2021-01-13T09:18:41Z jeosol: beach: thanks, I get it from there then.
2021-01-13T09:19:37Z beach: jeosol: I just copy my old papers and modify them.  It is entirely possible that my template is out of date.
2021-01-13T09:19:39Z jeosol: I am taken by the comment in the abstract that presence of optional and/or keyword argument impacts function call performance
2021-01-13T09:20:08Z jeosol: oh ok. I recally having seen a different format. No worries, I'd pick one from the site and create a base template folder
2021-01-13T09:20:25Z beach: "taken by" in what way?
2021-01-13T09:20:50Z beach: Or you can pick up one of my papers. :)  It is in SICL/Papers/...
2021-01-13T09:21:47Z beach: It's on the ELS site.
2021-01-13T09:22:09Z beach: Under "Submissions"
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2021-01-13T09:22:51Z jeosol: by "taken by", I mean understand how bad design may reduce performance, and certain styles are better. I'd have to read everything to get the full gist
2021-01-13T09:23:06Z jeosol: for the paper, I was referring the the tex sources
2021-01-13T09:24:41Z beach: I don't know how much you know about the design of a typical Common Lisp system, but keyword parameter must typically be parsed by the callee for each call.  The rules are complicated.  For example, the same keyword argument may occur more than once, and it's the first one that counts.
2021-01-13T09:25:37Z beach: And if :ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS <true> occurs somewhere in the argument list, then no error should be signaled for unrecognized keyword/argument pairs.
2021-01-13T09:25:43Z jeosol: No, I am not a compiler guy, at all, I am mostly application focused, i.e., using the language. I have only started getting deep in the internals as I try to improve performance and get better design
2021-01-13T09:25:50Z jeosol: so the paper will help in that regard
2021-01-13T09:26:02Z beach: I see.
2021-01-13T09:26:26Z beach: Well, as the paper says, compiler macros are often used to avoid this parsing in many cases.
2021-01-13T09:26:27Z jeosol: yes,  with the multiple keyword, the first one is the one that counts/is taken
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2021-01-13T09:26:36Z jeosol: I remember that
2021-01-13T09:26:53Z beach: So the callee must loop over all the arguments in order.
2021-01-13T09:26:53Z jeosol: yes, and also the :allow-other-keys
2021-01-13T09:27:11Z beach: So the arguments must probably be saved in order on the stack.
2021-01-13T09:27:22Z beach: ... the keyword arguments at least.
2021-01-13T09:27:28Z jeosol: I have used that to cheat when I pass in a large set of keywords to make-instance
2021-01-13T09:27:37Z beach: Whereas for ordinary arguments, registers can be used.
2021-01-13T09:27:42Z beach: Right.
2021-01-13T09:27:48Z jeosol: I think it's interesting to understand how one can lose performance
2021-01-13T09:28:03Z jeosol: find details that needs to be understand
2021-01-13T09:28:11Z beach: Keyword arguments are very flexible, but if you do it naively, then they are very slow.
2021-01-13T09:28:43Z beach: But the technique in the paper basically creates an automatic compiler macro for each call site.
2021-01-13T09:29:49Z jeosol: That's the part I need to probably improve. I have an object with many slots and in my first iteration, I had a constructor with more keywords that slots as I have to pass other arguments, process then, create objects that are then passed into make-instance. I could probably make things better
2021-01-13T09:30:25Z beach: I see.
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2021-01-13T09:31:47Z ludston: jeosol: If you're gunning for efficient code, your constraint is more likely to be the garbage collector than function/method dispatch speed in my experience
2021-01-13T09:31:55Z beach: Also, in the naive case, the callee must check whether a certain argument was supplied at all, and if not, execute the initform for the corresponding parameter.  That's another test which are expensive these days.  With my technique, that test can often be skipped, because it is often clear from the call site whether it is given or not.  Barring APPLY of course.
2021-01-13T09:32:12Z jeosol: ludston: thanks for that
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2021-01-13T09:32:31Z seok: hey guys!
2021-01-13T09:32:46Z beach: jeosol: I don't recall you being worried about generic dispatch though.
2021-01-13T09:32:51Z jeosol: I have a case for an optimization that is doing table-look for the function calls, and I have feel it could be faster.
2021-01-13T09:33:02Z beach: Hello seok.
2021-01-13T09:33:08Z seok: Hi beach!
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2021-01-13T09:34:15Z jeosol: beach: I think the generic dispatch are okay. The most I have is dispatch on two classes (multiple dispatch cases).
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2021-01-13T09:34:36Z jeosol: I would have to do a benchmarking at least for the table lookup case and see
2021-01-13T09:34:45Z ludston: jeosol: I recommend you don't worry about how fast it is until it's going to be (or is) a problem, and then use statistical profiling techniques to make sure you know exactly what the bottleneck is
2021-01-13T09:35:16Z jeosol: that's what I meant - latter part of your comment
2021-01-13T09:35:31Z beach: PCL generic dispatch is not that great, which is why some SBCL users avoid generic functions.  I think that's a pity, because it's an implementation detail that may change.
2021-01-13T09:35:56Z jeosol: I am not too worried per se, because the practical application, calls to another application is the main bottle neck and can't be optimized
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2021-01-13T09:36:48Z frodef: beach: on the other hand, an abstraction that is avoided because of its implementation, has a problem one way or the other.
2021-01-13T09:36:49Z jeosol: beach: really beach. My application is CLOS heavy. It runs well though, but I haven't compared to anything else. It was just easier to build the class hierarchies that way
2021-01-13T09:37:44Z beach: frodef: In this case, the only problem seems to be that implementations were conceived at a time when memory was as fast as register operations.
2021-01-13T09:38:15Z jeosol: it will be nice (perhaps in the future) to get some documentation of these type of design considerations and why some are better than others, e.g., like examples when adding to list
2021-01-13T09:38:31Z frodef: beach: that sounds to me like a (potentially) serious problem...
2021-01-13T09:38:54Z beach: frodef: I am not sure what you mean?  Problem with the abstraction?
2021-01-13T09:39:36Z beach: jeosol: I think you are going to need SICL, once we have implemented all those techniques we came up with. :)
2021-01-13T09:39:45Z frodef: beach: yes, if the abstraction can only be implemented in ways that are (prohibitively) expensive.
2021-01-13T09:40:07Z beach: frodef: But I just told you that there are better ways.  And they are documented.
2021-01-13T09:40:33Z frodef: beach: sorry, I didn't get that. (I just logged on, might have missed it.)
2021-01-13T09:40:35Z beach: frodef: In this case, the ONLY problem seems to be that IMPLEMENTATIONS were conceived at a time when memory was as fast as register operations.
2021-01-13T09:41:09Z jeosol: beach: that will be nice, and I'd have a clear benchmark - my application is heavy with number crunching and it seems these additions will/should show differences with base SBCL
2021-01-13T09:41:23Z beach: frodef: Which is why I implemented the technique that most people now call "fastgf".
2021-01-13T09:41:33Z ludston: frodef: I agree with beach, long-term it is not a problem that generic dispatch is inefficient in current implementations, and short-term, it is only a problem if you are CPU-constrained... Which you almost never are these days
2021-01-13T09:41:35Z frodef: beach: ok, I misunderstood.
2021-01-13T09:42:33Z beach: frodef: Did you see the paper I wrote about it?
2021-01-13T09:43:11Z beach: http://metamodular.com/SICL/generic-dispatch.pdf
2021-01-13T09:44:06Z beach: scymtym has an adaptation of it for SBCL, but it seems it will never make it to the SBCL code base.
2021-01-13T09:44:25Z frodef: beach: no, I was just going to ask. thanks for the link. Is that "fastgf"?
2021-01-13T09:44:53Z frodef: why not into SBCL?
2021-01-13T09:44:55Z beach: It's what the cool kids (Bike, drmeister, karlosz, etc.) call my technique from that paper.
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2021-01-13T09:46:24Z beach: frodef: I don't know the details, and scymtym was a bit vague about it.  But the technique depends somewhat on how SICL represents standard objects, so a fair amount of restructuring of SBCL would be needed to take full advantage of it.
2021-01-13T09:46:44Z frodef: right
2021-01-13T09:47:13Z beach: frodef: Boy, you have a lot to catch up with, having been away for so long. :)
2021-01-13T09:47:25Z frodef: :)
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2021-01-13T09:47:55Z frodef: in general, imho the "almost nothing is CPU-bound" attitude is fine for applications, not so much for the language/runtime.
2021-01-13T09:48:19Z beach: Words of wisdom it seems.
2021-01-13T09:48:46Z beach: Here is another thing you may want to catch up with: http://metamodular.com/SICL/path-replication.pdf
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2021-01-13T09:49:22Z ludston: If you inline dispatch, then add a new method implementation that is more specific to somewhere already inlined, you have to go back everywhere you inlined it and change it?
2021-01-13T09:50:06Z beach: Correct.   Which is why generic functions are typically not inlined.
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2021-01-13T09:50:38Z beach: ludston: But with the technique in my (draft) paper, that is no problem.
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2021-01-13T09:52:48Z ludston: beach: I'm guessing the sbcl 'call history' isn't up to scratch
2021-01-13T09:53:19Z beach: The call history is still shared by all callers, so that won't be enough.
2021-01-13T09:54:46Z beach: ludston: There is a similar technique (but much less efficient) used by CMUCL and SBCL for MAKE-INSTANCE in particular.  The call site is replaced by a call to a new funcallable instance that works only for the particular argument list of that call site.  Then when the callee changes, the funcallable instance function is updated accordingly.
2021-01-13T09:55:32Z beach: But that technique involves another function call, so there will still be indirections.
