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2020-12-01T04:03:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-01T04:05:01Z lotuseater: good morning beach :)
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2020-12-01T04:09:08Z lotuseater: omg now i got it ...
2020-12-01T04:09:34Z lotuseater: beach: You are Robert Strandh, right? o_O
2020-12-01T04:11:29Z beach: Yes.
2020-12-01T04:11:32Z beach: Why?
2020-12-01T04:12:21Z beach: Oh, you mean the translation of my name?
2020-12-01T04:12:26Z lotuseater: just so.
2020-12-01T04:12:35Z beach: In the past, I also used spiaggia, plage, and Ufer.
2020-12-01T04:13:19Z lotuseater: yes i got it now. there is much stuff around CL from you i already enjoyed
2020-12-01T04:13:23Z drmeister: beach: I'm using the call-history for dispatching as clasp boots up - it works pretty well.   It's faster than the cache and mutex that I stole from ECL.
2020-12-01T04:13:37Z beach: lotuseater: Great!  Glad you like it.
2020-12-01T04:13:51Z beach: drmeister: Excellent!
2020-12-01T04:14:10Z lotuseater: here are some very heavy experts ._.
2020-12-01T04:14:40Z drmeister: I didn't think an alist would be fast enough - but it was.  So an alist updated with CAS is faster than a fancy cache with a mutex.
2020-12-01T04:15:10Z beach: Maybe not that surprising.  Most call histories are probably short.
2020-12-01T04:15:41Z drmeister: Yeah - most are.
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2020-12-01T06:49:43Z sm2n: dealing with a bunch of hash tables has broken me on LOOP, I shall now ITERATE
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2020-12-01T07:23:08Z phoe: good morning
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2020-12-01T07:24:28Z ck_: Hello phoe. How did the Webassembly presentation go yesterday?
2020-12-01T07:24:31Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe.
2020-12-01T07:24:47Z phoe: hey! seems that it went well
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2020-12-01T07:32:52Z ck_: very good then, looking forward to weblisp
2020-12-01T07:33:18Z phoe: not any soon; still lots of work to be done
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2020-12-01T10:49:23Z loke[m]: Hello phoe.
2020-12-01T10:49:39Z loke[m]: When do you usually do the lisp presentations?
2020-12-01T10:49:50Z phoe: loke[m]: 13:00 CET
2020-12-01T10:50:06Z loke[m]: phoe: but what day?
2020-12-01T10:50:08Z phoe: might move it later or earlier though, depending on preferences
2020-12-01T10:50:12Z phoe: loke[m]: no real set date
2020-12-01T10:50:23Z phoe: like, the day varies
2020-12-01T10:51:13Z loke[m]: I see. But if there's no deadline it'll take a very long time to prepare a presentation :-)
2020-12-01T10:51:19Z phoe: well
2020-12-01T10:51:37Z phoe: if we want to keep up with the meeting-every-three-weeks schedule
2020-12-01T10:51:53Z phoe: then I'd like to organize the next one between 14th and 18th Dec
2020-12-01T10:52:39Z phoe: and I'll need the abstract for sending via mail at least a week before the meeting, and the video at least 24h before streaming
2020-12-01T10:52:50Z phoe: is this deadline enough for you?
2020-12-01T10:58:07Z loke[m]: Oh you don't want it live?
2020-12-01T10:58:41Z beach: The live chat is text only.
2020-12-01T10:58:48Z beach: The presentation is pre-recorded.
2020-12-01T10:58:50Z phoe: not really; I'd like it prerecorded and played back, with live chat in the comments
2020-12-01T10:59:01Z phoe: that's the way that the ELS worked this year, and I've copied this way to the online meetings
2020-12-01T10:59:26Z phoe: because I've noticed that it works pretty well and eliminates many possibilities of technical issues
2020-12-01T11:02:34Z adlai shuffles through the deck of notecards labelled "Things to ask #lisp"
2020-12-01T11:03:36Z jackdaniel shuffles through the deck of notecards labelled "You can't do that because" ;)
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2020-12-01T11:03:46Z adlai: the latest pain point with scalpl has been the state of websocket client libraries. Eitaro's library works, although it appears to be the only one.
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2020-12-01T11:04:26Z jackdaniel: hunchensocket worked for me like a charm
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2020-12-01T11:04:38Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/joaotavora/hunchensocket
2020-12-01T11:04:39Z no-defun-allowed: lonjil and I have both wanted to create another websocket client, I guess with the three of us complaining it should be done.
2020-12-01T11:04:40Z adlai: does that also have a client-side library?
2020-12-01T11:04:51Z no-defun-allowed: jackdaniel: Note "client".
2020-12-01T11:05:16Z jackdaniel: right, nvm me then. I think that I've used fukamachiware for that too
2020-12-01T11:05:23Z no-defun-allowed: For pun value, it could wrap Drakma somehow.
2020-12-01T11:05:55Z adlai: there's also a partial client implementation that 3b published, although I don't think he made any claims about its usability; just, "here's how far I got, maybe someone else will find the leftovers useful"
2020-12-01T11:06:05Z no-defun-allowed: I used to also have a prototype of that. I'll check tomorrow morning if it's still there, but it wouldn't be so useful.
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2020-12-01T11:07:34Z adlai: the actual problem, for which a websocket client is necessary, is synchronization of exchange order books; I'm unaware of any datastructure library that offers structures specifically for storing such data, although perhaps there's a gaping hole in my so-called education.
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2020-12-01T11:08:44Z adlai has been using a regular cl hash table, keyed on prices, which is good enough for sleepy markets; will almost certainly be a bottleneck for the busier markets.
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2020-12-01T11:09:29Z no-defun-allowed: But, to be fair, I can't think of any changes I would make to the design of websocket-driver.
2020-12-01T11:10:39Z no-defun-allowed: adlai: My own concurrent-hash-tables could push back the limits somewhat, but I don't know your usecase well enough to say if it would be a bottleneck.
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2020-12-01T11:11:11Z no-defun-allowed: Well, if you want a faster hash table, but perhaps there's another data structure that fits your queries better.
2020-12-01T11:11:56Z no-defun-allowed: And if you need concurrent access. I saw "synchronisation" and got excited - perhaps you don't need it at all.
2020-12-01T11:13:24Z adlai: concurrent access is almost a hard requirement, in the long term, because market participants should be considering the arbitrage opportunities between multiple trading locations; in the short term, I have specifically limited myself to first operating only within one centralized market at a time, so it is not a requirement yet.
2020-12-01T11:14:31Z adlai is terribly ambitious; the hoped time for scalpl to return to ql:quickload levels of usability is a decade, and the expected - probably closer to three.
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2020-12-01T11:20:32Z ldb: hello
2020-12-01T11:20:38Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldb.
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2020-12-01T11:27:06Z ldb: i see there's a cl-automaton inside Drei
2020-12-01T11:27:15Z adlai: is the operator of irclog.tymoon.eu here?
2020-12-01T11:27:31Z ldb: could that be used for spell checking?
2020-12-01T11:27:46Z adlai does not want to raise unexpected eyebrows in their log's logs
2020-12-01T11:29:57Z ldb: not curretly online
2020-12-01T11:30:18Z adlai: it seems that the nicest way to heat the universe with flailful searches through #lisp's history is by locally combing through a copy of whitequark's db.
2020-12-01T11:31:11Z adlai is avoiding self-repetition, due to repeated failures at this in the past.
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2020-12-01T12:08:02Z d4ryus: adlai: You can ask Shinmera in #shirakumo about irclog.tymoon.eu.
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2020-12-01T13:51:36Z flip214: has someone cl-yaml working in windows? for me the self-tests crash already (with sbcl 2.0.11)
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2020-12-01T13:52:58Z phoe: crash? how?
2020-12-01T13:53:06Z phoe: why would they only crash on windows?
2020-12-01T13:53:07Z Gnuxie[m]: It uses libyaml so it's likely to be delicate
2020-12-01T13:53:32Z phoe: oh, it's a foreign binding
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2020-12-01T13:54:57Z Josh_2: afternoon
2020-12-01T13:55:20Z phoe: hey hi
2020-12-01T13:55:57Z flip214: I'm taking a look at cl-libyaml
2020-12-01T14:00:56Z flip214: same crash
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2020-12-01T14:01:47Z flip214: cl-yaclyaml seems to be made in CL
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2020-12-01T14:11:03Z flip214: great, that one works out of the box
2020-12-01T14:11:53Z phoe: hah
2020-12-01T14:11:59Z phoe: flip214: what are the FFI crashes?
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2020-12-01T14:19:17Z flip214: phoe: when loading a 1200 byte file it says "invalid octet at 420000000" or something to that effect
2020-12-01T14:22:36Z phoe: flip214: in foreign code?
2020-12-01T14:23:28Z flip214: yeah
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2020-12-01T14:24:08Z jmercouris: why is it called labels and not flet*?
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2020-12-01T14:27:09Z beach: For hysterical raisins.
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2020-12-01T14:28:43Z phoe: jmercouris: the original LISP had a thing called LABEL that was basically a named local function
2020-12-01T14:29:01Z jmercouris: I see, and why did it become flet instead of label?
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2020-12-01T14:29:15Z phoe: flet and label have slightly different semantics
2020-12-01T14:29:22Z jmercouris: you can still use label?
2020-12-01T14:29:25Z phoe: labels were able to refer to one another; flet is just let except in the function namespace
2020-12-01T14:29:30Z phoe: well, no, LABEL is not a part of CL
2020-12-01T14:29:38Z jmercouris: so then, they could have changed the meaning
2020-12-01T14:29:49Z jmercouris: oh well, I guess
2020-12-01T14:29:59Z phoe: yes
2020-12-01T14:30:01Z phoe: they could have
2020-12-01T14:30:01Z jmercouris: maybe I will put a macro for flet* that expands to labels
2020-12-01T14:30:06Z phoe: and chose not to, likely for backwards compatibility
2020-12-01T14:30:19Z phoe: also flet* is not necessarily strictly equal to labels
2020-12-01T14:30:19Z jmercouris: or maybe just a reader macro
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2020-12-01T14:30:24Z jmercouris: in my head it is
2020-12-01T14:30:28Z jackdaniel: flet* would be misleading
2020-12-01T14:30:29Z phoe: an earlier label can refer to a latter label
2020-12-01T14:30:34Z jackdaniel: if expands to labels
2020-12-01T14:30:42Z phoe: an earlier let* binding cannot refer to a latter binding
2020-12-01T14:30:47Z jmercouris: yes, I see the difference
2020-12-01T14:30:50Z pfdietz: I would like generic-flet.  But that was removed.
2020-12-01T14:30:53Z jmercouris: then maybe I will make a let-labels
2020-12-01T14:31:01Z jmercouris: where every let can refer to every let
2020-12-01T14:31:03Z jackdaniel: pfdietz: generic-let?
2020-12-01T14:31:06Z Bike: what would you use generic-flet for?
2020-12-01T14:31:15Z Bike: jmercouris: usually called "letrec"
2020-12-01T14:31:16Z jackdaniel: s/let/flet/
2020-12-01T14:31:19Z pfdietz: Pattern matching on trees.
2020-12-01T14:31:34Z jmercouris: Bike: then I will make a fletrec
2020-12-01T14:31:39Z jmercouris: which will expand to labels
2020-12-01T14:31:47Z jackdaniel: why can't use use labels?
2020-12-01T14:31:55Z jmercouris: of course I can, the name is just tilting me
2020-12-01T14:32:13Z pfdietz: I want to expand sets of patterns to methods, but I can't do that in a flet-like way.
2020-12-01T14:32:16Z jackdaniel: every person who looks at your code will wonder what is fletrec and why it was introduced
2020-12-01T14:32:41Z jmercouris: maybe you are right
2020-12-01T14:32:42Z jackdaniel: and the explanation "I don't like the standard operator name" isn't a very convincing argument
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2020-12-01T14:34:28Z flip214: grrr, why does cl-yaclyaml now fail on the same file it worked with 5 minutes ago?
2020-12-01T14:34:40Z jmercouris: the cosmic bits have flipped
2020-12-01T14:34:52Z Nilby: I think most these decisions were argued to death in the 10 or so years of the CL committee, balancing for compatibility and aesthetics. I think one can still read the the old mailing list and the committee notes.
2020-12-01T14:35:25Z jmercouris: I am sure they made the best decision
2020-12-01T14:35:34Z jmercouris: just not necessarily the one I like :-D
2020-12-01T14:35:54Z jmercouris: I also dont have all of the information they had when making their decisions
2020-12-01T14:36:12Z Nilby: There was a lot of diverse prior art.
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2020-12-01T14:39:26Z Nilby: cdr is a crazy name, but in some way cddar etc are magicly terse tree traversal.
2020-12-01T14:39:43Z jmercouris: yeah another one I don't agree with, but can accept
2020-12-01T14:39:48Z jmercouris: they are new concepts, and thus need new names
2020-12-01T14:39:58Z jmercouris: I can't think of better names than car and cdr and cons
2020-12-01T14:40:16Z jmercouris: they are short, unique, and easy to chain
2020-12-01T14:40:21Z jmercouris: however, do I agree with cadddr?
2020-12-01T14:40:25Z jmercouris: ... that is another story
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2020-12-01T14:42:20Z jackdaniel: a blog post material certainly ,)
2020-12-01T14:42:45Z jmercouris: are you making a comment about planetlisp?
2020-12-01T14:43:00Z flip214: linux binary works with the same contents
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2020-12-01T14:44:11Z jackdaniel: no, I'm just making a joke regarding "impact" of the discussion whether you like caddddr or not (n.b, using such operations is discouraged in norvig's style guide, and in numerous other places)
2020-12-01T14:44:29Z jmercouris: I see, I agree
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2020-12-01T14:47:10Z jmercouris: (loop for element in (list 1 2 3) collect element finally (print "salmon"))
2020-12-01T14:47:20Z jmercouris: now, can I "finally" collect another thing?
2020-12-01T14:47:26Z jmercouris: (loop for element in (list 1 2 3) collect element finally collect "fish"))
2020-12-01T14:47:30Z jmercouris: doesn't seem possible
2020-12-01T14:47:37Z jmercouris: I want the output to be (1 2 3 "fish")
2020-12-01T14:47:45Z jmercouris: I can of course append to the loop
2020-12-01T14:48:04Z jmercouris: (append (loop for element in (list 1 2 3) collect element) (list "salmon"))
2020-12-01T14:48:06Z jmercouris: or push even
2020-12-01T14:48:22Z jmercouris: if I were to bind it
2020-12-01T14:48:38Z jmercouris: however is there a way to accomplish this within the loop?
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2020-12-01T14:50:47Z jackdaniel: superficially via collect ... into .. and having append in the finally clause
2020-12-01T14:51:09Z jmercouris: hm
2020-12-01T14:51:10Z jackdaniel: however it doesn't buy you much because you need to traverse the list (instead of modifying the last cons)
2020-12-01T14:51:19Z jackdaniel: (indirectly via append)
2020-12-01T14:51:24Z jmercouris: right
2020-12-01T14:51:50Z jackdaniel: with the cmu's collect macro you have the collecting decoupled from loop, so you may collect "anywhere", but that's another story
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2020-12-01T14:53:08Z jackdaniel: (there are multiple derivatives and copycats of this macro in quicklisp, i.e in the cl-collectors library - I think that this was its name)
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2020-12-01T14:53:24Z jackdaniel: uiop:while-collecting has a bug, but I don't remember what it was exactly
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2020-12-01T14:53:55Z jackdaniel: either something with scoping or with multiple collections not working as expected, so I'd rather discourage from using it
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2020-12-01T14:54:40Z jmercouris: OK
2020-12-01T14:54:43Z jmercouris: I will stick with append
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2020-12-01T14:58:10Z Nilby: I don't know what optimizations loop does, but isn't it better just to push and nreverse at some point?
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2020-12-01T14:59:14Z phoe: AFAIK it does that
2020-12-01T14:59:19Z jackdaniel: Nilby: you may always store the last cons
2020-12-01T14:59:29Z jackdaniel: and rplacd with (cons new-element nil)
2020-12-01T15:00:14Z pfdietz: The rplacd approach uses a dummy head cons cell, but that can be stack allocated w. dynamic-extent.
2020-12-01T15:00:36Z splittist: What is the good way to look for (quicklisped) lisp libraries post-Quickdocs?
2020-12-01T15:00:48Z phoe: splittist: quickref
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2020-12-01T15:02:57Z splittist: phoe: thanks. How do I use that to look for, e.g., command line processing libraries?
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2020-12-01T15:04:55Z Bike: pfdietz: the thing with generic-flet is that defining and undefining methods later is less relevant, and that's a lot of the appeal of clos. if your set of methods is static, can't you just use typecase?
2020-12-01T15:05:59Z phoe: splittist: I have no idea, actually. how would you do that with quickdocs? AFAIK it only gave you autogenerated documentation
2020-12-01T15:06:22Z phoe: I assume that you could search for: "quickref.common-lisp.net" command line
2020-12-01T15:06:25Z phoe: I get some decent hits that way
2020-12-01T15:09:29Z splittist: phoe: thanks. (I have you in my headphones talking about control flow, too. Strange feeling.)
2020-12-01T15:10:43Z phoe: splittist: now there is two of me
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2020-12-01T15:21:53Z Nilby: splittist: I got results of (apply-argv cl-cli cli-parser net.didierverna.clon.core command-line-arguments configuration.options-source-commandline hu.dwim.util/command-line com.google.flag ufo unix-options unix-opts utility-arguments) from an older quicklisp dist.
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2020-12-01T15:26:54Z splittist: Nilby: thanks.
2020-12-01T15:27:13Z Nilby: You're welcome :) hope that helps
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2020-12-01T16:14:23Z etimmons: splittist: another one is adopt
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2020-12-01T18:28:59Z shka_: hi all
2020-12-01T18:29:51Z shka_: i am looking for fast binary storage format that i can mmap
2020-12-01T18:29:58Z shka_: i just need tables
2020-12-01T18:30:19Z shka_: hmmmm actually there is manadb
2020-12-01T18:30:26Z shka_: now i have reason to try it!
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2020-12-01T18:44:06Z spxy[m]: hello
2020-12-01T18:44:15Z phoe: heyyyy
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2020-12-01T18:46:44Z pyc: What's the difference between #lisp and ##lisp?
2020-12-01T18:47:33Z ck_: the former is about Common Lisp while the latter isn't
2020-12-01T18:50:13Z phoe: #lisp is about mostly-on-topic Common Lisp discussion, #clschool is about learning Common Lisp, #lispcafe is a mostly-off-topic hangout
2020-12-01T18:50:22Z phoe: there's bunch of other more specific channels, too
2020-12-01T18:50:32Z phoe: related to implementations, projects, personal groups, etc..
2020-12-01T19:00:35Z aeth: "Lisp" can mean "Common Lisp" (e.g. the .lisp extension) or it can mean "the Lisp family of languages"
2020-12-01T19:00:45Z aeth: ##lisp uses the latter definition
2020-12-01T19:01:22Z aeth: There aren't really a lot of Lisps that aren't something else more than they're Lisp (e.g. Schemes) so it's not particularly useful to talk about Lisps as a whole.
2020-12-01T19:02:43Z aeth: Common Lisp is called "Common" Lisp because it should be able to run most historic Lisp programs (including Emacs Lisp, which is intentionally archaic, even though it came after Common Lisp) with very little, if any, modification.
2020-12-01T19:03:56Z aeth: Most other Lisps represent a radical break in compatibility, with the possible exception of Scheme, which still renames practically everything.
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2020-12-01T19:05:57Z aeth: For perspective, sometimes people come here with Emacs Lisp questions and it takes a while to find out that it's not in fact a question about Common Lisp code.
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2020-12-01T19:28:24Z jmercouris: any way to do some operation like 'push' but where I can actually individually push all the elements?
2020-12-01T19:28:30Z jmercouris: (defparameter x (list 0 1 2 3))
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2020-12-01T19:28:41Z jmercouris: (push '(3 4 2) x) -> ((3 4 2) 4 0 1 2 3)
2020-12-01T19:28:51Z jmercouris: instead I would prefer (3 4 2 0 1 2 3)
2020-12-01T19:28:59Z jmercouris: obviously append, but append requires setf'ing X
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2020-12-01T19:30:07Z Bike: jmercouris: i mean, push is just setf x under the hood. you can use define-modify-macro to get appendf, or else i think alexandria has it
2020-12-01T19:30:32Z Bike: https://github.com/keithj/alexandria/blob/master/lists.lisp#L107-L109 yes it does.
2020-12-01T19:30:35Z jmercouris: ah, yes alexandria does have it, I didn't know what the name would be
2020-12-01T19:30:38Z jmercouris: thank you Bike
2020-12-01T19:30:41Z Bike: that is, you'd do (appendf '(3 4 2) x)
2020-12-01T19:30:42Z Bike: np
2020-12-01T19:30:45Z jmercouris: Yes
2020-12-01T19:30:58Z Bike: ...er, would that work, or would it try to modify the quoted list? maybe that wouldn't work
2020-12-01T19:31:05Z jmercouris: its not a quoted list
2020-12-01T19:31:11Z jmercouris: that's just an example for this discussion
2020-12-01T19:31:22Z Bike: well, i mean, i think if you did (appendf y x) it would modify y, not x
2020-12-01T19:31:32Z jmercouris: I'll find out soon enough
2020-12-01T19:31:34Z jmercouris: :-D
2020-12-01T19:31:36Z Bike: true...
2020-12-01T19:32:00Z jmercouris: first arg is place
2020-12-01T19:32:06Z jmercouris: I will assume it will modify that
2020-12-01T19:32:19Z Bike: yeah, ok.
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2020-12-01T19:35:51Z adlai: jmercouris: I realize your example for this was only an example; however, I hope that you are aware that all these examples modifying quotes structure are undefined behavior.
2020-12-01T19:36:51Z jmercouris: I am aware, yes
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2020-12-01T19:38:47Z Bike: well they're trying to modify x, which is fine
2020-12-01T19:40:31Z _death: but jmercouris's example indicates that he wants a prependf
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2020-12-01T19:41:34Z Bike: that's a good way to put it
2020-12-01T19:43:41Z _death: or a push-all macro taking the place as the second argument
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2020-12-01T19:48:26Z _death: though that may be a bit ambiguous.. should it be (3 4 2 ...) or (2 4 3 ...) so I'd say (preferf operator 'prependf)
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2020-12-01T19:51:08Z adlai wonders how much downstream technical debt depends upon chanl's current behavior; a quick glance through quicklisp metadata shows that it does have a few dependants
2020-12-01T19:51:53Z adlai has not checked the other package managers yet
2020-12-01T19:52:57Z adlai: amusingly enough, not one of the dependencies are libraries that I'd heard of, before checking.
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2020-12-01T20:13:38Z jmercouris: the order is irrelevant to me
2020-12-01T20:13:41Z jmercouris: which is why I said you could do push or append
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2020-12-01T20:31:47Z lotuseater: hi there, i wanna make a read macro with #\⍳ that reads in stuff like "⍳5" and produces (loop :for i :from 1 :to 5 :collect i). up to now i only made read macros with read-delimited-list
2020-12-01T20:32:33Z lotuseater: maybe also my understanding of peek-char is slightly better
2020-12-01T20:32:38Z Bike: for that it sounds like you should just be able to use read.
2020-12-01T20:33:02Z Bike: or parse-integer, i guess
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2020-12-01T20:33:38Z lotuseater: hm sounds good
2020-12-01T20:34:30Z sjl: I'd just use `read`, then you could make ⍳(1+ foo) read as (loop for somegensym from 1 :to (1+ foo) collect somegensym)
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2020-12-01T20:35:48Z sjl: well, I'd probably make it read as `(alexandria:iota ... :start 1)` instead of a loop form, but you get the idea
2020-12-01T20:36:28Z lotuseater: so (set-macro-character #\⍳ #'read) ?
2020-12-01T20:37:18Z lotuseater: sjl: ah cool i didn't realize that in alexandria yet
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2020-12-01T20:37:38Z sjl: No, you'd need to make your own function that calls read to read in the next form, then returns the form you want
2020-12-01T20:38:40Z lotuseater: ah of course :D
2020-12-01T20:40:20Z sjl: clhs set-macro-character
2020-12-01T20:40:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm
2020-12-01T20:40:31Z sjl: It would be much like the quote reader example they give there
2020-12-01T20:41:12Z sjl: except instead of returning (list 'quote (read ...)) you return `(alexandria:iota ,(read ...) :start 1)
2020-12-01T20:41:56Z sjl: (you can of course make your own iota function if you don't want to use alexandria
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2020-12-01T20:42:44Z lotuseater: no alexandria is great :3
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2020-12-01T20:43:24Z lotuseater: hehe now simple case seems to work
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2020-12-01T20:47:48Z shinohai: 1
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2020-12-01T20:51:50Z edgar-rft hopes that alexandria has better fire protection now
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2020-12-01T20:56:01Z lotuseater: edgar-rft: what do you mean? have there been problems in the past?
2020-12-01T20:56:20Z Josh_2: yes, the library of alexandria burned down
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2020-12-01T21:00:06Z lotuseater: ah yes of course
2020-12-01T21:00:25Z lotuseater: and it burned down TWO times if I am not mistaken
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2020-12-01T21:02:52Z edgar-rft: details see -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria#Decline
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2020-12-01T21:03:59Z lotuseater: if I had a time machine that would be one place to visit
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2020-12-01T21:05:47Z lotuseater: and now I also get where the name serapeum comes from
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2020-12-01T22:48:22Z adlai wonders whether anyone suggested to github that they parse dependency information from .asd files
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2020-12-01T22:49:29Z adlai: whereas once their easy excuse not to, the absence of a package manager, is gone, they could now just blame the lack of standardization on any single one.
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2020-12-01T23:02:48Z Josh_2: but why?
2020-12-01T23:03:16Z phoe: what do you mean, lack of standardization?
2020-12-01T23:03:32Z phoe: ASDF is *THE* de facto system manager for Common Lisp
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2020-12-01T23:04:06Z phoe: there's nothing even close to it in terms of popularity and use nowadays, and most of these other utilities parse .asd files anyway.
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2020-12-01T23:04:50Z p_l: well, it's not exactly system manager
2020-12-01T23:05:04Z p_l: it's a system definition slash build system
2020-12-01T23:05:08Z phoe: it's not exactly not a system manager either
2020-12-01T23:05:20Z jasom: As its name might suggest, it defines systems, it doesn't manage them per-se
2020-12-01T23:05:45Z p_l: it used to be a system manager through extensions like asdf-install (fortunately dead)
2020-12-01T23:05:55Z phoe: it handles the part where you declare dependencies and it ensures that they are loaded; that's the context that GitHub might want to care about in this context
2020-12-01T23:07:14Z p_l: true dat
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2020-12-01T23:08:45Z adlai used the word 'package', in 'package manager', with the connotation it has in the linux world, of locating and installing external libraries; as opposed to the parts that are entirely within ANSI CL
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2020-12-01T23:09:58Z adlai: lol, at one point, wasn't asdf-install doing text searches of cliki to locate tarball urls?
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2020-12-01T23:10:42Z adlai: back in the good old days, before symbolics.com expired
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2020-12-01T23:31:53Z lotuseater: adlai: i learned some time ago it was the first .com domain in 1985 :) and the ones after that also companies with relation to LISP (machines)
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2020-12-01T23:36:08Z surabax: lotuseater: The first web site of the US White House was powered by CL-HTTP and Statice running on a Symbolics Lisp machine, iirc
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2020-12-01T23:36:34Z surabax: *The first version of the web site
2020-12-01T23:36:46Z lotuseater: surabax: awesome <3
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2020-12-01T23:37:13Z lotuseater: thx for this historical detail
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2020-12-01T23:37:36Z lotuseater: did anyone of you hacked on a real lisp machine in the past?
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2020-12-01T23:40:18Z cl-arthur: lotuseater: maybe you'll enjoy https://lisper.in/reader-macros, it's the tutorial someone recommended me when I first had a problem addressable by a reader macro.
2020-12-01T23:40:49Z cl-arthur: OTOH that was three hours ago and I had left the irc far scrolled up. whoops :)
2020-12-01T23:41:39Z lotuseater: cl-arthur: great thx :)
2020-12-01T23:42:45Z lotuseater: i read up to now to that topic (not everything) in On Lisp, Let over Lambda and https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402
2020-12-01T23:43:13Z lotuseater: ha lol it's the same :P
2020-12-01T23:43:30Z cl-arthur: it's the same *grins* oh well!
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2020-12-01T23:45:16Z lotuseater: did you get my reference last week? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_Lambda_Calculus
2020-12-01T23:46:28Z cl-arthur: I didn't, so I ended up reading the wikipedia entry and some other website too :)
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2020-12-01T23:47:22Z lotuseater: ok good. it came to my mind again because Arthur was one of the Knights from the legend
2020-12-01T23:48:05Z adlai: Arthur was not just one of the knights, he was King of the Britons
2020-12-01T23:48:46Z lotuseater: ah hm so i messed something up
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2020-12-01T23:52:48Z lotuseater: so to have a readmacro for writing lists (aka vectors) like in Haskell i alter the readtable after going into (set-macro-character #\[ ...) so i can have something like [2,5..100] ?
2020-12-01T23:53:41Z lotuseater: i think some foreign stuff needs some kind of backtracking or continuation
2020-12-01T23:54:13Z Bike: er, what are you asking? you could write a list comprehension reader macro, yes
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2020-12-01T23:54:53Z Bike: i'm not sure what backtracking has to do with it
2020-12-01T23:55:19Z lotuseater: yeah and just for understanding to make more advaned readmacros
2020-12-01T23:55:21Z Bike: i guess that's not really a list comprehension
2020-12-01T23:55:31Z lotuseater: no it isn't
2020-12-01T23:55:51Z Bike: anyway, reader macros get a handle to the stream and can read whatever they want and interpret it however they want
2020-12-01T23:56:01Z Bike: so you can do basically whatever you want
2020-12-01T23:56:37Z lotuseater: listcomp would be something like [ x + y | x <- [1..100], y <- [1..100], x+y == 10]
2020-12-01T23:56:53Z lotuseater: yes it is powerful
2020-12-01T23:56:54Z no-defun-allowed: Haskell lists are Lisp proper lists, FWIW
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2020-12-01T23:59:57Z lotuseater: sorry didn't want to annoy with that stuff ._.
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2020-12-02T00:00:41Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: true, but their strings are [Char], which has caused endless consternation
2020-12-02T00:00:56Z lotuseater: Bike: but what didn't fit in my head yet is when I do READ-CHAR but also want to jump back how to do it
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2020-12-02T00:01:54Z lotuseater: moon-child: yes it is awful (but can for simple stuff also be useful) newer libs like RIO are better if you don't like that or the hole Prelude
2020-12-02T00:01:59Z cl-arthur: UNREAD-CHAR. PEEK-CHAR is also useful.
2020-12-02T00:02:57Z lotuseater: damn. yes PEEK-CHAR
2020-12-02T00:03:21Z cl-arthur: read-char -> peek-char -> unread-char. now you know the next two chars in the stream XD
2020-12-02T00:04:34Z lotuseater: yeah and you can give peek-char a char, but if it's not found it seems to throw me to the debugger
2020-12-02T00:07:20Z no-defun-allowed: clhs peek-char
2020-12-02T00:07:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_peek_c.htm
2020-12-02T00:07:54Z lotuseater: hm sometimes I miss in LOOP stuff like collect but giving a typed vector back
2020-12-02T00:08:14Z lotuseater: ok thx no-defun-allowed. hope it doesn't seem to trivial to you
2020-12-02T00:08:23Z no-defun-allowed: (peek-char peek-type) accepts peek-type = NIL to peek the very next character, = T to peek at the next non-whitespace character, and a character to peek at the next character char= to that one.
2020-12-02T00:09:27Z lotuseater: nice
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2020-12-02T00:10:58Z lotuseater: there seems also to be STREAM-PEEK-CHAR and others
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2020-12-02T00:21:45Z no-defun-allowed: I think that is the generic function you can use with Gray streams to implement PEEK-CHAR.
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2020-12-02T00:23:09Z lotuseater: ah yes, had some errors with graystreams, but don't know enough about it
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2020-12-02T03:06:53Z ldb: what is the implementation behind CL's resizable array?
2020-12-02T03:09:05Z no-defun-allowed: One way to implement it is to have a header object, which references a storage vector. Then when you resize the array, you copy the contents of the old storage vector to a new storage vector and swap the old one out.
2020-12-02T03:10:30Z ldb: i know that is the O(n) extra space one
2020-12-02T03:11:03Z ldb: but does any implementation take the O(sqrt n) minimal extra space approch
2020-12-02T03:11:45Z Bike: what approach would that be?
2020-12-02T03:12:21Z moon-child: ldb: if you grow your allocation chunk size exponentially, then the number of times you have to copy goes O(lgn) in the number of items you add
2020-12-02T03:12:47Z ldb: Bike: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/2801681_Resizable_Arrays_in_Optimal_Time_and_Space
2020-12-02T03:12:50Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL extends a vector with vector-push-extend by 50% of its length, from memory.
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2020-12-02T03:15:34Z ldb: This paper describles a improvement on the 50% expansion approch, reduces the extra memory usuage to minimal, and still has the same time complexity
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2020-12-02T03:17:27Z no-defun-allowed: It looks like AREF would be slower, and I don't know of any Lisp systems that use buddy allocation.
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2020-12-02T03:20:18Z ldb: I think the buddy system is for languages with manual memory management, the core data structure is sufficient to be used with GC
2020-12-02T03:22:14Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
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2020-12-02T04:06:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-02T04:13:51Z phantomics: Morning beach
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2020-12-02T04:32:39Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
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2020-12-02T07:45:01Z flip214: Does someone have a gist to fetch all the COPYING, LICENSE, etc. files from all the loaded QL systems?
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2020-12-02T07:45:36Z flip214: The asdf only has a short license name (in different upper/lowercase versions etc.), and some licenses require the authors' names to be mentioned
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2020-12-02T08:24:47Z adlai wonders whether there is any legal precedent regarding the proper labelling of files containing that grade of toxic waste
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2020-12-02T08:25:17Z phoe: legal, I think not; practical, they're called COPYING or LICENSE or sometimes the license text is spliced into the README
2020-12-02T08:25:21Z phoe: so it's kind of a mess
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2020-12-02T08:25:56Z adlai: someone could claim that they only read licenses labelled "COPYING", because they only redistribute code without ever running it.
2020-12-02T08:26:44Z adlai: flip214: my repl history might have something for you.
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2020-12-02T08:27:45Z adlai: ... nope; and iirc, what I did run earlier, was only treeing the asdf fields
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2020-12-02T08:29:06Z adlai: there were few enough installed systems that I "only" encountered a singlehandedly-digital number of (complement #'equal) names for identical licenses.
2020-12-02T08:30:20Z adlai: however, it was the kind of garbage-in-garbage-out that made me afk^hrepl for long enough to forget my paranoiae about intellectual property.
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2020-12-02T08:35:37Z Nilby:  About 750 of 4330 systems I have "loaded" have the liscense field blank. Some licenses have interesting names, such as "BSD or Bugroff" and "do whatever the fuck you want".
2020-12-02T08:37:06Z flip214: Nilby: asdf::primary-system-p could help you to remove all the -tests and similar systems.
2020-12-02T08:38:15Z flip214: and QL doesn't distribute a source link (incl. git hash) with the system list, right?
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2020-12-02T08:38:51Z flip214: well, I guess I'll just make a heuristic that fetches the README.md, .asd, and one of LICENSE|COPYING|similar stuff
2020-12-02T08:38:56Z Nilby: flip214: Thanks. But I think in my case I want those in there.
2020-12-02T08:39:23Z Nilby: flip214: I made a function to look it up in the quicklisp-projects repo.
2020-12-02T08:40:12Z flip214: Nilby: would you share it here? and make a PR for inclusion in QL proper?
2020-12-02T08:40:18Z flip214: what's the license?   ;)
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2020-12-02T08:42:06Z Nilby: Well, it's hackish and depends on my stuff, but https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2180#2180
2020-12-02T08:42:48Z Nilby: It's CC-0 or equivalent if you like.
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2020-12-02T08:43:40Z Nilby: Also it's a shell command.
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2020-12-02T08:45:15Z flip214: Nilby: thanks!
2020-12-02T08:46:02Z Nilby: For this to work you need a checked out quicklisp-projects so it probably can't be in quicklisp proper and probably. I have done some work on a quicklisp tool of sorts.
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2020-12-02T08:47:30Z flip214: Nilby: yeah, just found out that I don't have the source.txt files
2020-12-02T08:47:57Z flip214: it would be great if that would just be another (optional) file in each QL dist
2020-12-02T08:50:35Z Nilby: I think Xach has something planned, but if I ever get my thing done, we could have a project metadata extract.
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2020-12-02T08:57:08Z flip214: it would also be great if everything that's needed for distributing would be available in a central QL place... so the license name, authors (if 4-clause bsd), link to license file (github or whereever), etc.
2020-12-02T09:00:15Z Nilby: Yes.
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2020-12-02T09:06:58Z flip214: what is needed to get trivial-signal working on Windows? I'd like to catch ctrl-c, but the various GCC.EXE I can find just say "sorry, unimplemented: 64bit mode is not included"
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2020-12-02T09:08:45Z Alfr_: flip214, posix signals implementation in windows.
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2020-12-02T09:11:50Z flip214: Alfr_: mingw/cygwin already emulates so much, so I think it should be possible... it's just that grovelling fails, because I can't find a 64bit mingw gcc for windows
2020-12-02T09:11:56Z flip214: stdint.h is 64bit already
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2020-12-02T09:13:32Z Alfr_: Never dug into these. I don't know, sorry.
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2020-12-02T09:15:48Z flip214: thanks anyway!
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2020-12-02T09:17:05Z Nilby: If you're on sbcl I think you can just handle sb-sys:interactive-interrupt.
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2020-12-02T09:23:25Z phoe: https://github.com/guicho271828/trivial-signal/ ?
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2020-12-02T09:28:03Z Nilby: trivial-signal should be fine on "cygwin" or WSL but doesn't work on plain "windows".
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2020-12-02T09:28:48Z flip214: Nilby: well, on linux I also catch another signal to reload the config, and so on.
2020-12-02T09:28:54Z flip214: but thanks!
2020-12-02T09:29:01Z Nilby: sorry for using too many #\quotation_mark
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2020-12-02T09:33:15Z flip214: no problem at all
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2020-12-02T09:55:05Z srandon111: hello all guys i wanted to start with lisp, i watched the SICP lessons and tried some racket but would like to try some lisp, which dialect do you suggest?
2020-12-02T09:55:23Z beach: srandon111: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2020-12-02T09:55:35Z beach: srandon111: So you won't get an unbiased opinion here.
2020-12-02T09:55:52Z srandon111: beach, which are common options here?
2020-12-02T09:56:10Z beach: srandon111: But perhaps you mean "which implementation of Common Lisp" rather than "which dialect"?
2020-12-02T09:56:18Z srandon111: common lisp is the most common option out there? is it modern or like an old abandoned language
2020-12-02T09:56:28Z srandon111: beach, i was thinking common lisp was an implementation of lisp
2020-12-02T09:56:34Z phoe: it's not
2020-12-02T09:56:41Z beach: srandon111: The common options consist of Common Lisp, as far as this channel is concerned.
2020-12-02T09:56:51Z srandon111: phoe, can you explain please?
2020-12-02T09:56:52Z phoe: Lisp is 1) a family of languages, 2) a short term refering to Common Lisp
2020-12-02T09:57:03Z phoe: in #lisp, we use the second meaning like 100% of the time
2020-12-02T09:57:24Z phoe: Common Lisp is a dialect of its own, like Scheme, Clojure, Racket, Shen, Carp, PicoLisp, and what else
2020-12-02T09:57:39Z White_Flame: common lisp basically was the most commercially used lisp variant (and absorbed all the commercial variants).  others are more academic or internal/scripting
2020-12-02T09:57:40Z phoe: and it's definitely not abandoned
2020-12-02T09:57:47Z srandon111: ok phoe which are the more common/modern/used lisps?
2020-12-02T09:57:56Z White_Flame: *in its heyday
2020-12-02T09:58:16Z phoe: Common Lisp is one of them; Racket and Clojure also see some sizeable interest
2020-12-02T09:58:29Z phoe: ##lisp might suit you a bit better - it's for discussing the whole family of languages
2020-12-02T09:58:34Z phoe: whereas #lisp is strictly about Common Lisp
2020-12-02T09:58:42Z beach: srandon111: There is no widely accepted definition of "Lisp", so it is hard to answer your question.
2020-12-02T09:58:57Z beach: srandon111: Especially in a channel that is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2020-12-02T09:59:04Z White_Flame: the original lisp implementation was very simple and grew into many branches
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2020-12-02T10:11:50Z srandon111: okok beach i see thanks for all the details
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2020-12-02T10:13:06Z beach: srandon111: We recommend Common Lisp.  It is a modern language with features that no other language has.
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2020-12-02T10:13:29Z srandon111: what i was exploring with common lisp, is checking out libraries/modules available... since i use neo4j for other projects... i saw this.. https://github.com/kraison/cl-neo4j
2020-12-02T10:13:49Z srandon111: now my thing is... where is the documentation? or should i be able to read the code? is reading code easier in lisp?
2020-12-02T10:14:04Z phoe: CL has a specification named CLHS
2020-12-02T10:14:16Z phoe: you might want to spend some time reading Practical Common Lisp to get used to the syntax
2020-12-02T10:14:23Z beach: I think srandon111 may be referring to the documentation of cl-neo4j.
2020-12-02T10:14:24Z phoe: and to the various aspects of the language
2020-12-02T10:14:29Z phoe: oh! I see
2020-12-02T10:14:48Z phoe: no idea, I guess that depends on the library in question
2020-12-02T10:15:33Z beach: srandon111: If your question is "What Lisp dialect should I choose so that I can use something like neo4j with it", then that is a very tough and very specific question.
2020-12-02T10:16:08Z edgar-rft: I think neo4j is #java ?
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2020-12-02T10:17:58Z loke[m]: Wasn't ABCL originally built for an editor?
2020-12-02T10:18:18Z phoe: edgar-rft: it has non-Java external interfaces though
2020-12-02T10:18:21Z phoe: (AFAIR)
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2020-12-02T10:20:31Z edgar-rft: ah, yes, from reading the code I see that cl-neo4j uses drakma and a web interface
2020-12-02T10:21:32Z adlai: srandon111: "common lisp" describes implementations that have benefitted most from various overfunded industries, and committees, near the end of the previous century.
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2020-12-02T10:22:19Z phoe: adlai: more like language specification rather than implementations, isn't it?
2020-12-02T10:22:29Z phoe: all CL implementations conform to the standard, after all
2020-12-02T10:23:30Z adlai thinks of it as a live thing, consisting of large reptiles, armed amniotes, and ballistic garbage collectors, although you are free to use the term to describe a book instead
2020-12-02T10:24:19Z phoe blinks
2020-12-02T10:24:21Z phoe: ooooookay
2020-12-02T10:26:25Z edgar-rft: srandon111: one of the advantages of using Common Lisp is that the language doesn't change every other year, so you can be pretty sure that your code still will run 10 or 20 years ahead, but because the language hasn't changed in the last 25 years it's sometimes a bit of work to implement newfangled things :-)
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2020-12-02T10:33:27Z Posterdati: hi
2020-12-02T10:33:40Z Posterdati: is anyone using Common Lisp with ROS?
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2020-12-02T10:36:37Z phoe: Posterdati: me
2020-12-02T10:36:42Z phoe: though I only use ros for installing new SBCL versions
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2020-12-02T10:38:38Z Posterdati: phoe: I'd like to install it on a debian 10...
2020-12-02T10:39:08Z Posterdati: phoe: I need to test a PID implementation for a robotic project
2020-12-02T10:39:31Z phoe: Posterdati: grab a deb package from GitHub then
2020-12-02T10:39:58Z no-defun-allowed: You could also install a SBCL of dubious age from the package manager, then use that to bootstrap a new SBCL. Or if there's newer packages, as phoe says...
2020-12-02T10:40:13Z Posterdati: phoe: I installed the one from the debian repository, but cannot make it work
2020-12-02T10:40:39Z no-defun-allowed: What version does Debian 10 ship? Knowing Debian, you could do with a newer version.
2020-12-02T10:41:18Z edgar-rft: sbcl1.4.16 (installed one or two weeks ago)
2020-12-02T10:41:54Z phoe: Posterdati: what's the actual issue?
2020-12-02T10:42:23Z phoe: roswell auto-downloads its own SBCL binaries, it doesn't depend on any systemwide Lisp.
2020-12-02T10:42:27Z Nilby: I'm confused. Are you guys talking about the Robot Operating System, or ros the Roswell commmand.
2020-12-02T10:42:34Z phoe: likely the latter
2020-12-02T10:42:45Z phoe: ...or, ummmm
2020-12-02T10:42:50Z Posterdati: phoe: I'm following http://wiki.ros.org/roslisp/Overview/Installation
2020-12-02T10:43:24Z edgar-rft: ROS, the Reactive Oxygen Species
2020-12-02T10:43:36Z Posterdati: phoe: there isn't any scripts/roslisp-sbcl-init anywhere
2020-12-02T10:43:55Z phoe: after installing the deb file, you should be able to just `ros init` and then `ros install sbcl`
2020-12-02T10:43:58Z phoe: and you should be good to go
2020-12-02T10:44:06Z Posterdati: ok
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2020-12-02T10:47:43Z rogersm: Can string/= return 0?
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2020-12-02T10:48:23Z rogersm: CL-USER> (string/= "a" "b")
2020-12-02T10:48:23Z rogersm: 0
2020-12-02T10:49:13Z White_Flame: string/= returns the index of the mismatch, or nil
2020-12-02T10:49:23Z White_Flame: which still maps to a generalized boolean
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2020-12-02T10:49:29Z edgar-rft: When the mismatch-index argument is true, it is an integer representing the first character position at which the two substrings differ, as an offset from the beginning of string1
2020-12-02T10:49:46Z edgar-rft: ...ANSI says
2020-12-02T10:49:48Z rogersm: but according to to hyperspec:
2020-12-02T10:49:52Z rogersm: string/=
2020-12-02T10:49:52Z rogersm: string/= is true if the supplied substrings are different; otherwise it is false.
2020-12-02T10:50:06Z White_Flame: and 0 is true
2020-12-02T10:50:17Z edgar-rft: in Common Lisp everything that is ot NIL is true
2020-12-02T10:50:17Z rogersm: but your right
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2020-12-02T10:50:36Z White_Flame: yes, my right ;)
2020-12-02T10:50:44Z rogersm: you're
2020-12-02T10:50:47Z edgar-rft: *not* NIL (somebody stole the n)
2020-12-02T10:51:20Z rogersm: what a mess of function
2020-12-02T10:51:31Z White_Flame: if you think about the implementation, it makes a lot of sense
2020-12-02T10:51:37Z White_Flame: just returns the index of the iterator, or nil
2020-12-02T10:51:50Z White_Flame: and is equally useful as a boolean or numeric
2020-12-02T10:52:23Z Nilby: (defalias string/= mismatch)
2020-12-02T10:52:26Z White_Flame: I wonder why they didn't make string= et al return the index as well
2020-12-02T10:52:31Z edgar-rft: agree, Lisp was *much* better when strings still were handled by symbol-names :-)
2020-12-02T10:52:46Z White_Flame: hmm, no, the index would be false in that case, so n/m
2020-12-02T10:53:45Z rogersm: it makes absolutely no sense... but anyway
2020-12-02T10:53:59Z Nilby: If you computed it, why not return it.
2020-12-02T10:55:53Z no-defun-allowed: rogersm: It is usually a good idea to stop making sense when writing Lisp.
2020-12-02T10:57:10Z zge: Can anyone tell me what SBCL's "could not allocate SB-IMPL::TEST" notes mean? I'm getting it for functions that don't even have :test arguments.
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2020-12-02T10:58:43Z no-defun-allowed: A much stupider no-defun-allowed first gave that advice two years ago, but I still stand by it. Though if they act the same, MISMATCH conveys your intent better if you want the mismatch position.
2020-12-02T11:00:20Z no-defun-allowed: Well, string/= will return false for strings of different lengths (without other start and end positions), so they do not act the same.
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2020-12-02T11:05:14Z phoe: rogersm: huh
2020-12-02T11:05:25Z phoe: it returns true or false
2020-12-02T11:05:37Z phoe: so non-NIL or NIL
2020-12-02T11:05:50Z phoe: except the true variant also conveys some more information
2020-12-02T11:06:28Z phoe: why doesn't it make sense
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2020-12-02T11:09:06Z edgar-rft: phoe: The inequality functions return a mismatch-index that is true if the strings are not equal, or false otherwise (last paragraph under "Description")-> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_stgeq_.htm#stringSLEQ
2020-12-02T11:09:34Z phoe: edgar-rft: yes, I'm aware
2020-12-02T11:10:01Z edgar-rft: oh, sorry, you said "NIL or non-NIL" ...
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2020-12-02T12:40:05Z adlai: clhs 6.1.7.2
2020-12-02T12:40:05Z specbot: Initial and Final Execution: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_agb.htm
2020-12-02T12:41:13Z adlai: does the second paragraph of 6.1.7.2 require that the prologue is enclosed by the initial bindings?
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2020-12-02T12:43:21Z phoe: yes, I think so - the initial values are already there
2020-12-02T12:46:21Z adlai smells undefined behavior
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2020-12-02T12:51:42Z adlai: e.g., a conforming implementation could have the initially clauses enclosed as `(:with #.(gensym) (progn ,@prologue))
2020-12-02T12:52:01Z phoe: I don't understand
2020-12-02T12:52:18Z phoe: the variables are bound to their initial values, the prologue is executed, and then iteration starts
2020-12-02T12:52:21Z phoe: did I get the order wrong?
2020-12-02T12:53:59Z adlai can't find a requirement that the prologue be executed strictly after the bindings
2020-12-02T12:54:36Z phoe: "...which precedes all loop code except for initial settings supplied by constructs with, for, or as."
2020-12-02T12:54:52Z phoe: these constructs are variable binding constructs
2020-12-02T12:55:01Z phoe: so to utilize their initial settings the variables must be bound
2020-12-02T12:55:06Z phoe: otherwise the whole passage is meaningless
2020-12-02T12:55:18Z adlai: removing the global lispmachine lock around everything in CLHS causes quite a bit of undefined behavior, and I'm wondering whether it's sane to rely on the initial bindings always being available to the prologue.
2020-12-02T12:56:34Z adlai: clhs 6.1.2.2
2020-12-02T12:56:34Z specbot: Local Variable Initializations: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abb.htm
2020-12-02T12:57:28Z adlai: 6.1.2.2 acknowledges that initializations could occur in parallel
2020-12-02T12:57:33Z phoe: where?
2020-12-02T12:58:29Z phoe: also, if prologue is run with the variables unbound, what does "initial settings supplied by constructs with, for, or as" from 6.1.7.2 refer to?
2020-12-02T12:59:36Z adlai: in the end of 6.1.2.2's second paragraph, "initializations can be forced to occur in parallel", and again before one of the examples.
2020-12-02T13:00:20Z phoe: only if you use AND with WITH
2020-12-02T13:00:37Z phoe: and again, this is only about the difference between LET- and LET*-style variable binding
2020-12-02T13:00:53Z phoe: it says nothing about whether the prologue is executed in scope of these bindings, or outside it
2020-12-02T13:01:00Z adlai: 6.1.7.2's "initial settings" refer to bindings, and maybe declarations
2020-12-02T13:01:35Z phoe: so if these initial settings are there, then there must be variables to bind them to
2020-12-02T13:01:44Z adlai: this is roughly equivalent to order of argument evaluation, and the issues can probably be ignored together.
2020-12-02T13:01:47Z phoe: you cannot declare stuff on variables that don't exist yet.
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2020-12-02T13:22:25Z shka_: hello
2020-12-02T13:22:45Z shka_: so i ran into a little problem
2020-12-02T13:23:50Z shka_: i thought that if two slots in a single class have the same :initarg it would designate that instances will initialize both of slots with the same value if said initarg was passed
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2020-12-02T13:25:26Z shka_: and a simple test confirms this
2020-12-02T13:26:25Z shka_: eh, i must have bug elsewhere
2020-12-02T13:32:47Z Bike: i didn't actually know you could do that. huh.
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2020-12-02T13:36:39Z lotuseater: so *maybe* for more safety it could check if some :initargs are the same
2020-12-02T13:38:11Z Bike: what could check?
2020-12-02T13:38:35Z lotuseater: the compiler
2020-12-02T13:39:09Z lotuseater: it doesn't even say anything if you give multiple same initargs in the same slot
2020-12-02T13:39:09Z Bike: having initargs initialize more than one slot is intentional. the standard explicitly mentions it in 7.1.1 and i can imagine it being useful.
2020-12-02T13:39:30Z lotuseater: yes i didn't say it's not useful
2020-12-02T13:39:31Z Bike: the possibility of initargs initializing more than one slot is intentional, i mean
2020-12-02T13:39:42Z lotuseater: but i also haven't been aware of that
2020-12-02T13:40:01Z lotuseater: clhs 7.1.1
2020-12-02T13:40:01Z specbot: Initialization Arguments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_aa.htm
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2020-12-02T13:42:47Z lotuseater: so having something like
2020-12-02T13:42:52Z lotuseater: (defclass foo ()
2020-12-02T13:42:58Z lotuseater: *urgs*
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2020-12-02T13:43:49Z lotuseater: (defclass foo () ((slot1 :initarg :slot1 :initarg :both-slots) (slot2 :initarg :slot2 :initarg :both-slots)))
2020-12-02T13:44:50Z Bike: yeah, that's legit.
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2020-12-02T13:54:40Z adlai: why is that behavior problematic?
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2020-12-02T13:56:35Z lotuseater: it isn't
2020-12-02T13:56:36Z adlai: to be precise, why could it ever be problematic? the keywords, and their corresponding arguments, should get evaluated precisely once each before the call to shared-initialize
2020-12-02T13:56:49Z Bike: well, you could do it by mistake, i guess.
2020-12-02T13:56:56Z Bike: have two slots with the same initarg i mean.
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2020-12-02T13:57:36Z adlai can see this being a warning that people would want, and that others would deliberately ignore.
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2020-12-02T14:03:22Z lotuseater: when exactly is shared-initialize called?
2020-12-02T14:04:16Z Bike: it's called by initialize-instance, reinitialize-instance, and also for class redefinitions and change-class
2020-12-02T14:04:58Z Bike: e.g., the standard method on initialize-instance is essentially (defmethod initialize-instance (i &rest in) (apply #'shared-initialize i t in))
2020-12-02T14:05:03Z lotuseater: yeah much possibilities
2020-12-02T14:06:11Z Bike: and (defmethod reinitialize-instance (i &rest in) (apply #'shared-initialize i nil in))
2020-12-02T14:06:35Z Bike: the other two are more complicated.
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2020-12-02T15:46:18Z lotuseater: Does anybody of you still uses &AUX in function arguments? Isn't it outdated or when is it really useful?
2020-12-02T15:46:40Z beach: It is very useful.
2020-12-02T15:46:50Z beach: See my ELS paper on method combinations.
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2020-12-02T15:48:51Z lotuseater: okay I look it up :) also found interesting article of you "What is wrong with Lisp?" (but transformed it for my eyes to PDF with org and pandoc, hope that is OK)
2020-12-02T15:49:56Z beach: Sure.
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2020-12-02T15:50:53Z lotuseater: If you want I can upload it for you.
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2020-12-02T15:51:58Z beach: That's OK.  But thanks for the offer.
2020-12-02T15:52:18Z lotuseater: okay
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2020-12-02T16:07:58Z aeth: lotuseater: &aux is super niche and every time I think I need it, I wind up not using it... but one place where &aux could be useful is rebinding dynamic variables.
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2020-12-02T16:10:58Z pfdietz: &aux is useful in struct BOA constructors.
2020-12-02T16:11:11Z pfdietz: clhs 3.4.6
2020-12-02T16:11:11Z specbot: Boa Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_df.htm
2020-12-02T16:11:12Z lotuseater: hui, i try to imagine
2020-12-02T16:11:30Z aeth: (rebinding dynamic variables in an &aux would make it part of the API of the function, as opposed to doing it at a LET in the body)
2020-12-02T16:11:35Z pfdietz: Admittedly, that is niche.
2020-12-02T16:11:37Z lotuseater: BOA and I thought of the snake :D
2020-12-02T16:11:43Z pfdietz: It's a good pun.
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2020-12-02T16:12:08Z lotuseater: but i hope it's still true not to mix &OPTIONALs and &KEYs
2020-12-02T16:12:36Z pfdietz: You get compiler-whine when you do that.
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2020-12-02T16:32:20Z jeosol: Good morning all!
2020-12-02T16:32:32Z beach: Hello jeosol.
2020-12-02T16:33:01Z jeosol: ok.
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2020-12-02T16:35:00Z jeosol: I wanted to asked if it's possible to have a running SBCL session launch another creating a swank port in the process and the parent session then using slime-eval performing some computations
2020-12-02T16:35:34Z jeosol: so far, I have done this using docker (problematic, but works) and starting the sessions by hand.
2020-12-02T16:35:40Z lotuseater: morning jeosol. here it is 5:35pm :)
2020-12-02T16:36:30Z jeosol: lotuseater: Morning to you. I have been told  (in the past) that the universal greeting here is "Good morning" . I initially defaulted to my local time
2020-12-02T16:38:50Z beach: jeosol: Some people use their own local time, and it is interesting to see roughly where people are.
2020-12-02T16:39:00Z beach: lotuseater: But if everyone then answers with their local time, we will very easily get swamped.
2020-12-02T16:39:44Z jeosol: For the above, my use case, I am trying to do remote or distributed evaluations. Assuming of having images corresponding to two systems that accept x as an argument, think e.g., y=2x, and another z = x3+2x (in the real case, the same x value results in total different result).
2020-12-02T16:39:56Z jackdaniel: and that may be tiring, especially in the evening like now :-)
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2020-12-02T16:40:13Z beach: jackdaniel: *sigh* :)
2020-12-02T16:40:46Z jeosol: above, I meant "assuming I have images corresponding to each case"
2020-12-02T16:40:59Z Bike: different images so you can't just use fork or threads, huh
2020-12-02T16:41:21Z phoe: jeosol: this sounds like a use case for swank-crew
2020-12-02T16:41:24Z jeosol: Bike: That's what I am still investigating, I haven't gotten it to work yet, I am looking at uiop:launch-program
2020-12-02T16:42:13Z jeosol: There is a lot of manual starting this, starting that, that i'd like to automate.
2020-12-02T16:42:21Z phoe: you could launch a lisp image and pass it commandline arguments that will have it load up swank and open a swank server, then connect using swank-client or swank-crew from the C&C server
2020-12-02T16:43:01Z lotuseater: jeosol: okay good to know. it's funny having people from all around the world, so morning is anytime
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2020-12-02T16:43:15Z jeosol: phoe: I haven't used swank-crew but did look at it, I could not get a small case to work because I wasn't sure where the workers are supposed to be running. In my case, they are not simple operations
2020-12-02T16:43:17Z phoe: swank-crew does not automate launching other lisp images though; I assume this is up for your OS framework to do
2020-12-02T16:43:31Z lotuseater: and sorry it wasn't meant like that with the time, won't do it anymore :)
2020-12-02T16:44:19Z jeosol: phoe: I am doing the first part of what you describe, and using some bt-thread and uiop:wait-process, but I don't think I am getting it to work yet, it's exiting. But if I take the command string, paste it into a shell it runs fine
2020-12-02T16:45:12Z jeosol: phoe: yes, I am using the swank-client for the evaluations for the cases where I started the repls myself
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2020-12-02T16:50:00Z jeosol: Here is what I have tested (looking at stuff online): https://pastebin.com/s5R89ica
2020-12-02T16:50:50Z jeosol: Additionally, I can say, I want to start optimizations with one function case, e.g., F(x) = 2*x, then I will fire up the repl for that, do some computations, then when I am done, I can then send some message to close it
2020-12-02T16:50:53Z jeosol: or stop it
2020-12-02T16:52:09Z jeosol: or if there is some library that does something similar or with bits, I'd like to take a look
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2020-12-02T16:54:09Z adlai: ... you are trying to have the swank client sbcl optimize code for the server?
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2020-12-02T16:54:52Z jeosol: phoe: about swank-crew, I meant I have looked at it for managing and distributing the work but not starting the repls
2020-12-02T16:55:07Z adlai supposes that is sane if both are actually identical compilers, on the same machine; beyond that, "now you have two problems"
2020-12-02T16:56:27Z jeosol: adlai: pardon that I use the word optimization loosely where where many might get confused with "code optimization". I am referring to mathematical optimization F(x) given some x, which each F1(x) and F2(x) corresponding to different images
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2020-12-02T17:48:48Z sjl: I have a relatively long question about the MOP, defclass, and the evaluation of custom slot arguments.  Pasted here to not flood the channel: https://gist.github.com/sjl/bc5903c62677f0a0ea16a2936e5d3c12
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2020-12-02T17:49:04Z sjl: (the actual thing I'm trying to do is not quite as simple as this example, but this illustrates the problem)
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2020-12-02T17:56:09Z Bike: ahh. yeah, effective slot initargs
2020-12-02T17:57:18Z Bike: the reason it's not getting the initarg is, iirc, that slot definition machinery gathers initargs from the direct slotds and applies inheritance rules, and it doesn't know about :tick so it just ignores it? something like that
2020-12-02T17:57:47Z Bike: let me refresh my memory of the last time i made custom slots...
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2020-12-02T18:02:28Z Bike: i don't think there's any way to customize the evaluation like you want. the defclass macro always quotes extended options. I believe.
2020-12-02T18:05:42Z Bike: it would be tricky to extend the protocol, since you'd presumably want to use the direct slotd class to customize the macro behavior, but the class isn't known yet
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2020-12-02T18:08:10Z lxsameer: hey folks, CL has more rules when it comes to quasiquotation, what does ",." resolves ?
2020-12-02T18:08:37Z Bike: clhs ,.
2020-12-02T18:08:37Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for ,..
2020-12-02T18:08:44Z Bike: it's like nconc in backquote, i think
2020-12-02T18:08:47Z Bike: ,@ except destructive
2020-12-02T18:08:57Z Bike: clhs `
2020-12-02T18:08:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
2020-12-02T18:09:11Z Bike: «Anywhere ``,@'' may be used, the syntax ``,.'' may be used instead to indicate that it is permissible to operate destructively on the list structure produced by the form following the ``,.'' (in effect, to use nconc instead of append). »
2020-12-02T18:10:39Z lxsameer: thanks
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2020-12-02T18:14:41Z Bike: sjl: you could define your own defclass replacement macro of course. i know that's not convenient, but ensure-class is pretty easy to use
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2020-12-02T18:38:02Z sjl: Bike: yeah, that's what I figured.  just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.  thanks.
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2020-12-02T19:38:49Z mseddon: Stupid question- anyone know if I can license some of the fonts from Genera? or is symbolics just a giant dead holding company now?
2020-12-02T19:39:41Z Lycurgus: almost certainly not
2020-12-02T19:40:14Z mseddon: I mean while there's minimal chance of being sued, I'd rather play fair.
2020-12-02T19:40:15Z Lycurgus: there's a likely chain of custody from symbolics or whoever
2020-12-02T19:40:31Z mseddon: yeah. and I'd like to give them $50 to license some fonts :)
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2020-12-02T19:41:13Z mseddon: although it seems very much quite a dead situation now, looks more like a guy in his basement selling boards for people who have to maintain old machines.
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2020-12-02T19:42:14Z Lycurgus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/License-free_software is my pref
2020-12-02T19:42:44Z Lycurgus: fonts tend to be the original ip of the individual artist
2020-12-02T19:43:12Z mseddon: well. that depends on who has them. there are naturally no copyright notices in the bdfs
2020-12-02T19:43:18Z Lycurgus: who will generally be satisfied with mention/credit/advert
2020-12-02T19:43:34Z mseddon: and it's only for some happy reference. But at the same time... gah.
2020-12-02T19:43:43Z Lycurgus: whatever shark ate up whatever ate up symbolics, not so much
2020-12-02T19:43:57Z mseddon: ^ yep. that's my fear.
2020-12-02T19:44:18Z mseddon: I suppose a bunch of them I may be able to yoink from the CADR, since MIT actually respond to emails
2020-12-02T19:44:27Z mseddon: plus I think that's all GPL now
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2020-12-02T19:48:34Z mseddon: meh. it may be easier and better to do it right and commission them from a font designer to be honest. It'd stand up better anyway.
2020-12-02T19:49:36Z Lycurgus: or do it yourself, there's a plethora of font working tools, foundries, etc
2020-12-02T19:50:07Z mseddon: Lycurgus also possible.
2020-12-02T19:50:46Z mseddon: it's kinda easier these days now that we have high dpi screens and you don't need decent 72dpi font hinting
2020-12-02T19:50:53Z Lycurgus: likely to work better since typography in computing has come a ways since the 80s
2020-12-02T19:51:40Z mseddon: yeah the fonts themselves are useless. They look cute and evoke a particular style, but even Cyrillic is not well supported imo
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2020-12-02T19:52:38Z Lycurgus: code pages and the like were embryonic then
2020-12-02T19:54:08Z Lycurgus: i found garnet worked fine but it's not usable for anything new because it looks so stone age
2020-12-02T19:54:29Z Lycurgus: so fine for something that already uses it
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2020-12-02T19:57:33Z mseddon: hehe, yeah. but for example garnet (which I recall from the Amiga days) was a great retro font.
2020-12-02T19:58:45Z Lycurgus: i meant the lisp UI thing and yeah looks like the first macs
2020-12-02T19:59:00Z mseddon: yeah the idea is to deliberately capture that visually.
2020-12-02T19:59:58Z Lycurgus: when I said "found" i meant within the last month
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2020-12-02T20:00:12Z Lycurgus: running in sbcl
2020-12-02T20:00:26Z mseddon: :D the lispm fonts I find are terrible for non-lisp programming
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2020-12-02T22:08:52Z arichiardi[m]: Hi there! I was wondering if anybody know whether CL bindings for LUKS functions (libcryptsetup)? No problem if not, just making sure I am not missing any :D
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2020-12-02T22:42:01Z Josh_2: arichiardi[m]: dont think so but you could always make them :P
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2020-12-02T22:49:43Z arichiardi[m]: yep I have just noticed there are rust bindings, cool thank you!
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2020-12-02T23:51:34Z lotuseater: hehe I tried and it word: #1=(loop :for i :in '#1# :when (keywordp i) :collect i)
2020-12-02T23:51:48Z lotuseater: s/word/worked
2020-12-02T23:53:34Z mseddon: lotuseater: livin' on the edge
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2020-12-02T23:54:06Z thmprover: Is there some way to check if a CL project name has been taken, or is currently in use? I have a horrible pun I want to use, but I don't want to steal it if someone else already has it.
2020-12-02T23:54:52Z no-defun-allowed: Best thing you can do is search it.
2020-12-02T23:54:53Z lotuseater: thmprover: i would look on quicklisp
2020-12-02T23:55:32Z lotuseater: mseddon: not good?
2020-12-02T23:55:44Z mseddon: lotuseater: It returned a value, good! :)
2020-12-02T23:56:28Z thmprover: lotuseater: good idea, luckily the name is free.
2020-12-02T23:56:37Z thmprover: Time to poach this egg.
2020-12-02T23:57:01Z lotuseater: yes! and writing LOOP words as real keywords is not only good for syntax highlighting but also something like DESTRUCTURING-BIND
2020-12-02T23:58:34Z lotuseater: thmprover: but for catching bigger area in the Venn diagram of names github would also be useful
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2020-12-02T23:59:06Z no-defun-allowed: There aren't any other software projects called Netfarm, but there is an Italian open source consultancy named Netfarm.
2020-12-02T23:59:40Z thmprover: Oh, that will make my punny name all the more humorous.
2020-12-02T23:59:45Z lotuseater: this old antic greek again: more things as symbols/names
2020-12-03T00:00:07Z no-defun-allowed: Prior to that, there was also GNU Nettle (a C cryptography library). So it's not just Lisp projects, and it's not just software projects either.
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2020-12-03T00:02:01Z lotuseater: i wonder how difficult it is to realize good and safe cryptostuff in CL. someone told me two years ago the best is in deterministic aka direct assembly
2020-12-03T00:03:14Z lotuseater: but i think the most crypto software is in C
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2020-12-03T00:03:38Z thmprover: Wheh, luckily, no one is using on github either, so I claim in it my own name.
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2020-12-03T00:05:08Z no-defun-allowed: Ironclad makes an attempt to be constant-time IIRC, for example there is an equality operator that computes error |= x[n] ^ y[n], but it's really up to how the implementation handles things.
2020-12-03T00:06:17Z thmprover: My experiment with declarative theorem provers will henceforth occupy the CL-AIM project.
2020-12-03T00:06:48Z thmprover: CL-AIM will test my claim about the irrelevance of the choice for the foundations of mathematics.
2020-12-03T00:08:16Z lotuseater: thmprover: oh sounds interesting. i want to understand more how to work with ACL2, Coq and recently i read L∃∀N should also be good
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2020-12-03T00:09:26Z thmprover: ACL2 looks fascinating. I have a love/hate relation with Coq, but my interest is in doing mathematics with theorem provers, not verifying software.
2020-12-03T00:10:41Z no-defun-allowed: ACL2 is very different. It does the theorem proving process automatically, but you usually need to steer it with lemmas, and it only does first order logic (no higher order functions).
2020-12-03T00:11:20Z lotuseater: yeah and my knowledge of category theory, dependent types is not deep enough yet. but Haskell drills me to widen it. but that's another story. and I know ACL2 is another approach than Coq
2020-12-03T00:12:15Z thmprover: Automath is a good way to learn dependent types, but it's quirky...it's not even in the lambda cube.
2020-12-03T00:13:43Z thmprover: no-defun-allowed: I thought that "wandering" aspect to ACL2 was particularly unique and intriguing.
2020-12-03T00:14:29Z thmprover: Wait, hypothetical question: CL is a lisp-2, so there are separate namespaces for functions and values, right?
2020-12-03T00:14:41Z thmprover: Could I create my own separate namespace for, say, theorems?
2020-12-03T00:15:37Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, usually you would use a hash-table, and some accessor functions like FIND-THEOREM, (SETF FIND-THEOREM), ... to use the namespace.
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2020-12-03T00:19:11Z thmprover: no-defun-allowed: that was my first instinct, too, but it is a "poor man's namespace" rather than a first-class namespace.
2020-12-03T00:19:46Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think there are first-class namespaces in Common Lisp. And if you implicitly FIND-THEOREM on some things, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
2020-12-03T00:20:01Z no-defun-allowed: eg (make-instance 'some-class ...) == (make-instance (find-class 'some-class) ...)
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2020-12-03T00:21:12Z thmprover: Yeah, I was just curious if first-class namespaces were allowed. It seems like quite a niche thing, so completely understandable CL would not have it.
2020-12-03T00:22:11Z no-defun-allowed: And all the CL namespaces are just sets of accessors (occasionally with an environment object).
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2020-12-03T00:30:04Z Bike: having an actual namespace would be most useful for when you want lexical bindings. not sure that's the case for theorems, though.
2020-12-03T00:30:13Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed.
2020-12-03T00:30:18Z Bike: also you can kind of hack lexical binding arbitrary things by abusing symbol-macrolet.
2020-12-03T00:30:43Z Bike: but only for compile time bindings
2020-12-03T00:32:52Z thmprover: I will have to study symbol-macrolet, I have a peripheral awareness of it, but haven't looked at it.
2020-12-03T00:33:29Z Bike: well, basically you can have your binding macro expand into (symbol-macrolet ((some-magic-symbol bindings)) ...), and then use (macroexpand-1 'some-magic-symbol env) to get the bindings.
2020-12-03T00:34:51Z thmprover: Can you override the meaning of a symbol temporarily using symbol-macrolet?
2020-12-03T00:35:20Z Bike: you bind what it means as a variable, if that's what you mean
2020-12-03T00:35:44Z Bike: (symbol-macrolet ((x (print y))) (+ x x)) = (+ (print y) (print y))
2020-12-03T00:36:23Z thmprover: But you couldn't re-bind, say, 'let' (or some other builtin function) temporarily using symbol-macrolet?
2020-12-03T00:37:09Z Bike: let is a special operator, not a function. and symbol-macrolet deals with variables rather than operators. you can use macrolet to shadow operators.
2020-12-03T00:37:23Z Bike: but you can't shadow operators that are part of the standard CL package, such as let.
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2020-12-03T00:37:31Z Bike: because that makes macroexpansions really fraught.
2020-12-03T00:38:50Z thmprover: Alright, good to know, that will save me much trouble later.
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2020-12-03T00:44:30Z Bike: oh, and you said CL was a lisp-2, but there are actually some more namespaces too, like the one for types and classes. doesn't come up immediately in the evaluation semantics though.
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2020-12-03T03:28:54Z loke[m]: I want opinions on a design choice:
2020-12-03T03:30:22Z loke[m]: Imagine a list of "graphical objects" (because that's what they are in Climaxima), and there is a generic function called SAVE-STATE that, when called with a graphical object as an argument returns its configuration as a specially formatted list (a Maxima list actually, but that doesn't matter).
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2020-12-03T03:31:02Z loke[m]: The caller has a list of these objects, and it collects the class name and the output of SAVE-STATE for each object.
2020-12-03T03:31:07Z loke[m]: So far so good.
2020-12-03T03:32:59Z loke[m]: Now, I need to write a LOAD-STATE that does the opposite. One way of doing that would be to take the class name, and call MAKE-INSTANCE on it with the values previously returned from SAVE-STATE as argument.
2020-12-03T03:33:25Z loke[m]: Another would be to have a big ECASE that knows about the object types and dispatch to the correct initialiser.
2020-12-03T03:33:32Z loke[m]: Suggestions?
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2020-12-03T03:34:40Z Bike: make-instance sounds appropriate to me.
2020-12-03T03:36:00Z loke[m]: Bike: But that would add the requirement that whatever is returned from SAVE-STATE is in a form valid as argument to MAKE-INSTANCE. And it may be that some special internal state needs to be initialised that isn't visible from MAKE-INSTANCE. I'd like my solution to be as flexible as possible.
2020-12-03T03:36:16Z loke[m]: Another idea I had was to use ALLOCATE-INSTANCE and then call a generic function with this instance.
2020-12-03T03:36:32Z loke[m]: (I've never used ALLOCATE-INSTANCE though, and frankly it feels a bit dodgy
2020-12-03T03:37:05Z Bike: what make-instance does is call allocate-instance and then call initialize-instance on the result. initialize-instance can be customized with whatever keyword parameters for providing whatever state.
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2020-12-03T03:38:35Z loke[m]: I see.
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2020-12-03T04:03:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-03T05:23:07Z srandon111: hey people, so i am starting with common lisp, do you suggest SBCL ?
2020-12-03T05:23:21Z srandon111: is it the common choice amaong beginners?
2020-12-03T05:23:53Z loke[m]: srandon111: The choice of implementation doesn't really depend on your skill level.
2020-12-03T05:25:05Z loke[m]: Bascially, you have: SBCL - Most common use. It's really high performance, everything is well supported on it and it has great error messages. ABCL - If you need to integrate with the JVM. ECL - If you are looking at integrating with C code, or if you are running on things like embedded platforms.
2020-12-03T05:25:38Z zacts: is clisp still around?
2020-12-03T05:25:52Z srandon111: zacts, clisp? isn't this a channel about clisp ?
2020-12-03T05:26:10Z zacts: no, clisp the MIT gpl lisp implementation
2020-12-03T05:26:12Z srandon111: thanks loke[m] you gave me a great overview about the different implementations, that's really what i needed!
2020-12-03T05:26:15Z loke[m]: zacts: Well, hasn't had a release in 10 years, and most software don't work on it anymore. It's supposedly still being developed but I wouldn't bother until they actually decide to release something.
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2020-12-03T05:26:29Z srandon111: loke[m], what's the last release of sbcl instead ?
2020-12-03T05:26:36Z zacts: loke[m]: ok, thanks. the reason I ask is I think it's what that land of lisp book uses.
2020-12-03T05:27:14Z loke[m]: The benefit CLISP had was that it was easy to port to new platforms. However, these days I think ECL fits that role much better.
2020-12-03T05:27:25Z zacts: cool
2020-12-03T05:27:50Z loke[m]: Then of course there is Lispworks and Allegro. But those are commercial products and unless you're a commercial project there isn't much reason to look at them.
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2020-12-03T05:28:33Z no-defun-allowed: Except for the networking code, you can run all the code in Land of Lisp in any Common Lisp implementation.
2020-12-03T05:28:45Z zacts: ah cool
2020-12-03T05:29:13Z loke[m]: Did I miss anything? There is GCL. That one still exists and gets fixes once in a while. These days the only thing it's used for that I know of is some distributions still build Maxima using it.
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2020-12-03T05:29:45Z zacts: huh, I wonder if ABCL can interop with other JVM based languages.
2020-12-03T05:29:54Z no-defun-allowed: I am sure someone has ported it already, but a fun extension might be to look up the usocket documentation and have a go at porting the networking code to use usocket. From memory, the CLISP and usocket interfaces are very similar.
2020-12-03T05:30:22Z loke[m]: zacts: Yes, it can. Most JVM languages use some Java-compatible way of exposing API's.
2020-12-03T05:30:43Z srandon111: loke[m], what do you suggest to do network programming on lisp ?
2020-12-03T05:30:46Z srandon111: like crafting packets
2020-12-03T05:31:00Z no-defun-allowed: I'm also sure that interfacing Kotlin and Scala is basically the same as interfacing Java.
2020-12-03T05:31:00Z loke[m]: srandon111: That question is too broad to give a simple answer.
2020-12-03T05:31:13Z loke[m]: *no-defun-allowed*: Yes, definitely.
2020-12-03T05:31:37Z loke[m]: srandon111: SBCL does this very well.
2020-12-03T05:32:12Z loke[m]: But ABCL has a huge benefit if you want to integrate will any of the billions of Java libraries.
2020-12-03T05:32:39Z srandon111: loke[m], i was searching for something similar to python scapy ... beware NOT scrapy, but scapy, which is a packet crafter
2020-12-03T05:32:58Z loke[m]: With SBCL I've had to turn to IOLIB quite a few times. IOLIB is OK, but its requirement on libfixposix is very annoying.
2020-12-03T05:33:50Z no-defun-allowed: Searching "common lisp packet crafting" comes up with https://github.com/mets634/packet-crafting/ which was added to Quicklisp recently.
2020-12-03T05:34:32Z loke[m]: srandon111: You might want to look at the BINARY-TYPES package, which is the first one I found while searching.
2020-12-03T05:34:33Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, what is quicklisp?
2020-12-03T05:34:36Z loke[m]: There are others.
2020-12-03T05:34:58Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: Quicklisp is some software you can use to retrieve Common Lisp libraries over the internet.
2020-12-03T05:35:03Z srandon111: loke[m], wow seems documented like the average perl package
2020-12-03T05:35:04Z srandon111: https://github.com/mets634/packet-crafting/
2020-12-03T05:35:10Z srandon111: ohh okok
2020-12-03T05:35:12Z loke[m]: srandon111: Quicklisp is the standard library dependency manager in Lisp.
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2020-12-03T05:35:25Z srandon111: ohh okok loke[m] similar to maven or pip
2020-12-03T05:35:36Z loke[m]: Yes, something like that.
2020-12-03T05:35:39Z loke[m]: But good.
2020-12-03T05:36:15Z no-defun-allowed: Eh, that library doesn't give you much to chew on.
2020-12-03T05:36:42Z loke[m]: https://quickref.common-lisp.net/binary-types.html
2020-12-03T05:37:04Z srandon111: loke[m], "but good" ahahah explain that
2020-12-03T05:37:25Z srandon111: loke[m], these libraries are not able to send any packets it seems
2020-12-03T05:38:07Z loke[m]: srandon111: Of course not. Sending packets is a different thing. You open a connection and WRITE them. These are different things, and handled by different libraries of course.
2020-12-03T05:38:12Z no-defun-allowed: What about https://github.com/atomontage/plokami which uses libpcap?
2020-12-03T05:39:03Z no-defun-allowed: "packet crafter" suggests that we are trying to fiddle with packets, and not normal network programming which doesn't explicate packets.
2020-12-03T05:39:36Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, i see but i've seen generally that packet crafters generally also have functions to send/receive packets
2020-12-03T05:39:41Z srandon111: e.g., liike the one loke[m] sent..
2020-12-03T05:39:52Z no-defun-allowed: I hear pcap can send packets now.
2020-12-03T05:40:05Z srandon111: plokami... wow, this is the thing i was searching i think... now i only have to understand how to idgest lisp docs
2020-12-03T05:40:58Z srandon111: thanks loke[m]
2020-12-03T05:41:46Z srandon111: sbcl is only for gnu/linux and macosx right? what is it used on windows?
2020-12-03T05:42:00Z srandon111: just as a curiosity... to understand how much cross platform it is...
2020-12-03T05:42:04Z loke[m]: SBCL works on Windows too.
2020-12-03T05:42:09Z srandon111: ohh okok
2020-12-03T05:42:12Z srandon111: thanks loke[m]
2020-12-03T05:42:23Z loke[m]: I'm not sure SBCL works on ARM mac?
2020-12-03T05:43:15Z loke[m]: http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
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2020-12-03T05:43:21Z no-defun-allowed: I think SBCL on AArch64/macOS is being worked on.
2020-12-03T05:43:33Z loke[m]: Perhaps the ARM boxes on this table should be red rather than grey for ARM mac?
2020-12-03T05:43:42Z loke[m]: OK, yellow then :-)
2020-12-03T05:44:37Z srandon111: it's a pity it doesn't work on dragonflyBSD PPC64le
2020-12-03T05:45:49Z srandon111: also RISC-V 64 architecture is not supported with DragonFlyBSD, well SBCL does not seem really cross-platform as i thought
2020-12-03T05:45:59Z srandon111: loke[m], do you think they are working on this?
2020-12-03T05:46:25Z loke[m]: srandon111: Well, the platform is very low-level, which is why it can be so efficient.
2020-12-03T05:46:29Z no-defun-allowed: I think you are the only person in #lisp that uses dragonflyBSD on PPC64le.
2020-12-03T05:47:11Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, wow really? why? what you don't like about dragonflyBSD on PPC64le ?
2020-12-03T05:47:30Z srandon111: loke[m], yes i see..
2020-12-03T05:47:33Z loke[m]: srandon111: I don't think anyone said they don't like it.
2020-12-03T05:47:44Z moon-child: I don't think anyone dislikes that combination specifically; just, both components are somewhat obscure
2020-12-03T05:47:50Z srandon111: loke[m], so why they are not using it ?
2020-12-03T05:47:58Z srandon111: oh okok moon-child
2020-12-03T05:48:20Z no-defun-allowed: Now that you mention it, I don't really like Unix at all, but otherwise I think that most people don't use PowerPC machines, most people don't use BSD, and out of the BSD family, most people don't use dragonflyBSD [citation needed].
2020-12-03T05:48:20Z srandon111: well i thought dragonflyBSD was more popular these days
2020-12-03T05:48:39Z loke[m]: srandon111: I can't speak for others, but for me it's a combination of no access to the hardware, and that my BSD machines run FreeBSD which works fine for my use cases.
2020-12-03T05:48:44Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, since you don't like UNIX what OS do you like ?
2020-12-03T05:48:56Z srandon111: loke[m], so you are running FreeBSD ?
2020-12-03T05:49:06Z loke[m]: srandon111: On my servers yes.
2020-12-03T05:49:19Z srandon111: loke[m], what about laptops/workstations?
2020-12-03T05:49:25Z srandon111: dragonflyBSD ?
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2020-12-03T05:49:39Z no-defun-allowed: "An operating system is a collection of things that don't fit inside a language; there shouldn't be one."
2020-12-03T05:49:48Z loke[m]: Various Linuxes. I try to run Qubes OS as much as I can, but I tend to need GPU support which means I'm on Fedora/Arch.
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2020-12-03T05:50:23Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, sorry what do you mean? i mean if you don't like UNIX what are you using? TempleOS or windows?
2020-12-03T05:50:47Z loke[m]: I agree with *no-defun-allowed*
2020-12-03T05:50:57Z loke[m]: I wish I didn't have to run Linux but here we are.
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2020-12-03T05:51:12Z no-defun-allowed: I use Smalltalk-80 on a Wii.
2020-12-03T05:51:24Z srandon111: loke[m], what's the meaning ? i mean if you run freebsd or MAC you still run some kind of UNIX
2020-12-03T05:51:40Z srandon111: so the options are not many when talking about laptops/workstations..
2020-12-03T05:51:56Z no-defun-allowed: No, I also put up with a Linux machine. Dammit, two of them. And the two Android phones on my desk, which sometimes count and sometimes don't.
2020-12-03T05:52:01Z loke[m]: srandon111: Unix isn't good. It's pretty awful really, but out of the systems one can practically run these days, there isn't anything better.
2020-12-03T05:52:16Z srandon111: loke[m], what makes it awful ?
2020-12-03T05:52:36Z beach: srandon111: There is a book about it: "The Unix haters handbook"  I recommend it.
2020-12-03T05:52:52Z beach: srandon111: It was written by very smart and highly knowledgeable people.
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2020-12-03T05:53:17Z beach: srandon111: It is available for free as a PDF.
2020-12-03T05:53:22Z loke[m]: I don't fully agree with all of beach's opinions, but I'm mostly aligned, so I would recommend you read his paper on this topic.
2020-12-03T05:53:24Z loke[m]: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
2020-12-03T05:53:28Z no-defun-allowed: Ideally, I would have something closer to Genera, then closer to Mezzano or CLOSOS, but (supposing I can accept the slowdown) with some form of network transparency.
2020-12-03T05:53:47Z no-defun-allowed: I have network transparent and replicatable objects of some form in Common Lisp, now I just need CLOSOS.
2020-12-03T05:54:15Z beach: Wow, the pressure...
2020-12-03T05:54:38Z beach is joking.
2020-12-03T05:54:45Z srandon111: loke[m], no-defun-allowed you guys talk bad about UNIX just because I think you didn't have a real UNIX experience, that is DragonFlyBSD on a PPC64le!
2020-12-03T05:55:16Z loke[m]: srandon111: I'll ignore that comment :-)
2020-12-03T05:55:19Z no-defun-allowed: A "real" UNIX would require a teletype and a PDP-11
2020-12-03T05:55:22Z beach: srandon111: We talk bad about Unix because we knew that there were better things before, and we know that we can do much better.
2020-12-03T05:55:51Z srandon111: beach, i see, i will certainly read the paper
2020-12-03T05:56:05Z beach: srandon111: Unfortunately, many generations of software developers have been brainwashed to think that Unix is the best we can do, and the best we ever did.
2020-12-03T05:56:23Z srandon111: beach, well probably becacuse the alternatives suck more
2020-12-03T05:56:30Z zacts: by Unix do you mean primarily the kernel, or the entire system?
2020-12-03T05:56:39Z beach: srandon111: Not so, no.
2020-12-03T05:56:40Z loke[m]: Also, I have worked with different Unix vendors since the mid-90's. And I did spend many years working for Sun Microsystems, and my opinion is that the best C code base I've had the pleasure of working with was Solaris. I do believe I have quite a bit of Unix knowledge.
2020-12-03T05:56:47Z no-defun-allowed: In the introduction to the book I'm writing, I also have a few things to say about the "real" Unix philosophy, and the braindead programs it spawns. We pretend we have smaller and smaller machines, write programs targeting those machines, then simulate having smaller machines, and screw up inter-"machine" communication.
2020-12-03T05:56:51Z srandon111: zacts, well i mean the whole system also the basic utilities and man pages
2020-12-03T05:57:05Z srandon111: beach, well the alternatives for consumer electronics are Windows or MacOS
2020-12-03T05:57:18Z srandon111: beach, so now GNU/Linux seems better
2020-12-03T05:57:19Z no-defun-allowed: Because lots of consumers use dragonflyBSD. Right.
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2020-12-03T05:57:23Z beach: zacts: Well, applications compensate for the horrible programming model, but the cost is huge.
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2020-12-03T05:57:34Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, unluckily not =(
2020-12-03T05:58:05Z beach: srandon111: Sure, if all you look at is what is readily available.
2020-12-03T05:58:11Z loke[m]: Also, mac, windows and linux use pretty much the exact same programming model for the most part. They all have the same memory, the same concept of processes and threads, etc.
2020-12-03T05:58:26Z zacts: how about plan9?
2020-12-03T05:58:33Z srandon111: loke[m], that's why i switched to dragonflyBSD
2020-12-03T05:58:42Z no-defun-allowed will refrain from trying to guess the usage of a hardware × operating system combination next time.
2020-12-03T05:58:46Z srandon111: it's somewhat different and the amount of software you can run is astonishing
2020-12-03T05:58:56Z loke[m]: srandon111: ...which also has exactly the same memory model and processes concepts.
2020-12-03T05:59:50Z loke[m]: What most of us consider "better" doesn't actually exist in a user-friendly package at this time.
2020-12-03T06:00:03Z beach: Well put.
2020-12-03T06:00:06Z srandon111: loke[m], well it's somewhat different, i advice you to try it on your laptop for a real experience... install it, it's cool! well i don't know how the experience is on non PPC64le
2020-12-03T06:00:39Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_BSD_operating_systems there's quite a few BSD systems, and it appears they have less ABI compatibility than Linux distributions.
2020-12-03T06:00:51Z srandon111: loke[m], youo can also install it on some smart phones...
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2020-12-03T06:01:17Z srandon111: well after that you cannot make phone calls, but you have a full fledged cli shell that rocks!
2020-12-03T06:01:24Z loke[m]: srandon111: Most of us are experienced enough that a new coat of paint on top of the same old isn't going to excite us very much.
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2020-12-03T06:01:43Z srandon111: loke[m],yah i see
2020-12-03T06:02:05Z no-defun-allowed: Damn, even my girlfriend used to maintain a BSD operating system. Kinda rude for me to forget then. Don't tell her that.
2020-12-03T06:02:21Z srandon111: there is also this project "Gentoo/DragonFlyBSD" that was interesting but unluckily does not seem to be ported to PPC64le
2020-12-03T06:02:32Z loke[m]: srandon111: Trust me, I know perfectly well what you're talking about. I was pretty happy to be able to install a proper shell on my Lego Mindstorms hardware so I could ssh into it and actually do stuff with it.
2020-12-03T06:02:43Z srandon111: ahahahah
2020-12-03T06:02:49Z srandon111: loke[m], that's great!
2020-12-03T06:02:54Z loke[m]: I them proceeded to port ECL to it so I could control my Lego stuff from Lisp.
2020-12-03T06:03:00Z srandon111: i used to install gentoo on wii it was cool
2020-12-03T06:03:02Z no-defun-allowed: But given the pains I have with a "fake" Unix, I don't want to know how a "real" one goes.
2020-12-03T06:03:16Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, let's write a cool OS
2020-12-03T06:03:24Z srandon111: based entirely on LISP ;D
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2020-12-03T06:03:42Z no-defun-allowed: Given that you upcase it, I fear we are not going to work well together.
2020-12-03T06:04:11Z loke[m]: srandon111: But you have to understand that when we talk about a "better" operating system, we look at something way beyond just a new user interface, or getting rid of systemd.
2020-12-03T06:04:12Z no-defun-allowed: And I already said that I think there shouldn't be an operating system.
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2020-12-03T06:04:59Z zacts: no-defun-allowed: like, there would be no kernel, or?
2020-12-03T06:05:08Z fe[nl]ix: loke[m]: would it be useful to you if I distributed an SBCL image with libfixposix (an perhaps also openssl) statically compiled ?
2020-12-03T06:05:12Z loke[m]: I'm saying that the whole idea of a "process" is not necessary. It was based on ideas that would not be needed.
2020-12-03T06:05:28Z beach: zacts: Exactly.
2020-12-03T06:05:52Z beach: zacts: Even Multics (that Unix attempted to copy as much as they could) did not have a kernel.
2020-12-03T06:05:54Z srandon111: loke[m], what to usue instead of processes?
2020-12-03T06:06:08Z beach: srandon111: Threads.
2020-12-03T06:06:21Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, we make it entirely lisp but with the same user experience of drangonflybsd on ppc64le
2020-12-03T06:06:32Z srandon111: beach, and then?
2020-12-03T06:06:40Z beach: I don't understand.
2020-12-03T06:06:48Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, that would rock the s**t out of all other OSes
2020-12-03T06:06:58Z loke[m]: fe[nl]ix: For me? No. I can personally deal with libfixposix. It's no big deal. I also have no issues with software distribution myself. The one issue with it that people download SBCL, ECL, ABCL, try to quickload a project that depends on IOLIB and it explodes because libfixposix isn't available.
2020-12-03T06:07:09Z srandon111: i mean why people should still use Win/Mac/Lin if they can have a dragonflyBSD experience?
2020-12-03T06:07:51Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: And nothing of value would be made.
2020-12-03T06:07:51Z loke[m]: fenlix: I think having libfixposix in quicklisp would be a solution. I think it would be possible, with the package including the C source code and it being compile das part of loading the ASDF package.
2020-12-03T06:08:14Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, what do you mean?
2020-12-03T06:08:25Z no-defun-allowed: It would stink as much as any other Unix system.
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2020-12-03T06:09:32Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, no no trust me...
2020-12-03T06:09:35Z fe[nl]ix: loke[m]: I doubt that would be possible because the configure script needs to run first, then the library must be installed in a proper location for loading to work
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2020-12-03T06:09:56Z loke[m]: srandon111: I think we're all having completely different perspectives. Even if you don't agree with it, could I ask you to watch this video showing what Lisp-based computing is all about. It doesn't mean that we all want exactly this, but it's an illustration of what used to be, and why we're looking at these concepts for inspiration?
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2020-12-03T06:10:12Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, let's strt it dude... like let's quit our jobs and start this project, we will become rich... i already all the people using our OS in schools and hacking with the DragonFly
2020-12-03T06:10:13Z loke[m]: srandon111: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk
2020-12-03T06:10:33Z srandon111: loke[m], thanks for sure
2020-12-03T06:10:34Z zacts: wait, loke[m] no-defun-allowed, are you actually working on a lisp based OS?
2020-12-03T06:11:04Z beach: zacts: There are already two of those around: Movitz and Mezzano.
2020-12-03T06:11:07Z srandon111: loke[m], i am not saying i don't agree with you... because my skill level is much lower than yours to have my own robust opinion on this topic, so surely, I will inspect the references you are sending me
2020-12-03T06:11:26Z loke[m]: zacts: Well, I'm not directly working on it. I'm trying to help out as much as I can though.
2020-12-03T06:11:27Z beach: zacts: But I am working on SICL which I hope will be the basis for CLOSOS.
2020-12-03T06:11:48Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, we just have to think about a name now...
2020-12-03T06:11:54Z loke[m]: srandon111: the video is really showing some of the interesting concepts.
2020-12-03T06:12:04Z srandon111: loke[m], thanks Sir! I appreciate it!
2020-12-03T06:12:06Z beach: zacts: I really need to get SICL into a good-enough state that others can start working.
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2020-12-03T06:13:13Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, what do you say about AstonishingDragonFlyInspiredCoolOS ?
2020-12-03T06:13:16Z srandon111: ADFICOS
2020-12-03T06:13:19Z srandon111: seems cocol
2020-12-03T06:13:21Z srandon111: *cool
2020-12-03T06:13:34Z zacts: oh neat
2020-12-03T06:14:33Z srandon111: zacts, you will be the first user
2020-12-03T06:14:51Z srandon111: we will install it on your microwave, fridge, laptop, router, server, and wife!
2020-12-03T06:15:12Z srandon111: or husband depending on your preferences of cocurse
2020-12-03T06:15:21Z srandon111: ADFICOS is a politically correct OS
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2020-12-03T06:18:03Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: Stop pinging me.
2020-12-03T06:18:27Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, sorry Sir i didn't do it on purpose
2020-12-03T06:18:45Z srandon111: ops sorry again
2020-12-03T06:18:54Z zacts: so would the lisp OS require a specific type of CPU?
2020-12-03T06:19:07Z no-defun-allowed: Quite frankly, I don't give a shit - you may get commercial success, but if I do that, I'm sure I've failed in my work.
2020-12-03T06:19:09Z srandon111: zacts, well that's easy... PPC64le of course
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2020-12-03T06:19:18Z no-defun-allowed: And I'm ma[d']am to you.
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2020-12-03T06:19:47Z srandon111: ok ma'am
2020-12-03T06:20:00Z no-defun-allowed: Right, thankyou.
2020-12-03T06:20:27Z srandon111: sorry for annoying you with the pings, it wasn't my purpose i was just excited for ADFICOS you know
2020-12-03T06:21:39Z zacts: I'm just having a difficult time wraping my head around not having a kernel+userspace.
2020-12-03T06:21:59Z srandon111: zacts, you must have an open mind, let's start to code it
2020-12-03T06:22:08Z zacts: ugh..
2020-12-03T06:22:26Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not very excited about it - most of my problems with my work are because of serialization (and because people end up using data structures and the serialized representation as the basis for their protocols) and process boundaries.
2020-12-03T06:23:13Z srandon111: how can you not be not excited??????? :( you are emotionless
2020-12-03T06:23:20Z srandon111: zacts, what?
2020-12-03T06:23:33Z srandon111: zacts, create an svn repo
2020-12-03T06:24:18Z no-defun-allowed: Instead of working with objects like normal people, we're writing lenses translating JSON documents and basing more protocols around "the schema" and whatever.
2020-12-03T06:24:51Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: I have emotions, thankyou. And I have been depressed that wherever I go, there is not much imagination going around.
2020-12-03T06:25:04Z loke[m]: srandon111: I can telly you why I'm less interested. I've been excited about these things many times before, and after a while you get jaded. There really isn't much new here.
2020-12-03T06:26:06Z srandon111: no-defun as you can imagine, i am joking, i didn't mean you have no emotions... i hope you can solve your problem with the lenses anyway!
2020-12-03T06:26:13Z srandon111: loke[m], yeah i see
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2020-12-03T06:26:52Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, and I've been depersonalised enough times, thankyou.
2020-12-03T06:27:20Z no-defun-allowed: And I said I didn't want to use lenses, but whatever I say doesn't seem to be sticking.
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2020-12-03T06:28:36Z srandon111: no-defun i am really sorry, i mean it was just a joke to say "you are emotionless" i don't even know you, i mean it was just to joke, really I mean sorry! I really didn't have any reason to say that...
2020-12-03T06:28:37Z loke[m]: srandon111: I really don't want to try to extinguish your excitement. I used to be really excited about some of these things too. I used to be really exited about the prospects of GNOME, for example. How it promised to integrate applications in a really neat way, when it was based on CORBA (remember that one?).
2020-12-03T06:29:00Z srandon111: loke[m], yes i know what you are talking about...
2020-12-03T06:29:09Z srandon111: yes but nowadays gnome really disappoints me
2020-12-03T06:29:14Z loke[m]: In a way, GNOME did manage to fulfil some of its promised, but I see its true potential to be hampered by a lot of legacy.
2020-12-03T06:29:15Z srandon111: i never really use it
2020-12-03T06:29:29Z srandon111: loke[m], gnome is dependant on systemd last time i checked
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2020-12-03T06:29:38Z srandon111: i mean from gnome 3
2020-12-03T06:31:32Z loke[m]: So what me, beach, n-d-f and others are talking about here are ideas related to completely getting rid of a lot of this legacy. For example, why do we even have the concept of a "process" with different "address spaces"? Well, the reason is that once upon a time you wrote code in assember or C which translates directly to machine code where the code can access any memory address they want to.
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2020-12-03T06:31:51Z loke[m]: The idea of a process serves to abstract this away at the machine lever to make execution safe.
2020-12-03T06:32:57Z srandon111: loke[m], so this is the resource i should read right ? https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf
2020-12-03T06:33:14Z loke[m]: Well, what if you abstract things on a higher level? Most software already does this, for example Lisp, Javascript, Java, Python, etc. All of these use some form of "managed runtime". If we all do this already, why are we even restricting ourselves by thinking about resources in terms of processes?
2020-12-03T06:35:01Z loke[m]: srandon111: well, you could. It serves to illustrate that there used to be different (and sometimes, but not always) better solutions to Unix solutions. It reads like grumpy old men complaining abut how Unix ruined their favourite operating systems (Which usually is VMS), which is a style I don't like, because VMS is also not perfect.
2020-12-03T06:35:07Z srandon111: loke[m], ok so basically i can imagine a machine where the OS is an interpreter, let's say for the sake of this example a sort of python interpreter and then basically everything that gets created is a thread
2020-12-03T06:35:13Z srandon111: but what would be the advantage of this ?
2020-12-03T06:35:37Z loke[m]: srandon111: For that, I suggest you read beach's paper. It really explains exactly that.
2020-12-03T06:35:41Z srandon111: i mean we still should have vulnerabilities right ? threads can share resources
2020-12-03T06:35:50Z srandon111: ok loke[m] sos i will first read beach's paper
2020-12-03T06:35:56Z beach: srandon111: Today, when you need to communicate between processes, you need to convert everything to a stream of bytes.  That is not only silly and costly, you also lose identity.
2020-12-03T06:36:22Z zacts: where is beach's paper?
2020-12-03T06:36:38Z loke[m]: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
2020-12-03T06:36:47Z zacts: thanks
2020-12-03T06:37:34Z beach: zacts: As loke[m] says, the idea of a process is to emulate a bare machine so that we can program the same way that we did some 70 years ago, but there is no profound reason why we would want that.  So if you don't allow application code direct access to its entire address space, there is no need for a kernel.
2020-12-03T06:37:35Z srandon111: beach, what do you mean by identity ? ok sorry probably i will find that out in the paper
2020-12-03T06:38:02Z moon-child: beach: shared memory is a thing
2020-12-03T06:38:05Z beach: srandon111: You can't send a pointer to an object from one process to another, and have that other process update it.
2020-12-03T06:38:10Z moon-child: on unix
2020-12-03T06:38:16Z loke[m]: srandon111: Yes, vulnerabilities doesn't magically go away. However, process boundaries also doesn't magically _solve_ those problems.
2020-12-03T06:38:42Z loke[m]: Process boundaries are a terrible crude way job isolation.
2020-12-03T06:38:55Z beach: moon-child: Yes, there are kludges to get around it, but you can do that only if both processes agree on the addresses and such.
2020-12-03T06:38:58Z srandon111: ok loke[m] i see
2020-12-03T06:39:10Z srandon111: beach, i understand
2020-12-03T06:39:33Z srandon111: it's crazy how the common OS are behind the state of the art o the research like decades
2020-12-03T06:39:40Z srandon111: i mean after hearing your point
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2020-12-03T06:40:07Z moon-child: srandon111: another fun thread to pull on is keykos
2020-12-03T06:40:19Z srandon111: moon-child, never heard about it
2020-12-03T06:40:27Z loke[m]: srandon111: It's not crazy at all. These systems became popular for the exact reason that they are old. It's  stable platform on which people can develop solutions for decades without worrying about things changing underneath them.
2020-12-03T06:40:28Z beach: srandon111: Not quite.  The technology existed 50 years ago.  It is just that Unix became very popular and squashed what we had.
2020-12-03T06:40:36Z srandon111: moon-child, what about TempleOS, was it implementing state of the art stuff ?
2020-12-03T06:41:03Z loke[m]: srandon111: In a way, yes. A lot of ideas in temple is embodying the same concepts as Lisp machines.
2020-12-03T06:41:13Z srandon111: loke[m], i didn't know
2020-12-03T06:41:46Z loke[m]: If you look a people talking about temple they are impressed by how objects are preserving identity across the system. Exactly what Beach is talking about.
2020-12-03T06:42:04Z loke[m]: However, it's of course hampered by all the crazy stuff. But there are neat ideas there.
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2020-12-03T06:49:18Z srandon111: loke[m], that's crazy
2020-12-03T06:49:49Z zacts: beach: that's a cool paper
2020-12-03T06:49:57Z beach: Thanks.
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2020-12-03T06:54:21Z zacts: so could a user extend the system kind of like on the hurd? a user could implement their own filesystem or device driver to use?
2020-12-03T06:54:44Z beach: Sure, with the proper permissions.
2020-12-03T06:54:52Z beach: But not at all like the Hurd.
2020-12-03T06:55:05Z beach: The Hurd is kind of byte-copying in the extreme.
2020-12-03T06:58:33Z no-defun-allowed: Outside of technical issues like the isolation model, I dislike Unix because a. how you expect to use it doesn't correspond to how you should use Lisp - I read tutorials where the author wrote "Oh, SLIME and Emacs and all that shit? Don't need it. Just use vi to write the file, and then run 'sbcl --script file.lisp'", and I know that they have screwed over their readers; and b. it's presented as an improvement over
2020-12-03T06:58:33Z no-defun-allowed: Windows or macOS, and then you need a kick in the stomach to consider that you might want to improve on that, too.
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2020-12-03T06:59:18Z no-defun-allowed: The former is often blamed on Lisp ("guis this is why Lisp isn't popular, we just need to take away the part that makes people want to use it"), but I choose to blame it on Unix.
2020-12-03T07:00:24Z zacts: hum... the fs mentioned in the paper sounds interesting too.
2020-12-03T07:00:45Z beach: There is no file system because there are no files.  But one could be written of course.
2020-12-03T07:00:57Z no-defun-allowed: The "converse" of that would be why I wouldn't write a Unix clone in Lisp; you lose the dynamics and the abstraction that Lisp facilitates with a kernel-userland split and processes, respectively.
2020-12-03T07:02:11Z zacts: beach: no files? so just data structures?
2020-12-03T07:02:55Z moon-child: (It's probably worth noting that lisp vs unix is a flamewar that goes back decades, and that if I defend unix I'm mostly playing devil's advocate)
2020-12-03T07:03:02Z beach: zacts: Yes.  But some of those can be vectors of bytes, of course.
2020-12-03T07:03:04Z moon-child: zacts: I mean, a tree is a data structure
2020-12-03T07:03:31Z moon-child: zacts: so, not 'just' data structure; *more* data structure, a superset of those exposed by hierarchical FS
2020-12-03T07:03:44Z moon-child: *structures
2020-12-03T07:03:51Z no-defun-allowed: Data isn't real, but objects are. For the purpose of avoiding another flamewar, that is a joke, but I'm otherwise dead serious with that statement.
2020-12-03T07:03:53Z zacts: moon-child: I'm not trying to argue lisp vs unix, but I'm just trying to understand this.
2020-12-03T07:04:32Z zacts: moon-child: re: *more* data structure, that sounds cool
2020-12-03T07:05:13Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: data is not well-defined in a vacuum, but can be real under some interpretation.  (I guess maybe that's what you mean by object?)
2020-12-03T07:05:48Z beach: Yes, an object is defined by the operations you can apply to it.
2020-12-03T07:06:22Z zacts: gosh, I've got to learn lisp.
2020-12-03T07:06:29Z zacts: this all sounds pretty neat
2020-12-03T07:07:13Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I mean exactly that. If you know how to interpret it, then you've cut down on the difficulty of {backwards, forwards, cross} -compatibility quite a bit. And I wish some of the people who write up articles translating bare data structures would find that out; but they probably wouldn't have much of a business if they did.
2020-12-03T07:08:44Z moon-child: zacts: this is cs / math; not lisp-specific
2020-12-03T07:08:45Z no-defun-allowed: The problem is then interpreting how those operations correspond to each other, which is also hard, but in my opinion more manageable.
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2020-12-03T07:12:44Z zacts: moon-child: lisp sounds like a more natural medium for learning some of these concepts than C I'm guessing? but good to know.
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2020-12-03T07:13:35Z moon-child: yes
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2020-12-03T07:14:20Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, also b. makes for very stupid "experts" sometimes. Like an article I read where the author thought that Unix was the first operating system written in a high level language, and that Java is the only language where objects aren't represented as hash tables. But I don't think I can really pin that on Unix.
2020-12-03T07:14:35Z moon-child: zacts: good read is _Gödel, Escher, Bach_
2020-12-03T07:15:03Z zacts: moon-child: I've heard of that book before
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2020-12-03T07:18:58Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Yes, the book by Tanenbaum and Bos mentions that, and also that they consider it impossible to use a language with automatic memory management to write an OS.
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2020-12-03T07:20:00Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Oh dear. I was referring to <https://matklad.github.io/2020/09/13/your-language-sucks.html>, which if I may paraphrase the title, "sucks and doesn't matter". But they probably fall for the same stuff at the end of the day.
2020-12-03T07:20:31Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: I'm reminded of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSmkqocn0oQ
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2020-12-03T07:21:54Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I see.
2020-12-03T07:23:59Z zacts: beach: could sicl or closos make use of something like the netbsd rump anykernel to run on existing hw?
2020-12-03T07:24:52Z no-defun-allowed: (For reference for the comment on Java, the paper introducing "maps" in a Self implementation by Ungar, Chambers and Lee was published in 1991, as well as The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, which of course has storage vectors.)
2020-12-03T07:26:01Z beach: zacts: I don't see any reason for that.  The "bare metal" aspect is fairly simple to realize, and not terribly interesting.  The interesting part is the interface between an application and the system, and between applications.
2020-12-03T07:26:26Z zacts: I see
2020-12-03T07:26:42Z beach: zacts: And SICL bootstrapping is just going to generate an executable, for Linux for now, since that's all we have.
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2020-12-03T07:31:01Z zacts: so the "bare metal" aspect would be similar to how adding a new architecture to llvm is just an implementation detail, and it's not the overall system.
2020-12-03T07:34:01Z zacts: my point being, that porting sicl to a particular platform or whatever, would just be a particular implementation detail. it's not what makes the system interesting in itself.
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2020-12-03T07:36:29Z zacts: like it's difficult for me to get out of the kernel mindset I think.
2020-12-03T07:37:50Z zacts: anyway, lots to learn. I'm going to pick up this practical common lisp text for now I think.
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2020-12-03T07:44:02Z beach: zacts: Good luck.  We hang out in #sicl if you have more detailed questions later.
2020-12-03T07:45:18Z phoe: good morning
2020-12-03T07:45:26Z beach: Hello phoe.
2020-12-03T07:45:32Z phoe: hey hi
2020-12-03T07:45:37Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe.
2020-12-03T07:45:37Z treflip: good morning phoe
2020-12-03T07:46:29Z phoe: zacts: you have seen mezzano, right?
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2020-12-03T07:59:51Z zacts: thanks
2020-12-03T07:59:58Z zacts: phoe: not yet
2020-12-03T08:00:13Z adlai: srandon111: loke[m] forgot Clozure CL, an implementation that is quite portable, and has a compiler that runs quickly and produces reasonably fast code
2020-12-03T08:00:30Z phoe: zacts: you should
2020-12-03T08:00:47Z phoe: it's a Common Lisp OS that runs on bare metal
2020-12-03T08:01:01Z adlai usually recommends CCL for beginners because the compiler is fast enough that, for interactive programming at the repl, there is pretty much no noticeable compilation delay
2020-12-03T08:01:03Z phoe: it has enough sophistication to run IRC, Quake, and Doom
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2020-12-03T08:01:51Z adlai: I thought running IRC betrayed a lack of sophistication? :P
2020-12-03T08:02:08Z phoe: it betrays the fact that it has a working network stack
2020-12-03T08:02:16Z phoe: which is already non-trivial
2020-12-03T08:02:40Z zacts: I'll check it out thanks
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2020-12-03T08:09:21Z srandon111: adlai, thanks Sir/Ma'am
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2020-12-03T08:18:24Z adlai: it is amazing how an unexpected escalation of formality can be a wet blanket to one's hubris, although that is off-topic.
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2020-12-03T08:20:43Z adlai: zacts: allow me to add an anti-recommedation for Godel, Escher, Bach, unless you are also a fan of classical music, douglas hofstatder, or even both
2020-12-03T08:21:44Z adlai is a fan of Hafstadter's works -- that is how he first read about lisp! -- although there are excerpts from the book that give you an idea of the whole thing while leaving you precious hours free for, I dunno, reading CLHS?
2020-12-03T08:22:16Z moon-child: adlai: hubris can always a problem.  That doesn't devalue formalism
2020-12-03T08:22:23Z Lycurgus: dumbass video games: lack of sophistication, human conversational agent, the opposite of that
2020-12-03T08:22:52Z Lycurgus: *human-interfacing
2020-12-03T08:23:26Z adlai: apparently that book is considered a "cult book", similar to cult movies, where people tap out early if they are not hooked; which is a shame, since it is written as a book that expects the reader to read the entire thing, as opposed to e.g. a standards document.
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2020-12-03T08:25:03Z Lycurgus: the stuff with analogies (hofstadter) is more amenable to practical lisp usage
2020-12-03T08:26:47Z ck_: his book of essays (Metamagical Themas) is more suited if you don't want a cover-to-cover experience. There's also more usage of lisp in it.
2020-12-03T08:27:13Z adlai had just taken an entire semester of java, before reading Metamagical Themas over the summer and encountering lisp. life could have taken a severely different turn!
2020-12-03T08:27:27Z ck_: Oh look, it's on the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/MetamagicalThemas . I should donate extra to them this year.
2020-12-03T08:27:44Z flip214: I quite liked GEB... it's on my technical top-10 list, along with "Visual Display of Quantitative Information"
2020-12-03T08:27:44Z ck_: adlai: :)
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2020-12-03T08:27:53Z no-defun-allowed: adlai: In my experience, the reverse is more painful.
2020-12-03T08:28:52Z flip214: ck_: " The item is not available due to issues with the item's content. " when trying to download an ebook?
2020-12-03T08:29:52Z adlai: no-defun-allowed: that's understandable; one of the few long conversations I had irl about cl ended with the other person (also a programmer) concluding that learning such a powerful language is a bad life decision, because then most other encounters with human technology will consist of disappointment
2020-12-03T08:30:27Z ck_: flip214: ok?
2020-12-03T08:30:32Z no-defun-allowed: Well, sure, that describes it. And that you also may have standards for the presentation of the course that also are not met.
2020-12-03T08:30:45Z adlai: although, he seemed to be at the end of his active programming career, and thus able to make such a statement.
2020-12-03T08:31:23Z beach: adlai: Wow, that's a very strange (to me) attitude.  But I guess it is common.
2020-12-03T08:31:58Z flip214: but thanks for the tip
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2020-12-03T08:32:53Z flip214: beach: the attitude is strange - but the content is (sadly) correct
2020-12-03T08:33:43Z flip214: OTOH, especially in IT there's _so_much_ disappointment when dealing with other people's stuff...  my own stuff I expect to break (or at least can guess when), but commercial software should behave better
2020-12-03T08:33:51Z ck_: I've watched a few older talks this year, one Keynote by Guy Steele (From 2013 I believe?) where he implores "can we please get tail calls in JDK 9?"
2020-12-03T08:34:18Z ck_: I guess it gets better only very slowly in general
2020-12-03T08:34:40Z ck_: no Winning Big is around the corner yet
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2020-12-03T08:36:28Z Lycurgus: https://github.com/fargonauts there is a lisp version but the main deal is pythong apparently
2020-12-03T08:38:11Z moon-child: ck_: I have found it an endless source of hilarity that guy sat on the design comittees for common lisp, scheme, java, and c
2020-12-03T08:38:19Z Lycurgus: the reason people burn out and have negative attitudes about software development (in comparison with other professionals fields)
2020-12-03T08:38:28Z Lycurgus: is the capitalism
2020-12-03T08:38:42Z adlai: beach: I think it is a common attitude among those who are seeking careers working as fungible programmers in a variety of enterprises, as opposed to those for whom 'career as programmer' could plausibly include a decade working alone, another decade doing academic research, etc
2020-12-03T08:38:44Z no-defun-allowed: adlai: Then make them not disappointing. How to do that is up to you, but you are likely as capable as as your colleagues to make the field better, and you may have a better idea of what would be better.
2020-12-03T08:40:05Z Lycurgus: which mode of society/production, determines the greater and lesser snake pits of industry/academe
2020-12-03T08:40:08Z no-defun-allowed: adlai: Be practical, do the impossible!
2020-12-03T08:40:46Z Lycurgus: under the capitalism pretty much everything is impossible
2020-12-03T08:40:59Z Lycurgus: compared to what could be done
2020-12-03T08:41:10Z Lycurgus: from first principles
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2020-12-03T08:41:46Z adlai: no-defun-allowed: here's one impossible... I wish all the hi-tech managers got together and decided on programming practices that kept their employees as fungible cogs, without limiting the choice of programming language
2020-12-03T08:41:47Z no-defun-allowed: I won't say what exactly, but "just" invalidate the assumptions that your statement has.
2020-12-03T08:41:55Z Lycurgus: there's no money for/in it closes stuff off effectively
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2020-12-03T08:42:51Z no-defun-allowed: .-.
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2020-12-03T08:46:01Z beach: adlai: Makes sense.
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2020-12-03T08:46:14Z adlai: in Earth, we've had a century of capitalism, communism, and hegelism, and it has given us Common Lisp, Racket, and most importantly, Stalin; whereas in the other planets, they've had five billion years of peace love and no complaints, and what do they have to show for themselves? not even a cuckoo clock, just a bunch of epicycles.
2020-12-03T08:46:57Z loke[m]: adlai: Can't argue with logic.
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2020-12-03T08:49:14Z Lycurgus: oh right, Guy Stalin, he invented common lisp didn e?
2020-12-03T08:49:26Z zacts: stalin is also a scheme interpreter
2020-12-03T08:50:27Z phoe: "in Earth, we've had a century of capitalism, communism, and hegelism, and it has given us Common Lisp, Racket, and most importantly, Stalin"
2020-12-03T08:51:24Z adlai: 'stalin' is a scheme ~compiler~, not interpreter, supposedly one that reached new heights of whole-program optimization.
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2020-12-03T08:51:56Z no-defun-allowed: damn I guess I have to use Racket now
2020-12-03T08:52:22Z zacts: s/interpreter/compiler/
2020-12-03T08:52:37Z Lycurgus: the cl implementation of copycat does appear to be complete and reasonably current
2020-12-03T08:52:40Z adlai: is there a (require 'cl) for Racket, similar to what emacs has?
2020-12-03T08:52:53Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: eh, don't make a racket about it
2020-12-03T08:53:14Z no-defun-allowed: moon-child: Good point.
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2020-12-03T08:55:34Z adlai: back to more productive topics, what is the best overview of the new package naming conventions?
2020-12-03T08:56:01Z adlai keeps seeing references to [a] package-local nickname library[ies], and never bothered studying this
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2020-12-03T08:58:23Z adlai reads phoe's article https://gist.github.com/phoe/2b63f33a2a4727a437403eceb7a6b4a3
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2020-12-03T09:00:22Z adlai: ... although there is also local-package-aliases, and phoe's article does not appear to mention this library: https://quickref.common-lisp.net/local-package-aliases.html
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2020-12-03T09:01:45Z no-defun-allowed: Package local nicknames are probably better implemented and more used.
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2020-12-03T09:02:08Z adlai repeats that the underlying emphasis should be on the naming convention for the long verbose detailed unambiguous name, and wonders whether there are alternatives to pretending that the domain-name system is sane
2020-12-03T09:03:21Z moon-child: I appreciate the nested footnote
2020-12-03T09:03:37Z phoe: adlai: (defpackage #:my-package (:use #:cl) (:local-nicknames (#:a #:alexandria)))
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2020-12-03T09:04:05Z adlai: off the top of my head, the packages all use either reversed domain names (e.g. com.symbolics.information.much.too ), or a long library name as prefix and hope the name is uncommon enough to avoid collision.
2020-12-03T09:04:08Z phoe: (in-package #:my-package) (a:plist-alist '(:foo 1 :bar 2))
2020-12-03T09:04:15Z phoe: adlai: correct
2020-12-03T09:04:25Z phoe: and these are correctable using package local nicknames
2020-12-03T09:05:05Z phoe: because you can use a:alist-plist instead of net.common-lisp.alexandrias.completely.imaginary.package.name:alist-plist
2020-12-03T09:05:17Z adlai: phoe: your gist is short, lemme finish reading it please :)
2020-12-03T09:05:22Z phoe: OK
2020-12-03T09:05:32Z phoe: (I need to make a second version of it that it less of a rant and more of a useful article)
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2020-12-03T09:12:08Z adlai: easy, just delete everything except for footnote four.
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2020-12-03T09:17:30Z adlai: ... wonderful, I learn now that ultralisp includes scalpl, just after its removal from quicklisp
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2020-12-03T09:18:19Z adlai does not mind people acting as travis-ci backups; it is almost a compliment, although... not necessarily a good idea.
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2020-12-03T09:22:58Z flip214: phoe: package-local nicknames mean that using INTERN at runtime (even indirectly, eg. when parsing JSON, YAML, etc.!) needs to take *PACKAGE* into account, right?
2020-12-03T09:23:18Z flip214: Well, as long as these intern keys just into KEYWORD, it might not matter that much
2020-12-03T09:23:37Z flip214: ah, but messagepack has a symbol encoding, IIRC
2020-12-03T09:24:37Z phoe: flip214: yes
2020-12-03T09:25:16Z phoe: all code that depends on the runtime value of *PACKAGE* is affected by PLNs
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2020-12-03T09:31:48Z adlai is amazed that phoe has the patience to answer so many of the reddit comments on the article!
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2020-12-03T09:48:43Z adlai: some of the behavior standardized as undefined in clhs 2.3.5 could be useful for concisely naming common mathematical objects according to small integers
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2020-12-03T09:48:47Z adlai: clhs 2.3.5
2020-12-03T09:48:47Z specbot: Valid Patterns for Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ce.htm
2020-12-03T09:50:21Z adlai even at one point had a teacher who used that notation for fractions; in this case, the mathematical objects are, e.g., roots of unity as equivalence classes, rather than members of the field of complex numbers
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2020-12-03T12:39:12Z jmercouris: is this user: https://github.com/7c6f434c on this channel?
2020-12-03T12:39:30Z jmercouris: I feel like he is, I just can't remember his username
2020-12-03T12:40:19Z jackdaniel: he doesn't seem to be online right now, but indeed he joins irc often
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2020-12-03T12:40:47Z jackdaniel: I don't remember exact nick, but it is derived from his name (available on the github page)
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2020-12-03T12:43:51Z phoe: MichaelRaskin
2020-12-03T12:44:01Z phoe: he tends to be online, yes; you could leave him a memo
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2020-12-03T13:09:19Z jmercouris: OK, thanks, I will leave a memo with minion
2020-12-03T13:09:55Z jmercouris: minion: memo for MichaelRaskin can you package Calispel for NixOS?
2020-12-03T13:09:58Z minion: NixOS: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
2020-12-03T13:10:03Z jmercouris: ???
2020-12-03T13:10:10Z jmercouris: is that not the right syntax?
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2020-12-03T13:10:55Z jmercouris: minion: memo for MichaelRaskin: can you package Calispel for NixOS?
2020-12-03T13:10:55Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell MichaelRaskin when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-12-03T13:11:20Z jackdaniel: minion: say "perhaps"
2020-12-03T13:11:20Z minion: say "perhaps": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/say%20\"perhaps\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 28..
2020-12-03T13:12:09Z jmercouris: we need to add a 'faith' command like the emacs bot
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2020-12-03T13:12:17Z jmercouris: for when we despair
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2020-12-03T13:23:11Z adlai: why would anyone get angry at Nix? it is a strict improvement over the predecessor posix distros...
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2020-12-03T13:24:20Z lucasb: Hello. I think something messed the layout of planet.lisp.org, everything is in italics, inside <i></i> tags, after the middle of first post.
2020-12-03T13:25:04Z adlai: jmercouris: there's a joke here somewhere, about how only Japanese Lisp programmers have faith
2020-12-03T13:25:21Z jmercouris: I'm not sure I get the joke
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2020-12-03T13:26:16Z adlai is not sufficiently versed in Japanese culture to describe the concept precisely, but essentially, the word "face" has a meaning there, beyond the literal one.
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2020-12-03T13:26:45Z jmercouris: hai
2020-12-03T13:27:30Z adlai: it is probably closer to the idiomatic usage of 'spine', in English, than to nebulous concepts such as prestige and reputation.
2020-12-03T13:27:53Z jmercouris: hai, hai
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2020-12-03T20:55:39Z Krystof: receiving notifications from minion since... what, 2002?
2020-12-03T20:56:56Z jackdaniel: minion: tell something
2020-12-03T20:56:57Z minion: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
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2020-12-03T21:07:03Z lotuseater: What do you do if someone asks you what you can use Lisp for in everyday life?
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2020-12-03T21:08:50Z no-defun-allowed: Probably pretend I didn't hear the question. Or say, "most things you would do in everyday life, and then some more".
2020-12-03T21:09:39Z lotuseater: Yes it is very exhausting to have to justify yourself.
2020-12-03T21:10:23Z lotuseater: I told him beside other stuff CL is more general purpose as C/C++ and not just domain specific like those :D
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2020-12-03T21:19:00Z Xach: darn it
2020-12-03T21:23:21Z lotuseater: Xach: what's wrong?
2020-12-03T21:25:38Z lotuseater: no-defun-allowed: now he said "I have also done code generation in other languages. I don't really see why it is necessary to use a self-modifying language." *sigh*
2020-12-03T21:25:39Z lotuseater:  
2020-12-03T21:26:36Z Xach: lotuseater: planet lisp html foulup
2020-12-03T21:27:06Z Xach: it generally hasn't fouled up too bad in the past, and it's a 20-year-old python program doing the HTML bit.
2020-12-03T21:27:34Z lotuseater: oh
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2020-12-03T21:32:56Z lotuseater: haven't been on this site so much yet, but seems to contain a big bunch of infos
2020-12-03T21:35:13Z Xach: it had more infos in 2002 when it started, but it still has some infos in 2020
2020-12-03T21:35:59Z mfiano: Xach: looks like the timestamp is way off
2020-12-03T21:36:17Z mfiano: or rather than "x hours ago"
2020-12-03T21:36:24Z lotuseater: hm okay I wish I would have none lisp in 2002 :)
2020-12-03T21:36:34Z mfiano: s/than/the/
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2020-12-03T21:43:22Z lotuseater: s/none/known o_O
2020-12-03T21:43:30Z Xach: I should just take that out.
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2020-12-03T21:46:57Z mfiano: "days ago" seems correct anyway. Somehow it is adding a day to hour calculation or something
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2020-12-03T21:48:28Z mfiano: Actually 16 hours. Odd
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2020-12-03T22:57:30Z lotuseater: Are you aware of newer resources on how to do "real" AI stuff with CL?
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2020-12-03T23:59:08Z White_Flame: lotuseater: define "real"
2020-12-03T23:59:41Z no-defun-allowed: It's AI until it begins to work.
2020-12-04T00:05:09Z lotuseater: White_Flame: what is called like that, for example expert systems
2020-12-04T00:05:27Z phoe: White_Flame: (and number (not complex))
2020-12-04T00:05:54Z lotuseater: phoe: very nice :D
2020-12-04T00:06:04Z White_Flame: well, for symbolic AI, there's not a lot of newer resources in general
2020-12-04T00:06:30Z lotuseater: yeah hm i see
2020-12-04T00:06:53Z lotuseater: I would really like to know how tools like Cyc work.
2020-12-04T00:06:58Z White_Flame: I got really annoyed with powerloom, because it's like cyc in that they invented their own version of lisp tied to C++/Java semantics, and export a version to CL which is overall pretty janky
2020-12-04T00:07:15Z White_Flame: Cyc is a mudball of legacy and per-customer hacks
2020-12-04T00:07:51Z White_Flame: but, it's that hackishness that gives it its capabilities
2020-12-04T00:07:52Z lotuseater: yes on the job site stands "you'll walk into 35 years of code"
2020-12-04T00:08:22Z White_Flame: basically, it's all about indexing
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2020-12-04T00:09:05Z lotuseater: hm okay. but the talks of Douglas Lenat are nice. i first read about him in Goedel Escher Bach
2020-12-04T00:09:05Z White_Flame: all of your logic statements are semantically peers, but the indexer treats them differently
2020-12-04T00:09:20Z White_Flame: then once you have basic logic running, you define tools in logic to help you expand
2020-12-04T00:09:26Z White_Flame: so you leave lisp pretty quickly
2020-12-04T00:09:38Z White_Flame: until you need more performance
2020-12-04T00:09:54Z lotuseater: yeah hm but they're organized object oriented, right?
2020-12-04T00:09:57Z White_Flame: and then you start stirring the implementation pot more to get it to run your logic faster
2020-12-04T00:10:16Z White_Flame: no, not really
2020-12-04T00:10:25Z White_Flame: but that just depends on preference
2020-12-04T00:10:32Z lotuseater: "But how can this parentheses stuff be fast at all?" :D
2020-12-04T00:10:42Z White_Flame: it's more data-oriented than object-oriented
2020-12-04T00:10:48Z lotuseater: White_Flame: okay i thought so from reading
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2020-12-04T00:11:26Z White_Flame: a good place to start would be PAIP, and building prolog & stuff that it does
2020-12-04T00:11:53Z White_Flame: prolog-in-lisp
2020-12-04T00:11:58Z lotuseater: yes i worked through some chapters
2020-12-04T00:12:22Z White_Flame: and then once you know that stuff, you can consider caching, forward chaining, and open world implications
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2020-12-04T00:12:34Z White_Flame: and then you basically have the same tech as cyc
2020-12-04T00:12:50Z White_Flame: then, you have to figure out how to use that substrate well, which is the second 90% of the problem
2020-12-04T00:12:56Z lotuseater: this CLIPS (and not CLISP) expert system is also widely used
2020-12-04T00:13:04Z White_Flame: yep, I've used it
2020-12-04T00:13:15Z White_Flame: that's purely forward chaining rete, which has some real logical limitations
2020-12-04T00:13:36Z lotuseater: oh cool, i also know one who has a job with it
2020-12-04T00:13:39Z White_Flame: eg, multiple firings if some inference result happens to be true from multiple paths
2020-12-04T00:13:49Z White_Flame: huh, where at?
2020-12-04T00:14:00Z lotuseater: can you explain?
2020-12-04T00:14:15Z lotuseater: in Essen here in Germany, I'm living near by
2020-12-04T00:14:32Z White_Flame: when (a ?foo) then do-something
2020-12-04T00:14:43Z lotuseater: but nobody approx the hole country does lisp stuff or functional programming
2020-12-04T00:14:49Z White_Flame: (a 3) can become true multiple times, and your do-something will fire multiple times
2020-12-04T00:14:49Z lotuseater: ah okay
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2020-12-04T00:15:08Z White_Flame: also, if you have the same shape both logically and non-logically asserted, the non-logical retraction will destroy the fact even though it still has logical support
2020-12-04T00:15:34Z White_Flame: it's not a very general logic system, but it's a good programming system
2020-12-04T00:15:39Z lotuseater: yes something like that someone said about cyc
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2020-12-04T00:15:51Z White_Flame: no, cyc should handle things like that just fine
2020-12-04T00:16:02Z lotuseater: hmm
2020-12-04T00:16:25Z White_Flame: cyc is also one of the only systems I've seen that can transparently spill large fact bases to disk, which is a nice-to-have
2020-12-04T00:16:58Z lotuseater: so you tried it in practice?
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2020-12-04T00:17:14Z White_Flame: I haven't learned enough about how to use cyc to use it effectively.  yet.
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2020-12-04T00:18:00Z no-defun-allowed: How much stuff can Clyc do?
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2020-12-04T00:18:36Z lotuseater: I think over and over again I'm anyway not intelligent enough to understand that all, let alone doing anything myself.
2020-12-04T00:19:40Z lotuseater: no-defun-allowed: from what i've seen it can do much topics, also something like inference the path what you have for a dicease from symptoms
2020-12-04T00:19:52Z no-defun-allowed: Clyc is White_Flame's implementation(?) of Cyc.
2020-12-04T00:19:59Z lotuseater: oh sorry :D
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2020-12-04T00:25:14Z White_Flame: they released OpenCyc in the past, as well as a component of LarKC
2020-12-04T00:26:09Z White_Flame: they released OpenCyc in the past, as well as a component of LarKC
2020-12-04T00:26:11Z White_Flame: so it's free to fiddle with
2020-12-04T00:26:16Z White_Flame: it just doesn't come with their large knowledgebases
2020-12-04T00:26:18Z White_Flame: (sorry, got disconnected)
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2020-12-04T00:35:14Z lotuseater: no problem, thx
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2020-12-04T00:58:22Z jeosol: White_Flame: while on cyc, are you aware of powerlooms (?) I think it's called out of the group in USC
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2020-12-04T00:59:01Z White_Flame: I was fiddling with it last week or so
2020-12-04T00:59:02Z White_Flame: the documentation is pretty lacking
2020-12-04T00:59:05Z jeosol: Everytime I had discussion regarding Cyc, even a few weeks ago, someone said Doug Lenat's approach wasn't correct.
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2020-12-04T00:59:18Z White_Flame: I was trying to figure out how to trigger lisp from goes-true-daemon facts
2020-12-04T00:59:44Z jeosol: I actually installed it and tried to evaluate it to test a small reasoning I wanted to build.
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2020-12-04T01:00:12Z White_Flame: I'm evaluating stuff for big reasoning projects
2020-12-04T01:00:15Z jeosol: aah ok. I am not expert, as you aware, I am in the other logicmoo channel and got info from aindilis and dmiles - he told me about looms
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2020-12-04T01:00:39Z jeosol: s/not/no
2020-12-04T01:01:00Z White_Flame: it has multiple layers, and it's difficult to know what you can call from where
2020-12-04T01:01:08Z White_Flame: for its basic reasoning purposes it should be fine
2020-12-04T01:02:12Z jeosol: my interest was understanding how uncertainty in inputs gets propagated into outputs. I did look into mycin
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2020-12-04T01:36:04Z Kabriel: When I go to quicklisp.org and search for libraries, it goes to website "bye common lispers". What happened? Is there an alternative?
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2020-12-04T01:42:12Z Xach: o lord
2020-12-04T01:42:16Z Xach: i still have to update that
2020-12-04T01:42:35Z Xach: Kabriel: i link a site called quickdocs.org that is no longer active
2020-12-04T01:42:55Z Xach: argh
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2020-12-04T02:11:49Z dbotton: Is there a way using lparallel to submit a task where the result will be discarded (ie just like a simple make-thread.but will use one of the lparallel worker threads)
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2020-12-04T02:21:30Z mfiano: Don't get the result off of the channel
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2020-12-04T02:21:55Z dbotton: Won’t that collect garbage?
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2020-12-04T02:25:00Z thefunc5: So where do i go for Common Lisp language documentation if Quickdocs is now gone?
2020-12-04T02:25:57Z moon-child: hyperspec?
2020-12-04T02:26:04Z thefunc5: having dabbled in Elixir, i was spoiled by Hexdocs. Is there something like that for Common Lisp?
2020-12-04T02:26:10Z mfiano: Quickdocs didn't have language docs.
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2020-12-04T02:26:12Z thefunc5: Is there a better way to navigate Hyperspec?
2020-12-04T02:27:16Z thefunc5: feels...cludgy?
2020-12-04T02:27:18Z mfiano: You can use the builtin function #'documentation, or browse any documentation in the repository manually.
2020-12-04T02:28:04Z markasoftware: thefunc5: slime has C-c C-d h
2020-12-04T02:28:39Z thefunc5: markasoftware: thx! that def helps!
2020-12-04T02:28:51Z thefunc5: mfiano: still VERY new...how do i call that?
2020-12-04T02:29:03Z markasoftware: do you have slime installed in emacs?
2020-12-04T02:29:08Z mfiano: clhs documentation
2020-12-04T02:29:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2020-12-04T02:29:11Z thefunc5: portacle
2020-12-04T02:29:40Z markasoftware: so put your cursor over a function in lisp
2020-12-04T02:29:55Z markasoftware: then press Ctrl-c, then Ctrl-d, then h
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2020-12-04T02:32:15Z thefunc5: yeah thats pretty sweet....
2020-12-04T02:32:26Z thefunc5: and if im not over one it prompts for one? neat!
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2020-12-04T02:32:50Z thefunc5: awe snap and it even has tab completion....
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2020-12-04T02:36:40Z thefunc5: thx for the guidance everyone :)
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2020-12-04T04:28:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-12-04T04:28:45Z moon-child: morning beach
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2020-12-04T04:46:49Z lotuseater: Good morning.
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2020-12-04T06:51:14Z aaaaaa: lotuseater: good
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2020-12-04T08:02:12Z srandon111: folks, how difficult it is with SBCL to cross compile my app to different platforms from linux ?
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2020-12-04T08:28:12Z beach: srandon111: You may want to ask in #sbcl.
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2020-12-04T13:33:13Z ldb: good evening
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2020-12-04T13:36:42Z phoe: hello
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2020-12-04T15:05:12Z srandon111: good evening
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2020-12-04T15:07:51Z beach: Hello srandon111.
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2020-12-04T16:16:14Z jmercouris: anyone have experience with CLPM?
2020-12-04T16:16:22Z jmercouris: source: https://www.clpm.dev/
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2020-12-04T16:19:26Z asarch: One stupid question: how do you do Test-Driven Development in Common Lisp?
2020-12-04T16:19:50Z jmercouris: You write a test, and then you try to pass the test
2020-12-04T16:19:53Z jmercouris: same as any other language
2020-12-04T16:20:01Z jmercouris: you can use ASDF to run your test suites
2020-12-04T16:20:09Z jmercouris: you can use Prove, or Rove, or FiveAM or anything you like
2020-12-04T16:20:17Z jmercouris: TDD is fundamentally the same everywhere, specify an API
2020-12-04T16:20:23Z jmercouris: and keep programming until you fulfill the API
2020-12-04T16:20:33Z jmercouris: if the API is sufficiently specified in the tests, then you are good
2020-12-04T16:20:45Z jmercouris: that said, I do not reccomend TDD, it is a idea that sounds good, but doesn't work well in practice
2020-12-04T16:20:49Z jmercouris: makes for cool demos though
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2020-12-04T16:22:21Z asarch: What should I do instead of TDD, I mean, what do professionals do in this case?
2020-12-04T16:22:33Z jeosol: jmercouris: you sound like an evangelist, only to back way ...
2020-12-04T16:22:57Z jmercouris: asarch: that's subject to your organization
2020-12-04T16:22:59Z jmercouris: jeosol: :-D
2020-12-04T16:23:14Z asarch: I see
2020-12-04T16:23:16Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-12-04T16:23:24Z asarch: Thank you very much jmercouris :-)
2020-12-04T16:23:29Z jmercouris: no problem!
2020-12-04T16:23:49Z jeosol: asarch: If you are just starting you, you probably don't worry to too much about test, but if your team is in deployment mode and you are releasing versions to production,then you'd worry that things in the release branch pass tests, for example
2020-12-04T16:24:07Z phoe: asarch: do TDD the Lisp way
2020-12-04T16:24:15Z asarch: How?
2020-12-04T16:24:16Z jmercouris: phoe: you mean the REPL?
2020-12-04T16:24:27Z phoe: test your object in the REPL, then copypaste your REPL forms into test files
2020-12-04T16:24:34Z jmercouris: that's basically what I do
2020-12-04T16:24:35Z phoe: along with the expected values
2020-12-04T16:24:45Z jmercouris: I wish there was a way to remember all forms and copy them into a file automatically or something
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2020-12-04T16:25:01Z phoe: clhs dribble
2020-12-04T16:25:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dribbl.htm
2020-12-04T16:25:02Z phoe: :D
2020-12-04T16:25:10Z jmercouris: what I will often do is just draft it into a file and then C-c C-c over and over again until it works
2020-12-04T16:25:37Z jmercouris: phoe: well, not exactly
2020-12-04T16:25:43Z jmercouris: phoe: I didn't mean *all* forms :-D
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2020-12-04T16:27:28Z jackdaniel: dribble has also a "meaningful-forms-only" mode, it is invoked like (dribble :meanigfull-p (lambda (form) (decide-whether-form-is-meaningful form)))
2020-12-04T16:27:57Z jackdaniel: or, shortly, (dribble :meaninfull-p #'decide-whether-form-is-meaningful)
2020-12-04T16:28:18Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: you got me for a second I even opened up the CLHS
2020-12-04T16:28:42Z jmercouris: I thought maybe it would be some simple predicate that decides whether a form is 'meaningful' or not lol
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2020-12-04T16:40:29Z phoe: jmercouris: oh
2020-12-04T16:40:45Z phoe: I think that copypasting some forms into a separate buffer and going C-c C-c or C-c C-k on it is the best way forward, then
2020-12-04T16:40:51Z phoe: and making frequent git commits so the file history is remembered.
2020-12-04T16:40:56Z jmercouris: hai
2020-12-04T16:41:07Z jmercouris: I wonder though, is there a better way...
2020-12-04T16:41:12Z jmercouris: if we could reimagine things, what would we do?
2020-12-04T16:41:25Z jmercouris: what I always wanted was to be able to iterate on some form in the repl and say something like save function XYZ
2020-12-04T16:41:28Z jmercouris: if I defun'd it nicely
2020-12-04T16:42:15Z jmercouris: so let's say I'm in the repl and I (defun func (xyz) ..) and I really like it
2020-12-04T16:42:20Z jmercouris: if only there was a simple command
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2020-12-04T16:42:33Z jmercouris: like update-or-save-function and I could type func and it would do it
2020-12-04T16:42:38Z jmercouris: that, that would be cool
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2020-12-04T16:45:06Z francogrex: Hi, is everyone ok with swig removing lisp support (cffi namely)? this seems harsh on the lisp community. I don't like it
2020-12-04T16:45:09Z random-nick: what's the default test for MEMBER? EQUAL or EQL?
2020-12-04T16:45:21Z Bike: default tests are almost always EQL.
2020-12-04T16:45:29Z Bike: including for member
2020-12-04T16:45:31Z jmercouris: what Bike said
2020-12-04T16:45:34Z random-nick: thank you
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2020-12-04T16:46:38Z jmercouris: francogrex: I don't use Swig, but I am not OK with that
2020-12-04T16:47:47Z Bike: didn't they drop it because the support was unmaintained and didn't work?
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2020-12-04T16:51:27Z jmercouris: presumably
2020-12-04T16:51:32Z jmercouris: I can still be salty about it :-D
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2020-12-04T17:30:11Z semz: Aren't there lisp-side solutions that do something similar to swig?
2020-12-04T17:31:44Z semz: I suppose it wouldn't be able to reuse Swig-style interface definitions
2020-12-04T17:33:51Z edgar-rft: Lisp loves being autistic, it doesn't want to talk to the outside world.
2020-12-04T17:35:17Z semz: can you blame it? :-)
2020-12-04T17:36:36Z francogrex: Bike: yes that's what they say, the support was probably unmaintained, but it didn't didn't work! It was working ok. well there are still old releases
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2020-12-04T17:37:03Z francogrex: semz: not that I am aware of (other sol)
2020-12-04T17:37:54Z ebrasca: francogrex: What is swig?
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2020-12-04T17:40:30Z edgar-rft: ebrasca: -> http://swig.org/exec.html
2020-12-04T17:44:18Z ebrasca: francogrex: I think we have cl-cffi.
2020-12-04T17:45:53Z francogrex: ebrasca: if you are talking about cffi, it is not the same as swig. swig used to support cffi, and clisp ffi etc.. now stopped
2020-12-04T17:46:47Z francogrex: but I may be wrong, maybe there is a possibility that cffi generates binding code for itself
2020-12-04T17:47:04Z francogrex: again, I am not aware of such capability though
2020-12-04T17:47:38Z _death: there's autowrap
2020-12-04T17:47:57Z phoe: ^
2020-12-04T17:48:09Z phoe: there's cl-autowrap and claw, with the latter being more intricate
2020-12-04T17:48:19Z phoe: borodust even had some success wrapping C++ with it
2020-12-04T17:48:36Z ebrasca: You can call functions with cl-cffi from C.
2020-12-04T17:49:25Z francogrex: ebrasca: yes but we are not really talking about that specifically
2020-12-04T17:49:42Z francogrex: phoe: ok I'll look it up
2020-12-04T17:50:37Z francogrex: I probably should have said generate wrapping (instead of binding) to be clear
2020-12-04T17:50:52Z phoe: oh! then cl-autowrap and claw should do just what you are thinking of
2020-12-04T17:51:03Z phoe: I have a small project that uses the former if you want to look at it
2020-12-04T17:54:43Z francogrex: phoe: yes please (although you mentioned that claw would be better?)
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2020-12-04T18:04:59Z phoe: don't know if better
2020-12-04T18:05:19Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/cl-lzma/blob/master/cl-lzma.lisp
2020-12-04T18:05:22Z phoe: that's the whole project
2020-12-04T18:05:35Z phoe: it includes a foreign library, autowrap section, and lisp API, and some tests too
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2020-12-04T18:07:36Z pfdietz: asarch: TDD in Lisp goes way back.    https://www.merl.com/publications/docs/TR91-04.pdf
2020-12-04T18:07:56Z francogrex: phoe: thanks!
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2020-12-04T18:10:28Z borodust: :claw is different rather than better
2020-12-04T18:10:45Z borodust: but also worse, cuz it doesnt have any dics
2020-12-04T18:10:53Z borodust: err, docs
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2020-12-04T18:11:32Z borodust: and god forbid you to look into sources of either one
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2020-12-04T18:13:32Z borodust: on the other hand, i wrap c++ stuff with it ;p
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2020-12-04T18:31:21Z pyc: Do you use paredit while working with Emacs + SLIME + SBCL?
2020-12-04T18:32:49Z phoe: smartparens
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2020-12-04T18:49:34Z pyc: Is there a SLIME command to evaluate the current expression? The C-x C-e evaluates the expression before the cursor and C-M-x evaluates the top-level form. Is there something to evaluate the entire current expression regardless of where the cursor is within the current expression?
2020-12-04T18:54:36Z semz: What does current expression mean here
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2020-12-04T19:02:59Z ane: pyc: at least SLY has eval-region
2020-12-04T19:03:16Z ane: don't know if SLIME has it
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2020-12-04T19:17:55Z pyc: semz: If I have an expression (+ (+ 1 2) 3) and the cursor is on '2', then I want only (+ 1 2) to be evaluated. Vim + Slimv has a command ,e does this. Wondering if SLIME has something for it.
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2020-12-04T19:20:02Z Bike: is 2 not its own expression?
2020-12-04T19:21:57Z phoe: is, it evaluates to 2
2020-12-04T19:22:09Z phoe: you might want to put your cursor on a parenthesis
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2020-12-04T19:28:16Z asarch: Thank you pfdietz!
2020-12-04T19:28:36Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2020-12-04T19:37:07Z semz: pyc: I'm not aware of an explicit command, though ) C-x C-e will have the same effect modulo changing your cursor position at least. For all I know, that might be enough for you.
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2020-12-04T19:57:12Z ane: pyc: with paredit you can use C-M-n (paredit-forward-up) to jump after to the nearest surrounding sexp, or, you could install expand-region, use it once to mark the surrounding sexp, and then use eval-region
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2020-12-04T21:01:25Z pfdietz: asarch:  Lisp continues the tradition of everyone + dog inventing their own test frameworks.   But RT was the first, I think.  It's available in quicklisp.
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2020-12-04T21:02:58Z pfdietz: And you're welcome. :)
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2020-12-04T21:40:32Z bqv: there's a number of repos in quicklisp-projects that refer to bitbucket mercurial repositories
2020-12-04T21:40:38Z bqv: which is an issue, because bitbucket no longer supports mercurial repositories :D
2020-12-04T21:40:55Z bqv: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects
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2020-12-04T21:49:50Z asarch: Thank you very much once again pfdietz :-)
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2020-12-04T22:29:13Z Josh_2: Hey, whats the goto way to handle relative paths? so I need to make all paths relative to the system location?
2020-12-04T22:33:03Z phoe: asdf:system-relative-pathname you mean?
2020-12-04T22:33:10Z phoe: or something else?
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2020-12-04T22:36:24Z mfiano: Just store relative pathnames, and build it up with asdf:system-relative-pathname or POSIX argv0 depending on your environment (the former isn't valid with relocated binaries).
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2020-12-04T22:44:42Z Josh_2: Well the main concern is a dumped image
2020-12-04T22:45:34Z mfiano: Then you'll need to use argv0 or something, since the dumped image's asdf system path is not very useful to prepend to your relative pathnames.
2020-12-04T22:45:52Z Josh_2: Yes thats what I was thinking
2020-12-04T22:46:26Z mfiano: I might have some code laying around
2020-12-04T22:46:37Z Josh_2: If I could take a look that would be a great help
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2020-12-04T22:48:28Z mfiano: Not sure how useful this would be, but: https://github.com/bufferswap/ViralityEngine/blob/f330a2c0f161416dbd943b7fc94be1108e94d0ce/src/core-early/asset.lisp#L103-L111
2020-12-04T22:48:50Z mfiano: =release= is set to T when deploying, otherwise when NIL during development uses asdf
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2020-12-04T22:56:18Z Josh_2: Okay thanks
2020-12-04T22:57:02Z mfiano: This means that you need to build your full pathnames at runtime, of course.
2020-12-04T22:57:27Z mfiano: Storing relative in code for production and development.
2020-12-04T22:58:16Z Josh_2: Yes thats okay
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2020-12-04T23:20:58Z nij: Hi! I'm reading /On Lisp/ upto chapter 8, and feel like to pause a bit to get my hands on writing some lisps. I will use /Land of lisps/ for that. However, I have the impression that the implementations are slightly different (clisp? vs??). Will I meet any trouble coming back to /On Lisp/ after fiddling with clisp for a while?
2020-12-04T23:22:01Z no-defun-allowed: The choice of Common Lisp implementation doesn't matter at all. CLISP isn't really maintained, though.
2020-12-04T23:23:12Z no-defun-allowed: The only difference is that CLISP has a readline-based system, but most people use a Lisp implementation from an editor plugin (such as SLIME or SLIMV) which provides its own completion and editing.
2020-12-04T23:23:26Z nij: Can I use SLIME for CLISP?
2020-12-04T23:25:28Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, but you may as well use a more maintained (and much faster) implementation like SBCL or Clozure.
2020-12-04T23:27:31Z nij: Excited!
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2020-12-04T23:28:55Z edgar-rft: Hi nij! :-) Probably most people here use SBCL, you can use rlwrap (linux package) to get an interactive terminal line editor for SBCL, or Emacs+Slime.
2020-12-04T23:29:44Z edgar-rft: ...and yes, Slime works also with CLISP
2020-12-04T23:29:54Z mason: New book just arrived: https://pasteboard.co/JDqPw60.jpg
2020-12-04T23:30:55Z edgar-rft: "Lisp from Nothing" sounds as if the book could have been written by me :-)
2020-12-04T23:31:16Z mason: This is Nirvana for a Lisp-loving computer history geek.
2020-12-04T23:32:30Z lotuseater: oh cool
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2020-12-04T23:36:30Z daphnis: is there any first format argument to "~,,v:d" that will cancel the effect of the colon?
2020-12-04T23:37:30Z daphnis: (except a very high number)
2020-12-04T23:39:33Z Josh_2: I have added the asdf:perform .. in my .asd in an attempt to have asdf make use sbcl core compression but my executable is 88mb
2020-12-04T23:39:52Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2181#2181
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2020-12-04T23:43:40Z Josh_2: did my message about asdf:make get sent before I dc'd?
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2020-12-04T23:46:24Z thmprover: Question: what equality operator should I use for comparing CLOS objects?
2020-12-04T23:46:34Z thmprover: I thought equalp, but that doesn't work :S
2020-12-04T23:46:47Z Josh_2: if you want to check if It's the exact same object as the other you can use eq
2020-12-04T23:46:51Z Josh_2: that will compare the pointers
2020-12-04T23:47:19Z thmprover: I want to see if they are "structurally isomorphic", not identical objects.
2020-12-04T23:48:55Z mfiano: You cannot
2020-12-04T23:49:31Z mfiano: equalp will do a shallow check for structure-objects, but there is no check for standard-objects.
2020-12-04T23:49:39Z thmprover: So it looks like I'll need to use defstruct, then, instead of defclass (to take advantage of equalp)
2020-12-04T23:49:55Z mfiano: It is not a deep comparison however
2020-12-04T23:50:22Z thmprover: What?
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2020-12-04T23:52:20Z mfiano: Like you're not going to know if some slot of a struct that holds a reference to some other aggregate object has changed state
2020-12-04T23:52:37Z thmprover: Ah, gotchya.
2020-12-04T23:54:14Z mfiano: Nothing is preventing you from using the MOP to do the same for standard-objects, though.
2020-12-04T23:54:32Z mfiano: I would strongly shy away from structs for 99% of use cases.
2020-12-04T23:55:11Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure if comparing objects by comparing their slots is morally the right thing to do, but I can't suggest a better alternative.
2020-12-04T23:55:19Z thmprover: Could I do something like (defmethod equalp ((self my-class) other) ...) ?
2020-12-04T23:55:49Z mfiano: Not unless you shadow CL's equalp
2020-12-04T23:56:12Z mfiano: equalp is not a generic function, and you can't redefine it to be one unless you make a new symbol in a new package
2020-12-04T23:56:18Z no-defun-allowed: Not with the name equalp. But you would generally want (defmethod somewhat-equal (a b) nil) (defmethod somewhat-equal ((a a-class) (b a-class)) ...)
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2020-12-04T23:56:52Z thmprover: You wouldn't do (defmethod somewhat-equal (a b) (equalp a b)) ?
2020-12-04T23:57:03Z no-defun-allowed: Ah, you probably would.
2020-12-04T23:57:16Z no-defun-allowed: But note the multiple dispatch; you're losing out if you call one argument SELF usually.
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2020-12-04T23:59:24Z Josh_2: I have added this to my https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2181#2181 .asd and I'm using asdf:make to build my project, however my image is not being compressed
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2020-12-05T00:00:08Z mfiano thought :compression took a gzip integral level on SBCL at least, and depends on if gzip support was compiled in
2020-12-05T00:00:12Z thmprover: I've tried adding a 'equal?' method for my classes, and it works for half of them, but the other half throws a "EQUAL? is unbound" error
2020-12-05T00:00:13Z Josh_2: hmm
2020-12-05T00:00:18Z Josh_2: mfiano: you may be right I will try
2020-12-05T00:00:46Z Bike: thmprover: that sounds unusual. could you paste the full error and your source code? in some pastebin service
2020-12-05T00:01:10Z thmprover: Is there some limitation with recursion? Like, I'm using classes to form an AST for first-order logic, so they recursively nest.
2020-12-05T00:01:55Z Bike: if you're just recursing it won't handle circular structures, but a tree structure should be fine
2020-12-05T00:02:03Z thmprover: https://github.com/pqnelson/cl-aim/blob/master/src/fol/term.lisp
2020-12-05T00:02:12Z thmprover: (equal? (fn 'f (list  (var 'x)))  (fn 'f (list  (var 'x))))
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2020-12-05T00:03:27Z thmprover: Evaluating it throws errors, but (equal? (var 'x) (var 'x)) returns T, so I'm thinking something is amiss with my '(every equal? (fn-args lhs) (fn-args rhs))' code.
2020-12-05T00:03:39Z Bike: yes, that should be (every #'equal? ...)
2020-12-05T00:04:10Z Bike: there ar eseparate variable and function namespaces.
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2020-12-05T00:04:45Z thmprover: Egads, I completely messed that up, thanks, that fixes everything.
2020-12-05T00:04:47Z Josh_2: Well I don't think asdf:perform is even being called ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2020-12-05T00:09:08Z thmprover: Awesome, that works, thanks.
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2020-12-05T01:34:26Z srandon111: hello beach
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2020-12-05T01:43:33Z Kabriel: Xach: I figured. Do you have a way you look through packages, or do you have them all 1500 memorized!
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2020-12-05T01:47:18Z srandon111: guys what is a good comparison between common lisp and clojure ? i know about lisp-1 and lisp-2 difference but i mean with respect to other things... like from what i understood clojure has a lot of 3rd party libraries, but still relies on the JVM and has big startup times... it's a modern lisp... while common lisp is more ancient but compiles standalone binaries hence we should have a gain in performance... what are other differences?
2020-12-05T01:47:34Z srandon111: i saw that clojure is more functional oriented while lisp does not enforce a style
2020-12-05T01:50:06Z Alfr_ is now known as D_x
2020-12-05T01:50:29Z Josh_2: more ancient?
2020-12-05T01:50:31Z Josh_2: :think:
2020-12-05T01:50:48Z D_x is now known as Alfr
2020-12-05T01:51:12Z no-defun-allowed: What is modern?
2020-12-05T01:51:46Z moon-child: srandon111: performance is a complicated topic, and I don't think that it makes sense to say that cl's is *better*.  Their performance profiles are different
2020-12-05T01:52:17Z no-defun-allowed: As far as I can tell (welcome to #lispcafe philosophy club), the concept of progress is maximising agency. So Common Lisp is much more modern in that regard.
2020-12-05T01:52:42Z no-defun-allowed: ...and most "modern" languages are thus anything but.
2020-12-05T01:53:08Z Josh_2: well It's not #lispcafe so lets not get into that
2020-12-05T01:54:33Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, there are some places where mutable data structures are faster than their immutable counterparts.
2020-12-05T01:55:03Z no-defun-allowed: You also have a very good numeric tower in Common Lisp, including bignums, ratios and complex numbers.
2020-12-05T01:55:06Z Josh_2: the difference is simple, CL = based, Clojure = cringe
2020-12-05T01:55:10Z Josh_2: I can't make it anymore clear
2020-12-05T01:57:17Z no-defun-allowed: (On the other hand, immutable data structures are a bit easier to reason about concurrently, but e.g concurrent hash tables kick butt, and are a bit "transactional" in that you can replace a mapping assuming the value of the previous mapping, so reasoning about them is still very doable.)
2020-12-05T02:00:10Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: It isn't too wrong to assume that when someone mentions a "modern" programming language, they have no idea what they are talking about.
2020-12-05T02:03:06Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, what does it mean to maximise agency???
2020-12-05T02:03:09Z lotuseater: Josh_2: i think timeless is a better adjective
2020-12-05T02:03:20Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, also what is the last update to sbcl ?
2020-12-05T02:04:06Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: SBCL is updated monthly, but the updates theoretically shouldn't matter. Any Common Lisp implementation implements the same language, and several agreed upon extensions.
2020-12-05T02:04:49Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: What I mean by "agency" is that you're capable of doing more things in the language, and to some extent that such things are actually feasible.
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2020-12-05T02:08:39Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, does common lisp has modules/libraries for machine learning or developing neural nets ?
2020-12-05T02:08:55Z srandon111: also what books would you suggest to start ?
2020-12-05T02:09:17Z no-defun-allowed: CLML has quite a few machine learning algorithms.
2020-12-05T02:09:28Z no-defun-allowed: minion: tell srandon111 about Practical Common Lisp
2020-12-05T02:09:28Z minion: srandon111: look at Practical Common Lisp: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-12-05T02:09:52Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, so should i start with practical common lisp? are there other resources i should be aware before starting  ?
2020-12-05T02:10:43Z no-defun-allowed: I think that is usually a good recommendation. But if that becomes difficult, then A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation is also handy.
2020-12-05T02:17:53Z lotuseater: yeah there's a new edition from 2014
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2020-12-05T02:36:45Z srandon111: is it hard to do graphic shit with cl ?
2020-12-05T02:38:57Z lotuseater: srandon111: i think there are several possibilities. what exactly do you mean?
2020-12-05T02:39:29Z srandon111: lotuseater, both 2d and 3d graphics
2020-12-05T02:40:23Z lotuseater: okay then i think on CEPL, there is a hole bunch of videos about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0kWZP9L9Kc
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2020-12-05T02:41:09Z lotuseater: and a good example for 3d game graphics is this Minecraft clone: https://github.com/gregcman/sucle
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2020-12-05T02:44:37Z srandon111: land of lisp does something graphical
2020-12-05T02:44:38Z srandon111: ?
2020-12-05T02:44:42Z srandon111: lotuseater,
2020-12-05T02:44:54Z srandon111: lotuseater, what is CEPL ?
2020-12-05T02:46:19Z lotuseater: CEPL is a library that generates opengl code
2020-12-05T02:46:58Z lotuseater: and yes, land of lisp is wonderful, the graphical stuff is in the terminal
2020-12-05T02:47:38Z lotuseater: the youtube link i gave above is the first video about CEPL from its creator
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2020-12-05T02:49:39Z srandon111: lotuseater, i see he has a lot of playlists they seem very useful
2020-12-05T02:49:47Z srandon111: like pushing pixels with lisp
2020-12-05T02:49:59Z srandon111: lotuseater, what do you mean the graphics is in the terminal ? like ascii ?
2020-12-05T02:50:08Z srandon111: just using ascii chars in the terminal ?
2020-12-05T02:50:34Z lotuseater: yes
2020-12-05T02:51:20Z lotuseater: in land of lisp you have text adventures, ascii in terminal, and generating svgs
2020-12-05T02:51:43Z lotuseater: if you want to make somethin ncurses like there is the croatoan lib :)
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2020-12-05T02:55:54Z srandon111: lotuseater, i don't know what croatoan is
2020-12-05T02:58:08Z srandon111: is there any good example of cli app made in lisp on github?
2020-12-05T02:58:15Z lotuseater: okay then i was not explicit enough. it is the CL lib for doing stuff like with ncurses
2020-12-05T02:58:42Z srandon111: okok
2020-12-05T02:58:44Z srandon111: lotuseater, thanks
2020-12-05T02:58:59Z lotuseater: yes maybe some other people have in mind other stuff
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2020-12-05T03:03:31Z Josh_2: lotuseater: based is often a synonym for timeless
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2020-12-05T03:08:18Z lotuseater: Yes, it should not contradict you either. :)
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2020-12-05T03:13:32Z mister_m: is redefining a struct considered undefined behavior? I know that inside of CLOS there are mechanisms to update object instances, but no such mechanisms exist for struct instances, is that correct?
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2020-12-05T03:15:32Z lotuseater: yes normally i get an error if trying that
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2020-12-05T03:19:19Z Bike: "The consequences of redefining a defstruct structure are undefined. " on clhs defstruct
2020-12-05T03:19:42Z mister_m: that's pretty definitive :)
2020-12-05T03:20:26Z lotuseater: ah okay then specific implementation dependent :) on SBCL it's a SIMPLE-ERROR "incompatible with the current definition"
2020-12-05T03:22:02Z mister_m: if I want to - for example - add a field to the struct when at the repl, how do I do this without making things all wonky
2020-12-05T03:22:13Z Bike: use defclass instead.
2020-12-05T03:22:25Z mister_m: let's say that is not an option
2020-12-05T03:22:34Z Bike: like, for real. defstruct is the fast one with packed storage, and to do that it can't be redefinable.
2020-12-05T03:22:51Z lotuseater: you can have simple inheritance on your current struct and add the new slots
2020-12-05T03:23:06Z Bike: it might work if you also redefine every function or other thing that refers to the structure definition.
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2020-12-05T03:24:19Z lotuseater: from experimenting it worked to make (makunbound 'struct-name) and initializing the new
2020-12-05T03:24:36Z Bike: makunbound has nothing to do with struct definitions
2020-12-05T03:25:13Z Bike: i just did (defstruct foo) (makunbound 'foo) (defstruct foo bar) in sbcl and yep, error.
2020-12-05T03:25:18Z lotuseater: i didn't say so
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2020-12-05T03:25:38Z lotuseater: hm okay wait, how did i do it then ...
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2020-12-05T03:26:32Z mister_m: for some context I am working on steve losh's chip-8 tutorial where they posit that struct accessors make a big difference in performance -- I don't know to what degree this is true but it uses a struct as the basis of the eumlator
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2020-12-05T03:26:54Z lotuseater: oh I like that blog post! learned much from it :3
2020-12-05T03:26:57Z Bike: yes, structs can actually be more performant, but they do that by sacrificing redefinability.
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2020-12-05T03:27:14Z Bike: if you're prototyping something you can use an equivalent defclass temporarily, and then when you've figured everything out make it a defstruct.
2020-12-05T03:27:23Z mister_m: that was my exact next question
2020-12-05T03:27:38Z lotuseater: good advise Bike
2020-12-05T03:27:47Z mister_m: that seems like a reasonable thing to do while I am in the more interactive phase
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2020-12-05T04:02:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-05T07:22:54Z pyc: Is https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/REPL.html different from the REPL I see when I load vanilla SLIME?
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2020-12-05T07:37:28Z jackdaniel: mister_m: make a macro define-class that expands to defstruct when :foolhardy is in the *features*, and to defclass otherwise
2020-12-05T07:38:02Z jackdaniel: you may also have an "extension slot" where you put your afterthought data on a plist
2020-12-05T07:38:25Z jackdaniel: (defstruct foo a b c extension-plist)
2020-12-05T07:45:44Z no-defun-allowed: pyc: I think that is referring to the main SLIME REPL
2020-12-05T07:46:42Z pyc: no-defun-allowed: Why does it then say, "To load the REPL use (add-to-list 'slime-contribs 'slime-repl) in your .emacs." I did add that line to my ~/.emacs.d/init.el and yet I got the exact same REPL that I would get without that line.
2020-12-05T07:51:35Z beach: My guess is that the repl didn't use to be enabled by default, so that then you had to enable it explicitly, but now it is enabled by default.
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2020-12-05T08:05:57Z pyc: beach: thanks. that would make sense indeed. i have posted a question to https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/585 get more clarity on this.
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2020-12-05T09:22:20Z nij: Hello! While working with elisp in emacs, it's easy to get to the docstring and definition of any symbol. Is there something similar in common lisp?
2020-12-05T09:22:47Z phoe: clhs documentation
2020-12-05T09:22:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2020-12-05T09:22:53Z no-defun-allowed: (documentation 'function-name 'function)
2020-12-05T09:22:56Z phoe: use M-. in slime to jump to definition
2020-12-05T09:23:25Z phoe: but to be honest, I use DESCRIBE much more often than I use DOCUMENTATION
2020-12-05T09:23:29Z ck_: also in slime, there's C-c C-d d (and C-c C-d h to look up the hyperspec entry)
2020-12-05T09:23:43Z phoe: there's also lambda list and other information printed in the symbol description
2020-12-05T09:23:57Z nij: hmm I haven't had slime set up yet. Lemme try in my terminal.
2020-12-05T09:24:17Z phoe: do set it up
2020-12-05T09:24:34Z phoe: having a toolkit like slime or sly is essential to programming interactively in Common Lisp
2020-12-05T09:25:09Z phoe: without it you have no easy way to send forms or whole files for compilation/definition/redefinition and you have no independent debugger/inspector or source tracking
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2020-12-05T09:26:55Z nij: I see
2020-12-05T09:26:55Z nij: Wait.. any working minimal example for 'documentation?
2020-12-05T09:26:55Z nij: I ran (documentation 'setf) in sbcl and got error
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2020-12-05T09:27:11Z phoe: nij: two arguments
2020-12-05T09:27:13Z nij`: :(
2020-12-05T09:27:18Z phoe: (documentation 'setf 'function)
2020-12-05T09:27:21Z nij`: lost connection
2020-12-05T09:27:22Z no-defun-allowed: (documentation 'setf 'function)
2020-12-05T09:27:24Z phoe: or just (describe 'setf)
2020-12-05T09:27:25Z nij`: oh lets see
2020-12-05T09:28:14Z nij`: It shows where the source file is.
2020-12-05T09:28:29Z nij`: But is it possible to show the source code of that function on the fly?
2020-12-05T09:28:51Z phoe: M-.
2020-12-05T09:28:55Z phoe: slime does have it
2020-12-05T09:29:02Z nij`: OK I need to get SLIME.
2020-12-05T09:29:08Z nij`: Thanks :)
2020-12-05T09:29:16Z phoe: what is your favorite editor?
2020-12-05T09:29:17Z ck_: the cross-referencing facilities are very handy, you should totally read the documentation for slime
2020-12-05T09:29:19Z nij`: emacs
2020-12-05T09:29:24Z nij`: well actually I have that installed
2020-12-05T09:29:32Z phoe: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
2020-12-05T09:29:39Z phoe: that'll set up slime for you
2020-12-05T09:29:44Z nij`: I did not use it cuz I had some problem with quicklisp. Now it's settled.
2020-12-05T09:30:31Z nij`: phoe: got it!
2020-12-05T09:30:37Z nij`: And I do have slime in emacs.
2020-12-05T09:30:45Z phoe: :3
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2020-12-05T09:31:17Z nij`: M-x SLIME says "there's no such file or directory, lisp.""
2020-12-05T09:31:39Z ck_: yeah, go ahead and read the documentation, it'll tell you how to point slime to your lisp binary
2020-12-05T09:32:04Z nij`: Uh sorry being very naive here. What is "my lisp binary"?
2020-12-05T09:32:12Z nij`: sbcl?
2020-12-05T09:32:16Z ck_: for example, yes
2020-12-05T09:32:42Z nij`: Oh sbcl tells me to (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl") in emacs. Lemme do that.
2020-12-05T09:33:13Z nij`: OH nice! Oh jeez it works. M-. <3 <3
2020-12-05T09:33:49Z ck_: M-, to go back,  and for the rest, I suggest for a final time to read the documentation completely, it'll help a lot
2020-12-05T09:34:09Z nij`: The doc of SLIME? or SBCL?
2020-12-05T09:34:33Z ck_: of slime, https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/ --> manual
2020-12-05T09:34:56Z nij`: Thanks :)
2020-12-05T09:38:06Z nij`: Hmm.. two things that I'm still not used to.. (If the answer is in the DOC I will just find it. Sorry to bother much!)
2020-12-05T09:38:24Z phoe: no problem
2020-12-05T09:38:39Z nij`: First of, the definition of 'loop is defined by 'sb-xc:defmacro, which I don't know. However, M-. sb-xc:defmacro does not show anything.
2020-12-05T09:38:47Z phoe: #lisp is fine unless there's ongoing discussion of other types; then, there is #clschool
2020-12-05T09:38:57Z phoe: oh! yes, I see
2020-12-05T09:39:19Z phoe: SB-XC:FOO is a SBCL thing that you should read as CL:FOO
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2020-12-05T09:39:28Z nij`: Second of, while looking defs in elisp, one can use ivy to do quick fuzzy search. Possible in SLIME as well?
2020-12-05T09:39:33Z no-defun-allowed: You probably can ignore SB-XC prefixes. They are used while compiling (or "bootstrapping") SBCL.
2020-12-05T09:39:35Z phoe: the difference is important because of how their cross-compiler works.
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2020-12-05T09:39:51Z phoe: so you can interpret LOOP as being defined via standard CL:DEFMACRO.
2020-12-05T09:39:57Z nij`: I see. (I don't know cl:xyz either.)
2020-12-05T09:40:11Z nij`: so 'cl:defmacro and 'defmacro are different?
2020-12-05T09:40:12Z phoe: as for the second problem, I usually solve it slightly differently
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2020-12-05T09:40:42Z phoe: I start typing the symbol I want into the REPL, and then I use company-mode to find me the match I am looking for
2020-12-05T09:40:46Z phoe: then I M-. on it
2020-12-05T09:40:54Z ck_: you can set slime-complete-symbol-function to 'slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol, and that'll give you a probably similar type of tab-completion, you need to put slime-fuzzy into the setup for that too
2020-12-05T09:40:55Z phoe: nij`: are you aware of how CL packages work?
2020-12-05T09:41:03Z phoe: ck_: TIL, thanks
2020-12-05T09:41:06Z nij`: phoe: not really.
2020-12-05T09:41:26Z phoe: nij`: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf
2020-12-05T09:41:29Z nij`: ck_: Oh that's neat. Thanks for the tip!
2020-12-05T09:41:39Z phoe: forgive the unfortunate document name, but the contents are very good
2020-12-05T09:42:13Z nij`: Seems a good fit to me!
2020-12-05T09:42:22Z nij`: I'm the complete idiot xD
2020-12-05T09:42:24Z phoe: basically, symbols in CL are organized in packages, *UNLIKE* in elisp
2020-12-05T09:42:46Z phoe: summing up a real lot, a package is a named collection of symbols.
2020-12-05T09:43:06Z phoe: and when symbols are created, they are usually interned into packages.
2020-12-05T09:43:17Z nij`: What does this have to do with cl:defmacro?
2020-12-05T09:43:26Z nij`: s/cl/'cl
2020-12-05T09:43:43Z phoe: usually, when you write DEFMACRO, you usually want to refer to the symbol named DEFMACRO from the CL package
2020-12-05T09:44:01Z phoe: this is done because a package can use other packages, inheriting its exported symbols into itself.
2020-12-05T09:44:08Z nij`: OH.
2020-12-05T09:44:19Z phoe: so when you are in package CL-USER, writing DEFMACRO refers to the symbol DEFMACRO inherited from CL
2020-12-05T09:44:21Z nij`: So writing defmacro is sometimes ok, but not specific enough?
2020-12-05T09:44:26Z phoe: most of the time it's OK
2020-12-05T09:44:31Z nij`: Nice!
2020-12-05T09:44:32Z phoe: but it's also context-dependent
2020-12-05T09:44:40Z phoe: because your package doesn't need to use the CL package
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2020-12-05T09:44:53Z phoe: so DEFMACRO does not need to refer to CL:DEFMACRO all the tiem.
2020-12-05T09:44:56Z phoe: time.*
2020-12-05T09:45:02Z nij`: But that shouldn't prevent M-. teaching me what and where 'sb-xc:defmacro is..
2020-12-05T09:45:28Z nij`: It should lead me to the the code block where 'defmacro is defined in the sb-xc package
2020-12-05T09:45:33Z phoe: DEFMACRO is the macro for defining macros
2020-12-05T09:45:46Z phoe: and you're already diving into the implementation bootstrapping territory
2020-12-05T09:45:53Z phoe: notice that you have a circularity there
2020-12-05T09:46:19Z phoe: most of the time you cannot really (DEFMACRO DEFMACRO ...) because if you write such code, you don't have DEFMACRO that is required to define DEFMACRO
2020-12-05T09:46:27Z nij`: lemme try another one prefixed by sb-xc..
2020-12-05T09:46:52Z phoe: maybe try (mapcar #'1+ '(1 2 3 4 5))!
2020-12-05T09:47:11Z nij`: Yep it works.
2020-12-05T09:47:16Z phoe: that's going to give you something that doesn't require sb-xc
2020-12-05T09:47:21Z phoe: but is still crunchy to understand
2020-12-05T09:47:35Z phoe: that's because it's implementation internals, symbols from the CL package are allowed to be complicated
2020-12-05T09:47:58Z nij`: You mean try M-. mapcar?
2020-12-05T09:48:11Z phoe: yes
2020-12-05T09:48:45Z phoe: it should land you in https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/7492ec61bd7db6da9f9cbb56cebf7f80a198c883/src/code/list.lisp#L1335
2020-12-05T09:49:27Z nij`: complicated. yes.
2020-12-05T09:49:35Z phoe: not very much
2020-12-05T09:49:43Z nij`: dunno what macrolet is
2020-12-05T09:49:47Z phoe: this form defines six very similar functions using a common "skeleton"
2020-12-05T09:49:57Z phoe: macrolet is for writing local macros. and macros generate Lisp code.
2020-12-05T09:50:02Z nij`: oh
2020-12-05T09:50:09Z nij`: a lambda macro
2020-12-05T09:50:19Z phoe: not really a lambda macro; just a macro
2020-12-05T09:50:23Z phoe: something that generates code for you
2020-12-05T09:50:31Z nij`: Oh wow this is cool!
2020-12-05T09:50:40Z phoe: instead of writing (DEFUN MAPC ...) and then (DEFUN MAPCAR ...) and then (DEFUN MAPCAN ...) and then ..., all of which have very similar bodies
2020-12-05T09:51:09Z phoe: instead the skeleton is created as a local macro, and then it is "instantiated" with the proper arguments that fill in the blanks
2020-12-05T09:51:19Z nij`: Very terse <3 Love it.
2020-12-05T09:51:32Z phoe: and that directly makes code shorter and avoids copypaste and fix-here-but-not-there classes of bugs.
2020-12-05T09:51:37Z phoe: but!
2020-12-05T09:51:46Z phoe: note that all of these functions actually call the helper function MAP1
2020-12-05T09:51:54Z phoe: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/7492ec61bd7db6da9f9cbb56cebf7f80a198c883/src/code/list.lisp#L1303
2020-12-05T09:52:01Z _death: it's a good demonstration of why newbies shouldn't read sbcl internals
2020-12-05T09:52:04Z phoe: and this is something that you can try to understand, if you feel like it.
2020-12-05T09:52:31Z phoe: _death: hey come on, I'm using this particular example to show basics of writing real Lisp
2020-12-05T09:52:39Z phoe: is it still too complicated?
2020-12-05T09:52:41Z nij`: This is neat and elegant.
2020-12-05T09:52:47Z nij`: No. At least trackable!
2020-12-05T09:52:48Z _death: I would say it's too obfuscated
2020-12-05T09:53:30Z nij`: I won't understand it right away.
2020-12-05T09:53:41Z nij`: Just trying to learn a way to self help
2020-12-05T09:53:50Z nij`: That's very clear phoe thanks :D
2020-12-05T09:53:53Z ck_: I don't think there's one true golden path to understanding anyway
2020-12-05T09:54:01Z phoe: nij`: M-. will help you the most when reading CL code written by other people
2020-12-05T09:54:02Z ck_: you seem to do ok, have fun with it
2020-12-05T09:54:23Z phoe: and, sometimes, implementation internals
2020-12-05T09:54:49Z phoe: as _death noticed the latter can be complicated or very hard to understand
2020-12-05T09:54:49Z nij`: excited.
2020-12-05T09:55:00Z nij`: Yeah..
2020-12-05T09:55:04Z phoe: but if you (ql:quickload :alexandria) and then try to M-. some alexandria symbols, that is going to be written in pure CL
2020-12-05T09:55:15Z phoe: and that's more understandable.
2020-12-05T09:55:25Z _death: it also shows sbcl-specific details that a newbie should avoid in his own code
2020-12-05T09:55:27Z phoe: when wondering what some standard CL symbols do, you can use clhs for reading them up
2020-12-05T09:55:30Z phoe: clhs loop
2020-12-05T09:55:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2020-12-05T09:55:55Z phoe: here's a CLHS page for loop, which is a complicated beast. but some people claim it's fun to use once you get used to it.
2020-12-05T09:56:09Z phoe: clhs defmacro
2020-12-05T09:56:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmac.htm
2020-12-05T09:56:35Z phoe: here's defmacro which is a less complicated beast. but some people claim it's fun to use once you get used to it.
2020-12-05T09:56:42Z _death: or not just newbies, but non sbcl developers
2020-12-05T09:56:56Z phoe: ^
2020-12-05T09:57:06Z nij`: <3
2020-12-05T09:57:19Z nij`: Why does M-. defun take me to defun-expander
2020-12-05T09:57:37Z phoe: because this is how defun is implemented inside SBCL
2020-12-05T09:57:37Z nij`: (M-. defun <RET>)
2020-12-05T09:58:02Z phoe: note that a little bit below you have sb-xc:defmacro defun
2020-12-05T09:58:06Z nij`: Oh.... this one is new to me. But I don't mind the details now. :)
2020-12-05T09:58:29Z no-defun-allowed: defun-expander increases the volume of de fun.
