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2020-11-01T02:14:39Z dbotton_: I read recent that order of arguments is not guaranteed to be evaluated left to right. Is this the case in modern implementations as well?
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2020-11-01T02:15:00Z Bike: no, in lisp the arguments are evaluated left to right. that's part of the language definition.
2020-11-01T02:15:12Z Bike: scheme does not make such a guarantee, though
2020-11-01T02:15:33Z Bike: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.3
2020-11-01T02:15:33Z specbot: Function Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababc.htm
2020-11-01T02:15:35Z Bike: fourth paragraph
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2020-11-01T02:19:03Z dbotton_: so if have pop from a stack for each argument the
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2020-11-01T02:19:24Z dbotton_: guarantee is that they will pop left to right?
2020-11-01T02:19:47Z Bike: correct.
2020-11-01T02:20:01Z dbotton_: ok. thank you
2020-11-01T02:20:06Z Bike: (let ((x '(0 1))) (values (pop x) (pop x))) => 0, 1
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2020-11-01T02:22:36Z dbotton_: I found a few things off is an older book Object Oriented Common Lisp
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2020-11-01T02:30:18Z Bike: well, it's probably clearer not to rely on left to righ tevaluation order, anyway
2020-11-01T02:30:36Z Bike: i had a compiler bug once that lost this guarantee, and the only problem it caused was in some 80s code
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2020-11-01T02:51:22Z edgar-rft: Bike: did the problems go away when to 90s came? :-)
2020-11-01T02:51:41Z Bike: unfortunately, the 80s code was LOOP
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2020-11-01T02:52:16Z edgar-rft: so the program got stuck in the 80s forever?
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2020-11-01T04:12:31Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-01T07:47:33Z easye: Mornin' all.
2020-11-01T07:47:49Z easye: A question about "NaN" values...
2020-11-01T07:48:03Z beach: Hello easye.
2020-11-01T07:48:13Z easye: Re: <https://github.com/armedbear/abcl/issues/342>
2020-11-01T07:48:29Z grumboo is now known as grumble
2020-11-01T07:48:37Z easye: ANSI CL has no serialization of "not a number" representations, right?
2020-11-01T07:49:46Z beach: Does it even have the concept at all?
2020-11-01T07:49:52Z ck_: I don't think so, no
2020-11-01T07:49:53Z easye: I don't think so.
2020-11-01T07:50:15Z easye: Alright.  Then this is something leaking from ABCL's using the JVM float tower underneath.
2020-11-01T07:50:20Z easye: Thanks for the clarification.
2020-11-01T07:51:49Z aeth: if you can get a NaN on an implementation, something like this is usually how you get it: (float-features:with-float-traps-masked t (/ zero zero)) ; where zero is 0s0 or 0f0 or 0d0 or 0l0 depending on which one you want
2020-11-01T07:52:02Z easye: aeth: chekc.
2020-11-01T07:52:06Z aeth: this won't work in every implementation that float-features supports
2020-11-01T07:52:11Z easye: Right.
2020-11-01T07:52:26Z easye reads up on float features again.
2020-11-01T07:53:00Z ck_: beach: by the way, does SICL have a fload reader already?
2020-11-01T07:53:04Z aeth: the file is https://github.com/Shinmera/float-features/blob/master/float-features.lisp
2020-11-01T07:53:17Z easye: aeth: thanks.
2020-11-01T07:53:49Z beach: ck_: I don't remember.
2020-11-01T07:56:30Z beach: SICL uses Eclector, but as I recall, Eclector doesn't have a float reader.
2020-11-01T07:58:35Z aeth: easye: and it doesn't look like float-features would support that for ABCL because it will keep :overflow and :underflow
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2020-11-01T08:00:14Z aeth: easye: you might still be able to get it with bits-single-float/bits-double-float/etc., though. This assumes you know an IEEE NaN's bits and it's using IEEE
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2020-11-01T08:00:24Z aeth: it still might error, though...
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2020-11-01T08:09:26Z easye: aeth: I think I will just patch ABCL's compiler to refuse to compile to a fasl containing a representation of a
2020-11-01T08:09:36Z easye: "Nan" to be in line with SBCL/CCL here.
2020-11-01T08:10:12Z easye: If someone wants to use the serialization of NaN for soemthing, they should use Shinmera's FLOAT-FEATURES.
2020-11-01T08:11:07Z aeth: the only problem is that FLOAT-FEATURES has an official way to get infinities but not NaNs
2020-11-01T08:11:25Z easye: Ah.
2020-11-01T08:12:45Z aeth: The two ways (with-float-traps-masked and bits-whatever-float) are hacks that won't work everywhere, although they can't really work everywhere.
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2020-11-01T08:16:51Z easye: I've asked the reporter of the bug for more feedback on if they actually wanted to "do" something with such a serialization, so we'll see if there is a deeper purpose other than nicely capturing a bug in ABCL's compiler.
2020-11-01T08:18:03Z aeth: oh, you're the main ABCL developer
2020-11-01T08:18:16Z easye is guilty.
2020-11-01T08:18:20Z aeth: so if float-features can't produce a NaN in ABCL like it can in SBCL and iirc CCL, you could fix that
2020-11-01T08:18:33Z aeth: if producing a NaN is something you want
2020-11-01T08:18:49Z easye: right.
2020-11-01T08:18:50Z aeth: I've only ever needed that for implementing the +nan.0 and -nan.0 literals in Scheme, on top of CL
2020-11-01T08:18:58Z aeth: not much else use for a NaN
2020-11-01T08:19:31Z easye: I don't see much use, but then again, I ain't deep in some program that needs to be careful with floats.
2020-11-01T08:20:20Z aeth: well, there are other times you might need to read a NaN, like various data formats that allow you to encode NaN
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2020-11-01T08:21:13Z easye: The bug reporter (reb) is at GOOG working on protobufs from what I understand, so that might be part of the motivation here.
2020-11-01T08:22:05Z aeth: I mean, if you read NaN from a data format, the first thing you want to do is drop it... but you might not want to drop it while reading it, since that's kind of combining different parts of your program in one place
2020-11-01T08:22:24Z easye nods.
2020-11-01T08:30:26Z aeth: Okay, I just tested CCL. My (/ zero zero) way to get a NaN (and then I use (- nan) to flip it if I want a "negative" NaN if it's "positive") works in both CCL and SBCL.
2020-11-01T08:32:08Z aeth: So (with f as my local nickname for float-features) this is how I get +nan.0 and -nan.0 for Scheme in a way that currently works in SBCL and CCL: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/airship-scheme/-/blob/6f4e1c89a0f76910cd65fa67dc8fb3d42a2f4387/scheme-types.lisp#L178-201
2020-11-01T08:32:43Z aeth: It's inherently unportable, but if it fails, it'll just fail, probably at the 0/0 part, in which case those implementations just can't use that syntax for now.
2020-11-01T08:32:48Z ck_: I recall Java having some interesting choices about type promotion. Does casting NaN into an integer still yield 0?
2020-11-01T08:35:23Z aeth: SBCL seems to error with e.g. ROUND on a NaN even if it's with-float-traps-masked. That's unfortunate. Something amusing like 0 is more entertaining.
2020-11-01T08:43:21Z easye: ck_: RE: casting NaN into an integer still yield 0?  Just tested: yes, with openjdk11.
2020-11-01T08:44:29Z easye: That makes no sense at all.  Must be some sort of legacy behavior from the initial implementation.
2020-11-01T08:45:06Z ck_: easye: thanks for checking. I believe the specification had something along the lines of "casting a floating-point number downwards may never throw an exception"
2020-11-01T08:46:59Z easye: In the source code for java.lang.Double.NaN there is this comment: "equivalent to the value returned by  Double.longBitsToDouble(0x7ff8000000000000L)"
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2020-11-01T08:49:05Z ck_: yeah they speak of normalizing all possible representations of NaN in the specification as well, I'm trying to find what I seem to remember
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2020-11-01T08:50:01Z ck_: Paragraph 4.2 says "Any value of a floating-point type may be cast to or from any numeric type.", that may have been it
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2020-11-01T08:51:43Z ck_: ah, no, here it is more explicitly -- page 101 of https://cr.openjdk.java.net/~iris/se/11/latestSpec/java-se-11-jls-draft-diffs.pdf -- number 1, bullet point 1
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2020-11-01T09:05:48Z easye: ck_: Not sure I found your direct reference, but it seems like the cast of a NaN to integer zero is indeed a codified decision.
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2020-11-01T17:29:18Z gbr___: hello, is this channel still active?
2020-11-01T17:29:20Z Josh_2: yes
2020-11-01T17:29:23Z pj__: yes
2020-11-01T17:29:27Z gbr___: sweet!
2020-11-01T17:29:33Z Josh_2: underscore gang
2020-11-01T17:29:42Z gbr___: haha indeed
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2020-11-01T17:30:02Z pj__: hey
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2020-11-01T17:34:28Z phoe: constantly active
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2020-11-01T17:35:03Z phoe: like, not 100% of the time, but there's hundreds to thousands of posts daily - you can see the channel logs for activity - see the channel topic for logs
2020-11-01T17:35:14Z Josh_2: hundreds of thousands aye
2020-11-01T17:35:44Z phoe: well maybe not that much
2020-11-01T17:37:42Z Josh_2: gbr___: this community is small but quite active, and friendly
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2020-11-01T17:50:20Z pj__: Is lisp still used?
2020-11-01T17:50:27Z Josh_2: What kind of question is that?
2020-11-01T17:50:35Z phoe: yes, it is
2020-11-01T17:50:53Z gbr___: of course it is
2020-11-01T17:50:54Z pj__: Nice
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2020-11-01T17:51:57Z gbr___: I am introducing pj to the world of irc and getting him back to the roots, it would be nice if he meets some real devs around here
2020-11-01T17:52:10Z Josh_2: some real devs?
2020-11-01T17:52:30Z gbr___: well you will understand what I mean if you see the quality devs in his area
2020-11-01T17:52:49Z phoe: am I a real dev if I wrote some non-trivial amount of Lisp code in the last year
2020-11-01T17:53:05Z Josh_2: obviously not phoe /s
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2020-11-01T17:53:35Z gbr___: well are you a real dev if you don't even know how to code without using a well know framework and use stackoverflow 10 times per second?
2020-11-01T17:53:42Z Josh_2: ah
2020-11-01T17:53:44Z Josh_2: javascript
2020-11-01T17:53:47Z gbr___: hahaha
2020-11-01T17:53:52Z gbr___: oh well
2020-11-01T17:54:07Z gbr___: btw I am wondering, how many here heard of fravia?
2020-11-01T17:54:07Z Josh_2: thats more of a #lispcafe topic :P
2020-11-01T17:54:16Z gbr___: indeed
2020-11-01T17:54:31Z _death: fravia's dead
2020-11-01T17:54:37Z gbr___: is he?
2020-11-01T17:54:40Z gbr___: kidding
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2020-11-01T17:55:01Z gbr___: well at least you heard of him
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2020-11-01T18:00:32Z pj__: #lispcafe
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2020-11-01T18:06:00Z phoe: yes, this is #lispcafe material
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2020-11-01T18:08:53Z markasoftware: Say I have a fairly deep system of classes (class one instantiates class 2, which instantiates several class 3s, which instantiates several class 4s, maybe close to a dozen levels). I want people using the library to be able to easily replace one of the inner classes with their own, without changing all the classes above it. Is there any good pattern for this?
2020-11-01T18:09:28Z phoe: by "replace", what do you mean? that they should be able to provide their own class names? keyword arguments?
2020-11-01T18:09:31Z flip214: markasoftware: replace or extend?
2020-11-01T18:09:31Z markasoftware: I cannot simply store class names in class 1 because class 1 only directly knows about class 2
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2020-11-01T18:09:42Z markasoftware: Extend I guess
2020-11-01T18:10:10Z flip214: if it's just about "extend", you can always do CHANGE-CLASS afterwards and eg. change a class instance to a subclass
2020-11-01T18:10:38Z flip214: so people could inherit from your "default" classes, you just need a protocol to say "change the instance on level 3 to my class X"
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2020-11-01T18:11:05Z flip214: or you have a special with the class names, and people can override that locally
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2020-11-01T18:14:11Z markasoftware: huh, i've never heard of change-class before!
2020-11-01T18:14:22Z markasoftware: I don't really need to change existing instances though
2020-11-01T18:14:50Z phoe: the simplest way would be to (defvar *level-2-class* 'standard-level-2-class) and have people rebind that
2020-11-01T18:14:56Z phoe: same for all others
2020-11-01T18:15:13Z markasoftware: I guess that would work
2020-11-01T18:17:20Z markasoftware: It would be cool if all the methods written on class 7 took classes 1-6 as arguments, so it could specialize on them
2020-11-01T18:17:36Z markasoftware: so by changing the parent class, you could modify the behavior of all the children classes
2020-11-01T18:17:47Z Josh_2: well you can do that with generics
2020-11-01T18:18:00Z markasoftware: but then all the methods of class 7 need to take 7 arguments minimum which is a pita
2020-11-01T18:18:08Z flip214: markasoftware: that sounds a bit uncommon, can you explain a bit more what you're doing?
2020-11-01T18:18:11Z Josh_2: why not just send them as a list?
2020-11-01T18:18:25Z flip214: Josh_2: because DEFMETHOD specialization
2020-11-01T18:18:39Z flip214: markasoftware: why do all lower methods need to know about upper classes?
2020-11-01T18:19:26Z flip214: are there really 7 instances or 7 parent classes?
2020-11-01T18:20:03Z markasoftware: i'm just writing a web application. There's something like server->stores several sections->stores several pages->stores several page parts (eg, header, footer, etc)
2020-11-01T18:20:12Z flip214: if there are 7 instances with HAS-A relationships, storing the parent instance in the child class and dispatching via a slot with per-class storage might be easier?
2020-11-01T18:20:42Z markasoftware: i want to make it easy to change the render-header method, for example.
2020-11-01T18:20:48Z flip214: but why do they need to know about the parent classes?
2020-11-01T18:21:19Z markasoftware: well if you put in a custom `header` class, you wouldn't
2020-11-01T18:21:46Z markasoftware: but another way is just to keep the same class then specialize on the top-level server class, so that way you can change the behavior of render-header without changing the `header` class if tha tmakes any sense
2020-11-01T18:22:36Z flip214: is that about "rendering" like HTML vs. JSON vs. XML output or so?
2020-11-01T18:22:46Z markasoftware: yeah
2020-11-01T18:23:21Z flip214: well, then you need _one_ output object, or just different output stream types - JSON-STREAM, HTML-STREAM, XML-STREAM
2020-11-01T18:23:34Z flip214: and all the rendering methods can specialize on that
2020-11-01T18:25:34Z markasoftware: sorry that's not quite what I meant. IT's always html
2020-11-01T18:25:48Z markasoftware: just if somebody wants to add an extra item to the header for example
2020-11-01T18:26:20Z flip214: well, then they could use their own class that derives from your class and have a :AFTER method
2020-11-01T18:26:27Z markasoftware: yeah
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2020-11-01T18:26:41Z markasoftware: the problem is how do they tell my server where to use their class in a large hierarchy
2020-11-01T18:27:07Z flip214: via specials, or a factory function
2020-11-01T18:27:08Z flip214 ducks
2020-11-01T18:28:46Z markasoftware: well that's two recommendations for special variables now
2020-11-01T18:28:51Z markasoftware: I guess i'll look into that more seriously
2020-11-01T18:29:16Z markasoftware: thanks for listening to me describe my mediocre setup
2020-11-01T18:29:42Z Alfr: markasoftware, there was also the suggestion to pass in a list of class-names, I think.
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2020-11-01T18:32:12Z Alfr: markasoftware, that be more explicit and thereby make it easier to test/find bugs.
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2020-11-01T18:34:31Z pve: markasoftware: could you have a set-header-instance function specialized on the root object?
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2020-11-01T18:56:11Z pj_: what is lisp used for?
2020-11-01T18:56:38Z phoe: pj_: everything, it's a general purpose programming language
2020-11-01T18:57:04Z Josh_2: It's a very good one at that :P
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2020-11-01T19:12:56Z gbr___: is anyone here freelancing with lisp?
2020-11-01T19:13:28Z Inline: depends i suppose
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2020-11-01T19:33:55Z Josh_2: I wish
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2020-11-01T21:11:23Z sm2n: I found a typo in the hyperspec: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_when_.htm#unless
2020-11-01T21:11:43Z sm2n: says test-form yields false twice
2020-11-01T21:12:17Z luis: sm2n: how do you feel?
2020-11-01T21:12:29Z Josh_2: I have found typos before
2020-11-01T21:13:08Z sm2n: a little bit betrayed
2020-11-01T21:13:17Z sm2n: ;)
2020-11-01T21:13:37Z luis: sm2n: will you stop using unless? :)
2020-11-01T21:14:39Z sm2n: does this make it undefined behaviour to use unless with a test-form returning 't
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2020-11-01T21:15:59Z sm2n: well, the notes clarify it, so it's probably ok
2020-11-01T21:16:30Z momozor: hi
2020-11-01T21:17:49Z Josh_2: hey
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2020-11-01T21:33:51Z _death: sm2n: https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata
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2020-11-01T21:56:08Z sm2n: oh, good to know
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2020-11-02T03:23:48Z dbotton: why did CLOS introduce a new term slots? For example could have called them fields from structures etc
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2020-11-02T03:41:22Z Mixed_Case: Hey all, I've got a slightly funky question.  I've been playing around with a function that wraps FUNCALL.  Let's call it SLOT-FUNCALL.  Instead of a function, it takes an object and a slot name.  It accesses the named slot of the object and the does a FUNCALL on the result.  The objects it operates on are assumed to be immutable.  So, if the
2020-11-02T03:41:23Z Mixed_Case: object and slot name are known at compile time, I want to perform the lookup at compile time and emit a direct call to the function instead.  I wrote a compiler macro that does that, but it gets a bit funky.  Suppose the result of the slot lookup is the symbol BAR.  If I just emit (BAR) then it might actually call a local function of the same name.
2020-11-02T03:41:23Z Mixed_Case: That would be behaviorally different from the (FUNCALL 'BAR) that would have happened normally.  So, that's not kosher.  I could emit a FUNCALL form, but SBCL doesn't seem to want to do things like respect INLINE declarations for FUNCALLs of symbols.  What's the easiest pattern for emitting a function call to the global function value for a symbol
2020-11-02T03:41:24Z Mixed_Case: that won't be effected by lexical context and permits all normal optimizations to happen?
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2020-11-02T04:02:53Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-02T04:06:01Z beach: Mixed_Case: (funcall (fdefinition 'bar) ...)
2020-11-02T04:07:32Z Mixed_Case: beach, yeah, but are implementations allowed to inline BAR when they encounter that call?  Getting a call to the global definition is easy.  I want a call that is equivalent to (BAR) in a nil lexical environment
2020-11-02T04:08:15Z beach: I think your only possibility is to give it a different name then, like a gensym.
2020-11-02T04:08:23Z beach: At least I can't think of anything else.
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2020-11-02T04:13:42Z Mixed_Case: I guess I'll just have to add it to my wish list for "things that I want the next revision of CL to address".  You know, in case Santa is feeling pretty generous one year and decides to re-convene the standards committee
2020-11-02T04:14:27Z beach: There is not going to be a next revision of the standard.
2020-11-02T04:14:31Z Mixed_Case: I know
2020-11-02T04:14:32Z White_Flame: yeah, I've been fiddling in my repl, and I agree with beach that if the point is to have a unique name that can't be shadowed, and act as a full defun, the proper solution is defun gensym
2020-11-02T04:14:34Z Mixed_Case: But I can dream
2020-11-02T04:15:48Z beach: Like I keep saying over and over, language design is hard, and adding a single feature may very well break lots of things.
2020-11-02T04:16:32Z Mixed_Case: @beach White_Flame definitely, but its a bit awkward for my use case.  The symbol is provided by someone else.  I'd want to generate the wrapper function automatically, and that gets pretty awkward quickly.  At least, for my use case it does
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2020-11-02T04:18:34Z Mixed_Case: Anyway, inlinability isn't super important.  I just thought it was a fun challenge.  I don't think there is a clean solution to the challenge, so I'm going to just go with a simple (FUNCALL 'BAR) and be content with it
2020-11-02T04:19:22Z White_Flame: since it doesn't need to be dynamic, a defun'd gensym is "clean" as well
2020-11-02T04:19:37Z White_Flame: (meaning all is set up just once at compile time)
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2020-11-02T04:20:47Z Mixed_Case: Gets awkward if I don't know the lambda list of the target function, though!  I could take in a &REST and then APPLY the target function, but now I have to hope that the macro generating the gensym'd DEFUN is in a nil lexical environment!
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2020-11-02T04:21:31Z Mixed_Case: also, even if I knew the lambda list, I would have to hope that the DEFUN I output is evaluated in a nil lexical environment
2020-11-02T04:21:50Z Mixed_Case: As best I can tell, there's no way to do it without a sharp edge somewhere
2020-11-02T04:22:03Z Mixed_Case: other than just giving up on inlining, that is
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2020-11-02T04:46:43Z beach: Mixed_Case: Why don't you look up the symbol-function at compile time?
2020-11-02T04:47:00Z beach: Then you get (funcall <some-function> ...)
2020-11-02T04:47:11Z beach: I am sure SBCL can inline that.
2020-11-02T04:47:30Z White_Flame: nope
2020-11-02T04:47:36Z beach: Oh, OK.
2020-11-02T04:47:44Z White_Flame: tried multiple variations on that
2020-11-02T04:48:11Z White_Flame: and of course, with `(funcall ,(symbol-function ...)) it doesn't have a make-load-form for the function object
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2020-11-02T04:48:27Z Mixed_Case: Yep!  I tried that
2020-11-02T04:48:29Z beach: Sure.
2020-11-02T04:48:59Z beach: Mixed_Case: Rather than working on a new revised standard, you may want to work on SBCL then.
2020-11-02T04:49:10Z White_Flame: inlining really is just for named functions
2020-11-02T04:49:19Z beach: I see.
2020-11-02T04:49:37Z Mixed_Case: @beach it wouldn't be my first patch to SBCL!
2020-11-02T04:49:38Z White_Flame: (which again points to the gensym solution)
2020-11-02T04:50:17Z Mixed_Case: I have been trying to get more acquainted with its internals
2020-11-02T04:50:34Z beach: Great!
2020-11-02T04:50:49Z Mixed_Case: its tough, though.  SBCL is complex!  You wouldn't happen to know a good intro to SBCL's shenanigans would you?
2020-11-02T04:51:01Z White_Flame: there is a #sbcl channel for the devs
2020-11-02T04:51:26Z beach: Mixed_Case: Me?  No, I am working on a different implementation. :)
2020-11-02T04:52:53Z White_Flame: (ah, you're already in that channel, too)
2020-11-02T04:53:37Z Mixed_Case: @beach which implementation are you working on?
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2020-11-02T05:05:33Z beach: minion: Please tell Mixed_Case about SICL.
2020-11-02T05:05:34Z minion: Mixed_Case: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2020-11-02T05:06:13Z Mixed_Case: Ooo
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2020-11-02T09:00:36Z _death: dbotton: CLOS did not introduce the term "slot".. it was introduced much earlier, and used for example in https://web.media.mit.edu/~minsky/papers/Frames/frames.html
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2020-11-02T09:10:23Z luis: Mixed_Case: https://research.gold.ac.uk/id/eprint/2336/1/sbcl.pdf might not be a bad intro
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2020-11-02T09:19:56Z easye: Mornin'  Anyone know how to wrangle ASDF to give me the simple list of dependent systems for a given systems wrt. the current *FEATURES*? <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2107#2107>
2020-11-02T09:21:33Z flip214: easye: does ql-dist:dependency-tree help?
2020-11-02T09:22:11Z easye: flip214: I will check that now.  Thanks!  I looked first at ioa's grapher but that only very lightly goes into the jungle of ASDF.
2020-11-02T09:24:24Z easye: Unfortunately, ql-dist:dependency-tree "just" seems to be walking its own database, not the ASDF graph.  But I will study harder...
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2020-11-02T09:31:06Z flip214: easye: is the ASDF graph different?
2020-11-02T09:32:10Z easye: asd-graph has a slightly different mandate, and it is parsing ASDF syntax directly rather than interrogating the ASDF model.
2020-11-02T09:35:50Z easye: Alright, I got something that looks like it will work for a generic ASDF system in the wild <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2107#2107>
2020-11-02T09:36:07Z easye: To paraphrase Barbie "ASDF is hard"
2020-11-02T09:36:56Z madnificent: easye: XD
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2020-11-02T09:47:31Z Nilby: easye: Maybe something like this: (mapcar (_ (asdf/find-component:resolve-dependency-spec (asdf:find-system "some-system" nil) _)) (asdf:system-depends-on (asdf:find-system "some-system" nil)))
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2020-11-02T09:48:08Z Nilby: easye: er actually (mapcar (lambda (x) (asdf/find-component:resolve-dependency-spec (asdf:find-system "some-system" nil) x)) (asdf:system-depends-on (asdf:find-system "some-system" nil)))
2020-11-02T09:48:10Z easye: I think <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2107#2107> now does what I want.
2020-11-02T09:48:47Z Nilby: Nice.
2020-11-02T09:49:41Z easye: ASDF should export something like this, mebbe I can patch it when I have time.
2020-11-02T09:50:07Z Nilby: I agree. I could use this too.
2020-11-02T09:51:00Z easye: Nilby: If ya got the cycles, please feel free to submit a merge request.  I'm busy a) fixing abcl-1.8.0 and b) pursuing a standalone pgloader.jar
2020-11-02T09:52:05Z zacts: is abcl the common lisp interpreter that runs on android?
2020-11-02T09:52:31Z phoe: abcl runs on the JVM
2020-11-02T09:52:34Z easye: And in the "wishlist for what should be done", ASDF could use a tutorial/more documentation on how to parse system dependencies.
2020-11-02T09:52:42Z zacts: oh
2020-11-02T09:52:45Z zacts: I see
2020-11-02T09:52:48Z easye: zacts: Unfortunately no.  I think that is ECL?
2020-11-02T09:52:56Z zacts: ok
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2020-11-02T09:54:10Z dim: I'm not sure it's the same thing that I wanted for ASDF, but it looks like what you're doing here easye could be useful: I wanted to convince ASDF to avoid loading again pgloader dependencies when started from the pgloader image and loading pgloader from sources (for installing/shipping a bug fix)
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2020-11-02T09:54:46Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/hooks.lisp contains a sad state of things I tried that didn't work
2020-11-02T09:54:48Z easye: dim: I think what you want could be done.
2020-11-02T09:55:36Z Nilby: easye: I'll see what I can do. I'm going to test it in my dependency tree thingy. Then perhaps I'll try to overcome my phobia and backlog of asdf patches.
2020-11-02T09:55:45Z easye: It isn't easy to understand if it could be done by manipulating *FEATURES* changed in ASDF defs, or if one would need to override ASDF operatios.
2020-11-02T09:55:46Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/133 for context / information
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2020-11-02T10:00:21Z easye: dim: Your statement above is much clearer to me that issues/133, but I know what you want.
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2020-11-02T10:02:20Z dim: issue 133 is from someone who tried to compile/load pgloader using pgloader image rather than SBCL ; the pgloader image contains SBCL and all pgloader dependencies, so it should work in theory, but ASDF dependency resolution insists on finding .asd files so if you don't have a “lisp hacker” setup you can't re-load pgloader from sources using the pgloader image
2020-11-02T10:02:22Z Nilby: --self-upgrade seems like an ambitious but excellent feature
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2020-11-02T10:03:01Z dim: it looked easy to provide when I got to understand that you actually have the whole of SBCL in the image of save-lisp-and-die
2020-11-02T10:03:13Z dim: but ASDF got it the way
2020-11-02T10:03:41Z easye: dim:  In that case, one can probably manipulate the ASDF source registry programatically to do what you want.
2020-11-02T10:04:22Z easye: It is possible to push a new dependency graph in memory, and tell ASDF to ignore searching the filesystem.
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2020-11-02T10:08:14Z easye: And one can use ASDF:CLEAR-SYSTEM to remove existing problematic references.
2020-11-02T10:08:40Z dim: well I think I failed to learn how to do that
2020-11-02T10:09:02Z dim: IOW it sounds like a good way to do it, yes
2020-11-02T10:10:02Z Nilby: dim: There must be a way. Of course probably the crucial part is as noted, not reloading c libraries like ssl and mysql.
2020-11-02T10:10:36Z dim: the mysql driver used by pgloader is all CL code: qmynd
2020-11-02T10:10:40Z easye: ASDF:CLEAR-SYSTEM won't nuke CFFI entries to shared object.
2020-11-02T10:11:18Z dim: protocol level implementation of the mysql protocol, missing MySQL 8.0.1 new default authentication ; if you like playing with low-level bits API and hashing algorithms, please see about fixing that ;-)
2020-11-02T10:11:42Z easye: You'll have to special-case that (if possible, as I am not sure how all implementation actually implement CFFI's code to remove shared objects)
2020-11-02T10:11:43Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/782
2020-11-02T10:12:49Z dim: openssl is its own hell loop, be warned
2020-11-02T10:13:43Z dim: security principles push towards depending on a solid shared implementation; still I wish someone would implement a pure CL modern TLS stack just like they did in Go
2020-11-02T10:15:41Z _death: cl-tls is a start
2020-11-02T10:18:41Z dim: it's a dream, not even a plan yet, or it has changed in the past year or two... last I had a look, actually trying to use it in your application was not on the roadmap (yet?), it was at the state of “if you feel adventurous you might do some interactive https connects with it”
2020-11-02T10:20:07Z flip214: re-implementing is prone to fall in the same specification traps as all the other implementations... and might give rise to all kinds of compatibility problems
2020-11-02T10:20:52Z dim: sometimes I feel like I should invest in one of the proprietary CL offerings and have a binary download section of pgloader with builds from either LispWorks or Allegro, at a high price, if it just works I guess some people would go ahead and buy it --- the ABCL .jar thing would be an alternative to that
2020-11-02T10:21:12Z _death: dim: if no one does the work, it doesn't get done
2020-11-02T10:21:30Z dim: _death: I know. I had to package 60+ CL libs for debian. I know.
2020-11-02T10:22:23Z dim: the great news is that I'm left with 48 apparently now (https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?email=dim%40tapoueh.org), the others have been re-assigned from me to a proper maintenance team!
2020-11-02T10:23:20Z Nilby: Wow, as individual debian packages that's quite an accomplishment.
2020-11-02T10:23:22Z dim: _death: all I'm saying is that shipping software written in CL is hard, very hard, still so in 2020
2020-11-02T10:23:27Z easye: dim: the ABCL thing will be slow to load.
2020-11-02T10:23:47Z dim: using CL for your own local hacks, or within the CL community, is a great experience
2020-11-02T10:24:00Z dim: using CL to ship software, I'm not sure I want to do it again :/
2020-11-02T10:24:49Z dim: easye: is that because the .jar is not going to be a zip file of .class bytecode?
2020-11-02T10:24:53Z _death: dim: these issues are not specific to CL.. that's why things like flatpak exist
2020-11-02T10:25:55Z easye: dim: no, the root problem is that ABCL is still quite slow to load *any* code.  It has to pass a bunch of bytes to the classloader, which has to verify, then add.
2020-11-02T10:26:21Z easye: I have some ideas about how to speed this up, but no practical implementations at this point.
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2020-11-02T10:27:04Z dim: yeah well, I have only shipped software in a handful of stacks: C, Postgres extensions (mix of C, SQL, PLpgSQL), Common Lisp, and some in Python ; and CL has been the worst in every way you can think of, starting with the amount of efforts needed compared to the poor results (for a lot of people the result is *not* usable at all, I keep seeing users find other solutions that are half as good as pgloader, from their own reports, but easier to get working)
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2020-11-02T10:27:57Z dim: so I feel like I'm ranting here, sorry about that, I wish we had a known way to address those problems, and I would happily envision joining the team to make it happen
2020-11-02T10:28:25Z Nilby: Thats sad becuase pgloader is probably one of the most widely used CL program.
2020-11-02T10:28:39Z dim: easye: pgloader runs are from minutes (on very very small projects) to hours, up to several days, I don't think initial load time is going to matter that much
2020-11-02T10:29:29Z easye: dim: good.  That will help.  The ability to use JDBC might make it more useful to people.
2020-11-02T10:29:32Z aeth: days??
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2020-11-02T10:29:39Z dim: Nilby: most people realise it's written in CL because of SBCL messages that heap is exhausted
2020-11-02T10:29:55Z easye: aeth: databases can be huge these days.
2020-11-02T10:30:07Z easye: As disk and memory are so cheap.
2020-11-02T10:30:30Z dim: aeth: https://twitter.com/CommaFeed/status/568055592704716800
2020-11-02T10:30:46Z dim: aeth: https://pgloader.io/blog/continuous-migration/ for more context
2020-11-02T10:32:34Z dim: easye: the ability to use JDBC would allow me to stop maintaining qmynd and have a solution to authentication to Cloud MySQL instances, and also stop depending on FreeTDS(.so) for MS SQL and have native windows support, and also use JDBC Oracle drivers, etc etc ; basically removes the burden of finding/maintaining proper drivers for many databases
2020-11-02T10:33:52Z easye: dim: right.  But you would have to biurcate the lower levels of  pgloader into ABCL vs. others?
2020-11-02T10:34:09Z easye: Or would you just ship purely on ABCL?
2020-11-02T10:34:22Z dim: yes, I would have to maintain conditional build of the software when targetting ABCL, can't use JDBC otherwise
2020-11-02T10:34:45Z easye: So "stop maintaining" is more like "stop paying so much attention to"?
2020-11-02T10:34:51Z dim: I would have to first learn how to do that, or maybe just maintain two different ASD definitions, with one only for ABCL
2020-11-02T10:34:57Z dim: given the benefits, I would do it
2020-11-02T10:35:17Z dim: stop maintaining as in pushing the pgloader.jar more
2020-11-02T10:35:45Z dim: and then even playing with GraalVM to go from .jar to binary again if needed
2020-11-02T10:36:00Z easye: Cool.  I think we can subsume the existing ASDF definitions with ABCL: no need to maintain two completely separate descriptions.
2020-11-02T10:36:10Z dim: at least tap into a much wider community where the hard problems have been solved with an army of developers and testers and validated by many many users
2020-11-02T10:36:19Z easye: Yeah, GraalVM is one of the things I need to understand better.
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2020-11-02T10:36:52Z dim: when using the pgloader.jar channel I hope to stop loading openssl and use the JVM implementation of it, among other things
2020-11-02T10:37:11Z dim: basically anytime we load a .so in pgloader, I think we can stop doing it when targeting the JVM, right?
2020-11-02T10:37:22Z easye: ABCL runs on it when I last checked about a year ago, but it needs to use the abstractions to be more efficient.
2020-11-02T10:38:05Z easye: dim: no need to disable the .so stuff:  ABCL is a first class CFFI citizen.  It will allow us to test the difference between the two methods of accessing the wire protocols.
2020-11-02T10:38:26Z dim: I guess a target for me would be to continue using CCL/SBCL on my dev environment and have CI and public builds done as pgloader.jar, single file, just works
2020-11-02T10:39:18Z dim: the need to disable the .so loading is because it never actually works for users, I'd rather use proven native JVM solutions and avoid suprises
2020-11-02T10:39:18Z easye: Cool.  Lemme get back to pgloader.jar then.  Gotta run some errands in the next hour anyway.
2020-11-02T10:39:42Z dim: the software I like has the “just works” capability, that's what I have been missing with shipping CL software
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2020-11-02T10:40:04Z dim: easye: I have all the time in the world, and I very much appreciate your efforts, thanks a lot!
2020-11-02T10:40:05Z easye: It would be sweet if ABCL could give ya "just works
2020-11-02T10:40:19Z easye: But realistically its gonna take a couple months of work.
2020-11-02T10:41:10Z dim: yeah I'm cool with that, and might even find the time needed to hook in JDBC at the call sites, provide a new layer/implementation for drivers
2020-11-02T10:41:45Z Nilby: I appreciate both of your efforts!
2020-11-02T10:41:55Z easye: Yep.  I'd like to somehow thunk the drivers in a new layer.  In general the abstractions aren't that different.
2020-11-02T10:43:20Z easye: RE: couple months of work:  mostly in getting the packaging stuff nicely done.  And fixing bugs in ABCL, which should be pretty minor.
2020-11-02T10:44:36Z pve: dim: regarding your difficulties: have you considered documenting the specific pain points? That would probably be quite valuable.
2020-11-02T10:44:41Z easye: I intend to keep a "current" branch in somewhere like <https://github.com/armedbear/pgloader/tree/easye/abcl/current/20201102a>
2020-11-02T10:45:03Z easye: And we'll figure out how to merge when it starts doing something useful.
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2020-11-02T11:04:38Z dim: pve: it would be nice for the CL community and yet another way to push most people out of it, I reckon
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2020-11-02T11:27:16Z phoe: dim: push most people out of what?
2020-11-02T11:28:38Z dim: push people from tipping their toes in the CL world
2020-11-02T11:29:11Z dim: it's a fine world until you try to interact too much with the non-CL world
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2020-11-02T11:29:40Z phoe: don't know why that would be a problem; it would also be a good reason to improve the parts that interoperate with the non-CL world
2020-11-02T11:30:27Z phoe: it would be a deterrent only if it was written that way, e.g. as a rant
2020-11-02T11:30:33Z dim: time allowing I'll think of a draft and see where that leads me
2020-11-02T11:30:50Z phoe: sure, I'll be glad to review it
2020-11-02T11:30:58Z dim: frankly my mood is all about ranting nowadays so not the best for this exercise I guess
2020-11-02T11:32:22Z madnificent: phoe: I have your book!  \o/  yay!
2020-11-02T11:32:32Z dim: for instance I remember a colleague wanted to hack a little something on pgloader, but they didn't use Emacs and of course didn't want to have to ; SLIMV didn't work on their system, compiling pgloader with the Makefile would show lots of messages and not a single source file location (because it was hidden by buildapp --log ...), so much frustration, they never attempted to contribute again
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2020-11-02T11:33:27Z phoe: dim: write it as it is in your mind, derantification can happen between that and publishing
2020-11-02T11:33:55Z phoe: madnificent: <3
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2020-11-02T11:47:25Z pve: To be honest, I'd be more interested in reading the rant than the PC version. It can give a better sense of the trauma caused by the pain points :)
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2020-11-02T11:50:29Z _death: parenthetical advisory, explicit content
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2020-11-02T11:53:33Z dim: hehe
2020-11-02T11:56:26Z dim: ToC would be like: .so symbols at load-time, compile-time, run-time, CL and the dynamic loader are not friends ; debian social contract and packaging all source dependencies, current sad state of CL in debian (no one is using debian packages to develop CL software) ; save-lisp-and-die with buildapp, quicklisp, and all the bits ; releasing a source bundle for non-debian packaging ; how to build from source when you're not a CL user ; contributing without
2020-11-02T11:56:26Z dim:  Emacs/SLIME
2020-11-02T11:56:55Z dim: that'd be the main points that I can remember now, but if I want to be honest I would have to review past pgloader issues on github
2020-11-02T11:57:02Z dim: and some of the current ones too
2020-11-02T11:57:38Z dim: tl;dr: the happy place of Emacs/SLIME/Quicklisp is very hard to share with people who don't care about CL, and then it's a very sad place
2020-11-02T11:58:36Z dim: oh see, I didn't even mention “heap exhausted: game over” which my users are still hitting *a lot*
2020-11-02T11:59:15Z _death: what do you use all that memory for?
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2020-11-02T12:01:06Z dim: migrating whole databases from MySQL/MS SQL/SQLite/etc to Postgres, or loading CSV files etc
2020-11-02T12:01:38Z dim: it's all streamed and split in batches, so really, I don't know why SBCL has a hard time
2020-11-02T12:02:07Z dim: same data load can be exploding the heap in SBCL while working fine at 400MB used all along in CCL
2020-11-02T12:02:14Z dim: of course it's twice as slow in CCL
2020-11-02T12:02:27Z phoe: is this the difference between precise and conservative GC?
2020-11-02T12:02:29Z dim: now if you can track that down to the code I have written and am maintaining, I will fix it
2020-11-02T12:03:02Z dim: phoe: it's a practical difference of memory behavior of CCL and SBCL, I don't know more
2020-11-02T12:03:26Z phoe: I know that SBCL has a conservative GC while CCL as a precise one; that's all I know about them
2020-11-02T12:03:49Z Nilby: It's so very easy to run out of the default heap.
2020-11-02T12:04:34Z dim: pgloader defaults to being built with a 4GB heap on 64 bits (linux) platforms
2020-11-02T12:04:58Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/Makefile#L9
2020-11-02T12:06:00Z _death: so you're saying it's because objects are not gced?
2020-11-02T12:06:36Z dim: I wish I knew how to answer that question, all I can say is that it looks like that yeah, in particular thanks to the Clozure memory profile for the same workload
2020-11-02T12:09:09Z _death: dim: did you investigate such a scenario (where you predict an upcoming heap exhausting) ?
2020-11-02T12:09:20Z _death: *exhaustion
2020-11-02T12:10:17Z dim: a long time ago I had a reproducer yeah, and tried to fix it in pgloader with sizing parameters for the queues and batches we keep in memory, but I failed to have any kind of memory profile or such, I just don't know how to do that
2020-11-02T12:10:36Z _death: sbcl does expose some interfaces for monitoring/controlling its garbage collector (see manual)
2020-11-02T12:11:44Z dim: I went as far as manually calling the gc when I think it's a good time for this to happen, to no avail
2020-11-02T12:12:07Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/pg-copy/copy-batch.lisp#L77
2020-11-02T12:12:55Z dim: that's where pgloader tries to be helpful to SBCL and calls (sb-ext:gc :full t)
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2020-11-02T12:14:04Z _death: well, that kind of programming by magic incantations doesn't work as often as we like ;).. best is to understand the actual cause first
2020-11-02T12:14:18Z dim: +1
2020-11-02T12:14:43Z dim: I asked for help again and again, and that's the best I came up with
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2020-11-02T12:19:24Z _death: you could look at sbcl's ROOM implementation and monitor the bytes used.. when it gets close to the dynamic space size, break into the debugger.. from there you're in a better position to find out what's going on
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2020-11-02T12:31:06Z jdz: dim: I'd first suggest reducing the value of sb-ext:bytes-consed-between-gcs (which, according to SBCL documentation, defaults to 5% of dynamic-space-size).
2020-11-02T12:32:22Z jdz: Or some other similar parameter related to generation sizes.
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2020-11-02T12:33:25Z jdz: Or maybe garbage is promoted to older generations too soon.
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2020-11-02T12:38:32Z phoe: still, the final GC before dying scans all generations in order to avoid crashing
2020-11-02T12:38:43Z phoe: so generations shouldn't be an issue
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2020-11-02T12:41:40Z _death: one small thing you can do, if you think it's the batches, is to set the slots in the structure to empty states
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2020-11-02T12:53:22Z pve: dim: Out of all the things you listed, I find the ones about building, deploying and contributing the most concerning, but that's just me.
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2020-11-02T12:56:22Z dim: _death: patches welcome ;-)
2020-11-02T12:56:45Z _death: dim: if only I had a database to pgload ;)
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2020-11-02T13:38:26Z dim: well the repository contains some SQLite things, though small ones
2020-11-02T13:38:49Z dim: if you want to find MySQL or MS SQL sample databases, that's also possible thanks to open data things too, but then it's more involved I guess
2020-11-02T13:39:09Z Xach: docker makes it a bit easier to set up such things
2020-11-02T13:39:38Z Xach: it simplifies the "download and configure postgres" bit, anyway
2020-11-02T13:43:08Z dim: ah yeah there's this part for you guys, for me I can't remember when I had a computer to use without Postgres being the first thing I would setup, or almost, and both from sources and packaged...
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2020-11-02T13:43:22Z dim: if you're using a mac, Postgresapp.com is very good by the way
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2020-11-02T13:44:18Z Xach: I use postgres a lot but sometimes I like to keep it contained/containerized if I'm testing something
2020-11-02T13:44:19Z _death: I don't have an actual use case at the moment.. I did play with postgres a while ago (the manual is pretty good) but sqlite serves my personal needs just fine..
2020-11-02T13:44:58Z dim: well Postgres is what I do mostly, CL is just for writing client app with Postgres in my use-case ;-)
2020-11-02T13:54:08Z Xach: Hmm, how can I get clozure CL for arm? (trying to run it on a pi 3b+)
2020-11-02T13:54:23Z phoe: Xach: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/releases/
2020-11-02T13:54:30Z phoe: linuxarm.tar.gz seems to be your target
2020-11-02T13:54:38Z Xach: oh, i searched for "arm" but failed
2020-11-02T13:54:40Z Xach: thank you
2020-11-02T14:02:31Z dim: these days you could also use SBCL I believe, right?
2020-11-02T14:02:42Z phoe: SBCL on ARM has no thread support, AFAIK
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2020-11-02T14:04:09Z flip214: phoe: sbcl on arm64 says :SB-THREAD in *FEATURES*
2020-11-02T14:04:39Z flip214: sbcl on arm32 has no threads, IIRC
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2020-11-02T14:08:23Z phoe: oh right! arm32 it is
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2020-11-02T14:42:50Z Josh_2: phoe: got my copy of CLCS today :)
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2020-11-02T14:47:23Z phoe: <3
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2020-11-02T14:59:02Z Xach: Great, I'm able to make api calls from my raspberry pi to the data aggregator for my weather station and can tell that it is cold and windy outside. The power of lisp!
2020-11-02T14:59:32Z Josh_2: Did you try a weather rock?
2020-11-02T14:59:42Z Xach: that's no way to refer to cmucl
2020-11-02T14:59:43Z Josh_2: bit primitive but I think they can also tell you if It's cold or windy ;)
2020-11-02T14:59:46Z Josh_2: xD
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2020-11-02T15:06:06Z ck_: I understand prefering alternatives to a weather rock. Those mostly require Windows to access.
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2020-11-02T17:16:56Z _death: array-rank-limit decreased from 65529 to 100.. what will I do with all my 666-dimensional arrays
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2020-11-02T19:25:35Z ane: oh sweet, CLCS is now on amazon.de
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2020-11-02T21:12:04Z aeth: _death: oh, wow, that's low enough that it proably breaks someone's code
2020-11-02T21:12:40Z aeth: CCL's is 4096... ECL's appears to be 64, though.
2020-11-02T21:14:08Z aeth: I guess what's more interesting is that it's not something like 128
2020-11-02T21:14:29Z phoe: aeth: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/commit/28645c1b71ffab6919edb400b2d95499533d1842#diff-2ec360a4bf96a2476fa746f9de96199c4b64bba05ddd05bab01950e168d86eb0R12-R14
2020-11-02T21:15:06Z jfb4: Xach: sorry for the late reply to <Xach> I think there's plenty of room for nicer tools but not the skill or time to make it. ---- do you have ideas for what would be cool to have as a predictive completion framework for Lisp?
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2020-11-02T21:18:31Z jmercouris: jfb4: I think you should investigate markov chains for predictive technologies
2020-11-02T21:18:44Z jmercouris: probably you will want to combine several models into a meta-model to have a good result
2020-11-02T21:18:50Z jmercouris: maybe even use hidden markov models instead
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2020-11-02T21:19:10Z aeth: phoe: honestly, that comment makes it worse. It should be 128 because when the human is a programmer and the number isn't a power of two, they get suspicious
2020-11-02T21:19:19Z aeth: ime, since I've also had arbitrary numbers that aren't a power of 2
2020-11-02T21:19:51Z jmercouris: I agree, make it 128
2020-11-02T21:20:09Z aeth: in my engine, every constant I set that isn't a power of 2 has or will get someone to comment on it
2020-11-02T21:20:23Z aeth: even though obviously in high level languages you don't really have to care about that
2020-11-02T21:21:48Z jmercouris: I actually am more partial to powers of 2 these days than things divisible by powers of 10
2020-11-02T21:21:52Z jfb4: jmercouris: thanks for the suggestion!
2020-11-02T21:22:28Z jmercouris: jfb4: no problem, it will be a very simple start, but you can use it as a basis, there is a lot you can do by simply selecting the right features, that is 99% of the work
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2020-11-02T21:22:47Z White_Flame: if it isn't a power of 2, it should be either a power of 2 minus 1, or a value used in 2^N
2020-11-02T21:23:27Z jfb4: thanks, the original problem was to do a version of 'kite' for Lisp.  I think it ought to be possible to do in Lisp, for the relevant cases.  The other cases are problably not needed in Lisp due to the concise nature / less boilerplate
2020-11-02T21:24:26Z jmercouris: jfb4: If you want to do kite for lisp, you can definitely just use markov chains to analyze all of the lisp codebases
2020-11-02T21:24:35Z jmercouris: you can then weigh the results based on markov chains of different lengths in a meta model
2020-11-02T21:24:40Z aeth: jmercouris: ime, the only time my brain enters powers-of-10 mode is metric
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2020-11-02T21:25:06Z jmercouris: you may want to do some sanitzation in your models (like removing package prefixes)- or not.
2020-11-02T21:25:16Z jmercouris: you will have to discover the right way to clean your source and select your features
2020-11-02T21:25:24Z jmercouris: this is the "art"
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2020-11-02T21:26:01Z jmercouris: aeth: same, though I sometimes think in 12, 64, etc because I grew up with imperial
2020-11-02T21:27:18Z aeth: well, 12 shows up a lot in math and arguably would've been a better numeric base before we moved to binary computers (since now base 8 or base 16 would make more sense)
2020-11-02T21:27:39Z aeth: Also in time... or really, anywhere where you want to have a lot of divisions. 12 is a better way to slice a pizza.
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2020-11-02T21:30:32Z aeth: This is #lisp and Common Lisp has rationals and the advantages to 12 are similar with inverses like 1/12, 1/3, 1/4, etc., so it still is somewhat relevant in CL, if you're working with fractions.
2020-11-02T21:33:33Z jmercouris: I have never really worked with fractions in CL, though I understand it has a lot of appeal to mathematicians
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2020-11-02T22:25:25Z Xach: jfb4: not offhand - i haven't used them and don't know what sorts of things might be useful.
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2020-11-02T23:32:34Z jfb4: Xach: thanks for considering the question
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2020-11-03T04:15:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-03T04:38:43Z Mixed_Case: Hey everyone!
2020-11-03T04:38:54Z beach: Hello Mixed_Case.
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2020-11-03T05:08:30Z billstclair: I'm retiring, but that doesn't mean I'll stop hacking lisp. I'll just work on what I want, not what someone else pays me for.
2020-11-03T05:10:02Z billstclair: First project: Slime in JavaScript  in the browser. Written in ClojureScript or Elm.
2020-11-03T05:11:40Z billstclair: It will initially use a <textarea>. Then I'll find or write an Emacs clone.
2020-11-03T05:13:43Z beach: Ambitious.
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2020-11-03T05:18:09Z Mixed_Case: ^
2020-11-03T05:18:17Z Mixed_Case: That sounds like its gonna take a while
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2020-11-03T05:32:26Z sm2n: is there a reason why a vector being adjustable is not expressed in its type?
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2020-11-03T05:51:23Z beach: sm2n: I can't think of any such reason, but then, I am not as good with programming-language design as the creators of the Common Lisp standard were (are?).
2020-11-03T05:55:05Z Mixed_Case: If I had to guess, they probably wanted to stick to things that would definitely be useful at compile time (e.g. dimension and content type)
2020-11-03T05:55:21Z Mixed_Case: things that could be checked at runtime are easy to retrofit using existing type system features
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2020-11-03T05:55:41Z Mixed_Case: (namely using the SATISFIES type)
2020-11-03T05:56:03Z sm2n: beach, I see
2020-11-03T05:56:13Z sm2n: Mixed_Case, it would still be useful
2020-11-03T05:56:22Z Mixed_Case: oh, I don't disagree
2020-11-03T05:56:43Z sm2n: in particular you could do things like (coerce a-list '(vector * adjustable))
2020-11-03T05:56:44Z Mixed_Case: but, language design is complex
2020-11-03T05:57:16Z sm2n: though it's easy to paper over these things with wrapper functions, so not a huge deal
2020-11-03T05:57:23Z Mixed_Case: yeah, that's what I was gonna say
2020-11-03T05:57:23Z sm2n: yeah, of course
2020-11-03T05:57:31Z Mixed_Case: seems like a hammer in search of a nail IMO
2020-11-03T05:57:46Z Mixed_Case: (using coerce for that purpose, that is)
2020-11-03T05:58:21Z sm2n: why? it's consistent with (coerce a-list 'vector)
2020-11-03T05:58:44Z Mixed_Case: just because you *can* express that info in the type doesn't mean that's the best solution
2020-11-03T05:58:54Z Mixed_Case: its the solution that's readily available given that function signature
2020-11-03T05:59:01Z sm2n: that's true
2020-11-03T06:00:28Z sm2n: well, all in all, it just feels a bit annoying, but it's not anything I would consider broken
2020-11-03T06:00:41Z Mixed_Case: that's how I feel about a bunch of corners of lisp
2020-11-03T06:00:55Z Mixed_Case: its got a bunch of janky parts, but I love it to death
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2020-11-03T06:03:42Z sm2n: oh, now that I check more closely, that's not all as useful as I thought it was
2020-11-03T06:04:34Z sm2n: it's having a fill pointer that gives you access to vector-push-extend, not whether it's "actually adjustable", which is what prompted this
2020-11-03T06:04:56Z Mixed_Case: well, a fill pointer lets you use vector-push
2020-11-03T06:05:10Z Mixed_Case: vector-push-extend is going to want both a fill pointer and adjustability
2020-11-03T06:06:19Z Mixed_Case: (but I have to imagine some implementations of vector-push-extend might not complain about non-adjustability until the vector needs adjusting!)
2020-11-03T06:06:20Z sm2n: no that's not true from what I can tell
2020-11-03T06:06:56Z Mixed_Case: > An error of type error is signaled by vector-push-extend if it tries to extend vector and vector is not actually adjustable.
2020-11-03T06:07:01Z Mixed_Case: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_vec_ps.htm
2020-11-03T06:07:18Z Mixed_Case: > vector-push-extend is just like vector-push except that if the fill pointer gets too large, vector is extended using adjust-array so that it can contain more elements. Extension is the minimum number of elements to be added to vector if it must be extended.
2020-11-03T06:07:45Z Mixed_Case: Looks like vector-push-extend should work until the vector is full regardless of adjustability
2020-11-03T06:08:40Z sm2n: oh I guess it's nonportable then
2020-11-03T06:08:46Z sm2n: simple test works on sbcl
2020-11-03T06:09:07Z easye: What's the contemporary way to recursively copy files on the filesystem?  CL-FAD?
2020-11-03T06:09:12Z Mixed_Case: are you seeing that a non-adjustable vector gets adjusted?
2020-11-03T06:09:35Z Mixed_Case: easye I'd definitely use CL-FAD
2020-11-03T06:09:36Z sm2n: reading the ADJUST-ARRAY page, it says you can resize even if your array isn't adjustable, but identity won't necessarily be preserved (it allocates a new thing)
2020-11-03T06:09:40Z sm2n: yes
2020-11-03T06:10:57Z sm2n: (progn (defparameter *a* (make-array 10 :element-type 'character :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable 'nil)) (loop :repeat 11 :do (vector-push-extend #\a *a*)))
2020-11-03T06:10:59Z sm2n: this works
2020-11-03T06:12:03Z Mixed_Case: hm.  Definitely seems like it shouldn't
2020-11-03T06:12:25Z sm2n: oh I see
2020-11-03T06:12:26Z sm2n: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_a.htm#actually_adjustable
2020-11-03T06:12:37Z sm2n: it's not a conforming program
2020-11-03T06:13:01Z sm2n: being "actually adjustable" seems to be implementation-dependent when not "expressly adjustable"
2020-11-03T06:13:08Z Mixed_Case: ah, that'd do it
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2020-11-03T06:13:20Z Mixed_Case: huh.  Usually SBCL hews pretty close to the standard
2020-11-03T06:13:38Z Mixed_Case: I'd have expected them to respect non-adjustable-ness
2020-11-03T06:13:43Z Mixed_Case: guess they don't HAVE to
2020-11-03T06:13:55Z Mixed_Case: but they go out of their way to detect all sorts of errors they don't have to, either...
2020-11-03T06:14:18Z Mixed_Case shrugs
2020-11-03T06:14:28Z sm2n: well good to know I guess
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2020-11-03T06:17:29Z sm2n: oh, that might answer the original question actually
2020-11-03T06:17:43Z sm2n: since you probably wouldn't want an implementation-dependent type
2020-11-03T06:18:10Z Mixed_Case: aren't implementations not obliged to specialize arrays based on type, either?
2020-11-03T06:18:11Z beach: SICL vectors are all both simple and adjustable.
2020-11-03T06:18:19Z beach: That is allowed by the standard.
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2020-11-03T06:20:48Z sm2n: really? does that mean that implementations are not required to support displacing arrays?
2020-11-03T06:20:59Z sm2n: well, vectors
2020-11-03T06:22:30Z sm2n: >  If make-array is called with one or more of adjustable, fill-pointer, or displaced-to being true, whether the resulting array is a simple array is implementation-dependent.
2020-11-03T06:22:31Z sm2n: huh
2020-11-03T06:22:39Z sm2n: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_mk_ar.htm#make-array
2020-11-03T06:23:05Z Mixed_Case: that's definitely news to me
2020-11-03T06:23:10Z Mixed_Case: but.. cool, I guess?
2020-11-03T06:23:14Z sm2n: so an array being simple doesn't actually tell you much
2020-11-03T06:23:27Z Mixed_Case: yeah.  What does simple even mean?
2020-11-03T06:23:55Z beach: sm2n: I don't think so.  What makes you think that is the case?
2020-11-03T06:24:04Z easye: Simple means not-displaced not-adjustable
2020-11-03T06:24:18Z beach: easye: It does not.
2020-11-03T06:24:32Z easye: beach: ok.
2020-11-03T06:24:36Z beach: But not displaced and not adjustable means simple.
2020-11-03T06:24:42Z sm2n: beach, I had it in my head that displaced arrays were not simple, but that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case
2020-11-03T06:25:08Z easye: not-displaced not-adjustable no fill pointer?
2020-11-03T06:25:38Z beach: I forget exactly, but the standard says that it must be simple if some restrictions apply.
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2020-11-03T06:25:49Z sm2n: so as a user of the language, isn't whether an array is simple or not pretty much a useless distinction?
2020-11-03T06:25:54Z beach: It does not say anything about what happens when those restrictions do not apply.
2020-11-03T06:25:58Z sm2n: beach, easye: I linked it above
2020-11-03T06:26:16Z beach: Thanks.
2020-11-03T06:27:24Z sm2n: > The type of an array that is not displaced to another array, has no fill pointer, and is not expressly adjustable is a subtype of type simple-array. The concept of a simple array exists to allow the implementation to use a specialized representation and to allow the user to declare that certain values will always be simple arrays.
2020-11-03T06:27:31Z sm2n: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/t_smp_ar.htm#simple-array
2020-11-03T06:27:42Z sm2n: ok, this makes sense
2020-11-03T06:29:40Z sm2n: or not quite, I suppose it's an abstraction for some kind of implementation dependent efficient representation, but it doesn't seem all that useful
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2020-11-03T08:47:01Z ioa: easye, I did have some plans to go deeper in the ASDF jungle, but never got time for it and asd-graph is still really superficial.
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2020-11-03T08:51:03Z ioa: billstclair: re Emacs/Slime on the browser => lovely idea! Have you considered compiling to WebAssembly via some toolchain?
2020-11-03T08:51:50Z billstclair: I'll consider it if it's too slow, but I doubt it will be.
2020-11-03T08:54:09Z ioa: looking forward to it. Is there a website/repository to watch?
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2020-11-03T09:12:49Z billstclair: ioa: You have prompted me to create the repository. Nothing there yet but a readme, but it's a start. https://github.com/billstclair/iSlime
2020-11-03T09:14:16Z ioa: thank you billstclair! I put it on my watchlist. :)
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2020-11-03T09:28:34Z easye: ioa: asd-graph is a lovely piece of code for its results.  ASDF internals are notoriously difficult for most people to grok, so be happy you got something working.  If I had the time I would help it out be actually interrogating the in-memory ASDF graph rather than parsing the forms directly as it now does.
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2020-11-03T09:29:03Z easye: (a totally understandable implementation choice given the dense thickets of ASDF internals you'd otherwise have to bushwhack)
2020-11-03T09:32:57Z ioa: thanks easye! Well I did discuss some of the issues with Robert Goldman a couple of years ago, and I seem to remember I wrote down a strategy on how to get a system's dependencies. So it's just the lack of time/priorities on other projects that have hindered this. :)
2020-11-03T09:33:38Z ioa: * from ASDF
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2020-11-03T12:28:09Z ld: good evening
2020-11-03T12:28:14Z ld is now known as ldb
2020-11-03T12:28:41Z cohnjalvin777: a
2020-11-03T12:28:50Z phoe: cohnjalvin777: interesting, tell me more
2020-11-03T12:29:03Z cohnjalvin777: ()
2020-11-03T12:29:07Z phoe: :(
2020-11-03T12:29:09Z phoe: okay
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2020-11-03T12:30:02Z cohnjalvin777: (islifeworthit)
2020-11-03T12:30:04Z cohnjalvin777: T
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2020-11-03T12:42:48Z ldb: does popular common lisp compilers does the divmod optimization? that calling mod with div for the same pair of numbers together reuses the value left in the registers?
2020-11-03T12:43:15Z Bike: you can just get both values at once with the floor, etc functions.
2020-11-03T12:43:15Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 8 hours, 19 minutes ago: If I want to make Matter_O a subclass of cl:sequence - how would I do that?
2020-11-03T12:44:01Z Bike: if you want to do integer division you'll be using floor or something anyway, rather than /
2020-11-03T12:45:02Z flip214: the questions is which CL compilers translate (FLOOR x INTEGER) to a multiplication and shift?
2020-11-03T12:45:37Z Bike: i think the question is whether compilers merge (values (floor x y) (mod x y)) into (floor x y), more or less
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2020-11-03T12:49:49Z phoe: this should be answerable by means of DISASSEMBLE
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2020-11-03T12:50:44Z Bike: i'm just not too concerned about it since, again, lisp does not have an integer division operation that doesn't also give you the remainder
2020-11-03T12:50:58Z Bike: (values (floor x y) (mod x y)) is not code anybody writes
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2020-11-03T12:53:05Z Bike: or if they do they can just be told to write floor instead.
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2020-11-03T16:13:45Z adlai: cliki Scieneer Common Lisp
2020-11-03T16:14:10Z adlai: ... even were minion still searching cliki, it appears that this implementation has evaporated.
2020-11-03T16:14:58Z adlai: although my current decade's project is financial software, this consists almost entirely of general-purpose libraries for scientific computing, and I am quite saddened to see that Scieneer has vanished.
2020-11-03T16:15:46Z adlai: in additional terrible news, domain name registration of the website hosting Henry Baker's archived works of research has expired.
2020-11-03T16:16:28Z adlai: I hope that copies of the publications themselves, or at the very least, the innovations described within, remain in existence.
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2020-11-03T16:16:56Z adlai: a handful of the papers are still accessible in various Internet Archives, although I have not bothered to spider the entire site.
2020-11-03T16:17:07Z adlai over;
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2020-11-03T17:41:52Z shka_: Xach: Question: what amount of memory you are using for building quicklip projects?
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2020-11-03T18:30:55Z flip214: I just saw USOCKET:IP= and similar stuff; is there a function that says whether an IPv4 or IPv6 is in some subnet? 127.0/24, fccc::/16, etc.
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2020-11-03T18:40:36Z Alfr: flip214, iirc, simply apply that n-bit mask to to your subnet specification and the ip at hand and compare that they are equal, on of which you may be able to precompute and reuse.
2020-11-03T18:40:54Z Alfr: s/on of/one of/
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2020-11-03T18:53:20Z flip214: Alfr: yeah, thanks, I know the theory. But IP and netmask as string vs. octet vector, length of netmask depending on ipv4/v6, short-hand "::" etc.... that's why I asked
2020-11-03T18:54:49Z Alfr: I hate parsing things too. :) Thought to provide a short solution, didn't look into usocket.
2020-11-03T18:56:37Z flip214: well, usocket at least could do the parsing
2020-11-03T18:56:42Z flip214: thanks anyway!
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2020-11-03T19:06:10Z Xach: shka_: --dynamic-space-size 4000
2020-11-03T19:06:52Z shka_: Xach: thanks for the answer
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2020-11-03T19:09:52Z Xach: shka_: what prompts the question?
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2020-11-03T19:44:33Z nij: Noob question.. how to get my hands on with commonlisp? I have a script to study: https://github.com/stylewarning/cl-permutation , but I don't know how to run it.
2020-11-03T19:45:05Z nij: I know a bit of elisp, and can interact with elisp thanks to emacs. I'm looking for an interface for common lisp too.
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2020-11-03T19:46:24Z pve: nij: if you're comfortable with emacs, then you should install slime and use that
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2020-11-03T20:01:49Z nij: pve: thanks! I have it running in my emacs. I've also loaded the main file (`cl-permutation.asd`) into slime. But it does not automatically load the lisp files in ``src``.. did I do anything wrong?
2020-11-03T20:02:58Z pve: nij: try (require :cl-permutation)
2020-11-03T20:04:11Z nij: (require :cl-permutation)
2020-11-03T20:04:11Z nij: ASDF could not load cl-permutation because
2020-11-03T20:04:11Z nij: Component #:ALEXANDRIA not found, required by #<SYSTEM "cl-permutation">.
2020-11-03T20:04:44Z pve: you should symlink the asd file to a directory in your load path also, or make sure that the entire source folder is in the load path
2020-11-03T20:05:26Z pve: if you have quicklisp you should do (quicklisp:quickload :cl-permutation), it will download the dependencies
2020-11-03T20:05:58Z pve: ~/common-lisp is in the load path by default, i think
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2020-11-03T20:10:20Z nij: no luck :(
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2020-11-03T20:20:00Z edgar-rft: nij: sorry, don't know what the specific problem is, but in case of doubt -> https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Configuring-ASDF.html#Configuring-ASDF
2020-11-03T20:21:40Z pve: nij: you must ensure that the shell command "sbcl --quit --eval '(quicklisp:quickload :cl-permutation)'" works before you start doing anything with slime (I'm assuming SBCL here)
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2020-11-03T20:50:55Z nij: thanks folks. I'm still trying. I'm sure after this phase it will be fun.
2020-11-03T20:52:18Z nij: Oh JEEZ it works T__T
2020-11-03T20:52:25Z nij: Thank you so much.
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2020-11-03T22:19:24Z asarch: What does "The return value of DELETE should not be discarded." mean?
2020-11-03T22:19:57Z phoe: asarch: exactly what it states
2020-11-03T22:20:05Z Bike: it means you're doing something like (progn (delete x y) y) and expecting y to be the list sans x
2020-11-03T22:20:12Z phoe: you should not use DELETE for side effects
2020-11-03T22:20:16Z Bike: i.e. relying on delete to have a particular side effect.
2020-11-03T22:20:29Z phoe: rather, you should use its return value
2020-11-03T22:20:30Z asarch: I have: (defparameter *food*) (setf *food* (append *food* '(tacos pizza tlayudas))) and later (delete 'tacos *food*)
2020-11-03T22:20:49Z sm2n: that's bad
2020-11-03T22:20:51Z Bike: so you're calling delete for effect, yeah. don't do that.
2020-11-03T22:21:03Z asarch: (setf *food* (delete 'pizza *food*))
2020-11-03T22:21:04Z phoe: (setf *food* (delete 'tacos *food*))
2020-11-03T22:21:04Z asarch: ?
2020-11-03T22:21:06Z sm2n: you need (setf *food* (delete 'tacos *food*)) instead
2020-11-03T22:21:09Z sm2n: heh
2020-11-03T22:21:10Z Bike: it is perfectly fine for an implementation to define delete = remove, so it has no side effects at all.
2020-11-03T22:21:10Z asarch: Ok
2020-11-03T22:21:20Z phoe: or (alexandria:deletef *food* 'tacos)
2020-11-03T22:21:43Z phoe: DELETEF can be used for side effects
2020-11-03T22:22:23Z asarch: I see
2020-11-03T22:22:26Z asarch: Thank you guys
2020-11-03T22:22:32Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2020-11-03T22:25:55Z mokulus: Why is this like this?
2020-11-03T22:26:48Z mokulus: if it's a linked list then why do you need to reassign?
2020-11-03T22:27:10Z White_Flame: because the head can be no longer where the head used to be
2020-11-03T22:27:22Z White_Flame: what if the first element is deleted?
2020-11-03T22:28:03Z Bike: the standard gives implementations considerable leeway over what side effects can occur. any side effects are intended cocneptually as an increased performance thing, rather than being part of the semantics.
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2020-11-03T22:28:21Z phoe: (let ((list (list 1))) (delete 1 list) list)
2020-11-03T22:28:32Z Bike: you can e.g. contrast this with nconc, which has very specifically defined side effects, and so can be used for those reliably
2020-11-03T22:28:49Z phoe: there's no way the variable LIST can become NIL.
2020-11-03T22:29:28Z White_Flame: A -> (1 . (2 . NIL))
2020-11-03T22:29:47Z White_Flame: DELETE 1 from that list, DELETE returns the (2 . NIL) cell, A still points to the (1 . ...) cell
2020-11-03T22:30:32Z White_Flame: but it's even more apparent when you do things like destructive SORT or NREVERSE
2020-11-03T22:30:32Z phoe: a crazy enough implementation of DELETE could set the CAR of the first cons to 2 and its CDR to NIL, but no one really does that
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2020-11-03T22:30:51Z autumn[m]: who was/what did Henry Baker work on/research? Sorry, I'm just one of those irritating curious people.
2020-11-03T22:30:52Z mokulus: so the problem is really that there are no empty lists
2020-11-03T22:30:55Z asarch: (setf *food* (if add-food (append *food* some-new-value) (delete some-food *food))
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2020-11-03T22:31:06Z asarch: Much better, isn't?
2020-11-03T22:31:10Z phoe: sure
2020-11-03T22:31:10Z White_Flame: mokulus: the problem is that the variable still points to stale cons cells
2020-11-03T22:31:19Z White_Flame: there certainly are empty lists
2020-11-03T22:31:24Z White_Flame: each proper list ends with one
2020-11-03T22:31:35Z asarch: That's why I love Common Lisp!
2020-11-03T22:31:38Z phoe: autumn[m]: it seems like lots of Lisp research in general
2020-11-03T22:31:51Z phoe: I can quote one famous article - https://web.archive.org/web/20160305112101/http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
2020-11-03T22:32:00Z Bike: i actually have no idea what baker's institutional affiliation(s) are
2020-11-03T22:32:06Z Bike: not totally sure he's still alive, even
2020-11-03T22:32:22Z Bike: c2 wiki has a note "Can anyone figure out Baker's biography"
2020-11-03T22:33:07Z autumn[m]: Oh interesting! Thanks.
2020-11-03T22:33:17Z Bike: i mean, he's retired at least, i think
2020-11-03T22:33:22Z phoe: autumn[m]: https://web.archive.org/web/20200212080133/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/
2020-11-03T22:33:35Z phoe: this seems like a sorta comprehensive list of papers
2020-11-03T22:34:19Z Gnuxie[m]: baker is a real life badass
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2020-11-03T23:07:37Z asarch: One stupid question: Common Lisp classes are not fist class objects, right?
2020-11-03T23:07:45Z Bike: no, they are
2020-11-03T23:07:58Z Bike: try (find-class 'integer) or something, you get an object back. can put it in lists or whatever
2020-11-03T23:09:12Z asarch: Thank you
2020-11-03T23:10:45Z phoe: types are not first class objects; classes are
2020-11-03T23:11:30Z phoe: so, like, the type KEYWORD is not a first-class object, but the class SYMBOL is one
2020-11-03T23:16:55Z pillton: What is required to make a type a first class object?
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2020-11-03T23:18:49Z p_l: Implementation magic
2020-11-03T23:19:17Z phoe: and extensions to the standard behavior
2020-11-03T23:19:22Z p_l: AFAIK nothing stops a conforming CL implementation from doing that (I think SICL might have gone that way?)
2020-11-03T23:19:30Z phoe: e.g. you'd like to be able to pass type objects to TYPEP
2020-11-03T23:19:41Z pillton: You can pass type objects to typep.
2020-11-03T23:19:43Z phoe: (typep 1 (find-type 'integer))
2020-11-03T23:19:43Z Bike: sicl hasn't done that
2020-11-03T23:19:49Z phoe: pillton: huh? what do you mean?
2020-11-03T23:19:57Z phoe: you can't pass type objects because there are no type objects
2020-11-03T23:20:10Z Bike: classes are type objects, sorta, but obviously not all types are classes
2020-11-03T23:20:13Z phoe: type specifiers are not type objects
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2020-11-03T23:20:58Z pillton: Hmm.. a type specifier defines a representation in much the same way a class does.
2020-11-03T23:21:09Z Bike: a type specifier has names and is environment dependent
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2020-11-03T23:21:22Z Bike: it is a "specifier", after all, not the type itself
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2020-11-03T23:21:51Z pillton: You can test equality. You can test if one is a subtype of another.
2020-11-03T23:22:14Z Bike: you can test the equality of the specified types. you can't get at the actual type. all you have is a name
2020-11-03T23:22:19Z Bike: it's as if instead of classes you had to use class names
2020-11-03T23:23:20Z pillton: Sure, I get that the representation is poor, but what can't you do with it that you can with something that has "first class" status?
2020-11-03T23:23:36Z Bike: validly use it in any way without providing the environment
2020-11-03T23:23:46Z phoe: describe and inspect it
2020-11-03T23:24:46Z phoe: like, calling DESCRIBE on '(or integer string) will not tell you that it is a type specifier
2020-11-03T23:25:21Z phoe: you cannot check if some value is a type; even checking if it is a type specifier is troublesome
2020-11-03T23:25:35Z Alfr: pillton, subtypep may simply return nil nil, for all but the few cases specified in the spec.
2020-11-03T23:25:48Z Bike: that's a limitation of subtypep not directly related to first class ness
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2020-11-03T23:29:23Z Alfr: Bike, only wanted to point out, that we won't get a definitive answer for all type specifier pairs we may think of to feed to subtypep.
2020-11-03T23:29:46Z pillton: I fail to see how elevating it to first class status helps with that problem.
2020-11-03T23:29:55Z Bike: it does not.
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2020-11-03T23:32:25Z Bike: phoe's right that being able to tell if something is a type is a big one, though. one time i saw a system trying to do (ignore-errors (subtypep x t)) to see if x was a type specifier
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2020-11-03T23:34:08Z pillton: Interesting.
2020-11-03T23:34:22Z Bike: (this does not work)
2020-11-03T23:34:33Z pillton: Because the environment argument is missing?
2020-11-03T23:34:38Z Usersda: Hello everyone.
2020-11-03T23:35:02Z Bike: because subtypep does not actually have to signal an error if provided a non-type-specifier, among other reasons
2020-11-03T23:35:14Z pillton: Oh of course.
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2020-11-03T23:36:59Z pillton: You could say the same thing about environments not being first class.
2020-11-03T23:37:11Z Bike: environments are not first class, no
2020-11-03T23:37:31Z Usersda: I was wondering if i could get an opinion. This teacher is describing simple JS code. I noticed the relevant code he points out later and i think it's from years of parsing c++ bullshit. Am i mistaken or is what he doing what LISP philosophy teaches from the get go. https://youtu.be/F-JvvFlYcts?t=277
2020-11-03T23:38:14Z pillton: It is a curious definition.
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2020-11-04T00:20:38Z White_Flame: Usersda: yeah, it's taking advantage of first-class functions
2020-11-04T00:20:47Z White_Flame: you can do C in this manner, passing function pointers, too
2020-11-04T00:21:01Z White_Flame: but it's much easier with an inline lambda syntax, which JS has now
2020-11-04T00:21:09Z White_Flame: see also: greenspun's tenth rule
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2020-11-04T00:36:51Z Usersda: Thx @White_Flame
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2020-11-04T00:38:27Z Usersda: Hahaha OMG that's so true.
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2020-11-04T02:01:04Z asarch: "This is SBCL 2.0.7, an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp."
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2020-11-04T04:05:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-11-04T04:07:16Z Josh_2: Hey beach
2020-11-04T04:13:23Z asarch: I have: (defparameter *food* '(tacos pizza beer bbq)), how can I know if 'tacos is actually in the list?
2020-11-04T04:13:25Z asarch: find-if?
2020-11-04T04:14:28Z Josh_2: member?
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2020-11-04T04:15:17Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-11-04T04:15:42Z Josh_2: np
2020-11-04T04:17:15Z beach: asarch: And be careful.  Don't use DELETE on that literal list.
2020-11-04T04:17:48Z asarch: Well, I just want to know if a value is actually on the list
2020-11-04T04:18:04Z asarch: To store that value into the PostgreSQL cluster
2020-11-04T04:18:24Z asarch: Thank you for the advice :-)
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2020-11-04T04:18:41Z beach: I was pointing it out, since you used DELETE on a similar list before.
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2020-11-04T04:23:22Z asarch: Thank you
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2020-11-04T04:56:41Z asarch: Have a nice day guys
2020-11-04T04:56:45Z asarch: See you later :-)
2020-11-04T04:56:48Z asarch: Thank you for all
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2020-11-04T07:51:30Z russell-- has a loop macro question ... i want to traverse a list, but conditionally not advance to the next list element
2020-11-04T07:51:53Z russell--: conditional on something not in the list
2020-11-04T07:52:28Z beach: Then use FOR x = ... THEN ...
2020-11-04T07:53:28Z beach: (loop for x = list then (if ... (cdr x) x) ...)
2020-11-04T07:54:08Z russell--: i'll give that a try
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2020-11-04T07:57:06Z flip214: ITERATE has generators: (iterate (generate x in list) (if ( ) (NEXT x))   https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/Generators.html#Generators
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2020-11-04T08:00:30Z beach: russell--: Try for instance (loop for y in '(1 2 ... 20) for x = '(a b c d e f g h) then (if (zerop (mod y 3)) (cdr x) x) collect (cons (car x) y))
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2020-11-04T08:10:11Z ldbeth: good afternoon
2020-11-04T08:10:21Z beach: Hello ldbeth.
2020-11-04T08:16:04Z decentyousername: I was about to ask the following question: "I'm trying to write a constructor for an object with quite a few slots. Currently I'm specifying all slots manualle in the parameter list, but I had that's annoying during prototyping, because I might add or remove slots. So I had the ingenious idea of using &rest and using (apply #'make-instance 'class args) to create the object. But if the user doesn't specify a value for a slot, I w
2020-11-04T08:16:04Z decentyousername: like to use a default argument." but then I realized I should probably just put the default value for a paramater inside a :default-initargs form.
2020-11-04T08:16:38Z decentyousername: and good morning ldbeth
2020-11-04T08:16:41Z decentyousername: and beach
2020-11-04T08:17:35Z phoe: good morning
2020-11-04T08:17:41Z decentyousername: and phoe
2020-11-04T08:17:43Z beach: decentyousername: That or in an :INITFORM depending on your situation.
2020-11-04T08:17:48Z beach: Hey phoe.
2020-11-04T08:17:56Z ldbeth: I see some people write their own utils to make define classes as easy as define structs
2020-11-04T08:18:13Z beach: ldbeth: Yes, and also very wrong most of the time then.
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2020-11-04T08:19:04Z decentyousername: beach: I thought one should use :default-initargs, because then #'post-initialize has he ability to access the arguments.
2020-11-04T08:19:06Z beach: It must be highly unusual to want to have or not have initforms, initargs, readers, and writers exactly the same way for every slot in class.
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2020-11-04T08:19:37Z beach: decentyousername: Like I said, depending on your situation.
2020-11-04T08:20:12Z decentyousername: the only time I use :initform is for signaling an error.
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2020-11-04T08:21:54Z decentyousername: It's nice how just formulating the question makes you sometimes find the answer. I was so focused on the constructor that I forgot that I could use the class definition to specify default args.
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2020-11-04T10:28:10Z villanella: is it a good way to start learning common lisp if I'd like to get into elisp programming?
2020-11-04T10:28:23Z beach: Sure, you can do that.
2020-11-04T10:28:29Z beach: They are similar in many respects.
2020-11-04T10:28:47Z beach: And sometimes I think Emacs Lisp is moving closer to Common Lisp.
2020-11-04T10:29:15Z villanella: are the two languages somewhat close similar to how c and c++ are?
2020-11-04T10:29:30Z aeth: Yes.
2020-11-04T10:29:39Z beach: Hard to measure closeness that way, but I would say much closer than that.
2020-11-04T10:30:05Z aeth: Emacs Lisp is basically an archaic Lisp, which based its design on the languages (Maclisp and Interlisp?) that Common Lisp was designed to replace.
2020-11-04T10:30:19Z villanella: thanks both of you, it is nice to have a bit of guidance regarding this
2020-11-04T10:30:40Z beach: Good luck!
2020-11-04T10:31:30Z beach: Though I can't understand why 1. you would want Emacs Lisp to be your ultimate goal, and 2. If it is, why you would not learn it directly instead.
2020-11-04T10:33:06Z villanella: yes I would like to be able to customize my Emacs configuration and eventually start building packages of my own. I am not learning it directly as I found a really interesting common lisp book which I particularly enjoy.
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2020-11-04T10:33:26Z beach: I see.
2020-11-04T10:33:35Z beach: Which book?
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2020-11-04T10:34:57Z villanella: It is called Practical Common LISP and can be found here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2020-11-04T10:35:13Z beach: Yes, it is well known.  Good choice.
2020-11-04T10:35:23Z villanella: Thanks :)
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2020-11-04T12:08:07Z dim: when learning a new programming language a huge part of the task is to do with learning APIs, either standard/core ones and/or also main librairies ; in that respect learning Emacs Lisp is totally different than learning Common Lisp
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2020-11-04T13:00:15Z ane: villanella: https://yoo2080.wordpress.com/2013/08/16/differences-between-common-lisp-and-emacs-lisp/ this is probably a useful read
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2020-11-04T15:45:20Z jmercouris: you know how in let* you can access previously let bound values like (let* ((fish 1) (salmon (+ 1 fish))))
2020-11-04T15:45:29Z jmercouris: is there some equivalent pattern or model for class slot values?
2020-11-04T15:45:36Z jmercouris: the initform that is of a slot
2020-11-04T15:46:11Z jmercouris: until now, the only reasonable way I can think of achieving this is via intialize instance
2020-11-04T15:46:15Z hhdave: I've often wondered that myself. With functions the key parameters can refer to previous key parameters.
2020-11-04T15:46:44Z hhdave: I always assumed that couldn't be done with slot initializers. Unless one implements an #'initialize-instance, which is what I tend to do
2020-11-04T15:46:59Z hhdave: (like you said)
2020-11-04T15:47:24Z phoe: initialize-instance it is; in DEFCLASS there's no way to access the previous slots' values
2020-11-04T15:48:11Z jackdaniel: (defclass foo () ((a :initform #1=42) (b :initform #2=(+ #1# 3))))
2020-11-04T15:48:55Z jmercouris: OK, that is technically possible
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2020-11-04T15:49:31Z phoe: be wary of double evaluation when doing this though
2020-11-04T15:49:39Z jmercouris: don't worry, I am not going to do that :-D
2020-11-04T15:51:01Z Bike: usually that kind of thing is done with initialize-instance :after methods yeah.
2020-11-04T15:51:29Z Bike: stuff gets a little hairy when you factor in reinitialization, class changes, that kind of thing
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2020-11-04T15:52:43Z phoe: I had to deal with this, yes - that's where all the different GFs come into place: initialize-instance, reinitialize-instance, shared-initialize, update-instance-for-*-class
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2020-11-04T15:59:15Z jmercouris: I see, thanks for the feedback everyone
2020-11-04T16:02:42Z Bike: imo it feels a little messy since you're kind of writing (setf (slot ...) parameter), rather than any kind of ahead of time specification, until you look at how CLOS works internally and see that's what it does even without custom methods
2020-11-04T16:04:18Z devon: Hi all.  In (let ((x (#+style AND #-style WHEN p v))) ...) ; Which would you write and why?
2020-11-04T16:05:13Z phoe: in this case, AND
2020-11-04T16:05:23Z phoe: WHEN is usually for side effects
2020-11-04T16:05:33Z beach: devon: According to Norvig and PITMAN, WHEN is to be used only in a context where the value is not used.
2020-11-04T16:05:45Z Bike: i'd write when, because i am afflicted by an evil heart
2020-11-04T16:06:23Z beach: devon: So that suggests AND.  However, if v is not a Boolean, then the same people advise against AND.
2020-11-04T16:06:45Z Bike: oh. yeah, no, that's why i'd use when generally
2020-11-04T16:07:24Z phoe: if you want to bind X to NIL, then you should either write it explicitly, (if p v nil), or use AND since that's a logical operation on booleans but then V is assumed to be a generalized boolean value, so either NIL or anything non-NIL
2020-11-04T16:07:26Z beach: devon: So if v is not a Boolean, it should be (IF p v NIL).
2020-11-04T16:07:30Z phoe: ^
2020-11-04T16:07:53Z beach: devon: Now, if p is not a Boolean either, the advice is yet different.
2020-11-04T16:08:44Z beach: devon: (IF (NULL p) NIL v)
2020-11-04T16:08:57Z beach: All according to Norvig and Pitman.  Not me.
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2020-11-04T16:09:20Z beach: So no point in disagreeing with me.  Disagree with the highly experienced people Norvig and Pitman instead.
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2020-11-04T16:09:56Z devon: Grrr.  Woof, woof!
2020-11-04T16:10:08Z beach: devon: Does that make sense to you?
2020-11-04T16:10:50Z phoe: devon: you're barking up the wrong cons tree
2020-11-04T16:11:27Z devon: LOL, yes.  I know KMP, haven't met Norvig.
2020-11-04T16:11:50Z beach: Check out page 13 of the LUV slides by those two.
2020-11-04T16:12:40Z beach: I can't pretend having even a fraction of their experience, so the relatively tiny programs I have written (compared to theirs) are not enough for me to disagree with them.
2020-11-04T16:13:44Z devon: https://courses.cs.northwestern.edu/325/readings/luv-slides.pdf
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2020-11-04T16:14:22Z beach: Indeed.
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2020-11-04T16:15:06Z devon: I'd prefer (if (not (numberp x)) nil (cos x)) to what's on the slide.
2020-11-04T16:15:42Z _death: I don't think these are hard and fast rules.. for example, PAIP doesn't always follow them
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2020-11-04T16:16:15Z beach: I am not going to debate this issue any further.
2020-11-04T16:17:01Z devon: I've often seen WHEN return a value.  Thanks, y'all've been helpful.
2020-11-04T16:17:17Z beach: Pleasure!
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2020-11-04T16:59:09Z Xach: i have so many function bodies that start off with (when ...) and they are meant to return NIL if the precondition fails, something useful otherwise. i only learned about the WHEN side-effect style recently.
2020-11-04T16:59:24Z Xach: I don't think it would look nearly as nice to do (and ... (progn ...))
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2020-11-04T17:01:23Z beach: I don't think anybody suggested that.
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2020-11-04T17:03:20Z beach: Also, often NIL is a special case, as in the base case of a recursion or something similar.  It is good style to handle the base case first, so that the person reading the code does not have to keep that case fresh in memory while reading the rest of the code.
2020-11-04T17:04:02Z beach: Therefore, code like that often turns into (IF <special-case> NIL ...) where ... may have to contain a PROGN.
2020-11-04T17:06:32Z beach: For example, suppose we define a simple version of MAPCAR.  It is not good style to write (defun mapcar (function list) (when list (cons (funcall function) (mapcar function (rest list))))), for more than the reason of using LIST as a Boolean.
2020-11-04T17:07:17Z beach: Er, forgot (first list), you get the idea.
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2020-11-04T17:07:59Z beach: Instead, we handle the special case first, as in (defun mapcar (function list) (if (null list) '() (cons (funcall function (first list)) (mapcar function (rest list)))))
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2020-11-04T17:09:47Z beach: When a mathematician writes a proof by induction, the base case is always handled first, for the same reason.
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2020-11-04T17:18:23Z Xach: beach: norvig and pitman and clhs seem to suggest it?
2020-11-04T17:18:33Z Xach: beach: how else to interpret "when must be used only for side effect"?
2020-11-04T17:18:54Z beach: I'm lost.  What are they suggesting?
2020-11-04T17:19:24Z Xach: beach: don't use WHEN for a return value
2020-11-04T17:19:37Z beach: I agree.  What made you think otherwise?
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2020-11-04T17:20:11Z beach: It looked to me like you were suggesting that your function bodies returned the NIL (default value of WHEN) as a useful value.
2020-11-04T17:20:32Z beach: But now, it seems you are agreeing with Norvig and Pitman.
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2020-11-04T17:21:36Z Xach: beach: i am describing a practice that i think is discouraged by norvig and pitman and described one alternative. when you wrote "i don't think anybody is suggesting that" i interpreted it to mean "nobody is suggesting you do not use WHEN for a return value"
2020-11-04T17:21:41Z beach: I am sorry if I misunderstood.
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2020-11-04T17:22:16Z beach: I meant, nobody is suggesting using AND in this situation.
2020-11-04T17:22:36Z beach: Because the first argument of AND would then not be a Boolean.
2020-11-04T17:22:55Z _death: the luv also has pages 4 and 7... in PAIP for example there are functions whose body is (when ... (get ...)) .. Pitman uses (or (gethash ...) (setf (gethash ...) ...)) idiom in his conditions code, etc.
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2020-11-04T17:23:35Z beach: _death: Do you take that as an indication to ignore their advice on page 13?
2020-11-04T17:23:44Z beach: That seems like the wrong thing to do if so.
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2020-11-04T17:25:00Z Xach: Hmm, I am trying to find the passage in CLHS on WHEN/UNLESS that I thought I remembered, and can't find it at the moment. But I thought it specifically mentioned using AND for value, WHEN for side-effect.
2020-11-04T17:25:01Z _death: beach: no.. it's a good rule in general
2020-11-04T17:25:04Z Xach: Perhaps it was just a crazy dream.
2020-11-04T17:26:10Z beach: Xach: I have not seen anything like that, especially for general values, i.e. not only Booleans.
2020-11-04T17:27:06Z Xach: It stuck firmly (but possibly incorrectly) in my mind because I learned about it so recently.
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2020-11-04T20:52:59Z sjl_: Xach: are you thinking of the pitman/norvig style guide? https://courses.cs.northwestern.edu/325/readings/luv-slides.pdf
2020-11-04T20:53:05Z sjl_: slide 13?
2020-11-04T20:53:41Z sjl_: Oh, someone already mentioned that.  I guess not.  Sorry.
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2020-11-04T20:56:08Z sjl_: There's something like that in CLtL2:
2020-11-04T20:56:10Z sjl_: > As a matter of style, when is normally used to conditionally produce some side effects, and the value of the when form is normally not used. If the value is relevant, then it may be stylistically more appropriate to use and or if.
2020-11-04T20:56:15Z sjl_: but I guess it didn't make it into the spec
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2020-11-04T21:34:46Z Xach: I swear I saw it in a speclike place.
2020-11-04T21:34:54Z Xach checks cltl2
2020-11-04T21:35:33Z Xach: Aha
2020-11-04T21:35:35Z Xach: > As a matter of style, when is normally used to conditionally produce some side effects, and the value of the when form is normally not used. If the value is relevant, then it may be stylistically more appropriate to use and or if.
2020-11-04T21:35:44Z Xach: That's in 7.6
2020-11-04T21:35:48Z Xach: (of cltl2)
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2020-11-04T22:33:07Z bostongeek36: i am trying to install sbcl 2.10 from source but i am getting an error saying sh is not a valid command
2020-11-04T22:33:20Z bostongeek36: ive installed both msys and cygwin
2020-11-04T22:33:30Z bostongeek36: so im not sure what the issue is
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2020-11-04T22:33:42Z phoe: be sure that you are running from a msys terminal; sh should be defined there and available on the PATH
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2020-11-04T22:35:58Z bostongeek36: ah so you cant do it from cmd
2020-11-04T22:36:17Z bostongeek36: oh i should of said this is on windows
2020-11-04T22:36:37Z phoe: I guessed as much; there is no modern widespread OS that does not have sh defined by default
2020-11-04T22:36:57Z bostongeek36: yeah :P
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2020-11-04T22:39:20Z bostongeek36: how do i tell make.sh where sbcl is installed it can't find it
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2020-11-04T22:41:09Z bostongeek36: @phoe
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2020-11-04T22:50:38Z phoe: I need to run to sleep now
2020-11-04T22:50:42Z phoe: maybe someone else will be able to help
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2020-11-04T22:50:48Z phoe: in the worst case, try #sbcl
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2020-11-04T22:53:18Z bostongeek36: eh i just installed portacle
2020-11-04T22:53:24Z White_Flame: bostongeek36: --xc-host='/path/to/sbcl'
2020-11-04T22:53:34Z bostongeek36: bye all
2020-11-04T22:53:39Z White_Flame: it's in the INSTALL docfile
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2020-11-05T02:49:33Z billstclair: ioa: At the request of my one paid backer, I have renamed iSlime to Wilfred. It ostensibly stands for "Web Lisp FRont EnD", but is more a pun on "Fred" the Emacs clone inside of Macintosh Common Lisp, which I worked on and in from 1990 through 1997. https://github.com/billstclair/Wilfred
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2020-11-05T02:59:46Z moon-child: billstclair: why clojure instead of jscl
2020-11-05T02:59:52Z moon-child: ?
2020-11-05T02:59:59Z edgar-rft: I was named Edgar because when I was made my parents still were using Ed.
2020-11-05T03:00:24Z billstclair: moon-child Because this is the first time I heard about jscl.
2020-11-05T03:00:50Z moon-child: :)
2020-11-05T03:01:06Z billstclair: It will be hard to convince myself to NOT use Elm, because I know and love it. Whatever I use has to be strongly typed and have a sizable library.
2020-11-05T03:01:29Z billstclair: edgar-rft: Heh
2020-11-05T03:01:46Z moon-child: if you wanna use elm, use elm.  Why not?
2020-11-05T03:02:54Z edgar-rft: Because I don't wanna be named Elmar.
2020-11-05T03:05:35Z billstclair: moon-child: jscl is very cool. But I'm eventually going to need Emacs Lisp in JS, not Common Lisp. I may well settle on Elm, but I'm going to give ClojureScript a try, since that will likely be more natural for other Wilfred users to hack.
2020-11-05T03:06:53Z billstclair: But then, Clojure is not Common Lisp. It only looks like it, sort of.
2020-11-05T03:07:05Z billstclair: Elm is more like Haskell.
2020-11-05T03:09:06Z moon-child: what do you mean, you're going to need emacs lisp in js rather than common lisp?
2020-11-05T03:09:36Z moon-child: do you mean, you want to support code written in actual elisp?  Easier to build compat shims from cl than from another language
2020-11-05T03:10:04Z moon-child: or, you want something with good integration with js?  In that case maybe look at parenscript
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2020-11-05T03:19:14Z billstclair: I've used parenscript. It's a nicer syntax, but has all the drawbacks. If Elm copies, it NEVER gets run-time errors. You may be right that an elisp package for jscl would be easier to write than elisp in Elm or ClojureScript. My goal is indeed to enable existing elisp code to work in Wilfred. But that's a long time from now. It will initially use CodeMirror. Only when that works will turn that into an Emacs subset, and
2020-11-05T03:19:14Z billstclair: then, if I'm alive long enough, or a few others decide to help, clone.
2020-11-05T03:19:38Z billstclair: If Elm COMPILES, it never gets run-time errors.
2020-11-05T03:19:46Z mfiano: jscl has some crippling issues
2020-11-05T03:19:57Z billstclair: Do tell
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2020-11-05T03:20:25Z mfiano: Off hand, try 1d999 in the repl. It will not signal a condition, and just freeze the process/tab
2020-11-05T03:20:35Z billstclair: It's not as if interpreted lisps are that hard to write. Most of elisp-in-Elm would be elisp.
2020-11-05T03:20:58Z imode: thoughts on concatenative lisps?
2020-11-05T03:20:59Z billstclair: Ah, so it suffers the same problem as almost all JS.
2020-11-05T03:21:28Z billstclair: JS isn't a bad compiler target, but nobody should EVER write anything but low-level stuff in it
2020-11-05T03:22:20Z billstclair: imode:
2020-11-05T03:22:29Z billstclair: What's a concatenative lisp?
2020-11-05T03:22:52Z mfiano reported that issue and others quite a few years ago
2020-11-05T03:23:12Z billstclair: A few YEARS ago? Guess it's not active, eh?
2020-11-05T03:23:29Z imode: billstclair: one that use postfix notation instead of prefix notation.
2020-11-05T03:23:34Z billstclair: I'm not going to worry about elisp-in-js for now, anyway.
2020-11-05T03:24:46Z billstclair: Ah. HP calculator lisp. I remember writing that kind of code as part of my second Scheme interpreter on the PDP-11, back in 1979. The second one was built on a software virtual memory, which turned the PDP-11's 16-bit address space into 24 bits, with demand paging.
2020-11-05T03:24:58Z billstclair: Postfix lisp was NOT fun to write.
2020-11-05T03:25:06Z imode: eh, less RPL and more Joy.
2020-11-05T03:25:47Z imode: http://joy-lang.org/ http://joy-lang.org/libraries-and-c-sources
2020-11-05T03:25:56Z billstclair: Of course at a low level, that's what happens. Push arguments, maybe push continuation, jump to function.
2020-11-05T03:26:04Z imode: features a small lisp interpreter.
2020-11-05T03:26:50Z billstclair: Lambda: The Ultimate GOTO
2020-11-05T03:27:53Z billstclair: Must sleep. Buying a Ford F-150 tomorrow, so I probably won't sleep much, but I'll try.
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2020-11-05T04:04:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-05T04:08:13Z beach: imode: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.  There is no widely agreed-upon definition of what "Lisp" means, so it could be debated endlessly.  Common Lisp, on the other hand, is quite well defined.
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2020-11-05T04:16:17Z edgar-rft: AFAIK Lisp is when you speak the eth with thome funny thound.
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2020-11-05T08:11:13Z flip214: edgar-rft: that's verbal Lisp. This here is more about the written version, with its grammar and so on.
2020-11-05T08:13:36Z phoe: (fetf *foo* (lift *ftandard-output* *ftandard-input*))
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2020-11-05T08:20:12Z flip214: phoe: you want to use the "long s" at the beginning of a word.  (ſetf *foo* (list *ſtandard-output* :ſb-bsd-ſockets))
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2020-11-05T08:21:05Z flip214: (sorry, german only: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraktursatz)
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2020-11-05T08:22:59Z phoe: why does it look almost like f
2020-11-05T08:23:01Z TMA: flip214: You want to uſe it even medially: (ſetf *foo* (liſt *ſtandard-output* :ſb-bſd-ſockets))
2020-11-05T08:23:06Z phoe: ...oh
2020-11-05T08:24:16Z ecraven: unless in german it's the end of a syllable... wach-ſtube vs. wachs-tube
2020-11-05T08:24:23Z flip214: TMA: it's complicated ;)
2020-11-05T08:24:49Z ecraven: (so in german, you cannot automatically decide whether to use ſ or s, unless you have a dictionary and understand the meaning ;)
2020-11-05T08:25:30Z ck_: shounds vaguely shcottish
2020-11-05T08:27:49Z TMA: In Engliſh, while it was ſtill uſ'd, 'twas optionally the caſe as well, if I recall correctly. But let's not ſtray from the channel's ſubject too far.
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2020-11-05T08:54:34Z phoe: true, we will again talk about common liſp now
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2020-11-05T08:56:45Z aeth: can someone write aliases for everything in the COMMON-LISP package, but with proper ſ usage? Then it's on topic
2020-11-05T09:05:27Z edgar-rft: flip214: only because I thpeak funny doesn't mean that i make grammar mithtakes :-)
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2020-11-05T09:14:09Z flip214: edgar-rft: is your first name Igor?
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2020-11-05T09:15:28Z phoe: aeth: two iſues I immediately ſee are CL:&REST and CL:&ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS
2020-11-05T09:15:38Z flip214: aeth: that's a TRIVIAL-LIſP package.... but there's no uppercase-version
2020-11-05T09:16:00Z phoe: these have special meaning since they are lambda list keywords, and so we would require custom macros that are able to parse those into the actually-CL versions
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2020-11-05T09:16:43Z flip214: phoe: can't we have multiple entries in a package pointing to the same symbol?
2020-11-05T09:16:47Z phoe: so, custom LAMBDA, DEFUN, DEFGENERIC, DEFMETHOD, DEFſETF, ...
2020-11-05T09:16:51Z phoe: flip214: entries, what do you mean?
2020-11-05T09:17:17Z edgar-rft: flip214: firtht name Igor but me write Edgar
2020-11-05T09:17:27Z flip214: well, don't make new symbols, but just import the CL symbols into the LIſP package with other hash-table-keys
2020-11-05T09:17:41Z flip214: that's what I'd understand as "alias"
2020-11-05T09:17:50Z phoe: yes, but then you will not be able to write &REſT
2020-11-05T09:18:06Z phoe: this will be read as a different symbol than CL:&REST
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2020-11-05T09:19:22Z phoe: sigh, we cannot easily fix this problem without custom macros and/or code walking
2020-11-05T09:19:57Z phoe: like, it's going to be non-trivial to do (defun foo (&reſt args) (liſt args))
2020-11-05T09:20:03Z phoe: aeth: I'm sorry but I must let you down
2020-11-05T09:20:55Z aeth: call it non-trivial-liſp then
2020-11-05T09:21:01Z phoe: :(
2020-11-05T09:21:53Z beach: If y'all are bored, I can give you some tasks to work on.
2020-11-05T09:22:06Z easye: beach: exactly.
2020-11-05T09:22:18Z phoe hideſ
2020-11-05T09:22:21Z flip214: beach: ſome taſks? ;)
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2020-11-05T09:37:43Z edgar-rft: has it thomething to do with THICL?
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2020-11-05T09:43:41Z cl-arthur: Looks like y'all changed alphabets tonight.
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2020-11-05T09:45:25Z flip214: (changle-class input 'αλφάβητο)
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2020-11-05T09:49:16Z amirouche: I have troubles building pgloader with ccl, I have compiled ccl, whereis ccl will return: ~/.local/bin. But then in pgloader git tree, I get: https://hastebin.com/ujahapafol.sh
2020-11-05T09:50:06Z phoe: huh! how come that it could not find ASDF?
2020-11-05T09:50:51Z amirouche: to compile CCL, I used: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/releases/
2020-11-05T09:51:27Z phoe: did you download the 1.12 binary from there, or have you done something else?
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2020-11-05T09:52:15Z amirouche: I git cloned the repo, then dowloaded the linuxx86.tar.gz
2020-11-05T09:52:56Z phoe: OK; now the question is why CCL cannot find ASDF
2020-11-05T09:53:02Z amirouche: I have done the following https://hastebin.com/sixoxoqige.apache
2020-11-05T09:53:45Z amirouche: then ccl-dev$ ./lx86cl64 and inside the REPL, I typed: ? (rebuild-ccl :clean t)
2020-11-05T09:53:53Z phoe: yes, this seems OK
2020-11-05T09:54:00Z amirouche: somehow ccl end up in ~/.local/bin
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2020-11-05T09:54:52Z phoe: somehow?... it shouldn't do that, the rebuild should happen in the ccl-dev directory
2020-11-05T09:55:26Z amirouche: ah ok it is a previous install
2020-11-05T09:55:28Z amirouche: sorry
2020-11-05T09:55:39Z amirouche: How do I install ccl in ~/.local/bin ?
2020-11-05T09:55:47Z phoe: try doing MAKE cl=~/ccl-dev/lx86cl64 - I assume this is where your newest CCL is at
2020-11-05T09:55:59Z phoe: oh, wait, pgloader will have issues with that...
