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2020-10-01T02:43:42Z drmeister: I got on my hobby horse about the wonders of Common Lisp and the relative efficiency of languages on Hacker News... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24642134#24644983
2020-10-01T02:43:51Z drmeister: Some of it might amuse folks here.
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2020-10-01T02:44:49Z drmeister: “For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?” - Jane Austen
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2020-10-01T02:56:38Z bhartrihari: In Table 2 of he linked article, it's interesting that they put Rust in Object Oriented paradigm, but not Lisp.
2020-10-01T02:57:48Z bhartrihari: s/he/the
2020-10-01T02:59:07Z no-defun-allowed: It's generally acknowledged that words don't mean anything.
2020-10-01T03:00:05Z no-defun-allowed: Lisp is in the "VM" category of implementations, which is utter bullshit as well.
2020-10-01T03:01:22Z no-defun-allowed: I couldn't find what implementations were used for any of the tests, but maybe I'm not looking hard enough.
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2020-10-01T03:05:01Z no-defun-allowed: The implementation list is at the bottom of https://sites.google.com/view/energy-efficiency-languages/setup.
2020-10-01T03:05:03Z bhartrihari: no-defun-allowed: Benchmarks Game uses SBCL 2.0.8.
2020-10-01T03:05:28Z bhartrihari: (On their website)
2020-10-01T03:05:32Z no-defun-allowed: bhartrihari: Sure, but AFAICT the authors of that paper did their own experiments with their own software.
2020-10-01T03:06:20Z bhartrihari: I see.
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2020-10-01T03:08:31Z kreyren: How can i execute a file using ecl ?
2020-10-01T03:08:34Z kreyren: x.x
2020-10-01T03:08:55Z kreyren: meaning i have a hello world file with .cl extension that i want to invoke through ecl
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2020-10-01T03:10:04Z no-defun-allowed: ecl --load foo.cl?
2020-10-01T03:10:06Z drmeister: kreyren: (load "hello-world.cl")
2020-10-01T03:10:08Z aeth: kreyren: man ecl suggests --load or --shell
2020-10-01T03:10:08Z borei: good afternoon/good morning.
2020-10-01T03:10:48Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, > ;;; Loading "/home/kreyren/test.cl" < does not show `hello`
2020-10-01T03:10:53Z kreyren: checking
2020-10-01T03:11:17Z no-defun-allowed: What's in test.cl that would make it show hello?
2020-10-01T03:11:47Z kreyren: drmeister, drmeister that also doesn't run it
2020-10-01T03:11:58Z kreyren: kreyren@leonid:~$ cat test.cl  | ix
2020-10-01T03:11:58Z kreyren: http://ix.io/2zkU
2020-10-01T03:12:00Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed,
2020-10-01T03:12:16Z kreyren: also this is run in cargo-make so i ideally need to provide an argument
2020-10-01T03:12:49Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that won't print "Hello" unless evaluated from a REPL.
2020-10-01T03:13:05Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, elaborate?
2020-10-01T03:13:10Z no-defun-allowed: Try (print "Hello") -- LOAD won't print the results of what it evaluates. Also what's cargo-make?
2020-10-01T03:13:30Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, cargo-make https://github.com/sagiegurari/cargo-make
2020-10-01T03:13:37Z borei: working on the logging library, file logging pretty much completed, was trying to log to local syslog, but found that i can't write to "/dev/log" socket.
2020-10-01T03:13:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-10-01T03:14:05Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren: Mother of McCarthy...
2020-10-01T03:14:11Z drmeister: kreyren: My instructions assumed that you had already started ecl using: ecl and you have the > prompt.
2020-10-01T03:14:22Z drmeister: Say you have a hello-world.cl that looks like:
2020-10-01T03:14:23Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/tDyAq6aZ/
2020-10-01T03:14:29Z kreyren: checking
2020-10-01T03:14:51Z drmeister: Ok - I effed it up by missing a parenthesis.  Darn my hide.
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2020-10-01T03:15:26Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/oD225m91/
2020-10-01T03:16:05Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/sypVkE6L/
2020-10-01T03:17:29Z kreyren: using the `(print "Hello")` works, but i need ecl to run it and exit true unless specified otherwise where using `ecl --load file` starts an interactive session
2020-10-01T03:17:48Z no-defun-allowed: borei: /dev/log is a Unix socket and not a file. I can't remember if there are libraries for working with Unix sockets though.
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2020-10-01T03:19:29Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren: You can add (sys:quit) at the end of the file to make ECL quit after evaluating the rest.
2020-10-01T03:20:29Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, that still outputs `;;; Loading "/home/kreyren/test.cl"`
2020-10-01T03:20:44Z kreyren: which is unwanted as i want to use it as a part of a backend to compile the software cross-platform
2020-10-01T03:21:35Z no-defun-allowed: ecl -q --load foo.cl
2020-10-01T03:22:14Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, just do ecl --shell foo.cl instead
2020-10-01T03:22:21Z kreyren: leaves unwanted space https://i.imgur.com/dBZik8X.png
2020-10-01T03:22:45Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, also leaves unwanted space (ecl --shell foo.cl)
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2020-10-01T03:23:29Z no-defun-allowed: Well, do you want the quotes as well? If not, (write-line "...") will just write a line.
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2020-10-01T03:25:14Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, perfect! thanks ^-^
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2020-10-01T03:26:13Z borei: too tight to sbcl, good for now, but can be a bit restrictive  later
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2020-10-01T03:38:47Z borei: hmmm, there is no sb-bsd-socket package definition
2020-10-01T03:39:23Z borei: am i missing something ?
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2020-10-01T03:45:27Z borei: any suggestion is more then welcome
2020-10-01T03:49:32Z borei: interesting, it was working before, in sbcl 2.0.4, but got broken in 2.0.8
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2020-10-01T04:22:44Z akoana: borei: there is sb-posix:syslog
2020-10-01T04:27:05Z kreyren: How can i execute `(write-line "...")` through ecl subshell? where the usage is http://ix.io/2zl4 trying to adapt the code base to work on as many turing complete systems as possible
2020-10-01T04:28:12Z kreyren also made https://github.com/sagiegurari/cargo-make/issues/461
2020-10-01T04:28:26Z borei: non of the contrib package can be found in my system
2020-10-01T04:29:10Z akoana: borei: example:  (sb-posix:syslog 1 "test message ~d from sbcl" 42) ;; 1 is the priority
2020-10-01T04:29:20Z no-defun-allowed: Why are you using ECL...to script...um...something to do with Makefiles and Rust?
2020-10-01T04:29:50Z no-defun-allowed: (And, what makes you think it's more portable than CPython or the POSIX shell?)
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2020-10-01T04:32:35Z borei: sorted out issue with packages they need to be "required" first :-)
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2020-10-01T04:32:53Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, because i want to use rust to mess with it's embedding project for my weird implementation of bedrock linux-inspired project in something more production ready where the Makefile and cargo-make are using shell for scripting of repository management
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2020-10-01T04:33:26Z no-defun-allowed: I thought in Rust they used one too many commas to delimit things, but here you are with none.
2020-10-01T04:33:37Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, >  or the POSIX shell? < -- Because systems from 1971 usually only have bourne shell (bsh) without a good way to get POSIX sh
2020-10-01T04:33:41Z kreyren: and i hate python~
2020-10-01T04:34:02Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, eh? O.o
2020-10-01T04:34:26Z no-defun-allowed: An off-topic joke, though I need some time to parse that.
2020-10-01T04:34:45Z kreyren: o.o
2020-10-01T04:34:58Z kreyren: any relevant info to the implementation is appreciated btw ^-^
2020-10-01T04:35:14Z no-defun-allowed: I don't have any information, I'm just really confused right now.
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2020-10-01T04:35:46Z kreyren: o.o
2020-10-01T04:35:50Z kreyren: what about
2020-10-01T04:35:52Z no-defun-allowed: It seems very, very unlikely that you are going to run Common Lisp (via ECL) or Rust code on systems from 1971.
2020-10-01T04:36:37Z kreyren: from my point of view i don't see why ECL is a problem there and Rust is the challenging part as it's embedding could use some work
2020-10-01T04:38:20Z no-defun-allowed: ECL uses C99, which probably wouldn't have any compilers targeting or running on a 70s machine. (Well, someone with too much free time probably did write one, but I haven't heard of it.)
2020-10-01T04:42:21Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, what do you suggest then?
2020-10-01T04:43:05Z no-defun-allowed: Finding a language that would run on such a machine.
2020-10-01T04:49:23Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, i though that lisp is that language O.o apparently people who use legacy systems are using lisp on them
2020-10-01T04:49:35Z no-defun-allowed: Not Common Lisp.
2020-10-01T04:51:56Z kreyren: ecl apparently
2020-10-01T04:52:56Z no-defun-allowed: Definitely not ECL if you don't have a C99 compiler.
2020-10-01T04:54:26Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, is there anything more portable then ECL in terms of lisp then?
2020-10-01T04:55:02Z no-defun-allowed: I can't think of any implementation that would support an older C compiler, or would fit in memory on an old machine.
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2020-10-01T04:55:44Z kreyren: x.x
2020-10-01T04:55:57Z kreyren: like elisp works there..
2020-10-01T04:56:06Z kreyren: but that seems as terrible implementation
2020-10-01T04:56:17Z no-defun-allowed: You can run GNU Emacs on a machine from 1971?
2020-10-01T04:57:02Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, yes #emacs keeps telling me that when i am researching for emacs contribution that there are grandmas and grandpas capable of hiring a hitman that if i broke GNU Emacs on their system
2020-10-01T04:57:09Z kreyren: apparently that happend but no source was provided O.o
2020-10-01T04:58:01Z no-defun-allowed: I must really have a bad grip on time; GNU Emacs was released 14 years after the machine you have in mind.
2020-10-01T04:58:03Z kreyren: which is why GNU Emacs is using bsh for the repository management and compilation as i was told
2020-10-01T04:58:28Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, i was told that these people contributed to it to make it work on their systems
2020-10-01T04:58:50Z no-defun-allowed: That also seems very, very unlikely.
2020-10-01T04:58:52Z kreyren: apparently using that a frontend to their system
2020-10-01T04:59:01Z loke: What system are you talking about? 14 years priot to GNU Emacs? Would this me a PDP-1?
2020-10-01T04:59:14Z kreyren: LAX-something last time i checked
2020-10-01T04:59:24Z no-defun-allowed: A VAX?
2020-10-01T05:00:10Z _death: C is from 1972...
2020-10-01T05:00:12Z kreyren: no apparently some old system made by Peter Lax
2020-10-01T05:00:28Z kreyren: lemmeh check if i can find backlog
2020-10-01T05:00:32Z loke: The first VAX came out in 1977. GNU Emacs was released in 1985. However, there were earlier emacses, and there definitely was one for VMS on VAX.
2020-10-01T05:00:58Z no-defun-allowed: A more on-topic question: with CFFI, how should I get at a slot of a struct in an array?
2020-10-01T05:01:21Z loke: no-defun-allowed: You have an array of structs?
2020-10-01T05:01:28Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
2020-10-01T05:01:59Z kreyren found http://dbwilson.com/vaxmacs/
2020-10-01T05:02:05Z kreyren: so apparently VAX?
