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2020-10-01T03:08:34Z kreyren: x.x 2020-10-01T03:08:55Z kreyren: meaning i have a hello world file with .cl extension that i want to invoke through ecl 2020-10-01T03:09:15Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-01T03:09:47Z borei joined #lisp 2020-10-01T03:10:04Z no-defun-allowed: ecl --load foo.cl? 2020-10-01T03:10:06Z drmeister: kreyren: (load "hello-world.cl") 2020-10-01T03:10:08Z aeth: kreyren: man ecl suggests --load or --shell 2020-10-01T03:10:08Z borei: good afternoon/good morning. 2020-10-01T03:10:48Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, > ;;; Loading "/home/kreyren/test.cl" < does not show `hello` 2020-10-01T03:10:53Z kreyren: checking 2020-10-01T03:11:17Z no-defun-allowed: What's in test.cl that would make it show hello? 2020-10-01T03:11:47Z kreyren: drmeister, drmeister that also doesn't run it 2020-10-01T03:11:58Z kreyren: kreyren@leonid:~$ cat test.cl | ix 2020-10-01T03:11:58Z kreyren: http://ix.io/2zkU 2020-10-01T03:12:00Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, 2020-10-01T03:12:16Z kreyren: also this is run in cargo-make so i ideally need to provide an argument 2020-10-01T03:12:49Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that won't print "Hello" unless evaluated from a REPL. 2020-10-01T03:13:05Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, elaborate? 2020-10-01T03:13:10Z no-defun-allowed: Try (print "Hello") -- LOAD won't print the results of what it evaluates. Also what's cargo-make? 2020-10-01T03:13:30Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, cargo-make https://github.com/sagiegurari/cargo-make 2020-10-01T03:13:37Z borei: working on the logging library, file logging pretty much completed, was trying to log to local syslog, but found that i can't write to "/dev/log" socket. 2020-10-01T03:13:50Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-10-01T03:14:05Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren: Mother of McCarthy... 2020-10-01T03:14:11Z drmeister: kreyren: My instructions assumed that you had already started ecl using: ecl and you have the > prompt. 2020-10-01T03:14:22Z drmeister: Say you have a hello-world.cl that looks like: 2020-10-01T03:14:23Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/tDyAq6aZ/ 2020-10-01T03:14:29Z kreyren: checking 2020-10-01T03:14:51Z drmeister: Ok - I effed it up by missing a parenthesis. Darn my hide. 2020-10-01T03:15:13Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-01T03:15:26Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/oD225m91/ 2020-10-01T03:16:05Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/sypVkE6L/ 2020-10-01T03:17:29Z kreyren: using the `(print "Hello")` works, but i need ecl to run it and exit true unless specified otherwise where using `ecl --load file` starts an interactive session 2020-10-01T03:17:48Z no-defun-allowed: borei: /dev/log is a Unix socket and not a file. I can't remember if there are libraries for working with Unix sockets though. 2020-10-01T03:19:28Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T03:19:29Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren: You can add (sys:quit) at the end of the file to make ECL quit after evaluating the rest. 2020-10-01T03:20:29Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, that still outputs `;;; Loading "/home/kreyren/test.cl"` 2020-10-01T03:20:44Z kreyren: which is unwanted as i want to use it as a part of a backend to compile the software cross-platform 2020-10-01T03:21:35Z no-defun-allowed: ecl -q --load foo.cl 2020-10-01T03:22:14Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, just do ecl --shell foo.cl instead 2020-10-01T03:22:21Z kreyren: leaves unwanted space https://i.imgur.com/dBZik8X.png 2020-10-01T03:22:45Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, also leaves unwanted space (ecl --shell foo.cl) 2020-10-01T03:23:16Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-01T03:23:29Z no-defun-allowed: Well, do you want the quotes as well? If not, (write-line "...") will just write a line. 2020-10-01T03:23:47Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T03:25:14Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, perfect! thanks ^-^ 2020-10-01T03:26:00Z borei joined #lisp 2020-10-01T03:26:13Z borei: too tight to sbcl, good for now, but can be a bit restrictive later 2020-10-01T03:27:15Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-10-01T03:36:59Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2020-10-01T03:38:47Z borei: hmmm, there is no sb-bsd-socket package definition 2020-10-01T03:39:23Z borei: am i missing something ? 2020-10-01T03:39:34Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-01T03:39:55Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T03:40:38Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T03:42:37Z diamondbond quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-01T03:45:27Z borei: any suggestion is more then welcome 2020-10-01T03:49:32Z borei: interesting, it was working before, in sbcl 2.0.4, but got broken in 2.0.8 2020-10-01T03:54:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T03:56:14Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-01T03:57:19Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T04:02:01Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-01T04:02:07Z sts-q quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T04:04:53Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-01T04:06:09Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2020-10-01T04:06:11Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T04:08:22Z jibanes joined #lisp 2020-10-01T04:16:51Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-10-01T04:18:07Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T04:22:42Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-10-01T04:22:43Z nckx joined #lisp 2020-10-01T04:22:44Z akoana: borei: there is sb-posix:syslog 2020-10-01T04:27:05Z kreyren: How can i execute `(write-line "...")` through ecl subshell? where the usage is http://ix.io/2zl4 trying to adapt the code base to work on as many turing complete systems as possible 2020-10-01T04:28:12Z kreyren also made https://github.com/sagiegurari/cargo-make/issues/461 2020-10-01T04:28:26Z borei: non of the contrib package can be found in my system 2020-10-01T04:29:10Z akoana: borei: example: (sb-posix:syslog 1 "test message ~d from sbcl" 42) ;; 1 is the priority 2020-10-01T04:29:20Z no-defun-allowed: Why are you using ECL...to script...um...something to do with Makefiles and Rust? 2020-10-01T04:29:50Z no-defun-allowed: (And, what makes you think it's more portable than CPython or the POSIX shell?) 2020-10-01T04:32:01Z benjamin-l joined #lisp 2020-10-01T04:32:19Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Quit: Пока, мир.) 2020-10-01T04:32:35Z borei: sorted out issue with packages they need to be "required" first :-) 2020-10-01T04:32:47Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2020-10-01T04:32:53Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, because i want to use rust to mess with it's embedding project for my weird implementation of bedrock linux-inspired project in something more production ready where the Makefile and cargo-make are using shell for scripting of repository management 2020-10-01T04:33:05Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T04:33:26Z no-defun-allowed: I thought in Rust they used one too many commas to delimit things, but here you are with none. 2020-10-01T04:33:37Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, > or the POSIX shell? < -- Because systems from 1971 usually only have bourne shell (bsh) without a good way to get POSIX sh 2020-10-01T04:33:41Z kreyren: and i hate python~ 2020-10-01T04:34:02Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, eh? O.o 2020-10-01T04:34:26Z no-defun-allowed: An off-topic joke, though I need some time to parse that. 2020-10-01T04:34:45Z kreyren: o.o 2020-10-01T04:34:58Z kreyren: any relevant info to the implementation is appreciated btw ^-^ 2020-10-01T04:35:14Z no-defun-allowed: I don't have any information, I'm just really confused right now. 2020-10-01T04:35:19Z jibanes joined #lisp 2020-10-01T04:35:46Z kreyren: o.o 2020-10-01T04:35:50Z kreyren: what about 2020-10-01T04:35:52Z no-defun-allowed: It seems very, very unlikely that you are going to run Common Lisp (via ECL) or Rust code on systems from 1971. 2020-10-01T04:36:37Z kreyren: from my point of view i don't see why ECL is a problem there and Rust is the challenging part as it's embedding could use some work 2020-10-01T04:38:20Z no-defun-allowed: ECL uses C99, which probably wouldn't have any compilers targeting or running on a 70s machine. (Well, someone with too much free time probably did write one, but I haven't heard of it.) 2020-10-01T04:42:21Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, what do you suggest then? 2020-10-01T04:43:05Z no-defun-allowed: Finding a language that would run on such a machine. 2020-10-01T04:49:23Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, i though that lisp is that language O.o apparently people who use legacy systems are using lisp on them 2020-10-01T04:49:35Z no-defun-allowed: Not Common Lisp. 2020-10-01T04:51:56Z kreyren: ecl apparently 2020-10-01T04:52:56Z no-defun-allowed: Definitely not ECL if you don't have a C99 compiler. 2020-10-01T04:54:26Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, is there anything more portable then ECL in terms of lisp then? 2020-10-01T04:55:02Z no-defun-allowed: I can't think of any implementation that would support an older C compiler, or would fit in memory on an old machine. 2020-10-01T04:55:03Z luckless_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T04:55:14Z slyrus quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T04:55:44Z kreyren: x.x 2020-10-01T04:55:57Z kreyren: like elisp works there.. 2020-10-01T04:56:06Z kreyren: but that seems as terrible implementation 2020-10-01T04:56:17Z no-defun-allowed: You can run GNU Emacs on a machine from 1971? 2020-10-01T04:57:02Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, yes #emacs keeps telling me that when i am researching for emacs contribution that there are grandmas and grandpas capable of hiring a hitman that if i broke GNU Emacs on their system 2020-10-01T04:57:09Z kreyren: apparently that happend but no source was provided O.o 2020-10-01T04:58:01Z no-defun-allowed: I must really have a bad grip on time; GNU Emacs was released 14 years after the machine you have in mind. 2020-10-01T04:58:03Z kreyren: which is why GNU Emacs is using bsh for the repository management and compilation as i was told 2020-10-01T04:58:28Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, i was told that these people contributed to it to make it work on their systems 2020-10-01T04:58:50Z no-defun-allowed: That also seems very, very unlikely. 2020-10-01T04:58:52Z kreyren: apparently using that a frontend to their system 2020-10-01T04:59:01Z loke: What system are you talking about? 14 years priot to GNU Emacs? Would this me a PDP-1? 2020-10-01T04:59:14Z kreyren: LAX-something last time i checked 2020-10-01T04:59:24Z no-defun-allowed: A VAX? 2020-10-01T05:00:10Z _death: C is from 1972... 2020-10-01T05:00:12Z kreyren: no apparently some old system made by Peter Lax 2020-10-01T05:00:28Z kreyren: lemmeh check if i can find backlog 2020-10-01T05:00:32Z loke: The first VAX came out in 1977. GNU Emacs was released in 1985. However, there were earlier emacses, and there definitely was one for VMS on VAX. 2020-10-01T05:00:58Z no-defun-allowed: A more on-topic question: with CFFI, how should I get at a slot of a struct in an array? 2020-10-01T05:01:21Z loke: no-defun-allowed: You have an array of structs? 2020-10-01T05:01:28Z no-defun-allowed: Yes. 2020-10-01T05:01:59Z kreyren found http://dbwilson.com/vaxmacs/ 2020-10-01T05:02:05Z kreyren: so apparently VAX? 2020-10-01T05:02:37Z no-defun-allowed: Did you read that page at all? 2020-10-01T05:02:43Z ex_nihilo_ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T05:02:54Z kreyren: ye but i have no idea what most of that means 2020-10-01T05:03:10Z no-defun-allowed: Does it look like it could possibly mean "This is an Emacs that runs on a VAX machine"? 2020-10-01T05:03:13Z kreyren: was told Vax Common Lisp? 2020-10-01T05:03:37Z kreyren: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vax_Common_Lisp -- > dumb-terminal IDE with Emacs-like editor (programming in Common Lisp) 2020-10-01T05:04:40Z loke: no-defun-allowed: It's been a while, but something like (cffi:foreign-slot-value (cffi:mem-aref ARRAY (:struct foo) N) '(:struct foo) NAME) 2020-10-01T05:04:59Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks! 2020-10-01T05:05:03Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-01T05:05:25Z benjamin-l quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T05:09:27Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T05:10:08Z bjorkintosh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-01T05:10:45Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2020-10-01T05:11:31Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-01T05:12:40Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T05:16:31Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-10-01T05:21:36Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-01T05:22:32Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-01T05:28:52Z kreyren is researching VAX Common Lisp 2020-10-01T05:30:08Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-01T05:30:33Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-01T05:31:29Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-01T05:31:58Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-01T05:32:52Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-01T05:33:19Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-01T05:33:47Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T05:34:05Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T05:35:16Z beach: kreyren: Do you have a VAX to run it on? 2020-10-01T05:42:53Z kreyren: beach, nope but i will implement a CI to run it on VAX machine if everything goes as planned 2020-10-01T05:43:32Z beach: What is a CI? 2020-10-01T05:44:11Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T05:44:45Z no-defun-allowed: A continuous integration script, which runs when you push code to an online repository. Hopefully it uses an emulator. 2020-10-01T05:45:03Z beach: I see. Thanks! 2020-10-01T05:47:57Z kreyren: beach, Continuous Integration 2020-10-01T05:48:06Z beach: Right, thanks. 2020-10-01T05:51:45Z Misha_B joined #lisp 2020-10-01T05:52:10Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-01T05:57:17Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T05:58:47Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-01T06:02:08Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-01T06:02:53Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-01T06:04:22Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:07:31Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T06:07:57Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:10:19Z dominic34 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T06:11:56Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:12:26Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-01T06:13:12Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:14:00Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T06:14:19Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:16:34Z jackdaniel: no-defun-allowed: indeed ecl formally requires c99 compiler, but factually it works with the earlier standard 2020-10-01T06:17:26Z no-defun-allowed: What was before C99? C89? I think that is still some time after the age of VAXen. 2020-10-01T06:17:37Z jackdaniel: in fact it was originally written to work (among other things) on a vax machine, however that would be a surprise if it had worked there /now/ :) 2020-10-01T06:18:45Z jackdaniel: C89, yes. And it was like this from the beginning (and it still worked on VAX), so there you have it. But I don't know much about vax myself except for the name ;) 2020-10-01T06:19:06Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-01T06:20:47Z jackdaniel: what is the best structure to check for membership (a set)? 2020-10-01T06:21:22Z jackdaniel: lists and vectors would require in pessimistic case checking all elements 2020-10-01T06:21:31Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-01T06:21:44Z ex_nihilo__ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:21:48Z jackdaniel: alternatively I could create a hash table with keys and some dummy values, but that sounds yuck 2020-10-01T06:21:59Z no-defun-allowed: If you are okay with insertion having side effects, a hash table with elements as keys. If not, fset or cl-hamt or something. 2020-10-01T06:22:20Z jackdaniel: thanks 2020-10-01T06:24:06Z ex_nihilo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-01T06:24:47Z _death: you may also use a sorted vector, or a bit set (for dense sets) 2020-10-01T06:25:23Z jackdaniel: right, but objects doesn't have any applicable order (basically they are standard object instances) 2020-10-01T06:26:34Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-01T06:26:36Z _death: you can define an arbitrary order.. 2020-10-01T06:27:32Z _death: but a hash table is a good way, if it supports your equality test 2020-10-01T06:28:15Z jackdaniel: arbitrary order? what do you mean? 2020-10-01T06:28:38Z jackdaniel: you have three opaque instances # # #, by what means do you compare them? 2020-10-01T06:28:53Z jackdaniel: some implementations with non-moving gc could give you a pointer 2020-10-01T06:29:01Z jackdaniel: but that's it (and it is not portable) 2020-10-01T06:29:36Z schweers joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:29:56Z _death: right, if they are opaque then you may not be able to order them.. this would also rule out fset btw 2020-10-01T06:30:42Z _death: or at least make it degenerate into a linear search 2020-10-01T06:31:03Z jackdaniel: alright, I'll stick with a hash table, thanks 2020-10-01T06:31:24Z spal quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-01T06:31:24Z phoe: I use an EQ hash table for that where values are eq to keys 2020-10-01T06:31:35Z spal joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:31:45Z phoe: works well enough as a hashset 2020-10-01T06:31:49Z _death: then your objects shouldn't be characters or numbers 2020-10-01T06:32:19Z _death: or NIL 2020-10-01T06:32:26Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:32:28Z _death: unless you use the second value 2020-10-01T06:32:49Z _death: I usually use T as the value 2020-10-01T06:33:13Z phoe: _death: yes, sorry, EQ is the best for standard objects; please adjust your test accordingly depending on the type of your objects 2020-10-01T06:33:28Z phoe: ;; and I always use the secondary value 2020-10-01T06:41:37Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:44:29Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:47:38Z iissaacc: Could anyone familiar with Parenscript tell me why (new (-Person age shoe-size)) is giving me new(Person(age, shoeSize); instead of new Person(age, shoeSize); ? 2020-10-01T06:47:59Z iissaacc: The example is from the manual, so it should work but maybe I'm doing something wrong 2020-10-01T06:49:07Z phoe: iissaacc: (describe 'new) 2020-10-01T06:49:26Z phoe: are you sure you are using the ps-js:new symbol and not one from another package? 2020-10-01T06:49:54Z phoe: or rather, parenscript symbol, not ps-js one 2020-10-01T06:50:37Z iissaacc: let me check 2020-10-01T06:52:58Z iissaacc: yes, sure 2020-10-01T06:54:01Z drl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T06:54:03Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:54:13Z johnjay quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-01T06:54:35Z Alfr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T06:54:35Z thonkpod quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T06:54:35Z cognemo quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T06:54:35Z entel quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T06:54:35Z boeg quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T06:54:35Z C-16 quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T06:54:37Z oldtopman quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T06:56:16Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:57:05Z iissaacc: hmm ok i tried it within the parenscript package and it worked so something is going on... 2020-10-01T06:57:09Z johnjay joined #lisp 2020-10-01T06:57:24Z kreyren: peer-review to the implementation of common lisp in cargo-make is appreciated https://github.com/sagiegurari/cargo-make/issues/461 2020-10-01T06:57:42Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:00:33Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:00:45Z iissaacc: ok stupid mistake. figure dit out 2020-10-01T07:00:58Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-01T07:00:59Z kreyren: iissaacc, yaay 2020-10-01T07:01:21Z no-defun-allowed: "but are not designed to be compatible with each other (even though some are mostly compatible)" They are compatible! It wouldn't be a very Common Lisp otherwise. 2020-10-01T07:01:51Z no-defun-allowed: And by the sounds of things, you're only parameterizing the line to write, which would best be left to echo. 2020-10-01T07:02:04Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, i meant in lisp overview not in just common lisp if that makes sense 2020-10-01T07:02:33Z kreyren: alike elisp using cl- prefix for common lisp functions that it's reimplementing 2020-10-01T07:02:52Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, those are different languages. 2020-10-01T07:02:58Z iissaacc: i realised you need to :use #:parenscript rather than only :import-from #:parenscript #:ps 2020-10-01T07:03:26Z no-defun-allowed: Implementations of Common Lisp implement the same language. An implementation of Emacs implements a different language... 2020-10-01T07:04:14Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:07:21Z beach: iissaacc: I advice against :USE-ing any package other than the CL package. 2020-10-01T07:07:58Z beach: iissaacc: With package-local nicknames, you can have short package prefixes. 2020-10-01T07:09:02Z iissaacc: yes thats what I was trying to avoid, but I don't want to have to write a prefix in front of every parenscript symbol 2020-10-01T07:09:22Z iissaacc: I think i have a macro that will solve that problem though 2020-10-01T07:09:27Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:09:40Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren: So even if that implementation did work, it wouldn't do very much that you couldn't do before. (And there is an edit button somewhere on a comment.) 2020-10-01T07:09:57Z beach: Wow, the parenscript package has a nickname of PS. That is really bad. 2020-10-01T07:10:38Z _death: iissaacc: you can import #:new 2020-10-01T07:10:59Z madnificent joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:11:09Z no-defun-allowed uploaded an image: Screenshot_2020-10-01_17-17-20.png (36KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/bOBHWxGpLNZrABciMpMEaVaO/Screenshot_2020-10-01_17-17-20.png > 2020-10-01T07:11:13Z no-defun-allowed: Please consult this screenshot for where to find the edit button. 2020-10-01T07:11:14Z beach: iissaacc: That is a tiny inconvenience compared to the conflicts you will have to resolve when you :USE more than one package like that, and compared to the breakage you will have to fix when the parenscript package exports a new symbol that will conflict with yours. 2020-10-01T07:11:29Z iissaacc: i wrote this a while ago when i was still :use ing everything https://controlc.com/4fe05edf 2020-10-01T07:11:32Z iissaacc: bad approach? 2020-10-01T07:14:25Z beach: iissaacc: For a person reading your code, the package prefix contains valuable information. And if you have two different packages with symbols with the same name, the package prefix immediately says where it is from. 2020-10-01T07:14:33Z _death: yes, it has all the issues of :use and more, for example it will also substitute your symbols for internal symbols 2020-10-01T07:14:37Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-01T07:14:58Z _death: *substitute internal symbols for your symbols 2020-10-01T07:15:30Z madnificent quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-01T07:15:48Z kreyren was ordering food x.x reading the backlog 2020-10-01T07:16:00Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:16:32Z beach: iissaacc: And, though you are not likely to use any of the packages I am the author of, if you tried, you would have a hard time resolving all the conflicts if you were to :USE it. 2020-10-01T07:16:46Z iissaacc: i see, i see 2020-10-01T07:17:04Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:17:34Z beach: And, I maintain that the fact that parenscript uses a general nickname of PS is really really bad. 2020-10-01T07:17:38Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, how is the edit button relevant? 2020-10-01T07:17:59Z beach: Imagine if I authored a PostScript package and gave it the same nickname. 2020-10-01T07:18:09Z madnificent joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:18:11Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, where the current implementation is using the cargo-make backend to execute ecl with arguments and parses a script that is saved as a temporary file to be executed 2020-10-01T07:18:15Z schweers: I always wondered what the point of package-nicknames were 2020-10-01T07:18:25Z _death: beach: that's been the case for a long time now 2020-10-01T07:18:35Z beach: _death: What has? 2020-10-01T07:18:46Z _death: beach: that parenscript has a ps nickname 2020-10-01T07:18:50Z beach: That doesn't make any better. 2020-10-01T07:18:57Z beach: The author should be spanked. 2020-10-01T07:19:01Z supercoven joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:19:03Z schweers: It seems like a way to use up two names in a global namespace, instead of just one. 2020-10-01T07:19:18Z beach: schweers: I totally agree. 2020-10-01T07:20:07Z pve joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:20:52Z schweers: Do package local nicknames shadow regular nickames? I.e. can I load parenscript and still have a package local nickname of ps pointing to something else? 2020-10-01T07:21:10Z jackdaniel: schweers: yes 2020-10-01T07:21:13Z iissaacc: so if parenscript function names used keywords instead, that would be better? 2020-10-01T07:21:15Z jackdaniel: they take precedence 2020-10-01T07:21:30Z schweers: So that makes the short PS nickname a little less horrible than I first thought. 2020-10-01T07:21:34Z beach: iissaacc: That's the only thing that would be worse. 2020-10-01T07:22:20Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T07:22:30Z beach: iissaacc: Because, then, a second system doing the same thing would silently clobber the first one. 2020-10-01T07:22:38Z iissaacc: so then it seems like you can't have embedded languages without having to write pkg: in front of everything 2020-10-01T07:22:49Z iissaacc: which seems kind of ugly... 2020-10-01T07:23:00Z beach: iissaacc: You should write the package prefix, as I explained. 2020-10-01T07:23:32Z beach: iissaacc: Unless, of course, you don't ever intend for your code to be used by anyone else. 2020-10-01T07:23:36Z jackdaniel: many people do put use in their packages. that makes only sense though for packages you control yourself 2020-10-01T07:23:40Z _death: beach: I think what iissaacc meant is that parenscript (which generates javascript) would interpret keyword symbols as primitives 2020-10-01T07:23:47Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T07:23:48Z jackdaniel: imagine two libraries changing exported symbols - suddently you have a conflict 2020-10-01T07:23:52Z beach: iissaacc: Or read by anyone else. Then it won't matter what you do. 2020-10-01T07:23:59Z phoe: iissaacc: package-local nicknames 2020-10-01T07:24:06Z beach: _death: Ah, OK. 2020-10-01T07:24:20Z phoe: you don't need to write package-foo-bar-something: if you can write p: inside your package 2020-10-01T07:24:27Z beach: phoe: That would still be ugly according to iissaacc, as we have discussed already. 2020-10-01T07:24:27Z iissaacc: _death thats how the S-SQL in postmodern works 2020-10-01T07:24:38Z _death: iissaacc: parenscript is fine (apart from the ps nickname).. you just need to import-from the symbols that you want 2020-10-01T07:24:46Z iissaacc: right 2020-10-01T07:24:48Z phoe: iissaacc: the issue is that in Lisp, primitives are not really keywords most of the time 2020-10-01T07:25:05Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren: It is usually more polite to edit comments than make more comments with your changes. 2020-10-01T07:25:23Z phoe: SQL has a fixed set of operators/keywords and I find it sorta meaningful to use keywords there, since you can't define new ones 2020-10-01T07:25:37Z no-defun-allowed: Also, ECL is not doing very much in your case, other than writing a line you give it. It would be more useful to give it arbitrary Lisp code. 2020-10-01T07:25:43Z phoe: ;; when you do, it's already PL/SQL 2020-10-01T07:25:54Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, ah true, but considering the current environment it's probably better to kept alike for archiving 2020-10-01T07:26:08Z phoe: whereas in JS/Parenscript I would find it kinda weird to mix functions named with keywords and functions named with non-keyword symbols 2020-10-01T07:26:30Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren: And someone can see the edited versions (by clicking on the comment date-time, which is marked as "edited"). 2020-10-01T07:26:33Z phoe: especially since no one really does that in Common Lisp, which Parenscript is inspired by and lives in 2020-10-01T07:26:40Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, true O.o 2020-10-01T07:26:43Z iissaacc: yeah i see what you mean 2020-10-01T07:26:45Z phoe: either code contains no keywords in function positions whatsoever 2020-10-01T07:26:46Z no-defun-allowed: I meant the older versions. 2020-10-01T07:26:50Z phoe: (like in CL) 2020-10-01T07:26:56Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, i update the OP then 2020-10-01T07:26:58Z phoe: or it's 100% keywords in function positions, like S-SQL 2020-10-01T07:27:47Z iissaacc: alright well I learned something, thanks folks 2020-10-01T07:27:49Z _death: until a new SQL standard comes along, or some dbms extends SQL with its own primitives... 2020-10-01T07:28:08Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:28:46Z iissaacc: i see a lot of :use in peoples code so i kind of thought it was all g, but it's like from x import * in python 2020-10-01T07:28:49Z phoe: _death: that will most likely need S-SQL support/update anyway 2020-10-01T07:29:04Z phoe: iissaacc: :USE was very common and recommended before PLNs became ubiquitous 2020-10-01T07:29:20Z phoe: but :USE also has its own big issues 2020-10-01T07:29:24Z jackdaniel: ubiquitous? 2020-10-01T07:29:25Z _death: phoe: that's what I mean.. then the set of symbols is not fixed 2020-10-01T07:29:35Z phoe: jackdaniel: s/ubiquitous/supported everywhere 2020-10-01T07:29:54Z phoe: _death: yes, I see; I meant, not user-extensible 2020-10-01T07:29:59Z jackdaniel: I understand what you said, but is it supported /everywhere/? 2020-10-01T07:30:14Z jackdaniel: or is it supported by 3-5 implementations 2020-10-01T07:30:16Z phoe: jackdaniel: okay, it is supported *everywhere enough* for my own tastes 2020-10-01T07:31:08Z phoe: it is supported now on SBCL, CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL, ACL, and will be supported on LW 7.2 AFAIR 2020-10-01T07:31:25Z treflip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T07:31:52Z phoe: that's 6+1 2020-10-01T07:32:07Z phoe: CLISP has a waiting PR that implements PLNs, too. 2020-10-01T07:32:59Z jackdaniel: so that sounds more like a "gaining traction" than "ubiquitous" ,) 2020-10-01T07:33:30Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:33:36Z schweers: If I recall correctly the current released version of CCL does not yet support PLNs. 2020-10-01T07:33:38Z jackdaniel: don't get me wrong, I would still recommend using PLN; 2020-10-01T07:33:44Z phoe: schweers: it does, 1.12 supports them 2020-10-01T07:33:48Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, updated OP hopefully it makes more sense now ^-^ 2020-10-01T07:34:14Z schweers: Oh, cool! Is that relatively recent? 2020-10-01T07:34:25Z schweers: Hm, april. So no 2020-10-01T07:34:39Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren: Also, may I ask, have you considered if the program you're adding support to will run on the target machine? 2020-10-01T07:34:49Z phoe: the PR was merged in april 2019 2020-10-01T07:35:27Z phoe: a release was made in april 2020 2020-10-01T07:36:43Z _death: the clisp package on archlinux is also deficient in that it wasn't compiled with modules.. like asdf 2020-10-01T07:37:43Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:38:00Z _death: and then quicklisp's asdf is 2.26.. so things like package-inferred-systems won't work 2020-10-01T07:39:13Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, i did and i expect possible issues on the embedded side of things that i am willing to help with atm 2020-10-01T07:39:43Z kreyren: If i don't have the resources to implement that i will fall back to C-base makefile which i already have the method implemented through mentioned in the post 2020-10-01T07:39:58Z kreyren: but i expect it to not be an issue 2020-10-01T07:40:08Z ljavorsk_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-01T07:40:45Z treflip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T07:42:47Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:43:14Z phoe: jackdaniel: right, I'll use "gaining traction" now, it's a better fit 2020-10-01T07:45:53Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:47:31Z madnificent quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-01T07:48:40Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:49:55Z schweers: I have an instance of a regular user-defined class in a constant. With SBCL this works fine, but CCL tells me that “No MAKE-LOAD-FORM method is defined for #”. What does this mean? 2020-10-01T07:50:25Z schweers makes a note to self: first check clhs, then ask in #lisp 2020-10-01T07:50:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:51:24Z loke: schweers: It's trying to persist an instance of your class in the FASL file, which may not work. 2020-10-01T07:52:40Z schweers: So it seems, yes. I’m reading the clhs on MAKE-LOAD-FORM. It seems to me that SBCL does more work on this than CCL does. So I’ve at the very least learned that I’m relying on SBCL to do something for me, it seems. 2020-10-01T07:55:04Z schweers: Dangit, I have to go. 2020-10-01T07:56:01Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-10-01T07:56:34Z contrapunctus: Anyone try using cl-prevalence? https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-prevalence/ What was your experience like? 2020-10-01T07:56:53Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:57:20Z gko` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T07:57:32Z lad quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-01T07:57:48Z loke: contrapunctus: Are you the troll from c.l.l? 2020-10-01T07:57:54Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-01T07:57:54Z lad joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:57:59Z gko joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:58:12Z beach: contrapunctus: I didn't use it, but reading the documentation, I got the impression that the class hierarchy has to remain intact when you restore a checkpoint. I may be wrong of course. 2020-10-01T07:58:14Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:58:29Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:58:44Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-01T07:59:30Z beach: contrapunctus: So I wrote "Clobber" as an alternative: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clobber. But I haven't used it for anything serious. 2020-10-01T08:00:01Z madnificent joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:01:25Z vegansbane quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-01T08:02:14Z contrapunctus: loke: I've never been on c.l.l. 🤔 what gives you that impression? 2020-10-01T08:03:50Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:04:52Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-01T08:06:30Z slyrus joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:07:25Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:07:25Z thonkpod joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:07:25Z cognemo joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:07:25Z entel joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:07:25Z boeg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:07:25Z C-16 joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:07:25Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:08:36Z contrapunctus: beach: oooh, that looks interesting 😀 2020-10-01T08:09:11Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:10:40Z beach: Thanks! 2020-10-01T08:11:19Z beach: It is basically logging every transaction, so that you can create an equivalent state by replaying the log from a fresh image. 2020-10-01T08:11:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T08:12:13Z beach: And since the log only mentions protocol operations, the class hierarchy does not have to remain intact between the image that created the log and the one replaying it. 2020-10-01T08:12:35Z beach: The new image has to support the same operations of course. 2020-10-01T08:13:57Z vegansbane joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:14:07Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T08:14:14Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:20:47Z motersen joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:21:58Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-01T08:25:22Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-01T08:29:14Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-01T08:30:03Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:36:35Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T08:37:47Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-10-01T08:39:47Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T08:48:56Z iissaacc joined 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It does on SBCL, but CCL signals a connection refused condition. 2020-10-01T11:45:56Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-01T11:46:54Z phoe: schweers: which CCL version? 2020-10-01T11:47:30Z no-defun-allowed: I guess that would be non-deterministic if HUNCHENTOOT:START starts a thread to do its work. 2020-10-01T11:47:40Z schweers: The current one, just downloaded it 2020-10-01T11:47:45Z schweers: 1.16 I believe 2020-10-01T11:47:57Z phoe: 1.16 doesn't exist AFAIK 2020-10-01T11:47:59Z schweers: It has the same problem if I wait first 2020-10-01T11:47:59Z phoe: 1.12 is the newest 2020-10-01T11:48:25Z schweers: Yes, you’re right. 1.12. I was mistaken 2020-10-01T11:48:42Z no-defun-allowed: For kicks, try testing both a few more times; my guess is that you'll get inconsistent behavior for both with that code. 2020-10-01T11:49:10Z schweers: Let me put it this way: I started hunchentoot on ccl and opened it default page in a browser, which works fine. 2020-10-01T11:49:23Z schweers: If I then (aferwards) use drakma, I get a connection refused condition 2020-10-01T11:49:49Z phoe: oh 2020-10-01T11:49:54Z schweers: I first also thought that it would be a threading issue, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. At least not the way thought it might. 2020-10-01T11:49:59Z phoe: on CCL, localhost binds to ::1 instead 2020-10-01T11:50:09Z phoe: explicitly use 127.0.0.1 instead 2020-10-01T11:50:11Z schweers: netstat -tulpen tells me that port 8080 is indeed open 2020-10-01T11:50:30Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, so it's not really in a PROGN, and you take a non-negligible amount of time between both, so timing shouldn't be a problem. 2020-10-01T11:50:30Z schweers: Hm, but ::1 also binds to 127.0.0.1 2020-10-01T11:50:41Z phoe: does it? they are different addresses on different protocols 2020-10-01T11:50:45Z schweers: no-defun-allowed: exactly. 2020-10-01T11:50:53Z schweers: Nah, ipv4 is mapped into ipv6 2020-10-01T11:51:00Z schweers: Oh wait. 2020-10-01T11:51:02Z schweers: hmmmm 2020-10-01T11:51:07Z schweers: Let me try something 2020-10-01T11:52:04Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2066#2066 2020-10-01T11:52:19Z schweers: Hunchentoot on CCL binds to "::" 2020-10-01T11:53:03Z schweers: hmmm. Weird 2020-10-01T11:53:10Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2020-10-01T11:53:15Z schweers: phoe: I can reproduce what you just posted with firefox 2020-10-01T11:53:27Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-01T11:53:35Z phoe: hmmmm 2020-10-01T11:53:48Z schweers: At least I think I did it correctly 2020-10-01T11:54:34Z phoe: "In IPv4, an IP address of all zeroes has a special meaning; it refers to the host itself, and is used when a device doesn't know its own address. In IPv6 this concept has been formalized, and the all-zeroes address (0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0) is named the unspecified address." 2020-10-01T11:54:42Z phoe: that is not localhost though 2020-10-01T11:54:43Z schweers: So yes, if I explicitly use "127.0.0.1" instead of "localhost" it works. 2020-10-01T11:55:02Z phoe: ipv6 localhost is ::1 2020-10-01T11:55:08Z phoe: so this might be a CCL bug 2020-10-01T11:55:47Z flip214: phoe: do you have localhost in /etc/hosts with ::1? 2020-10-01T11:56:01Z phoe: flip214: I do 2020-10-01T11:56:25Z schweers: Oh, I accidentally uttered something untrue 2020-10-01T11:56:30Z schweers: netstat reports 0.0.0.0 2020-10-01T11:56:43Z schweers: So it indeed binds to ipv4 only 2020-10-01T11:58:39Z schweers: Passing :address "::" to the MAKE-INSTANCE invokation on the EASY-ACCEPTOR makes it work as I want. 2020-10-01T11:58:43Z schweers: Thanks for the help! 2020-10-01T11:59:44Z phoe: oh wait, I misunderstood binding and connecting 2020-10-01T11:59:57Z phoe: binding to 0.0.0.0 makes the server accessible at all ipv4 network interfaces 2020-10-01T12:00:04Z phoe: binding to :: - at all ipv6 ifaces 2020-10-01T12:00:17Z schweers: And hence all ipv4 ifaces 2020-10-01T12:00:30Z schweers: Well, on dual-stack machines. 2020-10-01T12:00:56Z schweers: If I had paid more attention to netstat’s output, I could have avoided the question entirely. 2020-10-01T12:12:07Z mfiano quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T12:12:28Z mfiano_ is now known as mfiano 2020-10-01T12:13:14Z mfiano- joined #lisp 2020-10-01T12:15:32Z mfiano- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T12:16:31Z mfiano- joined #lisp 2020-10-01T12:18:23Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T12:18:38Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-10-01T12:21:33Z mfiano- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T12:21:37Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-01T12:22:30Z mfiano- joined #lisp 2020-10-01T12:24:37Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 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quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-10-01T17:09:28Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:09:43Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:10:41Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:10:59Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:11:45Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:12:05Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:12:54Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:13:39Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:13:40Z jasom: Has anyone written a set of macros that can shadow all of the CL forms that have implicit progn with a version that lets you change how the implicit progn behaves? 2020-10-01T17:14:06Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:14:06Z jasom: that seems like it would be slightly easier to make portable than a correct code-walker while allowing doing some things that traditionally require a code walker 2020-10-01T17:14:29Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:14:44Z jasom: but it's also a lot of work because of things like tagbody, docstrings, and declarations 2020-10-01T17:14:58Z phoe: behaves? what do you mean? 2020-10-01T17:15:18Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:15:22Z supercoven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:15:40Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:16:34Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:16:34Z jasom: simple example: transform the body of the implicit progn with (mapcar (lambda (x) `(print ,x)) 2020-10-01T17:16:53Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:17:36Z shka_: jasom: this does not sound useful to be honest with you 2020-10-01T17:17:37Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:17:38Z jasom: fancier examples might be e.g. implementing RAII that is not bound by dynamic scope; if it's not the value returned from the progn, call the cleanup form immediately 2020-10-01T17:18:01Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:18:05Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:18:32Z jasom: though the latter would require reimplementing a lot more than just implicit progn 2020-10-01T17:18:42Z shka_: jasom: this does not sound useful either, unwind-protect is simply better there 2020-10-01T17:18:43Z jasom: e.g. OR 2020-10-01T17:18:47Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:18:49Z tankrim joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:19:01Z jasom: shka_: unwind-protect is limited to cleaning up things over a dynamic scope 2020-10-01T17:19:12Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:19:31Z shka_: well, you either do that, or install finalizer 2020-10-01T17:19:37Z shka_: sorry, i am not getting it 2020-10-01T17:19:40Z jasom: shka_: finalizers are not guaranteed to run ever 2020-10-01T17:19:55Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:20:21Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:20:22Z shka_: well, if you can't determine when to run a clean up in a dynamic scope, where you can do that? 2020-10-01T17:20:22Z dra_ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:20:42Z shka_: this sounds like a very niche case at best? 2020-10-01T17:21:01Z shka_: and macros and niche cases is not the great combination 2020-10-01T17:21:10Z dra_ is now known as dra 2020-10-01T17:21:18Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:21:23Z jasom: implementing threading and delimited continuations also want to override the progn behavior usually 2020-10-01T17:21:43Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:21:56Z shka_: ok, so why not implementing your own progn in that case? 2020-10-01T17:22:16Z jasom: righ. I want to *just* implement my own progn and then plug it into let, defun *c. 2020-10-01T17:22:27Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-01T17:22:31Z jasom: And I'm pretty sure a portable library could be written do to that 2020-10-01T17:22:31Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:22:44Z shka_: i am sure that you are wrong here 2020-10-01T17:22:50Z shka_: let is a special symbol in lisp 2020-10-01T17:22:56Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:22:59Z jasom: shka_: it would be shadowed 2020-10-01T17:23:03Z shka_: ok 2020-10-01T17:23:04Z shka_: got it 2020-10-01T17:23:06Z jasom: not-cl:let 2020-10-01T17:23:09Z jasom: rather than cl:let 2020-10-01T17:23:18Z shka_: yeah, i understand 2020-10-01T17:23:38Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-01T17:23:50Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:24:01Z shka_: honestly, it sounds like you are trying to force CL to stop being CL and personally i never found much success with that, but good luck 2020-10-01T17:24:05Z jasom: cl-cont does a lot of things there; I may look at what they do and see if I can't factor it out into a library. They do a lot more than just changing how progn works. 2020-10-01T17:24:09Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:24:46Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:25:28Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:25:32Z jasom: I am trying to force CL to stop being CL, and the fact that CL makes this so doable is something I like about it. control-flow and interning are two places that CL makes itself a bit hard to customize though. 2020-10-01T17:26:26Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:26:26Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:27:13Z shka_: jasom: i share the sentiment, but as i mentioned earlier, it just never worked out for me all that well 2020-10-01T17:27:15Z davepdot_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:27:21Z jasom: If I can prototype something I can explore more easily if it's a good or bad idea as compared to just sitting around thinking. 2020-10-01T17:27:28Z shka_: at this point i am simply taking lisp as is and built on top of it 2020-10-01T17:27:35Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:27:56Z shka_: jasom: well, that sound like a fun thing to hack so sure, why not? :-) 2020-10-01T17:28:40Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:28:46Z jasom: e.g. the "package names as symbols" reader I made let me notice that it requires gymnastics if you use it for actual heirarchal packages, as you usually want foo:bar:baz defined before foo:bar which is a chicken-and-egg problem. It did make package-local-nicknames a NOP though so that was fun. 2020-10-01T17:28:56Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:29:22Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:29:52Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:30:11Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:30:56Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:30:59Z dra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T17:31:21Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:32:41Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:32:41Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:33:26Z Bike: if i understand what you want here, bound declarations would make it really annoying to write 2020-10-01T17:33:26Z davepdot_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:34:01Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:34:38Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:34:44Z jasom: Bike: what is a "bound declaration"? 2020-10-01T17:35:03Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:35:21Z Bike: a declaration for something bound by the operator, e.g. in (let ((x (f))) (declare (integer x) (cons y)) ...), (integer x) is a bound declaration and (cons y) is not 2020-10-01T17:35:49Z Bike: you can't just expand that into (let ((x (f))) (my-progn (declare ...) ...)) obviously, and less obviously doing my-locally is not the same 2020-10-01T17:35:59Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:36:04Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:36:12Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:36:41Z jasom: Bike: can you expand it into (let (...) (declare ...) (my-progn ...)) ? 2020-10-01T17:37:05Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:37:26Z Bike: mmm probably. maybe it's not that ba 2020-10-01T17:37:27Z Bike: d 2020-10-01T17:37:28Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:38:36Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:39:14Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:39:27Z Bike: i think i'd need to see an example to understand the goal here, though 2020-10-01T17:39:35Z Bike: i mean progn isn't the only way to sequence operations, obviously 2020-10-01T17:39:37Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-10-01T17:39:47Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:40:26Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:41:04Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:41:12Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:41:57Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:42:18Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:42:57Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:43:14Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:43:24Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:43:42Z jasom: Bike: right OR can sequence operations that return non-null values, for example. 2020-10-01T17:43:56Z jasom: and tagbody (but that could be seen as a special case of progn) 2020-10-01T17:44:02Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T17:44:13Z Bike: prog1/2, multiple-value-prog1, function calls 2020-10-01T17:44:23Z Bike: let* 2020-10-01T17:44:27Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:44:31Z Bike: (well, and let also) 2020-10-01T17:45:02Z jackdaniel: and prog, which mixes at least few of these 2020-10-01T17:45:25Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T17:46:03Z phoe: luckily prog has an easy macroexpansion, it's just a let/block/tagbody 2020-10-01T17:46:36Z jackdaniel: maybe the latter three expand to prog? ,) 2020-10-01T17:46:43Z phoe: oh damn 2020-10-01T17:47:22Z jackdaniel: that would be problematic, you would need to prune all tags if you expand let or block 2020-10-01T17:48:14Z phoe: only if they do not name symbol macros 2020-10-01T17:49:07Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-01T17:49:07Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T17:49:41Z jackdaniel: while I've never used prog in the code, I find its universal definition quite compelling 2020-10-01T17:50:09Z phoe: I think I did once, when I was writing a simple state machine 2020-10-01T17:50:55Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T17:51:10Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:51:39Z flak joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:51:47Z rippa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T17:52:45Z phoe: oh right, https://github.com/phoe/riichi-evaluator/blob/master/src/set.lisp#L523-L568 2020-10-01T17:54:19Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:54:39Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T17:55:18Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:55:26Z sts-q quit 2020-10-01T17:56:41Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:56:44Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-01T17:57:11Z sts-q quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-01T18:00:42Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-01T18:00:57Z whiteline quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T18:00:57Z Alfr_ quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T18:00:57Z thonkpod quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T18:00:57Z cognemo quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T18:00:57Z entel quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T18:00:57Z boeg quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T18:00:57Z C-16 quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T18:00:58Z oldtopman quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-01T18:01:52Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T18:02:18Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-01T18:03:18Z jprajzne quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-01T18:05:46Z tankrim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T18:09:47Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-01T18:10:13Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-10-01T18:11:58Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-10-01T18:12:25Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-01T18:16:45Z treflip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T18:20:37Z gareppa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-01T18:30:10Z sm2n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-01T18:30:20Z sm2n joined #lisp 2020-10-01T18:30:40Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Why not just (defmacro progn (&body b) `(funcall #'(lambda () ,@b))) 2020-10-01T19:51:28Z phoe: you are trading an explicit progn for an implicit progn 2020-10-01T19:51:29Z Bike: lambda has an implicit progn, so depending on your thinking, that's circular 2020-10-01T19:53:39Z secretmyth joined #lisp 2020-10-01T19:54:53Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-01T19:55:24Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-01T20:05:47Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-01T20:10:11Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-10-01T20:10:13Z aeth: lambda has an implicit progn; progn has an implicit lambda... how do compilers ever finish compiling? 2020-10-01T20:10:29Z moon-child: lol 2020-10-01T20:10:32Z moon-child: 'metacircular' 2020-10-01T20:10:38Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-01T20:14:10Z jasom: moon-child: the point was also that OR behaves identically to progn if each form is non-null 2020-10-01T20:14:20Z v3ga joined #lisp 2020-10-01T20:15:15Z jasom: er I have or and and backwards, but other than that what I said 2020-10-01T20:16:06Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-01T20:18:44Z aeth: jasom: well, not quite identically because OR is &rest and PROGN is &body so tools will handle them differently for e.g. indentation. 2020-10-01T20:18:50Z Bike: (defmacro progn (&body b) `((lambda (&rest #1=#:r) (declare (ignore #1#)) ,@(last b)) ,@(butlast b))) 2020-10-01T20:19:15Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2020-10-01T20:19:24Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-01T20:20:08Z aeth: I'm not really sure what a good name is, perhaps prog-every. Then you could do this: (defmacro prog-every (&body body) `(or ,@body)) 2020-10-01T20:20:28Z Bike: i think "or" would be a good name for that operator 2020-10-01T20:20:34Z aeth: OR's taken though 2020-10-01T20:21:36Z Bike: (defmacro progn (&body b) (let* ((bl (butlast b)) (f (first (last b))) (syms (loop repeat (length bl) collect (gensym)))) `(let (,@(mapcar #'list syms bl)) ,f))) 2020-10-01T20:21:50Z Bike: oh, and put in the (declare (ignore ,@syms)), of course 2020-10-01T20:24:39Z even4void quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T20:25:48Z jasom: aeth: it's already fairly idiomatic to do things like (and x (foo x)) or (or x default-x) 2020-10-01T20:29:30Z VincentVega quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T20:32:47Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-01T20:38:26Z rig0rmortis joined #lisp 2020-10-01T20:38:53Z sonologico joined #lisp 2020-10-01T20:44:11Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-01T20:44:16Z Misha_B quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-01T20:44:47Z ChoHag: aeth: That's an easy problem. 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to set a type for a constant? 2020-10-02T02:28:22Z no-defun-allowed: Inferring the type of a constant is trivial (always (EQL )), but would (declare ( )) work? 2020-10-02T02:28:28Z no-defun-allowed: declaim, not declare. 2020-10-02T02:28:56Z dbotton_: I'll look up :) 2020-10-02T02:29:19Z dbotton_: declare I know works on parameters of a function 2020-10-02T02:31:34Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-10-02T02:33:08Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-10-02T02:33:41Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T02:34:08Z dbotton_: no sure that worked 2020-10-02T02:35:09Z dbotton_: I did (declaim (fixnum me2)) on a constant string me2 and no error 2020-10-02T02:35:28Z dbotton_: and could still use me2 as a string 2020-10-02T02:36:14Z arpunk joined #lisp 2020-10-02T02:36:18Z dbotton_: so not sure how that will set up a compile time check that the constant is a string 2020-10-02T02:36:25Z dbotton_: for example 2020-10-02T02:37:40Z dbotton_: perhaps in most cases this is not needed since the constant already exists when compiling code 2020-10-02T02:39:09Z dbotton_: so type inferred 2020-10-02T02:40:37Z dbotton_: but still curious if possible 2020-10-02T02:40:58Z dbotton_: and to insure human changes keep the type I want 2020-10-02T02:41:56Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-10-02T02:45:21Z drl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T02:54:53Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-02T02:55:25Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-02T02:56:42Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T02:58:13Z Oddity joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:00:09Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-10-02T03:03:23Z Alfr joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:05:12Z Alfr_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T03:05:53Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T03:06:47Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:10:08Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:17:32Z aaaaaa: beach: oh, here are you again 2020-10-02T03:17:37Z aaaaaa: beach: good morning, indeed 2020-10-02T03:17:54Z beach: aaaaaa: I am here every morning. 2020-10-02T03:18:03Z aaaaaa: beach: yes. and sometimes I reply 2020-10-02T03:18:29Z beach: Right. 2020-10-02T03:19:24Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-02T03:19:46Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:21:09Z thonkpod quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-02T03:21:09Z cognemo quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-02T03:21:09Z entel quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-02T03:21:09Z boeg quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-02T03:21:09Z C-16 quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-02T03:21:10Z oldtopman quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-02T03:29:52Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-02T03:34:48Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:39:02Z Nilby joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:46:47Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-10-02T03:46:53Z dbotton_: declaim though does work on variables 2020-10-02T03:48:11Z yonkunas quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-02T03:49:01Z thonkpod joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:49:01Z cognemo joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:49:01Z entel joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:49:01Z boeg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:49:01Z C-16 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:49:01Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2020-10-02T03:55:22Z dbotton_: does the compiler also assert during runtime or just at compile time using that? 2020-10-02T03:56:56Z Bike: in the standard, the consequences of a declaration being incorrect are undefined. some implementations define it to be a runtime error or compile time warning. 2020-10-02T04:01:13Z Bike: the standard does not mandate any compile time type operations of any kind. an implementation that ignores all type declarations is conformant. 2020-10-02T04:01:16Z aaaaaa quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-02T04:01:35Z Bike: you can, however, get arbitrary code executed at compile time, so if you really want lisp to be ada you could maybe work something out. 2020-10-02T04:02:39Z Bike: for example, you could write (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (unless (typep me2 'string) (error 'type-error ...))) 2020-10-02T04:02:47Z Bike: with a macro, probably 2020-10-02T04:05:32Z beach: It seems to be common for people coming from statically typed languages to over-emphasize type checks and type declarations in Common Lisp. 2020-10-02T04:06:04Z dbotton_: ok I certainly could add the run time checks in a macro but compile time seems need to embellish the implementation itself 2020-10-02T04:07:03Z dbotton_: beach I see the advantage of not being to particular but for certain types of apps everything helps 2020-10-02T04:07:10Z Bike: this would be a compile time check. 2020-10-02T04:07:16Z beach: I forget who pointed this out, some talk I found online no doubt, statically typed languages often force the programmer to supply information that is typically not correct way too early in the development process. 2020-10-02T04:07:22Z Bike: see the (:compile-toplevel)? that means that code runs while compile-file is running. 2020-10-02T04:08:09Z dbotton_: so every use of the variable anywhere will get the check with that? 2020-10-02T04:08:31Z Bike: no. 2020-10-02T04:08:52Z Bike: i don't understand what that means. if it's a compile time check, what would it mean to check it at every use? do you want a runtime check whenever it's used? 2020-10-02T04:08:56Z dbotton_: that is what I mean by need to embellish the implementation 2020-10-02T04:09:22Z dbotton_: no want to insure every use of that variable is checked 2020-10-02T04:09:29Z Bike: at runtime?? 2020-10-02T04:09:36Z Bike: if you want it to check at runtime please say so. 2020-10-02T04:09:48Z dbotton_: for example at compile time 2020-10-02T04:09:52Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-02T04:09:58Z Bike: but what does it mean to check a USE at compile time 2020-10-02T04:10:07Z beach: It is silly to want a run-time check whenever a variable is used. Take the function IDENTITY, why would a call to it require the type of the argument to be checked? 2020-10-02T04:10:11Z Bike: i mean, it's a constant. you define it once. it does not change. 2020-10-02T04:10:18Z Bike: it only has one value in the compiler. 2020-10-02T04:10:22Z dbotton_: so say (setq x 123) when x typed as a string 2020-10-02T04:10:29Z Bike: you said it's a constant! 2020-10-02T04:10:56Z dbotton_: ah I was talking originally about that 2020-10-02T04:11:05Z dbotton_: sorry 2020-10-02T04:11:23Z dbotton_: I mentioned after that declaim worked on variables 2020-10-02T04:11:53Z Bike: ok, whatever. so if you want all uses of a variable checked you could put in a runtime check and make it transparent with a symbol macro. 2020-10-02T04:11:55Z dbotton_: at least in sbcl 2020-10-02T04:12:09Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T04:12:20Z Bike: then if your implementation does type inference, it can eliminate the test code when it can prove the type is always correct 2020-10-02T04:12:21Z dbotton_: the be idea is to avoid user error 2020-10-02T04:12:27Z Bike: and if it can prove it's always wrong, it can signal a warning 2020-10-02T04:12:32Z Bike: pretty sure that would work in sbcl. 2020-10-02T04:12:49Z Bike: you'd also get the same effect with a declaration, but again, the standard does not guarantee declarations are used in any way. 2020-10-02T04:12:57Z Bike: (type declarations, anyway) 2020-10-02T04:13:25Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T04:13:36Z iissaacc: beach: re your admonishment last night i looked at some of your code on github and I now agree that writing the package prefix is the way to go, haha. No need to switch around files looking for symbols 2020-10-02T04:14:01Z dbotton_: if it can prove cant be used beyond the type constraints that would be cool to optimize out a check 2020-10-02T04:14:52Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-02T04:14:54Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-02T04:14:58Z dbotton_: but I guess need to see if sbcl adds based on the declaim to start with the runtime check 2020-10-02T04:15:22Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T04:15:23Z Bike: dbotton_: see: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Declarations-as-Assertions 2020-10-02T04:16:02Z dbotton_: thanks! 2020-10-02T04:16:48Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T04:18:47Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-10-02T04:20:29Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-10-02T04:27:45Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-02T04:28:21Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-02T04:29:19Z dbotton_: very helpful 2020-10-02T04:30:03Z dbotton_: is there a way to retrieve a documentation string set a constant or variable 2020-10-02T04:30:18Z dbotton_: set on a 2020-10-02T04:33:08Z _death: clhs documentation 2020-10-02T04:33:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm 2020-10-02T04:33:54Z dbotton_: tried 2020-10-02T04:34:11Z dbotton_: doesn't seem to work 2020-10-02T04:34:34Z _death: you need to be more specific on how it doesn't work 2020-10-02T04:34:54Z _death: (documentation 'most-positive-fixnum 'variable) 2020-10-02T04:36:09Z dbotton_: I was missing the ' on the name 2020-10-02T04:36:18Z dbotton_: thank you 2020-10-02T04:36:39Z dbotton_: sorry newbie 2020-10-02T04:37:47Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T04:40:03Z dbotton_: been writing a tutorial as I learn for programmers of imperative algol like languages:) 2020-10-02T04:41:38Z dbotton_: none of the books or tutorials I found would appeal or work well with most programmers I hire 2020-10-02T04:41:39Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T04:42:05Z ludston: note: ideomatic cl is imperative 2020-10-02T04:42:45Z dbotton_: but tuts seem to focus on every thing else 2020-10-02T04:43:30Z dbotton_: mine starts with packages then functions then vars 2020-10-02T04:43:39Z dbotton_: the way they think 2020-10-02T04:43:55Z dbotton_: decompose top down 2020-10-02T04:48:17Z beach: iissaacc: Great! 2020-10-02T04:48:53Z Alfr: dbotton_, not sure that will end well, w/o introducing symbols, the reader, quote and lists first, your readers will have a hard time following any examples and keep guessing about what actually will get evaluated. (I'm omitting reader macros, yes.) 2020-10-02T04:49:43Z dbotton_: it gets slipped in so far :) 2020-10-02T04:49:43Z Alfr: I at least think that you'll need the above to explain packages, functions etc. 2020-10-02T04:50:28Z dbotton_: ill share once further 2020-10-02T04:51:24Z dbotton_: but I think will work if not oh well I learned lisp at least 2020-10-02T04:53:38Z dbotton_pc joined #lisp 2020-10-02T04:54:02Z dbotton_pc: here is a link to google doc if want https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OUXVEgXzx3BRZITnmrWGSTq_VaF4xaFJk8HStU05goo/edit?usp=sharing 2020-10-02T04:54:52Z dbotton_pc: very early but if want 2020-10-02T04:55:22Z beach: dbotton_pc: Always use three or four semicolons at the top level. 2020-10-02T04:55:53Z beach: clhs 2.4.4.2 2020-10-02T04:55:53Z specbot: Notes about Style for Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddb.htm 2020-10-02T04:56:57Z beach: dbotton_pc: A closing parenthesis is never preceded by whitespace. 2020-10-02T04:57:11Z dbotton_pc: thanks! 2020-10-02T04:57:15Z beach: [and an opening parenthesis is never followed by witespace] 2020-10-02T04:57:20Z beach: ... including newline. 2020-10-02T04:57:55Z no-defun-allowed: Parens are more like function calls than curly braces in curly brace languages. 2020-10-02T04:57:55Z beach: load("hello3.lisp") is wrong. 2020-10-02T04:58:34Z wglb joined #lisp 2020-10-02T04:58:56Z beach: I would definitely remove the (declare (fixnum x)) 2020-10-02T04:59:10Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-02T04:59:21Z no-defun-allowed: Most Lisp code doesn't have a main entry point; but everything is run when you load a file, though DEFUN obviously delays evaluation until the function that is being defined is called. 2020-10-02T04:59:36Z sts-q quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-02T05:00:03Z beach: And I would definitely remove the (declaim (fixnum *x*)) 2020-10-02T05:00:18Z dbotton_pc: beach why? 2020-10-02T05:00:38Z beach: dbotton_pc: FIXNUM is a highly implementation-specific declaration, and there is no reason to believe it is true. 2020-10-02T05:01:28Z beach: dbotton_pc: Again, a declaration is a promise by the programmer to the compiler. It is best not to make such promises if you are not sure they can be kept. 2020-10-02T05:01:31Z dbotton_pc: no-defun-allowed the idea is to make it easier for them to "picture" the ()s as something familiar 2020-10-02T05:01:43Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-02T05:01:49Z no-defun-allowed: You should picture (f x1 ... xn) as f(x1, ..., xn) then. 2020-10-02T05:02:38Z dbotton_pc: though I got that but ill reread and make sure there 2020-10-02T05:02:53Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-10-02T05:03:13Z dbotton_pc: beach sbcl uses those for its compiler checks 2020-10-02T05:03:18Z beach: dbotton_pc: You should make sure that (setf x (+ x delta)) is an approximation of the meaning of (incf x delta), because you can't just substitute any place for x and have it work. 2020-10-02T05:03:19Z dbotton_pc: is there another way? 2020-10-02T05:03:23Z no-defun-allowed: { s₁; ...; sₙ } would usually be written (progn s₁ ... sₙ) 2020-10-02T05:03:41Z beach: dbotton_pc: I am talking about the standard. You should be teaching the language and not SBCL. 2020-10-02T05:04:00Z no-defun-allowed: If you must check, you should pick a type that isn't tied to the implementation, like INTEGER. 2020-10-02T05:04:04Z beach: dbotton_pc: But, more importantly, there is absolutely no reason to declare if FIXNUM. 2020-10-02T05:04:09Z dbotton_pc: I likely would still keep and indicate that 2020-10-02T05:04:24Z dbotton_pc: ok 2020-10-02T05:04:25Z no-defun-allowed: Even on SBCL, the value of (expt 2 32) may not be a FIXNUM on some machines. 2020-10-02T05:04:42Z beach: no-defun-allowed is right, INTEGER is better, but still not a good way to teach Common Lisp. 2020-10-02T05:04:48Z dbotton_pc: i'll try and choose a better type 2020-10-02T05:05:41Z beach: dbotton_pc: You need to indicate the same approximation for PUSH and POP. Basically every time the explanation contains the variable more than once. 2020-10-02T05:05:47Z dbotton_pc: I want to still indicate the compiler is as smart to static check if desired 2020-10-02T05:06:08Z beach: dbotton_pc: That is definitely the wrong way to start learning Common Lisp. 2020-10-02T05:06:10Z dbotton_pc: ok 2020-10-02T05:06:30Z dbotton_pc: when I get further down to those operators i'll run it by again 2020-10-02T05:06:48Z dbotton_pc: those were some tables i got from a tut on line and copied for now 2020-10-02T05:07:02Z no-defun-allowed: Also, for reference, generics can be achieved using static typing, but usually programmers that use static typing use the word "generics", so you may know that already. 2020-10-02T05:07:08Z beach: I am sorry to hear that. Especially if it did not mention that they are approximations. 2020-10-02T05:08:15Z no-defun-allowed: (It would be polite to record and cite what reference materials you copy as well.) 2020-10-02T05:08:26Z dbotton_pc: beach, we will see 2020-10-02T05:08:38Z dbotton_pc: if wrong way in the end :) 2020-10-02T05:09:11Z beach: You are free to do what you want, of course, but since you asked for remarks... 2020-10-02T05:09:33Z dbotton_pc: I will likely change much but I think need to speak Algol not lisp to Algol brains 2020-10-02T05:09:55Z no-defun-allowed: I think you should try not to mess up if you're writing a book aimed at people who aren't as experienced with Lisp. 2020-10-02T05:10:03Z dbotton_pc: no-defun-allowed if I keep for sure 2020-10-02T05:10:13Z dbotton_pc: will atribute 2020-10-02T05:11:06Z dbotton_pc: well is my notes to teach my self first and one I actually know lisp if still think worthwhile (and others) figure worth sharing wider 2020-10-02T05:11:57Z beach: dbotton_pc: Your grammar is strange. It is hard to parse what you write here. 2020-10-02T05:12:49Z dbotton_pc: sometimes I am sure, it is more notes, need to rewrite if do more with it for sure 2020-10-02T05:12:57Z no-defun-allowed: From observation, people get excited and either write questionable Lisp implementations or books early on. I did the former several years ago, and I think you should thoroughly shake out the Algol programmer in your head (and eventually in your readers' heads) before embarking on either. 2020-10-02T05:13:01Z aeth: dbotton_pc: Imo, if you want to translate C-style numerical types into CL, think in terms of (unsigned-byte foo) or (signed-byte foo) which are a more verbose equivalent to intfoo_t or uintfoo_t, rather than fixnum. Of course, they might be bignums or fixnums depending on specifics. 2020-10-02T05:14:03Z beach: dbotton_pc: Like, I would have written "I need to rewrite it if I do more with it, for sure", rather than "need to rewrite if do more with it for sure" 2020-10-02T05:14:08Z aeth: Code that works heavily with CFFI might wind up with deftypes like this: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zr-utils/-/blob/074aa28b798309c15ef1cc4f0407f36bb1ec91cd/types.lisp#L26-38 2020-10-02T05:14:48Z aeth: (Another alternative is to make (int *) short for (signed-byte *) and (uint *) short for (unsigned-byte *) and only define two.) 2020-10-02T05:15:15Z dbotton_pc: appreciated beach 2020-10-02T05:15:53Z beach: dbotton_pc: Maybe English is not your native language? If so, next time, I'll check not only the code in your tutorial, but the text as well. 2020-10-02T05:16:54Z aeth: Oh, and INTEGER can also be used to set bounds, so instead of using the type INTEGER itself you could use e.g. (integer 4 37) 2020-10-02T05:16:57Z dbotton_pc: English is my native tongue by had a stroke 2 years ago, so may be part of it :) Plus I do speak hebrew half the day 2020-10-02T05:17:08Z beach: I see. 2020-10-02T05:17:11Z dbotton_pc: so likely the structure a bit off 2020-10-02T05:17:24Z dbotton_pc: aeth good idea 2020-10-02T05:17:30Z beach: dbotton_pc: Reading a bit of your text in that tutorial, I can see that it could benefit from some copy editiing. 2020-10-02T05:17:35Z beach: editing 2020-10-02T05:18:15Z dbotton_pc: I really appreciate the input 2020-10-02T05:18:29Z beach: Good! 2020-10-02T05:18:55Z dbotton_pc: I will keep plugging away 2020-10-02T05:19:37Z iissaacc: I would be happy to review the text. I'm not a very experienced programmer but I am a linguist 2020-10-02T05:19:47Z dbotton_pc: my plan is once ready to port a project I created in Ada 2020-10-02T05:19:50Z dbotton_pc: http://gnoga.com/#tools 2020-10-02T05:19:53Z iissaacc: got plenty of time at the moment 2020-10-02T05:20:02Z beach: iissaacc: Oh, that can come in handy. 2020-10-02T05:20:12Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-10-02T05:20:40Z dbotton_pc: I use websockets to make the browser a dumb terminal 2020-10-02T05:21:02Z dbotton_pc: send across javascript but all login on server side 2020-10-02T05:22:02Z iissaacc: beach: yeah? I'm your man for anything linguistics or just writing related 2020-10-02T05:22:30Z iissaacc: keen to contribute to things so I can soak up more lisp knowledge 2020-10-02T05:23:39Z iissaacc: (and so I can brag on my CV...) 2020-10-02T05:29:53Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-02T05:30:41Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-02T05:31:48Z dbotton_pc: have to get some sleep, thank you all 2020-10-02T05:32:18Z dbotton_pc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T05:34:23Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T05:34:49Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-02T05:34:53Z beach: iissaacc: I was thinking about the significant task (that I often take on) to check the (Common Lisp related) writing of non-native speakers of English. 2020-10-02T05:35:32Z beach: iissaacc: Depending on the native language of the writer, the problems are always the same, so it can get a bit boring sometimes. 2020-10-02T05:36:16Z beach: Even for native speakers, an omitted comma can change the meaning of the sentence, and stuff like that is hard to spot by the author. 2020-10-02T05:42:22Z blackadder joined #lisp 2020-10-02T05:42:45Z blackadder quit (Changing host) 2020-10-02T05:42:45Z blackadder joined #lisp 2020-10-02T05:45:24Z iissaacc: Indeed, and L2 speakers often use syntax that sounds strange for a native speaker and can impede understanding of content that needs to be precisely expressed 2020-10-02T05:45:57Z beach: Exactly! 2020-10-02T05:46:27Z iissaacc: Plus I find it helps me think about the topic from different angles when I discuss it with a reviewer 2020-10-02T05:47:42Z beach: You mean when you are the author? 2020-10-02T05:50:11Z iissaacc: yes 2020-10-02T05:51:35Z iissaacc: My MA supervisor is not a native English speaker, so I had to be more careful with my verbal explanations and that often helped me find holes in my ideas 2020-10-02T05:52:32Z beach: Interesting. 2020-10-02T05:54:53Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-02T06:04:48Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:06:42Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T06:07:13Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:10:24Z ludston: Consider: using slang and colloquial language can be a substitute for good grammar, excluding esl. 2020-10-02T06:13:09Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:14:08Z no-defun-allowed: That would be very unfortunate for non-native readers and translators. 2020-10-02T06:18:13Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-02T06:19:15Z edgar-rft: Let's translate all documents with Google Translator to make sure that nobody understands anything anymore. 2020-10-02T06:19:17Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:19:17Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-10-02T06:19:17Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:19:52Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-02T06:20:14Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T06:21:13Z Alfr: Make it a round trip, call it normalization, and then shred the originals. 2020-10-02T06:23:22Z no-defun-allowed: I am waiting eagerly for someone to pass the Common Lisp Hyperspec through Google Translate at least 20 times. 2020-10-02T06:31:23Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:38:11Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-02T06:42:28Z Blukunfando: Don’t forget to add a common lithp to the Hyperthpec in the firtht plathe. 2020-10-02T06:43:25Z no-defun-allowed uploaded an image: notfunny-abelson.png (125KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/bsWfNjLFICeLlhYoMkoasZTe/notfunny-abelson.png > 2020-10-02T06:43:36Z karayan joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:45:22Z jackdaniel: are there metamemes "'not funny abelson' not funny abelson" ? 2020-10-02T06:46:08Z no-defun-allowed: I am also waiting eagerly for a chain of people pointing out their "not funny" pictures aren't funny, but preferably not in #lisp. 2020-10-02T06:47:19Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:48:24Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:48:27Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:48:30Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:48:44Z iissaacc: slang and colloquial language and "good" grammar are not mutually exclusive 2020-10-02T06:49:03Z karayan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T06:49:14Z karayan joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:50:54Z jackdaniel: exactly 2020-10-02T06:51:23Z ryloric joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:52:15Z schweers joined #lisp 2020-10-02T06:52:44Z ryloric quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T06:53:12Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T07:05:07Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T07:08:28Z ludston: But slang does exclude non-native speakers, whereas good grammar helps clarify what you mean for everybody. 2020-10-02T07:10:27Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:11:31Z Blukunfando: Good grammar excludes people with a visceral disdain for good grammar and for those who make an effort to follow it. 2020-10-02T07:12:00Z cjv joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:12:30Z cjv left #lisp 2020-10-02T07:12:54Z no-defun-allowed: Hopefully there are fewer of those people then. 2020-10-02T07:13:58Z Blukunfando: Yeah, most of them probably pride themselves on not wanting anything to do with Lisp. 2020-10-02T07:14:12Z iissaacc: ludston: it depends on what you mean by slang. I've seen this opinion expressed by Americans who then pepper their writing with Americanisms which they obviously don't consider "slang"... 2020-10-02T07:15:37Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:16:07Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:16:27Z pve joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:16:29Z ludston: What I'm saying is that you can have low-status effective communication through slang, vs high status effective communication through "good english". I think it is interesting because it isn't necessarily an intuitive idea, and it's useful to try both these modes of communication when you are teaching. 2020-10-02T07:16:40Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:17:04Z no-defun-allowed: Blukunfando: Well, now that you mention it...you're not wrong. 2020-10-02T07:17:11Z jackdaniel: I think taht this discussion went beyond common lisp topic 2020-10-02T07:17:22Z blackadder quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-02T07:17:44Z jackdaniel: there is a more universal channel #lispcafe for interesting discussions like this 2020-10-02T07:20:14Z iissaacc: ludston: ah yeah we're on the same page then 2020-10-02T07:22:40Z iissaacc: *joins #lispcafe* 2020-10-02T07:23:23Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:23:29Z ldb: good afternoon 2020-10-02T07:24:53Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-02T07:25:17Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:26:15Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-02T07:26:38Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:27:23Z bocaneri is now known as Sauvin 2020-10-02T07:27:34Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:29:14Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-02T07:29:18Z beach: Hello ldb. 2020-10-02T07:32:39Z ludston: jackdaniel: it's somewhat off-topic. In a strange way a macro is a bit like slang, isn't it? i.e. Domain specific, and optimised for ease of use 2020-10-02T07:33:26Z jackdaniel: each newly introduced operator is a "slang verb", macros have irregular argument evaluation rules 2020-10-02T07:35:57Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:37:46Z _death: slang may help both lispers and nonlispers understand, e.g. I'm cdring down the street in a car 2020-10-02T07:38:11Z contrapunctus: lol 2020-10-02T07:40:00Z aeth: what is rplacd if not slang? 2020-10-02T07:43:20Z beach: Not at all. It is part of the defined vocabulary of Common Lisp. Kind of like the equivalent of the contents of the "dictionnaire de l'académie française". 2020-10-02T07:45:25Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:46:32Z ludston: I'm not sure I agree, because most operators, i.e. named functions are isomorphs of real life/English problems modelled with existing comp-sci concepts and are as such not extending the vocab of lisp as much as just being an expression of an existing language. 2020-10-02T07:46:47Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T07:47:36Z loke: If you use the term "rplacd" when discussing C++, I'll be perfectly happy accepting that as slang. 2020-10-02T07:47:46Z loke: But in the context of Lisp it has a very precise meaning. 2020-10-02T07:53:13Z ludston: the more I think about it, the less anagolous it feels, but we do avoid writing macros for pretty much the same reasons we avoid using slang: the outgroup has to jump a learning wall 2020-10-02T07:54:08Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:54:09Z dbotton_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T07:55:22Z ck_: I didn't know we were avoiding macros :o 2020-10-02T07:56:06Z no-defun-allowed: Would I prefer for the outgroup to read the crap my macros expand to then? 2020-10-02T07:56:55Z ldb: After trying to migrating 2k lines of a OCaml syntax tree walker I think macro is a precious feature 2020-10-02T07:57:04Z ludston: ck_: The rule is, prefer defun to defmacro, except when defmacro is better. Rephrased is "avoid defmacro" 2020-10-02T07:57:54Z _death: much of the jargon file is still relevant.. 2020-10-02T07:59:16Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T07:59:23Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T07:59:42Z no-defun-allowed: The "rule" is nonsensical for things you can't do without DEFMACRO, like generating parsers, and unpleasant for something like INVOKE-WITH-RESOURCE instead of WITH-RESOURCE. 2020-10-02T08:00:28Z ludston: no-defun-allowed: only if you didn't read the second half of the rule 2020-10-02T08:01:18Z no-defun-allowed: It's a bit like saying "I after E except before C and except for ". 2020-10-02T08:01:40Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T08:02:56Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:03:30Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T08:03:33Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T08:04:00Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:04:41Z ldb: it's just a over simplification to staging limitation 2020-10-02T08:04:42Z X-Scale joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:06:45Z ludston: no-defun-allowed: I will also accept, "It's tautological". But it's the kind of heuristic you find on corporate style-guides, learned through pain. 2020-10-02T08:08:43Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T08:08:53Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:11:03Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:11:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T08:11:30Z no-defun-allowed: ludston: My apologies, I only come up with long formal words unintentionally. 2020-10-02T08:12:44Z White_Flame quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-02T08:13:07Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T08:13:53Z White_Flame joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:16:13Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:19:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:20:40Z aeth: Tell people not to use macros. If there's a problem that can only elegantly be solved via macros, then they'll use them anyway. It should be a guideline, not a rule. 2020-10-02T08:25:08Z davepdotorg quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-10-02T08:28:24Z ljavorsk__ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:29:17Z jackdaniel: PG had a compelling argument against this line of thinking. Even when you have bunch of functions you still need to "learn" what they do, well written macros actually reduce amount of things to learn 2020-10-02T08:29:50Z jackdaniel: i.e (with-foo …) is much easier to use than remembering, that after calling init-foo, you need to wrap the body in unwind protect and call destroy-foo in the end 2020-10-02T08:30:09Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:30:59Z jackdaniel: another noteworthy practice which I pick from McCLIM, is that when you write a macro accepting a body, write also a function which accepts the continuation with said body 2020-10-02T08:31:13Z jackdaniel: and make said macro expand to this function 2020-10-02T08:31:18Z aeth: Macros are only straightforward when you stick to established patterns: define-foo, with-foo, do-foo, foo-case/case-foo, etc. 2020-10-02T08:31:24Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:32:32Z jackdaniel: (with-foo (xxx) a b c) ; -> (flet ((gensym-cont () a b c)) (invoke-with-foo xxx #'gensym-cont)) 2020-10-02T08:33:31Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-02T08:34:25Z ljavorsk__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-02T08:35:32Z _death: one way to write programs is to come up with an interface by thinking about functions, and then spread a thin layer of macros to make things prettier.. another way is to come up with a macro form that describes the class of problems you want to solve, and have the implementation come out of that.. both ways are useful at times 2020-10-02T08:38:39Z todun joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:39:35Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:44:11Z todun quit (Quit: todun) 2020-10-02T08:49:10Z _death: for the latter, I am reminded of https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-12/msg01070.html 2020-10-02T08:49:50Z ebrasca: I love do-* macros. 2020-10-02T08:50:50Z treflip: "with-foo macros" are the best <3 2020-10-02T08:50:51Z dra joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:51:08Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-02T08:51:15Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-02T08:52:49Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T09:06:10Z treflip quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T09:06:34Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-02T09:07:34Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-02T09:10:04Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-02T09:12:00Z treflip quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T09:13:54Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-02T09:21:22Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-02T09:23:29Z iissaacc: the hunchentoot source is pretty amazing 2020-10-02T09:23:47Z iissaacc: quality documentation everywhere 2020-10-02T09:26:29Z srhm joined #lisp 2020-10-02T09:30:05Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-02T09:33:22Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T09:36:44Z frgo quit 2020-10-02T09:37:17Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T09:41:14Z jackdaniel: so-called ediware is known for its quality 2020-10-02T09:41:14Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T09:42:49Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-02T09:44:51Z ted_wroclaw: Agreed Edi Weitz is a gift from heaven. His book is extremely helpful as well. 2020-10-02T09:51:32Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T09:52:56Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T09:53:51Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T09:53:52Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T09:58:17Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-02T09:58:45Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-10-02T09:59:22Z schweers: His book is Common Lisp Recipies, right? 2020-10-02T09:59:24Z Nilby joined #lisp 2020-10-02T09:59:33Z phoe: t 2020-10-02T10:05:42Z jackdaniel: (clr (cons a b)) ; -> . 2020-10-02T10:06:11Z phoe: wait, what is clr 2020-10-02T10:06:22Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-02T10:06:45Z no-defun-allowed: Contents of the Lower dot thing Register 2020-10-02T10:08:01Z edgar-rft: schweers: Common Lisp Recipies is authored by Edi Weitz if that's what you wanted to know. 2020-10-02T10:08:22Z PuercoPop quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T10:08:56Z no-defun-allowed: jackdaniel's example is wrong, actually: if b is a list, then (clr (cons a b) ⇒ 2020-10-02T10:09:27Z no-defun-allowed: I may have dropped a paren. (clr (cons a b)) ⇒ 2020-10-02T10:13:25Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-02T10:16:22Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T10:16:41Z jackdaniel: right, and if b is a dot, then (clr (cons a b)) ; -> a 2020-10-02T10:17:24Z jackdaniel: (that's for backward compatibility with vack lisp) 2020-10-02T10:18:11Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T10:19:30Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-02T10:23:01Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T10:26:04Z dbotton quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out) 2020-10-02T10:27:00Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-02T10:34:48Z starch joined #lisp 2020-10-02T10:44:43Z kreyren quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T10:46:09Z schweers: edgar-rft: I wanted to know which book(s) Weitz wrote, but that’s close enough) ; 2020-10-02T10:56:36Z mmohammadi98120 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T10:58:13Z sonologico quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T10:58:25Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-02T11:00:09Z mmohammadi9812 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T11:02:00Z ramHero quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T11:02:23Z mmohammadi98120 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-02T11:03:16Z mmohammadi98126 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T11:05:03Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp 2020-10-02T11:05:34Z mmohammadi9812 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-02T11:08:13Z mmohammadi98126 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T11:09:19Z ted_wroclaw quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-02T11:23:48Z sts-q quit 2020-10-02T11:28:15Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-02T11:29:55Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2020-10-02T11:30:11Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-02T11:37:07Z treflip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T11:37:31Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-02T11:37:31Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-02T11:39:47Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T11:41:22Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T11:42:05Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-02T11:42:14Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T11:43:42Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-02T11:45:36Z edgar-rft: schweers: Edi Weitz wrote lots of stuff, mainly about math and most texts are in German, and you're right, it's surprisingly hard to find a list with all the stuff he wrote, or at least I have no link to offer :-( 2020-10-02T11:46:25Z schweers: I found some of his stuff on amazon, and yes, some of it is in german. Luckily, I understand german :) 2020-10-02T11:48:10Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T11:50:01Z Xach: a secret power 2020-10-02T11:50:53Z no-defun-allowed: A useful skill for reading philosophy and Lisp books (same thing amirite). 2020-10-02T11:53:37Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-02T11:53:40Z orivej_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T11:56:57Z karayan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T11:57:14Z ck_: Excellent idea.. Schopenhauer Common Lisp 2020-10-02T11:57:51Z easye: no-defun-allowed: reading the French philosophers can be a little bit more fun. 2020-10-02T11:58:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-02T11:58:44Z no-defun-allowed: Being able to read French also makes another range of Lisp and philosophy books available, yes. 2020-10-02T11:59:36Z easye can't read French, and can barely read German, so makes do with the English translations. 2020-10-02T11:59:44Z dra: Les Langages Lisp. 2020-10-02T11:59:44Z edgar-rft: Some links from Edi's Homepage at the Hamburg University -> http://weitz.de/KMFI/ http://weitz.de/EDG/ https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783764361242 2020-10-02T12:02:11Z ramHero joined #lisp 2020-10-02T12:02:56Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T12:05:24Z edgar-rft: Edi Weitz "How the strengths of Lisp-family languages facilitate building complex and flexible bioinformatics applications" -> https://academic.oup.com/bib/article/19/3/537/2769437?keytype=ref&ijkey=vUZP0qQU2fX0CkP 2020-10-02T12:22:32Z vidak` joined #lisp 2020-10-02T12:26:10Z rgherdt_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T12:27:36Z rgherdt__ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T12:29:25Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T12:30:55Z rgherdt_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T12:32:36Z rgherdt__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T12:49:53Z starch quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2020-10-02T12:52:31Z orivej_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T12:53:43Z luckless_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T12:54:30Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-02T12:57:47Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T12:58:17Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-02T12:59:00Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-02T12:59:51Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:00:39Z ayuce joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:06:16Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:07:52Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:09:27Z dlowe: just need to translate them all to lojban, the true lisp-like language 2020-10-02T13:09:41Z dlowe: otherwise you're stuck in an NxM translation matrix 2020-10-02T13:10:27Z treflip quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T13:12:53Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-02T13:12:56Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:14:36Z docl joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:16:55Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T13:17:33Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:18:23Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:19:07Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T13:22:14Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:24:47Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T13:26:28Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T13:26:46Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:27:23Z luckless_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:31:07Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T13:34:54Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:34:55Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-02T13:39:07Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T13:39:35Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:39:39Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T13:40:07Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:40:35Z ayuce quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T13:43:20Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:43:22Z ldb quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2020-10-02T13:43:42Z achilles left #lisp 2020-10-02T13:44:37Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-02T13:46:08Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:46:48Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:48:25Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T13:48:28Z jackdaniel: beach: I'm using flexichain now and its design is very elegant to me, thanks for this library 2020-10-02T13:48:45Z beach: Oh, great! Glad you like it! 2020-10-02T13:48:45Z enrio joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:49:21Z beach: I would have picked different names for the operators, had I done it today. 2020-10-02T13:50:20Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:50:28Z beach: Maybe I can convince no-defun-allowed to create a version 2 with better names. 2020-10-02T13:50:39Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-02T13:51:42Z jackdaniel: names are fine, I don't think that it would be a good use of time (for it being a cosmetic issue) 2020-10-02T13:51:54Z beach: You may be right. 