2021-01-13T09:55:46Z beach: And the call protocol must be respected.
2021-01-13T09:56:44Z ludston: beach: But that may or may not be a problem if your cpu's branch prediction is good
2021-01-13T09:58:32Z beach: The call itself may not be a big problem, and saving on generic dispatch will help.  But by respecting the call protocol, I mean putting arguments in the agreed-upon places, loading the static environment, creating the callee stack frame, etc.  All that adds up.
2021-01-13T10:02:39Z frodef: btw what is the expected cost of a memory access that is a first-level chache hit (e.g. second access to same object) compared to a register access?
2021-01-13T10:02:57Z beach: Let me check...
2021-01-13T10:03:38Z ludston: It's some absurd exponential difference IIRC
2021-01-13T10:04:01Z White_Flame: iirc 2-4 cycles?
2021-01-13T10:04:04Z frodef: ludston: really? I'd expect the difference to be small..
2021-01-13T10:04:18Z beach: frodef: Core i7 Xeon blabla: L1 4 cycles, L2 10 cycles, L3 40-65 cycles.
2021-01-13T10:04:35Z White_Flame: but again, that latency is hidden by massive pipelining and out of order
2021-01-13T10:04:49Z ludston: Like the ratio between a cache miss and a cache hit is like the ratio between ram access and ssd access
2021-01-13T10:04:51Z frodef: still, much more than I expected.
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2021-01-13T10:05:29Z frodef: I imagined L1 cache was almost like a register.
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2021-01-13T10:06:37Z moon-child: note newer cpus have memory renamers that will put very hot memory locations in registers
2021-01-13T10:07:05Z moon-child: https://www.agner.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41 relevant
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2021-01-13T10:07:21Z frodef: moon-child: I seem to remember the stack works somewhat like that?
2021-01-13T10:08:10Z moon-child: stack will presumably generally be quite hot, but it's not limited to that; example there shows it indirecting rsi
2021-01-13T10:08:27Z ludston: New CPU's calculate a graph of the instructions that it is running next in order to run them in parallel. A branch misprediction means you have to throw that whole graph out and start again
2021-01-13T10:09:09Z ludston: Maybe not the whole graph.
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2021-01-13T10:09:31Z moon-child: yeah
2021-01-13T10:09:46Z moon-child: cpus usually speculate return addresses, with high probability--also looking at stack
2021-01-13T10:10:03Z moon-child: (though shared call and data stack is somewhat harmful for security since it enables rop)
2021-01-13T10:10:32Z ludston: I wonder how sbcl does in that regard? Probably really well given the benchmarks
2021-01-13T10:11:56Z frodef: (btw again it seems to me there's a difference between an application developer saying "branch prediction will fix that" etc, while a run-time must be careful to limit the (undue) pressure on such CPU resources.)
2021-01-13T10:12:37Z beach: frodef: I tend to agree with you.
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2021-01-13T10:13:03Z ludston: frodef: I agree that it is worth optimising the language in any way possible
2021-01-13T10:13:31Z beach is working on it.
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2021-01-13T10:14:26Z ludston: beach: Thanks :0
2021-01-13T10:15:40Z frodef can't seem to find the thumbs-up icon on this weird social media platform.
2021-01-13T10:16:07Z phoe: frodef: IRC does not have thumbs ups yet
2021-01-13T10:16:30Z beach: Some people disagree though.  For example, stassats doesn't think that requiring two tests instead of one, for each loop over a list, is a problem.  And he doesn't think registers are that much faster than the stack.
2021-01-13T10:16:45Z frodef: phoe: ..nor the irony icon ;)
2021-01-13T10:16:58Z phoe: :D
2021-01-13T10:17:17Z beach: But I think those problems are fun to work on, so I will continue doing so.
2021-01-13T10:18:15Z ludston: DAE notice that around Christmas every year, there is a surge of lisp related articles on all the programming news sites?
2021-01-13T10:18:25Z frodef: btw CPUs are becoming quite clever at optimizing... for C-type runtimes. It's fun/sad to think what the state of CPUs might have been if dynamic run-times weren't weeded out in the 80s.
2021-01-13T10:19:01Z ludston: frodef: Dynamic run-times are dominant currently
2021-01-13T10:19:15Z frodef: ludston: yes, but in a rather roundabout way.
2021-01-13T10:20:43Z White_Flame: there's still barely any hardware GC support (and afaik what is in there isn't even used in major languages like Java), and still no support for tagged words
2021-01-13T10:20:49Z ludston: frodef: In a direct, explicitly dynamic way: Javascript, Python and all the byte-code langs like C# and Java
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2021-01-13T10:23:05Z frodef: ludston: I might be outdated, but e.g. python is basically a huge interpreter written in C, no?
2021-01-13T10:26:53Z ludston: frodef: What language the interpreter is written in is not necessarily relevant to the assembler/bytecode it emits. Pypython used to be a python interpreter written in python, but I just searched for it and it doesn't look like it is anymore
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2021-01-13T10:29:46Z frodef: ludston: is python typically ran as compiled machine code? Point is, iirc the "run-time" is basically a C program/state-machine driven by python text or bytecode.
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2021-01-13T10:30:16Z ludston: You basically need c to bootstrap for any new CPU architecture these days regardless. i.e. step 1, someone writes a C compiler for the new architecture, step 2, compile common lisp interpreter written in C, step 3: compile sbcl using that interpreter
2021-01-13T10:31:02Z frodef: in other words, if you have a C compiler, you also have a python "run-time".
2021-01-13T10:31:41Z beach: ludston: But that's beside the point, no?  Once you are done with that, you never use the C runtime again.
2021-01-13T10:31:50Z frodef: ludston: I don't think the CL compiler for the new CPU will magically appear just because you have a C compiler.
2021-01-13T10:32:30Z frodef: (is SBCL still based on C bootstrapping?)
2021-01-13T10:32:34Z ludston: frodef: Not sure how python works these days to be honest. They may or may not have a byte-code
2021-01-13T10:32:58Z ludston: No, to compile sbcl you need a common lisp runtime
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2021-01-13T10:35:03Z frodef: ludston: but do you need a CL runtime that is running on the (hypothetical) new CPU?
2021-01-13T10:35:33Z ludston: beach: That's my point. You can't argue languages with dynamic runtime are c-based once you don't need c
2021-01-13T10:37:47Z ludston: frodef: Yes, so either you have to write your own CL interpreter for the new CPU archictecture (a massive effort), or, just compile clisp and then use clisp to compile sbcl
2021-01-13T10:39:18Z ludston: At some stage you're going to need to tweak sbcl so that it will compile for the new architecture, but the point is that you only write lisp code
2021-01-13T10:39:22Z frodef: fwiw by "C-based" I meant similar to typical C code. For example C# run-time I suspect is heavily influenced by the performance model of CPUs as of 20 years ago, which again comes basically from C.
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2021-01-13T10:40:37Z ludston: C# makes me sad
2021-01-13T10:40:54Z dim: well then make it 40/50 years ago maybe, about the CPU and memory model used in the C langauge
2021-01-13T10:41:23Z frodef: or to rephrase: If all the resources that have gone into developing the 8086 since 1970 rather had gone into developing e.g. the Symbolics CPUs, who know where we'd been.
2021-01-13T10:41:34Z frodef: s
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2021-01-13T10:42:23Z dim: remember Alan Kay said that hindsight is worth 80 points of IQ
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2021-01-13T10:44:19Z ebrasca: frodef: There are other instruction sets, like ppc64.
2021-01-13T10:47:43Z beach: frodef: So what are your future plans, if any, for Common Lisp hacking?  Movitz2?
2021-01-13T10:48:11Z ludston: frodef: I think that Intel/AMD are going to optimize for javascript, and CL will come along for the ride
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2021-01-13T10:49:44Z beach: "Fredman"?
2021-01-13T10:50:34Z frodef: ludston: hopefully, yes.
2021-01-13T10:51:00Z frodef: beach: Not sure, something Fredman-ish hopefully.
2021-01-13T10:51:15Z beach: Great!
2021-01-13T10:51:47Z frodef: seems to me run-times are woefully underdeveloped in software engineering.
2021-01-13T10:52:03Z beach: Can you elaborate on that?
2021-01-13T10:52:14Z beach: Oh, you mean in the SE curricula?
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2021-01-13T10:52:33Z frodef: beach: both in theory/school and in practice/industry.
2021-01-13T10:52:43Z beach: I can believe that.
2021-01-13T10:52:53Z beach: Does that suggest a direction of work?
2021-01-13T10:53:42Z frodef: Seems to me a bit ironic, Information Technology that isn't able to handle information about itself very well, or at all.
2021-01-13T10:54:04Z beach: There is lots of irony in the software industry.
2021-01-13T10:54:41Z beach: It has got to be one of the least efficient domains.  At least I hope the others are better.
2021-01-13T10:54:42Z ck_: is that why mainframes used to be called "big iron" ?
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2021-01-13T10:55:27Z beach: "iron"ic?  Oh dear!
2021-01-13T10:56:54Z frodef: my kids would call this a "dad-joke" and give me a look.
2021-01-13T10:57:47Z beach: frodef: Are you currently employed in the software industry?  If so, is your plan to transform it?  Seems kind of hard, no?
2021-01-13T10:58:23Z frodef: btw. I find that quicklisp and cliki.net are great for finding and loading libraries, but is there nothing in the way of "canonical" or "preferred" lists of library code?
2021-01-13T10:58:44Z ludston: frodef: the awesome-cl github repo is pretty good
2021-01-13T10:58:44Z beach: Nope, advice is given here.
2021-01-13T10:59:11Z beach: ludston: First time I hear about it.