2020-12-05T09:58:29Z ck_: are you looking for details on your compiler though, or do you want to look at the language specification?
2020-12-05T09:58:57Z nij`: phoe: indeed. Why didn't M-. defun bring me to sb-xc:defmacro defun then?
2020-12-05T09:59:03Z phoe: it's a common trick to use separate functions while defining macros, because those help with readability in case of large macros.
2020-12-05T09:59:19Z nij`: ck_: I'm just fiddling around :D
2020-12-05T09:59:37Z nij`: I see @@
2020-12-05T09:59:41Z phoe: nij`: I guess that's because DEFMACRO DEFUN just directly calls DEFUN-EXPANDER
2020-12-05T09:59:53Z phoe: so SBCL just saved you another M-. this way.
2020-12-05T09:59:57Z nij`: Not really a fan of this auto feature..
2020-12-05T10:00:19Z phoe: as I said, it is most useful when writing Lisp code written by people
2020-12-05T10:00:20Z nij`: But fine :)
2020-12-05T10:00:28Z ck_: nij`: I see. For looking at the spec, you can use C-c C-d h (if you have a browser set up in emacs) on common lisp symbols which will take you to the corresponding page. Which will help for notes on how to use loop, for example, more than looking at the source
2020-12-05T10:00:34Z phoe: not the subset-of-Lisp-code that is used in implementation making
2020-12-05T10:01:10Z phoe: because, as _death noticed, the latter is going to look obfuscated pretty often
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2020-12-05T10:01:31Z nij`: C-c C-d h is nice trick
2020-12-05T10:02:16Z nij`: Fine. I think I can start messying around :)
2020-12-05T10:02:25Z nij`: Thanks folks!
2020-12-05T10:02:47Z phoe: good luck! and feel free to visit here or #clschool for answers to your questions
2020-12-05T10:03:08Z nij`: :) :)
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2020-12-05T10:18:44Z _death: maybe SICL would be a better candidate.. compare https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/Cons/mapcar-defun.lisp
2020-12-05T10:19:37Z phoe: yes, that's because SICL attempts to write Common Lisp in Common Lisp
2020-12-05T10:19:48Z phoe: but it's a work-in-progress, still.
2020-12-05T10:20:24Z moon-child: implementing mapcar with loop...interesting choice
2020-12-05T10:20:48Z beach: Thanks. :)
2020-12-05T10:20:50Z _death: phoe: that's an opportunity for a newbie :)
2020-12-05T10:21:04Z moon-child: it seems to me that it would be easy enough to implement mapcar without loop; but that loop, being more complex, would benefit more from a preexisting implementation of mapcar
2020-12-05T10:21:18Z moon-child: beach: :)
2020-12-05T10:21:41Z beach: LOOP expands to TAGBODY, so it is really simple.
2020-12-05T10:22:08Z flip214: MAPCAR should be implemented via TAGBODY, as any old BASIC specialist (or low-level assembler) would tell you
2020-12-05T10:22:43Z beach: moon-child: You can't really implement LOOP with mapcar, unless you do it only for the special case where it applies.
2020-12-05T10:23:10Z phoe: tagbody should be implemented with delimited continuations since that's the best existing scheme for it
2020-12-05T10:23:13Z phoe hides
2020-12-05T10:24:16Z moon-child: phoe: a beguiling thought
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2020-12-05T13:27:42Z nij: Hello! I have a list to traverse through it. I want to point out the entries that satisfy certain predicate out.
2020-12-05T13:27:55Z nij: However, it's not a point-wise check. It's more like a local check.
2020-12-05T13:28:47Z nij: So while examine at 8 in '(1 2 3 .. 10), I want the predicate actually look at numbers near 8. Eg. '(7 8 9)
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2020-12-05T13:29:02Z nij: How is such list traversal carried out in common lisp?
2020-12-05T13:29:37Z nij: (Sometimes I might also want to look at the neighborhood of 8 with width being "n".)
2020-12-05T13:30:11Z aeth: nij: check the CADR or in general the NTH car of the sublist
2020-12-05T13:30:39Z aeth: although that's just naive, you could optimize that by having two iterations, the first testing the CAR and the second being the start of the range
2020-12-05T13:31:42Z nij: oh ok, so by repeating 'cadr I can get the neighbors on the right.
2020-12-05T13:31:55Z nij: How about those on the left?
2020-12-05T13:32:19Z nij: Perhaps I shouldn't use lists? As they are just chained cons cells.
2020-12-05T13:32:22Z aeth: (loop :with l := (loop :for i :below 10 :collect (1+ i)) :for x :on l :do (print x))
2020-12-05T13:32:38Z aeth: that will go through the sublist until (10)
2020-12-05T13:33:31Z aeth: nij: but instead you can do (loop :with l := (loop :for i :below 10 :collect (1+ i)) :for x :on l :for y :on (cddr l) :do (format t "x = ~S~%y = ~S~%~%" x y))
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2020-12-05T13:35:13Z aeth: You could probably also do "y :in" instead of "y :on"
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2020-12-05T13:36:38Z _death: if the list doesn't contain NILs you can just (loop for (a b c) on list while c collect (list a b c)) .. if it does, you can move the destructuring around and check for nthcdr
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2020-12-05T13:37:13Z nij: oh that would work
2020-12-05T13:37:25Z phoe: nij: (loop for (a b c . rest) on '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7) do (print (list a b c)) when (null rest) do (loop-finish))
2020-12-05T13:37:31Z aeth: I don't like LOOP's destructuring because it's unreliable. Contrast with DESTRUCTURING-BIND, which errors when it doesn't match expectations.
2020-12-05T13:39:21Z aeth: I suppose here it can work because there isn't a complicated shape, but even for something as simple as a plist, LOOP's built-in destructuring doesn't do what you want.
2020-12-05T13:39:38Z nij: aeth: I will keep that in mind.
2020-12-05T13:39:59Z nij: I dunno if this is too much to hope.
2020-12-05T13:40:21Z aeth: ahah
2020-12-05T13:40:22Z _death: are you doing advent of code?
2020-12-05T13:40:25Z nij: But I was thinking of writing a dynamical predicate, in the sense that it would first examine at a point
2020-12-05T13:40:41Z nij: And if it doesn't satisfy, it checks its neighborhood, larger and larger.
2020-12-05T13:40:49Z nij: _death: What is that?
2020-12-05T13:40:52Z aeth: It's still too unreliable in phoe's example because it will do the unexpected when the list is too short, e.g. (1 NIL NIL) for '(1) as the input
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2020-12-05T13:41:05Z aeth: Literally 100% of the time, when I start with LOOP's destructuring, I replace it.
2020-12-05T13:41:17Z nij: I have a feeling that list is the wrong data structure to use.
2020-12-05T13:41:24Z beach: aeth: In what way is it "unreliable"?
2020-12-05T13:41:51Z beach: aeth: I thought it was perfectly predictable and deterministic.
2020-12-05T13:41:52Z _death: nij: some coding exercise.. today's problem could be solved using something like what you described
2020-12-05T13:41:54Z nij: Should I use an array or something instead?
2020-12-05T13:42:03Z aeth: beach: Because if you were to use <, >, <=, >=, =, etc., you will get an error because a random NIL will pop up, but only on an unexpected edge case (in this case, short lists), and when a random NIL pops up in a large program, it's really annoying to track down
2020-12-05T13:42:09Z nij: _death: Oh@@ No I was solving my own issue.
2020-12-05T13:42:21Z nij: It's a little exercise on analyzing stocks.
2020-12-05T13:42:25Z phoe: might be worth using an array, yes
2020-12-05T13:42:33Z beach: aeth: NILs will not pop up randomly.
2020-12-05T13:42:34Z nij: But I have a vision to analyze a graph.. locally and spreading out.
2020-12-05T13:42:44Z phoe: if you want fast random access to arbitrary elements of your data, then vectors or arrays sound good
2020-12-05T13:42:51Z nij: Hopefully it can be applied on topological spaces.
2020-12-05T13:43:10Z nij: phoe: what's the down side of vectors comparing to lists?
2020-12-05T13:43:12Z aeth: beach: DESTRUCTURING-BIND will fail immediately when the shape of the list fails to meet what you think it is going to be, which will be instant debugging at the source of the issue instead of sending you down wild goose chases, like when a NIL pops up several files later in a program that consists of several thousand LoC or more.
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2020-12-05T13:43:38Z aeth: beach: From experience, I have tried to eliminate all sources of unexpected NILs in my code.
2020-12-05T13:44:20Z nij: OK! I have made up my mind that I want this to be general.
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2020-12-05T13:44:29Z aeth: beach: Here, the = will probably be inside of the loop, but in a large program, you might just assume it's still a list of numbers and it could show up much later on.
2020-12-05T13:44:31Z nij: Don't want to write it again for general case later.
2020-12-05T13:44:54Z phoe: nij: inability to insert new elements in cosntant time.
2020-12-05T13:44:54Z nij: So I'm looking for an implementation of directed graphs.
2020-12-05T13:45:11Z nij: phoe: Oh! That's right. Interesting.
2020-12-05T13:45:20Z phoe: you can work around it by using adjustable vectors, but even then reallocations must happen at some point.
2020-12-05T13:45:26Z phoe: and even then you can only add at the end
2020-12-05T13:45:26Z aeth: beach: It could even be the difference of catching it at compile time (in the macro, since destructuring lists generally are in macros ime, at least in my code) vs at run time.
2020-12-05T13:46:23Z nij: phoe: How about a list where the cdr remembers where its car is?
2020-12-05T13:46:38Z nij: Is it called a dynamical array or something?
2020-12-05T13:46:52Z nij: I just want a node to remember who its neighbors are!
2020-12-05T13:47:07Z _death: (defstruct node parents children)
2020-12-05T13:47:07Z nij 
2020-12-05T13:47:17Z phoe: nij: that's not really a dynamical array; just a linked list or a graph node of sorts.
2020-12-05T13:47:19Z nij wonders if he should talk to his neighbors more.
2020-12-05T13:47:31Z nij: phoe: Oh ok I will do the homework myself then :D
2020-12-05T13:47:45Z nij: I'm sure there are implemented structures like this already!
2020-12-05T13:48:24Z aeth: beach: But you're correct that it's not technically random, it's just that it seems random to the programmer who is debugging the issue of "random" NILs because it's inserted in an unexpected place.
2020-12-05T13:50:33Z aeth: nij: in general, you can make graph nodes out of cons, but you probably shouldn't because cons cells aren't going to enforce any constraints that you might have
2020-12-05T13:52:41Z pve: Hi, is there an "closer:add-superclass" function with a different name that I'm missing? Or am I supposed to go through closer:ensure-class to change the superclass of a class?
2020-12-05T13:53:01Z aeth: nij: and working with conses, you'll probably be too tempted to work with CDDADRs instead of naming your concepts
2020-12-05T13:53:14Z nij: aeth: Right. Just curious about another general question.
2020-12-05T13:53:14Z nij: In common lisp, while defining a structure, is there anyway to force auto-checking if an instance satisfies the assumption?
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2020-12-05T13:53:47Z nij`: For example, in some structure, I want the slot "year" to pass the regex test ([0-9][0-9][0-9][0-9]).
2020-12-05T13:53:52Z nij`: Can it be checked automatically?
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2020-12-05T13:55:06Z aeth: For structs? If it can be expressed as a type, you can use :type for a slot to test it, although SATISFIES types (like that) are generally not very popular. For DEFCLASS classes? You can use the metaobject protocol to enforce it on setting (which will cover both the initial set of the slot and any later setting), including as a type
2020-12-05T13:55:14Z phoe: that's generally to be done by the constructor function
2020-12-05T13:55:29Z phoe: input validation and such
2020-12-05T13:55:32Z _death: if you define a class instead you can provide your own accessors (or before/around methods for them) and check
2020-12-05T13:55:33Z aeth: But, unfortunately, you can't rely on :type in slots in DEFCLASS because the most popular implementation (SBCL) at default optimization levels doesn't do typechecks...
2020-12-05T13:55:38Z phoe: also, why would your year be a string and not a number
2020-12-05T13:56:20Z nij`: _death: oh I see! Check while accessing.
2020-12-05T13:56:39Z aeth: and, yeah, you'd probably want a number instead of a string, in which case it's a simple (integer 0 9999) or whatever
2020-12-05T13:57:02Z nij`: Oh yeah. I should be able to write any predicates I want.
2020-12-05T13:57:50Z aeth: (deftype year () '(integer 0 9999) (typep 2020 'year) => T
2020-12-05T13:57:55Z aeth: oops, left out a )
2020-12-05T13:58:01Z beach: pve: You can use (SETF DIRECT-SUPERCLASSES), so you can use PUSH
2020-12-05T13:58:01Z aeth: (deftype year () '(integer 0 9999)) (typep 2020 'year) => T
2020-12-05T13:58:18Z beach: mop class-direct-superclasses
2020-12-05T13:58:18Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-direct-superclasses.html
2020-12-05T13:58:33Z beach: pve: Sorry CLASS-DIRECT-SUPERCLASSES
2020-12-05T13:58:52Z _death: aeth: Y10K bug
2020-12-05T13:58:55Z beach: pve: At least I think you can use SETF with it.  If not, just use REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
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2020-12-05T13:59:05Z aeth: _death: that's how the client, nij`, specified a year.
2020-12-05T13:59:17Z aeth: It's someone else's problem in the 9990s
2020-12-05T13:59:31Z _death: what about year zero? :)
2020-12-05T13:59:45Z aeth: 0 is a valid year in ISO 8601
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2020-12-05T13:59:51Z pve: beach: oh, nice.. thank you
2020-12-05T14:00:15Z nij`: aeth: loll I'm sure human will kill themselves before that.
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2020-12-05T14:00:37Z aeth: _death: in ISO 8601, 1 BC is year 0000 and 2 BC is year -0001, and so on
2020-12-05T14:00:42Z _death: aeth: kinda weird, I'd think.. like all political time
2020-12-05T14:01:10Z aeth: it's weird, but it's because our year system came before negative numbers were philosophically accepted
2020-12-05T14:01:19Z aeth: maybe before 0 was philosophically accepted, too
2020-12-05T14:01:58Z nij`: aeth: Hmm checking up the doc online: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_deftp.htm
2020-12-05T14:02:05Z aeth: 0's only natural when you use a digit-based system, like we now do, but years were traditionally Roman numerals (and in copyright years, the transition was usually around the year 2000, although some still use Roman numerals)
2020-12-05T14:02:16Z nij`: It seems that the third argument for 'deftype should be a boolean function.
2020-12-05T14:02:29Z nij`: In your case, it's '(integer 0 9999)
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2020-12-05T14:03:21Z nij`: So what's going on @@ Did I miss anything
2020-12-05T14:03:23Z pve: beach: ok, it seems I don't have a (setf class-direct-superclasses)
2020-12-05T14:03:37Z aeth: nij`: deftype is used to construct new types from old types... where a predicate is only used if you're using SATISFIES (which you should avoid if you can, because it's inefficient)... and integer is a special kind of type
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2020-12-05T14:03:55Z nij`: @@ Oh.. ok
2020-12-05T14:03:59Z aeth: numbers support ranges, specifically for this sort of use case
2020-12-05T14:04:08Z beach: pve: Then just use (REINITIALIZE-INSTANCED :DIRECT-SUPERCLASSES ...)
2020-12-05T14:04:20Z beach: pve: Er, you figure it out.
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2020-12-05T14:04:41Z beach: I am not terribly smart today apparently.
2020-12-05T14:04:59Z aeth: nij`: in numbers, (foo x y) is the range including x and y, while (foo (x) y) excludes x, and so on for the other 2 combinations, but for integers, that's not particularly important.
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2020-12-05T14:05:50Z pve: beach: yeah, I understand, thanks
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2020-12-05T14:06:19Z aeth: e.g. (typep 42.3 '(single-float (42.3) 43.0)) => NIL (but don't rely on that because floats are weird when using = for tests)
2020-12-05T14:06:26Z nij`: It feels very different from elips. Or maybe I never had to deal with that back then.
2020-12-05T14:06:26Z nij`: Perhaps need to build up some muscles first.
2020-12-05T14:06:46Z aeth: it's all about domains.
2020-12-05T14:07:01Z aeth: Elisp has richer built-ins for dealing with text, Common Lisp has richer built-ins for dealing with numbers and arrays.
2020-12-05T14:08:09Z aeth: There's at least one Computer Algebra System in Common Lisp, which actually predates Common Lisp, which is probably one of the reasons why Common Lisp supports this sort of thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macsyma
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2020-12-05T14:10:24Z nij`: So while defining a new structure, can one force type checking?
2020-12-05T14:10:34Z nij`: (given that a type has been defined.)
2020-12-05T14:10:43Z aeth: yes
2020-12-05T14:10:50Z phoe: on high safety settings, yes
2020-12-05T14:10:52Z aeth: nij`: In general, though, to build up an intuition for DEFTYPE, just be aware that your primitives are types (including structs/classes you define), SATISFIES (avoid if possible), EQL, and MEMBER, which you compose with OR and AND and NOT
2020-12-05T14:11:26Z aeth: And numbers and arrays have special extensions to allow for very sophisticated things.
2020-12-05T14:11:41Z nij`: excited :D
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2020-12-05T14:14:02Z aeth: You can use them in TYPEP, TYPECASE/ETYPECASE/CTYPECASE, and CHECK-TYPE. You can use them in arrays, but only extremely simple types of numbers/characters; you can test to see what it does in an implementation with upgraded-array-element-type, where T means it does nothing.
2020-12-05T14:14:37Z nij`: Upon accessing? Or defining?
2020-12-05T14:14:44Z aeth: And you can use them in :type in slots in DEFSTRUCT and they'll probably be checked, but if you use them in :type in slots in DEFCLASS, they probably won't be checked, so you'd have to use some library (or directly manipulate the meta-object protocol) to force a check there.
2020-12-05T14:14:46Z nij`: I hope for it to be checked upon defining..
2020-12-05T14:15:22Z nij`: Interesting. 'defstruct replicate in elisp does not support type checking afaik.
2020-12-05T14:15:27Z nij`: That's nice.
2020-12-05T14:15:31Z aeth: The thing about "they'll probably be checked" is that there are 4 outcomes for the possible combinations of checked accessor & checked constructor.
2020-12-05T14:15:48Z aeth: It depends on the implementation.
2020-12-05T14:16:19Z _death: type declarations are promises, not assertions, although some implementations do treat them as the latter.. so you need check-type etc.
2020-12-05T14:16:39Z nij`: OH@@ I'm using sbcl does it check type?
2020-12-05T14:16:40Z aeth: Hopefully, implementations will add assert/check-type style type checking to typed slots in DEFSTRUCT where they don't already have such checking because that's one of the few uses of DEFSTRUCT in modern Lisp
2020-12-05T14:17:05Z nij`: hmm..
2020-12-05T14:17:20Z aeth: In general, SBCL checks types in pretty much any optional place where type checking is permitted (except at (safety 0)) with the sole exception of :type in slots in DEFCLASS, where it only checks at high safety levels
2020-12-05T14:18:00Z aeth: However... SBCL's manual says that it might simplify the check (at low safety levels?) for certain complicated types, e.g. it might simplify (or (integer -4 -1) (integer 1 4)) to just check (or (integer -4 4))
2020-12-05T14:18:04Z aeth: iirc
2020-12-05T14:19:20Z nij`: Got it. Thx :D
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2020-12-05T14:20:00Z aeth: If you *must* rely on a type check, then using CHECK-TYPE (or ASSERT with a TYPEP if the type isn't known at compile time) will force it everywhere, to full reliability, because it's one of the few musts.
2020-12-05T14:20:48Z nij`: Wow 'deftype is just a macro..
2020-12-05T14:21:02Z aeth: In general, I use CHECK-TYPE at the interface parts where the user might insert the wrong type, and I use less-reliable type checking elsewhere.
2020-12-05T14:21:05Z nij`: I thought one needs to implement that from lower level.
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2020-12-05T14:24:16Z aeth: In case I was unclear, directly using types in code (rather than :type arguments or DECLARE/DECLAIM/etc. declarations) such as TYPEP, TYPECASE, and CHECK-TYPE will reliably check types. The others are optional, and so could be ignored (or, more rarely, such as with DECLARE, assumed!)
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2020-12-05T14:26:00Z aeth: If an implementation assumes DECLAREd types above (safety 0) then I personally consider that implementation broken although it's technically conforming. If user code (or, worse, library code!) uses the optimization level of (safety 0) then I personally consider the code to be broken.
2020-12-05T14:26:27Z aeth: Either way gives you less safety than C.
2020-12-05T14:26:30Z nij`: what is this opt level about?
2020-12-05T14:26:45Z aeth: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm
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2020-12-05T14:27:25Z aeth: You can't really talk about types without at least mentioning optimization levels because it's not just an issue of implementations differing, it's also an issue of one implementation behaving differently based on optimization levels.
2020-12-05T14:28:02Z nij`: @@
2020-12-05T14:28:46Z aeth: For the most part, the only things you need to know are that you sometimes need (debug 3) to make full use of the debugger and you should never use (safety 0) ever, ever, ever. (OK, there are a handful of cases, but they can be wrapped in LOCALLY to contain the lack of safety to the smallest possible scope)
2020-12-05T14:29:54Z nij`: Can I just ignore this declaration in my first few projects? Or I should always include a (declare (optimization n))?
2020-12-05T14:29:57Z _death: also best steak is (steak 1)
2020-12-05T14:30:22Z aeth: nij`: you probably don't need it, it's just a caveat with typechecking.
2020-12-05T14:31:02Z nij`: I see :)
2020-12-05T14:31:41Z aeth: That is, you want types to check certain constraints, but sometimes some implementations in some cases will stop checking and start assuming if (safety 0) so the important thing is to never do that.
2020-12-05T14:36:04Z Josh_2: Ello
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2020-12-05T15:52:59Z thmprover: What are some good 'desert island' books for Common Lisp?
2020-12-05T15:53:44Z beach: Depends on your current level of knowledge.
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2020-12-05T15:53:58Z phoe: AMOP is definitely amazing
2020-12-05T15:54:20Z beach: Definitely, but it requires a good existing level.
2020-12-05T15:54:24Z thmprover: I'm coming from a Scheme/Clojure background (Scheme was the second language I learned, and Clojure I work with daily)
2020-12-05T15:54:37Z phoe: L/L is sorta good, too, though many techniques that are described there are mostly useful as brain-bending exercises and not in practical code
2020-12-05T15:55:01Z thmprover: L/L I have, and I feel it is more of a polemic (in the best sense of the word)
2020-12-05T15:55:12Z phoe: oh! then you should read PCL and possibly CLR to ensure that you know enough of the multi-paradigm aspect of Common Lisp
2020-12-05T15:55:14Z thmprover: I did learn a lot about macros from it
2020-12-05T15:55:25Z thmprover: CLR?
2020-12-05T15:55:30Z phoe: Common Lisp Recipes
2020-12-05T15:55:48Z phoe: possibly (shameless plug) TCLCS to learn about the CL condition system and how it differs from a lot of exception handling systems out there
2020-12-05T15:56:12Z beach: Also PAIP.
2020-12-05T15:56:12Z thmprover: Ah, yeah, I have read some of CLR; I have browsed various chapters of PCL.
2020-12-05T15:56:24Z thmprover: I am half-way through PAIP.
2020-12-05T15:56:30Z beach: Ah, OK.
2020-12-05T15:57:14Z thmprover: I have just started reading CLTL, one section a day.
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2020-12-05T15:59:11Z thmprover: Touretzky's "Common Lisp: A Gentle intro to symbolic computation" was too gentle, I felt (probably because of my background in Scheme/Clojure)
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2020-12-05T15:59:51Z pyc: Does Emacs paredit not do electric return by default? Is there any other mode that does electric return by default?
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2020-12-05T16:00:48Z phoe: pyc: aggressive-indent maybe?
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2020-12-05T16:05:38Z pyc: thanks phoe
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2020-12-05T16:08:19Z pyc: What does paredit mode provide extra in comparison to electric-pair-mode?
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2020-12-05T16:28:09Z ck_: structural editing
2020-12-05T16:32:01Z treflip: pyc: It prevents you from accidentally deleting closing or opening paren and making invalid sexps
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2020-12-05T16:47:01Z Josh_2: What do people think of lispy?
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2020-12-05T16:47:57Z Gnuxie[m]: is that a way of calling something 'lispy' or some cursed python thing?
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2020-12-05T16:48:14Z pyc: Gnuxie[m]: I believe lispy is another alternative for paredit?
2020-12-05T16:48:22Z Josh_2: no no, It's an alternative to paredit
2020-12-05T16:48:33Z Gnuxie[m]: oh ok, interesting
2020-12-05T16:48:41Z pyc: Gnuxie[m]: do you use paredit or anything similar?
2020-12-05T16:48:57Z Gnuxie[m]: I use paredit
2020-12-05T16:49:13Z Josh_2: I wish I had started my lisp journey with paredit
2020-12-05T16:49:20Z Josh_2: because then I would be using it right now :P
2020-12-05T16:49:24Z pyc: Gnuxie[m]: Do you also configure it to do electric return? Or do you just paredit in its vanilla mode?
2020-12-05T16:49:40Z pyc: Josh_2: Why? What's wrong with lispy? Lispy also gets the job done, right?
2020-12-05T16:51:28Z Josh_2: Well I don't use lispy either
2020-12-05T16:53:00Z Gnuxie[m]: pyc: not sure what electric return is but that looks nasty if it's putting 2 new lines and taking you to the middle one to do the indentation style in this gif from emacs wiki https://web.archive.org/web/20121024123050/http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9479/openparen.gif
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2020-12-05T16:55:05Z pyc: Gnuxie[m]: it does gather all the parentheses and put them in the same line as you start closing the parentheses. So the end result looks the way you want. but yes, the interim results may be disconcerting if one does not like to see parentheses on their own lines even temporarily.
2020-12-05T16:57:08Z Gnuxie[m]: oh ok, not sure I'd like that
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2020-12-05T17:15:32Z nij: Hello! Suppose I have a graph.. and I like to plot it out. It will look like a network, with nodes and edges. Is there a nice network plotting package in common lisp?
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2020-12-05T17:20:24Z jackdaniel: nice is an overstatement, but cl-dot allows you to produce graphviz dot files and mcclim lets you render in lisp directly
2020-12-05T17:20:33Z phoe: seconded for cl-dot
2020-12-05T17:21:40Z jackdaniel: thirded for mcclim
2020-12-05T17:21:50Z jackdaniel: :>
2020-12-05T17:24:39Z nij: Oh wow cl-dot seems nice. Thank you :D
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2020-12-05T18:17:03Z White_Flame: the one main issue I have with paredit, which lispy also has, is that I have prolog-style "foo(bar)" syntax in some of my reader macros, and those helpers always inject a space before the open paren
2020-12-05T18:17:38Z White_Flame: I haven't poked into how much it would take to disable that
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2020-12-05T18:20:26Z aeth: White_Flame: (setq paredit-space-for-delimiter-predicates '((lambda (endp delimiter) nil)))
2020-12-05T18:20:53Z aeth: I just have to grep my code for "fuck" and I find it because it's the only thing that's commented with profanity in all of my code. :-)
2020-12-05T18:21:25Z aeth: It breaks #foo( syntax in general, i.e. any well-formed reader macro or syntactic extension.
2020-12-05T18:22:07Z mister_m: Does the loop macro support executing a block of statements every nth iteration? I think that would be analagous to an infinite DO loop where every nth step I reset the counter.
2020-12-05T18:22:15Z White_Flame: aeth: thanks
2020-12-05T18:22:24Z White_Flame: mister_m: I don't think so
2020-12-05T18:22:39Z White_Flame: not as a builtin at least
2020-12-05T18:22:51Z White_Flame: obviously it "supports executing" code that does that accumulation & check ;)
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2020-12-05T18:29:00Z Bike: mister_m: yeah, no, you'd have do (loop for i = 0 then (mod (1+ i) n) when (zerop i) do ...) or the like i guess.
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2020-12-05T18:37:44Z mister_m: thanks
2020-12-05T18:41:48Z aeth: You could also do something similar with two loops
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2020-12-05T18:42:35Z White_Flame: or 1 loop with an additional FOR in it to run the every-n counter
2020-12-05T18:42:35Z aeth: Every nth iteration, if constant, is basically the same as doing (loop ... :do (progn (do-whatever) (loop ...))
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2020-12-05T18:42:52Z aeth: There are actually a lot of creative ways to do it
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2020-12-05T18:43:25Z johnjay: so as i understand it you can make system calls from c programs
2020-12-05T18:43:37Z johnjay: is there a way to do this in sbcl/CL or is that impossible?
2020-12-05T18:44:01Z White_Flame: sbcl has extra packages that expose things, or you use FFI to call C-interface stuff directly
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2020-12-05T18:44:34Z White_Flame: for instance with the former, sb-posix: has a bunch of stuff
2020-12-05T18:44:56Z White_Flame: (depending on how low level of "system call" you mean)
2020-12-05T18:47:20Z johnjay: like stuff in syscall.h
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2020-12-05T18:49:26Z Xach: johnjay: here's an example of how it could be done in cmucl, could be adapted. https://github.com/xach/cmucl-direct-syscalls/blob/master/src/compiler/x86/syscall-linux.lisp
2020-12-05T18:50:03Z Xach: I asked Doug for it when I thought I needed it - I never needed it, normal FFI interfaces sufficed for me.
2020-12-05T18:50:35Z Xach: johnjay: is there a particular syscall you want to access that is not otherwise available?
2020-12-05T18:51:04Z mister_m: aeth: I ended up doing two DO loops
2020-12-05T18:51:23Z johnjay: no i'm just asking on a general level
2020-12-05T18:51:38Z johnjay: it seems like something one should be able to do through the FFI but i wasn't sure
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2020-12-05T19:37:55Z Josh_2: I have found it quite humbling to do the Advent of Code and then compare my solution to Harlequins on github... needless to say I don't tend to find the optimal solution, especially today
2020-12-05T19:38:05Z Josh_2: (obv doing it in CL)
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2020-12-05T19:48:22Z rogersm: Do you have the link? I cannot find the repo
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2020-12-05T19:58:08Z Josh_2: Harlequins?
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2020-12-05T19:58:28Z Josh_2: Harleqin* actually oops
2020-12-05T19:58:48Z Josh_2: https://github.com/Harleqin/advent-of-code-2020
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2020-12-05T20:24:15Z lotuseater: the name Harleqin reminds me of an anime
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2020-12-05T20:32:21Z Josh_2: Reminds me of Batman
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2020-12-05T20:32:48Z surabax: Harlequin is the name of the company that used to be the developer of LispWorks
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2020-12-05T20:34:30Z lotuseater: cool to know
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2020-12-05T20:37:42Z johnjay: Josh_2: do you need a lot of libraries to solve the problems
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2020-12-05T20:37:52Z johnjay: or are they "elementary"
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2020-12-05T20:38:12Z johnjay: i.e. something you'd find in CLRS or something
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2020-12-05T21:17:48Z Josh_2: johnjay: you can use libraries but I personally haven't
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2020-12-05T22:08:20Z harlchen:  /leave
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2020-12-05T22:30:17Z phoe: goodbye harlchen
2020-12-05T22:34:20Z jrm: Hi.  I'm trying fix an issue with an OS package for stumpwm.  When stump is not already installed it works fine, but if stumpwm is already installed none of the sbclfasl files are built.  https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd-ports/blob/945296b7331c478f60c1fb077dc88ba8af7d7463/x11-wm/stumpwm/Makefile#L51-L61
2020-12-05T22:34:35Z jrm: Is there a way to unconditionally build everything?
2020-12-05T22:35:54Z phoe: jrm: try adding :force :t to the ASDF:OOS call
2020-12-05T22:36:12Z phoe: that tells ASDF to recompile all files unconditionally
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2020-12-05T22:37:55Z jrm: phoe: Thanks.  I updated the line in question to -eval "(asdf:oos :force :t 'asdf:compile-op :${PORTNAME})" \ but the result was the same.
2020-12-05T22:38:35Z jrm: If stumpwm is already installed it errors out with...
2020-12-05T22:38:36Z jrm: install: /wrkdirs/usr/ports/x11-wm/stumpwm/work/stumpwm-20.11/*.fasl: No such file or directory
2020-12-05T22:40:41Z jrm: Oh, one moment.  I think edited the wrong file.
2020-12-05T22:42:37Z jrm: That gives a new error:
2020-12-05T22:42:39Z jrm: Can't coerce :FORCE to a subclass of ASDF/OPERATION:OPERATION
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2020-12-05T22:44:42Z phoe: uhhh, wait a second...
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2020-12-05T22:45:24Z phoe: this should look like (asdf:oos 'asdf:compile-op :phoe-toolbox :force t)
2020-12-05T22:45:38Z phoe: so in your case, (asdf:oos 'asdf:compile-op :${PORTNAME} :force t)
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2020-12-05T22:51:23Z jrm: That looks good.  Before when stumpwm was already installed the compilation returned almost immediately.  Now it produces lots of output like when it's not installed, e.g., "; processing (DEFUN ENTER-INTERACTIVE-KEYMAP ...)", but the fasl files are still not generated.
2020-12-05T22:52:24Z Xach: joe "jrm" r. marshall??
2020-12-05T22:55:34Z jrm: No, different jrm.  If I were Joe Marshall I would probably know what I was doing. ;-)
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2020-12-05T23:50:26Z mfiano: Hmm, I wonder if lparallel does work-stealing
2020-12-05T23:52:04Z jrm: On FreeBSD, we have ${PREFIX}/lib/common-lisp/system-registry.  If I remove stumpwm.asd from this system-registry before building the second time it builds successfully, including all the fasl files.
2020-12-05T23:52:33Z jrm: I wonder if I can somehow skip this registry when invoking sbcl for the build?
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2020-12-06T00:07:21Z phoe: beach: are you aware of "Documenting Protocols in CLOS: Keeping the Promise of Reuse" by John Collins?
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2020-12-06T00:07:56Z phoe: I just found out about the 1993 book edited by A. Paepcke, "Object-Oriented Programming: The CLOS Perspective"
2020-12-06T00:08:04Z phoe: and I'm reading it
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2020-12-06T00:25:34Z lotuseater: phoe: and how is your impression of the book?
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2020-12-06T00:40:07Z phoe: lotuseater: none, it's 2 AM for me
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2020-12-06T00:40:10Z phoe: will say more tomorrow
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2020-12-06T00:41:07Z lotuseater: sleep well :)
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2020-12-06T00:42:57Z phoe: thanks <3
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2020-12-06T04:08:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-06T04:10:46Z beach: phoe: No, I wasn't aware of that.  I have the book, but haven't finished reading it.
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2020-12-06T08:14:09Z adlai wonders what exactly was meant earlier by a "desert island book", in the context of Common Lisp
2020-12-06T08:14:56Z oni-on-ion: "if you could take one [CL] book with you to a desert island, which would it be?"
2020-12-06T08:15:06Z oni-on-ion: with the implication that one may be there forever
2020-12-06T08:15:17Z oni-on-ion: *deserted island
2020-12-06T08:15:19Z adlai: by my understanding, even just the ANSI standard is too complex for a single book to encompass the whole thing, and answering "the ANSI specification, duh" is obviously a bannable offense
2020-12-06T08:15:52Z oni-on-ion: i would say something like "the source code for the implementation in question, give or take some hyperspec"
2020-12-06T08:16:14Z adlai: that's actually a good answer; I don't think the "desert island" question typically expects that your answer has an ISBN.
2020-12-06T08:16:22Z oni-on-ion: cant really know more than that about a piece of UI-less software that depends little on external resources/assets
2020-12-06T08:16:33Z oni-on-ion: deserted* =)
2020-12-06T08:16:39Z oni-on-ion: & true
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2020-12-06T08:57:27Z edgar-rft: on a deserted island it should be a thin book because you probably won't have much time to read before you die
2020-12-06T08:59:27Z moon-child: maybe there are coconuts
2020-12-06T08:59:41Z moon-child: and peanuts
2020-12-06T08:59:47Z moon-child: and water filters
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2020-12-06T09:06:28Z flip214: coconuts are more dangerous than sharks... and peanuts too, I guess. Haven't heard of someone suffocating on a water filter, though, so these sound safe.
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2020-12-06T09:15:11Z adlai: well that is one of the other possible interpretations for "desert island book", although it is more often called a cheatsheet
2020-12-06T09:15:54Z adlai: essentially ,a book that would be maximally helpful for someone who is unfamiliar with CL, or perhaps hasn't used it in decades, and must work without Internet access.
2020-12-06T09:18:05Z adlai: although, those are usually best when they are created in reference to another system, that is treated as familiar; or at least, limited to a specific context (e.g., the condition sysem, format strings, care and feeding of the generalized lambda list, etc)
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2020-12-06T09:20:05Z adlai: fwiw, the context from which I am familiar with the "desert island provision" question is one of aesthetic quality, rather than usefulness as a tool; thus the need for a disambiguation.
2020-12-06T09:21:42Z Nilby: I only read the draft ANSI spec, partially, and SICP maybe 20 years prior. That's kept me going for 15 years or so.
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2020-12-06T12:46:14Z phoe: There's a fundraiser for porting SBCL to Apple Silicon - https://fundrazr.com/61kPgb
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2020-12-06T13:05:34Z jackdaniel: is there an apple device running, I don't know, on coal?
2020-12-06T13:07:08Z ck_: jackdaniel: many such cases, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Russia
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2020-12-06T13:07:52Z Nilby: I was skeptical for a second, because "who's gonna do it?", but then I saw it's "let get Stas a macbook", so actually, yeah that'll work.
2020-12-06T13:07:55Z jackdaniel: Apple Bureya Dam :-)
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2020-12-06T13:11:14Z phoe: jackdaniel: I'll get mildly worried the moment I see Apple Oxygen
2020-12-06T13:11:21Z phoe: until then, I'm okay
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2020-12-06T13:12:12Z jackdaniel: my remark was more about apple's coxcombry with that name
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2020-12-06T13:12:28Z phoe: so is mine
2020-12-06T13:12:47Z phoe: ;; except mine also contains overtones of megacorporate worry
2020-12-06T13:21:07Z ck_: don't worry we'll have crowdfunding to buy someone a few scuba bottles to port breathing to the new architecture in that case. Or maybe some Draegers, you know, better get the top model
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2020-12-06T13:26:21Z Nilby: Apple silicon "Runs a tight chip." they say. So does this mean the water sensor won't trigger and void your service contract?
2020-12-06T13:27:10Z ck_: I'm pretty sure there are no water exposure sensors on the wafers
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2020-12-06T14:06:06Z Josh_2: Is there an built in function I can use to find the common elements between a list of strings?
2020-12-06T14:06:23Z phoe: common elements, what do you mean?
2020-12-06T14:06:33Z phoe: could you give some example input and output?
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2020-12-06T14:10:04Z Nilby: Josh_2: Do you mean something like (intersection '("foo" "bar" "baz") '("this" "is" "foo") :test #'equal) => ("foo")
2020-12-06T14:10:05Z aeth: You can probably use SEARCH or a regex library like cl-ppcre, if that's what you mean.
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2020-12-06T14:12:59Z aeth: heh, I guess that was very vague if Nilby interpreted it as "common strings" and I interpreted it as "common substrings"
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2020-12-06T14:14:46Z Nilby: Playing the game of "guess that vague function"
2020-12-06T14:15:52Z Josh_2: aeth: common characters between strings
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2020-12-06T14:18:47Z aeth: just character counts? that can be a hash table in a hash table (with the string one using #'EQUAL as the :test)
2020-12-06T14:20:41Z aeth: (you wouldn't even need an inner string hash table if it's just present/not instead of counting them)
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2020-12-06T14:38:06Z Josh_2: aeth: yes just character counts
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2020-12-06T14:50:50Z Josh_2: aeth: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2182#2182 this is what I came up with
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2020-12-06T15:43:42Z aeth: Josh_2: just at a glance, if you replace the outer LOOP with a MAP NIL then you make it generic across all sequences
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2020-12-06T15:44:35Z aeth: Josh_2: And I think you can remove the branch (where you setf to 1 instead of incf) if you set the default value (the optional 3rd argument) of GETHASH to 0
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2020-12-06T15:45:07Z aeth: Josh_2: i.e. (incf (gethash char chars 0))
2020-12-06T15:45:19Z Josh_2: Oh I didn't know you could do that
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2020-12-06T15:47:52Z aeth: it appears to work
2020-12-06T15:47:54Z aeth: (let ((h (make-hash-table))) (incf (gethash :foo h 0)) (gethash :foo h)) => 1
2020-12-06T15:48:05Z Josh_2: Yep
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2020-12-06T15:48:33Z Josh_2: Thanks for pointing those improvements out :)
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2020-12-06T15:48:52Z aeth: you're welcome
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2020-12-06T15:55:09Z banjomet: so there are 443 people on #lisp, and only 316 on #clojure, yet I thought clojure was the popular one?
2020-12-06T15:56:01Z banjomet: on reddit /r/lisp has 29,992 and /r/clojure has 24,653
2020-12-06T15:57:03Z lotuseater: and if you go by statistics one of the best paid langs
2020-12-06T15:57:52Z jackdaniel: I think that statistics would be different for a channels #clojure-nand-lisp (and vice versa)
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2020-12-06T15:59:25Z jackdaniel: s/a //
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2020-12-06T16:01:07Z banjomet: the one thing I really want to use lisp for is js stuff, and I have been doing research and it seems like jscl is only a recent endeavor that is missing a little bit to be complete. that's the only thing pushing me towards clojure (really clojurescript).
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2020-12-06T16:03:23Z banjomet: using the debugger for js-world would be so awesome
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2020-12-06T16:04:09Z lotuseater: isn't there also a compiler named JACL?
2020-12-06T16:05:02Z aeth: banjomet: My guess is... More people want to use Common Lisp (and do so as a hobby), but more people get paid to use Clojure (and so Clojure will probably be more popular on things like StackOverflow)
2020-12-06T16:05:25Z aeth: I, for one, wouldn't want to be tied to Oracle's JVM...
2020-12-06T16:06:07Z aeth: (I guess ClojureScript is a thing, though.)
2020-12-06T16:06:30Z aeth: banjomet: As for CL in the browser, my guess is that you won't get a complete one until WASM is capable of hosting a complete one.
2020-12-06T16:07:09Z lotuseater: have no idea, but what if using ABCL to wrap things around clojurescript for using the debugger or something else?
2020-12-06T16:08:50Z banjomet: aeth, why would you do that instead of using the vm for js? I see projects like that and I guess I just don't understand what prompts it.
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2020-12-06T16:11:20Z aeth: banjomet: There are a dozen or so complete Scheme->JS because Scheme is small so a merely "complete" Scheme doesn't give you much. There are two or so incomplete CL->JS because CL is large, so it's hard to be complete. ClojureScript is a bit of an exception as far as this trend goes, but you probably can't use (m)any Clojure libraries with it.
2020-12-06T16:11:53Z aeth: You could probably implement enough of a subset of CL in JS to bootstrap the rest, but that'd still be a lot of work.
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2020-12-06T16:12:51Z aeth: Now, a WASM CL could even give you some degree of CFFI to C-on-WASM, so you would be able to run almost any library, even ones with C dependencies.
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2020-12-06T16:13:10Z lotuseater: it's paradox JS was first prototyped in CL
2020-12-06T16:13:25Z aeth: lotuseater: well, it's easier to write a small language in a large language than the other way around
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2020-12-06T16:13:46Z aeth: JS-in-CL or Scheme-in-CL or Lua-in-CL, etc., would all be way easier than the other direction.
2020-12-06T16:14:58Z MichaelRaskin: ECMAScript6 is _also_ not too small. of course…
2020-12-06T16:15:01Z lotuseater: yes you're right aeth :) but some of the inconsistencies of the running language let me question it has been designed by someone who knows computer science
2020-12-06T16:15:19Z aeth: MichaelRaskin: Well, yes, but the JS-in-CL is very ancient, to the point where writing one from scratch would probably be a worthwhile project.
2020-12-06T16:15:24Z aeth: Probably 10+ years
2020-12-06T16:15:59Z aeth: The Scheme in CL (excluding my own incomplete project, of course) is Pseudoscheme and was an incomplete R4RS from the early 90s (or late 80s?) when Scheme was even smaller than today.
2020-12-06T16:16:12Z aeth: I don't think there's a Lua in CL, but it should be an easy project, to the point where I might write one at some point.
2020-12-06T16:16:15Z banjomet: yeah but the size is the main reason. instead of huge images you would be shipping around incredibly small things.
2020-12-06T16:16:29Z banjomet: I think, I am playing around with jscl right now to verify
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2020-12-06T16:18:02Z aeth: (I mentioned Lua because there is a Lisp-in-Lua, but it's far from being as featureful as a full CL implementation)
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2020-12-06T16:19:03Z aeth: banjomet: Yes, but the small size of something like JSCL is at the cost of full standards conformance, or at the very least conformance to de facto standards that everyone follows, but that aren't strictly required (like having octet arrays)
2020-12-06T16:19:34Z aeth: (every major implementation except CLISP also has single-float and double-float arrays, which would also be sacrificed in a CL->JS implementation)
2020-12-06T16:20:40Z aeth: Ideally, you'd probably have both, using a simple Lispy JS to do the JS parts that WASM can't do, while relying on the full CL image for most of the logic.
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2020-12-06T16:32:26Z aeth: "Lispy JS" is more of what Parenscript is trying to do, though, not JSCL
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2020-12-06T16:38:31Z banjomet: jscl checks in at 1.6 megabytes but I am having trouble figuring out how to run the ansi tests
2020-12-06T16:38:39Z banjomet: for the js compiled output
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2020-12-06T16:42:20Z aeth: Imo, someone needs to write more-than-ansi tests for all of the extra things someone expects from an implementation...
2020-12-06T16:42:26Z aeth: e.g. (mapcar (lambda (x) (alexandria:type= x (upgraded-array-element-type x))) '((unsigned-byte 8) (signed-byte 8) (unsigned-byte 16) (signed-byte 16) (unsigned-byte 32) (signed-byte 32) double-float single-float))
2020-12-06T16:43:27Z aeth: There are other, harder, things, like... does DECLARE type check? Does :type in slots in DEFSTRUCT typecheck on creation and setting? In DEFCLASS?
2020-12-06T16:43:44Z aeth: Technically, my test also tests that single-float and double-float are distinct, so that doesn't have to be tested.
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2020-12-06T16:44:39Z aeth: maybe a "large fixnum" test, too, e.g. (>= (log (- most-positive-fixnum most-negative-fixnum) 2) 60)
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2020-12-06T16:46:55Z aeth: If there's no reliable unicode test, maybe a combination of (> (log char-code-limit 2) 8) and a few code-char/char-code to verify a Unicode mapping.
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2020-12-06T17:25:29Z thmprover: OK, I'm starting to wonder if I'm not using package names effectively.
2020-12-06T17:26:06Z thmprover: For example, instead of defining constants prefixed with "axiom-", I could have an "axiom" package, and define axioms within it.
2020-12-06T17:26:24Z thmprover: So instead of "axiom-add-implies", I'd have "axiom:add-implies".
2020-12-06T17:28:38Z beach: Definitely.
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2020-12-06T17:31:08Z Alfr: thmprover, not sure axiom is a good name for that package. There's a CAS name Axiom in CL and i suspect that it provides an axiom package.
2020-12-06T17:32:02Z beach: Ah, yes, choose a unique name.  And then use package-local nicknames.
2020-12-06T17:32:06Z thmprover: Alfr: true, it's just the example I'm looking at, at the moment; I need to distinguish different foundations, so I'll probably use a different name.
2020-12-06T17:32:22Z thmprover: "fol-axiom" is probably the package I'll be using
2020-12-06T17:32:23Z beach: For example, I prefix all my SICL package names with SICL-.
2020-12-06T17:32:57Z beach: But I use ENV as a local nickname for SICL-ENVIRONMENT.
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2020-12-06T17:34:53Z phoe: thmprover: (defpackage my-package (:use ...) (:local-nicknames (#:a #:absolutely-long-package-name-that-conflicts-with-nothing)))
2020-12-06T17:35:02Z phoe: then, in my-package, (a:foo ...)
2020-12-06T17:35:11Z phoe: package local nicknames are <3
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2020-12-06T17:52:30Z pyc: What exactly is the 'ielm-mode-hook? I have added 'enable-paredit-mode to this and only this hook. I want to know where exactly I can see the paredit working when bound to this hook?
2020-12-06T17:53:24Z mfiano: thmprover: Yes, it's important to use package names that nobody else is using, so that there are no conflicts if people depend on your code. 2 packages of the same name cannot coexist in a Lisp image, which is what package-local nicknames solve, assuming your global name is unique.
2020-12-06T17:53:53Z mfiano: pyc: Try #emacs
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2020-12-06T17:56:27Z thmprover: Yes, unique package names are good, I was just using a minimal example.
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2020-12-06T18:01:23Z aeth: phoe: the only problem with that is that a is usually alexandria
2020-12-06T18:03:02Z mfiano: That's not a problem. It's local
2020-12-06T18:03:26Z phoe: aeth: what mfiano said
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2020-12-06T18:03:36Z phoe: call it alpn or whatever
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2020-12-06T18:03:51Z mfiano: One may indeed want a to be used for something else if it is more ubiquitous
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2020-12-06T18:07:25Z aeth: phoe: imo, one char should be reserved for util libraries, since you don't really need more context than that.
2020-12-06T18:07:30Z aeth: with a being alexandria.
2020-12-06T18:07:37Z aeth: Of course, you can do whatever you want, but just because you can, doesn't mean you should
2020-12-06T18:07:39Z mfiano: That is an odd restriction
2020-12-06T18:08:17Z phoe: aeth: you know
2020-12-06T18:08:20Z phoe: your package, your rules
2020-12-06T18:08:29Z phoe: that's the whole point :D
2020-12-06T18:09:00Z phoe: that's not an invitation to write unreadable code; more like, make full use of local nicknames.
2020-12-06T18:09:23Z aeth: I mean, you can name variables whatever you want without conflict because of packages, but there are generally are style guidelines for those, too
2020-12-06T18:09:37Z phoe: there are no guidelines for PLNs; is it time for creating any?
2020-12-06T18:09:45Z aeth: If I see "a", I'll assume "alexandria", in general
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2020-12-06T18:09:59Z aeth: Probably the rest of the one char ones are safe. Probably.
2020-12-06T18:10:10Z phoe: aeth: it could be a for aurum
2020-12-06T18:10:15Z phoe: which stands for golden-utils
2020-12-06T18:10:24Z aeth: way less common, though
2020-12-06T18:11:10Z phoe: with PLNs, one cannot assume anymore
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2020-12-06T18:11:12Z mfiano: I personally use U for golden-utils (because it re-exports alexandria), and currently A for my "Actor" package
2020-12-06T18:11:16Z phoe: that's the whole point
2020-12-06T18:11:18Z mfiano: So to each their own
2020-12-06T18:12:05Z aeth: phoe: I mean, if I see "i", which can exist because of package-local-variable-names and lexical scope, I'm still going to assume it's an integer being iterated over in a loop
2020-12-06T18:12:28Z phoe: aeth: uh wait a second
2020-12-06T18:12:33Z phoe: that would be a package prefix
2020-12-06T18:12:37Z phoe: so i:i or something?...
2020-12-06T18:12:37Z mfiano: Before I see any package qualifier, I first consult the package instead of blindly assuming.
2020-12-06T18:12:42Z phoe: ^
2020-12-06T18:12:56Z phoe: or just M-. it and see where that's from
2020-12-06T18:12:57Z aeth: phoe: my point is, a:foo to me contextually means something for the same reason that foo:i contextually means something
2020-12-06T18:13:04Z aeth: even though it can, technically, be anything
2020-12-06T18:13:25Z aeth: s/foo:i/foo::i/
2020-12-06T18:13:33Z phoe: aeth: yes, I see; still, PLNs are the reason why "A" is not just another nickname for Alexandria
2020-12-06T18:14:07Z phoe: they're package-local, so my instinct is to see what they refer to in the package before I assume.
2020-12-06T18:14:41Z aeth: phoe: Yes, but, a:foo can be anything in the context of package foobar just like foobar::i can be anything in the context of package foobar, but just because it can be anything doesn't mean it will be anything.
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2020-12-06T18:14:56Z aeth: Technically possible vs. convention
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2020-12-06T18:15:39Z phoe: yes, I understand
2020-12-06T18:15:53Z phoe: and I have to admit that "A" is my usual PLN for Alexandria
2020-12-06T18:16:03Z phoe: but that's in my case, other people gonna have a different configuration.
2020-12-06T18:16:47Z aeth: Since alexandria is by far the most commonly used A package name, I would, all things being equal, assume A=ALEXANDRIA and it would be unusual in other contexts, just like FOO::I would be unusual if you used it for something other than an iterated integer
2020-12-06T18:16:53Z aeth: Although, yes, you can do it
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2020-12-06T18:17:23Z aeth: And there are some other reasonable niche cases where i might make sense, e.g. some mathy stuff that use i j k in the original mathy context, rather than iteration
2020-12-06T18:18:52Z aeth: I don't think there are any other single-character cases where such a package local nickname would dominate like a for alexandria. Maybe, for two characters, "re" for "cl-ppcre" since there's only really one popular regex library.
2020-12-06T18:19:17Z phoe: φ
2020-12-06T18:19:23Z phoe: ;; for phoe-toolbox, obviously
2020-12-06T18:19:34Z mfiano does not use alexandria directly so has the freedom to use such a common character for more appropriate packages.
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2020-12-06T18:19:47Z aeth: phoe: nah, that's for calculating the golden ratio
2020-12-06T18:19:58Z phoe: but yeah, if golden-utils reexports alexandria then his a: is like alexandria on steroids
2020-12-06T18:19:58Z Inline: metallic ratios
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2020-12-06T18:20:06Z phoe: aeth: I mean like a package name instead of a function name
2020-12-06T18:20:12Z phoe: φ:φ would calculate the golden ratio
2020-12-06T18:20:16Z aeth: right
2020-12-06T18:20:33Z mfiano: I also shadow global nicknames with pln's in some cases, which works.
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2020-12-06T18:20:39Z Inline: not sure if i'll discover ametallic ratios
2020-12-06T18:20:43Z Inline: plastic ratio
2020-12-06T18:20:44Z Inline: lol
2020-12-06T18:20:44Z aeth: phoe: while φ:+φ+ would be the golden ratio in double precision
2020-12-06T18:20:46Z mfiano: Such as verbose defining a global nickname of V. That gets in the way frequently
2020-12-06T18:20:52Z phoe: aeth: yes
2020-12-06T18:20:54Z lotuseater: don't forget φ is also used for Euler's phi function :)
2020-12-06T18:21:00Z aeth: lotuseater: that's euler:
2020-12-06T18:21:06Z aeth: sorry, euler:φ
2020-12-06T18:21:06Z phoe: lotuseater: well we have a conflict, euler:φ and golden-ratio:φ
2020-12-06T18:21:18Z phoe: and there's φ:φ which signals an error because it's ambiguous
2020-12-06T18:21:40Z phoe: mfiano: yes, verbose might want to remove it someday
2020-12-06T18:22:02Z lotuseater: oh there's a package named euler?
2020-12-06T18:22:04Z mfiano: I think shinmera said something about too late to do that now with backward-compat and all
2020-12-06T18:22:13Z aeth: lotuseater: I mean, we're joking, but yes
2020-12-06T18:22:26Z aeth: lotuseater: I have a euler-lib to make all of my Project Euler solutions trivial
2020-12-06T18:22:27Z lotuseater: :D
2020-12-06T18:22:48Z aeth: It's not public, though, because I literally just use the Project Euler solutions as the unit tests.
2020-12-06T18:23:09Z lotuseater: i should port more of my hs math libs sometime
2020-12-06T18:23:17Z aeth: high school math?
2020-12-06T18:23:38Z lotuseater: funny :D no, Haskell. some "higher" mathematics
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2020-12-06T18:23:53Z aeth: yes... the context was name conflicts so I couldn't resist
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2020-12-06T18:24:26Z lotuseater: hehe okay
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2020-12-06T18:25:27Z lotuseater: but the most is also for project euler, hope to finish some more exercises till end of the year
2020-12-06T18:25:38Z lotuseater: of someone wants we could exchange keys
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2020-12-06T18:31:58Z phoe: mfiano: https://github.com/Shinmera/verbose/issues/5
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2020-12-06T18:32:01Z phoe: so, actually
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2020-12-06T18:37:28Z phoe: Xach: I think we will need your assistance with this one
2020-12-06T18:38:44Z Xach: You can build things as well as I can!
2020-12-06T18:38:50Z Xach: Possibly better!
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2020-12-06T18:40:23Z mfiano: I think he wants you to try rebuilding all of Quicklisp with that modification to Verbose, to get your pretty failure report :)
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2020-12-06T18:41:34Z Bike: minion?
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2020-12-06T18:41:43Z Bike: hm. phoe left me some notes but they're not appearing
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2020-12-06T18:41:55Z Bike: ah, "memo for Bike:"
2020-12-06T18:42:21Z dbotton__: I asked this once before but maybe someone else knows, is there a way to launch a task with lparallels that disregards its result? (Ie just like a make-thread but uses one of lparallel's worker threads)
2020-12-06T18:44:33Z phoe: Xach: !
2020-12-06T18:44:45Z phoe: how can I build things the way you build things though?
2020-12-06T18:44:51Z lotuseater: speaking of lparallel, how much threads do you normally declare for the kernel?
2020-12-06T18:45:34Z phoe: dbotton__: I don't really know; I've always just done the wait-for-result thingy or however it is called
2020-12-06T18:45:51Z phoe: lotuseater: as many as required; not more than logical cores on my machine
2020-12-06T18:46:36Z phoe: also, mfiano's right - I want to see how many patches will be required and to what repositories when we incompatibly change Verbose
2020-12-06T18:49:06Z Bike: well, whatevs. phoe, i don't know if this is your day off or not, but for when it's not, unwinding through every frame is like, fine, with ZCEH. that's not the slow part
2020-12-06T18:49:25Z phoe: Bike: well it was supposed to be
2020-12-06T18:49:30Z phoe: maybe we should move it off #lisp though
2020-12-06T18:49:45Z lotuseater: yeah more than physical wouldn't be parallel
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2020-12-06T18:51:10Z Xach: phoe: you could look at systems.txt and see who uses verbose. then change verbose, and try to load each of those things.
2020-12-06T18:53:02Z phoe: Xach: OK. This sounds good
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2020-12-06T19:00:57Z dbotton__: Lotuseater, ideally 1 worker task per core
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2020-12-06T19:18:16Z phoe: where/query gendl
2020-12-06T19:18:20Z phoe: uh I mean
2020-12-06T19:18:31Z phoe: nice weather, isn't it
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2020-12-06T19:25:32Z francogrex: hi do you think creating executables from lisp would be easy? (I know it's feasible, I have no doubt): https://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html
2020-12-06T19:26:07Z phoe: francogrex: executables? what do you mean?
2020-12-06T19:26:22Z phoe: it is easy, use uiop:dump or Shinmera's Deploy for portable creation of executables
2020-12-06T19:26:37Z phoe: they are not going to be this tiny
2020-12-06T19:26:49Z phoe: but the process is there and has been battle-tested many times
2020-12-06T19:29:55Z francogrex: phoe, I don't mean create executables from CL programs, but to directly write bytes
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2020-12-06T19:30:24Z francogrex: much likes nasm/fasm or gcc does
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2020-12-06T19:36:16Z phoe: francogrex: oh wait, you mean, directly write memory and make it executable?
2020-12-06T19:36:39Z phoe: I know one person who had some success with that - writing code as bytes, making this memory executable, calling this function via CFFI
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2020-12-06T19:38:43Z francogrex: lol, one person, a legend!
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2020-12-06T19:39:56Z phoe: eh
2020-12-06T19:40:02Z phoe: more like they were toying with it
2020-12-06T19:40:17Z phoe: there's little use for doing that inside Lisp
2020-12-06T19:40:20Z phoe: what's your use case?
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2020-12-06T19:44:57Z francogrex: phoe: no use, just fun
2020-12-06T19:46:18Z francogrex: but phoe, FYI, I did myself write this: https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Machine_code#Common_Lisp
2020-12-06T19:47:27Z francogrex: but i want now a standalone
2020-12-06T19:47:38Z francogrex: self executable
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2020-12-06T19:47:47Z phoe: a self executable doing what?
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2020-12-06T19:48:48Z phoe: also this rosetta code example has poor style for global variables
2020-12-06T19:49:00Z phoe: they *really* should have earmuffs
2020-12-06T19:49:55Z francogrex: I wrote it when i was still a toddler
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2020-12-06T21:23:21Z Josh_2: Just took a look at the jonathan json parser, a single 300 line function
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2020-12-06T21:26:23Z no-defun-allowed also wonders how @doc "..." (defun ...) is easier than (defun name (args ...) "..." ...)
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2020-12-06T21:44:52Z oni-on-ion: personally the preference is to document before declaration/definition of said function
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2020-12-06T21:45:46Z Xach: I'm suddenly wondering if enough people are making their DO macros have nil blocks and implicit tagbodies
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2020-12-06T21:55:53Z banjomet: francoqrex: I know you aren't here, but you should check out https://pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/
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2020-12-06T22:07:56Z pfdietz: Xach: ansi-test does test that DO (and related) have implicit tagbodies and NIL blocks.
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2020-12-06T22:15:55Z Xach: pfdietz: user-defined DOFOO/DO-FOO should as well!
2020-12-06T22:16:14Z Xach: and they should support declarations at the head of the body
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2020-12-06T22:16:57Z pfdietz: Hmm.  I wonder if ITERATE supports a tagbody.
2020-12-06T22:17:59Z pfdietz: It does not.
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2020-12-06T22:36:53Z _death: I usually set up a nil block.. but no tagbody
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2020-12-06T22:38:57Z phoe: (defmacro do-nothing () `(block nil (tagbody)))
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2020-12-06T22:50:54Z Alfr wonders how often do's implicit tagbody is actually used.
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2020-12-06T23:11:36Z Xach: Alfr: 1000 times per second in some environments
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2020-12-06T23:16:13Z Alfr: Hmpf. Really should've asked for the portion of DOs which have tags with corresponding GOs.
2020-12-06T23:17:24Z Xach: That would be an interesting statistic. I don't use it that often but when you want to skip or retry an interation it is great to have available.
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2020-12-06T23:17:34Z Xach: (interation?)
2020-12-06T23:21:13Z Alfr: Essentially what most other languages call break?
2020-12-06T23:22:04Z Xach: Alfr: yes, but potentially way more flexible.
2020-12-06T23:22:22Z Alfr: Was thinking of this before. But also did never miss this in CL.
2020-12-06T23:22:23Z _death: break would be return.. maybe continue (go end-of-body)
2020-12-06T23:22:41Z Alfr: _death, you're right. :)
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2020-12-06T23:29:42Z Xach: DOLIST + WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART makes it easy to have a processing loop with easy options to "skip this one" or "retry this one"
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2020-12-07T00:24:20Z mfiano: I vaguely recall something about lambda's not being compiled. Is this correct?
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2020-12-07T00:27:37Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think that's true.
2020-12-07T00:27:56Z no-defun-allowed: When you compile a function, the functions inside it are also compiled.
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2020-12-07T00:31:27Z lotuseater: ah now i remember a question i have: if i use LABELS instead of FLET for closures that are not recursive and do not use each other, is this less efficient?
2020-12-07T00:32:32Z mfiano: Ok, thanks. I wonder what I'm thinking of
2020-12-07T00:34:32Z mfiano: That depends on the compiler. There is nothing in Common Lisp that makes it so
2020-12-07T00:35:22Z moon-child: mfiano: (disassemble (lambda (x y) (+ x y))) works fine and gives reasonable output for me
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2020-12-07T00:38:20Z no-defun-allowed: lotuseater: Probably not.
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2020-12-07T00:46:48Z jrm: I asked about this recently, but am still struggling to find a solution.  I'm building an OS package using (asdf:oos 'asdf:compile-op :stumpwm :force t), but if the stumpwm package is already install, the fasl files won't be generated in the stage directory and the package build fails.  I figured out that if the stumpwm lisp package isn't loaded, then the fasl files will be unconditionally loaded, but that difficult to ensure and causes
2020-12-07T00:46:49Z jrm: other problems.
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2020-12-07T00:47:52Z jrm: Is there a way to ensure that the fasl files are always built, even if the stumpwm lisp package is loaded?
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2020-12-07T00:51:39Z jrm: If there is a better place to ask this type of question, suggestions would be welcome.
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2020-12-07T00:52:26Z fc2020apt[m]: test. i may ask more detailed questions later as soon as i feel ready to start programming, but i've been recommended to learn lisp. i don't know why but it looks far simpler than like C and i'm losing motivation to program these days
2020-12-07T00:54:20Z Xach: jrm: i don't know the answer to your issue - i wonder if there is something stumpwm does specifically relating to how it compiles.
2020-12-07T00:54:33Z Xach: jrm: so maybe a stumpwm forum or list could help. i don't know where that is, though.
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2020-12-07T01:02:45Z jrm: Xach: Cheers.  I'm building things a little differently than stumpwm proper does.  They generate a 60MB bundle instead of the fasl files.  But after two days of messing around, I think I just now realize what's going on.  The fasl files are indeed being regenerated, but they are placed in a different location depending on whether stumpwm is loaded.
2020-12-07T01:02:55Z jrm: So maybe something with ASDF_OUTPUT_TRANSLATIONS ?
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2020-12-07T02:03:11Z Xach got the octree quantizer working and has written his first gif from a colorful vecto image!
2020-12-07T02:05:13Z Nilby: Nice. octrees are cool
2020-12-07T02:05:36Z Xach makes a quick animation
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2020-12-07T02:20:55Z Xach: https://xach.com/tmp/anim.gif
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2020-12-07T02:24:10Z Xach: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2184 has the code (much more behind the scenes to support it, but that made the animation)
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2020-12-07T02:28:35Z Nilby: It even works in my viewer. But I'm wondering if I could cut out the gif and just run your animation in real time.
2020-12-07T02:28:40Z Xach: I had something similar long ago, but because I didn't have any ideas about how to quantize the color palette of a PNG, I stuck to grayscale, which is a little boring.
2020-12-07T02:29:27Z Nilby: As you probably know, if you do some hideous tiling thing you can get true color in gifs.
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2020-12-07T02:29:58Z jrm: asdf output translation are not for the faint of heart.  Searching shows lots of confusion.
2020-12-07T02:30:07Z Xach: Nilby: right now my 2d drawing stuff is very graphics-file oriented, so it is not so easy to adapt to direct display. I hope to change that in the future.
2020-12-07T02:31:12Z Xach: Visualizing animations by roundtripping through GIF is inefficient
2020-12-07T02:32:10Z Xach: Anyway, I have started following some cool geometric gif artists and they have inspired me to try to make some myself, and of course I want to use my CL libraries to do it.
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2020-12-07T02:34:12Z Nilby: I have a collection of awesome geometric gif art, which is partially why I wrote a gif viewer. My favorite ones can give you some kind of math intuitions.
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2020-12-07T02:52:49Z lotuseater: how is the situation of void safety (aka null-pointer dereferencing) in CL?
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2020-12-07T03:38:52Z no-defun-allowed: You can't make arbitrary pointers without CFFI or unsafe code, so quite good.
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2020-12-07T03:40:00Z lotuseater: yeah :)
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2020-12-07T03:41:10Z fe[nl]ix: lotuseater: code compiled with SAFETY 0 can go awry and corrupt the image
2020-12-07T03:42:32Z lotuseater: yes safety is for some serious stuff much more important than perfomance
2020-12-07T03:43:05Z lotuseater: i read on the Eiffel website and it states: "Eiffel is the only modern, widely available programming language that has solved null pointer dereferencing once and for all."
2020-12-07T03:47:20Z fe[nl]ix: its author is not very honest
2020-12-07T03:47:26Z lotuseater: but i think one can have very safe, elegant AND performant programs with CL or Haskell, Rust, Ada. or fault tolerant with built in to the language, see Erlang
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2020-12-07T03:55:41Z moon-child: I mean, bascially all ml dialects are safe, performant, and lead to robust code.  Haskell, rust, ocaml, sml, f#, ats...
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2020-12-07T03:56:00Z davros: are you calling rust an ML dialect
2020-12-07T03:56:23Z moon-child: all of rust's good ideas come from ocaml
2020-12-07T03:56:26Z davros: it is a little ML inspired isn't it , but i woulnd't go that far
2020-12-07T03:56:57Z davros:  i gather the first rust compiler was written in ML ? (or ocaml? not sure of the difference)
2020-12-07T03:57:30Z moon-child: rust isn't a great language, but the influence is definitely there.  And yeah before bootstrap their compiler was in ocaml
2020-12-07T03:58:00Z davros: depends on goals.. i think rust is amazing (as a c++ replacement)
2020-12-07T03:58:36Z davros: i place a big dividing line between "things that can replace C++ in it's nichces , i.e. no runtime GC etc" and everything else
2020-12-07T03:58:37Z moon-child: sure.  Rust is an acceptable implementation of c++.  The question is, when do you need a c++ replacement?
2020-12-07T03:59:11Z davros: most people dont need it, thats true - but certain niches remain for it IMO
2020-12-07T03:59:25Z davros: embeded, gamedev , probably more
2020-12-07T03:59:30Z no-defun-allowed: "We believe that it is the case that common SML idioms tend to work better under GC than under regions." - http://www.mlton.org/Regions
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2020-12-07T03:59:38Z moon-child: davros: my main beef with rust is https://redd.it/h0myd0
2020-12-07T04:00:22Z moon-child: davros: gamedev can work around gc (or use rc) and frequently wants regions explicit regions anyway.  Embedded you don't need the complexity - c is fine
2020-12-07T04:00:31Z moon-child: s/regions explicit regions/explicit regions/
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2020-12-07T04:01:58Z no-defun-allowed: Standard ML also has exceptions.
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2020-12-07T04:01:59Z davros: i've heard the claim that gamedev *could* use gc, but all the engine people gravitate back toward c++
2020-12-07T04:02:16Z oni-on-ion: depends indie vs. triple-A
2020-12-07T04:02:19Z davros: "the big resources are static" "there isn't much tracing for the GC"
2020-12-07T04:02:29Z davros: yeah indie i can well imagine getting by
2020-12-07T04:02:34Z no-defun-allowed: If you don't allocate, then there is indeed nothing to GC.
2020-12-07T04:02:36Z moon-child: unity is the most popular game engine out there
2020-12-07T04:02:47Z davros: and of course GC didn't stop minecraft entertaining everyone
2020-12-07T04:02:53Z oni-on-ion: AAA are generally in competition, like hollywood or youtube
2020-12-07T04:02:54Z lotuseater: what about unreal?
2020-12-07T04:03:06Z no-defun-allowed: GC pauses are only mildly annoying while playing Minecraft, and I obliterated those by using an incremental collector.
2020-12-07T04:03:22Z moon-child: and, high-quality concurrent GCs are fairly new.  But as of just a couple of years ago, java (and all jvm languages) have a GC with heapsize-independent pause times <1ms
2020-12-07T04:03:30Z oni-on-ion: no-defun-allowed, did you let the devs know that
2020-12-07T04:03:36Z lotuseater: and in unity you have to see sharp *urgs*
2020-12-07T04:04:03Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: I have not, but I feel it would be common knowledge to "just use ZGC"
2020-12-07T04:04:19Z moon-child: but anyway, reference counting is an acceptable form of GC which the c++ engines do frequently use
2020-12-07T04:04:26Z no-defun-allowed: Or Shenandoah cause ZGC crashes on my Raspberry Pi; but there the main cause of lag is world generation.
2020-12-07T04:04:32Z oni-on-ion: yay RC =)
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2020-12-07T04:04:45Z davros: just wondering if i should mess with an embedded lisp in a little engine i'm writing now
2020-12-07T04:04:48Z oni-on-ion: what Pi do you have ndf?
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2020-12-07T04:05:02Z moon-child: davros: do it!
2020-12-07T04:05:07Z no-defun-allowed: A Raspberry Pi 4 with 4GB of memory.
2020-12-07T04:05:13Z moon-child: my engine is in d, but embeds a little scheme.  It's been really nice
2020-12-07T04:05:16Z davros: its a recurring itch
2020-12-07T04:05:16Z oni-on-ion: noices
2020-12-07T04:05:32Z davros: not entirely sure what i even need an embedded language for lo
2020-12-07T04:05:33Z davros: lol
2020-12-07T04:05:38Z oni-on-ion: many or most of us seem to doing lil embedded lisps
2020-12-07T04:05:39Z no-defun-allowed: davros: You could use the Boehm collector if you are embedding in C. It has an incremental mode, and I think Unity uses that.
2020-12-07T04:05:59Z davros: enemies that rewrite their own code
2020-12-07T04:06:40Z no-defun-allowed: At one point, I wanted a simple language for an AI that I could use "worlds" with, so I could do state space search with imperative code, but still roll back the state after I evaluated it.
2020-12-07T04:06:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-12-07T04:07:00Z moon-child: beach: morning
2020-12-07T04:07:04Z davros: i kind of liked the idea that simple lisp syntax could be parsed in and out of art tools maybe (you kwow all the flowchart type tools designers use for gamelogic)
2020-12-07T04:07:08Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning beach!
2020-12-07T04:07:09Z oni-on-ion: hmm. gm beach
2020-12-07T04:07:42Z davros: the other lispy itch i have is lisp for procedural generation
2020-12-07T04:08:01Z edgar-rft: let's make gmb the official good-morning-beach acronym
2020-12-07T04:08:11Z oni-on-ion: davros, yeah and shaders, geometry definition, and also AI as said. s-exp is great format for many purpose. even OCaml has most tools using it --- also it and haskell's type system are strong enough to use that 100% when read()'ing for a powerful enough language for most things. (ive examples)
2020-12-07T04:08:23Z davros: the most lisp i've ever written is... elisp
2020-12-07T04:08:35Z oni-on-ion: edgar-rft, take my vote
2020-12-07T04:08:37Z banjomet: moon-child, davros: you may find this paper interesting - https://people.cs.umass.edu/~emery/pubs/04-17.pdf
2020-12-07T04:08:47Z no-defun-allowed: Ungar declared generational garbage collection to be superior to reference counting back in 1984, but I guess a Smalltalk system has softer constraints than a video game.
2020-12-07T04:08:59Z banjomet: We showthat, at large heap sizes and under no memory pressure, the runtimeperformance of some garbage collection algorithms is competitivewith the Lea memory allocator and occasionallyoutperformsit byup to 4%. However, our results confirmthat garbage collection re-quires six times the physical memory to achieve this performanceand suffers order-of-magnitude performance penalties when pagingoccurs
2020-12-07T04:09:17Z no-defun-allowed: I like how TeX papers screw up the spaces.
2020-12-07T04:09:27Z oni-on-ion: in haskell engine years ago, all stuff defined in s-exp format directly by haskell read() and show(), no need to parse or check or anything. them type systems be powerful
2020-12-07T04:09:42Z moon-child: emery berger is great.  Does lots of really cool research
2020-12-07T04:09:53Z davros: i can imagine a GC being superior to refcounting, but isn't there something like refcounting being more predictable (hence apple's choice)
2020-12-07T04:10:25Z oni-on-ion: im doing refcount for my toy embedded lisp
2020-12-07T04:10:32Z davros: ultimately for engine type coding i'm happy with the C++/rust idea of stack+single-ownership + refcounting as a last resort , to be minimized
2020-12-07T04:10:57Z no-defun-allowed: But I would ask what performance drop you get for GCing with a smaller heap. Suppose performance/heap has exponential decay, then you might only see a 5% performance decrease with 2x instead of 6x or something like that.
2020-12-07T04:11:22Z oni-on-ion: done a bunch in obj-c and smalltalk , never a problem. managing memory and data structure are very underrated for good programs and delicious code
2020-12-07T04:11:44Z davros: the claim i hear r.e. refcounting and games is "the GC'd bits would be a small amount of memory.. the majority of memory is graphcis, out of reach of the GC"
2020-12-07T04:11:51Z moon-child: davros: the main advantage of reference counting is that you can elide the rc through optimizations in a lot of cases.  Meaning, very close performance to single-owner
2020-12-07T04:11:59Z oni-on-ion: nda i still feel that a tree of heaps/pools is a possible solution. rather than global GC.
2020-12-07T04:12:37Z davros: anyway i see a big dividing line in languages between these two cases
2020-12-07T04:12:46Z no-defun-allowed: Empirically, I have only seen up to 10% GC time with sane heap sizes.
2020-12-07T04:12:47Z davros: for *most* programming.. GC is fine, i accept that
2020-12-07T04:13:02Z moon-child: oni-on-ion: *tree* of pools is what talloc does, and it's very bad for performance.  But pools are great
2020-12-07T04:13:07Z banjomet: totally unrelated, but I remember reading about this library and not being able to stop fantasizing about using it: https://github.com/cosmos72/stmx
2020-12-07T04:13:12Z oni-on-ion: setting limits and availability to predict storage+lifetimes, goes a long way. especially for [soft] real time. allowing everything is where we start looking to magical GC-everything solutions. like windows defragmentor lmao
2020-12-07T04:13:28Z davros: ive done gamedev on older consoles with fixed memory layouts (not even malloc/free -just level stack allocator + custom pools for entities)
2020-12-07T04:13:30Z no-defun-allowed: I wrote something about "for _most_ programming ..." and how "most" is an understatement, but I am not going to repeat that here.
2020-12-07T04:13:31Z banjomet: but sadly tsx in an intel cpu is never available for a laptop, and only in the few high end desktop cpus
2020-12-07T04:13:38Z oni-on-ion: Ultimate Solutions are really only applicable to Ultimate Problems.
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2020-12-07T04:14:33Z mfiano: Game development in CL is difficult for other reasons, not GC.
2020-12-07T04:14:42Z oni-on-ion: like if i just scroll reddit for 10 minutes, no account or anything fancy, just regular website: it starts eating swap like its gone mad. hooray GC !! So Solutiony
2020-12-07T04:15:17Z moon-child: that's not gc, that's a shitty website
2020-12-07T04:15:21Z moon-child: old.reddit.com is nice tho
2020-12-07T04:15:22Z lotuseater: banjomet: yes Software Transactional Memory is a good idea for some things to do safe and reasonable concurrency :)
2020-12-07T04:15:34Z davros: hmm maybe i cuold sneak in a lispy thing for my particle definitions as a starting point
2020-12-07T04:16:27Z oni-on-ion: moon-child, other websites do about the same, but after 30m-1hr. reddit is just doing a lot more so its more noticeable
2020-12-07T04:16:29Z no-defun-allowed: Well, just throw Boehm at all your interpreter allocations, and see if it's a problem. I bet it won't be.
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2020-12-07T04:17:49Z mfiano: Cache coherency is an issue with "real" games in Common Lisp. For small-scale indie games, you don't need to worry about it though.
2020-12-07T04:18:33Z davros: right if you're using linklists all over the place.. lisp can do arrays aswell thought can't it?
2020-12-07T04:19:16Z no-defun-allowed: If I may mess with everyone's minds for a minute, I remember reading about a GC which did very low overhead profiling of which objects pointed to which, and then used that to move those objects closer to each other.
2020-12-07T04:19:24Z mfiano: It's hard to avoid CLOS or otherwise pointer indirection in CL. upgraded-array-element-type is and other things don't help either.
2020-12-07T04:20:03Z mfiano: Not to mention that game development is inherently filled with all sorts of tree data structures, and everyone knows trees are a quick way to ruin cache coherency
2020-12-07T04:20:21Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: interesting!  Sounds like a variant of compacting gc
2020-12-07T04:20:29Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Most copying collectors do that.
2020-12-07T04:20:35Z no-defun-allowed: See ftp://ftp.cs.wisc.edu/wwt/ismm98_cache_gc.pdf
2020-12-07T04:20:55Z beach: Oh, based on run-time?
2020-12-07T04:21:01Z beach: I hadn't seen that.
2020-12-07T04:21:01Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Do they do some profiling at runtime?
2020-12-07T04:21:07Z beach: No, sorry.
2020-12-07T04:21:09Z banjomet: one reason I don't like rust is that it doesn't have objects. The case this guy made for how difficult it is to model a gui kind of stuck with me: https://hackernoon.com/why-im-dropping-rust-fd1c32986c88
2020-12-07T04:21:22Z beach: I shouldn't intervene before I had my morning coffee.
2020-12-07T04:21:58Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, this one does runtime profiling. I think depth-first copying has been done at least on Genera and some proprietary implementation I forgot the name of (Franz?)
2020-12-07T04:22:01Z davros: banjomet, its hard to map *existing* gui APIs to rust. but you can design a GUI within its trait-object idea
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2020-12-07T04:22:40Z banjomet: davros: that is a fair point. But I also remember reading about the difficulties the conrod guy had, but my google-fu is weak tonight
2020-12-07T04:22:43Z fe[nl]ix: there are lots of ideas in GC literature that haven't been implemented because of industry dynamics
2020-12-07T04:22:53Z moon-child: banjomet: I didn't have any trouble making a gui in c.  As long as you can do basic runtime polymorphism (single dynamic dispatch), you should be fine
2020-12-07T04:23:03Z davros: some things gui api's tend to do with inheritance you can do by composing traits using generics , i've found. it's definitely "different", but doable
2020-12-07T04:23:12Z fe[nl]ix: like game companies relying on existing game engines and never making their own stack from scratch
2020-12-07T04:23:24Z no-defun-allowed: The paper compares the design to the Wilson-Lam-Moher algorithm, which tries to keep objects on the same pages.
2020-12-07T04:23:35Z beach: I agree with fe[nl]ix.  I think the debate is over.  GC, if done right, is always more efficient than manual memory management and reference counters.
2020-12-07T04:23:37Z fe[nl]ix: few can afford to write their own language to implement the game in
2020-12-07T04:24:05Z lotuseater: fe[nl]ix: i thought some do like ID or CD Project Red
2020-12-07T04:24:17Z banjomet: the main reason games disappoint me after the 360 era is that they went for 'high-resolution' everything. I would much rather prefer collision-based dynamic animations and destructible environments/vehicles.
2020-12-07T04:24:20Z moon-child: fe[nl]ix: naughty dog did, though; Goal Oriented Action Lisp was neat
2020-12-07T04:24:22Z fe[nl]ix: I said "few"
2020-12-07T04:24:36Z fe[nl]ix: not "nobody"
2020-12-07T04:24:39Z davros: heh yeah its even hard to get Rust into commercial gamedev because of reliance on established C++ engines.
2020-12-07T04:24:49Z no-defun-allowed: The program runs 6% slower because of profiling overhead, but the improved cache usage improves performance by around 15-35%.
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2020-12-07T04:25:14Z davros: Game Oriented Assembly Lisp
2020-12-07T04:25:26Z davros: or was it a bacronym as you say?
2020-12-07T04:25:27Z banjomet: halo used a lisp like language for scripting: https://opencarnage.net/index.php?/topic/4156-scripting-guide/
2020-12-07T04:25:30Z oni-on-ion: i am morally against auto GC for soft real time
2020-12-07T04:25:47Z beach: no-defun-allowed: So I have read about "data-oriented programming", and what you are describing seems to be the automatic version of that idea.
2020-12-07T04:26:00Z beach: oni-on-ion: Why?
2020-12-07T04:26:00Z fe[nl]ix: beach: there's a solid consensus among GC implementors that if you can statically determine allocation patterns, then manual management outperforms GCs
2020-12-07T04:26:19Z no-defun-allowed: I agree with beach and fe[nl]ix, but I will also (possibly redundantly) add that most language implementations with garbage collection usually are pretty acceptable by default.
2020-12-07T04:26:23Z moon-child: davros: right you are; I was mixing up with Goal Oriented Action Planning
2020-12-07T04:26:36Z lotuseater: moon-child: yes but be interesting to see the source
2020-12-07T04:26:46Z oni-on-ion: no one remembers ABUSE! also did its Lisp thing for all game stuff.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_(video_game)
2020-12-07T04:26:50Z beach: fe[nl]ix: I can believe that.  But that's a big "if".
2020-12-07T04:26:58Z banjomet: do you guys know any languages that support incremental compilation?
2020-12-07T04:27:02Z fe[nl]ix: but that's quite hard, which is why as the complexity of a C++ program increases, it asymptotically needs a GC
2020-12-07T04:27:07Z davros: oh i do remember ABUSE now you mention it
2020-12-07T04:27:09Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I've heard of that too, but it was because someone tried to tell me that I wasn't making good use of cache in cl-decentralise2, so I said, "Well, I never wanted to do different things with different objects anyway."
2020-12-07T04:27:16Z mfiano: Yes, and Naughty Dog no longer even uses Lisp, except Scheme for scripting. It was part of their Sony contract to aid sharing resources with their other studios
2020-12-07T04:27:41Z oni-on-ion: beach, i was mentioning about how global-auto-GC being basically unsolved, cannot truly be done, because the number of possible configurations and strategies are endless
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2020-12-07T04:27:53Z fe[nl]ix: mfiano: cutting costs is another facet of the "industry problem"
2020-12-07T04:27:55Z no-defun-allowed: banjomet: Common Lisp, Smalltalk, Self, Erlang at least do incremental compilation (and replacement of classes and code) well.
2020-12-07T04:28:01Z oni-on-ion: beach, in that there is no magical "just use Flex Tape on it all!"
2020-12-07T04:28:30Z davros: do people in this room mostly use CL or Scheme or what
2020-12-07T04:28:34Z lotuseater: oni-on-ion: thx i add ABUSE to my list of points if someone annoys me the next time with the question how parentheses can be useful for anything
2020-12-07T04:28:42Z oni-on-ion: lotuseater, nice =)
2020-12-07T04:28:48Z no-defun-allowed: Liveness is a global property (if I want to write modular code, I shouldn't assume how the client will use my objects) and undecidable anyway.
2020-12-07T04:28:59Z banjomet: no-defun-allowed: really? I did not know that.
2020-12-07T04:29:04Z beach: davros: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2020-12-07T04:29:11Z no-defun-allowed: davros: Due to historical stuff, #lisp is about Common Lisp, so most people here use that.
2020-12-07T04:29:49Z oni-on-ion: also if it indirectly counts: N64 games especially Mario 64, used SGI machines of course. but the software 'Mirai' from Nendo was done in Common Lisp. i think someone told me that was from ancient lisp graphics heritage.
2020-12-07T04:30:02Z lotuseater: oni-on-ion: But I have the feeling most people don't listen anyway. So be it.
2020-12-07T04:30:08Z davros: does anyone here use CL as their main go-to language (i mean language they go to mostly, not language with go-to statements lol)
2020-12-07T04:30:37Z beach: davros: I would think most of us.
2020-12-07T04:30:55Z davros: and does anyone try to recreate or design real LISP machines on FPGA :)
2020-12-07T04:31:05Z moon-child: davros: I don't think I have a go-to language, but cl is definitely up there
2020-12-07T04:31:07Z lotuseater: I recognized Mirai as a Blender like tool
2020-12-07T04:31:17Z no-defun-allowed: banjomet: There is a larger set of languages that will allow you to replace code and class definitions at least, including Python and Java, but they don't update instances like the list I provided. And there is another set that wants to redefine "incremental compilation" to be compiling modules with per-file granularity...
2020-12-07T04:31:37Z beach: davros: There is no real point.  You will lose an order of magnitude in performance compared to stock hardware, and Common Lisp runs fine on such hardware today.
2020-12-07T04:32:30Z fe[nl]ix: beach: are you on the pro@common-lisp.net mailing list ?
2020-12-07T04:32:35Z davros: what compiler backends to lisps have these days
2020-12-07T04:32:36Z no-defun-allowed: davros: The causes of the "death" of Lisp machines are still present...as beach said. But I will consider designing a processor which would arguably be "specialised" to my programs and uses, most of which involve Lisp.
2020-12-07T04:32:45Z lotuseater: davros: yes i found something for that and also had the idea it will be a good thing. would do it myself but I've not enough knowledge about the hole thing
2020-12-07T04:32:45Z beach: fe[nl]ix: I am, but I don't usually read it.
2020-12-07T04:32:49Z oni-on-ion: lotuseater, not when they are busy trying to get other people to listen to them or making a point for themselves.   "Whenever i use my own words, no one else understands me" =)
2020-12-07T04:33:09Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Anything I should be aware of?
2020-12-07T04:33:28Z oni-on-ion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirai_(software)
2020-12-07T04:33:37Z moon-child: davros: sbcl and ccl have their own; ecl compiles to c; and there was one that used llvm
2020-12-07T04:33:40Z fe[nl]ix: beach: we had a similar conversation (about GCs) a few days ago
2020-12-07T04:33:51Z lotuseater: oni-on-ion: but honest to say not all of them are hipsters. but trapped in their worlds
2020-12-07T04:33:52Z beach: I'll check it out then.  Thanks.
2020-12-07T04:33:58Z oni-on-ion: (more info here: https://web.archive.org/web/20110716211447/http://lemonodor.com/archives/000256.html )
2020-12-07T04:34:11Z no-defun-allowed: I may have heard of that, as jackdaniel told beach about such a discussion a few days ago.
2020-12-07T04:34:19Z oni-on-ion: lotuseater, as most people are. this is an unfortunate reality
2020-12-07T04:34:24Z fe[nl]ix: beach: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/pro/2020-December/001836.html
2020-12-07T04:35:14Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Nice!  Thanks!
2020-12-07T04:35:53Z fe[nl]ix: beach: I'd love to implement a modern GC for SBCL but I can't find funding
2020-12-07T04:35:54Z no-defun-allowed: If there are store barriers already, would it hurt that much to use generational scavenging?
2020-12-07T04:36:23Z fe[nl]ix: we're talking about at least one year of work if not more
2020-12-07T04:36:31Z beach: fe[nl]ix: I have a design for SICL, but it has not been tested yet.
2020-12-07T04:37:10Z beach: fe[nl]ix: But it is probably not applicable to SBCL because it relies on the layout of SICL objects.
2020-12-07T04:37:14Z no-defun-allowed: I'm bored with my incremental conservative collector, and I want to revise it to use two generations. It would basically be the Liebermann-Hewitt incremental generational copying collector, but with replication copying, and with my own modifications to allow for pinning.
2020-12-07T04:38:34Z fe[nl]ix: no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure what you mean by "hurt". the newer GCs are not generational, although some work modes can approximate a generational GC
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2020-12-07T04:38:48Z fe[nl]ix: no-defun-allowed: what do you work on ?
2020-12-07T04:38:53Z oni-on-ion: nda what are you actually making
2020-12-07T04:39:20Z beach: Wow, an IRC client without completion!
2020-12-07T04:39:23Z no-defun-allowed: fe[nl]ix: Sorry, I meant if it would decrease throughput to implement the requisite write barrier for tenured->nursery pointers, when there already is a write barrier apparently.
2020-12-07T04:39:28Z fe[nl]ix: beach: plugging in the layout should be relatively easy
2020-12-07T04:39:35Z no-defun-allowed: Do I get to make a joke about non-disclosure agreements now?
2020-12-07T04:39:50Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Yes, but SBCL maintainers would not accept the SICL layout.
2020-12-07T04:39:59Z pfdietz: I remember when stock hardware caught up with Lisp Machines.   The LMs evaporated pretty quickly.   I think Lucid had something to do with closing the gap.
2020-12-07T04:40:06Z davros: is it "eval" or something where a lisp program can invoke a jit to run code it generates itself
2020-12-07T04:40:20Z mfiano: I read that pro thread the other day, and have used Julia quite a bit. It tries too much to be like CL in my opinion, but completely struck out on packages.
2020-12-07T04:40:27Z no-defun-allowed: EVAL may or may not compile. COMPILE will compile.
2020-12-07T04:40:29Z pfdietz: There was a while after that when commercial lisps on stock hardware were a thing, but then they fell as well.
2020-12-07T04:40:39Z no-defun-allowed: clhs compile
2020-12-07T04:40:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm
2020-12-07T04:40:41Z beach: davros: The Common Lisp standard requires the compiler to be part of any implementation.
2020-12-07T04:40:44Z fe[nl]ix: no-defun-allowed: yes. the implementors make it pretty clear that the trade-off of median pauses of <1ms is lower throughput
2020-12-07T04:40:50Z no-defun-allowed: (compile nil '(lambda (x) (1+ x)))
2020-12-07T04:41:08Z mfiano: packages in julia do not have identity. You can reload a file and have a completely distinct version of the package defined in your "image", making repl testing really confusing.
2020-12-07T04:41:10Z fe[nl]ix: these new GCs have a 15-20% throughput overhead
2020-12-07T04:41:43Z no-defun-allowed: fe[nl]ix: However, a generational collector should not scan as much, so could that reduce the overhead?
2020-12-07T04:42:08Z fe[nl]ix: the generational hypothesis does not hold very well
2020-12-07T04:42:21Z oni-on-ion: davros, may find interesting: https://ane.github.io/2020/10/05/between-two-lisps.html
2020-12-07T04:42:22Z no-defun-allowed: That's news to me.
2020-12-07T04:43:20Z oni-on-ion: everything eventually goes toward General Purpose. GPU soon will mean just that eh =)
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2020-12-07T04:43:34Z fe[nl]ix: the nemesis of the generational hypothesis is the LRU cache
2020-12-07T04:43:36Z oni-on-ion: specialization however is left in the dust
2020-12-07T04:44:02Z fe[nl]ix: and LRU caches are very typical on backend servers
2020-12-07T04:44:06Z no-defun-allowed: A good point.
2020-12-07T04:44:17Z oni-on-ion: mfiano, afaik something to do with types. so a new function is created for add(Int32, Int32) when used that way
2020-12-07T04:44:31Z davros: heh yeah thats the other question , are people running lisp code on GPUs (generating compute kernels, cuda equivalent)
2020-12-07T04:44:38Z mfiano: Why two packages of the same name in Julia are two distinct symbol tables is beyond me, and makes having a REPL completely useless to me.
2020-12-07T04:44:56Z no-defun-allowed: But you don't mutate the values stored in cache, so they shouldn't pose a problem for a generational collector? Maybe if you swap out values quickly, it becomes a problem as you don't perform major collections as often.
2020-12-07T04:45:09Z mfiano: You can't live recompile a function without creating a duplicate package...
2020-12-07T04:45:19Z oni-on-ion: mfiano, what version ? afaik reloading packages were fine for me. the REPL was impressive, about on level with OCaml's utop
2020-12-07T04:45:36Z no-defun-allowed: davros: There are a few packages for generating GPU code, but there's no way you'll be doing list processing on a GPU.
2020-12-07T04:45:53Z mfiano: Well I have been using it for about 5 years, and things have not gotten better since about 3 months ago was the last I used it.
2020-12-07T04:46:46Z fe[nl]ix: no-defun-allowed: old discarded objects pose a problem because they only get scavenged in a full GC
2020-12-07T04:46:53Z mfiano: CL is my goto in practically all my coding. I do use Julia for some of its math libraries to compare against my CL code though.
2020-12-07T04:46:58Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2020-12-07T04:46:59Z fe[nl]ix: which means your memory usage balloons
2020-12-07T04:47:26Z fe[nl]ix: increasing pauses because a full GC scans the entire heap, etc...
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2020-12-07T04:48:32Z oni-on-ion: mfiano, hmm. there must be a better way to do that, especially REPL for julia because there is still no clean/smart way to build binaries
2020-12-07T04:51:20Z no-defun-allowed: fe[nl]ix: But surely you aren't replacing cache values that frequently. Or maybe you are, I dunno.
2020-12-07T04:52:28Z mfiano: I'm not complaining, really. CL is all I will ever need. It's just ausing how languages have been borrowing and crippling CL features for years.
2020-12-07T04:53:18Z oni-on-ion: why can't i (defstruct A (defstruct A_x ...) (defstruct A_y ...)) ?
2020-12-07T04:53:49Z davros: anyone use CLOS multiple dispatch here?
2020-12-07T04:53:51Z fe[nl]ix: no-defun-allowed: it's not uncommon for backend software to have a fixed cache in the order of X million objects which should account to e.g. 70G of RAM
2020-12-07T04:54:05Z oni-on-ion: ^
2020-12-07T04:54:31Z no-defun-allowed: Yes and yes. I use multiple dispatch fairly frequently, and I do have a caching-mixin that lets me pick some cache size.
2020-12-07T04:54:36Z oni-on-ion: predictable software vs. general purpose anything-can-happen-need-magic-garbage
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2020-12-07T04:54:49Z fe[nl]ix: but if that causes an additional 20-30G of unreachable but not collected objects to stick around
2020-12-07T04:55:03Z fe[nl]ix: your server starts runnning out of RAM quickly
2020-12-07T04:55:05Z oni-on-ion: once a binary is made, there are only so many patterns it can run through, give or take external data, and this is exhaustable. don't need "anything can happen" solutions for that.
2020-12-07T04:55:54Z fe[nl]ix: and you can't even use memory pressure signals to evict objects from the cache because those unreachable old objects would still not be collected in time to avoid the OOM killer
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2020-12-07T04:56:16Z no-defun-allowed: Also, with my scheme, you still have incremental major collections. Maybe scanning the stack is a bit slower if you have to also copy tenured roots, but it hopefully isn't worse than non-generational collection.
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2020-12-07T04:57:16Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: Now write an analyser that will decide what's live where for an arbitrary program. There are many programs for which you'll never know.
2020-12-07T05:00:07Z oni-on-ion: 'arbitrary' is the thing, not predictable
2020-12-07T05:00:32Z oni-on-ion: program should not be arbitrary. same reason IRL the laws and social cues and culture things keep changing
2020-12-07T05:00:35Z no-defun-allowed: Programs are very arbitrary.
2020-12-07T05:00:49Z oni-on-ion: general programs
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2020-12-07T05:01:15Z no-defun-allowed: What's a general program?
2020-12-07T05:01:27Z pfdietz: davros:  I use multiple dispatch.  I even use method combination.
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2020-12-07T05:01:48Z oni-on-ion: no-defun-allowed, given all the power to do anything in whatever way, however often, etc
2020-12-07T05:02:08Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, the liveness of a general program is undecidable.
2020-12-07T05:02:14Z oni-on-ion: in contrast to say a DSL (example, css)
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2020-12-07T05:02:52Z oni-on-ion: yea. my againstness of magic-GC is precisely because the programs i make are not general at all. the tools i use to make them are however, sure
2020-12-07T05:03:33Z oni-on-ion: CL is easily one of the best for this, but once something is set in stone, it should be able to leave the factory
2020-12-07T05:04:09Z oni-on-ion: and where prediction comes in (given external data) due to a binary or stone'd program can only run so many combinations of patterns
2020-12-07T05:04:30Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe I just don't write "general programs".
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2020-12-07T05:05:02Z oni-on-ion: im thinking no one does, except of course compilers and operating system and web browser
2020-12-07T05:05:10Z oni-on-ion: "sandbox" programs
2020-12-07T05:05:30Z oni-on-ion: to actually write a program/app/game/website is very particular and not general
2020-12-07T05:05:43Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, okay. "General" in generality, not a synonym "normal".
2020-12-07T05:06:00Z no-defun-allowed: Then my programs are very general; a regular expression compiler, a distributed object system, ...
2020-12-07T05:06:03Z oni-on-ion: yeah =) in sense of General Purpose [programming language, processor, etc]
2020-12-07T05:06:20Z oni-on-ion: yep =) i've a feeling thats called Systems programming ?
2020-12-07T05:06:24Z no-defun-allowed: And I don't know anyone that hasn't written a few general programs.
2020-12-07T05:06:42Z no-defun-allowed: No, systems programming is a scam made to sell more oxidisation processes.
2020-12-07T05:06:43Z oni-on-ion: of course - done some 3d modeler and map editors and etc. Tools
2020-12-07T05:06:58Z oni-on-ion: ah system is a general enough word
2020-12-07T05:07:57Z oni-on-ion: about Genera , comes from:: Genus (n) "kind or class of things" (biological sense dates from c. 1600), from Latin genus (genitive generis) "race, stock, kind; family, birth, descent, origin," from suffixed form of PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget,"
2020-12-07T05:08:15Z oni-on-ion: (genera is plural of genus)
2020-12-07T05:09:10Z oni-on-ion: and General -- "of wide application, generic, affecting or involving all" (as opposed to special or specific), from Old French general (12c.) and directly from Latin generalis "relating to all, of a whole class, generic"
2020-12-07T05:10:40Z mfiano: Heh, systems programming
2020-12-07T05:11:09Z oni-on-ion: =) https://www.etymonline.com/word/system
2020-12-07T05:11:14Z mfiano: A systems programming language means different things to different people. Some people consider it a language that you can write an OS in. It won't be long before CSS fits that, since it is already Turing-complete. Others think of it as working with severely constrained resources. Others think of it as just manual memory management. It's really a term that nobody should use. Just state exactly what
2020-12-07T05:11:15Z mfiano: you are talking about.
2020-12-07T05:11:40Z oni-on-ion: as a term its very ahem general
2020-12-07T05:12:03Z oni-on-ion: but capitalized to use the one particular to context
2020-12-07T05:13:37Z oni-on-ion: oh.... Gender.   i have some thoughts about gendered software, but wont discuss it here i've spammed quite enough =)
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2020-12-07T05:17:25Z beach: davros: Yes, of course.  Multiple dispatch is used all the time.
2020-12-07T05:17:37Z beach: davros: You have some very strange questions, in my opinion.
2020-12-07T05:17:51Z mfiano: Yes, I find it hard to believe anyone here doesn't use that daily.
2020-12-07T05:20:46Z beach: davros: What was the reason for that particular question of yours?
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2020-12-07T05:25:17Z davros: just curious how many people actively use that stuff
2020-12-07T05:25:46Z beach: davros: And what would the answers suggest to you?
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2020-12-07T05:28:09Z oni-on-ion: best is to search in github, search by prog lang (CL), then sort by popularity and whatnot. browse the source code of the programs. (explaining code in english is kind of backwards from the reason we have made proglangs in the first place.)
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2020-12-07T07:55:30Z hahawang: Hi, I'm a newbie in lisp and I've found the macro quite hard to learn, what's the most effectively to learn it?
2020-12-07T07:57:37Z treflip: hahawang: you can watch this tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygKXeLKhiTI or read a book called "Let Over Lambda"
2020-12-07T07:58:06Z mange: Is there anything in particular you're having trouble understanding?
2020-12-07T07:59:29Z beach: hahawang: There is not much to understand.  A macro is just a function that takes code and returns some different code.
2020-12-07T08:00:21Z hahawang: Thank you, I've found the most hard part is do some evaluation in macro body and it always generate some messy code and bug prone...
2020-12-07T08:00:45Z beach: hahawang: It is typical for beginners to use macros when they shouldn't.
2020-12-07T08:00:47Z hahawang: espically mixed with `(,), quasiquote
2020-12-07T08:01:22Z beach: hahawang: Macros should not be used when functions will work.
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2020-12-07T08:01:59Z hahawang:  Yes, I have found I can't tell the real difference between macro and function
2020-12-07T08:02:17Z hahawang: When to use function and when to use macro
2020-12-07T08:02:46Z beach: hahawang: It's fairly simple.  A function always evaluates its arguments before being applied to the values of those arguments.  If that is acceptable semantics, then you should use a function.
2020-12-07T08:02:51Z no-defun-allowed: You couldn't implement something like WITH-OPEN-FILE without using a macro.
2020-12-07T08:03:06Z phoe: hahawang: always use functions, except for when a function won't do very well.
2020-12-07T08:03:15Z phoe: which is e.g. when you want to introduce some new syntax.
2020-12-07T08:04:13Z hahawang: I found when I want to write some macro, I can't tell which part will be evaluate at the macro expansion time and which part will be evaluated after expansion
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2020-12-07T08:05:05Z Cymew: Do some stupid examples and expand them to test it out, is probably a good idea.
2020-12-07T08:05:47Z hahawang: It's hard to imagine what will be evaluated after macro expansion, when I try to expand it, it always generate some messy and nested list which is hard to debug and read
2020-12-07T08:06:04Z hahawang: Oh, forget to say thank you!
2020-12-07T08:06:31Z no-defun-allowed: You can use MACROEXPAND (or MACROEXPAND-1) so you don't have to imagine the expansion.
2020-12-07T08:06:39Z beach: hahawang: The entire expression resulting from the macro expansion is evaluated using the normal evaluation rule.
2020-12-07T08:07:31Z no-defun-allowed: e.g (macroexpand '(incf x)) => (SETQ X (+ 1 X)) ; or something like that
2020-12-07T08:08:29Z hahawang: @beach Thank you! Inspiring idea!
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2020-12-07T08:08:44Z beach: Pleasure.
2020-12-07T08:09:02Z phoe: hahawang: re "It's hard to imagine" it's actually easier when you do slime-macrostep
2020-12-07T08:09:15Z phoe: macrostep mode is amazing because it expands macros inline
2020-12-07T08:09:22Z hahawang: @no-defun-allowed Thank you too.
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2020-12-07T08:09:51Z hahawang: @phoe Thank you, I will have a try.
2020-12-07T08:12:08Z hahawang: Thank you all! I will watch the recommanded video, read that book and practise more!
2020-12-07T08:12:52Z phoe: hahawang: good luck with that
2020-12-07T08:13:09Z phoe: #clschool is also a good channel to ask questions if #lisp is busy for whatever reason
2020-12-07T08:13:21Z phoe: and #lispcafe is for more off-topic discussions
2020-12-07T08:13:43Z phoe: feel free to ask if you're curious about stuff.
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2020-12-07T08:15:08Z beach: phoe: Heh!  "good luck with that" sounds like "there is no way you are ever going to understand it that way".
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2020-12-07T08:17:22Z phoe: oh
2020-12-07T08:17:24Z phoe: :(
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2020-12-07T08:17:29Z phoe: I did not mean it that way
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2020-12-07T08:17:38Z beach: I know.
2020-12-07T08:17:40Z phoe blames English, as always
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2020-12-07T08:17:46Z phoe: hahawang: good luck! sorry fo the mixup
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2020-12-07T08:19:09Z beach: "`Good luck with that' is a set phrase that people say when you're going to try something that they think will be hard or impossible."
2020-12-07T08:19:29Z phoe: yes, I see it now
2020-12-07T08:19:48Z beach: English is hard.
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2020-12-07T08:28:15Z hahawang: @phoe It doesn't matter. I am not a native speaker and also try my best to learn English now.
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2020-12-07T08:32:51Z beach: hahawang: The @ convention is not used on IRC.  Just so you know.
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2020-12-07T08:33:16Z beach: hahawang: Just type the nick followed by `:'.  Your IRC client should complete for you.
2020-12-07T08:33:44Z hahawang: beach: Let my try.
2020-12-07T08:33:51Z hahawang: Oh, that not works.
2020-12-07T08:33:52Z beach: Worked! :)
2020-12-07T08:34:03Z beach: Oh?
2020-12-07T08:34:05Z hahawang: I am using IRC in emacs.
2020-12-07T08:34:10Z beach: Me too.
2020-12-07T08:34:37Z phoe: and I'm not
2020-12-07T08:34:45Z hahawang: I can't see the highlight of your nickname in the message I have typed.
2020-12-07T08:35:10Z phoe: hahawang: well
2020-12-07T08:35:11Z beach: hahawang: You see your own nickname highlighted.
2020-12-07T08:35:13Z phoe: that's client-dependent
2020-12-07T08:35:24Z phoe: I see mine highlighted in irssi
2020-12-07T08:35:59Z no-defun-allowed: I see mine highlighted over Matrix on the web client, too.
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2020-12-07T08:46:26Z madnificent: phoe lost one street credit
2020-12-07T08:48:50Z phoe: madnificent: :(
2020-12-07T08:49:21Z phoe: this is so I have an IRC session that is not lost on machine reboots and is instead sitting on a tiny VPS
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2020-12-07T08:54:21Z madnificent: phoe: I was joking :)  I found out it's trivial to set up znc and am now using znc-erc for that purpose.  The default configuration doesn't replay enough to be super nice, but I'm sure a few hours of searching for configuration would resolve that too.  Nothing wrong with irssi though :D
2020-12-07T08:54:48Z flip214: phoe: the only remaining question is.... screen or tmux? ;)
2020-12-07T08:54:48Z phoe: madnificent: :D
2020-12-07T08:55:00Z phoe: flip214: I'll answer on #lispcafe
2020-12-07T08:55:08Z madnificent: took me years far too long to figure out there's something like znc.  if i'd have known, i likely wouldn't have left this channel.
2020-12-07T08:55:38Z flip214: phoe: my irssi channel bar is already too long, don't think I want another entry there ;)
2020-12-07T08:56:13Z phoe: flip214: okay then, tmux
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2020-12-07T09:15:45Z lotuseater: hahawang: sorry but don't start with Let over Lambda. it's too much for a beginner
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2020-12-07T09:17:33Z phoe: ^
2020-12-07T09:17:51Z phoe: if anything, start with On Lisp to start understanding Lisp macros; Let Over Lambda is an advanced macrology title
2020-12-07T09:18:19Z lotuseater: try to implement something like += from other langs first as a function and think about why that can't work. then macros are needed
2020-12-07T09:18:29Z phoe: and I'd advise you to start with Practical Common Lisp or Graham's ANSI CL (or Touretzky's Gentle if you haven't programmed before at all) to understand Lisp basics first
2020-12-07T09:19:21Z lotuseater: phoe: do you agree if i say macros can be viewed as functions which take lists and produce new lists?
2020-12-07T09:19:32Z phoe: lotuseater: can't agree with that
2020-12-07T09:19:40Z phoe: macros can take any Lisp data and produce any Lisp data - not just list
2020-12-07T09:19:42Z phoe: lists*
2020-12-07T09:19:44Z beach: They take code and produce new code.
2020-12-07T09:19:48Z hahawang: I have some experience with Lisp, I have implement a simple bittorrent client(yet not full-fledged) in Emacs Lisp and have written my own Lisp interpreter.
2020-12-07T09:20:17Z phoe: (defmacro foo () "foo") - a valid macro, no lists taken, no lists produced
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2020-12-07T09:20:24Z hahawang: But Lisp macro seems so hard for me :(
2020-12-07T09:20:24Z beach: Even better, a macro function takes a form and produces a new form.
2020-12-07T09:20:39Z phoe: hahawang: oh, good - then PCL should be a good suit
2020-12-07T09:20:58Z srandon111: guys i am starting with common lisp on linux, should i install sbcl and quicklisp from my package manager or it is more suggested to install them externally from the package manager?
2020-12-07T09:21:00Z hahawang: Anyone interested with that bittorrent client?
2020-12-07T09:21:10Z lotuseater: na ok maybe it isn't clear what i meant
2020-12-07T09:21:11Z srandon111: is there something similar to pyenv for clisp ?
2020-12-07T09:21:24Z phoe: hahawang: maybe #emacs - #lisp is about Common Lisp
2020-12-07T09:21:25Z beach: srandon111: CLISP?>
2020-12-07T09:21:35Z beach: srandon111: CLISP is not that well maintained these days.
2020-12-07T09:21:48Z phoe: beach: he likely uses "clisp" as the invalid acronym for Common Lisp
2020-12-07T09:21:50Z hahawang: There is so much thing I want to implement but I have no time since there are so much details.
2020-12-07T09:22:08Z beach: srandon111: CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp.
2020-12-07T09:22:09Z phoe: srandon111: I install SBCL from debian's apt repositories and then install quicklisp from outside.
2020-12-07T09:22:13Z no-defun-allowed: Well, there aren't multiple incompatible versions of Common Lisp to switch between.
2020-12-07T09:22:31Z phoe: I don't install *ANY* CL software other than SBCL from OS repositories because they clash with Quicklisp-provided stuff in various really awful ways.
2020-12-07T09:22:56Z phoe: no ASDF, no slime, no alexandria, no nothing; I grab those from Quicklisp (and I upgrade ASDF manually).
2020-12-07T09:23:01Z beach: srandon111: If you assume people know what pyenv is without describing it, you will likely get fewer answers than if you told us what pyenv does.
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2020-12-07T09:23:05Z srandon111: beach, sorry i meant common lisp
2020-12-07T09:23:11Z hahawang: phoe: sorry, I don't know that.
2020-12-07T09:23:21Z phoe: hahawang: now you do :D
2020-12-07T09:23:26Z phoe: no worries
2020-12-07T09:23:40Z hahawang: phoe: Thank you.
2020-12-07T09:23:43Z srandon111: phoe, ok thanks... so your suggestion is to install sbcl from official OS repos and quicklisp externally ?
2020-12-07T09:23:52Z phoe: srandon111: yes
2020-12-07T09:24:05Z phoe: install SBCL from the official OS repos and then download and install quicklisp separately
2020-12-07T09:24:08Z phoe: and use that to setup everything else.
2020-12-07T09:24:24Z srandon111: ok thanks phoe
2020-12-07T09:25:22Z hahawang: I want to learn how macro works and have implemented a lisp interpreter in C++ followed Peter Novig's toturial, but In my opinion, although understanding how it works helps to learn how to use it, but using it well is quite anthor story.
2020-12-07T09:25:46Z beach: Wow.
2020-12-07T09:26:04Z hahawang: Something like you know what chess rules are and how chess works, but you can't it well.
2020-12-07T09:26:12Z phoe: hahawang: macros have rules of their own, too
2020-12-07T09:26:16Z hahawang: can't play it well.
2020-12-07T09:26:33Z phoe: and there's tactics and strategies for macro usage, just like with chess. :D
2020-12-07T09:27:01Z mfiano: Such as only use them for the two things they are used for. Use functions whenever you can
2020-12-07T09:27:10Z beach: hahawang: Maybe you should look at the first few presentations I made for the online Lisp meeting, entitled "Creating a Common Lisp implementation".
2020-12-07T09:28:09Z hahawang: Maybe it's what lisp intrigues me, building complex and beautiful program by a few of clean rules, quite elegant.
2020-12-07T09:28:10Z srandon111: phoe, ok so basically this ?https://lisp-lang.org/learn/getting-started/
2020-12-07T09:28:52Z hahawang: phoe: Yes, I think I'm missing some tactics and strategies.
2020-12-07T09:28:53Z phoe: srandon111: yes
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2020-12-07T09:29:01Z beach: hahawang: Did you write that interpreter mainly to learn how Common Lisp works?
2020-12-07T09:30:25Z hahawang: No, It's not common lisp interpreter. Common lisp is a big one, I just implement a lisp dialect for my own reasearch, a DSL for my reasearch, adding some syntax borrowed from Perl.
2020-12-07T09:30:29Z phoe: beach: I would assume more like learning how Lisp interpreters/environments/evaluators work in general; this assumptions may not be true because it follows my story back when I implemented Graham's Roots of Lisp
2020-12-07T09:30:36Z phoe: s/assumptions/assumption/
2020-12-07T09:30:54Z beach: I see.
2020-12-07T09:31:08Z beach: hahawang: So you are planning to use it for your own work?
2020-12-07T09:31:43Z beach: hahawang: If so, why did you not choose to use an existing implementation.  An interpreter written in C++ is likely to be very slow.
2020-12-07T09:32:13Z hahawang: beach. I am research on service architecture on Embedded system, I add some syntax surgar in Lisp to let remote service like a normal lisp function.
2020-12-07T09:33:10Z hahawang: beach: Yes, it's quite slow, I want write a lisp compiler to directly compiling to ARM assembly at spare time.
2020-12-07T09:33:26Z beach: Very ambitious.
2020-12-07T09:33:27Z srandon111: phoe, ok stupid question... i was following this: https://lisp-lang.org/learn/first-steps
2020-12-07T09:33:37Z srandon111: but he never says how to launch a CL-USER repl ...
2020-12-07T09:33:43Z hahawang: Sorry, "I want to", bad grammar, sorry.
2020-12-07T09:33:44Z phoe: srandon111: launch slime
2020-12-07T09:33:48Z srandon111: how can i launch it? do i necessarily need slime ??
2020-12-07T09:33:57Z phoe: you can just run SBCL instead
2020-12-07T09:34:05Z phoe: and you'll get a REPL, just a different one
2020-12-07T09:34:16Z srandon111: phoe, ok slime is only within emacs right ?
2020-12-07T09:34:29Z srandon111: so SBCL provides its own REPL accessible by just doing "sbcl" ?
2020-12-07T09:34:33Z phoe: yes
2020-12-07T09:34:49Z phoe: but it is less featureful, because you don't have an external debugger, inspector, cross-references, completions, or ability to easily send in forms or files for compilation
2020-12-07T09:35:08Z phoe: slime is only for emacs, but there are also plugins for other editors
2020-12-07T09:35:13Z beach: srandon111: If you try to use Common Lisp with the bare SBCL REPL, you will hate the experience.
2020-12-07T09:35:21Z phoe: see https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/k82yd4/is_there_a_free_nonemacs_editor/
2020-12-07T09:35:22Z srandon111: phoe, is there a more fancy repl outside emacs ? something maybe with syntax highlighting and other fancy stuff ?
2020-12-07T09:35:25Z phoe: that's a very recent discussion.
2020-12-07T09:35:31Z phoe: srandon111: yes, see the linked thread
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2020-12-07T09:35:37Z srandon111: thanks phoe very helpful
2020-12-07T09:36:02Z beach: srandon111: I strongly recommend you use Emacs and SLIME.
2020-12-07T09:36:13Z lotuseater: oh yes, not seeing arguments or keywords etc acceptable by functions or else in SBCL REPL was painful
2020-12-07T09:36:17Z hahawang: beach: I choose to write my own mainly for educational purpose. I am curious about how lisp macro works, eval/expand/apply works, garbage collection works, reference counting works, mark and sweep works, so I decide to write my own.
2020-12-07T09:36:42Z beach: hahawang: I understand.
2020-12-07T09:37:03Z hahawang: In addition to that, I want to extend some new syntax to lisp, like #(1 2 3 4) to denote some special list.
2020-12-07T09:37:19Z beach: hahawang: That's already Common Lisp syntax for vectors.
2020-12-07T09:37:24Z lotuseater: ehm that is for vectors
2020-12-07T09:37:41Z beach: hahawang: But I guess you are not that interested in Common Lisp specifically.
2020-12-07T09:37:54Z hahawang: Yes, something like #@() #?() $() $@()
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2020-12-07T09:38:13Z phoe: hahawang: might want to visit ##lisp which is for general discussions about various Lisp dialects
2020-12-07T09:38:19Z hahawang: I want extend lisp syntex and called that #? $ `list prefix`
2020-12-07T09:38:28Z phoe: that's doable - in CL it's just reader macros
2020-12-07T09:38:41Z hahawang: Wow!
2020-12-07T09:38:47Z phoe: you can see e.g. https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402 that describes a JSON reader written in CL
2020-12-07T09:39:08Z phoe: where JSON data becomes Lisp data only because of programming the Lisp reader
2020-12-07T09:39:32Z srandon111: ok beach i will but still i want to expllore a little bit
2020-12-07T09:39:46Z srandon111: beach, phoe  the only viable alternative as a cli REPL seems this https://github.com/koji-kojiro/cl-repl
2020-12-07T09:39:50Z srandon111: but it is in alpha
2020-12-07T09:39:55Z beach: srandon111: "good luck with that" :)
2020-12-07T09:39:55Z phoe: I never used that one
2020-12-07T09:39:57Z srandon111: and also i don't know what the hell roswell is
2020-12-07T09:40:05Z phoe: roswell is a Lisp implementation manager
2020-12-07T09:40:14Z lotuseater: hahawang: you have basically three stages: read -> compile -> run. and at all stages the other other two can be called too
2020-12-07T09:40:22Z phoe: I don't know if I can recommend it to people who are new to Lisp in general
2020-12-07T09:40:24Z srandon111: beach, oh ok so there are no cool REPL for lisp on command line ?
2020-12-07T09:40:39Z beach: Not that I know of.
2020-12-07T09:40:47Z srandon111: phoe, what's a lisp implementation manager?
2020-12-07T09:40:47Z phoe: srandon111: none that I know of either
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2020-12-07T09:41:16Z phoe: srandon111: something that is capable of downloading/compiling/installing/selecting different versions of SBCL, CCL, ECL, ABCL, and what else exists
2020-12-07T09:41:17Z hahawang: Sorry, I seems arrogant. Too many thoughts I want to share since research is always lonely.
2020-12-07T09:41:37Z srandon111: wow that's sad it's crazy how for a so REPL oriented language nobody developed a cool command line REPL  outside the Emacs environment such as Slime
2020-12-07T09:41:47Z phoe: srandon111: there is a command line REPL
2020-12-07T09:41:51Z beach: srandon111: It is unusual to use the REPL for writing code.  One typically edits Common Lisp code in an editor buffer, while being assisted with indentation, function signatures, evaluation, etc.
2020-12-07T09:41:51Z srandon111: phoe, ohh that's cool
2020-12-07T09:41:53Z hahawang: Thank you!
2020-12-07T09:41:54Z phoe: it's called slime, and you get it when you run emacs in terminal mode
2020-12-07T09:41:57Z phoe: :D
2020-12-07T09:42:17Z srandon111: beach, i know but it was nice for quick tests with common lisp as i use ipython with python to do that
2020-12-07T09:42:32Z phoe: you can run emacs in a terminal and it works almost the same as in graphical version
2020-12-07T09:43:13Z srandon111: phoe, roswell is another cool thing to have
2020-12-07T09:43:26Z srandon111: since i was used to use pyenv or plenv to manage implementation installation
2020-12-07T09:43:28Z phoe: srandon111: yes, but I cannot recommend it at the moment - it tends to not work sometimes, especially on non-linux
2020-12-07T09:43:43Z srandon111: phoe, i am not confident with emacs, i use vim
2020-12-07T09:43:51Z phoe: srandon111: oh! then use vlime and/or slimv
2020-12-07T09:43:53Z srandon111: phoe, i am on gnu / linux luckily
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2020-12-07T09:47:17Z srandon111: phoe, anyway i am plannin to learn emacs
2020-12-07T09:55:03Z hahawang: Oh, reader-macro is pretty cool!
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2020-12-07T09:55:47Z lotuseater: hahawang: yes it can give you much power (and so much responsibility)
2020-12-07T09:57:17Z hahawang: so that I can extend lisp syntax and write something like $@(...).
2020-12-07T09:57:59Z phoe: hahawang: yes, that's the whole purpose
2020-12-07T09:58:08Z phoe: hahawang: https://github.com/y2q-actionman/with-c-syntax
2020-12-07T09:58:22Z phoe: read the README, maybe read the code, please never use it in practice
2020-12-07T09:58:55Z beach: hahawang: I think it is fine to implement a Lisp system in C++ for the purpose of learning how Lisp works internally, but I don't think it's a great idea to use such a thing for "production" code.  It would be much better to choose one of the maintained Common Lisp implementations that fits your needs.
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2020-12-07T09:59:54Z hahawang: thank you, if I have known that half year ago, I could do my reasearch in a more effective way...
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2020-12-07T10:00:07Z phoe: hahawang: that's the way learning goes
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2020-12-07T10:00:36Z phoe: often you recognize that someone already went in the direction you are going in; minds think alike
2020-12-07T10:02:34Z hahawang: beach: Thank you very much. In practise, I found debugging is quite hard when I want to write something from scratch, especially for non-trivial code. It's better to use exsiting mature one. Thank you very much, very helpful.
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2020-12-07T10:02:40Z srandon111: beach, why you were complaining about cl-repl, once i compiled roswell it was super easy to install it and run
2020-12-07T10:02:46Z srandon111: phoe, cl-repl seems cool
2020-12-07T10:02:59Z phoe: srandon111: again, I never used it
2020-12-07T10:03:04Z phoe: so I cannot say much about it
2020-12-07T10:03:19Z beach: srandon111: I didn't complain about cl-repl.
2020-12-07T10:03:24Z beach: I know nothing about it.
2020-12-07T10:03:28Z srandon111: ok phoe i installed it and works flawlessly i wonder why it is not on quickisp
2020-12-07T10:03:42Z beach: But I can't imagine how a command-line REPL would be a substitute for SLIME.
2020-12-07T10:03:44Z srandon111: beach, sorry maybe i misread some of your messages
2020-12-07T10:03:57Z srandon111: beach, it is not... i just wanted to explore some repls
2020-12-07T10:04:03Z phoe: srandon111: likely because it has roswell as a prerequisite
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2020-12-07T10:04:15Z beach: srandon111: For example, I rely on instant feedback to see the lambda list of a function that I am about to write a call for.
2020-12-07T10:04:26Z srandon111: so that e.g., if i am in my terminal without emacs open and i want to test my short lisp code it is useful to have
2020-12-07T10:04:48Z phoe: srandon111: I usually have emacs running in another window so I can test my stuff there
2020-12-07T10:04:54Z beach: srandon111: I find I can't even work well if I have (say) Clouseau running (which then prevents that feedback) in the same thread.
2020-12-07T10:04:57Z phoe: like, leave it open for days or weeks
2020-12-07T10:06:11Z beach: srandon111: It is not as useful as you might think.  As phoe says, you would typically have an editor window and a REPL in the same process, and they would talk to each other, so that you get instant feedback and other help.
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2020-12-07T10:07:10Z beach: srandon111: In your case, how would you get code from your editor to your REPL?
2020-12-07T10:07:25Z beach: srandon111: Use the mouse to copy-paste?
2020-12-07T10:07:46Z beach: srandon111: If that's what you are used to, I strongly recommend you upgrade to something better.
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2020-12-07T10:10:12Z beach: srandon111: Also, as phoe says, there is absolutely no reason not to have Emacs running.
2020-12-07T10:10:31Z phoe: beach: well not exactly
2020-12-07T10:10:43Z phoe: sometimes it hangs on me or has a memory leak and I gotta restart it, you know
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2020-12-07T10:11:12Z beach: phoe: That was a pedagogical first-level approximation.
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2020-12-07T10:11:18Z beach: Sorry I didn't make that clear.
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2020-12-07T10:11:58Z ldb: good eve
2020-12-07T10:12:04Z beach: Hello ldb.
2020-12-07T10:13:41Z phantomics_: Evening ldb
2020-12-07T10:14:03Z ldb: someone other day told me there's a book Building Problem Solvers that uses common lisp but I didn't know
2020-12-07T10:14:19Z phantomics_: A question: I have a function that creates a software package with a given name, and then creates some dynamic variables in the package
2020-12-07T10:14:37Z phoe: a software package - you mean a Lisp package?
2020-12-07T10:14:50Z phantomics_: It creates the dynamic variables like this (setf (symbol-value '*symbol-name*) value)
2020-12-07T10:14:54Z phantomics_: Yes, a Lisp package
2020-12-07T10:15:03Z phoe: that is not enough
2020-12-07T10:15:09Z phoe: PROCLAIM it SPECIAL beforehand
2020-12-07T10:15:24Z ldb: you can build symbol on the fly using INTERN
2020-12-07T10:15:32Z beach: phantomics_: Why would you do it that way rather than using DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER?
2020-12-07T10:15:35Z phantomics_: Intern is that I actually use
2020-12-07T10:15:38Z phoe: beach: at runtime, I guess
2020-12-07T10:15:46Z phantomics_: Yes, at runtime
2020-12-07T10:16:02Z ldb: if your problem is that lisp read cannot recognize the package
2020-12-07T10:16:04Z phoe: so using PROCLAIM SPECIAL + SETF SYMBOL-VALUE would be equivalent to EVAL DEFPARAMETER
2020-12-07T10:16:13Z phoe: or COMPILE NIL LAMBDA DEFPARAMETER
2020-12-07T10:16:20Z phoe: just fully at runtime.
2020-12-07T10:16:38Z phoe: and phantomics_ is free to pick his poison over which one to use
2020-12-07T10:16:42Z ldb: *lisp reader
2020-12-07T10:17:14Z ldb: there might be a very unique need for that
2020-12-07T10:17:16Z phoe: err, also FUNCALL that COMPILE'd function
2020-12-07T10:17:20Z phantomics_: so (progn (proclaim (special 'package::*var*)) (setf (symbol-value 'package::*var*) value)) will do it?
2020-12-07T10:17:27Z splittist: ldb: I like the conditionals in the Building Problem Solvers code:  Lucid, Symbolics, MCL, ACLPC, RT, RIOS, IRIX, ILS, PARC (:
2020-12-07T10:17:28Z phoe: ldb: I assume it's for april
2020-12-07T10:17:32Z phantomics_: Yes, it's for April
2020-12-07T10:17:36Z phoe: phantomics_: yes, as long as PACKAGE exists
2020-12-07T10:17:42Z phantomics_: April creates packages on the fly to use as its workspaces
2020-12-07T10:17:43Z phoe: otherwise the reader will explode
2020-12-07T10:17:57Z phantomics_: APL has a concept of workspaces roughly analagous to Lisp packages
2020-12-07T10:18:26Z phoe: nice
2020-12-07T10:18:35Z ldb: I guess workspace is very different from lisp package, it is more like a heap image
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2020-12-07T10:19:41Z phantomics_: Yes, from an implementation standpoint
2020-12-07T10:20:00Z phoe: "The workspace is a fundamental concept in APL. It enables you to develop a project as a series of small pieces of program logic. These are organized into functions, operators and classes, as described below. (...)"
2020-12-07T10:20:04Z phoe: from http://microapl.com/APL/apl_concepts_chapter2.html
2020-12-07T10:20:12Z phantomics_: APL is very unlike most languages in that it still carries many mainframe-era conventions
2020-12-07T10:20:25Z ldb: splittist: like how people wrote C in the old days :D
2020-12-07T10:20:27Z phoe: I assume that these can be named by CL symbols, at which point a package sounds like a decent choice
2020-12-07T10:20:37Z phantomics_: The norm for APL is to develop software directly in an APL REPL, writing all functions there. Those functions are saved in the workspace
2020-12-07T10:20:53Z phantomics_: In modern APLs you can save those workspaces to binary files and then load them later
2020-12-07T10:21:09Z phoe: as in, functions, operators, classes - these are nameable in CL, except functions and operators become kinda melded into one
2020-12-07T10:21:22Z phoe: phantomics_: nice! that's the equivalent of Lisp FASLs
2020-12-07T10:21:30Z phoe: (more or less)
2020-12-07T10:21:35Z phantomics_: The use case isn't quite the same
2020-12-07T10:22:21Z sgibber2018: REPLs are the best. Interactive programming ftw
2020-12-07T10:22:32Z phantomics_: It's like if you had no lisp files and typed all your functions into the REPL, can you generate a FASL after doing that?
2020-12-07T10:22:48Z ldb: no
2020-12-07T10:22:53Z phoe: phantomics_: it's possible to dump the whole Lisp image, but not parts of it
2020-12-07T10:22:57Z phantomics_: Didn't think so
2020-12-07T10:23:19Z phoe: I assume it could be possible with enough implementation support, or even written in portable Lisp though
2020-12-07T10:23:24Z emys: is there something like a CLASSPATH environment variable to tell ASDF where to look for installed packages?
2020-12-07T10:23:36Z phantomics_: April allows you to load APL source from files, currently the only REPL is invoking (april) calls through a Lisp REPL but I'm looking into building an Emacs-based pure APL REPL for it
2020-12-07T10:23:43Z phoe: emys: asdf:*central-registry*
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2020-12-07T10:25:02Z ldb: phantomics_: will you support some exotic extentions (probably some from NARS2000) other than ISO APL?
2020-12-07T10:25:20Z phantomics_: Also, the traditional way to write APL functions is to use an in-REPL line editor mode that works a bit differently than the regular REPL. It wasn't until the 80s that the concept of an inline function definition existed in APL
2020-12-07T10:26:01Z beach: The famous "del" editor?
2020-12-07T10:26:12Z phantomics_: Yes
2020-12-07T10:26:44Z ldb: Del is fun to use, from a text editor hobbist point of view
2020-12-07T10:27:23Z phantomics_: Part of the reason APL stuck with these conventions is that they worked so well on the original APL mainframes, it was an incredibly efficient environment to work in
2020-12-07T10:27:48Z phantomics_: ldb: ISO APL is fulfilled by APL/2 and GNU APL, right? I have almost all of the lexical functions and operators in Dyalog APL, along with some features from k
2020-12-07T10:28:41Z phantomics_: I have the ∘, @, ⍨, ⍤, ⍥, ⍣, ⍸, and others not included in APL/2
2020-12-07T10:29:54Z phantomics_: There are also k-style if-statements like $[oneorzero;1;0] and n-argument functions: g←{[a;b;c] a+b×c} ⋄ g[2;3;4] => 14
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2020-12-07T10:30:51Z ldb: phantomics_: what about trains and atops?
2020-12-07T10:31:03Z phantomics_: Have those too
2020-12-07T10:31:30Z ldb needs to update quicklisp dists
2020-12-07T10:31:40Z phoe: ∘, @, ⍨, ⍤, ⍥, ⍣, ⍸
2020-12-07T10:32:30Z phoe: to me, a person who never used APL, they are, thought-provoking, amusing, and look like emoji and/or emoji parts
2020-12-07T10:32:40Z phoe: which is IMO a good reason to finally learn APL someday!
2020-12-07T10:33:01Z phantomics_: To my knowledge I have the most complete implementation of the ⍣¯x function inversion feature aside from Dyalog, and later I'll be able to expand it to support arbitrary user-defined functions within a narrow set of criteria
2020-12-07T10:34:21Z phantomics_: Something you might notice is that some APL characters are used as components in others: ¨ ∘ ⍤ ○ ⍥ _ ⍸ ~ ⍨
2020-12-07T10:35:06Z ldb: Last time I tried April, the (2∘⊥⍣¯1) was not yet working
2020-12-07T10:35:11Z phantomics_: Back in the teletype terminal days, those characters were entered by typing two symbols over each other
2020-12-07T10:35:16Z phoe: was APL the reason Unicode was created?
2020-12-07T10:35:27Z ldb: guess not
2020-12-07T10:35:59Z phantomics_: Using APL required a custom typeball from IBM, and there was only space for so many characters on it, so they created a bunch of overstruck character variations to support more symbols
2020-12-07T10:36:00Z phoe: the choice of characters in APL is really fascinating
2020-12-07T10:36:15Z ldb: actually you can think you have sacrificed lower case letters for those symbols
2020-12-07T10:36:31Z phantomics_: Yes, the original APL typeball had only italic uppercase
2020-12-07T10:38:29Z phantomics_: Looks like (2∘⊥⍣¯1) still doesn't work correctly, I'll check into that
2020-12-07T10:38:56Z phantomics_: A binary encoder?
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2020-12-07T10:40:17Z ldb: yes, it was because I want to working on a very large number that typical APL cannot support
2020-12-07T10:40:29Z ldb: like 123*55
2020-12-07T10:40:50Z sgibber2018: That really does sound like a neat language
2020-12-07T10:41:18Z phantomics_: You can do stuff that takes a dozen nested loops in a regular language in one line
2020-12-07T10:41:50Z phantomics_: Hmm, I seem to be mistaken about the nature of ⊥⍣¯1
2020-12-07T10:42:17Z phantomics_: I thought that (2∘⊥⍣¯1) 5 was the same was (2∘⊤) 5, but it isn't
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2020-12-07T10:43:19Z sgibber2018: What is the difference?
2020-12-07T10:43:40Z ldb: if it is just ⊤, it needs to write APL code calculate the length of the result array
2020-12-07T10:43:53Z phantomics_: (2∘⊥⍣¯1) 5 => 1 0 1 , (2∘⊤) 5 => 1
2020-12-07T10:44:15Z sgibber2018: Oh that's neat.
2020-12-07T10:44:30Z ldb: (2 2 2∘⊤) 5 => 1 0 1
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2020-12-07T10:45:31Z phantomics_: Oh, so it calculates the length of the resulting array from (2∘⊥) 5, and then extends the length of the scalar left argument to ⊤ to match that length?
2020-12-07T10:47:37Z phantomics_: phoe: Unicode wasn't created for April, actually due to the lack of character support the APL creators released another vector language in the 90s called J that used only ASCII
2020-12-07T10:47:42Z ldb: for an optimized implementation, calculate the length only needs a few machine instructions on the right arg
2020-12-07T10:47:54Z phoe: phantomics_: yes, sorry; the question was a poor joke
2020-12-07T10:48:47Z phantomics_: What's really funny is that in the 80s, there was an APL solution for IBM PCs in the form of a custom graphics card. It had a physical switch on it that you would flip to change between APL characters and the regular MS-DOS character set
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2020-12-07T10:50:32Z phoe: phantomics_: you give me the same kind of mad scientist vibe that drmeister gives me; dunno, maybe it's the tendency to have advanced Lisp interoperability with other programming languages, maybe it's just the same hair style
2020-12-07T10:54:01Z phantomics_: Hadn't looked much into Clasp before, has he done any videos?
2020-12-07T10:55:33Z lotuseater: phantomics_: yes two awesome talks, one from 2015 and one from 2018
2020-12-07T10:56:07Z lotuseater: it's much about the molecule design aspect
2020-12-07T10:56:51Z phoe: phantomics_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X69_42Mj-g is a relatively old but good one
2020-12-07T10:57:15Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbdXeRBbgDM is the 2018 one I presume
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2020-12-07T10:58:38Z srandon111: guys how can i search documentation for a function with SLIME ?
2020-12-07T10:58:50Z phoe: I always do (describe 'foo) in the REPL
2020-12-07T10:59:05Z no-defun-allowed: phantomics_: Silly question, have you looked at heisig's Petalisp compiler? That was also (partly) inspired by APL\3000 from memory, and so it /could/ be a backend for April.
2020-12-07T10:59:10Z beach: phoe: for a SLIME function?
2020-12-07T10:59:25Z beach: Oh, for a Common Lisp function, using SLIME.  I get it.
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2020-12-07T11:00:37Z no-defun-allowed: Well, there are a lot of APL programs that can't be expressed in Petalisp, but it'd be good for a lot of array churning.
2020-12-07T11:00:42Z phantomics_: no-defun-allowed: I have, it's AGPL which is pretty limiting, I saw another one a while back that wrapped numpy for large operations and used optimized Lisp for smaller things
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2020-12-07T11:01:27Z ldb: might just open the backend and let the user customize
2020-12-07T11:01:47Z phantomics_: Yeah, multiple backends are another idea
2020-12-07T11:02:45Z no-defun-allowed: numcl? That is all Common Lisp though, so it's unlikely.
2020-12-07T11:02:52Z phantomics_: From what I've found the ultimate optimization may be to use SBCL's define-vop macro to write array operations directly in ASM
2020-12-07T11:02:57Z phantomics_: Not numcl, something different
2020-12-07T11:03:07Z lotuseater: no-defun-allowed: ah this petalisp with JIT compiling?
2020-12-07T11:03:14Z phantomics_: Numcl from what I saw isn't so focused on efficiency
2020-12-07T11:03:14Z srandon111: phoe, ok i tried... https://bpa.st/N3FA wow this is very difficult to understand i would say
2020-12-07T11:03:23Z srandon111: where can i i learn how to interpret that output  ?
2020-12-07T11:03:41Z no-defun-allowed: lotuseater: Yes, that Petalisp (as opposed to the Petalisp that is used as a DSL by an American animal rights organisation).
2020-12-07T11:04:06Z phantomics_: Haha, PETA-lisp
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2020-12-07T11:04:52Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: Well, you see the lambda-list (loosely "the arguments it takes"), what the compiler has inferred the argument types to be, and then the documentation string.
2020-12-07T11:05:01Z phantomics_: The define-vop method would only support SBCL, though, which is the biggest shortcoming
2020-12-07T11:05:34Z lotuseater: yes, "unportable but fun"
2020-12-07T11:06:01Z phantomics_: Other CLs don't seem to care much about speed, though, so most speed-focused users would be using SBCL anyway
2020-12-07T11:06:09Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, ok if  i want to explore a function ,to understand how it works how can i do? for example let's take this process-input
2020-12-07T11:06:25Z srandon111: is there a way to find examples ?
2020-12-07T11:06:26Z beach: srandon111: Read the documentation.
2020-12-07T11:06:42Z phantomics_: srandon111: the other way to get a function's documentation, for * for example, is (documentation '* 'function)
2020-12-07T11:06:46Z beach: srandon111: What you see there is what the SBCL maintainers happened to produce.
2020-12-07T11:07:29Z srandon111: beach, the documentation it's difficult to understand from the (describe) function
2020-12-07T11:07:43Z beach: I meant the online HTML documentation for SBCL.
2020-12-07T11:08:10Z beach: srandon111: What you are looking at is a so-called "documentation string" which is (or shouldn't be) the real documentation.
2020-12-07T11:08:30Z beach: srandon111: It is only meant as a reminder if you already have an idea what you want.
2020-12-07T11:09:05Z beach: srandon111: Also, like I said, you are at the mercy of the (volunteer) SBCL maintainers, and you get what they happened to produce.
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2020-12-07T11:10:22Z beach: srandon111: That function, by the way, is not a standard Common Lisp function.  For those, you have the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2020-12-07T11:12:13Z srandon111: ok thanks beach
2020-12-07T11:15:20Z beach: Sure.
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2020-12-07T11:18:46Z srandon111: beach, hell wait, are functions case-insensitive in common lisp??
2020-12-07T11:19:03Z beach: No, but the reader up-cases symbols by default.
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2020-12-07T11:19:44Z beach: (symbol-name 'hello) => "HELLO"
2020-12-07T11:19:48Z srandon111: beach, so basically everything is upcase ?
2020-12-07T11:19:58Z srandon111: i mean all symbols are upcase
2020-12-07T11:19:59Z jackdaniel: (symbol-name '|hello|) => "hello"
2020-12-07T11:20:07Z srandon111: what's the motivation behind this?
2020-12-07T11:20:10Z jackdaniel: by default reader upcases symbols, you may change that
2020-12-07T11:20:30Z jackdaniel: (or prevent upcasing with ||, like I did above)
2020-12-07T11:21:28Z jackdaniel: srandon111: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/23_ab.htm
2020-12-07T11:21:52Z srandon111: i am ok with the default i was just wondering the reason
2020-12-07T11:22:01Z jackdaniel: backward compatibility
2020-12-07T11:22:16Z lotuseater: imo its "motivation" is for elegance
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2020-12-07T11:22:33Z jackdaniel: I have always wondered, why the readtable case :invert is present - what's the purpose of it?
2020-12-07T11:22:58Z jackdaniel: something like an easter egg putting burden on the implementers? :)
2020-12-07T11:23:04Z lotuseater: oh that can be just for fun? :D
2020-12-07T11:23:55Z srandon111: jackdaniel, what's the readtable case :invert ?
2020-12-07T11:24:16Z srandon111: inverting the case when reading a table by default?
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2020-12-07T11:24:33Z jackdaniel: if your reader is set to invert the case of symbols, then when you type 'zebra, the symbol name is "ZEBRA", if you type 'ZEBRA, it's name is "zebra"
2020-12-07T11:24:41Z Xach: srandon111: all-lowercase symbol tokens are converted to uppercase, and vice-versa. Mixed case is preserved.
2020-12-07T11:24:51Z Xach: So you can have a symbol token of FooBar and its name becomes "FooBar"
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2020-12-07T11:25:17Z jackdaniel: s/it's/its/
2020-12-07T11:25:20Z Xach: Lowercase input code is compatible with CL, and mixed case can be used if you are using it in a situation where mixed case is helpful.
2020-12-07T11:25:35Z Xach: Maybe writing macros to generate code in camelCase environments?
2020-12-07T11:25:53Z jackdaniel: perhaps
2020-12-07T11:26:29Z ldb: I guess the invert is for some terminals that use upper case as defualt "lower case" and still has lower case present
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2020-12-07T11:26:39Z Xach: I mean, if you are working with some external system where symbolic manipulation of mixed-case tokens is important.
2020-12-07T11:26:52Z Xach: ldb: no
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2020-12-07T11:27:00Z Xach: It postdates that by a long time.
2020-12-07T11:27:35Z jackdaniel: Xach: preserve would be much better fit then, no?
2020-12-07T11:28:03Z Xach: jackdaniel: why? then you would have to write the rest of the code as (DEFUN fooBar () (CONS 'mySymbol 42))
2020-12-07T11:28:25Z jackdaniel: hm
2020-12-07T11:28:51Z Nilby: IT'S SO IT WORKS ON A TELETYPE MODEL 30.
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2020-12-07T11:29:01Z Xach: Actually, I should not say that about :invert history with certainty. It is only my strong impression. It would be nice to know the story from one of the designers.
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2020-12-07T11:30:16Z jackdaniel: Xach: it seems that your strong impression is right: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss286_w.htm
2020-12-07T11:30:19Z jackdaniel: (see "rationale")
2020-12-07T11:31:04Z Xach: ah, ok, thanks!
2020-12-07T11:31:13Z jackdaniel: sure
2020-12-07T11:31:47Z Xach: I don't think I have seen that before, I have only seen second-order rationalizations of the feature. It's nice to see the primary reference.
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2020-12-07T11:37:06Z phantomics_: I don't see a point for case-sensitive Lisp readers, it's more of an annoyance than a help
2020-12-07T11:37:29Z phantomics_: If you're doing mixed cases in a language, it should follow a consistent pattern, like camelCase variable names
2020-12-07T11:37:34Z madnificent: phantomics_: connecting with external stuff, it helps in that regard.
2020-12-07T11:37:54Z phantomics_: In that case the capitals serve to separate sections of a symbol; in Lisp this is done with dashes
2020-12-07T11:38:30Z madnificent: phantomics_: We have a lisp file with a DSL to specify a JSON:API compliant glue.  Not having casing confuses people (they input dasherized and that kind-of works fine)
2020-12-07T11:38:44Z phantomics_: madnificent: in that case I'd usually opt to convert dashes to camel-case
2020-12-07T11:39:01Z phantomics_: That's what I do in April and in a few JSON conversion situations
2020-12-07T11:39:08Z madnificent: phantomics_: we do that, but non-lisp devs forget.  Would be handy if we could even warn about it.
2020-12-07T11:39:11Z Xach: What is the dash version of VMKitDashUI?
2020-12-07T11:39:15Z no-defun-allowed: Case insensitivity lets you write sarcastic code like (wHeN (nUlL nUmBeRs) (ErRoR "maximum of zero numbers is undefined"))
2020-12-07T11:39:19Z jackdaniel: common lisp (unlike many other languages), is not very opinionated regarding how you should write things (i.e it doesn't impose on the programmer a particular style of programming)
2020-12-07T11:39:24Z Xach: no-defun-allowed: i like that
2020-12-07T11:39:39Z jackdaniel: that's how I usually explain to myself features I do not use or like
2020-12-07T11:39:55Z Xach: lol
2020-12-07T11:40:02Z no-defun-allowed: Xach: I think most camelcasing people would make you write acronyms the wrong way, like VmKitDashUi or HttpRequest
2020-12-07T11:40:53Z Nilby: "no worse than character macros" With great power comes great potential unreadability.
2020-12-07T11:40:59Z splittist: xml v XML v Xml ...
2020-12-07T11:41:08Z phantomics_: Those examples may be incorrect but they're actually more readable
2020-12-07T11:41:20Z no-defun-allowed: If you wrote them the right way, then you'd be done for; I know my Minecraft FFI has wonders like find-entities-in-a-a-b-b.
2020-12-07T11:41:23Z madnificent: I think you can make something unreadable in both approaches.  Having the freedom could help, though I like lowercase dasherized form currently used I would like to have the case-sensitive option for integrations.
2020-12-07T11:41:58Z phantomics_: I have to do lots of find-entities-in-a-a-b-b when generating Javascript and React code from Lisp
2020-12-07T11:41:59Z Xach: My solution is to avoid working with camelcase systems rather than embrace :preserve or some other system.
2020-12-07T11:42:09Z phantomics_: *stuff like find-entities-in-a-a-b-b
2020-12-07T11:42:46Z Nilby: tHEnEXTwINDOW or TheNeXTWindow O_o
2020-12-07T11:43:01Z no-defun-allowed: But if you use the first kind of camel casing,  then vm-kit-dash-ui translates correctly.
2020-12-07T11:43:15Z phantomics_: Hard to get around using Web frameworks when you want an accessible interface
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2020-12-07T11:43:43Z Nilby: I have found it efficacious to have a de-camelcaserizer bound to a key.
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2020-12-07T11:45:16Z no-defun-allowed: In 70 LOC of mostly FFI stuff, I only have one annoying name (the forementioned minecraft:get-entities-within-a-a-b-b). But it is a really annoying name.
2020-12-07T11:46:36Z no-defun-allowed: I also need to strip off the get- and set- prefixes one day, but that creates some name collisions.
2020-12-07T11:47:34Z lotuseater: oh cool you're coding minecraft stuff with CL?
2020-12-07T11:48:59Z no-defun-allowed: Well, I haven't for a while, but I have a library to poke around with ABCL.
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2020-12-07T12:16:03Z phantomics_: What kind of data models are you using for Minecraft content? 3d arrays?
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2020-12-07T13:00:30Z ldb: hashset of triples
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2020-12-07T13:20:23Z phantomics_: ldb is the Minecraft interface source available somewhere? Can't find it
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2020-12-07T13:42:49Z splittist: "Compared to the explosive growth of the 1980s, the trend for the 1990s seems to be a continual, quiet propagation of artificial intelligence techniques into mainstream computing."
2020-12-07T13:43:58Z splittist: (Forbus and De Kleer, Building Problem Solvers (1993))
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2020-12-07T14:23:03Z pfdietz: In the bleak AI winter, long ago.
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2020-12-07T14:34:07Z phantomics_: no-defun-allowed: since you brought up Petalisp, here is the other library I was looking at as a potential accelerator for April: https://github.com/digikar99/numericals
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2020-12-07T14:38:42Z shka_: is there a way to convince local-time to handle PM/AM format of hours?
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2020-12-07T14:54:16Z shka_: regex it is!
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2020-12-07T14:55:53Z splittist: shka_:  format-timestring has :hour12 and :ampm (or did you mean actual uppercase AM/PM?)
2020-12-07T14:57:28Z flip214: qqq
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2020-12-07T15:00:56Z flip214: sorry, tried to escape less
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2020-12-07T15:44:33Z spal: join #python
2020-12-07T15:44:45Z beach: Hmm.
2020-12-07T15:44:47Z spal: oops! sorry about that.
2020-12-07T15:46:01Z jackdaniel: I didn't know that cmu compiler has a dedicated channel
2020-12-07T15:47:05Z pyc: jackdaniel: what's the channel name? I guessed #cmucl but it has only one member.
2020-12-07T15:47:33Z jackdaniel: pyc: I was making fun of #python - cmu compiler /internal/ name is "python"
2020-12-07T15:47:33Z pyc: #sbcl has 92 nicks, so that seems like a dedicated channel. what's the one for CMU CL?
2020-12-07T15:47:56Z jackdaniel: cmucl doesn't have a dedicated channel afaik
2020-12-07T15:48:02Z jackdaniel: on freenode that is
2020-12-07T15:48:36Z pyc: oh! I didn't know cmu cl is also known as "python"
2020-12-07T15:48:56Z jackdaniel: its compiler is known as 'python', not the implementation per se
2020-12-07T15:49:01Z pyc: From Wikipedia article on CMU CL: "A native code compiler named "Python" (not to be confused with the Python programming language)."
2020-12-07T15:50:12Z _death: when people say python is slow, you can point them to sbcl ;)
2020-12-07T15:50:59Z _death: that will either (i) show them python is fast or (ii) show them lisp is fast
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2020-12-07T15:54:16Z pfdietz: cmucl has been largely superseded.
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2020-12-07T16:46:27Z jmercouris: phoe: I’m sure you’ve seen the most majestic thread on Github
2020-12-07T16:46:35Z jmercouris: phoe: what are your thoughts?
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2020-12-07T16:47:06Z phoe: jmercouris: there are hundreds of majestic github threads and I don't know which one you are refering to
2020-12-07T16:47:16Z Bike: each more majestic than the last
2020-12-07T16:47:18Z jmercouris: phoe: the most majestic of all
2020-12-07T16:47:23Z phoe: oh!
2020-12-07T16:47:29Z jmercouris: the one which will realize is a revolution in Lisp
2020-12-07T16:47:38Z jmercouris: architected by the master architect himself!
2020-12-07T16:47:52Z phoe: must be the thread the one where I suggest adding quicklisp-quackload to quicklisp repos
2020-12-07T16:47:53Z jmercouris: https://github.com/Hexstream/sponsors.hexstreamsoft.com/issues/1
2020-12-07T16:48:05Z jmercouris: lol no, not that one
2020-12-07T16:48:09Z jmercouris: the one linked above
2020-12-07T16:48:19Z phoe: oh god
2020-12-07T16:48:39Z phoe: somebody just link my analysis and/or Twitter threads there, because I'm too dangerous for the Common Lisp community and therefore blocked from posting there
2020-12-07T16:48:59Z jmercouris: lol, he will just delete it
2020-12-07T16:49:03Z aeth: I mean
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2020-12-07T16:50:02Z aeth: how much would it annoy Hexstreamsoft if someone set up a Common Lisp Patreon or something along those lines, but splitting the money among the "Common Lisp mafia"?
2020-12-07T16:50:14Z aeth: so phoe mfiano Xach beach and so on.
2020-12-07T16:50:21Z aeth: It would have more of an impact, too
2020-12-07T16:50:44Z jmercouris: lol, that would be hilarious
2020-12-07T16:50:58Z jmercouris: but probably insufficient for a meaningful support
2020-12-07T16:52:24Z aeth: Another thing you could do is come up with a cryptocurrency written in Common Lisp, but instead of having a fixed supply or using miners, every year (or month or whatever), it would go to such people in the CL community. Probably not even worth cashing initially, but there's always a chance it'd explode in popularity.
2020-12-07T16:52:52Z phoe: aeth: impersonation is not legal you know
2020-12-07T16:52:57Z aeth: phoe: ?
2020-12-07T16:53:20Z phoe: oh wait
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2020-12-07T16:53:30Z phoe: I terribly misread
2020-12-07T16:53:36Z phoe: you want a *Common Lisp* Patreon
2020-12-07T16:53:48Z aeth: phoe: My point was, it would be aimed only at people Hexstreamsoft hates, ideally with their consent (since otherwise, there's no guarantee that they could cash out) since they tend to actually, legitimately contribute to the community
2020-12-07T16:54:10Z phoe: sorry, I'm too annoyed by this #<error printing object> as of late.
2020-12-07T16:54:34Z aeth: the Patreon would be more practical, but the cryptocurrency would be more entertaining
2020-12-07T16:54:39Z aeth: imagine having #<money 42>
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2020-12-07T16:55:22Z aeth: (and actually idk if hexstreamsoft hates beach yet)
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2020-12-07T16:55:51Z phoe: I assume so, Xach flicked his magic wand at beach and turned him into a member of the lisp mafia
2020-12-07T16:55:58Z beach: aeth: Giving me money wouldn't help anything.
2020-12-07T16:57:07Z beach: aeth: He probably does.  He created what he says is an improvement on my MOP pages, and demanded that I take down mine and promote his version here (among other places).
2020-12-07T16:57:10Z phoe: aeth: I no longer care about annoying him; I care about minimizing whatever spam and lies he throws out there into who seems to be literally everyone in the Lisp community.
2020-12-07T16:57:44Z aeth: phoe: I mean, he was playing the long game, but now we see what it really was for the whole time. Money.
2020-12-07T16:57:45Z beach: aeth: I just told him that he could promote his as much as he wants, but that my work in that domain was done.
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2020-12-07T16:58:38Z phoe: anyone cares for posting https://gist.github.com/phoe/ccba343687dc21e3a71d0dc6db68c96e there even if he deletes it? I'll just poke the GitHub Support abuse team.
2020-12-07T16:58:56Z _death: this channel is deteriorating by the minute
2020-12-07T16:59:04Z phoe: yes
2020-12-07T17:01:17Z phoe: and, honestly, this is what the "just ignore him" approach leads to
2020-12-07T17:05:13Z jackdaniel: there is a fine line between ignoring someone and staying on topic
2020-12-07T17:05:59Z phoe: I'll take an evening off
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2020-12-07T17:08:21Z aeth: the problem is that there's no room for this sort of off-topic thing in #lispcafe because it's currently on-topic
2020-12-07T17:08:28Z aeth: talking about optimizing arithmetic
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2020-12-07T17:17:05Z jeosol: I just recently became ware of the issues with hexstream and reading phoe's link. Is there away to mediate this and resolve these issues or it has gone beyond that point. Hoping there is some kind of common ground to put all this behind
2020-12-07T17:18:06Z jeosol: phoe: you wrote that analysis and compiled the stuff in that link?
2020-12-07T17:18:06Z jackdaniel: to put it bluntly, hextream is a bat shit crazy and there is no reasoning. I appreciate phoe's work on that and I pity him - not something he'll get much kudos for. that said, I'd rather keep the topic of this channel related to technicalities of common lisp
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2020-12-07T17:18:43Z jackdaniel waves his moderator badge
2020-12-07T17:19:20Z jeosol: jackdaniel: I do agree completely apart staying on point. These arguments aren't very helpful and a bit shocked to see what the hexstream posted with the insults. Anyway, I'd leave this since I don' t have much context
2020-12-07T17:19:27Z phoe: jeosol: yes, I compiled this stuff, I analyzed this contents, and now let's go into private messages because jackdaniel does have a point.
2020-12-07T17:19:39Z jeosol: ok
2020-12-07T17:19:52Z jackdaniel: thank you, I appreciate that
2020-12-07T17:19:57Z phoe quietly goes to #lispcafe because that's where he has a moderator badge
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2020-12-07T17:35:02Z jackdaniel: to stop this awkward slience, I'll share a short screencast of a sheet manager: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/cc5772ae-windows.webm (testing asynchronous execute-frame-command invocations)
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2020-12-07T17:36:54Z phoe: I like the term "puffup"
2020-12-07T17:36:56Z jeosol: jackdaniel: very nice
2020-12-07T17:37:10Z phoe: it's awesome
2020-12-07T17:37:33Z jackdaniel: thanks
2020-12-07T17:37:40Z _death: looks great
2020-12-07T17:43:07Z phantomics: Interesting, is the source for this online?
2020-12-07T17:43:25Z jackdaniel: check out backend-manual branch from McCLIM repository
2020-12-07T17:43:32Z jackdaniel: and I can upload this shim, why not
2020-12-07T17:44:28Z jackdaniel: phantomics: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/5184f4a1-desktop.lisp
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2020-12-07T17:45:49Z jackdaniel: mind that this is more a hack, before making it a demo it needs polishing
2020-12-07T17:46:20Z jackdaniel: also, lack of double buffering shows, something we hope to address before the manual is finished
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2020-12-07T17:51:23Z beach: Still, great work!
2020-12-07T17:52:00Z edgar-rft pops up the IRC window and the first thing he reads is "death looks great" what makes him know that he's in the right channel
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2020-12-07T17:52:13Z phoe: edgar-rft: :D
2020-12-07T17:52:14Z jackdaniel: thanks. also notice the icon - it has been recently implemented by scymtym
2020-12-07T17:52:16Z phoe: oh that's a good laugh
2020-12-07T17:52:57Z nij: Hello. Given an array A and a slot S in it, how to get the neighboring slots for S?
2020-12-07T17:53:21Z phoe: nij: what's S? a list of array indices?
2020-12-07T17:53:26Z nij: Thinking mathematically, if S=A[n], then I'm hoping to get A[n-1] and A[n+1].
2020-12-07T17:53:27Z jackdaniel: I don't think that you can safely assume, that array has some slots accessible to the user
2020-12-07T17:53:28Z phoe: how many dimensions are we speaking?
2020-12-07T17:53:39Z nij: 1 dimension
2020-12-07T17:53:52Z ck_: jackdaniel: I don't think this meant 'slot' in the clos way
2020-12-07T17:53:55Z phoe: oh so it's a vector
2020-12-07T17:54:04Z jackdaniel: uhm
2020-12-07T17:54:05Z nij: phoe: Oh yeah.
2020-12-07T17:54:07Z phoe: (list (1+ n) (1- n)) and then verify that these are valid
2020-12-07T17:54:25Z phoe: so not less than 0 and not greater-or-equal to length of that vector
2020-12-07T17:54:54Z ck_: nij: you'll probably want to use (position s array) to get n, assuming there is only one s in it (and that I interpret your question correctly)
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2020-12-07T17:55:18Z phoe: ck_: I assume that he already knows the index
2020-12-07T17:55:25Z phoe: and he wants the "neighbors"
2020-12-07T17:55:35Z nij: phoe: I think ck_ interprets what I want correctly..
2020-12-07T17:55:41Z nij: I don't know n in general..
2020-12-07T17:55:57Z nij: I'm hoping to write a function f that takes in a slot in an array
2020-12-07T17:56:12Z nij: and loop that function f over the whole array
2020-12-07T17:56:15Z jackdaniel: cdr gives you the list tail, and cir gives you the chimera leg
2020-12-07T17:56:30Z nij: each time, it will return the neighbors of the slot
2020-12-07T17:57:06Z Bike: when you say "a slot in an array", what do you mean? an object stored in an array?
2020-12-07T17:57:24Z nij: "for all s in array, return (position s array)" seems to be what I want.
2020-12-07T17:57:27Z Bike: in C you could have a pointer to a particular array position, but no in lisp.
2020-12-07T17:57:37Z nij: I have to teach soon but will try this 'position right after that.
2020-12-07T17:57:39Z Bike: so the array never has duplicates in it?
2020-12-07T17:57:52Z ck_: nij: 'slot' has a special meaning in common lisp (in the common lisp object system). Maybe avoid the word in this context.
2020-12-07T17:57:58Z jackdaniel: Bike: displaced array could serve such purpose I think
2020-12-07T17:58:07Z phoe: jackdaniel: there are two chimera legs: cbr and ccr, this is because B and C are between A and D
2020-12-07T17:58:10Z nij: Yeah.. I don't really know the terminologies here yet.
2020-12-07T17:58:23Z aeth: nij: idiomatically, every sequence function should have start/end or start1/end1/start2/end2
2020-12-07T17:58:41Z aeth: so instead of returning a new array pointer that points to some position in the array, you work with indices
2020-12-07T17:58:49Z jackdaniel: phoe: CIR as in "Contents of the Increment Register"
2020-12-07T17:59:35Z jackdaniel: if you traverse cir long enough you may call the HCF instruction
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2020-12-07T18:26:57Z pve: Hello! I'd like to wrap the body of the lambda expression with a symbol-macrolet, like so:
2020-12-07T18:27:04Z pve: (lambda (x y) ...) -> (lambda (x y) (symbol-macrolet ((a ...) (b ...)) ...))
2020-12-07T18:27:21Z pve: Is there anything I need to consider besides a symbol-macrolet possibly shadowing a parameter?
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2020-12-07T18:27:54Z pve: Can something go wrong if the body starts with a declare form, and it also gets wrapped by the symbol macrolet?
2020-12-07T18:28:06Z _death: yes.. check out alexandria:parse-body
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2020-12-07T18:28:29Z Bike: yeah to avoid most of that i'd honestly just put the symbol-macrolet on the outside, probably
2020-12-07T18:28:37Z pve: _death: aha thanks
2020-12-07T18:28:39Z Bike: it's only different if the symbol macros could be used in &key defaults or something
2020-12-07T18:29:07Z dbotton: Is there a standard program for generating documentation in html from lisp sources?
2020-12-07T18:29:14Z pve: Bike: the idea is I need to pass the lambda expression to make-method-lambda, and it doesn't seem to like having the symbol-macrolet on the outside
2020-12-07T18:29:28Z Bike: oh, yes, in that case you do need an actual lambda expression.
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2020-12-07T18:30:55Z pve: alright, well alexandria:parse-body seems to take care of this.. thanks
2020-12-07T18:31:30Z _death: dbotton: there is no standard one.. there are legion.. me, I use texinfo and a slightly modified copy of sb-texinfo
2020-12-07T18:33:10Z dbotton: I'll take a look thank you
2020-12-07T18:37:38Z dbotton: That looks good, although I am looking for something that combines the docstrings with comments in the sources sort of thing more
2020-12-07T18:39:39Z _death: oh.. I dislike markup in code.. I remember old attempts like atdoc and there are definitely newer ones as well
2020-12-07T18:40:23Z _death: I think there was a recent blogpost on planet lisp about mgl-pax
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2020-12-07T18:41:25Z phoe: I remember it mentioned on reddit
2020-12-07T18:41:36Z phoe: https://old.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/k4j5cu/project_of_the_day_mglpax_documentation_builder/
2020-12-07T18:42:53Z dbotton: I'll take a look. Not looking for much just something that would collect the comments Introducing sections of code and then operator syntax and doc string sort if thing
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2020-12-07T18:43:03Z dbotton: I'll take a look at those
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2020-12-07T18:52:08Z spxy[m]: Hello!
2020-12-07T18:52:22Z spxy: Hey!
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2020-12-07T18:55:55Z phoe: hellooooo
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2020-12-07T19:31:11Z nij: New to common lisp.. why does it say that the variable 'arr is unbound? https://bpa.st/47NQ
2020-12-07T19:31:43Z nij: OH no... I miss a parenthesis.. :(
2020-12-07T19:31:51Z nij: I need a better interface while editting.
2020-12-07T19:32:05Z nij: doomemacs doesn't handle the syntax coloring nicely by defauly.
2020-12-07T19:32:49Z nij: I thought commonlisp has stricter rules while defining a function than elisp =_= sorry for the dumb question
2020-12-07T19:36:21Z phoe: nij: stricter, as in?
2020-12-07T19:36:30Z phoe: SBCL detects many compile-time errors
2020-12-07T19:36:36Z phoe: and warns you about them at compilation time
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2020-12-07T19:42:38Z ane: and definitely warns you about more things than the emacs byte compiler
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2020-12-07T19:45:13Z jasom: If the SBCL source has moved, is there a way to convince M-. to go to the new location?
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2020-12-07T19:47:32Z Bike: sb-ext:set-sbcl-source-location, i think
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2020-12-07T20:07:27Z jasom: Bike: thanks, that worked
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2020-12-07T21:28:38Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Is there a way using ASDF to exploit SBCL's support for image compression?
2020-12-07T21:29:26Z tychoish: yes
2020-12-07T21:29:49Z moon-child: Aurora_v_kosmose: https://github.com/moon-chilled/FancyEngine2/blob/lisp/fe2.asd#L22
2020-12-07T21:30:54Z tychoish: https://github.com/tychoish/eggquilibrium/blob/main/eggquilibrium.asd#L18-L23
2020-12-07T21:31:23Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Ah, thanks.
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2020-12-07T22:14:56Z oni-on-ion: can ASDF compile C libs ?
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2020-12-07T22:29:41Z Xach: oni-on-ion: yes, in the sense that you can write rules to do anything.
2020-12-07T22:30:03Z Xach: oni-on-ion: i think there may even be examples in the manual, and examples in wild .asd files too.
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2020-12-07T22:45:20Z oni-on-ion: Xach, ah great. thanks
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2020-12-07T22:55:39Z susam2[m]: 🚀😕
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2020-12-08T01:07:39Z thmprover: OK, I have an interesting conundrum: I want to make a `thm` class, to track results proven from axioms and other theorems. BUT I don't want anyone to be able to "cheat" and construct their own `thm` instances. Is there any way to raise an exception if `make-instance` is called for `thm` outside of certain white-listed packages?
2020-12-08T01:08:28Z no-defun-allowed: Does instantiating a thereom put it somewhere?
2020-12-08T01:09:34Z thmprover: It just creates an object, it doesn't store it in a "theorem dictionary" anywhere.
2020-12-08T01:09:40Z no-defun-allowed: I would rather have an internal function like ADD-THEOREM-TO-DATABASE, which could also allow for multiple theorem databases.
2020-12-08T01:10:54Z thmprover: Ah, so, that's the next layer of abstraction. You could think of `thm` as working at the "assembly level of mathematics". Having a database of theorems would be at a higher level.
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2020-12-08T01:12:00Z no-defun-allowed: Right, so instantiating a theorem shouldn't be a problem in itself?
2020-12-08T01:12:28Z thmprover: Hmm, maybe you're right, and I'm just overly concerned.
2020-12-08T01:12:40Z thmprover: You know, how hatters go mad? Theorem provers go paranoid.
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2020-12-08T01:27:54Z mfiano: We don't "raise exceptions" in Common Lisp
2020-12-08T01:28:01Z mfiano: We signal conditions. Big difference
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2020-12-08T01:28:55Z thmprover: Well, I wanted the computer to explode into a million pieces, but then I thought, "No, that might be a bit too much..."
2020-12-08T01:29:00Z aeth: An exception is only for exceptional circumstances. A condition is... only for exceptional circumstances. But the latter's way more powerful.
2020-12-08T01:29:29Z aeth: thmprover: and yes, there is
2020-12-08T01:29:32Z aeth: *package*
2020-12-08T01:29:59Z Xach: conditions are not only for exceptional circumstances!
2020-12-08T01:30:26Z aeth: thmprover: I guess (let ((*package* foo)) ...) could be used to cheat, but I've only ever seen *package* change with in-package and if they want to cheat that badly, then let them
2020-12-08T01:31:20Z thmprover: Yeah, I think the best I can do is just make life hard for them if they want to cheat.
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2020-12-08T01:34:49Z Alfr_: Is there some fundamental difference between axioms and theorems in your model? If not, then why not unify them and cheating will hopefully result in some contradiction down the road or let's the user discover an interesting bunch of axioms ...
2020-12-08T01:37:14Z aeth: thmprover: for this sort of thing, I'd personally consider a WARN, actually.
2020-12-08T01:37:20Z aeth: (warn "You shouldn't be doing this.")
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2020-12-08T01:38:31Z no-defun-allowed: On the other hand, if the user cheats, I also believe they get what they deserve.
2020-12-08T01:38:50Z aeth: error/cerror/signal/warn... probably a few more. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_condit.htm
2020-12-08T01:39:37Z aeth: It would be amusing if you use cerror and give the user a chance to rebind *package*
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2020-12-08T02:06:17Z oni-on-ion: can clos names be hidden/private, so that make-instance would fail to find symbol?
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2020-12-08T02:24:16Z Xach: oni-on-ion: i think you could use an uninterned symbol as the name. that would make it trickier.
2020-12-08T02:25:41Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, uninterned symbols work fine. We use those when describing classes generated from external schemas in Netfarm.
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2020-12-08T02:26:35Z edgar-rft: I have encrypted all your symbols! Send MOST-POSSIBLE-BIGNUM bitcoins to get the decrypion key.
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2020-12-08T02:27:43Z no-defun-allowed: Where do I get that many?
2020-12-08T02:28:03Z no-defun-allowed: I could give you (1+ most-positive-bignum) though.
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2020-12-08T04:01:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-08T04:11:34Z banjomet: yesterday I remember everybody was talking about garbage collectors and I was wondering what you guys thought about azul's c4 continuously compacting collector for the jvm aimed at finance companies
2020-12-08T04:11:35Z banjomet: https://www.azul.com/files/c4_paper_acm1.pdf
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2020-12-08T04:14:52Z no-defun-allowed: C4 is a very good solution for garbage, provided you clean up the debris.
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2020-12-08T04:16:00Z no-defun-allowed: Interesting, that is a generational collector too.
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2020-12-08T06:10:31Z beach: oni-on-ion: You forgot to turn on abbrev mode.
2020-12-08T06:12:15Z Nilby: Does anyone know how to avoid the sbcl note: could not stack allocate ?
2020-12-08T06:12:46Z Nilby: For example with this: (defun foo (c1 c2 &key key test) (intersection c1 c2 :key key :test test))
2020-12-08T06:13:22Z Nilby: I'm guessing it's telling me it can't to tail recursion?
2020-12-08T06:13:33Z no-defun-allowed: Why would that use tail recursion?
2020-12-08T06:14:15Z no-defun-allowed: Also, that code doesn't produce a note, even with (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 1))) preceding the body, so I think something else is going on.
2020-12-08T06:14:33Z Nilby: I'm guessing it wouldn't, and maybe that's why it's warning?
2020-12-08T06:14:50Z beach: Nilby: (declare (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-notes)) or something like that.
2020-12-08T06:15:03Z beach: Nilby: You may want to look in the SBCL manual.
2020-12-08T06:15:05Z no-defun-allowed: Why would it produce a warning if there is no way it could benefit from tail recursion?
2020-12-08T06:15:35Z no-defun-allowed: It could tail-call INTERSECTION, sure, but I don't think that is the problem. Usually I get that note when I have declared something DYNAMIC-EXTENT.
2020-12-08T06:15:46Z Nilby: beach: Thank you, but I'm trying avoid havving these long muffling around everything.
2020-12-08T06:16:07Z beach: Then do it once with DECLAIM.
2020-12-08T06:16:09Z Nilby: It produces the note when you compile it, e.g. with compile-file or asdf
2020-12-08T06:16:21Z beach: ... and put it in your .sbclrc
2020-12-08T06:17:06Z no-defun-allowed: I can't tell how you could produce that note with that code, so I can't tell you how to avoid it.
2020-12-08T06:17:54Z Nilby: no-defun-allowed: If you stick that line in file and compile-file it.
2020-12-08T06:18:31Z no-defun-allowed: No notes here.
2020-12-08T06:18:44Z Nilby: Maybe my setup is crazy. :(  I'm always seeing some strange notes when compiling with default optimization settings.
2020-12-08T06:19:36Z oni-on-ion: beach +)
2020-12-08T06:19:46Z Nilby: no-defun-allowed: Thanks, maybe looking at the DYNAMIC-EXTENT optimizations is a clue.
2020-12-08T06:22:55Z Nilby: Weird. I don't get it when I run with --no-userinit, so I must have done something in the ~3k lines of .sbclrc.
2020-12-08T06:24:07Z Nilby: Thanks lispers for the sanity check.
2020-12-08T06:26:53Z no-defun-allowed: There wasn't a DYNAMIC-EXTENT declaration in the code you provided, by the way.
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2020-12-08T06:30:52Z Nilby: I get other inexplicable notes too, so I should figure out why.
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2020-12-08T06:45:29Z srandon111: guys i am newbie with lisp, i tinkered a little bit and read some SICP, i am able to do basic stuff, but won't consider myself more than a newbie... my question is... do the lisp languages today (2020) still have advantages over other programming languages? such as python, ruby or golang ? if yes, which are these advantages? i mean most of the programming languages nowadays have a repl and can do functional stuff.. what are the reall advantages of
2020-12-08T06:45:29Z srandon111: using a lisp ?
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2020-12-08T06:48:20Z beach: Yes, CLOS, macros.
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2020-12-08T06:48:35Z beach: Compiler available at run time.
2020-12-08T06:48:53Z beach: Each other language may have one or more of those features, but no other language has them all.
2020-12-08T06:49:24Z beach: One more: The Common Lisp language was carefully designed to allow for the compiler to generate fast code.
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2020-12-08T06:50:15Z beach: One more: With the exception of structs, the semantics are defined by a suite of interactions, whereas most languages must start from an empty global environment.
2020-12-08T06:50:32Z beach: I am off to buy food, but I can give you more when I get back.
2020-12-08T06:50:47Z beach: Or others can point you to the "Common Lisp features" web site.
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2020-12-08T06:53:51Z Nilby: srandon111: Common Lisp has strong advantages over every language, but may have some ecosystem disadvantages for some uses. One has to weigh the power, expressiveness, flexibility, and speed against the ecosystem concerns.
2020-12-08T06:55:51Z oni-on-ion: basically its just the binary size (50mb+)
2020-12-08T06:56:40Z no-defun-allowed: Python and Ruby are basically single-implementation languages, and that implementation is very slow.
2020-12-08T06:56:44Z hahawang: In my opinion, learning lisp makes you a better programmer, it's delightful. Many other popular programming language evolutes itself to lisp.
2020-12-08T06:56:49Z no-defun-allowed: Go does not have a REPL and cannot do functional stuff.
2020-12-08T06:57:47Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure if someone said it ironically or not, but you're supposed to be able to eyeball the complexity of a function with the braces, and that's not doable with higher-order functions.
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2020-12-08T06:58:51Z oni-on-ion: i just relate it to C --- linux/windows/mac already comes with all the stuff thats needed. so "unix" being a C VM. lisp just happens to come with its own (which ironically does depend on the whole "C VM")
2020-12-08T06:59:13Z hahawang: Lisp gives you a better prospective to think about what programs are and what programming means. It roots from a few of axioms and constructs program in an elegant way.
2020-12-08T06:59:38Z no-defun-allowed: It has also been said that Go is a good language if you believe nothing happened since the 1960s, because it is basically only an imperative language, with CSP, no exceptions or generics, and a shoddy incremental mark-sweep GC.
2020-12-08T06:59:40Z mfiano: no-defun-allowed: Go doesn't have 90% of the features even comparable lisp-exclusive languages have
2020-12-08T07:00:46Z no-defun-allowed: mfiano: That is also true.
2020-12-08T07:00:55Z hahawang: In lisp, there is no gap between program and data, everything is about lists and atoms, i think it's the most powerful feature that other programming language lacks.
2020-12-08T07:00:55Z mfiano: The philosophy is that by being simpler, it is easier to reason about and faster to produce code. But it turns out that is far from the case. You can't even overload arity, and because of a lack of generics, you are left copypasta left and right
2020-12-08T07:02:25Z no-defun-allowed: And I should note that I do not really use Common Lisp as a functional programming language.
2020-12-08T07:03:09Z no-defun-allowed: Most of my "work" is using the Common Lisp Object System and associated meta-object protocol, and/or in "controlled" side effects
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2020-12-08T07:08:54Z srandon111: beach, CLOS ? well i would like to use lisp as a functional language
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2020-12-08T07:11:11Z srandon111: can i use common lisp in a functional way?
2020-12-08T07:11:25Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, but you would be missing out.
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2020-12-08T07:15:04Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, missing out what?
2020-12-08T07:16:29Z no-defun-allowed: Lisp is a fine imperative language, should you need side effects. I would say you would also miss out on object-oriented concepts, but that is because most people who want to use a "functional language" are explicitly trying to avoid it, and not because functional and object paradigms are separate.
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2020-12-08T07:17:18Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, ok but my thing is... if want to write in a functional style, does lisp allows that or it has its quirks ?
2020-12-08T07:17:30Z no-defun-allowed: It does allow for that, yes.
2020-12-08T07:17:53Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, and is it not a recommended style? i mean lisp programmers generally prefeer OOP instead of functional?
2020-12-08T07:18:07Z srandon111: differing for example from scheme programmers
2020-12-08T07:18:34Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think many people would admit they have a preference, saying they "pick whichever is more suitable". Of course, that's subjective too.
2020-12-08T07:19:08Z srandon111: okok thanks no-defun-allowed
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2020-12-08T07:19:47Z no-defun-allowed: Most of my code is imperative, and uses an object-oriented style though. (And you've fallen for something, contrasting "OOP instead of functional")
2020-12-08T07:19:52Z Nilby: You can use Lisp as a functional language, but it is imperative that you don't constrain or object to functional metaprogramming dataflow induction.
2020-12-08T07:21:14Z no-defun-allowed: I recall Dylan and Scala were/are explicitly marketed as "object-functional" languages.