2020-10-02T13:57:23Z grumble is now known as Spooktober 2020-10-02T13:58:37Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:00:50Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:01:07Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:04:02Z achilles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T14:04:20Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:04:23Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:12:34Z jackdaniel: I wonder if standard-cursorchain should be instantiable given not all flexicursor protocol functions are implemented for it (i.e cursor-pos) - unlike left/right-sticky-flexicursor 2020-10-02T14:12:58Z achilles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T14:13:24Z beach: I am afraid I don't remember enough of it to say. 2020-10-02T14:14:14Z pankajgodbole joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:14:23Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:14:48Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:17:14Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:23:26Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:26:19Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:26:58Z ft joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:27:58Z davepdot_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T14:28:34Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:28:35Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:28:37Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:29:10Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T14:29:24Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:29:26Z yonkunas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:29:36Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:29:38Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:30:05Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T14:31:11Z gaqwas[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:31:45Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:32:05Z ft joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:32:17Z gaqwas[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:32:19Z achilles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T14:32:49Z kelamir[m] quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:33:32Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:34:10Z mjl joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:34:16Z entel_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:35:00Z IAmRasputin: Hello, I'm trying to write a function that prompts a user (me) for credentials to authenticate against an API, and it works, but it displays the password as I type it. I'd like it to not do this, either echoing nothing or echoing * in place of chartacters. Is it possible to implement this? 2020-10-02T14:35:18Z phoe: IAmRasputin: do you use a terminal? 2020-10-02T14:35:19Z chewbranca quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:35:26Z phoe: or some other means of inputting data? 2020-10-02T14:35:37Z phoe: e.g. a slime repl? 2020-10-02T14:35:50Z IAmRasputin: phoe: mainly I use the slime repl, but eventually I'd like to use a plain terminal 2020-10-02T14:36:17Z phoe: in the slime REPL, I don't know if that's easily doable; you'd need to introduce some sort of modification to the slime-repl mode. 2020-10-02T14:36:58Z IAmRasputin: Eh, I was afraid of that, but I don't suspect that the slime REPL will be the primary means of interacting with this once it's "done" 2020-10-02T14:36:59Z phoe: in terminal, you'd possibly want to switch to a raw mode and start from there; I think cl-charms can help with that. 2020-10-02T14:37:01Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:37:13Z IAmRasputin: Great, I'll check that out. Thanks! 2020-10-02T14:38:00Z phoe: it's not really a Lisp question per se; it's more of a question of how to interface with the terminal 2020-10-02T14:38:56Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:39:20Z chewbranca joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:39:27Z dra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T14:39:44Z XachX joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:39:44Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:39:58Z yottabyte quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:40:29Z pent quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:40:32Z thonkpod quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-02T14:40:32Z cognemo quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-02T14:40:32Z entel quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-02T14:40:33Z boeg quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-02T14:40:33Z C-16 quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-02T14:40:33Z oldtopman quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-02T14:40:34Z entel_ is now known as entel 2020-10-02T14:40:54Z thonkpod joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:40:54Z cognemo joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:40:54Z C-16 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:40:54Z oldtopman joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:41:00Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:41:13Z boeg_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:41:31Z pent joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:42:44Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:43:16Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:44:08Z l1x joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:44:35Z mjl joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:44:37Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:45:20Z mfiano-: Xach: Could you tell me why cl-digraph is so old in the dists? I've been waiting to use it for 4 months now, since the current dist version does not work on SBCL. 2020-10-02T14:45:21Z XachX joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:46:10Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:46:10Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:46:20Z kelamir[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:46:57Z ft joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:47:43Z yottabyte quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:48:05Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-10-02T14:48:32Z mfiano-: Xach: Oh, it seems maybe you need to point to its new home. I think sjl moved his repos back to GitHub. I don't see cl-digraph on his bitbucket anymore. 2020-10-02T14:48:45Z boeg_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:49:51Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:50:19Z yottabyte joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:50:29Z TwoNotes: Which Lisp GUI package has support for OTF fonts? 2020-10-02T14:51:24Z boeg_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:51:38Z beach: You may want to ask jackdaniel or scymtym, perhaps in #clim. They know stuff like that. 2020-10-02T14:52:38Z beach: TwoNotes: Depending on what you mean by "Lisp GUI package", there aren't that many specifically made for Common Lisp. 2020-10-02T14:53:01Z TwoNotes: All the ones I have found so far are just wrappers around Tcl, gtk, etc. That's fine. 2020-10-02T14:53:19Z TwoNotes: I just need to display text in a variety of fonts 2020-10-02T14:53:44Z beach: If you want one of those, then I guess the font question has to do with those libraries, and not so much with Common Lisp. 2020-10-02T14:53:58Z beach: I know McCLIM can display in many different fonts. 2020-10-02T14:54:11Z beach: It can use TTF, but I don't know about OTF. 2020-10-02T14:54:18Z wglb` joined #lisp 2020-10-02T14:54:28Z TwoNotes: I was looking at https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/gui.html#introduction 2020-10-02T14:54:44Z beach: I use McCLIM to display Vietnamese text in large sans-serif fonts. 2020-10-02T14:54:57Z TwoNotes: For example, the gtk one, when you dig down, the support for setting text attributres is "not yet implemented" 2020-10-02T14:55:10Z phoe: qt4/qtools should support OTF 2020-10-02T14:55:15Z TwoNotes: beach, ah that sounds like what I need then 2020-10-02T14:55:19Z beach: TwoNotes: I recommend McCLIM. 2020-10-02T14:55:26Z wglb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T14:55:29Z beach: *sigh* OK. 2020-10-02T14:56:39Z phoe: but I never really loaded an OTF font in qtools myself 2020-10-02T14:57:10Z edgar-rft: duckduckgo found this -> https://github.com/Failproofshark/cl-sdl2-ttf 2020-10-02T14:57:22Z mfiano-: An old issue says that McCLIM ignores OTF files. I'm not sure if that is still the case 2020-10-02T14:57:45Z mfiano-: In any case, you can just use FreeType2 with CFFI, but that is not Lisp and I cannot really recommend that path 2020-10-02T14:57:56Z scymtym: for McCLIM, the situation is like this, the ffi-based "harfbuzz"-based font rendering supports all the bells and whistles, the non-ffi-based font rendering supports a subset of OTF (TTF and TTC, but not CFF and WOFF) 2020-10-02T14:58:09Z scymtym is working on more complete OTF support 2020-10-02T14:58:27Z beach: scymtym: Thanks. It seems non-Lisp solutions are preferred. 2020-10-02T14:58:35Z TwoNotes: I will be working with the "sitelen pona" font, which makes use of some of the advanced OTF features. 2020-10-02T14:58:51Z scymtym: TwoNotes: is the font available for donwload? 2020-10-02T14:58:56Z scymtym: *download 2020-10-02T14:59:08Z TwoNotes: I have to look where I got it from. A moment 2020-10-02T14:59:25Z TwoNotes: If yo udo not know some toki pona, it will not be greatly useful :) 2020-10-02T14:59:27Z scymtym: beach: i thought the information might be interesting to some anyway 2020-10-02T14:59:30Z mfiano-: edgar-rft: It's completely broken and doesn't work 2020-10-02T14:59:52Z beach: scymtym: Certainly to me. 2020-10-02T15:00:13Z scymtym: TwoNotes: i can likely still see which OTF features it uses and maybe estimate how much work would be needed to support it 2020-10-02T15:00:33Z TwoNotes: Ok, the font name is actualy "linja pona" and its web site is http://musilili.net/linja-pona/ 2020-10-02T15:01:00Z TwoNotes: There are two versions, depending on how you want to construct the glyphs 2020-10-02T15:01:10Z ecraven- joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:01:55Z mfiano-: The author has been unresponsive and hasn't kept up with the needed changes (currently he mis-manages foreign memory which results in constant memory corruption). One of many reasons why I cannot recommend a foreign library for such trivial tasks. 2020-10-02T15:02:15Z enrioog joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:02:19Z ecraven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T15:02:19Z ecraven- is now known as ecraven 2020-10-02T15:03:42Z edgar-rft: The OTF Standard is from 1996, so it's too new for Common Lisp :-) 2020-10-02T15:04:11Z enrio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T15:04:32Z TwoNotes: It is more a matter of the graphics packages supporting it, not the language. 2020-10-02T15:04:48Z phoe: TwoNotes: edgar forgot a /s 2020-10-02T15:04:52Z TwoNotes: ha 2020-10-02T15:05:02Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:06:11Z kaftejiman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T15:06:43Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-02T15:06:58Z achilles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T15:07:17Z scymtym: TwoNotes: that is true. adding the missing features on the font-format level seems doable. adding the missing features to the renderer could be harder 2020-10-02T15:07:35Z ft joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:08:16Z scymtym: (the fonts uses a CFF table which means, zpb-ttf cannot open it, but i already implemented most of CFF) 2020-10-02T15:08:28Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T15:09:06Z scymtym: sorry for the (more than usual) erratic typing. 6 hour video conference just ended 2020-10-02T15:09:19Z beach: Wow. 2020-10-02T15:11:24Z mfiano-: Was it Lisp related? :) 2020-10-02T15:11:47Z scymtym: i wish 2020-10-02T15:12:15Z TwoNotes: I have used the linja pona font in the libreOffice word processor and it works fine there. It is unusual in that takes entire words in text to make a single glyph. 2020-10-02T15:12:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit 2020-10-02T15:13:00Z mfiano-: I've been trying to partake in more Lisp-related live streams. phoe's streams have been too early for me, but I try. 2020-10-02T15:13:55Z mfiano-: That said, we do have a Lisp developer meetup this week (today) which typically runs 6 hours. But it is highly domain-specific so I doubt any of you would like to join :) 2020-10-02T15:14:31Z iamFIREc1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-02T15:15:43Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T15:21:41Z sympt joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:24:56Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T15:25:23Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:25:27Z jackdaniel: it is worth to put emphasis (and scymtym said that) on the fact, that you may use McCLIM with the FFI library which fully supports otf 2020-10-02T15:25:48Z boeg_ quit 2020-10-02T15:25:55Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T15:26:27Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:27:18Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T15:27:37Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:27:58Z TwoNotes: Now after learning GTK for a different project, now I need to learn McCLIM.. oh well. I have the docs... 2020-10-02T15:28:17Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T15:28:44Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:29:22Z boeg_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:29:32Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T15:29:43Z jmarciano joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:29:54Z boeg_ quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-02T15:30:03Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:30:13Z boeg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:30:48Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T15:31:13Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:32:06Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver) 2020-10-02T15:32:14Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T15:32:23Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:32:26Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:32:28Z beach: TwoNotes: McCLIM is being actively developed and maintained by jackdaniel, scymtym, and several others. I am sure they would be willing to assist you if you should have problems with it. 2020-10-02T15:33:13Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T15:33:14Z TwoNotes: I have a small test program currently written for GTK. I just need to adapt it to the new API. 2020-10-02T15:33:35Z beach: TwoNotes: Plus, by using McCLIM, you help expand the set of users, and who knows, maybe you will contribute to it as well. 2020-10-02T15:33:38Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:33:47Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:34:02Z TwoNotes: And linja pona is practically a markup language so I am sure it will exercise a few new paths... 2020-10-02T15:34:34Z TwoNotes: For those not familiar with the notation, it is like a simplified Egyptian heroglyphics. 2020-10-02T15:34:36Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T15:34:42Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:34:47Z TwoNotes: Hieroglyphics. With compositing 2020-10-02T15:34:51Z dlowe: mi sona ona 2020-10-02T15:34:51Z beach: Interesting. 2020-10-02T15:35:00Z galex-713 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T15:35:02Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:35:25Z TwoNotes: Such as, proper names go in a cartouche, which the font is capable of rendering 2020-10-02T15:35:59Z TwoNotes: (You cna write toki pona just fine with Latin letters, but this font is fun to work with 2020-10-02T15:43:41Z davepdot_ quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-10-02T15:44:39Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:46:11Z edgar-rft: some day Lisp build its own pyramids 2020-10-02T15:47:07Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:48:48Z phoe: you mean balanced trees out of cons cells? 2020-10-02T15:50:26Z edgar-rft: maybe more like pyramid scheme :-) 2020-10-02T15:50:33Z phoe: :O 2020-10-02T15:51:53Z mfiano-: Xach: Regarding your cl-digraph comment on GitHub, I failed to notice that he moved to his own Mercurial host. I am confused why it hasn't been updated since February. 2020-10-02T15:52:20Z mfiano-: Quicklisp dist version that is. The commits in his Mercurial repository are much more recent 2020-10-02T15:52:37Z Xach: It was my mistake, I merged too late. It will be fixed in the next release. 2020-10-02T15:52:39Z mfiano-: I only bring it up because the version tracked by QL is broken 2020-10-02T15:52:59Z Xach: The next release will use his new repo 2020-10-02T15:53:10Z mfiano-: Ok thank you. 2020-10-02T15:55:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-02T15:57:19Z aeth joined #lisp 2020-10-02T15:59:01Z ljavorsk_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-02T15:59:46Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-10-02T16:01:16Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T16:01:59Z sammich quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2020-10-02T16:04:33Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T16:06:49Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T16:12:06Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-02T16:12:35Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-10-02T16:20:43Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T16:22:31Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T16:23:45Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-02T16:23:49Z TheInformaticist joined #lisp 2020-10-02T16:24:28Z TheInformaticist: Have any of you read Anatomy of Lisp? If yes, what did you think of it? 2020-10-02T16:24:39Z beach: Great book. 2020-10-02T16:24:53Z beach: A bit old, but still quite good. 2020-10-02T16:25:11Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T16:25:28Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-10-02T16:26:27Z TheInformaticist: beach: What did you like about it? 2020-10-02T16:27:06Z beach: It was a while ago, but I remember the part about how to represent various aspects of an implementation, like environments, etc. 2020-10-02T16:28:48Z even4void joined #lisp 2020-10-02T16:29:54Z beach: Starting with chapter 5 I guess. 2020-10-02T16:30:40Z beach: I mean, the previous chapters are good too, but the concrete description of the representation of various things was what taught me a lot. 2020-10-02T16:30:48Z enrioog quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T16:31:13Z mseddon: yeah, they cover weizembaum environments and everything 2020-10-02T16:32:13Z mseddon: uh. weizenbaum* 2020-10-02T16:33:25Z jmarciano quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T16:33:56Z mseddon: it is very oriented toward Lisp 1.5 though. 2020-10-02T16:34:37Z beach: I don't think much else existed at the time the book was written. 2020-10-02T16:34:49Z mseddon: maclisp did, but obviously it was totally inaccessible to most people 2020-10-02T16:35:21Z mseddon: (1978, says my copy here) 2020-10-02T16:35:47Z beach: Yeah, OK, so several Lisps existed. Maclisp and Interlisp. 2020-10-02T16:36:11Z mseddon: but the lisp at YOUR university was going to be a Lisp 1.5 derivative. 2020-10-02T16:36:16Z mseddon: so it's a good book, really. 2020-10-02T16:37:12Z beach: I was actually taught Lisp using some Interlisp variant, maybe around 1977 or so. 2020-10-02T16:37:38Z beach: And the research group then used Interlisp as well. 2020-10-02T16:38:03Z mseddon: was it as user friendly as it was made out to be? I find looking at interlisp source inpenetrable, but I've never really played with it. 2020-10-02T16:38:13Z TheInformaticist: beach: mseddon: Right. I notice in the bibliography it mentions a couple of the Lambda papers, and in the Preface he mentions Guy Steele. Man, was there anything that Guy Steele didn't leave his fingerprints on? He must be one of the most brilliant guys of the 20th century, and yet most don't know about him. 2020-10-02T16:38:48Z mseddon: TheInformaticist: GLS very importantly showed that you could do lexical binding efficiently, among other things. 2020-10-02T16:38:48Z beach: mseddon: We used only a small subset of it for a very short period of time. It might as well have been 1.5 or MacLisp for what we were doing. 2020-10-02T16:39:15Z mseddon: beach: ah right. that would make sens 2020-10-02T16:39:16Z beach: TheInformaticist: Oh, he is quite famous. 2020-10-02T16:39:33Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T16:39:37Z mseddon: All hail the great Quux :) 2020-10-02T16:40:45Z beach: TheInformaticist: He was involved in Java, for instance. 2020-10-02T16:42:20Z TheInformaticist: beach: Yeah, I know. I'm a little disappointed in him for that. As he told the author of Anatomy of Lisp: That's not a compromise. That's a bloody surrender! 2020-10-02T16:42:57Z mseddon: TheInformaticist: he was hired because he'd already been in charge of two very successful standards, RnRs and Common lisp. 2020-10-02T16:43:01Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-02T16:43:42Z mseddon: But forces being what they are in the corporate world, I'm certain he got a lot of push-back to do anything too drastic. 2020-10-02T16:44:45Z TheInformaticist: Well, I'm sure he was well paid. I got the impression from remarks that he made in a talk that he felt his efforts with Lisp, especially Scheme, had been a failure. 2020-10-02T16:45:07Z Nilby quit (Read error: No route to host) 2020-10-02T16:45:21Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-02T16:45:27Z TheInformaticist: ...because Common Lisp and Scheme did not go on to dominate the industry. 2020-10-02T16:47:20Z tfb: mseddon: Interlisp was user-friendly ... if you were one of the fair folk. But if you used it for long enough you became one, or at least got half way. 2020-10-02T16:49:49Z mseddon: tfb: right. I figured it must have been fairly decent, at least with the right tutoring 2020-10-02T16:50:14Z mseddon: learning an emulator for it is on my list, but gah, time. 2020-10-02T16:50:28Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp 2020-10-02T16:51:28Z arpunk joined #lisp 2020-10-02T16:51:36Z dlowe: grumble grumble can't symbol-macrolet a special variable grumble 2020-10-02T16:52:04Z jurov_ is now known as jurov 2020-10-02T16:52:05Z ludston quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T16:52:41Z tfb: The Medley-revival project should be well-worth looking at (assuming you want to spend several years trapped in faerie. Which actuwll 2020-10-02T16:53:16Z tfb: ... which actually seems quite appealing... 2020-10-02T16:53:53Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-02T16:55:07Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T16:55:53Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-10-02T16:55:55Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T16:56:50Z mseddon: I spent a good amount of time playing with MacLisp on ITS, so it's definitely on my list, particularly since it's so different from common lisp 2020-10-02T16:59:06Z TheInformaticist: mseddon: Really? How is it different? 2020-10-02T17:00:01Z TheInformaticist: mseddon: I honestly would like to know...I've wanted to know more about Maclisp since it inspired Emacs Lisp. 2020-10-02T17:00:11Z ym555 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T17:00:41Z mseddon: oh, maclisp is different is less ways from common lisp. No CLOS, obviously, a few names here and there, but interlisp is wildly different 2020-10-02T17:01:12Z mseddon: TheInformaticist: https://github.com/PDP-10/its/ this is where you can play with it if you like. Also includes EMACS on the PDP-10, all the good stuff. :) 2020-10-02T17:01:37Z TheInformaticist: mseddon: Oh, OK. Hey, that's cool :-) Thanks. 2020-10-02T17:01:49Z mseddon: np! careful, it's a black hole :) 2020-10-02T17:02:15Z ludston joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:02:59Z tfb: TheInformaticist: also Interlisp's idea of what a programming environment should be like -- a world where you edit list structure in memory and the filesystem is this incidental thing -- isjust wil 2020-10-02T17:03:52Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:03:55Z tfb: ... is just wildly different to anything modern. (I need to stop typing on this crappy tablet, sorry) 2020-10-02T17:04:00Z mseddon: yeah, interlisp is all about a persistent environment. you are mostly modifying s-exprs directly. it's this whole crazy thing. 2020-10-02T17:04:43Z TheInformaticist: Ohhhhh, ITS! I've been stumbling across references to this for years! That's awesome. 2020-10-02T17:05:14Z srhm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T17:05:19Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:06:18Z TheInformaticist: tfb: mseddon: Emacs is kind of like that, wouldn't you say? 2020-10-02T17:06:52Z mseddon: no. emacs source files are still text. interlisps are literally the sexprs hanging off the fdefinition property list on a symbol. 2020-10-02T17:07:02Z mseddon: the editor edits an sexpr, not a text buffer. 2020-10-02T17:07:18Z tfb: No. Emacs is a cheap LispM, Interlisp was a whole other world. 2020-10-02T17:08:03Z dlowe: where do the comments go? 2020-10-02T17:08:05Z TheInformaticist: mseddon: I see. I'll have to try it out. Is Interlisp written in PDP-10 assembly? 2020-10-02T17:09:01Z mseddon: interlisp was ported across many platforms for many years. 2020-10-02T17:09:13Z mseddon: dlowe: they go on (COMMENT THIS IS TOTALLY UGLY) 2020-10-02T17:09:43Z mseddon: but I think tfb can probably clarify. basically you had some syntax that the evaluator ignore it I believe. 2020-10-02T17:09:52Z dlowe: I was thinking that's what it might be 2020-10-02T17:09:53Z treflip: Is there an object system in Interlisp? 2020-10-02T17:10:00Z mseddon: there was common LOOPS 2020-10-02T17:10:55Z mseddon: on which I think clos was partly based, the lispm guys were faffing around with flavors, which is single dispatch and a bit ugly 2020-10-02T17:11:08Z TheInformaticist: mseddon: Sorry. I was confusing Maclisp and Interlisp. 2020-10-02T17:11:28Z mseddon: ah, no, maclisp did not have an object system. lisp machine lisp added flavours, which symbolics also inherited. 2020-10-02T17:11:59Z mseddon: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/MIT/nnnfla1-20040122.pdf 2020-10-02T17:12:28Z mseddon: though genera added common lisp when it game out, I have no idea if knight etc also did. 2020-10-02T17:12:31Z tfb: treflip: PCL was Portable Common LOOPS, which came from Common LOOPS, which came from LOOPS. Many CLOS implementations have fairly direct PCL ancestry I think, still. 2020-10-02T17:12:56Z treflip: Cool 2020-10-02T17:13:07Z mseddon: aha. and yes, PCL does seem to regularly pop up when I peek into a CLOS implementation, in some weird form. 2020-10-02T17:13:46Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-02T17:13:57Z tfb: I wish I could remember the release names for PCL. Victoria day, Rainy day were two 2020-10-02T17:15:10Z achilles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T17:16:09Z tfb: (also for the interlisp-D releases: harmony, koto, lyric, medley are the ones I know. a rumour that the next one would be 'new wave') 2020-10-02T17:16:27Z rtypo joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:17:48Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:18:32Z gareppa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-02T17:20:17Z pankajgo` joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:23:19Z ludston quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T17:23:53Z pankajgodbole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T17:24:30Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T17:24:50Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:26:01Z niceplace quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-02T17:26:18Z niceplace joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:27:09Z Steeve joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:29:56Z pankajgo` quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T17:35:42Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:42:35Z ludston joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:43:43Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T17:46:01Z TheInformaticist: OK, I know I'm probably going to get yelled at, but I'm interested to know: Did any of you ever use Niklaus Wirth's operating environment (I think it is called Oberon)? If yes, was there anything really revolutionary about it? 2020-10-02T17:47:47Z mseddon: yell. offtopic. it's interesting insofar as it's trivial to write, and the structured format of the grammar means you can translate it into static single assignment form extremely efficiently. Think of it as scheme for object-pascal / Modular 3. It's fun, the spec is like 50 pages long, go play. but. offtopic. :P 2020-10-02T17:48:24Z mseddon: uh. scheme to- it's still basically pascal, whatever way you look at it. yuck. 2020-10-02T17:48:30Z TheInformaticist: :-p Great answer. Thanks. 2020-10-02T17:49:00Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-02T17:49:38Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:50:44Z TheInformaticist: You know, I like Lisp and I like Pascal...for completely different reasons. 2020-10-02T17:51:50Z midre joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:52:59Z TheInformaticist: Although I can understand why Ken Thompson criticized Pascal. But it seems like most of the original C guys act like Lisp doesn't exist. They be like, "I don't know anything about that (Kernighan)." 2020-10-02T17:53:55Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T17:56:01Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:56:34Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-02T17:56:49Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:02:09Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:07:47Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-10-02T18:09:55Z drl joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:11:05Z ludston quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-02T18:13:25Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T18:13:57Z drl quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-02T18:17:14Z Alfr joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:18:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:21:03Z ludston joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:24:11Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:24:20Z Sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T18:30:41Z ramHero quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T18:34:32Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:34:47Z ThaEwat joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:37:32Z achilles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T18:40:52Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:41:15Z krid joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:41:33Z TheInfor` joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:45:08Z jmarciano joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:45:18Z TheInformaticist quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-02T18:47:43Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-10-02T18:53:56Z jmarciano quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T18:57:44Z TheInfor` left #lisp 2020-10-02T19:03:41Z jackdaniel: here's where I've used flexichain: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/a2606b0a-flexichain.webm , fact that integration required around 20loc says plenty about how easy protocol it is 2020-10-02T19:06:46Z phoe: amazing stuff 2020-10-02T19:07:14Z jackdaniel: thanks 2020-10-02T19:10:28Z oxum quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-10-02T19:14:27Z jmarciano joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:15:44Z itoutan joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:18:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T19:19:36Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:20:05Z even4void quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-02T19:24:31Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:24:31Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-10-02T19:24:31Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:30:07Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T19:31:14Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:31:55Z itoutan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T19:38:25Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2020-10-02T19:39:55Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T19:40:09Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:42:04Z lansiir joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:42:18Z oldtopman quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T19:45:13Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-02T19:46:29Z treflip quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 2020-10-02T19:47:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:48:00Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:48:17Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T19:50:00Z v3ga joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:53:06Z _death: jackdaniel: nice.. I also used flexichain in my tui thingy 2020-10-02T19:54:11Z _death: oh, it was actually cluffer 2020-10-02T19:55:44Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:56:16Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T19:56:33Z Colleen joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:56:45Z jerme_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T19:57:05Z sgithens quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T19:57:05Z banjiewen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T19:57:05Z spacebat2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T19:57:12Z jerme_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:57:24Z spacebat2 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:57:27Z banjiewen joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:57:30Z sgithens joined #lisp 2020-10-02T19:57:45Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T20:11:23Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-10-02T20:14:17Z dra joined #lisp 2020-10-02T20:16:18Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T20:17:03Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T20:21:23Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T20:21:41Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-02T21:30:35Z sympt_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T21:30:49Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-02T21:32:58Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T21:33:14Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T21:33:14Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-02T21:33:15Z dominic34 quit (Excess Flood) 2020-10-02T21:33:34Z dominic34 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T21:34:06Z jmarcian` joined #lisp 2020-10-02T21:34:17Z mseddon: jackdaniel: that is the kind of LOC of integration code the world needs. 2020-10-02T21:34:28Z sympt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-02T21:35:22Z mseddon: jackdaniel: I'm curious, do you have your code up anywhere? It looks like a really fun, silly project. Love to see what you are doing under the hood. 2020-10-02T21:35:53Z jmarciano quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T21:42:17Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T21:44:08Z karayan joined #lisp 2020-10-02T21:44:47Z johs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T21:45:10Z johs joined #lisp 2020-10-02T21:46:23Z luckless_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T21:48:11Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T21:50:08Z Oladon quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-10-02T21:52:44Z sts-q quit 2020-10-02T22:11:16Z payphone54 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T22:12:34Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-02T22:15:23Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T22:18:00Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T22:22:47Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T22:24:07Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T22:24:44Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-02T22:29:20Z payphone54 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T22:30:50Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-02T22:32:11Z akoana left #lisp 2020-10-02T22:32:28Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T22:38:44Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-02T22:43:27Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-10-02T22:51:39Z fouric joined #lisp 2020-10-02T22:54:11Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-02T22:58:43Z achilles quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T23:05:01Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T23:16:13Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-02T23:19:55Z mindCrime_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T23:20:53Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-02T23:21:25Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T23:28:48Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T23:29:41Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-02T23:33:11Z mindCrime_ joined #lisp 2020-10-02T23:36:25Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T23:38:35Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-02T23:41:59Z dominic34 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-02T23:45:50Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-10-02T23:47:23Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-02T23:47:53Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-02T23:47:53Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-10-02T23:47:59Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-02T23:50:23Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-02T23:50:26Z ludston quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out) 2020-10-02T23:50:43Z ludston joined #lisp 2020-10-02T23:51:23Z choegusung quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-02T23:53:21Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-02T23:54:52Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-02T23:59:29Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-10-03T00:00:52Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-03T00:02:33Z aaaaaa joined #lisp 2020-10-03T00:09:06Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T00:09:17Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-03T00:10:30Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T00:12:10Z aaaaaa: Hi all. Can this book be downloaded freely or not? I can't google for PDF. http://vseloved.github.io/progalgs.html 2020-10-03T00:12:41Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp 2020-10-03T00:12:47Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-03T00:13:18Z patrixl joined #lisp 2020-10-03T00:14:32Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-03T00:15:15Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-03T00:18:29Z wglb` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T00:20:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-03T00:21:02Z rig0rmortis joined #lisp 2020-10-03T00:23:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-03T00:23:46Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-03T00:26:31Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-03T00:30:25Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T00:30:59Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2020-10-03T00:38:41Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-03T00:39:16Z kaftejiman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T00:49:06Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-03T00:49:38Z mseddon: aaaaaa: sounds a little bit like entrapment, so good luck finding suckers here. 2020-10-03T00:50:09Z mseddon: the answer is no, there is no free distribution. 2020-10-03T00:50:27Z mseddon: sorry. you will have to pay for it. 2020-10-03T00:51:20Z mseddon: apress would not be handing out freebies. 2020-10-03T00:52:44Z mseddon: you may be able to find pre-release material in the public domain, but there are no guarantees that they relate to the published artefact, which I assume you are wanting to read. 2020-10-03T00:53:06Z mseddon: sorry. them's the breaks. 2020-10-03T00:53:56Z mseddon: if you contact the author, perhaps they will release a pre-release manuscript? 2020-10-03T00:54:17Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-03T00:54:19Z mseddon: it's really between you and them, and their publisher. 2020-10-03T00:54:32Z mseddon: nobody else can help in that kind of situation. 2020-10-03T00:56:40Z rig0rmortis quit (Quit: beep boop) 2020-10-03T01:03:36Z aaaaaa: what do you mean by 'entrapment'? 2020-10-03T01:03:47Z aaaaaa: I didn't ask for pirated version, just wondered... 2020-10-03T01:04:40Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T01:07:17Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-10-03T01:09:30Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-03T01:11:10Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-03T01:18:25Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T01:20:50Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-03T01:21:28Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-10-03T01:22:20Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-10-03T01:23:01Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-03T01:25:55Z mseddon: that was me being a bit rude, sorry. 2020-10-03T01:26:09Z mseddon: unwarrented. I have had a long week, I didn't mean to offend. 2020-10-03T01:27:01Z mseddon: but sadly since it appears to be a forthcoming publication, I'd suggest you contact the author directly, since they are the final arbiter of the work. 2020-10-03T01:27:16Z mseddon: nobody else owns that, so nobody else has power to help you. 2020-10-03T01:27:56Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2020-10-03T01:28:12Z mseddon: it is ultimately, however, up to them what they do with their copyright. 2020-10-03T01:28:55Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T01:29:00Z mseddon: people are sometimes amenable though, and will give you access to pre-release material. 2020-10-03T01:29:27Z mseddon: just. be nice. respect boundaries. 2020-10-03T01:29:48Z mseddon: don't be a dick, and the rest of the ten commandments. or whatnot. 2020-10-03T01:31:22Z mseddon: anyway. generally I don't see why one would not cough up the modest sum to acknowledge the time they spent working on it, rather than haggling out of the blue. Don't you? 2020-10-03T01:38:24Z corpix joined #lisp 2020-10-03T01:46:36Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-03T01:54:28Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T01:55:10Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-03T02:08:43Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-10-03T02:11:39Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-10-03T02:14:55Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T02:23:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T02:31:20Z TwoNotes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-03T02:31:31Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T02:34:05Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T02:35:42Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-10-03T02:35:45Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-03T02:37:07Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-03T02:37:48Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T02:47:34Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-03T02:52:40Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T02:53:43Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-10-03T02:55:32Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-03T02:56:59Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 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2020-10-03T09:07:44Z enrio quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-03T09:10:24Z phoe: beach: actually, I did the proofreading in private 2020-10-03T09:10:44Z beach: Oh! I see. 2020-10-03T09:10:46Z phoe: as in, made a public call for proofreading, but invited everyone to work on a *private* Git repository 2020-10-03T09:10:58Z beach: I see, I see. Clever! 2020-10-03T09:11:30Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T09:11:35Z phoe: I specifically asked them about this, and they did not mind doing it that way as long as I did not make the text freely and publicly accessible on the 'net 2020-10-03T09:11:55Z beach: Good to know. 2020-10-03T09:12:51Z beach: I am asking because I am seriously considering changing my book "Concrete and Abstract Data Types" use Common Lisp directly, rather than translating it into a specific algorithmic language. I would then also invite some people to help me with the proofreading. 2020-10-03T09:15:45Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T09:17:40Z sm2n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T09:18:27Z motersen joined #lisp 2020-10-03T09:18:51Z sm2n joined #lisp 2020-10-03T09:19:48Z beach: Lately, I have changed my opinion about the possibility of mentioning Lisp in public, without everyone automatically stop listening immediately. Functional programming seems to be on the rise as a mainstream paradigm, Clojure is fairly popular, and "Uncle Bob" is pushing Clojure as "The Last Programming Language". 2020-10-03T09:19:50Z beach: With Apress having published several books using Common Lisp, it seems the they also don't mind mentioning Common Lisp. I assume they know something about potential clients. 2020-10-03T09:24:50Z sm2n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T09:26:29Z sm2n joined #lisp 2020-10-03T09:29:48Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-03T09:29:48Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-10-03T09:29:48Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-03T09:33:25Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T09:41:01Z ane joined #lisp 2020-10-03T09:41:10Z enrio joined #lisp 2020-10-03T09:51:48Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-03T09:57:38Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2020-10-03T09:59:47Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T10:01:46Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:01:48Z phoe: yep, I can understand that 2020-10-03T10:15:35Z he-man joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:16:08Z he-man left #lisp 2020-10-03T10:16:17Z he-man joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:16:43Z he-man: hello everyone. Looking for some help on Common Lisp. Is this the right place? Thank you very much. 2020-10-03T10:17:11Z beach: Sure. 2020-10-03T10:17:36Z beach: ... and welcome to #lisp. 2020-10-03T10:17:43Z he-man: Hello @beach. Couple of questions actually. I am developing a small program, for the sake of practicing 2020-10-03T10:18:20Z he-man: I am totally unfamiliar with the idiomatic way to load packages in general 2020-10-03T10:18:30Z beach: Go ahead! By the way, this is IRC and the `@' convention is not used. 2020-10-03T10:18:30Z he-man: In my file I define a package with defpackage 2020-10-03T10:18:45Z he-man: and I (:use :common-lisp :str) 2020-10-03T10:18:57Z beach: OK. 2020-10-03T10:19:00Z he-man: but the package is not found unless I load quicklisp and I download it 2020-10-03T10:19:36Z he-man: seems weird to me, because what I though is package download should be a one-time operation (not something I should add in my .lisp file) 2020-10-03T10:19:43Z beach: Well, to start with, you are probably confusing packages (a Common Lisp term for namespaces) and systems (what other languages call "packages"). 2020-10-03T10:19:45Z he-man: what am I doing wrong? 2020-10-03T10:20:07Z beach: With Quicklisp, you download systems, not packages. 2020-10-03T10:20:55Z he-man: so. for a workflow where I envision as 1. add my functions 2020-10-03T10:20:57Z beach: The :USE clause of a DEFPACKAGE just says that your code can use the symbols in the STR package without a package prefix. It has nothing to do with systems. 2020-10-03T10:20:59Z he-man: 2. export them 2020-10-03T10:21:09Z aeth: in CL, "packages" are just namespaces for symbols 2020-10-03T10:21:16Z he-man: yes, I know that. So I need to quickload str each time? 2020-10-03T10:21:38Z aeth: or write a .asd file in a location that Quicklisp can find 2020-10-03T10:21:50Z he-man: actually my problem is more of recognizing a structure that makes sense. 2020-10-03T10:21:50Z beach: he-man: Normally, you would create yourself an ASDF system definition file. 2020-10-03T10:21:57Z he-man: so the recommendation (as in best practice) 2020-10-03T10:22:03Z he-man: is to add a .asd file 2020-10-03T10:22:10Z he-man: which is kind of a Makefile, right? 2020-10-03T10:22:14Z beach: That file would contain a :depends-on with the names of the systems it depends on. 2020-10-03T10:22:17Z beach: Sort of, yes. 2020-10-03T10:22:39Z he-man: ok. I see 2020-10-03T10:22:51Z beach: Then, if you do (asdf:load-system ) then the dependencies will be automatically loaded first. 2020-10-03T10:23:25Z he-man: ok. Thank you very much, gonna give it a try. 2020-10-03T10:23:31Z beach: Good luck. 2020-10-03T10:23:50Z pve: beach: Perhaps the CL code could be added as some kind of supplementary material. 2020-10-03T10:24:13Z beach: pve: I don't understand what you are saying. 2020-10-03T10:25:08Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:25:30Z beach: pve: Oh, for the book? 2020-10-03T10:25:39Z pve: beach: yes, sorry 2020-10-03T10:26:46Z beach: pve: No, the problem is that my favorite coauthor was supposed to make sure the code works by creating automatic tests, but she has no time to be my favorite coauthor anymore, and I don't have time to create such a thing. That's why I am considering simplifying the entire thing by just using normal Common Lisp code that can be tested as usual. 2020-10-03T10:27:16Z beach: Adding Common Lisp code would double the amount of work for the code. 2020-10-03T10:28:18Z pve: Ok, I see, not practical then. 2020-10-03T10:29:09Z MichaelRaskin: And I guess you do not want to trust a previously unfamiliar project providing executable pseudocode (with Common Lisp translation and TeX rendering) 2020-10-03T10:31:28Z beach: What "previously unfamiliar project" are you referring to? 2020-10-03T10:32:01Z beach: I have Common Lisp code, but it is a bit doctored to simplify translation to TeX. 2020-10-03T10:32:02Z he-man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T10:32:06Z beach: And I have the TeX translation. 2020-10-03T10:32:37Z beach: But the organization of the Common Lisp code does not lend itself to automatic testing the way it is currently structured. 2020-10-03T10:32:57Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-03T10:33:08Z motersen joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:34:13Z beach: I didn't mind, because it was something that my favorite coauthor would excel in doing, and she is highly organized. But I can't face doing that myself. 2020-10-03T10:35:14Z MichaelRaskin: Hm, maybe Breanndán Ó Nualláin never published Pseudograph… 2020-10-03T10:35:29Z MichaelRaskin: (ELS2015, Executable Pseudocode for Graph Algorithms) 2020-10-03T10:35:50Z beach: I would not be able to use an existing algorithmic language if that is what you mean. 2020-10-03T10:36:08Z beach: I need generic functions, methods, packages, etc. (with different terminology of course). 2020-10-03T10:36:32Z phoe: beach: do you need help structuring your code in a way that makes it testable? 2020-10-03T10:36:41Z he-man joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:36:41Z corpix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T10:36:53Z corpix joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:37:04Z beach: phoe: That is precisely the problem, yes. 2020-10-03T10:37:05Z he-man: something I do not quite understand yet is that, when I open a session in Emacs (I already created an asd file). 2020-10-03T10:37:36Z phoe: beach: I could take a look at that someday 2020-10-03T10:37:37Z he-man: I would expect my file program.lisp to be compiled because :components ((:file "myfile.lisp")) 2020-10-03T10:37:41Z beach: he-man: You start Emacs when you boot your computer. 2020-10-03T10:37:42Z he-man: is there 2020-10-03T10:37:48Z phoe: beach: come on, not always 2020-10-03T10:37:52Z beach: phoe: Oh, that would be great! 2020-10-03T10:38:11Z phoe: he-man: (asdf:load-system :my-system) should compile-and-load this tile then 2020-10-03T10:38:15Z phoe: what happens instead? 2020-10-03T10:38:38Z he-man: mmh... I was missing that... That goes in myfile.lisp? 2020-10-03T10:38:45Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T10:38:46Z phoe: no, that goes in the REPL 2020-10-03T10:38:51Z beach: he-man: Oh, good, others to the rescue. Then I can take my lunch break. 2020-10-03T10:39:05Z phoe: when you start a Lisp image, it is completely clean and does not have any software loaded 2020-10-03T10:39:21Z phoe: you need to explicitly load it, and ASDF is the tool for that 2020-10-03T10:39:32Z he-man: @beach there is no a need to help if you are not willing to, no problem. I came here because I was told it is the place to do it. But skip at your will. 2020-10-03T10:39:35Z phoe: Quicklisp is a wrapper over ASDF that handles automatically downloading systems from the Internet 2020-10-03T10:39:50Z phoe: and ASDF is the thing that does the loading itselfg 2020-10-03T10:39:58Z phoe: s/itselfg/itself/ 2020-10-03T10:40:33Z phoe: so you can write your code in myfile.lisp and create my-system.asd that contains (defsystem #:my-system ... :components ((:file "myfile"))) and then (asdf:load-system :my-system) 2020-10-03T10:40:36Z phoe: oh! I see the issue now 2020-10-03T10:40:52Z phoe: in ASDF, you need "myfile" instead of "myfile.lisp" 2020-10-03T10:40:59Z phoe: ASDF adds the extension automatically for Lisp files 2020-10-03T10:41:07Z he-man: yes, I think I am almost done, let me give it a try. The problem is that I did not know where to put what and how to do it 2020-10-03T10:41:14Z he-man: I think I understand already: so you fire up emacs 2020-10-03T10:41:17Z he-man: and a REPL 2020-10-03T10:41:30Z he-man: your asd file contains your files to compile + depends on, etc. 2020-10-03T10:41:34Z he-man: you load the system 2020-10-03T10:41:42Z he-man: and that way you are already where you left off. 2020-10-03T10:41:44Z he-man: Correct? 2020-10-03T10:41:53Z phoe: "where you left off" is kinda imprecise 2020-10-03T10:42:05Z he-man: well. Imagine I turn off the computer 2020-10-03T10:42:13Z phoe: I'd say, that way you have the system loaded, which usually means that all of its files are compiled and loaded into the image 2020-10-03T10:42:13Z he-man: so I open emacs 2020-10-03T10:42:17Z he-man: my REPL is local 2020-10-03T10:42:19Z phoe: oh, yes, I understand now 2020-10-03T10:42:22Z he-man: so I fire a new one 2020-10-03T10:42:39Z he-man: and do the system load starting from the asd file and it will take care of the rest 2020-10-03T10:42:59Z phoe: yes 2020-10-03T10:43:01Z he-man: the last question I would have is, having this 2020-10-03T10:43:28Z he-man: (defpackage #:directory-indexer 2020-10-03T10:43:28Z he-man: (:use :common-lisp :asdf)) 2020-10-03T10:43:28Z he-man: (in-package :directory-indexer) 2020-10-03T10:43:28Z he-man: (defsystem directory-indexer 2020-10-03T10:43:28Z he-man: :name "directory-indexer" 2020-10-03T10:43:29Z he-man: :version "0.0.0" 2020-10-03T10:43:29Z he-man: :maintainer "German Diago" 2020-10-03T10:43:30Z he-man: :author "German Diago" 2020-10-03T10:43:30Z he-man: :components ((:file "program")) 2020-10-03T10:43:31Z he-man: :licence "MIT license" 2020-10-03T10:43:31Z he-man: :description "Index your text files in directories and find contents" 2020-10-03T10:43:32Z he-man: :long-description "" 2020-10-03T10:43:32Z he-man: :depends-on ("str")) 2020-10-03T10:43:44Z phoe: please use a pastebin service 2020-10-03T10:43:50Z he-man: oh, sorry for that 2020-10-03T10:43:52Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/ 2020-10-03T10:43:57Z phoe: that's the one I use 2020-10-03T10:44:43Z phoe: hmm, is that some sort of public system? creating packages in ASDF files isn't something commonplace 2020-10-03T10:45:08Z phoe: usually the only thing in .asd files is a DEFSYSTEM form; packages go into the files listed in :COMPONENTS 2020-10-03T10:45:35Z phoe: see https://github.com/phoe/phoe-toolbox/blob/master/phoe-toolbox.asd for one example of my own code 2020-10-03T10:45:42Z he-man: ok, that was exactly the question 2020-10-03T10:45:45Z he-man: you answered 2020-10-03T10:45:57Z he-man: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2068#2068 -- that is the code above 2020-10-03T10:46:00Z phoe: package.lisp contains the package definition, phoe-toolbox.lisp contains the implementation 2020-10-03T10:46:04Z he-man: I need to remove the package stuff 2020-10-03T10:46:16Z he-man: yes, I can make sense of the structure already, thanks. 2020-10-03T10:46:38Z phoe: some systems written by some people, usually very simple ones, fold even those two into one file - see phoe-toolbox/bag below 2020-10-03T10:46:40Z he-man: I am trying common lisp and probably pharo later as "the most interactive programming languages ever". 2020-10-03T10:46:49Z he-man: I am interested in seeing how it works in a server 2020-10-03T10:46:51Z phoe: they are! (given that you use the right tooling for the job) 2020-10-03T10:46:54Z he-man: without restarting 2020-10-03T10:47:22Z phoe: it usually works exactly the same way on a server - you have a swank server running on the Lisp image, and you connect to it through the 'net 2020-10-03T10:47:29Z he-man: and see how it affects deployment. I understand that in many cases you redefine things and keep going without a redeployement, which is fantastic! 2020-10-03T10:47:43Z phoe: usually with either emacs's tramp or an sshfs mount for accessing remote files 2020-10-03T10:47:54Z supercoven joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:47:55Z he-man: yes, that is the reason why I am trying this in the first place, to see this kind of interactivity 2020-10-03T10:47:57Z phoe: and the interaction works exactly the same way as it would locally 2020-10-03T10:48:16Z phoe: since you use exactly the same protocols as you use for local development 2020-10-03T10:48:22Z beach: he-man: No, I am usually eager to help, but I have been up working for 7 hours straight and I need a break. 2020-10-03T10:48:22Z he-man: I have been mostly working in C#/C++/Python. Python is nice, but I want to go fully dynamic (in the sense of image, objects, etc.) 2020-10-03T10:48:58Z phoe: I see; objects, in what way do you mean? 2020-10-03T10:49:01Z he-man: @beach thanks for your help! It was really appreciated. I just mentioned so that you do not feel in the obligation of doing it :) 2020-10-03T10:49:31Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:49:50Z he-man: well, in the case of Lisp, objects (clos) and functions 2020-10-03T10:49:58Z he-man: the nice thing as far as my understanding goes 2020-10-03T10:50:05Z he-man: is that the environment is fully dynamic 2020-10-03T10:50:11Z he-man: to the point that is alive 2020-10-03T10:50:34Z he-man: so in many cases, such as trivial bug fixes, it is viable to just connect and fix 2020-10-03T10:50:49Z he-man: without redeploying. Of course this is not a replacement for testing, etc. 2020-10-03T10:50:58Z he-man: but you get my point I guess :) 2020-10-03T10:51:00Z phoe: well, yes, developing Lisp application can turn into vivisection sometimes, in the positive meaning of the word 2020-10-03T10:51:20Z phoe: since you can end up poking and tugging on things in an alive application 2020-10-03T10:51:25Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T10:51:50Z he-man: I had to look for that word in spanish, and after doing it in spanish, had to go to the dictionary, hahaha! 2020-10-03T10:51:53Z phoe: but this also means that you can end up harming or killing it if you tug on the wrong thing; with great power comes great responsibility, yadda yadda 2020-10-03T10:51:56Z he-man: yes, something like that 2020-10-03T10:52:05Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-03T10:52:06Z he-man: yes, I guess so as well 2020-10-03T10:52:49Z he-man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T10:53:01Z phoe: and Lisp, being the language that empowers the programmer, also gives you all the kinds of footguns to choose from; so be careful when doing this sort of stuff 2020-10-03T10:53:06Z phoe: and, other than that, hack away~ 2020-10-03T10:53:30Z he-man joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:57:03Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:59:26Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:59:31Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T10:59:42Z saganman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-03T11:03:27Z he-man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T11:04:25Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-03T11:05:46Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-10-03T11:06:58Z he-man joined #lisp 2020-10-03T11:07:28Z jmarciano joined #lisp 2020-10-03T11:07:46Z he-man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T11:08:03Z he-man joined #lisp 2020-10-03T11:08:26Z he-man: is it a bad practice to add directories to asdf:*central-registry*? 2020-10-03T11:11:01Z phoe: not really 2020-10-03T11:11:06Z phoe: many people do that in their RC files 2020-10-03T11:11:25Z phoe: for instance so they can store their Lisp stuff e.g. in ~/Projects/Lisp/ and have ASDF handle that 2020-10-03T11:11:49Z he-man: I usually have my projects in ~/git/project-name 2020-10-03T11:12:01Z he-man: so I would add the dir directly, right? 2020-10-03T11:12:14Z phoe: usually one would add ~/git/ 2020-10-03T11:12:33Z phoe: and then ~/git/project-name/project-name.asd would be found 2020-10-03T11:12:43Z he-man: then I am not sure how to load, I see a :symbol in asdf:load-system calls I found around 2020-10-03T11:12:54Z he-man: so I do: 2020-10-03T11:13:14Z he-man: (asdf:load-system :my-project) and provided that I have 2020-10-03T11:13:23Z he-man: ~/git in the registry 2020-10-03T11:13:36Z he-man: it will find my-project/my-project.asd 2020-10-03T11:15:12Z phoe: yes 2020-10-03T11:15:34Z phoe: :my-project gets coerced into "my-project" which is used to load the system from the file my-project.asd 2020-10-03T11:16:58Z he-man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T11:17:25Z enrio quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T11:18:26Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T11:21:10Z he-man joined #lisp 2020-10-03T11:21:42Z he-man: I suspect I am doing something wrong. I put this in my .sbclrc file. Maybe at that time asdf is not loaded? 2020-10-03T11:21:49Z he-man: this: 2020-10-03T11:22:13Z phoe: ;; remember about the pastebin! 2020-10-03T11:22:31Z he-man: just one line is ok here? not pasting a ton of code. 2020-10-03T11:22:36Z phoe: oh, sure 2020-10-03T11:23:05Z he-man: (setf asdf:*central-registry* (cons "/home/he-man/git" asdf:*central-registry*)) 2020-10-03T11:23:11Z he-man: something like that 2020-10-03T11:23:35Z he-man: but sbcl connection does not start anymore and Emacs hangs. I guess because of an init error 2020-10-03T11:23:47Z phoe: you'll likely want #P"/home/he-man/git" to have a pathname object instead of a string 2020-10-03T11:23:58Z phoe: check what the *inferior-lisp* buffer in emacs says 2020-10-03T11:24:01Z he-man: oh, yes, it is that in fact 2020-10-03T11:24:09Z he-man: It showed the #P 2020-10-03T11:24:16Z he-man: it is a path literal 2020-10-03T11:24:19Z phoe: good 2020-10-03T11:24:28Z phoe: then check the contents of *inferior-lisp* buffer in emacs 2020-10-03T11:24:36Z phoe: that'll tell you why slime REPL has failed to boot 2020-10-03T11:27:42Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-10-03T11:28:31Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-10-03T11:30:27Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-03T11:33:44Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-10-03T11:37:01Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-03T11:39:32Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-03T11:39:33Z abbe quit (Quit: “Everytime that we are together, it's always estatically palpitating!”) 2020-10-03T11:42:25Z he-man: thx. Need to have a break now but continue later. Thanks for all your support @phoe 2020-10-03T11:50:08Z enrio joined #lisp 2020-10-03T11:50:32Z jackdaniel: mseddon: yes, it is located here: https://github.com/TurtleWarePL/eu.turtleware.charming-clim ; everything is in a quite wip state though 2020-10-03T11:51:10Z jackdaniel: you may also find some early rationale on my blog behind some decisions 2020-10-03T11:51:26Z galex-713_ joined #lisp 2020-10-03T11:55:25Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T11:56:30Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-03T12:16:44Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-10-03T12:18:23Z Lycurgus: actually it's renunciation of citizenship by higher net worth individuals that's up. So much so that they're now charging a stiff fee for it. 2020-10-03T12:18:53Z beach: ? 2020-10-03T12:19:08Z Lycurgus: sorry wrong channel 2020-10-03T12:19:12Z beach: Ah! 2020-10-03T12:28:40Z sonologico joined #lisp 2020-10-03T12:34:47Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-03T12:35:02Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-03T12:37:10Z bmansurov quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-03T12:39:30Z jmarciano quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T12:41:13Z bmansurov joined #lisp 2020-10-03T12:41:38Z bmansurov is now known as Guest4846 2020-10-03T12:41:52Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-10-03T12:46:25Z achilles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T12:47:18Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-03T12:47:25Z galex-713_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T12:47:41Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T12:48:08Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T12:48:53Z mint joined #lisp 2020-10-03T12:49:38Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-03T12:51:45Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T12:56:32Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-03T12:57:52Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-03T12:59:46Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T13:00:17Z enrio quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-03T13:01:24Z mint quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-03T13:01:28Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T13:11:30Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2020-10-03T13:12:36Z he-man: exit 2020-10-03T13:12:52Z he-man left #lisp 2020-10-03T13:17:34Z he-man joined #lisp 2020-10-03T13:18:43Z enrio joined #lisp 2020-10-03T13:20:01Z krid joined #lisp 2020-10-03T13:24:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T13:24:56Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-10-03T13:25:46Z he-man: I could not load my system after setting my .sbclrc set up to find system packages 2020-10-03T13:26:07Z he-man: I did in the REPL: (asdf:load-system :directory-indexer) 2020-10-03T13:26:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-03T13:26:13Z he-man: with the setup like this: 2020-10-03T13:26:49Z he-man: https://www.codepile.net/pile/p7nXWdgn 2020-10-03T13:27:21Z he-man: could anyone give a quick hand? thanks! 2020-10-03T13:27:30Z phoe: he-man: what is the error message that you get? 2020-10-03T13:27:54Z phoe: also, you do not need to :use :asdf in DEFPACKAGE 2020-10-03T13:28:40Z he-man: [Condition of type ASDF/FIND-COMPONENT:MISSING-COMPONENT] 2020-10-03T13:30:43Z he-man: true, that was from before, removed 2020-10-03T13:30:46Z rig0rmortis joined #lisp 2020-10-03T13:32:25Z he-man: it seems it is the str dependency what breaks 2020-10-03T13:32:35Z he-man: : [RETRY] Retry loading str. 2020-10-03T13:33:03Z he-man: I have to do (ql:quickload "str") anywhere or it should be handled by asdf? 2020-10-03T13:33:43Z drl joined #lisp 2020-10-03T13:34:14Z ted_wroclaw quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-03T13:34:55Z he-man: I do not get autocompletion on ql, maybe I am missing quicklisp? @phoe 2020-10-03T13:39:10Z drl quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2020-10-03T13:39:32Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-03T13:40:30Z phoe: oooh 2020-10-03T13:40:40Z phoe: do you have ~/quicklisp/? 2020-10-03T13:40:44Z phoe: if not, install it 2020-10-03T13:40:51Z phoe: the instructions are on its web page 2020-10-03T13:41:18Z jasom joined #lisp 2020-10-03T13:41:24Z phoe: then (ql:quickload :my-project) will also download all dependencies from quicklisp 2020-10-03T13:42:01Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T13:42:11Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T13:42:29Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-03T13:45:54Z he-man: I do have the directory ~/quicklisp 2020-10-03T13:46:04Z he-man: I downloaded by hand and used the dependency before 2020-10-03T13:46:11Z he-man: *BUT* when restarting emacs 2020-10-03T13:46:34Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-03T13:46:51Z he-man: It is like it vanishes. It is not on the module load path or something. (in the python sense) 2020-10-03T13:47:18Z he-man: my question is more: where should I put (ql:quickload) 2020-10-03T13:47:23Z he-man: in the REPL? 2020-10-03T13:47:27Z rig0rmortis quit (Quit: beep boop) 2020-10-03T13:47:48Z he-man: I want a reproducible environment. Just enter, run something (probably that is asdf:load-system) 2020-10-03T13:48:12Z he-man: and that everything just works. But I am not sure where quickload should gol 2020-10-03T13:48:14Z he-man: go 2020-10-03T13:52:02Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-03T13:53:14Z he-man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T13:56:44Z phoe: oh, one second 2020-10-03T13:56:58Z phoe: (load #p"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp) (ql:add-to-init-file) 2020-10-03T13:58:48Z he-man joined #lisp 2020-10-03T14:01:09Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-03T14:01:43Z he-man quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T14:12:47Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-03T14:13:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-03T14:15:53Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp 2020-10-03T14:17:22Z rusua_ joined #lisp 2020-10-03T14:33:23Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T14:35:15Z sm2n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T14:36:21Z sm2n joined #lisp 2020-10-03T14:43:24Z enrio quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-03T14:43:41Z shaman_king joined #lisp 2020-10-03T14:43:45Z shaman_king: lisp utter shite 2020-10-03T14:45:47Z beach: I am sure you have better things to do than that. 2020-10-03T14:45:55Z contrapunctus: shaman_king: do you feel frustrated because you need help? 2020-10-03T14:46:00Z diamondbond joined #lisp 2020-10-03T14:46:12Z beach makes use of /ignore. 2020-10-03T14:46:29Z saganman: I think they are just a troll 2020-10-03T14:46:35Z beach: Of course. 2020-10-03T14:47:12Z shaman_king: i think its more to do with the terrible syntax 2020-10-03T14:47:31Z beach: From a real person one could have expected a grammatically correct sentence. 2020-10-03T14:48:22Z shaman_king: its terrible 2020-10-03T14:48:33Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-10-03T14:48:35Z saganman: shaman_king: Terrible or not, no one is forcing you to use lisp. If you don't like it, don't use it. Don't force your opinions on others. 2020-10-03T14:48:42Z shaman_king: but i want to 2020-10-03T14:49:37Z shaman_king: fix the syntax 2020-10-03T14:49:42Z v28flflfl joined #lisp 2020-10-03T14:50:19Z MichaelRaskin: You are not the first and there are multiple projects providing different syntax 2020-10-03T14:50:36Z MichaelRaskin: Somehow they all get abandoned. 2020-10-03T14:51:00Z shaman_king: well 2020-10-03T14:51:14Z shaman_king: let me takeover the project, i will make changes 2020-10-03T14:52:25Z achilles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T14:52:57Z enrio joined #lisp 2020-10-03T14:53:14Z v28flflfl: i made a function that loads functions from a file and evals them at runtime, and it works? how the hell doe sthat work? doesn't sbcl have to compile them, or is the sbcl runtime so to speak always there? 2020-10-03T14:53:34Z sm2n: you can access the compiler at runtime 2020-10-03T14:53:42Z shaman_king: go away, this channel is moving to quakenet 2020-10-03T14:54:02Z v28flflfl: fuck me 2020-10-03T14:54:04Z v28flflfl left #lisp 2020-10-03T14:54:20Z sm2n: in fact, it goes even further than that 2020-10-03T14:54:22Z shaman_king: another happy lisp customer 2020-10-03T14:54:56Z sm2n: sbcl exposes an api you can use at runtime, being written in cl itself 2020-10-03T14:55:02Z shaman_king: stfu 2020-10-03T14:55:08Z beach: sm2n: I think the person left. 2020-10-03T14:55:14Z sm2n: oh 2020-10-03T14:55:17Z shaman_king: good on him 2020-10-03T14:55:24Z shaman_king: this channel is ABANDONWARE now 2020-10-03T14:55:58Z sm2n: beach, I think you are the right person to ask. I want to learn more about the MOP, what is a good way of doing so? 2020-10-03T14:56:05Z shaman_king: nope 2020-10-03T14:56:34Z beach: The book is a good start. 2020-10-03T14:56:39Z shaman_king: no 2020-10-03T14:56:41Z shaman_king: its not 2020-10-03T14:56:51Z beach: Actually, maybe not so good. 2020-10-03T14:56:56Z shaman_king: yea 2020-10-03T14:56:57Z shaman_king: its not 2020-10-03T14:56:58Z beach: But I don't think there is anything better. 2020-10-03T14:57:04Z shaman_king: use googal 2020-10-03T14:57:11Z sm2n: I see 2020-10-03T14:57:18Z shaman_king: no you dont 2020-10-03T14:57:22Z sm2n: I guess I just have to play with the code after all 2020-10-03T14:57:35Z shaman_king: play with your willie 2020-10-03T14:57:45Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe 2020-10-03T14:57:49Z phoe has set mode +b *!*b94186a2@185.65.134.* 2020-10-03T14:57:49Z shaman_king [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (shaman_king) 2020-10-03T14:57:51Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe 2020-10-03T14:58:02Z beach: sm2n: You just want to learn it as a user, yes? 2020-10-03T14:58:21Z sm2n: not necessarily, but that is a good start 2020-10-03T14:58:30Z sm2n: I am interested in implementation as well however 2020-10-03T14:58:31Z beach: sm2n: I guess you can look at the specification on the metamodular website. 2020-10-03T14:58:40Z beach: Then the book is good. 2020-10-03T14:58:59Z sm2n: isn't that just the last 2 chapters from the book? 2020-10-03T14:59:12Z beach: Chapters 5 and 6 as I recall. 2020-10-03T14:59:18Z sm2n: alright, thanks 2020-10-03T14:59:32Z beach: But the site is actually better organized than that those chapters. 2020-10-03T14:59:42Z beach: And there are cross references in the form of links. 2020-10-03T14:59:53Z sm2n: I see 2020-10-03T15:00:31Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/table-of-contents.html 2020-10-03T15:00:50Z sm2n: if I were to provide you with a stylesheet, would you consider applying it? 2020-10-03T15:01:06Z beach: To make it look different? 2020-10-03T15:01:15Z sm2n: to be quite frank I don't find it very readable currently 2020-10-03T15:01:18Z sm2n: yes 2020-10-03T15:01:25Z beach: What is wrong with it? 2020-10-03T15:01:49Z sm2n: the main issue is the line length 2020-10-03T15:02:18Z sm2n: rule of thumb in typography is you want about ~60 chars a line or so 2020-10-03T15:02:27Z sm2n: for optimal reading 2020-10-03T15:02:42Z beach: I don't set the line length. It adapts to the width of the browser window. 2020-10-03T15:02:54Z sm2n: that is the issue 2020-10-03T15:03:10Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-03T15:03:12Z beach: Hmm. 2020-10-03T15:03:37Z MichaelRaskin: Actually, for many readers it is better this way 2020-10-03T15:03:52Z beach: sm2n: That's a nice offer, but I don't think I am willing to mess with web stuff like that. 2020-10-03T15:03:57Z MichaelRaskin: Because if width is not specified, you can resize the window to desired width, but if it is hardcoded… 2020-10-03T15:04:34Z sm2n: alright then 2020-10-03T15:05:35Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:07:17Z Lord_of_Life_ joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:09:31Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T15:09:45Z Lord_of_Life quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T15:09:55Z Lord_of_Life_ is now known as Lord_of_Life 2020-10-03T15:15:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:18:06Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:24:25Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T15:24:33Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2020-10-03T15:24:49Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:25:55Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:27:45Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:29:08Z sm2n: well, I ended up writing a userstyle (basically a stylesheet loaded client-side) for myself anyway 2020-10-03T15:29:17Z sm2n: 8 lines of css, and it looks decent imo 2020-10-03T15:29:35Z sm2n: works on clhs as well funnily enough 2020-10-03T15:29:58Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:30:51Z beach: Great! 2020-10-03T15:31:13Z beach: That's a much better solution I think. 2020-10-03T15:31:36Z sm2n: I'll upload it somewhere later if anyone else wants it 2020-10-03T15:31:48Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:32:41Z contrapunctus: beach, sm2n: I nick CSS for my personal Org/Markdown HTML exports from here, it works well most of the time. http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/ 2020-10-03T15:32:51Z sm2n: yeah that was the inspiration 2020-10-03T15:33:38Z contrapunctus: No need for reader mode on mobile that way. 2020-10-03T15:34:25Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-03T15:34:50Z beach: I just can't deal with web stuff. Someone (I forget who it was) already made what he claims to be a much better version of my MOP site, and told me that I should encourage everyone to use his version instead. But I told him that it is fine if he convinces everyone. I consider my work done. 2020-10-03T15:35:38Z beach: The someone is known in various forums, and not necessarily for his politeness. I just can't remember his name now. 2020-10-03T15:37:45Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T15:38:16Z beach: Ah, Jean-Philippe Paradis! 2020-10-03T15:39:14Z beach: He also sent a link to his version to stassats so that minion would use his instead, but that must not have happened. 2020-10-03T15:40:27Z beach: https://clos-mop.hexstreamsoft.com/ is his site. 2020-10-03T15:40:34Z beach: In case anyone likes it better. 2020-10-03T15:41:04Z sm2n: I see 2020-10-03T15:41:13Z sm2n: unfortunately, that has the same issue 2020-10-03T15:41:19Z sm2n: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2069#2069 2020-10-03T15:41:25Z sm2n: here is the style if anyone wants it 2020-10-03T15:41:31Z TwoNotes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T15:41:37Z sm2n: you can use it with the "stylus" browser extension 2020-10-03T15:41:42Z Kabriel: I must have a backwards browser, because that site is difficult to read. 2020-10-03T15:42:03Z Kabriel: ^ for me to read 2020-10-03T15:42:20Z sm2n: replace the link to clhs with a http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ for mop 2020-10-03T15:43:13Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:44:07Z RagnarDanneskjol quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-03T15:44:15Z RagnarDanneskjol joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:44:26Z rvirding quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T15:44:26Z ffwacom quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T15:44:26Z mgsk quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T15:45:04Z CEnnis91 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T15:46:58Z ffwacom joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:47:01Z mgsk joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:47:08Z rvirding joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:47:35Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T15:53:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T15:54:30Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-03T16:08:40Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-10-03T16:19:52Z isBEKaml quit (Disconnected by services) 2020-10-03T16:20:52Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-10-03T16:23:45Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-03T16:25:52Z saganman: how do you peeps exit slime? do you all say ,sayoonara? 2020-10-03T16:26:57Z isBEKaml: C-d didn't work? 2020-10-03T16:27:03Z beach: I exit when my computer crashes. 2020-10-03T16:27:08Z isBEKaml: or C-c C-d 2020-10-03T16:27:16Z saganman: isBEKaml: I don't know that 2020-10-03T16:27:17Z beach: Why would you want to exit? 2020-10-03T16:27:27Z saganman: lol beach 2020-10-03T16:27:45Z isBEKaml: beach: lol -- why do you want to exit? Ain't life good enough for you? 2020-10-03T16:27:57Z rusua_ quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-03T16:29:21Z saganman: all set to go to code lisp now! 2020-10-03T16:30:30Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-03T16:33:50Z isBEKaml quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T16:39:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T16:41:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-03T16:41:58Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2020-10-03T16:50:14Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-03T16:50:37Z jesse1010 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-03T16:51:32Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T16:54:58Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-10-03T17:00:47Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T17:01:44Z mfiano- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T17:03:39Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-03T17:04:42Z mfiano- joined #lisp 2020-10-03T17:07:45Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-03T17:08:06Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-10-03T17:09:58Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-10-03T17:12:09Z ted_wroclaw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-03T17:14:09Z blackadder joined #lisp 2020-10-03T17:14:09Z blackadder quit (Changing host) 2020-10-03T17:14:09Z blackadder joined #lisp 2020-10-03T17:15:38Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T17:17:49Z blackadder left #lisp 2020-10-03T17:18:08Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T17:22:25Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-03T17:36:48Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-03T17:42:31Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2020-10-03T17:43:30Z oleo__ quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-03T17:43:47Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T17:44:49Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-03T17:51:25Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T17:56:05Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-10-03T17:58:14Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-03T17:59:41Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-10-03T18:10:51Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2020-10-03T18:11:48Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2020-10-03T18:12:26Z Zetagon joined #lisp 2020-10-03T18:12:29Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T18:13:06Z pankajgodbole joined #lisp 2020-10-03T18:14:17Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-03T18:16:40Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-03T18:17:33Z gareppa quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-03T18:19:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T18:24:56Z pankajgodbole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-03T18:26:18Z Alfr_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-03T18:28:23Z pankajgodbole joined #lisp 2020-10-03T18:29:22Z treflip quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 2020-10-03T18:38:19Z corpix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T18:38:44Z corpix joined #lisp 2020-10-03T18:38:55Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T18:39:24Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-03T18:42:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-03T18:42:41Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-03T18:45:44Z Alfr joined #lisp 2020-10-03T18:51:25Z pankajgodbole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T18:54:27Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-10-03T18:55:04Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T18:56:27Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-03T18:58:42Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-03T19:02:15Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T19:02:36Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-03T19:06:38Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T19:10:10Z sm2n: what's the best way to case on a string, they aren't eq, so case doesn't work 2020-10-03T19:11:19Z sm2n: oh, trivia's match works 2020-10-03T19:11:26Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-03T19:11:37Z mfiano-: CASE uses EQL not EQ, but that still won't help you. Use cond or alexandria has a switch that may be useful 2020-10-03T19:14:20Z sm2n: mfiano-, thanks 2020-10-03T19:15:07Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T19:25:25Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-03T19:28:19Z MichaelRaskin: There is also string-case 2020-10-03T19:28:22Z enrio quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-03T19:28:33Z MichaelRaskin: Which seems to optimise the comparison by looking at the common substrings 2020-10-03T19:36:08Z renzhi joined #lisp 2020-10-03T19:36:16Z sm2n: where is that? 2020-10-03T19:43:55Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T19:52:20Z phoe: (ql:quickload :string-case) 2020-10-03T19:55:45Z enrio joined #lisp 2020-10-03T19:57:14Z enrio left #lisp 2020-10-03T19:57:35Z enrio joined #lisp 2020-10-03T19:58:11Z enrio left #lisp 2020-10-03T19:59:12Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-03T19:59:52Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T20:00:42Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T20:05:02Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-03T20:07:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T20:09:23Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-03T20:12:45Z karayan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T20:13:36Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T20:22:42Z bars0 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T20:26:11Z karayan joined #lisp 2020-10-03T20:27:51Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-10-03T20:28:00Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2020-10-03T20:33:14Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T20:33:52Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-03T20:36:16Z sm2n: oh 2020-10-03T20:40:38Z narimiran quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-03T20:42:37Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-03T20:43:40Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-03T20:45:26Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-03T20:46:08Z lavaflow quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-03T20:47:30Z ggole quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-03T20:50:03Z Alfr joined #lisp 2020-10-03T20:51:33Z Zetagon quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T20:55:35Z hiroaki quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T20:56:16Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-10-03T20:58:14Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-10-03T20:58:14Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2020-10-03T20:58:14Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-10-03T20:59:45Z lavaflow joined #lisp 2020-10-03T21:00:28Z ym555 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-03T21:01:19Z vaporatorius__ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-03T21:02:00Z ym555 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T21:03:56Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2020-10-03T21:04:43Z logo4poop quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-03T21:05:44Z aaaaaa joined #lisp 2020-10-03T21:06:19Z daphnis joined #lisp 2020-10-03T21:07:26Z enzuru joined #lisp 2020-10-03T21:07:37Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-03T21:07:54Z logo4poop joined #lisp 2020-10-03T21:11:55Z ym555 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T21:14:08Z bars0 quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-03T21:16:11Z ym555 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T21:23:25Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T21:27:43Z achilles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-03T21:38:28Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T21:48:43Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T21:51:01Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T21:52:07Z akoana left #lisp 2020-10-03T21:53:40Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T22:00:16Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-03T22:00:44Z daphnis joined #lisp 2020-10-03T22:06:32Z Hafnium01 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T22:08:42Z Hafnium01 quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-03T22:30:55Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-03T22:37:41Z sm2n: I'm reading the uiop:launch-program documentation, it has a function wait-process, which blocks on the async spawned process, and it seems to be indicating that it is necessary to run 2020-10-03T22:37:50Z sm2n: "Any asynchronously spawned process requires this function to be run before it is garbage-collected in order to free up resources that might otherwise be irrevocably lost." 2020-10-03T22:38:13Z sm2n: what's actually getting collected here? 2020-10-03T22:38:40Z sm2n: I can't block my event loop here, so do I have to move into another thread? 2020-10-03T22:41:00Z moon-child: sm2n: there is also uiop:process-alive-p you can use to check if the process is still running 2020-10-03T22:42:34Z sm2n: so the idiom would be (if (not (process-alive-p ...)) (wait-process ..)) ? 2020-10-03T22:42:57Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T22:47:40Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-03T22:49:21Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-03T22:52:47Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T22:53:17Z aeth: sm2n: the opposite 2020-10-03T22:54:22Z sm2n: what do you mean? 2020-10-03T22:54:23Z aeth: sm2n: (when (process-alive-p process) #| do other stuff here, like send a quit command |# (wait-process process) #| read all of the leftover output here |#) 2020-10-03T22:54:36Z aeth: you do it when the process is alive at the end of your program. 2020-10-03T22:54:50Z aeth: the code I sent might hang if the process hangs, though. 2020-10-03T22:55:00Z aeth: Maybe there's a way to force close after x seconds 2020-10-03T22:58:47Z aeth: By send a quit command I mean, e.g. if the process is "dc" then you'd send "q" 2020-10-03T22:59:43Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2020-10-03T23:02:36Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-03T23:06:47Z karayan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T23:09:44Z sm2n: oh 2020-10-03T23:10:02Z sm2n: well, the point here is that I know the program in question will terminate 2020-10-03T23:10:18Z sm2n: and when it does I want to spawn another 2020-10-03T23:10:33Z sm2n: but I don't want any stuff hanging around, obviously 2020-10-03T23:11:51Z sm2n: this is all in an event loop, so I don't want to block on it 2020-10-03T23:13:05Z sm2n: I'm questioning whether I have to call uiop:wait-process at all, the documentation seems to point to yes, but I can't see why 2020-10-03T23:13:58Z v3ga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-03T23:14:10Z sm2n: also, it sucks that the process-info interface isn't monadic 2020-10-03T23:14:26Z sm2n: (process-alive-p nil) is an error, not nil 2020-10-03T23:14:39Z sm2n: so I have to special case initialization 2020-10-03T23:15:48Z v3ga joined #lisp 2020-10-03T23:19:13Z aeth: sm2n: that one's easy... (defun process-alive-p* (maybe-process) (and maybe-process (uiop:process-alive-p maybe-process))) 2020-10-03T23:21:10Z sm2n: aeth, true 2020-10-03T23:25:46Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-03T23:25:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-03T23:26:25Z tiwEllien quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T23:33:05Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T23:34:26Z sm2n: oh I see 2020-10-03T23:34:31Z sm2n: it makes sense actually 2020-10-03T23:34:52Z sm2n: you wouldn't want to lose the return code of a process that exited 2020-10-03T23:35:19Z sm2n: but I don't see why the gc wouldn't pick it up if you ignored it 2020-10-03T23:35:50Z dmc00 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T23:37:07Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-03T23:41:25Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-03T23:47:08Z aeth: sm2n: it might create a resource that can't be garbage collected, though. At least, not without a finalizer, which you can't really rely on 2020-10-03T23:47:52Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-03T23:49:33Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-03T23:50:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-03T23:55:05Z sm2n: aeth, I see 2020-10-03T23:55:44Z idxu quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2020-10-03T23:56:46Z aeth: sm2n: since it's just a portability library, it's probably the case in some but not all implementations 2020-10-03T23:56:52Z idxu joined #lisp 2020-10-03T23:58:37Z aeth: sm2n: If you don't want to block the main thread you could always just put the process into a "cleanup" queue in another thread that calls WAIT-PROCESS and then moves onto the next one. 2020-10-03T23:59:18Z beluga0 joined #lisp 2020-10-03T23:59:23Z mfiano-: Friends don't let friends finalize 2020-10-03T23:59:40Z sm2n: aeth, I ended up going with what I originally posted, with calling wait-process only after the process exits 2020-10-03T23:59:53Z sm2n: seems to work for my purposes 2020-10-04T00:08:11Z jedii joined #lisp 2020-10-04T00:08:18Z jedii: hey its gavno 2020-10-04T00:08:25Z jedii: and we be civil n not boot me 2020-10-04T00:08:30Z jedii: I have some questions 2020-10-04T00:08:34Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood) 2020-10-04T00:09:02Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-10-04T00:10:25Z ft joined #lisp 2020-10-04T00:16:38Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-10-04T00:28:03Z ech quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T00:28:13Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-04T00:29:28Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T00:30:01Z ech joined #lisp 2020-10-04T00:30:03Z epony joined #lisp 2020-10-04T00:31:13Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-04T00:32:00Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-04T00:33:48Z aeth joined #lisp 2020-10-04T00:35:34Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-04T00:42:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T00:44:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-04T00:54:10Z jedii quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-04T01:00:31Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-10-04T01:02:54Z quazimodo quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-04T01:03:12Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-10-04T01:04:34Z quazimodo quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-04T01:04:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-10-04T01:06:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-04T01:13:44Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-04T01:14:08Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-04T01:25:18Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-04T01:25:28Z Nilby joined #lisp 2020-10-04T01:27:20Z sts-q quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T01:30:16Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-04T01:32:02Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T01:35:22Z iissaacc: afternoon 2020-10-04T01:52:16Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-04T01:57:17Z epony joined #lisp 2020-10-04T01:59:12Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T02:00:01Z epony joined #lisp 2020-10-04T02:02:17Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-10-04T02:08:38Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-10-04T02:10:03Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-04T02:19:28Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-04T02:21:01Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-04T02:23:55Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T02:39:33Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-04T02:42:11Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-04T02:45:27Z sts-q quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T02:45:34Z earl-ducaine quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-10-04T02:50:41Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-04T02:50:59Z sts-q quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-04T02:51:26Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-04T02:51:48Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-04T02:56:28Z TwoNotes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-04T03:00:34Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-10-04T03:03:41Z Alfr joined #lisp 2020-10-04T03:11:23Z edgar-rft: yawn 2020-10-04T03:13:33Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-04T03:17:55Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T03:18:02Z sts-q quit 2020-10-04T03:19:59Z Alfr quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-04T03:21:28Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-04T03:24:40Z Alfr joined #lisp 2020-10-04T03:25:43Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-04T03:28:04Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-04T03:29:20Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-04T03:30:04Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-04T03:35:58Z ym555 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-04T03:39:23Z aaaaaa: beach: ! 2020-10-04T03:41:45Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T03:41:45Z ym555 joined #lisp 2020-10-04T03:43:19Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-04T03:46:17Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-10-04T03:46:36Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-04T03:47:08Z ym555 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-04T03:49:46Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-04T03:51:18Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-10-04T03:56:17Z bilegeek quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T03:58:28Z sts-q quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-04T04:00:37Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2020-10-04T04:03:22Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-04T04:06:31Z kreyren_ joined #lisp 2020-10-04T04:06:43Z kreyren_: How can i get value of an environment variable? 2020-10-04T04:06:50Z kreyren_: basically looking for (getenv "VAR") from elisp x.x 2020-10-04T04:07:53Z no-defun-allowed: (uiop:getenv "USER") 2020-10-04T04:09:03Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, thanks ^-^ 2020-10-04T04:09:14Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-04T04:09:33Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, > (uiop:getenv "USER") 2020-10-04T04:09:34Z kreyren_: ahh 2020-10-04T04:09:40Z kreyren_: There is no package with the name UIOP.. 2020-10-04T04:09:55Z kreyren_: note this being ecl 2020-10-04T04:10:05Z no-defun-allowed: Best load it them, with something like (ql:quickload :uiop) 2020-10-04T04:10:34Z kreyren_: > There is no package with the name QL.. 2020-10-04T04:10:35Z no-defun-allowed: In ECL, (ext:getenv "USER") will work, but I really don't like writing implementation-dependent code. 2020-10-04T04:10:50Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, what do you recommend then? 2020-10-04T04:11:09Z tychoish: can you install quicklisp? 2020-10-04T04:11:12Z no-defun-allowed: Well, probably installing Quicklisp so you can use UIOP. 2020-10-04T04:11:28Z tychoish: uiop is a component in asdf 2020-10-04T04:11:44Z tychoish: what version of ecl are you running? 2020-10-04T04:12:02Z kreyren_: ECL 20.4.24 2020-10-04T04:12:17Z tychoish: hrm, same as what I'm using, 2020-10-04T04:12:54Z kreyren_: what's implementation-dependent code in this scenario though? 2020-10-04T04:13:12Z kreyren_ would think that importing packages to his ecl would make it more dependent on the configuration 2020-10-04T04:13:29Z kreyren_ 's trying to write his ecl to work on as many systems as possible 2020-10-04T04:13:29Z tychoish: (ext:getenv "foo") is something specific to the ECL implementation 2020-10-04T04:14:00Z tychoish: ah, so here's a concept that you might not be used to, that CL folks will talk about a lot. 2020-10-04T04:14:03Z kreyren_: so that won't work on ccl ? 2020-10-04T04:14:52Z tychoish: so there are lots of different implementations of Common Lisp which have their own extension set (SBCL has functions that start with "sb-" and ecl has ones that start with 'ext" and if you're on SBCL you can't use ECL functions and vice versa 2020-10-04T04:15:30Z tychoish: if you stick to only ECL or only SBCL your code works on any version of ECL or SBCL on any system (more or less.) 2020-10-04T04:15:53Z kreyren_: is that a bad thing for compatibility to stick only to ECL/SBCL ? 2020-10-04T04:16:15Z tychoish: if you have a dependency on a library, that's written in pure standard compliant common lisp, which many (most?) are, then your code should run on EITHER sbcl or ecl (or any of the others.) 2020-10-04T04:16:48Z kreyren_: and that won't break compatibility right? 2020-10-04T04:16:52Z tychoish: nope 2020-10-04T04:16:54Z tychoish: works great 2020-10-04T04:16:59Z kreyren_: i see O.o 2020-10-04T04:17:25Z kreyren_: What is the better implementation then? Installing quicklisp then loading uiop ? 2020-10-04T04:17:40Z kreyren_: also is there some kind of linting that would capture this? 2020-10-04T04:17:43Z tychoish: so UIOP is a compatibility layer that provides a common interaface to lots of common systems-type functions (getenv/setenv/getwd) 2020-10-04T04:18:05Z tychoish: I'm not aware of a good linter for portability. 2020-10-04T04:18:30Z tychoish: most implementations that people use support quicklisp 2020-10-04T04:18:34Z tychoish: (all?) 2020-10-04T04:18:41Z kreyren_: checking 2020-10-04T04:19:26Z tychoish: so there's this package called asdf which is a build system tool for common lisp packages (it's like setuptools or distutil from python, say) 2020-10-04T04:19:42Z tychoish: and everyone / everything uses it (more or less). 