2021-01-13T10:59:17Z ludston: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl
2021-01-13T11:00:07Z frodef: beach: no plan to save the world quite yet...
2021-01-13T11:00:26Z phoe: +1 for awesome-cl
2021-01-13T11:00:38Z frodef: beach: ... wait for retirement, move somewhere warm, and start hacking maybe? :)
2021-01-13T11:02:54Z frodef: ludston: thanks
2021-01-13T11:07:30Z beach: Oh, but I don't see the crucial information that many people want, i.e., which of similar libraries is preferable and for what reason.
2021-01-13T11:09:12Z beach: For example, the other day we were told that CL-WHO is not recommended, because it is buggy and incomplete, and not being worked on.
2021-01-13T11:09:18Z beach: I don't see that information here.
2021-01-13T11:10:07Z ludston: TODO: Pull request
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2021-01-13T11:11:31Z ludston: Ah actually, "For example, we prefer Spinneret over Cl-Who."
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2021-01-13T11:16:48Z ebrasca: ludston: Why Spinneret over Cl-Who?
2021-01-13T11:17:46Z ludston: ebrasca: No idea haha. Probably because CL-WHO is alegedly buggy and incomplete
2021-01-13T11:19:08Z ebrasca: ludston: I have never have any problem whith cl-who.
2021-01-13T11:19:41Z phoe: claims are easy, proof is hard; I guess the proper rationale could be linked there
2021-01-13T11:24:47Z beach: ebrasca: This information came from the author, so I assume it can be trusted.
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2021-01-13T11:43:44Z flip214: hmmm, > In the trade-off between 90% convenience and 10% correctness Spinneret is on the side of convenience.
2021-01-13T11:44:22Z Gnuxie[m]: Yeah that's a very strange thing to say
2021-01-13T11:44:39Z ebrasca: Updated my page to use spinneret.
2021-01-13T11:45:40Z flip214: Gnuxie[m]: I guess that means that if you have a function bound on a keyword symbol (I've got a few, for debugging), you can't easily call it - (:h2 ) gives you a <h2>, after all.
2021-01-13T11:46:34Z Gnuxie[m]: Right ok
2021-01-13T11:48:31Z flip214: looks mostly cl-who compatible... I'll give it a try
2021-01-13T11:49:11Z flip214: beach: but wouldn't every (good) engineer warn about probable bugs in her code?
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2021-01-13T12:12:01Z flip214: hmmm, spinneret seems to take 2x as long as cl-who for generating a simple HTML document...
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2021-01-13T12:13:06Z flip214: but it does so much more (indentation, counting header levels, quoting only when needed, etc) that it's no surprise
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2021-01-13T12:45:52Z frodef: but why oh why won't spinneret do the ((:tag :attr ..) ..) syntax?
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2021-01-13T12:52:32Z flip214: frodef: do you have a compelling reason to prefer that way?
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2021-01-13T13:02:07Z xificurC: ludston the canonical python implementation is CPython, which is written in C. Python code is either read from a .py file (source code) or from a .pyc file (bytecode). The interpreter automatically tucks away the generated .pyc files for later reuse and reloads the .py files if they are newer than the .pyc files
2021-01-13T13:02:58Z xificurC: then there's https://www.pypy.org/ , which is a tracing JIT compiler
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2021-01-13T13:05:35Z xificurC: the pypy toolchain is interesting, you write in a subset of python and the toolchain generates a tracing JIT for you
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2021-01-13T13:08:38Z frodef: flip214: better indenting, I also think it's more explict and clear.
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2021-01-13T13:35:13Z mfiano: As beach mentioned, cl-who is quite buggy, and the author no longer maintains it and is not sure how to fix some of the issues it has, and we're talking about a pretty smart guy who is well-known in the community. He also authored 'Common Lisp Recipes', a book that makes no mention of cl-who for the topic of HTML generation, for the aforementioned reason. If the author recommends other libraries over
2021-01-13T13:35:14Z mfiano: his own, it says something I would think.
2021-01-13T13:36:08Z mfiano: Source: The author himself:
2021-01-13T13:36:21Z mfiano: Hi Michael,Thanks for your feedback.  I'm not maintaining CL-WHO or my otherlibraries anymore and I'm pretty sure there are better HTML generationlibraries out there nowadays (two of which I'm also mentioning in mybook).  The problem you're referring to is unfortunately inherent tothe way CL-WHO is implemented and I'm not aware of an easy fix.Best regards,Edi.
2021-01-13T13:36:44Z phoe: awesome-cl should get to know that via some sorta issue then
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2021-01-13T13:40:26Z beach: I think the crucial information that frodef was looking for is absent in awesome-cl.  Perhaps in most cases it is not as clear as for CL-WHO ("don't use it...").  But people often look for relative advantages and disadvantages, like generality, run-time performance, compilation time, ease of use, active development, existing maintainer, etc.
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2021-01-13T13:44:09Z mfiano: One thing I can say for certain after quite a few years doing web development in CL (though, admittedly, this was a few years ago), is there are about a dozen libraries fitting the purpose and they all fall flat. I think this is partially because of the mess that is the web itself, and partly because there is no concerted effort on such a library. One developer can do an 80% solution for their own
2021-01-13T13:44:11Z mfiano: use-case quite easily.
2021-01-13T13:44:12Z beach: So, ideally, a list like that should include such comparisons of similar libraries, and perhaps some absolute information when a library is fairly unique, like "embryonic", "needs work in ...", "performance could be better".
2021-01-13T13:44:39Z Xach: Sabra Crolleton has done some fantastic work for that for some domains
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2021-01-13T13:45:05Z frodef: Seems to me that "canonical" libraries are an important aspect of a programming language. In some important sense, libraries for common functionality is really part of the common language itself.
2021-01-13T13:45:14Z Xach: https://sabracrolleton.github.io/json-review for example
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2021-01-13T13:45:46Z beach: frodef: Maybe, but we are far from that situation still.
2021-01-13T13:45:54Z frodef: having common libraries is important in the same sense it's important not to write your own macros for IF etc.
2021-01-13T13:46:46Z frodef just had a peek at the source for htmlgen from franz.
2021-01-13T13:49:22Z ralt: that makes me wonder, is parenscript maintained?
2021-01-13T13:50:12Z ralt: I made some extensions to it to support async/await a while ago but I'm not sure if I should contribute them back
2021-01-13T13:51:11Z ralt: it's also missing a tons of symbols (to make the symbol mangling work) of recent-ish additions (say, over the past 10 years), so that indicates to me that it's quite close to dead, but I never actually looked
2021-01-13T13:51:37Z frodef: btw. I did get a response from someone not Edi to my cl-who bug-report.
2021-01-13T13:52:48Z mfiano: ralt: It is not dead
2021-01-13T13:54:41Z ralt: ok. I'll try contributing back then.
2021-01-13T13:55:02Z mfiano: There seems to be recent activity on its issue tracker, and commits by the maintainer.
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2021-01-13T14:06:30Z xificurC: I always browse the cliki recommended list of libraries, yet noone mentioned it here. Is it out of date?
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2021-01-13T14:07:40Z xificurC: awesome-cl is nice but as beach points out there's when there's a list of libraries you have no idea which one is recommended
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2021-01-13T14:31:13Z flip214: Well, as one(!) of the reasons I'm proposing CL is "speed" (as in "reduces number of required hardware boxes for given workload"), requiring twice the time to generate some HTML hurts quite a bit - that amounts to twice the hardware (compared to CL-WHO) and reduces the utility of my proposed solutions
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2021-01-13T14:38:01Z beach: To whom are you proposing Common Lisp?
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2021-01-13T14:47:10Z xificurC: is iterate usable without `use-package`ing it? From a REPL session I can't get it to work. Something like `(iter:iter (for i from 1 to 10) (collect i))` spurts a number of undefined function/variable warnings
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2021-01-13T14:49:30Z xificurC: this works and is very readable `(iter:iter (iter:for iter::i iter::from 1 iter::to 10) (iter:collect iter::i))`
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2021-01-13T14:53:49Z _death: you can use import-from
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2021-01-13T14:55:10Z travv0: or `(iter:iter (iter:for i from 1 to 10) (iter:collect i))`
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2021-01-13T14:59:41Z _death: sbcl has iter::(iter (for i from 1 to 10) (collect i)) but it's unlikely that you want that
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2021-01-13T15:03:04Z beach: xificurC: There should be no particular reason to put your own variables in the ITER package.
2021-01-13T15:03:21Z beach: xificurC: And you can use a package-local nickname, like I for ITER.
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2021-01-13T15:04:27Z beach: xificurC: That would make it: (i:iter (i:for i i:from 1 i:to 10) (iter:collect i))
2021-01-13T15:05:04Z travv0: iterate doesn't export from and to
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2021-01-13T15:05:12Z travv0: so just (i:iter (i:for i from 1 to 10) (i:collect i))
2021-01-13T15:05:21Z beach: Then :USE-ing it won't help.
2021-01-13T15:06:06Z beach: Oh, so it uses the names for the other keywords.  Got it.
2021-01-13T15:06:23Z travv0: yep
2021-01-13T15:08:16Z beach: That's not too bad then.
2021-01-13T15:08:59Z beach: I mean, the package prefixes don't clutter the form too much.
2021-01-13T15:09:25Z travv0: i agree
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2021-01-13T17:41:52Z devon: Unhappy with M-x irc, mainly because not comint based & randomly trashes command history.  Any suggestions?
2021-01-13T17:42:47Z frodef: I'm using erc, but it's not that great really.
2021-01-13T17:43:05Z charles`: I was using erc, but switched to pidgin
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2021-01-13T17:46:38Z markasoftware: can someone recommend a quicklisp library for finding the roots of a polynomial with the given coefficients?