2020-12-08T07:22:29Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, so you mean that it is also not a problem to combine the two approaches ? ok but i prefer a more functionalish approach to OOP
2020-12-08T07:22:33Z srandon111: and using structs
2020-12-08T07:22:34Z no-defun-allowed: And Gabriel, White and Bobrow have a good outline of how that could happen: https://www.dreamsongs.com/Files/clos-cacm.pdf
2020-12-08T07:22:56Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: You can use generic functions with any class (including structure-classes).
2020-12-08T07:23:27Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, yes that's fine!
2020-12-08T07:23:43Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, are you aware of any scheme books similar to "practical common lisp" ?
2020-12-08T07:23:49Z no-defun-allowed: If you use those without inheritance, then you get something like Haskell typeclasses, where you have "ad-hoc polymorphism".
2020-12-08T07:23:56Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: I am not, I haven't done much Scheme programming before.
2020-12-08T07:24:32Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, i don't know what typeclasses are
2020-12-08T07:24:37Z srandon111: where can i learn these things ?
2020-12-08T07:25:13Z no-defun-allowed: Well, there aren't actual typeclasses in Common Lisp, but the "dispatch" that happens is similar.
2020-12-08T07:25:37Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, i don't knkow what typeclasses are
2020-12-08T07:26:02Z no-defun-allowed: To summarise, you have a data structure (eg Maybe), you have the typeclass (eg Monad), and there are several generic functions that you implement with that data structure (I think those are...fmap, return at least?)
2020-12-08T07:27:08Z no-defun-allowed: So you have a functional data structure which is separate from the methods (note this is also true for "normal" CLOS with standard-classes), and you have a dispatch system when you call the generic function.
2020-12-08T07:30:54Z no-defun-allowed: And, of course, you can use immutable objects, and because generic functions are functions, you can use them with higher order functions.
2020-12-08T07:30:55Z Nilby: Imagine looking at one of these https://imgur.com/a/zcuLMKu, and thinking up functional programming in Lisp.
2020-12-08T07:31:18Z no-defun-allowed: Apart from type weenieng, I think those are most of the characteristics of functional programming.
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2020-12-08T07:37:55Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, where can i learn these concepts? should i learn haskell first? or is there any resource to learn functional programming with common lisp ?
2020-12-08T07:38:28Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: Learning Haskell isn't necessary, but my point is that you would eventually find something like generic functions and structures in another functional programming language.
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2020-12-08T07:54:53Z Nilby: In case anyone was wondering, I was getting a bunch of unexpected notes in sbcl because I changed the default optimize space from 1 to 0.
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2020-12-08T07:54:54Z phoe: Nilby: what kind of notes?
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2020-12-08T07:55:12Z Nilby: "could not stack allocate"
2020-12-08T07:55:26Z phoe: oh - you are trying to DX some objects?
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2020-12-08T07:56:07Z Nilby: What's DX?
2020-12-08T07:56:33Z Nilby: I know XD but...
2020-12-08T07:57:43Z Nilby: A one line example was: (defun foo (c1 c2 &key key test) (intersection c1 c2 :key key :test test))
2020-12-08T07:58:30Z phoe: DX, dynamic-extent
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2020-12-08T07:59:29Z Nilby: Ah no, but that's what no-defun-allowed gueesed too.
2020-12-08T08:00:23Z Nilby: I almost always trust the compiler to get that.
2020-12-08T08:01:28Z Nilby: Now I learned at least 2 things today :)
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2020-12-08T08:05:20Z Nilby: I still get the lovely "Type assertion too complex to check" notes.
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2020-12-08T08:10:56Z beach: srandon111: That's not what you asked though.
2020-12-08T08:12:56Z beach: srandon111: CLOS is different from object-oriented programming, both as defined by Alan Kay and as defined by what we usually think about as object-oriented languages, like Java, C#, etc.
2020-12-08T08:16:44Z beach: srandon111: So to summarize, yes, Common Lisp has plenty of advantages compared to other languages, and I forgot to mention homoiconicity (but it was said in a different way), but if what you want is a purely functional language, Common Lisp is not it.
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2020-12-08T08:17:48Z beach: srandon111: Then, I don't quite understand why you would want to renounce something like CLOS, since you don't seem to know what it does.
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2020-12-08T08:36:45Z srandon111: beach, i was thinking it was something for OOP
2020-12-08T08:37:02Z srandon111: beach, i like clojure and scheme ideas, but the problem with clojure is slow startup which i care for my apps
2020-12-08T08:37:24Z srandon111: and the problem with schemes is that there is not much resources and third party libraries
2020-12-08T08:37:42Z srandon111: except for racket which i don't like for it being too much bound to drracket
2020-12-08T08:38:02Z beach: srandon111: There is no widespread agreement of "object-oriented programming", so call it what you want, but if you expect something like what Java does, then that's not it.
2020-12-08T08:38:25Z beach: srandon111: CLOS is way more versatile.  It does not confuse object representation and encapsulation.
2020-12-08T08:38:26Z moon-child: srandon111: graalvm has fast startup times, and I think works for clojure
2020-12-08T08:38:42Z beach: srandon111: And it has things like method combinations, multiple dispatch, etc.
2020-12-08T08:41:21Z srandon111: moon-child, "it works" ,ahhahah funny... try to compile any program with graalvm, only a very small fraction would work
2020-12-08T08:48:37Z phantomics: Hey, a question: is there a way to "copy" a symbol macro from one package to another at runtime without doing an (eval `(define-symbol-macro ,symbol ,other-symbol))?
2020-12-08T08:55:46Z phoe: hm
2020-12-08T08:55:53Z phoe: there is no symbol-macro-function
2020-12-08T08:56:10Z beach: Yeah, I was looking for it too.
2020-12-08T08:56:21Z beach: I guess you need first-class global environments in the form of Clostrum.
2020-12-08T08:56:36Z phoe: or a trivial-symbol-macro-function
2020-12-08T08:56:57Z beach: Well, it's not a function, really.
2020-12-08T08:57:05Z beach: More like an "expansion".
2020-12-08T08:57:31Z phoe: well we have macro-function, maybe we could also have symbol-macro-function
2020-12-08T08:57:42Z phoe: but yes, that would be a zero-arg thunk
2020-12-08T08:58:16Z phoe: because symbol macros take no arguments for their expansion.
2020-12-08T09:03:16Z Krystof: (define-symbol-macro symbol nil) (setf *macroexpand-hook* (lambda (expansion form env) (if (eql form symbol) (macroexpand other-symbol env) (funcall expander form env))))
2020-12-08T09:03:50Z beach: Hey Krystof.
2020-12-08T09:03:54Z Krystof: untested, not actually recommended, why would you do this anyway, etc.
2020-12-08T09:03:56Z Krystof: morning
2020-12-08T09:06:57Z beach: So you still have some time for Lisp? :)
2020-12-08T09:07:00Z Krystof: barely
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2020-12-08T09:07:59Z Krystof: well.  I might have had more time for Lisp were it not that I'm do programming as the job now, so my enthusiasm is lower for out-of-hours programming (or indeed staring at screens) of any sort
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2020-12-08T09:08:04Z Krystof: and, also, 2020
2020-12-08T09:08:29Z beach: Understandable.
2020-12-08T09:08:42Z phoe: Krystof: oh no
2020-12-08T09:09:27Z phantomics: Hmm, thanks phoe
2020-12-08T09:09:40Z phoe: I did not really help much
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2020-12-08T09:10:57Z phantomics: Thanks to Krystof too, I'll try that code
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2020-12-08T09:11:21Z Krystof: phantomics: but seriously, you probably shouldn't want to do what you want to do
2020-12-08T09:11:52Z phantomics: Ok, there's probably another way
2020-12-08T09:13:03Z phantomics: I'm basically converting one symbol to another which is supposed to be interned in a particular package, but I can just convert it to the macro symbol in the original package
2020-12-08T09:13:08Z Krystof: symbol macros are pretty fundamentally: (a) a compile-time thing, and (b) a helper for implementing lexical things like with-slots / with-accessors or, at a pinch, doing other weird things like communicating things about the current environment
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2020-12-08T09:13:40Z Krystof: can't you actually make it be the same symbol?  (intern it into its new package?)
2020-12-08T09:14:17Z Krystof: I mean "import" not "intern"
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2020-12-08T09:15:19Z Krystof: (import other-symbol "PACKAGE-OTHER-SYMBOL-SHOULD-BE-IN")
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2020-12-08T11:50:37Z spxy[m]: hello
2020-12-08T11:50:59Z phoe: heyyyy
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2020-12-08T12:51:44Z beach: spxy[m]: You are relatively new here, right?
2020-12-08T12:53:07Z phoe: beach: AFAIK yes, he is
2020-12-08T12:53:31Z beach: phoe: How do you know spxy[m] is male?
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2020-12-08T12:53:40Z phoe: damn
2020-12-08T12:53:44Z phoe: beach: AFAIK yes, they are
2020-12-08T12:53:48Z beach: Heh.
2020-12-08T12:53:49Z phoe not feeling well today - sorries.
2020-12-08T12:54:00Z beach: Oh, sorry to hear that!  What's wrong?
2020-12-08T12:54:18Z phoe moves to query.
2020-12-08T12:55:19Z srandon111: phoe, hey how are you ?
2020-12-08T12:55:41Z phoe: srandon111: alive, will be well in a few days. thanks.
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2020-12-08T13:02:42Z Nilby: .oO (incf (player-hp (player 'phoe)))
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2020-12-08T13:39:42Z contrapunctus: o/
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2020-12-08T13:47:57Z phoe: heyyy
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2020-12-08T13:49:21Z flip214: shouldn't that be *phoe*? or at least |#lisp|::phoe?
2020-12-08T13:49:34Z phoe: flip214: but we are in #lisp
2020-12-08T13:49:39Z thomasb06: Hello. Does anyone have an idea how to bind a key to execute a bash command in Stumpwm (in my case 'nnn')? The config `(define-key *top-map* (stumpwm:kbd "s-F7") "exec xterm n")` doesn't work
2020-12-08T13:49:49Z phoe: that's why 'phoe === '|#lisp|::phoe
2020-12-08T13:50:18Z flip214: phoe: well, do you want to be readable everywhere?
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2020-12-08T13:52:34Z phoe: thomasb06: there's #stumpwm that might be more specific to this question
2020-12-08T13:52:52Z phoe: oh! you've asked there
2020-12-08T13:52:53Z thomasb06: phoe went there first...
2020-12-08T13:53:03Z thomasb06: yep, quiet place
2020-12-08T13:53:16Z Bike: it does have activity, though you might have to wait a couple hours
2020-12-08T13:53:43Z thomasb06: Bike jet lag issue maybe
2020-12-08T13:54:32Z phoe: if it's completely silent and/or the issue is impatient, you might want to try https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm/issues
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2020-12-08T13:57:44Z thomasb06: Wow, I'm not going to publish something on github for that... My only worry is that I can't reconnect and see if someone answered
2020-12-08T13:58:08Z phoe: thomasb06: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23stumpwm
2020-12-08T13:58:40Z phoe: seems like #stumpwm is logged so you can check answers later
2020-12-08T13:59:13Z thomasb06: phoe I just need to go to that link to see there is an answer later? Nice, thanks for the trick
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2020-12-08T14:00:28Z phoe: thomasb06: yes
2020-12-08T14:00:36Z phoe: might need to go back in history a bit, but this contains the channel logs
2020-12-08T14:02:41Z flip214: "let's do the time warp again" ... but don't kill Caesar, that always messes up the history books until the fallout settles
2020-12-08T14:03:21Z thomasb06: phoe many thanks
2020-12-08T14:03:52Z phoe: et tu, flip214, contra me
2020-12-08T14:05:04Z _death: thomasb06: I'm guessing you want "S-F7"... s seems to mean super, while S means shift
2020-12-08T14:06:15Z thomasb06: _death it's lower 's', for super indeed
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2020-12-08T14:07:05Z _death: thomasb06: generally you can use `C-t h k` (I think C-t is the default stumpwm prefix?.. I've been using C-z for a long time now) to see how to designate a keybinding
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2020-12-08T14:12:11Z thomasb06: _death let me have a look
2020-12-08T14:12:22Z aeth: phoe: probably more like '|irc.freenode.#lisp|::phoe
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2020-12-08T14:12:41Z aeth: phoe: or a::phoe (where a is for alias) for short with the magic of package local nicknames
2020-12-08T14:13:11Z thomasb06: _death it works great, thanks
2020-12-08T14:15:11Z phoe: aeth: I like this last suggestion
2020-12-08T14:18:42Z thomasb06: _death C-z is my command key in screen...
2020-12-08T14:21:43Z _death: C-t in emacs is just too useful ;)
2020-12-08T14:22:41Z thomasb06: for now I didn't have the issue, but it's less than a week I'm under Stump...
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2020-12-08T15:05:40Z phantomics: Hey everyone, another question: I'm having trouble due to compiling code containing symbols from packages that don't exist yet but will at runtime.
2020-12-08T15:06:09Z phantomics: I have functions that, when they run, will create a Lisp package and populate it with some variables, the code I'm compiling calls these variables. Is there a way to make this work?
2020-12-08T15:06:43Z phantomics: In all cases, the compiled code will not run before the package is created, but the compiler chokes on the references to variables from a nonexistent package regardless
2020-12-08T15:07:55Z Bike: you cannot read, let alone compile, code with symbols from nonexistent packages.
2020-12-08T15:08:02Z Bike: you can defer the symbol lookups to runtime though.
2020-12-08T15:08:15Z phantomics: Ok
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2020-12-08T15:08:30Z Bike: like, instead of (apply 'nonexistent:foo ...), (apply (find-symbol "FOO" "NONEXISTENT") ...)
2020-12-08T15:08:47Z phantomics: Makes sense, thanks
2020-12-08T15:09:09Z Nilby: phantomics: maybe uiop:symbol-call
2020-12-08T15:09:15Z phantomics: That would have to be (apply (symbol-function (find-symbol "FOO" "NONEXISTENT")) ...) right?
2020-12-08T15:10:05Z phoe: phantomics: doesn't need to be
2020-12-08T15:10:11Z phoe: symbols are funcallable
2020-12-08T15:10:23Z phoe: (funcall (find-symbol "LIST" "CL") 1 2 3)
2020-12-08T15:10:53Z phoe: ;=> (1 2 3)
2020-12-08T15:11:11Z phantomics: Interesting, not sure I ever tried that
2020-12-08T15:11:38Z phoe: this is useful e.g. when the functions don't exist yet
2020-12-08T15:11:50Z phoe: you can't get a hold of #'foo for funcalling it later, but you do can get a hold of 'foo
2020-12-08T15:11:58Z phantomics: Cool
2020-12-08T15:13:02Z phoe: I exercised this knowledge recently because the code I submitted to quicklisp did not compile
2020-12-08T15:13:24Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/damn-fast-priority-queue/commit/e10ec5b7bfd
2020-12-08T15:13:38Z phoe: try taking a look at this commit, at this whole file, and tell me why!
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2020-12-08T15:50:18Z flip214: phoe: how fast is this queue compared to SBCL's mailboxes (which ISTR are lockless)?
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2020-12-08T15:51:16Z phoe: flip214: I did not compare against SBCL mailboxes - only Quicklisp libraries. Might be worth to check them mayhaps, the benchmark code is easily adaptable
2020-12-08T15:51:31Z phoe: also my queue is not thread-safe by any means.
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2020-12-08T16:05:20Z Kabriel: beach srandon111 another advantage, CL is backed by a standard specification
2020-12-08T16:05:37Z beach: Yes, I keep forgetting to point that out.
2020-12-08T16:05:46Z beach: It's a major argument in my talks to industry.
2020-12-08T16:06:50Z aeth: The advantage is that people can and do switch from implementations, e.g. everyone who used CLISP 10 years ago is probably using SBCL or CCL now.
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2020-12-08T16:07:26Z phoe: but the source code is mostly the same, plus minus extensions beyond the standard that got unified into portalibs
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2020-12-08T16:13:12Z jmercouris: https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/article/dbscan.org
2020-12-08T16:13:22Z jmercouris: "Computationally augmented browsing"
2020-12-08T16:15:31Z beach: I should check out Nyxt at some point.
2020-12-08T16:16:09Z jmercouris: I would be most interested in your opinions :-D
2020-12-08T16:16:37Z beach: When I do, I will almost certainly give you feedback.
2020-12-08T16:17:58Z pfdietz: phoe: it's also useful for serialization.  'foo can be written and read back in, or put into a fasl file as a constant.  #'foo cannot (although load-time-value can be used to recreate it.)
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2020-12-08T16:19:19Z _death: jmercouris: cool.. consider using a tree for the range queries.. the naive approach is very slow
2020-12-08T16:19:22Z spal: I can relate to CLISP to SBCL transistion that aeth mentioned. I began learning Common Lisp using CLISP in 2007 on a rickety laptop running Debian 4.0 (Etch) in an airport when I had a long layover. Now 13 years later, I use SBCL on macOS.
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2020-12-08T16:21:26Z jmercouris: _death: a tree where the neighbor nodes are childreN?
2020-12-08T16:22:08Z _death: jmercouris: a spatial tree that stores the points
2020-12-08T16:22:45Z jmercouris: _death: this is what we are doing currently: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt/blob/92251879868203b8427b664863f8eb843982430a/libraries/analysis/dbscan.lisp#L79
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2020-12-08T16:23:03Z jmercouris: each node has a hash table, each key in that hash table is an edge, each value a weight (distance)
2020-12-08T16:23:13Z jmercouris: it is a fully connected graph in this way
2020-12-08T16:23:19Z jmercouris: I don't know if what you are suggesting is more performant or not
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2020-12-08T16:28:52Z _death: in generate-document-distance-vectors you compare every document with every other document (twice)
2020-12-08T16:29:04Z jmercouris: _death: this is true
2020-12-08T16:29:28Z jmercouris: you know what, actually there is an easy way around this, store the reciprocal value immediately
2020-12-08T16:29:39Z _death: this is not necessary.. you can use properties of the metric, like commutativity or triangle inequality
2020-12-08T16:29:43Z jmercouris: so if we calculate (distance a b) we can store (distance b a) as well, and just check if it has been calculated
2020-12-08T16:29:56Z jmercouris: comutativity is the best I think
2020-12-08T16:30:01Z jmercouris: commutativity*
2020-12-08T16:30:10Z jmercouris: I will improve that, thank you
2020-12-08T16:30:12Z _death: you also use appendf for simulating a queue
2020-12-08T16:30:22Z jmercouris: what's wrong with that?
2020-12-08T16:30:49Z _death: each insertion is O(N)
2020-12-08T16:30:54Z jmercouris: oh boy
2020-12-08T16:31:08Z jmercouris: each call to appendf? is O(N)?
2020-12-08T16:31:11Z jmercouris: really?
2020-12-08T16:31:20Z jmercouris: I would have assumed it just tags onto the end of the cons list
2020-12-08T16:31:21Z beach: How could it be otherwise?
2020-12-08T16:31:34Z Bike: append is not destructive. it cons up copies of all lists but the final one.
2020-12-08T16:31:37Z jmercouris: I figured it may have a reference to the head and tail of each list
2020-12-08T16:31:43Z _death: it needs to get to the end of the list
2020-12-08T16:31:49Z jmercouris: I did not know that...
2020-12-08T16:31:52Z jmercouris: hm, expensive indeed
2020-12-08T16:31:54Z beach: jmercouris: Where would it store that reference?
2020-12-08T16:32:01Z jmercouris: implementation detail
2020-12-08T16:32:03Z jmercouris: not my proble :-D
2020-12-08T16:32:14Z jmercouris: it seems like an obvious optimization...
2020-12-08T16:32:22Z jmercouris: well, less assuming on my part would be good
2020-12-08T16:32:37Z beach: So each CONS cell would have an additional pointer?
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2020-12-08T16:32:55Z beach: And what if the same CONS cell were used in several APPEND operations?
2020-12-08T16:32:56Z jmercouris: a good point...
2020-12-08T16:33:11Z jmercouris: I was thinking more along the lines of I specify (list) the implementation should consider I want to do many operations against it
2020-12-08T16:33:20Z jmercouris: maintain a head, tail, etc
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2020-12-08T16:33:45Z jmercouris: I see now that in the general case this would be extremely difficult
2020-12-08T16:34:09Z jmercouris: so should I use a queue library?
2020-12-08T16:34:35Z _death: there used to be a TCONC operator, if you want something lightweight..
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2020-12-08T16:35:47Z jmercouris: I could also just maintain a list of lists
2020-12-08T16:36:02Z jmercouris: then traverse the list of lists to remove all elements
2020-12-08T16:36:26Z jmercouris: then appending would be a lot cheaper in general unless the lists are all of length 1
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2020-12-08T16:36:54Z _death: why not just use a queue data type?
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2020-12-08T16:40:33Z jmercouris: there is a queue in CL?
2020-12-08T16:42:32Z _death: it's simple enough to implement one.. there are also a bunch of libraries
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2020-12-08T16:43:22Z jmercouris: of course it is, but I don't know if I want to add another dependency
2020-12-08T16:43:33Z jmercouris: I may write one if it isn't in any of our dependencies already
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2020-12-08T16:49:51Z sjl: PAIP has a super simple queue that's like a page of code: https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp/blob/master/docs/chapter10.md#the-right-data-structure-queues
2020-12-08T16:50:29Z sjl: (which mentions TCONC that _death was referring to)
2020-12-08T16:50:30Z _death: hah, I didn't remember it also had a TCONC definition ;)
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2020-12-08T16:51:14Z jmercouris: looks simple enough
2020-12-08T16:51:45Z jmercouris: thank you Steve
2020-12-08T16:52:06Z sjl: Though probably not thread safe.  If you want synchronized queues I think JPL queues has one, or the queue from lparappel
2020-12-08T16:52:09Z sjl: *lparallel
2020-12-08T16:55:12Z jmercouris: not needed to be thread safe
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2020-12-08T16:59:08Z _death: before you do anything, it may be a good idea to measure the timings.. say for 1000 items
2020-12-08T16:59:30Z _death: this should help you understand the issues
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2020-12-08T17:12:18Z contrapunctus: If there's a program written in CL which is extensible in the Emacs style (arbitrary external code), what can I do to prevent extensions from doing certain things like accessing the filesystem outside of the storage provided by the application or running shell commands, without explicitly prompting the user? (There's the SICL project, but I'm not sure it's ready for use at the moment...and I'd prefer a
2020-12-08T17:12:18Z contrapunctus: n implementation-independent solution.)
2020-12-08T17:12:41Z jmercouris: contrapunctus: good luck :-)
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2020-12-08T17:12:51Z contrapunctus: lol
2020-12-08T17:12:53Z jmercouris: _death: yes, I haven't done any optimization yet
2020-12-08T17:13:00Z beach: contrapunctus: first-class global environments.
2020-12-08T17:13:10Z jmercouris: the real answer is OS level security
2020-12-08T17:13:19Z beach: Now in the form of an external library: Clostrum.
2020-12-08T17:13:19Z jmercouris: jails, containers, etc
2020-12-08T17:13:45Z phoe: contrapunctus: CL is generally written in a way that trusts the programmer and trusts code that is executed
2020-12-08T17:13:49Z jmercouris: there real answer is that when the user can execute arbitrary code, they can override your overrides, no matter what
2020-12-08T17:13:55Z jmercouris: s/there/the
2020-12-08T17:14:17Z jmercouris: so, run only trusted code
2020-12-08T17:14:28Z jmercouris: and only in a secure environment
2020-12-08T17:14:31Z phoe: so either you wait for beach's suggestion to become widespread across implementations and limit the symbols (and therefore API) that they can access
2020-12-08T17:14:34Z beach: jmercouris: But with first-class global environments, the user can't execute arbitrary code.
2020-12-08T17:14:42Z phoe: or you jail the whole Lisp image.
2020-12-08T17:14:55Z beach: phoe: No need to wait.  I convert the code to an AST then run the AST evaluator.
2020-12-08T17:14:59Z jmercouris: beach: I wouldn't know about that
2020-12-08T17:15:06Z jmercouris: not that I am doubting you
2020-12-08T17:15:10Z jmercouris: I am saying, I am not knowledgable about that
2020-12-08T17:15:16Z beach: phoe: It is around 4 times as slow as the native code, which is not bad.
2020-12-08T17:15:32Z contrapunctus: beach: oh :'(
2020-12-08T17:15:47Z beach: contrapunctus: What?
2020-12-08T17:15:56Z phoe: beach: oh!
2020-12-08T17:15:56Z contrapunctus: "4 times as slow"
2020-12-08T17:15:58Z phoe: nice
2020-12-08T17:16:06Z beach: contrapunctus: It will drop into native code for all the functions you allow it to execute.
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2020-12-08T17:16:18Z contrapunctus: Oh, interesting ._.
2020-12-08T17:16:34Z _death: contrapunctus: you can check out a project called cl-eval-bot.. it has a sandbox feature that supports a restricted subset of CL
2020-12-08T17:16:37Z jmercouris: I would like to learn more about this, could be very useful for Nyxt
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2020-12-08T17:16:53Z jmercouris: s/could/will
2020-12-08T17:16:55Z contrapunctus: beach: is this the repo? No license? 🤔 https://github.com/s-expressionists/Clostrum
2020-12-08T17:16:59Z _death: contrapunctus: that may or may not be enough
2020-12-08T17:17:28Z phoe: oh right, this might need to get a license
2020-12-08T17:17:50Z jmercouris: which means both daniel and beach will need to agree on a license
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2020-12-08T17:18:18Z beach: contrapunctus: Yes, that's it.
2020-12-08T17:18:19Z contrapunctus: Unlicense \o/ 😏
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2020-12-08T17:18:41Z beach: BST 2 clause.
2020-12-08T17:18:42Z jmercouris: It will probably be some MIT / BSD variant
2020-12-08T17:18:45Z beach: Just like SICL.
2020-12-08T17:18:54Z beach: er, BSD
2020-12-08T17:18:56Z beach: Sorry.
2020-12-08T17:19:08Z Cesdo: Hi all
2020-12-08T17:19:13Z phoe: hey Cesdo
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2020-12-08T17:19:13Z contrapunctus: Hey Cesdo
2020-12-08T17:19:16Z jmercouris: there is your answer, it is written here
2020-12-08T17:19:18Z jmercouris: BSD License
2020-12-08T17:19:20Z beach: jmercouris: We don't need to agree.  I paid jackdaniel to develop it, so I decide.
2020-12-08T17:19:21Z jmercouris: you can use it now
2020-12-08T17:19:25Z jmercouris: oh I see :-D
2020-12-08T17:19:32Z jmercouris: well, well well then!
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2020-12-08T17:20:16Z contrapunctus: Who says you can't get paid writing Lisp?
2020-12-08T17:20:18Z beach: Cesdo: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-12-08T17:20:20Z contrapunctus: (SCNR)
2020-12-08T17:20:37Z beach: That's what jackdaniel does for a living, yes.
2020-12-08T17:20:37Z jmercouris: contrapunctus: very few people get paid writing Lisp, you must want it very much to achieve it
2020-12-08T17:20:38Z Cesdo: beach: yes
2020-12-08T17:20:49Z beach: Cesdo: Great!  Welcome!  What brings you to #lisp?
2020-12-08T17:20:58Z phoe: hey hi hello then, new soul
2020-12-08T17:21:09Z jmercouris: he would probably like to convert a Perl program into Lisp to see if Lisp is a better language, _death
2020-12-08T17:21:19Z jackdaniel: I confirm (that beach decides about the license - but also the implementation is implicit from the specification he wrote)
2020-12-08T17:21:31Z phoe: there's #lisp for Common Lisp discussion, ##lisp for discussing Lisps in general, #clschool for learning Common Lisp, and #lispcafe for general chillout offtopic chat stuff
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2020-12-08T17:22:01Z phoe: and lots of smaller channels for Lisp implementations, projects, etc..
2020-12-08T17:22:50Z contrapunctus: And an XMPP room too 😏 https://conversations.im/j/lisp@conference.a3.pm
2020-12-08T17:23:02Z phoe: and a discord server as well
2020-12-08T17:23:11Z Cesdo: Guys, please watch my code
2020-12-08T17:23:12Z Cesdo: https://pastebin.com/W7E3LgFi
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2020-12-08T17:23:32Z jackdaniel: the indentation is all wrong, and this code is scheme
2020-12-08T17:23:40Z jackdaniel: there is a channel #scheme for scheme
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2020-12-08T17:24:06Z Cesdo: jackdaniel: ok
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2020-12-08T17:24:38Z beach: Cesdo: Or you can do your code in Common Lisp.
2020-12-08T17:24:52Z beach: Cesdo: Then we can recommend tools to make it look idiomatic.
2020-12-08T17:25:01Z Cesdo: :-D
2020-12-08T17:25:25Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2186#2186
2020-12-08T17:25:30Z phoe: converting it to CL ain't too hard
2020-12-08T17:25:36Z phoe: it's just frobbing DEFINE into a DEFUN
2020-12-08T17:25:58Z beach: You need to get rid of the CamelCase too.
2020-12-08T17:26:04Z contrapunctus: Cesdo: also, Lisp convention is to use kebab-case without abbreviations
2020-12-08T17:26:41Z Cesdo: contrapunctus: understood
2020-12-08T17:27:37Z pfdietz: For queues in Lisp:  it's easy enough to implement a queue functionally in O(1) amortized time per operation, using two stacks.
2020-12-08T17:28:43Z pfdietz: With a little more work you can get that down to O(1) time (not amortized) per operation.
2020-12-08T17:28:49Z Cesdo: thanks to all
2020-12-08T17:29:14Z phoe: pfdietz: a priority queue you mean, right?
2020-12-08T17:29:23Z phoe: not just a FIFO one
2020-12-08T17:29:25Z pfdietz: Nah, just a regular queue.
2020-12-08T17:29:29Z phoe: oh, whew
2020-12-08T17:29:34Z beach: It's a standard trick.
2020-12-08T17:29:43Z pfdietz: Priority queue can sort, so not O(1) time per operation.
2020-12-08T17:29:53Z phoe: for a moment I thought that I screwed up while programming DFPQ and I could go to O(1) with a prioqueue
2020-12-08T17:30:09Z jmercouris: if you believe hard enough, anything is possible
2020-12-08T17:30:20Z jackdaniel: that is not true
2020-12-08T17:30:28Z jmercouris: lol, of course it isn't
2020-12-08T17:30:33Z jackdaniel: then why did you say that?
2020-12-08T17:30:34Z jmercouris: also, the moon is made of cheese
2020-12-08T17:30:38Z jmercouris: because it was a joke
2020-12-08T17:30:40Z _death: actually for jmercouris's code a queue isn't needed after all.. he can just transpose the two arguments to appendf and be done with it.. also that nonstandard loop syntax again...
2020-12-08T17:30:45Z phoe: jmercouris: gimme a O(1) sorting algorithm and a slice of moon cheddar then
2020-12-08T17:30:55Z pfdietz: Truly I tell you: we have a friend in cheeses.
2020-12-08T17:31:33Z jmercouris: a friend in need is a cheese indeed
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2020-12-08T17:35:13Z _death: (well, not just transpose them.. he'll need to use append rather than appendf, or define prependf)
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2020-12-08T18:20:14Z dim: the O(1) sorting algorithm is sometimes referred to as “God's algo” as in “if I were God, what would I do?” and then if you were God then of course the data would be already sorted to your preference... what a strange question... and then you try to imagine the next best thing
2020-12-08T18:23:40Z spal: Am I misremembering it or did SLIME really use to have a startup animation while starting with M-x slime? I don't see the animated SLIME startup anymore.
2020-12-08T18:25:36Z _death: it got removed
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2020-12-08T18:26:19Z _death: well, moved into a contrib.. slime-banner
2020-12-08T18:26:20Z spal: :(
2020-12-08T18:26:57Z easye still has slime-banner in slime-setup
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2020-12-08T18:48:32Z dim: M-x butterfly anyone?
2020-12-08T18:49:04Z lotuseater: yes I used it some time ago :D just for the fun of it
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2020-12-08T20:30:51Z lotuseater: okay now I get why NASA/JPL refuses using lisp anymore ^^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_10:_Rules_for_Developing_Safety-Critical_Code
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2020-12-08T22:11:17Z nij: Help! I think I'm stuck with the type system of 'defstruct...
2020-12-08T22:11:24Z nij: https://bpa.st/23FQ   <-- here's the issue.
2020-12-08T22:11:45Z nij: I defined a structure 'date, which requires each slot to contain a number.
2020-12-08T22:12:02Z nij: I then tried to parse string into it.. but it does not work.
2020-12-08T22:12:21Z Bike: when you do a let binding like that you only take the primary value of the form
2020-12-08T22:12:29Z Bike: that is, all the values of decode-universal-time past the primary value are discarded here
2020-12-08T22:12:37Z Bike: you probably want to use multiple-value-bind instead
2020-12-08T22:13:10Z Bike: (nth-value n a-variable) is always nil if n is greater than zero (and a-variable is not a symbol macro)
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2020-12-08T22:16:29Z Bike: if you take this code but do like (print (nth-value 5 parsed-date)) you'll see that it's nil.
2020-12-08T22:16:43Z nij: Hmm.. I'm trying to search for what the primary values are
2020-12-08T22:16:46Z nij: but in vain.
2020-12-08T22:17:03Z nij: So I should use 'multiple-value-bind instead of 'let?
2020-12-08T22:17:10Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm#primary_value
2020-12-08T22:18:15Z nij: :(
2020-12-08T22:18:25Z Bike: what?
2020-12-08T22:18:52Z nij fails to understand why the sequence isn't parsed successfully into the variable 'parsed-date
2020-12-08T22:19:40Z Bike: okay, well, basiclaly decode-universal-time isn't returning a sequence. it's returning multiple values, which is a different thing.
2020-12-08T22:20:09Z Bike: it's a bit more efficient in that it doesn't actually need to allocate any storage, like it would for a sequence.
2020-12-08T22:20:38Z nij: I see. A multiple-valued function.
2020-12-08T22:20:42Z Bike: The language semantics mean that in most contexts, values besides the primary return value are discarded. You need to use something like nth-value or multiple-value-bind to get at them.
2020-12-08T22:20:55Z Bike: If you just bind the results of the form to a variable, like here, the variable will just be the primary value.
2020-12-08T22:21:09Z nij: OH!
2020-12-08T22:21:11Z nij: I see :D
2020-12-08T22:21:15Z nij: Thank yah!
2020-12-08T22:21:31Z Bike: You can e.g. use (multiple-value-list (decode-universal-time ...)) to get an actual list (i.e. sequence) of the values, and work with that, but multiple-value-bind is more idiomatic and efficient.
2020-12-08T22:21:35Z Bike: yeah, no problem.
2020-12-08T22:23:23Z Xach: oh man
2020-12-08T22:23:33Z Xach: i forgot that jcb made mkcl!
2020-12-08T22:23:43Z Xach: that makes his weird pro question even weirder!
2020-12-08T22:24:52Z nij: It works :D I'm happy Bike
2020-12-08T22:24:57Z Bike: that's good.
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2020-12-08T22:36:32Z phoe: Xach: which pro question
2020-12-08T22:37:45Z Xach: "change-class is hard to implement and nobody uses it, difficult things should be justified before adding them"
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2020-12-08T22:38:10Z phoe: >nobody uses it
2020-12-08T22:38:19Z phoe: "Robert Strandh would like to know your location"
2020-12-08T22:38:34Z phoe: no, I mean, seriously - I have use cases for it
2020-12-08T22:38:50Z phoe: so should update-instance-for-redefined-class, who the hell even knows about this function
2020-12-08T22:39:02Z phoe: who even designs functions that have names as long as this
2020-12-08T22:39:14Z Xach: i uses it often
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2020-12-08T22:43:03Z Gnuxie[m]: change-class 💜💕
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2020-12-08T22:51:51Z yottabyte: question about yason, I want to encode json like {"something": {"a": 5, "b": [1, 2, 3]}} but I'm having some trouble with the inner object nesting. I tried using alexandria:plist-hash-table with no luck
2020-12-08T22:53:11Z phoe: I guess this depends on how yason encodes lists vs objects
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2020-12-08T22:55:26Z phoe: (yason:encode (alexandria:plist-hash-table (list "foo" 42 "bar" (alexandria:plist-hash-table (list "aaa" '(1 2 3))))))
2020-12-08T22:55:30Z phoe: this seems to work for me
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2020-12-08T23:51:19Z yottabyte: what's the best way to create json? is it this?
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2020-12-08T23:52:43Z phoe: depends - there are multiple json libraries, and they have different encoding schemes
2020-12-08T23:53:06Z phoe: some of them allow you to turn instances into JSON
2020-12-08T23:53:09Z phoe: like, standard-objects
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2020-12-09T01:18:03Z lotuseater: Xach: i recently learned about the circle-ellipse problem and how it can be solved using CLOS with change-class and update-instance-for-redefined-class. advanced features for nontrivial problems :)
2020-12-09T01:19:22Z ebrasca: phoe: Hi
2020-12-09T01:20:09Z phoe: ebrasca: hey
2020-12-09T01:21:48Z ebrasca: phoe: I don't know how to help with Hexstream problem.
2020-12-09T01:22:14Z phoe: ebrasca: you don't need to.
2020-12-09T01:23:05Z phoe: I guess that you know shit has hit the fan when Ron Garret of NASA JPL fame decides to step in and settle some things straight.
2020-12-09T01:23:23Z phoe: ;; and I won't say any more here because I'm scared of jackdaniel even when he's most likely sleeping
2020-12-09T01:25:48Z curiouscain: I didn't know it was /that/ Ron Garrett
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2020-12-09T01:39:15Z mfiano: I use change-class quite a bit, and the foundation of my game engine depends on it actually.
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2020-12-09T02:00:00Z ldbeth: good morning
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2020-12-09T02:07:06Z Xach: www.xach.com/tmp/wobble.gif is some output from (hacked vecto)+skippy that i think looks neat
2020-12-09T02:07:17Z phoe: ooooooh
2020-12-09T02:07:27Z phoe: wobbly indeed
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2020-12-09T03:57:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-12-09T04:01:20Z fc2020apt[m]: I may start to consider Common Lisp later on today for me
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2020-12-09T04:01:39Z beach: fc2020apt[m]: Good plan.
2020-12-09T04:01:44Z beach: What took you so long?
2020-12-09T04:02:14Z fc2020apt[m]: Lack of motivation to program or do much else except gaming, and mostly used to C derivatives
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2020-12-09T04:02:47Z beach: I see.
2020-12-09T04:03:13Z fc2020apt[m]: I want to create a game and some utilities
2020-12-09T04:03:15Z pfdietz: Nobody uses change-class?!   Hmmph.
2020-12-09T04:03:23Z beach: pfdietz: Heh!
2020-12-09T04:03:39Z beach: pfdietz: That person must not have looked at Cleavir.
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2020-12-09T04:16:18Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
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2020-12-09T04:55:53Z easye: Morning #lisp:  another day, another CONS.
2020-12-09T04:56:24Z beach: Sounds good.
2020-12-09T04:56:53Z oni-on-ion: consequentially
2020-12-09T04:56:58Z beach: And, hello easye.
2020-12-09T04:57:40Z easye: Morning beach.  Have you heard anything about ELS2021 by the way?
2020-12-09T04:58:07Z beach: I have not. :(
2020-12-09T04:58:39Z beach: Maybe Didier needs a break.
2020-12-09T04:59:05Z easye: Alright.  I am going to try to touch base with Didier today, and see if we can get something going to give him a deserved break.
2020-12-09T04:59:22Z beach: That would be a very good thing.
2020-12-09T04:59:38Z beach: Might as well make it online from the start in 2021.
2020-12-09T04:59:48Z easye: Agreed.
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2020-12-09T05:00:11Z easye: So, practically maybe the call for papers would be delayed a couple months at worse case.
2020-12-09T05:00:49Z beach: Yeah, given that this is already December.
2020-12-09T05:01:06Z beach: Another month would be welcome.
2020-12-09T05:01:56Z beach: I'm off for a break.  Back in 30 minutes.
2020-12-09T05:05:36Z ebrasca: byte is n bits long in cl , can I set how muny bits read-byte reads?
2020-12-09T05:08:27Z Nilby: ebrasca: i think it's the element-type of the stream
2020-12-09T05:10:19Z ebrasca: Nilby: What about reading one 7bits byte and then one 31bits byte?
2020-12-09T05:11:21Z Nilby: ebrasca: There's various packages that can do that, e.g. flexi-streams.
2020-12-09T05:12:04Z Nilby: Some implementations might have implementation specific code.
2020-12-09T05:12:48Z Nilby: There's many things that do various size binary I/O on octet streams.
2020-12-09T05:18:21Z Nilby: a bunch of stuff on https://www.cliki.net/binary%20format
2020-12-09T05:19:24Z ldbeth: I'm looking for a compact data type for int * char -> int lookup
2020-12-09T05:20:28Z ldbeth: currently I take an array of hashtables
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2020-12-09T05:36:57Z beach: ldbeth: That will work only if the domain of n is compact.
2020-12-09T05:38:22Z beach: If it is not compact, a hash table of hash tables might be better.
2020-12-09T05:38:43Z beach: But this is a typical case where exploiting the properties of the domain can improve performance a lot.
2020-12-09T05:38:59Z beach: Like whether the domains are compact, small in size, etc.
2020-12-09T05:39:46Z beach: Also, another property to exploit might be the frequency of the modification of the mapping.
2020-12-09T05:40:13Z beach: As in, do you mostly query it and only rarely modify it?
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2020-12-09T05:52:20Z ldbeth: beach: yes. the integer domain is continous (from 0 to n), and charactor is limited to 245 ascii code
2020-12-09T05:52:37Z edgar-rft: easye: the CONSequences are unspecified...
2020-12-09T05:54:37Z beach: ldbeth: Then, for the characters, it is faster to have a vector of length 245 (256?), but that assumes the character domain is compact, which you haven't told us about.  If it is not, but it doesn't change very often, a binary search is faster than a hash table, so a vector with the sorted character keys in it.
2020-12-09T05:55:15Z beach: And if the character domain doesn't change very often at all, the fastest way is to compile a function that executes a decision tree.
2020-12-09T05:55:47Z beach: ldbeth: There are just too many options to be able to say anything general without knowing all these characteristics.
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2020-12-09T05:56:42Z beach: And you haven't told us what the objective is.  Speed?  Space?
2020-12-09T05:57:28Z ldbeth: beach: my intention is to represent an acyclic finite state automata for spell checking against a large dictionary
2020-12-09T05:58:09Z ldbeth: and that dictionary should be able to save to disk
2020-12-09T05:58:12Z beach: So what is the n?
2020-12-09T05:58:54Z ldbeth: it is the total states in automata, and it dependes on the size of dictionary
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2020-12-09T05:59:23Z beach: So the value of the mapping n X c is another state?
2020-12-09T06:00:44Z ldbeth: n * c -> n is a function given the current state and a char, find the next state
2020-12-09T06:00:49Z beach: For spell checking, I would go for a binary search rather than a hash table.
2020-12-09T06:00:59Z Nilby: anything like a dictionary seem like character tries would be good
2020-12-09T06:01:23Z beach: I guess that does make it a trie.
2020-12-09T06:02:32Z ldbeth: the acyclic fsm is a minimized trie
2020-12-09T06:03:28Z beach: Anyway, don't do a hash table for the characters.  For spell checking, I would do a full-size vector on the top level and a binary search on the following levels.
2020-12-09T06:04:07Z ldbeth: the method I'd try is describle in https://www.aclweb.org/anthology/J00-1002.pdf
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2020-12-09T06:06:18Z ldbeth: beach: i think you've made a nice suggestion
2020-12-09T06:06:28Z beach: Great!
2020-12-09T06:09:37Z ldbeth: since the words in dictionary are at least 3 chars long, I can make 2 levels of full-size vector and then do tree search
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2020-12-09T06:23:22Z beach: That would waste a lot of space I am afraid.  I am guessing that already at the second level, the domain is no longer very compact.
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2020-12-09T07:05:41Z lotuseater: beach: about 27 calls of CHANGE-CLASS in the current (master) Cleavir source code :)
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2020-12-09T07:07:44Z no-defun-allowed: Without CHANGE-CLASS, you can't write OVERWRITE-INSTANCE, which is a very fun thing to have around.
2020-12-09T07:08:05Z lotuseater: oh tell me more, never used it yet
2020-12-09T07:08:33Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: you could use MOP to individually clear every instance slot
2020-12-09T07:09:07Z lotuseater: it does not seem to be part of the standard specification
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2020-12-09T07:12:40Z no-defun-allowed: OVERWRITE-INSTANCE is a function I wrote somewhere in Netfarm, so that I could...overwrite an instance. It is not too complicated.
2020-12-09T07:13:24Z no-defun-allowed: Here it is: https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm/-/blob/master/Code/Objects/MOP/rewrite-references.lisp#L34
2020-12-09T07:13:48Z no-defun-allowed: I hope I don't use it ever; it probably handles unbound slots wrong, and also probably shouldn't call INITIALIZE-INSTANCE again. But it was quite fun.
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2020-12-09T07:13:58Z lotuseater: okay not too complicated sounds good for me
2020-12-09T07:14:40Z no-defun-allowed: I would have used it to store a "reference" object with the hash of an object I actually wanted to put in place, so that I can overwrite them lazily.
2020-12-09T07:15:55Z lotuseater: using the closer-mop lib is more portable, isn't it?
2020-12-09T07:16:29Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, using closer-mop is preferable over the MOP package of your implementation.
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2020-12-09T07:57:35Z nij: Why doesn't (equal (vector 1 2 3) (vector 1 2 3)) return 'T? I'm confused with the logic behind 'equal.
2020-12-09T07:57:52Z beach: clhs equal
2020-12-09T07:57:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm
2020-12-09T07:58:00Z nij: (I'm aware that I probably should use 'equalp to compare arrays.. just curious about why.)
2020-12-09T07:58:43Z beach: I am guessing your two vectors are EQ.
2020-12-09T07:58:44Z nij: Yeah.. so it's just a nice convention?
2020-12-09T07:58:49Z beach: Are you sure you typed it that way?
2020-12-09T07:59:25Z nij: It gives me NIL, indeed.
2020-12-09T07:59:59Z beach: nij: Common Lisp proposes a set of predefined equality predicates that were deemed useful.
2020-12-09T08:00:15Z nij: By the DOC you posted, they shouldn't EQUAL. The two vectors are constructed at different addresses.
2020-12-09T08:00:21Z beach: nij: If you don't find them useful in your situation, then you need to define your own.
2020-12-09T08:00:32Z nij: I see.
2020-12-09T08:00:35Z nij: Thanks :)
2020-12-09T08:00:38Z beach: Yes, and NIL indicates they are not equal.
2020-12-09T08:01:23Z beach: But if the two arguments to EQUAL happen to be EQ, then obviously a true value is returned.
2020-12-09T08:01:42Z beach: As in (defparameter *v* (vector 1 2 3)) and then (equal *v* *v*).
2020-12-09T08:01:49Z beach: Does that make sense to you?
2020-12-09T08:02:23Z nij: Yes.
2020-12-09T08:02:30Z beach: Great!
2020-12-09T08:02:32Z nij: I'm just curious why it got implemented by that..
2020-12-09T08:02:48Z beach: Why what got implemented by what else?
2020-12-09T08:02:50Z nij: Anyway.. perhaps what I really "need" is equalp.
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2020-12-09T08:03:47Z nij: Like.. 'eq compares if both things are the same object.
2020-12-09T08:03:47Z nij: But usually we want to compare if both things have the same "value".
2020-12-09T08:03:55Z nij: Or at least we want to compare both things in mathematical sense.
2020-12-09T08:03:57Z beach: Oh dear.
2020-12-09T08:04:13Z beach: You need to read Pitmans web page about equality.
2020-12-09T08:04:25Z beach: nij: Equality is way more complicated than that.
2020-12-09T08:04:41Z nij: link please?
2020-12-09T08:04:42Z beach: nij: The phone company thinks me and my wife are equal because we have the same phone number.
2020-12-09T08:04:57Z nij: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss143_w.htm  ?
2020-12-09T08:05:03Z beach: No.
2020-12-09T08:05:04Z no-defun-allowed: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2020-12-09T08:05:16Z no-defun-allowed: "The best of intentions: EQUAL Rights - and Wrongs - in Lisp"
2020-12-09T08:05:23Z nij: Will read!
2020-12-09T08:05:25Z beach: That one.
2020-12-09T08:05:30Z nij: Thanks for pointing it out :))
2020-12-09T08:05:44Z beach: nij: So there is no such thing as "value equality" independent of the situation.
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2020-12-09T08:06:45Z beach: nij: The mathematical equality you are referring to works only in the very restricted universe of mathematicians, where most things are numbers, or isomorphic to numbers.
2020-12-09T08:07:43Z beach: nij: So welcome to the world of software development.
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2020-12-09T08:10:16Z nij: Highlight: There is no uniquely determined equality function for complex structures--there are only arbitrary ones.
2020-12-09T08:10:36Z beach: That's basically what I said.
2020-12-09T08:10:50Z beach: In most cases, you need to supply your own.
2020-12-09T08:10:56Z nij: So, if I want strict mathematical sense of equal, should I just use equalp?
2020-12-09T08:11:09Z nij: Or there is something called 'equalpp?
2020-12-09T08:11:15Z beach: If you want strict mathematical sense, you need to use numbers as your only data type.
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2020-12-09T08:12:56Z no-defun-allowed: It is impossible to decide if two terms in the lambda calculus are equivalent, so I am sure mathematicians get into hairy situations too. "where most things are numbers, or isomorphic to numbers" doesn't hold for those situations, of course.
2020-12-09T08:13:10Z beach: nij: Imagine you have several graphs of objects.  Now you want to check whether two objects are "equal in the strict mathematical sense".  Are you suggesting that this equality predicate will then have to solve the graph isomorphism problem?
2020-12-09T08:13:58Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Sure, though mathematicians are not that much into decidability.  That's mainly for CS people.
2020-12-09T08:14:30Z no-defun-allowed: Ouch, I was going to mention graphs, but NP isn't quite undecidable. /me needs graph isomorphism for her idea of approximating protocol equivalence.
2020-12-09T08:14:33Z nij: Oh now I get it.
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2020-12-09T08:14:43Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Oh, okay.
2020-12-09T08:15:27Z nij: Oh no. It's indeed hairy :(
2020-12-09T08:15:47Z nij: How then would one really decide which to use? By reading the source code of all of them?
2020-12-09T08:16:00Z beach: By reading the Common Lisp HyperSpec definition.
2020-12-09T08:16:02Z nij: It could cause highly unexpected error!!
2020-12-09T08:16:25Z nij: Oh.. is CLHS definition the official one?
2020-12-09T08:16:35Z beach: Er, yes.
2020-12-09T08:16:42Z beach: That's the HTML version of the standard.
2020-12-09T08:16:51Z no-defun-allowed: As close to an official definition as you can get without spending money.
2020-12-09T08:16:58Z nij: New here :) Thanks!
2020-12-09T08:17:13Z beach: nij: Again, you will usually have to define your own equality predicate.  If what you need happens to correspond to the definition of one of the existing ones, then use it.
2020-12-09T08:17:26Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, the Common Lisp HyperSpec defines the semantics of such predicates, as well as everything else in Common Lisp (except the parts it leaves undefined for whatever reason).
2020-12-09T08:17:53Z beach: And equality predicates are not one of those parts as I recall.
2020-12-09T08:19:40Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed, but I was expecting someone to say "no, the standard leaves some behaviour undefined", so I put the part in parens in.
2020-12-09T08:19:52Z beach: Good planning! :)
2020-12-09T08:20:02Z phoe: good morning
2020-12-09T08:20:06Z beach: Hey phoe.
2020-12-09T08:20:08Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe.
2020-12-09T08:20:12Z phoe: hi hey
2020-12-09T08:20:31Z beach: phoe: I am still your friend.  Though not a very close one, I'll admit. :)
2020-12-09T08:21:08Z phoe: oh my god that's dangerous
2020-12-09T08:21:14Z beach: ?
2020-12-09T08:21:22Z beach: Oh, being your friend?
2020-12-09T08:21:24Z adlai: nij: keep an eye out for :test and :test-not keyword arguments that are taken by many of the sequence functions, and allow you to supply your own customized equality predicates
2020-12-09T08:21:27Z phoe: yes
2020-12-09T08:21:33Z beach: phoe: We might want to keep it to ourselves.
2020-12-09T08:21:39Z phoe: beach: OK
2020-12-09T08:21:51Z phoe: let's do it that way
2020-12-09T08:21:58Z beach: Yeah. :)
2020-12-09T08:22:10Z phoe: :D
2020-12-09T08:22:20Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, speaking of protocols, how would you define a protocol in a rigorous, but hopefully not too tedious, manner? I am currently thinking operations (with optional argument and return types), some test cases, and some representation of how I should expect the state of objects to change, should there be state.
2020-12-09T08:22:42Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: no protocol classes?
2020-12-09T08:22:43Z adlai: your question seems hopelessly abstract
2020-12-09T08:22:59Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Can I assume you read the section of my book about protocols?
2020-12-09T08:23:18Z no-defun-allowed: phoe: Well, a type is a bundle of operations that can be applied to an object of that type, in my head.
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2020-12-09T08:23:33Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Yes, from memory you define a protocol as a set of types and functions?
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2020-12-09T08:23:39Z beach: Yes.
2020-12-09T08:23:49Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I think what you suggest is basically it.
2020-12-09T08:23:57Z beach: Plus exceptional situations and such.
2020-12-09T08:24:02Z no-defun-allowed: Gotcha.
2020-12-09T08:24:46Z beach: The more you can refer to other protocol operations, the better.  Like, A can be applied to an object O only if B returns true for O.
2020-12-09T08:25:15Z beach: Or, if A returns ??? for an object then B can be applied to that object...
2020-12-09T08:25:28Z no-defun-allowed: Additionally speaking of Netfarm (with OVERWRITE-INSTANCE), I want to have a go at using definitions of protocols to create glue logic between protocols that are not compatible, but could be made compatible with such logic.
2020-12-09T08:25:37Z beach: Example, you can POP the stack only if EMPTY returns FALSE.
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2020-12-09T08:26:20Z beach: That's an interesting problem.
2020-12-09T08:26:26Z beach: Sounds complicated.
2020-12-09T08:27:03Z no-defun-allowed: beach: In a short article I wrote, I imagined a finite state machine, where each state had a predicate that would return true if the object was in that state, and some functions to transition between them. But that does not help for your operation A, which may not cause a transition, and it is also no good for modelling a stack.
2020-12-09T08:28:12Z beach: Yes, things might be more complicated than that.  Transitions might depend on the history of operations applied.
2020-12-09T08:28:31Z no-defun-allowed: Well, I don't like the other approaches to developing protocols in a decentralised way, because they are too concerned with representations and not operations.
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2020-12-09T08:29:02Z lotuseater: oh damn, coming back short to the equal question, seems like SXHASH just hashes on the array dimension. interesting
2020-12-09T08:29:05Z beach: By "decentralised", you mean by any old developer without coordination?
2020-12-09T08:29:21Z beach: no-defun-allowed: ^
2020-12-09T08:29:25Z no-defun-allowed: If you concern yourself with operations and not representation, you already get some leeway, but translating operations somehow seems less hopeless than representation.
2020-12-09T08:29:33Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
2020-12-09T08:29:38Z beach: I totally agree.
2020-12-09T08:29:56Z beach: Many developers are not very good ones.
2020-12-09T08:31:36Z no-defun-allowed: Suppose I have a server which implements protocol A, and you make a server which implements an extension of A, call it A'. Now what should I do if I receive an object from your protocol? I can either just drop your extensions, or see how much of your extension I can present to the client. (I want to do the latter, but in my opinion that's the less interesting question of this one and the next one.)
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2020-12-09T08:33:20Z no-defun-allowed: Now what if, somewhere on Equivalent Earth, an equivalent no-defun-allowed creates an implementation of protocol B, and I somehow find their objects laying around somewhere. For some definition of "isomorphic", if those protocols are isomorphic, then I could use those objects like they were from protocol A.
2020-12-09T08:33:31Z no-defun-allowed: "...laying around somewhere?"
2020-12-09T08:34:59Z White_Flame: "LYING around somewhere" </my mom>
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2020-12-09T08:36:41Z no-defun-allowed: adlai: Perhaps, but I think a sufficiently good answer would save everyone from forwards, backwards and cross -compatibility woes.
2020-12-09T08:36:41Z srandon111: guys does sbcl statically compiles by default? if not, how can i build a standalone statically compiled executable ? 
2020-12-09T08:37:00Z no-defun-allowed: Compiling is a different operation to generating an executable.
2020-12-09T08:37:15Z beach: srandon111: "statically"?
2020-12-09T08:37:25Z srandon111: beach, yes
2020-12-09T08:37:30Z no-defun-allowed: As opposed to "dynamic compilation" (also "just-in-time compiling"), SBCL would be mostly "static", I suppose.
2020-12-09T08:37:38Z beach: srandon111: What does it mean?
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2020-12-09T08:38:18Z beach: srandon111: The semantics of a Common Lisp program can be defined by a suite of interactions, starting with the initial image.
2020-12-09T08:38:26Z srandon111: beach, do you know about the dynamic libraries (in gnu/linux are the .so, whilee on Windows are the .dll), well instead of relying on these ones, you basically put everything in the executable image...
2020-12-09T08:38:33Z beach: srandon111: This is different from most "batch" programming languages.
2020-12-09T08:38:34Z srandon111: so that you do not have external deps
2020-12-09T08:38:56Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, why mostly static?
2020-12-09T08:38:58Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know of a way to create static executables with SBCL; SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE usually creates dynamically linked executables.
2020-12-09T08:39:13Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, ok you said a different thing before
2020-12-09T08:39:17Z beach: srandon111: If you just use save-lisp-and-die in SBCL, you can generate an executable from the current state of your system.
2020-12-09T08:39:21Z srandon111: you said that sbcl is mostly static
2020-12-09T08:39:34Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, you are confusing me
2020-12-09T08:39:34Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: "static compilation" would be the opposite of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_compilation, where code is recompiled with type information observed at runtime.
2020-12-09T08:39:43Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, i know
2020-12-09T08:40:08Z srandon111: beach, that's interesting thanks for giving me this info
2020-12-09T08:40:14Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think anyone calls static linking "static compilation".
2020-12-09T08:40:15Z beach: Sure.
2020-12-09T08:41:35Z no-defun-allowed: Er, you use lld to see the libraries an executable depends on under Linux, right?
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2020-12-09T08:42:37Z no-defun-allowed: ldd, not lld
2020-12-09T08:44:03Z no-defun-allowed: Phew, lld told me to use ld.lld, which did not want anything to do with my SBCL image.
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2020-12-09T08:45:38Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: SBCL does create dynamically-linked executables, and there aren't any relevant arguments to save-lisp-and die that would cause it to create statically-linked executables. You might want to ask in #sbcl, but using the phrase "statically-linked executable" instead of "static compilation".
2020-12-09T08:46:54Z beach could not, as usual, have guessed what was meant from the terminology that was used.
2020-12-09T08:47:36Z no-defun-allowed: I am hoping "static linking" and "dynamic linking" are more familiar? I don't usually discuss Unix executables.
2020-12-09T08:48:00Z lotuseater: and it's important not to use it in Emacs/SLIME since single threading
2020-12-09T08:48:53Z beach: Speaking of which, I just noticed I have a signed copy of "Linkers and Loaders" by John Levine.
2020-12-09T08:49:14Z beach: I don't think I ever met him, so he must have mailed it to me.
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2020-12-09T08:50:49Z beach: I especially enjoyed the chapter on the consequences of dynamic linking in Unix to the complexity of the entire system, which GOTs and whatnot.
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2020-12-09T08:55:08Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, ok so you know no wy to create a statically-linked executable with sbcl ?
2020-12-09T08:55:18Z no-defun-allowed: That is correct.
2020-12-09T08:55:45Z lotuseater: the CFFI manual contains a little section about static linking with ASDF
2020-12-09T08:55:54Z lotuseater: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Static-Linking.html
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2020-12-09T09:05:35Z oni-on-ion: cool, that looks like the answer to a question i asked yesterday.
2020-12-09T09:06:16Z lotuseater: okay well then :)
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2020-12-09T09:08:21Z lotuseater: for commercial use cases implementations like LispWorks may have better built-in support for it
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2020-12-09T09:09:08Z srandon111: oni-on-ion which question ?
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2020-12-09T10:03:36Z nij: Hello, I tried to loop over an array and collect some computed stuff into a 'tmplist using 'nconc.. but after evaluating the loop, 'tmplist remains its initial value. Why so? https://bpa.st/JYGQ
2020-12-09T10:04:15Z nij: (There are many many bad styles.. any suggestions on styles would be appreciated to!)
2020-12-09T10:04:19Z nij: s/to/too
2020-12-09T10:06:05Z no-defun-allowed: You should use the return value of NCONC, and not use it "for effect". And you should not use destructive functions on quoted datum.
2020-12-09T10:06:09Z beach: nij: SETQ on an undefined variable is undefined behavior.
2020-12-09T10:06:30Z beach: nij: And put the DO LOOP keyword first on a line.
2020-12-09T10:06:35Z beach: And indent using SLIME.
2020-12-09T10:07:05Z nij: beach: I'm using SLIME and indent by pressing M-q.
2020-12-09T10:07:22Z beach: Then put the DO keyword first on a line and indent again.
2020-12-09T10:07:26Z beach: nij: And what is the 'nil at the end?
2020-12-09T10:07:44Z beach: nij: 'nil means you return a symbol.
2020-12-09T10:08:02Z nij: If cond fails, "do nothing"?
2020-12-09T10:08:02Z no-defun-allowed: Er, does M-q indent? I thought it wraps your text to 72 columns, which is ridiculous for code.
2020-12-09T10:08:13Z beach: But in fact, your entire IF expression is evaluated for side effect only as far as I can tell.
2020-12-09T10:08:14Z no-defun-allowed: clhs when
2020-12-09T10:08:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_when_.htm
2020-12-09T10:08:26Z nij: no-defun-allowed: forgot how I set it up but it did some indenting while in lisp mode.. not optimal
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2020-12-09T10:08:37Z beach: nij: Indent using a region and M-\
2020-12-09T10:08:57Z nij: lemme see. Dear it's a huge load of info. Happy learning :)
2020-12-09T10:08:59Z beach: nij: For example, set the region around the defun and then indent.
2020-12-09T10:09:16Z no-defun-allowed: From memory, isn't "for n being the elements of" a SBCL extension for the extensible sequence protocol?
2020-12-09T10:09:32Z beach: Sounds right.
2020-12-09T10:10:09Z no-defun-allowed: However, this could be greatly simplified with some more LOOP features.
2020-12-09T10:10:29Z nij: Hold on.. first of M-\ doesn't work. What's the function for indenting?
2020-12-09T10:10:44Z beach: Maybe it's C-M-\
2020-12-09T10:10:50Z beach: My fingers know it, but not my brain.
2020-12-09T10:10:53Z nij: Second of, why isn't my 'tmplist changed after the loop?
2020-12-09T10:11:08Z no-defun-allowed: (loop for n <some-iteration-keyword> sequence for nth-entry = ... for next-entry = ... when (friday-p nth-entry) collect ...)
2020-12-09T10:11:36Z no-defun-allowed: What is 'tmplist? I wouldn't expect evaluating (quote tmplist) to ever return a different value.
2020-12-09T10:11:37Z nij: beach: neither did C-M-\ work
2020-12-09T10:11:50Z beach: nij: Did you have a region to indent?
2020-12-09T10:12:02Z nij: beach: I did select the region
2020-12-09T10:12:09Z beach: Works for me.
2020-12-09T10:12:11Z no-defun-allowed: My guess is it's the value of tmplist?
2020-12-09T10:12:35Z nij: @@
2020-12-09T10:12:38Z no-defun-allowed: Does it do anything that pressing TAB doesn't?
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2020-12-09T10:12:52Z nij: Hold on....
2020-12-09T10:13:03Z nij: Ok I should do one thing at a time :O
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2020-12-09T10:13:30Z nij: In the code I posted, tmplist isn't quoted.
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2020-12-09T10:13:52Z nij: I expected that 'nconc will perform side-effect on tmplist, during the loop.
2020-12-09T10:14:05Z beach: You have (setq tmplist '(0 0))
2020-12-09T10:14:08Z nij: But in the end, tmplist maintains its initival value.
2020-12-09T10:14:27Z nij: Yes. '(0 0) is its initial value
2020-12-09T10:14:36Z beach: But you are not allowed to modify literal data.
2020-12-09T10:14:42Z no-defun-allowed: What kind of side effect are you expecting?
2020-12-09T10:14:46Z beach: And you are not allowed to SETQ an undefined variable.
2020-12-09T10:14:59Z nij: I hope at the end it will be (0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6) for example
2020-12-09T10:15:21Z no-defun-allowed: You could write something like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2188#2188 which doesn't require additional variables.
2020-12-09T10:15:40Z nij: beach: I added (defvar tmplist).. same thing happened.
2020-12-09T10:15:54Z no-defun-allowed: What does MAKE-SEQ do?
2020-12-09T10:16:02Z nij: (make-seq 3) => (0 1 2 3)
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2020-12-09T10:16:24Z nij: (make-seq 7) => (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
2020-12-09T10:16:28Z no-defun-allowed: I fear that it is a consing way of writing (loop for n below (1- (length spdata)))
2020-12-09T10:16:44Z no-defun-allowed: Hey, if spdata is a sequence, how would (- spdata 2) work in (make-seq (length (- spdata 2)))?
2020-12-09T10:16:50Z nij: yay!
2020-12-09T10:16:54Z nij: spdata is an a arry
2020-12-09T10:17:30Z nij: no-defun-allowed: Yes there are many looping hack but it's the first time I'm using it.. I will come back and fix the style later.
2020-12-09T10:17:44Z nij: Still confused with why tmplist isn't changed..
2020-12-09T10:17:56Z no-defun-allowed: (There are many many bad styles.. any suggestions on styles would be appreciated to!)
2020-12-09T10:18:16Z nij:  I do appreciate. But then I realized I can deal only with one thing T_T
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2020-12-09T10:18:22Z no-defun-allowed: There is no reason to expect nconc to change the value of tmplist at all.
2020-12-09T10:18:25Z no-defun-allowed: clhs nconc
2020-12-09T10:18:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nconc.htm
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2020-12-09T10:19:22Z nij: no-defun-allowed: This is exactly where I learned to use nconc.
2020-12-09T10:19:32Z nij: In particular, it reads  (nconc x y) =>  (A B C D E F)
2020-12-09T10:19:32Z nij:  x =>  (A B C D E F)
2020-12-09T10:19:48Z no-defun-allowed: The description does not help my case, but it is usually considered bad style.
2020-12-09T10:19:51Z nij: The value of x /was/ (A B C). But after being nconc-ed, x changes.
2020-12-09T10:20:01Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Isn't NCONC one of the functions with a mandatory side destructive side effect.
2020-12-09T10:20:05Z no-defun-allowed: Note that the other examples of NCONC also SETQ the return value.
2020-12-09T10:20:12Z no-defun-allowed: beach: It is indeed.
2020-12-09T10:20:31Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe I was thinking of SORT.
2020-12-09T10:21:05Z nij: @@
2020-12-09T10:21:11Z nij: So....... why isn't my tmplist changed?
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2020-12-09T10:22:21Z nij: I loaded (nconc tmplist (list 1 2)) by hand.. and it did change the value of tmplist.
2020-12-09T10:22:39Z no-defun-allowed: I am wondering how you got anything to happen still, as (length (- spdata 2)) could not possibly return a value if SPDATA is an array.
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2020-12-09T10:23:16Z nij: OH dang =_=
2020-12-09T10:23:23Z nij: Maybe that's the reason! I missed it.
2020-12-09T10:23:52Z no-defun-allowed: Was a relevant error not signalled?
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2020-12-09T10:24:29Z nij: It did behave unexpectedly, but I didn't notice any error.
2020-12-09T10:24:38Z mfiano: Then you are not even evaluating it or you are altering the default safety level.
2020-12-09T10:24:40Z nij: Fixed....... now it works =_+ the problem isn't in nconc.
2020-12-09T10:24:56Z no-defun-allowed: Frobbing how?
2020-12-09T10:25:03Z nij: Ok.. so I think I understand nconc correctly.
2020-12-09T10:25:09Z nij: Lemme post the correct code.
2020-12-09T10:25:28Z nij: https://bpa.st/EDOA
2020-12-09T10:26:05Z beach: nij: You are still not allowed to modify literal data.
2020-12-09T10:26:08Z nij: Now I should try to fix the style. As you suggested, no-defun-allowed, I should use "loop.. under" and "collect"?
2020-12-09T10:26:26Z nij: beach: Where did I modify literal data?
2020-12-09T10:26:28Z beach: '(0 0) is literal data and you are modifying it.
2020-12-09T10:26:43Z nij: Why shouldn't I modify '(0 0)
2020-12-09T10:26:45Z mfiano: Yes this is undefined behavior, and bad style all over the place. But undefined behavior could do anything at all.
2020-12-09T10:26:54Z no-defun-allowed: (loop for x below 10 collecting x) ⇒ (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
2020-12-09T10:27:01Z beach: nij: Because '(0 0) is literal data and you are not allowed to modify literal data.
2020-12-09T10:27:20Z nij: beach: But it did work on my system..
2020-12-09T10:27:23Z mfiano: '(0 0) is a list literal and the compiler can choose to do anything if you modify it.
2020-12-09T10:27:34Z mfiano: Did work, and will always work is a big difference. Undefined is undefined
2020-12-09T10:27:45Z beach: nij: "Undefined behavior" means that it may work on some implementations and not on others.
2020-12-09T10:27:51Z no-defun-allowed: nij: And on someone else's system, it is allowed to send them nasal demons instead.
2020-12-09T10:28:03Z mfiano: Or it may work on one implementation, and may not work at another time on the same implementation.
2020-12-09T10:28:07Z nij: So I shouldn't even do something like this? :
2020-12-09T10:28:07Z beach: nij: In this case, if you are using SBCL and you stick your code in a function it won't work the second time you run it.
2020-12-09T10:28:07Z nij: (nconc '(0 0) '(1 2))
2020-12-09T10:28:36Z no-defun-allowed: For the avoidance of doubt, that is not a very nice thing to send someone.
2020-12-09T10:28:50Z nij: I see. I will take it seriously. How should I fix my code?
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2020-12-09T10:29:19Z nij: .. well I might just look into 'collect and use it.
2020-12-09T10:29:23Z beach: nij: Try (defun ff (x) (nconc '(0) x)) then (ff '(10)) and (ff '(20))
2020-12-09T10:29:30Z mfiano: Start by forgetting SETQ even exists, and use SETF. Secondly, make proper use of lexical variables. You do not need global state here.
2020-12-09T10:29:41Z no-defun-allowed: You could use (list 0 0) to create a fresh list, or (ideally, in my opinion) use COLLECT in LOOP to create the list. But the latter won't produce the (0 0) prefix.
2020-12-09T10:29:44Z beach: nij: It is important that you understand why that does what it does.
2020-12-09T10:30:14Z nij: no-defun-allowed: You are suggesting I use (list 0 0) instead of '(0 0)?
2020-12-09T10:30:31Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
2020-12-09T10:31:25Z nij: beach: Oh that did fail. Thanks for the example!
2020-12-09T10:31:29Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, if you don't use COLLECT but you create a list (without cleverly holding a reference to the end of the list somewhere), appending to the end will result in O(n^2) time complexity.
2020-12-09T10:31:50Z nij: no-defun-allowed: I see.
2020-12-09T10:32:23Z nij: mfiano: I used SETQ too much in elisp :(
2020-12-09T10:32:35Z nij: To use SETF I should understand what a place is.
2020-12-09T10:32:44Z nij: But I never succeeded. Will try again.
2020-12-09T10:32:44Z mfiano: Use setf in elisp too so you don't forget that SETQ is a historical artifact
2020-12-09T10:33:06Z no-defun-allowed: (setq x v) does the same thing as (setf x v)
2020-12-09T10:33:07Z nij: mfiano: that's surprising to know cuz SETQ appears so often in elisp
2020-12-09T10:34:47Z nij: So.. lessons learned: 1. Use (list 1 1) instead of '(1 1) if it is to be modified.   2. Use 'collect and "loop .. below".    3. Use 'setf instead of 'setq.
2020-12-09T10:34:59Z nij: Thank you all so much!
2020-12-09T10:37:03Z mfiano: Do not try to draw parallels to other dialects as a beginner. It will not end well.
2020-12-09T10:38:00Z Alfr_: nij, usually (nconc list lists) will modify list and you can skip the setf, but if list is nil, then list will still be nil and nconc's result may differ.
2020-12-09T10:38:57Z nij: I see.
2020-12-09T10:39:09Z nij: Yeah I am tring to forget elisp..
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2020-12-09T10:44:07Z dim: mfiano: I think we can say this: setf is a macro that uses setq when needed, so any time you write setq, you can write setf and have the exact same effects ; then in some cases you can use setf where setq would not be supported
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2020-12-09T10:44:35Z dim: mmm, I guess that was for nij actually?
2020-12-09T10:44:42Z dim: not following closely enough sorry folks
2020-12-09T10:45:58Z nij`: Oh I got logged out :()
2020-12-09T10:46:05Z nij`: Hopefully I didn't miss too much.
2020-12-09T10:46:05Z nij`:  
2020-12-09T10:46:22Z nij`: I will have to understand 'setf.
2020-12-09T10:54:40Z Stanley00 quit
2020-12-09T11:00:54Z phoe: nij`: no problem, this channel is logged
2020-12-09T11:00:58Z phoe: so you can see what you missed.
2020-12-09T11:02:04Z easye: "This will go down on your *permanent record*."
2020-12-09T11:03:39Z shinohai: "But muh GDPR!"
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2020-12-09T11:28:39Z phoe: yes, GDPR stands for Global Data Permanent Record
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2020-12-09T11:38:17Z harlchen: whats the easiest way to only get local package warnings/errors on test-op's in (asdf:defsystem '.../tests ... ) instead of redefining of external defgenerics e.g. 'WARNING: redefining LOG4CL-IMPL::PROPERTY-ALIST in DEFGENERIC' and 'cl-fad.asd" contains definition for system "cl-fad-test". Please only define "cl-fad" and secondary systems ....'  ?
2020-12-09T11:39:49Z Xach: harlchen: if you find a way, please let me know. i would like something very similar.
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2020-12-09T13:58:19Z srandon111: guys what are your favorite lisp books after PCL ?
2020-12-09T13:59:11Z flip214: "lisp" as in "lisp family" -- sicp with scheme
2020-12-09T13:59:42Z flip214: minion: tell srandon111 about sicp
2020-12-09T13:59:42Z minion: srandon111: look at sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at <http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/> (HTML), <http://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-texi/> (Texinfo), and <http://twb.ath.cx/ebooks/sicp.pdf> (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at <http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/>
2020-12-09T14:00:34Z srandon111: flip214, i already know sicp, no no i mean lispy lisp :)
2020-12-09T14:00:49Z flip214: "lisp" as in "Common Lisp" - If you have some practice and want to learn about macros, Let Over Lambda
2020-12-09T14:01:01Z srandon111: flip214, why do you prefer common lisp over scheme ?
2020-12-09T14:01:33Z flip214: well, how about land of lisp?
2020-12-09T14:01:42Z flip214: minion: tell srandon111 about LoL
2020-12-09T14:01:42Z minion: srandon111: please look at LoL: Land of Lisp - http://landoflisp.com
2020-12-09T14:02:03Z flip214: srandon111: because it's an engineering language, with lots of libraries
2020-12-09T14:03:26Z phoe: srandon111: Common Lisp Recipes
2020-12-09T14:03:28Z srandon111: flip214, what do you mean by engineering lanaguge?
2020-12-09T14:03:33Z srandon111: flip214, yes land of lisp is cool
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2020-12-09T14:03:57Z flip214: well, scheme is a small, clean language, used to proof CS lemmas
2020-12-09T14:04:12Z flip214: CL is a heavy thing you can solve real-world issues with
2020-12-09T14:04:12Z aeth: Land of Lisp has the unfortunate distinction of being a Lisp book that didn't age well, even a few years after release. e.g. relying on CLISP right around when CLISP died, or mentioning Arc as an up-and-coming Lisp, etc.
2020-12-09T14:04:46Z aeth: really unfortunate timing for a bunch of things
2020-12-09T14:05:27Z flip214: aeth: well, write 1024 books with 10 forecasts, then you'll have 1 real hit
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2020-12-09T14:07:51Z wsinatra: Let over Lambda is a good read if you're curious about macros
2020-12-09T14:08:05Z wsinatra: I'll second CLR as well, good suggestion phoe
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2020-12-09T14:08:17Z flip214: minion: tell srandon111 about Loλ
2020-12-09T14:08:18Z minion: Loλ: An error was encountered in lookup: #\GREEK_SMALL_LETTER_LAMDA (code 955) is not a LATIN-1 character..
2020-12-09T14:08:26Z flip214: minion: tell srandon111 about LOL
2020-12-09T14:08:27Z minion: srandon111: look at LOL: Land of Lisp - http://landoflisp.com
2020-12-09T14:08:29Z flip214: minion: tell srandon111 about lol
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2020-12-09T14:08:44Z flip214: hmmm, how would I address LoΛ?
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2020-12-09T14:10:40Z tfb: flip214: I think ...
2020-12-09T14:10:59Z tfb: minion: tell srandon111 about let over lambda
2020-12-09T14:10:59Z minion: let over lambda: https://www.cliki.net/let%20over%20lambda
2020-12-09T14:11:44Z tfb: which is not really the right URL though
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2020-12-09T14:23:02Z pfdietz: How is CLISP dead?  Not disputing that, but I want to know how that's defined.
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2020-12-09T14:23:57Z jackdaniel: from my experience on this channel: everything what is not hosted on github and doesn't have at least 3 commits / month is essentially dead, stinks and shouldn't be used by anyone
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2020-12-09T14:24:17Z jackdaniel: (I don't share that opinion)
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2020-12-09T14:25:52Z ioa: I thought common lisp projects are mainly hosted on gitlab.common-lisp.net not github :)
2020-12-09T14:26:15Z jackdaniel: what undeniably proves, that lisp is dead ;-)
2020-12-09T14:26:27Z ioa: XD
2020-12-09T14:26:36Z srandon111: minion, how racist is minion by only allowing latin chars and not greek chars???
2020-12-09T14:26:36Z minion: i agree - how racist is minion by only allowing latin chars and not greek chars
2020-12-09T14:26:39Z ioa: (I disagree with that opinion as well btw ^^ )
2020-12-09T14:27:19Z srandon111: minion, соме руссиан цхарацтерс фор ыоу
2020-12-09T14:27:19Z minion: соме руссиан цхарацтерс фор ыоу: An error was encountered in lookup: #\CYRILLIC_SMALL_LETTER_ES (code 1089) is not a LATIN-1 character..
2020-12-09T14:27:25Z srandon111: damn
2020-12-09T14:27:49Z srandon111: it's also racist against russians...
2020-12-09T14:27:56Z srandon111: i wonder if minion is chinese
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2020-12-09T14:28:46Z srandon111 is now known as sookablyat
2020-12-09T14:29:03Z ioa waiting to see sookablyat's chinese phrase ^^
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2020-12-09T14:29:57Z sookablyat: 奴才给你一些中文。! minion
2020-12-09T14:30:02Z sookablyat: take this
2020-12-09T14:30:19Z sookablyat: damn minion does not complain about chinese... so he definitely is half latin half chinese...
2020-12-09T14:30:42Z sookablyat: probably a chinese father and a latin mother... coming from romania... yes... this explains his hate for russian
2020-12-09T14:31:28Z aeth_: pfdietz: Technically, CLISP is more undead than dead. Last release 2010-07-07 (more than 10 years ago at this point). It still gets commits, but it's not active enough to push a new release so most people have moved on to other CLs. https://clisp.sourceforge.io/
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2020-12-09T14:32:06Z sookablyat: aeth, wait we were tralking about common lisp not clisp
2020-12-09T14:32:10Z aeth: jackdaniel: When SBCL is getting releases once-a-month and CLISP is getting releases once-a-decade, I can't help but compare the activity levels between the two.
2020-12-09T14:33:02Z phoe: clisp is not active enough to merge PLNs though
2020-12-09T14:33:16Z phoe: that's a pain because more and more code assumes that PLNs are present
2020-12-09T14:33:26Z sookablyat: minion, tell phoe to slow down
2020-12-09T14:33:26Z minion: phoe: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
2020-12-09T14:33:39Z aeth: Right, CLISP was already behind major implementations on popular optional-but-not-mandated-by-the-standard features (e.g. it doesn't have double-float or single-float specialized arrays)
2020-12-09T14:33:46Z aeth: And it's only going further behind by not having stuff like PLN
2020-12-09T14:33:56Z aeth: More and more code will either not work well or not work on CLISP over time.
2020-12-09T14:34:00Z phoe: sookablyat: wait, how does that work
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2020-12-09T14:34:07Z sookablyat: phoe, what?
2020-12-09T14:34:20Z phoe: you told minion to tell me something and minion actually told me something
2020-12-09T14:34:24Z phoe: interesting
2020-12-09T14:34:44Z sookablyat: phoe, well you just use minion tell <user> <something>
2020-12-09T14:35:04Z phoe: minion: tell sookablyat something
2020-12-09T14:35:04Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``thing''.
2020-12-09T14:35:17Z jackdaniel: I'm impressed with sbcl devs performance too; I'm still not sure how it maps on dying. I'm not dead because I don't run as fast as [put some athlet here]. I'm dead because they torture minion.
2020-12-09T14:35:18Z phoe: weird
2020-12-09T14:35:26Z sookablyat: minion, tell phoe how to use you
2020-12-09T14:35:26Z minion: phoe: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
2020-12-09T14:35:33Z phoe hides
2020-12-09T14:35:39Z jackdaniel: sookablyat: please stop generating noise on the channel
2020-12-09T14:35:51Z sookablyat: jackdaniel, i was helping a comrade
2020-12-09T14:35:53Z jackdaniel: (you may query minion)
2020-12-09T14:36:02Z aeth: jackdaniel: If something is a tiny Common Lisp library written in portable CL with no CFFI dependencies, then it's very likely that it'll still run 15-25 years later, perhaps without modification.
2020-12-09T14:36:27Z jackdaniel: still not the part I disagree with
2020-12-09T14:36:45Z aeth: jackdaniel: If something is a Common Lisp implementation and it doesn't push out a release in the past 5 years, it's essentially dead. There are too many things that change over that time period. phoe brought up an excellent example in package-local-nicknames. Lots of libraries depend on those now, and thus can no longer run on CLISP.
2020-12-09T14:37:13Z Nilby: I think ECL has replaced CLisp's main ecological niche, being compiled from relatively portable C.
2020-12-09T14:37:17Z aeth: In a sense, you can have a tiny Common Lisp library run without modifications decades later because all of the burden to avoid bitrot is shifted to the implementations, which must receive updates.
2020-12-09T14:37:43Z jackdaniel: what can I tell, your description only fits what I've said at the beginning (of course not literally)
2020-12-09T14:37:45Z mfiano: I guess CL is dead since it hasn't release a new standard
2020-12-09T14:37:50Z jackdaniel: Nilby: clisp does not compile to portable C
2020-12-09T14:38:09Z ioa: what are PLNs?
2020-12-09T14:38:11Z phoe: but it compiles *from* portable C
2020-12-09T14:38:12Z jackdaniel: it is written in portable C (and ECL is not exactly portable - it could be with some push)
2020-12-09T14:38:14Z phoe: ioa: package-local nicknames
2020-12-09T14:38:17Z ioa: thanks
2020-12-09T14:38:31Z phoe: allowing you to e.g. use a:foo instead of alexandria:foo inside your package, and your package only
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2020-12-09T14:38:58Z phoe: these work similarly global nicknames, except they don't pollute the global namespace and therefore do not generate conflicts.
2020-12-09T14:39:01Z ioa: I know what are package local nicknames
2020-12-09T14:39:05Z phoe: oh! sorry
2020-12-09T14:39:05Z ioa: thanks :)
2020-12-09T14:39:16Z aeth: jackdaniel: Let's review. <aeth> ... CLISP died ... <pfdietz> How is CLISP dead? ... <jackdaniel> [strawman of what a "dead" project is, not what I meant to say]
2020-12-09T14:39:23Z ioa: I am just bad with shortcuts
2020-12-09T14:39:33Z ioa: s/shortcuts/abbreviations/
2020-12-09T14:39:35Z Nilby: jackdaniel: the _from_ C is the important thing I think. Compiler output is less likely to be portable.
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2020-12-09T14:40:01Z jackdaniel: my snarky remark sense was: people dub things dead based on activity and I find that silly
2020-12-09T14:40:05Z ioa: np :P
2020-12-09T14:41:06Z aeth: jackdaniel: I'm not sure how I can even in good faith address your strawman. But let me. "from my experience on this channel" so you're just lumping my opinion in with a vague channel sentiment. "everything what is not hosted on github" I only use Gitlab. "and doesn't have at least 3 commits / month is essentially dead" how about 1 release in the past 5-10 years? Even 10 would make CLISP dead.
2020-12-09T14:41:18Z aeth: "stinks and shouldn't be used by anyone" I never said no one should use CLISP.
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2020-12-09T14:41:51Z aeth: "(I don't share that opinion)" I don't, either. You set up a strawman to debunk it. "what undeniably proves, that lisp is dead" and we're talking about CLISP, not CL
2020-12-09T14:41:54Z pfdietz: The niche of compiled from C is important for getting SBCL into Debian, right?
2020-12-09T14:42:20Z jackdaniel: as pointed out above, my remark was snarky - I've spelled out what it meant - I'm getting back to code because I'm not enjoying this discussion
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2020-12-09T14:44:15Z aeth: Let me clarify what I meant: Project "death" from lack of releases has nothing to do with lack of activity. It's death from a thousand papercuts. While Common Lisp is a solid foundation and your *.lisp files won't break, Common Lisp implementations will bitrot over time as they lack non-standard features people start assuming (like PLN) and lack platform support that people start wanting (I'm guessing Apple M1 counts there).
2020-12-09T14:46:51Z aeth: The attitude that a project can have no updates in decades and still run only applies to Common Lisp code itself, not code that relies on FFI and not Common Lisp implementation code, and it's precisely because Common Lisp code shifts the burden to remain relevant and alive to the Common Lisp implementations.
2020-12-09T14:48:22Z Nilby: CLisp won't really die for a long time, since it can be basiclly built from a C compiler, it will live on in various distributions. The self-hosted lisps feel like they really need active development to keep a binary running on current versions of a bunch of platforms.
2020-12-09T14:48:22Z pfdietz: And even in Common Lisp code, rot can occur if you have dependencies to other systems.
2020-12-09T14:48:55Z aeth: pfdietz: Right, even if your dependency switches to package local nicknames and not your project, that will break it on CLISP
2020-12-09T14:49:15Z scymtym: or if the code is non-conforming in ways that implementations didn't catch before but now do
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2020-12-09T14:50:13Z pfdietz: Type declarations in slots in sbcl, for example.
2020-12-09T14:51:10Z pfdietz: Another popular problem source is use of internal sbcl packages.
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2020-12-09T14:52:39Z wsinatra: aeth: at least with SBCL they're actively trying to get apple M1 hardware to port SBCL to the platform
2020-12-09T14:52:39Z aeth: pfdietz: There's still no portable equivalent to sb-unicode that does everything sb-unicode does. You could combine together maybe 2-3 libraries that are slower and have a worse API.
2020-12-09T14:52:39Z scymtym: (i'm not trying to point out flaws in aeth's argument, by the way. they said "portable CL")
2020-12-09T14:52:52Z wsinatra: people are very much trying to maintain and expand the implementations
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2020-12-09T14:53:47Z _death: my prediction is that 2021 will see a clisp release
2020-12-09T14:54:03Z pfdietz: That would be nice.
2020-12-09T14:54:23Z Nilby: Maybe keeping CLisp frozen in time is a good test for portable CL code.
2020-12-09T14:54:30Z aeth: _death: were we poking you a hundred times or does only "_death" poke you?
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2020-12-09T14:55:12Z _death: only _death.. though the indicator is merely a color change
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2020-12-09T14:56:24Z aeth: pfdietz: I guess another way to think about things is that a portable Common Lisp project, even if it doesn't get active updates in 10-20 years, will still run... on *current* Lisp implementations. This is because the dependencies of the project can shift, thus making the project only run on current implementations. But it will still run. Unless, as scymtym said, it wasn't truly portable in the first place.
2020-12-09T14:57:39Z aeth: (Of course, FFI can still break this assumption since those foreign dependencies can break.)
2020-12-09T14:58:35Z pfdietz: I think this also puts constraints on other CL systems one depends on, that they not gratuitously change their APIs.  For example, don't export new symbols from your packages.   This implies that if you want to extend the API of such a system you need to create new packages containing the updates.   Versioned packages?
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2020-12-09T14:59:14Z aeth: pfdietz: Well, generally, the advice to handle that is to not USE, which is why package local nicknames happened in the first place
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2020-12-09T14:59:56Z aeth: Then the only issue is deleting changes, which is why some library ecosystems rely on things like semver (which, technically in CL, would have to be incremented with every new EXPORT as you said).
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2020-12-09T15:02:00Z aeth: ASDF (technically, UIOP) has the mechanisms for this by parsing version strings, but Quicklisp afaik does not.
2020-12-09T15:03:19Z aeth: Afaik, you would need versioned packages to make it work with Quicklisp because Quicklisp wants everything in a dist to be able to be loaded in one image. Either that, or local environments that can have incompatible packages. That would still be messy if you e.g. wanted to depend on two libraries that depended on two versions of uiop
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2020-12-09T15:07:10Z aeth: pfdietz: Thanks for raising the issue of "If semver is used in Common Lisp, should every new export in a package require a new major version in case someone USEs the package even though they shouldn't do that?" that I don't think anyone has thought about before.
2020-12-09T15:07:49Z aeth: I think versioned packages would be a given if you do this, though. Then the semver major version would be tied to the package, so e.g. foobar.3 would correspond to the interface of 3.x.y
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2020-12-09T15:32:45Z nij````` wonders how to master LOOP.
2020-12-09T15:33:04Z phoe: nij`````: that's a lot of backticks
2020-12-09T15:33:13Z phoe: but anyway - just use it, and read the PCL chapter on loop
2020-12-09T15:33:24Z nij`````: I am using erc and it has logged me out too many times.. sorry. I should regain nij.
2020-12-09T15:33:24Z phoe: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
2020-12-09T15:33:54Z nij`````: Should one understand its source code at some point?
2020-12-09T15:33:59Z phoe: no
2020-12-09T15:34:06Z nij`````: Or it is really another language embedded in CL.. so don't bother.
2020-12-09T15:34:09Z phoe: LOOP is one really damn complicated thing
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2020-12-09T15:34:22Z phoe: you can read the SICL LOOP sources but the SBCL LOOP is complicated
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2020-12-09T15:34:26Z phoe: and complex
2020-12-09T15:34:30Z nij`````: OK. Got it!
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2020-12-09T15:34:35Z nij`````: Yeah I tried and failed.
2020-12-09T15:34:42Z phoe: that's because LOOP is a domain specific language embedded in Common Lisp.
2020-12-09T15:34:53Z nij`````: Ah.. I see.
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2020-12-09T15:35:01Z phoe: a language for iterating
2020-12-09T15:35:06Z phoe: and you were essentially peeking at the compiler for that language.
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2020-12-09T15:35:23Z nij`````: I came to lisp with the curiosity of how lisp can beautifully builds it up.
2020-12-09T15:35:34Z phoe: well because it does build it up
2020-12-09T15:35:41Z nij`````: Most other macros seem to be doable. LOOP on the other hand seems to be an anamoly.
2020-12-09T15:35:43Z phoe: but it doesn't mean that the complexity just goes away
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2020-12-09T15:36:07Z phoe: yes, that's because LOOP has tons of loop keywords inside it and it has to support various combinations and uses and use styles of them
2020-12-09T15:36:20Z phoe: it's really kind of a language of its own.
2020-12-09T15:36:21Z aeth: nij`````: DO is simple if you want to learn iteration
2020-12-09T15:36:27Z nij`````: Right..
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2020-12-09T15:36:36Z nij`````: aeth: You mean its source code?
2020-12-09T15:36:38Z phoe: yes, DO and DOLIST and DOTIMES have pretty simple expansions
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2020-12-09T15:36:48Z phoe: their source code too, I presume
2020-12-09T15:36:53Z nij`````: What are other amazing macros? I hope eventually I can learn all the major examples.
2020-12-09T15:37:03Z aeth: nij`````: In most implementations a DOLIST and a DOTIMES can expand into a DO which can expand into a TAGBODY with GO (i.e. contained gotos) with some SETFs and LETs and stuff
2020-12-09T15:37:15Z nij`````: phoe: Isn't do a keyword inside LOOP?
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2020-12-09T15:37:19Z aeth: LOOP on the other hand leaves room for arbitrarily complex implementations since you can always optimize your LOOP more.
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2020-12-09T15:37:29Z aeth: In fact, I doubt any LOOP is as complicated as it could be, e.g. loop unrolling
2020-12-09T15:37:31Z phoe: nij`````: it is, but we mean the macro CL:DO
2020-12-09T15:37:41Z nij`````: phoe aeth : GOT IT!
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2020-12-09T15:38:04Z phoe: still, these are macros, so reading and writing them might be complicated. try to macroexpand/macrostep them as well to get a feeling of what they expand into.
2020-12-09T15:38:05Z aeth: a LOOP that is known to iterate, say, 4 times could unroll in someone's implementation. Technically, DO could, too, but DO is far more likely just to forever stay that simple contained goto
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2020-12-09T15:38:28Z nij`````: But can I say that CL-LOOP is amazing because it first got translated into lisp, and then to machine codes?
2020-12-09T15:38:44Z phoe: not really "translated"
2020-12-09T15:38:46Z nij`````: while in other languages LOOPs are directly translated into lower level codes.
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2020-12-09T15:39:11Z phoe: LOOP is just a big function that grabs a block of Lisp data and produces complex Lisp code that performs iteration
2020-12-09T15:39:25Z nij`````: Beautiful.
2020-12-09T15:39:27Z phoe: and that function is called at compilation-time, or more precisely, at macroexpansion-time
2020-12-09T15:39:29Z nij`````: I'm stunned.
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2020-12-09T15:39:47Z aeth: Common Lisp basically has a programmable compiler
2020-12-09T15:39:48Z phoe: and the result of that function is spliced into the surrounding raw lisp code, and then compiled.
2020-12-09T15:39:54Z aeth: Not just macros, you even have EVAL-WHEN
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2020-12-09T15:40:07Z nij`````: aeth: Could you elaborate?
2020-12-09T15:40:08Z aeth: There are a bunch of known stages that can run arbitrary code (and who knows how many unknown stages)
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2020-12-09T15:40:22Z nij`````: What's about EVAL-WHEN?
2020-12-09T15:40:25Z aeth: eval-when has some... compile, load, execute: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm
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2020-12-09T15:40:49Z aeth: the reader macro #. is used to evaluate at read time, e.g. #.(+ 1 1)
2020-12-09T15:41:05Z aeth: there are probably a few more known stages
2020-12-09T15:41:16Z nij`````: What do you mean by known stages?
2020-12-09T15:41:46Z aeth: The standard specifies some compiler stages because you can run arbitrary code during them. Of course, this doesn't stop compilers from adding their own, which I guess would be more "substages" than stages.
2020-12-09T15:41:53Z phoe: nij`````: stages of working on Lisp code, also known at times
2020-12-09T15:42:42Z phoe: read-time is when code is read; compilation- and macroexpansion-time is when code is compiled and macroexpanded; load-time is when code is loaded; execution-time is when code is executed
2020-12-09T15:43:11Z phoe: there's some other smaller ones, too, but they are only relevant sometimes
2020-12-09T15:43:32Z aeth: outside of EVAL-WHEN + the hyperspec, "execute time" or "execution time" is probably called "run time" or "runtime"
2020-12-09T15:44:29Z nij`````: oh there are so many
2020-12-09T15:44:46Z nij`````: I thought it's only macroexpand + run..
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2020-12-09T15:44:58Z phoe: nope, it's more complex
2020-12-09T15:45:01Z nij`````: Will look into it..
2020-12-09T15:45:06Z aeth: In general, if you can do something at compile time instead of runtime, you probably should, but compilers are probably smart enough to do it automatically most of the time. E.g. In an ancient, non-optimizing Lisp you might do #.(+ 1 2 3) to get 6 (this'll be at read time, not compile time, but it's still doing it in advance) but these days, you shouldn't do that because any decent compiler will turn (+ 1 2 3) into 6
2020-12-09T15:46:34Z nij`````: read -> macroexpand -> compile -> load -> execute?
2020-12-09T15:47:02Z nij`````: run = execute?
2020-12-09T15:47:41Z phoe: nij`````: most of the time, yes, but these can also happen independently of one another
2020-12-09T15:47:50Z phoe: and compile/load can not be there
2020-12-09T15:48:03Z phoe: because if you load precompiled files then the compile-time is null, it was already done
2020-12-09T15:48:25Z nij`````: Or for example when I'm working with repl?
2020-12-09T15:48:31Z phoe: and if you don't load precompiled files and only e.g. call COMPILE on some forms, hmmmm
2020-12-09T15:48:39Z phoe: does this invoke load-time logic? I don't recall
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2020-12-09T15:49:08Z phoe: nij`````: it's a bit more involved because usually when you work with the REPL then whatever you type is fed to the compiler and only then executed
2020-12-09T15:49:41Z nij`````: And different cl implementations have different behaviors. Is that correct? Eg. SBCL and ECL might behave differently?
2020-12-09T15:50:12Z phoe: hmmm
2020-12-09T15:50:20Z phoe: I need to re-read this part of the spec
2020-12-09T15:51:01Z phoe: usually the behavior is consistent between implementations
2020-12-09T15:51:39Z nij`````: I see.
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2020-12-09T15:53:14Z phoe: there's a post at https://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html that describes this thing
2020-12-09T15:53:30Z phoe: and in fact standard CL programmers only need one form of eval-when
2020-12-09T15:53:44Z phoe: namely, eval-always, which is (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...)
2020-12-09T15:54:28Z phoe: everything else is either redundant or completely unnecesssary unless you are writing your own programming language that compiles down to Lisp, or unless you are dealing with the implementation.
2020-12-09T15:55:54Z aeth: yes
2020-12-09T15:57:12Z aeth: in general, you see (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) when you're defining a function that's directly used in DEFMACRO (rather than indirectly used, by being in the resulting expansion)
2020-12-09T15:57:23Z aeth: You can avoid this if you put it into a separate file that's loaded first, though.
2020-12-09T15:57:53Z nij`````: Woah quite involving.
2020-12-09T15:58:00Z nij`````: I will read that later.
2020-12-09T15:58:29Z aeth: It's actually very basic imo. It really makes macro writing very easy. (defmacro foo (a b c) (actually-implement-the-macro a b c))
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2020-12-09T15:58:58Z aeth: Then ACTUALLY-IMPLEMENT-THE-MACRO is just an ordinary, unit-testable/REPL-testable function that takes in input and returns some lists as output.
2020-12-09T16:00:00Z aeth: It gets complicated if you want it to return advanced objects because then you probably need a MAKE-LOAD-FORM defined for those objects, but in general you'd just be returning things like `(foo ,a ,b ,c) ; that example is so trivial that it shouldn't be its own function
2020-12-09T16:00:15Z nij`````: Oh! That's how many macros are defined? Using functions..
2020-12-09T16:00:41Z nij`````: Why wouldn't one use DEFUN in the first place?
2020-12-09T16:00:45Z aeth: In general, a macro is just quoted s-expressions in, quasiquoted s-expressions out. So the more you move into helper functions, the more straightforward it is
2020-12-09T16:00:47Z phoe: nij`````: evaluation rules.
2020-12-09T16:00:56Z phoe: have you ever tried implementing your own IF using a function?
2020-12-09T16:01:07Z nij`````: NO! I should do that.
2020-12-09T16:01:10Z phoe: yes, please try it before going further
2020-12-09T16:01:23Z nij`````: Great exercise. Implement IF as a macro and as a function.
2020-12-09T16:01:26Z nij`````: Thanks :)
2020-12-09T16:01:30Z phoe: in particular, (if ... (print 42) (print 24)) - check what is printed and check what is returned.
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2020-12-09T16:01:38Z phoe: and then figure out why I told you to check those.
2020-12-09T16:01:47Z phoe: just, you know, use the symbol MY-IF instead of IF.
2020-12-09T16:01:51Z nij`````: yep
2020-12-09T16:01:58Z aeth: you can just do this... (%if (lambda () condition) (lambda () if-true-branch) (lambda () if-false-branch))
2020-12-09T16:02:11Z nij`````: Eyes closed
2020-12-09T16:02:21Z beach: Oh, this is "confuse the newbie" time.
2020-12-09T16:02:21Z aeth: But then you could just make an IF macro that does this: `(%if (lambda () ,condition) (lambda () ,if-true-branch) (lambda () ,if-false-branch))
2020-12-09T16:02:22Z phoe: aeth: hey cmon don't cheat
2020-12-09T16:02:38Z nij`````: I won't cheat ;)
2020-12-09T16:02:47Z phoe: let nij figure it out
2020-12-09T16:02:49Z aeth: phoe: I mean, higher order functions make macros unnecessary, but they're not particularly clean :-)
2020-12-09T16:03:18Z aeth: phoe: ah, sorry, I missed the context that you want to see if nij````` can do it
2020-12-09T16:03:23Z phoe: yes
2020-12-09T16:03:26Z phoe: that's the whole point :D
2020-12-09T16:03:33Z aeth: I thought it was rhetorical
2020-12-09T16:03:34Z nij`````: (I'd also like to come back to this point too: higher order functions make macros unnecessary.)
2020-12-09T16:03:37Z aeth: like "good luck making IF a function"
2020-12-09T16:03:50Z beach: nij`````: It isn't true.
2020-12-09T16:04:26Z beach: nij`````: Macros are used mainly to introduce new syntax.
2020-12-09T16:04:26Z phoe: "higher order functions make macros unnecessary"
2020-12-09T16:04:28Z aeth: nij`````: You can do almost everything with LAMBDA that you'd want to do with a reasonable macro (delay evaluation), but it's not going to look clean at all.
2020-12-09T16:04:30Z phoe: that's what java programmers say
2020-12-09T16:04:37Z phoe: and see where they are
2020-12-09T16:04:39Z nij`````: LOL
2020-12-09T16:04:40Z aeth: Macros make it look cleaner, and can even expand to the higher order function
2020-12-09T16:05:07Z phoe: they have 100% of their "functions" and 0% of the clean syntax.
2020-12-09T16:05:34Z beach: aeth: OK, so here is a challenge for you.  Write a version of LOOP that uses higher-order functions rather than a macro.
2020-12-09T16:05:34Z phoe: as someone who recently reimplemented the condition system in Java I wholeheartedly hate the syntactical hell that is required to get a simple damn handler-case to work there
2020-12-09T16:06:00Z nij`````: phoe: sad
2020-12-09T16:06:10Z nij`````: Why don't people just use lisp..
2020-12-09T16:06:18Z phoe: yes, that's so sad, alexa play land of lisp music video
2020-12-09T16:07:06Z nij`````: Alexa refuses as it is written in JAVA."
2020-12-09T16:07:25Z aeth: beach: if you let me use dynamic variables (or a hash table!) instead of lexical variables, then it's very doable, but not pretty
2020-12-09T16:07:38Z ck_: I see the backticks have become more plentiful. Are you making progress with your endeavours, nij````` ?
2020-12-09T16:07:41Z phoe: aeth: implement dynavars yourself
2020-12-09T16:08:01Z aeth: ck_: even two `` is a nightmare to remember how , interacts with it
2020-12-09T16:08:10Z aeth: I can't imagine seeing ````` in real code
2020-12-09T16:08:26Z beach: aeth: I think you are missing the point.  Macros are used to introduce new syntax.  If you are writing something that makes the use "not pretty" you haven't accomplished the task of making the macro unnecessary by using higher-order functions.
2020-12-09T16:09:01Z nij`````: OK I will hide this buffer and focus on writing myfun/if.
2020-12-09T16:09:10Z nij`````: You all are too fun to talk with.
2020-12-09T16:09:13Z nij`````: Bye.
2020-12-09T16:09:16Z aeth: beach: I guess I was unclear. My point is that you can do the same computations with a bunch of LAMBDAs, but the syntax will be uglier.
2020-12-09T16:09:48Z aeth: (It'll also probably be less efficient because the compiler probably isn't expecting code written in this style, but that's an implementation issue.)
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2020-12-09T16:11:06Z aeth: (Well, I suppose some things, perhaps even with a LOOP-equivalent, would have to interpret some things at runtime that could be done at macroexpansion time, too.)
2020-12-09T16:11:24Z beach: aeth: Two things.  1. There is no such thing as "a LAMBDA"  2.  You don't even need anonymous functions to accomplish any computation.  Common Lisp is Turing complete without anonymous functions.
2020-12-09T16:11:35Z nij`````: I'm back.... Wait! When writing 'myfun/if, am I allowed to use 'if?
2020-12-09T16:11:44Z phoe: yes
2020-12-09T16:11:54Z phoe: it's the external interface that matters
2020-12-09T16:12:10Z nij`````: LOL I thought one can do it without the special form IF.
2020-12-09T16:12:14Z phoe: it's the fact that it is a function instead of a macro
2020-12-09T16:12:16Z nij`````: That would be awesome.
2020-12-09T16:12:28Z beach: nij`````: Make sure you test it like this: (my-if <some-condition> (print "yes") (print "no"))
2020-12-09T16:12:28Z nij`````: OK lemme keep doing it.
2020-12-09T16:12:37Z nij`````: Sure
2020-12-09T16:12:41Z phoe: I mean, you can do that, but then things become a real hassle
2020-12-09T16:12:54Z phoe: because you dig all the way down into lambda calculus
2020-12-09T16:13:00Z phoe: and that's beyond the scope of this exercise
2020-12-09T16:14:18Z aeth: beach: Afaik, #2 is often only true if you write an interpreter, though.
2020-12-09T16:14:50Z beach: Oh, so a language without anonymous functions can't be Turing complete?
2020-12-09T16:14:53Z beach: That's news to me.
2020-12-09T16:15:42Z nij`````: DONE, and TESTED: https://bpa.st/OM6Q
2020-12-09T16:15:50Z nij`````: Did I cheat by using EVAL?
2020-12-09T16:16:15Z phoe: 1) eval is not required there
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2020-12-09T16:16:21Z phoe: and it will break
2020-12-09T16:16:29Z _death: nij: tested how?
2020-12-09T16:16:34Z phoe: (myfun/if 'foo (print "yes") (print "no"))
2020-12-09T16:17:23Z phoe: the symbol FOO is a true value, because it isn't NIL, so (if 'foo (print "yes") (print "no")) will work correctly
2020-12-09T16:17:26Z phoe: whereas your won't
2020-12-09T16:17:27Z nij`````: OH deer.
2020-12-09T16:17:36Z aeth: beach: Turing equivalents is only about what they're capable of computing. You're still capable of computing the same amount of things, but there's no guarantee as to the *efficiency* of doing so. I can definitely imagine a language without lambdas, higher order functions, macros, etc., where the only way to get equivalent behavior would be to interpret a sequence of commands and that would still be "an equivalent computation".
2020-12-09T16:17:46Z aeth: s/equivalents/equivalence/
2020-12-09T16:17:53Z beach: aeth: But that is exactly what you said.
2020-12-09T16:18:19Z beach: "My point is that you can do the same computations with a bunch of LAMBDAs, but the syntax will be uglier."
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2020-12-09T16:19:11Z beach: aeth: And I am saying, you can do the same computation without any "lambdas" whatsoever"
2020-12-09T16:19:33Z aeth: Yes, if you don't have lambdas (or good lambdas, in the case of Python) you can still do named internal functions (in the case of Python) and if you don't have that you still have other hacks you can do, and falling back on that you can just interpret a command language or something.
2020-12-09T16:19:35Z nij`````: Sigh. I don't know how to solve the 'foo problem.
2020-12-09T16:19:45Z phoe: nij`````: why even use eval
2020-12-09T16:20:21Z nij`````: because each argument is a list to be evaluated.
2020-12-09T16:20:26Z phoe: wait what
2020-12-09T16:20:36Z phoe: FOO is not a list
2020-12-09T16:20:40Z aeth: beach: My point, which was apparently poorly described, was that lambdas in higher order functions will give you the same functionality of essentially all macros you see in practice. This doesn't mean that there aren't other, even less elegant, ways of doing it.
2020-12-09T16:20:54Z nij`````: phoe: oh wait I'm wrong. HOld on.
2020-12-09T16:23:07Z nij`````: How about this? https://bpa.st/FBLA
2020-12-09T16:23:09Z beach: aeth: So now we qualify with "essentially all macros you see in practice".  That is very different from "higher order functions make macros unnecessary" which is what I was reacting to.
2020-12-09T16:24:21Z aeth: beach: Higher order functions *do* make macros unnecessary, but they probably don't give you the API that you want and in some cases you might have to resort to dynamic instead of lexical variables. The implicit point in my original statement is that macros exist for syntactic sugar.
2020-12-09T16:24:34Z beach: *sigh* I give up.
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2020-12-09T16:24:47Z cl-arthur: you can hammer in nails using a very old piece of dry cake, but using a hammer is pretty preferable.
2020-12-09T16:24:49Z phoe: uh guys you are actually agreeing with one another
2020-12-09T16:24:50Z aeth: Although you could put an asterisk by that and say that maybe sometimes the only straightforward way to maintain lexical scope is with a macro...
2020-12-09T16:24:55Z jackdaniel: a keyboard with 0 and 1 do make programming languages unnecessary, because machines interpret binary code
2020-12-09T16:24:59Z jackdaniel: that is this kind of argument
2020-12-09T16:25:00Z beach: nij`````: And did you test it?
2020-12-09T16:25:04Z nij`````: YES
2020-12-09T16:25:09Z beach: On what?
2020-12-09T16:25:20Z nij`````: O I should have posted. Hang on..
2020-12-09T16:25:53Z nij`````: https://bpa.st/2T3Q
2020-12-09T16:26:06Z beach: nij`````: You were told to test it on something like (myfun/if (= *print-base* 10) (print "yes") (print "no"))
2020-12-09T16:26:16Z aeth: jackdaniel: A better analogy is probably that you can get by with a keyboard that doesn't have a numpad instead of a full keyboard... It's not going to be as nice in every case, but lots of people do it.
2020-12-09T16:26:34Z beach: nij`````: And what was the result.
2020-12-09T16:26:45Z beach: nij`````: You don't test the code by just typing the test.
2020-12-09T16:26:46Z phoe: nij`````: good! now test on (if t 42 (loop))
2020-12-09T16:26:53Z beach: nij`````: You have to run it too.
2020-12-09T16:26:57Z aeth: jackdaniel: Or perhaps "compose key" would be a better keyboard analogy because it really is easier just to type é instead of having to insert the character through some GUI and copy and paste.
2020-12-09T16:27:06Z phoe: and test that with your my-if
2020-12-09T16:27:11Z nij`````: beach: I passed that test too.. lemme include it.
2020-12-09T16:27:13Z jackdaniel: OK, so what? if you use the numpad because you type a lot of numbers, it is worse. do you argue, that a programming language without macros like common lisp is possible?
2020-12-09T16:27:16Z jackdaniel: yes, IT IS :-)
2020-12-09T16:27:58Z jackdaniel: is it possible to type a program on a screen keyboard on your phone? YES
2020-12-09T16:28:25Z nij`````: phoe: UH NOOOOO! I'm suck into a infinite loop :(
2020-12-09T16:28:56Z ck_: how could this HAPPEN I'm not good with computer
2020-12-09T16:29:00Z beach: nij`````: And your tests can't have passed.  They must have printed both branches, which is not what you expect from IF, now is it?
2020-12-09T16:29:21Z phoe: nij`````: well
2020-12-09T16:29:29Z phoe: the original IF doesn't loop
2020-12-09T16:29:42Z phoe: (cl:if t 42 (loop)) terminates and returns 42
2020-12-09T16:29:56Z aeth: jackdaniel: Not only is it possible that you should use a language without macros (or, even better, use Common Lisp, but restrict yourself from using DEFMACRO)... you actually should do it for a while. This will motivate you to use and appreciate macros in the future.
2020-12-09T16:30:20Z nij`````: beach: OH you're right. I read the output from the minibuffer, thinking I was right.
2020-12-09T16:30:22Z phoe: agreed, I programmed in Java
2020-12-09T16:30:24Z beach: nij`````: Actually, this is too trivial for #lisp, and perhaps even for #clschool.  It should be in #basic-programming-language-facts.
2020-12-09T16:30:28Z phoe: I appreciate macros a lot
2020-12-09T16:30:47Z phoe: beach: that's sorta what #clschool is though
2020-12-09T16:30:54Z beach: I guess.
2020-12-09T16:30:55Z phoe: the difference between functions and macros is not trivial
2020-12-09T16:31:03Z beach: Let's take it to #clschool then.
2020-12-09T16:31:04Z phoe: so I wouldn't call it a basic programming language fact
2020-12-09T16:31:26Z jackdaniel: aeth: I don't understand what you said above. I understand words, but not the whole thing.
2020-12-09T16:31:34Z beach: This is the difference between a function and a special operator, and that is indeed basic programming stuff.
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2020-12-09T16:32:33Z phoe: jackdaniel: I understood it as "if you program in e.g. Java for a long while, then you'll get so tired of its inability to abstract away syntax that you're going to really love it when you go back to e.g. lisp where abstracting away syntax is completely normal"
2020-12-09T16:32:33Z aeth: jackdaniel: The point of saying "macros are, technically speaking, not a necessary feature to get things done in Common Lisp" (which is probably what I should've just said) doesn't mean avoid macros entirely. It means, go ahead, try to avoid macros where macros would make sense. Try it. Then you will see why they're there.
2020-12-09T16:32:53Z aeth: s/macros/defining macros/
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2020-12-09T16:34:31Z jackdaniel: that could be said about many things (i.e calling other functions, or using iteration instead of tagbody); saying that tagbody makes loop unnecessary boils down to saying that you may be a programmer without using physical keyboard
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2020-12-09T16:34:49Z jackdaniel: technically correct, but that's the worst kind of correct
2020-12-09T16:35:41Z _death: siri, 10 goto 10
2020-12-09T16:36:01Z phoe: (with-siri () (tagbody 10 (go 10)))
2020-12-09T16:37:54Z ck_: _death: :D
2020-12-09T16:38:13Z ck_: "ok, going to 10! going to 10! going to 10! ..."
2020-12-09T16:38:41Z aeth: jackdaniel: I mean, yes. That's a good idea. Do it. Write one program with only TAGBODY for iteration. Every programmer should do it exactly once.
2020-12-09T16:38:56Z ck_: maybe we should put collective effort into program jmc, the digital assistant
2020-12-09T16:39:11Z phoe: actually for very simple state machines TAGBODY is sorta nice
2020-12-09T16:39:12Z ck_: aeth: *macroexpands a loop form*
2020-12-09T16:39:14Z aeth: It's like how so often in math classes they make you do something the slow way before introducing the shortcut.
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2020-12-09T16:42:37Z aeth: jackdaniel: I think that you think that I think that these programs should be used in production or something. No. They're just exercises.
2020-12-09T16:44:26Z aeth: In fact, exercise 2 after "write a program with only TAGBODY for iteration" should be "now write macros that expand to those tagbodies but don't use preexisting iteration macros"
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2020-12-09T16:44:34Z aeth: I think we're collaboratively writing a Lisp textbook!
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2020-12-09T17:09:18Z pve: Has anyone ever tried to index the #lisp logs? It could sometimes be pretty neat to be able to search them before asking certain questions.
2020-12-09T17:09:52Z nij: There's log here?!
2020-12-09T17:10:02Z nij: OH great T_T
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2020-12-09T17:10:32Z nij: Then I probably shouldn't say as many trash words here as in #emacs.. sorry for my deed.
2020-12-09T17:10:44Z Gnuxie[m]: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp
2020-12-09T17:11:17Z aeth: #lispcafe is where you swear
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2020-12-09T17:22:07Z flip214: aeth: wait, is this the Tea shop?
2020-12-09T17:23:48Z aeth: no, it only sells Lisps
2020-12-09T17:24:09Z aeth: want to buy a Lisp? https://franz.com/products/allegrocl/
2020-12-09T17:24:11Z flip214: but at least with a smile, I hope
2020-12-09T17:24:19Z flip214: no thanks, I already have three
2020-12-09T17:26:04Z defunkydrummer: flip214: does any of your three lisps you already have at home, support AllegroCache?
2020-12-09T17:26:18Z defunkydrummer: everybody needs a little AllegroCache to spice up the morning
2020-12-09T17:26:29Z defunkydrummer: perhaps you haven't realized it yet
2020-12-09T17:26:45Z defunkydrummer: oops... this isn-t lispcafe... sorry
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2020-12-09T19:25:30Z phoe: Xach: turns out he's not really a person of only the Old Ways
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2020-12-09T20:32:57Z pfdietz: (reads discussion of LOOP)  And then there's ITERATE.
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2020-12-09T20:33:59Z pfdietz: Which I disliked because it did not work with the shortcuts COVER takes.
2020-12-09T20:34:35Z phoe: does it work now?
2020-12-09T20:35:51Z pfdietz: I forked it and modified it (and my fork of COVER) to work together.
2020-12-09T20:36:16Z aeth: iirc, I didn't like ITERATE when I looked into it because the clauses are actually real
2020-12-09T20:36:32Z aeth: it doesn't really work well with the anti-USE modern culture of CL
2020-12-09T20:36:56Z aeth: Using keywords like (foo (:for whatever :in bar) ...) with DESTRUCTURING-BINDs would be much friendlier, except in extending it.
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2020-12-09T20:37:35Z aeth: I guess with a one-char package local nickname it would be marginally less annoying to use
2020-12-09T20:38:38Z aeth: That is, it's this part that I don't like: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/iterate/iterate/-/blob/b6f7a48253c2a28293fbddc377c98f92abdad538/package.lisp#L11
2020-12-09T20:38:40Z pfdietz: https://github.com/pfdietz/iterate/tree/cover
2020-12-09T20:39:09Z aeth: I mean, it really wouldn't be that bad if you even used non-keywords for extensions and keywords for built-ins since you're probably not going to use many extensions, but there are a ton of built-ins.
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2020-12-09T20:41:01Z aeth: pfdietz: what's the diff?
2020-12-09T20:41:17Z aeth: oh wait, I see how to do it. https://github.com/pfdietz/iterate/compare/cover
2020-12-09T20:41:26Z aeth: surprisingly, not much
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2020-12-09T20:42:14Z pfdietz: Basically, converting something to a generic function that other systems can extend with new methods.
2020-12-09T20:42:56Z pfdietz: And the extension to COVER:
2020-12-09T20:42:58Z pfdietz: https://github.com/pfdietz/cover/tree/iterate
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2020-12-09T20:45:16Z pfdietz: I want something where if I load system FOO, and also system BAR, then it automatically loads a system say FOO+BAR needed to make them work together, but that would not make sense if FOO and BAR are not already present.
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2020-12-09T20:46:42Z phoe: kinda sounds like an asdf extension?... I mean, new system class, load-op :around method on that system class that checks if other systems are also loaded and then loads their common dependency
2020-12-09T20:49:58Z aeth: That would be incredibly useful for me, but only if it doesn't have to exist in the same .asd file. That is, loading Airship Scheme + loading FOO could load a compatability layer between the two. Which would happen upon loading the second system if the first has been loaded (either order).
2020-12-09T20:50:47Z phoe: aeth: it wouldn't need to live in the same file
2020-12-09T20:51:04Z phoe: the two would need to have some sort of common system class
2020-12-09T20:51:26Z phoe: and metadata stored in either/both systems that allows the custom load-op to load more stuff.
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2020-12-09T20:53:49Z aeth: phoe: Having one of the two systems have to know about the compatability system with the other is less useful than anyone being able to write a compatability layer, even if it's not officially part of either. There might be some potential for abuse in a wide-open software repository (like Ultralisp?) but not the main Quicklisp dist.
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2020-12-09T20:54:36Z aeth: phoe: But I think that the most important part would be that the compatability system can be loaded no matter which order the two systems that need compatability are loaded in.
2020-12-09T20:55:06Z phoe: aeth: I mean loading FOO then BAR should trigger loading FOO+BAR on the last load
2020-12-09T20:55:12Z phoe: I mean when loading BAR
2020-12-09T20:55:27Z phoe: same if I load BAR first and then FOO - this second load also loads FOO+BAR
2020-12-09T20:56:08Z pve: there used to be something called asdf-system-connections that may have done something like this
2020-12-09T20:56:33Z pfdietz: That sounds familiar.
2020-12-09T20:56:50Z phoe: "Note: this system is no longer being maintained. Use Quicklisp!"
2020-12-09T20:56:56Z phoe: wait a second, quicklisp doesn't solve this problem
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2020-12-09T20:57:45Z phoe: but yeah, https://github.com/gwkkwg/asdf-System-Connections
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2020-12-09T20:57:53Z phoe: this seems "sorta fresh"
2020-12-09T20:58:09Z Bike: 63/100 on the tomatometer
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2020-12-09T21:18:04Z rpg: ASDF system connections is morbid and should not be used
2020-12-09T21:18:33Z phoe: uh oh
2020-12-09T21:19:10Z rpg: Note that you could have the FOO + BAR system definition use CHANGE-CLASS on FOO and or BAR to make them be a kind of system that would know to trigger loading of the compatibility layer
2020-12-09T21:20:22Z rpg: I am in the middle of a system update, BTW, so I will be vanishing in a moment, and will lose any responses over the next 10 minutes or so....
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2020-12-09T21:21:17Z pfdietz: Now there's an idea.
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2020-12-09T21:32:10Z Xach: phoe: which old ways? who?
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2020-12-09T21:42:09Z pve: asdf-system-connections was weird because it always triggered a recompile of something even if all fasls were up-to-date
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2020-12-09T22:12:40Z ebrasca: Hi
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2020-12-09T23:48:43Z matta_: Anybody available to help me decipher an error I get when compiling some code I found on github: Objects of type FUNCTION can't be dumped into fasl files.
2020-12-09T23:48:55Z matta_: The error occurs expanding a call to the OR-PARSER* macro on https://github.com/kyledewey/cl-parser-combinator-example/blob/master/combinators.lisp
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2020-12-09T23:49:34Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think there should be a comma before #'or-parser (ditto for #'and-parser)
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2020-12-09T23:50:32Z no-defun-allowed: Otherwise you would expand to something like (funcall #<function> ...) which isn't easy to dump to a file.
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2020-12-09T23:52:26Z matta_: no-defun-allowed: Thanks, that fixed the compile, and it makes sense since those weren't args to the macro.  I'm not even sure what a leading comma applied to a non-arg within a macro really means!
2020-12-09T23:52:49Z no-defun-allowed: It evaluates as per usual.
2020-12-09T23:53:45Z no-defun-allowed: The rules of evaluation do not change in a macro body; look at what `(funcall ,#'cons a b) evaluates to.
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2020-12-09T23:56:22Z matta_: What is the difference between #'CONS and #<FUNCTION CONS>?  I assume #'CONS names the function referenced by the CONS symbol, and #<FUNCTION CONS> is that function?
2020-12-09T23:56:48Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, one evaluates to the other.
2020-12-09T23:57:33Z matta_: Great, thanks!  I appreciate it.
2020-12-09T23:57:41Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think there is a benefit to trying to splice in a function object into a macroexpansion.
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2020-12-09T23:57:52Z White_Flame: #'CONS expands to (FUNCTION CONS), which is a form (ie a list of 2 symbols).  Anything #<...> is an unreadable object being printed, namely the actual function object here
2020-12-09T23:59:02Z White_Flame: what you return from macros should be source code forms
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2020-12-10T00:00:14Z White_Flame: and the comma is just an escape from the quoting, regardless if it's an arg or not
2020-12-10T00:00:49Z White_Flame: (let ((a 3)) `(1 a ,a)) => (1 A 3)
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2020-12-10T00:02:22Z matta_: Yep, makes sense.  I'm new to common lisp -- all my lisp experience is Emacs Lisp, where I learned only the minimum to get by.  I'm not yet at the point where ,#'cons jumps out as probably wrong.
2020-12-10T00:02:52Z White_Flame: no problem.  Also there's #clschool which focuses on beginner questions
2020-12-10T00:03:27Z matta_: oh, I'll check that out.
2020-12-10T00:03:52Z White_Flame: helpful if this place is busier, as such questions could get lost here
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2020-12-10T01:01:16Z nij: Hello! I started writing a little cl script two days ago. It has been fun :D
2020-12-10T01:01:42Z nij: I wouldn't call it a project, but it has evolved to ~150 lines, and started to get messy..
2020-12-10T01:02:04Z nij: How would you repackage it? Should I make it a full fledge cl package?
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2020-12-10T02:07:23Z lotuseater: hm now nij is out, i would've told him about cl-launch
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2020-12-10T02:48:39Z ldbeth: good morning
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2020-12-10T03:35:19Z Hexstream: Please support the Common Lisp Revival 2020 Fundraiser!!! https://github.com/sponsors/Hexstream (Deadline is 10 december 2020 inclusive!)
2020-12-10T03:35:25Z Hexstream: Also see this hilarious thread: https://github.com/Hexstream/sponsors.hexstreamsoft.com/issues/1
2020-12-10T03:36:33Z oni-on-ion: hi hex. im the dude with the confusing email. sorry for the bother and thx for the response. but i may be continuing with ocaml instead, professionally. cl in sidelines
2020-12-10T03:36:47Z Hexstream: Alright, no problem.
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2020-12-10T04:01:53Z no-defun-allowed: Hexstream: can I have money for CLOSOS
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2020-12-10T04:11:22Z Fare: Hexstream, I love you, and thanks for reminding me that I'm not the most autistic programmer around.
2020-12-10T04:11:37Z Hexstream: Hahaha! Thank you!
2020-12-10T04:11:52Z Fare: But I fear your mental model of other people and how economics works is even wronger than mine.
2020-12-10T04:12:07Z Hexstream: That may be.
2020-12-10T04:12:40Z Fare: I'm all in in my startup right now, and don't have time (or money) at all for CL (indeed, I jumped ship to Gerbil).
2020-12-10T04:12:51Z Fare: But I hope you're successful.
2020-12-10T04:13:02Z Fare: (Though I suspect it will take a change in attitude)
2020-12-10T04:13:12Z Hexstream: Thank you! What an endorsement!!
2020-12-10T04:14:48Z Hexstream: I'm hoping to help bring the Common Lisp community to a dignified state worthy of your presence. ;)
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2020-12-10T04:14:52Z jeosol: Fare:  Hard to catch you here I guess, perhaps time zone
2020-12-10T04:15:05Z jeosol: Fare: the startup is also Gerbil powered?
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2020-12-10T04:16:29Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-12-10T04:16:39Z Hexstream: Wazzup! Long time no see!
2020-12-10T04:16:46Z lotuseater: good morning beach :)
2020-12-10T04:17:13Z jeosol: Good morning beach
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2020-12-10T04:23:29Z Hexstream: beach: By the way, there seems to have been a pretty unfortunate misunderstanding. I asked if you wanted to redirect your old CLOS MOP spec version to mine in large part to relieve you of the burden of continuing to maintain your older version, which some (presumably also yourself at the time) may now consider to be obsolete.
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2020-12-10T04:24:59Z Hexstream: Let's just say I have seen some pretty hilarious misinterpretations or misrepresentations of my reasonable offer.
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2020-12-10T04:32:04Z Fare: jeosol, yes, the startup is Gerbil powered... see channel #gerbil-scheme for more discussions, I suppose.
2020-12-10T04:33:17Z beach: Hexstream: I see.  Not important anymore.
2020-12-10T04:33:33Z Hexstream: Fare: I would need to see your list of "conditions" for you to return to Common Lisp, sometime. In fact, I would need to see that for everyone who left Common Lisp, basically.
2020-12-10T04:34:18Z Fare: Hexstream, everyone has different conditions.
2020-12-10T04:34:21Z Hexstream: beach: If it's important to you, that's enough for me. I'm not sure it should still be the "default", though.
2020-12-10T04:34:49Z Fare: I suppose that the community being unable and/or unwilling to evolve the base language is a big limitation.
2020-12-10T04:34:58Z Hexstream: Fare: Exactly, I want to help the most important ones globally.
2020-12-10T04:35:04Z aeth: Everyone has different conditions, but there's only one Common Lisp condition system.
2020-12-10T04:35:40Z Fare: CL is great, but a better language would introduce simplifications, with a backward-compatible upgrade path. And that's not going to happen.
2020-12-10T04:36:26Z Fare: The "community" is mainly made of lone wolves. I'm not going to cast stone at the other lone wolves, but that's it.
2020-12-10T04:37:18Z Fare: People with high tolerance for accumulated cruft, low tolerance to the costs of switching, low need for interaction, and often poor skills at interaction.
2020-12-10T04:37:36Z Fare: a lot of superproductive people, but with low synergy.
2020-12-10T04:37:57Z Fare: Nothing that you can help with by yourself, or anyone.
2020-12-10T04:39:12Z Fare: Bringing newbies to cl packages and pathnames and systems and case-converting symbols and high impedance mismatch to the underlying Unix or Windows OS? Why would you do that?
2020-12-10T04:39:28Z Fare: And if there are no newbies, it's the same old wolves.
2020-12-10T04:39:37Z Hexstream: Well, I do have a big first step on my roadmap for enabling us to evolve the language. https://roadmap.hexstreamsoft.com/far/#public-domain-spiritual-successor-to-the-clhs
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2020-12-10T04:45:31Z fengshaun: is there a library which can parse a datetime string with an alternative timezone? neither local-time nor cl-date-time-parser allow me to specify an alternate timezone when parsing datetime strings
2020-12-10T04:45:40Z fengshaun: they just assume everything is in my local timezone
2020-12-10T04:46:16Z fengshaun: All times I have are in UTC, but it's not specified in the timestring
2020-12-10T04:46:27Z oni-on-ion: i can make a very succinct list.
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2020-12-10T04:48:10Z edgar-rft: fengshaun: you're probably looking for this -> https://common-lisp.net/project/local-time/
2020-12-10T04:48:18Z White_Flame: you could append the zone to the timestring before decode?
2020-12-10T04:48:26Z oni-on-ion: but to top the list of Pros: would be the community. i can get help or help others with CL a lot quicker and more often than most other "medium-popular" platforms. which are generally mailing list, web forums, in person in academic setting, or simply overpopulated.
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2020-12-10T04:48:56Z fengshaun: edgar-rft, I already have, even manually set *default-timezone* to +utc-zone+ to no avail
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2020-12-10T04:49:46Z fengshaun: White_Flame, I guess I could, but then formatting is going to be messed up if someone happens to have appended the timezone
2020-12-10T04:50:04Z White_Flame: yep, was going to mention, but it is fairly obviuos
2020-12-10T04:50:08Z fengshaun: ideally I'd want timezone from the timestring, but if not present, then use the timezone I specify
2020-12-10T04:50:19Z Hexstream: Fare: Frankly, we could make Common Lisp even more powerful with just a few simple changes. This way, each lone wolf could do even more alone. ;P
2020-12-10T04:50:21Z Hexstream: ((foo bar) baz) == (funcall (foo bar) baz) would really rock...
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2020-12-10T04:50:59Z no-defun-allowed: Is it really that bothersome to type funcall?
2020-12-10T04:51:10Z oni-on-ion: is this like CL21 ? if its again another lone-wolf project, how can it go anywhere beyond dreamland ?
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2020-12-10T04:51:22Z fengshaun: I could copy-paste the parse-timestring code into my own project and modify it though
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2020-12-10T04:51:38Z Hexstream: no-defun-allowed: Actually, yes. Although, much less bothersome than lisp-1.
2020-12-10T04:51:48Z oni-on-ion: CL is a big project by many many groups and individuals and also time. current hardcore common-lispers are maybe around 50 total worldwide ?
2020-12-10T04:52:24Z no-defun-allowed: Well, if there were reasons for adoption other than "cause the 'modern' programming languages do that and we want to look like them", then it may be worthwhile to put such modifications in a CLtL3.
2020-12-10T04:52:32Z no-defun-allowed: Hexstream: I see.
2020-12-10T04:52:43Z Hexstream: Speaking of which, it would be great if we had package-local symbol aliases, so we could import FUNCALL as CALL and stuff.
2020-12-10T04:53:04Z White_Flame: I've seen a number of function call chaining macros
2020-12-10T04:53:10Z Hexstream: As a bonus, it would make reading and printing even slower!
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2020-12-10T04:53:31Z White_Flame: Hexstream: that already exists
2020-12-10T04:53:37Z oni-on-ion: Hexstream,  http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
2020-12-10T04:53:40Z White_Flame: oh wait, package aliasing, not symbol, n/m
2020-12-10T04:53:41Z no-defun-allowed: What would the symbol-name of CALL be?
2020-12-10T04:53:53Z Hexstream: FUNCALL?
2020-12-10T04:54:05Z Hexstream: If you use an alias, I mean.
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2020-12-10T04:55:09Z Hexstream: It would be really great to be able to subclass ARRAY, PACKAGE, etc.
2020-12-10T04:55:31Z oni-on-ion: well there was a nice article about Lisp1 v. Lisp2 and all the many reasons for both sides. can't find it now, ironically
2020-12-10T04:55:55Z oni-on-ion: packages should be in a tree
2020-12-10T04:56:51Z no-defun-allowed: I can see why custom packages would be nice (I mostly want weak symbols, to be fair), but custom arrays and numeric types would get screwy with compiler optimisations, unless you start to over-specify types to get fast code, in which case you've kinda gained nothing.
2020-12-10T04:57:02Z oni-on-ion: root package: cl-user, keyword, etc; then symbols value can be package. idk if that is appropriate
2020-12-10T04:57:19Z Fare: Hexstream, but who is the target audience? And if you make changes to the language, what implementations will follow you?
2020-12-10T04:57:20Z Hexstream: I have many ideas for what I call "supercharged lisp-2", which would be like lisp-2 but with most of the advantages of lisp-1.
2020-12-10T04:57:53Z Fare: Especially if it's non-trivial changes. Or even simple changes, but with slightly different options than their legacy code relies on.
2020-12-10T04:58:24Z Fare: Things like first-class continuations? And how they interact with special variables?
2020-12-10T04:58:29Z oni-on-ion: it feels like CL21 but i dont know much about that. but there is an important fact here Hexstream : most of the great Schemes today (of which there are many more than CL implementations) have started as a "Better CL" -- and ended up scheme'd. perhaps start there first or find a meeting point half-way.
2020-12-10T04:58:32Z Fare: Or even just threads and special variables.
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2020-12-10T04:58:46Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, I also want green threads, so that "asynchronous" code doesn't look stupid.
2020-12-10T04:58:56Z Fare: Or even just standardizing the corner cases of the pathname spec
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2020-12-10T04:59:10Z Fare: no-defun-allowed, welcome to Gambit.
2020-12-10T04:59:19Z oni-on-ion: or Guile or Chicken =)
2020-12-10T04:59:22Z White_Flame: right, CL isn't a language you can easily tweak at the fundamental feature level.  More standard libraries would be nice, but QL is standard enough to allow any user to have the dependencies
2020-12-10T04:59:54Z no-defun-allowed: Fare: I mean, I'll take the rest of Common Lisp, but dammit I want nice socket code.
2020-12-10T04:59:57Z Fare: Or the ability to create symbol "aliases"
2020-12-10T05:00:53Z no-defun-allowed: And given that most of Common Lisp code has assumed synchronous/blocking sockets, it's difficult to use callback-based sockets with that code. Not so much for green threads; you could write blocking code like a normal person, and have an asynchronous backend.
2020-12-10T05:00:56Z Fare: Or to split the compiler from the rest of the system (yet pull it when needed?) (but not needed in surprising ways such as regular CLOS method evaluation)
2020-12-10T05:01:13Z oni-on-ion: so far Guile and Chicken have nearly all i'd want in a Lisp
2020-12-10T05:01:52Z Fare: I admit I didn't shop too much for a Scheme. I wanted Racket, or another Scheme with a good module system. Only Gerbil had it.
2020-12-10T05:01:56Z no-defun-allowed: I find myself using the compiler far too much to dispose of it.
2020-12-10T05:02:02Z oni-on-ion: no-defun-allowed, what we need is a feature to write code in Layers. so instead of (do-thing-1 ..) (do-thing-2 ..) for asynchronicity, they would be on the same line of code. like a Z layer in source files.
2020-12-10T05:02:13Z Fare: no-defun-allowed, I want to be able to deliver lean code.
2020-12-10T05:02:21Z Fare: Gambit allows that, for instance.
2020-12-10T05:02:26Z oni-on-ion: Chicken eggs have made me happy : but its the syntax changes there which are a huge boon for my useage.
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2020-12-10T05:02:42Z Fare: oni-on-ion, what kind of changes?
2020-12-10T05:02:54Z no-defun-allowed: When/if I make a native compiler for Netfarm, I will consider writing a presentation for the online Lisp meetings about compiling to Common Lisp.
2020-12-10T05:03:09Z White_Flame: oni-on-ion: layers would lead you to Befunge
2020-12-10T05:03:13Z no-defun-allowed: Since I've written approximately two of those (one chip-8 compiler, and one regular expression compiler).
2020-12-10T05:03:32Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: No, we just need asynchronous code to look like synchronous code, and for them to interoperate.
2020-12-10T05:03:47Z oni-on-ion: Fare, support for both ":keyword" and "keyword:" (coming from smalltalk/obj-c/english) , and also able to mix up any type of parens -- () [] {} <> depending on one's purpose. i am a visual coder, and Common Lisp is a bit too much like reading Prose to be efficient
2020-12-10T05:04:13Z oni-on-ion: no-defun-allowed, dunno. Ocaml and Julia both can do "automatic vectorising" given the data and algorithm are reasonable
2020-12-10T05:04:21Z Fare: Hexstream, I believe the issues with CL are, ultimately, social, and that CL attracts precisely socially inept people (me included) who are incapable of navigating those precise issues.
2020-12-10T05:04:22Z Hexstream: Fare: First, you definitely need your own Common Lisp implementation to lead the changes, and then you specify opt-in switches that can be activated to make certain changes to the language. Legacy code just doesn't activate any switches...
2020-12-10T05:04:43Z oni-on-ion: White_Flame, heh, well with say a shift+mousewheel to zoom in/out. so there is an active layer, and ones below and above. a bit like onion skinning used in animation
2020-12-10T05:04:43Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: Is that related to hiding the continuation?
2020-12-10T05:05:05Z Fare: Hexstream, so now you're going to reimplement CL, too?
2020-12-10T05:05:07Z no-defun-allowed: {-# LANGUAGE Welcome to GHC #-}
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2020-12-10T05:06:12Z oni-on-ion: no-defun-allowed, not sure. but in the links i sent forth yesterday on the ocaml multicore work, it says stuff that sounds quite great
2020-12-10T05:07:20Z no-defun-allowed: Fare: I want to modify SICL to use m:n green threads, and I sort of have a plan to do that. But you could get away with modifying only the stuff above HIR to make language changes.
2020-12-10T05:08:05Z Hexstream: Fare: Well, a fork of SBCL would be sufficient, but Common Lisp on Cloudflare Workers (WebAssembly) would just kill everything. https://workers.cloudflare.com/ Even fucking Haskell is on Cloudflare Workers!!
2020-12-10T05:08:19Z oni-on-ion: before that i think CL needs to be able to do multiple images. prolog/erlang naturally do the green threading easily because of this "VM". oh and now there is ocaml for BEAM...
2020-12-10T05:08:33Z no-defun-allowed: No fucking way I'm ever putting anything on CloudFlare.
2020-12-10T05:08:51Z oni-on-ion: sounds like Geocities or MegaUpload
2020-12-10T05:09:43Z lotuseater: oh didn't knew OCaml runs now on BEAM too
2020-12-10T05:10:11Z no-defun-allowed: How do they compile reference cells?
2020-12-10T05:10:39Z oni-on-ion: ocaml is coming up /fast/ -- theres a software foundation now just created, too
2020-12-10T05:10:40Z Hexstream: no-defun-allowed: Why not? I have everything on Cloudflare. 25+ subdomains across 4 main websites.
2020-12-10T05:11:17Z Hexstream: Around 10% of the web is behind Cloudflare...
2020-12-10T05:12:04Z oni-on-ion: lotuseater, https://github.com/AbstractMachinesLab/caramel/
2020-12-10T05:12:10Z no-defun-allowed: Hexstream: Well, they screw with people using Tor and centralises everything. A friend wrote about that in https://write.pixie.town/thufie/dont-trust-cloudflare
2020-12-10T05:12:24Z no-defun-allowed: But you appear to love centralisation, so that wouldn't convince you of anything.
2020-12-10T05:12:31Z Hexstream: They have native support for Tor these days, I seem to remember.
2020-12-10T05:12:48Z lotuseater: ah nice, thx oni-on-ion :) and i already tried LFE on BEAM too
2020-12-10T05:13:01Z oni-on-ion: lotuseater, cool, same here =) not elixir though, blech
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2020-12-10T05:14:48Z no-defun-allowed: Furthermore, in its current state, WASM is a huge step back from compiling to machine code, insofaras it is difficult to implement Lisp control flow. (But phoe and ioa at least are trying to change that, so it's not all horrible.)
2020-12-10T05:15:17Z Hexstream: no-defun-allowed: I don't have time to read that, but: https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-onion-service/
2020-12-10T05:15:28Z loke[m]: oni-on-ion: I have used Elixir for one project that didn't really go anywhere. It did make me want to use it again though. I just wish I had a project to use it with. My main two projects now is Common Lisp and Kotlin.
2020-12-10T05:16:14Z Hexstream: no-defun-allowed: I do love centralization, in fact I want to move my origin from DigitalOcean to Cloudflare Workers.
2020-12-10T05:16:20Z no-defun-allowed: Disgusting.
2020-12-10T05:16:37Z oni-on-ion: loke[m], cool. for BEAM i did mainly pure Erlang. i rather enjoyed it=)
2020-12-10T05:17:05Z Hexstream: Cloudflare is eating the world! Deal with it. 😎
2020-12-10T05:17:11Z lotuseater: ongoing centralization is programmed death of the web
2020-12-10T05:17:30Z oni-on-ion: meanwhile IRC
2020-12-10T05:17:34Z no-defun-allowed: I will deal with it, and I will deal with it promptly, should my own plans for 2021 transfer into reality.
2020-12-10T05:17:36Z loke[m]: oni-on-ion: I wanted to enjoy Erlang, but it had some rough edges. Also, the Emacs development environment for it had bugs and was unmaintained. Elixir is just more programmer-friendly, and the Emacs integration was nice.
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2020-12-10T05:18:03Z oni-on-ion: to be pendantic. are you guys talking about the world wide web? or the actual TCP/IP and IPvX network ?
2020-12-10T05:18:45Z oni-on-ion: loke[m], yep. there are a couple large offerings for erlang+emacs but they seemed to have faltered briefly. afaik today they are fine (distel being one?)
2020-12-10T05:18:55Z oni-on-ion: not sure, don't want to be off topic
2020-12-10T05:19:02Z no-defun-allowed: TCP/IP is pretty good - the Internet was funded cause it was sufficiently fault tolerant (owing in part to decentralisation, and clever abstraction over routing).
2020-12-10T05:19:30Z no-defun-allowed: But I abstract over that just to be sure.
2020-12-10T05:19:37Z loke[m]: oni-on-ion: I see. I haven't investigated Erlang on Emacs for a few years now. I do feel that Elixir only adds to what makes Erlang nice, and there seems to be no drawbacks.
2020-12-10T05:20:00Z oni-on-ion: the "WWW" aspect (interlinked http urls) is a whole other ball game. it is *mainly* an advertising platform. that's it. like a magazine. big sites are like television networks. then it makes more sense. websites suck.
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2020-12-10T05:20:35Z oni-on-ion: loke[m], for me it is the syntax. i cannot stand begin,begin,begin [do something] end end end end end
2020-12-10T05:20:53Z loke[m]: *no-defun-allowed*: Are you on this channel via Matrix? I can see "...in typing" messages from you :-)
2020-12-10T05:20:54Z oni-on-ion: i can see open and closed brace/paren way more efficiently than reading prose
2020-12-10T05:21:06Z no-defun-allowed: loke: Yes.
2020-12-10T05:21:25Z loke[m]: *no-defun-allowed*: It works remarkably well, don't you think?
2020-12-10T05:21:28Z oni-on-ion: (i am a visual coder and ocaml is hyper-fast to read. like C to me, easy to instantly see a page of code and know what is going on. with CL for eg it has to be "readed" and thats just not my brain)
2020-12-10T05:22:03Z no-defun-allowed: loke: They disabled online/offline status markers on matrix.org because it was too performance-intensive. But I suppose typing notifications work.
2020-12-10T05:22:19Z loke[m]: *no-defun-allowed*: Yeah, I was surprised to see it.
2020-12-10T05:22:38Z oni-on-ion: yuck. so it turns into facebook
2020-12-10T05:22:51Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: "it turns into Discord" would be more correct.
2020-12-10T05:22:56Z loke[m]: I also like how it maps @-whatever to the typical IRC style with :.
2020-12-10T05:23:17Z loke[m]: *no-defun-allowed*: it means that people on IRC will br griding their teeth when someone from Matrix joins.
2020-12-10T05:23:20Z oni-on-ion: because Discord turned into facebook then ? "Typing... " and also "Seen msg" etc.
2020-12-10T05:23:57Z loke[m]: "will _not_ be grinding their teeth"
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2020-12-10T05:24:12Z no-defun-allowed: Interesting, when you ping me I still have earmuffs on my name. I don't have earmuffs on my IRC nick.
2020-12-10T05:24:37Z loke[m]: I see. That's a discrepancy then.
2020-12-10T05:24:44Z loke[m]: So the integration isn't perfect.
2020-12-10T05:24:57Z oni-on-ion: speaking of, should check email now
2020-12-10T05:24:59Z no-defun-allowed: It's surprisingly good, I only have to hop on irssi when matrix.org goes down.
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2020-12-10T05:25:26Z loke[m]: However, if you go the #apl channel, you'll see it's linked with the Stackoverflow chat. That integration is absolutely awful. There is a single user on the channel that relays messages from SO and vice versa.
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2020-12-10T05:25:39Z lotuseater: so no-defun-allowed you're a parameter
2020-12-10T05:25:49Z loke[m]: no-defun-allowed: Run your own server, that's what I do. :-)
2020-12-10T05:26:12Z no-defun-allowed: I think some of the other bridges have less "hooks" into matrix.org, like they can't fabricate a user for each IRC user.
2020-12-10T05:26:27Z loke[m]: That said, the bridge is probably running on the matrix.org machine, so it probably doesn't matter.
2020-12-10T05:26:49Z no-defun-allowed: loke: I got bored enough of "run your own server" that I wrote a distributed object system, a manual for that object system, and then a nasty comment about it in the manual.
2020-12-10T05:27:15Z loke[m]: I don't run many servers, for the Matrix one is nice.
2020-12-10T05:27:46Z loke[m]: I want to set up my own Peertube and Pixelfed servers though, mainly as part of my project to degooglify myself.
2020-12-10T05:28:53Z oni-on-ion: err so back to erlang. i rather enjoyed its syntax, same with most of prolog. would like to see that on BEAM
2020-12-10T05:29:19Z no-defun-allowed: Nothing really personal, but federation is a bit stupid with one user per server.
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2020-12-10T05:29:41Z no-defun-allowed: I'd rather have no central point of failure rather than own the central point of failure; the latter is too much work.
2020-12-10T05:29:54Z loke[m]: no-defun-allowed: Well, sure. For more people definitely.
2020-12-10T05:30:50Z no-defun-allowed: Well, the same goes for too many users per server. In my opinion, the sweet spot is 100-1000 users a server, but some people would say 10-100 is more appropriate.
2020-12-10T05:30:53Z loke[m]: *no-defun-allowed*: Sure, but then you have to trust that single point of failure. Right now, for example, my videos are mainly on peertube.mastodon.host, but there are some issues there and I'm not sure I can rely on them staying up.
2020-12-10T05:31:10Z loke[m]: *no-defun-allowed*: Which mastodon server are you on?
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2020-12-10T05:31:36Z no-defun-allowed: I am currently on eldritch.cafe, but I used to be on ponies.im (I still have a Matrix account there). Also, should we take it to #lispcafe?
2020-12-10T05:32:43Z no-defun-allowed: lotuseater: Yes, when you bind *no-defun-allowed\* to a truthy generalised boolean, you cannot DEFUN, as you might expect from the name.
2020-12-10T05:33:25Z no-defun-allowed: Matrix clients hate that name, and so does the IRC bridge; it didn't drop the escape \ to avoid italics.
2020-12-10T05:34:31Z loke[m]: *no-defun-allowed*: are you able to join #lispcafe from Matrix? It required a registered nick.
2020-12-10T05:34:36Z lotuseater: when using the freenode irc client earmuffs get things to bold
2020-12-10T05:34:40Z loke[m]: I'm not sure you can do that via matrix?
2020-12-10T05:35:01Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, you need to talk to talk to NickServ, and/or tell @appservice-irc:matrix.org to remember your password.
2020-12-10T05:35:06Z loke[m]: lotuseater: that's neat, because that's what *the Matrix bridge* also does.
2020-12-10T05:35:13Z loke[m]: Oh wait, it makes it italics. Horrible.
2020-12-10T05:35:25Z no-defun-allowed: Sure you can, the former just requires sending a private message to @freenode_NickServ:matrix.org
2020-12-10T05:36:43Z lotuseater: loke[m]: yes like in org mode, earmuffs for bold and slash for italics
2020-12-10T05:37:10Z no-defun-allowed: Matrix uses Markdown, so one set of earmuffs or underscores is italic, and two sets are bold. Three are both.
2020-12-10T05:37:43Z loke[m]: Horrible.
2020-12-10T05:37:59Z loke[m]: Markdown is an absolutely awful syntax,.
2020-12-10T05:38:01Z loke[m]:  * Markdown is an absolutely awful syntax.
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2020-12-10T05:38:38Z lotuseater: some may get the idea it's some kind of programming language
2020-12-10T05:39:05Z loke[m]: The real issue is that the format is non-deterministic.
2020-12-10T05:39:19Z loke[m]: I've come to really enjoy asciidoc.
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2020-12-10T05:44:28Z no-defun-allowed: loke: Well, someone's bound to get annoyed if we keep talking about Matrix here. How about budget #lispcafe (#symbolics2:ponies.im) instead?
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2020-12-10T05:53:36Z oni-on-ion: use YAML instead
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2020-12-10T05:59:20Z loke[m]: oni-on-ion: YAML for what? (I personally find YAML to be just as horrible as JSON (although, on different grounds).
2020-12-10T06:00:33Z no-defun-allowed: I want nothing to do with data representations.
2020-12-10T06:00:34Z oni-on-ion: instead of markdown. as just mentioned .
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2020-12-10T06:16:55Z srandon111: guys what do you think about clojure ?
2020-12-10T06:16:59Z srandon111: pros and cons ?
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2020-12-10T06:17:11Z no-defun-allowed: cons: no CONS
2020-12-10T06:17:21Z lotuseater: :D
2020-12-10T06:17:23Z easye: no-defun-allowed: +1
2020-12-10T06:17:28Z no-defun-allowed: pros: gets you hired maybe
2020-12-10T06:17:52Z lotuseater: srandon111: by statistics one of the best paid languages
2020-12-10T06:18:30Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, and then? what's the disadvantage of not having cons?
2020-12-10T06:18:44Z lotuseater: not CONSequent
2020-12-10T06:18:54Z srandon111: lotuseater, i don't understand
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2020-12-10T06:19:09Z srandon111: lotuseater, i don't like the fact of having huge startup times
2020-12-10T06:19:10Z srandon111: damn
2020-12-10T06:19:14Z lotuseater: it's kind of a joke
2020-12-10T06:19:36Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: Well, it was a pun on the name of the CONS cell, which Clojure doesn't really expose. But you also lose out on object-oriented programming, which I think can in fact be made concurrent (eg actors).
2020-12-10T06:19:39Z oni-on-ion: i had fun with clojure, its nice to work with. aside from the java errors/backtrace (which may be different now) and the startup times are abysmal
2020-12-10T06:19:41Z lotuseater: yeah but startup time is mostly once, as for using emacs
2020-12-10T06:20:22Z srandon111: lotuseater, i am into developing cli apps
2020-12-10T06:20:23Z oni-on-ion: ClojureScript was alright too
2020-12-10T06:20:33Z srandon111: and its startup time is making me want to learn common lisp
2020-12-10T06:20:56Z oni-on-ion: CL startup time isnt the greatest either, but much better than Clojure
2020-12-10T06:20:59Z lotuseater: yeah then first learn how everything fits together
2020-12-10T06:21:10Z srandon111: because i like clojure and its ecosystem, but it does not seem friendly for the kind of cli apps i want to make
2020-12-10T06:21:36Z srandon111: for example... i cannot wait 4 seconds to show the help of a ocmmand line app come on guys
2020-12-10T06:21:45Z oni-on-ion: ^ zactly
2020-12-10T06:23:19Z sgibber2018: Is it really that long? Why?
2020-12-10T06:23:39Z no-defun-allowed: I think it has to do with the Java virtual machine, because ABCL also leaves you hanging for a while.
2020-12-10T06:25:28Z sgibber2018: That was my guess, but I wanted to ask just to be sure
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2020-12-10T06:25:50Z sgibber2018: The only LISP I've ever used is Scheme, if that counts.
2020-12-10T06:26:47Z srandon111: sgibber2018, why it should not count?
2020-12-10T06:26:47Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: I mean, I can start a SBCL image and start a few threads in 50ms, which is acceptable if you're not running it in a loop.
2020-12-10T06:27:03Z srandon111: schemes downside is the lack of 3rd party stuff and lack of good documentation imho
2020-12-10T06:27:06Z sgibber2018: srandon111: I assume it would, but that's how much of a non-expert I am.
2020-12-10T06:27:37Z sgibber2018: I just found a Scheme textbook at the used book store one day and went through it and loved it. Since then I've been bummed I can't find a use for it.
2020-12-10T06:27:48Z no-defun-allowed: And the other big con is that it's touted as "modern" and the community is a disaster for online discourse. But I digress.
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2020-12-10T06:28:39Z lotuseater: there are some good scheme native compilers
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2020-12-10T06:29:50Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, yes it's true
2020-12-10T06:30:04Z srandon111: there is people who think that guile docs are good
2020-12-10T06:30:11Z srandon111: damn there isn't half of an example in that doc
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2020-12-10T06:31:08Z sgibber2018: The book I found at the store was by the guy who wrote chez scheme so that's the one I've always used for fiddling around. I have no idea what the relative merits of them are. Except that chicken is supposed to be pretty neat.
2020-12-10T06:31:28Z no-defun-allowed: My favourite co-author and I have a bet that most of the "bags of unlabelled data" stuff would be better served with prototypes, and I can in fact model time quite well with CLOS. To some extent, the result looks, nay, is basically transactional OOP: https://gitlab.com/Theemacsshibe/cl-worlds
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2020-12-10T06:36:23Z oni-on-ion: eh, on cold boot, SBCL took about 6 seconds but i am on regular HDD and quicklisp might have some stuff going on during load
2020-12-10T06:37:14Z oni-on-ion: average now after its in recent cache, 0.635 second (635 ms?)
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2020-12-10T06:55:44Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, try (save-lisp-and-die "/tmp/foo" :executable t :toplevel (lambda () (print "Hello world!"))) or something like that.
2020-12-10T06:56:18Z no-defun-allowed: Hey, that's <10ms from a tmpfs.
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2020-12-10T07:01:04Z beach: Does Clojure have an independent standard?
2020-12-10T07:03:29Z beach: As I emphasize in my talks to industry, a project leader who chooses a language without an independent standard should be fired.
2020-12-10T07:03:30Z beach: Unless, of course, that person made a risk analysis that takes into account the possibility of having to rewrite the project code when it turns out that the language that was chosen was abandoned, or was modified in such a radical way that the code no longer works.
2020-12-10T07:04:06Z beach: Or legal costs when the company is sued (by Oracle, maybe?) for using a proprietary language or tool set.
2020-12-10T07:05:13Z no-defun-allowed: I dunno, the former situation is apparently an advantage according to recent #lisp discussion.
2020-12-10T07:05:35Z beach: "former"?
2020-12-10T07:05:44Z beach: Which one is that?
2020-12-10T07:05:50Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: I'm arguing for SBCL images over Java software because the HTTP port is up after <15msec, which is great in a PaaS or SaaS...
2020-12-10T07:06:12Z no-defun-allowed: My apologies: "the possibility of having to rewrite the project code when it turns out that the language [...] was modified in such a radical way that the code no longer works"
2020-12-10T07:06:42Z beach: Hmm.
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2020-12-10T07:19:05Z loke[m]: *no-defun-allowed*: that sounds like Rust?
2020-12-10T07:20:21Z beach: loke[m]: Why do you give no-defun-allowed earmuffs?
2020-12-10T07:21:25Z loke[m]: beach: becaue n-d-f is using Matrix to connect to IRC, and the Matrix username is no-defun-allowed. The username is mapped to IRC as no-defun-allowed.
2020-12-10T07:22:15Z beach: I'm lost.  But I guess it's not important.
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2020-12-10T07:24:36Z loke[m]: beach: Matrix is a federated chat software. It can link to IRC quite effectively, and integrates quite well. However, there are some places where incompatibilities shine through. One of those cases is when your Matrix username is not compatible with IRC. n-d-f has asterisks in the Matrix username, which is not allowed in IRC. Since I also use Matrix, I see the asterisks.
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2020-12-10T07:27:39Z beach: I see (I think).
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2020-12-10T07:33:37Z phoe: Xach: when I made a GECO repo you mentioned that gpwwjr was a person of the Old Ways
2020-12-10T07:33:59Z phoe: now there's an official git repo from him!
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2020-12-10T07:56:03Z ebrasca: Morning!
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2020-12-10T07:57:07Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
2020-12-10T07:57:34Z phoe: hello
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2020-12-10T08:51:50Z no-defun-allowed: beach: My Matrix nick has earmuffs, and pinging me copies that instead of the IRC nick.
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2020-12-10T08:52:51Z no-defun-allowed: loke: Well, credit where credit is due, don't they have...three year epochs as "releases"?
2020-12-10T08:53:23Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Got it.
2020-12-10T08:53:54Z no-defun-allowed: It used to be #'no-defun-allowed, but why would that be a function?
2020-12-10T08:54:20Z beach: Yeah, no reason.
2020-12-10T08:54:26Z no-defun-allowed: (A rhetorical question. Earmuffs make some more sense.)
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2020-12-10T08:59:44Z no-defun-allowed: Also, note that IRC nicks and Matrix nicks are usually not the same (which, from my reading, may be suggested by "mapping to IRC"). Usually they have [m] at the end, which is a story I told before - actually, no, they might be similar.
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2020-12-10T09:01:37Z no-defun-allowed: And Matrix nicks may also be different between rooms - I have my first name as a nick in some. What happens if I set a different nick for #lisp?
2020-12-10T09:02:18Z no-defun-allowed: Nothing. Maybe there is something else I have to change to change my IRC nick.
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2020-12-10T09:03:21Z spal: This is my Freenode IRC nick ...
2020-12-10T09:03:23Z susam: ... and this is my Matrix nick (also registered in Freenode)
2020-12-10T09:03:42Z ck_: sounds a little off topic for #lisp
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2020-12-10T09:05:03Z susam: On Matrix, you can open a private chat with @appservice-irc:matrix.org and run commands on it (like !nick) to change the Freenode-side nick of your Matrix user.
2020-12-10T09:05:37Z susam: ck_: Offtopic indeed. Sorry for the digression.
2020-12-10T09:05:38Z beach: I agree with ck_.
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2020-12-10T09:42:34Z pve: beach: Hi, you've mentioned implementing a compiler using the "full language" (or something to that effect). Can I read more about this approach somewhere?
2020-12-10T09:43:29Z beach: pve: Let me check what I have written that might work.  Hold on...
2020-12-10T09:44:55Z pve: beach: thanks, there's absolutely no rush
2020-12-10T09:46:15Z beach: I don't see anything that is specifically addressing this point.  But if you join #sicl I can explain a bit more.  If that way of doing it is convenient for you, of course.
2020-12-10T09:47:22Z pve: certainly
2020-12-10T09:47:26Z beach: There is not much to say about it, in fact.  The main thing is to make the code idiomatic and to create a bootstrapping procedure to make it operational.
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2020-12-10T10:03:38Z phoe: @everyone: ELS 2021 is going to be online. I just got a response from Didier.
2020-12-10T10:03:52Z beach: Great!
2020-12-10T10:04:31Z easye: phoe: good.
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2020-12-10T10:07:59Z phoe: ...maybe I should not have mailed Didier after all though
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2020-12-10T10:08:02Z phoe: he asked me a tough question
2020-12-10T10:08:53Z phoe: the question was, given my experience with streaming Lisp stuff, would I like to stream more Lisp stuff
2020-12-10T10:09:09Z flip214: phoe: whether you'll cause fist fights with your presence?
2020-12-10T10:09:23Z flip214: oh, not that tragic then
2020-12-10T10:10:01Z phoe: flip214: not that, but I enjoyed your post in face of the current dynamic context
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2020-12-10T10:10:11Z easye: phoe: I'd be happy help stream ELS2021
2020-12-10T10:10:22Z phoe: easye: go tell Didier then!
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2020-12-10T10:11:07Z phoe: I accepted his offer, but I'll surely need a backup in case my computer or connection decide to fail.
2020-12-10T10:11:09Z easye: I DM'd him yesterday on Twitter.  Can you /MSG me the email address you are using.
2020-12-10T10:12:49Z phoe: easye: added you to the mail thread instead.
2020-12-10T10:12:52Z easye: Got it.
2020-12-10T10:14:27Z flip214: phoe: glad that I can enlighten your mood!
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2020-12-10T10:16:35Z phoe: Didier: «Thanks again for "volunteering" :D»
2020-12-10T10:16:46Z phoe: yeah, right
2020-12-10T10:17:36Z flip214: phoe: you got volunteered by all of us
2020-12-10T10:17:40Z flip214: by popular vote
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2020-12-10T10:17:59Z flip214: and as soon as ELS happens in real world again, you might even get bought a beer or a half
2020-12-10T10:18:10Z flip214: but the current ETA for that is 2038 or so
2020-12-10T10:18:29Z phoe: isn't that when the unix time runs out?
2020-12-10T10:18:32Z phoe: which is kinda, uh
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2020-12-10T10:18:42Z beach: Nah, we will all be vaccinated by the end of 2021.
2020-12-10T10:18:49Z phoe: foreshadowing
2020-12-10T10:18:53Z flip214: only for 32bit values, which are more and more uncommon
2020-12-10T10:19:09Z flip214: even javascript has 53bit for integers defined
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2020-12-10T10:19:32Z phoe: okay then
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2020-12-10T10:27:07Z flip214: and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25310651, of course
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2020-12-10T11:43:55Z flip214: is there a library that can bidirectionally relay data between two streams resp. sockets?
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2020-12-10T11:46:57Z flip214: hmmm, perhaps cl-async
2020-12-10T11:48:07Z phoe: flip214: https://github.com/smithzvk/cl-plumbing connect-streams?
2020-12-10T11:48:26Z flip214: hmm, https://github.com/orthecreedence/cl-async/blob/master/examples/simple-proxy.lisp
2020-12-10T11:48:36Z flip214: phoe: thanks, will look at that as well!
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2020-12-10T11:49:31Z flip214: phoe: though the README sounds to me as if it requires two threads, one for each direction?!
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2020-12-10T11:51:49Z phoe: flip214: I actually don't know more details
2020-12-10T11:52:02Z flip214: might become unwieldy for 20 socket pairs or so...
2020-12-10T11:52:04Z phoe: something for sure needs to monitor the threads and perform the byte-copying
2020-12-10T11:52:24Z phoe: 20 socket pairs could be handled even by a single thread I guess, depending on traffic levels of course
2020-12-10T11:52:29Z phoe: hm
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2020-12-10T12:05:52Z flip214: yeah, right - data rate isn't the issue
2020-12-10T12:06:40Z flip214: though latency and fairness might be - so I want some epoll or similar stuff, not "read until exhausted, next socket"
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2020-12-10T12:39:42Z phoe: flip214: sounds like something based around wait-for-input then
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2020-12-10T13:32:59Z nij: Any one using 'cl-ledger'? https://github.com/ledger/cl-ledger
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2020-12-10T13:51:52Z nij: Nvm.. what is an object? According to lispworks doc, an object is any Lisp datum.
2020-12-10T13:52:00Z nij: But it doesn't say what a Lisp datum is.
2020-12-10T13:52:05Z nij: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_o.htm#object
2020-12-10T13:52:15Z phoe: a datum is singular of data
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2020-12-10T13:52:30Z phoe: in yet other words, a value
2020-12-10T13:52:42Z nij: Yes so what are Lisp data, or Lisp values?
2020-12-10T13:52:51Z phoe: in yer yet other words, something that you can operate on, return from functions, pass to functions
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2020-12-10T13:53:16Z beach: Store in a variable.
2020-12-10T13:53:19Z phoe: in yet yet yet other words, a datum can be a number, a string, a list, an array, a symbol, a cons cell, a hash-table, a class, an instance, ..., ...
2020-12-10T13:53:52Z nij: phoe: I get that. Perhaps I really have to look into the source of Lisp to really grab what it is. I won't do that now.
2020-12-10T13:54:18Z beach: nij: There is no "source of Lisp".  Only of individual implementations.
2020-12-10T13:54:24Z phoe: ^
2020-12-10T13:54:34Z nij: Oh yes. should say source of any implementation.
2020-12-10T13:54:34Z Bike: don't overthink it. a datum is just a manipulable thing of some kind.
2020-12-10T13:54:36Z phoe: if anything, you might want to look into the tests of Lisp
2020-12-10T13:54:53Z phoe: to figure out how some operator or data structure should behave.
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2020-12-10T13:55:05Z beach: nij: But the concept of an object/datum is very simple.  It is anything that you can pass to a function, return from a function, store as the value of a variable, store in an array, store in a slot.
2020-12-10T13:55:13Z Bike: defining "datum" for lisp is like trying to define the word "object" in normal english. it's like, a thing.
2020-12-10T13:55:25Z phoe: if you like grokking software this way, then you could search in https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test for your favorite CL operator and check how it is supposed to work.
2020-12-10T13:55:33Z beach: nij: And you won't find anything by reading the source code of an implementation.
2020-12-10T13:55:37Z phoe: that would be a pretty unique way of using ansi-tests, but I guess whatever floats your boat.
2020-12-10T13:55:46Z nij: What are primitive types of data, eg in sbcl?
2020-12-10T13:56:32Z nij: Eg I think in C characters are modeled by integers. In this case I'd say integers are primitive, but characters are not.
2020-12-10T13:56:57Z nij:  Similary by using 'defstruct, we can make many kinds of objects, out of the old ones.
2020-12-10T13:57:16Z phoe: nij: https://sellout.github.io/media/CL-type-hierarchy.png
2020-12-10T13:57:18Z nij: But there must be some of them that couldn't be implemented within lisp.
2020-12-10T13:57:42Z nij: OH THIS! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
2020-12-10T13:57:47Z phoe: good
2020-12-10T13:57:47Z Bike: what is the purpose of this definition?
2020-12-10T13:57:55Z Bike: of "primitive"?
2020-12-10T13:58:03Z nij: Bike: just curious
2020-12-10T13:58:27Z Bike: i mean, it depends, doesn't it? on a modern computer basically everything is going to be encoded as a small integer or series of small integers
2020-12-10T13:58:41Z Bike: that doesn't exactly help you with language semantics
2020-12-10T13:58:49Z nij: 0 and 1
2020-12-10T13:59:12Z nij: No it won't help indeed.
2020-12-10T13:59:17Z Bike: right, but this is like learning how to cook and starting by asking what quarks things are made out of
2020-12-10T13:59:32Z nij: I'm just curious what's happening at the bridging layer between lisp and one step below.
2020-12-10T14:00:08Z nij: Bike: I did that and became a researcher xD
2020-12-10T14:00:28Z nij: Academic people like me are doomed to procrastinate for stupid reasons :'(
2020-12-10T14:00:38Z Bike: it's not like chemistry isn't relevant to cooking, but if you're at the point of not knowing how to boil water it's not going to do you much good, you know what i mean?
2020-12-10T14:00:39Z nij: But I do like the graph phoe posted
2020-12-10T14:00:53Z nij: Bike: yeah I get you
2020-12-10T14:01:21Z Bike: phoe's graph has nothing whatsoever to do with the "bridging layer" you mentioned. it's just the language semantics.
2020-12-10T14:01:54Z nij: Uh.. at the top of each connected components.. aren't they the primitive types?
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2020-12-10T14:02:06Z Bike: nope, those are the superclasses.
2020-12-10T14:02:16Z Bike: for example this says that REAL and COMPLEX are NUMBERs
2020-12-10T14:02:19Z nij: :O :O :口
2020-12-10T14:02:32Z Bike: but that doesn't mean there's a "primitive" "number" type or anything
2020-12-10T14:02:49Z nij: I misunderstood, then..
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2020-12-10T14:04:01Z nij: I admit I'm just a miserable researcher who just start to realize that every theory is essentially empty within itself, and probably the most true thing are the objects in languages like Lisp.. at least a foundation can be fetched..
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2020-12-10T14:05:00Z nij: (Don't take it too seriously :) but this is really what I am at.. it should go to #lispcafe though.. so I'll stop here.
2020-12-10T14:05:14Z Bike: i understand your thought process and i don't think it's going to work. lisp is an abstraction layer. there are any number of ways an implementation could decide to implement those semantics on actually existing computers.
2020-12-10T14:05:37Z Bike: this is true of C or any other language as well really, but the C virtual machine is relatively similar to actual machines, so people forget
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2020-12-10T14:06:10Z nij: Bike, you just destroyed my last hope. xD
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2020-12-10T14:06:15Z nij: Nah just kidding. I get that..
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2020-12-10T14:06:31Z phoe: nij: do you understand what an axiom is?
2020-12-10T14:06:34Z nij: But somehow I feel the urge to get to understand the roots of the current abstraction level I'm at.
2020-12-10T14:06:37Z phoe: in logic, in proofs, in mathematical reasoning
2020-12-10T14:06:46Z nij: phoe: I am a mathematician. So.. yes.
2020-12-10T14:06:50Z phoe: good
2020-12-10T14:06:58Z phoe: then a lot about CL type theory is actually axioms.
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2020-12-10T14:07:09Z nij: Yeah but I don't really like axioms..
2020-12-10T14:07:21Z Bike: what an odd thing to say.
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2020-12-10T14:07:25Z phoe: symbols exist as a type and that type is allowed to be primitive so not defined in terms of anything else - or, in other words, via built-in-class.
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2020-12-10T14:07:36Z phoe: s/that type/that class/
2020-12-10T14:07:42Z phoe: s/type/class/
2020-12-10T14:07:56Z phoe: that's all. there's no more proof, that's an axiom of ANSI Common Lisp.
2020-12-10T14:07:59Z nij: Bike: ? what's odd
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2020-12-10T14:08:24Z nij: phoe: thanks ..
2020-12-10T14:08:24Z phoe: there's a ton of other axioms like that, and what you're diving into when you jump into implementation sources is just details of their concrete implementation.
2020-12-10T14:08:29Z Bike: in math terms this is like you want to learn to multiply so you go "ok, so numbers are defined as sets of sets, right?" like no, that's just if you use set theory instead of category theory or whatever else, and even then there are any number of possible representations of numbers as sets
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2020-12-10T14:09:08Z nij: Bike: that's exactly what made me feel void.
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2020-12-10T14:10:10Z nij: It feels like whether things exist isn't the point, but how they behave is.
2020-12-10T14:10:19Z Bike: well, yeah, pretty much.
2020-12-10T14:10:21Z phoe: obviously
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2020-12-10T14:10:34Z phoe: can you prove you're self-aware?
2020-12-10T14:10:35Z Bike: sorry, i guess. but i can't fix that by lying to you and telling you that actually the one true way to represent numbers is like bla bla bla.
2020-12-10T14:10:45Z phoe: or is that only inferable from your behavior?
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2020-12-10T14:11:15Z nij: phoe: I don't even know what's self-aware.. (plus we don't need a proof for everything..
2020-12-10T14:11:29Z nij: Bike: fair.
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2020-12-10T14:11:49Z phoe: a Common Lisp implementation is allowed to implement CL:+ by sending the question over the Internet as a question to Amazon Mechanical Turk, waiting for the response, and returning the value that was produced this way
2020-12-10T14:12:12Z phoe: and that will work, ANSI-TEST are gonna pass on this
2020-12-10T14:12:47Z nij: :(
2020-12-10T14:13:00Z phoe: and the only downsides to it are that you're gonna be real puzzled when you look at the implementation sources for that.
2020-12-10T14:13:10Z phoe: and that it's gonna be slow and expensive like holy hell.
2020-12-10T14:13:54Z aeth: Just crowdsource it for free on Twitch chat. You could even use the name twitchplayscommonlisp
2020-12-10T14:13:55Z nij: phoe: I'm warned. I won't do that too soon!
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2020-12-10T14:14:29Z phoe: aeth: touche
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2020-12-10T14:21:18Z beach: nij: What do you consider as being one step below Lisp?
2020-12-10T14:24:00Z aeth: the correct answer is (1- *lisp*)
2020-12-10T14:24:25Z nij: beach: The language used in the source code of whichever lisp implementation.
2020-12-10T14:24:39Z nij: aeth: approximately yeah, (1- *lisp*)
2020-12-10T14:24:43Z phoe: nij: well
2020-12-10T14:24:46Z beach: nij: So for SBCL and SICL, that would be Common Lisp.
2020-12-10T14:24:47Z phoe: beach gon teach you a lesson in a moment
2020-12-10T14:25:22Z phoe: the only parts of SBCL written in C would be the garbage collector and low-level stuff for interfacing with the OS API
2020-12-10T14:25:32Z phoe: and as far as I know SICL wants to get rid even of those
2020-12-10T14:25:45Z aeth: afaik, SBCL writes the GC in C so that you're able to debug it if things go wrong
2020-12-10T14:25:52Z aeth: it's absolutely not necessary to write a GC in C
2020-12-10T14:25:53Z beach: Indeed.  The SICL garbage collector is written in Common Lisp.
2020-12-10T14:26:50Z nij: @@ how about the special forms?
2020-12-10T14:27:10Z nij: I get that most of any Lisp implementation can be writting in the Lisp
2020-12-10T14:27:15Z beach: The compiler (written in Common Lisp too) handles them specially.
2020-12-10T14:27:51Z nij: Who compiled the compiler?
2020-12-10T14:28:11Z phoe: the previous compiler
2020-12-10T14:28:18Z beach: It was compiled on a Common Lisp system.
2020-12-10T14:28:21Z phoe: e.g. SBCL
2020-12-10T14:28:23Z phoe: or CCL
2020-12-10T14:28:27Z phoe: or ECL, or CLISP, or ABCL
2020-12-10T14:28:46Z nij: Lol so Common Lisp has been used to bootstrap Common Lisp implementations several times?
2020-12-10T14:28:55Z phoe: it's used for that purpose all the time
2020-12-10T14:29:06Z phoe: like, SBCL compiles SBCL all the time
2020-12-10T14:29:36Z nij: Come on there must be a starting point when common lisp needs to be bootstrapped by other languages.
2020-12-10T14:29:48Z phoe: uh
2020-12-10T14:29:52Z phoe: what do you mean by "starting point"?
2020-12-10T14:29:55Z beach: nij: Maybe 50 years ago.
2020-12-10T14:30:04Z nij: beach: yeah then that's what I'm talking about
2020-12-10T14:30:16Z phoe: so, yes, obviously there was such a point somewhere someday
2020-12-10T14:30:19Z beach: But you won't find any trace of those anymore.
2020-12-10T14:30:22Z phoe: that's how evolution works
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2020-12-10T14:30:40Z phoe: following this logic there is also a point when humans weren't human, but suddenly, bam, there is a human
2020-12-10T14:30:54Z nij: beach: REALLY? It's so hard to find?!
2020-12-10T14:31:04Z nij: phoe: LOL
2020-12-10T14:31:13Z phoe: I mean, ECL compiles from portable C
2020-12-10T14:31:15Z shinohai: CLISP, bootstrapping you into sbcl since 1999 (tm)
2020-12-10T14:31:18Z phoe: so does CLISP
2020-12-10T14:31:29Z nij: This is what I'm looking for!
2020-12-10T14:31:37Z nij: I regain meaning from ignorance!
2020-12-10T14:31:38Z phoe: but other implementations don't do that because writing a lot of Lisp code in C is, uhh, ugly
2020-12-10T14:31:56Z phoe: that's why SBCL bootstraps from Lisp plus a small C module
2020-12-10T14:32:04Z phoe: CCL bootstraps from CCL plus a small C module
2020-12-10T14:32:17Z phoe: SICL bootstraps from Common Lisp and abhors C modules altogether
2020-12-10T14:32:29Z phoe: so, you know - it isn't universal.
2020-12-10T14:33:01Z phoe: and you still need a C compiler, too.
2020-12-10T14:33:09Z phoe: who's gonna bootstrap that one?
2020-12-10T14:33:16Z nij: You must love Lisp so much to know all the stories of the ancestors.
2020-12-10T14:33:37Z phoe: it's more like just common knowledge, it sinks into you over time as you chat with lispfolk and read about stuff
2020-12-10T14:33:53Z phoe: unless you're also interested in it, at which point it's 10% of the required time
2020-12-10T14:33:56Z phoe afk
2020-12-10T14:34:01Z nij: Someone should make a lisp out of machine code.
2020-12-10T14:34:22Z aeth: nij: It's the same issue with C. What compiled the first C compiler in a chain of C compilers? Well, just like with CL, it's either (1) another compiler of the same language, (2) a compiler written in another high level language, or (3) a compiler hand-written in assembly or machine code
2020-12-10T14:34:28Z phoe: nij: why
2020-12-10T14:34:32Z phoe: that would be counter productive
2020-12-10T14:34:33Z aeth: Ultimately, the chain of compilers has to be traced to #3
2020-12-10T14:34:43Z aeth: (OK, #3 might have also been an interpreter)
2020-12-10T14:35:07Z phoe: also, who created that machine code
2020-12-10T14:35:11Z nij: phoe it feels more meaningful
2020-12-10T14:35:12Z phoe: and who created the machine that executes it
2020-12-10T14:35:14Z aeth: nij: It's possible that some Common Lisp compiler chains trace their origin back to a pre-CL Lisp like Maclisp or Interlisp
2020-12-10T14:35:19Z phoe: nij: meaningful? wat
2020-12-10T14:35:21Z phoe: why
2020-12-10T14:35:29Z phoe: meaningful for what exactly
2020-12-10T14:35:44Z phoe: "If you wish to make apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe." -- Carl Sagan
2020-12-10T14:35:52Z nij: HA!