2020-10-04T04:19:54Z tychoish: and uiop is a component of asdf so it's really everywhere. 2020-10-04T04:22:39Z kreyren_ is still not sure how to get `(write-line (uiop:getenv "VAR"))` to work in ecl 2020-10-04T04:24:20Z kreyren_: So is quicklisp a package from the distro or ? 2020-10-04T04:24:33Z tychoish: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ 2020-10-04T04:26:16Z saganman: Morning Everyone! 2020-10-04T04:26:25Z kreyren_: tychoish, debian has this as a package, but should i vendor this? assuming that my code is called from a Makefile.toml loaded using cargo-make 2020-10-04T04:26:51Z kreyren_ is not sure what is the better way for compatibility across multiple systems 2020-10-04T04:28:07Z Alfr: kreyren_, if your package is mostly list, stick to asdf. The other case will be a mess either way. 2020-10-04T04:28:14Z tychoish: kreyren_: I don't really know what you're trying to do or what the practical requirements are. I'd get it working locally and then try and decided. 2020-10-04T04:28:21Z tychoish: and decide from there 2020-10-04T04:28:23Z Alfr: s/list/lisp/ 2020-10-04T04:30:09Z XachX quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) 2020-10-04T04:30:15Z kreyren_: tychoish, if that makes sense: http://ix.io/2zF9 basically defining a makefile where instead of POSIX sh i am using common lisp so that it works on legacy systems 2020-10-04T04:31:02Z kreyren_: so `makers kreyren` will invoke ecl --shell .cl 2020-10-04T04:32:07Z tychoish: yeah, I dunno. 2020-10-04T04:32:17Z kreyren_: x.x 2020-10-04T04:32:34Z kreyren_: saganman, mornin' ^-^ 2020-10-04T04:32:35Z tychoish: the set of systems that don't have posix shells but do have ECL? I don't think that exists. 2020-10-04T04:33:06Z tychoish: but good luck! 2020-10-04T04:33:37Z kreyren_: tychoish, Allegedly VAX are that way as they only have bourne shell (bsh) 2020-10-04T04:34:20Z tychoish: yeah, but I don't think ECL runs on VAX, and 2020-10-04T04:34:24Z kreyren_: also why is ecl a thing when ccl using can interpret the suggested code? Woudn't that make it embeddable ? 2020-10-04T04:34:50Z tychoish: but also no one's writing new software for VAXes 2020-10-04T04:34:51Z kreyren_: tychoish, apparently the users are exporting the C99 to work there O.o 2020-10-04T04:35:03Z tychoish: meh? 2020-10-04T04:35:10Z tychoish: haha 2020-10-04T04:35:16Z no-defun-allowed: ECL has a bytecode interpreter and C generator, which can be more portable than Clozure's native code compiler. 2020-10-04T04:36:30Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know what platforms ECL supports, so don't take this example too literally, but you could run the former but not the latter on a Linux system with C99 compiler on a MIPS processor. 2020-10-04T04:36:52Z kreyren_: ah i see O.o 2020-10-04T04:36:57Z saganman: I always learn something new from this channel 2020-10-04T04:37:39Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, ECL officially supports x86, SPARC, Alpha, PowerPC and ARM processors, whereas Clozure only supports x86 and ARM. 2020-10-04T04:38:51Z Alfr: kreyren_, why not write your script completly in cl? And then use asdf to dump one lisp file (as asdf does for itself). 2020-10-04T04:40:21Z kreyren_: Alfr, dunno yet, currently investigating the option 2020-10-04T04:42:25Z Alfr: kreyren_, concatenate-source-op and monolithic-concatenate-source-op could be what you want. https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Predefined-operations-of-ASDF.html#Predefined-operations-of-ASDF 2020-10-04T04:43:02Z kreyren_: Alfr, elaborate on the usecase? 2020-10-04T04:45:50Z Alfr: .asd files describe systems and how to load them, essentially file dependencies, and ASDF can use that description to load such a system into the running lisp. 2020-10-04T04:47:29Z cjv joined #lisp 2020-10-04T04:47:53Z kreyren_: Alfr, do you have proof of concept or something? from provide don't understand how could that be implemented 2020-10-04T04:48:44Z Alfr: Konwing that, it can also concatenate the component files of a system into a single file, so that loading it would have the same results (usually minus compilation) as using ASDF's load-system directly. 2020-10-04T04:49:02Z kreyren_: x.x 2020-10-04T04:49:12Z Alfr: kreyren_, that's already implemented to package ASDF itself. 2020-10-04T04:52:06Z kreyren_: Alfr, so basically .asdf is quicklisp with bunch of metadata at it's header? 2020-10-04T04:52:50Z Alfr: kreyren_, no. It doesn't download systems for you. And Quicklisp is built upon ASDF. 2020-10-04T04:53:52Z nullheroes quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-04T04:55:27Z kreyren_ is even more confused 2020-10-04T04:56:55Z Alfr: kreyren_, https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/blob/master/asdf.asd 2020-10-04T04:58:02Z Alfr: It essentially defines component dependencies, and specifies :build-operation as monolithic-concatenate-source-op . 2020-10-04T04:58:35Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-04T04:59:26Z nullheroes joined #lisp 2020-10-04T04:59:36Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-04T05:00:49Z kreyren_: i see O.o 2020-10-04T05:00:53Z kreyren_: checking 2020-10-04T05:01:05Z Alfr: Calling (asdf:make :asdf), I think, will then generate a lisp file, which includes all dependencies (uiop and asdf itself). 2020-10-04T05:01:35Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-04T05:05:33Z bhartrihari: kreyren_: An asdf system definition basically allows you to describe how to load your lisp code (from the file system). (eg. what files to load, what order to load them in, dependencies etc.). 2020-10-04T05:06:28Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-04T05:06:35Z kreyren_: Is there a way to silence this part? https://i.imgur.com/JULUUQv.png 2020-10-04T05:08:36Z bhartrihari: kreyren_: If you're using quicklisp then (ql:quickload :package-name :silent t) should do it. 2020-10-04T05:09:17Z kreyren_: bhartrihari, still says loading https://i.imgur.com/dg5FMfU.png 2020-10-04T05:10:27Z Alfr: As I understand it, he wants it free standing and usable with only cl/ecl as a requirement. 2020-10-04T05:11:26Z bhartrihari: That is from the `load` form, not quicklisp. (load "filename.lisp" :verbose nil) should silence that comment. 2020-10-04T05:11:33Z bhartrihari: kreyren_: ^^ 2020-10-04T05:12:20Z kreyren_: but i am already using :verbose nil x.x 2020-10-04T05:12:40Z bhartrihari: Ah. I missed that. 2020-10-04T05:13:19Z bhartrihari: Just a minute 2020-10-04T05:13:34Z bhartrihari: There's perhaps some code in setup.lisp that is causing that. 2020-10-04T05:17:02Z Alfr: kreyren_, :print nil 2020-10-04T05:17:08Z no-defun-allowed: I think ECL writes those lines when you load files. 2020-10-04T05:17:46Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-04T05:17:47Z kreyren_: Alfr, still https://i.imgur.com/p5D8o9T.png 2020-10-04T05:18:05Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, yep seems to be.. well it's not problematic so i think i don't mind these in O.o 2020-10-04T05:18:10Z Alfr: kreyren_, that was meant for the load-form. :) 2020-10-04T05:18:51Z kreyren_: Alfr, https://i.imgur.com/NVi47Rm.png that made it worse :p 2020-10-04T05:19:04Z kreyren_: also https://i.imgur.com/8IL69wL.png 2020-10-04T05:21:03Z no-defun-allowed: (setf *load-verbose* nil) beforehand. 2020-10-04T05:21:21Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, works! thanks ^-^ 2020-10-04T05:23:36Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-04T05:25:03Z Alfr: Something already sets it to nil in my init. 2020-10-04T05:25:27Z kreyren_: O.o i am using --norc for that usecase 2020-10-04T05:26:04Z kreyren_: Can i use asdf so that the runtime woudn't require these lines? https://i.imgur.com/hql6Erp.png 2020-10-04T05:26:22Z kreyren_: i.e in https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/blob/master/asdf.asd can that be defined at the header of the file or something? 2020-10-04T05:30:34Z kreyren_ expects only `(write-line (uiop:getenv "MESSAGE"))` and simmilar content in the `script` that is compatibility friendly so that the code is not bloated 2020-10-04T05:33:16Z kreyren_: ah apparently i can 2020-10-04T05:33:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-04T05:37:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T05:38:56Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-04T05:39:11Z Alfr: Seems that requiring asdf sets it to nil, interesting. 2020-10-04T05:41:29Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-04T05:48:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T05:50:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-04T05:50:24Z no-defun-allowed: Some day I'll ask if you could use a paste service so I can run the code without having to transcribe it, but that day isn't today. 2020-10-04T05:51:59Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-04T05:52:13Z no-defun-allowed: Could you configure the scripting program that runs ECL to prepend loading ASDF and include the arguments to ECL? A user probably doesn't need to know how you invoke ECL either. 2020-10-04T05:55:55Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T05:59:43Z kreyren_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T06:00:08Z kreyren_ joined #lisp 2020-10-04T06:02:00Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-10-04T06:09:20Z krid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-04T06:10:07Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-10-04T06:13:24Z aaaaaa quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-04T06:18:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T06:20:12Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-04T06:35:12Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-04T06:43:04Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T06:43:38Z ym555 joined #lisp 2020-10-04T06:53:37Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-04T07:00:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T07:01:52Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-10-04T07:02:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-04T07:05:56Z daphnis joined #lisp 2020-10-04T07:09:25Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-04T07:10:01Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-10-04T07:18:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T07:20:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-04T07:28:02Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-04T07:28:42Z moon-child: when I load quicklisp from sbcl, I get a lot of warnings like 'In source-registry entry /usr/local/lib/sbcl// found several entries for sb-sprof - picking #P"/usr/local/lib/sbcl/contrib/sb-sprof.asd" over #P"/usr/local/lib/sbcl/sb-sprof/sb-sprof.asd"' 2020-10-04T07:29:06Z moon-child: (don't get that from ccl or from sbcl without quicklisp) 2020-10-04T07:29:46Z moon-child: anyone have any clues about that? 2020-10-04T07:33:03Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-04T07:38:27Z brainfunnel joined #lisp 2020-10-04T07:40:41Z no-defun-allowed: Well, it appears the contribs could be installed twice. 2020-10-04T07:40:50Z easye: moon-child: when loaded, Quicklisp configures ASDF to find additional systems. What exactly is happening is unclear, but it kinda looks like sbcl has a funny installation. 2020-10-04T07:42:10Z cjv quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-04T07:44:21Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-04T07:44:30Z moon-child: oh, I see; apologies. It looks like the port has a note about this, saying to modify a config file if using quicklisp 2020-10-04T07:51:09Z easye: moon-child: having SBCL configured this way probably isn't fatal, as the systems are presumably identical, but it is probably nice to have less noise. 2020-10-04T08:00:20Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-10-04T08:04:28Z isBEKaml quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-04T08:06:01Z epony quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-04T08:08:49Z pve joined #lisp 2020-10-04T08:08:50Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2020-10-04T08:11:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T08:16:16Z jmarciano joined #lisp 2020-10-04T08:19:12Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-10-04T08:19:17Z jmarciano quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-04T08:23:44Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-04T08:24:27Z pankajgodbole joined #lisp 2020-10-04T08:35:47Z enzuru quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-10-04T08:42:32Z epony joined #lisp 2020-10-04T08:46:05Z Atranimus joined #lisp 2020-10-04T08:50:31Z tiwEllien joined #lisp 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connection) 2020-10-04T13:18:36Z Guest73536: Can your favorite CL compiler repeat the optimization mentioned in PAIP P.279? 2020-10-04T13:18:38Z Guest73536: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=QzGuHnDhvZIC&pg=PA279#v=onepage&q&f=false 2020-10-04T13:21:02Z daphnis joined #lisp 2020-10-04T13:21:32Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp 2020-10-04T13:21:59Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-10-04T13:23:07Z beach: I don't know, but it doesn't look very hard. 2020-10-04T13:23:45Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T13:23:49Z beach: Except that there is some semantic violations in that code. 2020-10-04T13:24:46Z beach: It is possible that L is not a list, so that has to be tested for, unless you have a very low safety setting and the compiler takes advantage of it. 2020-10-04T13:25:06Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-04T13:25:52Z beach: Er, hold on... 2020-10-04T13:26:54Z beach: The first argument to EXPT is N, provided N is a number. That has to be tested for too. 2020-10-04T13:28:00Z beach: The second argument is -2 and the compiler can figure that out. 2020-10-04T13:30:38Z beach: I don't see how the disassembly corresponds to that code. 2020-10-04T13:31:39Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-04T13:31:50Z beach: Oh, sorry, the second argument is 2. Duh! 2020-10-04T13:35:25Z beach: Guest73536: If you want Common Lisp to be a safe language, neither function can be optimized that much. 2020-10-04T13:35:51Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-04T13:36:02Z beach: Guest73536: But with enough declarations and a low safety, perhaps. I would not generate code like that myself. 2020-10-04T13:37:11Z beach: Also, there is hidden complexity. Even if N is a number, it could be a bignum, or a complex number, so the * operator is not free. 2020-10-04T13:39:40Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-04T13:40:52Z krid joined #lisp 2020-10-04T13:46:37Z Guest73536: Declaring type function input type doesn't help. Even changing F1 as follows does not: 2020-10-04T13:47:29Z Guest73536: https://paste.gnome.org/pmtrc4ps8 2020-10-04T13:48:49Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-10-04T13:51:04Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-04T13:53:46Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-04T13:54:25Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-04T13:56:40Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-04T14:02:09Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2020-10-04T14:02:26Z Inline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-04T14:04:22Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T14:05:06Z oleo__ is now known as Inline 2020-10-04T14:06:53Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-10-04T14:09:29Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-04T14:12:40Z _death: sbcl does reduce (length '(a b)) to 2.. a direct (length (list ...)) should be easy, but likely not worth it 2020-10-04T14:16:17Z renzhi joined #lisp 2020-10-04T14:18:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-04T14:22:31Z tankrim left #lisp 2020-10-04T14:23:34Z ludston quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-04T14:24:28Z tankrim joined #lisp 2020-10-04T14:35:16Z enrio quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-04T14:41:21Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2020-10-04T14:42:10Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T14:43:14Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-04T14:45:26Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T14:46:08Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-04T14:46:08Z saganman quit (Changing host) 2020-10-04T14:46:08Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-04T14:46:15Z decentyousername joined #lisp 2020-10-04T14:46:38Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-04T14:46:51Z decentyousername: Hi guys. I remember that there was a website which provided a preconfigured emacs for Common Lisp development. It had dark CSS. Anyone know what I mean? 2020-10-04T14:47:13Z _death: portacle? 2020-10-04T14:47:52Z decentyousername: could be 2020-10-04T14:48:00Z saganman: is anyone using rcirc? 2020-10-04T14:48:15Z decentyousername: _death: thanks. I was looking for portacle. 2020-10-04T14:53:20Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-04T14:56:39Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T15:03:21Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-04T15:03:43Z Guest73536 quit (Quit: Guest73536) 2020-10-04T15:10:32Z saganman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-04T15:10:49Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-10-04T15:11:26Z treflip quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 2020-10-04T15:14:12Z coltkirk joined #lisp 2020-10-04T15:15:01Z coltkirk: hi, where is the newbie channel? the beginner question area 2020-10-04T15:15:03Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-04T15:15:30Z aindilis` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T15:16:26Z coltkirk: i wrote an algorithm that, although it works it's very non-elegant, was curious to get some feedback while it's fresh on my mind 2020-10-04T15:17:07Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-10-04T15:17:45Z mfiano-: #clschool is the Common Lisp beginners channel. 2020-10-04T15:18:31Z coltkirk: thanks 2020-10-04T15:19:14Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T15:19:42Z coltkirk: i'll write a note in my .emacs file as to not forget the name of that channel 2020-10-04T15:21:58Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-04T15:35:10Z coltkirk left #lisp 2020-10-04T15:38:23Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-04T15:40:25Z isBEKaml quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T15:40:51Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T15:41:56Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-04T15:42:20Z Gerula quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-04T15:49:39Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T15:50:38Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-04T15:54:07Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T15:55:28Z aindilis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T15:55:45Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-04T16:05:33Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-10-04T16:07:34Z Gerula joined #lisp 2020-10-04T16:09:34Z chrpape joined #lisp 2020-10-04T16:09:43Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T16:23:03Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2020-10-04T16:25:57Z notzmv` joined #lisp 2020-10-04T16:30:52Z notzmv` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-04T16:31:53Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-04T16:32:25Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T16:33:08Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T16:40:18Z cjv joined #lisp 2020-10-04T16:53:45Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-10-04T16:54:52Z daphnis joined #lisp 2020-10-04T17:01:30Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-10-04T17:02:36Z TwoNotes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-04T17:03:02Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-10-04T17:06:11Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-10-04T17:07:48Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-04T17:26:16Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-10-04T17:30:39Z daphnis joined #lisp 2020-10-04T17:35:02Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-04T17:37:05Z daphnis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T17:37:11Z daphnis joined #lisp 2020-10-04T17:46:35Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-04T17:55:55Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-04T18:02:01Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-04T18:07:13Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2020-10-04T18:13:53Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-04T18:16:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-04T18:19:07Z sympt_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-04T18:21:58Z achilles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-04T18:23:11Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - 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Is there any way to get it to automatically intern symbols? 2020-10-05T00:02:18Z aeth: I guess it's a bit early to ask, but will there be an ELS 2021? 2020-10-05T00:06:19Z White_Flame: electronic lisp symposium? 2020-10-05T00:07:25Z aeth: well, yeah, the next question is if it will be physical or not 2020-10-05T00:11:43Z Gnuxie[m]: It's a good question because the goverment consistently mishandles covid and brexit 2020-10-05T00:13:07Z rig0rmortis quit (Quit: beep boop) 2020-10-05T00:13:41Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know how long I'd have to prepare beforehand to get from down under to Cambridge. 2020-10-05T00:15:07Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-05T00:18:27Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-05T00:26:31Z cyraxjoe quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-10-05T00:27:49Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2020-10-05T00:28:27Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-05T00:40:58Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-05T00:42:17Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T00:47:55Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-05T00:52:01Z tfunnell quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-05T01:00:54Z JohnTalent joined #lisp 2020-10-05T01:01:38Z tfunnell joined #lisp 2020-10-05T01:13:04Z JohnTalent: What is a good web framework for Common Lisp? 2020-10-05T01:15:57Z moon-child: JohnTalent: afaik clack and hutchentoot are popular. (Haven't made anything beyond a toy webapp in cl, so can't properly vouch for either.) 2020-10-05T01:17:49Z JohnTalent: moon-child: ok! :) 2020-10-05T01:17:50Z dbotton: what is key difference between them? 2020-10-05T01:21:40Z JohnTalent: Is there a non-duck types version of Common Lisp? 2020-10-05T01:21:48Z JohnTalent: s/types/typed 2020-10-05T01:23:05Z no-defun-allowed: Common Lisp isn't duck typed to begin with. 2020-10-05T01:23:39Z moon-child: JohnTalent: as far as static typing goes, there's https://github.com/stylewarning/coalton and typed racket. But nothing pure cl as far as I know 2020-10-05T01:24:06Z JohnTalent: no-defun-allowed: quack! 2020-10-05T01:24:33Z no-defun-allowed: JohnTalent: Is that so? 2020-10-05T01:25:03Z sm2n: JohnTalent, what exactly do you want? 2020-10-05T01:25:15Z sm2n: types are used for different purposes 2020-10-05T01:25:27Z Bike: there's only one version of the stand 2020-10-05T01:25:36Z Bike: ard 2020-10-05T01:26:07Z JohnTalent: sm2n: Not to have a stateful system using types. 2020-10-05T01:26:31Z sm2n: how are the statefullness of your system and types related? 2020-10-05T01:26:34Z JohnTalent: opps. 2020-10-05T01:26:45Z JohnTalent: I mean not to have states, but using types but using lisp. 2020-10-05T01:27:13Z JohnTalent: sm2n: It's a conjunction, not a union. 2020-10-05T01:27:31Z Bike: what are you talking about. 2020-10-05T01:27:45Z JohnTalent: Bike: programming languages, what are you talking about? 2020-10-05T01:27:54Z sm2n: you want to write code that uses immutable data structures, that also has types, in lisp? 2020-10-05T01:28:04Z JohnTalent: sm2n: exactly. 2020-10-05T01:28:27Z Bike: immutability is orthogonal to duck typing, no? 2020-10-05T01:28:32Z sm2n: sure, you can do that, just don't use setf, etc 2020-10-05T01:28:49Z Bike: and please don't blow me off, i'm trying to help, here. 2020-10-05T01:29:05Z sm2n: it is 2020-10-05T01:29:34Z sm2n: there is https://github.com/stylewarning/cl-algebraic-data-type if you want algebraic data types for exhaustive matching 2020-10-05T01:29:44Z sm2n: which is a common feature from the ml family 2020-10-05T01:30:25Z JohnTalent: Bike: The ability to have mutable structures cannot optimize for a true stateless system. 2020-10-05T01:30:50Z Bike: i'm just saying that if what you want is immutability, we'll be more helpful if you say you want immutability. 2020-10-05T01:31:06Z sm2n: generally, you can approximate any pure functional idiom to some extent in cl, but it will always fall short somewhere 2020-10-05T01:31:34Z JohnTalent: sm2n: Interesting. Thanks. I know a little haskell, but appreciate lisp's readability over Haskell. 2020-10-05T01:31:35Z Bike: as far as i know no lisp implementation does deforestation optimizations. 2020-10-05T01:31:57Z sm2n: if you want a lisp that makes heavy use of immutable data structures, I would recommend racket 2020-10-05T01:32:08Z JohnTalent: sm2n: neat, didn't know. 2020-10-05T01:32:22Z sm2n: there is also clojure but I can't recommend that in good conscience 2020-10-05T01:32:25Z JohnTalent: Doesn't sound like it's pure though. 2020-10-05T01:32:44Z sm2n: racket is a family of languages 2020-10-05T01:32:54Z moon-child: what's wrong with clojure? 2020-10-05T01:32:55Z bhartrihari: JohnTalent: Owl Lisp is pure, I think. But it's not as popular. 2020-10-05T01:33:05Z JohnTalent: yeah, clojure is just tapes and glue *trying* as much as possible to be pure. 2020-10-05T01:33:14Z JohnTalent: bhartrihari: !! :) 2020-10-05T01:33:43Z sm2n: moon-child, I haven't used it myself so I can't recommend it, and afaik it still gives you java stack traces 2020-10-05T01:33:53Z sm2n: I don't want to start a language war however 2020-10-05T01:34:04Z moon-child: sm2n: I don't actually know clojure; I was just curious 2020-10-05T01:34:33Z sm2n: anyway, it sounds like cl is not what you want JohnTalent, so I would suggest looking elsewhere 2020-10-05T01:34:52Z no-defun-allowed: (Also, there aren't many types in Clojure, so that'd be no good anyway.) 2020-10-05T01:35:06Z bhartrihari: sm2n: So does one need to understand java to be able to debug clojure code? 2020-10-05T01:35:09Z sm2n: I can't fathom why you'd have such requirements though 2020-10-05T01:35:38Z sm2n: that is my understanding, bhartrihari, but I have never used it personally 2020-10-05T01:42:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T01:43:34Z bhartrihari: Is there any other pure lisp other than Owl Lisp? 2020-10-05T01:44:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-05T01:44:36Z no-defun-allowed: Well, the original LISP (note upcased) was pure. But why? 2020-10-05T01:45:09Z sm2n: shen, I guess 2020-10-05T01:45:49Z aeth: SBCL (a CL implementation) has some degree of static typing through type declarations 2020-10-05T01:47:22Z aeth: You can technically get immutability and types with DEFSTRUCT... :read-only slots with a certain specified :type... Of course, it would be a non-optimized immutability, unlike, say, Haskell 2020-10-05T01:48:09Z no-defun-allowed: But why do you need a pure language? It's quite to draw up an "immutable" subset of Common Lisp. 2020-10-05T01:49:38Z epony quit (Quit: system upgrades again) 2020-10-05T01:50:37Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: you either have optimized immutability (some CL libraries) or you have compiler-enforced immutability (e.g. the hypothetical struct that I just described), but you can't have both unless the language supports it. 2020-10-05T01:51:16Z aeth: I doubt it's a common enough idiom for implementations to bother optimizing... i.e. getting read only data structures via structs with all slots as read-only 2020-10-05T01:51:41Z aeth: This is absolutely what structs are for, though. Letting implementations be able to optimize it. 2020-10-05T01:57:04Z shinohai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-05T01:57:48Z shinohai joined #lisp 2020-10-05T02:04:59Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-05T02:15:32Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-05T02:26:28Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-05T02:36:20Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-05T02:45:16Z sympt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-05T02:51:55Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T03:02:05Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T03:02:14Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-05T03:03:17Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-10-05T03:03:51Z kapil_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T03:04:27Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T03:04:40Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-05T03:05:00Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-05T03:06:51Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-05T03:13:55Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-10-05T03:17:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-05T03:20:49Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T03:23:24Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-05T03:37:34Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-10-05T03:37:35Z epony joined #lisp 2020-10-05T03:39:48Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-05T03:47:15Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-10-05T03:47:20Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-05T03:48:23Z kreyren_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T03:52:30Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2020-10-05T03:54:13Z bhartrihari: Good morning beach, and everyone else! 2020-10-05T03:58:10Z sts-q quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-05T04:02:47Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T04:04:03Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-05T04:13:14Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-10-05T04:20:37Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-05T04:28:58Z cjv: Goodnight ;) 2020-10-05T04:30:42Z sz0 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T04:38:26Z beach: cjv: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick. 2020-10-05T04:38:40Z cjv: yeah I joined a few days ago 2020-10-05T04:38:52Z beach: Great! Welcome! What brings you to #lisp? 2020-10-05T04:38:55Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-05T04:39:40Z cjv: oh just been writing a bunch of scheme lately 2020-10-05T04:40:02Z cjv: wanted to keep an eye on the common lisp folks too :-P 2020-10-05T04:40:03Z beach: Oh! Sorry to inform you that this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp. 2020-10-05T04:40:09Z beach: Ah, OK. :) 2020-10-05T04:40:09Z cjv: I'm aware 2020-10-05T04:45:03Z beach: Are you using a functional-programming style? I take it, that's on the rise now. Some people even say that object-oriented programming is losing popularity. I suspect it must be because of the constraints imposed by the confusion between data representation and encapsulation. 2020-10-05T04:45:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T04:47:14Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-05T04:47:42Z cjv: I personally don't write in a fully functional style 2020-10-05T04:47:45Z Oladon1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-10-05T04:47:50Z beach: I see. 2020-10-05T04:48:22Z cjv: I was benchmarking SBCL and chez scheme recently on some toy tasks and was surprised to find they are almost exactly the same speed 2020-10-05T04:48:43Z beach: What kind of "tasks"? Numeric? 2020-10-05T04:49:08Z beach: Since what we do with CLOS is not "object-oriented" in the sense that Alan Kay meant it, and it is not "object-oriented" in the sense that Java or C++ do it, maybe we should call it something else, perhaps "protocol-oriented". 2020-10-05T04:49:37Z cjv: yeah, CLOS is very different from everything else out there 2020-10-05T04:49:56Z cjv: I was just doing some of the stuff from: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/ 2020-10-05T04:50:32Z beach: I see. 2020-10-05T04:51:27Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-10-05T04:51:33Z beach: For SBCL, you need to think about the OPTIMIZE settings. They could greatly influence the result, both in terms of performance and in terms of semantics. 2020-10-05T04:52:44Z beach: I guess that's true for other implementations as well, but I have less experience with those. 2020-10-05T04:52:45Z cjv: Yes, I should definitely profile it and figure out what is going on. 2020-10-05T04:53:52Z beach: For numerical code, you may want to read the paper(s) by Didier Verna. He managed to get the same performance out of SBCL for some problems, that he got out of GCC. 2020-10-05T04:54:13Z cjv: I'll take a look at that 2020-10-05T04:54:43Z cjv: I'm thinking of switching my code over to CL just because the library situation is so much better :) 2020-10-05T04:55:16Z cjv: Didier's website is so cool! 2020-10-05T04:55:20Z beach: I see. CLOS is not something you are thinking of making good use of? 2020-10-05T04:55:36Z cjv: I would start using it if I switched. 2020-10-05T04:55:44Z beach: OK. 2020-10-05T04:55:45Z cjv: Right now, I'm just using records. 2020-10-05T04:57:46Z MichaelRaskin quit (Quit: MichaelRaskin) 2020-10-05T04:58:10Z no-defun-allowed: (I would call Smalltalk, Self, Erlang et al message passing-oriented, Java and C++ vtable-oriented, and CLOS generic function-oriented.) 2020-10-05T04:58:53Z beach: Hmm. OK. 2020-10-05T04:59:25Z no-defun-allowed: I didn't think about it very long, but that's roughly how each group is polymorphic. 2020-10-05T04:59:43Z beach: Sounds right. 2020-10-05T04:59:49Z cjv: Common Lisp is more multiple dispatch no? 2020-10-05T04:59:56Z beach: Indeed. 2020-10-05T05:00:02Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, generic functions allow for multiple dispatch and method combination. 2020-10-05T05:00:31Z beach: The "vtable" thing captures the class orientation vs the prototype orientation, but the name suggests implementation too much. 2020-10-05T05:00:40Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. 2020-10-05T05:03:20Z beach: In fact, I think C++ could benefit from not using tables at all, but instead my fast-dispatch technique. Especially when there is "diamond" inheritance, which complicates vtables as I recall. 2020-10-05T05:03:51Z beach: I seem to remember that a two-level vtable solves that problem, but that's even more memory access involved. 2020-10-05T05:05:14Z skapata quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-05T05:05:40Z no-defun-allowed: cjv: What I usually do is start by using standard classes and accessors where I'd use "records", then if and only if that representation is too slow, then I use structure classes or some specialised representation. 2020-10-05T05:07:02Z moon-child: is it poor form to use ` and , instead of list? 2020-10-05T05:07:14Z moon-child: (that is, `(,x ,y ,z) instead of (list x y z)) 2020-10-05T05:07:26Z no-defun-allowed: The former lets you update classes while you're still testing things out, and accessors are also generic functions. (Note that structure classes, as well as any other class, can be dispatched on.) 2020-10-05T05:08:53Z beach: moon-child: Not really, no. 2020-10-05T05:08:55Z no-defun-allowed: It really depends, but I usually only use quasiquotation when constructing code. The purpose is to suggest what the list structure produced "looks like", so if it looks clearer to you, then you should use it. 2020-10-05T05:09:19Z cjv: no-defun-allowed That's good advice, thank you. 2020-10-05T05:11:24Z no-defun-allowed: The one advantage defstruct has over defclass is that it's less typing (though it picks accessor names that you may not like), so it may also be useful to define a macro for some shorthand DEFCLASS if you are picking slot initargs that the computer could pick for you. 2020-10-05T05:14:54Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-05T05:18:58Z White_Flame: defstruct has performance and possibly footprint advantages, too 2020-10-05T05:19:15Z White_Flame: but semantically, right 2020-10-05T05:20:05Z no-defun-allowed: That is true; I should say "the one non-situational advantage", but if you're a fast typer and like repeating yourself, defclass/defstruct syntax might not be a problem. 2020-10-05T05:20:38Z beach: I wonder how much heisig's work on sealing and fast generic functions can compensate for that advantage. 2020-10-05T05:21:44Z ym555 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T05:22:01Z White_Flame: if you can't inline it, not really 2020-10-05T05:22:13Z beach: I think his work makes it possible. 2020-10-05T05:22:20Z White_Flame: oh right, sealing. That could 2020-10-05T05:22:43Z no-defun-allowed: Probably quite a bit; but accessing the slot of a standard-instance requires one more memory access than a structure, no? 2020-10-05T05:23:05Z beach: Usually, yes. But maybe not with sealing? 2020-10-05T05:24:10Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, would he seal a class by inserting the slot vector inline in its instances, instead of using a reference to the slot vector? 2020-10-05T05:24:47Z beach: I don't know the details, but I am not excluding that possibility either. 2020-10-05T05:25:34Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, I didn't think that sealing could apply there before. 2020-10-05T05:26:01Z beach: It is still early in the morning for me, so I may not be able to think it through (yet). 2020-10-05T05:26:25Z beach: Not that I would take advantage of such a possibility anyway. :) 2020-10-05T05:26:42Z krid quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-05T05:26:54Z White_Flame: but still, what we get with defstruct slot access is an inline mov dest, [src+slotoffset] 2020-10-05T05:26:55Z no-defun-allowed: Don't worry about it then. 2020-10-05T05:27:36Z beach: White_Flame: You would need to check the type as well, no? 2020-10-05T05:27:47Z White_Flame: if the type is declared/known/optimized 2020-10-05T05:28:19Z White_Flame: when I'm reading disassemblies, it's nearly always in a fixed-type block of code 2020-10-05T05:28:30Z beach: I see. 2020-10-05T05:31:45Z beach: Oh, and then we need to think about the interaction with the garbage collector. I think we have a tendency to forget that. 2020-10-05T05:32:36Z White_Flame: read/write barriers? 2020-10-05T05:32:54Z White_Flame: those should be fixed overhead no matter the purpose/style of the read/wrote 2020-10-05T05:32:57Z White_Flame: *write 2020-10-05T05:33:03Z beach: That's not what I was thinking about right then, but sure. 2020-10-05T05:33:17Z beach: Yeah, sure. 2020-10-05T05:34:18Z mathrick joined #lisp 2020-10-05T05:34:28Z beach: Right then I was thinking of the cost of copying, but I guess copying or not might be an orthogonal decision as well. 2020-10-05T05:35:19Z phantomics joined #lisp 2020-10-05T05:46:50Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-05T05:47:35Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-05T05:51:51Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-05T05:57:55Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T05:57:59Z myall quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T06:11:54Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-05T06:19:01Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-05T06:21:25Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-10-05T06:27:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T06:27:29Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-10-05T06:29:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-05T06:37:54Z phoe: morning 2020-10-05T06:39:23Z easye: hey ho, Mr. phoe 2020-10-05T06:39:40Z whiteline joined #lisp 2020-10-05T06:40:10Z beach` joined #lisp 2020-10-05T06:42:36Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe. 2020-10-05T06:44:09Z beach quit (Disconnected by services) 2020-10-05T06:44:12Z beach` is now known as beach 2020-10-05T06:47:35Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-05T06:48:24Z daphnis joined #lisp 2020-10-05T06:50:41Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-05T06:50:53Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-05T06:52:45Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-10-05T06:55:24Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2020-10-05T06:57:52Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-05T07:08:26Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T07:08:43Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-10-05T07:11:52Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-05T07:19:09Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T07:21:17Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T07:22:48Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-05T07:23:07Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-05T07:28:25Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T07:29:23Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-05T07:32:07Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-05T07:32:46Z saganman quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-05T07:33:07Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-05T07:33:34Z pve joined #lisp 2020-10-05T07:33:34Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-05T07:33:43Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2020-10-05T07:34:23Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-05T07:37:45Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T07:38:42Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-10-05T07:48:39Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-05T07:58:06Z cjv quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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It's much nicer in printed form than in the online form I read ages ago. Would love to get hold of Closer-MOP too. If anyone has pointers to that (preferably in hardcover) I'm all ears. 2020-10-05T12:18:10Z madnificent: I try not to by from huge internet giants if possible. 2020-10-05T12:18:25Z liberliver quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T12:19:06Z jackdaniel: is there a book titled closer-mop? 2020-10-05T12:19:49Z jackdaniel: or did you mean "the art of the metaobject protocol"? 2020-10-05T12:19:57Z madnificent: The art of the metaobject protocol. Sorry 2020-10-05T12:20:14Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T12:20:18Z madnificent: Yeah! sorry. Was too excited about PCL I'm afraid ^_^ 2020-10-05T12:21:25Z jackdaniel: mitpress has buying options listed here: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/art-metaobject-protocol 2020-10-05T12:21:43Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-05T12:23:08Z madnificent: Did not try amazon, but it's out of order elsewhere 2020-10-05T12:23:30Z saganman is now known as blackadder 2020-10-05T12:24:10Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-05T12:25:10Z madnificent: I can buy it somewhat locally at https://www.standaardboekhandel.be/p/the-art-of-the-metaobject-protocol-9780262610742 (high price for presumably a soft-cover), so perhaps I should just bite that bullet. 2020-10-05T12:32:25Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-05T12:32:35Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-05T12:32:36Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-05T12:35:17Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-05T12:36:59Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2020-10-05T12:37:16Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-05T12:37:58Z blackadder quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-05T12:38:54Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-05T12:43:29Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-05T12:44:30Z shinohai quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-05T12:44:50Z decentyousername quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-10-05T12:48:52Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T12:49:49Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T12:50:53Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T12:53:05Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-05T12:54:34Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-05T12:54:58Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-05T12:58:00Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-05T12:58:16Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-05T13:00:00Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:02:07Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-05T13:02:24Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:04:35Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:05:25Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:08:22Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:09:36Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-05T13:11:25Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:11:40Z saganman: Hello. Morning Everyone 2020-10-05T13:11:45Z jackdaniel: hey 2020-10-05T13:11:56Z saganman: I'm living in emacs now. 2020-10-05T13:12:03Z jackdaniel: my condolences 2020-10-05T13:12:24Z saganman: lol, it is not bad 2020-10-05T13:12:39Z saganman: slime on left and irc on right 2020-10-05T13:12:45Z jackdaniel: sweet lemon, sour grapes 2020-10-05T13:13:35Z jackdaniel: s/lemon/lemons/ 2020-10-05T13:14:00Z saganman: the book I'm reading says programmers prefer car, cadr over first, rest, why is that so? 2020-10-05T13:14:23Z jackdaniel: it is probably the book's author preference "imposed" on programmers 2020-10-05T13:14:32Z Xach: saganman: it is not so 2020-10-05T13:14:39Z phoe: which book is that 2020-10-05T13:14:42Z jackdaniel: semantically they have quite different meaning 2020-10-05T13:14:42Z Xach: saganman: what book is it? 2020-10-05T13:14:56Z jackdaniel: car cadr etc are cons accessors, first rest etc are list accessors 2020-10-05T13:15:16Z saganman: ah sorry, I misread 2020-10-05T13:15:27Z shinohai joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:15:40Z saganman: sorry Xach, nevermind 2020-10-05T13:16:05Z cg505_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T13:16:40Z Xach: saganman: i remain interested in the book's title and author, even if it was a misread 2020-10-05T13:17:09Z saganman: Xach: It is Lisp by Horn and Winston 2020-10-05T13:18:55Z phoe: oh gods that's an ancient one 2020-10-05T13:19:37Z saganman: Oh 2020-10-05T13:19:52Z phoe: I haven't seen the third edition 2020-10-05T13:20:10Z saganman: I have the third edition. 2020-10-05T13:21:55Z phoe: I must have missed it, too 2020-10-05T13:22:02Z phoe: I didn't notice the third edition until now 2020-10-05T13:22:08Z saganman: I'm revising the basics, it has been years since I have written any code. 2020-10-05T13:22:39Z madnificent: I read about it too when I was learning lisp. The reasoning I read at the time stated that it's easier to combine with cadr caadr cddr etc. I guess there are cases where you'd prefer car and cadr, but probably not when treating a cons cell as part of a list. 2020-10-05T13:22:43Z saganman: phoe: back then I read this was the best lisp book 2020-10-05T13:23:42Z madnificent: saganman: I'd highly advise Practical Common Lisp if you want something hands-on and still going at a good pace. 2020-10-05T13:23:45Z saganman: madnificent: here the book says cad, cdr are still allowed because of their composite use 2020-10-05T13:24:07Z saganman: madnificent: thanks, I'll get that 2020-10-05T13:25:07Z Xach: the third edition has some good stuff 2020-10-05T13:25:22Z Xach: it covers clos nicely iirc 2020-10-05T13:25:25Z Xach: (w&h that is) 2020-10-05T13:25:36Z Xach: i also like horn's full name, "berthold klaus paul horn" 2020-10-05T13:26:31Z saganman: lol, that is his name 2020-10-05T13:28:09Z saganman: what's the command to clear slime screen? 2020-10-05T13:28:24Z phoe: C-c M-o on my machine 2020-10-05T13:28:36Z saganman: same 2020-10-05T13:28:46Z saganman: thanks, I'll make note 2020-10-05T13:31:18Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:31:37Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:32:37Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:32:37Z dbotton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-05T13:32:38Z gargaml joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:32:54Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:33:10Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T13:34:25Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T13:35:19Z parisienne___ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:36:45Z Alfr_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-05T13:36:54Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:37:07Z Alfr joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:40:00Z parisienne___ quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-05T13:41:04Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:43:47Z dlowe: When I was learning, I tried On Lisp by pg, Lisp by Horn and Winston, and CLtL2, and only the last did anything for me. 2020-10-05T13:46:06Z jackdaniel: my first book (after few chapters of PCL which I have read later), was ANSI Common Lisp (by pg), and I find it being a great resource 2020-10-05T13:46:30Z jackdaniel: especially thanks to the excercises after each chapter which kind of force you to understand some concepts 2020-10-05T13:47:21Z dlowe: gigamonkey was writing PCL when I was learning it 2020-10-05T13:47:31Z dlowe: otherwise I definitely would have used that 2020-10-05T13:48:24Z pankajgodbole joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:56:25Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-10-05T13:57:10Z mseddon: PCL is a pretty good book. Still, I think a little long in the tooth now, it'd be nice for a treatment that also covered ASDF 3 and quicklisp. 2020-10-05T14:00:13Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-05T14:00:42Z parisienne joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:01:20Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:05:45Z dlowe: Not sure how much ecosystem stuff should go into a book. 2020-10-05T14:06:24Z jackdaniel: depends on a book of course. some ended in pcl: most notably slime and emacs configuration basis 2020-10-05T14:06:32Z jackdaniel: s/basis/basics/ 2020-10-05T14:14:29Z krid joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:19:48Z elinow joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:21:16Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:26:12Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-05T14:26:37Z ludston joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:27:20Z parisienne: sorry I think I spammed the crap out of the channel :( my stupid bouncer freaked out because I haven't been in IRC for a month or so. no clue what happend ... 2020-10-05T14:32:09Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T14:32:50Z parisienne quit 2020-10-05T14:37:06Z parisienne joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:37:10Z Bike: there are no messages logged from your nick today, so if you mean something today i guess you probably didn't spam 2020-10-05T14:39:02Z parisienne: no clue ... all I know is half the channels in my list kicked me for flooding. I guess my bouncer was trying to reconnect ... 2020-10-05T14:39:05Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T14:40:34Z larme quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-10-05T14:40:52Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-05T14:40:53Z larme joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:41:18Z larme quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-05T14:41:31Z contrapunctus: mseddon: "PCL is a pretty good book. Still, I think a little long in the tooth now, it'd be nice for a treatment that also covered ASDF 3 and quicklisp." As a newcomer trying to get into the CL ecosystem - amen! 2020-10-05T14:42:21Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:42:47Z larme joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:43:00Z larme quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-05T14:43:26Z larme joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:44:23Z beach: parisienne: I didn't see any spam from you. 2020-10-05T14:45:08Z larme quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-05T14:46:05Z larme joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:46:29Z parisienne: then its all good. said sorry in #clojure and here. don't care about the #nginx dudes :D 2020-10-05T14:47:37Z larme quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-05T14:48:03Z saganman: car and cdr are actually from IBM 704 instruction set, woah 2020-10-05T14:48:13Z larme joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:48:48Z easye 2020-10-05T14:48:56Z easye 's other car is a cdr... 2020-10-05T14:49:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T14:49:42Z cg505 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:53:52Z parisienne: Thank god this is not in the documentation: 'CAR and CDR stand for "Contents of the Address Register" and "Contents of the Decrement Register"' 2020-10-05T14:55:07Z saganman: it is a good practice to declare variables first and then assign right? 2020-10-05T14:55:10Z easye: parisienne: if you don't know that piece of information, it makes it harder to remember what the functions bound to the symbols actually do. 2020-10-05T14:56:05Z easye: saganman: I try not to have anything other than LET (and LET*) forms. 2020-10-05T14:57:31Z saganman: easye: no defvar, setq? 2020-10-05T14:57:41Z saganman: setf* 2020-10-05T14:57:41Z easye: well, actually LET/LET* bindings and the lambda lists to the functions. 2020-10-05T14:58:23Z easye: saganman: definitely not SETQ/SETF, but use DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER when you absolutely need to. 2020-10-05T14:59:01Z dyelar joined #lisp 2020-10-05T14:59:12Z saganman: easye: I heard this years ago when learning lisp, why no setq/setf? 2020-10-05T15:00:26Z easye: Avoiding SETF/SETQ makes ones code more "functional", where you have expcitly nested lexical structure. 2020-10-05T15:00:33Z parisienne: easye I think you meant saganman 2020-10-05T15:01:04Z easye: But this is more a piece of guidance to show how you often don't need SETF as much as you think you do, as a hard and fast rule. 2020-10-05T15:01:20Z easye: parisienne: pardon. Yes, I did.. 2020-10-05T15:03:10Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-05T15:03:18Z schweers: Maybe some rules need a disclaimer: this is meant for newcomers. Once you’ve graduated, there isn’t anything wrong with setf in general. On the contrary, I find the concept of places is something I miss in every other language. 2020-10-05T15:03:25Z parisienne: because I couldn't imagine how it would be useful information to tell somebody get the contents of the address register ;) 2020-10-05T15:03:40Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T15:03:45Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-05T15:04:28Z easye: parisienne: CAR/CDR are one of the few (only?) places where implementation details leaked into the standard. 2020-10-05T15:05:50Z easye: I think it would have broken too much code to not have it as part of ANSI. Still I try to use FIRST, SECOND, REST, and so forth when they are appropiate. 2020-10-05T15:06:19Z easye: But then I guess we wouldn't such things as CADDDR. 2020-10-05T15:06:51Z saganman` joined #lisp 2020-10-05T15:06:57Z saganman`: I got dc 2020-10-05T15:07:01Z schweers: As jackdaniel said: they convey different intents to the reader. 2020-10-05T15:07:15Z parisienne: get the contents of the address decrement decrement decrement register? ;) 2020-10-05T15:07:28Z saganman` is now known as saganman 2020-10-05T15:07:29Z saganman quit (Changing host) 2020-10-05T15:07:29Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-05T15:07:36Z parisienne: from now on that is what I am going to use! 2020-10-05T15:07:47Z saganman: test 2020-10-05T15:07:56Z parisienne: test passed 2020-10-05T15:07:57Z easye: We can hear ya saganman 2020-10-05T15:08:33Z saganman: nice 2020-10-05T15:08:44Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-05T15:09:42Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-05T15:10:55Z beach: saganman: I think they failed to tell you that a top-level SETF/SETQ of a variable without a preceding DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER is undefined behavior. But DEFVAR and DEFPARAMETER are not "declarations"; they "define" or even "create" the variable. 2020-10-05T15:11:15Z beach: saganman: So it is not only good style, it is a requirement for conforming code. 2020-10-05T15:13:15Z beach: parisienne: Technically, it is "Contents of the Address part of Register" and "Contents of Decrement part of register". I.e. two parts of one and the same register, rather than two different registers. 2020-10-05T15:13:26Z easye: beach is of course right. Certain implementations (sbcl) won't allow toplevel SETF without DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER to even compile. 2020-10-05T15:13:55Z mfiano-: Not SBCL. 2020-10-05T15:14:04Z mfiano-: It will be a warning. But still UB 2020-10-05T15:14:36Z easye: mfiano-: Corrected. 2020-10-05T15:15:57Z saganman: yes beach, I observed that with all the warnings 2020-10-05T15:16:22Z beach: OK, good. Now you just have to use the right terminology. :) 2020-10-05T15:16:47Z saganman: thanks for the tip beach 2020-10-05T15:16:53Z beach: Pleasure. 2020-10-05T15:19:54Z parisienne: easye: damn it, now I actually want to go and figure out how the implementation in the 1950 looked like ... 2020-10-05T15:21:29Z dbotton_: Is there a function that combines let and flet in to one 2020-10-05T15:21:41Z beach: No. 2020-10-05T15:21:46Z beach: And those are not functions. 2020-10-05T15:21:59Z dbotton_: what is the propern name? 2020-10-05T15:22:06Z uplime is now known as Frankenstein 2020-10-05T15:22:10Z dbotton_: proper 2020-10-05T15:22:15Z jackdaniel: operators 2020-10-05T15:22:27Z jackdaniel: operator may be a function, a macro or a special operator 2020-10-05T15:22:32Z beach: They happen to be special operators. But you can use "operator" for either a function, a macro, or a special operator. 2020-10-05T15:22:33Z jackdaniel: flet and let are special operators 2020-10-05T15:22:38Z jackdaniel: heh 2020-10-05T15:22:38Z beach: heh. 2020-10-05T15:22:42Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-05T15:22:53Z dbotton_: thanks 2020-10-05T15:23:24Z beach: dbotton_: I believe there is some "bind" macro, perhaps in Alexandria. 2020-10-05T15:23:40Z schweers: btw, there is an operator (a macro, to be precice) which does combine them, called bind. 2020-10-05T15:23:42Z elinow quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-05T15:23:47Z schweers: https://common-lisp.net/project/metabang-bind/user-guide.html 2020-10-05T15:24:06Z schweers: But it’s not part of the standard 2020-10-05T15:24:11Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-05T15:24:33Z jackdaniel likes the idea of a bind macro, but found the source code quite off-putting 2020-10-05T15:25:03Z schweers: I must admit that I did not read it. I only wrote a few simple extensions and use it. 2020-10-05T15:25:22Z jackdaniel: I don't remember details 2020-10-05T15:25:47Z schweers: It has lots of whitespace at the end of lines ... 2020-10-05T15:25:48Z beach: dbotton_: What characterizes a "function" is that all the arguments are evaluated before the function is applied. 2020-10-05T15:26:00Z dbotton_: good to know 2020-10-05T15:27:40Z dbotton_: So the only standard way for sandwich the let's between flets if want to store results of a local operator between definitions or use results as part of next definition 2020-10-05T15:27:51Z contrapunctus: schweers: oh, bind sounds amazing 🤯 2020-10-05T15:28:14Z schweers: I use it to get rid of a lot of indentation 2020-10-05T15:28:58Z schweers: Also I strongly object to using the name multiple-value-bind. It’s just too long. 2020-10-05T15:29:00Z jackdaniel: dbotton_: operator labels creats function bindings which are available instantly (i.e for self-recurrence) 2020-10-05T15:29:34Z jackdaniel: (labels ((foo (a) (1+ a)) (bar () (foo 42)) (bar)) 2020-10-05T15:29:58Z mfiano-: There is a macro, mvlet (also mvlet*) that allows multiple-value-bind to have LET/LET* syntax, and thus, you can intermix LET bindings in it, since 1 value is the same as 1+ 2020-10-05T15:30:18Z mfiano-: I steer away from bind-like macros, there are enough of them, and it really hurts code clarity 2020-10-05T15:31:05Z jackdaniel: I like the fact that multiple-values-bind is so verbose, because it is easy to spot places, which are not a subject of some compiler optimizations 2020-10-05T15:31:28Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T15:31:33Z jackdaniel: but other than that it is awful indeed :) 2020-10-05T15:31:44Z schweers: jackdaniel: how so? Could you elaborate on what you mean? 2020-10-05T15:32:48Z dbotton__ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T15:32:48Z dbotton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-05T15:32:59Z jackdaniel: for instance (in case of ecl), if you expect only one return value, you may simply use a construct: foo = bar(); (in transpiled code) 2020-10-05T15:33:12Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-10-05T15:33:39Z jackdaniel: when you bind multiple values, you need to: check how many values were returned and assign them to each variable 2020-10-05T15:33:59Z jackdaniel: so you access an array allocated on a heap instead of simply taking value from the register 2020-10-05T15:34:19Z mfiano-: (multiple-value-bind (a b) (floor 42.2) (multiple-value-bind (c d) (floor 42.6) (let ((e 42)) ...))) => (mvlet ((a b 42.2) (c d 42.6) e 42) ...) 2020-10-05T15:34:29Z schweers: So returning multiple values is more expensive? Or receiving them? 2020-10-05T15:34:34Z jackdaniel: (this may be mitigated if you can inline the code or something, but when you don't know about the called function, then you can't) 2020-10-05T15:34:44Z jackdaniel: in case of ecl - receiving them 2020-10-05T15:35:11Z jackdaniel: it is a minute cost, but if you are optimizing to get to C speed (i.e in a numerical code), then it is important 2020-10-05T15:35:30Z schweers: Does the caller indicate to the callee how many values are expected? 2020-10-05T15:35:38Z jackdaniel: another interesting case is multiple-value-prog1 which requires "saving" values on the stack 2020-10-05T15:35:59Z jackdaniel: (multiple-value-bind (a b c) (values 1) …) ; <- clearly not 2020-10-05T15:36:37Z schweers: I mean the compiled code. I know that I as a lisp programmer do not have to do so 2020-10-05T15:36:38Z jackdaniel: but that's in the microoptimization realm which is not important in almost all cases 2020-10-05T15:37:04Z schweers: I’m wondering how the callee knows whether to allocate and fill in the extra heap array 2020-10-05T15:37:30Z jackdaniel: allocation is not necessary, because array is pre-allocated in the environment 2020-10-05T15:37:48Z jackdaniel: and it always fills as many values as it returns (and sets number of return values to n) 2020-10-05T15:37:50Z schweers: essentially by the caller? 2020-10-05T15:37:56Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T15:38:00Z jackdaniel: no, when a thread is started 2020-10-05T15:38:07Z schweers: Oh, I see! 2020-10-05T15:38:09Z jackdaniel: each thread has an array which holds returned values 2020-10-05T15:38:29Z jackdaniel: (this is implementation detail which differs probably among implementations; I'm only saying what's going on in ecl runtime) 2020-10-05T15:38:46Z schweers: I know, but I find it interesting 2020-10-05T15:38:52Z schweers: Thanks for explaining this. 2020-10-05T15:39:13Z jackdaniel: sure, if I embarassed myself by saying something incorrect please forget about it ;-) 2020-10-05T15:39:23Z jackdaniel gets back to code 2020-10-05T15:39:36Z schweers: I’ll try :) 2020-10-05T15:40:30Z jackdaniel: (m-v-b is still better and much faster than consing multiple values and destructuring them, so from the language perspective it is a win) 2020-10-05T15:40:50Z jackdaniel: compared to languages with functions which can't return multiple values 2020-10-05T15:42:25Z schweers: Doesn’t python do destructuring on a list or tuple? 2020-10-05T15:42:38Z schweers: Nevermind, we should talk about lisp, not python 2020-10-05T15:43:22Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-05T15:44:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-05T15:52:55Z pankajgodbole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T15:56:45Z dlowe: it's fine in this case - destructuring involves the construction of an object to destructure, which isn't nearly as efficient 2020-10-05T15:56:46Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-10-05T15:56:54Z dlowe: I mean, lisp has destructuring too 2020-10-05T15:57:01Z zacts: hello 2020-10-05T15:57:36Z dlowe: also, CL has the idea of the primary return value, in case you want to ignore the other return values 2020-10-05T15:57:44Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-05T15:57:44Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-10-05T15:57:50Z dlowe: whereas in the destructuring approach, you have to explicitly ignore non-matching data 2020-10-05T16:00:02Z treflip quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-05T16:04:16Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T16:06:06Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:07:55Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T16:08:17Z dbotton_: Is there a way for me to call an outer scope verion of an operate my flet or labels has shaddowed? 2020-10-05T16:09:05Z schweers: Why would you shadow it, if you need it? 2020-10-05T16:09:20Z schweers: You can just rename your inner function. 2020-10-05T16:09:39Z dbotton_: probably not smart, but the question is there is a way, a notation that would do it 2020-10-05T16:09:44Z jackdaniel: (funcall 'foo) looks for the function foo in the global environment, ignoring all intervening definitions 2020-10-05T16:09:50Z schweers: Or do you mean from within the function you’re defining via flet? 2020-10-05T16:09:50Z schweers: 2020-10-05T16:10:25Z dbotton_: so that gets me global or could use the package 2020-10-05T16:10:50Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T16:10:58Z Bike: there's no way to get at an outer binding that isn't global, if that's what you're asking. 2020-10-05T16:11:01Z schweers: The package has nothing to do with global or local 2020-10-05T16:11:01Z Bike: the binding is shadowed. 2020-10-05T16:11:04Z dbotton_: I was curious if there was some way to sort of access the previous scopes for operators or maybe even vars 2020-10-05T16:11:05Z midre joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:11:08Z Bike: No. 2020-10-05T16:11:26Z Bike: the bindings are shadowed. 2020-10-05T16:11:34Z jackdaniel: you may create a closure which captures the outer binding 2020-10-05T16:11:35Z dbotton_: I could go cl-user:foo no? 2020-10-05T16:11:42Z Bike: packages are unrelated. 2020-10-05T16:11:50Z Bike: you can get at a GLOBAL binding, like how jackdaniel said for example 2020-10-05T16:11:58Z Bike: but you can't get at a lexical binding that has been shadowed. 2020-10-05T16:12:04Z jackdaniel: that's a different thing, packages allow you to create /different/ symbols of the same name 2020-10-05T16:12:27Z dbotton_: sorry I was saying can access the global binding that way 2020-10-05T16:12:29Z jackdaniel: it is only that if you do not add package prefix, then the default package is taken (stored in a variable *package*) 2020-10-05T16:12:31Z shka_: dbotton_: within flet you can call the global with name 2020-10-05T16:12:45Z shka_: dbotton_: labels are recursive 2020-10-05T16:12:54Z jackdaniel: shka_: we have estabilished that earlier 2020-10-05T16:12:55Z Bike: you can get at global variable bindings with symbol-value, and function bindings with fdefinition plus several operators that do fdefinition implicitly. 2020-10-05T16:13:02Z shka_: jackdaniel: sorry, i missed it 2020-10-05T16:13:03Z dbotton_: so if I used the package name in flet still get the local binding? 2020-10-05T16:13:14Z Bike: it has nothing to do with the package name. 2020-10-05T16:13:40Z Bike: the package name is a property of the symbol. using or not using the package name does not impact what binding of the same symbol you get. 2020-10-05T16:14:38Z dbotton_: I see just tried it 2020-10-05T16:14:45Z jackdaniel: a silly way of accessing outer function would be i.e (flet ((foo () 42)) (let ((var-foo #'foo)) (flet ((foo () 15)) (funcall var-foo)))) 2020-10-05T16:14:51Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:14:52Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-10-05T16:14:52Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:15:15Z dbotton_: wow that was a good lesson 2020-10-05T16:15:29Z dbotton_: that would have been a bug hunt someday 2020-10-05T16:15:46Z shka_: uhm, i want to say that although jackdaniel calls this silly, it is situational very useful 2020-10-05T16:15:47Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-05T16:16:05Z dbotton_: his answer also answered my other question 2020-10-05T16:16:08Z dbotton_: from before 2020-10-05T16:16:29Z dbotton_: so packages are just name games 2020-10-05T16:16:35Z schweers quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2020-10-05T16:16:36Z dbotton_: not like ada packages 2020-10-05T16:16:38Z dbotton_: good to know 2020-10-05T16:17:05Z Alfr: I think phoe had a nice related example in #lispcafe in the last week. 2020-10-05T16:17:14Z Bike: packages are namespaces and that's it. i don't know if ada packages also include modularity or whatever. 2020-10-05T16:19:34Z dbotton_: (funcall 'foo) vs (funcall #'foo) also interesting 2020-10-05T16:19:52Z dbotton_: so what does the first call the global 2020-10-05T16:20:00Z dbotton_: and the second the local functio 2020-10-05T16:20:12Z Bike: (funcall 'foo) is basically shorthand for (funcall (fdefinition 'foo)) 2020-10-05T16:20:19Z Bike: and fdefinition gets the global definition. 2020-10-05T16:21:30Z jackdaniel: dbotton_: if you are interested in some particular operator, just type it in l1sp.org (the second character is a digit "1") 2020-10-05T16:21:33Z phoe: the value returned by the special operator FUNCTION depends on the lexical context in which that operator appears 2020-10-05T16:21:47Z jackdaniel: it will provide you a few links - to the standard, if applicable to pcl, or to another resource 2020-10-05T16:21:52Z phoe: the value returned by the function FDEFINITION does not 2020-10-05T16:21:55Z dbotton_: thanks 2020-10-05T16:22:07Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:22:45Z midre quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T16:22:49Z jackdaniel: for instance http://l1sp.org/search?q=dolist 2020-10-05T16:23:17Z dbotton_: that is fantastic resource 2020-10-05T16:24:12Z jackdaniel: thank Xach for creating and maintaining it 2020-10-05T16:24:35Z dbotton_: Thank you Xach! 2020-10-05T16:24:38Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-05T16:26:50Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-05T16:29:37Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:33:55Z gargaml quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T16:34:17Z gargaml joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:39:05Z shinohai quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.x-git-190-d3011c6 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-05T16:39:39Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:39:44Z shinohai joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:41:20Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T16:42:19Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:44:22Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:44:22Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-10-05T16:44:22Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:46:29Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T16:48:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:48:14Z gareppa joined #lisp 2020-10-05T16:49:04Z gareppa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T16:53:47Z isBEKaml quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T17:01:03Z cjv joined #lisp 2020-10-05T17:10:36Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-10-05T17:14:41Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-10-05T17:16:33Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-05T17:20:59Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-05T17:21:06Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-05T17:21:25Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T17:21:37Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T17:26:10Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-05T17:29:31Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver) 2020-10-05T17:45:35Z tessier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-05T17:46:03Z ym555 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-05T17:52:38Z tessier joined #lisp 2020-10-05T17:55:05Z sjl_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3-dev) 2020-10-05T17:57:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T17:59:06Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-05T18:00:27Z zacts: is there a UNIX command line pretty printer for common lisp? 2020-10-05T18:00:43Z zacts: or I wonder if I can use emacs on the command line to do this? 2020-10-05T18:00:52Z zacts: I'm using vim, that's why I ask. 2020-10-05T18:03:39Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:04:14Z _death: you can use emacs in batch mode 2020-10-05T18:04:30Z zacts: ok, I'll look into this. thanks. 2020-10-05T18:05:04Z zacts: I might just switch to emacs for lisp anyway. 2020-10-05T18:05:47Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T18:06:06Z beach: Bike: SYMBOL-VALUE doesn't return the "global" value of the variable. 2020-10-05T18:06:20Z Bike: oh, yeah, i guess. 2020-10-05T18:06:51Z decentyousername joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:07:55Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T18:07:59Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:09:03Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:09:48Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-05T18:13:39Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-05T18:14:00Z jasom: zacts: https://github.com/ds26gte/scmindent is not as good as emacs in batch mode. I used it prior to switching to emacs + evil-mode 2020-10-05T18:14:35Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T18:14:57Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:18:06Z dbotton_: Does case use EQ or EQL for comparisson I have seen both said in different books and online docs 2020-10-05T18:19:03Z dbotton_: the land of list book says EQ and the hyperspec sample would have to be EQL and some other online stuff says EQL 2020-10-05T18:19:24Z Steeve joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:19:38Z White_Flame: land of lisp is pretty loosey goosey 2020-10-05T18:19:54Z White_Flame: when using symbols, EQL is equivalent to EQ comparisons 2020-10-05T18:20:07Z White_Flame: but EQL is the default comparator for most things in CL 2020-10-05T18:20:07Z dbotton_: its my bathroom read 2020-10-05T18:20:33Z dbotton_: yes but eql means i can use numbers for case 2020-10-05T18:20:38Z White_Flame: yep 2020-10-05T18:20:49Z dbotton_: he says no 2020-10-05T18:20:51Z dbotton_: and is eq 2020-10-05T18:20:56Z White_Flame: huh? 2020-10-05T18:21:00Z sonologico joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:21:01Z White_Flame doesn't have his copy at hand 2020-10-05T18:21:01Z dbotton_: land of lisp 2020-10-05T18:21:09Z dbotton_: in his book 2020-10-05T18:21:16Z dbotton_: and I am not on toilet at moment so dont have 2020-10-05T18:21:27Z contrapunctus: lol 2020-10-05T18:21:50Z dbotton_: but 100% he said eq and no nums 2020-10-05T18:21:53Z White_Flame: "These macros allow the conditional execution of a body of forms in a clause that is selected by matching the test-key on the basis of its identity. " 2020-10-05T18:21:55Z White_Flame: from CLHS 2020-10-05T18:22:14Z White_Flame: it doesn't explicitly say EQ or EQL there, but that certainly smells like EQ 2020-10-05T18:22:34Z dbotton_: that is why question 2020-10-05T18:23:06Z decentyousername: Good evening. What are the differences between declare, proclaim and declaim? The difference between declare and proclaim seems to be that declare is local and proclaim global. But I couldn't really figure out what declaim is useful for, after reading the hyperspec entry for all three. 2020-10-05T18:23:07Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-05T18:23:11Z White_Flame: yeah, surprising to me as well. I haven't hit anything there 2020-10-05T18:23:13Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:23:33Z decentyousername: also, hi. 2020-10-05T18:24:34Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-05T18:25:19Z White_Flame: decentyousername: proclaim is a function, and only takes effect when it's evaluated 2020-10-05T18:25:42Z White_Flame: declaim is a macro, and so it affects things at compile-time which is usually the desired intent 2020-10-05T18:26:55Z White_Flame: you should default to using DECLAIM at the toplevel 2020-10-05T18:27:22Z White_Flame: and PROCLAIM for runtime global declarations (which are going to be exceedingly rare) 2020-10-05T18:27:35Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-05T18:28:50Z saganman left #lisp 2020-10-05T18:29:58Z decentyousername: Ok, so I use the proclaim function make runtime proclamations (global declarations), declaim for assisting the compiler, and declare for local stuff af the beginning of a block. Is that correct? 2020-10-05T18:29:58Z ebrasca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-05T18:30:09Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:30:20Z White_Flame: you're not going to be doing "runtime global declarations" 2020-10-05T18:30:25Z Bike: declaim also does global declarationis. it's basically proclaim but it additionally runs at top level compile time. 2020-10-05T18:30:36Z White_Flame: you're generally going to be doing static compile-time declarations as your intent, which is DECLAIM 2020-10-05T18:31:18Z White_Flame: (and yeah, compile-time vs run-time gets a little muddled in vernacular understanding in Lisp, as it's all technically runtime in the outside world's usage) 2020-10-05T18:31:37Z decentyousername: Alright, thanks for the input. I'll reread the spec pages now. 2020-10-05T18:32:04Z White_Flame: the spec pages must be interpreted for some of these issues ;) 2020-10-05T18:32:30Z decentyousername: not compiled? huehuehue 2020-10-05T18:33:04Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:33:13Z White_Flame: compiling the interpretations of CLHS is a required step in lisp transcendence 2020-10-05T18:33:52Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:34:50Z decentyousername: I might share the results of my compilation of interpretations of the CLHS in the distant future, when everone has already forgotten that I wrote the sentence you're currently reading. 2020-10-05T18:37:27Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T18:39:51Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:44:23Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-05T18:50:12Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:50:41Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-05T18:58:59Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-05T19:01:05Z trn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T19:02:08Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T19:03:08Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-05T19:07:03Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-10-05T19:18:25Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T19:24:36Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-05T19:27:09Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-10-05T19:35:27Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-05T19:44:09Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-10-05T19:53:13Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T19:53:27Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2020-10-05T19:55:52Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-05T19:56:35Z rtypo joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:00:52Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:04:13Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:07:08Z kaftejiman__ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:09:25Z kaftejiman_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:11:09Z Harag joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:15:00Z Harag: here is a bit of a weird question... some time in the last year I happend upon a video of a famed lisper/prof that was selling the next best thing in programming where more than one thing/function could answer a question/give a result ... he used circuit diagrams as examples in his talk 2020-10-05T20:15:25Z TwoNotes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:16:29Z _death: not sure, but maybe Sussman and Art of the Propagator 2020-10-05T20:16:43Z Harag: yes thats it 2020-10-05T20:16:51Z Harag: thanx 2020-10-05T20:18:18Z trn joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:20:01Z sgithens_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:20:13Z decentyousername quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:20:24Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:20:27Z nmg joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:20:27Z alanz_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:20:27Z jlpeters_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:20:29Z boeg_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:20:30Z banjiewen_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:20:36Z vutral_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:20:41Z rusua_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:20:47Z Grauwolf_ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:23:03Z Faed joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:24:24Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:24:30Z decentyousername joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:24:41Z decentyousername: LOL, _death is our intelligent search engine. 2020-10-05T20:24:49Z decentyousername: a million times better than Google. 2020-10-05T20:25:40Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-05T20:25:52Z jlpeters quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:52Z alanz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:52Z thecoffemaker quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:52Z rusua quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:52Z vutral quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:52Z boeg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:52Z sgithens quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:52Z banjiewen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:52Z santiagopim[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:52Z ioa quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:53Z hansbauer[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:53Z rogersm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:54Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z sebboh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z nmg_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z Fade quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z gingerale quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z Grauwolf quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z alanz_ is now known as alanz 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z aeth: so what you're saying is... _death is a possible bot... 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z jlpeters_ is now known as jlpeters 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z sgithens_ is now known as sgithens 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z banjiewen_ is now known as banjiewen 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z vutral_ is now known as vutral 2020-10-05T20:25:55Z boeg_ is now known as boeg 2020-10-05T20:26:04Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:26:21Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:26:30Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-05T20:26:30Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:26:47Z decentyousername: aeth, is he though? 2020-10-05T20:26:59Z ioa joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:27:21Z decentyousername: Now you're making question my reality. After all Lisp is was originally designed for AI. 2020-10-05T20:27:22Z sebboh joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:27:27Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-05T20:27:28Z gingerale joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:27:56Z decentyousername: aeth: Maybe you've already created a generally intelligent bot that answers Lisp related questions. 2020-10-05T20:28:09Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:28:09Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:28:10Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:28:25Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:28:25Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:28:26Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:28:28Z hansbauer[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:28:56Z santiagopim[m]1 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:29:07Z diamondbond quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:29:08Z aeth: the thing is, does this mean that _death passes or fails the Turing test? 2020-10-05T20:29:17Z aeth: having the correct answer in one line kind of seems like failing the Turing test to me 2020-10-05T20:29:41Z mjl joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:30:01Z phoe: I mean, if it means anything, I have seen _death once or twice 2020-10-05T20:30:04Z kaftejiman__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T20:30:14Z phoe: he looks nothing like a bot 2020-10-05T20:30:16Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-10-05T20:30:20Z kaftejiman__ joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:30:25Z phoe: the weirder thing, though, is that he looks nothing like the grim reaper, too 2020-10-05T20:30:58Z decentyousername: phoe: notice the underscore. He's an undercover grim reaper. Basically deaths right hand. 2020-10-05T20:30:59Z _death: there was such a system, called The LISP Tutor 2020-10-05T20:31:01Z phoe: ;; unless he's The Garbage Collector, and just has a real nice interface 2020-10-05T20:31:11Z diamondbond joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:31:48Z jasom: remember, sb-posix won't pass its tests if root is writable by all users. 2020-10-05T20:32:03Z jasom: every time I build sbcl in a chroot I forget this fact 2020-10-05T20:32:03Z decentyousername: btw. I'm currently rereading PCL. I came back from hiatus and need to refresh my mind. 2020-10-05T20:32:14Z slyrus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-05T20:32:21Z decentyousername: that book is good. I also managed to get a friend to read it along side. 2020-10-05T20:33:10Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:38:02Z _death: (well, it didn't answer questions about Lisp.. but maybe there's progress) 2020-10-05T20:39:48Z aeth: oh, interesting, so _death doesn't answer questions not about lisp 2020-10-05T20:39:55Z aeth: _death: are you written in Lisp? 2020-10-05T20:40:49Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:42:23Z _death: according to xkcd I was hacked in perl 2020-10-05T20:45:18Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:47:03Z jw4 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-05T20:48:58Z sts-q quit (Quit: -- PANIC -- Serial read char not implemented.) 2020-10-05T20:48:59Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood) 2020-10-05T20:49:28Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:49:38Z _death: there were many question answering systems written in Lisp.. in the wikipedia entry for question answering, the Unix Consultant is mentioned.. it was written by Wilensky (who wrote a Lisp book).. but the UC paper says it was written in language called PEARL... eerie, isn't it? 2020-10-05T20:50:09Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T20:53:11Z _death: it also has a big diagram with "DEATH-EVENT" right in the middle 2020-10-05T20:58:37Z _death: Package for Efficient Access to Representation in Lisp 2020-10-05T20:59:06Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T21:01:28Z dbotton_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-05T21:02:38Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-05T21:02:59Z jw4 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-05T21:04:57Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-10-05T21:06:13Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-05T21:07:47Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-05T21:08:10Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-05T21:09:11Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-05T21:10:30Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-05T21:10:31Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-05T21:10:58Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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I've put some example code here: https://paste.centos.org/view/4cbf4f54 . I must be doing something wrong but I can't figure it out 2020-10-06T03:22:33Z iissaacc: Anyone have any ideas? 2020-10-06T03:27:56Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-06T03:32:28Z TwoNotes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T03:32:39Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T03:33:46Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-06T03:41:13Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-06T03:41:35Z remexre: is there a standard class for streams, or is (satisfies input-stream-p) the best I'm gonna get? 2020-10-06T03:42:56Z beach: clhs stream 2020-10-06T03:42:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_stream.htm 2020-10-06T03:43:05Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-06T03:44:21Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-10-06T03:45:12Z remexre: oh, derp; thanks 2020-10-06T03:45:42Z beach: remexre: If you go to the symbol index in the Common Lisp HyperSpec and look under `s', you will find this entry. 2020-10-06T03:46:11Z beach: And you can use the permuted index to see any symbol that has "stream" in it. 2020-10-06T03:46:30Z remexre: yeah, I'd assumed it didn't exist (under that name) since I clicked stream and got a glossary entry; I need to start remembering that italics =/= there is no bold version... 2020-10-06T03:48:42Z beach: You are right that it is often unhelpful that the links go to the glossary, especially since the glossary often does not link back to any relevant section. 2020-10-06T03:57:49Z sts-q quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-06T03:59:45Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T04:04:00Z decentyousername joined #lisp 2020-10-06T04:06:39Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T04:08:54Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-10-06T04:09:40Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2020-10-06T04:11:56Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-06T04:14:33Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-06T04:19:08Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T04:20:21Z epony joined #lisp 2020-10-06T04:20:46Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 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hendursaga Inline tessier karlosz shinohai contrapunctus cg505 larme scymtym parisienne ludston krid Necktwi jonatack gensym IPmonger Lord_of_Life Mandus igemnace glamas spacebat2 beach whiteline jprajzne phantomics mathrick kapil_ zaquest tfunnell JohnTalent cyraxjoe mrchampion selwyn Blukunfando mgsk_ quazimod1 Aurora_v_kosmose chrpape Gerula 2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: aindilis tankrim mfiano- jerme_ CEnnis91 jibanes natj212 nullheroes ech ft beluga0 idxu dmc00 v3ga vaporatorius__ logo4poop lavaflow arbv rvirding RagnarDanneskjol sm2n jasom Guest4846 ane d4ryus fouric Colleen lansiir ThaEwat niceplace ecraven yottabyte XachX l1x cognemo thonkpod chewbranca entel docl vidak` White_Flame sjl eriix[m] Papa nckx vegansbane madnificent gko lad santiagopim[m] spal bjorkintosh Codaraxis gxt mfiano pcgme[m] Posterdati v3625 Xach 2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: xlei troydm vsync elflng Patternmaster sveit bkst defaultxr guaqua ineiros katco avicenna lukego rotty greaser|q dilated_dinosaur even4void[m] xzax_[m] housel gendl grfn drmeister physpi Balooga jmercouris_ mpontillo gaze__ travv0 rme dnm kilimanjaro gjnoonan buoy49 bytesighs billstclair stylewarning xantoz ggoes jello_pudding flazh dddddd lottaquestions nullman SAL9000 gigetoo CrazyEddy jbgg lonjil Lord_Nightmare borodust AdmiralBumbleBee remexre 2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: FennecCode ibinderwolf karstensrage anddam cpt_nemo dxtr lemoinem zagura dmiles shoshin seisatsu heredoc_ antoszka beaky bacterio goldrin1227[m] eschatologist davsebamse terpri dvdmuckle gabiruh kagevf easye micro mankaev bhartrihari interruptinuse eta dale datajerk Inoperable splittist ChoHag Cthulhux jackdaniel dim femi no-defun-allowed ramin saturn2 hiredman knobo moon-child mikecheck kingcons copec Kaisyu7 h11 thijso mtd cpape` ramus @fe[nl]ix 2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: terrorjack creat drewc matijja _Ark_ Khisanth tychoish Krystof vhost- drot Yardanico gum materialfuture[m kinope infra_red[m] fwoaroof[m] Gnuxie[m] Dmytro[m] cairn malm joast flip214 rixard HDurer loke Demosthenex jurov hvxgr cyberbanjo jonathan| SumoSud0 otwieracz APic mister_m z0d Christ0pher |3b| winny cods MetaYan Spooktober phadthai Robdgreat Plazma emacsomancer nitrix Tordek vert2 cgay jdz ravndal brass ck_ mseddon madand kini jxy trittweiler 2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: lowryder shrysr stux|RC-only andinus gpiero hdasch samebchase- r3x5 mood hjudt grobe0ba simplegauss mbrumlow wigust jfb4 srji yang alandipert HiRE_ Frankenstein zigpaw1 elioat aap TMA Kabriel penguwin payphone stux|RC bonz060 ferada Ziemas ult Odin- Nikotiini kbtr rumpelszn Grue`` justinmcp mgr_ xristos phoe kim\ felideon _death mrSpec [df] Ankhers Blkt eMBee catern jgkamat fengshaun nightfly_ ozzloy shenghi gabot swflint xi null_ptr azrazalea 2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: fiddlerwoaroof lieven esotericalgo jackhill Ekho himmAllRight17 mr_yogurt tomaw brandonz zymurgy devrtz snits markasoftware eagleflo sukaeto dlowe Firedancer_ cmatei sbryant add^_ samebchase cyberlard 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till you've reached the OR operator in it but do you people actually do real world things with lisp? 2020-10-06T06:27:42Z yoel joined #lisp 2020-10-06T06:28:05Z yoel is now known as Guest68311 2020-10-06T06:28:19Z no-defun-allowed: "Having asked about the possibility that there are real people out there who use LISP (as opposed to AI People who are known to be non-real) and having received no answers, I can only conclude that LISP is not being used and that it is not, therefore, a real language." 2020-10-06T06:28:51Z yoeljacobsen joined #lisp 2020-10-06T06:29:08Z Guest68311 quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-06T06:30:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T06:30:14Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T06:30:28Z mseddon: wah 2020-10-06T06:31:39Z no-defun-allowed: The closing words of "The key of Lisp", a short-lived article series in Lisp Pointers. 2020-10-06T06:33:14Z mseddon: oh, heh. I thought it was far less self-aware than that. 2020-10-06T06:34:11Z decentyousername quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-10-06T06:34:58Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-06T06:36:46Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T06:38:15Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-06T06:41:11Z mseddon: I just read the first one, it's quite thoughtful actually. 2020-10-06T06:41:20Z iissaacc quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-06T06:43:43Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-06T06:44:49Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T06:45:02Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T06:45:33Z markasoftware: How do I get a char code as ascii? I don't want utf-8, which is what char-code in sbcl does by default 2020-10-06T06:47:31Z sm2n: utf8 is a strict superset of ascii... 2020-10-06T06:47:46Z markasoftware: oh the issue seems to be in read-line, nevermind 2020-10-06T06:47:59Z markasoftware: seems you are right sm2n 2020-10-06T06:50:11Z aeth: you restrict it to (unsigned-byte 7) and do something if you're outside of that range. 2020-10-06T06:51:32Z sm2n: that is insufficient 2020-10-06T06:51:50Z aeth: CHECK-TYPE? it works. SETF AREF? No, the array might become an octet one 2020-10-06T06:52:27Z sm2n: actually, nvm 2020-10-06T06:53:08Z sm2n: I had a brain fart, I was thinking some of the following bytes after a multibyte indicator could have a 0 in msb 2020-10-06T06:53:20Z sm2n: but that's not how utf8 works 2020-10-06T06:59:10Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-06T07:01:33Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-10-06T07:02:34Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-10-06T07:03:15Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-10-06T07:04:05Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-06T07:05:03Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-10-06T07:08:38Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T07:14:15Z krid` quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-06T07:16:52Z JohnTalent quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-06T07:18:18Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-06T07:18:25Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-06T07:18:43Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-06T07:25:41Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T07:29:23Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T07:31:11Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 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#lisp 2020-10-06T09:59:32Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:00:11Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:08:06Z schweers: The hyperspec claims that a function name is either "A symbol or a list (setf symbol) ...". Is SETF the only instance where a list is valid, or is this a more general mechanism? 2020-10-06T10:08:07Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:08:46Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:11:27Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:12:30Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:12:54Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:13:00Z no-defun-allowed: Some implementations allow for lists starting with other symbols (eg SBCL), but it's not standard. 2020-10-06T10:13:07Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:13:17Z jdz: "Claim" is not the right word, "asserts" might be more appropriate. 2020-10-06T10:14:17Z jdz: Or just "states." 2020-10-06T10:14:43Z jdz: (It seems to me that "claims" can be challenged.) 2020-10-06T10:15:23Z phoe: schweers: in portable CL, it's only SETF 2020-10-06T10:16:08Z schweers: I’m slightly confused about how it works for SETF anyway, so be honest. 2020-10-06T10:16:50Z phoe: (defvar *foo*) (defun foo () *foo*) (defun (setf foo) (newval) (setf *foo* newval)) 2020-10-06T10:17:34Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:17:35Z phoe: then, (funcall #'(setf foo) 42) 2020-10-06T10:17:42Z abbe joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:17:43Z schweers: I think I put that in a confusing way. I know how to use it, and it’s super convienient. It just doesn’t quite fit my mental model of how function names and DEFUN work 2020-10-06T10:17:57Z schweers: And by extension DEFGENERIC and DEFMETHOD. 2020-10-06T10:18:30Z phoe: a name is a name, it doesn't matter much for the underlying system whether you call it setf-foo or (setf foo) 2020-10-06T10:18:33Z schweers: Although, I never new that #'(setf foo) could work 2020-10-06T10:18:46Z phoe: (fdefinition '(setf foo)) also works 2020-10-06T10:18:47Z schweers: *never knew 2020-10-06T10:18:54Z schweers: huh, interesting. 2020-10-06T10:20:20Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:20:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T10:20:58Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:24:24Z phoe: a name is a name 2020-10-06T10:24:47Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:25:43Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T10:25:57Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:25:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T10:26:22Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:26:31Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T10:26:50Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:29:55Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:30:05Z jackdaniel: this is a very ugly exception in the language 2020-10-06T10:33:13Z rogersm quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:13Z abbe quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:13Z tfb quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:13Z mjl quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:14Z Patzy_ quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:14Z mgsk quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:14Z conjunctive quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:14Z diamondbond quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:14Z MrtnDk[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:14Z gingerale quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:14Z bitmapper quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:14Z larme quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:14Z parisienne quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:14Z thonkpod quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:33:14Z ThaEwat quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z abbe joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z mjl joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z tfb joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z Patzy_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z mgsk joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z conjunctive joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z diamondbond joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z gingerale joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z larme joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z parisienne joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z ThaEwat joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:34:41Z thonkpod joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:36:29Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:36:56Z flip214: when I have a TCP socket (via Hunchentoot's SEND-HEADERS), how would I check for it still being alive? 