2020-10-01T05:02:37Z no-defun-allowed: Did you read that page at all?
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2020-10-01T05:02:54Z kreyren: ye but i have no idea what most of that means
2020-10-01T05:03:10Z no-defun-allowed: Does it look like it could possibly mean "This is an Emacs that runs on a VAX machine"?
2020-10-01T05:03:13Z kreyren: was told Vax Common Lisp?
2020-10-01T05:03:37Z kreyren: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vax_Common_Lisp -- > dumb-terminal IDE with Emacs-like editor (programming in Common Lisp)
2020-10-01T05:04:40Z loke: no-defun-allowed: It's been a while, but something like (cffi:foreign-slot-value (cffi:mem-aref ARRAY (:struct foo) N) '(:struct foo) NAME)
2020-10-01T05:04:59Z no-defun-allowed: Thanks!
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2020-10-01T05:28:52Z kreyren is researching VAX Common Lisp
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2020-10-01T05:35:16Z beach: kreyren: Do you have a VAX to run it on?
2020-10-01T05:42:53Z kreyren: beach, nope but i will implement a CI to run it on VAX machine if everything goes as planned
2020-10-01T05:43:32Z beach: What is a CI?
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2020-10-01T05:44:45Z no-defun-allowed: A continuous integration script, which runs when you push code to an online repository. Hopefully it uses an emulator.
2020-10-01T05:45:03Z beach: I see.  Thanks!
2020-10-01T05:47:57Z kreyren: beach, Continuous Integration
2020-10-01T05:48:06Z beach: Right, thanks.
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2020-10-01T06:16:34Z jackdaniel: no-defun-allowed: indeed ecl formally requires c99 compiler, but factually it works with the earlier standard
2020-10-01T06:17:26Z no-defun-allowed: What was before C99? C89? I think that is still some time after the age of VAXen.
2020-10-01T06:17:37Z jackdaniel: in fact it was originally written to work (among other things) on a vax machine, however that would be a surprise if it had worked there /now/ :)
2020-10-01T06:18:45Z jackdaniel: C89, yes. And it was like this from the beginning (and it still worked on VAX), so there you have it. But I don't know much about vax myself except for the name ;)
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2020-10-01T06:20:47Z jackdaniel: what is the best structure to check for membership (a set)?
2020-10-01T06:21:22Z jackdaniel: lists and vectors would require in pessimistic case checking all elements
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2020-10-01T06:21:48Z jackdaniel: alternatively I could create a hash table with keys and some dummy values, but that sounds yuck
2020-10-01T06:21:59Z no-defun-allowed: If you are okay with insertion having side effects, a hash table with elements as keys. If not, fset or cl-hamt or something.
2020-10-01T06:22:20Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2020-10-01T06:24:47Z _death: you may also use a sorted vector, or a bit set (for dense sets)
2020-10-01T06:25:23Z jackdaniel: right, but objects doesn't have any applicable order (basically they are standard object instances)
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2020-10-01T06:26:36Z _death: you can define an arbitrary order..
2020-10-01T06:27:32Z _death: but a hash table is a good way, if it supports your equality test
2020-10-01T06:28:15Z jackdaniel: arbitrary order? what do you mean?
2020-10-01T06:28:38Z jackdaniel: you have three opaque instances #<a> #<b> #<c>, by what means do you compare them?
2020-10-01T06:28:53Z jackdaniel: some implementations with non-moving gc could give you a pointer
2020-10-01T06:29:01Z jackdaniel: but that's it (and it is not portable)
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2020-10-01T06:29:56Z _death: right, if they are opaque then you may not be able to order them.. this would also rule out fset btw
2020-10-01T06:30:42Z _death: or at least make it degenerate into a linear search
2020-10-01T06:31:03Z jackdaniel: alright, I'll stick with a hash table, thanks
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2020-10-01T06:31:24Z phoe: I use an EQ hash table for that where values are eq to keys
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2020-10-01T06:31:45Z phoe: works well enough as a hashset
2020-10-01T06:31:49Z _death: then your objects shouldn't be characters or numbers
2020-10-01T06:32:19Z _death: or NIL
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2020-10-01T06:32:28Z _death: unless you use the second value
2020-10-01T06:32:49Z _death: I usually use T as the value
2020-10-01T06:33:13Z phoe: _death: yes, sorry, EQ is the best for standard objects; please adjust your test accordingly depending on the type of your objects
2020-10-01T06:33:28Z phoe: ;; and I always use the secondary value
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2020-10-01T06:47:38Z iissaacc: Could anyone familiar with Parenscript tell me why (new (-Person age shoe-size)) is giving me new(Person(age, shoeSize); instead of new Person(age, shoeSize); ?
2020-10-01T06:47:59Z iissaacc: The example is from the manual, so it should work but maybe I'm doing something wrong
2020-10-01T06:49:07Z phoe: iissaacc: (describe 'new)
2020-10-01T06:49:26Z phoe: are you sure you are using the ps-js:new symbol and not one from another package?
2020-10-01T06:49:54Z phoe: or rather, parenscript symbol, not ps-js one
2020-10-01T06:50:37Z iissaacc: let me check
2020-10-01T06:52:58Z iissaacc: yes, sure
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2020-10-01T06:57:05Z iissaacc: hmm ok i tried it within the parenscript package and it worked so something is going on...
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2020-10-01T06:57:24Z kreyren: peer-review to the implementation of common lisp in cargo-make is appreciated https://github.com/sagiegurari/cargo-make/issues/461
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2020-10-01T07:00:45Z iissaacc: ok stupid mistake. figure dit out
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2020-10-01T07:00:59Z kreyren: iissaacc, yaay
2020-10-01T07:01:21Z no-defun-allowed: "but are not designed to be compatible with each other (even though some are mostly compatible)" They are compatible! It wouldn't be a very Common Lisp otherwise.
2020-10-01T07:01:51Z no-defun-allowed: And by the sounds of things, you're only parameterizing the line to write, which would best be left to echo.
2020-10-01T07:02:04Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, i meant in lisp overview not in just common lisp if that makes sense
2020-10-01T07:02:33Z kreyren: alike elisp using cl- prefix for common lisp functions that it's reimplementing
2020-10-01T07:02:52Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, those are different languages.
2020-10-01T07:02:58Z iissaacc: i realised you need to :use #:parenscript rather than only :import-from #:parenscript #:ps
2020-10-01T07:03:26Z no-defun-allowed: Implementations of Common Lisp implement the same language. An implementation of Emacs implements a different language...
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2020-10-01T07:07:21Z beach: iissaacc: I advice against :USE-ing any package other than the CL package.
2020-10-01T07:07:58Z beach: iissaacc: With package-local nicknames, you can have short package prefixes.
2020-10-01T07:09:02Z iissaacc: yes thats what I was trying to avoid, but I don't want to have to write a prefix in front of every parenscript symbol
2020-10-01T07:09:22Z iissaacc: I think i have a macro that will solve that problem though
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2020-10-01T07:09:40Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren: So even if that implementation did work, it wouldn't do very much that you couldn't do before. (And there is an edit button somewhere on a comment.)
2020-10-01T07:09:57Z beach: Wow, the parenscript package has a nickname of PS.  That is really bad.
2020-10-01T07:10:38Z _death: iissaacc: you can import #:new
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2020-10-01T07:11:09Z no-defun-allowed uploaded an image: Screenshot_2020-10-01_17-17-20.png (36KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/bOBHWxGpLNZrABciMpMEaVaO/Screenshot_2020-10-01_17-17-20.png >
2020-10-01T07:11:13Z no-defun-allowed: Please consult this screenshot for where to find the edit button.
2020-10-01T07:11:14Z beach: iissaacc: That is a tiny inconvenience compared to the conflicts you will have to resolve when you :USE more than one package like that, and compared to the breakage you will have to fix when the parenscript package exports a new symbol that will conflict with yours.
2020-10-01T07:11:29Z iissaacc: i wrote this a while ago when i was still :use ing everything https://controlc.com/4fe05edf
2020-10-01T07:11:32Z iissaacc: bad approach?
2020-10-01T07:14:25Z beach: iissaacc: For a person reading your code, the package prefix contains valuable information.  And if you have two different packages with symbols with the same name, the package prefix immediately says where it is from.
2020-10-01T07:14:33Z _death: yes, it has all the issues of :use and more, for example it will also substitute your symbols for internal symbols
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2020-10-01T07:14:58Z _death: *substitute internal symbols for your symbols
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2020-10-01T07:15:48Z kreyren was ordering food x.x reading the backlog
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2020-10-01T07:16:32Z beach: iissaacc: And, though you are not likely to use any of the packages I am the author of, if you tried, you would have a hard time resolving all the conflicts if you were to :USE it.
2020-10-01T07:16:46Z iissaacc: i see, i see
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2020-10-01T07:17:34Z beach: And, I maintain that the fact that parenscript uses a general nickname of PS is really really bad.
2020-10-01T07:17:38Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, how is the edit button relevant?
2020-10-01T07:17:59Z beach: Imagine if I authored a PostScript package and gave it the same nickname.
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2020-10-01T07:18:11Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, where the current implementation is using the cargo-make backend to execute ecl with arguments and parses a script that is saved as a temporary file to be executed
2020-10-01T07:18:15Z schweers: I always wondered what the point of package-nicknames were
2020-10-01T07:18:25Z _death: beach: that's been the case for a long time now
2020-10-01T07:18:35Z beach: _death: What has?
2020-10-01T07:18:46Z _death: beach: that parenscript has a ps nickname
2020-10-01T07:18:50Z beach: That doesn't make any better.
2020-10-01T07:18:57Z beach: The author should be spanked.
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2020-10-01T07:19:03Z schweers: It seems like a way to use up two names in a global namespace, instead of just one.
2020-10-01T07:19:18Z beach: schweers: I totally agree.
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2020-10-01T07:20:52Z schweers: Do package local nicknames shadow regular nickames?  I.e. can I load parenscript and still have a package local nickname of ps pointing to something else?
2020-10-01T07:21:10Z jackdaniel: schweers: yes
2020-10-01T07:21:13Z iissaacc: so if parenscript function names used keywords instead, that would be better?
2020-10-01T07:21:15Z jackdaniel: they take precedence
2020-10-01T07:21:30Z schweers: So that makes the short PS nickname a little less horrible than I first thought.
2020-10-01T07:21:34Z beach: iissaacc: That's the only thing that would be worse.
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2020-10-01T07:22:30Z beach: iissaacc: Because, then, a second system doing the same thing would silently clobber the first one.
2020-10-01T07:22:38Z iissaacc: so then it seems like you can't have embedded languages without having to write pkg: in front of everything
2020-10-01T07:22:49Z iissaacc: which seems kind of ugly...
2020-10-01T07:23:00Z beach: iissaacc: You should write the package prefix, as I explained.
2020-10-01T07:23:32Z beach: iissaacc: Unless, of course, you don't ever intend for your code to be used by anyone else.
2020-10-01T07:23:36Z jackdaniel: many people do put use in their packages. that makes only sense though for packages you control yourself
2020-10-01T07:23:40Z _death: beach: I think what iissaacc meant is that parenscript (which generates javascript) would interpret keyword symbols as primitives
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2020-10-01T07:23:48Z jackdaniel: imagine two libraries changing exported symbols - suddently you have a conflict
2020-10-01T07:23:52Z beach: iissaacc: Or read by anyone else.  Then it won't matter what you do.