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2021-01-13T18:12:03Z phoe: sounds like you could use maxima, in theory
2021-01-13T18:12:33Z phoe: I remember someone was working on an interface to use it from within CL
2021-01-13T18:12:56Z phoe: or even lapack maybe?
2021-01-13T18:15:31Z astronavt: are there GSL bindings for CL already?
2021-01-13T18:15:31Z astronavt: https://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/doc/html/poly.html
2021-01-13T18:15:44Z astronavt: https://common-lisp.net/project/gsll/
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2021-01-13T18:45:28Z frodef: slightly off-topic, but can anyone tell me when I am editing a file in emacs that is under git, how can I get a buffer with a previous revision of that file?
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2021-01-13T18:49:06Z jeosol: you want to see the files side by side?
2021-01-13T18:49:10Z jeosol: Do you use magit?
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2021-01-13T18:49:58Z frodef: I just want to see the old revision, plainly.
2021-01-13T18:50:15Z frodef: I use just the default vc thingy, I believe.
2021-01-13T18:50:20Z jeosol: frodef: I see
2021-01-13T18:50:31Z jeosol: so it's not possible?
2021-01-13T18:50:35Z frodef: (should I use magit?)
2021-01-13T18:50:55Z frodef: hopefully it's possible, but it's not obvious enough for me to figure out...
2021-01-13T18:51:10Z jeosol: I think it's possible, I just asked if you use magit as part of your workflow
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2021-01-13T18:51:38Z jeosol: but if you are just trying to view the diff, then magit is probably an overkill.
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2021-01-13T18:53:10Z frodef: not even a diff, just the plain file version that I checked in some days ago.. seems to me the most basic of operations, but somehow it's not obvious how to do it.
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2021-01-13T18:53:51Z jeosol: frodef: you'd check it out from git commit and then view it right.
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2021-01-13T18:56:13Z frodef: or rather, I can do M-x vc-revision-other-window, but I don't know how to name an old revision. Probably I don't understand git.
2021-01-13T18:56:48Z ck_: you can say HEAD^ for the previous, or HEAD~23 for the 23th-previous one, for example
2021-01-13T18:58:01Z ck_: "23rd" even -- how embarrassing!  I'll now hide before someone "off-topic!"s me out of here
2021-01-13T18:59:12Z frodef: ck_: thanks! (I'm surprised/frustrated that I can't seem to find a menu over old revisions, though.)
2021-01-13T18:59:57Z ck_: you should try magit, it's very helpful
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2021-01-13T19:01:04Z frodef: ck_: ok. I just thought I could use vc pretty much like I used to do with CVS, but I guess not.
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2021-01-13T19:02:14Z ck_: you probably can, I don't have experience with that though.  Many things are probably just personal preference, but it's generally accepted that magit is very polished, and its menu system is (I think) easy to pick up
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2021-01-13T22:15:26Z frodef: I fell silly for asking this, but what is the preferred idiom for taking the subset of a list by some predicate?
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2021-01-13T22:16:02Z frodef: "filter" I suppose.
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2021-01-13T22:16:19Z travv0: remove-if-not
2021-01-13T22:16:32Z travv0: or remove-if
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2021-01-13T22:17:32Z frodef: yes, but remove-if-not and the :test-not args are "deprecated", which makes me suspect there's supposed to be another way...
2021-01-13T22:17:57Z Bike: nope, use remove-if-not.
2021-01-13T22:18:15Z Bike: it was deprecated like twenty years ago because they thought COMPLEMENT would be more useful.
2021-01-13T22:18:53Z Bike: but there is no problem using remove-if-not and even if there was somehow a new standard revision, they probably wouldn't actually remove it.
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2021-01-13T22:29:20Z mfiano: It's surprisingly actually smaller code size on SBCL, too (though code zie is not a good measure of performance).
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2021-01-13T22:29:39Z mfiano: zie? size
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2021-01-13T22:31:49Z charles`: filter = remove-if right?
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2021-01-13T22:33:28Z mfiano: remove-if-not
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2021-01-13T22:52:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, a falsey return value of the predicate to filter removes the value
2021-01-13T22:52:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: so, REMOVE-IF-NOT
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2021-01-13T22:54:36Z frodef: Bike: right, thanks, COMPLEMENT was probably the piece of the puzzle I'd forgotten about.
2021-01-13T22:55:25Z frodef: I do find the double negative of remove-if-not quite annoying, though.
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2021-01-13T22:57:04Z frodef: ...and even more so for (remove keep-value ... :test-not 'eql), which is not very readable at all.
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2021-01-13T23:00:57Z frodef: -- "Several alternative names for REMOVE-IF-NOT were suggested: KEEP-IF, ABSTRACT, FILTER. We did not pursue these suggestions." Oh well.
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2021-01-13T23:13:22Z phoe: RETAIN too
2021-01-13T23:18:57Z frodef: how about DONTUNREMOVE ?
2021-01-13T23:18:59Z frodef: :)
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2021-01-13T23:50:08Z phoe: PLEASE-KINDLY-RETAIN-WHILST-PREDICATE-IS-NAUGHT
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2021-01-13T23:56:02Z eta: phoe: WHOMSTVE-DARE-RETAIN
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2021-01-13T23:56:46Z phoe: yes
2021-01-13T23:56:59Z phoe: also s/WHILST/WHENEVER/
2021-01-13T23:57:05Z phoe: it's IF, not WHILE, after all
2021-01-13T23:57:16Z Xach: eta: that is best
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2021-01-14T00:06:59Z aeth: I'm surprised that a possible alternative to REMOVE-IF-NOT wasn't REMOVE-UNLESS
2021-01-14T00:07:08Z aeth: UNLESS is (almost) IF-NOT in the language...
2021-01-14T00:07:34Z White_Flame: it's NOT-WHEN
2021-01-14T00:07:41Z aeth: right
2021-01-14T00:07:53Z aeth: a true IF-NOT in the language would have a second branch and just reverse the order of the IF
2021-01-14T00:08:08Z aeth: so (if-not test else then)
2021-01-14T00:08:52Z White_Flame: (remove-if-not (lambda (x) (not-when ...)) ...
2021-01-14T00:09:03Z aeth: (defmacro if-not (test then &optional else) `(if ,test ,else ,then))
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2021-01-14T00:14:21Z Xach:  /win 2
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2021-01-14T01:54:07Z edgar-rft: I've heard REMOVE-UNLESS does the opposite of REMOVE-UNMORE
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2021-01-14T01:56:08Z White_Flame: for most cases, REMOVE-UNFEWER would be more grammatically correct
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2021-01-14T02:12:35Z dbotton: if anyone over next day or so has time and can try out my tutorial 8 from CLOG running at http://office.botton.com:8080/ I made some critical changes from last test (thank you for using it those that did). The source is at https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/tutorial/08-tutorial.lisp
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2021-01-14T02:14:13Z brandflake11: Hey all, I have a question for you all. I am writing a function in lisp, and need to create a list out of the function's arguments. Here is what I have for the function:
2021-01-14T02:14:23Z brandflake11: (defun pick-three (note1 note2 note3)
2021-01-14T02:14:24Z brandflake11:   (let ((note-list (list (note1 note2 note3))))
2021-01-14T02:14:24Z brandflake11: 	(nth (random 3) note-list)))
2021-01-14T02:14:24Z brandflake11:  
2021-01-14T02:14:50Z brandflake11: Now, when I run this, it has errors of course
2021-01-14T02:14:56Z Bike: please use a pastebin service for multi-line pastes. anyway, so this function is supposed to randomly select and return one of its three arguments?
2021-01-14T02:15:15Z brandflake11: Yes, exactly, and sorry about the pastebin thing
2021-01-14T02:15:40Z Bike: The only problem I see in this paste is that you meant to write (list note1 note2 note3).
2021-01-14T02:15:57Z Alfr: brandflake11, assuming note1 isn't a function, there's your error.
2021-01-14T02:16:03Z Bike: other than that it works, though it might not be the best way to do it.
2021-01-14T02:16:42Z brandflake11: Alfr: What do you mean by this?
2021-01-14T02:17:07Z Bike: you wrote (note1 note2 note3). this means it will call the function NOTE1 with two arguments. Since there's no function called NOTE1, you get an error.
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2021-01-14T02:17:29Z Alfr: brandflake11, what Bike said above. You want (list n1 n2 n3), not (list (n1 n2 n3)).
2021-01-14T02:17:45Z Bike: your compiler might alert you to this. SBCL says "Undefined function: NOTE1" when you compile, and "The function NOTE1 is undefined" when you actually call it.
2021-01-14T02:17:51Z brandflake11: Oh, I see
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2021-01-14T02:18:33Z brandflake11: Thanks so much all, it works now!
2021-01-14T02:18:41Z brandflake11: Is there a better way to take the arguments and make a list?
2021-01-14T02:19:11Z Bike: No, but if you all you want to do is pick one of the arguments randomly, you probably don't need to make a list.
2021-01-14T02:19:13Z brandflake11: I tried '(note1 note2 note3), but they gave me the literal variable names as members in the list
2021-01-14T02:19:48Z brandflake11: Bike: I see. I'm not sure what function would help with that though.
2021-01-14T02:19:59Z brandflake11: Is there a function that returns nth of arguments?
2021-01-14T02:20:05Z saturn2: you can do (defun pick-random (&rest args) (nth (random (length args)) args))
2021-01-14T02:20:32Z brandflake11: I haven't learned about &rest yet, but that's something I need to look into
2021-01-14T02:22:06Z brandflake11: Oh shoot, does that mean I can use any number of arguments?