2020-10-06T10:37:13Z flip214: when I write some data I can see an error on FINISH-OUTPUT, but if I don't want to write? 2020-10-06T10:38:48Z schweers: I’m not sure that UNIX can do that, but I might be mistaken. 2020-10-06T10:39:27Z flip214: schweers: well, is there something like STREAM-READABLY-P? 2020-10-06T10:39:50Z jackdaniel: maybe stream-listen? 2020-10-06T10:39:51Z schweers: Oh, forget what I said. 2020-10-06T10:39:58Z flip214: AFAIU PEEK-CHAR might block, and I can't have that 2020-10-06T10:40:21Z schweers: Maybe you can do select/poll/epoll on the socket and check for errors? 2020-10-06T10:40:32Z schweers: I don’t know how to do that in Common Lisp off the top of my head though 2020-10-06T10:40:39Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:41:02Z decentyousername joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:41:33Z zulu-inuoe joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:41:35Z flip214: jackdaniel: "binds to interface HOST on PORT" ?? 2020-10-06T10:42:01Z flip214: ah, USOCKET:SOCKET-STATE sounds promising 2020-10-06T10:42:11Z decentyousername: Why is (mod -100 3) => 2? I expected it to be either 1 or -1. 2020-10-06T10:42:43Z decentyousername: oh nvm 2020-10-06T10:42:52Z decentyousername: I think I mixed it up with rem 2020-10-06T10:43:02Z jackdaniel: who is rem? 2020-10-06T10:43:20Z decentyousername: the remainder function 2020-10-06T10:43:48Z jackdaniel: I know, I've just acted silly by adding a reference to an anime 2020-10-06T10:44:01Z decentyousername: emilia > rem 2020-10-06T10:44:11Z flip214: now I need to figure out how to get the socket from the stream... 2020-10-06T10:44:12Z decentyousername: I also didn't like that anime. I stopped after half of it. 2020-10-06T10:44:34Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:45:02Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Quit: Bye !) 2020-10-06T10:45:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T10:45:05Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:45:17Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:48:47Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:48:47Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:48:49Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:49:23Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:50:27Z nullman joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:51:07Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:53:27Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T10:53:37Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:54:01Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T10:54:17Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T10:54:29Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-06T10:55:48Z yoeljacobsen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:55:55Z jmercouris_ is now known as jmercouris 2020-10-06T10:57:30Z jmercouris: I have the following http://dpaste.com/A3BHTLKMP 2020-10-06T10:57:35Z jmercouris: when Y is NOT true 2020-10-06T10:57:40Z jmercouris: it will return NIL 2020-10-06T10:57:46Z jmercouris: and try to apply the function with NIL 2020-10-06T10:57:49Z jmercouris: how can I avoid this? 2020-10-06T10:58:08Z jmercouris: I want either some-operation to return a LIST or not append anything to the functional call 2020-10-06T10:58:27Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T10:58:39Z _death: (apply function-x (append (when ...) (when ...))) 2020-10-06T10:58:54Z jmercouris: it seems so obvious now... 2020-10-06T10:58:57Z jmercouris: thank you _death 2020-10-06T11:16:11Z flip214: hmmm, unix-simple-poll :output doesn't see when a socket has been closed... it says happily T 2020-10-06T11:20:48Z jdz: flip214: Closed on which end? 2020-10-06T11:21:19Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:26:20Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T11:26:58Z flip214: jdz: client-side. CLOSE_WAIT isn't noticed in poll(). 2020-10-06T11:27:42Z jdz: flip214: So your code closes the socket, and then uses unix-simple-poll to see if it's closed? 2020-10-06T11:28:34Z flip214: jdz: no, the client side closes the socket, but my thread on the hunchentoot side doesn't notice until the next write. 2020-10-06T11:31:09Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:31:10Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T11:32:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:32:39Z yoeljacobsen joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:34:50Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:35:27Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T11:35:40Z jdz: flip214: Oh, your side is not the client side. Anyway, sounds reasonable to me; I'd look at the implementation of unix-simple-poll to see what exactly it is doing. 2020-10-06T11:38:27Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:39:24Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T11:42:36Z jdz: Not sure if socket being closed is a pending error or not, and whether `errorfds' needs to be used to detect the situation. SBCL does not use `errorfds' parameter in unix-simple-poll, anyway. 2020-10-06T11:43:08Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:43:47Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:47:25Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T11:47:52Z Guest9607 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:49:25Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T11:50:23Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:50:34Z Guest9607 quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-06T11:53:37Z saganman quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2020-10-06T11:53:43Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:55:05Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:56:28Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T11:56:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-06T11:57:46Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:01:55Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T12:01:56Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T12:03:47Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T12:05:41Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:06:22Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:10:20Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-06T12:12:21Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:12:21Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T12:13:35Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:14:17Z yoeljacobsen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-06T12:22:14Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:23:38Z ljavorsk_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-06T12:23:55Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Quit: Bye !) 2020-10-06T12:26:52Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T12:27:25Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:27:25Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T12:27:54Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:28:53Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:31:01Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T12:31:34Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:33:32Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T12:33:32Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:40:37Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-10-06T12:41:07Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:43:22Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:44:08Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T12:44:58Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:52:53Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:58:38Z pok joined #lisp 2020-10-06T12:59:07Z decentyousername quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T12:59:30Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:00:43Z ludston quit (Quit: -a- IRC for Android 2.1.57) 2020-10-06T13:02:06Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:02:12Z ldb: good evening 2020-10-06T13:03:16Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:05:30Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:05:38Z ebrasca: ldb: Hi 2020-10-06T13:06:13Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2020-10-06T13:06:30Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:06:48Z ldb: ebrasca: hello 2020-10-06T13:07:03Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T13:07:08Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T13:07:38Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:07:46Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:10:55Z davepdot_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T13:11:05Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Quit: Bye !) 2020-10-06T13:11:14Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T13:11:51Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:12:50Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T13:13:25Z Bourne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T13:13:44Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:16:04Z phoe: heyyy 2020-10-06T13:16:26Z phoe: flip214: stuff like this is exactly why I decided to screw raw sockets and learned to love zeromq 2020-10-06T13:16:48Z phoe: and pzmq is a really nice library for handling it 2020-10-06T13:17:27Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T13:17:39Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:18:06Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:18:33Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:20:08Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T13:23:02Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:23:07Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T13:23:11Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:23:29Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T13:25:51Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:26:56Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T13:27:15Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:28:04Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T13:28:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T13:28:31Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:29:29Z rixard_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:31:19Z achilles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T13:31:57Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Quit: Bye !) 2020-10-06T13:32:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-06T13:33:18Z rixard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-06T13:34:22Z flip214: Can I check for NIL in ETYPECASE? (NULL ...) or (NIL ...) don't work 2020-10-06T13:36:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T13:36:35Z flip214: ah, (NULL ...) does the trick after all. 2020-10-06T13:37:01Z Bike: yeah, null = (eql nil). nil as a type is the bottom type, so a nil clause in typecase will be unreachable 2020-10-06T13:37:18Z mseddon: oh, the infinite meanings of nil. :) 2020-10-06T13:37:41Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:37:53Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:38:05Z mseddon: to be fair it's not too bad, although generic functions and nil == null vs empty list trips me up 2020-10-06T13:38:22Z ym555 quit (Quit: leaving...) 2020-10-06T13:38:39Z mseddon: at least in the type system it has one meaning, _|_ 2020-10-06T13:40:18Z postit joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:40:52Z ldb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T13:40:59Z postit quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-06T13:41:24Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:41:43Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:42:39Z krid` joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:48:07Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T13:48:48Z Lord_of_Life quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) 2020-10-06T13:48:55Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Quit: Bye !) 2020-10-06T13:49:25Z decentyousername joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:50:03Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:52:39Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:53:05Z contrapunctus: mseddon: how do generic functions trip you up? 🤔 2020-10-06T13:53:08Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:53:35Z mseddon: not generic functions themselves, but that nil can mean both null and the empty list. meaning you can get interesting effects 2020-10-06T13:53:55Z phoe: mseddon: what do you mean? 2020-10-06T13:54:01Z Bike: you mean, both false and the empty list? 2020-10-06T13:54:05Z mseddon: yeah 2020-10-06T13:54:17Z phoe: oh, that 2020-10-06T13:54:19Z phoe: it's practical 2020-10-06T13:54:37Z mseddon: yeah it kinda makes sense. and I'm not sure if schemes #t #f () etc is a better approach 2020-10-06T13:54:52Z mseddon: I like nil punning 2020-10-06T13:55:17Z mseddon: but it snagged me a couple of times since I picked up lisp again 2020-10-06T13:56:05Z jackdaniel: another ugly exception ,) 2020-10-06T13:56:21Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:56:51Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:57:36Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:57:39Z ldb: Well, multiple return value 2020-10-06T13:58:07Z yonkunas joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:58:59Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T13:58:59Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T13:59:02Z mseddon: oh yes, it's 100% user error on my part :) 2020-10-06T13:59:45Z ldb quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1)) 2020-10-06T14:00:01Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Quit: Bye !) 2020-10-06T14:00:04Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:00:04Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T14:00:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:00:29Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T14:00:43Z mseddon: but years of searching for a 'better' dialect, and I'm back here, which says something that while it's quite quirky, the quirks have been extremely well tamed to fit together. 2020-10-06T14:01:06Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-06T14:01:55Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T14:02:03Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T14:02:12Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:02:14Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:03:53Z jackdaniel: ldb: is it a value that you return multiple times? 2020-10-06T14:03:58Z jackdaniel: what with it? ,) 2020-10-06T14:05:39Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:05:47Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T14:11:09Z treflip quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 2020-10-06T14:15:01Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:17:20Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:20:54Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-06T14:21:59Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:23:29Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:24:05Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:25:54Z frgo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-06T14:28:27Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T14:34:27Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T14:35:02Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:37:56Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:40:33Z saganman quit (Quit: sayoonara) 2020-10-06T14:41:26Z dra_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:42:37Z datajerk quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.3 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-06T14:42:50Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T14:42:56Z datajerk joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:43:01Z idxu_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:43:03Z dra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T14:43:19Z idxu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T14:43:35Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-10-06T14:45:09Z idxu_ is now known as idxu 2020-10-06T14:46:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T15:01:20Z mingus quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-06T15:01:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T15:01:22Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-06T15:03:00Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T15:05:46Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T15:06:35Z arpunk quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T15:07:27Z schweers quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T15:08:48Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-06T15:09:13Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2020-10-06T15:12:25Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T15:14:28Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-06T15:15:02Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-06T15:21:56Z Xach: I automated my bug reporting a bit and I'm blasting out a bunch of github issues. I hope it doesn't bug people. 2020-10-06T15:25:04Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T15:25:05Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T15:26:41Z easye: Xach: giving people more updates that they can unsubscribe from is a great use of automation. Is this the Quicklisp bug reporting? 2020-10-06T15:26:45Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T15:27:06Z Xach: Ja 2020-10-06T15:27:12Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T15:28:02Z Xach: So it's semiautomatic. It's doing what I already do manually - when I see a new failure, I send it to the project. But I was hand-writing the titles and descriptions, and copy-and-pasting links. Now a program scrapes it all together - i still pull the trigger on submitting it, and double-check that I haven't already reported it. 2020-10-06T15:28:12Z Xach: So it's not quite a firehose of info 2020-10-06T15:29:46Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-06T15:33:12Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-06T15:34:23Z Lord_of_Life quit (Quit: Laa shay'a waqi'un moutlaq bale kouloun moumkine) 2020-10-06T15:36:50Z motersen joined #lisp 2020-10-06T15:43:51Z phoe: Xach: I am sorry 2020-10-06T15:43:54Z phoe: https://i.imgur.com/gcUEkAN.png 2020-10-06T15:54:38Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T15:57:16Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-10-06T15:57:56Z rogersm: I recall many years ago to have our web front end for a big bank dump our traces automatically to our bug system. 2020-10-06T15:58:28Z rogersm: Someone said that the number of errors was so high that the bug system would not be able to cope with it 2020-10-06T15:58:40Z rogersm: traces = error traces generated by the app I mean 2020-10-06T15:58:45Z rogersm: I was young and naive 2020-10-06T16:04:47Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T16:05:55Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:11:46Z cjv joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:12:21Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver) 2020-10-06T16:12:26Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:13:43Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T16:16:00Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:16:50Z srhm joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:18:59Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T16:19:04Z blackadder joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:24:16Z dbotton__ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:26:09Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:29:11Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-06T16:29:22Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:29:24Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T16:29:54Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:30:19Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-06T16:30:58Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T16:30:59Z dbotton_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T16:31:02Z blackadder: (listp '()) and (atom '()) both says T. How can this be? 2020-10-06T16:31:10Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:31:13Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:31:15Z White_Flame: an atom is a non-cons 2020-10-06T16:31:33Z White_Flame: () is not a cons cell, although you can ask of the CAR & CDR without error 2020-10-06T16:31:48Z White_Flame: also () is symbolp as well, because of the equivalence with the symbol NIL 2020-10-06T16:31:51Z blackadder: but that's a list right? 2020-10-06T16:31:54Z White_Flame: yes 2020-10-06T16:31:59Z White_Flame: a list is a cons or nil/() 2020-10-06T16:32:45Z phoe: NIL, also known as (), is the only thing that is both a list and a symbol 2020-10-06T16:33:52Z beach: clhs list 2020-10-06T16:33:53Z blackadder: yeah, I just did car and cdr 2020-10-06T16:33:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm 2020-10-06T16:34:09Z amb007 quit (Quit: Quit) 2020-10-06T16:34:55Z beach: blackadder: That's for historical reasons and a bit of an aberration. And it is not related to your original question. 2020-10-06T16:35:34Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-06T16:36:00Z beach: blackadder: It is just that the system classes CONS and NULL are both subclasses of the system class LIST. 2020-10-06T16:36:47Z blackadder: where does () become symbol? 2020-10-06T16:36:58Z blackadder: is null symbol? 2020-10-06T16:37:00Z phoe: it doesn't need to become it 2020-10-06T16:37:02Z beach: In the reader. 2020-10-06T16:37:08Z phoe: it is a symbol 2020-10-06T16:37:15Z beach: When the reader sees (), it return the symbol NIL. 2020-10-06T16:37:32Z blackadder: oh 2020-10-06T16:37:37Z White_Flame: and when it sees NIL, it returns the same symbol NIL 2020-10-06T16:37:44Z phoe: do you know how cons cells/lists work? 2020-10-06T16:37:48Z beach: Try (read-from-string "()") 2020-10-06T16:37:51Z White_Flame: (assuming default packaging is in view) 2020-10-06T16:38:16Z phoe: you know, the stuff where (1) == (1 . NIL), (1 2 3) === (1 . (2 . (3 . NIL))), and so on 2020-10-06T16:38:40Z blackadder: beach, NIL 2 2020-10-06T16:39:01Z phoe: yes; NIL is the thing that it read, 2 is the position where it stopped in the string 2020-10-06T16:39:02Z blackadder: yes phoe, I learned that 2020-10-06T16:40:12Z phoe: good - then NIL is the symbol that is also the empty list that is also the value of falsehood 2020-10-06T16:40:23Z phoe: s/the symbol/a symbol/ 2020-10-06T16:40:46Z White_Flame: () and NIL are literally the same singular object 2020-10-06T16:41:02Z White_Flame: it just is defined to work with both list and symbol functions 2020-10-06T16:41:11Z beach: That's not quite true. 2020-10-06T16:41:48Z beach: () and NIL are two character sequences that, when the reader sees them, it creates the same object, provided default reader macros, etc. 2020-10-06T16:41:50Z blackadder: it can be used as empty list and NIL depending on context 2020-10-06T16:42:09Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:42:10Z White_Flame: *() and NIL represent the same singular object 2020-10-06T16:42:32Z paul0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T16:44:19Z theBlackDragon quit (Quit: Boom.) 2020-10-06T16:46:15Z blackadder: sorry for silly questions peeps, thanks for clarifying 2020-10-06T16:48:25Z White_Flame: no prob. You'll get very complete, pedantic answers here. #clschool can be more newbie friendly if it's overwhelming 2020-10-06T16:49:23Z decentyousername: this is the what makes you people so valuable. 2020-10-06T16:49:51Z decentyousername: No generic platitudes or vague answers. 2020-10-06T16:49:52Z decentyousername: <3 2020-10-06T16:50:13Z jayspeer joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:50:13Z phoe: blackadder: no point in being sorry, every single one of us asked basic questions at some point in time 2020-10-06T16:50:44Z phoe: and only ended up being sorta good at lisp because they got the answers they needed 2020-10-06T16:50:52Z blackadder: phoe, yeah 2020-10-06T16:51:59Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:53:34Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:53:34Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T16:54:13Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-10-06T16:54:54Z dra_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-06T16:58:23Z nckx quit (Quit: Updating my Guix System — https://guix.gnu.org) 2020-10-06T16:58:51Z _paul0 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-06T17:10:05Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T17:11:47Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T17:12:58Z nckx joined #lisp 2020-10-06T17:14:56Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-06T17:20:35Z decentyousername: Is it alright to not setf a variable, after calling #'sort on it, because the object is being modified anyway. Or is that not portable? 2020-10-06T17:21:31Z jackdaniel: you must always assign the variable 2020-10-06T17:22:19Z jackdaniel: fact that it is a destructive operation means, that your variable may i.e contain the last cons of the resulting list 2020-10-06T17:22:38Z jackdaniel: it is the return value contains the reference to the sorted list 2020-10-06T17:23:09Z jackdaniel: our CI failed, because roswell is coded in C, banzai 2020-10-06T17:23:33Z decentyousername: Ok, so destructive really means it fucking destroys the object and you should not longer use that object, because who knows how it got messed up, right? 2020-10-06T17:23:46Z jackdaniel: scratch the CI part 2020-10-06T17:23:50Z jackdaniel: it's for another channel 2020-10-06T17:24:13Z jackdaniel: I don't know what it does while destryoing the object, could be fucking 2020-10-06T17:24:14Z decentyousername unreads the CI part. 2020-10-06T17:24:33Z decentyousername: [-] _ [-] 2020-10-06T17:24:44Z White_Flame: decentyousername: it reuses the cons cells in whatever way it wants to. 2020-10-06T17:25:02Z decentyousername: so I can't rely on it. 2020-10-06T17:25:07Z decentyousername: roger that! 2020-10-06T17:25:26Z White_Flame: so yeah, your original variable is pointing to some arbitrary cons cell that may be anywhere in the list, or may not even part of the list anymore 2020-10-06T17:25:53Z nyd quit (Quit: nyd) 2020-10-06T17:25:53Z decentyousername: I'm talking about sequences in general, but if we want to use lists as an example that's alright. 2020-10-06T17:26:23Z White_Flame: yeah, arrays are likely "safer" in that regard, but there are no guarantees. The function is allowed to cons up a new one, too 2020-10-06T17:26:30Z jackdaniel: if you don't want to destroy the object, you may copy sequence first 2020-10-06T17:27:04Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T17:28:43Z _death: decentyousername: it _may_ modify the object.. but then it may not.. so it could return a copy of the sequence and if you don't use that result, you don't get the sorted sequence.. sometimes the standard mandates in-place modification, but not in the case of SORT 2020-10-06T17:31:53Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T17:40:26Z _death: also, if you want to get a good shiver down your spine, consider the following section and the amount of code that's "unaware" of it 2020-10-06T17:40:30Z _death: clhs 3.7.2.1 2020-10-06T17:40:30Z specbot: Examples of Transfer of Control during a Destructive Operation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_gba.htm 2020-10-06T17:41:06Z jayspeer quit (Quit: going home; c u) 2020-10-06T17:44:14Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-10-06T17:45:23Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T17:45:33Z _death: this is not limited to Lisp, of course, or even to programming.. 2020-10-06T17:49:52Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T17:53:19Z Bike: does that actually come up much? 2020-10-06T17:55:59Z decentyousername: how do I open links in weechat? Does anyone know that? 2020-10-06T17:56:28Z decentyousername starts typing in the url manually 2020-10-06T17:57:06Z _death: I don't know how often it happens, but when it does.. 2020-10-06T17:58:44Z _death: it's one more good reason to use nondestructive variants by default 2020-10-06T17:58:44Z decentyousername: _daeth: those examples sure are scary 2020-10-06T17:59:18Z decentyousername: But I'm all about that efficiency. I need to use bitvectors everywhere or my programs will be too slow. 2020-10-06T17:59:37Z decentyousername: (irony-mode -1) 2020-10-06T18:10:41Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-10-06T18:12:16Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-10-06T18:16:31Z blackadder quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-06T18:20:49Z decentyousername quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-10-06T18:23:08Z decentyousername joined #lisp 2020-10-06T18:24:08Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Quit: Bye !) 2020-10-06T18:26:03Z bocaneri quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T18:27:56Z rogersm_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T18:30:39Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T18:31:42Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T18:32:52Z rogersm_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T18:34:07Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T18:38:52Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-10-06T18:46:29Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:01:30Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T19:02:08Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:08:02Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T19:08:22Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:11:45Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:15:12Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:15:26Z Steeve joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:15:49Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:16:13Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-06T19:17:05Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T19:18:26Z arpunk joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:21:06Z Lycurgus quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T19:21:44Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T19:21:50Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:22:55Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T19:24:18Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-10-06T19:25:40Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:26:07Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:26:49Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:28:42Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T19:29:20Z shaman_king joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:29:24Z shaman_king: lisp is terrible. 2020-10-06T19:29:36Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T19:30:29Z jackdaniel: it is; what now? 2020-10-06T19:30:44Z shaman_king: hi 2020-10-06T19:30:49Z shaman_king: are you the guy from pauldotcom ? 2020-10-06T19:31:18Z jackdaniel: no 2020-10-06T19:31:24Z shaman_king: why not 2020-10-06T19:32:33Z shaman_king: lisp sucks ass. 2020-10-06T19:32:38Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel 2020-10-06T19:32:42Z shaman_king: pussy 2020-10-06T19:32:43Z jackdaniel has set mode +b *!*b94186aa@185.65.134.* 2020-10-06T19:32:48Z shaman_king [~jack@turtleware.eu] has been kicked from #lisp by jackdaniel (shaman_king) 2020-10-06T19:33:06Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jackdaniel 2020-10-06T19:33:12Z Steeve: Thank you 2020-10-06T19:33:19Z jackdaniel: pleasure 2020-10-06T19:34:36Z _death: may want to generalize the banmask, phoe banned him the other day as well 2020-10-06T19:34:53Z jackdaniel: that is beyond my irc skill :) 2020-10-06T19:36:09Z Steeve: Was doing same thing in another channel and I said 12:29:19 Steeve | Think about all the cool stuff you could learn if you directed the time you're spending doing this....into learning new stuff 2020-10-06T19:36:15Z Steeve: Was not effective 2020-10-06T19:40:48Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:43:54Z decentyousername quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-10-06T19:46:01Z decentyousername joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:47:38Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:47:48Z defunkydrummer joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:51:38Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:51:47Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T19:52:15Z defunkydrummer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-06T19:52:15Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T19:52:47Z kaftejiman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T19:53:12Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:53:39Z ebrasca: Steeve: I think he may be more interested in someting like "Imagine how much more you can ruin others lifes if you learn new skills". 2020-10-06T19:53:43Z defunkydrummer joined #lisp 2020-10-06T19:54:09Z Steeve: yeah so much effort, for no return...*and* being a negative influence on other peoples' days 2020-10-06T19:54:10Z Steeve: no good 2020-10-06T20:04:40Z defunkydrummer: @Steeve i've seen worse attitudes to be honest 2020-10-06T20:05:29Z defunkydrummer: in any case, it will happen to all communities not just this one 2020-10-06T20:05:41Z defunkydrummer: by the way, good morning from the far away country of Peru 2020-10-06T20:07:03Z Steeve: Good morning - hello from the United States! 2020-10-06T20:07:25Z ebrasca: it is 22:07 ... 2020-10-06T20:09:24Z defunkydrummer: @ebrasca there's an old, ancient rule that it's always "good morning" on the internet 2020-10-06T20:10:48Z defunkydrummer: i would like to know if somebody has actually used the LSP (language server protocol) plugin out there for visual studio code, and how acceptable was it. I use SLIME, btw. But i'm planning to teach CL to one or two devs in my team and perhaps this wouold make the learning curve gentler. But i don't have any idea of how acceptable is that plugin or the experience. 2020-10-06T20:10:57Z ebrasca: I think in Peru it is like 15:10 2020-10-06T20:11:34Z defunkydrummer: or in any case if somebody has used another "modern" (read: popular with the younger generation) editor for CL development, i'm all ears for knowning how good was the experience 2020-10-06T20:11:40Z defunkydrummer: @ebrasca indeed 2020-10-06T20:12:21Z ebrasca: defunkydrummer: I have see one friend to try lisp with Atom. 2020-10-06T20:13:20Z rogersm quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T20:13:41Z ebrasca: defunkydrummer: I failed to convince him to program in lisp. 2020-10-06T20:14:18Z phoe: defunkydrummer: I know that sublime has its plugin that's in development 2020-10-06T20:14:27Z phoe: same with atom 2020-10-06T20:14:32Z phoe: both of them use swank 2020-10-06T20:14:32Z defunkydrummer: @ebrasca but have you tried the atom plugin? is it ... acceptable ? 2020-10-06T20:14:43Z decentyousername quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-06T20:14:44Z defunkydrummer: well, if it uses swank that a good thing 2020-10-06T20:15:32Z defunkydrummer: i mean, if it's able to jump to definitions, inspect almost any value, and be able to inspect stack frames, and macroexpand step by step, it would be fine for educational purposes IMO 2020-10-06T20:15:54Z defunkydrummer: i wonder if the atom or sublime plugins comply with these features 2020-10-06T20:16:14Z phoe: never used them extensively, so I cannot really say much about them 2020-10-06T20:16:18Z srhm quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T20:16:24Z phoe: I guess you could download and check them out, and/or open some github issues along the way 2020-10-06T20:20:40Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-06T20:26:44Z kaftejiman__ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T20:28:46Z kaftejiman_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-06T20:30:22Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T20:30:49Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-06T20:31:52Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T20:34:28Z kaftejiman__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T20:37:22Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-06T20:39:56Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-06T20:42:48Z contrapunctus: I was just thinking...what if I made a shell script called, say, `cl`, meant to be used as an hash bang interpreter for Lisp scripts? It'd load the file using the first installed Lisp it can find...and voilà, portable Lisp scripts! (Well, if it were that easy, I'm guessing someone would have done it by now?) 2020-10-06T20:44:09Z sm2n: contrapunctus, https://fare.livejournal.com/184127.html 2020-10-06T20:44:19Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T20:44:37Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T20:46:37Z cosimone quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-10-06T20:48:47Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-10-06T20:49:41Z cosimone_ quit (Quit: cosimone_) 2020-10-06T20:50:32Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-06T20:52:37Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-06T20:53:26Z contrapunctus: sm2n: lol, thanks. I knew there are like ten solutions for the task, but never investigated any in depth. 2020-10-06T20:54:22Z Xach: i found cl-launch too difficult to use and had to make something simpler to make progress 2020-10-06T20:56:34Z phoe: I think that roswell also attempts to solve this problem 2020-10-06T20:57:49Z ebrasca: What about Mezzano? 2020-10-06T20:58:54Z ebrasca: Then you don't need any of this libreryes. 2020-10-06T21:00:00Z ebrasca: Do some of this methods use lisp as some tipe of daemon? 2020-10-06T21:01:08Z contrapunctus: I guess I can just use the SBCL hash bang invocation for personal scripts which I don't need to distribute... 🤔 2020-10-06T21:01:26Z Xach: contrapunctus: or use emacs! 2020-10-06T21:01:29Z Xach: and call functions 2020-10-06T21:01:37Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T21:03:05Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-10-06T21:03:37Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:04:26Z ebrasca thinks about structure editor vs plain text editor. 2020-10-06T21:05:36Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T21:06:27Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:08:53Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T21:10:27Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:10:36Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:11:31Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:11:41Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:12:56Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-06T21:13:25Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-06T21:14:25Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T21:14:48Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:17:36Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T21:19:15Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:19:16Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:19:18Z defunkydrummer: @¢ontrapuntcus you can always create some simple bash script that takes the name of the lisp script and hands it over to SBCL or other CL implementation so it's loaded and executed immediately 2020-10-06T21:26:24Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-06T21:30:00Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2020-10-06T21:31:14Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T21:31:17Z akoana: contrapunctus: I use a simple bash script for SBCL (as defunkydrummer suggested), see https://termbin.com/92ed 2020-10-06T21:31:58Z abhixec joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:32:38Z contrapunctus: defunkydrummer, akoana: isn't that basically the cl-launch approach, then? 🤔 2020-10-06T21:33:50Z defunkydrummer: @contrapunctus no idea. I haven't seen cl-launch. To be honest, this approach is so simple, i don't see any need for a special library or program 2020-10-06T21:34:02Z akoana: contrapunctus: hmm, I don't know/use cl-launch, sorry 2020-10-06T21:34:29Z defunkydrummer: additionally, i seldom use Lisp for "scripts", i usually use it for full on systems that need to run as a service; in that case i configure things so the program runs as a UNIX service 2020-10-06T21:34:55Z defunkydrummer: i mean, Lisp is not really a "shell scripting" language, although you can use it as such 2020-10-06T21:35:30Z contrapunctus: defunkydrummer, akoana: it seems to do this very thing, except implementation-portably 2020-10-06T21:35:58Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T21:37:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T21:37:21Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:37:46Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-06T21:40:10Z akoana: contrapunctus: probably, however I agree with defunkydrummer, it is so simple, no need for a library 2020-10-06T21:40:42Z defunkydrummer: @contrapunctus, well, if it's portable, not a bad thing 2020-10-06T21:41:21Z defunkydrummer: i mean, to each his own; it's good to know it exists. Just like roswell -- i don't need it, but it's good to know it exists and it works 2020-10-06T21:41:35Z defunkydrummer: somebody will find it useful and will benefit from it 2020-10-06T21:41:40Z akoana: well said 2020-10-06T21:42:37Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:45:17Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-06T21:45:49Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-06T21:46:47Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-06T21:48:32Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:49:14Z earl-ducaine joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:51:09Z sonologico joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:51:54Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-06T21:52:45Z Frankenstein is now known as Frankenlime 2020-10-06T21:53:01Z sts-q quit (Quit: -- PANIC -- The function `show_irc' expects one argument of type [irc], but it is given one argument of type [unit -> irc].) 2020-10-06T21:53:36Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-06T21:54:45Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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2020-10-07T03:46:27Z sts-q quit (Quit: -- PANIC -- Insufficient space for garbage collection.) 2020-10-07T03:46:43Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-07T03:47:47Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T03:56:56Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-07T03:56:57Z defunkydrummer: good morning beach 2020-10-07T04:05:43Z sts-q quit (Quit: ) 2020-10-07T04:06:11Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-07T04:18:27Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T04:18:39Z beach: defunkydrummer: As I recall, the LSP was not meant for interactive languages, so there is essential functionality missing when it comes to a language such as Common Lisp. 2020-10-07T04:19:01Z defunkydrummer: yes, i know 2020-10-07T04:19:21Z beach: But I know scymtym has been working on LSP for Common Lisp, so I think there might be something available. 2020-10-07T04:19:24Z defunkydrummer: i'm quite happy with emacs+slime, but i was thinking on onboarding newcomers, youngsters without the friction of Emacs 2020-10-07T04:20:07Z defunkydrummer: i mean first they need to focus on learning the language, not the editor 2020-10-07T04:20:19Z beach: I understand your point. 2020-10-07T04:20:53Z beach: Those youngsters should watch "The Last Programming Language" by Uncle Bob. He says Emacs will eventually surpass all those IDEs because of the power it has from being written in Lisp. 2020-10-07T04:20:53Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T04:21:45Z beach: I believe people working in languages such as Java think very highly of Uncle Bob. 2020-10-07T04:22:45Z krid` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T04:22:51Z beach: I don't personally believe he is right about that, but that's beside the point here. :) 2020-10-07T04:23:30Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T04:24:06Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T04:25:21Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T04:29:47Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T04:31:27Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T04:34:30Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-07T04:37:51Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-07T04:41:30Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T04:42:20Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-07T04:46:34Z defunkydrummer: @beach LOL not a bad idea. Indeed some of my devs believe in Uncle Bob. On the other hand, the only Bob i believe in is J.R. "Bob" Dobbs. 2020-10-07T04:46:43Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-07T04:48:46Z beach: defunkydrummer: The @-convention is not used on IRC. Just type the nick followed by colon. Your IRC client should complete for you. 2020-10-07T04:50:01Z defunkydrummer: thanks, it's the first time I use this client (hexchat) and I forgot the convention!!! 2020-10-07T04:50:25Z defunkydrummer: it's been a long time since i enter IRC and this channel 2020-10-07T04:50:44Z beach: I suggest you use ERC or some other Emacs IRC client. That way you have your abbrevs, your spell checker, and everything else available as usual. 2020-10-07T04:51:22Z defunkydrummer: but i missed some interaction with fellow lispers from this side of the world and from the other sinde of the world, like the people who tread around bordeaux... 2020-10-07T04:51:30Z beach: Try that with a modern IDE! :) 2020-10-07T04:51:45Z defunkydrummer: beach: thanks i'll take a look at ERC. I just forgot that i could do everything inside emacs. 2020-10-07T04:52:10Z beach: Are you saying that you have been to Bordeaux, or just that you interacted with some of us? 2020-10-07T04:52:59Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-07T04:53:02Z decentyousername joined #lisp 2020-10-07T04:56:29Z flavio_ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T04:58:57Z flavio_ quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-07T04:59:12Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T05:00:30Z defunkydrummer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T05:01:36Z defunkydrummer joined #lisp 2020-10-07T05:02:27Z defunkydrummer: beach: no, never been to bordeaux. I was just remembering that you were actually in bordeaux. And i want to make a pun on "tread" vs "threads" 2020-10-07T05:02:40Z beach: Heh, OK. 2020-10-07T05:02:41Z defunkydrummer: beach: actually i've never been in europe, only within continental america 2020-10-07T05:02:50Z beach: I see. 2020-10-07T05:02:58Z defunkydrummer: beach: i guess someday i'll visit europe, after all I have family there 2020-10-07T05:03:04Z anewuser joined #lisp 2020-10-07T05:03:14Z beach: Oh? Where? 2020-10-07T05:03:26Z defunkydrummer: beach: btw you don't have an idea the amount of people i have presented your CLOSOS.pdf to! 2020-10-07T05:03:43Z beach: Thank you! 2020-10-07T05:03:50Z beach: What did they think? 2020-10-07T05:03:54Z defunkydrummer: every time i'm tired of UNIX i start speaking about lisp machines and then invariably i give them the closos /lispm.pdf 2020-10-07T05:04:06Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-07T05:04:19Z defunkydrummer: beach: they don't say anything, they stay quiet. I am just planting seeds. Someday they will see the light. 2020-10-07T05:04:27Z defunkydrummer: just as I did 2020-10-07T05:04:32Z beach: Good plan. 2020-10-07T05:04:50Z defunkydrummer: and I thank @no-defun-allowed for showing me that pdf as well. (I guess the @ sign is correct here?) 2020-10-07T05:05:00Z beach: Nope. :) 2020-10-07T05:05:00Z defunkydrummer: +no-defun-allowed 2020-10-07T05:05:26Z defunkydrummer: (mention :no-defun-allowed) 2020-10-07T05:06:02Z defunkydrummer: (signal (make-condition 'alert :user :no-defun-allowed)) ; better this way? 2020-10-07T05:06:14Z beach: I do recommend "The Unix Haters Handbook". As I have said before, I deliberately did not read it for the longest time because I thought it was written by disgruntled old cranks, but the authors know quite well what they are talking about. 2020-10-07T05:06:53Z beach: The IRC client will highlight your own nick, and I believe some of them beep as well. 2020-10-07T05:06:58Z saganman: defunkydrummer: try rcirc, it is better than erc 2020-10-07T05:07:02Z beach: So just the nick will do. 2020-10-07T05:07:28Z saganman: Morning beach! 2020-10-07T05:07:34Z beach: Hello saganman. 2020-10-07T05:08:02Z defunkydrummer: beach: i have read a small part of The Unix Haters Handbook. It was a good laugh. 2020-10-07T05:08:14Z defunkydrummer: beach: i have come to respect disgrunted old cranks a lot... 2020-10-07T05:08:30Z defunkydrummer: morning saganman 2020-10-07T05:08:47Z saganman: Morning defunkydrummer 2020-10-07T05:08:56Z beach: I meant you could give it to your pals as a prerequisite for CLOSOS. 2020-10-07T05:09:16Z no-defun-allowed: defunkydrummer: I wasn't pinged, but the rules on what constitutes a ping on Matrix are absurd enough that I couldn't tell you what works. 2020-10-07T05:09:33Z no-defun-allowed: no-defun-allowed: Something like this consistently works. Mentioning no-defun-allowed...sometimes. 2020-10-07T05:10:00Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T05:11:07Z defunkydrummer: beach: i do mention the UNIX haters handbook as well, and I tell you "you know, even after these years, everything that it's on the UHH is still relevant today. we haven't advanced not a single bit." 2020-10-07T05:11:16Z anewuser quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T05:11:36Z beach: Indeed. 2020-10-07T05:11:52Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-07T05:11:59Z defunkydrummer: beach: then i get really cranky. I guess that with a little luck i can become a disgruntled old crank as well. I am already cranky and disgruntled, now I just need to become old!! WHEEEE! 2020-10-07T05:12:26Z beach: It typically happens sooner than you expect. 2020-10-07T05:12:37Z no-defun-allowed: There's some differences, like how my /home file system hasn't kicked the bucket after five years of random crashes, while the Handbook suggests such a system wouldn't last five days with that record back then. 2020-10-07T05:13:01Z no-defun-allowed: But yeah, it's basically still right. 2020-10-07T05:13:12Z defunkydrummer: no-defun-allowed: wow you're still awake. Still dealing with the nice RC filters and the horrible thing of complex numbers for phasors / voltage vs current phase differences etc? "Fucking inductors, how do they work?" 2020-10-07T05:14:05Z no-defun-allowed: It's only 4pm here (but EE homework probably goes in #lispcafe). 2020-10-07T05:14:41Z defunkydrummer: oh, sorry, wrong chat 2020-10-07T05:16:06Z defunkydrummer: no-defun-allowed: oops, i sometimes forgot we're at different time zones. It's midnight hour here. 00:15h; round about midnight as Miles Davis would play 2020-10-07T05:16:34Z defunkydrummer: i'll keep quiet now so people can get back to talk about s-expressions m-expressions fexprs and the like 2020-10-07T05:26:52Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-07T05:33:25Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T05:35:31Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-07T05:35:56Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-07T05:36:50Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-07T05:37:17Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-07T05:38:09Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-07T05:38:38Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-07T05:38:39Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-07T05:43:55Z decentyousername: Good morning 2020-10-07T05:46:42Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-07T05:47:05Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T05:51:27Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T05:51:35Z no-defun-allowed: Hello decentyousername 2020-10-07T05:52:43Z decentyousername: I've lost my irc password, so now I'm a pleb. 2020-10-07T05:54:52Z no-defun-allowed: As SBCL would say, "Congratulations!" 2020-10-07T06:02:59Z dmc00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T06:13:27Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-10-07T06:14:17Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T06:14:17Z ech quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T06:14:18Z hendursaga quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T06:14:18Z madage quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T06:14:18Z Aurora_v_kosmose quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T06:14:40Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-07T06:15:03Z Aurora_v_kosmose joined #lisp 2020-10-07T06:15:20Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-10-07T06:15:32Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-07T06:20:41Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T06:24:33Z ech joined #lisp 2020-10-07T06:25:53Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-07T06:26:01Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-07T06:30:05Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T06:34:44Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-07T06:34:52Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T06:39:22Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-07T06:39:58Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T06:41:55Z defunkydrummer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T06:50:47Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T06:52:50Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T06:56:48Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-07T06:58:07Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T06:59:19Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T06:59:48Z phoe: good morning 2020-10-07T06:59:51Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:01:36Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe. 2020-10-07T07:02:27Z beach: Hello phoe. 2020-10-07T07:03:12Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T07:03:17Z contrapunctus: decentyousername: https://keepassxc.org/ , https://www.passwordstore.org/ 2020-10-07T07:03:18Z beach: phoe: I'll try to be present this afternoon for the online Lisp meeting (13:00, yes?), but I am a bit preoccupied at the moment, so we'll see. 2020-10-07T07:03:52Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:04:16Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T07:04:25Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:04:32Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:07:19Z phoe: beach: OK 2020-10-07T07:08:33Z dbotton__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T07:08:57Z dbotton__ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:10:13Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:10:13Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-10-07T07:10:13Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:10:25Z glamas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:10:26Z CrazyEddy quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T07:10:46Z flip214: decentyousername: if you registered your email address you should be able to reset it 2020-10-07T07:10:58Z glamas joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:11:16Z h11 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:12:03Z h11 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:12:40Z Christ0pher quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:12:50Z emacsomancer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:13:03Z scymtym: do we have two presentations then? i'm asking because the eclector one is still about an hour long 2020-10-07T07:13:22Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:13:47Z Christ0pher joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:14:03Z scymtym: phoe: ^ 2020-10-07T07:15:58Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:16:19Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:17:43Z whiplash-4 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:17:45Z phoe: scymtym: no, just yours 2020-10-07T07:17:47Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:17:59Z phoe: beach will try to *be* present, not to present :) 2020-10-07T07:18:03Z whiplash-4 left #lisp 2020-10-07T07:18:28Z scymtym: phoe: beach: sorry for the confusion. i misread that 2020-10-07T07:18:51Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:19:01Z phoe: no problem, I guessed as much 2020-10-07T07:19:08Z notzmv` joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:20:25Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:21:15Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T07:21:37Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:23:05Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:26:26Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:26:29Z beach: scymtym: I am interested in the questions from the participants, so I'll try my best. 2020-10-07T07:26:56Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:27:16Z mmohammadi98126 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:27:42Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:29:08Z pve joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:29:43Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:30:20Z scymtym: beach: i will try to be there as well 2020-10-07T07:31:53Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:32:03Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:33:20Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:33:28Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-07T07:35:12Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:38:12Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:40:15Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:41:46Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T07:41:52Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:43:42Z bocaneri quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-07T07:44:09Z srhm joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:44:21Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:45:10Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:46:14Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:50:43Z schweers joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:50:55Z schweers quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-07T07:51:13Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:51:14Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:51:31Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:52:13Z davepdot_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T07:52:34Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:53:04Z schweers joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:57:29Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-07T07:58:16Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T07:59:16Z frot-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:02:40Z frot-lab is now known as hungrydonkey 2020-10-07T08:03:16Z motersen joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:03:20Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T08:04:09Z |3b| quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T08:04:49Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:05:28Z |3b| joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:06:56Z h11 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T08:07:53Z h11 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:08:34Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:09:17Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:10:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T08:10:36Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:12:22Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:12:27Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T08:14:02Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:15:23Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-07T08:15:34Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:18:07Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T08:18:23Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:19:26Z mmohammadi981266 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:20:53Z mmohammadi98126 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T08:24:29Z saganman is now known as nekosagan 2020-10-07T08:26:07Z mmohammadi981266 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-07T08:28:15Z hungrydonkey quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-10-07T08:30:42Z frot-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:31:03Z mmohammadi981266 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:32:08Z kreyren joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:32:11Z kreyren: kreyren@leonid:~$ MESSAGE=kreyren clisp test.lisp | ix && cat test.lisp | ix 2020-10-07T08:32:11Z kreyren: http://ix.io/2zY2 2020-10-07T08:32:11Z kreyren: http://ix.io/2zY3 2020-10-07T08:32:13Z kreyren: wtf x.x 2020-10-07T08:32:39Z kreyren: i guess irelevant warning assuming that i am using quicklisp right 2020-10-07T08:35:06Z rtypo joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:40:57Z phoe: huh? what do you mean 2020-10-07T08:41:46Z _death: may want to verify your pastes manually before you dump them here 2020-10-07T08:41:58Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:42:58Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T08:43:08Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:45:16Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-07T08:45:47Z kreyren: _death, i did 2020-10-07T08:45:54Z kreyren: ahh 2020-10-07T08:45:55Z kreyren: i didn't! 2020-10-07T08:48:13Z kreyren: it was outputting: `WARNING: DEFGENERIC: redefining function DIST in /home/kreyren/.cache/common-lisp/clisp-2.49.92-unix-x64/home/kreyren/quicklisp/quicklisp/dist.fas, was defined in top-level` before but now i can't reproduce it x.x 2020-10-07T08:48:47Z iissaacc: anyone know of a way of mimicing zlib's Z_SYNC_FLUSH behaviour with a common lisp deflate library? 2020-10-07T08:48:48Z kreyren: so i guess fixed o.o 2020-10-07T08:50:03Z _death: kreyren: indeed quicklisp produces such warnings.. as a workaround you can use muffle-warning.. as a potential solution you can submit a pull request 2020-10-07T08:50:41Z kreyren: _death, i wanted to ask if it's safe to ignore these assuming runtime, but now i am confused to why are these no longer reproducable O.o 2020-10-07T08:50:54Z kreyren is working on https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47 2020-10-07T08:51:56Z phoe: kreyren: possibly because you are loading your stuff from caches/compiled FASLs 2020-10-07T08:52:04Z phoe: try removing ~/.cache/common-lisp/ 2020-10-07T08:52:33Z cjv quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-07T08:52:49Z beach: scymtym: Well, if you can't and I can, I'll try to answer questions. 2020-10-07T08:53:11Z kreyren: phoe, that's it! thanks 2020-10-07T08:53:11Z scymtym: beach: thanks, but it is looking good so far 2020-10-07T08:53:51Z beach: Whew! :) 2020-10-07T08:54:11Z cjv joined #lisp 2020-10-07T08:54:57Z kreyren: So assuming that the warnings are sane to ignore.. how do i silence them? `--quiet` doesn't work on them x.x 2020-10-07T08:55:23Z kreyren has this file http://ix.io/2zY8 that he wants to adapt to be able to interpret quicklisp on any implementation 2020-10-07T08:55:35Z kreyren: (to be able to file https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47) 2020-10-07T08:56:07Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T08:57:38Z nekosagan: why do I get NIL with (member '(1 2) '((1 2) (3 4)))? The first argument (1 2) is top level element in the second argument? 2020-10-07T08:57:45Z kreyren: (the issue has probably misinformations atm.. i will do peer-review once i finish researching the arguments) 2020-10-07T08:58:02Z phoe: nekosagan: use the EQUAL test 2020-10-07T08:58:16Z phoe: conses are not EQL-comparable and MEMBER uses EQL by default 2020-10-07T08:58:37Z phoe: kreyren: hm 2020-10-07T08:58:48Z kreyren: o.o 2020-10-07T08:58:48Z phoe: I am looking at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/blob/b525ae5a4db984bf96a33b9c7379b3b13a4edd98/quicklisp/dist.lisp and wondering where DIST is getting redefined 2020-10-07T08:59:01Z nekosagan: I see, thanks phoe 2020-10-07T08:59:18Z kreyren: phoe, i am using quicklisp from the website 2020-10-07T08:59:25Z kreyren: https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp 2020-10-07T08:59:40Z phoe: yes, and I am looking at its sources 2020-10-07T09:00:15Z kreyren: oke o.o 2020-10-07T09:01:53Z phoe: I cannot reproduce this warning on SBCL 2.0.9 when compiling Quicklisp from scratch 2020-10-07T09:02:25Z kreyren: phoe, i don't have the issue on SBCL 2.0.6.debian either 2020-10-07T09:02:29Z kreyren: seems to be specific to `clisp` 2020-10-07T09:02:39Z kreyren: GNU CLISP 2.49.92 (2018-02-18) (built on x86-ubc-01.debian.org [209.87.16.21]) 2020-10-07T09:03:45Z schweers: beach: I’m taking a glance at your closos proposal. To be precise, this sentence tripped me up: “But it also means that in order for complex data structures to be stored in the file system, they have to be transformed into a sequence of bytes.” This made me wonder if it’s not actually totally bonkers that on UNIX a tree in an application is serialised into bytes which are then represented in 2020-10-07T09:03:46Z schweers: a tree on disk. 2020-10-07T09:04:07Z kreyren is willing to provide SSH to his system assuming pubkey provided to be placed in ~/.ssh/authorized_keys 2020-10-07T09:04:22Z kreyren: (to observe the issue if needed) 2020-10-07T09:04:28Z phoe: I'd generally advise to not use CLISP since it's almost unmaintained nowadays 2020-10-07T09:04:37Z nekosagan: lisp has so many predicates 2020-10-07T09:05:00Z nekosagan: I read that in the past, there were even more 2020-10-07T09:05:01Z kreyren: phoe, any source to that so that i can mention it in the issue? 2020-10-07T09:05:24Z beach: schweers: I see what you mean. But the file system is not adapted for fine-grained storage like that. A file takes up quite a lot of space even if the contents is small. 2020-10-07T09:05:51Z schweers: I wonder if it has to be that way. 2020-10-07T09:06:05Z beach: schweers: Besides, there is still no concept of a system-wide pointer, so you would still havce to store pathnames rather than 64-bit pointers. 2020-10-07T09:06:45Z beach: schweers: That, I can't answer. Maybe not. 2020-10-07T09:06:48Z schweers: by system-wide-pointer you mean a pointer to some data on disk? 2020-10-07T09:07:05Z IPmonger_ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T09:07:07Z phoe: kreyren: https://gitlab.com/gnu-clisp/clisp 2020-10-07T09:07:09Z beach: Yes, exactly. 2020-10-07T09:07:10Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-07T09:07:38Z phoe: multiple hanging issues and MRs, no official release for a long time 2020-10-07T09:07:40Z schweers: mmap just doesn’t cut it, I guess. 2020-10-07T09:08:00Z beach: No, because you still need to decide where to put it in the address space. 2020-10-07T09:08:16Z beach: schweers: In a system such as CLOSOS, you can consider a pointer to be the address on permanent memory, and the RAM is just a cache. 2020-10-07T09:08:19Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-07T09:08:21Z phoe: and you cannot have inter-file pointers 2020-10-07T09:08:26Z mmohammadi981266 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-07T09:08:51Z beach: schweers: You are almost describing the way Multics did it. 2020-10-07T09:09:07Z schweers: beach: I am? :) 2020-10-07T09:09:34Z beach: schweers: A Multics pointer has two parts, a "segment" and an "offset", where a "segment" is like a fixed-length file. 2020-10-07T09:10:18Z schweers: Doesn’t even i386 machine code have a similar concept, which UNIX on PC never really used? 2020-10-07T09:10:26Z beach: But Multics' address space was still too small for system-wide pointers, so each process would map the segment to a process-specific table. 2020-10-07T09:10:26Z kreyren: phoe, noted, but seems that there aren't any actionable issues O.o 2020-10-07T09:10:58Z beach: schweers: Yes, Intel tried to accommodate systems like Multics, but they never did it well enough that it would have worked. 2020-10-07T09:11:09Z schweers: I see 2020-10-07T09:11:46Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-07T09:12:25Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T09:12:29Z beach: So, with Multics, in PL/I source code, you would write segment$offset where segment and offset were symbols. 2020-10-07T09:12:50Z phoe: kreyren: making a release and merging the package-local nickname MR would be two actionable issues I'd consider important 2020-10-07T09:13:14Z beach: schweers: Then, when the pointer was used, the dynamic linker kicked in and translated it to a segment number (specific to the process) and an offset determined by the symbol table of the segment. 2020-10-07T09:14:09Z beach: schweers: By default, there was no need for a separate link phase. You just compiled the source segment to an object segment, and then you could execute the object segment. 2020-10-07T09:14:14Z kreyren: phoe, true, mentioned in the issue 2020-10-07T09:14:39Z schweers: beach: that actually sounds like an interesting approach. 2020-10-07T09:14:57Z beach: It was marvelous, given the limitations at the time. 2020-10-07T09:15:39Z beach: Unix, of course, could not implement all that, and Unix is what we got stuck with. 2020-10-07T09:16:15Z decentyousername quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T09:17:38Z beach: schweers: If you wrote some code in a segment called s.pl1 containing a reference such as a$b and it turned out not to exist, when you ran s (the result of compiling "pl1 s.pl1"), the linker would trap. You could then fire up Emacs, write the a segment, compiler it and then say "continue", and the linker would patch the reference and try again. 2020-10-07T09:18:18Z beach: I am not sure that even our best Common Lisp implementations can do that. 2020-10-07T09:18:45Z schweers: What do you mean by “write the segment”? How did these segments come into existence? 2020-10-07T09:18:46Z mmohammadi981266 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T09:18:56Z phoe: beach: CL has no segments due to being memory-safe 2020-10-07T09:18:58Z beach: By emacs s.pl1 2020-10-07T09:19:13Z phoe: if there's an undefined function, you can write it, compile it, and then invoke some sort of RETRY restart that exists 2020-10-07T09:19:15Z TMA: we have still one more chance to design a better computing platform with the 64->128 bit transition that will inevitably happen when we exhaust 64-bit address space 2020-10-07T09:19:19Z beach: schweers: Similar to a file. 2020-10-07T09:19:26Z schweers: Ah, I see! 2020-10-07T09:19:34Z schweers: Now your sentence makes sence :) 2020-10-07T09:19:51Z beach: phoe: I know. I was referring to the possibility of creating a function after an error and then write that function and retry the failing call. 2020-10-07T09:20:38Z phoe: that's doable in CL 2020-10-07T09:20:53Z beach: Sure, but do we currently do that? 2020-10-07T09:20:54Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2071#2071 2020-10-07T09:21:19Z beach: schweers: Think of a segment as a fixed-size array that in permanent memory. 2020-10-07T09:21:49Z schweers: I was, I just didn’t make the connection to something like a filepath or filename. 2020-10-07T09:22:24Z beach: phoe: Yes, but then SLIME makes it harder to do that. 2020-10-07T09:22:57Z phoe: beach: that's correct, SLIME is not designed around that 2020-10-07T09:23:03Z phoe: mostly by not making the debugger REPL available 2020-10-07T09:23:10Z beach: Exactly. 2020-10-07T09:25:27Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T09:25:41Z beach: Multics PL/I had some of the features that we think of as unique to Common Lisp and some other interactive languages. As we know, the Common Lisp condition system was inspired by that of Multics PL/I. 2020-10-07T09:26:11Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2020-10-07T09:26:44Z schweers: Was it a hard requirement to use PL/I on multics? Or could other languages be used instead? 2020-10-07T09:27:13Z beach: You could use other languages, but the ABI had to be the same if you wanted to use those unique features. 2020-10-07T09:27:19Z schweers: For all it’s faults it seems to me that the UNIX model is pretty well suited to allow arbirtary languages to be used. 2020-10-07T09:27:25Z beach: Think of it like you think of C and Unix. 2020-10-07T09:27:40Z schweers: Hm, I guess 2020-10-07T09:28:01Z schweers: That does make sense. 2020-10-07T09:28:05Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T09:28:14Z beach: Multics also had a pretty good MacLisp implementation, and Emacs was written in it. 2020-10-07T09:29:24Z beach: In the past, I apparently incorrectly stated that Multics Emacs was the first Emacs written in Lisp, but I was corrected (by lispm, I think), but now I can't remember which one he claimed was the first one. 2020-10-07T09:30:42Z _death: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20373168 2020-10-07T09:31:05Z phoe: beach: https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/581 2020-10-07T09:31:06Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-07T09:31:29Z beach: _death: Thank you! 2020-10-07T09:32:28Z contrapunctus: beach: "Weinreb's EINE was the first Emacs written in Lisp.", says Wikipedia 2020-10-07T09:32:29Z beach: phoe: Nice! 2020-10-07T09:32:39Z beach: contrapunctus: Got it, thanks. 2020-10-07T09:33:37Z beach: phoe: It will be moot once we finish the IDE. :) 2020-10-07T09:34:26Z _death: the amethyst ad looks like something phoe might've done 2020-10-07T09:37:04Z phoe: _death: wait which ad 2020-10-07T09:37:42Z _death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINCE 2020-10-07T09:38:03Z phoe: oh goodness 2020-10-07T09:40:38Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-07T09:42:47Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T09:43:08Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T09:45:18Z phoe: beach: wow 2020-10-07T09:45:24Z phoe: take a look at the issue 2020-10-07T09:45:27Z phoe: we already have it in slime! 2020-10-07T09:46:02Z phoe: I don't know whether I should feel relieved or stupid now 2020-10-07T09:49:16Z phoe: this discovery is going to change my workflow 2020-10-07T09:49:49Z beach: Same here. I have never seen it in the documentation. 2020-10-07T09:49:50Z no-defun-allowed: Does the REPL evaluate in the signalling code's environment? 2020-10-07T09:50:14Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: nope 2020-10-07T09:50:45Z phoe: I mean, I don't think so 2020-10-07T09:50:46Z phoe: let me try 2020-10-07T09:51:12Z phoe: ...!!! 2020-10-07T09:51:25Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2072#2072 2020-10-07T09:51:28Z phoe: it does! 2020-10-07T09:51:46Z phoe: holy cow I feel enlightened 2020-10-07T09:51:50Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T09:52:30Z no-defun-allowed: Well, it's evaluated in the dynamic environment but not the lexical, like the SBCL debugger REPL does. But still impressive. 2020-10-07T09:52:34Z beach: I wish I had been told this ages ago. 2020-10-07T09:52:43Z contrapunctus: phoe: that issue sounds like a UI/discovery issue - should SLIME be modified to display a prompt? 2020-10-07T09:53:10Z phoe: contrapunctus: I'd vote for making it more obvious that the REPL is usable while the debugger is up 2020-10-07T09:53:33Z phoe: by whatever means available, but yes 2020-10-07T09:53:36Z contrapunctus: Would you like me to add that as a comment there? 2020-10-07T09:53:39Z _death: nice, I wasn't aware of it 2020-10-07T09:53:44Z ralt joined #lisp 2020-10-07T09:53:51Z phoe: ...seriously? is no one here aware of it or something 2020-10-07T09:53:53Z phoe: contrapunctus: yes please 2020-10-07T09:54:12Z beach: Uh, oh. Time for a lunch break before the online Lisp meeting. 2020-10-07T09:55:42Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-07T09:58:10Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-07T09:59:25Z _death: I'm not sure that it's an intentional feature 2020-10-07T09:59:32Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T09:59:40Z phoe: but it certainly is a welcome one 2020-10-07T10:00:36Z _death: well, the semantics may need to be better defined.. I think I got it to a state where the environment didn't make much sense 2020-10-07T10:01:09Z phoe: what do you mean? 2020-10-07T10:02:23Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:02:53Z _death: I need to figure out how to reproduce it 2020-10-07T10:05:41Z schweers: I also didn’t know the REPL still worked when in the debugger. Thanks! 2020-10-07T10:05:57Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:06:09Z _death: but if you (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*foo* 'value-in-thread)) (cerror "Print it" "What's *foo*?") (print *foo*)))) you can see one avenue of improvement 2020-10-07T10:06:27Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T10:06:43Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:08:15Z _death: when you type 'e' it's the correct environment.. I guess there could be a key to set up a repl in that specific environment 2020-10-07T10:08:21Z _death: like your original suggestion in the issue 2020-10-07T10:08:41Z cjv quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-07T10:09:52Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T10:11:04Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:11:17Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T10:17:05Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:17:31Z _death: the environment disappears after you invoke one of the restarts, so maybe that's why they chose to just let you evaluate something in a minibuffer instead 2020-10-07T10:19:15Z _death: I suppose it could keep track of the repl window and delete it when a restart is invoked 2020-10-07T10:19:39Z _death: *buffer 2020-10-07T10:23:48Z _death: then again, the environment may not disappear, depending on the circumstances.. slime has access to the environments, so maybe it has a way to know 2020-10-07T10:25:23Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T10:25:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:27:33Z _death: currently slime gets confused if I have the minibuffer prompt for something to eval in frame, switch to sldb and invoke the restart, then back to the minibuffer and eval something.. 2020-10-07T10:29:49Z thisisatest joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:31:47Z thisisatest left #lisp 2020-10-07T10:39:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T10:40:22Z phoe: okay, so it seems that sly actually has more support for this 2020-10-07T10:41:13Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:41:21Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:42:41Z ramHero joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:45:17Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T10:45:25Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:46:20Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:47:40Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T10:47:55Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-07T10:48:35Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T10:50:56Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:51:30Z phoe: okay, let's roll - https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp 2020-10-07T10:53:05Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-07T10:57:33Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T11:01:39Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-07T11:12:07Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-07T11:27:23Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T11:28:24Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-07T11:32:45Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T11:35:05Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-10-07T11:37:25Z Patzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-07T11:38:59Z treflip quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.6) 2020-10-07T11:40:08Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T11:40:52Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-07T11:43:26Z decentyousername joined #lisp 2020-10-07T11:44:58Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-07T11:45:05Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T11:48:49Z frot-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-10-07T11:50:23Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-07T11:50:56Z Gnuxie[m]: damn was the meeting announced on reddit? I felt like I missed the announcement 2020-10-07T11:51:17Z Patzy_ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T11:51:25Z phoe: Gnuxie[m]: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/j3461l/ 2020-10-07T11:51:33Z phoe: subscribe to the mailing list! 2020-10-07T11:52:48Z Gnuxie[m]: oh ok, this one looked really good too! no worries I know it'll be on youtube later :) 2020-10-07T11:52:56Z phoe: yes, it will 2020-10-07T11:53:06Z phoe: also you can review it on Twitch with the live chat 2020-10-07T11:53:20Z phoe: like, start from the very beginning and then keep on watching 2020-10-07T11:54:28Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-10-07T11:54:58Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T11:55:02Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T11:55:12Z schweers: Will there be a video to watch at a later time? 2020-10-07T11:55:20Z phoe: yes, as always 2020-10-07T11:55:24Z schweers: I can’t watch it right now as I’m at work 2020-10-07T11:55:34Z kreyren quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T11:56:10Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-07T11:56:55Z schweers: phoe: where can I find the video once it has been created and uploaded? 2020-10-07T11:57:08Z phoe: schweers: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgq_B39Y_kKD9_sdCeE5SufaeAtbYPv80 2020-10-07T11:57:24Z schweers: Awesome, thanks a lot! 2020-10-07T11:57:30Z phoe: <3 2020-10-07T11:57:41Z phoe: you can make a YT subscription to this channel to get notifications about future videos 2020-10-07T11:58:28Z schweers: Yep, I saw that. 2020-10-07T11:59:09Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:01:30Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:02:06Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:04:11Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:07:02Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T12:07:59Z dbotton_ quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out) 2020-10-07T12:08:19Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:08:40Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:12:59Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:13:37Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:14:07Z ljavorsk_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:14:13Z Duuqnd joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:15:39Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-07T12:16:25Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T12:18:17Z varjag: hm… so quicklisp is bundled with asdf 2.26 2020-10-07T12:18:29Z varjag thinks of least painful way upgrading to 3.x 2020-10-07T12:18:46Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:18:58Z varjag: at least that explains why it had launch-program missing 2020-10-07T12:19:29Z easye: varjag: Quicklisp usually defaults to whatever the current lisp implementation is using. 2.26 is just there for Xach to bootstrap things. 2020-10-07T12:20:39Z snits joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:21:37Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:22:19Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:22:20Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-07T12:22:33Z phoe: varjag: download the recent ASDF and load it somehow 2020-10-07T12:22:35Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:22:45Z phoe: that works well for me 2020-10-07T12:22:53Z phoe: or you can use roswell which auto-manages ASDF versions 2020-10-07T12:22:57Z Duuqnd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:24:20Z mmohammadi981266 quit (Quit: I quit (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻) 2020-10-07T12:25:40Z jackdaniel: roswell brings the power of C and the popularity of common lisp together 2020-10-07T12:26:21Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:26:31Z phoe: sure, but it works for my use case 2020-10-07T12:26:42Z phoe: (which is to install and automatically upgrade SBCL) 2020-10-07T12:26:59Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:27:14Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:27:38Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:29:50Z liberliver quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T12:30:03Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:31:31Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:32:18Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:33:06Z ebrasca: scymtym: Hi 2020-10-07T12:33:19Z scymtym: ebrasca: hi 2020-10-07T12:33:48Z Xach: Hmm, I've come around on thinking I can use non-symbols as keyword arguments 2020-10-07T12:33:53Z infra_red[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:33:54Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:33:54Z cairn quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:33:55Z fwoaroof[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:33:58Z no-defun-allowed quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:03Z Dmytro[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:05Z santiagopim[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:06Z xzax_[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:06Z even4void[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:07Z katco quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:11Z kinope quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:11Z goldrin1227[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:14Z santiagopim[m]1 quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:14Z hansbauer[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:14Z tekipeps[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:15Z xzax_[m]1 quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:15Z Xach: I thought I could, then I thought I couldn't, now I think I can again. 2020-10-07T12:34:15Z materialfuture[m quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:15Z phoe: what do you mean? 2020-10-07T12:34:15Z pcgme[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:15Z phoe: Eclector presentation from today: https://youtu.be/3Yvv2XVBi58 2020-10-07T12:34:16Z eriix[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:17Z phoe: schweers: ^ 2020-10-07T12:34:17Z kelamir[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:17Z ebrasca: scymtym: First time for streaming. 2020-10-07T12:34:18Z ThaEwat quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:18Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-07T12:34:41Z scymtym: ebrasca: i'm not sure what you are saying or asking 2020-10-07T12:35:00Z schweers: phoe: Cool, thanks! 2020-10-07T12:36:24Z Xach: phoe: http://l1sp.org/cl/3.5.1.5 suggests that &allow-other-keys makes it suppress signaling an error when i do it. but now i'm wavering - it says it's undefined in unsafe calls, and i don't know the full definitions of safe and unsafe calls. maybe i'm doing undefined unsafe calls. 2020-10-07T12:38:39Z Xach: i use non-symbols as keyword arguments when i want to build a lookup table and use the pairs-of-args enforcement of &key at compile time, e.g. (defun make-a-table (&rest keys-and-values &key &allow-other-keys) ...) 2020-10-07T12:39:00Z scymtym: schweers: maybe wait until a higher-resolution version finishes converting so you can read all the text 2020-10-07T12:39:22Z schweers: I’m not going to watch it now anyway. I suppose I’ll have time tomorrow 2020-10-07T12:39:38Z Xach: (make-a-table "name") => compile-time error about odd number of arguments 2020-10-07T12:40:52Z Xach: (make-a-table "name" "Alice") => compiles and returns a table at runtime 2020-10-07T12:41:20Z Xach: this works in three implementations i've tried, but i am too old to fall for "it works everywhere so sbcl will always allow it" trap! 2020-10-07T12:41:21Z schweers: Xach: can’t you do this with a compiler macro? 2020-10-07T12:41:31Z Xach: schweers: yes. it's more work though. 2020-10-07T12:41:38Z schweers: Yeah, I figured 2020-10-07T12:42:36Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:45:56Z snits joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:51:07Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:51:08Z pve quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:51:52Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:52:47Z ebrasca: scymtym: Can you use eclector for code deduplication? 2020-10-07T12:53:27Z scymtym: ebrasca: not eclector alone, but something based on it, sure 2020-10-07T12:54:05Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T12:54:43Z snits joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:55:50Z pve joined #lisp 2020-10-07T12:59:41Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:00:11Z varjag: phoe: yup it just worked (tm) when i did that 2020-10-07T13:01:37Z IPmonger_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T13:01:39Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:02:38Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:03:11Z zulu-inuoe_ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:03:39Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:03:59Z ebrasca quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:03:59Z EvW quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:03:59Z ralt quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:03:59Z h11 quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:03:59Z ski quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:03:59Z zaquest quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:03:59Z DGASAU quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:03:59Z rixard_ quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:03:59Z zulu-inuoe quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:04:00Z jprajzne quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:04:00Z shangul quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:04:00Z voidlily quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:04:00Z nopf quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-07T13:04:08Z ski joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:04:10Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:04:11Z ralt joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:04:22Z ebrasca` joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:04:34Z h11 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:05:18Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:06:16Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:07:48Z santiagopim[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:48Z kelamir[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:48Z no-defun-allowed joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:48Z ThaEwat joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z fwoaroof[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z hansbauer[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z pcgme[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z xzax_[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z katco joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z materialfuture[m joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z kinope joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z goldrin1227[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z Dmytro[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z even4void[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z tekipeps[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z cairn joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:49Z infra_red[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:50Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:07:55Z santiagopim[m]1 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:55Z sammich joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:07:58Z xzax_[m]1 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:08:52Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:09:12Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:09:21Z eriix[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:09:21Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:09:21Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:09:21Z rixard_ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:09:21Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:09:21Z voidlily joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:09:21Z nopf joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:09:22Z eriix[m] quit (Changing host) 2020-10-07T13:09:22Z eriix[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:10:17Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:10:41Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:10:42Z dbotton_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T13:12:08Z krid` joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:12:17Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:14:12Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:14:52Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:15:11Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:15:24Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:16:49Z toorevitimirp quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-10-07T13:20:50Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:21:50Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:23:55Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-07T13:26:15Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:26:44Z eeeeeta joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:27:05Z sm2n: is there a way to get the source code of a function or closure at runtime? 2020-10-07T13:27:19Z phoe: sm2n: FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION 2020-10-07T13:27:24Z phoe: but it is allowed to not work for whatever reason 2020-10-07T13:27:29Z snits joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:27:42Z phoe: so possibly you could get better results with the xref mechanism 2020-10-07T13:27:43Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:28:43Z TwoNotes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T13:29:08Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:30:27Z sm2n: hmm, thanks 2020-10-07T13:30:38Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:30:45Z sm2n: xref indexes the source files, right? 2020-10-07T13:30:59Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:31:00Z sm2n: so it can be out of date if a file has changed but not compiled 2020-10-07T13:31:33Z phoe: yes 2020-10-07T13:32:59Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:38:35Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:38:37Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:38:55Z eeeeeta is now known as eta 2020-10-07T13:39:30Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:43:25Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:44:08Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:45:13Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:45:26Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:48:53Z ebrasca` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T13:49:03Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:49:08Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:50:04Z beach: One reason that FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION is allowed to return NIL is so that commercial vendors would not go out of business for providing a conforming implementation of Common Lisp. 2020-10-07T13:50:12Z ex_nihilo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T13:50:15Z ex_nihilo_ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:50:16Z phoe: clhs ~$ 2020-10-07T13:50:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccd.htm 2020-10-07T13:50:23Z ex_nihilo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T13:50:35Z phoe: beach: uh actually though 2020-10-07T13:50:44Z phoe: (function-lambda-expression #'map) ;=> NIL on SBCL 2020-10-07T13:50:51Z phoe: the primary value, that is 2020-10-07T13:51:14Z beach: That doesn't contradict what I said. 2020-10-07T13:51:15Z jackdaniel: sbcl is preparing for IPO 2020-10-07T13:51:25Z jackdaniel: but that's classified ,) 2020-10-07T13:51:40Z phoe: hm 2020-10-07T13:51:56Z beach: Now, I wonder what a non-NIL return value would be for FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION when given a generic function. 2020-10-07T13:52:00Z jackdaniel: the reason behind a decision, and what people do with the decision afterwards are two different things 2020-10-07T13:53:22Z snits joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:55:07Z jprajzne quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-10-07T13:56:27Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:57:10Z schweers: Could it have to do with the fact that storing the source costs memory? 2020-10-07T13:57:25Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:57:25Z eta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T13:57:44Z beach: In the SBCL case? 2020-10-07T13:57:45Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:57:45Z treflip quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-07T13:58:02Z beach: It doesn't cost very much, but maybe that decision was made a long time ago. 2020-10-07T13:58:08Z schweers: beach: yes, but also in older lisps. I guess nowadays the cost would be negligable 2020-10-07T13:58:09Z jackdaniel: schweers: that could be controlled with space optimization flag 2020-10-07T13:58:11Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-07T13:58:17Z treflip quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-07T13:58:23Z schweers: jackdaniel: true 2020-10-07T13:58:28Z beach: But my question still stands. What if an implementation decided to make it a generic function? 2020-10-07T13:58:55Z schweers: Good question 2020-10-07T13:59:05Z schweers: A list of sources for all the methods ;) 2020-10-07T13:59:12Z jackdaniel: beach: it is hard to say, a dispatch code? 2020-10-07T14:01:49Z jackdaniel: that might be actually useful- you could see how complicated the generic function is 2020-10-07T14:05:55Z eta joined #lisp 2020-10-07T14:13:35Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T14:14:09Z nullman joined #lisp 2020-10-07T14:14:12Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-07T14:17:00Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T14:21:58Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T14:23:45Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T14:23:54Z Bike: it's also kind of nice to be able to see how it dispatches, like to help with understanding why a method you thought would be called isn't 2020-10-07T14:23:54Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 7 hours, 12 minutes ago: Would any of the coming optimizations (setjmp/longjmp) or inlining improve the following by eliminating unwinding? 2020-10-07T14:27:28Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-07T14:31:58Z flavio joined #lisp 2020-10-07T14:32:38Z ebrasca: Are reader macros apropiate for parsing magnet links? 2020-10-07T14:33:02Z phoe: what kind of syntax are you thinking of? 2020-10-07T14:33:04Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T14:33:38Z ebrasca: phoe: Here link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme 2020-10-07T14:33:46Z phoe: no no, I know what a magnet link is 2020-10-07T14:33:53Z phoe: I am asking what kind of Lisp syntax you are thinking of 2020-10-07T14:34:17Z ebrasca: Property list? 2020-10-07T14:34:18Z phoe: (and why is a raw string not acceptable?) 2020-10-07T14:34:20Z flavio quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-07T14:34:59Z phoe: I mean, #m"magnet:?xt=urn:btih:c12fe1c06bba254a9dc9f519b335aa7c1367a88a" could possibly work as a literal object 2020-10-07T14:35:37Z ebrasca: How I am going to use its arguments if it is some string? 2020-10-07T14:35:47Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T14:35:56Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T14:36:28Z ebrasca: xt field 2020-10-07T14:36:43Z phoe: I mean, the #M reader macro can parse the string passed to it and construct a literal object with populated slots 2020-10-07T14:36:49Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-07T14:37:25Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-07T14:37:39Z ebrasca: I have never write any reader macro. 2020-10-07T14:38:43Z phoe: you should! it's a good exercise 2020-10-07T14:38:57Z phoe: you could start by reading https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402 2020-10-07T14:43:39Z ebrasca: Time to learn read-time. 2020-10-07T14:47:18Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-07T14:48:26Z notzmv` is now known as notzmv 2020-10-07T14:48:37Z notzmv quit (Changing host) 2020-10-07T14:48:37Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-07T14:52:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-07T14:52:55Z Cymew quit (Ping 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2020-10-07T19:37:25Z jackdaniel: clim.flamegraph 2020-10-07T19:37:25Z Alfr_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-07T19:37:35Z Bike: won't give you a flame graph, but will break down the time. 2020-10-07T19:37:42Z Bike: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Profiling 2020-10-07T19:39:32Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2020-10-07T19:40:30Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-07T19:42:14Z alxplorer quit 2020-10-07T19:45:00Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-07T19:46:32Z jw4 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-07T19:46:55Z mfiano- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T19:48:15Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-07T19:48:50Z mfiano quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-07T19:50:03Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T19:52:49Z luis6 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T19:53:05Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T19:55:16Z aeth joined #lisp 2020-10-07T19:56:33Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T20:04:37Z krid` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T20:06:15Z 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seconds) 2020-10-07T20:43:34Z mrchampion quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T20:44:53Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2020-10-07T20:46:04Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2020-10-07T20:48:13Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-07T20:49:29Z sm2n: FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION doesn't seem to work on methods at all 2020-10-07T20:49:47Z sm2n: I do (defmethod foo ((bar float) baz) (+ bar baz)) 2020-10-07T20:50:03Z sm2n: and then (function-lambda-expression (c2mop:method-function (first (c2mop::compute-applicable-methods #'foo '(1.0 3))))) 2020-10-07T20:50:08Z sm2n: but it returns nil 2020-10-07T20:50:32Z habeangur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-07T20:51:04Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-07T20:51:24Z sm2n: that kinda sucks 2020-10-07T20:54:12Z _death: the mop gives you method-specializers and method-lambda-list 2020-10-07T20:56:32Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2020-10-07T20:56:59Z sts-q quit (Quit: ) 2020-10-07T20:58:03Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T20:58:34Z _death: if you need more, sounds like you want ibcl 2020-10-07T21:00:23Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T21:03:31Z srhm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T21:04:39Z phoe: ibcl? 2020-10-07T21:05:47Z _death: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ibcl.lisp 2020-10-07T21:06:35Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-10-07T21:07:31Z sm2n: oh interesting 2020-10-07T21:08:33Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T21:08:34Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-10-07T21:09:20Z xale joined #lisp 2020-10-07T21:11:30Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-07T21:22:49Z TwoNotes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-07T21:23:43Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-07T21:28:44Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-07T21:29:39Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T21:29:46Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-07T21:31:02Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T21:32:44Z flavio joined #lisp 2020-10-07T21:32:44Z flavio is now known as defunkydrummer 2020-10-07T21:33:34Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T21:36:46Z defunkydrummer: _death: thanks for showing what IBCL is. Pretty interesting. 