2020-10-01T07:23:59Z phoe: iissaacc: package-local nicknames
2020-10-01T07:24:06Z beach: _death: Ah, OK.
2020-10-01T07:24:20Z phoe: you don't need to write package-foo-bar-something: if you can write p: inside your package
2020-10-01T07:24:27Z beach: phoe: That would still be ugly according to iissaacc, as we have discussed already.
2020-10-01T07:24:27Z iissaacc: _death thats how the S-SQL in postmodern works
2020-10-01T07:24:38Z _death: iissaacc: parenscript is fine (apart from the ps nickname).. you just need to import-from the symbols that you want
2020-10-01T07:24:46Z iissaacc: right
2020-10-01T07:24:48Z phoe: iissaacc: the issue is that in Lisp, primitives are not really keywords most of the time
2020-10-01T07:25:05Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren: It is usually more polite to edit comments than make more comments with your changes.
2020-10-01T07:25:23Z phoe: SQL has a fixed set of operators/keywords and I find it sorta meaningful to use keywords there, since you can't define new ones
2020-10-01T07:25:37Z no-defun-allowed: Also, ECL is not doing very much in your case, other than writing a line you give it. It would be more useful to give it arbitrary Lisp code.
2020-10-01T07:25:43Z phoe: ;; when you do, it's already PL/SQL
2020-10-01T07:25:54Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, ah true, but considering the current environment it's probably better to kept alike  for archiving
2020-10-01T07:26:08Z phoe: whereas in JS/Parenscript I would find it kinda weird to mix functions named with keywords and functions named with non-keyword symbols
2020-10-01T07:26:30Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren: And someone can see the edited versions (by clicking on the comment date-time, which is marked as "edited").
2020-10-01T07:26:33Z phoe: especially since no one really does that in Common Lisp, which Parenscript is inspired by and lives in
2020-10-01T07:26:40Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, true O.o
2020-10-01T07:26:43Z iissaacc: yeah i see what you mean
2020-10-01T07:26:45Z phoe: either code contains no keywords in function positions whatsoever
2020-10-01T07:26:46Z no-defun-allowed: I meant the older versions.
2020-10-01T07:26:50Z phoe: (like in CL)
2020-10-01T07:26:56Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, i update the OP then
2020-10-01T07:26:58Z phoe: or it's 100% keywords in function positions, like S-SQL
2020-10-01T07:27:47Z iissaacc: alright well I learned something, thanks folks
2020-10-01T07:27:49Z _death: until a new SQL standard comes along, or some dbms extends SQL with its own primitives...
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2020-10-01T07:28:46Z iissaacc: i see a lot of :use in peoples code so i kind of thought it was all g, but it's like from x import * in python
2020-10-01T07:28:49Z phoe: _death: that will most likely need S-SQL support/update anyway
2020-10-01T07:29:04Z phoe: iissaacc: :USE was very common and recommended before PLNs became ubiquitous
2020-10-01T07:29:20Z phoe: but :USE also has its own big issues
2020-10-01T07:29:24Z jackdaniel: ubiquitous?
2020-10-01T07:29:25Z _death: phoe: that's what I mean.. then the set of symbols is not fixed
2020-10-01T07:29:35Z phoe: jackdaniel: s/ubiquitous/supported everywhere
2020-10-01T07:29:54Z phoe: _death: yes, I see; I meant, not user-extensible
2020-10-01T07:29:59Z jackdaniel: I understand what you said, but is it supported /everywhere/?
2020-10-01T07:30:14Z jackdaniel: or is it supported by 3-5 implementations
2020-10-01T07:30:16Z phoe: jackdaniel: okay, it is supported *everywhere enough* for my own tastes
2020-10-01T07:31:08Z phoe: it is supported now on SBCL, CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL, ACL, and will be supported on LW 7.2 AFAIR
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2020-10-01T07:31:52Z phoe: that's 6+1
2020-10-01T07:32:07Z phoe: CLISP has a waiting PR that implements PLNs, too.
2020-10-01T07:32:59Z jackdaniel: so that sounds more like a "gaining traction" than "ubiquitous" ,)
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2020-10-01T07:33:36Z schweers: If I recall correctly the current released version of CCL does not yet support PLNs.
2020-10-01T07:33:38Z jackdaniel: don't get me wrong, I would still recommend using PLN;
2020-10-01T07:33:44Z phoe: schweers: it does, 1.12 supports them
2020-10-01T07:33:48Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, updated OP hopefully it makes more sense now ^-^
2020-10-01T07:34:14Z schweers: Oh, cool!  Is that relatively recent?
2020-10-01T07:34:25Z schweers: Hm, april.  So no
2020-10-01T07:34:39Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren: Also, may I ask, have you considered if the program you're adding support to will run on the target machine?
2020-10-01T07:34:49Z phoe: the PR was merged in april 2019
2020-10-01T07:35:27Z phoe: a release was made in april 2020
2020-10-01T07:36:43Z _death: the clisp package on archlinux is also deficient in that it wasn't compiled with modules.. like asdf
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2020-10-01T07:38:00Z _death: and then quicklisp's asdf is 2.26.. so things like package-inferred-systems won't work
2020-10-01T07:39:13Z kreyren: no-defun-allowed, i did and i expect possible issues on the embedded side of things that i am willing to help with atm
2020-10-01T07:39:43Z kreyren: If i don't have the resources to implement that i will fall back to C-base makefile which i already have the method implemented through mentioned in the post
2020-10-01T07:39:58Z kreyren: but i expect it to not be an issue
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2020-10-01T07:43:14Z phoe: jackdaniel: right, I'll use "gaining traction" now, it's a better fit
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2020-10-01T07:49:55Z schweers: I have an instance of a regular user-defined class in a constant.  With SBCL this works fine, but CCL tells me that “No MAKE-LOAD-FORM method is defined for #<CSV-TOOLS::CSV-CONFIG #x3020040E5E6D>”.  What does this mean?
2020-10-01T07:50:25Z schweers makes a note to self: first check clhs, then ask in #lisp
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2020-10-01T07:51:24Z loke: schweers: It's trying to persist an instance of your class in the FASL file, which may not work.
2020-10-01T07:52:40Z schweers: So it seems, yes.  I’m reading the clhs on MAKE-LOAD-FORM.  It seems to me that SBCL does more work on this than CCL does.  So I’ve at the very least learned that I’m relying on SBCL to do something for me, it seems.
2020-10-01T07:55:04Z schweers: Dangit, I have to go.
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2020-10-01T07:56:34Z contrapunctus: Anyone try using cl-prevalence? https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-prevalence/ What was your experience like?
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2020-10-01T07:57:48Z loke: contrapunctus: Are you the troll from c.l.l?
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2020-10-01T07:58:12Z beach: contrapunctus: I didn't use it, but reading the documentation, I got the impression that the class hierarchy has to remain intact when you restore a checkpoint.  I may be wrong of course.
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2020-10-01T07:59:30Z beach: contrapunctus: So I wrote "Clobber" as an alternative: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clobber.  But I haven't used it for anything serious.
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2020-10-01T08:02:14Z contrapunctus: loke: I've never been on c.l.l. 🤔 what gives you that impression?
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2020-10-01T08:08:36Z contrapunctus: beach: oooh, that looks interesting 😀
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2020-10-01T08:10:40Z beach: Thanks!
2020-10-01T08:11:19Z beach: It is basically logging every transaction, so that you can create an equivalent state by replaying the log from a fresh image.
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2020-10-01T08:12:13Z beach: And since the log only mentions protocol operations, the class hierarchy does not have to remain intact between the image that created the log and the one replaying it.
2020-10-01T08:12:35Z beach: The new image has to support the same operations of course.
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2020-10-01T11:45:47Z schweers: Should (progn (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor :port 8080)) (drakma:http-request "http://localhost:8080/")) work on CCL?  It does on SBCL, but CCL signals a connection refused condition.
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2020-10-01T11:46:54Z phoe: schweers: which CCL version?
2020-10-01T11:47:30Z no-defun-allowed: I guess that would be non-deterministic if HUNCHENTOOT:START starts a thread to do its work.
2020-10-01T11:47:40Z schweers: The current one, just downloaded it
2020-10-01T11:47:45Z schweers: 1.16 I believe
2020-10-01T11:47:57Z phoe: 1.16 doesn't exist AFAIK
2020-10-01T11:47:59Z schweers: It has the same problem if I wait first
2020-10-01T11:47:59Z phoe: 1.12 is the newest
2020-10-01T11:48:25Z schweers: Yes, you’re right.  1.12.  I was mistaken
2020-10-01T11:48:42Z no-defun-allowed: For kicks, try testing both a few more times; my guess is that you'll get inconsistent behavior for both with that code.
2020-10-01T11:49:10Z schweers: Let me put it this way: I started hunchentoot on ccl and opened it default page in a browser, which works fine.
2020-10-01T11:49:23Z schweers: If I then (aferwards) use drakma, I get a connection refused condition
2020-10-01T11:49:49Z phoe: oh
2020-10-01T11:49:54Z schweers: I first also thought that it would be a threading issue, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.  At least not the way thought it might.
2020-10-01T11:49:59Z phoe: on CCL, localhost binds to ::1 instead
2020-10-01T11:50:09Z phoe: explicitly use 127.0.0.1 instead
2020-10-01T11:50:11Z schweers: netstat -tulpen tells me that port 8080 is indeed open
2020-10-01T11:50:30Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, so it's not really in a PROGN, and you take a non-negligible amount of time between both, so timing shouldn't be a problem.
2020-10-01T11:50:30Z schweers: Hm, but ::1 also binds to 127.0.0.1
2020-10-01T11:50:41Z phoe: does it? they are different addresses on different protocols
2020-10-01T11:50:45Z schweers: no-defun-allowed:  exactly.
2020-10-01T11:50:53Z schweers: Nah, ipv4 is mapped into ipv6
2020-10-01T11:51:00Z schweers: Oh wait.
2020-10-01T11:51:02Z schweers: hmmmm
2020-10-01T11:51:07Z schweers: Let me try something
2020-10-01T11:52:04Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2066#2066
2020-10-01T11:52:19Z schweers: Hunchentoot on CCL binds to "::"
2020-10-01T11:53:03Z schweers: hmmm.  Weird
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2020-10-01T11:53:15Z schweers: phoe: I can reproduce what you just posted with firefox
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2020-10-01T11:53:35Z phoe: hmmmm
2020-10-01T11:53:48Z schweers: At least I think I did it correctly
2020-10-01T11:54:34Z phoe: "In IPv4, an IP address of all zeroes has a special meaning; it refers to the host itself, and is used when a device doesn't know its own address. In IPv6 this concept has been formalized, and the all-zeroes address (0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0) is named the unspecified address."
2020-10-01T11:54:42Z phoe: that is not localhost though
2020-10-01T11:54:43Z schweers: So yes, if I explicitly use "127.0.0.1" instead of "localhost" it works.