2020-11-05T09:56:18Z phoe: just remove the symlink from .local/bin and make a new one that points to ~/ccl-dev/lx86cl64
2020-11-05T09:56:50Z amirouche: ok
2020-11-05T09:57:08Z dim: look at the `make save` command in pgloader too, and you can do that manually
2020-11-05T09:57:48Z dim: ccl --no-init --load ./src/save.lisp
2020-11-05T09:58:39Z dim: that's the tentative new build system for pgloader, all written in lisp, bypassing the need to build and use buildapp, should just work in more cases including using lx86cl64 as the binary name for ccl
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2020-11-05T10:00:29Z amirouche: `make CL=ccl` failed with "missing mssql", I am trying: `make CL=ccl save`.
2020-11-05T10:01:10Z pve: Hi! If I wanted to estimate how much space a class definition requires, would this let me calculate a ballpark figure?
2020-11-05T10:01:14Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2110
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2020-11-05T10:02:12Z phoe: I guess so, yes; compare the room before and after
2020-11-05T10:03:03Z amirouche: dim: make CL=ccl save compiled successfuly pgloader :)
2020-11-05T10:03:08Z pve: phoe: thanks.. I get 912 bytes. Does that seem plausible?
2020-11-05T10:04:05Z pve: seems plausible to me, but I don't really know anything
2020-11-05T10:04:32Z phoe: so 114 64-bit words; seems plausible to me as well
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2020-11-05T10:14:22Z flip214: when using (ITERATE (FOR (a b c) IN ...)  ...) I get "A is assigned but never read"; with a (DECLARE (IGNORE a)) I get "A is being set even though it was declared to be ignored."
2020-11-05T10:14:28Z flip214: Is there a way around that?
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2020-11-05T10:14:54Z phoe: looks like fallout from the recent SBCL updates
2020-11-05T10:18:48Z phoe: iterate might want to update itself to take this into account though I don't know how exactly; macroexpanding (iterate (for (a b c) in '())) does show that A B C are indeed assigned even though they are not used
2020-11-05T10:20:36Z phoe: flip214: try declaring them ignorable?
2020-11-05T10:20:42Z phoe: that's what SBCL's LOOP seems to do
2020-11-05T10:20:50Z phoe: and that's what iterate might need to do, too
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2020-11-05T10:30:25Z flip214: phoe: thanks... didn't think that IGNORE vs IGNORABLE would make a difference, but it does
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2020-11-05T10:40:53Z phoe: I know, right? it should be ITERATE that does this internally
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2020-11-05T11:12:55Z phoe: flip214: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/iterate/iterate/-/issues/4
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2020-11-05T11:16:05Z flip214: phoe: thanks, got an email ;)
2020-11-05T11:16:52Z flip214: also it would be great if ITERATE could be used together with CL-WHO... that means registering ITERATE in CL-WHO, and allowing the CL-WHO:HTM macrolet in ITERATE...
2020-11-05T11:17:44Z phoe: hmmmm, that sounds like a sizeable feature request and I don't feel competent to make an issue for *that*
2020-11-05T11:17:47Z phoe: useful though
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2020-11-05T12:46:38Z ioa: billstclair: re Wilfred: thanks for letting me know! I like human names for software. ^^
2020-11-05T12:48:27Z billstclair: I’m working on another small Elm project now. Hopefully, Wilfred will get some love next week.
2020-11-05T12:49:00Z billstclair: On the road. Six mile bike ride (each way).
2020-11-05T12:51:59Z ioa notes to self to go on bikerides more often
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2020-11-05T12:53:43Z ldb: good evening
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2020-11-05T13:04:16Z beach: Hello ldb.
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2020-11-05T13:34:26Z cl-arthur: phoe: ordered your book, looking forwards to patching my shoddy know-how :)
2020-11-05T13:35:19Z daphnis: what library would you use for a countdown timer, if you need to perform certain actions, like printing and playing sounds at various points in the countdown?
2020-11-05T13:35:22Z daphnis: cl
2020-11-05T13:36:55Z daphnis: tried with just sleep but it got a bit messy
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2020-11-05T13:53:29Z flip214: daphnis: an array of callback functions that is iterated downward
2020-11-05T13:54:19Z amirouche: an event-loop..
2020-11-05T13:54:42Z amirouche: there is a procedure like setTimeout in most event-loops
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2020-11-05T13:57:19Z ldb: get a thread to do scheduling
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2020-11-05T14:36:32Z billstclair: ioa ClojureScript looks more mature than Elm, likely because it has more than one guy working on it. Going to start Wilfred in that, and see how I like it.
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2020-11-05T14:41:24Z daphnis: thanks
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2020-11-05T14:42:31Z dbotton: billstclair have you seen http://lisperator.net/slip/
2020-11-05T14:43:11Z dbotton: in particular the emacs in js in the demo perhaps can start there
2020-11-05T14:46:40Z dbotton: http://www.ymacs.org/ is the project specific to that part
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2020-11-05T14:48:24Z billstclair: dbotton: No. I'll check it out.
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2020-11-05T15:17:29Z Demosthenex: so i need a unique name for a struct slot default value, could i generate it from the lisp obj address like what prints with an item without a pretty print?
2020-11-05T15:18:22Z Demosthenex: but using it in the constructor, how could i call sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address against self?
2020-11-05T15:18:48Z phoe: the lisp object address needs not be unique
2020-11-05T15:19:02Z phoe: the GC can move an object out of a memory location and then move another object into that memory location
2020-11-05T15:19:05Z Demosthenex: hrm, well i thought that was a clever hack :P
2020-11-05T15:19:25Z Demosthenex: yeah, so i'm working with a text field for xml that just needs to be unique in the file. once i make it a string it shouldn't change.
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2020-11-05T15:19:43Z Demosthenex: otherwise maybe i just use a random #, or stmp?
2020-11-05T15:19:44Z phoe: use a uuid!
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2020-11-05T15:21:34Z Demosthenex: hrm, uuid in quicklisp needs ironclad. that's a bit deep for my little text tag
2020-11-05T15:23:49Z Demosthenex: well, make-v1-uuid is simple enough. ty
2020-11-05T15:24:05Z phoe: remember that this library is llgpl
2020-11-05T15:24:59Z Demosthenex: and?
2020-11-05T15:25:05Z Demosthenex: (i'm out of dateon licenses)
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2020-11-05T15:29:18Z thelounge28: HEY
2020-11-05T15:29:19Z phoe: if you simply copypaste this code snippet into your project, you might need to redistribute the project under LGPL or GPL
2020-11-05T15:29:37Z phoe: thelounge28: hello there
2020-11-05T15:30:12Z thelounge28: hello phoe
2020-11-05T15:31:32Z Demosthenex: phoe: ah. ok, license virus. well, this is local while i tinker. so i'm not too worried.
2020-11-05T15:31:41Z Demosthenex: though i ended up using a random# in 10M with a prefix
2020-11-05T15:31:55Z Demosthenex: i am trying to use few dependencies
2020-11-05T15:32:16Z Demosthenex: i did read about the agpl recently, that's a great new idea =]
2020-11-05T15:32:41Z Demosthenex: been in oss for decades, and frustrated how much money is made without rewardng the programmers.
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2020-11-05T15:33:49Z phoe: there's been other similar developments, like SSPL or License Zero, but that's already #lispcafe material
2020-11-05T15:34:27Z Demosthenex: indeed, ty for answering my question =]
2020-11-05T15:34:39Z dim: I think the Varnish Moral Licence is another very practical way to attack the problem
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2020-11-05T15:44:01Z _death: use a counter?
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2020-11-05T15:59:19Z beach: thelounge28: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-11-05T15:59:54Z ldb: )off
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2020-11-05T16:02:02Z thelounge28: beach yeah man im new here.
2020-11-05T16:02:17Z beach: Great!  Welcome!  What brings you to #lisp?
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2020-11-05T16:05:36Z amirouche: thelounge28: welcome :)
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2020-11-05T16:08:31Z thelounge28: beach actually i`ve been thinking of reading sicp for a long time.. and got started reading
2020-11-05T16:08:54Z thelounge28: amirouche thanks man
2020-11-05T16:09:10Z beach: Sounds good.  Though, SICP uses Scheme and this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2020-11-05T16:09:27Z beach: Some people do the exercises in Common Lisp.
2020-11-05T16:10:43Z amirouche: there is also a #scheme channel ;)
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2020-11-05T16:11:51Z thelounge28: beach it is good you said that man thanks. i am also reading some other stuff related with dr.racket or common lisp books. really everything mixed up damn..
2020-11-05T16:12:35Z beach: That might get confusing since there are some significant differences between the languages.
2020-11-05T16:12:48Z thelounge28: amirouche im checking now..
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2020-11-05T16:13:51Z thelounge28: beach yeah man exactly.
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2020-11-05T16:30:42Z cl-arthur: -
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2020-11-05T17:36:59Z ex_nihilo: It seems that :test-not and all of the -if-not functions like remove-if-not, find-if-not, count-if-not, etc. were deprecated in the CL spec.
2020-11-05T17:37:08Z ex_nihilo: Sometimes using one of these seems like the right thing to do.
2020-11-05T17:37:14Z ex_nihilo: What is the feeling within the community about if or when the various -not constructions should be used?
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2020-11-05T17:38:12Z _death: they're perfectly fine
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2020-11-05T17:50:51Z Bike: yeah you can ignore the deprecation notice
2020-11-05T17:50:58Z Bike: i think someone got a little too excited when COMPLEMENT was added
2020-11-05T17:51:41Z cl-arthur: complement's cool though
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2020-11-05T18:14:55Z ex_nihilo: CLTL2 mentions the deprecations, but there is no rationale; did X3J13 provide rationales for deprecations?
2020-11-05T18:15:32Z jackdaniel: handling test and test-not is redundant with ability to supply :test (complement fun)
2020-11-05T18:17:07Z Bike: ex_nihilo: TEST-NOT-IF-NOT:FLUSH-ALL
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2020-11-05T18:23:46Z ex_nihilo: jackdaniel: right, but I didn't think that redundancy was ever a concern in the design of CL; and some days (REMOVE-IF-NOT #'EVENP '(1 2 3 4)) seems a bit more clear than (REMOVE-IF (COMPLEMENT #'EVENP) '(1 2 3 4))
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2020-11-05T18:24:57Z jackdaniel: and even cleaner is (remove-if #'oddp '(1 2 3 4)) :-)
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2020-11-05T18:25:23Z jackdaniel: I'm sure that it was at least some concern when designing cl, maybe it was not a primary goal
2020-11-05T18:25:38Z ex_nihilo: jackdaniel: touche ;)
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2020-11-05T18:26:22Z jackdaniel: name complement is a bit long, abbrieviating it with ! would make it cleaner
2020-11-05T18:26:42Z jackdaniel: #'evenp (! evenp)
2020-11-05T18:26:49Z _death: the test-not parameter is less defensible, but I still don't mind it much
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2020-11-05T18:27:32Z jackdaniel: I'm sure some devs would appreciate #!evenp ^_^
2020-11-05T18:27:37Z jackdaniel: (and some not)
2020-11-05T18:28:22Z escanda: slime autocompletes just fine with company mode :P
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2020-11-05T18:37:55Z phoe: (&key test test-not test-maybe)
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2020-11-05T19:00:03Z Xach: (&key test test-not there-is-no-try)
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2020-11-05T19:06:35Z phoe: Xach: more like (&key test test-not &disallow-other-keys)
2020-11-05T19:07:41Z aeth: (call-with-paradox :test #'foo :test-not #'foo)
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2020-11-05T19:16:33Z Xach: phoe: (return-from nil ...)???
2020-11-05T19:16:56Z Xach: surely the lisp critic would have words about that
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2020-11-05T19:20:37Z jackdaniel: not really a paradox
2020-11-05T19:21:08Z jackdaniel: it is not a function in mathematical sense
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2020-11-05T19:22:23Z phoe: Xach: oh well, we could name the block in some way
2020-11-05T19:22:29Z phoe: let me fix it
2020-11-05T19:22:49Z phoe: fixed
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2020-11-05T19:23:28Z Xach: phoew
2020-11-05T19:23:40Z phoe: okay that was so bad that it was good
2020-11-05T19:27:32Z edgar-rft: what somehow raises the question if there's a return from nil or if if we are doomed once we're there
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2020-11-05T19:28:26Z Xach: phoe: aww, that wasn't the direction i expected.
2020-11-05T19:28:37Z Xach: i expected a switch to plain (return ...)
2020-11-05T19:28:46Z phoe: oh
2020-11-05T19:28:47Z phoe: well then
2020-11-05T19:29:16Z Xach: i don't mind named blocks but i don't like referencing the implicit block with the function name, because it adds friction to function renaming.
2020-11-05T19:29:28Z Xach: i like nil blocks where usable
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2020-11-05T19:31:35Z phoe: (block t ...) simply means that the code encompassed by this form should block/be synchronous; (block nil ...) is a magic way to make it async!
2020-11-05T19:32:07Z Xach: don't be a block head.
2020-11-05T19:32:16Z phoe: okay sorry
2020-11-05T19:32:46Z phoe goes back to implementing the common-liſp package
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2020-11-05T19:39:06Z easye``: Xach:  I have been ruminating over the distinction you pointed out between CL:WHEN and CL:AND.  I have started using CL:AND much more.  Thanks for the refinement.
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2020-11-05T19:46:45Z easye: "Ghostlier demarcations, keener sounds" of ANSI CL.
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2020-11-05T19:54:52Z Xach: easye: i use WHEN a lot but mostly for wrapping big chunks of defun bodies
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2020-11-05T19:56:27Z easye: The key distinction is about side-effects.
2020-11-05T19:57:03Z easye: And whether one expects the return value of the form to matter.
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2020-11-05T20:01:40Z easye: We have only 1084 symbols, damnit, and each one counts!
2020-11-05T20:07:01Z phoe: 1084?
2020-11-05T20:07:28Z easye: err, that's my from memory external symbols in COMMON-LISP.
2020-11-05T20:07:36Z phoe: hmmmm!
2020-11-05T20:07:39Z easye: It's the right magnitude?
2020-11-05T20:07:42Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_i.htm states that there are 978
2020-11-05T20:07:53Z phoe: ...but (loop for s being the symbols of :common-lisp count s) states that there are 977!
2020-11-05T20:08:19Z easye: Well, I plead old-geezer status.  And it's close enough to (expt 10 3)
2020-11-05T20:08:46Z mfiano: do-external-symbols tells me 978
2020-11-05T20:08:58Z phoe: oh! I must be skipping some then
2020-11-05T20:08:59Z easye: Can't argue with empiricism....
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2020-11-05T20:09:19Z easye: I think I remember that figure from somewhere in Graham.
2020-11-05T20:09:34Z easye: But obviously, my memory can be wrong.
2020-11-05T20:10:15Z easye was trained as a physicist.  
2020-11-05T20:10:51Z easye: So, you know the joke about the rabbi, the mathematician, and the physicist when asked to predict a horse race?
2020-11-05T20:11:19Z easye: The physicist goes "assume a spherical horse, and assume pi is 10"
2020-11-05T20:11:27Z phoe: oh wait, 978, yes - this loop form does not count NIL
2020-11-05T20:11:47Z Bike: oh yeah, count 1 not count s
2020-11-05T20:11:51Z Bike: whoops
2020-11-05T20:12:03Z Bike: i think the cl package is allowed to have whatever internal symbols, though
2020-11-05T20:12:25Z phoe: yes, correct; external-symbols is the more correct choice
2020-11-05T20:13:05Z easye: A thousand symbols to build all possible computations.
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2020-11-05T20:13:48Z phoe: that's an upgrade yanno, some programming languages only give you two
2020-11-05T20:13:51Z phoe: and they're equivalent!
2020-11-05T20:13:57Z phoe: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Parenthesis_Hell
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2020-11-05T20:17:37Z easye: phoe: Parenthensis Hell seems isomorphic to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surreal_number> Knuth's Surreal Numbers?
2020-11-05T20:18:53Z easye: (actualy Conway's (RIP), Surreal Numbers)
2020-11-05T20:19:22Z phoe: nah, not really; it's a Lisp-1 dialect in which the only data types are empty and proper lists
2020-11-05T20:19:34Z mfiano: phoe: interesting
2020-11-05T20:19:46Z phoe: so instead of calling symbols you call lists, and the structure of the list that is called defines which function gets called
2020-11-05T20:20:44Z easye: Well, the Surreals don't have computation defined upon them, per se.  But the nesting of the sets by the parenthesis looks the same.
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2020-11-05T20:21:22Z mfiano: (loop for s being the symbols of :common-lisp count s) ;=> 977
2020-11-05T20:21:23Z mfiano: (length (loop for s being the symbols of :common-lisp collect s)) ;=> 978
2020-11-05T20:21:37Z easye: But then again, I consider myself a physicist forced to slum as a mathematician who whores out as a software developer.
2020-11-05T20:21:40Z phoe: mfiano: yes, this is because if S is NIL then COUNT does not increment
2020-11-05T20:21:51Z phoe: and CL:NIL is definitely a CL symbol
2020-11-05T20:21:58Z mfiano: ah yeah ok
2020-11-05T20:23:51Z easye: The point of the world, is to change it, and all that.
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2020-11-05T20:26:32Z Xach: that is such a great brain teaser
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2020-11-05T20:35:02Z _death: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2111#2111 heap exhausted? ok maybe it wasn't such a good idea ;)... the answer is sb-kernel::package-external-symbol-count however
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2020-11-05T20:36:02Z _death: also chance of fun with delete-package
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2020-11-05T21:56:06Z Xach: Hmm, is there a way to get a "fast" (fill array 0) where array is a specialized vector of a supported integer type?
2020-11-05T21:56:10Z Xach: in sbcl, that is
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2020-11-05T22:03:14Z phoe: Xach: in theory you could pin the object, get the vector-sap, and then call memset on it
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2020-11-05T22:03:33Z phoe: but I wonder if #sbcl has it wrapped in a nicer way
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2020-11-06T00:45:31Z astronavt: is there an elegant lisp shorthand for `(if foo foo bar)`? not that it's such a big deal, but it might be nice if `foo` is a complicated expression, so it would eliminate a LET and a level of indentation
2020-11-06T00:45:49Z astronavt: like how in most shells you can write ${foo:-$bar}
2020-11-06T00:46:19Z aeth: iirc (not tested) you can say (or foo bar)
2020-11-06T00:46:28Z aeth: I prefer the long way because it's clearer, though
2020-11-06T00:46:42Z astronavt: ah yep that works
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2020-11-06T00:46:59Z astronavt: havent touched lisp in a while, i feel like i forgot a lot of things
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2020-11-06T00:51:58Z phadthai: I've used it intensively around 2011-2012, then rather rarely (other than running applications written in it), until recently when I used it more again... I was bit by the same forms as when beginning: defclass, let, cond (mostly because of the consecutive parens/nested lists) then felt some frustration IRT emacs that I don't normally use other than for Lisp, but after a few days it was already easier
2020-11-06T00:52:05Z phadthai: fortunately
2020-11-06T00:54:04Z astronavt: youve probably forgotten more than i ever knew
2020-11-06T00:55:42Z phadthai: I remembered most of the language itself, but the forks can admitedly be strange at first, or sometimes the function name or argument order that are not always consistent in CL (drawbacks of a long historyevidence of a long history)
2020-11-06T00:55:46Z phadthai: oops
2020-11-06T00:55:55Z phadthai: inadvertently pressed enter when editing
2020-11-06T00:57:28Z phadthai: today I looked again at paredit but like when I first did back then, I doubt I'd ever get used to it, at least not without making modifications or using alternate keyboard bindings
2020-11-06T00:58:04Z phadthai: C-M b/f is awkwardly acrobatic
2020-11-06T00:58:56Z phadthai: even for an advanced typer and guitar player heh
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2020-11-06T00:59:52Z phadthai: s/forks/forms/
2020-11-06T01:00:50Z phadthai: hmm something else I also noticed is that I rarely find MAP/MAPCAR/MAPC forms aesthetic because of the LAMBDA placement
2020-11-06T01:01:10Z phadthai: no matter how I reformat/reindent them
2020-11-06T01:02:03Z phadthai: if the function is not inline then it's cleaner of course
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2020-11-06T01:09:25Z phadthai: oh and I got bit again sometimes by symbol conflicts between packages and stale functions in the image that were no longer in the code but still active and getting executed inadvertently when I was reworking code, the new changes were not working as expected, then when I restarted the image the new function wasn't running anymore either, for the same reason that it depended on another function in the old
2020-11-06T01:09:31Z phadthai: image
2020-11-06T01:09:38Z phadthai: some care with details is necessary with long running images
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2020-11-06T01:13:08Z phadthai: also, being more used to static languages I tend to see more unexpected run-time conditions with CL
2020-11-06T01:14:35Z astronavt: honestly i dont take full advantage of the whole image based dev thing
2020-11-06T01:15:06Z astronavt: i see it as a prototyping convenience basically
2020-11-06T01:15:27Z astronavt: but i dont use emacs anyway
2020-11-06T01:15:57Z phadthai: yes depending on use case it's more or less convenient
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2020-11-06T01:17:05Z phadthai: I was playing with a daemon so it was convenient to remain connected to it with slime/swank
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2020-11-06T01:19:22Z phadthai: then with some drawing functions so it was nice to test them live a-la-LOGO
2020-11-06T01:22:19Z phadthai: welcome back to lisp, btw
2020-11-06T01:23:14Z astronavt: thanks
2020-11-06T01:24:27Z astronavt: i was actually just wondering, is there a standalone swank-like server that doesn't depend on emacs?
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2020-11-06T01:26:11Z astronavt: it looks like Sly has a "standalone" emacs-less mode
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2020-11-06T01:31:30Z phadthai: I've not looked much into alternatives so I don't really know
2020-11-06T01:32:10Z phadthai: I know there are commercial IDEs, some non-commercial pet project ones (I don't remember names without searching), and there was a less powerful but similar connector for vim
2020-11-06T01:33:07Z astronavt: yeah i know about the commercial ones. i just use neovim
2020-11-06T01:33:14Z phadthai: I think I tried the latter once and it may have been in an early phase, despite being a vim user I kept emacs+slime for CL back then
2020-11-06T01:33:30Z astronavt: slimv and vlime are both attempts to replicate slime in vim
2020-11-06T01:33:38Z phadthai: ah it was slimv
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2020-11-06T01:33:59Z astronavt: yeah slimv is +/- 10 yrs old so that sounds about right since you said you stopped using lisp in 2011-'12
2020-11-06T01:34:59Z astronavt: neovim nowadays is very "client-server" oriented, i dont like using these big monolithic plugins when i can avoid it
2020-11-06T01:35:16Z phadthai: ok, I'm not familiar with neovim
2020-11-06T01:36:10Z astronavt: if you are still a vim user i recommend at least checking it out. vim has come pretty far since the stagnant days when nvim was released, but nvim is pushing things in a different direction from vim
2020-11-06T01:37:30Z astronavt: it's less powerful than emacs in a lot of ways still, but i think that will start to change as people write more emacs-like tooling using nvim-only features. but i dont think there are many vim/nvim-using lisp devs out there..
2020-11-06T01:37:42Z astronavt: ive met a few in this channel before but they seem to be the minority
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2020-11-06T01:40:28Z phadthai: hmm ok, thanks, I might try it for lisp eventually if it's a viable alternative perhaps, although I tend to prefer light applications to emacs-like "os-like" ones
2020-11-06T01:42:14Z phadthai: so emacs is the current exception because of slime, albeit I still only run it in a terminal
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2020-11-06T04:26:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-06T04:39:02Z Nilby: Good morning beach! (and Kazakstan and Kenya, sunlightwise)
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2020-11-06T07:24:11Z ldbeth: what could be optimal data structure for collections (sets) of fixnum pairs with fast union op and search on both fst and snd number?
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2020-11-06T07:27:27Z beach: Two hash tables comes to mind, but maybe that's not fast enough.
2020-11-06T07:28:00Z beach: It may depend a bit on the total number of pairs.
2020-11-06T07:29:01Z ldbeth: it's mean to represent edges in a graph, where each nodes are represented by a fixnum
2020-11-06T07:29:25Z ldbeth: the graph won't be very large in most case, though
2020-11-06T07:29:47Z beach: That won't work in general.
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2020-11-06T07:30:11Z beach: For example, in a graph that that can have multiple edges between any pair of nodes.
2020-11-06T07:31:02Z ldbeth: that is considered as one edge for my purpose
2020-11-06T07:31:35Z ldbeth: to be precise, it represents if two nodes are connected directly
2020-11-06T07:32:04Z beach: I see.
2020-11-06T07:35:41Z ldbeth: For now I just use a generic set data structure made of red black tree
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2020-11-06T07:56:58Z beach: If queries are much more common than modifications, a binary search would be faster than a complicated tree structure.
2020-11-06T07:58:48Z ldbeth: and mergeing two binary search trees are more easier than rbtree
2020-11-06T07:59:40Z ldbeth: ok, I find the thing called "bloom filter"
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2020-11-06T15:22:20Z jmercouris: other than find, is there a zerop equivalent to check if a vector contains only zeros?
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2020-11-06T15:24:30Z Josh_2: (every #'zerop #(0 0 0 0))
2020-11-06T15:24:36Z jmercouris: so far, I am only thinking of (find-if-not #'zerop ...)
2020-11-06T15:24:45Z jmercouris: wouldn't every be slower?
2020-11-06T15:25:03Z cl-arthur: Josh_2: beat me to it by two seconds!
2020-11-06T15:25:14Z Josh_2: cl-arthur: I war racin!
2020-11-06T15:25:31Z Josh_2: jmercouris: depends if it breaks out on the first non-zero instance or not, I don't know if it does
2020-11-06T15:25:53Z cl-arthur: jmercouris: every short-circuits when there's a failure
2020-11-06T15:26:00Z Josh_2:  'until a termination criterion is met or the end of the shortest of the sequences is reached'
2020-11-06T15:26:02Z jmercouris: I see, so it is the same speed then probably, if not faster
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2020-11-06T15:27:19Z cl-arthur: every expresses the intent of all vector elements satisfying predicate much better than find-if/find-if-not IMO
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2020-11-06T15:28:10Z jmercouris: I agree with you
2020-11-06T15:28:34Z escanda: jmercouris, if it's a simple array you could check the fill-pointer with (fill-pointer array), if it's zero, there you go. probably fastest way
2020-11-06T15:29:24Z jmercouris: I like every the most, cl-arthur makes a very good argument
2020-11-06T15:29:33Z jmercouris: thanks everyone
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2020-11-06T15:50:54Z jackdaniel: (defun zerop* (arg) (and (numberp arg) (zerop arg)))
2020-11-06T15:51:23Z jackdaniel: for arbitrary input
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2020-11-06T18:27:49Z jonathan|: Client: HexChat 2.14.3 • OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Home Basic (x64) • CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i3 CPU       M 330  @ 2.13GHz (2.13GHz) • Memory: 3.8 GiB Total (1.0 GiB Free) • Storage: 156.5 GiB / 581.3 GiB (424.8 GiB Free) • VGA: Realtek Wifi Display VGA Adapter, Intel(R) Graphics Media Accelerator HD • Uptime: 2d 13h 33m 3s
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2020-11-06T18:31:26Z phoe: jonathan|: congrats!
2020-11-06T18:32:02Z phoe: you can run Common Lisp on such a machine without a problem
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2020-11-07T04:02:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-07T04:27:53Z imode: allo.
2020-11-07T04:31:28Z beach: Hello imode.
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2020-11-07T04:32:52Z imode: o/
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2020-11-07T09:43:34Z ldbeth: I decide to use Common Lisp's bignum for bitset
2020-11-07T09:43:52Z phoe: bitset? what do you mean?
2020-11-07T09:45:51Z ldbeth: it is like a set data structure exclusivly for fixnums
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2020-11-07T09:46:11Z ldbeth: with test for member, union, intersect etc
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2020-11-07T09:47:46Z ldbeth: represented with a bit in the corresponding place in the bigum
2020-11-07T09:49:34Z jfb4_ is now known as jfb4
2020-11-07T09:49:58Z edgar-rft: ldbeth: make a bignum so big that it allocates the entire memory of your computer, then use it as a virtual machine and write programs in it
2020-11-07T09:50:37Z phoe: ldbeth: so, like, if you have the number 127 then you the 127th bit in your bignum is set?
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2020-11-07T09:50:52Z phoe: s/then you/then/
2020-11-07T09:51:32Z aeth: edgar-rft: that bignum could be used to download YouTube videos, so it would receive a DMCA.
2020-11-07T09:51:37Z ldbeth: phoe: yes, it is because the index won't exceed 100 most of the time, and I want fast union operation
2020-11-07T09:52:18Z phoe: ldbeth: that would kinda work, I guess, though I wonder if a bit array won't be faster than a bignum
2020-11-07T09:52:26Z phoe: the latter is specialized for that sorta thing
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2020-11-07T09:54:08Z ldbeth: yes I think I can use bit array but someting it could reqiure expanding the array
2020-11-07T09:54:18Z ldbeth: *sometime
2020-11-07T09:55:34Z ldbeth: aeth: nice joke
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2020-11-07T10:36:59Z ldbeth: ok, so I wrote as simple prototype, the result is that creating singleton for a large number like 1231234324, is notably slow, and performance on logical OR involves such singleton set is also slow, the only advantage is that test for member is not affectted.
2020-11-07T10:37:38Z beach: Using what representation?  Integers?
2020-11-07T10:37:44Z ldbeth: using bignum
2020-11-07T10:37:49Z beach: Right.
2020-11-07T10:41:30Z ldbeth: I even tried on GCL which uses libgmp as underlying bigum implementation
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2020-11-07T10:42:07Z ldbeth: on ccl it is much much slower on (ash 1 1232132)
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2020-11-07T10:43:18Z ldbeth: so I guess it is not a good idea unless I take other optimizations, for making it praticle
2020-11-07T10:44:08Z ldbeth drop it
2020-11-07T10:44:38Z phoe: allocating bignums this large is going to be slow because e.g. for marking 1232132 you must allocate (expt 2 1232129) bytes of memory
2020-11-07T10:45:01Z phoe: bit array operations might be faster than number operations though
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2020-11-07T13:01:18Z Xach: bit-array operations can also destructively modify a result vector rather than consing a fresh one
2020-11-07T13:01:26Z Xach: bit-vector, rather
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2020-11-07T13:31:30Z phoe: ^
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2020-11-07T14:07:13Z Xach: i use that in my search engine a bit
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2020-11-07T14:12:37Z _death: https://nlp.stanford.edu/IR-book/html/htmledition/an-example-information-retrieval-problem-1.html
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2020-11-07T16:03:57Z gproto23: Terry Davis Interview - https://youtu.be/HXwNTw4I6Ok - He was answering lisp questions.
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2020-11-07T16:05:59Z Josh_2: Terry Davis is epic
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2020-11-07T16:06:05Z Josh_2: I've seen this vid
2020-11-07T16:06:14Z Josh_2: but It's pretty off-topic honestly
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2020-11-07T16:11:29Z gproto23: Josh_2: it might be useful for someone as this is related to general programming languages.
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2020-11-07T18:41:34Z dddd: Hi. In CL, is there some convenient way to achieve the same as read-line, but limit the maximum number of bytes? I am aware of read-sequence, but I preferably want to read directly into a string (and perhaps this is already possible with read-sequence?). It is reading from a cl+ssl stream with :external-format '(:utf-8 :eol-style :crlf)
2020-11-07T18:44:23Z phoe: you'll likely want a custom reading function then
2020-11-07T18:44:52Z phoe: where the termination test is either you are reading a newline or you've exhausted the sequence
2020-11-07T18:45:00Z dddd: From my understanding it will be more efficient to use some sort of buffered IO rather than e.g. repeatedly calling read-byte?
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2020-11-07T18:48:08Z dddd: Alternatively, could I convert a byte array (filled by read-sequence) containing these UTF8 encoded characters to a string easily?
2020-11-07T18:49:11Z phoe: yes, flex:octets-to-string
2020-11-07T18:49:14Z phoe: from flexi-streams
2020-11-07T18:50:00Z dddd: Would you think this would be better than creating a custom read function which calls read-byte repeatedly?
2020-11-07T18:52:18Z phoe: I think so, yes
2020-11-07T18:52:26Z phoe: then you can search for #\Newline in this string
2020-11-07T18:52:30Z phoe: and possibly trim it as required
2020-11-07T18:53:05Z dddd: Thank you. How about babel? According to stack overflow it should be several times faster than flexi-streams
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2020-11-07T18:55:28Z phoe: use babel then!
2020-11-07T18:55:43Z phoe: I was about to suggest it but I have more experience with flex than with babel
2020-11-07T18:56:01Z dddd: OK thanks. I will give it a try
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2020-11-07T19:05:23Z dddd: Ahh it will not work as the client will not close the connection after sending a request (so read-sequence hangs). I guess I will use read-line and hope for the best.
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2020-11-07T19:07:20Z phoe: you might want to use LISTEN on the stream before reading a char
2020-11-07T19:07:25Z phoe: such is life with network sockets
2020-11-07T19:07:56Z Alfr: dddd, same problem when someone (maybe intentionally) forgets to send the new line. oO
2020-11-07T19:08:52Z dddd: Yea. My worry with read-line is that someone could possibly just flood the stream with loads of content. I would like to limit it to 1024 bytes
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2020-11-07T19:14:33Z thmprover: Random question: if there's one physical book (not an e-book) reference to have on Common Lisp, what should it be for someone who's read SICP and coming from a Scheme background?
2020-11-07T19:14:49Z phoe: Practical Common Lisp
2020-11-07T19:15:13Z easye: thmprover: The last 44 pages Graham's _ANSI Common Lisp_ does just fine in a pinch.
2020-11-07T19:16:03Z thmprover: Good recommendations, I'll look into both of them. Thanks :)
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2020-11-07T19:16:19Z easye: Graham is definitely opinionated, unfortunately eliding great swathes of the 978 symbols.
2020-11-07T19:16:31Z easye: But it does contain an entry for every symbol.
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2020-11-07T19:17:24Z easye: More condensed would be the cool A5 <http://www.cheat-sheets.org/saved-copy/clqr-letter-booklet-all.2011-10-12.pdf>: print it, fold it in half, staple, and it fits in yer back pocket.
2020-11-07T19:17:58Z easye: Err A5: multiple ways of printing, actually.
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2020-11-07T19:18:09Z thmprover: Follow up: when is it worth-while to invest in purchasing "Common Lisp the Language"?
2020-11-07T19:18:21Z phoe: which edition? the second?
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2020-11-07T19:18:28Z phoe: it's mostly okay
2020-11-07T19:18:58Z easye: Every text is worth it.  There are certainly only around (expt 2 4) that you will come back to.
2020-11-07T19:19:09Z thmprover: Yeah, the second edition (I presume the first edition has misleading or revised statements).
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2020-11-07T19:19:49Z easye: Definitely pick up the second edition of "CLtL":  sell the other on eBay...
2020-11-07T19:21:14Z thmprover: Oh yeah, Seibel's "Practical Common Lisp", that's a good introductory text. I was looking for more of a reference than a tutorial.
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2020-11-07T19:22:34Z easye: _PCL_ popularized the Naughties Lisp Renaissance.  It was certainly foundational to the new CL Lispers like me.
2020-11-07T19:23:04Z thmprover: Oh, by all means, it is a wonderful text. Do not get me wrong!
2020-11-07T19:23:20Z thmprover: I'm just looking for a dictionary, not a novel, y'know?
2020-11-07T19:23:23Z easye: But not a "Reference", agreed.
2020-11-07T19:23:54Z easye: Again, there are only probably a dozen or so books about ANSI CL that you want to read again.
2020-11-07T19:24:27Z easye: _Common Lisp Recipes_ is quite good to read in conjunction with a close reading of the references.
2020-11-07T19:25:05Z thmprover: Well, I also program on a computer without a GUI, so I can't really read PDFs (etc.) easily...which is why I ask for a paper-based reference.
2020-11-07T19:25:14Z easye: Edi's text points out a lot of approaches using parts of contemporary implementations you might not otherwise consider.
2020-11-07T19:25:26Z easye: Emacs reads PDFs these days.
2020-11-07T19:26:15Z thmprover: Yeah, it does, but within a XWindows system. It's not too good reading PDFs without XWindows.
2020-11-07T19:26:20Z easye: Personally, I make sure that M-x slime-hyperspec-lookup works in the absence of the network and leave it at that.
2020-11-07T19:26:48Z easye: (either W3m or eww do just fine with the HyperSpec)
2020-11-07T19:27:03Z thmprover: I never knew there was a slime-hyperspec-lookup command! Amazing! Thanks :)
2020-11-07T19:27:21Z easye: Even though there is the belief that "CLHS is just for implementors", it works fine for me.
2020-11-07T19:28:05Z easye is technically an "implementor" at this point (ABCL).
2020-11-07T19:28:33Z thmprover: Yeah, w3m works well with slime-hyperspec-lookup, this is very do-able. Wonderful!
2020-11-07T19:28:59Z easye: Cool.  Yeah, you should have specified non-print, non-pdf a little earlier.
2020-11-07T19:29:04Z easye: ;)
2020-11-07T19:29:29Z thmprover: Well, I think I'm probably going to invest in CLTL down the road, because I don't have reliable internet either :(
2020-11-07T19:29:58Z easye: Like I said, there are only around a dozen "desert island" ANSI books.  Gotta get them all!
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2020-11-07T19:30:39Z easye: But new ones are still being written, for instance phoe & co's tome on the condition system.
2020-11-07T19:31:16Z easye: I never really understood it until watching others try to describe it.  Pittman's paper was a great start, but I just didn't get it well enough.
2020-11-07T19:31:36Z thmprover: Is there a list written down somewhere of the "desert island" books? Or is it, sadly, "You will know after you read them"?
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2020-11-07T19:31:59Z easye: Basically anything minion has a reference to would be in there.
2020-11-07T19:32:13Z easye: minion: whatz happenin?
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2020-11-07T19:32:18Z minion: whatz happenin: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I?
2020-11-07T19:32:54Z easye: (anti-spam tip: you can DCC with minion to yer heart's desire)
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2020-11-07T19:35:20Z dddd: Is there some way to "break" a dotimes loop early?
2020-11-07T19:35:42Z phoe: dddd: RETURN
2020-11-07T19:36:02Z phoe: dotimes establishes an unnamed block around its body, so you can RETURN-FROM NIL or RETURN from it.
2020-11-07T19:36:34Z dddd: Thanks!
2020-11-07T19:37:07Z easye: (ql:quickload :hyperspec) will cache a local copy of the CLHS HTML.
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2020-11-07T20:01:51Z phoe: pve: FYI, https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1903413
2020-11-07T20:02:01Z phoe: it might hit you if you create a ton of anonymous classes
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2020-11-07T20:26:37Z escanda: hi! do you know of a GraphQL server in CL?
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2020-11-07T20:28:57Z phoe: I know only clients
2020-11-07T20:30:18Z escanda: it seems Shinmera did some effort on a client. phoe, would you please point me to them?
2020-11-07T20:30:52Z easye: escanda: <https://github.com/Shinmera/cl-graphql>
2020-11-07T20:31:27Z escanda: that one I know of. but it seems it's a bit in its early stages
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2020-11-07T20:31:38Z phoe: escanda: you could ask him on #shirakumo for details, possibly
2020-11-07T20:31:41Z phoe: I don't know of any other efforts
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2020-11-07T20:36:30Z escanda: i'll download cl-graphql and take a look and then try to talk with Shinmera. btw, another area lacking is parser generators, a port of antlr4 runtime could rock
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2020-11-07T20:38:14Z dddd: How may I produce a list of files and subdirectories within a given directory? PCL Ch. 14 presents 'directory as doing this, however it doesn't seem to produce anything on my end. E.g. (dolist (x (describe (directory #p"./"))) (format t "~a " x)) is just nil
2020-11-07T20:39:16Z dddd: Correction: It gives a list with the path to the directory - not its contents
2020-11-07T20:39:58Z dddd: Oh and that describe is not supposed to be there o.o
2020-11-07T20:41:34Z _death: you can try (directory "./**/*.*")
2020-11-07T20:41:55Z dddd: Ah I see now in the Hyperspec it should be a wild path
2020-11-07T20:42:42Z dddd: This seems to recursively return subdirectories/files. Is there a way to give it only for the specified directory?
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2020-11-07T20:43:14Z dddd: Nvm, was once again mistakingly using some extra functions in there
2020-11-07T20:43:51Z dddd: (directory #p"./*.*") seems to work nicely
2020-11-07T20:43:57Z Josh_2: I personally like to use asdf for playing with the file system (asdf/cl:directory "/*") returns all the directories in /
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2020-11-07T20:45:23Z dddd: That does not include the files within the parent directory though
2020-11-07T20:45:33Z Josh_2: oh
2020-11-07T20:45:37Z Josh_2: ʕ·͡ᴥ·ʔ
2020-11-07T20:46:08Z Josh_2: it does include files
2020-11-07T20:46:41Z Josh_2: I don't think I understand what you are asking, but what I posted returns the contents of the directory including files
2020-11-07T20:47:50Z dddd: For me the following: (dolist (x (asdf/cl:directory "./*")) (format t "~a " x))  only prints the subdirectories. I would like a result similar to "ls -a". However the approach suggested by _death works nicely.
2020-11-07T20:48:12Z Josh_2: what
2020-11-07T20:48:40Z Josh_2: well what I said appears to function the same as ls -a to me
2020-11-07T20:48:52Z Josh_2: but you have a solution so It's all good :)
2020-11-07T20:48:56Z dddd: That is strange. I am using SBCL if that should have anything to say
2020-11-07T20:49:01Z Josh_2: so am I
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2020-11-07T20:49:06Z _death: you shouldn't use any asdf/xxx package.. only asdf (or uiop)
2020-11-07T20:49:13Z Josh_2: why not?
2020-11-07T20:49:46Z Josh_2: use (uiop:directory* ..) does the same
2020-11-07T20:49:51Z _death: Josh_2: the names from these packages that should be public are re-exported from asdf.. the structure of these packages is an implementation detail
2020-11-07T20:49:58Z Josh_2: oh right I see
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2020-11-07T21:06:23Z Xach: Another approach is to define them in the interface package (so they print with the right home) and import them into the implementation package.
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2020-11-08T04:15:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-08T08:42:07Z phoe: helloooo
2020-11-08T08:45:24Z pve: phoe: thank you for the heads up re: anonymous classes
2020-11-08T08:46:32Z phoe: pve: there is also a solution posted by no-defun-allowed
2020-11-08T08:46:46Z pve checks
2020-11-08T08:46:57Z phoe: don't add the anonclass to the list of subclasses of standard-object
2020-11-08T08:47:18Z phoe: https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm/-/blob/master/Code/Objects/MOP/netfarm-class.lisp#L179-187
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2020-11-08T08:50:10Z pve: yes I see, that's good to know
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2020-11-08T08:52:15Z pve: though I have not yet committed to using anonymous classes
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2020-11-08T08:56:12Z pve: I might have been in the clear anyway, because I believe the code I have for removing classes tries to clear those links
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2020-11-08T14:11:01Z Josh_2: Has anyone here made a webdev framework in CL?
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2020-11-08T14:18:44Z Josh_2: frameworks do seem pretty cringe to me when you can just generate html and js per request
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2020-11-08T14:24:58Z escanda: makes sense when you want to decouple the frontend from the backend. in particular graphql seems pretty promising deprecating rest calls
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2020-11-08T14:29:41Z ldb: good evening
2020-11-08T14:29:47Z Josh_2: hey
2020-11-08T14:29:59Z escanda: beside, cl doesn't have yet a solid component framework (aside from weblocks and ucw - which is unmaintained)
2020-11-08T14:30:18Z Josh_2: what is a component framework?
2020-11-08T14:31:05Z escanda: you define functional blocks, which are rendered in some way, which maintain state, and let you do stuff such as a counter on a site across requests
2020-11-08T14:31:19Z Josh_2: hmm
2020-11-08T14:31:22Z Josh_2: that seems like a fun project
2020-11-08T14:31:38Z escanda: but then you can build upon them stuff such as datatables, wizards, etc...
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2020-11-08T14:31:46Z Josh_2: wizards?
2020-11-08T14:31:46Z ldb: too scared to write web
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2020-11-08T14:32:43Z Josh_2: huh?
2020-11-08T14:33:55Z ldb: i mean, i only know how to generate plain html and js
2020-11-08T14:34:09Z escanda: web is cool with the right tools. otherwise it can become cumbersome
2020-11-08T14:34:40Z Josh_2: ldb: oh right well the major web frameworks are just cringe imo
2020-11-08T14:34:51Z MichaelRaskin: continuation/closure based sessions become expensive if you are not careful, though…
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2020-11-08T14:35:07Z MichaelRaskin: Restas is probably middle-ground
2020-11-08T14:35:53Z escanda: if we'd serialize them and store them somewhere else... so yep. i am not an advocate of continuations on web frameworks
2020-11-08T14:36:27Z escanda: but restas is only a way to define REST style endpoints
2020-11-08T14:36:30Z MichaelRaskin: I think in Restas it is pretty reasonable to define render functions for stuff and compose as needed etc
2020-11-08T14:37:05Z ldb: guess in the old days it was called "callbacks"
2020-11-08T14:37:05Z escanda: i may be thinking of a different framework. let me check a sec
2020-11-08T14:37:24Z Josh_2: http://restas.lisper.ru/    403'd
2020-11-08T14:38:23Z MichaelRaskin: Archimag's GitHub is still online, though
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2020-11-08T14:38:41Z escanda: if it's this one: https://github.com/archimag/restas I think it's not enough for most complex business style apps
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2020-11-08T14:39:24Z MichaelRaskin: It's enough for functionality of business style apps, but maybe not for some of the flashy garbage
2020-11-08T14:40:34Z escanda: if there was something such as JSF for CL (looking at you UCW), that could be great
2020-11-08T14:41:02Z Josh_2: this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaServer_Faces ?
2020-11-08T14:41:09Z escanda: yes hehe
2020-11-08T14:43:40Z Josh_2: I was thinking about writing something along those lines
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2020-11-08T14:47:36Z escanda: Josh_2, take a look at Caveman: http://8arrow.org/caveman/doc/caveman.widget.html
2020-11-08T14:48:22Z escanda: and https://quickref.common-lisp.net/caveman2-widgets.html
2020-11-08T14:49:34Z Josh_2: Yikes at that documentation
2020-11-08T14:49:54Z Josh_2: looks like It's written in org-mode or something
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2020-11-08T14:51:13Z escanda: nonetheless the intent is really fine: they don't use continuations and there are some example widgets for bootstrap
2020-11-08T14:51:47Z Gnuxie[m]: the second one isn't documentation, it's just generated from docstrings so there's probably somewhere where the readme part is rendered properly
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2020-11-08T14:53:04Z escanda: yep. what I am feeling pretty strong is the realm of parser generators where you only have cl-yacc for serious business :(
2020-11-08T14:53:41Z escanda: if I where a lisper I'd give it a try
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2020-11-08T14:57:52Z MichaelRaskin: What don't you like about esrap?
2020-11-08T14:58:17Z MichaelRaskin: (Sure, both PEG and CFG are broken approaches, in a slightly different way)
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2020-11-08T15:00:43Z escanda: didn't know of esrap :) pretty cool
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2020-11-08T15:02:24Z escanda: a while ago I had to write a SQL parser and end up doing everything in java with antl4 because all possibilities I found were quite a pita
2020-11-08T15:05:39Z MichaelRaskin: I wrote esrap-peg to generate Esrap rules from PEG grammar written in an implementation-independent way
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2020-11-08T15:09:36Z escanda: fml. I am pretty dump algorithm wise. but the idea was to write a query planner in cl
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2020-11-08T15:15:29Z MichaelRaskin: Query planner sounds like a lot of algorithmic work
2020-11-08T15:16:53Z escanda: not exactly a common query planner. my boss wrote the whole thing on an algo he developed. but i wanted to put all pieces together in a single service; and for a while I wondered whether I could write it in CL
2020-11-08T15:17:26Z escanda: (it was less work than a vulkano or lattice based planner)
2020-11-08T15:20:04Z escanda: it was basically a branch & bound algo with some variables, but we didn't make it before the startup ran out of cash
2020-11-08T15:21:22Z escanda: good times :)
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2020-11-08T20:27:56Z pve: Hi, I wonder if someone could explain something to me. I'm working on my toy language and have the classes and metaclasses set up the way I want. Everything works beautifully, except I'm seeing some excessive memory usage when defining classes.
2020-11-08T20:28:30Z pve: Here is a reduced example that I believe demonstrates my issue:
2020-11-08T20:28:31Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2115
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2020-11-08T20:29:36Z pve: When I run that script from the shell, I see about 7.5MB used for those 200 classes.
2020-11-08T20:29:51Z pve: That doesn't seem right.
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2020-11-08T20:31:40Z pve: In contrast, doing 200 "normal" (defclass foo-N () ()) ... takes around 200kB
2020-11-08T20:32:03Z phoe: I see the same, and it might be a SBCL-specific question
2020-11-08T20:32:12Z phoe: most likely metaclasses are much heavier internally for whatever reason
2020-11-08T20:33:01Z pve: I might be screwed if that's the case :)
2020-11-08T20:33:19Z phoe: well, ask on #sbcl!
2020-11-08T20:33:37Z pve: oh, good idea
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2020-11-09T01:30:36Z dbotton: I noticed that I can modify the default parameters for a function definition with in the function itself
2020-11-09T01:30:39Z dbotton: (defun dtest (&optional (a '(1 2 3))) (print a)(setf (car a) 3))
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2020-11-09T01:31:01Z Xach: dbotton: that is because modifying literal quoted data like that has undefined consequences
2020-11-09T01:31:10Z Xach: dbotton: you ought not to do it if you like defined consequences
2020-11-09T01:31:10Z dbotton: got it, I figured
2020-11-09T01:31:47Z dbotton: if I use (list 1 2 3) it no longer works
2020-11-09T01:32:26Z dbotton: I assume that the list if created new every time function is called?
2020-11-09T01:32:36Z dbotton: ie not eq
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2020-11-09T01:33:20Z Xach: dbotton: right
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2020-11-09T01:34:19Z White_Flame: the default expression is evaluated on every call
2020-11-09T01:35:09Z dbotton: so no issue to setf on the non literal version of the default
2020-11-09T01:35:18Z White_Flame: right
2020-11-09T01:35:40Z White_Flame: setf'ing into the '(1 2 3) is metaphorically self-modifying the code
2020-11-09T01:36:03Z White_Flame: (in the particular undefined behavior you hit)
2020-11-09T01:36:58Z dbotton: well at least on the implementation I am using
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2020-11-09T01:37:53Z dbotton: thank you
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2020-11-09T01:41:51Z White_Flame: np
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2020-11-09T02:31:55Z dbotton_: ca
2020-11-09T02:32:24Z dbotton_: can I specialize a defmethod parameter on a string value?
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2020-11-09T02:36:30Z Bike: you mean eql specialize?
2020-11-09T02:36:54Z dbotton_: something like it since eql won't work on a string
2020-11-09T02:37:08Z Bike: you can eql specialize on a string, but keep in mind that two strings created separately are generally not eql, so it probably won't do what you want
2020-11-09T02:37:20Z Bike: eql specializers and class specializers are the only kinds
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2020-11-09T02:38:13Z dbotton_: ok so could uses constants as would eq
2020-11-09T02:38:56Z Bike: you could intern the string as a symbol and specialize on tha tinstead
2020-11-09T02:39:19Z dbotton_: makes more sense. thanks
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2020-11-09T02:42:24Z saturn2: you can also define your own specializers, but using a symbol instead would be a better idea if that works
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2020-11-09T02:51:18Z dbotton_: i
2020-11-09T02:51:42Z dbotton_: saturn2 what do you mean by define my own?
2020-11-09T02:53:01Z saturn2: you can make your own subclass of generic-function and write your own compute-applicable-methods method for it
2020-11-09T02:53:43Z dbotton_: neat idea
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2020-11-09T02:59:12Z Bike: some pretty tricky parts of actually doing that though.
2020-11-09T03:00:48Z Bike: see: https://arxiv.org/abs/1403.2765
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2020-11-09T03:05:54Z dbotton_: thanks was just trying to find more info on it
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2020-11-09T03:36:22Z Bike: "Previous work[10] has explored the potential for customizing generic func-tion  dispatch  using  extended  specializers,  but  there  themetaprogrammer must override the entirety of the genericfunction invocation protocol (fromcompute-discriminating-functionon down)"
2020-11-09T03:36:39Z Bike: if this is true (i don't remember enough MOP off the top of my head, but i suspect it is) then there are some pretty serious difficulties
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2020-11-09T03:58:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-09T14:34:40Z cl-arthur: Any recommendations for resources on language oriented lisp programming?
2020-11-09T14:35:04Z Josh_2: I have never heard of that
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2020-11-09T14:36:18Z phoe: what do you mean, language-oriented?
2020-11-09T14:36:37Z phoe: oh, you mean DSLs
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2020-11-09T14:37:12Z phoe: in CL these are most often done by macros and/or string interpretation - see, respectively, LOOP and FORMAT
2020-11-09T14:37:44Z phoe: and also see https://github.com/ruricolist/vernacular
2020-11-09T14:38:44Z phoe: so I'd point you in these three directions
2020-11-09T14:39:27Z phoe: DSLs just macroexpand and/or compile down to plain Lisp - you can see aeth's Airship Scheme or phantomics's April APL as two good examples, too
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2020-11-09T14:40:29Z phoe: also https://github.com/y2q-actionman/with-c-syntax as a tongue-in-cheek attempt at a similar technique, but using reader macros
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2020-11-09T14:46:21Z cl-arthur: phoe: Thanks, I'll check out these examples and see what techniques and design ideas I can snatch :)
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2020-11-09T17:06:10Z phoe: okay, I'll announce the next Online Lisp Meeting tomorrow
2020-11-09T17:06:30Z phoe: Tuesday 17th, starring me, talking about control flow in Common Lisp
2020-11-09T17:06:44Z beach: Excellent!
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2020-11-09T17:37:03Z dbotton: what time and how does one watch
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2020-11-09T17:42:43Z phoe: dbotton: 12:00 CET, https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp
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2020-11-09T17:47:02Z beach: Is CET UTC+1?
2020-11-09T17:47:16Z phoe: https://time.is/pl/CET
2020-11-09T17:47:21Z phoe: yes
2020-11-09T17:47:28Z beach: Thanks.
2020-11-09T17:47:45Z phoe: I never trust myself when it comes to timezones and I delegate to online services such as time.is
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2020-11-09T18:16:47Z lukego: hey is there a "dplyr" library for lisp?
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2020-11-09T18:24:13Z phoe: what's dplyr?
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2020-11-09T18:24:49Z phoe: oh
2020-11-09T18:24:50Z phoe: no idea
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2020-11-09T18:27:47Z lukego: basically a convenient way to transform tabular data. like if you did CL-CSV:READ-CSV and you wanted to do transformations like adding columns with computed values, grouping rows by matching criteria, etc. basically just map/reduce/filter kind of things but made convenient for spreadsheet-ey data.
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2020-11-09T18:28:07Z lukego: but I'll just do it "longhand" now and refactor
2020-11-09T18:32:11Z lukego: (the example I have now is pulling in credit card statements in CSV and wanting to do stuff like compute a category based on regexp match to description, calculate category totals by month, calculate top <n> transactions for each category, etc. I usually do this in R but I'd like to migrate to Lisp. but best to keep it simple until I find my Lisp-hacking legs again.)
2020-11-09T18:36:08Z lukego: finding SERAPEUM:ASSORT is already like 25% of the problem solved
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2020-11-09T18:43:41Z _death: I think there are multiple "data frame" libraries..
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2020-11-09T18:44:36Z dbotton_: phoe I signed up for notifications will try :)  Are there recordings anyplace of the meetings?
2020-11-09T18:46:36Z _death: lukego: maybe check out rho, vellum, cl-data-frame
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2020-11-09T18:54:46Z scymtym: dbotton_: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCymtXMj1M7cKiV9TKLoTtEg/videos
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2020-11-09T18:59:03Z lukego: thanks _death
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2020-11-09T19:30:23Z dbotton_: scymtym thanks
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2020-11-09T23:29:13Z Xach: phoe: what on earth
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2020-11-09T23:29:21Z Xach: the author is actively developing the project already.
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2020-11-09T23:29:48Z phoe: Xach: wait
2020-11-09T23:29:58Z phoe: are they?
2020-11-09T23:30:08Z phoe: I expected the project to be on some sort of git repository
2020-11-09T23:30:25Z Xach: Expect again!
2020-11-09T23:30:29Z phoe: !!!
2020-11-09T23:30:33Z phoe reverts
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2020-11-09T23:30:43Z Xach: he is a person of the Old Ways
2020-11-09T23:31:03Z Xach: when a handshake and a brandy were the only things needed to add projects to quicklisp
2020-11-09T23:31:53Z phoe: okay then
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2020-11-09T23:36:06Z phoe has no brandy; goes to bed to at least try and dream some up
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2020-11-09T23:51:34Z p_l: lukego: I think vellum and related do the most you want
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2020-11-10T00:15:56Z _death: would be interesting to compare this GECO to https://github.com/jorgetavares/core-gp
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2020-11-10T01:37:51Z ldbeth: good morning
2020-11-10T01:38:53Z ldbeth: is there a fast way to count trailing zeros in a number?
2020-11-10T01:39:59Z Josh_2: hi
2020-11-10T01:40:13Z Bike: i feel like i used to know a way but i'm blanking...
2020-11-10T01:42:45Z Bike: maybe not. sbcl uses it internally in the definition of the RATIONAL function, but it's not exported
2020-11-10T01:43:09Z Bike: (and what sbcl does is just the machine instruction)
2020-11-10T01:43:27Z Bike: the standard way is (1- (integer-length (logand x (- x)))).
2020-11-10T01:43:34Z Bike: maybe without the 1-
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2020-11-10T02:00:04Z Alfr: I think with 1- is correct. But you may want to special case 0, if you say trailing zeros are those after the right most 1.
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2020-11-10T02:03:04Z ldbeth: Bike: yes, I think it is correct
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2020-11-10T02:08:26Z ldbeth: I've seen (logand x (- x)) from hacker's delight
2020-11-10T02:08:50Z ldbeth: but i didn't know theres a integer-length function in CL
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2020-11-10T02:56:43Z mfiano: I have used (if (zerop n) 1 (1+ (floor (log (abs n) 10)))) in some codes to count digits, though not sure about trailing zeros.
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2020-11-10T03:02:48Z ldbeth: for GCC and Clang there is __builtin_ctz which will be converted to use some suitable instructions if avaliable on the arch
2020-11-10T03:03:57Z Bike: integer-length on a fixnum is pretty much __builtin_clz (or __builtin_clrsb), but there's no CL operator for ctz
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2020-11-10T04:00:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-11-10T04:01:54Z edgar-rft: it's morning at the beach :-)
2020-11-10T04:01:59Z edgar-rft: Somehow I managed to totally miss the release of Vsevolod Domkin's book "Programming Algorithms in Lisp":
2020-11-10T04:01:59Z edgar-rft: -> http://vseloved.github.io/progalgs.html
2020-11-10T04:01:59Z edgar-rft: -> https://www.apress.com/gp/book/9781484264270
2020-11-10T04:01:59Z edgar-rft: Another problem is that neither the book's website nor the Apress site has any useful hints what the book contains in regards to practical examples. Has any of you already read the book?
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2020-11-10T04:04:02Z beach: edgar-rft: It was available as a public website before it was published, and I read it then.  Phoe read it too.
2020-11-10T04:05:22Z beach: As I recall, it is all about practical examples, such as trees, hash tables, etc.
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2020-11-10T04:06:14Z edgar-rft: but what's so terribly new about trees and hash-tables?
2020-11-10T04:07:07Z edgar-rft: my problem is that the apress text gives me the impression that the book is full of useless vague blah. I'm quite sure that is not the case, but *what* exactly is the point of that book?
2020-11-10T04:07:13Z beach: Not much.  But the code is in Common Lisp.  And he has opinions about different ways of coding hash tables, and how they behave with respect to threads.
2020-11-10T04:07:34Z beach: Not much is new, I mean.
2020-11-10T04:07:47Z edgar-rft: ah, *threads* is an interesting word :-)
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2020-11-10T04:08:54Z beach: Also, don't think that everything has been said about algorithms, given that half the books written by gurus in algorithms and data structures get something simple like binary search wrong.
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2020-11-10T04:11:40Z beach: Oh, and many authors still seem to believe that a memory access and a register operation have roughly the same cost.  There is room for books on algorithms that take modern architectures into account.
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2020-11-10T04:12:20Z edgar-rft: Of course there are many ways to shoot yourself into the foot with wrong algorithmes on complex data structures and it's always useful to read *other* people's opinion about that, and using threads in Common Lisp is a science of its own, I think I'll order a copy of that book. Thank you :-)
2020-11-10T04:12:39Z beach: Sure.
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2020-11-10T08:00:20Z daphnis: is it possible to turn off sbcl warnings about using setq on undefined vars?
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2020-11-10T08:00:33Z beach: You wouldn't want that.
2020-11-10T08:01:13Z beach: Code that does that is not conforming.
2020-11-10T08:01:30Z daphnis: it's just that i'm reading an old book (keene) with examples like that
2020-11-10T08:01:42Z beach: Just replace it with DEFPARAMETER.
2020-11-10T08:02:11Z daphnis: i don't think defparameter returns the object.  it's not  a big deal, but i don't need the warnings right now
2020-11-10T08:02:41Z easye: daphnis: use ccl?
2020-11-10T08:03:48Z beach: It is interesting how our view of default behavior like that has changed over time.
2020-11-10T08:04:37Z beach: The book "The CLOS perspective" says that DEFMETHOD is the normal interface for defining a generic function, but we no longer think that is a good idea, and that instead it should warn.
2020-11-10T08:05:19Z easye: beach: common commercial practice over the last decade seems to be predominantly DEFMETHOD, though.
2020-11-10T08:05:33Z beach: That is very sad to hear.
2020-11-10T08:05:51Z beach: Not surprising though, since commercial is not necessarily good.
2020-11-10T08:05:52Z easye: Don't shoot the messenger.
2020-11-10T08:06:06Z easye: "not necessarily good": ouch.
2020-11-10T08:06:47Z beach: OK, "frequently pretty bad" then?
2020-11-10T08:07:00Z easye: I like the "tightness" of every method defined in the DEFGENERIC, but that form can grow to large lengths.
2020-11-10T08:07:32Z easye: "frequently pretty bad" other than convention, what does one lose by using DEFMETHOD.
2020-11-10T08:07:34Z easye: ?
2020-11-10T08:07:35Z beach: That practice is possible only if all methods are naturally defined in the same module.
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2020-11-10T08:07:52Z beach: easye: It won't catch typos.
2020-11-10T08:08:08Z easye: One defense of DEFMETHOD would be when I extend an existing generic method hierarcy, say in ASDF.
2020-11-10T08:08:10Z beach: As a result, you will have mysterious bugs that take time to find.
2020-11-10T08:08:49Z beach: I have nothing against defmethod.  My problem is the absence of DEFGENERIC.
2020-11-10T08:08:53Z easye: s/hierarcy/hierarchy/
2020-11-10T08:09:02Z beach: The book says that DEFGENERIC is not normally used.
2020-11-10T08:09:22Z easye: "absence of DEFGENERIC"  Ah, I understand and agree with that problem.
2020-11-10T08:09:36Z beach: Just like I have nothing against SETQ or SETF, just the absence of DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER.
2020-11-10T08:10:04Z easye: Agreed.
2020-11-10T08:10:15Z easye: It certainly helps out compiler writers/maintainers.
2020-11-10T08:10:33Z beach: "It"?
2020-11-10T08:11:14Z easye: "it": declaring variables with DEF* even if you manipulate them with SET*
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2020-11-10T08:13:23Z beach: That's not "declaring".  That's "defining".
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2020-11-10T08:13:31Z easye: Alright, corrected.
2020-11-10T08:14:28Z easye ponders the distinction between declaring and defining.
2020-11-10T08:14:48Z easye: Larnin' me some CONS today.  Thanks!
2020-11-10T08:15:12Z beach: Pleasure.
2020-11-10T08:15:39Z flip214: beach: re declare/define: which would (makunbound '*my-var*) be? just declaring, I guess
2020-11-10T08:15:55Z ck_: or "undefining"
2020-11-10T08:16:11Z flip214: yeah, a "value" is defined - the unbound value, though
2020-11-10T08:16:24Z daphnis: is it just i or is chapter 24 in Practical suddenly very difficult
2020-11-10T08:16:43Z beach: The meaning of "declare" or "declaration" is quite clear in the standard, as I recall.
2020-11-10T08:16:59Z easye: daphnis: refresh my memory, what is the title of Chap. 24 of _PCL_?
2020-11-10T08:17:34Z ck_: parsing binary files
2020-11-10T08:17:45Z beach: "declare" to establish a declaration.  See declare, declaim, or proclaim.
2020-11-10T08:17:46Z easye: Oh.  That's where it got real interesting.
2020-11-10T08:18:04Z beach: flip214: makunbound is not in the list.
2020-11-10T08:18:21Z easye: I went off and implemented my own MP3 ID3 parser off of that.
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2020-11-10T08:24:46Z flip214: beach: ah, so MAKUNBOUND is defining after all. thanks
2020-11-10T08:25:13Z beach: That I am not sure about.  Common Lisp is not all about declarations and definitions.
2020-11-10T08:26:19Z beach: "defining form" a form that has the side effect of establishing a definition.
2020-11-10T08:26:23Z beach: Nothing more specific.
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2020-11-10T08:31:14Z lukego: hey is there an idiom anywhere e.g. in alexandria or serapeum for having generic function versions of primitives? e.g. a version of EQUAL that can be specialized on whatever kinds of objects.
2020-11-10T08:31:56Z beach: lukego: As Pitman explains, that is not a good idea, and not possible in general.
2020-11-10T08:32:12Z beach: You would need an additional parameter, like SITUATION.
2020-11-10T08:33:12Z beach: The phone company thinks me and my wife are equal, because we have the same phone number.  But social security does not.
2020-11-10T08:34:19Z lukego: yeah I suppose that I'm only really looking for a shorthand for aggregating my own equality predicts, so the implied situation is "in the context of this program I'm writing", and then it probably makes sense to define my own generic function because I wouldn't want other people's methods. thanks for the sanity-check.
2020-11-10T08:34:50Z beach: www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2020-11-10T08:35:01Z lukego: (I'm mostly tiring of writing ":test #'foo=" types of sequences over and over)
2020-11-10T08:35:15Z beach: Sure, good luck.
2020-11-10T08:35:48Z beach: Yes, then just shadow the predicates you want to alter the behavior of.
2020-11-10T08:35:53Z beach: The names of them I mean.
2020-11-10T08:38:30Z lukego: Tricky business. what I'd really like to do is have my own generic function be the default :TEST for various library functions e.g. from alexandria and serapeum. But only for code belonging to specific packages in which this is idiomatic. So I guess I'd end up having to shadow all those alexandria/serapeum functions and that sounds like a mess.
2020-11-10T08:39:08Z beach: It does.  I don't think the resulting mess would be worth the effort.
2020-11-10T08:39:13Z lukego: indeed
2020-11-10T08:39:58Z lukego: (I guess this is what parameterized modules are about in other languages)
2020-11-10T08:40:23Z lukego: (and I don't know if _that_ mess is worth it either :-))
2020-11-10T08:40:32Z beach: Yeah.
2020-11-10T08:40:53Z lukego: I always wanted parameterized modules in Erlang, until they actually added them to the language, and then I really didn't want to use them :)
2020-11-10T08:41:05Z beach: Heh.
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2020-11-10T08:43:59Z lukego: Lisp and C feel a bit alike in this respect. There are lots of shiny things from the modern era that you can imagine adding to them. Then you see people do exactly that and you think, yeah nah, maybe it was a better idea to just keep it simple and embrace the past :)
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2020-11-10T08:52:32Z beach: Certainly, C++ is a good example from the C world.  And the madness has not finished yet.
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2020-11-10T08:54:25Z shka_: The Endless Madness
2020-11-10T08:54:30Z shka_: that's what it si
2020-11-10T08:54:45Z shka_: but in the case of C++ it is not the sheer number of features
2020-11-10T08:55:00Z shka_: but the fact that the features don't really work together well
2020-11-10T08:55:51Z shka_: that's why I personally consider CL to be a well designed language: it's features work together
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2020-11-10T08:58:01Z shka_: for instance generic functions can be passed around just like normal functions
2020-11-10T08:58:40Z shka_: so compatibility between first order functions and generic functions is maintained
2020-11-10T08:58:41Z shka_: in
2020-11-10T08:59:31Z shka_: and macros simply make everything else in the language more useful
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2020-11-10T09:00:21Z shka_: damn i like CL
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2020-11-10T09:41:13Z easye: Is there a way to force the Lisp PRINT routines to output symbols with package prefixes for all symbols regardless of their presence in the current package?
2020-11-10T09:41:56Z phoe: (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) ...)
2020-11-10T09:42:11Z easye: Ah, that makes sense.  Thanks!
2020-11-10T09:43:39Z phoe: the only exception is keywords, I hope you don't mind :FOO instead of KEYWORD:FOO
2020-11-10T09:44:11Z easye: Nope.  Keywords are the Platonic forms of Common Lisp: there's only one of them, no matter the name.
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2020-11-10T09:44:34Z shka_: platonic forms... nice
2020-11-10T09:44:41Z shka_: i will remember that!
2020-11-10T09:45:34Z flip214: easye: well, with beach' global environments there might be multiple keyword packages as well, I guess
2020-11-10T09:46:10Z shka_: flip214: this is very much beyond the standard CL
2020-11-10T09:46:30Z easye: beach is writing the new standard, I suppose.
2020-11-10T09:46:58Z shka_: More like extending
2020-11-10T09:48:03Z shka_: oh, nope, he is writing the new standard by patching the old one https://github.com/robert-strandh/Well-Specified-Common-Lisp
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2020-11-10T10:14:17Z Posterdati: hi
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2020-11-10T10:15:19Z beach: Hello Posterdati.
2020-11-10T10:15:22Z phoe: heyyyy
2020-11-10T10:15:32Z Posterdati: how are you people?
2020-11-10T10:15:38Z phoe: sleepy
2020-11-10T10:15:43Z Posterdati: :)
2020-11-10T10:15:50Z phoe: third day of intense box-packing
2020-11-10T10:15:56Z Posterdati: phoe: ?
2020-11-10T10:16:13Z phoe: like, major reorganization of space in our flat
2020-11-10T10:16:37Z Posterdati: ah
2020-11-10T10:17:54Z Posterdati: my practice in this matter is pack stuff in every empty space and let the stacks grow until there's no sunlight coming from the window, then throw entire stacks and startover...
2020-11-10T10:18:09Z phoe: in my case it is more like imagine a copying GC but you do not have enough space to make two completely distinct heaps so you need to try and move things piece by piece
2020-11-10T10:18:26Z Posterdati: ah nice
2020-11-10T10:21:14Z Posterdati: please help, is there's a way to invert bordeaux-threads:semaphore mechanism, I need something tha put threads on hold UNTIL count reaches or overflow a value... Thanks!
2020-11-10T10:24:11Z cl-arthur: phoe: alloc into the neighbour flat :)
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2020-11-10T10:25:09Z phoe: Posterdati: how many wakeups are allowed?
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2020-11-10T10:25:25Z phoe: cl-arthur: I've tried that, I got a SIGSEGV
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2020-11-10T10:26:35Z shka_: Posterdati: isn't it simpler to just wait for every pending thread?
2020-11-10T10:26:42Z shka_: or whatever
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2020-11-10T10:28:04Z Posterdati: shka_: I mapcar and reduce thread-alive-p
2020-11-10T10:28:19Z cl-arthur: phoe: *grin*
2020-11-10T10:28:36Z Posterdati: shka_: but the threads shall not exit the are basically never ending loops
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2020-11-10T10:31:44Z Posterdati: shka_: but yes it would be better to do like you said
2020-11-10T10:32:27Z shka_: well, what i usually do is to use lparallel and futures
2020-11-10T10:33:06Z flip214: Posterdati: let them sleep on a semaphore and wake all of them up at once?
2020-11-10T10:33:31Z shka_: but if you can't do this, simply use condition variables
2020-11-10T10:33:34Z shka_: BT has those
2020-11-10T10:34:03Z shka_: https://quickref.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads.html#go-to-the-BORDEAUX_002dTHREADS_2236_2236MAKE_002dCONDITION_002dVARIABLE-function
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2020-11-10T10:34:14Z Posterdati: flip214: the threads wait on a condition variable, the main threads notifies it and threads start to compute, they end at very different times
2020-11-10T10:34:35Z shka_: then you can simply notify once you finish your job
2020-11-10T10:35:17Z Posterdati: shka_: I need to wait all threads complete the jobs to startover again
2020-11-10T10:36:02Z shka_: Posterdati: sure, but why not just loop over all your CVs waiting for the task
2020-11-10T10:36:15Z shka_: once one is finished, it IS finished, right?
2020-11-10T10:36:22Z shka_: it can't become unfinished again?
2020-11-10T10:36:38Z Posterdati: no it can't restart
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2020-11-10T10:37:17Z Posterdati: so I need to recreate the threads every time and put them on wait
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2020-11-10T10:37:33Z Posterdati: then wait for them to finish
2020-11-10T10:37:50Z shka_: ok, you know what? just take lparallel:promise
2020-11-10T10:38:12Z Posterdati: shka_: what is it?
2020-11-10T10:38:42Z shka_: well, lparallel is pretty awesome lisp library for more high level multi-threading
2020-11-10T10:38:58Z shka_: has operations like pmap which is parallelized version of map
2020-11-10T10:39:02Z Posterdati: shka_: ah, ok! Thanks!
2020-11-10T10:39:09Z shka_: it also has thread pool
2020-11-10T10:39:20Z shka_: i use it a lot
2020-11-10T10:39:47Z shka_: anyway, it also offers you more sophisticated synchronization tools like futures and promises
2020-11-10T10:40:43Z shka_: so when you are sending task to your OWN thread, you can create promise, fullfill it in your thread while the waiting thread just calls FORCE
2020-11-10T10:40:57Z shka_: and force blocks until fullfill is called
2020-11-10T10:41:23Z shka_: also, i suspect that you can use lparallel instead of your own threads
2020-11-10T10:41:29Z shka_: i usually can
2020-11-10T10:41:44Z shka_: and if i can, i ALWAYS do
2020-11-10T10:41:56Z shka_: because it is that good
2020-11-10T10:42:09Z Posterdati: ok...
2020-11-10T10:43:13Z shka_: it is really nice to simply do (lparallel:future (this-function-will-take-significant-time-to-finish-so-it-is-sended-to-a-worker))
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2020-11-10T10:44:01Z shka_: and just lparallel:force the resulting object to get the output
2020-11-10T10:44:03Z shka_: OH
2020-11-10T10:44:28Z shka_: and lparallel:force on object that is not promise will turn into identity
2020-11-10T10:44:35Z shka_: imagine how useful this is
2020-11-10T10:44:45Z shka_: lparallel FTW
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2020-11-10T10:45:23Z shka_: but anyway, you can just use promise with your own threads
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2020-11-10T10:45:34Z shka_: or lparallel synchronized queues
2020-11-10T10:46:31Z shka_: but i urge you to learn the whole thing, it is beyond useful
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2020-11-10T10:49:54Z Posterdati: shka_: thanks for help
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2020-11-10T10:49:56Z flip214: Posterdati: well, how about using LPARALLEL?
2020-11-10T10:50:13Z shka_: flip214: you have some bad lags :D
2020-11-10T10:50:14Z Posterdati: flip214: I will look for it :)
2020-11-10T10:50:20Z flip214: oh, shka_ already said that.... answered before reading all of the backlog
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2020-11-10T10:51:24Z shka_: flip214: but that's another vote for lparallel, am i right?
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2020-11-10T10:59:04Z mfiano: I would like to learn more about lparallel futures/promises myself. I use lparallel a lot in a large project, but the websites gets me lost with regard to those, and I keep thinking they would help me in this complicated project if i understood them better.
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2020-11-10T11:01:21Z ldb: ?
2020-11-10T11:02:20Z shka_: mfiano: i don't get chaining either
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2020-11-10T11:03:11Z mfiano: For this project, I just use simple thread pool management, because I ran into callback hell with many levels of asynchronous tasks
2020-11-10T11:04:56Z selwyn: Gnuxie[m]: if you turn up the brightness and contrast in the gov's congratulations tweet to biden, you can find the remains of a congratulatory message to trump
2020-11-10T11:05:04Z selwyn: sorry wrong channel
2020-11-10T11:06:22Z flip214: shka_: yes, I'm using it too
2020-11-10T11:07:04Z flip214: well, pmapcar etc. has always been good enough for me ;)
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2020-11-10T11:20:33Z daphnis: does there happen to be a noun such that x is a <noun> of y iff y is a member of x?
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2020-11-10T11:26:12Z phoe: daphnis: you mean a set theory noun?
2020-11-10T11:26:51Z phoe: then X is a subset of Y if Y is also a set, or X contains Y if Y is an element of that set
2020-11-10T11:27:13Z beach: phoe: I am thinking "container" rather.
2020-11-10T11:27:32Z beach: Y is not a set, but X is.
2020-11-10T11:27:33Z daphnis: phoe: yes
2020-11-10T11:27:40Z daphnis: thanks
2020-11-10T11:28:26Z daphnis: yes, container was what i thought, but i thought there also might be something better or more idiomatic
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2020-11-10T11:45:29Z kreyren: can i use asdf to handle CXX project?
2020-11-10T11:46:01Z kreyren is annoyed with cmake and meson using scripting language to make people suffer 
2020-11-10T11:47:24Z jackdaniel: kreyren: yes, but it will be up to you to provide necessary asdf method specializations
2020-11-10T11:47:34Z kreyren: jackdaniel, eh?
2020-11-10T11:48:03Z jackdaniel: asdf has multiple methods responsible for compilation, loading, building etc
2020-11-10T11:48:17Z kreyren: i would prefer some already written backend tbh because that's adding maintainance..
2020-11-10T11:48:39Z jackdaniel: these methods operate on "component types", by default asdf recognizes "module", "file" (common lisp) and a "static-file" (I think that there are a few more)
2020-11-10T11:48:55Z kreyren: x.x
2020-11-10T11:49:27Z jackdaniel: it is possible to extend the set of existing components (and there are libraries that do exactly that) -- adding "c file compilation" is not hard if you know the underlying abstraction
2020-11-10T11:49:37Z jackdaniel: but yes, there is no out-of-the-shelf solution
2020-11-10T11:49:48Z kreyren: >.>
2020-11-10T11:49:52Z kreyren: going to research then
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2020-11-10T11:51:03Z jackdaniel: if you buy into mindset, that for compiling "hello world" program you use some heavy infrastructure that requires >8gb of ram, then you could use bazel, fare who was asdf maintainer endorsed this piece of software in the past as "the right thing"
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2020-11-10T11:52:26Z jackdaniel: I think that the system cffi-grovel extends asdf in a way that requires compiling C files, so that could be your rod
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2020-11-10T11:55:29Z Shinmera: kreyren: don't bother, asdf is not made for stuff like C toolchains.
2020-11-10T11:59:53Z kreyren: :C
2020-11-10T12:00:02Z kreyren: nothing is made for C/CXX toolchains!
2020-11-10T12:00:07Z kreyren: other then sucky mini-languages >.>
2020-11-10T12:00:39Z Shinmera: the effort required to bend asdf is way larger than to just use cmake.
2020-11-10T12:00:50Z phoe: a bold statement, especially since it's made for ones of the most famous programming languages in the world that have over a dozen of distinct build systems
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2020-11-10T12:08:08Z kreyren: Shinmera, tbh it's more pleasable to rewrite asdf then handle strings for everything like cmake
2020-11-10T12:09:09Z Shinmera: if you think you have an easier time with asdf your c project is trivial and you could just as well just use a makefile.
2020-11-10T12:10:02Z Shinmera: reproducing the actual work and knowledge tools like cmake have for you takes a huge amount of effort.
2020-11-10T12:11:10Z kreyren: this is CXX and it's currently just creating statically or dynamically linked program with options
2020-11-10T12:13:37Z kreyren: Shinmera, ^
2020-11-10T12:13:48Z Shinmera: What do you want me to say
2020-11-10T12:13:49Z kreyren: so basically thing that executes `g++ ...`
2020-11-10T12:14:30Z phoe: this is a very simple project then and standard utilities like make will do just fine - unless you have tens of differently configurable options
2020-11-10T12:15:03Z phoe: still, that's already a #lispcafe kind of discussion since it has nothing to do with Lisp and very little to do with ASDF itself
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2020-11-10T12:20:49Z kreyren: phoe, it has lots of configuration options >.>
2020-11-10T12:22:02Z jackdaniel: this advice may sound silly at first, but hear me out -- rewrite these files to common lisp :-)
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2020-11-10T12:22:28Z phoe: kreyren: how many of those options? tens? hundreds? thousands?
2020-11-10T12:22:36Z kreyren: jackdaniel, that's in plan.. the end-goal is to compile this (with lots of changes) depending on benchmarks
2020-11-10T12:22:56Z kreyren: phoe, currently tens expecting <50
2020-11-10T12:23:01Z kreyren: over time possibly more
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2020-11-10T15:05:43Z eta: how does one read from raw memory in SBCL?
2020-11-10T15:08:40Z phoe: eta: cffi:mem-ref
2020-11-10T15:08:58Z eta: phoe: cheers!
2020-11-10T15:09:34Z eta is exploring the idea of writing a self-hosting common lisp implementation, with a Cranelift backend
2020-11-10T15:09:57Z phoe: what's cranelift?
2020-11-10T15:10:48Z jackdaniel: podnośnik z żurawicy
2020-11-10T15:11:06Z phoe: jackdaniel: well, um, thanks
2020-11-10T15:11:21Z jackdaniel: pleasure
2020-11-10T15:11:24Z eta: phoe, https://github.com/bytecodealliance/wasmtime/tree/main/cranelift
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2020-11-10T15:11:37Z eta: it's a Rust code generator
2020-11-10T15:11:58Z phoe: as in, it turns Rust code into some kind of IR?
2020-11-10T15:12:03Z jackdaniel: so you plan to combine the common lisp type safety with rust's speed of compilation?
2020-11-10T15:12:09Z eta: no, it turns some kind of IR into machine code
2020-11-10T15:12:11Z eta: and is written in Rust
2020-11-10T15:12:16Z phoe: oooh, okay
2020-11-10T15:12:21Z eta: the plan is to write a CL->IR thing in CL
2020-11-10T15:12:37Z eta: compile cranelift to a massive .a, use CL to mmap that and execute it
2020-11-10T15:12:58Z eta: and thus avoid any kind of glibc or C dependency
2020-11-10T15:13:21Z eta: (if I wanted a C dependency I could use LLVM, but that makes things like 10 times more annoying)
2020-11-10T15:13:34Z phoe: the first step is kind of a solved problem, many Common Lisp compilers have this kind of CL-to-IR step
2020-11-10T15:13:50Z phoe: the question is how the IR generated by those maps to the IR accepted by cranelift
2020-11-10T15:14:10Z eta: well I'm doing this from scratch as a complete dunce, partially because it'll be fun (he hopes)
2020-11-10T15:14:56Z phoe: and how easy and safe is it going to be to call cranelift from Lisp and then load the resulting binary code back into the image
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2020-11-10T15:15:39Z eta: indeed
2020-11-10T15:16:04Z eta: well I'm working on that latter part now
2020-11-10T15:16:06Z phoe: and which Common Lisp implementation you are going to use as your test bed for gutting out its native code generator
2020-11-10T15:16:23Z phoe: because I don't think you'll want to reimplement LOOP, FORMAT, CLOS, the condition system and what not
2020-11-10T15:16:44Z eta: well all of those parts are pure CL, right?
2020-11-10T15:17:04Z eta: so in theory that's just a solved problem and you copy-paste liberally
2020-11-10T15:17:36Z phoe: copy-paste from code that is already customized by almost every implementation in question
2020-11-10T15:17:50Z phoe: hence my question, which impl you're going to use
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2020-11-10T15:18:16Z phoe: which flavor of Common Lisp you're going to fork from
2020-11-10T15:18:25Z eta: my answer right now is "no idea, I'll cross that bridge once I have the absolute basics of a Lisp working"
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2020-11-10T15:18:44Z phoe: what do you mean by these absolute basics?
2020-11-10T15:19:03Z eta: good question :p
2020-11-10T15:19:17Z jackdaniel: start with eval ,-)
2020-11-10T15:19:34Z eta: well, yeah, cdr/car/eval/cond and friends
2020-11-10T15:19:50Z eta: but yeah, I will probably need to define that more narrowly
2020-11-10T15:21:12Z eta: phoe, I mean you have your portable condition system, but looking at that, it looks like it needs CLOS
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2020-11-10T15:22:06Z eta: looks like I probably want to extract PCL from something
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2020-11-10T15:23:23Z Shinmera: it looks like every year someone comes in here thinking making another implementation is an easy job of just copying some lisp parts once you have a runtime :)
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2020-11-10T15:24:00Z jackdaniel: npm import common-lisp-runtime
2020-11-10T15:24:01Z jackdaniel: voila
2020-11-10T15:25:21Z eta: Shinmera, that's a worrying statement :p
2020-11-10T15:25:29Z eta: I mean the runtime is the fun part
2020-11-10T15:25:45Z eta isn't too bothered about getting 100% coverage of the common lisp spec
2020-11-10T15:26:04Z eta: also wow, reading ELF files from scratch is a huge pain in the arse
2020-11-10T15:28:04Z Shinmera: If I remember correctly it took drmeister years to get clasp up and running well, even after copying most of the code from ECL.
2020-11-10T15:29:03Z shka_: well, on the other hand the mad lad actually managed to pull it off
2020-11-10T15:29:17Z Shinmera: Against all odds, sure. But those are some very big odds.
2020-11-10T15:29:21Z shka_: imagine doing the same for some other programming languages :-)
2020-11-10T15:29:24Z Shinmera: I can think of a couple other projects that did not manage it.
2020-11-10T15:29:30Z eta: *years*?!
2020-11-10T15:29:32Z eta: oh balls
2020-11-10T15:29:46Z shka_: eta: yeah, drmeister is hardcore
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2020-11-10T15:29:55Z jackdaniel: hard problems are easy given enough time ,-)
2020-11-10T15:30:02Z eta: eh, I mean I've at least got one year of not very challenging university course to fill with something
2020-11-10T15:30:31Z Shinmera: Plenty of other ways to fill that time :)
2020-11-10T15:30:41Z eta: this seems fun though
2020-11-10T15:30:42Z shka_: well, maybe you want to help beach with SICL?
2020-11-10T15:30:50Z eta: disclaimer: my opinion will probably change swiftly
2020-11-10T15:31:06Z shka_: if you are that interested in CL implementations
2020-11-10T15:31:06Z beach: I am taking help only from a selected few at this point.
2020-11-10T15:31:22Z shka_: oh, ok, i wasn't aware of that
2020-11-10T15:31:24Z shka_: sorry
2020-11-10T15:31:56Z eta: I mean it's more that I'm interested in compilers but haven't really had any experience
2020-11-10T15:32:05Z shka_: still, if you wanna see some slick implementation attempt i guess SICL is still something to study
2020-11-10T15:32:07Z eta: Lisp seems like a nice thing to start with
2020-11-10T15:32:11Z eta: shka_, ack, thanks for the pointer
2020-11-10T15:32:26Z jackdaniel: then writing common lisp from scratch is quite bold move ,)
2020-11-10T15:32:33Z jackdaniel: if you have no experience
2020-11-10T15:32:38Z jackdaniel: minion: tell eta about LiSP
2020-11-10T15:32:38Z minion: eta: please look at LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. <http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html>
2020-11-10T15:33:04Z eta: nifty
2020-11-10T15:33:05Z shka_: eta: thing is that CL is pretty big language
2020-11-10T15:33:16Z beach: eta: Did you at least watch my first parts of the online Lisp meeting series "Creating a Common Lisp implementation"?
2020-11-10T15:33:24Z shka_: maybe something closer to LISP1.5 would be easier
2020-11-10T15:33:37Z eta: shka_, probably! I'm not dead set on doing the whole of CL
2020-11-10T15:33:46Z eta: beach, I did not, but I will now :)
2020-11-10T15:33:47Z beach: eta: They tell you what kind of trouble you would run into when choosing the strategy you just described.
2020-11-10T15:33:53Z eta: oh great
2020-11-10T15:34:26Z beach: The next part will be about the problem you run into if you bolt on CLOS at the end.
2020-11-10T15:34:50Z Posterdati: shka_, flip214: lparallel is GREAT! Thanks for suggesting it!
2020-11-10T15:35:06Z shka_: Posterdati: cheers!
2020-11-10T15:35:16Z shka_: and yes, it really, really is
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2020-11-10T15:35:44Z Posterdati: shka_, flip214, please a question, does receive-result wait for task completion?
2020-11-10T15:36:15Z shka_: hm, i think so, but let me check, ok?
2020-11-10T15:36:38Z Posterdati: shka_: where I can paste my whole little test project, so you can see that?
2020-11-10T15:37:06Z Posterdati: shka_: receive-result is what I was looking for!
2020-11-10T15:37:23Z shka_: actually, i think that there is pretty good example somewhere in the manual, just let me find it
2020-11-10T15:37:39Z shka_: i usually use futures
2020-11-10T15:38:03Z Posterdati: shka_: no! Where I can paste my project to show it to you?
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2020-11-10T15:38:39Z shka_: https://lparallel.org/kernel/
2020-11-10T15:38:55Z shka_: Posterdati: yes!
2020-11-10T15:39:26Z shka_: IIRC recieve-results blocks until result can be obtained
2020-11-10T15:39:38Z shka_: most likely it does what you want
2020-11-10T15:40:16Z Posterdati: I created a channel per task (2 tasks)
2020-11-10T15:40:36Z shka_: and just one result?
2020-11-10T15:40:52Z shka_: get your code on pastebin
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2020-11-10T15:42:13Z Posterdati: shka_: no I looped over the channels ang receive-result for every one
2020-11-10T15:42:25Z shka_: ok
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2020-11-10T15:43:24Z shka_: well, i would simply would first map-into futures and then loop over them and force but obviously what you are doing works as well
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2020-11-10T15:43:40Z shka_: so cheers
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2020-11-10T15:44:26Z Posterdati: shka_: what if I create one channel, submit one task and then loop over results from that channel?
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2020-11-10T15:45:17Z eta: beach, I posit that some of the complications you describe can be avoided by making your implementation self-hosting; for example, you can use the bootstrap implementation's macroexpander
2020-11-10T15:45:50Z shka_: Posterdati: you want to read more then you sent?
2020-11-10T15:45:57Z shka_: that's what you are discussing?
2020-11-10T15:47:26Z beach: eta: The "macroexpander"?  That's just the macro function for each macro.  Do you mean using the host macros?  Have you looked at the expansion of some macros, say DEFUN, in, say SBCL?
2020-11-10T15:47:35Z beach: They are quite implementation specific.
2020-11-10T15:48:20Z eta: beach: well, I mean you could do something like what macroexpand-dammit does
2020-11-10T15:48:41Z beach: eta: I look forward to your progress reports.
2020-11-10T15:49:05Z beach: eta: I am not entirely sure what you have in mind, so I can't criticize too much.
2020-11-10T15:49:16Z beach: eta: If you are on to something, more power to you.
2020-11-10T15:49:20Z Bike: the first line of the readme on macroexpand-dammit says "I do not generally recommend this library, either the original version or this version, because both contain bugs."
2020-11-10T15:49:48Z Bike: guicho's version, anyway, and guicho does all kinds of compilery junk so i believe them
2020-11-10T15:49:49Z beach: eta: I also don't know the meaning of "self hosting" in this context.
2020-11-10T15:50:13Z eta: beach: i.e. never writing any C
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2020-11-10T15:50:25Z beach: Ah, OK.
2020-11-10T15:50:33Z eta: the compiler would be written entirely in CL (apart from cranelift)
2020-11-10T15:50:53Z eta: like Rust
2020-11-10T15:52:05Z beach: eta: It sounds like you are interested in doing this partly to learn about compilation and such.  If that hadn't been the case, I would recommend you use the Cleavir implementation-independent compiler framework.
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2020-11-10T15:53:18Z eta: beach: thanks for the pointer; I might well end up taking a look at that if I get stuck or give up with doing my own crazy thing
2020-11-10T15:53:28Z Posterdati: shka_: no
2020-11-10T15:53:50Z Bike: not like cleavir is remotely complete. you could probably learn plenty. doesn't really have its own backend, tho.
2020-11-10T15:53:57Z shka_: Posterdati: then i don't get
2020-11-10T15:53:59Z Posterdati: shka_: I did the magic with one channel and multiple tasks :)
2020-11-10T15:54:38Z shka_: well, channel will block until something arrives so this will work either way
2020-11-10T15:54:45Z Posterdati: shka_: I created one channel, submitted two tasks, then collect their results, then start over if they all completed
2020-11-10T15:55:18Z shka_: just remember that if worker crashes you will never get your results and you will be hanging on the channel
2020-11-10T15:55:40Z shka_: exception safety is kinda important
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2020-11-10T16:17:10Z Posterdati: shka_: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/KZCpynhy8Q
2020-11-10T16:17:43Z Posterdati: sorry
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2020-11-10T16:18:15Z Posterdati: shka_: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/KZCpynhy8Q
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2020-11-10T16:18:34Z beach is reminded that he should work on the next part in the series.
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2020-11-10T16:28:21Z shka_: Posterdati: wow, ok, that is kinda weird
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2020-11-10T16:35:06Z shka_: Posterdati: https://pastebin.com/ENdihL2C
2020-11-10T16:35:11Z shka_: you can do this instead
2020-11-10T16:35:22Z shka_: aslo, you don't need that macro
2020-11-10T16:35:41Z shka_: instead you can define call-thread-function function or something
2020-11-10T16:35:49Z shka_: would be more elegant imho
2020-11-10T16:36:09Z shka_: or just stick it in the line 78
2020-11-10T16:36:25Z shka_: sorry for formatting
2020-11-10T16:36:44Z shka_: you are using tabs
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2020-11-10T16:46:16Z Posterdati: shka_: what is "force"?
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2020-11-10T16:48:22Z jmercouris: m*a?
2020-11-10T16:50:03Z phoe: Posterdati: it is a function that forces a promise; either it returns the promise's returned value, or it blocks until the promise resolves
2020-11-10T16:50:15Z phoe: so, basically, "block until this promise is resolved, and return its value"
2020-11-10T16:50:55Z Posterdati: phoe: ah ok, is what I need
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2020-11-10T17:37:49Z mfiano: how is that different from lparallel:receive-result, which also blocks until a result comes down the channel?
2020-11-10T17:42:06Z Posterdati: shka_: your code does not work :(
2020-11-10T17:42:46Z shka_: Posterdati: weird
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2020-11-10T17:51:23Z Posterdati: shka_: in your example, the quicker task wins on the result, because force won't block
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2020-11-10T18:10:33Z Alfr_: Posterdati, you want to directly use promises for that, not futures, I think. If a future is not fullfilled when forced, the current thread runs body to fulfill it.
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2020-11-10T18:13:20Z Alfr_: But for promises, you have to set a value using fulfill explicitly (possibly in an other thread), otherwise the force will simply block forever.
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2020-11-10T20:11:51Z paule32_: hello, and good afternoon
2020-11-10T20:12:06Z paule32_: i have a problem with installing/starting lisp
2020-11-10T20:12:08Z paule32_: https://dpaste.com/2P5A4S658
2020-11-10T20:12:43Z paule32_: on the paste, there comes the error message fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 8280(tid 0000000000D81460):
2020-11-10T20:12:43Z paule32_: can't find core file at C:Program Files/sbcl/lib/sbcl//sbcl.core
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2020-11-10T20:13:34Z paule32: the version , i download was for windows 10 64bit .msi 2.0.0
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2020-11-10T20:23:51Z Alfr_: paule32, did you install it to a different location? You may have to login again for SBCL_HOME to be set appropriately. (Only guessing.)
2020-11-10T20:24:48Z paule32: which are the files on windows 10 ?
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2020-11-10T20:25:02Z paule32: it seems that sbcl/lib missing
2020-11-10T20:26:36Z Alfr_: paule32, sorry, don't have a Windows here.
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2020-11-10T21:03:33Z paule32:  ak, get it work
2020-11-10T21:03:45Z paule32: something magic on windows 10
2020-11-10T21:03:58Z paule32: windows works with link files *.lnk
2020-11-10T21:04:34Z paule32: they are special, so you can't enter "lisp" or "lisp.exe" at command prompt
2020-11-10T21:05:00Z paule32: it is neccassary to explizit add the .lnk extension for the link file
2020-11-10T21:05:17Z paule32: i did make a work around:
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2020-11-10T21:06:34Z paule32: i created a batch lisp.bat file, set the path to .lnk, and last not be forget: i type "CALL lisp.lnk --load %1 --eval '(exit)'
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2020-11-10T21:07:36Z paule32: now, i can use "SET PATH" ... and type "lisp test.lisp" at any place on the system, to start sbcl
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2020-11-10T22:07:59Z paule32: hello
2020-11-10T22:08:12Z paule32: now, i have a problem with list's
2020-11-10T22:08:13Z paule32: https://dpaste.com/AJANQNNR3
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2020-11-10T22:09:00Z paule32: the last item (line 32 on paste) will not shown by (write at line 35
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2020-11-10T22:15:53Z phoe: paule32: (finish-output) after writing
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2020-11-10T22:19:49Z paule32: ok, thank you phoe
2020-11-10T22:20:08Z paule32: is there a buffer with limited length?
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2020-11-10T22:28:48Z daphnis: did /describe/ change since 89?  (defmethod describe ..) yields common-lisp:describe already names an ordinary function or a macro
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2020-11-10T22:29:29Z Xach: daphnis: yes. specialize describe-object.
2020-11-10T22:30:05Z daphnis: Xach: oh, thanks!
2020-11-10T22:30:35Z Xach: there have been other developments since 1989 which you may encounter
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2020-11-10T22:49:59Z Xach: not many, though
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2020-11-10T23:55:46Z drmeister: Hey folks - does anyone use cffi with-pointer-to-vector-data ((ptr-var vector) &body body)?
2020-11-10T23:56:05Z drmeister: What does it do?   Does it pin the vector in memory while a pointer to it is live?
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2020-11-11T00:00:16Z ck_: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/src/cffi-sbcl.lisp#L175 says yes. Answering until a professional (tm) shows up.
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2020-11-11T00:09:21Z drmeister: Ah - right WWSD. What Would Sbcl Do.
2020-11-11T00:09:29Z drmeister: Thank you.
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2020-11-11T00:11:16Z paule32: hello
2020-11-11T00:11:27Z paule32: i get many errors in sbcl
2020-11-11T00:11:27Z paule32: https://dpaste.com/B3HNDZRN8
2020-11-11T00:11:50Z paule32: give it a "forward" declarations of defun ?
2020-11-11T00:12:25Z Xach: paule32: the parens do not balance
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2020-11-11T00:21:28Z Xach: I suspect our language barrier will prevent any more help
2020-11-11T00:23:08Z paule32: sorry
2020-11-11T00:24:15Z paule32: the problem is not "understanding the function" more be "why does the syntax produce such error's like undefined procedures, that are not forwarded
2020-11-11T00:25:04Z Xach: You have a { when you should have a ( is one problem. Using a variable that is not defined is another.
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2020-11-11T00:32:40Z paule32: https://dpaste.com/BFT4DQSCD
2020-11-11T00:32:50Z paule32: here is a more translated version
2020-11-11T00:33:05Z paule32: with no gurantee, of correctnes
2020-11-11T00:33:23Z paule32: in context of Eingabe := Input := keywprd
2020-11-11T00:33:30Z ck_: paule32: what is first character on line 45 ?
2020-11-11T00:33:37Z paule32: in the upper part there are german words, ok
2020-11-11T00:33:55Z paule32: but i tried to simply the program code as possible i can
2020-11-11T00:34:29Z paule32: arg
2020-11-11T00:34:32Z paule32: yes
2020-11-11T00:34:33Z paule32: {
2020-11-11T00:34:39Z paule32: seems wrong
2020-11-11T00:34:42Z paule32: indeed
2020-11-11T00:37:29Z paule32: but
2020-11-11T00:37:37Z paule32: there are forward problems, yet
2020-11-11T00:37:40Z paule32: line 30
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2020-11-11T00:37:59Z paule32: in line 34 -> 36
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2020-11-11T04:10:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-11T06:15:21Z dbotton_: Is there a way to have a constant slot on a defclass?
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2020-11-11T06:20:37Z edgar-rft: dbotton_: I'd just define no writing accessor, what still doesn't make the slot unchanchable, but at least it cannot be changed accidentally
2020-11-11T06:21:02Z dbotton_: that works, thank you
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2020-11-11T08:06:40Z paule32: hello
2020-11-11T08:06:50Z paule32: in sbcl, ftype is not declared
2020-11-11T08:07:12Z paule32: so, i can't "declare" functions for "foeward" use
2020-11-11T08:07:49Z paule32: e.g.  (defun foo () (bar))  (defun bar ())
2020-11-11T08:08:10Z paule32: bar is behind foo, so foo doesn't see it
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2020-11-11T08:08:51Z paule32: is there an other way, to "declare" functions in sbcl as "forward" ?
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2020-11-11T08:16:06Z ck_: paule32: ftype is in the standard -- you're probably using it wrong. A simple search gives, for example, https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23624570/sbcl-forward-declaration-possible
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2020-11-11T09:42:10Z phoe: paule32: but this works
2020-11-11T09:42:27Z phoe: (defun foo () (bar)) (defun bar () 42)) (foo) ;=> 42
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2020-11-11T11:48:50Z ck_: phoe: is that extra closing paren a joke?
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2020-11-11T12:14:03Z phoe: ck_: welp
2020-11-11T12:14:05Z phoe: sorry
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2020-11-11T12:20:25Z Posterdati: hi
2020-11-11T12:20:35Z Posterdati: shka_: hi!
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2020-11-11T14:28:49Z Posterdati: shka_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YKVVs_yiQk
2020-11-11T14:29:01Z Posterdati: shka_: promises...
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2020-11-11T14:44:02Z Josh_2: Afternoon
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2020-11-11T14:46:30Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-11-11T16:33:29Z lukego: Hey how would a Lisp package typically reference data stored in its own git repo / directory tree? do you get a path from ASDF, or from the Unix env, or do you specially define a pathname host thingy somewhere? what's an easy way that at least works on unix?
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2020-11-11T16:35:21Z phoe: lukego: a Lisp package does not reference data stored in its own git repo
2020-11-11T16:35:26Z phoe: a Lisp package is a collection of symbols
2020-11-11T16:35:48Z lukego: yeah sorry I mean "package" in the general sense of software package e.g. something you would put on quicklisp
2020-11-11T16:35:50Z phoe: if you mean an ASDF system, then it is usually done via (asdf:system-relative-pathname :my-system #p"foo/bar.baz")
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2020-11-11T16:36:18Z lukego: thanks, that will do nicely!
2020-11-11T16:36:19Z phoe: e.g. on my machine, (asdf:system-relative-pathname :phoe-toolbox #p"foo/bar.baz") ;=> #P"/home/phoe/Projects/Lisp/phoe-toolbox/foo/bar.baz"
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2020-11-11T16:40:33Z scymtym: lukego: constructing the pathname is one aspect, the question whether to load the data at runtime or bake it into the image is another
2020-11-11T16:41:52Z lukego: yeah. Just for right now I'm kicking the bake-an-image issue down the road. Current project is "migrate all the files randomly spread around /home/luke into the repo"
2020-11-11T16:41:58Z lukego: but I'd like to do the images
2020-11-11T16:44:29Z mfiano: lukego: Note however that will not work in a deployed setting.
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2020-11-11T16:49:12Z mfiano: Baking the pathname into the image, then dumping an executable image, will probably not work when the executable is located somewhere else in some user's filesystem. You'll likely want to store relative pathnames, and then build the full pathname at runtime using POSIX argv0, or similar.