2021-01-14T02:22:15Z saturn2: yes
2021-01-14T02:22:28Z brandflake11: That's awesome! Thanks so much, I appreciate everyone's help
2021-01-14T02:23:24Z brandflake11: Does the &rest args stand for something? Like is it an abbreviation of a phrase in English?
2021-01-14T02:23:45Z Alfr: There's call-arguments-limit .
2021-01-14T02:24:49Z saturn2: rest is just the word rest, as in the rest of the arguments
2021-01-14T02:25:00Z saturn2: and args is short for arguments
2021-01-14T02:25:14Z brandflake11: saturn2: I see. That makes sense
2021-01-14T02:25:44Z saturn2: args is just a variable name which can be anything you want
2021-01-14T02:26:08Z brandflake11: Oh, and args can substitute where you want the arguments.
2021-01-14T02:26:18Z brandflake11: It's like a meta-variable
2021-01-14T02:27:07Z saturn2: it's just a regular variable, which holds a list of the rest of the arguments
2021-01-14T02:27:36Z brandflake11: That makes more sense
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2021-01-14T02:40:30Z brandflake11: One more question: can you use &rest with other mandatory variables? Like (note1 note2 &rest args) making note1 and note2 arguments mandatory?
2021-01-14T02:41:34Z brandflake11: Sorry, I meant mandatory arguments
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2021-01-14T02:43:18Z saturn2: yes, you can
2021-01-14T02:43:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you know you have 3 arguments, something like this is probably better: (define pick-three (a b c) (ecase (random 3) (0 a) (1 b) (2 c)))
2021-01-14T02:43:48Z brandflake11: saturn2: that is absolutely sweet
2021-01-14T02:44:16Z brandflake11: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks for this suggestion. I'll look into the ecase function!
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2021-01-14T02:45:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: My laptop autocorrected defun there...
2021-01-14T02:45:57Z brandflake11: Oh, I didn't even notice
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2021-01-14T02:50:19Z saturn2: yes, fiddlerwoaroof's way is more efficient
2021-01-14T02:50:35Z brandflake11: saturn2: What makes it more efficient? Is it easier on memory?
2021-01-14T02:50:47Z brandflake11: saturn2: Or is just a matter of the programming notation
2021-01-14T02:50:47Z brandflake11: ?
2021-01-14T02:51:02Z saturn2: both memory and cpu, it doesn't have to allocate a list or iterate over the list
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2021-01-14T02:53:47Z brandflake11: saturn2: That is good to know about and keep in mind
2021-01-14T02:54:12Z saturn2: you could also get the best of both by adding (define-compiler-macro pick-random (&rest args) `(ecase (random ,(length args)) ,@(loop for arg in args for i from 0 collect (list i arg))))
2021-01-14T02:55:14Z brandflake11: saturn2: Oh jeez, this one looks a little above my head :D
2021-01-14T02:55:38Z brandflake11: That notation is interesting
2021-01-14T02:56:52Z saturn2: that's called quasiquote, it's basically a template
2021-01-14T02:57:17Z saturn2: that macro writes code like what fiddlerwoaroof wrote, but for any number of arguments
2021-01-14T02:58:16Z brandflake11: saturn2: So the macro writes the lisp code itself?
2021-01-14T02:58:41Z saturn2: yeah, that's how macros work
2021-01-14T02:59:38Z saturn2: they are functions that return lisp code, which is then inserted in place of the macro call
2021-01-14T02:59:57Z brandflake11: saturn2: I haven't learned about macros yet either. But man, that is really cool.
2021-01-14T03:01:26Z brandflake11: With a macro, could you create a loop that makes a series of lisp code?
2021-01-14T03:02:34Z saturn2: you mean a macro that recursively uses itself? yes, you can
2021-01-14T03:03:55Z saturn2: and of course you can have regular loops in your macro, the one i wrote above has one
2021-01-14T03:04:57Z brandflake11: :O Wow, that is insane.
2021-01-14T03:05:27Z brandflake11: Would you mind explaining what the ` , and ,@ means in the quasiquote?
2021-01-14T03:05:35Z brandflake11: Or direct me to a good page to read about them?
2021-01-14T03:05:52Z brandflake11: I am looking at the hyperspec, but sometimes it goes a bit over my head
2021-01-14T03:07:05Z aeth: brandflake11: So with quote, it basically follows the distributive property. '(a b c) is essentially like (list 'a 'b 'c) just like (* z (+ x y)) is like (+ (* z x) (* z y))
2021-01-14T03:07:27Z aeth: Quasiquote is a quote you can unquote. `(a b c) is essentially the same as '(a b c) because there's nothing to unquote so it's just all quoted.
2021-01-14T03:07:49Z aeth: `(a ,b c) however, will "unquote" b and so it's like (list 'a b 'c) instead of like (list 'a 'b 'c)
2021-01-14T03:07:58Z aeth: i.e. it will try to look up the variable b
2021-01-14T03:08:32Z brandflake11: aeth: Thanks so much for the explanation. What does the ,@ mean?
2021-01-14T03:09:05Z aeth: ,@ is a bit more complicated. It's unquote splicing. It basically appends the inner list into the outer list
2021-01-14T03:09:11Z aeth: So `(a b ,@'(c d e) f) => (A B C D E F)
2021-01-14T03:09:26Z aeth: Notice that '(c d e) is quoted. Because otherwise it will try to funcall c
2021-01-14T03:09:49Z brandflake11: aeth: Thanks, I was just about to ask you about that last point
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2021-01-14T03:09:57Z aeth: This last part is because you'll probably really just do `(a b ,@(some-function) f)
2021-01-14T03:10:58Z aeth: As for why you'd need ,@ it's mostly for targeting some macros like LOOP, e.g. (loop repeat 3 do (print "hi"))
2021-01-14T03:11:09Z saturn2: my code above collects a list of ecase clauses and splices them into place
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2021-01-14T03:11:49Z aeth: If you're writing a macro with quasiquote that generates a loop, you'll probably have to do something like this: (loop ,@(generate-the-clause-here) do (print "hi"))
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2021-01-14T03:12:01Z aeth: well, with loop quasiquoted, of course
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2021-01-14T03:12:09Z brandflake11: saturn2: That makes sense, since you don't want separate lists together. You want one lits
2021-01-14T03:12:12Z brandflake11: *list
2021-01-14T03:12:59Z aeth: The other time you see ,@ a lot is with `(progn ,@body) in macros that have an &body body which is essentially just giving you the rest as a list just like &rest rest
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2021-01-14T03:15:31Z brandflake11:  Do you all ever get confused with the amount of ' you have to apply?
2021-01-14T03:15:44Z aeth: The defmacro for WHEN might look something like this (name changed so you can evaluate it): (defmacro when* (test &body forms) `(if ,test (progn ,@forms) nil))
2021-01-14T03:15:52Z aeth: nested 's aren't that big of a deal
2021-01-14T03:15:57Z aeth: nested `s are extremely confusing
2021-01-14T03:16:08Z aeth: At that point, just use helper functions to keep it simple
2021-01-14T03:18:33Z aeth: If a function is (defined in another file that's loaded first) or (wrapped in an EVAL-WHEN) then it can be used as a helper function... at least for macros; I've never really had to use compiler macros.
2021-01-14T03:19:42Z brandflake11: aeth: Oh, that makes more sense.
2021-01-14T03:20:33Z brandflake11: Is a helper function one that is previously defined to be used in another function?
2021-01-14T03:20:50Z brandflake11: Sorry if that's a silly question
2021-01-14T03:21:33Z aeth: I personally see it as a function that's designed to keep another function (or a macro) short/simple/easy even if it's only going to be called from one caller (at least, outside of unit tests)
2021-01-14T03:21:45Z aeth: but it doesn't have an official hyperspec definition afaik
2021-01-14T03:22:28Z brandflake11: I apologize again for another question, but what exactly is a unit test?
2021-01-14T03:22:30Z aeth: A lot of people don't like functions that are only called from one place, but I love them, especially in macros.
2021-01-14T03:22:45Z aeth: As for unit tests, those are tests of a unit... usually a function or a class or things like that afaik.
2021-01-14T03:23:18Z aeth: If you break up a big, messy macro into lots of functions, then you can test to make sure that any changes you make don't change any of those functions, which gives you more confidence to mess around with really tricky macros
2021-01-14T03:24:15Z aeth: If you just have the macro, then you'll have to write a lot of tests on the macro directly, probably with MACROEXPAND-1 to test expanding the macro
2021-01-14T03:27:16Z aeth: More concreately, you could have a function for your macro that turns (foo bar baz) into ((foo (make-quux 'foo)) (bar (make-quux 'bar)) (baz (make-quux 'baz))) and this is small, simple, and easy to test.
2021-01-14T03:28:08Z aeth: then the macro itself just does something like `(let ,(your-function input) ,@body)
2021-01-14T03:28:48Z brandflake11: aeth: Have you had to change the way you format your macros in professional environments because some people don't like formatting like that?
2021-01-14T03:30:20Z aeth: Try to match the style of the person who originally wrote the file. There are lots of little things that can be different in styles.
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2021-01-14T03:30:53Z aeth: In general, though, writing macros is rare.
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2021-01-14T03:39:03Z brandflake11: Thanks to all of the help I received on here. I have created my random sequencer in common music successfully!
2021-01-14T03:39:42Z saturn2: nice :)
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2021-01-14T04:12:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2021-01-14T04:14:28Z Dizidentu: good morning
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2021-01-14T04:30:08Z beach: FILTER is not a great name for a filtering function, because it doesn't say whether the objects for which the predicate returns true are kept or discarded.  REMOVE-IF and REMOVE-IF-NOT are much better.