2020-10-01T11:55:02Z phoe: ipv6 localhost is ::1
2020-10-01T11:55:08Z phoe: so this might be a CCL bug
2020-10-01T11:55:47Z flip214: phoe: do you have localhost in /etc/hosts with ::1?
2020-10-01T11:56:01Z phoe: flip214: I do
2020-10-01T11:56:25Z schweers: Oh, I accidentally uttered something untrue
2020-10-01T11:56:30Z schweers: netstat reports 0.0.0.0
2020-10-01T11:56:43Z schweers: So it indeed binds to ipv4 only
2020-10-01T11:58:39Z schweers: Passing :address "::" to the MAKE-INSTANCE invokation on the EASY-ACCEPTOR makes it work as I want.
2020-10-01T11:58:43Z schweers: Thanks for the help!
2020-10-01T11:59:44Z phoe: oh wait, I misunderstood binding and connecting
2020-10-01T11:59:57Z phoe: binding to 0.0.0.0 makes the server accessible at all ipv4 network interfaces
2020-10-01T12:00:04Z phoe: binding to :: - at all ipv6 ifaces
2020-10-01T12:00:17Z schweers: And hence all ipv4 ifaces
2020-10-01T12:00:30Z schweers: Well, on dual-stack machines.
2020-10-01T12:00:56Z schweers: If I had paid more attention to netstat’s output, I could have avoided the question entirely.
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2020-10-01T17:13:40Z jasom: Has anyone written a set of macros that can shadow all of the CL forms that have implicit progn with a version that lets you change how the implicit progn behaves?
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2020-10-01T17:14:06Z jasom: that seems like it would be slightly easier to make portable than a correct code-walker while allowing doing some things that traditionally require a code walker
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2020-10-01T17:14:44Z jasom: but it's also a lot of work because of things like tagbody, docstrings, and declarations
2020-10-01T17:14:58Z phoe: behaves? what do you mean?
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2020-10-01T17:16:34Z jasom: simple example: transform the body of the implicit progn with (mapcar (lambda (x) `(print ,x))
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2020-10-01T17:17:36Z shka_: jasom: this does not sound useful to be honest with you
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2020-10-01T17:17:38Z jasom: fancier examples might be e.g. implementing RAII that is not bound by dynamic scope; if it's not the value returned from the progn, call the cleanup form immediately
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2020-10-01T17:18:32Z jasom: though the latter would require reimplementing a lot more than just implicit progn
2020-10-01T17:18:42Z shka_: jasom: this does not sound useful either, unwind-protect is simply better there
2020-10-01T17:18:43Z jasom: e.g. OR
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2020-10-01T17:19:01Z jasom: shka_: unwind-protect is limited to cleaning up things over a dynamic scope
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2020-10-01T17:19:31Z shka_: well, you either do that, or install finalizer
2020-10-01T17:19:37Z shka_: sorry, i am not getting it
2020-10-01T17:19:40Z jasom: shka_: finalizers are not guaranteed to run ever
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2020-10-01T17:20:22Z shka_: well, if you can't determine when to run a clean up in a dynamic scope, where you can do that?
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2020-10-01T17:20:42Z shka_: this sounds like a very niche case at best?
2020-10-01T17:21:01Z shka_: and macros and niche cases is not the great combination
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2020-10-01T17:21:23Z jasom: implementing threading and delimited continuations also want to override the progn behavior usually
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2020-10-01T17:21:56Z shka_: ok, so why not implementing your own progn in that case?
2020-10-01T17:22:16Z jasom: righ.  I want to *just* implement my own progn and then plug it into let, defun *c.
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2020-10-01T17:22:31Z jasom: And I'm pretty sure a portable library could be written do to that
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2020-10-01T17:22:44Z shka_: i am sure that you are wrong here
2020-10-01T17:22:50Z shka_: let is a special symbol in lisp
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2020-10-01T17:22:59Z jasom: shka_: it would be shadowed
2020-10-01T17:23:03Z shka_: ok
2020-10-01T17:23:04Z shka_: got it
2020-10-01T17:23:06Z jasom: not-cl:let
2020-10-01T17:23:09Z jasom: rather than cl:let
2020-10-01T17:23:18Z shka_: yeah, i understand
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2020-10-01T17:24:01Z shka_: honestly, it sounds like you are trying to force CL to stop being CL and personally i never found much success with that, but good luck
2020-10-01T17:24:05Z jasom: cl-cont does a lot of things there; I may look at what they do and see if I can't factor it out into a library.  They do a lot more than just changing how progn works.
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2020-10-01T17:25:32Z jasom: I am trying to force CL to stop being CL, and the fact that CL makes this so doable is something I like about it.  control-flow and interning are two places that CL makes itself a bit hard to customize though.
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2020-10-01T17:27:13Z shka_: jasom: i share the sentiment, but as i mentioned earlier, it just never worked out for me all that well
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2020-10-01T17:27:21Z jasom: If I can prototype something I can explore more easily if it's a good or bad idea as compared to just sitting around thinking.
2020-10-01T17:27:28Z shka_: at this point i am simply taking lisp as is and built on top of it
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2020-10-01T17:27:56Z shka_: jasom: well, that sound like a fun thing to hack so sure, why not? :-)
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2020-10-01T17:28:46Z jasom: e.g. the "package names as symbols" reader I made let me notice that it requires gymnastics if you use it for actual heirarchal packages, as you usually want foo:bar:baz defined before foo:bar which is a chicken-and-egg problem.  It did make package-local-nicknames a NOP though so that was fun.
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2020-10-01T17:33:26Z Bike: if i understand what you want here, bound declarations would make it really annoying to write
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2020-10-01T17:34:44Z jasom: Bike: what is a "bound declaration"?
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2020-10-01T17:35:21Z Bike: a declaration for something bound by the operator, e.g. in (let ((x (f))) (declare (integer x) (cons y)) ...), (integer x) is a bound declaration and (cons y) is not
2020-10-01T17:35:49Z Bike: you can't just expand that into (let ((x (f))) (my-progn (declare ...) ...)) obviously, and less obviously doing my-locally is not the same
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2020-10-01T17:36:41Z jasom: Bike: can you expand it into (let (...) (declare ...) (my-progn ...)) ?
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2020-10-01T17:37:26Z Bike: mmm probably. maybe it's not that ba
2020-10-01T17:37:27Z Bike: d
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2020-10-01T17:39:27Z Bike: i think i'd need to see an example to understand the goal here, though
2020-10-01T17:39:35Z Bike: i mean progn isn't the only way to sequence operations, obviously
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2020-10-01T17:43:42Z jasom: Bike: right OR can sequence operations that return non-null values, for example.
2020-10-01T17:43:56Z jasom: and tagbody (but that could be seen as a special case of progn)
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2020-10-01T17:44:13Z Bike: prog1/2, multiple-value-prog1, function calls
2020-10-01T17:44:23Z Bike: let*
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2020-10-01T17:44:31Z Bike: (well, and let also)
2020-10-01T17:45:02Z jackdaniel: and prog, which mixes at least few of these
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2020-10-01T17:46:03Z phoe: luckily prog has an easy macroexpansion, it's just a let/block/tagbody
2020-10-01T17:46:36Z jackdaniel: maybe the latter three expand to prog? ,)
2020-10-01T17:46:43Z phoe: oh damn
2020-10-01T17:47:22Z jackdaniel: that would be problematic, you would need to prune all tags if you expand let or block
2020-10-01T17:48:14Z phoe: only if they do not name symbol macros
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2020-10-01T17:49:41Z jackdaniel: while I've never used prog in the code, I find its universal definition quite compelling
2020-10-01T17:50:09Z phoe: I think I did once, when I was writing a simple state machine
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2020-10-01T17:52:45Z phoe: oh right, https://github.com/phoe/riichi-evaluator/blob/master/src/set.lisp#L523-L568
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2020-10-01T19:09:08Z aeth: Using OR instead of PROGN for its side effects like PROGN on an API that normally doesn't return NIL is an interesting idea.
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2020-10-01T19:43:19Z jasom: (defmacro progn (&body b) `(or ,@(map 'list (lambda (x) `(and ,x t)))))
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2020-10-01T19:43:59Z jasom: whoops, forgot the last parameter to mp
2020-10-01T19:44:21Z jasom: and needs to be a butlast
2020-10-01T19:44:42Z jasom: (defmacro progn (&body b) `(or ,@(map 'list (lambda (x) `(and ,x t)) (butlast b) ,@(last b))))
2020-10-01T19:45:15Z jasom: though not sure if or preserves values
2020-10-01T19:46:38Z jasom: OR is defined to return all values returned by the last form, but only the primary value if it's anything but the last form; interesting
2020-10-01T19:47:08Z Bike: that's for the obvious implementation as (let ((value ,first)) (if value value (or ,@rest)))
2020-10-01T19:47:43Z jasom: but the behavior is well specified
2020-10-01T19:51:03Z moon-child: am I missing something?  Why not just (defmacro progn (&body b) `(funcall #'(lambda () ,@b)))
2020-10-01T19:51:28Z phoe: you are trading an explicit progn for an implicit progn
2020-10-01T19:51:29Z Bike: lambda has an implicit progn, so depending on your thinking, that's circular
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2020-10-01T20:10:13Z aeth: lambda has an implicit progn; progn has an implicit lambda... how do compilers ever finish compiling?
2020-10-01T20:10:29Z moon-child: lol
2020-10-01T20:10:32Z moon-child: 'metacircular'
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2020-10-01T20:14:10Z jasom: moon-child: the point was also that OR behaves identically to progn if each form is non-null
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2020-10-01T20:15:15Z jasom: er I have or and and backwards, but other than that what I said
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2020-10-01T20:18:44Z aeth: jasom: well, not quite identically because OR is &rest and PROGN is &body so tools will handle them differently for e.g. indentation.
2020-10-01T20:18:50Z Bike: (defmacro progn (&body b) `((lambda (&rest #1=#:r) (declare (ignore #1#)) ,@(last b)) ,@(butlast b)))
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2020-10-01T20:20:08Z aeth: I'm not really sure what a good name is, perhaps prog-every. Then you could do this: (defmacro prog-every (&body body) `(or ,@body))
2020-10-01T20:20:28Z Bike: i think "or" would be a good name for that operator
2020-10-01T20:20:34Z aeth: OR's taken though
2020-10-01T20:21:36Z Bike: (defmacro progn (&body b) (let* ((bl (butlast b)) (f (first (last b))) (syms (loop repeat (length bl) collect (gensym)))) `(let (,@(mapcar #'list syms bl)) ,f)))
2020-10-01T20:21:50Z Bike: oh, and put in the (declare (ignore ,@syms)), of course
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2020-10-01T20:25:48Z jasom: aeth: it's already fairly idiomatic to do things like (and x (foo x)) or (or x default-x)
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2020-10-01T20:44:47Z ChoHag: aeth: That's an easy problem. Implement them both in terms of a more general construct.
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2020-10-01T20:52:29Z aeth: (defmacro more-general-construct ((progn-or-lambda &rest lambda-list) &body body) (ecase progn-or-lambda (:progn (check-type lambda-list null) `(progn ,@body)) (:lambda `(lambda (,@lambda-list) ,@body))))
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2020-10-02T02:27:37Z dbotton_: is there a way to set a type for a constant?