2020-10-07T21:39:47Z sm2n: sbcl doesn't seem to run type inference on %METHOD-FUNCTIONs either 2020-10-07T21:43:01Z Faed is now known as Fade 2020-10-07T21:45:34Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-07T21:45:37Z Bike: what do you mean? 2020-10-07T21:50:03Z sm2n: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2073#2073 2020-10-07T21:51:14Z Bike: ah. well, it probably discards information about the method function, sure. cos it can't really be used. 2020-10-07T21:51:25Z Bike: it'll still do type inference and other optimizations in the bodies, though. 2020-10-07T21:52:11Z sm2n: ah 2020-10-07T21:53:20Z achilles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T21:53:48Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-07T21:57:12Z shaman_king joined #lisp 2020-10-07T21:57:13Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T21:57:21Z shaman_king: lisp is shit. 2020-10-07T21:57:46Z Xach: that is not very creative 2020-10-07T21:58:08Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe 2020-10-07T21:58:11Z phoe has set mode +b *!*b94186a9@185.65.134.* 2020-10-07T21:58:11Z shaman_king [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (shaman_king) 2020-10-07T21:58:14Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe 2020-10-07T21:58:19Z Bike: thank you. 2020-10-07T21:58:27Z phoe: my "pleasure" 2020-10-07T21:58:36Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-07T21:58:56Z kinope sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/jLRYohlBJRwYOsMyfrmsFxbK/message.txt > 2020-10-07T21:59:46Z White_Flame: ugh, who connected this channel to external chat systems? 2020-10-07T22:00:08Z Xach: White_Flame: it's a public network - they are just another kind of client. 2020-10-07T22:00:17Z Bike: the message itself is fine. though i don't think i'd be of any help, since i don't know what a statechart is. 2020-10-07T22:00:29Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T22:00:50Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:01:04Z _death: like a hierarchical state machine 2020-10-07T22:01:13Z White_Flame: well, it's not a client that's working well. Most IRC clients simply would make multiple chat lines out of that 2020-10-07T22:01:14Z Bike: ah. "HSM". 2020-10-07T22:01:48Z no-defun-allowed: White_Flame: "welcome to matrix dot org" 2020-10-07T22:02:23Z kinope: Sorry about the wall of text I assumed it would be broken up automatically 2020-10-07T22:03:37Z White_Flame: there are plenty of web interfaces to irc, I wonder why there's so much matrix usage now 2020-10-07T22:03:40Z kinope: yeah I'm using matrix/element web 2020-10-07T22:04:04Z logo4poop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T22:04:05Z Guest4846 quit (Quit: 👋) 2020-10-07T22:04:05Z grfn quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:04:05Z malm quit (Quit: Bye bye) 2020-10-07T22:04:08Z gum quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4+deb0+bionic0 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-07T22:04:19Z malm joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:04:22Z gum joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:04:28Z spal quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-07T22:04:31Z grfn joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:04:38Z spal joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:05:37Z contrapunctus: kinope: the only two choices I know of for multi-line message protocols bridged to IRC...autopastebin, or flood the channel. (Well, now that I think about it...one could also replace newlines with spaces - the results wouldn't be ideal, but when are they ever? 😄) 2020-10-07T22:06:05Z bocaneri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:06:05Z Papa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:06:05Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:06:05Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:06:05Z trittweiler quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:06:25Z nekosagan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:06:25Z ft quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:06:25Z mtd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:07:07Z z0d joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:07:10Z ft joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:07:12Z phadthai joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:07:24Z mtd joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:07:52Z bmansurov joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:08:16Z bmansurov is now known as Guest68156 2020-10-07T22:08:16Z logo4poop joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:08:28Z nekosagan joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:08:54Z trittweiler joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:08:55Z no-defun-allowed: contrapunctus: Matrix would flood if the message isn't _too_ long. After some point, it does link to a copy of the message. 2020-10-07T22:09:01Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:09:04Z kinope: oh I see it made my message into a link! 2020-10-07T22:09:05Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:09:38Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-10-07T22:09:42Z Papa joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:09:48Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:12:00Z kinope: May I repost JUST the relevant part of my question 2020-10-07T22:12:08Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T22:12:32Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:12:41Z aeth: If it's not code (use a pastebin for that) then the way to do long messages on any client, really, is to write it out in Emacs and then manually paste it in a line at a time. I've had to do that a few times. Even clients that auto-break instead of having one line that cuts off will just break randomly in the middle, instead of the natural breaking point. 2020-10-07T22:12:50Z aeth: Plus, it encourages you to edit it down to < 5 IRC lines. 2020-10-07T22:13:19Z kinope: ok 2020-10-07T22:13:23Z kinope: I have seen some discussion in the past on the issue of documentation, specifically creating a set of classes to capture descriptions of well-defined entities that one may expect to exist in a piece of documentation. 2020-10-07T22:13:33Z kinope: With the intention to separate the concerns of input and output formats/syntax from the content/essence of the documentation itself. 2020-10-07T22:13:56Z kinope: I have a vague idea of how I might accomplish this in my use-case, but I would like to read about how others have accomplished this, so I can make use of their experience. 2020-10-07T22:14:02Z kinope: Unfortunately I have no idea of the search terms to use to summon the information from google. I have tried search terms like "class", "object", "descriptor", "description", "serialization". 2020-10-07T22:15:15Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:15:25Z kinope: s/serialisation/deserialisation 2020-10-07T22:15:34Z White_Flame: you want a datastructure that can reasonably represent documentation in general? 2020-10-07T22:15:40Z White_Flame: or at least, an ontology? 2020-10-07T22:16:55Z White_Flame: the question unfortunately is a little vague to get concrete answers 2020-10-07T22:17:09Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T22:18:49Z kinope: Well not documentation, but state machines. 2020-10-07T22:19:42Z kinope: Im not really interested in the specific use 2020-10-07T22:20:05Z kinope: just the general method. 2020-10-07T22:20:44Z kinope: but I cant give more information unfortunately as it was something i saw here in the past 2020-10-07T22:20:57Z White_Flame: the method of design in general? 2020-10-07T22:21:09Z kinope: Just hoping someone would remember 2020-10-07T22:21:24Z sm2n: yeah I remember beach talking about it 2020-10-07T22:21:25Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:21:31Z sm2n: don't remember the details though 2020-10-07T22:21:50Z White_Flame: well, there is a link to all the irc logs in the topic, so maybe you can find something there? 2020-10-07T22:22:08Z resu joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:22:46Z kinope: I guess the design of a system that separates concrete syntax/formating from the content. 2020-10-07T22:23:11Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:23:12Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T22:23:35Z kinope: with an interface so that multiple input/output formats can be supported 2020-10-07T22:23:40Z White_Flame: is this about the concrete syntax trees in SICL maybe? 2020-10-07T22:24:26Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-07T22:24:46Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:24:48Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:24:55Z White_Flame: I mean, what you're talking about is usually ASTs or IRs in compilers, which are usually custom per implementation. Beach's CSTs contain more information but builds on them, afaik 2020-10-07T22:25:49Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:26:07Z kinope: Hmm I dont recall that being a topic in the discussion, but perhaps. I'll take a look. 2020-10-07T22:26:23Z igemnace quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:27:19Z _death: what's wrong with simple model classes like (defstruct machine name states events actions) (defstruct state name enter exit transitions children) ;; children for substates.. 2020-10-07T22:28:49Z sm2n: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1596788617#1596788617 2020-10-07T22:29:05Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:29:09Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:30:05Z kinope: sm2n: Yes! That was it 2020-10-07T22:30:05Z ineiros quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:30:24Z kinope: Much appreciated 2020-10-07T22:30:59Z sm2n: np 2020-10-07T22:31:41Z kinope: _death: That is along the lines of what I'm thinking of doing currently 2020-10-07T22:31:57Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:34:11Z _death: I wrote some state machine compiler thingy a few years ago that used that approach.. read sexps descriptions and generate C++.. defining a new output backend was a mere defmethod away.. 2020-10-07T22:39:02Z White_Flame: yeah we had a similar thing that generated Java and CL backends 2020-10-07T22:39:21Z White_Flame: but I wouldn't necessarily say that the design came from any standard model other than what the project's specifics were 2020-10-07T22:39:59Z White_Flame: the rest is ... programming? :shrug: 2020-10-07T22:40:44Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:40:50Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T22:41:55Z White_Flame: and yeah, I think beach was more talking about an ontology implemented in CLOS 2020-10-07T22:42:05Z White_Flame: but the problem with those is that they have to match exactly in order to have reuse 2020-10-07T22:43:01Z _death: White_Flame: that reminds me of https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.lang.lisp/-uoDKZeKBr4/qGgFy-M3mvoJ 2020-10-07T22:43:26Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-07T22:44:09Z White_Flame: right, but that has an implied ontology, not an explicit/shared one 2020-10-07T22:45:10Z White_Flame: the _contents_ of documentation (formatting, markup, links, etc) I think has a fairly reasonably fixable ontology, but how it links to source code concepts can be pretty vague 2020-10-07T22:45:24Z White_Flame: if the assumption is that all comments are representable in that ontology 2020-10-07T22:45:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:45:25Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2-dev) 2020-10-07T22:46:11Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:46:16Z White_Flame: and of course, state machine specifications or other declarative systems like that will have their own set of atomic concepts to link together in system-specific linkage terms 2020-10-07T22:46:21Z amb007 quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-07T22:46:35Z White_Flame: it does get into architecture astronaut territory to get much higher than that, though 2020-10-07T22:47:21Z ineiros joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:47:22Z White_Flame: (or architectio ad absurdum, to coin a phrase) 2020-10-07T22:47:54Z sjl joined #lisp 2020-10-07T22:49:18Z kinope: ok ontology looks like the term I needed. I was thinking of basing mine on the UML behavior state machine semantics. although that does leave other specifications with different semantics unable to be represented by the system. 2020-10-07T22:50:03Z kinope: I wonder if there is one that could support a diverse set of semantics 2020-10-07T22:50:28Z White_Flame: right. If you allow meta-semantics, then your diagrams/specs become sort of like an interpretive machine to describe the machine 2020-10-07T22:51:02Z White_Flame: which could be fine, but is almost impossible to reason about, and all your code might end up way more imperative 2020-10-07T22:52:01Z White_Flame: and really, "able to work with arbitrary semantics" is almost equivalent to "artifical intelligence" :-P 2020-10-07T22:53:29Z White_Flame: limiting what you support gives you much better tractability, and hopefully you can compose on what semantics you offer, instead of needing wholly new semantics in addition 2020-10-07T22:58:12Z kinope: perhaps not arbitrary, but a few well defined ones would suffice. yeah maybe one could pick a set of mutually compatible semantics to create an execution model that suits the problem. although I really have no use for that complexity. I'd be happy using a subset of UML 2020-10-07T23:00:49Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-07T23:03:41Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T23:06:13Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-07T23:08:34Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-07T23:10:00Z kinope: I have to head off, but thanks for helping me out 2020-10-07T23:16:43Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-07T23:20:47Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-07T23:27:45Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-07T23:28:38Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-07T23:35:01Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-07T23:35:27Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2020-10-07T23:36:18Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-07T23:38:01Z luis6 is now known as luis 2020-10-07T23:38:56Z luis quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2020-10-07T23:43:05Z Alfr joined #lisp 2020-10-07T23:43:34Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-07T23:46:46Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-07T23:47:43Z luis joined #lisp 2020-10-07T23:48:02Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-07T23:48:25Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-07T23:53:52Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-07T23:58:20Z renzhi joined #lisp 2020-10-08T00:00:43Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T00:05:28Z CrazyEddy quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T00:08:18Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T00:13:13Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T00:13:51Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2020-10-08T00:18:31Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T00:19:21Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T00:21:29Z axion joined #lisp 2020-10-08T00:23:23Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T00:24:13Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-08T00:34:27Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp 2020-10-08T00:34:41Z kaftejiman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T00:36:05Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T00:38:33Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T00:39:13Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-08T00:42:35Z ramHero` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T00:48:19Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T00:49:04Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-10-08T00:50:52Z axion quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-08T00:56:45Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T01:01:13Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-08T01:01:40Z ralt quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-08T01:04:33Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T01:16:55Z Gerula joined #lisp 2020-10-08T01:18:05Z Gerula_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T01:30:32Z flak joined #lisp 2020-10-08T01:30:40Z rippa quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-08T01:37:22Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-10-08T01:44:31Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T01:45:55Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-08T01:47:23Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T01:49:25Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-08T01:49:47Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T01:50:13Z kaftejiman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T01:50:39Z kaftejiman_ joined #lisp 2020-10-08T01:50:50Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T01:52:54Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-08T01:55:07Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-08T01:55:33Z kaftejiman_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T01:59:38Z kaftejiman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T02:10:37Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-10-08T02:11:05Z flak quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T02:17:42Z akoana left #lisp 2020-10-08T02:21:38Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-08T02:22:08Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2020-10-08T02:23:20Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T02:23:59Z arpunk joined #lisp 2020-10-08T02:37:02Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-08T02:38:50Z defunkydrummer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-08T02:39:48Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T02:40:13Z frot-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-08T02:40:45Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T02:40:52Z rippa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T02:41:20Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-10-08T02:42:00Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-08T02:42:17Z rippa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T02:43:51Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2020-10-08T02:44:23Z frot-lab left #lisp 2020-10-08T02:45:00Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T02:49:27Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-08T02:52:35Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T02:57:56Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-08T03:02:18Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2020-10-08T03:03:46Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-10-08T03:04:27Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T03:07:51Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T03:14:47Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-08T03:15:55Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-10-08T03:17:21Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T03:18:44Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-08T03:22:32Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-08T03:23:02Z rippa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T03:23:49Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T03:24:31Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-10-08T03:26:20Z rippa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T03:26:45Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-10-08T03:39:57Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T03:44:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-08T03:48:31Z defunkydrummer joined #lisp 2020-10-08T03:51:57Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-10-08T03:54:05Z remexre: is iterate's in-sequence O(n) per iteration on lists? 2020-10-08T03:54:54Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-08T03:54:55Z Patzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T04:04:18Z no-defun-allowed: Looking at the macroexpansion, it could be. 2020-10-08T04:04:32Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-08T04:05:01Z mmohammadi981266 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T04:05:36Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-10-08T04:05:42Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-10-08T04:06:43Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T04:09:16Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-10-08T04:09:53Z dbotton quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out) 2020-10-08T04:15:23Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-08T04:19:07Z sts-q quit (Quit: ) 2020-10-08T04:19:20Z Patzy_ joined #lisp 2020-10-08T04:19:42Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-08T04:23:52Z mmohammadi981266 quit (Quit: I quit (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻) 2020-10-08T04:28:19Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-10-08T04:29:03Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T04:33:00Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T04:33:37Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T04:35:51Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-10-08T04:37:32Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T04:37:41Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T04:47:59Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-08T04:52:19Z defunkydrummer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-08T04:57:45Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-10-08T04:58:23Z IPmonger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T04:59:02Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:04:04Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:06:32Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:08:01Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:08:12Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:09:53Z dbotton quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out) 2020-10-08T05:11:28Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-08T05:12:20Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T05:15:23Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:16:04Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T05:18:05Z uniminin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:19:52Z uniminin quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-08T05:20:11Z uniminin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:20:43Z uniminin quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-08T05:20:51Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:20:57Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:21:06Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T05:21:08Z uniminin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:27:23Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:28:16Z Duuqnd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-08T05:28:48Z uniminin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-08T05:29:00Z uniminin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:33:45Z yoeljacobsen joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:33:46Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:33:52Z yoja joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:34:03Z yoja quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T05:43:42Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T05:45:26Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:47:48Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T05:48:10Z colluphid joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:48:22Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T05:48:47Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:49:10Z Qudit314159 left #lisp 2020-10-08T05:50:03Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T05:52:26Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:53:33Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T05:53:38Z davepdot_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T05:56:12Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-08T05:59:47Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T06:00:29Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-08T06:00:30Z saganman: what does a defun return? the last evaluated expression? 2020-10-08T06:00:53Z uniminin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-08T06:03:29Z Lycurgus: it's a special form, doesn't "return" anything 2020-10-08T06:03:43Z beach: There is not such thing as "a defun". A function returns the values of the last form in the body. 2020-10-08T06:03:59Z beach: A DEFUN form returns the name of the function being defined. 2020-10-08T06:04:02Z no-defun-allowed: A defun form returns the function name :) 2020-10-08T06:04:19Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-08T06:05:35Z saganman: beach, I suspected that. 2020-10-08T06:06:29Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T06:07:40Z beach: Which part? 2020-10-08T06:07:54Z Lycurgus: the name 2020-10-08T06:09:27Z Lycurgus: no-defun-allowed, whence ur nick? 2020-10-08T06:09:44Z saganman: beach, the last form 2020-10-08T06:10:08Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-08T06:12:04Z beach: saganman: Notice that, because you said "a defun" both Lycurgus and no-defun-allowed misunderstood. 2020-10-08T06:12:32Z beach: It is very important to try to use the right terminology. 2020-10-08T06:12:32Z saganman: beach, I was writing tail recursive functions yesterday where I wrote fibonaci function using different lisp elements, cond, case, if, while. After that I wrote skip first n elements which part of execise in book, where the last form is nil list 2020-10-08T06:12:43Z saganman: ah yes beach 2020-10-08T06:15:00Z saganman: I should have said function 2020-10-08T06:15:04Z saganman: not defun 2020-10-08T06:15:17Z beach: Lycurgus: Please be careful with your answers. DEFUN is a macro and not a special operator (or special form), and I know of no special form that returns no values. 2020-10-08T06:15:35Z Lycurgus: beach, acknowledged 2020-10-08T06:17:51Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T06:21:08Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T06:21:38Z saganman: A defun form returns the function name << haha, spot on 2020-10-08T06:21:58Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-10-08T06:22:25Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T06:25:24Z no-defun-allowed: Lycurgus: I don't know where no-defun-allowed came from. 2020-10-08T06:25:27Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T06:25:51Z Lycurgus: no-defun-allowed, acknowledged 2020-10-08T06:28:10Z dbotton quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T06:30:40Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-08T06:30:46Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T06:30:47Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-08T06:35:29Z ThaEwat quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:29Z even4void[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:29Z infra_red[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:36Z tekipeps[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:38Z no-defun-allowed quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:40Z goldrin1227[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:40Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:42Z santiagopim[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:43Z fwoaroof[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:43Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:46Z cairn quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:46Z Dmytro[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:50Z xzax_[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:50Z katco quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:50Z hansbauer[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:52Z sammich quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:53Z kelamir[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:54Z materialfuture[m quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:55Z xzax_[m]1 quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:56Z santiagopim[m]1 quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:56Z pcgme[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:57Z kinope quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:57Z eriix[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-08T06:35:58Z tsrt^ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-08T06:37:50Z tsrt^ joined #lisp 2020-10-08T06:38:16Z sts-q quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-08T06:43:44Z kelamir[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-08T06:46:30Z aeth: Everything returns something except for (VALUES) or something user-defined that returns (VALUES) but most of the time (except when using MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL or MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST) that will just implicitly create a NIL value because most uses of multiple values implicitly turns the missing nth value into NIL when the nth value is requested (including the 1st value!). 2020-10-08T06:46:43Z mmohammadi981266 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T06:47:05Z ljavorsk_ joined #lisp 2020-10-08T06:50:58Z flip214: aeth: (defun foo () '(values)) returns (VALUES) ;) 2020-10-08T06:53:03Z aeth: flip214: Sorry, I mean #.(VALUES) which is then expressed as (defun foo () (values)) 2020-10-08T06:53:17Z aeth: I guess I need to use read-eval via #. in order to evalue an expression when I'm actually talking about the result 2020-10-08T06:55:01Z flip214: "something user-defined that runs (VALUES) as last form"? 2020-10-08T06:55:22Z flip214: evaluating at read time won't help with the runtime-returnvalue 2020-10-08T06:56:14Z aeth: flip214: I'm talking about the IRC read time :-) 2020-10-08T06:56:47Z aeth: but to be more serious, #.(values) is probably just going to get you NIL because it's really hard to avoid turning (values) into NIL (and you probably just want NIL when the return value isn't important, anyway) 2020-10-08T06:57:18Z aeth: heh, actually, it doesn't get you NIL 2020-10-08T06:57:25Z aeth: (list #.(values) 1) => (1) 2020-10-08T06:57:35Z aeth: in SBCL 2020-10-08T06:57:42Z aeth: in ECL, though (list #.(values) 1) => (NIL 1) 2020-10-08T06:57:42Z flip214: well, you can always add another value telling whether the previous value was important... see GETHASH 2020-10-08T06:57:46Z Lycurgus stands corrected. 2020-10-08T06:57:52Z aeth: hmm, I wonder... 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ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-08T07:53:31Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T07:54:18Z motersen joined #lisp 2020-10-08T07:54:20Z TMA: aeth: (list #.(values 1 2) 3) => (1 3) ; no values are interpreted as nil where a single value is expected. like (if (values) 1 2) => 2 ; when #. interprets two values as one, it shall do the same for zero values 2020-10-08T07:54:35Z TMA: flip214: I am in favor of (NIL 1) 2020-10-08T07:54:35Z Kaisyu7 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-10-08T07:55:44Z cjv joined #lisp 2020-10-08T07:56:07Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T07:57:22Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T07:59:05Z flip214: TMA: that means that a reader macro MUST include a value into the source, even if it's "just" a NIL. 2020-10-08T08:00:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-08T08:00:39Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-08T08:00:54Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-08T08:01:24Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-08T08:01:34Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-08T08:04:18Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-08T08:04:25Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2020-10-08T08:05:50Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T08:06:49Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-08T08:07:30Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T08:07:54Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T08:07:56Z cjv quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-08T08:08:36Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T08:09:07Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-08T08:09:36Z TMA: flip214: not all reader macros MUST do that (#+ and #- don't) but #. looks to me like it MUST, indeed 2020-10-08T08:10:43Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T08:25:30Z ramHero joined #lisp 2020-10-08T08:32:31Z flip214: TMA: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm#set-macro-character 2020-10-08T08:32:42Z flip214: uses (values) in an example explicitly (comment reader) 2020-10-08T08:37:51Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-08T08:39:44Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-10-08T08:41:52Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-10-08T08:48:09Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:03:08Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:03:27Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:04:41Z sammich left #lisp 2020-10-08T09:06:26Z TMA: flip214: (defun hash-dot-reader (stream char) (declare (ignore char)) (cond (*read-eval* (eval (read stream t nil t))))) ; this is a valid #. reader function in my opinion 2020-10-08T09:08:01Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-08T09:08:47Z TMA: #.foo is read as the object resulting from the evaluation of the object represented by foo. 2020-10-08T09:10:50Z flip214: TMA: but you can't ignore comments if you _always_ insert a value. 2020-10-08T09:12:49Z TMA: flip214: I am not arguing for always inserting a value in general case. comments do never insert a value, #- and #+ do not always do so 2020-10-08T09:13:10Z TMA: flip214: I am arguing that #. as specified always does 2020-10-08T09:13:38Z resu quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T09:17:06Z TMA: in a sense "the object resulting from the evaluation of (values)" is the set of no values 2020-10-08T09:18:27Z TMA: I am arguing that (list '#.(values) 1) shall evaluate to the same as (list (eval '(values)) 1) 2020-10-08T09:19:13Z TMA: and as 'nil evaluates to the same value as nil, namely nil, so shall (list #.(values) 1) 2020-10-08T09:21:12Z TMA: I do have an error in the function I have written before. it shall look thus: 2020-10-08T09:22:29Z TMA: (defun hash-dot-reader (stream char) (declare (ignore char)) (cond (*read-eval* (let ((v (eval (read stream t nil t)))) v))) 2020-10-08T09:24:51Z TMA: or more succintly: (defun hash-dot-reader (stream char) (declare (ignore char)) (cond (*read-eval* (prog1 (eval (read stream t nil t)))))) 2020-10-08T09:24:52Z aartaka_d quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T09:25:25Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-08T09:25:54Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T09:26:29Z kagevf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T09:26:41Z kagevf joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:28:44Z drmeister joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:31:11Z h112 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:31:17Z h11 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T09:31:17Z h112 is now known as h11 2020-10-08T09:32:05Z kreyren_ joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:32:06Z kreyren_: Requesting peer-review for the information provided https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47 2020-10-08T09:38:45Z phoe: the Qicklisp logo has a typo 2020-10-08T09:40:58Z treflip` joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:42:22Z treflip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-08T09:44:06Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:44:08Z kreyren_: phoe, where? 2020-10-08T09:44:12Z phantomics: clisp is not "Common Lisp," it is a dialect of Common Lisp 2020-10-08T09:44:22Z phantomics: Qicklisp 2020-10-08T09:44:27Z phoe: kreyren_: the very top of the post 2020-10-08T09:44:29Z phoe: see the image 2020-10-08T09:44:57Z kreyren_: ah 2020-10-08T09:44:59Z phoe: also CLISP is the name of the implementation - it is written in C, hence CLISP 2020-10-08T09:45:00Z phantomics: Also, defun and defmacro are not "hard-coded functions," they are macros 2020-10-08T09:45:13Z phoe: also, you mix up multiple dialects 2020-10-08T09:45:24Z phantomics: By hard-coded functions, I think you're referring to the special forms, the handful of hardcoded things that are the basis for the language 2020-10-08T09:45:28Z phoe: CLISP, ECL, SBCL are all implementations of Common Lisp; Racket, Elisp, Rlisp are all different dialects 2020-10-08T09:45:47Z phantomics: (if) and (quote) are special forms, (defun) and (defmacro) are not 2020-10-08T09:45:50Z phoe: Quicklisp is only for Common Lisp impementations 2020-10-08T09:46:09Z no-defun-allowed left #lisp 2020-10-08T09:46:29Z phantomics: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm 2020-10-08T09:46:35Z phantomics: This is a list of the Common Lisp special forms 2020-10-08T09:46:42Z phoe: there's a lot of stuff mixed up in there 2020-10-08T09:48:05Z beach: s/lisp/Lisp/ s/quicklisp/Quicklisp/ 2020-10-08T09:48:13Z kreyren_: phoe, fixed the logo 2020-10-08T09:48:17Z beach: Lots of lacking articles. 2020-10-08T09:48:25Z eta quit (Quit: we're here, we're queer, connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T09:48:39Z beach: kreyren_: The logo has a lower-case L. 2020-10-08T09:48:43Z eta joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:48:50Z beach: ... should have, I mean. 2020-10-08T09:48:55Z user51 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T09:49:01Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:49:23Z beach: kreyren_: Lots of lacking articles. Is your native language Polish or something similar? 2020-10-08T09:49:23Z kreyren_: phantomics, added note about it being dialect 2020-10-08T09:49:42Z phoe: > Common Lisp (clisp) - This is a dialect of common lisp 2020-10-08T09:49:48Z phoe: ummmm 2020-10-08T09:49:52Z beach: Current cargo-make version -> The current cargo-make version 2020-10-08T09:50:03Z beach: Ability to use -> The ability to use 2020-10-08T09:50:05Z phoe: okay, maybe let's start from the top - which Lisp dialects do you want to support? 2020-10-08T09:50:19Z no-defun-allowed joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:50:31Z beach: arguable better alternative -> arguably a better alternative 2020-10-08T09:50:32Z kreyren_: phoe, updated the note about CLISP 2020-10-08T09:50:33Z phantomics: Do you want to support all dialects that Quicklisp works with? 2020-10-08T09:50:51Z beach: requires following entry -> requires the following entry 2020-10-08T09:51:04Z beach: common lisp -> Common Lisp. 2020-10-08T09:51:17Z kreyren_: phantomics, changed from function to functions/macros 2020-10-08T09:51:52Z phoe: because if you want to support Quicklisp then you'll want to remove everything that is not CL 2020-10-08T09:51:54Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T09:52:00Z phoe: so, Racket, elisp, rlisp, and the etc.. 2020-10-08T09:52:05Z phantomics: expecting to allow for-> expected to allow for 2020-10-08T09:52:16Z phoe: Quicklisp only works with Common Lisp, so: SBCL, CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL, CLISP, ACL, LW 2020-10-08T09:52:28Z phoe: that's all the complete contemporary Common Lisp implementations 2020-10-08T09:52:31Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:52:37Z beach: read and maintain as it -> read and maintain, as it 2020-10-08T09:53:06Z v3625 quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.2+deb3 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-08T09:53:15Z v3625_ joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:53:41Z phantomics: kreyren, changing from function to functions/macros is still not accurate, as many of those in your list are not "hardcoded" 2020-10-08T09:53:58Z phantomics: The list of Common Lisp's hardcoded special forms is at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm 2020-10-08T09:54:29Z phantomics: Special forms are neither functions nor macros 2020-10-08T09:55:12Z kreyren_: beach, about the logo i left it with upper-case L because i think it looks better :p 2020-10-08T09:55:21Z kreyren_: beach, elaborate lacking articles? 2020-10-08T09:55:55Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-10-08T09:56:17Z kreyren_: attempted to fix 'The' 2020-10-08T09:56:56Z kreyren_: phoe, > maybe let's start from the top - which Lisp dialects do you want to support? < -- Ideally i want it to run as many dialects and implementations as possible 2020-10-08T09:57:05Z phantomics: version 0.32.6 requires following entry -> version 0.32.6 requires the following entry 2020-10-08T09:57:23Z yoja quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T09:57:24Z phoe: kreyren_: forgive the blunt question, do you know basics of Common Lisp? 2020-10-08T09:57:45Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T09:57:56Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-08T09:58:03Z phantomics: Quicklisp is easy to install and works with ABCL, Allegro CL, Clasp, Clozure CL, CLISP, CMUCL, ECL, LispWorks, MKCL, SBCL, and Scieneer CL, on Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows. 2020-10-08T09:58:30Z phoe: since the issue confuses lots of stuff that are Lisp and CL basics in general 2020-10-08T09:58:35Z phantomics: That's from the Quicklisp site naming the Lisp implementations that Quicklisp works with 2020-10-08T09:58:39Z beach: kreyren_: "a", 'the" are articles. 2020-10-08T09:58:40Z kreyren_: phoe, > Quicklisp only works with Common Lisp, so: SBCL, CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL, CLISP, ACL, LW < -- added them on the list 2020-10-08T09:59:55Z kapil_ joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:00:14Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:00:15Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T10:00:15Z kreyren_: phoe, i am confident in basics of Common lisp, but it seems that quicklisp may allow for compatibility above common lisp dialects? 2020-10-08T10:00:39Z beach: kreyren_: There is no such thing as "Common Lisp dialects". 2020-10-08T10:00:57Z no-defun-allowed: phoe: I recall this exercise being about running code on systems with Common Lisp implementations that can run Rust code but don't have a POSIX shell. Computer history isn't really basic Common Lisp, but it would be useful right now. 2020-10-08T10:01:38Z phoe: kreyren_: I kinda wonder why you confuse CL with other Lisp dialects then 2020-10-08T10:01:39Z kreyren_: beach, sorry meant implementation 2020-10-08T10:01:55Z phoe: rustlisp isn't CL, neither is elisp or racket; quicklisp doesn't run on them 2020-10-08T10:02:27Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, rustlang doesn't work on some systems that common lisp does that's true, but rust has a handling of platform compatibility that allows anyone to implement it on their system in theory 2020-10-08T10:02:46Z kreyren_: phoe, cargo-make is only providing the logic to run common lisp 2020-10-08T10:03:04Z kreyren_: worst case scenario i want to make a lisp wrapper that translates the toml file in common lisp 2020-10-08T10:03:12Z phoe: oh, perfect 2020-10-08T10:03:26Z phoe: then everything that isn't CL should go out of this issue 2020-10-08T10:03:35Z kreyren_: phoe, edit: cargo-make can interpret common lisp assuming rust-lisp in a working state 2020-10-08T10:03:43Z kreyren_: i.e what's it's currently doing with duckscript 2020-10-08T10:03:57Z no-defun-allowed: r-l is nowhere near running Common Lisp code. 2020-10-08T10:04:04Z kreyren_: phoe, so i can't use quicklisp for dialects of common lisp? i.e. elisp? 2020-10-08T10:04:13Z phoe: elisp is NOT a dialect of common lisp 2020-10-08T10:04:18Z no-defun-allowed: And if porting Rust isn't out of the question, why not Lisp--oh good God. 2020-10-08T10:04:23Z phoe: elisp is a dialect of lisp 2020-10-08T10:04:29Z phoe: common lisp is a dialect of lisp 2020-10-08T10:04:30Z kreyren_: phoe, dialect of lisp then! 2020-10-08T10:04:35Z phoe: where lisp is a family of languages 2020-10-08T10:04:36Z aeth: Quicklisp depends on ASDF, which heavily uses CLOS. 2020-10-08T10:04:45Z kreyren_: where the current blocker for elisp running quicklisp seems to be: Symbol’s function definition is void: defpackage 2020-10-08T10:04:50Z aeth: Heavy CLOS code would be a nightmare to port to other Lisp dialects. 2020-10-08T10:04:51Z no-defun-allowed: You cannot run Common Lisp code on rust-lisp or Emacs. 2020-10-08T10:04:52Z phoe: no, it is not 2020-10-08T10:05:00Z kreyren_: aeth, ah i see updating 2020-10-08T10:05:10Z phoe: the blocker for elisp running quicklisp is the fact that quicklisp is written in Common Lisp, not Emacs Lisp 2020-10-08T10:05:33Z phoe: like, have ever tried compiling Rust code with G++? 2020-10-08T10:05:49Z sm2n: rust is a one-implementation language, and is very dependency intensive, porting CL would be way easier... 2020-10-08T10:06:24Z no-defun-allowed: And I still don't know what machines you target that don't have a POSIX shell, but can run some Common Lisp implementation. 2020-10-08T10:06:51Z kreyren_: sm2n, my codebase is in rustlang and i am using commonlisp for a repository management 2020-10-08T10:07:01Z sm2n: but why 2020-10-08T10:07:56Z kreyren_: sm2n, because common lisp is more functional compared to shell allowing me for a better implementation 2020-10-08T10:08:23Z kreyren_: while not preventing platform compatibility if anyone decides to use non-standard system, legacy, etc.. 2020-10-08T10:08:37Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-08T10:08:43Z sm2n: anyway, someone posted the name of the approach sbcl uses for type-inference the other day, but I lost it, could someone give me a reference? 2020-10-08T10:08:48Z kreyren_: alike i have a single board computer that has custom kernel with lisp that is not practical to use posix shell 2020-10-08T10:08:48Z no-defun-allowed: What legacy systems do you know of that run Common Lisp and your code? 2020-10-08T10:09:25Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, current target is VAX which i am still researching where the ideology is to work on as many systems as possible without being limited by the technology itself 2020-10-08T10:09:33Z no-defun-allowed: That makes no sense, porting a shell is probably easier than porting Lisp. 2020-10-08T10:09:41Z aeth: Emacs Lisp is close enough to Common Lisp where you get the mistaken impression that it will run your Common Lisp code and that your Common Lisp knowledge will transfer. There are quite a few incompatibility landmines hidden there, though. 2020-10-08T10:09:43Z kreyren_: was thinking that worst case scenario i can make a hardware that can be added to the VAX 2020-10-08T10:09:45Z aeth: Scheme is pretty close to Common Lisp, but renames almost everything, which helps avoid this pitfall and makes it clearer that they're separate languages. 2020-10-08T10:10:15Z aeth: (And Racket is basically Scheme where your set-car! and set-cdr! won't work.) 2020-10-08T10:10:22Z kreyren_: aeth, noted 2020-10-08T10:10:52Z kreyren_: going to update the issue 2020-10-08T10:13:03Z kreyren_: How should i rephrase https://dpaste.com/3KVUDLNGF.txt ? So to make it understandable what is quicklisp doing on the backend to use these to redefine the functions in implementation-independant code? 2020-10-08T10:13:25Z phoe: I'd remove all of this altogether and link to the Common Lisp specification 2020-10-08T10:13:52Z phoe: seriously, all of this has already been done at http://clhs.lisp.se/ 2020-10-08T10:14:02Z kreyren_: phoe, seems sane to me adapted 2020-10-08T10:14:06Z no-defun-allowed: Is it even necessary to mention how to write the language if you're requesting code to kick up a Lisp process? 2020-10-08T10:14:19Z phoe: why do you want to adapt this? 2020-10-08T10:14:28Z phoe: CL is already well-defined, and if you want to write CL, then you use the CL specification 2020-10-08T10:16:06Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, yes as i am expecting the logic to create a temporary file with the `script` content, find the supported executables and apply the flags to allow it to run that way 2020-10-08T10:16:47Z kreyren_: which also needs to prepend the codeblock that loads quicklisp 2020-10-08T10:17:01Z phoe: I'd leave the part of describing what Common Lisp works like to someone who already knows Common Lisp - it's evident to me that you don't if this paste looks good to you but still contains the DEFINE keyword that does not exist in Common Lisp, and where you list unquote below quote, not below quasiquote 2020-10-08T10:17:01Z kreyren_: which is implementation-dependent 2020-10-08T10:17:02Z rtypo joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:17:13Z phoe: or 2020-10-08T10:17:15Z phoe: I'd avoid that part altogether 2020-10-08T10:17:38Z phoe: also, the part that loads quicklisp should be (load #p"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") - this one is implementation-independent I think 2020-10-08T10:17:55Z no-defun-allowed: No, the code that loads Quicklisp isn't implementation dependent. Starting a Lisp process and getting it to load a file is implementation-dependent, but it's not done in Lisp. 2020-10-08T10:17:55Z phoe: all the implementation conditionals are stored inside QL logic 2020-10-08T10:17:56Z kreyren_: phoe, true i don't know how common lisp works on the backend was taking that from rlisp readme 2020-10-08T10:17:59Z jmercouris: thanks for the link Bike 2020-10-08T10:18:24Z phoe: kreyren_: that's why I'd suggest skipping this part altogether 2020-10-08T10:18:29Z aeth: kreyren_: the readme of that language says that it was inspired by both CL and Scheme 2020-10-08T10:18:33Z kreyren_: phoe, checking.. note that it also can't output anything else but the logic provided 2020-10-08T10:18:39Z no-defun-allowed: Furthermore, the "hard-coded logic" you provided doesn't describe how the loading code works at all. None of it is used in your prelude code. 2020-10-08T10:19:07Z phoe: let CL work the way it works; if I understood you correctly, you are trying to provide an adapter in Rust code that allows one to run some Common Lisp implementation and load Quicklisp in it and then do something 2020-10-08T10:19:48Z aeth: kreyren_: Lisp has "dialects" (including CL, Emacs Lisp, and Scheme). Scheme itself sort of has "dialects" (including Racket). Common Lisp is a unified language that follows one specification and only has "implementations". 2020-10-08T10:20:03Z kreyren_: phoe, the `(load #p"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp")` seems to work on ECL, CLISP and SBCL on my end 2020-10-08T10:20:08Z aeth: The distinction being that writing portable Common Lisp is possible, writing portable Scheme is hard, and writing portable "Lisp" in the general sense is very, very hard. 2020-10-08T10:20:12Z jackdaniel: what are we discussing again? 2020-10-08T10:20:38Z aeth: jackdaniel: this, I think. https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47 2020-10-08T10:21:10Z jackdaniel: thanks 2020-10-08T10:21:34Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:21:40Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, anything relevant appreciated i want to use it to implement quicklisp runner in cargo-make and possibly rlisp 2020-10-08T10:21:55Z kreyren_: so that cargo-make would be able to interpret common lisp code 2020-10-08T10:21:56Z jackdaniel: I don't know what is cargo-make, even less what is rlisp 2020-10-08T10:22:16Z aeth: kreyren_: Most Lisps don't follow any specification, are very minimalist (even more so than Scheme, which has some hard features like call/cc), and usually wind up with the label "toy Lisp". rlisp appears to be one of these. 2020-10-08T10:22:20Z no-defun-allowed: rlisp isn't a Common Lisp implementation, so it couldn't load Quicklisp, or do anything particuarly useful with it. 2020-10-08T10:22:22Z jackdaniel: common lisp code is usually executed after (at least minimal) compilation 2020-10-08T10:22:23Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, cargo-make is arguably a better alternative to `make` reading `Makefile` 2020-10-08T10:22:24Z sm2n: I found the paper I was looking for: https://web.archive.org/web/20200426054415/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/TInference.html 2020-10-08T10:23:21Z no-defun-allowed: One does not use Makefiles with Lisp, so it's a bit like designing a better tennis racket for a basketball player. 2020-10-08T10:23:30Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, ah you are right that's implementing lisp only.. that still would make it helpful though 2020-10-08T10:23:44Z yoja joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:24:01Z aeth: Every living CL except CLISP is primarily compiled instead of interpreted, and even CLISP is bytecode-compiled first. 2020-10-08T10:24:05Z jackdaniel: if you want to use common lisp with quicklisp, then put the usual steps of installing and loading it in your cargo make; as of running common lisp programs with "rlisp", it is as futile as compiling c++ code with c compiler 2020-10-08T10:24:06Z kreyren_: sm2n, thanks! reference added 2020-10-08T10:24:19Z jackdaniel: at some corner cases doable, however not very good use of ones time 2020-10-08T10:24:29Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, i can use common lisp in makefiles though 2020-10-08T10:24:47Z kreyren_: http://ix.io/2A4D 2020-10-08T10:24:50Z aeth: jackdaniel: and most importantly, ASDF (a dependency of Quicklisp) is not one of those corner cases. It is full of CLOS usage. 2020-10-08T10:24:59Z phantomics: The idea is to implement a system build utility that can build CL systems as part of a larger software system, is that right? 2020-10-08T10:25:16Z aeth: Object systems are one of the main incompatibilities between Lisps, even if you go out of your way to write portability layers. 2020-10-08T10:25:22Z jackdaniel: that has been already implemented in bazel, you may take hints there 2020-10-08T10:25:36Z kreyren_: phantomics, not system build utility this is for a software project management 2020-10-08T10:25:45Z kreyren_: so it may include CI/CD as well 2020-10-08T10:26:17Z jackdaniel: as fun as this discussion is, I can't help but note, that while not literally offtopic, it definetely smells like offtopic ,) see you later 2020-10-08T10:26:23Z no-defun-allowed: It would not, as there is significantly more in a Common Lisp implementation than pure Lisp. Another corny analogy: stacking another bucket of sand on your sandcastle to make a skyscraper is just as helpful. 2020-10-08T10:26:27Z kreyren_: aeth, which would be a concern if they support rustlang? 2020-10-08T10:26:48Z kreyren_: assuming that cargo-make would be able to interpret lisp/common-lisp 2020-10-08T10:26:58Z treflip` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.3)) 2020-10-08T10:27:23Z sm2n: kreyren_, wut 2020-10-08T10:27:25Z aeth: kreyren_: I'm not sure what you mean by support... you'd probably CFFI into it using an exported C API. 2020-10-08T10:27:31Z RedMallet joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:27:40Z sm2n: whatever, I am done with this discussion 2020-10-08T10:27:50Z aeth: kreyren_: By "interpret" do you mean "run scripts"? The scripts themselves are probably compiled. 2020-10-08T10:28:07Z kreyren_: aeth, > Object systems are one of the main incompatibilities between Lisps, even if you go out of your way to write portability layers. < -- if they support rustlang and not *lisp then that would allow running lisp on these systems afaik 2020-10-08T10:28:11Z varjag joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:28:25Z kreyren_ not sure what you mean by object systems though, my first though was golang 2020-10-08T10:28:35Z jackdaniel: this does not make sense and is definetely offtopic 2020-10-08T10:28:38Z no-defun-allowed: What? Now Go is involved? 2020-10-08T10:28:48Z jackdaniel: kreyren_: I think that this topic better suits the #lispcafe channel 2020-10-08T10:28:54Z drl joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:28:58Z jackdaniel: or, eventually, ##lisp 2020-10-08T10:28:58Z no-defun-allowed: No, please do not take it to #lispcafe 2020-10-08T10:29:19Z kreyren_: aeth, looking at rust-lisp i think that could allow it to be compiled on demand 2020-10-08T10:29:24Z aeth: kreyren_: I mean, how it does OOP (or the lack of OOP) is going to be the main incompatibility with random-cl-inspired-lisp and common-lisp... just like it's the main incompatibility between Schemes. 2020-10-08T10:29:36Z jackdaniel: either way it is offtopic here -- this is a channel dedicated to common lisp, so please move it elsewhere 2020-10-08T10:30:04Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, the main concern is quicklisp on common lisp atm 2020-10-08T10:30:19Z kreyren_: aeth, i am in ##lisp for that if you want 2020-10-08T10:30:44Z jackdaniel: loading quicklisp with common lisp is documented at quicklisp.org, the rest is a matter of calling cl-implementation --load "file-with-source-code.lisp" 2020-10-08T10:30:46Z Xach: quicklisp is a common lisp program. other lisps are not common lisp and are not compatible. 2020-10-08T10:31:11Z Xach: other lisps could be made compatible. it's a lot of work. nobody has done it. common lisp has a lot of features and quicklisp uses a lot of them. 2020-10-08T10:31:13Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, cargo-make is creating a temporary files so those need more arguments usually 2020-10-08T10:31:23Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, but rlisp is NOT a Common Lisp implementation, and making it run Common Lisp code is not much easier than just writing a Common Lisp implementation from scratch. 2020-10-08T10:31:27Z aeth: "Lisp" is just syntax. Some Lisps have about as much in common as JavaScript and C++ in the {} languages. I wouldn't expect a library to be able to run in C, C++, D, Java, C#, JavaScript, and everything else at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages_by_type#Curly-bracket_languages 2020-10-08T10:31:47Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T10:31:51Z Xach: also, quicklisp uses extra-standard functionality that would also need implementation - networking and filesystem work mostly. 2020-10-08T10:31:55Z aeth: (I mean, some code probably does, but it's an impressive polygot program if it does) 2020-10-08T10:31:58Z Xach: (that's not too hard) 2020-10-08T10:32:01Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T10:32:10Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:32:23Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, noted i though that rlisp is common-lisp my bad! 2020-10-08T10:32:30Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:33:25Z kreyren_: Xach, is common lisp implemented by design to possibly support non-common lisp or would that need lots of rewriting? 2020-10-08T10:33:56Z aeth: kreyren_: Writing a Common Lisp in Rust is possible, but not easy. There's an effort to write a C++/LLVM Common Lisp called Clasp but it's taking a long time. 2020-10-08T10:34:14Z kreyren_: aeth, noted 2020-10-08T10:34:38Z kreyren_: Xach, sorry meant to say is `quicklisp implemented by design` 2020-10-08T10:34:42Z aeth: Supporting non-CL dialect of Lisp in CL is generally done by writing an implementation of that non-CL dialect of Lisp inside of CL because those dialects are almost always much smaller than CL. 2020-10-08T10:34:54Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-08T10:34:54Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-10-08T10:35:14Z kreyren_: i see 2020-10-08T10:35:34Z Xach: kreyren_: it is implemented by design to take full advantage of Common Lisp and I think trying to make it work elsewhere would be difficult and not very rewarding - since it is meant to allow you to run other common lisp programs, which also are not portable to other lisps. 2020-10-08T10:35:43Z Xach: "Lisp" isn't generic - there are only specifics 2020-10-08T10:35:43Z aeth: Supporting CL features in non-CL Lisps is a much harder route because you'd basically have to implement CL in those languages and it's easier to implement small-in-large than large-in-small. 2020-10-08T10:36:00Z aeth: (Especially since CL will demand some low-level features so you might have to modify the small language's implementation!) 2020-10-08T10:36:19Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren_: Bear in mind that Quicklisp is used to load other Common Lisp code. You may get Quicklisp ported, but for what if you can't run any of the code you use it to download? 2020-10-08T10:36:45Z Xach: I think the ideas of quicklisp are pretty portable, even if the code itself is not especially 2020-10-08T10:36:49Z aeth: Emacs Lisp is the only one that has done what I just described, but (1) it already started out as the closest major Lisp to CL and (2) in decades of doing so, it only has some of CL. 2020-10-08T10:38:26Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:38:44Z kreyren_: Xach, can i quote you in https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47 ? 2020-10-08T10:39:13Z Xach: sure 2020-10-08T10:40:12Z Xach: that page has a lot of errors 2020-10-08T10:41:44Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T10:42:34Z RedMallet is now known as treflip 2020-10-08T10:42:47Z kreyren_: Xach, typo will be checked prior to filing to upstream, trying to fix information errors as much as possible atm 2020-10-08T10:42:57Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:43:37Z phoe: "Dialect of Common lisp" → "Implementation of Common Lisp" 2020-10-08T10:43:47Z phoe: Science CL does not exist 2020-10-08T10:43:53Z phoe: rlisp is not an implementation of Common Lisp 2020-10-08T10:44:10Z Xach: "LW" and "LispWorks" refer to the same thing 2020-10-08T10:44:19Z phoe: "possibly more.." does not need to be there - I think you've listed all relevant working implementations, maybe except for SICL which is a work-in-progress 2020-10-08T10:44:20Z Xach: "CCL" and "Clozure CL" also, probably 2020-10-08T10:44:30Z phoe: yes, CCL == Clozure CL 2020-10-08T10:44:56Z phoe: Quicklisp is not one file; the quicklisp.lisp file just downloads everything else from the Internet 2020-10-08T10:45:06Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T10:45:30Z phoe: "to allow for an implementation-independant code" - that's not the goal of Quicklisp AFAIK, the goal is to make it easy to distribute and update Lisp code over the Internet 2020-10-08T10:45:32Z Xach: My name is not "Zack" and my username is not @xack 2020-10-08T10:45:57Z Xach: Being unaware of information is normal and fine - being sloppy with information is a little more irritating. 2020-10-08T10:46:55Z kreyren_ has dislexia so he does these typos often that's why is he letting them to be check by his friend before submitting them x.x 2020-10-08T10:46:58Z jackdaniel: Xack: you are damn right 2020-10-08T10:47:01Z kreyren_: sorry! resolving 2020-10-08T10:47:24Z Xach: at least it isn't mistaken as "Xah" or "Xarch" 2020-10-08T10:48:42Z kreyren_: sorry x.x 2020-10-08T10:49:14Z easye: Come to think of it, I've never seen Xach and Xah Lee in the same Emacs buffer... 2020-10-08T10:49:16Z kreyren_: hopefully adressed the mentioned issues, review appreciated https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47 2020-10-08T10:49:18Z yoja quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T10:49:24Z Xach: No problem - it only remains irritating when something inaccurate is left without correction, or worse, defended as accurate 2020-10-08T10:49:38Z kreyren_: agree 2020-10-08T10:51:38Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:52:07Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T10:52:29Z kreyren_: added disclaimer in case there are things that i've misrepresented 2020-10-08T10:53:49Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:55:47Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T10:56:45Z Stanley00 quit 2020-10-08T10:57:05Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T10:58:11Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2020-10-08T10:58:57Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T10:59:07Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T11:03:35Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-08T11:08:48Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-08T11:09:51Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T11:10:17Z srhm joined #lisp 2020-10-08T11:10:23Z Oddity__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T11:12:40Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-08T11:14:12Z narimiran quit (Ping 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#p"~/path/to/quicklisp.lisp") ? 2020-10-08T11:35:48Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-10-08T11:37:27Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T11:37:56Z phoe: nothing 2020-10-08T11:38:08Z phoe: other than the fact that you will need to manually install quicklisp then. 2020-10-08T11:38:21Z phoe: since this is just an installation script, not a full downloaded instance of quicklisp client. 2020-10-08T11:38:32Z kreyren_: i see x.x 2020-10-08T11:41:45Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T11:43:59Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver) 2020-10-08T11:45:53Z IAmRasputin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T11:48:05Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-08T11:48:37Z phoe: if anything, your cargo script could either configure quicklisp itself or somehow bundle a Lisp implementation along with its configured quicklisp client 2020-10-08T11:49:07Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T11:50:28Z IAmRasputin quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T11:50:58Z tsrt^ quit 2020-10-08T11:51:09Z kreyren_: phoe, that's what i was thinking also, but i try to brainstorm it with upstream 2020-10-08T11:51:31Z kreyren_: would be nice if it could run some tests using these implementations also, but me hit burnout atm 2020-10-08T11:53:24Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-08T11:54:25Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-08T11:54:40Z liberliver quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-08T11:55:25Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-08T11:56:24Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T11:56:43Z phoe: if anything, you could just depend on a preconfigured Quicklisp-capable Lisp implementation being available and leave configuring this to someone else. 2020-10-08T11:58:24Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T11:58:36Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-10-08T12:04:38Z srhm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T12:14:19Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-08T12:18:29Z kreyren_: phoe, also yes, but that's meh 2020-10-08T12:20:01Z saganman quit (Quit: Leaving) 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total-size of the array? Or is that just something taken for granted? 2020-10-08T18:12:17Z Bike: i don't believe the standard specifies timing. 2020-10-08T18:12:56Z Bike: or even mentions constant time as desirable, in fact 2020-10-08T18:13:32Z Bike: the abstract description is pretty much just "An array contains objects arranged according to a Cartesian coordinate system." 2020-10-08T18:15:40Z colluphid joined #lisp 2020-10-08T18:18:15Z catchme quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-08T18:18:23Z cjv quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-10-08T18:20:11Z jcowan: Okay. But I think a CL that required O(n) access/mutation would be seen as broken by actual users, or am I wrong? 2020-10-08T18:20:40Z jcowan: (Such a thing is essentially a list of pseudo-pairs on which RPLACD does not work.) 2020-10-08T18:20:59Z Bike: i probably wouldn't use it. maybe it would be necessary on some stupid computer architecture, though. 2020-10-08T18:21:33Z jcowan: Kind of the opposite of cdr-coding (I'm not sure why that idea lost popularity) 2020-10-08T18:22:28Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-08T18:22:31Z Bike: doesn't it get weird if you allow mutation. or just shared tails. 2020-10-08T18:23:05Z Bike: also O times are kind of weird these days because the machine has like twelve layers of cache 2020-10-08T18:25:24Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-08T18:25:25Z zaquest quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-08T18:25:54Z jcowan: Cdr-coding uses a 2-bit tag meaning (a) the cdr is in the next word, (b) the cdr *is* the next word (c) the cdr is nil. If you know the length of the list you want to allocate, you can lay it out as if it were a vector. 2020-10-08T18:26:15Z jcowan: I suppose the answer is that space-saving is not so critical nowadays 2020-10-08T18:26:31Z Bike: also that means cdr branches, which i would count as weird 2020-10-08T18:27:10Z jcowan: vs the time and memory cost of invisible forwarding pointers. 2020-10-08T18:27:41Z jcowan: In the days of microcode, such pointers could be provided at a low level 2020-10-08T18:28:01Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-10-08T18:29:33Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-08T18:30:03Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-08T18:30:09Z jcowan: Another possibility, not implemented AFAIK, is "cdr is in the previous word", which would handle construction by CONS as well as by LIST/MAKE-LIST 2020-10-08T18:30:12Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-08T18:34:20Z ebrasca: I think you can store multiple values in one register 2020-10-08T18:34:43Z ebrasca: Like multiple 8 bit bytes in 64 byt byte register. 2020-10-08T18:35:11Z ebrasca: Or in ppc64le 128bit register. 2020-10-08T18:44:31Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-08T18:46:23Z jcowan: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/lisp-faq/part2/section-9.html gives more details but is too old to say why it was abandoned. 2020-10-08T18:53:08Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-10-08T18:59:56Z drl quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2020-10-08T19:03:35Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:07:33Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:08:19Z devrtz quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2020-10-08T19:09:26Z pve: Hello, could anyone tell me if these two class and metaclass definitions are equivalent? 2020-10-08T19:09:26Z devrtz joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:09:29Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2074 2020-10-08T19:09:54Z pve: except that in the second case, foo-meta can't be found using find-class 2020-10-08T19:10:36Z liberliver quit (Quit: liberliver) 2020-10-08T19:11:47Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T19:11:52Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:12:07Z phoe: the latter has an anonymous superclass 2020-10-08T19:12:19Z phoe: anonymous, as in, not globally defined 2020-10-08T19:12:36Z phoe: uhh, sorry - anonymous metaclass 2020-10-08T19:12:57Z pve: yes, that's what I'm asking 2020-10-08T19:13:12Z pve: or rather, are they otherwise equivalent? 2020-10-08T19:14:06Z pve: i.e. I'd like for the metaclass to be anonymous 2020-10-08T19:14:30Z TwoNotes left #lisp 2020-10-08T19:14:44Z rogersm quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2020-10-08T19:15:00Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-08T19:15:52Z pve: seems to work just fine in the REPL, but maybe I've overlooked something 2020-10-08T19:17:27Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T19:21:58Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:22:03Z sr-hm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T19:22:49Z sr-hm joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:23:41Z phoe: seems OK 2020-10-08T19:25:17Z Bike: i don't remember off the top of my head how things defaulted, e.g. whether you need to pass :direct-slots nil 2020-10-08T19:25:21Z Bike: mop ensure-class 2020-10-08T19:25:21Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ensure-class.html 2020-10-08T19:25:32Z sr-hm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T19:25:53Z pve: Bike: oh, good point, I should add them 2020-10-08T19:25:59Z sr-hm joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:26:04Z Bike: "If the class metaobject is being initialized, this argument defaults to the empty list." don't need direct slots, i guess 2020-10-08T19:26:34Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:26:55Z Bike: or direct-default-initargs, which is the other one in the example in chapter 5's "Initialization of Class Metaobjects" 2020-10-08T19:27:04Z pve: ok 2020-10-08T19:27:46Z Bike: also, you can set a class's name, so it might be easier to just use defclass and then unset the name 2020-10-08T19:27:54Z pve: right 2020-10-08T19:29:10Z pve: I'm reading the Smalltalk-80 bluebook, and it says that certain metaclasses don't have names, and can only be reached by sending the message "class" to a class. So I'm just checking if that's possible to emulate in CLOS. 2020-10-08T19:29:38Z Bike: yeah, there are explicit provisions for anonymous classes... but it might be kind of inconvenient to arrange. 2020-10-08T19:29:50Z pve: It seems it is possible, though not a critical feature by any means 2020-10-08T19:30:00Z pve: (in my case) 2020-10-08T19:30:24Z Bike: i don't think the MOP people considered it enough, really. Usually you go through ensure-class to make a class, but it sets the binding and stuff for you, so no good for anonymity 2020-10-08T19:34:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:36:15Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-08T19:39:01Z pve: It's really cool how flexible CLOS/MOP is. I've now been able to make "class messages" work like they should using the metaclasses. 2020-10-08T19:40:26Z pve: Wonder if there is any overlap in the people who made CLOS and the people who made Smalltalk.. the concepts and terminology used are often very similar. 2020-10-08T19:41:27Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:42:53Z scymtym quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T19:43:13Z Bike: it's not something i've looked into very much, but i think the CLOS predecessor Flavors was more closely based on smlltalk 2020-10-08T19:43:43Z Bike: has messages and stuff 2020-10-08T19:43:49Z Bike: and it was an influence on CLOS obviously 2020-10-08T19:44:25Z ramHero quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T19:44:43Z ramHero joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:46:47Z johnweldon quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T19:48:25Z _paul0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T19:48:26Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:48:48Z paul0 joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:49:59Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-08T19:54:43Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T19:55:39Z jcowan: pve: AFAIK no Smalltalk metaclasses have names, although things like "Number class" are usually treated by humans as if they were names. 2020-10-08T19:55:53Z jcowan: (as well as being Smalltalk expressions) 2020-10-08T19:57:15Z jcowan: The two singularities of Smalltalk are that Object has no superclass and Metaclass class is Metaclass. 2020-10-08T19:57:23Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T19:57:54Z jcowan: So you can say that Metaclass is the only metaclass with a name: it is the parent of Object class, and provides the point at which the metaclass tree connects to the object class tree. 2020-10-08T19:59:16Z pve: jcowan: yeah, I said "certain" because I wasn't a 100% sure 2020-10-08T20:00:35Z jcowan: Sorry, I misstated the singularity: it's the class of Metaclass class that is Metaclass, that is, Metaclass class class is Metaclass. 2020-10-08T20:01:13Z pve: jcowan: It's fine, I know what you meant.. I'm looking at the class diagram now 2020-10-08T20:01:46Z pve: jcowan: to my disappointment, I learned that I won't be able replicate the Metaclass class => Metaclass thing in CLOS 2020-10-08T20:01:49Z jcowan: So if you follow the isubclass-of chain from SmallInteger you get Integer > Number > Magnitude > Object, whereas if you follow the is-a chain from 5 you get 5 > SmallInteger > SmallInteger class > Metaclass > Metaclass class > Metaclass ... 2020-10-08T20:02:03Z pve: yep 2020-10-08T20:02:57Z Bike: you can't make your own parallel hierarchy, but standard-class's class's class is standard-class in a similar way 2020-10-08T20:03:28Z Bike: or, well, its class is itself 2020-10-08T20:03:48Z jcowan: not quite the same 2020-10-08T20:04:05Z pve: Bike: yeah, right now I just say Metaclass is a standard-class and hope for the best :) 2020-10-08T20:04:25Z jcowan: If you are concerned with your own classes only, you can of course make your own metaclass with its own magic. 2020-10-08T20:05:55Z siloxid joined #lisp 2020-10-08T20:08:10Z nekosagan quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T20:09:32Z pve: jcowan: I've made a "Metaclass" class whose instances are "Object class" and other used-defined classes' metaclasses, and a "Class" class from which they inherit 2020-10-08T20:11:30Z jcowan nods. 2020-10-08T20:11:33Z jcowan: That's the ticket 2020-10-08T20:12:53Z srhm joined #lisp 2020-10-08T20:13:12Z pve: not touching built-in stuff like numbers, packages etc, except by providing a set of methods that map more or less directly to CL functions, so that e.g. "1 + 1 :max 3" works like you'd expect. 2020-10-08T20:13:31Z rogersm quit 2020-10-08T20:14:40Z jcowan: I hope the use of keyword notation means you get to put your keywords in any order desired. It's irritating that ST doesn't allow that. 2020-10-08T20:15:02Z pve: jcowan: sorry :) 2020-10-08T20:15:14Z pve: i try not to stray to far 2020-10-08T20:15:17Z jcowan: oh well 2020-10-08T20:15:52Z sr-hm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-08T20:16:02Z pve: *too 2020-10-08T20:16:05Z jcowan: I think there are places in the image where bar:foo: methods are defined on top of foo:bar: methods. 2020-10-08T20:23:06Z pve: Personally, I'm not bothered by the fixed order of keywords 2020-10-08T20:25:19Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2020-10-08T20:26:01Z jcowan: It's okay if there aren't too many or if the order makes sense. 2020-10-08T20:29:51Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-08T20:30:14Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-10-08T20:31:44Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T20:32:57Z kaftejiman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-08T20:33:07Z rixard joined #lisp 2020-10-08T20:33:09Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-08T20:33:14Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-08T20:36:27Z rixard_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T20:41:23Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T20:44:25Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-08T20:48:58Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T20:50:30Z luis quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T20:55:20Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T20:55:44Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-08T21:01:05Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T21:06:06Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-08T21:06:49Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-10-08T21:08:27Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T21:08:27Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-10-08T21:10:25Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T21:16:30Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-08T21:19:52Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T21:20:19Z defaultxr quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-08T21:20:58Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2020-10-08T21:31:25Z ramHero quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2020-10-08T21:32:23Z ramHero joined #lisp 2020-10-08T21:34:55Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-08T21:34:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-08T21:35:17Z sts-q quit (Quit: ) 2020-10-08T21:39:00Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-08T21:39:42Z siloxid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T21:46:13Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-08T21:46:55Z mindCrime quit (Excess Flood) 2020-10-08T21:47:21Z mindCrime joined #lisp 2020-10-08T21:52:04Z rav3n joined #lisp 2020-10-08T21:55:16Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-08T21:55:49Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-08T21:59:54Z v0|d joined #lisp 2020-10-08T22:09:03Z sonologico quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T22:18:05Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T22:18:40Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-08T22:23:07Z motersen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T22:32:35Z ramHero quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2020-10-08T22:39:42Z Steeve joined #lisp 2020-10-08T22:41:35Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-08T22:46:48Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-08T22:52:36Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-10-08T22:54:01Z v3ga: So i'm rather new to common lisp and just recently getting into lower level web development. If I didn't want to use a CL web server couldn't I just use apache and then a CL routing library and it should work? 2020-10-08T22:54:36Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-08T22:55:11Z v3ga: I'm not sure if I worded that correctly... 2020-10-08T22:55:40Z no-defun-allowed: Something like using Lisp as a CGI backend? I don't know if people still do that. 2020-10-08T22:56:02Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-08T22:56:59Z Jesin joined #lisp 2020-10-08T22:57:49Z no-defun-allowed: There is also mod_lisp on Apache and some other FastCGI libraries, but using a Lisp web server is probably better than the alternative. 2020-10-08T22:58:08Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-08T22:58:11Z v3ga: no-defun-allowed: hmm... 2020-10-08T22:58:37Z v3ga: which would you recommend for dealing with a web app of sorts? 2020-10-08T22:59:37Z no-defun-allowed: I've only ever used Hunchentoot. 2020-10-08T23:00:08Z v3ga: no-defun-allowed: gotcha 2020-10-08T23:00:08Z no-defun-allowed: But I don't write web things unless strictly necessary, so that's probably not a good recommendation. 2020-10-08T23:02:45Z v3ga: no-defun-allowed: it seems to be the most popular..and clack. but then they go into security and other things that just aren't where i'd like them to be. Someone suggested I just throw it yp with nginx backing it...so now i'm looking for some conversation or articles or nginx/apache and common lisp 2020-10-08T23:02:48Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-08T23:04:15Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-08T23:05:09Z v3ga: i'm also seeing people use node.js servers. Truthfully my concerns may be superfluous. 2020-10-08T23:06:01Z v3ga: I think i'm going to toy with 'ningle' and see what comes up. 2020-10-08T23:06:16Z White_Flame: if you want lower level web dev, just open a listening socket and go from there? 2020-10-08T23:08:05Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T23:09:31Z v3ga: White_Flame: truthfully, i'm not sure anymore. I suppose i'm looking for something similar to jetty or kttpkit but not on the jvm 2020-10-08T23:09:37Z siloxid joined #lisp 2020-10-08T23:09:55Z v3ga: but also..i'm future proofing when I really may not need to. 2020-10-08T23:11:01Z v3ga: I don't know. Let me shut up for now...i'll come back to it when I have some valid issue or hurdle. 2020-10-08T23:19:58Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-10-08T23:21:50Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-08T23:24:02Z madage quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-08T23:24:20Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-08T23:32:01Z v3ga: White_Flame: but what were you going to recommend IF I wanted to just deal with sockets? 2020-10-08T23:34:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T23:35:44Z takakitan joined #lisp 2020-10-08T23:45:05Z srhm quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-08T23:57:08Z kaftejiman quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T00:06:07Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-09T00:09:15Z remexre quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-09T00:10:21Z siloxid quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T00:14:00Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-09T00:24:45Z akoana left #lisp 2020-10-09T00:25:08Z takakitan quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-10-09T00:27:23Z thijso quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T00:41:28Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-09T00:43:52Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T00:47:26Z White_Flame: v3ga: usockets is the main portability lib for CL sockets 2020-10-09T00:48:03Z White_Flame: erm, usocket 2020-10-09T00:51:19Z refpga quit (Quit: Quit) 2020-10-09T00:51:37Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-09T00:54:24Z thijso joined #lisp 2020-10-09T00:55:36Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T00:58:19Z dbotton_ quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out) 2020-10-09T00:58:35Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-09T01:05:43Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2020-10-09T01:20:00Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-10-09T02:01:36Z frost-lab quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-09T02:09:08Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-10-09T02:09:39Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-09T02:28:10Z sword865 joined #lisp 2020-10-09T02:29:05Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T02:36:36Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-10-09T02:39:14Z nullheroes quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-09T02:43:01Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-09T02:56:27Z vegansbane7 joined #lisp 2020-10-09T02:56:33Z vegansbane quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-09T02:56:33Z vegansbane7 is now known as vegansbane 2020-10-09T02:59:46Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-09T03:02:07Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T03:02:59Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-09T03:05:21Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2020-10-09T03:08:03Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-09T03:18:08Z markasoftware: v3ga: definitely use Nginx in front of any cl web server 2020-10-09T03:19:05Z markasoftware: You need nginx as a reverse proxy...look up any tutorial for setting up nginx with node.js and it should work for a cl web server too 2020-10-09T03:19:33Z markasoftware: It just makes it a lot easier to configure site wide headers, set up SSL, redirects, etc 2020-10-09T03:20:01Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-10-09T03:20:47Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T03:21:16Z zacts: hello 2020-10-09T03:36:42Z mindCrime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-09T03:37:59Z jcowan left #lisp 2020-10-09T03:39:37Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-09T03:57:58Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T04:07:27Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T04:08:34Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-09T04:09:36Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-09T04:23:01Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-09T04:23:49Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-09T04:23:59Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-09T04:32:15Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2020-10-09T04:34:06Z bsd4me joined #lisp 2020-10-09T04:34:28Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-09T04:43:29Z v3ga: White_Flame: gotcha, thanks. =P 2020-10-09T04:46:58Z bsd4me quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-09T05:02:04Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-09T05:04:54Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2020-10-09T05:07:23Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-09T05:15:55Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-09T05:20:22Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-10-09T05:30:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T05:32:15Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-09T05:39:10Z sukaeto: v3ga: ningle has pretty good FastCGI support 2020-10-09T05:41:21Z sukaeto: I've used it (via caveman) in production, with a few FastCGI instances sitting behind nginx 2020-10-09T05:44:18Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T05:46:26Z epony quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T05:57:47Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-09T06:07:01Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-09T06:12:15Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-09T06:17:22Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-10-09T06:21:57Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-10-09T06:24:37Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-09T06:37:26Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-09T06:39:24Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-10-09T06:59:12Z rogersm left #lisp 2020-10-09T06:59:13Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-09T07:01:32Z motersen joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:02:35Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:05:57Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:15:30Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:16:18Z pve joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:17:47Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T07:21:03Z cjv joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:21:47Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T07:23:47Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T07:24:16Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:29:59Z epony joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:35:32Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:36:01Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:41:57Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:43:48Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-09T07:46:00Z luis0 joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:46:08Z luis7 joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:48:02Z remexre_ joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:51:39Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T07:51:50Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:51:50Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-10-09T07:51:50Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-09T07:51:57Z Colleen joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:02:47Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T08:02:58Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:02:59Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T08:03:00Z luis7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T08:03:27Z luis7 joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:03:29Z luis0 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T08:03:39Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:03:53Z luis75 joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:04:28Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:08:24Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:08:34Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:10:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T08:13:57Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-09T08:15:08Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T08:17:25Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T08:18:54Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T08:19:24Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:24:06Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-09T08:25:36Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:27:36Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-09T08:28:05Z kapil_ joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:33:09Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:35:38Z treflip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T08:38:16Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:38:31Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:40:12Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-09T08:40:27Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T08:40:46Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:40:47Z cjv quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-09T08:42:08Z cosimone quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-09T08:45:29Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:49:11Z dbotton__ joined #lisp 2020-10-09T08:49:57Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-09T08:52:25Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T09:01:14Z fwoaroof[m] quit (Quit: Idle for 30+ days) 2020-10-09T09:02:10Z uniminin joined #lisp 2020-10-09T09:03:30Z pve: Hi! In a call to a function, such as (make-foo :a 1 :b 2), is it correct to call the ":a 1 :b 2" part (including the keywords) the "arguments"? 2020-10-09T09:03:45Z pve: and "1" and "2" the "parameters"? 2020-10-09T09:04:00Z pve: sorry if this is too elementary 2020-10-09T09:04:10Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-09T09:04:33Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-09T09:06:29Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T09:11:28Z phoe: these are commonly called keyword parameters 2020-10-09T09:12:49Z phoe: the CLHS also calls them that way 2020-10-09T09:13:06Z phoe: as in, everything after &key is keyword parameters, except for any &allow-other-keys 2020-10-09T09:13:17Z beach: phoe: But these are the argument. 2020-10-09T09:13:24Z beach: Not the parameters. 2020-10-09T09:13:32Z beach: It's a call, not a definition. 2020-10-09T09:14:30Z phoe: oh! sorry 2020-10-09T09:14:45Z phoe re-reads 3.4.1.4 2020-10-09T09:16:42Z beach: pve: I think "keyword arguments" is fine. If you want to be more specific, you could say "keyword-argument pairs". 2020-10-09T09:17:09Z beach: pve: Notice, however, that you can't tell from a call whether they are keyword arguments. 2020-10-09T09:17:37Z beach: pve: For example: (list :a 1 :b 2) is a fine call, but they are not keyword arguments. 2020-10-09T09:17:58Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-09T09:18:18Z pve: beach: great, thanks 2020-10-09T09:18:23Z pve: phoe: ^ 2020-10-09T09:18:23Z beach: pve: Conversely, in something like (bla 'a 1 'b 2) they can very well be keyword arguments. 2020-10-09T09:19:50Z pve: beach: in (list :a 1 :b 2) they're just "arguments"? 2020-10-09T09:20:08Z beach: Yeah. 2020-10-09T09:20:15Z pve: ok, thank you 2020-10-09T09:20:54Z beach: Also try (defun f (x &key ((a y))) (list x y)) then (f 234 'a 33) 2020-10-09T09:21:13Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-09T09:21:34Z pve tries 2020-10-09T09:21:46Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-09T09:22:00Z no-defun-allowed: One too many parens around (a y)? 2020-10-09T09:22:21Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-09T09:22:29Z beach: I don't think so. Did I do it wrong? 2020-10-09T09:22:40Z no-defun-allowed: Well, that works -- I haven't seen that before. 2020-10-09T09:22:45Z beach: (a y) would be the variable a with a default value of y. 2020-10-09T09:22:54Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed. 2020-10-09T09:23:10Z beach: This means the variable y to be recognized by the keyword a. 2020-10-09T09:23:56Z beach: The glossary entry for "parameter" distinguishes between "parameter" and "argument". 2020-10-09T09:25:08Z pve: beach: hmm, I think I need to read the spec for that one.. my first reaction was also, "looks like one pair of parens too many" 2020-10-09T09:26:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-09T09:27:25Z ebrasca joined #lisp 2020-10-09T09:27:45Z pve: beach: ok, I think I understand now 2020-10-09T09:29:37Z pve: it's a way to have a keyword parameter that is not given with a keyword symbol 2020-10-09T09:30:37Z scymtym: it could still be a keyword but not the default one derived from the variable name 2020-10-09T09:30:49Z pve: right 2020-10-09T09:31:57Z srhm joined #lisp 2020-10-09T09:32:01Z beach: no-defun-allowed: You haven't seen it because you haven't attempted to implement lambda-list parsing. :) 2020-10-09T09:32:04Z pve: and reading the above again, beach did say it, but I just couldn't parse it 2020-10-09T09:32:05Z scymtym: which is probably the more common use-case because it let's you chose the keyword parameter name in a way that maintains the "external interface" but bind the passed argument to an unrelatedly named variable 2020-10-09T09:32:42Z no-defun-allowed: beach: That is quite possible :) 2020-10-09T09:39:42Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-09T09:40:59Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-10-09T09:42:23Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-09T09:46:23Z _death: one use for it is to bind to a special variable without an explicit let 2020-10-09T09:48:43Z _death: another is for CL names that can't be bound 2020-10-09T09:49:47Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T09:57:08Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-09T10:06:08Z radiohead_fan joined #lisp 2020-10-09T10:06:20Z radiohead_fan: has anybody ever worked with cl-tcod? 2020-10-09T10:10:04Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-09T10:12:37Z Xach: radiohead_fan: i have worked to get it to build on my system, but never actually used it 2020-10-09T10:19:23Z radiohead_fan: damn.... i need help with using it 2020-10-09T10:21:28Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-09T10:23:35Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T10:33:27Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T10:40:55Z uniminin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-09T10:46:57Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-09T10:51:39Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-09T10:52:31Z rtypo joined #lisp 2020-10-09T10:53:42Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T10:54:56Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-09T10:56:14Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-09T10:56:14Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-09T10:56:57Z davepdot_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-09T10:57:19Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-09T10:58:36Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-09T10:58:36Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-09T10:59:55Z davepdot_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-09T10:59:55Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-09T11:00:33Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-09T11:00:56Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-09T11:02:25Z santiagopim[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:26Z no-defun-allowed quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:26Z pcgme[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:26Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:26Z even4void[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:27Z kelamir[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:27Z kinope quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:27Z infra_red[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:27Z katco quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:28Z luis75 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-09T11:02:29Z MrtnDk[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:30Z goldrin1227[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:31Z tekipeps[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:32Z materialfuture[m quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:36Z xzax_[m]1 quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:41Z santiagopim[m]1 quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:45Z cairn quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:47Z Dmytro[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:49Z hansbauer[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:49Z xzax_[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:52Z eriix[m] quit (Quit: killed) 2020-10-09T11:02:52Z luis7 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T11:02:52Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-10-09T11:03:03Z luis75 joined #lisp 2020-10-09T11:04:15Z no-defun-allowed joined #lisp 2020-10-09T11:04:18Z no-defun-allowed: radiohead_fan: Do you really like True Stories that much? I thought it was generally considered to be Talking Heads' worst album. 