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2021-01-14T04:43:50Z beach: Dizidentu: So I saw in the logs that you are a C++ programmer.  I think it would be a good idea for you to learn some Common Lisp to get another perspective on programming.
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2021-01-14T05:55:20Z Dizidentu: beach I have python on my list before lisp
2021-01-14T05:55:42Z beach: Oh, that's a bad idea.
2021-01-14T05:55:59Z Dizidentu: they are the same purpose?
2021-01-14T05:56:08Z Dizidentu: is lisp like python?
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2021-01-14T05:56:17Z Dizidentu: anyways
2021-01-14T05:56:21Z beach: Python is a pure interpreter, which means you can't really get any performance out of it, unless you write your code in C.
2021-01-14T05:56:44Z beach: Most Common Lisp systems compile on the fly, so you can write all your code in a truly high-level language.
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2021-01-14T05:57:21Z beach: Furthermore, Python is not homoiconic, so you can't really do any metaprogramming in it, like macros.
2021-01-14T05:57:50Z White_Flame: each languages seems to have its own definition of "metaprogramming".  For python, it seems to be adding hooks on object methods
2021-01-14T05:58:06Z White_Flame does not accept that definition
2021-01-14T05:58:13Z Dizidentu: :)
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2021-01-14T05:58:29Z beach: White_Flame: Thanks.  I am not following the Python terminology, so I appreciate the information.
2021-01-14T05:58:41Z Dizidentu: I would stay but I just got back and I want to catch this flight into slumber land while I still can :|
2021-01-14T05:59:19Z beach: Dizidentu: Sleep well.
2021-01-14T05:59:27Z Dizidentu: hey, thanks
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2021-01-14T06:01:17Z beach: And, no, I think the purpose of Python is as a "scripting language", whereas Common Lisp is a general-purpose programming language.
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2021-01-14T06:05:12Z saturn2: it doesn't seem like people care much about that distinction anymore
2021-01-14T06:05:50Z White_Flame: because most people don't actually do core programming anymore, but rather call libraries (iow scripting)
2021-01-14T06:05:50Z beach: But they should, shouldn't they?
2021-01-14T06:06:06Z White_Flame: one then should wonder where the libraries come from
2021-01-14T06:06:22Z beach: Mhm.
2021-01-14T06:06:50Z saturn2: i mean, people build full applications in python
2021-01-14T06:07:06Z White_Flame: and in tcl as well
2021-01-14T06:07:07Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.
2021-01-14T06:07:51Z beach: drmeister once showed us a site that gave the cost in electric power per computation unit for various languages, and Python is really bad.
2021-01-14T06:08:07Z beach: Sorry, electric ENERGY per computation unit.
2021-01-14T06:09:16Z saturn2: yeah, the python interpreter is astonishingly slow
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2021-01-14T06:16:24Z parjanya: mornings! Is there a function, or an easy test... to check if an object can be printed readably?
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2021-01-14T06:23:46Z beach: Probably not.
2021-01-14T06:24:35Z beach: The answer would be influenced by things like methods on PRINT-OBJECT, and the existence of reader macros.
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2021-01-14T06:29:18Z White_Flame: (handler-case (let ((*print-readably* t)) (write-to-string <item> nil)) (t (t) t))
2021-01-14T06:29:19Z White_Flame: "easy" test?
2021-01-14T06:29:29Z White_Flame: oops, NIL outside the write-to-string, as a return value
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2021-01-14T06:31:10Z White_Flame: actually, (ignore-errors (...try to print readably...) t), returning NIL if it isn't readable, is easier
2021-01-14T06:31:27Z White_Flame: *readably printable
2021-01-14T06:33:53Z parjanya: ah, very good idea, thanks! I tried finding a way to chase the method for printing, but no luck
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2021-01-14T07:01:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: That'll still output #< reader macros
2021-01-14T07:02:58Z White_Flame: could be.  Printing and testing for a "#<" prefix was my first idea
2021-01-14T07:03:19Z beach: White_Flame: That's a nice idea!
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2021-01-14T07:04:17Z White_Flame: I just tested with function objects, and those blew up when *print-readably* was set
2021-01-14T07:04:54Z flip214: how about reading the printed output in a ignore-case?
2021-01-14T07:04:58Z flip214: *ignore-errors
2021-01-14T07:05:09Z White_Flame: yep, read a few lines more
2021-01-14T07:05:19Z White_Flame: (irc lines)
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2021-01-14T07:05:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: This works (let ((*print-readably* t)) (write-to-string (make-hash-table)))
2021-01-14T07:05:55Z parjanya: it works ok here with ignore-case even with functions
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2021-01-14T07:06:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: prints "#<hash-table>"
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2021-01-14T07:06:58Z White_Flame: disclaimer: what I proposed was an idea, not a solution ;)
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2021-01-14T07:08:53Z flip214: White_Flame: sorry, I haven't seen READ mentioned yet.
2021-01-14T07:08:54Z flip214: (read-from-string (with-output-to-string (s) (write '(1 2) :stream s :readably t)))
2021-01-14T07:09:08Z White_Flame: ah, nifty
2021-01-14T07:09:25Z parjanya: https://edgard.bikelis.com/lisp/printablep.txt
2021-01-14T07:10:23Z White_Flame: if you truly do want to prune the values, then (values (thing-that-returns-multiple-values...)) does only return the first
2021-01-14T07:10:50Z parjanya: I suspected there was a better way :-$ tx
2021-01-14T07:11:36Z parjanya: works beautifully on all my extensive five tests : o )
2021-01-14T07:11:57Z White_Flame: even hash tables?
2021-01-14T07:12:09Z parjanya: yep!
2021-01-14T07:12:27Z parjanya: I’m on CCL, so not sure about the others yet
2021-01-14T07:16:46Z parjanya: turns out clisp and sbcl do output something, sigh
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2021-01-14T07:17:50Z White_Flame: hmm, is that a bug re the standard?
2021-01-14T07:17:59Z White_Flame: implementation bugs, that is
2021-01-14T07:18:23Z White_Flame: "If printing an object readably is not possible, an error of type print-not-readable is signaled rather than using a syntax (e.g., the ``#<'' syntax) that would not be readable by the same implementation."
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2021-01-14T08:58:33Z xificurC: yesterday someone pointed out I can define a package local nickname for a package, where can I do that? I don't see this option in the defpackage clhs page
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2021-01-14T09:01:38Z xificurC: found this https://gist.github.com/phoe/2b63f33a2a4727a437403eceb7a6b4a3
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2021-01-14T09:06:18Z xificurC: I'm really glad this is getting implemented, it's a huge boon in the lisp that doesn't like to get discussed here (or even be called a lisp)
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2021-01-14T09:11:17Z beach: xificurC: What does "the lisp that doesn't like to get discussed here" mean?
2021-01-14T09:11:37Z xificurC: beach: clojure
2021-01-14T09:12:53Z flip214: well, the topic says "Common Lisp"
2021-01-14T09:13:00Z beach: xificurC: There is widespread agreement, even among the commercial Common Lisp vendors to implement package-local nicknames.  But how does the implementation of package-local nicknames for Common Lisp benefit "other lisp"?
2021-01-14T09:13:26Z mfiano: PLN has been a thing for 9 years now
2021-01-14T09:13:41Z mfiano: Sorry 10
2021-01-14T09:15:40Z xificurC: I'm saying I've been using local nicknames (aliases) in clojure and am happy I can use them in CL now as well
2021-01-14T09:16:11Z xificurC: I mentioned it because I thought it might have been an inspiration to finally implement it
2021-01-14T09:18:42Z xificurC: the last thing I'd like is for `(i:iter (for i from 1 to 10) (collect i))` work. But the reader screws me over, even though `iter` could resolve `for` and `collect` during macroexpansion
2021-01-14T09:19:54Z beach: You need to complain to the person who wrote the ITER library.
2021-01-14T09:20:27Z beach: Or, you can use LOOP instead, which is standard.
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2021-01-14T09:22:20Z xificurC: beach: you mean it would be possible to do that? I thought it's not possible
2021-01-14T09:22:32Z beach: To do what?
2021-01-14T09:23:02Z xificurC: that example, `(i:iter (for i from 1 to 10) (collect i))`, to work
2021-01-14T09:23:11Z mfiano: Not only possible but less code and more readable by others
2021-01-14T09:23:19Z mfiano: (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect i)
2021-01-14T09:23:36Z beach: LOOP can do it, so I don't see why ITER could not.  But it would likely require a radical restructuring of the code.
2021-01-14T09:24:20Z xificurC: loop is a builtin, so it could have the privilege to do that while others can't
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2021-01-14T09:24:49Z beach: xificurC: It is a simple matter of using the names of the symbols involved instead of the symbols themselves.
2021-01-14T09:25:00Z flip214: xificurC: how about i::(iter (for i from i to 10) (collect i))? but then the symbol "i" would be in the iter package...
2021-01-14T09:25:14Z beach: xificurC: But I am guessing that FOR is a local macro introduced by ITER, and that would have to change.
2021-01-14T09:25:19Z xificurC: I remember iter being praised, now I see it being, ehm, not praised
2021-01-14T09:25:31Z mfiano: A lot of people shy away from trying to understand codebases using ITER
2021-01-14T09:25:45Z mfiano: flip214: That's not standard
2021-01-14T09:26:24Z beach: xificurC: It is possible that ITER can do some things that LOOP can not, but the fact that ITER is not standard is an argument against it, especially since LOOP can handle most situations.
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2021-01-14T09:27:03Z beach: xificurC: The argument that people use in favor of ITER and against LOOP is often that "LOOP is not Lisp-y", which is silly of course, since it is part of the standard.