2020-10-02T02:28:22Z no-defun-allowed: Inferring the type of a constant is trivial (always (EQL <value>)), but would (declare (<type> <name>)) work?
2020-10-02T02:28:28Z no-defun-allowed: declaim, not declare.
2020-10-02T02:28:56Z dbotton_: I'll look up :)
2020-10-02T02:29:19Z dbotton_: declare I know works on parameters of a function
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2020-10-02T02:34:08Z dbotton_: no sure that worked
2020-10-02T02:35:09Z dbotton_: I did (declaim (fixnum me2)) on a constant string me2 and no error
2020-10-02T02:35:28Z dbotton_: and could still use me2 as a string
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2020-10-02T02:36:18Z dbotton_: so not sure how that will set up a compile time check that the constant is a string
2020-10-02T02:36:25Z dbotton_: for example
2020-10-02T02:37:40Z dbotton_: perhaps in most cases this is not needed since the constant already exists when compiling code
2020-10-02T02:39:09Z dbotton_: so type inferred
2020-10-02T02:40:37Z dbotton_: but still curious if possible
2020-10-02T02:40:58Z dbotton_: and to insure human changes keep the type I want
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2020-10-02T03:00:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-02T03:17:32Z aaaaaa: beach: oh, here are you again
2020-10-02T03:17:37Z aaaaaa: beach: good morning, indeed
2020-10-02T03:17:54Z beach: aaaaaa: I am here every morning.
2020-10-02T03:18:03Z aaaaaa: beach: yes. and sometimes I reply
2020-10-02T03:18:29Z beach: Right.
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2020-10-02T03:46:53Z dbotton_: <no-defun-allowed> declaim though does work on variables
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2020-10-02T03:55:22Z dbotton_: does the compiler also assert during runtime or just at compile time using that?
2020-10-02T03:56:56Z Bike: in the standard, the consequences of a declaration being incorrect are undefined. some implementations define it to be a runtime error or compile time warning.
2020-10-02T04:01:13Z Bike: the standard does not mandate any compile time type operations of any kind. an implementation that ignores all type declarations is conformant.
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2020-10-02T04:01:35Z Bike: you can, however, get arbitrary code executed at compile time, so if you really want lisp to be ada you could maybe work something out.
2020-10-02T04:02:39Z Bike: for example, you could write (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (unless (typep me2 'string) (error 'type-error ...)))
2020-10-02T04:02:47Z Bike: with a macro, probably
2020-10-02T04:05:32Z beach: It seems to be common for people coming from statically typed languages to over-emphasize type checks and type declarations in Common Lisp.
2020-10-02T04:06:04Z dbotton_: ok I certainly could add the run time checks in a macro but compile time seems need to embellish the implementation itself
2020-10-02T04:07:03Z dbotton_: beach I see the advantage of not being to particular but for certain types of apps everything helps
2020-10-02T04:07:10Z Bike: this would be a compile time check.
2020-10-02T04:07:16Z beach: I forget who pointed this out, some talk I found online no doubt, statically typed languages often force the programmer to supply information that is typically not correct way too early in the development process.
2020-10-02T04:07:22Z Bike: see the (:compile-toplevel)? that means that code runs while compile-file is running.
2020-10-02T04:08:09Z dbotton_: so every use of the variable anywhere will get the check with that?
2020-10-02T04:08:31Z Bike: no.
2020-10-02T04:08:52Z Bike: i don't understand what that means. if it's a compile time check, what would it mean to check it at every use? do you want a runtime check whenever it's used?
2020-10-02T04:08:56Z dbotton_: that is what I mean by need to embellish the implementation
2020-10-02T04:09:22Z dbotton_: no want to insure every use of that variable is checked
2020-10-02T04:09:29Z Bike: at runtime??
2020-10-02T04:09:36Z Bike: if you want it to check at runtime please say so.
2020-10-02T04:09:48Z dbotton_: for example at compile time
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2020-10-02T04:09:58Z Bike: but what does it mean to check a USE at compile time
2020-10-02T04:10:07Z beach: It is silly to want a run-time check whenever a variable is used.  Take the function IDENTITY, why would a call to it require the type of the argument to be checked?
2020-10-02T04:10:11Z Bike: i mean, it's a constant. you define it once. it does not change.
2020-10-02T04:10:18Z Bike: it only has one value in the compiler.
2020-10-02T04:10:22Z dbotton_: so say (setq x 123) when x typed as a string
2020-10-02T04:10:29Z Bike: you said it's a constant!
2020-10-02T04:10:56Z dbotton_: ah I was talking originally about that
2020-10-02T04:11:05Z dbotton_: sorry
2020-10-02T04:11:23Z dbotton_: I mentioned after that declaim worked on variables
2020-10-02T04:11:53Z Bike: ok, whatever. so if you want all uses of a variable checked you could put in a runtime check and make it transparent with a symbol macro.
2020-10-02T04:11:55Z dbotton_: at least in sbcl
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2020-10-02T04:12:20Z Bike: then if your implementation does type inference, it can eliminate the test code when it can prove the type is always correct
2020-10-02T04:12:21Z dbotton_: the be idea is to avoid user error
2020-10-02T04:12:27Z Bike: and if it can prove it's always wrong, it can signal a warning
2020-10-02T04:12:32Z Bike: pretty sure that would work in sbcl.
2020-10-02T04:12:49Z Bike: you'd also get the same effect with a declaration, but again, the standard does not guarantee declarations are used in any way.
2020-10-02T04:12:57Z Bike: (type declarations, anyway)
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2020-10-02T04:13:36Z iissaacc: beach: re your admonishment last night i looked at some of your code on github and I now agree that writing the package prefix is the way to go, haha. No need to switch around files looking for symbols
2020-10-02T04:14:01Z dbotton_: if it can prove cant be used beyond the type constraints that would be cool to optimize out a check
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2020-10-02T04:14:58Z dbotton_: but I guess need to see if sbcl adds based on the declaim to start with the runtime check
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2020-10-02T04:15:23Z Bike: dbotton_: see: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Declarations-as-Assertions
2020-10-02T04:16:02Z dbotton_: thanks!
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2020-10-02T04:29:19Z dbotton_: very helpful
2020-10-02T04:30:03Z dbotton_: is there a way to retrieve a documentation string set a constant or variable
2020-10-02T04:30:18Z dbotton_: set on a
2020-10-02T04:33:08Z _death: clhs documentation
2020-10-02T04:33:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2020-10-02T04:33:54Z dbotton_: tried
2020-10-02T04:34:11Z dbotton_: doesn't seem to work
2020-10-02T04:34:34Z _death: you need to be more specific on how it doesn't work
2020-10-02T04:34:54Z _death: (documentation 'most-positive-fixnum 'variable)
2020-10-02T04:36:09Z dbotton_: I was missing the ' on the name
2020-10-02T04:36:18Z dbotton_: thank you
2020-10-02T04:36:39Z dbotton_: sorry newbie
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2020-10-02T04:40:03Z dbotton_: been writing a tutorial as I learn for programmers of imperative algol like languages:)
2020-10-02T04:41:38Z dbotton_: none of the books or tutorials I found would appeal or work well with most programmers I hire
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2020-10-02T04:42:05Z ludston: note: ideomatic cl is imperative
2020-10-02T04:42:45Z dbotton_: but tuts seem to focus on every thing else
2020-10-02T04:43:30Z dbotton_: mine starts with packages then functions then vars
2020-10-02T04:43:39Z dbotton_: the way they think
2020-10-02T04:43:55Z dbotton_: decompose top down
2020-10-02T04:48:17Z beach: iissaacc: Great!
2020-10-02T04:48:53Z Alfr: dbotton_, not sure that will end well, w/o introducing symbols, the reader, quote and lists first, your readers will have a hard time following any examples and keep guessing about what actually will get evaluated. (I'm omitting reader macros, yes.)
2020-10-02T04:49:43Z dbotton_: it gets slipped in so far :)
2020-10-02T04:49:43Z Alfr: I at least think that you'll need the above to explain packages, functions etc.
2020-10-02T04:50:28Z dbotton_: ill share once further
2020-10-02T04:51:24Z dbotton_: but I think will work if not oh well I learned lisp at least
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2020-10-02T04:54:02Z dbotton_pc: here is a link to google doc if want https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OUXVEgXzx3BRZITnmrWGSTq_VaF4xaFJk8HStU05goo/edit?usp=sharing
2020-10-02T04:54:52Z dbotton_pc: very early but if  want
2020-10-02T04:55:22Z beach: dbotton_pc: Always use three or four semicolons at the top level.
2020-10-02T04:55:53Z beach: clhs 2.4.4.2
2020-10-02T04:55:53Z specbot: Notes about Style for Semicolon: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_ddb.htm
2020-10-02T04:56:57Z beach: dbotton_pc: A closing parenthesis is never preceded by whitespace.
2020-10-02T04:57:11Z dbotton_pc: thanks!
2020-10-02T04:57:15Z beach: [and an opening parenthesis is never followed by witespace]
2020-10-02T04:57:20Z beach: ... including newline.
2020-10-02T04:57:55Z no-defun-allowed: Parens are more like function calls than curly braces in curly brace languages.
2020-10-02T04:57:55Z beach: load("hello3.lisp") is wrong.
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2020-10-02T04:58:56Z beach: I would definitely remove the (declare (fixnum x))
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2020-10-02T04:59:21Z no-defun-allowed: Most Lisp code doesn't have a main entry point; but everything is run when you load a file, though DEFUN obviously delays evaluation until the function that is being defined is called.
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2020-10-02T05:00:03Z beach: And I would definitely remove the (declaim (fixnum *x*))
2020-10-02T05:00:18Z dbotton_pc: beach why?
2020-10-02T05:00:38Z beach: dbotton_pc: FIXNUM is a highly implementation-specific declaration, and there is no reason to believe it is true.
2020-10-02T05:01:28Z beach: dbotton_pc: Again, a declaration is a promise by the programmer to the compiler.  It is best not to make such promises if you are not sure they can be kept.
2020-10-02T05:01:31Z dbotton_pc: no-defun-allowed the idea is to make it easier for them to "picture" the ()s as something familiar
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2020-10-02T05:01:49Z no-defun-allowed: You should picture (f x1 ... xn) as f(x1, ..., xn) then.
2020-10-02T05:02:38Z dbotton_pc: though I got that but ill reread and make sure there
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2020-10-02T05:03:13Z dbotton_pc: beach sbcl uses those for its compiler checks
2020-10-02T05:03:18Z beach: dbotton_pc: You should make sure that (setf x (+ x delta)) is an approximation of the meaning of (incf x delta), because you can't just substitute any place for x and have it work.
2020-10-02T05:03:19Z dbotton_pc: is there another way?
2020-10-02T05:03:23Z no-defun-allowed: { s₁; ...; sₙ } would usually be written (progn s₁ ... sₙ)
2020-10-02T05:03:41Z beach: dbotton_pc: I am talking about the standard.  You should be teaching the language and not SBCL.
2020-10-02T05:04:00Z no-defun-allowed: If you must check, you should pick a type that isn't tied to the implementation, like INTEGER.