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2020-11-11T16:57:38Z scymtym: that's true, but i meant baking the /data/ into the image
2020-11-11T16:57:45Z scymtym: as in (defvar *my-blob* (alexandria:read-file-into-byte-vector CONSTRUCT-PATHNAME)) … (save-lisp-and-die …)
2020-11-11T16:59:19Z mfiano: I see. In my case, I am developing a game engine/games, with many data assets, some single images being half a gigabyte.
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2020-11-11T17:26:08Z ck_: I thought the cool kids now all play in The Cloud, with everything being remote
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2020-11-11T20:53:01Z aeth: Or you could buy a dozen cheap computers and make your own cloud.
2020-11-11T20:53:34Z aeth: *With* first-class Lisp support.
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2020-11-11T20:56:31Z ck_: ok maybe. I'll go implement the Blackjack
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2020-11-11T20:58:56Z aeth: Implement it by first writing an emulator for the RPC-4000. http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html
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2020-11-11T21:05:20Z ck_: :-)
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2020-11-12T04:20:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-12T04:44:34Z feliocrat: Good morning
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2020-11-12T04:47:48Z beach: feliocrat: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
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2020-11-12T05:04:41Z feliocrat: beach: yeah I'm new both lisp and IRC
2020-11-12T05:07:20Z beach: Great!  Welcome!
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2020-11-12T05:10:27Z edgar-rft: I've heard lisp is much easier to learn than irc :-)
2020-11-12T05:12:07Z beach: Maybe you can't become an expert in either, unless you put in the required 10000 hours.
2020-11-12T05:12:18Z feliocrat: beach: Thanks
2020-11-12T05:12:35Z aeth: well, I've definitely put 10,000 hours into IRC :-)
2020-11-12T05:12:58Z beach: aeth: And it looks like you managed to become an expert in doing it.
2020-11-12T05:13:08Z aeth: thanks!
2020-11-12T05:13:18Z beach: Though, the implication arrow goes in one direction only.
2020-11-12T05:13:43Z beach: There are people putting in way more than that in software development without ever learning much at all.
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2020-11-12T05:13:49Z aeth: edgar-rft is the best expert in IRC, though
2020-11-12T05:14:01Z feliocrat: edgar-rft: Both looks like rabbit hole :D
2020-11-12T05:14:54Z beach: feliocrat: Have you found any good resources, like books and such?
2020-11-12T05:15:04Z feliocrat: What is the meaning of experting in IRC Is it like wrting bots etc.
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2020-11-12T05:16:50Z feliocrat: beach: Currently I am reading Practical common lisp. I am in pre midterm week so I'm not studying reasonable amount of time for lisp nowadays.
2020-11-12T05:17:02Z beach: That's a good start.
2020-11-12T05:17:47Z feliocrat: When It's finished I will read Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs ##lisp adviced I am really curious about what is the deal about it( In a good way)
2020-11-12T05:18:15Z beach: It's a good book, but it uses the Scheme language rather than Common Lisp.
2020-11-12T05:18:28Z beach: So you may get confused about the differences in evaluation rules.
2020-11-12T05:19:28Z beach: ... and it's not a book about any particular programming language.  It is rather a book about programming in general, in particular about abstractions.
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2020-11-12T05:23:07Z feliocrat: Yeah I think it is in Introduction to programming in MIT (not sure). I thought that It will give me the lisp enlightenment. I need to read a lot about programming, but one of my primary goal was lisp for reading sicp.
2020-11-12T05:23:41Z beach: It was the MIT introduction.  Now they converted to Python I hear.
2020-11-12T05:24:20Z beach: Again, you need to be careful.  If you learn Common Lisp and then read SICP, you might get confused because the languages are very different in many respects.
2020-11-12T05:26:09Z moon-child: meh, I don't think it's that big of a deal.  There are minor differences, but don't think anything impossible to reconcile
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2020-11-12T05:27:03Z beach: moon-child: Maybe not if you are an experienced programmer with knowledge of several other languages and their differences.  But if you are new to this stuff, it may indeed be confusing.
2020-11-12T05:27:07Z ck_: That might be true, but it still can be a hurdle at the beginning stages
2020-11-12T05:28:06Z feliocrat: In ##lisp pjb said every lisper needs to learn emacs-lisp(Everything happened because of this) common-lisp scheme It would be good fit. Now I am afraid from transition I will read Scheme vs CL before sicp. Or should I postpone it ?
2020-11-12T05:28:07Z moon-child: fair enough
2020-11-12T05:29:19Z beach: feliocrat: I don't think it is that important.  Just be aware that there are differences and expect to be confused from time to time.
2020-11-12T05:31:19Z feliocrat: beach: I will thanks.
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2020-11-12T05:45:13Z loke[m]: Hello, I'm trying to connect to this channel via Matrix, so as to make it easier for me to stay online when I'm in the office.
2020-11-12T05:45:20Z loke[m]: Please let me know if it works well.
2020-11-12T05:46:06Z moon-child: loke[m]: sadly, it does
2020-11-12T05:49:06Z pillton: loke[m]: What is The Matrix?
2020-11-12T05:49:20Z easye: Take the Red Pill to find out...
2020-11-12T05:55:21Z beach: loke[m]: There are some issues.  I am sure that people like Gnuxie[m] can tell you what they are.
2020-11-12T05:55:59Z beach: loke[m]: For example, occasionally, people utter things that don't show up in the IRC channel, even though they think they do.
2020-11-12T05:56:18Z beach: So you may experience unexpected absence of reactions to what you utter.
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2020-11-12T06:06:52Z loke[m]: What username am I seen as?
2020-11-12T06:07:04Z moon-child: loke[m]
2020-11-12T06:07:26Z loke[m]: Whatever you typed was transformed into a username reference. :-)
2020-11-12T06:07:44Z moon-child: `l o k e [ m ]'
2020-11-12T06:07:58Z loke[m]: Oh, an m at the end. Thanks.
2020-11-12T06:08:58Z loke[m]: I'll use this from work for now. There are some annoying filewall configurations making regular IRC a bit tricky. I'm running a Matrix server myself, so this should hopefully be reliable enough.
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2020-11-12T06:11:33Z moon-child: you could also run e.g. a znc server
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2020-11-12T07:08:55Z loke[m]: I could, but I already have this Matrix server set up :-)
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2020-11-12T07:14:26Z easye: loke[m]: #lispcafe might be a better resource for help with Matrix.
2020-11-12T07:15:00Z easye: (although most people in that channel also watch this one)
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2020-11-12T07:34:47Z kreyren: how can i execute `g++ --help` using quicklisp?
2020-11-12T07:35:01Z kreyren: without depenence on bash/sh shell ideally
2020-11-12T07:37:35Z easye: kreyren: UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM ?
2020-11-12T07:40:02Z kreyren: >> (UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM "g++ --help")
2020-11-12T07:40:02Z kreyren: NIL
2020-11-12T07:40:02Z kreyren: NIL
2020-11-12T07:40:02Z kreyren: 0
2020-11-12T07:40:27Z easye: kreyren: (uiop:run-program ... :output :string)
2020-11-12T07:40:47Z easye: And maybe :error :string
2020-11-12T07:41:14Z kreyren: Debugger received error of type: SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR
2020-11-12T07:41:14Z kreyren: Odd number of keys
2020-11-12T07:41:15Z kreyren: Error flushed.
2020-11-12T07:41:21Z kreyren: >> (uiop:run-program "g++" :output :error :string)
2020-11-12T07:41:44Z easye: :output and :error are both keyword arguments that each take an argument.
2020-11-12T07:41:44Z abbe__: ":output :string" too :)
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2020-11-12T07:42:18Z kreyren: eh? o.o
2020-11-12T07:42:58Z easye: (uiop:run-program "g++ --help" :error :string :output :string)
2020-11-12T07:43:33Z kreyren: https://dpaste.com/9ZCJAYNZM.txt
2020-11-12T07:44:34Z kreyren: these are unwanted:
2020-11-12T07:44:34Z kreyren: NIL
2020-11-12T07:44:34Z kreyren: NIL
2020-11-12T07:44:34Z kreyren: 0
2020-11-12T07:44:57Z easye: kreyren: Ignore them?
2020-11-12T07:45:09Z kreyren: easye, it's part of a build system -> not an option
2020-11-12T07:46:09Z easye: kreyren: It is always an option if you write the right code.
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2020-11-12T07:48:34Z kreyren: sorry killed IRC by mistake
2020-11-12T07:48:39Z jdz: (uiop:run-program '("g++" "--help") :output :string)
2020-11-12T07:48:44Z kreyren: easye, elaborate on right code? something lie :verbose nil ?
2020-11-12T07:49:05Z easye: Those "extra" return values are from VALUES.
2020-11-12T07:49:24Z jdz: kreyren: Don't compose the command-line by concatenating strings, especially when using UIOP:RUN-PROGRAM.
2020-11-12T07:49:26Z easye: If your code just wants the string, you have no problem.
2020-11-12T07:49:58Z kreyren: o.o
2020-11-12T07:50:46Z kreyren: jdz, still outputs `"\nNIL0`
2020-11-12T07:50:58Z kreyren: edit `"\nNIL\n0`
2020-11-12T07:51:30Z kreyren: easye, VALUES?
2020-11-12T07:51:33Z jdz: kreyren: You should listen to what others tell you, though, and that those are OK.
2020-11-12T07:51:44Z kreyren: oke O.o i try it with these then
2020-11-12T07:51:46Z kreyren: thanku
2020-11-12T07:51:57Z easye: minion: clhs values
2020-11-12T07:51:57Z minion: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
2020-11-12T07:52:01Z jdz: kreyren: For instance, try passing the result of run-program to LENGTH function.
2020-11-12T07:52:07Z beach: clhs values
2020-11-12T07:52:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm
2020-11-12T07:52:14Z easye goes to get more coffee.
2020-11-12T07:52:32Z kreyren: ah O.o
2020-11-12T07:55:16Z kreyren: are there any projects that are using asdf to handle CXX?
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2020-11-12T07:55:44Z loke[m]: kreyrn: What is CXX?
2020-11-12T07:55:55Z kreyren: C++ programming lang
2020-11-12T07:56:20Z kreyren needs to compile his fork of paludis and decided that he ain't touching cmake nor meson with 20 feet stick
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2020-11-12T07:57:36Z moon-child: kreyren: I started working on a build system in cl bit ago.  Still a bit half-baked, but can post code if you're curious or want a starting point
2020-11-12T07:57:51Z kreyren: i am, thanks
2020-11-12T07:59:28Z moon-child: here https://github.com/moon-chilled/fancybuild
2020-11-12T07:59:43Z kreyren: thanks
2020-11-12T08:00:02Z moon-child: build files aren't supposed to be as big as fancy.build in the example; I was using that as a testing ground and slowly migrating things out into the main source tree/stdlib
2020-11-12T08:00:26Z kreyren: moon-child, my end-goal is basically https://github.com/sagiegurari/cargo-make/issues/486 where after i want to adapt it to build based on benchmarks on the system.. can i use that for it?
2020-11-12T08:01:26Z kreyren: so you are basically defining functions per fancy.build and then executing these?
2020-11-12T08:02:46Z moon-child: yes, but it also gets a 'standard library' from the build system.  It also handles dependency inversion and parallelization (latter nyi)
2020-11-12T08:04:40Z moon-child: skimming gh issue: probably, yes.  Cl is fast and high quality language (items 1 and 2).  I don't know if there are any i18n libs for cl, but it certainly wouldn't be hard to make one (#3).  Injection: can be done using :after/:before in CLOS
2020-11-12T08:04:50Z kreyren: ah i see O.o How did you designed it to handle complicated projects like https://github.com/Kreyren/CM-Paludis that require built libraries?
2020-11-12T08:05:09Z kreyren: if you care to brainstorm i was thinking about adapting the CMake approach and making build file per directory that would be executed O.o
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2020-11-12T08:06:42Z moon-child: Linking to prebuilt libraries: it can be handled by c-binary-buildable
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2020-11-12T08:07:31Z moon-child: or, rather, at the moment c-binary-buildable only knows how to handle c-source-buildables.  But we can add another class, c-library-prebuilt (or whatever), and teach c-binary-buildable how to handle it
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2020-11-12T08:08:14Z moon-child: I don't think a buildfile per directory makes very much sense.  See: nested makefiles.  I think leveraging the existing cl package system and separating out files as needed is a better approach
2020-11-12T08:08:21Z kreyren: moon-child, these libraries have to be build though see https://github.com/Kreyren/CM-Paludis/blob/master/CMakeLists.txt#L20 which are 3 libs that are project-provided and 5 that are expected to be provided by system with option to be project-provided for tests in chroot
2020-11-12T08:08:35Z kreyren: *chroot or VM
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2020-11-12T08:09:37Z flip214: hjudt: looking for a CL job? https://www.brz-jobs.at/Job/923
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2020-11-12T08:10:40Z moon-child: sure, there should be no problem dealing with that.  In this case, we can have another class for c-library-buildable; instantiate it and then make the c-library-prebuilt depend either on that or on the system library.  In the latter case, no targets that are actually built will depend on the c-library-buildable, so it won't need to get built
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2020-11-12T08:12:42Z kreyren: moon-child, i see, how about static and dynamic libs? this project needs to be compiled for either on demand
2020-11-12T08:13:25Z moon-child: that can just be a switch on the c-library-buildable/prebuild
2020-11-12T08:14:08Z kreyren: i see, checking..
2020-11-12T08:14:39Z kreyren: moon-child, what about metadata? I want to rename the project based on something like variable PROJECT_NAME injecting into the code and similar scenarios
2020-11-12T08:14:40Z moon-child: (although, some extra effort may be required if you want to set rpath in the binary.  You have to decide which libraries you want to set rpath for.  But, no other build system handles this well so meh)
2020-11-12T08:14:52Z kreyren: i happy to do extra effort ^-^
2020-11-12T08:14:54Z moon-child: kreyren: by metadata you mean like template files?
2020-11-12T08:15:05Z easye: kreyren: For your use case, I think you ignore the advice from yesterday about not using cmake's abstractions at the peril of re-inventing a *lot* of logic.
2020-11-12T08:15:07Z kreyren: moon-child, no i meant like project name, version handling, codename, etc..
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2020-11-12T08:15:39Z kreyren: easye, peril of what o.o
2020-11-12T08:15:43Z easye: That cmake is complicated is not in doubt.
2020-11-12T08:15:55Z kreyren: over-complicated
2020-11-12T08:16:01Z kreyren: i don't mind complicated things in general
2020-11-12T08:16:03Z easye: The peril of basically needing to replicate a lot of cmake in CL.
2020-11-12T08:16:12Z easye: It's just a matter of implementation time.
2020-11-12T08:16:18Z kreyren: o.o
2020-11-12T08:16:51Z easye: I suppose if your feature set is small enough, because you understand the code, you will have an advantage.  Otherwise you have a *lot* of things to abstract and implement.
2020-11-12T08:17:02Z moon-child: kreyren: I guess I would shell out to sed or perl for that.  That could just be a custom buildable
2020-11-12T08:17:23Z kreyren: moon-child, true
2020-11-12T08:17:39Z easye: cmake is complicated because it does a lot of things that one needs to build portable C++ code.
2020-11-12T08:17:56Z moon-child: (or it could be integrated into core.  But it would basically be a rebuilt-on-file-change from foo.h.in -> foo.h that executes sed 's/whatever/whatever/g' 's/whatever/whatever/g' < foo.h.in > foo.h)
2020-11-12T08:17:56Z kreyren: let me try to adapt that in my project and i will make issues for things that i don't understand (so that docs could be updated if needed) or issue tracking for implementation if that's fine with you moon-child ?
2020-11-12T08:18:37Z kreyren: easye, in which case clisp would be a much better choice ?
2020-11-12T08:18:38Z moon-child: kreyren: I don't recommend using it for any real-world projects unless you feel prepared to do a looooot of work essentially creating the build system.  easye is right
2020-11-12T08:18:53Z kreyren: moon-child, i am propared to do loooot of work!
2020-11-12T08:19:04Z kreyren: especially if you will be maintaining it after ^-^
2020-11-12T08:19:27Z kreyren: bcs my workflow is to automate everything and then hire someone to maintain the unautomatible things or doing community management
2020-11-12T08:19:31Z moon-child: for sure!
2020-11-12T08:19:33Z easye: I don't understand the motivation to use clisp (except as a joke)
2020-11-12T08:19:42Z moon-child: can't promise proper development, but maintanence aye
2020-11-12T08:19:51Z kreyren: easye, what would you use then?
2020-11-12T08:19:58Z moon-child: sbcl, ccl
2020-11-12T08:20:05Z moon-child: franz or lispworks if you like paying money
2020-11-12T08:20:14Z moon-child: abcl if you need java libs
2020-11-12T08:20:28Z moon-child: sicl if you're a hipster (sorry beach ;)
2020-11-12T08:20:31Z kreyren: moon-child, i was thinking quicklisp so that it's implementation independent?
2020-11-12T08:20:41Z moon-child: quicklisp is a package repository
2020-11-12T08:20:55Z easye: Not that clisp isn't a fine ANSI implementation.  It's recent release strategy or lack thereof prevents it from being a Tier 1 open implementation in my humble opinion.
2020-11-12T08:21:05Z easye: s/It's/Its/
2020-11-12T08:21:11Z kreyren: moon-child, that reimplements the common-lisp functions to be implementation independent no?
2020-11-12T08:21:16Z phoe: no
2020-11-12T08:21:19Z moon-child: ah, I think you mean uiuop
2020-11-12T08:21:20Z kreyren: o.o
2020-11-12T08:21:26Z kreyren: ah uiuop then!
2020-11-12T08:21:33Z phoe: quicklisp is the stuff that allows you to auto-download code from the Internet
2020-11-12T08:21:37Z moon-child: yeah, I use uiop.  Tested under sbcl and ccl
2020-11-12T08:21:45Z kreyren: phoe, ah i see O.o makes sense
2020-11-12T08:21:46Z phoe: what you likely mean is portability libraries, and uiop is one of them
2020-11-12T08:21:51Z easye: uiop is shipped with ASDF.
2020-11-12T08:22:06Z kreyren: moon-child, Would you be fine in migrading that on https://git.dotya.ml ?
2020-11-12T08:22:08Z easye: ui
2020-11-12T08:22:10Z moon-child: easye: well, clisp also has relatively poor performance/debugging compared with the tier1 implementations.  I don't think lack of a release strategy is necessarily a problem (though it can be)
2020-11-12T08:22:22Z kreyren: there is a DroneCI and hidden service provided which i prefer to use for automatization and privacy
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2020-11-12T08:23:08Z easye: moon-child: agreed.  But it is surprising how widespread clisp is available from various package systems.
2020-11-12T08:23:25Z phoe: easye: thanks to its name.
2020-11-12T08:23:33Z easye: I think because it suggests that clisp stands for "Common Lisp".
2020-11-12T08:23:36Z easye: phoe: Yep.
2020-11-12T08:23:46Z moon-child: it's also nice for bootstrapping as it's written in c
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2020-11-12T08:23:50Z phoe: yes
2020-11-12T08:24:11Z phoe: and it has a few fun features that are missing from other implementations, such as a very nice ROOM and variable-precision floats
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2020-11-12T08:25:34Z moon-child: kreyren: they don't like my 2048-bit rsa key ;<
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2020-11-12T08:25:55Z kreyren: moon-child, O.o it didn't mind mine
2020-11-12T08:26:10Z kreyren: i have 4096-bit though
2020-11-12T08:26:37Z kreyren: there is a https://git.dotya.ml/community/dotya in case there is a bug btw
2020-11-12T08:27:31Z moon-child: right; it wants me to have a longer key
2020-11-12T08:28:26Z moon-child: anyway added a mirror at https://git.dotya.ml/Moonchild/fancy-build.  Now time for sleep; ttyl!
2020-11-12T08:28:31Z kreyren: i see O.o can you make the mentioned bug? i grab maintainer to take a look at it
2020-11-12T08:28:32Z kreyren: oke!
2020-11-12T08:28:36Z kreyren: gn ^-^
2020-11-12T08:29:02Z moon-child: I don't think it's a bug, just good taste
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2020-11-12T08:29:46Z kreyren: moon-child, o.o i would think it to be actionable for those who prefer shorter keys though but then i am a guy that hardens everything including his dog~
2020-11-12T08:30:16Z easye pities the dog.
2020-11-12T08:30:34Z kreyren: easye, why pity the dog wearing bullet-proof vest!
2020-11-12T08:30:47Z kreyren: well "bullet-resistant" at that..
2020-11-12T08:30:58Z easye: Ah, *that* kind of harden.
2020-11-12T08:31:01Z kreyren: and probably not even that bcs i suck with kevlar and i needed to make it comfy so that he woudn't overheat
2020-11-12T08:31:26Z kreyren: easye, ye basically like a turtle
2020-11-12T08:31:30Z kreyren: which i also have
2020-11-12T08:31:30Z easye feels even more sympathy for the dog in question.
2020-11-12T08:31:31Z kreyren: ^-^
2020-11-12T08:31:34Z kreyren: aaaaaaa
2020-11-12T08:31:56Z kreyren: you shoudn't he's little terrorist requiring constant attention and spoiled to the point of unbelieve!
2020-11-12T08:32:01Z easye goes back to arming bears.
2020-11-12T08:32:06Z kreyren: lol
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2020-11-12T12:46:39Z jmercouris: any way to simplify this? (if (> sum 0) sum 1)
2020-11-12T12:46:54Z jmercouris: maybe max or something?
2020-11-12T12:47:05Z jmercouris: would that be stylistically good though?
2020-11-12T12:47:32Z phoe: (max sum 1)
2020-11-12T12:47:36Z phoe: if sum is an integer, that is
2020-11-12T12:47:45Z jmercouris: it is, but do you really think that's a good idea?
2020-11-12T12:48:02Z jmercouris: I guess if phoe says it, probably
2020-11-12T12:48:11Z phoe: MAX is readable enough to me, unless you need to make the comparison explicit for whatever reason
2020-11-12T12:48:20Z phoe: but maybe #lisp has other ideas for that
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2020-11-12T12:50:31Z flip214: well, if SUM is 0.5, (MAX SUM 1) gives 1, while the IF returns 0.5
2020-11-12T12:50:50Z flip214: no idea whether floats are in the definition set
2020-11-12T12:50:51Z phoe: that's why I said, if SUM is an integer
2020-11-12T12:51:03Z flip214: ah, sorry
2020-11-12T12:51:17Z phoe: this doesn't hold for floats in the (0.0, 1.0) range
2020-11-12T12:51:33Z phoe: but then again, neither does the original
2020-11-12T12:51:39Z flip214: brain cells divided up into too many things at the same time
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2020-11-12T12:53:31Z cl-arthur: (> sum 0) -> (plusp sum). agree with MAX idea if sum is int.
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2020-11-12T13:03:55Z shka_: hi all
2020-11-12T13:03:58Z shka_: (s-sql:sql-compile '(:select '* :from 'foo))
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2020-11-12T13:04:08Z shka_: this now compiles to
2020-11-12T13:04:23Z shka_: select "*" from "foo"
2020-11-12T13:04:25Z shka_: i
2020-11-12T13:04:35Z shka_: i think that this used to be different
2020-11-12T13:04:38Z shka_: am i wrong?
2020-11-12T13:06:05Z phoe: do you want to quote the * ?
2020-11-12T13:06:28Z phoe: oh, this does not seem to matter
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2020-11-12T13:07:05Z phoe: on my machine, CL-USER> (s-sql:sql-compile '(:select '* :from foo)) ;=> "(SELECT * FROM foo)"
2020-11-12T13:07:06Z mfiano: it does not quote the arguments
2020-11-12T13:07:21Z phoe: same if I don't quote *
2020-11-12T13:08:27Z shka_: yeah
2020-11-12T13:08:42Z shka_: something i thought so
2020-11-12T13:08:48Z shka_: something stupid on my side
2020-11-12T13:08:50Z shka_: update time
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2020-11-13T01:59:44Z sjl: My brain is not working tonight.  Is there a nicer builtin way to do this?
2020-11-13T01:59:46Z sjl: (defun mapcons (function sequence)
2020-11-13T01:59:48Z sjl:   (map 'list (lambda (el) (cons (funcall function el) el)) sequence))
2020-11-13T02:01:12Z sjl: i.e. given a function and a sequence, return a list of conses of ((function element) . element)
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2020-11-13T02:07:40Z _death: that looks fine
2020-11-13T02:11:10Z edgar-rft: I think for elements of ((function element) . element) the code should read (cons `(,function ,el) el)
2020-11-13T02:15:41Z Xach: sjl: fsvo "nicer", (mapcar 'cons (mapcar function list) list)
2020-11-13T02:16:46Z sjl: Hm, yeah, that's slightly sorter at the expense of two traversals
2020-11-13T02:16:50Z Xach: aye
2020-11-13T02:16:50Z sjl: *shorter
2020-11-13T02:17:35Z Xach: also, not sequence-oriented
2020-11-13T02:19:04Z sjl: true.  in my case list-only is fine, but if I'm going to make a util for it I may as well make it work on sequences too I guess
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2020-11-13T02:20:36Z Xach: another option, (defun funcons (fun) (lambda (object) (cons (funcall fun object) object))), then (mapcar (funcons function) list), but who knows
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2020-11-13T04:12:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-13T06:36:54Z la-jesystani: could someone explain hash consing to me? im not following how it works
2020-11-13T06:39:09Z White_Flame: put everything through a value-based index first, so you get EQ instances for equal values
2020-11-13T06:40:12Z White_Flame: simplest example is a string interning table
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2020-11-13T06:47:30Z beach: la-jesystani: It works only for purely functional languages.  It would be a violation of Common Lisp semantics to use hashed consing.
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2020-11-13T06:48:57Z la-jesystani: im writing in functional so thats fine, im stuck at the logistics of creating the hashing function i think, i dont see how you dont just end up either recreating the tree structure as a key, or having overlaps between different structures
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2020-11-13T06:50:02Z beach: Maybe nested hash tables?
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2020-11-13T06:51:19Z ggole: You only have to hash/test-for-equality the first level of structure because the arguments to a hash-consed thing are hash-consed things, and thus if they are equal they are eq
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2020-11-13T06:53:20Z ggole: Not quite sure what you mean by overlaps
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2020-11-13T07:45:45Z matzy_: i'm really confused on like the very basics of packaging
2020-11-13T07:47:53Z matzy_: like i have a file with just: (defpackage:mygame (:use :cl)) (in-package :mygame) (defun some-game-function ...) (some-game-function)
2020-11-13T07:48:28Z matzy_: whoops mistake (defpackage mygame (:use :cl))
2020-11-13T07:49:40Z matzy_: and when i compile it tells me "undefined function: COMMON-LISP-USER::GAME"
2020-11-13T07:49:57Z matzy_: sorry COMMON-LISP-USER::MYGAME
2020-11-13T07:51:02Z matzy_: why is it trying to call (some-game-function) from the CL-USER package when I have a (in-package :mygame) declaration above
2020-11-13T07:51:54Z matzy_: i should need to preface my defuns for the mygame package with it's name, right?
2020-11-13T07:52:05Z matzy_: *shouldn't (god I can type today)
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2020-11-13T08:04:02Z flip214: matzy_: perhaps you used a name that is already used by the package COMMON-LISP? Then you'd :USE the same symbol.
2020-11-13T08:04:39Z matzy_: i was kinda wondering if maybe i was playing around with something and gave it the same name
2020-11-13T08:05:00Z matzy_: it's non in my system-index in quicklisp/local-projects though
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2020-11-13T08:05:57Z matzy_: oh wait that's probably the issue - do i need to manually update that file with the .asd symlinks i put in that folder?
2020-11-13T08:10:14Z flip214: matzy_: sorry, I believe you're conflating a few issues. only one at a time, please ;)
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2020-11-13T08:16:07Z beach: matzy_: It looks like you are using the name of your package as a function.
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2020-11-13T08:16:28Z beach: matzy_: Otherwise it would not complain about that name being undefined as a function.
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2020-11-13T08:36:08Z matzy_: ah maybe it was something that dumb
2020-11-13T08:36:09Z matzy_:  
2020-11-13T08:36:12Z matzy_: let me see
2020-11-13T08:36:53Z matzy_: i think i may need to edit the system-index.txt in quicklisp/local-projects though, i think that ultimately may be my issue
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2020-11-13T08:37:33Z matzy_: wait dammit it's already in there
2020-11-13T08:38:34Z matzy_: do i need to ql:quickload the package before i can call functions from it in sbcl?
2020-11-13T08:39:20Z beach: You don't quickload packages.  You quickload systems.
2020-11-13T08:40:10Z matzy_: ah yeah that's right, sorry i always get them mixed up
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2020-11-13T08:41:57Z beach: And yes, you need to load the system, with quickload or ASDF before you can use the functions in it.
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2020-11-13T08:43:59Z matzy_: the weird thing is i'm watching a video and this guy has a sly repl open, made a new project with cl-quickproject, then wrote a function and called it without switching the package or loading the system
2020-11-13T08:45:04Z matzy_: it's basically from here on for the next 40 seconds - https://youtu.be/DY3vI6VDOEY?list=PLCpux10P7KDKPb4eI5b_qSnQaY1ePGKGK&t=144
2020-11-13T08:45:32Z matzy_: you can see he never loads the system or changes the package from CL-USER in the repl
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2020-11-13T08:46:23Z matzy_: granted i didnt make my project in ~/quicklisp/local-projects, i made it elsewhere and symlinked to the .asd file in there
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2020-11-13T08:46:34Z matzy_: so maybe that's the issue?
2020-11-13T08:47:06Z edgar-rft: sorry but your youtube link doesn't work because youtubes interrupts with "would you like to register?" and then plays the video from the beginning
2020-11-13T08:48:28Z matzy_: wow how stupid
2020-11-13T08:49:01Z matzy_: nvm then lol
2020-11-13T08:49:56Z matzy_: it just doesnt make sense wy he could call a function from CL-USER when the function is in a file with (in-package ..) at the top
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2020-11-13T08:50:08Z matzy_: without prefixing it
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2020-11-13T08:50:36Z edgar-rft: maybe some use-package magic
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2020-11-13T08:51:24Z matzy_: so do you need to have your actual project folders in ~/quicklist/local-projects/ or can you have them elsewhere and symlink to the .asd file from in there?
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2020-11-13T08:54:25Z Gnuxie[m]: matzy_: he doesn't need to because he isn't entering them into the REPL, he's evaluating in the file and so in that package (Emacs tells you the package for the file in the bar at the bottom)
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2020-11-13T08:57:50Z matzy_: Gnuxie[m]: oh wow i'm an idiot.  i thought he was compiling
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2020-11-13T09:30:47Z kreyren: How do you define variables on uiop? i just got soo confused by it..
2020-11-13T09:30:56Z kreyren: ah nwm figured it out
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2020-11-13T09:31:45Z kreyren: nope i dunno
2020-11-13T09:31:46Z kreyren: x.x
2020-11-13T09:32:02Z kreyren: i though that (uiop:setq) is a thing?
2020-11-13T09:33:11Z beach: What?
2020-11-13T09:33:17Z beach: SETQ is a Common Lisp symbol.
2020-11-13T09:33:33Z beach: And what do you mean by "define variables on UIOP"?
2020-11-13T09:33:36Z kreyren: so i don't need uiop for that?
2020-11-13T09:33:51Z kreyren wants to define it in implementation-independent way
2020-11-13T09:34:15Z beach: What do you mean by "define variables on UIOP"?
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2020-11-13T09:35:05Z kreyren: beach, common-lisp code that defines variable (ideally defvar) in a way that can be ran by clisp, sbcl, ecl, etc..
2020-11-13T09:35:34Z beach: (defvar *name*) or (defparameter *name*)
2020-11-13T09:35:39Z beach: Has nothing to do with UIOP.
2020-11-13T09:36:03Z beach: So what does it mean to "define variables on UIOP"?
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2020-11-13T09:36:22Z beach: clhs defparameter
2020-11-13T09:36:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
2020-11-13T09:37:07Z kreyren is even more confused
2020-11-13T09:37:18Z kreyren: so does defvar works everyone on common-lisp implementations?
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2020-11-13T09:37:44Z beach: Yes, that's why it is in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.  See the link.
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2020-11-13T09:41:05Z kreyren: makes sense, thanku <3
2020-11-13T09:41:22Z beach: Anytime.
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2020-11-13T10:33:34Z kreyren just realized that uiop already implements 'die' after he spent 5 min implementing it 
2020-11-13T10:33:36Z kreyren: x.x
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2020-11-13T10:41:45Z beach: What does it do?
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2020-11-13T11:01:30Z phoe: kills the Common Lisp process with a given exit code after printing a message
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2020-11-13T11:05:57Z kreyren: yep
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2020-11-13T13:16:39Z ldb: good evening
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2020-11-13T13:39:03Z beach: Hello ldb.
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2020-11-13T14:54:09Z flip214: Is there a way to find functions that are not called, ie. could be removed from the sources?
2020-11-13T14:54:29Z flip214: Ignoring indirect calls via INTERN, FIND-SYMBOL, etc. - just direct calls.
2020-11-13T14:54:36Z jackdaniel: shake shake that tree :)
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2020-11-13T14:54:41Z mfiano: Yes, the deterministic profiler on SBCL will list every one of them in the report
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2020-11-13T14:55:07Z eta: what's the SBCL function to start a REPL?
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2020-11-13T14:59:37Z flip214: mfiano: that assumes that there are test cases
2020-11-13T14:59:48Z mfiano: Test cases?
2020-11-13T14:59:52Z Xach: eta: it isn't public
2020-11-13T15:00:02Z Xach: eta: it's sb-impl::toplevel-repl
2020-11-13T15:00:09Z eta: Xach, cheers
2020-11-13T15:00:35Z Xach: eta: fwiw, i couldn't remember it, but i knew it was reachable through the default init function in save-lisp-and-die. M-. M-. M-. and bob is your uncle.
2020-11-13T15:00:50Z eta: Xach, what's M-. bound to for you?
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2020-11-13T15:00:58Z jackdaniel: I usually do (apropos 'repl)
2020-11-13T15:01:04Z Xach: eta: slime-edit-definition
2020-11-13T15:01:06Z jackdaniel: swank also has a simple-repl
2020-11-13T15:01:27Z eta: ah right
2020-11-13T15:02:57Z Xach: eta: are you associated with theta.eu.org?
2020-11-13T15:03:11Z eta: Xach, well that's my website :p
2020-11-13T15:03:33Z Xach: eta: do you know why i might get http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-11-12/failure-report/osmpbf.html#osmpbf for a failure log?
2020-11-13T15:04:03Z Xach: eta: what is the best way to report bugs?
2020-11-13T15:04:24Z eta: Xach, send mail to eta@theta.eu.org I suppose :)
2020-11-13T15:04:41Z eta: looks like the protobuf library might have switched things around again?
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2020-11-13T16:25:28Z kreyren_: kreyren@leonid:~/Repositories/s7i$ docker build --file docker/debian.Dockerfile --tag kreyren . |& ix
2020-11-13T16:25:28Z kreyren_: http://ix.io/2E1G
2020-11-13T16:25:31Z kreyren_: whaddya doing wrong!
2020-11-13T16:25:31Z kreyren_: x.x
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2020-11-13T16:32:04Z kreyren_: smells like quicklisp bug though
2020-11-13T16:34:45Z kreyren_: works on clisp
2020-11-13T16:34:50Z kreyren_: calling quicklisp bug!
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2020-11-13T16:37:48Z phoe: einval?
2020-11-13T16:37:51Z phoe: what is the backtrace?
2020-11-13T16:38:58Z kreyren_ filed https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-bootstrap/issues/22
2020-11-13T16:39:07Z kreyren_: phoe, howddya get backtrace from ecl?
2020-11-13T16:39:39Z phoe: kreyren_: are you sure this is a quicklisp issue and not an ECL one?
2020-11-13T16:40:03Z kreyren_: phoe, smells like ECL issue that quicklisp should be adapted for assuming bootstrapping failing?
2020-11-13T16:40:17Z phoe: should be adapted? what do you mean?
2020-11-13T16:40:58Z kreyren_: from quicklook it smells like ECL update broke the bootstrapping as i was iirc using ecl 19.X.X before and it worked without issue >
2020-11-13T16:41:00Z kreyren_: *?
2020-11-13T16:41:18Z kreyren_: might be also something related to docker environment
2020-11-13T16:42:02Z kreyren_: or am i retarded and missing something obvious? x.x
2020-11-13T16:44:56Z phoe: try (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (ext:dump-c-backtrace 1000)))) (quicklisp-quickstart:install))
2020-11-13T16:45:00Z phoe: that should also give you a textual backtrace
2020-11-13T16:45:12Z phoe: #ecl might be of more help in this context
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2020-11-13T16:45:43Z jackdaniel: ecl 19.x.x? there was never such version
2020-11-13T16:46:45Z jackdaniel: quicklisp 2015?
2020-11-13T16:46:45Z kreyren_: O.o
2020-11-13T16:46:50Z kreyren_: checking
2020-11-13T16:47:03Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, that's what it downloads from the website
2020-11-13T16:47:10Z kreyren_: in terms of quicklisp 2015
2020-11-13T16:47:18Z jackdaniel: uhm
2020-11-13T16:47:23Z kreyren_: dockerfile provided for verification
2020-11-13T16:47:28Z phoe: jackdaniel: that's the quickstart version from https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp
2020-11-13T16:47:43Z phoe: quickstart itself likely never needed to be updated
2020-11-13T16:47:45Z jackdaniel: it says ecl-20.4.24
2020-11-13T16:48:13Z jackdaniel: (and that version exists, unlike 19.x.x)
2020-11-13T16:50:58Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, you are right i've confused it with 20.4.24 based on https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47
2020-11-13T16:51:03Z kreyren_: so maybe it works outside of docker ?
2020-11-13T16:51:09Z kreyren_: will check after backtrace
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2020-11-13T16:53:41Z kreyren_: works without issue outside of docker
2020-11-13T16:54:49Z kreyren_ is still waiting for docker to generate the backtrace
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2020-11-13T17:03:56Z kreyren_: backtrace: http://ix.io/2E1U
2020-11-13T17:04:01Z kreyren_: took long enough x.x
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2020-11-13T17:05:07Z phoe: the two lines that seem relevant to me:
2020-11-13T17:05:08Z phoe:   > /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libecl.so.20.4(cl_error+0xf0) [0x7fadebe796a0]
2020-11-13T17:05:09Z phoe:   > /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ecl-20.4.24/sockets.fas(+0x4080) [0x7fade9073080]
2020-11-13T17:05:35Z phoe: so something in sockets.fas - no idea what yet - called the error function, and the next lines refer to condition processing
2020-11-13T17:05:46Z phoe: that seems consistent with the fact that we have an EINVAL of some sort
2020-11-13T17:05:55Z kreyren_: o.o
2020-11-13T17:05:57Z phoe: and this EINVAL is not reproducible outside docker...
2020-11-13T17:06:10Z kreyren_: So maybe something that is escaping docker sandbox and failing as a result of that?
2020-11-13T17:06:14Z phoe: sounds much more like an ECL-on-Docker issue than a Quicklisp one, at least from a brief glance
2020-11-13T17:06:18Z kreyren_: but then it works on clisp
2020-11-13T17:06:44Z kreyren_: Sane to keep it there for X a c h ? or transfer to ecl?
2020-11-13T17:06:47Z phoe: I don't know if many people have tested the ECL+Docker+Quicklisp combo before
2020-11-13T17:07:17Z kreyren_: phoe, what do you suggest then
2020-11-13T17:07:21Z phoe: I think the latter might be more appropriate; jackdaniel, what do you think?
2020-11-13T17:07:42Z jackdaniel: I think that without debugging transferring anywhere won't do anything good
2020-11-13T17:07:57Z jackdaniel: that stacktrace doesn't tell me anything -- you need to start strace or gdb and dig into the issue
2020-11-13T17:07:58Z kreyren_ is leaning more to let X a c h to check it in case it's something related to quicklisp before he goes to ECL
2020-11-13T17:08:16Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, provide commands and i will run em!
2020-11-13T17:08:16Z jackdaniel: it is most likely related to docker (and/or its configuration)
2020-11-13T17:08:18Z phoe: I see nothing strictly related to Quicklisp there
2020-11-13T17:08:31Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, may be docker configuration
2020-11-13T17:08:31Z jackdaniel: I'm not a pilot and you are not an airplane
2020-11-13T17:08:43Z Josh_2: you don't know that jackdaniel ;)
2020-11-13T17:08:50Z kreyren_: i can fly though
2020-11-13T17:08:57Z kreyren_: just once depending on the height and airspeed though
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2020-11-13T17:09:13Z phoe: something attempts to create a socket, the operating system says EINVAL, that's the end of the story
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2020-11-13T17:10:02Z kreyren_: cc Xach ^ in case you want to check our debugging of https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-bootstrap/issues/22 ^-^
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2020-11-13T17:10:52Z kreyren_ is running strace for jackdaniel~
2020-11-13T17:11:07Z jackdaniel: not for me, but for yourself, good luck with debugging - I'm getting back to my bugs.
2020-11-13T17:11:21Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, i am too incompetent to debug lisp backend x.x
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2020-11-13T17:11:59Z kreyren_: well i know that it's written in C and that it's somehow parsing the file contents >.>
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2020-11-13T17:16:25Z kreyren_ likes to believe that it's some cool regex, bcs that's what he was trying to implement in rlisp before he realized how broken that project is on 2018 rustlang while expecting wizardly that he doesn't understand~
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2020-11-13T17:19:40Z kreyren_: http://ix.io/2E1Z
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2020-11-13T17:20:38Z kreyren_: i guess it needs `/etc/protocols` ?
2020-11-13T17:21:01Z phoe: socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, 0xffffffff /* IPPROTO_??? */) = -1 EINVAL (Invalid argument)
2020-11-13T17:21:04Z kreyren_: seems unrelated though
2020-11-13T17:21:06Z kreyren_: eh? o.o
2020-11-13T17:21:15Z phoe: this is likely where the EINVAL comes from
2020-11-13T17:21:26Z kreyren_: elaborate?
2020-11-13T17:24:22Z kreyren_: btw. in case you want colors https://rust-lang.github.io/rust-log-analyzer/log-viewer/#https://cors-anywhere.herokuapp.com/ix.io/2E1Z
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2020-11-13T17:26:38Z h4ck3r9696: What is the best common lisp library for fast linear algebra?
2020-11-13T17:29:03Z phoe: h4ck3r9696: magicl perhaps
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2020-11-13T17:35:56Z phoe: kreyren_: this syscall seems kinda off to me; it tries to call socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, 0xffffffff) - and I have no idea where the 0xffffffff came from
2020-11-13T17:36:45Z kreyren_: o.o
2020-11-13T17:36:48Z kreyren_: whaddya recommend then
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2020-11-13T17:39:06Z Xach: eta: what should i do?
2020-11-13T17:39:40Z eta: Xach, about what, sorry?
2020-11-13T17:39:45Z eta: osmpbf?
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2020-11-13T17:41:14Z phoe: kreyren_: a bit of debugging tells me that the error is signaled at https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/-/blob/develop/contrib/sockets/sockets.lisp#L361
2020-11-13T17:42:02Z phoe: seems that in L355 the function FF-SOCKET is called to create the socket, and its third argument is proto-num, quite possibly computed by get-protocol-by-name in L348
2020-11-13T17:42:43Z phoe: and that function is allowed to return -1, so 0xffffffff, if the system does not recognize the protocol via getprotobyname - see https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/-/blob/develop/contrib/sockets/sockets.lisp#L582
2020-11-13T17:43:16Z Xach: eta: yes, the build failure in it
2020-11-13T17:43:28Z kreyren_: 0xffffffff would be 255 not -1 no?
2020-11-13T17:43:39Z phoe: 255 is 0xff
2020-11-13T17:43:46Z kreyren_: o.o
2020-11-13T17:43:48Z eta: Xach, I don't mind if you just exclude the system from the ql distribution you're currently building
2020-11-13T17:43:56Z eta: and I'll get around to taking a look at why it's failed sometime later?
2020-11-13T17:43:58Z phoe: hmmmmm!
2020-11-13T17:44:07Z phoe: kreyren_: try `apt install netbase` in your docker image
2020-11-13T17:44:33Z jackdaniel: you don't have libnss available in your docker image
2020-11-13T17:44:37Z phoe: maybe your idea about the missing /etc/protocols is correct; the netbase package will install this file
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2020-11-13T17:44:48Z kreyren_: phoe, running
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2020-11-13T17:45:37Z phoe: jackdaniel: is libnss required for plain TCP without any encryption going on?
2020-11-13T17:45:47Z ljavorsk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-11-13T17:45:58Z jackdaniel: is libnss for encryption? not for a nameserver?
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2020-11-13T17:46:24Z phoe: that would be DNS, I think... let me check
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2020-11-13T17:47:06Z phoe: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Projects/NSS/Overview seems related to encryption, not nameservers
2020-11-13T17:47:35Z jackdaniel: uhm
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2020-11-13T17:49:08Z phoe: it seems to me that ECL can return -1 from GET-PROTOCOL-BY-NAME which is then propagated and in turn confuses the socket() syscall
2020-11-13T17:49:23Z scymtym: this nss: https://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Name-Service-Switch.html
2020-11-13T17:49:29Z phoe: that happens when getprotobyname() returns zero
2020-11-13T17:49:39Z phoe: scymtym: TIL
2020-11-13T17:49:51Z phoe re-reads
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2020-11-13T17:56:26Z kreyren_: phoe, works now! thanku <3
2020-11-13T17:56:44Z phoe: awesome
2020-11-13T17:56:54Z Xach: eta: ok!
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2020-11-13T17:58:54Z phoe: jackdaniel: would you accept a PR that modifies https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/-/blob/develop/contrib/sockets/sockets.lisp#L582 to cerror if -1 is returned and a new optional errorp argument is set to true? then SHARED-INITIALIZE on SOCKETs would call G-P-B-N with errorp true
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2020-11-13T17:59:16Z phoe: the issue is that /etc/protocols was missing on the machine, and therefore getprotobyname returned 0
2020-11-13T17:59:36Z meowphius: why would /etc/protocols be missing in the docker image?
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2020-11-13T17:59:55Z phoe: meowphius: seemingly you need `apt install netbase` to have it
2020-11-13T17:59:55Z kreyren_: meowphius, debian:testing comes with bare minimum
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2020-11-13T18:01:39Z jackdaniel: phoe: it should return nil when there is nothing
2020-11-13T18:01:49Z jackdaniel: look at the shared-initialize function
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2020-11-13T18:02:00Z jackdaniel: um, no, it should signal error
2020-11-13T18:02:04Z jackdaniel: snvm last remark
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2020-11-13T18:02:37Z phoe: OK - I'll prepare the patch and submit it in a moment
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2020-11-13T18:02:52Z jackdaniel: what cerror would be good for?
2020-11-13T18:02:58Z jackdaniel: can the program continue after that?
2020-11-13T18:03:12Z phoe: cerror is good only for the "trust me, 0xffffffff is the value I want" scenario
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2020-11-13T18:03:18Z phoe: and I can't think of any
2020-11-13T18:03:47Z meowphius: why do you think the japanese chose prolog for the fifth generation machine while the us picked lisp? https://www.amazon.com/Collaboration-Trial-Microelectronics-Technology-Corporation/dp/0875843646
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2020-11-13T18:04:28Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2020-11-13T18:05:09Z kreyren_: phoe, Reference the patch being merged i will reference it in quicklisp issue tracker and close the issue
2020-11-13T18:05:26Z phoe: kreyren_: OK
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2020-11-13T18:07:30Z easye: h4ck3r9696: Definitely check out magicl, as it is used by Rigetti's QIS stack.  It boils down to getting Fortran routines in dlls you can access.  Tricky in some situations.  I have some patches for getting it to work on FreeBSD if anyone needs them.
2020-11-13T18:07:58Z easye: (I'll get the magicl stuff upstream when it works in armedbear like I want it, a longer term project)
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2020-11-13T18:11:49Z meowphius: easye: I love the fact that you can use graalvm to compile abcl to exe. right?
2020-11-13T18:11:53Z easye: meowphius: RE: Japanese MIT industrial investment:  I think the Prolog stuff wa implemented in Lisp, or at least prototyped.  See Kyoto Lisp.
2020-11-13T18:13:16Z meowphius: easye: it is easy to implement prolog in lisp. That's why I am so confused that japan invested all that money into prolog for their fifth-generation computer and it was prolog-based.
2020-11-13T18:13:18Z easye: I think the Japanese planned on manufacturing what would be termed IoT devices that ran Prolog on the generalized architecture.  But they hosted the build tools in other languages.
2020-11-13T18:13:43Z easye: Many fascinating books about the Japan/US "race" in the 1980s.
2020-11-13T18:14:02Z meowphius: easye: I think the japanese wanted to use prolog but the language fractured too quickly with modifications.
2020-11-13T18:14:56Z easye: I think that got pretty far with the Prolog from what I can gather.  I don't read Japanese, so I have only seen translations.
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2020-11-13T18:18:57Z shka_: meowphius: they were going for hardware optimized, distributed prolog implementation
2020-11-13T18:19:08Z shka_: for the record, i think they were on something
2020-11-13T18:19:21Z easye: Since the "Fifth Generation war" was "fought" by state funding in both Japan and the US, I think the problem wasn't Prolog per se, but that it was much more profitible to build something like a Walkman.
2020-11-13T18:19:49Z shka_: there is plenty of knowledge based systems in the world, and they could benefit from optimized knowledge representation
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2020-11-13T18:22:04Z easye: shka_: "on something" or "onto something"?  Or both?
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2020-11-13T18:29:32Z kreyren_: `(setq (format "%1$-%2$" s7i "api") "")` -> How can i define variable name using format?
2020-11-13T18:29:39Z kreyren_: so that it contains value of variable s7i
2020-11-13T18:30:40Z kreyren_ wants to program his functions to have the ability to change prefix on demand~
2020-11-13T18:30:51Z easye: meowphius: I have never really gotten the time to get Graal to make an abcl.exe   It certainly should be possible
2020-11-13T18:31:05Z phoe: kreyren_: what do you mean, define variable name using format?
2020-11-13T18:31:25Z phoe: FORMAT is not for defining variables, you have LET and DEFVAR and DEFPARAMETER for that
2020-11-13T18:31:26Z Josh_2: Wouldn't it better to just store the 'functions' as λs?
2020-11-13T18:31:36Z Josh_2: Then you don't have to define them at the top level
2020-11-13T18:31:37Z kreyren_: phoe, e.g. s7i expands to `fy` so i expect variable definition for fy-api to contain ""
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2020-11-13T18:32:10Z easye: Alan Ruttenberg and Eric Timmons have been thinking about how to use ABCL with Docker's suspend/resume which is more interesting in the typical ways ABCL is used.
2020-11-13T18:32:21Z kreyren_: Josh_2, what if there is 3rd party API that defines function tha tstarts with `λs` or alike?
2020-11-13T18:32:23Z phoe: kreyren_: I don't understand yet; what is s7i? what is fy? what is fy-api?
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2020-11-13T18:32:40Z kreyren_: phoe, s7i is random string that i am defining into a variable storing `fy`
2020-11-13T18:32:57Z phoe: what do you mean, defining into a variable? a lexical variable? a global variable?
2020-11-13T18:33:00Z kreyren_: so i expect definition using s7i variable to define variable if that makes sense
2020-11-13T18:33:10Z phoe: no, it doesn't make sense to me yet
2020-11-13T18:33:12Z kreyren_: kreyren@leonid:~/Repositories/s7i$ cat src/api/common-lisp/UNLEASH.cl | ix
2020-11-13T18:33:13Z kreyren_: http://ix.io/2E29
2020-11-13T18:33:17Z kreyren_: might make more sense
2020-11-13T18:33:41Z Josh_2: you could literally create a hashtable where you store the lambdas under strings, you can then easily change the associations and you can call the functions with a simple macro
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2020-11-13T18:33:53Z kreyren_: so i want to define variable fy-api using what's stored in s7i variable for the other variable name x.x
2020-11-13T18:33:54Z phoe: why would you so that though? just define your own package and do stuff there; no collisions this way
2020-11-13T18:34:12Z phoe: in this new package of yours, you will only have the symbols that you want.
2020-11-13T18:34:13Z kreyren_: phoe, so that the prefix can be changed on demand in case of a conflict.. experimenting with that atm
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2020-11-13T18:34:41Z phoe: in case of what conflicting with what
2020-11-13T18:34:56Z phoe: if you make a brand new package containing only the symbols you want it to contain then there is no possibility for conflict
2020-11-13T18:35:14Z kreyren_: e.g. if i define function fy-defun and end-user is using 3rd party API that also defines fy-defun i want the end-user to have the ability to change the prefix
2020-11-13T18:35:27Z shka_: listen to phoe, he is giving a good advice
2020-11-13T18:35:33Z phoe: the end user is going to do stuff in their own package
2020-11-13T18:35:37Z kreyren_: i know i want to experiment! x.x
2020-11-13T18:35:43Z phoe: you should also do stuff in your own package
2020-11-13T18:35:49Z kreyren_: o.o
2020-11-13T18:36:06Z shka_: kreyren_: ok, so, thing is that you miss on the concept of package
2020-11-13T18:36:12Z phoe: if the end user wants to do any serious stuff in Lisp, then they'll go (defpackage :my-package ...) (in-package :my-package)
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2020-11-13T18:36:28Z kreyren_: shka_, this is expected to be API for build system
2020-11-13T18:36:29Z phoe: and if they don't, then they'll stay in CL-USER which is a good place to be in if they want to experiment with Lisp stuff
2020-11-13T18:36:38Z kreyren_: but i want to make it flexible for compatibility
2020-11-13T18:36:54Z phoe: kreyren_: do you know how to build Lisp APIs via packages?
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2020-11-13T18:37:13Z phoe: if not, http://index-of.es/Programming/Lisp/Lisp%20Mess/Erann%20Gat%20-%20Idiots%20Guide%20To%20Lisp%20Packages.pdf is a good document describing packages and symbols - pardon the unfortunate name
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2020-11-13T18:37:28Z kreyren_: no, just experimenting atm as i want it to be deployed by custom logic independent of lisp >.>
2020-11-13T18:37:37Z kreyren_: because i want to define API in multiple programming languages
2020-11-13T18:38:24Z phoe: this already sounds way too general; what kind of API? REST? RPC? something TCP-socket-like?
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2020-11-13T18:38:26Z kreyren_: phoe, i know that it wants symbol and that i am providing string, but i don't know how to convert that in symbol without using concat that is not available x.x
2020-11-13T18:38:48Z kreyren_: phoe, API expected to be used in a build system that curretly has unsustainable abstract
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2020-11-13T18:39:01Z kreyren_: e.g. building CXX project using common lisp
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2020-11-13T18:39:09Z kreyren_: where i want to define the logic to be used on demand in makefile
2020-11-13T18:39:20Z phoe: geez, you *seriously* should learn yourself some Lisp before you start writing serious Lisp code
2020-11-13T18:39:34Z kreyren_: i know that packages are a thing! >.>
2020-11-13T18:39:45Z phoe: but you are not using that knowledge in practice
2020-11-13T18:39:53Z kreyren_: experimenting, because i don't know how to implement it in a way that i would like.. this is part of experiment
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2020-11-13T18:40:38Z phoe: the thing is that you're not going to properly implement stuff in a language you don't know how to properly use
2020-11-13T18:40:56Z phoe: it's obvious that you can (intern (format nil "~A-~A" "FOO" "BAR")) and then use that symbol somewhere
2020-11-13T18:41:06Z pve: kreyren_: Sounds like you want "intern". Experimenting is fine, but you should know that what you're trying to do is probably a fool's errand.
2020-11-13T18:41:16Z kreyren_: phoe, i will with strong abstract, research and peer-review!
2020-11-13T18:41:25Z kreyren_: and i am quite confident in general lisp x.x
2020-11-13T18:41:26Z phoe: and then do other unholy tricks like (eval `(defun ,symbol (...) ...))
2020-11-13T18:41:55Z kreyren_: agree currently insane implementation, doing this for research only
2020-11-13T18:42:26Z phoe: there's already enough research that is done in an insane manner, so I ain't gonna help you with that any further
2020-11-13T18:42:40Z kreyren_: x.x
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2020-11-13T18:50:09Z phoe: jackdaniel: patch submitted; I did not know how to run the rt-test so I tested manually in the REPL by copypasting the body of the auto-test case I've added, https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2135#2135
2020-11-13T18:51:54Z kreyren_ didn't figure out how to convert string into a symbol so he's using printf piping to ed 
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2020-11-13T18:54:59Z shka_: kreyren_: sorry, phone
2020-11-13T18:55:07Z kreyren_: o.o
2020-11-13T18:55:14Z kreyren_: np~
2020-11-13T18:55:16Z shka_: kreyren_: packages in lisp are just containers for symbols
2020-11-13T18:55:21Z shka_: that's it
2020-11-13T18:55:33Z shka_: nothing more
2020-11-13T18:55:55Z kreyren_: i don't want packages though i want to define variable which name is composed from string and variable >.>
2020-11-13T18:55:59Z shka_: they are not, in particular, model of software distribution
2020-11-13T18:56:15Z shka_: oh, i don't think you can do this
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2020-11-13T18:56:40Z kreyren_: o.o
2020-11-13T18:56:42Z phoe: you can, using enough hackery
2020-11-13T18:56:53Z phoe: but seriously why? this isn't bash, we have proper namespacing for variables
2020-11-13T18:56:58Z kreyren_ done that on emacs using concat to format >.>
2020-11-13T18:57:42Z kreyren_: phoe, mostly because i am not sure about the function naming and want to have an option to rename them on demand during the research
2020-11-13T18:58:42Z easye: kreyren_: Your FORMAT actually attempts to output to a string rather than a stream named by a symbol, so I don't think it will do what you expect.
2020-11-13T18:58:48Z phoe: sounds like big overengineering to me if you don't even know how many symbols in the API you're going to have
2020-11-13T18:59:28Z kreyren_: easye, it's not doing what i want yep >.> the setq expects symbol and i am parsing string
2020-11-13T18:59:31Z phoe: if you create a separate package, then you can turn foobar:baz into quuxbar:baz by editing two lines of code
2020-11-13T18:59:33Z kreyren_: phoe, i love overengineering!
2020-11-13T18:59:45Z kreyren_: phoe, but i can't change the baz
2020-11-13T19:00:34Z phoe: BAZ is not a prefix at this point
2020-11-13T19:00:47Z kreyren_: it's the lisp call
2020-11-13T19:00:48Z phoe: I thought you wanted to be able to change e.g. foobar-baz into quuxbar-baz
2020-11-13T19:01:03Z kreyren_: e.g. renaming defun on deffun after it's been defined X amout of times
2020-11-13T19:01:21Z phoe: renaming CL:DEFUN is a very bad idea
2020-11-13T19:01:34Z kreyren_: phoe, nope i want the suffix to change on demand so that it allows updates and backwards compatibility if needed which is what the experiment is about atm
2020-11-13T19:01:56Z kreyren_: bcs i do lots of changes and ppl get mad about these x.x
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2020-11-13T19:02:03Z phoe: hm
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2020-11-13T19:02:16Z Josh_2: How are people communicating with the API? over a network?
2020-11-13T19:02:18Z easye: Not mad per se, just shaking my head.
2020-11-13T19:02:22Z kreyren_: better solution welcomed, can't think of a better one atm
2020-11-13T19:02:30Z phoe: (incf Josh_2)
2020-11-13T19:02:35Z Josh_2: literally told you a better solution kreyren_
2020-11-13T19:02:59Z kreyren_: checking
2020-11-13T19:03:03Z shka_: kreyren_: use generic functions
2020-11-13T19:03:11Z phoe: How are people communicating with the API? over a network?
2020-11-13T19:03:43Z kreyren_: Josh_2, no the APi is deployed with the build system and called on demand e.g. (quick and dirty example)
2020-11-13T19:03:44Z kreyren_: kreyren@leonid:~/Repositories/s7i$ cat Makefile.toml | ix
2020-11-13T19:03:44Z kreyren_: http://ix.io/2E2i
2020-11-13T19:04:08Z Josh_2: I'm going to tap out of that one
2020-11-13T19:04:11Z phoe: and I assume that /usr/src/$PROJECT_NAME/src/api/common-lisp/UNLEASH.cl contains some Lisp code
2020-11-13T19:04:16Z kreyren_: shka_, what if that function is going to require change in the future though?
2020-11-13T19:04:34Z kreyren_: phoe, yes the UNLEASH.cl is what is expected to load all the functions and metadata
2020-11-13T19:05:05Z phoe: define a package named my-api-v0.1 and then your users can locally nickname it to my-api and do (my-api:foo ...)
2020-11-13T19:05:07Z kreyren_: CodeTogether: https://go.codetogether.com/#/7b42d945-b699-4e12-95db-482c7ee24779/f8OyeLmOC7xEGfZU54CxIV
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2020-11-13T19:05:38Z phoe: when they want to jump to a higher version, they can instead locally nickname my-api-v3.0 to my-api and then call the modified (my-api:foo ...)
2020-11-13T19:05:58Z kreyren_: phoe, the concern is backwards compatibility though in case the function needs change which i expect there to be a lot e.g. refactoring function that builds libraries for CXX to also build libraris for rustlang
2020-11-13T19:06:14Z phoe: kreyren_: you don't change older API functions, so you have backwards compatibility.
2020-11-13T19:06:15Z kreyren_: ah true
2020-11-13T19:06:30Z kreyren_: phoe, not changing is not an option really >.>
2020-11-13T19:06:35Z kreyren_: too restricting
2020-11-13T19:06:45Z phoe: if you want a new version of your API, you make a new package, and modify stuff there.
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2020-11-13T19:07:14Z phoe: so you have your old package named MY-API-v0.1 that you don't change, but instead you create a new package named MY-API-v0.2 where you change some stuff compared to MY-API-v0.1
2020-11-13T19:07:17Z kreyren_: i want to do the new versions in a way that doesn't break older versions though
2020-11-13T19:07:24Z phoe: uhhhh
2020-11-13T19:07:28Z kreyren_: i guess better abtract to avoid refactoring would solve that though
2020-11-13T19:07:28Z phoe: how does my approach break older versions?
2020-11-13T19:07:43Z phoe: if people depend on v0.1 then adding v0.2 does not change anything for them
2020-11-13T19:07:58Z kreyren_: phoe, it requires a new nickname from what i've understand where i want these to work without changes to the build definition ideally
2020-11-13T19:08:10Z phoe: these nicknames are on the client side
2020-11-13T19:08:14Z kreyren_: ah i see
2020-11-13T19:08:15Z phoe: not on your side
2020-11-13T19:08:49Z kreyren_: so basically allowing them to use 01::defun and 02::defun at the same time using these nicknames?
2020-11-13T19:08:55Z phoe: the user goes (defpackage #:my-project (:use #:cl) (:local-nicknames (#:my-api #:my-api-v0.1))) (in-package #:my-project) (my-api:foo)
2020-11-13T19:09:13Z phoe: without local nicknames, they can use (my-api-v0.1:foo ...) and (my-api-v0.2:foo ...)
2020-11-13T19:09:23Z phoe: with local nicknames, they can customize the package prefixes for convenience.
2020-11-13T19:09:40Z kreyren_: that might be a solution.. checking
2020-11-13T19:09:51Z phoe: and before your check with CLISP: https://gitlab.com/gnu-clisp/clisp/-/merge_requests/3
2020-11-13T19:10:08Z phoe: this is unmerged and has been for a while. CLISP badly needs a new release.
2020-11-13T19:10:20Z phoe: so package-local nicknames are not supported there.
2020-11-13T19:10:39Z kreyren_: phoe, ye FSF didn't even respond to me about clisp maintainance when i asked so i don't count on supporting clisp atm
2020-11-13T19:10:48Z kreyren_: well directly supporting assuming uiop
2020-11-13T19:11:08Z kreyren_: wait can i use this on uiop?
2020-11-13T19:11:28Z phoe: uiop is a portability library that runs on top of a given CL implementation
2020-11-13T19:11:39Z phoe: package-local nicknames need support from the implementation.
2020-11-13T19:11:54Z kreyren_: i meant can this be done implementation independent way?
2020-11-13T19:11:59Z kreyren_: excluding clisp
2020-11-13T19:12:17Z phoe: yes - use the :LOCAL-NICKNAMES option in DEFPACKAGE and you're good to go
2020-11-13T19:12:25Z kreyren_: ah oke O.o
2020-11-13T19:12:31Z phoe: this works on SBCL, CCL, ECL, ABCL, Clasp, ACL at the moment
2020-11-13T19:12:40Z kreyren_: noted
2020-11-13T19:12:42Z phoe: LispWorks 7.2 is not yet released AFAIR
2020-11-13T19:12:48Z phoe: that's when PLNs will work there
2020-11-13T19:14:41Z kreyren_: and LispWorks 7.2 has this functionality then?
2020-11-13T19:14:47Z phoe: will have
2020-11-13T19:14:53Z kreyren_: ok
2020-11-13T19:15:03Z kreyren_: is it sane for me to make checks for expected implementation versions?
2020-11-13T19:15:16Z kreyren_: or shouldi just let it fail on general failure?
2020-11-13T19:16:01Z phoe: I guess you can do that if you really care about it; or just check for the presence of :PACKAGE-LOCAL-NICKNAMES in *FEATURES*
2020-11-13T19:16:53Z kreyren_: the presence of PACKAGE-LOCAL-NICKNAMES is good idea, stubbed
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2020-11-13T19:19:42Z kreyren_: phoe, how would you handle the '(load #p"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp")' in case the system doesn't have quicklisp installed or it's in a different location assuming requirement for uiop
2020-11-13T19:20:04Z kreyren_: i was thinking env variable to allow overriding that and making compiled program to get quicklisp
2020-11-13T19:20:14Z phoe: kreyren_: assert that quicklisp is installed and that its path is known
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2020-11-13T19:20:48Z phoe: if anything, store the path to setup.lisp in an environment variable
2020-11-13T19:21:00Z phoe: this will solve the latter case
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2020-11-13T19:21:35Z phoe: in the former case, it's the same as with some sort of a missing foreign library - the person needs to install it manually
2020-11-13T19:21:41Z kreyren_: How can i assert that the quicklisp is installed without known path? or should i just exit with fatal error when quicklisp is not found in the path?
2020-11-13T19:21:50Z phoe: the latter
2020-11-13T19:21:57Z kreyren_: oke
2020-11-13T19:22:12Z phoe: if the path is set, then use it; if it is not set, assume the default ~/quicklisp/
2020-11-13T19:22:25Z kreyren_: should i expect users to install quicklisp manually or implement some vendoring method to provide it by the project in sandboxed environment?
2020-11-13T19:23:21Z kreyren_: the idea is that executing the build system should do everything for them
2020-11-13T19:23:59Z phoe: then you need a method for installing quicklisp from scratch, ideally by downloading https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp and loading it and invoking its install function
2020-11-13T19:24:00Z kreyren_: where if needed i can build LFS using common lisp
2020-11-13T19:24:28Z kreyren_: will research thanks
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2020-11-13T21:25:29Z phoe: Online Lisp Meeting #11 announced
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2020-11-14T01:56:55Z drmeister: How do folks run tests in quicklisp systems?
2020-11-14T01:57:17Z drmeister: I look for the foo-tests.asd file and look into the packages.lisp file for external symbols.
2020-11-14T01:57:30Z drmeister: I want to run the cffi tests and what I do above might be screwing me up.
2020-11-14T02:07:27Z Xach: drmeister: i try (asdf:test-system "foo") to try to test the system "foo"
2020-11-14T02:07:30Z Xach: drmeister: sometimes it works
2020-11-14T02:07:58Z drmeister: Oh - it's a sometimes thing - understood.
2020-11-14T02:08:11Z drmeister: Otherwise you go into the packages.lisp file like I did?
2020-11-14T02:08:31Z drmeister: I ask because cffi exports:     (:export #:do-tests #:run-cffi-tests #:run-all-cffi-tests)
2020-11-14T02:09:44Z drmeister: Then I have to look in the source code to see that #:run-all-cffi-tests is the most comprehensive.
2020-11-14T02:10:43Z Xach: drmeister: i would try asdf:test-system first
2020-11-14T02:11:02Z Xach: drmeister: one issue is that tests sometimes require systems that aren't loaded, and asdf:test-system won't autoload them.
2020-11-14T02:11:12Z Xach: but it might be a quickload away to remedy
2020-11-14T02:11:14Z drmeister: Actually - then I see what my real problem is - they have both (run-cffi-tests :compiled nil) and (run-cffi-tests :compiled t) - I want the latter and not the former.
2020-11-14T02:11:30Z drmeister: Ok, thank you very much.
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2020-11-14T02:20:40Z Xach: drmeister: also, if i was curious what test-system meant, i'd look at the defsystem form for the system - it will have the code that is run by test-system
2020-11-14T02:20:56Z Xach: there is no single standard meaning for test-system, it can call any code it likes
2020-11-14T02:22:36Z Xach: phoe: i have not been able to attend any meeting so far, but #11 is scheduled during a big american holiday
2020-11-14T02:23:00Z Xach: (maybe that means i can go this time??)
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2020-11-14T04:31:12Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-14T04:35:01Z shinohai: Buenas dias beach
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2020-11-14T05:27:45Z drmeister: Xach: Thank you.
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2020-11-14T05:59:26Z kreyren_: whaddya think about this mock-up of a build system? http://ix.io/2E6q
2020-11-14T06:00:23Z kreyren_: (backend not implemented, abstracting stub)
2020-11-14T06:00:42Z kreyren_: pair-programming in case you want to suggest something directly https://go.codetogether.com/#/7b42d945-b699-4e12-95db-482c7ee24779/1sGTkww6xJcia5dIkg95Ft
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2020-11-14T06:09:41Z moon-child: kreyren_: build dir shouldn't be hardcoded
2020-11-14T06:10:10Z moon-child: kreyren_: I don't think repository and bugs-to make sense in defmetadata.  If you have a copy of the source code, you don't need to know how to get it, and a contact can go in the description
2020-11-14T06:10:13Z moon-child: what is vendor dir?
2020-11-14T06:10:17Z kreyren_: moon-child, why not? I prefer to have full path of build dir and specify different location e.g. for bigger projects
2020-11-14T06:10:24Z kreyren_: vendor dir is for 3rd party sources
2020-11-14T06:11:27Z kreyren_: moon-child, the idea of metadata is to have few hardcodded options and the rest to be defined by devs based on requirements
2020-11-14T06:12:04Z moon-child: out-of-tree builds should be possible.  Imo it's better when the build tool invocation decides the build dir
2020-11-14T06:12:38Z kreyren_: like specifying an argument?
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2020-11-14T06:12:40Z kreyren_: in cli?
2020-11-14T06:12:43Z moon-child: yes
2020-11-14T06:13:04Z kreyren_: good idea, stubbed
2020-11-14T06:13:26Z kreyren_: also probably a good thing for others like LIBDIR to be cross-friendly
2020-11-14T06:13:33Z kreyren_: or for non-standard systems i guess O.o
2020-11-14T06:13:41Z moon-child: if only some keys of metadata have a standard form, then the others are only going to exist in some projects, and are going to take a different form in different projects.  So they aren't machine-consumable anyway.  With your design, some members are machine-consumable and some aren't, which is imo not great ui
2020-11-14T06:14:02Z moon-child: so I think it would be better to have a limited set of keys, all of which have standardised purpose and form
2020-11-14T06:16:00Z kreyren_: in terms of the metadata i want to hardcode name, description, version and license atm possibly programming language to source related function in step scope
2020-11-14T06:16:13Z moon-child: libdir should be grabbed from the system.  cc knows what it's doing, even as a cross-compiler.  But do let the user append dirs to the searchpath, like the -L flag to ld
2020-11-14T06:16:37Z kreyren_: moon-child, the concern is non-standard systems like mine that might return invalid libdir from CC
2020-11-14T06:16:49Z moon-child: then those systems are broken
2020-11-14T06:17:09Z moon-child: programming language--projects use many programming languages variably, also 'programming language' is not very well defined (how do you deal with the many incompatible scheme dialects, for instance?)
2020-11-14T06:17:38Z kreyren_: not broken, it's running distros/kernels in a escapable sandbox so CC is expected to point to different location then the CC finds in it's sandbox
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2020-11-14T06:18:43Z kreyren_: so i think sane to allow optional arguments to specify these?
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2020-11-14T06:19:09Z moon-child: afaik you can also ask the dynamic linker where it'll look
2020-11-14T06:19:48Z kreyren_: true
2020-11-14T06:21:11Z kreyren_: moon-child, what about in terms of the proposed mockup? I want to ideally make it to work on things like cargo-make as well
2020-11-14T06:21:38Z kreyren_: So that it has it's own makefile-like file with option to use C-style and Rust-style makefiles
2020-11-14T06:22:21Z moon-child: I mean, the specific minutiae of syntax are not super important.  Especially in something like cl where you can easily write your own abstractions
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2020-11-14T06:22:40Z moon-child: if you wanna integrate with other build systems, just make sure your primitives are powerful enough to represent their abstractions
2020-11-14T06:23:59Z kreyren_: true
2020-11-14T06:24:28Z kreyren_: thanks for brainstorm ^-^
2020-11-14T06:25:55Z moon-child: :)
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2020-11-14T06:36:06Z beach: kreyren_: Do you take remarks related to coding conventions?
2020-11-14T06:36:48Z kreyren_: beach, anything relevant is appreciated
2020-11-14T06:36:51Z beach: clhs 2.4.4.2
2020-11-14T06:36:51Z specbot: Notes about Style for Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddb.htm
2020-11-14T06:37:04Z beach: Your number of semicolons is off.
2020-11-14T06:37:24Z kreyren_: checking
2020-11-14T06:37:27Z beach: And your indentation is strange.
2020-11-14T06:38:06Z kreyren_: indentation is using tabs over spaces and there is one `)` in config that's out of place bcs of abstracting comment >.>
2020-11-14T06:38:24Z beach: I saw the `)', yes.
2020-11-14T06:38:32Z beach: That's why I didn't remark on that one.
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2020-11-14T06:39:35Z beach: It is usually a bad idea to use tabs for indentation.
2020-11-14T06:39:43Z kreyren_: why?
2020-11-14T06:39:57Z beach: Because it shows up wrong in many places like web sites.
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2020-11-14T06:40:32Z beach: And the use of tabs doesn't explain why some lines are indented differently from others, even though they look like they should be the same, to me at least.
2020-11-14T06:40:34Z easye: M-x untabify
2020-11-14T06:41:16Z beach: easye: Right, but kreyren_ would not do that if it is thought that tabs are good.
2020-11-14T06:41:26Z kreyren_: beach, i consider websites not being optimized for tabs their issue e.g. git.dotya.ml (gitea instance that i am using) is optimized for tabs
2020-11-14T06:41:40Z easye: Just pointing out how easy it potentially could be to convert.
2020-11-14T06:41:53Z kreyren_: ah true there are double spaces, fixing
2020-11-14T06:43:25Z kreyren_: replaced, thanks i think editor changed it without me noticing
2020-11-14T06:44:00Z beach: kreyren_: So if you maintain the tabs, you need to be careful about the ways in which you expose your code to others.  Because if you use a place that doesn't handle them correctly, the people in your audience will not understand your code correctly.
2020-11-14T06:45:11Z kreyren_: beach, fair point, i have workflow adapted for these e.g. using ix http://ix.io/2E6A
2020-11-14T06:45:56Z kreyren_: reading through the semicolons atm
2020-11-14T06:46:08Z beach: Now your indentation is WAY off.  And the number of semicolons is still wrong.
2020-11-14T06:46:36Z beach: The norm is that body code is indented by two spaces.
2020-11-14T06:46:42Z kreyren_: eh? o.o looks good to me in terms of indent
2020-11-14T06:46:56Z kreyren_: ah i see
2020-11-14T06:47:04Z beach: You have 8.
2020-11-14T06:47:26Z beach: You must not have used Lisp mode to indent your code.
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2020-11-14T06:47:33Z moon-child: kreyren_: fwiw, I use tabs for literally every other language, but in lisp I use spaces
2020-11-14T06:48:01Z beach: kreyren_: Indenting your code manually is bound to fail fairly often.
2020-11-14T06:48:10Z moon-child: (well, I also use spaces for ml-alikes, but I don't use them very much)
2020-11-14T06:48:27Z kreyren_: beach, the idea of using ix is that the pastes are expected to be grabbed through `curl` with user-preferred intent.. I try to find a way to show the two-space tab through paste x.x
2020-11-14T06:48:50Z moon-child: my terminal also displays tabs as 8 spaces wide...
2020-11-14T06:49:00Z beach: kreyren_: So what did you do to indent the body code?
2020-11-14T06:49:09Z beach: kreyren_: You must have used something other than Lisp mode.
2020-11-14T06:49:45Z kreyren_: beach, i am adapting vscodium for it atm bcs of pair-programming, but i am using tabs in emacs as well tbh O.o
2020-11-14T06:50:03Z kreyren_: spaces kinda annoy me because it takes additional key strokes to navigate through them
2020-11-14T06:50:18Z beach: So not Lisp mode?
2020-11-14T06:50:34Z moon-child: character-wise navigation is always slow, whether you use spaces or tabs
2020-11-14T06:50:41Z kreyren_: This is using Common Lisp extension for vscode
2020-11-14T06:50:53Z beach: It looks like it is screwing up badly.
2020-11-14T06:50:58Z beach: I suggest you use something else.
2020-11-14T06:51:15Z kreyren_: which gives me paraedit through paraedit extension that i am messing with atm >.>
2020-11-14T06:51:45Z beach: If your tool is not indenting the code correctly, you are going to make many mistakes.
2020-11-14T06:52:23Z kreyren_: beach, it indents it correctly if you have indent size set though, see https://i.imgur.com/RuuztJz.png
2020-11-14T06:53:22Z beach: kreyren_: So my point is that you then should not expose your code like you did the first time, since you insist that it does it incorrectly.
2020-11-14T06:53:48Z kreyren_: like i can format it through s/^I/\s{2}/g next time if you want O.o
2020-11-14T06:54:23Z beach: I personally do not have a preference as to how you indent your code.  I am telling you the consequences of doing it wrong and using the wrong tools.
2020-11-14T06:55:07Z kreyren_: noted, will investigate
2020-11-14T06:55:53Z beach: Again, if you indent your code "manually", you will get it wrong, and then when your parentheses and your indentation do not correspond, people reading your code are not going to be pleased, because you are essentially lying to them.
2020-11-14T06:56:31Z beach: Of course, if you don't intend to expose your code, you can use whatever conventions you like.
2020-11-14T06:56:40Z moon-child: though in fairness, reformatting said code is only a couple of keystrokes.  But better if it were already formatted
2020-11-14T06:58:32Z kreyren_: kreyren@leonid:~/Repositories/s7i$ cat example/build.project | sed 's/\t/  /g' | ix
2020-11-14T06:58:32Z kreyren_: http://ix.io/2E6C
2020-11-14T06:58:34Z kreyren_: better?
2020-11-14T06:59:04Z kreyren_: quad used because i expect to make docs in that file for the used code
2020-11-14T06:59:32Z beach: moon-child: It just doesn't seem right to me that each person doing kreyren_ a favor should have to reformat the code, as opposed to kreyren_ getting it right in the first place.
2020-11-14T07:00:18Z moon-child: kreyren_: congratulations!  You get a http://porkmail.org/era/unix/award.html ;)
2020-11-14T07:00:26Z kreyren_: like i don't mind adapting alias in my bashrc for it O.o
2020-11-14T07:00:32Z beach: kreyren_: I don't think you read the Common Lisp HyperSpec entry correctly.
2020-11-14T07:00:46Z beach: ... about semicolons.
2020-11-14T07:00:48Z kreyren_: but in general i let my contributors to use whatever indentation then want and pipe that through GNU Indent during CI
2020-11-14T07:01:47Z kreyren_: beach, eh?
2020-11-14T07:03:00Z kreyren_: you want me to use double for the single because it's all in one form?
2020-11-14T07:03:37Z beach: Again, I have no such desire myself.  I am point you to the document that states the conventions.
2020-11-14T07:04:06Z beach: It is up to you to follow conventions or not.  But whether you do might influence the quality of the remarks you get on your code.
2020-11-14T07:04:18Z kreyren_: i though i did follow it x.x
2020-11-14T07:04:19Z beach: *pointing
2020-11-14T07:04:55Z beach: Two semicolons are not preceded by code.
2020-11-14T07:05:04Z beach: One semicolon is always preceded by code.
2020-11-14T07:05:31Z beach: clhs 2.4.4.2.5
2020-11-14T07:05:31Z specbot: Examples of Style for Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddbe.htm
2020-11-14T07:05:36Z kreyren_: http://ix.io/2E6F so like this
2020-11-14T07:05:36Z kreyren_: ?
2020-11-14T07:05:52Z kreyren_: i was looking at the example >..
2020-11-14T07:06:19Z beach: So in the example, do you see a single case where a single semicolon is first on a line?
2020-11-14T07:06:36Z beach: And do you see a single example where two semicolons follow some code on the same line?
2020-11-14T07:07:15Z beach: And do you see a single example of a two-semicolon top-level comment?
2020-11-14T07:08:02Z beach: Anyway, I need to get back to work.
2020-11-14T07:12:21Z kreyren_ concluded http://ix.io/2E6G
2020-11-14T07:12:43Z kreyren_ is confused because it doesn't specify standard for his stub flags e.g. FIXME
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2020-11-14T11:27:53Z Nilby: Is there something that can do ACME with hunchentoot ?
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2020-11-14T11:50:40Z edgar-rft: Nilby: have you already asked Bugs Bunny?
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2020-11-14T11:54:09Z Nilby: I was hoping to cut down on the cartoonishness of my setup, but maybe hunchentoot and drakma is already there.
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2020-11-14T11:58:27Z Lycurgus only knows that from hs
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2020-11-14T11:58:59Z Lycurgus .oO( likely equivocation )
2020-11-14T11:59:48Z ck_: Lycurgus: are you red or green in color, at the moment?
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2020-11-14T12:00:14Z Lycurgus: in this client, red
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2020-11-14T12:01:04Z ck_: all right
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2020-11-14T12:01:28Z Lycurgus: ck_, was that a captcha?
2020-11-14T12:02:53Z ck_: no, it wasn't completely automated -- the question was referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycurgus_Cup
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2020-11-14T12:04:19Z Lycurgus: ah. But I am https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:Lycurgus
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2020-11-14T12:06:35Z Lycurgus: the normal hue is red. Does anybody know if the garnet on github works?
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2020-11-14T12:21:22Z jackdaniel: phoe: n.b, it is good that you took the protocol proposed by sbcl, because this package is meant to implement the same-ish protocol
2020-11-14T12:22:27Z phoe: jackdaniel: I inferred as much
2020-11-14T12:23:16Z phoe: SBCL errors on GET-PROTOCOL-BY-NAME with an unknown protocol; I literally copied the error definition from it and installed it into ECL logic so now ECL interface mimics the SBCL one a little bit more
2020-11-14T12:24:43Z jackdaniel: yes, that's why I've mentioned that 'it is good' <;
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2020-11-14T12:25:09Z jackdaniel: (and to prove, that I indeed looked into it instead of blindly merging - even if there were no comments ;)
2020-11-14T12:26:04Z phoe: the last time you blindly merged my ECL patch I managed to break the build
2020-11-14T12:26:18Z phoe: so I am most glad for the review
2020-11-14T12:26:38Z jackdaniel: I don't remember blindly merging anything, but I'll keep that in mind
2020-11-14T12:26:59Z phoe: I remember one such instance
2020-11-14T12:27:33Z phoe: hence I tried to do as much testing as I could this time before pushing the MR
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2020-11-14T12:49:13Z Nilby: Lycurgus: earl-ducaine/cl-garnet partially works for me. It seems to want  some old X11 fonts installed though.
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2020-11-14T13:21:32Z Lycurgus: Nilby, ty. I will check it out later, would do now but it wants a separate env/user where it can do wierd stuff to ql
2020-11-14T13:21:57Z Lycurgus: btw, by ACME, did you mean Rob Pike's editor?
2020-11-14T13:22:27Z Nilby: I somehow rand it straight from the repl.
2020-11-14T13:22:34Z Lycurgus: that is to say it implicitly does, I wouldn't do what it wants to a working setuo
2020-11-14T13:22:38Z Lycurgus: *setup
2020-11-14T13:23:18Z Lycurgus: yeah I don't doubt the the procedure it wants you to do results in somekina working garnet
2020-11-14T13:23:29Z Nilby: no, actually rfc8555 "Automatic Certificate Management Environment"
2020-11-14T13:23:31Z Lycurgus: it just looks like it would clobber my working setup
2020-11-14T13:23:49Z Lycurgus: ah
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2020-11-14T13:24:57Z Lycurgus: the haskell thing of that name is a persverated joke
2020-11-14T13:25:34Z Nilby: I didn't do what the README said, I just quickloaded it and it worked. But it did mess with the running repl/image a bit of course, which I had to restart.
2020-11-14T13:26:27Z Lycurgus: ql didn find it when I did apropos ...
2020-11-14T13:27:08Z Lycurgus: by 'just quickloaded' you may mean executing the procedure i'm referring to
2020-11-14T13:27:33Z Lycurgus: as opposed to (ql:quickload "garnet") oder
2020-11-14T13:28:26Z Lycurgus: also starting a new env for it isn't a big deal already have few but not right now
2020-11-14T13:29:41Z Nilby: I just did the equivalent of pushing it's directory to asdf:*central-registry* and then do (ql:quickload :garnet) from my shell.
2020-11-14T13:30:44Z Lycurgus: ah OK, that sounds insightful, will follow up on it later, ty.
2020-11-14T13:31:35Z Nilby: Good luck. I probably have one of the most diververgent lisp environments around.
2020-11-14T13:31:51Z Lycurgus: :)
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2020-11-14T13:34:48Z Lycurgus: also the readme does say upfront it's a one shot repl
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2020-11-14T13:36:43Z Nilby: The demos are actually a little fun trip back in time.
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2020-11-14T14:07:41Z Josh_2: Has anyone used compatible-metaclasses?
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2020-11-14T14:15:08Z beach: What are they?
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2020-11-14T14:15:44Z Josh_2: It's a library https://www.hexstreamsoft.com/libraries/compatible-metaclasses/
2020-11-14T14:16:09Z beach: Oh, that link name sounds familiar, and gives an unpleasant feeling.
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2020-11-14T14:21:49Z mseddon: hehe
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2020-11-14T16:30:04Z Lycurgus: Nilby was right, it (garnet) does load unproblematically, at least in a relatively new quicklisp env with sbcl
2020-11-14T16:30:29Z Lycurgus: didn realize the config changes it asked for in that case overrode nothing
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2020-11-14T17:38:20Z jmercouris: so I have the following: http://dpaste.com/9CPFKPGHE
2020-11-14T17:38:28Z jmercouris: I'm wondering if I can somehow get rid of the converged let binding
2020-11-14T17:38:35Z jmercouris: is there a way I could rewrite it a bit cleaner?
2020-11-14T17:39:08Z mfiano: gasp
2020-11-14T17:39:09Z phoe: yes
2020-11-14T17:39:14Z phoe: (loop with converged = nil for ...)
2020-11-14T17:39:21Z phoe: also this UNLESS looks ultra weird
2020-11-14T17:39:35Z jmercouris: gasp lol
2020-11-14T17:39:36Z phoe: why does convergedp take two arguments, the second of which being a SETF form?
2020-11-14T17:39:40Z beach: jmercouris: Your indentation is off.
2020-11-14T17:39:43Z jmercouris: is that so?
2020-11-14T17:39:45Z jmercouris: hm let me se
2020-11-14T17:39:59Z jmercouris: that's what emacs does I reindented the whole defun
2020-11-14T17:40:13Z beach: jmercouris: Also, you should initialize your LET variable if it is used before being assigned to.
2020-11-14T17:40:14Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2141#2141
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2020-11-14T17:40:39Z jmercouris: so my convergedp takes the result of the setf
2020-11-14T17:40:50Z jmercouris: it's checking the delta between two values
2020-11-14T17:41:01Z jmercouris: the old one, and what it is now set to
2020-11-14T17:41:15Z jmercouris: phoe: Aha, yes, that's exactly what I wanted to do!
2020-11-14T17:41:24Z jmercouris: I had a feeling in the back of my mind it was part of loop somehow
2020-11-14T17:41:25Z jmercouris: thank you
2020-11-14T17:42:03Z phoe: jmercouris: annotation at https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2141#2142
2020-11-14T17:42:08Z phoe: should be equivalent
2020-11-14T17:42:11Z phoe: but also more readable
2020-11-14T17:42:33Z jmercouris: hm, also a good idea
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2020-11-14T17:42:39Z jmercouris: uses more lines, but far more readable
2020-11-14T17:42:49Z jmercouris: I like it, thanks
2020-11-14T17:43:26Z phoe: jmercouris: second annotation at https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2141#2143
2020-11-14T17:43:48Z phoe: I removed the convergedp variable altogether and instead use explicit control flow
2020-11-14T17:44:09Z phoe: also the new-rank function could be extracted into a local helper function methinks
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2020-11-14T17:44:51Z jmercouris: hm you think I should put that in an flet huh
2020-11-14T17:45:02Z phoe: very yes
2020-11-14T17:45:05Z jmercouris: lots of things to think about, give me a second, and I'll see what I can come up with
2020-11-14T17:45:07Z phoe: to separate iteration from logic
2020-11-14T17:45:14Z jmercouris: I have to peel some potatoes now, one second
2020-11-14T17:46:35Z phoe: third annotation at https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2141#2145 - I also added a T return value to let you know that convergence happened; otherwise it'll return NIL
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2020-11-14T17:53:04Z jeosol: Good morning guys
2020-11-14T17:53:44Z phoe: HEYYY
2020-11-14T17:53:54Z phoe: woops, caps lock
2020-11-14T17:54:36Z jeosol: hi, been a while. Just finished my move, few weeks back. The book and all editing is finalized i hope
2020-11-14T17:57:00Z jeosol: experts on remote calls, I have a small issue I am trying to debug and do it correct. I have an application, takes a few minutes to load and set up. So normally, I create an image  for faster start up and in-package to the package where the function I want to call is defined
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2020-11-14T18:00:46Z jeosol: I want to access this from another running lisp, I do the swank:create-server :port 10001, etc . Then, I want to use swank-client:slime-eval to evaluate a function on the remote running image. I feel I am not doing something right, as it only works if I leave the remote sbcl terminal in :cl-user and (use-package ...) where the function is defined.
2020-11-14T18:01:12Z jeosol: To understand the issue, imagine this simple paste: https://bit.ly/2UusCEa
2020-11-14T18:02:34Z jeosol: I not an expert on the remote evaluations. Ideally, I define mycube in mymath package
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2020-11-14T18:06:25Z jeosol: fixed paste: https://bit.ly/2UuHpil
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2020-11-14T18:29:06Z phoe: what do you mean, "only works"? what's the error otherwise?
2020-11-14T18:29:40Z phoe: why don't you return or describe the error object? "We caught a condition" gives us nothing to work with regarding figuring out what really happened
2020-11-14T18:30:20Z jeosol: If I run the remote to do (in-package :cl-user) (use-package :mymath) that call in the updated paste works
2020-11-14T18:30:35Z jeosol: my real case also works that way too,
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2020-11-14T18:34:28Z jeosol: I was wondering if there is a way to make it work. If I paste the call to the swank-client:slime-eval on the remote it works. I was thinking swank-client:slime-eval recognizes/honors the current *package* of the remote and just evaluates the function
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2020-11-14T18:36:00Z mfiano: jmercouris: It's always a good idea to break up the logic like was done. Another thing you could do to perhaps improve readability, is rewrite it as a DOLIST inside a DOTIMES
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2020-11-14T18:37:40Z mfiano: To me, that is more readable, as I can instantly tell what it is doing without looking at the intermediary loop keywords.
2020-11-14T18:38:12Z mfiano: I sometimes rewrite nested LOOPs as such when it results in more readable code (to me at least).
2020-11-14T18:39:15Z phoe: jeosol: I wonder how the symbol MYCUBE is converted
2020-11-14T18:39:37Z phoe: whether it's sent as CL-USER:MYCUBE or as MYMATH:MYCUBE or just as MYCUBE
2020-11-14T18:39:46Z jeosol: phoe: thanks for looking into this.
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2020-11-14T18:40:04Z phoe: also, your handler-case is really preventing any further debugging
2020-11-14T18:40:06Z jeosol: So it can't be sent as mymath:mycube because on the upstream side, there is no notion of mymath
2020-11-14T18:40:08Z phoe: we have no debug information whatsoever
2020-11-14T18:40:16Z phoe: but it can be sent as cl-user:mycube
2020-11-14T18:40:23Z phoe: which will not work nicely
2020-11-14T18:40:36Z jeosol: I copied that handler part, i will say ignore it, I am not an expert there too, perhaps you can advise
2020-11-14T18:41:11Z jeosol: the thing is if the call to the remote doesn't go well, it messes up the remote (hangs, enter debugger) and I don't want that, as I want to be able to do more calls
2020-11-14T18:41:58Z jeosol: for the mycube, I think it is sent as cl-user:mycube which is my when I (use-package :mymath) on remote, everything works
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2020-11-14T18:43:50Z mfiano: jmercouris: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2141#2146
2020-11-14T18:44:18Z phoe: then use (error (e) (list :error (princ e))) as the handler; that'll at least give you the condition report.
2020-11-14T18:44:43Z phoe: jeosol: yes, I see; hmmmm
2020-11-14T18:45:06Z phoe: the issue is that you are sending Lisp forms from client to server
2020-11-14T18:45:23Z phoe: which means that you are limited by the packages which are available on both sides
2020-11-14T18:47:42Z jeosol: Imagine that is the case.
2020-11-14T18:48:23Z jeosol: Now I recall why I took out the error information, I was getting some "illegal sharp macro character :#\< .." error
2020-11-14T18:49:33Z jeosol: phoe:  regarding the comment available on both sides, that means the client doesn't recognize the current package on the server
2020-11-14T18:50:43Z phoe: wait a second, sharp macro character?
2020-11-14T18:50:56Z phoe: on the character #\< ?
2020-11-14T18:51:32Z phoe: something much more is screwed up; for whatever reason, the reader chokes on unreadable objects, like #<FOO ...>
2020-11-14T18:51:45Z phoe: which should not happen
2020-11-14T18:52:25Z jeosol: hahaha: that's is true.
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2020-11-14T18:56:17Z jeosol: Did a restart, and still get the #\< error, when I intentionally send wrong input to server, otherwise, everything works okay. There is something messing up the reader
2020-11-14T18:56:20Z jeosol: thx buddy
2020-11-14T19:00:33Z phoe: <3
2020-11-14T19:02:30Z jeosol: it works with the hack as described above. I'd leave it like that for now
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2020-11-15T04:13:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-15T06:18:05Z pleomaxx: Hi!, how can I use `sb-ext:schedule-timer` within a binary executable? I've set `:build-operation` as `program-op` in my asd definition, and I'm using `asdf:make`  to build the binary executable.
2020-11-15T06:18:24Z pleomaxx: All timers work fine when I set them from sly, but the executable just quits without caring about any pending timers. I feel like I'm missing something obvious but the SBCL manual doesn't say anything about this in the timers section.
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2020-11-15T06:19:19Z beach: pleomaxx: Did you try asking in #sbcl?  Your question is very SBCL specific.
2020-11-15T06:23:07Z pleomaxx: beach: Thanks, I didn't know the channel existed. I'll ask there.
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2020-11-15T08:46:13Z pve: phoe: I replaced my class machinery and I'm now happy to report that my classes are no longer memory-hungry on SBCL :)
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2020-11-15T08:55:04Z pve: In addition, I was able to achieve the "is a" circularity for the class "Metaclass", which I wasn't able to do earlier.
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2020-11-15T09:08:03Z beach: Congratulations.
2020-11-15T09:08:39Z pve: beach: thanks!
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2020-11-15T09:09:44Z beach: And you did it by not using Common Lisp classes at all?
2020-11-15T09:09:58Z phoe: pve: :O
2020-11-15T09:10:02Z phoe: how did you do that?
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2020-11-15T09:16:13Z pve: beach: a moment, while I try to formulate this
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2020-11-15T09:38:49Z pve: beach: I define a subclass of standard-class to represent the classes in my language. For each class I create a single instance of that subclass which is used to receive "class" messages, such as "new" or "subclass". To this instance I give a second subclass of standard-class (specific to each class) to use as a factory for spawning in-language instances of that class.
2020-11-15T09:39:09Z pve: It sounds pretty stupid when I explain it..
2020-11-15T09:39:50Z beach: Not at all.
2020-11-15T09:39:52Z pve: but it works and allows the "class messages" to honor the class hierarchy
2020-11-15T09:40:31Z beach: I see the similarities between what you do and the first phases of SICL bootstrapping.
2020-11-15T09:40:47Z beach: I also need to create objects that behave like classes, but that aren't host classes.
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2020-11-15T09:42:18Z pve: by "class messages" I mean something (defmethod foo ((self (eql (find-class 'my-class)))) ... ) where (call-next-method) would find the eql-method of the superclass
2020-11-15T09:42:35Z pve: aha, that's very interesting
2020-11-15T09:43:57Z beach: And I am going to have to figure out how to explain that in a presentation for the online Lisp meeting. :)
2020-11-15T09:44:04Z pve: hehe
2020-11-15T09:44:11Z phoe: beach: please do, I am curious
2020-11-15T09:44:34Z beach: Yes, that is the plan.
2020-11-15T09:45:46Z pve: phoe: by doing this replacement, I only need to have two subclasses of standard-class, so that apparently took the memory-usage down to "normal" levels
2020-11-15T09:46:00Z beach: I see.
2020-11-15T09:48:02Z phoe: pve: nice!
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2020-11-15T10:02:58Z h4ck3r9696: When should I use defstruct instead of defclass?
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2020-11-15T10:04:34Z phoe: h4ck3r9696: ideally, never
2020-11-15T10:04:56Z phoe: in practice, structs are dumber and less redefinable but somewhat faster to access.
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2020-11-15T10:05:54Z h4ck3r9696: What I'm doing requires a lot of performance. Is the performance impact that significant?
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2020-11-15T10:06:26Z beach: What is it that you are doing?
2020-11-15T10:06:58Z phoe: again, greatly depends; just using structs over objects will give you a minor performance gain but it doesn't mean that it'll eliminate all other issues with your program's efficiency
2020-11-15T10:07:09Z h4ck3r9696: Evolution simulation using neural networks.
2020-11-15T10:07:27Z h4ck3r9696: phoe: I see
2020-11-15T10:07:55Z phoe: I'd start off by using classes and then optimize that, rather than starting with structs and cursing about their lack of programmability
2020-11-15T10:08:41Z h4ck3r9696: Yeah, i'll just use the profiler when I start noticing slowdowns. Thanks!
2020-11-15T10:08:53Z phoe: clim.flamegraph is amazing
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2020-11-15T10:09:08Z phoe: you can use it to profile your stuff graphically.
2020-11-15T10:10:25Z beach: h4ck3r9696: It is my experience that the same people who are concerned about low-level performance are often fairly ignorant when it comes to designing efficient data structures, so the energy is better spent on those data structures.  But given your domain, you have probably already done that work.
2020-11-15T10:12:28Z h4ck3r9696: beach: Well, I'm actually a C programmer that got tired of reinventing the wheel. I looked into common lisp because I read somewhere that you have the speed of C, and the elegance of smalltalk
2020-11-15T10:13:25Z beach: To get the speed of C, you need to use a very good implementation, AND you need to understand where to put type declarations that matter.
2020-11-15T10:13:30Z MichaelRaskin: It has better and more varied elegance options to choose from, even!
2020-11-15T10:14:05Z MichaelRaskin: But speed of C would probably need to have a ton of type declarations and depart from elegance in the speed-critical part
2020-11-15T10:14:16Z aeth: nah
2020-11-15T10:14:24Z aeth: you can hide inelegant code very well...
2020-11-15T10:14:32Z MichaelRaskin: Hide, sure
2020-11-15T10:14:37Z MichaelRaskin: But ut will exist
2020-11-15T10:14:56Z h4ck3r9696: I feel like the benefits of common lisp outweights the raw speed of C
2020-11-15T10:15:14Z beach: h4ck3r9696: Then you should definitely avoid DEFSTRUCT.
2020-11-15T10:16:03Z h4ck3r9696: Okay. I was wondering, because some people seem to use it.
2020-11-15T10:16:38Z beach: Those are typically the ones that I provided a description of.
2020-11-15T10:16:43Z beach: Not always, of course.
2020-11-15T10:17:37Z h4ck3r9696: For example, in "Land of Lisp", he only uses defstruct
2020-11-15T10:18:00Z phoe: defstruct structures are dumb, as in, not really programmable using CLOS which is a programmable object system
2020-11-15T10:18:47Z phoe: this has one main benefit - performance gain when accessing structure slots - and lots of issues, e.g. lack of multiple inheritance, lack of programmable slot access protocol, lack of metaclasses and such
2020-11-15T10:19:00Z phoe: the latter become more painful the more experienced you are in Lisp
2020-11-15T10:19:44Z h4ck3r9696: phoe: I'm kind of new to common lisp, it feels like black magic when you talk about "multiple inheritance" and "metaclasses". I get C++ flashbacks.
2020-11-15T10:20:31Z beach: Very different from C++.
2020-11-15T10:20:33Z phoe: actually lisp has multiple inheritance and metaclasses done right compared to C++
2020-11-15T10:20:35Z beach: Fortunately.
2020-11-15T10:21:31Z h4ck3r9696: Do you have any resources to learn lisp OOP? I'm disgusted of OOP since I touched C++ but it seems that lisp OOP is better.
2020-11-15T10:22:04Z beach: I think PCL uses CLOS, no?
2020-11-15T10:22:06Z phoe: Practical Common Lisp, I'd guess
2020-11-15T10:22:08Z phoe: yes
2020-11-15T10:22:13Z phoe: it has two chapters related to CLOS
2020-11-15T10:22:38Z h4ck3r9696: Okay, thanks.
2020-11-15T10:24:11Z edgar-rft: there's still Nick Levine's "figurine aardvark" CLOS tutorial  where you can find all the basics on *one* page -> http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/clos-tutorial/index.html
2020-11-15T10:26:37Z h4ck3r9696: This look way saner than c++. Thanks
2020-11-15T10:26:47Z MichaelRaskin: Not a high bar
2020-11-15T10:27:03Z MichaelRaskin: (Common Lisp clears some bars quite a bit higher)
2020-11-15T10:27:33Z phoe: h4ck3r9696: maybe you could check out Little Bits of Lisp on YT
2020-11-15T10:27:48Z phoe: I guess that Baggers must be talking about CLOS somewhere in there
2020-11-15T10:27:56Z h4ck3r9696: I think I know the channel. It's the OpenGL guy?
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2020-11-15T10:29:08Z phoe: yes
2020-11-15T10:29:16Z phoe: the one with an astonishing beard
2020-11-15T10:29:42Z edgar-rft: Not 100% sure if it's the same guy but Baggers did a lot of graphics stuff, too.
2020-11-15T10:30:42Z h4ck3r9696: Yes, it's him. I already watched some of his videos, i didn't know he talked about CLOS.
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2020-11-15T10:30:53Z MichaelRaskin: Reference documentation (HyperSpec) might be initially targeted at implementors, but is so well-written that as a user reference it is also pretty good.
2020-11-15T10:31:04Z MichaelRaskin: (but sure, first grab some introductions)
2020-11-15T10:32:18Z h4ck3r9696: I don't think i can read the HyperSpec yet, but it probably is the best source of documentation for common lisp
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2020-11-15T10:33:38Z MichaelRaskin: Yeah, try reading it from time to time, once you find yourself comfortable reading it, it is a very valuable source. Still won't be your only source, of course
2020-11-15T10:34:42Z beach: We do need a language reference document though.
2020-11-15T10:34:51Z beach: Probably as a website.
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2020-11-15T10:40:03Z edgar-rft: The Hyperspec is a reference, it states how things *are* but it doesn't explain why. There are historical books like "Common Lisp the Language, 2nd edition" (the predecessor book of the hyperspec) with *lots* of explanations. But I think the best introductionary book is Perter Seibel's "Practical Common Lisp".