2020-12-10T14:36:12Z nij: And then create yourself.
2020-12-10T14:37:25Z aeth: nij: This is C, not CL, but it's a similar issue. https://web.archive.org/web/20081126183008/http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html
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2020-12-10T14:38:35Z aeth: The general solution to that issue is deterministic builds, but the CL community hasn't really talked about that yet afaik. And it's a harder problem in CL because the product is image-based
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2020-12-10T14:39:42Z nij: aeth: What does deterministic builds mean?
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2020-12-10T14:40:29Z aeth: nij: In practice, it means that it makes it so you shouldn't care about how you got the resulting product (hand-compiled, a random C compiler, another CL compiler, etc.) because it should build the same every time.
2020-12-10T14:40:56Z nij: i see
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2020-12-10T14:41:06Z aeth: Well, for a given compiler. But it means you don't have to care about the prior chain, i.e. the compiler's compiler
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2020-12-10T14:45:03Z aeth: nij: If a CL compiler is compiled in some CL implementation, and then it recompiles itself in a deterministic way (the same source producing byte-for-byte identical output) before it's used for anything else, then it doesn't matter how it got there.
2020-12-10T14:45:29Z aeth: It could've gotten there from a time-consuming hand-compilation process, CLISP, ECL, CCL, SBCL, etc., and it wouldn't matter.
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2020-12-10T14:46:18Z aeth: And you could compile it two different ways and compare to ensure that you can actually trust it.
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2020-12-10T14:48:26Z nij: (Beautiful read by Thompson :)
2020-12-10T14:49:07Z nij: I think I understand the chicken-egg problem at the next level today.
2020-12-10T14:49:10Z nij: Thanks folks.
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2020-12-10T14:54:14Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproducible_builds
2020-12-10T14:56:42Z jackdaniel: yet another level is to realize, that the egg was before the chicken, because reptiles predate birds :)
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2020-12-10T15:23:51Z jdz: Because they're predators?
2020-12-10T15:25:19Z shoshin: what a pun
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2020-12-10T15:49:28Z Lycurgus: beach, i think I may have seen you mentioned as a grad student in a text book
2020-12-10T15:51:07Z beach: Oh?
2020-12-10T15:51:10Z beach: What text book?
2020-12-10T15:51:36Z Lycurgus: Equational Logic as a Programming Language
2020-12-10T15:51:52Z beach: Oh, yes.  Mike O'Donnell was my thesis director.
2020-12-10T15:52:33Z Lycurgus: Christoph Rhodes was in same dept?
2020-12-10T15:52:43Z beach: Not at all.  Not on the same continent.
2020-12-10T15:52:59Z beach: And not at the same time either, I would think.
2020-12-10T15:53:01Z Lycurgus: someone named christoph was mentioned
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2020-12-10T15:53:23Z Lycurgus: i think I confabulated rhodes, there's more than 1 i think
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2020-12-10T15:53:52Z beach: I have the book here.  Hold on...
2020-12-10T15:54:08Z Lycurgus: yeah hoffman
2020-12-10T15:54:49Z beach: Right.  Not a student.
2020-12-10T15:55:01Z Lycurgus: ah
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2020-12-10T15:58:54Z beach: The title of my PhD thesis was "Compiling equational programs into efficient machine code"
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2020-12-10T15:59:23Z Lycurgus: was it Purdue?
2020-12-10T15:59:35Z beach: No, Johns Hopkins in Baltimore.
2020-12-10T15:59:40Z Lycurgus: ah
2020-12-10T16:00:12Z beach: Mike was there for two years only, then he moved to Chicago and I had to work on my own.
2020-12-10T16:00:24Z beach: Suited me just fine. :)
2020-12-10T16:00:31Z Lycurgus: :)
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2020-12-10T16:59:51Z nwoob: is it possible to have autocomplete while writing common lisp code in emacs. If yes can somone point me to documentation
2020-12-10T16:59:53Z nwoob: please
2020-12-10T17:00:10Z Bike: are you using slime?
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2020-12-10T17:00:20Z nwoob: yes
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2020-12-10T17:01:25Z nwoob: I just know that I can do M-x slime and slime repl opens up. I don't even know how to write and compile program in a file
2020-12-10T17:01:41Z Bike: you might want a more comprehensive introduction then
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2020-12-10T17:02:10Z nwoob: yes, could you please point me to one Bike
2020-12-10T17:02:11Z beach: nwoob: You would typically split the Emacs frame with C-x 3 and with the source code buffer in one part and the REPL in the other part.
2020-12-10T17:02:25Z Bike: but if you have slime running and edit a lisp file, you can use M-TAB or C-M-i or whatever else complete-symbol is bound to
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2020-12-10T17:02:54Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/ the project page has a few tutorials linked
2020-12-10T17:03:13Z Josh_2: nwoob: I believe I use company mode for auto completion in my code writing buffer
2020-12-10T17:03:15Z Bike: https://www.cliki.net/slime-howto this page also links some
2020-12-10T17:06:50Z nwoob: ok, thank you. I'll read those documentation
2020-12-10T17:06:59Z nwoob: and look into company-mode also
2020-12-10T17:09:08Z _death: I use C-c C-i and a lot of M-/
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2020-12-10T18:02:35Z nwoob: what's wrong in this (setf tasty 'data)
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2020-12-10T18:03:53Z nwoob: why does repl prints warning  caught WARNING:
2020-12-10T18:03:54Z nwoob: ;   undefined variable: COMMON-LISP-USER::TASTY
2020-12-10T18:04:14Z jackdaniel: probably because your code is not tasty ,)
2020-12-10T18:04:22Z jackdaniel: all variables must be defined before setting them
2020-12-10T18:04:27Z jackdaniel: i.e (defparameter tasty nil)
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2020-12-10T18:04:52Z nwoob: oh ok
2020-12-10T18:04:56Z nwoob: thanks
2020-12-10T18:05:03Z jackdaniel: putting only (setf tasty nil) without defining the variable is like assigning a value to undeclared variable (but cl is more forgiving usually)
2020-12-10T18:05:06Z jackdaniel: sure
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2020-12-10T18:58:46Z harlchen: sry if this is the wrong chan, but hunchentoot/vanilla vs. hunch..+easy-routes vs. h..+ningle vs. clack+lack.component/+builder vs. ... ; for a new web-app/parenscript for a ~cl-noob ?
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2020-12-10T19:08:53Z flip214: harlchen: I'm using HT + HT-quux - I'm happy enough with the easy-handlers, but if you have lots of routes you might wants some library on top
2020-12-10T19:10:14Z harlchen: will investigate quux, thx
2020-12-10T19:10:52Z harlchen: i'm still orienting myself partly by the cookbook and awesome-cl :)
2020-12-10T19:11:48Z flip214: minion: tell harlchen about hunchentoot-quux
2020-12-10T19:11:52Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``hunchentoot-quux''.
2020-12-10T19:12:04Z flip214: https://www.cliki.net/quux-hunchentoot
2020-12-10T19:12:05Z harlchen: i found it on the gitlab
2020-12-10T19:12:34Z flip214: I like a) the performance (no new threads) b) that it has an upper limit on threads
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2020-12-10T19:20:51Z harlchen: i already like the extensive documentation in the source of ht-quu
2020-12-10T19:20:58Z harlchen: *x
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2020-12-10T19:24:17Z olle: you guys have a lips bot?
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2020-12-10T19:27:34Z flip214: harlchen: https://paste.debian.net/1176411/
2020-12-10T19:28:10Z flip214: olle: https://github.com/stassats/lisp-bots
2020-12-10T19:28:36Z harlchen: nice, thank you, flip214
2020-12-10T19:28:51Z edgar-rft: olle: we all are lisp bots :-)
2020-12-10T19:30:36Z olle: :)
2020-12-10T19:30:39Z edgar-rft: Lisp is our master who makes us write code
2020-12-10T19:31:30Z lotuseater: I'm maybe also a bot from another planet.
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2020-12-10T19:59:42Z rumbler31_: anyone know of good gis plotting/manipulating libraries?
2020-12-10T20:00:22Z rumbler31_: my primary need right now is to just plot gps/utm data
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2020-12-10T20:07:14Z defunkydrummer: rumbler31_ there is one or more interfaces to gnuplot
2020-12-10T20:07:50Z defunkydrummer: haven't tried anyone yet
2020-12-10T20:07:56Z defunkydrummer: rumbler31_ see this for a starting point: https://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20and%20gnuplot
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2020-12-10T20:08:17Z defunkydrummer: rumbler31_ oh, i didn't read the "GIS" part of your question
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2020-12-10T20:09:06Z defunkydrummer: rumbler31_: here's a list of GIS libs, https://www.cliki.net/geospatial . This is cliki (old site) so there must be some more libs too, but it gives you a starting point
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2020-12-10T20:35:42Z tisskenzen: okay, i'm writing a syntax-case macro for my pet guile script, and have found a need to add several keywords into the pattern of the clause, because this is much cleaner to read
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2020-12-10T20:36:54Z tisskenzen: there's a problem of keyword permutations and repeating the expression after the pattern is written
2020-12-10T20:38:16Z tisskenzen: nvm, maybe i'll solve this myself
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2020-12-10T21:41:02Z harlchen: is there a native/eleganthttps://paste.debian.net/1176431/
2020-12-10T21:41:15Z harlchen: elegant enough way to get what i want https://paste.debian.net/1176431/
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2020-12-10T21:43:28Z lotuseater: did you mean (defvar *a* (make-hash-table))?
2020-12-10T21:44:02Z harlchen: ah sry no parameter >)
2020-12-10T21:45:05Z harlchen: sry i got confused
2020-12-10T21:45:16Z lotuseater: okay what's wrong?
2020-12-10T21:45:27Z harlchen: (defparameter *a* (make-hash-table))
2020-12-10T21:45:40Z harlchen: i got it right in my code, but wrong in the example
2020-12-10T21:45:49Z lotuseater: yeah but if it's not initialised DEFVAR is also good
2020-12-10T21:46:24Z lotuseater: and if you don't want *a* to be overwritten at reload DEFVAR is better than DEFPARAMETER
2020-12-10T21:46:28Z harlchen: sure
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2020-12-10T21:50:28Z harlchen: i wanted to pattern match the key of the hash table , do i have to transform it at the (match level or do i miss something obvious ?
2020-12-10T21:51:41Z White_Flame: since you're inside a PROGN, are you sure it needs to be global?  would (let ((a (make-hash-table))) ...) work for you?
2020-12-10T21:53:08Z White_Flame: also, does trivia support peering into hashtables?
2020-12-10T21:53:09Z harlchen: i see my mistake
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2020-12-10T21:53:25Z harlchen: i think it should work with guard
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2020-12-10T21:55:14Z harlchen: i can peer into the slots
2020-12-10T21:55:45Z harlchen: (match (make-hash-table) ((hash-table (:size c)) c))
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2020-12-10T23:48:07Z lotuseater: funny, i was browsing the CLX lib on github and some files have "last commit 20 years ago" or more ^^
2020-12-10T23:48:22Z phoe: if it works, don't touch it
2020-12-10T23:48:32Z phoe: 2020 wasn't a lot of time ago in CL years
2020-12-10T23:48:43Z phoe: in X years either
2020-12-10T23:49:56Z lotuseater: why should i touch it?
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2020-12-10T23:51:44Z lotuseater: I don't even know a small subset of how to use it :D big lib
2020-12-10T23:54:10Z defunkydrummer: it's used on the StumpWM window manager.
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2020-12-10T23:54:18Z defunkydrummer: it
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2020-12-10T23:54:49Z defunkydrummer: it, as I understand it, interacts directly with your X server.
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2020-12-10T23:55:00Z lotuseater: yes I know :) and on McCLIM I think
2020-12-10T23:55:17Z lotuseater: yes direct bindings to X
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2020-12-11T00:02:35Z defunkydrummer: lotuseater: no, i mean, as far as i know it's not a binding to a C library, but it implements the X protocol 100% in Lisp
2020-12-11T00:02:43Z defunkydrummer: so it directly talks to the X server
2020-12-11T00:03:13Z defunkydrummer: just as, for example, there's a postgres driver for clsql that implements the protocol directly, doesn't need any postgres lib installed previously
2020-12-11T00:03:14Z lotuseater: ahh okay, that would be even better, but I don't know
2020-12-11T00:03:56Z lotuseater: but yes that would fit to the motto "Now proudly done with 100% less C"
2020-12-11T00:04:12Z defunkydrummer: exactly
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2020-12-11T00:04:22Z defunkydrummer: "the stuff boring dreams are made of"
2020-12-11T00:04:25Z defunkydrummer: well, gotta go
2020-12-11T00:04:26Z defunkydrummer: bye bye
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2020-12-11T00:15:54Z aeth: lots of things are stable from the 90s
2020-12-11T00:16:19Z aeth: Windows probably has things last touched since then. Probably not entire files. They've probably run some automatic refactoring tool to change the header of the file or whatever.
2020-12-11T00:16:31Z aeth: s/last touched/not touched/
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2020-12-11T00:16:55Z lotuseater: thanks to the standard specification!
2020-12-11T00:17:12Z lotuseater: ok I meant for CL stuff
2020-12-11T00:22:24Z lotuseater: aeth: and so some exploits for Windows NT kernel or so still have worked on XP/Vista/7/10 :D
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2020-12-11T00:23:35Z aeth: I mean, as I've said before fairly recently here... CL shifts the burden of quite a few things onto the implementations.
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2020-12-11T00:24:06Z aeth: Most stuff doesn't ever really need updating because the implementations themselves (or, more rarely, various key libraries) handle such things instead.
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2020-12-11T00:25:05Z lotuseater: :)
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2020-12-11T00:37:32Z lotuseater: How do you usually start writing a binding or reimplementing something from scratch?
2020-12-11T00:39:04Z thmprover: Like Johnny Cash put it, one piece at a time.
2020-12-11T00:39:39Z lotuseater: yes you're right
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2020-12-11T00:53:45Z aeth: Find the smallest possible thing you could implement. Write it up as an issue in an issue tracker. Try to implement it. It'll take weeks/months because you could actually have picked a smaller increment.
2020-12-11T00:53:59Z aeth: But most importantly, never give up.
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2020-12-11T01:01:59Z nij: Despite the celebrated intro to loop (http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html), should I learn "iterate" instead?
2020-12-11T01:02:05Z nij: Or should I learn both?
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2020-12-11T01:05:27Z lotuseater: aeth: yes and understand more of the thing you want to (re)implement ^^
2020-12-11T01:05:51Z lotuseater: nij: first learn LOOP and see how you like it
2020-12-11T01:05:54Z Xach: nij: you should learn loop and iterate if you like. nobody knows *only* iterate.
2020-12-11T01:07:01Z lotuseater: here is the two pages LOOP periodic table from land of lisp for you:  https://trash.ctdo.de/file/e9c41bd6
2020-12-11T01:09:50Z lotuseater: and in PAIP one of the last chapters guides through how basic LOOP is implemented, but I must study it more in depth myself
2020-12-11T01:11:07Z nij: Thanks for the pointer to PAIP!
2020-12-11T01:11:13Z nij: Ok I will learn both.
2020-12-11T01:11:18Z nij: It's fun anyway.
2020-12-11T01:11:33Z nij: I just feel LOOP is little bit like DSL. But I came here for lisp's elegance.
2020-12-11T01:12:06Z lotuseater: yes it IS a DSL
2020-12-11T01:12:19Z lotuseater: same with FORMAT
2020-12-11T01:12:27Z no-defun-allowed: That is arguably part of the elegance.
2020-12-11T01:12:38Z nij: :(
2020-12-11T01:12:45Z nij: In a nutshell, how does iterate work?
2020-12-11T01:13:37Z lotuseater: hm, like LOOP but more lispy and extensible?
2020-12-11T01:14:01Z lotuseater: do a macroexpand on a simple LOOP expression and you'll see
2020-12-11T01:14:19Z nij: oh i mean
2020-12-11T01:14:30Z nij: does it work on first translating itself to LOOP?
2020-12-11T01:14:58Z lotuseater: no I don't think so, but maybe it could be
2020-12-11T01:17:40Z nij: Nvm I will look into that. Thanks :D
2020-12-11T01:18:19Z lotuseater: i don't see some call to LOOP in the source
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2020-12-11T01:18:34Z nij: Must be some other elegant twists.
2020-12-11T01:18:38Z nij is excited.
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2020-12-11T01:24:05Z Xach: elegance is not a design goal
2020-12-11T01:25:28Z lotuseater: it's efficiency and expressiveness, isn't it?
2020-12-11T01:26:13Z lotuseater: or am I now stucked in the LOOP? :D
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2020-12-11T01:27:22Z nij: (loop (gtd (be-efficient)))
2020-12-11T01:27:42Z nij: (loop (feel-good (gtd (be-efficient))))
2020-12-11T01:27:44Z nij: Sorry..
2020-12-11T01:28:19Z nij: Yeah I hope one can achieve elegance + efficiency + expressiveness.
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2020-12-11T03:55:21Z PuercoPop: lotuseater: It says 20 years ago because that is when they where committed to version control. The some code is even older
2020-12-11T03:56:45Z thmprover: Random question: where can I read more about readtables? I'm curious about understanding how it works exactly, I don't want to do anything with reader macros, just understand them deeper.
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2020-12-11T03:57:48Z PuercoPop: thmprover: you could checkout vacietis, which uses readtables to parse C into CL
2020-12-11T03:58:17Z thmprover: That's awesome!
2020-12-11T03:58:46Z aeth: PuercoPop: sometimes version control uses fake commits to provide the real date... I mean, that's basically what it has to be to some extent since 20 years ago predates git
2020-12-11T03:58:55Z thmprover: Also kind of amusing, because I'm tinkering around with implementing a toy lisp in C, and thinking about implementing a toy readtable is what prompted me to investigate this further.
2020-12-11T03:59:11Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/vsedach/Vacietis/blob/50c1b82a9f906c270cd8cbc7a1fe7f7281ebad2f/compiler/reader.lisp#L889
2020-12-11T03:59:29Z thmprover: PuercoPop: That is awesome, thanks :)
2020-12-11T04:00:01Z PuercoPop: aeth: Yeah, but the first commit says something like checking in FOO's version into CVS iirc. Some code there has 1985 in the headers iirc
2020-12-11T04:00:17Z lotuseater: PuercoPop: yup, with another system
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2020-12-11T04:01:19Z aeth: PuercoPop: heh, cvs
2020-12-11T04:01:26Z aeth: svn was quite the upgrade.
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2020-12-11T04:02:09Z aeth: So I guess a lot of projects went cvs->svn->git, and that's only if they didn't pick some losing thing before git, e.g. hg
2020-12-11T04:02:23Z lotuseater: PuercoPop: does f2cl also work with readtables?
2020-12-11T04:02:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-12-11T04:02:46Z PuercoPop: lotuseater: sorry I'm not familiar with f2cl, what is it?
2020-12-11T04:03:09Z thmprover: Good morning, beach!
2020-12-11T04:03:10Z lotuseater: it translates Fortran77 code
2020-12-11T04:03:11Z PuercoPop: aeth: most (all?) of hu.dwim uses darcs to this day!
2020-12-11T04:04:01Z aeth: we need to rewrite distributed version control in Lisp
2020-12-11T04:04:05Z lotuseater: darcs is great. some guy once told me "too slow for managing things like linux kernel" blabla. but that is not what it's primarily for
2020-12-11T04:04:27Z lotuseater: aeth: with patches please
2020-12-11T04:04:32Z aeth: lotuseater: ah, so darcs doesn't *scale*
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2020-12-11T04:04:38Z PuercoPop: aeth: fiddlerwoaroof has started working on that!
2020-12-11T04:04:46Z aeth: lotuseater: you have to scale on the cloud to win
2020-12-11T04:05:22Z lotuseater: hm cloud
2020-12-11T04:05:51Z lotuseater: darcs has mathematical fundament
2020-12-11T04:05:59Z PuercoPop: lotuseater: the problem with darcs is that their worst case for resolving merge conflicts is n² iirc.
2020-12-11T04:06:46Z lotuseater: yes something like that was it
2020-12-11T04:07:09Z aeth: lotuseater: I was joking when I was talking about clouds. It's all about the edge computing blockchains for XR now. :-P
2020-12-11T04:07:52Z lotuseater: all this modern stuff :D
2020-12-11T04:08:18Z lotuseater: "Fundamentally good ideas are that which stand the test of time."
2020-12-11T04:09:04Z lotuseater: s/that/those
2020-12-11T04:09:10Z aeth: PuercoPop: is the project public yet?
2020-12-11T04:09:54Z lotuseater: one can also peek into pijul source
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2020-12-11T04:10:37Z aeth: I'd say that the big problem with git is that it's distributed, but the issues, the wiki, and so on live in essentially just a handful of places (Github, Gitlab, Bitbucket, etc. And mostly just Github.)
2020-12-11T04:10:58Z PuercoPop: aeth: yeah, https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/cl-git
2020-12-11T04:11:19Z aeth: oh, just git :-/
2020-12-11T04:11:26Z aeth: I guess it's more useful
2020-12-11T04:12:21Z PuercoPop: There is a problem parsing the pack files. I've started working on in a couple of weeks ago
2020-12-11T04:12:55Z PuercoPop: aeth: I mean, first we must embrace so we can extend and extinguish later ^_^
2020-12-11T04:12:57Z lotuseater: PuercoPop: https://github.com/rtoy/f2cl
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2020-12-11T04:14:24Z PuercoPop: aeth: git is only a version control system, not a 'project manager system'. Wiki, issues seem out of scope. But you can build those on top of the same object database. If everything is in CL it would be easier to do so, or at least nicer to write imho
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2020-12-11T04:26:31Z lotuseater: îs DEFINE-SETF-EXPANDER the same as DEFINE-SETF-METHOD?
2020-12-11T04:26:47Z beach: clhs define-setf-method
2020-12-11T04:26:48Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for define-setf-method.
2020-12-11T04:26:53Z beach: See, there is no such thing.
2020-12-11T04:27:25Z lotuseater: yes I know ;) but I read about that in PAIP
2020-12-11T04:28:09Z no-defun-allowed: I guess it was called DEFINE-SETF-METHOD before ANSI Common Lisp?
2020-12-11T04:28:21Z beach: That's definitely possible.
2020-12-11T04:29:21Z no-defun-allowed: See SETF-METHOD-VS-SETF-METHOD: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss308_w.htm
2020-12-11T04:29:23Z lotuseater: ah yes that would fit :) and it's said it is a quite tricky macro ^^
2020-12-11T04:29:39Z mfiano: What is the proper way to combine features with boolean logic to control the evaluation of the next form with reader conditionals? for example feature X and not feature Y
2020-12-11T04:29:53Z no-defun-allowed: "Rationale: Avoids massive terminological confusion."
2020-12-11T04:30:28Z mfiano: s/evaluation/reading/
2020-12-11T04:31:12Z no-defun-allowed: Well, you can write #+(and x (not y)) (something), or is there something else you're thinking of?
2020-12-11T04:31:36Z mfiano: I infact did just that, but wasn't sure if the (not y) was going to behave as I'd expect.
2020-12-11T04:31:59Z mfiano: Thanks for the confirmation
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2020-12-11T04:33:38Z lotuseater: you can build conditionals which will never work unless you push some keywords on your own to *FEATURES* :) something like #+(and linux windows)
2020-12-11T04:34:12Z mfiano: True, implementations may use any such symbols. But, we have trivial-features for that.
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2020-12-11T04:37:29Z lotuseater: as I got to know #+ and #- I first thought it expands the code into WHEN and UNLESS forms but because it doesn't even produces NIL for false forms you know it's really commented out
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2020-12-11T04:42:23Z lotuseater: OK you have runtime in between for checking the membership of the keyword
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2020-12-11T04:44:03Z mfiano: Every phase of the evaluation model can invoke any other. That's the main reason I have stayed with Lisp for 15 years. It allows for very interesting solutions to problems in my domain.
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2020-12-11T04:47:47Z lotuseater: yes I know
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2020-12-11T05:09:12Z PuercoPop: Is there a way to view/treat a multi-dimensional array as a sequence/vector? II want to use COUNT-IF on the array.
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2020-12-11T05:18:54Z beach: clhs make-array
2020-12-11T05:18:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm
2020-12-11T05:19:29Z beach: PuercoPop: See the :DISPLACED-TO keyword argument.
2020-12-11T05:21:08Z beach: PuercoPop: Alternatively, you can loop on the raw-major indices of the array and use the COUNT LOOP keyword.
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2020-12-11T05:22:40Z PuercoPop: beach: thanks, wasn't aware of displaced-to. I'll probably go the LOOP+COUNT clause now that you bring it up
2020-12-11T05:23:32Z beach: Sure.  Good luck!
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2020-12-11T07:55:10Z phoe: morning
2020-12-11T07:56:01Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe.
2020-12-11T07:57:52Z beach: Hey phoe.
2020-12-11T08:00:30Z phoe: hi hey
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2020-12-11T08:00:59Z infosec_yo: i think lisp is bloated.
2020-12-11T08:01:14Z lotuseater: ok and now?
2020-12-11T08:01:18Z no-defun-allowed: Too bad.
2020-12-11T08:01:43Z infosec_yo: its also insecure.
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2020-12-11T08:02:01Z flip214: infosec_yo: any more opinions we should know?
2020-12-11T08:02:16Z flip214: you'll excuse if our experience differs.
2020-12-11T08:02:33Z infosec_yo: when is lisp getting deprecated ?
2020-12-11T08:02:40Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe
2020-12-11T08:02:42Z phoe has set mode +b *!*sid476935@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ezccxoibyygulirl
2020-12-11T08:02:42Z infosec_yo [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (infosec_yo)
2020-12-11T08:02:43Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe
2020-12-11T08:02:51Z phoe: please carry on
2020-12-11T08:02:57Z flip214: not enough patience lately, phoe?
2020-12-11T08:03:00Z flip214: ;)
2020-12-11T08:03:03Z lotuseater: thx phoe
2020-12-11T08:03:06Z no-defun-allowed: Aw, I was thinking of a retort, but "when is your big mouth getting deprecated" is a bit poor.
2020-12-11T08:03:07Z phoe: flip214: I kinda recognize the person.
2020-12-11T08:03:31Z phoe: they used to post the "lisp sucks" quality content from webchats multiple times before.
2020-12-11T08:03:54Z lotuseater: i think phoe ran out of patience with such bloated people since recently
2020-12-11T08:04:16Z phoe: and as for patience, well. I think you know everything.
2020-12-11T08:04:18Z flip214: I guess you just saved me quite a bit of time
2020-12-11T08:04:27Z flip214: that I'll now use for me tel conferences ;/
2020-12-11T08:04:37Z phoe: ha, yes
2020-12-11T08:04:42Z flip214: no, I don't know everything.... but I can guess that small detail
2020-12-11T08:04:51Z phoe: flip214: so you know everything enough
2020-12-11T08:07:07Z lotuseater: maybe infosec_yo is one of those self-claimed experts with unlimited knowledge too
2020-12-11T08:10:43Z flip214: If you know all you see your horizon might be too near
2020-12-11T08:11:01Z Nilby: I'm pretty sure that's someone who's been trolling Lisp communities for like 20 years, saying "lisp is dead", etc. It's funny that there's still something to troll then.
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2020-12-11T08:11:54Z lotuseater: there's always more to learn, even for a master
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2020-12-11T09:50:45Z splittist: It's so great having the Online Lisp Meetings recorded and available to watch. Thanks to all involved!
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2020-12-11T09:53:09Z phoe: splittist: <3
2020-12-11T09:53:26Z phoe: (if you want to talk about something yourself, I'm accepting videos all the time)
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2020-12-11T10:30:41Z flip214: where can they be found?
2020-12-11T10:31:13Z phoe: the videos?
2020-12-11T10:31:20Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgq_B39Y_kKD9_sdCeE5SufaeAtbYPv80
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2020-12-11T10:32:18Z splittist: Colleen should know this (if we want to keep the topic line clean). Perhaps she/it does...
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2020-12-11T10:34:33Z phoe: minion: tell splittist about olm
2020-12-11T10:34:33Z minion: splittist: olm: Online Lisp Meetings: mailgroup at https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/online-lisp-meets/ and videos at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgq_B39Y_kKD9_sdCeE5SufaeAtbYPv80
2020-12-11T10:34:37Z phoe: done
2020-12-11T10:35:03Z splittist is happy
2020-12-11T10:35:09Z phoe: me too, thanks; good idea
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2020-12-11T10:36:14Z pyc: What package does Portacle use to customize the status line and ask for additional confirmation while creating new files?
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2020-12-11T10:50:19Z flip214: thanks
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2020-12-11T11:37:46Z luis: Hot take: UIOP is a pretty decent set of utilities. (I just wish the source was easier to navigate and read.)
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2020-12-11T11:48:05Z Xach: Fewer people would use uiop if it were not tied inextricably to asdf.
2020-12-11T11:48:24Z phoe: ^
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2020-12-11T11:48:41Z jackdaniel: fact that it is tied to asdf is slightly problematic, because you can't bundle it properly like other libraries
2020-12-11T11:48:51Z phoe: note that's not saying anything about the quality of uiop code, just about the way in which it is distributed
2020-12-11T11:48:51Z luis: That is true. But I'm enjoying its pathname utilities, for instance.
2020-12-11T11:48:56Z jackdaniel: for slad implementations it doesn't matter much though
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2020-12-11T11:49:13Z luis: jackdaniel: uiop is available standalone (in quicklisp too), isn't it?
2020-12-11T11:49:23Z jackdaniel: yes, but since it is a preloaded system, quicklisp won't download it
2020-12-11T11:49:24Z phoe: luis: by the time you have loaded quicklisp, uiop is already there.
2020-12-11T11:49:25Z Nilby: Somehow I usually find it easiest to investigate uiop code by looking at the catted asdf.lisp file.
2020-12-11T11:49:34Z jackdaniel: you must put it manually in the registry
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2020-12-11T11:50:20Z luis: jackdaniel: perhaps ASDF should bundle a copy of UIOP (or the subset it uses) under a different package name.
2020-12-11T11:50:42Z jackdaniel: I've suggested that once, that suggestion wasn't accepted
2020-12-11T11:51:07Z jackdaniel: (back at the time when fare was still maintaining it)
2020-12-11T11:51:09Z luis: Well, we could fork UIOP and give it a new name. That would achieve the goal. :D
2020-12-11T11:51:40Z jackdaniel: I think that folks would still use /preloaded/ uiop assuming that it is always there
2020-12-11T11:52:02Z luis: Yeah, and the world probably doesn't need another utility library. :)
2020-12-11T11:52:03Z jackdaniel: that design decision (to bundle it with asdf) actively encourages bad practices
2020-12-11T11:52:30Z jackdaniel: (i.e not putting uiop in depends-on clause and assuming that it is always there along asdf)
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2020-12-11T11:52:52Z jackdaniel: but that ship has already sailed years ago
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2020-12-11T11:56:16Z varjag: so i have a macro which has required and keyword parameters
2020-12-11T11:56:52Z phoe: varjag: OK - I am imagining something like (defmacro foo ((bar &key baz quux) &body body) ...)
2020-12-11T11:56:52Z varjag: but i want it to pass on exta unspecified keyword parameters (which it could use internally for make-instance)
2020-12-11T11:56:59Z phoe: &allow-other-keys
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2020-12-11T11:57:14Z jackdaniel: &rest args &key a b c &allow-other-keys
2020-12-11T11:57:18Z phoe: or just use &rest kwargs &key ... &allow-other-kes
2020-12-11T11:57:23Z phoe: yes, what jackdaniel said
2020-12-11T11:57:43Z varjag: ah so it would wind up in &rest
2020-12-11T11:58:38Z phoe: yes, and then you either just (apply #'make-instance ... ',args) or (make-instance ... ,@args)
2020-12-11T11:58:43Z phoe: depending on how your macro is structured.
2020-12-11T11:58:55Z jackdaniel: if you have some keyword arguments  that you don't want in make-instance (but they are important for the macro), you may use remf on args
2020-12-11T11:59:20Z varjag: thanks folks very helpful
2020-12-11T11:59:23Z phoe: jackdaniel: that's actually a bit troublesome because REMF only removes the first occurrence
2020-12-11T11:59:43Z phoe: alexandria:remove-from-plistf fixes this, AFAIR
2020-12-11T11:59:57Z phoe: the issue is that (foo :bar 2 :bar 3 :bar 4) is a well-formed plist
2020-12-11T12:00:10Z phoe: I mean, uhh, s/is/contains/
2020-12-11T12:00:39Z jackdaniel: interesting, thanks for this information
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2020-12-11T12:10:58Z luis: phoe: that tip seems PSA-worthy
2020-12-11T12:11:33Z phoe: luis: I can blog about it sure thing
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2020-12-11T12:13:12Z phoe: or, uhhhh. maybe not. I'll pass and leave it to some other person because blogging in my current state of mind is dangerous.
2020-12-11T12:14:50Z Nilby has probably never been in a "not dangerous to blog" state of mind.
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2020-12-11T12:30:19Z luis: phoe: I can review the blog post if you'd like or I could take the opportunity to blog for the first time in 2 years or so
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2020-12-11T12:30:34Z jackdaniel: luis: do it! take the opportunity
2020-12-11T12:30:54Z jackdaniel: maybe you'll warm up and then you'll write something about cffi or slime :-)
2020-12-11T12:31:05Z phoe: luis: please take it
2020-12-11T12:31:22Z phoe: I need to find a new blogging platform because movim screws up code blocks even years after I highlighted it to them.
2020-12-11T12:31:43Z luis: I'm surprised Google hasn't killed Blogger yet.
2020-12-11T12:32:17Z luis: Must still be a source of AdSense revenew.
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2020-12-11T14:03:27Z devon: Howdy Lispers, how best to adapt a Scheme program to run in Common Lisp?
2020-12-11T14:03:41Z phoe: devon: depends on the Scheme program
2020-12-11T14:03:44Z phoe: how large is it?
2020-12-11T14:03:53Z phoe: what language features does it use?
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2020-12-11T14:03:59Z devon: Smallish and probably no Lisp1/2 issues.
2020-12-11T14:04:18Z phoe: call/cc?
2020-12-11T14:04:26Z beach: devon: It also depends on whether you want the result to just work, or whether you also want it to be maintainable as Common Lisp.
2020-12-11T14:04:57Z devon: Unlikely.  The result should be maintainable CL code.
2020-12-11T14:04:58Z phoe: then just rewrite all DEFINEs to be DEFUNs and DEFVARs/DEFPARAMETERs and either adjust function names to CL or define your own mini-scheme-like environment.
2020-12-11T14:05:52Z aeth: You can progressively rewrite it if you do the latter, i.e. running a Scheme environment inside of CL.
2020-12-11T14:05:54Z devon: I'm amazed I can't find a tool for this.
2020-12-11T14:06:01Z aeth: I mean.
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2020-12-11T14:06:13Z phoe: a tool for automatic rewriting? I don't think there can exist one
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2020-12-11T14:06:27Z phoe: mostly because of lisp-1/lisp-2 issues and because of lack of continuations in CL.
2020-12-11T14:06:37Z phoe: you could get a compiler from scheme to CL, and this is what aeth will write about in a few seconds.
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2020-12-11T14:07:09Z aeth: The problem is that compiling Scheme to CL in a semantics-preserving way isn't just going to MACROEXPAND-1 you idiomatic CL.
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2020-12-11T14:07:35Z phoe: scheme and CL are only similar because of the parentheses and common operator name; they have different paradigms under the hood and this is what simple source translation is going to miss.
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2020-12-11T14:08:30Z aeth: There's only really two runtime incompatabilities. CL doesn't guarantee tail recursion to be optimized, while Scheme does, meaning that Scheme's idiomatic iteration relies on it while in CL it's implementation-specific, and even then relying on OPTIMIZE levels.
2020-12-11T14:08:42Z devon: LOL, sure.  Punt in the face of call/cc, xref all the names to help resolve any Lisp1/2 issues, define ⟶ either defvar or defun, not too hairy.
2020-12-11T14:08:51Z aeth: And, of course, continuations, but if the program doesn't contain call/cc, then there doesn't have to be special handling.
2020-12-11T14:09:44Z aeth: And technically, both of these are "runtime-incompatabilities" only if you wanted to generate idiomatic CL.
2020-12-11T14:09:53Z aeth: Since you can emulate these without an interpreter.
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2020-12-11T14:10:21Z Bike: so all you need to redo is the entire macro system, local and nonlocal flow control, and call syntax
2020-12-11T14:10:24Z Bike: so easy
2020-12-11T14:10:42Z devon: LOL, that's why I'm asking.
2020-12-11T14:10:53Z edgar-rft: In my experience the main problem is that in Scheme only the core language is specified, there exist many Scheme implementations that's code doesn't run on other Scheme implementations. This means thet you always have to look what Scheme implementation the code was written for.
2020-12-11T14:10:57Z aeth: Bike: On the one hand, it's < 10,000 lines of code. On the other, it's < 10,000 lines of code of Common Lisp and Scheme, not C.
2020-12-11T14:11:01Z Bike: the standard libraries are also different, scheme has its "ports" or whatever instead of streams, record types instead of structs, etc...
2020-12-11T14:12:16Z Bike: oh, and scheme programs may try to distinguish the empty list and false.
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2020-12-11T14:13:29Z aeth: Well, (car nil) is an error in Scheme, so even CAR needs to be different. But the standard libraries mostly just have minor incompatabilities like that. You could in theory do it all at the macro level instead of defining trivial functions, but it wouldn't really give you much.
2020-12-11T14:13:42Z Bike: it's nice to be optimistic
2020-12-11T14:14:20Z aeth: #f is absolutely a good point because your Scheme program will reverse every IF to look like (if* (eq condition #f) false-path true-path) instead of (if condition true-path false-path)
2020-12-11T14:14:22Z devon: Perhaps the grass only looks greener an the Scheme side but I sense Scheme libraries are fewer but better, having glanced at an API or so.
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2020-12-11T14:15:26Z aeth: devon: Well, the left-pads only come later. The initial libraries of any language are all important.
2020-12-11T14:17:50Z devon: The original Scheme was implemented in MacLisp, very close to Common Lisp, e.g., RABBIT by GLS IIRC.
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2020-12-11T14:18:20Z aeth: And, more recently, there was Pseudoscheme for, I think, r4rs
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2020-12-11T14:18:40Z aeth: Although it was only pseudo because it didn't actually address all of the interesting incompatabilities, which have only grown since then.
2020-12-11T14:19:53Z devon: So nobody's heard of any more recent effort, not in QL anyway.  I'll start with C-M-% and see how it goes.
2020-12-11T14:19:55Z aeth: For instance, #f vs nil used to just be a recommendation. Same with case-sensitivity (which you can technically do in your Scheme-in-CL, if you want to have to CAPITALIZE every foreign CL call) and even hygienic macros, which iirc were an appendix in r4rs.
2020-12-11T14:20:31Z aeth: devon: I've heard of a more recent effort, but it's not going to be useful for you if you have any deadline because it's incomplete.
2020-12-11T14:21:00Z devon: LOL, well, cool, no deadline, please tell me more.
2020-12-11T14:21:11Z aeth: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme
2020-12-11T14:21:35Z aeth: I would've linked to it earlier, but I was hoping that Bike would elaborate more on why the task was impossible rather than just calling me optimistic.
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2020-12-11T14:22:57Z devon: For this particular wee chunk of code, probably easy.
2020-12-11T14:26:30Z devon: Never ran into this author before but https://gitlab.com/mbabich/lisp-hello-world is hilarious.
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2020-12-11T14:31:20Z phoe: mbabich, ah yes
2020-12-11T14:31:25Z phoe: we know him around here
2020-12-11T14:31:43Z phoe: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/trivial-left-pad
2020-12-11T14:31:51Z phoe: his greatest contribution to Common Lisp library ecosystem
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2020-12-11T14:34:53Z aeth: devon: If there's a Scheme library that you want to run, the best thing to do would be to run it via Airship Scheme when it's ready, so you don't have to worry about translating it. Or, if it's code, librarify it.
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2020-12-11T14:46:37Z luis: phoe: "left-pad is the perfect example of the new frontier of software engineering." nice
2020-12-11T14:46:56Z phoe: luis: the most important package on the Internet
2020-12-11T14:47:04Z phoe: remove it, and half of the world's software stops building!
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2020-12-11T14:47:10Z phoe: ;; /s
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2020-12-11T14:49:15Z Nilby: t-l-p is so flawlessly executed with almost no hint of sarcasm.
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2020-12-11T14:57:32Z edgar-rft: three-little-pigs ?
2020-12-11T14:58:42Z luis: edgar-rft: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/trivial-left-pad
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2020-12-11T15:29:00Z devon: Airship-Scheme looks reasonable at a glance but why do I feel an vague sense of having been rick-rolled?
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2020-12-11T15:53:02Z Nilby: If it works, who cares if it's a joke?
2020-12-11T15:54:01Z Nilby: but actually I think mbabich's coding is quite good
2020-12-11T15:54:59Z lotuseater: First thing I found to this is "Imperial Airship Scheme" :D
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2020-12-11T16:02:43Z aeth: That made me wonder if anything on Github uses it. https://github.com/search?p=1&q=trivial-left-pad&type=Code
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2020-12-11T16:04:43Z aeth: The answer is... sort of. A document uses it for some examples. https://github.com/40ants/lisp-project-of-the-day/blob/ea74c4c897e31a5f53ed45505538250531490431/content/2020/09/0181-trivial-left-pad.org
2020-12-11T16:05:28Z devon: Hmm, incompatible syntax… (define 2p⟵Invalid numerical syntax. [Condition of type AIRSHIP-SCHEME::SCHEME-READER-ERROR]
2020-12-11T16:06:00Z aeth: devon: chibi-scheme behaves the same way
2020-12-11T16:06:08Z devon: My vague sense of unease was not the Airship-Scheme code but skipping breakfast.
2020-12-11T16:06:43Z aeth: The issue is that R6RS specifies exactly what's an invalid number and what's a symbol. That is, 2p is invalid. Whereas R7RS leaves it up to the implementation.
2020-12-11T16:07:17Z aeth: On the other hand, both Racket and CL are a lot more lenient and permit '2p
2020-12-11T16:07:37Z aeth: (although it looks like SBCL prints '2p as |2P| so it escapes the output, but doesn't require it for the input)
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2020-12-11T16:08:11Z lotuseater: typing '2p gives |2P|
2020-12-11T16:08:18Z lotuseater: oh you were faster :)
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2020-12-11T16:12:07Z devon: If R7RS affords the option, I'll make it configurable.
2020-12-11T16:12:56Z aeth: Airship Scheme can't use the host CL's reader for this because its symbol-vs-number syntax is different (e.g. Scheme has complex syntax for its complex numbers, and it has a literal infnan) and because it uses a hack to get compatible symbols.
2020-12-11T16:13:00Z aeth: It manually inverts the (hopefully just non-Unicode) case to read car as CAR and then print it back out again it as car (which as to be non-Unicode, or at least not fully Unicode, to be reversible).
2020-12-11T16:13:16Z aeth: s/which as/which has/
2020-12-11T16:13:37Z devon: We're stuck with #C(0 1) instead of 0+1i
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2020-12-11T16:16:57Z jackdaniel: #i2+3 ;)
2020-12-11T16:17:02Z aeth: The thing is, 2p isn't a problematic symbol. 2389748939023.0e34p is a problematic symbol.
2020-12-11T16:17:36Z aeth: My guess is both CLs and Racket have to build both the symbol string and the number in parallel. Or they build a string and then read it into a number. Neither are necessary if you don't permit such things.
2020-12-11T16:19:06Z aeth: jackdaniel: sorry, #i is for infix
2020-12-11T16:19:39Z jackdaniel: not in my readtable ^_^
2020-12-11T16:19:54Z jackdaniel: in my readtable #i is not defined
2020-12-11T16:20:24Z aeth: jackdaniel: next thing you're going to tell me is that you don't have a #h reader macro for hash tables, either :o
2020-12-11T16:20:38Z jackdaniel: that's correct!
2020-12-11T16:20:41Z aeth: do you even reader macro?
2020-12-11T16:21:10Z jackdaniel: sure, #l(list 'literal-lambda %1), but only in repl
2020-12-11T16:27:25Z aeth: devon: In case you're wondering, I'm taking a week off from Airship Scheme now that the reader is standard (oh no, it has been a week now!) before attempting to fix the continuation passing style stuff (which will eventually provide if, lambda, and a hardcoded, inelegant define). The reader is R7RS standard, not CL standard.
2020-12-11T16:28:23Z aeth: I guess in the long run I could make it bilingual CL/Scheme, at least as an option, with a handful of exceptions, like the custom case inversion instead of case upcasing.
2020-12-11T16:29:16Z aeth: It seems like a lot of work, though, so it wouldn't be a plan for 1.0
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2020-12-11T16:33:00Z aeth: Maybe I could switch symbols to using an invert readtable case instead of manually doing it. The implementation does guarantee that it must be done in pairs (and thus can't be Unicode), which might be good enough. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/13_adcd.htm
2020-12-11T16:33:20Z phoe: this part of CLHS is incompatible with unicode
2020-12-11T16:33:25Z aeth: It still has the problem of when something is a number in Scheme, but not in CL.
2020-12-11T16:33:44Z aeth: phoe: And it's the correct decision because it's the only thing that makes :invert possible.
2020-12-11T16:35:11Z aeth: Unicode case can't apply to characters, only to strings. The various issues in one line of non-portable SBCL: (values (sb-unicode:uppercase "ß") (sb-unicode:uppercase "i") (sb-unicode:uppercase "i" :locale :tr) (sb-unicode:lowercase (sb-unicode:uppercase "ς")))
2020-12-11T16:36:28Z aeth: The only issue is that sb-unicode is, well, sb-unicode. Someone needs to make it portable because the equivalents aren't as good.
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2020-12-11T16:37:38Z mfiano: Did you know SBCL's reader also asciifies unicode?
2020-12-11T16:38:34Z aeth: By the way, the R7RS-small version of Scheme does it the wrong way, and tries to use full Unicode case algorithms on characters, which means that #\ß cannot possibly have a good upcase.
2020-12-11T16:39:01Z mfiano: (I'm not happy about that btw)
2020-12-11T16:39:47Z aeth: mfiano: Well, depending on what you mean, I guess I can't just assume that I can just use the implementation's :invert when it isn't a potential number, then.
2020-12-11T16:39:54Z mfiano: (char (symbol-name 'foo²) 3) => #\2
2020-12-11T16:40:42Z aeth: Not like it would be that good of a solution, anyway, since +foo+ is read as a potential number thanks to the + and a slight incompatability between my manual case-invert for '+foo+ vs. the implementation's :invert for 'foo+ would be really confusing
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2020-12-11T16:41:22Z aeth: or, in this case, I guess +foo²+ vs. foo²+
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2020-12-11T16:44:25Z Nilby: If you want it bad enough, Lisp can read anything : ihttps://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2189#2189 (read-from-string "0+1i") => #C(0 1)
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2020-12-11T16:46:35Z lotuseater: i now think to try writing some dump readmacro with three components
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2020-12-11T16:47:30Z lotuseater: Nilby: oh this is what *READ-INTERN* is for, never used it yet
2020-12-11T16:47:41Z aeth: So I guess if I want a bilingual reader I'm going to have to reinvent readtable case (to implement my own :invert) and have my own, incompatible readtable concept.
2020-12-11T16:47:59Z aeth: Alternatively, I guess that I could use the implementation's readtable; get the readtable case from it, using the READTABLE-CASE accessor; and then manually do symbol reading based on that information.
2020-12-11T16:48:20Z aeth: All of these are questions that I don't really want to deal with before I even have the basic, standards-compliant Scheme running, though.
2020-12-11T16:49:52Z Nilby: Darn. I forgot you guys don't have *read-intern* yet. You could substitute a set of #\0 - #\9 number reader macros, but it's quite a bit more involved.
2020-12-11T16:50:15Z lotuseater: yes now I see it's not part of the standard :D never mind
2020-12-11T16:50:21Z aeth: Nilby: re https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2189#2189
2020-12-11T16:50:24Z aeth: I mean it works
2020-12-11T16:50:36Z aeth: But it creates an intermediate symbol, I think?
2020-12-11T16:51:01Z aeth: This can be problematic, although it's technically case-insensitive in Scheme so supporting both 4+i and 4+I wouldn't be incompatible
2020-12-11T16:51:32Z Nilby: *read-intern* is a function the reader calles to intern symbols. it gets passed a string
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2020-12-11T16:52:36Z Nilby: I mean you wouldn't want to do this for real, e.g. ppcre:split is a bit heavy for a reader thing.
2020-12-11T16:53:25Z Nilby: I don't see where it creates an intermediate symbol.
2020-12-11T16:53:40Z aeth: There's probably a bunch of reader macro magic that can do exactly what I want to do (with the major issue being the semantics of certain things like mfiano's example in SBCL), but I went down that route for the initial cl-scheme (from which only standard-procedures.lisp survives) and even just doing #t and #f was hard.
2020-12-11T16:54:03Z aeth: (In that particular case, that's because they're dispatch reader macros, and that means you get to handle things like #43t. Additionally, balancing parentheses with them is a nightmare.)
2020-12-11T16:54:43Z aeth: Nilby: An intermediate string is still more than what I do. I go character-by-character and don't need to build up a string at all, except for symbols and, obviously, strings.
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2020-12-11T16:55:16Z Nilby: aeth: That is quite sensible. I was just seeing how to do it for fun.
2020-12-11T16:55:17Z aeth: An advantage of our number system over Roman numerals is that you can just parse things character-by-character.
2020-12-11T16:56:24Z aeth: Parsing "IV" vs. "III" where the "I" means two different things is something that I guess could be done, but by the time you handle all of that type of syntax, you might as well just use cl-ppcre on a string
2020-12-11T16:56:26Z lotuseater: how do i catch the numarg in a dispatch macro character?
2020-12-11T16:57:13Z lotuseater: aeth: yes Romans weren't as good at math, maybe just for building stuff
2020-12-11T16:58:21Z aeth: The Romans had surprisingly advanced math that they stole from the Greeks, including a proto-calculus. This sort of thing didn't go away until centuries after the start of the empire. Everything's much harder with the wrong notation, though. Everything.
2020-12-11T16:58:30Z beach: lotuseater: It's the argument of the dispatch function.
2020-12-11T16:59:14Z lotuseater: ah hm alright
2020-12-11T16:59:55Z lotuseater: normally i do (lambda (stream char1 char2) ...) or something
2020-12-11T17:01:13Z beach: Let me see if I can find the information...
2020-12-11T17:01:57Z beach: clhs 2.1.4.4
2020-12-11T17:01:57Z specbot: Macro Characters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_add.htm
2020-12-11T17:02:26Z aeth: There are three things in notation that really changed everything in a simplifying way that really could have come up at any time in history. Arabic numerals (with positional digits), algebra (using a bunch of letters instead of prose), and s-expressions (perfectly regular syntax instead of a mix of prefix/postfix/infix/etc. in the two-dimensional (because of e.g. fractions) language of written mathematics).
2020-12-11T17:02:48Z beach: lotuseater: Last sentence of next-to-last paragraph.
2020-12-11T17:03:29Z lotuseater: ah so it's written that the reader after reading the dispatch char reads in an integer as long as the second char shows up?
2020-12-11T17:03:38Z beach: "The reader macro function associated with the sub-character C2 is invoked with three arguments: the stream, the sub-character C2, and the infix parameter P.
2020-12-11T17:04:17Z beach: lotuseater: Something like that, yes.
2020-12-11T17:04:48Z beach: Either way, the infix parameter is passed as the last argument to the dispatch function.
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2020-12-11T17:07:52Z Nilby: But Babylonian numbers are positional and almost homoiconic. But I love that I can do this (format t "~36r" #36rfizzle)
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2020-12-11T17:27:12Z lotuseater: Nilby: i once did (setq *read-base* 36) and then i everything got messy :D
2020-12-11T17:28:02Z Nilby: lotuseater: Nice. That should be in a "code your way out of this" challenge.
2020-12-11T17:29:11Z Nilby: Another fun "code your way out of this" is (delete-package :cl).
2020-12-11T17:31:20Z lotuseater: yes a friend was over, we got laughing very much but didn't achieve it
2020-12-11T17:31:57Z lotuseater: he is not a lisper but recognizes and respects the power of it
2020-12-11T17:32:51Z Nilby: I wonder if there's any other language where you can do something like set *read-base*
2020-12-11T17:33:10Z lotuseater: hm sparely i think
2020-12-11T17:33:26Z Nilby: It seems like it's use is for reading data.
2020-12-11T17:34:39Z lotuseater: i have a package with functions to transform integers to base i-1 (#c(-1 1)), in default *READ-BASE* is limited to bases 2-36 but that's good so
2020-12-11T17:35:07Z lotuseater: yes you should change read-base just in lexical scopes
2020-12-11T17:38:01Z lotuseater: beach: ah yes now i recognize again, lambda lists for dispatch readmacros in Let over Lambda have (stream sub-char numarg)
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2020-12-11T17:39:29Z Alfr_: lotuseater, (|SETF| |*READ-BASE*| a) will do the trick.
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2020-12-11T17:40:02Z lotuseater: thx Alfr_ :)
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2020-12-11T17:42:07Z lotuseater: hm if i do normal stuff after that it's stuck in base 36 o_O
2020-12-11T17:43:03Z Nilby: or #10r10 in case someone did (setf *read-base* (random 37))
2020-12-11T17:43:48Z jasom: Nilby: or just 10.
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2020-12-11T17:45:23Z Nilby: jasom: That doesn't seem to work.
2020-12-11T17:46:03Z Alfr_: jasom, in read-base > 10, "10" would be read to an integer with value read-base, not decimal 10.
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2020-12-11T17:46:19Z jasom: Not "10" "10."
2020-12-11T17:47:24Z beach: lotuseater: So it works?
2020-12-11T17:47:28Z Alfr_: That should work. Nice to be reminded of the one notation I really dislike. :D
2020-12-11T17:47:29Z jasom: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/02_cbaa.htm
2020-12-11T17:47:38Z Nilby: Sorry, I read . as period not decimal_point
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2020-12-11T17:48:16Z jasom: reasonable confuse
2020-12-11T17:48:20Z jasom: *confusion
2020-12-11T17:49:06Z Nilby: I strive for reasonableness in my confusion. :)
2020-12-11T17:52:16Z jasom: I assume the "." suffix is why there is #b #x #o but not #d
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2020-12-11T17:54:01Z lotuseater: beach: no not entirely the way expected or hoped to :)
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2020-12-11T18:10:24Z dbotton: Is there a way to have a non dynamic defvar? (Ie a true global in the c sense)
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2020-12-11T18:12:57Z phoe: dbotton: yes
2020-12-11T18:12:59Z phoe: (ql:quickload :global-vars)
2020-12-11T18:13:10Z phoe: this defines a global lexical variable
2020-12-11T18:13:45Z dbotton: Usable between threads?
2020-12-11T18:15:02Z phoe: AFAIK yes
2020-12-11T18:16:40Z dbotton: Great thanks
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2020-12-11T18:53:10Z nij: Does anyone here have extensive experiences with both cl and clojure?
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2020-12-11T18:53:53Z nij: Uh internet got cut out. Not sure if my message went out..
2020-12-11T18:53:53Z jackdaniel: I can denounce a few people, but I'm not sure if they are willing to be denounced ,)
2020-12-11T18:53:58Z jackdaniel: it went
2020-12-11T18:54:01Z nij: Oh
2020-12-11T18:54:08Z defunkydrummer: nij: Uh oh, the clojure versus common lisp debate again...
2020-12-11T18:54:20Z nij: Ok.. I just hope to get some comparison between them.
2020-12-11T18:54:21Z jackdaniel: not really versus, just overlapping experience
2020-12-11T18:54:28Z nij: defunkydrummer: no I had not experience with clojure.
2020-12-11T18:55:46Z defunkydrummer: nij: you can search the r/Lisp reddit, because the comparisons between CL and clojure have been done many times over and over again
2020-12-11T18:56:02Z nij: defunkydrummer: that sounds like a legit approach.
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2020-12-11T18:56:13Z nij: Ok! Then I won't toxic this place xD
2020-12-11T18:56:33Z defunkydrummer: nij: suffice to say, i don't like benevolent dictators in my language, i like having many fully-featured implementations, and Java libs should be optional, not entangled within the language. Thus, i choose Common Lisp
2020-12-11T18:57:25Z defunkydrummer: nij: and if you need to interact between lisp and java libraries, there's a common lisp implementation called "Armed Bear Common Lisp" (ABCL) that lets you call java libs very easily; a piece of cake. So this isn't an advantage that is exclusive to Clojure.
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2020-12-11T18:58:05Z defunkydrummer: nij: additionally, most or all the clever constructs for functional programming/etc are also available on common lisp by simply importing libraries, so no big deal either
2020-12-11T18:58:06Z jackdaniel: that resembles comparison I've heard in the past: clojure is an opinionated language (it helps the programmer to do the right thing, while the right thing is defiend by the clojure designer opinion), while common lisp gives you a large toolbox and lets you hang yourself
2020-12-11T18:58:18Z jackdaniel: (so it is up to the programmer to execute their opinions)
2020-12-11T18:58:26Z defunkydrummer: jackdaniel: Hooray for euthanasia!
2020-12-11T18:58:44Z jackdaniel: that's not what I meant of course :_)
2020-12-11T18:58:54Z nij: Yeah I get cl is great and minimal in that sense.
2020-12-11T18:59:09Z nij: But on the other hand, I also worry the size of the community.
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2020-12-11T19:00:30Z nij: jackdaniel: How about Scheme?
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2020-12-11T19:00:43Z nij: I've heard that Scheme is more minimal than common lisp.
2020-12-11T19:00:45Z jackdaniel: if you like lego it shoudl be fine
2020-12-11T19:00:55Z nij: Does it make Scheme even less opinionated?
2020-12-11T19:01:08Z jackdaniel: I need to spend now some time with my family, so I'm going afk
2020-12-11T19:01:08Z defunkydrummer: nij: size of the community is a plus. We know each other and we support each other in brotherly love, infinte kindness, and expansive wisdom.
2020-12-11T19:01:18Z nij: xD
2020-12-11T19:01:30Z jackdaniel: I'd say that scheme is opinionated: functional programming, purity, sterile macros etc
2020-12-11T19:01:36Z defunkydrummer: nij: scheme is a great language. Used to be small but with the latest scheme spec it might not be so small today
2020-12-11T19:01:38Z jackdaniel: that said, it is offtopic here :)
2020-12-11T19:01:45Z jackdaniel: have a good evening \o
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2020-12-11T19:02:53Z defunkydrummer: nij: common lisp used to be known as a very "big" language but only because it included a standard library within the language. When you compare it to the standard libraries of Python (which are part of the language as well), CL isn't big anymore. Yet its essentials provide more than what Python brings to the table, just to pick a lanugage for comparison.
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2020-12-11T19:03:38Z nij: I see.
2020-12-11T19:03:43Z defunkydrummer: nij: in 1984, when CL was defined in a book, languages didn't come with any big standard library, only minimal stuff. CL was one of the first "battery-included" languages
2020-12-11T19:04:05Z nij: I find myself caring less and less about minimalism as I grow :(((((
2020-12-11T19:04:16Z defunkydrummer: nij: good growth
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2020-12-11T19:04:40Z defunkydrummer: nij: sometimes languages are designed minimal because this makes the implementation/compiler be easy to write. Those lazy compiler writers!!
2020-12-11T19:04:44Z nij: Then shouldn't I choose clojure then? I like lisp for its expressiveness.. and clojure has that too.
2020-12-11T19:04:45Z phoe: nij: that's good
2020-12-11T19:04:57Z defunkydrummer: nij: so the lazyness of compiler writers become extra effort for the everyday developer, the common man
2020-12-11T19:05:05Z phoe: clojure, compared to CL, is paradigmatically challenged
2020-12-11T19:05:14Z phoe: mostly because it has a pretty strict functional paradigm
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2020-12-11T19:06:08Z nij: phoe: would you elaborate?
2020-12-11T19:06:12Z defunkydrummer: nij: Common Lisp is a very hard language to implement. Because it has a lot of powerful features. E
2020-12-11T19:06:21Z phoe: that's what makes it troublesome for me to write Clojure, I can't bend the language to my needs very easily. I can force myself to write functional code, it's just that I can't do it in the "mostly functional" style that I'm used to - where most of the code is functional and I use HOFs but I also have imperative logic, either in OO-like core or in mostly-functional but internally imperative functions
2020-12-11T19:07:35Z nij: phoe: it forces your code to be very functional?
2020-12-11T19:07:49Z phoe: nij: clojure? yes
2020-12-11T19:08:48Z nij: What are some bread and butter in cl that's not allowed in clojure, as an example?
2020-12-11T19:08:52Z phoe: CLOS
2020-12-11T19:09:12Z phoe: SETF
2020-12-11T19:09:25Z nij: Jeez.
2020-12-11T19:09:39Z phoe: reader macros ain't bread and butter but still
2020-12-11T19:09:49Z defunkydrummer: nij: and, some useful features for interactive programming. That are absent in clojure.
2020-12-11T19:10:03Z phoe: did clojure backtraces become any good now?
2020-12-11T19:10:08Z ck_: phoe: no
2020-12-11T19:10:35Z defunkydrummer: phoe: well, clojure has reader macros, but you're very limited in your choice of characters you can bind a reader macro to... The reader macro character has to start with #, if i recall correctly. Which is a big limitation!
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2020-12-11T19:11:05Z phoe: defunkydrummer: TIL! I thought they were completely erased from the language, I think I mentioned Rich saying that sometime
2020-12-11T19:11:14Z phoe: oh right
2020-12-11T19:11:16Z phoe: a condition system!
2020-12-11T19:11:23Z defunkydrummer: lol
2020-12-11T19:11:23Z ck_: phoe: but you just implemented that in Java
2020-12-11T19:11:26Z phoe: it doesn't have a condition system, just dumb Java exceptions
2020-12-11T19:11:32Z defunkydrummer: nah, but nobody needs a condition system...
2020-12-11T19:11:32Z phoe: ck_: yes, but not in Clojure
2020-12-11T19:11:36Z phoe: I didn't say it's impossible to implement
2020-12-11T19:11:43Z phoe: I said that Clojure considered it unnecessary
2020-12-11T19:12:03Z ck_: "not allowed in Clojure" was, I thought, the question you were asking
2020-12-11T19:12:09Z defunkydrummer: nij: the CL condition system is an awesome feature of CL. So awesome, some people even write books about it. And publish them on Apres.
2020-12-11T19:12:17Z ck_: since Clojure is a Java library technically, your implementation allows it
2020-12-11T19:12:26Z phoe: ck_: no, more like, which features of CL are not present in Clojure
2020-12-11T19:12:37Z phoe: there is a condition system available as a library for Clojure but that's still kinda eh
2020-12-11T19:12:42Z ck_: phoe: s/asking/answering/ sorry
2020-12-11T19:13:07Z phoe: but yes, it's possible to get a condition system in Clojure as a Java library; clojure macros would even make the syntax bearable!
2020-12-11T19:13:16Z phoe: .....I actually need to do that sometime
2020-12-11T19:13:18Z ck_: anyway I'd like to add to the list: the Clojure printer doesn't resolve circular structure
2020-12-11T19:14:00Z nij: ok......... how about JVM? I know little about it. My impression is that JVM is inevitable to deal with in "practical jobs". Can CL deal with it nicely?
2020-12-11T19:14:22Z ck_: nij: there's ABCL
2020-12-11T19:14:35Z varjag: jvm is legacy now
2020-12-11T19:14:46Z Nilby: JVM is by no means inevitable.
2020-12-11T19:14:48Z ck_: I don't know about 'nicely' though.. and also what you mean by "practical jobs"
2020-12-11T19:15:16Z defunkydrummer: nij: tons of practical jobs outside the jvm. The JVM is just a virtual machine. A big part of the computer servers and programs right now on the internet are NOT running on the jvm.
2020-12-11T19:15:40Z defunkydrummer: nij: for example the two most popular programming languages right now are Python and Javascript, and both have zero thing to do with the JVM
2020-12-11T19:16:18Z varjag: containerization killed vms
2020-12-11T19:16:18Z defunkydrummer: nij: That being said, the JVM is a virtual machine that runs Java bytecode and in this task it is extremely efficient. So it is a very good virtual machine, with very good garbage collectors, optimizations, etc. Good stuff.
2020-12-11T19:16:35Z phoe: defunkydrummer: "some people even write books about it"
2020-12-11T19:16:36Z phoe: touche
2020-12-11T19:16:45Z ck_: phoe: you should check it out
2020-12-11T19:16:54Z phoe: OK, I will.
2020-12-11T19:16:58Z defunkydrummer: phoe: and some people even buy those books!!
2020-12-11T19:17:04Z phoe: defunkydrummer: madmen
2020-12-11T19:17:30Z defunkydrummer: phoe: oh please don't get me started on my doctoral thesis: "Insanity in the Common Lisp Ecosystem"
2020-12-11T19:17:31Z Nilby: lol
2020-12-11T19:17:49Z phoe: defunkydrummer: I am both curious and scared of this thesis
2020-12-11T19:18:03Z phoe: let's discuss it, but on #lispcafe
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2020-12-11T19:18:41Z defunkydrummer: nij: But clojure isn't a bad language when you compare with other popular languages like Python. Compared to most popular languages, it's good stuff. Very good stuff. However when compared with common lisp, there are things that are missed.
2020-12-11T19:19:27Z nij: lol
2020-12-11T19:19:34Z phoe: no, that's serious
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2020-12-11T19:22:20Z Nilby: "10 signs you may have caught a Lisp related mental illness"
2020-12-11T19:25:30Z defunkydrummer: LOL
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2020-12-11T19:27:46Z defunkydrummer: nij: I think it's very good that Clojure exists, because it has been a source of some ideas that then were implemented afterwards into Common Lisp.
2020-12-11T19:28:10Z ck_: I agree, arrows are good for example
2020-12-11T19:28:23Z nij: Arrows? As the arrows in haskell?
2020-12-11T19:28:23Z defunkydrummer: nij: also, it gives companies where using Common Lisp scares the managers, an alternative to use some of the power of lisp without shocking anybody
2020-12-11T19:28:39Z nij: defunkydrummer: this is uplifting.
2020-12-11T19:28:42Z defunkydrummer: nij: i'd leave the arrow work to the indians. They know how to use them well.
2020-12-11T19:28:43Z ck_: nij: Clojure calls them "threading macros", -> and ->> are thread-first and thread-last
2020-12-11T19:28:49Z nij wants LISP TO SPREAD!
2020-12-11T19:29:13Z defunkydrummer: nij: lisp isn't butter or margarine
2020-12-11T19:29:14Z ck_: nij: it is spreading and has for a long time. The influences are far and wide
2020-12-11T19:29:26Z ck_: defunkydrummer: I can't believe it's not butter!
2020-12-11T19:29:40Z nij: ck_: I want parenthesis to spread!
2020-12-11T19:29:45Z defunkydrummer: nik: yeah, lisp influences are very very strong into Python, javascript... the most popular languages right now
2020-12-11T19:29:46Z phoe: nij: arrows as in Clojure
2020-12-11T19:29:51Z phoe: arrow macros, also known as threading macros.
2020-12-11T19:30:12Z phoe: I have a tutorial for my variant of them at https://github.com/phoe/binding-arrows/blob/main/doc/TUTORIAL.md
2020-12-11T19:30:30Z defunkydrummer: phoe: i'd leave the threading work to the tailors. They know how to thread those tiny threads well.
2020-12-11T19:30:44Z phoe: you should be able to understand the basic mechanism of how they are supposed to work from that.
2020-12-11T19:30:47Z defunkydrummer: phoe: and by the way let's leave the channel work to the civil engineers
2020-12-11T19:30:56Z phoe: defunkydrummer: channel work? what do you mean
2020-12-11T19:31:41Z defunkydrummer: phoe: i'm doing a pun on threads, channels and other concurrent constructs
2020-12-11T19:31:47Z phoe: :D
2020-12-11T19:31:47Z defunkydrummer: :/
2020-12-11T19:31:51Z phoe: I understand now
2020-12-11T19:31:56Z nij: Besides threadings, are there other inspiring notions?
2020-12-11T19:31:56Z curiouscain: :^)
2020-12-11T19:31:57Z phoe: sorry, I'm still a bit tired
2020-12-11T19:32:06Z defunkydrummer: phoe: i see...
2020-12-11T19:32:09Z nij: reducers and transducers? (I'm still reading about them)
2020-12-11T19:32:19Z defunkydrummer: leave the transducers to the electronic engineers
2020-12-11T19:32:45Z defunkydrummer: nij: the problem is, Clojure introduces some slang for things that are better known by other names. I'd say this adds unnecessary difficulty
2020-12-11T19:33:01Z nij: oh oh ok.
2020-12-11T19:33:12Z ck_: oh yes .. in a way it is a good thing that Common Lisp has no single figure at the head of the organization
2020-12-11T19:33:14Z defunkydrummer: nij: to put a simple example, on ALL lisps except Clojure, the ATOM is exactly the same concept in all those lisps. Not in Clojure. :S
2020-12-11T19:33:20Z nij: I'm just curious. This is not particular about clojure.
2020-12-11T19:33:30Z nij: I would like to collect many powerful "utilities".
2020-12-11T19:33:36Z nij: (Like monads.)
2020-12-11T19:33:41Z nij: (in mathematics.)
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2020-12-11T19:33:45Z defunkydrummer: ooohh we have a HASKELLER here!!
2020-12-11T19:33:47Z harlchen: >>=
2020-12-11T19:33:53Z defunkydrummer presses the red button
2020-12-11T19:34:04Z nij kicks himself out!
2020-12-11T19:34:06Z phoe: monads in CL don't really work
2020-12-11T19:34:12Z nij: no no no no no
2020-12-11T19:34:17Z nij: I don't mean monad in haskell sense.
2020-12-11T19:34:23Z phoe: ooooh
2020-12-11T19:34:27Z nij: I mean the mathematical concept.. is really great.
2020-12-11T19:34:32Z nij: (well at the end they are the same thing)
2020-12-11T19:34:53Z nij: It's a notion that captures lots of thoughts in a slick way.
2020-12-11T19:35:02Z defunkydrummer: nij: and now that we're at it, let's also leave the purity for the chemists
2020-12-11T19:35:06Z nij: If you know about cohomology.. you'd appreciate more.
2020-12-11T19:35:18Z nij: ok so besides threading.. what can I learn more?
2020-12-11T19:35:20Z defunkydrummer: nij: and let's leave the "lazy evaluation" to careless teachers
2020-12-11T19:35:50Z defunkydrummer: nij: i'm just joking while I wait for my food to arrive
2020-12-11T19:35:56Z nij: loll
2020-12-11T19:36:16Z defunkydrummer: nij: a nice introductory book to Common Lisp is "Practical Common Lisp" which can be read for free online. Which is a proof that Lispers are nice people.
2020-12-11T19:36:28Z nij: haha
2020-12-11T19:36:42Z phoe: defunkydrummer: hah
2020-12-11T19:37:03Z nij: defunkydrummer: plz. Are there more slick notions that are nice to learn?
2020-12-11T19:37:18Z phoe: slick notions, you mean syntax tricks?
2020-12-11T19:37:18Z nij: Those that help you express yourself in a slicker way.
2020-12-11T19:37:29Z defunkydrummer: Common Lisp: The language for Nice People (Trademark)
2020-12-11T19:37:34Z ck_: paip is online now as well, isn't it
2020-12-11T19:37:45Z phoe: Gentle is online, too
2020-12-11T19:37:59Z defunkydrummer: ck_: i don't know... but that's a GREAT book
2020-12-11T19:37:59Z phoe: it's good especially for people who have not programmed much
2020-12-11T19:38:07Z phoe: and it starts from the very very beginning, so, hmmmmm
2020-12-11T19:38:20Z defunkydrummer: nij: Take note: Paradigms In Artificial Programming: Case studies in Common Lisp, by Peter Seibel
2020-12-11T19:38:25Z phoe: nij: if you're a mathematician, and you want to get to the bottom of all things, I wonder if you could benefit from gentle
2020-12-11T19:38:28Z defunkydrummer: minion: tell nij about PAIP
2020-12-11T19:38:28Z minion: nij: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2020-12-11T19:38:30Z phoe: minion: tell nij about gentle
2020-12-11T19:38:30Z minion: nij: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2020-12-11T19:38:42Z defunkydrummer: minion: tell nij about life, the universe and everything
2020-12-11T19:38:43Z nij: PAIP yes the huge book
2020-12-11T19:38:44Z minion: nij: you speak nonsense
2020-12-11T19:38:53Z defunkydrummer: lol
2020-12-11T19:38:54Z ck_: :o
2020-12-11T19:38:56Z phoe: minion: wait what
2020-12-11T19:38:56Z minion: watch out, you'll make krystof angry
2020-12-11T19:39:07Z phoe: oh shit I never thought I'd see the way when minion gets aggressive
2020-12-11T19:39:11Z phoe: s/way/day/
2020-12-11T19:39:19Z defunkydrummer: nij: PAIP may be huge but it's rich in content, great book. Peter seibel is the director of AI research at Google!
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2020-12-11T19:39:55Z defunkydrummer: minion: will you help me in spearheading the nascent movement to make Common Lisp a top 5 programming language by 2040? I believe this is eminently achievable given proper approaches.
2020-12-11T19:39:55Z minion: will you help me in spearheading the nascent movement to make Common Lisp a top 5 programming language by 2040? I believe this is eminently achievable given proper approaches: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/will%20you%20help%20me%20in%20spearheading%20the%20nascent%20movement%20to%20make%20Common%20Lisp%20a%20top%205%20programming%20language%20by%202040?%20I%20believe%20this%20is%20eminently%20achievable%20given%20p
2020-12-11T19:40:03Z nij: lol
2020-12-11T19:40:20Z phoe: okay defunkydrummer I think it might be time to calm down a bit
2020-12-11T19:40:29Z defunkydrummer: sorry dad
2020-12-11T19:40:34Z phoe: no problem son
2020-12-11T19:40:48Z nij: loll
2020-12-11T19:41:00Z phoe: let's just not abuse minion too much. it might be sentient.
2020-12-11T19:41:08Z defunkydrummer: i got carried away by the emotion of trolling minion
2020-12-11T19:41:16Z defunkydrummer: well back at clojure
2020-12-11T19:41:27Z phoe: and the last thing you want is a sentient bot who knows who you are and what is your IP address.
2020-12-11T19:41:31Z ck_: are you (eval-when '(:compile-toplevel))'ing yet, son?
2020-12-11T19:41:44Z defunkydrummer: i congratulate every developer that chooses clojure over many other languages. It's a step forward. A stepping stone for the Real Deal, the Uncut Lisp
2020-12-11T19:42:16Z defunkydrummer: ck_: wait, i'm your son too as well?
2020-12-11T19:42:19Z phoe: defunkydrummer: well, Java was originally a stepping stone for Lisp... it kinda worked
2020-12-11T19:42:27Z defunkydrummer is atreyu -- son of the people
2020-12-11T19:42:32Z phoe gently nudges the familial relationships to #lispcafe
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2020-12-11T19:48:44Z defunkydrummer: bij: I hope you can read PAIP or PCL and get a good idea of how to use the language. I'd say PCL is an easier read
2020-12-11T19:48:55Z defunkydrummer: nij; sorry, NIJ not BIJ
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2020-12-11T19:49:30Z defunkydrummer: nij: there are many books of course.
2020-12-11T19:51:17Z lotuseater: but not just so many all of them are very good
2020-12-11T19:51:31Z lotuseater: sry, without NOT
2020-12-11T19:52:11Z lotuseater: look at how much dozens of bad books for other stuff is out there
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2020-12-11T20:11:18Z scymtym: mfiano: i don't whether this was said already, but after (setf (sb-ext:readtable-normalization *readtable*) nil) you get (char (symbol-name 'foo²) 3) => #\SUPERSCRIPT_TWO
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2020-12-11T20:11:54Z scymtym: *don't know
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2020-12-11T20:46:45Z roelj: Any recommendations for a HTML serializer for Common Lisp?
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2020-12-11T20:50:07Z jcd: howdy yall, can someone tell me what the "in" function/operator does?
2020-12-11T20:50:57Z Bike: there is no standard operator by that name. what context are you seeing it in?
2020-12-11T20:51:12Z Bike: do you mean the loop keyword?
2020-12-11T20:52:48Z jcd: yes!
2020-12-11T20:53:08Z jcd: I just wanna know what exactly it does
2020-12-11T20:53:21Z Bike: clhs 6.1.2.1.2
2020-12-11T20:53:21Z specbot: The for-as-in-list subclause: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_abab.htm
2020-12-11T20:53:27Z Bike: basically it lets you iterate over a list.
2020-12-11T20:53:45Z Bike: (loop for x in y do (print x)) prints the elements of the list y in order.
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2020-12-11T20:54:43Z jcd: gotcha! thank you!
2020-12-11T20:56:00Z Bike: glad to be of assistance
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2020-12-11T21:01:57Z lotuseater: jcd: and across is the same for vectors
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2020-12-11T21:12:54Z lotuseater: könnte jetzt auch schonmal das weltkompendium lesen
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2020-12-11T21:14:45Z lotuseater: oh sry wrong window o_O
2020-12-11T21:16:50Z ane: don't worry, a little bit of german every day keeps the doctor away
2020-12-11T21:17:46Z lotuseater: yes German can be weird :D I'm waiting currently for a big download to finish
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2020-12-11T21:18:59Z phoe: pëöplë cän wrïtë gërmän ïn änÿ längüägë thöügh
2020-12-11T21:21:31Z lotuseater: hehe i like that. i remember that's one of the first exercises in "The TeXbook" by Don Knuth, finding an English word with äöü
2020-12-11T21:22:11Z ane: hungarians eating pörkölt
2020-12-11T21:23:04Z lotuseater: yes ane but every time i see Paul Erdös written via Tex with normal ö i'm mad
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2020-12-11T21:23:51Z defunkydrummer: lotuseater: you're hungarian then?
2020-12-11T21:24:23Z lotuseater: no, I'm German, but mathematicians names must be written correct :)
2020-12-11T21:24:29Z ane: heh, did you know it should be written Erdős, not Erdös
2020-12-11T21:25:29Z defunkydrummer: according to the lisp demographics, german might as well be the #2 official language of the Lisp community
2020-12-11T21:25:39Z lotuseater: yes I meant that but don't have it in my layout. in TeX you can do \def\erdos{Erd\H os}
2020-12-11T21:25:45Z ane: ö is a letter in its own right, by adding the acute accent to a hungarian vowel like á makes it a loong vowel. so, ö has its long variant, ő
2020-12-11T21:26:03Z lotuseater: defunkydrummer: oh cool, but not in companies using it
2020-12-11T21:26:58Z lotuseater: yes it's something like plural for status, i think in latin it's u declination, so becomes u with bar on top
2020-12-11T21:27:37Z ane: but I agree with you, Erdös is good, Erdos is not
2020-12-11T21:28:44Z lotuseater: for here it's totally ok
2020-12-11T21:29:03Z lotuseater: but sorry i didn't want to go offtopic, have no lisp question atm
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2020-12-11T23:19:36Z lotuseater: I wonder how complex it would be writing a game engine like that for Cyberpunk 2077 in CL :)
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2020-12-11T23:24:29Z White_Flame: lotuseater: I don't know how much metaprogramming goes into one of those, as it appears it's a custom engine from cdpr, but lisp could be relatively simpler to write
2020-12-11T23:24:49Z White_Flame: but of course, much of the work would be getting a smooth frame rate and foiling garbage collection being triggered
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2020-12-11T23:31:25Z lotuseater: White_Flame: yes it's custom
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2020-12-11T23:34:46Z lotuseater: John Carmack once has rewritten the wolfenstein3d engine in haskell, but I don't know how to do that stuff in lisp :( maybe combined with CEPL?
2020-12-11T23:35:41Z no-defun-allowed: It would have used some 2d library to be a "faithful" port, as it did its own rasterization/raycasting, no?
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2020-12-11T23:37:05Z lotuseater: ehm you ask questions :D
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2020-12-11T23:43:52Z White_Flame: wolf3d was just a simple 8-bit framebuffer
2020-12-11T23:44:01Z White_Flame: software renderer
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2020-12-11T23:49:54Z lotuseater: the prototype for DOOM ^^ "Mein Leben!"
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2020-12-11T23:50:10Z aeth: They didn't have hardware rendering on PC until Quake 1, and even then they couldn't assume that everyone would have it so they had to ship parallel software renderers for some time, e.g. Half-Life 1 in late 1998 iirc.
2020-12-11T23:50:29Z aeth: (HL1 isn't an Id game, it's a Valve game, but it's based on Id's Quake engine)
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2020-12-11T23:51:17Z lotuseater: ah cool to know
2020-12-11T23:53:32Z saturn2: if you were going to write game engine that elaborate in lisp it would probably be worth your time to extend your lisp implementation with arena-based memory management
2020-12-11T23:54:01Z Xach: quake 3 arena memory management?
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2020-12-11T23:54:48Z lotuseater: saturn2: can you explain a little further plz?
2020-12-11T23:55:02Z saturn2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Region-based_memory_management
2020-12-11T23:55:24Z saturn2: similar to dynamic-extent except not as limited
2020-12-11T23:55:41Z lotuseater: ah didn't know about that. but at writing games so much comes together, from higher maths to AI
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2020-12-11T23:56:18Z no-defun-allowed: Do games do much allocation at runtime?
2020-12-11T23:57:18Z lotuseater: now with SSD on PS5 (which I don't have) reloading is quite instant
2020-12-12T00:00:51Z White_Flame: also, I notice you're not in #lispgames, where certainly there's a lot of game engine goings on
2020-12-12T00:01:35Z White_Flame: saturn2: yes, one allocation region per frame would make much sense
2020-12-12T00:02:40Z White_Flame: sweep away everything at once
2020-12-12T00:02:49Z lotuseater: oh thx for that tip!
2020-12-12T00:02:54Z saturn2: right
2020-12-12T00:03:33Z White_Flame: I believe javascript does a shallow GC pass after leaving every "frame" as well
2020-12-12T00:03:58Z White_Flame: but that does still build up into some fuller GC stutters
2020-12-12T00:04:33Z White_Flame: obviously a per-frame region would be faster, but then you're dealing with taking greater care with references
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2020-12-12T01:07:29Z mfiano: no-defun-allowed: They can, but not typically. Good game development is about balancing the work between the CPU and the GPU. Usually you start with pre-allocating large buffers up front and sending them to the gpu, then referencing them with handles on both ends. It can be beneficial to do this at runtime though for some things (called batching).
2020-12-12T01:09:43Z mfiano: I can assure you, the GC, at least on SBCL, is not the issue you need to worry about with gamedev in Lisp
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2020-12-12T01:10:34Z no-defun-allowed: mfiano: Okay. I know that for audio processing, you can usually preallocate, but I've had mixed signals with video games.
2020-12-12T01:11:05Z mfiano: The issue is throwing away a lot of the niceties of the language (read: CLOS), as it's more than an order of magnitude slower.
2020-12-12T01:11:17Z mfiano: (among other dynamic language problems)
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2020-12-12T01:18:53Z mfiano: To give you an idea of what's possible, I can render tens of thousands of game objects per frame, where a frame is 1/60 seconds, on a single thread, which includes a ton of math and thousands of hash table lookups, and the only significant thing slowing that down is CLOS. Structs help a lot though :)
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2020-12-12T02:26:14Z ebrasca: Can you have distributed lisp image?
2020-12-12T02:30:49Z Xach: wohnmhmm
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2020-12-12T02:32:48Z Xach: (   (yoinks)yoinks.
2020-12-12T02:33:21Z ebrasca: I have see this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnd9LPWv1U8 and I am thinking how it aplies to cl. ( Video about Barrelfish OS )
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2020-12-12T02:36:01Z Xach: sorry for the line noise. network problems.
2020-12-12T02:37:19Z Xach: I just had a function that does something like (list (ldb (byte 1 index) i) (ldb (byte 1 index) j) (ldb (byte 1 index) k)) so I thought, "i am a clever fellow, i hate typing (byte 1 index) so much, i will use LET and bind it once, then reuse it."
2020-12-12T02:37:55Z Xach: (let ((spec (byte 1 index))) (list (ldb spec i) (ldb spec j) (ldb spec k))) or so
2020-12-12T02:38:05Z Xach: the latter is way way slower on sbcl!
2020-12-12T02:38:31Z Xach: i am not *too* surprised, but i am a little surprised.
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2020-12-12T02:48:33Z lotuseater: oh I'll try that now.
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2020-12-12T02:53:08Z lotuseater: but why is it slower that way?
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2020-12-12T02:54:20Z Xach: lotuseater: i believe it inhibits compiler recognition/inlining of the BYTE call somehow.
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2020-12-12T02:54:58Z lotuseater: hmmm
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2020-12-12T02:55:06Z Xach: guessing: the pattern (ldb (byte ...) ...) is recognized and transformed in a nice way, (ldb var ...) not. same with dpb.
2020-12-12T02:55:13Z Xach: does anything other than ldb and dpb use byte?
2020-12-12T02:55:57Z lotuseater: i don't know, not used them much yet. i even think i don't understand fully what is happening :)
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2020-12-12T02:56:39Z lotuseater: but clhs says LDB is also historically (like CAR and CDR)
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2020-12-12T02:57:36Z Bike: sbcl recognizes (ldb (byte ...) ...) pretty literally i believe
2020-12-12T02:57:42Z Bike: rather than through inference stuff
2020-12-12T02:58:10Z Bike: (if (and (consp spec) (eq (car spec) 'byte)) ...) yeah i see
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2020-12-12T03:10:38Z Xach: not too fancy
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2020-12-12T03:15:38Z ebrasca: Xach: Can't replicate in my sbcl.
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2020-12-12T03:17:58Z ebrasca: Here how I tested http://ix.io/2HDJ
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2020-12-12T03:19:21Z Bike: you're doing few enough ldb operations that time may instead be dominated by consing
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2020-12-12T03:20:04Z Bike: if you look the list calls a few thousand times you can see a difference
2020-12-12T03:20:19Z Bike: for me the ones with literal byte take ~27k cycles, whereas the ones with the let binding take ~100k
2020-12-12T03:20:33Z Bike: that's with 1000 iterations per
2020-12-12T03:20:56Z Bike: like, (loop repeat 1000 do (let ((spec
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2020-12-12T03:25:40Z ebrasca: I see now.
2020-12-12T03:26:31Z ebrasca: Maybe it creates some subroutine?
2020-12-12T03:27:22Z Bike: basically on sbcl you have (defun ldb (bytespec integer) (%ldb (byte-size byte) (byte-position byte) integer))
2020-12-12T03:27:34Z Bike: and there's something that rewrites (ldb (byte ...) integer) calls directly into %ldb calls
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2020-12-12T03:39:37Z ebrasca: Is it inline vs not inlined code?
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2020-12-12T04:11:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-12T04:12:09Z aaaaaa: beach: good
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2020-12-12T04:23:32Z ebrasca: Morning beach!
2020-12-12T04:24:00Z ebrasca: beach: How are you doing today?
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2020-12-12T04:25:07Z beach: ebrasca: I am doing quite well thank you very much.  The past few days, I have made great progress with the SICL bootstrapping procedure, so I am very pleased with that.
2020-12-12T04:25:11Z beach: What about yourself?
2020-12-12T04:26:38Z ebrasca: beach: I am fine , just somewhat lost wichout an concrete goal or how to make Mezzano better.
2020-12-12T04:29:05Z beach: Hmm.  I see.
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2020-12-12T04:56:39Z lotuseater: beach: so I now wrote a little test dispatch readmacro #? with the numarg summing to first n numbers e.g. #100? => 5050 :)
2020-12-12T04:57:44Z beach: I see.  So you are fine with the signature of the dispatch function now?
2020-12-12T04:58:28Z lotuseater: yes I think so
2020-12-12T04:58:36Z beach: Excellent!
2020-12-12T04:58:49Z ldbeth: good afternnon
2020-12-12T04:58:55Z beach: Hello ldbeth.
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2020-12-12T04:59:10Z lotuseater: step by step climbing the mountain ^^
2020-12-12T04:59:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: ebrasca: any chance Mezzano works on arm64?
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2020-12-12T05:00:23Z lotuseater: from what i saw about Mezzano it's great. but something went wrong multiple times starting in qemu after successfully compiled
2020-12-12T05:01:05Z ebrasca: fiddlerwoaroof: Last think I read about arm64 is someone is working on making it work againg. I think it have bitroted.
2020-12-12T05:01:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: lotuseater: yeah, I've had an issue where the official boot images just don't work
2020-12-12T05:02:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I haven't tried it recently, but I filed this issue: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/issues/99
2020-12-12T05:02:38Z lotuseater: and if I click in the window my window manager (xmonad) freezes :D
2020-12-12T05:02:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: if i remember correctly, there's a similar issue in the bootloader project
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2020-12-12T05:06:33Z lotuseater: fiddlerwoaroof: nice fractal picture on your github
2020-12-12T05:07:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks
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2020-12-12T05:08:01Z lotuseater: ah now I see your recently mentioned project cl-git. and you have lenses? :o they are a powerful tool in Haskell, but not easy in category theory
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2020-12-12T05:13:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: lotuseater: the nice thing about lenses is that you don't have to think too hard about the theory to use them effectively
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2020-12-12T05:13:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: that data-lens project is sort of badly named, though
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2020-12-12T05:13:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: It does have an implementation of lenses (Van Laarhoven encoding, if that means anything)
2020-12-12T05:14:30Z lotuseater: ah okay. I'm stuck between those :D
2020-12-12T05:14:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: However, it's mostly about a style of programming I've found convenient: higher-order functions that produce functions that can be composed together to build up operations piecemeal
2020-12-12T05:15:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, instead of some complicated loop construct, I do: (alexandria:compose (data-lens:over '1+) (data-lens:over 'parse-integer))
2020-12-12T05:16:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: (this one isn't so bad in loop, I guess)
2020-12-12T05:16:17Z lotuseater: yes i miss that opportunity sometimes
2020-12-12T05:18:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you have experience with Clojure, I plan to "eventually" rebuild it around transducers (maintaining backwards compatibility, because I'm opposed to the idea of breaking changes)
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2020-12-12T05:21:29Z lotuseater: hm not much, more with Haskell, my 2nd programming religion :)
2020-12-12T05:23:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: lotuseater: my path is sort of unusual. I got really into Haskell around '08, but learning CL cured me of most of my desires for statically checked types
2020-12-12T05:23:02Z lotuseater: I'll look it up
2020-12-12T05:23:33Z lotuseater: oh yes, mine sort of same ^^
2020-12-12T05:23:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Transducers are basically a cool trick with continuations to enable explicit stream fusion
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2020-12-12T05:27:24Z lotuseater: ah continuations :) the "Mother of all Monads" ^^
2020-12-12T05:28:05Z lotuseater: okay stream fusion I never did yet
2020-12-12T05:29:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: The basic problem is that MAPCAR and REMOVE-IF-NOT and friends all cons up intermediate collections.  You can replace the CONS call with a callback that every intermediate operation calls with the next element to be produced.
2020-12-12T05:29:48Z lotuseater: I wrote some query
2020-12-12T05:29:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Then, you pass in a base operation that actually builds up a collection to the composed stack of operations
2020-12-12T05:30:20Z lotuseater: phew sounds nontrivial
2020-12-12T05:32:52Z lotuseater: so they mess up the heap very quickly with non needed constructs?
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2020-12-12T05:35:29Z ldbeth: that's the whole point of beening lazy
2020-12-12T05:36:13Z ldbeth: and why iterators get handy
2020-12-12T05:36:15Z lotuseater: yees
2020-12-12T05:37:58Z lotuseater: combined with memoization it's powerful
2020-12-12T05:38:13Z ldbeth: i don't know why but I trend to get over think a lot about efficiency when write ML/Haskell
2020-12-12T05:39:26Z lotuseater: some people say liking this and lisp is kind of paradox
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2020-12-12T05:53:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: lotuseater: transducers are eager and also more efficient memory-wise
2020-12-12T05:53:23Z lotuseater: ah okay
2020-12-12T05:54:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Laziness is great, until you try to profile your code
2020-12-12T05:55:22Z lotuseater: uff yeah, very nondeterministic
2020-12-12T05:56:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: This isn't the greatest explanatory sample, but here's my lisp implementation: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/lisp-sandbox/blob/master/transduce.lisp
2020-12-12T05:57:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: The basic idea is that (reduce 'cons list) will build up a list
2020-12-12T05:57:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: (assuming reduce puts the accumulator into the second argument)
2020-12-12T05:57:53Z lotuseater: nice
2020-12-12T05:58:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, you can imagine mapping '1+ like this: (reduce (lambda (a acc) (cons (1+ a) acc)) list)
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2020-12-12T05:58:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, adding parse-integer in: (reduce (lambda (a acc)    [21:58]
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2020-12-12T05:59:35Z fiddlerwoaroof:  194     (cons (1+ (parse-integer a)) acc)) list)
2020-12-12T06:00:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, you can see the mapped functions keep getting built up: (1+ (parse-integer a))
2020-12-12T06:00:53Z lotuseater: i try to get this into my head
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2020-12-12T06:02:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I always think it'll be simple to explain, and it never is :)
2020-12-12T06:02:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Probably means I don't understand it well enough :)
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2020-12-12T06:05:13Z lotuseater: yes I like this principle , it's said coming from Feynman
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2020-12-12T06:07:57Z lotuseater: don't worry I'm not so smart so that is the reason
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2020-12-12T07:14:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: lotuseater: if you're interested in a bit more of a step-by-step derivation of the concept, maybe this will help: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/f95e2ee5afe5b44aa7047a9c12cc3e4a07025aaa.lisp.html
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2020-12-12T07:40:10Z ck_: nice work. I always try not to snoc so much as well
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2020-12-12T07:52:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's an example using data-lens funcitonality to build up a hash-table from the input numbers to the results of a transformtion: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/6441f6ddec9ca1d7b1d5d4c5ab86dce59c78926d.lisp.html
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2020-12-12T07:53:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think one of the most interesting things here is that the data transformation (the composed calls to MAPPING) are completely decoupled from the code that's responsible for iterating down the input sequence and from the code that's responsible for building up the result value
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2020-12-12T08:02:08Z momozor: Hi. I'm trying to remove an element from a specific index of an adjustable array, but I'm not really sure how I could do this without removing the array fill pointer (using setf)
2020-12-12T08:03:01Z beach: momozor: What do you want to happen with the elements that follow the one you remove?
2020-12-12T08:03:36Z beach: And why do you think you need to "remove the fill pointer" whatever that may mean?
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2020-12-12T08:09:36Z beach: momozor: Hello?
2020-12-12T08:10:20Z phoe: morniiiing
2020-12-12T08:10:31Z beach: Hey phoe.
2020-12-12T08:11:02Z phoe: momozor: let's assume your array looks like #(1 2 3 4 5 6 7) and you want to remove 4 from it. do you want #(1 2 3 5 6 7) afterwards?
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2020-12-12T08:11:24Z phoe: because this requires you to copy all elements followins 4 onto their new positions and is therefore O(n) in time
2020-12-12T08:11:53Z phoe: or can it look like #(1 2 3 7 5 6)? because that is O(1) so much cheaper, but does not maintain order
2020-12-12T08:13:01Z phoe: you can see a variant of that last technique in https://github.com/phoe/phoe-toolbox/blob/master/bag.lisp where I remove elements from an adjustable array at random so I don't care about order.
2020-12-12T08:13:25Z phoe: otherwise, you'll need to loop and copy. vectors are painful to remove non-last elements from.
2020-12-12T08:14:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess you could maintain a list of the indices to remove, and then remove them all in one pass?
2020-12-12T08:15:09Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: oh, right - if you want to remove multiple elements
2020-12-12T08:15:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: Getting the code right might be a bit tricky
2020-12-12T08:15:33Z beach: Or, you can use a Flexichain.
2020-12-12T08:16:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: basically a sequence of vectors? that was my other idea
2020-12-12T08:17:03Z beach: No, a Flexichain is a circular gap-buffer implemented as a vector.
2020-12-12T08:21:19Z momozor: beach: I was trying to do this to be exact - https://pastebin.com/wvYDYU2L
2020-12-12T08:22:26Z momozor: phoe: yes
2020-12-12T08:22:50Z momozor: sorry for the delayed replies, was crafting the paste
2020-12-12T08:23:09Z beach: momozor: Your problem is that you are using REMOVE-IF.
2020-12-12T08:23:11Z phoe: you likely don't want a vector as your data structure then.
2020-12-12T08:23:28Z beach: momozor: It creates a new vector and very likely copies all the elements from the old one to the new one.
2020-12-12T08:24:14Z momozor: ouh
2020-12-12T08:24:21Z beach: momozor: So then, you might as well copy the elements following the one you want to remove, if order matters to you.
2020-12-12T08:24:54Z beach: momozor: If order doesn't matter to you, just move the last element to the place of the element you want to remove, and decrement the fill pointer.
2020-12-12T08:25:11Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps a hash table keyed by ID would be more appropriate?
2020-12-12T08:25:37Z beach: That works provided the order doesn't matter.
2020-12-12T08:26:02Z phoe: what no-defun-allowed said
2020-12-12T08:26:22Z beach: momozor: Is the order between the elements important?
2020-12-12T08:27:02Z beach: momozor: If not, you have a "dictionary" data type, and implementing a dictionary using a sequence is usually a bad idea.
2020-12-12T08:28:35Z beach: momozor: Another thing is that you seem to be using lists to define each entry.  It would probably be more appropriate to use a standard class with slots for ID, TITLE, etc.
2020-12-12T08:28:51Z beach: s/define/represent/
2020-12-12T08:29:22Z momozor: ah thanks..I'll try you guys suggestions. I thought vector for my purpose is quite suitable.
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2020-12-12T08:30:33Z no-defun-allowed: The time complexity of the operations for a dictionary type are probably not very good when using a vector--oh never mind.
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2020-12-12T12:22:23Z PatchyBeardDwarf: Can elisp questions asked here?
2020-12-12T12:22:25Z PatchyBeardDwarf: Hello!
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2020-12-12T12:25:28Z beach: PatchyBeardDwarf: Nja,...
2020-12-12T12:25:34Z beach: this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2020-12-12T12:25:43Z beach: Try #emacs.
2020-12-12T12:31:44Z Krystof: phoe: we dialed back minion's sarcasm from its original version
2020-12-12T12:32:03Z beach: That's too bad. :)
2020-12-12T12:33:44Z phoe: Krystof: there's still some significant traces of it left in all the proper places
2020-12-12T12:34:05Z phoe: I still love SBCL's "An attempt to access an array of element-type NIL was made.  Congratulations!"
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2020-12-12T12:34:21Z phoe: maybe related, maybe unrelated; I suspect some personal ties between those messages
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2020-12-12T13:07:39Z easye: Recommendations for AWS SDK scripting with our favorite CONS? <https://github.com/pokepay/aws-sdk-lisp> seems the best I can find.
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2020-12-12T14:05:26Z Xach: easye: i have used https://github.com/xach/zaws in the past but it may be out of date with respect to auth these days
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2020-12-12T14:05:52Z Xach: It's also more of a building block for a tool than a tool
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2020-12-12T14:14:35Z mrios222: hi, I have a question about hunchentoot. I set the content-type* variable to application/json, but the file that hunchentoot serves up is a html file -- an empty html file.
2020-12-12T14:15:12Z mrios222: should I try to restart the server to see if it gets it right the second time? How would I do that?
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2020-12-12T14:15:48Z Xach: mrios222: it is hard to say for sure without seeing the code
2020-12-12T14:16:13Z the-smug-one: mrios222: It sounds like you (setf *content-type*) at the top-level
2020-12-12T14:16:32Z mrios222: It's the code that is on pages 638 and 639 of Common Lisp Recipess
2020-12-12T14:16:39Z Xach: mrios222: i don't have that book :(
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2020-12-12T14:16:47Z Xach: the-smug-one: normally that would error due to unbound reply
2020-12-12T14:17:23Z mrios222:   (progn    (hunchentoot:start     (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor                    :document-root "~/Documents/programming/common-lisp/ajax/"                    :port 4242))    (hunchentoot:define-easy-handler (get-symbols :uri "/get-symbols")        (term)      (setf (hunchentoot:content-type*) "application/json")
2020-12-12T14:17:23Z mrios222: (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*)        (yason:encode         (sort          (mapcar #'string-downcase (apropos-list term :cl))          'string<))))))
2020-12-12T14:17:25Z the-smug-one: Xach: Snap, you're right
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2020-12-12T14:17:36Z mrios222: Sorry, I'm not sure if there is a better way to share code
2020-12-12T14:17:39Z the-smug-one: Ouch, please use a pastebin next time mrios222 mr
2020-12-12T14:17:55Z mrios222: Sorry, didn't know about pastebin.
2020-12-12T14:18:16Z the-smug-one: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/ <- this one for example (don't use pastebin.com)
2020-12-12T14:19:01Z mrios222: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/js6HBZGCsF/
2020-12-12T14:19:03Z mrios222: Thank you
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2020-12-12T14:20:02Z mrios222: when I tried to run the yason command in isolation, I got an error. It said that *json-output* was unbound.
2020-12-12T14:20:18Z Xach: mrios222: i cannot reproduce
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2020-12-12T14:20:37Z mrios222: Initially this set of commands led to an internal server error at localhost:4242/get-symbols
2020-12-12T14:20:39Z Xach: mrios222: when i evaluate that code, and use curl localhost:4242/get-symbols?term=bool, i get a proper response
2020-12-12T14:20:55Z Xach: mrios222: how did you get hunchentoot and yason?
2020-12-12T14:21:03Z mrios222: quicklisp
2020-12-12T14:21:16Z Xach: Same here. Hmm.
2020-12-12T14:21:51Z Xach: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/nmp7FN5QV6/ is what i get from curl
2020-12-12T14:21:53Z mrios222: I just tried command line curl. The debug messages in my repl say that the server received the request.
2020-12-12T14:22:02Z mrios222: However, the curl didn't give me any output.
2020-12-12T14:22:15Z Xach: mrios222: can you show the output of curl -v?
2020-12-12T14:23:14Z mrios222: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/h8KtYSptFk/
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2020-12-12T14:23:48Z lottaquestions: phoe: In yoour book on page 141, in the macroexpansion of the def-condition, you return the name of the defclass'ed foo-condition. Why is this?
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2020-12-12T14:24:47Z lottaquestions: phoe: The only explanation you give for this on the same page is "In addition, we return the name of the condition from the final form, as dictated by the Common Lisp standard."
2020-12-12T14:25:06Z Xach: mrios222: so it does set the content-type properly
2020-12-12T14:25:21Z lottaquestions: phoe: Where can I find this in the standard?
2020-12-12T14:25:46Z Xach: mrios222: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "yason")?
2020-12-12T14:25:47Z lottaquestions: minion: When phoe comes online, please ask him to look at my questions.
2020-12-12T14:25:49Z minion: yesterday
2020-12-12T14:25:51Z ldbeth: unfortunately the naive implementation of finite state automata does not work at 500,000 words scale
2020-12-12T14:26:18Z Xach: lottaquestions: I have not read the book, but if the intent is to mimic define-condition, the spec dictates that the return value of that macro is the name.
2020-12-12T14:26:19Z lottaquestions: minion: Ask phoe to checkout my questions when he next comes online
2020-12-12T14:26:19Z minion: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
2020-12-12T14:26:24Z mrios222: xach ultralisp
2020-12-12T14:26:44Z Xach: mrios222: normally it would give a pathname
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2020-12-12T14:26:58Z mrios222: #P"~/quicklisp/dists/ultralisp/software/hanshuebner-yason-20201112190411/"
2020-12-12T14:27:14Z Xach: mrios222: i think it is possible that you have an incompatible version of yason
2020-12-12T14:27:17Z mrios222: I edited out my home path and replaced it with ~
2020-12-12T14:27:20Z Xach: sure
2020-12-12T14:27:42Z Xach: mrios222: what happens if you use the quicklisp-dist yason, version 0.7.8?
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2020-12-12T14:28:08Z mrios222: xach how can I make sure that I use that version instead of the one I have right now?
2020-12-12T14:28:36Z mrios222: xach sorry, I am still figuring out many basic things
2020-12-12T14:28:40Z Xach: mrios222: one way is to do ql-dist::(disable (dist "ultralisp")) and restart
2020-12-12T14:28:42Z lottaquestions: Xach: Gotta head out for some hiking. But will revisit this later. I have seen similar code not targetting conditions by stylewarning in his cl-algebraic-data-type project
2020-12-12T14:29:03Z Xach: lottaquestions: DEFUN, DEFCLASS, and many other DEF-things return the name of the thing that was defined.
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2020-12-12T14:29:41Z Xach: mrios222: sure, no problem, i like to help out if i can.
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2020-12-12T14:30:57Z mrios222: xach ql-dist::(disable (dist "ultralisp") gives me the error that there are too many :s
2020-12-12T14:31:57Z Xach: mrios222: oh, sorry, that is an sbcl feature. you can also do (ql-dist:disable (ql-dist:dist "ultralisp"))
2020-12-12T14:32:02Z Xach: what lisp are you using?
2020-12-12T14:32:35Z mrios222: xach sbcl
2020-12-12T14:32:41Z ldbeth: :D
2020-12-12T14:32:48Z Xach: i think then you may have typed something diferent than i did
2020-12-12T14:33:13Z mrios222: xach I just tried the most recent command you suggested and that one went through.
2020-12-12T14:33:29Z Xach: mrios222: ok, when you restart lisp, re-try your hunchentoot code, and see what happens.
2020-12-12T14:33:50Z Xach: jackdaniel: who broke clim??
2020-12-12T14:34:34Z mrios222: xach If I'm using the repl in SLIME, how do I restart?
2020-12-12T14:34:56Z mrios222: xach slime-quit-lisp
2020-12-12T14:35:52Z Xach: mrios222: i use ,restart
2020-12-12T14:37:24Z mrios222: xach wow, it works! Thanks! You just saved me from a lot of frustration and confusion! I really appreciate it.
2020-12-12T14:37:46Z mrios222: xach It's great to see the example working :)
2020-12-12T14:37:53Z Xach: mrios222: no problem, glad to help. sorry to see that ultralisp has some kind of incompatible library.
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2020-12-12T14:38:39Z mrios222: xach Well, I've definitely learned something important about libraries and debugging potential issues with them. From now on I'll stick with the vanilla quicklisp just to be safe ;)
2020-12-12T14:39:11Z Xach: mrios222: and remember... https://xach.com/tmp/slad.gif
2020-12-12T14:39:37Z phoe: Xach: is that one of your new GIFs?
2020-12-12T14:39:42Z mrios222: xach Amen! Thank you for all of your work.
2020-12-12T14:39:43Z Xach: it is
2020-12-12T14:40:06Z Xach: from https://github.com/xach/octree/blob/70c5ba6a5ddbf6d05540dad561e9ceffe6255da7/text-art.lisp#L50
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2020-12-12T14:44:05Z phoe: nice
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2020-12-12T14:52:02Z lottaquestions: Xach: I got slightly delayed. So still around. Here is an excerpt of the macroexpansion I am asking about: https://pastebin.com/qNfB3QYK
2020-12-12T14:52:38Z lottaquestions: phoe: phoe! Check out my question
2020-12-12T14:52:59Z lottaquestions: From Chapter 3 of your book
2020-12-12T14:53:43Z lottaquestions: which I am loving by the way
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2020-12-12T15:10:55Z phoe: lottaquestions: !
2020-12-12T15:10:58Z phoe: which question?
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2020-12-12T15:11:07Z phoe: oooh, yes.
2020-12-12T15:11:26Z phoe: lottaquestions: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_defi_5.htm
2020-12-12T15:11:30Z phoe: ;; => name
2020-12-12T15:11:34Z phoe: on the very top.
2020-12-12T15:11:45Z phoe: we need to return the name. so we do.
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2020-12-12T16:00:53Z easye: Xach: I suppose <https://github.com/xach/zaws> was in your anti-ASDF phase...
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2020-12-12T16:05:09Z phoe: easye: why?
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2020-12-12T16:06:12Z phoe: I see https://github.com/xach/zaws/blob/master/zaws.asd
2020-12-12T16:06:18Z phoe: nothing out of the ordinary there...
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2020-12-12T16:08:35Z easye: phoe:  Xach: my apologies.  For some reason I missed that.
2020-12-12T16:08:57Z easye should have done a (directory (asdf:system-relative-pathname :zaws "**/*.asd"))
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2020-12-12T16:09:55Z marcoxa: Hi guys...  I just posted a new thing on my blog.
2020-12-12T16:10:21Z beach: What are those things about?
2020-12-12T16:10:23Z marcoxa: https://within-parens.blogspot.com/2020/12/with-what-are-we-contextualizing.html
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2020-12-12T16:13:48Z phoe: marcoxa: I've seen it! I really enjoy that
2020-12-12T16:13:56Z Oladon: phoe: So I asked a friend the other day, "happen to have any _good_ examples of the condition system in use?" He said "Yes" and a few days later I got your book in the mail :D
2020-12-12T16:14:06Z phoe: Oladon: :D
2020-12-12T16:14:17Z phoe: there are even more examples in the online appendix, please remember to check it out
2020-12-12T16:14:33Z Oladon: Sweet, will do. I'm enjoying it so far!
2020-12-12T16:15:08Z phoe: marcoxa: I've allowed to crosspost it to /r/Common_Lisp
2020-12-12T16:15:20Z easye: _CLCS_ is the stocking stuffer for the CONS fans in the 2020 holidays...
2020-12-12T16:15:28Z Oladon: Hehe
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2020-12-12T16:25:50Z phoe: oh no, a typo in the title
2020-12-12T16:25:52Z phoe fixes
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2020-12-12T16:30:39Z easye: Hmm.  What's the difference between CHAR and SCHAR? CLHS just sez CHAR ignores the fill-pointer <http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_char_.htm>
2020-12-12T16:31:14Z easye: Ah SCHAR only works on SIMPLE-CHAR.  Duh.
2020-12-12T16:31:34Z easye: err SIMPLE-STRINGs
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2020-12-12T16:41:00Z kenran: I recently found the lispPackages attribute in nixpkgs, now I'm wondering whether there are working setups for CL (using SBCL) that leverage nix integration for packages yet. I wasn't able to find one googling around, but since I'm new to common lisp I might not have looked in the right places. Do you have any hints for me?
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2020-12-12T17:00:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: easye: I have a fork of that https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/aws-sdk-lisp that has some patches
2020-12-12T17:01:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: I used it extensively at my last job and fixed a couple bugs I found
2020-12-12T17:02:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: One issue with AWS APIs is that even official clients like boto don't always work as the documentation specifies
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2020-12-12T17:49:06Z thmprover: For Emacs, is sly really that much better than slime?
2020-12-12T17:49:21Z loke[m]: thmprover: no. It's worse.
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2020-12-12T17:49:57Z loke[m]: Sly intentionally removed support for presentations, mainly because the author never used them. It makes it much less powerful.
2020-12-12T17:50:06Z thmprover: Ah, I see.
2020-12-12T17:50:50Z thmprover: It looks like, if I were completely new to programming and Lisp, I may want to use sly instead of slime...but that's the only case that came to mind. I wasn't sure if there was any "extra batteries" not mentioned or discussed.
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2020-12-12T17:51:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Slime has output streams that let you stream text to an emacs buffer
2020-12-12T17:51:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: To my knowledge, this hasn't been ported to Sly
2020-12-12T17:52:06Z loke[m]: I don't see the point of sly. It's a version of slime where half the useful features are removed.
2020-12-12T17:52:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, swank supports graphics in the repl
2020-12-12T17:52:39Z loke[m]: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, that's pretty cool, although I've never used it in practice.
2020-12-12T17:52:54Z loke[m]: But you can build your own presentations to display Lisp objects.
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2020-12-12T17:53:44Z loke[m]: No just images.
2020-12-12T17:54:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://twitter.com/fwoaroof/status/1086806083916554240?s=20
2020-12-12T17:54:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've used the image stuff a bit
2020-12-12T17:54:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: but mostly toys
2020-12-12T17:55:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: loke[m]: I'm curious about this presentation stuff, though: I've used the basic stuff in the repl
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2020-12-12T18:05:23Z loke[m]: fiddlerwoaroof: I mainly use it to copy/paste the output as an argument to another call.
2020-12-12T18:06:03Z loke[m]: A few commands above the output of some function may have returned some class instance, and it's useful to be able paste it into the arguments to a later call)
2020-12-12T18:06:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, yeah, I use that alot
2020-12-12T18:06:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was thinking there was some way to define custom displays, besides PRINT-OBJECT and friends
2020-12-12T18:07:05Z loke[m]: There is.
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2020-12-12T18:19:57Z fiddlerwoaroof:  j
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2020-12-12T18:51:25Z Xach: loke[m]: sly's trace dialog has been a real helper to me. i'm working on a threaded applicaton and the separate tracing with object persistence is very handy.
2020-12-12T18:53:26Z phoe: we need to merge them back someday
2020-12-12T18:53:30Z phoe: into something called... slyme
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2020-12-12T19:10:58Z easye: phoe: +1 for slyme:  time to end another schism!
2020-12-12T19:12:21Z ck_: will it work on lucid emacs?
2020-12-12T19:12:36Z easye: ck_: OFC.
2020-12-12T19:14:39Z easye: slyme will work everywhere.  Eventually it will replace cider for Clojure while working in VSCode, Atom, and whatever else the flavor of the month becomes.
2020-12-12T19:15:02Z ck_: I'm convinced
2020-12-12T19:15:09Z _death: ynferior modes everywhere
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2020-12-12T20:12:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: One thing I find is that slime-scratch is often better than the slie-repl
2020-12-12T20:12:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: I personally like the ability to just tweak the code and get the output inline in the bufer
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2020-12-12T20:16:09Z asarch: One very very stupid question: roughly, how many lines was the Lisp written in Lisp from back old days?
2020-12-12T20:16:34Z phoe: I don't fully understand it
2020-12-12T20:16:36Z asarch: And, does that Lisp written in Lisp still exist?
2020-12-12T20:16:50Z phoe: which Lisp do you mean? LISP 1.5?
2020-12-12T20:17:51Z asarch: As far I know, there was the first Lisp. Then, there was a Lisp written in Lisp itself
2020-12-12T20:18:46Z asarch: I guess that was long before Common Lisp
2020-12-12T20:18:53Z easye: fiddlerwoaroof: next level after slime-scratch is using org-mode to evaluate code.
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2020-12-12T20:22:12Z easye: for org-mode to use lisp eval (org-babel-do-load-languages 'org-babel-load-languages '((dot . t) (lisp . t)))
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2020-12-12T20:24:40Z easye: Then in any babel source block marked as lisp via `#+begin_src lisp` you can simply C-c C-c to run in the active SLIME repl.
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2020-12-12T20:27:42Z easye: Errat: the `(dot . t)` form isn't necessary, but it is nice to bring graphviz along for the ride...
2020-12-12T20:31:41Z Alfr: asarch, you mean those twenty odd lines for an (not CL) evaluator form the LISP 1.5 Programmer's Manual?
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2020-12-12T20:49:06Z Nilby: asarch: The first Lisp was written on paper by McCarthy, only a couple of pages. The second Lisp was written in machine code by Russell, translated from the paper. From then on Lisps were written in Lisp, as you can see the core of the Lisp 1.5 code is very small.
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2020-12-12T20:50:43Z Nilby: But some people say the first lisp was actually written by Gödel in his most famous paper.
2020-12-12T20:53:21Z thmprover: Who says this?
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2020-12-12T20:53:41Z thmprover: (I heard "Godel" and knew it was my time to shine)
2020-12-12T20:54:27Z easye: Which machine did Betrand Russell write the code for?
2020-12-12T20:54:49Z thmprover: Godel's paper arguably was the first instance of a compiler, since he used Godel numbers to encode logic.
2020-12-12T20:55:23Z easye: Naw, Ada had the basics of compilers a good half-century before.
2020-12-12T20:55:29Z easye: Ada Lovelace
2020-12-12T20:55:51Z thmprover: True, I forgot about that.
2020-12-12T20:56:25Z thmprover: Er, well, Russell didn't write code. Arguably the Principia should be read as source code, the reader was the "machine".
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2020-12-12T20:57:21Z easye: Goedel essentially proved theoretically that the _Principia_ was an impossible project.  Practically it had been abandoned a decade before.
2020-12-12T20:57:52Z thmprover: That was his first incompleteness theorem, but he used Godel numbering to prove it.
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2020-12-12T20:58:20Z thmprover: It would be exciting if he used Lisp, but no :(
2020-12-12T20:58:48Z easye: The Primes are perhaps marginally more foundational than the CONS.
2020-12-12T20:58:49Z thmprover: He fruitlessly spent the remaining 18 years of his life trying to build a time machine to reach a period when Lisp could be enjoyed as freely as today.
2020-12-12T20:58:57Z easye: hah
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2020-12-12T20:59:27Z Nilby: Steve Russell, also write the first video game Spacewar
2020-12-12T20:59:35Z thmprover: Wouldn't multiplication be the cons?
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2020-12-12T21:00:25Z easye: Once you know the CONS, you see it everywhere.
2020-12-12T21:00:40Z easye: Until you start dealing with RDF triples, and then you ain't so sure.
2020-12-12T21:01:40Z easye: Steve Russel wrote Spacewars?  Wow.  I remember somehow seeing it in an arcade in a pizza parlor in the DC beltway in 1978.
2020-12-12T21:02:06Z easye: By random chance.  I was entranced.  Vector graphics rule!
2020-12-12T21:02:40Z easye: Asteroids appeared shortly afterwards, which was definitely more ubiquitous.
2020-12-12T21:03:17Z easye: As far as I know, Spacewars was never released as in an arcade machine from what I could determine.
2020-12-12T21:04:14Z easye: So, I have no idea how I saw it in a pizza parlor.  But it was definitely 1978, as I had just seen _Star Wars_.
2020-12-12T21:04:15Z Nilby: Weirdly, Steve Russell also taught a little Billy Gates how to program.
2020-12-12T21:04:32Z easye: Gee, was Steve Russell at Harvard?
2020-12-12T21:04:56Z Nilby: MIT
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2020-12-12T21:05:56Z easye: So Gates went to MIT to code?  He was a Seattle new-money scion who was in Boston for Harvard where he met Ballmer.  Gates never officially attended MIT from what I know.
2020-12-12T21:07:04Z Nilby: No, Russell was in Seattle after MIT.
2020-12-12T21:07:05Z easye: Was Spacewars in Lisp?
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2020-12-12T21:07:30Z easye: Ah.  So after Billy flunked out, and slunked back to the Left Coast.
2020-12-12T21:07:53Z Nilby: Spacewars was in PDP-1,8,10 assembly I think.
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2020-12-12T21:08:02Z easye: Yeah, that's what I remember.
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2020-12-12T21:08:05Z deltab: easye: I'm reading that Spacewar! (1962) inspired Space Wars, the 1977 arcade game
2020-12-12T21:08:21Z Nilby: Right.
2020-12-12T21:08:30Z easye: Ah, I didn't know Spacewar! was 1962.  That makes sense.
2020-12-12T21:08:47Z easye: That arcade cabinet couldn't even hold a Soviet PDP-8 clone...
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2020-12-12T21:09:16Z Nilby: I played it on a PDP-10 filling 2 rooms with a raised floor.
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2020-12-12T21:09:46Z easye: Although the Soviet clones of the PDP-8 and PDP-11 where definitely *different* than DEC's
2020-12-12T21:10:00Z easye: Er, wait, DEC didn't do PDPs.
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2020-12-12T21:10:22Z easye: Oh, yes they did.
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2020-12-12T21:11:18Z Nilby: PDP-10s ran a lot of cool stuff like the original Spacewar, Lisp, and Emacs.
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2020-12-12T21:11:41Z easye: <https://rusue.com/cemetery-of-soviet-computers/>
2020-12-12T21:13:51Z varjag: i have two soviet sbc pdp-11 clones here
2020-12-12T21:14:22Z easye: varjag: wow.  Can I come see them after the pandemic is over?
2020-12-12T21:14:24Z varjag: still haven't got around to building the psu and current loop terminal adapter
2020-12-12T21:14:33Z Nilby: I love all those switches.
2020-12-12T21:14:55Z varjag: easye: it's not much to see, they are just PCBs
2020-12-12T21:15:32Z varjag: were commonly used as controllers in CNC and industrial systems
2020-12-12T21:15:32Z easye: varjag: Alright.  But someday I'd like to.
2020-12-12T21:17:24Z Nilby: Of course you emulate, but it's not the same without the noise, smell, and glowy phosphor monitors.
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2020-12-12T21:22:13Z easye: I once spoke to an engineer who served on Soviet Boomers (ballistic missile subs).  He described the "computers" that were just mechanical pieces of wire that rotated that provided all the nuke targeting they needed.  The good thing was they were resistant to EMP.
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2020-12-12T21:23:03Z easye: That and the description of being able to throw a tarp over a Flunker interceptor in a field, come back in six-months, and it would fly just made my jaw drop.
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2020-12-12T21:24:00Z easye: For say, an F-15 it was common to have to have the entire ground crew line up to sweep the 100m around the plane for stray bolts that would otherwise get sucked into the engines and destroy it.
2020-12-12T21:24:50Z varjag: easye: this was on the very early missiles only
2020-12-12T21:25:12Z varjag: the guidance design itself copied from v-2
2020-12-12T21:26:56Z Nilby: Last time I saw people standing on the plane, sweeping with brooms, I got a little worried.
2020-12-12T21:28:22Z easye: I didn't realize that the Soviets also used V-2 stuff.  Makes sense, as the Americans didn't get everyone with Operation Paperclip <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip>.  Without that, the US wouldn't have had any chance to match Sputnik.  The Redstone was essentially a V-2.
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2020-12-12T21:29:41Z varjag: the first two soviet ballistic missiles, r-1 and r-2, were complete faithful copies of v-2
2020-12-12T21:29:47Z easye: But there was a lot more native talent rocket enthusiasts in Russia.  It was really Sputnik that kick-started the whole "build a solid state missile in your garage" movement in the 1950-60s
2020-12-12T21:30:00Z varjag: up to r-5 they remained v-2 for the most part
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2020-12-12T21:30:13Z varjag: r-5 introduced warhead separation and was bigger
2020-12-12T21:31:04Z easye: Yeah, I think the Soviets actually overran Pennemuende, right?
2020-12-12T21:31:06Z varjag: r-7 (the predecessor of soyuz) still had some of design elements from v-2
2020-12-12T21:31:29Z varjag: i think so yes, but it was abandoned relatively early in the war
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2020-12-12T21:32:11Z srandon111: guys does clojure have cons ?
2020-12-12T21:32:19Z srandon111: https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/cons
2020-12-12T21:32:23Z srandon111:  i mean i didn't know
2020-12-12T21:32:35Z srandon111: why there is people saying that clojure does not have cons ?
2020-12-12T21:32:57Z thmprover: People are *wrong* on the internet?!
2020-12-12T21:33:39Z ane: srandon111: maybe they mean clojure lists aren't based on cons cells?
2020-12-12T21:33:46Z thmprover: Clojure is a weird lisp/haskell/java hybrid.
2020-12-12T21:33:46Z Nilby: Clojure has a cons function but it returns a seq not a cons.
2020-12-12T21:36:25Z varjag: it appears to take sequence as its 2nd arg too
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2020-12-12T21:36:35Z varjag: can you (cons 1 2) in clojure?
2020-12-12T21:36:41Z travv0: nope
2020-12-12T21:36:53Z travv0: also a seq and sequence are two different concepts in clojure
2020-12-12T21:36:56Z travv0: but this is pretty off-topic
2020-12-12T21:37:30Z easye: So was rockets, for which I apologize.
2020-12-12T21:37:33Z thmprover: Well, `cons` creates a new Cons object
2020-12-12T21:37:43Z thmprover: OR a new PersistentList object.
2020-12-12T21:38:02Z thmprover: But the second-argument to Clojure's "cons" must be a seq of some kind.
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2020-12-12T21:41:06Z Nilby: Clojure conses up seqs with cons. CONS conses up conses that can be sequences.
2020-12-12T21:41:39Z thmprover: Now that's reasonable, I can get behind a proposal like that.
2020-12-12T21:42:02Z Nilby: :D
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2020-12-12T21:43:42Z Nilby : striving towards reasonable confusion since 2024.
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2020-12-12T21:48:00Z deltab watches a game of Spacewar! and more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EWQYAfuMYw
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2020-12-12T21:51:22Z thmprover: Lisp in small pieces is on sale for...$547.77...
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2020-12-12T21:52:51Z curiouscain: Bargain!
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2020-12-12T21:58:40Z travv0: i'd be willing to part with my copy for $400
2020-12-12T21:59:46Z easye: _LiSP_ is a very cool text.  I didn't make it through the last few chapters.
2020-12-12T22:00:39Z thmprover: Eh, looking through the preview, it's the same dialog style as "The little prover", which...well, it didn't work for me.
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2020-12-12T22:01:36Z no-defun-allowed: I don't remember that, but I read LiSP approximately too long ago.
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2020-12-12T22:03:40Z travv0: lisp in small pieces isn't dialogue-style like the little prover/schemer
2020-12-12T22:04:07Z thmprover: Oh wait, I'm mixing up LiSP with the Little Lisper, gah
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2020-12-12T22:04:34Z thmprover: (Amazon recommended the Little Lisper as a consolation prize)
2020-12-12T22:06:09Z easye: _LiSP_ starts out easy, but really ramps up in difficulty towards the end.
2020-12-12T22:07:13Z hendursaga: thmprover: That's just the hard-cover though?
2020-12-12T22:07:51Z easye: But _LiSP_ definitely is one of my "Desert Island Lisp Books".  No other book that I know of actually goes into such detail about implementation.
2020-12-12T22:08:45Z thmprover: henursaga: yeah, though I prefer hard-cover when possible (since paperbacks tend to get badly mangled by the ravages of time...at least, in my care)
2020-12-12T22:08:49Z Nilby: I'm offically voiding copyright on long out of print books. Cheers.
2020-12-12T22:09:19Z thmprover: easye: yeah, that's what piqued my interest.
2020-12-12T22:11:22Z thmprover: I'm trying to write a "case study" of a literate program which is a verified implementation of a Lisp interpreter...which is how LiSP came across my radar.
2020-12-12T22:12:26Z srandon111: ane, thmprover do you think common lisp has advantages over clojure these days ?
2020-12-12T22:12:38Z no-defun-allowed: What verification would you do?
2020-12-12T22:12:59Z thmprover: srandon111: Common Lisp's performance is much better than Clojure (I work with Clojure and Clojurescript for a living)
2020-12-12T22:13:10Z no-defun-allowed: The CL condition and object systems are unparalleled, and Clojure doesn't even try.
2020-12-12T22:13:33Z easye is an old dog at this point, who doesn't want to learn new Clojure tricks.
2020-12-12T22:13:56Z thmprover: no-defun-allowed: I would need to write a spec for the small Lisp fragment, then use a theorem prover to demonstrate the interpreter faithfully implements the spec. Or do it by hand.
2020-12-12T22:15:19Z no-defun-allowed: I see. What could you specify?
2020-12-12T22:15:44Z thmprover: This is just a writing experiment to see if I could write a literate program, combined with some form of "literate formal proof".
2020-12-12T22:15:56Z Nilby: srandon111: A programming language is for you to express programs, so why should it matter what other people think? If you like a language, then it's good for you.
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2020-12-12T22:16:54Z thmprover: no-defun-allowed: I would probably have several coupled together. A spec for an SECD machine, then a spec for compiling Lisp to the SECD machine instructions, and a third spec for the syntax & semantics of my Lisp fragment.
2020-12-12T22:18:05Z thmprover: I would then need to prove formally that "the diagram commutes" (i.e., if I had a Lisp tree-walking interpreter which faithfully adhered to the semantics of the spec, it would produce the same behavior as the SECD interpreted bytecode).
2020-12-12T22:18:14Z no-defun-allowed: Righteo.
2020-12-12T22:18:52Z no-defun-allowed: I recall that from an ACL2 tutorial. They wrote a stack machine, an interpreter for a language, and a compiler, and proved that the interpreter and stack machine did the same thing.
2020-12-12T22:19:36Z thmprover: srandon111: also the STM for Clojure, while really sophisticated, leads to bloated memory usage UNLESS you are very careful about managing memory with various coding conventions.
2020-12-12T22:21:17Z thmprover: no-defun-allowed: Fascinating! My own experiment stems from a larger project I'm working on, namely, writing a book on theorem provers for mathematicians "from scratch". I'll have to look at that ACL2 tutorial, but I'm basically working with a Blub language + Hoare triples.
2020-12-12T22:22:42Z thmprover: srandon111: in short, unless you are very diligent with your programming, CL is a friendlier language (in my mind)
2020-12-12T22:26:16Z ane: srandon111: yes, the condition system and CLOS make it easier to build large scale programs
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2020-12-12T22:33:23Z entre-parenteses 
2020-12-12T22:33:37Z phoe: entre-parenteses: yes
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2020-12-12T22:33:57Z entre-parenteses: Sorry, new to IRC and testing stuff out...
2020-12-12T22:34:18Z phoe: welcome to IRC then! to the channel #lisp on IRC network Freenode, to be exact
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2020-12-12T22:35:11Z entre-parenteses: Many thanks!  Hopefully I'm not being too disruptive with my fiddling.
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2020-12-12T22:39:06Z thmprover: entre-parenteses: I fear you are too polite for the internet.
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2020-12-12T22:39:52Z Nilby: We do have fiddlers here.
2020-12-12T22:40:17Z easye watches Rome burn.
2020-12-12T22:41:31Z entre-parenteses: thmprover: Haha, maybe.  Just don't want to break too many rules from the get-go.  I'm relatively new to CL and hoping to not burn bridges (or Rome) with the community.
2020-12-12T22:42:10Z entre-parenteses: There's a lot to learn.
2020-12-12T22:44:00Z phoe: well then, welcome
2020-12-12T22:44:14Z phoe: #lisp is for general CL discussion, ##lisp is for discussion of all Lisp dialects
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2020-12-12T22:44:33Z phoe: #lispcafe is for off-topic chat and #clschool is a place where beginners can ask questions
2020-12-12T22:46:24Z phoe: if #clschool is silent, then go to #lisp; if #lisp is occupied with elsething, go to #clschool
2020-12-12T22:46:28Z phoe: that's the summary of everything.
2020-12-12T22:46:45Z Nilby: The more Lisp you learn, the less Lisp you know.
2020-12-12T22:46:54Z easye watches phoe drop the mic,
2020-12-12T22:46:56Z ane: the more lisp, the more lisp
2020-12-12T22:47:29Z phoe: easye: wait, where do I drop the mic and how
2020-12-12T22:47:31Z Nilby: e.g. #<pathname>s
2020-12-12T22:47:45Z phoe: wait, this implies that pathnames are unreadable'
2020-12-12T22:47:50Z phoe: ...oh, I see
2020-12-12T22:47:53Z phoe: touche, I enjoyed that one
2020-12-12T22:48:23Z easye: kick it on over here baby-pops, and let the old-school rule.
2020-12-12T22:48:58Z phoe: :(
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2020-12-12T23:05:52Z lotuseater: good evening. hope all your parentheses are balanced :)
2020-12-12T23:06:00Z phoe: (
2020-12-12T23:08:45Z no-defun-allowed: )
2020-12-12T23:09:25Z phoe: sike, I caught your nickname between the parens
2020-12-12T23:09:29Z phoe goes to sleep, it's about time.
2020-12-12T23:10:58Z thmprover: I guess that means you'll be executed :o
2020-12-12T23:11:50Z no-defun-allowed: The function COMMON-LISP:*NO-DEFUN-ALLOWED* is undefined.
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2020-12-12T23:16:42Z phoe: (defun no-defun-allowed () (setf (macro-function 'cl:defun) nil) (unintern 'cl:defun :cl) nil)
2020-12-12T23:19:25Z Nilby: (save-lisp-and-sleep)
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2020-12-12T23:34:27Z asarch: "Abstract
2020-12-12T23:34:28Z asarch: In 1935/1936 Kurt Gödel wrote three notebooks on the foundations of quantum mechanics, which have now been entirely transcribed for the first time. Whereas a lot of the material is rather technical in character, many of Gödel's remarks have a philosophical background and concentrate on Leibnizian monadology as well as on vitalism. Obviously influenced by the vitalistic writings of Hans Driesch and his ‘proofs’ for the exis
2020-12-12T23:34:28Z asarch: tence of an entelechy in every living organism, Gödel briefly develops the idea of a computing machine which closely resembles Turing's groundbreaking conception. After introducing the notebooks on quantum mechanics, this article describes Gödel's vitalistic Weltbild and the ideas leading to the development of his computing machine. It investigates a notion of lawlike sequence which closely resembles Turing's concept of a computabl
2020-12-12T23:34:31Z asarch: e number and which Gödel himself calls ‘problematic’, and compares it to the opposed concept of randomness, drawing upon the notion of program-size complexity. Finally, Gödel's machine is implemented in a dialect of the Lisp programing language."
2020-12-12T23:34:41Z asarch: Oh, sorry
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2020-12-12T23:34:52Z asarch: This Gödel?
2020-12-12T23:36:54Z lotuseater: asarch: his notebooks on QM are more on the logic, aren't they?
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2020-12-12T23:38:45Z Bike: sounds like a neat paper though.
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2020-12-12T23:39:14Z lotuseater: oh funny: Penrose–Lucas argument "Claim that human mathematicians are not describable as formal proof systems"
2020-12-12T23:39:14Z lotuseater:  
2020-12-12T23:41:25Z lotuseater: the more beginning mathematical foundations for how to calculate in QM were given mostly by John von Neumann or let's say condensed
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2020-12-12T23:48:41Z asarch_ is now known as asarch
2020-12-12T23:49:09Z asarch: XBox + Fornite = a nightmare for your Internet connection here in México
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2020-12-12T23:51:27Z lotuseater: so how's the situation with lisp in México? :)
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2020-12-12T23:53:51Z asarch: Well, a friends of mine were discussing about Hamilton code for landing on the moon: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Margaret_Hamilton_-_restoration.jpg
2020-12-12T23:54:32Z asarch: And I just was wondered about the programming language she used for that
2020-12-12T23:54:46Z lotuseater: oh I like that picture :3
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2020-12-12T23:55:30Z asarch: Because it seem to much for me because, well, the processors that were available back old days, you know
2020-12-12T23:56:25Z asarch: I mean, that was the reason of the size of Lisp written in Lisp
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2020-12-12T23:57:49Z lotuseater: yes or when you look on Stuart Russell handcompiling the stuff on IBM704 for writing EVAL
2020-12-12T23:58:34Z asarch: Is it still available the Lisp on Lisp code?
2020-12-12T23:58:57Z asarch: Or even Russell's code?
2020-12-13T00:00:55Z lotuseater: hm don't know. but the goal was the metacircular evaluator. even John McCarthy said first it isn't intended to do :D
2020-12-13T00:01:39Z lotuseater: then in a paper of Timothy Hart in 1963 macros came to lisp, but what i found online is not readable
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2020-12-13T00:12:30Z defunkydrummer: lotuseater: Steve Russell
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2020-12-13T00:12:51Z defunkydrummer: not Stuart
2020-12-13T00:13:12Z lotuseater: defunkydrummer: damn how came Stuart to my mind? o_O thx so much
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2020-12-13T00:14:41Z lotuseater: as long as not to confuse with Bertrand Russell :)
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2020-12-13T00:18:02Z thmprover: Ah yes, Cambridge personality Bertie "Mad Dog" Russell, who famously said, "It all depends on what the meaning of 'is' is."
2020-12-13T00:18:37Z elflng: i always thought that was the expresident trying to defend himself in the impeachment trials.
2020-12-13T00:18:40Z elflng: (clinton)
2020-12-13T00:19:17Z Bike: nah it's in On Denoting
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2020-12-13T01:25:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: easye: org-mode is great, I find there's too much ceremony for getting my thoughts into the computer when I'm in the flow
2020-12-13T01:26:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: (coding, that is)
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2020-12-13T01:52:53Z emacsomancer: fiddlerwoaroof: org-capture templates make it a lot easier to quickly dump from short-term wetware memory into org
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2020-12-13T02:01:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: emacsomancer: yeah, my problem is different: scratch-style code evaluation is great for quickly iterating to a solution to a set problem
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2020-12-13T02:01:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: org SRC blocks also work, but I've found them a bit awkward during the prototyping phase
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2020-12-13T02:02:29Z emacsomancer: fiddlerwoaroof: I see. so not the initial creation of the blocks, but subsequent interactions?
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2020-12-13T02:23:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: emacsomancer: yeah, I really like org-mode for documentation and "blogging" about code.
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2020-12-13T02:36:03Z mister_m: I saw it mentioned in the upscroll; is the book lisp in small pieces suitable for someone relatively new to lisp?
2020-12-13T02:36:20Z Bike: probably not, honestly
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2020-12-13T02:47:48Z mister_m: Bike: thanks
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2020-12-13T03:01:41Z thmprover: I'm actually having some difficulty getting into the hang of literate programming in org-mode.
2020-12-13T03:04:11Z lotuseater: so what problem specifically?
2020-12-13T03:06:04Z thmprover: Literate programming (in the Knuth sense) is difficult, but getting org-mode to export the correct HTML is tedious. It feels like I'm fighting against the tide.
2020-12-13T03:06:30Z lotuseater: do you know pandoc?
2020-12-13T03:06:55Z thmprover: Yes, I dislike it.
2020-12-13T03:06:59Z lotuseater: why?
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2020-12-13T03:07:34Z thmprover: I take advantage of a lot of custom TeX macros, and they don't play nice with pandoc.
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2020-12-13T03:07:59Z lotuseater: ah yes that's a tradeoff
2020-12-13T03:08:41Z thmprover: I mean, I can see pandoc's appeal to the generic user, but I'm the "crazed TeX survivalist"-type user.
2020-12-13T03:08:56Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, pandoc doesn't properly run TeX. So I use htlatex and fix up a bit of the nonsense it emits with a script that runs sed.
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2020-12-13T03:10:05Z thmprover: I'm starting to explore htlatex to translate this manuscript I'm writing on theorem provers to HTML, it's a nifty program, but so...niche.
2020-12-13T03:10:56Z no-defun-allowed: Specifically, we use https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/documentation/-/blob/master/make-htlatex.sh and that ends up making https://cal-coop.gitlab.io/netfarm/documentation/ which is...bearable.
2020-12-13T03:11:02Z lotuseater: a friend of mine also showed me this half a year ago, maybe it's of use for anyone else: https://latex.now.sh/
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2020-12-13T03:11:36Z lotuseater: no-defun-allowed: nice look!
2020-12-13T03:12:36Z no-defun-allowed: It seems likely thmprover wants to use a LaTeX document to make HTML.
2020-12-13T03:12:42Z thmprover: lotuseater: the rendering is, I can't quite put my finger on it, the fonts are slightly mismatched. The CMR is too light compared to the monotype font weight.
2020-12-13T03:12:57Z lotuseater: ok
2020-12-13T03:13:11Z thmprover: It's nifty, but not for me.
2020-12-13T03:14:18Z lotuseater: how do i in org-mode set globally to tangle all blocks? except the ones with ":tangle no"
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2020-12-13T03:16:34Z thmprover: "#+OPTION: :tangle <file>"
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2020-12-13T03:16:37Z thmprover: (I think)
2020-12-13T03:16:49Z lotuseater: ah yes thx
2020-12-13T03:17:10Z thmprover: np
2020-12-13T03:17:22Z lotuseater: just taking org-mode and all its features is soo much :D
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2020-12-13T03:18:23Z thmprover: I'm trying to work with it to write my notes on earth science, but it's...I don't know...
2020-12-13T03:19:04Z thmprover: I sense I am doing things wrong with org-mode, but I don't know what "doing things right" looks like, and the only talks on it seem to be excited users talking about how great it is.
2020-12-13T03:21:20Z thmprover: Maybe I should go complain on #org-mode about org-mode
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2020-12-13T03:30:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I used custom TeX macros all the time with pandoc
2020-12-13T03:31:34Z thmprover: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm doing pretty tricky macro stuff, which takes advantage of the dynamic scoping of TeX (and I think confuses pandoc)
2020-12-13T03:31:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting
2020-12-13T03:32:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: The most complicated I had were Tikz diagrams
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2020-12-13T03:34:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I was writing humanities papers, which are somewhat less involved
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2020-12-13T03:40:10Z no-defun-allowed: Well, I don't know if pandoc does any macroexpansion. It just ignored my \Defun commands.
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2020-12-13T03:53:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I mostly relied on latex being passed through in md -> latex conversion
2020-12-13T03:53:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've never tried latex as an input format
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2020-12-13T03:55:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: One thing I find interesting about SLIME, is that it doesn't seem to make much use of generic functions or EIEIO
2020-12-13T03:56:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe it's too old, but I've found it pretty useful for managing my emacs configuration
2020-12-13T03:56:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: (eq it 'SLIME)
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2020-12-13T04:10:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-12-13T04:11:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning, beach
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2020-12-13T05:37:27Z saganman: Morning beach
2020-12-13T05:37:32Z saganman: Morning Everyone!
2020-12-13T05:37:41Z beach: Hello saganman.
2020-12-13T05:38:00Z saganman: Hey beach.
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2020-12-13T06:27:50Z badcfe: in 'on lisp' fig 14.3 there's a aif2 that seems wrong to me.  but i see this is not in the errata, and i'm not really a lisper, hence i am guessing i'm wrong
2020-12-13T06:28:54Z beach: Let me check
2020-12-13T06:30:16Z badcfe: on the forth line there, i see (if (or it ,win) ,then ,else)) .. and i am thinking it should be (if ,win ,then ,else)
2020-12-13T06:31:05Z beach: I guess that depends on how he specified what should happen with the values of the test.
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2020-12-13T06:32:16Z badcfe: yes, and it's not even specified, but there's also a usage example, which makes me think what i mention here
2020-12-13T06:32:30Z badcfe: s/even/only/
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2020-12-13T06:32:43Z badcfe: s/forth/fourth/
2020-12-13T06:32:56Z badcfe: late for me.  sorry
2020-12-13T06:32:59Z beach: Ah, yes, let me look at the example.
2020-12-13T06:33:44Z beach: Won't the two versions have the same effect for GETHASH.
2020-12-13T06:33:46Z beach: ?
2020-12-13T06:34:09Z beach: If the first value is true, then so is the second.
2020-12-13T06:34:48Z beach: But, yes, I think you may be right.
2020-12-13T06:35:13Z beach: Then, I just barely finished my morning coffee, so opinions of others are welcome.
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2020-12-13T06:43:10Z beach: It was a while ago that I read On Lisp, but now I see that AIF2 solves a major problem with the single-value version, namely that, if you respect the advice of Norvig and Pitman of using only Boolean expressions as the test in IF, then the "IT" of AIF will never be a useful value.
2020-12-13T06:44:09Z badcfe: i see now, that it doesn't matter, because both are null iff we shall branch to ,else -- if we can assume that any function indicating not-found on second return value will always have a null first return value as well, in other words that we have a functional dependency (sorry to use database theory term here).  however, i think my variant is more intuitive in addition to be shorter
2020-12-13T06:44:36Z beach: I agree with your assessment.
2020-12-13T06:47:50Z badcfe: hey thanks.  maybe i should submit as errata.
2020-12-13T06:48:36Z beach: Sure.  It can't hurt.
2020-12-13T06:48:52Z badcfe: about that advice you mention, you suggest it as practice?  i'm just curious
2020-12-13T06:49:53Z beach: Which one?
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2020-12-13T06:50:31Z beach: I try as much as possible to follow the advice of page 13 of the LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman, if that's what you are asking.
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2020-12-13T06:50:52Z beach: So yes, I use only Boolean values for tests.
2020-12-13T06:51:15Z badcfe: yes, that's what i was asking.  i guess my next read should be LUV
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2020-12-13T06:51:58Z beach: I like it very much.  It was written by two people with a lot more experience with software development in larger teams than I will ever have.
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2020-12-13T06:52:44Z beach: Many #lisp participants contest their advice, but I think I know for a fact that the people who do contest it have way less experience than these two people have.
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2020-12-13T08:16:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: If these are the notes you're talking about, they're pretty interesting: https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf
2020-12-13T08:18:02Z beach: Yes, that's it.
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2020-12-13T08:19:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I always forget CATCH/THROW exist
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2020-12-13T08:21:06Z phoe: regarding 4.3? that's sorta good
2020-12-13T08:21:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
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2020-12-13T08:21:52Z phoe: they very rarely need to be used, given that non-local GO/RETURN-FROM also exist and are slightly safer to use
2020-12-13T08:22:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, the main difference is dynamic extent of CATCH, right?
2020-12-13T08:22:20Z phoe: ...unless they leak out of their dynamic scope, but that is usually not very hard to spot in code
2020-12-13T08:22:23Z phoe: yes
2020-12-13T08:22:38Z phoe: CATCH is fully dynamic, which also means it's a wee bit slower
2020-12-13T08:22:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I actually just had a problem that is shaped this way :)
2020-12-13T08:22:54Z phoe: but THROW doesn't need to lexically match a CATCH form, which is also much more general
2020-12-13T08:23:21Z phoe: so if you don't feel like passing a closure all the way to your non-local jump site, THROW might be a good option
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2020-12-13T08:36:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I needed to figure out a good way to avoid doing extra work with taking here: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/3cf12f4c0037cce4021a1da07bf2da76051bc425.lisp.html
2020-12-13T08:37:27Z phoe: what do you mean, extra work?
2020-12-13T08:37:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Obviously, with the LABELS implementation I can just use a block, but this is just for convenient prototyping
2020-12-13T08:38:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: The lines beginning with `>>>` show every invocation of the inner function in TAKING
2020-12-13T08:38:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: TAKING is supposed to only process N elements of the collection being worked on, and ignore the rest
2020-12-13T08:38:47Z phoe: is the second code block good then? the outut seems consistent with what is processed
2020-12-13T08:39:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, THROW allowed me to implement EXIT-EARLY
2020-12-13T08:39:11Z phoe: yes
2020-12-13T08:39:37Z phoe: the only other option is to pass a closure all the way to TAKING, which might or might not be viable in your case
2020-12-13T08:39:45Z phoe: or use conditions, which will be slower.
2020-12-13T08:39:52Z phoe: so THROW seems like a decent fit in this case
2020-12-13T08:40:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I thought of conditions but those also just feel semantically wrong for this
2020-12-13T08:40:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: maybe a signal that doesn't inherit from condition would be ok
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2020-12-13T08:40:36Z phoe: you mean from warning/error?
2020-12-13T08:40:49Z phoe: all conditions, by definition, inherit from type CONDITION
2020-12-13T08:41:03Z phoe: and those non-error ones would be semantically valid to use here
2020-12-13T08:41:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sorry, I think I was confused
2020-12-13T08:41:20Z phoe: you signal a situation that you found a match of some sort
2020-12-13T08:41:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I meant using SIGNAL instead of ERROR/WARN
2020-12-13T08:41:40Z phoe: and it's up to the code around this call to handle or ignore it. this includes optionally performing a non-local jump.
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2020-12-13T08:42:13Z phoe: so using HANDLER-CASE over SIGNAL would be equivalent to THROW/CATCH, but also very likely it would be slower because of walking the handler stack and performing runtime type checks.
2020-12-13T08:42:37Z phoe: see https://gist.github.com/nikodemus/b461ab9146a3397dd93e
2020-12-13T08:42:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2020-12-13T08:43:10Z phoe: so you're good with THROW/CATCH in this case, it seems like the proper primitive for bailing out early in this case.
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2020-12-13T08:44:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I just never actually think about it
2020-12-13T08:44:38Z phoe: well now you did think about it, most likely because you actually found a use case for it
2020-12-13T08:44:49Z phoe: and CL delivers. :D
2020-12-13T08:45:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: One reason I like CL is that every programmer/team has their own dialect
2020-12-13T08:45:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is true in most languages, but I find the variations in CL more interesting
2020-12-13T08:49:53Z phoe: that's both a boon and a challenge
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2020-12-13T08:50:08Z phoe: synchronizing different minds is real tricky in Common Lisp because of that trait.
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2020-12-13T08:56:31Z no-defun-allowed: Hypothetically, you at least have a definition of all the dialect-y stuff in a common language, which may not be the case for human languages.
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2020-12-13T09:29:22Z ldb: good evening
2020-12-13T09:29:35Z beach: Hello ldb.
2020-12-13T09:31:35Z ldb: my spell check program prototype takes very long time to input a dictionary of 10,000 words
2020-12-13T09:32:04Z phoe: I remember that beach and I collaborated on a spellchecker once; https://github.com/robert-strandh/Spell
2020-12-13T09:32:25Z beach: ldb: I suggest you save as a Common Lisp data structure so that you can just do a READ.
2020-12-13T09:34:37Z ldb: it is due to the data structure I use requires a lot of comparison between nodes when build from a list of sorted words
2020-12-13T09:34:49Z phoe: ldb: what is your data structure?
2020-12-13T09:35:10Z beach: ldb: So don't build it every time you load it.
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2020-12-13T09:35:42Z beach: ldb: Build it once from the source data, and save the built data structure using PRINT.
2020-12-13T09:36:43Z phoe: beach: currently, Spell saves it to a FASL. It has no facilities for printing that data.
2020-12-13T09:36:43Z Nilby: as you may known, things with lists can unintentionally get O(n^2) or worse very quickly
2020-12-13T09:37:23Z ldb: it requires 2 minitues on a test input of 10,000 words, but my actual input is 500,000 words, and building from larger dictionary takes extra comparsions
2020-12-13T09:38:28Z beach: ldb: Maybe you have some non-linear algorithm in your build code.
2020-12-13T09:38:43Z ldb: phoe: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220355507_Incremental_Construction_of_Minimal_Acyclic_Finite-State_Automata
2020-12-13T09:39:47Z ldb: beach: yes, I realized every time a new node is added it has to be compared by almost every existed nodes, to minimize the data structure
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2020-12-13T09:41:28Z beach: Not surprising then.
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2020-12-13T09:45:05Z phoe: that's painful - and O(n²)
2020-12-13T09:46:42Z ldb: ok, instead of a naive list, I can keep a lookup table with a bool and the number of children as index keys to do a pre-filtering
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2020-12-13T09:49:29Z ldb: is there a quick way to compare two assoc lists? the order doesn't matter, then only requirement is that each pair with #'eql keys should be has #'eq values
2020-12-13T09:49:48Z ldb: and the number of pairs are same
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2020-12-13T09:51:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: compare?
2020-12-13T09:51:53Z Nilby: Usually if you have more than about 12 elements in a alist it will be faster with a hash table.
2020-12-13T09:52:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: You're going to have to check every key/value pair, no?
2020-12-13T09:52:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: It'll be O(n) regardless
2020-12-13T09:53:02Z ldb: *check equality
2020-12-13T09:53:29Z ldb: Nilby: mostly 1~5 pairs
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2020-12-13T10:28:53Z Nilby: Hmm. I have 1gb databse with 10m words that takes about 20 secs to load and full regexp search, and I thought it's way too slow.
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2020-12-13T10:31:08Z ldb: 1gb takes long time to do IO
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2020-12-13T10:52:51Z Nilby: The raw IO for 1gb only takes about 1.6 secs for me, and that's longer than it should.
2020-12-13T10:53:35Z Nilby: (on an old laptop, but with an ssd)
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2020-12-13T13:17:15Z marcoxa: Just pitched in some Euros for CLCS :)
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2020-12-13T13:17:29Z phoe: <3
2020-12-13T13:18:09Z marcoxa: I swear.  It'a a gift for my mother in law :)
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2020-12-13T13:19:43Z phoe: does your mother in law know Lisp?
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2020-12-13T13:22:46Z marcoxa: she know how to order people around.
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2020-12-13T13:27:08Z puchacz: hi, is hash-table in abcl synchronized?
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2020-12-13T13:39:24Z Nilby: puchacz: It looks synchronized to me from reading the code, but I haven't tried it. If you want your code to work on other implementations you could wrap in bordeaux-threads:with-lock-held .
2020-12-13T13:39:35Z puchacz: Nilby - thanks
2020-12-13T13:39:46Z puchacz: the manual does not say anything, but the code is better than manual
2020-12-13T13:40:01Z puchacz: and yeah, wrapping with bt will solve ambiguities
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2020-12-13T13:42:06Z Nilby: The problem is it's still a race condition if your code does a (gethash val table) and then later does a (setf (gethash val table) ..) presuming the results of the previous gethash are still valid.
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2020-12-13T13:43:02Z puchacz: yes
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2020-12-13T13:47:48Z Nilby: I looked in abcl/src/org/armedbear/lisp/HashTable.java in case you want to check.
2020-12-13T13:48:00Z puchacz: tks
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2020-12-13T14:09:20Z phoe: puchacz: hmmmm, maybe easye can answer that
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2020-12-13T14:11:40Z puchacz: phone - if undocumented, for more serious work I would rather wrap it
2020-12-13T14:11:50Z phoe: so would I, yes
2020-12-13T14:12:12Z phoe: but still, maybe that needs to be clarified in the abcl docs.
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2020-12-13T14:14:38Z puchacz: sorry, Michał, typo, "phoe" of course :)
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2020-12-13T14:21:41Z phoe: :D
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2020-12-13T14:31:06Z nwoob: is there a better programming experience for CL from emacs?
2020-12-13T14:31:21Z beach: Better than what?
2020-12-13T14:31:27Z nwoob: better than emacs
2020-12-13T14:31:39Z beach: Oh, better THAN Emacs?
2020-12-13T14:31:46Z beach: Not at the moment I think.
2020-12-13T14:31:55Z beach: But we are working on it. :)
2020-12-13T14:31:58Z phoe: nwoob: depends on your definition of "better"
2020-12-13T14:32:02Z beach: Give us few more years.
2020-12-13T14:32:16Z phoe: there are swank/sly clients for VSCode, Atom, and Sublime Text
2020-12-13T14:32:21Z phoe: there's also slimv/vlime for Vim.
2020-12-13T14:32:32Z nwoob: I looked how to compile CL program and found C-c C-k to evaluate buffer, but C-c C-k is undefined
2020-12-13T14:32:50Z beach: Are you using SLIME?
2020-12-13T14:32:53Z nwoob: yes
2020-12-13T14:33:25Z nwoob: I have a scratch opened and it says Lisp interaction at the bottom right
2020-12-13T14:33:53Z nwoob: in there i'm typing CL code and trying to compile the function so that I can use that function in aline-repl
2020-12-13T14:33:59Z beach: No, it should be a buffer *slime-repl...*
2020-12-13T14:34:29Z phoe: you should be able to type something in the scratch buffer, like (defun foo (x) (+ x 42)) and then hit C-c C-c on it
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2020-12-13T14:34:43Z phoe: it should get compile-and-loaded and you should be able to call (foo 24) in the REPL.
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2020-12-13T14:35:10Z nwoob: phoe: that's what I'm trying to do. but C-c C-k is undefined
2020-12-13T14:35:39Z beach: nwoob: That command is valid in a Lisp source code buffer.
2020-12-13T14:35:40Z phoe: in the lisp buffer, M-x lisp-mode <RET>
2020-12-13T14:35:55Z beach: nwoob: In the REPL buffer, just type forms.
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2020-12-13T14:41:13Z marcoxa: Where can I find a link for swank/slime for VS Studio 2019?
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2020-12-13T14:41:38Z nwoob: Turns out I need to save scratch buffer code. I saved code in test.lisp and then did C-c C-k and it is working
2020-12-13T14:41:44Z phoe: marcoxa: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=rheller.alive
2020-12-13T14:41:52Z phoe: nwoob: oh, good
2020-12-13T14:42:13Z nwoob: I thought I could evaluate buffer without saving
2020-12-13T14:42:21Z phoe: only individual expressions within a buffer
2020-12-13T14:42:31Z phoe: C-c C-c should work in there
2020-12-13T14:42:40Z phoe: but C-c C-k requires a saved file.
2020-12-13T14:42:47Z nwoob: in scratch buffer, right
2020-12-13T14:42:51Z marcoxa: Thanks phoe
2020-12-13T14:42:58Z nwoob: which emacs puts by default in lisp mode
2020-12-13T14:44:05Z hendursaga: Besides SBCL, what other implementations have the disassemble function disassemble to assembly language, not bytecode or C?
2020-12-13T14:45:28Z phoe: CCL?
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2020-12-13T14:46:10Z puchacz: btw, why do people choose CCL over SBCL?
2020-12-13T14:46:22Z phoe: blazing fast compiler compared to SBCL's
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2020-12-13T14:46:38Z phoe: also a nice macOS IDE built-in.
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2020-12-13T14:46:58Z phoe: and AFAIK some Cocoa/ObjC bindings that SBCL does not have.
2020-12-13T14:47:30Z Nilby: CCL aslo has no memory limits, and can call C code with structs by value without libffi
2020-12-13T14:50:22Z hendursaga: sounds cool
2020-12-13T14:51:02Z beach: hendursaga: I would think any Common Lisp implementation that generates native code would disassemble to assembly language for the platform it is running on.
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2020-12-13T14:53:01Z hendursaga: so I guess that excludes ECL then
2020-12-13T14:53:57Z beach: Good question.  I suppose jackdaniel would know since he is the maintainer of ECL
2020-12-13T14:56:28Z hendursaga: I tried it and it outputs C code, so unless there's an additional setting somewhere..
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2020-12-13T15:02:27Z nwoob: it is bad programming style to change local variable values, so why is it ok to change global variable values?
2020-12-13T15:02:47Z beach: It is not bad to change the value of lexical (local) variables.
2020-12-13T15:02:54Z phoe: nwoob: what do you mean, change?
2020-12-13T15:02:58Z phoe: you mean mutate or rebind?
2020-12-13T15:03:08Z beach: nwoob: It is known as "imperative programming".
2020-12-13T15:03:08Z nwoob: mutate
2020-12-13T15:03:39Z nwoob: I'm learning CL from book called CL: a gentle guide to symbolic programming and it is written there
2020-12-13T15:03:41Z nwoob: beach:
2020-12-13T15:03:48Z phoe: hmmm, global mutable state comes with obvious multithreading issues
2020-12-13T15:03:59Z beach: nwoob: I am sorry to hear that.
2020-12-13T15:04:03Z phoe: which chapter is that? maybe I can get some context
2020-12-13T15:04:27Z nwoob: phoe: chapter 5 page 140
2020-12-13T15:04:44Z nwoob: beach: why are you saying sorry to hear?
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2020-12-13T15:06:25Z nwoob: sorry I got disconnected
2020-12-13T15:06:29Z beach: nwoob: Because it is not generally bad to change the value of lexical variables, so if this advice is presented as a general rule, then that is very sad indeed.
2020-12-13T15:06:43Z nwoob: oh
2020-12-13T15:06:46Z beach: But I am guessing that there is some context that phoe will find.
2020-12-13T15:07:01Z nwoob: phoe: I am on chapter 5 page 140
2020-12-13T15:07:14Z beach: nwoob: Like I said, that's what "imperative programming" generally does.
2020-12-13T15:07:29Z nwoob: yes
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2020-12-13T15:09:14Z puchacz: people who think "imperative programming" is badder than functional invent (crazy?) languages without mutation....
2020-12-13T15:09:20Z nwoob: beach: CL has more imperative approach or functional approach?
2020-12-13T15:09:32Z puchacz: I use a lot of imperative programming
2020-12-13T15:10:02Z phoe: nwoob: neither
2020-12-13T15:10:06Z phoe: it's up to the programmer to decide.
2020-12-13T15:10:49Z nwoob: do generally programmer mix those style?
2020-12-13T15:10:55Z phoe: yes
2020-12-13T15:10:59Z puchacz: I do
2020-12-13T15:11:02Z nwoob: or is it better to stick to one?
2020-12-13T15:11:08Z phoe: why?
2020-12-13T15:11:18Z phoe: if a problem looks like a functional one, solve it with functional tools
2020-12-13T15:11:25Z phoe: if a problem looks like an object-oriented one, solve it with OO tools
2020-12-13T15:11:42Z phoe: if your problem is a mixture of those two problems, then use those as appropriate
2020-12-13T15:12:03Z nwoob: ok
2020-12-13T15:12:14Z phoe: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf PDF page 152
2020-12-13T15:12:45Z phoe: I see the reasoning there; it seems to prefer the single-assignment approach in general
2020-12-13T15:12:58Z phoe: but then again, this makes e.g. iteration very hard to perform.
2020-12-13T15:13:07Z nwoob: I think, I have a long way to go before I know what approach is better for this problem
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2020-12-13T15:47:09Z kenran: What would be the best way to call low-level functions from glibc using SBCL? I found sb-posix, but it doesn't seem to have the calls I need (select, posix_openpt, ...).
2020-12-13T15:47:18Z kenran: I also stumbled over CFFI, is that the way to go?
2020-12-13T15:48:13Z phoe: CFFI
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2020-12-13T15:52:13Z phadthai: there was an equivalent of select in the sb sockets or such lib also
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2020-12-13T15:57:11Z phadthai: ah it was iolib I think
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2020-12-13T16:25:03Z jackdaniel: iolib are cffi bindings
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2020-12-13T16:25:13Z jackdaniel: while serve-event is built on top of select (at least  on unix)
2020-12-13T16:25:47Z jackdaniel: serve-event extension is also available in ecl contribs (a different implementation of the same [or then-the-same] protocol)
2020-12-13T16:26:36Z jackdaniel: iolib relies on libfixposix, so remember to install it first (libfixposix unifies some differences across different posix implementations)
2020-12-13T16:26:39Z jackdaniel: kenran: ^
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2020-12-13T17:23:57Z kenran: jackdaniel: thanks! I first have to figure out how to actually work with a common lisp project :D but I've gotten cffi to work at least, so the rest will probably be similar.
2020-12-13T17:24:51Z kenran: I'm trying to write a simple terminal emulator for educational purposes, so I'll need some low-level POSIX calls.
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2020-12-13T17:30:17Z jackdaniel: good luck, if you blog aboit it please let us know
2020-12-13T17:30:25Z jackdaniel: about*
2020-12-13T17:32:40Z aeth: autowrapping can be done with autowrap [1] or claw [2] or you can do manual wrapping with CFFI, which is usually faster (especially faster than autowrap, which adds runtime indirection on the pointers that the fork, claw, removes because it's supposed to enable finalizers, which are... well, hard to get right), but obviously takes more time to write. [1] https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap/ [2] https://github.com/borodust/claw
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2020-12-13T17:35:14Z aeth: Generally, manually wrapped stuff has two layers: a direct low-level wrapping, and an attempt to make it a bit more idiomatic. e.g. cl-opengl has a %gl package (where %foo means low level or internal, like Python's _foo). The high level one will probably do conversions and wrap the errors. Doing the conversions each time is less efficient than doing it manually, though.
2020-12-13T17:36:16Z aeth: If a C API uses arrays, you might have to use a library like static-vectors. It's better than the alternatives I know of because it creates "bilingual" arrays. The catch is that you have to free them. https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors/
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2020-12-13T17:39:14Z aeth: In general, the issue with interfacing with C stuff is having to remember to free them. This generally means something like this, except sometimes the LET binding actually creates it, too, instead of just binding it: (defmacro with-foo ((foo) &body body) (let ((gensym (gensym))) `(let ((,gensym ,foo)) (unwind-protect (progn ,@body) (free-foo ,gensym)))))
2020-12-13T17:40:05Z phoe: you could take a look at https://github.com/phoe/cl-lzma/blob/master/cl-lzma.lisp - I wrote this code some time ago and I think that it shows the basics of how to use static-vectors, as well as CFFI (with little bits of cl-autowrap)
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2020-12-13T17:43:08Z _death: static-vectors uses remf on &rest lists :/
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2020-12-13T17:43:58Z aeth: static-vectors has various issues. For instance, it seems to destroy type inference in SBCL, so you're forced to declare for efficient code if you use it in the same function where you create it (although I usually pass them in and thus have to use declarations anyway). I think it has a mistake in its inlining or something.
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2020-12-13T17:45:10Z aeth: someone definitely needs to go through its source
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2020-12-13T17:45:53Z phoe: _death: gasp
2020-12-13T17:46:12Z phoe: file an issue!
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2020-12-13T17:46:39Z _death: I don't file issues.. maybe pull requests
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2020-12-13T17:50:10Z puchacz: phoe, about abcl and postmodern - I think ABCL handles unicode ok, I was even checking length of a string that is not from basic multilingual plane, and it answered correctly (unlike Java).
2020-12-13T17:50:29Z phoe: huh. Completely no idea then.
2020-12-13T17:50:40Z phoe: Oh! WRITE-BYTE!
2020-12-13T17:51:07Z phoe: Yes, WRITE-BYTE on a stream of (unsigned-byte 8)s requires to receive an (unsigned-byte 8).
2020-12-13T17:51:35Z phoe: This means that you need to convert this character into multiple bytes. Perhaps via babel.
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2020-12-13T17:52:02Z puchacz: I will check how it works for other implementations
2020-12-13T17:52:32Z puchacz: I just checked now on ABCL 1.7.1 an ancient egiptian hieroglyph, and it works correctly
2020-12-13T17:52:35Z puchacz: (length (format nil "~a" (code-char 13000))) ---> 1
2020-12-13T17:52:38Z puchacz: Java would say 2
2020-12-13T17:52:47Z phoe: no
2020-12-13T17:52:52Z phoe: this is a string of one character
2020-12-13T17:52:54Z phoe: so its length is 1
2020-12-13T17:53:01Z phoe: that's consistent with the CL standard
2020-12-13T17:53:20Z puchacz: ABCL is right, I agree, Java would have said 2 (wrong)
2020-12-13T17:54:40Z puchacz: Java has hardwired concept of character being 16 bits exactly, which is not correct for many unicode characters, in this example Java would have been wrong, ABCL is right
2020-12-13T17:56:02Z puchacz: I am not sure how to check type details of TWO-WAY-STREAM....
2020-12-13T17:56:05Z puchacz: sly is saying
2020-12-13T17:56:21Z puchacz: #<SYSTEM::SOCKET-STREAM {3F289259}>--------------------The object is of type SOCKET-STREAM.class: #<STRUCTURE-CLASS TWO-WAY-STREAM {10FF64C2}>
2020-12-13T17:58:08Z phoe: hmmmmmmm...
2020-12-13T17:58:36Z puchacz: describe is saying the same
2020-12-13T17:58:38Z phoe: I don't know how to debug that one at the moment
2020-12-13T17:58:43Z puchacz: no problem :)
2020-12-13T17:58:49Z borodust: avoid :claw for autowrapping - that's a secret tool
2020-12-13T17:59:07Z puchacz: I have just been playing with ABCL
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2020-12-13T17:59:22Z Xach: a Forbidden Tool!
2020-12-13T17:59:28Z borodust: YES
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2020-12-13T17:59:45Z Xach added a Forbidden Parameter to vecto to support his GIF goofabouts - https://github.com/xach/vecto/commit/312dea5860c04739d872e21ee9fdb2c759ac5f45
2020-12-13T17:59:59Z slyrus: howdy everyone
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2020-12-13T18:00:39Z puchacz: thanks phoe
2020-12-13T18:00:51Z borodust: only serious, but :claw has no docs and it's far from simple - spare fellow lispers ;p
2020-12-13T18:01:00Z Xach: hi slyrus
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2020-12-13T18:14:21Z hendursaga: jackdaniel: Does ECL only compile to C, or can it be configured for assembly, too?
2020-12-13T18:14:45Z aeth: "~A has no docs" is a fairly common situation in the ecosystem.
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2020-12-13T18:48:21Z jackdaniel: hendursaga: to C, alternatively to a bytecode - there is no assembly compliler backend
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2020-12-13T20:21:02Z srandon111: guys what are use cases for writing DSLs ?
2020-12-13T20:22:10Z ck_: srandon111: on this topic, I can recommend an excellent video
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2020-12-13T20:22:55Z ck_: srandon111: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FlHq_iiDW0
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2020-12-13T20:30:44Z Xach: hey, i recognize that channel
2020-12-13T20:33:41Z ck_: Xach: it's pretty good you should check it out
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2020-12-13T20:52:54Z borodust: aeth: true, but :claw is being slightly completely revamped to include C++ support (literally, no cl-autowrap code left there, no c2ffi too) and it's dangerous to use it
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2020-12-13T20:53:12Z borodust: API won't change much, but still gonna transform a bit to incorporate some C++ stuff
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2020-12-13T20:56:55Z borodust: that's what happens if you try to run :claw xD
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2020-12-13T20:57:43Z kenran: what in cffi do I use to access C constants like O_RDWR? how do I reference them?
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2020-12-13T20:58:18Z phoe: you usually redefine them in CL because they are not a part of C
2020-12-13T20:58:23Z phoe: they're a part of the C preprocessor
2020-12-13T20:59:02Z phoe: so there is nothing to refer to once the code is preprocessed or compiled.
2020-12-13T20:59:56Z kenran: does that mean I'd just find out what value they have by looking at the C code then writa definition
2020-12-13T21:00:54Z phoe: yes; I don't know if the CFFI groveller is capable of auto-defining those. probably it is, I just never used it.
2020-12-13T21:01:11Z phoe: but a lot of people just redefine all the constants in Lisp code.
2020-12-13T21:01:26Z no-defun-allowed: I think you can. Let me check...
2020-12-13T21:02:13Z no-defun-allowed: See constant in https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Groveller-Syntax.html
2020-12-13T21:03:27Z phoe: what are the origins of the name "groveller", anyway? is it used outside Lisp as well?
2020-12-13T21:03:45Z phoe: s/ll/l/
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2020-12-13T21:05:04Z no-defun-allowed: grovel, verb: to humble oneself or act in an abject manner, as in great fear or utter servility.
2020-12-13T21:05:21Z phoe: yes, I understand the meaning, but how does it refer to parsing C code?
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2020-12-13T21:06:28Z no-defun-allowed: One must imagine the groveller happy.
2020-12-13T21:06:38Z phoe: ...
2020-12-13T21:06:45Z phoe: This answer is both satisfying and unsatisfying
2020-12-13T21:06:53Z phoe: I guess this is enough for now
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2020-12-13T21:11:10Z ane: is there any scenario where doing (defvar *x*) (setf (documentation '*x* 'variable) "foo") is more appropriate than (defvar *x* nil "Foo") ?
2020-12-13T21:11:33Z ane: i.e. using setf documentation over defvar
2020-12-13T21:11:44Z no-defun-allowed: In the first example, *X* will be unbound. In the second, it will be bound to NIL. These are different.
2020-12-13T21:11:46Z phoe: yes, when you want the symbol to remain unbound
2020-12-13T21:12:00Z kenran: phoe: no-defun-allowed: thanks!
2020-12-13T21:12:07Z the-smug-one: Also when you want to separate your docstrings from your variable declaration
2020-12-13T21:12:21Z phoe: evaluating *x* in the first case will signal an error; evaluating *x* in the second case will return NIL.
2020-12-13T21:12:49Z ane: right, ok
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2020-12-13T21:49:36Z Xach: phoe: i don't know the original intent, but i have thought of "groveling around" as something a creater might do to search for something. and interpreted it in lisp to mean to look through the C system for things.
2020-12-13T21:49:43Z Xach: creater? creature.
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2020-12-13T21:50:10Z Xach: "grovel" being roughly "search"
2020-12-13T21:50:16Z Nilby: I think it's called the groveler because it's humiliating for Lisp to have to beg C code for something. I refuse to have my code grovel at the feet of some C preprocessor macros.
2020-12-13T21:51:17Z Nilby: It's also that double meaning and perhaps a bit of acknowledgment of the indignity.
2020-12-13T21:57:34Z phoe: I can dig this explanation
2020-12-13T21:57:42Z badcfe: are? the value of the expression 0 the same as of the expression '0
2020-12-13T21:58:34Z phoe: badcfe: yes, because '0 evaluates to 0 and 0 evaluates to 0
2020-12-13T21:58:52Z badcfe: phoe: thanks!
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2020-12-13T21:59:02Z phoe: badcfe: do you know how quoting works?
2020-12-13T21:59:12Z phoe: this trick only works because 0 is a so-called self-evaluating object
2020-12-13T21:59:26Z phoe: doing this trick with x and 'x won't work!
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2020-12-13T22:02:36Z badcfe: phoe: i think the quote is to not evaluate.  but if you evaluate a literal integer, then the result is exactly itself, the very same thing, is that correct?
2020-12-13T22:03:27Z phoe: yes
2020-12-13T22:03:46Z phoe: this doesn't work with lists and this doesn't work with symbols, because they don't self-evaluate in the general case
2020-12-13T22:04:42Z badcfe: a list would evaluate to i.e a function form, right?  unless first symbol is special or a macro.
2020-12-13T22:05:00Z badcfe: s/a function form/function application/
2020-12-13T22:06:27Z phoe: yes
2020-12-13T22:06:41Z phoe: and symbols generally evaluate to their values in the current environment.
2020-12-13T22:06:55Z phoe: unless they're constants, at which point the above still holds
2020-12-13T22:07:17Z phoe: unless they're symbol macros, at which point the above doesn't really hold - the symbol macro is expanded in place and that gets evaluated again.
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2020-12-13T23:47:59Z thmprover: Is there some way to determine how many bits the significand has for a double?
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2020-12-13T23:50:32Z Alfr_: thmprover, (float-precision 1d0)
2020-12-13T23:51:52Z thmprover: Awesome, thanks :)
2020-12-13T23:54:57Z Alfr_: thmprover, I don't think there are other implementations, but you should also check that float-radix is 2. The standard allows for other bases.
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2020-12-13T23:56:24Z thmprover: Oh man, that's a good catch, thanks
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2020-12-14T00:17:57Z Bike: if you find a trinary float implementation, do share
2020-12-14T00:18:41Z no-defun-allowed stares in ENIAC
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2020-12-14T00:56:09Z nij: Is it possible to interfere a local variable within a loop?
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2020-12-14T00:56:38Z defunkydrummer: nij: what's interfere?
2020-12-14T00:56:58Z defunkydrummer: nij: you can use local variables of the same scope where the loop is
2020-12-14T00:57:15Z nij: (let ((..)) (loop blah blah))?
2020-12-14T00:57:38Z defunkydrummer: nij yes those vars are available and can be SETF as well
2020-12-14T00:58:09Z nij: (let ((belief 'nil)) (loop (progn (live-on) (dream-on))))
2020-12-14T00:58:38Z nij: Yeah.. how to SETF BELIEF, after the loop has begun?
2020-12-14T00:59:07Z defunkydrummer: nij: don't quote NIl
2020-12-14T00:59:15Z defunkydrummer: nij: nil is a value
2020-12-14T00:59:26Z nij: oh oh yes!! sorry..
2020-12-14T00:59:28Z no-defun-allowed: You can still set it..
2020-12-14T00:59:32Z nij: (let ((belief nil)) (loop (progn (live-on) (dream-on))))
2020-12-14T00:59:41Z defunkydrummer: nij: yes, you just set it
2020-12-14T00:59:50Z no-defun-allowed: Loosely, nil = boolean, 'nil = the symbol NIL, '() = empty list, () = weird
2020-12-14T01:00:09Z defunkydrummer: (let ((donations 1)) (loop repeat do (incf donations)))
2020-12-14T01:00:42Z nij: How to alter BELIEF after the loop has begun?
2020-12-14T01:01:06Z no-defun-allowed: (let ((belief ...)) (loop ... (setf belief ...)))
2020-12-14T01:01:38Z defunkydrummer: nij: sorry if my example wasn't so good. INCF also alters the value of a variable.
2020-12-14T01:01:40Z no-defun-allowed: Unless you explicitly do so, no control flow construct interferes with how you modify variable bindings.
2020-12-14T01:01:43Z nij: Oh! I cannot even detach the loop......
2020-12-14T01:02:04Z nij: I was thinking of letting a loop running in a background, and alter BELIEF from the outside.
2020-12-14T01:02:33Z nij: So.. how to even run a detachable loop? Is it possible in cl?
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2020-12-14T01:03:48Z no-defun-allowed: You could create a thread to do that, and the function will close over any* variables referenced. (*Excluding special variables, which includes DEFVAR-ed and DEFPARAMETER-ed variables. Bind them again.)
2020-12-14T01:04:35Z no-defun-allowed: But if you do that, you probably would have to deal with concurrent access, and either make sure to use a mutex while reading and writing, or use compare-and-swap to set BELIEF from another thread (and read as normal).
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2020-12-14T01:05:45Z nij: Uh it sounds very advanced. Lemme search the keywords.
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2020-12-14T01:07:18Z no-defun-allowed: Threads are annoying, yes. What I did was to make a "locked box" which gives a thread exclusive access to some variable.
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2020-12-14T01:08:57Z no-defun-allowed: It looks something like https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/cl-decentralise2/-/blob/master/Code/Utilities/thread-box.lisp; you would write (let ((belief (box nil))) (bt:make-thread (lambda () ... use (box-value belief))) belief)
2020-12-14T01:09:20Z nij: I'm kicked out.. might have missed message.
2020-12-14T01:09:37Z no-defun-allowed: Then another thread could use (setf (box-value belief) ...) or (with-unlocked-box (value belief) ... use value ...) to modify the value.
2020-12-14T01:09:41Z nij: But the missing concept of mine was indeed "thread". I will read more on that and ask questions.
2020-12-14T01:09:42Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think you missed anything.
2020-12-14T01:10:23Z no-defun-allowed: A thread runs some action, and starting a thread allows you to run multiple actions concurrently.
2020-12-14T01:10:35Z nij: Indeed.
2020-12-14T01:10:48Z nij: I thought a life is a loop. But it's actually a thread.
2020-12-14T01:11:31Z thmprover: Because it terminates/
2020-12-14T01:11:47Z thmprover: Bad-um bum
2020-12-14T01:11:58Z nij: lolllolll
2020-12-14T01:11:59Z no-defun-allowed: However, when you share data between threads, you have to make sure they don't trample over each other. There are a few techniques for doing that, and using locks is one of them.
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2020-12-14T01:17:10Z defunkydrummer: nij: another alternative is to use channels. See the ChanL library.
2020-12-14T01:17:21Z nij: Nice! Will learn!
2020-12-14T01:17:52Z defunkydrummer: nij: When you use channels, you don't share variables; you send information (or messages, or events) through a channel to the other thread
2020-12-14T01:18:35Z nij: This seems to be a better way.
2020-12-14T01:18:37Z defunkydrummer: https://github.com/zkat/chanl
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2020-12-14T01:19:05Z defunkydrummer: nij: there's no "better" way except for the way that is more suitable to your problem
2020-12-14T01:19:25Z defunkydrummer: another way is software transactional memory. See the STMX library
2020-12-14T01:19:37Z nij: I feel like sharing variables is very dangerous.