2020-10-02T05:04:04Z beach: dbotton_pc: But, more importantly, there is absolutely no reason to declare if FIXNUM.
2020-10-02T05:04:09Z dbotton_pc: I likely would still keep and indicate that
2020-10-02T05:04:24Z dbotton_pc: ok
2020-10-02T05:04:25Z no-defun-allowed: Even on SBCL, the value of (expt 2 32) may not be a FIXNUM on some machines.
2020-10-02T05:04:42Z beach: no-defun-allowed is right, INTEGER is better, but still not a good way to teach Common Lisp.
2020-10-02T05:04:48Z dbotton_pc: i'll try and choose a better type
2020-10-02T05:05:41Z beach: dbotton_pc: You need to indicate the same approximation for PUSH and POP.  Basically every time the explanation contains the variable more than once.
2020-10-02T05:05:47Z dbotton_pc: I want to still indicate the compiler is as smart to static check if desired
2020-10-02T05:06:08Z beach: dbotton_pc: That is definitely the wrong way to start learning Common Lisp.
2020-10-02T05:06:10Z dbotton_pc: ok
2020-10-02T05:06:30Z dbotton_pc: when I get further down to those operators i'll run it by again
2020-10-02T05:06:48Z dbotton_pc: those were some tables i got from a tut on line and copied for now
2020-10-02T05:07:02Z no-defun-allowed: Also, for reference, generics can be achieved using static typing, but usually programmers that use static typing use the word "generics", so you may know that already.
2020-10-02T05:07:08Z beach: I am sorry to hear that.  Especially if it did not mention that they are approximations.
2020-10-02T05:08:15Z no-defun-allowed: (It would be polite to record and cite what reference materials you copy as well.)
2020-10-02T05:08:26Z dbotton_pc: beach, we will see
2020-10-02T05:08:38Z dbotton_pc: if wrong way in the end :)
2020-10-02T05:09:11Z beach: You are free to do what you want, of course, but since you asked for remarks...
2020-10-02T05:09:33Z dbotton_pc: I will likely change much but I think need to speak Algol not lisp to Algol brains
2020-10-02T05:09:55Z no-defun-allowed: I think you should try not to mess up if you're writing a book aimed at people who aren't as experienced with Lisp.
2020-10-02T05:10:03Z dbotton_pc: no-defun-allowed if I keep for sure
2020-10-02T05:10:13Z dbotton_pc: will atribute
2020-10-02T05:11:06Z dbotton_pc: well is my notes to teach my self first and one I actually know lisp if still think worthwhile (and others) figure worth sharing wider
2020-10-02T05:11:57Z beach: dbotton_pc: Your grammar is strange.  It is hard to parse what you write here.
2020-10-02T05:12:49Z dbotton_pc: sometimes I am sure, it is more notes, need to rewrite if do more with it for sure
2020-10-02T05:12:57Z no-defun-allowed: From observation, people get excited and either write questionable Lisp implementations or books early on. I did the former several years ago, and I think you should thoroughly shake out the Algol programmer in your head (and eventually in your readers' heads) before embarking on either.
2020-10-02T05:13:01Z aeth: dbotton_pc: Imo, if you want to translate C-style numerical types into CL, think in terms of (unsigned-byte foo) or (signed-byte foo) which are a more verbose equivalent to intfoo_t or uintfoo_t, rather than fixnum. Of course, they might be bignums or fixnums depending on specifics.
2020-10-02T05:14:03Z beach: dbotton_pc: Like, I would have written "I need to rewrite it if I do more with it, for sure", rather than "need to rewrite if do more with it for sure"
2020-10-02T05:14:08Z aeth: Code that works heavily with CFFI might wind up with deftypes like this: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zr-utils/-/blob/074aa28b798309c15ef1cc4f0407f36bb1ec91cd/types.lisp#L26-38
2020-10-02T05:14:48Z aeth: (Another alternative is to make (int *) short for (signed-byte *) and (uint *) short for (unsigned-byte *) and only define two.)
2020-10-02T05:15:15Z dbotton_pc: appreciated beach
2020-10-02T05:15:53Z beach: dbotton_pc: Maybe English is not your native language?  If so, next time, I'll check not only the code in your tutorial, but the text as well.
2020-10-02T05:16:54Z aeth: Oh, and INTEGER can also be used to set bounds, so instead of using the type INTEGER itself you could use e.g. (integer 4 37)
2020-10-02T05:16:57Z dbotton_pc: English is my native tongue by had a stroke 2 years ago, so may be part of it :)  Plus I do speak hebrew half the day
2020-10-02T05:17:08Z beach: I see.
2020-10-02T05:17:11Z dbotton_pc: so likely the structure a bit off
2020-10-02T05:17:24Z dbotton_pc: aeth good idea
2020-10-02T05:17:30Z beach: dbotton_pc: Reading a bit of your text in that tutorial, I can see that it could benefit from some copy editiing.
2020-10-02T05:17:35Z beach: editing
2020-10-02T05:18:15Z dbotton_pc: I really appreciate the input
2020-10-02T05:18:29Z beach: Good!
2020-10-02T05:18:55Z dbotton_pc: I will keep plugging away
2020-10-02T05:19:37Z iissaacc: I would be happy to review the text. I'm not a very experienced programmer but I am a linguist
2020-10-02T05:19:47Z dbotton_pc: my plan is once ready to port a project I created in Ada
2020-10-02T05:19:50Z dbotton_pc: http://gnoga.com/#tools
2020-10-02T05:19:53Z iissaacc: got plenty of time at the moment
2020-10-02T05:20:02Z beach: iissaacc: Oh, that can come in handy.
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2020-10-02T05:20:40Z dbotton_pc: I use websockets to make the browser a dumb terminal
2020-10-02T05:21:02Z dbotton_pc: send across javascript but all login on server side
2020-10-02T05:22:02Z iissaacc: beach: yeah? I'm your man for anything linguistics or just writing related
2020-10-02T05:22:30Z iissaacc: keen to contribute to things so I can soak up more lisp knowledge
2020-10-02T05:23:39Z iissaacc: (and so I can brag on my CV...)
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2020-10-02T05:31:48Z dbotton_pc: have to get some sleep, thank you all
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2020-10-02T05:34:53Z beach: iissaacc: I was thinking about the significant task (that I often take on) to check the (Common Lisp related) writing of non-native speakers of English.
2020-10-02T05:35:32Z beach: iissaacc: Depending on the native language of the writer, the problems are always the same, so it can get a bit boring sometimes.
2020-10-02T05:36:16Z beach: Even for native speakers, an omitted comma can change the meaning of the sentence, and stuff like that is hard to spot by the author.
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2020-10-02T05:45:24Z iissaacc: Indeed, and L2 speakers often use syntax that sounds strange for a native speaker and can impede understanding of content that needs to be precisely expressed
2020-10-02T05:45:57Z beach: Exactly!
2020-10-02T05:46:27Z iissaacc: Plus I find it helps me think about the topic from different angles when I discuss it with a reviewer
2020-10-02T05:47:42Z beach: You mean when you are the author?
2020-10-02T05:50:11Z iissaacc: yes
2020-10-02T05:51:35Z iissaacc: My MA supervisor is not a native English speaker, so I had to be more careful with my verbal explanations and that often helped me find holes in my ideas
2020-10-02T05:52:32Z beach: Interesting.
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2020-10-02T06:10:24Z ludston: Consider: using slang and colloquial language can be a substitute for good grammar, excluding esl.
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2020-10-02T06:14:08Z no-defun-allowed: That would be very unfortunate for non-native readers and translators.
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2020-10-02T06:19:15Z edgar-rft: Let's translate all documents with Google Translator to make sure that nobody understands anything anymore.
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2020-10-02T06:21:13Z Alfr: Make it a round trip, call it normalization, and then shred the originals.
2020-10-02T06:23:22Z no-defun-allowed: I am waiting eagerly for someone to pass the Common Lisp Hyperspec through Google Translate at least 20 times.
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2020-10-02T06:42:28Z Blukunfando: Don’t forget to add a common lithp to the Hyperthpec in the firtht plathe.
2020-10-02T06:43:25Z no-defun-allowed uploaded an image: notfunny-abelson.png (125KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/bsWfNjLFICeLlhYoMkoasZTe/notfunny-abelson.png >
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2020-10-02T06:45:22Z jackdaniel: are there metamemes "'not funny abelson' not funny abelson" ?
2020-10-02T06:46:08Z no-defun-allowed: I am also waiting eagerly for a chain of people pointing out their "not funny" pictures aren't funny, but preferably not in #lisp.
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2020-10-02T06:48:44Z iissaacc: slang and colloquial language and "good" grammar are not mutually exclusive
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2020-10-02T06:50:54Z jackdaniel: exactly
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2020-10-02T07:08:28Z ludston: But slang does exclude non-native speakers, whereas good grammar helps clarify what you mean for everybody.
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2020-10-02T07:11:31Z Blukunfando: Good grammar excludes people with a visceral disdain for good grammar and for those who make an effort to follow it.
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2020-10-02T07:12:54Z no-defun-allowed: Hopefully there are fewer of those people then.
2020-10-02T07:13:58Z Blukunfando: Yeah, most of them probably pride themselves on not wanting anything to do with Lisp.
2020-10-02T07:14:12Z iissaacc: ludston: it depends on what you mean by slang. I've seen this opinion expressed by Americans who then pepper their writing with Americanisms which they obviously don't consider "slang"...
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2020-10-02T07:16:29Z ludston: What I'm saying is that you can have low-status effective communication through slang, vs high status effective communication through "good english". I think it is interesting because it isn't necessarily an intuitive idea, and it's useful to try both these modes of communication when you are teaching.
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2020-10-02T07:17:04Z no-defun-allowed: Blukunfando: Well, now that you mention it...you're not wrong.
2020-10-02T07:17:11Z jackdaniel: I think taht this discussion went beyond common lisp topic
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2020-10-02T07:17:44Z jackdaniel: there is a more universal channel #lispcafe for interesting discussions like this
2020-10-02T07:20:14Z iissaacc: ludston: ah yeah we're on the same page then
2020-10-02T07:22:40Z iissaacc: *joins #lispcafe*
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2020-10-02T07:23:29Z ldb: good afternoon
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2020-10-02T07:29:18Z beach: Hello ldb.
2020-10-02T07:32:39Z ludston: jackdaniel: it's somewhat off-topic. In a strange way a macro is a bit like slang, isn't it? i.e. Domain specific, and optimised for ease of use
2020-10-02T07:33:26Z jackdaniel: each newly introduced operator is a "slang verb", macros have irregular argument evaluation rules
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2020-10-02T07:37:46Z _death: slang may help both lispers and nonlispers understand, e.g. I'm cdring down the street in a car
2020-10-02T07:38:11Z contrapunctus: lol
2020-10-02T07:40:00Z aeth: what is rplacd if not slang?
2020-10-02T07:43:20Z beach: Not at all.  It is part of the defined vocabulary of Common Lisp.  Kind of like the equivalent of the contents of the "dictionnaire de l'académie française".
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2020-10-02T07:46:32Z ludston: I'm not sure I agree, because most operators, i.e. named functions are isomorphs of real life/English problems modelled with existing comp-sci concepts and are as such not extending the vocab of lisp as much as just being an expression of an existing language.