2020-11-15T10:41:38Z h4ck3r9696: I'm reading "Practical Common Lisp". I like it, because i think the most important thing isn't to know what features a language has, but how to uses thoses features correctly to slove a problem well.
2020-11-15T10:41:59Z h4ck3r9696: C++ does the exact inverse of this.
2020-11-15T10:42:21Z beach: All C++ books?
2020-11-15T10:43:17Z h4ck3r9696: The ones i've read. They go like : "You should use this C++24 feature instead of the C one because it's iconic C++"
2020-11-15T10:43:30Z beach: Hmm.  I see.
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2020-11-15T11:20:26Z cl-arthur: Is there any (approximately) de-facto laziness library?
2020-11-15T11:21:30Z phoe: I've seen CLAZY but did not use it
2020-11-15T11:22:07Z edgar-rft is too lazy to load libraries
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2020-11-15T11:59:48Z cl-arthur: CLAZY doesn't seem like quite what I want/need, but thanks!
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2020-11-15T14:38:54Z Josh_2: I have a list of objects, each contains a list of length N, whats the easiest way to find the object with the shortest length list?
2020-11-15T14:39:32Z Josh_2: obviously I could just use loop but I was wondering if there is a higher order function
2020-11-15T14:40:10Z h4ck3r9696: (mapcar (lambda (x) (length (accessor x))) objects-list)
2020-11-15T14:40:25Z Fade: I guess you could map/reduce/sort, but loop will probably be clearer.
2020-11-15T14:41:30Z Josh_2: thats what I was thinking Fade
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2020-11-15T14:43:28Z phoe: Josh_2: alexandria:extremum
2020-11-15T14:43:58Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2147#2147
2020-11-15T14:44:13Z phoe: flip #'> into #'< to find the shortest
2020-11-15T14:45:50Z Josh_2: Works perfectly thanks
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2020-11-15T18:41:53Z clicat: How do you handle database access from a multi-threaded application? Do you use mutexes around every db access? Or is there any functionality of hunchentoot/mito that I should know about?
2020-11-15T18:43:06Z clicat: To be precise I have an hunchentoot web server and I'm using Mito to access a sqlite3 database, and when I hit F5 really fast on a page which requires fetching data from the database, the server fails with a broken pipe error, and won't handle any remaining connection until I restart it
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2020-11-15T18:44:20Z clicat: I don't think that making hunchentoot single-threaded is a viable option in the long term
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2020-11-15T18:45:03Z Josh_2: Surely the database handles this automatically?
2020-11-15T18:45:23Z Josh_2: and you can just lock access if you want to make sure only one access happens at a time ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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2020-11-15T18:51:49Z clicat: Josh_2: I know sqlite3 has some locking functionality, but as it happens my application breaks when I send very frequent queries to pages requiring database access, but other pages are just fine, and the backtraces show an unhandled memory fault after mito operations
2020-11-15T18:52:04Z Josh_2: huh
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2020-11-15T18:52:58Z Josh_2: do you have to use sqlite3 xD
2020-11-15T18:53:27Z clicat: Not necessarily, why?
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2020-11-15T18:54:23Z Josh_2: you might not have the problem with a different database like Postgres
2020-11-15T18:54:33Z Josh_2: if you don't want to lock your accesses
2020-11-15T18:54:46Z phoe: clicat: could you post the stack trace somewhere? I wonder where exactly the issue lies
2020-11-15T18:55:50Z clicat: phoe: sure, give me a minute
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2020-11-15T19:06:13Z clicat: https://pastebin.com/Tb0pwWTh
2020-11-15T19:07:34Z phoe: hey wait, that's a sqlite error
2020-11-15T19:07:42Z phoe: not a postgres one
2020-11-15T19:08:13Z phoe: mito calls into sqlite, sqlite invokes sqlite::really-finalize-statement which jumps into foreign code
2020-11-15T19:08:18Z phoe: and that's where the segfault seems to happen
2020-11-15T19:08:28Z clicat: I'm not using postgres, Josh_2 suggested I did
2020-11-15T19:08:34Z phoe: oh - I see
2020-11-15T19:08:41Z Josh_2: ye
2020-11-15T19:08:55Z phoe: well then, that's a bug somewhere in the stack - likely in the CL sqlite interface because it should not cause segfault
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2020-11-15T19:11:34Z Josh_2: try postgres with postmodern
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2020-11-15T19:12:35Z _death: I think the broken pipe behavior was recently revisited in sbcl
2020-11-15T19:13:29Z _death: 2.0.10: minor incompatible change: SIGPIPE is ignored by default again. (#1897624)
2020-11-15T19:13:30Z clicat: I'm trying postgres right now (but still with Mito, I don't want to give up its ORM)
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2020-11-15T19:32:33Z Josh_2: How can I turn my doc strings into markdown, something I can put in my readme.md
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2020-11-15T19:40:26Z kristof: Is there an affordable copy of The Art of the Metaobject Protocol anywhere?
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2020-11-15T19:41:33Z kristof: For $20 or less. I've seen it available for over $45 and I don't know if I'm willing to spend that much.
2020-11-15T19:44:55Z kristof: Ah nvm... I found it on libgen. Would still like to pay the publisher, though.
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2020-11-15T21:36:55Z Xach: Hmm, what CL has system functions in the KERNEL package?
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2020-11-15T21:38:32Z _death: maybe cmucl?
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2020-11-15T21:41:03Z Xach checks
2020-11-15T21:41:24Z _death: the sbcl fork added sb- prefix
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2020-11-15T21:45:21Z Xach: Darn, I don't have the 32-bit runtime cmucl releases expect on this system
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2020-11-15T21:47:50Z _death: comfort yourself with this short abelian sandpile fun https://adeht.org/dump/vid-2020-11-14T2143.mp4
2020-11-15T21:49:29Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: Scieneer too
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2020-11-16T00:01:15Z jonjitsu[m]: I'm using asdf/quicklisp, there is a library I want to use that is not on quicklisp, what approach would be good to include it? I tried creating a vendor/ dir, cloning the project and adding vendor/ to the asdf registry but that didn't work.
2020-11-16T00:04:56Z Xach: jonjitsu[m]: there are a lot of options to recover.
2020-11-16T00:05:19Z Xach: jonjitsu[m]: what you tried *should* have worked, if the asdf registry update was done successfully.
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2020-11-16T00:05:46Z Xach: jonjitsu[m]: one easy option, that doesn't require any config changes, is to clone into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ instead.
2020-11-16T00:05:59Z Xach: but that might not be suitable for your project - it depends on the goals.
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2020-11-16T00:07:47Z jonjitsu[m]: One criteria I wanted to maintain was the ability to clone the project on another system and be able to just use it with asdf/quicklisp and not have to remember to do other tasks like cloning repos in specific spots
2020-11-16T00:08:10Z jonjitsu[m]: I added the vendor/ with `(push "/absolute/path/to/vendor/" asdf:*central-registry*)`
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2020-11-16T00:08:42Z Xach: jonjitsu[m]: it would have to include the directory that has the project's *.asd file
2020-11-16T00:08:54Z Xach: jonjitsu[m]: how will users set things up so your project loads?
2020-11-16T00:09:07Z Xach: that also involves either configuring asdf or putting it in a particular place.
2020-11-16T00:09:35Z jonjitsu[m]: ya, ideally I could do something in the .asd file
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2020-11-16T00:11:28Z Xach: Is this intended for people who have not used CL before?
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2020-11-16T00:12:16Z jonjitsu[m]: no, this is just to make working with it easier
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2020-11-16T00:13:20Z Xach: Ok. For what it's worth, I clone everything into ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ for that kind of thing.
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2020-11-16T00:14:52Z phoe: jonjitsu[m]: you might need to push pathnames there rather than strings, but I'm not sure about this
2020-11-16T00:14:58Z jonjitsu[m]: `git clone project ~/quicklisp/local-projects/project` is enough?
2020-11-16T00:15:08Z phoe: so #p"/foo/bar/" rather than just "/foo/bar/"
2020-11-16T00:15:14Z phoe: jonjitsu[m]: yes, it should be enough
2020-11-16T00:15:20Z phoe: Quicklisp will ensure that asdf picks it up
2020-11-16T00:16:20Z jonjitsu[m]: phoe: I did try also with a #p string
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2020-11-16T00:17:40Z phoe: hmmm, OK
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2020-11-16T04:00:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-11-16T04:02:10Z blackadder: Morning beach
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2020-11-16T04:14:47Z asarch: How do you pass values to (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((instance my-class) &key) ...)?
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2020-11-16T04:20:38Z beach: As keyword arguments.
2020-11-16T04:21:00Z beach: You would have to mention them explicitly as &KEY arguments, or use &REST.
2020-11-16T04:21:46Z asarch: I mean, (let (x (make-instance 'my-class  <- Where?
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2020-11-16T04:22:47Z beach: (make-instance 'my-class :key1 <value-form-1> :key2 <value-form-2>)
2020-11-16T04:23:03Z beach: ... like I said.
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2020-11-16T04:25:33Z asarch: I see
2020-11-16T04:25:35Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-11-16T04:25:42Z asarch: Thank you very much beach :-)
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2020-11-16T04:27:12Z beach: Sure.
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2020-11-16T07:00:04Z flip214: etimmons: thanks for the puri merge!
2020-11-16T07:05:24Z etimmons: You're welcome, but I didn't really do much! I just pulled the latest from git.kpe.io. I assumed you get the fix to kmr somehow?
2020-11-16T07:06:44Z flip214: Yeah, I guess so... was some time ago
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2020-11-16T07:14:56Z etimmons: Do you happen to remember how you got it to his attention? Some other folks have found that mirror and filled issues against it. I'd like to redirect them to the right place
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2020-11-16T07:16:55Z flip214: etimmons: see pm
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2020-11-16T11:20:49Z jmercouris: hello everyone, we wrote an article about CI/packaging of CL https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/article/continuous-testing-and-packaging.org
2020-11-16T11:28:15Z easye: jmercouris: Just read it from <https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/jv40nw/nyxt_continuous_testing_and_packaging_of_a_lisp/>.  Nice exposition.
2020-11-16T11:29:55Z easye: Is nyxt 2 gonna work easily under macOS?  If so, which rendering engine did you finally decide upon?
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2020-11-16T11:39:18Z jmercouris: it will eventually hopefully, work easily on macOS
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2020-11-16T11:39:25Z jmercouris: the problem is in packaging WebKitGTK+ for distribution
2020-11-16T11:39:49Z jmercouris: we haven't comitted to a rendering engine, we are trying to stay rendering engine agnostic
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2020-11-16T11:40:12Z easye: I think concentrating on a .deb packaging for a "flawless" Linux nyxt 2 is the right decision.
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2020-11-16T11:40:33Z easye: nyxt 3 will implement a rendering engine via McCLIM, right? ;)
2020-11-16T11:41:11Z jmercouris: lol of course :-)
2020-11-16T11:45:41Z easye: Does nyxt have a rendering engine to render content in, say, an emacs buffer?  It would be interesting to have a nyxt shell rather than dealing with eww/w3m.
2020-11-16T11:46:44Z jmercouris: No, that isn't possible at the moment
2020-11-16T11:47:22Z jmercouris: we hope to eventually supersede Emacs and provide a complete replacement
2020-11-16T11:47:33Z jmercouris: for now, we are just focused on the web side of things
2020-11-16T11:47:37Z easye: Hooking into some kind of text rendering engine would perhaps strengthen the case of agnosticism.  But, time, you know?
2020-11-16T11:47:38Z phoe: a replacement for emacs itself? :O
2020-11-16T11:47:58Z jmercouris: yes, eventually :-)
2020-11-16T11:48:18Z easye thinks there should be a Greenspun corollary concerning the reimplementation of Emacs.
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2020-11-16T13:03:25Z aeth: easye: yes
2020-11-16T13:03:34Z aeth: everyone plans to bloat their project to eventually replace Emacs
2020-11-16T13:04:18Z aeth: (in the CL community, at least)
2020-11-16T13:04:25Z aeth: and the corollary to that is that nobody actually gets around to even starting that
2020-11-16T13:06:36Z jackdaniel points at climacs, hemlock and lem
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2020-11-16T13:15:31Z Josh_2: Aternoon
2020-11-16T13:16:36Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-11-16T13:20:49Z aeth: jackdaniel: my bad; 3 people.
2020-11-16T13:21:33Z jackdaniel: I'm sure that there are more people behind each project
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2020-11-16T13:22:36Z jackdaniel: whether said projects are good ideas is a whole different matter, I'm just pointing out that some people actually get around and start that
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2020-11-16T14:50:06Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Have you think collaborating with climacs?
2020-11-16T14:50:33Z ebrasca: jmercouris: Have you think collaborating with climacs?
2020-11-16T14:50:40Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Sory!
2020-11-16T14:51:44Z jackdaniel: I will let that slide.
2020-11-16T14:51:46Z jackdaniel: ,-)
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2020-11-16T14:59:21Z beach: ebrasca: I don't think that now would be a good time for that.
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2020-11-16T14:59:48Z beach: ebrasca: I am stuck with trying to come up with a way to define how different forms should be indented.
2020-11-16T15:00:00Z beach: Once I can do that, progress should be faster.
2020-11-16T15:00:11Z beach: But i am busy with other stuff at the moment, as you can imagine.
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2020-11-16T15:42:21Z ebrasca: beach: Interesting
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2020-11-16T15:43:51Z jmercouris: aeth: there is no bloat in Nyxt, but we’ll be sure to add a bunch to qualify as an emacs replacement :-D
2020-11-16T15:43:53Z dim: beach: do you happen to have a way to programmatically “configure” indentation of forms? if yes, well, make something very simple and wrong in many places, and let users contribute? so that you can focus on something else and also have input?
2020-11-16T15:46:28Z dim: (put 'register-groups-bind 'common-lisp-indent-function 2) ; is something I use in my Emacs Lisp setup, for instance
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2020-11-16T15:47:26Z beach: dim: Yes, well, I have code for indentation, with LOTS of code duplication.  I think I need something simple like that, which will work in most cases, and just write code for it once.
2020-11-16T15:48:26Z dim: in case it's not very clear, what I mean is that it would be nicer if we would not overload you with also having to find the proper set of indentation rules, on-top of everything else you are already contributing...
2020-11-16T15:49:06Z beach: Ah, yes I see what you mean.
2020-11-16T15:49:30Z dim: so even a not-very-polished API passes the bar, and you're free to move on ;-)
2020-11-16T15:50:24Z jackdaniel: hm, api that may change in the future may spawn some bitrottenware
2020-11-16T15:50:25Z beach: Well, the entire thing is messy, both in terms of its definition and in terms of its implementation.
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2020-11-16T15:51:06Z beach: For instance, the simple thing that Emacs uses does not take into account the nature of sub-expressions.
2020-11-16T15:53:08Z beach: Here is a simple example.  Type (let ((mumble<newline>234)<newline>(prog1<newline>345))
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2020-11-16T15:54:01Z beach: Emacs doesn't have a way to indicate that the first sub-expression of LET is a list of bindings, so the (PROG1 ...) binding is treated as a form.
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2020-11-16T15:54:48Z beach: So I need a way to say that LET should be indented with the first sub-expression being a list of bindings, and the remaining expressions are in the body.
2020-11-16T15:55:11Z beach: Then the "list of bindings" must refer to a different indentation rule.
2020-11-16T15:57:21Z dim: yeah so it's not about the indentation rules themselves yet, more about the engine itself?
2020-11-16T15:58:06Z beach: Right, the engine, and a way of representing the rules to avoid code duplication between LET, LET*, etc.
2020-11-16T15:58:40Z beach: The engine is messy because of things like comments and the possibility of the form being incomplete.
2020-11-16T15:58:40Z dim: so some kind of a classification system for common lisp code forms
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2020-11-16T15:59:18Z beach: A classification system that is also operational.
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2020-11-16T16:00:35Z beach: Something like (LET <bindings> <declarations> <body>) where <...> refer to separate indentation rules.
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2020-11-16T16:02:32Z beach: The engine is complicated by the fact that the bindings may start on the same line as the LET or they may start on the next line.  And by the fact that comments may refer to the bindings, etc. etc.
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2020-11-16T16:06:30Z pve: I wonder if machine learning could be used to indent code (e.g. generate rules). It seems like a pretty fuzzy problem.
2020-11-16T16:07:24Z beach: I don't think it is fuzzy.  There are just a lot of cases to consider.
2020-11-16T16:07:26Z splittist: Something that can deal with DO, extended LOOP, WITH-ACCESSORS and various flavours of DEFCLASS slot declarations and not be write-only sounds hard.
2020-11-16T16:07:43Z pve: beach: right
2020-11-16T16:07:53Z beach: splittist: I am willing to write special-purpose code for some of the more complicated ones.
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2020-11-16T18:24:02Z ebrasca: beach: Have you think about themes for climacs?
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2020-11-16T18:28:16Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: as far as I understand beach talks now about "second climacs", a successor which does not have gui yet, afaik he doesn't work on climacs anymore
2020-11-16T18:29:18Z ebrasca: For me it is climacs. Like emacs 26 is emacs.
2020-11-16T18:29:58Z jackdaniel: emacs 26 is emacs, because it evolved from the old version. that's not the case here
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2020-11-16T18:43:10Z mseddon: beach, a new editor? that interests me.
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2020-11-16T19:36:03Z Josh_2: Do themes break indentation in emacs?
2020-11-16T19:36:29Z Josh_2: https://imgur.com/me96zxK.png I am unsure why this has started happening
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2020-11-16T19:43:41Z Josh_2: maybe It's my font
2020-11-16T19:44:59Z phadthai: users at #emacs might be more clueful, I've never written an emacs theme here and don't really know if they typically can break functionality
2020-11-16T19:46:28Z Josh_2: I'll go ask
2020-11-16T19:52:32Z White_Flame: Josh_2: it's a proportional font.  Does indentation just count spaces or does it actually align to character locations?
2020-11-16T19:52:44Z Josh_2: I don't know the answer to that
2020-11-16T19:53:05Z White_Flame: my guess is that it just counts spaces, and therefore it's the proportionality of the font that's the problem
2020-11-16T19:53:58Z Josh_2: I have   (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil)  (setq-default tab-width 4)) in .emacs
2020-11-16T19:54:30Z White_Flame: actually, with a proportional font, tabs might be slightly better :-P
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2020-11-16T19:54:37Z Josh_2: oof
2020-11-16T19:54:46Z White_Flame: but none of those settings would really fix it, since "tab width" is still just counting space characters
2020-11-16T19:55:05Z White_Flame: monospace or bust, kinda literally :-P
2020-11-16T19:55:13Z Josh_2: ah
2020-11-16T19:55:29Z White_Flame: (disclaimer:  I have no clue about anything emacs related at all)
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2020-11-16T20:00:35Z Josh_2: okay yes it was because the font wasn't monospace
2020-11-16T20:00:38Z Josh_2: Thanks White_Flame
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2020-11-16T21:25:21Z phoe: Xach: https://planet.lisp.org/meetings/
2020-11-16T21:25:41Z phoe: You could perhaps scrape the online-lisp-meetings group for calendar invitations in the attachments, and add them there
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2020-11-16T21:27:09Z Xach: phoe: oh!
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2020-11-16T21:55:49Z phoe: Has anyone tried hooking American Fuzzy Lop to fuzz Common Lisp applications?
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2020-11-16T23:20:47Z johnjay: what's a fuzz common lisp application? like fuzzing where you throw junk at a program's stdin?
2020-11-16T23:21:19Z Josh_2: I started making a socket fuzzer but after I had used it for the one purpose I needed it to server I quit working on it
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2020-11-16T23:21:40Z johnjay: emacs uses utf-8 by the way. i'm not sure how indenting works in it beyond the basic commands
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2020-11-16T23:22:51Z Josh_2: https://github.com/K1D77A/cl-fuzzer johnjay not sure if any fully functional fuzzers exist
2020-11-16T23:23:17Z johnjay: Josh_2: wait did you already ask your question in #emacs?
2020-11-16T23:23:21Z johnjay: your nick looks familiar
2020-11-16T23:23:24Z Josh_2: ye
2020-11-16T23:23:42Z johnjay: ah ok
2020-11-16T23:23:46Z Josh_2: I needed a monospace font, I have that now and It's all fixed :P
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2020-11-17T04:01:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-17T04:03:36Z oni-on-ion: hello sir
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2020-11-17T08:05:00Z flip214: is there some good reason why swank:eval-string-in-frame returns a string and not a normal (inspectable) result?
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2020-11-17T08:16:05Z beach: Good question.  Is there a good reason why calling PRINT from some program does not create a presentation, but only a dead sequence of characters?
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2020-11-17T08:47:28Z flip214: beach: I'm not sure whether you're sarcastic... I'd have expected an "EVAL-"something function in a system used for debugging to get me a debugable presentation
2020-11-17T08:48:12Z flip214: beach: and IIRC, doesn't CLIM or so have streams that make PRINT-OBJECT interactive?
2020-11-17T08:49:49Z no-defun-allowed: The HyperSpec suggests dispatching may not be a good idea by my reading. "In some implementations the stream argument passed to a print-object method is not the original stream, but is an intermediate stream that implements part of the printer. methods should therefore not depend on the identity of this stream."
2020-11-17T08:49:58Z beach: It wasn't sarcasm.  I just think the problem is very hard due to the implementations being unaware of presentations, and the fact that SLIME/Emacs are running in a different process.
2020-11-17T08:50:45Z beach: flip214: It is much easier to accomplish with CLIM since it is running in the same process.
2020-11-17T08:54:04Z beach: no-defun-allowed: It would be interesting to see how much McCLIM depends on it being the original stream.
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2020-11-17T08:59:08Z no-defun-allowed: Well, I would imagine it to be the original stream, but I recall, say, pprint-logical-block binds a pretty printing stream that wraps the original, so it may be useful to replace the stream.
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2020-11-17T08:59:45Z beach: Hmm, yes, I see.
2020-11-17T09:00:35Z flip214: I was surprised because if I evaluate some form via the REPL the result(s) are representations, so why not for EVAL-STRING-IN-FRAME?
2020-11-17T09:01:03Z no-defun-allowed: I would think that string is used to create the presentation you see.
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2020-11-17T09:07:22Z flip214: well, the string I get is "ok => NIL". for REPL results there's a whole tree, a mix of strings and references that are used to inspect them.
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2020-11-17T13:27:31Z Josh_2: afternoon
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2020-11-17T13:47:41Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-11-17T16:33:00Z Josh_2: With hunchentoot how do I define handlers without using define-easy-handler?
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2020-11-17T16:35:24Z hineios: Have you considered using one of the many routing libraries available?
2020-11-17T16:36:05Z hineios: I quite enjoy snooze where a route is a method.
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2020-11-17T16:41:16Z Josh_2: I just wanna create handlers without using a macro
2020-11-17T16:42:16Z Lycurgus: u checked hunchentools?
2020-11-17T16:43:09Z Lycurgus: also easy-acceptor seems not to need much to me
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2020-11-17T16:51:14Z flip214: Josh_2: you can just pass your own acceptor class to start-hunchentoot, IIRC
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2020-11-17T16:57:30Z _death: indeed, and hunchentoot:acceptor-dispatch-request
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2020-11-17T17:10:34Z dim: I like simple-routes (that I had to hack a little IIRC) as shown in use at https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/src/server.lisp
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2020-11-17T17:11:03Z dim: ah yeah the hacked version is at https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/blob/master/lib/simple-routes.lisp
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2020-11-17T17:12:17Z dim: and there's even the commit where I got rid of easy-acceptor, so Josh_2 that could be an example how-to for you: https://github.com/dimitri/pgcharts/commit/f791b6e7a01b69fb4ea15ccaa7275d46c922f667#diff-97eda46023f6867d17c327a8528e1b47810a90805f8b649b7600e426804799f7
2020-11-17T17:12:43Z Josh_2: why is it such a pain to just add a frickin handler for a url
2020-11-17T17:13:51Z Josh_2: simple-routes seems like it'll do the job
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2020-11-17T17:16:37Z dim: if you look into what I did for pgcharts, you will also find a “hack” that serves static files either from disk, or from memory in the image when you save-lisp-and-die, so that you can ship a single self-contained file with all your web resources embedded
2020-11-17T17:16:53Z _death: even with easy-acceptor it's easy to push a dispatcher to *dispatch-tables*
2020-11-17T17:17:09Z _death: (er, *dispatch-table*)
2020-11-17T17:17:11Z dim: it's always easy once you know how ;-)
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2020-11-17T17:22:27Z Josh_2: simple-routes worked
2020-11-17T17:22:30Z Josh_2: thanks for the helps folks
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2020-11-17T17:58:47Z phoe: okay, my priority queue now has a stable variant, too
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2020-11-17T18:51:22Z wglb: Running  SBCL 2.0.5.80-4ad1f6470-dirty on freebsd 12.1 release, attempting to load cl-webkit. It depends on libwebkit2gtk-4.0.so. Doing a 'pkg install webkit2-gtk3', it provides 'libwebkit2gtk-4.0.so.37.49.5', which lands in /usr/local/lib. Unclear if cl-ffi (which is what cl-webkit uses) looks there, so i did (pushnew #P "/usr/local/lib/" cffi:*foreign-library-directories*) before load, but we get 'Unable to load any of the
2020-11-17T18:51:23Z wglb: alternatives' the first of which is 'libwebkit2gtk-4.0.so'. Any ideas on how to resolve this would be appreciated.
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2020-11-17T19:09:49Z phoe: symlink
2020-11-17T19:09:58Z phoe: symlink libwebkit2gtk-4.0.so.37.49.5 to libwebkit2gtk-4.0.so
2020-11-17T19:10:04Z phoe: I suspect that this is what is required
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2020-11-17T19:16:30Z flip214: phoe: ldconfig should do that
2020-11-17T19:16:54Z flip214: so you don't need to do it manually
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2020-11-17T19:20:32Z daphnis_: what should i do if i would naturally call a slot 'case' or 'number'; just call them something else, or is there an idiom for this sort of situation?
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2020-11-17T19:21:22Z daphnis: oh, i was already here
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2020-11-17T19:23:05Z oni-on-ion: ohhh, sbcl has block compilation since 2.0.2 =)
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2020-11-17T19:31:50Z pve: daphnis: do you mean that your accessors are also called "case" and "number"? For slots it's not a problem..
2020-11-17T19:32:01Z daphnis: pve: yeah
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2020-11-17T19:34:04Z pve: if the package is small, you could just shadow.. otherwise maybe foo-case where foo is the name of the class
2020-11-17T19:34:13Z daphnis: i'm considering using words from a different language, but, if i do that, i'll have to do the same for a whole bunch of other variables
2020-11-17T19:35:25Z daphnis: or symbols rather
2020-11-17T19:38:35Z pve: i think foo-case is a natural way to disambiguate concepts, by making the word more specific than the common word ("case")
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2020-11-17T19:39:31Z daphnis: thanks
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2020-11-17T20:13:35Z Josh_2: okay
2020-11-17T20:13:45Z Josh_2: can someone explain what is going on here
2020-11-17T20:14:41Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2152#2152 I have this function
2020-11-17T20:15:05Z Josh_2: can someone explain to me why this (routep '(:get "abc" 'boof)) evaluates to nil and (routep (list :get "abc" 'boof)) evaluates to t ?
2020-11-17T20:15:16Z Josh_2: (at the repl)
2020-11-17T20:15:30Z mfiano: Because you are quoting boof
2020-11-17T20:15:40Z sjl: yeah
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2020-11-17T20:16:00Z sjl: you're passing it the list (:get "abc" (quote boof))
2020-11-17T20:16:03Z Josh_2: smoothbrain moment
2020-11-17T20:16:15Z Josh_2: thanks xD
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2020-11-17T21:10:17Z phoe: daphnis: shadow the symbols
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2020-11-17T21:38:42Z Josh_2: Well I ended up just making my own version of acceptor-dispatch-request
2020-11-17T21:39:03Z Josh_2: now I have the backbone for a 'yet-another-routing-library' :P
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2020-11-17T23:15:25Z phoe: I remember there was some CLOS book or article that demonstrated how to use a hash-table-backed instance, as opposed to standard, vector-backed instances. Does someone recall?
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2020-11-17T23:15:44Z Bike: isn't that in an AMOP appendix
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2020-11-17T23:21:57Z no-defun-allowed: AMOP does cover it...somewhere. I thought it was closer to the middle of the book though.
2020-11-17T23:23:13Z no-defun-allowed: 3.8 "Instance Allocation" covers creating a sparse "dynamic-slot-class" metaclass.
2020-11-17T23:24:58Z phoe: yes! that is what I am looking for
2020-11-17T23:24:59Z phoe: thank you
2020-11-17T23:32:12Z wglb:  phoe: the link you note is already there. It is if clffi is not looking in that directory. How do I cause it to look there?
2020-11-17T23:34:36Z phoe: wglb:
2020-11-17T23:34:39Z phoe: hm
2020-11-17T23:35:19Z phoe: sounds like cffi not playing well with freebsd libraries... you are sure that both SBCL and libwebkit are 64-bit?
2020-11-17T23:35:33Z phoe: asking just to rule out this corner case
2020-11-17T23:35:58Z phoe: I gotta crash asleep now; hope that someone else can answer that
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2020-11-18T00:29:12Z wglb: phoe: both are 64  bit.
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2020-11-18T03:50:09Z fwoaroof[m]: hi
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2020-11-18T04:09:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-18T08:06:56Z phoe: wglb: I'd try to debug it by first trying to call CFFI:LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY directly
2020-11-18T08:07:06Z phoe: and checking if this succeeds
2020-11-18T08:07:18Z phoe: if not, then checking the dlopen systace I guess
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2020-11-18T08:15:54Z fiddlerwoaroof[m: The best part of programming is how you can always make work to avoid the bits you don't want to do :)
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2020-11-18T08:18:06Z phoe: that's why "procrastinating" starts with a "pro"
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2020-11-18T08:26:12Z oni-on-ion: =)
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2020-11-18T10:13:34Z flip214: I've got a (DEFUN foo (.. &key a)), and in the same file later on a call to FOO - with a mistyped keyword argument.
2020-11-18T10:14:16Z flip214: I would have expected to get a compile error via ASDF, but it was silently successful... Do I need to change some parameter to get "better" checking?
2020-11-18T10:14:42Z flip214: I'm well aware that FOO could have been redefined before being called, but at least a warning or style-warning would be nice.
2020-11-18T10:17:19Z aeth: flip214: which implementation? I do get an error here in SBCL: (with-compilation-unit () (defun foo (&key a) a) (defun bar () (foo :b 42)))
2020-11-18T10:17:41Z scymtym: flip214: with SBCL i get a full warning for COMPILE-FILE and an error from ASDF for a file containing (defun foo (&key a))  (defun bar () (foo :b 2))
2020-11-18T10:18:28Z flip214: aeth: sbcl, but no compilation-unit used
2020-11-18T10:18:30Z scymtym: or do you mean that the value of the keyword argument is of the wrong type when you say "mistyped"?
2020-11-18T10:18:31Z aeth: (* warning, not error)
2020-11-18T10:18:41Z flip214: scymtym: that's what I want, yeah
2020-11-18T10:18:46Z aeth: flip214: compilation-unit will behave the same as a file compilation (so C-c C-k, not C-c C-c)
2020-11-18T10:18:57Z flip214: scymtym: the wrong keyword used, like aeth's example has
2020-11-18T10:19:31Z phoe: so a typo error, not a type error
2020-11-18T10:19:34Z aeth: I used with-compilation-unit so I could get the same effect as a file compilation, but in the REPL
2020-11-18T10:19:42Z scymtym: flip214: my example is like that as well and as i said, i get a full warning and ASDF error
2020-11-18T10:19:46Z aeth: (at least how SBCL treats it)
2020-11-18T10:19:57Z phoe: which SBCL and ASDF versions?
2020-11-18T10:20:24Z flip214: yeah, I wrote "mistyped"... that wasn't clear enough, sorry
2020-11-18T10:21:09Z flip214: sbcl 2.0.10+some git and asdf 3.3.1
2020-11-18T10:21:45Z phoe: flip214: https://i.imgur.com/MV1knjL.png
2020-11-18T10:21:48Z phoe: I get something like this
2020-11-18T10:21:52Z flip214: my script does a quickload and then dumps an image
2020-11-18T10:22:02Z phoe: this is after C-c C-k
2020-11-18T10:23:00Z flip214: with (ql:ql ... :verbose T) I can see some warnings
2020-11-18T10:27:49Z flip214: hmmm, even (asdf:operate ... :on-warnings :error) doesn't work as expected
2020-11-18T10:27:51Z scymtym: without :VERBOSE, quicklisp seems to muffle all warnings, not just style warnings. that is probably why the "outcome" changes
2020-11-18T10:29:02Z scymtym: flip214: did you change the source file or delete the FASL before trying the above? once the FASL is produced, no compilation is performed and the warning is not signaled again
2020-11-18T10:29:22Z flip214: scymtym: I'm writing the source file again (of course ;)
2020-11-18T10:29:46Z flip214: and the :verbose t output includes warnings, but the script doesn't stop with an error
2020-11-18T10:29:51Z scymtym: "touching" it in some way should be enough
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2020-11-18T10:34:20Z flip214: with an explicit error (ie. ":::" in a source file) compilation stops
2020-11-18T10:34:56Z scymtym: flip214: can you share the code? this seems to be more about the surrounding setup than SBCL or ASDF
2020-11-18T10:36:55Z flip214: well, the part I expect to error out is
2020-11-18T10:36:56Z flip214: (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :XXX :on-warnings :error :on-failure :error :verbose t)
2020-11-18T10:37:06Z phoe: :force t
2020-11-18T10:37:14Z phoe: otherwise it might just load the precompiled FASLs
2020-11-18T10:37:40Z flip214: I touched a file with warnings, and the file gets recompiled - I get the warnings during compilation
2020-11-18T10:37:43Z flip214: but it doesn't stop
2020-11-18T10:38:11Z flip214: :force doesn't help
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2020-11-18T10:43:21Z jackdaniel: are they maybe style warnings?
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2020-11-18T10:48:43Z phoe: jackdaniel: seem like full warnings
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2020-11-18T11:34:17Z flip214: either way ASDF should error out
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2020-11-18T12:00:10Z edgar-rft: I think typos are type-errors, too. But they happen at TYPE-TIME what is *before* READ-TIME. The spec doesn't seem to be very well-worded in that regard :-)
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2020-11-18T12:05:49Z davros_: r.e. lisp / AI / programs rewriting themselves:
2020-11-18T12:06:04Z davros_: how far did this all get ? are people still trying to do this?
2020-11-18T12:13:51Z edgar-rft: There are some success stories but also many projects we never heard of again. Maybe they accidentally deleted themselves :-)
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2020-11-18T12:18:54Z edgar-rft: davros_: I played for some time with Genetic Programming but it turned out that writing a working fitness function (the thing that decides if the generated code works better or worse than some other code) requires more detaIl knowlege than is needed for solving the problem youself.
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2020-11-18T12:20:46Z edgar-rft: It's in so far good that you learn a lot about different AI ideas and concepts but do not expect too much useful results :-)
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2020-11-18T12:54:42Z davros_: edgar-rft, i ask because elsewhere i'm talking to someone who has their own picture of how to do AGI and it involves code generation (although what they describe sounds even more far fetched), i asked them if they'd ever heard of lisp beign used for this sort of thing
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2020-11-18T13:00:30Z Josh_2: Afternoon all
2020-11-18T13:00:49Z flip214: edgar-rft: well, the fitness function for tic-tac-toe was easy enough
2020-11-18T13:01:29Z edgar-rft: yes. for *you*! :-)
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2020-11-18T13:10:31Z edgar-rft: davros_: you don't necessarily need Lisp for self-rewriting code, but in Lisp it's particularly easy because lists are first-class data objects, so everything for code generation is already built-in. Also Genetic Programming *can* give useful results, but often it depends on how lucky you are to find a useful result in tolerable time :-)
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2020-11-18T13:30:32Z davros_: yeah i know - any programming langauge can print source and spawn a compiler, or load dynamc modules or ahve an eval function.. but it's LISP's homoiconicity that's it's USP
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2020-11-18T13:34:26Z flip214: edgar-rft: well, self-*modifying* code is very easy on CPUs without any MMU... 6502, for example ;)
2020-11-18T13:34:55Z phoe: in today's environment, homoiconicity is just a shortcut; people work around this issue in other languages by operating on ASTs, or just printing out code into strings and reading it afterwards
2020-11-18T13:35:21Z phoe: structural macros are finding their way even into Python, you know
2020-11-18T13:35:32Z aorst: string based macros are way harder to manipulate though
2020-11-18T13:37:48Z flip214: aorst: well, one major point in Let-over-lambda was code-walking - "understanding" the language needs more than just a CONS-tree. (LET (let) (LET ((let let)) let))
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2020-11-18T13:45:55Z edgar-rft: as the Beatles sung: Let it be...
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2020-11-18T13:49:14Z tfb: phoe: there's a difference still: Lisp has a 'syntax of least commitment', Python (say) doesn't, anywhere near
2020-11-18T13:49:22Z phoe: yes\
2020-11-18T13:49:49Z phoe: as I said, people *work around* this issue; I did not say they *solve* it
2020-11-18T13:50:29Z tfb: yes, sorry was not disagreeing (also did not read you carefully enough...)
2020-11-18T13:50:41Z beach: And the workaround is painful.
2020-11-18T13:51:07Z phoe: ^
2020-11-18T13:51:24Z tfb: and the *common* workaround is still 'language in a string' and the death and horror of that
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2020-11-18T13:53:49Z edgar-rft: death and horror sounds nice :-)
2020-11-18T13:54:25Z flip214: we need a _horror for our _death
2020-11-18T13:56:47Z tfb: edgar-rft: setiously, in my most recent job the system was configured by, I think, two (perhaps three) layered m4-style macro languages, each treating the languages below it as strings.
2020-11-18T13:59:48Z splittist: everyone knows there is no problem in devops that can't be solved by another layer of yaml
2020-11-18T13:59:55Z edgar-rft: tfb: I'm sorry to hear the you're working with idiots :-)
2020-11-18T14:00:24Z edgar-rft: the=that
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2020-11-18T14:06:43Z tfb: edgar-rft: well, they weren't idiots, anywhere near.  I think that the ideas that make Lisp so interesting just are still not widely distributed.
2020-11-18T14:07:04Z tfb: On the other hand, the end of this whole process was FORTRAN, so ... well
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2020-11-18T20:48:59Z phoe: clhs eql
2020-11-18T20:48:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm
2020-11-18T20:49:06Z phoe: "eql may not be true of two floats even when they represent the same value. = is used to compare mathematical values."
2020-11-18T20:49:21Z phoe: how does that work?
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2020-11-18T20:50:19Z phoe: the notes seem to contradict point 2 of the description
2020-11-18T20:50:45Z _death: think +0.0 and -0.0
2020-11-18T20:51:13Z phoe: yes, that's the special case mentioned in the description
2020-11-18T20:51:27Z sjl: 1.0d0 and 1.0f0 represent the same value but might not be eql because they're different types (in SBCL)
2020-11-18T20:51:39Z phoe: I am thinking of numbers of the same type
2020-11-18T20:51:52Z phoe: maybe it's also the case with e.g. +0.0 and +0.0 with different exponents?
2020-11-18T20:53:00Z phoe: or two distinct NaNs?
2020-11-18T20:53:03Z phoe: I cannot thinking of other cases
2020-11-18T20:54:30Z _death: not sure what you're wonder about
2020-11-18T20:54:35Z _death: *wondering
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2020-11-18T20:54:55Z phoe: cases where this might apply in practice other than negative/positive zero
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2020-11-18T20:57:41Z mfiano: Well
2020-11-18T20:58:07Z phoe: s/thinking/thnik/
2020-11-18T20:58:11Z phoe: ...
2020-11-18T20:58:27Z mfiano: The standard doesn't adopt IEEE754, only recommends its use. They may have been implying that depending on the floating point encoding, it may not hold true, but = does. (eql 0f0 -0f0) ; => NIL, but (= 0f0 -0f0) ; => T
2020-11-18T20:58:33Z daphnis: how do you write a macro that accepts unquoted symbols and produces a function call with quoted symbols?  eg.: (mac a b c) --> (fun 'a 'b 'c)
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2020-11-18T20:59:00Z daphnis: with an arbitrary nr of args
2020-11-18T20:59:11Z no-defun-allowed: (defmacro mac (&rest rest) `(fun ,@(loop for symbol in rest collect (list 'quote rest))))
2020-11-18T20:59:46Z daphnis: no-defun-allowed: thanks!
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2020-11-18T21:03:48Z mfiano: alternatively, something like: (defmacro foo (sym &body body) `(,sym ,@(mapcar (lambda (x) `',x) body)))
2020-11-18T21:03:52Z mfiano: (untested)
2020-11-18T21:04:29Z Nilby: phoe: consider maybe an implementation that natively supported different float formats like maxima's bigfloat
2020-11-18T21:05:11Z phoe: Nilby: OK, I see
2020-11-18T21:05:49Z phoe: that would still be different float types though, wouldn't it?
2020-11-18T21:05:51Z _death: phoe: you can encode all pairs, sans a few large easy-to-demarcate portions of equivalence classes, of floats by bruteforce and try them
2020-11-18T21:05:56Z phoe: or you mean formats?
2020-11-18T21:06:04Z Nilby: I frequently wish there was such a thing.
2020-11-18T21:06:59Z Nilby: maybe I guess I mean the internal represntations, not exactly the format
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2020-11-18T21:08:40Z _death: Nilby: do you mean like clisp's variable precision long-floats, or sbcl's sb-mpfr?
2020-11-18T21:10:11Z mfiano: Always found CLISP's arbitrary precision floats strange, in regard to the constant value pi. IIRC, the manual even says that it is no longer a constant value, which seems wrong to me.
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2020-11-18T21:12:03Z _death: well, it's an approximation after all
2020-11-18T21:12:29Z mfiano: yes, but a constant approximation.
2020-11-18T21:12:54Z Nilby: _death: Yes, but I'm not that pleased with clisp anymore, and I haven't used sb-mpfr because I worry about implementation in C and possible overhead.
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2020-11-18T21:15:03Z Nilby: I know gmp is widely used and well tested, so I probably should get over it.
2020-11-18T21:16:31Z daphnis: mfiano: oh, that's nice.
2020-11-18T21:17:06Z _death: I never found actual use for them.. for floating point, I'm fine with single and double precision.. and sometimes I need to move to a fixed point or maintain my own scaling or use rationals (slow..) or logarithms solve the issue.. but not arbitrary precision floats
2020-11-18T21:21:50Z Nilby: I love how close to mathematically correct Lisp math is relative to other languages, but it starts getting corrupt with floating point error. I've be gravely injured before (in virtual realites) by floating point error.
2020-11-18T21:23:47Z moon-child: I like ball arithmetic
2020-11-18T21:23:51Z moon-child: iirc nars2000 apl uses it
2020-11-18T21:24:33Z _death: Nilby: I love it too, but computation is its own field, and in this field modular arithmetic and floating point have advantages as well
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2020-11-18T23:11:08Z jasom: Is there a macro for tracing all functions named by external symbols of a package?
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2020-11-18T23:16:07Z pillton: What do you mean by tracing?
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2020-11-18T23:19:58Z scymtym: jasom: (trace "PACKAGE-NAME-AS-STRING") does that
2020-11-18T23:20:31Z jasom: scymtym: so it does, thanks!
2020-11-18T23:22:27Z scymtym: sure. though i now realize that behavior is not in the standard
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2020-11-18T23:23:07Z jasom: scymtym: well it's good enough to let me keep debugging
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2020-11-19T10:44:32Z phoe: !
2020-11-19T10:44:55Z phoe: https://github.com/jrm-code-project/LISP-Machine seems like a trove of valuable source code
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2020-11-19T11:11:05Z tfb: phoe: thanks for finding that!
2020-11-19T11:11:47Z phoe: tfb: thank the person from hacker news that posted it there
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2020-11-19T11:38:50Z gendl: phoe: i don't see any license on any of that LISP Machine code
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2020-11-19T11:40:58Z gendl: Oh that's Joe Marshall! I miss him! (does he ever hang around in here?)
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2020-11-19T11:45:03Z phoe: gendl: neither see I
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2020-11-19T11:47:47Z daphnis: what's the purpose of #'(lambda ..? doesn't (lambda .. already return a function?
2020-11-19T11:47:59Z phoe: not directly
2020-11-19T11:48:07Z phoe: (lambda ...) is a macro that expands into #'(lambda ...)
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2020-11-19T11:48:41Z phoe: the non-#' form is preferable to use because some places in Lisp code do not accept the #' form
2020-11-19T11:49:21Z jackdaniel: could you elaborate about these places taht do not accept (function …) ?
2020-11-19T11:50:00Z jackdaniel: s/taht/that/
2020-11-19T11:50:10Z phoe: I recall restart-case off the top of my head
2020-11-19T11:50:25Z daphnis: what about the (lambda .. in #'(lambda ..?  i take it that can't be the macro?
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2020-11-19T11:51:19Z phoe: daphnis: it is not macroexpanded again because the FUNCTION special operator, here hidden behind the #' reader macro, treats LAMBDA expressions speially
2020-11-19T11:51:50Z phoe: when you write (function (lambda ...)) then the LAMBDA expression is not evaluated or macroexpanded
2020-11-19T11:52:11Z daphnis: to /that/ (lambda is a special form or something?
2020-11-19T11:52:33Z phoe: to /what/ exactly?
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2020-11-19T11:53:06Z phoe: the symbol LAMBDA itself names a macro, but lambda expressions have special meaning in two contexts
2020-11-19T11:53:35Z phoe: first context, you can evaluate ((lambda (x) (* x x)) 3) where the lambda expression is the first element of that list
2020-11-19T11:53:45Z phoe: that's a valid function call in Lisp, the above returns 9
2020-11-19T11:53:47Z daphnis: oh, so the lamdba symbol is something that the function operator understands
2020-11-19T11:53:51Z phoe: yes - exactly
2020-11-19T11:54:12Z daphnis: thanks
2020-11-19T11:54:27Z jackdaniel: I think that these "cases" fall in the same category when you pass multiple-value-list instead of #'multiple-value-list to some macros
2020-11-19T11:54:32Z phoe: the second context, it is understood in its own unique way by the special operator FUNCTION and the function COERCE when you try to coerce a lambda expression to a function object
2020-11-19T11:54:40Z jackdaniel: (i.e not a good candidate as a "general rule for lambda")
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2020-11-19T11:55:43Z phoe: jackdaniel: my approach is that if you generally write (lambda ...) you get stung 0% of the time, whereas if you generally write #'(lambda ...) then you get stung >0% of the time
2020-11-19T11:56:16Z jackdaniel: if you treat (lambda …) as any other function, then you don't need to make mental exceptions
2020-11-19T11:56:24Z phoe: so if I want to focus on more important tasks than remebering which variant to use, then I can safely always write (lambda ...)
2020-11-19T11:56:27Z phoe: yes
2020-11-19T11:56:36Z phoe: hence, I don't do #'(lambda ...)
2020-11-19T11:56:43Z jackdaniel: you don't use #'list either?
2020-11-19T11:57:18Z edgar-rft does not #'listen
2020-11-19T11:57:20Z phoe: hey wait a second, the symbol list doesn't expand to #'list
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2020-11-19T11:57:35Z phoe: so we're comparing apples and oranges here
2020-11-19T11:57:36Z jackdaniel: that's a mental exception
2020-11-19T11:57:51Z phoe shrug
2020-11-19T11:57:57Z jackdaniel: that the symbol list doesn't expand to something
2020-11-19T11:58:37Z jackdaniel: my point is that if you treat (lambda …) as any other function, then you put #' where you put #' before the symbol, and you're not putting it when you are not putting it before a symbol
2020-11-19T11:59:06Z phoe: I see
2020-11-19T11:59:22Z phoe: I think I understand this point of view now
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2020-11-19T13:44:17Z iarebatman: I'm about to pitch using common lisp to my boss. I plan to demo the whole code is data and data is code concept, with the emphasis on the fact that once you can manipulate lists - your knowledge is applicable in many situations (akin to how SQL has a 'standard way' of manipulating data sets).. I also plan to demo the magic of hot-swapping functions while an application is running because that always seems magical..   Does a
2020-11-19T13:44:17Z iarebatman: any other recommendations of features/demos that would appeal to a technically-savvy boss that I show off ?
2020-11-19T13:44:52Z iarebatman: s/show off/can show off/
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2020-11-19T13:46:17Z aorst: error handling?
2020-11-19T13:47:38Z jackdaniel: remote code execution ;-)
2020-11-19T13:47:45Z phoe: debugger-oriented programming
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2020-11-19T13:48:55Z phoe: play with the REPL while the debugger is still up and while the error was still not handled
2020-11-19T13:49:18Z phoe: bonus points if you fix the error in the REPL while the debugger is still up and then you just hit that CONTINUE or RETRY restart and things work
2020-11-19T13:50:01Z iarebatman: I like that one.  I'll add a step in my demo to 'break' the program while it's running before I hot-swap the function
2020-11-19T13:50:40Z jackdaniel: don't forget to declaim it notinline
2020-11-19T13:50:45Z phoe: ^
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2020-11-19T13:52:57Z beach: iarebatman: I don't know your situation, but don't expect your efforts to pay off.
2020-11-19T13:54:10Z phoe: beach: come on, people are actually putting in effort to promote Lisp
2020-11-19T13:54:39Z jackdaniel: he is Batman, I'd be surprised if there were no results :)
2020-11-19T13:54:43Z phoe: I know you're pretty disenchanted when it comes to the industry and I kinda share the feeling, but IMO it doesn't make these lispy attempts futile or unworthy in general
2020-11-19T13:55:09Z Josh_2: iarebatman: good luck!
2020-11-19T13:55:18Z beach: iarebatman: Also, if it *does* work, you will have a huge responsibility to make sure Common Lisp is a success where you work.
2020-11-19T13:55:56Z Josh_2: well that could be good or bad ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-11-19T13:56:10Z beach: phoe: I didn't say that.  Just that there are strong forces against changes like that, so iarebatman should not be disappointed if it doesn't work.
2020-11-19T13:56:37Z Josh_2: if it doesn't work iarebatman can wait until he is the boss :P
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2020-11-19T13:57:41Z beach: iarebatman: When I worked in industry (briefly), the way I did it was to show real results even before even mentioning the word "Lisp".
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2020-11-19T13:58:41Z iarebatman: beach: Yeah no worries, I'm not expecting him to fall over himself to let me use lisp or anything.
2020-11-19T13:59:40Z iarebatman: We just went through a rather large and painful project where we used the wrong tool for the job - so I think I have an opening to at least have him hear me out though.
2020-11-19T14:01:08Z Xach: I had some success when I was able to prototype a working solution in the time allocated to simply do some research into options.
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2020-11-19T14:02:19Z Xach: The ability to do that varies a lot depending on the domain.
2020-11-19T14:02:32Z beach: iarebatman: Good luck.  Like they say, it is easier to get forgiveness afterwards than permission beforehand.
2020-11-19T14:02:38Z Xach: If there is a library to do it already in npm or pip or something, it's a harder sell.
2020-11-19T14:03:00Z iarebatman: Yeah - there's a decent chance I'll be able to get some time for experimentation.
2020-11-19T14:07:20Z beach: iarebatman: The other advantage of not asking beforehand is that, since you never were refused permission, it is OK to actually use it, but if you ask and permission is refused, using it anyway would be to disobey.
2020-11-19T14:07:31Z phoe: ^
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2020-11-19T14:25:16Z iarebatman: eh, I understand the concept - but that's not what I'm going to do.  It's not my intention to put the company in a bad spot just because I want to do something.  I like my job and am friends with my boss (have been for 10+ years) - so I won't try to go behind his back like that.
2020-11-19T14:26:16Z iarebatman: I've got a good pitch and a decent demo - hopefully that'll sell it enough for an experiment
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2020-11-19T14:30:28Z beach: iarebatman: Sounds good.  Again, good luck.  Let us know how it goes.
2020-11-19T14:31:37Z Josh_2: ^
2020-11-19T14:32:10Z iarebatman: will do
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2020-11-19T14:34:57Z beach: iarebatman: Can we assume that you know that Common Lisp is not an "interpreted language" and that automatic memory management is not slower than manual memory management.  And of course that automatic memory management is a prerequisite for modularity?
2020-11-19T14:35:14Z beach: But maybe you are already using a language with automatic memory management?
2020-11-19T14:37:07Z iarebatman: beach: Thanks for checking.  We're mainly a SQL Server and C# shop at the moment, so pitching that aspect wouldn't really come across as an 'improvement' if you know what I mean.
2020-11-19T14:37:20Z beach: Got it.
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2020-11-19T14:38:55Z beach: Then, instead, you might talk about the confusion between representation and encapsulation in languages like C#.  With CLOS, encapsulation is handled an orthogonal mechanism called "packages", which makes the entire thing more flexible.
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2020-11-19T14:39:48Z iarebatman: A couple of questions that I would like to have ready answers for are: How hard is it to deploy and keep a CL app up-to-date on internal employee computers?  As well as: How can we take advantage of the fact that we can hot-patch systems in production to reduce down-time during updates?
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2020-11-19T14:42:54Z iarebatman: To be honest, CLOS is something I need to obtain more experience with myself - so I can't talk about it with confidence yet.  My demo consists of showing me bring in the same dataset with json, csv, xml, excel, and from a database - all to demonstrate they all are lists.  Then at the end, I show that these lists of data can be evaluated as code as well.  During that whole talk, I plan to go into detail how in c# I'd have to
2020-11-19T14:42:54Z iarebatman: several classes to represent the given data - I think that'll come across OK.
2020-11-19T14:44:09Z phoe: re employee computers: you can piggyback on top of Quicklisp and compile-and-load your applications from source on employee machines
2020-11-19T14:44:51Z phoe: if you create your own internal quicklisp dist, then people can do (ql:update-all-dists) to fetch the newest sources
2020-11-19T14:45:16Z phoe: or you can distribute ready executable binaries just like you would do for many other languages
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2020-11-19T14:46:38Z iarebatman: internal quicklisp is an interesting idea - hadn't thought of that
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2020-11-19T14:47:21Z pve: iarebatman: I also think CL for quick prototyping and exploring data and databases in the REPL is the way to go.
2020-11-19T14:47:21Z phoe: as for hotpatching, if you know which forms to send to your live images to evaluate then you send them and they're in the image, working - zero downtime in the happiest case, minimal downtime when you pause the application for the duration of patching
2020-11-19T14:47:28Z phoe: I'll also do a shameless plug - see https://github.com/Apress/common-lisp-condition-system/raw/master/Appendix%20E/Appendix%20E.pdf for some examples that involve the CL condition system and live debugging
2020-11-19T14:47:51Z phoe: (and see the whole book for a description of how that is done in CL, hint hint)
2020-11-19T14:48:08Z iarebatman: lol, noted - thank you
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2020-11-19T14:53:58Z pve: iarebatman: it is probably an easier sell if you present CL as an interactive data exploration tool to be used alongside whatever else you're using, as opposed to saying "let's replace C# with CL"
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2020-11-19T14:57:48Z daphnis: what's the best way to avoid having to confirm the redefinition of every single constant when reevaluating something in sbcl/slime?
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2020-11-19T15:03:28Z beach: daphnis: You should not redefine constants.
2020-11-19T15:05:07Z jackdaniel: daphnis: if you want parameters, then replace all defconstant operators with defparameter
2020-11-19T15:05:22Z jackdaniel: then you won't have to confirm the redefinition
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2020-11-19T15:08:56Z daphnis: well, the values don't normally need to change, but it's impossible to reevaluate the buffer without reevaluating the defconstants too.  but i've just been assuming that values that normally don't change should be defined as constants, maybe that's wrong.
2020-11-19T15:09:44Z beach: daphnis: DEFCONSTANT is practical only for object that can be compared with EQL.
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2020-11-19T15:10:22Z jackdaniel: daphnis: constants may be inlined in functions, that's why redefining them may /not/ achieve what you want
2020-11-19T15:10:31Z jackdaniel: what you could do is to unintern symbols first
2020-11-19T15:10:37Z beach: daphnis: If you use DEFCONSTANT with (say) the value of (LIST...) then the value will be different each time you evaluate the DEFCONSTANT form, so it is not really constant.
2020-11-19T15:10:40Z jackdaniel: and then you could recompile the buffer (new symbols will be introduced)
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2020-11-19T15:15:45Z daphnis: thanks.  i'll just use defparameter then until the need for defconstant becomes apparent.
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2020-11-19T15:32:55Z phoe: beach: ALEXANDRIA:DEFINE-CONSTANT fixes this
2020-11-19T15:33:53Z phoe: you can (alexandria:define-constant +foo+ "bar" :test #'string=) multiple times and it won't trigger warnings or errors
2020-11-19T15:36:37Z jackdaniel: phoe: the reason why defconstant does not allow reevaluating constants that are not eql is to preserve identity between fasls and the image
2020-11-19T15:37:09Z Bike: the concept of define-constant in my view is for when you want to define a constant but don't care about identity, just some looser measure
2020-11-19T15:37:14Z Bike: and it does that fine
2020-11-19T15:38:23Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, and A:DEFINE-CONSTANT does not try to work around this; it simply makes it possible to compile-and-load a file multiple times without invoking UB and/or redefinition errors
2020-11-19T15:38:27Z phoe: so, pure convenience
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2020-11-19T16:50:02Z lotuseater: Hi there :)  Has anyone of you already read the new book "Programming Algorithms" written by Vsevolod Domkin? I ordered it from him directly last week but it takes a few weeks to be shipped to Germany.
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2020-11-19T17:04:37Z beach: lotuseater: I read a draft of it, but not the final version.
2020-11-19T17:04:46Z beach: lotuseater: Why do you ask?
2020-11-19T17:06:19Z lotuseater: Just to hear opinions. :)  Could be a good completion to the content of the ~15 other main CL books.
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2020-11-19T17:07:50Z beach: Sure.
2020-11-19T17:08:21Z beach: I had several problems with the draft, but I think those were addressed before it got published.
2020-11-19T17:09:31Z Josh_2: lotuseater: I own a physical copy but I have not read it
2020-11-19T17:09:38Z Josh_2: I have skimmed various sections
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2020-11-19T17:10:39Z lotuseater: okay, I would read and work with it over the holidays, so can give my opinion to you
2020-11-19T17:11:18Z beach: Sounds good.
2020-11-19T17:13:14Z lotuseater: It's good CL has few books but also the most are very good.
2020-11-19T17:13:34Z Josh_2: Well Imo It's more of a pick up when you need it kind of book
2020-11-19T17:13:38Z Josh_2: because It's a book on algorithms
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2020-11-19T17:15:11Z lotuseater: yes and that fills a niche
2020-11-19T17:15:13Z mfiano: I skimmed the first version, before it was picked up by Apress and was available for free, and I thought that it was very lacking and full of misinformation in regard to the actual algorithms discussed. But, maybe that has changed.
2020-11-19T17:15:39Z lotuseater: At Apress it will be available in April 2021, am I right?
2020-11-19T17:16:14Z lotuseater: Okay I'll see. Not my first book on CL or Algos :)
2020-11-19T17:17:23Z Josh_2: Apress are pretty good us
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2020-11-19T17:17:29Z Josh_2: picking up all the Lisp books
2020-11-19T17:18:02Z edgar-rft: lotuseater: same here, book orderd but "please wait..."
2020-11-19T17:18:17Z lotuseater: Yes in October there came "CL Condition System", also some aspect which is needed to known more.
2020-11-19T17:19:00Z lotuseater: edgar-rft I have the root follow for it, but still in Ukraine
2020-11-19T17:19:59Z mfiano: phoe did an excellent service to the community with that book. The condition system is incredibly powerful, and far under-used, probably due to the lack of good resources on the topic. I'm glad the book is giving it some deserved recognition.
2020-11-19T17:20:00Z lotuseater: All other I just have in PDF.
2020-11-19T17:20:34Z edgar-rft: lotuseater: I do net even get a date *when* it will be available, to me it smells as if they first want enough orders before even start printing
2020-11-19T17:21:06Z lotuseater: But I ordered an already printed book from Mr Domkin himself.
2020-11-19T17:21:10Z Josh_2: mfiano++
2020-11-19T17:21:55Z edgar-rft: ah, I did it the wrong way :-) I ordered via my faourite book store
2020-11-19T17:21:57Z lotuseater: mfiano you're right. just looking at the special operator unwind-protect, awesome
2020-11-19T17:22:43Z lotuseater: edgar-rft I would order all other via zvab.com or so, but so much money ...
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2020-11-19T18:59:28Z iarebatman: Sorry for the delay - the pitch went pretty well.  I have a tentative OK to go ahead and explore using CL where I see fit. His one concern was that he didn't want us to end up with 18 technology stacks, so he said if we go this route that I better not want to change languages again 6 months later.
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2020-11-19T19:00:29Z shka_: iarebatman: you should said "CL for life baby"
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2020-11-19T19:01:25Z phoe: edgar-rft: you mean progalgs on Apress?
2020-11-19T19:01:37Z phoe: it is still in the process of being done - there is no concrete release date yet
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2020-11-19T19:02:39Z phoe: apress cannot commit to a release date before the text of the book is finalized - and I have to admit and apologize, I am still doing the last bits of technical review upon it
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2020-11-19T19:02:50Z phoe: so, in this concrete case, please feel free to blame me for the delay
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2020-11-19T19:19:45Z edgar-rft: phoe:  yes, but I'm not in hurry. There are some folks running a book store here who are nearly broke, I want them to make some money.
2020-11-19T19:20:03Z phoe: yes, I see
2020-11-19T19:21:48Z edgar-rft: I'll just give them the money now and the bokk will come when it's finished.
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2020-11-19T19:45:09Z ABQ: HI
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2020-11-19T19:55:02Z YourNick: Invalid password for katsmeow
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2020-11-19T19:55:55Z YourNick: I AM GETTING THE ABOVE INFORMATION WHEN I TRY TO IDENTIFY IN NICKSERV
2020-11-19T19:56:49Z no-defun-allowed: YOUR TELETYPE IS BROKEN. GET A NEW ONE.
2020-11-19T19:57:39Z YourNick: HOW AM I ABLE TO TYPE "HELLO" THEN
2020-11-19T19:58:35Z no-defun-allowed: IT'S JUST NOT THAT BROKEN, ALSO #FREENODE MIGHT BE MORE HELPFUL IN THIS SITUATION
2020-11-19T19:59:05Z Nilby: stty -olcuc
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2020-11-19T20:00:40Z YourNick: OH THANKS
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2020-11-19T20:38:59Z phoe: oh well
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2020-11-19T21:15:20Z jasom: Just because it's been a while since I used defclass in anger; init-forms cannot depend on initializer arguments directly, correct?  So the only way to get fancy with initializing some slots based upon parameters from other slots is an :around method for one of the initialization generic functions, right?
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2020-11-19T21:18:33Z no-defun-allowed: Usually you see :after methods for initialize-instance, but yes.
2020-11-19T21:19:08Z jasom: I try to stick to :around rather than :after, but yes same idea
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2020-11-19T21:22:41Z no-defun-allowed: Most code I've read does the opposite. Do you find yourself replacing initargs frequently?
2020-11-19T21:23:22Z jasom: no-defun-allowed: it's one of the main reason I might use defclass rather than defstruct
2020-11-19T21:24:54Z coyo: (defun fun () "Define fun." (slime))
2020-11-19T21:25:21Z lotuseater: jasom could you give a simple example so I can fully understand your question? but sounds interesting
2020-11-19T21:25:57Z lotuseater: I use defstruct the most if no inheritance (or just simple) is needed, makes objects and everything lightweight
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2020-11-19T21:26:40Z no-defun-allowed: Well, you can always (defmethod initialize-instance ((object <class-name>) &key some-initarg) ...) to get at the initarg, or use the relevant accessor as the primary method for initialize-instance puts initargs and initforms in their slots.
2020-11-19T21:27:15Z jasom: no-defun-allowed: right, that's what I am doing.  Just wanted to make sure there wasn't a better way
2020-11-19T21:27:30Z no-defun-allowed: Oops, initialize-instance :after
2020-11-19T21:30:18Z jasom: It would be less code and more declarative if I could specify initialization forms as functions of initialization arguments inside the defclass itself.
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2020-11-19T21:33:40Z lotuseater: so wouldn't it be possible to do this with another defclass macro?
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2020-11-19T21:54:35Z jasom: it would, but it's not yet painful enough for me to write one
2020-11-19T21:55:37Z Bike: if a parameter used by an initform wasn't provided, would you expect an unbound variable error, or for it to default to nil?
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2020-11-19T21:56:45Z jmercouris: I would expect an unbound variable error
2020-11-19T21:56:54Z jmercouris: I would prefer it to default to nil
2020-11-19T21:57:25Z Bike: also, would the variable name be the slot name, or could use use an initarg
2020-11-19T21:57:56Z jasom: Bike: I would expect it to be like an initarg, and if I needed it to always be bound, I could use :default-initarg
2020-11-19T21:58:45Z Bike: i don't know what "like an initarg" means. if an initarg isn't provided, a slot's value is unbound, but it doesn't signal an error. what does that mean for a variable?
2020-11-19T21:58:57Z Bike: (well, if an initarg is not provided and there's no initform and etc)
2020-11-19T21:58:59Z jmercouris: that means it doesn't matter if it is unbound
2020-11-19T21:59:08Z jasom: If the initarg isn't provided then the variable is unbound
2020-11-19T21:59:15Z jasom: unless of course there is a default-initarg
2020-11-19T21:59:23Z jmercouris: it could also be bound during initialize-instance
2020-11-19T21:59:26Z jmercouris: think about computed values
2020-11-19T22:00:25Z Bike: what would the slot initfunction be? would it take parameters or would it somehow be a closure? or would there just be no initfunction?
2020-11-19T22:00:56Z Bike: i'm not asking these as gotchas or anything. people talk about wanting this a fair bit and i'm wondering how the machinery could be set up.
2020-11-19T22:01:13Z jmercouris: I actually am not really sure what you are getting at really
2020-11-19T22:01:19Z jmercouris: what are you trying to design? features for clasp?
2020-11-19T22:01:31Z Bike: i'm just wondering how this could be implemented
2020-11-19T22:01:37Z Bike: these are the kinds of questions i'd have to ask to do so
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2020-11-19T22:06:57Z jmercouris: Bike: what is a slot initfunction? a function that initializes the value of a slot?
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2020-11-19T22:07:51Z Bike: when CLOS gets a slot with an initform, it saves the form, but also saves an initfunction, which is just (lambda () ...form...)
2020-11-19T22:07:58Z Bike: and when it needs to initialize a slot, it calls that function
2020-11-19T22:08:03Z Bike: (rather than e.g. eval-ing the initform itself)
2020-11-19T22:08:17Z jmercouris: why?
2020-11-19T22:08:45Z Bike: it's faster, and also it allows (let (...) (defclass ...)) to work like you'd expect it to
2020-11-19T22:08:59Z jmercouris: what I always have done in the past is provide an initform that is a lambda, should I have been providing initfunctions?
2020-11-19T22:09:10Z jmercouris: or is it internal to CLOS and I should not really be messing with it?
2020-11-19T22:09:45Z Bike: well, it's part of MOP, but you don't really provide initfunctions directly, no. I'm not sure what you mean by providing an initform that's a function. that just means the slot is bound to a function, not that the function is called to produce the slot's initial value.
2020-11-19T22:09:58Z jmercouris: oh OK
2020-11-19T22:10:04Z jmercouris: I see now
2020-11-19T22:10:22Z jmercouris: I meant something like ':initform (some-function-call)'
2020-11-19T22:10:44Z jmercouris: or a funcall'd lambda for some other details
2020-11-19T22:10:49Z Bike: oh, i see. in that case i guess :initfunction #'some-function-call would hypothetically make sense
2020-11-19T22:10:50Z jmercouris: perhaps it is sacrilege...
2020-11-19T22:11:27Z Bike: (except i don't think it would evaluate correctly? i don't know)
2020-11-19T22:11:31Z _death: the defmodel macro in cells defines accessors with the instance name "self" and ^reader macros that expand to (reader self) and can be used in initforms.. but I don't think something like this is necessary
2020-11-19T22:12:40Z phoe: Bike: huh?
2020-11-19T22:12:44Z phoe: (defun make-foo () (list 1 2 3)) (defclass bar () ((slot :initform (make-foo)))) (slot-value (make-instance 'bar) 'slot) ;=> (1 2 3)
2020-11-19T22:12:55Z phoe: :initform is used to construct an initfunction, internally
2020-11-19T22:13:06Z Bike: i don't understand what you are reacting to
2020-11-19T22:13:14Z Bike: is that not what i said?
2020-11-19T22:13:16Z jmercouris: I don't get it either
2020-11-19T22:13:22Z jmercouris: I believe that is what mr Bicycle said
2020-11-19T22:13:36Z phoe: oh, yes
2020-11-19T22:13:39Z jmercouris: there is something about the name "Mr Bicycle" that just makes me smile, it is funny :-)
2020-11-19T22:13:44Z phoe: I got confused with :initfunction #'some-function-call
2020-11-19T22:13:48Z jmercouris: I imagine a friendly guy on some bicycle or so
2020-11-19T22:14:58Z White_Flame: I imagine some bikeshedding goes on here
2020-11-19T22:15:07Z mfiano: Reminds me of his alt nick I haven't seen in a while (maybe even some years)
2020-11-19T22:15:17Z phoe: Bicyclidine?
2020-11-19T22:15:20Z mfiano: Yeah
2020-11-19T22:15:29Z lotuseater: or imagine a picture with lisp alien riding a lambda bike
2020-11-19T22:15:41Z Bike: Bicyclidine: Technically Legal To Ingest™
2020-11-19T22:16:11Z phoe: whenever I remember that nickname I get reminded that he's working with drmeister, and that's the kind of drug that he synthesizes with cando in order to produce chemical lisp bikes for proteins to ride on
2020-11-19T22:16:16Z phoe: creepy stuff if you ask me
2020-11-19T22:16:25Z mfiano: ha
2020-11-19T22:17:37Z Bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-uuk4Pr2i8 me irl
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2020-11-19T22:18:49Z phoe: Bike: exactly what I imagined
2020-11-19T22:19:15Z jmercouris: those structures are so fascinating
2020-11-19T22:19:47Z phoe: (defstruct molecular-bike ...)
2020-11-19T22:19:58Z lotuseater: yeah and the simulation very impressive
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2020-11-19T22:23:13Z jasom: Bike: right not an around intiialize-instance that bound the initargs to a special would probably be sufficient for my needs, then I could getf or destructuring bind to get the arguments I want
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2020-11-19T22:23:54Z jasom: Ultimately the intializer maps a set of arguments to an initialized class
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2020-11-19T22:24:25Z Bike: the way you can have multiple initargs for the same slot makes destructuring-bind difficult
2020-11-19T22:28:34Z jasom: getf then
2020-11-19T22:29:11Z Bike: yeah
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2020-11-19T22:43:03Z lotuseater: I hope some day I will understand how clasp and cando or the qvm by rigetti really work. but there is so much more great stuff out in the wilds or waits to be crafted
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2020-11-19T22:49:07Z Xach: qvm isn't too hard to follow. quilc is the tricky one.
2020-11-19T22:50:31Z lotuseater: oh okay good to know :)  or the math which is needed for quantum computing :D
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2020-11-19T22:58:27Z Bike: clasp is just a lisp implementation, so the hard to understand things are just normal stuff like CLOS initialization
2020-11-19T22:58:31Z Bike: all the chemistry is in cando
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2020-11-19T23:01:01Z lotuseater: Bike yes I know that :)  like SICL by Robert Strandh
2020-11-19T23:02:49Z lotuseater: but those are the kinds of stuff I tell about if blub people ask me what you can even do with those s-expressions
2020-11-19T23:05:13Z lotuseater: oh there's also a lot of mathematica code in cando
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2020-11-19T23:05:36Z jmercouris: MATHEMATICA? is that really performant enough?
2020-11-19T23:05:59Z jmercouris: my experience with mathematica was quite slow... maybe it was the hardware I was on
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2020-11-19T23:07:11Z jasom: jmercouris: but of course mathematica has a lot baked in, like the famous goat code-golf
2020-11-19T23:07:31Z lotuseater: once upon a time (a few years ago before I got fully into lisp and haskell) i thought the symbolic math is so powerful. but now i see it kind of low
2020-11-19T23:07:56Z lotuseater: jmercouris the cando github repo says so
2020-11-19T23:08:15Z jasom: lotuseater: can't always trust github statistics, they are file-extension based IIRC
2020-11-19T23:08:50Z lotuseater: okay, i look on that statistic to get a feeling
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2020-11-19T23:09:23Z jasom: I don't know what the mathematica extension is, but if it's e.g. ".m" then one might get a lot of falsely identified mathematica files.
2020-11-19T23:09:45Z lotuseater: hehe
2020-11-19T23:11:00Z lotuseater: but the continuity and the system as a hole is great
2020-11-19T23:13:18Z lotuseater: i mean mathematica compared with e.g. maxima
2020-11-19T23:13:34Z phoe: jasom: actually they are not
2020-11-19T23:13:54Z phoe: https://github.com/github/linguist is more complex than that
2020-11-19T23:14:33Z no-defun-allowed: If you have a file with enough define-conditions, it'll decide your Lisp code is NewLisp code.
2020-11-19T23:15:37Z jasom: phoe: oh that's nice.  I last checked this almost 10 years ago, so it's probably much improved
2020-11-19T23:16:50Z phoe: yes; you can see the rough details in the README
2020-11-19T23:16:55Z lotuseater: and github also shows org files
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2020-11-20T04:06:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-20T05:54:40Z Usersda: Hello. I had a question about lisp i was wondering what you a ll thought.
2020-11-20T05:54:52Z beach: Go right ahead.
2020-11-20T05:55:10Z Usersda: Why can't lisp be used the HTML and css are used to design webpages
2020-11-20T05:55:19Z Usersda: *the way*
2020-11-20T05:56:56Z beach: Do you mean "why is it theoretically impossible?", or "why is the world currently set up so that it can't?"
2020-11-20T05:57:03Z Usersda: 2
2020-11-20T05:57:46Z beach: As I understand it, it can.  But I am not very good with web stuff, so I'll let someone else answer that.
2020-11-20T05:58:22Z Usersda: theoretically a server could be set up to parse a lisp convention/dialect the way it interprets html, no ?
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2020-11-20T05:59:14Z beach: Usersda: Isn't that basically what we do in things like Hunchentoot?
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2020-11-20T06:01:42Z Usersda: hmmm
2020-11-20T06:02:11Z beach: Again, web stuff is not my thing, so I may be misunderstanding your question.
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2020-11-20T06:04:19Z Usersda: I think hunchentoot is halfway to what i mean.
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2020-11-20T06:05:30Z Usersda: I haven't seen any websites built with it.
2020-11-20T06:05:51Z beach: What does Tymoon use?
2020-11-20T06:05:53Z no-defun-allowed: It wouldn't be the Web then.
2020-11-20T06:06:34Z no-defun-allowed: I think Tymoon uses a HTML-lookalike templater, which you can put embedded Lisp forms in. At least the plaster tool did when I modified it.
2020-11-20T06:07:38Z beach: Oh, good.  Someone more knowledgeable than myself can provide more information.
2020-11-20T06:08:15Z no-defun-allowed: You can generate HTML, CSS and JavaScript from Lisp macros, and I've used some libraries for those a few times before.
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2020-11-20T06:16:01Z Usersda: can you give me an example ?
2020-11-20T06:17:35Z Usersda: what i mean is, why does firefox for example interpret html, but any number of browsers can't read a lisp file. can't lisp be written in a hyper text markup way ?
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2020-11-20T06:18:11Z Usersda: I don't think i'm articulating what i mean very well, but it's clear in my head
2020-11-20T06:18:26Z beach: Usersda: You are basically asking why current technologies have made crappy choices.  That's a very tough question.
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2020-11-20T06:19:11Z Usersda: for instance, <html> <href:www.com
2020-11-20T06:19:20Z Usersda: \>
2020-11-20T06:19:59Z Usersda:  could be written using lisp conventions
2020-11-20T06:20:34Z Usersda: There's nothing intrinsic about html syntax right ?
2020-11-20T06:20:41Z Usersda: it's all habit
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2020-11-20T06:20:45Z phadthai: (:html (:head (:title ...)) (:body ...)) ?  If so some systems provide macros for such
2020-11-20T06:21:08Z Usersda: yeah, something like that
2020-11-20T06:21:09Z beach: Usersda: Yes, it's all habit.  Like I often put it, people spend a lot of time and energy to avoid having to learn Common Lisp.
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2020-11-20T06:21:54Z no-defun-allowed: That is basically what cl-who accepts.
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2020-11-20T06:23:01Z Usersda: more complex reltionships like DOM in javascript, frames ect could all be expressed in the same language. Instead of having employers for instance asking you if you are proficient in spanish, arabic and chinese, they would be like, how experienced are you with english applied to dynamic web design.
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2020-11-20T06:23:50Z Usersda: can cl-who be used to create an uber like clone or other such app.
2020-11-20T06:24:36Z no-defun-allowed: If I redid the web, I would make it a distributed object system, and ask objects to draw themselves on the screen and handle events, instead of emitting a markup language no one knows how to reimplement.
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2020-11-20T06:25:30Z no-defun-allowed: But, yes, you can make an Uber clone using Lisp libraries. (Except that it won't handle the legal actions to not consider your drivers employees.)
2020-11-20T06:25:34Z Usersda: Like i was recently getting a quote from linode, and their estimate wizard was intense. I still don't know if I were to rent some server space, would i be able to implement lisp in a large production that can scale.
2020-11-20T06:25:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you want to generate HTML for a website, you can use something like spinneret
2020-11-20T06:26:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: hello, everyone!
2020-11-20T06:26:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hi
2020-11-20T06:26:43Z no-defun-allowed: Hello fiddlerwoaroof.
2020-11-20T06:26:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sorry, my IRC client had an issue :)
2020-11-20T06:26:57Z Usersda: no-defun-allowed: i feel like that would reduce the attack surface aswell
2020-11-20T06:26:59Z Alfr: no-defun-allowed, hm ... do these objects act themselfes or are they callable?
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2020-11-20T06:27:29Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not exactly sure yet.
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2020-11-20T06:28:34Z no-defun-allowed: Usersda: We have run projects on OVH with a small budget. There is also Heroku (with <https://github.com/jsmpereira/heroku-buildpack-cl>) which is free, if you can handle the "serverless" management stuff they do.
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2020-11-20T06:29:50Z Usersda: fifflerwoaroof: i'm not so much exploring ways to translate. I'm wondering what the actual advantage of html is. Like the chinese counting system is said to be easier or faster to sum totals.  to
2020-11-20T06:29:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most $5-$10/month VPCs can handle most people's websites
2020-11-20T06:30:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Usersda: network effects
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2020-11-20T06:30:25Z no-defun-allowed: A web browser is the most portable virtual machine ever made. Even Java doesn't have nothing on its usage.
2020-11-20T06:30:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Most things are the way they are because of relatively arbitrary decisions made sometime in the past
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2020-11-20T06:30:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Now, we're stuck with HTML/CSS/JS just because people already know them, so it's easy to find people to work for you
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2020-11-20T06:31:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's an annoying cycle, and it's nearly impossible to break because unusual technologies generally get scapegoated
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2020-11-20T06:32:01Z Usersda: I think you're right, and i'm glad i asked you guys. but that's deeply unsettling.
2020-11-20T06:32:23Z Usersda: from an efficiency standpoint.
2020-11-20T06:32:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: The fact is, when it comes to things like picking programming languages, companies look for the languages that are easiest/cheapest to hire for
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2020-11-20T06:34:22Z Usersda: well python is only easy/cheap to hire for because it blew up in the 2010's for some reason.
2020-11-20T06:34:26Z no-defun-allowed: Efficiency is not well defined. "The cheapest to hire for" may be the most efficient to an accountant.
2020-11-20T06:34:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Usersda: exactly
2020-11-20T06:35:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Something like Java is popular because Sun and other companies spent billions of dollars marketing it
2020-11-20T06:35:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then universities all decided it was the future and started teaching it to everyone in CS
2020-11-20T06:35:24Z Usersda: i can define it as such : if i have to hire someone who has to be experienced in chinese, spanish and arabic to write an ping pong slideshow in english....like wtf ?
2020-11-20T06:35:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: The thing is, programming languages aren't as hard to learn as natural languages
2020-11-20T06:36:10Z Usersda: ooooh that's why. the marketing , makes sense. that;s criminal though
2020-11-20T06:36:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I can, and have, gotten a job writing mainly a language I didn't know and learned enough to do good work over a couple weeks
2020-11-20T06:36:36Z Usersda: even before i came accross lisp i would look at python and c++ and be like...there must be a better way.
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2020-11-20T06:37:40Z Usersda: it's really affecting me, because i feel like lisp was hidden from me *insert zoolander crazy person meme*
2020-11-20T06:38:51Z Usersda: it's to the point where i'm discouraged. why did they push python so hard.
2020-11-20T06:39:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't actually understand python
2020-11-20T06:39:14Z no-defun-allowed: "It's easy to learn", they said.
2020-11-20T06:39:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I learned it a long time ago, and I never really noticed marketing the way Java was
2020-11-20T06:39:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I think libraries like numpy and it's relatively readable syntax made a huge difference
2020-11-20T06:39:41Z no-defun-allowed: "It will be like readable pseudocode", they said.
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2020-11-20T06:40:05Z no-defun-allowed: (I really dislike most pseudocodes, so that's not a very high standard. But they do say that.)
2020-11-20T06:40:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, it's standard library has enough to cover most of the utility scripts I write
2020-11-20T06:41:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are some things that are really annoying to do in CL: like, there's no high-quality library for dealing with IMAP
2020-11-20T06:41:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: (unless something has changed in the last 6 months or so)
2020-11-20T06:42:28Z Usersda: technically we could have different formalization of lisp for web service and a different one for locally executed scripts. The way you don't use the same terms and structures or tones at church as you do with friends.
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2020-11-20T06:44:45Z Usersda: "The original Interim Mail Access Protocol was implemented as a Xerox Lisp machine client and a TOPS-20 server. " wtf
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2020-11-20T06:47:27Z Usersda: even reddit was originally written in lisp. then all of sudden somebody decided we needed 50 languages and 3 years of comp sci to work on a underwear renting website.
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2020-11-20T06:58:21Z phadthai: https://dsf.berkeley.edu/papers/ERL-M90-34.pdf
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2020-11-20T07:04:07Z Usersda: "Our  point  of  view  is  that  most  data  bases  are  accessed  by  programs  written  in  several  differentlanguages, and we do not see any programming language Esperanto on the horizon." lol
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2020-11-20T07:12:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is the code for the lisp version of postgres still available?
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2020-11-20T07:15:18Z Usersda: fiddler, according to the wiki article it was lost.
2020-11-20T07:16:07Z Usersda: which in light of the constant cature of lisp projects by other languages once they start scalling , is like illuminaty territory
2020-11-20T07:16:18Z Usersda: capture **
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2020-11-20T07:16:44Z Usersda: that code is in some basement next to the ark of the covenant.
2020-11-20T07:18:38Z Usersda: anyways , thank for your input friends, i get mad sometimes so sorry about the rants , i just feel like so much time has been wasted
2020-11-20T07:19:57Z phadthai: I know the feeling
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2020-11-20T08:49:54Z jeosol: Good morning!
2020-11-20T08:50:07Z beach: Hello jeosol.
2020-11-20T08:50:26Z jeosol: Hi Beach, I am borrowing your greeting
2020-11-20T08:50:38Z beach: Fine with me.
2020-11-20T08:51:02Z jeosol: Been away from here, but back now. Recently moved cross-country
2020-11-20T08:51:14Z beach: What country is that?
2020-11-20T08:51:45Z jeosol: US; West-Coast (LA) to central (TX)
2020-11-20T08:51:59Z beach: I see.  Austin?
2020-11-20T08:52:39Z jeosol: belle ville. No Houston; but maybe I will move there soon if sth gets me there
2020-11-20T08:52:54Z beach: OK.
2020-11-20T08:52:56Z jeosol: How is your admittedly small family doing
2020-11-20T08:53:18Z beach: Fine as usual.  Enjoying her retirement.
2020-11-20T08:53:23Z jeosol: I think it's you that use that phrase
2020-11-20T08:53:27Z flip214: right
2020-11-20T08:53:29Z beach: Indeed.
2020-11-20T08:53:34Z jeosol: that's great.  you told me she worked with ILOG
2020-11-20T08:54:00Z beach: Yes, but ILOG was bought by IBM some time ago.
2020-11-20T08:54:13Z jeosol: I recently dabbled with it again, and someone here ( i forgot who), I think Luis, showed me some lisp interface libs
2020-11-20T08:54:30Z beach: Yes, Masai.
2020-11-20T08:54:35Z beach: Forget the lower-level one.
2020-11-20T08:54:41Z jeosol: I tested CPLEX since it's the one one I could get a license
2020-11-20T08:55:08Z beach: My (admittedly small) family was in charge of the documentation for CPLEX for a long time.
2020-11-20T08:55:23Z jeosol: Oh really. That's great.
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2020-11-20T08:55:46Z jeosol: She will have a lot of useful experience. I was looking at network applications
2020-11-20T08:56:13Z beach: I see.
2020-11-20T08:57:02Z jeosol: btw,  been trying to do remote calls to scale my applications. I recently started using docker and learned about swank-client.
2020-11-20T08:59:04Z jeosol: I am doing some benchmark now running async jobs, seeing how may connections I can make to a docker running lisp (one container).
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2020-11-20T09:03:27Z jeosol: beach: how is SICL coming along - watching the repo so get the updates.
2020-11-20T09:04:52Z beach: jeosol: Very slow but also very steady progress.
2020-11-20T09:06:46Z jeosol: that's great. Now I am back, I'll look over the backlog see what I can work/take on.
2020-11-20T09:07:01Z jeosol: I am not a compiler expert like you guys, mostly working on applications
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2020-11-20T09:07:49Z beach: Actually, Bike and karlosz are the ones working on the compiler these days.  I am doing bootstrapping.
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2020-11-20T09:10:29Z beach: jeosol: We have also forked off a few projects.  Eclector is quite good these days.  Trucler (lexical environments) seems to work.  So does Clostrum (first-class global environments).  Incless (Common Lisp printer) is being worked on.
2020-11-20T09:11:03Z beach: Cyclosis (streams) is also a separate library, but still embryonic.
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2020-11-20T09:12:07Z beach: And of course there are several tools that are independent from the SICL project, like Clouseau, McCLIM, CLIM flamegraph, etc.
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2020-11-20T10:41:31Z heisig: What is the state of Common Lisp in Visual Studio Code these days?  I am asking because some of my students are very interested in working with Lisp, but don't want to switch to Vim or Emacs.
2020-11-20T10:43:11Z moon-child: heisig: maybe try https://portacle.github.io/?  It's an 'emacs distro' bundled up with slime and sbcl
2020-11-20T10:45:05Z heisig: I know about Portacle.  That is what I usually recommend newcomers.  But I still need to explain plenty of C-c C-... tricks before they start enjoying it.
2020-11-20T10:45:15Z flip214: heisig: just force them to, they'll appreciate it in 10 years or so.
2020-11-20T10:45:32Z no-defun-allowed: There is https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ailisp.commonlisp-vscode but there's no debugger support apparently.
2020-11-20T10:45:35Z flip214: especially with vim ;)
2020-11-20T10:45:42Z moon-child: heisig: fair enough.  Don't know about vscode, but it's probably fine
2020-11-20T10:46:12Z heisig: flip214: Sure, that works for some people.  But I still feel I am scaring away 50% of the potential Common Lisp programmers.
2020-11-20T10:46:30Z moon-child: yeah, you need a gateway drug.  Don't try to sell them everything at once
2020-11-20T10:46:43Z no-defun-allowed: It seems a bit short of the capabilities of Swank in general.
2020-11-20T10:48:05Z heisig: Interestingly, the group of people that doesn't want to learn Emacs also doesn't care about the full power of Swank.  They usually just want completion and indentation.
2020-11-20T10:54:08Z beach: That's very sad.
2020-11-20T10:54:31Z beach: "Nah, I want to continue being low productive"
2020-11-20T10:55:22Z jackdaniel: beach: https://ilyasherdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/too_busy_to_improve_-_performance_management_-_square_wheels-1.png -- related picture
2020-11-20T10:55:45Z beach: If I were an employer, I would ask the university for a list of those, so that I wouldn't bother interviewing them for a possible job.
2020-11-20T10:56:35Z beach: jackdaniel: Heh, nice!
2020-11-20T10:56:46Z jackdaniel: :)
2020-11-20T10:56:56Z flip214: heisig: I think that's a good initial filter... just make "learn vim or emacs" (or in the other order) 20% of the final rating of that class ;)
2020-11-20T10:57:27Z flip214: only people who're interesting in learning the right tools will know the right tools later on!
2020-11-20T10:57:27Z jackdaniel: that said, I'm sure that it would be easier to sell unknown features like slime had the person not need to learn about emacs first
2020-11-20T10:57:49Z jackdaniel: (and there are efforts towards that goal, there is i.e slimv for vim, and I think that there is a client for the "atom" editor)
2020-11-20T10:58:09Z jackdaniel: so things are not that bad, probably more a discoverability problem than a wall for newcomers
2020-11-20T10:59:41Z beach: When I was in charge of the undergraduate program, we had a first-year course called "development environments" where we taught them Unix tools, Emacs, version control, GDB, etc.
2020-11-20T10:59:50Z phoe: heisig: there's slime clients for sublime text and atom, have you evaluated those?
2020-11-20T11:00:05Z jackdaniel: beach: we had something similar and that was very useful course
2020-11-20T11:00:11Z beach: My younger successors don't understand the value of such a course, naturally.
2020-11-20T11:00:31Z phoe: slima and slyblime, namely
2020-11-20T11:00:59Z beach: jackdaniel: Exactly!  And during the rest of the teaching program, we can assume knowledge of those tools.
2020-11-20T11:01:05Z phoe: these are important because they still make use of swank, and they reimplement just the frontend/slime part
2020-11-20T11:01:08Z no-defun-allowed: heisig: I agree with beach, I think they're missing out. There's still a bit more one can get out of that VS Code extension though, but it may just be a hassle to set up.
2020-11-20T11:01:36Z heisig: I don't fully buy the initial filter theory.
2020-11-20T11:01:38Z phoe: I assume that someone with enough patience could implement a swank frontend in vscode, too; it just hasn't been done because nobody did it
2020-11-20T11:01:39Z heisig: Firstly, it is not the case that you can't be productive outside of Emacs (blasphemy, I know).
2020-11-20T11:01:51Z jackdaniel: beach: that reminds me the book "concrete mathematics", very useful things. but I'm getting into offtopic :)
2020-11-20T11:02:06Z beach: no-defun-allowed: heisig may not be in charge of the entire program, though.
2020-11-20T11:02:19Z heisig: But more importantly, I see that many people learn new languages after casually tinkering with them.
2020-11-20T11:02:33Z heisig: And I don't see many people casually using Emacs.
2020-11-20T11:04:06Z heisig: phoe: Thanks for pointing me towards the sublime and atom plugins.  That could be useful.
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2020-11-20T11:04:21Z no-defun-allowed: To some extent, it would be like learning Smalltalk with just terminal IO (like with GNU Smalltalk or that didactic subset from that miniature interpreter tutorial) - but I guess you can still use SBCL's debugger and stuff with just a terminal emulator.
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2020-11-20T11:06:16Z phoe: yes, and the SBCL debugger is pretty damn handy sometimes
2020-11-20T11:06:17Z no-defun-allowed: I do hear SLIMA is much closer to the capabilities of SLIME though.
2020-11-20T11:06:34Z jackdaniel: 16GB and swapping
2020-11-20T11:06:37Z beach: heisig: You seem to suggest that the problem is just one of documentation.  Like, if it weren't presented as "First learn Emacs", but as a complete environment, then it would be an easier sell.
2020-11-20T11:07:44Z phoe: beach: no, it's a problem of time
2020-11-20T11:07:53Z phoe: learning emacs takes time even if you have complete documentation
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2020-11-20T11:08:58Z ck_: maybe incentive is also a factor, a demonstration of what value can be gained by investing the time
2020-11-20T11:09:00Z phoe: emacs has multiple idiosyncracies that do not make sense to people used to other editors, with the most famous one being C-z C-x C-c C-v not doing what the average non-Emacs user expects them to do
2020-11-20T11:09:02Z jackdaniel: one could argue, that learning emacs increases productivity, and that position could be defensible, however when someone wants to learn common lisp to increase productivity, having an emacs as a prerequisite seems like a big distraction -- that said, I have a strong recollection of such discussions on this channel :)
2020-11-20T11:09:24Z ck_: I remember fondly a little swf screen recording on the slime website, narrated by a person called yusuke I believe
2020-11-20T11:10:18Z phoe: I am currently helping one person learn Common Lisp. learning Emacs, as much it is a contemporary prerequisite for real CL work, is also a distraction because I want to spend time teaching CL, not to spend time answering "how do I undo the last thing I did in this editor, control-z does a weird thing"
2020-11-20T11:10:58Z phoe: ultimately, to total newbies, I want to teach Common Lisp, not Emacs - and Emacs makes this impossible
2020-11-20T11:12:09Z jackdaniel: that's why it is good that there are so many swank clients :)
2020-11-20T11:12:14Z phoe: yes
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2020-11-20T11:12:44Z phoe: it's an amazing recent development; I might actually try it someday with slima instead of emacs
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2020-11-20T11:13:33Z heisig: We were also discussing a fundraiser for better VSCode integration at SBCL20.  But I think that discussion went nowhere.
2020-11-20T11:13:51Z heisig: I'd be totally willing to contribute to such a fundraiser though.
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2020-11-20T11:14:57Z jackdaniel: wouldn't that involve implementing LSP protocol?
2020-11-20T11:14:57Z beach: phoe: So that suggests that only known tools are allowed.  But doesn't that contradict the fact that people seem to be willing to learn a new IDE for a new language?   Or have I misunderstood that?
2020-11-20T11:15:00Z jackdaniel: there is something nice to the name
2020-11-20T11:15:25Z heisig: jackdaniel: Yes, I think it would mostly be LSP work.
2020-11-20T11:15:26Z scymtym: jackdaniel: there are already multiple LSP implementations in CL
2020-11-20T11:15:39Z jackdaniel: that sounds promising
2020-11-20T11:16:05Z heisig: scymtym: That is why I was asking about the current state of things.  Is some of this already in a presentable state?
2020-11-20T11:16:21Z scymtym: sounds like "each is 70 % complete" to me
2020-11-20T11:16:51Z beach: phoe: If it just a problem with Emacs key sequences, then one could teach them the use of the menus.
2020-11-20T11:16:58Z jackdaniel: then let's use two and we'll have 140%, better than native MS tools :-)
2020-11-20T11:17:23Z scymtym: heisig: i don't know. mine isn't. it is a vehicle for playing with static analysis. one other one is a SWANK adapter, i think
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2020-11-20T11:17:39Z jackdaniel: beach: emacs has more unusual quirks that are annoying at times - like automatic frame managament  when a debugger pops up
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2020-11-20T11:19:31Z phoe: beach: there is the bootstrapping problem.
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2020-11-20T11:20:02Z phoe: If you try to bootstrap knowledge from an environment that is already somewhat familiar to people, then there is less to learn in order to be able to use the language.
2020-11-20T11:20:13Z phoe: If you try to bootstrap knowledge from an environment that is unfamiliar to people, then there is much more to learn in order to be able to use the language.
2020-11-20T11:20:32Z jackdaniel gets back to his emacs environment with slime, later o/
2020-11-20T11:20:36Z phoe: The latter means that people need to invest more of their time.
2020-11-20T11:20:54Z phoe: And that's not a deal that everyone wants to make, since time is the ultimate currency.
2020-11-20T11:21:37Z heisig: beach: Selling a programming language is not so much different than selling, e.g., clothes.  The most important part is (unfortunately) not the quality of your products but to get people into your shop in the first place.
2020-11-20T11:22:00Z heisig: And if entering the shop involves installing Emacs, that is bad for business.
2020-11-20T11:24:02Z scymtym: "see, you have invoke M-x buy-pants with a negative prefix argument to get shorts"
2020-11-20T11:24:56Z heisig: :D
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2020-11-20T11:33:59Z beach: I still feel that some important piece of the puzzle is missing here.  I guess I'll think about it over my lunch break.
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2020-11-20T11:35:43Z phoe: beach: please do! I'm curious what you find out
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2020-11-20T11:36:59Z scymtym: i wonder how pharo is sold to people. maybe it is easier since the editor question doesn't come up if you only offer one complete environment
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2020-11-20T11:38:15Z TMA: I know how Pharo was "sold" to me... it was a course requirement at the university.
2020-11-20T11:40:33Z green_: I don't get the clhs docs for 'search'.  http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_search.htm .  What is 'start-end' that the Description references?
2020-11-20T11:41:05Z phoe: green_: :from-end
2020-11-20T11:41:08Z phoe: it's a mistake in the CLHS
2020-11-20T11:42:52Z green_: oh, after all of these years it's not fixed?
2020-11-20T11:43:51Z green_: who maintains it?
2020-11-20T11:44:21Z jackdaniel: it is a ~verbatim ansi standard
2020-11-20T11:44:32Z jackdaniel: the last standard draft before publication namely
2020-11-20T11:44:47Z jackdaniel: so fixing it would imply rolling out a new standard
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2020-11-20T11:46:53Z green_: is anyone thinking of doing that.. just with fixes like this, which is an obvious error?
2020-11-20T11:47:04Z green_: or are we stuck with the current
2020-11-20T11:48:24Z jackdaniel: since it is obvious, there is not much incentive to undertake a massive endavour of pushing for a new standard
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2020-11-20T11:49:27Z scymtym: beach has plans for such a document which would focus on corrections and clarifications. i don't think the result is intended as a new standard, though
2020-11-20T11:52:02Z phoe: green_: actually
2020-11-20T11:52:10Z phoe: https://www.cliki.net/ANSI%20Clarifications%20and%20Errata
2020-11-20T11:52:13Z phoe: there's a collections of those here
2020-11-20T11:52:45Z phoe: there were several initiatives to produce a new CLHS-like document, but nothing conclusive just yet - it's a massive amount of precise and thankless work to do something like that
2020-11-20T11:52:57Z phoe: (and I say as someone who attempted to do that once, and did not finish)
2020-11-20T11:53:24Z phoe: (*especially* if your want the document to be machine-reproducible from source TeX files that CLHS was generated from)
2020-11-20T11:54:57Z green_: thanks.  the :start-end fix isn't in that list.  I wonder if there are many more of those.
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2020-11-20T11:55:44Z phoe: green_: !
2020-11-20T11:55:45Z phoe: good find!
2020-11-20T11:57:31Z mfiano: I can also speak from experience. I spent about a month total and got less than 1% finished.
2020-11-20T11:57:57Z phoe: green_: added, thank you for the catch
2020-11-20T11:58:33Z green_: thanks!
2020-11-20T11:59:39Z green_: when was the last time you had to update that doc?
2020-11-20T12:02:48Z green_: somebody should make a browser plugin that applies these changes to the online spec :)
2020-11-20T12:03:11Z phoe: green_: I remember adding something there this year
2020-11-20T12:03:28Z phoe: there were ideas for such a browser extension, but again, that's kinda thankless work
2020-11-20T12:04:42Z green_: uh.. I'm a free software developer -- thankless work is my thing
2020-11-20T12:06:15Z ck_: green_: well, is it done yet??
2020-11-20T12:06:37Z ck_: (scnr)
2020-11-20T12:07:01Z phoe: green_: ha
2020-11-20T12:07:11Z phoe: well, if you feel like it, no one is going to stop you
2020-11-20T12:07:23Z phoe: and some people might even thank you for that
2020-11-20T12:08:20Z green_: it wouldn't be thankless then.  forget it.
2020-11-20T12:08:52Z phoe: :(
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2020-11-20T14:56:36Z jmercouris: what is a good way of enforcing a protocol in Lisp?
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2020-11-20T14:56:56Z jmercouris: let's say I want EVERY class that inherits from class "Salmon" to implement a "Swim" method
2020-11-20T14:57:11Z jmercouris: how can I ensure that other than (defmethod swim ((salmon salmon)) (error ...))
2020-11-20T14:58:17Z jmercouris: if it isn't possible to enforce a protocol, what is a good way of showing that in the design that I intend for a protocol to be followed
2020-11-20T14:58:27Z jackdaniel: (defmethod swine :around (object) (if (deerp object) (call-next-method) (error "not a deer")))
2020-11-20T14:59:13Z jmercouris: did you mean to type swim?
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2020-11-20T14:59:40Z jmercouris: because swine is a noun, and I'm having a lot of trouble thinking about it as a method
2020-11-20T14:59:44Z jackdaniel: no, swine was an implementation of the swank protocol for climacs, I have no interest in swimming
2020-11-20T15:00:33Z jmercouris: and what is deerp? check if an object is a deer?
2020-11-20T15:00:43Z jackdaniel: does it matter?
2020-11-20T15:01:09Z jmercouris: it sure does, because the error says "not a deer"
2020-11-20T15:01:11Z jackdaniel: the point is that you may put an around method specialized on t that checks preconditions
2020-11-20T15:01:22Z jmercouris: I see, so you think that's what I should do then?
2020-11-20T15:01:37Z jackdaniel: no, I don't know what you should do because I don't know the problem
2020-11-20T15:01:42Z jackdaniel: this is an answer to your question
2020-11-20T15:01:57Z jmercouris: do you have any other possible solutions?
2020-11-20T15:02:05Z jackdaniel: to what?
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2020-11-20T15:02:11Z jmercouris: to my question
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2020-11-20T15:02:55Z jackdaniel: that would be answers. yes, you could use a library traits, define a :before method instead, define a non-standard generic function that checks the type of an argument
2020-11-20T15:03:10Z jmercouris: interesting ideas
2020-11-20T15:03:12Z jackdaniel: there are numerous ways to error when the object is not of a desired type
2020-11-20T15:03:14Z jmercouris: thanks, I will think about them
2020-11-20T15:03:21Z jmercouris: yes, I know that
2020-11-20T15:03:33Z jmercouris: but I am really thinking about how to indicate that a specific object should conform to a protocol
2020-11-20T15:03:43Z jmercouris: how to show that it should support some set of behavior
2020-11-20T15:04:00Z jackdaniel: uhm, good luck
2020-11-20T15:04:04Z jmercouris: it's not really about the type of the object, as it is can the object quack
2020-11-20T15:04:32Z jmercouris: I guess I could check to see if there exists a method that specializes quack on that object
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2020-11-20T15:14:33Z phoe: jmercouris: see my PROTEST/PROTOCOL library
2020-11-20T15:15:06Z phoe: in particular, protest/protocol:validate-implementations
2020-11-20T15:15:21Z phoe: which I guess should still work even though I have not taken a look at it in a long while
2020-11-20T15:18:42Z jmercouris: phoe: thanks, excellent documentation btw
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2020-11-20T15:26:19Z phoe: jmercouris: thank you
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2020-11-20T15:32:22Z Lycurgus: collective thx, i'm sure
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2020-11-20T15:36:02Z phoe: Lycurgus: what do you mean?
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2020-11-20T15:43:37Z Lycurgus: phoe, I meant that I presume the collective readership/audience will appreciate both the function and it's documentation
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2020-11-20T15:44:46Z phoe: Lycurgus: oh, I see; I hope it's useful
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2020-11-20T16:35:54Z phoe: I'd like to request a review for https://github.com/Harleqin/arrows/pull/3
2020-11-20T16:37:30Z jeosol: phoe: checked the repo, its fresh of the boat (5mins)
2020-11-20T16:37:44Z phoe: jeosol: yes
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2020-11-20T16:43:34Z mfiano: the diamond macro would need to be better supported
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2020-11-20T16:45:28Z phoe: mfiano: what do you mean?
2020-11-20T16:45:44Z mfiano: I only know of one threading macro library in CL that handles diamond symbols at an arbitrary depth, and at first glance it appears this one does not.