2020-10-09T11:04:18Z no-defun-allowed: Joking aside, what's it do? It looks like you use it to make roguelike games. 2020-10-09T11:04:50Z radiohead_fan: yeah its for roguelikes 2020-10-09T11:05:05Z radiohead_fan: wanted to make a very small roguelike for this halloween 2020-10-09T11:05:28Z no-defun-allowed: I see. 2020-10-09T11:10:25Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-09T11:10:52Z cairn joined #lisp 2020-10-09T11:11:29Z radiohead_fan: everything was going fine but when i was coding the part of the key input i found no way of making a key exit and close the window, ive even tried other methods (from various tutorials) and they just dont seem to work 2020-10-09T11:24:44Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-09T11:25:11Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2020-10-09T11:26:52Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-09T11:28:06Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-09T11:28:57Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-09T11:29:24Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-09T11:30:17Z davepdotorg quit 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Hard to find examples 2020-10-10T01:31:08Z iissaacc: even a pointer (lmao) to some code where this is done would be helpful 2020-10-10T01:31:46Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think that's how FINALIZE works; here it's a non-generic function that takes an object, a finalizer function, and some other stuff. 2020-10-10T01:31:47Z White_Flame: there's an example in the sbcl manual: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Finalization 2020-10-10T01:32:07Z White_Flame: the lambda holds a closure over the foreign pointer, not the object holding it 2020-10-10T01:32:49Z White_Flame: and yeah, you don't define a finalizer per class of object, but on each individual instance 2020-10-10T01:32:54Z no-defun-allowed: Supposing you had a standard-instance, you could do (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((object class) &key) (let ((handle the-handle)) (sb-ext:finalize object (lambda () (release handle))))) 2020-10-10T01:38:23Z iissaacc: right 2020-10-10T01:38:47Z iissaacc: I was just confused about the handle itself but i get the idea now. the handle is the pointer 2020-10-10T01:39:02Z iissaacc: thanks! 2020-10-10T01:39:18Z White_Flame: np 2020-10-10T01:47:51Z iissaacc: so i could do an :after initialize-instance method on my class and put the pointer creation and finalize stuff in there i guess 2020-10-10T01:48:45Z iissaacc: ah lol ignore that. just read the whole of no-defun-allowed's message 2020-10-10T01:49:29Z arpunk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T01:51:47Z no-defun-allowed: But you should probably use trivial-garbage to finalize; which has the same interface but is portable. 2020-10-10T01:53:27Z iissaacc: aha yes i just discovered that via google 2020-10-10T01:54:07Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T01:54:11Z iissaacc: shot (bro/sis) 2020-10-10T01:57:03Z iissaacc: another noob question - im rewriting some code from a library. I was redefining the functions like (defun library:function (my changes)) 2020-10-10T01:57:33Z iissaacc: but this is probably a bad idea right? since it would change those functions for any code u have loaded in your image that uses them 2020-10-10T01:58:32Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that is usually a bad idea, but if it's not possible to extend, you could get away with modifying it in a way that preserves the original behaviour. 2020-10-10T01:59:53Z no-defun-allowed: Or you probably should just have a modified copy of the original implementation in your packages. 2020-10-10T02:01:50Z iissaacc: ok i shall change it 2020-10-10T02:07:54Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2020-10-10T02:11:36Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T02:11:36Z cosimone_ is now known as cosimone 2020-10-10T02:15:25Z galex-713 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-10-10T02:16:30Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-10T02:22:23Z jdgr quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-10-10T02:28:03Z rtypo joined #lisp 2020-10-10T02:32:56Z rtypo quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-10T02:35:07Z frgo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-10T02:35:13Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-10T02:36:30Z Volt_ joined #lisp 2020-10-10T02:37:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-10T02:47:06Z Guest32015 is now known as bmansurov 2020-10-10T02:50:19Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2020-10-10T02:56:56Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-10-10T03:01:24Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-10T03:08:25Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-10-10T03:17:18Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-10T03:23:33Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T03:30:43Z sts-q quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-10T03:30:56Z Nilby joined #lisp 2020-10-10T03:36:49Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-10T03:37:13Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-10T03:56:20Z thecoffemaker quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-10T04:00:45Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-10T04:02:56Z aaaaaa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-10T04:11:00Z Volt_ quit (Quit: ) 2020-10-10T04:22:25Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-10T04:22:43Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T04:36:56Z akoana left #lisp 2020-10-10T04:39:05Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T04:41:03Z jibanes joined #lisp 2020-10-10T04:49:17Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T04:52:41Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-10T04:58:25Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-10T04:58:48Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-10-10T04:59:27Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2020-10-10T05:00:00Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-10T05:01:35Z broccolistem quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-10T05:02:08Z broccolistem joined #lisp 2020-10-10T05:08:28Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-10T05:16:32Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-10T05:27:22Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-10T05:28:46Z broccolistem is now known as GanjaJim 2020-10-10T05:36:46Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-10T05:38:50Z GanjaJim is now known as ganjajim 2020-10-10T05:39:27Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T05:42:54Z ganjajim quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-10-10T05:44:03Z ganjajim joined #lisp 2020-10-10T05:45:15Z ganjajim quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-10T05:45:38Z ganjajim joined #lisp 2020-10-10T05:55:17Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-10T05:56:03Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-10-10T05:58:20Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-10-10T06:04:18Z saganman: Morning beach 2020-10-10T06:05:53Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T06:11:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T06:13:05Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2020-10-10T06:13:24Z pve joined #lisp 2020-10-10T06:18:47Z skapata quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-10T06:19:38Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-10T06:25:45Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T06:32:28Z Jeanne-Kamikaze quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-10T06:36:47Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T06:38:44Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-10T06:43:50Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-10-10T06:49:03Z TMA joined #lisp 2020-10-10T07:01:27Z sm2n_ joined #lisp 2020-10-10T07:03:32Z sm2n quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-10T07:03:49Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-10T07:06:09Z jello_pudding quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.6) 2020-10-10T07:07:04Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-10T07:07:20Z jello_pudding joined #lisp 2020-10-10T07:08:31Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n 2020-10-10T07:19:53Z _Posterdati_ quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2020-10-10T07:20:18Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2020-10-10T07:32:26Z lottaquestions joined #lisp 2020-10-10T07:38:28Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T07:39:28Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-10T07:44:06Z bhartrihari: Is there any CL code to read on the Internet that uses the series library for iteration? 2020-10-10T07:54:00Z heisig: (ql:who-depends-on "series") => ("folio2" "folio2-sequences" "folio2-series" "periods-series" "series-tests") 2020-10-10T07:57:55Z afidegnum joined #lisp 2020-10-10T07:59:22Z afidegnum: hi, i'm tryinb to build a 2d graphics made of graphs, but i would like to save the outpout of those graphs in json. what CL library do you suggest ? 2020-10-10T08:00:57Z bhartrihari: heisig: Thank you. 2020-10-10T08:01:39Z ldb joined #lisp 2020-10-10T08:01:45Z ldb: good afternoon 2020-10-10T08:02:49Z aeth: Interesting, I can't do ql:who-depends-on because org.borodust.bodge is 404ing and I can't temporarily remove org.borodust.bodge because if I do (ql:uninstall-dist "org.borodust.bodge") it also gets "Unexpected HTTP status for #: 404" 2020-10-10T08:03:15Z ganjajim quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-10T08:03:20Z aeth: It looks like the current is http://bodge.borodust.org/dist/org.borodust.bodge/20201008075703/ but I can't ql:update-all-dists because org.borodust.bodge is 404ing. 2020-10-10T08:04:18Z afidegnum: any insight ? 2020-10-10T08:04:39Z phoe: afidegnum: there's a few choices, one second 2020-10-10T08:05:23Z ldb: afidegnum: json-streams can be a candidate for your purpose 2020-10-10T08:05:27Z phoe: https://phmarek.github.io/yason/ possibly 2020-10-10T08:06:15Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-10T08:06:35Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2020-10-10T08:06:40Z afidegnum: ok thanks, 2020-10-10T08:07:17Z aeth: (I can just get rid of the dist's directory and everything seems to work, but it's weird that Quicklisp itself has no way to recover internally from this.) 2020-10-10T08:07:55Z afidegnum: for the 2d graphics, with parents/child shapes, clickable event ..... 2020-10-10T08:08:23Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-10T08:10:43Z hendursa1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T08:12:15Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-10-10T08:12:30Z afidegnum: what's your suggestion for the graphics ? 2020-10-10T08:22:14Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5+deb4 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-10T08:22:24Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2020-10-10T08:23:07Z beach: afidegnum: McCLIM, obviously. 2020-10-10T08:23:47Z afidegnum: beach: does McCLIM offers 2d graphics? the last time i checked, it offers just the GUI 2020-10-10T08:24:25Z beach: You must have checked sometime during the 20th century. 2020-10-10T08:24:25Z motersen joined #lisp 2020-10-10T08:24:33Z afidegnum: :) 2020-10-10T08:25:02Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-10T08:36:33Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-10-10T08:42:15Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-10T08:42:15Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-10-10T08:42:15Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-10T08:42:22Z galex-713 quit (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-10-10T08:42:53Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-10T08:49:25Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T08:50:44Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-10T08:51:29Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-10-10T08:55:21Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-10T08:56:38Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T08:59:34Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-10-10T08:59:34Z karlosz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-10T09:02:37Z afidegnum quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-10T09:04:12Z afidegnum joined #lisp 2020-10-10T09:06:38Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-10T09:13:27Z saganman: seems like there is no such a thing as function in lisp 2020-10-10T09:13:38Z saganman: I was going through debugger 2020-10-10T09:13:45Z beach: What? 2020-10-10T09:13:51Z saganman: defun defines a macro 2020-10-10T09:13:56Z beach: No. 2020-10-10T09:13:57Z saganman: it is a macro 2020-10-10T09:14:00Z beach: Defun IS a macro. 2020-10-10T09:14:14Z saganman: oh 2020-10-10T09:14:26Z beach: When a DEFUN form is evaluated, it defines a function. 2020-10-10T09:14:58Z beach: But DEFUN is a macro that essentially does (setf (fdefinition ) (lambda (...) ...)) 2020-10-10T09:15:09Z beach: So LAMBDA is the function constructor. 2020-10-10T09:17:50Z heisig: LAMBDA is a macro, too :) 2020-10-10T09:18:09Z heisig: If anything, FUNCTION is the function constructor. 2020-10-10T09:18:13Z beach: Why did I just *know* that someone would say that. 2020-10-10T09:18:43Z beach: Not quite. (FUNCTION F) does not construct anything. 2020-10-10T09:19:01Z beach: So if you want to be picky, (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ...)) is the function constructor. 2020-10-10T09:19:05Z bocaneri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T09:19:16Z heisig: :D 2020-10-10T09:20:32Z saganman: "defun implicitly puts a block named block-name around the body forms (but not the forms in the lambda-list) of the function defined." 2020-10-10T09:20:33Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T09:21:00Z beach: Sounds right. 2020-10-10T09:24:38Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-10T09:25:49Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-10T09:25:51Z saganman: ah, I misunderstood 2020-10-10T09:25:58Z ldb quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-10T09:26:00Z saganman: it is kind of tricky 2020-10-10T09:28:22Z saganman: it is easy to misunderstand to have a macro that defines a function which is only evaluated?/compiled? only when the said function appears in the code 2020-10-10T09:28:46Z saganman: to a dumb guy like me, it seems like macro 2020-10-10T09:28:47Z beach: saganman: So that phrase means that if you type (DEFUN FF (X) (1+ X)), the macro expands to something like (SETF (FDEFINITION 'FF) (LAMBDA (X) (BLOCK FF (1+ X)))), so that you can say (RETURN-FROM FF ...) in the function body. 2020-10-10T09:29:20Z saganman: beach: oh, I see 2020-10-10T09:29:21Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-10T09:29:37Z saganman: beach: now I see it clearly 2020-10-10T09:30:28Z saganman: beach: your explanation is better than clhs 2020-10-10T09:31:00Z beach: The Common Lisp HyperSpec is not meant for users. It is a document for people creating Common Lisp implementations. 2020-10-10T09:32:00Z beach: There are several ways in which a function defined by DEFUN can come into existence. You can type the DEFUN form at the REPL, in which case EVAL is called to evaluate the form. 2020-10-10T09:32:23Z beach: You can LOAD a file containing the DEFUN form. Again, EVAL is called. 2020-10-10T09:32:52Z beach: You can first compile a file containing the form (that won't create the function), and then load the compiled file. 2020-10-10T09:32:57Z saganman: yeah, I have been doing that 2020-10-10T09:33:27Z saganman: I have been writing functions on one side, C-c C-c and use them in slime 2020-10-10T09:33:33Z beach: I was trying to elaborate on your remarks on how easy it is to misunderstand. 2020-10-10T09:34:15Z saganman: oh okay 2020-10-10T09:36:11Z bocaneri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T09:36:23Z sauvin_ joined #lisp 2020-10-10T09:37:33Z dolphin5430 joined #lisp 2020-10-10T09:38:15Z dolphin5430 quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-10T09:46:14Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-10T09:54:58Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-10T09:56:40Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-10T09:57:59Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-10-10T10:01:05Z hapticFeels quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T10:07:36Z rav3n quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-10T10:13:23Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-10T10:17:05Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T10:17:50Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-10T10:20:41Z met` joined #lisp 2020-10-10T10:22:33Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T10:23:09Z met`: In CL, is it necessary to user :accessor for a class slot to modify the contents internal to the data structure at the slot? E.g. if the slot contains a list, and I want to set/add/remove a value in the list, would :reader be sufficient (I'm not changing the thing that is stored in the slot, just its contents)? 2020-10-10T10:25:39Z _death: if the slot contains (list 'x) and you remove x, then you are changing the slot's contents, as it would become nil 2020-10-10T10:25:43Z beach: met`: Well, a list is a bad example. 2020-10-10T10:25:47Z no-defun-allowed: Generally, no, but "modifying" lists usually requires you to modify the place they reside in. 2020-10-10T10:26:21Z met`: Ah right, since the "list" is just the top cons cell, right? 2020-10-10T10:26:24Z no-defun-allowed: If it was another standard-instance or a vector, then it'd be doable, as those are modified by modifying values in those objects. 2020-10-10T10:26:48Z beach: met`: So if you modify only the elements of the list, and not its CONS cells, you are fine. 2020-10-10T10:26:49Z _death: you can always change slots directly by using (setf slot-value) 2020-10-10T10:26:51Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, or NIL, which can't be modified at all. 2020-10-10T10:27:14Z met`: OK. But in the case of an array or hash-table it should be fine? 2020-10-10T10:27:21Z beach: yes. 2020-10-10T10:27:44Z met`: Thank you all. 2020-10-10T10:27:52Z beach: Anytime. 2020-10-10T10:28:08Z no-defun-allowed: No problem. 2020-10-10T10:28:44Z gabiruh quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-10T10:29:02Z gabiruh joined #lisp 2020-10-10T10:30:09Z _death: for vectors, it's the same story, unless you make sure you modify them in place (and perhaps make them adjustable) 2020-10-10T10:31:20Z met`: Can someone offer some perspective on how to think about "references vs values" in CL? From other languages I'm used to pointers for reference types (mostly) and other things being treated as values, and copied when e.g. passed as a function parameter. From reading some chapters in Practical Common Lisp I understood it as "everything is an object" in CL, which I guess would mean everything is treated as a reference? 2020-10-10T10:31:29Z dxtr joined #lisp 2020-10-10T10:32:08Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, every object is one reference away in Common Lisp (and AFAICT, most other Lisp languages). 2020-10-10T10:32:28Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-10-10T10:32:34Z _death: Lisp is pass by value.. sometimes the values are references 2020-10-10T10:33:18Z met`: So how can I determine that the thing I'm passing is passed as a reference? 2020-10-10T10:33:58Z beach: met`: Assume it always is. 2020-10-10T10:34:13Z beach: met`: That's the semantic model. 2020-10-10T10:36:03Z beach: met`: The phrase "call by value" does not talk about the nature of the objects passed to a function. It only means that the arguments are evaluated before the function is applied. 2020-10-10T10:36:17Z beach: met`: So the values are references in Common Lisp. 2020-10-10T10:36:46Z _death: beach is right.. fixnums and characters for example may be copied (and hence may not be EQ to each other) but otherwise you can assume all values passed are references 2020-10-10T10:36:46Z met`: That makes sense. 2020-10-10T10:36:59Z met`: Thanks! 2020-10-10T10:37:16Z beach: met`: Also, "everything is an object" is an often repeated phrase, except that it is not true. 2020-10-10T10:37:32Z no-defun-allowed: Depending on who you ask, objects can be passed by value, like in C++, so that's not exactly equivalent; but it suffices to say nothing is copied in a way that you could observe it being copied (except for some things being tested with EQ). 2020-10-10T10:37:32Z beach: met`: A comment is not an object. A place is not an object. 2020-10-10T10:39:35Z aeth: met`: My thoughts on this is that nearly every object is a reference, it's just that immutable, optimizable things that can fit within a machine word (especially fixnums, but also probably characters, single-floats, etc.) are probably optimized away from actually being something like pointers internally. But this isn't visible to you directly, or you couldn't do that. 2020-10-10T10:39:36Z beach: met`: What I call "uniform reference semantics" is the only sane way of programming. Languages that distinguish between pointers and non-pointers quickly become way too complicated for application programming. 2020-10-10T10:40:43Z met`: In my case I want some object whose (read-only) state is shared between several implementers of another class, in a slot of that class. Would it then be enough to set the value of that slot in those class implementers to be the object whose state I want to be shared? 2020-10-10T10:40:59Z no-defun-allowed: My guess is C++ and Perl are the only frequently used "object oriented" languages that (can) pass by value. 2020-10-10T10:41:25Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Please don't use "pass by value" that way. It is not what the term means. 2020-10-10T10:41:29Z _death: no-defun-allowed: Lisp is pass by value! 2020-10-10T10:41:34Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, if you set them to the same object, they'll reference the same object; but I'm not sure what you mean by "implementers of another class". 2020-10-10T10:42:19Z no-defun-allowed: Right, I'll go revise what those words mean. 2020-10-10T10:42:21Z phoe: "pass by value" is a misnomer, should be "pass by copy" 2020-10-10T10:42:31Z kinope: Something that tripped me up until I 'got' it was that if you want to mutate a list of objects by destructively replacing a single element you need to target the `car` of the cons cell that contains the element as it is the cons cell that contains the reference to that object and the reference to the rest of the list. 2020-10-10T10:42:47Z phoe: in C++, passing by value means that you copy a thing and then pass it to a function - and you need to define what copying that thing means 2020-10-10T10:43:27Z aeth: It also means that for things around the boundary of copying vs. referencing, you can fall into the attitude of trying to microoptimize which to use 2020-10-10T10:43:29Z phoe: in CL, passing by value/reference/whatever means that you pass literally the same object - except the implementation is allowed to optimize for fixnums and characters and copy'em over 2020-10-10T10:43:55Z beach: phoe: Then they use it in a way that is not the widely agreed-upon meaning. 2020-10-10T10:44:17Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-10-10T10:44:31Z phoe: beach: sadly, the C++ people are the ones who define what is the widely agreed-upon meaning 2020-10-10T10:44:46Z beach: Though I guess "pass by value" could be distinct from "call by value". 2020-10-10T10:44:55Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, looking up "pass by value" really only provides phoe's definition. 2020-10-10T10:45:00Z aeth: phoe: Not fixnums and characters. Numbers and characters. Various floating point types might count (especially short-float) and in theory there probably could be a "fixnum" of rationals that semantically could be made to fit in CL, it's just that no one bothers... unless I'm mistaken. 2020-10-10T10:45:01Z beach: phoe: Oh, that would be very sad indeed. 2020-10-10T10:45:52Z beach: no-defun-allowed: So then "pass by value" is different from "call by value". That's terrible. 2020-10-10T10:46:06Z phoe: aeth: that's what I meant by the implementation being allowed to optimize 2020-10-10T10:46:21Z met`: no-defun-allowed: I mean that the object I want shared is of some class A, and there is another class B with a slot to store a reference to an object of class A as read-only. Then each subclass of class B will store the shared object in the slot from the superclass and implement a method which operates on the state stored in the object of class A. Maybe there is a simpler way to achieve this... 2020-10-10T10:46:24Z phoe: that's in the cases where the objects are immutable so it's impossible to mutate one of them and observe the change elsewhere 2020-10-10T10:46:38Z _death: pass by value means that values are copied.. in this case the values are references to objects, so (defun swap (x y) (rotatef x y)) won't have an outside effect because the references are local, i.e. only the local bindings are modified 2020-10-10T10:47:30Z phoe: met`: (defclass a () ()) (defclass b () ((a :initarg :a :reader a))) (defvar *my-b* (make-instance 'b :a (make-instance 'a))) 2020-10-10T10:47:36Z phoe: does this work? 2020-10-10T10:47:57Z phoe: this doesn't really take sharedness into account 2020-10-10T10:47:58Z met`: phoe: Yeah that was what I was thinking of doing. 2020-10-10T10:48:24Z met`: Or actually no 2020-10-10T10:48:24Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-10T10:48:27Z phoe: if you want a slot with a single shared value for all subclasses, :allocation :class on the slot is the way to go 2020-10-10T10:48:36Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-10T10:48:38Z no-defun-allowed: Eugh, okay. In C++, not copying an object that is the argument of a function is arguably the exceptional case, as you have to put a & after a parameter type to get "a reference". And I think I misread about Perl; they have a "call by value" definition in their glossary, but there isn't a mechanism to achieve that. 2020-10-10T10:48:41Z phoe: (unless some subclass overrides the slot definition, at which point, they wanted it) 2020-10-10T10:49:27Z met`: phoe: Oh that's what I was looking for! 2020-10-10T10:49:46Z phoe: awesome 2020-10-10T10:50:18Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I recently got into a mess with a Java programmer, who had a different definition of "late binding" (which would probably be called dynamic dispatch elsewhere). 2020-10-10T10:50:32Z met`: phoe: So in that case I can store an object of the superclass, modify it, and see the changes reflected in each subclass? 2020-10-10T10:51:27Z phoe: actually the object will be stored when you create the instance 2020-10-10T10:51:30Z phoe: see :a (make-instance 'a) 2020-10-10T10:53:07Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-10-10T10:53:42Z met`: So let's say I have 2 slots, a list and a hash table, in the superclass with :allocation :class. Can I update those slots and see the changes reflected in the subclasses as well? 2020-10-10T10:53:49Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T10:53:49Z kinope: met`: I think you could construct a cons cell with the object like (cons obj nil) then store the cons cell in the slot for each class you access the obj via (car (slot-value ...)) and can change the object via (setf (car (slot-value ...))) 2020-10-10T10:54:09Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I see. It is sad when people arbitrarily redefine established terminology. 2020-10-10T10:54:12Z phoe: met`: yes, that's the idea of class-allocated slots 2020-10-10T10:54:24Z phoe: update once, see the change everywhere 2020-10-10T10:54:54Z met`: OK, excellent. This should make things a lot simpler. 2020-10-10T10:54:56Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-10T10:55:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-10T10:59:23Z _death: met: it will be the same as long as the subclasses don't say otherwise, e.g. by supplying a different initform or making the allocation :instance 2020-10-10T10:59:57Z phoe: but then the class in question will be explicly asking for it, so, it's not the problem of the parent 2020-10-10T11:00:18Z _death: phoe: right, it's just a nice feature to be aware of 2020-10-10T11:03:28Z met`: Makes sense. Thanks again to everyone. 2020-10-10T11:15:29Z pve: beach: Not sure if you mentioned it, but what *is* the definition of "call by value"? 2020-10-10T11:16:09Z pve: Oh, you did say, I see it now.. nevermind :) 2020-10-10T11:16:38Z AlexisTP joined #lisp 2020-10-10T11:20:07Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T11:23:16Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-10T11:27:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-10T11:28:10Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-10T11:30:26Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-10-10T11:33:05Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-10T11:33:12Z Lycurgus: peccavi for replying to the new user the other day that defun didn return anything, at most i should have linked the hyperspec 2020-10-10T11:33:42Z Lycurgus: deserves comment because it makes me look stupid in re fp generally 2020-10-10T11:33:58Z Lycurgus: and this isn't a good place for idle chat 2020-10-10T11:45:22Z met` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)) 2020-10-10T11:46:10Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-10T11:47:13Z decentyousername joined #lisp 2020-10-10T11:48:25Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-10T11:52:12Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T11:54:32Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-10T11:55:53Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-10T11:57:16Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2020-10-10T12:07:36Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-10-10T12:07:40Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-10T12:08:45Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-10-10T12:09:46Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-10T12:10:53Z AlexisTP quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-10T12:11:43Z decentyousername: In "Practical Common Lisp" chapter 20, Peter says the following in regards to multiple values: "The mechanism by which multiple values are returned is implementation dependent just like the mechanism for passing arguments into functions is. Almost all language constructs that return the value of some subform will "pass through" multple values, returning all the values returned by the subform. Thus, a function that returns the r 2020-10-10T12:11:44Z decentyousername: calling VALUES or VALUES-LIST will itself return multiple values-and so will another function whose result comes from calling the first function And so on." 2020-10-10T12:12:07Z decentyousername: I've read that section ten times and still don't understand what he means. 2020-10-10T12:12:14Z decentyousername: or what he's trying to explain. 2020-10-10T12:12:18Z phoe: (defun foo () (values 1 2 3)) 2020-10-10T12:12:24Z phoe: (foo) ;=> 1 2 3 2020-10-10T12:12:28Z phoe: (defun bar () (foo)) 2020-10-10T12:12:31Z izh_ joined #lisp 2020-10-10T12:12:33Z phoe: (bar) ;=> 1 2 3 2020-10-10T12:13:41Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-10T12:14:57Z decentyousername: "Thus, a function that returns the result of calling VALUES and VALUES-LIST will itself return multple values and so will another function whose result comes from calling the first function and so on." 2020-10-10T12:15:04Z decentyousername: That's the part I don't get. 2020-10-10T12:15:28Z luis75 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-10T12:15:42Z phoe: this is the part that I explained 2020-10-10T12:15:43Z decentyousername: I've understood the part that almost all forms will return multiple values if the last form returns multiple values. 2020-10-10T12:16:08Z phoe: if FOO returns multiple values, then BAR will also return multiple values because its result comes from calling FOO 2020-10-10T12:16:16Z decentyousername: oh 2020-10-10T12:16:19Z decentyousername: thanks 2020-10-10T12:16:37Z decentyousername: phoe, you're my hero. :) 2020-10-10T12:16:55Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 2020-10-10T12:17:08Z phoe: decentyousername: pleasure 2020-10-10T12:17:13Z decentyousername: The book should've put that example in there. 2020-10-10T12:17:23Z decentyousername: Maybe I'm just weird for not getting it. 2020-10-10T12:17:32Z phoe: don't worry about it 2020-10-10T12:17:52Z phoe: there's tons of things that sometimes require a different/good example in order to click 2020-10-10T12:18:14Z phoe: I get the same kind of mental reactions when trying to understand stuff 2020-10-10T12:18:28Z decentyousername: That's why I like the OpenBSD man pages, they often have great examples, which explain a lot more than ten paragraphs of text. 2020-10-10T12:18:35Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-10T12:18:47Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T12:21:14Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-10-10T12:21:32Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2020-10-10T12:22:25Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-10T12:27:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T12:27:13Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-10T12:28:30Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-10T12:31:12Z isBEKaml quit 2020-10-10T12:31:17Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T12:34:07Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-10T12:49:20Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-10-10T12:54:12Z niceplace quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-10T12:59:20Z gxt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T12:59:22Z motersen quit 2020-10-10T13:07:34Z Lycurgus joined #lisp 2020-10-10T13:10:52Z renzhi joined #lisp 2020-10-10T13:20:21Z gxt joined #lisp 2020-10-10T13:21:50Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-10T13:23:37Z _Ark_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-10T13:23:50Z _Ark_ joined #lisp 2020-10-10T13:32:08Z hendursaga quit (Quit: hendursaga) 2020-10-10T13:32:34Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-10T13:33:26Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T13:47:18Z ted_wroclaw joined #lisp 2020-10-10T13:48:08Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-10T13:51:23Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-10T13:51:38Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-10T13:56:56Z TwoNotes joined #lisp 2020-10-10T13:57:41Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-10T13:58:50Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-10T14:00:50Z izh_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-10T14:04:12Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-10T14:04:40Z drot quit (Quit: Quit.) 2020-10-10T14:05:03Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-10T14:08:44Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-10T14:11:55Z Xach: I'm starting to think that the things that are broken today won't be fixed any time soon 2020-10-10T14:12:10Z Xach: (Maybe I'm attaching too much significance to no response to bug reports) 2020-10-10T14:14:15Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-10T14:14:28Z Lycurgus: do you know of any other package that uses the gbbopen module system? 2020-10-10T14:16:01Z Lycurgus: (and i'd have thought with so many pkgs you would just arbitrate/cut off at will) 2020-10-10T14:20:37Z phoe: Xach: which things? 2020-10-10T14:22:42Z decentyousername: Are we talking about libraries in quicklisp? 2020-10-10T14:22:47Z decentyousername: O . o 2020-10-10T14:28:27Z achilles quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T14:28:59Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T14:34:17Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-10T14:46:07Z ganjajim joined #lisp 2020-10-10T14:46:54Z phoe: you mean the recent SBCL typing breakage? 2020-10-10T14:47:09Z phoe: s/breakage/warning on non-conforming code/ 2020-10-10T14:47:19Z nullheroes joined #lisp 2020-10-10T14:49:06Z ganjajim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T14:51:15Z arpunk joined #lisp 2020-10-10T14:51:18Z Nilby quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T14:53:23Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T14:53:46Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-10T14:55:21Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-10T14:55:57Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-10T14:55:57Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-10-10T14:55:57Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-10T14:56:29Z MichaelRaskin joined #lisp 2020-10-10T15:00:32Z ganjajim joined #lisp 2020-10-10T15:02:54Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-10T15:07:50Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-10T15:08:06Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-10T15:11:08Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-10T15:15:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-10T15:15:40Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-10T15:17:14Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-10T15:17:55Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-10T15:30:27Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-10-10T15:41:04Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-10T15:46:31Z achilles joined #lisp 2020-10-10T15:49:15Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp 2020-10-10T15:51:12Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-10T15:55:55Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-10T15:57:28Z thecoffemaker quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-10T16:00:41Z kaftejiman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-10T16:00:55Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-10T16:01:03Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-10T16:01:11Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T16:01:25Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-10-10T16:05:06Z thecoffemaker joined #lisp 2020-10-10T16:10:37Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T16:25:26Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2020-10-10T16:25:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-10T16:28:07Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-10T16:29:52Z drdee joined #lisp 2020-10-10T16:30:03Z drdee quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T16:35:13Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-10T16:35:47Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-10T16:37:30Z rick-monster joined #lisp 2020-10-10T16:44:55Z dra joined #lisp 2020-10-10T16:55:27Z treflip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T16:57:41Z Xach: phoe: yeah 2020-10-10T17:02:18Z phoe: how many PRs were accepted and how many were not? 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does anyone have links to opened issues on SBCL type nonsense that's appeared recently? 2020-10-10T18:18:16Z mseddon: (and perhaps it is just previously un-noticed nonsense that I was in a bad habit of, phoe?) 2020-10-10T18:20:18Z alxplore_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T18:22:10Z Xach: phoe: I haven't seen many PRs at all 2020-10-10T18:23:25Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-10T18:24:54Z phoe: oh! I meant issues 2020-10-10T18:24:58Z phoe: I remember you making those 2020-10-10T18:25:04Z phoe: what are the stats? 2020-10-10T18:25:16Z phoe: mseddon: it's actually sense, just people were doing sloppy coding 2020-10-10T18:25:29Z Codaraxis_ joined #lisp 2020-10-10T18:27:27Z Codaraxis quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T18:27:46Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-10-10T18:29:49Z alxplore_ joined #lisp 2020-10-10T18:31:49Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-10T18:34:43Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T18:36:17Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-10T18:36:37Z mseddon: phoe: yeah, I didn't think it was SBCL, I thought I had suddenly become more stupid. 2020-10-10T18:38:10Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-10T18:38:20Z Xach: phoe: hmm, not sure. i think i made 20 or 30. maybe 5 or so closed. not 100% sure. 2020-10-10T18:38:28Z Xach: (i can/should write a program to do that for me...) 2020-10-10T18:39:16Z phantomics: question: I often write loops like this: (loop :for x :in some-list :counting x :into xcount :do ...) 2020-10-10T18:39:17Z terpri_ is now known as terpri 2020-10-10T18:39:40Z phantomics: The xcount starts at 1 instead of 0, which can be annoying, is there an expedient way to make it start from 0? 2020-10-10T18:39:42Z alxplore_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T18:40:20Z phantomics: Rather than writing something like (let ((xcount (1- xcount)) ...) inside the loop 2020-10-10T18:41:54Z Xach: phantomics: i'd like to help but don't really understand the question, sorry. what do you expect back from something like (loop :for x :in nil ...)? 2020-10-10T18:42:06Z Xach: or (loop :for x :in '(42) ...)? 2020-10-10T18:42:29Z phantomics: I want the xcount variable to start from 0 instead of 1 2020-10-10T18:42:57Z mseddon: phantomics: loop from? 2020-10-10T18:42:57Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-10-10T18:43:03Z Bourne joined #lisp 2020-10-10T18:43:40Z Xach: phantomics: that doesn't help me understand - what do you expect from my examples? 2020-10-10T18:43:42Z phantomics: Loop from works, but then if I want to loop over a list I have to use the :for variable to index from the list 2020-10-10T18:43:52Z mseddon: oh, right sorry. I get it, you want to :counting into xcount, but with xcount = 1 at the start of the loop? 2020-10-10T18:44:04Z phantomics: With xcount = 0 at the start of the loop 2020-10-10T18:44:43Z Xach: phantomics: what does the full loop form look like? you can have multiple independent iterations going 2020-10-10T18:44:52Z phantomics: Xach: what I'm asking is if there's a way to have a loop over a list or array, while counting into a variable that starts from 0 instead of 1 2020-10-10T18:45:26Z jackdaniel: i.e if there are five elements, to return four? 2020-10-10T18:45:29Z Xach: phantomics: right - that's not clear enough for me. i guess i will stop trying to understand. good luck! 2020-10-10T18:45:29Z pve: phantomics: does it really start from 1? 2020-10-10T18:45:51Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-10T18:46:00Z mseddon: yeah the starting from 1 shouldn't happen.... xcount WILL start from 0. 2020-10-10T18:46:21Z mseddon: and for whatever reason, can't you subtract 1 at the end to fix it? :D 2020-10-10T18:46:23Z phoe: I usually do (loop for i from 0 for x in ...) 2020-10-10T18:46:27Z phoe: if that is what you want 2020-10-10T18:46:28Z phantomics: Here's a simple example: (loop :for x :across array1 :counting x :into acount :do (setf (aref array2 (1- acount)) x)) 2020-10-10T18:47:12Z phantomics: See how I need to subtract 1 from the acount in order to assign the element in the array I'm looping over to the corresponding position in the other array 2020-10-10T18:47:39Z jackdaniel: phantomics: (loop for x across array for ref from 1 do (setf (aref array2 ref) whatever)) 2020-10-10T18:47:49Z jackdaniel: counting is meant for something else 2020-10-10T18:47:55Z phantomics: phoe, that works, thanks 2020-10-10T18:48:05Z jackdaniel: s/from 1/from 0/ 2020-10-10T18:48:19Z jackdaniel: ah, I've repeated what phoe said above 2020-10-10T18:48:22Z jackdaniel: nvm me then 2020-10-10T18:48:40Z phantomics: I'd forgotten I could loop starting from a number with no end point and also loop over another finite structure 2020-10-10T18:49:17Z phantomics: Appreciate it 2020-10-10T18:49:31Z mseddon: don't loop. iterate! 2020-10-10T18:50:02Z mseddon: loop is a magnificent non-extensible arcane mess. 2020-10-10T18:50:58Z pve: phantomics: but still, :counting did not do what you think it did.. i.e. what you were trying to do cannot be done with :counting 2020-10-10T18:51:13Z pve: if I understood you correctly 2020-10-10T18:51:26Z mseddon: yeah. It can't. 2020-10-10T18:51:36Z mseddon: wrong random loop keyword for the job. 2020-10-10T18:52:17Z mseddon: phantomics: https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/ 2020-10-10T18:52:36Z phantomics: I've seen iterate, thought it wasn't maintained anymore 2020-10-10T18:52:56Z mseddon: It hasn't been touched since like 1994 or something 2020-10-10T18:53:02Z mseddon: doesn't need to be. you can extend it. 2020-10-10T18:53:03Z pve: or, I guess if every x is non-nil, then it would actually work, but require the -1 2020-10-10T18:53:22Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-10T18:53:27Z phantomics: Yeah, that was the problem, having to subtract 1 2020-10-10T18:53:30Z mseddon: like a lot of lisp libraries, it just.. stopped getting bug reports, so it's stable now 2020-10-10T18:55:23Z mseddon: but people still use it. if the users of that lib had an issue they'd get together, resurrect it, and fix it. 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concerning 2020-10-10T22:30:27Z aeth: there's always room for optimizations, unless the extensibility prevents optimizations 2020-10-10T22:34:51Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-10T22:36:13Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-10T22:37:01Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-10T22:44:40Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-10T22:54:52Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T22:55:05Z Inline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T23:01:12Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-10T23:04:59Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T23:07:15Z jibanes joined #lisp 2020-10-10T23:09:17Z joast quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-10T23:17:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-10T23:22:57Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-10T23:30:05Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-10T23:33:36Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-10T23:33:52Z rixard quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-10T23:34:55Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-10T23:36:20Z 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(determining whether they have the same content) I could use with-open-file and then compare the read-byte but there may be a better way 2020-10-11T13:28:29Z beach: Either way, you need to access each byte. 2020-10-11T13:28:29Z Xach: pxpxp: that way is fine. it is probably faster to use read-sequence to read more at a time. 2020-10-11T13:29:27Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-11T13:30:20Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-10-11T13:32:05Z ebrasca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-11T13:32:51Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-11T13:34:07Z Xach: i wonder if there is an opportunity to do MISMATCH on multiple octets at a time if the vectors are known to be octet vectors. 2020-10-11T13:34:16Z Xach: word-at-a-time or more 2020-10-11T13:34:49Z phoe: non-standard functionality ahead: if the files are large, I'd mmap them both and then compare raw memory 2020-10-11T13:35:07Z phoe: but I'd actually need to benchmark to tell you if this option is going to be faster than read-sequence with a buffer 2020-10-11T13:35:57Z Xach: you also have to decide if the greater complexity is worth it 2020-10-11T13:36:07Z phoe: yes 2020-10-11T13:36:30Z Xach: it can be pretty fine to just do it a byte at a time with read-byte 2020-10-11T13:36:41Z Xach: that's pretty simple and might be fast enough for your case 2020-10-11T13:38:39Z pxpxp: thanks! But anyway there's no built-in function to compare streams, like (equal list1 list2) but for streams, right? I was hoping for something like this 2020-10-11T13:39:07Z beach: What if the stream is infinite? 2020-10-11T13:39:29Z Xach: pxpxp: not built-in 2020-10-11T13:40:52Z pxpxp: okay I understand now. So I'll go with WITH-OPEN-FILE and READ-BYTE, and then if it's too slow I'll try to first use READ-SEQUENCE 2020-10-11T13:41:13Z Xach: i think that's a sensible way to go 2020-10-11T13:47:01Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-11T13:49:25Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-11T13:52:11Z _death: it would be easy with my marray library 2020-10-11T13:54:15Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T13:56:17Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-11T13:56:19Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:01:37Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-11T14:01:55Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:03:01Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-11T14:03:48Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:04:24Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:05:25Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T14:05:30Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:06:28Z phantomics quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T14:07:27Z kapil_ joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:08:30Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:09:11Z wbooze joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:10:24Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:12:42Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:13:45Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-11T14:13:51Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:13:51Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-10-11T14:13:51Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:13:54Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:23:54Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-11T14:26:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:26:17Z kapil_ joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:26:34Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:29:07Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-11T14:29:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:33:40Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:34:52Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:36:56Z MrtnDk[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:36:56Z kinope quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:36:57Z ThaEwat quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:37:18Z MrtnDk[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:37:18Z kinope joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:38:49Z Dmytro[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z santiagopim[m]1 quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z goldrin1227[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z eriix[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z pcgme[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z kelamir[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z Gnuxie[m] quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z abbe quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z mjl quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z tfb quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z mgsk quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z conjunctive quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z diamondbond quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z gingerale quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z larme quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z parisienne quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:38:50Z thonkpod quit (*.net *.split) 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z Dmytro[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z santiagopim[m]1 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z goldrin1227[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z pcgme[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z kelamir[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z eriix[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z abbe joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z mjl joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z tfb joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z mgsk joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z conjunctive joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z diamondbond joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z gingerale joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z larme joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z parisienne joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:10Z thonkpod joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:39:46Z Codaraxis_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-11T14:40:33Z cairn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:40:38Z Dmytro[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:40:39Z santiagopim[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:40:39Z goldrin1227[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:40:39Z pcgme[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:40:39Z kelamir[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:40:39Z Gnuxie[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:41:09Z eriix[m] quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:41:22Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-11T14:41:22Z xzax_[m]1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:41:41Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:41:57Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-11T14:45:41Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:45:58Z cairn joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:46:01Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:47:42Z goldrin1227[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:47:42Z santiagopim[m]1 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:48:03Z Dmytro[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:48:56Z Gnuxie[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:49:11Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:49:18Z eriix[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:50:01Z asarch: What can you do when there is no CC at hand and you still need some packages? 2020-10-11T14:50:24Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-11T14:50:34Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:52:00Z xzax_[m]1 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:53:47Z phoe: CC? what do you mean? 2020-10-11T14:53:51Z phoe: what kind of packages? 2020-10-11T14:54:33Z ThaEwat joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:54:34Z kelamir[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:54:36Z pcgme[m] joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:55:39Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-11T14:55:47Z asarch: Well, I was trying to get Caveman2 on an Android phone with Cl-REPL 2020-10-11T14:55:48Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:56:30Z asarch: And, at some point of the installation, (ql:quickload :caveman2) couldn't not complete the task because the absence of a C compiler 2020-10-11T14:56:32Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-10-11T14:57:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-11T14:57:06Z asarch: And, I was wondering if you know a hack in such as cases 2020-10-11T14:57:24Z phoe: you might need to compile your own cl-repl while including all the foreign libraries that caveman2 depends on 2020-10-11T14:57:30Z phoe: I don't know of any other option 2020-10-11T14:57:43Z asarch: Oh :-( 2020-10-11T14:58:26Z asarch: I also was thinking about cross-compiling but... 2020-10-11T15:00:09Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-11T15:00:10Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-11T15:01:26Z jackdaniel: asarch: type in the repl (ext:install-bytecodes-compiler) 2020-10-11T15:01:33Z jackdaniel: and then, try quickloading caveman 2020-10-11T15:01:54Z asarch: Ok, let me check it out... 2020-10-11T15:01:57Z phoe: jackdaniel: TIL! what kind of C compiler does it use? 2020-10-11T15:02:13Z jackdaniel: none 2020-10-11T15:02:14Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T15:02:28Z phoe: ...wait a second 2020-10-11T15:02:31Z jackdaniel: ECL runtime environment works with both bytecompiled and natively compiled code 2020-10-11T15:02:37Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:02:41Z phoe: yes, but the original question was about a CC 2020-10-11T15:02:45Z phoe: which I understood to mean a C compiler 2020-10-11T15:03:05Z jackdaniel: well, I assume that the problem was that ecl compiler could not compile things 2020-10-11T15:03:15Z phoe: OK - let's see 2020-10-11T15:03:25Z jackdaniel: that said -- no idea. that gives me nice idea for extension 2020-10-11T15:04:01Z jackdaniel: compile tcc and bundle it with ecl, so it is possible to invoke (compile-c-file …) from repl 2020-10-11T15:04:05Z aaaaaa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-11T15:04:24Z jackdaniel: volunteer implementers welcome 2020-10-11T15:05:12Z kapil_ joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:06:59Z Bourne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-11T15:08:54Z asarch: That would be great! 2020-10-11T15:09:22Z jackdaniel: a cool hack for certain; it is arguable whether it would be very practical or a good use of time 2020-10-11T15:09:28Z jackdaniel: still, a cool hack regardless 2020-10-11T15:11:07Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T15:11:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:12:21Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:15:34Z mseddon: jackdaniel: heh, yeah that's actually pretty cool. I mean, Quake 3 effectively shipped with lcc, which is a similar tiny c compiler. 2020-10-11T15:18:29Z mseddon: Carmack later discovered lisp and repented in a talk I remember. 2020-10-11T15:25:47Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T15:26:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:27:52Z manicennui: Believe it was Racket. 2020-10-11T15:27:52Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T15:28:24Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:29:08Z jackdaniel: I remember Quake 3, it was a fun game 2020-10-11T15:33:19Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:34:41Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:34:41Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T15:35:16Z treflip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-11T15:35:51Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:36:58Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:36:58Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T15:37:56Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:38:03Z mseddon: manicennui: yes, that's right. 2020-10-11T15:39:13Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:39:38Z mseddon: jackdaniel: yeah, it was one of their better ones. The engines were the real money maker at iD, the games were sometimes not great. 2020-10-11T15:40:09Z mseddon: but. I dig the off-topic bell at myself at this point. 2020-10-11T15:40:20Z mseddon: ring* 2020-10-11T15:43:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-11T15:43:49Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-11T15:44:11Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:44:38Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-11T15:44:48Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:45:03Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-11T15:45:39Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:47:05Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T15:48:01Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:50:28Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T15:50:59Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:51:58Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:52:35Z aaaaaa joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:52:35Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T15:53:27Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T15:55:33Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T15:56:20Z amb007 joined #lisp 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2020-10-11T16:50:57Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-10-11T16:50:57Z vaporatorius quit (Changing host) 2020-10-11T16:50:57Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2020-10-11T16:52:29Z phantomics joined #lisp 2020-10-11T16:57:55Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:04:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:05:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-11T17:05:30Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:08:00Z diip joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:09:01Z arpunk joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:14:32Z treflip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-11T17:19:18Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:20:15Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:22:17Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:22:26Z diip: Hei 2020-10-11T17:22:41Z diip: I am having a strange problem on ecl... 2020-10-11T17:23:21Z diip: when I use (abort) on the terminal repl, I get "Restart ABORT is not active" 2020-10-11T17:23:31Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-11T17:23:31Z diip: but it works on the sly repl in Emacs 2020-10-11T17:23:48Z diip: and in compiled code 2020-10-11T17:23:53Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:23:58Z diip: is this suppoesed to happen? 2020-10-11T17:24:16Z phoe: you mean the REPL that pops up when you execute the ecl unix binary? 2020-10-11T17:24:49Z afidegnum quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-11T17:24:52Z Bike: (abort) calls the abort restart. the ecl built in repl may not establish an abort restart while sly's repl does. 2020-10-11T17:25:21Z phoe: sly for sure establishes some sort of ABORT restart 2020-10-11T17:25:30Z phoe: ECL alone might not 2020-10-11T17:25:46Z Bike: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecl/-/blob/develop/src/lsp/top.lsp yeah, i don't see it. 2020-10-11T17:25:51Z phoe: "Implementors are encouraged to make sure that there is always a restart named abort around any user code so that user code can call abort at any time and expect something reasonable to happen; exactly what the reasonable thing is may vary somewhat." 2020-10-11T17:25:56Z phoe: that is from CLHS Restart ABORT 2020-10-11T17:26:04Z Bike: oh, really? did not know that 2020-10-11T17:26:18Z phoe: I played with that a little bit when I was doing my condition work 2020-10-11T17:26:43Z diip: isn't sly using the ecl repl? 2020-10-11T17:26:44Z afidegnum joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:26:51Z phoe: nope, it has its own REPL implementation 2020-10-11T17:27:22Z Bike: in clasp for a while we had new threads not have any restarts, which gets weird with slime 2020-10-11T17:27:29Z Bike: i don't think i named the default restart abort, tho 2020-10-11T17:27:55Z diip: I am a bit confused here, so sly is a common lisp repl written in Emacs lisp? 2020-10-11T17:28:03Z phoe: diip: yes 2020-10-11T17:28:14Z phoe: it also has a Common Lisp server named slynk that sly connects to 2020-10-11T17:28:33Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-11T17:28:40Z phoe: the sly repl is independent of REPLs used by individual implementations, so, SBCL, CCL, ECL, etc. 2020-10-11T17:30:12Z phoe: diip: anyway, #ecl might be a good place to follow-up on this issue 2020-10-11T17:30:22Z diip: aha, a lot makes sense now thanks 2020-10-11T17:30:37Z diip: I will and maybe on their gitlab as well? 2020-10-11T17:30:55Z phoe: sure 2020-10-11T17:31:31Z diip: thanks, now I need to look at the sly code as well :-) 2020-10-11T17:31:31Z diip: 2020-10-11T17:32:14Z diip: so I guess sly can be used without any implementation installed on the pc 2020-10-11T17:32:19Z phoe: what 2020-10-11T17:32:21Z phoe: no 2020-10-11T17:32:28Z phoe: sly needs to have a CL implementation to run slynk on 2020-10-11T17:32:42Z phoe: sly is the client, slynk is the server 2020-10-11T17:33:00Z phoe: the only thing that is interesting is that the slynk server needs not be locally on the PC - the communication can happen over a network 2020-10-11T17:33:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:33:16Z phoe: but having a slynk server running *somewhere* is required for sly to open up its REPL 2020-10-11T17:33:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-11T17:33:58Z diip: but the repl doesn't actually use the common lisp implimentation? 2020-10-11T17:34:05Z phoe: the repl runs on elisp 2020-10-11T17:34:16Z Bike: the repl uses the implementation. it doesn't use the implementation's repl. 2020-10-11T17:34:24Z phoe: or rather 2020-10-11T17:34:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-11T17:34:38Z Bike: the server uses the implementation 2020-10-11T17:34:47Z Bike: right. 2020-10-11T17:34:48Z Bike: it can call eval and compile and stuff itself, you know? 2020-10-11T17:34:55Z phoe: the stuff that you see in emacs runs on elisp, and it works by sending/receiving data from slynk, running on a CL implementation. 2020-10-11T17:35:18Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:35:34Z diip: is this in the sly documentation or will it be better to read the slime documentation? 2020-10-11T17:36:02Z phoe: this might or might not be described in the slime/sly documentation 2020-10-11T17:36:13Z phoe: it is just the overall architecture of it 2020-10-11T17:36:41Z diip: so what is the implimentation used for? (if it has its own abort etc) 2020-10-11T17:36:48Z phoe: uh 2020-10-11T17:36:52Z Bike: um, everything? 2020-10-11T17:36:52Z phoe: for running Common Lisp? 2020-10-11T17:37:06Z phoe: you use the sly REPL for writing Common Lisp, don't you? 2020-10-11T17:37:06Z Bike: the server is common lisp code running in a common lisp implementation. 2020-10-11T17:37:22Z diip: sorry I guess I am being a bit slow.... 2020-10-11T17:37:30Z Bike: Okay, so like, you write a line in your repl. 2020-10-11T17:37:42Z Bike: The repl sends the line to the server code. The server calls cl:eval or whatever on it. 2020-10-11T17:37:56Z Bike: results are computed and they're sent back to the repl for display. 2020-10-11T17:38:07Z Bike: the implementation is more than a repl. 2020-10-11T17:38:12Z Bike: you seem to be conflating them? 2020-10-11T17:38:40Z diip: but so how does abort work on sly? does it establish the "restart" on startup (sorry I am newish to common lisp) 2020-10-11T17:39:20Z Bike: it uses restart-case or with-simple-restart, probably. 2020-10-11T17:39:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-11T17:39:57Z diip: restart-case of ecl to establish its own abort? 2020-10-11T17:40:02Z Bike: like - you can write your own repl. (loop (print (eval (read)))). You can throw more stuff in there, do like (loop (print (restart-case ...))) 2020-10-11T17:40:15Z phoe: everyone can establish their own restart 2020-10-11T17:40:37Z diip: yes i seem to have been conflating the implementation and the repl 2020-10-11T17:40:54Z phoe: (restart-case (invoke-restart 'my-restart) (my-restart () (print "hahaha") 42)) 2020-10-11T17:41:22Z phoe: here I establish a brand new restart that, upon invocation, transfers control outside the invoking form, prints a string and returns 42 2020-10-11T17:41:32Z phoe: I could also establish an ABORT restart 2020-10-11T17:41:51Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-11T17:42:10Z phoe: and evaluate the command that came from sly in an environment where that restart is in effect 2020-10-11T17:42:16Z phoe: that is what slime/slynk do. 2020-10-11T17:42:20Z mseddon: diip: yeah, you have to forget everything you know about exception handling, lisp does it far differently, and better. 2020-10-11T17:42:33Z diip: so I can write my own abort and put it in the eclrc? 2020-10-11T17:42:42Z Bike: the eclrc is not related. 2020-10-11T17:42:58Z phoe: you'd need to write your own abort and put it inside the ECL repl 2020-10-11T17:42:59Z Bike: you're not getting it. the sly repl is code running somewhere. a function definition. 2020-10-11T17:43:00Z diip: mseddon: that will be easy, I don't know anything. 2020-10-11T17:43:05Z Bike: it just has restart-case or something in there 2020-10-11T17:43:09Z phoe: which might mean rebuilding ECL. 2020-10-11T17:43:42Z phoe: ECL has a RESTART-TOPLEVEL restart 2020-10-11T17:44:22Z phoe: which is not named ABORT, even though it possibly could, since in theory it does what an ABORT restart would reasonably do in such a situation 2020-10-11T17:44:38Z Bike: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/master/slynk/slynk.lisp#L1069-L1080 here's the sly macro that establishes an abort restart. you can see it used just below in handle-requests. 2020-10-11T17:44:48Z diip: yes, but if I put something like "my-restart" above and put it in the eclrc, wouldn't that soulve my abort problem in the repl? 2020-10-11T17:45:08Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-11T17:45:11Z phoe: nope 2020-10-11T17:45:28Z phoe: you'd need to RESTART-CASE every form you type in the REPL 2020-10-11T17:45:54Z phoe: this is because restarts are established like (restart-case (foo) (my-restart ...)) 2020-10-11T17:46:00Z phoe: (foo) is your code 2020-10-11T17:46:02Z Bike: what you can do with restarts is establish them AROUND code. there's no function to just add a "top level" restart that you could use in an rc file. 2020-10-11T17:46:10Z phoe: or, in other words, they're established dynamically 2020-10-11T17:46:52Z Bike: you can see in sly's code here that process-requests, which is what does evaluation and everything else, is called within the extent of the with-top-level-restart. 2020-10-11T17:47:48Z phoe: I can think of a hack that you could use 2020-10-11T17:48:11Z Bike: what do you want the abort restart do do, diip? 2020-10-11T17:48:11Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2078#2078 2020-10-11T17:48:24Z diip: so I could use it around the function that I load into the repl and it won't break when I run the code? 2020-10-11T17:48:48Z phoe: in your eclrc, you could place (loop (restart-case (si:top-level t) (abort () :report "Abort execution."))) which would effectively subvert the main ECL toplevel with a new toplevel that has the ABORT restart established 2020-10-11T17:48:59Z Bike: i mean, you can do (restart-case (my-function) (abort ...)) if that's what you mean 2020-10-11T17:49:18Z diip: Bike: I am writing an error* code in a file that I want to load into the repl to test 2020-10-11T17:49:47Z diip: but it breaks the code rather than simply aborting (which is what I want) 2020-10-11T17:50:03Z Bike: what i mean is that an "abort" can mean different things in different contexts. in a sly repl it will return to the repl. outside of a repl it might quit the program. 2020-10-11T17:50:25Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-11T17:50:28Z diip: Bike: yes that restart case function will work (I hope) 2020-10-11T17:50:45Z phoe: simply aborting, what do you mean? 2020-10-11T17:50:48Z phoe: do you want to quit ECL? 2020-10-11T17:51:38Z diip: outside the repl, it should quit the program but whin testing in the repl I just want it to go back to the top-level without any error code (other than what is in my own error*) 2020-10-11T17:52:57Z phoe: this sounds like a case for what --disable-debugger does in SBCL 2020-10-11T17:53:07Z phoe: I don't know if ECL has a switch like that 2020-10-11T17:53:09Z diip: phoe: interesting, thanks maybe but I will try the simplest way first 2020-10-11T17:53:25Z diip: never used sbcl much 2020-10-11T17:53:51Z diip: phoe: I meant about creating my own top-level 2020-10-11T17:54:36Z diip: all I need for now is for the code to go back to top-level during testing, thanks 2020-10-11T17:55:31Z diip: *shakes head* I have a lot to learn 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emys quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-11T20:50:26Z Bike: adding to the end of an existing list is sort of a different operation 2020-10-11T20:50:39Z Bike: seems like you could maybe do it with accumulate if you don't want to write your own clause 2020-10-11T20:51:02Z remexre: okay, I'll take a look at that; thanks 2020-10-11T20:53:45Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-11T20:59:45Z phoe: (push thing out) 2020-10-11T20:59:57Z phoe: and then nreverse the result 2020-10-11T21:02:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-11T21:08:25Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-11T21:09:57Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-11T21:10:32Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-11T21:12:05Z alxplore_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-11T21:12:35Z alxplore_ joined #lisp 2020-10-11T21:14:45Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-11T21:15:58Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-11T21:21:38Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-10-11T21:23:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 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timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-12T02:30:49Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T02:38:32Z refpga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-12T02:41:05Z pillton joined #lisp 2020-10-12T02:41:41Z Fare joined #lisp 2020-10-12T02:42:25Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-12T02:43:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T02:44:15Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T02:44:18Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-12T02:48:00Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T02:54:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T02:54:35Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-12T02:59:28Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-12T03:06:54Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-10-12T03:08:04Z pillton: Good morning beach. 2020-10-12T03:10:27Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-12T03:10:57Z beach: Wow, long time no see. What have you been up to? 2020-10-12T03:10:59Z dbotton quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out) 2020-10-12T03:11:16Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-12T03:13:16Z sword865 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T03:14:28Z pillton: Yeah. It has been a long time. Kids and work have been keeping me pretty busy. I still manage to keep doing some CL. You have to stay sane somehow. 2020-10-12T03:14:45Z beach: I see, yes. 2020-10-12T03:16:04Z pillton: How are you? 2020-10-12T03:16:49Z beach: Very busy with SICL. I recently came up with a better way of doing bootstrapping, so I am implementing that now. 2020-10-12T03:17:14Z pillton: A better way? The last I remember is that you had come up with a good way to do that. 2020-10-12T03:18:12Z beach: I had a way, and it works, but it was messy, and it required me to adapt some production code, resulting in it being not as idiomatic as I would have wanted. 2020-10-12T03:19:57Z moon-child: ooh, what's the new way? 2020-10-12T03:20:13Z pillton: I look forward to the paper. 2020-10-12T03:21:07Z beach: moon-child: To the untrained eye, they look the same, and an explanation from me right now would make no sense to anybody but perhaps the few people who work directly on SICL. 2020-10-12T03:21:35Z beach: pillton: I still have no idea how to explain all this in an 8-page paper. 2020-10-12T03:22:34Z pillton: beach: You will figure it out. Clarity of presentation will emerge during implementation. 2020-10-12T03:22:55Z beach: I hope so, but it has been a while and I still see no way. 2020-10-12T03:23:32Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-12T03:23:55Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-12T03:24:01Z sleepingisfun joined #lisp 2020-10-12T03:28:55Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-12T03:34:45Z sts-q quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-12T03:38:33Z isBEKaml quit 2020-10-12T03:40:33Z igemnace joined #lisp 2020-10-12T03:40:42Z aindilis joined #lisp 2020-10-12T03:45:13Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T03:47:41Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2020-10-12T03:47:48Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-12T03:54:48Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-12T03:58:53Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-12T04:03:01Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-12T04:11:52Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-12T04:16:38Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T04:17:06Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T04:18:08Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-12T04:18:38Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-12T04:18:57Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-12T04:22:45Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-12T04:25:56Z aaaaaa joined #lisp 2020-10-12T04:28:19Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T04:28:46Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-12T04:34:19Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2020-10-12T04:34:29Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-12T04:37:18Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-12T04:38:18Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T04:38:26Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-12T04:38:29Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T04:38:54Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-12T04:39:45Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-10-12T04:41:09Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2020-10-12T04:42:48Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-12T04:46:44Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-10-12T04:58:46Z Nilby joined #lisp 2020-10-12T04:59:03Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T05:00:47Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-12T05:03:12Z earl-ducaine quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 2020-10-12T05:03:45Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-12T05:09:37Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:14:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:19:32Z PuercoPop quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1) 2020-10-12T05:20:25Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-12T05:21:47Z yoja joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:29:36Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T05:29:53Z beach` joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:30:09Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:31:11Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:31:11Z saganman quit (Changing host) 2020-10-12T05:31:11Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:34:15Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T05:34:19Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-12T05:35:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:38:30Z lottaquestions quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-12T05:39:04Z lottaquestions_ joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:39:57Z beach` is now known as beach 2020-10-12T05:44:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T05:44:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:46:40Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T05:47:10Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:51:58Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:51:59Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-12T05:56:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T05:56:51Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:05:51Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:06:24Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:10:38Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-12T06:11:24Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-12T06:14:16Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-10-12T06:15:54Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-12T06:22:48Z rogersm joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:23:50Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-12T06:24:37Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:37:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T06:38:48Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:38:48Z saganman quit (Changing host) 2020-10-12T06:38:48Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:39:29Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T06:39:56Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:40:19Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:45:57Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:47:03Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T06:47:32Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:50:24Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T06:50:37Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:51:54Z ex_nihilo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-12T06:52:02Z cjv joined #lisp 2020-10-12T06:59:12Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:00:24Z flip214: beach: perhaps you should try to explain it to somebody - that might help clarify your thoughts. Do you have a puppet? Or you could tell me and perhaps I can ask a few good questions.? 2020-10-12T07:00:24Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:01:16Z beach: That's a nice offer. Thanks. 2020-10-12T07:01:29Z beach: I think I can do it but not in 8 pages. 2020-10-12T07:02:49Z beach: Either way, I am going to wait until I am sure that this new technique works as I hope it will. 2020-10-12T07:03:48Z rogersm quit 2020-10-12T07:04:06Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T07:04:15Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:05:31Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-12T07:06:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T07:07:18Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:10:47Z flip214: Goodie! 2020-10-12T07:12:28Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T07:13:33Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:14:56Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T07:15:49Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-12T07:16:00Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-12T07:17:04Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-10-12T07:18:14Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:21:02Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T07:21:13Z sts-q quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-12T07:22:25Z asarch quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-12T07:22:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:24:47Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:25:28Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T07:25:35Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:30:26Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:33:50Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:37:26Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:37:41Z pve joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:39:08Z iissaacc: generic functions are such a cool way of doing OO 2020-10-12T07:39:41Z iissaacc: the more common lisp i do the more i enjoy it 2020-10-12T07:39:50Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T07:39:58Z beach: Great! 2020-10-12T07:40:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T07:40:54Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:43:43Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-12T07:45:17Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:48:21Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:48:24Z beach: So, apparently, when Alan Kay invented the term object-oriented programming, he meant that objects should communicate as if they were on different computers connected by a network. He (apparently again) does not like the way that the term has been used for the class-based programming style that most so-called object-oriented languages support. 2020-10-12T07:49:01Z beach: Therefore, maybe we should call our style "generic-function-based programming". 2020-10-12T07:50:17Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, the big deal to Kay is messaging. 2020-10-12T07:51:33Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:51:59Z no-defun-allowed: However, in his 1997 OOPSLA presentation he said The Art of the Meta-Object Protocol was the best book anyone's written in ten years (except that it was hard to understand if you didn't get Lisp, but it's a Lisp book...), but that was some time ago. 2020-10-12T07:53:21Z beach: Oh, Kay said that? 2020-10-12T07:53:33Z beach: Interesting! 2020-10-12T07:54:36Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-12T07:55:39Z beach: It is not easy to understand even for Lispers. I had two attempts that I abandoned. 2020-10-12T07:56:24Z no-defun-allowed: See around https://youtu.be/oKg1hTOQXoY?t=3239 2020-10-12T07:57:00Z beach: Nice. Thanks! 2020-10-12T07:57:58Z no-defun-allowed: While searching for that, the two analogies Kay likes came up rapidly: he likens objects to biological cells (you can't poke things into them), and small servers ("every object should have an IP address"). 2020-10-12T07:58:48Z beach: Yes, he is trained as a biologist I think. 2020-10-12T07:59:21Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-12T08:01:10Z no-defun-allowed: Huh, didn't know that before. 2020-10-12T08:03:51Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-10-12T08:09:24Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T08:11:23Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-12T08:18:54Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-12T08:27:08Z colluphid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-12T08:28:21Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-12T08:28:23Z VincentVega joined #lisp 2020-10-12T08:28:50Z colluphid joined #lisp 2020-10-12T08:32:06Z vaporatorius__ joined #lisp 2020-10-12T08:32:12Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-12T08:37:55Z yoja quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-12T08:42:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T08:43:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T08:47:18Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T08:47:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T08:48:18Z yoja joined #lisp 2020-10-12T08:51:19Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-12T08:52:46Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2020-10-12T08:53:46Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-12T08:56:50Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T08:57:06Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T08:57:27Z aartaka_d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-12T08:58:36Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T08:58:58Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:05:16Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:06:55Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:07:09Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:10:16Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-12T09:11:54Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-10-12T09:13:11Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T09:13:27Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:18:05Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T09:18:19Z supercoven joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:19:09Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-12T09:19:16Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-12T09:20:19Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:25:36Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-12T09:30:10Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:30:11Z supercoven joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:34:25Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-12T09:35:14Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:39:55Z supercoven quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T09:40:03Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:43:14Z frost-lab quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-12T09:43:19Z supercoven joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:45:14Z yoja quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-12T09:46:41Z notzmv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T09:46:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T09:47:29Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:48:45Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:49:24Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-12T09:49:37Z VincentVega: Is it possibly to require/load a library/file thread-locally? It looks like one can have thread-local function definitions https://pastebin.com/WSCcaT5V so that's a start. Using something like https://pastebin.com/AJGi7Mve which uses load or require (with different packages in the cl-user namespace) fails though. 2020-10-12T09:49:44Z VincentVega: Why: I want to be able to have multiple threads each running its own graphical library (e.g. thread1: sdl, thread2: webgl). I have some code that defines drawing primitives over those libraries (e.g. draw-rectangle, draw-circle). Then there's the high-level (library-agnostic) code which uses those primitives to draw stuff. So if I manage to have 2020-10-12T09:49:45Z VincentVega: thread-local definitions for primitives, the high-level code never has to deal with the fact that there are multiple libraries (in the high-level code I want to literally say: (draw-rectangle rect) without ever mentioning the specific library). 2020-10-12T09:50:48Z phoe: thread-local function definitions? 2020-10-12T09:50:55Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:50:56Z phoe: no, they are going to clash with one another 2020-10-12T09:51:15Z VincentVega: thread-local functions I mean 2020-10-12T09:51:17Z phoe: DEFUN defines functions in the global environment and these are not thread-local 2020-10-12T09:51:27Z flip214: VincentVega: you could create new packages and use them per-thread 2020-10-12T09:51:32Z phoe: ^ 2020-10-12T09:51:32Z supercoven quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-12T09:51:36Z jackdaniel: phoe: clostrum is a protocol to have multiple global environments, but it is not adopted by any CL implementation 2020-10-12T09:51:49Z supercoven joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:51:53Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T09:52:01Z phoe: jackdaniel: I'm aware of that and I assume that VincentVega uses an implementation with a single global environment 2020-10-12T09:52:04Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:52:09Z jackdaniel: another way is to have i.e draw-rectangle be defined like this: (defun draw-rectangle (x1 y1 x2 y2) (funcall *draw-rectangle* x1 y1 x2 y2)) 2020-10-12T09:52:22Z jackdaniel: and bind functions per-thread to *draw-rectangle* (in this examlpe) 2020-10-12T09:52:33Z jackdaniel: because dynamic bindings *are* (usually) thread local 2020-10-12T09:52:48Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T09:52:48Z jonatack quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T09:52:59Z VincentVega: phoe: interesting, ok 2020-10-12T09:53:01Z jackdaniel: phoe: I'm aware of that, but clostrum is a direct approach to the very problam VincentVega describes, so it is worth mentioning, that it has been at least recognized 2020-10-12T09:53:12Z phoe: jackdaniel: OK, understood 2020-10-12T09:53:18Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:53:20Z jackdaniel: and since it has been recognized and it is not implemented in any cl implementation, then there is no "other" standard direct approach 2020-10-12T09:54:06Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:54:06Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T09:54:12Z jackdaniel: I think that the approach with functions bound dynamically per-thread sounds as the closest approximation 2020-10-12T09:54:25Z VincentVega: flip214: so if I define a new package, how do I load it in the thread? I tried require and that didn't pan out (I can upload some code if needed) 2020-10-12T09:54:27Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:55:06Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T09:55:12Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:55:33Z phoe: you don't load packages per-thread, you don't even load packages whatsoever 2020-10-12T09:55:35Z beach: VincentVega: Typically (asdf:load-system ) [I am guessing you mean "system" rather than "package"] 2020-10-12T09:55:41Z phoe: packages, once they're defined, just exist 2020-10-12T09:55:57Z phoe: there's an unfortunately named http://index-of.es/Programming/Lisp/Lisp%20Mess/Erann%20Gat%20-%20Idiots%20Guide%20To%20Lisp%20Packages.pdf that you might want to read 2020-10-12T09:55:59Z pve: are threads necessary in achieving this abstraction? 2020-10-12T09:56:05Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-12T09:56:09Z phoe: packages have nothing to do with threads 2020-10-12T09:56:29Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: that's a valid approach I guess, hmmm. i'll check out clostrum 2020-10-12T09:56:41Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: I'm not suggesting using clostrum 2020-10-12T09:56:50Z vkikt_000 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T09:56:52Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think threads are necessary. 2020-10-12T09:56:53Z jackdaniel: as I've said, it is not supported by common lisp implementations as of today 2020-10-12T09:57:15Z jackdaniel: I'll paste a code in a minute that will illustrate a per-thread approach you arguably want 2020-10-12T09:57:26Z VincentVega: phoe: thanks I'll read it 2020-10-12T09:57:35Z no-defun-allowed: One could have a special variable *backend*, and then have (draw-rectangle ...) trampoline to (draw-rectangle-on-backend *backend ...) 2020-10-12T09:57:36Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: ok 2020-10-12T09:58:39Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-12T09:58:44Z no-defun-allowed: Now one can change backend by re-binding (or changing the value of the current binding of) *backend*; so threads aren't really needed to achieve that. 2020-10-12T09:59:39Z VincentVega: phoe: well, before I read that, ok, I define a package, but I don't get how to "use it per thread" as suggested by flip214 2020-10-12T09:59:42Z no-defun-allowed: Then you would write methods for draw-rectangle-on-backend like (defmethod draw-rectangle-on-backend ((backend sdl-backend) ...) ...) 2020-10-12T09:59:47Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-12T10:00:29Z no-defun-allowed: I think packages are also not quite right for this abstraction. You probably want to have a backend stored in some variable, and then dispatch on the backend type. 2020-10-12T10:00:43Z flip214: VincentVega: you'd need to use (funcall (find-symbol "function1" package) args...) 2020-10-12T10:01:35Z VincentVega: no-defun-allowed: I will be having threads anyway, so that's kind of a given, but I see the point with the global var, ok 2020-10-12T10:01:45Z flip214: TBH, libraries could use a good mechanism for per-thread GF dispatch - all that per-use configuration (encoding/decoding, eg. YAML, JSON, XML, ...) 2020-10-12T10:01:57Z VincentVega: flip214: oh i see 2020-10-12T10:02:06Z no-defun-allowed: pve asked if threads are necessary, and as you can just rebind dynamic variables, probably not. 2020-10-12T10:02:28Z VincentVega: no-defun-allowed: gotcha 2020-10-12T10:02:48Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T10:04:41Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/99a72ad4-xxx.lisp.txt 2020-10-12T10:05:46Z jackdaniel: the first approach is closest to what you have described, the second approach is better (and is basically what no-defun-allowed described) 2020-10-12T10:05:55Z beach: Definitely a kludge compared to Clostrum. :) 2020-10-12T10:06:00Z jackdaniel: sure 2020-10-12T10:06:08Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-12T10:08:09Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: all that said, having an explicit argument to functions like draw-rectangle would be arguably better 2020-10-12T10:08:20Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: great, thank you 2020-10-12T10:09:26Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: yeah, would probably be faster, but kind of ugly in the sense of verbosity and necessity 2020-10-12T10:09:43Z flip214: jackdaniel: OTOH, have all functions like DRAW-RECTANGLE call some hidden function which uses the special variable for dispatch.. 2020-10-12T10:09:54Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: if you have "explicit" medium you draw on, you could store in that instance many interesting things 2020-10-12T10:09:54Z flip214: then the dispatch wouldn't even be visible "on the frontend" 2020-10-12T10:09:57Z jackdaniel: i.e a color 2020-10-12T10:10:20Z jackdaniel: (instead of mutating global state of the backend you still need to access regardless) 2020-10-12T10:10:41Z jackdaniel: (setf (color medium) red) (draw-rectangle medium 1 1 9 9)) 2020-10-12T10:11:02Z jackdaniel: not to mention things like line style etc 2020-10-12T10:11:07Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: yeah, that sounds nice 2020-10-12T10:11:07Z jw4 quit (Quit: tot siens) 2020-10-12T10:11:24Z beach: In fact, I think with the AST evaluator, Clostrum could be used in any implementation. 2020-10-12T10:11:31Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T10:11:36Z beach: It is only a factor 3 or so slower than native code. 2020-10-12T10:11:41Z jackdaniel: (and you could have multiple mediums writing to the same "display server" with different options) 2020-10-12T10:12:31Z VincentVega: anyone has a link for clostrum? pretty ungooglable 2020-10-12T10:12:33Z jackdaniel: but I can't recommend you enough contributing to McCLIM, where all these things has been thought through - the only requiring work is implementation 2020-10-12T10:12:43Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Clostrum 2020-10-12T10:13:26Z jackdaniel: but as I said, it is not natively incorporated in any other implementation than sicl - you can load sicl on sbcl and go through that, however I'm not sure if that's what you really want 2020-10-12T10:13:38Z jackdaniel: (it may be incorporated in the future of course) 2020-10-12T10:14:07Z jackdaniel: s/only requiring/only thing that requires/ 2020-10-12T10:14:21Z beach: But maybe I should prepare a demo for the online Lisp meeting, showing how this can be done. 2020-10-12T10:14:33Z phoe: beach: as always, videos welcome~ 2020-10-12T10:14:40Z beach: Sure. 2020-10-12T10:14:59Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: oh, thanks for the link and the explanations. 2020-10-12T10:15:32Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: Yeah, well mcclim is kind of complex and seems abondoned. I was considering it at some point. 2020-10-12T10:15:50Z jackdaniel: abandoned? 2020-10-12T10:15:56Z jackdaniel is shocked 2020-10-12T10:15:57Z VincentVega: not actively developed? 2020-10-12T10:15:57Z aeth: I think it's un-abandoned now? 2020-10-12T10:15:57Z beach: VincentVega: Watch out what you are saying. 2020-10-12T10:16:02Z aeth: You might be looking at the wrong repo 2020-10-12T10:16:20Z VincentVega: wasn't gonna hurt anyones feelings 2020-10-12T10:16:26Z jackdaniel: no, it's not that 2020-10-12T10:16:46Z VincentVega: is it being developed these days then? 2020-10-12T10:16:48Z jackdaniel: it is just we have a few contributors and it is developed quite actively 2020-10-12T10:16:49Z beach: VincentVega: Well, jackdaniel is the main maintainer, and there is lots of good activity. 2020-10-12T10:16:56Z VincentVega: sorry, didn't know that 2020-10-12T10:16:57Z aeth: 6000 commits is one of the most active repos I've seen in CL? https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/ 2020-10-12T10:17:06Z jackdaniel: in fact we have more pull requests than we could review in a timely manner 2020-10-12T10:17:15Z aeth: (although, of course, some people use git features to reduce their commits on purpose, to make themselves look less active) 2020-10-12T10:17:36Z VincentVega: i guess i got that feeling from some of the old google threads or smth, sorry 2020-10-12T10:17:39Z jackdaniel: so all I can say is that I invite you to contribute :) 2020-10-12T10:17:42Z phoe: two of the recent OLM talks were directly involving McCLIM, too 2020-10-12T10:17:43Z no-defun-allowed: (Sometimes people do the opposite when they want to get hired!) 2020-10-12T10:18:16Z phoe: one of them was about a McCLIM application and the other used McCLIM to present some concepts visually 2020-10-12T10:18:24Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: gotcha : ) 2020-10-12T10:18:36Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: right, commits are an imperfect measure that can be gamed, but they generally are useful for "not dead" 2020-10-12T10:18:36Z jackdaniel: there is (also active!) irc channel #clim 2020-10-12T10:18:56Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Some people also abuse them to draw pictures on the status/time grid. 2020-10-12T10:19:23Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: ok 2020-10-12T10:21:16Z VincentVega: guys, thank you all for the info! 2020-10-12T10:21:34Z jackdaniel: pleasure ,) 2020-10-12T10:22:49Z jackdaniel: maybe it is a subjective feeling, but common lisp ecosystem and new ideas proliferation are quite active for a dead language 2020-10-12T10:23:56Z aeth: Common Lisp is an undead language 2020-10-12T10:24:16Z jackdaniel: rme had a nice picture at els (in London I think), where Lisp was presented as a zombie 2020-10-12T10:24:33Z phoe: jackdaniel: http://thisoldlisp.com/talks/els-2018/ 2020-10-12T10:24:53Z jackdaniel: phoe: thanks 2020-10-12T10:24:55Z jackdaniel: that: http://thisoldlisp.com/talks/els-2018/slides/tol.004.png 2020-10-12T10:25:34Z jackdaniel: in Marbella 2020-10-12T10:28:26Z no-defun-allowed: CLIM isn't dead, it just smells funny. 