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2020-10-02T07:47:36Z loke: If you use the term "rplacd" when discussing C++, I'll be perfectly happy accepting that as slang.
2020-10-02T07:47:46Z loke: But in the context of Lisp it has a very precise meaning.
2020-10-02T07:53:13Z ludston: the more I think about it, the less anagolous it feels, but we do avoid writing macros for pretty much the same reasons we avoid using slang: the outgroup has to jump a learning wall
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2020-10-02T07:55:22Z ck_: I didn't know we were avoiding macros :o
2020-10-02T07:56:06Z no-defun-allowed: Would I prefer for the outgroup to read the crap my macros expand to then?
2020-10-02T07:56:55Z ldb: After trying to migrating 2k lines of a OCaml syntax tree walker I think macro is a precious feature
2020-10-02T07:57:04Z ludston: ck_: The rule is, prefer defun to defmacro, except when defmacro is better. Rephrased is "avoid defmacro"
2020-10-02T07:57:54Z _death: much of the jargon file is still relevant..
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2020-10-02T07:59:42Z no-defun-allowed: The "rule" is nonsensical for things you can't do without DEFMACRO, like generating parsers, and unpleasant for something like INVOKE-WITH-RESOURCE instead of WITH-RESOURCE.
2020-10-02T08:00:28Z ludston: no-defun-allowed: only if you didn't read the second half of the rule
2020-10-02T08:01:18Z no-defun-allowed: It's a bit like saying "I after E except before C and except for <all the words that have E after I>".
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2020-10-02T08:04:41Z ldb: it's just a over simplification to staging limitation
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2020-10-02T08:06:45Z ludston: no-defun-allowed: I will also accept, "It's tautological". But it's the kind of heuristic you find on corporate style-guides, learned through pain.
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2020-10-02T08:11:30Z no-defun-allowed: ludston: My apologies, I only come up with long formal words unintentionally.
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2020-10-02T08:20:40Z aeth: Tell people not to use macros. If there's a problem that can only elegantly be solved via macros, then they'll use them anyway. It should be a guideline, not a rule.
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2020-10-02T08:29:17Z jackdaniel: PG had a compelling argument against this line of thinking. Even when you have bunch of functions you still need to "learn" what they do, well written macros actually reduce amount of things to learn
2020-10-02T08:29:50Z jackdaniel: i.e (with-foo …) is much easier to use than remembering, that after calling init-foo, you need to wrap the body in unwind protect and call destroy-foo in the end
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2020-10-02T08:30:59Z jackdaniel: another noteworthy practice which I pick from McCLIM, is that when you write a macro accepting a body, write also a function which accepts the continuation with said body
2020-10-02T08:31:13Z jackdaniel: and make said macro expand to this function
2020-10-02T08:31:18Z aeth: Macros are only straightforward when you stick to established patterns: define-foo, with-foo, do-foo, foo-case/case-foo, etc.
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2020-10-02T08:32:32Z jackdaniel: (with-foo (xxx) a b c) ; -> (flet ((gensym-cont () a b c)) (invoke-with-foo xxx #'gensym-cont))
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2020-10-02T08:35:32Z _death: one way to write programs is to come up with an interface by thinking about functions, and then spread a thin layer of macros to make things prettier.. another way is to come up with a macro form that describes the class of problems you want to solve, and have the implementation come out of that.. both ways are useful at times
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2020-10-02T08:49:10Z _death: for the latter, I am reminded of https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-12/msg01070.html
2020-10-02T08:49:50Z ebrasca: I love do-* macros.
2020-10-02T08:50:50Z treflip: "with-foo macros" are the best <3
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2020-10-02T09:23:29Z iissaacc: the hunchentoot source is pretty amazing
2020-10-02T09:23:47Z iissaacc: quality documentation everywhere
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2020-10-02T09:41:14Z jackdaniel: so-called ediware is known for its quality
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2020-10-02T09:44:51Z ted_wroclaw: Agreed Edi Weitz is a gift from heaven.  His book is extremely helpful as well.
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2020-10-02T09:59:22Z schweers: His book is Common Lisp Recipies, right?
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2020-10-02T09:59:33Z phoe: t
2020-10-02T10:05:42Z jackdaniel: (clr (cons a b)) ; -> .
2020-10-02T10:06:11Z phoe: wait, what is clr
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2020-10-02T10:06:45Z no-defun-allowed: Contents of the Lower dot thing Register
2020-10-02T10:08:01Z edgar-rft: schweers: Common Lisp Recipies is authored by Edi Weitz if that's what you wanted to know.
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2020-10-02T10:08:56Z no-defun-allowed: jackdaniel's example is wrong, actually: if b is a list, then (clr (cons a b) ⇒
2020-10-02T10:09:27Z no-defun-allowed: I may have dropped a paren. (clr (cons a b)) ⇒
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2020-10-02T10:16:41Z jackdaniel: right, and if b is a dot, then (clr (cons a b)) ; -> a
2020-10-02T10:17:24Z jackdaniel: (that's for backward compatibility with vack lisp)
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2020-10-02T10:46:09Z schweers: edgar-rft: I wanted to know which book(s) Weitz wrote, but that’s close enough) ;
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2020-10-02T11:45:36Z edgar-rft: schweers: Edi Weitz wrote lots of stuff, mainly about math and most texts are in German, and you're right, it's surprisingly hard to find a list with all the stuff he wrote, or at least I have no link to offer :-(
2020-10-02T11:46:25Z schweers: I found some of his stuff on amazon, and yes, some of it is in german.  Luckily, I understand german :)
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2020-10-02T11:50:01Z Xach: a secret power
2020-10-02T11:50:53Z no-defun-allowed: A useful skill for reading philosophy and Lisp books (same thing amirite).
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2020-10-02T11:57:14Z ck_: Excellent idea..  Schopenhauer Common Lisp
2020-10-02T11:57:51Z easye: no-defun-allowed: reading the French philosophers can be a little bit more fun.
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2020-10-02T11:58:44Z no-defun-allowed: Being able to read French also makes another range of Lisp and philosophy books available, yes.
2020-10-02T11:59:36Z easye can't read French, and can barely read German, so makes do with the English translations.
2020-10-02T11:59:44Z dra: Les Langages Lisp.
2020-10-02T11:59:44Z edgar-rft: Some links from Edi's Homepage at the Hamburg University -> http://weitz.de/KMFI/ http://weitz.de/EDG/ https://www.springer.com/gp/book/9783764361242
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2020-10-02T12:05:24Z edgar-rft: Edi Weitz "How the strengths of Lisp-family languages facilitate building complex and flexible bioinformatics applications" -> https://academic.oup.com/bib/article/19/3/537/2769437?keytype=ref&ijkey=vUZP0qQU2fX0CkP
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2020-10-02T13:09:27Z dlowe: just need to translate them all to lojban, the true lisp-like language
2020-10-02T13:09:41Z dlowe: otherwise you're stuck in an NxM translation matrix
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2020-10-02T13:48:28Z jackdaniel: beach: I'm using flexichain now and its design is very elegant to me, thanks for this library
2020-10-02T13:48:45Z beach: Oh, great!  Glad you like it!
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2020-10-02T13:49:21Z beach: I would have picked different names for the operators, had I done it today.
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2020-10-02T13:50:28Z beach: Maybe I can convince no-defun-allowed to create a version 2 with better names.
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2020-10-02T13:51:42Z jackdaniel: names are fine, I don't think that it would be a good use of time (for it being a cosmetic issue)
2020-10-02T13:51:54Z beach: You may be right.
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2020-10-02T14:12:34Z jackdaniel: I wonder if standard-cursorchain should be instantiable given not all flexicursor protocol functions are implemented for it (i.e cursor-pos) - unlike left/right-sticky-flexicursor
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2020-10-02T14:13:24Z beach: I am afraid I don't remember enough of it to say.
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2020-10-02T14:35:00Z IAmRasputin: Hello, I'm trying to write a function that prompts a user (me) for credentials to authenticate against an API, and it works, but it displays the password as I type it.  I'd like it to not do this, either echoing nothing or echoing * in place of chartacters.  Is it possible to implement this?
2020-10-02T14:35:18Z phoe: IAmRasputin: do you use a terminal?
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2020-10-02T14:35:26Z phoe: or some other means of inputting data?
2020-10-02T14:35:37Z phoe: e.g. a slime repl?
2020-10-02T14:35:50Z IAmRasputin: phoe: mainly I use the slime repl, but eventually I'd like to use a plain terminal
2020-10-02T14:36:17Z phoe: in the slime REPL, I don't know if that's easily doable; you'd need to introduce some sort of modification to the slime-repl mode.
2020-10-02T14:36:58Z IAmRasputin: Eh, I was afraid of that, but I don't suspect that the slime REPL will be the primary means of interacting with this once it's "done"
2020-10-02T14:36:59Z phoe: in terminal, you'd possibly want to switch to a raw mode and start from there; I think cl-charms can help with that.
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2020-10-02T14:37:13Z IAmRasputin: Great, I'll check that out.  Thanks!
2020-10-02T14:38:00Z phoe: it's not really a Lisp question per se; it's more of a question of how to interface with the terminal
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2020-10-02T14:45:20Z mfiano-: Xach: Could you tell me why cl-digraph is so old in the dists? I've been waiting to use it for 4 months now, since the current dist version does not work on SBCL.
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2020-10-02T14:48:32Z mfiano-: Xach: Oh, it seems maybe you need to point to its new home. I think sjl moved his repos back to GitHub. I don't see cl-digraph on his bitbucket anymore.
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2020-10-02T14:50:29Z TwoNotes: Which Lisp GUI package has support for OTF fonts?
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2020-10-02T14:51:38Z beach: You may want to ask jackdaniel or scymtym, perhaps in #clim.  They know stuff like that.
2020-10-02T14:52:38Z beach: TwoNotes: Depending on what you mean by "Lisp GUI package", there aren't that many specifically made for Common Lisp.
2020-10-02T14:53:01Z TwoNotes: All the ones I have found so far are just wrappers around Tcl, gtk, etc.  That's fine.
2020-10-02T14:53:19Z TwoNotes: I just need to display text in a variety of fonts
2020-10-02T14:53:44Z beach: If you want one of those, then I guess the font question has to do with those libraries, and not so much with Common Lisp.
2020-10-02T14:53:58Z beach: I know McCLIM can display in many different fonts.
2020-10-02T14:54:11Z beach: It can use TTF, but I don't know about OTF.
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2020-10-02T14:54:28Z TwoNotes: I was looking at https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/gui.html#introduction
2020-10-02T14:54:44Z beach: I use McCLIM to display Vietnamese text in large sans-serif fonts.
2020-10-02T14:54:57Z TwoNotes: For example, the gtk one, when you dig down, the support for setting text attributres is "not yet implemented"
2020-10-02T14:55:10Z phoe: qt4/qtools should support OTF
2020-10-02T14:55:15Z TwoNotes: beach, ah that sounds like what I need then
2020-10-02T14:55:19Z beach: TwoNotes: I recommend McCLIM.
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2020-10-02T14:55:29Z beach: *sigh* OK.