2020-12-14T01:19:48Z defunkydrummer: i haven't used stmx yet
2020-12-14T01:20:00Z defunkydrummer: nij: not if only one thread acceses it at a given time
2020-12-14T01:20:36Z nij: What happens when it's accessed by multiple instances?!
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2020-12-14T01:21:59Z no-defun-allowed: Multiple reads are fine, but multiple writes and one writer with non-zero readers are bad.
2020-12-14T01:22:56Z no-defun-allowed: Another option is to use atomics and have the writer repeatedly compare-and-swap in the new value. It is admittedly pretty low-level; you might use that to implement mutexes (and then channels), or you might just use them straight.
2020-12-14T01:23:47Z nij: I feel the most comfortable with "signal sending".. will check out chanl :)
2020-12-14T01:26:00Z defunkydrummer: i tbink it's easy to learn
2020-12-14T01:26:22Z defunkydrummer: there's some tutorial out there i think; you can google it
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2020-12-14T01:28:01Z nij: thanks :D
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2020-12-14T02:46:32Z thmprover: Out of curiosity, has anyone really gotten into literate programming here?
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2020-12-14T03:05:54Z oni-on-ion: thmprover, i've tried it a little. but i am more of an engineer than a scholar
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2020-12-14T03:12:23Z thmprover: oni-on-ion: So you probably don't have any pointers about the best way to organize the presentation of material in a Cweb program?
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2020-12-14T03:19:56Z thmprover: Like, I'm trying it out now, and I'm getting to the point where I'm writing chunks of code on quarter-slips of paper, so I can see what's easier to read (as a reader, rather than as a programmer).
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2020-12-14T03:49:30Z badcfe: with two operands, IF and AND are equivalent right?
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2020-12-14T03:59:37Z aeth: iirc (if c a b) is (or (and c a) b)
2020-12-14T03:59:50Z aeth: so if b's implicitly nil that seems to be the case
2020-12-14T04:00:07Z lotuseater: badcfe: did you already recognize AND & OR are macros? :)
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2020-12-14T04:00:39Z lotuseater: and I'll bet in a few minutes beach appears with a good morning ^^
2020-12-14T04:00:57Z ck_: how many parentheses are you betting
2020-12-14T04:01:16Z lotuseater: all of them?
2020-12-14T04:02:13Z ck_: all right, keep your riches! :) have a good monday too.
2020-12-14T04:02:35Z lotuseater: I should sleep first :D you too
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2020-12-14T04:04:10Z badcfe: lotuseater: yes .. so they wont evaluate that second operand iff first is nil
2020-12-14T04:04:39Z badcfe: alright, so with two operands they're equivalent in all ways, thanks
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2020-12-14T04:05:50Z lotuseater: yeah can be seen as some kind of lazy evaluation ^^
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2020-12-14T04:08:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-14T04:10:09Z lotuseater: morning beach :)
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2020-12-14T04:10:34Z lotuseater: i learned a word today. do you know what banana-software is?
2020-12-14T04:13:32Z badcfe: parentheses can look like bananas, maybe?
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2020-12-14T04:13:41Z sgibber2018: scheme
2020-12-14T04:13:48Z lotuseater: hehe yes that could be
2020-12-14T04:14:06Z lotuseater: No, it's a word for software that matures with customer
2020-12-14T04:14:10Z sgibber2018: whoops sorry didn't mean to type "scheme" in there. Hit enter on accident
2020-12-14T04:14:57Z sgibber2018: Or wrong window rather
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2020-12-14T04:15:33Z lotuseater: ah no problem, i did it some days myself, german sentence in an english speaking channel
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2020-12-14T04:20:23Z ck_: lotuseater: and did you read it or not?
2020-12-14T04:22:01Z lotuseater: ehm what do you mean exactly? I'm a bit confused
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2020-12-14T04:24:27Z ck_: if I remember correctly the sentence you just referenced read something like "could read the Weltenalmanach"
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2020-12-14T04:26:02Z lotuseater: no i didn't mean anything like that
2020-12-14T04:26:20Z lotuseater: have so many books to read ._.
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2020-12-14T04:28:22Z ck_: Kompendium, not Almanach, I misremembered.  But I know the feeling
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2020-12-14T04:40:04Z badcfe: if i insist on not using the comma-at notation, and thus have (defmacro lm (&rest x) (cons 'list x)), but i want the operands to not get evaluated, can i accomplish this?
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2020-12-14T04:40:38Z beach: badcfe: There is nothing special with ,@.
2020-12-14T04:41:02Z beach: badcfe: ` is just a reader macro that turns the expression into APPEND, etc.
2020-12-14T04:41:18Z beach: badcfe: So you can always express the same thing without ,@.
2020-12-14T04:41:43Z beach: badcfe: The main difference being that if you don't use ` and , then your code will be fairly hard to read.
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2020-12-14T04:42:06Z lotuseater: and even harder to get right :)
2020-12-14T04:42:09Z badcfe: beach: when i evaluate a form with the above macro, the operands get evaluated, but as a newb i dont know how to prevent that, to mimick the comma-at
2020-12-14T04:42:16Z beach: lotuseater: Indeed.
2020-12-14T04:42:25Z badcfe: beach: so the context is that i am a newb fiddling and exploring
2020-12-14T04:42:42Z beach: badcfe: You can't mimic ,@ if you are inside `
2020-12-14T04:42:58Z badcfe: beach: you see i didn
2020-12-14T04:43:04Z badcfe: t enter the `
2020-12-14T04:44:03Z beach: So tell us what expression with ` and , works and we can tell you the equivalent expression without them.
2020-12-14T04:44:48Z lotuseater: badcfe: but imagine when writing macros that write macros
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2020-12-14T04:45:06Z badcfe: (defmacro listm (&rest x) `(list ,@x))
2020-12-14T04:45:29Z beach: Let's see...
2020-12-14T04:45:50Z beach: (append '(list) x) maybe.
2020-12-14T04:45:55Z beach: Something like that.
2020-12-14T04:46:31Z badcfe: but x would be evaluated wouldnt it
2020-12-14T04:46:47Z beach: It would be in the first case too.
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2020-12-14T04:47:21Z badcfe: the behavior of the macro i wrote above using back-tick, is to not evaluate it
2020-12-14T04:47:36Z beach: ?
2020-12-14T04:47:51Z beach: Anything after , is evaluated.  That's the idea.
2020-12-14T04:47:58Z badcfe: i'm sorry.  stand by.
2020-12-14T04:48:11Z beach: Try typing `(hello ,*standard-output*) to the REPL.
2020-12-14T04:48:39Z lotuseater: badcfe: imagine using , as having a little bit of runtime in macroexpansion
2020-12-14T04:49:07Z badcfe: here is the one with the behavior i want
2020-12-14T04:49:07Z badcfe: (defmacro listm (&rest x) `(list ',@x))
2020-12-14T04:49:44Z beach: That's a bit trickier.
2020-12-14T04:50:40Z beach: (append '(list) (list 'quote x)) something like that.
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2020-12-14T04:52:10Z beach: Let me verify...
2020-12-14T04:52:25Z badcfe: seems to werk.  i am mentally chewing on it now
2020-12-14T04:52:35Z badcfe: my computer was happy with it
2020-12-14T04:52:42Z beach: OK, good.
2020-12-14T04:54:30Z beach: I think rather (append '(list) (append '(quote) x))
2020-12-14T04:54:34Z beach: But you get the idea.
2020-12-14T04:55:39Z beach: You can try doing (defparameter *x* '(a b c)) and then try the two with *x* replacing x.  No need for a macro.  Just try it at the REPL.
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2020-12-14T04:56:56Z badcfe: good technique.  thanks
2020-12-14T04:57:17Z beach: (append '(list) (list (append '(quote) x))) is the best I can do.
2020-12-14T04:58:03Z beach: As you can see, it is always possible, but the code is unreadable.  And as lotuseater pointed out, incredibly hard to write as well.
2020-12-14T04:58:21Z beach: ... which is of course why they invented the backquote reader macro.
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2020-12-14T05:02:58Z badcfe: beach: i think the initial '(list) should go away
2020-12-14T05:03:10Z badcfe: i tried the following which seems to do it
2020-12-14T05:03:12Z badcfe: (defmacro lm (&rest x) (list 'quote x))
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2020-12-14T05:07:45Z beach: I don't think that is the same as your original form.
2020-12-14T05:07:50Z beach: In fact I am sure it is not.
2020-12-14T05:08:05Z beach: Again, try the 2 (or 3) at the REPL.
2020-12-14T05:08:32Z beach: In your original form, the top-level result is (list ...).
2020-12-14T05:08:46Z beach: But in the latest one, there is no LIST.
2020-12-14T05:10:11Z badcfe: yes i am sorry in my confusion i have shown forms that may not be what i targetted, which is a macro that lists its operands unevaluated, i.e (m 1 (+ 1 1)) gives (1 (+ 1 1)) when expanded and evaluated
2020-12-14T05:10:46Z beach: Again, the equivalence is independent of whether it is a macro or not.
2020-12-14T05:10:54Z lotuseater: beach: can you tell me in short the technical differences between &BODY and &REST? i recognize &REST more used on functions and &BODY in macros
2020-12-14T05:11:05Z beach: And I can't guess your intentions.  I can only follow what you tell me.
2020-12-14T05:11:21Z beach: lotuseater: That's the only difference.
2020-12-14T05:11:41Z beach: Is &REST even allowed in a macro lambda list?  Let me check...
2020-12-14T05:12:01Z beach: Yes it is.
2020-12-14T05:12:04Z lotuseater: ha ok :) but of course in eg AND &REST is used for it has no "body"
2020-12-14T05:12:26Z beach: Ah but &BODY is not allowed in ordinary lambda lists.
2020-12-14T05:12:53Z beach: They have different "moral" meaning.
2020-12-14T05:13:01Z beach: AND does not have a "body".
2020-12-14T05:13:09Z beach: Only an arbitrary number of arguments.
2020-12-14T05:13:37Z beach: Plus, how AND is implemented is not specified in the standard.
2020-12-14T05:13:43Z lotuseater: yes i remember. and &WHOLE just in macros? i did get it when experimenting with compiler macros
2020-12-14T05:14:00Z lotuseater: yes i mean that, did just express it weird
2020-12-14T05:14:09Z beach: clhs 3.4
2020-12-14T05:14:09Z specbot: Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_d.htm
2020-12-14T05:14:22Z lotuseater: and how is it in SICL?
2020-12-14T05:14:26Z badcfe: i would like to write (defmacro lm (&rest x) (list 'quote x)) using the conventional syntax for macros having back-tick and comma-at
2020-12-14T05:14:39Z beach: lotuseater: Making great progress lately.  Thanks.
2020-12-14T05:15:14Z beach: badcfe: Why do you insist on the macro context.
2020-12-14T05:15:16Z beach: ?
2020-12-14T05:15:27Z lotuseater: good, but the question was in connection with how you implement AND
2020-12-14T05:15:43Z badcfe: beach: it
2020-12-14T05:15:47Z beach: lotuseater: Oh, I don't remember.  Let me check...
2020-12-14T05:16:00Z beach: badcfe: (list 'quote x) is likely ',x
2020-12-14T05:16:01Z badcfe: s my way of learning.  i found a wall and therefore i hit my head against it
2020-12-14T05:17:03Z badcfe: or rather, your head against it.  sorry about that
2020-12-14T05:17:37Z badcfe: beach: yes, thats it.  thank you.  so skipping the @ will leave it a list
2020-12-14T05:19:13Z beach: lotuseater: Look in Code/Conditionals/support.lisp for AND-EXPANDER.
2020-12-14T05:19:23Z lotuseater: ok thx
2020-12-14T05:19:37Z beach: lotuseater: I am currently separating the macro itself from its expander function, but that will likely change.
2020-12-14T05:20:01Z beach: I did that so that the expander function could be executed by the host during bootstrapping, which is faster.
2020-12-14T05:20:37Z beach: But now I have a bootstrapping technique for which the difference in performance won't matter much, so I will likely stick the expander code in the macro again.
2020-12-14T05:22:49Z lotuseater: i see, good idea
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2020-12-14T05:22:59Z beach: Thanks.
2020-12-14T05:23:21Z lotuseater: but i still must get it right to boot SICL :/
2020-12-14T05:23:59Z lotuseater: that's just my general incompetence
2020-12-14T05:24:20Z beach: It is broken most of the time.  But currently, you should be able to do (asdf:load-system '#:sicl-boot) then (in-package #:sicl-boot) and then (boot).
2020-12-14T05:24:32Z lotuseater: yay
2020-12-14T05:24:42Z beach: The you can do (repl *e5*) and you have a repl, but one that is very brittle.
2020-12-14T05:25:04Z beach: And the printer is not yet there, so many values will just show up as <HEADER>.
2020-12-14T05:25:09Z lotuseater: no problem, it's a big project
2020-12-14T05:25:09Z semz: Okay, so according to clhs 4.3.6, updates to an instance of a redefined class may happen as late as when one of its slots is accessed. Let's assume the implementation does that and the class is redefined twice. Assume also that the relevant methods on update-instance-for-redefined-class are different during the two redefinitions.
2020-12-14T05:25:41Z semz: It's possible that there will be instances that only get to see the second definition of update-instance-for-redefined-class, right?
2020-12-14T05:36:51Z badcfe: at last.  to conclude, i find the following seems equivalent
2020-12-14T05:36:51Z badcfe: (defmacro lm (&rest x) (list 'quote x))
2020-12-14T05:36:56Z badcfe: (defmacro ln (&rest x) `(list ',x))
2020-12-14T05:36:59Z beach: lotuseater: I have had a lot of help with several modules such as  Cleavir (compiler framework), Clostrum (global environments), Trucler (lexical environments), Eclector (reader), Incless (printer), and probably several that I forgot.
2020-12-14T05:38:09Z beach: badcfe: They are not.
2020-12-14T05:38:23Z beach: badcfe: As a simple experiment at the REPL will show.
2020-12-14T05:39:18Z beach: The first one expands to '<the-value-of-x> and the second one to (list '<the-value-of-x>).
2020-12-14T05:40:03Z badcfe: oh i see, ln has one more parenthesis, there.  not a trained eye here
2020-12-14T05:40:23Z beach: badcfe: Look, anything inside ` but not inside , will appear in the result, so the LIST symbol will be in the result of the second one.
2020-12-14T05:41:24Z beach: badcfe: I am not sure why you refuse to try this out at the REPL.
2020-12-14T05:42:46Z badcfe: beach: i am trying it, and i missed that extra parenthesis
2020-12-14T05:43:46Z badcfe: beach: i have the delusion that just by removing something from ln i will peal off that wrapping list there, but i seem too unfamiliar with this to be able to do it yet
2020-12-14T05:43:48Z beach: badcfe: It is more than an extra parenthesis.  The symbol LIST will appear in one expansion and not in the other.
2020-12-14T05:44:20Z badcfe: beach: no, i dont see the symbol LIST in neither
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2020-12-14T05:45:08Z badcfe: * (ln 1 (+ 1 1))
2020-12-14T05:45:08Z badcfe: ((1 (+ 1 1)))
2020-12-14T05:45:08Z badcfe: * (lm 1 (+ 1 1))
2020-12-14T05:45:08Z badcfe: (1 (+ 1 1))
2020-12-14T05:45:10Z beach: badcfe: That's because you typed a form using the macro as opposed to macroexpanding it, or trying it out at the REPL as I have suggested several times.
2020-12-14T05:45:37Z White_Flame: `(list ,@(mapcar (lambda (y) `(quote y)) x) :-P
2020-12-14T05:45:41Z beach: badcfe: Evaluating a form with the macro as the operator means one more evaluation.
2020-12-14T05:46:06Z beach: badcfe: I am trying to teach you about the equivalence between a form with ` and one without.
2020-12-14T05:47:01Z beach: badcfe: And as I have also suggested several times, the backquote reader macro is independent of macros.
2020-12-14T05:47:06Z badcfe: beach: yes i get the macro expansion part, and am looking at above ln and lm and imagining i can easily make ln skip that extra wraping, in what i pasted from my repl above
2020-12-14T05:47:22Z beach: Whatever.
2020-12-14T05:48:00Z badcfe: beach: i see.  yes, i can try out the parts in this, one by one
2020-12-14T05:50:49Z lotuseater: beach: i respect the good modularity of SICL
2020-12-14T05:50:55Z beach: badcfe: If you continue thinking in terms of parentheses, it will all be magic to you.  I suggest you start thinking in terms of data structures in the form of (nested) lists.
2020-12-14T05:51:02Z beach: lotuseater: Thanks.
2020-12-14T05:51:38Z lotuseater: but seems tricky not to have circular dependencies between the projects :)
2020-12-14T05:51:48Z beach: lotuseater: Over time, we have learned a lot about how to write implementation-independent modules.
2020-12-14T05:51:56Z lotuseater: i saw once your talk about ANSI LOOP on YT
2020-12-14T05:52:07Z lotuseater: sounds good
2020-12-14T05:52:21Z beach: lotuseater: SICL is full of circular dependencies.
2020-12-14T05:52:48Z beach: LOOP uses a lot of CLOS and so does FORMAT.  And CLOS definitely uses LOOP.
2020-12-14T05:52:58Z badcfe: beach: thanks for that guidance for me on how to look at this
2020-12-14T05:53:00Z badcfe: (defmacro ln (&rest x) `',x)
2020-12-14T05:53:02Z lotuseater: uii hm
2020-12-14T05:53:07Z beach: lotuseater: And CLOS is written using a lot of CLOS.
2020-12-14T05:53:14Z badcfe: this ones seems to do it tho
2020-12-14T05:53:15Z lotuseater: hehe
2020-12-14T05:53:33Z White_Flame: badcfe: the conversion of LM into backquote form would simply be `(quote ,x)
2020-12-14T05:53:46Z White_Flame: which of course is equivalent to `',x but IMO a bit more readable
2020-12-14T05:53:48Z beach: lotuseater: For instance (defclass t () () (:metaclass built-in-class))
2020-12-14T05:54:33Z lotuseater: CLOS is so deep in CL it's difficult to program without it
2020-12-14T05:54:47Z beach: lotuseater: I found that my brain is too small to imagine a subset of Common Lisp that I am allowed to use for each module, so I am using the full language for every such module.
2020-12-14T05:54:57Z beach: lotuseater: Exactly.
2020-12-14T05:55:15Z lotuseater: yours too small?! o_O
2020-12-14T05:55:45Z beach: lotuseater: So instead I invented a bootstrapping technique that makes all those circular dependencies operational.
2020-12-14T05:56:25Z beach: lotuseater: I am not as smart as some people might think.  But I compensate by being thorough and take the time the task requires.
2020-12-14T05:57:07Z lotuseater: i think experience outweighs smartness sometimes
2020-12-14T05:57:17Z beach: That's what I am hoping. :)
2020-12-14T05:57:20Z lotuseater: oh yes i see
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2020-12-14T05:57:49Z beach: But it means VERY SLOW progress with SICL.
2020-12-14T05:58:16Z beach: I just finished rewriting the bootstrapping procedure a second time, so now it's version 3.
2020-12-14T05:58:35Z beach: Simply because I was unable to see the negative consequences of versions 1 and 2.
2020-12-14T05:58:37Z beach: Oh well.
2020-12-14T05:58:44Z lotuseater: nice. beside your other dozen of nontrivial and big projects
2020-12-14T05:58:57Z beach: Yeah. :(
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2020-12-14T06:15:25Z lotuseater: hehe i tried (defclass sorted-list (list) ()) but CLOS complains :)
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2020-12-14T06:16:27Z no-defun-allowed: clhs built-in-class
2020-12-14T06:16:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_built_.htm
2020-12-14T06:16:42Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, is LIST even a class?
2020-12-14T06:16:56Z no-defun-allowed: clhs list
2020-12-14T06:16:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm
2020-12-14T06:17:17Z no-defun-allowed: It is indeed a system class, so it cannot be subclassed.
2020-12-14T06:17:43Z lotuseater: oki :)
2020-12-14T06:18:22Z lotuseater: CONS and NULL are listed as subclasses
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2020-12-14T06:25:29Z entre-parenteses: beach: As someone trying to learn to write (and very intersted in specifically writing) well-designed software in Common Lisp, is this the SICL of which you speak?
2020-12-14T06:25:33Z entre-parenteses:  https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/sicl/SICL
2020-12-14T06:26:27Z entre-parenteses: Or should I look for it somewhere else?
2020-12-14T06:26:50Z beach: That looks old.
2020-12-14T06:27:17Z entre-parenteses: Yes, I see that it's about 9-10 years old.
2020-12-14T06:27:19Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL.
2020-12-14T06:27:33Z entre-parenteses: Ah, very much appreciated!
2020-12-14T06:27:52Z beach: Pleasure.
2020-12-14T06:28:44Z beach: lotuseater: (defclass sorted-list (list) ()) works in SICL. :)
2020-12-14T06:30:18Z lotuseater: cool!
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2020-12-14T06:31:55Z lotuseater: so i would do (make-instance 'sorted-list ...)?
2020-12-14T06:32:52Z beach: Yes.
2020-12-14T06:33:45Z beach: It doesn't have any slots, since LIST is a built-in class with no slots.
2020-12-14T06:34:02Z jackdaniel: I gather that such sorted list would not be built from conses, so it would violate the list class protocol ("for each elemnt of a list there is a /cons/.", and "type cons and null form  an exhaustive partition of the type list"
2020-12-14T06:34:19Z jackdaniel: or do I miss something?
2020-12-14T06:34:25Z beach: I am pretty sure it won't be useful.
2020-12-14T06:34:44Z lotuseater: okok
2020-12-14T06:35:08Z jackdaniel: right, I imagine that someone writes a method specialized on a list, and passing a sorted-list would indeed work in the dispatch mechanism, but not adhering to the list protocol will probably lead to a broken code
2020-12-14T06:35:51Z no-defun-allowed: Is allowing subclasses of built-in-class legal behaviour?
2020-12-14T06:36:14Z beach: no-defun-allowed: STANDARD-OBJECT is a subclass if T, so yes.
2020-12-14T06:36:15Z lotuseater: i just tried when thinking about dependent types
2020-12-14T06:36:50Z jackdaniel: "Attempting to use defclass to define subclasses of a built-in class signals an error of type error"
2020-12-14T06:36:54Z beach: no-defun-allowed: In SICL, all combinations are valid except a built-in class can not be a subclass of a standard class.
2020-12-14T06:37:00Z no-defun-allowed: I see.
2020-12-14T06:37:26Z beach: jackdaniel: Oh, so I have to disable that once the system is built.
2020-12-14T06:37:58Z jackdaniel: the page with built-in-class mandates some other errors too (i.e change-class is not allowed, redefinition etc)
2020-12-14T06:38:00Z beach: But clearly standard classes must be possible as subclasses of built-in classes.
2020-12-14T06:38:49Z jackdaniel: isn't a standard-class a subclass of class?
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2020-12-14T06:39:16Z beach: "a standard-class" is different from STANDARD-CLASS.
2020-12-14T06:39:23Z beach: The former is an instance of the latter.
2020-12-14T06:39:43Z beach: Like STANDARD-OBJECT is "a standard class" and it is a subclass of T.
2020-12-14T06:39:48Z jackdaniel: (ecl disables subclassing the built-in-class as the last step during compilation)
2020-12-14T06:39:59Z beach: Yes, that's what I plan to do too.
2020-12-14T06:40:01Z jackdaniel: you are right, my mistake
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2020-12-14T07:06:13Z beach: It would be silly not to use the possibility of using DEFCLASS to define subclasses of built-in classes during system bootstrapping, but sure, at the end, this feature has to be disabled in a conforming implementation.
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2020-12-14T07:09:02Z beach: Oh, but could LIST be a standard class?
2020-12-14T07:10:02Z beach: I mean, it isn't in SICL, because CONS is not a standard class.
2020-12-14T07:10:11Z beach: But could it be?
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2020-12-14T07:19:06Z jackdaniel: sure, system class is a class that *may* be of type but-in-class in a conforming implementation (...)
2020-12-14T07:19:16Z jackdaniel: it is not mandated
2020-12-14T07:19:29Z jackdaniel: built-in*
2020-12-14T07:19:33Z jackdaniel: not but :)
2020-12-14T07:19:47Z jackdaniel: it is in the glossary under "system class"
2020-12-14T07:20:08Z jackdaniel: beach: ^
2020-12-14T07:22:12Z phadthai: if I understand not allowing it as part of the standard was also so that the implementation of standard ones can be more efficient (and more limited) than clos permits, i.e. changing a struct would normally require all dependent code to be recompiled
2020-12-14T07:22:17Z beach: Yeah, I am just thinking that it probably could not be a subclass of STANDARD-OBJECT.
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2020-12-14T07:22:47Z beach: Because that would violate the class precedence list in the specification.
2020-12-14T07:23:51Z beach: phadthai: I assume by "not allowing it" you mean "not requiring it", yes?
2020-12-14T07:24:10Z jackdaniel: beach: what do you mean that it would violate the class precedence list?
2020-12-14T07:24:14Z phadthai: I'm not sure, sorry
2020-12-14T07:24:21Z beach: clhs list
2020-12-14T07:24:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm
2020-12-14T07:24:59Z jackdaniel: sequence is also a /system class/
2020-12-14T07:25:34Z beach: Yes, but is it allowed to stick in standard-object in the class precedence list?
2020-12-14T07:26:01Z beach: I know it is allowed to stick in implementation-specific classes, but specified ones?
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2020-12-14T07:26:18Z jackdaniel: I don't think that it is a problem, but I don't have anything to back that up
2020-12-14T07:26:31Z beach: It's an interesting question.
2020-12-14T07:26:51Z jackdaniel: phadthai: it is also to enable implementers to use some less obvious constructs for built-in-classes, i.e to directly map to underlying java class, or c++ class (if the runtime is shared)
2020-12-14T07:27:02Z jackdaniel: then you don't have control over said class (i.e its layout etc)
2020-12-14T07:27:43Z beach: phadthai: So the question is interesting in the context of the BOCL (BOotstrap Common Lisp) the goal of which is a system that is a simple and maintainable as possible, without many performance constraints at all.
2020-12-14T07:28:30Z beach: The fewer special cases requiring specific code, the better.
2020-12-14T07:29:15Z beach: the BOCL (...) idea, ...
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2020-12-14T07:31:18Z phadthai: yes I can certainly see the convenience
2020-12-14T07:31:44Z beach: In fact, it would be a fun project for someone to work on.
2020-12-14T07:31:59Z beach: It has to be written in C.
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2020-12-14T07:33:17Z phadthai: jackdaniel: thanks
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2020-12-14T07:33:25Z beach: Fun, because it has totally different goals from any Common Lisp implementation meant for production.
2020-12-14T07:34:22Z beach: I know it has been suggested that ECL kind of *is* a BOCL, but ECL has completely different goals, and performance is one of them.
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2020-12-14T07:34:52Z no-defun-allowed: I have never managed to build it myself, but what about CLISP?
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2020-12-14T07:37:23Z beach: It is also a Common Lisp implementation meant for "production" use, so there must be compromises in there for reasons of performance.  And  such compromises can make maintenance more complicated.
2020-12-14T07:38:38Z beach: Also, to take but one example, BOCL probably does not have to signal an error for the DEFCLASS example above.  As long as it has conforming behavior for conforming code, that should be enough.
2020-12-14T07:38:49Z no-defun-allowed: I see, but I have read that CLISP is/was considered the most portable implementation around. There is still a bytecode compiler which could be tossed out for BOCL.
2020-12-14T07:39:03Z beach: Sure.
2020-12-14T07:40:06Z beach: Bytecodes would probably be a requirement since native code would be way to complicated.
2020-12-14T07:40:11Z beach: too
2020-12-14T07:41:02Z no-defun-allowed: As opposed to directly interpreting Common Lisp code?
2020-12-14T07:41:53Z beach: Sure, that would be possible too.  Maybe even better.  I didn't think of that.
2020-12-14T07:41:54Z flip214: well, the CL forms could be scheduled like  forth as well...
2020-12-14T07:42:13Z beach: "scheduled?
2020-12-14T07:42:34Z beach: "scheduled"?  I mean.
2020-12-14T07:43:09Z no-defun-allowed: To be fair though, I would rather write a bytecode interpreter instead of a tree-walking interpreter in C. But then you have to write the bytecode compiler.
2020-12-14T07:43:37Z beach: Indeed.  Hard to tell a priori what gives the best code.
2020-12-14T07:45:09Z beach: Maybe the interpreter would not be too bad.
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2020-12-14T07:46:38Z no-defun-allowed: One thing I recall is that precise GC gets tedious without virtual machine registers placed somewhere convenient, but it wouldn't be a problem if you use Boehm (or decide that leaking is a feature of a BOCL).
2020-12-14T07:47:27Z beach: Yes, either Boehm or leaking is fine.  Though the latter may make it run out of memory, so I would go for Boehm.
2020-12-14T07:48:54Z flip214: beach: AFAIK the technical term for Forth code is "scheduling", yes.
2020-12-14T07:49:16Z beach: flip214: I see.  I guess I don't know what it means then,
2020-12-14T07:49:51Z no-defun-allowed: I recall some batch compilers would just allocate without freeing, because they wouldn't live very long and would generate significant garbage. That wouldn't work for Common Lisp, as we don't run one process per file, of course.
2020-12-14T07:50:21Z beach: Yeah, bootstrapping SICL would very likely run out of memory.
2020-12-14T07:51:52Z beach: So here is an example of what BOCL could do that no production Common Lisp system would: Function calls are all in the form of (APPLY <fn> <list of arguments>).
2020-12-14T07:51:54Z no-defun-allowed: You mean to tell me that I bought more primary memory to bootstrap HIR-to-CL SICL with a 10GB heap and without swapping, then you reduce the memory consumption of SICL, and now I can't even utilise it for BOCL? (Kidding...)
2020-12-14T07:52:41Z beach: Heh!
2020-12-14T07:52:55Z beach: I'll reimburse you if you like.
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2020-12-14T07:54:35Z no-defun-allowed: Well, that was one influence, but I got it for cheap, and I also needed it to run modded (read: extended with third-party mechanics) Minecraft on a real-time GC with a sufficiently large heap. So I don't actually mind at all.
2020-12-14T07:56:16Z phoe: good morning
2020-12-14T07:56:39Z beach: Hello phoe.
2020-12-14T07:56:54Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe.
2020-12-14T07:56:58Z phoe: hey hi
2020-12-14T07:59:40Z beach: no-defun-allowed: The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that a straight interpreter is the best solution.
2020-12-14T08:01:11Z White_Flame: implement a bootstrap CL in a Forth, as the native code required for forth is tiny
2020-12-14T08:01:54Z beach: That might be a possibility.  I'll let someone else think about that one, though.  I don't have much experience writing Forth.
2020-12-14T08:02:48Z phoe: hmmmm, isn't the ECL interpreter kinda forthesque?
2020-12-14T08:03:04Z phoe: or the bytecode compiler?
2020-12-14T08:03:16Z no-defun-allowed: It also convinced me that space-time tradeoffs exist in plenty of places, which was a point I failed to make in one writeup once.
2020-12-14T08:03:18Z phoe: I don't remember, plus I'm sleepy so I might be speaking nonsense
2020-12-14T08:03:28Z no-defun-allowed: Well, a lot of bytecode machines use stack machines.
2020-12-14T08:04:10Z no-defun-allowed: At least the Smalltalk, Self, Java, CLISP, CPython, and Netfarm machines are stack oriented for temporaries, but have some environment register too.
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2020-12-14T08:07:22Z no-defun-allowed: Notable exceptions are the Lua and Erlang (BEAM) machines, which use some number of registers.
2020-12-14T08:10:15Z beach: Maybe you are talking about something different now, but all such systems have performance as a significant goal, I would think.  That makes BOCL unique, and more fun, too. :)
2020-12-14T08:11:04Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps, but I meant to say that, if you look at it that way, "most" bytecodes look like Forth.
2020-12-14T08:11:15Z beach: Oh, I see.
2020-12-14T08:11:30Z no-defun-allowed: I still think they look more like the SECD machine <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SECD_machine> than a Forth call stack-data stack machine.
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2020-12-14T08:14:17Z beach: So, imagine writing only cons_car in C, and then write CAR by doing read_from_string("(defun car (x) (if (null x) x (cons-car x)))");
2020-12-14T08:14:40Z no-defun-allowed: But most performance-oriented implementations of those languages achieve their performance by abandoning the bytecode machine, and generating machine code instead. I see the point, though.
2020-12-14T08:14:41Z beach: ... and EVAL-ing that of course
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2020-12-14T08:15:28Z beach: ... or, I guess loading it from file.
2020-12-14T08:15:35Z srandon111: guys any resource on netowrk programming with common lisp?
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2020-12-14T08:16:18Z no-defun-allowed: You can use usocket for programming sockets.
2020-12-14T08:16:21Z beach: srandon111: Are you excluding the women here, or are you using "guys" as a gender-neutral term?
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2020-12-14T08:17:21Z srandon111: beach, damn of course i am using "guys" as a gender-neutral term, let's not start a discussion on this please...
2020-12-14T08:17:44Z phoe: what kind of network programming guide are you looking for?
2020-12-14T08:17:49Z no-defun-allowed: Would you ever consider dating a "guy"?
2020-12-14T08:17:51Z phoe: if it's just sockets, then usocket, as no-defun-allowed mentioned
2020-12-14T08:18:03Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, if i ever would be attracted to a guy why not
2020-12-14T08:18:13Z srandon111: thank no-defun-allowed
2020-12-14T08:18:18Z phoe gently nudges the dating topic aside
2020-12-14T08:18:26Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, fair enough.
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2020-12-14T08:18:38Z phoe: is it anything broader than that though? like writing whole servers or something?
2020-12-14T08:18:43Z srandon111: phoe, i would like to write a gopher server
2020-12-14T08:18:55Z srandon111: so is usocket the right place to go?
2020-12-14T08:19:02Z phoe: I think so, yes, you can use it
2020-12-14T08:19:14Z srandon111: beach, could you suggest a more gender-neutral greeting? (I am serious, english is not my mother tongue)
2020-12-14T08:19:26Z no-defun-allowed: "Good morning everyone!"
2020-12-14T08:19:28Z srandon111: phoe, are there more high level network programming libraries?
2020-12-14T08:19:29Z phoe: srandon111: folks, everyone, people, lispers
2020-12-14T08:19:32Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, ok thanks
2020-12-14T08:19:35Z srandon111: phoe, thanks
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2020-12-14T08:19:51Z easye: srandon111: "folks" works, but is perhaps a little homespun.
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2020-12-14T08:20:01Z srandon111: easye, homespun?
2020-12-14T08:20:07Z no-defun-allowed: Well, usocket is at the level that programming sockets looks like programming normal file or console I/O, because you can get streams and use the normal Common Lisp stream functions with them.
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2020-12-14T08:20:16Z easye: Well, folk-sy.
2020-12-14T08:20:25Z srandon111: folks, i am careful to these kind of things, i also renamed my default branches on git from "master" to "main"
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2020-12-14T08:20:49Z phoe: srandon111: I'm not aware of any; networking is a broad topic so higher-level libraries might be specializations rather than generalizations - and therefore not work for the majority of all cases.
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2020-12-14T08:21:10Z phoe: like, of any higher-level libraries.
2020-12-14T08:21:38Z phoe: but I think that if you're implementing a simple protocol like gopher, then usocket should work just fine
2020-12-14T08:21:45Z srandon111: ok thank phoe
2020-12-14T08:21:51Z srandon111: *thanks
2020-12-14T08:21:53Z phoe: I'd write a single-threaded version of the server first and then optionally generalize to multiple threads.
2020-12-14T08:22:04Z srandon111: any good tutorial/examples on how to use it outside the common lisp cookbook
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2020-12-14T08:22:43Z phoe: I think you can get inspired by a server for a similar protocol, one sec...
2020-12-14T08:23:15Z srandon111: ok thanks phoe  i'll wait
2020-12-14T08:23:23Z phoe: https://git.carcosa.net/jmcbray/germinal/
2020-12-14T08:23:49Z phoe: this one is for Gemini. GPLv3 code.
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2020-12-14T08:28:11Z srandon111: phoe, what is gemini?
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2020-12-14T08:28:47Z no-defun-allowed: A protocol that looks roughly like Gopher.
2020-12-14T08:28:48Z phoe: srandon111: a pretty new protocol that aims to be Gopher, except with better encryption by default and some other nice tweaks. It is slowly but steadily gains popularity.
2020-12-14T08:28:56Z no-defun-allowed: "new"
2020-12-14T08:28:58Z phoe: s/gains/gaining/
2020-12-14T08:29:23Z no-defun-allowed: The introduction says it's explicitly not a substitute for Gopher (or HTTP).
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2020-12-14T08:32:37Z no-defun-allowed: But it looks sufficiently like Gopher, that you could glean off how to implement a Gopher server.
2020-12-14T08:32:47Z srandon111: ook thanks no-defun-allowed
2020-12-14T08:33:28Z srandon111: the thing is always, will it be available through lynx
2020-12-14T08:33:29Z srandon111: i hope so
2020-12-14T08:34:01Z phoe: if lynx gets support for this new protocol, possibly! terminal browsers for gemini also exist by now.
2020-12-14T08:34:06Z phoe: but that's no longer a strictly #lisp discussion
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2020-12-14T08:38:39Z entre-parenteses: srandon111: From the "Gopher (protocol)" wikipedia page (I had to look up what Gopher was), I came across this repo that may be an interesting resource for you: https://github.com/heddwch/geomyid
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2020-12-14T08:38:59Z phoe: oooooh
2020-12-14T08:39:01Z entre-parenteses: It's a bit old but written in CL so it may be helpful
2020-12-14T08:39:04Z phoe: entre-parenteses: nice! I wasn't aware of that
2020-12-14T08:40:28Z entre-parenteses: It was just chance that I came upon it.  Hopefully it helps.
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2020-12-14T08:43:10Z harlchen: i get 'The function QUUX-HUNCHENTOOT::WRAPPED-ERROR-P is undefined. ' if i try to connect to a running acceptor , what is a :good way to start and debug it ? emacs/sly/sbcl
2020-12-14T08:43:16Z srandon111: thanks entre-parenteses
2020-12-14T08:43:39Z harlchen: from looking through the debugger/inspector i don't even see what tries to call it
2020-12-14T08:43:46Z srandon111: phoe, what's this git service ? https://git.carcosa.net/
2020-12-14T08:43:56Z srandon111: i mean is it something commonly used by lispers ?
2020-12-14T08:43:59Z phoe: srandon111: seems like a random Gitea instance.
2020-12-14T08:44:20Z phoe: nope, not really. lots of lispers use github, some use the official gitlab, some use gitlab.common-lisp.net, some use other services.
2020-12-14T08:44:24Z phoe: git is decentralized, after all.
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2020-12-14T08:44:49Z phoe: harlchen: what's the backtrace?
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2020-12-14T08:46:26Z harlchen: http://paste.debian.net/1176831/
2020-12-14T08:46:54Z phoe: what's the HTTP-THREAD package?
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2020-12-14T08:48:59Z harlchen: ah sorry, my local-nickname for quux-hunchentoot
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2020-12-14T08:50:57Z phoe: where does the symbol QUUX-HUNCHENTOOT::WRAPPED-ERROR-P even come from? it does not exist in https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/qitab/quux-hunchentoot/-/blob/master/thread-pooling.lisp
2020-12-14T08:51:16Z phoe: where did you get quux-hunchentoot from? how old is it?
2020-12-14T08:51:46Z harlchen: i did look there first, it appears in https://github.com/lmj/lparallel/blob/9c11f40018155a472c540b63684049acc9b36e15/src/kernel/handling.lisp#L33
2020-12-14T08:52:13Z harlchen: and it came from ql:quickload
2020-12-14T08:52:15Z phoe: no, this is the wrong package
2020-12-14T08:52:25Z phoe: 1) this is package LPARALLEL.KERNEL, not QUUX-HUNCHENTOOT
2020-12-14T08:52:39Z phoe: 2) this symbol is named WRAPPED-ERROR, not WRAPPED-ERROR-P
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2020-12-14T08:53:45Z harlchen: there is this structure https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/qitab/quux-hunchentoot/-/blob/master/thread-pooling.lisp#L262
2020-12-14T08:54:39Z phoe: yes, but this symbol once again comes from LPARALLEL, not from QUUX-HUNCHENTOOT.
2020-12-14T08:54:55Z harlchen: yep
2020-12-14T08:55:07Z phoe: so, no idea.
2020-12-14T08:55:22Z harlchen: :)
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2020-12-14T09:05:56Z harlchen: the symbol also doesn't appear anywhere in my quicklisp directory
2020-12-14T09:06:42Z phoe: wtf then
2020-12-14T09:06:52Z phoe: (ql:update-all-dists) or something?
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2020-12-14T09:50:48Z harlchen: if a (let ((p package)  is :use'ing a (s system) would it then be reported as a missing symbol from p ?
2020-12-14T09:51:39Z phoe: wait a second
2020-12-14T09:51:49Z phoe: this sentence doesn't really make sense.
2020-12-14T09:52:04Z phoe: a package cannot use a system.
2020-12-14T09:52:16Z phoe: there's nothing about symbols there, anyway.
2020-12-14T09:52:20Z phoe: could you show us the code in question?
2020-12-14T09:52:27Z harlchen: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/qitab/quux-hunchentoot/-/blob/master/pkgdcl.lisp#L5
2020-12-14T09:53:07Z phoe: it only uses the exported symbols of lparallel.
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2020-12-14T09:53:37Z phoe: so, https://github.com/lmj/lparallel/blob/master/src/package.lisp
2020-12-14T09:54:13Z harlchen: hmm, k.
2020-12-14T09:54:43Z harlchen: thanks
2020-12-14T09:55:03Z phoe: one second though
2020-12-14T09:55:16Z phoe: hidden behind macrology, there is a symbol named LPARALLEL.KERNEL::WRAPPED-ERROR-P
2020-12-14T09:55:20Z phoe: and it is fbound!
2020-12-14T09:55:54Z phoe: https://github.com/lmj/lparallel/blob/9c11f40018155a472c540b63684049acc9b36e15/src/kernel/handling.lisp#L33-L37
2020-12-14T09:56:08Z phoe: this expands into DEFSTRUCT WRAPPED-ERROR that defines the predicate WRAPPED-ERROR-P
2020-12-14T09:56:15Z phoe: so that's the definition.
2020-12-14T09:56:36Z phoe: but where does QUUX-HUNCHENTOOT::WRAPPED-ERROR-P come from?
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2020-12-14T10:02:54Z phoe: I am starting to suspect Trivia
2020-12-14T10:05:44Z phoe: hmmm
2020-12-14T10:05:57Z phoe: (trivia:ematch x ((structure trivia::adasdsd-) 42)) macroexpands into something that uses a symbol named ADASDSD-P
2020-12-14T10:06:09Z phoe: highly suspicious
2020-12-14T10:06:23Z harlchen: interesting
2020-12-14T10:06:27Z phoe: please feel free to take this further from here; I'll pass on it now
2020-12-14T10:08:58Z harlchen: sure, thanks for the hint, that would have taken me a while of looking at the call from quux-hunchentoot (structure lparallel.kernel::wrapped-error-)) to follow the ematch and suspect (an expansion in ?) trivia
2020-12-14T10:10:44Z phoe: that would take me a while too
2020-12-14T10:11:02Z phoe: try going to the file thread-pooling.lisp and try to manually compile DEFMETHOD RUN-DISPATCHER-THREAD
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2020-12-14T10:11:11Z phoe: let's see if this pops up a compilation warning.
2020-12-14T10:11:17Z phoe: with the symbol in question, too.
2020-12-14T10:11:23Z harlchen: k
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2020-12-14T10:36:44Z splittist: I'm always amazed at how a couple of minutes scribbling a note and a diagram can replace hours of typing and staring at a screen. And how a couple of minutes typing and looking at a screen can replace hours of scribbling notes and diagrams. If only I knew which would help when (:
2020-12-14T10:37:21Z phoe: :D
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2020-12-14T10:38:34Z srandon111 is now known as sookablyat
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2020-12-14T10:56:54Z _death: (let ((p (lp:promise))) (mapc (lambda (action) (lp:future (sleep (random 10)) (lp:fulfill p action))) '(code scribble)) (lp:force p))
2020-12-14T11:01:34Z Nilby: One hand code, one hand scrible.
2020-12-14T11:02:05Z phoe: Head smash keyboard to produce IRC messages.
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2020-12-14T11:03:15Z Nilby: But the whatever the hands do, solution sems to be skulking obsucred in the back of my mind.
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2020-12-14T11:13:11Z _death: after minutes of code, lp:por presents itself
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2020-12-14T11:26:23Z adlai wonders whether there's a quickway to revert a project fetched by quicklisp
2020-12-14T11:27:11Z phoe: revert? what do you mean?
2020-12-14T11:27:28Z phoe: you mean local-projects or a QL-downloaded one?
2020-12-14T11:27:35Z jackdaniel: probably downgrade the dist
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2020-12-14T11:27:43Z adlai: a ql-downloaded
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2020-12-14T11:28:26Z adlai has a bad habit of M-. to read, then making edits
2020-12-14T11:28:43Z jackdaniel: ah, that's what you mean
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2020-12-14T11:29:02Z jackdaniel: just remove ~/quicklisp/software/dists/quicklisp/library-name
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2020-12-14T11:29:13Z jackdaniel: ql will then "re-download it" when needed
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2020-12-14T11:29:46Z adlai: there's a #'ql:uninstall , I was wondering whether there's an idiomatic way to only reset an existing system to the downloaded state
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2020-12-14T11:30:23Z adlai: it looks like the dists/quicklisp/archives/ directory has the tarballs
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2020-12-14T11:32:45Z Nilby thinks fixing things, even with M-. , is good habit.
2020-12-14T11:33:30Z Nilby: But maybe there should be an emacs command to move it to a properly checked out repo.
2020-12-14T11:34:32Z phoe: the issue is that quicklisp works on tarballs, not git repos
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2020-12-14T11:34:48Z phoe: some quicklisp projects don't even have git repos
2020-12-14T11:36:04Z adlai: what I want is (find-method #'ql::install () '(ql-dist:release))
2020-12-14T11:37:06Z adlai: s/want/$1ed/ , and now I wonder whether this is a Bad Idea because what I wanted is neither in an exported symbol, and is only one specific method out of a generic function that is usually called on the system rather than the release.
2020-12-14T11:37:49Z adlai didn't quite complete that "neither... nor", although the confusion should be perfectly clear
2020-12-14T11:39:29Z adlai: Nilby: welllll yes, in principle
2020-12-14T11:40:06Z oni-on-ion: (not "either ... or")
2020-12-14T11:40:56Z adlai: in practice, what might best suit my current workflow, without changing the way quicklisp works, is to `git init` in the dists/<dist>/software directory, and automatically `git commit` after each update of the dist
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2020-12-14T11:41:27Z Nilby likes to imagine a world of principled and integrated CL software.
2020-12-14T11:41:39Z adlai: then if I edit things, even in a few different projects, I can easily revert; and perhaps output patches, if things are worth sending upstream.
2020-12-14T11:43:12Z adlai: quicklisp's upstream projects aren't all using the same version control system, and my local preference shouldn't care what the upstream projects are using
2020-12-14T11:44:35Z adlai likes to imagine some future day when the CL implementation's pathnames include native support for common version control systems
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2020-12-14T11:48:07Z flip214: adlai: well, package-local-nicknames are already done, so next step is surely non-local-pathnames, right? (webdav, git, sftp, ...)
2020-12-14T11:49:25Z adlai: e.g., the standard allows pathname-version to be any non-negative integer; the ANSI committee may not have had (unsigned-byte 256) in mind, although that is iirc the actual output space of git tree IDs.
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2020-12-14T11:50:40Z harlchen: i have mito/sxql in my .asd mito/sxql -> optima ; in my loaded system run-dispatcher expands into http://paste.debian.net/1176847/ (by redefining) it only sees optima:ematch from the namespace quux-hunchentoot it also only sees optimas ematch even tough it is never used or referenced in any way, as far as i can see.
2020-12-14T11:51:01Z adlai: flip214: I'm content limiting myself to dealing with version control hell within my own local computer, and leave those who care about retconning standardized access to non-local files to their own devices...
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2020-12-14T11:58:10Z adlai goes back to poking at cl-pdf , wondering how well it'll deal with 15 years of new standards
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2020-12-14T12:00:03Z oni-on-ion: good thing CL is standardised
2020-12-14T12:00:21Z adlai: if I now waste the next two weeks on updating its parser to support linearized documents, instead of just submitting paperwork right away, and have patches to the upstream library by the end of the year, then maybe at least one good thing happened in 2020
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2020-12-14T12:00:46Z Nilby: Adobe intentionally made conforming exactly to the PDF standard basically impossible.
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2020-12-14T12:01:58Z adlai refuses to print, scribble, and scan; and fortunately now has an indefinite deadline, so it is permissible to get sidetracked
2020-12-14T12:03:45Z adlai: cl-pdf does not only support writing documents! it does actually have pdf-parser.lisp hiding in pdf-parser.asd
2020-12-14T12:04:08Z adlai: the author's homepage seems down, though.
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2020-12-14T12:05:24Z adlai: it is a wonderful example of lazy CL programming... defines a root condition class, pdf-parse-error; and then all "other" conditions are just functions that give it a different :message arg
2020-12-14T12:06:00Z phoe reads the above, becomes somewhat angry
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2020-12-14T12:17:24Z _death: anger2patch phoe >cl-pdf
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2020-12-14T12:24:39Z phoe: _death: for now I've only made a https://github.com/mbattyani/cl-pdf/issues/18
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2020-12-14T12:28:11Z nij: I'm having problem with the notion of thread.. as the cl cookbook seems to be too involving.
2020-12-14T12:28:33Z phoe: nij: you mean "thread" in the multiprocessing context?
2020-12-14T12:28:59Z semz: Are there "best practices" about how to describe error conditions through the condition system in CL? The whole "one condition with ten million messages" thing strikes a little too close to home, both for my own code and for code I've used in the past.
2020-12-14T12:29:00Z nij: Is there a minimal working example? I hope to create a thread that has one local variable, initially at 0, which increases by 1 each second.
2020-12-14T12:29:29Z nij:  The thread should terminate itself after it reaches 60. User can query the value, and send signals for the value to change.
2020-12-14T12:29:55Z nij: phoe: Yes, in multiprocessing context.
2020-12-14T12:30:26Z phoe: semz: just create subtypes wherever applicable, especially when you'd like to pass new arguments to them.
2020-12-14T12:30:40Z phoe: nij: a thread is something that is capable of executing code on its own, independently of everything else.
2020-12-14T12:31:08Z phoe: (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((x 0)) (loop (print x) (incf x) (sleep 1)))))
2020-12-14T12:31:33Z phoe: that's a thread that will loop forever and print an increasing counter.
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2020-12-14T12:31:54Z phoe: it will print to the *inferior-lisp* buffer most likely unless you rebind its special variables.
2020-12-14T12:32:27Z nij: Without asking it printing, can one access to its X?
2020-12-14T12:32:52Z beach: Luckily, no.
2020-12-14T12:33:06Z beach: If one could, then the compiler could make no optimizations.
2020-12-14T12:33:19Z phoe: not really; you'd need some mailbox sort of logic to be able to request the value of X and so the thread can send it back.
2020-12-14T12:33:30Z phoe: that is doable, just requires more code.
2020-12-14T12:33:42Z nij: Oh.. no wonder it's more involving than I thought.
2020-12-14T12:33:55Z nij: Or is there other thing that helps achieve the same thing?
2020-12-14T12:34:07Z phoe: achieve what exactly?
2020-12-14T12:34:07Z beach: I don't think #lisp is the best place to learn about threads.
2020-12-14T12:34:26Z phoe: you can define *x* as a global variable and have one thread increase it while the other threads get its value.
2020-12-14T12:34:27Z nij: I just want to create a friend in cl, and ask/change the value of its local variable by sending signals.
2020-12-14T12:34:37Z nij: beach: #clschool?
2020-12-14T12:34:39Z phoe: oh, something like that
2020-12-14T12:34:49Z beach: nij: I was thinking of CS-101.
2020-12-14T12:34:53Z phoe: you could try to look at cl-actors for such sort of behavior
2020-12-14T12:35:04Z _death: nij: you can create a queue where you pass commands like (:set-x 123)
2020-12-14T12:35:15Z phoe: actors, by definition, are entities that can send, receive, and react to messages.
2020-12-14T12:35:43Z nij: beach: there's no one in #cs-101
2020-12-14T12:36:19Z phoe: it's a course name
2020-12-14T12:36:20Z semz: lol
2020-12-14T12:36:45Z nij: lol cs-101 teaches common-lisp? I will enroll in that University.
2020-12-14T12:36:46Z phoe: beach meant the basics of computer science - that's where the notion of a thread is usually introduced
2020-12-14T12:37:19Z nij: Yeah but I want it in cl..
2020-12-14T12:37:37Z nij: I know what a thread is (roughly), but I want a working example in cl.
2020-12-14T12:37:53Z nij: cl-actor seems legit. I will look into that :) thanks!
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2020-12-14T13:44:53Z harlchen: deleted all old .fasl and it works , i guess some link went stale
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2020-12-14T13:47:40Z harlchen: but an interesting debugging excursus
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2020-12-14T13:50:44Z kenran: dang, I can't decide which language to use for a "recreational" terminal emulator... It seems like lisp has the most mature libraries to use, that is, seemingly a good freetype wrapper, and nice graphics stuff as well as good c ffi in general. but I'm a little turned off by how large the executables seem to become.
2020-12-14T13:51:04Z kenran: do you think it's worth trying different compilers? So far I've only given sbcl a try.
2020-12-14T13:51:12Z phoe: did you use core compression with SBCL?
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2020-12-14T13:51:33Z phoe: if not, try to use it, and then compare the sizes.
2020-12-14T13:51:53Z jackdaniel: kenran: ecl produces small binaries and levereges shared library model (the implementation is a shared library itself) if you are that much concerned about size
2020-12-14T13:52:04Z kenran: phoe: that's on my list to try. there's no terminal yet, so it's not much use only looking at my hello world stuff :D
2020-12-14T13:52:06Z jackdaniel: that said, given we have 1tb drives practically for free nowday
2020-12-14T13:52:28Z jackdaniel: having a binary taking 100mb is like a binary taking 1mb on back-then 1gb drives
2020-12-14T13:52:44Z jackdaniel: s/100mb/1gb/
2020-12-14T13:52:53Z jackdaniel: so come on, don't be that cheap! ;-)
2020-12-14T13:53:07Z kenran: I'm actually not much concerned about executables being 30mb+ in size, as you said, that's not much of a problem at all nowadays (I haven't checked how big those electron-based things even are)
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2020-12-14T13:53:39Z kenran: I think I'm just subconsciously looking for reasons to switch languages all the time and never doing the hard work...
2020-12-14T13:53:47Z jackdaniel: ah
2020-12-14T13:54:27Z jackdaniel: either way, I wouldn't bother with how much executables take produced by sbcl (and if you are i.e because you have 128mb nand flash on the embedded device, switch to i.e ecl)
2020-12-14T13:54:38Z kenran: I'm really interested in CL though, as I like the interactive way of development via REPL very much. I've only recently begun doing functional programming at my job
2020-12-14T13:55:05Z jackdaniel: common lisp does not encourage functional programming in any particular way
2020-12-14T13:55:26Z Nilby: I guarantee the executable size of a terminal emulator in C/C++ is the same or bigger if you include the shared libraries and development system.
2020-12-14T13:55:38Z kenran: ah yeah ofc, but I learned FP via racket and haskell, and then used clojure a bit. so I learned to love LISPs :)
2020-12-14T13:56:12Z jackdaniel: (there are a few common lisp libraries which embrace that particular kind of the programming style, but they are in minority given sheer volume of different libraries in the ecosystem)
2020-12-14T13:56:15Z kenran: but I'm still not hating on OOP, so CL seems like a great language to do "what fits the problems"
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2020-12-14T13:58:36Z kenran: the idea would be to learn a bit about: low-level and POSIX stuff, graphics stuff via opengl, maybe vulkan later? performance would be a small concern, but learning is the main goal. It feels like CL is just a great language (on paper, as I haven't done enough with it yet) to do all that and learn a lot.
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2020-12-14T13:59:15Z kenran: my boss is a scheme/racket guy though, so he's hating on CL a bit :D no reason not to learn it for me in any way
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2020-12-14T14:01:40Z jackdaniel: usually people I've met who use scheme/recket are not really hating cl, they just love their language (and vice versa)
2020-12-14T14:02:22Z kenran: 'hating' was a rough term, yes, but there were a couple of 'derogatory' comments (in good humour though)
2020-12-14T14:02:24Z jackdaniel: I think that language-wars were a thing in the past, but I have not witnessed any (escept for trolling and innocent jokes)
2020-12-14T14:03:08Z jackdaniel: and somewhat biased framing of concepts: hygienic macros vs non-higienic macros (from my perspective they are sterile macros vs organic macros :)
2020-12-14T14:03:54Z kenran: ha, I have to write that down :) a colleague of mine is often talking about this and he'd surely love to hear this perspective
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2020-12-14T14:04:27Z jackdaniel: be my guest ,)
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2020-12-14T14:08:02Z Nilby: jackdaniel: ^ Comma not inside a backquote.
2020-12-14T14:08:30Z jackdaniel: that's how I invoke commands at top-level
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2020-12-14T14:10:34Z Nilby: sorry I got syntax triggered. I guess I should sya ,sayonara
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2020-12-14T16:43:27Z nij: I have written a print-function for my structure DATE. https://bpa.st/U7IQ
2020-12-14T16:43:49Z nij: How do I transform an instance of DATE into a string, as printed?
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2020-12-14T16:44:17Z phoe: clhs prin1-to-string
2020-12-14T16:44:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_to_.htm
2020-12-14T16:44:49Z nij: This is the cleanest way?
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2020-12-14T16:45:37Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2192#2192
2020-12-14T16:45:39Z phoe: yes
2020-12-14T16:45:53Z phoe: but beware, this format is not going to be readable back into Lisp.
2020-12-14T16:46:15Z phoe: I'd try using print-unreadable-object to get something like #<DATE 2020-12-24> instead.
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2020-12-14T16:49:13Z nij: Readable?
2020-12-14T16:50:48Z aeth: my guess is something like (read-from-string "#<DATE 2020-12-24>")
2020-12-14T16:50:54Z lotuseater: phoe means like having #S for reading in structs
2020-12-14T16:50:55Z aeth: or, of course, just literally using it in source
2020-12-14T16:51:10Z phoe: readable, as in, understandable by CL:READ
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2020-12-14T16:51:50Z sookablyat: guys is there anything similar to racket universe libraries to make games in a functional way?
2020-12-14T16:52:01Z nij: Oh yeah.. I want to print that into a text file :) so I think I'm fine.
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2020-12-14T16:52:23Z nij: sookablyat: #racket?
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2020-12-14T16:54:00Z sookablyat: nij,  i think that in order to search something in lisp i should ask in #lisp
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2020-12-14T16:54:41Z beach: nij: I think sookablyat is asking all male #lisp participants who also know Racket about a library for Common Lisp that is described by a Racket library.
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2020-12-14T16:58:00Z nij: oh!
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2020-12-14T16:59:46Z easye: nij: #lisp is (mostly) Common Lisp specific.  Maybe you can help those of us who don't know Racket that well what the set "racket universe libraries" contains?
2020-12-14T17:00:25Z beach: easye: Aww, you don't know that one?
2020-12-14T17:00:38Z easye: heh
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2020-12-14T17:01:13Z beach: #lisp participants are supposed to know not only Racket, but also Clojure, Java, JavaScript, Python, C, and C++.
2020-12-14T17:01:23Z aeth: sookablyat: Common Lisp is about doing things efficiently in whichever paradigm is suitable for the task, and for games, that's certainly *not* a pure functional style with lots of immutable data structures being created and destroyed 30+ times a second.
2020-12-14T17:01:42Z easye: I try, but struggle in forgetting all the stuff I remember.
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2020-12-14T17:02:48Z lotuseater: oh i must learn Java and JS? :D
2020-12-14T17:04:27Z Nilby: Of course we know every blub language: blub.blub(blub+blub());
2020-12-14T17:04:31Z nij: How did people make games in haskell then? Eg. https://soupi.github.io/rfc/pfgames/
2020-12-14T17:05:47Z olle: nij: the game engine is probably in C
2020-12-14T17:05:51Z olle: the rendering parts
2020-12-14T17:05:57Z aeth: nij: Three points. One, people there care about optimizing something that's inherently the suboptimal way to do it (not just pure FP, also lazy evaluation). Two, the compiler helps out by optimizing immutable data structures (while CL doesn't even really let you declare anything as immutable). Three, almost certainly 2D games. You can do things the "wrong" way in 2D because computers today are so much faster than 80s computers.
2020-12-14T17:06:15Z lotuseater: nij: maybe with lenses? :)
2020-12-14T17:06:47Z aeth: And, yeah, the rendering parts either have to be in C/C++ (probably the latter) or they have to be written in a heavily mutable, non-idiomatic style and wrapped. (Even CL engines do the latter, even though mutability itself isn't non-idiomatic in CL.)
2020-12-14T17:06:49Z shka_: why would you write game in a functional style?
2020-12-14T17:06:52Z lotuseater: see this: https://github.com/rainbyte/frag
2020-12-14T17:06:55Z shka_: there is little benefits to it
2020-12-14T17:07:34Z shka_: unless you are doing something weird
2020-12-14T17:07:39Z olle: aeth: the language Clean allow for destructive update, by opt-in ownership system.
2020-12-14T17:07:48Z olle: So in such a language, maybe.
2020-12-14T17:07:54Z aeth: Writing a game in a *declarative* style has many benefits, but functional is a poor fit for the domain imo.
2020-12-14T17:08:04Z davros: quite a lot of a game can look good in FP, its just the low level side of rendering (filling command buffers etc) that looks ugly there
2020-12-14T17:08:06Z aeth: Alternatively, you can write an entire language implementation around it.
2020-12-14T17:08:17Z aeth: There is a 3D engine in Haskell, though, afaik.
2020-12-14T17:08:23Z davros: shaders are pretty much pure functional, and physics update looks good too
2020-12-14T17:08:32Z aeth: Yeah, I was about to bring up shaders.
2020-12-14T17:08:42Z aeth: Writing a pure FP shader language is totally doable.
2020-12-14T17:08:47Z davros: next_frame_state = pure_fundction(inputs, previous_frame_state)
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2020-12-14T17:08:56Z aeth: C is a really poor fit for shaders, and stuff like GLSL are unnecessarily confusing because of it.
2020-12-14T17:09:06Z aeth: The model isn't anything close to C, it's just what people are familiar with.
2020-12-14T17:09:22Z davros: i've grown up around C so it looks good to me but i know what you're saying
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2020-12-14T17:09:43Z davros: shader language is "C-inspired" rathat than really being C with all the pointer stuff
2020-12-14T17:09:43Z nij: I have no idea what you folks are saying.. nevermind :'(
2020-12-14T17:09:57Z lotuseater: yeah it's quite about using functional programming concepts at the right parts
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2020-12-14T17:10:19Z aeth: davros: Yeah, GLSL has no pointers, but is otherwise very C-style, with a bunch of implicit, hidden global variables that you set.
2020-12-14T17:10:33Z davros: john carmack pointed out.. a game state is really a few mb out of gigabytes of RAM these days. there'd be no harm in keeping the whole previous frame gamestate around immutable, read only, for update to generate the next frame
2020-12-14T17:10:48Z davros: aeth yeah thats ugly
2020-12-14T17:10:51Z aeth: In reality, you can think of shaders as function-like objects (instead of tiny programs with hidden globals), where the "globals" are now the inputs and the outputs
2020-12-14T17:11:06Z aeth: And that means put all of the inputs and outputs at the top imo.
2020-12-14T17:11:06Z davros: i really think of that as a hack for getting multiple values out
2020-12-14T17:11:11Z shka_: davros: the point is: why bother?
2020-12-14T17:11:16Z davros: its really like "writing to those is the return values"
2020-12-14T17:11:18Z shka_: what are you even getting out of it
2020-12-14T17:11:19Z shka_: ?
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2020-12-14T17:11:26Z davros: shka_, massive parallelism
2020-12-14T17:11:37Z shka_: in a game state?
2020-12-14T17:11:42Z shka_: :P
2020-12-14T17:11:44Z davros: and the solidity of FP generally
2020-12-14T17:11:51Z davros: yes, a game state is a lot of objects that can update in parallel
2020-12-14T17:11:51Z shka_: IN A GAME STATE?
2020-12-14T17:12:16Z shka_: i am not buying this
2020-12-14T17:12:23Z davros: game update can get quite intensive if you want huge physics and AI
2020-12-14T17:12:31Z aeth: davros: you do keep the previous state around in any networked game since you need to compensate for the finite speed of light introducing latency that's usually much larger than any frame is. Unless your ping is < 20 ms, of course.
2020-12-14T17:12:35Z davros: the ambition is there to do it massively parallel
2020-12-14T17:12:39Z aeth: (But even then, most of your frame time would be eaten by the lag.)
2020-12-14T17:12:45Z shka_: i mean, FP is good fit for a lot of things, but for games?
2020-12-14T17:12:46Z shka_: nah
2020-12-14T17:12:58Z shka_: unless you need something weird
2020-12-14T17:13:12Z shka_: for instance you need reservable game state
2020-12-14T17:13:18Z shka_: or something like that
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2020-12-14T17:13:22Z davros: shka_ it's a good fit for large parts of games . i agree trying to do rendering code gets ugly in haskell though, that's where I stalled. (haskel gl bindings are just horrible)
2020-12-14T17:13:23Z aeth: shka_: FP can work in places, like shaders.
2020-12-14T17:13:35Z davros: it can work in game update too with previous immutable frame :)
2020-12-14T17:13:49Z aeth: But asking for a fully immutable game engine would be like asking for a fully immutable database or something.
2020-12-14T17:14:10Z aeth: Clearly, a database is all about state, so you're going to have to break that fiction somewhere.
2020-12-14T17:14:14Z davros: Rust is a really nice sweetspot, imperative with a good pure subset (more solid than C/C++ with const, because rust immutable realyl does mean immutable)
2020-12-14T17:14:14Z shka_: davros: i want to point out, that this immutable game state means that every update will cons
2020-12-14T17:14:28Z shka_: which may or may not be a problem
2020-12-14T17:14:35Z davros: every update will consturct a new frame - yes , thats no problem really
2020-12-14T17:14:50Z shka_: anyway, i don't buy functional video game concept
2020-12-14T17:14:51Z davros: 4gb of game state typically - double buffering it for parallel update is probably needed anyway
2020-12-14T17:15:01Z shka_: for stuff like aviation software?
2020-12-14T17:15:29Z shka_: sure, FP and formal validation is really compelling
2020-12-14T17:15:30Z aeth: davros: Written naively, it's not that every update cycle will cons, it's that every single update operation will cons, which is... probably several tens of thousands of times more consing at a minimum.
2020-12-14T17:15:40Z shka_: video games? nah
2020-12-14T17:15:59Z davros: aeth / shka_ are you talking about a specific way of doing it in lisp ("cons") ??
2020-12-14T17:16:15Z shka_: davros: cons has two meaning in lisp world
2020-12-14T17:16:19Z davros: just blasting out a new gamestate from reading an old one should not be a problem
2020-12-14T17:16:20Z shka_: or even three actually
2020-12-14T17:16:37Z shka_: there is CONS data type, there is a CONS function, and there is general verb consing
2020-12-14T17:16:39Z aeth: davros: "cons" =  allocate new things on the garbage collected heap, potentially triggering a new GC pause which will stop the world for potentially longer than the time you have to do a frame's worth of calculations
2020-12-14T17:16:44Z davros: 4mb, even copying the unchanging parts, out of 4+gigs of ram is  not a problem
2020-12-14T17:16:45Z shka_: that translates to allocation for normal people
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2020-12-14T17:17:14Z davros: i'm pretty sure GC could be given usful per-frame hints or something
2020-12-14T17:17:16Z aeth: It's called consing because the easiest way to cons is to just (cons :foo whatever) and add a tag in front of whatever
2020-12-14T17:17:19Z aeth: I'm guessing.
2020-12-14T17:17:50Z shka_: aeth: i suspect that this comes from waaaay back LISP 1.0
2020-12-14T17:18:13Z shka_: but it stucked
2020-12-14T17:18:18Z aeth: davros: as for giving the GC hints... that's... kind of what I said something along the lines of "you could probably write a whole language implementation around it"
2020-12-14T17:18:25Z aeth: It's too niche to be supported in a mainstream implementation, though
2020-12-14T17:18:25Z davros: ok
2020-12-14T17:18:58Z davros: realtime interactice is pretty important these days eg phone UI's are all animated, and AR/VR might get more popular
2020-12-14T17:19:37Z shka_: anyway, the cool thing about the common lisp is that it does not force you in a specific direction
2020-12-14T17:19:40Z davros: ah this conversation is happeningin #lisp sorry i thought   i was talknig in #gamedev lmao. hence the lispy focus
2020-12-14T17:19:42Z shka_: this has some drawbacks
2020-12-14T17:19:42Z aeth: Languages like Haskell are superior for immutable FP over languages like Common Lisp because the Haskell compiler will optimize away a lot of the "consing", while the CL one won't since there's no guaranteed immutability except for literals that don't leave the scope of a function (since literals aren't tagged and are thus only immutable by convention because they'll cause issues if you mutate them)
2020-12-14T17:19:58Z shka_: but most of the time it is beyond useful
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2020-12-14T17:20:14Z aeth: However, Haskell isn't optimized for real time or gamedev, so it won't necessarily make the correct decisions if you wanted to write a full FP game engine.
2020-12-14T17:20:24Z aeth: So if you wanted to write a full FP game engine, the first step would probably be to write a full language.
2020-12-14T17:20:50Z shka_: ... or use CL and isolate mutable parts manually
2020-12-14T17:20:55Z aeth: Or at least e.g. a CL implementation that makes the right tradeoffs for GC and adds the right immutability/pure declarations
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2020-12-14T17:21:34Z shka_: CL allows you to do evil things, like for instance have a memory pool for game states
2020-12-14T17:21:39Z aeth: shka_: Fully pure FP can only be done if the mutability is outsourced to the language implementation level, since you're going to have to cheat at some point. I guess you could also do it at the hardware level, of course, but that would be the most C CISC ever so it's not a popular idea in the era of RISCs.
2020-12-14T17:22:22Z lotuseater: aeth: as i said above, don't forget about lenses
2020-12-14T17:22:35Z shka_: aeth: sure, but my point is that you don't even have to be 100% pure FP to have 99% benefits of FP
2020-12-14T17:22:53Z shka_: so that's why i prefer hybrid approach
2020-12-14T17:23:33Z aeth: Yes, but these days, most people talk about "FP" as in immutable data structures while in CL game engines, you're probably doing "FP" as in pure functions being used purely for their return values, which will ultimately end up in mutable data structures for efficiency.
2020-12-14T17:23:41Z aeth: The most trivial example, of course, is +
2020-12-14T17:23:45Z shka_: sure
2020-12-14T17:23:58Z shka_: and as long interfaces are done right, it is fine
2020-12-14T17:24:04Z olle: https://clean.cs.ru.nl/Language_features
2020-12-14T17:24:11Z shka_: stop worry, embrace the mutation! :P
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2020-12-14T17:24:58Z shka_: boycott the purity!
2020-12-14T17:25:10Z jackdaniel: and don't eat the yellow snow
2020-12-14T17:25:19Z shka_: yeah, that as well
2020-12-14T17:25:30Z lotuseater: and dynamic strong typing even fits game writing better imo
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2020-12-14T17:26:52Z aeth: As for types... It really depends on the part of the engine you're writing. You want to precompute as much as possible, which means writing tons of macros, and there, the type doesn't really matter since most of the time you only really care if it's a list or not.
2020-12-14T17:27:36Z aeth: But the part that most people would probably write in C or C++... that's probably very C-like. Including full type declarations, using structs with slots with :type in them, using arrays of single-float or some optimized finite integer size, etc.
2020-12-14T17:27:51Z aeth: And most places are somewhere in between. CL, of course, lets you do it all.
2020-12-14T17:27:52Z davros: i do prefer to qualify "pureFP"
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2020-12-14T17:30:08Z shka_: davros: well, i can't convince you
2020-12-14T17:31:08Z davros: what can i say .. i code in c++ and i'm always trying to increase the amout of read-onlyness to increase parallelisability ..
2020-12-14T17:31:35Z davros: i was convinced of the potential for pure FP when the xbox360 and PS3 hit us some years ago
2020-12-14T17:31:58Z davros: "write efficient code for modern parallel machiens" = "make as much of it as pure-functional as you can"
2020-12-14T17:32:21Z adlai: some sorta compromise: keep a fixed number of state, and compute as much as possible of your algorithms in-place; the leftover bits of consing, in the actual, might be small enough that you can afford the default GC
2020-12-14T17:32:23Z davros: doing explicit double-buffering in c++ is an option
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2020-12-14T17:32:36Z adlai: fixed number of frames
2020-12-14T17:32:37Z jackdaniel: wasn't it rather mutate in a map-reduce fashion though?
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2020-12-14T17:32:39Z jasom: davros: the problem is allocations are expensive and a simulation (like a game) involves generating sequences of rapidly changing world states; doing that with mutation reduces allocations greatly
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2020-12-14T17:33:50Z davros: there's a middle ground if the data is well organise ,e.g. 'generate a new versino of a collection' (array = 1 allocation for many things)
2020-12-14T17:34:01Z White_Flame: davros: modern parallel machines also all compete for the same memory bus
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2020-12-14T17:34:13Z davros: and the optino of explicitly doublebuffering (previous and next)
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2020-12-14T17:34:45Z White_Flame: as well as shared cache pools
2020-12-14T17:34:49Z davros: update in place is ok but precludes the abiltiy to read anything from the other objects, so you need to have seperated out quite a bit of functionality for that to work in parallel
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2020-12-14T17:35:44Z jasom: davros: pipelining is one solution to this (perhaps that's what you mean by double-buffering?)
2020-12-14T17:36:48Z aeth: davros: Well-written games have two timers going simultaneously. The logic is probably going at 100 FPS (10 ms) or 50 FPS (20 ms) while the rendering is probably going somewhere between 30 FPS (33.3 ms) and 144 FPS (6.9 ms)
2020-12-14T17:36:55Z jmercouris: P I P E L I N I N G
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2020-12-14T17:37:13Z aeth: davros: It doesn't sound like a lot, but computers are fast, so you can do an incredible amount of stuff in a few ms
2020-12-14T17:37:17Z jmercouris: and they are also usually two different threads, not just timers
2020-12-14T17:37:22Z aeth: But... that's assuming you write it in an optimized, mutable way.
2020-12-14T17:37:46Z jmercouris: though I should say, OFTEN enough, theree is a single thread...
2020-12-14T17:38:11Z davros: if you want a seperate render thraed, stratigh away you need to make some sort of immutable copy (or generate some output) for the rendering to be reading.   double buffering could come into this in many ways sure
2020-12-14T17:38:15Z aeth: jmercouris: If it runs on a single thread, and most things you'd want to do will, then multithreading it will just slow it down.
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2020-12-14T17:38:31Z davros: i need to draw a timeline to explain clearly
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2020-12-14T17:38:38Z jmercouris: aeth: I don't think we can say that with certainty
2020-12-14T17:38:43Z aeth: Most game simulations don't really do that much. You'll only have a few moving objects.
2020-12-14T17:38:57Z jmercouris: lots of collision bounding checks depending on the genre
2020-12-14T17:38:59Z aeth: jmercouris: Yes, certainly. Unless your architecture was bad in the first place. It'll add overhead.
2020-12-14T17:39:01Z davros: depends on the game, games can get insanely complex
2020-12-14T17:39:27Z jmercouris: ah the good old days when I was writing game engines
2020-12-14T17:39:31Z jmercouris: so glad those days are behind me
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2020-12-14T17:39:46Z jackdaniel: how many did you write?
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2020-12-14T17:39:53Z jmercouris: 2
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2020-12-14T17:40:18Z aeth: davros: Genres that require complicated CPU computations aren't really popular because they can only run on desktops/laptops, which is just a fraction of the market. A huge fraction, but still a fraction. https://i.redd.it/7e4t7o4irk161.jpg
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2020-12-14T17:40:40Z davros: aeth consoles
2020-12-14T17:40:42Z aeth: Graphics quality can be scaled up/down based on the platform, so games are far more likely to push the graphics to the limit.
2020-12-14T17:40:50Z davros: consoles are quite powerful,and theyre all multicore
2020-12-14T17:41:01Z beach: Maybe there are more game engines than games not only in Common Lisp, but in general?
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2020-12-14T17:41:23Z davros: sure there's more game engines in rust than games in rust
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2020-12-14T17:41:27Z jmercouris: different cores are used for general I/O mostly I believe
2020-12-14T17:41:34Z jmercouris: one core to load assets, one for networking, etc
2020-12-14T17:41:35Z aeth: davros: All of the consoles were quite weak in the CPU department relative to comparable PCs. Or if not necessarily weak, then at least too weird to be worth learning (e.g. PS3)
2020-12-14T17:41:48Z jmercouris: the game loads themselves are still typically not utilizing multiple threads well
2020-12-14T17:41:56Z davros: the fact that consoles went multicore a few gens ago forced the games industry to write parallelisable code
2020-12-14T17:42:30Z davros: xbox 360/ps3 was the transition (3, cores and the weird spus on the ps3)   ps4/xbox-one were  8 core, and now we're onto the ps5
2020-12-14T17:42:41Z aeth: davros: Sure, the Xbox One has an "8-core" CPU, but it's an "8-core" CPU from an architecture family so bad that it almost killed AMD... And I put "8-core" in quotes because AMD lost a lawsuit... They're sort of 8 and sort of 4 cores; they're only 4 cores relative to the FPU, which games absolutely use.
2020-12-14T17:42:52Z aeth: PS4 is identical.
2020-12-14T17:43:01Z davros: 4 cores with 2 threads whatever it is - 8 threads
2020-12-14T17:43:05Z nij: Are there functions or macros that turn a list into an ascii spread sheet? https://bpa.st/UOYA
2020-12-14T17:43:16Z aeth: So, they were 8* cores (* actually 4 for the part that's important for games, and a contemporary Intel quad core would demolish it)
2020-12-14T17:43:28Z davros: point is this is the situation for over 10 years..  cutting edge games went multicore long ago
2020-12-14T17:43:37Z aeth: davros: No, it wasn't even SMT. It was 8 integer units and 4 FPUs. Games use floats way more than ints.
2020-12-14T17:43:38Z phoe: nij: you want to format tables or some sort
2020-12-14T17:43:44Z phoe: hmmmmm
2020-12-14T17:43:48Z aeth: It was a really weird, failure of an architecture.
2020-12-14T17:44:09Z aeth: This new generation is the first generation where powerful PC CPUs are actually in the "basically just PC" consoles.
2020-12-14T17:44:09Z davros: even if its 4 cores.. thats a need for 4 threads
2020-12-14T17:44:12Z phoe gently nudges console talk towards #lispcafe
2020-12-14T17:44:14Z nij: phoe: Oh the term I missed is "table"..
2020-12-14T17:44:37Z phoe: nij: https://40ants.com/lisp-project-of-the-day/2020/05/0084-cl-ascii-table.html
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2020-12-14T17:45:07Z aeth: davros: The thing is, with quad cores you can have a main thread and some helper threads. It's only since 2017 that we're starting to approach manycore, forcing people to actually have a properly-designed 2-to-infinity threading architecture.
2020-12-14T17:45:11Z nij: FANTASTIC.
2020-12-14T17:45:23Z nij: I kept searching term like ascii columns, ascii spread sheets..
2020-12-14T17:45:33Z aeth: (The main thread in a designed-for-quad-cores program is a bottleneck that bottlenecks things by the per-core performance.)
2020-12-14T17:46:13Z davros: aeth quad core is enough for "real" threaded architecture to work well and people (admittedly not everyone) have been doing that since the xbox 360 (with 3=6 threads)
2020-12-14T17:46:34Z nij: Ascii anything is duper lovely.
2020-12-14T17:46:39Z phoe gently nudges aeth and davros towards #lispcafe
2020-12-14T17:46:54Z aeth: Yes, you can have a real threaded architecture on a quad core, but it's harder than having a main thread bottleneck, so what we're seeing is that people didn't start caring about doing things properly until 2017, even though a real architecture can scale down to 4 (or 2) cores and an improper architecture can't really scale up well.
2020-12-14T17:47:04Z davros: we are in #gamedev - we can continue this discussion there
2020-12-14T17:47:12Z phoe: that also works!
2020-12-14T17:47:24Z aeth: davros: well, more #lispgames than anything else
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2020-12-14T18:45:57Z dbotton__: I started work on my first common list system - CLOG - The Common Lisp Omnificent GUI - For local and web apps. https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog
2020-12-14T18:46:15Z dbotton__: So far it is just the round trip websocket communications. I was hoping that maybe someone would look at it and give me some feedback for Lispiness. I’ve only spent so far a couple of days on it, so before investing a lot more time..
2020-12-14T18:47:02Z dbotton__: I wrote a similar library for Ada called gnoga which is used in tons of apps. (Commercial and not)
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2020-12-14T18:51:59Z shka_: dbotton__: weeeeeeee docstrings
2020-12-14T18:52:03Z shka_: <3
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2020-12-14T18:52:57Z shka_: having said that, nobody does formatting like you do in the line 194
2020-12-14T18:53:14Z shka_: actually, maybe i will comment on the github
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2020-12-14T18:53:50Z shka_: eh, i can't do that
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2020-12-14T18:55:28Z shka_: dbotton__: anyway, usually, CL programmers prefer to use defgeneric and defmethod instead of hook style
2020-12-14T18:55:50Z shka_: nowadays at least
2020-12-14T18:56:08Z jackdaniel: they are orthogonal
2020-12-14T18:56:21Z jackdaniel: hooks allow you to register any number of functions for the same kind of object
2020-12-14T18:57:03Z jackdaniel: while generic functions allow you to distinguish different kinds of objects
2020-12-14T18:57:27Z shka_: something in this ilk
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2020-12-14T18:57:41Z phoe: I implemented hooks in terms of methods once, by abusing a multiple-value-or method combination with distinct qualifiers
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2020-12-14T18:58:20Z jackdaniel: how do you add two hooks for the object integer?
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2020-12-14T18:58:43Z phoe: (defmethod my-hook :foo ((object integer)) ...)
2020-12-14T18:58:48Z phoe: (defmethod my-hook :bar ((object integer)) ...)
2020-12-14T18:58:48Z shka_: however, in this specific example, hook is launched on connection id, user can then find connection by id...
2020-12-14T18:58:55Z jackdaniel: uhm
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2020-12-14T18:59:43Z shka_: jackdaniel: or you can use multimethod with eql specializer
2020-12-14T18:59:52Z shka_: kinda overkill though
2020-12-14T19:00:00Z jackdaniel: multimethod with eql specializer?
2020-12-14T19:00:19Z shka_: ((a integer) (mode (eql 'something))
2020-12-14T19:00:22Z shka_: like this
2020-12-14T19:00:34Z shka_: anyway
2020-12-14T19:00:40Z jackdaniel: and how do I call all hooks?
2020-12-14T19:00:51Z jackdaniel: (foo 42 'something-or-something-else) ;?
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2020-12-14T19:01:14Z shka_: or just define everything as :after
2020-12-14T19:01:17Z shka_: anyway!
2020-12-14T19:01:30Z jackdaniel: but you can't because then you have only one method
2020-12-14T19:01:45Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/riichi-evaluator/blob/f978aa240a8cb4a0fb0a6cc457fd10725839779e/src/constants.lisp#L96-L99
2020-12-14T19:01:46Z jackdaniel: phoe's solution seems plausible
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2020-12-14T19:01:53Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/riichi-evaluator/blob/18743d511c3e932b5f8fdf1b21b16791cfe4b7fc/src/hand.lisp#L293-L308
2020-12-14T19:01:55Z White_Flame: dbotton__: cool, that is exactly the type of large project I've been mumbling about starting for a long time :)
2020-12-14T19:02:10Z jackdaniel: but adding after method for integer, and then another after method -- the latter will overwrite the former
2020-12-14T19:02:15Z phoe: in this case, method-combination chained-or executes methods until one of them returns non-nil
2020-12-14T19:02:32Z White_Flame: dbotton__: oh, does this just expose HTML, or is it a generalized UI that happens to have an HTML backend?
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2020-12-14T19:02:40Z shka_: i was mentioning this, because passing id to hook, then you can query connections for that id seems to be awkward ways of doing it
2020-12-14T19:03:03Z jackdaniel still doesn't understand, but let's leave it at that
2020-12-14T19:03:06Z shka_: why not simply pass whole connection object to the handler?
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2020-12-14T19:04:25Z dbotton__: Sorry had to run out back and reading
2020-12-14T19:04:29Z shka_: jackdaniel: notice that in the said project, connect-handler is just a singular function
2020-12-14T19:04:31Z Nilby: I think hooks are still good for some use cases. Mostly when you don't want or need you potential extender to care about what classes you're using. And especially zero arg functions.
2020-12-14T19:04:35Z shka_: jackdaniel: not a list
2020-12-14T19:04:41Z shka_: context matters
2020-12-14T19:05:47Z shka_: in general, i feel like there is a little bit to much, of global variables in the project
2020-12-14T19:05:58Z shka_: this can be a matter of my personal preferences though
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2020-12-14T19:06:42Z dbotton__: White_Flame it will first bind generalized html and then the focus will be on a more Widget style GUI using that binding
2020-12-14T19:06:52Z shka_: as for minor tricks
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2020-12-14T19:07:26Z shka_: one thing that probably could be global are logging streams
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2020-12-14T19:08:17Z shka_: instead of logging to the *standard-output*
2020-12-14T19:08:35Z shka_: you can define your own *logging-output*
2020-12-14T19:08:41Z dbotton__: The GUI that will sit on top of this (including the HTML bindings will be more CLOS oriented
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2020-12-14T19:08:47Z shka_: and by default bind it to the *standard-output*
2020-12-14T19:09:20Z shka_: but this will allow you to redirect output to file, excluding other output to the standard-output
2020-12-14T19:09:32Z shka_: that's how trace works for instance
2020-12-14T19:10:00Z shka_: there is actually *trace-output* in CL standard
2020-12-14T19:10:11Z dbotton__: ahka_ the truth is this entire piece will not be used by the user and will sit behind the actual GUI widgets etc
2020-12-14T19:10:25Z shka_: and it occasionally quite useful to redirect trace to the file
2020-12-14T19:10:47Z dbotton__: I'll take a look at logging is there any libraries currently used for logging?
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2020-12-14T19:12:00Z ck_: there is log4cl
2020-12-14T19:13:50Z shka_: dbotton__: anyway, i love how you put docstrings on everything
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2020-12-14T19:14:25Z shka_: and i don't have all that much to add other then i would rather pack most of this into some kind of objects
2020-12-14T19:14:31Z dbotton__: One of my favorite parts of CL
2020-12-14T19:14:37Z shka_: but this is based
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2020-12-14T19:15:40Z White_Flame: heh, this is my typical form of websocket JS stuff.  Eval whatever message comes in ;)
2020-12-14T19:15:47Z dbotton__: The mgl-pax packages is nice also as it generates DOCs
2020-12-14T19:16:29Z dbotton__: There is work that needs to be done to "secure" things a bit for sure
2020-12-14T19:16:38Z dbotton__: Eval is always a flag
2020-12-14T19:16:44Z dbotton__: Any language
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2020-12-14T19:17:34Z dbotton__: But it works
2020-12-14T19:18:45Z White_Flame: I'm not knocking it
2020-12-14T19:19:36Z dbotton__: I am going to start now working on the user land layer about this, I'll try and clean up more with everyones suggestions
2020-12-14T19:20:28Z White_Flame: what's your plan for actually issuing HTML-level changes from the user perspective?
2020-12-14T19:20:51Z White_Flame: eg, change lisp-side objects and trigger a sync to the client?
2020-12-14T19:20:57Z dbotton__: More that it offers an imperative programming model
2020-12-14T19:21:03Z dbotton__: yes
2020-12-14T19:21:12Z dbotton__: And events etc on the lisp side
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2020-12-14T19:21:57Z dbotton__: So you can say create a few inputs for a from and a button - click the bottom first an event , use the result start something else etc
2020-12-14T19:22:26Z dbotton__: My first app on the ada version was a snake game using the canvas etc
2020-12-14T19:23:42Z dbotton__: http://gnoga.com/ everything is done in ada code even the site - the lisp version will be I think nicer and easier to use
2020-12-14T19:23:45Z luis: Does any of the URI libraries (PURI, QURI, ?) support converting a pathname into a file:// URI?
2020-12-14T19:24:26Z dbotton__: Here is the source of the snake game - http://www.gnoga.com:8889/source
2020-12-14T19:24:35Z dbotton__: Actually running in an online editor
2020-12-14T19:24:41Z dbotton__: Controlled by the code
2020-12-14T19:25:25Z dbotton__: Snake-connection.adb is the main logic
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2020-12-14T19:25:47Z dbotton__: My point is just to get idea of what will be
2020-12-14T19:33:23Z adlai: the bad news is that cl-pdf-parser is unable to parse the PDF 1.7 specification document; the good news is that my refactored conditions are working properly
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2020-12-14T19:37:25Z aeth: is there a verbose print?
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2020-12-14T19:38:51Z jasom: adlai: not sure what the context is, but for simple tasks on PDFs, I wrote this: https://github.com/jasom/pdfparse because cl-pdf-parser wasn't able to handle the PDFs I wanted to parse and when a library doesn't do what you want, writing your own 20% solution from scratch rather than fixing the existing library is the Common Lisp Way(TM)
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2020-12-14T19:41:08Z Nilby: You know that they threw public key cryptography, javascript, and audio and video playing and 3d rendering into PDF.
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2020-12-14T19:41:50Z Nilby: Even the viewers in web browsers can't do all the things.
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2020-12-14T19:44:19Z Nilby: But that said, it's still very cool to use base PDFs from Lisp.
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2020-12-14T19:46:55Z defunkydrummer: Nilby: well, postscript (ps) was already a quasi-fully fledged execution environment... able to do almost anything...
2020-12-14T19:47:14Z aeth: jasom: If you wanted a 100% solution, you'd have to write your own solution from scratch because you'd basically have to bring in a whole web browser style environment.
2020-12-14T19:47:47Z aeth: However, if you did have a web browser, it probably wouldn't be too hard to extend your support to PDF stuff.
2020-12-14T19:48:11Z aeth: It'd basically just take a web browser (full browser, including the rendering engine), a game engine, and a database to handle most of the CL application needs.
2020-12-14T19:48:15Z jasom: aeth: I just wanted something that wouldn't OOM on some PDFs
2020-12-14T19:48:29Z Nilby: defunkydrummer: Right, but PDFs were supposed to be easier than PostScript. PostScript is quite hard to get right. Oh, and also PDFs can include PostScript too.
2020-12-14T19:48:49Z aeth: fonts can include postscript, too, can't they?
2020-12-14T19:49:18Z aeth: So by the time you're done with your application suite, you'll have had to implement JS, Postscript, and probably a bunch of other stuff, too, like sh and Lua.
2020-12-14T19:50:08Z Nilby: Yes, the JS PDF viewers in the like 2-3 browswers engines are quite fairly capable for reading now.
2020-12-14T19:51:22Z Nilby: I'm just mad that there's a ubiquitous important archive format that nearly impossible to fully support.
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2020-12-14T19:52:19Z aeth: I mean, Adobe used to have two uibiquitous and important formats that were nearly impossible to fully support: Flash and PDF.
2020-12-14T19:52:53Z aeth: must be part of their business model...
2020-12-14T19:54:07Z Nilby: It's a weird kind of file format battle tragedy.
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2020-12-14T19:54:18Z aeth: Technically, Adobe would actually have three (counting Photoshop's internal PSD file format), but artists rarely post their sources.
2020-12-14T19:54:34Z aeth: (But when they do, it's a Photoshop file)
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2020-12-14T19:56:08Z jackdaniel: shka_: context matters, but the term "hooks" has a well estabilished meaning
2020-12-14T19:56:34Z Nilby: Yeah. Between Adobe and Microsoft much of the worlds base content is nearly impossible to manipulate well.
2020-12-14T19:56:42Z aeth: Microsoft Office is worse. Technically, I should add "office suite" to the list of things that are large enough projects that their dependencies handle most other entire projects (browser engine, game engine, database), but that's just so painful (basically *only* about compatability with arcane formats) that I doubt anyone will ever attempt it.
2020-12-14T19:58:12Z aeth: Other projects that interest people like Emacs clone or a terminal emulator or whatever are trivial by comparison (although still hard)
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2020-12-14T19:58:24Z Nilby: Indeed.
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2020-12-14T19:59:52Z aeth: Maybe I could throw a CAS on the list as well, but Maxima is written in such a way that its internals aren't very useful for other CL projects afaik. Mainly because it's really, really old, though.
2020-12-14T20:01:30Z Nilby: It's true I wish I could easily use Maxima's stuff. wxMaxima is so cool, but I wish it was all in Lisp.
2020-12-14T20:02:20Z aeth: It doesn't help that iirc a huge chunk of Maxima is written in (probably ancient) Fortran and then compiled (in a poorly optimized way) to CL
2020-12-14T20:03:19Z aeth: The way you'd want to do it if you started from scratch is probably to write a BLAS in CL, which is mostly just porting a permissive licensed BLAS (if there is one) to use CL inline asm on implementations that support it, and using the slow path for the rest of the implementation x architecture grid.
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2020-12-14T20:04:06Z Nilby: And written in mathematicians and physicists coding styles.
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2020-12-14T20:05:28Z lotuseater: Nilby: in one talk of Robert Smith about maths with CL he says "don't look at maxima source" :D
2020-12-14T20:06:27Z Nilby: Yes. I like to, but it's not for the faint of heart.
2020-12-14T20:06:27Z lotuseater: maybe the same goes for ROOT, but it seems to work well
2020-12-14T20:07:12Z lotuseater: I don't like the not expressive names in maxima, it could improve doing that like Mathematica (just imo)
2020-12-14T20:07:38Z lotuseater: but then no maxima code written will work
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2020-12-14T20:10:25Z Nilby: One of my favorite *old* Lisp code is SHRDLU. It's sometimes written almost in a Haskell style. When I first read it I was like "WT-holy-F is this??" Total nonsense. Now I can read it and see it's fairly brilliant.
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2020-12-14T20:10:56Z lotuseater: oooh yes i like the dialogue in gödel escher bach with SHRDLU
2020-12-14T20:11:10Z lotuseater: do you have a link?
2020-12-14T20:11:30Z White_Flame: it really helps to read the phd thesis along with the shrdlu source code, at least to begin understanding it
2020-12-14T20:11:47Z lotuseater: maybe i'll finally get then how to do ai in CL ._.
2020-12-14T20:11:51Z White_Flame: https://github.com/stuartpb/shrdlu
2020-12-14T20:12:03Z White_Flame: shrdlu is not really extensible
2020-12-14T20:12:05Z lotuseater: what was the original dialect?
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2020-12-14T20:12:38Z White_Flame: old
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2020-12-14T20:13:30Z White_Flame: maclisp according to that github link
2020-12-14T20:13:53Z White_Flame: enjoy your fexprs
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2020-12-14T20:14:41Z lotuseater: hmm
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2020-12-14T20:15:42Z Nilby is looking for his shrdlu that works in CL.
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2020-12-14T20:17:34Z adlai: jasom: you just made me read CL code that has defmethod with self as an argument name
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2020-12-14T20:17:42Z White_Flame: the original source is almost like assembly code.  I'm sure it could be rewritten to less than 1/10th the size in modern style
2020-12-14T20:17:54Z adlai is angered
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2020-12-14T20:18:41Z lotuseater: yes it reads not very condense
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2020-12-14T20:19:12Z White_Flame: old CL code is extremely mutating to avoid blowing memory on 70s hardware
2020-12-14T20:19:36Z White_Flame: erm, 1960s :-P
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2020-12-14T20:21:18Z White_Flame: s/CL/Lisp/
2020-12-14T20:22:39Z waleee-cl: is there anyone using parinfer-rust-mode in emacs?
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2020-12-14T20:22:45Z daphnis: what do you do when emacs indents badly; just correct it manually and avoid auto-indenting?  e.g. the first form in Practical p. 330 is illogically indented by emacs.
2020-12-14T20:22:56Z phoe: daphnis: which chapter is that?
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2020-12-14T20:23:04Z daphnis: parsing binary files
2020-12-14T20:23:27Z phoe: defun read-u2?
2020-12-14T20:23:33Z dbotton__: (First thing I do is assume I am wrong not emacs :)
2020-12-14T20:23:35Z White_Flame: indentation can also change if for instance the code uses a macro, but the macro hasn't been loaded in yet
2020-12-14T20:23:39Z daphnis: (define-binary-type iso-88 .....
2020-12-14T20:23:40Z phoe: which form do you mean?
2020-12-14T20:24:06Z phoe: oh! have you called DEFMACRO DEFINE-BINARY-TYPE?
2020-12-14T20:24:16Z daphnis: hm, no
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2020-12-14T20:24:56Z White_Flame: SLIME knows about the &body field in macros and indents them as code instead of data
2020-12-14T20:25:00Z daphnis: now i have, indentation is unchanged
2020-12-14T20:25:35Z daphnis: the (let in the third line is aligned with the (in in the 2nd
2020-12-14T20:26:00Z Nilby: Yes, I just correct it and avoid. Emacs can never duplicate the indenting artistry you can achive with multiple-cursor mode.
2020-12-14T20:26:19Z phoe: oh, like that!
2020-12-14T20:26:21Z phoe: yes, I see
2020-12-14T20:26:48Z White_Flame: daphnis: yep, there's no way for slime to know the intent here
2020-12-14T20:27:07Z White_Flame: so it makes some guesses
2020-12-14T20:27:07Z Nilby: but, yeah, always use &body when you want that.
2020-12-14T20:27:29Z White_Flame: this is nested underneat macro parameters, though
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2020-12-14T20:27:53Z phoe: let me check if trivial-indent can fix this
2020-12-14T20:27:56Z White_Flame: nested forms inside "&body spec)"
2020-12-14T20:29:16Z _death: there is some broken indentation in default slime.. try for example (incf place RET
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2020-12-14T20:30:47Z phoe: !
2020-12-14T20:30:50Z phoe: (trivial-indent:define-indentation define-binary-type (4 4 &rest (&whole 2 4 4 &body)))
2020-12-14T20:30:54Z phoe: this thing seems to kinda work
2020-12-14T20:31:16Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2193#2193
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2020-12-14T20:38:49Z daphnis: phoe: thanks!
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2020-12-14T20:40:25Z phoe: trivial-indentation needs to get a proper manual someday
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2020-12-14T20:54:23Z White_Flame: Nilby: ever find your CL SHRDLU?
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2020-12-14T20:58:00Z Nilby: I did. But it failed to load, and I'm trying to avoid getting lost for days in the past again. I should post it someday. I think I started with this:  https://github.com/tsgouros/www-shrdlu.git
2020-12-14T20:58:40Z White_Flame: yeah, I found that one
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2020-12-14T20:59:12Z White_Flame: if I were to throw my hand into Yet Another SHRDLU Resurrection, I'd just start from first principles from the thesis and not from the code
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2020-12-14T21:00:16Z Nilby: Yes. My interest was mostly historical not so much as practical.
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2020-12-14T21:02:10Z Nilby: Someday I'll feel the clock ticking slowly enough to finish it.
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2020-12-14T21:04:53Z Nilby: It's like museum code.
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2020-12-14T21:59:06Z jasom: adlai: you're welcome :D
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2020-12-14T22:04:20Z jasom: It also has a tagbody inside of a block, so it was written before I knew that prog has an implicit tagbody
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2020-12-14T22:09:04Z Xach: jasom: i just learned that lesson today!
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2020-12-14T22:09:16Z Xach: what a coincidence
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2020-12-14T22:25:32Z nij: Is using data as config a common practice among LISPers?
2020-12-14T22:26:09Z jasom: nij: configuration is data, can you clarify what you mean?
2020-12-14T22:27:15Z nij: Hmm.. instead of using formats like .YAML, why not just use .LISP?
2020-12-14T22:27:52Z jasom: ah, as in use a source-file as configuration?  It's definitely a thing.
2020-12-14T22:28:07Z nij: Something like this: '("Monday" "Upper" ("Push-ups 15" "Pull-up 1" "Push-ups 15" "Pull-up 1"))
2020-12-14T22:28:16Z nij: jasom: anything
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2020-12-14T22:29:33Z jasom: nij: I've seen it like (defparameter *some-config-option* some-value) and the configuration file loaded with cl:load and I've also seen it like ((:some-config-option . some-value)) and the configuration file loaded with cl:read
2020-12-14T22:29:37Z nij: I wonder why it isn't common practice. Like.. is it error-prone?
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2020-12-14T22:29:40Z jasom: nij: there's probably other was its done as well.
2020-12-14T22:30:54Z jasom: I do it that way unless someone else is going to configure the file; people unused to lisp are more likely to be comfortable editing a .yaml or .json file (and their editor is more likely to be configured to help them do so)
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2020-12-14T22:34:15Z badcfe: is there an "international standard" for lisp?  maybe X3J13/94-101R equals CLT2 but is ansi only.  is ISLISP the thing, but there's no "public domain" implementations?
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2020-12-14T22:36:55Z no-defun-allowed: Well, ISLISP isn't Common Lisp.
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2020-12-14T22:37:25Z badcfe: no-defun-allowed: but is it the closest one, with an international standard?
2020-12-14T22:37:29Z jasom: I don't think X3.226 was ever ISO standardized
2020-12-14T22:37:43Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know how close ISLISP is to Common Lisp, but my guess is it is quite different.
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2020-12-14T22:39:04Z badcfe: i came across this which seems really nice
2020-12-14T22:39:05Z badcfe: https://franz.com/support/documentation/cl-ansi-standard-draft-w-sidebar.pdf
2020-12-14T22:39:26Z badcfe: but thats ansi common lisp i see
2020-12-14T22:39:38Z jasom: ISLISP is pretty close to a subset of common lisp
2020-12-14T22:39:56Z badcfe: oh, that sounds good then.
2020-12-14T22:40:12Z edgar-rft: The original idea of the ANSI folks was to include Europe and Japan into the specification process but the ARPA-net was too slow for that, so I think the ANSI spec ist the only official specification until today.
2020-12-14T22:40:16Z jasom: though I can't for the life of me remember if it's lisp-1 or lisp2
2020-12-14T22:40:18Z badcfe: i mean, as a newb i could learn it, and then be fine in CL as well
2020-12-14T22:40:55Z jasom: badcfe: I would recommend learning common lisp instead; islisp is a smaller community than CL, and it's not like the CL community is large
2020-12-14T22:41:00Z badcfe: "arpa net was too slow for that" ?
2020-12-14T22:42:02Z edgar-rft: badcfe: the email communication took too long, Kent Pitman wrote up the details somewhere in his homepage
2020-12-14T22:43:09Z badcfe: is CL community small because learning to think in it you become a compiler writer for other languages to get away from the parenths and then resulting in popularity and bringing in nice ideas to those other languages?
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2020-12-14T22:44:07Z no-defun-allowed: What the fuck?
2020-12-14T22:44:09Z Xach: badcfe: no
2020-12-14T22:44:19Z badcfe: why does not ieee iso or anyone raise ansi spec up to international standard instead of this ISLISP thing?
2020-12-14T22:44:31Z jasom: badcfe: who will pay for it?
2020-12-14T22:44:58Z no-defun-allowed: Does it really matter if it's an ANSI standard or an ISO standard?
2020-12-14T22:44:59Z Xach: badcfe: ANSI Common Lisp exists because a big customer demanded it. there is no big customer in sight to do it these days.
2020-12-14T22:45:00Z White_Flame: besides, we're in a post-standards world for the most part (love it or hate it)
2020-12-14T22:45:10Z badcfe: they can just trust ansi and fetch the pdf and stamp it
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2020-12-14T22:46:28Z White_Flame: regarding size of the community, a lot of that has to do with commercializing the community as well
2020-12-14T22:46:54Z Alfr: badcfe, why are you looking for a lisp w/ international standard?
2020-12-14T22:46:56Z badcfe: i am trying to understand why lisp is not more 'endoursed' (or term like that)
2020-12-14T22:47:01Z White_Flame: lisp really offers developer empowerment directly, so you don't have the "support groups" of people trying to get around limitations as much as other langs do, and that activity drives engagement
2020-12-14T22:47:34Z Xach: badcfe: many reasons
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2020-12-14T22:48:12Z badcfe: White_Flame: right, maybe 'popular' languages as measured by frusts in stackoverflow is not the best measure
2020-12-14T22:48:40Z badcfe: and maybe to have an ansi spec should be good enough.
2020-12-14T22:48:56Z White_Flame: having a spec at all is heads and shoulders above many other languages
2020-12-14T22:49:11Z White_Flame: even disregarding standards bodies
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2020-12-14T22:49:47Z badcfe: White_Flame: "commercializing teh community" ?
2020-12-14T22:49:52Z White_Flame: and again, good enough for what?
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2020-12-14T22:50:21Z edgar-rft: languages are only popular when they are used by the pope
2020-12-14T22:50:28Z White_Flame: sure, running businesses around supporting language dev groups, with websites, instruction, libraries, etc
2020-12-14T22:50:36Z badcfe: good enough for having similar compiler implementations around, for the language to be practical and valuable to know
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2020-12-14T22:50:57Z badcfe: edgar-rft: hence pope-ular
2020-12-14T22:51:05Z Nilby: I think the Lisp community and programming communties in general are wise emough not to get stupid semi-political organizations involved in designing languages. And even though Common Lisp is a great achievement, designing by committee isn't so good.
2020-12-14T22:51:06Z White_Flame: well, I think it already met that criteria
2020-12-14T22:51:13Z jasom: badcfe: I mean Python lacks even an ANSI standard, which probably explains why nobody uses it
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2020-12-14T22:51:54Z White_Flame: does python not even have a written standard, besides a reference implementation?
2020-12-14T22:52:23Z phoe: not really, AFAIR
2020-12-14T22:52:26Z badcfe: jasom: you proove having standard is not important.  okay.
2020-12-14T22:52:27Z jasom: White_Flame: it has reference documentation; whether or not that is sufficient to be called a "standard" is an open question.
2020-12-14T22:53:22Z Nilby: e.g. ECMAscript seem rather pointless and isn't defacto Javascript
2020-12-14T22:53:24Z jasom: White_Flame: anything not mentioned in the reference documentation is de-facto decided by the reference implementation, so if you were to write a novel implementation that conforms to the reference documentation, but differs from the reference implementation, would it be a Python implementation?
2020-12-14T22:53:30Z White_Flame: badcfe: having a standard is beneficial.  but most people seem to skip that, as is common with programmers and anything prose :-P
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2020-12-14T22:54:10Z badcfe: if you write something in lisp teh thing is generally going to be faster than if you do the thing in python right?  even pypy, cython, or whatever
2020-12-14T22:54:12Z White_Flame: (comments, documentation, actually reading up on things, etc)
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2020-12-14T22:54:32Z White_Flame: python is generally a slow-to-execute language
2020-12-14T22:54:37Z badcfe: White_Flame: yeah, except .. programming is prose right
2020-12-14T22:54:43Z White_Flame: no
2020-12-14T22:54:59Z no-defun-allowed: There are a few things that are hard to compile in Python, but usually PyPy does pretty well at compiling it.
2020-12-14T22:55:00Z jasom: conversely there was a 6 year period in which there was an ALGOL 68 standard, but no conforming implementations
2020-12-14T22:55:33Z no-defun-allowed: However, I think PyPy uses type information gathered at runtime, but (all?) Common Lisp implementations rely on the programmer to provide type declarations if they need to specialize.
2020-12-14T22:55:33Z badcfe: jasom: you have another good point about standard ther.
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2020-12-14T22:56:12Z Nilby: or programming is functioning poetry ? or incomprehensible scratches ?
2020-12-14T22:56:24Z jasom: no-defun-allowed: sbcl definitely does type-inference based optimizations, particularly around numeric functions
2020-12-14T22:56:26Z White_Flame: it's closer to mathematical representation
2020-12-14T22:56:45Z White_Flame: it's a formal representation, not a human language
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2020-12-14T22:57:14Z no-defun-allowed: jasom: Yes, but that is still determined at compile-time. Compare to Smalltalk or Self (or Java even), where code is specialized at runtime.
2020-12-14T22:57:57Z jasom: no-defun-allowed: IIRC There was some experimenting of donig that with method-invocations in sbcl, not sure if it's in the current release or not
2020-12-14T22:58:09Z edgar-rft: Nilby: "programming is like incomprehensible poetry" will become my favourite idiom of the day :-)
2020-12-14T22:58:19Z Nilby: :D
2020-12-14T22:58:21Z jasom: but it was fairly straightforward caching of method lookups, nothing fancy like JIT specialization IIRC
2020-12-14T22:58:57Z no-defun-allowed: Ah yes.
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2020-12-14T23:07:32Z defunkydrummer: no-defun-allowed: in many cases PyPy doesn't really do a dramatic speedup, Python still ends up being a slow platform
2020-12-14T23:08:17Z no-defun-allowed: defunkydrummer: I recall a decent speedup on a few programs. Not quite close to Lisp (or C even), but still a large speedup nonetheless.
2020-12-14T23:08:28Z defunkydrummer: no-defun-allowed: only Cython brings real speed to Python, but Cython isn't really 100% python language, and there is no compatibility with the popular libraries
2020-12-14T23:09:10Z edgar-rft: badcfe: The good thing of having a standard is that the language doesn't change every other year. In physics or medicine I have maintainance contracts over ten or twenty years and I wouldn't want to maintain C code over such a long time.
2020-12-14T23:09:10Z edgar-rft: The disadvantage of having a "non-changing" language is that it oftenn needs some work to deal with more modern things like threads or distributed network computing.
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2020-12-14T23:12:00Z badcfe: edgar-rft: but i would guess lisp (you mention network) is quite good for a io event loop with protocol handlers doing some kinds of continuations
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2020-12-14T23:13:28Z jasom: edgar-rft: I've seen 99 year support contracts based on C; the compiler in question will support the version C it was based upon for that long.
2020-12-14T23:13:47Z badcfe: White_Flame: 'it's a formal representation, not a human language' refers to lisp?
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2020-12-14T23:15:21Z edgar-rft: jasom: of course *you* are free to do whatever you want, but maybe *I* wouldn't do the same :-)
2020-12-14T23:16:22Z edgar-rft: jasom: what if your old C compiler doesn't work anymore after an OS update?
2020-12-14T23:17:44Z jasom: edgar-rft: pretty sure the compiler vendor was included in the contract
2020-12-14T23:18:47Z Nilby: Eventually I think Common Lisp will have enough defacto extensions, like unicode, PLN, getenv, run-program, etc. which every implementation already supports, that it'll just be useful write them all up.
2020-12-14T23:18:53Z jasom: plus I have code I wrote that is older than the C ANSI standard that most compilers will still compile with the correct flags.
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2020-12-14T23:20:47Z edgar-rft: jasom: I din't mean that it's impossible, I only said that *I* wouldn't want to do it, maybe for just the simple reasom that I'm a complete idiot.
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2020-12-14T23:22:17Z jasom: I get your point; I just think C was a poor example given that Python is actually this terrible.  I have a build-system that some components won't work with anything newer than 2.3 and other components require 2.7; it's terrible.
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2020-12-14T23:24:26Z edgar-rft: I agree that there are things in life that are even more terrible than C :-)
2020-12-14T23:24:52Z oni-on-ion: i like C =)
2020-12-14T23:25:10Z oni-on-ion: but grew up on it; mother tongue.
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2020-12-14T23:31:37Z edgar-rft: jasom: Python made Adam and Eve getting banned from paradise.
2020-12-14T23:32:12Z edgar-rft: okay, this definitely going -> #lispcafe :-)
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2020-12-14T23:39:28Z adlai: badcfe: there are a few hidden assumptions at play when you try to answer a question like that
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2020-12-15T00:14:20Z oni-on-ion: jackdaniel, https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/  ?
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2020-12-15T00:27:52Z badcfe: am i wrong in assuming i can become fluent in common lisp, and go ahead and write whatever program in common lisp?  someone mentioned it was more of a methematical thingy, not for humans ...
2020-12-15T00:28:10Z phoe: what
2020-12-15T00:28:19Z jasom: badcfe: yes, you can go ahead and write whatever program in common lisp
2020-12-15T00:28:20Z phoe: Lisp is a language for humans
2020-12-15T00:28:32Z phoe: and a pretty nice and useful and interactive one, to add.
2020-12-15T00:28:37Z oni-on-ion: it is much more for humans than most other programming languages, for sure.
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2020-12-15T00:28:54Z oni-on-ion: (ironically one of the reasons it is not my #1)
2020-12-15T00:28:57Z badcfe: the restart facility just bothers me, because i dont appretiate its value.
2020-12-15T00:29:14Z phoe: don't use it, then
2020-12-15T00:29:34Z phoe: you might appreciate it e.g. when you end up in the debugger but don't want to kill the lisp process
2020-12-15T00:29:51Z phoe: or when you want to gracefully recover from some error situation without breaking it altogether.
2020-12-15T00:30:06Z badcfe: but it's extremely interesting, and surprising this kind of thing doesnt exist in other langs/envs
2020-12-15T00:30:38Z phoe: they don't find much value in interactive restarting facilities because they usually have no interactivity baked into the language
2020-12-15T00:30:41Z badcfe: i just dont have it in my workflow or something like that
2020-12-15T00:30:48Z phoe: same with programmatic recovery actions.
2020-12-15T00:31:16Z phoe: usually it's "oh shit, we're dead, throw an exception and hope something catches it"
2020-12-15T00:31:17Z badcfe: so it was impossible to inherit this nice restart concept in other langs/envs?
2020-12-15T00:31:30Z phoe: badcfe: it's possible to implement it in other languages as a library
2020-12-15T00:31:44Z phoe: see e.g. https://github.com/phoe-trash/cafe-latte - Java
2020-12-15T00:31:53Z badcfe: can i programatically restart in clisp?
2020-12-15T00:32:01Z phoe: you mean the CLISP implementation?
2020-12-15T00:32:11Z phoe: uh, sure? it implements common lisp, so it has restarts too
2020-12-15T00:32:13Z badcfe: no.  i meant common lisp
2020-12-15T00:32:18Z phoe: oh, that's a different thing
2020-12-15T00:32:19Z phoe: yes
2020-12-15T00:32:31Z phoe: you can use functions COMPUTE-RESTARTS and FIND-RESTART to grab a hold of a restart object
2020-12-15T00:32:39Z badcfe: phoe: you refer to gnu with clisp right?
2020-12-15T00:32:48Z phoe: and then use INVOKE-RESTART or INVOKE-RESTART-INTERACTIVELY to call it
2020-12-15T00:32:57Z phoe: badcfe: yes, I refer to the GNU CLISP implementation when I think "CLISP"
2020-12-15T00:33:06Z phoe: CLISP is not a good acronym for Common Lisp though; CL is better.
2020-12-15T00:33:37Z badcfe: is programatic restart the way to go in c-lisp, as kind of an exception handling, but where the throw-site defines teh action
2020-12-15T00:33:56Z badcfe: i'll use CL to refer to common lisp from now on
2020-12-15T00:34:09Z phoe: I need to run to sleep now
2020-12-15T00:34:20Z phoe: so I can't provide in-depth answers
2020-12-15T00:34:46Z badcfe: don't run to hard .. it might take away potential for good sleep
2020-12-15T00:34:46Z phoe: if you're fine with grabbing a book, I can point you towards "The Common Lisp Condition System" that describes restarts as well as conditions and handlers
2020-12-15T00:34:51Z phoe: :D
2020-12-15T00:34:58Z phoe: ;; warning: the book is by me, so this is a shameless plug
2020-12-15T00:35:10Z badcfe: i saw this link which looked nice https://franz.com/support/documentation/cl-ansi-standard-draft-w-sidebar.pdf
2020-12-15T00:35:26Z badcfe: point me to your book please
2020-12-15T00:35:33Z phoe: https://www.apress.com/us/book/9781484261330
2020-12-15T00:35:46Z badcfe: thank you.  and have a good sleep
2020-12-15T00:35:48Z phoe: the standard is OK, but it doesn't tell you about how it's implemented or what are its common use cases
2020-12-15T00:35:55Z phoe: that's where I tried to fill the void.
2020-12-15T00:36:00Z phoe waves, goes for the night
2020-12-15T00:36:19Z badcfe: i find that perspective very interesting to me as well.
2020-12-15T00:36:32Z badcfe: ciao
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2020-12-15T00:43:29Z edgar-rft: phoe: your answers will be as deep as your sleep :-)
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2020-12-15T00:44:54Z edgar-rft: badcfe: the standard link for "Howto Get Started with Common Lisp" -> https://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started
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2020-12-15T01:21:16Z nij: I have a common lisp file that is growing, and getting messier. I don't mean to package it, but have a need to separate the codes into different files. What's the next step I should look into? Should I start learning how to use ASD?
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2020-12-15T01:22:59Z no-defun-allowed: Usually you have files in packages, then packages in systems. But then you load all the files with an ASDF system.
2020-12-15T01:24:23Z nij: Hm! OK It seems the right time for me to know all these things anyway: a file, a package, a file, and an ASDF system. I know where to look into these :) Thanks!!!
2020-12-15T01:27:24Z badcfe: the set of function in onlisp seems practical to have.  is there a package that has this, or only his source which was extracted from the latix and has a copiright notice that makes it feel like i should not fix up the mentioned problems with CTL1 and redefinitions
2020-12-15T01:28:24Z nij: Any hope to deal with common lisp smoothly without using emacs? Just curious as my friend is asking.
2020-12-15T01:28:32Z badcfe: s/function/lisp functions and macros/
2020-12-15T01:28:42Z no-defun-allowed: There's SLIMV for Vim and something for Atom too.
2020-12-15T01:29:27Z nij: Nice. I need to brainwash him to use vim first anyways.
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2020-12-15T01:31:15Z PuercoPop: nij: yeah, defining a system sounds like a good idea. You can  start with $ echo '(defsystem "foo" :components ((:file "foo")))' > foo.asd
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2020-12-15T01:58:43Z entre-parenteses: nlj: If you're planning to brainwash him to use Vim anyways, you could always try to get him hooked on Spacemacs - https://www.spacemacs.org/
2020-12-15T01:59:16Z entre-parenteses: * nij:
2020-12-15T02:00:19Z entre-parenteses: Then you'd get him hooked on Emacs *and* Vim ;D
2020-12-15T02:03:03Z badcfe: is this spacemacs built on emacs and has the elisp inside?
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2020-12-15T02:03:36Z badcfe: is there a hello world lisp system containing asd and all, kind of a template project to start with?
2020-12-15T02:04:00Z badcfe: also, i wonder how to kind of "make" the system into an executable.
2020-12-15T02:04:23Z badcfe: found this but its dated so no asdf there .. http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/ltkdoc/node51.html
2020-12-15T02:04:57Z entre-parenteses: badcfe: The way I think about it, Spacemacs is a lot of configuration on top of emacs (so, yes, it's elisp).
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2020-12-15T02:06:04Z entre-parenteses: I may be wrong but I think ASDF generally comes with many implementations - I know it comes with SBCL, at least.
2020-12-15T02:06:49Z entre-parenteses: To turn systems into executables, I've used roswell before. https://github.com/roswell/roswell
2020-12-15T02:07:15Z entre-parenteses: But I think ASDF can do this, too (although I haven't done it, myself).
2020-12-15T02:08:44Z Bike: man
2020-12-15T02:12:52Z no-defun-allowed: On SBCL, you can run (save-lisp-and-die "program" :executable t :toplevel #'program:main)
2020-12-15T02:13:40Z solideogloria[m]: :compression t for binary compression
2020-12-15T02:14:14Z curiouscain: ASDF can create executables, here's an asd file from a project of mine. Look at the three lines starting at line 6: https://paste.sr.ht/~cain/d39f6b89d2fa733326af86ba67962d031ffbd5b4
2020-12-15T02:14:41Z badcfe: wow in sbcl i did (ql:quickload :ltk) and then (in-package :ltk) and then i can program all these GUI things, nice
2020-12-15T02:14:52Z curiouscain: I think (asdf:make) will trigger it, but I can't remember
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2020-12-15T02:15:08Z badcfe: my problem is, if i learn this, then snap! and it becomes unmaintained and unavailable
2020-12-15T02:16:07Z lotuseater: badcfe: then you have a way better chance (and maybe more awesome experience) with McCLIM
2020-12-15T02:16:40Z badcfe: but it will go away again faster than something based on TK i would think
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2020-12-15T02:17:06Z lotuseater: ehm no, McCLIM not
2020-12-15T02:17:07Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think Tk is going away soon.
2020-12-15T02:17:39Z badcfe: tk is decent.  i dont like flies that snapps hype and then dies
2020-12-15T02:17:51Z solideogloria[m]: I just use cl-cffi-gtk
2020-12-15T02:18:12Z defunkydrummer: no-defun-allowed: tk got a new life lease thanks to Python (TkInter). It is also rather easy to use.
2020-12-15T02:18:18Z badcfe: cffi to gtk sounds like a decent approach
2020-12-15T02:18:19Z defunkydrummer: I like LTK.
2020-12-15T02:18:34Z defunkydrummer: LTK works fine and it's multiplatform
2020-12-15T02:18:41Z defunkydrummer: fine for simple UIs
2020-12-15T02:18:42Z badcfe: i had some fun with tcltk way back
2020-12-15T02:18:57Z badcfe: and also py tkinter yes
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2020-12-15T02:19:54Z badcfe: ltk seems good, but should i take last update 2006 as a bad sign.  or not
2020-12-15T02:20:33Z no-defun-allowed: Again, Tk isn't going anywhere, so there's no reason for it to be bad.
2020-12-15T02:20:38Z badcfe: maybe bindings to ltk is not problematic, and this package will stay around.  i dont even know about this quicklisp ecosystem, im not confident to rely on these things.
2020-12-15T02:20:53Z lotuseater: badcfe: I'm annoying I know https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/
2020-12-15T02:21:44Z badcfe: lotuseater: i must say it seems decent
2020-12-15T02:22:00Z lotuseater: ok
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2020-12-15T02:22:48Z lotuseater: can someone explain to me in simple words what an interface manager advances from just doing guis?
2020-12-15T02:23:03Z badcfe: are there some cairo kind of thing for drawing (i am abs newb in the lisp world)
2020-12-15T02:23:16Z solideogloria[m]: there is cairo itself
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2020-12-15T02:23:32Z badcfe: solideogloria[m]: via ffi ?
2020-12-15T02:23:38Z solideogloria[m]: yeah
2020-12-15T02:23:45Z solideogloria[m]: http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-gtk/gtk-tutorial.html
2020-12-15T02:23:52Z lotuseater: badcfe: don't worry, there is so much stuff
2020-12-15T02:23:56Z solideogloria[m]: it has some on the cairo stuff
2020-12-15T02:24:27Z defunkydrummer: badcfe: bad sign, why?
2020-12-15T02:24:41Z defunkydrummer: badcfe: tk hasn't changed and lisp neither
2020-12-15T02:25:24Z defunkydrummer: badcfe: and besides that, it has been maintained on github, I'm certain last commit isn't that old, perhaps 2018
2020-12-15T02:25:31Z badcfe: defunkydrummer: but how can i be confident some module that i get my hands on through this quicklisp today will be available forward
2020-12-15T02:26:18Z solideogloria[m]: depends on the module
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2020-12-15T02:26:25Z badcfe: defunkydrummer: maybe with lisp its easier to grab some lisp system and it will work without a bunch of various broken system deps and things
2020-12-15T02:26:25Z solideogloria[m]: tk isn't going to go away because of python
2020-12-15T02:26:33Z curiouscain: Unless it fails to compile or is devoid of features, I think that's not a worry you really need to have
2020-12-15T02:27:19Z lotuseater: badcfe: phew one can really tell that you are a newbie :)
2020-12-15T02:27:43Z defunkydrummer: badcfe: i don't understand your concerns. How is this different to using an external dependency on any other language?
2020-12-15T02:27:58Z defunkydrummer: lotuseater: let's be kind to newbies
2020-12-15T02:28:13Z lotuseater: defunkydrummer: it was meant very kind!
2020-12-15T02:28:42Z badcfe: wow, that cl-cffi-gtk has WAY more contents and deps than the ltk
2020-12-15T02:29:14Z solideogloria[m]: well it is gtk at the end of the day which is huge of itself
2020-12-15T02:29:22Z solideogloria[m]:  * well it is gtk at the end of the day which is huge
2020-12-15T02:31:51Z badcfe: (defcstruct g-object-class ... wow this is advanced stuff
2020-12-15T02:32:16Z solideogloria[m]: glib stuff
2020-12-15T02:32:20Z badcfe: really wrapping gtk decently.  and it has some bordeaux threads thing inside there?
2020-12-15T02:33:17Z solideogloria[m]: glib has its own threading stuff iirc
2020-12-15T02:33:54Z badcfe: so i'm guessing lisp structures are used as builders of the gobjects and structures in the gui event loop here, and on callbacks there are lisp accessors to the gui engine things
2020-12-15T02:34:27Z solideogloria[m]: to gtk libraries, yes
2020-12-15T02:34:38Z solideogloria[m]: it's cffi
2020-12-15T02:34:41Z badcfe: so lisp is kind of arm-waving at, and getting shadows from, the gui engine including those gobjects and all
2020-12-15T02:34:53Z solideogloria[m]: kind of, yes
2020-12-15T02:34:58Z badcfe: facinating.  i am positively surprised.
2020-12-15T02:35:22Z badcfe: this could be a motivator to play a little more with lisp here.  have fun
2020-12-15T02:35:47Z lotuseater: you have this with CFFI in general :)
2020-12-15T02:36:04Z badcfe: s/have fun/to have fun exploring this and building some neat thing as a side effect/
2020-12-15T02:36:36Z solideogloria[m]: yeah, its the same thing for libaries using CFFI
2020-12-15T02:37:01Z badcfe: is there some hello world around?  kind of a template project i could start with?
2020-12-15T02:37:04Z solideogloria[m]: interfacing with the C libraries with lisp and giving bindings for their respective stuff in C
2020-12-15T02:37:15Z solideogloria[m]: <badcfe "is there some hello world around"> http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-gtk/gtk-tutorial.html#GTK+_and_Cairo
2020-12-15T02:37:18Z solideogloria[m]: > <@freenode_badcfe:matrix.org> is there some hello world around?  kind of a template project i could start with?
2020-12-15T02:37:18Z solideogloria[m]:  * http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-gtk/gtk-tutorial.html
2020-12-15T02:37:21Z solideogloria[m]: its all in here
2020-12-15T02:37:30Z badcfe: (i still wonder if its common to build an executable in lisp, i now use sbcl)
2020-12-15T02:37:48Z solideogloria[m]: you build an executable only when you release
2020-12-15T02:37:57Z solideogloria[m]: till the, you test with the repl itself
2020-12-15T02:38:01Z solideogloria[m]:  * till then, you test with the repl itself
2020-12-15T02:38:24Z lotuseater: there is also this about CFFI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5CnYlG7sc8
2020-12-15T02:38:25Z solideogloria[m]: Example 1.2 btw badcfe
2020-12-15T02:39:14Z solideogloria[m] sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/GDMtYnwTMhYxdFktBecuLjYC/message.txt >
2020-12-15T02:39:23Z solideogloria[m]: just substitute asdf:load-system with ql:quickload
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2020-12-15T02:43:09Z badcfe: debugger invoked on a SB-INT:SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR in thread
2020-12-15T02:43:09Z badcfe: #<THREAD "cl-cffi-gtk main thread" RUNNING {1007237E83}>:
2020-12-15T02:43:09Z badcfe:   invalid number of arguments: 2
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2020-12-15T02:44:00Z solideogloria[m]: are you using SLIME ?
2020-12-15T02:44:09Z badcfe: hmm.  i tried the A simple application. example, and (in-package :gtk) and tehn (simple-application)
2020-12-15T02:44:37Z solideogloria[m]: :gtk-tutorial, :gtk is already another package
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2020-12-15T02:46:30Z solideogloria[m]: if you are using slime, you have to do something different
2020-12-15T02:46:31Z badcfe: okay i got that window up.  good
2020-12-15T02:46:50Z solideogloria[m]: nice to hear :)
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2020-12-15T02:47:24Z solideogloria[m]: I remember that I had to do something to get it working on SLIME, can't recall what exactly
2020-12-15T02:47:34Z solideogloria[m]: when I used to use SLIME
2020-12-15T02:47:54Z badcfe: but when i try to run that gtk_class_gtk-application i get above err, and seems to have some thread due to what i observe in my job control there
2020-12-15T02:48:15Z badcfe: i use rlwrap sbcl
2020-12-15T02:48:33Z badcfe:  8 - /
2020-12-15T02:48:36Z defunkydrummer: badcfe: no, it's not common
2020-12-15T02:49:37Z solideogloria[m]: <badcfe "but when i try to run that gtk_c"> gtk_class_gtk-application from the tutorial ?
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2020-12-15T02:50:21Z badcfe: http://www.crategus.com/books/cl-cffi-gtk/pages/gtk_class_gtk-application.html
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2020-12-15T02:54:08Z PuercoPop: badcfe: for a template there is https://github.com/xach/quickproject or https://github.com/guicho271828/eazy-project
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2020-12-15T02:59:51Z solideogloria[m]: its (g-application-run app argc argv) I think
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2020-12-15T03:00:26Z solideogloria[m]: it needs an argc
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2020-12-15T03:36:22Z ldbeth: good morning
2020-12-15T03:36:32Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldbeth.
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2020-12-15T03:46:47Z ldbeth: can I use #'eq hash table if keys are assumed to be fixnum?
2020-12-15T03:47:02Z no-defun-allowed: You want #'eql for fixnums.
2020-12-15T03:49:19Z ldbeth: ok, so is there a way to utilize the result of #'sxhash to make hash tables with custom hash function?
2020-12-15T03:50:28Z ldbeth: say if i want a list of character as keys, and the order doesn't matter
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2020-12-15T03:51:38Z devon: Define gethash* to sxhash the key.
2020-12-15T03:52:06Z Bike: there's no standard way to do that. sbcl has an extension for it. dunno about other implementations.
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2020-12-15T03:53:51Z ldbeth uses CCL
2020-12-15T03:55:26Z no-defun-allowed: I think you can provide a custom :test and :hash-function on Clozure.
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2020-12-15T03:55:48Z ldbeth: no-defun-allowed: thank you for the info
2020-12-15T03:55:57Z no-defun-allowed: eg (make-hash-table :test '= :hash-function 'round)
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2020-12-15T04:00:13Z ldbeth: no-defun-allowed: but how do you know with kind of tests are avaliable?
2020-12-15T04:00:29Z no-defun-allowed: I think you can pass any predicate function.
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2020-12-15T04:01:30Z no-defun-allowed: However, I recall custom hash tables being much slower on SBCL than standard hash tables; which is a pity, because otherwise I could do (make-hash-table :test 'string= :hash-function 'djb2)
2020-12-15T04:02:09Z ldbeth: ah, i see, only the #'eql #'eq etc can be passed as argument as in CL standard, others should be passed as 'char= 'string= etc
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2020-12-15T04:04:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-12-15T04:04:34Z ldbeth: beach: heloo
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2020-12-15T04:11:11Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, only those test functions are allowed by the Common Lisp standard.
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2020-12-15T04:14:09Z no-defun-allowed: But SICL hash tables and Luckless permit any hash and test functions, and are basically drop-in replacements for Common Lisp hash tables. (Except that hash functions based on the address of an object will not work in either, if your implementation moves objects.)
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2020-12-15T04:25:14Z ldbeth: no-defun-allowed: at least sxhash should be guaranteed to work
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2020-12-15T04:38:02Z easye: Mornin' #lisp.  Time to make CONS.
2020-12-15T04:38:58Z beach: Hello easye.
2020-12-15T04:39:12Z beach: How are your projects going?
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2020-12-15T04:46:08Z easye: beach: I just joined RavenPack, so right now most of my energy is going into learning the code base.
2020-12-15T04:46:21Z beach: Oh, nice!  Did you move?
2020-12-15T04:46:27Z easye: I will try to get an abcl-1.8.1 out over the holidays.
2020-12-15T04:46:57Z beach: Great!
2020-12-15T04:47:00Z easye: I am working with phoe to get ELS 2021 airborne, hopefully to get the CFP out before the holidays.
2020-12-15T04:47:22Z easye: So, a lot of stuff.
2020-12-15T04:47:26Z beach: Yes, I see.
2020-12-15T04:48:00Z easye: Moving isn't possible at the moment.  I will evaluate things when the pandemic starts to tamper off, which probably won't be until late 2021.
2020-12-15T04:48:13Z beach: OK.
2020-12-15T04:48:49Z easye: But I think living in dense urban cities isn't necessarily my thing anymore, so Southern Spain sounds quite attractive at this point.
2020-12-15T04:49:17Z beach: Yeah, I wouldn't mind living there at all.
2020-12-15T04:49:18Z easye: "Cites are so 20th century" and all that.
2020-12-15T04:49:25Z beach: I agree, yes.
2020-12-15T04:49:32Z saganman: Morning beach
2020-12-15T04:49:38Z beach: easye: Where do you live now?
2020-12-15T04:49:58Z easye: Really, if I had to pick a beach, I would move in your neck of the woods, to around an hour north of Biaritz.
2020-12-15T04:50:05Z easye lives in Vienna, Austria.
2020-12-15T04:50:51Z beach: Yes, our region is pretty nice actually.
2020-12-15T04:51:28Z easye: French food, and the sheer amount of great stuff y'all have in your hypermarks is magnitudes better than what is available in Austria.
2020-12-15T04:51:44Z easye: And it has gotten much better over the last couple decades here.
2020-12-15T04:51:54Z easye: s/hypermarks/hypermarts/
2020-12-15T04:52:15Z beach: Hmm, yes, I see.
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2020-12-15T04:53:18Z easye: And groceries in France are considerably cheaper than in Austria.  When I have been shopping in France, a full basket of great stuff rarely breaks 100EUR.  In Austria, the same stuff at less quality would easily break 300 EUR.
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2020-12-15T04:53:46Z beach: Wow, quite a big difference.
2020-12-15T04:54:06Z easye: Yeah, I was very surprised that there is such a differential in the EU.
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2020-12-15T04:54:39Z easye: And how are your projects going, beach?
2020-12-15T04:54:47Z beach: Very well thank you.
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2020-12-15T04:55:11Z beach: I just finished version 3 of the SICL bootstrapping procedure.
2020-12-15T04:55:25Z beach: Too bad it had to take three trials to get it right.
2020-12-15T04:55:39Z easye: Third time's the charm.
2020-12-15T04:55:40Z beach: But that's life.  Nobody has done this before, so I had to learn by doing.
2020-12-15T04:55:56Z jeosol: Good morning all!
2020-12-15T04:56:03Z beach: Hello jeosol.
2020-12-15T04:56:08Z easye: Mornin' jeosol
2020-12-15T04:56:12Z jeosol: beach: congrats on that
2020-12-15T04:56:18Z beach: Thanks.
2020-12-15T04:56:22Z jeosol: easye, beach: hello
2020-12-15T04:56:43Z beach: There is still a lot of work left.  How much is hard to say.
2020-12-15T05:00:01Z jeosol: beach: going through my CL archives, I came across a document you author, in 2000 or compiled by Loic Lacomme: "Symbolic programming using Common Lisp"
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2020-12-15T05:01:00Z jeosol: it does contain good points when I was trying to justify CL for choice of a project back then - I no longer do this anyway, following advice here and elsewhere
2020-12-15T05:02:39Z jeosol: beach: the bootstrapping procedure, version 3, that's also probably in the spirit of iterative CL development
2020-12-15T05:12:13Z beach: I can't remember having written that document, but I am not surprised either.
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2020-12-15T05:12:42Z jeosol: I think the person mentioned compiled it from notes, it seems but attributed the content to you
2020-12-15T05:12:53Z beach: jeosol: In this case, it is just that I was unable to predict the negative consequences of the choices I made for versions 1 and 2.
2020-12-15T05:13:03Z beach: Oh, I see.
2020-12-15T05:13:22Z jeosol: I see. So v1 and v2 are different from v3
2020-12-15T05:13:42Z beach: Similar in spirit, but different in the details.
2020-12-15T05:14:07Z beach: To the untrained eye, they look the same.
2020-12-15T05:14:57Z jeosol: I recently did some refactoring also  using "layering" of problems and macros to automatically generate functions - always good feeling afterwards
2020-12-15T05:16:40Z jeosol: beach: oh ok. I saw a thread on reddit about parallel gc's or something a few of the lispers chiming in. Did you see it?
2020-12-15T05:17:09Z jeosol: Is parallel GC something you are looking into? FYI, I am not a compiler guy - not an expert in that space
2020-12-15T05:17:10Z beach: I don't think I did.
2020-12-15T05:17:26Z easye: <https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/kd816x/excerpts_from_the_pro_mailing_list_on_common_lisp/>
2020-12-15T05:17:41Z beach: Yes, the GC I designed for SICL is parallel and concurrent, but it hasn't been tested in real life yet.
2020-12-15T05:17:42Z jeosol: thanks easye, that's the link
2020-12-15T05:17:42Z easye: As I just commented, ABCL has parallel GC with the right JVM implementation.
2020-12-15T05:17:58Z beach: Oh, yes, I get the Pro mailing list.
2020-12-15T05:19:10Z beach: I need to vanish for a while.  Busy morning today, with tasks unrelated to Common Lisp.
2020-12-15T05:19:22Z easye: l8r beach
2020-12-15T05:19:23Z jeosol: ok, we'll be here.
2020-12-15T05:20:35Z jeosol: easye: what are you working on these days?
2020-12-15T05:20:58Z easye: At the moment, commercial work with my new position at RavenPack.
2020-12-15T05:21:12Z easye: But I plan to get an abcl-1.8.1 out over the holidays.
2020-12-15T05:21:54Z jeosol: That's nice. You just got the role?
2020-12-15T05:22:26Z easye: no-defun-allowed managed to get ABCL working with the Project Loom green threads <https://twitter.com/nodefunallowed/status/1337560381930098690> which I would like to add.
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2020-12-15T05:22:45Z easye: jeosol: Yes, I joined RavenPack at the beginning of December.
2020-12-15T05:23:24Z jeosol: Sweet. Congrats. Is this the company based in Spain? I forget
2020-12-15T05:23:47Z easye: RavenPack has a mature CL codebase with lots of stuff to learn.
2020-12-15T05:24:46Z easye: Yes, RavenPack is based in Spain.  We do "sentiment analysis" of data, providing structured feeds of unstructured data.
2020-12-15T05:25:33Z easye: The bread and butter at the moment is providing machine-readable "signals" for financial news, but we are actively expanding into general analysis of textual data.
2020-12-15T05:26:47Z lotuseater: sounds nice
2020-12-15T05:27:48Z easye: It is very nice, indeed, especially after a long drought of commerical work for me personally.  To be doing it in our favorite CONS makes it extra so.
2020-12-15T05:29:20Z easye: And the people at RavenPack are top-notch to boot.
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2020-12-15T05:30:06Z lotuseater: oh that's a big plus. money isn't everything
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2020-12-15T05:32:55Z lotuseater: so you combine also data science and natural language processing (in text form)
2020-12-15T05:34:21Z jeosol: easye: favorite cons haha. very nice
2020-12-15T05:34:27Z easye: Exactly, and we are starting to incorporate Machine Learning for the buzzword trifecta.
2020-12-15T05:34:49Z jeosol: Are you guys using python for some of the ML work or it's all CL
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2020-12-15T05:34:59Z lotuseater: oh that buzzword is new to me
2020-12-15T05:35:14Z easye: Yes, we are using Python for Machine Learning (Tensorflow).
2020-12-15T05:35:23Z jeosol: lotuseater: which? trifecta?
2020-12-15T05:35:57Z jeosol: easye: I see, I once looked at Gabor Melis's code and I realized he integrated with python do some of the ML work.
2020-12-15T05:36:04Z lotuseater: i worked a while for a data science company where mostly python is used, the libs are very mature :)
2020-12-15T05:36:05Z easye: And we actually use Java to massage the input sources into our classifiers.
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2020-12-15T05:36:18Z lotuseater: jeosol: yes trifecta
2020-12-15T05:36:20Z jeosol: lotuseater: true about the MLs.
2020-12-15T05:36:43Z jeosol: lotuseater: generally meaning three-pronged, three things, etc
2020-12-15T05:37:33Z lotuseater: yes and also pandas is cool for example. but back then (2018) i just was new to functional programming and far away from CL
2020-12-15T05:37:43Z lotuseater: ah okay
2020-12-15T05:37:57Z jeosol: easye: regarding your commercial statement, I seem to recall that some defense companies (US side) are using allegro works, I was in a few of their talks on Ontology and knowledge graphs
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2020-12-15T05:38:53Z jeosol: lotuseater: pandas is nice. I recall someone (i forgot who) was developing a similar dataframe-based library in CL and has some applications
2020-12-15T05:39:30Z easye: RavenPack is an Allegro shop.  Our semantic taxonomies are mostly home-grown, mainly for efficiency/speed.
2020-12-15T05:40:30Z easye: I did a lot of semantic web research in a former life, and really like processing things with RDF, so will bring that perspective, slowly, into focus.
2020-12-15T05:41:20Z lotuseater: allegro shop?
2020-12-15T05:41:42Z easye: RavenPack uses Allegro Common Lisp exclusively.
2020-12-15T05:42:15Z lotuseater: ah ok, was too obvious so i asked :D
2020-12-15T05:43:02Z lotuseater: i never tried on one of the commercial implementations
2020-12-15T05:43:34Z easye: This is my second job using commercial implementations, the previous one was using LispWorks.
2020-12-15T05:43:35Z jeosol: I see, there's a statement by RavenPack's Jason Cornez on Franz's site
2020-12-15T05:44:13Z easye: If you have the money, and you have a job to get done, it is nice having commericial support.
2020-12-15T05:44:20Z lotuseater: i would give everything even landing one
2020-12-15T05:44:38Z jeosol: I recall the talks by Jans talked about their rdfs
2020-12-15T05:45:22Z jeosol: easye: so you'd recommend Allegro. I hear it's slower compared to SBCL, I haven't done a test.
2020-12-15T05:45:46Z jeosol: I only used it briefly many years when starting out and figuring which compiler to start using
2020-12-15T05:46:02Z easye: I wouldn't recommend anything without knowing the context (how much money do you want to spend?  What are your developers used to? etc.)
2020-12-15T05:46:23Z jeosol: what about their single digit revenue "clause". I thought there was something like that. May be different now.
2020-12-15T05:46:43Z easye: SBCL is a fine implementation.  GOOG uses it for the air flight search application they acquired from ITA.
2020-12-15T05:46:56Z jeosol: easye: Fair point. What I meant about recommended is all within CL sphere, and in relation to LispWorks
2020-12-15T05:47:19Z easye: jeosol: Franz is definitely the ORCL of Common Lisp implementations in terms of cost and licensing, but their support is nicer.
2020-12-15T05:47:20Z jeosol: SBCL is what I have used primarily all through
2020-12-15T05:47:35Z jeosol: easye: Thanks for that. It's good to know
2020-12-15T05:48:01Z jeosol: My contact then stressed the support part.
2020-12-15T05:48:20Z easye: Anyways, nice chatting.  I'm gonna start my "commute" to work now.
2020-12-15T05:48:33Z jeosol: Safe trip. Have a nice day
2020-12-15T05:48:48Z easye: Already there--it's more of mental thing.  Take care.
2020-12-15T05:48:57Z jeosol: hahaha, ok
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2020-12-15T05:57:05Z no-defun-allowed: easye: Hey, sorry for the delay, I was gardening, but using Loom is not backwards compatible with OS threads.
2020-12-15T05:57:22Z no-defun-allowed: Or, more specifically, you have the same methods to spawn OS threads, then you have another method to spawn a green thread.
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2020-12-15T05:58:28Z no-defun-allowed: The change I made was to put `javaThread = Thread.startVirtualThread(r);` in the constructor for LispThread(Function, LispObject) instead of the other stuff to make a Java thread.
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2020-12-15T05:59:44Z easye: no-defun-allowed: cool.  Would you recommend that as the way to spawn all threads when running on Loom then?
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2020-12-15T06:00:00Z no-defun-allowed: I don't see why not, currently.
2020-12-15T06:00:04Z easye: Gardening is a nice alternative.
2020-12-15T06:00:19Z easye: no-defun-allowed: Thanks.  I'll get to that soon, then.
2020-12-15T06:01:02Z no-defun-allowed: But again, it's not backwards compatible with older Java, and Loom is based off a test of JDK 16, so it's not even compatible with anything stable.
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2020-12-15T06:01:35Z easye: Detecting the presence of the Thread.startVirtualThread() method should be sufficient.
2020-12-15T06:02:29Z easye: Do you know if Loom openjdk16 EAs are multi-platform?  (I assume you are running Linux)
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2020-12-15T06:04:00Z easye: <https://github.com/AdoptOpenJDK/openjdk16-binaries/releases/tag/jdk-2020-12-10-20-02> looks pretty multi-platform.
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2020-12-15T06:11:50Z no-defun-allowed: I suppose so then.
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2020-12-15T06:22:59Z no-defun-allowed: easye: I still wish there was an incremental and/or concurrent _and_ generational GC on Java. The first generational collector (to my knowledge, the Liebermann-Hewitt collector) was an extension of an incremental collector (Baker copying), so this feels like a bit of a step back.
2020-12-15T06:24:44Z easye: I thought GC1 was concurrent and generational, but without realtime guarantees.  But I trust you have looked at the current state of JVM GCs a lot harder than I have in recent years.
2020-12-15T06:25:29Z no-defun-allowed: G1GC? I thought it stopped the world, at least for major GCs when not apparently in a failure mode.
2020-12-15T06:26:25Z no-defun-allowed: No, it is concurrent, but I always got pauses when...using it with large heaps with...soft-realtime stuff.
2020-12-15T06:26:38Z easye: <https://blog.idrsolutions.com/2017/05/g1gc-java-9-garbage-collector-explained-5-minutes/> sez:  G1, however, will only “stop-the-world” during a full garbage collection. In addition to this, it also offers a variety of tuning options so that full collections can be avoided outright.
2020-12-15T06:26:54Z easye: But again, my knowledge of GCs on the JVM is pretty superficial.
2020-12-15T06:27:57Z easye: And my knowledge of the taxonomy of garbage collection algorithms is even lighter.
2020-12-15T06:28:49Z no-defun-allowed: I see. I think I got a major GC every few minutes, which was no fun to play on-- er, I mean no good for my...latency-sensitive application.
2020-12-15T06:29:17Z easye: Minecraft is a perfectly good application, training the next generation of Lispers...
2020-12-15T06:29:40Z easye: If it works for Minecraft, it oughta work for HFT
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2020-12-15T06:30:16Z no-defun-allowed: You got me. But a decent Minecraft modpack demands a large heap, and thus a clever GC. From what I heard, recent Minecraft conses up a lot of useless stuff like point objects, so the generational hypothesis would hold.
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2020-12-15T06:32:09Z adlai: easye: to what extent does your employer have access to the signals and classifications?
2020-12-15T06:33:02Z adlai: one pervasive idiocy in finance is that you should sell signals, instead of trading on them yourself, then your signals are worth whatever your the willing sucker pays the happy seller
2020-12-15T06:33:13Z no-defun-allowed: But my observation could have been due to swapping as well; as I mentioned a few days ago, I got more memory around the same time I got into JVM occultism. And I read that G1 only stops the world when it's completely out of memory.
2020-12-15T06:34:16Z adlai: my question could be rephrased as "Does RavenPack sell its customers the actual signals, or a tool for building their own signal classifier and alert system"
2020-12-15T06:35:36Z easye: There is nothing trivial with games, their playing, or their optimization.  Conway was a famous gamer.  And according to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computability_logic> all computer programs are isomorphic to a two-player static agmes.
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2020-12-15T06:36:18Z adlai incidentally is from the polar opposite finance dogmas, where the only possible good use of human-generated text is for consumption by humans, and anything automating human judgement is automatically suspect
2020-12-15T06:36:31Z no-defun-allowed: I had read a lot of the Handbook, but all the cool Java collectors do some clever analysis that I could describe as "they do the marking and count up the marks in regions, then lazily sweep the most unmarked regions", which I don't recall.
2020-12-15T06:36:34Z easye: adlai: RavenPack buys feeds like DowJones, and sells our own feeds enriched with semantics for the signals.
2020-12-15T06:37:29Z easye: That transformation is mostly proprietary, mainly because our customers have been interesting it things working well/fast rather than how they work.
2020-12-15T06:37:57Z easye: err "have been interested in"
2020-12-15T06:38:18Z adlai: it's also simpler to build and develop things that way
2020-12-15T06:39:03Z easye: We sell tools for enriching the signals to some extent primarily an online Juptyer-like notebook.
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2020-12-15T06:39:44Z easye: But I have only been at the company for a couple weeks now, and am engaged primarily as a CL hacker, so my statements may not entirely accurate.
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2020-12-15T06:40:05Z no-defun-allowed: So what can I say, that's kinda neat. And they use mark information to decide what needs to be compacted, but moving regions and not large amounts of a heap sounds tedious.
2020-12-15T06:42:00Z easye: no-defun-allowed: What is the "Handbook" you refer to?
2020-12-15T06:42:10Z no-defun-allowed: It may be too much to hope for, but I would hope for another edition of the Handbook that covers these collectors in depth.
2020-12-15T06:42:30Z no-defun-allowed: easye: The Garbage Collection Handbook by Jones, Hosking and Moss
2020-12-15T06:42:49Z easye puts that on his reading list.
2020-12-15T06:44:51Z adlai: so RavenPack itself never touches any of the exchanges? I guess it is still possible to simulate a signal's effects, for reinforcement.
2020-12-15T06:45:34Z easye: adlai: "touching the exchanges" not as far as I know.  We certainly don't have realtime/historical equity prices.
2020-12-15T06:46:06Z no-defun-allowed: beach told me that it is not the clearest to read at times, and I have to agree sadly. But it is still very useful to read.
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2020-12-15T06:48:57Z adlai: easye: I'd expect that the market feed is an important factor for distinguishing noise about an event (where various [anti-]correlations in the time series reduce towards absolute zero), from noise about noise (where [anti-]correlations increase away from absolute zero, and you'd detect human amplification of e.g. a surprising quarterly report)
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2020-12-15T06:49:58Z adlai: although I am probably "teaching to the choir", here, and should go study something myself
2020-12-15T06:53:07Z easye: Well, we are just transmitting the structure of events related to companies; e.g. "Oracle just poached so-and-so as SVP of marketing from Salesforce".  What these events have to pricing doesn't really factor into such knowledge.  The companies which use our feeds add that sort of information.
2020-12-15T06:54:26Z adlai finds the company's pandemic dashboard... that is probably a good free demo of what your paying customers get, for other contexts
2020-12-15T06:54:29Z easye: If we added pricing information to our decision, that would presuppose a pricing model.
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2020-12-15T06:54:42Z easye: Yeah, the pandemic dashboard is a good public facing example.
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2020-12-15T06:55:14Z easye: But it is an interesting line to pursue about correlations.
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2020-12-15T06:55:49Z adlai: hmm, you could call yourselves a quality-pass filter between the data science garbage pipelines; although somehow "big data" is a more popular meme than "gigo" these days :(
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2020-12-15T06:58:51Z easye just calls himself "employed" at this point.
2020-12-15T06:59:45Z adlai: I think your employer's big group photo is a good site design choice, as a background to the executive mugshots...
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2020-12-15T07:00:35Z adlai: when I see an "About Us" page that only lists half a dozen names, my own internal automated sentiment processor starts giving false positives along the lines of "wow, a statistically significant percentage of these people must have a passing familiarity with common lisp"
2020-12-15T07:01:19Z adlai: then I see the photo that enables estimating the denomenator more accurately, and laugh
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2020-12-15T07:03:05Z adlai wonders whether the dashboard website is also built by a CL program?
2020-12-15T07:03:20Z easye: No the website is Python (Flask I believe).
2020-12-15T07:04:02Z adlai: ahh. I was gonna say, it has all the other dynamic sites that I've encountered lately completely beaten as far as working reasonably on an overworked computer
2020-12-15T07:04:56Z easye: I don't think having an entire company knowing the technology intimately is a reasonable standard.  I doubt the majority of Intel knows much about chip design, lets say.
2020-12-15T07:05:08Z adlai: believe it or not, there are actually sketchy cryptocurrency bucket shops that put sentiment feeds into the same one webpage of their site that the traders use for charting and commands
2020-12-15T07:05:59Z easye: Cryptocurrency is definitely the Wild West.  I had been ranging on it for the past half-decade before joining RavenPack.
2020-12-15T07:07:08Z adlai: there is not really anything to join. there are various companies although the well-managed ones are almost invariably providing services that have existed in the digital finance world for half a century, maybe more. (e.g., the kind of service your employer offers)
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2020-12-15T07:08:48Z easye: The "social movement" aspect of crypto is more interesting, reminding me of the pre-commercial Internet.
2020-12-15T07:08:49Z adlai: it has been quite interesting to see how the folks who make a name for themselves doing manually, what RavenPack does programmatically, end up moving in one of two directions once they have attracted their audience
2020-12-15T07:10:24Z adlai exceeds #lisp topic by three sigma, issues ACTION to correct error
2020-12-15T07:10:42Z easye goes back to keep on being employed.
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2020-12-15T07:17:25Z adlai: let's go back to talking about garbage collection for reclamation, as opposed to filtering for noise... no-defun-allowed, I can never figure out if you are referring to "ANSI Standard Minecraft", your own client implementation, some de-facto standardized upstream client, etc
2020-12-15T07:18:05Z no-defun-allowed: X3J13 ANSI Common Minecraft
2020-12-15T07:18:31Z adlai: no-defun-allowed: I tripped up reading your previous message that "recent Minecraft... conses up a lot of point objects"
2020-12-15T07:19:13Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I heard that Minecraft conses a lot of short-lived objects from the OptiFine developer, who was very pissy about it, and somehow didn't sound familiar with GCs at all despite what they make.
2020-12-15T07:19:31Z easye: no-defun-allowed's work on Minecraft <https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/minecraft-hacks/abcl-minecraft>
2020-12-15T07:19:58Z adlai wonders whether there's already a name existing for the subalgorithm of hash-consing, in the context of ... for lack of a more general context, flat euclidean space.
2020-12-15T07:20:11Z no-defun-allowed: They said that you have to scan all the dead objects, which no sane GC does these days.
2020-12-15T07:21:09Z adlai: so a CL minecraft client could have points use a metaclass, where allocate-instance reuses the hash-consed point objects, and behind the scenes are a handful of multidimensional bit arrays
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2020-12-15T07:22:53Z adlai: ... this kind of hash-point-consing, as opposed to the algorithms where you cons up points and shapes explicitly, and then end up having to maintain heaps of them, sorted by various geometrical constraints
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2020-12-15T07:24:20Z no-defun-allowed: That could be doable.
2020-12-15T07:24:56Z adlai: my guess is that most who are "familiar with GCs" are familiar with them in a manner similar to the guy who drives the truck, rather than the one who troubleshoots the compactor after it stops crushing
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2020-12-15T07:27:32Z adlai: I guess my thinking of this as related to hash-consing might be a false positive, too; because, "hash" is almost certainly the wrong metaphor in contexts where the sparse data behaves contiguously
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2020-12-15T07:36:16Z adlai: easye: that photo probably contains ... i dunno, strictly within (3,27) common lisp programmers; although, my semantic operational conclusion is that the bus factor evidenced by that photo is "only one backpack was important enough to not be out of sight for one second, ever?"
2020-12-15T07:39:13Z flip214: which photo?
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2020-12-15T07:51:34Z adlai: flip214: the big background image of view-source:https://www.ravenpack.com/about/ where you see dozens of people doing something outdoorsy, rather than mugshots of executives
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2020-12-15T07:54:28Z adlai: easye: hmmm, there is still a bit of GIGO: localizing the pandemic dashboard causes display of headlines from the english-language sites of local newspapers, and the local newspapers are garbage :)
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2020-12-15T07:55:50Z adlai: e.g., it appears that haaretz.com double-published an article with a mistake in one copy's headline; and both links appear in the dashboard.
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2020-12-15T07:58:02Z adlai: I guess it is a problematic error to expect that such a service would catch.
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2020-12-15T08:02:38Z adlai: minion: memo for nij: earlier someone pointed you at chanl, for writing parallelized code; you should be warned that it is unsuitable for production use (there are a few race conditions, that should be detected by test failures)
2020-12-15T08:02:39Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell nij when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-12-15T08:04:38Z adlai: adlai: memo for adlai: the ABCL+JVM green threads might be a good choice for the next platform for hunting down the race condition
2020-12-15T08:04:58Z phoe: you likely meant minion
2020-12-15T08:06:13Z adlai forgets. He'll think through whether it's a worthwhile hunting tactic, when the bug next speaks.
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2020-12-15T08:28:18Z no-defun-allowed: Where do people draw the line on "large" Lisp programs? I found that my full network stack is about 8,500 lines of non-test code, and 1,300 lines of test code, and I'm worried that I've done something wrong by approaching 10,000 lines total.
2020-12-15T08:29:22Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know how many lines it should be, but it feels larger than it should be. But, then again, it's also ridiculous to me that I only wrote that much over two years.
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2020-12-15T08:32:54Z White_Flame: large team commercial projects are always going to be way larger than smaller or solo codebases
2020-12-15T08:33:05Z White_Flame: since they're by default much less holistic
2020-12-15T08:34:06Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2020-12-15T08:34:29Z White_Flame: Our biggest codebase (of multiple interconnected projects) is 30k, and does a ton
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2020-12-15T08:34:37Z White_Flame: *30kloc
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2020-12-15T08:37:21Z easye: adlai: thanks for the report.  I've forwarded to the pandemic dashboard group.
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2020-12-15T08:39:03Z no-defun-allowed: I see. Part of my fear is that it's harder to sell, and no one would want to write another implementation of it. Some ACME Network Protocol supposedly requires a hundred times less code to implement; even though I think it does much less, it's not likely someone would begin duplicating a 10kLOC codebase if they want their own implementation.
2020-12-15T08:39:39Z no-defun-allowed: As in, they would be much more hesitant to pick it up as a weekend project, though I hope there isn't a need to reimplement it :)
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2020-12-15T08:41:20Z adlai: it is not a continuous topology, no-defun-allowed
2020-12-15T08:42:06Z flip214: adlai: thanks
2020-12-15T08:42:41Z no-defun-allowed: In any case, it's at a size where I'm not sure if it's too large, and I've played myself into picking up a lot of bloat; or if it's too small, and despite the time I put into it, I've been incredibly unproductive for two years.
2020-12-15T08:42:44Z adlai: e.g., 10ksloc was also a magic number that weighed heavily on my mind when I began building scalpl, and I often deleted gangrenous waste just so I could tell myself that the entire thing is less than ten thousand lines.
2020-12-15T08:43:32Z adlai: ... then one day, I tried using SBCL instead of CCL, and discovered that my project also uses Ironclad... and OpenSSL!
2020-12-15T08:43:51Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks to DuckDuckGo for showing me some lovely images of gangrene, after searching for a definition of "gangrenous", as I forgot what it was.
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2020-12-15T08:44:40Z no-defun-allowed: I don't have to maintain Ironclad, SBCL or OpenSSL though, and neither does some other implementor.
2020-12-15T08:44:46Z adlai: scalpl is probably the only app that uses chanl; so, is chanl's linecount tax-deductible because it supports the ecosystem by existing as a separate library?
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2020-12-15T08:46:15Z no-defun-allowed: Or on the other hand, I could say I have three projects, and none of them are disconcertingly large.
2020-12-15T08:46:45Z adlai: recently I broke apart scalpl into separate systems, because it was making http requests at compile- and load-time, so the systems for each exchange are now separate, and the linecount space is arguably also not euclidean.
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2020-12-15T08:48:32Z adlai used the word 'gangrenous' to describe code that is actively bitrotting, by being an unchanged implementation of unstandardized protocols; e.g., reading a data feed published by a sketchy exchange
2020-12-15T08:49:25Z no-defun-allowed: To be fair, I have gone on an anti-minimalist streak, with enough abstractions and polymorphism to scare aeth at least. But it's somewhere around 30 to 100 times larger than an implementation of a more stupid protocol! That just seems wrong.
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2020-12-15T08:50:03Z adlai: considering scalpl as a central library, along with half a dozen exchange implementations, gives a much better picture of the same lines' counts; and a similar split is probably possible with games and game engines
2020-12-15T08:50:36Z adlai: complexity of class and method hierarchy is a much better metric
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2020-12-15T08:51:55Z adlai: what exactly are you considering as part of the "full network stack"?
2020-12-15T08:52:27Z adlai: [e.g., "upwards of firmware; both client, and server"]
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2020-12-15T08:53:13Z no-defun-allowed: I have a distributed hash table and a protocol for handling wire protocols, a distributed object system, a bytecode interpreter for reproducible computing, a server and client that glue those together, and a filesystem-backed "database" for the server.
2020-12-15T08:53:26Z phoe: in only 10k lines of code?
2020-12-15T08:53:48Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, I guess 10k is small for those then?
2020-12-15T08:53:51Z adlai raises floor to... "upwards of data layer" ?
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2020-12-15T08:54:05Z phoe: separate those projects from one another
2020-12-15T08:54:11Z phoe: on the interface layer
2020-12-15T08:54:16Z phoe: count LoC separately for each of them
2020-12-15T08:54:40Z phoe: that'll that should give you a somewhat better picture
2020-12-15T08:55:15Z no-defun-allowed: I have, I have three projects. Then I have 3,200 lines, 3,400 and 1,700.
2020-12-15T08:55:46Z phoe: that's not much, given that you have clean interface boundaries between those
2020-12-15T08:56:04Z phoe: and you likely do, knowing your programming style
2020-12-15T08:56:16Z no-defun-allowed: I hope so.
2020-12-15T08:56:18Z adlai: which is which? netfarm, cl-decentralize2, ...?
2020-12-15T08:56:41Z no-defun-allowed: My size ratio was wrong; it's closer to my implementation being 20× larger.
2020-12-15T08:58:02Z no-defun-allowed: adlai: Well, cl-decentralise2 (3200 lines) does DHT and wire protocol, Netfarm (3400 lines) does object system and bytecodes, and I have "glue code" (without a better name -- 1700 lines) which extends decentralise2 server and client to work with Netfarm.
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2020-12-15T08:58:52Z adlai: I like the third item of https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm#todo ; it reminds me of the ending of Animal Farm.
2020-12-15T08:59:00Z flip214: I've written a snippet that counts forms (recursively) instead of lines, and takes ' and ` as single items (as they're mostly data, not logic)
2020-12-15T08:59:34Z no-defun-allowed: I may need to update that README for the next release. I've done all three of those.
2020-12-15T08:59:34Z flip214: LOC doesn't help much for things like (LET ((a 1)\n(b 2)) or long parameter lists in DEFUN and so on
2020-12-15T09:00:18Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, I get a lot of additional lines from using long names, such as UPDATE-SYSTEM-FOR-NEW-INTERESTING-OBJECT-PREDICATE
2020-12-15T09:00:32Z adlai: the unit of mental load is the screenfull; and if your widescreen battlestation has three windows of your IDE open, then that is three screenfulls in one monitor.
2020-12-15T09:00:46Z Nilby: cl-linecount-geometer - a multi-dimensional code density mapper
2020-12-15T09:00:50Z easye: And a screenful should be 80x25 damnit.
2020-12-15T09:01:24Z adlai: both LOC and SLOC are worthless metrics when you have lots of utilities; decide to use alexandria, or anaphora, etc, and suddenly have your linecount vanishes, and the other half - has to be rewritten
2020-12-15T09:02:25Z adlai: 80x25, that's what... eighty columns, twenty three rows, a docstring, and a modeline?
2020-12-15T09:02:29Z Nilby: adlai: Yes, I agree, and that proably why that package won't exist.
2020-12-15T09:02:51Z easye has a small brain.
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2020-12-15T09:06:01Z adlai: Nilby: no, I disagree; the friction for that package's creation is that the topologists are busy catching up on twentieth-century technical debt; all those junk categories and complexity classes of linear algebra optimizations
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2020-12-15T09:08:06Z Nilby: adlai: hmmmm, that could be. It seems almost everyone, including me, is still mired in 20th cen. debt.
2020-12-15T09:08:29Z Nilby: tech debt that is
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2020-12-15T09:12:50Z Nilby: easye: I've been trying to hang in there for years considering terminals at 80x25, but sometimes that window just needs to be expanded. emojis and non-latin chars can bring it down closer to 40x25 too.
2020-12-15T09:13:17Z Nilby: ascii art sometimes needs a bigger canvas too
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2020-12-15T09:14:59Z Nilby: Of course the small assumtion works well coding on the phone
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2020-12-15T09:19:29Z adlai: the tablet's 80x25 is "one paragraph of a Paul Graham essay", because you should not be editing, nor source code, on a touchscreen
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2020-12-15T09:23:45Z Nilby: Coding in the repl with good completion is not as bad as one might imagine on a tiny device. I've also been tinkering an audio only repl for a while.
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2020-12-15T09:27:13Z Nilby: but I like how PG admitted he coded much of hackernews at the repl of the live running site.
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2020-12-15T09:29:26Z adlai: the failure mode of repl+production is harmless, you just ask someone to go reboot the server; failure more of touchscreen IDE is that suddenly you start counting how many pixels your code is, and your unit of measurement is nonlinear and called the fingersmudge
2020-12-15T09:31:15Z Nilby ... addding fingersmudge to the units database
2020-12-15T09:31:21Z adlai: Nilby: if I understood correctly, that you have actually developed code in a repl from a touchscreen: you use the system keyboard, or something smarter that the IDE provides?
2020-12-15T09:32:04Z adlai: fingersmudge has a biometrically precise definition, it's just one quantum of uncertainty in a police fingerprint database
2020-12-15T09:32:37Z adlai: in square arrangement, the fingersmudge is approximately equal to the area of a cell in minesweeper.
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2020-12-15T09:33:14Z Nilby: Yes. I used the stupid on screen keyboard. sbcl with my custom shell/repl running on a linux phone.
2020-12-15T09:34:43Z Nilby: I can see you would quickly be assigned keeper of units in my imaginary kingdom. As long as it's non-cheating minesweeper based units.
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2020-12-15T09:46:47Z Nilby: but the thing i'm loathe to admit, is that it made me want to make "vi" bindings, since emacs chords are a bit much for smudge based input.
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2020-12-15T10:00:01Z flip214: Did somebody already extend prometheus.cl to give HT request latencies as well? I just added the thread count and am wondering whether I'm the first to work on that
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2020-12-15T10:37:16Z adlai mumbles something about editor mode entropy flux interacting badly with translucent capacitors
2020-12-15T10:37:36Z fuukshiit: adlai, what are youo mumbling ?
2020-12-15T10:38:42Z adlai: a response to something that was written just before you joined, about editing lisp code using a touchscreen peripheral instead of a separate keyboard
2020-12-15T10:39:35Z fuukshiit: adlai, damn don't use touch screen just use a keyboard
2020-12-15T10:40:14Z adlai: once srandon111's connection stabilises, maybe I can remember what parts of the idea were signal and what parts were noise
2020-12-15T10:40:54Z fuukshiit: adlai, what do you mean?
2020-12-15T10:41:08Z adlai: it probably boils down to "modal editors oughtta waste at least one highly-visible pixel on the mode indicator"
2020-12-15T10:41:32Z adlai: fuukshiit was once known as srandon111, and is now known as fuukshiit, and I have internat enough for 2020.
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2020-12-15T10:42:08Z fuukshiit: adlai, please don't use an offensive language
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2020-12-15T11:17:19Z jackdaniel: oni-on-ion: ?
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2020-12-15T11:21:47Z oni-on-ion: jackdaniel, it was about your browser, hmm
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2020-12-15T11:34:27Z jackdaniel: I don't remember working on any browser
2020-12-15T11:34:45Z jackdaniel: I've built firefox once, but it was because I was using gentoo :)
2020-12-15T11:35:49Z jackdaniel: you probably mean a person with a nick with the same number of letters and starting with "j" (quite misleading coincidence): jmercouris
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2020-12-15T11:39:39Z oni-on-ion: i am very emberassed
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2020-12-15T11:40:46Z oni-on-ion: it was not anything important. but i sincerely apologise for mistaking you ! dont think i have dyslexia but my brain sorts words with first letter. thank you for clarifying
2020-12-15T11:41:02Z jackdaniel: (fun fact: our irc passwords also start with the same letter and have the same number of letters!)
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2020-12-15T11:41:45Z jackdaniel: no worries, I will bear it
2020-12-15T11:43:04Z oni-on-ion: =)
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2020-12-15T11:44:58Z nij: I have a function 'f that works as (f x y z). But now I have a list (list x y z). How would I pass the list to f?
2020-12-15T11:44:58Z minion: nij, memo from adlai: earlier someone pointed you at chanl, for writing parallelized code; you should be warned that it is unsuitable for production use (there are a few race conditions, that should be detected by test failures)
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2020-12-15T11:45:44Z oni-on-ion: ,clhs values
2020-12-15T11:45:49Z oni-on-ion: clhs values
2020-12-15T11:45:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm
2020-12-15T11:46:24Z jackdaniel: (if (first list) (second list) (third list))
2020-12-15T11:46:44Z oni-on-ion: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm
2020-12-15T11:47:02Z jackdaniel: and if you are doing something terribly wrong, then (if (eval (first list)) (eval (second list)) (eval (third list)))
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2020-12-15T11:47:38Z no-defun-allowed: Not apply?
2020-12-15T11:47:49Z OlCe: nij: (apply #'f list)
2020-12-15T11:47:51Z no-defun-allowed: (apply #'f '(x y z))
2020-12-15T11:48:04Z jackdaniel: ah! it was f, not IF! sorry
2020-12-15T11:48:17Z jackdaniel: ignore what I have said above
2020-12-15T11:48:23Z nij: Oh! lemme try
2020-12-15T11:50:26Z flip214: you can't FUNCALL  #'IF,  oh, you just have to wait....  they said EVAL don't come easy ...
2020-12-15T11:50:44Z jackdaniel: flip214: but it is not #'IF, it is #'F
2020-12-15T11:50:50Z flip214: thanks, now I've got an earwig
2020-12-15T11:50:52Z jackdaniel: I made the same mistake (see above)
2020-12-15T11:51:34Z flip214: jackdaniel: that's what I parodied above. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9IwBJYTwQ0
2020-12-15T11:53:20Z nij: Sigh.. there's no currying here.
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2020-12-15T11:53:43Z nij: Actuall what I want is (concatenate 'string "a" "b"), but I only have (list "a" "b")
2020-12-15T11:53:43Z minion: nij, memo from pjb: As I told you, don't leave early, people may be long to answer.
2020-12-15T11:54:14Z jackdaniel: youtube asks me to give my consent for some really long terms of service (and I don't have time to read it) - I can't watch it then, sorry
2020-12-15T11:54:22Z flip214: nij: (FORMAT NIL "~{~a~}" (list "a" "b"))
2020-12-15T11:54:30Z nij: But since there's no currying, I cannot (apply #'(concatenate 'string) '("a" "b"))
2020-12-15T11:54:30Z minion: nij, memo from pjb: Sometimes, it will take them a few seconds to type their answer!
2020-12-15T11:54:56Z flip214: nij: ALEXANDRIA provides CURRY and RCURRY
2020-12-15T11:54:59Z jackdaniel: nij: the library alexandria has functions curry and rcurry (writing your own is also trivial)
2020-12-15T11:55:00Z nij: flip214: yeah.. that's what I tried to avoid. The format syntax is not clear.
2020-12-15T11:55:05Z solideogloria[m]: <jackdaniel "youtube asks me to give my conse"> https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=C9IwBJYTwQ0
2020-12-15T11:55:10Z flip214: jackdaniel: "you can't hurry love", Phil Collins
2020-12-15T11:55:20Z jackdaniel: thanks
2020-12-15T11:55:25Z flip214: np
2020-12-15T11:55:31Z nij: flip214: I've just learned format and is comfortable with that. But 10 years later I won't understand it.
2020-12-15T11:55:40Z nij: The syntax is simply ugly.
2020-12-15T11:55:50Z flip214: nij: yeah, I understand your point.
2020-12-15T11:55:59Z jackdaniel: (defun curry (function &rest args) (lambda (other-args) (apply function (append args other-args)))
2020-12-15T11:56:00Z solideogloria[m]: % signs everywhere
2020-12-15T11:56:02Z jackdaniel: naive implementation
2020-12-15T11:56:06Z nij: So I rather curry-apply (concatenate 'string) to '("a" "b").
2020-12-15T11:56:25Z jackdaniel: (lambda (&rest other-args) …) *
2020-12-15T11:56:25Z flip214: still, have a one-line thing (that's "common" and standardized) or many more lines of code? Same as with Regexp!
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2020-12-15T11:56:52Z nij: i prefer many more lines
2020-12-15T11:56:59Z nij: clarity and simplicity is my goto
2020-12-15T11:57:16Z nij: (unless the macroexpansion is clear)
2020-12-15T11:57:22Z nij: is it? actually lemme try
2020-12-15T11:57:52Z jackdaniel: if you have a well-estabilished construct that takes one line and it is recognizable, then it is simpler and clearer
2020-12-15T11:58:11Z jackdaniel: in the same way as using "functions" instead of bunch of gotos in a single state machine
2020-12-15T11:58:24Z jackdaniel: s/single//
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2020-12-15T11:58:50Z nij: hmm that's a good point
2020-12-15T11:58:58Z nij: or i can just add a comment say what it does
2020-12-15T11:59:06Z edgar-rft: nij: what's with (apply #'concatenate 'string (list "a" "b")) ?
2020-12-15T11:59:23Z nij: ! haven't tried
2020-12-15T11:59:53Z nij: OHHHHHHH!
2020-12-15T12:00:13Z nij: I did not know you can use 'apply like this.
2020-12-15T12:02:43Z jackdaniel: apply treats the first argument as a function and the last one as a list, everything inbetween is treated as a single argument
2020-12-15T12:02:58Z nij: no.. cuz this doesn't work: (defun testing (a b c) (+ a b c)) (apply #'testing  1 2 '(2 3))
2020-12-15T12:03:19Z jackdaniel: you pass four arguments to testing there
2020-12-15T12:03:22Z nij: Oh ofc.
2020-12-15T12:03:25Z jackdaniel: and the function accepts three
2020-12-15T12:03:48Z nij: That's much better. I won't use ~a{~a~} anymore.
2020-12-15T12:04:24Z nij: (apply #'concatenate 'string (list "a" "b")) is much clearer, and it's a one-liner!
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2020-12-15T12:06:31Z jackdaniel: what unclear do you find in (format t "~x~f~1234,2314sd,dsf~{fasd~[~{~a~}~]~}~%" args #'format-function 'string "xxx") ; hm?
2020-12-15T12:07:04Z nij: LOL is it a joke? Or are you serious?
2020-12-15T12:07:09Z nij: nothing is clear!
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2020-12-15T12:09:33Z flip214: nij: please be aware that the maximum argument count limit applies to apply!
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2020-12-15T12:23:03Z loke[m]: nij: Yes, flip is right. Your APPLY solution is not great. You can, however, do the following: (reduce (lambda (a b) (concatenate 'string a b))  '("foo" "bar" "test"))
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2020-12-15T12:23:51Z loke[m]: Another solution: (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (mapc #'princ '("foo" "bar" "test")))
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2020-12-15T12:25:29Z nij: @@ I don't understand the comment.. coul you please elaborate? Why isn't apply good?
2020-12-15T12:25:39Z mrios222: Hi, if I want to use SQL in a program, what is the best library to choose? My first guess is clqsl, but the links to the documentation and tutorials are dead. Any recommendations?
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2020-12-15T12:29:14Z nij: Also, I dunno why but suddenly 'SLY' starts taking over 'SLIME'.. I like SLIME more.. what could have happened? SLY elision of strings is quite annoying..
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2020-12-15T12:33:35Z flip214: nij: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_call_a.htm
2020-12-15T12:34:04Z flip214: there's an (implementation-specific) limit to how many arguments a function call may have -- and that also applies to APPLY
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2020-12-15T12:34:39Z flip214: so if your list contains 1M strings (most of them could even be empty, ""), the APPLY call might fail with an error
2020-12-15T12:34:51Z nij: OH I see :O!!!
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2020-12-15T12:50:03Z Xach: nij: you can (apply 'concatenate 'string '("a" "b"))
2020-12-15T12:50:08Z Xach: oh man, i'm way behind.
2020-12-15T12:50:16Z jackdaniel: :-)
2020-12-15T12:50:32Z Xach must keep an eye on his scroll bar next time
2020-12-15T12:50:44Z jackdaniel: it would be better if you have had started: you can't apply to the operator if ^_^
2020-12-15T12:51:12Z Xach: mrios222: i use postmodern+postgresql
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2020-12-15T12:55:49Z mrios222: Xach: thanks, I will do that.
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2020-12-15T12:59:57Z Nilby: (format t "~@:(~s~) is~:[n't~;~] ~c ~(~s~) ~(~s~)~v,,,va~%" (car -) t #\u61 (cadr (pathname-directory #p"/*/")) (car '#'_) 8 #\! #\!)
2020-12-15T13:00:46Z oni-on-ion: =/
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2020-12-15T13:08:06Z _death: (constantia:out "Better " (car -) " than some " (:dc (cadr (pathname-directory #p"/**/"))))
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2020-12-15T13:16:02Z Nilby: I know it's wrong, but I love format. YTools is some interesting reading though.
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2020-12-15T13:18:02Z _death: I use format often, since it's in the standard
2020-12-15T13:20:32Z oni-on-ion: surely a macro can be made to 'decide' the best format string
2020-12-15T13:22:19Z _death: indeed my OUT macro uses format that way
2020-12-15T13:27:29Z _death: although it creates some quirks that I didn't bother with.. for example (let ((n 16) (c #\0) (w 4)) (outs (:d 12345 :width w :base n :pad-char c))) works, but add a (commas t) binding and :commas commas and you get an error
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2020-12-15T13:38:50Z Nilby: _death: Your out macro certainly seems clearer, more extensible, and more constructable. I try to resist the allure of most non-standtard constructs, because I fear getting a bit too far into a remote realm, like ytools seems.
2020-12-15T13:43:09Z Nilby: Unfortunately I've probably gone too far.