2020-11-20T16:45:48Z phoe: clojure's swiss-arrows doesn't support diamonds in subforms
2020-11-20T16:46:21Z phoe: arrow-macros depend on a code walker to implement this, but the author of arrows does not want to depend on such a heavy piece of machinery
2020-11-20T16:46:40Z phoe: hence, no, code-walking diamond support is out of scope
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2020-11-20T16:50:31Z mfiano: Wonder if tree-leaves is out of scope
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2020-11-20T16:50:40Z mfiano: That would cover most of it
2020-11-20T16:51:05Z phoe: this will replace in situations like (list '<>)
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2020-11-20T16:51:12Z phoe: which is rare, but possible
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2020-11-20T16:51:40Z phoe: this is unsolvable in the general case without code walking
2020-11-20T16:51:54Z mfiano: TREE-LEAVES is a naive code walker in a couple lines of code
2020-11-20T16:51:57Z mfiano: See TREE-LEAVES from Let Over Lambda
2020-11-20T16:52:34Z phoe: no idea; feel free to suggest this in the PR
2020-11-20T16:52:48Z mfiano: When I used threading macros, I switched to arrow-macros because limiting diamonds to the top level is pretty restrictive in the code I was writing
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2020-11-20T16:52:54Z Bike: https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap5.html this tree-leaves?
2020-11-20T16:53:10Z Bike: looks like it would happily replace the <> in '<>, since it doesn't know anything about lisp?
2020-11-20T16:53:18Z mfiano: Right
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2020-11-20T16:53:38Z Bike: this isn't really a code walker, it's just a dumb subst thing
2020-11-20T16:55:09Z mfiano: I agree completely, though he introduces it as a naive code walker IIRC.
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2020-11-20T16:59:11Z phoe: yes
2020-11-20T16:59:17Z phoe: it is naïve
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2020-11-20T17:07:49Z Josh_2: What keyword shares a slots value between all instances of a class?
2020-11-20T17:08:53Z phoe: keyword?
2020-11-20T17:08:59Z phoe: you mean :allocation :class?
2020-11-20T17:09:18Z Josh_2: maybe
2020-11-20T17:10:47Z lotuseater: i think that is it
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2020-11-20T17:10:56Z jeosol: Is there anyway, I can build an executable (SBCL) but have it run and enter a repl. I understand building application takes an entry function. I am trying to avoid (re)building a docker, if I can just rebuild on my local machine, then push to docker.
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2020-11-20T17:11:29Z jeosol: Using core files, I  obviously run into the issue of different runtime. Is there some hack around this?
2020-11-20T17:11:33Z phoe: jeosol: if you don't pass the entry point then it should reenter the repl
2020-11-20T17:11:41Z lotuseater: but in a class that inherits from superclasses the :allocation :class isn't given to the subclass
2020-11-20T17:11:42Z phoe: different runtimes? what do you mean?
2020-11-20T17:12:17Z jeosol: really. I tried to build a core file on my box but push it to the docker image and do sbcl --core corefile
2020-11-20T17:12:30Z jeosol: it complains about the corefile
2020-11-20T17:12:38Z phoe: the SBCL binaries *must* match in such case
2020-11-20T17:12:53Z jeosol: so maybe that is the hack I need, build an executable but leave out the entry function
2020-11-20T17:12:55Z lotuseater: ah yes i remember
2020-11-20T17:12:58Z jeosol: phoe: yes
2020-11-20T17:14:29Z jeosol: phoe: there is a mismatch, which is to be expected I guess. Thanks
2020-11-20T17:16:39Z ebrasca: What is this threading macros?
2020-11-20T17:17:07Z phoe: ebrasca: special syntax for binding anonymous variables
2020-11-20T17:17:08Z phoe: see https://github.com/phoe-trash/arrows/blob/master/doc/TUTORIAL.md
2020-11-20T17:17:42Z lotuseater: ah that like in clojure :)
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2020-11-20T17:20:50Z ebrasca: Why can you just use gensyms?
2020-11-20T17:21:43Z phoe: to avoid having gensyms and ## #= reader macros in source code
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2020-11-20T17:23:59Z jeosol: phoe: for my learning, when you say match, that's takes into account the machine/os. So using the same SBCL compiler v2.0.10 and say OpenSuSe, will not work for SBCL v2.0.10 and Debian
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2020-11-20T17:24:59Z phoe: jeosol: AFAIK they must have the identical binary, so differently compiled binaries with different md5 hashes likely won't work
2020-11-20T17:25:22Z ebrasca don't undestand why arrows are needed.
2020-11-20T17:25:32Z jeosol: ha, that's what it is.
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2020-11-20T17:26:51Z lotuseater: as far as i understand yet arrows are coming from category theory und functional programming for concurrency
2020-11-20T17:28:43Z phoe: ebrasca: they aren't needed; they are just some syntactic sugar over LET*
2020-11-20T17:28:48Z _death: ebrasca: they may make sense in cases where you have a lazy processing pipeline, e.g. with series (->> (scan-file ...) (map-fn t ...) (choose-if ...) (collect)) but otherwise they're just massively abused
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2020-11-20T17:29:14Z jackdaniel: is it possible on sbcl for the object to change its address (or whatever that number means) asynchronously? I mean the number in #<some-class {123412341234}>
2020-11-20T17:29:24Z jackdaniel: say, I print the object repeatedly in a loop
2020-11-20T17:29:50Z Bike: i think so? the garbage collector moves stuff, right?
2020-11-20T17:29:54Z jackdaniel: and I observe #<foo {1234}> and after some time it becomes #<foo {aa12}>
2020-11-20T17:29:58Z beach: jackdaniel: I think so, yes, and that's not asynchronous.
2020-11-20T17:30:00Z jackdaniel: hm, that may be the case, thank you
2020-11-20T17:30:29Z jackdaniel: well, asynchronous in a sense that I'm not doing anything what could cause side effects, that's not the right term
2020-11-20T17:30:52Z beach: But it could allocate memory, and call the GC.
2020-11-20T17:31:09Z jackdaniel: but it "looks like asynchronously", and it confused me quite a bit, because I was trying to find a piece of code that swapped my object (and find out when that has happened)
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2020-11-20T17:31:31Z beach: I agree that it's very confusing for the person trying to debug the code.
2020-11-20T17:32:30Z jackdaniel: thanks Bike and beach, that's the only explanation I could come up with - and printing a gensym seems to "prove" that it is the same object
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2020-11-20T17:32:43Z jackdaniel: s/I could come up with/that makes sense/
2020-11-20T17:33:47Z beach: Sure.  It happens to me all the time, given that I probably allocate huge amounts of memory, so the GC runs all the time.
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2020-11-20T17:38:34Z jeosol: I know there is talk about CL libs having poor documentation, but given most libs are developed by small teams/individuals, there isn't much time to do full documentation for every function and also show how to use them.
2020-11-20T17:38:57Z jeosol: I say that in the light of having discovered gems and use cases by actually looking at library source code.
2020-11-20T17:39:18Z beach: jeosol: I don't think you can generalize that way.  The libraries I mentioned before are usually well documented.
2020-11-20T17:39:27Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, the GC is moving these objects - I asked about specifically this on #sbcl some time ago
2020-11-20T17:39:29Z jeosol: And also the associated test library
2020-11-20T17:39:46Z phoe: in other words, the identity printed by print-unreadable-object is allowed to change at any time
2020-11-20T17:39:47Z jeosol: beach: I wasn't referring to any specific case per se.
2020-11-20T17:40:29Z jeosol: Pardon if my comment came out as a generalization. it is also not intended to mean we should not document or make things clearer
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2020-11-20T17:40:45Z beach: OK.
2020-11-20T17:41:00Z ebrasca: I don't know how to make good documentation.
2020-11-20T17:41:33Z jeosol: I am considering teaching CL in a class setting, not formal, but introducing the students, so look for ways to avoid the frustration I hear with emacs and other tooling. I am no expert though
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2020-11-20T17:42:00Z jeosol: esbrasca: I guess, I conflated "tutorial/examples" with documentation. I meant the former.
2020-11-20T17:42:03Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: then read this: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2013/09/teach-dont-tell/
2020-11-20T17:42:46Z jeosol: jackdaniel: thanks for the link.
2020-11-20T17:43:16Z jackdaniel: sure, I'm usually recommending this writing by sjl_ when the topic of documentation comes up, because I've really enjoyed reading it
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2020-11-20T17:47:34Z jeosol: jackdaniel: sjl_? he authored that page
2020-11-20T17:48:27Z jackdaniel: yes
2020-11-20T17:48:52Z jeosol: beach: I do remember your metamodular document has a section about guidelines for documenting libraries
2020-11-20T17:49:31Z lotuseater: i like literate programming with org-mode
2020-11-20T17:50:49Z beach: jeosol: Oh?  Great!  I can never remember what stuff I write.  People keep reminding me all the time.
2020-11-20T17:51:58Z jeosol: I remembered that section because around that time, I was trying to write and document better; so I looked at the google guide, norvig/pitman guide etc.
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2020-11-20T17:52:19Z beach: I believe you.
2020-11-20T17:52:34Z jeosol: beach: IIRC, in one of your libs you recommented for better doc, you advocted prepended % to slot names
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2020-11-20T17:53:00Z beach: That sounds plausible.
2020-11-20T17:53:45Z beach: jeosol: I have to vanish.  My (admittedly small) family just announced that dinner is served.  I'll be back tomorrow morning (UTC+1).
2020-11-20T17:54:40Z jeosol: Great have a nice evening.
2020-11-20T17:54:48Z beach: Thanks!
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2020-11-20T18:00:13Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Probably I need to practice this fantastic tips of how to write documentation, instead of only reading it.
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2020-11-20T18:02:00Z lotuseater: ebrasca and examples are good :)
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2020-11-20T18:06:32Z ebrasca think if he master documentation he is going to have 2 topics to learn left : profiling and testing.
2020-11-20T18:08:04Z lotuseater: oh yes
2020-11-20T18:08:19Z lotuseater: don't forget in testing powerful property tests :)
2020-11-20T18:08:43Z lotuseater: but I just used them in haskell yet, not in CL
2020-11-20T18:08:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Testing isn't so hard in lisps: the sorts of things you do to make a codebase nice to work with in the REPL makes testing easier too
2020-11-20T18:09:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: And things like WITH-INPUT-FROM-STRING make a huge difference here, compared to Java or somethign
2020-11-20T18:09:48Z ebrasca: I get confused when making testing for file systems. Like ext4/fat32
2020-11-20T18:10:31Z lotuseater: so much to learn left ._.
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2020-11-20T18:10:45Z ebrasca: Don't know how to test everity combination of input/output.
2020-11-20T18:10:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: What I've found is that separating the part of code that interacts with outside things (disks/etc.) from the code that doesn't need to (file format parsers, etc.) makes a huge difference
2020-11-20T18:11:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: ebrasca: that's tricky :) property testing helps there, but it can be relatively slow
2020-11-20T18:12:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I find well-chosen unit tests are often sufficient for the certainty you need in most cases
2020-11-20T18:12:42Z lotuseater: OR you prove some parts :P
2020-11-20T18:12:43Z ebrasca: fiddlerwoaroof: How can you be sure you have 100% coverage or data waiting to be lost?
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2020-11-20T18:13:27Z lotuseater: unit testing just gives you what you think about
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2020-11-20T18:19:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: ebrasca: yeah, for filesystems it gets more complicated because the stakes are higher
2020-11-20T18:20:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: In my experience, though, unit tests are a good way to discover edge cases and especially because they're easier to write and maintain than a lot of other sorts of tests
2020-11-20T18:21:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Proofs, for example, often are too difficult to change to be feasible for anything except the most important code
2020-11-20T18:21:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Property tests are often too slow to run frequently while working
2020-11-20T18:22:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: All of these things have their place, obviously
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2020-11-20T18:39:49Z ebrasca: fiddlerwoaroof: How do you recomend me to test my case?
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2020-11-20T18:47:23Z phoe: okay
2020-11-20T18:47:34Z phoe: it seems that I have achieved arrows as places
2020-11-20T18:47:43Z ebrasca: fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks!
2020-11-20T18:48:09Z phoe: which is an original development, not coming from clojure - mostly because clojure doesn't have places
2020-11-20T18:48:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: ebrasca: well, I'd say the first thing to do is to write unit tests, because that's easy to do and it'll help you think about things like API design and code structure
2020-11-20T18:48:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: is that just relying on the macroexpansion provisions of the specification?
2020-11-20T18:49:52Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: not really; I am currently rewriting arrows to expand into LET* for readability
2020-11-20T18:49:57Z phoe: and LET* forms make very poor places
2020-11-20T18:50:09Z phoe: hence I need to play with a custom setf expander for them
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2020-11-20T18:52:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, doesn't expanding to LET* break things?
2020-11-20T18:53:01Z phoe: not if you are only reading values
2020-11-20T18:53:17Z phoe: I need a custom setf expander if I want to write things
2020-11-20T18:53:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: like (->> (expensive) (or t))
2020-11-20T18:53:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean, the arrows misbehave
2020-11-20T18:53:46Z phoe: hmmm
2020-11-20T18:53:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd expect that to return t quickly
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2020-11-20T18:54:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: The benefit in clojure is that it's purely syntactic
2020-11-20T18:54:20Z phoe: yes, I have not taken this into account
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2020-11-20T19:16:15Z phoe: my current implementation of arrows makes the assumption that each form passed to the threading macro is going to be evaluated; splicing such a form into a form with special evaluation rules, e.g. OR, breaks this assumption
2020-11-20T19:16:39Z phoe: and now that I think of it, I have no idea if this is acceptable from an implementation of arrow macros
2020-11-20T19:17:41Z phoe: hmmm
2020-11-20T19:19:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've written a lot of Clojure code that uses arrows with macros that change evaluation rules
2020-11-20T19:19:56Z phoe: yes, I see, so that is a valid use case
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2020-11-20T19:24:42Z pfdietz: Property based tests are wonderful and powerful.   I use them to find all sorts of bugs.
2020-11-20T19:24:51Z phoe: pfdietz: what did you find?
2020-11-20T19:25:16Z pfdietz: All those weird SBCL bugs I report?   All due to various kinds of property based tests.
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2020-11-20T19:26:12Z pfdietz: Example property:  "the SBCL compiler should never signal an error, even on erroneous input".
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2020-11-20T19:26:42Z pfdietz: Or:  "a valid Common Lisp expression should do the same thing regardless of OPTIMIZE settings".
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2020-11-20T19:28:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: pfdietz: yeah, it's a great tool my experience, though, is that I use the property tests to generate more deterministic test cases in my unit test suite.
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2020-11-20T19:30:39Z pfdietz: Sure, you want to capture the failures, just to make sure they dont unfix themselves later.   But PBT keeps finding new bugs as development introduces them.  And sometimes it finds a very low probability failure, something that took billions of inputs to expose.
2020-11-20T19:32:03Z pfdietz: I liked this one:  lp 1730699
2020-11-20T19:32:06Z pfdietz: lp 1730699
2020-11-20T19:32:06Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1730699
2020-11-20T19:33:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
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2020-11-20T19:38:04Z Bike: pfdietz: are you the one who put the bizarre MISC tests in ansi-tests?
2020-11-20T19:38:52Z pfdietz: Yes, they were hits from that sort of testing on various lisps.
2020-11-20T19:38:58Z phoe: Bike: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test/-/blame/master/misc/misc.lsp
2020-11-20T19:39:05Z Bike: they've been good for finding compiler problems in clasp
2020-11-20T19:39:09Z Bike: so, thanks
2020-11-20T19:39:33Z pfdietz: Nice!   It's interesting that they have value later.  That may say something deep about testing.
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2020-11-20T19:41:01Z easye: "One test may be dumb, but a thousand dumb tests are smart."
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2020-11-20T19:52:53Z pfdietz: I have considered using random test generation and minimization to generate unit tests, not by keeping failures, but by keeping tests that satisfy some other property (coverage, killing mutants).   This might give a distilled unit test set that preserves some of the value of a prolonged run of the random tester.
2020-11-20T19:54:04Z alandipert: anyone know a good comparison of CL and ISLISP?
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2020-11-20T19:57:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: pfdietz: I think unit test's primary value is in helping you figure out the problem space as you're working
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2020-11-20T19:58:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Making it efficient to run 100+ picked examples every minute or so to verify that you're making progress
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2020-11-20T21:25:31Z lotuseater: to come back to documentation, how do you think of the common lisp hyperspec?
2020-11-20T21:28:15Z no-defun-allowed: The HyperSpec is a bit like a dictionary. It is rarely a good idea to try to learn how to do things from it, but you can clear up your understanding using it.
2020-11-20T21:30:48Z lotuseater: yes, some of the main symbols have good examples, others not
2020-11-20T21:31:37Z lotuseater: I don't even know all 978 symbols up to now :D
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2020-11-20T21:32:40Z Xach: 978??
2020-11-20T21:33:21Z Xach: (loop for s being each external-symbol of :common-lisp count s) => 977
2020-11-20T21:33:25Z Xach runs
2020-11-20T21:33:31Z lotuseater: Xach yes if looking at symbol index
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2020-11-20T21:33:36Z phoe: Xach: sigh
2020-11-20T21:33:38Z lotuseater: oh no :(
2020-11-20T21:33:40Z phoe: NIL is not counted
2020-11-20T21:33:45Z phoe: you need to count 1
2020-11-20T21:34:08Z lotuseater: phoe yes that's it
2020-11-20T21:34:34Z phoe: or count t
2020-11-20T21:36:44Z lotuseater: that would be a question in a certification test :D
2020-11-20T21:37:40Z dbotton: In quickproject the defpackage is placed in package.lisp is there a reason for not placing the defpackage in the actual package at the top?
2020-11-20T21:37:52Z lotuseater: but I'm not aware if something like this is existent in my country
2020-11-20T21:38:46Z lotuseater: dbotton I think if multiple files namespace is for the same package
2020-11-20T21:39:57Z dbotton: Then package order in the asd file would remove that as an issue
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2020-11-20T21:40:22Z mfiano: Wait...
2020-11-20T21:40:26Z lotuseater: hmmm
2020-11-20T21:40:30Z mfiano: package order in the asd file?
2020-11-20T21:40:35Z mfiano: asd does not manage packages
2020-11-20T21:41:03Z dbotton: The components section defies order files would be loaded in
2020-11-20T21:41:08Z dbotton: Defines
2020-11-20T21:41:16Z mfiano: packages have nothing to do with files
2020-11-20T21:41:24Z mfiano: they are containers of symbols
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2020-11-20T21:42:30Z dbotton: Correct, lotuseater was offering possible answer to my question that multiple files being used for same namespace
2020-11-20T21:42:51Z dbotton: In such a situation order is likely important anyways
2020-11-20T21:43:37Z mfiano: modules have dependencies, just like the root module. You don't have to load serially
2020-11-20T21:43:55Z dbotton: So we go back to my question, rephrased, what is the advantage of having a packages.lisp file instead of leaving defpackage at start of files
2020-11-20T21:44:15Z mfiano: Typically package.lisp is at the start of files
2020-11-20T21:44:52Z mfiano: library chosen randomly: https://github.com/Shinmera/verbose/blob/master/verbose.asd#L17
2020-11-20T21:45:07Z lotuseater: I also had this question in my mind when it comes to frequently changing some files
2020-11-20T21:46:27Z dbotton: Decoupling that from the actual "package" makes the files less portable
2020-11-20T21:46:52Z dbotton: Ie you have to copy out the definition of the package from the packages file when re-using the package
2020-11-20T21:46:59Z dbotton: Why would I want to do that?
2020-11-20T21:47:02Z mfiano: You're not making a ton of sense.
2020-11-20T21:47:37Z mfiano: I am having a hard time parsing what you are even saying. Maybe someone else can ask the right question so you can ask the right question.
2020-11-20T21:47:54Z dbotton: Let me give an example, if I have a file that defines a package of string functions
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2020-11-20T21:48:29Z dbotton: If I want to copy that file to a new project, I have to copy that file and also cut and paste from that packages.lisp
2020-11-20T21:48:30Z mfiano: Stop right there
2020-11-20T21:48:37Z mfiano: packages don't define functions
2020-11-20T21:48:54Z dbotton: Functions are in the namespace of the package?
2020-11-20T21:49:13Z dbotton: Some exported some not?
2020-11-20T21:49:14Z lotuseater: yes but just export to the system the set of symbols
2020-11-20T21:49:17Z mfiano: Common Lisp has multiple namespaces, and packages only care about _symbols_
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2020-11-20T21:50:04Z Xach: dbotton: if a project is big enough to have a separate package file, it's common to define a system for it, and depend on the system, not copy things around.
2020-11-20T21:50:35Z Xach: I sometimes copy rather than depend-on, but only for pretty small self-contained things. Single functions, or self-contained files of related things.
2020-11-20T21:50:38Z dbotton: Yes, but the idea is for reuse to other projects
2020-11-20T21:50:48Z dbotton: Unrelated
2020-11-20T21:50:55Z dbotton: To the current project
2020-11-20T21:50:58Z Xach: copying is a less-common way to reuse than defining a system
2020-11-20T21:53:06Z dbotton: Ok, so you find in large projects defining all the packages in one file works out well.
2020-11-20T21:53:44Z Xach: dbotton: In my experience, yes.
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2020-11-20T21:54:03Z dbotton: Then I'll keep to it for now :) Thanks
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2020-11-20T22:20:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: dbotton: package definitions are side effects on the reader
2020-11-20T22:20:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've found it more convenient to centralize packages in package.lisp because then, when I want to move a set of definitions to a new file, I just put (in-package :the-package) and copy/paste
2020-11-20T22:21:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ultimately, I want to store the code in the lisp image and treat files as disposable
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2020-11-21T00:08:58Z seok: hey guys~~
2020-11-21T00:09:08Z seok: does anyone know a video on reader macros
2020-11-21T00:09:37Z Xach: i do not know of a video like that
2020-11-21T00:10:02Z seok: eh i wanted to watch instead of reading while playing a game
2020-11-21T00:10:07Z seok: guess i have to read it then
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2020-11-21T00:14:24Z mfiano: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygKXeLKhiTI
2020-11-21T00:14:27Z lotuseater: seok maybe cbaggers has something?
2020-11-21T00:14:31Z mfiano: starting at about 1:23:00
2020-11-21T00:14:37Z seok: ohh
2020-11-21T00:14:44Z seok: does he cover reader macros?
2020-11-21T00:14:45Z lotuseater: uuh i knew it!
2020-11-21T00:14:53Z seok: ya i knew this video
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2020-11-21T00:15:02Z seok: thought it was standard macros only
2020-11-21T00:15:07Z seok: thx!
2020-11-21T00:15:31Z lotuseater: and maybe compiler macros beside symbolmacros
2020-11-21T00:15:43Z lotuseater: but i have to watch it again
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2020-11-21T00:17:19Z lotuseater: cepl seems nice but I'm not aware how to start, the videos are for the old version
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2020-11-21T00:42:03Z mfiano: Speaking of compiler macros, I don't remember the last time I needed to write one, but I have a question related to them: Do I have to gensym when introducing a new lexical variable as part of its expansion to prevent unwanted capture in the same case as for regular macros?
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2020-11-21T00:44:47Z lotuseater: I would say so, but also didn't need them yet so much
2020-11-21T00:45:33Z lotuseater: I would use them extensively for programming mathematical identities
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2020-11-21T01:56:28Z _death: mfiano: yes.. e.g., (define-compiler-macro foo (x y) `(let ((z ,x)) (list z ,y))) (let ((z 123)) (foo 1 z)) ==> (1 1)
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2020-11-21T02:25:17Z oni-on-ion: compiler macro is not regular macro? never seen this before now
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2020-11-21T02:37:13Z _death: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node101.html#SECTION001240000000000000000
2020-11-21T02:38:27Z _death: well, that page's a bit outdated.. I guess the clhs entry is more informative
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2020-11-21T02:49:04Z oni-on-ion: what about eval-when ?
2020-11-21T02:50:27Z _death: what about it?
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2020-11-21T03:40:16Z ldbeth: ok, emacs update broke my erc
2020-11-21T03:40:26Z ldbeth: good morning everyone
2020-11-21T03:43:13Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldbeth.
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2020-11-21T04:19:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-21T04:56:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning!
2020-11-21T04:57:42Z no-defun-allowed: Hello fiddlerwoaroof.
2020-11-21T05:00:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, Lispworks is the only implementation (of three) I can get to work on my new laptop
2020-11-21T05:00:50Z no-defun-allowed: Interesting; what kind of laptop?
2020-11-21T05:00:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: The new ARM macs
2020-11-21T05:01:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, I haven't actually stress-tested Lispworks
2020-11-21T05:01:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: CCL sort of works, but it crashes when I try a rebuild
2020-11-21T05:02:02Z no-defun-allowed: I see.
2020-11-21T05:02:14Z no-defun-allowed: Does that use Rosetta 2 then?
2020-11-21T05:02:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2020-11-21T05:03:47Z aeth: I'm surprised it works at all. These sorts of things tend not to care about obscure, GCed languages.
2020-11-21T05:04:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: rosetta error: unsupported 'int 115'
2020-11-21T05:04:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Just got that when I tried to setup quicklisp
2020-11-21T05:04:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: (CCL)
2020-11-21T05:04:23Z aeth: have you tried SBCL?
2020-11-21T05:04:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2020-11-21T05:04:37Z aeth: does it work?
2020-11-21T05:04:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: mmap: Cannot allocate memory / ensure_space: failed to validate 1073741824 bytes at 0x1000000000
2020-11-21T05:04:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I assume ABCL works
2020-11-21T05:05:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: And ECL, probably?
2020-11-21T05:05:31Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: A funny coincedence, while I'm reading about how refcounting is faster on a M1 processor.
2020-11-21T05:10:28Z no-defun-allowed: It takes 6.5ns to create and free a NSObject on M1/Objective-C, and 6.7ns to create and eventually free a standard-object on x86-64/SBCL. That's a 3% performance increase; something you'd expect from Intel marketing these days :)
2020-11-21T05:11:13Z no-defun-allowed: fiddlerwoaroof: Seriously though, do you find it any faster? Most articles I find say it's much faster than an Intel MacBook.
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2020-11-21T05:13:55Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: that's not a high bar...
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2020-11-21T05:24:02Z theemacsshibe: aeth: It doesn't have to be; we're comparing one Apple laptop to another.
2020-11-21T05:25:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I haven't used it enough to really tell
2020-11-21T05:25:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: The battery life is the most significant difference so far
2020-11-21T05:25:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, things like being able to use iOS Slack instead of whatever
2020-11-21T05:26:09Z theemacsshibe: I see.
2020-11-21T05:28:25Z oni-on-ion: iOS on M1?
2020-11-21T05:32:25Z aeth: oni-on-ion: Apple is migrating to ARM because (1) its ARM chips are competitive with Intel's x86-64 chips and (2) Apple wants to eventually merge macOS (a cost) with iOS (where all of their profit is)
2020-11-21T05:32:48Z aeth: Not surprisingly, niche languages aren't emulated well in the transition
2020-11-21T05:33:07Z aeth: They probably use different instructions than LLVM does
2020-11-21T05:33:25Z theemacsshibe: Do "they" have to port a JVM to AArch64/macOS then?
2020-11-21T05:33:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, it's a bit more complex than that aeth
2020-11-21T05:33:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Apple's software all runs on the Objective-C VM (more or less)
2020-11-21T05:34:07Z aeth: theemacsshibe: who knows?
2020-11-21T05:34:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: for macOS 11, they've made the iOS frameworks available on normal computers
2020-11-21T05:34:28Z aeth: on the one hand, JVM would also be hard to emulate; on the other, there might actually be Java apps on macOS worth emulating
2020-11-21T05:34:35Z theemacsshibe: An interesting headline: "Microsoft contributes to Java port for Apple silicon Macs"
2020-11-21T05:35:30Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, a disturbing trend. iOS is the world's most popular locked-down platform.
2020-11-21T05:35:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think this is actually good news for iOS
2020-11-21T05:35:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's better than the Android trajectory
2020-11-21T05:36:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Rosetta isn't exactly emulation
2020-11-21T05:37:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's a combination of a JIT and dynamic binary translation
2020-11-21T05:37:59Z oni-on-ion: aeth, yeah i know that stuff .
2020-11-21T05:38:20Z oni-on-ion: fiddlerwoaroof, ahh, cool !
2020-11-21T05:38:40Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: maybe it's good news for iOS, but it's bad news for macOS, and I'm not looking forward to getting bug reports from Mac users.
2020-11-21T05:38:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know
2020-11-21T05:38:59Z oni-on-ion: technically iOS users if accurate simu/emu
2020-11-21T05:39:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Apple's always been a pain to support :)
2020-11-21T05:39:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially if you don't have Apple hardware
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2020-11-21T05:40:35Z aeth: no, there was a good 5 or so years when it was basically just an odd x86-64 BSD
2020-11-21T05:41:28Z aeth: I have no idea how you'd even attempt to mix the CL workflow with stuff like this, though: https://lapcatsoftware.com/articles/unsigned.html
2020-11-21T05:42:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: So far, there's always been a workaround
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2020-11-21T05:43:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, the basic path is straightforward: sign the sbcl executable and always launch your app through that executable
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2020-11-21T05:52:48Z oni-on-ion: put the core in the .app folder
2020-11-21T05:53:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, the .app stuff is really cool on macos, and trivial to use from lisp
2020-11-21T05:54:04Z aeth: That's basically saying to avoid save-lisp-and-die exporting even if you do that on every other platform.
2020-11-21T05:54:19Z oni-on-ion: NeXT brought a lot of nice tech into the world
2020-11-21T05:54:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, although I've started just doing fasls in docker containers
2020-11-21T05:54:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: The objective-c runtime as a whole is a much nicer thing to interact with than the low-level APIs of alternative platforms
2020-11-21T05:55:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, this is what abstraction is for: something like ASDF could make a "thing" that works on whichever platform you're targeting
2020-11-21T05:56:07Z oni-on-ion: objective-c is one of my top favorite languages, there was a point i made my own runtime. it talked to gnu smalltalk =)
2020-11-21T05:56:30Z oni-on-ion: isnt it uiop's job to do system-specific stuff ?
2020-11-21T05:58:22Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: afaik, you can't sign it in a way that doesn't have scary warnings without paying Apple 100 $/year
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2020-11-21T05:58:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I’m thinking of program-op
2020-11-21T05:58:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Aeth it depends
2020-11-21T05:58:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: I’m pretty sure the notarization process is free
2020-11-21T05:59:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: And that's all most people need
2020-11-21T05:59:26Z aeth: According to the article, "Mac developers must sign up for the Apple Developer Program, sign a legal agreement, and pay an annual fee of USD $99 plus tax in order to obtain a Developer ID code signing certificate and upload software to Apple for notarization."
2020-11-21T05:59:57Z aeth: Anything unsigned or locally signed will have a "this might be malware" popup
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2020-11-21T06:01:03Z aeth: The only thing that saves CL here is that most non-commercial applications will just be distributed in .lisp source code form for local compilation and running on a presumably-signed already-installed CL compiler
2020-11-21T06:01:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: The thing is, most applications you could just pop up a loading screen and compile the code on the fly
2020-11-21T06:01:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: even for a commercial app
2020-11-21T06:01:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, distribute FASLs
2020-11-21T06:01:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or cores
2020-11-21T06:01:56Z aeth: Any end-user application written in CL (which can't assume that the user has their own CL installed) will either have to be commercial or money-losing.
2020-11-21T06:02:09Z aeth: Unless you distribute and install the CL like it's the JVM or something.
2020-11-21T06:02:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: You're already doing that when you save-lisp-and-die
2020-11-21T06:02:26Z aeth: That's not really the common workflow, though. Generally, you export an executable if you don't expect the user to have CL installed.
2020-11-21T06:02:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Really, on macOS a GUI application should have a .app bundle
2020-11-21T06:03:02Z aeth: No, the output of save-lisp-and-die would, afaik, have to be signed, which costs 100 USD/year.
2020-11-21T06:03:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Only if you do :executable t
2020-11-21T06:03:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you just save a core and load it when sbcl starts up, it won't
2020-11-21T06:03:59Z aeth: Now you have to distribute a matching SBCL version. Java can get away with this because lots of things use Java.
2020-11-21T06:04:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: You do this: foo.app/Contents/MacOS/foo (sbcl)
2020-11-21T06:04:24Z aeth: This also is assuming that SBCL signs the macOS executables, idk if it does
2020-11-21T06:04:29Z oni-on-ion: hmm lisp (fasl) can be disasm quite easily ? can one only distribute the fasl/core and are those somewhat protected ?
2020-11-21T06:04:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: foo.app/Contents/Resources/foo.core (your program)
2020-11-21T06:04:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: then zip foo.zip foo.app
2020-11-21T06:04:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: or whatever
2020-11-21T06:05:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: You also need an Info.plist and the other packaging stuff (icons, etc.)
2020-11-21T06:05:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, if you're not distributing to developers, you'd need all this stuff anyways
2020-11-21T06:06:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: You also need some functions like this to grab resources out of the app bundle: https://github.com/cjdev/aws-access/blob/master/src/objc-utils.lisp
2020-11-21T06:06:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, $99/year is like three cups of coffee a month
2020-11-21T06:08:48Z aeth: Alternatively, $99/year is like an entire computer a decade, on top of having to actually buy an entire Apple computer a decade in order to test/build the application.
2020-11-21T06:09:13Z aeth: while every other OS can just be run in a VM
2020-11-21T06:09:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can run macOS in a VM :)
2020-11-21T06:09:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's not exactly legal
2020-11-21T06:09:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: But it's fairly trivial
2020-11-21T06:09:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: (it's not legal on non-apple hardware, that is)
2020-11-21T06:10:07Z aeth: well, it won't be trivial for long now that the transition to ARM is underway
2020-11-21T06:11:02Z aeth: Breaking the law in the process of making your software is essentially a non-starter for distributing software, anyway.
2020-11-21T06:11:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean, if you're going the commercial route, you're not going to worry about $99/year
2020-11-21T06:12:39Z aeth: If you're going the commercial route and not supporting iOS, then there's a very good chance that the money you make from macOS will not be enough to make up for the increased expense for supporting macOS.
2020-11-21T06:13:01Z aeth: Especially when Apple goes out of the way to act like they're in Microsoft's position, not a < 5% position.
2020-11-21T06:13:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, that depends on your target market
2020-11-21T06:13:37Z aeth: At least with CL, in theory everything is portable, within reason.
2020-11-21T06:15:03Z oni-on-ion: Chmm
2020-11-21T06:15:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ok, when building abcl, my 2015 mac isn't even close to the new one
2020-11-21T06:15:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: (not entirely fair, for sure, but...)
2020-11-21T06:15:49Z aeth: My main concern with macOS, though, would be if they require everything to go through the App Store, like with iOS. Obviously not literally, since you wouldn't be able to develop for macOS (or iOS!) if they did, but contractually, it could be required.
2020-11-21T06:16:43Z aeth: Every indication is that they're moving to a macOS-iOS merger in the long run (except touch support, which afaik is still missing from macOS, unlike, say, Windows)
2020-11-21T06:17:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know, iOS is being split
2020-11-21T06:17:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: They're spliting ipadOS from the phone system, for example
2020-11-21T06:18:03Z aeth: Considering how long everything I do takes, I wouldn't be surprised if Apple locks down their desktop/laptop platform before I even complete anything that I would want to export as a binary.
2020-11-21T06:18:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's going to be some kind of merger
2020-11-21T06:19:12Z oni-on-ion: tvOS, watchOS
2020-11-21T06:19:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, ABCL build on my new laptop:
2020-11-21T06:19:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: ant  97.38s user 3.70s system 159% cpu 1:03.33 total
2020-11-21T06:20:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: I accidentally C-ced the other one, but it was like 5 minutes
2020-11-21T06:20:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm going to try on my 2019 work mac next
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2020-11-21T06:37:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: My work mac looks like this: 166.41s user 9.68s system 165% cpu 1:46.50 total
2020-11-21T06:37:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: My 16 core Ryzen 2 box like this: 140.36s user 2.52s system 202% cpu 1:10.62 total
2020-11-21T06:38:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: My 2015 MBP like this: 323.80s user 20.27s system 141% cpu 4:03.64 total
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2020-11-21T06:42:16Z aeth: Not surprising... it's only going to be competitive to roughly contemporary AMD going forward unless Intel can turn themselves around. And I wouldn't be surprised if Intel finds a way to fall into #4 or #5 by 2023.
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2020-11-21T06:43:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2020-11-21T06:43:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I should upgrade to the new Ryzen chips
2020-11-21T06:43:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: A 5950 or something
2020-11-21T06:43:35Z aeth: We should do a gofundme to make a Lisp machine CPU on TSMC 5 nm so we can be #3 ahead of Intel
2020-11-21T06:43:44Z aeth: Because at least like 70% of the work is TSMC
2020-11-21T06:44:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: I sort of wonder how much Apple's CPUs are tuned for their frameworks
2020-11-21T06:45:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Since everything is built on the Objective-C runtime (more or less), Apple devices are more like a Lisp Machine than most Linux devices
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2020-11-21T06:46:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, know that I have ABCL, time to try to port SBCL :)
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2020-11-21T06:48:26Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: I want to make a list of (reasonable, RISC-y) things to put in a Lisp-oriented extension to RISC-V.
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2020-11-21T06:53:57Z beach: no-defun-allowed: That's tricky stuff.
2020-11-21T06:54:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Javascript got its own CPU instruction
2020-11-21T06:54:45Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I have probably said this before, but my bet would be on some write barrier or read barrier.
2020-11-21T06:55:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: to optimize GC?
2020-11-21T06:55:21Z beach: Yeah.
2020-11-21T06:55:40Z beach: Everything else is fairly easy to do on any old modern architecture.
2020-11-21T06:56:56Z no-defun-allowed: That's usually done with the MMU, marking pages as read-only and trapping writes (for a write barrier), no?
2020-11-21T06:57:03Z no-defun-allowed: I guess it's still fiddly to do.
2020-11-21T06:57:11Z beach: no-defun-allowed: That is very costly.
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2020-11-21T06:57:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: The newest JVM GCs take advantage of the MMU in a clever way
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2020-11-21T06:58:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: a 64 bit pointer can address more memory than we'll ever have (probably)
2020-11-21T06:59:03Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: And what do you conclude from that observation?
2020-11-21T06:59:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, if I understand correctly, they reserve several bits for information about where the pointer points to
2020-11-21T06:59:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: and then map multiple addresses to one physical memory location
2020-11-21T07:00:03Z beach: Wow, so EQ would break?
2020-11-21T07:00:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess so, if EQ doesn't know about the trick
2020-11-21T07:00:31Z no-defun-allowed: You would have to normalize pointers before testing EQ.
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2020-11-21T07:00:38Z beach: Well, it means EQ would be more costly.
2020-11-21T07:01:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: You just compare the lower 42 bits of the pointers, it sounds like
2020-11-21T07:01:27Z no-defun-allowed: I recall a similar thing happens with Nettle's replicating copying collector, but it's worse as that normalization requires a memory read (to follow the forwarding pointer).
2020-11-21T07:01:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://www.opsian.com/blog/javas-new-zgc-is-very-exciting/
2020-11-21T07:02:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: The goal is to minimize pause time here
2020-11-21T07:02:11Z beach: Oh, that's easy.
2020-11-21T07:02:36Z no-defun-allowed: But in applicative languages like ML, which it was designed for, EQ supposedly is rarely used; though testing reference equality is favourable to testing structural equality.
2020-11-21T07:02:45Z beach: Just use a small per-thread nursery, and a concurrent global collector.
2020-11-21T07:03:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, this is how they're implementing the concurrent collector
2020-11-21T07:03:53Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Yes, there are tendencies like that, e.g. "Our language semantics makes everything expensive anyway, so using an inefficient mechanism here doesn't matter much".
2020-11-21T07:04:09Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: make CAR and CDR instructions again
2020-11-21T07:04:19Z beach: aeth: Absolutely not.
2020-11-21T07:04:24Z beach: That's a terrible idea.
2020-11-21T07:05:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd think some hardware acceleration for dynamic dispatch would be useful?
2020-11-21T07:05:31Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: We know how to do that now on stock hardware.
2020-11-21T07:06:03Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: I personally wouldn't make extensions unless you actually had real programs from real implementations running and profiled them and determined what the bottlenecks are that are addressable with new instructions rather than with better compilers
2020-11-21T07:07:05Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Absolutely.
2020-11-21T07:07:45Z aeth: I'm curious as to if e.g. making a 68 bit architecture with 4 tag bits might be the way to go, not for performance, but for 64-bit fixnums and unboxed double-float.
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2020-11-21T07:08:39Z no-defun-allowed: Now you have the problem of finding 68-bit memory. And you may want another bit for incremental marking.
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2020-11-21T07:09:46Z beach: It is entirely possible that any useful extension would not be RISC-y enough to be considered.
2020-11-21T07:10:18Z beach: I mean, they don't even have arithmetic overflow for integer ADD.
2020-11-21T07:10:49Z beach: So then, write a barrier would just be two comparisons.
2020-11-21T07:10:59Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I'm trying to find the ideas that would be sufficiently simple.
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2020-11-21T07:12:34Z beach: Maybe something that would help with inlining of generic functions.
2020-11-21T07:13:09Z beach: Not that I know what it would be.  I already know how to do it in a not-too-costly way.
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2020-11-21T07:29:00Z no-defun-allowed: Would inline caching be useful in Common Lisp?
2020-11-21T07:30:40Z beach: What do you mean by "inline caching"?
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2020-11-21T07:32:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: caching method dispatch at the call site?
2020-11-21T07:32:39Z no-defun-allowed: The code that calls a generic function would be replaced with a call to the last effective method (with a prologue that calls the generic function as usual, if the last method is no longer applicable).
2020-11-21T07:33:28Z beach: Hmm.
2020-11-21T07:33:40Z no-defun-allowed: It has been done on normal CPUs with Smalltalk, Self, Java and JavaScript at the least; so it may not be necessary to provide any processor support.
2020-11-21T07:34:33Z beach: The technique I was thinking of consists of using type information in the caller to create a call-site-specific discriminating function, and change it when the generic-function changes.
2020-11-21T07:34:49Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2020-11-21T07:34:51Z beach: But your suggestion is different.
2020-11-21T07:35:13Z beach: ... since it takes run-time information into account.
2020-11-21T07:35:59Z no-defun-allowed: The polymorphic inline cache described in <https://bibliography.selflanguage.org/_static/pics.pdf> is a bit closer to your technique, but it still picks the most common methods from runtime information.
2020-11-21T07:36:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, this is how the JVM dispatches
2020-11-21T07:38:31Z no-defun-allowed: The only support that needs is that you need to be able to overwrite the call site, but that's not a big deal; and also doable on stock hardware.
2020-11-21T07:40:25Z beach: It is, yes.
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2020-11-21T07:48:44Z no-defun-allowed: The one idea I have which may be better done in hardware (which gilberth gave me) is computing the address of an element in arrays of different element types when performing a generic AREF. (SBCL calls that "hairy", which is much more fun to say than "generic" though.)
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2020-11-21T07:55:43Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: the lookup process should be called shaving
2020-11-21T07:58:49Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I am thinking that things like AREF and CAR/CDR are usually done in a loop.  So then, it is possible to make the type of the object a loop invariant.
2020-11-21T07:59:04Z no-defun-allowed: That is true, yes.
2020-11-21T07:59:22Z beach: I am not sure it is worthwhile trying to optimize single accesses.
2020-11-21T08:00:34Z beach: Plus, application writers who care that much about performance would stick in a type declaration that could then be verified quite easily.
2020-11-21T08:02:23Z beach: Speaking of which, I am convinced that Common Lisp implementations and their compilers are full of "optimizations" that are basically useless.
2020-11-21T08:02:33Z aeth: all compilers are
2020-11-21T08:02:47Z beach: But I don't care about the others.
2020-11-21T08:02:54Z beach: The representation of NIL in SBCL comes to mind.
2020-11-21T08:02:58Z aeth: I guess the issue is that basically useless optimizations can add up.
2020-11-21T08:03:25Z beach: They add up in that they often make the system harder to maintain.
2020-11-21T08:04:20Z beach: In the case of SBCL NIL, it makes it necessary to do two tests in a loop over a list, rather than a single test, in order to determine the end.
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2020-11-21T08:04:42Z beach: And that special case I am guessing is present in a lot of places in SBCL.
2020-11-21T08:05:14Z beach: Though stassats assures me that there is no performance penalty for making two tests rather than one.
2020-11-21T08:07:18Z aeth: What I'm more concerned about that maintenance is compilation times. A lot of compilers are incredibly slow to get that extra speedup at the end, and it's questionable if it's worth it, especially if you translate that sort of approach to a CL compiler, which will be compiling more. (Yes, CL has optimization levels, but they're not that flexible)
2020-11-21T08:07:31Z aeth: s/that maintenance/than maintenance/
2020-11-21T08:08:05Z aeth: People have complained about SBCL compilation times, but I don't really see that, except with a few edge case libraries (is Ironclad still really slow?)
2020-11-21T08:08:15Z beach: I have the exact opposite assessment.
2020-11-21T08:08:55Z beach: Especially for Common Lisp where the maintenance burden is a real problem, given the limited resources we have.
2020-11-21T08:10:03Z moon-child: what's sbcl's nil representation?
2020-11-21T08:10:19Z moon-child: is it a global (nil . nil)?
2020-11-21T08:10:23Z beach: It is represented so that you can take the CAR/CDR of it and get NIL.
2020-11-21T08:10:35Z beach: But it is obviously also a symbol.
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2020-11-21T08:19:58Z pfdietz: You don't want to make the generated code for car and cdr check if the thing is nil.  That way lies madness.   So what's the alternative?
2020-11-21T08:21:49Z pfdietz: You do car and cdr a lot in a lisp program, much more than you do symbol-name, symbol-plist, symbol-value, (typep ... 'symbol), etc.
2020-11-21T08:23:04Z beach: I claim it is not madness and that most CAR/CDRs are done in loops so the test has to be made anyway.
2020-11-21T08:23:50Z beach: And you still have to test for non-NIL atoms anyway.
2020-11-21T08:24:27Z beach: So a single test for CONSP is almost always going to be TRUE which is the same number of tests you need in order to check for non-NIL atoms.
2020-11-21T08:28:04Z beach: But the thing that bothers me is that "optimizations" like this are put in as a result of intuition, and we know for a fact that our intuitions are frequently wrong when it comes to performance bottlenecks.
2020-11-21T08:28:33Z beach: And as a result we have, like I said, systems that are harder to maintain without any good reason for it.
2020-11-21T08:29:44Z aeth: I never directly call car or cdr... destructuring-bind is almost always the better solution.
2020-11-21T08:30:04Z beach: And what do you think destructuring-bind does?
2020-11-21T08:30:21Z aeth: whatever the compiler wants it to do :-)
2020-11-21T08:30:34Z aeth: maybe it has an unsafe %car and %cdr
2020-11-21T08:31:02Z beach: That would be a violation of semantics.
2020-11-21T08:31:34Z pfdietz: (destructuring-bind (a . b) nil ...) ==> error
2020-11-21T08:32:00Z beach: Oh?
2020-11-21T08:32:14Z beach: Sorry about that.
2020-11-21T08:33:01Z beach: But the same number of tests have to be made.
2020-11-21T08:34:44Z beach: So it can't use an "unsafe" version of CAR and CDR anyway.
2020-11-21T08:35:22Z pfdietz: Admittedly, the spec is not clear on exactly what that case is supposed to do.
2020-11-21T08:35:41Z beach: Yeah, I am reading the Common Lisp HyperSpec page now.
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2020-11-21T08:36:38Z pfdietz: "it's just like a macro lambda list"  (looks) "the pattern is a sample object of the type to be decomposed."
2020-11-21T08:40:37Z pfdietz: I think we can safely criticize the language definition about this, though.  It would have been ok for car/cdr of nil to be an error.  I think this was inherited from Interlisp when CL was being defined.   For that matter, punning () and false is also bad.
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2020-11-21T08:44:09Z beach: Note to self: specify the behavior of destructuring-bind in WSCL.
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2020-11-21T08:48:16Z pfdietz: I see about 26000 occurrences of car in quicklisp.  Picking a few at random, they don't seem to be in loops, at least not in tight ones.    On the other hand that's not all that many tests to add, especially if many could be optimized out anyway.  Real data on the impact would be interesting.
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2020-11-21T08:48:50Z beach: And, like I said, even if it is not in a loop, you still need to test for non-NIL atoms.
2020-11-21T08:48:57Z pfdietz: That's just from a simple grep; it ignores implicit car/car from destructuring or looping forms.
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2020-11-21T08:49:41Z pfdietz: If you just want an error to be signaled in that case you don't need an explicit check.
2020-11-21T08:50:04Z beach: You suggest trapping on unaligned memory accesses?
2020-11-21T08:50:22Z pfdietz: Yes, I believe that's what happens.
2020-11-21T08:50:28Z pfdietz: (in sbcl)
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2020-11-21T08:51:09Z beach: I suppose you could do that, sure.
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2020-11-21T08:51:53Z beach: The CAR/CDRs in loops would not be explicit though.
2020-11-21T08:52:06Z beach: They would be in (loop for element in list do...)
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2020-11-21T08:52:11Z pfdietz: Right
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2020-11-21T08:52:40Z phoe: pfdietz: (loop for (a b c) in list ...) has implicit CAR/CDRs
2020-11-21T08:52:44Z beach: And even more implicit in MAPxxx.
2020-11-21T08:52:45Z pfdietz: Also mapcar and the like, and iterate.
2020-11-21T08:52:55Z beach: Yep.
2020-11-21T08:53:01Z phoe: a lot of list accesses are hidden like that
2020-11-21T08:53:38Z phoe: also all sequence operations have implicit car/cdr calls when called with list arguments
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2020-11-21T08:54:02Z beach: That too.
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2020-11-21T09:00:08Z pfdietz: assoc is interesting.  The spec explicitly says that a nil in an alist is ignored by assoc (and assoc-if, assoc-if-not).   So (assoc nil '(nil (nil . a))) ==> (nil . a)
2020-11-21T09:00:44Z phoe: this seems like a malfomed alist to me anyway
2020-11-21T09:00:53Z phoe: you shouldn't have an atom in a list of conses
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2020-11-21T09:03:51Z pfdietz: cons n.v. 1. n. a compound data object having two components called the car and the cdr.
2020-11-21T09:03:58Z pfdietz: So, is nil a cons?
2020-11-21T09:04:17Z pfdietz: It has a car and a cdr.
2020-11-21T09:05:35Z pfdietz: But it is not of type cons.
2020-11-21T09:05:48Z pfdietz: Or should it be?
2020-11-21T09:06:27Z phoe: it won't be an atom then
2020-11-21T09:06:50Z phoe: which means that we'll have a single symbol that is magically not an atom
2020-11-21T09:07:07Z beach: I don't think it "has a car and a cdr".
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2020-11-21T09:07:34Z beach: I think CAR and CDR are just defined to return something when applied to NIL.
2020-11-21T09:07:44Z phoe: ^
2020-11-21T09:08:18Z phoe: beach: but, under the hood, you know...
2020-11-21T09:08:21Z phoe: "On PPC32 and X86-64, NIL is basically a weird CONS cell that straddles two doublenodes; the tag of NIL is unique and congruent modulo 4 (modulo 8 on 64-bit) with the tag used for CONS cells."
2020-11-21T09:08:24Z pfdietz: "The types cons, symbol, array, number, character, hash-table, function, readtable, package, pathname, stream, random-state, condition, restart, and any single other type created by defstruct, define-condition, or defclass are pairwise disjoint"
2020-11-21T09:08:25Z phoe: that's from the CCL manual ;)
2020-11-21T09:08:49Z pfdietz: clhs 4.2.2
2020-11-21T09:08:49Z specbot: Type Relationships: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_bb.htm
2020-11-21T09:09:13Z beach: phoe: That's the kind of "optimization" I was referring to earlier in this discussion.
2020-11-21T09:09:17Z pfdietz: So nil cannot be of type cons.
2020-11-21T09:09:27Z beach: phoe: Thanks for confirming that CCL has it as well.
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2020-11-21T09:10:54Z pfdietz: So: the question becomes what is the actual impact of this design choice, vs. adding a check at each car/cdr.  I suppose one could also trap car/car on nil and insert do the right thing in the trap handler.
2020-11-21T09:11:54Z pfdietz: s/insert //
2020-11-21T09:12:21Z beach: And I think the main impact is an increased maintenance burden.  Especially since modern Common Lisp code uses standard objects where in the past lists were used.
2020-11-21T09:13:50Z phoe: well, unless your internal representation somehow manages to handle NIL being both a symbol and a valid argument to CAR/CDR, checks need to be somewhere
2020-11-21T09:14:15Z phoe: either it's internally represented as an atom and therefore CAR/CDR need to check, or it's internally represented as a cons and symbol accessors need to check
2020-11-21T09:14:16Z pfdietz: I wonder how ABCL does it.
2020-11-21T09:14:31Z phoe: or maybe there's yet another creative way to handle this
2020-11-21T09:14:32Z beach: So it is entirely possible that using a sub-optimal algorithm for generic dispatch is going to be much more detrimental to performance than having an explicit CONSP test.
2020-11-21T09:15:06Z beach: phoe: Did you read the previous conversation?
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2020-11-21T09:15:09Z pfdietz: Surely inlining the test like that makes sense here.   car/cdr are not extensible with new methods, after all.
2020-11-21T09:15:18Z phoe: beach: yes
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2020-11-21T09:16:27Z beach: pfdietz: That's not what I meant.  I meant that, with a limited amount of person-power for maintenance, it would be wise to add complication where they have the most positive impact on performance.
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2020-11-21T09:17:51Z beach: But I can also see how design choices like this were made when the implementation was a CLtL1 implementation so that lists were used a lot more than they are these days.
2020-11-21T09:17:56Z pfdietz: Sure.   I was just wondering what the increased maintenance burden is buying, with reference to actual code in quicklisp.  If it's not much, your argument becomes strong.
2020-11-21T09:18:35Z beach: Right.  But we have no way of measuring this.  We have to rely on imperfect intuition.
2020-11-21T09:18:53Z beach: We could try to measure the performance impact, of course.
2020-11-21T09:18:56Z phoe: unless we have some sort of an implementation that we can modify and then benchmark on code
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2020-11-21T09:19:00Z phoe: right
2020-11-21T09:19:59Z phoe: by "code" I mean both synthetic benchmarks that measure the performance impacts of raw operation and real applications that do little/moderate/lots of cons operations
2020-11-21T09:20:05Z phoe: s/operation/operations/
2020-11-21T09:23:00Z pfdietz: One could shadow car/car in your code's packages (and, perhaps, library packages) with something that is inlined and does the checks, and see what effect that has.
2020-11-21T09:23:31Z pfdietz: To handle all the libraries, use a macroexpand hook to intercept defpackage and add the shadowing.
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2020-11-21T09:23:56Z pfdietz: (and cadr, etc.)
2020-11-21T09:25:32Z pfdietz: This would not handle car/cdr introduced in loops and mapping form, but as Beach argued those should not matter.
2020-11-21T09:26:19Z phoe: also destructuring
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2020-11-21T09:26:43Z pfdietz: But that's throwing an error in sbcl in that case, not doing car/cdr through nil.
2020-11-21T09:26:58Z pfdietz: destructuring-bind at least
2020-11-21T09:27:20Z phoe: yes, but those use cons operations too, and therefore need to make checks anyway
2020-11-21T09:27:41Z phoe: is destructuring-bind using a different kind of CAR than everything else?
2020-11-21T09:27:42Z pfdietz: Hmm.   The destructing in LOOP *does* go through NIL.
2020-11-21T09:28:01Z phoe: or does it just perform CONSP checks to ensure list lengths?
2020-11-21T09:28:07Z phoe: I assume the latter
2020-11-21T09:28:25Z pfdietz: (loop for (a . b) in '(nil) collect a collect b) ==> (nil nil)
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2020-11-21T09:29:58Z aeth: the destructuring in LOOP is useless ime
2020-11-21T09:30:35Z aeth: I essentially always just destructuring-bind and setf because d-b handles the edge cases in the way I want, unlike LOOP's destructuring.
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2020-11-21T09:30:59Z ldbeth: just aware that the issue bothered me is due to namespace pollution of emacs lisp
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2020-11-21T09:31:16Z pfdietz: destructuring-bind macroexpands to code that invokes sb-c::check-ds-list and sb-c::check-ds-list/&rest.  I hope those are inlined.
2020-11-21T09:33:46Z Demosthenex: so i'm tinkering with clsql and the [] notation for sql, but emacs paredit isn't recoginzing those and indentation is a problem. any suggestions?
2020-11-21T09:34:53Z pfdietz: You can add hints for paredit.
2020-11-21T09:34:54Z beach: phoe: As I recall, in SBCL CONSP requires two tests, like LIST and not NULL.
2020-11-21T09:35:24Z phoe: pfdietz: they are not
2020-11-21T09:35:57Z pfdietz: Hmm.
2020-11-21T09:35:59Z phoe: pfdietz: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2161#2161
2020-11-21T09:36:12Z phoe: I would not expect this on the stack trace if it was inlines
2020-11-21T09:36:16Z ldbeth: Demosthenex: do you want paredit to tread [] as a pair of bracket or just an token?
2020-11-21T09:36:16Z phoe: inlined*
2020-11-21T09:36:35Z pfdietz: Yes, and disassemble shows the call is there.
2020-11-21T09:36:45Z Demosthenex: ldbeth: [] should be treated like any other ()'s
2020-11-21T09:38:03Z pfdietz: I have [ and ] mapped to paredit-open-parenthesis / paredit-close-parenthesis in the paredit-mode-map, but I use curry-compose-reader-macros where [ and ] represent function composition.
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2020-11-21T09:42:48Z ldbeth: Demosthenex: I guess you might want some behavior from emacs-lisp-mode
2020-11-21T09:43:06Z pfdietz: ISLISP does not have (car nil) and (cdr nil) being valid.   It's mostly historical at this point, though.
2020-11-21T09:45:15Z ldbeth: Demosthenex: https://github.com/cireu/sly-el-indent here's some hack on sly (SLIME) to indent emacs lisp code, you might want to see if thoses hacks apply to your problem
2020-11-21T09:46:04Z ldbeth: pfdietz: neither Scheme treat '() as pair
2020-11-21T09:46:39Z pfdietz: Right
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2020-11-21T09:48:37Z ldbeth: It could be confusing (cdr nil) and (car nil) are nil while (cons nil nil) is (nil)
2020-11-21T09:48:50Z pfdietz: trivia:ematch seems to generate faster code that destructuring-bind, for equivalent forms.
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2020-11-21T09:59:54Z pfdietz: (scrolling up) The inlining of dispatch is made more exciting by the possibility that classes and methods can be dynamically modified.   What if you need to recompile a function to reflect these changes while a call to that function is on the stack?
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2020-11-21T10:00:47Z beach: Exciting indeed.
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2020-11-21T10:03:02Z pfdietz: I figure you want to compile such functions with some sort of standardized stack frame, so you can return back to an unoptimized, or differently optimized, version of it if that happens.
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2020-11-21T10:03:26Z aeth: pfdietz: I think, in general, you want to be fast assuming no dynamic redefinitions, although obviously permit the slow path to happen
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2020-11-21T10:03:46Z aeth: most dynamic redefinitions will be user-defined, and infrequent, at least if you're assuming e.g. running in aloop
2020-11-21T10:04:24Z aeth: I do wonder how much of this is handled by CPU's branch prediction these days, though.
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2020-11-21T10:06:06Z no-defun-allowed: The dispatch has been done, so it's handled as per usual.
2020-11-21T10:06:42Z no-defun-allowed: self
2020-11-21T10:07:01Z no-defun-allowed: Amazing, I was looking to see if Self had come up in #lisp before. Someone didn't reach for the search button.
2020-11-21T10:10:09Z no-defun-allowed: Perhaps it's too late for #lisp-ing, but I needed something to do while rebuilding SBCL with the higher internal-time-units-per-second so I can get less-than-awful variance with metering.
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2020-11-21T10:21:57Z phoe: well, I am working on that implementation of arrows of mine with full SETF support
2020-11-21T10:22:08Z phoe: I think I finally understood setf expansions
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2020-11-21T10:32:06Z phoe: is there a list of symbols from the CL package naming valid places somewhere?
2020-11-21T10:33:24Z beach: clhs 5.1.2
2020-11-21T10:33:24Z specbot: Kinds of Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_ab.htm
2020-11-21T10:33:26Z beach: maybe?
2020-11-21T10:34:10Z phoe: not really like that
2020-11-21T10:34:25Z phoe: I am toying around with SETF expansions
2020-11-21T10:34:50Z phoe: let me think if what I am doing makes sense though
2020-11-21T10:35:46Z beach: 5.1.2.2 has a long list of Common Lisp function names that can be used with setf.
2020-11-21T10:36:08Z beach: Not that either, huh?
2020-11-21T10:36:12Z beach: Oh well.
2020-11-21T10:36:31Z phoe: oh!
2020-11-21T10:36:36Z phoe: 5.1.2.2 is a good resource
2020-11-21T10:36:51Z phoe: but I won't use it, because I just realized that I was trying to do something that did not make sense in general
2020-11-21T10:38:01Z beach: Fair enough.
2020-11-21T10:38:01Z phoe: thanks though, I'll try to remember 5.1.2.2
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2020-11-21T10:58:41Z Demosthenex: actually, i don't need paredit support for []s. just indent.
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2020-11-21T11:02:59Z phoe: TIL that &whole is permitted not just at the toplevel of a destructuring lambda-list
2020-11-21T11:03:36Z phoe: e.g. (destructuring-bind (x y z (&whole w a b c)) ...)
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2020-11-21T11:06:28Z phoe: oh shit
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2020-11-21T11:07:35Z phoe: tired: (let* ((a 42) (b (1+ a))) (list a b))
2020-11-21T11:07:38Z phoe: wired: (destructuring-bind (&aux (a 42) (b (1+ a))) '() (list a b))
2020-11-21T11:08:44Z phoe: so equality checks can be performed on &aux
2020-11-21T11:09:43Z beach: What do you mean?
2020-11-21T11:10:15Z phoe: uh - sorry, scratch this last line
2020-11-21T11:10:26Z beach: Done!
2020-11-21T11:10:34Z aeth: phoe: In my Lisp, let* will just expand to destructuring-bind with an &aux since having both is unnecessary!
2020-11-21T11:10:35Z phoe: thanks!
2020-11-21T11:10:48Z phoe: ;; I thought I was on #lispcafe
2020-11-21T11:10:55Z phoe: ;; but instead I posted to #lisp
2020-11-21T11:11:24Z aeth: ;; my joke has been moved as well
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2020-11-21T11:17:27Z phoe: Is there a portable implementation of destructuring lambda list parser somewhere?
2020-11-21T11:17:51Z phoe: beach: have you perhaps written such a thing as a part of SICL?
2020-11-21T11:18:38Z phoe: yes, it seems so
2020-11-21T11:18:42Z phoe: thanks :)
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2020-11-21T17:20:09Z Josh_2: I have subclassed hunchentoot:acceptor and written a version oh acceptor-dispatch-request, is it possible to also use the default method ie (define-easy-handler ..) as well? currently I can only create new routes with the mechanism I have created, ideally I'd like both
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2020-11-21T17:29:11Z gothnbass: Josh_2:  I'm working on some code involving a subclass of acceptor myself right now, and... probably? To ask the annoyingly dumb question, what happens when you try it?
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2020-11-21T17:30:33Z gothnbass: My use-case is relatively simple, though, so I just (setf tbnl:*dispatch-table* (list (create-regex-dispatcher "/url" 'function)...))
2020-11-21T17:31:13Z Josh_2: hmm
2020-11-21T17:32:14Z Josh_2: I might be able to modify my new route system to simply add a route like that to *dispatch-table*
2020-11-21T17:32:29Z gothnbass: OTOH, if you have any tips about round-tripping Unicode from Drakma to Neo4j and back, I'd love to hear 'em. Thought I'd solved it by handing Drakma a :content parameter to force it to pass through some pre-encoded data, but I'd swear Neo4j is mangling it, so I'm closing on table-flip.
2020-11-21T17:32:36Z Josh_2: when I use (define-easy-handler ..) I simply get a 404
2020-11-21T17:33:12Z gothnbass: Damn.
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2020-11-21T17:44:33Z Josh_2: ah
2020-11-21T17:44:41Z Josh_2: maybe I need to subclass easy-acceptor instead idk
2020-11-21T17:44:44Z Josh_2: lemme see
2020-11-21T17:45:48Z Josh_2: ye
2020-11-21T17:45:49Z Josh_2: that works :P
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2020-11-21T18:00:09Z gothnbass: Yay! I helped somebody!
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2020-11-21T18:00:55Z gothnbass: Aaand it's dinner-time.
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2020-11-21T20:15:29Z phoe: is there a way to tell if a form names a legal place?
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2020-11-21T20:17:11Z _death: is FOO a legal place?
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2020-11-21T20:18:15Z phoe: this is an equivalent form of my question
2020-11-21T20:18:48Z phoe reads into 5.1.2 some more
2020-11-21T20:19:02Z oni-on-ion: get-setf-expansion  ?
2020-11-21T20:19:10Z _death: what I mean is that it's not clear to me what a "legal place" should mean
2020-11-21T20:19:25Z phoe: hmmm
2020-11-21T20:19:28Z White_Flame: a lexical variable name is a legal place
2020-11-21T20:19:39Z phoe: White_Flame: FOO can name a symbol macro though
2020-11-21T20:20:00Z White_Flame: right, it definitely interacts with the environment
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2020-11-22T04:05:20Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-22T04:43:49Z Oladon: Good morning, beach!
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2020-11-22T04:48:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Morning!
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2020-11-22T09:12:54Z I729: good morning also
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2020-11-22T09:14:47Z beach: Hello I729.  Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-11-22T09:15:22Z I729: ah yes, I recently joined some days ago (as lotuseater)
2020-11-22T09:15:47Z beach: Ah, new nick.  I recognize lotuseater.
2020-11-22T09:15:57Z I729: don't worry I'm here to share lisp thoughts
2020-11-22T09:16:16Z beach: I wasn't planning to worry.
2020-11-22T09:17:07Z I729: okay. and here it is 10:16am :)
2020-11-22T09:18:13Z I729: and my nick comes from the anecdote of Hardy and Ramanujan with the taxicab numbers
2020-11-22T09:18:34Z beach: Nice.  I missed it.
2020-11-22T09:18:46Z I729: what execatly?
2020-11-22T09:18:50Z I729: *exactly
2020-11-22T09:18:58Z beach: The reference.
2020-11-22T09:19:22Z I729: 1729 = 1^3 + 12^3 = 9^3 + 10^3
2020-11-22T09:19:59Z I729: but I think query would be better I don't want to get people grumpy here
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2020-11-22T09:35:14Z I729: I had to learn experimentally that if you do something like (make-array 3 :element-type '(integer 0 99)) also numbers up to 127 are allowed (which makes sense)
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2020-11-22T09:35:40Z beach: That depends on the implementation.
2020-11-22T09:35:46Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think they really are allowed, but the implementation won't check.
2020-11-22T09:36:05Z I729: I see. SBCL here
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2020-11-22T09:36:24Z I729: no-defun-allowed yes or this way
2020-11-22T09:37:06Z I729: I'll try how about with make-array of cl21
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2020-11-22T09:37:14Z no-defun-allowed: (upgraded-array-element-type '(integer 0 99)) ⇒ (UNSIGNED-BYTE 7)
2020-11-22T09:37:24Z beach: clhs u-a-e-t
2020-11-22T09:37:24Z specbot: upgraded-array-element-type: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgr_1.htm
2020-11-22T09:37:33Z no-defun-allowed: I don't particuarly like CL21, but it won't change how arrays work.
2020-11-22T09:38:03Z beach: Is CL21 Fukamachi's work?
2020-11-22T09:38:05Z oni-on-ion: afaik SBCL has strictness levels
2020-11-22T09:38:27Z I729: yes you're right. some things of CL21 seem nice
2020-11-22T09:38:34Z no-defun-allowed: I'd have to check.
2020-11-22T09:38:51Z beach is not sure about the western spelling of his name.
2020-11-22T09:38:53Z I729: oni-on-ion please tell more
2020-11-22T09:39:21Z I729: so beach from which country are you from?
2020-11-22T09:39:33Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: It doesn't seem likely that the compiler will detect anything, if it upgrades the element type. Then a program that uses the array of that upgraded element type as suggested would work, but it's highly dependent on how types are upgraded.
2020-11-22T09:39:46Z beach: I729: That question is a very hard one for me.
2020-11-22T09:40:04Z I729: oh sorry
2020-11-22T09:40:09Z beach: I729: "I live in France" is the closest to an answer you will get.
2020-11-22T09:40:22Z I729: cool. I live in Germany
2020-11-22T09:40:35Z beach: Good for you.
2020-11-22T09:41:30Z I729: no-defun-allowed my thought with make-array was that it can just use byte lengths
2020-11-22T09:41:31Z oni-on-ion: i do not know about upgraded types, but aeth knows more of [sb]CL typing than I
2020-11-22T09:41:45Z I729: beach why do you mean?
2020-11-22T09:42:09Z oni-on-ion: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Handling-of-Types
2020-11-22T09:42:19Z beach: I729: I like Germany.  Or at least the places I have visited.  But it's off topic.
2020-11-22T09:42:20Z no-defun-allowed: For example, I like having ELT, AREF and NTH because they communicate the complexity to the reader (AREF is O(1), NTH is O(n), ELT could be either) and as opposed to some names I've heard people puke out at university, long names are actually readable.
2020-11-22T09:43:53Z no-defun-allowed: But there are some fair points, like how GETF and GETHASH take arguments in different ways. And regular expression literals are hard (but we have CL-INTERPOL for regular expression literal syntax. And it's not my regular expression library.)
2020-11-22T09:44:07Z I729: yes but for some reason AREF with multiple dimension vectors is slower
2020-11-22T09:44:38Z no-defun-allowed: Vectors are single-dimension arrays. Multiple dimensional vectors don't exist.
2020-11-22T09:45:07Z I729: or when you use the "#(" readmacro normal you do #(A B C) but in CL21 you can just if it is bound
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2020-11-22T09:45:21Z I729: sorry my fault you're right :D
2020-11-22T09:45:35Z I729: arrays I meant
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2020-11-22T09:48:13Z no-defun-allowed: The first two commits I see are "Delete 'ed', 'room' and 'dribble' because they look useless." and "add standard-char to etypecase with convenience wrapper [as the splitting pattern for RE-SPLIT]". I use ROOM very frequently, and STANDARD-CHAR is _absolutely_ the wrong type to use.
2020-11-22T09:49:07Z no-defun-allowed: Try (typep #\¬ 'standard-char) — I would not expect to be able to split on #\Space, but not split on #\¬, even though I may rarely do the latter.
2020-11-22T09:50:40Z no-defun-allowed: I'm too good at complaining, so I'll stop there. But I don't think you should rely on how an element type is upgraded; and so if you give the element type (integer 0 99) to MAKE-ARRAY, don't try to put values that aren't (integer 0 99) into that array.
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2020-11-22T09:51:34Z I729: okay
2020-11-22T09:55:58Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Silly question, would ROOM tell you how much disk space you have used on CLOSOS?
2020-11-22T09:56:52Z I729: oh cool something like Mezzano
2020-11-22T09:57:51Z no-defun-allowed: I'm terribly sorry that it's probably a boring question.
2020-11-22T09:58:07Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I haven't given it much thought, but I suppose so, yes.
2020-11-22T09:58:26Z no-defun-allowed: Heh.
2020-11-22T09:59:02Z beach: It will be very tricky to implement in a way that it gives any useful information.
2020-11-22T09:59:31Z moon-child: modulo buffering and fragmentation, presumably?
2020-11-22T09:59:55Z beach: Stuff like that.
2020-11-22T10:01:10Z moon-child: (though of course purely in-memory allocators have fragmentation too.  And buffered but as-yet unwritten data can still be considered part of an application's footprint.  So it may not be worth covering those two in particular.)
2020-11-22T10:01:46Z no-defun-allowed: (But DRIBBLE and ED would be very handy; you'd have somewhat more permanent REPL logs, and with a nice environment ED, well, brings up an editor quickly. I think it says something if they're useless in a "modern" context.)
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2020-11-22T10:04:11Z I729: what does ED do? and I see *ed-functions*
2020-11-22T10:04:37Z no-defun-allowed: clhs ed
2020-11-22T10:04:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ed.htm
2020-11-22T10:04:53Z I729: ah yes of course
2020-11-22T10:05:06Z no-defun-allowed: It brings up an editor on a pathname or the site of a function definition.
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2020-11-22T10:17:52Z I729: and no silly question, thanks, I now found this paper on OSes
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2020-11-22T11:52:32Z srji: whats the "f" in (setf ..) means? ist it "set form"?
2020-11-22T11:53:07Z I729: good question *hmm*
2020-11-22T11:53:56Z srji: it seems everything has a meaning in lisp e.g. setq means set quote and "p" is a predicate
2020-11-22T11:55:00Z I729: yes, the committee invested much in designing it but also some is historically like CAR and CDR
2020-11-22T11:59:17Z srji: the internet says it means forms or field
2020-11-22T12:00:41Z I729: this generic setter idea is great
2020-11-22T12:05:41Z I729: srji did you already know PSETF and PSETQ?
2020-11-22T12:05:49Z srji: no
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2020-11-22T12:10:17Z I729: those are the parallel versions, because in a SETQ you can set not just one parameter, but many, evaluated from left to right
2020-11-22T12:11:08Z srji: i see
2020-11-22T12:11:24Z srji: and setf can evaluate forms
2020-11-22T12:11:37Z I729: so (defvar x 1) and then (setq x 2 y (* x x)) gives y = 4 but (psetq x 2 y (* x x)) is y = 1
2020-11-22T12:11:43Z I729: yes right
2020-11-22T12:12:05Z I729: it expands the getter to a setter form
2020-11-22T12:12:26Z I729: as a function for eg AREF you have #'(SETF AREF)
2020-11-22T12:13:08Z I729: but in defstruct or defclass they are created so you don't have to bother
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2020-11-22T12:45:55Z edgar-rft: If I remeber right (but I might be wrong) then SETF appeared when arrays came to Lisp somewhere in the 1960s, and at that time it was an acronym for SET Field (of an array) as some sort of syntactic counterpart to AREF. Because SETF was implemented as a macro it was later expanded to SET other places, too, including symbols, what means that today it can even be used instead of SETQ.
2020-11-22T12:47:01Z edgar-rft: Many books today teach to use SETF instead of SETQ to avoid confusuion.
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2020-11-22T12:54:01Z I729: yes it macroexpands then to setq
2020-11-22T12:58:09Z I729: do you also know what THE stands for?
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2020-11-22T13:11:32Z edgar-rft: In Common Lisp THE emphasizes that something is of a specific data type. (the fixnum 42) might signal an error if 42 is a float. Makes of course more sense if used with variables.
2020-11-22T13:11:45Z phoe: THE is a type promise to the compiler
2020-11-22T13:11:47Z I729: i knew that
2020-11-22T13:12:03Z I729: but what the name stands for
2020-11-22T13:12:14Z phoe: the english "the"
2020-11-22T13:12:26Z I729: hmm ok
2020-11-22T13:12:39Z I729: so also a promise for optimizing?
2020-11-22T13:12:43Z phoe: yes
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2020-11-22T13:13:46Z phoe: if DECLARE TYPE is for variables, then THE is for values
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2020-11-22T13:15:12Z I729: aha!
2020-11-22T13:15:29Z I729: there is this quote "only values have types not variables"
2020-11-22T13:16:05Z edgar-rft: phoe: thanks, I had the feeling that something was missing :-)
2020-11-22T13:16:32Z phoe: edgar-rft: what exactly do you mean?
2020-11-22T13:16:42Z phoe: I729: by default this is true in Lisp
2020-11-22T13:17:00Z edgar-rft: phoe: DECLARE is for variables, not THE
2020-11-22T13:17:08Z phoe: but you can go from strong dynamic typing into weak static typing - DECLARE TYPE and THE are tools for the job
2020-11-22T13:17:36Z phoe: edgar-rft: I see
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2020-11-22T13:17:49Z edgar-rft: weak typing is what I do with my fingers :-)
2020-11-22T13:18:42Z I729: i know there is something on stackoverflow but for me with Haskell as my second main language I thought about how to make recursive algebraic data types
2020-11-22T13:18:52Z I729: hehe
2020-11-22T13:19:02Z phoe: that's undoable with the Lisp type system
2020-11-22T13:19:04Z I729: not to forget dependent typing *hide*
2020-11-22T13:19:21Z I729: phoe yes that it what I also found
2020-11-22T13:19:26Z phoe: Lisp types cannot refer to themselves because Lisp types are mostly based on set theory
2020-11-22T13:20:00Z I729: good to know, so with category theory it is possible
2020-11-22T13:20:39Z phoe: there is a loophole named SATSFIES that lets you do more creative things, but it comes at a cost - compilers cannot optimize those types well
2020-11-22T13:21:18Z edgar-rft wants types based on SETF theory :-)
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2020-11-22T13:21:40Z I729: but so well I don't know GHC as how it is done there. maybe one day
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2020-11-22T13:24:21Z phoe: it's just a different type theory
2020-11-22T13:24:32Z phoe: see https://github.com/stylewarning/coalton
2020-11-22T13:25:02Z I729: okay I can live with the aspect if it's not possible
2020-11-22T13:25:03Z phoe: coalton, among other things, implements ADTs in Lisp
2020-11-22T13:25:30Z I729: oh I had one time tried cl-algebraic-data-types
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2020-11-22T14:32:12Z Josh_2: afternoon
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2020-11-22T14:35:10Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-11-22T16:13:52Z Josh_2: Is an :around method called before the :before?
2020-11-22T16:14:28Z beach: Yes.
2020-11-22T16:14:51Z Josh_2: okay cool, just making sure
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2020-11-22T16:57:10Z flip214: with UIOP:launch-program, can I have arbitrary file handles passed on? Ie. create a socketpair or pipe and pass one end as FD 17 or whatever?
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2020-11-22T18:13:19Z etimmons: flip214: not portably. All implementations I'm aware of either close all extra file handles without a way to override (e.g., SBCL) or pass all of them on without a way to override (e.g., ECL)
2020-11-22T18:14:51Z etimmons: But if an implementation allows you to configure that, you can add the necessary keyword args to UIOP:LAUNCH-PROGRAM. It passes all unknown args through to the implementation, IIRC
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2020-11-23T00:07:22Z White_Flame: is (stream-external-format *standard-output*) supposed to not crash in SLIME?
2020-11-23T00:11:27Z mfiano: I don't use SLIME, but it seems to return :UTF-8 on Sly
2020-11-23T00:11:45Z no-defun-allowed: srji: Somewhat late, but SETF came from SETFQ, which was something like "set function quoted" as the "function" place you'd set would appear quoted like SETQ.
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2020-11-23T00:13:12Z lotuseater: no-defun-allowed no I remember :)
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2020-11-23T00:16:57Z White_Flame: it seems that :EXTERNAL-FORMAT is passed into the dispatcher, which then ends up in an ECASE looking for :STREAM-EXTERNAL-FORMAT, all in sbcl's main code
2020-11-23T00:19:36Z White_Flame: (this call is being made by some old code I'm running, but crashes standalone in a clean image under slime as well)
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2020-11-23T02:12:21Z dbotton: is there a way to disable assertions? (I can't seem to find a way on both ecl and sbcl)
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2020-11-23T02:13:43Z no-defun-allowed: Why do you want to do that?
2020-11-23T02:14:45Z dbotton: performance
2020-11-23T02:15:05Z dbotton: in most languages assertions are turned off on deliverables
2020-11-23T02:16:05Z dbotton: I assume that is why assert doesn't return the value of the form it evaluates.
2020-11-23T02:17:43Z no-defun-allowed: "Thus, rather than having the software discover its own errors in a benign way, the discovery of such errors is left to the FAA or a Congressional committee."
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2020-11-23T02:19:06Z no-defun-allowed: Hell, https://web.archive.org/web/20160321151425/www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/letters/CACM-DubiousAchievement.html (where I got the quote from) is even about assertions in Ada.
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2020-11-23T02:22:05Z dbotton: In theory once you have "proven" you application there is no reason to continue to run them.
2020-11-23T02:22:37Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, now prove it.
2020-11-23T02:22:59Z dbotton: In SPARK you do
2020-11-23T02:23:11Z no-defun-allowed: We don't have SPARK in Lisp.
2020-11-23T02:23:40Z dbotton: Not yet
2020-11-23T02:24:08Z dbotton: Although early versions did you Lisp of spark
2020-11-23T02:24:12Z dbotton: use
2020-11-23T02:24:23Z no-defun-allowed: They did now?
2020-11-23T02:24:59Z dbotton: Let me see if I can get the reference been awhile
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2020-11-23T02:25:59Z no-defun-allowed: There are theorem provers in Lisp, but they are far detached from Common Lisp. ACL2 doesn't even have higher order functions.
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2020-11-23T02:28:32Z moon-child: isn't the format used by most smt solvers a lisp dialect?
2020-11-23T02:28:41Z moon-child: it's sexpy at the very least
2020-11-23T02:28:46Z no-defun-allowed: Hilarious.
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2020-11-23T02:31:29Z dbotton: They used the Poplog environment
2020-11-23T02:32:59Z dbotton: Poplog Prolog was used to develop the original version of the SPARK toolkit by Praxis Systems, though they now use Sicstus Prolog, as that has features not in Poplog Prolog.
2020-11-23T02:33:09Z dbotton: I guess miskate was prolog
2020-11-23T02:33:28Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that verifies Ada, not Lisp.
2020-11-23T02:33:34Z dbotton: I know
2020-11-23T02:34:00Z no-defun-allowed: ACL2 is written in Common Lisp, but it verifies a sort of first order logic with numbers and lists.
2020-11-23T02:34:01Z dbotton: So I take it no way to turn off. Why then have it return nil?
2020-11-23T02:34:34Z no-defun-allowed: What else should it return?
2020-11-23T02:34:52Z dbotton: the value for the form it evaluated
2020-11-23T02:35:26Z dbotton: the for example check-type could be used on a return value etc.
2020-11-23T02:35:27Z no-defun-allowed: If that returns a generalised boolean, you should treat it as such. So it only would return true.
2020-11-23T02:35:51Z dbotton: (on ecl "the" doesn't do anything)
2020-11-23T02:36:15Z no-defun-allowed: "The consequences are undefined if the values yielded by the form are not of the type specified by value-type."
2020-11-23T02:36:26Z pillton: It isn't required to do anything.
2020-11-23T02:36:37Z dbotton: I know
2020-11-23T02:36:54Z dbotton: ecl is not broken
2020-11-23T02:37:41Z dbotton: Just had to make a macro to get the check-type functionality on the return type
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2020-11-23T02:46:24Z dbotton: On ecl does "the" have any purpose beyond indicating the intent of the return value to human readers?
2020-11-23T02:48:35Z no-defun-allowed: It may help with type inference.
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2020-11-23T04:05:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-11-23T04:09:25Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2020-11-23T11:51:06Z _death: cool, whatcha hacking?
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2020-11-23T11:59:11Z ldb: good evening
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2020-11-23T13:33:53Z pve: Hi! I would like to give instances of my generic function class a default "function". Is the correct place to do this in "initialize-instance :after ((gf my-gf-class) ... " using set-funcallable-instance-function?
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2020-11-23T13:43:23Z Bike: that would make sense to me.
2020-11-23T13:43:53Z phoe: yes, if you only want to do that during instance initialization
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2020-11-23T13:44:58Z pve: phoe: hmm, I mean I would just like it to exist until the first method is added
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2020-11-23T13:45:18Z phoe: pve: what after the first method is removed
2020-11-23T13:45:39Z pve: hmm, good point..
2020-11-23T13:46:05Z pve: It should revert to the "no methods" behaviour
2020-11-23T13:46:20Z pve: but that I can do separately
2020-11-23T13:46:28Z jackdaniel: so when you add /first/ method and /second/ method, and remove /first/ method.. :-)
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2020-11-23T13:46:30Z pve: when removing methods
2020-11-23T13:46:32Z phoe: sounds like you either need a general case for 0 methods or that you need to handle both cases, namely, in some sort of initialization code and then in your remove-method
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2020-11-23T13:47:26Z pve: phoe: exactly, I only asked because I'm having some problems getting it to work using initialize-instance :after
2020-11-23T13:48:06Z pve: jackdaniel: I only need to check for 0 methods
2020-11-23T13:48:06Z Bike: problems like what?
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2020-11-23T13:48:37Z jackdaniel: that was a joke
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2020-11-23T13:49:48Z pve: Bike: hmm actually if I replace the default function with something simple like (print 'hello) it does work.. so the problem is most likely elsewhere
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2020-11-23T13:52:41Z pve: the point of this is to improve my "does-not-understand" functionality which uses no-applicable-method, but it only seems to work when the gf has at least one method
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2020-11-23T13:58:41Z obnoxious_glenda: ugh, someone in #programming called lisp a broken toy left in the trash, leaving its stench off for ages
2020-11-23T13:59:09Z phoe: obnoxious_glenda: people arguing on the Internet, as always
2020-11-23T13:59:23Z obnoxious_glenda: some guy asked what programming lang he should start with
2020-11-23T13:59:29Z obnoxious_glenda: everyone went to war
2020-11-23T13:59:30Z obnoxious_glenda: as usual
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2020-11-23T13:59:42Z phoe: :D
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2020-11-23T14:00:30Z jackdaniel: well, that description comes nice with "lisp is not dead, it just smells funny" :)
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2020-11-23T14:10:22Z Demosthenex: ok, so i'm using clsql with sqlite, and trying to use the s expression based sql queries. i'm translating over some sql with subqueries, ie: select * from table1, (select * from tables2...) as subtable ...   and can't see how clsql supports subqueries?
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2020-11-23T14:41:10Z pve: ok now it works, also with remove-method.. thanks guys
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2020-11-23T15:29:31Z hhdave: Is anyone here looking for a Common Lisp programming job?
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2020-11-23T15:31:47Z phoe: hhdave: I assume yes; you might also post on /r/Lisp and /r/Common_Lisp and optionally ask Xach for publishing on Planet Lisp for more visibility
2020-11-23T15:31:54Z jackdaniel: generally speaking I'm sure that there are a few, but more details would make this question less vague
2020-11-23T15:32:14Z hhdave: I know, sorry...
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2020-11-23T15:32:53Z phoe: or you can link us here in #lisp towards the details of the job offer and I'll do my best to distribute it across other channels
2020-11-23T15:33:07Z hhdave: I work for a small Insurance MGA (https://github.com/Virtual-Insurance-Products) in Devon, England and we're in need of another CL programmer (at least 1). The previous guy we had left to do Rust programming.
2020-11-23T15:33:18Z hhdave: (https://insurevip.co.uk)
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2020-11-23T15:33:41Z hhdave: Remote would be ok. We're all working remotely almost all the time at the moment.
2020-11-23T15:35:20Z hhdave: We have a web based CL application which is accessed by many brokers across the country (mostly - we had/have some clients in Ireland and some in Poland too) selling niche insurance products.
2020-11-23T15:35:39Z jackdaniel: if you won't find someone full time, let me know -- I'm available at smaller capacity as a consultant
2020-11-23T15:35:44Z hhdave: I've been uploading some of the libraries it uses to that github page.
2020-11-23T15:36:23Z hhdave: @jackdaniel: that's great, thanks. Even if we do find someone it could be useful to have you as a standby in case there's suddenly loads of work. I am, in fact, really busy.
2020-11-23T15:36:46Z hhdave: (maybe that @ isn't applicable here).
2020-11-23T15:37:03Z obnoxious_glenda: irc :)
2020-11-23T15:37:09Z jackdaniel: it usually isn't :) I'll send you my email on query
2020-11-23T15:37:23Z hhdave: CLIM knowledge would certainly be relevant, though my 'CLIM' implementation stuff is probably a bit mad compared to proper McCLIM or such
2020-11-23T15:37:36Z hhdave: (https://github.com/Virtual-Insurance-Products/clim-web-demo)
2020-11-23T15:38:36Z hhdave: phoe: thanks. I'll try and get some more details...
2020-11-23T15:38:37Z jackdaniel: interesting, I'll take look at this repository later
2020-11-23T15:38:51Z jackdaniel: I have McCLIM renderer that outputs into html5 canvas
2020-11-23T15:39:10Z jackdaniel: (more a proof of concept than something usable though)
2020-11-23T15:39:16Z hhdave: Interesting. Is it just the renderer part?
2020-11-23T15:40:25Z hhdave: I'm using that clim-web stuff for most of the front end bits that I do nowadays. I've still hardly had time to play with real CLIM.
2020-11-23T15:40:26Z jackdaniel: it is a medium implementation that writes a html5 document
2020-11-23T15:40:59Z jackdaniel: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUsIcSkWAAI4GgA?format=png&name=large <- the first "window" (topmost)
2020-11-23T15:41:13Z jackdaniel: the second is xlib and the third is a framebuffer
2020-11-23T15:41:36Z jackdaniel: (this is a matrix I've used for checking various features the verify if they work)
2020-11-23T15:41:49Z hhdave: Does it, in any way, make sense to have a McCLIM renderer that could generate actual HTML? I know that wouldn't cover everything and a lot of graphical stuff would need the canvas, but would there be any way to make it work do you think? I know you were playing with TUI renderers or something weren't you?
2020-11-23T15:42:21Z jackdaniel: as I've said, the first "window" is the actual output in firefox
2020-11-23T15:42:26Z jackdaniel: it is html5 document generated from mcclim
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2020-11-23T15:43:03Z jackdaniel: it would also make sense to write something more interactive, but that would be much more work and would involve javascript
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2020-11-23T15:44:06Z jackdaniel: also scymtym wrote a broadway backend, that works over gtk protocol that is capable of running in the browser (afair), and that one is truly interactive
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2020-11-23T15:45:03Z jackdaniel: hhdave: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETaYietWkAAJUX5?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
2020-11-23T15:45:47Z hhdave: that /is/ cool.
2020-11-23T15:45:54Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2020-11-23T15:46:21Z jackdaniel: I'm currently working on a guide for backend writers
2020-11-23T15:46:38Z jackdaniel: so after cleaning up some McCLIM internals it will be much easier to write a backend
2020-11-23T15:47:56Z hhdave: I gathered (from #clim). Have you published it in its current state?
2020-11-23T15:48:48Z jackdaniel: I have submitted few pull requests that are byproducts of cleaning up internals
2020-11-23T15:49:47Z jackdaniel: there is not much written, but here is the part about the port: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/c404b66e-backend.org
2020-11-23T15:50:01Z hhdave: It's really great that there seems to be so much more interest in McCLIM these days. A few years ago, about the time I discovered it and started looking into it, it seemed all but abandoned.
2020-11-23T15:50:16Z phoe: hhdave: that was years ago :D
2020-11-23T15:50:35Z jackdaniel: beach kept maintaining it over the years
2020-11-23T15:50:39Z phoe: hhdave: please ping me with the details - I'll do the cross-posting later today, but I need to disappear now
2020-11-23T15:50:43Z hhdave: phoe: I know. Now it's all the rage.
2020-11-23T15:50:55Z hhdave: phoe: will do.
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2020-11-23T15:51:25Z hhdave: Good that he did.
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2020-11-23T15:53:17Z hhdave: What I would really like to do is to somehow replace (most of?) my 'strange' impementation of sort of CLIM with McCLIM and just make a backend (and whatever else is needed) to make it good for writing normal(ish) looking web applications Really Easily. I have almost no idea as to the feasibility of that though. I started off just adopting some of the ideas into my codebase, but then ended up gradually (and then less gradually) evolving it to be more 
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2020-11-23T15:55:06Z jackdaniel: I have more modest wishes - I'd like to have the coordinate swizzling removed soon-ish :)
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2020-11-23T17:59:32Z dbotton: Does anyone know what the built in packages "gray" and "walker" are in ecl? The manual is blank for them?
2020-11-23T18:00:43Z Alfr: Maybe Gray Streams for gray?
2020-11-23T18:03:18Z dbotton: Think so, the other ls "tree walker"
2020-11-23T18:03:29Z dbotton: Not sure what either is
2020-11-23T18:05:48Z Alfr: dbotton, Gray Streams is a rejected proposal for the standard, a number of implementations have it tough. http://www.nhplace.com/kent/CL/Issues/stream-definition-by-user.html
2020-11-23T18:06:52Z White_Flame: usually the walker goes through a source code form, distinguishing what's code vs data, what's a lexical variable name, etc
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2020-11-23T18:16:35Z jackdaniel: yes, walker is the code walker adapted to understand ecl specual firms
2020-11-23T18:16:59Z jackdaniel: gray is gray streams implementation package
2020-11-23T18:17:03Z phoe: lots of implementations have Gray streams
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2020-11-23T18:17:31Z jackdaniel: truvual-gray-streams us the preferred portability layer
2020-11-23T18:17:40Z phoe: http://portability.cl/ lists ABCL, ACL, CCL, Clasp, CLISP, ECL, LW, Mezzano, MOCL, and SBCL under t-g-s
2020-11-23T18:17:44Z jackdaniel: (on phone, hence typos)
2020-11-23T18:18:01Z White_Flame: s/u/i/g
2020-11-23T18:18:24Z White_Flame: need a regex bot
2020-11-23T18:19:57Z dbotton: Thanks
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2020-11-23T20:08:14Z pillton: I have released a new system called data-flow (https://github.com/markcox80/data-flow). It is intended for applications which are composed of small independent components/units which interact with each other via ports or events.
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2020-11-23T20:12:37Z White_Flame: pillton: interesting.  We have a pipeline scheme, which is pretty verbose.  This might do something similar
2020-11-23T20:13:28Z White_Flame: and of course, every library has its own threadpooling system.  It'd be nice for there to be a central threadpool for everything to compose into
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2020-11-23T20:16:32Z pillton: The system provides a scheduler which executes tasks if their resource requirements are satisfied. This should be fine to use with other systems.
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2020-11-23T20:16:55Z White_Flame: right, but many other systems have their own thread pool as well :)
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2020-11-23T20:17:13Z pillton: It doesn't matter if they do.
2020-11-23T20:17:15Z White_Flame: if both are busy, then there's more thread contention
2020-11-23T20:18:26Z White_Flame: I mean, the entire point of a threadpool is to better gracefully handle the case when there's too much in flight
2020-11-23T20:18:52Z White_Flame: so they don't stack well
2020-11-23T20:19:24Z pillton: Only if you're an application developer that has no idea what is executing.
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2020-11-23T20:20:11Z pillton: You could use the sequential scheduler for the application and use the threadpool of the other systems for the individual computations.
2020-11-23T20:21:11Z White_Flame: well, that means manual allocation of resources between your libraries & other threadpool domains
2020-11-23T20:21:28Z White_Flame: I'd think a single threadpool that everything's dumped into would be desirable
2020-11-23T20:22:09Z White_Flame: (similarly, if all p2p bandwidth controls were centralized into a single system-wide config, as opposed to per application; that's a similar thing that's found in various domains)
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2020-11-23T20:24:12Z White_Flame: it's definitely tangential to the actual dataflow stuff, though :)
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2020-11-23T20:36:43Z pillton: I am not convinced yet but you may be right.
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2020-11-23T20:45:09Z _death: pillton: looks interesting.. usually I'd use zmq for that kind of thing, or mailboxes or just queues.. or coroutines and such if single-threaded.. data-flow seems framework-y and lets the user specify a scheduler so I'm wondering what are the use cases..
2020-11-23T20:45:20Z phantomics: Interesting, I've got some projects coming up that will require dataflow, I'll give this a try
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2020-11-23T21:01:15Z pillton: _death: The factors which "tipped me over the edge" was a project at work and Paul Khuong's article titled "The unscalable, deadlock-prone, thread pool".
2020-11-23T21:05:16Z White_Flame: yeah, re the article, anything that can block should never be in a fixed-size threadpool
2020-11-23T21:06:05Z pillton: _death: I hate writing multithreaded software for the most part. What I wanted was something which executed loosely connected computations in parallel without me having to do anything i.e. locally sequential, globally parallel.
2020-11-23T21:06:26Z aeth: White_Flame: Speaking as a CL game engine author, you're simply not going to get a thread pool that satisfies every use case. You think that having one central thread pool means that libraries can interoperate with each other so more can use thread pools safely, but not really. I'll still have to avoid everything that uses a thread pool.
2020-11-23T21:06:49Z aeth: Anything real time is going to have to micromanage threads to some extent.
2020-11-23T21:07:00Z White_Flame: well, micromanage tasks
2020-11-23T21:09:12Z aeth: The thing is, a game engine is going to have to have its own threading system that handles things to its own requirements which are soft real time rather than batch-oriented. At best, you could just provide a common API and allow different implementations with different trade offs, but even the API is probably not going to really be the same with game engine vs. normal app stuff
2020-11-23T21:10:07Z aeth: Worse, some things need to synchronize every frame (probably physics, if "frame" means logic frame rather than rendering frame) and some things don't (e.g. AI).
2020-11-23T21:10:12Z pillton: _death: The project at work involved iterating a map-and-reduce task where each item in the map required performing I/O and then a hefty compute task. A lot of time was wasted waiting for I/O to finish because it wasn't executing in parallel with the compute.
2020-11-23T21:10:22Z _death: pillton: ok.. in the readme you mentioned non-blocking I/O.. how would you go about doing that with data-flow?
2020-11-23T21:11:14Z White_Flame: pillton: yeah, one the of the reason to have a grand central threadpool is that the priority, balancing, resource consumption, can ideally be well expressed in one place
2020-11-23T21:11:28Z pillton: _death: You can ask a scheduler if blocking is allowed using data-flow:blocking-allowed-p.
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2020-11-23T21:11:54Z aeth: White_Flame: That sounds like the responsibility for a framework, though
2020-11-23T21:12:11Z pillton: _death: All of the operations in the data flow system are non blocking. That predicate is meant for I/O.
2020-11-23T21:12:15Z aeth: (as an aside: confusingly, both game frameworks and game engines are software frameworks)
2020-11-23T21:12:15Z White_Flame: eh, it's additional metadata passed in with a function object
2020-11-23T21:12:26Z White_Flame: a threadpool is literally a scheduler
2020-11-23T21:12:43Z White_Flame: a non-preemptive one
2020-11-23T21:12:54Z White_Flame: (at least, in the common use)
2020-11-23T21:13:33Z aeth: White_Flame: right... in particular, it creates the inversion of control where the flow of control is the responsibility of the framework, rather than the caller, at least by Wikipedia's definition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework
2020-11-23T21:13:38Z aeth: White_Flame: Only one component of a framework, though.
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2020-11-23T21:14:10Z White_Flame: if you need external scheduling, because you don't know at the call site if/when/where something should run ... it still seems like a library to me
2020-11-23T21:14:20Z aeth: A language that does this directly (or that has some de facto standard library that everyone uses to do this, which might be what you're proposing) is one that gives less freedom to the software frameworks that should be micromanaging this sort of thing
2020-11-23T21:14:27Z _death: pillton: ok, I'll need to play with it some time ;)
2020-11-23T21:14:49Z aeth: Unless, of course, you go one level more meta and just provide an interface that anyone can implement (which is sort of a C++ or Java way of thinking)
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2020-11-23T21:16:23Z pillton: White_Flame: In my mind there are two types of multi-threaded software 1) same task different data (usually requires barriers for synchronisation) and 2) multiple arbitary tasks. The barrier algorithms I have seen require knowing the number of threads before starting the computation.
2020-11-23T21:17:41Z aeth: A game engine is kind of the worst case for this type of multithreading (which might be why so many games are still bottlenecked by a main thread even though we've had mainstream quad cores for over a decade now).
2020-11-23T21:18:03Z pillton: (Be back later. I need to go to work.)
2020-11-23T21:18:23Z aeth: The #2 type, the multiple arbitrary tasks type.
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2020-11-23T21:19:41Z aeth: You have to parallelize stuff that's of pretty much every kind of data (even network data, if multiplayer) on the GPU and on the CPU. Some's async (doesn't matter when it finishes, e.g. loading something in the background) and some's with very tight timing requirements.
2020-11-23T21:19:41Z White_Flame: games & HPC tend to have very scrutinized, allocated pipelines
2020-11-23T21:19:59Z White_Flame: and probably games even moreso
2020-11-23T21:20:07Z White_Flame: 100% utilization is fine for many tasks, but not for games
2020-11-23T21:20:24Z White_Flame: so it's really "realtime" as you mentioned that's the confounding factor for many throughput systems
2020-11-23T21:20:46Z aeth: HPC is mostly just linear algebra simulations, which is a subset of what games do, but games just require things to visually look plausible rather than to be actually accurate (with a bit of a caveat that with multiplayer you can't do things too badly or you might desync)
2020-11-23T21:21:07Z aeth: So games are harder and easier.
2020-11-23T21:22:03Z aeth: You can do 100% utilization on a game, if you wanted the simulation to get more realistic the more power you have, but generally games only care about 100% GPU utilization, i.e. just the visual simulation. Multiplayer games really can't let players with better CPUs get a different logic simulation, anyway.
2020-11-23T21:22:25Z White_Flame: that's because GPUs don't really do too much cross-frame parallel work
2020-11-23T21:23:11Z aeth: There are some games where you'll get a harder game if you have a better CPU, though. Most notably, timed chess. (The AI, called the "chess engine", will probably use 100% of everything until time's up, or some other constraint is up.)
2020-11-23T21:23:34Z White_Flame: I guess the same could be true on the CPU end, if everything's on a frame barrier
2020-11-23T21:23:46Z aeth: (Not like a slightly harder chess AI in 2020 would make an observable difference to a human...)
2020-11-23T21:24:07Z White_Flame: but really, those who are doing threadpool stuff are generally not doing hard realtime requirements
2020-11-23T21:24:18Z White_Flame: but rather don't want things jamming up or wasting time with thrashing
2020-11-23T21:24:41Z White_Flame: while trying to express things reasonably without requiring that level of hand-tuning
2020-11-23T21:24:57Z aeth: Yes, but... if you get everyone to standardize on a thread pool that isn't designed for hard real time requirements, you're basically forcing users with those requirements to not be able to use any library that uses that thread pool.
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2020-11-23T21:25:15Z aeth: Maybe fine for a scripting language, but I don't think CL should restrict domains like that.
2020-11-23T21:25:26Z White_Flame: as I said, threadpools aren't for hard realtime requirements
2020-11-23T21:25:41Z White_Flame: (generally speaking)
2020-11-23T21:25:56Z aeth: eh
2020-11-23T21:26:14Z White_Flame: having multiple very customized ones in some situations might, but again I would take "I'm using threadpools" as equivalent to "I'm not doing hard realtime"
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2020-11-23T21:27:13Z aeth: afaik, and I haven't looked into this in detail yet, you can just treat a game engine's thread situation like: "these n threads can return within a reasonable amount of time while these m threads have to synchronize every k frames"
2020-11-23T21:27:57Z aeth: i.e. the former are basically async but you need an answer of some sort "eventually" (which could be a few seconds, which is like an eternity to the game engine)
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2020-11-23T21:28:15Z aeth: so even if a thread pool doesn't work for real time, well, you can still sort of thread pool the rest
2020-11-23T21:29:09Z aeth: I guess some of those things should be time limited (e.g. AI) and some of those things shouldn't (e.g. loading the next chunk of the world map in a Minecraft clone)
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2020-11-23T21:30:47Z aeth: (and a game engine isn't hard real time, anyway... missing a frame or two isn't the end of the world)
2020-11-23T21:32:10Z White_Flame: right, but there's a framerate target, which means budgeting milliseconds for various tasks, as well as polygon/texture budgets, etc.  It's still designed as realtime even if it doesn't kill 300 people if it fails its targets
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2020-11-23T21:42:49Z aeth: White_Flame: that just means that the threads must synchronize by a certain amount of time. But if you have, say, 6 physics threads, then the physics work can still be distributed.
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2020-11-23T21:43:19Z aeth: And modern desktops will have 12-128 threads, probably 12-24.
2020-11-23T21:43:20Z White_Flame: sure, which is often a hand tuned balancing act
2020-11-23T21:43:36Z White_Flame: measured against the load that the game needs, and affects level design, weapon firing rates, etc
2020-11-23T21:43:44Z aeth: You can't hand-tune now that everyone's moving on past quad cores.