2020-10-12T10:33:35Z vkikt_000 quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2020-10-12T10:33:57Z scymtym: McCLIM isn't dead, it just looks like Windows 95 2020-10-12T10:34:18Z jackdaniel: no worries, I'm working on bringing it to DOS look and feel 2020-10-12T10:34:46Z jackdaniel: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/1ffd8148-wool.mp4 2020-10-12T10:35:42Z iissaacc: CL is like biblical hebrew, if we try hard enough it will live again cf. Israeli hebrew 2020-10-12T10:36:01Z iissaacc: (live as in vibrantly popular) 2020-10-12T10:37:53Z scymtym said that with the intention of eventually plugging https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/mcclim-modern-look-and-feel.png but nobody took the bait :) 2020-10-12T10:38:35Z jackdaniel: you did not customize text editor look&feel ,-) looks nice 2020-10-12T10:40:00Z scymtym: yeah, the screenshot is actually outdated in other ways as well, but you know how it goes with screenshots 2020-10-12T10:40:33Z jackdaniel was sneakily taking a jab at drei customization capabilities 2020-10-12T10:41:53Z toorevitimirp quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-10-12T10:43:42Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-12T10:53:42Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T10:54:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T10:55:17Z Gerula quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-12T10:56:25Z davepdot_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-12T10:57:42Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-12T10:58:26Z yoja joined #lisp 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Gerula joined #lisp 2020-10-12T13:42:32Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2020-10-12T13:43:06Z pxpxp: I'd like to assign a new local variable inside a conditional clause of a loop, like using a :for inside an :if. Minimal example: (loop :for i :upto 10 :when (evenp i) << Here I want to say e.g. j = (* 2 i) >> :do (print j)) 2020-10-12T13:43:30Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T13:43:37Z pxpxp: Let's say my equivalent of computing (* 2 i) is a costly operation so I don't want to do it every time 2020-10-12T13:43:48Z phoe: (loop with j = nil ...) 2020-10-12T13:43:51Z phoe: then use J as appropriate in code 2020-10-12T13:44:09Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T13:45:12Z pxpxp: thanks 2020-10-12T13:45:17Z flip214: pxpxp: :when (evenp i) (let ((j (* 2 i))) ... ) if you only need j in there 2020-10-12T13:45:32Z flip214: sorry, :when (evenp i) :do (let...) 2020-10-12T13:46:21Z phoe: or this 2020-10-12T13:47:23Z pxpxp: indeed! 2020-10-12T13:49:03Z linuxnoob joined #lisp 2020-10-12T13:49:07Z linuxnoob: lisp is awful 2020-10-12T13:49:21Z eta: rude 2020-10-12T13:49:27Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe 2020-10-12T13:49:30Z phoe has set mode +b *!*linuxnoob@*.blix.com 2020-10-12T13:49:30Z linuxnoob [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (linuxnoob) 2020-10-12T13:49:32Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe 2020-10-12T13:49:38Z phoe: please carry on 2020-10-12T13:49:54Z Robdgreat: that wasn't even skillful trolling 2020-10-12T13:49:55Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-12T13:49:55Z saganman quit (Changing host) 2020-10-12T13:49:55Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-12T13:50:00Z Robdgreat: thanks phoe 2020-10-12T13:50:05Z phoe: I mean, yeah 2020-10-12T13:50:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-12T13:50:26Z dbotton__ joined #lisp 2020-10-12T13:50:27Z phoe: if you come here to waste everyone's time, at least put some effort of your own into it 2020-10-12T13:50:38Z phoe: or, even better 2020-10-12T13:50:44Z phoe: don't come 2020-10-12T13:50:46Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-12T13:50:57Z Robdgreat: I like some channel or other with something like "if you're going to troll, it better be hilarious" 2020-10-12T13:51:00Z Robdgreat: in the topic 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remexre: is there a pattern for vectors that acts like list* does, i.e. gives me (1 #(2 3)) 2020-10-12T17:13:17Z Bike: is there actually an operator called vector* rather than vector? 2020-10-12T17:19:07Z phoe: clhs vector* 2020-10-12T17:19:07Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for vector*. 2020-10-12T17:19:18Z Bike: in trivia/optima, i mean 2020-10-12T17:19:19Z phoe: oh wait, you are talking trivia 2020-10-12T17:19:34Z remexre: there is in trivia, yes\ 2020-10-12T17:19:49Z Bike: don't see documentation for it. weird. 2020-10-12T17:19:52Z remexre: like, the above code is tested in a repl :P 2020-10-12T17:19:57Z isBEKaml quit 2020-10-12T17:20:03Z VincentVega67 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-12T17:20:45Z Bike: oh wait, here it is 2020-10-12T17:23:05Z Bike: glancing through the manual i don't see anything, but you can probably write one 2020-10-12T17:27:05Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-12T17:28:22Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 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I've almost missed my ambiguous, non-existent appointment that I have scheduled just when I start to lose interest in my current conversation.) 2020-10-12T17:35:05Z Steeve joined #lisp 2020-10-12T17:36:25Z snits joined #lisp 2020-10-12T17:36:27Z kapil_ joined #lisp 2020-10-12T17:36:49Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-12T17:37:26Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T17:39:05Z grumboo joined #lisp 2020-10-12T17:41:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-12T17:44:00Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-10-12T17:49:20Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T17:49:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T17:51:22Z scymtym remembers https://github.com/m2ym/optima/pull/82 2020-10-12T17:51:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-12T17:51:49Z scymtym: last comment says "this is addressed in trivia" 2020-10-12T17:52:43Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-12T17:53:39Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-12T17:54:29Z Bike: mm, and in the comment above that 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1.3 && < 2.0 2020-10-13T00:59:49Z asarch: What is a LOAD-SYSTEM-DEFINITION-ERROR? 2020-10-13T01:00:43Z asarch: Nevermind, I get to the error where there is no *CC* 2020-10-13T01:01:05Z asarch: Condition of type: LOAD-SYSTEM-DEFINITION-ERROR 2020-10-13T01:03:04Z asarch: Error while trying to load definition for system static-vectors from pathname /data/data/org.eql5.android.repl/files/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/static-vectors-v1.8.6/static-vectors.asd: Cannot find the external symbol *CC* in #<"C" package> 2020-10-13T01:04:58Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-13T01:08:08Z ganjajim quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T01:18:01Z defunkydrummer: remexre: no, quicklisp comes in "distributions" and the libraries in one distribution are all compatible against each other (hopefully) 2020-10-13T01:18:54Z defunkydrummer: remexre: I think that what you want can be done with certain utilities that go on top of quicklisp, but i don't have more details to offer. 2020-10-13T01:19:04Z akoana left #lisp 2020-10-13T01:19:21Z aeth: defunkydrummer: actually, with utilities that go under quicklisp, i.e. ASDF 2020-10-13T01:19:23Z aeth: asdf has version-satisfies and version< and version<= 2020-10-13T01:19:33Z remexre: hm, okay; this is a hypothetical anyway, any important projects I' 2020-10-13T01:19:41Z remexre: m already vendoring w/ submodules 2020-10-13T01:20:03Z aeth: ASDF's version functionality will only handle dot-separated natural numbers 2020-10-13T01:21:01Z aeth: Oh, version-satisfies is ASDF and the lower-level version< and version<= are uiop 2020-10-13T01:24:39Z aeth: remexre: (and (uiop:version<= "1.3" version) (uiop:version< version "2.0")) 2020-10-13T01:25:27Z aeth: You would probably have to patch Quicklisp to support x (<= or <) version (<= or <) y 2020-10-13T01:26:43Z aeth: But the underlying UIOP+ASDF system that Quicklisp uses does seem to support this functionality. 2020-10-13T01:32:50Z kaftejiman_ quit (Remote host closed the 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emphasis on the functional paradigm with lisp 2020-10-13T02:29:21Z dbotton__: bordering on discouraging oo or procedural 2020-10-13T02:29:44Z no-defun-allowed: CLOS can be used in a functional manner; there was a paper about it, but there are no a priori reasons either excludes the other to me. 2020-10-13T02:30:05Z dbotton__: you have a link? 2020-10-13T02:30:15Z no-defun-allowed: Looking for one now. 2020-10-13T02:30:20Z no-defun-allowed: https://dreamsongs.com/Files/clos-cacm.pdf 2020-10-13T02:30:37Z dbotton__: thanks 2020-10-13T02:32:56Z dbotton__: are there efforts for an update to the standard (if that is even needed)? 2020-10-13T02:33:39Z no-defun-allowed: But I suppose there are a lot of resources (of questionable quality) stating that Lisp is only a function language. 2020-10-13T02:33:44Z dbotton__: in the algol world if a lang doesn't get a boost every 10 years is considered dead... 2020-10-13T02:34:35Z dbotton__: it is the imperative and oo so far that have me interested 2020-10-13T02:34:38Z no-defun-allowed: Not to my knowledge; all the common extensions (eg closer-mop, bordeaux-threads) are agreed upon outside the standard. 2020-10-13T02:34:55Z dbotton__: if I see that functional gets me some place all the better 2020-10-13T02:35:25Z dbotton__: I have felt that most functional programing I have encouraged just took away readability and quality 2020-10-13T02:35:29Z remexre: arguably, cl has strong enough metaprogramming that spec updates aren't needed for stuff that other languages put in spec updates 2020-10-13T02:36:02Z dbotton__: that is how things seem to me, but I am far from fully grasping the full picture yet 2020-10-13T02:36:09Z remexre: also as someone who writes the programs you're complaining about, I think that Haskell/PureScript do that style of FP better :P 2020-10-13T02:36:25Z remexre: but you /can/ e.g. use the Cont monad in CL 2020-10-13T02:36:34Z remexre: it's just not, like, normal 2020-10-13T02:36:43Z no-defun-allowed: Do what you have to do; but I've observed that functional programming involves less hair-pulling with parallel programs. 2020-10-13T02:37:50Z dbotton__: Convenience is what I have seen it offer 2020-10-13T02:37:56Z dbotton__: for parallel programing 2020-10-13T02:38:17Z remexre: for concurrent programming, I think it has compelling advantages 2020-10-13T02:38:37Z remexre: since you can implement green threads easily as a library, force shared mutable state to use stm, etc 2020-10-13T02:39:37Z no-defun-allowed: I don't really have anything to say about concurrent programming, other than shared state is evil. 2020-10-13T02:40:40Z remexre: STM lets you phrase your uses of shared state as transactions, and you can compose transactions 2020-10-13T02:40:41Z dbotton__: Everything I have done since around 1993 till now has been concurrent systems, I can't imagine an app anymore without 2020-10-13T02:41:04Z dbotton__: the Ada model has worked well 2020-10-13T02:41:06Z remexre: like shared state is still to be avoided with it, but it removes most of the mutex footguns 2020-10-13T02:41:56Z dbotton__: and extended well for distributed systems. 2020-10-13T02:42:17Z dbotton__: I have not done much though with parallel algorithms 2020-10-13T02:42:29Z dbotton__: ie drilling down not out 2020-10-13T02:44:16Z dbotton__: are there any concurrency models using CLOS that are popular? 2020-10-13T02:44:53Z dbotton__: something like Active Oberon? 2020-10-13T02:45:46Z no-defun-allowed: As far as I can tell, it'd be nonsensical, as objects don't "do things" like in object-centric languages including Oberon. 2020-10-13T02:47:01Z dbotton__: the idea is to encapsulate the shared state issues 2020-10-13T02:47:37Z remexre: I think I'd use local variables for that :P 2020-10-13T02:47:54Z dbotton__: and if you object being shared in two threads? 2020-10-13T02:48:56Z remexre: don't do that (TM) 2020-10-13T02:49:10Z remexre: most of my data is immutable 2020-10-13T02:50:10Z dbotton__: yes that is the convenience of functional 2020-10-13T02:50:41Z dbotton__: at the loss of modeling the real world etc the advantages of oo etc 2020-10-13T02:50:56Z aeth: dbotton__: On CLOS... if your style isn't particularly OO, it's still going to be used here or there to get polymorphism. 2020-10-13T02:51:19Z aeth: It would be maybe like 5% of the depth that CLOS offers, of course. 2020-10-13T02:51:21Z remexre: yeah, I use CLOS more to be able to use methods/generic functions than b/c objects model my domain well 2020-10-13T02:52:37Z aeth: dbotton__: CLOS is actually really good at being used in a project that isn't particularly object oriented because instead of putting methods with an object, you can just refactor your function into a method if suddenly you need/want polymorphism, without having to do any major changes. 2020-10-13T02:53:12Z aeth: really just s/defun/defmethod/ 2020-10-13T02:53:47Z aeth: In most OOP languages, you'd have to move the method inside of the class definition, and maybe move it to another (possibly new) file if that class is defined there 2020-10-13T02:54:18Z aeth: And then you'd probably have to change foo(bar, baz) into bar.foo(baz) too 2020-10-13T02:55:51Z dbotton__: That was what I like but Ada's OO also more granular and can use it in parts 2020-10-13T02:56:18Z aeth: (or baz.foo(bar)) 2020-10-13T02:58:35Z dbotton__: thanks going to read that article 2020-10-13T03:00:22Z dbotton__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T03:00:25Z aeth: dbotton__: if "can use it in parts" means that you can subset the OO in Ada but can't in CL, then, yeah, CLOS is sort of all-or-nothing from an implementation perspective (and every application is also going to have to ship it) 2020-10-13T03:00:57Z aeth: DEFSTRUCT kind of exists as a sort of subset, though. 2020-10-13T03:02:45Z dbotton: use it in parts means more control over where polymorphism applies 2020-10-13T03:03:34Z dbotton: or other oo magic 2020-10-13T03:03:47Z dbotton: seems that clos is similar 2020-10-13T03:03:50Z sm2n: well, if you don't want it, just use regular functions 2020-10-13T03:04:07Z sm2n: generic functions are regular functions with fancy pixie dust 2020-10-13T03:04:20Z dbotton: but can hold on to encapsulated 2020-10-13T03:04:52Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-13T03:04:56Z dbotton: encapsulation 2020-10-13T03:11:37Z jesse1010 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-13T03:16:56Z aeth: yeah, you can just use a DEFUN even if the argument is of a certain class 2020-10-13T03:17:44Z aeth: I would argue that you should use a DEFUN instead of a DEFMETHOD unless you want (1) to use polymorphism, (2) to use :before/:after/:around, and/or (3) to let the user of the API do #1 or #2 2020-10-13T03:18:16Z aeth: Except, of course, for the accessors that are usually auto-generated anyway. That's more practicality than anything else. It would be very easy to have a name conflict for something like NAME. 2020-10-13T03:19:21Z defunkydrummer: aeth: #3 to gain some type safety (will only dispatch if the parameters are of the correct specializers) 2020-10-13T03:19:44Z defunkydrummer: aeth: sorry, reason #4 would be to gain some type safety... 2020-10-13T03:20:14Z defunkydrummer: and to leave your system open for further extension 2020-10-13T03:20:16Z aeth: defunkydrummer: No, you can just use DECLARE or CHECK-TYPE (but use a macro that generates one or both of those) when you just want to work with a type (including classes). 2020-10-13T03:20:49Z defunkydrummer: aeth: yes you can but the effect will depend on the implementation 2020-10-13T03:21:29Z aeth: CHECK-TYPE is well-specified. DECLARE will depend on the implementation, but will reasonably either just be ignored or do type checking. The only implementation that assumes types is SBCL with (safety 0) and the general advice is to never use (safety 0) for that reason. 2020-10-13T03:22:17Z defunkydrummer: i love (safety 0) (debug 0) (speed 3) ... YOLO mode 2020-10-13T03:22:24Z aeth: But if semantically you want to check the type then semantically you should do typechecking, not DEFMETHOD, unless you want the user (or yourself) to add more supported types in a polymorphic way later on. 2020-10-13T03:22:40Z aeth: For one, it'll give you a good error message 2020-10-13T03:22:46Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-10-13T03:23:39Z defunkydrummer: bonjour Beach 2020-10-13T03:24:37Z defunkydrummer: aeth: yes, that's my point, declare will depend on the implementation, while any implementation that has CLOS won't dispatch to the method if the arguments aren't of the correct type (or subtype etc) 2020-10-13T03:24:48Z aeth: Personally I'd use my own define-function macro for your particular case (if I wanted to guarantee type checking) and write it as (define-function (foo :check-type t) lambda-list body)... 2020-10-13T03:24:52Z aeth: ...and if the types are also classes and if I don't define types for &key or &body or &optional (which I support but defmethod does not) then it could easily be refactored into (defmethod foo lambda-list body) at some later point if I find that I need polymorphism. 2020-10-13T03:25:57Z aeth: There are lots of macros like this, but they're imo broken if (1) they use the opposite order of defmethod (i.e. if they use (type var) instead of (var type)) or (2) they don't allow you to use check-type instead of declare 2020-10-13T03:27:34Z aeth: I'm personally more likely to need &key types checked than I am going to need polymorphism, although I guess I could come up with a define-method that creates a wrapper function that flattens the &key/&optional and calls a defmethod 2020-10-13T03:27:36Z defunkydrummer: aeth: agree with you on the "broken" part 2020-10-13T03:29:42Z aeth: defunkydrummer: Generally, I use DECLARE on "internal" things and CHECK-TYPE on "external" things, but I write... very large software, so I wind up using DECLARE more than CHECK-TYPE... and absolutely all of it is generated by DEFINE-FUNCTION these days. 2020-10-13T03:30:12Z aeth: That is, for internal things, it's not going to be the end of the world if the type's not checked, and probably even if the type's assumed, but for external things, the CHECK-TYPE's continuable nature makes it more suitable than even a DEFMETHOD. 2020-10-13T03:31:18Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-13T03:34:48Z aeth: defunkydrummer: I actually wonder if there's a way to enforce a CHECK-TYPE style behavior if there's no applicable method. e.g. in (defmethod foo ((integer integer)) (* integer integer)) vs. (defun foobar (integer) (check-type integer integer) (* integer integer)) you can provide an integer in the latter 2020-10-13T03:34:52Z sts-q quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-13T03:39:56Z defunkydrummer: aeth: i think there was a way (using mop i think?) to redirect the 'no applicable method' to another place. Like if we were on a message-passing system (smalltalk). I think no-defun-allowed knows about this. 2020-10-13T03:40:06Z defunkydrummer: no-defun-allowed: oi 2020-10-13T03:40:20Z no-defun-allowed: clhs no-applicable-method 2020-10-13T03:40:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_no_app.htm 2020-10-13T03:42:16Z no-defun-allowed: Smalltalk has doesNotUnderstand: aMessage which would be called with messages it doesn't have any other methods for. Note that this is per generic function though, and I admittedly can't think of something this could do that a method specialised to all Ts couldn't do. 2020-10-13T03:42:37Z aeth: oh, hmm, I guess the issue with trying to do something in the style of CHECK-TYPE is that you'd need a matching type signature of every argument at once. 2020-10-13T03:43:07Z aeth: You couldn't just iterate over each and ask for something to be valid, since what you really want is a valid combination. 2020-10-13T03:47:28Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-10-13T03:50:16Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-13T04:03:48Z Volt_ joined #lisp 2020-10-13T04:06:25Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-13T04:06:46Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T04:07:25Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T04:08:38Z notzmv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-13T04:08:54Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-13T04:08:54Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-13T04:10:38Z Jeanne-Kamikaze joined #lisp 2020-10-13T04:17:17Z sm2n: is there anyway to get cl-who/hunchentoot to indent html output? 2020-10-13T04:17:39Z no-defun-allowed: (with-html-output (... :indent t) ...) 2020-10-13T04:20:08Z sm2n: woah, thanks I missed that in the docs 2020-10-13T04:34:34Z kiroul quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-13T04:34:36Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T04:39:04Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-10-13T04:44:26Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T04:53:19Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T04:54:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T04:57:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T04:57:50Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T05:01:27Z cjv quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-10-13T05:02:53Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-13T05:04:25Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-13T05:08:04Z skapata quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T05:08:27Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-13T05:09:22Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-13T05:13:01Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-13T05:13:06Z jello_pudding joined #lisp 2020-10-13T05:32:56Z borei joined #lisp 2020-10-13T05:33:13Z borei: good morning/afternoon ! 2020-10-13T05:35:24Z borei: does anybody has experience with ceph object storage. Im working on CL rados client. 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It doesn't appear to have much in common with Common Lisp, because signalling a condition is one of many things that causes non-local transfer of control. 2020-10-13T08:41:53Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2020-10-13T08:42:26Z treflip joined #lisp 2020-10-13T08:43:10Z luis75 quit (Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat) 2020-10-13T08:43:24Z no-defun-allowed: And the condition system is (usually) just implemented with dynamic variables and some other control structure. 2020-10-13T08:44:26Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-13T08:46:05Z pve: I can't help, but I would like to learn what "two-phase unwinding" means. 2020-10-13T08:46:34Z phoe: I can help\ 2020-10-13T08:47:22Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-13T08:48:35Z beach: clhs 5.2 2020-10-13T08:48:35Z specbot: Transfer of Control to an Exit Point: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_b.htm 2020-10-13T08:48:44Z beach: I am guessing that's what ioa is referring to. 2020-10-13T08:49:29Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T08:50:48Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T08:51:28Z pve reads 2020-10-13T08:54:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T08:54:46Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T08:55:10Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-13T08:55:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T08:56:33Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-13T09:02:09Z pve: How would a simpler unwinding look? Does "one-phase unwinding" exist? 2020-10-13T09:02:18Z phoe: yes 2020-10-13T09:02:19Z ioa: For aheejin in the Wasm question I posted, exceptions with two-phase unwinding are exceptions that first locate the point where they are caught before starting the unwinding/filtering etc process of being thrown. 2020-10-13T09:02:22Z phoe: it's unwind-protect 2020-10-13T09:02:28Z phoe: ioa: I'm preparing a post there 2020-10-13T09:02:58Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-13T09:03:40Z ioa: That's great news phoe! Looking forward to your answer. 2020-10-13T09:04:04Z ioa: But I'm confused about unwind-protect being "one-phase unwinding" 2020-10-13T09:04:45Z phoe: when control leaves the unwind-protect form, no matter how it leaves, the cleanup form is executed, then whatever was happening resumes 2020-10-13T09:04:53Z phoe: that's it 2020-10-13T09:05:01Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-13T09:06:11Z ioa: thank you beach, that is a good link describing the unwinding phases in common-lisp 2020-10-13T09:08:08Z beach: Sure. 2020-10-13T09:08:32Z ioa: phoe the text in clhs 5.2 describes unwind protect causing several things to happen between an exception being thrown and the stack being unwound to the exception's catching point. 2020-10-13T09:08:58Z ioa: one-phase unwinding would be nothing happenning except the unwinding. 2020-10-13T09:09:12Z ioa: *happening. 2020-10-13T09:09:12Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T09:09:29Z beach: ioa: I think if you did it in one phase, you would not be able to "abandon" exit points between the signaler and the handler. 2020-10-13T09:09:38Z phoe: oh! I misunderstood the "two-phase unwinding" term then 2020-10-13T09:09:42Z phoe reads more 2020-10-13T09:10:53Z beach: ioa: That makes a difference when an UNWIND-PROTECT does some non-local transfer to an exit point that is between the initial signaler and its handler. 2020-10-13T09:11:02Z beach: In Common Lisp that's undefined behavior. 2020-10-13T09:11:11Z ioa: I'm not sure what you mean beach. Please note that WebAssembly is designed really differently than common-lisp. There are no such things like exit points in Wasm. 2020-10-13T09:11:27Z phoe: beach: I think that's on a different level though 2020-10-13T09:11:35Z beach: Oh, I am not speaking about WebAssembly at all. Just describing how Common Lisp does it. 2020-10-13T09:11:40Z phoe: oh - OK 2020-10-13T09:11:55Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-13T09:11:59Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-13T09:12:57Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-10-13T09:13:11Z phoe: point 1 of 5.2 basically means that cleanup forms can no longer transfer control to exit points that are now in the "middle" - that's UB though, so the burden is on the programmer anyway 2020-10-13T09:13:12Z ioa: Ah, sorry beach, of course. So you are saying that stack unwinding when common-lisp conditions are signalled have definitely more than one phase. 2020-10-13T09:13:17Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T09:13:23Z phoe: ioa: yes, but this can be implemented in CL 2020-10-13T09:13:32Z phoe: we do not need to have wasm support for this. 2020-10-13T09:13:39Z karlosz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T09:14:12Z ioa: not sure what you mean phoe 2020-10-13T09:14:30Z phoe: as long as we have dynamic variables, we can undo catch tags, condition handlers, and restarts ourselves 2020-10-13T09:14:37Z phoe: this resolves point 3 of CLHS 5.2 2020-10-13T09:15:06Z phoe: if I understand correctly, then we do not strictly need to implement point 1 of CLHS 5.2 because it's UB anyway and the burden is on the programmer 2020-10-13T09:15:22Z ioa: what's UB? :) 2020-10-13T09:15:26Z phoe: undefined behavior 2020-10-13T09:15:29Z ioa: thanks 2020-10-13T09:15:32Z phoe: this leaves point 2 ("The cleanup clauses of any intervening unwind-protect clauses are evaluated.") and point 4 which performs the real jump 2020-10-13T09:15:32Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-13T09:15:56Z beach: ioa: As phoe points out, all that is needed is special variables and some non-local transfer mechanism. One hopes that the language has non-local transfers, or it would be pretty much useless for anything but toy programs. 2020-10-13T09:16:17Z phoe: beach: yes, that is what they are discussing over there 2020-10-13T09:19:43Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-13T09:19:56Z ioa: Yes, we are also discussing potential non-local control transfer mechanisms, although please note the "Assembly" in "WebAssembly". The language is not intended to be written directly, but as a compilation target. 2020-10-13T09:20:37Z beach: ioa: Sure, but then you need some control over the dynamic environment. 2020-10-13T09:21:09Z aeth joined #lisp 2020-10-13T09:21:11Z beach: ioa: I guess having access to the call stack would be enough. 2020-10-13T09:22:02Z ioa: Wasm has a unified call/value stack 2020-10-13T09:22:30Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-13T09:22:31Z ioa: so a frame is an administrative instruction, as is its end, as is a constant, etc 2020-10-13T09:22:55Z ioa: and these all go on the same stack 2020-10-13T09:24:32Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-13T09:25:21Z beach: I think the minimal mechanism required would be something like setjmp/longjmp where you abandon some currently executing functions. 2020-10-13T09:26:04Z phoe: https://gist.github.com/phoe/35e596c3746d8d0ea82aaf1bb51781fc 2020-10-13T09:26:07Z phoe: Please review 2020-10-13T09:27:22Z no-defun-allowed: Is there a missing function name around (let (((lambda () (return-from frobnicate 42)))) ...)? 2020-10-13T09:27:31Z phoe: oh snap 2020-10-13T09:27:33Z phoe: yes, thanks 2020-10-13T09:27:45Z phoe: fixed 2020-10-13T09:27:47Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-13T09:28:35Z ioa: phoe I wasn't aware of this, thanks "the stack is wound further instead of being unwound" 2020-10-13T09:28:41Z phoe: ioa: doh 2020-10-13T09:28:47Z ioa: ? 2020-10-13T09:28:54Z phoe: I was talking about this on the first Online Lisp Meeting :D 2020-10-13T09:29:13Z ioa: Oh I must have missed that insight, sorry. 2020-10-13T09:29:18Z phoe: no problem, just kidding 2020-10-13T09:29:19Z ioa: :) 2020-10-13T09:29:31Z phoe: but, yes, Lisp does error-handling differently 2020-10-13T09:29:32Z beach: ioa: That's the key to doing restarts. 2020-10-13T09:29:55Z phoe: beach: and to the functioning of the Lisp debugger 2020-10-13T09:30:01Z beach: Indeed. 2020-10-13T09:31:11Z beach: Most current languages are deficient in this respect. It wouldn't surprise me if something like WebAssembly assumed this deficiency, since it is so widespread. 2020-10-13T09:31:36Z ioa: beach - that's why I asked here :) 2020-10-13T09:31:46Z phoe: okay, I've rearranged the things in that post a little bit - it should be cleaner now 2020-10-13T09:32:33Z ioa: "I'll be supporting this issue as a Common Lisp programmer." what do you mean by this phoe? 2020-10-13T09:32:49Z phoe: I should have written "if you need any CL insight I'll be available to answer" 2020-10-13T09:32:59Z ioa: brilliant, thanks 2020-10-13T09:33:47Z ioa: UB is not defined in your post ;) 2020-10-13T09:34:23Z phoe: ioa: fixed 2020-10-13T09:34:59Z no-defun-allowed: "Yes, UB is UB..." 2020-10-13T09:35:00Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: does it look OK now? 2020-10-13T09:35:10Z no-defun-allowed reads 2020-10-13T09:35:15Z phoe: or, anyone else who's taken a look so far 2020-10-13T09:35:50Z no-defun-allowed: Looks good. 2020-10-13T09:35:51Z ioa: I'm worried it's too verbose tbh. aheejin is already aware of unwind-protect, she links to the clhs entry for unwind-protect 2020-10-13T09:35:52Z phoe: is UNWIND-PROTECT equivalent to Java's finally? 2020-10-13T09:35:55Z phoe: because it seems so 2020-10-13T09:35:59Z phoe: yes, I've just seen it 2020-10-13T09:36:16Z ioa: phoe I heard this before, and I guess that is the question at hand 2020-10-13T09:36:44Z no-defun-allowed: Java only has exceptions for NLTC, but basically yes. 2020-10-13T09:37:36Z phoe: hmm 2020-10-13T09:37:40Z phoe: let me try to trim this down then 2020-10-13T09:38:13Z no-defun-allowed: (So try { ... } finally { ...} is compiled like try { ... } catch (Exception e) { ...; throw e; } -- but in a parallel universe where Java had TAGBODY, it'd probably have to obey finally.) 2020-10-13T09:38:34Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-13T09:38:43Z no-defun-allowed: (I'm probably being too pedantic after having read how exceptions are compiled.) 2020-10-13T09:38:45Z ioa: you can call functions in webassembly and there is a `return`instruction (not a `return-from`, but there is a `br l` (break to label l)). 2020-10-13T09:39:07Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: uh wait a second though 2020-10-13T09:39:11Z phoe: you forgot the no-exception case 2020-10-13T09:39:22Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed I did. 2020-10-13T09:40:05Z ioa: I'm not sure what you are trying to say in the 4th part, this seems very well known 2020-10-13T09:40:18Z ioa: sorry 3rd part 2020-10-13T09:40:32Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-13T09:41:03Z phoe: ioa: I've trimmed the post a little bit 2020-10-13T09:41:34Z no-defun-allowed: I can't think of how to express that in plain Java. But one can also return "early" in the try block, so I wonder how that pans out. 'Tis a silly place. 2020-10-13T09:41:47Z ioa: in fact, in wasm we'd only be interested in a primitive that does this: "If (foo) does not return normally (meaning, a non-local jump outside the unwind-protect form is performed), then, before control leaves the unwind-protect form, (bar) is executed, and then the transfer of control proceeds further." 2020-10-13T09:42:57Z phoe: OK - is the current version of the post more on-topic? 2020-10-13T09:43:16Z ioa: yes phoe, looks good, thank you! 2020-10-13T09:43:48Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: is this good to go now? 2020-10-13T09:44:21Z no-defun-allowed: I think so. 2020-10-13T09:44:30Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2020-10-13T09:45:08Z phoe: OK, posting 2020-10-13T09:45:29Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-13T09:45:48Z phoe: thanks for the cooperation, everyone 2020-10-13T09:46:32Z jackdaniel: someone writes wasm cl? 2020-10-13T09:46:46Z phoe: IIUC not yet, but the groundwork is being prepared right now 2020-10-13T09:47:06Z jackdaniel: scl author was advocating for lisp-friendly features in wasm 2020-10-13T09:47:15Z phoe: seems like ioa is doing the same :D 2020-10-13T09:47:29Z jackdaniel: afair he has encountered some pushback, I don't know how much he advocated succesfully 2020-10-13T09:47:57Z ioa: :) 2020-10-13T09:48:50Z jackdaniel: one day operating system will degrade to a single "browser" window, tabs will become floating windows, hardware will implement directly wasm and we'll reach early '80 OS state of the art in glory 2020-10-13T09:49:36Z phoe: jackdaniel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GibiNy4d4gc 2020-10-13T09:49:46Z jackdaniel: (in other words, we'll trade C-descendent unix for JS-descendent googlix) 2020-10-13T09:50:16Z ioa: Of course I am advocating lisp-friendly features everywhere. :) But I keep in mind that Wasm is an Asm, so if CL can be implemented in Asm then it can be implemented in Wasm too. No need to be overly fanatic about it. I just like to write the spec in formulas and then implement it. 2020-10-13T09:50:54Z ioa: jackdaniel hahahaha :D 2020-10-13T09:51:01Z jackdaniel: ioa: I'm not criticizing wasm per se, it is a wonderful improvement over javascript, I keep fingers crossed 2020-10-13T09:51:16Z ioa: :) 2020-10-13T09:53:53Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) 2020-10-13T09:53:55Z ioa: I am quite fond of wasm - the spec is one of my favourite documents, so formal! <3 2020-10-13T09:54:22Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-13T09:56:38Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-13T09:56:51Z supercoven joined #lisp 2020-10-13T09:57:04Z ioa: jackdaniel, any links to this scl author advocating lisp-friendly features in wasm? 2020-10-13T09:57:17Z phoe: now that you mention it I wonder what happened to scl 2020-10-13T09:57:45Z jackdaniel: let me see, maybe I have it bookmarked somewhere 2020-10-13T09:59:03Z jackdaniel: this is the offspring of that advocacy: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2019/11/multi-value-all-the-wasm/ 2020-10-13T09:59:21Z ioa: this is my coworker's doing :) 2020-10-13T09:59:32Z jackdaniel: great :) 2020-10-13T09:59:57Z ioa: oh wait I said that before I clicked 2020-10-13T10:00:13Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-13T10:00:55Z ioa: I meant the SM implementation 2020-10-13T10:01:19Z jackdaniel: ioa: http://web.archive.org/web/20181206050710/http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/19495 2020-10-13T10:01:52Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-13T10:02:21Z ioa: thanks jackdaniel! 2020-10-13T10:02:25Z jackdaniel: sure 2020-10-13T10:02:42Z ioa: here's the post about the SM implementation of multi-value in wasm just in case https://wingolog.org/archives/2020/04/03/multi-value-webassembly-in-firefox-from-1-to-n 2020-10-13T10:03:33Z jackdaniel: I saw it 2020-10-13T10:03:49Z jackdaniel: cool stuff :) 2020-10-13T10:03:59Z ioa: :) 2020-10-13T10:07:52Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-13T10:08:17Z ioa: phoe about "unwind-protect - it is equivalent to Java's finally." is this formal equivalency? Any pointers to this? 2020-10-13T10:08:32Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-13T10:08:59Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/s_unwind.htm: "unwind-protect evaluates protected-form and guarantees that cleanup-forms are executed before unwind-protect exits, whether it terminates normally or is aborted by a control transfer of some kind." 2020-10-13T10:09:14Z phoe: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/exceptions/finally.html: "The finally block always executes when the try block exits. This ensures that the finally block is executed even if an unexpected exception occurs. But finally is useful for more than just exception handling — it allows the programmer to avoid having cleanup code accidentally bypassed by a return, continue, or break." 2020-10-13T10:09:30Z ioa: thanks 2020-10-13T10:09:47Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-13T10:11:24Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-13T10:14:05Z ioa: fyi labels and breaks to labels are always nested in wasm. There is no going to arbitrary places. 2020-10-13T10:14:42Z phoe: same in Lisp - you can't go somewhere that is not in the lexical or dynamic scope of whatever you're doing right now 2020-10-13T10:15:20Z phoe: to be more precise: lexical for go/return-from, dynamic for throw and go/return-from closures 2020-10-13T10:16:14Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-13T10:19:52Z jackdaniel: there is a cleanup issue about dynamic extent possible implementations (minimal, medium and something) which discusses closures that escape their dynamic context 2020-10-13T10:20:18Z jackdaniel: i.e (block foo (lambda () (return-from foo))) 2020-10-13T10:20:37Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-13T10:21:17Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss152_w.htm 2020-10-13T10:23:13Z phoe: from what I understand, MINIMAL was adopted 2020-10-13T10:23:29Z gaqwas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T10:23:53Z jackdaniel: rather: minimal was clarified, and both are permissible 2020-10-13T10:24:03Z phoe: oh! 2020-10-13T10:24:04Z phoe: Status: proposal MINIMAL, as amended, passed Mar 89 X3J13 by vote of 11-5. 2020-10-13T10:25:12Z jackdaniel: uhm, both were proposed but one was accept, ok 2020-10-13T10:25:13Z jackdaniel: thanks 2020-10-13T10:29:25Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-13T10:31:25Z aeth joined #lisp 2020-10-13T10:38:24Z ggole joined #lisp 2020-10-13T10:47:25Z dbotton__ joined #lisp 2020-10-13T10:49:25Z Stanley00 quit 2020-10-13T10:49:50Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-13T10:55:00Z _jrjsmrtn joined #lisp 2020-10-13T10:55:25Z __jrjsmrtn__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-13T10:59:24Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T11:03:41Z treflip quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T11:07:57Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-13T11:11:58Z mmohammadi981266 joined #lisp 2020-10-13T11:12:04Z mmohammadi981266 quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-13T11:14:05Z mmohammadi981266 joined #lisp 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2020-10-13T20:17:15Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T20:17:32Z rixard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-13T20:18:14Z rixard joined #lisp 2020-10-13T20:18:17Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-13T20:18:38Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-13T20:20:57Z semz joined #lisp 2020-10-13T20:24:58Z defunkydrummer joined #lisp 2020-10-13T20:29:13Z jello_pudding quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-13T20:29:48Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-13T20:31:57Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-13T20:34:06Z phoe: beach: we got a YouTube question. 2020-10-13T20:34:11Z phoe: "What stops one from taking the approach of traditional compiler bootstrapping, substituting 'basic' Lisp for machine code? We write all our macros and functions as we normally would, macroexpand them to our 'basic' Lisp subset which has no macro invocations and potentially a reduced set of special forms, and write an interpreter/compiler for the 'basic' Lisp. Then we only need to use a host CL implementation 2020-10-13T20:34:17Z phoe: once for the macroexpansion." 2020-10-13T20:35:38Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-13T20:36:07Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-13T20:40:02Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-13T20:45:03Z xrash joined #lisp 2020-10-13T20:54:51Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER) 2020-10-13T20:55:09Z dbotton_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-13T20:55:12Z lowryder quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T20:59:25Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:00:26Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:05:44Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T21:05:44Z Nilby quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-13T21:05:58Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:13:05Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T21:13:13Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:14:33Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T21:15:18Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:16:24Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T21:16:44Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:17:45Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T21:17:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:19:33Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T21:19:41Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:24:15Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T21:24:25Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:26:44Z jello_pudding joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:27:12Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T21:27:21Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:27:49Z anewuser joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:31:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-13T21:33:12Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T21:34:26Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:37:28Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-13T21:43:22Z Gerula quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T21:44:36Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T21:44:50Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:47:27Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:47:57Z Inline joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:48:16Z xrash joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:48:56Z sonologico joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:49:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-13T21:51:50Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:54:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-13T21:55:33Z decentyousername quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-13T21:55:33Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-13T21:57:28Z malm quit (Quit: Bye bye) 2020-10-13T21:58:47Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-13T21:59:07Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:02:11Z pve quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-13T22:03:17Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-13T22:03:41Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:05:14Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T22:05:32Z Gerula joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:06:08Z srhm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-13T22:07:09Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:07:36Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T22:07:47Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T22:07:58Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:08:08Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:08:13Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-13T22:10:11Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T22:10:19Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:11:48Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T22:11:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T22:12:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:12:09Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:13:03Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T22:13:48Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-13T22:13:51Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:14:14Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:14:54Z Inline: https://pastebin.com/SfKRCNhX 2020-10-13T22:15:38Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T22:15:46Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:16:46Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T22:16:57Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T22:17:14Z sonologico quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T22:17:32Z no-defun-allowed: That's a lot of tabs. 2020-10-13T22:17:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:18:17Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-13T22:18:41Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:19:10Z Bike: would you be so courteous as to explain what this is or why you're linking it 2020-10-13T22:19:14Z Inline: sorry the pasting has caused some disalignment 2020-10-13T22:20:16Z Inline: i was getting failures, which were because i was trying to specialize on &optional, which stassats told me over in #sbcl 2020-10-13T22:20:51Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T22:21:12Z Bike: okay, and then you pasted it here a few minutes later, because? 2020-10-13T22:21:26Z Inline: so (distance-origin p1) is the same as (distance p1 nil) 2020-10-13T22:21:44Z Inline: Bike: what do you mean ? 2020-10-13T22:21:50Z Inline: am i forbidden todo that ? 2020-10-13T22:21:56Z phoe: no no, more like 2020-10-13T22:22:00Z Bike: I'm just asking what you want help with, or what. 2020-10-13T22:22:02Z phoe: what's the question you have 2020-10-13T22:22:15Z Bike: We can't divine your intent based on just this code. 2020-10-13T22:22:18Z Inline: why should i help, when it's me how needs it maybe ? 2020-10-13T22:22:31Z Inline: whatever bike 2020-10-13T22:22:34Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:22:55Z Bike: Am i out of line here? I would be happy to try to answer a question but I need to know what the question is. 2020-10-13T22:22:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T22:23:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:23:37Z Inline: the question is already answered over in #sbcl, i just pasted the corrected code over here, because stassats meant it's maybe more related to #lisp 2020-10-13T22:23:47Z Inline: so, there's that 2020-10-13T22:23:49Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T22:23:52Z phoe: oh, okay 2020-10-13T22:23:56Z jcowan joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:24:00Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:24:12Z phoe: ...except I don't think there was a conversation over here related to this code 2020-10-13T22:24:16Z jcowan: Does anyone know of use cases for arrays whose shape includes a zero? They have no elements, but they are valid. 2020-10-13T22:24:33Z jcowan: (other than vectors) 2020-10-13T22:24:50Z Inline: do you mean sparse arrays ? 2020-10-13T22:25:00Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-13T22:25:06Z phoe: I think he means arrays e.g. of dimensions (3 0 4) 2020-10-13T22:25:19Z no-defun-allowed: Arrays where one dimension is zero, but have more than one dimension. 2020-10-13T22:25:24Z Inline: isn't that sparse too ? 2020-10-13T22:25:34Z phoe: nope, arrays aren't sparse in CL 2020-10-13T22:25:55Z Inline: other then elementwise sparse it's row wise sparse or column wise sparse 2020-10-13T22:25:55Z phoe: this means that the array has 3*0*4 elements inside it 2020-10-13T22:26:01Z Inline: i mean the above 2020-10-13T22:26:46Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T22:27:29Z phoe: uhh, no 2020-10-13T22:27:53Z phoe: arrays aren't sparse in CL 2020-10-13T22:28:03Z Inline: yeah 2020-10-13T22:28:10Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:28:15Z phoe: (array-total-size (make-array '(0 3 4))) ;=> 0 2020-10-13T22:28:20Z Inline: i suppose he asks for some special library which has such functionality or so 2020-10-13T22:28:31Z phoe: jcowan: as for actual use cases... hm 2020-10-13T22:28:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:28:47Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-13T22:28:51Z jcowan: Yes, dimensions like 3 0 4 2020-10-13T22:28:58Z phoe: I assume that if one needs to handle user-provided array dimensions then having such arrays would be beneficial 2020-10-13T22:29:19Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:29:47Z phoe: e.g. if someone handles a situation where each shop can have a given number of each product, each with a given expiration date 2020-10-13T22:29:57Z phoe: so e.g. 10 shops, 10 products, 10 possible expiration dates 2020-10-13T22:30:08Z phoe: all user-input and such 2020-10-13T22:30:11Z jcowan: They can't store anything, though; they are just shapes, which are just lists. 2020-10-13T22:30:23Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-13T22:30:35Z phoe: then we would like a case where we have 0 products which effectively allocates a zero-total-size array 2020-10-13T22:30:45Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:30:47Z phoe: that's a stupid example but I think it's possible in real situations 2020-10-13T22:30:58Z jcowan: I sure can't think of one. 2020-10-13T22:31:13Z jcowan feels like a post-Roman trying to grasp Arabic numbers with their zero sign. 2020-10-13T22:31:24Z phoe: maybe they are just there to take care of an edge case 2020-10-13T22:31:41Z jcowan: I thought that was what exceptions were for. :-) 2020-10-13T22:32:04Z anewuser quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T22:32:11Z jcowan: I guess it's a generalization of a zero-length vector, which does make sense because vectors are sequences. 2020-10-13T22:32:25Z phoe: I mean, we're now stepping into the zone named "should (make-array '(3 0 4)) signal an error or not" 2020-10-13T22:32:28Z jcowan: (a fortiori, empty strings too) 2020-10-13T22:32:32Z Bike: there are also zero rank arrays, which are silly. 2020-10-13T22:32:47Z phoe: obviously they have a single element though 2020-10-13T22:32:54Z jcowan: Those I can actually understand; they guarantee that the inner product of conformable arrays is an array. 2020-10-13T22:32:55Z Bike: a silly element 2020-10-13T22:33:09Z anewuser joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:33:09Z Bike: yeah, i wouldn't want them eliminated or anything 2020-10-13T22:33:13Z no-defun-allowed: Those are convenient "boxes", which some people use conses for. 2020-10-13T22:33:17Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-13T22:33:26Z emys quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-13T22:33:31Z jcowan: Although I would bet that conses have less overhead. 2020-10-13T22:33:38Z no-defun-allowed: But with one element, you don't have to decide whether the CAR or the CDR holds the value. (Obviously the CAR though). 2020-10-13T22:33:38Z Bike: the standard specifically allows zero dimensions, e.g. in the glossary entry for "valid array dimension" 2020-10-13T22:33:39Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:33:42Z jcowan: even in systems where they are not specially optimized. 2020-10-13T22:33:52Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. 2020-10-13T22:33:53Z Bike: "Such a fixnum must be greater than or equal to zero..." 2020-10-13T22:33:54Z jcowan: Right, which is why I asked for use cases. 2020-10-13T22:34:01Z anewuser quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T22:34:14Z phoe: I mean, why would (make-array '()) have more elements than (make-array '(0)) 2020-10-13T22:34:17Z phoe: that was my first intuition 2020-10-13T22:34:25Z Bike: because the empty product is 1 2020-10-13T22:34:38Z anewuser joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:34:41Z Bike: but no, i don't know any use cases, other than for empty vectors which you already ruled out 2020-10-13T22:34:53Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:34:53Z jcowan: so I guess it's just a generalization of that. 2020-10-13T22:34:54Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-13T22:34:57Z phoe: Bike: yes, I understood it after a while 2020-10-13T22:35:03Z Bike: yeah, i'd say it's just for regularity. 2020-10-13T22:35:12Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:35:31Z anewuser quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T22:35:42Z Bike: zero dimensions are also explicit in 15.1.1.2. still no detail on why though 2020-10-13T22:36:06Z anewuser joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:37:18Z jcowan: CLtL is quite uninformative about arrays; mostly just a list of the functions and their domains and ranges. 2020-10-13T22:37:36Z Inline: bah, this sucks, when trying to copy-paste from my console in sbcl repl, the shortcut C-c throws me into the debugger in the repl 2020-10-13T22:37:55Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:38:10Z phoe: use Ctrl+Shift+C in the terminal 2020-10-13T22:38:16Z Inline: oh 2020-10-13T22:38:17Z phoe: if you have a sane terminal, that is 2020-10-13T22:38:18Z Inline: thank you 2020-10-13T22:38:23Z Inline: i'll try that 2020-10-13T22:38:27Z jcowan: Or Ctrl-Insert, if you have an Insert key 2020-10-13T22:38:29Z phoe: C-c has a different meaning in Unix terminals since it sends a signal 2020-10-13T22:38:31Z Bike: clhs doesn't say much about arrays either 2020-10-13T22:38:57Z jcowan: Standards are intentionally short on rationale, but CLtL has quite a bit of it, especially if you read between the lines. 2020-10-13T22:39:13Z Inline: works, thank you :) 2020-10-13T22:39:38Z Bike: it does say that "internally a multidimensional array is stored as a one-dimensional array", which in my opinion it shouldn't 2020-10-13T22:40:12Z phoe: shouldn't, why? 2020-10-13T22:40:13Z jcowan: It took me a long time to from the older keychords to Ctrl-[XCV]. 2020-10-13T22:40:30Z jcowan: It might not be true in specific implementations. 2020-10-13T22:40:32Z Bike: it's mandating an implementation strategy 2020-10-13T22:40:45Z Bike: i mean in practice an implementor can ignore it, but still 2020-10-13T22:41:07Z Inline: i know shift-Insert for pasting, but didn't know Ctrl-Insert for copying 2020-10-13T22:41:23Z Inline: arright, learnt a new thing hehe 2020-10-13T22:41:27Z Bike: compare e.g. with logbitp and stuff, which talk about treating an integer as being in two's complement binary regardless of what the implementation is "actually" doing 2020-10-13T22:41:31Z myall joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:41:31Z myall quit (Changing host) 2020-10-13T22:41:31Z myall joined #lisp 2020-10-13T22:41:45Z jcowan: and Shift-Delete for cutting. 2020-10-13T22:41:50Z Inline: aha 2020-10-13T22:41:53Z Bike: (something that is relevant in practice, since bignums might be sign-magnitude) 2020-10-13T22:44:26Z jcowan: Indeed, GMP and related libraries store the sign by negating the bigit count 2020-10-13T22:45:02Z no-defun-allowed: It would be very strange to not store a multi-dimensional array as a one-dimensional array in row-major order, as displacement exposes that to some extent. 2020-10-13T22:45:37Z Bike: strangeness isn't verboten 2020-10-13T22:45:45Z no-defun-allowed: I suppose not doing that is possible, but it would probably be very hard. 2020-10-13T22:47:23Z pillton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-13T22:48:55Z jcowan: Displacement would be awkward in the other reasonable system, vectors-of-vectors(-of...) 2020-10-13T22:49:09Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-13T22:49:54Z aaaaaa quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-13T22:50:19Z no-defun-allowed: A storage vector with column-major order would also be awkward. 2020-10-13T22:50:43Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-13T22:50:56Z jcowan: That's just a transposition, which is an affine transformation, which means it can be made very efficient. 2020-10-13T22:51:25Z no-defun-allowed: Right. 2020-10-13T22:51:32Z Steeve quit (Quit: end) 2020-10-13T22:53:09Z jcowan: because affine transformations are closed, so although you can't find the product in the general case unless you can ijntrospect on functions, you can definitely do it with a given list of transforms 2020-10-13T22:53:41Z jcowan: such as extraction, translation, permutation, currying, reversal, tiling, rotation, and uniform sampling 2020-10-13T22:54:08Z jcowan: to name just eight 2020-10-13T22:55:00Z Inline: not being able to specialize on &optional, is that an implementation thing or a spec thing ? 2020-10-13T22:55:08Z Bike: It is a spec thing. 2020-10-13T22:55:15Z Inline: ok 2020-10-13T22:55:29Z Inline: and you know the rationale behind it ? 2020-10-13T22:55:59Z Bike: Well, for one thing, different methods on the same generic function can hae different defaults for optional parameters. 2020-10-13T22:56:24Z Bike: the generic function itself does not provide a default, so it's not obvious what would be correct to dispatch to. 2020-10-13T22:57:23Z phoe: if you really want to, you can work around this by (defun foo (bar &optional baz) (foo-internal bar baz)) (defgeneric foo-internal (bar baz)) 2020-10-13T22:57:34Z phoe: and optionally provide a default argument there 2020-10-13T22:58:09Z aeth: I'll probably wind up abstracting over something like that with my DEFINE-FUNCTION-style macro family. 2020-10-13T22:58:28Z Inline: ok thank you phoe 2020-10-13T22:58:32Z Bike: Being able to provide different behavior for the post-required parameters is very useful, but mostly with &key rather than &optional, e.g. with make-instance 2020-10-13T22:58:34Z aeth: It's a bit complicated because defgeneric/defmethod are two separate things. 2020-10-13T22:59:23Z Bike: also, the syntax might be a little ugly since there's also the suppliedp variable. not that that couldn't be overcome. 2020-10-13T23:00:52Z Steeve joined #lisp 2020-10-13T23:01:30Z aeth: Bike: the syntax I've settled on is (variable default class-or-type suppliedp) where each one is optional after variable. Basically in order of how common it is. 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Does it try to downcase symbol names? 2020-10-14T02:14:17Z Bike: i figured it would have the cl symbols but with lower case names 2020-10-14T02:16:00Z no-defun-allowed: And (not really going to help with CLISP) doesn't...Allegro CL have a "modern" mode like that which makes people hesitate to use strings as symbol name designators? 2020-10-14T02:17:53Z lucasb quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-14T02:18:38Z Firedancer_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-14T02:18:41Z defunkydrummer quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-14T02:19:01Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-14T02:19:24Z Firedancer_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T02:19:34Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2020-10-14T02:19:47Z lonjil quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-14T02:20:07Z lonjil joined #lisp 2020-10-14T02:22:44Z tormball: *print-case* default is :UPCASE with -modern it is :downcase. But if I setq :downcase I don't have case sensitive variables like with -modern. 2020-10-14T02:25:02Z tormball: Not sure how to look in CS-COMMON-LISP-USER. I'm in the REPL and there are quite a few CS-COMMON-LISP: prefixed values but no CS-COMMON-LISP:USER. 2020-10-14T02:25:40Z no-defun-allowed: The package name is CL-COMMON-LISP-USER; I expect there to be no exported symbols (mirroring CL-USER) though. 2020-10-14T02:26:07Z no-defun-allowed: But (setf *print-case* :downcase) (in-package :cs-common-lisp-user) should replicate it, like Bike suggested. 2020-10-14T02:26:45Z sword865 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T02:26:49Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T02:35:20Z tormball: (in-package :cs-common-lisp-user) did it. Value of *print-case* doesn't seem to matter. Thank you. 2020-10-14T02:37:06Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-14T02:51:00Z tormball: Actually it only works in REPL or file not in .clisprc 2020-10-14T02:51:55Z tormball: Just noticed -modern breaks tab completion too. Not sure why. system::map-external-symbols: There is no package with name "NIL" 2020-10-14T03:01:12Z shinohai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T03:01:22Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-14T03:03:15Z shinohai joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:07:56Z ffwacom quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T03:09:40Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:09:51Z ffwacom joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:14:13Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-14T03:17:19Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:18:23Z Oladon1 quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2020-10-14T03:18:36Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:18:50Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T03:21:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:21:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T03:22:58Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:30:34Z ramHero quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T03:31:51Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T03:32:08Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T03:32:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:35:08Z sts-q quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T03:38:22Z jasom joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:39:52Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:41:08Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:41:16Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:47:58Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-10-14T03:51:44Z space_otter joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:53:52Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:56:58Z WorldControl joined #lisp 2020-10-14T03:59:39Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T04:04:37Z WorldControl quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2020-10-14T04:05:32Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T04:07:51Z beach: phoe: As usual, I am unable to understand the question. I guess, since I don't know what problem it means to solve. 2020-10-14T04:08:25Z tormball: beach: good morning 2020-10-14T04:11:25Z shinohai quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.x-git-190-d3011c6 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-14T04:11:34Z shinohai joined #lisp 2020-10-14T04:13:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T04:13:16Z kaftejiman_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T04:14:15Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-14T04:14:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T04:15:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T04:16:27Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T04:17:50Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-14T04:17:55Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-14T04:20:17Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T04:20:26Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T04:22:18Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T04:23:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T04:24:09Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T04:28:32Z tormball quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T04:30:32Z kir0ul_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-14T04:31:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T04:34:23Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T04:38:38Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T04:38:46Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T04:42:59Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T04:43:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T04:49:12Z torbo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T04:52:50Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T04:53:14Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T04:57:40Z Guest811 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:01:33Z Guest811 is now known as tamarindo 2020-10-14T05:03:29Z beach: phoe: I think I figured out where the question was asked, and I will answer it later today. 2020-10-14T05:07:50Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:08:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-14T05:08:40Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:09:44Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:11:23Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T05:11:25Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T05:11:32Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:17:54Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:18:44Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T05:18:58Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:19:48Z leedleLoo joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:19:58Z leedleLoo left #lisp 2020-10-14T05:22:46Z tamarindo left #lisp 2020-10-14T05:27:05Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:27:43Z zacts quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-14T05:29:00Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T05:29:10Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:30:00Z Guest811 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:30:35Z Guest811 left #lisp 2020-10-14T05:36:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T05:36:11Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:38:12Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:39:20Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:42:21Z zacts quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-14T05:45:07Z akoana quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-14T05:56:38Z wxie1 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:56:59Z malm joined #lisp 2020-10-14T05:57:37Z wxie quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T05:57:39Z wxie1 is now known as wxie 2020-10-14T05:59:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T05:59:34Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:04:25Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T06:04:35Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:05:16Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T06:07:11Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T06:07:41Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T06:07:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:08:36Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:14:27Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-14T06:16:30Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T06:16:39Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:19:20Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T06:19:49Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:20:01Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:32:01Z phoe: beach: YouTube, under the third video for implementing CL 2020-10-14T06:32:17Z beach: Yes, found it. Thanks! 2020-10-14T06:33:58Z phoe: beach: I have a question. Let's say that I try to call a (block nil (lambda () (return-from nil))). 2020-10-14T06:34:23Z phoe: Under what circumstances must CONTROL-ERROR be signaled, if there are any? Or is it compeltely up to the implementation? 2020-10-14T06:35:19Z beach: You mean when the anonymous function is ultimately invoked? 2020-10-14T06:35:35Z phoe: I mean like (funcall (block nil (lambda () (return-from nil)))) 2020-10-14T06:35:44Z beach: Right. 2020-10-14T06:35:48Z phoe: Is this form required to signal a control-error? In what circumstances? 2020-10-14T06:35:54Z beach: As I recall, the standard says it is undefined behavior. 2020-10-14T06:35:59Z phoe: Yes, it is UB 2020-10-14T06:36:05Z phoe: But then the page for control-error says 2020-10-14T06:36:07Z phoe: clhs control-error 2020-10-14T06:36:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_contro.htm 2020-10-14T06:36:18Z phoe: "The errors that result from giving throw a tag that is not active or from giving go or return-from a tag that is no longer dynamically available are of type control-error." 2020-10-14T06:36:51Z beach: I think that if the implementation decides to detect the situation, that's the error it must signal. 2020-10-14T06:37:01Z beach: But there is no obligation to detect it. 2020-10-14T06:37:25Z asarch quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T06:38:08Z phoe: OK - thanks 2020-10-14T06:38:13Z beach: Sure. 2020-10-14T06:40:17Z wxie quit (Quit: wxie) 2020-10-14T06:40:42Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:45:40Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:45:56Z Cymew joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:46:51Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:48:02Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:48:26Z jdz quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2020-10-14T06:48:55Z jdz joined #lisp 2020-10-14T06:51:34Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-14T07:03:49Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:15:29Z Alfr joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:17:11Z nitrix-or-treat is now known as nitrix 2020-10-14T07:17:41Z Alfr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T07:18:04Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T07:18:17Z Alfr joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:18:43Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:19:11Z Alfr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T07:26:07Z Alfr joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:26:22Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T07:27:33Z pve joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:28:50Z shinohai quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T07:29:33Z shinohai joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:30:57Z Nilby joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:32:37Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T07:33:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:37:42Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T07:39:12Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T07:39:45Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:44:02Z Qudit314159 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T07:46:24Z liberliver joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:47:22Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T07:48:59Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:51:32Z space_otter quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T07:53:02Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-10-14T07:57:50Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T07:58:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:06:39Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:07:42Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T08:08:30Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:12:53Z hendursa1 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:13:34Z Volt_ quit (Quit: ) 2020-10-14T08:13:42Z flip214: Can I tell PRINT-TO-STRING to start each new leaf in a tree (normal CONSes) in a new line? 2020-10-14T08:13:59Z flip214: currently it puts multiple lists in a line, if they're short enough. 2020-10-14T08:16:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T08:16:21Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-14T08:20:01Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:20:05Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:20:10Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T08:20:17Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:20:40Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T08:21:11Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:21:59Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T08:21:59Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:26:09Z phoe: I think you'd need to define your own pprint dispatch for that 2020-10-14T08:26:51Z flip214: phoe: thanks, feared that already ;) 2020-10-14T08:27:44Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T08:28:20Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:31:23Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T08:37:31Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T08:37:40Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:41:36Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:42:21Z shinohai quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-14T08:42:22Z shinohai_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:42:23Z wxie joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:43:27Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T08:44:38Z zacts joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:46:07Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-14T08:52:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:52:56Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T08:53:07Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-14T09:04:24Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T09:09:30Z wxie quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T09:09:34Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-10-14T09:09:49Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-14T09:15:14Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-14T09:17:50Z isaac_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T09:18:10Z isaac_ is now known as iissaacc 2020-10-14T09:18:53Z iissaacc: Can anyone point me to where I could learn to make an emacs keybind to run some CL code in the SLIME repl? 2020-10-14T09:19:56Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-10-14T09:22:10Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-14T09:26:50Z heisig: iissaacc: You mean something like (define-key global-map (kbd "C-c x") 'slime-eval-defun) ? 2020-10-14T09:30:10Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-10-14T09:32:12Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T09:36:13Z iissaacc: I want to make an #'in-package keybind, so I guess i need to define a new 'slime-eval-foo 2020-10-14T09:36:29Z iissaacc: thanks heisig ill look at the slime source 2020-10-14T09:39:00Z decentyousername joined #lisp 2020-10-14T09:43:02Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T09:43:37Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T09:44:24Z alxplorer quit (Read error: No route to host) 2020-10-14T09:45:32Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T09:58:48Z karlosz quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T10:01:41Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T10:02:17Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:05:29Z vms14 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:06:37Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-14T10:07:07Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:09:26Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:10:02Z alxplore_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:10:03Z alxplorer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T10:12:57Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:13:04Z cosimone quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T10:14:40Z alxplore_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T10:16:17Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:19:09Z _death: slime-repl supports shortcuts, so you can type ",in RET foo RET" in the repl and it will set the current package to foo 2020-10-14T10:21:40Z h4ck3r9696 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:22:00Z h4ck3r9696: Anyone familiar with usockets here ? 2020-10-14T10:23:43Z beach: Ask your question and you will find out. 2020-10-14T10:23:59Z h4ck3r9696: How do I do multithreading with it 2020-10-14T10:24:15Z h4ck3r9696: Or even select ? 2020-10-14T10:24:42Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-14T10:28:22Z no-defun-allowed: (usocket:wait-for-input :ready-only t) will do something like poll or select. 2020-10-14T10:29:34Z h4ck3r9696: ok thanks 2020-10-14T10:29:55Z no-defun-allowed: On SBCL, that will eventually select(). 2020-10-14T10:30:50Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL on a POSIX system, rather, Windows does its own thing. 2020-10-14T10:32:25Z vms14 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T10:34:28Z no-defun-allowed: You may also be interested in cl-async if you want to do asynchronous code, but I would learn synchronous sockets first, so you don't lose your mind picking up sockets and async code (if you aren't familiar with either). 2020-10-14T10:36:22Z h4ck3r9696: Can I easly integrate it with usockets? I don't think there are a lot of examples online. 2020-10-14T10:38:19Z davepdot_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T10:38:37Z no-defun-allowed: Not easily. usocket is synchronous and blocking (meaning it allows for sequential code that you can read staying in one piece), and cl-async is non-blocking and asynchronous (meaning you get a lot of "callbacks" and you have basically reinvented Node.js in your Lisp image). 2020-10-14T10:38:46Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:40:31Z h4ck3r9696: cl-async seems to be what i'm looking for. Thanks! 2020-10-14T10:40:40Z h4ck3r9696 quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 28.0.50)) 2020-10-14T10:42:26Z no-defun-allowed: Plain old multithreading is also possible using bordeaux-threads; oh dear, they've left already. 2020-10-14T10:43:54Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T10:45:24Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-14T10:45:48Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:46:46Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:47:42Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T10:47:52Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:48:00Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:51:03Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-14T10:51:38Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T10:52:06Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:52:12Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T10:52:34Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:53:02Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T10:53:37Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:53:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T10:56:02Z saganman quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T10:56:36Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T10:59:38Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T10:59:47Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:00:00Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T11:01:35Z Retropikzel joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:08:26Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:08:36Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T11:09:00Z ramHero joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:10:13Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:15:20Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T11:15:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:18:01Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-14T11:20:13Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T11:20:54Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:20:56Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:22:22Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T11:22:46Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:24:05Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T11:24:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:24:42Z dlowe: one of these days I'd really like to see a lisp implementation with a fiber/thread scheduler runtime. 2020-10-14T11:25:12Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T11:25:36Z flip214: dlowe: that's a real hard problem... priorities, fair scheduling, assignment to pthreads, ... 2020-10-14T11:25:50Z dlowe: yeah, very hard 2020-10-14T11:25:57Z flip214: "hard" as in "needs lots of code that's already done in your OS scheduler" 2020-10-14T11:26:04Z flip214: and most probably "done better" ;) 2020-10-14T11:26:49Z dlowe: I can tell you from experience that my OS scheduler gets pretty unhappy with 100k+ threads 2020-10-14T11:26:58Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T11:27:14Z dlowe: or did. Maybe it's better now. 2020-10-14T11:27:39Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-14T11:28:09Z kelamir[m]: comp.lang.lisp is now available from https://www.usenetarchives.com/threads.php?id=comp.lang.lisp&p=0 2020-10-14T11:28:32Z flip214: dlowe: yeah, but do you think your own would be much better, apart from 1 or 2 special cases that you care about? 2020-10-14T11:28:36Z no-defun-allowed: CMUCL had green threads, but that was a common survival strategy when POSIX threads weren't around (also seen in early Java). 2020-10-14T11:29:14Z flip214: I did work a few years on a c library doing fibers on pthreads... and it was no easy work 2020-10-14T11:29:32Z dlowe: flip214: my personal own? no, I have no expertise in schedulers. 2020-10-14T11:29:50Z no-defun-allowed: flip214: You just need to context switch faster than your kernel, which should be easy given you don't have to fiddle with the MMU. 2020-10-14T11:30:14Z no-defun-allowed: I say "just"... 2020-10-14T11:30:51Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: well, if you need the kernel to find out whether it makes sense to switch threads (I/O or other events), it doesn't make much difference 2020-10-14T11:31:36Z flip214: ie. doing select() and then switching to some fiber stack isn't that much different from just blocking on read() and letting the kernel to its thing 2020-10-14T11:32:26Z flip214: yeah, in principle user-space switching could save lots of CPU and memory.... but lots of things needed for a sound implementation 2020-10-14T11:32:36Z dlowe: one thing fibers have that is unambiguously positive about fibers is signal handling 2020-10-14T11:32:45Z no-defun-allowed: I think it worked well for Erlang and Go. 2020-10-14T11:32:51Z dlowe: haha, I'm not woken up yet 2020-10-14T11:32:58Z flip214: dlowe: as in unix signals?? 2020-10-14T11:33:03Z dlowe: yeah 2020-10-14T11:33:46Z flip214: what's that much better? all signals blocked, exactly one pthread that gets all of them 2020-10-14T11:33:55Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:37:30Z WorldControl joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:37:31Z WorldControl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T11:38:21Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:38:30Z xrash joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:38:40Z WorldControl joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:39:55Z aap quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T11:40:04Z aap joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:40:16Z WorldControl quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-14T11:40:30Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-14T11:40:54Z dlowe: the actual handling of the signal is made more complicated. It's not unsolvable, just annoying. 2020-10-14T11:41:24Z dlowe: yeah, I'm thinking of Erlang and Go 2020-10-14T11:41:56Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T11:42:03Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:43:22Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:43:25Z nightfly_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-14T11:43:33Z _death: this reminds me of https://github.com/aarvid/Actors 2020-10-14T11:44:11Z nightfly_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:44:45Z dlowe: I've seen better READMEs 2020-10-14T11:45:07Z _death: the linked reddit thread has more info 2020-10-14T11:45:34Z dlowe: ah, thanks 2020-10-14T11:46:04Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T11:46:08Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:47:01Z dlowe: sure sounds good 2020-10-14T11:48:06Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T11:50:53Z davepdot_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T11:50:56Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:51:13Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-14T11:52:24Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:54:41Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:55:21Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:55:32Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T11:55:36Z chrpape joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:56:26Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T11:56:37Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:56:45Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-14T11:57:16Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T11:57:30Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:00:36Z phantomics joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:01:21Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:04:49Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:05:16Z phantomics quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-14T12:05:48Z phantomics joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:09:29Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T12:09:51Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:10:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T12:13:28Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T12:13:36Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T12:14:29Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:15:29Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:21:03Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T12:21:19Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:23:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:24:26Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:25:24Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T12:25:43Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:28:45Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T12:29:17Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:29:55Z Retropikzel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T12:30:13Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-14T12:30:18Z Stanley00 quit 2020-10-14T12:31:47Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:31:47Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T12:31:55Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:33:50Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-10-14T12:36:38Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T12:36:43Z drot quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T12:37:09Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:39:04Z drot joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:42:27Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2020-10-14T12:42:43Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:43:52Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T12:44:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T12:49:12Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T12:58:43Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T13:00:48Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:00:56Z shinohai_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.x-git-190-d3011c6 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-14T13:01:05Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T13:01:58Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:02:45Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T13:06:38Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:06:49Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-14T13:11:04Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T13:12:14Z shinohai joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:16:42Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:19:27Z heisig quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T13:29:01Z semz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T13:29:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T13:29:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:29:42Z semz joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:29:56Z semz quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-14T13:30:07Z semz joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:31:46Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:38:28Z sm2n: dlowe, termite scheme 2020-10-14T13:38:48Z semz: this is possibly a cffi noob question, but is there a way to dig through a chain of foreign structs (think a->b.c->d) such that: 1. there are no allocations except for maybe the final result 2. the solution isn't to calculate the offsets by hand every time? 2020-10-14T13:39:38Z semz: it's fine if it only works for structs that are directly embedded, though if it can go across pointers that'd be even better 2020-10-14T13:40:09Z dlowe: sm2n: I'm aware of it. Not common lisp. 2020-10-14T13:41:54Z sm2n: ah, true 2020-10-14T13:43:03Z dlowe: also, it looks daed. 2020-10-14T13:43:48Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:44:23Z sm2n: also true 2020-10-14T13:45:38Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:45:43Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:45:57Z kir0ul_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:46:30Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:46:30Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-10-14T13:46:30Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:51:31Z mfiano: What's a good test you can come up with for checking if an integer is one of [4,7,10,13,..,∞] and not [0-3,5-6,8-9,11-12,..,∞]? I currently have (and (> i 1) (= 1 (mod i 3))). 2020-10-14T13:51:53Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T13:52:17Z beach: Looks good. 2020-10-14T13:52:46Z Alfr: mfiano, a cl integer is never \infty . 2020-10-14T13:53:07Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:54:31Z mfiano: Right, then replace with most-positive-fixnum if you didn't know I meant mathematically zero plus the whole number set 2020-10-14T13:54:55Z Bike: your test seems like the obvious way to do it. 2020-10-14T13:55:15Z mfiano: Ok thanks 2020-10-14T13:55:42Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T13:56:48Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:57:24Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T13:57:34Z Alfr shrugs. Wasn't a really similar question asked a week or two ago? 2020-10-14T13:57:50Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T13:58:21Z mfiano: and I stupidly used the answer without much thought, when it was wrong. The above is correct 2020-10-14T13:59:14Z alandipert quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T13:59:37Z mseddon quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-14T13:59:54Z mfiano: Writing tests after 2 weeks of coding a new project discovered the problem. 2020-10-14T14:01:35Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T14:06:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T14:10:02Z alandipert joined #lisp 2020-10-14T14:10:10Z mseddon joined #lisp 2020-10-14T14:11:22Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T14:11:49Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-14T14:16:19Z sword865 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-14T14:18:20Z srhm joined #lisp 2020-10-14T14:24:27Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-10-14T14:27:12Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T14:27:20Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T14:27:42Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T14:28:12Z madnificent quit (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-14T14:28:21Z madnificent joined #lisp 2020-10-14T14:37:04Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T14:37:53Z Psycomic joined #lisp 2020-10-14T14:40:18Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-10-14T14:41:00Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T14:42:02Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T14:42:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T14:43:19Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - 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I'm trying to use sessions only through cookies, not URL rewriting. But in my minimal example here (https://pastebin.com/iJEcD9rv), hunchentoot does URL rewriting even though it also correctly sets a cookie (seen from the developer tools): after logging in, I see an unwanted "?hunchentoot-session=..." in the URL. 2020-10-14T16:52:40Z pxpxp: This happens even with my attempt to set *rewrite-for-session-urls* to nil 2020-10-14T16:59:19Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-14T16:59:49Z jeosol quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T17:02:09Z kiroul joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:03:20Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:04:23Z jw4 quit (Quit: tot siens) 2020-10-14T17:04:31Z kir0ul_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-14T17:07:29Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:08:00Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:10:24Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T17:11:57Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:13:03Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:16:25Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T17:16:54Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:20:10Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:23:24Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:23:25Z saganman quit (Changing host) 2020-10-14T17:23:25Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:23:45Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T17:23:48Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-10-14T17:24:21Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:25:07Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:25:37Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:26:45Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T17:30:22Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:30:49Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:34:11Z Psycomic quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T17:36:05Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T17:38:10Z Psycomic joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:40:11Z sydney_locker joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:40:35Z flip214: pxpxp: the documentation says "Once a request handler has called START-SESSION, Hunchentoot uses either cookies or (if the client doesn't send the cookies back) rewrites URLs" 2020-10-14T17:40:47Z flip214: do you see incoming cookies in HT? 2020-10-14T17:43:31Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:44:43Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:44:56Z sydney_locker: i suck dick 2020-10-14T17:45:13Z sydney_locker quit (Quit: Client Quit) 2020-10-14T17:45:31Z Cthulhux: good. 2020-10-14T17:45:41Z pxpxp: I've looked at the packets with wireshark. On submission of the login form, the reply is a 302 Moved Temporarily, to new location: http://localhost:4242/?hunchentoot-session= and also a Set-Cookie to this cookie. Then my client dutifully sends back the cookie. But I understand why hunchentoot does it this way: if the user didn't send back the cookie, the session would be lost. 2020-10-14T17:46:46Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:46:54Z pxpxp: However I thought setting *rewrite-for-session-urls* to nil would make the server send the cookie but not redirect to a URL containing it. 2020-10-14T17:47:02Z edgar-rft: sydney_locker: better eat cookie! Om nom nom nom. 2020-10-14T17:47:36Z arbv quit (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in) 2020-10-14T17:49:03Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T17:50:56Z mfiano: YOu might be able to look at what clack's hunchentoot backend does. I know I've never seen it use GET query parameters for cookies. 2020-10-14T17:50:57Z pxpxp: So I'll probably only have the URL "polluted" just after login (then when I click on a link, hunchentoot knows I'm sending back the cookies and everything is fine). Still, I'd like to avoid this if possible. 2020-10-14T17:51:05Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T17:51:57Z pxpxp: Okay I'll have a look 2020-10-14T17:52:28Z mfiano: Might even be worth developing for clack so you can switch out the server in production without any server-specific code changes 2020-10-14T17:52:36Z flip214: pxpxp: I can reproduce. 2020-10-14T17:52:44Z mfiano: Or any for that matter, just a keyword swap 2020-10-14T17:52:45Z flip214: the REDIRECT function 2020-10-14T17:52:54Z flip214: takes an ADD-SESSION-ID 2020-10-14T17:53:00Z flip214: that you could set to T manually 2020-10-14T17:53:28Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:53:52Z flip214: then it works 2020-10-14T17:53:59Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:55:01Z flip214: otherwise the ?ht-s=... gets added, unless you already have a cookie or provide a more-complete url 2020-10-14T17:55:14Z flip214: pxpxp: 2020-10-14T17:55:15Z flip214: (hunchentoot:redirect "/" 2020-10-14T17:55:18Z flip214: :add-session-id nil)) 2020-10-14T17:55:20Z flip214: (hunchentoot:redirect "/login" 2020-10-14T17:55:22Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T17:55:23Z flip214: :add-session-id nil))) 2020-10-14T17:55:48Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-10-14T17:56:08Z pxpxp: It works!! Thanks! 2020-10-14T17:58:51Z pxpxp: mfiano: I've considered Clack and I understand that it's probably a superior solution, but as a beginner I decided to go for the project with good documentation (I guess this might be a frequent debate?) 2020-10-14T17:59:26Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:00:29Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-14T18:02:58Z arbv joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:05:34Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T18:08:24Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T18:10:00Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:13:07Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-14T18:13:40Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:15:41Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:15:58Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:17:02Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T18:18:07Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-14T18:20:11Z saganman quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-14T18:20:33Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T18:21:08Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:21:08Z jasom: pxpxp: the choice of hunchentoot is fine; mfiano was suggesting you look at the clack code that interfaces with hunchentoot to figure out how this can be done, since we know that clack can do this with hunchentoot 2020-10-14T18:21:51Z jasom: pxpxp: however I suspect that clack does not use hunchentoot's session management at all, so that's probably a dead-end 2020-10-14T18:22:26Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T18:22:45Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:22:48Z mfiano: Right, I was also noting that it _might_ be worth it to build on top of clack instead of hunchentoot directly, for the benefits that provides, and if you can't do it otherwise. Depends how invested you are already, etc, but it is an option. 2020-10-14T18:23:05Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T18:24:05Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:27:02Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T18:27:23Z Psycomic quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T18:27:29Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:28:05Z bocaneri quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T18:28:39Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T18:29:29Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:33:17Z jasom: Also the builtin session logic in hunchentoot looks questionable from a security point of view 2020-10-14T18:34:42Z jasom: at least it's md5ing twice that's better than it could be 2020-10-14T18:35:18Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:37:31Z jasom: and you can plug the session-verify, and inherit from session to use something more obviously correct 2020-10-14T18:39:03Z jasom: actually you can't do what I just said because regenerate-session-cookie-value is not generic nor is stringify-session. That's slightly annoying 2020-10-14T18:41:07Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:41:44Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-14T18:43:18Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-14T18:43:29Z jasom: pxpxp: try (setf hunchentoot:*content-types-for-url-rewrote* nil) ? 2020-10-14T18:43:33Z jasom: pxpxp: try (setf hunchentoot:*content-types-for-url-rewrite* nil) ? 2020-10-14T18:43:38Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T18:44:03Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:44:22Z jasom: pxpxp: that will completely disable the url rewriting if I read the code correctly 2020-10-14T18:44:34Z Psycomic joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:46:19Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:46:19Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T18:47:09Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:47:58Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T18:48:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:50:15Z pxpxp: jasom: no, it doesn't seem to work... 2020-10-14T18:51:51Z pxpxp: (if I remove the :add-session-id nil and only (setf hunchentoot:*content-types-for-url-rewrite* nil) once on server startup) 2020-10-14T18:53:15Z jasom: pxpxp: apparently there's also hunchentoot:*rewrite-for-session-urls* which is probably the better way anyways; I'll try with a quick test 2020-10-14T18:53:15Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T18:53:34Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:54:37Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T18:56:00Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-14T18:56:00Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T18:56:03Z asarch: Use Caveman2 2020-10-14T18:56:10Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:56:38Z jasom: (setf hunchentoot:*rewrite-for-session-urls* nil) ;; this works for my quick test 2020-10-14T18:58:22Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T18:58:52Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T18:59:04Z jasom: my quick test was (define-easy-handler (foo :uri "/foo") () (start-session) (redirect "/bar")) 2020-10-14T19:01:06Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T19:03:22Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T19:07:49Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-14T19:08:54Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-14T19:09:23Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - 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Was trying to understand the simple examples 2020-10-14T21:40:36Z dbotton: I guess just a style issue 2020-10-14T21:40:53Z Steeve joined #lisp 2020-10-14T21:41:37Z dbotton: if there were header files I guess would make more sense 2020-10-14T21:42:31Z dbotton: but seems like dividing spec vs implementation details not common in Lisp 2020-10-14T21:42:52Z no-defun-allowed: And you usually see DEFGENERIC in definitions of a protocol, as well as defining protocol classes. 