2020-12-15T13:43:18Z _death: yeah, even if operator X could be useful and make code pretty, still doesn't mean that it's a good idea to now depend on its library and use it everywhere
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2020-12-15T13:58:26Z freedddd: Hi. I'm trying to create a function which creates a subclass that overrides all ':allocation :class' slots of the superclass (the reason is that there will be further subclasses of this subclass that share their allocation of these slots). Is there some way to do this without re-writing all the slot definitions?
2020-12-15T13:58:31Z freedddd: In CL btw
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2020-12-15T14:10:40Z nij: How to format '("a" "b" "c") to "a\nb\nc"? I used (format nil "~{~%~a~}" lst) but got "\n\na\nb\nc".. and cannot find the working variant.
2020-12-15T14:12:38Z _death: "~{~A~^~%~}"
2020-12-15T14:12:41Z phoe: (format nil "~{~A~^\\n~}" '("a" "b" "c"))
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2020-12-15T14:12:55Z phoe: I assume you want \n and not newlines
2020-12-15T14:13:00Z phoe: if you want newlines, what _death said
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2020-12-15T14:14:24Z beach: freedddd: I am sure there is a solution using the MOP.
2020-12-15T14:14:26Z Alfr_ points in the general direction of _death and phoe: "Witches!"
2020-12-15T14:15:53Z _death: as an alfr you should accept some format galdrs
2020-12-15T14:16:36Z beach: mop class-slots
2020-12-15T14:16:36Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-slots.html
2020-12-15T14:16:46Z beach: mop slot-definition-allocation
2020-12-15T14:16:47Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-definition-allocation.html
2020-12-15T14:17:02Z beach: freedddd: ^
2020-12-15T14:17:05Z beach: There's a start.
2020-12-15T14:18:47Z freedddd: Thank you. I will have a look. Btw can I use MOP out of the box with CL implementations?
2020-12-15T14:19:05Z beach: You can use the compatibility library named CLOSER-MOP.
2020-12-15T14:19:19Z beach: You would have to install it using Quicklisp.
2020-12-15T14:19:30Z beach: Otherwise, most major Common Lisp implementations are supported.
2020-12-15T14:19:59Z freedddd: Thanks. I want my application to be usable on some different implementations such as SBCL, CCL, ECL
2020-12-15T14:20:15Z beach: Yes, they should all be supported.
2020-12-15T14:21:30Z freedddd: Is it hard to use basics of MOP without much study, e.g. reading AMOP? Already a rookie with CL
2020-12-15T14:22:28Z beach: You could use that metamodular site.  It is based on chapters 5 and 6 of the AMOP.
2020-12-15T14:22:47Z beach: But it is better organized with links and such.
2020-12-15T14:23:07Z beach: And you can come here and ask.
2020-12-15T14:23:59Z nij: _death, phoe thanks :D
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2020-12-15T14:24:50Z freedddd: Thanks. Will give it a try and reevaluate my approach if it turns out to be too much
2020-12-15T14:25:01Z beach: Sounds good.  Good luck!
2020-12-15T14:27:41Z Nilby: Every time I thought I should use :allocation :class slots, it turned out I didn't really want that. It happened mostly when I first starting using Lisp instead of C++.
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2020-12-15T14:28:31Z beach: Yes, it is often better to just define a method.
2020-12-15T14:29:46Z freedddd: Yeah I'm not quite sure myself. I'm trying to create "views" which contain references to underlying data structures based on certain specification (e.g. "a b c" points to structures a, b and c, while "a d" points to structures a and d). The idea is that several subclasses may share the same view (e.g. "a b c") but implement a different generic run method that acts differently.
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2020-12-15T14:33:33Z freedddd: Now that you're mentioning it, I could instead have a single class and several differently named methods instead (rather than the generic run method). Should be easier to implement..
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2020-12-15T14:36:14Z Nilby: Also keep in mind that a generic run method can specialize on various classes. (run a b c) (run a x y) (run b c d) can all be totally different methods, or not.
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2020-12-15T14:37:34Z Nilby: And even call and combine eachother in different ways.
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2020-12-15T14:41:23Z freedddd: I might have explained it a bit poorly. Imagine a, b, c, etc. are just arrays with values belonging to some "entity" defined by an ID. Then I want some class that acts on values of all common entities (defined by IDs) across several such arrays. That's where the idea of a view comes in, such that I don't have to rediscover and duplicately store which entities and values each class should operate on. However the logic in the run method
2020-12-15T14:41:23Z freedddd: may operate differently (but should only take the class instance as an argument in the case I was planning on).
2020-12-15T14:42:08Z freedddd: Trying to implement a dreaded entity-component system for a simple game engine
2020-12-15T14:42:46Z jackdaniel: isn't it that you want presentations in your system?
2020-12-15T14:43:12Z freedddd: jackdaniel: I'm not sure what you mean by presentations
2020-12-15T14:43:16Z jackdaniel: a presentation is an object, that associates arbitrary object with a presentation type (of course the object must be presentation-typep to said presentation type)
2020-12-15T14:43:45Z jackdaniel: it is a concept embraced by clim, but explained earlier
2020-12-15T14:43:54Z jackdaniel: give me a second, I'll look for a link
2020-12-15T14:44:14Z freedddd: Sounds about right
2020-12-15T14:44:17Z Nilby: Yes. The idea of presentations is very cool.
2020-12-15T14:44:35Z jackdaniel: http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AITR-794.pdf
2020-12-15T14:44:54Z jackdaniel: this is a description of the concept
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2020-12-15T14:45:20Z jackdaniel: CLIM incorporates presentations as one of its core abstractions
2020-12-15T14:45:20Z freedddd: The idea was: Combination of component types (e.g. "a b c") -> view with shared storage -> implement subclass which defines the generic run method to act on entities which have component types a, b and c
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2020-12-15T14:46:20Z loke[m]: jackdaniel: eugene cicarelli. Why does that name ring a bell?
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2020-12-15T14:46:22Z loke[m]: Was he on IRC or something?
2020-12-15T14:46:24Z jackdaniel: this may be of some interest: http://www.jucs.org/jucs_14_20/an_implementation_of_clim/jucs_14_20_3358_3369_moore.pdf
2020-12-15T14:46:46Z jackdaniel: beats me, I've read the paper because I was grokking CLIM
2020-12-15T14:47:04Z loke[m]: I'm sure I've communicated with him in the past.
2020-12-15T14:47:25Z Nilby: Totally awesome paper. I'm suprised I haven't read it.
2020-12-15T14:47:53Z jackdaniel: very useful, because presentations in the clim spec are simply described, without explaining how useful concept that may be
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2020-12-15T15:02:37Z freedddd: From some skimreading presentations isn't exactly what I was looking for. Interesting resources nevertheless :)
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2020-12-15T15:05:11Z Bike: yeah, this is interesting, thanks for linking
2020-12-15T15:05:21Z jackdaniel: sure
2020-12-15T15:06:48Z Nilby: I guess I knew the contents of the Moore paper already, but the Ciccarelli paper really explores the foundations of lispm/emacs style of UI.
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2020-12-15T15:15:44Z beach: I had no idea Tim had published his work as a journal paper.
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2020-12-15T15:32:54Z freedddd: What is the term for things prefixed with colon in CL? E.g. :thing
2020-12-15T15:33:46Z Nilby: A keyword, which is also a just symbol in the keyword package.
2020-12-15T15:34:06Z freedddd: Ah of course. Thank you.
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2020-12-15T16:53:57Z aeth: :foo is short for 'keyword:foo
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2020-12-15T16:58:33Z aeth: (list :buffalo ':buffalo keyword:buffalo 'keyword:buffalo ::buffalo '::buffalo keyword::buffalo 'keyword::buffalo) => (:BUFFALO :BUFFALO :BUFFALO :BUFFALO :BUFFALO :BUFFALO :BUFFALO :BUFFALO)
2020-12-15T16:58:44Z aeth: using a perfectly valid sentence as an example... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo
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2020-12-15T17:00:56Z White_Flame: :foo is short for keyword:foo, unquoted.  which would then evaluate to itself
2020-12-15T17:02:14Z freedddd: neat
2020-12-15T17:02:14Z entre-parenteses: aeth: what a sentence :D
2020-12-15T17:05:20Z aeth: The other one is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_while_John_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_had_a_better_effect_on_the_teacher
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2020-12-15T17:06:46Z aeth: either much better than just mindlessly repeating "foo"
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2020-12-15T17:09:45Z entre-parenteses: O_O
2020-12-15T17:09:57Z entre-parenteses: That's the English language for you, I guess...
2020-12-15T17:10:06Z aeth: that's recursion
2020-12-15T17:10:28Z entre-parenteses: Ah, interesting point!  I hadn't thought of it in those terms.
2020-12-15T17:11:13Z aeth: sentences like those exists for the same reason that if you balance the parentheses at the end, this is going to be valid, no matter how long it is: (+ 1 2 (+ 3 (+ 4 (+ 5 6 7 (+ 8 (+ 9 (+ 10 ...
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2020-12-15T17:13:51Z entre-parenteses: Well that makes more sense.  I guess I never thought of natural language from a mathematical perspective.  Thanks for helping me expand my mind. :)
2020-12-15T17:14:22Z aeth: This is #lisp so we usually are here because we want to avoid complicated grammars. :-)
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2020-12-15T17:21:53Z pyc: hey sjl. would you please share your Vim + Vlime setup again? do you have the startup script or ~/.vimrc shared somewhere?
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2020-12-15T17:55:49Z freedddd: How would you get all keys of an alist? loop and collect?
2020-12-15T17:58:11Z scymtym: (map 'list #'car alist) is one way
2020-12-15T17:59:25Z jackdaniel: (mapcar #'car car) ; if your list is named car :)
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2020-12-15T17:59:47Z freedddd: Thank you!
2020-12-15T18:05:47Z sjl: pyc: my vimrc is at https://hg.stevelosh.com/dotfiles/file/tip/vim/vimrc but here be dragons
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2020-12-15T18:06:33Z sjl: pyc: lisp/vlime section starts at https://hg.stevelosh.com/dotfiles/file/tip/vim/vimrc#l913 and uses some of the wrapper scripts in my ~/bin like https://hg.stevelosh.com/dotfiles/file/tip/bin/sbcl-vlime
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2020-12-15T18:08:50Z sjl: some of this is definitely outdated, e.g. I use vlime's disassemble key instead of schlepping a (disassemble ...) form to the debugger.  I should probably clean it up at some point.
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2020-12-15T18:14:49Z pyc: sjl: wow! that's a lot of setup work in .vimrc. so if I understand it right, you don't use \rr to connect Vlime to Swank.
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2020-12-15T18:16:03Z sjl: That's correct, I don't use Vlime to start up the Lisp process, I do it myself (via sbcl-vlime, usually but not always running inside a Neovim terminal buffer).
2020-12-15T18:16:34Z sjl: The whole start-a-lisp-process-from-within Vlime has always felt too magic to me.  I like managing the Lisp process myself and then just telling Vlime to connect to it.
2020-12-15T18:16:38Z pyc: sjl: Is NeoRepl something you have defined or is it defined by NeoVim?
2020-12-15T18:17:05Z sjl: Ah, that's a little wrapper I wrote https://hg.stevelosh.com/dotfiles/file/tip/vim/bundle/neorepl/
2020-12-15T18:17:42Z pyc: sjl: makes a lot of sense now. thanks for sharing
2020-12-15T18:17:43Z sjl: The only thing I use it for on the Lisp side is sending `(ql:quickload ...)` forms to the REPL.  I probably don't even need that TBH, I could probably do that through Vlime now that I think about it.
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2020-12-15T19:59:31Z berchn: Has anyone on the CFFI team had a chance to checkout MR #171 on GitHub?
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2020-12-16T01:03:08Z nij: For my need so far, I find DEFSTRUCT nice enough. However, CLOS seems to be the full-fledge + superior stuff one ultimately should use. It is a bit involving though. Would someone explain (just a bit) what I am missing by using DEFSTRUCT but not CLOS?
2020-12-16T01:04:27Z no-defun-allowed: Arguably structure-classes are part of CLOS, as is any other class, but standard-classes allow for multiple inheritance, and the accessor names provided are generic functions.
2020-12-16T01:04:31Z Bike: multiple inheritance, more control over accessor names, ability to extend the object system, uhhhhh what else
2020-12-16T01:04:49Z Bike: yeah generic accessors is a big one
2020-12-16T01:05:04Z no-defun-allowed: You can also subclass standard-class to work with the meta-object protocol, which in the words of Tony Visconti, "fucks with the fabric of time".
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2020-12-16T01:06:54Z Bike: oh and you can redefine classes
2020-12-16T01:06:58Z Bike: that's pretty nice
2020-12-16T01:07:06Z no-defun-allowed: That is also convenient, yes.
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2020-12-16T01:15:28Z nij: wow i have no idea what these means
2020-12-16T01:15:41Z nij: just learned about generic functions, but pretty much it..
2020-12-16T01:15:59Z nij: I mean.. I know what they mean, but I cannot tell why they are good.
2020-12-16T01:16:11Z nij: Perhaps I need to get involved in some projects that naturally require those.
2020-12-16T01:19:05Z no-defun-allowed: You can use generic functions with structure classes, but supposing you have (defstruct thing foo) then THING-FOO is not generic. The THING-FOO generated by (defclass thing () ((foo ... :accessor thing-foo))) is generic.
2020-12-16T01:22:04Z oni-on-ion: however making structs makes classes
2020-12-16T01:23:13Z no-defun-allowed: You also get CHANGE-CLASS with standard instances, which has its uses.
2020-12-16T01:27:27Z nij: I have recorded the buzzwords.. will learn.
2020-12-16T01:27:34Z nij: Sorry folks @@"
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2020-12-16T01:38:48Z mfiano: CLOS is better for prototyping, which falls under just about all of the reasons above
2020-12-16T01:38:55Z mfiano: shared-initialize, and therfor initialize-instance etc and the big ones for me.
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2020-12-16T02:49:25Z aeth: it's for polymorphism
2020-12-16T02:49:45Z aeth: (whatever 42) vs. (foo-whatever 42) and (bar-whatever 42) and (baz-whatever 42)
2020-12-16T02:50:19Z aeth: There are other ways to get what you want, including libraries that implement alternative generic systems, but probably just something like a TYPECASE.
2020-12-16T02:50:45Z no-defun-allowed: You can specialise on structure-classes.
2020-12-16T02:50:59Z aeth: Note, though, that a TYPECASE isn't as flexible since adding to it requires recompiling the function.
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2020-12-16T02:51:24Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: yes, and you can also get foo-whatever, bar-whatever, and baz-whatever through things other than structures
2020-12-16T02:51:31Z aeth: It's harder to get one WHATEVER, though
2020-12-16T02:51:40Z aeth: Without DEFGENERIC/DEFMETHOD, I mean
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2020-12-16T02:55:50Z thmprover: Say, is there any subtleties I should be aware of with ABCL?
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2020-12-16T02:56:28Z thmprover: I may be forced to use a language targetting the JVM, and I think ABCL may be fun to work with...assuming, y'know, it doesn't have any horrible gotchas.
2020-12-16T02:57:13Z no-defun-allowed: To my knowledge, there aren't any problems with ABCL. On the contrary, it helped me find bugs in my code, as I relied on some behaviour (somewhere in the MOP) that other implementations had.
2020-12-16T02:57:53Z srandon111: no-defun-allowed, don't do that
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2020-12-16T03:02:49Z no-defun-allowed: srandon111: Yes, I try not to do that.
2020-12-16T03:04:07Z aeth: I suppose the main problem with an obscure implementation like ABCL is that by the time you intersect a lot of libraries if you have dozens, even though they all support many implementations, you'll probably wind up with just SBCL and CCL and maybe ECL as supported implementations.
2020-12-16T03:05:00Z aeth: The likelihood of every dependency-of-dependency supporting ABCL (once such a list grows to hundreds) is low
2020-12-16T03:05:15Z aeth: CLISP has similar issues here, even though it was incredibly popular 10 years ago.
2020-12-16T03:06:09Z thmprover: Well, I'm probably going to have to interop with the Java ecosystem; the other guy wants to use Scala, so I'm trying to meet him half way.
2020-12-16T03:06:32Z no-defun-allowed: There aren't that many libraries that don't have a #-(or sbcl clozure) ... if they do implementation-specific stuff.
2020-12-16T03:06:58Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: everything has to *work*, though.
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2020-12-16T03:10:42Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: My game engine's probably one of the worst cases because it has to FFI, but a long time ago I tested it in Roswell on basically every implementation (it doesn't have MKCL and I didn't test the commercial ones) and it only ran in SBCL, CCL, and ECL... and in ECL it ran so slowly that it was a slideshow.
2020-12-16T03:11:36Z aeth: Also, a lot of the time the #-(or sbcl clozure) path isn't just a slow path, it just plain doesn't work.
2020-12-16T03:13:49Z aeth: The most notable is probably bordeaux-threads, whose portable path mostly seems to be implemented as ERRORs, but fortunately that one in particular runs on most implementations.
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2020-12-16T03:30:01Z moon-child: aeth: isn't there a portable cffi abstraction thingy?
2020-12-16T03:34:20Z aeth: moon-child: Yes
2020-12-16T03:37:43Z aeth: moon-child: But CFFI itself is rarely the only library used. For instance, while CFFI supports CLISP, static-vectors (a library for an easier way to do foreign arrays with CFFI) does not. That's not the only implementation that it doesn't support, either.
2020-12-16T03:38:30Z aeth: Now intersect the supported implementation of every library that's a dependency (and CFFI stuff just make it more likely for this to be the case) and you'll probably just wind up with SBCL and CCL once you add enough.
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2020-12-16T03:40:06Z aeth: On the one hand, it's unlikely. On the other, if you aren't selective about dependencies-of-dependencies, then you can easily wind up with enough to make the improbable probable.
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2020-12-16T03:44:18Z aeth: ABCL doesn't seem to be that bad in library support, though. It supports the example library (static-vectors) and it supports package-local-nicknames (which is probably the most likely thing to exclude niche implementations)
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2020-12-16T03:54:51Z Aurora_v_kosmose: Any semi-obvious reason uiop:getenv would be unable to get any variables when compiled into an executable?
2020-12-16T03:58:20Z Aurora_v_kosmose: I'm going to assume my copies of asdf/uiop are outdated, sb-ext:posix-getenv works just fine.
2020-12-16T03:58:34Z Aurora_v_kosmose: So much for portable APIs though.
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2020-12-16T04:26:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-16T05:15:18Z srandon111: Hello beach!!!!
2020-12-16T05:15:23Z srandon111 hugs beach!
2020-12-16T05:16:40Z srandon111 tells beach to prepare some breakfast
2020-12-16T05:19:09Z srandon111 asks where is beach 
2020-12-16T05:19:33Z beach: Bordeaux.
2020-12-16T05:19:53Z srandon111: beach, cool!
2020-12-16T05:20:04Z srandon111: beach, let's prepare some breakfast in lisp
2020-12-16T05:24:50Z ldbeth`: good afternnon
2020-12-16T05:25:04Z beach: Hello ldbeth`.
2020-12-16T05:26:23Z srandon111: ldbeth`, where are you ??? afternoon ?
2020-12-16T05:26:30Z srandon111: i was having breakfast with beach
2020-12-16T05:27:23Z ldbeth`: srandon111: GPT+8
2020-12-16T05:27:31Z srandon111: ldbeth`, damn
2020-12-16T05:27:37Z srandon111: japan?
2020-12-16T05:27:41Z srandon111: or something like that
2020-12-16T05:27:46Z ldbeth`: china
2020-12-16T05:27:48Z srandon111: some russian republic ldbeth`
2020-12-16T05:27:51Z srandon111: china?
2020-12-16T05:27:56Z srandon111: that's crazy
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2020-12-16T05:28:31Z beach: srandon111: There are people from all over here.  You'll learn after a while who is where.
2020-12-16T05:28:36Z srandon111: ldbeth`, well we were having breakfast, do you want to join  ?
2020-12-16T05:28:55Z srandon111 offers breakfast to ldbeth` and some jiao zi
2020-12-16T05:28:56Z ldbeth`: sure , why not
2020-12-16T05:29:08Z srandon111: ldbeth`, jiao zi is my favorite food
2020-12-16T05:29:20Z beach: Let's stick to the topic, please.
2020-12-16T05:29:41Z srandon111: beach, wait which topic? we were talking about our breakfast
2020-12-16T05:29:47Z srandon111: no discussion was ongoing
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2020-12-16T05:30:23Z easye: We try to restrict ourselves to discussing Common Lisp here.
2020-12-16T05:30:41Z easye: We tyr to use #lispcafe for more pure socializing.
2020-12-16T05:31:40Z srandon111: easye, ok thanks for suggestion
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2020-12-16T05:34:28Z beach: So, apparently, I started writing SICL FORMAT some 12 years ago, and I am only now getting prepared to use it as native SICL code.  I am looking for an experienced Lisper who might want to extract this module to a separate repository, maintain it, supply the code for the remaining directives, document it, etc.
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2020-12-16T05:35:07Z beach: My coding standard have changed the past 12 years, so there may be some updates as well, even to code that is working.
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2020-12-16T05:35:38Z beach: FORMAT was one of the first modules I wrote, I think.
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2020-12-16T05:38:36Z srandon111: beach, what's SICL ?
2020-12-16T05:39:00Z beach: minion: Please tell srandon111 about SICL.
2020-12-16T05:39:00Z minion: srandon111: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2020-12-16T05:39:02Z no-defun-allowed: minion: tell srandon111 about SICL
2020-12-16T05:39:10Z no-defun-allowed: 😳
2020-12-16T05:39:34Z srandon111: thanks minion
2020-12-16T05:39:41Z beach: minion: Thanks!
2020-12-16T05:39:42Z minion: no problem
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2020-12-16T05:45:44Z beach: It looks like the entire FORMAT module is around 2kLOC, comments excluded, so it's not very big.  But it needs to be split up into smaller files, perhaps one file per directive.
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2020-12-16T05:48:16Z lotuseater: beach: did you get the ideas on how to write all SICL code from looking at other implementations? (may be a bit rhetorical question)
2020-12-16T05:48:41Z lotuseater: yes i have format.lisp file open, a big one :)
2020-12-16T05:48:48Z beach: Yeah.
2020-12-16T05:49:18Z beach: lotuseater: Only very briefly.  But I knew that my ideas weren't going to be acceptable to maintainers of existing implementations, so there was only one option.
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2020-12-16T05:50:54Z lotuseater: yes ok, very impressive knowing the whole language in so much depth
2020-12-16T05:51:09Z beach: lotuseater: Even the implementation that is bootstrapped using essentially only an existing Common Lisp implementation, i.e. SBCL, has a compiler that is written without the use of generic functions or standard classes (or so I have been told).
2020-12-16T05:51:59Z beach: And I wanted to use first-class global environments, which is another radical departure from how existing implementations work.
2020-12-16T05:52:24Z beach: lotuseater: Don't think for a second I knew it all when I started. :)
2020-12-16T05:52:55Z lotuseater: ok, so there's still hope for me :)
2020-12-16T05:53:12Z beach: Yes, give it a decade or two.
2020-12-16T05:53:15Z lotuseater: what is this acclimation the sicl-format.asd file states to depend on?
2020-12-16T05:53:41Z beach: It's a little thing that allows you to internationalize things, like error messages, etc.
2020-12-16T05:54:45Z lotuseater: yes and in three decades I can work with you all on the first real AI which then enslaves humanity ^^'
2020-12-16T05:54:52Z lotuseater: ah okay
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2020-12-16T05:55:06Z beach: I haven't had time to work on it very much, but the ambition is to provide functionality for end-user applications, so that they can just say "present this value as an oven temperature" or "present this value as an ambient temperature", and the library will figure out the unit, and the precision.
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2020-12-16T05:55:57Z beach: Like you don't want your application to say "Then set your oven to 274.2342355°C"
2020-12-16T05:57:08Z beach: Oven temperature in °C is usually rounded to 5°C, and may 10°F.  Ambient temperature to an even number, both for °C and °F.
2020-12-16T05:57:40Z beach: So you can't use the same code for the two kinds of temperature.
2020-12-16T05:57:40Z lotuseater: haha yes our oven just has marked 50 Kelvin steps ^^
2020-12-16T05:58:02Z lotuseater: i see
2020-12-16T05:58:04Z ramenbytes: Isn't that the same as 50 centigrade steps?
2020-12-16T05:58:07Z beach: Same thing for (say) driving distance.
2020-12-16T05:58:24Z beach: lotuseater: It is usually 5° steps for °C.
2020-12-16T05:58:32Z lotuseater: will the sicl format be extensible? or did i miss something?
2020-12-16T05:58:43Z beach: Actually, you are right, maybe it's really 25°C.
2020-12-16T05:58:55Z lotuseater: ramenbytes: yes it is, but Kelvin is basic physical unit :P
2020-12-16T05:59:01Z beach: lotuseater: Oh yes, definitely.
2020-12-16T05:59:16Z ramenbytes: lotuseater: Fair.
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2020-12-16T05:59:43Z lotuseater: that's great, so documentation should state in a reasonable way the interface
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2020-12-16T06:00:00Z beach: lotuseater: Are you talking about FORMAT now?
2020-12-16T06:00:05Z beach: If so, yes, definitely.
2020-12-16T06:00:10Z lotuseater: yes
2020-12-16T06:00:48Z lotuseater: as long as the standard is there as specified nothing stops from extensibility to have
2020-12-16T06:01:00Z beach: This FORMAT module is very likely unique in its implementation, because it uses standard classes and generic functions.  Even the PROGN method combination apparently.
2020-12-16T06:01:33Z ramenbytes: beach: What drives that approach?
2020-12-16T06:01:44Z beach: ramenbytes: "drives"?
2020-12-16T06:02:01Z ramenbytes: beach: Sorry, what is the motivation for the unique approach.
2020-12-16T06:02:19Z beach: It seemed like the best way to do it.
2020-12-16T06:02:48Z lotuseater: never used PROGN mc yet, but i think i know how it works
2020-12-16T06:02:56Z beach: ramenbytes: As it turns out, I am unable to keep in mind a subset of Common Lisp to use for each module, so I just decided to make it possible to use the full language for each one.
2020-12-16T06:03:21Z ramenbytes: beach: haha, that certainly wipes out the issue.
2020-12-16T06:03:44Z beach: ramenbytes: It made bootstrapping a bit harder :)
2020-12-16T06:03:53Z beach: But I think I figure that part out.
2020-12-16T06:04:08Z ramenbytes: beach: I guessed as much. What were the sticky parts?
2020-12-16T06:04:35Z beach: Making things like (defclass t () () (:metaclass built-in-class)) operational.
2020-12-16T06:04:49Z beach: But it has already paid off.
2020-12-16T06:04:53Z ramenbytes: That has circularity issues right?
2020-12-16T06:05:22Z beach: Yes, built-in-class is a subclass of class, metaobject, standard-object, and T.
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2020-12-16T06:05:48Z ramenbytes: Ah, I need to study my MOP.
2020-12-16T06:05:50Z beach: clhs built-in-class
2020-12-16T06:05:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_built_.htm
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2020-12-16T06:06:43Z beach: So for built-in-class to exist, T must already exist.
2020-12-16T06:08:01Z lotuseater: and how is the class for T basically defined?
2020-12-16T06:08:01Z beach: I suspect most Common Lisp implementations use (a possibly modified version of) PCL.
2020-12-16T06:08:31Z beach: lotuseater: I just showed you: (defclass t () () (:metaclass built-in-class))
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2020-12-16T06:09:05Z lotuseater: oh sorry, i was blind
2020-12-16T06:09:24Z beach: And PCL is really kludgey when it comes to bootstrapping and avoiding metacircularity problems.  So I wanted something more idiomatic.
2020-12-16T06:09:36Z ramenbytes: lotuseater: I missed that too.
2020-12-16T06:10:05Z ramenbytes: beach: I've heard PCL has some inefficiencies in it. Does that come from the kludges?
2020-12-16T06:10:34Z lotuseater: could you give me a hint what PCL is in this context?
2020-12-16T06:10:35Z beach: ramenbytes: I suspect what you have heard is that the generic dispatch is slow.  T
2020-12-16T06:10:46Z beach: That's why I invented a better technique.
2020-12-16T06:10:58Z ramenbytes: lotuseater: Portable Common Loops I think.
2020-12-16T06:11:05Z beach: Yes, "Portable Common Loops"
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2020-12-16T06:11:26Z lotuseater: ahhh, now i get it
2020-12-16T06:11:35Z beach: A mostly-portable library that allows a pre-ANSI Common Lisp implementation to "bolt on" CLOS.
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2020-12-16T06:11:52Z ldbeth`: and Common Loops was one of the popular Object systems pre ANSI
2020-12-16T06:12:02Z beach: But I wanted to start with CLOS so that I could use its features for the rest of the system.
2020-12-16T06:12:25Z ramenbytes: beach: Is your technique detailed in one of the papers from the SICL repo?
2020-12-16T06:12:27Z beach: So that I can write (defclass symbol () ((%name ...) (%package ...)))
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2020-12-16T06:12:54Z beach: ramenbytes: Yes, the dispatch technique is documented.
2020-12-16T06:13:09Z beach: The bootstrapping technique, not so much (yet).
2020-12-16T06:13:21Z ramenbytes: Cool, I think found the dispatch paper.
2020-12-16T06:13:27Z beach: There is a paper, but I fear it is incomprehensible.
2020-12-16T06:13:43Z beach: [the one about bootstrapping, I mean]
2020-12-16T06:13:44Z ramenbytes: Guess I'll find out.
2020-12-16T06:13:54Z ramenbytes: Ah, I thought you meant the dispatch.
2020-12-16T06:14:07Z beach: No, that one should be straightforward.
2020-12-16T06:15:26Z ramenbytes: Ok, I'll add to my reading list.
2020-12-16T06:15:44Z beach: I presented it at ILC in Montreal, and the chairman (having not read the paper) told me that my technique was "trivail" and merely "an inline cache".
2020-12-16T06:16:15Z beach: But the point of the paper is how to manage the inline cache so that obsolete instances do not have to be tested for explicitly.
2020-12-16T06:18:29Z beach: Unfortunately, I am a slow thinker, so I didn't have the presence to counter something like "did you even read the paper, buddy?"
2020-12-16T06:19:43Z ldbeth`: gg
2020-12-16T06:21:03Z ramenbytes: From a quick scan of the paper, you compare an id number in the instance with the official class id?
2020-12-16T06:24:00Z ldbeth`: with the custom hashtable optimization, with 2 min 238,000 words can be loaded
2020-12-16T06:24:30Z ldbeth`: for the spell checker
2020-12-16T06:27:38Z ldbeth`: i think sxhash might be too slow if only eq comparsion is considered
2020-12-16T06:27:43Z beach: ramenbytes: Yes, and the point is that the class ID is a small constant in compiled code and the instance ID is in a register.
2020-12-16T06:28:26Z beach: ramenbytes: Whereas PCL uses a (specialized) hash table in memory, which was probably fine at the time it was invented.
2020-12-16T06:28:54Z ramenbytes: Hmm, that does sound faster.
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2020-12-16T06:29:12Z ramenbytes: The registers I mean.
2020-12-16T06:29:28Z beach: ramenbytes: The thing is that all existing Common Lisp implementations started life many decades ago, and the reality of processor speed vs memory speed has changed since.
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2020-12-16T06:30:30Z ramenbytes: beach: So it's gone from memory being faster to the processor being faster?
2020-12-16T06:30:48Z ldbeth`: is there a function that can get object id on CCL?
2020-12-16T06:30:56Z beach: I guess at the time, the speed was comparable.  Now the difference is a factor 10-100.
2020-12-16T06:31:32Z ramenbytes: I can see why you wanted an alternative.
2020-12-16T06:31:40Z beach: Thanks.
2020-12-16T06:31:55Z beach: So taking an existing Common Lisp implementation and adapting it to the reality of modern processors would be even harder than to start from scratch.
2020-12-16T06:32:09Z beach: Especially given all the other things I wanted to change as well.
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2020-12-16T06:32:47Z beach: First-class global environments, using more generic functions and standard classes, ...
2020-12-16T06:33:07Z ramenbytes: Yeah, lots of neat stuff.
2020-12-16T06:33:44Z beach: Thanks!
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2020-12-16T06:34:00Z ramenbytes: Thanks for doing the work on it.
2020-12-16T06:34:11Z ramenbytes: Got to go, thanks for the info.
2020-12-16T06:34:15Z beach: Take care.
2020-12-16T06:34:26Z ramenbytes: You too.
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2020-12-16T06:58:03Z lotuseater: |=
2020-12-16T06:58:17Z lotuseater: oh sry wrong window o.O
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2020-12-16T07:23:45Z lotuseater: how are your experiences translating c code to CL?
2020-12-16T07:24:50Z beach: Just in order to execute it, or in order to maintain the Common Lisp version?
2020-12-16T07:28:58Z beach: For the former, froggey came up with a solution that is used to execute C code in Mezzano.
2020-12-16T07:28:58Z lotuseater: hm i mean the process of translating
2020-12-16T07:29:09Z lotuseater: let's say the C code doesn't change
2020-12-16T07:29:17Z lotuseater: oh cool
2020-12-16T07:29:28Z beach: lotuseater: Sure, but it depends on whether you want the result to be readable and modifiable.
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2020-12-16T07:29:41Z lotuseater: yes you're right
2020-12-16T07:30:02Z beach: What froggey did, does not address that point, I think.
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2020-12-16T07:31:18Z lotuseater: a friend of mine told me yesterday (while we talked about X window managers like xmonad and stumpwm) that actual X support will run out in the future, so i'm peeking into wayland codebase (which seems quite readable) and tried translating some stuff to get a feeling
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2020-12-16T07:32:36Z lotuseater: my C knowledge is quite nonexistent but gets better. i mean we there is CLX so it would be nice to have wayland in CL in the future, and it does not seem so heavy
2020-12-16T07:39:24Z jackdaniel: I think that there is a wayland client in cl
2020-12-16T07:39:28Z jackdaniel: but I don't remember details
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2020-12-16T07:39:53Z lotuseater: ah good to know
2020-12-16T07:40:12Z lotuseater: i was just experimenting :)
2020-12-16T07:40:18Z jackdaniel: also if I were to write a wayland client, I'd look straight into the wire protocol
2020-12-16T07:40:43Z jackdaniel: afair it is quite language agnostic, so you won't be bothered with C-imposed boilerplate
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2020-12-16T07:41:47Z lotuseater: yes you're right ... it's exhausting. had the same some days ago with (horrible written) numerical stuff
2020-12-16T07:42:19Z jackdaniel: the only non-portable part I think was opening the unix socket, but that's covered by usocket (via implementation-specific extensions)
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2020-12-16T07:43:08Z jackdaniel: binary-types would come handy I suppose (to define "packets"/"messages" or whatever they call them)
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2020-12-16T07:43:42Z lotuseater: okay thx, see ya
2020-12-16T07:45:55Z splittist: Wayland string primitives seem to have a length prefix and a NUL terminator...
2020-12-16T07:46:22Z lotuseater: and is that good or bad?
2020-12-16T07:47:34Z splittist: Just a thing. I guess it's indicative of the C-ness of the modern world. X had symbols and was very lispy (for obvious reasons).
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2020-12-16T08:39:34Z nij: Nontechnical question.. I'm obviously stepping toward the cult of lisp (if it is). Are there any articles that delicately argue why lisp is not as good?
2020-12-16T08:40:57Z phireh: It wouldn't be hard to find some complaining about the syntax
2020-12-16T08:41:08Z moon-child: nij: I don't see what's nontechnical about that question, but http://winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html
2020-12-16T08:41:25Z nij: They are not using the correct IDE, which AFAIK is probably why lisp is not popular.
2020-12-16T08:42:00Z no-defun-allowed: The History of Smalltalk mentions that Lisp (and Smalltalk for some reason) "eat their young", by making you sometimes stick with an old paradigm because it's sufficiently powerful, instead of making a new paradigm which explains it better.
2020-12-16T08:43:29Z no-defun-allowed: moon-child: I think it's a very bad problem that fragmentation is seen as a problem, when it is all but necessary to actually get anywhere; and that it is seen (particularly by Winestock) as preventing cooperation or communication.
2020-12-16T08:43:59Z nij: moon-child: Does this praise lisp in another way, and explain its unpopularity?
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2020-12-16T08:44:07Z phoe: good morning
2020-12-16T08:44:13Z no-defun-allowed: nij: No, and no.
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2020-12-16T08:45:15Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: fragmentation may not be an intrinsic problem, but it is, at least in part, responsible for some of lisp's lack of popularity
2020-12-16T08:45:20Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: nij missed your message
2020-12-16T08:45:33Z no-defun-allowed: I tried my best to throw it into a metaphorical woodchipper with the better part of one chapter of the book I'm writing.
2020-12-16T08:45:43Z nij: errghhh diss my router :(
2020-12-16T08:45:57Z no-defun-allowed: moon-child: The alternative is stagnation, and if that's what we get, then I don't want to write Lisp anymore.
2020-12-16T08:47:39Z nij: @@ so is there any nice complaints
2020-12-16T08:47:55Z nij: (I want to say there's NONE.. cuz I cannot find one.)
2020-12-16T08:48:50Z no-defun-allowed: I can come up with a few complaints, but that is not out of the ordinary for programming languages.
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2020-12-16T08:50:27Z phireh: There are some outdated complaints out there
2020-12-16T08:51:12Z no-defun-allowed: The argument in my book basically goes: Suppose you have a group of people who want to implement something. They have some options, and they have no a priori reason to believe one option is better than the other. Would it be better to pick one option and have everyone work on it to completion, or have everyone prototype implementations of all options, test them, then decide on which was the best?
2020-12-16T08:51:23Z phireh: Like, I found this old paper talking about how CL was too big to have a good implementation but we have a few nowadays
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2020-12-16T08:52:18Z no-defun-allowed: The former case looks good, because hey everyone's working together and they have a complete library. But if there's N options, then there's a N/(N+1) probability they didn't pick the best one, so they likely have to convene to pick another option and try again.
2020-12-16T08:52:49Z moon-child: phireh: cl remains very difficult to implement and very, and that's a valid consideration for some use cases
2020-12-16T08:53:23Z nij: yeah T_T we all know why lisp is not so popular.. sigh
2020-12-16T08:53:31Z nij: and i think that's well captured in /the curse of lisp/
2020-12-16T08:53:33Z moon-child: One of the reasons the c committee chose to reject some features (forget which) was that it would make it harder to implement compilers.  No biggy for gcc/clang/msvc (eqv. sbcl/ccl/lispworks), but problematic for small embedded c compiler vendors
2020-12-16T08:53:43Z nij: too powerful -> less popular
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2020-12-16T08:54:14Z no-defun-allowed: At a wider scale, the latter case is much better, because you get a better idea of the design space. The problem is rounding up all the people, because odds are they don't know each other. But at least, you find that of all the options, most people pick very few options, so it's really not a problem anyway.
2020-12-16T08:54:17Z nij: phireh: oh interesting.
2020-12-16T08:54:26Z nij: that used to be a legit claim?
2020-12-16T08:54:48Z phireh: I mean, it is still a legit claim as moon-child said.
2020-12-16T08:55:06Z no-defun-allowed: It was. I think there was a fear that some features were still tricky to implement on stock hardware without a "sufficiently smart compiler", too.
2020-12-16T08:55:25Z phireh: It's a paper from '84 called A Critique of Common Lisp
2020-12-16T08:55:46Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: funny it was the hardware, rather than the compilers, that proved that wrong
2020-12-16T08:55:54Z moon-child: (though ofc compilers have improved)
2020-12-16T08:56:35Z phireh: Anyhow the language is massive and has tons of redundancy, so it's intimidating at first glance for sure
2020-12-16T08:56:55Z no-defun-allowed: nij: I didn't quite get all of the quote in the book, but "man, your head is haunted; you have bats in your belfry! You’re imagining big things and painting for yourself a whole world of gods that is there for you, a haunted realm to which you are called, an ideal that beckons to you. You have a fixed idea!"
2020-12-16T08:57:45Z beach: I for one think that nij has very strange questions, indicating some worry that I can't figure out what it is.
2020-12-16T08:58:55Z no-defun-allowed: As opposed to minimalist language, I appreciate the redundancy, and sometimes I wish they went further. It would have been amusing to put all of Alexandria in the COMMON-LISP package, but it would be a pain for standardisation.
2020-12-16T08:59:02Z phireh: beach: He probably just doesn't want to look like an evangelist to his programmer friends or something?
2020-12-16T08:59:59Z beach: phireh: Maybe so, but my advice is to avoid trying to push a language to others.  Especially if you don't know the language very well yourself, and even more so if the others very likely don't want to hear it.
2020-12-16T09:00:01Z phoe: I think the best way to not look like an evangelist is not to evangelize
2020-12-16T09:00:06Z no-defun-allowed: Easy enough, don't evangelise. To some extent, you can "let the code speak for itself", and what you gain and lose will be apparent.
2020-12-16T09:00:11Z no-defun-allowed: As phoe and beach said.
2020-12-16T09:00:16Z beach: Exactly.
2020-12-16T09:00:38Z beach: It is much more preferable to do good work that then others might become curious about.
2020-12-16T09:01:05Z beach: Heh, what no-defun-allowed said.
2020-12-16T09:01:08Z phireh: Yea but if someone asks you about a language you use you should warn them about the sharp corners, no?
2020-12-16T09:01:18Z phireh: Anyhow I can get behind the no-evangelizing
2020-12-16T09:01:35Z phoe: sure, but at that point it's answering questions
2020-12-16T09:01:44Z phoe: which is not really preaching
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2020-12-16T09:02:12Z beach: phireh: It is very likely they will give you a blank stare and now know what you are talking about.
2020-12-16T09:02:13Z nij: beach: I'd like to understand a thing by checking all aspects of it. But with Lisp, ho ho ho there's none I found so far.
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2020-12-16T09:02:16Z no-defun-allowed: In my opinion, it is also important to note what you can't seem to express well in the language, and think about how you could make it work. But Lisp is a good building material, and if you find a very compelling reason to write a new language, then you may still find yourself at SLIME (or equivalent) meddling with the bootstrap compiler.
2020-12-16T09:02:17Z phoe: if anything: get to know the language, figure out what's good in it, what's missing, make something useful in it that makes use of the good to fill the missing
2020-12-16T09:02:30Z phoe: nij: none of what you found so far?
2020-12-16T09:02:30Z nij joined #lisp
2020-12-16T09:02:31Z nij: oh shoot did I got logged out again..
2020-12-16T09:02:34Z nij: damn ==
2020-12-16T09:02:39Z phoe: nij: none of what you found so far?
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2020-12-16T09:02:48Z beach: phireh: And given the knowledge about programming and programming languages that nij has displayed so far, if the surrounding people are similar, they definitely won't understand.
2020-12-16T09:02:59Z nij: there's no legit complaints so far..
2020-12-16T09:03:07Z phoe: complaints about Lisp?
2020-12-16T09:04:06Z nij: beach: uh no. I learn programming completely by myself and that's why I look stupider. I would only talk to friends about this if they are at least "well" trained.
2020-12-16T09:04:08Z no-defun-allowed: beach: May I ask, as you've been around the Common Lisp community for much longer than myself, do you think there is really a problem with, I suppose "organising" projects? It seems a bit overblown to me, but things may have changed recently.
2020-12-16T09:05:16Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Tough question.  Compared to with other languages, you mean?
2020-12-16T09:05:32Z phoe: one complaint I've heard it has old and weird and ancient and duplicated operator names for backwards compatibility with languages that are no longer even alive: rplaca, rplacd, nreconc, revappend, pairlis, nsubstitute-if-not and what else
2020-12-16T09:05:32Z nij: Quoted from /curse of lisp/: "[..] even if Lisp is the most expressive language ever, such that it is theoretically impossible to make a more expressive language [..]"
2020-12-16T09:05:51Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I suppose so.
2020-12-16T09:05:59Z nij: How is it theoretically proven? I thought expressiveness isn't a well defined term..
2020-12-16T09:06:13Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I have seen no evidence of any more difficulty with Common Lisp than with other languages.
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2020-12-16T09:06:22Z phoe: another complaint coming from low-level language folk: you have no control over the memory layout whatsoever. you need to the trust implementation about that, or go into the C world.
2020-12-16T09:06:33Z nij: phoe: they can change the name if they like.. it's more like a social issue again @@
2020-12-16T09:06:57Z nij: phoe: this one is legit :D!   But why don't they write assembly instead?
2020-12-16T09:07:05Z no-defun-allowed: I'm sure it's not. At the least, constraint solving and that kinda backtracking is really something you have to write a "compiler" for, as it doesn't fit into an imperative model so well.
2020-12-16T09:07:19Z phireh: phoe: I think you can disable the GC in some implementations, no?
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2020-12-16T09:07:36Z phoe: phireh: I think so, but this doesn't solve the memory layout problem
2020-12-16T09:08:20Z phireh: phoe: Oh, you mean things like optimizing for cache lines?
2020-12-16T09:08:59Z no-defun-allowed: The problem is more that, say, you couldn't have a structure "in" another structure, and you would have a structure with a reference to another structure. It's very nice to have that kind of reference semantics, but annoying for micro-optimisations.
2020-12-16T09:09:41Z beach: Indeed.  Common Lisp dictates sane semantics, but it comes at a "small-ish" cost.
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2020-12-16T09:10:10Z no-defun-allowed has been beginning to think that the real curse is everyone supposing there is a curse (or "social problem", whatever you want to call it) to begin with.
2020-12-16T09:10:40Z beach: Also, it is not really relevant to compare language only with respect to micro optimizations.  The question of programmer productivity and safety of the end result must be taken into account.
2020-12-16T09:10:43Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: that's what I hear jackdaniel saying yesterday
2020-12-16T09:10:48Z phoe: and what I kinda agree with
2020-12-16T09:10:51Z beach: And I think those aspects are more and more important these days.
2020-12-16T09:10:59Z phoe: also what beach said is super important
2020-12-16T09:11:29Z no-defun-allowed: I think the examples given would happen again in other languages. I mean, what stops a group from making N duplicated functions or classes or so on, if they are able to make N domain specific languages or something?
2020-12-16T09:12:00Z phireh: I think Baggers managed to poke into the internals of SBCL to optimize low level graphics code, at least there were videos on it
2020-12-16T09:12:10Z phoe: inside Little Bits of Lisp?
2020-12-16T09:12:54Z nij quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1))
2020-12-16T09:13:02Z phireh: A pile of parens I think he called it
2020-12-16T09:14:10Z no-defun-allowed: Some people write custom VOPs (think: assembler snippets) to micro-optimise on SBCL.
2020-12-16T09:15:05Z beach: And that's a much more sane approach than abandoning all safety by using an intrinsically unsafe language for everything.
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2020-12-16T09:15:45Z phoe: oooh, via VOPs - I see
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2020-12-16T09:20:10Z phireh: I don't know if this is the best place to ask, but anyhow: how would you go around about creating and showing (maybe even editing) .svg files in Common Lisp? I thought about using cl-allegro2 with something like qtools.
2020-12-16T09:20:14Z nij: Any symbolic calculator written in common lisp that deals with algebraic numbers and field of rational functions over them?
2020-12-16T09:20:51Z no-defun-allowed: If your question was just the first seven words, I would say Maxima. But I don't know what the rest of the words mean off the top of my head.
2020-12-16T09:21:44Z nij: Oh maxima is in cl? I will check it out!
2020-12-16T09:21:58Z lotuseater: yes it's the port of macsyma
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2020-12-16T09:24:07Z nij: Oh.. I asked the wrong question. Indeed, maxima is built on top of cl, but the language is specified. I was thinking of a full-fledge calculator that let me builds on top of it using cl.
2020-12-16T09:24:39Z no-defun-allowed: You can write Maxima functions in Lisp, but it's not really how you're supposed to use Maxima.
2020-12-16T09:28:36Z nij: I get that implementing DSL is useful in many cases. But what prevents people to invent their DSLs in a more lispy way @@?
2020-12-16T09:28:46Z phoe: syntax
2020-12-16T09:28:54Z phoe: or personal preferences regarding it
2020-12-16T09:28:59Z treflip: nij: bld-maxima can call Maxima from CL
2020-12-16T09:29:10Z nij: Maybe that's a "bad point" of lisp, in the sense that many purposed cannot be easily written in it?
2020-12-16T09:29:14Z no-defun-allowed: There isn't a "Lispy way" except for what you make of it.
2020-12-16T09:29:16Z phoe: some people claim LOOP isn't lispy because it doesn't have many parens
2020-12-16T09:29:39Z nij: phoe: isn't that legit?
2020-12-16T09:29:41Z phoe: some people claim LOOP is the most lispy because it is an exhibition that Lisp allows you to write arbitrary DSLs that don't have parens
2020-12-16T09:29:51Z phoe: or DSLs that have parens, too
2020-12-16T09:29:56Z phoe: that's why we also have ITERATE
2020-12-16T09:30:15Z phoe: isn't what legit
2020-12-16T09:30:34Z phoe: lisp allows you to easily customize your DSL syntax, that's the whole point
2020-12-16T09:30:34Z nij: I mean.. we clearly need parens.. no? if the goal is not of popularity.
2020-12-16T09:30:43Z phoe: need parens, what for?
2020-12-16T09:30:58Z no-defun-allowed: Today I used fake "infix" operators in a macro.
2020-12-16T09:31:10Z phoe: iteration? not really, as demonstrated by loop
2020-12-16T09:31:53Z no-defun-allowed: That's in fake do-notation, which I used in https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm-networking/-/blob/master/Client/object.lisp#L84
2020-12-16T09:31:58Z phoe: for an overly dramatic example, (loop for x in list-1 for y in list-2 if y collect y else collect x)
2020-12-16T09:32:16Z phoe: it's not entirely in good style but it's not meant to be
2020-12-16T09:32:32Z phoe: it's meant to show that parens aren't a strict requirement for meaningful iteration in LOOP
2020-12-16T09:32:52Z phoe: again, what do you think we need parens for?
2020-12-16T09:32:58Z nij: I think the question "need parens, what for?" is indeed the one that I try to answer upon entering the Lisp world. I still don't have a good answer.
2020-12-16T09:33:29Z phoe: when you are writing Lisp, the answer for that question is obvious - because the core language syntax requires parentheses
2020-12-16T09:33:40Z nij: So far I can only say that the parens are good for clarity.
2020-12-16T09:33:44Z no-defun-allowed: It's equally as valid as any other notation.
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2020-12-16T09:34:14Z phoe: you can't access a slot, bind a variable, or even call a function without parens
2020-12-16T09:34:18Z no-defun-allowed: Gerald Sussman threw that complaint upside down in one presentation, showing how mathematical notation is an absolute lie, but I forgot the name.
2020-12-16T09:34:19Z nij: You break your expression in terms of lots of paren'd forms, which are broken into many paren'd subforms.
2020-12-16T09:34:33Z phoe: but when you write a DSL, you're the regent of your syntax now
2020-12-16T09:35:02Z no-defun-allowed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arMH5GjBwUQ The talk is called "The Role of Programming".
2020-12-16T09:35:23Z nij: no-defun-allowed: what's it about?
2020-12-16T09:35:46Z no-defun-allowed: nij: It's loosely about the many forms of abuse that mathematical notation inflicts on the reader.
2020-12-16T09:36:02Z lotuseater: sussman has no fez on his hat :/
2020-12-16T09:36:04Z nij: phoe: without parens .. not so much clarity
2020-12-16T09:36:39Z phoe: nij: that's a matter of taste. if you prefer your iteration with parens, (ql:quickload :iterate)
2020-12-16T09:36:41Z nij: no-defun-allowed: oh yeah there are too many. One of the main reason is that the best IDE among mathematicians are..
2020-12-16T09:36:42Z phoe: otherwise, stick with loop
2020-12-16T09:36:44Z no-defun-allowed: He goes to call one author "a son of a bitch", for telling the reader that they have not done much to make the book any more readable.
2020-12-16T09:36:45Z nij: papers and pencils.
2020-12-16T09:37:07Z nij: lolll!
2020-12-16T09:37:24Z nij: no-defun-allowed: Sure. I'd used to have that complaint as well, until I started writing my paper.
2020-12-16T09:37:37Z nij: It's very EXPENSIVE to write well in mathematics.
2020-12-16T09:37:59Z no-defun-allowed: The earliest example Sussman gave is cos^2 x = (cos x)^2, but cos^-1 x ≠ (cos x)^-1
2020-12-16T09:38:22Z lotuseater: nij: how do you mean expensive?
2020-12-16T09:38:38Z phoe: you could have your DSL written as #æ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. and that's Turing complete and everything without a single parens. (nitpick: there are brackets.)
2020-12-16T09:38:58Z phoe: and that could be valid Lisp, too, as long as you define a proper dispatch macro for #æ
2020-12-16T09:38:59Z lotuseater: no-defun-allowed: i don't like people writing "ln(x)" instead "log(x)"
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2020-12-16T09:40:09Z nij: no-defun-allowed: Here's an even simpler one:  2*3+7
2020-12-16T09:40:49Z phoe: but I don't know what we are discussing now - the importance of parentheses in general for clarity of written mathematics?
2020-12-16T09:41:01Z nij: phoe: no that's another issue..
2020-12-16T09:41:36Z phoe: Lisp doesn't have problems with operator precedence because it doesn't have operator precedence
2020-12-16T09:41:38Z nij: phoe: I would say you then embed your new language in lisp. But that's not lisp anymore.
2020-12-16T09:41:52Z phoe: yes, it's no longer strictly Lisp at that point
2020-12-16T09:41:58Z phoe: it has its own syntax
2020-12-16T09:42:02Z nij: (ok.. forget about the math stuff, that's another issue. I will still answer them though.)
2020-12-16T09:42:16Z phoe: doesn't matter if it's LOOP, or FORMAT, or the Brainfæck example I posted up above
2020-12-16T09:42:27Z no-defun-allowed: There are a lot of things with Lisp syntax which I couldn't call Lisp with a straight face.
2020-12-16T09:42:35Z nij: phoe: That's my problem with it. I believe lisp syntax is more superior, so why not writing ones DSL in lisp syntax?
2020-12-16T09:42:39Z phoe: that's a domain-specific language, with the "language" bit implying that it has its own syntax.
2020-12-16T09:42:48Z nij: Is it because it takes more work? Or it's not possible.
2020-12-16T09:42:56Z phoe: nij: mostly because some people disagree with your belief that parens are superior everywhere.
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2020-12-16T09:43:11Z phoe: and write their DSLs in a way that they believe is superior for the task at hand.
2020-12-16T09:43:18Z no-defun-allowed: Well, is (moooo-nad (x <- (read ...)) (write x) (return (+ x 2))) Lisp syntax?
2020-12-16T09:43:49Z nij: lotuseater: in number theory, people usually need to write log(log(log(log|x|))). It's nicer to write ln i guess, as papers and pencils are the best IDE for mathematicians so far.
2020-12-16T09:44:29Z nij: lotuseater: Also, "log" has ambiguity.. you need to specify the base. ln = log_{e} for short.
2020-12-16T09:45:16Z phoe: also lispers are kinda spoiled when looking from the broader point of view
2020-12-16T09:45:35Z nij: phoe: Hmm.. I wouldn't disagree with you on that, as I haven't found a legit reason why I feel it's more superior.
2020-12-16T09:45:47Z phoe: "should I have a DSL with parens or without parens" is a luxury compared to "can I have a DSL at all" that some popular programming languages constantly tend to have
2020-12-16T09:45:57Z phoe: nij: figure that out then. you'll find your answers.
2020-12-16T09:46:18Z nij: Take loop for example. (loop for x in list-1 collect x)
2020-12-16T09:46:38Z lotuseater: nij: hm yes, but actually no ;) there is just one logarithm
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2020-12-16T09:47:00Z phoe: (while-collecting (collect) (dolist (x list-1) (collect x)))
2020-12-16T09:47:33Z phoe: that's the loop example written without DSLs
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2020-12-16T09:49:01Z beach: nij: Common Lisp is not about strictly imposing a style on its users.  It is about making life as convenient as possible for them.
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2020-12-16T09:49:22Z nij`: Ohh shoooot :(
2020-12-16T09:49:22Z beach: nij: And LOOP makes many things VERY convenient.
2020-12-16T09:49:41Z no-defun-allowed: Exactly what beach said.
2020-12-16T09:49:58Z nij`: I'm very interested in this. So if someone thinks there's a point, would you please pastebin?
2020-12-16T09:50:17Z nij`: To argue why parens are superior is really one of the main motivation I was here.
2020-12-16T09:50:40Z beach: nij`: Sorry to disappoint you.
2020-12-16T09:50:41Z nij`: See, I was involved in pure math not b/c of math.. but b/c of the language they use seem to have more power.
2020-12-16T09:50:58Z nij`: beach: It's ok.
2020-12-16T09:51:01Z nij quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2020-12-16T09:51:08Z lotuseater: it's about building the right tool for your problem and not having to go by the tools you have
2020-12-16T09:51:17Z nij`: And I really appreciate that you can make some comments.
2020-12-16T09:51:43Z phoe: in other programming languages you usually try to bend the problem you have to try and express it in your language
2020-12-16T09:51:45Z no-defun-allowed: Traditional mathematical notation is frequently more ambiguous than Lisp notation. Occasionally Lisp notation is ambiguous, like how we handle some parts of fancy LOOP, but you have to look hard for it.
2020-12-16T09:52:03Z phoe: in Lisp you often do less of that, and you usually bend the language itself to be able to express the original problem better
2020-12-16T09:52:08Z nij`: phoe: Yes that's because lisp syntax is more expressive.
2020-12-16T09:52:18Z phoe: let's forget about "expressive" for a moment
2020-12-16T09:52:26Z nij`: I'm thinking maybe we can bring this to the next level.
2020-12-16T09:52:31Z beach: nij`: Another piece of evidence for what I am saying is the Common Lisp supports several programming paradigms, like imperative, functional, and, let's call it "generic-function oriented".
2020-12-16T09:52:44Z nij`: So that your DSL is also lispy, which makes it more expressive, on which you can build more again.
2020-12-16T09:52:45Z phoe: Lisp allows you to manipulate the meaning of things that form language syntax; that's not common in other languages
2020-12-16T09:53:02Z no-defun-allowed: phoe: The Early History contradicts that to a bit, saying that if you have such powerful paradigms, you would have problems trying to find where you need to invent a new paradigm.
2020-12-16T09:53:18Z phoe: they are slowwwwwwly catching up with their macro systems, but that's not all that convenient to use when you lack homoiconicity in your language.
2020-12-16T09:53:24Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: what do you mean?
2020-12-16T09:53:36Z no-defun-allowed: I suppose that's either a good or bad thing, depending on if you, the outsider, would think the new paradigm would be easier to use.
2020-12-16T09:53:38Z phoe: what's The Early History?
2020-12-16T09:54:47Z no-defun-allowed: The Early History of Smalltalk <http://worrydream.com/EarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk/>, which mentions the "Let's Burn Our Disk Packs" break the Smalltalk research team took in 1976.
2020-12-16T09:54:53Z nij`: phoe: I can try to make my point by using maxima as an example.
2020-12-16T09:55:25Z nij`: See.. now I want a lispy symbolic calculator and there seems to be little.. if maxima has written in lisp, then I don't have to worry.
2020-12-16T09:55:45Z nij`: Why would I need a lispy maxima? Well, because I need to make use of lisp's expressiveness to build my project.
2020-12-16T09:56:09Z nij`: Maxima does solve a lower level problem. Indeed, they found the right language just to get their stuff done. But how about future development?
2020-12-16T09:56:36Z no-defun-allowed: "... inadequate tools and environments still reshape our thinking in spite of their problems, in part, because we want paradigms to guide our goals. Strong paradigms like LISP and Smalltalk are so compelling that they eat their young: when you look at an application in either of these two systems, they resemble the systems themselves, not a new idea."
2020-12-16T09:56:38Z nij`: This happens especially in math, where the process of abstractions do not end.
2020-12-16T09:57:23Z nij`: So yes, LOOP is very useful, I get it. And if to achieve level-0 loops is the main goal, I'd have nothing to complain.
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2020-12-16T09:57:45Z nij`: But who knows if someone wants to build something on top of LOOP? Wouldn't it be nice if it's lispy and thus more expressive?
2020-12-16T09:58:26Z no-defun-allowed: I don't see what's not Lispy or expressive about LOOP, other than it's not extensible by the user.
2020-12-16T09:58:26Z phoe: or just build in some extension mechanisms into it.
2020-12-16T09:58:26Z nij` is in his constant fear that he is logged out again, when it's too quiet.
2020-12-16T09:59:09Z nij`: phoe: yeah that's maybe what I will do.
2020-12-16T09:59:17Z phoe: going by your definition, SETF is very much not lispy; what if someone wants to build something on top of it?
2020-12-16T09:59:28Z nij`: So my complaint is: why haven't the developer done it ;)?
2020-12-16T09:59:30Z phoe: and the only way of extending it that you have is SETF expansions
2020-12-16T09:59:34Z nij`: (I'm just lazy lol)
2020-12-16T09:59:47Z beach: nij`: They have.
2020-12-16T09:59:53Z phoe: ^
2020-12-16T09:59:57Z nij`: phoe: I understand. But we keep the amount of those special ones minimal.
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2020-12-16T10:00:26Z beach: Oh, you are the "minimal" person.  Now I remember.
2020-12-16T10:00:28Z phoe: remember not to fall into the trap of making everything infinitely extensible and generic
2020-12-16T10:00:46Z no-defun-allowed: I don't remember the "minimal person"; but at this rate I think I have enough context.
2020-12-16T10:00:49Z phoe: because at that point your code will be unusable
2020-12-16T10:01:10Z nij` was caught.
2020-12-16T10:01:46Z nij`: beach: "They have"  <== for what?!
2020-12-16T10:02:05Z phoe: the LOOP implementation used in the majority of modern Lisp implementations is extensible
2020-12-16T10:02:08Z beach: made it extensible.
2020-12-16T10:02:16Z phoe: this functionality just isn't really used.
2020-12-16T10:02:20Z pve: no-defun-allowed: That "Smalltalk and Children" section is great. I kind of admire that they tried to teach it to children.
2020-12-16T10:02:45Z no-defun-allowed: pve: Yes, that was the original intention of Smalltalk, to be taught to children like Logo(?)
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2020-12-16T10:03:15Z nij`: phoe: ?!?! Would you mind providing some pointers?
2020-12-16T10:04:04Z pve: no-defun-allowed: I had read that whole thing before, but completely forgot about it. Thanks for the reminder :)
2020-12-16T10:04:23Z phoe: nij`: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/5f9d19d4aa14bf7a79af90b1f51714267cb5edc8/src/code/loop.lisp
2020-12-16T10:04:48Z nij`: treflip: Have you used bld-maxima? Is it a partial clone? Or I can express any thing I want in maxima in terms of cl syntax?
2020-12-16T10:05:20Z lotuseater: nij`: there's also maxima in julia
2020-12-16T10:05:46Z phoe: see L1847 for a place where all of the individual functionalities are brought together and built into one implementation of CL:LOOP.
2020-12-16T10:05:56Z nij`: julia ain't lisp :'(
2020-12-16T10:06:16Z phoe: write some new functions, hook them in here, bam, you have an extended loop.
2020-12-16T10:06:22Z lotuseater: nij`: hm but a bit of it
2020-12-16T10:06:44Z nij`: phoe: nice!
2020-12-16T10:08:28Z treflip: nij`: it's not a clone, it's just an interface which runs maxima in a separate process
2020-12-16T10:08:51Z treflip: https://github.com/bld/bld-maxima
2020-12-16T10:08:59Z nij`: I'm very happy to hear that. Thank you treflip I will look into it, definitely!
2020-12-16T10:09:11Z nij`: Yes.. it's not so much documented.
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2020-12-16T10:13:26Z treflip: nij`: you can figure out how to use it just by looking at the source code, it's short and has docstrings.
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2020-12-16T11:55:30Z ldb: good evening
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2020-12-16T12:19:57Z saganman: woah
2020-12-16T12:20:06Z saganman: it is evening in my time zone
2020-12-16T12:20:21Z saganman: if you don't mind asking, where are you from ldb?
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2020-12-16T12:38:01Z ldb: saganman: china'
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2020-12-16T12:39:15Z ldb: saganman: your nickname looks familar to me:D
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2020-12-16T12:39:51Z jackdaniel: ldb: your nickname looks familar to me ;_) somewhat reminds me of the symbol aver
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2020-12-16T12:43:03Z ldb: good news, i made my naive spell checking program build a 23700 words dictionary in 10 secs
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2020-12-16T12:43:06Z saganman: ldb: not surprising, I am saganman, someone inspired by Carl Sagan. There are lot of people who are like me and use similar nicks.
2020-12-16T12:43:42Z saganman: ldb, china is cool. I am from india.
2020-12-16T12:43:55Z ldb: and it is already better than #'equal hash table in checking time benchmark
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2020-12-16T12:44:55Z ldb: saganman: ah, i see
2020-12-16T12:45:21Z saganman: ni hao
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2020-12-16T12:46:24Z ldb: 你好
2020-12-16T12:46:40Z saganman: xie xie
2020-12-16T12:46:57Z saganman: that's it, those are the only two phrases I know
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2020-12-16T12:47:05Z saganman: :p
2020-12-16T12:47:36Z saganman: what do you use lisp for btw?
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2020-12-16T12:47:59Z phoe: FYI: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25441664
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2020-12-16T12:50:01Z ldb: i use lisp as a prototyping tool
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2020-12-16T12:51:06Z saganman: I see.
2020-12-16T12:51:27Z kevingal: What sorta data structure are you using for your dictionary, ldb?
2020-12-16T12:51:47Z ldb: kevingal: it's a finite state automata
2020-12-16T12:52:34Z ldb: build from a defstruct with a assoc list slot to indicate next state
2020-12-16T12:54:15Z ldb: for better space usage it can be compressed to a few bitarrays
2020-12-16T12:54:21Z kevingal: Cool, how many states does it end up having?
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2020-12-16T12:55:25Z ldb: for 250,000 words it has about 130,000 states
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2020-12-16T13:00:06Z ldb: https://pastebin.com/LsRH1Dbt
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2020-12-16T13:09:18Z kevingal: Interadesting. I wonder how long it would take to compile a regex that big.
2020-12-16T13:09:47Z _death: may want to check out BK trees ;)
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2020-12-16T13:16:43Z ldb: on 500,000 dictionary the build time is less than 1 min
2020-12-16T13:16:55Z ldb: guess it is usable now
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2020-12-16T13:30:29Z nij: I'm writing a script that should keep a record of user history. The history will be recorded in another separated file.
2020-12-16T13:30:47Z nij: I hope the hisory can be written in common lisp itself.. how to do that cleanly?
2020-12-16T13:31:02Z beach: clhs print
2020-12-16T13:31:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
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2020-12-16T13:32:42Z nij: For example, in #{~/history.cl}, it reads (setf *user-history* '("did this")).
2020-12-16T13:33:12Z nij: But some minutes later, the history file should be updated to:
2020-12-16T13:33:22Z beach: (print '(setf *user-history '("did this")))
2020-12-16T13:33:28Z nij: (setf *user-history* '("did this" "did that"))
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2020-12-16T13:34:06Z nij: And this should be achieve be a clean call: (add-user-history "did that")
2020-12-16T13:34:08Z beach: That's probably not a great way of doing it.  You may have to modify the entire file each time.
2020-12-16T13:34:25Z beach: Store the transactions instead of the final result.
2020-12-16T13:34:34Z jackdaniel: make the collection an adjustable vector, and append (vector-push-back …)
2020-12-16T13:34:39Z nij: beach: yes i don't mind the entire file being modified.
2020-12-16T13:34:47Z beach: Reconstruct the final result when you read the file back.
2020-12-16T13:34:48Z jackdaniel: vector-push-extend *
2020-12-16T13:34:59Z nij: Oh oh that is a better way.. yes.
2020-12-16T13:36:00Z nij: It's probably an overkill, but is there a way to dump a Lisp object to a representation in Lisp?
2020-12-16T13:36:06Z nij: "De-evaluation"?
2020-12-16T13:36:21Z nij: Input: *user-history*
2020-12-16T13:36:22Z phoe: clhs make-load-form
2020-12-16T13:36:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm
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2020-12-16T13:36:36Z phoe: it's kinda sorta the similar thing. but likely not what you want for this case.
2020-12-16T13:36:43Z nij: Output: (setf *user-history* '("did this")
2020-12-16T13:37:54Z nij: Fixed => Output: "(setf *user-history* '("did this"))"
2020-12-16T13:38:06Z nij: phoe: hmmm lemme take a look
2020-12-16T13:38:44Z phoe: nij: also
2020-12-16T13:38:46Z phoe: clhs dribble
2020-12-16T13:38:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dribbl.htm
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2020-12-16T13:41:08Z ldb: if i want to assign each object of a class a unique integer id, and can "free" objects explicitly, how can I keep the largest unique id minimum? (i.e when I traverse those objects, there're no id between 0 and the largest id unused
2020-12-16T13:41:54Z phoe: ldb: is the order between IDs important?
2020-12-16T13:42:00Z ldb: phoe: no
2020-12-16T13:42:13Z phoe: what other parts of the system use these IDs? are they cacheable somewhere else?
2020-12-16T13:42:16Z jackdaniel: must the id be a number?
2020-12-16T13:42:36Z jackdaniel: if not, then (gensym "ID") -- and when "deallocating" setf the slot to nil
2020-12-16T13:42:42Z jackdaniel: to not retain the symbol
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2020-12-16T13:42:52Z ldb: I want to finally make a compact vector to store those objects, indexed by their ids
2020-12-16T13:42:59Z jackdaniel: (but since you talk about 'largest' it's probably a number)
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2020-12-16T13:43:10Z phoe: uh, do you need an index?
2020-12-16T13:43:28Z phoe: I think you do, yes
2020-12-16T13:43:34Z phoe: you can vector-push-extend new instances into the vector just fine
2020-12-16T13:43:43Z phoe: but then you need its index to remove it from the vector in O(1) time
2020-12-16T13:43:51Z jackdaniel: then store them on a list (then removal from the middle is cheap), and in the end serialize to a vector
2020-12-16T13:44:37Z phoe: jackdaniel: there's also a trick where if you have to remove the third element from the vector, copy the last element into the third position, setf the ID of that element to 3, and decf the fill pointer
2020-12-16T13:45:05Z jackdaniel: sure
2020-12-16T13:45:12Z jackdaniel: makes sense
2020-12-16T13:45:33Z jackdaniel: given you may change ids of existing objects
2020-12-16T13:45:46Z ldb: i need the vector to be indexed by ids bcs i need to quickly identify if there's an eq object already in the vector
2020-12-16T13:45:49Z splittist: ldb: if you can free arbitrarily, how can there not be arbitrary gaps? Unless you periodically renumber. Then you've reinvented garbage collection
2020-12-16T13:46:21Z phoe: splittist: you can avoid gaps if each free reorders elements in the vector
2020-12-16T13:46:22Z jackdaniel: won't eq hash table do?
2020-12-16T13:46:31Z jackdaniel: or eql for immediate objects
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2020-12-16T13:49:52Z phoe: ^
2020-12-16T13:49:55Z ldb: i think i can store in eq hash table, then maphash
2020-12-16T13:51:09Z nij: I am testing out 'make-load-form-saving-slots..
2020-12-16T13:51:18Z nij: (make-load-form-saving-slots (list 1 2 3) :slot-names '('xyz)) returns..
2020-12-16T13:51:27Z nij: (SB-PCL::SET-SLOTS (1 2 3) NIL)
2020-12-16T13:51:40Z nij: Why doesn't it mention 'xyz ...?
2020-12-16T13:52:09Z phoe: "make-load-form-saving-slots works for any instance of standard-object or structure-object."
2020-12-16T13:52:25Z nij: Yeah I was mumbling that repeatedly.
2020-12-16T13:52:33Z phoe: where is that standard-object or structure-object in (list 1 2 3)?
2020-12-16T13:53:16Z ldb: well make-load-form is overkill
2020-12-16T13:54:08Z ldb: you can try immitate the Emacs's init.el behavior by load the history file into a gap buffer and do text insertion
2020-12-16T13:54:14Z nij: I thought (list 1 2 3) itself returns a standard object.
2020-12-16T13:54:26Z phoe: nope, it returns a cons cell
2020-12-16T13:54:33Z phoe: which is not a standard object
2020-12-16T13:54:48Z phoe: a standard object is something that is generally created by MAKE-INSTANCE
2020-12-16T13:54:51Z ldb: but something of a builtin-class
2020-12-16T13:55:26Z nij:  From CLHS:   Description: The class standard-object is an instance of standard-class and is a superclass of every class that is an instance of standard-class except itself.
2020-12-16T13:55:49Z phoe: yes
2020-12-16T13:56:01Z phoe: and instances of standard-class are generally created using DEFCLASS
2020-12-16T13:56:02Z Nilby: ldb: what implementation and processor are you running on? Your code ran for me about 1000x quicker.
2020-12-16T13:56:38Z jackdaniel: intel celeron II :)
2020-12-16T13:56:59Z ldb: Nilby: Intel Core i7, 2.2GHZ, Clozure CL on macOS
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2020-12-16T13:57:29Z nij: phoe: how did you know? CLHS doesn't say it right? I was trying to search.
2020-12-16T13:57:31Z Nilby is trying on ccl ..
2020-12-16T13:57:33Z pyc: good discussion on Emacs4CL: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25440690
2020-12-16T13:57:39Z phoe: nij: know what exactly?
2020-12-16T13:57:51Z ldb: SBCL might be slower due to hash table performance on custom test functions
2020-12-16T13:57:58Z nij: What a typical instance of the class standard-object is?
2020-12-16T13:58:19Z phoe: (defclass foo () ()) (make-instance 'foo)
2020-12-16T13:58:40Z phoe: (typep (make-instance 'foo) 'standard-object) ;=> T
2020-12-16T13:59:12Z nij: Oh, by experience.
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2020-12-16T14:00:53Z ldb: Nilby: and forgot to mention, the input file has to be sorted
2020-12-16T14:01:25Z ldb: otherwise it goes wrong
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2020-12-16T14:05:16Z Nilby: Hmmm... still about 1000x faster, on a similar cpu and ccl, but on linux, but now I run out of stack on a 500k file, but it still works on a 100k file.
2020-12-16T14:07:09Z Nilby: It took 0.5 sec for a 100k file on ccl on a i7.
2020-12-16T14:07:30Z Nilby: Maybe you have a much more interesting data?
2020-12-16T14:08:45Z ldb: Nilby: https://github.com/LdBeth/metaprl/blob/main/filter/words.dict this is the data i tested against
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2020-12-16T14:11:27Z Nilby: Ah.. Now it's nice and slow. :) 35 seconds for that one.
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2020-12-16T14:13:31Z Nilby: You should probably try sbcl where it only took 0.4 secs.
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2020-12-16T14:15:15Z ldb: I might end up rewrite it in OCaml. Now I'm confident that this is usable with enough compiler optimization
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2020-12-16T14:16:08Z ldb not my fault that write slow code
2020-12-16T14:16:15Z pfdietz: If you want to serialize lisp objects to external storage efficiently, in a human non-readable form, there are libraries like cl-store.
2020-12-16T14:16:43Z nij: pfdietz: me?
2020-12-16T14:16:53Z pfdietz: Whoever was asking about this sort of thing.
2020-12-16T14:16:59Z nij: I'm still struggling with the two functions phoe told me.
2020-12-16T14:17:06Z ldb: it seems nij wants something like GNU readline
2020-12-16T14:17:27Z pfdietz: Ok
2020-12-16T14:18:15Z ldb: but GNU readline still keeps a data structure for old history
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2020-12-16T14:20:36Z nij: For my current purpose serialization seems ok. Or I can just push vectors..
2020-12-16T14:20:55Z Nilby: ldb: my code is too slow on ccl too
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2020-12-16T14:26:14Z nij: I store a function like this:   (defun f (n) n)   (cl-store:store #'f "~/temp.txt")
2020-12-16T14:26:23Z nij: But cannot successfully call it back..
2020-12-16T14:27:12Z nij: Both (apply #'(cl-store:restore "~/see.txt") 3) and ((cl-store:restore "~/see.txt") 3) fail..
2020-12-16T14:27:14Z Bike: according to the project page, when you serialize a function it just uses the function name
2020-12-16T14:27:29Z nij: s/temp/see/
2020-12-16T14:27:34Z Bike: well that's just a syntax error
2020-12-16T14:27:50Z Bike: you want (funcall (restore ...) 3) i would guess
2020-12-16T14:28:49Z nij: Oh indeed @@!
2020-12-16T14:29:00Z Bike: doesn't the error message say something like, malformed lambda expression?
2020-12-16T14:29:14Z nij: yes i tried to fix @@..
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2020-12-16T14:31:40Z nij: In general, if I want to get a form that clearly presents my object, I should write my own function/macro..
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2020-12-16T17:10:00Z solideogloria[m]: <pyc "hey sjl. would you please share "> vlime is as simple as just adding it in your vim plugin managers
2020-12-16T17:10:17Z solideogloria[m]: *plugin manager
2020-12-16T17:11:46Z mfiano: I was using a derivative of sjl's vlime config for a couple years just to see if I could live doing CL away from Emacs, and the answer was a big NOPE.
2020-12-16T17:13:54Z mfiano: There were many issues, but one of the big ones is the fact that vlime doesn't indent custom macros according to the lambda list. The vim way is to maintain a flat file with the indentation metadata for every symbol of every custom macro you write, or use from some library. This is mostly a vim limitation, though.
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2020-12-16T17:17:50Z sjl: In practice, this means I need to edit my .lispwords file every few weeks.
2020-12-16T17:18:20Z mfiano: I write a lot of DSLs that need to be indented correctly or my teammates yell at me :)
2020-12-16T17:18:50Z mfiano: Also I just can't live without Sly stickers, copy-to-mrepl, and a lot of other features missing from SLIME, and therefor vlime.
2020-12-16T17:19:16Z sjl: Vlime also supports Swank's indentation -- the reason I don't use it is because it was slow when indenting large chunks of code ~3 years ago.  No idea if that's still the case.
2020-12-16T17:19:20Z mfiano: And I guess finally, parentheses management is ungodly slow and error prone with the any of the array of vim plugins for doing so
2020-12-16T17:19:46Z sjl: paredit.vim has always worked great for me
2020-12-16T17:20:11Z sjl: But yeah, if you're willing to dump the required time into emacs, it'll be a better fit in the end
2020-12-16T17:20:34Z mfiano: It has many bugs if you used the advanced manipulation features like vonsolute and raise-killing-backward, etc...often leaving unbalanced parens
2020-12-16T17:20:50Z mfiano: But, it's just slow on older hardware compared to Emacs paren management
2020-12-16T17:21:07Z sjl: I have no idea what the word "vonsolute" could possibly mean, so I'm out.
2020-12-16T17:21:19Z mfiano: err convolute that was supposed to read
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2020-12-16T17:25:50Z entre-parenteses: mfiano: Speaking of Sly, I noticed you have/had a Spacemacs layer for using that over SLIME.  I was just curious if you might share why you archived it?
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2020-12-16T17:26:13Z ezekielwordswort: is programming language development possible in common lisp?
2020-12-16T17:26:27Z mfiano: Because Spacemacs is a moving target. I haven't used that junk in years
2020-12-16T17:26:42Z beach: ezekielwordswort: What do you mean?
2020-12-16T17:26:44Z entre-parenteses: Ah, fair enough. :D
2020-12-16T17:26:55Z beach: ezekielwordswort: Like creating your own language and implementing it in Common Lisp?
2020-12-16T17:27:02Z ezekielwordswort: yeah
2020-12-16T17:27:11Z beach: ezekielwordswort: Common Lisp is an excellent choice for that.
2020-12-16T17:27:21Z ezekielwordswort: nice
2020-12-16T17:27:32Z ezekielwordswort: thanks for the information
2020-12-16T17:27:37Z ezekielwordswort: i shall go now
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2020-12-16T17:27:44Z beach: Wow.
2020-12-16T17:27:57Z Alfr: That was strange.
2020-12-16T17:28:05Z beach: Yeah.
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2020-12-16T17:51:32Z andreyorst: maybe not the place to ask, but given that Emacs lisp is similar to Common in a sense that it is also Lisp2, maybe someone will be able to help me. I can't find an explanation on how I could return a lambda from a function, and store it in a varialbe that can later be called directly as a function without funcall. In Lisp1 it is pretty straightforward, in Lisp2 I'm not sure how one does this. Any hints?
2020-12-16T17:53:24Z andreyorst: ah, it seems `fset` is the way to go
2020-12-16T17:53:42Z Nilby: One way is: (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (lambda (x) ...))
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2020-12-16T17:53:51Z Nilby: There's no fset in CL
2020-12-16T17:54:42Z jackdaniel: better to always use fdefinition
2020-12-16T17:55:45Z Nilby: ^ yes, sorry, also that's for CL not elisp
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2020-12-16T18:00:12Z andreyorst: yeah, np :)
2020-12-16T18:00:16Z Nilby: Nilby's WAaaS - Wrong answer as a service "The fastest way to get the right answer"
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2020-12-16T18:03:23Z pyc: solideogloria[m]: i know. but  doing that simple setup gives a very limited vlime. vlime does not have a fully interactive repl like slimv.
2020-12-16T18:03:25Z Cthulhux: i'd use that
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2020-12-16T18:17:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use/used slimv for a while
2020-12-16T18:17:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: evil-mode (without all the spacemacs baggage) eventually converted me
2020-12-16T18:18:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, after upgrading to 11.1, sbcl works through Rosetta 2
2020-12-16T18:18:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: *macOS
2020-12-16T18:18:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: My dev environment is coming back together
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2020-12-16T18:30:08Z entre-parenteses: fiddlerwoaroof: Not sure if that was to me, or not, but I'm curious.  Are you saying that, now, you just use evil-mode with a regular Emacs install?
2020-12-16T18:33:25Z entre-parenteses: I got started with Spacemacs almost as soon as moving back to Emacs (from Vim) because I had gotten used to, and really like, the Vim key-bindings more, anyways.
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2020-12-16T18:35:26Z Cthulhux: i find vim keybindings annoying.
2020-12-16T18:35:39Z Cthulhux: i want to INSERT TEXT in an editor window
2020-12-16T18:35:43Z Cthulhux: not tell it to insert first
2020-12-16T18:35:46Z Cthulhux: bah
2020-12-16T18:37:37Z entre-parenteses: I just didn't like my wrists hurting after long periods of using the Emacs bindings.  I can, however, see the appeal of not having to know in which mode you're working, etc. :)
2020-12-16T18:37:46Z entre-parenteses: I guess it just became second-nature for me.
2020-12-16T18:38:43Z entre-parenteses: Not trying to start an editor war, though.  Just curious how other people efficiently get stuff done.
2020-12-16T18:41:53Z Cthulhux: i use adme.
2020-12-16T18:41:55Z Cthulhux: acme.
2020-12-16T18:41:57Z Cthulhux: ;o)
2020-12-16T18:42:36Z entre-parenteses: Oh, never heard of that!  I'll have to check it out.
2020-12-16T18:42:52Z Cthulhux: http://acme.cat-v.org
2020-12-16T18:43:10Z Cthulhux: acceptable cross-platform version: https://github.com/rjkroege/edwood
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2020-12-16T18:43:53Z Cthulhux: (the latter has a better way to change your font.. ;-))
2020-12-16T18:47:05Z Fade: do you use it on plan9, or just in userspace?
2020-12-16T18:47:27Z Cthulhux: i'm afraid i am too lazy to use plan 9 for more than just some toyin' around
2020-12-16T18:47:33Z Cthulhux: so plan9port, it is.
2020-12-16T18:47:38Z Cthulhux: on windows and macos.
2020-12-16T18:48:13Z Fade: I admire plan9.
2020-12-16T18:48:24Z Cthulhux: 9front has a netsurf port these days.
2020-12-16T18:48:26Z Fade: but I generally prefer the lisp way.
2020-12-16T18:48:30Z Cthulhux: makes it less uninteresting.
2020-12-16T18:48:38Z jackdaniel: isn't it going the other way than lisp? i.e it is more unix-y than unix? :)
2020-12-16T18:48:44Z Cthulhux: yes, it is
2020-12-16T18:48:54Z Cthulhux: everything is a file - including your cpi.
2020-12-16T18:48:56Z Cthulhux: cpu.
2020-12-16T18:49:20Z Fade: acme is too maus driven. :)
2020-12-16T18:49:20Z jackdaniel prefers "everything is a standard-object"
2020-12-16T18:49:37Z Cthulhux: fade: i thought so as well, but it really is nice
2020-12-16T18:49:41Z jackdaniel: including your cpu ,)
2020-12-16T18:49:55Z Fade touches his nose and points at jackdaniel 
2020-12-16T18:50:09Z Cthulhux: vim is modal (commands are behind <esc>) and acme is modal (commands are behind the mouse)
2020-12-16T18:50:10Z Cthulhux: :p
2020-12-16T18:50:17Z Cthulhux: vim users should love it!
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2020-12-16T18:51:23Z Nilby: vim is great if you have one finger, acme is great if you have an eyeball mouse and a foot clicker, emacs is great if you move the control and meta keys and a 30k init.el
2020-12-16T18:51:37Z Cthulhux: my init.el is smaller :(
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2020-12-16T19:09:13Z Fade: I guess with plumber it would be trivial to tie acme into a lisp process.
2020-12-16T19:09:26Z Cthulhux: yup
2020-12-16T19:09:30Z Cthulhux: it would.
2020-12-16T19:09:39Z Fade: how are you doing it?
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2020-12-16T19:11:48Z defunkydrummer: Just in case nobody has seen it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25441664
2020-12-16T19:11:59Z defunkydrummer: "	Ask HN: I want to start learning Lisp. Where do I begin?"
2020-12-16T19:12:54Z _death: at the nearest repl
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2020-12-16T19:18:45Z Cthulhux: Fade: basically, write a plumbing file which passes .lisp files to plumb; https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/using_plumbing/index.html
2020-12-16T19:19:04Z Cthulhux: Fade: then, execute the command with the default key chord
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2020-12-16T19:19:05Z Cthulhux: ;-)
2020-12-16T19:19:22Z Cthulhux: (or just add "| sbcl" to the toolbar..)
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2020-12-16T19:21:49Z Fade: does acme do things like balancing parens?
2020-12-16T19:22:19Z Cthulhux: no, but you can integrate any code cleaning utility with it
2020-12-16T19:22:35Z Cthulhux: i added the indent command to its toolbar which is handy.
2020-12-16T19:22:36Z Cthulhux: :)
2020-12-16T19:23:04Z Cthulhux: (you can write from any tool that can spawn text right into any of acme's buffers and bars, so feel free to write any plugin you like)
2020-12-16T19:24:04Z Cthulhux: potentially interesting: https://github.com/evbogdanov/acme
2020-12-16T19:24:06Z Cthulhux: enjoy
2020-12-16T19:25:27Z Nilby: I'm imagining writing a filter that that takes the mouse position and the lisp file and outputs it with an ascii arrow around the matching paren, sleeps, then output the orginal file.
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2020-12-16T21:28:08Z nij: Spent a day. Finally got what people say this very early morning: Use lisp to build the right language to attack the specific problem.
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2020-12-16T21:28:56Z nij: I thought it is better to make DSL lispier.. but the language of some problem is hard to made lispy. It's possible theoretically, but the syntax will be huge.
2020-12-16T21:29:20Z nij: This makes me wonder (another impractical stupd question), what DSLs look pretty lispy?
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2020-12-16T21:51:29Z no-defun-allowed: I mustn't have made the point that any DSL in Lisp is "Lispy" to the author.
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2020-12-16T21:58:58Z Xach: mfiano: it looks like origin is broken?
2020-12-16T21:59:00Z Xach checks github
2020-12-16T22:01:34Z aeth: nij: The go-to example is HTML and/or CSS. There are quite a few of those. Also several SQL, including one that's specifically just for PostgreSQL
2020-12-16T22:02:10Z aeth: Most of these just generate strings. There are some for GLSL, a GPU shader language, too. In theory, you can generate other things, e.g. SPIR-V for GPU shaders or WASM for web browsers.
2020-12-16T22:03:13Z nij: Right.
2020-12-16T22:03:24Z aeth: Oh, I should say that most of these generate strings, and most of the rest generate Lisp code, either compiling-to-Lisp or compiling-to-an-s-expression-interpreter (or both, I guess)
2020-12-16T22:03:46Z aeth: But "generating Lisp code" makes it hard to really call a DSL vs just a regular macro. I guess LOOP counts, but it's not very Lispy vs. e.g. ITERATE
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2020-12-16T22:04:07Z nij: I figure out that Lisp is so great because it is closer to human thoughts, which have many structures. Any language that achieves this seems to must have many parentheses.
2020-12-16T22:04:29Z Xach reports a bug
2020-12-16T22:05:28Z nij: But when a specific problem is too machine-like (e.g. a computer algebra system), the best language deviates from being alike to human thoughts. And that's when it starts to be less lispier.
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2020-12-16T22:05:52Z nij: So in conclusion, for each specific problem, we need to design the right language for it, using lisp.
2020-12-16T22:05:54Z aeth: nij: I mean, there are three main ways (and, really, infinite ways since reader macros are a thing) to go about doing a DSL... a string (e.g. cl-ppcre or FORMAT), a pseudo-algol macro language (basically just LOOP), or a macro language with many parentheses.
2020-12-16T22:06:32Z aeth: What I mean by LOOP is, it's basically just parsing a bunch of arbitrary things that are pre-tokenized into space-separated tokens and that's about it.
2020-12-16T22:06:43Z aeth: As opposed to having more structure and probably doing destructuring-bind or something
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2020-12-16T22:07:09Z nij: right
2020-12-16T22:07:42Z nij: Does that mean if a language is good enough for a problem, I should just use it? Instead of lisp?
2020-12-16T22:07:55Z aeth: You can compile to it from Lisp.
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2020-12-16T22:08:23Z aeth: e.g. https://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/s-sql.html
2020-12-16T22:08:54Z nij: This is very neat.
2020-12-16T22:09:58Z nij: Much more expressive. It remembers the structure of our thoughts.
2020-12-16T22:11:54Z nij: aeth: In your first category (DSL by string eg FORMAT), can one still argue that lisp is a better language for designing it?
2020-12-16T22:12:30Z nij: Also, as for your third category, what would be some instances?
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2020-12-16T22:13:14Z aeth: nij: if the string is a literal string, it can still be parsed at compile time
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2020-12-16T22:13:42Z aeth: implementations probably do this with FORMAT when the string is literal.
2020-12-16T22:14:04Z no-defun-allowed: You have to be sure that Lisp isn't changing the structure of your thoughts. Some wise internet celebrities say it is (and make it sound like writing Lisp is like doing drugs), but that could be a bad thing if there is a better structure.
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2020-12-16T22:14:21Z aeth: nij: so (your-macro "1 + 2 + 3 + 4") isn't too different from (your-macro 1 2 3 4)
2020-12-16T22:14:35Z aeth: (FORMAT isn't a macro, though, so implementations have to be clever)
2020-12-16T22:14:44Z Xach is reminded of a brucio post from 2005
2020-12-16T22:14:57Z nij: Xach: which one?
2020-12-16T22:15:08Z nij: aeth: hmm
2020-12-16T22:15:14Z Xach: https://web.archive.org/web/20070712062411/http://brucio.blogspot.com/2005/09/list-accessors.html specifically
2020-12-16T22:15:28Z Xach: > How to change the cooking time? "Setf second list new-value" is how I would phrase it in English.
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2020-12-16T22:15:52Z nij: no-defun-allowed: humans thoughts are full of structures.. while it's definitely not the same as lisp, I'm convinced that lisp is the most alike.
2020-12-16T22:16:44Z nij: Lol that's different grammar. But as thoughts it's alike.
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2020-12-16T22:17:05Z nij: Also in Latin, I think people can talk like that.
2020-12-16T22:17:23Z nij: (im not an expert in Latin)
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2020-12-16T22:19:58Z nij: Xach: but it's still a pretty nice joke xD
2020-12-16T22:20:40Z aeth: Xach: Personally, I think in destructuring-bind rather than FIRST, SECOND, etc., but I think that those are just LETs, not accessors. We need a with-destructuring-accessors for the SETF, I guess.
2020-12-16T22:20:42Z nij: I recall one of my high school classmates. He were so into computer science and sometimes talks like that (not in English though).
2020-12-16T22:20:43Z mrcom: nij: Would think computer algebra is actually *very* lisp-ish. Core problem is re-arranging graphs which are mostly-but-not-entirely trees.
2020-12-16T22:21:05Z aeth: mrcom: agreed
2020-12-16T22:21:11Z aeth: at least, symbolic CAS
2020-12-16T22:21:35Z aeth: You don't really think about trying to differentiate math expressions in a "normal" programming language, but plenty of people have that thought when it's in s-expression form
2020-12-16T22:21:42Z nij: You'd need to write (+ (make-integer 3) (make-rational 3.5))......
2020-12-16T22:21:55Z nij: The structure is lisp, but there's too much abstractions.
2020-12-16T22:22:14Z nij: So to cut the interface down, one must make it less lispy..
2020-12-16T22:22:40Z nij: Here, ofc, 3 and 3.5 are handled automatically by lisp. But this is just an example.
2020-12-16T22:23:11Z mrcom: nij: '(+ (* A B) (* A C)) -> '(* A (+ B C))
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2020-12-16T22:23:42Z nij: oh this part yes
2020-12-16T22:23:45Z nij: very lispy
2020-12-16T22:24:33Z nij: But when one starts to deal with (N in Z in Q in R in C in C[x] in C[x,y] in C(x,y))...
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2020-12-16T22:25:01Z nij: there will be much ambiguity
2020-12-16T22:25:39Z nij: As we don't want to mess #'+ around..
2020-12-16T22:25:55Z nij: or some other fundamental operations that can be "lifted".
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2020-12-16T22:26:32Z nij: Oh wait! We can use generic function..
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2020-12-16T22:28:09Z mrcom: (map 'list #'(replace-when-matches (* (+ _0 _1) (+ _0 _2)) (* _0 (+ _1 _2))) '(* (* (+ A B) (A C)) (* (+ A E) (+ A F))))) -> '(* A (+ (+ B C) (+ E F)))
2020-12-16T22:29:13Z mrcom: (they're quoted lists so + and * are treated as symbols, not functions)
2020-12-16T22:30:01Z nij: i see
2020-12-16T22:30:12Z mrcom: Any this is hand-wavy lisp :)
2020-12-16T22:30:16Z nij: the language is also list-like, instead of string-like.
2020-12-16T22:30:28Z nij: Oh, is this translator easy to write in lisp?
2020-12-16T22:30:44Z mrcom: Yep, very easy.
2020-12-16T22:31:00Z nij: How about rational functions? Namely, polynomials over polynomials.
2020-12-16T22:31:13Z nij: Maybe multi-variated. Namely, many indeterminants x, y, z, etc..
2020-12-16T22:32:19Z mrcom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macsyma
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2020-12-16T22:35:53Z mrcom: A basic idea is to define patterns with place holders, and then define transforms on patterns-of-patterns.
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2020-12-16T22:37:54Z nij: i see
2020-12-16T22:38:28Z mrcom: For example, "when you see (* A B), if A matches (^ C D) and B (^ E F), and C and E are the same thing, then replace with (^ C (+ D E))"
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2020-12-16T22:39:38Z mrcom: Then there's "let's represent the possible transforms as lazy trees, and walk the tree until we're happy."
2020-12-16T22:40:20Z mrcom: So it's all lists. The whole universe is lists :)
2020-12-16T22:41:35Z mrcom: sorry: replace with (^ C (+ D F))
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2020-12-16T22:48:26Z mrcom: More head-explodey: Symbols are really pointers to... everything. There is a symbol which has an identifying string "+" (more precisely, there's a symbol in the COMMON-LISP namespace with that ident).
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2020-12-16T22:50:39Z nij: It's nice. I shall learn this.
2020-12-16T22:52:43Z mrcom: When you do something like `(format t "~A~%" '+)', you are telling the lisp reader to "find the symbol `+', then include it in the list that will get passed to FORMAT when it's called."
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2020-12-16T22:55:50Z mrcom: FORMAT takes the second parameter (the "~A~%" string), sees the ~A, looks at the next parameter and sees its a symbol. The ~A tells FORMAT to get the symbol's name field and stuff it in the output string.
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2020-12-16T22:56:24Z mrcom: Not too complicated. The head-splodey part is this:
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2020-12-16T23:02:35Z mrcom: If you do something like '(+ A B) [including the single quote] the reader does _exactly the same thing_. That initial symbol in the resulting list _is_ the symbol that identifies the "+" function.
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2020-12-16T23:04:17Z mrcom: So transforming '(+ (* A B) (* A C)) to '(* A (+ B C)) _is_ directly transforming code.
2020-12-16T23:05:04Z mrcom: For example: (apply (second '(* +)) (list 2 3)) -> 5
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2020-12-16T23:05:51Z defunkydrummer: mrcom: YOUR HEAD A SPLODE
2020-12-16T23:07:01Z mrcom: So your transforming language is just playing with lists of symbols, but if you choose the symbols appropriately you are directly refactoring code.
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2020-12-16T23:14:46Z Nilby: Now to really a splode your head, run the metacircular lisp 'whitespace' compiler written in 'parentheses hell' that outputs k-machine code to an invisible color channel in a jpg of a walrus.
2020-12-16T23:17:46Z mrcom: I'm sorry, but the walrus is just gratuitous. I could see a spherical cow, but...
2020-12-16T23:18:16Z Nilby apologizes
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2020-12-17T01:18:21Z iarebatman: Hey all.
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2020-12-17T01:18:44Z iarebatman: Is anyone aware of any lisp-related job openings?
2020-12-17T01:21:13Z nij: Is it possible to extend the definition of an existing function? For example, '+ is defined for numbers. Can I *extend* its definition for strings, so that (+ "a" "b") => "ab" with (+ 1 2) => 3.
2020-12-17T01:21:17Z nij: ?
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2020-12-17T01:23:58Z Oladon: iarebatman: Usually Planet Lisp is a good resource for those.
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2020-12-17T01:29:41Z edgar-rft: nij: it's not allowed to redifine cl:+ (package lock error) but it's possible to either "shadow" the + symbol by some package-trickery or easier, define a "my-+" function (or some better name) that implements the string-behaviour and calls cl:+ for non-string arguments.
2020-12-17T01:29:42Z mrcom: nij: No, maybe, and sort-of.
2020-12-17T01:30:06Z mrcom: (what edgar-rft said)
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2020-12-17T01:30:24Z moon-child: you probably want my-+ to be a generic
2020-12-17T01:30:39Z Oladon: nij: Yes, and no. You can very easily write a new method which uses type dispatch to handle various types of arguments... heh, edgar-rft mostly covered it :)
2020-12-17T01:30:53Z iarebatman: Oladon: I'll check it out, thank you
2020-12-17T01:31:06Z Oladon: iarebatman: Sure thing. Good luck!
2020-12-17T01:31:30Z moon-child: (defgeneric m+ (a b)) (defmethod m+ ((a string) (b string)) (concatenate 'string a b)) (defmethod m+ ((a fixnum) (b fixnum)) (+ a b))
2020-12-17T01:31:31Z mrcom: minion: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2020-12-17T01:31:32Z minion: you speak nonsense
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2020-12-17T01:32:33Z edgar-rft: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2020-12-17T01:32:34Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
2020-12-17T01:32:40Z Bike: some standard functions are generic, so they can be extended. like initialize-instance. arithmetic functions are not generic functions, though.
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2020-12-17T01:48:13Z phadthai: nij: example of shadowing: (defpackage "mycl" (:shadow #:+) (:use cl))  (in-package "mycl")  (defun + (a b) (- a b))  (+ 2 1) -> 1
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2020-12-17T01:49:41Z phadthai: err :use :cl
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2020-12-17T01:51:09Z phadthai: in this case not only does it break + by actually using -, it also only accepts two arguments unlike CL +
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2020-12-17T01:53:48Z phadthai: but cl:+ is always usable from within mycl too
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2020-12-17T02:22:20Z aeth: Once when I had to use a custom +, I didn't actually directly override CL:+... I had a macrolet (iirc, might've been something similar) local to a given function that selected which + it was using. It made it really easy to debug.
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2020-12-17T02:30:39Z phadthai: yes that should work where there's no need to treat the operator as a function
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2020-12-17T02:49:34Z aeth: it might have been an FLET
2020-12-17T02:50:55Z aeth: declaring it inline will allow you to treat it like a function for higher order functions, while also optimizing the inefficient &rest away
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2020-12-17T02:55:33Z mister_m: Hi I am reading steve Losh's chip-8 tutorial and there is a macro they define that allows users to more easily define instructions outlined in this section: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2016/12/chip8-cpu/#s18-define-instruction, however it seems to be leaky in that it exposes a macro internal thru the macrolet definition of `register'
2020-12-17T02:56:08Z mister_m: I'm wondering if there's a way to employ that local register macro without it being "leaked"
2020-12-17T02:56:19Z no-defun-allowed: I think that leaking is intentional.
2020-12-17T02:56:52Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, for (register <n>)?
2020-12-17T02:57:01Z mister_m: that's right, yes
2020-12-17T02:57:13Z no-defun-allowed: WITH-CHIP appears to also leak and bind REGISTERS without the user specifying it.
2020-12-17T02:57:33Z mister_m: yep, I'd say that is correct as well
2020-12-17T02:57:44Z no-defun-allowed: You could GENSYM a variable in place of REGISTERS, and have WITH-CHIP and REGISTERS use that.
2020-12-17T02:58:40Z aeth: or alexandria:with-gensyms
2020-12-17T02:58:54Z no-defun-allowed: Which does exactly that.
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2020-12-17T02:58:58Z aeth: right, same thing, just less manual
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2020-12-17T02:59:40Z aeth: e.g. (alexandria:with-gensyms (register) `(,register)) => (#:REGISTER629) ; your number may vary
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2020-12-17T03:01:21Z mister_m: that does seem at least a bit better than having it just be exposed - would it be maybe also slightly better stylistically to modify the define-instruction macro lambda list to allow the user to explicitly provide the name they want to use?
2020-12-17T03:01:34Z aeth: yes
2020-12-17T03:01:41Z aeth: you can even do both
2020-12-17T03:01:48Z mister_m: definitely
2020-12-17T03:02:06Z mister_m: thanks for the suggestions
2020-12-17T03:02:09Z aeth: i.e. default value to gensym (or just wait until it's NIL and then GENSYM if you want to avoid creating a GENSYM that might not be used)
2020-12-17T03:09:22Z nij: edgar-rft, mrcom, moon-child, phadthai, and aeth thanks for your response. I was working and didn't see it until now.
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2020-12-17T03:10:11Z nij: Hmm.. I didn't know of shadow, and it does seem advanced. However, I really hope to redefine CL:+. Isn't there some dirty way to force the redefinition?
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2020-12-17T03:12:51Z Bike: not standardly.
2020-12-17T03:12:55Z Alfr: nij, compilers may simply ignore your redefinition of cl:+ or may honor it, depending on the phase of the moon.
2020-12-17T03:13:14Z no-defun-allowed: For "prior art", in Netfarm I write (define-instruction <opcode> <name> ((:some-register variable-name ...) stack-arguments ...) (opcode-arguments ...) ...)
2020-12-17T03:13:24Z Bike: any such way would hit serious problems with built in and other earlier defined functions that use addition, and also compilers often handle arithmetic functions somewhat magically
2020-12-17T03:14:32Z no-defun-allowed: For example, <https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm/-/blob/master/Code/Scripts/Script-machine/operators.lisp#L97> uses all those; and I can compile all the bodies into one big dispatch loop with lexical variables for registers, as I never touch a structure directly.
2020-12-17T03:14:40Z Bike: for example sbcl has a "source transform" on + that will try to merge constants together, among other things
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2020-12-17T03:16:06Z Bike: compilers may not put in an "actual" call to +, meaning that code that has (+ ...) forms won't actually be affected by your redefinition
2020-12-17T03:16:12Z Bike: thus resulting in weird inconsistencies
2020-12-17T03:16:25Z phadthai: yes and any compiled code using optimization declarations might end up generating inline direct math operations on variables or registers internally (in C for ECL, in ASM for SBCL, etc)
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2020-12-17T03:17:01Z nij: I see. Given all this.. I will just use m+.
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2020-12-17T03:17:14Z nij: Which is a little bad as I like pure symbols.
2020-12-17T03:17:42Z Bike: designing an interface that's both flexibly responsive to redefinitions, but also can be compiled efficiently, is rather difficult
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2020-12-17T03:17:53Z nij: That also means if I'm defining more abstract mathematical objects, I am required to use m+ too..
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2020-12-17T03:18:23Z nij: e.g. on rational numbers, groups, fields.. etc.
2020-12-17T03:18:56Z Alfr: nij, shadow + or don't use c-l in your package.
2020-12-17T03:18:59Z nij: Or perhaps I should use unicode ＋ to alias some other my-add.
2020-12-17T03:19:24Z nij: s/some other//
2020-12-17T03:19:25Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL normalises ＋ to +, sadly.
2020-12-17T03:19:39Z no-defun-allowed: Or maybe fortunately, because that's evil.
2020-12-17T03:19:53Z aeth: looks different to me
2020-12-17T03:20:06Z no-defun-allowed: Try (＋ 2 2)
2020-12-17T03:20:12Z aeth: definitely looks different
2020-12-17T03:20:16Z phadthai: shadowing allows you to have your custom ops package that can be "use"d by other packages resulting in what you want, but you'd have to make sure in those to always use explicit cl:+ when needing CL's
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2020-12-17T03:20:20Z aeth: extra space
2020-12-17T03:20:31Z nij: 🞥
2020-12-17T03:20:37Z aeth: Anyway... cl:+ is probably one of the most optimized parts of a compiler, and even SBCL's + doesn't optimize nearly as much as it could based on some optimizations in e.g. Java or C
2020-12-17T03:20:46Z phadthai: I've seen some examples using words for operators also, another option
2020-12-17T03:20:48Z nij: aeth: lol
2020-12-17T03:21:07Z no-defun-allowed: (PLUS '2 '2) would be the old fashioned way.
2020-12-17T03:21:21Z aeth: if you let redefinition happen, you remove some optimizations
2020-12-17T03:22:09Z nij: I almost give up.. perhaps the right way to implement a CAS is really to use usual notation: "1+1" instead of (+ 1 1).
2020-12-17T03:22:33Z nij: And therefore I need a DSL. But this has been done already.
2020-12-17T03:22:47Z nij: I was hoping to do that in lisp.
2020-12-17T03:23:10Z nij: TT
2020-12-17T03:24:03Z no-defun-allowed: Yes and no, your input syntax may not be Lisp, but you can still continue to use Lisp structures.
2020-12-17T03:24:34Z no-defun-allowed: The example on https://www.irif.fr/~jch/software/cl-yacc/cl-yacc.html does exactly that, parsing an infix string to Lisp.
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2020-12-17T03:25:39Z Alfr: nij, I don't see why you want to redefine cl:+. Or what is wrong with your-cas:+ ?
2020-12-17T03:26:36Z Alfr: nij, every package using that your-cas package would be able to access that your-cas:+ simply using + .
2020-12-17T03:27:03Z no-defun-allowed: I mean, your user probably wants to write something like "a * b + a * c = a * (b + c)".
2020-12-17T03:27:37Z nij: no-defun-allowed: not sure if I will be the only user ;)
2020-12-17T03:27:45Z nij: If I am, I'm happy to write in lisp.
2020-12-17T03:27:50Z no-defun-allowed: And that would define a rewrite rule for (+ (* ?a ?b) (* ?a ?c)) <=> (* ?a (+ ?b ?c)), supposing that is the representation you want.
2020-12-17T03:28:34Z nij: I'm not sure if I want to refine that rewrite rule..
2020-12-17T03:28:49Z nij: say a and b are rational numbers   c/d and e/f
2020-12-17T03:29:16Z nij: (+ a b) will evaluate to (cf+de)/df directly
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2020-12-17T03:29:39Z nij: I will look at CL-Yacc tomorrow. Seems legit. My brain has been drained.
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2020-12-17T03:29:51Z no-defun-allowed: You have to decide which rules, if any, would give you the ideal representation for the human reader.
2020-12-17T03:30:06Z no-defun-allowed: I recall Sussman also had a paper on that, but I forgot it.
2020-12-17T03:30:17Z nij: Lisp's is of course better..
2020-12-17T03:30:45Z nij: when you have a*b*c*d*e + f*e*f*g*s*dl*sa*qw*dsf*d + ...
2020-12-17T03:31:01Z nij: It's much clearner to see (+ (* a b c d e) \n ..
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2020-12-17T03:31:21Z nij: The parentheses help a lot for us to focus.
2020-12-17T03:31:56Z nij: you can write (a*b*c*d*e) too, but you have to spend time checking if all operators are *
2020-12-17T03:32:08Z no-defun-allowed: Here you are, "Algebraic simplification: A guide for the complexed" https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/6.945/readings/simplification/moses-simp.pdf
2020-12-17T03:32:58Z Alfr: nij, also if you want to recycle cl:+ for cl's numbers, you could make your + a generic function which then dispatches for arguments of class number to cl:+ .
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2020-12-17T03:33:12Z no-defun-allowed: That wasn't Sussman, but there's GJS in the URL so I wasn't entirely wrong.
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2020-12-17T03:34:37Z nij: So can I stay in cl, but only disable cl:+?
2020-12-17T03:34:57Z nij: and then implement my:+, which is called by +?
2020-12-17T03:35:28Z aeth: nij: infix in CL reminds me of https://gitlab.com/mbabich/lisp-hello-world/-/blob/c45deaab9918285d3de43c52340100fef6591d15/main.lisp
2020-12-17T03:35:30Z thmprover: nij, you might want to look up Fateman's paper "Building a CAS by overloading Lisp" (or something like that), he talks about shadowing cl:+
2020-12-17T03:35:54Z thmprover: There's code too, on Fateman's website, for the generic arithmetic hack.
2020-12-17T03:35:55Z Alfr: nij, sure. That's what packages are good for. :)
2020-12-17T03:36:53Z thmprover: https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/generic/overload-small.pdf
2020-12-17T03:39:14Z phadthai: in case this could help to better understand packages and symbols (I don't recommend to use it for the security of "safe" as it's just a test/demo): http://git.pulsar-zone.net/?p=mmondor.git;a=blob;f=mmsoftware/cl/test/safe-eval.lisp;hb=HEAD
2020-12-17T03:39:51Z phadthai: this mimics CL/CL-USER
2020-12-17T03:42:47Z nij: Oh folks.... thank you so much T_T
2020-12-17T03:42:53Z nij: I almost cried.
2020-12-17T03:43:01Z nij: Will take a look tomorrow.
2020-12-17T03:43:08Z thmprover: Fateman's code is a bit buggy
2020-12-17T03:43:09Z nij 's brain is shutting off.
2020-12-17T03:43:26Z thmprover: I patched it up, but never uploaded it anywhere, lemme know if you're curious
2020-12-17T03:46:46Z nij: Alfr: by how? Is that what shadowing does?
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2020-12-17T04:04:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-12-17T04:04:19Z thmprover: nij: you might want to read "Building Problem Solvers", one of the early chapters implements a pattern-matching algorithm, which can be used for simplifying algebraic expressions.
2020-12-17T04:04:25Z thmprover: Good morning, beach!
2020-12-17T04:04:32Z Alfr_: nij, you'll likely use defpackage's :shadow to make yours. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2020-12-17T04:04:38Z Alfr_: Hi beach.
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2020-12-17T04:05:51Z Alfr_: nij, there's also shadow if you want to make one later: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_shadow.htm
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2020-12-17T06:05:01Z ldbeth: good afternoon
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2020-12-17T06:05:43Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldbeth.
2020-12-17T06:08:25Z edgar-rft: "after" is what a german doctor calls your anus :-)
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2020-12-17T06:11:47Z fe[nl]ix: edgar-rft: that wasn't funny
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2020-12-17T06:13:02Z no-defun-allowed: I didn't know I wanted to hear that, and I still don't know if I wanted to hear that.
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2020-12-17T07:49:08Z zacts: hello
2020-12-17T07:49:24Z beach: Hello zacts.
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2020-12-17T07:50:25Z zacts: I'm working thru this practical common lisp
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2020-12-17T07:51:54Z beach: Good.
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2020-12-17T09:27:41Z edgar-rft: fe[nl]ix: that's a fact, it wasn't intended to be funny
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2020-12-17T12:07:36Z kenran: What should I be searching for when I wish to do something like: 1) acquire a resource 2) do something with it, but when this fails 3) release the resource? I'm thinking of something like Haskell's bracket or may try/catch/finally in some other languages.
2020-12-17T12:08:10Z jackdaniel: kenran: unwind-protect
2020-12-17T12:08:40Z jackdaniel: if you want to release it after the block, regardless of whether there was a an error or not
2020-12-17T12:09:02Z jackdaniel: i.e (let ((foo (acquire))) (unwind-protect (my-function foo) (release foo)))
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2020-12-17T12:11:00Z kenran: jackdaniel: thanks, exactly what I was looking for!
2020-12-17T12:11:35Z jackdaniel: if you want to perform some operation /only when an error happens/ you should use handler-case or handler-bind with the clause serious-condition
2020-12-17T12:11:56Z jackdaniel: s/when an error/when something serious happens/
2020-12-17T12:12:26Z jackdaniel: i.e a timeout is not an error (at least in most implementations), neither is the storage-condition
2020-12-17T12:12:50Z jackdaniel: but both are serious-condition 's
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2020-12-17T12:14:09Z kenran: cool, good to know!
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2020-12-17T15:01:24Z kenran: I've been trying to use SLY (it came with doom emacs' common-lisp module, but I'm open to switching to SLIME if that's easier) to load a nearly-empty ASDF project. For that, I added the package sly-asdf and tried doing sly-compile-and-load-file. It complains about COMMON-LISP-USER::DEFSYSTEM being an undefined function. I've enabled the sly-asdf contrib. What else should I look into?
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2020-12-17T15:08:42Z kenran: Ahhh nevermind, I found it: quickproject created an .asd file that called (defsystem) and not (asdf:defsystem ...). Qualifying the call made sly-compile-and-load-system work again.
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2020-12-17T15:26:34Z Bike: i don't think you're supposed to compile and load ASD files like they're lisp files, which it sounds like you're doing
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2020-12-17T15:29:26Z pfdietz: I'm assuming asdf loads them with *package* bound to the asdf package.
2020-12-17T15:29:28Z jackdaniel: asdf loads asd files anyway
2020-12-17T15:29:56Z jackdaniel usually puts (in-package #:asdf-user) at the top of the asd file, although it is not encouraged by the asdf manual
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2020-12-17T15:30:48Z jackdaniel: you still need to define and put in-package if you extend the asdf (i.e to define new file types)
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2020-12-17T15:39:15Z pfdietz: Ah: asdf loads asd files in a temporary package that :uses the asdf package (and cl).
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2020-12-17T16:12:39Z makomo: hello \o
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2020-12-17T16:43:54Z beach: Hello makomo.
2020-12-17T16:44:04Z lotuseater: hi makomo
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2020-12-17T16:45:28Z makomo: hi beach :)
2020-12-17T16:45:38Z makomo: hi lotuseater :D
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2020-12-17T16:50:12Z beach: makomo: Where have you been hiding all this time?
2020-12-17T16:50:40Z beach: Actually, you haven't been here much at all this year.
2020-12-17T16:51:05Z makomo: very good question :')
2020-12-17T16:51:37Z beach: No need to answer if it's too personal.
2020-12-17T16:51:56Z makomo: hehe, that's not it, don't worry. but thanks :)
2020-12-17T16:52:57Z makomo: but i'm not too sure myself LOL. i guess i was finishing up my msc and now i've successfully graduated not too long ago :). also, sometimes i just forget to start my irc client and then quickly forget irc even exists o_O
2020-12-17T16:53:18Z makomo: i gotta start being more regular again for sure :D
2020-12-17T16:53:30Z beach: Congratulations to graduating.
2020-12-17T16:53:51Z makomo: thank you :D
2020-12-17T16:53:59Z beach: Maybe now you have a lot of free time that we can take advantage of? :)
2020-12-17T16:55:24Z makomo: HAHA, i like that thinking :) :). i've actually started a phd now as well, but that doesn't necessarily imply i won't have time ;)
2020-12-17T16:55:48Z beach: Wow, nice!  What's the subject?
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2020-12-17T16:56:44Z makomo: it has to do with languages for concurrent and distributed systems :)
2020-12-17T16:57:02Z beach: Sounds hard. :)
2020-12-17T16:57:53Z lotuseater: sounds like Erlang/LFE incoming :P
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2020-12-17T16:58:25Z makomo: heh, i thought so as well. but i also thought it would be a great opportunity, so welp, gotta stuck it up and bang my head i suppose ;)
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2020-12-17T17:24:51Z kenran: So far I've seen `:depends-on (:cffi)`, `:depends-on ("cffi")` and `(:depends-on (#:cffi)`. Are there any semantic differences between these in a defsystem form?
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2020-12-17T17:28:36Z dim: yes and no, I suppose a “package designator” is not very well defined, and accepts either a string or a symbol for sure
2020-12-17T17:29:37Z dim: :cffi is a symbol that is going to be interned I can't remember in which package, #:cffi forces the symbol to be interned in the KEYWORDS package if I remember correctly, and of course "cffi" is using a string as a package system designator here
2020-12-17T17:29:53Z dim: so I said “package designator” before when I meant “system designator” I suppose
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2020-12-17T17:31:07Z kenran: dim: thanks! If I have no real idea what difference it makes where stuff gets interned, which of the three variants should I use as a newbie? Or is the essence "it doesn't really matter at all"?
2020-12-17T17:31:39Z dim: it kind of matters that you understand what is a string and what is a symbol, and why symbol exist in a package, and what is a package
2020-12-17T17:32:45Z dim: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html might be a good way to wrap your head around those notions
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2020-12-17T17:34:33Z dim: http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf this also helped me when a beginner myself (I suppose I have reached “intermediate” level)
2020-12-17T17:34:46Z kenran: vim: thanks again
2020-12-17T17:34:54Z kenran: dim: *lol
2020-12-17T17:35:00Z kenran: freudian typo
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2020-12-17T17:36:26Z lotuseater: kenran: there is also a part about this in common lisp recipes
2020-12-17T17:38:00Z dim: I liked https://web.archive.org/web/20171127051637/http://weitz.de:80/packages.html which is hard to find nowadays, and some people here advice not reading it IIRC, but I did find it helpful at the time
2020-12-17T17:38:45Z aeth: dim: you have it backwards... :cffi is in keywords
2020-12-17T17:39:03Z aeth: (symbol-package :cffi) => #<PACKAGE "KEYWORD">
2020-12-17T17:39:04Z dim: ah thanks for fixing it!
2020-12-17T17:39:12Z aeth: (symbol-package '#:cffi) => NIL
2020-12-17T17:39:12Z dim: what about #:cffi then?
2020-12-17T17:39:28Z dim: forces to avoid any interning?
2020-12-17T17:39:30Z aeth: (it has to be quoted because symbol-package isn't a macro... when it's used unquoted, it's in a macro)
2020-12-17T17:39:37Z aeth: right
2020-12-17T17:39:55Z aeth: I prefer to use #:foo or, if I need to get its name, (symbol-name '#:foo)
2020-12-17T17:40:06Z lotuseater: dim: the allusion at beginning is funny
2020-12-17T17:40:18Z aeth: (symbol-name '#:foo) is perfectly free of side effects so any decent compiler should turn that into "FOO". Or maybe "foo" if it's in "modern mode"
2020-12-17T17:40:21Z dim: okay that makes sense, I knew there was something about interning, and something about the KEYWORD package, and then I failed to remember the details correctly, shows that I have spent two years writing C code and less and less CL code, sorry about that
2020-12-17T17:41:09Z aeth: dim: Well, I knew the answer but I verified it in the REPL before posting. That's the good thing about CL... if you know the functions (in this case SYMBOL-PACKAGE) then it's easy to verify
2020-12-17T17:41:21Z aeth: Whereas in C, you have to think of a trivial test program and hope that it always is true...
2020-12-17T17:41:42Z aeth: (C has a few interpreters for REPL, but there's no guarantee that those interpreters are written correctly since nobody uses them.)
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2020-12-17T17:43:09Z dim: yeah I did write a full command line parsing utility so that I could export my C internal routines at the top-level easily and then test them and play with the code in isolation, without having to create a full test environment, so yeah... lots of bonus points for CL to make that just the default
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2020-12-17T17:45:23Z aeth: eh, it's not that hard
2020-12-17T17:45:43Z aeth: Most things can just be tested inside of a hello world style main
2020-12-17T17:45:51Z aeth: Or at the top level called from that main
2020-12-17T17:46:02Z aeth: It's just 10x more effort than entering a one-liner into a REPL
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2020-12-17T17:47:26Z dim: yeah, not hard, but requires a special effort nonetheless, and then you have to do it again and again
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2020-12-17T18:17:58Z phantomics: Is anyone using lparallel much? Have some questions about threaded array operations
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2020-12-17T18:26:52Z shka_: how can i add shortcut in emacs to launch Clouseau like a slime inspector?
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2020-12-17T18:29:21Z Gnuxie[m]: I'd like to know too
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2020-12-17T18:38:41Z fdddd: What is a simple way to use asdf for an application with several sub-packages? Can I use a single defsystem declaration for this? If you know of some good examples I would love to see them.
2020-12-17T18:40:09Z shka_: fdddd: yes
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2020-12-17T18:40:16Z shka_: single asd file if fine
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2020-12-17T18:40:39Z shka_: package is just bag of symbols
2020-12-17T18:40:50Z shka_: nothing to do with actual build
2020-12-17T18:41:35Z fdddd: I was looking at this file for example: https://github.com/borodust/cl-bodge/blob/master/cl-bodge.asd Seems rather complicated. Could it be defined with a single defsystem for instance?
2020-12-17T18:41:52Z shka_: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/statistical-learning/blob/master/statistical-learning.asd
2020-12-17T18:41:53Z shka_: here
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2020-12-17T18:42:27Z shka_: i put packages in separate modules, only because i like it this way
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2020-12-17T18:43:58Z fdddd: Makes sense. I like this approach. Thanks
2020-12-17T18:44:13Z shka_: you are welcome
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2020-12-17T18:56:37Z kenran: I've asked earlier on how to do something like Haskell's bracket to acquire, use and release resource (a function taking 3 functions, basically) and was shown unwind-protect. One example where I'd use this would be something like an SDL2 texture. Is this also the lispy way of doing things, or would an OO approach would work better here? I haven't actually read up on CLOS yet, but I figure something like a
2020-12-17T18:56:43Z kenran: destructor or finalizer is surely possible. What's the go-go style?
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2020-12-17T19:01:35Z shka_: kenran: typically, lispers write macros like those http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_w_open.htm
2020-12-17T19:01:49Z shka_: postmodern has with-connection for instance
2020-12-17T19:02:00Z shka_: but they are found just about everywhere
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2020-12-17T19:08:05Z flip214: even python copied the "with ..." naming
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2020-12-17T19:28:37Z aeth: kenran: destructors for FFI stuff is just going to be a source of bugs
2020-12-17T19:29:03Z aeth: probably because some things will still be around on the next run because you're running it from the same REPL
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2020-12-17T19:33:56Z mister_m: sort of a tangent but is it necessary to always explicitly list what files asdf needs for the :components attribute? Is there a way to intelligently discover them all - as well as what order to load them in through some sort - through providing say the location of a folder to search in?
2020-12-17T19:34:55Z mister_m: or a combination of a folder / entry point
2020-12-17T19:35:21Z jackdaniel: you may define a component that searches for all lisp files in the directory
2020-12-17T19:35:28Z jackdaniel: but asdf doesn't have that predefined
2020-12-17T19:36:14Z mister_m: I see
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2020-12-17T19:36:46Z tfb: kenran: the problem with finalizers is you have no idea when or if they run in a GCd language.
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2020-12-17T19:37:43Z phireh: Noob question: how can I compile a package after loading it with quicklisp? I'm trying to execute the cepl examples
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2020-12-17T19:38:34Z tfb: kenran: another Lisp pattern is the call-with-x / with-x pattern, where (with-x (c) ...) expands to (call-with-x (lambda (c) ...))
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2020-12-17T19:56:32Z rpg: mister_m: If you did that, how would you know what were the dependencies between the files in the system/
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2020-12-17T19:59:59Z rpg: mister_m, jackdaniel : "Here's a heap of lisp files, ASDF, do something with them."
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2020-12-17T20:02:24Z mister_m: that's where a topological sort would be needed
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2020-12-17T20:04:02Z borodust: fdddd: this dude that wrote that bodge.asd don't know how to write proper lisp, you really shouldn't follow any of his practices
2020-12-17T20:04:21Z mister_m: I don't know if it is odd or not that asdf does not have that baked in, but I don't really think about this in other langs
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2020-12-17T20:09:51Z pve: If you ensure that the files in a folder/module can be loaded in any order, then couldn't you specify dependencies at the module level instead?
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2020-12-17T20:11:23Z pve: not that it would be all that useful..
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2020-12-17T20:33:56Z rpg: mister_m: The reason that you don't see this in, for example, make, is that make builds individual artifacts in separate processes. ASDF assembles both the file artifacts *and the running image*, and maintaining the integrity of the running image is tricky
2020-12-17T20:34:17Z rpg: pve: Yes, you could.
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2020-12-17T20:35:55Z pve: rpg: ok, nice
2020-12-17T20:36:29Z rpg: pve: But ASDF won't discover the set of files in a directory for you and treat them as a module.
2020-12-17T20:36:52Z pve: rpg: yeah you need to define your own module, as jackdaniel said
2020-12-17T20:37:07Z pve: something like that might actually be useful in quick 'n' dirty situations
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2020-12-18T01:28:12Z dbotton: When creating a class, does one need to export every method/generic function? Is there any short cuts?
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2020-12-18T01:42:22Z dbotton: Currently I am just adding an (export 'some-method-name) before any method I want exported.
2020-12-18T01:45:55Z no-defun-allowed: You export every name you want other packages to be able to use.
2020-12-18T01:46:14Z no-defun-allowed: You don't need to export method names, as those are just names of generic functions.
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2020-12-18T01:53:01Z dbotton: If I use the implicit generic though would. Is there any reason specifically for create a generic for a simplistic method? It seems like a duplication of code outside of documentation (which in my purpose detracts not adds)
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2020-12-18T02:06:51Z no-defun-allowed: I'm afraid to ask why documentation detracts from your work.
2020-12-18T02:08:57Z dbotton: The opposite my works is heavily documented, it actually would detract to add another doc point.
2020-12-18T02:09:50Z dbotton: https://github.com/rabbibotton/clog/blob/main/clog.lisp
2020-12-18T02:10:31Z dbotton: I am documenting the methods which are picked up in the docs generated my mgl-pax
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2020-12-18T02:10:56Z dbotton: If I added the generics just adds superfluous info
2020-12-18T02:11:28Z no-defun-allowed: Well, you usually add a generic function, and put the documentation there.
2020-12-18T02:11:50Z no-defun-allowed: i.e the generic function documentation tells you what it does, and if you have method documentation, it describes how you do it.
2020-12-18T02:12:57Z dbotton: Ok, thanks
2020-12-18T02:14:01Z dbotton: The generic though would not per se be connected to the class? Is there a way to someone say this generic is in this part of a call hierarchy and bellow?
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2020-12-18T02:14:12Z dbotton: (Hope that makes sense_
2020-12-18T02:15:04Z Alfr: dbotton, generic functions and methods don't belong to classes.
2020-12-18T02:16:23Z dbotton: Yes I know in Ada and Lisp there is a type and they act on that type, but never the less
2020-12-18T02:16:57Z Alfr: dbotton, okay you didn't use "belong", but that association is quite ... lose.
2020-12-18T02:18:35Z no-defun-allowed: Methods belong to generic functions, not to classes.
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2020-12-18T02:18:46Z dbotton: Understood
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2020-12-18T02:19:39Z dbotton: Is there a way to indicate in a generic function that it is generic only to a certain class and the classes descendants?
2020-12-18T02:20:46Z Alfr: dbotton, and in CL generic functions only dispatch according to it's arguments' class not their types. (Ignoring eql specializers.)
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2020-12-18T02:22:26Z dbotton: Right. Let me see if I can give a quick example in code
2020-12-18T02:22:53Z dbotton: (defgeneric create-child (obj html &key auto-place))
2020-12-18T02:22:53Z dbotton: (defgeneric create-child (obj html &key auto-place))
2020-12-18T02:23:26Z dbotton: I want to say the obj has to be only from clog-obj are a child of it
2020-12-18T02:23:32Z dbotton: Os that possible?
2020-12-18T02:23:37Z Alfr: dbotton, you would simply not define methods for other argument combinations. Then those calls should end up calling no-applicable-method which by default will signal an error.
2020-12-18T02:24:26Z dbotton: Ok for the generic to act as "documentation" with out that not really adding anything?
2020-12-18T02:25:04Z dbotton: (defmethod create-child ((obj clog-obj) html &key (auto-place t))
2020-12-18T02:25:25Z dbotton: Is much more descriptive
2020-12-18T02:26:01Z Alfr: That will implicitly define the generic function create-child.
2020-12-18T02:26:02Z dbotton: And also says has to be clog-obj or child of it
2020-12-18T02:26:07Z dbotton: Right
2020-12-18T02:26:38Z dbotton: So I am trying to understand how that adds more documentation to not just use the implicit
2020-12-18T02:26:43Z dbotton: defgeneric
2020-12-18T02:27:12Z Alfr: dbotton, yes.
2020-12-18T02:27:52Z dbotton: Sorry (I can be thick) yes to?
2020-12-18T02:29:05Z Alfr: obj must a clog-obj for that method to applicable.
2020-12-18T02:31:10Z Alfr: dbotton, I don't think that I understand your motivation for you initial question.
2020-12-18T02:33:14Z Alfr: dbotton, it's fine to document your method only, if there's only going to be that one. But describing what the generic function is supposed to do with its arguments, may alleviate the need to document the methods.
2020-12-18T02:33:16Z Alfr shrugs.
2020-12-18T02:33:31Z dbotton: I was told a few times that it is better not to rely on the defgeneric as adding the generic would add to the documentation, I am trying to understand how
2020-12-18T02:34:21Z dbotton: No-defun-allowed though made a nice point of "doc" strings on the method perhaps being more for documenting the internals
2020-12-18T02:35:24Z dbotton: Sorry just recapping Alfr in hopes I haven't made too much a mess of the conversation
2020-12-18T02:36:29Z Alfr: All's well. :)
2020-12-18T02:37:02Z dbotton: I guess for now going to keep going with out the generics unless they add something and adding (export 'symbol) before methods meant to be "public"
2020-12-18T02:37:51Z dbotton: Thank you all
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2020-12-18T04:02:11Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-18T04:32:13Z beach: dbotton: The book "Object-oriented programming.  The CLOS perspective." mentions that DEFMETHOD was intended to be the main interface to the object system.  But in hindsight that was a mistake.
2020-12-18T04:32:18Z beach: It is a very common mistake to misspell the name of a generic function in a DEFMETHOD form, or to omit a required package prefix.  Then a new generic function is silently created, and the programmer has a bug that can be difficult to track down.
2020-12-18T04:32:22Z beach: For that reason, I am in favor of the implementation emitting a warning (STYLE-WARNING I guess) whenever a DEFMETHOD form is encountered that mentions the name of a generic function that has not previously been defined.
2020-12-18T04:32:23Z beach: As I understand it, SBCL used to emit such a warning, but it was removed according to request from the users.  I guess those users never make typos.
2020-12-18T04:33:17Z dbotton: thanks
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2020-12-18T04:34:47Z dbotton: I still have a few functional parts of my project to finish up but then have to decide on the "style" before fleshing out everything
2020-12-18T04:35:03Z beach: dbotton: It seems you are (again?) trying to use Common Lisp the way you would use a language with entirely different programming model.  If all you have is a single class and a single method, then write an ordinary function and an explicit check that the argument is an instance of that class.
2020-12-18T04:36:01Z dbotton: Why would I choose that over a method?
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2020-12-18T04:36:39Z dbotton: As a method it would imply a check for the class?
2020-12-18T04:36:56Z beach: Sort of.  It would also allow for subclasses of that class.
2020-12-18T04:37:25Z dbotton: Isn't that the case with a method and implicit generic as well?
2020-12-18T04:37:42Z beach: Yes, but that doesn't seem to be what you want to communicate.
2020-12-18T04:38:05Z dbotton: Not sure I see it, please explain
2020-12-18T04:38:34Z aeth: generic functions are used for polymorphism or for :before/:after/:around
2020-12-18T04:39:11Z dbotton: And I expect some may extend my hierarchy to use those
2020-12-18T04:39:21Z beach: If you allow for subclasses, then you have a CLOS protocol, and you should document what the protocol does and what it expects.  And that involves a set of generic functions together with documentation.  A method specialized to the base class is an implementation detail.
2020-12-18T04:39:25Z dbotton: I really like that feature
2020-12-18T04:40:38Z dbotton: What is meant my clos protocol?
2020-12-18T04:40:49Z beach: So by announcing the existence of a method, you are essentially (again?) writing code as if the class is the external protocol to be documented, but in CLOS, the external interface is a bunch of generic functions.
2020-12-18T04:41:16Z dbotton: That I think clarifies it better for me
2020-12-18T04:42:22Z dbotton: Although it seems that is more a matter of convention since there are implicit generics, ie clos's creators seemed to at least at start support a style with out the protocol written out
2020-12-18T04:42:23Z beach: A CLOS protocol is a set of generic functions and possibly a set of protocol classes (not meant to be instantiated).  Such a protocol is what you expose to the outside world, together with documentation about how these entities fit together.
2020-12-18T04:42:46Z dbotton: I like that
2020-12-18T04:42:59Z beach: Now you are confusing language semantics and software engineering.
2020-12-18T04:43:03Z dbotton: Would you have a small example of that
2020-12-18T04:43:21Z beach: I always create a DEFGENERIC form for every slot accessor I have.
2020-12-18T04:43:42Z beach: Let me see if I can find a small example...
2020-12-18T04:43:54Z dbotton: Appreciated
2020-12-18T04:44:05Z dbotton: Even larger ok
2020-12-18T04:45:33Z dbotton: I am used to writing a spec and body (roughly a header and body) and I like that format, ie a clear separation between implementation and design
2020-12-18T04:45:43Z beach: Take a look at the documentation of Cluffer.
2020-12-18T04:45:48Z dbotton: I am thinking this may bet be closer
2020-12-18T04:46:30Z beach: https:/github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer
2020-12-18T04:47:26Z beach: Wait, this one is easier...
2020-12-18T04:47:42Z beach: http://metamodular.com/cluffer.pdf
2020-12-18T04:47:47Z beach: Look at appendix A.
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2020-12-18T04:48:36Z dbotton: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer/blob/master/Base/internal-protocol.lisp
2020-12-18T04:48:40Z beach: As you can see, there is a set of protocol classes and a set of generic functions.
2020-12-18T04:48:51Z dbotton: Why not places those comments as documenting of the generic?
2020-12-18T04:48:54Z beach: Forget about the internal protocols for now.
2020-12-18T04:49:06Z beach: Yes, I will do that some day.
2020-12-18T04:49:50Z beach: I am not that much in favor of documentation strings.
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2020-12-18T04:49:57Z beach: I prefer real documentation.
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2020-12-18T04:50:38Z beach: But that's a different discussion.
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2020-12-18T04:54:29Z beach: dbotton: Frequently, a protocol will have protocol classes for which it provides little or no functionality, and then it will have implementation classes that are subclasses of the protocol classes (often named standard-...).  The methods of the module will be specialized to the implementation classes rather than to the protocol classes (with some exceptions).
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2020-12-18T04:55:10Z dbotton: I was just writing it seems like you are writing abstract classes
2020-12-18T04:55:12Z beach: This technique allows client code to subclass the protocol classes to avoid the default implementation provided by the module.
2020-12-18T04:55:39Z beach: The CLOS term is "protocol class".
2020-12-18T04:55:51Z dbotton: Ok
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2020-12-18T04:57:44Z beach: Technically, you should also document the method combination and the argument precedence order of your generic functions.
2020-12-18T04:57:58Z beach: And those are things you can't express with DEFMETHOD.
2020-12-18T04:58:08Z saganman: Morning beach
2020-12-18T04:58:26Z beach: Though, arguably, by default it is the STANDARD method combination, and the argument precedence order is the default.
2020-12-18T04:58:29Z dbotton: What do you mean by method combination
2020-12-18T04:59:12Z beach: clhs 7.6.6
2020-12-18T04:59:12Z specbot: Method Selection and Combination: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ff.htm
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2020-12-18T05:01:16Z dbotton: How would method combination change?
2020-12-18T05:01:58Z beach: I don't understand the question.
2020-12-18T05:02:17Z beach: The generic function is created with a particular method combination and that doesn't usually change.
2020-12-18T05:02:34Z dbotton: Right, so why would I document it?
2020-12-18T05:02:35Z beach: The method combination becomes part of the protocol to be documented.
2020-12-18T05:02:58Z dbotton: Unless there is a change that effects a user of the system
2020-12-18T05:03:00Z beach: Er, so that your clients know how to create methods?
2020-12-18T05:03:20Z beach: The method combination effects the behavior of client methods.
2020-12-18T05:03:27Z beach: affects
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2020-12-18T05:04:31Z beach: In traditional object-oriented languages, you only have one method combination, which is a subset of what the Common Lisp STANDARD method combination does.
2020-12-18T05:05:10Z dbotton: I assume unless I am changing the rules why would I document it?
2020-12-18T05:05:19Z beach: That's what I said.
2020-12-18T05:05:30Z beach: "Though, arguably, by default it is the STANDARD method combination, and the argument precedence order is the default."
2020-12-18T05:06:20Z dbotton: Sorry I perhaps got hung up on your previous statement "should also document", understood now
2020-12-18T05:07:35Z dbotton: Sorry cl is a huge system with very different lingo and very different approach to most everything :) getting there
2020-12-18T05:07:49Z beach: Good.
2020-12-18T05:08:13Z beach: My point is that the DEFGENERIC form is the place where you can attach things like the method combination being used, the argument precedence order, the method class, the documentation, etc.
2020-12-18T05:08:42Z beach: So the generic function is the thing that should be exposed to the client as part of the protocol.
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2020-12-18T05:09:58Z dbotton: The current project I am working on is not one that makes use of inheritance to use the system
2020-12-18T05:10:42Z dbotton: So may not be perfect fit, ie protocols used by the consumer of the system
2020-12-18T05:11:01Z beach: Then you definitely don't want to use DEFMETHOD, because then client code CAN create a subclass which you don't want.
2020-12-18T05:11:16Z dbotton: But it may make sense for someone extending things and docs as you mention
2020-12-18T05:11:41Z dbotton: Ie someone extending the system
2020-12-18T05:11:55Z beach: That's what CLOS was meant to do.
2020-12-18T05:12:00Z beach: to allow, I mean.
2020-12-18T05:15:09Z dbotton: I hope in a few weeks to have things well enough along to ask for advice on a more cl like structure for it so I can better underst
2020-12-18T05:15:16Z dbotton: Understand
2020-12-18T05:15:32Z beach: OK.
2020-12-18T05:20:21Z dbotton: Thank you as always, time to head to bed.
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2020-12-18T07:34:13Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I haven't considered documenting the argument precedence order or method combination; is it okay to assume the reader would expect them to be defaults (first argument to last, standard method combination)?
2020-12-18T07:34:25Z no-defun-allowed: Though I do have a couple of generic functions with non-default values for either.
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2020-12-18T07:35:28Z beach: I think it's OK to omit the documentation if they are the default.
2020-12-18T07:36:03Z no-defun-allowed: Right, thanks.
2020-12-18T07:36:06Z beach: If they are not default, I think that the client needs to know.  For example a method combination might require a mandatory qualifier.
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2020-12-18T11:38:26Z fdddd: (CL) Is it not permitted to have variable number of arguments to a generic function using defmethod? For instance having 2 arguments for some input combinations, and 3 arguments for some other input combinations.
2020-12-18T11:40:03Z phoe: fdddd: yes, but you cannot specialize on optional arguments
2020-12-18T11:40:09Z no-defun-allowed: You can use &optional, &rest and &key as usual for functions, but you cannot specialise on those arguments.
2020-12-18T11:40:14Z phoe: (defgeneric foo (bar baz &optional quux))
2020-12-18T11:40:24Z phoe: then specialize on BAR and BAZ
2020-12-18T11:40:53Z phoe: if you need a different behavior, then it's common to make QUUX optional but pass NIL in some cases to it - see e.g. MOP:ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION for an example.
2020-12-18T11:40:57Z phoe: mop ensure-generic-function
2020-12-18T11:40:58Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ensure-generic-function.html
2020-12-18T11:41:09Z phoe: uh wait not that
2020-12-18T11:41:11Z phoe: clhs ensure-class
2020-12-18T11:41:11Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for ensure-class.
2020-12-18T11:41:28Z phoe: clhs ensure-class-using-class
2020-12-18T11:41:28Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for ensure-class-using-class.
2020-12-18T11:41:41Z phoe: there - the CLASS argument is either a class metaobject or NIL
2020-12-18T11:42:16Z fdddd: Oh I see. I was specializing on the third parameter in one case, but I might just rename the method that takes only 2 arguments since it's a special case and for internal use only.
2020-12-18T11:42:33Z phoe: that would be even better
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2020-12-18T11:42:49Z phoe: especially if your GF is a part of your external API
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2020-12-18T11:46:10Z fdddd: Another question: Is it unwise/not possible to reuse accessor names for slots of different classes in the same package? Was reading yesterday about packages and from what I could understand the symbol used by each method (i.e. accessors?) had to be "exported" to be used elsewhere (or rather imported by users). Could this conflict with duplicate slot accessor names?
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2020-12-18T11:51:45Z joaot: fdddd
2020-12-18T11:52:04Z joaot: fdddd: Possible and not particularly unwise.
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2020-12-18T12:20:41Z jackdaniel: there is something about load-time-forms implementation what makes my brain go dizzy each time I work on it
2020-12-18T12:21:01Z jackdaniel: s/implementation/specification/ s/work on it/work on the implementation/
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2020-12-18T12:28:52Z shka_: fdddd: the trick is to think accessors as of any other generic function, that just happens to use cache in the form of the slot
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2020-12-18T12:30:00Z fdddd: shka_: What do you mean by "use cache in the form of the slot"?
2020-12-18T12:31:27Z shka_: i mean that a proper object oriented code does not use data structures with accessors but instead objects embedded within a communication protocol
2020-12-18T12:32:05Z shka_: and if you are doing the former, some of "messages" in the protocol are queries
2020-12-18T12:32:22Z shka_: and those queries just happens to be implemented as reader
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2020-12-18T12:33:50Z shka_: and if so, why it would matter? if you are asking for foo, it does not matter on what you are calling it
2020-12-18T12:34:00Z shka_: as long as you are getting consistent results
2020-12-18T12:34:17Z shka_: fdddd: makes sense?
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2020-12-18T12:36:48Z fdddd: I think I see what you mean. If you look at e.g. (foo ...) as the "query" and then give any applicable class you expect to get the foo field as a result either way, e.g. (foo class-x) or (foo class-y). Something like this?
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2020-12-18T13:41:45Z beach: fdddd: Yes, that happens somewhat often, like (NAME <object>) for instance.
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2020-12-18T13:43:30Z beach: fdddd: In older CLOS code, the convention seems to have been to prefix the accessor by some class name, presumably the protocol class, like (SHEET-PARENT <sheet>), but I think that is silly, and it is better to use the package system for that kind of stuff.
2020-12-18T13:45:38Z fdddd: beach: So you cannot have 2 classes in the same package with a slot/accessor called e.g. "name"?
2020-12-18T13:45:55Z beach: Yes, you can, and it happens fairly often.
2020-12-18T13:46:06Z beach: You just get two methods on the one generic function.
2020-12-18T13:46:10Z beach: And it's not a problem.
2020-12-18T13:47:38Z fdddd: Ahh I see. Makes sense. I guess I can look at this as working like (defmethod name ((name class-x)) ...) and (defmethod name ((name class-y)) ...) would?
2020-12-18T13:48:03Z beach: Yes, that's what happens really.
2020-12-18T13:48:15Z jackdaniel: I think that having different function names for separate protocols defined in the same package is not silly
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2020-12-18T13:48:54Z beach: jackdaniel: Right.  What is silly is to have more than one protocol defined in a single package.
2020-12-18T13:50:06Z beach: But it is possible to have two independent classes be member of the same protocol, and they both have a NAME accessor.
2020-12-18T13:50:11Z beach: I don't see a problem with that.
2020-12-18T13:50:28Z _death: fdddd: you should think about the generic function (say NAME).. you assign it certain semantics, and if a defmethod defined by defclass reader/writer is consistent with these semantics then it's ok
2020-12-18T13:50:54Z joaot: The protocol /is/ NAME, whoever adds methods to that GF is a member of that protocol
2020-12-18T13:50:58Z jackdaniel: I don't see the problem with two classes participating in the ame protocol, but imo having a single package per each protocol is good
2020-12-18T13:51:14Z jackdaniel: a package per protocol*
2020-12-18T13:51:29Z beach: joaot: Not quite.  A protocol contains a bunch of generic functions and a bunch of classes.
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2020-12-18T13:52:43Z beach: jackdaniel: I agree (if I understand you right).
2020-12-18T13:53:11Z joaot: CLHS doens't define "protocol" afaik. You can define it the way you like. For me a GF is a protocol, an interface if you prefer.  Its docstrings says what goes in and what comes out.
2020-12-18T13:53:24Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.
2020-12-18T13:53:28Z _death: joaot: check out the clim spec
2020-12-18T13:54:01Z _death: or AMOP..
2020-12-18T13:54:04Z jackdaniel: what I'm saying is that having a single implementation package which hosts multiple protocols makes more sense than having multiple packages for each protocol, even if that implies separate names like sheet-parent and output-record-parent
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2020-12-18T13:54:55Z joaot: I just know CL, but sure, maybe I shouldn't use the word "protoco"l if its loaded with that specific meaning
2020-12-18T13:54:58Z beach: _death: Also Keene, page 30.
2020-12-18T13:55:21Z beach: joaot: It is already used in a specific way by all the sources cited.
2020-12-18T13:56:10Z joaot: Well it's not in the bible's glossary: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/26_glo_p.htm :-D
2020-12-18T13:56:20Z joaot: but sure s/protocol/joaosprotocol/g
2020-12-18T13:56:40Z beach: "The generic functions taken together can be called a protocol.  A protocol encompasses the complete behavior of the objects in the program."
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2020-12-18T13:56:56Z joaot: I was just trying to convey how I I think about GFs
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2020-12-18T13:57:49Z _death: beach: nice.. it only speaks of a set of GFs, whereas the clim spec also has a "protocol class" if I recall correctly.. but close enough
2020-12-18T13:58:10Z beach: Yes, protocol classes can be included, and initargs.
2020-12-18T13:58:59Z _death: joaot: it's true that a protocol may consist of a single GF and nothing more
2020-12-18T13:59:29Z joaot: _death: Though in practice it seldom does. Yes, a GF is a only a piece of a protocol
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2020-12-18T14:00:54Z joaot: What I find hard to convey no people from other languages is that one can use the same GF across different classes of objects. And that it's fine to do that.
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2020-12-18T14:02:07Z beach: joaot: You can do what I have practiced for a long time.  Avoid trying to make those people understand by not talking about Common Lisp to them.
2020-12-18T14:02:41Z phoe: beach: kinda not viable in the long run
2020-12-18T14:02:43Z joaot: Heh, the high-horse approach
2020-12-18T14:03:02Z beach: phoe: I just let people like you do it in my place. :)
2020-12-18T14:03:09Z _death: or talk Common Lisp to them and leave it to them to understand ;)
2020-12-18T14:03:17Z phoe: beach: hah
2020-12-18T14:03:34Z phoe: touché
2020-12-18T14:03:38Z beach: :)
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2020-12-18T14:04:27Z jmercouris: any pure Lisp sqlite libraries not relying on a shared library?
2020-12-18T14:04:36Z phoe: jmercouris: you mean not relying on libsqlite?
2020-12-18T14:04:44Z phoe: you can't have that
2020-12-18T14:04:49Z jmercouris: I see, why not?
2020-12-18T14:04:54Z phoe: mostly because sqlite only has one real implementation, AFAIK
2020-12-18T14:04:55Z jmercouris: because API changes?
2020-12-18T14:05:01Z jmercouris: OK, fair enough
2020-12-18T14:05:02Z phoe: and that implementation is written in C.
2020-12-18T14:05:16Z jmercouris: well yeah, but sqlite files should be readable by anything really
2020-12-18T14:05:25Z phoe: yes, but that requires reimplementing sqlite.
2020-12-18T14:05:29Z jmercouris: yes
2020-12-18T14:05:31Z phoe: or at least a large chunk of it
2020-12-18T14:05:35Z jmercouris: that's basically what I was asking
2020-12-18T14:05:51Z jmercouris: I guess it is not public API then
2020-12-18T14:05:53Z phoe: and I'm not of aware of any project that reimplements that part, even outside Lisp
2020-12-18T14:06:10Z jmercouris: one more question
2020-12-18T14:06:16Z jmercouris: any open source documentation libraries?
2020-12-18T14:06:19Z phoe: the format seems well specified at https://www.sqlite.org/fileformat.html
2020-12-18T14:06:21Z jmercouris: something like Dash, but open source?
2020-12-18T14:06:43Z phoe: MGL-PAX was recently on reddit; something like that?
2020-12-18T14:06:46Z beach: Wow, the stuff #lisp participants are expected to know.
2020-12-18T14:06:57Z jmercouris: hm, that is quite well specified
2020-12-18T14:07:24Z jmercouris: :-)
2020-12-18T14:07:34Z jmercouris: not like MGL-PAX, I'm looking for datasets that I can parse in Lisp
2020-12-18T14:07:47Z jmercouris: I looked at Dash, but their license seems to imply I cannot use the database
2020-12-18T14:08:02Z jmercouris: "You are not allowed to distribute or make use of any of the files within this folder ("Resources") without written permission from Kapeli or whilst using the Dash app developed by Kapeli. This does not apply to the files located within the "Documents" folder."
2020-12-18T14:08:19Z jmercouris: the part that gets me is the 'make use of'
2020-12-18T14:08:35Z jmercouris: otherwise I could produce some derivative from the data, not sure if that is even an enforcable clause
2020-12-18T14:08:40Z phoe: what's your use case though?
2020-12-18T14:08:44Z jmercouris: Imagine a book that said 'you are not allowed to make usage of the information in this book'
2020-12-18T14:09:00Z jmercouris: I am trying to make a documentation reader/helper for Nyxt
2020-12-18T14:09:08Z phoe: oh, I see
2020-12-18T14:09:20Z phoe: something like ccldoc perhaps.
2020-12-18T14:09:32Z Bike: that clause sounds enforceable to me, and anyway you probably shouldn't "agree" to a contract/license based on the idea that it's not real
2020-12-18T14:09:33Z phoe: it could use some polish and modernization mayhaps
2020-12-18T14:09:35Z Bike: or so i've heard lawyers say
2020-12-18T14:09:35Z jmercouris: yeah that would work, I'm not super worried about the format of the data
2020-12-18T14:10:01Z jmercouris: Bike: can you rephrase, I don't understand what you've said, and I will not construe it as legal advice :-D
2020-12-18T14:10:06Z Bike: that is kind of an annoying sounding license though
2020-12-18T14:10:32Z jmercouris: phoe: the value is in the datasets, I can make whatever parser is necessary
2020-12-18T14:10:43Z jmercouris: I've thought about reindexing the dash datasets using our text analysis technology in Nyxt
2020-12-18T14:10:52Z jmercouris: however, will it ever be as good as hand curated datasets?
2020-12-18T14:10:59Z phoe: jmercouris: what do you mean, "datasets"?\
2020-12-18T14:11:02Z jmercouris: it may be more extensive, but resulting in more false positives
2020-12-18T14:11:28Z jmercouris: so a dash docset contains a sqlite database file, three columns: "name, type, path"
2020-12-18T14:11:42Z jmercouris: example CL print function, "print, function, clhs path to print function"
2020-12-18T14:11:58Z jmercouris: it also contains a 'documents' directory that contains all of the assets pointed to by the database
2020-12-18T14:12:10Z phoe: okay, the API seems similar to that of #'CL:DOCUMENTATION
2020-12-18T14:12:20Z jmercouris: yeah, it isn't particularly novel
2020-12-18T14:12:24Z jmercouris: I don't care so much about the format though
2020-12-18T14:12:31Z jmercouris: I care mostly about the availability of data
2020-12-18T14:12:54Z jmercouris: s/data/sanitized processed data
2020-12-18T14:13:46Z dbotton: Phoe I am using mgl-pax, I am enjoying the doc -> markdown etc but then I like to document as I write code
2020-12-18T14:17:42Z phoe: what sorta datasets are you looking for? that no longer sounds strictly Lisp-related
2020-12-18T14:18:08Z jmercouris: well, it isn't strictly Lisp specific... I'm looking for any documentation format/data that is widely adopted/used
2020-12-18T14:18:16Z jmercouris: can't seem to find anything besides dash
2020-12-18T14:18:27Z dbotton: Info like in emacs?
2020-12-18T14:18:27Z jmercouris: why is it related to lisp? should I find this dataset, it will gain a Lisp interface :-D
2020-12-18T14:19:09Z jmercouris: I guess you could say that
2020-12-18T14:20:41Z jmercouris: hm, closest parallel: https://github.com/zealdocs/zeal
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2020-12-18T14:45:45Z dbotton: Beach I am switching my base to use the defgenerics to document etc, if I have a key with a default value that is not expressed, would you just mention that in your :documentation on the defgeneric?
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2020-12-18T14:48:21Z dbotton: (defgeneric create-child (clog-obj html &key auto-place)
2020-12-18T14:48:21Z dbotton:   (:documentation "Create a new CLOG-OBJ from HTML element as child of OBJ and if :AUTO-PLACE
2020-12-18T14:48:21Z dbotton: place-inside-bottom-of OBJ (defaults to t)"))
2020-12-18T14:49:20Z _death: yes.. and note that defgeneric documentation should be both for callers and for specializers
2020-12-18T14:49:55Z dbotton: Ok
2020-12-18T14:49:57Z _death: it may make sense to split the audience, so that there are two functions
2020-12-18T14:50:47Z dbotton: So no issue to redefine a generic?
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2020-12-18T14:52:27Z beach: Yes, I tend to agree with _death.
2020-12-18T14:52:54Z _death: what I mean is two have a create-child function for callers (that takes the keyword arguments), and a create-child-gf (think of a better name) that takes 3 required arguments, for example
2020-12-18T14:53:00Z beach: Generic functions can be redefined.
2020-12-18T14:53:02Z _death: *to have
2020-12-18T14:53:33Z beach: dbotton: What _death is saying is a very common practice.
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2020-12-18T14:54:21Z beach: dbotton: For example WRITE-CHAR may call STREAM-WRITE-CHAR with two required arguments.
2020-12-18T14:55:02Z beach: dbotton: It is then also common to have the end-user function be an ordinary function (like WRITE-CHAR).
2020-12-18T14:55:18Z _death: right, and sometimes that kind of separation leads to a better protocol, which Gray streams miss because they mostly parrot the caller interface
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2020-12-18T14:57:41Z dbotton: So you end up with two protocols in the end? are you keeping both in same file (I assume same package)?
2020-12-18T14:57:54Z dbotton: One to use one to extend
2020-12-18T14:58:33Z _death: here's an old rant https://gist.github.com/death/5356be28dc3332caa189c91880fe12c6
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2020-12-18T14:59:39Z beach: dbotton: Whether you consider them part of the same protocol or two separate protocols is not terribly important.  They can be in the same package or in different packages.
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2020-12-18T15:02:23Z beach: dbotton: For example, in SICL, the function FLOOR (with one required and one optional parmeter) and the generic version GENERIC-FLOOR (with two required parameters) are both defined in the package SICL-ARITHMETIC.  However, since that package :USEs the COMMON-LISP package, FLOOR is the symbol in the COMMON-LISP package and GENERIC-FLOOR is a symbol in the SICL-ARITHMETIC package.
2020-12-18T15:04:43Z beach: So FLOOR is defined like this: (defun floor (number &optional (divisor 1)) (generic-floor number divisor)) with no additional package prefixes and such.
2020-12-18T15:05:15Z dbotton: ok
2020-12-18T15:05:31Z dbotton: I'll think it through
2020-12-18T15:06:00Z jmercouris: how to download a file through dexador get? should I write the body to a file stream?
2020-12-18T15:06:43Z jmercouris: I won't be able to extract a tar file in Lisp either... will I?
2020-12-18T15:07:10Z phoe: jmercouris: there are deflate decoders in lisp
2020-12-18T15:07:48Z jmercouris: chipz?
2020-12-18T15:07:53Z _death: and a library called "archive"
2020-12-18T15:08:29Z jmercouris: not the easiest library to search for
2020-12-18T15:08:46Z _death: (ql:system-apropos "archive") pretty easy
2020-12-18T15:08:57Z jmercouris: https://www.cliki.net/compression
2020-12-18T15:09:01Z jmercouris: _death: 11
2020-12-18T15:09:34Z shinohai: jmercouris: with chipz https://dpaste.com/9EYWE7KR9
2020-12-18T15:10:01Z jmercouris: shinohai: thank you
2020-12-18T15:10:45Z shinohai: np forgot where I found that tidbit, used it for a script a couple years ago, but worked a++
2020-12-18T15:11:05Z jmercouris: not the most straightforward looking API
2020-12-18T15:11:18Z jmercouris: would have taken me a while
2020-12-18T15:12:08Z shinohai: I tried using an ugly uiop:run-program hack, but had mixed results. xD
2020-12-18T15:12:21Z jmercouris: I was very close to doing that myself as well
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2020-12-18T15:21:10Z jmercouris: what is wrong with: https://dpaste.com/DSA6XBDRP ?
2020-12-18T15:21:20Z jmercouris: trying to write a octect vector to a file...
2020-12-18T15:23:23Z _death: you need :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)
2020-12-18T15:23:37Z _death: also, I think you can get dex:get to get you a stream
2020-12-18T15:23:52Z jmercouris: I believe you are right about the stream
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2020-12-18T15:24:30Z _death: (why can't these things take a stream?)
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2020-12-18T15:25:08Z jmercouris: thanks _death
2020-12-18T15:25:14Z jmercouris: I had forgotten that
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2020-12-18T15:36:33Z beach: phoe: Can you explain in a sentence or two why restart-case checks whether the restartable-form is a signaling form?
2020-12-18T15:37:32Z phoe: beach: condition-restart association.
2020-12-18T15:37:49Z beach: Is that a requirement?
2020-12-18T15:37:49Z phoe: clhs restart-case
2020-12-18T15:37:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rst_ca.htm
2020-12-18T15:37:58Z phoe: "If the restartable-form is a list whose car is any of the symbols signal, error, cerror, or warn (or is a macro form which macroexpands into such a list), then with-condition-restarts is used implicitly to associate the indicated restarts with the condition to be signaled."
2020-12-18T15:37:59Z shka_: fdddd: for what is worth i subscribe to _death point of view
2020-12-18T15:38:04Z phoe: Yes, this is mandatory.
2020-12-18T15:38:09Z beach: Got it.  Thanks!
2020-12-18T15:38:29Z beach: I should have read more carefully before asking.  Sorry about that.
2020-12-18T15:38:44Z phoe: no problem, I have the condition system in my caches so it's much easier for me to answer
2020-12-18T15:38:54Z beach: True dat.
2020-12-18T15:40:04Z phoe: especially with regard to really hipster features of the condition system that most people don't even notice most of the time, such as condition-restart association
2020-12-18T15:40:14Z phoe: or handler clustering.
2020-12-18T15:40:29Z beach: Sure.
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2020-12-18T15:53:06Z kevingal: Anyone know how to increase dynamic heap size when you're using Portacle? I've tried adding `(setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl --dynamic-space-size 10240")` to user.cl, but no luck. And grepping the Portacle directories for "inferior-lisp-program" doesn't bring up anything obvious.
2020-12-18T15:55:10Z _death: try (setq slime-default-lisp 'sbcl slime-lisp-implementations '((sbcl ("sbcl" "--dynamic-space-size" "10GB"))))
2020-12-18T15:55:11Z _death:  
2020-12-18T15:56:16Z _death: I don't use portacle, but that's similar to what I have in my .emacs
2020-12-18T15:56:50Z kevingal: I see, I found some config where Portacle sets slime-lisp-implementations.
2020-12-18T15:57:54Z kevingal: Somehow missed this answer: https://stackoverflow.com/a/10872585/1840198
2020-12-18T15:57:57Z kevingal: Well, cheers!
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2020-12-18T15:58:35Z jmercouris: cheers :-)
2020-12-18T15:59:11Z _death: kevingal: btw your name sounded familiar.. turns out I liked your blog posts ;)
2020-12-18T15:59:44Z jmercouris: A compliment from _death ! record the date! :-D
2020-12-18T16:00:11Z jmercouris: and beach used slang, what is going on in 2020
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2020-12-18T16:00:21Z kevingal: Someone reads those? :D
2020-12-18T16:00:34Z shka_: apparently so
2020-12-18T16:00:48Z jmercouris: You'd be surprised how many people silently consume resources
2020-12-18T16:00:52Z jmercouris: we are the minority actually speaking
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2020-12-18T16:01:25Z kevingal: I'm a mostly silent consumer myself, for shame.
2020-12-18T16:01:59Z jackdaniel: given how much low quality material is distributed over the internet it is hard to find good reads anyway
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2020-12-18T16:02:07Z phoe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_(Internet_culture)
2020-12-18T16:02:18Z beach: jmercouris: What slang?
2020-12-18T16:02:27Z jmercouris: beach: "True dat."
2020-12-18T16:02:31Z beach: Ah, heh.
2020-12-18T16:02:45Z jmercouris: real talk true story
2020-12-18T16:02:46Z loke[m]: Argh... Is there a way to get a git log of a repository without doing a clone?
2020-12-18T16:02:47Z shka_: uhm
2020-12-18T16:02:49Z shka_: that happend
2020-12-18T16:02:55Z jmercouris: loke[m]: no
2020-12-18T16:02:57Z shka_: yes it did
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2020-12-18T16:03:15Z jmercouris: loke[m]: creating the log requires a copy of the repository
2020-12-18T16:03:35Z loke[m]: jmercouris: All I want is the ID of the most recent commit on master actually.
2020-12-18T16:03:38Z jmercouris: loke[m]: the remote machine could make the log for you
2020-12-18T16:03:49Z loke[m]: I'm building a script that generated a Climaxima build and it needs those build ID's.
2020-12-18T16:03:55Z jmercouris: loke[m]: you will still need to query the remote machine
2020-12-18T16:03:59Z loke[m]: Sure.
2020-12-18T16:04:07Z loke[m]: But I don't want to have to do a clone.
2020-12-18T16:04:11Z jmercouris: yes
2020-12-18T16:04:27Z jmercouris: so you are better of implementing the script that returns the latest commit and running it on the other machine
2020-12-18T16:04:32Z loke[m]: For Maxima in particular, a full clone takes a ridiculous amount of time, when all I need is the build id.
2020-12-18T16:04:33Z jmercouris: if you don't have control of the other machine, it is not possible
2020-12-18T16:04:44Z loke[m]: The other machine is Sourceforge
2020-12-18T16:04:52Z jmercouris: perhaps it is in their API
2020-12-18T16:04:57Z loke[m]: I think github has an API for it, but SF?
2020-12-18T16:05:45Z jmercouris: I'm not familiar I'm afraid
2020-12-18T16:05:48Z scymtym: loke[m]: some invocation of git ls-remote should do that
2020-12-18T16:06:04Z loke[m]: aha
2020-12-18T16:06:45Z loke[m]: scymtym: that's it! Thanks.
2020-12-18T16:06:47Z jmercouris: thats incredibly useful
2020-12-18T16:06:58Z loke[m]: `git ls-remote url refs/heads/master`
2020-12-18T16:07:02Z scymtym: loke[m]: https://github.com/RDTK/generator/blob/master/src/analysis/git.lisp#L349
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2020-12-18T17:42:22Z jdz: loke[m]: It's possible to make a shallow clone (--depth 1).
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2020-12-18T18:24:06Z pyc: Here is my code and output: https://pastebin.com/We9Ka4aq Why does hunchentoot not start and listen on port 4242 when I run this code?
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2020-12-18T18:28:30Z rpg: pyc: What do you see when you hit port 4242?  How do you know that hunchentoot didn't start?  What happens if you do (trace hunchentoot:start) ?
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2020-12-18T18:29:25Z pyc: rpg: oh! it did start!
2020-12-18T18:30:57Z pyc: Is it common to have (ql:quickload ...) expressions in the main source code?
2020-12-18T18:31:50Z lotuseater: hm i think yes for standalone files or "scripts"
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2020-12-18T18:33:31Z pyc: lotuseater: in which case (ql:quickload ...) should not be part of the main source code?
2020-12-18T18:33:34Z lotuseater: you may have same in the rc file for your implementation eg .sbclrc
2020-12-18T18:34:07Z lotuseater: pyc: for defined packages and asdf systems
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2020-12-18T18:38:50Z rpg: pyc: If you build a more substantial system for your web server, it would be normal to put the dependency on hunchentoot into your own (ASDF) system definition.  But for this kind of early experimentation, what you are doing is fine (IMO).
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2020-12-18T18:53:19Z puchacz: hi, does anybody know how Eitaro Fukamachi was launching sbcl from node.js to build an electron application?
2020-12-18T18:53:44Z puchacz: I found slides about this https://www.slideshare.net/fukamachi/building-gui-app-with-electron-and-lisp
2020-12-18T18:54:03Z puchacz: maybe if I knew node.js it would be obvious how to do it :)
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2020-12-18T18:56:00Z pyc: How is that both (ql:quickload "hunchentoot") and (ql:quickload :hunchentoot) work fine? Is one of them preferred over the other?
2020-12-18T18:56:40Z puchacz: pyc - this function takes a "string designator" as the argument type presumably
2020-12-18T18:56:47Z phoe: ^
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2020-12-18T18:57:27Z puchacz: so you have a few types defined in CLHS that coercible to string and how the coercion / conversion is done
2020-12-18T18:57:38Z puchacz: keywords, symbols, strings themselves
2020-12-18T18:57:48Z puchacz: not sure what else
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2020-12-18T18:58:21Z phoe: AFAIR characters denote single-element strings
2020-12-18T18:58:46Z phoe: yes, characters + symbols + strings
2020-12-18T18:59:50Z entre-parenteses: puchacz: I can't say for sure, but he may have been using ceramic?
2020-12-18T18:59:54Z entre-parenteses: puchacz: https://ceramic.github.io/
2020-12-18T19:00:39Z puchacz: entre-parenteses - I don't think so, ceremic is the other way round - Lisp starts chrome process, and there is no node.js I think
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2020-12-18T19:00:55Z puchacz: I would evaluate both ways with or without node
2020-12-18T19:02:27Z puchacz: this slide: https://image.slidesharecdn.com/building-gui-with-lisp-170327133733/95/building-gui-app-with-electron-and-lisp-28-638.jpg?cb=1490627834
2020-12-18T19:02:43Z entre-parenteses: Oh, yeah.  I guess I misread your question.  Node.js has this: https://nodejs.org/docs/latest-v13.x/api/child_process.html that might do it?
2020-12-18T19:03:21Z puchacz: if you know node.js, does it sound like the right way :) ? I intend to learn just enough node.js to try his way :)
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2020-12-18T19:04:15Z susam: Time and again I mistype `M-x slime` as `M-x smile`. Something wrong with the wiring in my brain I guess.
2020-12-18T19:04:26Z susam: By the way, `:smile` happens to be a valid command in Vim.
2020-12-18T19:06:36Z entre-parenteses: I'd assume this is at least acceptable given it's part of the API but I couldn't say, for sure, if that's the "right way".  I only know enough about node to be able to do some side projects - I've never used it in a professional capacity that would require me to know the right way of doing things.
2020-12-18T19:06:52Z entre-parenteses: Sorry I don't have a better answer for you.
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2020-12-18T19:07:03Z puchacz: thanks
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2020-12-18T21:17:46Z dbotton: Is there a way to create a setf function from a method?
2020-12-18T21:18:16Z dbotton: (Or perhaps should say from a defgeneric)?
2020-12-18T21:19:08Z _death: sure
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2020-12-18T21:19:48Z _death: setf functions are just functions with a name like (setf foo) that receive the new value as their first argument and should also return it when they're done
2020-12-18T21:20:42Z dbotton: So use defsetf?
2020-12-18T21:20:54Z phoe: or defun, or defmethod
2020-12-18T21:21:03Z phoe: (defun (setf foo) (newval ...) ...)
2020-12-18T21:21:13Z phoe: (defmethod (setf foo) (newval ...) ...)
2020-12-18T21:21:26Z _death: defsetf is not how you define a setf function
2020-12-18T21:25:17Z dbotton: So if doing a defmethod would do a generic also?
2020-12-18T21:25:26Z phoe: what do you mean, would do a generic also?
2020-12-18T21:25:46Z dbotton: (defgeneric  (setf foo) (n))
2020-12-18T21:25:47Z phoe: (defmethod (setf foo) ...) implies (defgeneric (setf foo) ...)
2020-12-18T21:25:54Z phoe: yes
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2020-12-18T21:32:31Z dbotton: Is there a way to make this in to a setf (defmethod set-property ((obj clog-obj) property-name value)
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2020-12-18T21:33:35Z phoe: what does set-property do?
2020-12-18T21:33:42Z mfiano: (defmethod (setf property) (value (obj clog-obj) property-name) ..)
2020-12-18T21:33:49Z dbotton: (setf (property obj "color") red)
2020-12-18T21:33:57Z phoe: yes, then what mfiano said
2020-12-18T21:34:43Z dbotton: thanks
2020-12-18T21:37:27Z rumbler31: anyone familiar with using cxml or otherwise processing xml, I could use some ideas.  I have a bunch of template files that have been filled in with data.  now the template files themselves have received updates (I'll call them my input files), and I need to go through and update each input file by checking for missing children or updated metadata.  I'm going to be doing a lot of (find the parent who's child
2020-12-18T21:37:29Z rumbler31: text contains "this key" and iterate through all of the children in the new template to see if there are any new children and add them to the parent, etc)
2020-12-18T21:39:03Z rumbler31: right now I just have a tree of objects from cxml.  In xml processing systems there is usually support for XPath style "selectors" or outright XQueries, and i'm wondering where the best xml support in lisp lives
2020-12-18T21:41:05Z dbotton: So my generic looks like this? (defgeneric (setf property) (value obj property-name)
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2020-12-18T21:43:42Z Nilby: rumbler31: I think lquery is good, but I also find traditional Lisp tools good enough to operate on a parsed XML tree, in my case loaded with plump.
2020-12-18T21:46:54Z Nilby: rumbler31: There's also clip for templating, in Shinmera's -ecosystem, but I haven't tried it yet.
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2020-12-18T21:48:54Z dbotton: In this case exporting just the property symbol would cover both the setf and the regular method correct?
2020-12-18T21:49:19Z phoe: yes
2020-12-18T21:49:58Z rpg: dbotton: Yes, because you don't export functions, only symbols.  So anything that is attached to the symbol is exported.
2020-12-18T21:50:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: rumbler31: there are also xpath-related stuff in CXML
2020-12-18T21:50:21Z dbotton: Thanks
2020-12-18T21:50:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://common-lisp.net/project/plexippus-xpath/examples.html
2020-12-18T21:53:34Z rumbler31: ahh nice
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2020-12-18T22:01:52Z dbotton: Thanks, now things look lispier :)
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2020-12-18T22:10:11Z moon-child: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWr4iQfc0uw
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2020-12-18T22:13:59Z moon-child: (sadly, they don't have the transparent persistence of a proper lisp os, but the rest of the major pieces seem to be there)
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2020-12-18T23:41:07Z Dizidentu: whats the neatest thing u can code in lisp
2020-12-18T23:41:36Z duuqnd: yes
2020-12-18T23:41:45Z Dizidentu: agreed
2020-12-18T23:45:11Z curiouscain: You can code whatever you like
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2020-12-18T23:47:19Z aeth: Dizidentu: something like this? (note: not all of them are Common Lisp). https://itch.io/jam/autumn-lisp-game-jam-2020/results
2020-12-18T23:47:55Z Dizidentu: glad it can
2020-12-18T23:48:10Z Dizidentu: but I understand that the strong points are in the toolset
2020-12-18T23:48:39Z no-defun-allowed: "not all" is an understatement.
2020-12-18T23:48:44Z Dizidentu: but yeah, I would code a game with lisp if I wasnt a cpp monkey xd
2020-12-18T23:49:01Z lotuseater: aeth: spilljakers looks like DOOM prototyped
2020-12-18T23:49:22Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe even none of them are Common Lisp?
2020-12-18T23:49:36Z duuqnd: The Lisp game jams are always so disappointing
2020-12-18T23:49:50Z duuqnd: I mean, the intention is good, but it's always just fennel and shit
2020-12-18T23:50:00Z moon-child: Dizidentu: i made a game engine with d, using lisp as a scripting language
2020-12-18T23:50:13Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not going to comment (okay, well, what duuqnd said) because I don't make games other than Doom maps.
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2020-12-18T23:50:48Z no-defun-allowed: But from what I've heard about #lispgames, making game engines is the easier part of making games in Lisp.
2020-12-18T23:51:14Z duuqnd: I think the problem is that most people who want to make games in Lisp have a hard time finishing games
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2020-12-18T23:52:33Z lotuseater: moon-child: sounds also great :)
2020-12-18T23:53:30Z aeth: lotuseater: looks more like Wolf 3D than Doom to me. Thick, blocky walls, although they have varying heights, unlike Wolf 3D. No varying floor heights like in Doom, though.
2020-12-18T23:53:31Z moon-child: duuqnd: can relate...
2020-12-18T23:54:06Z lotuseater: aeth: hm yes you're right, i intended to mean it non specific
2020-12-18T23:54:28Z no-defun-allowed: The "neatest" thing I did this week was probably to port my async code to use "monads" and do-notation.
2020-12-18T23:54:37Z duuqnd: I looked through the games from the 2020 Lisp game jam. One game in Racket, one used Guile, and the rest used garbage lisps. Maybe I should've made an entry after all...
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2020-12-18T23:55:08Z lotuseater: no-defun-allowed: really? o_O what do you use or how did you accomplish that? :)
2020-12-18T23:55:13Z no-defun-allowed: https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/cl-decentralise2/-/blob/master/Code/Client/actions.lisp#L68-85 is all I needed to implement it.
2020-12-18T23:56:04Z no-defun-allowed: Though I call them "actions" to scare off Haskell programmers, and to not scare off non-Haskell programmers.
2020-12-18T23:56:14Z lotuseater: i once saw on rosettacode under "Metaprogramming" some approaches to that stuff
2020-12-18T23:56:49Z no-defun-allowed: I don't recall the rules for translating do into >>=, but they're quite simple, and a quick REDUCE makes the form I want.
2020-12-18T23:57:17Z aeth: that FPS looking game is in the browser so I can play it, and it's definitely intended to be more retro than even Wolf3D
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2020-12-18T23:57:40Z aeth: so weird using retro controls even though I've played a lot of retro FPSes over the years... the arrow keys where you don't strafe with left/right, you rotate
2020-12-18T23:57:45Z no-defun-allowed: Hovertank 3d?
2020-12-18T23:57:46Z lotuseater: yes i now what you mean, have to remember that also (or WHY that works)
2020-12-18T23:58:02Z duuqnd: That game honestly looks so basic that even hovertank 3d looks impressive by comparising
2020-12-18T23:58:10Z duuqnd: comparison*
2020-12-18T23:58:23Z no-defun-allowed: do a <- b; c is a >>= (\b -> c) ad do a; b is a >> b
2020-12-18T23:58:40Z lotuseater: yes you're right
2020-12-18T23:58:56Z no-defun-allowed: do let a = b; c is also let a = b in c, and you basically wrap around the last form, then the second last, third, etc to produce the desugared form.
2020-12-18T23:59:20Z lotuseater: people always got confused when i said to them "no here we don't start with 'Hello World'"
2020-12-18T23:59:55Z aeth: duuqnd: The problem with game jams is that if you can actually make a game with your Lisp game engine, you might as well just make and sell it
2020-12-18T23:59:56Z no-defun-allowed: I like it because I can manipulate actions as values before running them, so I could do (then ... (if something this-action that-action)), and it could be easier to compose, like (then* (f) (g)) over (f :callback (g)) or something.
2020-12-19T00:00:06Z lotuseater: or that return is another thing, wrapping it to the monad again
2020-12-19T00:00:54Z duuqnd: IIRC there's someone who's in the process of making a commercial game in Lisp.
2020-12-19T00:01:08Z duuqnd: Was it Shinmera?
2020-12-19T00:01:36Z moon-child: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/k7yha5/kandria_a_2d_hack_slash_platformer_written_in/
2020-12-19T00:01:47Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, Shinmera et al are making https://store.steampowered.com/app/1261430/Kandria/ in Common Lisp.
2020-12-19T00:01:58Z duuqnd: Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of.
2020-12-19T00:02:57Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, you use return (cl-d2: finish) to lop off an action.
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2020-12-19T00:05:25Z no-defun-allowed: lotuseater: Generally, I've heard monads don't really make sense with mutation or without type maths to decide which implementation of >>= makes sense, and so on. But you can't have uncontrolled mutation in concurrent programs, and I only have one action protocol, so I can get away with it.
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2020-12-19T00:06:22Z lotuseater: good
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2020-12-19T00:09:20Z no-defun-allowed: duuqnd: You don't have to dunk on anyone in the game jam to make your point. (But I find pretend small machines boring, unless it's MY pretend small machine, in which case it's very fun...)
2020-12-19T00:10:32Z duuqnd: I was more thinking of making an entry just so there'd be some Common Lisp representation, even if it'd be a crappy little game by me.
2020-12-19T00:11:15Z no-defun-allowed: (Mostly because I have to decide what "bloat" I want to put in it, and I have slowly been looking at compiling to machine code, so that I can try larger experiments with it.)
2020-12-19T00:13:45Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: "late 2022" so there's plenty of time for someone to release first.
2020-12-19T00:14:15Z no-defun-allowed: Who cares?
2020-12-19T00:15:02Z aeth: someone might care
2020-12-19T00:15:18Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think someone will make another Kandria, at least.
2020-12-19T00:15:33Z aeth: no
2020-12-19T00:16:23Z aeth: And, importantly, this is an already-present result. https://github.com/Shinmera/cl-steamworks
2020-12-19T00:17:32Z duuqnd: I was working on a first-person shooter at one point, but then I realized that my engine was garbage and I didn't have the time nor energy to fix it, so I gave up. It didn't help that I'm not very good at game development.
2020-12-19T00:17:50Z aeth: duuqnd: Lower your standards. Can you do Quake? Doom?