2020-11-23T21:44:15Z White_Flame: but still, this falls more into the SIMD-ish style processing that pillton brought up
2020-11-23T21:44:43Z White_Flame: not the "bucket of tasks" one
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2020-11-23T21:52:42Z aeth: White_Flame: Only on insufficiently parallel machines
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2020-11-23T21:53:48Z aeth: White_Flame: AMD has been selling 12c24t and 16c32t CPUs to the consumers/mainstream/gamers segment for well over a year now. And anything started now will probably take years to ship.
2020-11-23T21:54:11Z White_Flame: that doesn't change the distinction though
2020-11-23T21:54:59Z White_Flame: it only changes how games are written, not the rest of the industry
2020-11-23T21:55:02Z aeth: Some systems will be "bucket of tasks" systems, such as perhaps the AI system. And when you have 32 real hardware threads to work with, they might be allocated a decent number
2020-11-23T21:55:41Z White_Flame: or I should better say, the game industry is heavily affected by that, while the rest isn't as much
2020-11-23T21:55:51Z White_Flame: because of the distinction in coding style
2020-11-23T21:56:03Z White_Flame: which are because of the timing requirements
2020-11-23T21:56:33Z aeth: The thing about games is that they can do basically everything. And when it does "basically everything", the timing requirements differ, too.
2020-11-23T21:57:03Z aeth: To the point where some of them are probably best expressed as not really having a requirement. As long as the rest of the world can move on so the game doesn't hang.
2020-11-23T21:58:30Z aeth: console-first AAA games will probably spend all of the thread budget on rendering threads, but basically just those will, and none of them will be using Common Lisp
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2020-11-23T22:52:33Z pillton_: White_Flame: My primary goal was to enforce "component providers" to not require a particular scheduler in order to function. This should be chosen by the user.
2020-11-23T22:52:53Z pillton_: White_Flame: Which I think we are in agreement on.
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2020-11-23T22:53:20Z White_Flame: sure
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2020-11-23T23:19:55Z aeth: In case someone's wondering why I brought up game engines... I think any "serious" language should consider a game engine, a web browser, and a database. Big, complicated applications that need some degree of performance and an unbounded number of features limited only by ambition and time.
2020-11-23T23:20:18Z aeth: Fairly non-overlapping, too, so just those three should span most application development concerns.
2020-11-23T23:21:28Z aeth: Maybe add something that heavily involves integers, but maybe that's already covered by the cryptography that's needed by networking...
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2020-11-24T00:13:38Z matta: Can anyone tell me what the #+dev in https://github.com/vseloved/cl-agraph/blob/master/cl-agraph.asd is doing? I know that this conditionally includes the subsequent form, but how does this "dev" thing get set, and do conditional :depends-on tricks like this play nice with quicklisp?
2020-11-24T00:21:02Z pillton: matta: (push :dev *features*)
2020-11-24T00:21:43Z pillton: clhs *features*
2020-11-24T00:21:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_featur.htm
2020-11-24T00:22:24Z lotuseater: ah the question is for the #+ dispatch readmacro
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2020-11-24T00:24:13Z pillton: matta: It would be better to define a cl-agraph/test system rather than use the conditional reader.
2020-11-24T00:24:32Z lotuseater: if the keyword is in *features*it will put the following atom/sexp. otherwise it will comment it out
2020-11-24T00:28:23Z pillton: matta: Have a look at secion 7.1.1 Predefined operations of ASDF in the ASDF manual https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html
2020-11-24T00:28:35Z pillton: matta: In particular the subsection "Operation: test-op".
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2020-11-24T00:34:39Z matta: pillton: thanks, I had seen separate foo/test systems defined elsewhere. This #+dev approach was different, so it cought my eye.
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2020-11-24T00:42:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also feature-based inclusion for components...
2020-11-24T00:43:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/daydreamer/blob/8b29101b298da546bc1555c5c2abc44622ffa980/daydreamer.asd#L35
2020-11-24T00:43:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: (:file "cli" :if-feature (:not :lispworks))
2020-11-24T00:44:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's better than conditionals in your .asd because ASD can track the features
2020-11-24T00:45:22Z lotuseater: good to know
2020-11-24T00:45:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mostly use it to filter out files that contain code that doesn't work in Lispworks
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2020-11-24T00:48:45Z lotuseater: so this is your primary working environment?
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2020-11-24T00:49:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lispworks? no
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2020-11-24T04:05:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-24T04:06:32Z phoe: good morning beach
2020-11-24T04:07:14Z beach: phoe: Early for you!  What's up?
2020-11-24T04:07:24Z phoe: well, my old personal statement still holds true; I can only properly wish you good morning if I don't sleep during the night
2020-11-24T04:10:01Z beach: Ouch! :(
2020-11-24T04:10:10Z phoe: no, been a good and plentiful night
2020-11-24T04:10:18Z phoe: been busy earning the achievement of being proclaimed the biggest threat to the Common Lisp community right now
2020-11-24T04:10:21Z beach: Oh, OK.
2020-11-24T04:10:41Z beach: Er, what?  What happened?
2020-11-24T04:11:18Z phoe: https://twitter.com/HexstreamSoft/status/1331080126860234752
2020-11-24T04:11:46Z phoe: I guess that I annoyed him a wee bit too much with my posts at https://github.com/cl-library-docs/common-lisp-libraries/issues/3
2020-11-24T04:11:54Z phoe: I guess it was the last one, especially
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2020-11-24T04:13:14Z beach: phoe: I am sorry you got into an argument with that guy.
2020-11-24T04:14:07Z phoe: beach: no worries. I am glad that I was able to spend some time and compile some publicly available data on him that will hopefully help keep the Lisp community a better place in the future.
2020-11-24T04:14:44Z beach: It's good you see it that way.
2020-11-24T04:15:01Z phoe: and the best news is that neither Xach nor lispm hold the position of the #1 Lisp baddie anymore!
2020-11-24T04:15:19Z beach: Heh!
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2020-11-24T04:37:15Z mfiano: I still hold the record for longest grudge held against. Only recently as yesterday have I seen him mention me. Serious psychological issues over there.
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2020-11-24T05:08:06Z dbotton: oh my dear... that was intense...
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2020-11-24T05:08:26Z phoe: dbotton: you just read through all of it!?
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2020-11-24T05:09:27Z janis: hello
2020-11-24T05:09:30Z dbotton: most of it.. he repeats himself alot
2020-11-24T05:09:34Z phoe: hey janis
2020-11-24T05:09:38Z janis: heya
2020-11-24T05:09:40Z phoe: dbotton: I am sorry
2020-11-24T05:09:44Z janis: barely ever been on irc
2020-11-24T05:09:49Z janis: mostly use discord
2020-11-24T05:10:00Z phoe: janis: well then welcome to #lisp, a place where Common Lisp programmers hang out
2020-11-24T05:10:14Z janis: i think im gonna try this more often bc i found out emacs has a built in irc client LOL
2020-11-24T05:10:22Z phoe: janis: :D
2020-11-24T05:10:36Z janis: so you can expect to see me somewhat frequently soon
2020-11-24T05:10:40Z phoe: you might want to visit #lispcafe if you feel like having some general random/offtopic chat with lispers
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2020-11-24T05:10:48Z phoe: or #clschool if you want to learn Common Lisp
2020-11-24T05:12:21Z Bike: i'm amazed you have the patience for this github argument
2020-11-24T05:12:24Z phoe: also just feel free to hang around and tune in to general #lisp discussion about Common Lisp the language
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2020-11-24T05:12:54Z phoe: Bike: I actually decided to have it
2020-11-24T05:13:11Z phoe: I think I'm the first person who actually managed to out-speak him
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2020-11-24T05:14:57Z Bike: i envy their internet experience if the craziest thing anyone has ever said to them on the internet was that they're not good at lisp
2020-11-24T05:15:38Z Bike: well, i shouldn't gossip too much i guess, sorry
2020-11-24T05:15:45Z phoe: in my case it's just a combination of patience, persistence, data scraping and a decision to allocate some time to solve this issue with his aggression once and for all.
2020-11-24T05:15:57Z phoe: but, yes, right - I've cooled down a bit, too
2020-11-24T05:16:05Z phoe: back to standard #lisp content
2020-11-24T05:16:31Z Bike: so the reason this arrows thing would need a code walker is just to distinguish whether a form has <> in it, right?
2020-11-24T05:16:44Z phoe: yes
2020-11-24T05:16:47Z phoe: this is the only reason
2020-11-24T05:17:29Z phoe: because otherwise it cannot easily tell apart (list (list (list '<>))) from (list (list (list <>)))
2020-11-24T05:19:20Z Bike: and the reason that matters is because if there's no <> then it's implicitly the first argument to the next form, right... odd stuff
2020-11-24T05:19:27Z phoe: yes
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2020-11-24T08:26:11Z jackdaniel puts down the bowl with popcorn and closes the issue #3 on github. all you said phoe is something I agree with :)
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2020-11-24T08:30:26Z phoe: jackdaniel: was the popcorn tasty
2020-11-24T08:31:27Z jackdaniel: actually it was a donut (and it was tasty), but popcorn seems to be a "figure of speech"
2020-11-24T08:31:35Z phoe: yes, I see
2020-11-24T08:31:38Z phoe: belated bon appetit
2020-11-24T08:31:45Z jackdaniel: thank you
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2020-11-24T08:48:37Z phantomics: I could use a jackdaniel after reading that comment thread
2020-11-24T08:49:13Z imode: dare I ask.
2020-11-24T08:49:16Z phoe: you mean you need a lisp programmer skilled in ECL, CLIM, and C?
2020-11-24T08:49:37Z jackdaniel: I'm sure I have some proficiency in Common Lisp too ,-)
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2020-11-24T08:49:44Z ldb: sup
2020-11-24T08:50:08Z jackdaniel: hey
2020-11-24T08:50:08Z phoe: jackdaniel: that's the part I meant by "lisp programmer"
2020-11-24T08:50:13Z jackdaniel: ah
2020-11-24T08:50:13Z phantomics: phoe I dunno how common Jack Daniel's is in Europe
2020-11-24T08:50:16Z phoe: imode: ask about the comment thread?
2020-11-24T08:50:20Z imode: yeah.
2020-11-24T08:50:25Z phoe: phantomics: yes, jackdaniel is in Europe
2020-11-24T08:50:35Z jackdaniel: phoe: you may get it in a store without an issue
2020-11-24T08:50:52Z phoe: phantomics: ^
2020-11-24T08:50:52Z jackdaniel: however hypocratic that sounds, I prefer scotch ^_^ sorry for the offtopic
2020-11-24T08:51:01Z phoe: imode: https://github.com/cl-library-docs/common-lisp-libraries/issues/3 - wear a hazmat suit before entering.
2020-11-24T08:51:42Z phantomics: Have a bottle of something hard ready for afterward
2020-11-24T08:52:43Z ldb: in general i don't like arrow, bcs i'd choose another language for doing functional style programming
2020-11-24T08:53:01Z phoe: holy cow I wish this issue was about discussing arrows
2020-11-24T08:53:24Z imode: this guy has mental illness.
2020-11-24T08:53:32Z phantomics: It's something I'd use in limited circumstances
2020-11-24T08:53:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I thought that too
2020-11-24T08:54:00Z phantomics: "dangerously intellectually honest and ethical"
2020-11-24T08:54:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: They grow on you (when writing Clojure, at least)
2020-11-24T08:54:04Z imode: "It's just a meme. Chill out." oh my god.
2020-11-24T08:54:11Z imode: pot, meet kettle.
2020-11-24T08:54:34Z imode: judging from this dude's twitter bio he is a fuck. treat him as one.
2020-11-24T08:55:13Z ldb: won't judge a book by its cover
2020-11-24T08:55:49Z phoe: ldb: well, this github issue has some pages.
2020-11-24T08:56:01Z imode: volumes.
2020-11-24T08:56:12Z phantomics: There's plenty of writing available from him
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2020-11-24T08:58:00Z ldb: phoe: oh, i see you made a long post
2020-11-24T08:58:08Z phoe: ldb: just one?
2020-11-24T08:58:11Z phoe: don't worry, keep scrolling
2020-11-24T08:58:36Z ldb: \me reading from backwards
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2020-11-24T09:04:10Z ldb: now I see "It's just a meme. Chill out." part
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2020-11-24T09:06:08Z jackdaniel: OK, frauds and drama aside, lisp lisp lisp (pun at the phrase "team team team" from the it crowd franchise)
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2020-11-24T09:07:34Z phoe: yeah, let's talk about arrow macros
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2020-11-24T09:07:58Z phoe: i wrote a tutorial about those recently, has anyone perhaps read it
2020-11-24T09:09:06Z ck_: I just have
2020-11-24T09:09:10Z ck_: It's good. Thank you phoe.
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2020-11-24T09:10:25Z phantomics: Where's the tutorial?
2020-11-24T09:11:44Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/binding-arrows/blob/main/doc/TUTORIAL.md
2020-11-24T09:12:57Z ldb: I think I'd headache if I recived a peice of code from 30 years ago with "idioms" been used everywhere and has to reverse engineering what's going on there
2020-11-24T09:14:00Z ck_: isn't that what DSLs are?
2020-11-24T09:14:32Z phoe: they kinda are; that's why LOOP tends to get some hate now and then
2020-11-24T09:14:37Z phoe: so does FORMAT
2020-11-24T09:15:11Z jackdaniel: (><> -> :fish)
2020-11-24T09:15:55Z phoe: jackdaniel: what does this form evaluate to?
2020-11-24T09:16:14Z jackdaniel: beats me, I've never worked with arrows
2020-11-24T09:16:29Z phoe: weird, on my implementation I get :SALMON
2020-11-24T09:16:31Z jackdaniel: but it looks nice, symbolic fish is converted to a symbol
2020-11-24T09:16:39Z phoe: i wonder if that's clojure-compatible
2020-11-24T09:17:16Z no-defun-allowed: (>~<o> oOo) ; the fish-tank arrow
2020-11-24T09:17:49Z phantomics: question
2020-11-24T09:17:52Z phantomics: (-> foo
2020-11-24T09:17:52Z phantomics:   bar
2020-11-24T09:17:52Z phantomics:   (baz)
2020-11-24T09:17:52Z phantomics:   (quux 1 2 3))
2020-11-24T09:18:03Z phantomics: Does the (baz) need to be in parentheses?
2020-11-24T09:18:10Z no-defun-allowed: ...is something you should put on a paste, yes.
2020-11-24T09:18:33Z no-defun-allowed: To my knowledge, no. But you should know it's doable.
2020-11-24T09:18:35Z imode: arrow macros are neat. though I'm biased because I like concatenative langs.
2020-11-24T09:19:15Z phantomics: It's just 4 lines, I understand quux needs parens because it has arguments after the first implicit one
2020-11-24T09:19:17Z phoe: phantomics: no. symbols are implicitly converted to lists.
2020-11-24T09:19:29Z phoe: phantomics: (-> foo bar baz) === (-> foo (bar) (baz))
2020-11-24T09:19:30Z phantomics: That's what I thought
2020-11-24T09:20:04Z phoe: this is to be able to provide function names to the arrow macro, which is kinda convenient
2020-11-24T09:20:10Z phoe: Clojurists often use this
2020-11-24T09:22:12Z ck_: Here is some helpful code that subsumes many uses https://github.com/randomcorp/thread-first-thread-last-backwards-question-mark-as-arrow-cond-arrow-bang
2020-11-24T09:22:58Z ck_: (if you have some time, watch the linked talk, it is good fun)
2020-11-24T09:23:04Z no-defun-allowed: Try to cd to that directory without tab completion.
2020-11-24T09:23:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: I found that, in Clojure, you generally want to stick to just -> and ->>
2020-11-24T09:23:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: The fancy ones turn into a mess quickly
2020-11-24T09:23:45Z phantomics: no-defun-allowed use asterisks old-school style
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2020-11-24T12:12:26Z ldb: I got the LCF ML from Nuprl3 running correctly independently. Now I can start develop my own ML dialect on this.
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2020-11-24T12:13:07Z phoe: ldb: oh! is it in Lisp?
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2020-11-24T12:14:27Z no-defun-allowed: The first ML implementation was written in Lisp; I don't know if it is that one though.
2020-11-24T12:14:30Z ldb: it runs inside Common Lisp and can call lisp functions transparently.
2020-11-24T12:14:52Z ldb: no-defun-allowed: it has code from that one
2020-11-24T12:16:07Z ldb: but also has some code from Caml compiler
2020-11-24T12:16:17Z lotuseater: phew, cool stuff
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2020-11-24T12:22:40Z lotuseater: the first ML seems from 1973
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2020-11-24T14:47:41Z pfdietz: It's interesting that the ML page on Wikipedia does not mention the connection to LCF (which I knew about, having been at Cornell around that time.)
2020-11-24T14:49:22Z loke[m]: phoe: why do I get the impression that our favourite troll is a CL version of Xah?
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2020-11-24T14:51:36Z easye: Ah, Xah.  He was more entertaining.
2020-11-24T14:52:31Z phoe: loke[m]: I have no idea.
2020-11-24T14:52:49Z lotuseater: and how did he troll here?
2020-11-24T14:53:07Z edgar-rft: pfdietz: that's because Wikipedia articles are written by experts :-)
2020-11-24T14:53:19Z loke[m]: lotuseater: I was just followin gup on a discussion we've had on Mastodon today.
2020-11-24T14:53:27Z lotuseater: ah okay
2020-11-24T14:54:21Z loke[m]: easye: Xah is actually much more productive than hs. What he produces is not great, but at least he does something.
2020-11-24T14:55:19Z epony: edgar-rft, don't spread misinformation
2020-11-24T14:55:24Z pfdietz: I am old school, and remember Eric Naggum.
2020-11-24T14:55:34Z easye: loke[m]: agreed.
2020-11-24T14:56:02Z easye: pfdietz: When were you in Ithaca?  I was undergrad 1987-1992ish.
2020-11-24T14:56:30Z pfdietz: I was elsewhere by then.
2020-11-24T14:56:41Z easye: Ok.
2020-11-24T14:56:44Z loke[m]: pfdietz: I wasn't part of the CL community at that time. I've read some of his rants though.
2020-11-24T14:57:16Z edgar-rft: Wikipedia is a good thing and I already have learned lots from it, but it's not a replacement for a good teacher.
2020-11-24T14:57:36Z easye: edgar-rft: unless one has no other possible teacher.
2020-11-24T14:57:49Z _death: wikipedia is good for its external links mostly ;)
2020-11-24T14:58:01Z pfdietz: Dead links are good? :)
2020-11-24T14:58:11Z aeth: https://web.archive.org/
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2020-11-24T14:59:14Z pfdietz: Hmm.   I hope archive.org deliberately scans wikipedia for links to archive.
2020-11-24T15:00:30Z edgar-rft: easye: your argument repeats what I said :-)
2020-11-24T15:01:13Z easye: heh.
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2020-11-24T15:02:21Z pfdietz: Eric's style is understandable when you realize he was suffering from ulcerative colitis for 15 years before it finally killed him at age 44.
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2020-11-24T15:05:37Z edgar-rft: Unfortunately "community" always includes that you have to deal with idiots (e.g. like me), but I wouldn't waste too much time with arguing, just simply ignore them.
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2020-11-24T15:07:41Z phoe: OK, quicklisp and ultralisp issues submitted.
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2020-11-24T15:17:16Z aeth: edgar-rft: hexstream could just be a self-proclaimed CL expert like I'm the self-proclaimed galactic emperor (I am), in a completely ignorable way. But hexstream normally tries to get in very public arguments, especially on Github.
2020-11-24T15:18:06Z aeth: The effort in addressing such Github issue comments seems way too high, though.
2020-11-24T15:19:05Z _death: (format t "~36R" 1686565144778)
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2020-11-24T15:23:07Z easye: _death: Very cute.
2020-11-24T15:24:15Z APic: aeth: Do You have three Arms?
2020-11-24T15:28:22Z p_l: APic: It was president of the galaxy that had third arm (for punching people while skiing)
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2020-11-24T15:29:10Z APic: p_l: Yes, it is very good that the President has no Might in contrary to an Emperor ☺
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2020-11-24T15:32:39Z edgar-rft: Emperor Edgar agrees with _death that we should continue this on #lispcafe :-)
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2020-11-24T15:36:36Z phoe: _death: touche
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2020-11-24T15:50:49Z iarebatman: Hey everyone, quick question.. Does anyone know of a good article/guide for setting up a common lisp environment on Windows that will work properly with quicklisp dists that are expecting to be able to run grovel/gcc?
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2020-11-24T15:51:26Z lotuseater: iarebatman you could use portacle
2020-11-24T15:51:33Z lotuseater: portacle.github.io
2020-11-24T15:52:40Z phoe: I actually don't know if it includes gcc stuff
2020-11-24T15:52:49Z iarebatman: Does that somehow have anything to do with grovel/gcc setup, because that's my issue
2020-11-24T15:53:39Z iarebatman: I mean, I suspect I'll have to do something like run sbcl/ccl within the context of msys2 - but I haven't been able to get that to work yet
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2020-11-24T15:55:53Z lotuseater: this week I want to show my rommate some programming and he has windows so i thought about portacle
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2020-11-24T15:56:59Z iarebatman: lotuseater: Yeah, I have a similar situation.. I need make lisp accessible to my coworkers before it's a legitimate option..
2020-11-24T15:57:41Z lotuseater: for learning?
2020-11-24T15:57:46Z iarebatman: to be blunt, they wouldn't take any amount of time to learn emacs though.  I did find that Atom has a package called slima though, and that's more their style.
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2020-11-24T15:58:48Z iarebatman: phoe: I actually JUST stumbled upon this reddit post, looks exactly like what I was looking for.  Putting it here in case it helps anyone else:  https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/fyomln/running_mcclim_and_other_lisp_packages_on_windows/
2020-11-24T15:58:59Z phoe: iarebatman: !
2020-11-24T15:59:31Z travv0: someone also pretty recently made a sublime slime-alike, haven't tried it so i can't comment on how well it works but that's an option if they use sublime iarebatman
2020-11-24T15:59:40Z lotuseater: ah yes that could be a problem
2020-11-24T16:00:28Z phoe: slyblime?
2020-11-24T16:00:31Z phoe: travv0:
2020-11-24T16:00:39Z lotuseater: if it does not has to be CL you could try racket, not as huge
2020-11-24T16:00:50Z travv0: yeah that sounds right phoe
2020-11-24T16:01:03Z phoe: the person developing it is on the lisp discord AFAIK
2020-11-24T16:01:07Z phoe: and they got sorta far with it
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2020-11-24T16:01:10Z phoe: I must evaluate it someday
2020-11-24T16:01:13Z travv0: yep that's how i heard of it lol
2020-11-24T16:01:22Z phoe: me too
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2020-11-24T16:01:30Z phoe: anyway
2020-11-24T16:01:34Z phoe: the issues on quicklisp and ultralisp are made.
2020-11-24T16:01:57Z phoe: https://github.com/ultralisp/ultralisp/issues/90
2020-11-24T16:01:57Z phoe: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1941
2020-11-24T16:02:09Z phoe: please vote if you care enough.
2020-11-24T16:02:44Z lotuseater: now i get what is the problem with hexstream
2020-11-24T16:03:25Z lotuseater: aeth but how to become a non-self-proclaimed CL expert? :)
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2020-11-24T16:05:09Z aeth: lotuseater: someone needs to start a Common Lisp Engineer certification project where you can pay to take a multi-hour multiple choice test.
2020-11-24T16:05:28Z phoe: multiple value test*
2020-11-24T16:05:28Z lotuseater: yes that would be nice
2020-11-24T16:05:35Z jmercouris: what would the value of such a test be anyways?
2020-11-24T16:05:42Z jmercouris: knowing things about a language doesn't make you a good programmer
2020-11-24T16:05:53Z lotuseater: that's also true
2020-11-24T16:05:55Z jmercouris: a good programmer is one who can understand develop good models/abstractions
2020-11-24T16:06:01Z jmercouris: how do you even test taht?
2020-11-24T16:06:12Z lotuseater: but going to university also does not
2020-11-24T16:06:21Z jmercouris: I don't remember saying anything about university :-)
2020-11-24T16:06:28Z lotuseater: good :)
2020-11-24T16:06:56Z lotuseater: i learn the most out of (special) interests and i think the most people here also do
2020-11-24T16:07:08Z jmercouris: you know those issues raise a really good question, how do you support justice in the CL community?
2020-11-24T16:07:14Z iarebatman: well, you know - the demand for lisp developers is so high right now.  This certification would allow employers to sift through the applicants for the quality picks...
2020-11-24T16:07:17Z jmercouris: would it be justice? Phoe's treatise seems to imply so
2020-11-24T16:07:35Z jmercouris: iarebatman: you would be surprised how hard it is to find good CL developers
2020-11-24T16:07:35Z lotuseater: "you have no PhD in computer science so you can't be good and can't work here"
2020-11-24T16:07:57Z iarebatman: jmercouris:  /sarcasm
2020-11-24T16:08:13Z lotuseater: iarebatman where I live the demand is 0 :D
2020-11-24T16:09:03Z lotuseater: and yes the CL people that are findable are already in good employment
2020-11-24T16:09:14Z aeth: but maybe the demand's 0 just because it's so difficult to find someone who's a certified expert.
2020-11-24T16:10:13Z lotuseater: last week i wrote an email to Clozure Associates to ask how to become part of it. became an answer with "no job offers right now"
2020-11-24T16:10:44Z lotuseater: no, most companies here use Java/c#
2020-11-24T16:11:22Z lotuseater: and even don't know lisp exists or "it's so old, blablabla, parentheses, ..."
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2020-11-24T16:12:14Z jmercouris: I found the same conclusion, so I made a company
2020-11-24T16:12:43Z lotuseater: cool, but I'm not experienced enough and you need a good idea
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2020-11-24T16:14:47Z jmercouris: you don't need a good idea, you need good execution
2020-11-24T16:14:56Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2020-11-24T16:14:59Z jmercouris: anyways, this is off topic
2020-11-24T16:15:12Z lotuseater: and discipline ...
2020-11-24T16:15:17Z lotuseater: yes sorry
2020-11-24T16:15:25Z jmercouris: phoe: I am thinking about this, and I think also about how pjb's libraries are also excluded, I wonder, is this the way?
2020-11-24T16:15:36Z phoe: jmercouris: I have no idea about pjb.
2020-11-24T16:15:54Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2020-11-24T16:16:00Z jmercouris: pjb has been excluded from the official Quicklisp dist by Zach for political reasons
2020-11-24T16:16:04Z phoe: like, I don't know the full story.
2020-11-24T16:16:07Z jmercouris: oh, I see
2020-11-24T16:16:18Z phoe: plus I'm running on no sleep since tonight was very busy for me
2020-11-24T16:16:24Z jmercouris: I don't know if Quicklisp dist should be running by a BDFL
2020-11-24T16:16:44Z jmercouris: of course it is Zach's right, his software, and his dist
2020-11-24T16:16:53Z phoe: AFAIK there's always the possibility to create new ones; quicklisp-dist is free software
2020-11-24T16:17:09Z jmercouris: of course, the trouble would be getting everyone away from the blessed dist :-)
2020-11-24T16:17:11Z phoe: it's just hard and thankless work to do it for a large group of people..
2020-11-24T16:17:16Z jmercouris: sure is
2020-11-24T16:17:42Z jmercouris: so my question here is, how does removing his software further the goal of insulating the common lisp community from his abuse?
2020-11-24T16:18:01Z jmercouris: I feel like after reading, I'm not making that connection
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2020-11-24T16:22:10Z phoe: for me, it is to make a very clear cut that this kind of behavior, especially lasting for years, is not acceptable whatsoever and under any circumstances; in theory free software is free software, especially under unlicense, but I think that uprooting hexstream altogether, his abusive behavior along with the "merit" which he has produced, will provide a much cleaner picture afterwards since there'll be nothing
2020-11-24T16:22:16Z phoe: remaining that could still make the connections between the lisp community over here and hex.
2020-11-24T16:22:23Z phoe: if you know what I mean, and if I am explaining myself clearly - sorry, sleep deprivation
2020-11-24T16:22:39Z jmercouris: I know what you mean, and that is my desire as well
2020-11-24T16:22:45Z jmercouris: I just don't konw how to justify it
2020-11-24T16:23:21Z aeth: jmercouris: how is a lisp business off-topic?
2020-11-24T16:23:40Z jmercouris: well, would you like me to mention details about my business in this channel :-D?
2020-11-24T16:23:53Z jmercouris: I think you will quickly find we stray away from discussion about programming, and more about business
2020-11-24T16:24:35Z jmercouris: I am happy to talk about it, just trying to avoid provoking some users who get annoyed by off-topic chat
2020-11-24T16:24:46Z edgar-rft: aeth: because business means you're enslaved to money, and this is *free*-node :-)
2020-11-24T16:24:58Z cl-arthur: lotuseater: "how to become a non-self-proclaimed CL expert?" - by analogy with http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html, get a CL Expert to call you a CL Expert :)
2020-11-24T16:25:14Z phoe: jmercouris: I know what I mean I just cannot turn it into clear words at the moment
2020-11-24T16:25:23Z lotuseater: i think there is much potential for nearly every domain or niches and getting out of the mess
2020-11-24T16:25:40Z lotuseater: cl-arthur hehe
2020-11-24T16:25:57Z phoe: the resulting picture is just much cleaner if there is nothing to remind us of the shit that he used to do; when he's gone, period, set to nil, altogether, along with all of the libraries that have exactly 0 dependents on Quicklisp
2020-11-24T16:26:12Z lotuseater: so I write a few more mails with Edi Weitz and someday he proclaims me so :D
2020-11-24T16:26:22Z phoe: that's how I perceive it - less chances for any accidental mixups or whatever that may happen otherwise
2020-11-24T16:26:56Z jmercouris: phoe: ah, I see
2020-11-24T16:27:03Z jmercouris: it is about discouraging points of contact
2020-11-24T16:27:23Z jmercouris: so if there is no dependence or usage of any of his libraries, then nobody in the Common Lisp space will need to communicate with him
2020-11-24T16:27:35Z phoe: due to the *years* of abuse that have happened, I think that in this case the line must be clear clear and separates a person as a whole, due to their contributions than a whole. I find the approach of "this is fine so it'll stay, but this is nuh-uh" to be dirty and not suitable for holes as big as this
2020-11-24T16:27:49Z jmercouris: I see
2020-11-24T16:28:02Z phoe: I don't know how to explain, it's just that a real broad stroke seems much more appropriate in this case than a thin zigzag.
2020-11-24T16:28:20Z jmercouris: I think I understand
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2020-11-24T16:28:46Z jmercouris: these topics are always sensitive and nuanced, and therefore difficult to conceptualize/explain
2020-11-24T16:29:02Z jmercouris: all this said, I think I understand the core idea behind the justification
2020-11-24T16:29:11Z jmercouris: reduction of touch points, and a reduction of harm
2020-11-24T16:29:25Z phoe: yes
2020-11-24T16:29:35Z phoe: whew, I actually managed to convey the point through :D
2020-11-24T16:29:43Z jmercouris: I think your argument would be more solidified if you put that in a "why"
2020-11-24T16:29:49Z jmercouris: like you've explained "what" the problem is
2020-11-24T16:29:56Z jmercouris: but not how your solution fixes the problem
2020-11-24T16:30:05Z jmercouris: or if it is there, I didn't read it until you said it here
2020-11-24T16:30:08Z phoe: can you support me with this and glue what I've posted above and reformat it slightly?
2020-11-24T16:30:19Z jmercouris: I can provide you an edited draft if you like
2020-11-24T16:30:20Z jmercouris: with a diff
2020-11-24T16:30:21Z phoe: my English skills dissolved today
2020-11-24T16:30:22Z phoe: yes please
2020-11-24T16:30:28Z jmercouris: I will make a diff file one second
2020-11-24T16:30:57Z phoe: I'm simply exhausted, it's been 48 hours of a hexstream-ensnaring marathon where I slept only the first night of it
2020-11-24T16:31:04Z phoe: sorry, I am not of much help at the moment
2020-11-24T16:31:04Z jmercouris: ay yai yai
2020-11-24T16:31:27Z lotuseater: oh noez that is much o_o
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2020-11-24T16:37:06Z cl-arthur: jmercouris: I'd be interested in hearing about your lispy business :)
2020-11-24T16:37:49Z aeth: oh wow, the arthur of Common Lisp is here
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2020-11-24T16:38:13Z jmercouris: cl-arthur: that is a most broad question, what would you like to know about?
2020-11-24T16:38:19Z jmercouris: phoe: http://dpaste.com/EMH89Q2YL
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2020-11-24T16:38:32Z ck_: aeth: thanks for that laugh :)
2020-11-24T16:39:10Z cl-arthur: aeth: some other arthur had already grabbed the "arthur" nick!
2020-11-24T16:39:50Z jmercouris: oh the joke was that arthur sounds like author?
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2020-11-24T16:40:58Z pfdietz: Puns, the reader macros of humor.
2020-11-24T16:41:44Z jmercouris: stop, it hurts
2020-11-24T16:41:50Z jmercouris: its too much, even for me
2020-11-24T16:41:57Z edgar-rft: it's time now for the holy grail of Common Lisp
2020-11-24T16:42:03Z lotuseater: it could be the arthur from the knights of the lambda calculus
2020-11-24T16:42:05Z jmercouris winces
2020-11-24T16:42:34Z cl-arthur: jmercouris: business field for context, what lispy features you've leveraged in particular to solve the problems, and whether you've had any customer reactions to using lisp (if customers notice) :)
2020-11-24T16:42:56Z jmercouris: cl-arthur: they have noticed, we were able to deliver products much quicker
2020-11-24T16:43:10Z jmercouris: cl-arthur: these days we are only now working on a consumer product, which you may have heard of (Nyxt)
2020-11-24T16:43:32Z jmercouris: cl-arthur: in which case Lisp is a direct selling point OF the product, in that it is highly customizable, at run-time
2020-11-24T16:43:33Z lotuseater: the browser?
2020-11-24T16:43:37Z jmercouris: yes, the browser
2020-11-24T16:43:54Z lotuseater: have it installed, nice program :)
2020-11-24T16:44:06Z jmercouris: I'm glad you like it, there's lots more coming :-)
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2020-11-24T16:45:10Z phoe: jmercouris: I'll actually pass on this edit; thank you
2020-11-24T16:45:29Z phoe: just not feeling well enough to make edits.
2020-11-24T16:45:29Z jmercouris: phoe: no problem whatsoever
2020-11-24T16:45:42Z jmercouris: you may in fact not even agree with, which I understand
2020-11-24T16:45:49Z jmercouris: I would suggest to relax, and enjoy life
2020-11-24T16:45:59Z jmercouris: don't consume your life with this
2020-11-24T16:46:16Z jmercouris: very kind and noble of you, but some people cannot be helped
2020-11-24T16:46:21Z jmercouris: especially when they don't want it themselves
2020-11-24T16:46:26Z phoe: we can be helped though
2020-11-24T16:46:29Z pfdietz: I don't use arrow macros, but I do sometimes use nest.     The forms are in reverse order though.
2020-11-24T16:46:34Z phoe: pfdietz: gasp
2020-11-24T16:46:42Z phoe: well, uiop:nest indeed is a thing
2020-11-24T16:46:46Z pfdietz: Local lisp culture
2020-11-24T16:47:26Z pfdietz: Also, curry-compose-reader-macros
2020-11-24T16:48:18Z aeth: I use let*
2020-11-24T16:48:26Z aeth: works unless you need multiple values
2020-11-24T16:49:07Z aeth: if you're feeling really uncreative, I think you can do this: (let* ((foo ...) (foo ...) (foo ...)) (... foo))
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2020-11-24T16:49:39Z aeth: someone mentioned a similar example with $ iirc, but that makes it look a lot more intentional, while in reality, there might be 12 different names, and it just happens that foo shows up twice or thrice in a row
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2020-11-24T16:51:36Z lotuseater: jmercouris and one day wipe javascript and make CL the native browser language :D
2020-11-24T16:51:40Z cl-arthur: jmercouris: quick delivery's a good selling point XD
2020-11-24T16:53:38Z Fade: when did hextream become the new gavino?
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2020-11-24T16:54:05Z ck_: I think it's an adventure many years in the making
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2020-11-24T16:56:21Z phoe: at least five
2020-11-24T16:56:56Z Fade: we're a small community. that behaviour represents too much entropic cost. :/
2020-11-24T16:58:51Z edgar-rft prefers to compose-curry-sausage
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2020-11-24T17:09:09Z Fade: congratulations on your book, phoe. I've ordered my copy, and look forward to reading it over christmas.
2020-11-24T17:10:17Z phoe: Fade: <3
2020-11-24T17:10:19Z momus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-11-24T17:10:21Z phoe: hope it serves you
2020-11-24T17:10:42Z Fade: I'm sure it will.
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2020-11-24T17:40:30Z mseddon: ooh yes, very much looking forward to my copy. Thanks again phoe!
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2020-11-24T17:43:29Z gendl: Hi, has anyone used the :stripe system as currently available in Quicklisp?
2020-11-24T17:43:32Z gendl: https://github.com/mfiano/stripe
2020-11-24T17:43:58Z gendl: The documentation seems a bit sparse. At least an example or two would be helpful.
2020-11-24T17:44:03Z mfiano: jmercouris and I have used it in a commercial project. Other than that, probably not
2020-11-24T17:44:31Z gendl: mfiano: ah, there you are - you're the author, right?
2020-11-24T17:45:19Z gendl: The CLF has a rudimentary payments webapp where we have our own half-assed stripe interface intertwined into it (only for single transactions).
2020-11-24T17:46:14Z mfiano: Yes, it was developed at a time when I needed such a thing for a commercial project, and didn't document it because of time concerns. I have not used it since, but it was used successfully in a large commerical application.
2020-11-24T17:46:24Z gendl: Now we want to add subscription capability and i'm ready to rip out our half-baked stripe interface code and try to use your :stripe package...  I'm also open to adding to the README.md
2020-11-24T17:47:37Z gendl: would you consider coaching me through getting started? I can show you what we are doing currently which will probably give you a good laugh as well (hopefully not nightmares)
2020-11-24T17:47:57Z gendl: this is for a Common Lisp Foundation effort.
2020-11-24T17:48:59Z mfiano: Sadly, I think all that knowledge has slipped my mind. But if jmercouris approves, I could publicize snippets of proprietery code, as that project dissolved.
2020-11-24T17:49:20Z mfiano: I would need his written permission though, as I signed an NDA :)
2020-11-24T17:49:53Z gendl: That could well be useful. I will not object if you want to reach out and ask him 🙏.
2020-11-24T17:50:51Z gendl: so you were using it to do subscriptions, right? I see subscription.lisp and subscription-item.lisp.
2020-11-24T17:51:07Z mfiano: subscriptions, coupons, etc
2020-11-24T17:51:22Z mfiano: we used a good portion of the api
2020-11-24T17:51:46Z mfiano: as far as i remember the stripe library covered the entire api at the time i wrote it
2020-11-24T17:51:55Z gendl: nice.
2020-11-24T17:52:11Z gendl: 1-2 years ago?
2020-11-24T17:52:31Z mfiano: yeah a little more than 1 year ago
2020-11-24T17:58:10Z mfiano: gendl: here, i wrote an example without any of our business logic: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/aa526ecfe4987b7b60ecbb18190ba5db
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2020-11-24T18:03:46Z exit70[m]: hi, lisp newbie, looking for a native cl on apple m1. so far I found sbcl and ccl needs porting. ecl looks kinda portable but i got error at configure stage. clisp requires porting in libsigsegv.
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2020-11-24T18:04:21Z shka_: exit70[m]: lisp on arm is not in the ideal spot
2020-11-24T18:04:23Z shka_: SBCL
2020-11-24T18:04:41Z shka_: well, you know SBCL status
2020-11-24T18:05:22Z shka_: exit70[m]: perhaps you can take a look at the ABCL? It runs on the JVM so it is bound to work (I HOPE!)
2020-11-24T18:05:36Z shka_: i can't check myself, no mac here, and no m1 either
2020-11-24T18:05:46Z shka_: sadly
2020-11-24T18:06:29Z shka_: ECL should work, but i have no idea what you need to do to actually run it on the OSX
2020-11-24T18:06:52Z shka_: if you post configuration errors, maybe we can figure this out
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2020-11-24T18:07:42Z exit70[m]: openjdk does not work on m1 mac right away yet. give me a second to post the ecl configure log
2020-11-24T18:07:57Z shka_: oh, i didn't knew it
2020-11-24T18:08:20Z astronavt: does anyone have experience here using CFFI to write bindings to libraries that depend on GLib? i've worked through the CFFI tutorial that uses curl to download a URL, but i'm not sure how to proceed in this more-complicated case
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2020-11-24T18:08:50Z astronavt: specifically i was hoping to write an application that uses libnotify
2020-11-24T18:08:52Z shka_: exit70[m]: this looks bad https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=96168
2020-11-24T18:09:30Z shka_: astronavt: glib is that GNOME thing?
2020-11-24T18:09:35Z astronavt: yeah
2020-11-24T18:09:44Z shka_: so we are talking gobjects?
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2020-11-24T18:11:00Z astronavt: im not sure honestly. the docs for libnotify file:///usr/share/gtk-doc/html/libnotify/libnotify-notify.html show that it uses types like gboolean
2020-11-24T18:11:09Z astronavt: ive never worked with glib or gtk before
2020-11-24T18:11:14Z astronavt: maybe im in over my head
2020-11-24T18:11:21Z exit70[m]: http://ix.io/2FkW
2020-11-24T18:11:40Z exit70[m]: shka_: ^
2020-11-24T18:11:51Z shka_: exit70[m]: looking
2020-11-24T18:12:05Z shka_: astronavt: not sure, but it looks like vanilla C
2020-11-24T18:12:12Z shka_: gboolean is just int
2020-11-24T18:12:33Z astronavt: thats good
2020-11-24T18:12:40Z astronavt: looks like their GList is also just a struct
2020-11-24T18:12:57Z gendl: mfiano: 👍🙏
2020-11-24T18:13:37Z shka_: exit70[m]: i think that you are out of luck here until GCC gets m1 support
2020-11-24T18:13:45Z astronavt: so i'd just use defctype or define-foreign-type on the few specific glib things i need, and then go from there making bindings to libnotify?
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2020-11-24T18:14:10Z shka_: astronavt: i don't know for sure, but i guess the answer is yes
2020-11-24T18:14:38Z astronavt: ok, at least i can start there
2020-11-24T18:15:11Z astronavt: thanks. will report back when i inevitably break everything :P
2020-11-24T18:15:21Z shka_: born optimist
2020-11-24T18:15:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: exit70[m]: I've gotten abcl and lispworks to work
2020-11-24T18:16:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: You have to use the zulu openjdk, which is the only arm64 JDK I can find atm
2020-11-24T18:16:53Z shka_: fiddlerwoaroof: cheers!
2020-11-24T18:17:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://jp.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?os=macos&architecture=arm-64-bit&package=jdk
2020-11-24T18:17:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: shka_: hi
2020-11-24T18:17:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I started working on porting sbcl, but it's not really my specialty
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2020-11-24T18:17:43Z shka_: fiddlerwoaroof: awesome that you managed to get some lisp running anyway
2020-11-24T18:18:42Z exit70[m]: I see. Thanks! I think most people simply use rosetta homebrew for now but I'm just curious about how many packages would not work natively.
2020-11-24T18:19:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I did manage to do a bunch of the porting work, I'm just stuck on an error with mmap
2020-11-24T18:19:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: (and I'm sure there's more subtle issues too, haven't gotten something that even gets to a REPL yet)
2020-11-24T18:20:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: If anyone wants to try to go further, my changes are here: https://gitlab.com/fiddlerwoaroof/sbcl/-/snippets/2041970
2020-11-24T18:20:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Rosetta runs into issues with the x86-64 sbcl and ccls
2020-11-24T18:21:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sorry, here: https://gitlab.com/fiddlerwoaroof/sbcl/-/tree/arm64-port
2020-11-24T18:21:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I fixed the error in the snippet :)
2020-11-24T18:22:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: "fixed", at least
2020-11-24T18:22:37Z exit70[m]: fiddlerwoaroof: bookmarked. fwiw there is windows on arm64 these days as well
2020-11-24T18:23:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I try to avoid using windows
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2020-11-24T18:29:33Z exit70[m]: haha I was like that too. the arm64 devices are kinda nice though as they are fanless. and they run x86 applications like a real celeron (or slower)
2020-11-24T18:37:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Apple's arm64 devices blow even relatively high-end x86 computers out of the water.
2020-11-24T18:37:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: At least on some benchmarks
2020-11-24T18:39:28Z iarebatman: lol this is super frustrating.. I'm pretty sure I need to compile a CL environment within msys2 to get things going.  I've tried sbcl, ccl, and ecl.  All fail to compile with various issues.
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2020-11-24T18:43:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: iarebatman: what's the context?
2020-11-24T18:43:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, nvm just didn't read far enough up
2020-11-24T18:43:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Good luck :)
2020-11-24T18:44:23Z iarebatman: lol thanks
2020-11-24T18:44:43Z iarebatman: I figured at least one of those 3 popular implementations would 'just work' - but no.
2020-11-24T18:45:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder how much CL is used on Windows
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2020-11-24T18:46:33Z iarebatman: apparently not as much as on other platforms
2020-11-24T18:46:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: My general impression is that implementation developers don't really use it as their primary platform
2020-11-24T18:47:27Z iarebatman: I'm probably just asking for trouble by even attempting to use it for actual business use-cases and should just do something else.
2020-11-24T18:47:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lisworks/Allegro probably are more reliabl on Windows
2020-11-24T18:47:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: And they'll have commercial support
2020-11-24T18:48:16Z iarebatman: Well here's the thing TBH.. I can download sbcl binaries and they work fine on windows.. I can get the development environment setup just fine..
2020-11-24T18:48:46Z iarebatman: but as soon as I need to say, use :cl-rabbit or :cl-rdkafka?
2020-11-24T18:48:47Z iarebatman: nope.
2020-11-24T18:49:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: For kafka, I'd use abcl
2020-11-24T18:49:25Z iarebatman: they assume gcc is setup like it is on linux and I've got libs & headers ready for it to do some stuff with.
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2020-11-24T18:49:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: In general, for enterprise stuff, the JVM is the way to go
2020-11-24T18:49:48Z iarebatman:  /sad panda
2020-11-24T18:49:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: You won't have to reinvent the world to connect to existing systems
2020-11-24T18:50:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: And ABCL (or Clojure) are perfectly good lisps
2020-11-24T18:50:25Z iarebatman: I've not tried abcl yet, but I'm fairly familiar with Clojure.
2020-11-24T18:50:51Z iarebatman: I just didn't like the startup times involved mainly.  I know that's a sort of shallow reason, but it bugs me lol.
2020-11-24T18:51:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe also Corman Lisp? That is/was a windows-first implementation that has been revived recently
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2020-11-24T18:56:08Z jmercouris: mfiano: feel free to publish any snippets as long as you remove identifying information
2020-11-24T18:56:15Z jmercouris: of the client
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2020-11-24T18:58:05Z jmercouris: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't think Corman Lisp is a sound reccomendation, I would still suggest SBCL on Windows
2020-11-24T18:58:35Z jmercouris: I would actually not suggest Windows at all for Lisp development though
2020-11-24T18:58:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2020-11-24T18:59:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I still think that, if you have to connect to something like Oracle or Kafka, ABCL or LispWorks is your best choice
2020-11-24T18:59:15Z jmercouris: I would agree with that
2020-11-24T18:59:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Unless you like to spend your time debugging the connecting logic
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2020-11-24T19:05:43Z iarebatman: Yeah that's unfortunate for me.  I'm in a position where it'd probably be frowned upon to require the developer to use linux in order to get things done here.
2020-11-24T19:06:07Z exit70[m]: so Corman Lisp could be built use msvc? let me try if it builds cleanly for arm64 ...
2020-11-24T19:06:11Z iarebatman: I did just manage to get sbcl to compile inside msys2 finally - via roswell.  Not sure if that'll magically solve my problems or not yet.
2020-11-24T19:06:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: iarebatman: there's always WSL2
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2020-11-24T19:07:18Z iarebatman: true.  That might end up being the path of least resistance.
2020-11-24T19:07:37Z iarebatman: I mean, I guess besides just giving up and using c# anyway.
2020-11-24T19:08:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or implement CL in C# :D
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2020-11-24T19:09:58Z iarebatman: I've already got too many side projects lol, but I've definitely thought, 'gah! why doesn't this exist yet?'
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2020-11-24T19:11:33Z iarebatman: lol scratch that 'sbcl builds on msys2 via roswell' comment.  It builds, sort of.  segfault immediately upon launching sbcl
2020-11-24T19:12:07Z astronavt: do quicklisp and/or asdf permit creating "environments" local to a project? like how python has venv, and ruby & nodejs/npm by default install packages to an isolated project-specific location
2020-11-24T19:12:10Z iarebatman: I have to do some other work, I'll revisit this later I guess.  maybe look at wsl2 or possibly abcl. *sigh*
2020-11-24T19:12:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: astronavt: there's qlot
2020-11-24T19:12:52Z astronavt: ah thank you
2020-11-24T19:12:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I've never felt a need for that, the libraries generally maintain backwards-compatibility pretty nicely
2020-11-24T19:13:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wouldn't say the same about python or node
2020-11-24T19:13:24Z astronavt: yeah, i guess its just my instinctive desire in any software dev context now
2020-11-24T19:14:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, the issue I have with version pinning is that, if you pin versions, they slowly get out of date
2020-11-24T19:14:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, eventually rather than relatively small version updates, you have a three-week+ project
2020-11-24T19:14:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, there's a trade-off hee
2020-11-24T19:14:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: *here
2020-11-24T19:15:01Z astronavt: yeah, usually i dont pin specific versions. it's moreso that i'd like to keep libraries for one project separated from other projects
2020-11-24T19:15:43Z astronavt: i am also starting to learn about / read about ASDF and i'm a bit confused - does it expect me to put all of my lisp source code in a few specific places?
2020-11-24T19:16:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can configure its search path
2020-11-24T19:16:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can also do (asdf:load-asd "/path/to/foo.asd")
2020-11-24T19:16:20Z astronavt: im having nightmare flashbacks to $GOPATH :(
2020-11-24T19:16:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: which is what I always do
2020-11-24T19:17:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: One issue with venvs in lisp is that I don't normally restart my lisp when I switch projects
2020-11-24T19:17:30Z astronavt: interesting
2020-11-24T19:17:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: My REPL will run for days, weeks or months
2020-11-24T19:17:57Z astronavt: again maybe this is very un-lisp of me, but i definitely want to do a clean restart and re-run from scratch now and then
2020-11-24T19:17:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: until I accidentally crash it or restart my compuer
2020-11-24T19:18:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: I used to do that all the time, these days I rely on CI to make sure that my systems can be reloaded from scratch
2020-11-24T19:18:48Z astronavt: ive just had too many bad experiences in jupyter notebooks with losing track of what i defined and encountering subtle bugs as a result
2020-11-24T19:19:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: In lisp, your reset button is (delete-package :foo) and then reload things
2020-11-24T19:19:58Z astronavt: true
2020-11-24T19:20:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are a couple edge cases, but it works pretty well
2020-11-24T19:20:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially if you avoid toplevel side effects in your source code
2020-11-24T19:20:30Z astronavt: i definitely do :)
2020-11-24T19:20:35Z astronavt: (do avoid them, i mean)
2020-11-24T19:22:30Z astronavt: it looks like qlot will take care of all the asdf path stuff anyway
2020-11-24T19:22:35Z astronavt: so maybe i dont have to mess around too much
2020-11-24T19:22:37Z astronavt: thanks for the pointer
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2020-11-24T19:27:45Z shka_: astronavt: CL with slime is actually really nice for things you would typically use jupyter for
2020-11-24T19:28:00Z shka_: you don't have nice graphics, but i can live with that
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2020-11-24T21:12:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: shka_: who says "you don't have nice graphics" :)
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2020-11-24T21:12:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://twitter.com/fwoaroof/status/1318321574181621760?s=20
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2020-11-24T21:22:53Z jeosol: Good morning!
2020-11-24T21:23:20Z lotuseater: but it's night! :D
2020-11-24T21:23:43Z exit70[m]: is there a workflow that uses org-mode and cl together?
2020-11-24T21:23:52Z jeosol: When working with macros, is it a 'code smell' to be use 'eval' (albeit sparingly) or its ok
2020-11-24T21:24:03Z phoe: depends
2020-11-24T21:24:21Z lotuseater: exit70[m] literate programming?
2020-11-24T21:24:25Z phoe: there are very few specific use cases where eval might be required, such as with constantp values
2020-11-24T21:24:36Z phoe: but usually you don't need those
2020-11-24T21:25:06Z exit70[m]: lotuseater: maybe but I have not dived into that
2020-11-24T21:25:15Z jeosol: phoe: I have been using lots of macros to reduce and typing. Definitely provides more clarity with lots of the calculation happening behind the scenes in the automatically generated functions.
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2020-11-24T21:26:15Z jeosol: when getting the value of a variable that's constructed from a string, I used eval there ....?
2020-11-24T21:26:54Z lotuseater: but as far as I'm concerned you can't use SLIME features from org
2020-11-24T21:27:04Z phoe: jeosol: wait a second
2020-11-24T21:27:08Z phoe: show me your code
2020-11-24T21:27:30Z jeosol: it works that way;
2020-11-24T21:27:41Z phoe: please use a pastebin if it's a large function
2020-11-24T21:27:42Z jeosol: let me post a section of it;
2020-11-24T21:29:24Z jeosol: phoe: no, it's fairly involved, but the section is messy as I am still debugging it. I can share that part with code
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2020-11-24T21:29:57Z phoe: jeosol: please do, but maybe someone else may aid you
2020-11-24T21:30:01Z phoe: I must crash asleep now
2020-11-24T21:30:12Z jeosol: no worries, you should get some sleep
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2020-11-24T21:39:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: jeosol: I've found it's useful to generate a form that gets the value rather than to try to actually get a value
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2020-11-24T21:39:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've found that, in general, stateful macros end up being defficult to maintain
2020-11-24T21:40:42Z jeosol: fiddlerwoaroof: oh men ....; I am doing a refactor to automate a lot of things I do by hand.
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2020-11-24T21:41:05Z jeosol: fiddle...: can you explain your first statement
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2020-11-24T21:42:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, instead of doing something like `(foo ,(eval some-macro-arg))
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2020-11-24T21:42:29Z jeosol: fiddle: btw, what I mean was, say I create variable from a string name (interned, etc) and assigned a value to it. To retrieve the value I did (eval (get-parameter-name name))
2020-11-24T21:43:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think you should pastebin the code so I can see more context
2020-11-24T21:43:06Z jeosol: fiddle: oh I see what you mean.
2020-11-24T21:43:28Z jeosol: Let me post it and get some feed back... on the section
2020-11-24T21:44:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: My early macros used eval, but as I've used lisp I've found ways around most of those use-cases
2020-11-24T21:44:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think there are a couple of exceptions for some advanced CLOS stuff: but, even there, (compile nil `(lambda ()...)) is often better
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2020-11-24T21:58:42Z jeosol: iddlerwoaroof: https://pastebin.com/EYNQaVur
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2020-11-24T22:03:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, this is a case where your macro that wants the value of *test-property* should probably just expand to *test-property*
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2020-11-24T22:04:45Z jeosol: Basically, I am going to use *test-property* as an argument to a function. So now I do (some-function (eval (make-property-name "test")))
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2020-11-24T22:56:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: jeosol: why not have your macro expand to `(some-function ,(make-property-name "test"))?
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2020-11-24T22:58:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: When that code eventually gets evaluated, some-function will get the right value of *test-property*
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2020-11-24T23:09:48Z jeosol: Thanks for that.
2020-11-24T23:10:37Z jeosol: fiddlerwoaroof:  I forget to mention that the evaluation I am trying to do is inside another macro -- i get your point about this being nasty
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2020-11-24T23:18:51Z White_Flame: jeosol: if you want the value at compile-time, then that's likely wrong, unless you're absolutely certain that the property has been set before compiletime
2020-11-24T23:19:21Z White_Flame: and even then, you probably want SYMBOL-VALUE, not EVAL, to be safe
2020-11-24T23:20:30Z White_Flame: if you want the value at runtime, as above you're still macroexpanding to the symbol to allow that to be evaluated at runtime, so nothing changes if it's 1 macro, a macro that uses another macro in its output, or a macro that needs another macro's expansion at compile-time
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2020-11-24T23:26:50Z jeosol: White_Flame: no, it's not compile time. I think symbol-value did the trick - I wanted to understand how to do it for one case. It's one macro per se but I am trying to paste the correct variable values during the macroexpanding.
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2020-11-24T23:27:41Z White_Flame: then you really shouldn't need symbol-value in the exeucting macro code at all
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2020-11-24T23:33:05Z phantomics: I have a few cases where eval seems unavoidable
2020-11-24T23:33:27Z phantomics: Like I have a function used within a macro to generate code, and that function can take a pathname as one of its parameters
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2020-11-24T23:34:28Z phantomics: But it could either be a literal pathname, like #P"/tmp/stuff.txt" or a pathname generated by code like (pathname (format nil "~a/stuff.txt" "/tmp"))
2020-11-24T23:35:02Z phantomics: The function used within the macro will just receive '(pathname (format nil "~a/stuff.txt" "/tmp")) if that's what gets passed to the macro
2020-11-24T23:35:44Z phantomics: So it needs to eval it to load that file
2020-11-24T23:35:45Z jeosol: fiddlerwoaroof, White_Flame: my chrome crapped up, not sure last message got through, but thanks for your brainstorming
2020-11-24T23:35:54Z White_Flame: of course, if it receives (pathname (format nil "~a/stuff.txt" my-dir)) with my-dir as a lexical variable,it wouldn't work
2020-11-24T23:36:08Z White_Flame: jeosol: "no, it's not compile time. ..." is the last I saw
2020-11-24T23:36:34Z White_Flame: phantomics: so yeah, it's best to demand literals in such cases
2020-11-24T23:36:37Z jeosol: haaaa, i need to use something else, maybe emacs; my browser craps up each time
2020-11-24T23:37:10Z phantomics: Yeah, that's a shortcoming, so literals are always preferred in a case like that
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2020-11-24T23:38:01Z Xach: phantomics: one common option is to put the code that produces the value you want into the expansion, rather than trying to compute the result at macroexpansion time, defer it to runtime.
2020-11-24T23:38:28Z White_Flame: but if you're generating code from that .txt file, then you'd just be deferring the EVAL until later
2020-11-24T23:38:46Z White_Flame: either EVAL the filename, or EVAL the expansion of the contents; the former is probably safer
2020-11-24T23:38:46Z jeosol: I was saying I was doing have two-levels of the indirection (creating the variable from string and using the value from that variable again ...)
2020-11-24T23:38:48Z phantomics: Yeah, this is for the April APL compiler, the contents of the file would be the code it's going to compile
2020-11-24T23:39:14Z White_Flame: jeosol: but your macro isn't using the value itself, right?
2020-11-24T23:39:24Z jeosol: maybe mine is a bad design, I am trying to construct and paste variable names in the macro and when its run, those variables will have values
2020-11-24T23:39:38Z jeosol: White_Flame: Yes, its not using the value
2020-11-24T23:39:47Z White_Flame: right, so you never have to use EVAL
2020-11-24T23:39:59Z White_Flame: just generate the var's symbol in the output code stream
2020-11-24T23:40:00Z jeosol: White_Flame: Ok, thanks, that makes some sense now
2020-11-24T23:40:02Z White_Flame: s/stream/form/
2020-11-24T23:40:44Z jeosol: I guess what are stateful macros, fiddlerwoaroof alluded to that earlier
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2020-11-24T23:41:00Z White_Flame: and the fun thing that most people have to have an "aha!" moment with is that the value usually doesn't even _exist_ when the macroexpansion code is run ;)
2020-11-24T23:41:21Z jeosol: The refactoring I did has simplified the interface greatly and pushing a lot of the functionality later.
2020-11-24T23:41:48Z jeosol: White_Flame: yeah. That's true. I need to remember that
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2020-11-25T01:13:08Z lotuseater: how and when do you use DYNAMIC-EXTENT ? :)
2020-11-25T01:19:44Z save-lisp-or-die: there's a cool use for when you want to stack allocate a value http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Dynamic_002dextent-allocation for efficiency reasons.
2020-11-25T01:20:33Z lotuseater: yes I first read about it in the Google CL Style Guide
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2020-11-25T01:23:53Z save-lisp-or-die: So if you're consing a tonne of memory in a hot loop that the garbage collector is hiccuping to free, stack allocation might be useful there.
2020-11-25T01:24:50Z save-lisp-or-die: (but i'm just talking out of my ass. and I defer to wiser typers)
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2020-11-25T01:31:16Z no-defun-allowed: Well, allocation with a moving GC is almost comparable to stack allocation. It's sometimes useful, but I don't bother with dynamic-extent.
2020-11-25T01:32:54Z save-lisp-or-die: does ECL respect it? I could see maybe on resource constrained devices it might be useful.
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2020-11-25T01:34:40Z no-defun-allowed: Some testing at the REPL says there's no performance benefit.
2020-11-25T01:34:53Z save-lisp-or-die: ah well, just a thought.
2020-11-25T01:35:08Z no-defun-allowed: I am not sure if ECL is the right implementation with small resources; don't you either need a C99 compiler or bytecode interpreting?
2020-11-25T01:36:12Z mfiano: The standard doesn't concern itself with stack-allocation.
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2020-11-25T01:37:52Z no-defun-allowed: Also, see "Garbage collection can be faster than stack allocation" <ftp://ftp.cs.princeton.edu/reports/1986/045.pdf>. That should be read with heavy emphasis on "can".
2020-11-25T01:37:59Z mfiano: Additionally, implementations need only to honor NOTINLINE, and SPECIAL declarations, and conform to the safety rules for OPTIMIZE
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2020-11-25T01:39:16Z no-defun-allowed: If you can free enough in one GC cycle, it eventually becomes faster to not un-bump the stack pointer.
2020-11-25T01:39:21Z save-lisp-or-die: no-defun-allowed cool paper, thanks for digging it up.
2020-11-25T01:40:08Z no-defun-allowed: But really, the memory overhead for that to happen is ridiculous. The moral of the story is everthing is a time-space-sanity tradeoff.
2020-11-25T01:40:41Z lotuseater: what SPECIAL declaration for a parameter fully means I'm also not aware of yet
2020-11-25T01:40:53Z lotuseater: but sorry if my questions seem silly to you :/
2020-11-25T01:40:57Z no-defun-allowed: (And Firefox crashed after sending that. I'm not one for conspiracy theories though.)
2020-11-25T01:41:04Z no-defun-allowed: No, they're not silly.
2020-11-25T01:41:07Z save-lisp-or-die: lol
2020-11-25T01:41:39Z save-lisp-or-die: (lol was re: firefox conspiracy)
2020-11-25T01:41:52Z no-defun-allowed: The SPECIAL declaration means that variable will use dynamic binding, instead of lexical (like you usually expect, and is default in Common Lisp). I usually prefer to write (defvar *foo*) to make *foo* a special variable though.
2020-11-25T01:43:20Z lotuseater: so it can't be shadowed in a LET statement?
2020-11-25T01:43:44Z no-defun-allowed: It can be shadowed in a LET form, but the way it shadows is different.
2020-11-25T01:43:52Z lotuseater: ah okay
2020-11-25T01:44:46Z lotuseater: I also look to use earmuffs for parameters
2020-11-25T01:44:59Z no-defun-allowed: Usually people write a program like this to demonstrate: (let ((x 3)) (defun g () x)) (defun f () (let ((x 2)) (g)))
2020-11-25T01:45:19Z lotuseater: let me try ...
2020-11-25T01:45:21Z no-defun-allowed: If X is lexically bound, then (F) returns 3. If X is dynamically bound, it returns 2.
2020-11-25T01:48:29Z lotuseater: phew
2020-11-25T01:49:09Z no-defun-allowed: Dynamic binding will give you the last value bound, no matter where it's bound; and lexical binding will give you the last binding you can see where the variable is used.
2020-11-25T01:49:33Z lotuseater: okay good to know
2020-11-25T01:50:18Z no-defun-allowed: For example, *standard-output* is a special variable. If I evaluate (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (room)), it will be bound to the string output stream WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING makes, and ROOM will write to that.
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2020-11-25T01:51:32Z lotuseater: yes I used that some times to write outputs to files
2020-11-25T01:52:30Z lotuseater: or if you do something like (let ((*print-base* 16)) ...) or (let ((*gensym-counter* 1)) ...)
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2020-11-25T04:03:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-11-25T04:04:48Z lotuseater: ohai beach here it is 5am :)
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2020-11-25T04:07:55Z phantomics: Morning beach
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2020-11-25T04:09:18Z phantomics: A question about SICL: what kind of support will it have for ASM generation? Anything like define-vop in SBCL?
2020-11-25T04:10:22Z beach: phantomics: Tough question.  I don't know what DEFINE-VOP does in SBCL.
2020-11-25T04:10:40Z beach: phantomics: Since all the stages are programmable, it should be possible to customize at will.
2020-11-25T04:10:57Z phantomics: Lets you implement functions in assembly: https://pvk.ca/Blog/2014/08/16/how-to-define-new-intrinsics-in-sbcl/
2020-11-25T04:11:43Z beach: Let me read that...
2020-11-25T04:12:09Z lotuseater: ah that blog has nice articles, eg "all you need is call/cc"
2020-11-25T04:13:21Z phantomics: I'm looking into it to optimize my project; unfortunately, it will only work under SBCL and there's no ASM generation faculty that works across implementations
2020-11-25T04:13:43Z beach: phantomics: I have not thought of a similar way in SICL.  However, since code generation is done with generic functions that take a CLIENT object that can be specialized to, then code generation is very easy to customize.
2020-11-25T04:14:00Z phantomics: Excellent
2020-11-25T04:14:35Z beach: phantomics: It is also easy to define new IR instruction classes, new AST classes, and new primitive operations (primops) to use at the source level.  I do that all the time.
2020-11-25T04:18:42Z beach: Since SICL uses the Cleavir compiler framework, and Cleavir was designed to be implementation independent, we designed it from the start to be extremely flexible and adaptable to different implementations.
2020-11-25T04:19:32Z beach: That same feature makes it easy to customize for other purposes.
2020-11-25T04:20:22Z beach: But I haven't given enough thought to a consistent protocol for tweaking code generation within an implementation.
2020-11-25T04:22:33Z Bike: right now cleavir doesn't really cover any equivalent to the VOP stage, i don't think
2020-11-25T04:23:30Z beach: True, Cleavir kind of stops at the HIR level.
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2020-11-25T04:32:48Z lotuseater: so with this DEFINE-VOP i can control compilation down to assembly?
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2020-11-25T04:36:17Z phantomics: Yes, although documentation is sparse
2020-11-25T04:37:15Z phantomics: You can see a lot of define-vop examples in this directory: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/tree/master/src/compiler/x86-64
2020-11-25T04:38:27Z phantomics: You can see optimized functions for handling arithmetic, arrays, etc. It's the x86-64 specific stuff, in the neighboring directories you can see implementations for ARM, Power, RISC-V, etc.
2020-11-25T04:38:28Z lotuseater: the more I get to know the less it seems to be I know o_O
2020-11-25T04:39:03Z lotuseater: and internet is slow again at the moment ...
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2020-11-25T04:40:18Z pillton: I need help figuring out the noun for something. Assume X is an instance of the class C. (apply #'F X args) returns Y and (funcall (apply #'F C args) X) returns Y. Is there a noun which describes the function F?
2020-11-25T04:41:38Z pillton: The closest thing I have found is lazy evaluation but I am not sure if that is correct.
2020-11-25T04:42:31Z beach: Yeah, that's not quite right.
2020-11-25T04:42:37Z lotuseater: ok hm I associate lazy evaluation with stuff not done until needed
2020-11-25T04:42:53Z beach: pillton: It looks closer to currying to me.
2020-11-25T04:44:30Z beach: The function F is a bit strange since it can take arguments of different "meta" levels.
2020-11-25T04:45:15Z pillton: Knowledge of the class C is important. I was wondering if Cleavir would be useful for optimising the graph generated by successive compositions e.g. (funcall (optimize-computation (apply #'G (apply #'F C args) args2))).
2020-11-25T04:45:39Z pillton: Sorry. Knowledge of the class C and the args is important.
2020-11-25T04:46:44Z beach: I have no idea.  I haven't even finished my morning coffee yet.
2020-11-25T04:48:16Z pillton: No worries. I have lost track of the time and I need to pick up kids. I'll be back in a bit.
2020-11-25T04:48:28Z beach: Take care.
2020-11-25T04:48:55Z lotuseater: speaking of currying and nouns, did you know, another noun for it is Schönfinkeln :)
2020-11-25T04:49:15Z lotuseater: yes please stay healthy
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2020-11-25T05:52:06Z janislago: evening
2020-11-25T05:52:27Z beach: Hello janislago.
2020-11-25T05:52:36Z janislago: hows this evening been yall
2020-11-25T05:53:05Z beach: Strange question since not everyone is in the same time zone.
2020-11-25T05:53:06Z janislago: kind of a slow hour i guess
2020-11-25T05:53:54Z beach: janislago: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-11-25T05:54:00Z janislago: yeah im quite new here
2020-11-25T05:54:08Z beach: Great!  Welcome!
2020-11-25T05:54:08Z janislago: only been programming cl for a month or so
2020-11-25T05:54:24Z janislago: i joined recently nicknamed janis
2020-11-25T05:54:30Z beach: Oh, OK.
2020-11-25T05:54:44Z janislago: but im doing this just for clarity and to give myself a readily identifiable name i suppose
2020-11-25T05:54:51Z janislago: thats the idea
2020-11-25T05:54:58Z janislago: i also make music as janis lago
2020-11-25T05:55:03Z janislago: hence the choice
2020-11-25T05:55:27Z janislago: im also new to irc as a whole
2020-11-25T05:55:38Z janislago: like right now im chatting from emacs LOL
2020-11-25T05:55:53Z beach: I think using an Emacs IRC client is a good idea.
2020-11-25T05:56:09Z beach: That way you have your usual abbrevs, spell checker, whatever.
2020-11-25T05:56:23Z janislago: yep!
2020-11-25T05:56:32Z janislago: im also relatively new to emacs but im getting the gist
2020-11-25T05:56:50Z janislago: its very late where i live
2020-11-25T05:56:56Z janislago: midnight-y
2020-11-25T05:57:02Z janislago: 00:57
2020-11-25T05:57:11Z lotuseater: janislago I'm also very fresh joined here :)
2020-11-25T05:57:24Z janislago: wo you reminded me of someone for a second
2020-11-25T05:57:29Z janislago: im sure youre not them though
2020-11-25T05:57:34Z janislago: nice to meet ya
2020-11-25T05:58:10Z lotuseater: no i don't think so
2020-11-25T05:58:29Z lotuseater: the nick is also "new" since half a year
2020-11-25T05:58:34Z janislago: aye
2020-11-25T05:58:42Z janislago: youre definitely not the one i was thinking of then
2020-11-25T05:58:49Z lotuseater: oh noez I meant "for half a year"
2020-11-25T05:59:00Z janislago: i understood what you meant dw
2020-11-25T05:59:06Z janislago: hope we see each other often here
2020-11-25T05:59:42Z lotuseater: yes why not? :)
2020-11-25T05:59:53Z lotuseater: and if you have questions you can also query
2020-11-25T05:59:54Z beach: You should know that #lisp is fairly strict with staying on topic.  There is #lispcafe for idle chatting.
2020-11-25T06:00:04Z beach: Just saying...
2020-11-25T06:00:07Z janislago: i gotcha
2020-11-25T06:00:25Z janislago: was just about to mention that emacs lisp is a little weird when youre adjusted to cl
2020-11-25T06:00:48Z janislago: like having no loop macro
2020-11-25T06:00:50Z beach: We don't care. :)
2020-11-25T06:01:05Z janislago: i'll head to lispcafe
2020-11-25T06:01:19Z janislago: ah and i dont have registration
2020-11-25T06:01:28Z janislago: i'll just head someplace else fttb
2020-11-25T06:02:21Z beach: janislago: So what material are you using for learning Common Lisp?
2020-11-25T06:03:02Z lotuseater: ah that interests me too
2020-11-25T06:03:21Z janislago: mostly teaching myself from trial and error honestly
2020-11-25T06:03:27Z janislago: i learned ableton live that way
2020-11-25T06:04:39Z beach: janislago: You need to be a little bit careful with that approach.  Common Lisp has several implementations that behave differently, and lots of behavior is unspecified by the standard, so you may accidentally produce non-conforming code without knowing it.
2020-11-25T06:04:51Z janislago: yeah LOL
2020-11-25T06:05:13Z janislago: ive mostly been working with ecl and mkcl
2020-11-25T06:05:30Z janislago: need to try out installing some other implementations that are more supported
2020-11-25T06:05:38Z beach: ECL is supported.
2020-11-25T06:05:51Z janislago: true but it bugs out on windows
2020-11-25T06:05:52Z beach: In fact, the maintainer is very present here.
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2020-11-25T06:09:05Z janislago: could you relay to them that on windows 7 and probably later versions, there is an error with attempting to access files via (load) where an error signals for "the operation completed successfully." this occurs both when running as admin and running as a normal user
2020-11-25T06:09:42Z beach: I think jackdaniel will read it himself when he wakes up.
2020-11-25T06:09:57Z janislago: alright thank you very much
2020-11-25T06:10:03Z beach: Though, I am always surprised to learn that there are still people using Windows.
2020-11-25T06:11:06Z janislago: yeah its not my first choice for programming but win7 runs incredibly well even in 2020
2020-11-25T06:11:17Z janislago: the same cannot be said for win10
2020-11-25T06:17:31Z phantomics: Windows 7 is still usable? Do you have to stick to old hardware?
2020-11-25T06:17:40Z janislago: im on a dell latitude e5500
2020-11-25T06:17:50Z phantomics: Dunno how new that is
2020-11-25T06:18:06Z lotuseater: Bill Gates still gets updates for Windows XP.
2020-11-25T06:18:15Z janislago: its utterly ridiculous how usable win7 is
2020-11-25T06:18:17Z janislago: in 2020
2020-11-25T06:18:31Z phantomics: What, is that what he uses on his PC?
2020-11-25T06:18:45Z janislago: youre joking
2020-11-25T06:19:11Z janislago: he so doesnt use winxp
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2020-11-25T06:22:09Z lotuseater: phantomics no, Win 3.1 for playing DOOM
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2020-11-25T07:04:46Z exit70[m]: core 2 duo is still kinda usable today
2020-11-25T07:05:20Z exit70[m]: someone sold me core 2 duo mobo+cpu+ram for 10 bucks awhile ago
2020-11-25T07:06:05Z lotuseater: yes and with SSD much better
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2020-11-25T08:58:52Z phoe: good morning
2020-11-25T08:59:15Z beach: Hello phoe.
2020-11-25T08:59:41Z phoe: hey Robert
2020-11-25T09:01:29Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe.
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2020-11-25T09:56:36Z ldbeth: doog evensing
2020-11-25T09:58:30Z phoe: Doog Evensing sounds like a shady background character in some pulp fiction novel
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2020-11-25T10:41:55Z beach: Wow, that was a scary bug.  In SBCL I did (make-instance 'standard-generic-function :lambda-list '(x)) and initialize-instance signaled an error that the value of the :METHOD-COMBINATION initialization argument had to be a method-combination object, but that instead it was... the STANDARD method-combination object.  Restarting SBCL made the problem go away.
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2020-11-25T10:43:42Z beach: The combination of bugs like this (SBCL or my code, doesn't matter much) and inadequate tools for finding the problems makes the task of development less pleasant than it could be, and certainly way more time consuming.
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2020-11-25T10:50:13Z ck_: Were these types of one-off mystery bugs always around like that, or do you think these situations have become more frequent?
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2020-11-25T10:51:08Z beach: I have no reason to believe that they are more frequent now than before.
2020-11-25T10:52:28Z ck_: Increased project size that comes with more powerful environments and more people with access to them might be a conceivable reason
2020-11-25T10:53:23Z beach: Sure.  I have no hard evidence that it is a problem with SBCL.  But I couldn't guess what I could have done myself to make it happen.
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2020-11-25T10:54:16Z beach: My favorite reason is to blame too complex code, due to many decades of modifications.
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2020-11-25T10:54:59Z beach: Time for a lunch break to contemplate these things.
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2020-11-25T10:56:52Z ck_: Oh I see, the question wasn't meant to be sbcl specific.  Bon appetit.
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2020-11-25T11:42:17Z shka_: mysterious bugs
2020-11-25T11:51:38Z jmercouris: as mysterious as the night
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2020-11-25T11:58:13Z flip214: Is there a macro like DESTRUCTURING-BIND that takes an alist in instead of a plist?
2020-11-25T12:00:52Z phoe: I'm not aware of one; plists are convenient because they map to &key
2020-11-25T12:01:00Z phoe: but there's no equivalent for alists
2020-11-25T12:01:09Z phoe: s/equivalent/equivalent lambda list keyword/
2020-11-25T12:01:14Z jmercouris: I guess one could transform them
2020-11-25T12:01:31Z phoe waits for someone to suggest adding &assoc to the language
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2020-11-25T12:02:51Z jackdaniel: otoh alists are easier to access with functions like find (thanks to the key argument)
2020-11-25T12:02:58Z flip214: well, it's a simple macro to convert into a set of LET bindings with CDR ASSOC...
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2020-11-25T12:03:42Z phoe: that only works if keys are symbols adequate for binding
2020-11-25T12:03:53Z phoe: and that means that you want a particularly specialized alist
2020-11-25T12:04:10Z phoe: in plists, keys are traditionally symbols; that's not the tradition in alist
2020-11-25T12:04:20Z phoe: s/alist/alists
2020-11-25T12:04:52Z jackdaniel: flip214: for matching alists you probably want a pattern matcher
2020-11-25T12:04:58Z jackdaniel: like trivia/optima
2020-11-25T12:05:54Z flip214: jackdaniel: not matching, just (destructuring-alist (foo bar baz) (function-returning-an-alist) ....)
2020-11-25T12:06:29Z jackdaniel: could you elaborate? (destructuring-alist (foo bar baz) '((foo bar baz)) ...) ;?
2020-11-25T12:06:41Z jackdaniel: because I'm not sure what foo bar baz are bound to
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2020-11-25T12:07:04Z jackdaniel: or '((foo 1 2 3) (bar a b c) (baz x y z)) ;?
2020-11-25T12:07:12Z jackdaniel: and foo is bound then to (foo 1 2 3) etc
2020-11-25T12:08:21Z phoe: should foo bar baz be evaluated or taken as literals? (I assume the latter)
2020-11-25T12:09:11Z phoe: I understand the syntax to be like (d-a (foo bar baz) '((foo . 1) (bar . 2) (quux . 42) (foo . :one) (baz . 3)) ...)
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2020-11-25T12:11:10Z jackdaniel: i.e http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/8fd194b3-
2020-11-25T12:11:34Z jackdaniel: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/8fd194b3-foo.txt (to render in the browser)
2020-11-25T12:12:15Z jackdaniel: I don't think that destructuring is a good name though
2020-11-25T12:12:26Z jackdaniel: unsplicing-alist ;? exposing-alist ;?
2020-11-25T12:12:35Z jackdaniel: unrolling! :)
2020-11-25T12:12:46Z phoe: dissociating
2020-11-25T12:14:04Z lotuseater: so alists were for example like '((1 . #\a) (2 . #\b) (3 . #\c))
2020-11-25T12:14:08Z jackdaniel: things are still associated, but they are not in a list
2020-11-25T12:14:48Z jackdaniel: lotuseater: then you would need a better means to provide names for variables
2020-11-25T12:15:03Z jackdaniel: (and to signify, what should be bound to each)
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2020-11-25T12:17:00Z flip214: well, I guess the name syntax could be extended, again in analogy to lambda parameter lists...
2020-11-25T12:17:31Z flip214: (whatever-its-called ((foo 1) (bar "aa")) '(("aa" . 7) (1 . :none)) ...)
2020-11-25T12:17:46Z flip214: would get me foo as 7 and bar as :none
2020-11-25T12:18:09Z phoe: (let ((foo (assoc-value alist 1)) (bar (assoc-value alist "aa" :test #'equal))) ...)
2020-11-25T12:18:13Z jackdaniel: I don't understand the example above (nor why bar would give you :none)
2020-11-25T12:18:24Z phoe: jackdaniel: test was eql
2020-11-25T12:18:58Z jackdaniel: (eql 'bar 'bar) ;- T?
2020-11-25T12:19:16Z phoe: jackdaniel: (eql "aa" "aa")
2020-11-25T12:19:37Z jmercouris: (equal "aa" "aa")
2020-11-25T12:19:38Z phoe: bar is the bound variable, "aa" is the intermediate key, 7 is the value
2020-11-25T12:19:39Z jackdaniel: ah, there was a closing paren
2020-11-25T12:20:12Z phoe: flip214: you can already get what you want with LET over ASSOC-VALUE; I guess you can write a tiny macro to abstract the syntax
2020-11-25T12:20:23Z phoe: s/abstract/abstract away/
2020-11-25T12:20:43Z phoe: but I don't really see the point because you will still need to provide both the variable and the alist key
2020-11-25T12:20:49Z phoe: and, in the worst case, the test
2020-11-25T12:21:12Z phoe: so LET over a list of explicit ASSOC-VALUEs might still be good enough in the general case
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2020-11-25T12:23:14Z flip214: phoe: but at least I don't have to write assoc, the test, etc., N times (for each binding!)
2020-11-25T12:23:44Z flip214: never mind
2020-11-25T12:23:55Z phoe: flip214: if the test is the same then it can be provided only once
2020-11-25T12:24:07Z phoe: ...if you write a macro, that is
2020-11-25T12:25:42Z flip214: yeah, right ;)
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2020-11-25T15:16:24Z Kabriel: flip214: Touretzky's book gives an example macro destructuring (like I think you are talking about) on page 431.
2020-11-25T15:16:46Z Kabriel: He uses nested lists, but the destructuring works with dotted lists as well.
2020-11-25T15:17:29Z Kabriel: like this https://dpaste.com/88433HBVM
2020-11-25T15:19:24Z Kabriel: Sometimes I use destructing in the loop macro as well, with either local variable initialization (loop with (x . y) = (first alst) ...) or stepping (loop for (x . y) in alst ...) etc.
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2020-11-25T15:20:55Z Kabriel: CLHS 6.1.1.7 talks about it a little bit.
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2020-11-25T15:54:01Z eta: what happened to quickdocs.org?
2020-11-25T15:54:54Z jackdaniel: some people complained that it is very outdated and convinced the author to take the website down afaik
2020-11-25T15:57:16Z eta: hrm, sounds like a net loss
2020-11-25T15:57:53Z nkatte: https://github.com/quickdocs/quickdocs/issues/46
2020-11-25T15:58:00Z phoe: eta: quickref
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2020-11-25T15:59:17Z nkatte: Drama thread btw
2020-11-25T15:59:39Z eta: nkatte, yeah I just realised that thread has been hexstreamed (tm)
2020-11-25T15:59:47Z eta: phoe, cheers
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2020-11-25T16:02:38Z eta: phoe, (also wrt hexstream, he's definitely violating most of https://docs.github.com/en/free-pro-team@latest/github/site-policy/github-acceptable-use-policies if that's useful)
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2020-11-25T16:07:54Z phoe: eta: I'm aware.
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2020-11-25T16:28:19Z jmercouris: I'm trying to remember in the loop macro how to conditionally collect
2020-11-25T16:28:22Z jmercouris: is there a collect-if or something?
2020-11-25T16:28:39Z beach: when ... collect
2020-11-25T16:28:43Z easye: :when something :collect this
2020-11-25T16:28:48Z jmercouris: I wrote: (loop for i in (list 1 2 3) when nil collect i)
2020-11-25T16:28:55Z jmercouris: isn't there collect-if though?
2020-11-25T16:28:59Z beach: No.
2020-11-25T16:29:02Z jmercouris: or am I just imagining that it existed
2020-11-25T16:29:05Z jmercouris: hm.. :-D
2020-11-25T16:29:10Z jmercouris: thank you
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2020-11-25T16:29:28Z beach: Sure.
2020-11-25T16:29:33Z easye: Not in any standard LOOP
2020-11-25T16:29:59Z phoe: jmercouris: when ... collect ... is the idiom
2020-11-25T16:30:02Z phoe: there's nothing else
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2020-11-25T16:30:46Z jmercouris: here's another question
2020-11-25T16:30:51Z jmercouris: better to use WITH
2020-11-25T16:30:55Z jmercouris: or to use a let around the loop?
2020-11-25T16:31:10Z beach: They are equivalent.
2020-11-25T16:31:18Z beach: WITH saves an indentation level.
2020-11-25T16:31:45Z beach: Horizontal whitespace can be a precious resource.
2020-11-25T16:31:53Z phoe: I usually go with WITH, but there's no semantic difference
2020-11-25T16:31:53Z _death: there is a COLLECT IT though
2020-11-25T16:32:08Z phoe: _death: oh no, anaphora
2020-11-25T16:32:51Z jmercouris: hm, I see
2020-11-25T16:33:05Z jmercouris: speaking of which, what are anaphoric macros
2020-11-25T16:33:11Z jmercouris: I've read several descriptions, but still don't quite get it
2020-11-25T16:33:37Z jmercouris: maybe what confuses me about it is the usage of the word "anaphora"
2020-11-25T16:33:44Z jmercouris: which seems to be used incorrectly by english speakers
2020-11-25T16:33:52Z jmercouris: perhaps I should ignore this word and pretend I don't know it
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2020-11-25T16:34:24Z beach: "the use of a word referring back to a word used earlier..."
2020-11-25T16:34:28Z beach: Seems right to me.
2020-11-25T16:34:35Z jmercouris: it certainly isn't
2020-11-25T16:35:02Z jmercouris: it mostly means "in direction", I can't really translate it
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2020-11-25T16:35:10Z jmercouris: like "in this vein" almost
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2020-11-25T16:35:27Z beach: Are you saying that my quotation is wrong?
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2020-11-25T16:35:36Z beach: I typed "define anaphora" to Google.
2020-11-25T16:35:46Z jmercouris: that's exactly what I'm saying
2020-11-25T16:35:57Z jmercouris: some things cannot be translated
2020-11-25T16:36:09Z beach: "translated"?
2020-11-25T16:36:13Z beach: I'm confused.
2020-11-25T16:36:18Z jmercouris: anaphora is a Greek word
2020-11-25T16:36:27Z jmercouris: of which I know the meaning, because I learned it as my first language
2020-11-25T16:36:37Z Bike: well, it's also an english word, cos we borrowed it from greek.
2020-11-25T16:36:40Z jmercouris: the way english speakers are using it is nonsensical
2020-11-25T16:36:45Z beach: Oh, but words change their meanings all the time.
2020-11-25T16:36:45Z Bike: and maybe distorted the meaning? i don't know. that happens sometimes.
2020-11-25T16:36:55Z jmercouris: it certainly confuses me to no end
2020-11-25T16:37:04Z jmercouris: so I am saying, best I pretend I don't know the meaning of the true word
2020-11-25T16:37:10Z beach: Take "eventually" in English.
2020-11-25T16:37:15Z jmercouris: if I take your translation, it makes sense
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2020-11-25T16:37:25Z jmercouris: if I take the real meaning of the word, it makes no sense to me
2020-11-25T16:37:47Z beach: If you did that with all imported words, no text would make sense to you.
2020-11-25T16:37:49Z _death: so you're saying it's a false friend?
2020-11-25T16:38:05Z jmercouris: you could reasonably say it is a false friend because the meaning is too distorted
2020-11-25T16:38:12Z jmercouris: this happens often with ancient greek words
2020-11-25T16:38:17Z jmercouris: consider the word 'siren'
2020-11-25T16:38:31Z beach: _death: It is just that the meanings of words change over time after they have been imported.
2020-11-25T16:38:34Z Bike: yeah, it must be confusing with greek, since english uses a lot of words taken from greek
2020-11-25T16:39:03Z Bike: but that kind of things happen a lot. my favorite is that "marshal", an extremely high military rank, literally means "horse servant" or "horse keeper"
2020-11-25T16:39:12Z jmercouris: lol, that's great
2020-11-25T16:39:17Z jmercouris: that and the fun colonel, kernel debacle
2020-11-25T16:39:22Z phoe: jmercouris: anaphoric macros are basically macros that define their own inner context for you to use
2020-11-25T16:39:37Z _death: "virus", "vagina", etc.
2020-11-25T16:39:39Z jmercouris: phoe: I see, I think it has finally clicked, thank you
2020-11-25T16:39:43Z beach: Bike: Yeah, there are tons of such examples in every language I know.
2020-11-25T16:39:49Z mfiano: I think in Greek it means to repeat the same thing, being a word of multiple words in succession, rather than using "it" etc
2020-11-25T16:39:52Z phoe: if we are talking about some sort of programming language, then "it" in such a context will refer to that language
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2020-11-25T16:40:02Z phoe: "this programming language, I really like it"
2020-11-25T16:40:10Z phoe: "when this number is even, collect it"
2020-11-25T16:40:23Z phoe: as opposed to "when this number is even, collect this number"
2020-11-25T16:40:36Z phoe: both are equivalent but the former is something some people consider nicer to read
2020-11-25T16:40:46Z _death: this conversation incl. phoe's example highlights issues with anaphora
2020-11-25T16:40:49Z phoe: ...and what some people consider troublesome because of lack of explicit context
2020-11-25T16:41:11Z _death: phoe: the IT there will collect the result of the predicate, not the number
2020-11-25T16:41:12Z phoe: most importabtly, the variable IT is completely unbound lexically
2020-11-25T16:41:17Z phoe: ...unless you macroexpand
2020-11-25T16:41:20Z phoe: oh, yes
2020-11-25T16:41:24Z phoe: that's one more issue
2020-11-25T16:41:47Z phoe: (loop ... when x collect it) - IT refers to X
2020-11-25T16:42:00Z phoe: (loop ... when (oddp x) collect it) - IT refers to the value returned by ODDP
2020-11-25T16:42:25Z phoe: and in the general case it cannot be any other way, really
2020-11-25T16:42:43Z phoe: because then you run into (loop ... when (foop x y) collect it)
2020-11-25T16:42:46Z jmercouris: hm, you've convinced me not to use them
2020-11-25T16:42:47Z phoe: what do you collect?
2020-11-25T16:43:14Z ck_: was it yesterday or the day before that someone said, not verbatim, "[something like arrows] seems like a a source of confusion when reading other people's code" ?
2020-11-25T16:43:22Z jmercouris: it was yesterday
2020-11-25T16:43:28Z jmercouris: are we getting into that again?
2020-11-25T16:43:36Z ck_: I see some similarity
2020-11-25T16:43:54Z phoe: anaphoric macros are similar to arrow macros in that it binds variables
2020-11-25T16:44:09Z phoe: arrow macros implicitly bind anonymous vars, whereas anaphora implicitly bind named vars
2020-11-25T16:44:20Z jmercouris: yesterday all my troubles so far away, now it looks as though they are here to stay, oh I believe, in yesterday...
2020-11-25T16:44:34Z ck_: I don't, because it is not reproducible
2020-11-25T16:44:54Z jmercouris: ah, here is a tough question I was having
2020-11-25T16:45:03Z jmercouris: what about algorithms with inherent randomness in their definition
2020-11-25T16:45:12Z jmercouris: these cannot be made "reproducible" can they?
2020-11-25T16:45:28Z jmercouris: for example, genetic algorithms contain EXPLICIT requirements of randomness
2020-11-25T16:45:42Z ck_: Anyway on the topic of any sort of 'dsl' like look or arrows, I think it is all right to require consistency of usage inside a codebase, and not to try achieving some general overarching coding standard
2020-11-25T16:45:56Z ck_: like loop*
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2020-11-25T16:48:30Z ck_: jmercouris: well, you could achieve that by fixing the randomness seed.  Or, if a 'true' source of randomness is used, by relaxing the requirements
2020-11-25T16:48:52Z ck_: (passing a statistical test, for example)
2020-11-25T16:49:19Z jmercouris: so it is not truly possible without making the source of randomness fixed?
2020-11-25T16:49:25Z phoe: jmercouris: stochastic algorithms can be still well-defined
2020-11-25T16:49:31Z jmercouris: that is the conclusion I came to as well
2020-11-25T16:49:33Z phoe: e.g. see the general Monte Carlo approximation method
2020-11-25T16:49:44Z phoe: or do you mean verifying them in some way?
2020-11-25T16:49:59Z phoe: like, for testing purposes, or something?
2020-11-25T16:50:13Z jmercouris: well, Pierre and I were having a discussion about reproducibility
2020-11-25T16:50:24Z jmercouris: I want to create models utilizing genetic algorithms to include in Nyxt
2020-11-25T16:50:26Z _death: generally you want different seeds only for particular fields like games or cryptography
2020-11-25T16:50:39Z jmercouris: and Pierre was saying, they have to be reproducible so that they can be trusted by the end-user
2020-11-25T16:50:48Z jmercouris: I was trying to tell him, that I do not believe we can make them reproducible
2020-11-25T16:51:06Z phoe: as long as you can represent the complete state of your algorithm in a reproducible format, you will have reproducible results
2020-11-25T16:51:09Z phoe: clhs random-state
2020-11-25T16:51:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_rnd_st.htm
2020-11-25T16:51:15Z phoe: that's one example.
2020-11-25T16:51:41Z jmercouris: how do the users know that we used our algorithm to produce the model we ship with Nyxt?
2020-11-25T16:51:55Z phoe: they must be able to reproduce it from scratch
2020-11-25T16:52:07Z jmercouris: therefore we would need a way to collect and pipe in randomness
2020-11-25T16:52:09Z save-lisp-or-die: jmercouris If you're interested in where the English word 'anaphora' came from (that is, how it came to be an English word), you have to look to the study of Rhetorical Figures in Classical Greek and Latin poetry by classicists and other folks to study rhetoric in (mostly ancient) literary works.
2020-11-25T16:52:19Z phoe: jmercouris: sure, yes
2020-11-25T16:52:36Z phoe: if you control the seeds of your randomness, or if you can collect all random input passed to your algorithm, then you can win
2020-11-25T16:52:45Z jmercouris: seems a pain in the popo
2020-11-25T16:52:51Z phoe: depends on what you are doing
2020-11-25T16:52:54Z jmercouris: what we do for the users...
2020-11-25T16:52:58Z phoe: a random state is usually a short value
2020-11-25T16:53:07Z phoe: like, not kilobytes of text
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2020-11-25T16:53:16Z jmercouris: I know, but I will have to make the algorithm accept a list of 'random' inputs
2020-11-25T16:53:34Z jmercouris: I guess I could make our own 'random'
2020-11-25T16:53:50Z jmercouris: (defun my-random ...) that can optionally accept a sequence of 'random' values
2020-11-25T16:54:02Z jmercouris: so that I need not taint the actual algorithm with this
2020-11-25T16:54:07Z phoe: a wrapper around randomness functions, sure
2020-11-25T16:54:17Z jmercouris: I can sleep better now
2020-11-25T16:54:17Z jmercouris: thanks phoe
2020-11-25T16:54:35Z phoe: if you provide predefined data, it uses this; otherwise, it employs the RNG
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2020-11-25T16:55:03Z jmercouris: save-lisp-or-die: that is very outside of my scope of knowledge I am afraid :-D
2020-11-25T16:55:11Z jmercouris: phoe: yeah, that's what I will have to do
2020-11-25T16:55:18Z jmercouris: and I'll have to publish the sequence of 'rng' used in our image
2020-11-25T16:56:23Z easye: "Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is, of course, living in a state of sin."
2020-11-25T16:57:11Z save-lisp-or-die: jmercouris: indeed - I think I meant to suggest that it is a piece of technical jargon in a small constellation of abstruse academic fields, and hence, is perhaps a little perverted from any "original" meaning it ought to have had. I agree that it is literally a little confused. Anyway, sorry to be OT.
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2020-11-25T16:59:20Z easye: Knuth's chapter on random algorithms in _The Art of..._ really helped me understand the subject.
2020-11-25T16:59:51Z easye: err "chapter on algorithmic random number generation"
2020-11-25T17:00:12Z ck_: easye: ah right, especially his tale about the "super randomness" algorithm of his college days :)
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2020-11-25T17:02:27Z easye: Yep.  It was great to read Knuth talk about his own mistake.  Made him even more approachable for the "tall Yoda" that he is.
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2020-11-25T17:33:59Z skidd0: i'm struggling to figure out how to resolve a permissions error
2020-11-25T17:34:21Z skidd0: hunchentoot needs to access a privkey.pem i have from letsencrypt
2020-11-25T17:34:44Z skidd0: error i get is "Failed to find the TRUENAME of [path]: Permission denied"
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2020-11-25T17:35:21Z skidd0: the lets encrypt docs mention using chgrp and chmod 0640 "to allow the server to read /etc/lectsencrpy/live/$domain/privkey.pem"
2020-11-25T17:35:56Z skidd0: i have tried chgrp and chown to my linux user and group on that file
2020-11-25T17:36:12Z skidd0: but i still get the permission denied
2020-11-25T17:36:28Z phoe: oh wait a second
2020-11-25T17:36:32Z skidd0: something with  SB-IMPL::RESOLVE-PROBLEMATIC-SYMLINK
2020-11-25T17:36:35Z phoe: which pathname do you provide?
2020-11-25T17:36:41Z phoe: like, what's the pathname literal? or string?
2020-11-25T17:36:49Z skidd0: for the ssl-key?
2020-11-25T17:36:52Z phoe: yes
2020-11-25T17:37:10Z phoe: if it includes any kinds of environment variables then they must be first resolved and spliced in
2020-11-25T17:37:18Z phoe: AFAIK SBCL pathname engine does not perform this on its own
2020-11-25T17:37:32Z skidd0: #P"/etc/letsencrypt/live/www.skidd0.com/privkey.pem"
2020-11-25T17:37:45Z skidd0: their docs use the $domain
2020-11-25T17:37:49Z phoe: hmmm
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2020-11-25T17:38:02Z skidd0: it can read the fullchain.pem file just fine
2020-11-25T17:38:05Z phoe: what happens if you PROBE-FILE on that pathname? still permission denied?
2020-11-25T17:38:11Z skidd0: let me try
2020-11-25T17:38:14Z phoe: maybe it's some sort of a unix permission issue
2020-11-25T17:38:41Z phoe: is the user SBCL is running under allowed to read from that file? try with standard unix utils like cat
2020-11-25T17:38:42Z jackdaniel: or it is some kind of selinux/systemd mumbo jambo
2020-11-25T17:38:42Z skidd0: NIL
2020-11-25T17:38:47Z phoe: or selinux, yes
2020-11-25T17:39:03Z phoe: at which point I cannot help you because the last time I used selinux I ended up uninstalling it out of frustration
2020-11-25T17:39:12Z skidd0: so i'd need to su SBCL first right
2020-11-25T17:39:17Z phoe: uh
2020-11-25T17:39:20Z phoe: no, not really
2020-11-25T17:39:23Z phoe: don't run it as root
2020-11-25T17:39:29Z phoe: just make sure that your local user can read that file.
2020-11-25T17:39:30Z skidd0: oh wait i misread
2020-11-25T17:39:31Z jackdaniel: you may patch the kernel to update each user uid to 0
2020-11-25T17:39:41Z phoe: jackdaniel: that's dangerous as fuck
2020-11-25T17:39:51Z phoe: why would you give root to everyone
2020-11-25T17:39:58Z jackdaniel: that's also silly, still sounds like fun
2020-11-25T17:40:03Z skidd0: oh. hmm. my user cannot cat the file
2020-11-25T17:40:09Z phoe: there!
2020-11-25T17:40:11Z phoe: that's the issue
2020-11-25T17:40:15Z skidd0: so my chown and chgrp didn't work as expected
2020-11-25T17:40:22Z phoe: make the file available to your user, and SBCL will read it.
2020-11-25T17:41:14Z _death: I'd recommend using nginx and a reverse proxy for hunchentoot
2020-11-25T17:41:32Z skidd0: ls -la shows the owner and group of that line (live/$domain/privkey.pem -> archive/$domain/privkey1.pem)
2020-11-25T17:41:35Z skidd0: as my user
2020-11-25T17:41:39Z skidd0: yet i cannot read it
2020-11-25T17:42:03Z skidd0: i already have it behind nginx
2020-11-25T17:42:20Z skidd0: but hunchentoot still needs to be set up for the ssl-acceptor, right?
2020-11-25T17:42:26Z skidd0: not just nginx
2020-11-25T17:42:33Z _death: no.. you don't need to use ssl-acceptor that way
2020-11-25T17:42:54Z skidd0: oh
2020-11-25T17:42:57Z phoe: skidd0: you can have nginx as the proxy that communicates with external world via HTTPS
2020-11-25T17:43:02Z skidd0: right
2020-11-25T17:43:04Z phoe: and use HTTP for internal traffic.
2020-11-25T17:43:13Z skidd0: i assumed internally would need to stay https too
2020-11-25T17:43:14Z skidd0: silly me
2020-11-25T17:43:26Z phoe: I've done that setup a few times except, but with haproxy instead of nginx; it's really nice to use.
2020-11-25T17:43:38Z skidd0: well i'll end up going that route then
2020-11-25T17:43:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2020-11-25T17:43:52Z skidd0: but i'd still like to figure out this permissions thing for my own education
2020-11-25T17:44:08Z skidd0: it's curious that my user owns the link but can't read the file
2020-11-25T17:44:55Z _death: does the file have correct permissions?
2020-11-25T17:44:56Z phoe: do you own the directory?
2020-11-25T17:45:04Z phoe: like, can you read inside it or something
2020-11-25T17:45:11Z skidd0: ah that might me it
2020-11-25T17:45:11Z phoe: maybe it's the dir permissions.
2020-11-25T17:46:57Z skidd0: my user and user's group are set for the directories but i still can't read it
2020-11-25T17:47:30Z skidd0: read permissions for owner, group, and everyone are set
2020-11-25T17:47:34Z skidd0: for the dirs
2020-11-25T17:47:43Z skidd0: and the link
2020-11-25T17:48:05Z skidd0: and the file the link points to
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2020-11-25T17:49:02Z ck_: skidd0: is the x bit set for the directory as well?
2020-11-25T17:49:09Z _death: can you cat the symlink target?
2020-11-25T17:49:18Z skidd0: no
2020-11-25T17:49:25Z skidd0: no to ck_
2020-11-25T17:49:48Z skidd0: no to _death
2020-11-25T17:50:32Z _death: skidd0: so likely it's either (i) it's not group readable or (ii) you're on in the group
2020-11-25T17:51:03Z ck_: skidd0: for example: mkdir -p foo/bar; echo "baz" > foo/bar/baz; chmod 440 foo/bar; # ==> cat: foo/bar/baz: Permission denied
2020-11-25T17:51:05Z skidd0: i can now cat the target file
2020-11-25T17:51:16Z skidd0: but not the link
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2020-11-25T17:54:17Z ck_: skidd0: failed to put the cat command before the output, but you can hopefully see what I meant
2020-11-25T17:55:07Z skidd0: you need x perms for cat?
2020-11-25T17:55:54Z ck_: like to cd into a directory, yes.
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2020-11-25T18:01:57Z skidd0: i gave up and just set up nginx :/
2020-11-25T18:02:05Z skidd0: but that works
2020-11-25T18:02:41Z skidd0: the permissions down the dirs for the target are the same as for the link
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2020-11-25T18:02:51Z skidd0: i can cat the target. not the link.
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2020-11-25T18:03:43Z skidd0: i really appreciate all the help ck_ , phoe and _death
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2020-11-25T18:29:16Z pve: Hello! If I have a function, say "parse-token", that contains a bunch of local functions defined with "labels", can I assume that no memory is allocated at runtime for the labels (i.e. "defining" them) when parse-token is called?
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2020-11-25T18:30:54Z _death: if you don't pass them around..
2020-11-25T18:31:22Z pve: _death: I don't, they are just helper functions used in parse-token
2020-11-25T18:31:43Z pve: but ok, thank you
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2020-11-25T18:34:38Z Jonatha54: hello. is there some irc client based on lisp?