2020-10-14T21:44:53Z Bike: it can vary. beach, for example, likes to have a separate protocol definition, like this https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/Cleavir/CST-to-AST/generic-functions.lisp 2020-10-14T21:48:16Z no-defun-allowed: My code usually has protocol files, but they're probably not as clean as beach-style, as it also contains default implementations. 2020-10-14T21:48:46Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-14T21:48:50Z aeth: I usually put defgeneric, defconstant, etc., at the very top of the first relevant file, and then the other non-defun/defmethod defines like deftype/defclass/defstruct right below them 2020-10-14T21:50:01Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-14T21:50:51Z skapate joined #lisp 2020-10-14T21:53:13Z skapata quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-14T21:55:01Z gaqwas quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-14T21:55:16Z aeth: Often it makes sense to e.g. have a file full of just define-condition or a file full of just defconstant or whatever, but those are usually larger projects, which are rare. 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cl-tcod? 2020-10-14T22:38:11Z phoe: phantomics: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1602237980#1602237980 2020-10-14T22:38:24Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-14T22:39:12Z phantomics: Thanks phoe 2020-10-14T22:44:25Z skapate is now known as skapata 2020-10-14T22:50:02Z pillton joined #lisp 2020-10-14T22:52:05Z tamarindo joined #lisp 2020-10-14T22:52:45Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-14T22:54:53Z __jrjsmrtn__ joined #lisp 2020-10-14T22:56:34Z isaac` joined #lisp 2020-10-14T22:56:37Z _jrjsmrtn quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-14T22:56:53Z isaac` is now known as iissaacc` 2020-10-14T22:58:25Z iissaacc` is now known as pornaddict 2020-10-14T23:02:17Z aaaaaa quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-14T23:03:25Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-14T23:03:51Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2020-10-14T23:06:38Z pornaddict quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 27.1) 2020-10-14T23:09:02Z notzmv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 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#lisp 2020-10-15T02:56:43Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T02:56:59Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T02:59:41Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-10-15T03:00:54Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T03:01:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T03:01:48Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2020-10-15T03:03:04Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T03:03:29Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T03:03:55Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T03:08:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T03:08:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T03:09:46Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T03:14:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T03:14:16Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T03:17:26Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T03:17:39Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T03:30:32Z Bike quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2020-10-15T03:31:14Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T03:32:25Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-15T03:34:45Z sts-q quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T03:36:13Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-10-15T03:39:22Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T03:39:31Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-15T03:44:39Z pillton: Good morning young sir. 2020-10-15T03:45:07Z beach: Hey, so you are back to stay? 2020-10-15T03:47:45Z pillton: I am going to try and be a regular. I miss the discussions and the references that come up. 2020-10-15T03:48:14Z beach: I understand. 2020-10-15T03:48:15Z pillton: e.g. I don't know who recommended "The Art of Multiprocessing Programming" but thank you. I really enjoyed it. 2020-10-15T03:48:53Z pillton: The Art of Multiprocessor Programming. 2020-10-15T03:49:11Z beach: Speaking of books, can I assume you know that phoe's book on the condition system is now (or soon?) available on Apress? 2020-10-15T03:49:25Z pillton: I was surprised to read that you didn't like AMOP. 2020-10-15T03:49:29Z pillton: No! I did not. 2020-10-15T03:50:21Z beach: Me (about AMOP)? Did I say that? 2020-10-15T03:50:48Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-15T03:51:04Z pillton: "It is not easy to understand even for Lispers. I had two attempts that I abandoned." 2020-10-15T03:51:13Z pillton: Perhaps I got the context wrong. 2020-10-15T03:51:32Z beach: That's doesn't mean I don't like it. It just means that I was not smart enough. 2020-10-15T03:52:39Z beach: It discusses hard stuff. Knowing Common Lisp is not enough to understand it. 2020-10-15T03:52:53Z pillton: Yes it does, but I find the front section quite good. 2020-10-15T03:53:20Z beach: Yes, once I was smart enough to understand it, I appreciate it very much. 2020-10-15T03:53:43Z beach: There are some quirks of course, but that's to be expected. 2020-10-15T03:53:52Z pillton: The discussion about syntactic, glue and programmatic layers really resonated with me. A lot of what I write follows that design pattern. 2020-10-15T03:54:11Z beach: I see, yes. 2020-10-15T03:57:49Z renzhi quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-15T03:59:25Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-15T04:01:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T04:01:36Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T04:13:14Z borei joined #lisp 2020-10-15T04:13:29Z borei: good morning/afternoon 2020-10-15T04:13:41Z no-defun-allowed: Hello borei. 2020-10-15T04:15:12Z borei: quick question - if i do foreign-alloc within lisp function and i don't do foreign-free - im getting memory leak ? 2020-10-15T04:15:45Z no-defun-allowed: Correct. 2020-10-15T04:16:10Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2020-10-15T04:16:29Z borei: eventually statement is a bit wide - lisp GC doesn't track any foreign allocations. 2020-10-15T04:16:56Z beach: borei: It couldn't. 2020-10-15T04:17:13Z borei: cool. 2020-10-15T04:17:16Z beach: borei: A typical Common Lisp garbage collector will move objects. 2020-10-15T04:17:34Z beach: borei: And that would break most foreign code. 2020-10-15T04:18:22Z beach: borei: It is much safer and easier to write your programs in Common Lisp. 2020-10-15T04:19:40Z wsinatra quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-15T04:20:10Z borei: yep, totally agree. im working on the rados client, which depends on librados - which is C-library, so there will be pretty big portion of code dealing with for low level memory operation. 2020-10-15T04:20:59Z borei: was looking to do pure lisp implementation for the client - but im not there yet. 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against https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1917 2020-10-15T07:38:02Z adlai: scalpl is not officially unmaintained, thus, it is reasonable to close the issue, having denied the request, if that is the distributor's intent. 2020-10-15T07:39:27Z adlai: the primary purpose for that removal request is, for lack of a better name, "defensive unlicensing" 2020-10-15T07:39:49Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-15T07:40:18Z adlai: in case anyone is worried, the code is not covered by patents; and there is a significant, although low, probability that certain copies of it will soon be covered by aggressively copyleft licenses. 2020-10-15T07:40:45Z adlai: thus, I wish to save anyone who automatically mirrors the default dist a massive headache, involving lots of unsolicited paperwork. 2020-10-15T07:41:40Z adlai: ... and if you ever include me in your software development process, please consider inviting your lawyer to my job interview. 2020-10-15T07:42:01Z adlai: 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alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-15T11:20:58Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-15T11:23:04Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-15T11:24:47Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-15T11:24:49Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T11:25:22Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-15T11:26:34Z Stanley00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T11:30:13Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-15T11:43:08Z Xach: adlai: why is the license changing? 2020-10-15T11:52:50Z phoe: I see that scalpl is in the public license, according to its current ASD file 2020-10-15T11:56:22Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-15T12:04:32Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-15T12:04:54Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-15T12:09:12Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T12:10:05Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-15T12:11:43Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2020-10-15T12:12:02Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-15T12:15:58Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the 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(without assuming that condition is not a standard class) 2020-10-15T12:35:18Z jackdaniel: :format-arguments 2020-10-15T12:35:22Z jackdaniel: s/taht/that/ 2020-10-15T12:36:05Z jackdaniel: (of course not by the caller of make-condition/error in the place where the condition is defined) 2020-10-15T12:36:19Z jackdaniel: s/error in/error, but in/ 2020-10-15T12:36:31Z phoe: propagate, as in...? you want to add that to the beginning/end of that list? 2020-10-15T12:37:42Z jackdaniel: as in (define-condition foobar ((foo :initarg :foo)) (:default-initargs :format-control "foo ~s not found" :format-arguments (list ))) 2020-10-15T12:38:26Z alxplorer quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-15T12:38:32Z jackdaniel: normally I'd do that in the after method of initialize-instance 2020-10-15T12:39:46Z phoe: AFAIK you need a custom constructor for that, so, (defun make-foobar (foo) (make-condition 'foobar :foo foo :format-arguments (list foo) ...)) 2020-10-15T12:40:10Z phoe: unless you want to write code for all implementations that are not SBCL 2020-10-15T12:40:28Z jackdaniel: sounds good ,) 2020-10-15T12:40:30Z jackdaniel: thanks 2020-10-15T12:41:00Z phoe: I mean, setting portability aside for a moment, you can use INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER on a condition object but only if you use MAKE-INSTANCE instead of MAKE-CONDITION 2020-10-15T12:41:04Z phoe: this works even on SBCL 2020-10-15T12:41:34Z jackdaniel: conforming code can't call make-instance for conditions 2020-10-15T12:41:40Z phoe: but I assume that you want to write portable code, at which point, yes 2020-10-15T12:41:49Z jackdaniel: s/portable/conforming/ ,) 2020-10-15T12:41:59Z phoe: yep 2020-10-15T12:44:29Z phoe: we could try to turn this behavior (MAKE-CONDITION that obeys the MOP initialization protocol) into an implementation extension and then complain at SBCL that CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL, CLISP, LW, and ACL already support it 2020-10-15T12:44:44Z phoe: but I've tried, and failed, at that task in the past 2020-10-15T12:45:55Z flak joined #lisp 2020-10-15T12:45:55Z rippa joined #lisp 2020-10-15T12:47:08Z adlai: Xach: a potential collaborator wants to use the AGPL; there is a remote possibility that chanl, which is a dependency, will be the subject of patent trolling lawsuits after I, and a potential collaborator, do an unhealthy amount of studying from various open-source implementations of similar ideas. 2020-10-15T12:47:20Z flak quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T12:47:20Z rippa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T12:47:49Z adlai: there should be an "and" after the semicolon there; those are two separate instances of the risk of patent trolling going from zero to epsilon. 2020-10-15T12:48:28Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-15T12:48:44Z adlai is tempted, around the two-thirds likelihood, to add some sorta "Please neither copyleft nor copyright your proposed contributions", although this is quite off-topic for here. 2020-10-15T12:49:39Z adlai: ultimately, what seems best to me right now is for scalpl itself to be outside of the default dist, although it should not require any software outside of the default dist. 2020-10-15T12:50:20Z adlai: as I've mentioned before, the current code is also replete with practices ranging from mediocre to worst. 2020-10-15T12:54:45Z nullman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T12:59:22Z Plazma left #lisp 2020-10-15T13:02:00Z Gerula quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-15T13:03:36Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:04:17Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:06:31Z adlai should also take about a decade or few to get enough familiarity with the retail investor platforms so that scalpl can speak the protocol of at least one regular stock exchange 2020-10-15T13:07:07Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-15T13:07:22Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:08:07Z logo4poop quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T13:08:17Z logo4poop joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:08:20Z adlai: so far, it has been mostly speaking to various 'greysuit' digital currency exchanges, during the happy years before they get love letters from government agencies; it is a fun game, and quite useful for a certain class of people, although still - quite a narrow niche. 2020-10-15T13:08:23Z tamarindo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T13:16:08Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-15T13:21:39Z adlai: phoe: I explicitly wrote "public domain", and never included any copyright notice in the scalpl files, because I do not consider that tool an innovation, by this point in human history. 2020-10-15T13:22:40Z srhm joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:23:55Z adlai: if the specific names of classes that I divined out of smoke, coffee grounds, and conversations with my dog, along with the various inconsistencies of imprecise arithmetic found in that repository, happen to be considered an invention... that's someone else's problem :) 2020-10-15T13:24:03Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-15T13:24:42Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:26:28Z wsinatra joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:27:12Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:29:43Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T13:31:31Z jonatack quit (Quit: jonatack) 2020-10-15T13:32:03Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T13:35:32Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T13:36:23Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:36:56Z nullman joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:38:54Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:42:24Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-10-15T13:43:59Z choegusung joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:47:50Z dbotton_ quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out) 2020-10-15T13:48:57Z kiroul joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:51:59Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:56:37Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-15T13:56:50Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-10-15T13:57:13Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T13:57:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:01:15Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T14:04:07Z Achylles joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:04:08Z luis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T14:04:43Z luis joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:04:44Z luis752 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T14:05:19Z luis3 joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:05:20Z luis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T14:05:20Z luis3 is now known as luis 2020-10-15T14:05:48Z luis3 joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:05:49Z luis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T14:06:11Z luis3 is now known as luis 2020-10-15T14:06:14Z luis33 joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:06:42Z srhm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T14:07:08Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:07:23Z gxt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T14:07:37Z dbotton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T14:11:50Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-15T14:13:58Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T14:14:12Z Gerula joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:14:51Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:15:58Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:16:22Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:17:03Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T14:17:18Z notzmv` is now known as notzmv 2020-10-15T14:17:20Z notzmv quit (Changing host) 2020-10-15T14:17:20Z notzmv joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:17:34Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:19:12Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:22:18Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T14:23:32Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:24:28Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-15T14:24:45Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T14:27:11Z lucasb joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:30:28Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:30:56Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:31:18Z alxplorer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T14:31:28Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:31:37Z alxplorer joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:35:44Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:39:42Z dbotton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T14:39:59Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:44:01Z hhmer quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-15T14:45:32Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:46:25Z TanKian quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T14:47:27Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:52:32Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T14:52:44Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:53:07Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T14:56:24Z dbotton_: phoe - will your book come out with a kindle edition when it is released in Nov? (I want to get a copy but want digital) 2020-10-15T14:57:17Z TanKian quit (Quit: TanKian) 2020-10-15T14:58:01Z phoe: dbotton_: I have no idea 2020-10-15T14:58:21Z phoe: there is an electronic version but I have no idea if it's kindle-compatible 2020-10-15T14:58:35Z phoe: seems like it will be there 2020-10-15T14:58:37Z terpri joined #lisp 2020-10-15T14:58:52Z phoe: annnnnnnnd they've moved it to November, oh bother 2020-10-15T14:59:19Z dbotton_: I don't care which fromat just that can read on a screen :) 2020-10-15T14:59:33Z terpri_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T14:59:40Z dbotton_: otherwise have to cut and scan and I don't like doing that and wasting a book 2020-10-15T15:00:11Z Alfr_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-15T15:00:24Z dbotton_: I look forward to reading 2020-10-15T15:00:26Z dbotton_: it 2020-10-15T15:01:33Z edgar-rft: dbotton_: you could glue the paper onto a screen if that helps 2020-10-15T15:02:24Z TanKian joined #lisp 2020-10-15T15:03:30Z dbotton_: the issue is carrying it around and magnification 2020-10-15T15:03:49Z dbotton_: glue would get in way of the other books I am reading too 2020-10-15T15:06:05Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-15T15:06:38Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-15T15:11:20Z adlai: of course, I forgot that other hard problem: "... and the baud rate of the patent-pending low-power high-contrast pixel-based paper-mimicking anisotropic crystal array" 2020-10-15T15:13:12Z adlai: phoe: the publisher is handling sales of the initial printings? 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2020-10-15T16:33:10Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-15T16:34:50Z adlai has edited the unwitting competitor, "pull/8", to remove the link to the author of the issue reporting the problem, to minimize the number of links. 2020-10-15T16:35:54Z adlai: the author is still named in the commit message itself, and is likely to receive an automated notification if and when either one of the pull requests is accepted. 2020-10-15T16:37:44Z adlai: I intentionally do not include the author's name in these messages, to avoid a distracting notification; the author can hunt down this conversation in the maze of automated notifications, if the issue is worth voting upon. 2020-10-15T16:39:31Z ykm quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-15T16:39:31Z dbotton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T16:40:08Z adlai: furthermore, if my pull request is preferred over Zulu-Inuoe's primarily due to the commit message, instead of the code itself, I will be significantly less likely to perform such actions again. 2020-10-15T16:40:35Z adlai: this is called, as the old shootouts encouraged, "Code as you would professionally." 2020-10-15T16:40:44Z dbotton__ joined #lisp 2020-10-15T16:41:55Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-15T16:42:38Z adlai left #lisp 2020-10-15T16:45:34Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-15T16:50:23Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T16:54:16Z rpg quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-15T16:57:37Z ykm joined #lisp 2020-10-15T16:57:58Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T17:01:12Z TanKian quit (Quit: TanKian) 2020-10-15T17:03:58Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:10:03Z toorevitimirp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T17:10:35Z phoe: dbotton_: oh! ebooks will be there 2020-10-15T17:10:53Z phoe: I just wonder if it's pdf-only or also epub/mobi/kindle... should be all of them 2020-10-15T17:12:51Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-15T17:15:01Z dbotton_ quit (Quit: -a- Connection Timed Out) 2020-10-15T17:15:23Z dbotton__ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-15T17:15:45Z Achylles joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:16:01Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:18:12Z rpg joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:19:01Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:20:38Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-15T17:22:47Z Codaraxis__ joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:23:33Z dbotton__ joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:24:47Z dbotton__: phoe great, just no presale option on amazon, so hopefully will be there mid-nov when book comes out 2020-10-15T17:25:27Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:25:27Z gaqwas quit (Changing host) 2020-10-15T17:25:27Z gaqwas joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:25:59Z Codaraxis_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T17:26:06Z dbotton__: What is the easiest gui library to use to do some playing with on windows? starting to work on so less trivial things to bring me to speed 2020-10-15T17:27:33Z ym joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:27:50Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-15T17:29:34Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:31:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:33:35Z phoe: dbotton__: there's presale on apress 2020-10-15T17:33:41Z phoe: also, I'll recommend qtools 2020-10-15T17:33:58Z jealousmonk joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:34:30Z Stanley00 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-15T17:35:19Z dbotton__: thinks i am in england... 2020-10-15T17:35:43Z phoe: thinks I am in Spain 2020-10-15T17:35:49Z phoe: (I'm in Poland) 2020-10-15T17:36:41Z dbotton__: won't let me do presale but says will be there min nov 2020-10-15T17:39:00Z Achylles quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-15T17:42:10Z Steeve joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:42:31Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:46:11Z eschatologist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T17:47:54Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-15T17:50:37Z alxplorer quit 2020-10-15T17:53:59Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:54:24Z xrash joined #lisp 2020-10-15T17:56:32Z eschatologist quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-15T18:08:51Z aartaka_d joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:09:52Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-15T18:11:27Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:13:35Z Ven`` joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:16:32Z johnjay quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T18:16:32Z lonjil quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T18:16:33Z cyraxjoe quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T18:16:34Z luis4 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T18:16:41Z lonjil2 joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:16:59Z luis3 joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:17:00Z luis quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T18:17:01Z luis3 is now known as luis 2020-10-15T18:17:36Z luis3 joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:17:38Z luis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T18:17:51Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:17:56Z dbotton__ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-15T18:18:00Z rpg: @phoe: for some reason when I googled your book, the site also thought I was in Spain. I suspect it has something to do with the redirection from Google. 2020-10-15T18:18:06Z johnjay joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:18:47Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:18:53Z phoe: rpg: possibly, hm 2020-10-15T18:19:05Z nicktick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T18:20:48Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-15T18:22:19Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:23:00Z bocaneri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T18:23:26Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-15T18:23:41Z luis3 is now known as luis 2020-10-15T18:24:15Z dbotton__ joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:24:31Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:29:14Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:30:17Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:30:17Z dbotton quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T18:30:55Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:36:03Z narodnik joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:36:29Z narodnik: hello I'm learning lisp new 2020-10-15T18:36:32Z narodnik: enjoying it so far 2020-10-15T18:36:44Z narodnik: how can I turn an s-expr into a list with racket? 2020-10-15T18:36:53Z narodnik: I tried s-exp-to-string but it errors 2020-10-15T18:37:42Z narodnik: s-exp-to-list sorry 2020-10-15T18:38:13Z Xach: narodnik: sorry, but this channel is only for common lisp 2020-10-15T18:38:21Z narodnik: i also tried (list '(1 2 3)) 2020-10-15T18:38:27Z narodnik: ahh ok 2020-10-15T18:38:45Z Xach: I don't know what's available for racket-specific help, but I think there is a #scheme channel 2020-10-15T18:38:49Z narodnik: is there a reason I should study common lisp instead? 2020-10-15T18:38:51Z narodnik: thanks 2020-10-15T18:39:45Z Xach: I prefer Common Lisp to Scheme, but I didn't try Scheme very much before switching. 2020-10-15T18:39:46Z gravicappa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T18:40:22Z narodnik is now known as narodism 2020-10-15T18:41:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-15T18:44:47Z gravicappa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 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2020-10-15T19:37:20Z _death: yeah, memset and memmove (or fill/replace if you like ;) equivalents would be nice 2020-10-15T19:38:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-15T19:39:09Z _death: but these can easily be defined by a user.. while size_t needs a grovel (although it looks like the current implementation makes "pretty safe bets") 2020-10-15T19:41:18Z jmercouris: wouldn't it be nice if C didn't exist, no more of this FFI nonsense 2020-10-15T19:41:26Z jmercouris: \/rant 2020-10-15T19:44:13Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T19:44:32Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-15T19:47:24Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-15T19:48:22Z jw4 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T19:48:47Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-15T19:49:59Z jw4 joined #lisp 2020-10-15T19:50:55Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T19:53:02Z ym quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-15T19:53:18Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-15T19:57:00Z dbotton__ joined 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ZZZzzz…) 2020-10-15T20:30:26Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:31:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T20:31:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:32:25Z narodism: thanks brj 2020-10-15T20:34:01Z sts-q: narodism: There is a #racket channel, here at freenode. It's logs are there: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/racket/2020-10-15 2020-10-15T20:34:43Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:36:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T20:37:03Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:37:25Z sts-q: Oh, i see you already arrived! :) 2020-10-15T20:37:45Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T20:37:45Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T20:37:58Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T20:38:07Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:38:59Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:39:04Z aartaka quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-15T20:39:18Z aartaka joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:39:57Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-15T20:40:05Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:40:23Z Alfr joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:41:07Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:41:12Z wsinatra quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-15T20:45:36Z grfn left #lisp 2020-10-15T20:47:00Z grfn joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:47:54Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:49:32Z Alfr quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T20:51:09Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:52:37Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-15T20:53:56Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-15T20:57:22Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T20:57:41Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-15T20:58:54Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-15T21:00:43Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-15T21:02:00Z aramaya joined #lisp 2020-10-15T21:02:50Z Xach: Are the CFFI changes in a release now? 2020-10-15T21:04:51Z aramaya: can I find a kind of lisp manpages ? 2020-10-15T21:05:05Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-15T21:05:06Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-15T21:05:12Z phoe: aramaya: the CLHS, most likely 2020-10-15T21:05:23Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/ 2020-10-15T21:06:14Z emys quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-15T21:06:37Z aartaka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-15T21:08:40Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-15T21:09:45Z narimiran quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T21:10:31Z cosimone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T21:11:43Z tamarindo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T21:14:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-15T21:16:10Z aramaya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-15T21:17:55Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2020-10-15T21:17:59Z _death: Xach: the commit is from today (although it was authored a while ago).. I will modify my public libraries accordingly in a few months from now ;) 2020-10-15T21:18:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-15T21:19:40Z Xach: _death: do you think the changes are likely to break any current cffi-using code? 2020-10-15T21:20:02Z Xach: if someone is, say, :use-ing cffi, maybe a new name conflict? 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If I have a generic function "whitespacep" and compare it with another, "make-whitespace-predicate", which returns a function that recognizes whitespace, I get these results: 2020-10-16T09:50:41Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2082 2020-10-16T09:51:22Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-16T09:51:23Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-10-16T09:51:31Z pve: Am I testing this correctly? 2020-10-16T09:52:11Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-10-16T09:52:16Z no-defun-allowed: That is quite possible, yes. 2020-10-16T09:52:18Z beach: It is always tricky to do performance analyses on such small functions. 2020-10-16T09:52:56Z pve: I'm mostly interested in whether make-whitespace-predicate "should" be faster 2020-10-16T09:53:12Z pve: I feel it should, since there is no dispatch involved 2020-10-16T09:53:25Z no-defun-allowed: whitespacep would perform method dispatch every time it is called, whereas make-whitespace-predicate only performs dispatch once. For such a small function, the runtime of method dispatch might be comparable to the runtime of your method. 2020-10-16T09:53:55Z pve: right 2020-10-16T09:53:57Z beach: no-defun-allowed: But the generic function is faster. 2020-10-16T09:54:22Z aeth: in SBCL, generic functions tend to "warm up" iirc 2020-10-16T09:54:30Z aeth: the first run is more expensive iirc 2020-10-16T09:55:04Z beach: Oh, sorry, misread the output. 2020-10-16T09:55:13Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Are you sure? I'm reading the opposite: test-1 invokes a generic function and takes 1.5 seconds, and test-2 does not and takes 0.6 seconds. 2020-10-16T09:55:17Z no-defun-allowed: Okay. 2020-10-16T09:55:26Z beach must be tired. 2020-10-16T09:55:43Z aeth: Hmm... Not noticably, though. (time (test-1)) (time (test-1)) has the second one faster, but not by much. 2020-10-16T09:56:45Z no-defun-allowed: No stress - it's Friday (evening after an electrical engineering exam here). 2020-10-16T09:57:12Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-16T09:58:57Z flip214: pve: if you test via SBCL, I like to compare the cycle counts. 2020-10-16T09:59:34Z pve: flip214: ok, seems reasonable 2020-10-16T10:07:47Z pve: is there a way to tell the compiler "I think I know what I'm doing, use only this whitespacep method and skip the dispatch"? 2020-10-16T10:07:52Z mankaev joined #lisp 2020-10-16T10:08:33Z srhm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-16T10:09:16Z flip214: GET compares the INDICATOR via EQL, and that can't be changed, right? So if I did (SETF (GET 'sym '(text :de)) "foo") I can't use GET to retrieve but have to use SYMBOL-PLIST?! 2020-10-16T10:09:28Z pve: or is the make-foo-predicate approach better in a tight loop? 2020-10-16T10:09:35Z flip214: pve: don't have a GF, or perhaps a compiler macro 2020-10-16T10:10:21Z flip214: or mark the function as INLINE and have a TYPECASE in there (with identical code, perhaps) - some past ELS used that to have the "right" optimized version for each usage 2020-10-16T10:10:53Z pve: mark a GF as inline? 2020-10-16T10:11:11Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-16T10:11:47Z scymtym: pve: maybe have a look at https://github.com/marcoheisig/fast-generic-functions 2020-10-16T10:12:52Z pve: scymtym: thanks, will do 2020-10-16T10:13:55Z pve: this is all just hypothetical btw, I was mostly just curious about how it works 2020-10-16T10:16:02Z jayspeer joined #lisp 2020-10-16T10:16:07Z jayspeer quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-16T10:16:24Z jayspeer joined #lisp 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2020-10-16T13:22:31Z Posterdati quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2020-10-16T13:24:09Z Bike joined #lisp 2020-10-16T13:24:19Z hendursa1 quit (Quit: hendursa1) 2020-10-16T13:24:57Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-16T13:27:01Z beach: _death: You could share the name with us if you like. 2020-10-16T13:27:45Z _death: http://people.dbmi.columbia.edu/~ehs7001/Buchanan-Shortliffe-1984/MYCIN%20Book.htm 2020-10-16T13:27:57Z beach: Ah. 2020-10-16T13:29:23Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-16T13:33:20Z dbotton_: is there a simple tutorial or template with good comments on the ideal way today to setup a lisp project, configs etc 2020-10-16T13:34:07Z dbotton_: like a quick start for quickslip asdf etc needed 2020-10-16T13:35:11Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-16T13:36:06Z dbotton_ is now known as dbotton 2020-10-16T13:36:13Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-16T13:36:23Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-16T13:36:37Z phoe: dbotton: https://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html 2020-10-16T13:36:44Z phoe: that's the project-setting phase 2020-10-16T13:36:48Z phoe: it assumes that quicklisp is already installed 2020-10-16T13:36:54Z dbotton: thanks 2020-10-16T13:37:04Z dbotton: that for sure have 2020-10-16T13:37:47Z _death: a less quick start may be https://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/ 2020-10-16T13:38:10Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-16T13:45:01Z srhm joined #lisp 2020-10-16T13:48:05Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-16T13:48:23Z Oladon joined #lisp 2020-10-16T13:49:09Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-16T13:50:32Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-16T13:52:10Z Oladon1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-16T13:58:15Z Lycurgus quit (Quit: Exeunt) 2020-10-16T14:01:17Z Xach: new quicklisp dist is out today 2020-10-16T14:01:41Z Xach: going to upgrade to the new sbcl and hammer away on the bug reports 2020-10-16T14:01:53Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection 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And thanks! 2020-10-16T14:05:01Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:06:18Z adlai: Xach: I am drafting a reasonably-concise and hopefully-polite literal copy of my explanation from yesterday, to place in the github issue; in case it was not clear, there is a reasonable chance that I will nix the licensing question and close the issue myself, without requiring further action from you. 2020-10-16T14:07:55Z moewe quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:11:40Z nicktick joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:12:23Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:16:10Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-16T14:16:42Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:18:00Z dbotton__ joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:18:38Z davepdotorg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-16T14:18:42Z dbotton__: _death I will take a look at that also soon, thanks! 2020-10-16T14:18:58Z dbotton__ is now known as dbotton_ 2020-10-16T14:19:06Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:20:21Z frgo joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:21:48Z dbotton_: seems like that link doesn't work 2020-10-16T14:21:57Z amb007 joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:22:05Z dbotton_: althouh maybe something local 2020-10-16T14:22:13Z amb007 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-16T14:22:19Z davepdot_ joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:23:22Z davepdotorg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-16T14:25:30Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:26:09Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:26:11Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:26:27Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:27:42Z frgo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:27:50Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:27:52Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:29:27Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:29:36Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:31:56Z enrio quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:31:58Z Posterdati quit (Excess Flood) 2020-10-16T14:33:05Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:34:25Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:36:28Z bitmapper joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:38:11Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-16T14:38:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:38:41Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:40:12Z dbotton_ joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:42:20Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-16T14:43:34Z dbotton quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:43:42Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:44:25Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:46:25Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-16T14:48:30Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:51:20Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:51:47Z enrio joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:58:26Z sjl_ joined #lisp 2020-10-16T14:58:52Z pxpxp quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-16T15:03:06Z toorevitimirp quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-16T15:03:58Z pxpxp joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:06:47Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-16T15:08:21Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-16T15:11:59Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:15:33Z hiroaki quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-16T15:17:01Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-16T15:17:05Z saganman: what's going on? 2020-10-16T15:17:17Z saganman: oops, wrong channel 2020-10-16T15:17:48Z Blukunfando left #lisp 2020-10-16T15:17:54Z narodism quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-16T15:17:58Z beach thought that maybe saganman wanted updates on works in progress. 2020-10-16T15:18:38Z ck_: beach: don't let that stop you -- please: what's going on? 2020-10-16T15:18:53Z saganman: lol beach, I wouldn't undertsnad any of that. I'm just some what better than amateur programmer. 2020-10-16T15:19:46Z beach: ck_: Nice offer, but I am quite busy actually. To summarize, I am redoing the bootstrapping procedure for SICL with improved techniques, and I just finished phase 2 a few minutes ago. 2020-10-16T15:19:48Z voidlily joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:19:49Z Xach: amateur programmers make things because they enjoy making them, which is pretty cool. 2020-10-16T15:20:26Z Xach: it is different when you make something because someone five levels above you in some hierarchy decided it should be made, and on what terms and schedule 2020-10-16T15:20:33Z beach: Yes, and that's what "amateur" means, namely a person pursuing an activity out of love. 2020-10-16T15:20:44Z saganman: beach, If my memory serves correctly, you have been working on that for long time. Good Luck! 2020-10-16T15:21:04Z beach: As opposed to "professional" which means a person pursuing an activity for money. 2020-10-16T15:21:12Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-16T15:21:14Z beach: saganman: Thanks. 2020-10-16T15:21:17Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:22:19Z beach: saganman: Since I am a very slow thinker, I often get things wrong, and then I have to ditch what I did and start over. I have learned to live with that. 2020-10-16T15:22:19Z saganman: Yeah, I don't have any plans with Lisp. Lisp history and the language piqued my interest. 2020-10-16T15:23:16Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-16T15:23:28Z saganman: nice beach, I wouldn't disturb you anymore. Good luck once again and good day. 2020-10-16T15:23:52Z beach goes back to work. 2020-10-16T15:25:59Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-16T15:26:13Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:26:51Z Xach: today quicklisp is 10 years and 1 week in beta 2020-10-16T15:26:55Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-10-16T15:27:21Z Xach: i think it will only take 9 years and 51 weeks more to be finally released 2020-10-16T15:29:36Z _death: more than halfway there! 2020-10-16T15:30:33Z Xach: just so 2020-10-16T15:31:44Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-16T15:31:54Z Nilby: Heh. Cool. Maybe my software will be ready for Quicklisp 1.0. 2020-10-16T15:32:14Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:32:52Z davepdot_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-16T15:32:55Z Nilby: But I only started it before quicklisp was in beta. 2020-10-16T15:33:11Z dbotton_: why keep it beta? 2020-10-16T15:33:20Z davepdotorg joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:33:33Z Xach: dbotton_: there are things that remain to be done 2020-10-16T15:33:48Z dbotton_: that is called 1.0 :) 2020-10-16T15:34:36Z kapil_ joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:36:31Z rgherdt quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-16T15:37:25Z davepdotorg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-16T15:38:39Z adlai: saganman: do you need suggestions of doctoral dissertations to read during your copious free time? 2020-10-16T15:38:39Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:39:27Z adlai: there are occasionally good ones, if you search finely enough. 2020-10-16T15:40:38Z saganman: adlai, if it interests me, sure 2020-10-16T15:41:48Z adlai: there is one specific dissertation, pertaining to computer programming in general, although it investigates one common lisp compiler along with a few compilers of other languages 2020-10-16T15:42:06Z adlai: and it might, quite possibly, help you understand why exactly beach's work is so important. 2020-10-16T15:42:46Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-16T15:43:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:43:48Z adlai: https://dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/dissertation/html/wheeler-trusting-trust-ddc.html 2020-10-16T15:45:01Z adlai: tl;dr is most easily visible at https://arxiv.org/abs/1004.5534 2020-10-16T15:45:55Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:49:44Z stoneglass joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:52:25Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:53:06Z saganman: nice, thanks adlai 2020-10-16T15:54:34Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:55:28Z samir joined #lisp 2020-10-16T15:57:39Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-16T16:01:22Z phoe: Xach: <3 2020-10-16T16:03:04Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-16T16:03:52Z 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2020-10-16T22:15:05Z mangul quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-16T22:25:12Z Xach: Hmm 2020-10-16T22:28:48Z dbotton_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-16T22:32:30Z amb007 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-16T22:34:39Z srhm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-16T22:38:32Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-16T22:41:55Z Ven`` quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2020-10-16T22:44:02Z phoe: hmm? 2020-10-16T22:44:08Z tychoish: mmmmm 2020-10-16T22:44:39Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTeg1txDv8w 2020-10-16T22:47:19Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-16T22:50:33Z habeangur quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-16T22:52:31Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-16T22:55:47Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-16T22:57:48Z adlai left #lisp 2020-10-16T23:03:22Z IPmonger_ quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-16T23:05:32Z Codaraxis__ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-16T23:06:11Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-16T23:06:56Z Codaraxis joined #lisp 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akoana left #lisp 2020-10-17T02:18:15Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T02:22:12Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2020-10-17T02:24:10Z detective_aoi joined #lisp 2020-10-17T02:24:14Z detectiveaoi quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-17T02:24:37Z borei joined #lisp 2020-10-17T02:25:05Z borei: good morning/afternoon everybody. 2020-10-17T02:26:28Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-17T02:27:26Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T02:29:01Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-17T02:33:06Z kapil_ joined #lisp 2020-10-17T02:41:15Z detective_aoi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T02:42:14Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-10-17T02:44:20Z isBEKaml quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-17T02:56:40Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2020-10-17T02:56:56Z Stanley00 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-17T02:57:00Z Stanley|00 joined #lisp 2020-10-17T02:59:05Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T02:59:18Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-17T02:59:34Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T03:02:47Z Alfr_ joined #lisp 2020-10-17T03:05:27Z Alfr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T03:07:14Z _paul0 joined #lisp 2020-10-17T03:08:57Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T03:09:01Z paul0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-17T03:13:43Z mrchampion quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-17T03:15:48Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2020-10-17T03:17:04Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-17T03:21:30Z beach: I started watching a talk by Robert Virding entitled "On Language Design", and I think the next time someone suggests a revision of the Common Lisp standard, I'll point them to that presentation. 2020-10-17T03:23:15Z beach: "Be very careful when making changes suggested by users" * They often don't see the whole picture of the changes they suggest. * They often don't know what they really need. * They often want help with a solution; not [with] solving a problem. 2020-10-17T03:31:36Z galex-713 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T03:32:10Z renzhi quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.3) 2020-10-17T03:33:49Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-17T03:34:58Z kapil_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-17T03:35:12Z drl joined #lisp 2020-10-17T03:40:00Z galex-713 quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 240 seconds.) 2020-10-17T03:41:14Z kapil_ joined #lisp 2020-10-17T03:41:33Z miasuji joined #lisp 2020-10-17T03:45:52Z sts-q joined #lisp 2020-10-17T03:48:47Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:03:01Z brj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-17T04:03:26Z contrapunctus: Ironic, in the context of a language which is famous for trusting that the user knows best. 2020-10-17T04:04:26Z contrapunctus: (And that it should be possible for the user, if they wish, to get involved the design of the language.) 2020-10-17T04:04:41Z brj joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:06:09Z no-defun-allowed: Arguably a user is expected to involve themselves by "extending" a language via macros. 2020-10-17T04:06:45Z skapata quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T04:06:57Z beach: Not really ironic. The users get involved by experimenting, using the existing features of the language, and only after extensive experimentation and user experience is the new proposal considered for standardization. 2020-10-17T04:07:15Z beach: I think this idea was even documented somewhere. 2020-10-17T04:07:42Z beach: As I recall, CLOS was such a feature. 2020-10-17T04:07:53Z borei: im not sure if im on right direction or not, so i need some advise. Im working on the client for rados/ceph, and im hitting the following problem. To dump lisp object (instance of class) i need to pack object into flat array. I didn't find better solution then to use CFFI. I don't know lisp so deep and if there is "pure lisp" solution for that problem. 2020-10-17T04:08:38Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:08:43Z no-defun-allowed: That is a very strange solution, and it sounds like it would get very unportable very quickly, should it depend on the memory layout of standard instances. 2020-10-17T04:08:46Z no-defun-allowed: What do you need to dump? 2020-10-17T04:09:39Z borei: from the technical stand point - all data stored in slots. 2020-10-17T04:10:07Z bhartrihari: I think it's a fine barbell strategy. Instead of finding a balance in the middle, it balances two extremes—a safe side (conforming code), and the unsafe (and volatile) side (non conforming code but with useful features, eg. OS threads). 2020-10-17T04:10:07Z bhartrihari: The conforming code will always work, and the very useful non-conforming code can be made to work when it arises. Hence gaining from both the sides. 2020-10-17T04:11:50Z borei: i'll give you example - let say you say chemical element (which represented by clos class), let say it is helium. 2020-10-17T04:12:12Z no-defun-allowed: You could store a sequence of readers for the slots you need to dump (or slot names, but readers are a much better approach should you want to modify your representation later), and then iterate over that to get the values to dump. 2020-10-17T04:12:14Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:12:28Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T04:12:32Z borei: slots are - mass, charge, number of electrons, symbol (He) and long name (helium) that info need to go to ceph object 2020-10-17T04:12:37Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:13:45Z borei: didn't get idea with readers. 2020-10-17T04:14:25Z no-defun-allowed: Supposing a class definition like (defclass element () ((mass ... :reader mass) (charge ... :reader charge) ...)), you could have a macro like (define-output-format element (mass charge electrons symbol name)) which expands to something that eventually calls your serialisation code. 2020-10-17T04:15:03Z mrchampion joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:19:41Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:20:47Z borei: how it will be packing string (name) and double (mass) to the uniformed data ? 2020-10-17T04:21:53Z borei: im losing idea 2020-10-17T04:22:40Z no-defun-allowed: That may be a property of the values stored (values have types in Lisp), or you may extend define-output-format to include types, like (define-output-format element (mass double) (charge double) (electrons unsigned-integer) (symbol string) (name string)) 2020-10-17T04:23:33Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-17T04:26:18Z borei: ok, i have type, and i can use it (and actually im using it) but i don't see solution excepts (setf (mem-ref buffer :int 0) charge) 2020-10-17T04:26:38Z borei: then im dumping buffer to ceph object 2020-10-17T04:27:40Z borei: knowing size of data stored in slot, im using proper offset and loading all data from all slots 2020-10-17T04:28:26Z borei: and buffer was created as foreign-alloc 2020-10-17T04:28:41Z borei: bottom line - very C-approach. 2020-10-17T04:30:46Z no-defun-allowed: So, what kind of format are you writing, and what consumes it? 2020-10-17T04:30:48Z asarch joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:31:11Z asarch quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-17T04:31:24Z borei: sec 2020-10-17T04:32:10Z borei: https://pastebin.com/JDcaymqU 2020-10-17T04:32:25Z borei: there are a lot of things that are hardcoded 2020-10-17T04:32:38Z borei: but you should get an idea 2020-10-17T04:32:57Z borei: that pack function is preparing object header 2020-10-17T04:33:10Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:33:28Z borei: it loads number of slots, and slots sizes into buffer 2020-10-17T04:33:29Z no-defun-allowed: Does a C library consume that structure? 2020-10-17T04:33:55Z borei: yes, then i can dump that buffer to ceph 2020-10-17T04:34:13Z no-defun-allowed: Right, well I don't have much to say about producing C structures. 2020-10-17T04:35:45Z borei: i'd be more then happy to avoid C-like data representation - but i can't find lisp way to load data of different type into allocated memory 2020-10-17T04:43:55Z miasuji quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T04:45:11Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:45:20Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:46:09Z beach: This talk by Robert Virding is quite interesting. He i an Erlang language developer, but the talk is about general principles, and he might as well talked about Common Lisp as an example of good design. Furthermore, his example of what NOT to do, fits very well with how C++ is "designed". 2020-10-17T04:46:20Z beach: *He is 2020-10-17T04:48:08Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T04:48:16Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:50:05Z emacsomancer quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-17T04:51:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T04:55:01Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:56:14Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T04:56:28Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:57:34Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-10-17T04:59:28Z Stanley|00 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T04:59:45Z mason joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:00:21Z emacsomancer joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:00:37Z shka_ joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:06:41Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T05:06:49Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:07:54Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T05:08:00Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:12:05Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:12:54Z iissaacc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T05:13:19Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:14:19Z toorevitimirp quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-17T05:16:19Z toorevitimirp joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:39:05Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T05:40:49Z Stanley00 joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:42:25Z orivej quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-17T05:44:07Z ex_nihilo joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:44:09Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T05:44:33Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:49:05Z gioyik quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-17T05:50:40Z gioyik joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:54:40Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-17T05:54:48Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T05:57:00Z bocaneri joined #lisp 2020-10-17T06:03:02Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T06:05:11Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-17T06:07:06Z shangul joined #lisp 2020-10-17T06:09:26Z gioyik quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-17T06:19:04Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-17T06:23:20Z kiroul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T06:26:25Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T06:28:05Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T06:28:12Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T06:32:32Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T06:33:08Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T06:33:24Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T06:40:02Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-17T06:40:20Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-17T06:50:02Z borei quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T06:50:08Z p_l: beach: he also made a lisp for erlang, based on CL (though not compatible and without the same standard library - the point was to enable writing in Lisp on the Erlang's Open Telecom Platform) 2020-10-17T06:57:30Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-17T07:02:53Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T07:08:18Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T07:09:08Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T07:10:25Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T07:16:46Z refpga quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-17T07:18:09Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-17T07:18:19Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-10-17T07:20:53Z Nilby joined #lisp 2020-10-17T07:21:08Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T07:24:42Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-10-17T07:26:10Z bitmapper quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2020-10-17T07:31:25Z Psycomic joined #lisp 2020-10-17T07:45:19Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-17T07:47:28Z supercoven joined #lisp 2020-10-17T07:48:42Z sonologico joined #lisp 2020-10-17T07:54:25Z beach: p_l: Oh, I see! No wonder! :) 2020-10-17T07:56:41Z iissaacc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T07:57:06Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T08:02:42Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2020-10-17T08:02:54Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T08:04:28Z Qudit314159 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T08:04:50Z narodism joined #lisp 2020-10-17T08:08:42Z pve joined #lisp 2020-10-17T08:11:03Z hendursaga quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T08:17:46Z Stanley00 quit 2020-10-17T08:26:08Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T08:30:23Z jonatack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T08:31:48Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-10-17T08:38:02Z lukego: yeah Robert is an old-school Lisp dude since before Erlang. 2020-10-17T08:39:13Z beach: I had no idea. Thanks for this information. 2020-10-17T08:44:51Z rgherdt joined #lisp 2020-10-17T08:50:03Z madage quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T08:55:20Z madage joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:07:29Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:07:56Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T09:09:30Z phoe: I have written a few things in Lisp Flavored Erlang, I even attempted a swank server once 2020-10-17T09:13:26Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:19:01Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T09:19:11Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:19:41Z phoe: it's a nice non-CL language, though functional paradigm and pattern matching enabled by default makes its syntax kinda dirty and verbose compared to CL 2020-10-17T09:20:13Z phoe: but then again, it's just Erlang with parens and a few Lispesque functions and macros to make things nicer 2020-10-17T09:21:30Z frgo_ is now known as frgo 2020-10-17T09:25:28Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:25:28Z saganman quit (Changing host) 2020-10-17T09:25:28Z saganman joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:25:53Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T09:25:56Z pankajgodbole joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:26:01Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:28:08Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-17T09:29:08Z _whitelogger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T09:31:16Z _whitelogger joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:36:58Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T09:37:47Z sugarwren joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:43:07Z random-nick quit (Quit: quit) 2020-10-17T09:45:58Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T09:46:18Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:50:58Z X-Scale` joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:51:21Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T09:51:25Z pankajgodbole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T09:51:43Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:51:49Z X-Scale quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-17T09:52:01Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale 2020-10-17T09:53:55Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:54:49Z saganman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-17T09:55:30Z random-nick joined #lisp 2020-10-17T09:56:18Z sonologico quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T09:57:53Z habeangur joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:00:14Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:00:22Z mangul quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T10:00:25Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:00:46Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:02:17Z habeangur is now known as shangul 2020-10-17T10:02:47Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T10:02:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:04:34Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-17T10:08:31Z _Posterdati_ joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:09:24Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:11:18Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T10:14:37Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-17T10:18:07Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:21:31Z aaaaaa joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:23:14Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:31:02Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T10:31:34Z bhartrihari: What problems would one want to look at while trying to improve the state of smalltalk like image based programming in CL? 2020-10-17T10:32:03Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:32:28Z no-defun-allowed: I'd like to "atomically" replace a set of functions and types, so that busy threads don't get confused if they try to use those while I'm reloading them. 2020-10-17T10:32:52Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:35:37Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-17T10:36:40Z frost-lab joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:37:28Z gopher---- joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:37:32Z gopher----: lisp is awful. 2020-10-17T10:38:28Z bhartrihari: no-defun-allowed: Thanks. That's something to think about. 2020-10-17T10:38:37Z gopher----: wha 2020-10-17T10:38:39Z gopher----: what 2020-10-17T10:38:52Z no-defun-allowed: gopher----: Who asked you? 2020-10-17T10:39:08Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:39:11Z gopher----: you 2020-10-17T10:39:33Z no-defun-allowed: I don't recall asking you anything before. 2020-10-17T10:39:44Z gopher----: what help do you need for ? 2020-10-17T10:40:16Z Gerula quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T10:40:45Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T10:40:50Z gopher----: anyway 2020-10-17T10:40:58Z gopher----: if you dont need help, dont highlight me, ok ? 2020-10-17T10:41:14Z no-defun-allowed: One easy implementation would be to have something like (with-stopped-world (ql:quickload :some-stuff)), but that doesn't help if a thread has entered the code we wish to replace. 2020-10-17T10:41:28Z no-defun-allowed: I wanted to know who asked you about how awful you think Lisp is. 2020-10-17T10:41:39Z gopher----: fuck you 2020-10-17T10:42:03Z no-defun-allowed: That wasn't very nice. 2020-10-17T10:42:13Z gopher----: yes 2020-10-17T10:42:14Z gopher----: fuck you 2020-10-17T10:42:52Z no-defun-allowed: Come on now, who shat in your cereal? 2020-10-17T10:42:58Z gopher----: bitch 2020-10-17T10:43:18Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe 2020-10-17T10:43:20Z phoe has set mode +b *!*gopher@2a03:1b20:3:f011::* 2020-10-17T10:43:20Z gopher---- [~phoe@2001:19f0:5:689f:5400:2ff:fe77:b1de] has been kicked from #lisp by phoe (gopher----) 2020-10-17T10:43:22Z ChanServ has set mode -o phoe 2020-10-17T10:44:33Z iissaacc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:45:19Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe you can get closer with first-class global environments. Compile into a copy of the current environment, work out which functions changed, wait for all the threads to leave those functions, then stop the world and install them in the current environment. 2020-10-17T10:46:02Z bhartrihari: Maybe we could find something to solve that while trying to solve the problem of serializing runtimes with multiple threads? 2020-10-17T10:46:34Z no-defun-allowed: Do you mean like save-lisp-and-die -ing in the presence of multiple threads? 2020-10-17T10:46:38Z bhartrihari: Yes 2020-10-17T10:47:25Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T10:47:31Z no-defun-allowed: The way restoration works there only really leads to one (fresh) thread coming back after you reload the image, so you could destroy all other threads to get an approximation of the solution. 2020-10-17T10:49:25Z no-defun-allowed: I can't comment on the possibility of persisting threads in an image, but alien data structures and associated state (including POSIX threads for example) and images aren't friends. 2020-10-17T10:50:01Z bhartrihari: Does smalltalk deal with this problem? 2020-10-17T10:51:09Z no-defun-allowed: I can't comment on that either. 2020-10-17T10:51:15Z bhartrihari: I see. 2020-10-17T10:52:29Z no-defun-allowed: I think old Smalltalk virtual machines implemented threads at the image level, i.e. Smalltalk would flip between contexts as a timer interrupts the virtual machine, but that's quite far from modern implementations. 2020-10-17T10:53:41Z bhartrihari: Squeak doesn't support native threads, from a cursory look at their wiki. 2020-10-17T10:53:42Z Gerula joined #lisp 2020-10-17T10:54:07Z bhartrihari: Green threads. 2020-10-17T10:54:18Z bhartrihari: They have green threads. 2020-10-17T10:54:43Z no-defun-allowed: Right. 2020-10-17T11:03:02Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T11:05:22Z tamarindo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T11:05:50Z tamarindo joined #lisp 2020-10-17T11:05:59Z refpga quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-17T11:06:11Z refpga joined #lisp 2020-10-17T11:07:11Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-17T11:09:37Z tamarindo quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-17T11:10:04Z tamarindo joined #lisp 2020-10-17T11:11:06Z ramHero quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-17T11:13:20Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-10-17T11:14:12Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T11:15:51Z shangul quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-17T11:23:07Z beach: Not surprisingly, I didn't understand the meaning of the question by bhartrihari. bhartrihari: Are you saying that currently, no Common Lisp implementation is fit for image-based development, and that you are looking for ways to improve current implementations to make such development practical? 2020-10-17T11:24:16Z hiroaki joined #lisp 2020-10-17T11:25:46Z phoe: one thing that smalltalk images commonly provide is an integrated GUI/IDE/class browser - CL currently does not have such a facility 2020-10-17T11:25:49Z srhm joined #lisp 2020-10-17T11:25:59Z phoe: s/facility/widespread facility/ 2020-10-17T11:26:02Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-17T11:30:46Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T11:32:10Z isBEKaml quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T11:32:44Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T11:32:57Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T11:35:21Z bhartrihari: beach: I'm looking to explore the problems therein, mainly to decide whether I would want to spend time making it more practical. There are certain problems which are documented in manuals for implementations like incompatibilities in images between versions. I was wondering what the concerns of the community are that have kept them from adopting that workflow more widely. 2020-10-17T11:35:48Z beach: Got it. Thanks for elaborating. 2020-10-17T11:36:36Z beach: bhartrihari: Are you aware of my CLOSOS document? 2020-10-17T11:37:40Z bhartrihari: I am. I've read parts of it, and was quite inspired by that. 2020-10-17T11:37:49Z beach: OK. Just checking. 2020-10-17T11:38:40Z beach: But you want something that can run on some "modern" operating systems? 2020-10-17T11:40:17Z bhartrihari: Not necessarily. I'm only the problems for now I guess. 2020-10-17T11:40:33Z beach: Fair enough. 2020-10-17T11:40:42Z bhartrihari: *only looking for 2020-10-17T11:41:23Z Psycomic quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-17T11:42:22Z bhartrihari: Persistence via source control is one good thing about working with text files. I still need to take a closer look at clobber for that. 2020-10-17T11:42:23Z beach: For a "modern" OS, it is true that saving and restoring an image must work correctly. 2020-10-17T11:43:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-17T11:43:22Z beach: But there are other problems. It is way too easy to break the working image in ways that can't be fixed other than starting a new one. 2020-10-17T11:44:30Z beach: First-class global environments with a pertinent set of pre-configured environments would be a start. 2020-10-17T11:45:04Z beach: Also, phoe is right. There are still a few essential tools missing. 2020-10-17T11:45:45Z lukego: bhartrihari: I'm not sure if Lisps usually have an Object>>become: method hiding somewhere, or Object>>allInstancesDo:, but I often miss those in non-Smalltalk images. 2020-10-17T11:45:58Z lukego: I suppose that I mean Class>>allInstancesDo: 2020-10-17T11:46:47Z no-defun-allowed: lukego: It's possible to write an overwrite-instance, like the one in https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm/-/blob/master/Code/Objects/MOP/rewrite-references.lisp#L36 2020-10-17T11:47:13Z bhartrihari: On binary incompatibility, sbcl manual states that nobody has been motivated enough to do a lengthy fix. I wonder if that is speculation alone, or there are any hints as to what the lengthy solutions might look like. 2020-10-17T11:48:11Z no-defun-allowed: (You probably wouldn't write it exactly like that, because we use that function to splat in the slots of an object we received into another instance.) 2020-10-17T11:49:18Z beach: bhartrihari: Doing more with standard classes, standard objects, and generic functions would help that problem. But SBCL and the other existing Common Lisp implementations were written before CLOS became part of the standard, so they add CLOS late. This means a lot of dependency on exact representation of objects. 2020-10-17T11:52:16Z bhartrihari: I don't think I understand that fully. You mean there is no standardized representation (ABI?) to conform to? 2020-10-17T11:52:58Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T11:53:09Z phoe: not in the CL world 2020-10-17T11:53:18Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T11:53:41Z phoe: every implementation has its own way of organizing and managing raw memory 2020-10-17T11:53:54Z beach: Sort of. The internal representation of objects is often visible everywhere in the system, say in the form of tag bits and such. CLOS would help abstract those dependencies away. 2020-10-17T11:56:05Z bhartrihari: I see. 2020-10-17T11:58:30Z beach: But it would be a monumental task to modify an existing implementation in that direction. 2020-10-17T11:58:37Z beach: Probably harder than to start over. 2020-10-17T11:58:57Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2020-10-17T12:00:09Z Xach: tychoish: more fixes needed for cl-grip and sbcl 2.0.9 2020-10-17T12:00:45Z Xach: https://github.com/tychoish/cl-grip/blob/main/ext/buffer.lisp#L38 2020-10-17T12:02:14Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-17T12:02:36Z brj quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T12:04:21Z brj joined #lisp 2020-10-17T12:06:55Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T12:09:30Z bhartrihari: Writing a standardized spec for that is a task in itself. Unless there's some ABI standard out there that fits the bill well. 2020-10-17T12:11:42Z beach: What kind of things would you expect in such a specification? 2020-10-17T12:12:07Z beach: Exact layout of objects? Calling conventions I suppose. 2020-10-17T12:13:54Z bhartrihari: I think layout is fine. But calling conventions would probably take it too close to the compilation target. I would like to see something that both sbcl and ECL can conform to. 2020-10-17T12:15:20Z tamarindo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T12:16:29Z tamarindo joined #lisp 2020-10-17T12:16:38Z beach: Oh! 2020-10-17T12:16:52Z bhartrihari: I do need to do more readings in ABI specs before setting expectations on that though. 2020-10-17T12:17:04Z beach: Yes, I see. 2020-10-17T12:17:45Z beach: For object layout, you may want to look in the SICL specification. I am using what I think is the simplest possible layout that will still allow for decent performance. 2020-10-17T12:18:27Z bhartrihari: Thanks. Will do. 2020-10-17T12:19:24Z refpga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T12:20:16Z supercoven_ joined #lisp 2020-10-17T12:20:27Z phoe: also you will want to do some sort of memory management in the ABI I guess 2020-10-17T12:20:49Z phoe: I mean, you will want to specify whose GC is supposed to work on a given object 2020-10-17T12:20:55Z phoe: (unless I misunderstand the problem) 2020-10-17T12:22:25Z supercoven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T12:23:11Z sm2n_: does it really matter, as long as you can convert to and from the format you make to whatever format the implementation in question uses? 2020-10-17T12:24:07Z Gerula quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-17T12:24:50Z sm2n_ is now known as sm2n 2020-10-17T12:25:47Z tamarindo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T12:26:06Z tamarindo joined #lisp 2020-10-17T12:26:11Z tamarindo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T12:26:44Z tamarindo joined #lisp 2020-10-17T12:28:06Z dmiles quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-17T12:29:21Z phoe: then we already have this 2020-10-17T12:29:24Z phoe: it's called CFFI 2020-10-17T12:34:21Z kaftejiman joined #lisp 2020-10-17T12:34:47Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-17T12:36:58Z bhartrihari: Though for now, I wasn't thinking of the possibility of two implementations running a piece of code simultaneously (that's the only case that comes to mind where we have competing GCs). Only at how that standardization can help with image based programming. 2020-10-17T12:38:05Z bhartrihari: I mean, two implementations calling into the same binary. 2020-10-17T12:41:49Z bhartrihari: I guess what it comes down to is perhaps to have a standard way to represent the "world", which multiple implementations can use. 2020-10-17T12:43:00Z beach: bhartrihari: But then the question is, what makes the difference between different implementations? Currently object layout (closely related to memory management) is an important part of that. 2020-10-17T12:45:53Z srhm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2020-10-17T12:46:43Z bhartrihari: I would need to think more about that. 2020-10-17T12:46:58Z Achylles joined #lisp 2020-10-17T12:47:00Z beach: Sure. Take your time. :) 2020-10-17T12:48:50Z enrio joined #lisp 2020-10-17T12:48:59Z enrio quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T12:50:51Z frost-lab quit (Quit: Connection closed) 2020-10-17T12:55:24Z aaaaaa: Hi all. Have anybody used Lisp for static webpage generation? I would be interested in how it was done 2020-10-17T12:58:40Z contrapunctus: aaaaaa: I believe there are innumerable solutions for that. One is listed here - https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#static-site-generators 2020-10-17T12:58:47Z jprajzne quit (Quit: jprajzne) 2020-10-17T12:59:07Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-17T12:59:15Z aaaaaa: contrapunctus: thanks 2020-10-17T12:59:31Z isBEKaml joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:03:11Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:03:17Z jprajzne quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-17T13:03:42Z jprajzne joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:04:43Z narodism quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T13:06:45Z narodism joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:08:56Z iissaacc quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-17T13:10:30Z heisig joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:13:55Z perrier-jouet joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:19:19Z habeangur joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:19:45Z brj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T13:21:02Z adlai joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:21:02Z brj joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:22:12Z mangul quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-17T13:24:43Z adlai: minion: please tell adlai about CLOSOS 2020-10-17T13:24:49Z minion: CLOSOS: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I? 2020-10-17T13:25:09Z phoe: http://metamodular.com/closos.pdf most likely 2020-10-17T13:25:15Z beach: Indeed. 2020-10-17T13:25:24Z adlai: fastest gun on the net, eh phoe ? :) 2020-10-17T13:25:30Z adlai: and thank you! 2020-10-17T13:26:16Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2020-10-17T13:30:57Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:32:32Z ex_nihilo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T13:34:19Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T13:35:35Z adlai has yet to patiently read the entire document, although it should be much more interesting than https://www.cliki.net/LLGPL and its ilk 2020-10-17T13:35:46Z skapata joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:36:15Z beach: If you feel more comfortable asking questions about it, that's fine too. 2020-10-17T13:36:47Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:37:52Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T13:38:01Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:38:45Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T13:38:56Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:38:58Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T13:42:15Z adlai is currently targeting a childishly simple goal: reducing the number of forks hosted under github.com/adlai that exist for the sole purpose of an open pull request 2020-10-17T13:43:01Z adlai: perhaps a "premature optimization", for "quarter-life crisis" values of maturity? 2020-10-17T13:43:10Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T13:43:20Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:43:37Z Alloc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T13:43:48Z Alloc joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:44:05Z adlai: the practical relevance is that I am wondering whether to adopt the websocket client library, due to the uncertain status of its dependency, 8arrow's library event-emitter 2020-10-17T13:44:37Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-17T13:44:59Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:45:25Z adlai: this is skew-parallel, and not quite orthogonal, to the licensing uncertainty hovering over scalpl. 2020-10-17T13:49:15Z adlai can't even recall whether the author's IRC nick is 8arrow or nitro_idiot ; either way, does not seem to be here right now :( 2020-10-17T13:50:36Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T13:52:55Z srhm joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:54:07Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T13:54:56Z _Posterdati_ quit (Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/) 2020-10-17T13:55:27Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:55:32Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:57:27Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T13:59:10Z adlai: I realize my current goal is arguably a waste of time; however, since my primary purpose is turning a throwaway prototype into a tool both useful and worthy of publication, and this tool is explicitly for use by for-profit enterprises, it does seem counterproductive to rely on free services. 2020-10-17T14:11:51Z jonatack joined #lisp 2020-10-17T14:13:50Z edgar-rft: Let's start a service that's only goal is to make others pay money and serve nobody 2020-10-17T14:14:32Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T14:16:54Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T14:17:48Z flip214: edgar-rft: again? 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2020-10-17T15:17:42Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T15:18:12Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:21:46Z uniminin joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:23:49Z habeangur joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:24:20Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T15:24:28Z beach: ak-coram: Did you try #sbcl? 2020-10-17T15:24:53Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:24:55Z pankajsg` joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:25:20Z ak-coram: beach: yes, no answer yet :) 2020-10-17T15:25:49Z ak-coram: thought I'd try here as well 2020-10-17T15:25:59Z pankajsg` quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-17T15:26:01Z beach: Sure. 2020-10-17T15:26:13Z mangul quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-17T15:26:24Z pankajsg joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:27:01Z renzhi joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:27:18Z uniminin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T15:28:54Z uniminin joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:29:06Z uniminin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T15:29:20Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:29:39Z uniminin joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:30:09Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:30:35Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:30:50Z ak-coram: found it, you can use %simd-pack-256-ub32s for example 2020-10-17T15:31:05Z rumbler31_: hey everyone. After perusing the latest quicklisp dist update, I am reading this code and trying to figure out what it does. https://github.com/Hexstream/enhanced-typep/blob/master/main.lisp 2020-10-17T15:31:28Z rumbler31_: specifically %typep-lambda 2020-10-17T15:31:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:32:42Z rumbler31_: it appears that if the argument is a constant, then a lambda is returned that tests a random object var against the specified type, otherwise 2020-10-17T15:32:56Z rumbler31_: the lambda calls typep on a random object name and a random type name, right? 2020-10-17T15:33:07Z uniminin quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-17T15:33:18Z uniminin joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:33:47Z uniminin quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2020-10-17T15:34:10Z uniminin joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:35:01Z rumbler31_: the code looks deceptively simple and short but i'm having trouble figuring out what it does, and what machinery behind define-compiler-macro makes it necessary 2020-10-17T15:35:07Z uniminin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T15:38:30Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T15:39:26Z adlai: rumbler31_: it's worth noting that code using define-compiler-macro should always have identical correct behavior when the forms defining the compiler macro are deleted 2020-10-17T15:40:09Z adlai: no guarantees about consistent failures, nor efficiency; although, compilers are allowed to ignore define-compiler-macro 2020-10-17T15:43:08Z adlai begins to experience anger after too much time reading common lisp in github's website, and finds himself nostalgic for paste.lisp.org 2020-10-17T15:43:19Z rumbler31_: I miss paste too.... 2020-10-17T15:43:57Z rumbler31_: running the code in the repl was illuminating. I see that we are returning forms, not the lambdas themselves 2020-10-17T15:44:35Z adlai: correct, the function in question builds a lambda form, that can be compiled into a function 2020-10-17T15:45:20Z adlai: you may want to avoid thinking of the given arguments as "random", and instead just call them the given object name, and given type name. 2020-10-17T15:45:28Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:49:02Z adlai: rumbler31_: the author[s] have published their own chat website, in another repository under that same account, in case you want to contact them directly; although please remember to update, in here, if you learn something surprising in answer to your questions there 2020-10-17T15:49:47Z oxum quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T15:49:54Z rumbler31_: the authors of paste? 2020-10-17T15:50:08Z rumbler31_: oh you mean of the code i'm reading 2020-10-17T15:50:16Z rumbler31_: coffee hasn't kicked in yet 2020-10-17T15:50:39Z rumbler31_: I'm trying to play in the repl to understand the output of the function a little better 2020-10-17T15:50:39Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:51:56Z adlai: the function in question probably returns a lambda form, instead of a literal function, to avoid preventing serialization of compiled code. 2020-10-17T15:52:19Z rumbler31_: preventing serialization? 2020-10-17T15:52:58Z adlai: yes; if you modify the code you are running so that it returns #'(lambda ...) instead of '(lambda ...), it will return a literal function object 2020-10-17T15:53:18Z adlai: that will work when you test it interactively, although it will almost certainly fail in certain compilation scenarios. 2020-10-17T15:53:54Z Gerula joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:54:04Z adlai forgets the precise syntax for doing this bad idea with quasiquote, although it is probably `#'(lambda ... ,etc) 2020-10-17T15:55:27Z oxum quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-17T15:56:20Z adlai: eh, "quasiquote" is a library. I should've just written "backquote". 2020-10-17T15:56:22Z oxum joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:57:40Z Psycomic joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:57:48Z mangul joined #lisp 2020-10-17T15:58:50Z rumbler31_: hmm 2020-10-17T15:59:19Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-17T16:00:12Z habeangur quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T16:02:34Z adlai: I hope you aren't also trying to unread projects that are removed from quicklisp... that is the garbage collector's job, not yours. 2020-10-17T16:03:16Z rumbler31_: :-) 2020-10-17T16:03:34Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T16:03:35Z rumbler31_: I need more practice reading code I didn't write 2020-10-17T16:04:51Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-17T16:06:17Z adlai: ok, read all of scalpl. it is terrible code, hitting almost all the nasty twisted corners of the standard, and it works. 2020-10-17T16:06:25Z adlai is available for questions 2020-10-17T16:06:53Z adlai: "all of XYZ" = dependencies, too :) 2020-10-17T16:07:29Z adlai: if there is a specific part of the standard that you wish to see in use, please designate it. 2020-10-17T16:08:19Z Achylles quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T16:10:25Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2020-10-17T16:10:38Z adlai: if you prefer reading better code, you can always just read your compiler. 2020-10-17T16:12:04Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-17T16:12:30Z Alfr_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T16:16:15Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T16:17:34Z nitrowheels quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T16:20:48Z nitrowheels joined #lisp 2020-10-17T16:21:04Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2020-10-17T16:23:06Z mangul is now known as shangul 2020-10-17T16:28:29Z nitrowheels quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T16:29:38Z scymtym joined #lisp 2020-10-17T16:34:13Z toorevitimirp quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2020-10-17T16:35:57Z hendursaga quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T16:37:04Z hendursaga joined #lisp 2020-10-17T17:12:34Z jesse1010 joined #lisp 2020-10-17T17:33:47Z Xach quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T17:34:54Z Inoperable quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T17:36:37Z _Ark_ quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in) 2020-10-17T17:37:25Z brj quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-17T17:38:03Z brj joined #lisp 2020-10-17T17:44:41Z ak-coram quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-17T17:45:45Z cosimone joined #lisp 2020-10-17T17:46:07Z terpri_ joined #lisp 2020-10-17T17:48:37Z terpri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T17:49:20Z drl quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2020-10-17T17:59:07Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T17:59:27Z karlosz joined #lisp 2020-10-17T18:04:45Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-17T18:06:34Z heisig quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T18:08:42Z pankajsg quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-17T18:08:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2020-10-17T18:08:59Z daphnis joined #lisp 2020-10-17T18:11:56Z daphnis: what's the cl equivalent of echo foo >bar, where bar is a named pipe? (with-open-file (s "bar" :direction :output :if-exists :supersede) (format s "foo")) doesn't seem to work. 2020-10-17T18:13:53Z Inoperable joined #lisp 2020-10-17T18:14:50Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2083#2083 2020-10-17T18:14:53Z phoe: works for me 2020-10-17T18:16:02Z narodism quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2020-10-17T18:20:17Z cosimone_ joined #lisp 2020-10-17T18:22:12Z daphnis: ah .. my test wanted a newline 2020-10-17T18:23:43Z phoe: ooh 2020-10-17T18:23:46Z cosimone__ joined #lisp 2020-10-17T18:23:56Z phoe: (format s "foo~%") then 2020-10-17T18:24:12Z cosimone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T18:24:32Z narimiran joined #lisp 2020-10-17T18:24:38Z cosimone__ is now known as cosimone 2020-10-17T18:26:50Z cosimone_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-17T18:29:16Z cosimone quit (Quit: cosimone) 2020-10-17T18:31:30Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-17T18:32:13Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-17T18:44:15Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-17T18:44:53Z 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uses lists somewhere, but IPL "invented" lists so it wouldn't be much of a point. 2020-10-17T23:39:48Z mega_hater: fak uu 2020-10-17T23:40:00Z no-defun-allowed: Do you really have nothing better to do? 2020-10-17T23:40:08Z mega_hater: i like lisp 2020-10-17T23:40:12Z mega_hater: only for trolling 2020-10-17T23:40:14Z mega_hater: xDDD 2020-10-17T23:40:20Z Necktwi quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-17T23:40:26Z zaquest joined #lisp 2020-10-17T23:40:31Z no-defun-allowed: Not hard to guess. 2020-10-17T23:40:33Z Necktwi joined #lisp 2020-10-17T23:41:33Z rgherdt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T23:41:52Z no-defun-allowed: What makes you think it's garbage? 2020-10-17T23:42:10Z mega_hater: its awful 2020-10-17T23:42:27Z no-defun-allowed: Why is it awful? 2020-10-17T23:43:08Z mega_hater: because its nasty 2020-10-17T23:43:20Z no-defun-allowed: Why is it nasty? 2020-10-17T23:43:26Z mega_hater: because its terribal 2020-10-17T23:43:38Z no-defun-allowed: Why is it terribal? 2020-10-17T23:43:46Z mega_hater: because its horribal 2020-10-17T23:44:01Z no-defun-allowed: Is it more or less horrible than your spelling? 2020-10-17T23:44:05Z selwyn: hannibal the terribal 2020-10-17T23:44:58Z mega_hater: yes 2020-10-17T23:45:01Z mega_hater: its terribal 2020-10-17T23:45:08Z mega_hater: because its horribal 2020-10-17T23:45:24Z no-defun-allowed: That doesn't explain very much. 2020-10-17T23:45:27Z karlosz quit (Quit: karlosz) 2020-10-17T23:45:41Z mega_hater: the grox. 2020-10-17T23:45:43Z aeth: Lisp might be the worst language you've heard of, but you've heard of it. 2020-10-17T23:46:19Z mega_hater: no 2020-10-17T23:46:20Z mega_hater: its nout 2020-10-17T23:46:21Z no-defun-allowed: Which parts are terrible, horrible, nasty and/or awful? 2020-10-17T23:46:31Z mega_hater: the horribal ones 2020-10-17T23:46:37Z mega_hater: which also make them nastee 2020-10-17T23:46:47Z aeth: horriball would be a nice Halloween themed sports game 2020-10-17T23:46:50Z no-defun-allowed: Which ones are the horrible ones? 2020-10-17T23:47:12Z mega_hater: the ones which make me go choo choo, choo choo 2020-10-17T23:47:27Z no-defun-allowed: You're a part-time train? 2020-10-17T23:47:35Z mega_hater: i trian 2020-10-17T23:47:36Z mega_hater: train 2020-10-17T23:47:43Z mega_hater: whilst on the train. 2020-10-17T23:48:01Z aeth: speaking of trains... https://gitlab.com/snippets/1776926 2020-10-17T23:48:03Z mega_hater: im in pain 2020-10-17T23:48:05Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-17T23:48:11Z mega_hater: because of the lisp 2020-10-17T23:48:27Z Inline quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-17T23:48:29Z mega_hater: lisp gave me chicken pox 2020-10-17T23:48:50Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-17T23:48:53Z aeth: honestly, this is some weak trolling... if you want to troll better, pretend to be a paul graham fanboy 2020-10-17T23:48:59Z no-defun-allowed: Chicken sounds like you want #scheme then. 2020-10-17T23:49:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T23:49:46Z mega_hater left #lisp 2020-10-17T23:53:03Z mega_hater joined #lisp 2020-10-17T23:53:07Z mega_hater: i want to be creative 2020-10-17T23:53:09Z mega_hater: with lisp 2020-10-17T23:53:24Z mega_hater: does lisp support ascii art ? 2020-10-17T23:53:55Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I used a program written in Lisp to emit a Java program that had ASCII art in it for a Java assignment. 2020-10-17T23:54:15Z mega_hater: i want to create a lisp program in the shape of a vagina 2020-10-17T23:54:31Z no-defun-allowed: Though pedantically that was Unicode art, I used the box drawing characters to make each 2x2 block of pixels into one character. 2020-10-17T23:58:31Z kir0ul_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-17T23:58:59Z mega_hater quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-18T00:00:45Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-18T00:01:22Z emys joined #lisp 2020-10-18T00:02:49Z no-defun-allowed: That raises interesting questions about what constitutes "source code" for that course. That was generated code (and it had a "written by PROGRAM-NAME.lisp, do not edit" header) but I didn't get into trouble for submitting that. 2020-10-18T00:03:27Z no-defun-allowed: And I ended up changing it to 2x4 or something because most terminal fonts are taller than they are wide. A fun hack nonetheless. 2020-10-18T00:09:03Z Qudit314159 joined #lisp 2020-10-18T00:09:07Z emys quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2020-10-18T00:09:24Z igemnace quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-18T00:11:45Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-18T00:19:17Z contrapunctus left #lisp 2020-10-18T00:19:38Z contrapunctus joined #lisp 2020-10-18T00:42:27Z dbotton joined #lisp 2020-10-18T00:42:29Z bilegeek joined #lisp 2020-10-18T00:55:25Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2020-10-18T01:00:39Z torbo joined #lisp 2020-10-18T01:01:24Z mason quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-18T01:07:08Z dmc00 joined #lisp 2020-10-18T01:07:43Z perrier-jouet quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.9) 2020-10-18T01:10:25Z abhixec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2020-10-18T01:11:34Z bilegeek quit (Quit: Leaving) 2020-10-18T01:12:39Z aaaaaa quit (Quit: leaving) 2020-10-18T01:21:33Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-18T01:21:40Z rtypo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2020-10-18T01:23:23Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-18T01:27:24Z sts-q quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-18T01:31:24Z borei joined #lisp 2020-10-18T01:37:58Z Qudit314159 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2020-10-18T01:42:58Z akoana joined #lisp 2020-10-18T02:02:07Z semz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2020-10-18T02:02:29Z mason joined #lisp 2020-10-18T02:04:01Z mason quit (Client Quit) 2020-10-18T02:08:13Z orivej joined #lisp 2020-10-18T02:13:55Z shifty joined #lisp 2020-10-18T02:14:01Z galex-713 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2020-10-18T02:14:27Z galex-713 joined #lisp 2020-10-18T02:15:44Z semz joined #