2021-01-14T09:27:13Z xificurC: mfiano why shy away? I don't find it much harder to read or understand than loop. Are there some inherent flaws in its implementation?
2021-01-14T09:28:36Z xificurC: beach I thought the main argument is that an external package can extend iter, e.g. a database library exposing a cursor can plug it into it
2021-01-14T09:28:47Z beach: xificurC: An external library that may or may not be maintained in the future, and that does little more than a standard facility should be given some thought before being used.
2021-01-14T09:28:52Z heisig: xificurC: It is a question of the amount of 'vocabulary' that I need to know to read your code.  LOOP is (for good or for bad) part of the vocabulary we all know.  ITER isn't.
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2021-01-14T09:29:12Z mfiano: It's not standard Lisp which everyone is familiar with, it can have its forms broken up and spread out, it is often used like it is standard with use-package.
2021-01-14T09:29:23Z beach: xificurC: I don't see any extension being used by your code there.
2021-01-14T09:30:20Z flip214: heisig: but the same argument applies to lparallel, cl-who, alexandria, and so on and on.
2021-01-14T09:30:50Z beach: flip214: There is no standard facility corresponding to those.
2021-01-14T09:30:53Z beach: So that's different.
2021-01-14T09:31:12Z xificurC: beach I was showing the simplest example, not a real one. At this point in time I'm not using anything that loop doesn't handle, so it's easy to switch back
2021-01-14T09:31:26Z heisig: flip214: It is a difference whether you introduce functions or macros.  And even with macros, there is a difference between introducing an obvious WITH-* macro, or an entirely new control-flow construct.
2021-01-14T09:31:38Z beach: xificurC: So in that case, use LOOP for everything that does not require an extension.
2021-01-14T09:32:32Z mfiano: In 15 years I have not needed LOOP to do anything else. One has to be careful about shiny things, features you think you might need, or think they  will benefit you, but in turn do more harm than good.
2021-01-14T09:32:32Z xificurC: this is the lisp schizofrenia I never understood - an infinitely extensible language that nobody wants to extend
2021-01-14T09:32:47Z flip214: beach: I don't think that's a good argument. If something is being used often, it becomes mainstream - and then you'll see it so often that you'll just know it.
2021-01-14T09:33:04Z beach: I totally agree with mfiano.
2021-01-14T09:33:13Z flip214: so your argument sounds to me like "something must be used everywhere to be used everywhere", which is loopy ;)
2021-01-14T09:33:40Z beach: xificurC: It is extended most often on a per-application basis.  That's the beauty of it.
2021-01-14T09:33:40Z xificurC: that was a reaction to "It is a question of the amount of 'vocabulary' that I need to know to read your code"
2021-01-14T09:34:09Z flip214: heisig: so a CPS transform is bad, as it produces new control-flow semantics?
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2021-01-14T09:35:27Z beach: xificurC: Applications introduce new vocabulary in the form of functions, macros, classes, etc.  That vocabulary becomes specific to the application and its domain.
2021-01-14T09:35:43Z xificurC: beach why deprive libraries of that extensibility?
2021-01-14T09:35:44Z beach: xificurC: That kind of extension is common and perfectly acceptable.
2021-01-14T09:36:09Z beach: xificurC: I have no intention of depriving anyone of anything.
2021-01-14T09:36:13Z heisig: xificurC: Extending Lisp is just something that shouldn't be done lightly.  If you are working with music, this is a good reason to introduce custom notation.  But 'I don't like LOOP' is not a very good reason for introducing custom notation.
2021-01-14T09:37:10Z flip214: heisig: but the big reason for ITER is that it's notation is more Lisp-like!
2021-01-14T09:37:42Z beach: "The argument that people use in favor of ITER and against LOOP is often that "LOOP is not Lisp-y", which is silly of course, since it is part of the standard."
2021-01-14T09:37:53Z mfiano: The flexibility of Lisp allows you to use iterate or extend the language with new syntax of your own. This is why Lisp suffers from NIH, being so flexible and thus designed for small teams, makes it often more desirable and easier to re-implement a piece of software yourself, than to try to understand someone else's code. After all, code is just a projection of your mind, and trying to understand
2021-01-14T09:37:55Z mfiano: someone else's moulding of the language for a particular domain usually doesn't map too well.
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2021-01-14T09:43:11Z xificurC: mfiano "In 15 years I have not needed LOOP to do anything else" - I find this thinking backwards. LOOP was chosen and implemented by a committee. That committee could have accepted SERIES just as well. Or it could have accepted none of them and we would be writing mapcars and the like. In that world if a user comes asking about LOOP, which is now a
2021-01-14T09:43:11Z xificurC: library, would the argument be "In 15 years I have not needed LOOP because mapcar and friends can do everything LOOP can"?
2021-01-14T09:43:56Z mfiano: xificurC: If we had series for decades of widespread use I would have "thought forward"
2021-01-14T09:44:24Z xificurC: what does that mean?
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2021-01-14T09:47:05Z xificurC: I only picked up 2 dependencies so far. I see iterate is not, ehm, famous around here :)  The second is trivia. Is trivia OK?
2021-01-14T09:47:20Z heisig: xificurC: I think I know how you feel about LOOP.  It is not that I haven't used ITER myself because it is more powerful and flexible.  But here I am, back to using LOOP.  And why is that?  Because having a powerful iteration construct is really not that important.
2021-01-14T09:47:27Z heisig: Readable code is much more important.
2021-01-14T09:48:05Z heisig: I think Trivia is OK though, but I don't know how others think about that.
2021-01-14T09:48:07Z mfiano: When I first began using Lisp I too used iterate for a short while, but I couldn't agree more with heisig.
2021-01-14T09:48:12Z flip214: heisig: and ITER isn't as readable as LOOP? Which difference (apart from the parens) do you see, in typical use?
2021-01-14T09:48:16Z xificurC: heisig so you're saying in the years you programmed you find LOOP more readable than ITER, is that correct?
2021-01-14T09:49:17Z flip214: another feature of ITER is that the clauses like COLLECT can be used in subforms as well - LOOP requires them at the loop-level, which is awful sometimes
2021-01-14T09:49:36Z heisig: xificurC: 100% of the Lisp programmers know about LOOP, but only at most 60% (at most) know about ITER.  That settles it for me.
2021-01-14T09:50:33Z mfiano: LOOP only cares about the symbol name for LOOP keywords. Iterate requires you to modify symbol property lists for synonyms.
2021-01-14T09:50:43Z mfiano: Which even contradicts its own documentation in this regard.
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2021-01-14T09:52:00Z xificurC: I'll be getting rid of iterate then, at least for now.
2021-01-14T09:52:07Z xificurC: thanks for the discussion
2021-01-14T09:52:20Z xificurC: mfiano it requires modification of what?
2021-01-14T09:53:43Z flip214: heisig: 10% of programmers know Java, but only 1% of programmers know Lisp. How is that an argument against Lisp?  (numbers invented)
2021-01-14T09:54:24Z flip214: I just know that people have to learn new things all the time...
2021-01-14T09:54:41Z beach: flip214: Java does not have Common Lisp (with a different syntax) already built in.
2021-01-14T09:54:46Z mfiano: xificurC: symbol-plists of iterates symbols
2021-01-14T09:55:10Z flip214: of course, there's no reason to invent new code-flow macros all the time - but a nearly 1:1 translation of a construct defined in the standard is on the safe side, me thinks.
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2021-01-14T10:01:15Z heisig: flip214: I think the benefits of using Lisp over Java are greater than those of using ITER over LOOP.  But even then I occasionally choose Java or Python over Lisp for some projects, because it is more accessible for the target audience.  (Not often though, and not gladly)
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2021-01-14T14:08:20Z dim: I didn't follow closely and am wondering if ABCL is relevant to this Java/Common-Lisp discussion
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2021-01-14T14:16:04Z heisig: dim: No, I don't think so.  But ABCL is a great thing to have.
2021-01-14T14:16:54Z xificurC: can someone enlighten me how to correctly generate unhygienic code here? http://ix.io/2M0v . `aif` is just an example
2021-01-14T14:17:07Z heisig: We recently had a project where we needed a computer algebra system in Scala.  Our solution was to load ABCL into the same image, and to use ABCL to load Maxima.
2021-01-14T14:17:42Z xificurC: heisig nice solution
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2021-01-14T14:19:21Z heisig: xificurC: Your code is unhygenic, but you are in the wrong package.  You pollute c::it, but write a cl-user::it.
2021-01-14T14:20:33Z xificurC: heisig being unhygienic is the point in this case :)  The fragment generates `C::IT` but I want to generate `IT` for whatever package is using the macro. Does that make sense?
2021-01-14T14:21:00Z beach: xificurC: Symbol names are handled at read time.  At macro-expansion time it's too late.
2021-01-14T14:21:17Z Xach: LOOP handles it by comparing symbol-names.
2021-01-14T14:21:25Z heisig: xificurC: Be careful what you wish for :)  I would suggest having the package C export IT, and to have other packages import it.
2021-01-14T14:21:45Z heisig: But if you really want to capture all kinds of IT, you need a substituting code walker.
2021-01-14T14:22:19Z xificurC: I don't remember Paul Graham talking about this stuff in On Lisp. Was he just avoiding this whole topic by not using any packages?
2021-01-14T14:22:23Z flip214: xificurC: get the symbol passed in
2021-01-14T14:22:29Z beach: xificurC: Also AIF is really strange, since it handles general values as if they were Booleans.  You are much better off without it.
2021-01-14T14:22:49Z Xach: xificurC: paul graham did not document all the features of common lisp. packages are not discussed in detail.