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2020-11-25T18:35:26Z wayneeseguin: https://picolisp.com/wiki/?ircclient
2020-11-25T18:35:28Z wayneeseguin: ?
2020-11-25T18:35:47Z Jonatha54: let me see. thanks
2020-11-25T18:36:32Z lotuseater: Jonatha54: yes, I currently write out of emacs
2020-11-25T18:37:06Z _death: there are a bunch, some in elisp like erc or rcirc.. other in CL like beirc
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2020-11-25T18:37:26Z pve: _death: Hmm actually some of them are predicates that get passed to some of the labels in the function, but none of them ever leave the scope of parse-token. Does that change the situation?
2020-11-25T18:37:27Z Jonatha54: thanks wayneeseguin It does look good.
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2020-11-25T18:38:11Z _death: pve: you may want to read about the dynamic-extent declaration then
2020-11-25T18:38:46Z pve: (and they don't capture any bindings)
2020-11-25T18:38:54Z pve: _death: alright, will do
2020-11-25T18:39:20Z Jonatha54: Pico lisp does look look but I guess it's for Linux. am not using linux although I would love to try
2020-11-25T18:39:52Z Jonatha54: lotuseater thanks for sharing. I read whole erc page today
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2020-11-25T18:40:27Z Jonatha54: as the author describes in Picolisp am also not satisfied with most irc clients
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2020-11-25T18:41:19Z Jonatha54: erc does look promising.
2020-11-25T18:41:21Z lotuseater: but just as I used erc-tls it worked for here
2020-11-25T18:42:09Z Jonatha54: I tried to connect to my znc account using erc-tls but couldn't
2020-11-25T18:42:27Z lotuseater: hmmm
2020-11-25T18:42:40Z Jonatha54: do I need to do something extra to connect?
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2020-11-25T18:43:33Z Jonatha54: server: us4.ircnow.org:+31337 (SSL)
2020-11-25T18:43:47Z Jonatha54: these are my server details
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2020-11-25T18:45:01Z lotuseater: i use the port 6697
2020-11-25T18:45:08Z wayneeseguin: Also due to history I definitely second the motion that native Emacs modes should do well.
2020-11-25T18:45:37Z wayneeseguin: @Jonatha54 I'm on Windows 10 :)
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2020-11-25T18:45:51Z wayneeseguin: I'm using WSL2/Ubuntu + WeeChat
2020-11-25T18:46:01Z Jonatha54: do you use pico lisp wayneeseguin
2020-11-25T18:46:14Z wayneeseguin: No, just know of it, I'm using the configuration above
2020-11-25T18:46:30Z Jonatha54: oh. okay.
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2020-11-25T18:48:13Z Jonatha54: I was expecting some common lisp irc client. if it exists
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2020-11-25T18:49:40Z phoe: Jonatha54: there is one
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2020-11-25T18:49:45Z phoe: beirc, based on McCLIM
2020-11-25T18:49:57Z Jonatha54: oh. yes. let me check
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2020-11-25T18:52:37Z Jonatha54: https://www.cliki.net/beirc
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2020-11-25T18:54:28Z Jonatha54: I read about it. I guess I'll try erc or rcirc
2020-11-25T18:57:20Z Jonatha54: thanks all...
2020-11-25T18:57:43Z phoe: no problem
2020-11-25T18:57:52Z phoe: feel free to hang around and ask questions too
2020-11-25T18:58:06Z Jonatha54: appreciate.
2020-11-25T18:58:31Z phoe: <3
2020-11-25T18:58:47Z Jonatha54: to hack erc, I need to learn elisp ?
2020-11-25T18:58:54Z phoe: hmmm
2020-11-25T18:59:02Z Jonatha54: or can common lisp do
2020-11-25T18:59:03Z Jonatha54: ?
2020-11-25T18:59:05Z phoe: erc is the emacs lisp client, right? in this case, yes, it might be necessary
2020-11-25T18:59:15Z phoe: emacs is written in elisp, not Common Lisp
2020-11-25T18:59:28Z phoe: these two are similar, but not identical
2020-11-25T18:59:37Z Jonatha54: I was told they're similar. yes
2020-11-25T19:00:11Z _death: both are worth learning, in my experience
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2020-11-25T19:00:47Z aeth: Both share a common origin (historic Lisps), but elisp was far more conservative.
2020-11-25T19:00:55Z aeth: This gives elisp an archaic feeling.
2020-11-25T19:01:13Z lotuseater: yes Richard Stallman doesn't like some stuff from CL
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2020-11-25T19:01:23Z aeth: It's almost like C vs C++. C's way more conservative than modern C++.
2020-11-25T19:01:24Z White_Flame: plus wanted it easier to implement
2020-11-25T19:01:38Z Jonatha54: can I ask a question?
2020-11-25T19:01:43Z lotuseater: of course
2020-11-25T19:01:52Z lotuseater: and *urgs* C++ :D
2020-11-25T19:02:07Z phoe: Jonatha54: just ask away!
2020-11-25T19:02:12Z phoe: no need to ask about asking
2020-11-25T19:02:13Z Jonatha54: why do people write irc clients in one language and it's scripting language in other?
2020-11-25T19:02:27Z phoe: any concrete examples?
2020-11-25T19:02:36Z lotuseater: yes leave the metaactivities for programming :3
2020-11-25T19:02:54Z Jonatha54: irssi is written C. scripting language is perl
2020-11-25T19:02:59Z phoe: oh right; #lispcafe might be better for this question
2020-11-25T19:03:05Z phoe: #lisp is mostly on topic to Common Lisp
2020-11-25T19:03:13Z White_Flame: it's hard to script in C
2020-11-25T19:03:19Z Jonatha54: oh okay. I will join that
2020-11-25T19:03:24Z lotuseater: because scripting is just "frontend" and easier to adapt for other people?
2020-11-25T19:03:34Z aeth: Jonatha54: This false dichotomy was pretty common in the past, especially on Unix-like OSes. CL has always violated this false dichotomy, of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ousterhout's_dichotomy
2020-11-25T19:03:37Z White_Flame: the question is really "Why do C/C++/Java/etc programmers choose a different language for scripting?"
2020-11-25T19:04:03Z White_Flame: and the answer is that those languages don't deal with source code at runtime very well
2020-11-25T19:04:13Z lotuseater: I now have to mention Greenspun's tenth rule.
2020-11-25T19:04:26Z phoe: nor is their runtime capable of compiling stuff at, well, runtime
2020-11-25T19:04:37Z aeth: White_Flame: Right, people see "this compilation takes forever" and then they think "I should embed an interpreter"
2020-11-25T19:04:39Z Jonatha54: White_Flame that sounds fitting
2020-11-25T19:04:47Z White_Flame: phoe: technically it can be done, and has been done.  it just sucks and usually is not portable
2020-11-25T19:05:40Z Jonatha54: that's why I am attracted to erc / rcirc after using all clients. it's source and scripting language are same
2020-11-25T19:05:41Z aeth: It's often advertised as a(n application!) feature. Iirc, "hot reloading".
2020-11-25T19:05:42Z phoe: White_Flame: yes; I'm talking about the general case
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2020-11-25T19:05:50Z White_Flame: eg, generate a C file, call the c compiler to make a dll/so, and link that at runtime, etc
2020-11-25T19:05:58Z phoe: ECL works like that :D
2020-11-25T19:06:01Z White_Flame: yep
2020-11-25T19:06:07Z phoe: if you use the C compiler, that is
2020-11-25T19:07:12Z White_Flame: java is slightly more complete in those features, but it's still a huge ball of wax that's not done that often either
2020-11-25T19:07:13Z lotuseater: and you can't control how C compiles stuff
2020-11-25T19:07:39Z phoe: lotuseater: uhhhhh what exactly do you mean
2020-11-25T19:07:39Z lotuseater: yes I wondered when first get to know Guy Steele also worked on Java
2020-11-25T19:07:45Z White_Flame: and this is why people are so unfamiliar with metaprogramming, or consider it to be unworkable, while Lisp makes it nearly transparent and common
2020-11-25T19:07:46Z phoe: gcc has a truckload of flags
2020-11-25T19:07:53Z lotuseater: phoe: ehm ... *sweat*
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2020-11-25T19:09:06Z lotuseater: phoe: compiler macros for first :P
2020-11-25T19:09:15Z phoe: oh
2020-11-25T19:09:27Z phoe: that's not really a compiler thing; it's a language thing
2020-11-25T19:10:07Z phoe: and I wonder if you can instrument a C compiler to choose one implementation of a function over the other at compilation time... #if and #ifdef come to mind
2020-11-25T19:10:22Z lotuseater: hehe okay ^^
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2020-11-25T19:10:24Z phoe: these are primitive but kinda work
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2020-11-25T19:11:22Z lotuseater: hm it would be possible to choose special functions like in erlang with foo/1, foo/2, ...
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2020-11-25T19:11:36Z phoe: not in CL
2020-11-25T19:11:42Z lotuseater: or like in Haskell monomorphing with SPECIALIZE pragma
2020-11-25T19:11:49Z lotuseater: why not?
2020-11-25T19:11:52Z phoe: a function named by a symbol must have a constant lambda list
2020-11-25T19:12:09Z phoe: if anything, you can use &optional and check whether optional args were provided
2020-11-25T19:12:15Z phoe: this way you can emulate this sort of behavior.
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2020-11-25T19:12:27Z dim: defmethod?
2020-11-25T19:12:30Z lotuseater: nono, I mean the special functions have the symbols with slash and number of args
2020-11-25T19:12:32Z phoe: so like (defun fn (foo &optional bar baz quux) ...)
2020-11-25T19:12:37Z phoe: oh!
2020-11-25T19:12:43Z iarebatman: Casey (hand made hero) does an interesting thing in his game engine near the very start of his efforts.  He goes through the effort to isolate his game engine code from his actual game logic code.  He declares all of his game logic code as function pointers that his game engine uses - then he is able to on-the-fly swap out his game logic DLL with a new version..
2020-11-25T19:12:48Z phoe: (defun foo/1 (bar) ...) (defun foo/2 (bar baz) ...)
2020-11-25T19:12:53Z lotuseater: and then there is macro FOO which looks how many args and chooses right function
2020-11-25T19:13:07Z phoe: you can do that, foo/1 is a legal symbol
2020-11-25T19:13:16Z lotuseater: dim: no defmethod will not this way
2020-11-25T19:13:28Z lotuseater: it just dispatches on arg classes
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2020-11-25T19:13:35Z phoe: dim: defgeneric has the same limitation, it more or less fixes the lambda list
2020-11-25T19:13:38Z dim: okay, I must admit I didn't read the backlog, that was just a shot in the dark ;-)
2020-11-25T19:13:42Z phoe: :D
2020-11-25T19:13:44Z phoe: you missed
2020-11-25T19:13:53Z lotuseater: cbaggers also explains that in his 2h macro video
2020-11-25T19:13:58Z dim: that's only fair, I should open my eyes now maybe...
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2020-11-25T19:14:56Z _death: lotuseater: something like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2173#2173 ?
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2020-11-25T19:15:23Z lotuseater: yes seems so
2020-11-25T19:15:32Z lotuseater: hehe "defprologish"
2020-11-25T19:15:46Z decent-username: Hi, I'm having trouble loading SDL2 via quicklisp on OpenBSD. Here's the error: https://paste.gnome.org/pv8qypcev/csrxin/raw . I've already installed c2ffi, but that's apparently not enough. Can anyone maybe help?
2020-11-25T19:16:07Z phoe: uh wait a second, this comes from autowrap
2020-11-25T19:16:08Z decent-username: A lot of fun libraries depend on SDL2. lispbuilder-sdl works fine though. :^D
2020-11-25T19:16:15Z phoe: the REPL will show the real error.
2020-11-25T19:16:39Z decent-username: phoe: alright, I'll take a look
2020-11-25T19:16:39Z phoe: like, ASDF's "COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while compiling ..." is not the real error we are looking for
2020-11-25T19:16:54Z phoe: it will print the real error to the REPL before going debugga on you
2020-11-25T19:17:07Z _death: lotuseater: wrote this some 10 years ago so may be buggy ;)
2020-11-25T19:18:01Z lotuseater: _death: but it's cool
2020-11-25T19:18:56Z decent-username: phoe: Here's the actual error output: https://paste.gnome.org/ppjaasexj/lrstnr/raw
2020-11-25T19:19:22Z phoe: decent-username: "-A" "x86_64-unknownNIL"
2020-11-25T19:19:25Z phoe: this seems troublesome
2020-11-25T19:19:29Z decent-username: yeah
2020-11-25T19:19:34Z decent-username: just read that.
2020-11-25T19:19:39Z decent-username: uhh
2020-11-25T19:19:51Z phoe: can you open /home/user/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-sdl2-20201016-git/src/autowrap.lisp in emacs and try to C-c C-k this file?
2020-11-25T19:20:00Z phoe: slime will tell you which exactly form fails to compile
2020-11-25T19:20:02Z decent-username: roger that
2020-11-25T19:20:05Z phoe: ...oh wait a second
2020-11-25T19:20:07Z phoe: we know the form
2020-11-25T19:20:12Z phoe: AUTOWRAP:C-INCLUDE
2020-11-25T19:20:17Z wayneeseguin: lotuseater: URL for cbaggers video?
2020-11-25T19:20:36Z phoe: maybe it does not support openbsd
2020-11-25T19:20:44Z phoe: which would sound like https://github.com/rpav/cl-autowrap/issues/new
2020-11-25T19:20:56Z lotuseater: wayneeseguin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygKXeLKhiTI
2020-11-25T19:21:04Z wayneeseguin: Thanks!
2020-11-25T19:22:02Z decent-username: phoe: yeah, it errors out when compiling autowrap:c-include
2020-11-25T19:22:17Z phoe: likely it doesn't know what to expand into on BSD
2020-11-25T19:22:27Z decent-username: yes
2020-11-25T19:22:30Z phoe: it should signal a more meaningful macroexpansion error rather than just going NIL on you
2020-11-25T19:22:34Z phoe: file an issue!
2020-11-25T19:23:23Z decent-username: But I don't have an github account. :D
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2020-11-25T19:23:33Z phoe: well then
2020-11-25T19:23:40Z decent-username: I could mail an issue
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2020-11-25T19:27:31Z decent-username: I guess I could create a github account over Tor. Connecting to the web with javascript enabled and over the clearnet is spooky.
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2020-11-25T19:27:55Z wayneeseguin: lotuseater: ZOMG <3 thank you so much for this, I've been reading ancient posts and code to learn, these videos appear to be exactly what I have been looking for <3
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2020-11-25T19:28:53Z lotuseater: you're welcome :3 but the documentation for his CEPL is not new enough :/
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2020-11-25T19:35:03Z wayneeseguin: oh :(
2020-11-25T19:35:24Z wayneeseguin: That's a challenge with OSS efforts, time drift :)
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2020-11-25T20:05:45Z pve: lotuseater: it's a bit of a joke, but I made this a long time ago: https://github.com/pve1/incongruent-methods
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2020-11-25T20:10:37Z lotuseater: pve: :3
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2020-11-25T20:12:12Z daphnis: i have a function that takes symbols as arguments that i want to export; but when i call it from another package, the symbols passed to it are from that other package .. what's the normal way to solve this?
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2020-11-25T20:13:46Z Bike: you should indicate the package the argument symbols are in.
2020-11-25T20:13:57Z Bike: sometimes it's convenient to use keyword symbols for this
2020-11-25T20:14:26Z Bike: like, if your package is foo, you can do (foo:my-function 'foo:symbol)
2020-11-25T20:14:34Z Bike: or with keywords, (foo:my-function :symbol)
2020-11-25T20:14:47Z daphnis: keywords seem less cumbersome
2020-11-25T20:15:08Z Bike: it depends on the nature of the function. sometimes it's nice to allow multiple namespaces
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2020-11-25T20:15:34Z Bike: if the set of allowed symbols is fixed, keywords are generally good
2020-11-25T20:16:54Z phoe: daphnis: why do you want to export symbols in package A from inside package B?
2020-11-25T20:16:59Z phoe: this sounds somewhat weird
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2020-11-25T20:17:55Z phoe: this changes the interface of that package, and I have no idea why you would like to modify it as a part of standard program operation
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2020-11-25T20:18:14Z phoe: it is possible, just the "why" you have is puzzling to me
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2020-11-25T20:22:51Z daphnis: phoe: say i have a function #'foo in package A that returns a list of entities to which the symbol names given as arguments pertain.  f.ex., (foo 'berries) returns a list of berries and (foo 'fruits 'berries) returns a list of fruits and berries.  this function can't be exported, it seems
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2020-11-25T20:23:45Z daphnis: since 'berries in A and 'berries in B are different symbols
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2020-11-25T20:30:41Z pve: daphnis: the symbol "FOO" can surely be exported
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2020-11-25T20:32:27Z Kabriel: Is there an easy way to replace a symbol in the restvar (e.g. &body) in a macro definition so that you can provide that symbol to the user?
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2020-11-25T20:33:08Z Kabriel: Not provide, but allow them to use it in the body, like loop allows you to use "it".
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2020-11-25T20:34:27Z phoe: Kabriel: bind it
2020-11-25T20:34:43Z phoe: `(let ((my-symbol ,...)) ...)
2020-11-25T20:34:50Z phoe: or symbol-macrolet since that is also useful
2020-11-25T20:35:04Z phoe: daphnis: actually
2020-11-25T20:35:14Z phoe: you might want to use qualified package names then
2020-11-25T20:35:29Z phoe: (foo 'a:apples 'b:bananas 'c:cucumbers)
2020-11-25T20:35:45Z phoe: you can use package-local nicknames to make package names bearable and customizable
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2020-11-25T20:45:43Z Kabriel: So here is an example to help explain: https://dpaste.com/HL43LN7VP
2020-11-25T20:46:13Z Kabriel: I have a macro in another package that loops over the lines of the file.
2020-11-25T20:46:41Z Kabriel: I would like to use it in a function in a second package, where I can actually use the symbol "line" defined in the macro.
2020-11-25T20:47:03Z Kabriel: because the packages are different, I have some-package-1::line vs some-package-2::line.
2020-11-25T20:48:00Z Kabriel: Is there an easy way to replace the symbol in the &body, so that the user of the macro does not have to specifiy the symbol.
2020-11-25T20:48:01Z pve: Kabriel: you should import the symbol LINE
2020-11-25T20:48:32Z Kabriel: That would be one way.
2020-11-25T20:48:35Z pve: or better yet, let the user choose the the name
2020-11-25T20:48:41Z Kabriel: And another.
2020-11-25T20:48:51Z iarebatman: Any ECL people on that can help me out?  Whenever I try to load cffi on ECL (on windows..sorry....) - I get an error because cffi/toolchain/c-toolchain.lisp is trying to access C:*CC* - which doesn't appear to be set to anything by default in my ECL session
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2020-11-25T20:51:45Z daphnis: pve: yeah, sorry, i meant: it can be exported, but it won't function the same way in B as in A.
2020-11-25T20:51:55Z iarebatman: I just managed to compile ecl 20.4.24 x64 via msvc compiler as specified in the docs finally. I tried switching to :C and (setf *CC* "gcc") for example, but that doesn't seem to matter.
2020-11-25T20:52:00Z Kabriel: There must be some way to do it, because loop can figure out what some-package-1:for is.
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2020-11-25T20:53:18Z daphnis: since i only use the symbols as names, i don't want to have to specify their package.  maybe keywords are the answer to this, as Bike suggested
2020-11-25T20:54:44Z Bike: LOOP looks at the symbol names
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2020-11-25T21:00:23Z Kabriel: Bike: so basically, have to walk all the forms in the restvar list and replace.
2020-11-25T21:01:09Z Bike: it's just that when the loop macro does its parsing, it looks for loop syntax based on symbol names rather than comparison with a symbol.
2020-11-25T21:01:24Z Bike: (string= (symbol-name s) "WHEN") rather than (eq s 'when)
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2020-11-25T21:07:46Z Kabriel: That makes sense.
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2020-11-25T21:26:55Z Kabriel: Bike: so I guess the way to do that is to parse the body forms; i.e. there isn't some facility in language to do this easily.
2020-11-25T21:27:05Z Kabriel: Thanks.
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2020-11-25T23:51:55Z Josh_2: just got done with a pretty trivial but very extensible blogging library for hunchentoot https://github.com/K1D77A/cl-bloggy if anyone is interested, i'd appreciate the feedback
2020-11-25T23:52:40Z shinohai: ty Josh_2 will read.
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2020-11-25T23:59:20Z Josh_2: shinohai: awesome
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2020-11-26T02:35:37Z borei: good afternoon/morning !
2020-11-26T02:36:17Z arichiardi[m]: good afternoon to you as well!
2020-11-26T02:36:34Z borei: damn was while ago i visited channel. changed my job, road is pretty bumpy, especially current covid days
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2020-11-26T02:39:01Z borei: i have question - what is the "proper way" to run lisp application. Currently im using ASDF to load modules my app depends on, but is there another way ?
2020-11-26T02:40:18Z White_Flame: quicklisp extends asdf to download dependencies if you don't have them, too
2020-11-26T02:40:47Z White_Flame: as far as actually invoking, either repl or load everything up and create an exectuable
2020-11-26T02:40:57Z White_Flame: *either run from the repl, or...
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2020-11-26T02:50:32Z borei: ic,
2020-11-26T02:50:54Z borei: seems like im on the write direction.
2020-11-26T02:50:57Z borei: tks.
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2020-11-26T03:40:55Z johnjay: does anybody know about using Nyxt on windows?
2020-11-26T03:41:09Z johnjay: i tried to get it compiled in debian WSL but it said sbcl 1.5 required
2020-11-26T03:41:38Z johnjay: oh wait the upgrade actually worked. now i have sbcl 2.0
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2020-11-26T04:07:39Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-26T04:18:47Z bqv: Hi.
2020-11-26T04:19:21Z bqv: Whats the equivalent of sb-alien::*shared-objects* on ccl?
2020-11-26T04:22:53Z bqv: Context: would like to port this https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/8585991bfb629edda1e42c191bef935d9d70d690/pkgs/development/lisp-modules/clwrapper/cl-wrapper.sh#L107
2020-11-26T04:26:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: bqv: I wonder if CFFI has the bits you need
2020-11-26T04:27:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: It looks like, if CFFI is loaded, that might just work? https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/8585991bfb629edda1e42c191bef935d9d70d690/pkgs/development/lisp-modules/clwrapper/cl-wrapper.sh#L102-L103
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2020-11-26T04:28:11Z bqv: Ah, hm. Maybe it's just not pulling through then... can I safely remove the #+cffi to test?
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2020-11-26T04:30:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Only if you're confident that CFFI is loaded
2020-11-26T04:30:54Z bqv: That's what I'd like to test, I'm not sure
2020-11-26T04:31:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/8585991bfb629edda1e42c191bef935d9d70d690/pkgs/development/lisp-modules/clwrapper/build-with-lisp.sh
2020-11-26T04:31:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Looking here, it looks like they support sbcl/ecl/clisp, maybe just add a case here for ccl?
2020-11-26T04:33:30Z bqv: What would the entry there contain? ccl is already supported, per my vague understanding, and I get packages to build
2020-11-26T04:33:41Z bqv: Just, there's some dead pointers
2020-11-26T04:34:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I think that's right, this looks like ccl: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/blob/8585991bfb629edda1e42c191bef935d9d70d690/pkgs/development/lisp-modules/clwrapper/setup-hook.sh#L18-L19
2020-11-26T04:35:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think you might try making sure that cffi is always loaded, and that code might cleanup the shared libraries
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2020-11-26T04:36:44Z bqv: Alright
2020-11-26T04:37:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: Otherwise, look here: https://ccl.clozure.com/docs/ccl.html#the-foreign-function-interface
2020-11-26T04:37:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've personally found that nix/lisp isn't a great fit
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2020-11-26T04:39:01Z bqv: Oh no, the infrastructure is shocking I know. But I use nixos so I gotta do something
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2020-11-26T05:44:25Z bqv: Still no dice. Not sure what's wrong. Don't quite understand how this works well enough to debug
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2020-11-26T07:09:29Z phoe: good morning
2020-11-26T07:13:58Z no-defun-allowed: Hey phoe.
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2020-11-26T08:19:05Z beach: Hey phoe.  All set for this afternoon?
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2020-11-26T08:22:56Z phoe: my schedule is kinda f#<...>d up after these few days and I still need to record the talk
2020-11-26T08:22:59Z phoe: so, mostly set
2020-11-26T08:23:06Z phoe: I'll be done on time though
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2020-11-26T08:34:20Z beach: I am sure you will.  Sorry to hear about your complicated schedule.  I hope you recover soon.
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2020-11-26T08:45:54Z phoe: thanks
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2020-11-26T08:46:12Z phoe: I hope to be 100% back on my tracks next week
2020-11-26T08:46:29Z phoe: lots of overall stress, both related to Lisp and non-Lisp things
2020-11-26T08:46:39Z phoe: but it's over! time to do a Lisp meeting.
2020-11-26T08:46:47Z phoe: and, forgive the pun, unwind a bit
2020-11-26T08:47:49Z phantomics: Are you recording a presentation beach is doing?
2020-11-26T08:47:57Z beach: Heh!
2020-11-26T08:48:18Z beach: phantomics: No, this time it is phoe's presentation.
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2020-11-26T08:48:38Z phoe: phantomics: I need to record my own talk for today
2020-11-26T08:48:53Z phantomics: Be interested to see those when they're up
2020-11-26T08:49:17Z phoe: phantomics: it'll be live today during today's Online Lisp Meeting
2020-11-26T08:49:21Z phoe: which starts in about 3 hours from now
2020-11-26T08:49:31Z phoe: and then it'll end up on YouTube
2020-11-26T08:49:43Z phantomics: I'll be asleep, catch it on YT
2020-11-26T08:50:17Z phoe: okay!
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2020-11-26T09:00:45Z ck_: phoe: so 13:00 CET? I thought I'd read 12 before.  Anyway, can these be put onto the meetup schedule on planet.lisp in the future?
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2020-11-26T09:02:48Z phoe: ck_: that is for Xach to implement
2020-11-26T09:03:08Z phoe: ck_: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/online-lisp-meets/2020-November/000046.html
2020-11-26T09:03:14Z phoe: 13:00 CET
2020-11-26T09:03:31Z ck_: thanks
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2020-11-26T10:31:35Z phoe: OK, video recorded; all is good now
2020-11-26T10:33:20Z easye: phoe: talk is how long?  (trying to time cooking and family Zoom stuff between the Talk and the Hangout)
2020-11-26T10:34:37Z phoe: easye: 55 minutes
2020-11-26T10:34:46Z easye nods.  "Thanks."
2020-11-26T10:42:21Z mfiano: Hmm, is there a way to #'fill an adjustable vector which has a fill pointer less that array-total-size with NIL's efficiently (which a compiler could just memcpy or something)?
2020-11-26T10:42:33Z mfiano: s/that/than/
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2020-11-26T10:45:19Z beach: What's wrong with FILL?
2020-11-26T10:45:46Z mfiano: On SBCL it honors the fill pointer. My use-case is to free references to objects beyond the fill pointer
2020-11-26T10:46:21Z beach: You could move the fill pointer, then FILL, then move it again.
2020-11-26T10:46:37Z beach: Moving the fill pointer is not likely to be a costly operation.
2020-11-26T10:47:01Z phoe: I wonder if you can use some operator that accepts array-total-size
2020-11-26T10:47:03Z mfiano: Yeah that's what I'm doing. Just wanted to be sure there wasn't a better way (this is in a very tight loop)
2020-11-26T10:47:16Z phoe: AFAIR it disrespects fill pointers
2020-11-26T10:48:13Z phoe: like, (nsubstitute-if nil (constantly t) vector :count (array-total-size vector))
2020-11-26T10:48:17Z no-defun-allowed: Would it accept an :end that is the actual size of the vector?
2020-11-26T10:48:19Z beach: mfiano: In a tight loop, you still have to assign to every element, so unless you have very few elements, moving the fill pointer is not going to make a difference.
2020-11-26T10:48:48Z mfiano: Thank you for the input :)
2020-11-26T10:49:08Z no-defun-allowed: The answer to that is "no, it will not".
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2020-11-26T11:00:22Z _death: you could keep a displaced array and fill that, though I'm not sure that would be fast
2020-11-26T11:01:18Z mfiano: Yeah at the very least bounds checking would occur for both
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2020-11-26T11:02:55Z mfiano: Most compilers struggle to optimize displaced array access in my experience. I didn't dig too deeply though
2020-11-26T11:04:40Z _death: also, an array with a fill pointer is not a simple-array, so may make a difference
2020-11-26T11:05:41Z phoe: my heap implementation in damn fast priority queue emulates a fill pointer via an ub32 + simple array
2020-11-26T11:08:02Z jackdaniel: does it work with most-positive-bignum ?
2020-11-26T11:09:03Z no-defun-allowed: You have a simple array that large?
2020-11-26T11:09:27Z jackdaniel: yes, it has exactly most-positive-bignum elements
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2020-11-26T11:13:45Z phoe: I only used arrays that have least-positive-bignum elements
2020-11-26T11:14:14Z jackdaniel: actually, that one could be easily defined as (1+ most-positive-fixnum)
2020-11-26T11:15:05Z jackdaniel: and given that you use ub32, that could not work (because on 64 bit implementation it will probably have 61 bits)
2020-11-26T11:15:13Z jackdaniel: most-positive-fixnum that is
2020-11-26T11:15:36Z _death: can always get more nums by using zilnums
2020-11-26T11:17:08Z jackdaniel: zil what? - asked Pigleet; - zilnums - answered Winnie
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2020-11-26T11:27:48Z phoe: (make-zilnum) ;=> #.ZIL
2020-11-26T11:29:58Z no-defun-allowed: The CL numeric tower needs to support numbers written in up-arrow notation, so I can write (make-array (↑↑↑↑ 3 3))
2020-11-26T11:30:04Z aeth: most-positive-bignum is old news. My favorite constants are integer encodings of various mathematical proofs. In particular, the Riemann hypothesis, the P vs NP problem, or any other Millennium Prize problem. If anyone can find these constants, please share here first.
2020-11-26T11:30:44Z aeth: Good thing we have bignums. I doubt any of these proofs could be encoded in a way that fits in a fixnum unless you wrote a very specific compression algorithm.
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2020-11-26T11:35:01Z phoe: aeth: I did that
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2020-11-26T11:35:08Z phoe: the P vs NP problem has an encoding of 42
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2020-11-26T11:35:21Z phoe: the only issue is finding the encoding algorithm; I'm still working on this.
2020-11-26T11:35:30Z phoe: s/encoding/decoding/
2020-11-26T11:35:30Z aeth: phoe: Yes. The problem is that it's only useful with the algorithm.
2020-11-26T11:35:39Z phoe: yes
2020-11-26T11:36:35Z aeth: To be fair, I did not specify a restriction to unsolved Millennium Prize problems and one has been solved, so in theory, the (uncompressed) bignum exists.
2020-11-26T11:36:54Z aeth: However, putting an entire document in a bignum probably makes it a... big num.
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2020-11-26T11:37:51Z phoe: it's in the name y'know
2020-11-26T11:37:56Z phoe: anyway!
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2020-11-26T11:38:07Z phoe: we're starting the Online Lisp Meeting in 22 minutes from now
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2020-11-26T11:46:46Z phoe: OLM #11 starting in 15 minutes - https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp
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2020-11-26T11:52:22Z phoe: you can comment on #lispcafe as well, we have a Freenode <-> Twitch bridge set up!
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2020-11-26T13:38:26Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4P9lFK79hQ Control Flow in Common Lisp - Online Lisp Meeting #11, 26.11.2020
2020-11-26T13:38:58Z Josh_2: Good talk phoe
2020-11-26T13:39:02Z phoe: thanks!
2020-11-26T13:39:07Z phoe: glad that it wasn't too basic
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2020-11-26T13:41:05Z ghard: Cool! I just got the book 2 days ago. Can't wait to have some quiet moments for it.
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2020-11-26T13:41:40Z Josh_2: I've had the book a few weeks now, that talk convinced me to take some time to read it
2020-11-26T13:41:47Z phoe: :D
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2020-11-26T13:44:55Z ghard: phoe: Since you do Erlang, have you tried LFE?
2020-11-26T13:45:27Z ghard: Been scratching its surface a bit.
2020-11-26T13:45:48Z aeth: quick, someone do the opposite, and implement Erlang in SBCL
2020-11-26T13:46:55Z phoe: aeth: is CCL okay? https://github.com/eugeneia/erlangen
2020-11-26T13:47:11Z ghard: aeth: Optima with cl-actors could cover a good slice of the reasons.
2020-11-26T13:47:15Z no-defun-allowed: Why does it need unportable code?
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2020-11-26T13:47:18Z phoe: ghard: I have, and I enjoyed it. I attempted writing a swank server in it once but didn't really finish it since it wasn't important enough to me at the time.
2020-11-26T13:47:33Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: no idea; you can try to portabilize it
2020-11-26T13:47:52Z ghard: Plus there is a library that makes CL look like an Erlang node
2020-11-26T13:48:02Z ghard: So can pass msgs
2020-11-26T13:48:02Z Josh_2: there is also cl-muproc for erlang
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2020-11-26T13:48:34Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: it's the kind of thing that's hard to make portable, just because the portability libraries are probably insufficient (you just have bordeaux-threads, really)
2020-11-26T13:48:41Z no-defun-allowed: I also have a thread supervision library. If you give each job a mailbox, you would have actors.
2020-11-26T13:48:43Z aeth: hard != impossible
2020-11-26T13:48:52Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: You have safe-queue for mailboxes.
2020-11-26T13:49:14Z no-defun-allowed: What is an actor, if not a thread with a mailbox?
2020-11-26T13:49:31Z phoe: ghard: CLERIC, yes
2020-11-26T13:49:42Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: it's the thread part that might be insufficiently portable, if you need to get really low level
2020-11-26T13:49:54Z ghard: There's still the 233 word process size and spawn speed that's pretty hard to match
2020-11-26T13:50:13Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: but maybe it's feasible; you probably know more than I do about that part of the ecosystem
2020-11-26T13:50:16Z ghard: But I've seen some use cases where I'd like to have both.
2020-11-26T13:50:39Z ghard: CL wrangling Erlang processes
2020-11-26T13:51:02Z phoe: ghard: this is my idea for the swank server
2020-11-26T13:51:16Z phoe: you could perhaps connect to LFE via slime or via swank-crew
2020-11-26T13:51:28Z phoe: though an alternative already exists if you connect to the erlang network via cleric
2020-11-26T13:51:30Z ghard: I'd very much love to have swank on LFE!
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2020-11-26T14:16:37Z phoe: well then, write it :D
2020-11-26T14:16:46Z phoe: the protocol is not very hard.
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2020-11-26T15:42:40Z jeosol: phoe: nice talk. I tried to stay up to catch it but very early for me. Just watching the playback.
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2020-11-26T15:48:32Z jeosol: phoe: incidentally, I am running some long optimization codes (9 separate runs) that takes weeks to complete. I didn't quite add protection code and forgot to disable plotting option. Every now and then, there is a gnuplot related error and I go into the debugger with an option to continue.
2020-11-26T15:50:30Z jeosol: phoe:  I'd sort the bug later and look into error handling instead of using 'top i' to see if there are less than 9 sbcl showing up
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2020-11-26T15:52:30Z phoe: hahah
2020-11-26T15:52:44Z phoe: nice
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2020-11-26T16:01:00Z jeosol: phoe: it's a manageable option, i would lose weeks of compute and it's the second trial due to power issues.
2020-11-26T16:01:39Z jeosol: phoe: Thanks for making this available and all the others involved. I'd try to catch this live another time for the discussions and hangout.
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2020-11-26T16:29:15Z hhdave: Does anyone here know where the library cybertiggyr-time was ever available? I can't remember where I found it. It seems quite useful. I've uploaded it to https://github.com/Virtual-Insurance-Products/cybertiggyr-time when it was pointed out that it's not generally available. I can't find much reference to it on the internet
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2020-11-26T16:31:15Z Josh_2: still hiring lisp programmers hhdave?
2020-11-26T16:31:27Z hhdave: Yes
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2020-11-26T16:31:53Z Josh_2: remote?
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2020-11-26T16:32:33Z hhdave: yes
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2020-11-26T16:37:26Z Xach: hhdave: i might have a link somewhere
2020-11-26T16:38:01Z Xach digs
2020-11-26T16:38:14Z byallahyourpfpgi everyone else watches
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2020-11-26T16:40:25Z Xach: hhdave: http://www.paoloamoroso.it/log/060101.html is the only reference i can find at the moment
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2020-11-26T16:42:59Z Xach: hmm, http://cybertiggyr.com might have something too
2020-11-26T16:45:18Z hhdave: Xach - I couldn't find it on that website. It doesn't really matter, as I have it. I was just curious as to whether there was still an 'official' source for it.
2020-11-26T16:46:03Z _death: indeed, http://web.archive.org/web/20100211230739/http://cybertiggyr.com/gene/pdl/
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2020-11-26T16:47:13Z hhdave: _death - ah, well done!
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2020-11-26T16:50:24Z Xach: This brings back some memories. I always found the short articles as full PDFs with TOCs in latex alien and inaccessible
2020-11-26T16:50:55Z Xach: Too formal for my brain back then
2020-11-26T16:52:57Z _death: I remember reading cybertiggyr & steve yegge stuff at work heh
2020-11-26T16:55:08Z _death: when lispbox & clisp were all the rage
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2020-11-26T17:42:24Z hhdave: phoe? I've finally got the vacancy details up on our company website: https://jacksonleeunderwriting.co.uk/about-us/job-vacancies/. I changed the link on our https://github.com/Virtual-Insurance-Products page to the jacksonleeunderwriting.co.uk page, which is our main trading brand.
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2020-11-26T17:42:47Z hhdave: Xach - are you able to put this on planet lisp please?
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2020-11-26T17:43:55Z Xach: hhdave: sure
2020-11-26T17:44:06Z hhdave: Thank you :)
2020-11-26T17:46:05Z Xach: it'll percolate out in a bit
2020-11-26T17:50:42Z clicat: Does anyone have a remote lisp image connected with a swank server, e.g. a web app? I have a web server with a setup very similar to https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/debugging.html#remote-debugging, which works fine except that when I break the client connection abruptly (loss of connectivity), swank won't let me connect again (it's actually sly + slynk). I get "Lisp connection closed unexpectedly:
2020-11-26T17:50:48Z clicat: connection broken by remote peer" when M-x sly-connect, and I see "channel 5: open failed: connect failed: Connection refused" be output on my remote shell. This is annoying because I need to restart the server to solve the issue, and it usually results in exactly a minute of downtime (probably some TCP socket timeout)
2020-11-26T17:53:17Z Josh_2: I do and I've never had this problem
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2020-11-26T18:00:28Z clicat: Josh_2: with sly and slynk?
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2020-11-26T18:17:42Z clicat: Hmm the way I run my code isn't actually very standard... bash -c 'sbcl --load run.lisp < <(while true; do sleep infinity; done)'
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2020-11-26T18:18:23Z clicat: I did this because "sbcl --load run.lisp" immediately exits with my code, that I should now provide
2020-11-26T18:19:51Z clicat: https://pastebin.com/BCcuGiUz
2020-11-26T18:20:20Z Josh_2: huh
2020-11-26T18:21:17Z Josh_2: Did you try saving your lisp image and executing that instead?
2020-11-26T18:21:48Z Josh_2: here https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/scripting.html#building-a-self-contained-executable
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2020-11-26T18:23:29Z clicat: No I'll try it, is that how you do it?
2020-11-26T18:23:46Z Josh_2: Yep
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2020-11-26T18:26:18Z Josh_2: It feels a little convoluted at first but It's easy enough. Basically when you save the image you want to specify a function that is executed when the saved image is executed, in here you have all your image setup functions, including starting your SWANK server. There is also a keyword so that when the image is done executing your setup function it will go to the top level repl instead of exiting automatically
2020-11-26T18:27:04Z Josh_2: thats with sbcls save-lisp-and-die, but there are quite a few libraries to aid with deploying your lisp app
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2020-11-26T18:46:03Z _death: there's also detachtty...
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2020-11-26T18:49:11Z clicat: Josh_2: what's the keyword argument to go be dropped in the REPL instead of exiting? I'm following the code of the cookbook but I'm not dropped in the REPL, the executable runs and exits.
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2020-11-26T19:02:01Z Josh_2: :executable t  I believe
2020-11-26T19:03:52Z wayneese1: What happened to quickdocs / why was it recently shut down?
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2020-11-26T19:06:01Z mfiano: Because it was outdated
2020-11-26T19:06:24Z mfiano: Having documentation that is months old is arguably worse than none at all.
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2020-11-26T19:06:41Z mfiano: and the author doesn't have time to make the needed server changes to get it to update
2020-11-26T19:07:06Z wayneeseguin: Gotcha
2020-11-26T19:07:08Z clicat: Josh_2: I do use that... Otherwise I have the same code as before. I'm following exactly the build target given at the end of the "With SBCL" section. Maybe I should do something like in the "For web apps" section? I don't understand why we have to find the web server thread...
2020-11-26T19:07:18Z wayneeseguin: So it wasn't say 'auto-generated' but manually curated?
2020-11-26T19:07:55Z mfiano: It was auto-generated, but there were changes in Quicklisp or something that required a decent portion to be rewritten or something.
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2020-11-26T19:08:50Z mfiano: But it was pretty bad anyway, since it did not recognize #'(setf documentation) and just parsed strings
2020-11-26T19:08:59Z mfiano: A lot of libraries were therefor not documented properly
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2020-11-26T19:11:27Z Josh_2: clicat: what do you mean you have to find the server thread?
2020-11-26T19:12:18Z Josh_2: clicat: also yes that was the wrong argument, in my setup function I have  (sb-impl::toplevel-init) as the last function call
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2020-11-26T19:15:42Z clicat: Josh_2: in the "For web apps" section, the cookbook says "We have one thing to take care of, it is to find and put the thread of the running web server on the foreground."
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2020-11-26T19:22:23Z wayneeseguin: mfiano: Noted, thanks.
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2020-11-26T19:23:54Z Josh_2: clicat: to save the lisp image?
2020-11-26T19:24:54Z phoe: hhdave: OK. What kind of support do you need with it?
2020-11-26T19:25:09Z phoe: if Xach already posted this on planetlisp, then Reddit might perhaps want to see it
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2020-11-26T19:31:06Z Josh_2: phoe: where can I find a doctor that will give appointments over counter strike? xD
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2020-11-26T19:32:53Z phoe: Josh_2: wherever counter strike is popular
2020-11-26T19:33:49Z phoe: if I understand the CSGO popularity-by-country trends correctly, then you can find such doctors in Russia, where, by definition, everything is possible
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2020-11-26T19:39:30Z wayneeseguin: phoe: I just bought a copy of your new book :D Looking forward to reading it.
2020-11-26T19:40:01Z phoe: <3
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2020-11-26T19:55:26Z iarebatman: hhdave: I actually read your reddit post the other day - I didn't realize you hung out in here.  Do you know if your company would be willing to hire a remote employee from the U.S. ?
2020-11-26T19:56:32Z Xach: And when will that db work on sbcl
2020-11-26T19:56:53Z phoe: Xach: likely an issue of using a portable mmap
2020-11-26T19:57:12Z phoe: I saw the discussion on reddit related to it
2020-11-26T19:57:13Z Xach: Likely schmikely
2020-11-26T19:57:17Z phoe: :(
2020-11-26T19:58:05Z wayneeseguin: Does anyone know of an excellent tutorial of getting started with emacs + sly + sbcl? I've been a vim user for ::cough:: a long time and want to learn the full "immersive" experience for CL
2020-11-26T19:58:50Z phoe: wayneeseguin: I'd cheat if I were you
2020-11-26T19:58:54Z phoe: have you considered spacemacs?
2020-11-26T19:58:56Z iarebatman: wayneeseguin: I was in the same boat a bit ago.. I ended up using spacemacs
2020-11-26T19:59:01Z phoe: haha
2020-11-26T19:59:03Z wayneeseguin: :D
2020-11-26T19:59:13Z wayneeseguin: spacemacs vs doom thoughts?
2020-11-26T19:59:24Z phoe: never used doom, satisfied with spacemacs
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2020-11-26T20:00:22Z wayneeseguin: I'll give spacemacs a go then :)
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2020-11-26T20:05:19Z iarebatman: wayneeseguin: I mean it's not "perfect" exactly, but I've been using it for more and more as I work more things into my workflow(s). I use the hell out of Org mode for working on my book, creating presentations, and giving common lisp demos for work that I can run via Org Mode Source Blocks.. The "spreadsheet" capabilities are very cool, and I even got column/cell formulas to invoke CL functions.. but I haven't had much use
2020-11-26T20:05:19Z iarebatman: that myself.
2020-11-26T20:07:07Z iarebatman: I use it for my sql server work, I use it for time tracking/TODOs/etc.., and I use TRAMP to update my gemini site hosted on a remote VM.
2020-11-26T20:08:38Z iarebatman: all in all - very powerful. coming from vim originally, it takes some mind-bending.. but being able to do all of that from one place feels very gratifying..
2020-11-26T20:09:43Z iarebatman: wayneeseguin: by the way - if you go with spacemacs, you may have better luck with their develop branch than their latest release.
2020-11-26T20:13:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not a spacemacs person
2020-11-26T20:14:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: evil-mode is nearly good enough by itself, and spacemacs always felt too heavyweight
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2020-11-26T20:16:49Z iarebatman: I definitely agree with spacemacs feeling heavy.  haven't figured out the best way to deal with that yet besides delving deep into configuration-hell.. just not ready for that yet =)
2020-11-26T20:18:04Z iarebatman: I ended up with the common approach of running emacs as a daemon in the background at all times, that way when I open 'emacsclient' - it's much quicker.
2020-11-26T20:21:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, coming from vim, I just recreated my vim configuration from scratch
2020-11-26T20:21:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: use-package made it mostly ok
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2020-11-26T20:23:30Z wayneeseguin: iarebatman: Yeah, I have vim movement ingrained in my "finger-memory" and don't think before slicing up text so the 'mind bending' is steep for me :D
2020-11-26T20:23:43Z wayneeseguin: What's the difference with their develop branch?
2020-11-26T20:24:50Z iarebatman: quite a bit.. I'm not sure why they don't cut more frequent releases.. maybe they are trying to reach a certain milestone or something
2020-11-26T20:30:25Z wayneeseguin: blasting off...
2020-11-26T20:30:35Z iarebatman: fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah.. my biggest hold-up was not knowing what things were called in emacs.. like I had no idea what helm or ivy was.. so I wanted to use something like spacemacs for a while first to figure out what I liked and didn't like before I decided to dive in and make a more minimal package selection/config for myself
2020-11-26T20:33:33Z daphnis: is sly uncontroverisally better than slime?
2020-11-26T20:34:08Z wayneeseguin: I have a similar question, my understanding was sly was forked and maintained?
2020-11-26T20:36:48Z Josh_2: I do not know which one is "better" but I personally use sly because I like the features
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2020-11-26T20:46:41Z Xach: I tried to use sly but had a hard time adapting my slime key muscle memory. I'm going to give it another shot.
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2020-11-26T20:48:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've always used SLIME
2020-11-26T20:48:57Z Xach: I think sly is probably better, with nicer features and design. But changing old habits is difficult.
2020-11-26T20:49:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: I even contributed to SLIME relatively recently
2020-11-26T20:49:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: (in the last two years, that is)
2020-11-26T20:52:07Z mfiano: There is a new feature of Sly that I really like
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2020-11-26T20:53:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: ...
2020-11-26T20:53:51Z mfiano: (slynk-mrepl:copy-to-repl-in-emacs (list 'foo 42) :blurb "Sent from my game") =>
2020-11-26T20:53:54Z mfiano: ; Sent from my game
2020-11-26T20:53:55Z mfiano: 42 (6 bits, #x2A, #o52, #b101010)
2020-11-26T20:53:57Z mfiano: FOO
2020-11-26T20:54:05Z mfiano: inspectable objects sent back to repl from runtime :)
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2020-11-26T20:54:25Z mfiano: I use it for 3 dimensional geometry picking with the mouse in a scene
2020-11-26T20:56:12Z mfiano: screwed up list order of input. that is actually deterministic/unreversed :)
2020-11-26T20:58:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs inspect
2020-11-26T20:58:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_inspec.htm
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2020-11-26T20:58:32Z mfiano: What about it?
2020-11-26T20:58:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was just looking at the specification for it
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2020-11-26T21:00:50Z mfiano: You often times don't want to just inspect some object located deep inside some internal game state that is otherwise unreachable from the APIs, but to also perform arbitrary operations on it in the REPL. Ray casting an sending back the object denotes by the geometry that the ray intersects with is a useful way to do this easily.
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2020-11-26T21:01:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I often defvar then setf/push
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2020-11-26T22:19:32Z lotuseater: how can I use special versions of arithmetic operators eg in (defun square (n) (* n n)) for integers. a DISASSEMBLE shows her GENERIC-*
2020-11-26T22:20:44Z lonjil: The compiler needs to somehow know that that function is only going to get data of a certain type.
2020-11-26T22:21:02Z lotuseater: yes with DECLARE for example
2020-11-26T22:24:25Z lonjil: lotuseater: yes, and CHECK-TYPE should work in a lot of cases. This is all very implementation-specific though, so I can't give much general advice.
2020-11-26T22:25:24Z lotuseater: SBCL. is CHECK-TYPE compile or runtime specific?
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2020-11-26T22:25:56Z lotuseater: oh now it works without GENERIC-*
2020-11-26T22:26:24Z lotuseater: I forgot the variable in (DECLARE (TYPE ...)) o_O
2020-11-26T22:27:20Z lotuseater: it's good we have arbitrary precision integers
2020-11-26T22:28:01Z lonjil: Runtime. It will check a type and if it doesn't match it will error. This means that anything after the CHECK-TYPE, must have that type. So it isn't like when you do (declare (type ..)), where you promise that a variable will have a value of a certain type, which is technically speaking undefined behaviour if you violate the promise. In practice most CL compilers will insert type checks unless you do (safety 0), though.
2020-11-26T22:28:53Z lotuseater: hehe yes
2020-11-26T22:29:08Z lotuseater: safety is important
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2020-11-26T22:44:07Z nij: Hello! I'm using sbcl and quicklisp, and have successfully loaded a package called `cl-permutation`.
2020-11-26T22:44:25Z nij: Right now, whenever I need to call a function in that package, I need to type
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2020-11-26T22:44:39Z nij: > (cl-permutation:func1 var1 var2 ..)
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2020-11-26T22:44:57Z nij: But the package has a long name.. is there anyway that I can get rid of that need, and type instead
2020-11-26T22:45:04Z nij: > (func1 var1 var2 ..)?
2020-11-26T22:47:16Z Josh_2: you can import the functions you want when you use (defpackage .. )
2020-11-26T22:47:37Z Josh_2: You could also use (import ..)
2020-11-26T22:48:40Z lotuseater: and (in-package :clpermutation)
2020-11-26T22:49:07Z no-defun-allowed: You probably shouldn't use IN-PACKAGE, lest you define some function or variable and clobber CL-PERMUTATION somehow.
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2020-11-26T22:51:03Z lotuseater: yes of course you're right no-defun-allowed :) but in the REPL for experimenting it would be enough for first
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2020-11-26T22:55:54Z Alfr: nij, there's also package-local-nicknames (in some implementations), if you only want a shorter name for it.
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2020-11-26T22:57:25Z White_Flame: nij: if you're in CL-USER and doing things interactively, (use-package :cl-permutation) and that will make all the exported symbols from that visible in your current package.
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2020-11-26T22:58:14Z White_Flame: if you're writing code "for real" in files, then yeah you want your own defpackage which can import, use, or local-nickname the package as a proper dependency
2020-11-26T22:59:05Z White_Flame: modern style really does promote using the package:symbol naming to avoid collisions, and the nicknames allow making it very short, say (perm:foo ...) if you want
2020-11-26T22:59:45Z White_Flame: but :use (which would allow you to just simply call (foo ...) from that used package) is still common
2020-11-26T23:03:32Z nij: Oh thank you! Many options :) I will look into them. Thank you!
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2020-11-26T23:03:41Z edgar-rft: Emacs has tab-completion for long symbol names...
2020-11-26T23:04:01Z edgar-rft: cl-per<tab>
2020-11-26T23:04:06Z White_Flame: oh right, yeah.  and it also tab-completes the package name, too
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2020-11-27T01:55:07Z sukaeto: re: the "switching from vim to Emacs" - I switched to Emacs ~5 years ago after using vim for ~15 years.  I just started with vanilla Emacs, installed evil, evil-org, and evil-collections.  That was enough to get started, IME
2020-11-27T01:55:36Z sukaeto: I found both spacemacs and Doom to be too opinionated when I looked into them
2020-11-27T01:57:21Z sukaeto: I also feel as though Doom's attempts to make configuring Emacs easier rather make it more difficult
2020-11-27T01:59:10Z moon-child: it seems to me that doom was an attempt to construct a traditional IDE using emacs as a base.  Emacs is no less capable of being an ide than anything else, but it somewhat misses the point of emacs; and if you're not going to spend the time to make emacs what you want, then there's not much point in such a tool
2020-11-27T01:59:16Z moon-child: however, it can still act as a 'gateway drug' of sorts
2020-11-27T02:02:03Z astronavt: the main thing i never liked about emacs is how the underlying functions were somewhat "hard coded", whereas in vim the convention is to have an "operator" that operates on a chunk of text and a subsequent "motion" that selects the text to be operated on
2020-11-27T02:04:15Z astronavt: as for lisp support specifically, ive recently started using Vlime and its pretty decent
2020-11-27T02:05:02Z astronavt: the vim plugin side of things is pretty conventional vim, and it comes with its own bundled swank server which i think is nice
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2020-11-27T02:17:56Z astronavt: is it considered bad form to post my lisp question on stackoverflow in this channel?
2020-11-27T02:18:11Z astronavt: not sure how much overlap there is between "people who read the [lisp] tag on SO and people who read #lisp on freenode"
2020-11-27T02:29:14Z save-lisp-or-die: Are there any guix users here who might shed some light on why cffi can't find lisdl2 via (ql:quickload :sdl2) ? In other distros cffi looks in a sane spot, but that spot doesn't seem to be sane by guix's standards.
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2020-11-27T02:29:22Z save-lisp-or-die: libsdl2*
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2020-11-27T02:32:15Z lotuseater: save-lisp-or-die: I sometimes had same with NixOS
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2020-11-27T02:33:34Z lotuseater: I look with fuzzy-find where the .so files are and push the path to cffi:*foreign-library-directories"
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2020-11-27T02:36:20Z save-lisp-or-die: yeah I tried to cd into /gnu/store/...../profile/lib/   and running sbcl from that directory (cffi looks in the directory where sbcl is started), but that didn't seem to work either. It could have picked the wrong guix profile though. I'll keep at it. Your advice is more or less what I thought I'd have to resort to, but I wondered if there was some
2020-11-27T02:36:20Z save-lisp-or-die: other way.
2020-11-27T02:36:21Z lotuseater: or for example McCLIM didn't find the *truetype-font-path*
2020-11-27T02:36:46Z lotuseater: hm no that's not so good practice
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2020-11-27T02:37:38Z lotuseater: edit your .sbclrc with (pushnew #p"/gnu/store/rest/of/your/path" cffi:*foreign-library-directories*)
2020-11-27T02:38:19Z lotuseater: OR clone the source to local-projects and add the path there directly
2020-11-27T02:39:12Z save-lisp-or-die: I'll give it a shot. I have a feeling that the guix profile I'm using has to match the guix profile where the shared libraries are. I might have to write a script to update the .sbclrc whenever I change profiles.
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2020-11-27T03:00:43Z sukaeto: astronavt: that's the thing about evil-mode - it brings vi (the language - what you described as operators and motions) to Emacs
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2020-11-27T04:05:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-11-27T04:09:27Z phantomics: Morning beach
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2020-11-27T07:35:37Z phoe: morning
2020-11-27T07:35:59Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe.
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2020-11-27T07:38:35Z beach: Hello phoe.
2020-11-27T07:41:41Z phoe: hey hi
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2020-11-27T09:14:39Z hhdave: Hi phoe. I just saw your message from yesterday evening (I was afk). I guess posting the job ad page on the lisp reddit would be a good idea, do you think?
2020-11-27T09:16:28Z easye: hhdave: I don't see how you lose by posting to Reddit.
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2020-11-27T09:17:22Z easye: A one-time, respectful post linking to your "recruitment pipeline" would be perfectly ok.
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2020-11-27T09:18:18Z frodef: 'morn..
2020-11-27T09:18:44Z easye: There used to be a "Common Lisp jobs blog" sort of thing, but I don't think that has been active over the last couple years.
2020-11-27T09:20:05Z frodef: (defmaro m1 (v1) `(marolet ((m2 (v2) `(form v1 ,v2))))) How do I get v2 into my form?
2020-11-27T09:20:23Z frodef: I mean v1, of course.
2020-11-27T09:20:42Z easye: When you post to Reddit, invariably you will get a couple of the Twitter Lisperati to tweet the link.
2020-11-27T09:23:13Z hhdave: ok, cool - I'll do that.
2020-11-27T09:24:27Z easye: You might get a little slagging about aspects of the post and your company.  For instance, Ravenpack's recent job offering was criticized for not posting a salary range.
2020-11-27T09:25:01Z easye: But have a thick skin, and let it ride.  Those of us looking for Common Lisp jobs will appreciate it.
2020-11-27T09:25:57Z no-defun-allowed: frodef: I usually use ,',v1
2020-11-27T09:26:47Z no-defun-allowed: On a bad day, I call ,', the "The Bird" operator, because nested quasiquotation is that tedious.
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2020-11-27T09:28:51Z frodef: no-defun-allowed: thanks! I thought I'd tried that, but I guess my brain just bottomed out.
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2020-11-27T09:32:50Z hhdave: Thanks for the tips easye - appreciated.
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2020-11-27T09:40:10Z beach: Hey frodef.  Long time no see.
2020-11-27T09:40:30Z frodef: yes, hi beack!
2020-11-27T09:40:37Z frodef: urgh.. beach!
2020-11-27T09:41:35Z beach: frodef: Are you working on something interesting these days?
2020-11-27T09:41:38Z frodef: beach: how is sicl coming along?
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2020-11-27T09:41:52Z beach: VERY SLOW, but steady progress.
2020-11-27T09:42:03Z frodef: beach: not terribly interesting, I'm afraid.
2020-11-27T09:42:07Z beach: :(
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2020-11-27T09:44:25Z beach: Like I told the #sicl participants, if I were smarter than I am, I would have been able to simplify bootstrapping from the start, but I am what I am, so it is taking me several iterations.  But I think it (i.e. the essence of what I need to do for bootstrapping to be understandable) finally makes sense to me.
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2020-11-27T09:46:46Z beach: frodef: So why are you not doing anything interesting? :)
2020-11-27T09:46:59Z frodef: pulling yourself up by the bootstraps isn't supposed to be easy..
2020-11-27T09:47:20Z beach: It definitely isn't.  Not this version of it anyway.
2020-11-27T09:47:37Z frodef: beach: well, not interesting in terms of parenthetical technology.
2020-11-27T09:48:04Z beach: Yes, that's what I meant.  Otherwise, it would have been off topic. :)
2020-11-27T09:48:20Z frodef: it's more parental technology atm.
2020-11-27T09:48:30Z beach: Ah, yes, I see.
2020-11-27T09:49:34Z frodef: beach: so been a bit chewed up, but hoping/trying to get back into it soonish.
2020-11-27T09:49:51Z beach: That would be great!
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2020-11-27T10:07:43Z flip214: luis: please provide some feedback. I'm adding JSON support to swank (instead of S-expressions).
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2020-11-27T10:08:53Z flip214: First I send an S-expr to switch to JSON; but while that changes a slot in *emacs-connection*, the read loop (in another thread) already restarts DECODE-MESSAGE, so passing the "current" slot of *E-C* in doesn't work.
2020-11-27T10:09:30Z flip214: I can work around that by doing autodetection in READ-MESSAGE - #\( vs. #\[ use the right function.
2020-11-27T10:10:14Z flip214: Would that be okay?
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2020-11-27T10:17:35Z flip214: Or I could define the decoder slot to be a list of decoders that's tried from the end... then I could append the json decoder, and the already-passed in list would become extended in READ-MESSAGE as well
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2020-11-27T10:19:18Z flip214: Or READ-MESSAGE gets a function to call to return the decoder function X(
2020-11-27T10:20:24Z Posterdati: hi
2020-11-27T10:20:42Z Posterdati: please help, how can I check for a task alive in lparallel?
2020-11-27T10:20:45Z Posterdati: Thanks
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2020-11-27T10:21:13Z phoe: task alive? what do you mean?
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2020-11-27T10:21:20Z phoe: you mean if it has already been executed or not?
2020-11-27T10:22:34Z Posterdati: phoe: I did a looping task tha occasionally could exit from loop and thus get executed
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2020-11-27T10:23:08Z phoe: I don't know if lparallel provides an API for this kind of introspection; AFAIK usually you'd do that by trying to receive-result
2020-11-27T10:24:00Z Posterdati: phoe: if the task is still executing, does receive-result blocks the waiting task?
2020-11-27T10:24:44Z phoe: Posterdati: yes, a non-blocking variant is TRY-RECEIVE-RESULT
2020-11-27T10:25:11Z Posterdati: which is nil if the task's executed
2020-11-27T10:25:29Z phoe: actually check the secondary value
2020-11-27T10:25:45Z phoe: it states if there was something to be received or not
2020-11-27T10:26:23Z Posterdati: ok
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2020-11-27T11:17:53Z frodef: With CL-WHO, how can I emit HTML from a generated sexpr? Like (defun make-input (attributes) (w-h-o (s) (:input ,@attributes) ...))  ?
2020-11-27T11:18:28Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think there is a nice way to pass in an s-expression at runtime.
2020-11-27T11:19:29Z frodef: hm. that's silly.
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2020-11-27T11:20:14Z frodef: so CL-WHO is purely a "compiler", then.
2020-11-27T11:21:55Z flip214: frodef: EVAL might help....  but yes, it's a compiler basically, so you'll need to build an (anonymous) function and call it to get the text
2020-11-27T11:22:19Z no-defun-allowed: EVALing it is really really slow; I wouldn't do that.
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2020-11-27T11:22:51Z splittist: slower than the web?
2020-11-27T11:23:24Z Cthulhux: the web is relatively fast if you use a sane web browser
2020-11-27T11:23:31Z Cthulhux: like w3m or emacs
2020-11-27T11:25:35Z no-defun-allowed: The equation looks more like m times slower than n using your server concurrently, where m is your number of threads and n is your number of concurrent users.
2020-11-27T11:26:35Z frodef: My OCD would never agree with EVAL here ;)
2020-11-27T11:28:47Z phoe: macroexpand
2020-11-27T11:28:58Z phoe: but then, huh, again
2020-11-27T11:29:13Z phoe: you'd need a tree of closures approach
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2020-11-27T11:35:47Z no-defun-allowed: I just whipped up a function to emit the HTML myself.
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2020-11-27T11:42:23Z jackdaniel: (print "<html><title>haaa</title></html>" html-stream)
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2020-11-27T12:12:24Z frodef: just outputting some "standalone" html is easy, but like my example defun something that "slots in" with cl-who is perhaps less obvious.
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2020-11-27T12:36:21Z frodef: not so pretty, but it works: (fmt "<input~{ ~(~A~)='~A'~}/>" attributes)
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2020-11-27T12:59:22Z jmercouris: I'm trying to understand some pseudocode on Wikipedia and having a bit of trouble with a particular operator
2020-11-27T12:59:38Z jmercouris: here is the source:
2020-11-27T12:59:38Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/6G9T3TCVL
2020-11-27T12:59:49Z jmercouris: and here is the line: SeedSet S := N \ {P}
2020-11-27T13:00:01Z jmercouris: we are assigning S to N \ {P}
2020-11-27T13:00:06Z jmercouris: what does it mean here to divide???
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2020-11-27T13:00:55Z jmercouris: is it saying that the SeedSet S is the Neighbors of Point P?
2020-11-27T13:01:29Z jmercouris: ah damn, I posted the whole file, sorry about that here is what I meant to post: http://dpaste.com/93B9DWF5A
2020-11-27T13:01:48Z jmercouris: and in this case, the line in question is line 12
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2020-11-27T13:15:35Z random-nick: jmercouris: \ is usually set difference
2020-11-27T13:15:53Z random-nick: so S is N without the element P
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2020-11-27T13:17:14Z jmercouris: AH!
2020-11-27T13:17:18Z jmercouris: that makes a lot of sense
2020-11-27T13:17:36Z jmercouris: so I guess the assumption is the Neighbors would typically include the node itself
2020-11-27T13:17:38Z jmercouris: and it must be removed
2020-11-27T13:17:41Z jmercouris: which is obvious
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2020-11-27T13:18:12Z jmercouris: the difference is that my range-query function already considers this
2020-11-27T13:18:22Z jmercouris: thank you random-nick
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2020-11-27T13:48:25Z pve: frodef: wasn't there some combination of htm, esc and str that made it work cleanly? Maybe I'm remembering it wrong..
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2020-11-27T13:57:36Z frodef: pve: I don
2020-11-27T13:57:40Z frodef: 't think it could.
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2020-11-27T13:59:13Z frodef: the cl-who syntax even prevents evaluation where it expects a html keyword. The one reasonable solution i can see (in terms of extending cl-who) would be a magic attribute keyword that evaluates its argument form and inserts it into html.
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2020-11-27T14:03:08Z pve: frodef: oh, ok then
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2020-11-27T14:28:45Z jmercouris: (loop for item = (pop x) do (print item))
2020-11-27T14:28:52Z jmercouris: this will happily keep popping from nil
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2020-11-27T14:29:04Z jmercouris: should I use a WHEN in my loop or is there a better way?
2020-11-27T14:29:20Z jmercouris: I meant to say WHILE, not when
2020-11-27T14:29:33Z jmercouris: so (loop while x for item = (pop x) do (print item))
2020-11-27T14:31:26Z frodef: Not sure that
2020-11-27T14:31:33Z frodef: 's allowed syntax.
2020-11-27T14:31:53Z frodef: (loop while x do (let ((item (pop x))) (print x))
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2020-11-27T14:32:01Z jmercouris: it is allowed syntax
2020-11-27T14:32:02Z jackdaniel: maybe (map () #'print x) ;?
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2020-11-27T14:32:29Z jmercouris: maybe
2020-11-27T14:32:42Z jmercouris: actually no, it canot be
2020-11-27T14:32:50Z jmercouris: becaus I will keep pushing items to X within the loop body on some conditionals
2020-11-27T14:32:56Z jmercouris: s/becaus/because
2020-11-27T14:33:00Z jmercouris: s/canot/cannot
2020-11-27T14:33:13Z frodef: I do suspect it's syntax error...
2020-11-27T14:33:21Z jmercouris: it definitely isn't
2020-11-27T14:33:36Z jmercouris: (defparameter x (list 0 1 2 3))
2020-11-27T14:33:37Z _death: the loop is fine
2020-11-27T14:33:38Z jmercouris: (loop while x for item = (pop x) do (print item))
2020-11-27T14:34:00Z jmercouris: run it yourself if you do not believe me :-D
2020-11-27T14:34:10Z frodef: jmercouris: how so? Seems to me FOR ... is a variable-clause, while WHILE ... is a main-clause ?
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2020-11-27T14:34:33Z frodef: jmercouris: lucky for you Erik Naggum is not with us ;-)
2020-11-27T14:34:49Z jmercouris: I don't know what a variable clause is, so I can't say
2020-11-27T14:34:56Z jmercouris: nor do I know what I mean clause is either
2020-11-27T14:35:00Z jackdaniel: it is part of loop syntax
2020-11-27T14:35:00Z jmercouris: a main clause*
2020-11-27T14:35:09Z frodef: file:///usr/share/doc/hyperspec/Body/m_loop.htm
2020-11-27T14:35:10Z jackdaniel: clhs loop
2020-11-27T14:35:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2020-11-27T14:35:21Z frodef: thanks :)
2020-11-27T14:35:35Z frodef: afk
2020-11-27T14:35:43Z jmercouris: for-AS is the variable clause
2020-11-27T14:35:45Z jmercouris: this is just for
2020-11-27T14:35:54Z jmercouris: I think, based on what I'm seeing here
2020-11-27T14:36:00Z jmercouris: anyways, my question is answered
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2020-11-27T14:36:07Z jmercouris: it seems to be the way to go, thanks everyone
2020-11-27T14:36:33Z jackdaniel: see what for-as-clause expands to
2020-11-27T14:36:43Z jackdaniel: in this grammar
2020-11-27T14:37:47Z splittist: for-as includes for =. This may be one of the LOOP forms the MIT-derived LOOP's accept, but shouldn't. (And therefore may not in future.) (Do I mean MIT?)
2020-11-27T14:38:04Z Josh_2: afternoon
2020-11-27T14:38:22Z jmercouris: good afternoon Josh the 2nd
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2020-11-27T14:39:14Z _death: I messed up.. frodef is right.. at first it seemed fine to me, now it's obviously doesn't (looking at the grammar helped, but I doubt I wrote code like it)
2020-11-27T14:40:33Z jackdaniel: since frodef probably implemented loop from scratch for movitz things like that are very noticeable for him
2020-11-27T14:40:44Z splittist self-thwaps
2020-11-27T14:41:20Z jmercouris enjoys writing loop code
2020-11-27T14:41:45Z jmercouris: this most perverse macro :-D
2020-11-27T14:42:16Z jackdaniel: why perverse? it is a pita to remember the syntax, but when you have it memorized it is easy to use
2020-11-27T14:43:08Z jmercouris: I love pita + gyros
2020-11-27T14:43:12Z phoe: (loop for loop being the source of everything that is wrong and horrible with common lisp do ...)
2020-11-27T14:43:16Z jmercouris: perverse because of its 'unlispyness'
2020-11-27T14:43:37Z phoe: I wait for an angry enough implementer to add this as a syntax extension
2020-11-27T14:43:45Z jackdaniel: someone very accurately pointed out, that lisp is a wonderful for writing dsls and this is a dsl
2020-11-27T14:43:52Z jackdaniel: ergo - very lispy
2020-11-27T14:44:02Z jmercouris: as you wish, for me I am quite fine with it
2020-11-27T14:44:07Z jmercouris: I just know that it makes some other people salty
2020-11-27T14:44:45Z jackdaniel: loop has some flaws (i.e not extensible per standard specification, its syntax could be more grokkable etc)
2020-11-27T14:45:20Z jackdaniel: and it is complex enough to take thousands of line of code to implement (unlike do, which is fairly trivial)
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2020-11-27T14:45:48Z _death: knee-jerk anti loopism ebbs and flows
2020-11-27T14:45:57Z jmercouris: like the river danube
2020-11-27T14:46:16Z jackdaniel: this joke is lost on me, sorry
2020-11-27T14:46:19Z jackdaniel gets back to pixmaps
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2020-11-27T14:58:32Z _death: hmm, I did find a few such uses in my code.. time to fix
2020-11-27T14:59:01Z beach: (loop until (null x) do (let ((item (pop x))) (print x))
2020-11-27T14:59:35Z beach: Page 13 of the LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman.
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2020-11-27T15:00:44Z splittist: print item ?
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2020-11-27T15:01:54Z phoe: this seems kinda off unless your list does not contain NILs
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2020-11-27T15:02:23Z jackdaniel: null x checks for the list
2020-11-27T15:02:26Z jackdaniel: not its first element
2020-11-27T15:05:08Z phoe: oh wait!
2020-11-27T15:05:12Z phoe: yes, I misread
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2020-11-27T15:07:46Z Kabriel: frodef, _death is it a syntax error because of clause order, so (loop for item = (pop x) until (null x) do (print item))?
2020-11-27T15:07:58Z Kabriel: ^ would be fine
2020-11-27T15:08:33Z jackdaniel: Kabriel: from the loop syntax perspective it is fine
2020-11-27T15:08:34Z phoe: Kabriel: will not work on the last element
2020-11-27T15:08:45Z jackdaniel: however you get minus points, because you won't print last x element
2020-11-27T15:09:05Z jackdaniel: say x = (1) , first you pop, so x = (), x is null now, so you do not get to the print clause
2020-11-27T15:09:09Z phoe: (loop with x = '(1) for item = (pop x) until (null x) do (print item))
2020-11-27T15:09:10Z phoe: prints nothing
2020-11-27T15:09:27Z phoe highfives jackdaniel 
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2020-11-27T15:09:46Z Kabriel: I see it doesn't print last element.
2020-11-27T15:09:47Z jackdaniel: masz dziesiątkę <;
2020-11-27T15:10:04Z Kabriel: The original question though, is it clause order that make it a syntax error.
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2020-11-27T15:10:20Z jackdaniel: yes, error is a strong word - non conforming is better
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2020-11-27T15:11:38Z Kabriel: So is it non-conforming to have a variable-clause after a main-clause in any circumstance?
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2020-11-27T15:12:19Z Kabriel: Like this snippet: https://dpaste.com/4CFBVCRNC
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2020-11-27T15:13:39Z jackdaniel: it seems to me that way (mind, that your friendly neighborhood lisp implementation will most likely accept that though)
2020-11-27T15:14:24Z nij: Hello :) I'm reading Graham's /On lisp/. In section 3.4 he talks about functional programming, and some good practice. One of them is the following.
2020-11-27T15:14:38Z nij: "If a function must perform side-effects, try at least to give it a functional interface."
2020-11-27T15:14:46Z nij: What does this mean? A functional interface?
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2020-11-27T15:15:17Z jackdaniel: it is described later in the book afair - he talks about making it referentially transparent
2020-11-27T15:15:30Z jackdaniel: that is: perform side effects only on its local variables
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2020-11-27T15:15:54Z jackdaniel: aka: don't modify anything passed to the function nor the global state
2020-11-27T15:16:30Z nij: Oh so "effectively functional"..
2020-11-27T15:16:30Z nij:  
2020-11-27T15:16:43Z jackdaniel: (and don't depend on external state -- that applies also to closures)
2020-11-27T15:16:52Z nij: It alters variables no one else owns, and returns things no one else can alter.
2020-11-27T15:16:57Z jackdaniel: s/closures/closed over variables/
2020-11-27T15:17:09Z jackdaniel: but I may remember wrong
2020-11-27T15:17:13Z jackdaniel: so keep reading:)
2020-11-27T15:17:22Z nij: :) Thanks
2020-11-27T15:17:47Z nij: It all sounds perfectly neat and natural. Haven't had development experience yet. Dunno what real obstacle I will run into in practice.
2020-11-27T15:18:48Z jackdaniel: having the function result depend only on its inputs helps with debugging
2020-11-27T15:19:14Z nij: yeah
2020-11-27T15:19:15Z jackdaniel: that said, depending on context enables some very useful programming techniques
2020-11-27T15:19:18Z beach: splittist: Yes, sorry, I just copied and modified frodef's code.
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2020-11-27T15:19:55Z jackdaniel: pg's preference for functional-like programming seems to be more scheme-like than common-lisp-like
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2020-11-27T15:23:23Z phoe: I like this kind of mostly-functional code style myself; it provides lots of benefits coming from the functional style and some benefits coming from imperativity
2020-11-27T15:24:28Z beach: nij: On Lisp has a lot about macros, and macro expanders are a good place for functional programming since 1. They are executed at compile time, so not a performance problem at run time and 2. Macro expanders should not have any side effects on the external environment (usually).
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2020-11-27T15:25:14Z phoe: beach: I found point 2 to be more like "macroexpanders should be idempotent with their side effects"
2020-11-27T15:25:14Z frodef: (loop for item = (pop x) do (print item) until (null x)) should work?
2020-11-27T15:25:28Z phoe: frodef: what if your list is '()?
2020-11-27T15:25:30Z nij: I hope I can understand this soon
2020-11-27T15:25:42Z nij: Macros seem too advanced for me now. Yet I will keep reading :)
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2020-11-27T15:26:12Z beach: nij: the good news is that they are rarely needed.
2020-11-27T15:26:32Z phoe: beach: it's okay for macros to perform side effects as long as these effects are idempotent; interning symbols is the most obvious example
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2020-11-27T15:26:42Z beach: phoe: Indeed.
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2020-11-27T15:26:59Z phoe: while doing stuff like creating files or sending network traffic is usually a big no-no because then you have no control over how many times those are performed
2020-11-27T15:27:21Z jackdaniel: nij: if onlisp is your first programming book (or even common lisp book), I'd rather recommend ansi common lisp, pcl or paip
2020-11-27T15:27:27Z phoe: due to the fact that macros can essentially be expanded at any time any number of times.
2020-11-27T15:27:28Z jackdaniel: minion: tell nij about paip
2020-11-27T15:27:28Z minion: nij: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
2020-11-27T15:27:32Z jackdaniel: minion: tell nij about pcl
2020-11-27T15:27:32Z minion: nij: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-11-27T15:27:35Z jackdaniel: minion: tell nij about acl
2020-11-27T15:27:36Z minion: acl: https://www.cliki.net/acl
2020-11-27T15:27:59Z jackdaniel: by acl I mean paul graham book ansi common lisp (it has an excellent set of excercises after each chapter)
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2020-11-27T15:28:34Z phoe: I enjoyed PG's ANSI CL book and I can recommend it as long as you disbelieve everything he says about CLOS
2020-11-27T15:28:56Z phoe: which is, paraphrasing, too heavy, too complex
2020-11-27T15:29:07Z phoe: and defstruct is almost always better
2020-11-27T15:29:13Z curiouscain: Make sure to have a go at writing some macros, not just reading about them. There's a step between reading and writing, where the understanding becomes clearer.
2020-11-27T15:29:16Z jackdaniel: it kind of is (but it has big benefits:)
2020-11-27T15:29:36Z jackdaniel: ^ clos (not defstruct)
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2020-11-27T15:37:06Z jmercouris: why would one choose defstruct over clos?
2020-11-27T15:37:15Z jmercouris: other than less physical typing
2020-11-27T15:37:28Z beach: One should not.
2020-11-27T15:37:42Z phoe: pg gives some rationale behind it that did not age very well
2020-11-27T15:37:54Z cl-arthur: structs are quicker in terms of access etc. because they're simpler and have very little expressive power and introspection
2020-11-27T15:37:57Z tychoish: you get different autogetnerated assessors by default and a more compact in memory layout for simple cases (?)
2020-11-27T15:38:05Z tychoish: "pg"
2020-11-27T15:38:14Z nij: Oh thank you :)
2020-11-27T15:38:15Z jmercouris: I don't see how the memory constraints are significant today
2020-11-27T15:38:23Z nij: Do those books have practical exercises?
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2020-11-27T15:38:38Z tychoish: jmercouris: they aren't
2020-11-27T15:38:40Z nij: I had some background in python, and am an emacs user.
2020-11-27T15:38:43Z beach: nij: I am afraid PCL does not.
2020-11-27T15:38:43Z tychoish: except when they are :)
2020-11-27T15:38:46Z nij: I can write some easy elisp functions.
2020-11-27T15:39:08Z jmercouris: well, I can think of some very performant things in which I've chosen structs, but that is because of the way traversing them is handled
2020-11-27T15:39:09Z nij: I don't think I'd have problem understanding what macros are.. just have to go there slowly.
2020-11-27T15:39:27Z nij: The main crux I have now is the lack of motivation of writing some programs.
2020-11-27T15:39:41Z jmercouris: nobody can help you with that
2020-11-27T15:39:46Z nij: Yeah I know xD
2020-11-27T15:40:08Z curiouscain: Do you have things you want to make, but can't be bothered? Or do you have no ideas?
2020-11-27T15:40:25Z tychoish: having a small enough project that's like "tractable for a single human," is often the hard part for me.
2020-11-27T15:40:30Z Josh_2: nij: you should make tiktaktoe
2020-11-27T15:40:35Z Josh_2: ezpz
2020-11-27T15:40:37Z jmercouris: tychoish: I've heard a good project to contribute to is Nyxt
2020-11-27T15:40:48Z jmercouris: the creators are incredibly supportive and welcoming of new users ;-)
2020-11-27T15:40:49Z tychoish: jmercouris: I was literally going to suggest that next
2020-11-27T15:41:17Z curiouscain: Writing a Gemini client is easygoing enough and pretty fun.
2020-11-27T15:41:19Z jmercouris: I agree with Josh_2 tic tac toe is a good program to make
2020-11-27T15:41:20Z tychoish: nij: I'd def look at things like Nyxt or StumpWM (if you're that kind of nerd)
2020-11-27T15:41:36Z jmercouris: there are so many ways to make tic tac toe
2020-11-27T15:41:50Z jmercouris: you could use two dimensional arrays, an object graph, nested lists
2020-11-27T15:41:54Z tychoish: I disagree with team tic tac toe because it feels like an interview question and it never feels worth the time.
2020-11-27T15:41:57Z nij: tychoish: I was into haskell and am a xmonad user xD
2020-11-27T15:42:09Z nij: Maybe I will make a 2D ising model simulator.
2020-11-27T15:42:12Z jmercouris: you could make a multiplayer tic tac toe
2020-11-27T15:42:14Z nij: Sounds pretty fun.
2020-11-27T15:42:20Z nij: But there won'd be interaction then :()
2020-11-27T15:42:21Z edgar-rft makes tic tac with his toes
2020-11-27T15:42:21Z jmercouris: and build it in CLIM, then it would be useful
2020-11-27T15:42:22Z nij: :(
2020-11-27T15:42:22Z nij:  
2020-11-27T15:42:23Z tychoish: nij: then you are that kind of nerd. stump is fun :)
2020-11-27T15:42:31Z tychoish: edgar-rft: ew
2020-11-27T15:42:46Z jmercouris: on the other hand, '0' calories
2020-11-27T15:42:52Z tychoish: nil
2020-11-27T15:43:24Z nij: What is a gemini client? The term "gemini" has many meanings.
2020-11-27T15:43:28Z jmercouris: (not (eq nil 0))
2020-11-27T15:43:46Z curiouscain: A client for the Gemini protocol
2020-11-27T15:43:50Z tychoish: Gemini is... like modern Gopher
2020-11-27T15:43:50Z jackdaniel: clos is not only defclass vs defstruct kind of excercise, it brings much more - most notably generic functions
2020-11-27T15:44:02Z jackdaniel: and they are a wonderful aid for programmers, but there is no free lunch
2020-11-27T15:44:04Z jmercouris: G E N E R I C F U N C T I O N S
2020-11-27T15:44:05Z phoe: nij: gemini is a network protocol that has gained some fame as of late due to being a better Gopher with SSL and such
2020-11-27T15:44:14Z jmercouris: F U N C A L L O V E R H E A D
2020-11-27T15:44:25Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: ?
2020-11-27T15:44:30Z jmercouris: ???
2020-11-27T15:44:32Z phoe: J M E R C O U R I S : P L S S T O P
2020-11-27T15:44:48Z jmercouris: its true, they should be more computationally expensive to funcall
2020-11-27T15:45:24Z nij: Fair. Lemme watch a gemini youtube video later today.
2020-11-27T15:45:42Z nij: As for Nyxt.. I'm a long term qutebrowser user, and am quite happy with it.
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2020-11-27T15:46:09Z curiouscain: nij: Also checkout gemini.circumlunar.space all the documentation is there. The spec is quite simple, relatively speaking.
2020-11-27T15:46:11Z nij: How's Nyxt compared with qutebrowser? That it's based on lisp is definitely a big PRO.
2020-11-27T15:46:15Z beach: nij: It was not about being a user, but a contributor.
2020-11-27T15:46:15Z byallahyourpfpgi: qutebrowser is very good, the best
2020-11-27T15:46:16Z jackdaniel: defstruct accessors may generally be inlined, because you can't change a structure layout conformingly
2020-11-27T15:46:25Z nij: byallahyourpfpgi: that's my impression
2020-11-27T15:46:38Z nij: though it still doesn't support plugins of firefox and chrome :(
2020-11-27T15:46:49Z beach: Is qutebrowser written Common Lisp?
2020-11-27T15:46:53Z byallahyourpfpgi: bah, i dont need much
2020-11-27T15:46:58Z nij: I do hope there to be a vim/emacs- like browser that can use all those goodies from the normie world.
2020-11-27T15:47:00Z byallahyourpfpgi: python, beach
2020-11-27T15:47:01Z curiouscain: Qutebrowser is python
2020-11-27T15:47:03Z nij: beach: python :(
2020-11-27T15:47:04Z Josh_2: yikes
2020-11-27T15:47:33Z beach: So then, it's a completely different issue.  Contributing to qutebrowser won't be a Common Lisp project for you.
2020-11-27T15:47:35Z byallahyourpfpgi: the webengine is qtwebengine tho
2020-11-27T15:47:48Z nij: I will contribute if I actually use it.
2020-11-27T15:48:00Z nij: To actually use it there should be a reason :S
2020-11-27T15:48:13Z beach: nij: If you contribute to a project, you can make it better than what you are currently using.
2020-11-27T15:48:14Z nij: I'm cursed by qutebrowser and therefore by python..
2020-11-27T15:48:18Z byallahyourpfpgi: i will try nyxt, looks interesting
2020-11-27T15:48:35Z nij: beach: sounds legit
2020-11-27T15:48:41Z nij: I will give it a try :)
2020-11-27T15:48:52Z nij: Which framework does it rely on?
2020-11-27T15:49:05Z byallahyourpfpgi: oh no, it uses webkitgtk
2020-11-27T15:49:10Z byallahyourpfpgi: :(
2020-11-27T15:49:22Z nij: Eg qutebrowser relies on QtWebEngine
2020-11-27T15:49:33Z byallahyourpfpgi: which is chromium
2020-11-27T15:49:38Z nij: Many features I like cannot be added if it still relies on that.
2020-11-27T15:49:52Z nij: byallahyourpfpgi: yes, it has many pros and cons
2020-11-27T15:50:16Z nij: If Nyxt is based on some huge platform that's hard to control.. then it's going to be hard to alter then.
2020-11-27T15:50:24Z nij: s/alter then/alter
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2020-11-27T15:52:24Z Josh_2: It's not like they have much choice
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2020-11-27T15:54:49Z _death: wrt loop what's worse is that I have lots of (loop repeat ... for ...) .. very annoying
2020-11-27T15:55:34Z byallahyourpfpgi: why not recursion for everything :)
2020-11-27T15:55:48Z phoe: that's not really common in CL
2020-11-27T15:56:13Z Kabriel: _death: I frequently use a pattern for reading text files that puts a termination clause in-between variable initialization clauses.
2020-11-27T15:56:33Z phoe: Kabriel: that's non-standard CL, sadly
2020-11-27T15:56:42Z phoe: in standard LOOP, variable clauses must come before body clauses
2020-11-27T15:56:46Z phoe: and that complicates things.
2020-11-27T15:57:07Z _death: Kabriel: I often (but not always) try to avoid WITH in loop
2020-11-27T15:57:39Z Kabriel: _death: sorry, I meant variable-clause, not initialization.
2020-11-27T15:58:23Z nij: Which lisp community has the largest populations as of 2020? Or it is hard to tell?
2020-11-27T15:58:34Z phoe: you mean which dialect of Lisp?
2020-11-27T15:58:40Z nij: Yeah
2020-11-27T15:58:46Z phoe: ;; FYI, you stumbled into Common Lisp territory
2020-11-27T15:58:47Z byallahyourpfpgi: emacs lisp
2020-11-27T15:58:52Z byallahyourpfpgi: :)
2020-11-27T15:59:00Z nij: byallahyourpfpgi: What's the second?
2020-11-27T15:59:01Z Kabriel: phoe: I was pining the cleanup work I have.
2020-11-27T15:59:03Z phoe: I would guess clojure? it's pretty famous and hype nowadays
2020-11-27T15:59:13Z nij: phoe: That's my impression.
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2020-11-27T15:59:19Z Josh_2: pretty sure clojure hype is declining
2020-11-27T15:59:21Z phoe: Kabriel: yes, I understand; still, (loop for ... while ... for ...) is not portable
2020-11-27T15:59:26Z byallahyourpfpgi: <Kabriel "phoe: I was pining the cleanup w"> clojure's the hype
2020-11-27T15:59:29Z nij: Josh_2: That's also my impression too.
2020-11-27T15:59:33Z byallahyourpfpgi: clojure and racket
2020-11-27T15:59:59Z byallahyourpfpgi: one of em
2020-11-27T16:00:06Z nij: Maybe which one is going to help me the most if some day I degenerate myself to work in huge companies..?
2020-11-27T16:00:23Z byallahyourpfpgi: hmm
2020-11-27T16:00:27Z beach: nij: Since there is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp", some people might include languages that some others think don't belong.
2020-11-27T16:00:43Z byallahyourpfpgi: idk any huge companies that use any lisp lol
2020-11-27T16:00:46Z phoe: nij: which community, or which language?
2020-11-27T16:01:00Z nij: phoe: which lisp dialect
2020-11-27T16:01:01Z phoe: I find CL really insightful in my daily job even though I do C/C++/Erlang for a living
2020-11-27T16:01:23Z nij: phoe: Glad to know that.
2020-11-27T16:01:30Z phoe: the language is an eye-opener due to its inherent multiparadigm nature and the fact that it does its best to get out of the way and let the programmer figure out how they want to approach a given problem
2020-11-27T16:01:44Z nij: Why don't people use it?
2020-11-27T16:01:46Z phoe: and then approach it from that point of view without fighting the constraints of the language
2020-11-27T16:01:50Z nij: Is it because it's too easy to use?
2020-11-27T16:01:51Z phoe: nij: wat
2020-11-27T16:01:57Z phoe: I can't say that people don't use it
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2020-11-27T16:02:08Z nij: Most programmers don't use it.
2020-11-27T16:02:08Z byallahyourpfpgi: <nij "Is it because it's too easy to u"> because its too fragmented
2020-11-27T16:02:22Z nij: byallahyourpfpgi: fragmented?
2020-11-27T16:02:48Z phoe: the parens scare a lot of people away. which is kinda sad.
2020-11-27T16:02:57Z phoe: but I'd say a lot of major commercial backing at the moment.
2020-11-27T16:03:02Z byallahyourpfpgi: () and too many dialects
2020-11-27T16:03:23Z phoe: companies are definitely capable of pushing even shitty languages down people's throats when they throw enough money at the problem
2020-11-27T16:03:28Z nij: Maybe it's because it's too easy to abstract?
2020-11-27T16:03:43Z nij: I'm a math PhD student who recently started to pick programming up.
2020-11-27T16:03:45Z phoe: ;; looking at you, Apple and Google
2020-11-27T16:04:01Z nij: I can definitely understand the power and the ease of abstractions, once one masters it.
2020-11-27T16:04:07Z tfb: I think it's at least largely because there is corporate memory of the last AI winter.
2020-11-27T16:04:12Z nij: But the price to pay is that
2020-11-27T16:04:24Z nij: while it is easier for those who have learned the abstractions,
2020-11-27T16:04:36Z byallahyourpfpgi: <nij "Maybe it's because it's too easy"> i would lisp really started declining in the 90s due to hype of other langs in the corporate sphere
2020-11-27T16:04:41Z nij: it creates /density [On lisp. Section 4.8]/ for people who haven't.
2020-11-27T16:04:47Z nij: so much density..
2020-11-27T16:05:09Z nij: This is why higher category theory, while on one hand is nice, does not have large community yet.
2020-11-27T16:05:22Z nij: I imagine perhaps lisp has the same curse.
2020-11-27T16:05:38Z nij: It's too easy to make itself easier, thus also too easy to make people think they are easier.
2020-11-27T16:05:45Z hhdave: Apple's Cambridge research lab used to do a lot of things with Lisp, though I think they reckoned the parens would scare away many programmers, so they created Dylan.
2020-11-27T16:05:45Z tfb: Also there is this myth that lisp is 'declining'.  I'm pretty sure there is more work being done in and around CL today than there was twenty years ago.  And I was there then (and before).
2020-11-27T16:06:04Z hhdave: Jobs cancelled all that stuff though.
2020-11-27T16:07:13Z nij: Perhaps I should ask a more specific question.
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2020-11-27T16:08:15Z Kabriel: _death: why do you mostly avoid WITH?
2020-11-27T16:08:15Z nij: Sure, the fact that lisp eases the process of abstraction does make life easier. But does it really make your programs easier to read, if you haven't looked at it for ten years?
2020-11-27T16:08:34Z nij: You might have to relearn all the abstractions you have created to make it "simpler".
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2020-11-27T16:09:08Z _death: Kabriel: because I mostly try to keep my loops simple.. https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/one-function.txt
2020-11-27T16:09:13Z phoe: nij: that's rarely the case
2020-11-27T16:09:16Z tfb: nij: If the abstractions are good, then they're still easy to read.  If they're bad, not so much.
2020-11-27T16:09:29Z hhdave: nij: that /can/ be a problem with lisp programs. The language is so mutible and the tempation great. Discretion is advised.
2020-11-27T16:09:31Z phoe: macrostepping is really nice to understand macros if they simply hide away syntax
2020-11-27T16:09:32Z nij: Versus in python say, developers are doomed to use low-level functions.. but that makes life easier cuz one does not have to learn all those new functions.
2020-11-27T16:09:43Z hhdave: macro expanding is your friend :)
2020-11-27T16:09:49Z save-lisp-or-die: I've read some cogent opinions about the mystery of CL's underuse in industry that cite "developer fungibility" as the reason large companies prefer not to use lisp. The reasoning goes something like: it is too easy for a single lisper to invent their own conventions & therefore that lisper is harder to replace.
2020-11-27T16:10:03Z phoe: that makes life hell because you have lots of code that is required to be repeated in many places without the ability to abstract syntax away
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2020-11-27T16:10:16Z phoe: save-lisp-or-die: the main line of reasoning is, where are the other people then
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2020-11-27T16:10:27Z hhdave: phoe: can be very tedious indeed :)
2020-11-27T16:10:28Z phoe: where's the code review that can review these conventions
2020-11-27T16:10:30Z curiouscain: That happens in enterprise-type languages anyway though. Applications with things like n-tier architectures are notoriously awful to go back to after a period of time.
2020-11-27T16:10:37Z phoe: where are the design rules for macro creation and usage
2020-11-27T16:10:51Z phoe: this argumentation is like "we can't use lisp because a single programmer can destroy our codebase"
2020-11-27T16:11:13Z save-lisp-or-die: I agree - the issue is addressed by codified conventions within a single organization.
2020-11-27T16:11:15Z phoe: well do you not have code reviews or design guidelines or something
2020-11-27T16:11:30Z phoe: this doesn't talk poorly about lisp, this talks poorly about your corporate development processes
2020-11-27T16:11:34Z phoe rant off
2020-11-27T16:11:42Z save-lisp-or-die: I completely agree
2020-11-27T16:11:57Z save-lisp-or-die: but I think the argument might still persuade some fearful managers
2020-11-27T16:12:33Z phoe: managers who are fearful enough are already having their fears corporately tended to by Oracle
2020-11-27T16:12:38Z phoe: and, well, they do pay the price for that
2020-11-27T16:12:47Z phoe: but that's already off-topic
2020-11-27T16:13:13Z save-lisp-or-die enjoys warming hands by the fire of phoe's ire
2020-11-27T16:14:11Z phoe: :(
2020-11-27T16:14:44Z save-lisp-or-die: :0 meant to be a warm appreciation for your dedication to lisp!
2020-11-27T16:14:52Z hhdave: nij: I think programming language popularity is a complex thing, often involving much history and culture as well as technical considerations.
2020-11-27T16:16:09Z nij: hhdave: :(
2020-11-27T16:16:22Z tfb: The argument that all lisp projects end up in their own language built on Lisp is very weak: *all* large projects end up with their own language, it's just usually a shitty language built on strings
2020-11-27T16:16:35Z nij: I want to share the nicety of lisp to my IT friends. But all of them are working and are "practical".
2020-11-27T16:16:49Z nij: I find it hard to penetrate thier GTD mentality.
2020-11-27T16:17:08Z phoe: you can only pretend that your large project is not its own language because "it's written in Java, look, we use maven to build it"
2020-11-27T16:17:43Z hhdave: I think you'll find the unfamiliarity of lisp to be a big block with them too.
2020-11-27T16:17:46Z phoe: lisp just makes this much more explicit because you no longer perform new ContextManagerInstantiationManager(...) and instead you (defmanager ...)
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2020-11-27T16:24:23Z tfb: phoe: except, you don't use maven.  You use some configuration management tool you wrote which uses Jinja2 and three other home-made templating systems to write maven configurations
2020-11-27T16:25:17Z tfb: phoe: and the Java code is also preprocessed by Jinja2 (except you need to use another version of it).
2020-11-27T16:25:27Z tfb: but still 'it's in Java' so that's OK
2020-11-27T16:26:05Z phoe: tfb: yes, very yes
2020-11-27T16:26:16Z ck_: ... but no problem you just open Eclipse and use this dialog to build the configuration and then click here and here and 'ok' -- and then just do it again because the first time always crashes
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2020-11-27T16:28:42Z byallahyourpfpgi: ok so I'm trying out nyxt
2020-11-27T16:29:15Z byallahyourpfpgi: I expected it to have vim keybinds inside the webpage
2020-11-27T16:32:14Z tfb: (And just to finish my rant, there are lots of configurations you use.  They are all slightly different copies of each other.  when you find a bug you have to fix it in 248 different places.  OK, finished.)
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2020-11-27T16:45:53Z jmercouris: byallahyourpfpgi: it does
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2020-11-27T17:09:41Z Kabriel: _death: that was insightful. Thanks for the read.
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2020-11-27T17:16:04Z Josh_2: 'one function to a function' sounds like a good idea
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2020-11-27T17:23:48Z Josh_2: "Good Lisp coding is like good nutrition" lul
2020-11-27T17:25:51Z jmercouris: sounds is not is
2020-11-27T17:25:59Z jmercouris: these rules are too often taken as absolutes
2020-11-27T17:26:27Z jmercouris: 1000 one line functions can be far more difficult to reason about than 5 200 line functions
2020-11-27T17:26:29Z Josh_2: _death: are there other gems in the directory 'usenet-gems'? I get 403'd
2020-11-27T17:26:49Z Josh_2: jmercouris: yes as the author addresses
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2020-11-27T17:27:36Z jmercouris: well, the other says a "strict diet"
2020-11-27T17:27:43Z jmercouris: and then contradicts themselves later
2020-11-27T17:28:17Z _death: Josh_2: the main page contains links to them (I need to update it some day)
2020-11-27T17:30:01Z Josh_2: _death: coolio, I'll take a gander
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2020-11-27T17:47:00Z Kabriel: I particularly enjoyed https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/lisp-dying.txt
2020-11-27T17:50:13Z beach: Very eloquent as usual.
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2020-11-27T17:54:15Z hhdave: Xach: I think you may have over egged it with circulating the job ad. Ron Garret just emailed me enquiring! (thanks!)
2020-11-27T17:59:44Z Josh_2: Kabriel: what a great mini essay
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2020-11-27T18:00:35Z phoe: clhs.lisp.se seems down
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2020-11-27T18:04:32Z jeosol: Good morning!
2020-11-27T18:04:55Z jeosol: phoe: is there a distribution list for the twitch talks
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2020-11-27T18:06:04Z phoe: jeosol: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/listinfo/online-lisp-meets
2020-11-27T18:06:20Z jeosol: merci
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2020-11-27T18:09:14Z jeosol: thansk: subscribed
2020-11-27T18:09:29Z phoe: <3
2020-11-27T18:12:08Z jeosol: had rain this morning, computer tripped off and my runs died. Was able to find the gnuplot issues though, so no entering debugger
2020-11-27T18:12:16Z jeosol: Need to get a UPS pack
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2020-11-27T18:38:58Z Josh_2: jeosol: what are you doing?
2020-11-27T18:40:12Z jeosol: josh_2: I am running meta-optimization (optimizing and optimizer) and the F(X) for the sub-optimization is very expensive, so it can take weeks. I do a test with a table-look (in the sub)
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2020-11-27T18:41:15Z jeosol: afterwards, I run the more expensive problem. My last UPS powerpack is dead, so I was taking risk to run the jobs. Unfortunately, rain today caused the power to trip.
2020-11-27T18:41:58Z jeosol: jobsh_2: not sure it's former was clear enough, but it's simpler optimization runs
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2020-11-27T18:46:22Z Josh_2: What do you mean by running meta-optimization? is this a lisp project?
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2020-11-27T18:58:43Z frodef:  what is a decent libary for emitting javascript?
2020-11-27T18:59:13Z phoe: parenscript I guess
2020-11-27T19:03:26Z frodef: thanks
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2020-11-27T19:19:21Z phoe: minion: memo for pfdietz: I have some people who are interested in your work on random-testing the SBCL compiler and the techniques you used and the effects that it had and the bugs that it uncovered; is there any published code/research that I should link them to?
2020-11-27T19:19:21Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-11-27T19:20:09Z phoe: minion: memo for pfdietz: also, if you ever have the time to prepare and speak about it, I would love to listen to this on an Online Lisp Meeting someday (and so would these people).
2020-11-27T19:20:09Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-11-27T20:23:30Z jeosol: josh_2: Apologies as that wasn't very clear. The code  is written in CL (SBCL).
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2020-11-27T20:25:19Z jeosol: josh_2: Now for the meta-optimization part, some people call it meta-learning (in the machine learning community). I have an optimizer (hereafter sub-optimizer) that I want to use to optimize a problem but this optimizer takes some (tuning) parameters, e.g., a, b, c, d, and the setting can make it performance better or worse
2020-11-27T20:26:33Z jeosol: So now, I push a second optimizer on top of the sub-optimizer (to determine the best parameters for a, b, c,d) while solving the underlying process. It's a very expensive computation
2020-11-27T20:27:07Z jeosol: It's very specific, perhaps, sometime, I will try to see if I can share results/process. But yes, I use CL for everything.
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2020-11-27T20:29:08Z Josh_2: oooooooh
2020-11-27T20:29:15Z Josh_2: CL is epic so I dont blame you for using it for everything
2020-11-27T20:29:19Z jeosol: apart from proprietary third-party (FORTRAN) executable does the more expensive forward F(X) calculations
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2020-11-27T20:29:44Z Josh_2: but I assumed (wrongfully) you were talking about code optimization but now I see you mean machine learning it makes a lot more sense
2020-11-27T20:29:49Z Josh_2: Thanks for explaining it!
2020-11-27T20:29:53Z jeosol: josh_2: in my case, I had control for the whole workflow, I just used what was best. The first version from grad school used matlab though, then C++,
2020-11-27T20:30:53Z jeosol: josh_2: yeah, it is the sense of machine learning. I wish I can make my builds faster though. Fare did tell me to look at poiu but haven't been able to make it work
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2020-11-27T20:32:02Z jeosol: josh-2: "best" above was my opinion;
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2020-11-27T20:39:51Z Josh_2: jeosol: okay :P
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2020-11-27T20:43:29Z Josh_2: was quid-pro-quo removed from quicklisp? If so are there any alternatives?
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2020-11-27T20:48:02Z jeosol: josh_2: sorry i am a bit tired ... hence explanation. But overall experience with CL has been good but I got a lot of help here and comp.lang.lisp (earlier)
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2020-11-27T20:48:17Z jeosol: TIL, I had to look up the quid-pro-quo
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2020-11-27T21:06:31Z Josh_2: Is anyone updating the list at https://lisp-lang.org/wiki/article/recommended-libraries ?
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2020-11-27T21:44:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: flip214: there is a #slime channel too
2020-11-27T21:44:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm interested in why JSON instead of s-expressions. I assume for integration with other editors or something?
2020-11-27T21:45:24Z Fare: jeosol: what didn't work about POIU? Which versions of ASDF and POIU were you using to build what?
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2020-11-27T22:41:48Z cl-arthur: I like this adeht.org site, cool stuff :)
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2020-11-27T22:52:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: The importance Kent Pitman attaches to symbol plists here is interesting: https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/data-hygiene.txt
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2020-11-27T23:04:17Z Josh_2: I read that
2020-11-27T23:04:20Z Josh_2: interesting stuff
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2020-11-27T23:41:34Z oni-on-ion: hmm very interesting read. i came across this yesterday, also very interesting : https://neilmadden.blog/2020/11/25/parse-dont-type-check/
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2020-11-27T23:48:54Z oni-on-ion: what is the namespace for ":keyword" -- CL KEYWORD ?