2020-12-19T00:18:33Z aeth: Or something like this? https://store.steampowered.com/app/519860/DUSK/
2020-12-19T00:18:41Z no-defun-allowed: Those are still well above a 128x96 top down tile thing.
2020-12-19T00:19:14Z no-defun-allowed: That's not to say you can't make a good game with that, and a bad game with a Quake clone, but you don't have to do that much to stand out.
2020-12-19T00:19:53Z duuqnd: I thought I could do a wolfenstein clone to start off with as practice, but it was too much work with my garbage engine. I did make a rather half-decent level editor in McCLIM that I'm semi-proud of though, so it wasn't all bad.
2020-12-19T00:20:35Z duuqnd: I think that project taught me more about CLIM than game development
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2020-12-19T00:21:59Z aeth: duuqnd: Well, for me personally... after 7 years, I have this: https://i.imgur.com/vjaEJtl.png
2020-12-19T00:24:08Z aeth: Gamedev's time consuming
2020-12-19T00:24:37Z duuqnd: Well, if you're sharing a screenshot I guess it's only fair that I share one too. https://i.imgur.com/49JnHB8.png This is what my game looked like a few months before I stopped working on it.
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2020-12-19T00:26:24Z lotuseater: duuqnd: look at how much people are working on cyberpunk :) and it neither runs bugfree (yet)
2020-12-19T00:26:51Z aeth: duuqnd: that's pretty far along
2020-12-19T00:27:03Z aeth: duuqnd: looks like you're just missing lighting, and maybe collision
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2020-12-19T00:27:41Z duuqnd: Collision was easy since the map is grid based. Lighting was a little tricker, but I did get it working. I'm just a bad environmental artist.
2020-12-19T00:27:51Z duuqnd: I think I have some newer screenshots on my laptop
2020-12-19T00:28:13Z aeth: art's somebody else's role
2020-12-19T00:28:48Z duuqnd: Yeah, I was always planning to get someone else to do that. The main problem was always gameplay, though. There wasn't any. For some reason, I just never got around to adding any gameplay.
2020-12-19T00:29:12Z aeth: that's fine
2020-12-19T00:29:27Z duuqnd: Well, it wasn't a total failure since I learned a lot from it.
2020-12-19T00:30:06Z aeth: there's lots of passable free art out there that you can use for prototyping
2020-12-19T00:30:31Z aeth: (it just has the side effect of making your game look like a mobile game for some strange and totally coincidental reason...)
2020-12-19T00:31:20Z duuqnd: Yeah, art was never something I worried about. It was always that I got distracted by things.
2020-12-19T00:32:10Z duuqnd: https://imgur.com/1GePGT4 I got distracted by adding chromatic abberation to the HUD, for example.
2020-12-19T00:32:39Z duuqnd: (ignore the window name, it was a jokey working title for the game)
2020-12-19T00:32:47Z aeth: I can't say that I haven't seen that effect before in low-poly, low-res indie games... but it's definitely out of place.
2020-12-19T00:33:23Z lotuseater: duuqnd: maybe you can also learn something from that: https://github.com/gregcman/sucle
2020-12-19T00:33:30Z aeth: you should just focus on the minimum mechanics needed to get a "game". Not a real game, just moving around in a maze like the Windows screensaver
2020-12-19T00:33:47Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_Maze
2020-12-19T00:33:56Z aeth: you should pick textures as a homage to that, too
2020-12-19T00:34:11Z duuqnd: Yeah, the main point is that I always got distracted by small things like this and never got anything done as a result.
2020-12-19T00:34:24Z duuqnd: The game never got any gameplay, because small things kept distracting me
2020-12-19T00:36:16Z duuqnd: I did make a real game before I worked on this one though. It was sort of a crappy 3D remake of Spacewar.
2020-12-19T00:36:31Z aeth: Surprisingly, 3D Maze came out after Wolfenstein 3D, which was like 3D Maze, but with actual gameplay.
2020-12-19T00:36:35Z aeth: After Doom, too.
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2020-12-19T00:37:50Z aeth: duuqnd: Heh. Did you know that Spacewar! and Lisp are linked? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Russell_(computer_scientist)
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2020-12-19T00:39:50Z duuqnd: That's pretty interesting. I knew that MIT was involved in both, but I didn't know about Steve Russell.
2020-12-19T00:40:52Z aeth: He's still alive and he probably has an active email somewhere, so maybe he'd be interested in a Spacewar clone in Common Lisp if it's good.
2020-12-19T00:41:33Z duuqnd: Well, I certainly won't show him my hastily hacked together one.
2020-12-19T00:42:04Z aeth: The only difference between something that's hastily hacked together and something that's good is time.
2020-12-19T00:42:32Z aeth: There are no bad games, only games released too soon.
2020-12-19T00:42:58Z duuqnd: True, but I didn't have a lot of time for this project since it was for the Lisp game jam and I spent too much time on an idea I couldn't implement.
2020-12-19T00:43:09Z duuqnd: So the result became something functioning but janky
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2020-12-19T00:44:25Z duuqnd: I also spent a lot of time on implementing multiplayer only to realize that it was too impractical for anyone to bother with.
2020-12-19T00:45:21Z thmprover: You could have two AI play against each other.
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2020-12-19T00:48:05Z duuqnd: Well, the AI was complete garbage, so it wouldn't be very interesting. In fact, the only thing that made the game even slightly fun was that the position of everything was modulo'd to be kept inside the play area, making it kind of like a bullet hell game if you shot enough. It's hard to explain.
2020-12-19T00:49:23Z duuqnd: Here's a screenshot of what I think is a slightly early version https://i.imgur.com/FqtB7sk.png (I don't know what the spiky thing is) Basically, using a modulo and rendering multiple copies, it looked like there was an infinite amount of space, but things were always kept inside a small square.
2020-12-19T00:49:44Z duuqnd: I used wireframe because I suck at arm
2020-12-19T00:51:07Z duuqnd: art*
2020-12-19T00:52:48Z aeth: that looks much better than your other art
2020-12-19T00:53:08Z aeth: if you can go with a minimalist style that looks good, that's good
2020-12-19T00:53:08Z duuqnd: Yes. My other "art" was blue bricks.
2020-12-19T00:53:26Z aeth: The best example of minimalism in game art: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Hexagon#/media/File:Super_Hexagon_-_PC_Hexagon.png
2020-12-19T00:53:47Z duuqnd: I think minimalist is the only style I can do at all, so that's what I'll stick to in the future.
2020-12-19T00:53:49Z aeth: If you look at a video of it, the game rotates around and stuff. It looks cool. It's probably almost entirely programmatic
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2020-12-19T00:58:13Z duuqnd: My internet connection decided to die for a second there.
2020-12-19T00:58:38Z lotuseater: welcome back :)
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2020-12-19T01:07:37Z thmprover: Can I have nested packages?
2020-12-19T01:08:22Z thmprover: I'm trying to store some simple physics data, and I thought I could do something like "data:sun:mass", though I guess "sun:mass" is just as good.
2020-12-19T01:13:24Z aeth: nested packages would be nice
2020-12-19T01:13:33Z aeth: but the ASDF semi-enforced convention is to use a /
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2020-12-19T01:13:43Z aeth: like data/sun:mass
2020-12-19T01:14:16Z aeth: the only disadvantage is that you can't use it with FORMAT since it doesn't look like there's a way to escape a / and FORMAT assigns a special meaning to ~/ to call a function. But nobody uses that feature.
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2020-12-19T01:15:27Z aeth: there are at least two ways to then reexport exports from data/sun also from data (but that's a bad name for a top-level package)
2020-12-19T01:15:37Z aeth: one's in UIOP, the other is... defpackageplus or something like that.
2020-12-19T01:15:40Z moon-child:  #d
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2020-12-19T01:19:40Z nij: Has anyone tried abo abo's lispy, and recommend it? https://github.com/abo-abo/lispy
2020-12-19T01:19:51Z nij: it seems full fledged and powerful..
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2020-12-19T01:36:20Z no-defun-allowed: I don't have a teletype to edit LISP on :(
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2020-12-19T01:46:27Z Nilby: aeth: I use that feature.
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2020-12-19T01:50:16Z lotuseater: Nilby: could you give an example for ~/ plz? :)
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2020-12-19T01:55:33Z Nilby: I have a print-string which for strings which contain fonts and colors effects.
2020-12-19T01:56:40Z Nilby: And an output stream that can handle them. So something like:(format *terminal* "~&~23/fancy:print-string/" (ß '(:bg-blue (:fg-cyan "---Fizzy--"))))
2020-12-19T01:58:34Z Nilby: And then you have a thing like: (defun print-string (stream obj colon-p at-sign-p &rest args) which does the work.
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2020-12-19T02:02:40Z Nilby: But I'm not sure it's worth the effort actually.
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2020-12-19T02:07:01Z lotuseater: ehm yes but thx anyway
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2020-12-19T02:12:20Z Nilby: abuse of cl:format was a sport, perhaps like a foxhunt
2020-12-19T02:13:56Z aeth: I go the other direction and mostly avoid FORMAT
2020-12-19T02:14:57Z Nilby: That's quite sensible really.
2020-12-19T02:15:05Z aeth: Depends on whatever's clearest, though. I'll use ~A or ~D or whatever rather than using the print function equivalents.
2020-12-19T02:15:13Z aeth: Just as a one line thing, though.
2020-12-19T02:15:53Z aeth: And if it's multiple lines, then I'll prefer something like (format stream "~D ~D ~D~%" ...) (format stream "~D ~D~%" ...)
2020-12-19T02:16:25Z aeth: Only very tangentially related, but it looks like PPRINT is one of the few things that returns (values) rather than something like NIL, and that's weird. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
2020-12-19T02:16:37Z aeth: I guess that's just a sign that many authors were involved in the standard.
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2020-12-19T02:22:37Z Nilby: Hmmm. That's very curious, but I think there's a historical practical reason. I think pprint was a later addtion.
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2020-12-19T02:30:46Z Nilby: There's this paper on pprint which puts me to sleep, http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/6503/AIM-1102.pdf but explains other uses for ~//
2020-12-19T02:32:15Z lotuseater: i wouldn't know enough or am too lazy to live without FORMAT anymore
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2020-12-19T02:41:46Z aeth: I use FORMAT, but trying to do everything inside of one FORMAT is just going to make things less readable
2020-12-19T02:42:07Z aeth: besides, it's fun to say TERPRI sometimes
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2020-12-19T02:44:40Z Nilby: Yes. But, it's speaking words like terpri and cdadr that get us lispers weird looks.
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2020-12-19T02:52:00Z Oladon: Ooh, I've not heard terpri pronounced... is it TUR-pree, like turpentine and preliminary?
2020-12-19T02:52:24Z Oladon: I do like cdadr.
2020-12-19T02:52:44Z lotuseater: cadadadadr :D
2020-12-19T02:52:54Z Oladon: It's our Shibboleth :P
2020-12-19T02:53:01Z Oladon: "Here, pronounce this"
2020-12-19T02:53:15Z lotuseater: could also be a magical spell (which it actually is ^^)
2020-12-19T02:53:28Z Oladon: hehe
2020-12-19T02:53:30Z edgar-rft: it's short for "terminate printing" so I think it sounds like the concatenation of the first syllables of both words
2020-12-19T02:53:47Z Oladon: But you can't end words in short vowels like that in English...
2020-12-19T02:53:56Z Oladon: Then again, I guess it's not really English.
2020-12-19T02:54:09Z edgar-rft: be a grammar rebel!
2020-12-19T02:54:23Z Nilby: Just leaving this here https://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/lost-u-directive/
2020-12-19T02:54:26Z Oladon: lotuseater: I find it amusing that you decided to put the stress in the same place I did.
2020-12-19T02:54:26Z lotuseater: and "~5%" transforms into five TERPRIs?
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2020-12-19T02:54:50Z lotuseater: Oladon: how do you mean exactly? :)
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2020-12-19T02:55:16Z Oladon: If it sounds like a magical incantation, then that tells me you're pronouncing it cadadaDAdr
2020-12-19T02:55:21Z edgar-rft: five terpri points for lotuseater :-)
2020-12-19T02:55:34Z lotuseater: abra cadadar
2020-12-19T02:55:52Z Oladon: Which is also how I chose to pronounce it.
2020-12-19T02:56:00Z no-defun-allowed: I use the-cost-of-nothing:write-si-unit which is a longer form of ~U.
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2020-12-19T02:56:26Z lotuseater: i learned pronounciation of it from SICP
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2020-12-19T02:56:37Z Oladon: Since we're sharing fun things, here's a quote I _really_ enjoyed from phoe's book: "The function invoke-debugger [...] is the equivalent of a turtle falling on its back and wiggling its limbs hopelessly in the air; the program has exhausted all chances of handling an error gracefully and, therefore, has no choice but to handle it disgracefully."
2020-12-19T02:56:57Z phantomics: Hey, I just learned something really weird
2020-12-19T02:57:15Z Oladon: phantomics: How to pronounce cadadadadr?
2020-12-19T02:57:20Z phantomics: SBCL has problems concurrently assigning elements of arrays when the element size is below 7 bits
2020-12-19T02:57:31Z phantomics: Check this out: https://dpaste.com/DU9JE9VAA
2020-12-19T02:57:39Z lotuseater: phantomics: what did you learn?
2020-12-19T02:57:45Z lotuseater: uiii
2020-12-19T02:58:04Z phantomics: With lparallel active and an lparallel kernel set up, try evaluating the first expression several times, then the second
2020-12-19T02:58:18Z phantomics: The arrays produced by the second expression will occasionally contain 0s
2020-12-19T02:58:29Z no-defun-allowed: I can see that.
2020-12-19T02:58:29Z phantomics: Those being elements that didn't get set
2020-12-19T02:58:36Z aeth: Interesting about ~5%
2020-12-19T02:58:41Z aeth: I've probably seen it before but forgotten about it
2020-12-19T02:58:54Z aeth: I've only ever needed to do ~% or ~%~% and I think ~%~% is clearer than ~2%
2020-12-19T02:59:09Z phantomics: It's been daunting my efforts to parallelize April
2020-12-19T02:59:46Z phantomics: I guess it's because it takes more instructions to set those small words or something?
2020-12-19T03:00:40Z phantomics: Try the assignment with a character array, or a signed byte array or a float or t-type array and it works fine
2020-12-19T03:01:01Z lotuseater: wtf i don't have zeros? but I'm sure too dumb again
2020-12-19T03:01:11Z lotuseater: which version of SBCL?
2020-12-19T03:01:14Z no-defun-allowed: (unsigned-byte 7) looks okay, I see it uses bytes: MOV [RDX+3], AL
2020-12-19T03:01:34Z Nilby: phantomics: That's an interesting bug. I can see how that's tricky to generate good code for.
2020-12-19T03:01:45Z no-defun-allowed: (unsigned-byte 4) perhaps modifies nibbles?
2020-12-19T03:01:49Z Oladon: Nilby: heh
2020-12-19T03:02:18Z no-defun-allowed: If I may, maybe it wouldn't be so bad to only specialize above (unsigned-byte 8).
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2020-12-19T03:02:36Z phantomics: sbcl 2.0.2
2020-12-19T03:02:51Z phantomics: That's what I'm thinking, have 8 be the min
2020-12-19T03:02:55Z lotuseater: aeth: you're right, if not too many lines are terminated that way
2020-12-19T03:02:59Z no-defun-allowed: Or forgo concurrent/parallel writing of anything smaller than bytes, if you really want the space savings.
2020-12-19T03:03:24Z phantomics: I need the ability to cast to different types for some purposes, like when writing .png files I need arrays of 8-byte ints
2020-12-19T03:03:38Z lotuseater: i have 2.0.8 (not the newest i know)
2020-12-19T03:04:17Z lotuseater: phantomics: how many workers do you have in your lparallel kernel?
2020-12-19T03:04:20Z phantomics: It seems to work find in CCL though
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2020-12-19T03:04:32Z no-defun-allowed: Does Clozure produce dense arrays?
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2020-12-19T03:05:01Z phantomics: lotuseater: I've tried with different numbers and had similar results, usually I'm using 23 workers for my 24 threads - 1 on my main machine
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2020-12-19T03:05:13Z lotuseater: ah okay
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2020-12-19T03:05:27Z phantomics: Reducing the number of threads or the size of the array seems to reduce the missed elements
2020-12-19T03:05:33Z phantomics: But they show up if you iterate enough
2020-12-19T03:06:16Z lotuseater: i could push more workers and see how it does then
2020-12-19T03:06:52Z aeth: phantomics: 24? so 3900X?
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2020-12-19T03:07:06Z phantomics: Yeah
2020-12-19T03:07:14Z aeth: everyone needs a 3900X
2020-12-19T03:07:20Z aeth: then everything will be threaded...
2020-12-19T03:07:33Z no-defun-allowed: CNR here, but I can believe it.
2020-12-19T03:07:53Z Nilby: If I was writing C or assmebly for that, I would copy wordsize words until the last parts. Lisp is supposed to be better, but...
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2020-12-19T03:08:49Z phantomics: Problem with wordsize words is that in some situations I'm catenating, rotating or reshaping arrays
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2020-12-19T03:09:38Z phantomics: The threading gives me an immense speed boost for these ops, 10-15x the single-threaded
2020-12-19T03:09:45Z lotuseater: aeth: my think pad wouldn't like the AMD Ryzen :D
2020-12-19T03:10:05Z phantomics: Next I want to try it on a Threadripper
2020-12-19T03:11:56Z Nilby: one could do things with displaced arrays and row-major-aref, but it would be of course be nicer if the compiler could generate fast, correct code.
2020-12-19T03:12:12Z phantomics: I already do all array ops with row-major-aref
2020-12-19T03:12:21Z phantomics: You have to for good speed
2020-12-19T03:12:31Z lotuseater: Nilby: what would you use instead?
2020-12-19T03:13:11Z phantomics: My old method was to use a function that recursively descended through dimensions and then passed the coordinates of each element as a list plus the content of the element to a function and did transformations on the coordinates
2020-12-19T03:13:43Z Nilby: derp, I just re-read and noticed the row-major-aref
2020-12-19T03:13:44Z phantomics: It was really elegant code to read, but slow and hard to parallelize
2020-12-19T03:15:08Z aeth: lotuseater: there's a Threadripper laptop. get that.
2020-12-19T03:15:18Z phantomics: Seriously?
2020-12-19T03:16:05Z aeth: still the only source so it might be a hoax... https://www.pcgamer.com/this-portable-threadripper-pc-gives-new-meaning-to-the-term-desktop-replacement/
2020-12-19T03:16:07Z Nilby: A common technique is round up the image rowsize to the machine wordsize, so copying works out.
2020-12-19T03:16:36Z aeth: well, that article cites the original... https://www.tomshardware.com/news/take-this-portable-threadripper-3990x-workstation-wherever-you-go
2020-12-19T03:17:10Z lotuseater: aeth: I'M very sure it's out of my current money scope and will be long :D
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2020-12-19T03:17:53Z aeth: I mean it'd probably just be cheaper and a better experience to get a full threadripper PC and a high-end laptop with any battery life at all.
2020-12-19T03:17:56Z phantomics: That's a small form-factor pc, not a laptop
2020-12-19T03:18:53Z no-defun-allowed: I wouldn't mind a small desktop attached to a screen, keyboard and trackpad. Trouble is powering the thing - someone told me they wouldn't mind carrying a SLA battery in a backpack, but that seems unlikely for most people.
2020-12-19T03:19:45Z lotuseater: yes when then I'll buy a good stand PC with an actual GPU
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2020-12-19T03:21:02Z phantomics: What's the application? What are you going to do with the thing you couldn't do with a regular laptop SSHed to a more powerful machine? Some kind of graphics work in the field where you can't take a bigger computer?
2020-12-19T03:21:32Z no-defun-allowed: In my case, audio processing.
2020-12-19T03:22:07Z no-defun-allowed: This laptop goes considerably slower while charging, and I find I need to charge it while doing that.
2020-12-19T03:22:30Z phantomics: You have one?
2020-12-19T03:22:53Z no-defun-allowed: Not the forementioned TR "laptop", but a laptop.
2020-12-19T03:22:58Z phantomics: RIght
2020-12-19T03:23:26Z phantomics: Ever used Lisp for that? I've done a bit of work with cl-portaudio
2020-12-19T03:23:37Z no-defun-allowed: I expect you would have to take a portable reactor with that "laptop".
2020-12-19T03:24:13Z no-defun-allowed: I wrote a synthesizer with Harmony and cl-alsa (for MIDI input), but it had pretty bad latency with Pulseaudio, and I can't seem to configure ALSA.
2020-12-19T03:24:21Z lotuseater: no-defun-allowed: nuclear fission or fusion?
2020-12-19T03:24:28Z phantomics: Tried with Jack?
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2020-12-19T03:24:59Z no-defun-allowed: That is another option, yes.
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2020-12-19T03:29:22Z phantomics: Say, maybe you know something about this
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2020-12-19T03:30:08Z phantomics: I was using cl-portaudio to implement a spectrum analyzer, I would grab frames of audio and then do an FFT to get the spectrum values
2020-12-19T03:30:29Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, I haven't touched any audio library directly.
2020-12-19T03:30:37Z phantomics: However, I would always see a spike at the high end of the chart
2020-12-19T03:30:52Z phantomics: I see
2020-12-19T03:31:06Z phantomics: When I did this with the python portaudio, the high-frequency spike didn't happen
2020-12-19T03:31:41Z no-defun-allowed: Hm.
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2020-12-19T03:33:47Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not entirely sure, but I read that if you have N samples, everything over N/2 is bogus.
2020-12-19T03:34:01Z no-defun-allowed: ...over the N/2th bin in your FFT output.
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2020-12-19T03:35:01Z Nilby: maybe lisp math is too accurate
2020-12-19T03:35:11Z no-defun-allowed: So, for a 44.1kHz input, you can't detect any frequencies over 22.05kHz.
2020-12-19T03:35:50Z no-defun-allowed: I think that is in line with the Nyquist-Shannon theorem.
2020-12-19T03:36:29Z lotuseater: no-defun-allowed: damn i was at typing you about just that :D
2020-12-19T03:36:48Z lotuseater: *at typing to ask
2020-12-19T03:37:15Z no-defun-allowed: I tried using FFT to clean up voice samples, and then blend them to make a text-to-speech system.
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2020-12-19T03:37:40Z no-defun-allowed: I can't say I succeeded, but it was very fun, and we got some interesting noises out of it.
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2020-12-19T03:52:00Z momozor: Is there a way so I can automatically use exported symbols from a library that clashes with existing CL symbols? It's quite tedious to tell SLIME to 'take-new' (using SBCL) every time my system got loaded with the imported library (it's CLIM with (:USE :CL :CLIM :CLIM-USER) by the way)
2020-12-19T03:52:58Z phantomics: Yeah, in my case I was only using the n/2 samples and still seeing that spike
2020-12-19T03:54:48Z no-defun-allowed: I think you either use CLIM-USER or CL, but then there's also CLIM-LISP?
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2020-12-19T03:56:16Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I think it should be (defpackage <name> (:use :clim-lisp :clim))
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2020-12-19T03:57:12Z momozor: no-defun-allowed: Oh! Now I understand why there are more than one from CLIM. I should've investigate that beforehand. Thanks for pointing that out.
2020-12-19T03:57:30Z no-defun-allowed: I would have to check the general case though.
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2020-12-19T03:58:57Z no-defun-allowed: Well, generally you avoid :USE where possible, because if someone changes a package you use, then weird things can happen.
2020-12-19T04:01:00Z momozor: I would prefer to use :IMPORT-FROM and invoking a symbol directly myself, but it's just for the sake of trying the library in the beginning since I'm still not familiar with it just yet.
2020-12-19T04:01:31Z momozor: but again, thanks!
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2020-12-19T04:18:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-19T04:39:15Z beach: moon-child: They must not have read the book "Modern Operating Systems" by Tanenbaum and Bos, in which they clearly explain that it is impossible to write an operating system in a language that uses garbage collection.
2020-12-19T04:39:53Z beach: The fact that there were already such operating systems in existence when they wrote the book does not seem to have bothered them.
2020-12-19T04:40:18Z no-defun-allowed: Is this in reference to the bare-metal Scheme implementation video?
2020-12-19T04:40:25Z beach: Yeah.
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2020-12-19T04:43:13Z beach: I just took the opportunity to lament the quality of software books; even those written by highly respected people in the field.
2020-12-19T04:44:08Z beach: Highly qualified experts in algorithms and data structures can't even get binary search right.
2020-12-19T04:45:04Z beach: So, to get back on topic, how can we expect books about programming and software development to treat Common Lisp the way it deserves?
2020-12-19T04:47:03Z beach: "One thing you need in an operating system is access to files" [from the video].
2020-12-19T04:47:30Z beach: So I guess Multics never existed either.
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2020-12-19T04:48:41Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know how well they would handle a larger memory space, if their runtime causes stop-the-world pauses that would drop keys at a reasonable typing speed (by the example of an interrupt you can't wait for).
2020-12-19T04:49:25Z beach: I haven't watched all of it yet.  Is that the GC they are using?
2020-12-19T04:49:31Z no-defun-allowed: ...while working with a memory space some magnitudes smaller?
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2020-12-19T04:50:09Z beach: froggey says, "just make the GC interruptable"
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2020-12-19T04:51:04Z lotuseater: how does one accomplish that?
2020-12-19T04:51:05Z moon-child: sounds like a limitation of gambit scheme
2020-12-19T04:51:13Z no-defun-allowed: That is another solution, yes.
2020-12-19T04:51:41Z moon-child: lotuseater: have a backup arena, run interrupt code from that
2020-12-19T04:51:52Z moon-child: so you just don't touch the main arena while the gc is running
2020-12-19T04:51:56Z lotuseater: hmm ok
2020-12-19T04:52:07Z beach: The project in the video is cute, but I don't think there is anything publishable in there, since most of the stuff has already been done multiple times.
2020-12-19T04:53:22Z no-defun-allowed: At 12:50, they say "you can't tell the user to stop sending key-presses", but you would hopefully have pauses shorter than the time between keypresses. If I planted my face in the keyboard and rolled it around, I might be able to drop some keys, but it's an odd example.
2020-12-19T04:53:59Z beach: I see.
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2020-12-19T04:56:27Z no-defun-allowed: As a rough estimate, someone typing at 150wpm, which is well above average, with about 4 letters per word, would type 10 letters a second, so you could only hold interrupts for 100ms (assuming the time between presses is even).
2020-12-19T04:57:16Z beach: Sounds right.
2020-12-19T04:58:00Z beach: I designed the SICL nursery collector so that it would take only a few milliseconds which is what is required for applications like sound processing.
2020-12-19T04:58:03Z lotuseater: how does the linux kernel handle this? i have no idea
2020-12-19T04:58:06Z no-defun-allowed: Or, provided you can't leave some spare memory for interrupt handlers, would it be hard to have the interrupt handler not cons? It could just vector-push a character into a buffer, which would be very unlikely to overflow, even with a small buffer.
2020-12-19T04:58:43Z moon-child: lotuseater: the linux kernel doesn't have a gc
2020-12-19T04:58:50Z beach: You beat me to it.
2020-12-19T04:59:05Z moon-child: and yes, most kernels have a fixed-size ring buffer they push events to
2020-12-19T04:59:26Z no-defun-allowed: I recall something about how Linux handles it from a video where someone connected a 5Gbps network card to a Raspberry Pi. Hold on...
2020-12-19T04:59:29Z lotuseater: moon-child: i know that. but i meant the many words typing
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2020-12-19T05:02:04Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/geerlingguy/raspberry-pi-pcie-devices/issues/3#issuecomment-719781909 showed me that Linux has a ksoftirqd kernel task, which handles interrupts can queue.
2020-12-19T05:02:12Z no-defun-allowed: ...handles interrupts the kernel can queue for later.
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2020-12-19T05:06:52Z beach: Why on earth did they not redesign the memory manager?
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2020-12-19T05:08:28Z moon-child: eh, making memory managers is hard
2020-12-19T05:08:44Z beach: If it's not hard, it's not worth doing.
2020-12-19T05:08:58Z moon-child: sure, but you always have to pick something to prioritize
2020-12-19T05:09:07Z beach: I guess so.
2020-12-19T05:09:20Z no-defun-allowed: They mention one Lisp operating system, which has an even worse memory manager (well, I guess it usually reduces pause times, but that's the only thing going for it).
2020-12-19T05:10:05Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Towards the end?
2020-12-19T05:10:12Z beach: I haven't heard anything yet.
2020-12-19T05:10:20Z no-defun-allowed: Towards the start of the paper.
2020-12-19T05:11:23Z beach: OK.
2020-12-19T05:12:17Z no-defun-allowed: That can be retrieved from https://icfp20.sigplan.org/details/scheme-2020-papers/3/Running-Scheme-On-Bare-Metal-Experience-Report- (yes, there is a trailing hyphen). I usually read the paper, because I'm a faster reader as my hearing is a bit wonky.
2020-12-19T05:12:39Z beach: Thanks.
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2020-12-19T05:15:00Z beach: They mention Mezzano, and something called ChrysaLisp.
2020-12-19T05:15:13Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, at the end of the paper, they suggest writing the interrupt handling code in a restricted (presumably non-consing) Scheme, and to use the x86 compiler in Gambit to eliminate C code from the system.
2020-12-19T05:15:50Z beach: They mention the first idea in the video as well.
2020-12-19T05:16:47Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, the latter is not a Common Lisp implementation, and I fear I'll break out in hives if I read any more of the implementation code.
2020-12-19T05:17:14Z beach: Marc Feely, by the way, is the one who pissed all over my work on fast generic function dispatch.
2020-12-19T05:17:46Z no-defun-allowed: Oh dear.
2020-12-19T05:21:51Z no-defun-allowed: To be honest, (the part of) today (when I've been watching the channel) #lisp has been ragging on a few people today. I think you aren't in the wrong to bring Feely's record up, but again I'm far too good at putting out a stream of things I don't like, so I'll end it by mentioning that a Lisp implementor after the 80s has decided to use reference counting, stating "I'm not keen on GC".
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2020-12-19T05:22:17Z no-defun-allowed: "Go out with a bang" and all.
2020-12-19T05:22:46Z ck_ .oO( Can't we all just get along ? )
2020-12-19T05:23:35Z no-defun-allowed: I have no intentions of getting along with people who are screwing up my field, whatever that may be.
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2020-12-19T07:14:45Z zacts: can you run quicklisp on abcl?
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2020-12-19T07:16:59Z easye: zacts: certainly.  You can install it locally via (require :abcl-contrib)(require :quicklisp-abcl)
2020-12-19T07:17:19Z zacts: nice, thanks
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2020-12-19T07:18:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: What's the status of the december quicklisp dist?
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2020-12-19T12:53:56Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: so many last-minute bugs are messing it up
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2020-12-19T12:55:03Z Xach: The normal instructions for quicklisp are: 1. download https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp  2. (load "quicklisp.lisp")
2020-12-19T12:57:29Z Xach: My strategy for timing releases is breaking down a bit, and it will take some engineering to escape the trouble.
2020-12-19T12:58:01Z Xach: It's based on the theory that most of the time, most things build and work together fine.
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2020-12-19T13:00:33Z Xach: If I had an easy system to say "go back to the last version of X that built fine" i could make progress.
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2020-12-19T13:00:54Z Xach: (it would not be too hard to make that system, but it doesn't exist yet)
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2020-12-19T13:13:35Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-12-19/failure-report.html has today's failure report
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2020-12-19T13:19:04Z lotuseater: Xach: sounds like something how Nix and GUIX work, declarative reproducible builds
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2020-12-19T13:22:36Z Xach: A better system than the current would be great. I hate delaying releases so much.
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2020-12-19T13:24:40Z lotuseater: i can load in a nix-shell the lispPackages.quicklisp but didn't fit that to other stuff yet
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2020-12-19T13:26:09Z lotuseater: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/tree/master/pkgs/development/lisp-modules
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2020-12-19T13:30:20Z lotuseater: but maybe this is of more use: https://github.com/SquircleSpace/ql2nix
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2020-12-19T13:36:43Z Xach: Not to me, unfortunately.
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2020-12-19T16:05:49Z Xach: It feels good to add some quality planet lisp blogs!
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2020-12-19T16:06:22Z phoe: Xach: I am considering moving off Movim because it has that ugly code snippet bug unfixed for months/years
2020-12-19T16:06:39Z phoe: is there any kind of blogging software/platform that you would recommend?
2020-12-19T16:07:25Z Xach: phoe: not really, i use tumblr now but it doesn't work well either.
2020-12-19T16:07:40Z Xach: i think self-hosting with simple software would be best. i don't know if that exists.
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2020-12-19T16:08:07Z phoe: hmmmm
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2020-12-19T16:08:22Z phoe: a blog at github pages is always an option
2020-12-19T16:08:42Z phoe: or at another gitlabesque instance, maybe at clnet even
2020-12-19T16:08:44Z phoe thinks
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2020-12-19T17:21:51Z charles`: Has anyone managed to use usocket for websockets?
2020-12-19T17:22:37Z phoe: websockets have little in common with traditional unix sockets
2020-12-19T17:22:45Z phoe: they're a higher level construct
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2020-12-19T17:23:48Z charles`: I'm looking for a portable websocket library, I've tried websocket-driver and clws.
2020-12-19T17:31:35Z phoe: I'm not aware of any other ones
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2020-12-19T17:39:22Z charles`: Is there something fundamental that is preventing a websocket library from being portable, or should I attempt to create my own?
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2020-12-19T17:51:32Z nij: Hi, I am following a tutorial to compile lisp scripts.. using UIOP. I got an error however: https://bpa.st/6DGQ
2020-12-19T17:52:00Z nij: (In case it would be helpful, the tutorial is here: https://ebzzry.io/en/script-lisp/ I'm compiling "general.lisp".)
2020-12-19T17:55:29Z nij: I'm not familiar with UIOP unfortunately, so don't know how to fix. The main complaint seems to be "Can't inherit "TIMESTAMP<" from "LOCAL-TIME", it is inherited from "UIOP/UTILITY"".
2020-12-19T17:55:36Z phoe: package name conflict.
2020-12-19T17:55:41Z phoe: what is your DEFPACKAGE?
2020-12-19T17:56:02Z phoe: you cannot use both LOCAL-TIME and UIOP inside it because they have conflicting symbols.
2020-12-19T17:56:11Z phoe: s/package name/symbol name/
2020-12-19T17:56:31Z nij: What is my DEFPACKAGE?
2020-12-19T17:56:38Z phoe: yes
2020-12-19T17:56:46Z phoe: which script are you trying to compile?
2020-12-19T17:56:53Z phoe: could you link it?
2020-12-19T17:57:20Z nij: It's generali.lisp in https://ebzzry.io/en/script-lisp/
2020-12-19T17:57:30Z nij: s/generali/general/
2020-12-19T17:57:37Z phoe: oh
2020-12-19T17:57:40Z phoe: it's broken then
2020-12-19T17:57:48Z nij: Jeez :(
2020-12-19T17:57:50Z phoe: mail the author with the backtrace.
2020-12-19T17:58:10Z nij: Dependencies are outdated?
2020-12-19T17:58:45Z phoe: honestly, I don't know
2020-12-19T17:59:05Z phoe: there's a symbol conflict because both UIOP and LOCAL-TIME export a symbol named TIMESTAMP<
2020-12-19T17:59:13Z phoe: so right now there's an obvious conflict
2020-12-19T17:59:27Z dra: Hi phoe!
2020-12-19T17:59:31Z phoe: you could try to work around this by removing most of the USEd packages and adapting the code as appropriate
2020-12-19T17:59:45Z phoe: or try to use package-local nicknames instead of USE, because PLNs are resistant to this sorta thing.
2020-12-19T17:59:48Z phoe: dra: hey hi
2020-12-19T17:59:57Z nij: phoe: OK! Thanks :D
2020-12-19T18:00:06Z dra: phoe: May I query you?
2020-12-19T18:00:10Z phoe: dra: sure
2020-12-19T18:00:16Z phoe: nij: that's the main trouble with USE
2020-12-19T18:00:37Z phoe: you can describe it with a meme
2020-12-19T18:00:43Z nij: xD
2020-12-19T18:00:54Z phoe: #<PACKAGE MY-PACKAGE>: uses two other packages
2020-12-19T18:01:01Z nij: The author has a github repo with his cl scripts. I can look into that and see how to fix.
2020-12-19T18:01:04Z phoe: #<PACKAGE DEPENDENCY-1>: exports a symbol named FOO
2020-12-19T18:01:13Z phoe: The next version of #<PACKAGE DEPENDENCY-2>: https://i.imgflip.com/2ves3p.jpg
2020-12-19T18:01:28Z nij: Ha! The funniest part?
2020-12-19T18:01:32Z nij: Is that I don't understand yet.
2020-12-19T18:01:34Z nij: :(
2020-12-19T18:01:46Z nij: I'll keep this joke in mind.. hopefully.
2020-12-19T18:01:50Z phoe: nij: okay, so
2020-12-19T18:02:02Z phoe: you have a package named MY-PACKAGE that uses two packages, DEPENDENCY-1 and DEPENDENCY-2
2020-12-19T18:02:10Z phoe: DEPENDENCY-1 exports a symbol named FOO
2020-12-19T18:02:29Z nij: (following!)
2020-12-19T18:02:45Z phoe: DEPENDENCY-2 doesn't export such a symbol, so all is good
2020-12-19T18:02:57Z nij: Oh oh!
2020-12-19T18:02:58Z charles`: couldn't you also do shadowing import
2020-12-19T18:03:00Z phoe: but then the maintainers of package DEPENDENCY-2 submit a new version of the package, with an additional exported symbol named FOO
2020-12-19T18:03:03Z nij: I get it now.
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2020-12-19T18:03:13Z phoe: charles`: you could, but then you need to be aware of which symbols to shadowing-import
2020-12-19T18:03:31Z phoe: you can't predict it ahead of time in the general case
2020-12-19T18:03:39Z phoe: but to finish the tale
2020-12-19T18:03:43Z nij: Yeah. Thanks for your patience.!
2020-12-19T18:03:46Z nij: I get it now.
2020-12-19T18:03:50Z phoe: you update your quicklisp dist, try to load your code
2020-12-19T18:04:01Z phoe: and then DEFPACKAGE MY-PACKAGE explodes even though you have not done a single thing to break it
2020-12-19T18:04:08Z phoe: ...other than deciding to use :USE
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2020-12-19T18:04:30Z phoe: which is something that may or may not explode, depending on how the stars configure themselves
2020-12-19T18:05:50Z nij: The author's repo uses :USE.
2020-12-19T18:05:56Z nij: I should probably avoid that then.
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2020-12-19T18:10:32Z phoe: now that PLNs are widespread, it's generally considered better style to use them rather than USE
2020-12-19T18:10:40Z phoe: precisely for the reasons I have mentioned earlier
2020-12-19T18:11:03Z nij: package-local nicknames?
2020-12-19T18:11:08Z phoe: yes
2020-12-19T18:11:17Z nij: so you mean... local-time:foo?
2020-12-19T18:11:41Z phoe: more like (defpackage my-package ... (:local-nicknames (#:t #:local-time))) and then t:foo
2020-12-19T18:11:43Z nij: oh isee   (:local-nicknames (#:a #:alexandria.dev.0))) ;; (2)
2020-12-19T18:11:44Z nij:  
2020-12-19T18:11:53Z phoe: oh! I see you found my post
2020-12-19T18:11:59Z nij: :D
2020-12-19T18:12:07Z phoe: I need to edit it someday..
2020-12-19T18:12:12Z nij: Oh it's yours! Wonderful algorithm.
2020-12-19T18:12:21Z phoe: algorithm?
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2020-12-19T18:13:34Z nij: Google. Nvm!
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2020-12-19T18:27:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Xach: cool, are package download statistics still available?
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2020-12-19T18:36:52Z nij: phoe: After your explanation, I fixed it myself. Thank you :D
2020-12-19T18:37:02Z phoe: nij: <3
2020-12-19T18:37:11Z phoe: please mail the author with your fixes, maybe they can make use of them
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2020-12-19T18:43:42Z charles`: https://github.com/wisesimpson/cl-websocket might be a good starting place
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2020-12-19T19:23:18Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: i have not kept them up to date, sorry.
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2020-12-19T19:23:30Z Xach: i have the infrastructure but have not pushed the "update stats and publish" button in a long time.
2020-12-19T19:23:35Z Xach: (it's more than just one button)
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2020-12-19T19:25:22Z phoe: Xach: how can we help?
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2020-12-19T19:28:31Z Xach: phoe: The main pain point is going from an SQL table to a Blogger post. I run a report, cut and paste, reformat, and paste into blogger. It's not terrible to do once, but to do monthly it's an annoying chore.
2020-12-19T19:28:52Z Xach: phoe: I wouldn't mind publishing the raw data as CSV regularly so someone else could do the work.
2020-12-19T19:29:34Z Xach: it's also not so impossible to automate, but i haven't investigated
2020-12-19T19:29:47Z phoe: Xach: please do! Once I have a stable parametrized URL with CSV data auto-published from you, I can even write a Lisp system that auto-formats this stuff and push it to Quicklisp.
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2020-12-19T19:30:01Z phoe: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-stats) or something.
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2020-12-19T19:30:35Z Xach: strewth
2020-12-19T19:30:45Z Xach: ok, i'll look into it
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2020-12-19T19:30:58Z phoe: okay, (ql:quickload :strewth)
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2020-12-19T19:37:18Z Xach: oh lord, i have probably 50k web log files to import.
2020-12-19T19:37:38Z Xach: the journey of fifty thousand log files begins with a single entry
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2020-12-19T19:39:16Z phoe: welp
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2020-12-19T19:55:15Z Xach: ok, in 15 minutes, it processed 1 week out of about 40. phoe, please remind me to look at it again tomorrow.
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2020-12-19T19:56:22Z nij: #'shell-command sends a string to shell.
2020-12-19T19:56:33Z nij: However, some command wants to interact with me..
2020-12-19T19:56:40Z nij: is there any work around in emacs?
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2020-12-19T20:02:25Z nij: OH no it's the wrong place. I got logged into #lisp automatically again. Sorry..
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2020-12-19T20:03:26Z nij: s/.*//
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2020-12-19T20:19:45Z phoe: Xach: you are not doing this manually though, are you
2020-12-19T20:19:51Z phoe: I shall remind you tomorrow
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2020-12-19T21:04:49Z Xach: phoe: it's a program that fetches all pending logfiles from cloudfront
2020-12-19T21:07:03Z Xach: it has just processed march 23rd. (it started on january 20)
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2020-12-19T21:08:48Z phoe: I see
2020-12-19T21:09:02Z phoe: it does seem slow though
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2020-12-19T21:18:00Z Xach: I ususally run it a few times per day and it only processes a little at a time. Catching up on 11 months wasn't a design priority.
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2020-12-19T21:19:41Z phoe: ooooh
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2020-12-19T21:49:28Z _death: "There is one currently known bug in the who-calls database code.  It arises when a function calls itself, either directly or indirectly, through a chain of other functions [...]"
2020-12-19T21:49:33Z _death: oh, screamer..
2020-12-19T21:50:30Z _death: I think it's more severe actually
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2020-12-20T02:26:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, if there is a URL with the CSV, I'd be interested in knowing it
2020-12-20T02:26:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: (or some other format for the data)
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2020-12-20T04:01:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-12-20T04:01:56Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning beach!
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2020-12-20T12:32:40Z Xach: argh, all my indexes are gone
2020-12-20T12:38:35Z beach: What happened?
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2020-12-20T12:46:02Z phoe: what indexes?
2020-12-20T12:48:08Z Xach: after i made the initial quicklisp log database, i added some indexes to make the stats run in a reasonable time.
2020-12-20T12:48:29Z Xach: but of course i did that on the fly and did not add them to a migration or update the initial schema.
2020-12-20T12:48:42Z Xach: it adds a few more tasks to making the stats visible
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2020-12-20T12:53:00Z phoe: ooooh.
2020-12-20T12:53:02Z phoe: ouch.
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2020-12-20T12:56:48Z Xach creates a materialized view
2020-12-20T13:01:40Z Xach: ok, progress!
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2020-12-20T13:45:51Z Xach: phoe: what do you think of https://www.quicklisp.org/stats/2020/2020-01.csv?
2020-12-20T13:49:36Z phoe: oooh, already pre-sorted
2020-12-20T13:49:44Z phoe: wonderful! I can use this
2020-12-20T13:50:00Z phantomics: Interesting, I was looking for April download stats and I saw that in both March and April it got the same number of downloads, 73
2020-12-20T13:50:20Z phantomics: Is that accurate? Could the number be somehow carrying over?
2020-12-20T13:51:07Z Xach: how did you find march and april stats? i did not share the secret link!!
2020-12-20T13:51:50Z Xach: phantomics: there may be errors - this is the first effort. i am using a mix of shell and sql and stuff and something may have failed to query properly.
2020-12-20T13:53:44Z Xach: I would caution against inferring too much from this data. many are caused by bots, builds, etc. it's not a true measure of popularity or utility or whatever
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2020-12-20T13:56:27Z phantomics: https://www.quicklisp.org/stats/2020/2020-03.csv and 04 for March/April
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2020-12-20T14:03:34Z Xach: that is some good hacking
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2020-12-20T14:05:25Z Xach: phoe: ok, the final step will be to add cron jobs to save the stats, and cron jobs to report them. i think i will update the current month file every day.
2020-12-20T14:05:53Z phoe: Xach: OK. I'll sit down and write a very simple system for parsing that data soon™.
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2020-12-20T14:08:29Z phantomics: Leet URL hacking
2020-12-20T14:08:58Z Xach: i should be moving pallets instead of this stuff!
2020-12-20T14:09:02Z Xach goes to move some pallets
2020-12-20T14:09:04Z phoe: Xach: how official would you like that system to be?
2020-12-20T14:09:24Z Xach: very un
2020-12-20T14:09:29Z phoe: OK
2020-12-20T14:09:38Z phoe will go for github.com/phoe/quicklisp-stats
2020-12-20T14:10:01Z Xach: any report from these stats should include some form of caveat like the one i gave above
2020-12-20T14:10:23Z phoe: OK
2020-12-20T14:11:11Z phantomics: phoe: You're writing a tool to fetch the stats for packages?
2020-12-20T14:12:06Z Xach: phoe: if you make something interesting i would be happy to add it to planet lisp
2020-12-20T14:21:06Z phoe: phantomics: yes, and to access them from inside Lisp
2020-12-20T14:22:55Z phantomics: very cool
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2020-12-20T14:38:08Z phoe: Xach: will you have a file that lists all month/year combinations for which data is available?
2020-12-20T14:38:23Z phoe: or do I need to hit-and-miss until I get a HTTP 404?
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2020-12-20T14:52:08Z Xach: phoe: i am starting in january 2020 and proceeding from there.
2020-12-20T14:52:15Z phoe: Xach: OK
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2020-12-20T15:21:17Z Nilby: drakma:http-request "https://www.quicklisp.org/stats/2020/2020-02.csv" :decode-content t | read-table -g -s pipe | view-table
2020-12-20T15:23:04Z phoe: yes
2020-12-20T15:24:08Z Nilby: or even: drakma:http-request "https://www.quicklisp.org/stats/2020/2020-01.csv" :decode-content t | read-table -g -s pipe | (ofind "chunga" *input* :key (_ (oitem 2 _)) :test #'equal) | second
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2020-12-20T15:27:10Z Nilby: or M-s C-s chunga in view-table
2020-12-20T15:27:12Z phoe: Xach: first very quick hack at https://github.com/phoe/quicklisp-stats
2020-12-20T15:27:41Z phoe: functions MONTH and ALL download/cache the result and return it
2020-12-20T15:28:09Z phoe: while SYSTEM-DOWNLOADS is the real meat of the system because it can tell you how many people downloaded alexandria a given month
2020-12-20T15:28:39Z phoe: no pretty printing, some docstrings, no autotests, PRs welcome
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2020-12-20T15:59:19Z Nilby: Now my second command can defintiely be shorter: (cdr (assoc "chunga" (quicklisp-stats:month 2020 01) :test #'equal))
2020-12-20T16:01:09Z phoe: Nilby: even shorter
2020-12-20T16:01:25Z phoe: (system-downloads :chunga 2020 01)
2020-12-20T16:01:32Z phoe: errrr (quicklisp-stats:system-downloads :chunga 2020 01)
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2020-12-20T16:01:53Z Nilby: derp
2020-12-20T16:02:06Z Nilby: how did i miss that
2020-12-20T16:02:39Z phoe: I'll make it more prominent in the readme
2020-12-20T16:03:55Z Nilby: You made it quite clear. I didn't read
2020-12-20T16:04:35Z phoe: well I made it even clearer now, so it should work better even for people who don't read
2020-12-20T16:04:45Z Nilby: but my first command has to be longer, but I'm probably doing something else dumb
2020-12-20T16:06:33Z Xach: hmm
2020-12-20T16:06:37Z Xach: i should probably increase the cutoff
2020-12-20T16:06:54Z phoe: cutoff, what do you mean? more than 500?
2020-12-20T16:07:00Z Xach: yeah
2020-12-20T16:07:06Z Xach: i'll change it to 1000 and see what noise ensues
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2020-12-20T16:08:25Z Xach: ok, updated
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2020-12-20T16:08:56Z Nilby: The long tail
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2020-12-20T16:09:11Z nij: (ql:quickload "clon") returns error, but clon seems to be a fairly standard package. Anything wrong with it?!
2020-12-20T16:09:22Z nij: (I haven't had it installed in my laptop, I believe.)
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2020-12-20T16:11:37Z phoe: hmmm
2020-12-20T16:11:41Z phoe: is clon even in quicklisp?
2020-12-20T16:11:55Z phoe: nope, it's not.
2020-12-20T16:12:38Z nij: Oh jeez. I'm following another repo: https://github.com/ebzzry/scripts and it asked me to do that.
2020-12-20T16:14:39Z phoe: file another issue then
2020-12-20T16:15:27Z phoe: or clone clon into your quicklisp/local-projects
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2020-12-20T16:20:46Z nij: I see. Thank you :)
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2020-12-20T16:26:30Z heisig: Clon is in Quicklisp, but it is called 'net.didierverna.clon'.
2020-12-20T16:26:40Z Xach shudders
2020-12-20T16:26:55Z Xach: there is (was?) more than one clon
2020-12-20T16:27:23Z Xach: one was a cron, but for cl (get it?) and another was the command-line options nuker, and i think there may have been one other.
2020-12-20T16:27:43Z heisig: I mean having such very long package/project names is not so bad now that we have package local nicknames in Common Lisp.
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2020-12-20T16:28:36Z heisig is eternally grateful to phoe for making package local nicknames work everywhere
2020-12-20T16:28:37Z Xach: even if it does not hurt my package system, it hurts my eyes very much
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2020-12-20T16:31:39Z aeth: If your package name is extremely long, then a global nickname (that's still not going to conflict) can still be useful. e.g. for the package name displayed in the REPL after doing (in-package ...)
2020-12-20T16:37:09Z mfiano: The REPL already displays the segment after the last "." in a dot-separated package name.
2020-12-20T16:38:29Z phoe: heisig: oh! thanks
2020-12-20T16:38:48Z phoe: heisig: the gratitude isn't for me, I only patched CCL with them
2020-12-20T16:38:58Z phoe: everyone else is why they work everywhere else
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2020-12-20T16:55:43Z aeth: mfiano: interesting fact.
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2020-12-20T17:36:27Z phantomics: Hey aeth, can you try evaling something in your SBCL? I recall you weren't able to reproduce the error I was having with parallel assignment to small-element arrays
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2020-12-20T17:41:56Z aeth: hmm, I don't think I tried to do that before
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2020-12-20T17:47:13Z phantomics: Ok, if you didn't then never mind, I thought you said you had no bugs when doing parallelized assignments to a 4-bit array
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2020-12-20T17:48:09Z phantomics: It seems that may not be a bug but something unavoidable due to the nature of arrays
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2020-12-20T17:49:35Z aeth: my guess is that someone else said something around the same time that I was speaking, or I replied to someone else without mentioning them so my line was misinterpreted.
2020-12-20T17:50:12Z aeth: (or something similar)
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2020-12-20T17:51:17Z aeth: I can say that I don't have "signed-byte 4" (which would include "unsigned-byte 4") in my SLIME history, though.
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2020-12-20T17:56:43Z phantomics: Ok cool
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2020-12-20T18:18:33Z phoe: Xach: https://nl.movim.eu/?blog/phoe%40movim.eu/6307e977-1855-4167-b2ca-24973d77e733 is available for Planet Lisp'ing
2020-12-20T18:20:09Z phoe: this Movim bug with whitespace won't get fixed - is it possible to make some cheap workaround in your planet lisp crawler that's aimed especially at movim code blocks? or should I just move my blog elsewhere?
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2020-12-20T18:32:36Z Oberon: So I'm on chapter 1 of Practical Common Lisp, and it says to use C-c C-c to run slime-compile-defun, but when I do C-c C-c I get the message, "C-c C-c is undefined."
2020-12-20T18:32:59Z Oberon: Is this a matter of the "status" of the window I'm in, like it's not tied to Slime?
2020-12-20T18:33:14Z phoe: Oberon: what mode is your buffer in?
2020-12-20T18:33:19Z Oberon: I do have the slime-repl buffer in another window and it's working as expected.  Maybe "frame" is a better word than window.
2020-12-20T18:33:24Z phoe: it should be in lisp-mode
2020-12-20T18:33:42Z phoe: try C-c C-c after performing M-x lisp-mode <RET>
2020-12-20T18:33:49Z Oberon: ok thanks
2020-12-20T18:33:58Z Oberon: sorry I was googling "emacs find buffer mode" :D
2020-12-20T18:34:17Z phoe: it should be on the bottom line of your window
2020-12-20T18:34:26Z phoe: like, it should be printed there
2020-12-20T18:34:28Z Oberon: ahh taht worked
2020-12-20T18:35:13Z Oberon: well now it says -UUU:---F1 chapterone.cl All L2     (Lisp adoc [COMMON-LISP-USER sbcl]) -
2020-12-20T18:35:22Z Oberon: I didn't see what it said before.
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2020-12-20T18:36:22Z Oberon: Thank you!
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2020-12-20T18:38:52Z amirouche: is there an ordered key-value store written in CL ?
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2020-12-20T18:41:41Z amirouche: with on disk persistance
2020-12-20T18:43:00Z lotuseater: phantomics: that was me
2020-12-20T18:45:11Z phantomics: Ok, could you try running this: (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 4))
2020-12-20T18:47:12Z lotuseater: oh cool never used that before
2020-12-20T18:48:49Z phantomics: In CCL you get '(unsigned-byte 8), which explains why the parallel assignment code works there
2020-12-20T18:49:56Z lotuseater: now strange things happen, in your expression i get an error :D
2020-12-20T18:49:56Z phantomics: Making a 4-bit element array just gets an 8-bit array
2020-12-20T18:49:56Z lotuseater: ok I'll try in shell with CCL
2020-12-20T18:49:56Z phantomics: Really? In SBCL? What error?
2020-12-20T18:50:24Z phoe: (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 4)) is not supposed to error
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2020-12-20T18:51:33Z lotuseater: phoe: didn't mean that
2020-12-20T18:51:40Z phoe: oooh
2020-12-20T18:51:44Z phoe: okay then, I am curious!
2020-12-20T18:52:38Z lotuseater: i meant phantomics expression from yesterday
2020-12-20T18:53:11Z lotuseater: ah ok sry, SLIME wasn't in package lparallel anymore
2020-12-20T18:53:18Z phantomics: Oh, the array assignment expression? Did you have lparallel running? It's needed
2020-12-20T18:53:27Z lotuseater: i know
2020-12-20T18:54:09Z lotuseater: it's still the same REPL instance as yesterday, but it jumped itself back to CL-USER namespace
2020-12-20T18:54:45Z lotuseater: both your expressions still work fine
2020-12-20T18:56:05Z phantomics: Ok, the second one doesn't produce zeroes in the output?
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2020-12-20T18:57:53Z lotuseater: no
2020-12-20T18:58:32Z lotuseater: but my worker-count in *kernel* is just 4
2020-12-20T18:59:06Z phantomics: I see, what do you get when running  (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 4))
2020-12-20T18:59:49Z lotuseater: it prints "(UNSIGNED-BYTE 4)"
2020-12-20T18:59:55Z lotuseater: on CLL just "T"
2020-12-20T19:00:31Z phantomics: Ok, looks like your SBCL does use 4-bit elements, thanks
2020-12-20T19:00:57Z phantomics: Interesting, I guess with only 4 threads the assignment collisions just don't occur
2020-12-20T19:01:35Z phantomics: Also, my CCL gives (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) for that command, looks like yours is compiled differently so trying for 4-bit elements just gives you a T array
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2020-12-20T19:01:50Z phoe: wait a second...
2020-12-20T19:02:04Z phoe: which CCL build are you using? on which platform?
2020-12-20T19:02:17Z phantomics: That does seem like unusual behavior
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2020-12-20T19:06:46Z phoe: AFAIK CCL has specialized representations for ub8 on *all* platforms
2020-12-20T19:09:34Z phantomics: I would think that ub4 would be upgraded to ub8, but lotuseater do you get ub8 when you enter (upgraded-array-element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))?
2020-12-20T19:11:34Z phoe: it upgrades ub4 to ub8 on CCL 1.12 Linux amd64
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2020-12-20T19:15:50Z phantomics: Same here, I have the same version in Linux amd64
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2020-12-20T19:18:02Z lotuseater: phantomics: on SBCL ub8
2020-12-20T19:18:46Z phantomics: Interesting, your SBCL is upgrading the array
2020-12-20T19:18:55Z phantomics: What version do you have? What OS?
2020-12-20T19:19:12Z lotuseater: NixOS and 2.0.8
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2020-12-20T19:30:48Z phantomics: Interesting, I have 2.0.2
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2020-12-20T20:25:17Z phoe: amirouche: I hmmmm
2020-12-20T20:25:20Z phoe: maybe manardb?
2020-12-20T20:25:37Z phoe: https://sirherrbatka.github.io/blog/2020/12/18/manardb/
2020-12-20T20:25:44Z amirouche: thanks it did not show up in google fu
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2020-12-21T02:07:13Z Xach: ok, the quicklisp stats files are set to update automatically
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2020-12-21T02:21:09Z phantomics: Can see them at those urls?
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2020-12-21T02:24:10Z Xach: yes
2020-12-21T02:24:17Z Xach: the current month will be updated daily
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2020-12-21T04:08:12Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-21T04:13:20Z charles`: Is it possible to typecast an object to be a child object? basically add slots of child class and change type.
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2020-12-21T04:13:37Z beach: Sure
2020-12-21T04:13:41Z beach: clhs change-class
2020-12-21T04:13:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chg_cl.htm
2020-12-21T04:13:51Z beach: But it's not called "type cast".
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2020-12-21T04:15:17Z charles`: Thanks so much. I knew I probably wasn't called that. I just didn't know the right terminology
2020-12-21T04:15:31Z beach: Pleasure.  Good luck.
2020-12-21T04:17:21Z beach: And it doesn't have to be a child class, they can be completely independent classes as far as the subclass relationship is concerned.
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2020-12-21T04:21:38Z charles`: It does if I want it to inherit methods though right?
2020-12-21T04:22:29Z beach: Sure.  For the original methods to be applicable, it would have to be a child class.
2020-12-21T04:23:48Z no-defun-allowed: Although it likely won't make sense, you could create a class with both the old and new classes as superclasses, and CHANGE-CLASS to that class.
2020-12-21T04:24:22Z no-defun-allowed: There is a library called dynamic-mixins which does that for you; as the name suggests, it makes the most sense for mixin classes.
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2020-12-21T04:25:27Z beach: Never heard of that library.  What does it do again?
2020-12-21T04:27:29Z no-defun-allowed: It basically does what I described charles could do, "adding" mixins to an instance by creating a superclass of the old class and the mixin class, and calling CHANGE-CLASS.
2020-12-21T04:27:47Z beach: I see.
2020-12-21T04:29:33Z no-defun-allowed: I modeled my connection protocol off Gray streams, so there is one binary-connection class, and another character-connection class. Now I have a connection class which forwards messages to another connection - are its instances binary-connections or character-connections? It depends on the class of the connection I forward to; and I use dynamic-mixins to update the class of the forwarding connection.
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2020-12-21T05:01:29Z lotuseater: charles`: you can have a look on and try this, it thought me much https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle%E2%80%93ellipse_problem#Change_the_programming_language
2020-12-21T05:04:00Z lotuseater: it also tought me for defining SETF methods in its lambda list first the new value then the object (and not the other way around as i tought)
2020-12-21T05:04:32Z lotuseater: hm in my first message of course also the past form of "teach" and not "think"
2020-12-21T05:05:11Z beach: Sounds Indian.
2020-12-21T05:05:29Z lotuseater: why indian? o_O
2020-12-21T05:05:51Z beach: They often can't pronounce "th" and pronounce "t" instead.
2020-12-21T05:06:04Z beach does not understand the nature of accents. 
2020-12-21T05:06:24Z lotuseater: oh noez it's "taught". too early here for me :D
2020-12-21T05:08:19Z no-defun-allowed: If I read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Hindi_and_Urdu correctly (please correct me if I missed something), then there isn't a "th" sound that one would have to learn?
2020-12-21T05:08:33Z lotuseater: now as i look on the macroexpand in SBCL for (defstruct person name age) there one can also see first new value then object. but it doesn't use DEFMETHOD but SB-C:XDEFUN
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2020-12-21T05:09:26Z lotuseater: but no beach, i never have been to India, wish i could one day or same parts of asia in general
2020-12-21T05:09:37Z no-defun-allowed: We would be looking for a /θ/ sound.
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2020-12-21T05:13:24Z beach: lotuseater: I have never been either, but I hear people from India talk on TV fairly often.
2020-12-21T05:13:39Z beach: And I still don't understand accents.
2020-12-21T05:13:55Z lotuseater: you mean phonetically?
2020-12-21T05:14:43Z beach: I don't understand why people can't pronounce things they way they hear others pronounce those things.
2020-12-21T05:14:58Z beach: the way
2020-12-21T05:15:47Z lotuseater: haha right, same here (but in another context)
2020-12-21T05:15:51Z beach: And it's not just about not being able to make the sound.
2020-12-21T05:16:13Z oni-on-ion: i think the reason is that some brains work in terms of words/spelling/letters, rather than audio or visual. i heard that these same type of people have no "inner monologue/dialogue"
2020-12-21T05:16:38Z oni-on-ion: back in the day we termed it left brain, right brain
2020-12-21T05:16:45Z beach: Many Germans pronounce English `v' as an English `w', like "enwironment", even though there is a perfectly good `v' in German (spelled `w').
2020-12-21T05:17:09Z beach: I just don't get it.
2020-12-21T05:17:10Z oni-on-ion: same with some east indian, tamil i think. "dodge wiper"
2020-12-21T05:17:42Z oni-on-ion: ancient hebrew the letter 'v' was pronounced as our 'w' and 'u', letters have moved around a bit since
2020-12-21T05:17:56Z oni-on-ion: (where then, the lighter 'b' was used as 'v')
2020-12-21T05:18:25Z oni-on-ion: now i wonder, how come Volkswagen has both W and V
2020-12-21T05:18:50Z beach: Sure, but I still don't understand why, when you stand in front of a native speaker of German, you say "enVironment", then that person can go straight ahead and pronounce it "enWironment" a second later.
2020-12-21T05:19:17Z beach: oni-on-ion: They are pronounced differently.
2020-12-21T05:19:38Z Nilby: Habits of the mouth. Wiring lower than cognition.
2020-12-21T05:19:55Z lotuseater: some german words are the same in english, even in spelling, but don't ask me why. Schnitzel, Kindergarten and so on
2020-12-21T05:21:04Z oni-on-ion: yep as Nilby said. it is related to the reasons why a non-native speaker will pronounce it naturally with an accent, strong or weak. however... they can "act" with british or american accent just fine. it is just about habit vs. intentional effort
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2020-12-21T05:24:40Z lotuseater: hearing stuff like talks or films in English helps also a lot. but a native speaker would recognize the difference when hearing me speaking
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2020-12-21T06:06:12Z flip214: lotuseater: Zeitgeist is popular, too ;)
2020-12-21T06:08:58Z lotuseater: hehe
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2020-12-21T10:01:24Z beach: Happy solstice everyone!
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2020-12-21T10:01:42Z beach: (10:01 UTC)
2020-12-21T10:03:10Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, I'm bored with the sun, you can have it back now.
2020-12-21T10:03:41Z beach: THANK YOU, THANK YOU!
2020-12-21T10:03:48Z no-defun-allowed: But it's kinda big, so it'll come back in six months probably.
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2020-12-21T10:04:02Z imode: Happy soltice!
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2020-12-21T10:05:40Z Lycurgus: somebody, maybe neil degrasse, pointed out that the idea that the days get shorter in wintor and longer summer must be false
2020-12-21T10:06:00Z Lycurgus: since winter starts today and the days will only get longer
2020-12-21T10:06:43Z beach: Lycurgus: That's so biased towards the northern hemisphere.
2020-12-21T10:06:56Z imode: days get shorter towards winter and longer towards summer. inverse for the southern hemisphere.
2020-12-21T10:07:00Z Lycurgus: same deal for summer
2020-12-21T10:07:02Z beach: Plus, that's debatable.  I consider winter solstice to be the middle of the winter.  Not the beginning.
2020-12-21T10:07:45Z Lycurgus: well it's definitely not the middle here, maybe 20% in at most
2020-12-21T10:07:45Z flip214: imode: the southern hemisphere _also_ gets longer days towards _their_ summer....
2020-12-21T10:08:17Z imode: my family parses it as "as soon as the solstice comes, day length starts growing slowly until it hits peak in summer, then swings back towards its trough"
2020-12-21T10:08:26Z Lycurgus: (rougly 43 north)
2020-12-21T10:08:37Z Lycurgus: *roughly
2020-12-21T10:08:41Z beach: As usual, in #lisp, everything has to be debated to death.
2020-12-21T10:08:53Z phoe: beach: disagreed, not everything
2020-12-21T10:09:15Z phoe: and I'm unwilling to change my position, prove me otherwise
2020-12-21T10:09:18Z flip214: agreed, not everything
2020-12-21T10:09:19Z beach: I don't think you should disagree.
2020-12-21T10:09:36Z Lycurgus: everbody is pretty much in lock/goose step on the parens alignment deal
2020-12-21T10:09:47Z imode: I can find someone to die on this hill.
2020-12-21T10:09:49Z phoe: not everything has to be debated to the death, and I'll gladly debate that to the death
2020-12-21T10:09:57Z beach: :)
2020-12-21T10:09:59Z phoe cough cough
2020-12-21T10:10:01Z phoe: I mean ummmmm
2020-12-21T10:10:03Z flip214: well, if "contradiction isn't an argument", would "consent" be one?
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2020-12-21T11:22:49Z jmercouris: I disagree with our stance on parens
2020-12-21T11:22:58Z jmercouris: wait, was our stance on parens again?
2020-12-21T11:24:00Z phoe: they are too round for 2021, therefore we officially replace them with brackets in CLtL5
2020-12-21T11:24:04Z flip214: jmercouris: the more the better, but only the round ones
2020-12-21T11:24:08Z phoe: [defun foo [bar] [* bar bar]]
2020-12-21T11:24:27Z flip214: phoe: well, then go unicode as well
2020-12-21T11:24:34Z no-defun-allowed: <defun foo <bar> <* bar bar>>
2020-12-21T11:24:38Z flip214: «identity t»
2020-12-21T11:24:42Z phoe: yes
2020-12-21T11:24:45Z no-defun-allowed: Because [] looked too round.
2020-12-21T11:25:05Z jmercouris: lol
2020-12-21T11:25:28Z phoe: ≤+ 2 2≥ for weak calls maybe? can return 4 or 3 or 5
2020-12-21T11:25:35Z jmercouris: I’m going to use carets from now on
2020-12-21T11:25:59Z jmercouris: << 3 5> ; t
2020-12-21T11:26:06Z imode: I wouldn't mind [] as brackets tbh.
2020-12-21T11:26:12Z phoe: anyway
2020-12-21T11:26:17Z imode: I use them in my language.
2020-12-21T11:26:22Z imode: less keypresses.
2020-12-21T11:26:28Z phoe hides before beach returns with his debating comment
2020-12-21T11:26:35Z no-defun-allowed: ^+ x xv ; you can't use v in names, also it looks like Smalltalk
2020-12-21T11:26:36Z phoe: imode: actually I have [] and () swapped on my keyboard
2020-12-21T11:26:41Z imode: oh nice.
2020-12-21T11:26:43Z no-defun-allowed: Same here.
2020-12-21T11:26:44Z imode: good idea.
2020-12-21T11:26:49Z jmercouris: same, there’s a way to do it in emacs
2020-12-21T11:26:52Z phoe: imode: in shell, setxkbmap -option parens:swap_brackets
2020-12-21T11:27:02Z phoe: I do it globally in my X session
2020-12-21T11:27:03Z imode: yeah but that'll screw with other stuff. :x
2020-12-21T11:27:05Z jmercouris: pjb had a snippet you can find it in my config
2020-12-21T11:27:05Z no-defun-allowed: I know someone who swapped - and / but it's a bit much.
2020-12-21T11:27:19Z jmercouris: don’t swap globally, only in emacs
2020-12-21T11:27:38Z phoe: I actually do swap globally, I like having parens without pressing shift
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2020-12-21T11:31:48Z flip214: phoe: no shift for parens, but then using emacs? nice dichotomy ;)
2020-12-21T11:32:01Z phoe: flip214: what do you mean
2020-12-21T11:32:29Z phoe: I use leader mode for most emacs commands, less shifting for me :D
2020-12-21T11:32:42Z flip214 mutters I've got an editor for you that uses modes instead of special keys...
2020-12-21T11:32:45Z flip214: ah, okay
2020-12-21T11:33:41Z no-defun-allowed: I don't jump between commands and text as frequently as I type parens.
2020-12-21T11:35:41Z phoe: somewhat unrelated, but I really enjoy spacemacs with its modal approach to everything
2020-12-21T11:36:01Z phoe: I don't press control or meta or shift as much as I used to!
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2020-12-21T11:49:41Z jmercouris: why can’t I have a method with a different number of arguments as a method of the same name?
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2020-12-21T11:51:35Z jackdaniel: you can given you use &rest arguments or &key &allow-other-keys
2020-12-21T11:51:59Z jackdaniel: but to answer the "why": because methods are parts of the same generic functions
2020-12-21T11:52:16Z jackdaniel: you don't expect a single function to have different signatures, do you?
2020-12-21T11:53:04Z jackdaniel: in other words, methods are *not* functions, they are chunks of a fancy function dubbed "generic"
2020-12-21T11:55:13Z jmercouris: aha
2020-12-21T11:55:28Z jmercouris: so the generic function is responsible for dispatch to the methods?
2020-12-21T11:55:42Z jmercouris: we are always invoking the generic function whose job it is to act like a router?
2020-12-21T11:56:31Z mfiano: You can use specialization-store if you want multiple arity and to be able to specialize on &rest/&key/&optional arguments
2020-12-21T11:56:57Z jackdaniel: more or less, yes
2020-12-21T11:57:28Z jackdaniel: (by "or less" I mean, that it is possible, that there is a mechanism "outside" of the generic function that does the dispatch
2020-12-21T11:57:31Z jackdaniel: )
2020-12-21T11:57:51Z jmercouris: I see
2020-12-21T11:58:08Z jmercouris: mfiano: I’ll look into specialization store, thanks
2020-12-21T11:58:09Z jackdaniel: but conceptually generic function is a bag with methods and depending on arguments methods are invoked /in some order/ (or not invoked)
2020-12-21T11:58:23Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: i finally understand, thanks
2020-12-21T11:58:34Z jackdaniel: sure
2020-12-21T12:00:03Z mfiano: (or to also dispatch on _types_)
2020-12-21T12:00:28Z jackdaniel: (satisfies (random-elt t nil))
2020-12-21T12:00:55Z mfiano: specialization-store requires cltl2 environment support though, so may not work the same everywhere.
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2020-12-21T12:02:13Z mfiano: I use it for the constructors in my linear algebra library, for example to be able to construct 4x4 matrices from 16 scalars, 4 column vectors, a single scalar for identity, etc
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2020-12-21T12:13:31Z ldbeth: good evening
2020-12-21T12:16:45Z aeth: Alternatively, the actual generic function in DEFGENERIC can have many, mandatory arguments, but it can be wrapped in another DEFUN, which you actually call, that has the &optional, &key, or &rest that you want
2020-12-21T12:17:27Z aeth: &rest is problematic, but &optional and &key absolutely could've had a class in DEFGENERIC and it's a flaw that they can't have one. I guess the committee couldn't agree on a syntax.
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2020-12-21T12:18:13Z mfiano: Luckily we have things like filtered-functions to write our own dispatchers
2020-12-21T12:18:52Z aeth: The correct syntax, by the way, would be (variable default-value class supplied-p)
2020-12-21T12:19:04Z aeth: Since you'll probably need a default-value anyway.
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2020-12-21T12:26:34Z aeth: Oh, and you probably always want the &allow-other-keys that jackdaniel brought up for these sorts of APIs because you wouldn't want there to be a breaking change if you added a key.
2020-12-21T12:27:07Z aeth: (assuming the key is actually optional, which most, but not all, tend to be)
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2020-12-21T14:33:51Z jurov: anyone knows about package-local nicknames pls? I have no idea why this errors in sbcl 2.0.1:
2020-12-21T14:33:54Z jurov: defvar p2 (make-package "p2")) (sb-ext:add-package-local-nickname "pee" p2 p2) (let ((*package* p2)) (read-from-string "pee::p"))
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2020-12-21T14:35:12Z beach: It would seem add-package-local-nickname is a function, no?
2020-12-21T14:35:32Z beach: Did you check it's signature?
2020-12-21T14:37:13Z phoe: jurov: case
2020-12-21T14:37:23Z phoe: (read-from-string "|pee|::p") will succeed
2020-12-21T14:37:33Z beach: Ah, heh.
2020-12-21T14:37:38Z beach: Good catch.
2020-12-21T14:37:45Z phoe: your nickname is lowercase, upcase it if you want to type pee::p.
2020-12-21T14:37:52Z phoe: also oh god the pun
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2020-12-21T17:11:19Z jackdaniel: when we have two load-time-value's with the value (make-instance 'foo) (read-only-p defaults to nil), and we load the compiled file, should they be eq to each other?
2020-12-21T17:11:32Z jackdaniel: or, /can/ they be EQ to each other?
2020-12-21T17:11:47Z phoe: clhs load-time-value
2020-12-21T17:11:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_ld_tim.htm
2020-12-21T17:12:23Z jackdaniel: I think that they should be only when the read-only-p is T, but maybe I'm missing something
2020-12-21T17:12:36Z phoe: "If t, the result is a read-only quantity that can, if appropriate to the implementation, be copied into read-only space and/or coalesced with similar constant objects from other programs."
2020-12-21T17:12:49Z phoe: so if read-only-p is true, then it CAN be coalesced
2020-12-21T17:12:55Z jackdaniel: sure, that's clear
2020-12-21T17:13:00Z phoe: "If nil (the default), the result must be neither copied nor coalesced; it must be considered to be potentially modifiable data. "
2020-12-21T17:13:14Z phoe: so if read-only-p is false, then it MUST NOT be coalesced
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2020-12-21T17:13:49Z jackdaniel: that's my understanding, but I'm usually doubting myself when I see sbcl doing something different
2020-12-21T17:13:59Z jackdaniel: (than what I would anticipate)
2020-12-21T17:14:00Z phoe: what does SBCL do?
2020-12-21T17:14:09Z jackdaniel: coalasces them
2020-12-21T17:14:43Z phoe: could you give an example?
2020-12-21T17:15:13Z jackdaniel: hm, I'm confused, I've rerun my example and it worked as expected
2020-12-21T17:15:50Z phoe: a particularly shy bug
2020-12-21T17:15:53Z phoe: disappears upon closer look
2020-12-21T17:16:11Z jackdaniel: hm, nevermind me then, thanks
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2020-12-21T17:46:03Z matta: Puzzle from a noob -- please help me figure how the right way to do this: (deftype coordinate (simple-array fixnum (3)))
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2020-12-21T17:46:47Z matta: I want to be able to use 'coordinate in check-type, (declare (type (coordinate foo))), etc.
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2020-12-21T17:48:38Z phoe: matta: (deftype coordinate () '(simple-array fixnum (3)))
2020-12-21T17:48:53Z phoe: you forgot the type lambda list, and you need to quote the return value
2020-12-21T17:49:30Z matta: Ahhh, I had tried quoting but forgot the type lambda list.  Thanks!
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2020-12-21T17:50:04Z matta: Learning new languages teaches one to be humble.  ;-)
2020-12-21T17:52:50Z phoe: no problem! good luck, and feel free to ask any more questions you may have
2020-12-21T17:57:09Z aeth: matta: do you actually want coordinates to be fixnums?
2020-12-21T17:57:19Z aeth: That means you have no control over the size
2020-12-21T17:57:38Z aeth: you could do e.g. (signed-byte 32) and most implementations will probably support that size
2020-12-21T17:59:22Z aeth: Implementations have to support simple-character, character, and bit arrays. They almost certainly support (unsigned-byte 8) arrays. They also likely support single-float, double-float, and signed/unsigned bytes for 8, 16, and 32
2020-12-21T17:59:35Z aeth: So you have a fair bit of control over which kind of arrays you use
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2020-12-21T18:03:31Z phoe: fixnum is at minimum ub16
2020-12-21T18:04:07Z _death: signed-byte 16
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2020-12-21T18:08:39Z phoe: oops - sorry
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2020-12-21T19:02:05Z jurov: phoe: thanks!
2020-12-21T19:03:17Z matta: aeth: thanks for the tips re: signed-byte 32.
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2020-12-21T19:05:41Z matta: What is the easiest way to compare two arrays for structural equality (i.e. as EQUALS does for lists)?
2020-12-21T19:06:11Z phoe: EQUALS? you likely mean EQUAL
2020-12-21T19:06:15Z ebrasca: How do shadow work?
2020-12-21T19:06:21Z phoe: but, EQUALP compares arrays if you want EQUALP for comparison
2020-12-21T19:06:38Z ebrasca: How does shadow work?
2020-12-21T19:06:46Z phoe: for vectors, there's serapeum:vector=
2020-12-21T19:07:13Z phoe: ebrasca: there's an answer in http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf
2020-12-21T19:07:50Z phoe: basically, SHADOW creates a symbol with a given name and unimports any other symbol with the same name that might have been imported
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2020-12-21T19:19:23Z ebrasca: phoe: Thanks!
2020-12-21T19:21:08Z phoe: so when you shadow a symbol with name FOO, then first FIND-SYMBOL is called to find it
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2020-12-21T19:21:16Z phoe: if it does not exist, it is interned
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2020-12-21T19:21:33Z phoe: if it exists and it is imported from another package, it is uninterned and then a fresh one is interned
2020-12-21T19:21:49Z phoe: otherwise, it's a no-op
2020-12-21T19:22:12Z phoe: oh, and each package maintains a shadowing symbols list, that symbol is added there by #'SHADOW.
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2020-12-21T19:28:38Z aeth: put that in an article under the headline "shadow facts" as a reference to https://xkcd.com/1272/
2020-12-21T19:31:48Z varjag: slyrus: i implemented guo-hall thinning over opticl
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2020-12-21T19:32:06Z varjag: is it of interest for the project, or does it sound too application specific
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2020-12-21T22:03:08Z slyrus: varjag, what is quo-hall thinning? I'm assuming this is something like: https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/294-9/lectures/thin.html ?
2020-12-21T22:03:37Z slyrus: of course all of the images on Fateman's site are busted, which doesn't really help explain what's going on.
2020-12-21T22:06:13Z slyrus: sure, happy to add to opticl, thanks! Can you make a PR for it?
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2020-12-21T22:16:27Z Xach: hmm, the stats update seems to have worked
2020-12-21T22:16:55Z phoe: let me look!
2020-12-21T22:17:51Z phoe: yes, I can see phoe-toolbox with the majestic result of 8 downloads
2020-12-21T22:18:41Z Xach: so the stat-gaming begins
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2020-12-21T22:24:43Z phoe: (loop (drakma:http-request (ql::archive-url (ql::find-release "phoe-toolbox")))) intensifies
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2020-12-21T22:25:39Z phoe: Xach: updated the readme of quicklisp-stats to mention the new cutoff of 1000 projects.
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2020-12-21T22:31:21Z varjag: slyrus: yep, a kind of morphological thinning, among the better ones
2020-12-21T22:31:27Z varjag: i'll tidy up and make a pr
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2020-12-21T23:17:32Z jmercouris: anyone know of a GitHub API wrapper in CL?
2020-12-21T23:18:10Z jmercouris: trying to figure out a way to automate backing-up discussions from GitHub, I see that it is not yet on their API, but I imagine it will come sooner or later
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2020-12-22T04:02:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-22T05:41:06Z solideogloria[m]: o/
2020-12-22T05:41:45Z beach: Hello solideogloria[m].
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2020-12-22T06:58:00Z flip214: https://cliki.net/optima says "deprecated by trivia" and "optima is the recommended pattern-matching library"...
2020-12-22T06:58:30Z flip214: as it's still used, does someone know a maintainer? https://github.com/m2ym/optima/network shows a few available changes and a few PRs.
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2020-12-22T07:24:39Z zacts: ok, about to dive into practical common lisp some more
2020-12-22T07:25:13Z lotuseater: do you have questions?
2020-12-22T07:25:55Z zacts: not direct questions quite yet
2020-12-22T07:26:10Z zacts: I am wondering how much into OOP and Clos it gets into though
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2020-12-22T07:27:06Z no-defun-allowed: Quite a bit. If I recall, there are two chapters on, was it "object re-orientation"? The table of contents will tell you.
2020-12-22T07:27:14Z zacts: ok
2020-12-22T07:27:37Z zacts: more like, I'm wondering how much into the design of object oriented systems it gets into
2020-12-22T07:28:00Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, chapters 16 and 17, then there are quite a few examples using objects.
2020-12-22T07:28:08Z zacts: cool
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2020-12-22T07:34:01Z zacts: hum... one question I guess.
2020-12-22T07:34:22Z lotuseater: go on :)
2020-12-22T07:34:23Z zacts: I'm using vim with a vim-slime plugin to copy and paste lisp s-expr into an sbcl repl
2020-12-22T07:34:31Z zacts: I wonder how far I can get with this for the book
2020-12-22T07:34:41Z zacts: or will I need more features from emacs slime later on?
2020-12-22T07:35:13Z lotuseater: no not a must, but needful. but have no experience with vim-slime
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2020-12-22T07:35:48Z zacts: hum.. I'm sure this is asked too many times, but if I do get serious into lisp will I need emacs slime?
2020-12-22T07:36:18Z lotuseater: doing stuff in the REPL is fine but fast you are at the point for having s-exprs in files that you are changing constantly for experimenting
2020-12-22T07:37:08Z lotuseater: you can also have emacs with vim bindigs
2020-12-22T07:37:19Z zacts: I mean what functionality does emacs slime provide other than copying from a buffer into an sbcl repl? does it provide debugging or other features?
2020-12-22T07:37:22Z no-defun-allowed: SLIMV should suffice, from what I hear.
2020-12-22T07:37:48Z zacts: ok, I'll check out slimv
2020-12-22T07:38:02Z zacts: also, I don't mind trying out emacs evil mode if it works with slime
2020-12-22T07:38:04Z no-defun-allowed: SLIME also provides a fancy debugger and inspector, and can retrieve information about symbols (eg for use by autocomplete) by asking the image, as opposed to doing static analysis.
2020-12-22T07:38:21Z no-defun-allowed: I don't use Vim, but it sounds like SLIMV should work just as well.
2020-12-22T07:38:31Z zacts: ah I'll look into it, ok
2020-12-22T07:41:25Z lotuseater: and for not having too much but more about CLOS, ANSI CL has a chapter about it and one about structs. or common lisp recipes
2020-12-22T07:41:59Z zacts: oh cool
2020-12-22T07:42:03Z lotuseater: so i mean too much infos at once
2020-12-22T07:42:25Z zacts: ah I see
2020-12-22T07:42:41Z lotuseater: but the book from Keene "Object Oriented Programming in Common Lisp" is more a tutorial than dry manual :)
2020-12-22T07:42:59Z flip214: zacts: if you have any issues using slimv a few people here can (and will) provide support
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2020-12-22T07:43:08Z zacts: flip214: oh thanks
2020-12-22T07:47:18Z lotuseater: i think two essences of CLOS and MOP philosophy in which it differences are: nothing is hidden from each other, methods and classes are independent from each other (but with no classes there are no real distinct methods of course). how would you people say?
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2020-12-22T07:47:58Z zacts: how does CL OOP differ from say smalltalk?
2020-12-22T07:48:38Z no-defun-allowed: In Common Lisp, it would be fair to say that (generic) functions do things, as opposed to in Smalltalk where objects do things by being sent methods.
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2020-12-22T07:48:44Z lotuseater: from smalltalk i can't tell you, but this other stuff is afaik not so in "traditional" systems
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2020-12-22T07:49:25Z no-defun-allowed: CLOS also supports method combination and multiple inheritance, and CLOS programmers usually use packages instead of classes as encapsulation.
2020-12-22T07:49:28Z lotuseater: wasn't it in smalltalk real truth with "everything is an object"? :)
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2020-12-22T07:49:54Z zacts: no-defun-allowed: what advantages/disadvantages does this provide over smalltalk's paradigm?
2020-12-22T07:50:17Z no-defun-allowed: Both are totally alien (haha) to most programmers. I remember someone found out that in D, private modifiers allow access by the package and not the class, and that someone thought it was terrible.
2020-12-22T07:50:22Z lotuseater: zacts: and the metaobject protocol handles how methods/classes/instances are redefined, even at runtime
2020-12-22T07:50:41Z zacts: I began reading the beginning of a book on smalltalk a while ago, but didn't finish it.
2020-12-22T07:51:20Z lotuseater: yeah i think that will give you also better ideas for OOP than java/c++ books
2020-12-22T07:51:35Z no-defun-allowed: zacts: For the most part, you can do "more" things with CLOS - you don't need any visitor pattern to do multiple dispatch, and multiple inheritance lets you use "mixins" to modify behaviour. But, as there are no messages, you can't exactly do #doesNotUnderstood: and fiddle with messages.
2020-12-22T07:52:15Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think I've missed the latter, but it makes a fair few things work in class-oriented systems.
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2020-12-22T07:53:37Z zacts: this was the book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2015891.SmallTalk_Objects_and_Design
2020-12-22T07:54:43Z zacts: but I kind of want to just work on some real little project ideas for now.
2020-12-22T07:54:53Z lotuseater: okay good, so you can adapt ideas for designing to other stuff
2020-12-22T07:55:09Z zacts: the book was kind of theoretical from what I remember, and I wanted to get the basics of actually making something
2020-12-22T07:55:59Z zacts: then maybe later on read some of those kinds of books, but yeah.
2020-12-22T07:56:29Z zacts: I was actually led here from #ruby, and they recommended I check out practical common lisp, but now lisp looks really neat to me.
2020-12-22T07:56:31Z lotuseater: yes, practice improves theory and the other way around
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2020-12-22T07:57:22Z lotuseater: zacts: are you also aware up to now that CL is object oriented everywhere under the hood?
2020-12-22T07:57:38Z zacts: nope
2020-12-22T07:57:58Z lotuseater: ok so now. or you'll get an idea of that
2020-12-22T07:58:20Z lotuseater: much things do more in the background than one expects first
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2020-12-22T07:59:44Z lotuseater: but in my first half year of learning i didn't touch CLOS directly at all as i also had no other OOP experience (or confusion?)
2020-12-22T08:01:56Z zacts: I'm still a beginner
2020-12-22T08:02:23Z lotuseater: yeah so don't worry :)
2020-12-22T08:02:30Z zacts: cool
2020-12-22T08:02:58Z lotuseater: and with picking SBCL you made also a good choice
2020-12-22T08:03:21Z zacts: I chose SBCL for now, but ABCL looks neat for later on
2020-12-22T08:03:54Z lotuseater: if you want to look the doc for a specific standard symbol there is http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/index.htm
2020-12-22T08:04:10Z lotuseater: ah yes, for working on the JVM :)
2020-12-22T08:05:53Z zacts: yeah
2020-12-22T08:07:27Z zacts: how well does common lisp play with unix? like, let's say I want to script my unix system with lisp.
2020-12-22T08:07:27Z lotuseater: i realized yesterday that the lisp on erlang BEAM seems to be intended as a CL, but it states some things don't fit well, so you have no full CL implementation (as an analogy for what ABCL is)
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2020-12-22T08:07:59Z lotuseater: oh it does well
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2020-12-22T08:08:17Z phoe: zacts: it's possible - either you run a brand new Lisp image for each command, or you could run a Lisp as a daemon and send commands to it, e.g. via swank
2020-12-22T08:08:21Z zacts: because I have some project ideas that I might want to glue unixy things together with lisp
2020-12-22T08:08:45Z lotuseater: for scripts there is for example UIOP
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2020-12-22T08:09:44Z lotuseater: or look for cl-launch (available as a Linux package)
2020-12-22T08:09:54Z zacts: like, I don't mean so much like bash scripts, but more like does lisp have a `system` command?
2020-12-22T08:10:16Z zacts: to where it can communicate with a unix command? (I think C has something like this too)
2020-12-22T08:10:26Z phoe: yes
2020-12-22T08:10:32Z phoe: uiop:run-program and uiop:launch-program
2020-12-22T08:10:40Z phoe: for synchronous and asynchronous execution
2020-12-22T08:10:46Z zacts: ok, that's all that I think I'd need for some ideas of mine.
2020-12-22T08:10:56Z zacts: I'll check out UIOP
2020-12-22T08:11:33Z zacts: I want to glue several linux synth and midi apps together kind of, for one project idea of mine.
2020-12-22T08:12:35Z zacts: it actually kind of reminds me of the MP3 app in ch3 of practical common lisp.
2020-12-22T08:14:24Z zacts: format already seems to be pretty powerful, perhaps even more powerful than printf or print in many languages.
2020-12-22T08:14:38Z phoe: almost turing complete™
2020-12-22T08:14:47Z phoe: well, turing complete, if you include ~/ in the mix.
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2020-12-22T08:17:35Z lotuseater: zacts: oh yes when you have warmed up to
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2020-12-22T08:18:29Z lotuseater: zacts: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
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2020-12-22T08:18:39Z lotuseater: you can even have GOTO and such things
2020-12-22T08:18:46Z ldbeth: good afternoon
2020-12-22T08:18:58Z lotuseater: hello ldbeth
2020-12-22T08:19:01Z ldbeth: Goto? what Goto
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2020-12-22T08:19:16Z lotuseater: ldbeth: it was about the power of FORMAT
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2020-12-22T08:21:21Z ldbeth: ah, i see
2020-12-22T08:22:05Z zacts: looks like lisp would work for many of my daily programming tasks
2020-12-22T08:22:09Z lotuseater: in comparing it with normal printf
2020-12-22T08:22:41Z moon-child: tbf, printf *is* turing complete
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2020-12-22T08:23:17Z lotuseater: moon-child: that's cool too. but i didn't do much with it (or C in general) to know about
2020-12-22T08:24:57Z moon-child: in fairness, the turing-complete bits are a hack based on an insecure and unsafe feature that should really be gotten rid of.  For practical use, format is more powerful
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2020-12-22T08:25:39Z zacts: much of my project ideas involves text or connecting stuff together, kind of pandocish maybe.
2020-12-22T08:26:26Z zacts: and maybe some markdown and html generation
2020-12-22T08:26:48Z ldbeth: zacts: generate documents on-the-fly?
2020-12-22T08:27:00Z zacts: ldbeth: yes
2020-12-22T08:27:17Z zacts: kind of like org-mode too maybe.
2020-12-22T08:29:07Z zacts: I also want to glue apps together and script that gluing so to speak. like with my linux synth and midi idea.
2020-12-22T08:29:55Z zacts: so some of it might involve communicating with unix/linux command line apps just a bit, and lisp would wrap around that into a full app. but not like bash scripting so much, I need/want something more powerful than that.
2020-12-22T08:31:26Z ldbeth: sounds like it should be a PID 1
2020-12-22T08:31:38Z ldbeth: ;-)
2020-12-22T08:31:43Z zacts: but I might be thinking too far ahead of myself for now. I want to learn lisp and read practical common lisp first
2020-12-22T08:31:46Z zacts: :-)
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2020-12-22T08:39:53Z flip214: ldbeth: "unshare --pid"
2020-12-22T08:40:10Z flip214: you can have as many PIDs 1 as you like (within reason and memory)
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2020-12-22T08:46:07Z beach: lotuseater: What does it mean that Common Lisp is object-oriented everywhere under the hood?
2020-12-22T08:46:56Z beach: I mean, if you take Alan Kay's definition of "object oriented", then it is certainly not so.
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2020-12-22T08:50:02Z ldbeth: it seems could be, but not required to
2020-12-22T08:50:30Z beach: I just don't know what it is supposed to mean.
2020-12-22T08:53:26Z ldbeth: oh, I guess lotuseater means it is worth to learn CLOS as a beginner so many things are not gonna to be missed
2020-12-22T08:56:19Z mrios22: Is there a backup of quickdocs somewhere?
2020-12-22T08:56:50Z phoe: there's quickref
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2020-12-22T08:59:02Z lotuseater: sorry i was cocking. now back
2020-12-22T08:59:10Z mrios22: I'm interested in learning more about the clack library.
2020-12-22T08:59:32Z lotuseater: beach: ok then that CLOS is everywhere?
2020-12-22T08:59:56Z beach: That's definitely true, since every object is an instance of some class.
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2020-12-22T09:00:53Z beach: But CLOS is not "object oriented" with any traditional meaning of "object oriented".
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2020-12-22T09:01:36Z lotuseater: just in the CLOS sense
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2020-12-22T09:02:33Z jackdaniel: lotuseater: this may be of interest: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3243735416407529@naggum.no.html
2020-12-22T09:03:56Z lotuseater: oh thx. Erik is quite famous isn't he?
2020-12-22T09:04:20Z jackdaniel: people have mixed feelings about him; for sure he was a very experienced common lisp programmer
2020-12-22T09:04:50Z lotuseater: "You cannot /not/ use CLOS if you program in Common Lisp." i meant that
2020-12-22T09:04:50Z jackdaniel: also, he /was/ quite famous, he died
2020-12-22T09:04:52Z phoe: I both deeply respect his technical prowess and deeply abhor his way of treating some people
2020-12-22T09:05:08Z lotuseater: yes i knew that (or read about it)
2020-12-22T09:05:15Z phoe: mrios22: https://quickref.common-lisp.net/clack.html
2020-12-22T09:05:30Z phoe: also there's whatever documentation there is on GitHub and the source code, I guess
2020-12-22T09:05:58Z phoe: there's usually not much documentation in Fukamachi's code
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2020-12-22T09:09:37Z mrios22: phoe: thank you
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2020-12-22T10:31:33Z v3ga: hmm, is sbcl.org down?
2020-12-22T10:32:30Z phoe: yes
2020-12-22T10:32:42Z phoe: but! https://sbcl.sourceforge.io/
2020-12-22T10:34:37Z v3ga: phoe: thats what I want. =) thanks
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2020-12-22T10:49:19Z lotuseater: good to know
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2020-12-22T10:51:01Z lotuseater: the SBCL developers seem quite diligent, there is already version 2.0.11 :)
2020-12-22T10:51:41Z jackdaniel: sbcl is known for incremental releases (and that's a good thing of course)
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2020-12-22T10:52:20Z jackdaniel: other implementations usually wait until some changes get accumulated, then go through a long "release" process
2020-12-22T10:54:08Z lotuseater: ok so something like with glasgow haskell compiler as i look at the last version releases: 8.4.4 => 8.6.5 => 8.8.1
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2020-12-22T12:34:39Z mfiano: Does anyone know and good/free software for creating 2D/3D geometrical diagrams, like those you would find in a math paper? This is for creating offline documentation of a CL library in progress.
2020-12-22T12:34:45Z mfiano: s/and/any/
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2020-12-22T12:43:19Z treflip: mifiano: gnuplot is both good and free :D
2020-12-22T12:43:40Z treflip: And you can use it from CL https://github.com/guicho271828/eazy-gnuplot/
2020-12-22T12:44:25Z mfiano: I have never seen any 3D space diagrams in gnuplot, but maybe it can?
2020-12-22T12:47:46Z mfiano: I suppose it can plot 3d contours and such, but I feel I will not be able to draw arbiotrary polyhedron and cast rays to/from arbitrary points
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2020-12-22T12:54:54Z Nilby: It can. http://gnuplot.sourceforge.net/demo_5.4/
2020-12-22T12:56:58Z mfiano: Looks like I can use xmaxima or gnuplot if I go with maxima. Then I get all the nice CAS stuff needed for a lot of computations for free
2020-12-22T13:03:05Z Nilby: wXmaxima is pretty impressive with it's gnuplot integration. I just wish it was all Lisp.
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2020-12-22T13:03:43Z Nilby: But I haven't tried Climaxima yet
2020-12-22T13:05:27Z mfiano: easiest would be to just use my game engine as a renderer, as the math library it uses is exactly what I'm attempting to document.
2020-12-22T13:07:35Z Nilby: yes. self documenting, that's what I like
2020-12-22T13:08:58Z mfiano: It'll take a while to spin up hundreds of example scenes, but it'll be worth it. The math library is nearing 20kloc so lots to document.
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2020-12-22T15:44:01Z mister_m: When I use asdf to "load-op" my system, I am seeing a compilation error during the macroexpansion of something - the error is that a particular helper function is not found, however the output also tells me "It is defined earlier in the file but is not available at compile-time." I am not sure what to do here. Has anyone run into this? I can clean up this code and post it as well I am sure more context may be needed.
2020-12-22T15:44:53Z phoe: mister_m: eval-always the function definition
2020-12-22T15:45:05Z phoe: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (defun ...) ...)
2020-12-22T15:45:22Z mister_m: I'll give it a try, thank you
2020-12-22T15:45:32Z phoe: you must do that for functions which are used in the compilation environment, e.g. when used by macroexpanders
2020-12-22T15:45:52Z mister_m: ah of course that actually in hindsight makes sense
2020-12-22T15:45:59Z phoe: if macro FOO calls a function BAR before returning a value, then BAR must be loaded and available
2020-12-22T15:46:10Z phoe: that's what (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...) does
2020-12-22T15:46:26Z phoe: the remaining two options to EVAL-WHEN preserve the defaults.
2020-12-22T15:46:41Z mfiano: Alternatively, define the function in a file that is LOAD'd earlier
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2020-12-22T15:54:15Z mister_m: mfiano: that's clever but maybe a bit hard to read
2020-12-22T15:55:40Z mister_m: for me tho, not the compiler of course
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2020-12-22T16:22:21Z pyc: Can I load a Lisp package from a git-cloned-dir of the package? I know we can use Quicklisp and ql:quickload but I want to try it myself without Quicklisp's help to understand the fundamentals.
2020-12-22T16:23:09Z beach: pyc: You can use ASDF, but they are not packages.  They are systems.
2020-12-22T16:23:19Z beach: pyc: Quicklisp calls ASDF.
2020-12-22T16:23:36Z pyc: beach: what is the difference between "packages" and "systems"?
2020-12-22T16:24:35Z jackdaniel: a package is a common lisp concept defined in the standard, among other things symbols are interned by the reader in packages
2020-12-22T16:24:35Z beach: A package is a namespace (mapping from strings to symbols), created usually by defpackage.  A system is a collection of components that are to be compiled and loaded in some order.
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2020-12-22T16:25:53Z jackdaniel: a system is a made-up abstraction (i.e not part of the common lisp standard) defined i.e in asdf - a system is roughly the equivalent of a "package" in python
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2020-12-22T16:39:46Z charles`: good morning beach
2020-12-22T16:40:06Z charles`: mister_m do you mean the topic?
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2020-12-22T16:53:07Z iekfkk: does haskell has OOP or structs like scheme
2020-12-22T16:53:15Z iekfkk: can we avoid OOP/structs
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2020-12-22T16:53:45Z iekfkk: all the time , if haskell does it then can scheme too do it, scheme has some structs
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2020-12-22T16:56:14Z jackdaniel: iekfkk: this channel is about common lisp, for sheme try #scheme, for haskell try #haskell, for various lisps ##lisp, for loose discussion #lispcafe
2020-12-22T16:56:21Z jackdaniel: s/sheme/scheme/
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2020-12-22T17:07:17Z jmercouris: anyone written a terminal emulator in CL?
2020-12-22T17:07:27Z jmercouris: I see that it is a requested project on Cliki, just wondering if that is out of date
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2020-12-22T17:18:10Z _death: there's 3bst
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2020-12-22T17:22:42Z jmercouris: _death: link?
2020-12-22T17:23:32Z jmercouris: https://github.com/3b/3bst ?
2020-12-22T17:24:35Z _death: yes...
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2020-12-22T17:25:35Z jmercouris: thanks
2020-12-22T17:25:38Z jmercouris: that is a good starting point
2020-12-22T17:34:42Z jackdaniel: jarvis: what's the time in GMT+3?
2020-12-22T17:35:33Z phoe: Colleen: time in GMT+3
2020-12-22T17:35:34Z Colleen: No location called "GMT+3" could be found.
2020-12-22T17:35:38Z phoe: welp
2020-12-22T17:37:14Z jmercouris: ,faith
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2020-12-22T17:39:06Z jmercouris: to quote fsbot: 40:78 We have sent forth other DOCUMENTATIONs before you, of some you have already heard, of others We have told you nothing. Yet none of these could work a miracle except by EMACS's leave. And when EMACS's will is done, justice will prevail and those who have denied His signs will come to grief.
2020-12-22T17:39:16Z jmercouris: we really need that functionality in Colleen
2020-12-22T17:39:18Z jmercouris: or minion
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2020-12-22T17:42:31Z Nilby: Yet I have sent forth many DOCUMENTATIONs that fuck up EMACS's still failing after 40 years indent code. But yes, I have come to grief.
2020-12-22T17:44:45Z Younder: Fix it and send them the fix?
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2020-12-22T17:51:34Z iekfkk: jmercouris: so islamic did you read the quran?
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2020-12-22T17:54:15Z phoe: hey now, that's getting off-topic
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2020-12-22T19:15:51Z oni-on-ion: phoe, thats where the fsbot text 'came' from.
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2020-12-22T19:16:07Z oni-on-ion: phoe, not sure if iekfkk knows its a bot response.
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2020-12-22T20:54:33Z phoe: well
2020-12-22T20:54:35Z phoe: no idea
2020-12-22T20:54:40Z phoe: but still
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2020-12-22T22:31:11Z phoe: is identity of literal gensyms preserved while compiling code?
2020-12-22T22:33:19Z Bike: the compilation of distinct references to one gensym should still be distinct references to one symbol, yeah
2020-12-22T22:33:25Z phoe: (defvar *foo* (make-symbol "FOO")) (defun foo () *foo*) (define-compiler-macro foo () `',*foo*) (defun test () (eq *foo* (foo)))
2020-12-22T22:33:34Z phoe: is (test) supposed to return T or NIL in this particular case?
2020-12-22T22:33:37Z Bike: in fact "Two apparently uninterned symbols S and C are similar if their names are similar. " so i guess it's a little broader than identity
2020-12-22T22:33:51Z phoe: similarity, yes, but I want identity
2020-12-22T22:34:46Z Bike: ok, hang on now
2020-12-22T22:34:56Z Bike: you're talking about putting these forms in a file and then compiling and loading them, right?
2020-12-22T22:35:01Z phoe: yes
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2020-12-22T22:35:24Z Bike: if you load the fasl into a new image it will run make-symbol again, so *foo* will be bound to something else, so they won't be identical
2020-12-22T22:35:54Z phoe: hmmm.
2020-12-22T22:36:05Z phoe: is it a use case for load-time-value?
2020-12-22T22:36:21Z Bike: what is your use case?
2020-12-22T22:36:55Z phoe: I'm writing something similar to JSON parser except I only deal with string keys here
2020-12-22T22:37:10Z phoe: my idea is to make a pseudo-package which is a weak hash table from strings to gensyms.
2020-12-22T22:37:41Z phoe: and to be able to turn string= comparisons (on keys) into eq comparisons (on symbols).
2020-12-22T22:37:58Z Bike: with you so far
2020-12-22T22:38:00Z phoe: the only reason why I'm using symbols is because they can be eq-compared and are globally unique.
2020-12-22T22:38:28Z phoe: here come compiler macros - I want to be able to perform this transformation at compile-time
2020-12-22T22:39:10Z phoe: so (get object "foo") gets turned into something like (svref (values object) (position '#:g182 (keys object) :test #'eq))
2020-12-22T22:39:21Z Bike: uhhuh.
2020-12-22T22:39:31Z phoe: where #:g182 is (gethash "foo" *pseudo-package*)
2020-12-22T22:39:36Z phoe: except computed at compile time.
2020-12-22T22:39:42Z Bike: right.
2020-12-22T22:39:57Z Bike: and you want an actual (get object "foo") call done after loading to get the same symbol?
2020-12-22T22:40:09Z Bike: to work through the same symbol, whatever.
2020-12-22T22:40:17Z phoe: yes
2020-12-22T22:40:30Z phoe: I want to do as much of the pseudo-interning at compile time for obvious purposes: performance
2020-12-22T22:40:37Z phoe: so I can have EQ comparisons only.
2020-12-22T22:41:27Z Bike: ok, so first off, to be clear, two distinct references to the same object in a compiled file will be distinct references to the same object in the loaded code as well
2020-12-22T22:41:31Z phoe: ideally, the whole hash table should never be accessed at runtime
2020-12-22T22:41:37Z Bike: "If two literal objects appearing in the source code for a single file processed with the file compiler are the identical [sic], the corresponding objects in the compiled code must also be the identical. "
2020-12-22T22:41:47Z Bike: sic again
2020-12-22T22:41:52Z phoe: OK... hold on then
2020-12-22T22:42:40Z Bike: and it sounds to me what you want to do is to dump the hash table into the fasl so the runtime can pick it up again later.
2020-12-22T22:43:07Z phoe: actually, no, not really
2020-12-22T22:43:25Z phoe: the hash table is meant to be filled in during compilation of functions
2020-12-22T22:43:43Z phoe: so I want it empty in the beginning, and then to get its first entry when a call to (get object "foo") is first compiled
2020-12-22T22:43:54Z Bike: okay, but i'm talking about what happens at load time.
2020-12-22T22:43:56Z phoe: that's when I want the map from "foo" to #:g182 to be created
2020-12-22T22:44:03Z Bike: cos when you're loading the fasl there will be nothing being compiled obviously.
2020-12-22T22:44:04Z phoe: oooh, yes, I see
2020-12-22T22:44:14Z phoe: we're talking post-compile-time now.
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2020-12-22T22:44:38Z phoe: OK, I'm with you so far.
2020-12-22T22:45:56Z Bike: i suppose you could accomplish this somewhat goofily by doing (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :execute) (defvar *hash* (make-hash-table))) at the top of the file, and (eval-when (:load-toplevel) (defvar *hash* #.*hash*)) at the bottom
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2020-12-22T22:46:20Z Bike: i think. it's a little exotic ofc
2020-12-22T22:46:29Z phoe: oh no, here come the crazy EVAL-WHEN options that Fare warned me about
2020-12-22T22:46:35Z phoe thinks
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2020-12-22T22:52:26Z phoe: so we create the hash table, let it grow as the code is compiled... and then dump the resulting object into the FASL as a literal into a DEFVAR form
2020-12-22T22:53:10Z phoe: the syntax is going to be kinda goofy and I need to iron out how to make it work across multiple files
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2020-12-22T22:57:12Z phoe: ...or I hook this all into ASDF actually
2020-12-22T22:57:31Z phoe: and once the system is loaded, I dump the hash table into a FASL as an additional compilation artifact
2020-12-22T22:57:51Z phoe: the question is, how will that work cross-FASL with uninterned symbols?... likely won't
2020-12-22T22:59:04Z phoe: I need to experiment with this more when I am awake
2020-12-22T22:59:06Z phoe: like, tomorrow
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2020-12-22T23:36:34Z charles`: is read-sequence faster than (loop ... (read-byte))?
2020-12-22T23:37:19Z no-defun-allowed: I think it would be.
2020-12-22T23:42:35Z charles`: I have too loop through anyway, so may as well only have one loop
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2020-12-22T23:57:52Z Xach: charles`: the difference can be substantial.
2020-12-22T23:58:04Z aeth: it should be able to read 8 bytes at a time, shouldn't it? although the read-byte part can be optimized, too, it's just less likely to be
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2020-12-23T00:38:55Z devon: I tried mmap instead of open once, unbelievably slow, cffi:mem-aref perhaps.
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2020-12-23T00:54:09Z bqv: Yo
2020-12-23T00:54:32Z bqv: Who's the dude that runs quicklisp?
2020-12-23T00:55:34Z no-defun-allowed: Xach?
2020-12-23T00:56:40Z bqv: Ah
2020-12-23T00:57:08Z bqv: Xach: you might be interested in https://github.com/nix-lisp/lisp-overlay
2020-12-23T00:57:37Z bqv: Xach: And a few of the self-inconsistencies it uncovered
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2020-12-23T01:12:22Z Xach: bqv: how can I see those?
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2020-12-23T01:13:48Z mrios22: If I start a lisp process like a Hunchentoot server on a remote machine, how do I get access to a repl that I can use to interact with the server?
2020-12-23T01:13:59Z bqv: Xach: are you at all proficient with nix?
2020-12-23T01:14:04Z Xach: bqv: not at all
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2020-12-23T01:14:17Z Xach: mrios22: there are several approaches
2020-12-23T01:14:34Z bqv: Ah ok. That repo allows one to build any quicklisp package and all dependencies as specified in ql
2020-12-23T01:14:38Z nij: Anyone has learned algorithm using Lisp? I tried to learn it with Lisp, but resources out there are quite little..
2020-12-23T01:14:40Z Xach: mrios22: you can start a swank server and connect to it from slime (same with sly and slynk)
2020-12-23T01:14:50Z Xach: mrios22: you can run the lisp inside screen or tmux and attach
2020-12-23T01:15:10Z bqv: I might have to run it by you when I have more time
2020-12-23T01:15:11Z Xach: mrios22: you could come up with some other protocol for sending forms to evaluate and receiving results
2020-12-23T01:15:20Z bqv: But I thought you might be interested
2020-12-23T01:15:33Z Xach: bqv: i'm always happy to see people make use of quicklisp code & data
2020-12-23T01:16:41Z mrios22: xach: Thank you.
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2020-12-23T01:17:30Z no-defun-allowed: nij: You should be able to implement many algorithms (almost) regardless of language.
2020-12-23T01:17:44Z Xach: mrios22: i use both screen and swank/slime - screen to keep it running (and have a repl in a pinch), and swank/slime for real work
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2020-12-23T01:18:28Z bqv: Xach: the interesting development from this is one could attempt to build every package in a hydra matrix and show which ones fail. E.g. Clml of the previous dist depends on a system omitted from the tarball, as my override shows
2020-12-23T01:18:42Z bqv: So this could be a "test system" for ql
2020-12-23T01:20:29Z Xach: bqv: that's a longstanding missing dependency - i should just remove clml. but nobody has complained, so i guess nobody uses clml through quicklisp.
2020-12-23T01:20:40Z Xach: i'm not aware of other missing deps (i have a report that tells me about them)
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2020-12-23T01:22:32Z bqv: Oh thats the only missing dep, I think, but I did encounter other issues attempting that repo, and the reason I had to in the first place is that nixpkgs distrusts quicklisp's consistency
2020-12-23T01:25:12Z Xach: i am definitely interested in things that may need fixing
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2020-12-23T03:12:35Z devon: Should a macro avoid modifying its &rest arg?
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2020-12-23T03:13:16Z Bike: that would mean modifying code, so yes
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2020-12-23T03:13:27Z Bike: assuming you mean actually mutating the conses
2020-12-23T03:15:24Z devon: Ah, of course.  Thanks.
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2020-12-23T04:01:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-23T04:06:07Z oni-on-ion: good morning
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2020-12-23T04:24:13Z charles`: Good morning. Is it possible to change the delimiter for read-line?
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2020-12-23T04:25:01Z beach: I think you need to create a stream that does it the way you want.
2020-12-23T04:25:22Z beach: As I recall, SBCL has some keyword argument to OPEN for that, in case you are reading from a file.
2020-12-23T04:25:37Z beach: But don't quote me on that.  I may be wrong.
2020-12-23T04:26:30Z beach: :EXTERNAL-FORMAT maybe
2020-12-23T04:27:19Z beach: ... with an implementation-specific value for it.
2020-12-23T04:27:29Z beach: The keyword argument itself is standard.
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2020-12-23T04:28:57Z charles`: My stream is already open
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2020-12-23T04:29:01Z beach: Aha, chapter 8 in the SBCL manual it seems
2020-12-23T04:29:25Z beach: charles`: OK, then I don't know of a way.
2020-12-23T04:29:29Z charles`: I would think it would be a dynamic variable
2020-12-23T04:31:33Z charles`: or another function like (read-until char stream)
2020-12-23T04:32:47Z beach: Well, that's a one-liner, so you can easily implement it yourself.
2020-12-23T04:33:26Z charles`: using read-char?
2020-12-23T04:33:40Z beach: Yeah.
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2020-12-23T04:58:42Z jasom: Does sbcl not support loading core images larger than 4GB?  I'm getting "mmap: Value too large for defined data type" and "load_core_bytes(3,91c98000,50300000,1f0000) failed"
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2020-12-23T06:01:43Z jeosol: jasom: You should probably start the SBCL with a higher dynamic-space-size
2020-12-23T06:02:19Z jasom: jeosol: that's not the problem (it shows a different error if dynamic-space-size is too small)
2020-12-23T06:02:41Z jeosol: yeah, so I am saying pass a higher value, that doesn't work?
2020-12-23T06:04:37Z jeosol: jasom: I have heard some problems when starting with defaults and my core files are large. Maybe it's different from your case
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2020-12-23T10:32:12Z h4ck3r9696: is there a way to check if a symbol is a function? something like (symbol-functionp 'foo).
2020-12-23T10:33:34Z beach: clhs fboundp
2020-12-23T10:33:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fbound.htm
2020-12-23T10:33:44Z h4ck3r9696: thanks!
2020-12-23T10:33:47Z beach: Sure.
2020-12-23T10:34:16Z beach: That way you can check functions with names like (SETF FOO) as well, and not only symbols.
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2020-12-23T12:00:41Z ldbeth: just learned that how limited the terminfo thing is and I'd assume just start to hardcode escape sequences to do fancy print out
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2020-12-23T16:00:46Z phoe: Bike: following up on yesterday's discussion, I have a tiniest test case at https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2196#2196 - compiling-and-loading the file and running the TEST function from there returns NIL
2020-12-23T16:01:01Z phoe: any ideas on how I should hack on this further?
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2020-12-23T16:01:44Z phoe: I kinda wonder about DEFVAR - even though these have differing EVAL-WHEN times, they're executed in the same image, so the latter DEFVAR may have no chance to execute whatsoever - am I right?
2020-12-23T16:01:57Z Bike: yes
2020-12-23T16:02:11Z phoe: if I change this second DEFVAR to DEFPARAMETER then (test) ;=> T
2020-12-23T16:02:32Z phoe: hmmmm
2020-12-23T16:02:47Z Bike: yeah, makes sense
2020-12-23T16:02:53Z phoe: this means that I can try to generalize this further, into a hash table with multiple gensym keys this time.
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2020-12-23T16:19:22Z phoe: Bike: oh I now know what I wanted to do with LOAD-TIME-VALUE
2020-12-23T16:19:27Z phoe: see the annotation at https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2196#2197
2020-12-23T16:19:35Z phoe: (test) also returns T now
2020-12-23T16:19:59Z phoe: and this requires no wonky things at the end of the file.
2020-12-23T16:21:48Z phoe: and this seems to be capable of correctly evaluating the value of *foo* only when the file is loaded, which means that this can access the runtime map of symbols-to-strings at load-time
2020-12-23T16:22:18Z Bike: the first load-time-value is probably irrelevant
2020-12-23T16:23:24Z phoe: yes, I've edited it out
2020-12-23T16:23:40Z phoe: it also won't be in the final code because I'll have functions for accessing this thing
2020-12-23T16:23:46Z phoe: this hash table, I mean
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2020-12-23T16:31:58Z phoe: I think that I finally fully understood LOAD-TIME-VALUE
2020-12-23T16:33:27Z beach: Congratulations!
2020-12-23T16:33:51Z beach: Now try MAKE-LOAD-FORM.
2020-12-23T16:34:17Z phoe: hey, I actually know that one
2020-12-23T16:34:27Z beach: Oh, heh, OK.
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2020-12-23T16:37:55Z phoe: I first played with it back when I wrote the first version of PROTEST that had unreadable macroexpansions and I had to be able to externalize my protocol standard-objects
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2020-12-23T16:38:22Z phoe: and then I remember that I talked with _death during one ELS and he showed me the ENSURE-FOO style of getting things done
2020-12-23T16:38:39Z phoe: and that's when I rewrote things to be better and actually *not* use MAKE-LOAD-FORM
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2020-12-23T16:45:45Z beach: I see.
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2020-12-23T17:08:34Z phoe: Bike: I actually got the idea when there was a discussion on the Lisp discord yesterday about how symbols shouldn't be used for JSON libraries because they leak memory when interned, and strings shouldn't be used for JSON libraries either because they are slow and make it impossible for cache lines to be optimized with their pointer indirection
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2020-12-23T17:09:14Z phoe: so I thought, why not gensyms? EQ-comparable, freely collectible when gathered in a weak hash table
2020-12-23T17:09:25Z phoe: and my prototype is at https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2199#2199 right now
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2020-12-23T17:23:08Z _death: if that's a concern couldn't you just let the user pass a package where the symbols may be interned?
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2020-12-23T17:24:43Z dim: hi there! is it possible to produce a .so from lisp code with ECL? I'm thinking pgloader.so to embed in a C project... cc @jackdaniel if you're around ;-)
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2020-12-23T17:40:00Z dbotton_: dim there are detailed instructions in the ecl manual how to create an .so with ecl
2020-12-23T17:40:28Z dim: thanks! I should read that sometime then, that was more an idle though than a practical pressing need
2020-12-23T17:41:16Z dbotton_: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/manual/System-building.html
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2020-12-23T18:42:40Z jasom: phoe: what's wrong with just a whitelist of symbols?
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2020-12-23T18:54:37Z jackdaniel: dim: it is, if you drop me a mail with details I will answer after the winter holiday
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2020-12-23T18:55:17Z jackdaniel: fun fact: ECL's fasls are in fact shared objects (at least for ccmp on posix)
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2020-12-23T18:55:29Z dim: hehe
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2020-12-23T18:55:58Z dim: well I need to try it, context is a colleague who's warry of not re-implementing half of pgloader and is writing C code
2020-12-23T18:56:19Z jackdaniel: as a bonus point: you may start swank and connect to your C program
2020-12-23T18:56:30Z jackdaniel: (i.e to debug it)
2020-12-23T18:56:33Z jackdaniel: at runtime
2020-12-23T18:58:00Z jackdaniel: that said, I will be rather sparingly available during next few days, so merry christmas, hanukkah and other holidays you all have o/
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2020-12-23T20:00:08Z charles`: does anyone know how to deal with usockets? address in use error?
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2020-12-23T20:10:57Z phoe: jasom: what do you mean?
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2020-12-23T20:11:02Z _death: sounds like you should pass :reuse-address t to socket-listen
2020-12-23T20:11:23Z phoe: charles`: either close the previous socket or restart your Lisp image if you lost your handle to it.
2020-12-23T20:13:28Z phoe: News: the 14th European Lisp Symposium has just been announced, along with its Call for Papers. It will take place May 3 - May 4 2021; it will happen online just like ELS 2020.
2020-12-23T20:13:36Z phoe: More info on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/kj0afz/14th_european_lisp_symposium_call_for_papers_may/?
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2020-12-23T20:19:15Z jasom: phoe: for json deserialization, if you don't desrialize to arbitrary symbols, but just a whitelist of symbols no worrying about memory leaks
2020-12-23T20:20:18Z phoe: jasom: if you know your whitelist ahead of time then it's not a problem
2020-12-23T20:20:34Z phoe: if you want to deserialize arbitrary json then it's a problem.
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2020-12-23T20:24:18Z jasom: phoe: looking at your example, will (pseudo-intern "foo") cause a literal foo to end up in the fasl?  My compiler-macro-fu is a bit weak these days
2020-12-23T20:24:55Z phoe: jasom: nope
2020-12-23T20:25:08Z phoe: LOAD-TIME-VALUE will force it to get evaluated at load time
2020-12-23T20:25:27Z phoe: if it ends up in the FASL, we will lose, because the unFASLized gensym will be a fresh one, and therefore not EQ to whatever we already have in the cache
2020-12-23T20:25:41Z jasom: got it
2020-12-23T20:25:42Z phoe: s/unFASLized/regenerated after loading the FASL/
2020-12-23T20:26:08Z jasom: that's a rather clever solution; anything used statically will stay alive forever, and unused items will eventually go away
2020-12-23T20:26:10Z phoe: that's why LOAD-TIME-VALUE is the tool for this job
2020-12-23T20:26:17Z phoe: yes, because we have a weak hash table
2020-12-23T20:26:32Z phoe: actually we don't need to use gensyms; we can use any objects that have strong identity
2020-12-23T20:26:35Z phoe: so e.g. cons cells
2020-12-23T20:26:44Z phoe: or strings, even though using those would confuse people a real lot
2020-12-23T20:27:16Z phoe: because an EQ hash table with string keys is a bug in 90% cases and is highly confusing and suspicious in the remaining 90% cases
2020-12-23T20:27:45Z phoe: especially if we use literal strings to "access" it, which is what the GET function might suggest
2020-12-23T20:28:31Z phoe: so if memory is an issue, gensyms could be replaced with conses. otherwise, IMO they can stay because, like all symbols, they have names which help with debugging a little bit.
2020-12-23T20:29:27Z phoe: I'll try to flesh this example out more during the holidays and in the worst case I'll end up with the #.(incf n)th json library
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2020-12-23T20:30:46Z jasom: hmm, I wonder if one could make a tree-shaker by putting all the symbols in CL in a weak hash-table, uninterning everything, forcing a GC, then reinterning what's left
2020-12-23T20:31:03Z phoe: that's how some tree shakers are implemented, AFAIR
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2020-12-23T20:31:57Z jasom: There's got to be a reason that won't work on SBCL though, because it would have a tree-shaker if it were really that easy.
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2020-12-23T20:34:16Z phoe: jasom: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/d4740e38bd4e541c29827d922737147b6813e8b3/src/code/shaketree.lisp#L7
2020-12-23T20:34:24Z phoe: exactly the way you described
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2020-12-23T20:35:17Z Krystof: well, but it doesn't shake all that much
2020-12-23T20:35:30Z Krystof: there are plenty of other strong links keeping lots of data structures around
2020-12-23T20:35:51Z phoe: yes, that's just packages in here
2020-12-23T20:36:01Z Krystof: for example: every single class is kept alive by class-direct-subclasses, even if their names disappear
2020-12-23T20:36:30Z phoe: (which is something I've painfully discovered several times)
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2020-12-23T20:41:37Z puchacz: hi, how can I define a type alias? I want to have an alias named default-float-type defined in cl-user in the top file somewhere, and switch it before recompiling everything between single-float and double-float
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2020-12-23T20:42:14Z aeth: DEFTYPE
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2020-12-23T20:43:05Z puchacz: aeth - will I be able to use default-float-type everywhere where single-float is allowed? mind single-float is sometimes quoted, sometimes not
2020-12-23T20:43:10Z aeth: And apparently, this works: (deftype default-float () *read-default-float-format*)
2020-12-23T20:43:18Z aeth: (typep 1f0 'default-float) => T
2020-12-23T20:43:22Z aeth: (typep 1d0 'default-float) => NIL
2020-12-23T20:43:27Z aeth: However, it will be out of sync
2020-12-23T20:43:30Z phoe: aeth: the issue is that this won--- yes
2020-12-23T20:43:41Z puchacz: what will be out of sync?
2020-12-23T20:43:43Z aeth: You'll have to only set *read-default-float-format* through something that also updates the DEFTYPE
2020-12-23T20:43:51Z phoe: this won't get recomputed every time you rebind the variable
2020-12-23T20:44:07Z aeth: i.e. (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float) (typep 1d0 'default-float) => NIL
2020-12-23T20:44:17Z aeth: It's only reading *read-default-float-format* once
2020-12-23T20:44:19Z puchacz: I want it at compile time, so it is fine to set it once
2020-12-23T20:44:30Z phoe: then that'll work
2020-12-23T20:44:39Z puchacz: thanks guys
2020-12-23T20:44:50Z puchacz: I am ok with killing sbcl and starting it again, when I change default-float-type
2020-12-23T20:44:51Z aeth: puchacz: and, yeah, it's just a type
2020-12-23T20:45:02Z aeth: so it'll work when quoted (e.g. TYPEP) and when not (e.g. CHECK-TYPE)
2020-12-23T20:45:17Z puchacz: great, tks
2020-12-23T20:48:30Z puchacz: that one works too :)
2020-12-23T20:48:31Z puchacz: (make-array (list n n) :element-type 'default-float-type :initial-element 0.0)
2020-12-23T20:53:05Z aeth: It's weird seeing 0.0 without an f0 or d0
2020-12-23T20:53:13Z aeth: but that's actually correct in that situation
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2020-12-23T20:53:26Z aeth: In that, it'll work no matter what.
2020-12-23T20:54:19Z phoe: well, it'll get read with the default float type
2020-12-23T20:54:20Z puchacz: I use numcl and it has some strict type definitions so it can optimise matrix operations, it defaults to single-float, I hope it will work seamlessly with my hack
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2020-12-23T21:01:07Z aeth: ime, the library has to be aware that *read-default-float-format* is potentially redefined in order for it to still work when it is redefined
2020-12-23T21:01:16Z aeth: i.e. the single-float stuff has to have the f0 suffix
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2020-12-23T21:51:44Z puchacz: what's the difference between q:quickload and require if the system is already in local quicklisp?
2020-12-23T21:52:03Z puchacz: and ~/.cache/common-lisp is empty, so everything requires compilation
2020-12-23T21:52:43Z phoe: REQUIRE likely invokes ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM
2020-12-23T21:52:57Z phoe: while QL:QUICKLOAD certainly invokes ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM
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2020-12-23T21:53:35Z puchacz: which one should I use?
2020-12-23T21:53:43Z phoe: I suggest ql:quickload
2020-12-23T21:53:53Z phoe: REQUIRE is highly implementation-defined
2020-12-23T21:54:11Z puchacz: is require CL or one of the libraries like ASDF?
2020-12-23T21:54:21Z phoe: not really
2020-12-23T21:54:26Z phoe: CL:REQUIRE is a function that you can call
2020-12-23T21:54:34Z phoe: but what it *exactly* does is implementation-dependent
2020-12-23T21:54:40Z puchacz: I see
2020-12-23T21:54:52Z puchacz: thanks :)
2020-12-23T21:54:53Z phoe: whereas ql:quickload is pretty much implementation-independent.
2020-12-23T21:55:09Z puchacz: CL has rough edges somewhere....
2020-12-23T21:55:16Z puchacz: but anyway :)
2020-12-23T21:55:22Z phoe: I men, ASDF likely hooks into CL:REQUIRE on all popular Lisp implementations, but still, it's one of the parts of the language that I don't really like
2020-12-23T21:55:33Z phoe: especially since ASDF literally does everything CL:REQUIRE is supposed to do, except better
2020-12-23T21:56:03Z puchacz: my least favourites are eval-when which I never understood, but hey ;)
2020-12-23T21:56:35Z puchacz: my takeaway is: do not call require, ever
2020-12-23T21:57:02Z phoe: I think I can agree with this
2020-12-23T21:57:11Z phoe: as for eval-when, there's Fare's article about it that is pretty good
2020-12-23T21:57:22Z phoe: https://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html
2020-12-23T21:57:29Z puchacz: https://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html
2020-12-23T21:57:31Z puchacz: found it :)
2020-12-23T21:57:35Z phoe: yes
2020-12-23T21:57:38Z puchacz: man, I even agree with the title
2020-12-23T21:57:42Z puchacz: cheers
2020-12-23T21:57:51Z phoe: and he's right that only one eval-when combination is useful for 99% of all practical purposes
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2020-12-23T21:58:48Z phoe: and the remaining 1% is for the people who really want to control when given forms are evaluated, mostly because they write their own languages on top of Lisp and they need to control the way FASLs are created... or they are implementing Lisp and they *really* need to control the way FASLs are created
2020-12-23T21:59:18Z puchacz: I am not that 1%
2020-12-23T21:59:26Z phoe: not yet*
2020-12-23T21:59:32Z puchacz: ha
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2020-12-23T22:09:02Z puchacz: humour: Fare in 2009, speaking about Common Lisp: "I'm starting to get a bit tired of it."
2020-12-23T22:09:36Z puchacz: in the "eval-when" article
2020-12-23T22:09:43Z puchacz: comments
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2020-12-23T22:10:21Z jasom: I've (ab)used eval-when and run-program to compile other languages without having to figure out how to extend ASDF
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2020-12-23T22:13:02Z jasom: just wrap the lisp code that will run what you want with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel ...) and add the dependencies in asdf as :static-file
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2020-12-23T22:58:28Z Gnuxie[m]: which crab put gamelisp in the ELS topic
2020-12-23T23:00:33Z phoe: uh oh
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2020-12-23T23:17:19Z varjag: right, before you know it's a rust conference
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2020-12-23T23:23:59Z moon-child: ELS?
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2020-12-23T23:27:40Z Gnuxie[m]: European Lisp Symposium, it's a pretty nice thing
2020-12-23T23:29:07Z moon-child: does anyone know if sbcl uses cdr coding?  I thought it did, but can't find a reference now
2020-12-23T23:31:49Z Bike: i don't think any modern implementations use cdr coding.
2020-12-23T23:38:10Z phoe: SBCL doesn't, for sure
2020-12-23T23:40:28Z jasom: Did the implementations that used CDR coding have vectors as well?  It always seemed like a "poor mans vector" to me
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2020-12-23T23:56:38Z aeth: I mean, it optimizes some code people actually write, even though it's not the right way to write it.
2020-12-23T23:56:56Z aeth: I think in modern programming languages, they tend to only do that with strings, though.
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2020-12-24T00:16:11Z phoe: today's funniest SBCL moment: the return value of #<FUNCTION (LAMBDA (&OPTIONAL &REST &KEY &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS &OPTIONAL)) {52AE0C8B}>
2020-12-24T00:16:14Z phoe: time to go to sleep
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2020-12-24T01:05:03Z pfdietz: (downloads the acm tex template)   ELS is not an ACM conference though, right?
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2020-12-24T02:16:48Z fe[nl]ix: pfdietz: it's not
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2020-12-24T02:17:36Z pfdietz: So I wonder what, if anything, goes into those ACM-specific fields in the tex template.
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2020-12-24T02:51:35Z charles`: Has anyone gotten (usocket:socket-server...) to pass the client socket as an argument to the handler function?
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2020-12-24T03:16:23Z charles`: I guess it is kind of irrelevant isn't it
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2020-12-24T04:02:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-24T09:00:49Z contrapunctus: o/
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2020-12-24T09:10:45Z beach: Hello contrapunctus.
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2020-12-24T09:11:53Z contrapunctus: Hey, beach
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2020-12-24T09:13:08Z contrapunctus: I tried building an executable by following the cookbook - it uses `sbcl --load foo.asd ...`, which fails for me. It seems ASDF is not being loaded before the .asd is? It says that `((:file "src/foo.lisp"))` (value of `:components`) is an illegal function call, and that `defsystem` is an undefined function 🤔
2020-12-24T09:14:23Z contrapunctus: ( https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/scripting.html )
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2020-12-24T09:18:01Z impaktor: If anyone is interested, I put the "PCL Distilled" into an org-mode file, that works well for both html & latex export: https://impaktor.gitlab.io/practical_common_lisp-distilled.html
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2020-12-24T09:19:31Z impaktor: Full source here: https://gitlab.com/impaktor/impaktor.gitlab.io/-/blob/master/posts/practical_common_lisp-distilled.org
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2020-12-24T09:51:09Z birdwing: (defvar *out-streams* '()) (with-output-to-string (srm) (push srm *out-streams*))(format t "~A" out-streams*);==>> CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 41150 tid 41150: Memory fault at 0x7f35 The integrity of this image is possibly compromised.  Continuing with fingers crossed.  (SB-KERNEL:OUTPUT-UGLY-OBJECT #<BROADCAST-STREAM {100003DC43}> #<error
2020-12-24T09:51:10Z birdwing: printing object>)
2020-12-24T09:51:38Z birdwing: sbcl 2.0.11
2020-12-24T09:51:48Z beach: Sounds bad.
2020-12-24T09:52:13Z birdwing: please forward it to #sbcl , thank you
2020-12-24T09:52:16Z beach: What setting for the SAFETY OPTIMIZE quality do you have.
2020-12-24T09:52:47Z beach: Er, are you asking #lisp participants to do the forwarding?
2020-12-24T09:52:54Z birdwing: yes
2020-12-24T09:53:05Z beach: Amazing!
2020-12-24T09:53:07Z birdwing: #sbcl Cannot join channel (+r) - you need to be identified with services - see https://freenode.net/kb/answer/registration
2020-12-24T09:53:09Z beach: Just copy the message to #sbcl.
2020-12-24T09:53:27Z beach: Then use the mailing list.
2020-12-24T09:54:44Z birdwing: in my .sbclrc I have this (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :execute :load-toplevel) (proclaim '(optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (speed 0) (space 0)))
2020-12-24T09:54:48Z rogersm: works fine in SBCL 2.0.11
2020-12-24T09:55:33Z rogersm: Darwin xxx 19.6.0 Darwin Kernel Version 19.6.0: Mon Aug 31 22:12:52 PDT 2020; root:xnu-6153.141.2~1/RELEASE_X86_64 x86_64
2020-12-24T09:55:44Z beach: birdwing: That does sound bad then.
2020-12-24T09:55:50Z rogersm: yep
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2020-12-24T09:57:14Z birdwing: Archlinux x86_64 ; ros list installed => sbcl-bin/2.0.11
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2020-12-24T10:00:56Z rogersm: taking into account how many binaries have been core dumping in my mac lately, I'm happy to see this is not troubling me
2020-12-24T10:03:47Z birdwing: with sbcl 2.0.10  I get the same bug ; no quicklisp loaded , the only thing in my .sbclrc is (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :execute :load-toplevel) (proclaim '(optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (speed 0) (space 0)))
2020-12-24T10:04:26Z rogersm: let me check with your .sbclrc
2020-12-24T10:06:30Z rogersm: yes, I'm able to replicate in a mac
2020-12-24T10:07:39Z rogersm: as a doctor would say: don't do that if you have headaches :D
2020-12-24T10:08:16Z phoe: good morning
2020-12-24T10:08:33Z birdwing: Good morning
2020-12-24T10:08:46Z phoe: birdwing: that's not a SBCL issue
2020-12-24T10:09:15Z phoe: the stream is dynamic-extent.
2020-12-24T10:09:28Z phoe: clhs with-output-to-string
2020-12-24T10:09:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm
2020-12-24T10:09:31Z phoe: "The output string stream to which the variable var is bound has dynamic extent; its extent ends when the form is exited."
2020-12-24T10:09:51Z phoe: so when you push it outside of its dynamic scope, you are invoking undefined behavior.
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2020-12-24T10:10:29Z birdwing: Okay
2020-12-24T10:10:33Z phoe: so, SBCL is right, your code is invalid.
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2020-12-24T10:13:38Z beach: Good catch.
2020-12-24T10:14:33Z beach didn't really look at the code.
2020-12-24T10:16:01Z phoe: DX makes a lot of fireworks on SBCL
2020-12-24T10:16:02Z phoe: ((lambda () (print (restart-bind ((x (lambda ()))) (compute-restarts)))))
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2020-12-24T10:16:23Z phoe: this one I found to be real nice
2020-12-24T10:18:17Z birdwing: phoe, beach: it's code from the ytools package . I like the (out) function , I ve been using it it with *standard-output* until now  but it saves the streams in a table and this lead to this undefined behavior when I used it with with-output-to-stream . https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/9a1rj/eliminating_format_from_lisp/  "My problem with out
2020-12-24T10:18:17Z birdwing: is that it is part of YTools and I have not (over the last 3 or 4 attempts) been able to successfully install and use it." here's a working version:  https://paste.ofcode.org/mYeZRCLZDNHB2Z39L4swzx
2020-12-24T10:18:53Z phoe: wait a second... what's ytools?
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2020-12-24T10:19:44Z birdwing: http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/format-stinks.html       www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/papers/ytdoc.pdf
2020-12-24T10:19:58Z phoe: oh, yes - you cannot use it with w-o-t-s. these streams become invalid once the scope of w-o-t-s expires, and this means that you literally have a hole in your memory safety that is about to suck you out through it when you try to refer to that object.
2020-12-24T10:20:09Z phoe: or, in other words - a dangling pointer, which is a big no-no in a memory-safe world of Lisp.
2020-12-24T10:21:06Z phoe: what sort of table does it save to?
2020-12-24T10:21:49Z birdwing: (defvar out-streams* '())  ;  a simple assoc list
2020-12-24T10:22:26Z phoe: is ytoola available on github somewhere? where can I find its source code?
2020-12-24T10:22:28Z birdwing: https://paste.ofcode.org/mYeZRCLZDNHB2Z39L4swzx at line 116 it saves the stream into that assoc list
2020-12-24T10:22:29Z phoe: Quicklisp does not seem to have it
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2020-12-24T10:22:49Z phoe: oh
2020-12-24T10:23:44Z phoe: that's bad. it treats all streams as having indefinite extent, which is a bug in the library UNLESS the documentation also explicitly mentions that OUT cannot be used with DX streams *WHATSOEVER*, which reduces the usability of the OUT macro because format can be used there just fine.
2020-12-24T10:25:41Z birdwing: the paste.ofcode above is loadable ( I extracted it from http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/software/ytools.tar.gz  , which is not asdf loadable. That's why I shared it here maybe others also like that (out) function and want to use it
2020-12-24T10:29:46Z phoe: that code would enjoy some modernization and possibly have some of its chunks removed - it seems that e.g. yt-install/yt-load has been superseded with ASDF
2020-12-24T10:30:29Z birdwing: yeah
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2020-12-24T10:34:00Z beach: I wonder whether a general write barrier could also catch an attempt to stick an object with dynamic extent in an object with indefinite extent.
2020-12-24T10:34:33Z phoe: hm, as long as you have a way to mark DX'd object in some way
2020-12-24T10:34:44Z phoe: oh wait, you have a way to mark those
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2020-12-24T10:34:49Z beach: The address.
2020-12-24T10:34:52Z phoe: they're allocated on the stack, which is a separate memory region
2020-12-24T10:34:58Z beach: Exactly.
2020-12-24T10:35:08Z phoe: but... that gives you little
2020-12-24T10:35:27Z phoe: (dx-let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (let ((y (list x x x))) ...))
2020-12-24T10:35:37Z phoe: right now we have a DX object inside a non-DX object
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2020-12-24T10:36:11Z phoe: and this is valid Lisp code and we can use both X and Y normally inside of their combined dynamic scope
2020-12-24T10:36:44Z beach: Which one is the non-DX object?
2020-12-24T10:36:49Z phoe: Y
2020-12-24T10:36:56Z beach: It looks DX to me.
2020-12-24T10:37:20Z phoe: DX-LET implicitly does DECLARE DYNAMIC-EXTENT
2020-12-24T10:37:24Z phoe: that was my intent
2020-12-24T10:37:36Z phoe: but there's no such declaration for Y so I assume it gets allocated on the heap.
2020-12-24T10:38:09Z beach: I am not talking about declarations, but about what some escape analysis will determine.
2020-12-24T10:38:27Z phoe: (dx-let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (let ((y (list x x x))) ... y))
2020-12-24T10:38:49Z phoe: if you call CDDDDR on the return value of this, you should be able to get NIL
2020-12-24T10:38:51Z beach: Whether Y gets allocated on the heap or on the stack is not important.  The question is the access to Y.
2020-12-24T10:39:34Z phoe: even if it is a list full of dangling pointers, it is still a proper list so it ends with a NIL
2020-12-24T10:39:53Z phoe: so in this last case Y must be heap-allocated
2020-12-24T10:40:15Z phoe: and even if we figure out that sticking X in Y results in a DX object being stuck in a IX object - what's next?
2020-12-24T10:40:26Z phoe: (IX = Indefinite eXtent)
2020-12-24T10:40:31Z beach: But if Y is returned this way, then it is not DX which a simple analysis will tell you.
2020-12-24T10:40:39Z phoe: yes - sorry for the confusion
2020-12-24T10:41:16Z phoe: but may main question is - yes, even if you catch that "attempt", what will you do with it?
2020-12-24T10:41:26Z beach: Since it is undefined behavior, an error could be signaled.
2020-12-24T10:41:34Z contrapunctus: Anyone have an idea about my sbcl executable issue? 🤔
2020-12-24T10:42:23Z beach: phoe: You may be right that not all cases can be detected.  It was just a thought.
2020-12-24T10:42:34Z beach: I haven't thought it through completely.
2020-12-24T10:42:40Z birdwing: contrapunctus: this issue? "I tried building an executable by following the cookbook - it uses `sbcl --load foo.asd ...`, which fails for me. It seems ASDF is not being loaded before the .asd is? It says that `((:file "src/foo.lisp"))` (value of `:components`) is an illegal function call, and that `defsystem` is an undefined function"
2020-12-24T10:42:40Z birdwing: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/scripting.html
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2020-12-24T10:42:51Z contrapunctus: birdwing: yeah
2020-12-24T10:43:18Z phoe: birdwing: try (require :asdf) as the first thing in your build process
2020-12-24T10:43:49Z contrapunctus: phoe: thanks, I'll try that 😏
2020-12-24T10:43:53Z phoe: beach: hmmmm. yes, you could signal an error, but in what situations? when your escape analysis proves that you are leaking DX objects?
2020-12-24T10:44:35Z phoe: that would be very nice
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2020-12-24T10:47:15Z contrapunctus: phoe: tried `sbcl --eval "(require :asdf)" --load foo.asd ...`, same errors.
2020-12-24T10:47:21Z phoe: but I have no idea if it would rank high on your priority list, all in all.
2020-12-24T10:48:15Z phoe: contrapunctus: hmmmmm, after the require, do (in-package :asdf-user)
2020-12-24T10:49:29Z birdwing: (with-output-to-string (srm) (out (:to srm "Hello")))        I think the crash happens at line 99  https://paste.ofcode.org/mYeZRCLZDNHB2Z39L4swzx     how can one check that the pointer is invalid so it should skip checking if it's a valid stream?  (streamp invalid_pointer)
2020-12-24T10:50:02Z phoe: birdwing: you don't
2020-12-24T10:50:32Z phoe: OUT is in the wrong here and must be corrected
2020-12-24T10:50:50Z birdwing: yes, I mean in the out sourcecode
2020-12-24T10:51:09Z phoe: I mean not the sourcecode, I mean the architecture
2020-12-24T10:51:13Z birdwing: it does a cleanup of that table with lingering dead streams
2020-12-24T10:51:44Z birdwing: during that cleanup it crashes because it tries to do (streamp dead_stream)
2020-12-24T10:51:48Z phoe: it must *NOT* store all streams inside its inner cache and expect them to be of indefinite extent
2020-12-24T10:52:15Z birdwing: yes, so what's the right architecture that we shall use
2020-12-24T10:52:18Z phoe: you can't call a function on a dangling pointer. you can't even detect if a pointer is dangling or not once it's introduced into the system.
2020-12-24T10:52:33Z phoe: I'd start with removing the OUT's stream cache and/or making it optional
2020-12-24T10:52:47Z beach: phoe: Yes, exactly.
2020-12-24T10:52:56Z phoe: the latter would be useful if you could specify (out (:cache-stream-p nil) ...) so it doesn't cache DX streams
2020-12-24T10:53:09Z phoe: but that would still put the burden on the programmer.
2020-12-24T10:53:24Z birdwing: i don't even know why it would cache it
2020-12-24T10:53:29Z phoe: I know, right?
2020-12-24T10:53:33Z phoe: that's why I suggested the former, too
2020-12-24T10:53:51Z beach: phoe: Even better, migrate the object to the heap.
2020-12-24T10:54:04Z phoe: beach: wait
2020-12-24T10:54:07Z phoe: how do you do that?
2020-12-24T10:54:23Z phoe: (with-output-to-string (x) ...) ;; how do you migrate X to the heap?
2020-12-24T10:54:43Z beach: Garbage collectors migrate objects all the time.
2020-12-24T10:54:48Z contrapunctus: phoe: thanks, finally made my first CL executable 😀
2020-12-24T10:55:05Z phoe: beach: no, I mean, how do you do that from inside portable CL?
2020-12-24T10:55:13Z birdwing: "i don't even know why it would cache it" oh i got it, it caches it to avoid repeated creation of Out-stream for the same stream
2020-12-24T10:55:32Z beach: phoe: Oh, it can't be done portably.  I am thinking in terms of system implementation.
2020-12-24T10:55:35Z phoe: birdwing: well then, it needs a way to not cache streams that it should not cache.
2020-12-24T10:55:38Z contrapunctus: phoe: should I make a PR for the cookbook to amend those command lines?
2020-12-24T10:55:41Z phoe: beach: oh. well then, that's a separate discussion.
2020-12-24T10:55:57Z phoe: contrapunctus: you should make an issue detailing your problem - maybe there's a better solution than the one I suggested
2020-12-24T10:57:08Z phoe: birdwing: so if a cache is useful, then OUT needs a way to avoid caching stuff - so my second suggestion
2020-12-24T10:57:16Z phoe: (out (:cache-stream-p nil) ...)
2020-12-24T10:59:58Z birdwing: that would be a way. I think wrapping a block of code with (let (utilz::out-streams* (list))
2020-12-24T11:00:11Z birdwing: would also disable the dangerous caching
2020-12-24T11:01:01Z phoe: sorta
2020-12-24T11:01:09Z phoe: using an internal symbol is sorta iffy.
2020-12-24T11:01:48Z phoe: also, it wouldn't necessarily avoid the issue completely - you're still leaking an object outside its scope, it's just that you drop the invalid reference to it right afterwards.
2020-12-24T11:02:03Z phoe: which is borderline correct.
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2020-12-24T11:22:39Z birdwing: phoe: I made a with-out-to-string macro to be used instead of with-output-to-string when one wants to use (out), so that the programmer doesn't have to manually disable caching on each call to (out)
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2020-12-24T11:24:20Z birdwing: another way would be to use a (defparameter *caching-enabled* nil) setting
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2020-12-24T11:46:39Z phoe: birdwing: actually I'd prefer the second way
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2020-12-24T11:46:56Z phoe: (let ((out:*caching-enabled* nil)) (with-output-to-string (...) (out ...)))
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2020-12-24T11:47:04Z phoe: I assume that WITH-OUT-TO-STRING could expand into such a call
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2020-12-24T11:48:35Z birdwing: ok
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2020-12-24T12:09:09Z _death: in my OUT I do no such caching
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2020-12-24T12:21:38Z _death: ytools OUT does it to maintain indentation state.. I let the user create an indenting stream explicitly.. OUT ops for indentation can then be defined so you can have things like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2208#2208
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2020-12-24T15:32:50Z phoe: I have an issue with my emacs indenting UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE incorrectly - the second argument is indented by 4 instead of by 2.
2020-12-24T15:33:03Z phoe: (trivial-indent:define-indentation uiop:define-package (4 &body)) is not enough to fix it.
2020-12-24T15:33:39Z phoe: how do I begin debugging this?
2020-12-24T15:36:22Z phoe: it seems that emacs indents all sorts of DEFINE-FOO forms in the same way, and this overrides whatever swank is attempting to tell it
2020-12-24T15:36:25Z phoe thinks
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2020-12-24T15:43:51Z Nilby: I'm sorry. I'm sure you know about the emacs debugger. I was sadly noting the other day that emacs still can't indent lisp properly. I've been it using nearly every day since it was written (~40 years). I feel like any regexp base approach will never be 100%. Having a full CL reader and the something like the XP pretty printer, might do it though.
2020-12-24T15:44:30Z Nilby: I wonder if eny emacs ever has done it flawlessly? Zmacs maybe?
2020-12-24T15:45:18Z Nilby: Another fun exmaple is try a paren and the beginning of a line in a docstring.
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2020-12-24T15:46:07Z phoe: yes, \( is required
2020-12-24T15:46:32Z Nilby: But as my boss used to say "You find a bug, you fix it."
2020-12-24T15:46:39Z phoe: yes
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2020-12-24T15:51:00Z _death: phoe: this works for me https://github.com/death/slime/commit/03753ac149677a4c4b26dd428e5bfaf3c25fcf5a
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2020-12-24T16:07:11Z contrapunctus: Is there an anaphoric map for CL? (like --map in dash.el) I looked through serapeum and anaphora to no avail 🤔
2020-12-24T16:07:36Z Xach: What does --map in dash.el do?
2020-12-24T16:07:46Z phoe: _death: yes, I'm figuring out how to run this on spacemacs now
2020-12-24T16:09:06Z contrapunctus: Xach: the argument passed to the function is accessible via `it`, so one can write `(--map (fn foo it) seq)` instead of `(map (lambda (it) (fn foo it)) seq)`
2020-12-24T16:09:23Z Xach: ok
2020-12-24T16:09:34Z contrapunctus: (I suppose I could use a lambda shorthand too.)
2020-12-24T16:09:43Z Xach: I don't know of anything like that offhand, but it's not something I've ever looked for.
2020-12-24T16:10:59Z phoe: _death: (put 'define-package 'common-lisp-indent-function '(4 2)) works well enough
2020-12-24T16:12:17Z _death: phoe: the real question is why define-package uses &rest and not &body
2020-12-24T16:12:34Z Nilby: You can say: (map nil (it (foo it)) seq)
2020-12-24T16:13:19Z _death: phoe: and then, sbcl's defpackage uses &rest too.. weird
2020-12-24T16:13:22Z phoe: _death: same--- yes
2020-12-24T16:13:44Z Nilby: If you first: (defmacro it (&rest e) `(lambda (it) (declare (ignorable it)) ,@e))
2020-12-24T16:15:36Z contrapunctus: Heh, I think I'll use `loop` instead.
2020-12-24T16:15:50Z _death: contrapunctus: or stop worrying about lambda :)
2020-12-24T16:18:01Z _death: pretty-lambdas makes things short anyway
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2020-12-24T16:19:11Z contrapunctus: Is there any easy way to make Emacs indent all CL forms with 2 spaces, i.e. in the defun way?
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2020-12-24T16:19:35Z phoe: wait a second, ALL of them?
2020-12-24T16:19:38Z phoe: why would you do that
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2020-12-24T16:20:12Z contrapunctus: Hate masses of whitespace :\
2020-12-24T16:20:16Z phoe: also, 2 spaces is PROGN; defun has the function name and lambda list indented with 4 spaces instead
2020-12-24T16:20:47Z _death: I don't think we should encourage weird indentations like that
2020-12-24T16:20:54Z phoe: +1
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2020-12-24T16:21:30Z contrapunctus: Q_Q
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2020-12-24T16:27:57Z Nilby: contrapunctus: CL indenting is complex and deep aethetic art, which appears simple on the surfaces, so you're probably not thinking of all the edge cases that these folk have been fixing as we speak
2020-12-24T16:29:24Z contrapunctus: _death: by "pretty-lambdas" do you mean prettify-symbols-mode? 🤔
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2020-12-24T16:49:29Z _death: contrapunctus: for instance.. there are other packages too.  me, I just use a variant of pretty-lambdas shown in https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/PrettyLambda
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2020-12-24T17:34:52Z contrapunctus: Hm, I just made an executable for a tiny script, and when I run it, I get a corruption warning followed by a memory fault error 🤔
2020-12-24T17:35:21Z contrapunctus: http://ix.io/2JpZ
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2020-12-24T17:37:20Z phoe: what is the script in question?
2020-12-24T17:37:27Z phoe: try typing BACKTRACE in there
2020-12-24T17:37:33Z phoe: that should give you a backtrace for what is happening.
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2020-12-24T17:38:49Z Nilby: contrapunctus: Do you have debugging and safety on?
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2020-12-24T17:40:51Z contrapunctus: phoe: thanks, the backtrace pointed out a logic error FWIW. Might fix it.
2020-12-24T17:40:58Z contrapunctus: Nilby: I do not 🤔
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2020-12-24T17:41:56Z Nilby: Adding something like: (declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3))) will in most cases give more useful errors.
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2020-12-24T17:53:21Z contrapunctus: I wonder what this means - `((LAMBDA (SB-PCL::|.P0.| SB-PCL::|.P1.|)) #<unavailable argument> #<unavailable argument>)` 🤔
2020-12-24T17:53:35Z contrapunctus: (From the backtrace)
2020-12-24T17:53:50Z phoe: seems like some internal function from SBCL's CLOS implementation
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2020-12-24T18:09:38Z aeth: is CLOS "closs" or "see-loss"?
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2020-12-24T18:11:50Z Gnuxie[m]: if it was see-loss, then wouldn't it be cee-ell-oss?
2020-12-24T18:11:59Z phoe: sea-ell-oh-ess
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2020-12-24T18:12:10Z Nilby: claws
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2020-12-24T18:15:06Z Nilby: also クロス
2020-12-24T18:15:37Z contrapunctus: Oh hey Gnuxie[m] 😀
2020-12-24T18:16:04Z Gnuxie[m]: hi contrapunctus o/
2020-12-24T18:16:40Z _death: aeth: it depends on your location on earth.. if it's US, east coast and west coast are a factor..
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2020-12-24T19:16:57Z contrapunctus: phoe: so not even fixing the logic errors fixed it...this is the script. http://ix.io/2Jql
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2020-12-24T19:18:05Z contrapunctus: All I can tell from the backtrace is that something went awry in the sqlite library, probably FFI.
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2020-12-24T19:19:31Z phoe: oh! you're using a foreign library
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2020-12-24T19:19:46Z phoe: then you'll need a backtrace to figure out what might have went wrong where.
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2020-12-24T19:21:16Z contrapunctus: Or just switch to a different database library? 🤔
2020-12-24T19:21:47Z phoe: avoiding foreign dependencies is a tactic, yes
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2020-12-24T19:52:09Z pfdietz: And "flet" is pronounced like "flay"
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2020-12-24T19:54:32Z birdwing: contrapunctus: https://codeburst.io/doing-without-databases-in-the-21st-century-6e25cf495373   "manardb is a portable (across Lisps on Linux) memory mapped database for Common Lisp. It frees one from the garbage collector but stays within MOP. According to our benchmarks, when instantiating a object with two slots one million times, manardb is about seven times faster than AllegroCache 2.1.11 on Allegro 8.1, and about fifteen
2020-12-24T19:54:32Z birdwing: times faster than AllegroCache on SBCL 1.0.31. It is more than ten times faster to iterate over the 1M objects created and sum the values of one numeric slot on Allegro Lisp, and about one hundred times faster on SBCL." "7 up to 15 times faster, is a good number" --it saves to disk, it's not an in memory db ; it uses mmap for fast acces --  check:    https://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/ruins-of-forgotten-empires-apl-lang
2020-12-24T19:54:33Z birdwing: uages/      https://codeburst.io/the-relational-database-perfect-storm-how-such-a-bad-technology-became-so-ubiquitous-22bec625986b
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2020-12-24T19:55:39Z birdwing: https://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/ruins-of-forgotten-empires-apl-languages/
2020-12-24T19:58:14Z aeth: pfdietz: Actually, flet follows French rules, so you don't know how to pronounce it without knowing what follows it. If it's followed by a vowel, you do pronounce the t.
2020-12-24T19:58:48Z pfdietz: Is a paren a vowel?
2020-12-24T19:59:37Z aeth: Only on leap days.
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2020-12-24T20:00:39Z aeth: And on ZEROP MOD year 15
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2020-12-24T20:13:30Z phoe: I have a character denoting a hexadecimal digit. What would be the most performant way of converting it to an (unsigned-byte 4)?
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2020-12-24T20:14:35Z phoe: I could compute its char-code and then use several IF < to figure it out. Or I could try doing a CASE and hope it gets properly transformed.
2020-12-24T20:15:44Z Krystof: (digit-char-p <character> 16)
2020-12-24T20:15:45Z TMA: phoe: there is a standard conforming predicate for digits, where the digit value is the true value
2020-12-24T20:16:20Z TMA: this one
2020-12-24T20:16:41Z phoe: !!!
2020-12-24T20:16:45Z phoe: I knew I forgot about this one
2020-12-24T20:16:46Z phoe: thank you
2020-12-24T20:16:58Z Krystof: the inverse is (digit-char <digit> <base>) in case you need it
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2020-12-24T20:17:31Z phoe: thank you
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2020-12-24T20:55:08Z flip214: is that the most performant way? I can think of a check against #\F and then looking up a table, directly doing a few boundary checks and a subtraction (or LOGAND), a jump table, and perhaps some more
2020-12-24T20:55:39Z flip214: and "the most performant way" - for which architecture resp. which CPU exactly? Perhaps there's an SSE4 opcode or so...
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2020-12-24T21:02:31Z phoe: I'll assume that the implementation knows what it's doing
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2020-12-24T21:16:02Z Nilby: Yes, thanks to Krystof's and others hard work, we can say (digit-char-p #\୭) (digit-char-p #\𝟝) and (digit-char-p #\９), although sometimes I think (digit-char-p #\四) (digit-char-p #\➑) should also work.
2020-12-24T21:16:57Z Nilby: but maybe (digit-char-p #\½) => 1/2 would be going too far
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2020-12-24T21:50:22Z contrapunctus tries clsql, and...WARNING: Requested version "2.0" but #<ASDF/SYSTEM:SYSTEM "uffi"> has no version :\
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2020-12-24T21:51:28Z phoe: contrapunctus: where are you getting your uffi from? quicklisp?
2020-12-24T21:51:39Z contrapunctus: phoe: yeah
2020-12-24T21:52:22Z phoe: (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :uffi)) ;=> "2.0.0" for me
2020-12-24T21:52:24Z phoe: huh
2020-12-24T21:53:01Z phoe: what is (asdf:system-source-directory (asdf:find-system :uffi)) for you?
2020-12-24T21:53:06Z contrapunctus: And NIL here 🤔
2020-12-24T21:53:18Z phoe: wait a second...
2020-12-24T21:53:32Z phoe: hm
2020-12-24T21:53:38Z phoe: what's your source directory?
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2020-12-24T21:53:59Z phoe: for me it's #P"/home/phoe/.roswell/lisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/uffi-20180228-git/"
2020-12-24T21:54:22Z contrapunctus: dafawk, why did it put all that in my files ._.
2020-12-24T21:54:29Z phoe: all what in your files
2020-12-24T21:55:35Z contrapunctus: The...local copies of the libraries.
2020-12-24T21:56:05Z contrapunctus: ("dists"?)
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2020-12-24T21:57:01Z phoe: what's the last part of the string? uffi-20180228-git?
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2020-12-24T21:57:39Z contrapunctus: software/cffi_0.16.1/uffi-compat/
2020-12-24T21:57:51Z phoe: hmmm
2020-12-24T21:58:04Z phoe: 0.16.1 is ancient
2020-12-24T21:58:07Z phoe: (ql:update-all-dists)
2020-12-24T21:58:54Z contrapunctus: But whatever made it install stuff in that directory? 🤔
2020-12-24T21:59:08Z phoe: quicklisp, most likely
2020-12-24T21:59:17Z phoe: the question is, why are you using an ancient version of CFFI
2020-12-24T22:00:22Z contrapunctus: (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :uffi)) is still NIL 😔
2020-12-24T22:00:35Z phoe: (ql:update-all-dists) (ql:quickload :uffi)
2020-12-24T22:00:54Z contrapunctus: Yeah, that's what I did
2020-12-24T22:00:59Z phoe: oh wait a second...
2020-12-24T22:01:04Z phoe: (ql:quickload :cffi-uffi-compat) rather
2020-12-24T22:01:28Z phoe: after restarting your image
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2020-12-24T22:05:09Z contrapunctus: phoe: thanks, that got me uffi v2.0.
2020-12-24T22:05:22Z phoe: good
2020-12-24T22:05:23Z Nilby: We're lucky to have phoe's excellent Lisp developer support.
2020-12-24T22:05:28Z phoe blush
2020-12-24T22:06:29Z contrapunctus: However, now if I (ql:quickload :clsql-sqlite) -> UFFI is a nickname for the package CFFI-UFFI-COMPAT 🤔
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2020-12-24T22:09:25Z phoe: oh
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2020-12-24T22:09:47Z phoe: (ql:quickload :clsql-cffi) before (ql:quickload :clsql-sqlite) could help maybe
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2020-12-24T22:10:26Z contrapunctus: Same error
2020-12-24T22:12:12Z phoe: reload the image and try again!
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2020-12-24T22:15:47Z contrapunctus: Thank heavens \o/
2020-12-24T22:16:24Z phoe: :3
2020-12-24T22:23:38Z Alfr_: So much for image based development some people long for.
2020-12-24T22:24:18Z oni-on-ion: squeak/smalltalk does it a bit better. with ChangeSets, built-in version control and source code in the image. i think that is vital.
2020-12-24T22:26:03Z phoe: yes
2020-12-24T22:26:17Z phoe: Lisp has no package versioning or ability to handle multiple versions of a system
2020-12-24T22:26:25Z phoe: that's what beach's FCGEs attempt to solve in the future
2020-12-24T22:27:47Z Nilby: In old lisps the source was in the image e.g. function-lambda-expression
2020-12-24T22:27:57Z contrapunctus: I figured I might try running the program as a cl-launch script before bailing on cl-sqlite and rewriting it to use clsql.
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2020-12-24T22:29:04Z contrapunctus: I added `#!/usr/bin/cl -s csv -s serapeum -s sqlite -E main` to the top of the file, but I get `Component "csv" not found, required by #<SYSTEM "cl-launch-build-0">`
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2020-12-24T22:33:51Z Nilby: Lisp machines effectively had FCGEs and built-in versioning, but it's reasonable to leave that optional in the base language.
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2020-12-24T22:37:26Z lotuseater: Nilby: what does FCGE stand for?
2020-12-24T22:37:39Z contrapunctus: lotuseater: First Class Global Environments
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2020-12-24T22:38:50Z lotuseater: ah thx :)
2020-12-24T22:38:56Z Nilby: ^ yes
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2020-12-25T04:09:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-12-25T04:13:24Z oni-on-ion: happy holiday(s) beach !
2020-12-25T04:13:48Z beach: Thank you!  You too.  And everyone else.
2020-12-25T04:16:30Z charles`: hi
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2020-12-25T04:17:31Z beach: Hello charles`.
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2020-12-25T04:22:22Z pfdietz: FCGE would be a kind of Lisp virtualization?
2020-12-25T04:22:52Z beach: That's a good analogy.
2020-12-25T04:24:32Z beach: I invented them for two purposes.  The most immediate one was bootstrapping.  I needed a way to isolate SICL code from host code with the same names, for the purpose of bootstrapping.
2020-12-25T04:25:23Z beach: The second purpose is one of security.  I wanted it to be harder to have malware installed in your system if all you do is load some code.
2020-12-25T04:26:20Z beach: By moving sensitive things like code generators to a separate first-class global environment, it becomes harder to violate the internal consistency of the system.
2020-12-25T04:27:41Z beach apologizes for the dangling participle. 
2020-12-25T04:28:52Z pfdietz: I could use something like that for mutation testing, although I could also fork and do dangerous things in the child process.
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2020-12-25T04:39:10Z beach: So, "Santa" gave me phoe's book as a present, so thank you phoe for writing it.
2020-12-25T04:40:50Z beach has this suspicion that "Santa" was really his (admittedly small) family in disguise. 
2020-12-25T04:46:33Z beach: I think the book is an important document.  The introduction by Kent Pitman and the preface clearly show how the creators of every mainstream language invented after Multics PL/I got it wrong, which of course is simultaneously totally amazing and totally absurd.
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2020-12-25T05:19:10Z charles`: how come functions exist? why isn't everything a defmethod?
2020-12-25T05:20:56Z beach: If every function was specified to be generic (which is probably what you mean), then there would be problems with what the AMOP calls "metastability".  However, the standard allows for the system implementer to create a generic function in place of an ordinary function when that is practical.
2020-12-25T05:21:56Z charles`: Does that mean that it could get confused which method to call?
2020-12-25T05:23:50Z beach: It means that you would get into an infinite computation.  For example, if you add a method to a generic function, you need to compute its discriminating function.  But then, if you add a method to the function that computes discriminating functions, you immediate get into an infinite computation .
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2020-12-25T05:24:45Z charles`: I see
2020-12-25T05:25:35Z edgar-rft: charles`: the reason is just simply that functions do not need to dispatch their arguments and therefore are usually faster than methods, another reason is historical, Lisp had functions *before* it had methods.
2020-12-25T05:26:08Z charles`: Excellent points
2020-12-25T05:27:58Z beach: edgar-rft: I really don't want to discourage people from using generic functions on the basis of performance.  Especially programmers with only superficial knowledge can take that kind of advice to be a rule, and that would encourage lesser solutions to many problems.
2020-12-25T05:29:43Z beach: Furthermore, the performance problem is mainly due to the fact that existing Common Lisp implementations were created at a time when a memory access was as fast as a register access, so the techniques for generic dispatch used in current systems are not optimal.  But we know how to do it better these days.
2020-12-25T05:30:02Z charles`: My particular use case is that I want a subroutine called "close" but that is used by common-lisp:close for streams. I'm closing something else.
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2020-12-25T05:30:51Z beach: charles`: You would create your own package in which CLOSE is a different symbol.  Then you make your "subroutine" a generic function as much as you like.
2020-12-25T05:31:40Z charles`: but I also want to export it. if someone :use s my library then it would conflict right?
2020-12-25T05:31:53Z beach: They should not :USE your package.
2020-12-25T05:32:08Z charles`: It isn't designed to be :USE anyway
2020-12-25T05:32:30Z charles`: but I am :USE :cl
2020-12-25T05:32:34Z beach: Now that we have package-local nicknames, there is no need to :USE packages other than the COMMON-LISP package.
2020-12-25T05:33:01Z beach: You can :USE the COMMON-LISP and :SHADOW symbol names that you want yourself.
2020-12-25T05:33:05Z beach: I do that all the time.
2020-12-25T05:33:54Z edgar-rft: :USE :CL is okay but :USE :RANDOM-PACKAGE can lead to problems
2020-12-25T05:34:22Z charles`: as long as it dosn't export the symbol "close"
2020-12-25T05:34:40Z beach: You can export the symbol CLOSE and you should if you want client code to use it.
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2020-12-25T05:35:56Z charles`: I meant as long as the "random package" doesn't export close
2020-12-25T05:36:30Z beach: charles`: It is a bad idea to :USE packages other than the COMMON-LISP package, as edgar-rft points out.
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2020-12-25T05:37:15Z beach: charles`: Imagine a future version of the random package that now exports one more symbol that clashes with a symbol with a similar name in a different package that you :USE.  That means that the author of a random package can break your code.
2020-12-25T05:37:19Z beach: Not a great scenario.
2020-12-25T05:38:38Z charles`: Is there a way for asdf or quicklisp to ask for a specific version of a package?
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2020-12-25T05:40:35Z charles`: "Now that we have package-local nicknames..." is that because we can just make very short nicknames?
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2020-12-25T05:40:51Z beach: Yes.
2020-12-25T05:41:10Z charles`: pws
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2020-12-25T08:42:48Z phoe: beach: thanks
2020-12-25T08:43:02Z phoe: hope it serves you well
2020-12-25T08:43:33Z phoe: charles`: (local-nicknames (#:p #:systems.raptor.very.long.package.name.by.phoe)) and then (p:foo ...)
2020-12-25T08:43:51Z beach: I am sure it will.
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2020-12-25T08:48:38Z phoe: hmmmmm
2020-12-25T08:48:43Z phoe: I am working on a state machine right now
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2020-12-25T08:48:54Z phoe: and I want to be able to test individual states separately
2020-12-25T08:49:13Z phoe: but I also want the final state machine to compile into a single big TAGBODY for efficiency
2020-12-25T08:49:47Z phoe: does anyone know of a library that achieves these goals, or is it time for holiday phoe hacking?
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2020-12-25T09:31:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hi, everyone!
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2020-12-25T09:31:25Z phoe: heyyyy
2020-12-25T09:32:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I see bugging people about quicklisp stats actually had an effect :)
2020-12-25T09:33:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks phoe / Xach !
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2020-12-25T09:33:53Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: :D
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2020-12-25T09:47:32Z phoe finds no such library
2020-12-25T09:47:50Z phoe invokes quickproject:make-project
2020-12-25T09:58:17Z v3ga: ok, so i just recently updated to sbcl 2.0.11 and used it for a few days. now for some reason it's not working on OSX. then on my linux box sly is acting odd. I can start sly up but in my lisp files it refuses to connect
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2020-12-25T10:14:51Z v3ga: ok well thats one down...osx works again.
2020-12-25T10:16:27Z phoe: what's the sly issue? why does it refuse to connect?
2020-12-25T10:16:33Z phoe: what does the inferior-lisp buffer say?
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2020-12-25T10:22:41Z v3ga: well inferior I have set to "/usr/bin/local/sbcl" which oddly did work last night.
2020-12-25T10:22:48Z phoe: no, I mean the buffer
2020-12-25T10:22:59Z v3ga: ahh one sec
2020-12-25T10:23:42Z v3ga: phoe: yeah that works. 2.0.11 appears as it shoudl
2020-12-25T10:24:02Z phoe: I mean, you said it refuses to connect
2020-12-25T10:24:14Z phoe: what does the *inferior-lisp* buffer say when you try to execute sly?
2020-12-25T10:24:52Z v3ga: so M-X sly...it opens a sly-mrepl but say if i try to evaluate an s-expr from my lisp file thats open it says "Not Connected."
2020-12-25T10:25:42Z phoe: you keep on avoiding my question
2020-12-25T10:25:52Z phoe: what does the *inferior-lisp* buffer say after you have done M-x sly?
2020-12-25T10:25:55Z v3ga: oh it's still looking for slime-connection
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2020-12-25T10:28:16Z v3ga: and *inferior lisp* starts up and gives a repl and no further messaging. i should be able to work it out from here. I'm a bit unfamiliar with common lisp toolings in emacs but I at least see partially what it's doing now
2020-12-25T10:28:27Z phoe: hmmmmmm.
2020-12-25T10:28:40Z phoe: does it show that it's loading up sly? any messages there?
2020-12-25T10:31:23Z v3ga: yeah. what's happening is my buffer that holds .lisp files still goes to slime-mode. I'm not seeing where I hook it in my init but i'll find it. I need to do some pruning anyways.  Funny it throws a message asking if you'd like to remove the slime hook which I choose 'yes' but it's still coming up.  I'll chalk this up to my horrid .init.el
2020-12-25T10:31:47Z phoe: oooh
2020-12-25T10:31:55Z phoe: so you have clashes between slime and sly!
2020-12-25T10:33:42Z v3ga: yup. and oddly I have 100% of my slime related forms commented out.  recompiled init.el.
2020-12-25T10:33:44Z v3ga: weird...
2020-12-25T10:35:29Z v3ga: i'll make it explicit...
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2020-12-25T10:50:16Z v3ga: phoe: interest, i had to completely remove slime.  I'd had an issue...now that I remember. pulling sly from MELPA never worked on linux. I had to grab the git repo. on OSX it was installed in one shot.
2020-12-25T10:50:35Z v3ga: interesting*
2020-12-25T10:50:36Z phoe: I see
2020-12-25T10:51:39Z v3ga: I see some people have issues with 'sly-autoloads'. it seems to be hit or miss.  ah well, it's working now
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2020-12-25T11:08:49Z phoe: What are the best practices when defining new DOCUMENTATION types?
2020-12-25T11:09:06Z phoe: I mean, defining the proper set of methods for DOCUMENTATION and where to store the docstrings.
2020-12-25T11:10:38Z beach: The best thing is when you can associate the docstring with some object being documented.  Then you don't have to worry about what happens when the object disappears, or is redefined.
2020-12-25T11:10:43Z phoe: I'd like to have a similar API like CLHS DOCUMENTATION mentions for method combinations, so, three methods in total. My objects can be both named (via a global namespace) or anonymous.
2020-12-25T11:10:58Z phoe: OK - in my case it means, storing it in a slot of the object in question.
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2020-12-25T11:16:01Z phoe: I have an issue with SETF DOCUMENTATION specialized on SYMBOL and MY-CLASS. If there is no instance of MY-CLASS globally named by SYMBOL, does the DOCUMENTATION protocol allow me to signal an error?
2020-12-25T11:16:20Z phoe: Asking because (setf (documentation 'foo 'function) "haha") seems to succeed even though no #'FOO is globally defined.
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2020-12-25T11:16:41Z phoe: And this complicates things for me because I need to account for documentation for objects that don't (yet) exist.
2020-12-25T11:17:47Z beach: Does it return "haha" when you do (documentation 'foo 'function) later?
2020-12-25T11:17:57Z phoe: yes
2020-12-25T11:18:13Z beach: Messy!
2020-12-25T11:18:14Z phoe: ...on SBCL, that is
2020-12-25T11:18:20Z phoe: not on CCL!
2020-12-25T11:18:29Z beach: What does CCL do?
2020-12-25T11:18:33Z phoe: NIL
2020-12-25T11:18:37Z phoe: and it's conforming
2020-12-25T11:18:41Z beach: But it still allows you to SETF it?
2020-12-25T11:18:44Z phoe: oh wait a second...
2020-12-25T11:18:45Z phoe: yes
2020-12-25T11:18:49Z beach: Hmm.
2020-12-25T11:18:55Z beach: Very messy!
2020-12-25T11:18:58Z phoe: "An implementation is permitted to discard documentation strings at any time for implementation-defined reasons."
2020-12-25T11:19:01Z phoe: here's my escape hatch!
2020-12-25T11:19:14Z beach: Mhm.
2020-12-25T11:19:27Z phoe: my SETF function can allow the programmer to "set" the documentation string for an unknown object by immediately discarding it.
2020-12-25T11:19:42Z beach: I really think DOCUMENTATION is suboptimal in today's world.
2020-12-25T11:19:56Z phoe: I agree, but it exists
2020-12-25T11:20:02Z beach: But until we can agree upon something better, that's what we have.
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2020-12-25T12:37:41Z phoe: clhs variable
2020-12-25T12:37:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2020-12-25T12:37:47Z phoe: ...obviously
2020-12-25T12:38:19Z phoe: I have just discovered another of the majestic symbols of the CL package that are not important enough to have their own CLHS page
2020-12-25T12:38:32Z phoe shadows it and continues
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2020-12-25T13:02:26Z varjag: slyrus: pr's there
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2020-12-25T13:18:07Z phoe: I just realized that I'm writing something akin to the GF/method machinery
2020-12-25T13:18:29Z phoe: except instead of method objects, I'm adding states to the state machine
2020-12-25T13:18:44Z phoe: or rather, state definitions - the states are defined up front
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2020-12-25T13:34:14Z heisig: phoe: Sounds like you should use method combinations :)
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2020-12-25T13:45:37Z phoe: heisig: I actually have a slightly different objective
2020-12-25T13:46:49Z phoe: I want to write a class that describes a state machine, with state machine definitions, that can verify that all states are implemented, no unexpected state transitions occur, and finally compile the whole state machine into a big ole TAGBODY for efficiency
2020-12-25T13:47:19Z phoe: mecombs alone won't give me this last point
2020-12-25T13:47:38Z phoe: oh, and each state should be independently testable, too
2020-12-25T13:49:34Z heisig: I see.  Of course all this would be doable with the MOP, but I fully understand why you don't want to go down that route :)
2020-12-25T13:50:39Z phoe: I mean, I *could* define my own GF class and my own method class and treat methods as state definitions and the GF as the whole state machine
2020-12-25T13:52:21Z phoe: and, honestly, since my state machines are going to be funcallable and since I'm already writing ENSURE-STATE-MACHINE-USING-CLASS et al, I think that by the end I'll arrive at a point where my solution will be somewhat easily transferrable to standard GFs
2020-12-25T13:52:58Z heisig: This is about your JSON parser, right?
2020-12-25T13:53:03Z phoe: yes
2020-12-25T13:53:21Z phoe: don't write JSON parsers, kids, they lead into the dark despair of MOP yak shaving
2020-12-25T13:54:12Z heisig: MOP yaks are the best yaks :)
2020-12-25T13:54:25Z phoe: said the guy specializing in MOP yaks
2020-12-25T13:54:43Z heisig: :D
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2020-12-25T14:23:27Z kenran: For someone kinda new to LISP (I've done some Clojure in the past), in what order would you recommend I read "On Lisp" and "Let Over Lamda"?
2020-12-25T14:23:49Z beach: On Lisp is not for beginners.
2020-12-25T14:23:50Z phoe: Practical Common Lisp -> On Lisp -> Let Over Lambda
2020-12-25T14:23:57Z phoe: or
2020-12-25T14:23:59Z kenran: I'm reading The Seasoned Schemer at the moment, as well as Practical Common Lisp, and plan to tackle one of the above right after.
2020-12-25T14:24:03Z phoe: Graham's ANSI Common Lisp -> On Lisp -> Let Over Lambda
2020-12-25T14:24:14Z beach: What about PAIP.
2020-12-25T14:24:15Z phoe: but I recommend PCL over ANSI CL
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2020-12-25T14:28:11Z kenran: Thanks!
2020-12-25T14:28:23Z beach: PCL is definitely better than ANSI Common Lisp since it talks about CLOS.
2020-12-25T14:28:50Z beach: minion: Please tell kenran about PAIP.
2020-12-25T14:28:51Z minion: kenran: PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2020-12-25T14:29:00Z beach: kenran: That one is a great book as well.
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2020-12-25T14:29:53Z kenran: minion: Ah, nice. I knew what it is, but didn't know it was "open sourced"!
2020-12-25T14:29:53Z minion: Ah, nice. I knew what it is, but didn't know it was "open sourced": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/Ah%2C%20nice.%20I%20knew%20what%20it%20is%2C%20but%20didn't%20know%20it%20was%20\"open%20sourced\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 102..
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2020-12-25T14:30:13Z beach: minion: Thanks!