2021-01-14T14:23:32Z heisig: xificurC: If you really want to try this, use a code walker like https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mraskin/agnostic-lizard and have AIF replace all symbols named IT with C::IT.
2021-01-14T14:23:37Z heisig: (Please don't)
2021-01-14T14:24:05Z xificurC: so let me rephrase to see if I understood this: to use unhygienic macros across packages one would need to use a code walker
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2021-01-14T14:25:33Z beach: xificurC: In fact, most of the anaphoric macros are weird and should probably be avoided altogether.
2021-01-14T14:26:30Z beach: It's a cute exercise in how the macro system can be used, but not particularly useful, and not particularly conform with other software-engineering practices.
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2021-01-14T14:28:14Z heisig: xificurC: Here is one more solution:  Your AIF macro could intern the name "IT" into the value of *package* that is used at macroexpansion time.  But that would also violate some assumptions that readers of your code might have.
2021-01-14T14:28:50Z heisig: Usually it is a good idea to listen to beach's advice.
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2021-01-14T14:34:47Z xificurC: as I said `aif` wasn't the particular example. This one was http://ix.io/2M0x . It's similar to what is in LOL but closer to a clojure-like anonymous function definition. I find the shortcut useful and code written with it clearer. However it doesn't work across package boundaries, just like any unhygienic code doesn't seem to
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2021-01-14T14:37:32Z xificurC: looking into the LOL codebase I see the same issues, the unhygienic symbols `a1` `a2` etc don't solve this issue. I wonder why are these books given such high praise then, when you take some code from it and use it in a standard way, failing immediately
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2021-01-14T14:40:12Z beach: xificurC: On Lisp is good for things like computations done at macro-expansion time, but not for anaphoric macros.
2021-01-14T14:40:38Z xificurC: beach and your thoughts on LOL?
2021-01-14T14:40:50Z beach: I haven't read it.  Sorry.
2021-01-14T14:41:09Z mfiano: LOL should be taken with a large grain of salt
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2021-01-14T14:46:07Z shka_: wow, clouseu displays rehash threshold as a progress bar
2021-01-14T14:46:11Z shka_: how neat!
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2021-01-14T14:48:30Z beach: Clouseau is a very nice program.
2021-01-14T14:48:58Z shka_: and i never can type the name properly
2021-01-14T14:49:05Z shka_: but yes, it is
2021-01-14T14:50:24Z beach: I never use the SLIME inspector anymore.
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2021-01-14T14:51:41Z xificurC: mfiano the book went really hardcore into some custom closure-based OO design and I didn't really understand why would one want to do that instead of using CLOS. The macros were interesting and the sorting networks too
2021-01-14T14:51:44Z scymtym: shka_: inspect a complex number :)
2021-01-14T14:52:15Z beach: xificurC: One absolutely wouldn't want to do that.
2021-01-14T14:52:35Z beach: ... closure-based OO design that is.
2021-01-14T14:53:07Z _death: xificurC: I would advise not using such macros in CL.. but in your particular, the issue likely stems from interning symbols in the current package where the reader macro is expanded (which is likely what you want) but the expansion refers to symbol (% %1) interned when the reader macro is defined.. so you should use the ones you interned instead
2021-01-14T14:53:13Z shka_: scymtym: cool
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2021-01-14T14:54:12Z shka_: xificurC: anaphoric macros have the use case, really
2021-01-14T14:54:26Z beach: shka_: Nah! :)
2021-01-14T14:54:36Z shka_: they do!
2021-01-14T14:54:43Z shka_: just don't reinvent the wheel
2021-01-14T14:55:12Z frodef: maybe for very application-specific things, where words have very particular meanings.
2021-01-14T14:55:37Z shka_: cl-ds:xpr is an anaphoric macro
2021-01-14T14:55:45Z shka_: it is quite useful
2021-01-14T14:56:03Z shka_: it is used to define lazy sequences
2021-01-14T14:57:00Z shka_: works by writing recursive-like code
2021-01-14T14:57:39Z heisig sees Clouseau's representation of complex numbers and goes on to rebind `C-c i'.
2021-01-14T14:57:55Z shka_: heisig: HOW DO I DO THAT?
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2021-01-14T14:58:02Z shka_: i don't know emacs very well
2021-01-14T14:58:17Z xificurC: I guess the number of APL fans here is very close to 0. Anything that allows expressing yourself more concisely is worth consideration
2021-01-14T14:58:17Z shka_: but i wanted to do it for a few weeks now :P
2021-01-14T14:58:37Z xificurC: you just have to be careful not to reinvent perl
2021-01-14T14:58:45Z shka_: xificurC: not exactly zero
2021-01-14T14:59:16Z xificurC: shka_ I said close to 0. I see at least 1 familiar name in the channel
2021-01-14T14:59:46Z shka_: but lisp macros need to be done really well in order to be so useful
2021-01-14T14:59:52Z shka_: like, in the general case
2021-01-14T15:01:28Z shka_: and writing macros ad hock leads to macros that are used just once
2021-01-14T15:01:32Z shka_: and this is bad
2021-01-14T15:02:58Z xificurC: shka_  good or bad is subjective to your use case
2021-01-14T15:03:13Z mfiano: It's mostly a book about "Hey, look at what macros can do", but the very opinionated coding style that ignores conventions and the use of anaphors make it very rare you will ever see code like this in the real world.
2021-01-14T15:03:28Z mfiano: Common Lisp code, that is.
2021-01-14T15:07:16Z xificurC: like this? https://github.com/thephoeron/let-over-lambda/blob/master/let-over-lambda.lisp :)
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2021-01-14T15:11:54Z aeth: xificurC: Lexical closures are the only true way of doing encapsulation that's not just by convention (I say this, but now someone might think of something more obscure). Lexical scope is so encapsulated that lexical variables might not actually exist for things like debuggers without (optimize (debug 3))
2021-01-14T15:12:12Z shka_: gosh, i guess heisig won't tell me
2021-01-14T15:12:16Z aeth: xificurC: So you could probably come up with a very niche situation where you need to do that. Very niche.
2021-01-14T15:12:43Z Xach: shka_: macrolet is its own thing
2021-01-14T15:13:20Z shka_: Xach: ?
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2021-01-14T15:13:51Z Xach: shka_: ad hoc, single-use-ish macros with macrolet can be fun
2021-01-14T15:15:18Z shka_: oh, ok
2021-01-14T15:15:24Z shka_: agreed
2021-01-14T15:15:52Z xificurC: aeth I actually loathe enforced encapsulation that cannot be broken. In the few years I work on the JVM there have been several bugs in 3rd party libraries that I was close to unable to overcome because of it. I think we're all adults and know the risk of using internal, subject-to-change parts of a library.
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2021-01-14T15:20:50Z heisig: shka_: I am still experimenting.  I will post my solution here as soon as it is presentable.
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2021-01-14T15:24:42Z shka_: heisig: thanks!
2021-01-14T15:28:08Z scymtym: heisig: one piece of the puzzle will probably involve updating the content of a persistent inspector window. one way to do that is (defvar *inspector* (nth-value 1 (clouseau:inspect INITIAL-VALUE :new-process t))) and later (setf (clouseau:root-object *inspector* :run-hook-p t) NEW-VALUE)
2021-01-14T15:29:41Z shka_: hmmm, it seems that the minimal size of sbcl hash-table is 7?
2021-01-14T15:29:58Z shka_: this gonna cost me some memory
2021-01-14T15:30:05Z shka_: maybe i can figure something out
2021-01-14T15:30:55Z flip214: shka_: make yourself a global readonly empty hashtable?
2021-01-14T15:32:25Z shka_: flip214: nah, i have other idea
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2021-01-14T16:17:09Z heisig: shka_: Here is my first draft: https://gist.github.com/marcoheisig/ddf35ad94e51fe9c3e5980759ef0fb70
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2021-01-14T16:17:38Z heisig: scymtym: Thanks for helping!  That was exactly what I needed.
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2021-01-14T16:19:07Z scymtym: heisig: sure. you could use a prefix argument to force inspecting in a new window
2021-01-14T16:21:43Z shka_: awesome
2021-01-14T16:22:04Z shka_: let me try this out
2021-01-14T16:22:22Z heisig: scymtym: Yes, there are plenty of potential tweaks.  Also, I should overload more than just `C-c i'.  But that was already enough of a digression for one day.
2021-01-14T16:22:35Z _death: slime has a slime-prefix-map
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2021-01-14T16:24:51Z heisig: Also, I am not exactly proud of referencing a symbol from clim-internals.  Is there a better way to check whether a frame is still alive?
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2021-01-14T16:51:57Z scymtym: heisig: maybe http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-5.html#_1560 ? the states are defined at the top of the page
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2021-01-14T17:11:22Z adlai: Oh boy, here I go bearing bad news again! ... if anyone both industrious and stupid wants to volunteer to maintain yet another library slipping towards gitrot, it appears that Anaphora has been soft-abandoned.
2021-01-14T17:12:00Z adlai: [ as hinted by the maintainer, at https://github.com/tokenrove/anaphora/pull/10#issuecomment-757917329 ]
2021-01-14T17:13:41Z adlai has anaphoric macros all over scalpl, even occasionally wrote a few of his own, although already has the volunteer hands more than full with wondering wtf to do about chanl's brokenness, an issue that blocks returning scalpl to official inclusion in various automated distributions.
2021-01-14T17:16:37Z adlai: while we're on bad news of abandonment: Henry Baker's paper archive has gone offline, apparently along with the entire webserver that hosted it. Wikipedia is already linking to https://web.archive.org/web/20200212080133/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ although I do wonder whether anyone has available an archive of just the signal, to save others the trouble of sifting through HTML noise.
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