2020-11-27T23:49:15Z no-defun-allowed: A keyword is in the KEYWORD package, yes.
2020-11-27T23:49:24Z oni-on-ion: kk, interesting
2020-11-27T23:51:35Z no-defun-allowed: In a sufficiently large-scale system, you find that you might use some names for some actions which someone else uses different names for. We would ideally have the users of protocols negotiate their differences, and that would preclude any type-checking.
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2020-11-27T23:52:50Z oni-on-ion: yeah
2020-11-27T23:53:39Z no-defun-allowed: And in a sufficiently old system, you have old data and new data, which can't be handled with the same grammars and logic. So a good trick would be to stick as much logic in the object that you write to disk, so you'll be sure you can use it later, and update it only if necessary. (This idea really only works in decentralised development, where there isn't one linear progression of worse-to-better.)
2020-11-27T23:54:32Z oni-on-ion: Distributed Objects?
2020-11-27T23:55:15Z no-defun-allowed: In other words, we avoid the low-level trappings of writing data structures, and find our types to be very, very abstract. I wrote about this in <http://lettingthedaysgoby.altervista.org/translate-what-data/the-drive-to-2021.html> and the article before it (lop off the-drive-to-2021.html).
2020-11-27T23:55:17Z no-defun-allowed: Exactly.
2020-11-27T23:55:21Z oni-on-ion: fiddlerwoaroof, do you happen to have any similar notes/articles related to this ? (symbolic programming, lisp1/2, data vs. program  separation, etc)
2020-11-27T23:56:17Z oni-on-ion: oh imma read that. but we did have this in UNIX days, programs/binaries. piping and shells in whatever languages (talking with plain text/binary). now we split them into .so/.dll - now we've larger monster programs, and web services =/
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2020-11-27T23:58:07Z no-defun-allowed: Also, I dislike the argument that you must know you can do something to do it in dynamically typed languages, when I can happily (make-instance 4) and, sure enough, that's a valid program. It does something -- not anything useful really, but I can handle it, and it is a legal expression in Common Lisp.
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2020-11-27T23:58:48Z oni-on-ion: about type safety / inference ?
2020-11-27T23:59:42Z no-defun-allowed: With message-passing and doesNotUnderstand: or the like, you definitely cannot tell if an object doesn't understand a message (i.e doesn't call Object#doesNotUnderstand:) without trying it.
2020-11-28T00:00:09Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, it's a really boring argument in favour for static-structural typing.
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2020-11-28T00:00:30Z no-defun-allowed: ("doesn't understand" would call Object#doesNotUnderstand: rather.)
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2020-11-28T00:01:54Z oni-on-ion: ahh, yeah. and yeah =)
2020-11-28T00:02:39Z no-defun-allowed: In my case, I am pretty sure my inference techniques are NP-hard - but I guess the "type" of my objects would be the union of their protocols, with all the real names stripped out for gensyms.
2020-11-28T00:03:01Z lotuseater: in things about legal expressions: i tell people that i can easily use eg '1/z for the name of a lexically scoped parameter and everybody gets confused and responds that's not understandable
2020-11-28T00:03:25Z no-defun-allowed: That's decidable (I think ML type inference is also NP) but if you also permit arbitrary code in the FSM I describe, it is definitely undecidable.
2020-11-28T00:03:42Z no-defun-allowed: lotuseater: Heh, yeah, I once showed some Scheme code to someone and they got confused about the ? in number?
2020-11-28T00:03:50Z lotuseater: hehe
2020-11-28T00:04:18Z lotuseater: or "the function's name is m/s". no way!
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2020-11-28T00:20:03Z no-defun-allowed: And I recall the ! in set! also was hard to read.
2020-11-28T00:20:34Z no-defun-allowed: With a pair of || you can even write |Behold, a variable name!|
2020-11-28T00:23:10Z lotuseater: it's very expressive
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2020-11-28T00:39:52Z lotuseater: but how does it work with the pipes? with (get-macro-character #\|) I get NIL
2020-11-28T00:40:36Z no-defun-allowed: I'll have to check, but it's part of the symbol reading stuff and thus not a macro character.
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2020-11-28T00:41:27Z no-defun-allowed: clhs 2.2
2020-11-28T00:41:27Z specbot: Reader Algorithm: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm
2020-11-28T00:41:46Z no-defun-allowed: The vertical bar | is a multiple escape character, and so rule #7 applies.
2020-11-28T00:41:59Z lotuseater: ah cool, didn't read that section yet
2020-11-28T00:42:47Z lotuseater: but I thought "first dispatch-macro-characters, then macro-characters"
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2020-11-28T00:43:55Z lotuseater: and yes, | is good to escape the routine that brings all chars to uppercase
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2020-11-28T01:08:40Z thmprover: Question: when I write something like (defstruct (foo (:type list)) name age weight), this is just creating a list "under the hood", right? In the sense that (make-foo "Joe" 38 145) produces the same result as '("Joe" 38 145).
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2020-11-28T01:09:33Z no-defun-allowed: From memory (I don't usually use a different :type), yes, except that you can mutate the result of the former but not the latter without UB.
2020-11-28T01:09:46Z no-defun-allowed: (list "Joe" 38 145) <=> (make-foo "Joe" 38 145) otherwise.
2020-11-28T01:10:03Z thmprover: Good, good.
2020-11-28T01:10:13Z lotuseater: and it gives you structured initialization
2020-11-28T01:10:50Z thmprover: So would omitting the '(:type list) part, would that change the memory layout at all?
2020-11-28T01:11:40Z White_Flame: yes you'd get a structure object, which is generally a single block of memory
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2020-11-28T01:12:01Z lotuseater: good question, I thought about structs up to now in general represented in memory as vectors
2020-11-28T01:12:03Z no-defun-allowed: That would create its own object, which is trivial to detect as an instance of the structure-class FOO.
2020-11-28T01:12:39Z oni-on-ion: UB?
2020-11-28T01:12:42Z no-defun-allowed: That wouldn't be too far off, except that structures are tagged as such. (type-of (make-foo ...)) should return FOO every time.
2020-11-28T01:12:54Z no-defun-allowed: oni-on-ion: It is undefined behaviour as to what happens if you modify literal data.
2020-11-28T01:12:59Z oni-on-ion: ah right.
2020-11-28T01:15:22Z thmprover: So wait, let me get this straight, without the 'type, it's layout is like a vector? More analogous to C structs in memory? Whereas `(:type list)` would make it a linked list in memory (well, I just confirmed on my repl it's `equal` to a list with the same components)
2020-11-28T01:15:38Z White_Flame: yes, just like C structs
2020-11-28T01:15:51Z White_Flame: except they have some sort of type identifier at the front
2020-11-28T01:16:03Z thmprover: C structs with bonus parts :)
2020-11-28T01:16:04Z lotuseater: providing (:type list) also generates SETF methods
2020-11-28T01:16:17Z White_Flame: which is usually just a single pointer to the struct's type
2020-11-28T01:16:54Z thmprover: OK, this is all good to know.
2020-11-28T01:17:36Z lotuseater: just do MACROEXPAND on your example and explore yourself :)
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2020-11-28T01:18:10Z White_Flame: or DISASSEMBLE the creation, and see the multiple cons allocations for each list cell, vs a single allocation for the stuct
2020-11-28T01:18:54Z lotuseater: thmprover: using CLOS for easy stuff could be a bit heavy, DEFSTRUCT is very lightweight and you can also have simple inheritance
2020-11-28T01:19:30Z White_Flame: I use (:type list) to automatically create accessors for the fields of preexisting lists
2020-11-28T01:19:39Z White_Flame: but yeah normal structs otherwise
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2020-11-28T01:21:04Z thmprover: I've been working on a pattern matching program to do symbolic math, and I'm about to add integrals to it, which is what prompts my asking.
2020-11-28T01:21:17Z lotuseater: oh cool
2020-11-28T01:21:31Z thmprover: I wasn't sure if there was any advantage to a defstruct + (:type list), or just a vanilla '(list 'integral ...)
2020-11-28T01:21:42Z White_Flame: identity, and performance
2020-11-28T01:22:14Z White_Flame: you don't know if (INTEGRAL ...) is an actual intentional integral, or a list that happens to have that value there
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2020-11-28T01:22:44Z White_Flame: (oh, a defstruct without :type list I mean)
2020-11-28T01:22:59Z thmprover: White_Flame: good point!
2020-11-28T01:23:08Z no-defun-allowed: I would use standard-classes first, then structure-classes if the added indirection of standard-class is a problem.
2020-11-28T01:23:39Z thmprover: Although highly unlikely, I would want to avoid the accidental '(integral ...) mistaken as an intentional integral
2020-11-28T01:24:07Z lotuseater: thmprover: maybe chapters 8 and 15 of the PAIP book help you :) it gave me good insights
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2020-11-28T01:26:05Z thmprover: lotuseater: those are good chapters of PAIP, I'm actually mulling over chapter 15.
2020-11-28T01:27:29Z thmprover: I've been reading the first few chapters of BPS while studying the SCMUTILS library. SCMUTILS is what prompted this little adventure, trying to get something similar working in Common Lisp.
2020-11-28T01:27:56Z lotuseater: do you have a link?
2020-11-28T01:28:15Z lotuseater: I'm very interested in such stuff :)
2020-11-28T01:29:13Z thmprover: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/6946/installation.htm
2020-11-28T01:29:27Z thmprover: It's the code used in SICM (Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics)
2020-11-28T01:29:43Z lotuseater: oh hm got not found error
2020-11-28T01:30:06Z thmprover: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/6946/installation.html
2020-11-28T01:30:16Z lotuseater: yes I know that
2020-11-28T01:30:17Z thmprover: Sorry forgot to copy/paste the "html"
2020-11-28T01:30:19Z thmprover: Gah
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2020-11-28T01:31:10Z lotuseater: okay not too much offtopic ...
2020-11-28T01:31:48Z oni-on-ion: why are lispers afraid of macros ?
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2020-11-28T01:32:21Z thmprover: Macros are like superpowers: they're awesome, until you accidentally destroy Metropolis.
2020-11-28T01:32:32Z oni-on-ion: seems most lisp code i've found dont even use macro for C #define style text replacement; i dont undersantd
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2020-11-28T01:32:45Z White_Flame: I wouldn't extrapolate so hard
2020-11-28T01:33:25Z no-defun-allowed: I disagree, my code has quite a few macros.
2020-11-28T01:33:28Z oni-on-ion: perhaps "lisper" is more occupied with sound of mechanical keyboard to type stuff out over and over
2020-11-28T01:33:35Z lotuseater: somebody once want to told me C and Lisp macros are the same stuff o_O and C++ templates are the greatest stuff out there
2020-11-28T01:33:52Z no-defun-allowed: I would have to disagree, but I don't really want to if you like C++ templates.
2020-11-28T01:34:16Z no-defun-allowed: drmeister once famously said C++ templates are to Lisp macros as IRS tax forms are to poetry.
2020-11-28T01:34:22Z lotuseater: "With real macros comes great responsibility."
2020-11-28T01:34:41Z thmprover: no-defun-allowed: That's a great analogy.
2020-11-28T01:34:55Z lotuseater: no-defun-allowed: I HATE C++ and templates are weak IMO
2020-11-28T01:35:15Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, okay, I misparsed, thinking that you said the stuff after o_O
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2020-11-28T01:35:24Z lotuseater: and yes I know that awesome quote
2020-11-28T01:35:53Z lotuseater: even C++ experts don't get everything of the language these days
2020-11-28T01:36:13Z lotuseater: no-defun-allowed: that was what the same person told me
2020-11-28T01:36:24Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
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2020-11-28T01:40:59Z matzy_: i have a question, i'm surprised by the results of running my function here: https://pastebin.com/P6idQqdW
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2020-11-28T01:42:03Z lotuseater: but if I also would be really good in C++ there where less job problems ... it does not fit in my head
2020-11-28T01:42:24Z no-defun-allowed: UNLESS will evaluate its body if the test value is false. Consider what (unless (member 4 '(0 1 2)) body ...) will do.
2020-11-28T01:42:33Z lotuseater: matzy_: sry slow internet atm
2020-11-28T01:43:50Z matzy_: i understand what that does, it recurses, so I go "three" layers deep so to speak until I enter 2, so I understand why 2 prints, but does it then go "back up the stack" so to speak and complete the code for the rest of the functions, past the point where the recursion was called?
2020-11-28T01:43:53Z no-defun-allowed: Also, note that FORMAT will always be called after. I'll guess either of those is what surprised you.
2020-11-28T01:44:13Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, it will continue evaluating after a function call.
2020-11-28T01:44:22Z Josh_2: matzy_: yes
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2020-11-28T01:45:09Z matzy_: so it hits the first recursive function, goes in there, that hits a recursive function which is valid and completes, then that exits back to the middle function, which completes, and then that exits to the outer function which then completes?
2020-11-28T01:45:22Z no-defun-allowed: My guess is this function is supposed to keep prompting the user until they enter 0, 1 or 2, and then do something with the result.
2020-11-28T01:45:28Z matzy_: exactly
2020-11-28T01:45:35Z matzy_: i was just surprised it printed 3 and 4
2020-11-28T01:45:41Z matzy_: i thought it would print 2 and stop
2020-11-28T01:45:54Z no-defun-allowed: So you are asking it to always write the number with FORMAT outside a conditional form.
2020-11-28T01:46:20Z matzy_: yeah, i guess i thought when you hit a recursive function, you go in there and stop executing the rest
2020-11-28T01:47:04Z no-defun-allowed: It does continue as normal. I don't think Common Lisp has a notion of recursive or non-recursive functions.
2020-11-28T01:47:27Z no-defun-allowed: (But it is not a tail call anyway, you still have stuff to do after calling PLAYER-TURN2.)
2020-11-28T01:47:30Z matzy_: calling a function within itself isn't considered recursive?
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2020-11-28T01:48:13Z no-defun-allowed: A Common Lisp implementation doesn't really care, it does the same thing if it is calling the same function or another one.
2020-11-28T01:48:27Z matzy_: ahhhh ok
2020-11-28T01:48:30Z matzy_: gotcha
2020-11-28T01:48:35Z matzy_: thank you!!
2020-11-28T01:48:40Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
2020-11-28T01:49:23Z White_Flame: and that's not really CL specific.  most programming language behave that way
2020-11-28T01:50:00Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed.
2020-11-28T01:50:22Z White_Flame: most recursive programming is usually "if still-recursing, then do some work & recurse, else print/return final value"
2020-11-28T01:50:42Z White_Flame: so the UNLESS would turn into an IF to only print the innermost result
2020-11-28T01:51:11Z White_Flame: doing the FORMAT in the success case, and recursing on the failure case
2020-11-28T01:51:12Z no-defun-allowed: My guess (again) is that you may have thought that form would be tail-recursive, which is the case if there's nothing more to do, and so immediately jumping into that function, without setting up returning to the current function, maintains the illusion that you have called them like normal.
2020-11-28T01:52:00Z no-defun-allowed: If you write the base case first, then a reader who is familiar with induction would be able to decide if your code will behave and not infinitely recurse.
2020-11-28T01:54:37Z White_Flame: if you just want to jump back, GOTO style, (tagbody try-again (format t "Please ...") ... (unless (member ..) (go try-again)) ...)
2020-11-28T01:57:16Z White_Flame: the tail-recursive IF is actually equivalent to that
2020-11-28T01:57:22Z White_Flame: just cleaner
2020-11-28T01:59:11Z surabax: cl-glfw3's fragment-shader-example instantly closes on launch without any errors on SBCL and Windows 10
2020-11-28T01:59:31Z surabax: Every other example works fine
2020-11-28T02:00:58Z surabax: It's supposed to show a box until the user closes it
2020-11-28T02:01:27Z surabax: How do I even debug this?
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2020-11-28T02:07:04Z surabax: It seems to be dying on the gl:uniformf call that updates the time variable in the render function
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2020-11-28T02:23:20Z surabax: I forced it to recompile the shaders, and now it works
2020-11-28T02:24:32Z surabax: Looks like the examples don't clean up the OpenGL state after themselves so they break if you try to run more than one without reloading everything
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2020-11-28T03:02:12Z matzy_: no-defun-allowed: yeah you're guess sounds right, i basically thought as soon as the UNLESS condition was met and it called itself (the recursive function), it stopped executing and just exectured taht function instead rinse and repeat
2020-11-28T03:02:21Z matzy_: *your
2020-11-28T03:03:16Z no-defun-allowed: Right, UNLESS and WHEN will not affect the evaluation of anything outside of their bodies by themselves.
2020-11-28T03:04:19Z matzy_: so my thought was the only function call who should hit that second format statement would be a call that did not hit the unless and did not stop to execute another function
2020-11-28T03:04:55Z matzy_: but it makes sense - if i was calling some other random function, i sure as well wouldn't want my original/main function to stop executing after the call and return
2020-11-28T03:06:16Z matzy_: it's just weird to think about what value x has at various stages in that process, to me at least
2020-11-28T03:07:08Z matzy_: if i enter 4, 3, and 2 (lets always use this as an example - it rejects 4 and 3 and is only happy when i enter 2)
2020-11-28T03:07:33Z matzy_: it spits out 2, 3, and 4, in that order
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2020-11-28T03:56:26Z lotuseater: best question: someone asks me if lisp has data types :D
2020-11-28T03:57:29Z no-defun-allowed: It does not, short of the recursively defined structure that looks like <L> ::= () | (<L> . <L>)
2020-11-28T03:57:34Z no-defun-allowed: I think someone made an esolang based on that.
2020-11-28T03:58:02Z lotuseater: lul :D
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2020-11-28T03:58:49Z no-defun-allowed: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Parenthesis_Hell
2020-11-28T03:59:32Z lotuseater: wonderful :3
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2020-11-28T04:04:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-11-28T04:05:15Z lotuseater: ohai beach
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2020-11-28T04:11:50Z saganman: Morning beach
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2020-11-28T06:55:57Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof: right.
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2020-11-28T07:58:33Z phoe: heyyyy
2020-11-28T08:00:19Z oni-on-ion: hello
2020-11-28T08:01:46Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe.
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2020-11-28T08:57:51Z loke[m]: Recently my SLIME is only giving me 20 frames in the debugger. Is there a setting somewhere that limits this? It's consistently 20 frames, so it seems as it's just stopping.
2020-11-28T08:59:11Z no-defun-allowed: Can you not click on --more-- to get more frames?
2020-11-28T08:59:20Z loke[m]: No, there is no "more" button.
2020-11-28T08:59:28Z no-defun-allowed: Oh dear.
2020-11-28T08:59:28Z loke[m]: There used to be.
2020-11-28T08:59:48Z loke[m]: I'm going to update slime.
2020-11-28T09:01:28Z loke[m]: Hmm, after updating SLIME, the more button reappeared.
2020-11-28T09:01:29Z loke[m]: WTF
2020-11-28T09:01:34Z phoe: magic!
2020-11-28T09:02:11Z no-defun-allowed: https://youtu.be/LtQxSRiMKZU?t=56 "Magic!"
2020-11-28T09:02:19Z phoe: is this a SICP clip?
2020-11-28T09:02:30Z phoe: oh
2020-11-28T09:02:32Z phoe: it's not
2020-11-28T09:02:34Z no-defun-allowed: Not quite. Not at all, even.
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2020-11-28T14:12:31Z wayneeseguin: Can anyone point me to an example of how to actually run the tests using a `cl-project` generated project? TIA :)
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2020-11-28T14:13:21Z wayneeseguin: My main confusion point is I see a :perform (test-op ... inside the asdf:defsystem for testing, however, it's not clear to me what the intended invocation metiond is.
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2020-11-28T14:16:31Z wayneeseguin: As I typed that I realized that the main project itself is under Travis CI... I think I'm going in the right direction now https://github.com/fukamachi/cl-project/blob/master/.travis.yml#L18
2020-11-28T14:19:09Z _death: maybe (asdf:test-system "my-system")
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2020-11-28T14:23:13Z ane: does anyone know of an interesting blog/article/whatever detailing good examples of using the metaobject protocol?
2020-11-28T14:23:33Z aeth: _death: yeah, but unfortunately, ASDF:TEST-SYSTEM doesn't preserve the return value of test suites (I guess for the sake of portability, since they all mean something different)
2020-11-28T14:23:47Z aeth: _death: so it's not very useful for CI since you might want to fail if the return value = bad
2020-11-28T14:23:48Z ane: I think I just saw something, not sure where, maybe it was that insurance thing? something postgresql something?
2020-11-28T14:23:48Z phoe: ane: I'd ask no-defun-allowed
2020-11-28T14:23:59Z phoe: cl-decentralize2 uses those a real lot
2020-11-28T14:24:01Z Xach: hhdave: beware
2020-11-28T14:25:15Z phoe: ane: sealable-metaobjects is one other good use
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2020-11-28T14:26:56Z ane: thanks
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2020-11-28T14:27:14Z lotuseater: ane: there are two books, object oriented programming in CL and art of the meta object protocol. the first one is like a big tutorial on how using CLOS
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2020-11-28T14:29:05Z _death: aeth: ok, I wasn't talking about CI
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2020-11-28T14:31:01Z ane: lotuseater: thanks!
2020-11-28T14:31:49Z phoe: AMOP is amazing because it shows how to use MOP to implement CLOS
2020-11-28T14:31:56Z phoe: which is a very good use case :D
2020-11-28T14:32:19Z lotuseater: yes it is, but I not far right now understanding
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2020-11-28T14:32:46Z _death: ane: you can also check out stuff by Pascal Costanza like contextl or filtered-functions
2020-11-28T14:33:04Z lotuseater: phoe: and the cover is awesome
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2020-11-28T14:34:17Z lotuseater: the book by Keene is from 1989 and still so good
2020-11-28T14:34:39Z _death: lotuseater: there was another CLOS book with a cover by the same author btw
2020-11-28T14:35:14Z _death: https://www.amazon.com/Object-Oriented-Programming-Perspective-Andreas-Paepcke/dp/0262161362/
2020-11-28T14:35:35Z lotuseater: _death: thank you :3
2020-11-28T14:36:15Z lotuseater: it's great my mind didn't get confused with other OO stuff before
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2020-11-28T14:40:07Z _death: I'm reminded of Yegge's Execution in the Kingdom of Nouns ;)
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2020-11-28T14:40:42Z bqv:   1 > Error: The value #<A Dead Mac Pointer> is not of the expected type MACPTR.                                                      2 > While executing: CLOSE-SHARED-LIBRARY, in process Initial(0).                                                                   3 > Type :GO to continue, :POP to abort, :R for a list of available restarts.                                                       4 >
2020-11-28T14:40:44Z bqv: If continued: Skip (possibly crucial) startup function GLIB::RUN-INITIALIZERS.
2020-11-28T14:40:53Z bqv: Anyone know what I should do here?
2020-11-28T14:41:22Z bqv: I can run this, if I do it in the repl, but if I try and ccl:save-application, I get dead pointers
2020-11-28T14:41:36Z bqv: Yet I've literally only loaded a system
2020-11-28T14:41:40Z phoe: do you close and reopen libraries upon saving the core?
2020-11-28T14:41:54Z phoe: foreign libraries must be closed before the image is saved and must be reopened after the image is thawed
2020-11-28T14:42:11Z bqv: Can libi
2020-11-28T14:42:23Z phoe: otherwise you get dangling pointers.
2020-11-28T14:42:24Z bqv: *libraries be opened due to asdf:load-system?
2020-11-28T14:42:35Z phoe: yes
2020-11-28T14:42:40Z bqv: Ack.
2020-11-28T14:43:17Z bqv: Hmm, ok I have an idea, brb
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2020-11-28T14:54:33Z bqv: Ok, thought I could somehow have the load-system as part of the toplevel function, but no. So, say I have a system I wanted to create an image with, how could I do that, if it loads libraries?
2020-11-28T14:54:50Z bqv: I can't edit it to close and reopen
2020-11-28T14:55:02Z bqv: Or can I, somehow?
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2020-11-28T14:56:40Z phoe: bqv: well
2020-11-28T14:57:01Z phoe: usually you can close the libraries as a part of exit hooks and reopen them as a part of reopen hooks
2020-11-28T14:57:12Z phoe: look up Shinmera's Deploy for something that attempts to do this automatically
2020-11-28T14:57:42Z bqv: Hm
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2020-11-28T15:10:14Z lotuseater: did you know there's CLOS for C?
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2020-11-28T15:11:09Z phoe: I saw it a few times
2020-11-28T15:15:54Z edgar-rft wears his CLoak Of Shadows
2020-11-28T15:16:23Z lotuseater: :D
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2020-11-28T15:43:23Z eta: how do you provide a prefix argument for FORMAT from a variable?
2020-11-28T15:43:38Z eta: basically I want to print a number N with mincols set to X
2020-11-28T15:44:22Z beach: I used to know that.
2020-11-28T15:45:20Z Bike: use v instead of a number
2020-11-28T15:45:35Z beach: Thanks.  Saved me some time.
2020-11-28T15:46:31Z eta: just the literal string "v"?
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2020-11-28T15:46:57Z lotuseater: i cannot imagine what is meant :/
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2020-11-28T15:47:32Z eta: yep, seems to work; thanks :)
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2020-11-28T15:48:25Z beach: lotuseater: Normally, you would give parameters to a FORMAT directive as literals in the string itself, but occasionally, you want an argument to FORMAT to provide the parameter.
2020-11-28T15:48:50Z lotuseater: hm can you give an example?
2020-11-28T15:48:59Z _death: (format t "[~VA]~%" 5 123)
2020-11-28T15:49:07Z lotuseater: ahhh
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2020-11-28T15:49:53Z lotuseater: that prints 5 cols and 2 after 123
2020-11-28T15:51:19Z _death: some options support V, others do not.. kind of arbitrary
2020-11-28T15:51:55Z eta: hmm, what's the LOOP directive for iterating over every element in an arbitrary-dimensional array
2020-11-28T15:52:01Z eta: ACROSS doesn't seem to want to work
2020-11-28T15:52:28Z _death: there is none.. you can use array-row-major-index and array-total-size or a displaced array
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2020-11-28T15:52:48Z lotuseater: yes i do not know one direct either
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2020-11-28T15:53:16Z lotuseater: and in SERIES/ITERATE? they're extensible, right?
2020-11-28T15:54:00Z _death: erm, I meant row-major-aref
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2020-11-28T15:54:42Z _death: lotuseater: yes, you could extend them to do that
2020-11-28T15:55:02Z lotuseater: phew
2020-11-28T15:56:52Z lotuseater: can anyone tell me how to use FORMATs "~?"? i think it's for function calling
2020-11-28T15:57:37Z _death: (format t "~?" "~A" (list 123))
2020-11-28T15:59:56Z lotuseater: ah i call a control string as a function itself
2020-11-28T16:00:59Z _death: that way you can pass a control string and its respective arguments.. you can also nest it
2020-11-28T16:01:24Z lotuseater: uii
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2020-11-28T16:03:53Z _death: (format t "[~?]" "{~?}" (list "(~A)" (list "so deep")))
2020-11-28T16:05:51Z lotuseater: format magic
2020-11-28T16:06:31Z _death: also yes, FORMAT can take a function as a control string.. (format t (lambda (stream &rest args) (prin1 args stream)) 1 2 3)
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2020-11-28T16:08:40Z lotuseater: i always tell people it's printf on illegal drugs
2020-11-28T16:09:43Z lotuseater: or you do (format t (lambda (stream &rest args) (format NIL ...)))
2020-11-28T16:09:44Z _death: well, C compilers tend not to do anything smart with printf, even if the control string is known.. maybe give warnings, but at runtime printf interprets it
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2020-11-28T16:10:25Z _death: FORMAT has a compiler macro so can avoid runtime interpretation in such a case
2020-11-28T16:10:56Z _death: well, it could have one..
2020-11-28T16:11:05Z _death: clhs formatter
2020-11-28T16:11:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_format.htm
2020-11-28T16:11:36Z lotuseater: yes i know formatter
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2020-11-28T16:13:16Z _death: you can also pass a string instead of a stream
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2020-11-28T16:14:03Z _death: (let ((s (make-array 0 :fill-pointer t :element-type 'character))) (format s "Hello ") (format s "world") s)
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2020-11-28T16:15:15Z lotuseater: oh that automatically does VECTOR-PUSH-EXTEND
2020-11-28T16:16:12Z _death: it can be useful if you format things repeatedly, keeping the string around and just resetting the fill pointer
2020-11-28T16:16:44Z _death: (let ((s (make-array 0 :fill-pointer t :element-type 'character))) (format s "Hello ") (setf (fill-pointer s) 4) (format s "world") s)
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2020-11-28T16:17:43Z lotuseater: let me also try that in SLIME
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2020-11-28T16:24:07Z lotuseater: yes worked as expected :)
2020-11-28T16:25:10Z lotuseater: if i reset the fill-pointer the array is just shown up to that, even if it were wider extended. and LENGTH also just give the "new" value
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2020-11-28T16:26:33Z lotuseater: or maybe implementation dependent
2020-11-28T16:26:43Z _death: right.. and there's no need to repeatedly allocate new strings
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2020-11-28T16:30:12Z lotuseater: yeees that is great
2020-11-28T16:30:40Z lotuseater: i recently good croatoan running and that got me think on such stuff
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2020-11-28T16:37:32Z _death: in the particular example I gave, the array should have also been made adjustable so that its identity is guaranteed to be preserved.. but FORMAT only needs it to have a fill pointer, so you could use a big enough nonadjustable string if needed
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2020-11-28T18:23:42Z mfiano: _death: thanks for the sdl2 fixes!
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2020-11-28T18:23:46Z mfiano: (merged)
2020-11-28T18:25:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Did Erik Naggum's "Enamel" ever get released? https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/enamel.txt
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2020-11-28T18:25:42Z _death: not that I know
2020-11-28T18:26:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: An issue I have with these Usenet posts is that they are missing a lot of context
2020-11-28T18:26:29Z _death: I wrote https://gist.github.com/death/0cf23fd52d309186e52cb120f172b1e1 a long time ago
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2020-11-28T18:29:37Z surabax: Is claw-sdl supposed to be built with the cxx branch of claw? The master branch seems to be missing some symbols
2020-11-28T18:29:54Z _death: mfiano: cool, now hopefully sdl2_gfx maintainer should merge one more PR
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2020-11-28T18:32:38Z mfiano: The thread management of cl-sdl2 is kinda blah. I always had all sorts of errors in that regard, so I just use the raw init/quit/event-loop stuff
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2020-11-28T18:33:54Z _death: I see.. I have simple needs and it seems to work most of the time ;)
2020-11-28T18:34:01Z mfiano: This has worked for me because I hacked Sly/SLIME to run the REPL inside the event loop, so there is no difference from main thread
2020-11-28T18:34:24Z mfiano: Also means I don't have to do (sdl2:in-main-thread ...) for quick repl tests
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2020-11-28T18:36:16Z mfiano: the "running repl inside game loop" is actually a recognized feature of Sly with official support now :)
2020-11-28T18:36:44Z _death: nice.. I've not tried sly in years.. mainly because I prefer a very stable working environment
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2020-11-28T18:37:22Z Josh_2: Evening
2020-11-28T18:37:36Z mfiano: Odd, I have been using it for years without any stability issues
2020-11-28T18:38:33Z _death: including look and feel things? when these change it makes me crazy
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2020-11-28T18:38:42Z flip214: which UI toolkit (with a CL library) would you recommend if I need MacOS, Windows, Linux with "local" look and feel?
2020-11-28T18:39:49Z Josh_2: I'm trying to write a macro to validate the contents of a λ list, when the function is called. My attempts have not worked as I end up with a list like
2020-11-28T18:39:52Z Josh_2: oops
2020-11-28T18:42:37Z Josh_2: oo maybe I have figured out a solution
2020-11-28T18:42:45Z Josh_2: not like I explained my problem very well
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2020-11-28T18:55:26Z johnjay: flip214: tha
2020-11-28T18:55:41Z johnjay: t is a contradiction in terms
2020-11-28T18:56:17Z johnjay: cross-platform toolkits will not have the native look and feel generally speaking
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2020-11-28T19:01:19Z Josh_2: Okay plan failed. I am defining one function X which has a λ list, I would then like to make a new function Y with the exact same λ list; then from X I would like to call Y with It's λ list
2020-11-28T19:01:24Z Josh_2: I don't know if that makes sense
2020-11-28T19:02:26Z phoe: why is &rest args not an option?
2020-11-28T19:02:41Z Josh_2: oof
2020-11-28T19:03:00Z Josh_2: wait
2020-11-28T19:03:08Z phoe: (defun x (&rest args) (apply #'y args))
2020-11-28T19:03:20Z phoe: (defun y #.your-lambda-list ...)
2020-11-28T19:03:20Z Josh_2: maaaan
2020-11-28T19:04:25Z Josh_2: nope that won't work, X needs to act like a normal function
2020-11-28T19:04:37Z phoe: X is a normal function though
2020-11-28T19:04:41Z phoe: what's wrong with it?
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2020-11-28T19:49:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: flip214: CAPI
2020-11-28T19:50:58Z Josh_2: okay I finally figured something out phoe, using &rest just like you said
2020-11-28T19:51:00Z Josh_2: Thanks!
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2020-11-28T19:53:17Z phoe: <3
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2020-11-28T19:58:42Z Josh_2: it doesn't work with keywords in λ-lists but it works for normal variable names
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2020-11-28T22:06:51Z White_Flame: does anybody use Lisa?  the old rete lib in quicklisp.  the logical lhs form seems to not work for me, even from a clean load
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2020-11-28T22:10:07Z oni-on-ion: heh "Guided Tour" for McCLIM links to a scientific paper. neat...
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2020-11-28T23:08:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: I've tried from time to time, but I never can come up with a good use case
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2020-11-28T23:21:57Z White_Flame: fiddlerwoaroof: ever hit bugs in fiddling with it?
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2020-11-29T03:12:30Z oni-on-ion: SB-EXT:SYMBOL-PACKAGE-LOCKED-ERROR   what
2020-11-29T03:12:43Z oni-on-ion: my own defpackage
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2020-11-29T04:08:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-29T04:15:31Z oni-on-ion: good morning beach
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2020-11-29T06:27:42Z Iolen: Hello all guys, who f*ck alone with own hand !
2020-11-29T06:30:36Z no-defun-allowed: So, you've come into #lisp saying that sentence, and your first thought is to censor out the word "fuck".
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2020-11-29T06:40:35Z charlie770: Does anyone know what the optional argument for gensym is used for?
2020-11-29T06:40:46Z beach: clhs gensym
2020-11-29T06:40:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gensym.htm
2020-11-29T06:41:32Z White_Flame: string prefix before the number, instead of just "G"
2020-11-29T06:41:41Z White_Flame: in sbcl, it's poorly named as THING
2020-11-29T06:42:35Z charlie770: White_Flame: got it.
2020-11-29T06:42:47Z White_Flame: oh, right, it can be used to reset the counter, so it's either a string or integer
2020-11-29T06:42:59Z charlie770: White_Flame: but why would anyone want to do that?
2020-11-29T06:43:10Z White_Flame: legacy options packed into a single function
2020-11-29T06:44:26Z White_Flame: s/reset/override/
2020-11-29T06:47:33Z charlie770: what does "get" do in common-lisp?
2020-11-29T06:47:50Z beach: clhs get
2020-11-29T06:47:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get.htm
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2020-11-29T06:50:52Z beach: charlie770: Those links are for you.
2020-11-29T06:51:06Z White_Flame: each symbol has a value, but also a sideband key/value property list
2020-11-29T06:51:11Z White_Flame: (and other stuff, too)
2020-11-29T06:51:14Z charlie770: beach: thanks
2020-11-29T06:53:23Z charlie770: White_Flame: what do you mean?
2020-11-29T06:53:32Z charlie770: an example?
2020-11-29T06:54:27Z White_Flame: the example in the GET page there does walk through the steps
2020-11-29T06:55:03Z White_Flame: makes arbitrary symbols with GENSYM, and sets stuff in its plist
2020-11-29T06:55:56Z White_Flame: this style isn't used very often in modern code, though, since hashtables were created after those
2020-11-29T06:56:00Z White_Flame: are you reading really old code?
2020-11-29T06:56:24Z charlie770: White_Flame: the source of lem
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2020-11-29T06:59:04Z White_Flame: yep, I see that in there now
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2020-11-29T07:01:16Z no-defun-allowed: I would have thought I could find some techniques for reducing latency when pointer-chasing in Netfarm from object-oriented databases (which are neither), but the papers don't really have impressive results.
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2020-11-29T07:01:50Z White_Flame: yeah, the plists can be pretty fast depending on how often they're used
2020-11-29T07:01:59Z no-defun-allowed: Oops, this isn't #lispcafe.
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2020-11-29T08:16:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: hhdave: that clim-web system looks cool, but I seem to have to use a fairly old parenscript to make it work?
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2020-11-29T08:27:13Z charlie770: clhs declare
2020-11-29T08:27:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm
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2020-11-29T09:25:55Z jackdaniel: I've wanted to comment on reddit, but comments are blocked. what a pity ;)
2020-11-29T09:26:35Z beach: Is what you wanted to comment on relevant to the topic here?  If so, do you have a link?
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2020-11-29T09:27:29Z phoe: jackdaniel: are you thinking of the same thread that I am thinking of?
2020-11-29T09:27:30Z jackdaniel: yes, it is a Common Lisp Revival Fundraiser https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/k2wua9/common_lisp_revival_2020_fundraiser/, I've wanted to point out that it lacks credibility
2020-11-29T09:27:46Z flip214: johnjay: well, something like Java's foreign look isn't appreciated.... and having some abstraction that provides simple dialogs should be possible, no?
2020-11-29T09:27:48Z jackdaniel: because the person behind it had practically zero impact on the community (putting aside insults)
2020-11-29T09:28:13Z jackdaniel: I'd love to elaborate, I'm going afk, sorry (and indeed, mentioning that was a bit offtopic on my side)
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2020-11-29T09:28:48Z flip214: fiddlerwoaroof: CAPI as in the Cryptography API, the telephone API, the PowerPC API? How does that help with UI?
2020-11-29T09:29:04Z phoe: flip214: CAPI like the LispWorks GUI framework most likely
2020-11-29T09:29:07Z flip214: right now I'm using hunchentoot and start a local browser
2020-11-29T09:29:13Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/products/capi.html
2020-11-29T09:29:14Z flip214: phoe: ah, okay, didn't know about that yet
2020-11-29T09:29:27Z phoe: one of the things that LispWorks is most famous for
2020-11-29T09:29:59Z flip214: hmmm, okay...  there's no OS reimplementation, I guess
2020-11-29T09:30:38Z beach: jackdaniel: Who is behind it?
2020-11-29T09:31:33Z beach: Oh, that one?
2020-11-29T09:32:51Z phoe: beach: the very same one
2020-11-29T09:33:16Z jackdaniel: i shouldnt feed trolls, and giving them presence seems to be feeding
2020-11-29T09:33:34Z jackdaniel: so sorry for linking. yes, it is that person
2020-11-29T09:33:50Z jackdaniel: ill be back later todat o/
2020-11-29T09:33:59Z White_Flame: I've dealt with such in other spheres as well.  They simply don't go away if ignored, either
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2020-11-29T10:19:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: My favorite thing on reddit was the thread where someone told stassats to check SBCL out
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2020-11-29T10:27:36Z aeth: link?
2020-11-29T10:28:17Z aeth: nevermind, found it. https://old.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/k0wq53/lisp_use_case_question/gdnp0aw/?context=3
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2020-11-29T10:32:03Z pve: classy response :)
2020-11-29T10:33:28Z MichaelRaskin: A bit too deadpan, as it is appreciated by the audience but not by the counterparty
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2020-11-29T11:10:44Z phoe: the best thing is the stylewarning under comment https://www.reddit.com/r/LispMemes/comments/k2rtnh/
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2020-11-29T12:49:21Z Josh_2: phoe: The art you made out of the little lisp lizard is fantastic
2020-11-29T12:49:51Z phoe: Josh_2: thanks; glad that you like it
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2020-11-29T12:59:23Z Gnuxie[m]: there is art?
2020-11-29T12:59:38Z Josh_2: Gnuxie[m]: https://github.com/phoe/the-elusive-language
2020-11-29T13:00:02Z Gnuxie[m]: oh right, yeah, those are cool :3
2020-11-29T13:00:42Z phoe blush
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2020-11-29T13:28:43Z Xach: I am adapting Vectometry into an animated gif library. I intend to quantize the canvas to 256 colors with the octree method.
2020-11-29T13:29:11Z Xach: Has anyone else quantized with that or another method before?
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2020-11-29T13:46:10Z Xach: Reading the paper involves puzzling out pascal syntax and semantics :~(
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2020-11-29T13:49:56Z MichaelRaskin: Of all languages, Pascal is not a hard one with respect of figuring out syntax or semantics just from reading…
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2020-11-29T13:58:51Z edgar-rft tries hard to imagine an animated library
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2020-11-29T14:00:47Z splittist: It's a better way of presenting the source code - not just colorized, but dynamic...
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2020-11-29T14:13:44Z phoe: Xach: what's Vectometry?
2020-11-29T14:13:54Z phoe: oooooh, I see
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2020-11-29T14:41:13Z ldb: good evening everyone
2020-11-29T14:41:17Z phoe: hello
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2020-11-29T15:31:59Z jeosol: Good morning guys!
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2020-11-29T15:33:14Z Josh_2: Hey
2020-11-29T15:33:21Z jeosol: Hi Josh_2
2020-11-29T15:35:54Z jeosol: I see a new SBCL is out today. BTW, how are you guys managing and testing with compiler version. I normally just upgrade with a new version and regenerate a bunch of core files.
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2020-11-29T15:36:39Z jeosol: However, I am getting to a point where I may pin things down to use certain version. I have not used roswell, so may be it does what I need. I try not to update on a machine that runs my long jobs
2020-11-29T15:37:04Z jeosol: open to ideas
2020-11-29T15:38:33Z ldb: I think most common lisps are compatible with old versions
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2020-11-29T15:39:02Z ldb: and that is one reason I like CL
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2020-11-29T15:39:28Z Josh_2: I just dont update for about a year
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2020-11-29T15:41:27Z jeosol: Ldb: very good point, I have never had any incompatible issues at all. Only issue is the core files I used, I sometimes run a docker image.
2020-11-29T15:42:23Z jeosol: yeah, regarding incompatible changes, I occasionally have to deal with "python version hell"
2020-11-29T15:43:28Z jeosol: Josh_2: A year is nice.
2020-11-29T15:44:08Z jeosol: not big changes month to month, but probably more from year to year
2020-11-29T15:45:16Z ldb: jeosol: Oh, I don't assume binary file compatiblilty
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2020-11-29T15:46:13Z jeosol: ldb: yeah, that's my main issue - though, I could just keep the old versions and use the old binary files. It doesn't take much to generate the core files.
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2020-11-29T15:47:41Z jeosol: I am trying to learn docker .. and its docker-compose, but I haven't been able to make things work well - the part where run a service.
2020-11-29T15:47:59Z ldb: it might be a good idea to keep the SBCL version util some major upgrades are made to your program
2020-11-29T15:48:18Z jeosol: yeah I agree.
2020-11-29T15:48:45Z jeosol: I think managing multiple versions on same manage is probably not worth the hassle
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2020-11-29T15:54:58Z beach: mop extract-lambda-list
2020-11-29T15:54:58Z specbot: Matches: extract-lambda-list, extract-lambda-list.
2020-11-29T15:55:11Z beach: Hmm.
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2020-11-29T15:58:25Z beach: That should be http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/extract-lambda-list.html
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2020-11-29T15:59:42Z beach: Is it fair to say that the purpose of this function is to take a specialized lambda list and return a generic-function lambda list?
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2020-11-29T16:01:36Z Bike: maybe for the "defmethod without a defgeneric" case, but it's more generally useful
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2020-11-29T16:02:32Z beach: OK.  I guess my question is whether things like default values for &optional and &key parameters should be removed.
2020-11-29T16:04:27Z beach: ... and supplied-p parameters.
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2020-11-29T16:05:39Z beach: ... and &aux parameters.
2020-11-29T16:07:14Z Bike: i think it usually removes defaults and stuff? on existing implementations i mean
2020-11-29T16:08:00Z beach: OK, I'll go with that for now.  Thanks.
2020-11-29T16:08:58Z cl-arthur: the description only says that it removes specializers, though. I'd find it surprising if something described as removing specializers also removes information unrelated to specializers.
2020-11-29T16:10:04Z jeosol: I took an interest after beach's link. I ran the last command, but didn't get &optional in the rest, but got &rest instead
2020-11-29T16:10:24Z beach: jeosol: The last example is wrong.
2020-11-29T16:10:26Z jeosol: sbcl --v2.0.10 if that matters
2020-11-29T16:10:28Z jeosol: oh ok
2020-11-29T16:10:53Z jeosol: I was surprised at the result, so I said I should try it out. Good to know
2020-11-29T16:10:54Z beach: cl-arthur: Hmm, I think you are right.  This thing is useful for the method function.
2020-11-29T16:11:38Z beach: I'll just write a separate function for extracting a generic-function lambda list from a method lambda list.
2020-11-29T16:12:17Z cl-arthur: sounds like a good approach to me :)
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2020-11-29T16:54:49Z hhdave: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm glad you're interested in it. It does use an old parenscript, yes. I tried a newer one but it broke some code I was generating. It would be nice to update it though.
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2020-11-29T17:09:21Z johnjay: hhdave: that reminds me, I was going to ask what are the cutting-edge type libraries in CL
2020-11-29T17:09:37Z johnjay: I suppose people never remove things from a language. But it can evolve over time with new libraries
2020-11-29T17:09:48Z johnjay: nyxt looks cool for example
2020-11-29T17:09:59Z phoe: johnjay: cutting-edge type libraries? you mean something with type systems?
2020-11-29T17:10:34Z phoe: I'd suggest Coalton and Jim Newton's https://github.com/jimka2001/regular-type-expression that are both pretty damn useful
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2020-11-29T17:13:54Z johnjay: i just mean new
2020-11-29T17:15:45Z johnjay: "rational type sequence"?
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2020-11-29T17:17:56Z johnjay: ok it's regular expressions but for types in common lisp
2020-11-29T17:18:15Z johnjay: i thought it was something weirder or more abtract for specifying context free grammars
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2020-11-29T18:00:04Z loke[m]: Some Climaxima progress: https://peertube.mastodon.host/videos/watch/3113d341-006d-4d35-b4c0-3cebdbdd77ae
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2020-11-29T18:19:55Z phoe: oooooh
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2020-11-29T19:07:57Z exit70[m]: hi, I want to have a macintosh common lisp vintage
2020-11-29T19:08:13Z exit70[m]: (continue) setup.
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2020-11-29T19:10:32Z exit70[m]: I tried 5.2 (from https://code.google.com/archive/p/mcl/downloads)on 10.4 and 4.2 (from an abandonware site) on 9.1/9.2.2
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2020-11-29T19:11:18Z exit70[m]: neither has working "save application"
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2020-11-29T19:12:32Z johnjay: is mcclim mostly functional at this point?
2020-11-29T19:12:37Z johnjay: i assume that's why it says climaxima in the name
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2020-11-29T19:14:04Z phoe: yes
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2020-11-29T19:35:47Z scymtym: McCLIM is not strictly functional in the sense of, for example, ELM, but it has a concept of presenting data, accepting a user command, then re-presenting the possibly changed data
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2020-11-29T19:41:21Z exit70[m]: I will test my luck with some old mac emulators. my ppc macs might be too "new"
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2020-11-29T19:46:40Z Josh_2: can I use fast-io to read from a file or do I have to read my data and then I can use fast-io for rapid read writing once in ram?
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2020-11-29T20:35:46Z phoe: fast-io creates this buffer structure
2020-11-29T20:35:55Z phoe: it has an underlying stream
2020-11-29T20:36:16Z phoe: so you can create a fast-io buffer from a stream and then use fast-io read functions on that buffer object
2020-11-29T20:36:42Z Josh_2: See thats what I tried but I guess I was doing it wrong
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2020-11-29T20:37:18Z Josh_2: I was just getting 0 each fast-read-byte
2020-11-29T20:37:31Z phoe: https://github.com/rpav/fast-io#streams ?
2020-11-29T20:39:22Z johnjay: scymtym: ah i realize the ambiguity in what I said
2020-11-29T20:39:34Z johnjay: I meant functional as in mostly bug free, not functional programming
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2020-11-29T20:40:24Z Josh_2: phoe: but I create a stream using (with-open-file ..)
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2020-11-29T20:41:16Z phoe: oh wait a second
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2020-11-29T20:41:28Z phoe: then (make-input-buffer :stream s) should work well
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2020-11-29T20:45:02Z scymtym: johnjay: i see. McCLIM is not mostly bug free, but getting better
2020-11-29T20:45:35Z Josh_2: phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2176#2176
2020-11-29T20:45:42Z Josh_2: I just get two large arrays of 0's
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2020-11-29T20:51:37Z phoe: Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2177#2177
2020-11-29T20:52:48Z phoe: hmmmmmm
2020-11-29T20:52:57Z phoe: I am too sleepy to properly factor with-fast-input in there
2020-11-29T20:53:09Z Josh_2: hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
2020-11-29T20:53:12Z Josh_2: one sec
2020-11-29T20:54:39Z Josh_2: yay!
2020-11-29T20:54:49Z phoe: :O
2020-11-29T20:54:52Z Josh_2: doing it how you have worked!
2020-11-29T20:54:55Z Josh_2: Thanks phoe
2020-11-29T20:55:06Z phoe: yay! I still remember something from fast-io
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2020-11-29T21:00:51Z Josh_2: well interestingly enough, fast-io is about twice as slow as just using read-byte
2020-11-29T21:00:56Z Josh_2: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-11-29T21:01:12Z phoe: maybe we're still using it wrong
2020-11-29T21:01:31Z phoe: I don't remember what exactly is required to make it properly fast
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2020-11-29T21:02:03Z Josh_2: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2178#2178
2020-11-29T21:02:10Z Josh_2: I have never used it before so this is a first for me
2020-11-29T21:02:52Z phoe: instead of map-into, try fast-read-sequence
2020-11-29T21:03:35Z Josh_2: wew
2020-11-29T21:03:45Z phoe: does this change things?
2020-11-29T21:03:52Z Josh_2: braaaaah
2020-11-29T21:04:02Z Josh_2: thats so fast it seems wrong...
2020-11-29T21:04:36Z phoe: good
2020-11-29T21:04:41Z Josh_2: instead of taking 17 seconds it takes .2...
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2020-11-29T21:05:57Z Josh_2: wew
2020-11-29T21:06:08Z Josh_2: Thats kinda unreal
2020-11-29T21:06:52Z phoe: I think that's what happens when sequence reading is not dominated by function call overhead
2020-11-29T21:07:58Z Josh_2: turns out I've been reading files (when not using alexandria) wrong this entire time
2020-11-29T21:08:21Z phoe: not really wrong per se
2020-11-29T21:08:33Z phoe: just possibly in a slow way
2020-11-29T21:08:42Z Josh_2: well in this case I have used osicat to determine the size of the file before hand
2020-11-29T21:08:52Z Josh_2: instead of just looping until EOF
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2020-11-29T21:09:12Z Josh_2: normal read-sequence is faster than the fast-io
2020-11-29T21:09:28Z phoe: ooooooh
2020-11-29T21:09:41Z phoe: welp
2020-11-29T21:10:17Z Josh_2: .226  to .262 (fast-io), not much difference but still
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2020-11-29T21:12:58Z Josh_2: To be fair to fast-io when reading the same file 1000x I reckon my drive will be the bottle neck
2020-11-29T21:18:54Z pve: Josh_2: I believe cl:file-length will also give you the file size.
2020-11-29T21:22:23Z Josh_2: Yes, from a stream
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2020-11-29T23:11:07Z jcowan: I'd like to see a use case where a condition type directly inherits from more than one condition supertype.  Can anyone think of one?
2020-11-29T23:11:59Z phoe: jcowan: simple-warning
2020-11-29T23:12:11Z phoe: (define-condition simple-warning (warning simple-condition) ())
2020-11-29T23:12:27Z phoe: simple-error, simple-control-error, simple-program-error, simple-reader-error, ...
2020-11-29T23:12:57Z phoe: for an application named FOO, (define foo-condition () ()) and then (define foo-error (error foo-condition) ()) (define specific-foo-error (foo-error) (...))
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2020-11-29T23:13:23Z phoe: these are the two most obvious ones I can think of, the first one being actually mandated by the CL standard
2020-11-29T23:13:47Z jcowan: Okay, let me reformulate.  Where neither of the direct supertypes are generic ones like simple-condition.
2020-11-29T23:14:47Z MichaelRaskin: nfs-condition could plausibly be a subtype of both network and filesystem condition
2020-11-29T23:14:53Z phoe: I guess it's like with classes; whenever you'd otherwise need multiple inheritance for whatever reason..
2020-11-29T23:15:18Z phoe: so wherever e.g. mixin classes^Wcondition types come into play
2020-11-29T23:16:02Z phoe: more from the standard, reader-error is both a parse-error and a stream-error
2020-11-29T23:17:22Z jcowan: MichaelRaskin: It seems to me that a NFS condition could be either a network or a filesystem condition, but hardly both.  If you get a network error, you have no access to the file system, ugye?
2020-11-29T23:17:45Z phoe: (define-condition person-not-allowed-into-building (person-error building-error) ()) and such
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2020-11-29T23:18:17Z MichaelRaskin: jcowan: you get a network error, and you get failed read
2020-11-29T23:18:23Z MichaelRaskin: From a file
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2020-11-29T23:32:49Z jcowan: Ah, thanks.  Excellent point.
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2020-11-30T02:07:01Z thmprover: Random question: is there any strong consensus about package-name and directory structure? E.g., in Clojure, each namespace has its name be the file name, and subdirectory as prefix to namespace...does Common Lisp informally do likewise? Or is it all pushed in one giant package?
2020-11-30T02:07:38Z no-defun-allowed: It highly depends.
2020-11-30T02:08:00Z no-defun-allowed: But the alternative, from experience, is "giant files".
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2020-11-30T02:10:29Z no-defun-allowed: In my implementation of Netfarm, there are 30 files, each about 50-70 LOC, in one package. There are about 80 exported symbols from memory.
2020-11-30T02:11:55Z PuercoPop: thmprover: There is no strong consensus, but most people use one package per project. There is a one package per file style supported by ASDF and some people do you prefer it. That style is the most similar to the one you'll find in Clojure.
2020-11-30T02:13:16Z no-defun-allowed: Another interesting example is a CLIM implementation; there are many files with (in-package :clim-internals), but they export symbols in some other packages (CLIM, CLIM-EXTENSIONS, etc). And my networking code and Petalisp have several modules, each with a package.
2020-11-30T02:14:09Z thmprover: I've just been sweeping my quasi-CAS into a ./math/ subdirectory of my project, it *feels* natural to include ".math." as part of the package name, but that's a Clojure habit I've acquired
2020-11-30T02:14:57Z PuercoPop: thmprover: You do you boo!
2020-11-30T02:16:35Z no-defun-allowed: The Java teacher at this university told us that you name the files the same name as the classes so that you can always find the implementation of a class without using a search tool. Now, without using a search tool, how do I find the method  toUpperCase in java/lang/String.java?
2020-11-30T02:16:45Z no-defun-allowed: But do whatever suits you and your design, really.
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2020-11-30T02:24:43Z thmprover: One more question: what conventions are there for docstrings? I infer from the few examples given that UPPERCASE is used for function parameters, and when referring to other functions in my own codebase I defined I should wrap the `function-name' in quotes (like thus).
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2020-11-30T02:26:53Z no-defun-allowed: I've always written parameters and function names upcased, or as normal if some noun matches the name of a parameter, eg (defun not-actually-subseq (sequence start end) "Return the contents of a sequence from the start to end positions" ...)
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2020-11-30T04:07:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-11-30T04:19:11Z beach: thmprover: I find it best to have one directory, one package, and one ASDF system definition per *module*.  Such a module can have several source files with one and the same initial IN-PACKAGE form.
2020-11-30T04:20:10Z beach: This way, another module can "use" another module by adding its system name to the list of dependencies in its own ASDF system definition.
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2020-11-30T04:22:47Z beach: I have yet to see any advantages of a package per file.  Every time it is brought up, I learn about contortions that are needed in order to avoid a single huge file for the module or a proliferation of packages that have no semantic meaning.
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2020-11-30T04:27:00Z oni-on-ion: back in the day afaiu, more code was per .lisp file
2020-11-30T04:28:49Z thmprover: beach: that is a sound and reasonable design decision. The problem I have is the modules are all really tightly coupled together.
2020-11-30T04:29:08Z beach: Then they aren't "modules".
2020-11-30T04:30:06Z beach: By definition a "module" has a very small interface to the outside world compared to its implementation.
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2020-11-30T04:31:41Z beach: Ousterhout (I think it was him)  calls them "deep" modules.  He uses the image of a rectangle with constant area representing the code size, and the top edge representing the interface.
2020-11-30T04:32:02Z beach: So you want your rectangle to be deep and narrow.
2020-11-30T04:32:35Z thmprover: Yeah, the program is a quasi-CAS with applications to physics (analytical mechanics and field theory), which makes it hard to separate out the code into modules. Ironically, it's for the same reason people called this stuff "beautiful" for a couple centuries...
2020-11-30T04:35:32Z thmprover: I'm sure it's going to be clearer as I continue plugging along, because right now my goals are fuzzy ("do science"). Later, after I have more infrastructure set up, it will become clearer (e.g., "handle celestial mechanics") and, hopefully, even clearer as I progress.
2020-11-30T04:36:05Z beach: How is your system different from Maxima?
2020-11-30T04:36:12Z oni-on-ion: i like this metaphor imagery
2020-11-30T04:36:30Z beach: thmprover: Or is it just that you want to implement this stuff in order to learn?
2020-11-30T04:36:42Z beach: oni-on-ion: Yes, not bad at all.
2020-11-30T04:37:39Z thmprover: beach: isn't Maxima exclusively a CAS? I was hoping to write some GOFAI to do science, in the sense of answering questions and solving problems (not doing any labwork, though).
2020-11-30T04:37:47Z oni-on-ion: lisp+repl is a good platform for having a scratch file, like a pottery floor. then seperate/order stuff out as things solidify
2020-11-30T04:40:15Z beach: thmprover: I am not a domain expert so you may very well be right.
2020-11-30T04:41:27Z no-defun-allowed: You can write list processing and structure processing programs in Maxima, but the evaluation model is a bit wonky.
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2020-11-30T04:45:19Z thmprover: I'll look at Maxima as a library, but the main goal is to have a Lispy Leibniz AI do science. Gordon Novak has a simple Lisp program that's a proof-of-concept of simple problems (you can try it online https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/novak/cgi/physdemod.cgi).
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2020-11-30T04:50:40Z thmprover: Egads, it's late, time for bed. Good night, all!
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2020-11-30T06:00:17Z oni-on-ion: how come defvar cannot provide both functionality of itself, as well as defparameter ?
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2020-11-30T06:02:13Z beach: Because the two have contradictory behavior?
2020-11-30T06:02:49Z beach: You would need a keyword parameter then, like :SET-IF-BOUND.
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2020-11-30T06:06:38Z oni-on-ion: ahh; i would have figured that defparam with no second arg could act as defvar
2020-11-30T06:06:41Z oni-on-ion naive 
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2020-11-30T06:42:07Z loke[m]: phoe: Beach suggested a talk about maxima/climaxima. Would that be of interest?
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2020-11-30T06:58:19Z beach: I am trying to figure out under which circumstances DEFMETHOD calls ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION, and which what arguments.
2020-11-30T07:00:16Z beach: DEFMETHOD can't blindly call ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION because it would need to supply some :LAMBDA-LIST keyword argument, and if it just supplies its own (with specializers and default arguments removed) then the generic function will be reinitialized without any reason.
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2020-11-30T07:01:06Z beach: As long as the lambda lists are congruent, DEFMETHOD should at least avoid passing a different lambda list to ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION.
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2020-11-30T07:02:26Z beach: But should DEFMETHOD also check the METHOD-CLASS?
2020-11-30T07:03:13Z beach: I guess DEFMETHOD can just call ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION and rely on it to either reinitialize or signal an error.
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2020-11-30T07:06:51Z beach: I think I need to re-read the MOP section about initialization of generic-function metaobjects.
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2020-11-30T07:18:56Z beach: Nothing special there.  Let me check ADD-METHOD.
2020-11-30T07:20:13Z beach: Nothing special there either.
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2020-11-30T07:21:41Z beach: Does that mean that it's OK for a generic function to have methods of different classes?
2020-11-30T07:22:15Z beach: If so, DEFMETHOD should not pass the :METHOD-CLASS keyword argument to ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION either.
2020-11-30T07:22:19Z no-defun-allowed: Does the MOP require accessor methods to be of a different class?
2020-11-30T07:22:33Z beach: I don't think so.
2020-11-30T07:22:38Z beach: But the typically are.
2020-11-30T07:23:20Z beach: I mean, nothing prevents you from doing (defmethod thing ((x some-class)) (slot-value x '%thing))
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2020-11-30T07:23:55Z no-defun-allowed: standard-accessor-method?
2020-11-30T07:24:32Z beach: Yes, standard-reader-method and standard-writer-method are the ones used by the :READER/:WRITER/:ACCESSOR slot options.
2020-11-30T07:24:45Z beach: ... typically.
2020-11-30T07:24:56Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, but accessor methods have the slot definition accessible with accessor-method-slot-definition.
2020-11-30T07:25:05Z beach: Correct.
2020-11-30T07:25:30Z beach: That fact means that we can optimize the slot access.
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2020-11-30T07:26:01Z beach: Instead of going through SLOT-VALUE it is often possible to do STANDARD-INSTANCE-ACCESS instead.
2020-11-30T07:26:04Z no-defun-allowed: So (defgeneric foo (object)) (defmethod foo ((object number)) object) (defclass bar () ((baz :reader foo))) would create a generic function FOO with one STANDARD-METHOD and one STANDARD-READER-METHOD.
2020-11-30T07:26:33Z beach: Sounds right.
2020-11-30T07:27:24Z no-defun-allowed: So that generic function would require having methods of different classes.
2020-11-30T07:28:01Z beach: True, but STANDARD-READER-METHOD is a subclass of STANDARD-METHOD.
2020-11-30T07:28:25Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed.
2020-11-30T07:29:18Z beach: I guess I wasn't clear about that.  I meant if you evaluate a DEFMETHOD with a class that is not a subclass of the METHOD-CLASS of the generic function in question.
2020-11-30T07:29:39Z no-defun-allowed: I see what you mean now.
2020-11-30T07:29:42Z beach: I think that is acceptable, actually.
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2020-11-30T07:30:18Z beach: I think the METHOD-CLASS just provides the default when no explicit method class is indicated to DEFMETHOD.
2020-11-30T07:30:36Z no-defun-allowed: That makes sense to me.
2020-11-30T07:31:20Z beach: And, if so, the :METHOD-CLASS keyword argument should not be passed from DEFMETHOD to ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION when the generic function already exists.
2020-11-30T07:32:58Z phoe: loke[m]: very yes
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2020-11-30T07:37:32Z beach: Hmm, wait!  So maybe DEFMETHOD should not call ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION at all if the generic function already exists.
2020-11-30T07:37:46Z beach: That makes a lot of sense actually.
2020-11-30T07:38:02Z beach: It should just check that the lambda lists are congruent.
2020-11-30T07:38:51Z beach: I am saying that, because there is no information in the DEFMETHOD form that would justify a reinitialization of the generic function.
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2020-11-30T07:47:27Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Thanks for talking this over with me.
2020-11-30T07:47:37Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
2020-11-30T07:48:52Z beach: Does my conclusion make sense?
2020-11-30T07:50:17Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I think so.
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2020-11-30T07:50:38Z beach: Great!  I'll go with that and see what happens.
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2020-11-30T09:38:23Z pve: Hi! So reading the logs I learn about "standard-instance-access". I should probably prefer that over slot-value in my accessor functions. I can't seem to find a function in the MOP that lets me look up a slot-definition by name. Do I need to go through "class-slots" to find it?
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2020-11-30T09:39:09Z pve: (the goal is to get the slot-definition-location)
2020-11-30T09:40:17Z phoe: pve: there is a GF named slot-definition-location
2020-11-30T09:40:33Z phoe: you need to feed it the effective slot definition object
2020-11-30T09:41:01Z pve: phoe: Yes, I know. I was asking if I can look up the definition by name.
2020-11-30T09:41:40Z pve: or if I need to "find" it from the list returned by "class-slots".
2020-11-30T09:41:53Z phoe: likely, yes, you need to find it
2020-11-30T09:42:04Z phoe: class-slots returns a list of ESDs
2020-11-30T09:42:11Z pve: Alright, that's fine.
2020-11-30T09:42:13Z pve: thanks
2020-11-30T09:43:57Z beach: pve: phoe is right (of course).  But you need to respect the conditions associated with STANDARD-INSTANCE-ACCESS.
2020-11-30T09:44:25Z pve: beach: Yes, I was wondering about that.
2020-11-30T09:45:05Z beach: pve: In particular, a slot with a certain name can have different locations in instances of different classes.
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2020-11-30T09:45:59Z pve: I would have to look up the location for every accessor separately.
2020-11-30T09:46:07Z pve: for each class
2020-11-30T09:46:27Z beach: Well, typically that is handled in COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-METHOD or thereabouts.
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2020-11-30T09:46:55Z beach: Once the class effective slots are known, the location of each one is also known.
2020-11-30T09:48:54Z pve: beach: Ok, and if the class is redefined, the old locations are no longer necessarily valid?
2020-11-30T09:49:02Z phoe: yes
2020-11-30T09:49:03Z beach: Correct.
2020-11-30T09:49:08Z pve: great
2020-11-30T09:49:28Z beach: So, for example, in SICL, the call history of a generic function will have an entry for each combination of exact argument classes, and the locations are unique for such an entry.
2020-11-30T09:49:46Z beach: But then, if a class is redefined, entries that depend on that class are removed.
2020-11-30T09:49:49Z phoe: if redefining a class munges the slots in any way, then the instance is obsolete and should not be accessed via s-i-a
2020-11-30T09:50:05Z phoe: redefining a class in a way that doesn't change its slots in any way is fine.
2020-11-30T09:50:27Z phoe: so e.g. changing the documentation string in (:documentation "...")
2020-11-30T09:50:57Z phoe: or, AFAIK, adding/removing accessors from individual slot definitions.
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2020-11-30T09:53:33Z pve: can an obsolete instance be made up-to-date by reinitializing it?
2020-11-30T09:53:56Z phoe: hmmmmm
2020-11-30T09:53:59Z beach: I don't think so.
2020-11-30T09:54:08Z phoe: clhs make-instances-obsolete
2020-11-30T09:54:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_i_1.htm
2020-11-30T09:54:16Z phoe: "During updating, the generic function update-instance-for-redefined-class will be invoked."
2020-11-30T09:54:21Z beach: In fact, passing an obsolete instance to any generic function should trigger the update.
2020-11-30T09:55:05Z pve: oh, so I'm really looking UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-REDEFINED-CLASS?
2020-11-30T09:55:09Z pve: looking for
2020-11-30T09:55:11Z phoe: yes, but is there a facility in CL that explicitly updates an instance?
2020-11-30T09:55:19Z phoe: u-i-f-r-c is not supposed to be directly called by programmers
2020-11-30T09:55:23Z phoe: well then, what is?
2020-11-30T09:55:34Z beach: Yes, but it should be handled automatically, unless you are creating your own Common Lisp implementation of course.
2020-11-30T09:55:43Z phoe: beach: he kinda is
2020-11-30T09:55:52Z beach: Ah.
2020-11-30T09:55:52Z phoe: he's working on a Smalltalk implementation in CL, which is similar enough
2020-11-30T09:55:58Z beach: Oh, now I remember.
2020-11-30T09:56:38Z scymtym: phoe: MAKE-INSTANCES-OBSOLETE
2020-11-30T09:57:27Z pve: hmm I need to think about this.. at this point the accessors are using slot-value, and it works fine. But using standard-instance-access would be nice too.
2020-11-30T09:57:37Z phoe: scymtym: no no, this makes an instance obsolete
2020-11-30T09:57:48Z phoe: what makes an obsolete instance non-obsolete?
2020-11-30T09:58:08Z scymtym: phoe: oh, i see. didn't read carefully enough
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2020-11-30T10:15:46Z pve: phoe: you make it sound so serious, my implementation is anything but :)
2020-11-30T10:16:06Z adlai: it does not trigger updating, either.
2020-11-30T10:16:17Z adlai: only marks obsoletion.
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2020-11-30T10:21:14Z phoe: pve: it's the most advanced Smalltalk-in-CL implementation that I'm aware of!
2020-11-30T10:25:27Z pve: hehe
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2020-11-30T12:27:00Z gendl: mfiano: so you didn't use checkout.js in your stripe api, correct?
2020-11-30T12:27:43Z gendl: you were always using the full-blown api where you do the whole UI by yourself and call the stripe api explicitly
2020-11-30T12:27:55Z jmercouris: let's say I have the following (list 0 1 1 1 2 2 3) and I want to return a list with all of the matching elements like this (list (list 0) (list 1 1 1) (list 2 2) (list 3))
2020-11-30T12:28:02Z jmercouris: what is a good way to do this?
2020-11-30T12:28:11Z jmercouris: so far I thought of keeping a "counter" and incrementing all matches
2020-11-30T12:28:22Z jmercouris: but that is a rather inefficient way, as I will have to traverse the list multiple times
2020-11-30T12:28:40Z jmercouris: my idea was: find all 0, find all 1, find all 2, etc...
2020-11-30T12:28:47Z adlai: is it guaranteed unsigned-byte monotonic?
2020-11-30T12:28:54Z jmercouris: there is no guarantee
2020-11-30T12:29:04Z jmercouris: only that I want to group matching elements by some predicate
2020-11-30T12:29:16Z adlai: ah, that is the exact problem that failed me a "job interview" around age sixteen.
2020-11-30T12:29:19Z jmercouris: the predicate being #'eql i nthis case
2020-11-30T12:29:34Z adlai began thinking about a general case instead of "just use a matrix, bro"
2020-11-30T12:29:37Z flip214: jmercouris: how about counting equal elements, eg. into a hash-table?
2020-11-30T12:29:50Z flip214: a list of identical things is possible as good as the thing and the count
2020-11-30T12:29:51Z jmercouris: flip214: perfect!
2020-11-30T12:30:06Z jmercouris: yes, I've even done that exact same thing elsewhere in the codebase!
2020-11-30T12:30:12Z jmercouris: I had forgotten about it, thank you
2020-11-30T12:30:17Z flip214: you're welcome
2020-11-30T12:30:28Z adlai: for bonus points, destructively reuse the conses of the original list, and dynamic-extent the hashtable :)
2020-11-30T12:30:44Z jmercouris: this is not an interview question, but anyways :-D
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2020-11-30T12:38:55Z jmercouris: here is what I came up with: http://dpaste.com/5E4B32RM6
2020-11-30T12:39:00Z jmercouris: any better way to express it?
2020-11-30T12:40:28Z phoe: (let ((result (make-hash-table))) (loop for x in (list 0 1 2 3 4 4 4 5) do (push x (gethash x result '()))) (alexandria:hash-table-values result))
2020-11-30T12:40:33Z phoe: no need to append if you can push
2020-11-30T12:42:30Z phoe: also similar: (serapeum:frequencies '(0 1 2 3 4 4 4 5))
2020-11-30T12:42:36Z jmercouris: a good point, I should have pushed!
2020-11-30T12:43:07Z phoe: it gives you a hashtable where seq elements are keys and their counts are values
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2020-11-30T12:43:23Z jmercouris: that won't work for me
2020-11-30T12:43:25Z jmercouris: I'm afraid
2020-11-30T12:43:32Z jmercouris: I am posting a really simplified version of my problem here
2020-11-30T12:43:39Z phoe: yes, I assume that your values are more complex
2020-11-30T12:43:49Z phoe: in this case the push solution will work the best
2020-11-30T12:44:02Z jmercouris: indeed, thanks phoe
2020-11-30T12:44:09Z phoe: <3
2020-11-30T12:44:23Z adlai: if there is no guarantee that the test predicate is #'eql, then you can't use a histogram function
2020-11-30T12:45:05Z adlai interprets jmercouris's original example as including the #'eq elements from the original list
2020-11-30T12:45:39Z jmercouris: it does actually include the elements from the original list, yes
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2020-11-30T13:32:15Z Josh_2: afternoon
2020-11-30T13:32:47Z phoe: heyyyy
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2020-11-30T15:22:51Z phoe: OK, the wasm talk is bound to happen in like 98 minutes from now
2020-11-30T15:23:24Z beach: By webcam?
2020-11-30T15:23:30Z phoe: by webcam + slides
2020-11-30T15:23:36Z beach: And is it public?
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2020-11-30T15:23:50Z Gnuxie[m]: Wait, you're actually talking to them about control flow?
2020-11-30T15:23:56Z phoe: I have no idea; the link to the zoom meeting is there on the website
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2020-11-30T15:24:04Z phoe: Gnuxie[m]: yes, blame ioa for that
2020-11-30T15:24:12Z beach: phoe: Good luck!
2020-11-30T15:24:14Z Gnuxie[m]: Epic
2020-11-30T15:24:28Z aeth: phoe: how does it feel to be the public face of Common Lisp?
2020-11-30T15:24:43Z Gnuxie[m]: Lol
2020-11-30T15:24:46Z phoe: aeth: on one hand I hope that my work is useful
2020-11-30T15:24:49Z pfdietz: Where is this talk?
2020-11-30T15:24:49Z minion: pfdietz, memo from phoe: I have some people who are interested in your work on random-testing the SBCL compiler and the techniques you used and the effects that it had and the bugs that it uncovered; is there any published code/research that I should link them to?
2020-11-30T15:24:49Z minion: pfdietz, memo from phoe: also, if you ever have the time to prepare and speak about it, I would love to listen to this on an Online Lisp Meeting someday (and so would these people).
2020-11-30T15:24:55Z aeth: heh, maybe I should've asked that after the talk so you didn't get too nervous
2020-11-30T15:25:08Z phoe: on the other I am absolutely fidgetful inside
2020-11-30T15:25:45Z pfdietz: phoe: the only published work is the ansi-tests paper back at ILC 2005
2020-11-30T15:25:46Z phoe: pfdietz: Zoom; the link is theoretically public and visible at https://github.com/phoe-trash/meetings/blob/master/stack/2020/SG-11-30.md but I have no idea how the wasm people are going to react if they suddenly get a bunch of curious lispers watching the thing
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2020-11-30T15:26:06Z travv0: lol
2020-11-30T15:26:38Z aeth: pfdietz: re the memo... wow, the ANSI test suite is huge... https://github.com/pfdietz/ansi-test
2020-11-30T15:26:43Z travv0: the floodgates are open now
2020-11-30T15:26:48Z phoe: aeth: yes, and it's marvelous because of that
2020-11-30T15:27:36Z phoe: travv0: I explicitly do not say that other people should join; I'm just pointing out that the meeting link is public, which might or might not be intentional - likely the latter
2020-11-30T15:28:32Z travv0: well good luck with the talk
2020-11-30T15:28:37Z phoe: thanks
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2020-11-30T15:29:11Z aeth: Hmmm... I wonder if I should try to programmatically convert the ANSI Common Lisp test files to test Airship Scheme CL compatibility. In theory, the semantics should be preserved where they make sense, even though in practice, many things (e.g. the macros like LOOP) would require reimplementations...
2020-11-30T15:30:10Z aeth: The only hard parts would be things that take advantage of the lisp-2 nature of CL while naming variables...
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2020-11-30T15:35:51Z pfdietz: ansi-tests is really a combination of two things that should be separated: the tests traceable to specific parts of the spec, and the random testing infrastructure (which itself is composed of several different approaches.)
2020-11-30T15:36:49Z aeth: Hmmm... I actually wonder if the easiest way to use ansi-tests might be to make the meme a reality and implement CL in Scheme in CL...
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2020-11-30T15:37:32Z pfdietz: The random tests come in three main flavors:  generation of random integer-value forms to test the compiler, "random type prop" types that try to test type inference on small functions, and a mutational testing scheme that stitches together fragments of lisp code from public lisp projects to try to get the SBCL compiler to throw errors (this last
2020-11-30T15:37:32Z pfdietz: part is really only useful on SBCL.)
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2020-11-30T15:37:40Z phoe: aeth: is the inverse of Airship Scheme is going to be Ground Vehicle Common Lisp?
2020-11-30T15:38:02Z pfdietz: Err, "random type prop" *tests*
2020-11-30T15:38:18Z phoe: s/is//
2020-11-30T15:38:42Z aeth: phoe: no, the inverse would be some form of submarine.
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2020-11-30T15:39:58Z aeth: The point of implementing CL in Scheme in CL, of course, would be to (1) ensure that the semantics of the functions are preserved and (2) ensure that the reimplemented macros (at the very least, the iteration ones) are semantically identical.
2020-11-30T15:40:13Z aeth: It would otherwise just lose performance and from the outside look just like a meme.
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2020-11-30T15:42:28Z phoe: and so you can run CL applications on Scheme and therefore verify the intermediate Scheme layer
2020-11-30T15:42:44Z phoe: sounds like a good enough use case
2020-11-30T15:42:51Z pfdietz: Analogy generator failed on sea:submarin :: land:?       https://boredhumans.com/analogy_generator.php
2020-11-30T15:43:01Z pfdietz: submarine
2020-11-30T15:43:34Z jcowan: Do the Scheme tests pass yet?
2020-11-30T15:44:31Z aeth: jcowan: Airship Scheme? It passes the first test, i.e. it reads the test file. This was fairly non-trivial.
2020-11-30T15:44:46Z aeth: Slower than expected, but I wanted to do it a little piece at a time.
2020-11-30T15:45:08Z pfdietz: I'm afraid I got a bit snippy on r/scheme when someone complained about all the funcalls in Common Lisp.    If you look at quicklisp, about 0.4% of lines have a funcall on them.   Granted, Scheme-style Common Lisp would have more.
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2020-11-30T15:45:23Z aeth: I probably could've worked through the reader in a few days if I was willing to sacrifice quality.
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2020-11-30T15:46:06Z aeth: pfdietz: I saw that and nobody got that right... You don't use funcalls for FP, you use it for higher-order-functions, which are just a subset of FP. And CLers use a lot of higher-order-functions, but usually ones that are preexisting, like map/mapcar.
2020-11-30T15:47:39Z aeth: jcowan: If I added semantics to define, I could probably get some minimal Scheme-like going already.
2020-11-30T15:48:54Z flip214: phoe: this presentation is great! a bit too many repeated pages, and still okay
2020-11-30T15:49:18Z phoe: flip214: you mean the slides I linked in the PR?
2020-11-30T15:49:25Z aeth: jcowan: As it stands, I can do this and it will read because I'm only missing #1= and #1# labels (like in the /topic here) in the reader: (with-open-file (s #P"~/git/other/no-backup/chibi-scheme/tests/r7rs-tests.scm") (scheme-read s))
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2020-11-30T15:49:54Z aeth: (That test file has them, but only in literal strings)
2020-11-30T15:49:58Z phoe: I flip* through these slides real quick to animate their contents; 240 slides took me like 50 minutes to go through on the last Online Lisp Meeting
2020-11-30T15:50:02Z phoe: *pun not intended
2020-11-30T15:50:28Z flip214: phoe: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/phoe-trash/meetings/master/stack/2020/presentations/2020-11-30-herda-control-flow-in-common-lisp.pdf
2020-11-30T15:50:51Z phoe: yes, these are the slides I'll use
2020-11-30T15:51:01Z phoe: 95% scavenged from the last OLM
2020-11-30T15:51:13Z phoe: or maybe the last OLM was scavenged from those slides?... I don't know anymore
2020-11-30T15:51:19Z flip214: phoe: please like the video
2020-11-30T15:51:23Z flip214: *link
2020-11-30T15:51:32Z Josh_2: Did you swap any thinks for thonks?
2020-11-30T15:51:33Z phoe: flip214: from the wasm meeting? there won't be one, it will not be recorded
2020-11-30T15:51:35Z phoe: Josh_2: no
2020-11-30T15:51:39Z Josh_2: ah shame
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2020-11-30T15:51:59Z flip214: I haven't watched a single minute from ELS 2020 yet, but hope persists
2020-11-30T15:52:13Z phoe: flip214: it's worth it! some of these talks were simply amazing
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2020-11-30T15:52:36Z flip214: phoe: I can guess from the years before...
2020-11-30T15:52:41Z phoe: I remember heisig's greenscreen as the greatest non-strictly-technical thing of ELS 2020
2020-11-30T15:53:07Z flip214: but unless time is really reserved by booking a hotel, it's hard to find it again later on
2020-11-30T15:53:20Z phoe: yes
2020-11-30T15:54:11Z flip214: perhaps 2022 there'll be a real ELS again... I could try to get there 3 days early and watch 2020 and 2021 ;/
2020-11-30T15:54:23Z phoe: that's a Lisp marathon in the making :O
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2020-11-30T15:59:57Z pfdietz: I am sad that COVID-19 kept me from physically attending ELS this year.
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2020-11-30T16:00:33Z phoe: pfdietz: we all are
2020-11-30T16:00:42Z phoe: we got a virtual ELS this year though
2020-11-30T16:00:49Z edgar-rft: have you tried to attend chemically?
2020-11-30T16:01:32Z phoe: and the form which ELS took this year gave me an idea for Online Lisp Meetings, so not all related to this year's covid situation is sad
2020-11-30T16:03:37Z aeth: I guess ELS 2021 is either going to be online again or is going to be delayed until the fall. Do we know which one?
2020-11-30T16:05:01Z phoe: aeth: just mailed Didier about it.
2020-11-30T16:07:07Z aeth: It's possible that they're going to wait until closer to the event to decide whether it's online or not, but realistically speaking, until the vaccines are widespread, restrictions will remain in place, i.e. until some point in the middle of the spring
2020-11-30T16:07:27Z ioa: phoe, the stacks subgroup meeting is only for WebAssembly CG members
2020-11-30T16:08:43Z ioa: Oh I see they put the link on the meeting notes - strange, perhaps it is open after all.
2020-11-30T16:08:51Z phoe: ioa: I know, it's confusing to me!
2020-11-30T16:09:05Z phoe: maybe should be clarified
2020-11-30T16:12:04Z beach: phoe: As I recall, in your OLM talk, you did not emphasize the need for special variables.  But I guess the WASM people need to understand that.
2020-11-30T16:12:28Z ioa: beach I agree
2020-11-30T16:12:30Z phoe: beach: I did not emphasize it because dynamic variables can be implemented using unwind-protect
2020-11-30T16:12:36Z phoe: so it's not *strictly* necessary
2020-11-30T16:12:41Z beach: Fair enough.
2020-11-30T16:12:52Z phoe: but yes, one of the final slides that are exclusive for the WASM version of the talk mention dynavar support
2020-11-30T16:13:00Z phoe: s/mention/mentions/
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2020-11-30T16:14:38Z ioa: cool!
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2020-11-30T16:24:31Z jcowan: Is there a program that can validate a fully macroexpanded CL program short of compiling it?
2020-11-30T16:24:48Z phoe: validate, as in?
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2020-11-30T16:25:09Z phoe: that it will compile without any warnings and/or errors on a given compiler?
2020-11-30T16:25:37Z phoe: that it will return without signaling an error? (that's already halting problem territory)
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2020-11-30T16:33:16Z ioa: phoe Wasm is typed and it's type validated before it runs
2020-11-30T16:34:13Z ioa: jcowan, wasm doesn't even have non-local returns yet
2020-11-30T16:34:50Z beach: ioa: Still, there are things that can't be tested unless the language is not Turning complete.
2020-11-30T16:35:16Z beach: s/tested/validated/
2020-11-30T16:35:16Z jcowan: That it will compile without any errors on a compiler that accepts all programs (modulo implementaiton limits) that are valid according to the ANS.
2020-11-30T16:36:04Z phoe: I think that the only such validator is a Common Lisp compiler
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2020-11-30T16:36:32Z Bike: "validity" would probably include type declarations being accurate, right? since the effects are UB otherwise? so you can probably do something something satisfies and make problems
2020-11-30T16:36:48Z beach: I am pretty sure there are cases where it can't be checked statically whether a program is conforming.
2020-11-30T16:36:49Z phoe: macroexpanding everything already requires a code walker
2020-11-30T16:37:14Z Bike: (the nil (final-twin-prime)) or something
2020-11-30T16:37:26Z beach: Stuff like that.
2020-11-30T16:37:49Z phoe: Bike: wait a second, inside (the nil X) the X is guaranteed to... uh... never return?
2020-11-30T16:37:55Z Bike: probably
2020-11-30T16:38:02Z Bike: i don't think there are any common programs to do validation, anyway
2020-11-30T16:38:09Z Bike: there's ACL2 but that's a subset or something
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2020-11-30T16:40:35Z Bike: phoe: this is useful in that e.g. ERROR can be declared to have a return type of NIL, and from ther ea compiler can derive that (if (integerp x) (1+ x) (error ...)) has type integer, and such things
2020-11-30T16:41:01Z phoe: Bike: yes, I realized that
2020-11-30T16:41:35Z phoe: the functions ERROR and INVOKE-DEBUGGER have return type NIL because of their contracts
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2020-11-30T16:42:23Z jcowan: phoe: Compilers are generally understood to generate code; in addition, they don't necessarily enforce all the rules of the spec.  What I want is a linter.
2020-11-30T16:42:45Z jcowan: At least the correctness part of a linter; I don't care about unidiomatic code.
2020-11-30T16:42:51Z lotuseater: Bike: ACL2 is meant to be functional and for this also side-effect-free
2020-11-30T16:42:53Z phoe: jcowan: SBCL's #'CL:COMPILE is the best linter I am aware of
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2020-11-30T16:42:58Z Bike: yeah, i don't think we have a linter.
2020-11-30T16:43:12Z mseddon: sbcl does a pretty good job at keeping me honest tbf.
2020-11-30T16:43:20Z phoe: it also happens to be a compiler, but yeah, it is going to tell you if the code it gets doesn't conform
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2020-11-30T16:44:12Z jcowan: Okay, thanks.
2020-11-30T16:44:32Z phoe: (defun valid-lisp-p (form) (not (nth-value 2 (compile nil `(lambda () ,form))))) or something
2020-11-30T16:44:34Z mseddon: well yeah. and honestly 'linting' is best served BY a compiler, since it has all the information to hand and has done significant analysis.
2020-11-30T16:44:36Z beach: jcowan: Still, what you describe is not generally possible.
2020-11-30T16:45:07Z beach: jcowan: So you need some approximate model.
2020-11-30T16:45:52Z phoe: OK, time to connect to Zoom; keep your fingers crossed, and please don't connect yourself since it seems that this meeting is *not* public
2020-11-30T16:46:05Z beach: Good luck!
2020-11-30T16:46:14Z phoe bows, disappears
2020-11-30T16:46:36Z phoe: I'll attempt to lure people to heisig's Jitsi instance for some chat afterwards; I'll tell you if that's successful
2020-11-30T16:46:37Z Bike: doing a linter with cleavir tools might be nice.
2020-11-30T16:47:33Z beach: Indeed.
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2020-11-30T16:56:20Z jcowan: S.C. Johnson's "Lint: A C program checker" says: "The separation of function between lint and the C compilers has both historical and practical rationale. The compilers turn C programs. into executable files rapidly and. efficiently. This is possible in part because the compilers do not do sophisticated type checking, 'especially between separately compiled programs. Lint takes a more global, leisurely view of the.
2020-11-30T16:56:20Z jcowan: program, looking much more carefully at the compatibilities. "
2020-11-30T16:56:42Z jcowan: arrgh, bad OCR
2020-11-30T16:58:20Z beach: jcowan: I don't think such a separation is justified.
2020-11-30T16:58:37Z beach: Maybe it was at the time.
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2020-11-30T16:58:56Z jcowan: Perhaps not any more.  If both compilation and linting are fast enough, it may pay to do them both at once.
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2020-11-30T17:03:00Z Bike: i think a strict lint might do more analysis than a compiler would be willing to, because it's not actually relevant to optimization/whatever
2020-11-30T17:03:26Z beach: Maybe it is justified for languages such as C++ that have to include huge amounts of code in order to compile a single file.
2020-11-30T17:09:31Z jcowan: Bike: Just so
2020-11-30T17:10:52Z beach: I would vote against such a separation.  It may very well create a lot of code duplication, resulting in a higher maintenance burden.
2020-11-30T17:11:36Z beach: I know there are people who don't care much about the maintenance aspect, but I do.
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2020-11-30T17:16:03Z jackdaniel: I've read an interview (sorry, I don't remember with whom) about code analysis performed by IDE (I think he was working on vscode) and the claim was that to do a good code analysis of C you basically need to compile it (but not necessarily to the executable)
2020-11-30T17:16:28Z jackdaniel: so basically even for C static code analysis (according to that person) is not sufficient to give a good insight
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2020-11-30T17:18:51Z jcowan: beach: lint(1) included the first pass of the C compiler with a different back end.
2020-11-30T17:19:35Z beach: I suppose that's good.
2020-11-30T17:22:03Z beach: Even so, I think it's a bad idea.  Either the programmer runs both the compiler and the linter each time in which case the compilation time will essentially double.  Or else, the programmer will waste time tracking down bugs that the linter would have found.
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2020-11-30T17:23:21Z beach: For C, I have seen lots of people who don't even turn on all the warnings at compile time, and thereby wasting lots of time tracking down bugs that the compiler would have warned about.
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2020-11-30T17:25:35Z beach: I think a much better idea would be to do incremental compilation in an IDE so that the programmer gets immediate feedback.  And since it is incremental, it would not take a lot of time.
2020-11-30T17:25:54Z beach: Then the incremental compiler could do the work of the linter as well.
2020-11-30T17:26:51Z pfdietz: git pull
2020-11-30T17:26:55Z pfdietz: Arg
2020-11-30T17:27:28Z jackdaniel: I think that making distinction between compilers and linters is quite superficial (because the former may be repurposed as the latter, and the latter has a big overlap with the former); in other words I agree with beach
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2020-11-30T17:31:56Z jcowan: beach: OTOH, since the linter is not perfect, it may catch non-bugs where the programmer does actually know better.  This is the difference between Dialyzer-style static type checkers and more usual ones: the former complain only about code that is provably wrong, whereas the latter complain about code that is not provably right.
2020-11-30T17:32:47Z beach: I see.
2020-11-30T17:33:25Z beach: I still remain unconvinced, perhaps as I would be one of the people who would always run both together.
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2020-11-30T17:35:42Z jcowan: Which is why most lints (including the original lint) have some convention for suppressing lint output of a particular type and/or at a particular point in the program.
2020-11-30T17:35:58Z jcowan: Usually a comment or pragma
2020-11-30T17:36:12Z jackdaniel: (muffle-warnings … ) :)
2020-11-30T17:36:22Z beach: Such annotations could be observed by the compiler as well.
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2020-11-30T17:36:51Z beach: In Common Lisp we already have things like that, yes, muffle-warnings, (declare (ignorable...))
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2020-11-30T18:15:41Z phoe: okay
2020-11-30T18:15:47Z phoe: seems like it was a good talk
2020-11-30T18:15:56Z Josh_2: Good :)
2020-11-30T18:16:20Z phoe: I barely touched the condition system because there were lots of questions about the control flow and closures, so the basics - but I linked to the OLM recording so things should be good
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2020-11-30T18:20:59Z phoe: time to unwind
2020-11-30T18:27:15Z Josh_2: as opposed to restarting?
2020-11-30T18:28:20Z phoe: the CHILL restart I've invoked includes unwinding
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2020-11-30T18:34:41Z ioa: It was a great talk, thank you phoe!!
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2020-11-30T18:35:38Z ioa: :D
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2020-11-30T18:36:41Z ioa invokes her debugger and will restart work tomorrow :P
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2020-11-30T19:57:07Z pfdietz: phoe: to answer your earlier question about the bugs uncovered by the random tester...
2020-11-30T19:58:12Z phoe: pfdietz: yes
2020-11-30T19:58:21Z pfdietz: phoe: the file misc/misc.lsp in ansi-tests contains a bunch of tests that were examples of failures in various lisps.   Many have comments indicating which lisp it was.
2020-11-30T19:58:27Z phoe: (and there was also a question if you'd like to talk about it sometime!)
2020-11-30T19:58:33Z phoe opens
2020-11-30T19:59:34Z pfdietz: These were produced either by the random form generator in random/random-int-form.lsp, or by the "rtp" tests in random/random-type-prop-tests-*.lsp
2020-11-30T20:00:51Z pfdietz: Eric Marsden was running the random tester for a while on sbcl; check the sbcl bug tracker.  I have since renewed running it, check my entries there as well.   Many of the recent entries are from that mutational tester I mentioned earlier.
2020-11-30T20:01:29Z pfdietz: There are (if I recall correctly) 11 bugs in the clisp bug tracker that came from the random tester.
2020-11-30T20:02:57Z pfdietz: The problem there is tracking down just where that bug tracker is.  clisp has moved around.
2020-11-30T20:03:36Z phoe: right now it's on gitlab.com; CCL also switched from trac to github.
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2020-11-30T20:09:29Z pfdietz: I don't think they carried over the old issues.
2020-11-30T20:09:41Z phoe: I don't think so either; CCL for sure did not
2020-11-30T20:09:51Z phoe: they at least keep the old trac up though!
2020-11-30T20:10:03Z pfdietz: sourceforge had the old tracker.   Here's an example of a bug the tester found:  https://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/bugs/200/
2020-11-30T20:10:06Z Cthulhux: which makes the switch a bigger disadvantage than advantage
2020-11-30T20:10:15Z Cthulhux: IMO
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2020-11-30T20:11:39Z pfdietz: I cannot make the sourceforge tracker just list the bugs I submitted.
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2020-11-30T20:19:21Z pfdietz: Here are some https://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/bugs/search/?q=+status%3Aclosed-fixed&page=13
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2020-11-30T20:24:11Z Kurvivor: good evening. Does anyone have expedience with ECL's asdf:make-build extension? More specifically, with building monolithic static libraries
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2020-11-30T20:27:36Z Josh_2: How can I get the current working directory?
2020-11-30T20:28:23Z phoe: Josh_2: uiop:getcwd
2020-11-30T20:29:28Z Josh_2: obviously It's that simple
2020-11-30T20:29:41Z Josh_2: I tried all sorts of variants of pwd but not cwd :P
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2020-11-30T20:31:41Z phoe: cwd stands for current working directory
2020-11-30T20:31:50Z phoe: and hmmm, pwd stands for print working directory
2020-11-30T20:32:04Z phoe: I can see the confusion
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2020-11-30T20:53:19Z PuercoPop: pfdietz: Have you given any thought as to how best integrate code coverage information files or ASDF systems? Both sb-cover and cover work at the level of forms, not files afaiu
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2020-11-30T21:02:19Z pve: Is there a function for detecting whether a symbol has been declared a global dynamic variable (even if unbound)?
2020-11-30T21:03:12Z phoe: pve: cltl2:variable-information
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2020-11-30T21:03:52Z pfdietz: PuercoPop:  sb-cover can be enabled globally.     (eval '(declaim (optimize sb-cover:store-coverage-data)))
2020-11-30T21:03:56Z pve: phoe: oh cool!
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2020-11-30T21:06:09Z pve: phoe: is cltl2 supported by most implementations?
2020-11-30T21:06:40Z phoe: pve: (ql:quickload :trivial-cltl2)
2020-11-30T21:06:55Z pve: yeah, I just saw that one
2020-11-30T21:06:55Z pfdietz: For cover, you need to be able to fiddle with packages when annotation is turned on.   This could be done by using the macroexpand hook to add that to in-package.
2020-11-30T21:06:57Z pve: thanks
2020-11-30T21:09:16Z pfdietz: The problem I have with sb-cover is that is can screw up when the readtable is changed.   It needs to somehow record readtable information to properly annotate source files.
2020-11-30T21:09:43Z pfdietz: cover works at the s-expression level, so that's not an issue there (but the coverage reports are harder to read).
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2020-11-30T21:10:38Z pfdietz: cover fails with some macros that have code walkers, particularly iterate.  I have a modified version of iterate that works with an enhanced version of cover.
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2020-11-30T21:12:33Z pfdietz: sb-cover does work at the level of files, btw.
2020-11-30T21:14:03Z PuercoPop: pfdietz: yeah, but I'm trying to think about how to compute the coverage 'diff' after running a test. afaiu sb-cover stores a coverage bit for each form it compiles, right? But you still have to check the coverage bit for the forms you care about. There is no way to run (test-foo) and then ask for what new 'paths' have been run
2020-11-30T21:15:35Z PuercoPop: pfdietz: it does? I'll have to look at it again then.
2020-11-30T21:16:02Z pfdietz: I mean, it prints out reports on a file-by-file basis.
2020-11-30T21:17:09Z pfdietz: At previous job, we had an extension of cover that did things like allow rollback of coverage information, and also dumping coverage info to a file for combination (to get aggregate coverage from separate tests).  But I left that behind for IP reasons.
2020-11-30T21:17:53Z pfdietz: The rollback would be useful for incremental generation of minimized unit tests that increase coverage.
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2020-11-30T21:23:40Z PuercoPop: fwir the report is built by walking the forms in the file and checking the coverage bit for each form.
2020-11-30T21:24:40Z PuercoPop: So for 'rollbacks' or snapshots one would have to do that and store the information in a datastructure, right? But also one would have to know before hand which files to check. I guess one could use ASDF for that
2020-11-30T21:26:25Z pfdietz: lp 1811102
2020-11-30T21:26:25Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1811102
2020-11-30T21:26:46Z pfdietz: Request for API enhancement for sb-cover.  Add your own needs there.
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2020-11-30T22:31:51Z nihil: Hey all
2020-11-30T22:32:12Z Xach: hello nihil
2020-11-30T22:32:22Z nihil: hi xach
2020-11-30T22:33:12Z Xach: Are you here for some stimulating Common Lisp chat?
2020-11-30T22:33:40Z nihil: isn't this the speech impediment channel?
2020-11-30T22:33:55Z nihil: :) jk ofc I am
2020-11-30T22:34:56Z nihil: though I was thinking of something that's probably not directly relevant to CL but program design in general...
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2020-11-30T22:37:54Z phoe: fire away
2020-11-30T22:38:08Z phoe: in the worst case we'll suggest #lispcafe as a less strictly-on-topic channel
2020-11-30T22:38:31Z nihil: (I'm a beginner in general, and I'm making some little project)
2020-11-30T22:38:50Z nihil: I started making my code more and more modular
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2020-11-30T22:39:28Z nihil: creating a superclass when two classes shared a couple slots
2020-11-30T22:39:44Z save-lisp-or-die: ravioli anyone?
2020-11-30T22:39:56Z nihil: ^ my thoughts exactly
2020-11-30T22:40:00Z phoe: nihil: OK, this already sounds kinda lispy
2020-11-30T22:41:03Z save-lisp-or-die: what issues are you bumping up against? Or are you just sort of... feeling uncertain?
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2020-11-30T22:42:37Z nihil: I guess it's a question of style, whether it makes sense to make a class to save in slot definitions
2020-11-30T22:43:10Z nihil: I did consider a superclass could make for a somewhat general framework
2020-11-30T22:43:46Z nihil: to make all objects inherit from a set of classes in a sort of mix-and-match
2020-11-30T22:44:17Z nihil: but then I also thought "what about elements that won't require a name and a description?"
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2020-11-30T22:44:43Z nihil: and I came full circle making a blank class just to have everything inherit from it
2020-11-30T22:44:53Z nihil: is that stupid?
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2020-11-30T22:45:29Z save-lisp-or-die: My personal taste is to not give in to the temptation of "factoring out" classes unless that class will actually serve a different role in the running application.
2020-11-30T22:45:53Z ane: uh, if I have a cffi function like this: void foobar(size_t *blah);, which in C I would call like this size_t blah; foobar(&blah); ... how would I do that using cffi? something like (with-foreign-object (blah :uint) (let ((ptr (foreign-alloc :uint))) (setf (mem-aref ptr :uint) blah) (foreign-funcall "foobar" :pointer ptr :void))
2020-11-30T22:45:57Z save-lisp-or-die: But using "mix -ins" for augmenting "main classes" is a useful strategy for some application domains.
2020-11-30T22:46:01Z ane: but I seem to get some unhandled memory exceptions
2020-11-30T22:46:40Z save-lisp-or-die: nihil without seeing your application, its hard to say what you should do. I see your concern. I say go with your gut and come back when things get hairy
2020-11-30T22:47:07Z phoe: nihil: mixin classes are pretty common
2020-11-30T22:47:30Z phoe: but then again, what exactly should your set of superclasses be depends on your application logic
2020-11-30T22:48:23Z phoe: and that's a question of what you want your inheritance graph to look like, how do you want to apply the Liskov substitution principle, and which classes of your graph are meant to be protocol classes (not meant to be instantiated directly).
2020-11-30T22:48:53Z save-lisp-or-die: nihil like. I wrote a (fairly crappy, just-for-friends) matrix bot framework a while back. It used a mixin approach. I made a main client - then each bot had "components" that I could mix in to customize the behavior of the particular bot in question.
2020-11-30T22:49:16Z save-lisp-or-die: I could even install new behaviors in old bots (while they were running) by adding in a new class to the list of superclasses for the bot in question.
2020-11-30T22:49:42Z save-lisp-or-die: so. It can be a good idea, but it can also get icky. Like people are suggesting. It depends on the specifics of your application.
2020-11-30T22:49:44Z nihil: save-lisp-or-die: oh that sounds like what I'm doing
2020-11-30T22:50:12Z save-lisp-or-die: cool beans
2020-11-30T22:50:18Z save-lisp-or-die: well. It worked well for me
2020-11-30T22:50:48Z nihil: phoe: I'd never heard of the Liskov principle
2020-11-30T22:50:56Z nihil looks stuff up
2020-11-30T22:51:11Z phoe: nihil: in other words
2020-11-30T22:51:32Z phoe: if some place in your code accepts something of class X, it should also accept all subclasses of X
2020-11-30T22:52:12Z nihil: ah yes
2020-11-30T22:52:22Z Gnuxie[m]: save-lisp-or-die: matrix bot? Like the matrix i'm stuck in?
2020-11-30T22:53:08Z save-lisp-or-die: that's correct. I didn't use your (very cool) library though.
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2020-11-30T22:55:09Z Gnuxie[m]: Oh ok, that's cool, do you have a repo for your library somewhere?
2020-11-30T22:56:39Z save-lisp-or-die: Gnuxie[m] https://github.com/cbeo/granolin is where the bot is interned
2020-11-30T22:57:40Z save-lisp-or-die: Gnuxie[m] not really  intended for human consumption. Just something that a friend and I were using last summer to play around.
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2020-11-30T22:59:57Z Gnuxie[m]: that's ok, I'll take a look in a minute, thanks
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2020-11-30T23:14:52Z Gnuxie[m]: save-lisp-or-die: that's quite nice, I have some ideas in the pipeline to make writing this sort of thing easier in the future, I've not really talked about them too much publicly
2020-11-30T23:16:18Z Gnuxie[m]: if you looked at cl-matrix, you'll notice there's a sort of generator, but i was a bit naive and didn't generalize it at the time but I did start fixing that https://gitlab.com/Gnuxie/rest-api-description
2020-11-30T23:17:05Z Gnuxie[m]: some people have wrote generators for swagger apis but the problem with that is that if the thing you're trying to wrap is not expressed in swagger than you're sorta stuck
2020-11-30T23:18:04Z Gnuxie[m]: so i started trying to make a model for it all in CLOS, but it's a bit of a big task tbh, hopefully you'd be able to do things for webservers from this library too
2020-11-30T23:19:20Z Gnuxie[m]: https://gitlab.com/Gnuxie/invidious-api-description/-/blob/master/description.lisp here's an example of something I made that uses it
2020-11-30T23:19:36Z Gnuxie[m]: far from complete though
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