2020-12-25T14:30:13Z minion: you're welcome
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2020-12-25T14:35:04Z ck_: what a world we live in, now even some characters are illegal
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2020-12-25T15:11:00Z phoe: hmmmmmmmm
2020-12-25T15:11:27Z phoe discovers the feud raging between :DEFAULT-INITARGS and SHARED-INITIALIZE
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2020-12-25T16:00:29Z p_l: A quick if non-trivial question: is there a way, assuming closer-mop present and given a superclass, to invoke a method on all instances of any subclass of said superclass? And gather them into a list
2020-12-25T16:02:51Z _death: well, there's sb-vm:list-allocated-objects if you're using SBCL (assuming it's something you want to do at the REPL)
2020-12-25T16:03:31Z beach: Wow, SBCL keeps a reference to each instance of a class?
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2020-12-25T16:04:05Z _death: beach: no, it traverses memory like the gc
2020-12-25T16:04:16Z beach: Oh, OK.  Good!
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2020-12-25T16:10:30Z pfdietz: (equalp (split-sequence #\; input) (values output index))
2020-12-25T16:10:33Z pfdietz: What
2020-12-25T16:11:41Z p_l: Hmmm... On longer look, it seems my idea is a bit brain damaged, and shared allocation slot will be better
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2020-12-25T16:15:40Z pfdietz: phoe: which json parser is yours?  Or is this a new one?
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2020-12-25T16:19:37Z pfdietz: When I compared CL json parsers, jsown was by far the fastest.   And in some applications the speed of the json parser dominated the run time.
2020-12-25T16:19:40Z phoe: pfdietz: a new one; a quick hack version is at https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2212#2212 and it sports a TAGBODY that is way, WAY too large and non-unit-testable for my taste.
2020-12-25T16:19:57Z phoe: I want to use a single tagbody for performance reasons and then tune everything else I can
2020-12-25T16:20:23Z phoe: without sacrificing safety like jsown dows.
2020-12-25T16:20:25Z phoe: dows.
2020-12-25T16:20:28Z phoe: ....does.
2020-12-25T16:20:48Z pfdietz: Interestingly, I wanted to get out a representation where attributes were keywords.  Conversion of strings to keywords was a bottleneck, but it was greatly accelerated by short circuiting the common cases (for that json) with string-case.
2020-12-25T16:21:05Z phoe: I use a hack where attributes are gensyms
2020-12-25T16:21:11Z phoe: that should avoid memory leaks, too.
2020-12-25T16:21:34Z phoe: and I optimize calls like (get object "foo") into EQ hash table accesses.
2020-12-25T16:21:47Z pfdietz: In this case the application consuming the parsed json wanted keywords.
2020-12-25T16:21:53Z phoe: yes, I see
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2020-12-25T16:26:24Z _death: some years ago I used jsmn (a small json decoder in C) in some project.. that approach could be fast and nonconsing
2020-12-25T16:30:49Z phoe: for such a project, I'd prefer to avoid FFI if possible
2020-12-25T16:31:11Z _death: phoe: it would be easy to write it in Lisp
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2020-12-25T16:31:46Z _death: (the project was not..)
2020-12-25T16:32:02Z phoe: _death: you mean, rewrite jsmn in Lisp?
2020-12-25T16:32:08Z _death: yes
2020-12-25T16:33:08Z phoe: I think I'm doing something equivalent, looking at https://github.com/zserge/jsmn/blob/master/jsmn.h
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2020-12-25T16:36:31Z _death: again, note that jsmn doesn't cons
2020-12-25T16:37:41Z phoe: wait a second... how does it store output then? it accepts a preallocated array of tokens?
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2020-12-25T16:38:06Z _death: yes
2020-12-25T16:38:27Z _death: and there's no string copying involved
2020-12-25T16:38:36Z _death: it just uses indices into the original string
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2020-12-25T16:41:30Z phoe: hmmmm
2020-12-25T16:42:03Z phoe: I have no idea if that approach is viable in the Lisp world where people are used to manipulating objects that have identity, rather than using offsets into a string
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2020-12-25T16:42:46Z _death: well, for that approach there are the myriad existing json libraries :)
2020-12-25T16:42:50Z phoe: yes
2020-12-25T16:43:12Z phoe: then that's an even more extreme approach than what I am working on
2020-12-25T16:45:21Z _death: the project I used it for was a soft real-time thing, so I could've gone for allocating decoders.. but jsmn was small and nifty (could just copy over the header), and the json part was a tangential thing anyway
2020-12-25T16:45:32Z phoe: yes, I see
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2020-12-25T16:49:11Z pfdietz: Offsets into a string?  Displaced arrays.
2020-12-25T16:49:43Z pfdietz: Granted, the header for those is allocated.
2020-12-25T16:50:02Z slyrus: varjag: thanks! Will review after xmas.
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2020-12-25T16:50:10Z _death: and that header might even be larger than the string ;)
2020-12-25T16:51:17Z phoe: ^
2020-12-25T16:51:20Z phoe: that's the worrying part :D
2020-12-25T16:51:47Z _death: for the tokens you could let the user pass a vector and use vector-push-extend.. then the user can pre-allocate with a fill-pointer
2020-12-25T16:52:44Z pfdietz: If one breaks the big vector into small strings, one can recognize when the small string is a base-string.   Annoying when there's a non-base char somewhere in a large string, forcing an inefficient representation.
2020-12-25T16:53:08Z pfdietz: I want an "almost base string" type that encodes such cases more efficiently.
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2020-12-25T16:55:34Z varjag: slyrus: cool
2020-12-25T16:56:03Z varjag: slyrus: there are two parts which are really unrelated: the thinning algo and the mod for ascii pnm writing
2020-12-25T16:56:27Z varjag: found that i did the latter ca. 2017 and forgot to submit
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2020-12-25T17:08:49Z hendursaga: Anyone know of a GraphViz dot *parser*? All I see are generators so far..
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2020-12-25T17:44:15Z phoe: Minor announcement: the IRC channel #clcs (short for Common Lisp Community Scribes) welcomes people interested in Common Lisp bookwriting - be it about sharing their own stuff, asking/performing reviews, or just chilling in general.
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2020-12-25T18:07:10Z aeth: well, more than that, for offsets into strings/sequences, nearly every function has a start/end or start1/end1/start2/end2
2020-12-25T18:07:14Z aeth: Not just displaced arrays.
2020-12-25T18:07:19Z aeth: I'd argue anything idiomatic has that.
2020-12-25T18:07:32Z phoe: yes, but still
2020-12-25T18:07:47Z phoe: I can see the appeal, but I can see the costs, too
2020-12-25T18:08:02Z phoe: pfdietz: almost base string... in-memory utf-8 strikes again
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2020-12-25T18:16:26Z lonjil: One day I want to coax a CL implementation to be UTF-8, including from the user POV for strings.
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2020-12-25T18:17:11Z phoe: How does one efficiently fetch a Nth character of a UTF-8 string?
2020-12-25T18:17:15Z phoe: (sorry about the non-Lisp question)
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2020-12-25T18:19:54Z lonjil: phoe: You don't. However, in the land of Unicode, you can't fetch the Nth character from a UTF-32 string either.
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2020-12-25T18:20:20Z phoe: wait, why? I thought utf32 was secure against that because you have constant character size
2020-12-25T18:20:34Z lonjil: You can fetch the Nth code point, but when you venture from European languages, often a character can be made of multiple code points.
2020-12-25T18:20:40Z phoe: oooooh
2020-12-25T18:20:43Z phoe: yes. I see.
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2020-12-25T18:23:59Z aeth: lonjil: but only SBCL with SB-UNICODE actually tries to implement the Unicode algorithms like e.g. sb-unicode:uppercase, which (1) has to apply to a string and not a character, (2) cannot round-trip, and (3) is locale-dependent
2020-12-25T18:24:03Z aeth: (values (sb-unicode:uppercase "ß") (sb-unicode:uppercase "i") (sb-unicode:uppercase "i" :locale :tr) (sb-unicode:lowercase (sb-unicode:uppercase "ς")))
2020-12-25T18:24:18Z lonjil: Most diacritics for the Latin alphabet in Unicode has pre-composed forms, such as 'ö'. You can also do 'o' followed by the '¨' combiner, but for Latin no-one bothers with this. But outside of Latin most scripts in Unicode don't have pre-composed forms, and things are done by composing multiple code points.
2020-12-25T18:24:27Z aeth: The portable stuff like CHAR-UPCASE can't comply with Unicode because of the guarantees that the standard makes with characters...
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2020-12-25T18:26:01Z lonjil: aeth: yes. Though for strings I don't think any of that really matters w.r.t. UTF-32 vs UTF-8 strings. Though doubtlessly UTF-8 strings would break a lot of stuff.
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2020-12-25T18:33:01Z phoe: aeth: this reminds me
2020-12-25T18:33:05Z phoe: this typed slot sort of thing
2020-12-25T18:33:11Z phoe: have you ever published it as a separate library?
2020-12-25T18:33:25Z aeth: phoe: no, it's in my backlog but it has been glacial because 2020 is 2020
2020-12-25T18:33:33Z phoe: yes, I see
2020-12-25T18:33:41Z aeth: like I'm moving at 1/5 pace or whatever :-p
2020-12-25T18:33:48Z phoe: I can imagine, yes
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2020-12-25T18:41:52Z aeth: According to Gitlab I have 31 open issues and then I probably have another 40-60 or so I need to file.
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2020-12-25T18:46:30Z aeth: oh, hmm
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2020-12-25T18:47:51Z aeth: Does CFFI accept an integer everywhere where it also accepts a pointer?
2020-12-25T18:48:53Z aeth: Because I can't make an array of CFFI:FOREIGN-POINTERs, but I can make an array of (UNSIGNED-BYTE 64)s... or even just constantly do nonconsing arithmetic on the (UNSIGNED-BYTE 64)s, at least in SBCL when it doesn't leave the scope of the function.
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2020-12-25T18:50:02Z phoe: aeth: (cffi:make-pointer #x12345678)
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2020-12-25T18:50:32Z aeth: phoe: my game loop is non-consing.
2020-12-25T18:51:17Z phoe: oh. hmmm.
2020-12-25T18:52:24Z aeth: It's mostly fine, I just need a very clever way to do the matrix pointers. Or I can just precalculate them and shove them in a giant, T-typed array like I currently do.
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2020-12-25T18:58:49Z aeth: I suppose if I really had to, I could cheat with assembly because I only guarantee that it's nonconsing with the x86-64 SBCL...
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2020-12-25T19:20:33Z ane: is there a standard restart SLIME/SLY knows how to invoke for something like "use-value"? what sort of magic is needed there? it seems sometimes SLIME/SLY will ask for new values on certain kinds of restarts
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2020-12-25T19:21:28Z phoe: swank:*sldb-quit-restart* is for the Q button
2020-12-25T19:21:48Z phoe: as for USE-VALUE - it's no swank, AFAIK it's standard restart functionality
2020-12-25T19:22:03Z phoe: AFAIK all swank/slime do is rebinding *query-io* into something that can accept values from the minibuffer
2020-12-25T19:23:19Z ane: ok, thanks
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2020-12-25T19:26:15Z phoe: as for a "standard restart", what do you mean?
2020-12-25T19:26:27Z phoe: the swank/sly debugger uses the standard COMPUTE-RESTARTS function to get a list of all restarts
2020-12-25T19:29:43Z ane: I meant there's some way swank recognizes that this restart is interactive
2020-12-25T19:32:01Z ane: indeed, :interactive (lambda () (list (read *query-io*)) does the trick
2020-12-25T19:32:20Z phoe: it doesn't need to recognize anything
2020-12-25T19:32:28Z ane: yes, right, in fact it doesn't
2020-12-25T19:32:30Z phoe: it simply calls INVOKE-RESTART-INTERACTIVELY
2020-12-25T19:32:34Z ane: only the quit restart maybe?
2020-12-25T19:33:14Z phoe: the Q-key restarts are probably not interactive
2020-12-25T19:33:20Z phoe: ABORT restarts usually accept zero arguments
2020-12-25T19:33:31Z phoe: so INVOKE-RESTART-INTERACTIVELY is the same as INVOKE-RESTART in that case
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2020-12-26T04:08:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-26T08:24:51Z saganman: Good Afternoon beach
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2020-12-26T08:37:43Z phoe: good morning
2020-12-26T08:37:51Z beach: Hey phoe.
2020-12-26T08:41:16Z phoe: hello
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2020-12-26T10:30:05Z phoe: because I was amused by one typo on the Internet, today I have peeked into dpANS3 with the intent of replacing the term "compilation" with "complication"
2020-12-26T10:30:55Z phoe: the first terms that come to mind are the optimization quality COMPLICATION-SPEED and the macro WITH-COMPLICATION-UNIT - both very useful
2020-12-26T10:31:33Z phoe: it is also good to know that dpANS discusses this topic in depth - it has a whole chapter dedicated to Evaluation and Complication, where complication semantics are precisely defined
2020-12-26T10:33:11Z phoe: among other things, it mentions e.g. that «The term "implicit complication" refers to complication performed during evaluation.»
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2020-12-26T11:12:27Z contrapunctus: phoe: lol
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2020-12-26T11:21:49Z edgar-rft: that's good news for poeple who feel that Common Lisp is not complicated enough
2020-12-26T11:25:34Z phoe: yes
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2020-12-26T11:30:13Z nij: I'm impressed by this post (https://leancrew.com/all-this/2011/12/more-shell-less-egg/) and wonder if I can take more out from the UNIX utilities..
2020-12-26T11:30:44Z nij: This makes me wonder if there are nicer alternatives (of unix utils) in lisp.
2020-12-26T11:31:53Z phoe: if that is what you're asking, you can do the above via #'compose, #'curry, and #'rcurry and other Lisp functions
2020-12-26T11:32:56Z phoe: Lisp is not a language where everything is a stream of text, though, so it would be more verbose than the shell script mentioned in the article
2020-12-26T11:33:57Z nij: I see.
2020-12-26T11:34:20Z phoe: but it's possible to produce such "pipes" via curry/rcurry/compose rather easily
2020-12-26T11:35:02Z phoe: you can also use an arrow macro as syntax sugar for your piping
2020-12-26T11:35:19Z phoe: like, a diamond arrow will make it unnecessary to use curry/rcurry/compose
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2020-12-26T11:36:25Z nij: How about uniq, tr, sort..?
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2020-12-26T11:36:35Z phoe: lisp functions for those
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2020-12-26T11:36:48Z phoe: #'remove-duplicates, #'sort, etc..
2020-12-26T11:37:00Z phoe: I don't think there's a built-in replacement for tr
2020-12-26T11:37:18Z phoe: oh wait
2020-12-26T11:37:35Z nij: Pattern match + transform
2020-12-26T11:37:41Z phoe: you replace stuff with newlines... you can use split-sequence:split-sequence-if-not #'alpha-char-p for that
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2020-12-26T11:40:54Z edgar-rft: has anybody noticed that the shell script traverses the entire list 5 times in only 6 lines of code? nobody would pay you anything for such a shitty performance
2020-12-26T11:41:19Z phoe: of course they would pay you
2020-12-26T11:41:24Z phoe: it's called unix system administration
2020-12-26T11:42:14Z edgar-rft: run that script on the oxford dictionary and see how long it takes
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2020-12-26T11:52:26Z nij: edgar-rft: good point xD
2020-12-26T11:53:51Z nij: edgar-rft: That could be a reason why I'm looking for a lisp variant..
2020-12-26T11:55:24Z Alfr_: edgar-rft, tr linear, sort n log n, uniq linear, sed number of arguments. It'll likely take less than a minute on a ten year old machine.
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2020-12-26T12:37:19Z edgar-rft: Alfr_: even if every traversal is linear it's minimum 5 times too slow because only 1 traversal is needed to get the desired result.
2020-12-26T12:37:47Z ck_: phoe already said it, but to expand, it's unix system administration /job security/ :)
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2020-12-26T12:39:22Z edgar-rft: yes, but that answer misses the point of said article
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2020-12-26T12:40:17Z ck_: have you read the Unix Hater's Handbook?
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2020-12-26T12:41:18Z edgar-rft: yes :-)
2020-12-26T12:42:28Z ck_: enough said then, I think ;)
2020-12-26T12:43:29Z nij: I didn't and I should.
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2020-12-26T12:45:08Z beach: I avoided reading it for the longest time, thinking it was written by disgruntled IBM mainframe users, but it is very good and it is written by people who know what they are talking about, because they saw the better systems that preceded Unix.
2020-12-26T12:45:35Z nij: Wow full of hate!
2020-12-26T12:45:41Z beach: And now it is freely available online, so there is no excuse not to read it.
2020-12-26T12:45:43Z nij: I'm thinking of avoiding reading it too.
2020-12-26T12:45:59Z nij: Is it just hate or is there any proposed solution?
2020-12-26T12:46:13Z beach: The solutions existed when Unix was created.
2020-12-26T12:46:21Z nij: ?! which is?
2020-12-26T12:46:26Z beach: They describe those better ways.
2020-12-26T12:46:37Z beach: Twenex, ITS, Multics, Genera.
2020-12-26T12:46:40Z lotuseater: is the book enjoyable to read?
2020-12-26T12:46:47Z beach: Very much.
2020-12-26T12:47:21Z lotuseater: yes i found it via a simple search :)
2020-12-26T12:48:58Z ck_: It's deprecating but very humorous, I would call it realistic in the best way possible
2020-12-26T12:49:12Z nij: beach: should I go back and use those.. multics, genera..?
2020-12-26T12:49:49Z ck_: nij: you can go back in time? take me with you.
2020-12-26T12:49:55Z beach: nij: That would be hard (but not impossible).  And no, they have not kept up with things like GUIs and such.
2020-12-26T12:50:34Z nij: :(
2020-12-26T12:50:41Z nij: So what's a practical solution if any?
2020-12-26T12:50:52Z phoe: solution for what exactly
2020-12-26T12:50:54Z ck_: please remind me, practical solution to what problem?
2020-12-26T12:51:00Z lotuseater: those headers for chapters in the table of contents are funny :D
2020-12-26T12:51:15Z phoe: lotuseater: they would have been funny if they weren't so sad
2020-12-26T12:51:53Z lotuseater: ok how do you mean exactly?
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2020-12-26T12:52:47Z nij: I mean.. given that UNIX is so bad.. what should I do?
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2020-12-26T12:53:24Z ck_: be glad, because it could be worse
2020-12-26T12:53:26Z phoe: lotuseater: the existence of these chapter names hints that there is a reason for their existence, which is that unix had and has its obvious issues that we keep on working around because we can't viably fix them
2020-12-26T12:53:35Z beach: nij: One necessary "solution" would be for universities to hire teachers who are qualified to know that they shouldn't teach the crap they are now teaching, as if it were the greatest possible stuff available.
2020-12-26T12:53:35Z lotuseater: use Linux?
2020-12-26T12:53:37Z phoe: nij: continue using it because all alternatives are worse
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2020-12-26T12:55:49Z ck_: also, if you've never seen genera, watch some videos about it. Here's one good demonstration - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk
2020-12-26T12:56:13Z lotuseater: oh thx ck_
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2020-12-26T12:58:37Z lotuseater: most people seem to value looks and quantity over usefulness and quality
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2020-12-26T12:59:39Z nij: ck_: will do!
2020-12-26T13:00:27Z nij: Well.. if we have a sane Lisp shell.. we can interact with the computer however we like in Lisp.
2020-12-26T13:00:31Z nij: Wouldn't that solve the problems?
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2020-12-26T13:00:38Z phoe: we already do, it's called the REPL :D
2020-12-26T13:01:00Z phoe: the unix shell is not a good generic programming interface though because it's not object-oriented
2020-12-26T13:01:13Z phoe: it has no way of representing complex structure othen than via text, a stream of bytes
2020-12-26T13:01:35Z phoe: even Windows PowerShell is more capable than that nowadays
2020-12-26T13:01:47Z nij: yeah! that's what I'm hoping for :D
2020-12-26T13:02:00Z nij: And I do remember your way, phoe
2020-12-26T13:02:16Z nij: aka to have a Lisp repl on all time. I hope I can master that soon in my life.
2020-12-26T13:02:46Z ck_: "master" and "soon" don't often occur in the same sentence. Good Luck!
2020-12-26T13:02:52Z phoe: it's not about mastering
2020-12-26T13:03:04Z phoe: just keep your emacs window always open and keep your slime repl buffer somewhere in there
2020-12-26T13:03:23Z nij: ck_: haha yeah
2020-12-26T13:03:24Z lotuseater: nij: even when you program stuff with McCLIM you have a REPL in default
2020-12-26T13:03:57Z nij: phoe: I need to get out of my comfort zone as the bashism has "worked" for me. I have to forget them and learn the alternatives.
2020-12-26T13:04:15Z nij: It'd be nice if some tutorial teaches how to use the Lisp way to talk to my machine.
2020-12-26T13:04:54Z ck_: nij: there's a section in the Unix Hater's Handbook about that, too. It features a story by Jamie Zawinski, on how he tried to perform a task with bash but then "came to his senses" (is I think the quote) and wrote some emacs lisp code to do it
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2020-12-26T13:12:52Z nij: ck_: still looking for that section @@
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2020-12-26T13:15:04Z beach: nij: Unfortunately courses and text books on software-related subjects limit themselves to describing some technique without having an opinion as to whether it is good or bad, nor whether there are better alternatives.  The reason for this dismal state of things is that authors and teachers are largely incompetent.
2020-12-26T13:16:12Z nij: In academics each judgement needs to be made inside a framework.
2020-12-26T13:16:29Z beach: nij: Take Tanenbaum and Bos "Modern Operating Systems" that claim that an OS can't be written in a language with automatic memory management.  Or that has a description of "processes" without telling us why it was invented or what disadvantages processes have.
2020-12-26T13:16:35Z nij: In our case we need a framework/theory that helps judge which is good and which is bad.
2020-12-26T13:17:48Z beach: nij: Knowledge of the domain being taught or written about would be a good start.
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2020-12-26T13:22:47Z ck_: nij: page 167.
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2020-12-26T13:42:53Z nij: I think I'm using a different version @@
2020-12-26T13:46:23Z nij: Haha I see. It doesn't say how the work is done in elisp.. just says it could be done.
2020-12-26T13:47:29Z ck_: well, the task in question is pretty trivial, how bash needs to spawn additional processes for each entry of some list of filenames is the point of the story
2020-12-26T13:48:19Z nij: How would you do this in lisp?
2020-12-26T13:49:10Z beach: You don't spawn a process for each function executed in Common Lisp.
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2020-12-26T13:49:13Z beach: Luckily.
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2020-12-26T13:50:23Z nij: Oh. You just spawn one process that reads a list of strings, and then start manipulating the strings?
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2020-12-26T13:51:32Z beach: nij: Your entire session, from when you start your Lisp system to when you exit it, is one single process.
2020-12-26T13:51:42Z beach: Luckily.
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2020-12-26T18:20:29Z contrapunctus: Has anyone tried setting "qq " as an Emacs abbrev for "(ql:quickload :|)"? (with | being the cursor) I got it to work in lisp-mode buffers, but not in slime-repl-mode.
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2020-12-26T18:23:50Z contrapunctus: This is what I have at the moment - http://ix.io/2JDj/elisp
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2020-12-26T19:27:02Z oni-on-ion: slime has its own shortcut things, with ','
2020-12-26T19:27:08Z oni-on-ion: you may need to add it there ?
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2020-12-26T19:48:46Z pve: contrapunctus: All my slime-repl abbrevs have ended up in fundamental-mode-abbrev-table for some reason. Perhaps a better way would be to somehow enable the abbrevs in slime-repl-mode-hook...
2020-12-26T19:50:13Z pve: hm it looks like your code might be doing something like that already
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2020-12-26T21:24:18Z phoe: hmmm
2020-12-26T21:24:49Z phoe: I am trying to write down some practices when it comes to validating slot values for instances
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2020-12-26T21:25:22Z phoe: in face of multiple inheritance, too
2020-12-26T21:25:28Z phoe: and how to best minimize the amount of resulting code
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2020-12-26T21:26:37Z phoe: option one is applying proper logic to writer methods and in the Four Horsemen of SHARED-INITIALIZE
2020-12-26T21:26:57Z phoe: option two is applying some validation logic in the slots themselves
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2020-12-26T21:28:30Z mseddon: after personally failing with #2 forever, I'd pick #1, although that is naturally going to be a performance tank.
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2020-12-26T21:29:16Z phoe: option one generates a lot of boilerplate code, but option two gives no easy way to perform cross-slot validation logic
2020-12-26T21:29:49Z mseddon: that's my issue with #2, you have this little sea of logic that can easily be made inconsistent
2020-12-26T21:31:13Z mseddon: I guess it's about how much and what you want to validate
2020-12-26T21:31:23Z phoe: my issue with #1 is that a lot of boilerplate is required to make e.g. MAKE-INSTANCE slot validation
2020-12-26T21:32:17Z mseddon: yeah, but there are many simple problems that fit trivially into #2, it's just that #1 can become arbitrarily complicated. You need to set yourself some upper bound I think.
2020-12-26T21:32:27Z phoe: basically, inside :AROUND or primary method, you need to manually reconstruct the keyword argument list and explicitly APPLY #'CALL-NEXT-METHOD on it to prevent the incorrect values from being propagated deeper into the instantiation
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2020-12-26T21:32:55Z mseddon: right. that's even scarier
2020-12-26T21:33:04Z phoe: :BEFORE breaks restarts and :AFTER is too late in the instantiation process
2020-12-26T21:33:17Z mseddon: ah whammers and whoppers. always a bit weird imo
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2020-12-26T21:34:32Z mseddon: imo, in lisp I'm less scared of boilerplate. since I can abstract it.
2020-12-26T21:34:51Z mseddon: but I'm guessing you've found some nasty edge cases that aren't easily defmacro'd away?
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2020-12-26T21:36:58Z phoe: I'm currently looking for the best ways to solve it before I write my macros
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2020-12-26T21:41:16Z mseddon: ah right.  yeah, that game is definitely harder.
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2020-12-26T21:41:48Z mseddon: I mean, surely, validation is quite an open ended problem, both in solutions and your appetite for precision.
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2020-12-26T21:43:10Z mseddon: since I'm assuming you don't need to show that a given STRING can be eval'd and terminate.
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2020-12-26T21:59:04Z puchacz: hi, bt:condition-wait / bt:condition-notify question please. in Java the pattern is always to notifyAll() which wakes up all waiting threads. then they can check in unspecified order: is it for me?
2020-12-26T21:59:33Z puchacz: how do I do it in Lisp? there are threads waiting to run a lambda, and only one of them will have its lambda on the top of the queue.
2020-12-26T22:00:09Z puchacz: the bordeaux manual says it is guaranteed to wake up at least one thread
2020-12-26T22:00:49Z puchacz: in my case the thread may check - is it my lambda at the top of the queue? no, then I will keep waiting.
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2020-12-26T22:05:53Z puchacz: actually I know :)
2020-12-26T22:06:23Z puchacz: upon waking up, re-check the condition and if not fulfilled, wake up / notify another thread....
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2020-12-26T22:06:38Z puchacz: but - the thread I want to wake up may never be notified
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2020-12-26T22:09:22Z phoe: wait a second
2020-12-26T22:09:29Z phoe: there is a specific thread that you want to wake up?
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2020-12-26T22:09:51Z phoe: hmmmm, this doesn't look like the proper use of condition variables
2020-12-26T22:10:15Z phoe: like, if you have N threads waiting on a single condition variable, and one of these threads is somehow "special", then it should have its own condition variable
2020-12-26T22:10:39Z phoe: from the point of view of a single CV, all threads waiting on that CV are equivalent
2020-12-26T22:11:00Z phoe: if your thread architecture violates this assumption then your thread architecture might be in trouble
2020-12-26T22:12:01Z puchacz: phoe - I have 2 queues, :interactive and :background. when the lambda finishes, I want to notify thread that has its lambda on the top of the interactive queue, if none, then top of background queue
2020-12-26T22:12:25Z puchacz: it seems that every lambda I put on the queue must be paired with its own condition variable
2020-12-26T22:12:38Z phoe: you have queues of threads?
2020-12-26T22:12:57Z phoe: or rather, these functions are pre-assigned to threads?
2020-12-26T22:13:06Z puchacz: queues of lambdas, so threads that put these lambdas on the queue have to wait
2020-12-26T22:13:36Z phoe: okay - why not wake up a random thread and have that thread try-pop a function from the queue then?
2020-12-26T22:13:37Z puchacz: it is for sqlite access, which is capable of only one transaction that writes.
2020-12-26T22:14:00Z phoe: if any other threads wake up, then they'll find an empty queue and go back to sleep
2020-12-26T22:14:50Z puchacz: phoe - I think you are thinking of a pool of executors, where it does not matter which thread executes any given lambda
2020-12-26T22:15:06Z phoe: yes
2020-12-26T22:15:32Z phoe: if you have a single writer thread, and only it is allowed to execute writes, then it should be a single thread possibly waiting on a single CV
2020-12-26T22:15:45Z puchacz: any thread can write, but only one at a time
2020-12-26T22:16:02Z phoe: it seems you want no CV, you want a lock
2020-12-26T22:16:35Z puchacz: I have a lock so the 2 queues are protected
2020-12-26T22:16:47Z phoe: you want a lock for your sqlite
2020-12-26T22:16:59Z puchacz: not needed
2020-12-26T22:17:01Z phoe: so only at most one thread has the capability to write at a given time
2020-12-26T22:17:30Z puchacz: I also want first-in, first-out, and interactive threads to be served before background threads.
2020-12-26T22:17:41Z puchacz: so I have 2 queues
2020-12-26T22:18:02Z phoe: ohhh. yes, this complicates things - you have some kind of prioritization going on.
2020-12-26T22:18:14Z puchacz: a very simple prioritisation
2020-12-26T22:18:54Z phoe: anything with more than one priority won't be served well by a single lock
2020-12-26T22:20:13Z puchacz: the :background type thread puts itself into :background queue and executes WHILE loop that waits till (and (:interactive queue is empty) (:background queue has this thread's lambda at the top))
2020-12-26T22:20:51Z puchacz: whereas :interactive type thread has this WHILE loop that checks only if (:interactive queue has this thread's lambda) at the top
2020-12-26T22:20:56Z puchacz: so very simple prioritisation
2020-12-26T22:21:18Z phoe: hmmmm
2020-12-26T22:21:34Z phoe: why not actually have a single dedicated writer thread though?
2020-12-26T22:21:35Z puchacz: every time lambda finishes, I grab the queues guarding lock again, and I wanted to notifyAll() like in Java :)
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2020-12-26T22:22:04Z puchacz: because I would still have to juggle priorities and do some sort of join
2020-12-26T22:22:15Z phoe: this writer thread can perform this logic
2020-12-26T22:22:19Z puchacz: you see these threads proceed when they are done with sqlite
2020-12-26T22:22:35Z phoe: oh! you need them to block until the given piece of work is done...
2020-12-26T22:22:39Z puchacz: yes
2020-12-26T22:22:58Z phoe: this does sound kinda like like per-thread condition variables
2020-12-26T22:23:00Z puchacz: so if I enqueue (cons threads-lambda threads-condition-variable) it may work
2020-12-26T22:23:03Z phoe: at least I cannot think of anything better
2020-12-26T22:23:07Z phoe: yes, something like that
2020-12-26T22:23:20Z puchacz: if I had Java's notifyAll(), I would be done by now :)
2020-12-26T22:23:34Z puchacz: just wake them all up, and the right one will continue
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2020-12-26T22:25:23Z puchacz: okay, I will try to create condition variables on demand and enqueue them. I take they will be garbage collected, nothing fancy like "reserving OS resource" happening behind the scene?
2020-12-26T22:26:36Z puchacz: ok, no worries - nothing like that in the manual
2020-12-26T22:27:07Z puchacz: so thanks for per thread CV suggestion :)
2020-12-26T22:27:40Z phoe: I guess they're normally collected
2020-12-26T22:31:31Z fe[nl]ix: puchacz: bordeaux-threads apiv2 has a condition-broadcast operation
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2020-12-26T22:35:06Z puchacz: fe[nl]ix - thanks, checking that
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2020-12-26T22:36:42Z puchacz: err, is it available?
2020-12-26T22:37:14Z fe[nl]ix: in git
2020-12-26T22:37:47Z puchacz: ok, thanks.
2020-12-26T22:38:17Z puchacz: saves me the trouble of creating condition variables and importantly, choosing the right one to notify :)
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2020-12-27T01:33:03Z KREYREEN: they said lisp is going to make a better developer~
2020-12-27T01:33:07Z KREYREEN: https://i.imgur.com/9XKGx8Q.png they were right
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2020-12-27T03:18:25Z solideogloria[m]: what lisp is that 👀
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2020-12-27T04:03:33Z beach:  Good morning everyone!
2020-12-27T04:04:26Z luni: good morning beach
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2020-12-27T04:26:00Z solideogloria[m]: does anyone know why the p in `typep` in common lisp ?
2020-12-27T04:26:13Z charles`: predicate
2020-12-27T04:26:15Z beach: "predicate"
2020-12-27T04:26:29Z solideogloria[m]: ah got it
2020-12-27T04:27:42Z beach: The Paris transit authority is named RATP and I have a tendency to pronounce it RAT-P, and think of it as a predicate to determine whether some object is a rat.
2020-12-27T04:28:26Z beach: Though I suppose "rat pee" would be interesting as well.
2020-12-27T04:28:32Z charles`: how do normal people say it?
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2020-12-27T04:28:47Z beach: err ahhh the peh
2020-12-27T04:29:03Z beach: err ahh teh peh I mean.
2020-12-27T04:29:51Z charles`: waste of syllables if you ask me.
2020-12-27T04:29:57Z beach: Indeed.
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2020-12-27T04:34:12Z beach: Languages seem to favor oscillations in brevity though.  In French "Que est ce" (what is that) became "qu'est-ce" and then "qu'est-ce que c'est" (what is that, that it is) and now "qu'est-ce que c'est que ça" (what is that, that it is, that there)
2020-12-27T04:34:52Z beach: Off topic, so I'll stop now.
2020-12-27T04:35:27Z charles`: Basically macros
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2020-12-27T04:37:10Z beach: Oh, one more.  In French, you can say "qu'en faire" (what to do with it), but in one TV commercial a woman said "Qu'est-ce que je dois faire, moi, de ça là maintenant" (what is it that I must do, me, with that there now).
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2020-12-27T05:30:58Z contrapunctus: « The Paris transit authority is named RATP » 😂
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2020-12-27T08:15:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, is using LOAD-TIME-VALUE as a cache a good idea?
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2020-12-27T08:16:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have a function that makes an HTTP request to one of several slow-changing endpoints, and I'm thinking of using L-T-V to create a hash-table and then storing the result of the http request in the hashtable.
2020-12-27T08:16:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Aside from infinite memory growth, are there any downsides with this?
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2020-12-27T10:37:52Z solideogloria[m]: is there any libXft library in common lisp ?
2020-12-27T10:37:58Z solideogloria[m]: CLX doesn't have libXft
2020-12-27T10:38:53Z solideogloria[m]: basically is there any way to use fontconfig fonts with CLX
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2020-12-27T10:40:54Z solideogloria[m]: or does CLX have some internal way of managing fonts ?
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2020-12-27T10:43:45Z solideogloria[m]: oh nvm my ignorance
2020-12-27T10:46:42Z beach: solideogloria[m]: You may want to ask these questions to the kind people in #clim who know a lot about stuff like that.
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2020-12-27T12:11:40Z phoe: hmmmm
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2020-12-27T12:27:51Z VincentVega: Hi guys! symbolicate produces a symbol in the current package, but I need another package (e.g. (symbolicate 'alexandria:fact 'orial) gives an error), how can I do that?
2020-12-27T12:32:27Z phoe: (let ((*package* (find-package ...))) (a:symbolicate ...))
2020-12-27T12:33:58Z VincentVega: phoe: oh, wait, i think ensure-symbol is what i need
2020-12-27T12:34:17Z VincentVega: phoe: tnx tho!
2020-12-27T12:35:20Z phoe: ensure-symbol has slightly different semantics
2020-12-27T12:35:38Z phoe: symbolicate concats the symbol name for you; ensure-symbol doesn't
2020-12-27T12:35:42Z phoe: but, yeah, whatever works
2020-12-27T12:36:46Z VincentVega: i just used them like (ensure-symbol (symbolicate ...)), but yep
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2020-12-27T12:44:26Z phoe: uhhhh... that's likely not what you want
2020-12-27T12:44:42Z phoe: SYMBOLICATE might end up interning one symbol, ENSURE-SYMBOL - another one
2020-12-27T12:44:44Z phoe: two symbols in total
2020-12-27T12:45:37Z VincentVega: hmm true
2020-12-27T12:47:29Z VincentVega: guess will go with your code then
2020-12-27T12:47:59Z phoe: a:symbolicate has no means of specifying the package because of its &rest lambda list
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2020-12-27T12:48:08Z phoe: hence you need to explicitly rebind *package*
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2020-12-27T12:49:13Z VincentVega: gotcha
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2020-12-27T21:13:18Z antonv: in a CL wrapper for a C library, how it's better to name constants corresponding to C constants, upcase or lowcased?
2020-12-27T21:13:33Z phoe: antonv: kebab-case
2020-12-27T21:13:41Z antonv: I mean what is frendlier for a library user
2020-12-27T21:13:49Z phoe: if a C constant is FOO_BAR_BAZ then the corresponding CL constant would be +foo-bar-baz+
2020-12-27T21:14:12Z phoe: which gets upcased by the reader into +FOO-BAR-BAZ+ anyway
2020-12-27T21:14:27Z antonv: not any way, as you know
2020-12-27T21:14:44Z phoe: yes, but I don't really think that |+foo-bar-baz+| is worth it just for the downcased variant
2020-12-27T21:14:55Z antonv: sure
2020-12-27T21:15:46Z antonv: why kebab-case is frendlier?
2020-12-27T21:15:47Z jackdaniel: imo naming it exactly how the constant is named in C world (with the case preserved) is better, because it clearly shows that the variable is foreign (and that's how wrappers should be seen)
2020-12-27T21:16:07Z phoe: antonv: more lispy - but then there's the argument that jackdaniel made
2020-12-27T21:16:14Z antonv: jackdaniel: you mean literaly FOO_BAR_BAZ?
2020-12-27T21:16:17Z jackdaniel: if someone wants to use such wrapper, they may come up with a more transparent interface
2020-12-27T21:16:17Z antonv: in lisp?
2020-12-27T21:16:39Z jackdaniel: antonv: yes, that's how *I* would approach the problem (if it is 1-to-1 mapping)
2020-12-27T21:17:02Z antonv: even no +FOO_BAR_BAZ+ ?
2020-12-27T21:17:07Z jackdaniel: however if you write a library which only uses the ffi lib, then you should use lisp names
2020-12-27T21:17:22Z jackdaniel: yeah; that's my opinion on the matter
2020-12-27T21:17:36Z jackdaniel: s/lisp names/lispy names/
2020-12-27T21:18:13Z jackdaniel: i.e cl-charms (at least in principle) provides two interfaces: low-level and high-level, I think that the former preserves names verbatim from ncurses
2020-12-27T21:18:26Z jackdaniel: but I didn't check right now, so I may be wrong
2020-12-27T21:19:07Z jackdaniel: (that is - constants names)
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2020-12-27T21:20:13Z jackdaniel: as a bonus point: it makes easier to lookup symbols in the librarie's source code
2020-12-27T21:21:06Z antonv: I am thinking to exporort some of the constants defined by cl+ssl, https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/blob/master/src/ffi.lisp#L227
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2020-12-27T21:21:54Z jackdaniel: I think that you already ahve somewhat estabilished convention
2020-12-27T21:22:25Z antonv: it's not universally followd in the soruce codd, and so far it's not exported
2020-12-27T21:22:26Z jackdaniel: so I wouldn't change that (naming while a hard problem in general is a minor detail in many cases)
2020-12-27T21:23:19Z jackdaniel: I've got to go -- if you are going to add +foo+ (pluses), I'd use kebab-case, if you want to preserve names verbatim, I'd skip ++
2020-12-27T21:23:23Z jackdaniel: good night \o
2020-12-27T21:23:35Z antonv: My concern is to make it less likely for library users to write code that works with classic reader, but fail in other cases
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2020-12-27T21:23:53Z antonv: good night, thank you
2020-12-27T21:25:24Z Alfr: antonv, lower case your names then. I think it's less likely that people write lisp all upcased.
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2020-12-27T21:28:05Z antonv: Interesting that the defpackage already mentions the same constants using lower case: https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/blob/master/src/package.lisp
2020-12-27T21:28:55Z phoe: these get upcased anyway
2020-12-27T21:29:09Z phoe: I can say that because this code won't compile on any other readtable case setting
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2020-12-27T21:30:46Z antonv: it does compile
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2020-12-27T21:31:04Z antonv: maybe just exports different symbols than the constants
2020-12-27T21:31:34Z phoe: you're using :invert, right?
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2020-12-27T21:32:18Z phoe: in this case, hmmmmm, I stand corrected - it'll compile, but it'll export different symbols
2020-12-27T21:32:40Z antonv: yes
2020-12-27T21:35:19Z phoe: Which documentation type is used for conditions? TYPE, like for classes?
2020-12-27T21:35:31Z phoe: hm, I guess, yes
2020-12-27T21:35:36Z phoe: it's named a condition *type* after all
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2020-12-27T21:37:00Z antonv: Is that a valid code?
2020-12-27T21:37:02Z antonv: (defconstant +SSL-OP-ALL+ #x80000BFF)
2020-12-27T21:37:02Z antonv: (defconstant +ssl-op-all+ +SSL-OP-ALL+)
2020-12-27T21:37:05Z antonv:  
2020-12-27T21:38:02Z antonv: in the classic reader mode the constant is defined second time by referring itself
2020-12-27T21:38:26Z phoe: yes, but I wouldn't write anything like that, because, depending on the readtable setting, this defines either one or two constants
2020-12-27T21:39:16Z phoe: if anything, I'd explicitly (defconstant |+SSL-OP-ALL+| ...) and (defconstant |+ssl-op-all+| ...) which is unambiguous case-wise and always defines two distinct constants
2020-12-27T21:39:20Z antonv: I was thinking that for backward compatibility
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2020-12-27T21:39:47Z antonv: ah, in this sense
2020-12-27T21:39:49Z antonv: good point
2020-12-27T21:42:39Z antonv: Slime completion always suggests lower case name, even when orignally in the source code it is upcased, so yes, if I leave them upcased people are more likely to write code that fails in a non-classic reader mode
2020-12-27T21:44:05Z antonv: On the other hand the upcased ones really make it clear that they are C constant conterparts
2020-12-27T21:44:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: How many people use a :preserve or :lower readtable?
2020-12-27T21:44:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've always treated that as a "if it breaks, you get to keep both pieces" situation
2020-12-27T21:45:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you want to use such a readtable, I'd use something like named-readtables to select a readtable on a file-by-file basis
2020-12-27T21:48:12Z antonv: fiddlerwoaroof: what I'm am thinking about is the Allegro Modern Mode: https://franz.com/support/tech_corner/modern.mode.lhtml
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2020-12-27T21:50:34Z phoe: modern mode is a minefield e.g. when it comes to asdf:test-system
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2020-12-27T21:51:05Z phoe: lots of those systems use (uiop:symbol-call "FOO" "BAR") to implement calls into the respective frameworks
2020-12-27T21:51:41Z phoe: other pieces of code that call INTERN with literal string arguments also break this way.
2020-12-27T21:52:38Z phoe: these could be patched to use (uiop:symbol-call (string '#:foo) (string '#:bar)) but that's both more verbose and very hard to fix everywhere
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2020-12-27T21:53:50Z antonv: Another way is (funcall (read-from-string "foo:bar"))
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2020-12-27T21:54:20Z phoe: yes
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2020-12-27T21:54:42Z aeth: My message that apparently didn't send...
2020-12-27T21:54:47Z aeth: If anyone wants to pad their résumé... Go through every system in Quicklisp and replace all instances of "FOO" with (symbol-name '#:foo) or sometimes #.(symbol-name '#:foo) and now everything will be modern-mode-compatible.
2020-12-27T21:55:34Z aeth: READ-FROM-STRING almost certainly won't be optimized. STRING might be optimized. SYMBOL-NAME on a constant like that should certainly be optimized in my situation, though.
2020-12-27T21:56:13Z phoe: it can't be naïvely optimized to a compile-time operation because package FOO may not exist at compile-time
2020-12-27T21:56:26Z phoe: the compiler would need to special-case such situation
2020-12-27T21:56:50Z aeth: No, but SBCL certainly optimizes (symbol-name '#:foo) because I tested it before replacing all of my #.(symbol-name '#:foo) with (symbol-name '#:foo)
2020-12-27T21:56:58Z aeth: Unless it regressed.
2020-12-27T21:57:06Z aeth: it's a very low hanging fruit
2020-12-27T21:57:07Z phoe: oh, yes - that's all constant
2020-12-27T21:57:19Z phoe: I mean, '#:foo is a literal, and symbol-name is a pure function
2020-12-27T21:57:38Z aeth: If you're concerned about a loss in performance in some really slow implementations (like e.g. CLISP), then you could do #. though
2020-12-27T21:57:51Z antonv: is CLISP slow?
2020-12-27T21:57:52Z phoe: so this can 100% get compile-time-folded into just "FOO" or "foo" - depends on the readtable case when the literal symbol is read
2020-12-27T21:57:59Z aeth: antonv: The slowest.
2020-12-27T21:58:22Z aeth: phoe: right
2020-12-27T21:59:07Z aeth: I might have accidentally left a few old-style string literals, but all of my code should use (symbol-name '#:foo) now, except in the rare cases where #.(symbol-name '#:foo) is required. As of a few years ago iirc.
2020-12-27T21:59:35Z aeth: It's a lot easier to find than you might think because it's only really needed for doing clever things in macros with symbol names.
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2020-12-27T23:25:50Z Xach: the slowest?
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2020-12-27T23:42:26Z lonjil: Does anyone have opinions on the points made in this article? http://kazimirmajorinc.com/Documents/On-Pitmans-Special-forms-in-Lisp/index.html
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2020-12-27T23:49:31Z aeth: Xach: on any benchmarks I've seen (though most are very old at this point)... although, admittedly, I don't think any benchmark has tested every single CL implementation
2020-12-27T23:49:56Z Xach: aeth: i would guess abcl would be slower overall, but that is guess and not measurement
2020-12-27T23:50:13Z aeth: The caveat for CLISP performance would be *except with bignums.
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2020-12-27T23:50:29Z Xach: user-written code in clisp is a lot slower than using built-in functions or modules written in C
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2020-12-27T23:52:27Z aeth: You might be right about ABCL being the slowest. https://cliki.net/Performance%20Benchmarks
2020-12-27T23:52:48Z aeth: Very old benchmarks, though
2020-12-27T23:53:10Z aeth: Pentium 4, Pentium 3...
2020-12-27T23:53:35Z aeth: SBCL 0.8.13... At this point, you might as well just guess because it's going to be so out of date...
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2020-12-28T01:25:00Z antonv: phoe: maybe modern mode is not a minefield, other way around, classic mode is a minefield, we just have a shifted perspective
2020-12-28T01:25:35Z antonv: modern mode is more straightforward - symols are named exactly as written
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2020-12-28T02:04:12Z thmprover: Say, are there any good references on *implementing* Common Lisp?
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2020-12-28T02:06:55Z Xach: thmprover: common lisp specifically, no. but Lisp in Small Pieces and Anatomy of Lisp both get into some pretty detailed nuts and bolts of lisp compilation.
2020-12-28T02:07:25Z Xach: there is a detailed document on the implementation of cmucl i believe
2020-12-28T02:07:26Z Lycurgus: use the source luke
2020-12-28T02:07:39Z thmprover: I do like LiSP, I'll lookup "Anatomy of Lisp"
2020-12-28T02:08:33Z Xach: i think frodef used Anatomy of Lisp to implement movitz's compiler
2020-12-28T02:08:43Z Xach: you might ask froggey what he used for mezzano
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2020-12-28T02:10:56Z thmprover: The 122 page document "Design of CMU CL" by Robert MacLachlan, is that the one you're referring to, Xach?
2020-12-28T02:11:20Z Xach: thmprover: yes
2020-12-28T02:11:32Z thmprover: Awesome, thanks :)
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2020-12-28T02:12:33Z Xach: https://www.amazon.com/Performance-Evaluation-Systems-Richard-Gabriel/dp/B01B99O15K has thumbnail sketches about implementation details of a variety of lisp systems, but it predates common lisp as we know it
2020-12-28T02:13:10Z Xach: it's available for a few dollars on abebooks and possibly elsewhere.
2020-12-28T02:14:00Z thmprover: That's interesting, I'll add it to my reading list
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2020-12-28T04:01:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-12-28T04:06:09Z thmprover: Good morning beach!
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2020-12-28T04:16:29Z beach: thmprover: If you are interested in how Common Lisp is implemented, we have regular discussions in #sicl, and you are welcome to participate.
2020-12-28T04:16:53Z beach: ... participate and ask questions.
2020-12-28T04:20:21Z beach: thmprover: Mostly, Common Lisp is a fairly ordinary language from the point of view of compilation.  Other aspects are not so ordinary, like how CLOS is implemented.
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2020-12-28T04:30:18Z p_l: outside of some "rarer" features like multiple returns, which complicate calling conventions (unless one runs on MMIX), everything else is optimization question
2020-12-28T04:31:04Z beach: Right.  There are some quirks like that.  Otherwise, the hard part is making it all fast.
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2020-12-28T04:41:56Z thmprover: beach: cool, that sounds like what I'm after.
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2020-12-28T05:47:58Z ldbeth: good afternnon
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2020-12-28T05:49:51Z beach: Hello ldbeth.
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2020-12-28T06:38:44Z lotuseater: beach: do i need my acc to be registered for joining #sicl?
2020-12-28T06:39:56Z beach: lotuseater: I have no idea.
2020-12-28T06:40:43Z ck_: lotuseater: yes, you do
2020-12-28T06:40:52Z beach: ck_: Thanks!
2020-12-28T06:41:08Z beach needs a channel administrator. 
2020-12-28T06:41:17Z lotuseater: ok, my client didn't respond so explicit
2020-12-28T06:41:29Z ck_: ( if you /mode #sicl, you'll see it is mode 'r' among others, compare with https://freenode.net/kb/answer/channelmodes )
2020-12-28T06:41:45Z ck_: beach: does that channel need much administering?
2020-12-28T06:43:02Z beach: ck_: No, not usually.  But last night there was a long discussion that I didn't appreciate at all.  It would have been enough to be firm though, because all the participants are known and frequent.
2020-12-28T06:43:49Z ck_: I see
2020-12-28T06:45:52Z lotuseater: ok I'll think about registering and will ask then if it's ok to join
2020-12-28T06:46:11Z beach: It is always OK to join if you can.
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2020-12-28T08:38:59Z phoe: https://github.com/AccelerationNet/access/blob/8a8259e5c93605e9c68cc697efee71d09d6fc873/access.lisp#L492-L498
2020-12-28T08:39:17Z phoe: Is the (apply '(setf aref) new o (ensure-list k)) call valid?
2020-12-28T08:39:48Z phoe: Or should it contain #'(setf aref) instead?
2020-12-28T08:46:58Z phoe: seems like it's invalid because a list is not a function designator
2020-12-28T08:47:06Z phoe: and APPLY does not accept extended function designators
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2020-12-28T08:50:18Z beach: I think it is valid.
2020-12-28T08:50:55Z beach: Yes, I see what you mean.
2020-12-28T08:51:08Z beach: But that has got to be an omission in the standard.
2020-12-28T08:51:24Z beach: There is absolutely no reason to exclude extended function designators.
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2020-12-28T08:59:33Z phoe: well
2020-12-28T08:59:34Z phoe: (defun (setf foo) (newval) newval) (apply '(setf foo) '(123))
2020-12-28T08:59:42Z phoe: SBCL, CCL, ECL, ABCL all reject this code
2020-12-28T08:59:50Z beach: Interesting.
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2020-12-28T10:12:40Z attila_lendvai: hi
2020-12-28T10:16:53Z phoe: heyy
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2020-12-28T14:36:35Z pfdietz: APPLY takes a function designator, not an extended function designator.
2020-12-28T14:37:04Z pfdietz: Ah that was said already
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2020-12-28T15:16:13Z Xach: i'm testing sbcl HEAD today, i expect a lot of fun new failures
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2020-12-28T15:18:21Z phoe: what new features^Wminor incompatible changes does sbcl HEAD have to cause these failures?
2020-12-28T15:19:17Z jackdaniel: jingle bells, jingle bells, AVER comes to door
2020-12-28T15:19:23Z phoe: :D
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2020-12-28T15:19:51Z pfdietz: Bad :type in class slots is a recent favorite.
2020-12-28T15:20:00Z phoe: that's old by now though
2020-12-28T15:22:23Z phoe: I am thinking new features!
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2020-12-28T15:35:23Z pfdietz: Were any internal sbcl symbols used by user systems removed?
2020-12-28T15:36:19Z phoe: Xach: let us know, for we indulge in unnecessary speculation!
2020-12-28T15:36:50Z jmercouris: NEVER use implementation specific features in your library
2020-12-28T15:37:00Z jmercouris: ALWAYS use a shim library if you must
2020-12-28T15:37:00Z jackdaniel: never say never
2020-12-28T15:37:07Z jmercouris: My World 2.0
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2020-12-28T15:38:02Z jmercouris: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z5-P9v3F8w
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2020-12-28T16:00:42Z jmercouris: how to asdf:load-system with filespec?
2020-12-28T16:00:48Z jmercouris: saying look in this file for this system
2020-12-28T16:01:24Z jmercouris: using central registry I believe is not reccomended
2020-12-28T16:01:31Z jmercouris: I thought it was deprecated or something
2020-12-28T16:02:12Z phoe: load-asd perhaps
2020-12-28T16:02:13Z jackdaniel: (asdf:load-asd "/I/have/read/the/manual.asd") ; you may also use find-system system-name if you configure a registry
2020-12-28T16:02:16Z phoe: and then load-system
2020-12-28T16:02:20Z jackdaniel: described here: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html
2020-12-28T16:02:47Z jmercouris: Right, right
2020-12-28T16:02:48Z jmercouris: thank you
2020-12-28T16:04:00Z Alfr: phoe, on (setf aref): The setf function may simply be undefined, clhs 5.1.1.2 last paragraph. (Though I may have missed an explicit exception for aref.)
2020-12-28T16:05:43Z phoe: there is an explicit exception for aref AFAIR
2020-12-28T16:06:12Z phoe: there's apply exceptions for aref, bit, and sbit AFAIR
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2020-12-28T16:08:23Z pfdietz: For each standardized accessor function F, unless it is explicitly documented otherwise, it is implementation-dependent whether the ability to use an F form as a setf place is implemented by a setf expander or a setf function. Also, it follows from this that it is implementation-dependent whether the name (setf F) is fbound.
2020-12-28T16:08:42Z pfdietz: Which you are referring to
2020-12-28T16:09:20Z Alfr: phoe, you mean 5.1.2.5? That equivalence (mod evaluation order) is only required for user-defined functions.
2020-12-28T16:09:50Z phoe: clhs 5.1.2.5
2020-12-28T16:09:50Z specbot: APPLY Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abe.htm
2020-12-28T16:10:01Z Alfr: phoe, but I suspect any sane implementation would simply define those functions.
2020-12-28T16:10:06Z phoe: oh
2020-12-28T16:10:16Z phoe: ...yes, you are correct
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2020-12-28T16:11:03Z jackdaniel: MeanCL - a new implementations that bites you whenever permissible by the spec
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2020-12-28T16:11:59Z pfdietz: Tough love.  The bruises are for your own good.
2020-12-28T16:12:33Z phoe updates the github issue
2020-12-28T16:12:35Z Alfr: jackdaniel, I'd like such an implementation very much to see how unportable some of my code really is. Got one? :D
2020-12-28T16:12:56Z jmercouris: turn warnings on to the max for SBCL and CCL
2020-12-28T16:13:02Z phoe: suicide lisp, doing something non-conforming deletes your home directory
2020-12-28T16:13:06Z jmercouris: should already reveal quite a few things with the appropriate settings
2020-12-28T16:13:18Z jmercouris: that's what we do in our Nyxt CI
2020-12-28T16:13:29Z jmercouris: its amazing how many people release packages on QL with warnings, blows my mind
2020-12-28T16:13:40Z pfdietz: And without tests.
2020-12-28T16:13:49Z jmercouris: the without tests part is a little bit less mind blowing
2020-12-28T16:13:51Z jackdaniel: Alfr: I don't, but I think that clisp had a "strict" build mode
2020-12-28T16:13:53Z jmercouris: I cannot stand compiler warnings
2020-12-28T16:13:55Z jackdaniel: but I may remember wrong
2020-12-28T16:14:34Z jackdaniel: still it doesn't configure fixnum to be exactly of type (signed-byte 16) I think :)
2020-12-28T16:15:17Z phoe: you want something that bites real hard?
2020-12-28T16:15:29Z jackdaniel: many people i.e specialize generic functions on single-float (or on double-float), however the spec defines only float as a system class
2020-12-28T16:15:32Z pfdietz: Restricting all arrays (including strings) to be length at most 1024 would surely be painful.
2020-12-28T16:15:34Z phoe: grab an implementation that sets ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE-LIMIT to 1024
2020-12-28T16:15:36Z phoe: yes
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2020-12-28T16:16:22Z Alfr: jackdaniel, will try messing w/ warning some time, thanks.
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2020-12-28T16:16:49Z jackdaniel: warnings will only give you your own screwups, they are not about strictness wrt conformance
2020-12-28T16:17:00Z jackdaniel: also you probably want to thank jmercouris, I did not suggest that
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2020-12-28T16:17:37Z jmercouris: I think some warnings might show non conformance
2020-12-28T16:17:38Z pfdietz: Also, all the code that does something like (apply #'append <list>) on lists of length > 50.
2020-12-28T16:17:42Z jmercouris: never tried it explicitly though
2020-12-28T16:17:46Z phoe: yes
2020-12-28T16:18:26Z pfdietz: Code that assumes that for fixnums EQ and EQL mean the same thing.
2020-12-28T16:18:31Z phoe: actually
2020-12-28T16:18:41Z phoe: pfdietz: ABCL has call-arguments-limit at 50
2020-12-28T16:18:55Z jackdaniel: some people have an impression, that bignums can be arbitrarily big, however it is only said, that there is no limit on the magnitute of an integer -- I *think* that it would be conforming to signal a storage condition on (1+ most-positive-fixnum) :-)
2020-12-28T16:19:06Z phoe: jackdaniel: :D
2020-12-28T16:19:08Z jackdaniel: of course it would be outraging to do so
2020-12-28T16:19:11Z Alfr: jackdaniel, yeah good point and damn completions.
2020-12-28T16:19:19Z phoe: you people are awful
2020-12-28T16:19:21Z phoe: I love it
2020-12-28T16:19:21Z Alfr: And thanks jmercouris. ^ :)
2020-12-28T16:19:28Z jmercouris: no problem Alfr
2020-12-28T16:20:12Z pfdietz: The random tester would sometime generate code that failed in the sbcl type propagator because of a loop that successively squared a variable.   The bignums grew too big to store.
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2020-12-28T16:22:23Z phoe: should get a storage-condition then
2020-12-28T16:22:33Z jackdaniel: it probably did
2020-12-28T16:23:55Z pfdietz: Timed out, actually
2020-12-28T16:23:57Z pfdietz: lp 1734714
2020-12-28T16:23:57Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1734714
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2020-12-28T17:48:31Z loke[m]: How can I tell what GIT repository a given QL system uses? In particular, I'm trying to fix a bug in cl-cffi-gtk, but what I believed was the official release doesn't seem to be since the content doesn't quite match what's on QL. Clearly QL uses a different fork.
2020-12-28T17:49:32Z ck_: I thought that was in quicklisp-projects, the repository
2020-12-28T17:49:57Z ck_: loke[m]: is this not it? https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/blob/master/projects/cl-cffi-gtk/source.txt
2020-12-28T17:49:57Z loke[m]: Probably. Thans.
2020-12-28T17:50:22Z loke[m]: Ah. Thanks. Makes sense. This seems to be the right one.
2020-12-28T17:50:32Z ck_: not that ferada is on here as well, maybe that helps
2020-12-28T17:50:35Z ck_: note*
2020-12-28T17:51:02Z loke[m]: ck_: That sure would help.
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2020-12-28T17:53:21Z jackdaniel wishes for a garbage collector of his browser tabs
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2020-12-28T18:11:44Z Cthulhux: some browsers support automatic unloading
2020-12-28T18:14:40Z Xach: that "access" breakage breaks a lot more than i expected
2020-12-28T18:15:03Z phoe: the '(setf aref) one?
2020-12-28T18:15:12Z Xach: yes
2020-12-28T18:15:25Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-12-28/failure-report.html
2020-12-28T18:15:51Z phoe: f
2020-12-28T18:16:11Z Xach: hmm
2020-12-28T18:16:33Z phoe: wait a second, there's a breakage of mine in there...
2020-12-28T18:16:36Z phoe fixes
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2020-12-28T18:21:30Z mfiano: Xach: Was the breakage due to SBCL being more conformant, or what?
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2020-12-28T18:21:41Z mfiano: I see the library hasn't been updated in 5 years anyway
2020-12-28T18:21:55Z phoe: yes, SBCL did not detect this as a compile-time error, and now it does'
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2020-12-28T18:27:09Z phoe fixed PCS
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2020-12-28T18:29:08Z phoe: oh, sheeple is also affected by it
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2020-12-28T18:33:26Z mfiano would be happy if cl-sdl2-ttf was just removed from QL
2020-12-28T18:35:31Z mfiano: It improperly uses finalizers more than 2 years after I changed cl-sdl2 to not use finalizers. The library just plain does not work without memory faults (at runtime), and the author has been unresponsive.
2020-12-28T18:35:49Z mfiano: Therefor, I think it being in Quicklisp is not helping anyone, since it just plain doesn't work at all.
2020-12-28T18:35:59Z Xach: Ok
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2020-12-28T18:40:14Z mfiano: Or maybe it should be moved to sharplispers, if someone is willing to fix it.
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2020-12-28T18:41:17Z attila_lendvai: there's also hu.dwim.sdl which is autogenerated and IIRC complete
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2020-12-28T18:42:29Z mfiano: There's nothing wrong with cl-sdl2
2020-12-28T18:42:44Z mfiano: It's the ttf extension binding
2020-12-28T18:44:27Z mfiano: Oh I see that it includes the extensions too
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2020-12-28T19:58:02Z puchacz: hi, when I have an error inside unwind-protect, and I choose "abort thread" or similar restart, the cleanup clause from unwind protect is not executed. any workaround for it please?
2020-12-28T19:58:18Z puchacz: I use sly but slime is probably similar
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2020-12-28T20:04:03Z pfdietz: "Fixed bug in sheeple where it wasn't waking up."
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2020-12-28T20:08:06Z puchacz: okay, " 1: [*ABORT] Return to SLY's top level." evaluates the cleanup
2020-12-28T20:09:26Z eta: puchacz: yeah aborting the thread, uh, aborts the thread
2020-12-28T20:09:32Z eta: it's like kill -9 for threads
2020-12-28T20:09:38Z eta: you don't get to clean up
2020-12-28T20:10:08Z puchacz: eta - yes, fortunately this "return" works fine. maybe it calls return-from
2020-12-28T20:10:47Z puchacz: in SLY, abort thread restart kills the current REPL as well, so not very convenient
2020-12-28T20:11:19Z eta: puchacz: SLY probably wraps repl evaluations in the equivalent of a WITH-SIMPLE-RESTART
2020-12-28T20:11:20Z puchacz: but I guess the logic is consistent
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2020-12-28T20:11:38Z eta: you should avoid aborting threads if you don't need to :p
2020-12-28T20:12:06Z puchacz: easy to hit the button by mistake :)
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2020-12-28T20:12:15Z puchacz: anyway, I am good with  1: [*ABORT] Return to SLY's top level.
2020-12-28T20:12:21Z puchacz: tks :)
2020-12-28T20:12:47Z eta: no problem!
2020-12-28T20:12:58Z eta: puchacz: protip, pushing "a" should choose that one
2020-12-28T20:13:18Z eta: at least I think it does that for my SLIME setup
2020-12-28T20:13:50Z puchacz: *a means that?
2020-12-28T20:13:52Z mfiano: Hitting "a" selects the to-most abort restart, yes
2020-12-28T20:13:57Z mfiano: top-most*
2020-12-28T20:14:16Z mfiano: Likewise "c" for top-most continue
2020-12-28T20:14:23Z puchacz: it is the second abort, first is to re-evaluate, number 0
2020-12-28T20:14:36Z mfiano: That isn't one named ABORT though
2020-12-28T20:14:48Z puchacz: I see, I will try - thanks
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2020-12-28T20:24:20Z phoe: mfiano: for me it's Q rather than A
2020-12-28T20:24:22Z phoe: Q for Quit
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2020-12-28T20:24:28Z phoe: but I'll try A, maybe it works too!
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2020-12-28T20:24:52Z mfiano: Yes, q is for quit, c is for continue, a is for abort
2020-12-28T20:24:58Z mfiano: Top-most of each
2020-12-28T20:25:20Z mfiano: At least on Sly
2020-12-28T20:25:31Z mfiano: I haven't used SLIME in about 10 years, so unsure how that works :)
2020-12-28T20:25:41Z phoe: same in sly
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2020-12-28T20:29:36Z aeth: it's weird how abort isn't always 0
2020-12-28T20:29:58Z phoe: why would it be?
2020-12-28T20:30:00Z aeth: If 'a' didn't exist, it would be way too much thought any time an error popped up. Sometimes the first abort is hidden behind a MORE
2020-12-28T20:30:05Z phoe: 0th restart is the most recent one, right?
2020-12-28T20:30:17Z phoe: at least on slime, it is
2020-12-28T20:30:29Z aeth: oh, I see, it's probably a front-appending CONS
2020-12-28T20:30:31Z phoe: so, unless you manually reorder restarts for whatever reason, it's not
2020-12-28T20:31:03Z aeth: at least for me, 99% of the time, I'm going to want to abort, fix it in the code, and then rerun it
2020-12-28T20:31:11Z phoe: restarts are bound in clusters, and when you traverse all restarts, you traverse them in strict order
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2020-12-28T20:35:11Z puchacz: 0. retry. 1. *abort (return to toplevel) 2. abort thread
2020-12-28T20:35:28Z puchacz: and pushing A button indeed selected 1
2020-12-28T20:35:50Z puchacz: phoe, I am debugging my sqlite queue by the way, lol :)
2020-12-28T20:35:57Z phoe: :D
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2020-12-28T20:36:18Z puchacz: hence unwind-protect, and threads
2020-12-28T20:37:40Z puchacz: (and speaking of restarts, I bought your book already but not yet read it.... will do)
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2020-12-28T20:37:53Z phoe: thanks, hope it serves you well
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2020-12-28T20:43:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, restart 0 should be the restart in the deepest frame
2020-12-28T20:44:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most systems have a dedicated key or command for the abort restart, though
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2020-12-28T20:44:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: In emacs it's q, lispworks (and some of the other repls) have :a
2020-12-28T20:46:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, more places should provide a continue restart and/or use CHECK-TYPE in their APIs to get the STORE-VALUE restart
2020-12-28T20:46:51Z phoe: or ASSERT with places to get the multi-value-store CONTINUE
2020-12-28T20:47:37Z pfdietz: My favorite case: restarts in the reader for when symbols are given with a nonexistent package, to substitute some other package.
2020-12-28T20:47:55Z phoe: ah yes, Eclector
2020-12-28T20:48:31Z pfdietz: And also in sbcl's reader, now.
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2020-12-28T20:48:37Z phoe: yay!
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2020-12-28T20:50:35Z pfdietz: That went in... 1.5.1?  Last year.
2020-12-28T20:50:53Z phoe: I must have not paid attention
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2020-12-28T20:51:20Z phoe: yes, I see it
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2020-12-28T21:10:50Z Xach: it's not always easy to discover new features!
2020-12-28T21:11:10Z phoe: sometimes it's easy
2020-12-28T21:11:18Z phoe: you discover new SBCL features each month
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2020-12-28T21:21:27Z lonjil: In Sly-DB, 'q' invokes a "safe" restart if used under the repl.
2020-12-28T21:23:00Z lonjil: Which I think means the abort that returns you to Sly's top level.
2020-12-28T21:23:35Z lonjil: rebind `slynk:*sly-db-quit-restart*` in your libraries if you want to confuse people
2020-12-28T21:24:37Z puchacz: same as A?
2020-12-28T21:25:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: SLIME puts a * next to the q restart, iirc
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2020-12-28T21:25:27Z lonjil: 'a' is always the topmost Abort restart.
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2020-12-28T21:25:57Z asarch: One very stupid question: is there a project maker that build an empty skeleton of a QuickLisp-based project? If yes, what is its name?
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2020-12-28T21:26:28Z Xach: asarch: quickproject is one
2020-12-28T21:26:46Z asarch: Thank you, thank you very much Xach! :-)
2020-12-28T21:26:59Z Xach: asarch: for clarity, it creates a project with a simple ASDF system definition. quicklisp can load them, but it's not quicklisp-specific.
2020-12-28T21:27:28Z asarch: I see
2020-12-28T21:27:36Z asarch takes notes...
2020-12-28T21:28:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Interesting, in slime a invokes the abort restart closest to the error throw
2020-12-28T21:28:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: q invokes the restart that goes back to the repl
2020-12-28T21:29:35Z lonjil: That's what I meant by topmost.
2020-12-28T21:31:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://fwoar.co/pastebin/091a0d97c8ab1380b97c3360a02bd85aed504940.lisp.html
2020-12-28T21:31:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think I need to retrain to pushing q
2020-12-28T21:31:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: sorry, a
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2020-12-29T00:10:41Z sjl: love spending 20 minutes digging through SBCL's MOP source code to figure out why it's signaling an error only to realize I did (defmethod update-dependent ...) instead of (defmethod c2mop:update-dependent ...)
2020-12-29T00:10:54Z sjl: Silent naked defmethods are just the worst.
2020-12-29T00:13:14Z phoe: sjl: complain at #sbcl that the "implicitly creating a function" warning should get reinstated
2020-12-29T00:13:19Z phoe: join our choir
2020-12-29T00:13:25Z sjl: I already did long ago
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2020-12-29T00:32:02Z aeth: I implicitly created a complaint
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2020-12-29T01:22:27Z nij: Where can I learn more about open genera OS? especially its relation with lisp machines??
2020-12-29T01:22:57Z nij: On youtube there are just few DEMO videos .. :(
2020-12-29T01:24:24Z sjl: bitsavers has a bunch of genera manuals and such
2020-12-29T01:24:27Z sjl: e.g. https://archive.org/details/bitsavers?and%5B%5D=genera&sin=&sort=-downloads&and%5B%5D=subject%3A%22lisp%22
2020-12-29T01:25:43Z sjl: here's the genera 8 user's guide https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_symbolicssaUsersGuide_1377112
2020-12-29T01:26:36Z nij: Yay.. T_T Thank you
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2020-12-29T01:28:50Z aeth: Based on the URL, I guess that's a mirror of this? http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/
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2020-12-29T01:29:36Z sjl: yeah, with a more searchable interface that a list of directories with terse names
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2020-12-29T01:42:10Z pfdietz: lp 1818142
2020-12-29T01:42:10Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1818142
2020-12-29T01:42:19Z pfdietz: For silent defmethods
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2020-12-29T01:46:50Z pfdietz: "Interlisp is a very large software system [...] Interlisp-D has on the order of 17,000 lines of Lisp code, 6,000 lines of Bcpl, and 4,000 lines of microcode."
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2020-12-29T01:47:49Z pfdietz: (checks sbcl source)  555K lines of lisp code.
2020-12-29T01:48:24Z pfdietz: And 53K lines of C.
2020-12-29T01:49:36Z aeth: If you replace all ;-style comments with #||#-style comments, then you could get any Lisp program down to 1 line
2020-12-29T01:51:02Z pfdietz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
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2020-12-29T02:04:55Z phantomics: Hey, a question about arrays: is there any way to create a "representation" of an array with a different element type?
2020-12-29T02:05:12Z phantomics: For example, say I have an 8-element array of type unsigned-byte 8
2020-12-29T02:05:33Z phantomics: And I want to access the same memory space as a 64-element vector of bits
2020-12-29T02:06:08Z phantomics: I can't use array displacement for this, because (make-array) forbids you to use the :displace-to option with an array of a different type
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2020-12-29T02:06:12Z phantomics: Is there any other option?
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2020-12-29T02:14:40Z aeth: Actually doing it? You can abuse FFI...
2020-12-29T02:14:49Z aeth: e.g. (format t "#x~16,'0X~%" (static-vectors:with-static-vector (a 16 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-element #x12) (cffi:mem-ref (static-vectors:static-vector-pointer a) :uint64 0)))
2020-12-29T02:15:31Z aeth: I'm guessing that you could probably be clever with static-vectors-style hacking to avoid the direct use of CFFI and just create two different arrays that appear to be Lisp native, just with different types and located at the same location.
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2020-12-29T02:16:03Z aeth: But, in general, I think people just make the array itself be octets and then merge them together if necessary.
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2020-12-29T02:17:41Z aeth: i.e. (format t "#x~16,'0X~%" (logior (ash #x12 (* 8 0)) (ash #x12 (* 8 1)) (ash #x12 (* 8 2)) (ash #x12 (* 8 3)) (ash #x12 (* 8 4)) (ash #x12 (* 8 5)) (ash #x12 (* 8 6)) (ash #x12 (* 8 7))))
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2020-12-29T02:24:13Z aeth: Your implementation (e.g. SBCL) might let you pretend that CL is C if (safety 0). Whatever you do, DO NOT do this one. It's unportable and breaks the type system. (defun foo (a) (declare (optimize (safety 0)) (type (simple-array (unsigned-byte 64) (*)) a)) (aref a 0)) (defun bar () (foo (make-array 32 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-element #x12))) (format t "#x~16,'0X~%" (bar))
2020-12-29T02:25:04Z aeth: If the type tags are variably sized, it might not work, either.
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2020-12-29T03:13:25Z sjl: phoe: I think I finally managed to wrangle the stupid class option inheritance thing into submission
2020-12-29T03:13:54Z sjl: in typical MOP fashion, it ended up being way more confusing to implement than I thought it would be
2020-12-29T03:13:56Z sjl: https://paste.stevelosh.com/5ac9a4d86b355da455f1771af5d9ac16da50c3f7
2020-12-29T03:15:03Z sjl: I feel like I probably still screwed this up, but I can't think any more about this tonight.
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2020-12-29T03:25:51Z jrm: Hi. I'm working on an OS package update to alexandria 1.2.  I tested by loading stumpwm.  After the update an error is reported: Lock on package ALEXANDRIA violated when defining ALEXANDRIA:WITH-GENSYMS as a macro while in package STUMPWM.
2020-12-29T03:26:02Z jrm: We currently have a very old version of alexandria before the alexandria-1 and alexandria-2 sub directories were created.  Does something special need to be done to handle the two -1 and -2 implementations?
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2020-12-29T03:26:52Z jrm: ^ First sent those to #common-lisp, but see on https://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/ to use #lisp.  Sorry to anyone who sees that twice.
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2020-12-29T03:37:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: sjl: what's the use case?
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2020-12-29T04:22:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-29T04:25:49Z saganman: Morning beach
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2020-12-29T05:07:27Z phantomics: Thanks aeth
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2020-12-29T07:53:34Z phoe: jrm: there's a package conflict somewhere. What package defines its own WITH-GENSYMS macro?
2020-12-29T07:53:45Z phoe: sjl: ooooh, let me dig in
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2020-12-29T10:14:55Z jrm: phoe: I only see the one definition in alexandria/alexandria-1/macros.lisp.
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2020-12-29T10:15:32Z phoe: jrm: something in stumpwm, or one of its dependencies, likely defines its own, then.
2020-12-29T10:15:47Z phoe: the backtrace for the error that you are getting should list the file in question.
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2020-12-29T10:38:07Z jrm: phoe: Thank you!  Mystery solved.  Stupid user error.  I had this in my config.  https://github.com/Jehops/config/blob/e89f7d56c5b757d2231eccab563238825e228b88/stumpwm/.stumpwmrc#L138-L142
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2020-12-29T10:38:19Z phoe: :D
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2020-12-29T10:38:28Z jrm: For some reason, stumpwm only reported the error with the new alexandria?
2020-12-29T10:38:44Z phoe: maybe the new alexandria introduced a package lock on itself
2020-12-29T10:38:49Z jrm: ah
2020-12-29T10:38:53Z phoe: which sounds sane
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2020-12-29T14:44:09Z shka_: hi
2020-12-29T14:44:19Z beach: Hello shka_.
2020-12-29T14:44:47Z shka_: does sbcl hash-table created with 'equalp will handle other hashtables as keys?
2020-12-29T14:44:54Z shka_: in sublinear fashion
2020-12-29T14:46:01Z lonjil: I imagine that it would handle other hashtables as 'eq keys no matter what, since they are objects with identity.
2020-12-29T14:47:24Z phoe: ^
2020-12-29T14:47:27Z shka_: yeah, but i need equalp
2020-12-29T14:47:35Z phoe: oh wait, equalp descends
2020-12-29T14:47:42Z shka_: well, yes?
2020-12-29T14:47:47Z jackdaniel: see equalp spec
2020-12-29T14:47:52Z jackdaniel: it has well specified behavior for hash-tables
2020-12-29T14:47:56Z phoe: no idea if that is going to be sublinear though
2020-12-29T14:47:59Z shka_: ok
2020-12-29T14:48:44Z shka_: yeah, i know that it should work, i just wonder about the performance
2020-12-29T14:49:16Z shka_: eh, actually i can use ordered list
2020-12-29T14:49:28Z shka_: it will work nicely with 'equal
2020-12-29T14:50:17Z shka_ will figure out equalp case some other time
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2020-12-29T15:01:55Z lonjil: Wow, I had no idea about equalp descending hash tables.
2020-12-29T15:04:39Z pfdietz: Want an abstraction combining equality, canonicalization, and hashing, with all the appropriate axioms relating those.  These should come packaged together.
2020-12-29T15:04:44Z shka_: it does, i just need to know if sbcl hash-table 'equalp and other hash-tables as keys is smart enough to calculate hash in a sensible way
2020-12-29T15:05:23Z shka_: but whatever, i can do this differently
2020-12-29T15:05:26Z phoe: you still need to traverse the whole hashtable to compute the hash
2020-12-29T15:05:29Z nij: Sometimes you just have to deal with other languages. How difficult and practical is it to write a lisp version of that language?
2020-12-29T15:05:39Z phoe: nij: what do you mean, lisp version of what language
2020-12-29T15:05:39Z nij: The specific example in my mind is Hy, which claims to blend python and lisp. The problem is that the language I'm using (SageMath) is close to but not the same as python. In fact, sagemath's codes got pre-processed into python code. If I'm not mistaken, this is enough to keep Hy away from being effective with sagemath. I'm thinking of doing similar things to sagemath, but am not sure how long it's going to take me.
2020-12-29T15:05:59Z shka_: phoe: yes, but ideal you need to do this ONCE
2020-12-29T15:05:59Z phoe: oh, you want to write a lisp dialect in a language of your choosing?
2020-12-29T15:06:13Z shka_: or rather: twice
2020-12-29T15:06:20Z phoe: shka_: yes... for each GETHASH and for each SETF GETHASH
2020-12-29T15:06:22Z shka_: and not n times
2020-12-29T15:06:44Z nij: phoe: Yeah. So effectively i want to work with that language, but in lisp syntax.
2020-12-29T15:06:54Z shka_: phoe: well, you also need to check for collisions if the occur
2020-12-29T15:07:08Z nij: I imagine this won't be hard. But it will take some time..
2020-12-29T15:07:15Z shka_: but still better then linear scan of the whole range
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2020-12-29T15:09:21Z phoe: nij: that's more of a ##lisp topic, but, implement a Lisp interpreter in any language using e.g. MAL (Make-A-Lisp) - that should give you an idea of how to do a similar thing in any programming language
2020-12-29T15:11:52Z nij: OH! I wasn't aware of ##lisp. Sorry.. I will migrate my question there.
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2020-12-29T19:27:00Z jackdaniel: we are testing for the next ECL release: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/-/issues/621 -- please chip in if you have resources to do so :)
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2020-12-29T19:30:39Z _death: I think imcl got a compile error with recent ecl.. didn't look into it
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2020-12-29T19:33:52Z _death: or actually it was a runtime error on startup
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2020-12-29T19:40:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: jackdaniel: is darwin/arm64 supported?
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2020-12-29T19:42:15Z pfdietz: I sent in a bug report on the previous release yesterday.  Issues at the gitlab page... right place to report?
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2020-12-29T19:46:51Z jackdaniel: pfdietz: yes, thank you
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2020-12-29T19:46:56Z jackdaniel: I saw it
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2020-12-29T19:47:14Z jackdaniel: (and confirmed)
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2020-12-29T19:48:39Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: probably it is a matter of adding toolchain parts to the config -- as of now it does not build there
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2020-12-29T19:49:30Z jackdaniel: you know, triplet arch platform abi
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2020-12-29T19:57:34Z slyrus_: so today's the day I try to dig through the various data-frame-ish libraries in common lisp and see what's what. I've got vellum, teddy, and polyclot on my list. Any others I should be considering?
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2020-12-29T20:01:07Z _death: there was also rho
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2020-12-29T20:05:25Z slyrus_: rho gets points off for having neither documentation nor tests that can be easily grokked to infer the API.
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2020-12-29T20:07:27Z _death: didn't try it, but looks like it has unittests.lisp and example.lisp.. and there are some docstrings and comments..
2020-12-29T20:08:14Z slyrus_: I see neither of those files.
2020-12-29T20:08:43Z _death: https://github.com/blindglobe/rho
2020-12-29T20:08:59Z slyrus_: Oh, I see. I was looking at: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mantoniotti/rho
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2020-12-29T20:09:57Z _death: well, it looks like divergent repos
2020-12-29T20:10:07Z shka_: slyrus_: well, as you may noticed i decided to roll my own ;-)
2020-12-29T20:11:34Z shka_: i appreciate your attention, be warned though, vellum probably still has plenty of bugs in dire need of fixing
2020-12-29T20:11:46Z shka_: i just don't encounter them anymore
2020-12-29T20:12:35Z shka_: but no wonder, i simply follow my own footsteps nowadays over and over again
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2020-12-29T20:38:30Z phantomics: Hi slyrus_, is this your library? https://github.com/slyrus/opticl
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2020-12-29T20:40:36Z slyrus_: phantomics: yes
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2020-12-29T20:41:14Z phantomics: It's been quite useful, thanks for writing it
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2020-12-29T20:41:23Z slyrus_: you're welcome! glad you like it.
2020-12-29T20:41:28Z slyrus_: what are you doing with it?
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2020-12-29T20:41:47Z phantomics: Pixel art, in combination with my April APL compiler, don't know if you've seen it
2020-12-29T20:41:58Z slyrus_: no, do you have a link?
2020-12-29T20:42:10Z phantomics: https://github.com/phantomics/april
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2020-12-29T20:42:37Z phantomics: I've been using it for a hardware startup
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2020-12-29T20:43:13Z slyrus_: cool!
2020-12-29T20:43:20Z phantomics: If you want to see more details, I discuss the compiler in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUEIgfj9koc
2020-12-29T20:43:22Z pfdietz: What I remember about APL was that IBM had a special ball for the Selectric typewriter/terminal for it.
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2020-12-29T20:43:35Z phantomics: And the Bloxl device is shown starting around the 1:25:00 mark
2020-12-29T20:44:07Z slyrus_: Uh oh. That's a long video! Going to have to set aside some time to watch it!
2020-12-29T20:44:13Z phantomics: Yeah, paradoxically back in the teletype days it was easier to use an alternate character set than later
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2020-12-29T20:44:45Z phantomics: Yeah, if you just want to see the device jump to 1:25:00 and watch for a few minutes
2020-12-29T20:44:56Z phantomics: It's a giant transparent pixel display
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2020-12-29T20:46:49Z phantomics: The APL developers released another language called J in the 90s because before Unicode, it was a huge pain to use the APL character set
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2020-12-29T20:58:39Z slyrus_: shka_: I'm can make a table with columns but always seem to end up with 0 rows.
2020-12-29T20:59:40Z shka_: slyrus_: yup, that's how it is supposed to work, actually
2020-12-29T21:00:04Z shka_: make-table will always return table with 0 rows
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2020-12-29T21:00:44Z shka_: slyrus_: however, you can insert data into table without resizing
2020-12-29T21:00:59Z slyrus_: yeah, but I'm trying to use transform and body to add rows a la the example but failing
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2020-12-29T21:01:16Z shka_: right
2020-12-29T21:01:24Z shka_: did you pass :end to the transform?
2020-12-29T21:01:33Z slyrus_: :end nil
2020-12-29T21:01:41Z phantomics: slyrus_: Also, I recall I made a PR to opticl to add the ability to save PNGs with grayscale + transparency, is it possible you could merge it? https://github.com/slyrus/opticl/pull/33
2020-12-29T21:01:41Z shka_: oh
2020-12-29T21:01:46Z shka_: it should work
2020-12-29T21:02:01Z shka_: care to share code snipped?
2020-12-29T21:02:06Z shka_: *snippet?
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2020-12-29T21:04:52Z slyrus_: Ah, I got it. I can't shadow my (vellum:body (...) ...) vars with a destructuring-bind, so I have to use another variable name.
2020-12-29T21:05:04Z shka_: right
2020-12-29T21:05:26Z shka_: i probably should put this into readme
2020-12-29T21:06:03Z shka_: it would never occur to me to do something like this, that's why this library is probably ridden with bugs
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2020-12-29T21:06:23Z shka_: :(
2020-12-29T21:07:02Z slyrus_: there's probably a better way to do this: https://gist.github.com/slyrus/0d3585ffb35b714504a6e0434eb47741
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2020-12-29T21:07:48Z shka_: slyrus_: this is actually almost exactly what i would do
2020-12-29T21:08:11Z shka_: well, there is a couple of things that could be changed
2020-12-29T21:08:50Z shka_: first of, symbols established within lambda-list-like part of the body macro are actually special
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2020-12-29T21:09:07Z shka_: which means that you can delegate all of the work into a separate function
2020-12-29T21:09:18Z shka_: *special variables, that is
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2020-12-29T21:11:13Z shka_: secondly, you actually can use function (setf vellum:rr) and pass column index to omit body all together
2020-12-29T21:11:23Z shka_: which is handy for more general purpose code
2020-12-29T21:11:58Z shka_: thirdly, that if can be when, finish-transformation performs non-local exit
2020-12-29T21:13:25Z shka_: finally, if you intend to work with this file format a lot, defining method (vellum:copy-from :indometh ...) is not a bad idea
2020-12-29T21:13:56Z slyrus_: I've updated my body to not need the extra variables
2020-12-29T21:14:01Z slyrus_: https://gist.github.com/slyrus/0d3585ffb35b714504a6e0434eb47741
2020-12-29T21:14:34Z shka_: yeah, that should work as well
2020-12-29T21:14:44Z slyrus_: No, this is just a toy file. I want to be able to parse lots of different kinds of files quickly.
2020-12-29T21:14:55Z shka_: ok, got it
2020-12-29T21:15:21Z shka_: i would like to support such use case as good as i possibly can
2020-12-29T21:15:34Z slyrus_: The prohibition on using existing symbols (e.g. time) is kind of annoying.
2020-12-29T21:15:59Z slyrus_: And it's not clear to me the benefit of these being special variables is
2020-12-29T21:16:09Z slyrus_: "what the benefit"
2020-12-29T21:17:29Z shka_: well, maybe i can show you example?
2020-12-29T21:18:27Z shka_: eh, it is already late actually...
2020-12-29T21:18:47Z slyrus_: Sure, and I'll show you the body* macro I just wrote that doesn't declare the vars as special and allows me to use existing keywords like "time" :)
2020-12-29T21:19:07Z shka_: slyrus_: anyway, it is admittedly, very narrow use case
2020-12-29T21:19:40Z slyrus_: What's the narrow use case? Needing these to be special or the name collision?
2020-12-29T21:19:50Z shka_: needing specials
2020-12-29T21:19:56Z shka_: name collisions happen
2020-12-29T21:20:06Z shka_: as you noticed
2020-12-29T21:20:07Z slyrus_: Ah, Ok. So that suggests a variant of body that declares them special.
2020-12-29T21:20:15Z slyrus_: and body itself shouldn't :)
2020-12-29T21:20:28Z shka_: hm, that is actually a very good point
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2020-12-29T21:22:12Z shka_: furthermore, there is, actually special variable *current-row* so that becomes even less in favor of keeping them special
2020-12-29T21:22:33Z slyrus_: this may seem like a minor issue, but one of my major annoyances with R is the namespace/environment stuff.
2020-12-29T21:22:35Z shka_: i mean, it is possible to get into data one way or another
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2020-12-29T21:23:40Z shka_: slyrus_: it is late, being more explicit would aid me to understand you ;-)
2020-12-29T21:24:08Z shka_: what aspect of that annoys you to be specific?
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2020-12-29T21:25:13Z shka_: slyrus_: would you mind if i would play fast and loose and eliminate special declarations in body right now? you convinced me
2020-12-29T21:25:31Z slyrus_: sounds great!
2020-12-29T21:25:59Z shka_: i will add separate macro, called BODYV
2020-12-29T21:26:05Z slyrus_: as for what annoys me, the whole NAMESPACE file thing being mixed up with R packages and all that is just a mess compared to defpackage/in-package
2020-12-29T21:26:21Z shka_: because it is a little bit like progv
2020-12-29T21:26:26Z shka_: oh, got ya
2020-12-29T21:27:15Z shka_: nah, R as a programming language is really not that good, it is excels in it's domain though
2020-12-29T21:27:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I sort of think body* would be nicer
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2020-12-29T21:28:24Z slyrus_: I've always that lisp should have a destructuring-setq to match multiple-value-setq, but, alas, I have to use values-list...
2020-12-29T21:28:42Z shka_: slyrus_: it CAN have it
2020-12-29T21:28:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can use multiple-value-call
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2020-12-29T21:29:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/fwoar.lisputils/blob/master/multiple-values.lisp
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2020-12-29T21:29:19Z shka_: slyrus_: btw, since i have your attention
2020-12-29T21:29:33Z shka_: i want to cross check one aspect of the body macro with you
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2020-12-29T21:29:41Z shka_: namely, it's dirty little secret
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2020-12-29T21:30:44Z shka_: it is closure constructed by macroexpansion of BODY is NOT thread safe
2020-12-29T21:30:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: nvm, I misunderstood what you were saying
2020-12-29T21:31:12Z slyrus_: shka_: why not?
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2020-12-29T21:32:11Z shka_: long story or short story?
2020-12-29T21:33:01Z slyrus_: long
2020-12-29T21:33:06Z shka_: short story is: questionable optimization techniques
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2020-12-29T21:33:41Z slyrus_: MORE PESSIMIZATION!
2020-12-29T21:34:03Z shka_: long story is that those vars
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2020-12-29T21:34:19Z shka_: are actually established in let over lambda, not let inside lambda
2020-12-29T21:34:38Z shka_: and yes, i measured, it makes the difference
2020-12-29T21:34:53Z shka_: and at the time i convinced myself that this is not a big deal
2020-12-29T21:35:16Z shka_: though looking at this now
2020-12-29T21:35:25Z shka_: i wonder WTF
2020-12-29T21:35:38Z shka_: because it should make exactly zero difference
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2020-12-29T21:35:57Z slyrus_: I'd argue for thread safety/correctness over performance at this point, but it would be interesting know why it makes a difference
2020-12-29T21:36:38Z shka_: i need to double check this again, because after all this time, i just can't believe in my own conclusions
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2020-12-29T21:37:05Z shka_: perhaps i was sleep deprived at the time
2020-12-29T21:37:58Z shka_: slyrus_: anyway, thanks for your input, i really appreciate it
2020-12-29T21:38:39Z slyrus_: thank you for making vellum! It would be great if we could get some critical mass behind it (or one of the other data-frame-ish libraries -- I'm not 100% sold yet :) )!
2020-12-29T21:38:41Z shka_: the state of the library is probably not what you hoped for, it is work in progress, and i want to make it right
2020-12-29T21:38:59Z slyrus_: I'm OK with W.I.P. as long as it's being worked on!
2020-12-29T21:39:41Z shka_: yeah, i still work on it, though i need to split attention between this and statistical-learning
2020-12-29T21:39:49Z shka_: because i need both
2020-12-29T21:40:18Z shka_: anyway, that body macro can wait, i would rather take shower and go to bed now
2020-12-29T21:41:08Z shka_: if anything pops up (which is likely), please contact me
2020-12-29T21:41:18Z slyrus_: ok, thanks!
2020-12-29T21:41:22Z shka_: preferable on the github, i don't check logs on the #lisp
2020-12-29T21:42:21Z shka_: good night all
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2020-12-29T21:42:42Z slyrus_: good night! thanks again. Looking forward to continuing the discussion!
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2020-12-29T21:52:40Z slyrus_: Another thing R gets wrong, IMO, is the whole parse/subst/quasiquote/dplyr evaluation model/!! and !!! rats nest. I much prefer lisp's macro system. But the ability to use unquoted symbols makes for simple-looking code in many cases.
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2020-12-29T21:53:31Z slyrus_: For something like vellum it would be nice to have solid "low level" semantics and then possibly some sort of higher-level set of functions/macros like vellum:body, etc...
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2020-12-29T22:04:33Z shka_: slyrus_: that was my plan actually, not sure if i managed to pull it off but it seems that it kinda works for me
2020-12-29T22:05:24Z shka_: ok, really AFK now :D
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2020-12-30T00:47:35Z jeosol: shka_:?
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2020-12-30T04:26:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-30T06:19:31Z v3ga: hola
2020-12-30T06:19:48Z beach: Hello v3ga.
2020-12-30T06:20:04Z v3ga: morning
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2020-12-30T07:50:59Z beach: Can someone give an example of when the STORE-VARS returned by GET-SETF-EXPANSION would contain more than one element?
2020-12-30T07:51:33Z beach: I suppose it has to do with the PLACE returning more than one value.
2020-12-30T07:51:41Z beach: But I can't think of an example.
2020-12-30T07:52:58Z beach: Oh, wait, GETHASH maybe.  Let me check..
2020-12-30T07:53:23Z beach: Nope.
2020-12-30T07:55:19Z beach: Ah, the place is VALUES...
2020-12-30T07:55:21Z beach: Thanks.
2020-12-30T07:56:00Z pyc: Is there any best practice regarding not using ~A as the format specifier for (format) all the time? I am learning CL and I usually don't bother with ~D, ~F, etc. and use ~A all the time. Is this a bad habit I am picking up or what I am doing is fine?
2020-12-30T07:56:52Z beach: You can't control the precision and such with ~a.
2020-12-30T08:02:28Z ck_: in other words "it depends", I wouldn't call it a bad practice in general
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2020-12-30T08:09:41Z phoe: pyc: ~A is good enough most of the time when you want to have debug prints and other similar fun stuff.
2020-12-30T08:10:04Z phoe: but then you cannot e.g. escape strings with it, that's where ~S comes into play
2020-12-30T08:10:32Z phoe: you cannot control radix of the printed numbers to get binary, octal, hex, ternary - what's where ~B, ~O, ~X, ~3R come into play
2020-12-30T08:11:39Z phoe: you cannot control the way floats are printed, that's where ~F, ~E, and ~G come into play
2020-12-30T08:12:32Z phoe: and you can't even control the padding/width of normal decimal numbers - you need ~D for that
2020-12-30T08:13:05Z phoe: so, IMO not really a bad habit - you're using a swiss knife for getting butter on your bread, which is a good use case
2020-12-30T08:13:16Z phoe: just remember that there's more to it and you'll end up finding out about it sooner or later.
2020-12-30T08:14:18Z pyc: phoe: thanks. that is what I wanted to understand. so I will stick with ~A for now and use another format specifier when I really need one.
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2020-12-30T08:15:12Z phoe: the two most important ones are ~A and ~S
2020-12-30T08:15:20Z phoe: ~A, for when you want humans to read your stuff back
2020-12-30T08:15:27Z phoe: ~S, for when you want Lisp to read your stuff back
2020-12-30T08:15:45Z phoe: all others are more specialized
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2020-12-30T10:00:56Z splittist: good morning
2020-12-30T10:01:11Z beach: Hello splittist.
2020-12-30T10:01:53Z phantomics: morning everyone, I was wondering if anyone had used the optima or trivia pattern matching engines much
2020-12-30T10:02:31Z beach: It seems plausible that someone did.
2020-12-30T10:03:30Z phantomics: Someone has, but are they around?
2020-12-30T10:04:31Z beach: Now, if I were one of them, I would not manifest myself until you say what you would do if I did.
2020-12-30T10:05:32Z beach: So, if I were you, and I had a question about one of those items, I would ask the question, rather than asking whether someone had used one of them.
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2020-12-30T10:08:45Z shka_: hello
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2020-12-30T10:10:15Z phantomics: Does optima have an expedient way to match multiple items from a list in a varying quantity? For example, if I have a list (1 2 3 4 a b 1 2 3) and I want to match 1) all numbers until a non-number and 2) the first non-number, is there an expression that'll match this?
2020-12-30T10:11:09Z phantomics: So for the list (1 2 3 4 a b 1 2 3), the output would be (1 2 3 4), a, and rest of the list (b 1 2 3)
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2020-12-30T10:14:52Z phantomics: Far as I can tell the only way is to recursively pull items off the front of the list and then get the first non-number when numbers are exhausted, but this requires multiple patterns, not very elegant
2020-12-30T10:15:51Z phoe: I know that trivia advertises itself to have the capability to add new patterns *and* be compatible with optima
2020-12-30T10:15:57Z phoe: I don't know if that's something you are interested in though.
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2020-12-30T10:21:13Z phantomics: That could work, thing is that after going over all the trivia docs, it seems there's no way to match a variable number of something in a list
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2020-12-30T10:22:29Z phantomics: All the elements of a pattern until the final rest symbol in a list* pattern or similar refer to individual elements
2020-12-30T10:23:20Z phantomics: So you can't just say "bind to this variable the list of all numbers you can find until you hit the end of the list or a non-number"
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2020-12-30T12:31:24Z shka_: slyrus_: hey, I rewrote and renamed body macro
2020-12-30T12:32:25Z shka_: now it is bind-row
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2020-12-30T12:32:45Z shka_: i think this resolves problems we were discussing yesterday
2020-12-30T12:33:27Z shka_: now time to do some work i am actually paid for xD
2020-12-30T12:33:34Z shka_: see you later
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2020-12-30T13:50:10Z loke[m]: Someone told me that Ferada can be found here? What's their username here?
2020-12-30T13:53:10Z jackdaniel: loke[m]: "ferada"
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2020-12-30T13:59:53Z ck_: (surprise :)
2020-12-30T14:00:11Z ck_: I take it this matrix thing does not display a list of channel nicknames
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2020-12-30T14:02:42Z ferada: loke[m]: hi
2020-12-30T14:03:01Z loke[m]: Hello ferada
2020-12-30T14:03:43Z loke[m]: ferada: I have been working on a GTK backend for McCLIM, and given the type of project, I have run into a lot of edge-cases in cl-cffi-gtk.
2020-12-30T14:04:30Z loke[m]: There are a lot of unimplemented functions that I need. I have implemented them and will post a pull request on it later.
2020-12-30T14:04:56Z loke[m]: However, the biggest issue right now is locking issues in gobject. I just created a bug on it: https://github.com/Ferada/cl-cffi-gtk/issues/54
2020-12-30T14:05:18Z loke[m]: But I need a discussion around it, because to be honest I don't really understand all the things that are going on.
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2020-12-30T14:10:14Z ferada: nice, i'm happy to look at the pr.  re locking, yeah, i've ran into problems with that, though i've to read your write-up to say anything ... and even then, simplifying it is probably the best direction forward
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2020-12-30T14:10:34Z ferada: either on that issue or pm here is probably best for discussion
2020-12-30T14:11:01Z loke[m]: ferada: I'm thinking of ways to eliminate the lock in the finaliser altogether.
2020-12-30T14:13:10Z loke[m]: The thing is, it's not entirely clear to me what it's actually protecting. If you look at glib::at-finalize in gobject.base.lisp, you'll see it locking foreign-gobjects-lock, but immediately after unlocking it, it sets currently-making-object-p, which as far as I can tell, is also accessed from multiple thrads.
2020-12-30T14:13:34Z loke[m]: So the locks aren't consistent. Again, this is based on my understanding which may be incorrect.
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2020-12-30T14:19:36Z ferada: loke[m]: might very well be.  i bet the order in which they're acquired isn't either.  btw. you could also look at cl-gtk2 for the missing history on it
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2020-12-30T14:20:30Z loke[m]: I checked the order. It's actually mostly fine. The issue happens when the finaliser is called. Since it can be called at any time, this is a problem.
2020-12-30T14:20:42Z loke[m]: Another workaround would be to disable GC while that lock is held.
2020-12-30T14:21:04Z loke[m]: But that would involve implementation-specific code (and I'm not sure all implementations can even do so)
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2020-12-30T16:39:21Z antepod: test
2020-12-30T16:39:28Z Xach: failed, sorry
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2020-12-30T16:45:45Z _death: a tester succeeds when his tests fail
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2020-12-30T17:36:03Z mseddon: _death: ironically, true.
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2020-12-30T17:38:38Z _death: there's an old book called The Art of Software Testing that explains this well
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2020-12-30T17:40:55Z _death: apparently you can buy it on amazon for $324.90 to $1008.0
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2020-12-30T17:53:33Z sjl_: or a used copy of Software Reliability: Principles and Practices for $6 which also says something similar
2020-12-30T17:53:50Z sjl_: > Testing is the process of executing a program with the intention of finding errors.
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2020-12-30T17:54:23Z sjl_: > The goal of the tester is to make the program fail.  If his test case makes the program or system fail, then he is successful; if his test case does not make the program fail, then he is unsuccessful.
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2020-12-30T17:56:20Z sjl_: Oh it's by the same guy.  That explains it.
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2020-12-30T17:59:41Z Josh_2: Hello
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2020-12-30T18:01:32Z phoe: heyyy
2020-12-30T18:02:17Z Josh_2: _death: that book looks very boring
2020-12-30T18:02:49Z phoe: software testing is rarely an exciting task in general
2020-12-30T18:03:08Z phoe: an engaging one, sure, but not exciting
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2020-12-30T18:03:31Z phoe: maybe a bit more in Lisp, due to its interactive nature and ability to smoke-REPL-test everything as it's being written
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2020-12-30T18:04:19Z Josh_2: writing tests to break things could be fun
2020-12-30T18:06:06Z phoe: well, that's where software testing kinda turns into penetration testing at times :D
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2020-12-30T18:21:19Z slyrus_: shka_: I'm getting  The function PLOTLY-FORMAT-NO-NULLS is called with three arguments, but wants exactly two. and
2020-12-30T18:22:26Z slyrus_: hmm... I guess that's it. the rest are warnings.
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2020-12-30T18:30:36Z pfdietz: A lot of the old testing literature seems so silly these days.    It was all about using cheap human labor to save expensive computer resources.
2020-12-30T18:30:37Z minion: pfdietz, memo from flip214: yeah, I can't rule out that the difference is due to "cache effects". OTOH, I'm loading an ASDF in a fresh image every time, so alignment _could_ be identical...
2020-12-30T18:30:37Z minion: pfdietz, memo from flip214: just "cache effects" sounds like so much phlogiston or aether to me ;/
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2020-12-30T18:31:39Z pfdietz: "writing tests to break things could be fun"     It is.  Oh yes it is.
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2020-12-30T18:33:34Z lotuseater: phantomics: i read today (skimming the wiki article) that Richard Stallman wrote a text editor in his very young years in APL
2020-12-30T18:35:28Z jackdaniel: APL Silicon hue hue
2020-12-30T18:36:30Z pfdietz: My dad worked at APL when I was a kid (the JHU Applied Physics Lab).   Fun place.
2020-12-30T18:37:01Z phoe: jackdaniel: "hue" is oddly specific, given the amount of colors that phantomics works on in his light boxen thing
2020-12-30T18:37:41Z jackdaniel associates "hue" only with not-very-clever jokes
2020-12-30T18:38:14Z phoe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hue
2020-12-30T18:38:19Z pfdietz: "In general, the least effective methodology of all is random-inputtesting—the process of testing a program by selecting, at random, somesubset of all possible input values. n general, the least effective methodology of all is random-inputtesting—the process of testing a program by selecting, at random, somesubset of all possible input values.
2020-12-30T18:38:19Z pfdietz: " -- The Art of Software Testing, 3rd,. ed. 2012
2020-12-30T18:38:20Z phoe ducks
2020-12-30T18:38:30Z pfdietz: Hmm.
2020-12-30T18:38:49Z pfdietz: Anyway.   It's amazing he could say that in 2012.
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2020-12-30T18:42:19Z lotuseater: pfdietz: so property testing and generating tests automatically is not good? i doubt it
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2020-12-30T18:44:30Z phoe: lotuseater: context: pfdietz is sorta famous for his random test generator that broke SBCL like hundreds of times by now in various interesting ways by generating tons of semirandomized Lisp forms that are valid Common Lisp code and should therefore compile cleanly - and sometimes don't
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2020-12-30T18:46:02Z jackdaniel: lotuseater: I think that pfdietz claims otherwise - that random input testing is quite effective
2020-12-30T18:46:32Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure when fuzz testing gained traction though (before or after 2012)
2020-12-30T18:46:33Z pfdietz: And that trying to carry over testing ideas from a time when computing power was millions of times more expensive is a bold move, to say the least.
2020-12-30T18:47:48Z pfdietz: Random compiler testing?   McKeeman in 1998.   My ansi-test random tester in 2005 (or so); jsfunfuzz in 2007.  Csmith in 2011.  Not sure when AFL came out.
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2020-12-30T18:48:46Z jackdaniel: I know that it was used before 2012 -- by "traction" I mean popularity
2020-12-30T18:48:50Z pfdietz: I sometimes think the reason we've seen a proliferation of new languages in the last decade or so (or so it appears to me) is increasing testability.
2020-12-30T18:49:17Z pfdietz: Used to be it took forever to firm up a new language implementation.
2020-12-30T18:49:25Z lotuseater: that sounds great pfdietz :)
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2020-12-30T18:50:16Z lotuseater: i read once about quickcheck offered hundreds of serious bugs in Erlang BEAM
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2020-12-30T18:52:55Z lotuseater: or same with JVM
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2020-12-30T18:53:55Z pfdietz: Yes
2020-12-30T18:58:59Z lotuseater: and looking at projects like xmonad it stands out in being tested like that
2020-12-30T19:01:02Z lotuseater: so how are random lisp forms generated? those which make sense
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2020-12-30T19:06:50Z lotuseater: hm macros will be very helpful indeed with that too
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2020-12-30T19:13:53Z Josh_2: I was thinking about creating a REST API test generator based off of the templates I use for parsing the json
2020-12-30T19:15:02Z Josh_2: But I have been very lazy this Christmas season and have just played ESO ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-12-30T19:15:22Z jackdaniel: a fun fact is that people seem to accept, that if you swing a radio onto the wall, it may stop working; otoh when they busy-loop an innocent application and it has race conditions they scream "a bug, a bug!"
2020-12-30T19:15:55Z Josh_2: interesting fact
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2020-12-30T20:13:21Z pyc: Is there a function to read an entire file in one shot?
2020-12-30T20:14:05Z phoe: alexandria:read-file-into-{string,byte-vector}
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2020-12-30T20:16:28Z edgar-rft: there's CL:READ-LINE and CL:READ-SEQUENCE, the latter can read an entire file at once into a string or a vector
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2020-12-30T20:18:06Z edgar-rft: ...must of course be wrapped into a WITH-OPEN-FILE, what is the difference to the alexandria stuff
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2020-12-30T21:42:30Z shka_: slyrus_: hey
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2020-12-30T21:46:29Z slyrus_: hey shka_
2020-12-30T21:47:07Z shka_: so it is almost 23:00 here and i am going to bed
2020-12-30T21:47:37Z shka_: you may not notice, but i deleted EMPTY-TABLE
2020-12-30T21:47:51Z Younder: My first car was a cdr but it was just like all the rest
2020-12-30T21:47:57Z slyrus_: OK. I see I missed your most recent change before I pushed my latest.
2020-12-30T21:48:08Z shka_: this function was duplicating functionality of make-table
2020-12-30T21:48:18Z shka_: mostly because every new table is empty
2020-12-30T21:48:20Z slyrus_: Right. You OK if I merge #9?
2020-12-30T21:48:38Z slyrus_: Oh, wait, you have to do that :)
2020-12-30T21:48:42Z phoe: :D
2020-12-30T21:48:57Z shka_: yeah, i am the owner
2020-12-30T21:49:31Z shka_: code looks 99% fine for me
2020-12-30T21:49:45Z shka_: but i would rather name that package vellum.utils
2020-12-30T21:50:03Z shka_: this is the current convention anyway
2020-12-30T21:50:08Z slyrus_: two minutes...
2020-12-30T21:50:24Z shka_: btw, i noticed that you contributed to the cl-dbi
2020-12-30T21:50:42Z shka_: i am starting to consider scrapping postmodern in favor of it
2020-12-30T21:51:56Z shka_: it happens that i seem to use PG almost exclusively
2020-12-30T21:51:58Z slyrus_: They both have their uses. For simpler stuff cl-dbi is nice.
2020-12-30T21:52:12Z slyrus_: But, yeah, postmodern is fine. I'd prefer to be all PG :)
2020-12-30T21:52:18Z shka_: right
2020-12-30T21:52:44Z shka_: as for that dependencies splitting
2020-12-30T21:53:07Z shka_: i think that i should create repos and link them into one project
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2020-12-30T21:53:33Z shka_: vellum-plotly, vellum-postmodern, vellum-mcclim and so one
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2020-12-30T21:57:00Z slyrus_: Ok, new PR rebased and using vellum.utils is ready for your approval.
2020-12-30T21:57:26Z shka_: i would be fine with commit
2020-12-30T21:57:41Z shka_: anyway, love
2020-12-30T21:57:45Z shka_: it
2020-12-30T21:58:31Z slyrus_: awesome. Now to see why we've got some undefined variables. Could be package fallout.
2020-12-30T21:58:44Z slyrus_: And to adjust my work from yesterday to use the new name stuff.
2020-12-30T21:59:13Z shka_: undefined variables? oh no
2020-12-30T21:59:23Z shka_: i didn't notice anything
2020-12-30T21:59:52Z shka_: damn quickload and it's warning muffling
2020-12-30T22:00:03Z slyrus_: defmethod setf row-at
2020-12-30T22:00:16Z slyrus_: index and source are undefined
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2020-12-30T22:01:05Z slyrus_: copy-paste error from above presumably
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2020-12-30T22:03:51Z shka_: slyrus_: fixed
2020-12-30T22:04:02Z shka_: as you may notice, i am not a tidy programmer
2020-12-30T22:04:44Z slyrus_: Looks like that one was in there for a while :)
2020-12-30T22:04:47Z slyrus_: thanks!
2020-12-30T22:05:03Z shka_: yeah, it seems so
2020-12-30T22:05:12Z slyrus_: 6 months :)
2020-12-30T22:05:32Z shka_: side effect of never actually setting value manually
2020-12-30T22:05:40Z shka_: i only use transform for that
2020-12-30T22:07:28Z slyrus_: What do you think about having (vellum:make-table :columns '(first-column (:name second-column :type fixnum))) work so that the :name is implicit if the column spec is an atom?
2020-12-30T22:07:28Z shka_: but yeah, there is a lot of stuff like that in that codebase
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2020-12-30T22:07:54Z shka_: hmmm, i honestly don't like it
2020-12-30T22:08:12Z shka_: i would rather keep as much as possible explicit
2020-12-30T22:09:11Z slyrus_: Hmm... I think the :name stuff gets repetitive. If we can think of a reason not to use the symbol (if it's an atom), I'm OK with that, but the default should just be the name, IMO. I'd like terse syntax (to appeal to the dplyr-using crowd :) ).
2020-12-30T22:10:11Z shka_: i need to think about it
2020-12-30T22:10:21Z shka_: i see your point
2020-12-30T22:11:25Z shka_: anyway, what if you want to create 2 unnamed columns and then one named?
2020-12-30T22:11:42Z shka_: '(nil nil this-one-has-a-name)?
2020-12-30T22:11:49Z slyrus_: Yup
2020-12-30T22:12:14Z slyrus_: How do we feel about identically named columns?
2020-12-30T22:12:39Z slyrus_: prohibited. good.
2020-12-30T22:12:48Z Xach: what about ironically named columns?
2020-12-30T22:12:52Z slyrus_: with a special exception for unnamed columns. Which get a name?
2020-12-30T22:12:58Z slyrus_: hey xach, happy birthday!
2020-12-30T22:13:03Z shka_: Xach: good day
2020-12-30T22:13:24Z slyrus_: xach: I'm trying to help shka_ get vellum quicklisp ready :)
2020-12-30T22:13:29Z shka_: Xach: ironically named columns are supported, but not encouraged ;-)
2020-12-30T22:14:05Z phoe: I'll name my columns '(ionic doric corinthian)
2020-12-30T22:14:19Z phoe: will this signal an IRONIC-WARNING on vellum?
2020-12-30T22:14:20Z slyrus_: '(first fifth)
2020-12-30T22:14:33Z phoe: ...okay, that's warningworthy
2020-12-30T22:14:46Z slyrus_: '(advice gossip)
2020-12-30T22:15:42Z shka_: ACTIONABLE OFFENSIVE COLUMN NAMING DETECTED
2020-12-30T22:16:18Z phoe: (define-condition questionable-column-name (warning) (...))
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2020-12-30T22:17:43Z shka_: anyway, on the serious note
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2020-12-30T22:18:28Z shka_: slyrus_: i lean toward allowing just-a-name for a column
2020-12-30T22:20:29Z slyrus_: I think it's a trivial change to make-header
2020-12-30T22:21:58Z shka_: it is quite simple, yes
2020-12-30T22:22:06Z slyrus_: works here
2020-12-30T22:22:17Z shka_: hmmm, ok, let's go for it
2020-12-30T22:22:38Z shka_: i had other people annoyed by the need for the explicit column naming
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2020-12-30T22:24:30Z slyrus_: How do you feel about a print-object method for fundamental-table?
2020-12-30T22:24:58Z shka_: i also just added dual mode bind-row, so now you can either funcall bind-row directly OR grab the optimized closure out of it
2020-12-30T22:25:17Z shka_: so it can be both safe and fast
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2020-12-30T22:25:28Z shka_: what would that print-object do?
2020-12-30T22:25:35Z slyrus_: call show
2020-12-30T22:26:09Z slyrus_: It would not print readably (yet, although that would be a nice goal).
2020-12-30T22:26:21Z shka_: not sure about the multiline print-object
2020-12-30T22:27:07Z slyrus_: I view this as a must have for interactive development with slime. I can obviously add my own, but I think it's a very nice feature.
2020-12-30T22:27:42Z slyrus_: I pushed the PR for bare column names.
2020-12-30T22:27:42Z shka_: i actually had other idea
2020-12-30T22:27:52Z shka_: yes, looking at it
2020-12-30T22:27:56Z slyrus_: Ok.
2020-12-30T22:28:52Z shka_: yup, that request is no brainer, merging
2020-12-30T22:29:32Z shka_: slyrus_: as for the interactive work
2020-12-30T22:29:45Z shka_: i would want to eventually build something with mcclim
2020-12-30T22:30:19Z shka_: essentially REPL with a table inspector build right in
2020-12-30T22:31:03Z shka_: i am not very good at McCLIM but i seen stuff like this
2020-12-30T22:32:22Z shka_: as for the print-object, i think i would accept this under condition that READ works
2020-12-30T22:32:40Z shka_: which would require a little bit of changes in printing as well
2020-12-30T22:33:12Z shka_: because for now, type information is not presented by show
2020-12-30T22:33:24Z slyrus_: it would be nice to have jackdaniel take a look at vellum and see how he thinks it compares to his polyclot stuff
2020-12-30T22:33:44Z shka_: i know polyclot
2020-12-30T22:34:02Z shka_: scope of the project is different
2020-12-30T22:34:32Z shka_: polyclot is focusing on simply being interface for the plotting library
2020-12-30T22:34:35Z slyrus_: yeah, but he had some dataframe-ish stuff in there as well, along with the mcclim support. not the same but some overlap.
2020-12-30T22:34:43Z shka_: yes
2020-12-30T22:35:17Z shka_: a little bit of overlap
2020-12-30T22:36:02Z shka_: slyrus_: anyway, beach sometimes talks about the second climacs
2020-12-30T22:36:20Z slyrus_: I don't hold my breath, but, yeah, would be nice.
2020-12-30T22:36:30Z shka_: i would imagine that building data IDE on top of it would be the holy grail
2020-12-30T22:37:55Z shka_: i will think about print-object, but i have mix feelings about to say the least
2020-12-30T22:38:36Z slyrus_: OK, being able to C-c C-p a form that makes a table and have it show up in a slime-description window is pretty nice :)
2020-12-30T22:39:43Z shka_: i can acknowledge that
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2020-12-30T22:41:21Z slyrus_: Also, I'd like to modify the end (and maybe start) arg to show to default to the value of a special variable so users can set a default with how many rows they want to see (or all of them).
2020-12-30T22:41:36Z slyrus_: I suppose I could just do that from my print-object method :)
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2020-12-30T22:42:18Z shka_: ok, so print-object idea is ok, but perhaps don't call show in it
2020-12-30T22:43:18Z shka_: slyrus_: so, i would say that print-object should display the whole of the table
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2020-12-30T22:43:31Z shka_: as it is the case for vectors, lists and so one
2020-12-30T22:43:52Z shka_: my problem is that nothing in CL really prints in more then one line
2020-12-30T22:44:15Z phoe: what do you mean, in more than one line?
2020-12-30T22:44:33Z slyrus_: In the spirit of the lisp *print-length*, we should have user-settable special variables that can control these sorts of things.
2020-12-30T22:44:36Z phoe: because this sounds like pretty printing
2020-12-30T22:44:45Z shka_: phoe: right
2020-12-30T22:45:12Z shka_: slyrus_: ok, makes sense
2020-12-30T22:45:57Z shka_: slyrus_: phoe is right
2020-12-30T22:46:37Z slyrus_: The lisp pretty printer has great potential but is hard to get right.
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2020-12-30T22:46:49Z shka_: so I officially ok the print-object idea
2020-12-30T22:46:56Z slyrus_: I wish there were more examples of pretty printing well (that I knew of).
2020-12-30T22:47:23Z shka_: but respect *print-pretty*
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2020-12-30T22:47:35Z slyrus_: lichtblau's XML pretty printing stuff is a step in the right direction
2020-12-30T22:47:44Z shka_: and call show only if *print-pretty* is t
2020-12-30T22:48:11Z shka_: does that sound reasonable?
2020-12-30T22:48:45Z slyrus_: Yes, I guess I'm just used to it always being t.
2020-12-30T22:49:02Z shka_: heh
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2020-12-30T22:53:06Z slyrus_: so yeah, we should probably do better than we currently do on three fronts
2020-12-30T22:53:21Z slyrus_: 1. what do we print if *print-pretty* is nil? just the object as we currently do?
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2020-12-30T22:53:42Z slyrus_: 2. if *print-pretty* is t we should have some sort of nice table with some user-settable default limits
2020-12-30T22:53:56Z phantomics: lotuseater: yes, I heard about that. There's a surprising amount of shared history between Lisp and APL, the reason the arctanh function was broken in some early CL versions was that the it was improperly transcribed from APL.
2020-12-30T22:54:04Z slyrus_: 3. we should consider how to print our tables readably (pretty or ugly both).
2020-12-30T22:54:30Z shka_: 1. yup, maybe add number of rows, columns?
2020-12-30T22:54:37Z shka_: 2. yup
2020-12-30T22:54:45Z shka_: 3. eventually, yes
2020-12-30T22:54:54Z shka_: but not super important
2020-12-30T22:55:42Z shka_: i suspect that calling READ to read in data-frame would not be super important
2020-12-30T22:55:48Z shka_: *popular
2020-12-30T22:56:21Z phantomics: Given that Symbolics wrote LispM compilers for many other langauges to Lisp, I'm surprised they didn't write an implementation of APL, the Space Cadet keyboard even includes the APL characters (albeit in a non-standard layout)
2020-12-30T22:56:29Z slyrus_: read is not popular because it isn't well supported. It _could_ be, which would make it more popular, IMO. But, I can see how others might feel differently.
2020-12-30T22:56:58Z shka_: yes, but even in the Rlang land nobody does this anymore
2020-12-30T22:58:10Z shka_: on the other hand, i did some TCL programming and i can believe in a textual representations
2020-12-30T22:59:00Z shka_: slyrus_: anyway, it is really late here, i will go to sleep now
2020-12-30T22:59:07Z phantomics: shka_ and slyrus_ is vellum the project you're discussing?
2020-12-30T22:59:13Z slyrus_: ok, thanks shka_
2020-12-30T22:59:13Z shka_: phantomics: yes
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2020-12-30T22:59:34Z phantomics: Just looked at it, interested to see how it develops
2020-12-30T22:59:48Z shka_: ... it already has 2 years
2020-12-30T22:59:52Z phantomics: I created a web-based spreadsheet interface for Lisp systems a while back and this could be useful for its next edition
2020-12-30T22:59:56Z shka_: if you can believe that
2020-12-30T23:00:37Z shka_: and 50% of the development time went into debugging internal trees
2020-12-30T23:01:12Z shka_: slyrus_: wanna see something scary?
2020-12-30T23:01:17Z slyrus_: sure
2020-12-30T23:01:33Z shka_: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/vellum/blob/537f680af85b22003e8f2580d0dda4ff71ae9587/src/column/internal.lisp#L379
2020-12-30T23:02:33Z phantomics: Makes sense, I'm still working on perfecting the parser in my APL compiler
2020-12-30T23:02:47Z phantomics: Have you seen this? https://github.com/kat-co/cl-apache-arrow Could be an interesting integration
2020-12-30T23:03:08Z shka_: VELLUM:DROP-ROW was the most PITA to implement in the whole project
2020-12-30T23:03:26Z shka_: phantomics: wow, thans
2020-12-30T23:03:29Z shka_: *thanks
2020-12-30T23:03:36Z shka_: stared it
2020-12-30T23:03:37Z phantomics: There was a recent paper by a group of financial industry consultants who found that NumPy combined with Arrow could give faster performance than the super-expensive, proprietary kdb+
2020-12-30T23:05:05Z slyrus_: shka_: you're not gonna like this but I think the whole selection thing should default to an atom that names the column we want but if it's a list it can be '(:v 1) e.g.
2020-12-30T23:05:49Z shka_: slyrus_: heh
2020-12-30T23:07:00Z shka_: no, this actually sound reasonable
2020-12-30T23:07:02Z slyrus_: (vellum:select *table* :columns '(:v subject :v conc :v time)) vs (vellum:select *table* :columns '(subject conc time))
2020-12-30T23:07:27Z shka_: i think that select stuff should be redesigned
2020-12-30T23:07:38Z slyrus_: There, I just did it :)
2020-12-30T23:07:47Z shka_: not like that
2020-12-30T23:07:52Z slyrus_: hah!
2020-12-30T23:08:07Z shka_: something like that
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2020-12-30T23:08:27Z shka_: ((:v subject)(:v conc)(:v time))
2020-12-30T23:08:40Z slyrus_: is there a dplyr::filter equivalent or do I code my own with transform/bind-row/drop-row?
2020-12-30T23:09:00Z shka_: let me check what filter does
2020-12-30T23:09:27Z shka_: yes, just use transform
2020-12-30T23:09:53Z shka_: transform does EVERYTHING
2020-12-30T23:10:07Z shka_: it is perhaps a little bit to low level though
2020-12-30T23:10:30Z shka_: slyrus_: anyway, select is kinda fancy because you can write stuff like
2020-12-30T23:10:57Z shka_: (:take-from 0 :skip-from 3 :skip-to 8 :take-to 12)
2020-12-30T23:11:19Z shka_: but it is not quite practical
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2020-12-30T23:12:18Z shka_: i think that if atom is encountered, it should be treated as literal row/column ID, otherwise, it gets FANCY
2020-12-30T23:14:27Z shka_: but fanciness should be described using trees
2020-12-30T23:14:48Z slyrus_: this is nice: (filter *table* (time conc) (and (<= time 1.0) (> conc 2.0)))
2020-12-30T23:15:43Z shka_: let me check API package actually
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2020-12-30T23:16:13Z shka_: yeah, nothing like that
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2020-12-30T23:16:58Z slyrus_: how do I get all the column names of a table?
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2020-12-30T23:18:57Z shka_: slyrus_: get header using vellum.table:header, then you can either column-specs or iterate over the header calling index-to-name
2020-12-30T23:19:11Z shka_: the following two functions are in the vellum.header
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2020-12-30T23:21:55Z shka_: column-count on the header returns number of columns
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2020-12-30T23:21:58Z shka_: same for the table
2020-12-30T23:22:13Z shka_: but symbol is actually from the different package
2020-12-30T23:22:48Z slyrus_: yes, I can get column count and iterate over columns calling column-name.
2020-12-30T23:22:56Z slyrus_: might be a more efficient approach but that will work for now.
2020-12-30T23:23:02Z slyrus_: We should add and export that.
2020-12-30T23:23:18Z shka_: i would rather not
2020-12-30T23:23:24Z slyrus_: oh?
2020-12-30T23:23:27Z shka_: it is low level stuff
2020-12-30T23:23:36Z slyrus_: column names aren't, IMO.
2020-12-30T23:23:59Z shka_: ah, right
2020-12-30T23:24:18Z shka_: you are talking about vellum.table:column-name
2020-12-30T23:24:52Z shka_: yes, this should be exported 100%
2020-12-30T23:24:55Z shka_: if it is not already
2020-12-30T23:26:33Z shka_: good night
2020-12-30T23:27:41Z slyrus_: it was the utility function for getting all of the column names at once
2020-12-30T23:27:43Z slyrus_: good night!
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2020-12-31T00:38:57Z rumbler31_: trying to figure out uiop:with-temporary-file
2020-12-31T00:39:31Z phoe: what about it?
2020-12-31T00:39:57Z rumbler31_: what is the point of specifying :want-stream-p to be nil, the body runs after the stream is closed, but how is this useful if there was no way for user code to know what file handle was just created?
2020-12-31T00:40:56Z rumbler31_: in other words, it seems like you only want to do this if you want to simply create an empty temporary file, and the only thing I can think of is that you would then want to do something with this file, either in the body (like open it back up) or simply return the newly created pathname out of this form.  Am I missing something?
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2020-12-31T00:48:12Z rumbler31_: it also looks like you can't nest them and include calls to :close-stream
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2020-12-31T00:50:24Z phoe: where's :want-stream-p? I can't see it in WITH-TEMPORARY-FILE
2020-12-31T00:50:35Z phoe: I see it only in CALL-WITH-TEMPORARY-FILE
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2020-12-31T00:57:34Z matta: rumbler31_: uiop:want-stream-p requires a pathname if a stream isn't requested. CALL-WITH-TEMPORARY-FILE will close the stream before running the body as you said, but the path name will be available.
2020-12-31T00:58:43Z rumbler31_: sorry I was mixing my functions, in the macro to with-temporary-file, I meant the equivalent of specitying want-stream-p, which is to specify a value for the :stream parameter, but yes
2020-12-31T00:59:51Z rumbler31_: so once you have this file, what would you want to do with it that didn't require opening it up in the body, that also wouldn't require keeping it around and binding the pathname to a variable that was in scope after the body returns?
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2020-12-31T01:09:59Z rumbler31_: for example, after reading the macroexpands, I don't see a cleaner way to write the following https://pastebin.com/jWHC46J0
2020-12-31T01:12:17Z matta: I think it would be cleaner to call UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM within the WITH-TEMPORARY-FILE body.
2020-12-31T01:12:55Z phoe: but... wait a second
2020-12-31T01:13:07Z phoe: in with-temporary-file, you don't want the streams
2020-12-31T01:13:16Z phoe: but then you call with-open-file which opens the streams anyway
2020-12-31T01:13:22Z phoe: why
2020-12-31T01:13:49Z phoe: cannot you specify both :pathname and :stream in there?
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2020-12-31T01:19:17Z phoe: or also https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2220#2220
2020-12-31T01:19:27Z matta: Also, I think :keep t is an edge case for WITH-TEMPORARY-FILE. I'd suggest putting as much code as is reasonable within the body, for clarity -- including your call to uiop:run-program.
2020-12-31T01:19:43Z phoe: no streams, no keeps, no setq
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2020-12-31T01:20:14Z phoe: only :if-exists :supersede that is required in this case because both files exist
2020-12-31T01:20:17Z matta: yes, exactly like phoe's paste.
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2020-12-31T02:01:05Z rumbler31_: phoe: so this started because I originally had all the code inside the body of two with-temporary-file calls
2020-12-31T02:02:36Z rumbler31_: I specified a parameter for both :stream and :pathname, and in the beginning of the body of the first call to with-temporary-file, I printed the string to the open stream.  I then needed to close the stream to flush it to disk (and I don't need the stream open anymore) so I specified :close-stream
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2020-12-31T02:04:22Z rumbler31_: before opening the next invocation of with-temporary-file, wherein I did the same thing.  After the inner :close-stream label, I put the run-program call and specified the pathnames as arguments to the command.  When I macroexpanded, I found that the innermost body was being carried up
2020-12-31T02:05:04Z rumbler31_: its easier to code up a few examples than explain it, but basically in the macro, if a :close-stream is called, the body before is stored in a gensym "before" and the after in a gensym "after"
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2020-12-31T02:05:19Z rumbler31_: :close-stream "is specified" sorry
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2020-12-31T02:06:07Z rumbler31_: with nested macros with :close-stream labels, the innermost body was being stored in a place where it couldn't see all the bindings
2020-12-31T02:06:26Z rumbler31_: actually gimme a moment and I'll just write it up and paste it
2020-12-31T02:11:58Z rumbler31_: ok scratch all that.  I wasn't fully reading my error messages
2020-12-31T02:12:57Z rumbler31_: for the record, this works https://pastebin.com/ZxfYNKv4
2020-12-31T02:13:06Z rumbler31_: sorry for the noise
2020-12-31T02:14:32Z rumbler31_: all is calm, all is right
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2020-12-31T04:03:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-12-31T04:05:34Z shinohai: Buenas dias beach !
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2020-12-31T04:08:29Z pyc: Good morning beach. Which timezone do you belong to?
2020-12-31T04:08:51Z beach: UTC+1
2020-12-31T04:09:29Z pyc: beach: wow! must be early morning there.
2020-12-31T04:10:59Z beach: Colleen: Time in Bordeaux.
2020-12-31T04:11:00Z Colleen: The time in Bordeaux. is 2020.12.31 05:11:00.
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2020-12-31T04:44:56Z mfiano: Hello all. I have a programming problem here, and the answer is probably either row-major-aref or displaced arrays, but I'm unsure how to utilize them very well, and definitely not for this problem.
2020-12-31T04:46:59Z mfiano: I have a large 2D array of grid cell objects. I have a function that takes as input this grid, and a rectangle object. Inside the function, I convert the coordinates of each of the rectangles corners into grid coordinates, and I now need to loop over the sub-region of the grid denoted by these 4 coordinates, collecting the grid cell objects.
2020-12-31T04:47:06Z mfiano: Any help would be appreciated.
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2020-12-31T04:48:35Z beach: (loop for i from a below b append (loop for j from c below d collect (grid i j)))
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2020-12-31T04:51:05Z mfiano: Oh hmm, that might work. Though I can't really afford that append in there.
2020-12-31T04:51:30Z beach: Try nconc then.
2020-12-31T04:51:48Z beach: Or do it manually.
2020-12-31T04:52:07Z mfiano: Thank you beach.
2020-12-31T04:52:27Z mfiano: I was overthinking this at this late hour on the opposite side of the world.
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2020-12-31T04:52:46Z beach: (loop with result = '() for i from a below b do (loop for j from c below d do (push (grid i j) result)) finally (return (nreverse result)))
2020-12-31T04:53:06Z mfiano: did you just destructively modify a list literal? :)
2020-12-31T04:53:13Z beach: No.
2020-12-31T04:55:03Z aeth: In terms of style, I tend to use (list) there for exactly the reason mfiano brought up
2020-12-31T04:55:08Z aeth: even though obviously it doesn't modify a list literal
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2020-12-31T04:59:16Z mfiano: I guess I'm still a little lost and probably need sleep. I have 8 variables, denoting the x,y coordinates of 4 grid locations.
2020-12-31T04:59:36Z aeth: absolutely
2020-12-31T04:59:41Z aeth: that's what I'd do in the situation
2020-12-31T04:59:45Z aeth: sleep solves all problems
2020-12-31T05:01:53Z beach: In terms of my loop, the corners would be [a c] [a d] [b c] [b d]
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2020-12-31T05:13:20Z akoana: beach: just trying to follow, what would  (grid i j) be? I get Undefined function: GRID
2020-12-31T05:13:53Z akoana: (trying your loop)
2020-12-31T05:14:12Z beach: (aref grid i j) I guess.
2020-12-31T05:14:28Z akoana: ah, thank you!
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2020-12-31T07:36:15Z oni-on-ion: http://www.sbcl.org/all-news.html#2.1.0
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2020-12-31T08:00:19Z kenran: I've started reading PCL and I've just finished the chapter where he builds a small unit test framework. One question that popped into my mind is about the function (defun report-result (result form) (format t "something~a" result form)): Would it be possible to use a macro for that as well?
2020-12-31T08:02:39Z kenran: Or is it because 'result' is only known at runtime?
2020-12-31T08:03:00Z phoe: why use a macro
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2020-12-31T08:03:25Z kenran: In general, I'm now wondering if/when to use macros where a normal function would do as well.
2020-12-31T08:03:30Z phoe: never
2020-12-31T08:03:48Z phoe: whenever a normal function does well, always use normal functions
2020-12-31T08:03:58Z kenran: that sounds like a good rule
2020-12-31T08:04:20Z kenran: thanks
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2020-12-31T08:04:59Z kenran: At the moment, I'm just playing around to get a feeling for what can be done at macro-expansion time and what needs to be done at runtime. It's a bit mind-boggling :D
2020-12-31T08:05:18Z kenran: I've done some Clojure, but didn't really use macros at all there except for a few simple cases.
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2020-12-31T09:10:22Z sauvin: Feh. I'm still trying to figure out how to (setq b a) in fun1 such that it's visible *nowhere* outside fun1.
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2020-12-31T09:13:09Z beach: clhs let
2020-12-31T09:13:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2020-12-31T09:13:41Z beach: sauvin: You can't use SETQ on an undefined variable.
2020-12-31T09:13:50Z beach: If you try, you should get a warning.
2020-12-31T09:15:33Z beach: sauvin: If I understand you correctly, you want B to be a lexical (local) variable, yes?
2020-12-31T09:15:55Z sauvin: Yes, visible *only* inside the form in which it's used.
2020-12-31T09:16:08Z beach: Er, what does that mean?
2020-12-31T09:16:20Z beach: The form is (setq b a).
2020-12-31T09:16:41Z beach: Clearly for that form to make sense, there has got to be a B outside it.
2020-12-31T09:16:51Z sauvin: (defun crap () (setq a something) (setq b something_else) (somefunc something somethingelse) )
2020-12-31T09:17:02Z beach: You are not allowed to do that.
2020-12-31T09:17:03Z phoe: sauvin: which A and B are you setting?
2020-12-31T09:17:11Z phoe: I mean, where were they defined?
2020-12-31T09:17:13Z beach: A and B are not defined.
2020-12-31T09:17:29Z beach: sauvin: Use LET to define A and B.
2020-12-31T09:17:53Z sauvin: That's what I'm looking at because of what you said just minutes ago.
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2020-12-31T09:18:44Z beach: (defun ... () (let ((a something) (b something-else)) ...))
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2020-12-31T09:19:22Z beach: You are not allowed to use SETQ on undefined variables.  Your Common Lisp implementation should have given you a warning.
2020-12-31T09:20:20Z shka_: hmmmm
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2020-12-31T09:20:45Z shka_: more like, you are advised against it
2020-12-31T09:20:49Z shka_: strongly
2020-12-31T09:21:00Z beach: shka_: It is undefined behavior.
2020-12-31T09:21:04Z shka_: really?
2020-12-31T09:21:07Z beach: Yes.
2020-12-31T09:21:30Z shka_: on lisp uses setq to define global variable...
2020-12-31T09:21:41Z shka_: bad Graham, bad
2020-12-31T09:21:51Z beach: Yes, so do some other books, and so does the Common Lisp HyperSpec in places.
2020-12-31T09:22:32Z phoe: yes
2020-12-31T09:22:32Z shka_: i suspect that there is story behind it, but it is pretty bad
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2020-12-31T09:22:43Z phoe: the story is that old lisps used that to define global variables
2020-12-31T09:22:56Z phantomics: For the purpose of teaching, it's convenient to do it that way. Wrapping everything in a (let) form is confusing to new users
2020-12-31T09:22:57Z shka_: i suspected this
2020-12-31T09:23:02Z phantomics: Although it starts them out with a bad habit
2020-12-31T09:23:03Z phoe: and modern CL implementations preserve this behavior for backwards compatibility even though it's not CL-valid
2020-12-31T09:23:18Z shka_: this is evil
2020-12-31T09:23:33Z phoe: ...but some of them issue warnings
2020-12-31T09:23:43Z beach: shka_: It is just that, in the past, we thought it was a good idea to help the programmer by doing "something reasonable".  But then we got wiser because a simple typo can then create a lot of debugging time.
2020-12-31T09:24:10Z beach: shka_: Same with having DEFMETHOD implicitly create the generic function.
2020-12-31T09:24:10Z shka_: beach: the infamous good idea fairy
2020-12-31T09:24:48Z phoe: DWIM
2020-12-31T09:25:59Z shka_: defmethod creating generic is so nice when you forget to add the packagename to the function name
2020-12-31T09:26:09Z shka_: and it just implicitly creates THE WRONG METHOD
2020-12-31T09:26:13Z shka_: eh
2020-12-31T09:26:27Z beach: That's what I mean, yes.
2020-12-31T09:27:20Z shka_: this is actually worse then setq
2020-12-31T09:27:47Z shka_: because there is no reason to use setq instead of setf
2020-12-31T09:28:24Z beach: Using SETF on an undefined variable is also undefined behavior.
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2020-12-31T09:28:43Z shka_: right
2020-12-31T09:29:13Z sauvin: Yes, it looks like let is what I'm looking for.
2020-12-31T09:29:26Z oni-on-ion: ouch
2020-12-31T09:29:44Z beach: oni-on-ion: What?
2020-12-31T09:30:17Z sauvin: When I say I have zero experience with lisp, I'm lying, but not by much: about twenty years ago, I did a couple of years of writing AutoLISP stuff.
2020-12-31T09:30:27Z shka_: beach: do you plan to error-out on setq that should not be?
2020-12-31T09:30:33Z phoe: autolisp isn't very close to CL
2020-12-31T09:30:43Z shka_: in sicl
2020-12-31T09:30:46Z phoe: and even the overall CL programming style has changed over the last twenty years
2020-12-31T09:30:49Z oni-on-ion: had thought; torah is like CLHS, the written version. now there is the oral "tradition" which is not written down, as the other half of the story. it feels like CL has this kind of situation as well =)
2020-12-31T09:30:56Z beach: shka_: Maybe so.
2020-12-31T09:31:11Z phoe: oni-on-ion: yes, the holy scriptures and their interpretations sort of situation
2020-12-31T09:31:15Z oni-on-ion: yeh
2020-12-31T09:31:18Z sauvin: I'm not counting AutoLISP as lisp experience for that very reason. It's not like what I believe I remember.
2020-12-31T09:31:41Z shka_: beach: if it won't prevent compilation of 99% of lisp systems? ;-)
2020-12-31T09:31:41Z phoe: but with CLHS the issue isn't because it's holy, it's because fixing it and ensuring backwards compatibility is a massive and time-taking and thankless task
2020-12-31T09:31:48Z phoe: and I say that as someone who tried
2020-12-31T09:31:55Z oni-on-ion: heh, fair
2020-12-31T09:31:58Z phoe: shka_: it sounds more like finding bugs in dependencies of 99% lisp systems
2020-12-31T09:32:03Z phoe: I'm all up for it
2020-12-31T09:32:14Z beach: shka_: I already catch things that others don't, like incorrect LOOP clause order.
2020-12-31T09:32:15Z shka_: phoe: heh, this is the same thing
2020-12-31T09:32:31Z phoe: :D
2020-12-31T09:32:37Z oni-on-ion: beach, i wanted to ask you earlier, what is main reason for new implementation? just curious
2020-12-31T09:33:27Z beach: oni-on-ion: The stuff that I want would be unacceptable to the maintainers of existing Common Lisp implementations, so that was my only option.
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2020-12-31T09:33:36Z shka_: oni-on-ion: clean room approach vs 50 years old code base?
2020-12-31T09:33:53Z phoe: writing in full CL as opposed to writing in subsets of CL and/or other languages
2020-12-31T09:33:54Z beach: oni-on-ion: Like first-class global environments, more use of CLOS, "cleaner" code.
2020-12-31T09:34:14Z beach: That too, yes.
2020-12-31T09:34:29Z oni-on-ion: ahh! very cool. and very fair
2020-12-31T09:34:47Z oni-on-ion: is it fun/worthwhile so far ? quite the undertaking
2020-12-31T09:35:25Z beach: oni-on-ion: It is a lot of work, but I am doing great progress.  And I have had significant help.
2020-12-31T09:35:34Z phoe: it already has multiple benefits on the Lisp ecosystem, too
2020-12-31T09:35:59Z phoe: the project is highly modular and that's a big benefit, because we get e.g. Cleavir the compiler or Eclector the reader as fully portable and conforming libraries
2020-12-31T09:36:19Z phoe: and we can and do use them outside SICL.
2020-12-31T09:36:25Z beach: oni-on-ion: scymtym basically created Eclector (the reader).  Bike and karlosz are working on the compiler.  heisig did Trucler and the sequence functions.  etc. etc.
2020-12-31T09:36:49Z shka_: clasp uses bits of sicl as well
2020-12-31T09:37:02Z beach: Indeed, Clasp uses the compiler and Eclector.
2020-12-31T09:38:25Z oni-on-ion: beach, ah awesome! very cool =)
2020-12-31T09:38:41Z beach: Thanks!
2020-12-31T09:38:50Z oni-on-ion: phoe, true; had noticed some of this
2020-12-31T09:39:27Z oni-on-ion: i've had gotten SICL and Clasp mixed up (not in name) and SICL is where my interest goes mainly. there seems to be much CL code that can be shared across imps
2020-12-31T09:43:58Z beach: That was my initial idea, yes.
2020-12-31T09:44:07Z beach: But as it turns out, it is not going to be easy.
2020-12-31T09:44:51Z beach: Since I use the full language to implement each module, most Common Lisp implementations can't use them.  They must build up the system from a simple core, adding features for each new module.
2020-12-31T09:45:07Z oni-on-ion: have not seen Bike in a while
2020-12-31T09:45:25Z beach: He's on vacation probably.
2020-12-31T09:45:32Z beach: I don't have that problem with SICL, because of the way it is bootstrapped.
2020-12-31T09:45:34Z oni-on-ion: beach, ahh, hmm. i notice more and more SBCL-specific features happening. but no one wants to use them
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2020-12-31T09:46:01Z beach: Such as?
2020-12-31T09:46:01Z shka_: oni-on-ion: because people like portable cod
2020-12-31T09:46:04Z shka_: code
2020-12-31T09:47:14Z oni-on-ion: beach, type inference for eg; but a lot on the release changes page http://www.sbcl.org/news.html#2.1.0
2020-12-31T09:47:43Z beach: I see.
2020-12-31T09:47:49Z oni-on-ion: shka_, i've rarely seen that in practice; but mostly in the form of "i like to keep another one around, CLISP or ccl or whatever, just to check make sure my code is portable"
2020-12-31T09:47:52Z phoe: what do you mean by SBCL-specific when you speak about type inference though?
2020-12-31T09:48:18Z phoe: type inference helps SBCL optimize otherwise portable code; there are not really many SBCL-specific declarations in there
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2020-12-31T09:48:27Z oni-on-ion: phoe, i learned that SBCL has some kind of type inference, that others may not have. i am just about to google this now because i really like TI
2020-12-31T09:49:03Z oni-on-ion: eg: "new feature: SB-EXT:PRIMITIVE-OBJECT-SIZE can be used to interrogate the low-level size in memory of objects. (#1636910, reported by anquegi) "
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2020-12-31T09:49:17Z phoe: that's not type inference though
2020-12-31T09:49:29Z oni-on-ion: im talking about 3 things at once
2020-12-31T09:49:33Z phoe: yes, I see
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2020-12-31T09:50:54Z oni-on-ion: the inferencing of types is sbcl, but done with CL portable code. this i understand =)
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2020-12-31T09:51:38Z oni-on-ion: but why i like TI does make a difference for developer (catching stuff early, even for eg. avoiding typo that takes a while to debug as beach mentioned a moment ago)
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2020-12-31T09:52:46Z oni-on-ion: and i understand that nice/secure/performant code can be pure CL, but i am wondering -- why not use all the SBCL stuff ? i have not often seen the requirement of multiple implementations in the wild or in proprietary notes
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2020-12-31T09:54:07Z shka_: oni-on-ion: not only portable between different implementations but also between different versions of sbcl
2020-12-31T09:54:21Z shka_: either back compatible, or forward compatible
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2020-12-31T09:55:26Z phoe: oni-on-ion: future insurance
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2020-12-31T09:55:47Z phoe: who knows if you won't want to run your code on ECL instead, e.g. for deployment on mobile devices
2020-12-31T09:55:50Z shka_: if you just write standard CL, avoid UBs and so one, it is possible to run it on both 1998 CL implementation and 2070 implementation
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2020-12-31T09:55:55Z phoe: or on ABCL so it can benefit from real-time GC on the JVM
2020-12-31T09:56:15Z phoe: or on commercial implementations so it can benefit from their commercial goodness
2020-12-31T09:56:30Z phoe: or on CCL because you'll want to build against native macOS cocoa GUI
2020-12-31T09:56:54Z phoe: or on Clasp because you'll want to bind to C++
2020-12-31T09:57:16Z phoe: in all those situations, your #+sbcl is going to be sad
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2020-12-31T09:58:32Z shka_: also notice, that stuff gets removed from sbcl
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2020-12-31T10:01:10Z phoe: ...unless you also have a matching #-sbcl
2020-12-31T10:01:26Z phoe: at which point you're inventing a tiny impromptu portability library
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2020-12-31T10:03:10Z oni-on-ion: shka_, hm true, never thought of that (compat with versions of sbcl)
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2020-12-31T10:04:29Z oni-on-ion: phoe, hmm, is ECL still alive ? also, does JVM GC outperform SBCL GC?
2020-12-31T10:04:40Z shka_: yse and yes
2020-12-31T10:04:45Z shka_: *yes and yes
2020-12-31T10:04:50Z beach: ECL is maintained by jackdaniel.
2020-12-31T10:04:56Z oni-on-ion: ah. and ahhh
2020-12-31T10:06:21Z phoe: ECL is doing well and aiming for a new release right now
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2020-12-31T10:17:35Z oni-on-ion: ah wonderful =)
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2020-12-31T10:20:44Z oni-on-ion: C has had its share of breaking changes; not sure if we will see many more of them if any in the coming decades
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2020-12-31T10:22:42Z shka_: oni-on-ion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C11_(C_standard_revision)
2020-12-31T10:22:56Z shka_: and C2X is on its way
2020-12-31T10:24:12Z oni-on-ion: its C17 now though ?
2020-12-31T10:24:41Z shka_: yes, C17 only introduces bugfixes though
2020-12-31T10:25:00Z shka_: anyway, i suspect that C will continue to change no
2020-12-31T10:25:02Z shka_: w
2020-12-31T10:25:10Z oni-on-ion: hmm; and looking all all these, most of them were GNU in the first place. surely much of my C code relied on GNU (CC) extensions
2020-12-31T10:25:22Z oni-on-ion: thats probably true
2020-12-31T10:25:35Z mrios222: Hi, I have a question about POST requests made to Hunchentoot. If I send a JSON object as the body, then how can I access the JSON data using define-easy-handler?
2020-12-31T10:25:51Z oni-on-ion: whoa @ Type-generic expressions
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2020-12-31T10:26:42Z shka_: mrios222: hi, *request*
2020-12-31T10:26:52Z shka_: http://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/#requests
2020-12-31T10:27:22Z shka_: and raw-post-data
2020-12-31T10:27:40Z shka_: mrios222: you understand, right?
2020-12-31T10:30:12Z mrios222: shka_ Do you know of any examples of working code?
2020-12-31T10:31:34Z oni-on-ion: is this happening ? https://github.com/spxy/clpc
2020-12-31T10:32:38Z mrios222: shka_ I get errors when I try to use the methods for *request*
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2020-12-31T10:33:36Z mrios222: When I don't get 500 errors, all of the data comes up as NIL or the hexadecimal id for the request object
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2020-12-31T10:38:02Z mrios222: When I do (post-parameters* *request*) I get NIL, even though I'm sure that I'm sending a body object that is stringified JSON
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2020-12-31T10:39:52Z shka_: hmmm
2020-12-31T10:40:23Z shka_: mrios222: sorry, can't help, it's been some time since i was using hunchentoot
2020-12-31T10:40:34Z mrios222: shka_ no problem
2020-12-31T10:41:47Z mrios222: I figured it out. I need to use (raw-post-data :force-text *response*) and then feed that into a json reader
2020-12-31T10:42:28Z shka_: hmm
2020-12-31T10:42:36Z shka_: *response*
2020-12-31T10:42:42Z shka_: ok, i guess?
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2020-12-31T11:08:21Z pyc: what does it mean when a system (like uiop) is part of ASDF? Does it mean that I can safely rely on it and it will work on all CL implementations without installing any additional dependency?
2020-12-31T11:09:55Z oni-on-ion: in this case i believe it means that uiop was initially part of asdf, then seperated into its own project; but as a subproject of asdf ?
2020-12-31T11:10:57Z pyc: oni-on-ion: is relying on uiop portable then? Is it guaranteed to be available in all CL implementations? (I am a newbie to CL)
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2020-12-31T11:11:29Z phoe: pyc: it's a portability library, meaning, a library that bridges gaps across different Lisp implementations for non-standard behavior
2020-12-31T11:11:54Z oni-on-ion: i would feel safe to say yes - according to "UIOP is the portability layer of ASDF. It provides utilities that abstract over discrepancies between implementations, between operating systems, and between what the standard provides and what programmers actually need, to write portable Common Lisp programs. "
2020-12-31T11:11:57Z phoe: such like usocket for network sockets, bordeaux-threads for multiprocessing, trivial-gray-streams for programmable streams, etc..
2020-12-31T11:11:59Z oni-on-ion: (from https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/uiop.html )
2020-12-31T11:12:04Z pyc: phoe: okay. i am trying to understand if this library is guaranteed to be available on any CL implementation.
2020-12-31T11:12:09Z phoe: nope
2020-12-31T11:12:17Z phoe: but, if you use ASDF, then UIOP is there
2020-12-31T11:12:18Z shka_: pyc: uiop is likely to never go away
2020-12-31T11:12:25Z shka_: you can count on it
2020-12-31T11:12:26Z phoe: and you are very likely to use ASDF while doing Lisp.
2020-12-31T11:12:53Z oni-on-ion: "... to write portable Common Lisp programs. " as long as one's system/impl supports it perhaps.
2020-12-31T11:13:03Z shka_: which they do
2020-12-31T11:13:07Z shka_: all of them
2020-12-31T11:13:35Z pyc: does SBCL come with ASDF automatically? because I never installed ASDF explicitly myself but I see (uiop:read-file-string) works.
2020-12-31T11:14:36Z phoe: you have Quicklisp loaded, yes?
2020-12-31T11:14:49Z phoe: Quicklisp loads ASDF which loads UIOP
2020-12-31T11:15:00Z pyc: phoe: yes, i have quicklisp loaded and added to ~/.sbclrc. Is that why uiop is available too?
2020-12-31T11:15:03Z phoe: yes
2020-12-31T11:15:10Z phoe: try running SBCL without Quicklisp loaded!
2020-12-31T11:15:24Z edgar-rft: I'm not so sure about "all of them", there still exist exotic implementations like GNU Common Lisp.
2020-12-31T11:15:31Z phoe: GCL is dead though
2020-12-31T11:15:42Z phoe: (and AFAIR hasn't ever really been conforming)
2020-12-31T11:16:08Z pyc: phoe: you are right. without loading quicklisp, i get "Package UIOP does not exist."
2020-12-31T11:16:14Z edgar-rft: GCL is stil used by Maxima on Windows if I'm not totally wrong.
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2020-12-31T11:17:27Z edgar-rft: but sure, you can say all *sane* Common Lisp implementations use ASDF ande therefore also UIOP nowaways
2020-12-31T11:18:03Z jackdaniel expresses doubt whether using asdf and uiop is a sane choice, but oh well
2020-12-31T11:18:03Z pyc: I am reading a CL thread on Hacker News and I came across this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25586297 It says, "I have less patience with ... the churn found in many currently popular languages." What does churn mean in this context? Sorry, I am not a native english speaker.
2020-12-31T11:18:55Z beach: Type "define churn" to Google.
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2020-12-31T11:19:33Z edgar-rft: jackdaniel: ASDF and UIOP provide a level of insanity the ANSI specification lacks :-)
2020-12-31T11:20:17Z pyc: beach: I did and I found some meanings like "unplesant disturbed feeling" and I am not sure that applies here. I mean I am guessing it has something to do with nature of languages. There is some undesirable property known as "churn" that is present in other languages which is missing from CL.
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2020-12-31T11:20:50Z pyc: "unplesant disturbed feeling" is quite vague. so I am hoping this channel can help me understand what "churn" is, how it is present in other languages but not in CL.
2020-12-31T11:22:12Z pyc: jackdaniel: why do you doubt asdf and uiop aren't sane choice. if you could elaborate it would help a beginner like me.
2020-12-31T11:22:44Z phoe: mostly because of the ideological difference between standard CL and UIOP
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2020-12-31T11:23:07Z pyc: what's the ideological difference between CL and UIOP?
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2020-12-31T11:23:35Z heisig: >  churn out: To produce in an abundant and regular manner: churns out four novels a year.
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2020-12-31T11:24:01Z phoe: UIOP is a single-implementation library without a standard, CL is very much the opposite
2020-12-31T11:24:51Z heisig: If Common Lisp code had things in an "abundant and regular manner", you could introduce a macro to abbreviate it.
2020-12-31T11:25:01Z phoe: and for many purposes UIOP is the necessary evil
2020-12-31T11:26:01Z phoe: getting implementers to agree on an extension is a very *very* tough task to do, so UIOP, like many other portability libraries, just moved in while skipping this step wherever possible
2020-12-31T11:26:07Z pyc: oh! that makes sense. and that makes me wonder about standardization vs. pragmatism. I am learning CL because it is a standard and I want to write my code once and run for the next 30 years. I have had quite a bad time in Python where code I wrote 10 years ago broke with Python 3 upgrade. Sure, conversion from Py 2 to Py 3 can be automated but it is still additional work and hassle.
2020-12-31T11:26:26Z phoe: and the tough part is most people have a choice to e.g. not use bordeaux-threads or have them loaded in their image whatsoever
2020-12-31T11:26:34Z phoe: it's different with UIOP because then they cannot have ASDF.
2020-12-31T11:26:51Z pyc: so I have come to take refuge in CL where I am hoping I can write something once and it will run for the next 30 years without requiring a lot of maintenance. if UIOP can break that guarantee then I may want to avoid it.
2020-12-31T11:27:12Z phoe: there's also the question of inertia
2020-12-31T11:27:29Z phoe: if UIOP breaks backwards compatibility at some point then people simply won't upgrade the new version
2020-12-31T11:27:55Z phoe: that's the fate of e.g. Alexandria, too, which is probably the most popular CL library
2020-12-31T11:28:00Z phoe: s/upgrade/upgrade to/
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2020-12-31T11:28:25Z phoe: Alexandria's fate is worsened by the fact that it's heavily :USEd, too, which means that it cannot easily export new symbols without setting a lot of the CL world on fire
2020-12-31T11:28:38Z phoe: (because of import conflicts)
2020-12-31T11:29:26Z pyc: if people simply won't upgrade, then it is good news. but sadly in JS and Python world I see people are always ready to upgrade when something breaks. Upgrading is the norm. People like me who do not want to modify 10 year old code to make a new version of a package happy are the outliers.
2020-12-31T11:29:30Z phoe: so IMO these libraries are very unlikely to change in backwards-incompatible way, even from the practical or pragmatic point of view
2020-12-31T11:29:46Z phoe: well, there's many people in the CL world who think the same
2020-12-31T11:29:58Z jackdaniel: here an idea: export from all new libraries a symbol shadowed from cl (something irrelevant), then if someone uses your library and the cl package, then they will need to think twice
2020-12-31T11:30:10Z phoe: jackdaniel: I have been thinking about it
2020-12-31T11:30:45Z phoe: this is one of the ideas that sound really good and really evil at the same time
2020-12-31T11:30:54Z heisig: Speaking of UIOP, is there already a CL version of Python's pathlib?  Because that one looks reasonable, and it has the advantage that many programmers are already familiar with the interface.
2020-12-31T11:30:55Z jackdaniel: evil?
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2020-12-31T11:31:19Z pyc: phoe: you mean people in the CL world also think that it is okay for upgrades to break old code? or they think that upgrades should never break old code?
2020-12-31T11:31:20Z phoe: yes, because it'll create some confusion
2020-12-31T11:31:24Z phoe: pyc: the latter
2020-12-31T11:31:41Z phoe: compatibility is pretty important in the CL ecosystem
2020-12-31T11:31:56Z pyc: phoe: thanks! that is a lot of relief. i feel good about converting my python tools to CL now.
2020-12-31T11:32:31Z phoe: and a piece portable and conforming CL code should NEVER be broken by a change in the implementation, because it means that either there was a bug in the implementation, or there was a bug in the code
2020-12-31T11:33:04Z pyc: btw, anyone can help me understand what it means there is a lot of churn in many popular languages?
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2020-12-31T11:33:28Z phoe: I guess some people just like rewriting stuff in the newest version of the framework that will be obsoleted by a week from now
2020-12-31T11:33:30Z oni-on-ion: heisig, afaik CL has path things
2020-12-31T11:33:36Z phoe: s/by//
2020-12-31T11:34:27Z heisig: oni-on-ion: The path things in CL are a mess.  I think they even admitted that the CL standardization committee ran out of time when it came to paths and streams.
2020-12-31T11:34:30Z phoe: heisig: I saw such a thing some time ago, one second...
2020-12-31T11:34:33Z phoe: !
2020-12-31T11:34:38Z oni-on-ion: pyc, in that case above, churn i think is 'yak shaving'
2020-12-31T11:34:39Z phoe: https://github.com/fourier/ppath
2020-12-31T11:34:44Z pyc: phoe: oh, if that is what they mean churn, i absolutely hate that. i want to solve a problem, write a tool, and move on. after that I should just remain a happy user of the tool. i don't want to rewrite it again with whatever becomes fashionable in future.
2020-12-31T11:36:33Z oni-on-ion: pyc, yeah. main things about "other languages" (which is often referred to as 'Blub') which people complain -- each have compilation target (native, bytecode), libraries, package manager, release schedule, repository location, etc..
2020-12-31T11:36:34Z heisig: Thanks phoe.  Unfortunately this an implementation of Python's os.path library, which is already out of fashion.  I was told pathlib is the cool new thing.
2020-12-31T11:36:57Z oni-on-ion: what about this http://edicl.github.io/cl-fad/
2020-12-31T11:37:30Z susam: Yes! "I want to be a happy user of the tool," is exactly how I feel about programming in Common Lisp. I don't have the time to keep chasing the latest hotness. I would rather work on other important problems instead of rewriting stuff with the latest framework.
2020-12-31T11:37:49Z phoe: heisig: ...
2020-12-31T11:37:53Z phoe: no I mean uh
2020-12-31T11:37:58Z phoe: are you serious?
2020-12-31T11:39:02Z heisig: Serious about what?  That the Python fashion cycles last only about four years?  Dead serious :)
2020-12-31T11:39:08Z edgar-rft: oni-on-ion: cl-fad has turned out to be buggy, but stupidly I can't remember the details right now, Fare (author of UIOP) has written something about it
2020-12-31T11:39:17Z phoe: heisig: ....................
2020-12-31T11:39:41Z phoe: edgar-rft: cl-fad was kinda superseded by UIOP, according to UIOP authors
2020-12-31T11:39:56Z phoe: and, frankly, I like UIOP pathname stuff myself
2020-12-31T11:40:09Z phoe: never used it heavily, but it seems to Just Work™ all the time I use it
2020-12-31T11:41:29Z edgar-rft: phoe: there *were* problems with cl-fad, I myself had some with cl-fad and CLISP for example, I only can't remember what exactly
2020-12-31T11:41:48Z phoe: edgar-rft: wait, I meant that I like and used UIOP pathname stuff
2020-12-31T11:42:01Z phoe: I only used CL-FAD once or twice I think
2020-12-31T11:42:09Z easye: cl-fad's WALK-DIRECTORY doesn't have a direct replacement in UIOP I think.
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2020-12-31T11:43:01Z oni-on-ion: edgar-rft, ahh. *added to the oral history CLHS project*
2020-12-31T11:43:30Z edgar-rft: phoe: I meant it was not just simply superseded, there was a reason, that I stupidly can't remember :-(
2020-12-31T11:43:57Z oni-on-ion: "cliki" is a good place for the Oral Writ
2020-12-31T11:45:27Z phoe: easye: https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/files.html#traversing-walking-directories
2020-12-31T11:47:39Z easye: Alright.  There was something missing when I last looked from what I recall, but perhaps that is a false memory.
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2020-12-31T11:53:20Z oni-on-ion: https://github.com/franzinc?tab=repositories   --- they even supply an Emacs interface for Alleg?
2020-12-31T11:53:34Z oni-on-ion: I remember ordering the Allegro demo CD for linux, mid 90s
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2020-12-31T12:08:08Z oni-on-ion: it looks to me as if ASDF and UIOP are part of the SBCL distro
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2020-12-31T12:08:32Z oni-on-ion: those two in -- /usr/local/lib/sbcl/contrib/ -- the rest are sb-*
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2020-12-31T13:18:04Z pfdietz: I'm going through various lisp repos in quicklisp in descending order of popularity to see how well tested they are.  I'm on cl-fad right now.
2020-12-31T13:22:25Z oni-on-ion: how testing? their individual test suites ?
2020-12-31T13:22:43Z pfdietz: Yes.
2020-12-31T13:22:51Z jackdaniel: when I'm defining a method that is specialized directly on the class (not on the name) -- what are the risks?
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2020-12-31T13:23:21Z jackdaniel: (compared to specializing on the name that is)
2020-12-31T13:23:26Z pfdietz: (1) Do they even HAVE a test suite?  (2) How well does it cover their code?  (3) (to come) How well does it kill deliberately introduced bugs?
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2020-12-31T13:28:29Z pfdietz: It appears to have the same behavior as just using the class name, if you redefine the class (or, if you set find-class on the name to nil and then redefine the class).
2020-12-31T13:28:33Z jackdaniel: ah, "Can't use anonymous [or undefined] class as constant", that's the gotcha
2020-12-31T13:28:58Z pfdietz: Ah, you were talking about an EQL specializer
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2020-12-31T13:29:12Z jackdaniel: no, about the class used as a specifier
2020-12-31T13:29:19Z pfdietz: That's allowed.
2020-12-31T13:30:08Z pfdietz: I suspect that could not be used in file compiled code though.  Need to try that.
2020-12-31T13:30:26Z jackdaniel: yes, but when you load the fasl, the class is looked by name it seems
2020-12-31T13:30:40Z scymtym: "anonymous" in the error message suggests that the class in question does not have a name or is not associated with a name in the global environment. could that be the problem?
2020-12-31T13:31:02Z pfdietz: Right.  You also can't use function objects as constants in file compiled code, as they cannot be serialized out.
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2020-12-31T13:31:13Z scymtym: (which different from being able to use the class instance as opposed to its name as a specializer)
2020-12-31T13:31:17Z scymtym: *which is
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2020-12-31T13:32:44Z jackdaniel: I'm experimenting with ways for forward-referencing classes, so they may be finalized with a different name. if that's the only issue, then I can ensure that there is always a name
2020-12-31T13:32:58Z jackdaniel: (with a different name and a different metaclass, depending on circumstances)
2020-12-31T13:33:24Z jackdaniel: so the important part is that there always must be a name
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2020-12-31T13:35:31Z jackdaniel: I'm still pondering the forward referencing issue in McCLIM; I think that I have a solution which will work fine
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2020-12-31T13:56:04Z pfdietz: You can give a class more than one name.   (setf (find-class 'name2) (find-class 'name1))
2020-12-31T13:56:28Z phoe: depends on what you mean by "name"
2020-12-31T13:56:35Z oni-on-ion: whoa
2020-12-31T13:56:37Z phoe: is it the symbol by which you find-class?
2020-12-31T13:56:46Z phoe: or the value of class-name when called on a class object?
2020-12-31T13:56:48Z jackdaniel: setf find-class installs the class in the environment, there is one slot class-name though
2020-12-31T13:57:30Z pfdietz: (eql (find-class 'name1) (find-class 'name2)) ==> T
2020-12-31T13:59:55Z pfdietz: You can also reach a state where (find-class (class-name <class object>) nil) ==> nil
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2020-12-31T14:01:04Z jackdaniel: (and that's the state where fasl refuses to get loaded when such class object is a specializer)
2020-12-31T14:01:22Z oni-on-ion: would it be possible to remove stuff , and save image?
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2020-12-31T14:01:47Z jackdaniel: like a class? you'd need to remove all references to it
2020-12-31T14:01:53Z jackdaniel: i.e methods
2020-12-31T14:02:02Z jackdaniel: and environment(s) entries etc
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2020-12-31T14:03:37Z phoe: and subclassses
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2020-12-31T14:06:23Z oni-on-ion: interesting
2020-12-31T14:06:51Z oni-on-ion: a pruning can be done
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2020-12-31T14:21:23Z pfdietz: Classes also show up in the DIRECT-SUBCLASSES slot of their immediate superclasses.  That will keep them from being gced, even if the association the the name is lost.
2020-12-31T14:22:31Z pfdietz: with the
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2020-12-31T14:32:53Z oni-on-ion: interestiong
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2020-12-31T15:28:35Z pve: I'd be interested in learning how to cleanly delete a class (that has no subclasses). My current best-effort solution is to remove the subclass link from the superclass, then remove all methods associated with the class, and finally do (setf (find-class 'myclass) nil).
2020-12-31T15:29:12Z pve: Could this be enough?
2020-12-31T15:29:44Z pve: I'm unsure of the environment entries jackdaniel mentioned..
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2020-12-31T15:37:14Z beach: That might work.
2020-12-31T15:37:56Z oni-on-ion: pve, and then call a gc?
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2020-12-31T15:43:27Z pve: beach: ok great, thanks
2020-12-31T15:44:03Z pve: oni-on-ion: yes, or just wait for it to happen
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2020-12-31T16:10:28Z heisig: pve: You could also attach a finalizer to check whether your class is actually being collected.
2020-12-31T16:11:57Z oni-on-ion: ^ nice idea to add. always had this idea of being able to prune a lisp image
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2020-12-31T16:17:42Z pve: heisig: great idea!
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2020-12-31T16:44:12Z pve: While we're on the subject, there wouldn't happen to be a way to cleanly delete a structure-class? SBCL at least lets me do (closer-mop:remove-direct-subclass (find-class 'structure-object) (find-class 'mystruct)), but can it be relied on?
2020-12-31T16:44:49Z phoe: yes
2020-12-31T16:44:54Z phoe: mop remove-direct-subclass
2020-12-31T16:44:54Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/remove-direct-subclass.html
2020-12-31T16:45:22Z phoe: this works on all classes
2020-12-31T16:46:40Z pve: that's interesting
2020-12-31T16:48:04Z pve: thanks phoe
2020-12-31T16:50:45Z phoe: in particular, structure-classes are classes
2020-12-31T16:50:52Z phoe: so the default method is going to work well on them
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2020-12-31T17:06:46Z Xach: I wonder if access will be fixed by the original maintainers
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2020-12-31T17:10:31Z phoe: a sharplispers fork coming in 3... 2... 1...
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2020-12-31T17:12:07Z jackdaniel: bom, millenium clock error
2020-12-31T17:12:13Z jackdaniel: start counting from 1979 again
2020-12-31T17:12:30Z jackdaniel: 1970*
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2020-12-31T17:13:21Z phoe: 3... 2... 1... 0... 18446744073709551615... 18446744073709551614...
2020-12-31T17:13:39Z contrapunctus: lmao
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2020-12-31T17:17:47Z slyrus_: morning
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2020-12-31T18:14:16Z makomo: does anyone know why (interactive-stream-p *standard-input*) is false in SLIME?
2020-12-31T18:14:32Z makomo: (at least for me it is)
2020-12-31T18:16:10Z makomo: (also, using sbcl)
2020-12-31T18:16:34Z makomo: when running sbcl on the side (i.e. not as an emacs inferior process), running the same form from sbcl's repl returns true
2020-12-31T18:17:57Z aeth: via the REPL... (interactive-stream-p *standard-input*) => T
2020-12-31T18:18:08Z aeth: via SLIME... (interactive-stream-p *standard-input*) => NIL
2020-12-31T18:18:16Z aeth: So it's a SLIME bug, if that's not intentional
2020-12-31T18:18:35Z aeth: file a bug here? https://github.com/slime/slime/
2020-12-31T18:18:54Z makomo: yep, that's what i wanna know, is it a bug or not. i would have expected it to return T
2020-12-31T18:19:05Z makomo: maybe i should ask in #slime instead of opening a bug right away
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2020-12-31T18:29:19Z White_Flame: one of the possible implementation-dependent criteria of interactive streams is the "normal input editing", which I don't think the stream perceives?
2020-12-31T18:29:53Z White_Flame: (but that's very interpretive)
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2020-12-31T18:41:05Z jackdaniel: ~/win 2
2020-12-31T18:43:20Z _death: pfdietz: hey.. was that PR meant for me?
2020-12-31T18:45:48Z gendl: Is Bordeaux Threads originally made by beach? Is that where the name comes from?
2020-12-31T18:47:46Z _death: the initial commit (and project description on cl.net) mentions bordeaux-mp by Dan Barlow
2020-12-31T18:48:38Z phoe: gendl: I recall beach mentioning it to me
2020-12-31T18:48:55Z phoe: AFAIR it is because the first version of the library was written in Bordeaux
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2020-12-31T19:04:08Z edgar-rft: maybe the library was influenced by lots of Bordeaux wine :-)
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2020-12-31T19:20:43Z slyrus_: shka_: around?
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2020-12-31T19:46:15Z pfdietz: _death: yes, I pushed up a tweak to your modified copy of cffi
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2020-12-31T19:46:49Z pfdietz: (which we are using with tree-sitter)
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2020-12-31T19:47:43Z shka_: slyrus_: yeah
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2020-12-31T19:48:02Z pfdietz: That tweak reduced the run time of that by about 10%.   eql hash tables are much faster than equal hash tables, I think because they can cache based on the previous key.
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2020-12-31T19:51:00Z slyrus_: shka_: thanks for the comments on the github issues. I'll check out the rr thing. We need to focus on the developer experience. I'd like to make sure that we have easily understandable examples a la those on the teddy README page.
2020-12-31T19:52:53Z shka_: agreed
2020-12-31T19:53:03Z shka_: i will write some examples
2020-12-31T19:53:44Z shka_: especially since i may or may not broke it yesterday :-)
2020-12-31T19:54:23Z shka_: i mean, it will work fine as long as the lambda-list of bind-row is empty
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2020-12-31T20:02:27Z shka_: slyrus_: also, i presume that you find my explanation to be workable
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2020-12-31T20:19:19Z _death: pfdietz: well, it looks good to me (there's some extra whitespace & commented code though).. I can merge it, but perhaps you should also send a PR to cffi maintainers
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2020-12-31T20:32:37Z shka_: slyrus_: btw, any thoughts on the filter?
2020-12-31T20:33:05Z shka_: I wanted to suggest implementing it by assuming that it needs to be in bind-row
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2020-12-31T20:39:57Z shka_: slyrus_: i added docstrings for those slots in the STANDARD-HEADER
2020-12-31T20:40:00Z shka_: hope that helps
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2020-12-31T20:47:06Z benjamindc: Every time I reload a file in the REPL in which I've used defconstant I get the redefinition warning. Is it possible to muffle this warning in my .sbclrc?
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2020-12-31T20:53:03Z shka_: benjamindc: there is a better way to do so
2020-12-31T20:54:44Z shka_: benjamindc: alexandria provides define-constant as a solution to this specific issue
2020-12-31T20:54:57Z shka_: just don't forget to provide proper test
2020-12-31T20:54:59Z phoe: ^
2020-12-31T20:55:12Z shka_: phoe: good evening phoe
2020-12-31T20:55:22Z phoe: hey shka_
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2020-12-31T20:55:50Z contrapunctus: .o(`define-constant`? What is this, Scheme? 😏)
2020-12-31T20:56:42Z shka_: contrapunctus: heh, yeah
2020-12-31T20:57:13Z shka_: but alexandria is so common that it very well be considered sudo standard
2020-12-31T20:57:25Z shka_: so here you
2020-12-31T20:57:26Z benjamindc: thank you shka_ I'll check that out
2020-12-31T20:57:26Z shka_: go
2020-12-31T20:57:32Z shka_: benjamindc: you are welcome
2020-12-31T20:58:31Z shka_: actually alexandria is based on utils described in "on lisp" and the author of the book is a notorious schemer
2020-12-31T20:58:52Z shka_: so it kinda makes sense that some of it bleeds into alexandria
2020-12-31T20:59:19Z jackdaniel: define-constant is a very nice lispy name, I don't find it more schemish than lispish
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2020-12-31T21:00:13Z jackdaniel: (define-condition, define-symbol-macro, define-method-combination, define-anything-what-is-not-defsmth-due-to-backward-compatibility)
2020-12-31T21:00:26Z shka_: don't forget about car
2020-12-31T21:00:32Z shka_: ;-)
2020-12-31T21:00:42Z shka_: and most importantly caaddr
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2020-12-31T21:12:11Z slyrus_: shka_: refresh my memory about the filter thing. We're talking about the macro I wrote yesterday, right?
2020-12-31T21:12:20Z shka_: yup
2020-12-31T21:12:40Z slyrus_: what's the question again :) ?
2020-12-31T21:13:14Z shka_: no question, just wanted to suggest that assuming that filter is supposed to be placed inside bind-row would make that macro significantly simpler
2020-12-31T21:13:45Z shka_: or rather
2020-12-31T21:13:51Z shka_: make it simple
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2020-12-31T21:13:59Z slyrus_: I see. My point is I want a macro that doesn't require bind-row :)
2020-12-31T21:14:26Z shka_: i was under that impression, yes
2020-12-31T21:14:52Z shka_: and i wanted to suggest something
2020-12-31T21:14:55Z slyrus_: bind-row is nice and efficient and all but I think we should provide "wrapper" functions that hide its use for things like filter.
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2020-12-31T21:15:38Z shka_: slyrus_: i think that i need to study the real world use cases of filter
2020-12-31T21:15:51Z shka_: if filter is part of some longer sequence
2020-12-31T21:16:09Z shka_: it would probably be ok to assume that it needs bind-row variables
2020-12-31T21:17:09Z shka_: and perhaps write some macro that works accepts table, bind-row lambda-list and bind-row body as it's own &body
2020-12-31T21:17:39Z shka_: then you could write (filter ...)(something-else)(filter)(something-else)
2020-12-31T21:18:28Z slyrus_: if we take for a moment that we want something dplyr-ish (which is reasonable for my needs), the things I use a lot are the various df/tibble creation routines, select, filter, mutate, rename, inner_join, arrange, pivot_..., etc...
2020-12-31T21:18:51Z slyrus_: I'd like to see an interface like that exposed to developer/users that would presumably use bind-row under the covers
2020-12-31T21:19:18Z shka_: since drop-row performs non-local-exit, you can just stick every operations in bind-row
2020-12-31T21:19:45Z shka_: slyrus_: if one would really want to make it compact, i think that reader macro is the solution
2020-12-31T21:20:15Z shka_: that would allow you to skip writing lambda-list whatsoever
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2020-12-31T21:20:33Z slyrus_: Why do we need a reader macro for that?
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2020-12-31T21:21:02Z slyrus_: Don't get me wrong, bind-row is cool and there are certainly going to places to use it, but I'd like to see a higher level interface as well.
2020-12-31T21:21:10Z shka_: slyrus_: this would allow writing stuff like
2020-12-31T21:21:17Z shka_: for instance
2020-12-31T21:21:28Z slyrus_: not quite following
2020-12-31T21:21:51Z shka_: [(filter (> @column-name 0.5))]
2020-12-31T21:22:00Z shka_: instead of
2020-12-31T21:22:25Z shka_: (bind-row (column-name) (filter (< column-name 0.5)))
2020-12-31T21:23:13Z slyrus_: and why can't we just write (filter table (< column-name 0.5)) ?
2020-12-31T21:24:16Z shka_: well, how we can distinguish before a local variable and a column?
2020-12-31T21:24:47Z shka_: *between
2020-12-31T21:25:33Z slyrus_: This is a good question. dplyr has it's approach to this that works reasonably well. The poorly-articulated question that's running around my mind is can we do better in the lisp world given the tools at our disposal?
2020-12-31T21:25:49Z shka_: i really don't think so
2020-12-31T21:26:17Z shka_: without the first-class envs this seems to be destined to be hacky
2020-12-31T21:27:00Z shka_: but on the other hand, people are used to writing (lambda (something other-thing) ...) so why not imitate lambda?
2020-12-31T21:27:04Z shka_: that was the idea with bind-row
2020-12-31T21:27:32Z shka_: or, as i mentioned, add reader-macro
2020-12-31T21:29:35Z shka_: slyrus_: i personally consider this to be a minor inconvenience
2020-12-31T21:30:18Z shka_: let's just avoid imitating pandas
2020-12-31T21:30:39Z shka_: i don't agree with it's api design even a little bit
2020-12-31T21:31:28Z shka_: however, i a agree that higher level functionality is welcome
2020-12-31T21:31:44Z shka_: let's just not get too clever about it :-)
2020-12-31T21:36:38Z shka_: slyrus_: ok, have a good day, i will be online tomorrow
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2020-12-31T22:03:25Z slyrus_: shka_: ok, thanks. happy new year!
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