2020-10-02T14:56:39Z phoe: but I never really loaded an OTF font in qtools myself
2020-10-02T14:57:10Z edgar-rft: duckduckgo found this -> https://github.com/Failproofshark/cl-sdl2-ttf
2020-10-02T14:57:22Z mfiano-: An old issue says that McCLIM ignores OTF files. I'm not sure if that is still the case
2020-10-02T14:57:45Z mfiano-: In any case, you can just use FreeType2 with CFFI, but that is not Lisp and I cannot really recommend that path
2020-10-02T14:57:56Z scymtym: for McCLIM, the situation is like this, the ffi-based "harfbuzz"-based font rendering supports all the bells and whistles, the non-ffi-based font rendering supports a subset of OTF (TTF and TTC, but not CFF and WOFF)
2020-10-02T14:58:09Z scymtym is working on more complete OTF support
2020-10-02T14:58:27Z beach: scymtym: Thanks.  It seems non-Lisp solutions are preferred.
2020-10-02T14:58:35Z TwoNotes: I will be working with the "sitelen pona" font, which makes use of some of the advanced OTF features.
2020-10-02T14:58:51Z scymtym: TwoNotes: is the font available for donwload?
2020-10-02T14:58:56Z scymtym: *download
2020-10-02T14:59:08Z TwoNotes: I have to look where I got it from.  A moment
2020-10-02T14:59:25Z TwoNotes: If yo udo not know some toki pona, it will not be greatly useful :)
2020-10-02T14:59:27Z scymtym: beach: i thought the information might be interesting to some anyway
2020-10-02T14:59:30Z mfiano-: edgar-rft: It's completely broken and doesn't work
2020-10-02T14:59:52Z beach: scymtym: Certainly to me.
2020-10-02T15:00:13Z scymtym: TwoNotes: i can likely still see which OTF features it uses and maybe estimate how much work would be needed to support it
2020-10-02T15:00:33Z TwoNotes: Ok, the font name is actualy "linja pona" and its web site is http://musilili.net/linja-pona/
2020-10-02T15:01:00Z TwoNotes: There are two versions, depending on how you want to construct the glyphs
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2020-10-02T15:01:55Z mfiano-: The author has been unresponsive and hasn't kept up with the needed changes (currently he mis-manages foreign memory which results in constant memory corruption). One of many reasons why I cannot recommend a foreign library for such trivial tasks.
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2020-10-02T15:03:42Z edgar-rft: The OTF Standard is from 1996, so it's too new for Common Lisp :-)
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2020-10-02T15:04:32Z TwoNotes: It is more a matter of the graphics packages supporting it, not the language.
2020-10-02T15:04:48Z phoe: TwoNotes: edgar forgot a /s
2020-10-02T15:04:52Z TwoNotes: ha
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2020-10-02T15:07:17Z scymtym: TwoNotes: that is true. adding the missing features on the font-format level seems doable. adding the missing features to the renderer could be harder
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2020-10-02T15:08:16Z scymtym: (the fonts uses a CFF table which means, zpb-ttf cannot open it, but i already implemented most of CFF)
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2020-10-02T15:09:06Z scymtym: sorry for the (more than usual) erratic typing. 6 hour video conference just ended
2020-10-02T15:09:19Z beach: Wow.
2020-10-02T15:11:24Z mfiano-: Was it Lisp related? :)
2020-10-02T15:11:47Z scymtym: i wish
2020-10-02T15:12:15Z TwoNotes: I have used the linja pona font in the libreOffice word processor and it works fine there.  It is unusual in that takes entire words in text to make a single glyph.
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2020-10-02T15:13:00Z mfiano-: I've been trying to partake in more Lisp-related live streams. phoe's streams have been too early for me, but I try.
2020-10-02T15:13:55Z mfiano-: That said, we do have a Lisp developer meetup this week (today) which typically runs 6 hours. But it is highly domain-specific so I doubt any of you would like to join :)
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2020-10-02T15:25:27Z jackdaniel: it is worth to put emphasis (and scymtym said that) on the fact, that you may use McCLIM with the FFI library which fully supports otf
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2020-10-02T15:27:58Z TwoNotes: Now after learning GTK for a different project, now I need to learn McCLIM.. oh well.  I have the docs...
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2020-10-02T15:32:28Z beach: TwoNotes: McCLIM is being actively developed and maintained by jackdaniel, scymtym, and several others.  I am sure they would be willing to assist you if you should have problems with it.
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2020-10-02T15:33:14Z TwoNotes: I have a small test program currently written for GTK.  I just need to adapt it to the new API.
2020-10-02T15:33:35Z beach: TwoNotes: Plus, by using McCLIM, you help expand the set of users, and who knows, maybe you will contribute to it as well.
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2020-10-02T15:34:02Z TwoNotes: And linja pona is practically a markup language so I am sure it will exercise a few new paths...
2020-10-02T15:34:34Z TwoNotes: For those not familiar with the notation, it is like a simplified Egyptian heroglyphics.
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2020-10-02T15:34:47Z TwoNotes: Hieroglyphics.  With compositing
2020-10-02T15:34:51Z dlowe: mi sona ona
2020-10-02T15:34:51Z beach: Interesting.
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2020-10-02T15:35:25Z TwoNotes: Such as, proper names go in a cartouche, which the font is capable of rendering
2020-10-02T15:35:59Z TwoNotes: (You cna write toki pona just fine with Latin letters, but this font is fun to work with
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2020-10-02T15:46:11Z edgar-rft: some day Lisp build its own pyramids
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2020-10-02T15:48:48Z phoe: you mean balanced trees out of cons cells?
2020-10-02T15:50:26Z edgar-rft: maybe more like pyramid scheme :-)
2020-10-02T15:50:33Z phoe: :O
2020-10-02T15:51:53Z mfiano-: Xach: Regarding your cl-digraph comment on GitHub, I failed to notice that he moved to his own Mercurial host. I am confused why it hasn't been updated since February.
2020-10-02T15:52:20Z mfiano-: Quicklisp dist version that is. The commits in his Mercurial repository are much more recent
2020-10-02T15:52:37Z Xach: It was my mistake, I merged too late. It will be fixed in the next release.
2020-10-02T15:52:39Z mfiano-: I only bring it up because the version tracked by QL is broken
2020-10-02T15:52:59Z Xach: The next release will use his new repo
2020-10-02T15:53:10Z mfiano-: Ok thank you.
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2020-10-02T16:24:28Z TheInformaticist: Have any of you read Anatomy of Lisp? If yes, what did you think of it?
2020-10-02T16:24:39Z beach: Great book.
2020-10-02T16:24:53Z beach: A bit old, but still quite good.
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2020-10-02T16:26:27Z TheInformaticist: beach: What did you like about it?
2020-10-02T16:27:06Z beach: It was a while ago, but I remember the part about how to represent various aspects of an implementation, like environments, etc.
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2020-10-02T16:29:54Z beach: Starting with chapter 5 I guess.
2020-10-02T16:30:40Z beach: I mean, the previous chapters are good too, but the concrete description of the representation of various things was what taught me a lot.
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2020-10-02T16:31:13Z mseddon: yeah, they cover weizembaum environments and everything
2020-10-02T16:32:13Z mseddon: uh. weizenbaum*
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2020-10-02T16:33:56Z mseddon: it is very oriented toward Lisp 1.5 though.
2020-10-02T16:34:37Z beach: I don't think much else existed at the time the book was written.
2020-10-02T16:34:49Z mseddon: maclisp did, but obviously it was totally inaccessible to most people
2020-10-02T16:35:21Z mseddon: (1978, says my copy here)
2020-10-02T16:35:47Z beach: Yeah, OK, so several Lisps existed.  Maclisp and Interlisp.
2020-10-02T16:36:11Z mseddon: but the lisp at YOUR university was going to be a Lisp 1.5 derivative.
2020-10-02T16:36:16Z mseddon: so it's a good book, really.
2020-10-02T16:37:12Z beach: I was actually taught Lisp using some Interlisp variant, maybe around 1977 or so.
2020-10-02T16:37:38Z beach: And the research group then used Interlisp as well.
2020-10-02T16:38:03Z mseddon: was it as user friendly as it was made out to be? I find looking at interlisp source inpenetrable, but I've never really played with it.
2020-10-02T16:38:13Z TheInformaticist: beach: mseddon: Right. I notice in the bibliography it mentions a couple of the Lambda papers, and in the Preface he mentions Guy Steele. Man, was there anything that Guy Steele didn't leave his fingerprints on? He must be one of the most brilliant guys of the 20th century, and yet most don't know about him.
2020-10-02T16:38:48Z mseddon: TheInformaticist: GLS very importantly showed that you could do lexical binding efficiently, among other things.
2020-10-02T16:38:48Z beach: mseddon: We used only a small subset of it for a very short period of time.  It might as well have been 1.5 or MacLisp for what we were doing.
2020-10-02T16:39:15Z mseddon: beach: ah right. that would make sens
2020-10-02T16:39:16Z beach: TheInformaticist: Oh, he is quite famous.
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2020-10-02T16:39:37Z mseddon: All hail the great Quux :)
2020-10-02T16:40:45Z beach: TheInformaticist: He was involved in Java, for instance.
2020-10-02T16:42:20Z TheInformaticist: beach: Yeah, I know. I'm a little disappointed in him for that. As he told the author of Anatomy of Lisp: That's not a compromise. That's a bloody surrender!
2020-10-02T16:42:57Z mseddon: TheInformaticist: he was hired because he'd already been in charge of two very successful standards, RnRs and Common lisp.
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2020-10-02T16:43:42Z mseddon: But forces being what they are in the corporate world, I'm certain he got a lot of push-back to do anything too drastic.
2020-10-02T16:44:45Z TheInformaticist: Well, I'm sure he was well paid. I got the impression from remarks that he made in a talk that he felt his efforts with Lisp, especially Scheme, had been a failure.
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2020-10-02T16:45:27Z TheInformaticist: ...because Common Lisp and Scheme did not go on to dominate the industry.
2020-10-02T16:47:20Z tfb: mseddon: Interlisp was user-friendly ... if you were one of the fair folk.  But if you used it for long enough you became one, or at least got half way.
2020-10-02T16:49:49Z mseddon: tfb: right. I figured it must have been fairly decent, at least with the right tutoring
2020-10-02T16:50:14Z mseddon: learning an emulator for it is on my list, but gah, time.
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2020-10-02T16:51:36Z dlowe: grumble grumble can't symbol-macrolet a special variable grumble
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2020-10-02T16:52:41Z tfb: The Medley-revival project should be well-worth looking at (assuming you want to spend several years trapped in faerie.  Which actuwll
2020-10-02T16:53:16Z tfb: ... which actually seems quite appealing...
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2020-10-02T16:56:50Z mseddon: I spent a good amount of time playing with MacLisp on ITS, so it's definitely on my list, particularly since it's so different from common lisp
2020-10-02T16:59:06Z TheInformaticist: mseddon: Really? How is it different?
2020-10-02T17:00:01Z TheInformaticist: mseddon: I honestly would like to know...I've wanted to know more about Maclisp since it inspired Emacs Lisp.
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2020-10-02T17:00:41Z mseddon: oh, maclisp is different is less ways from common lisp. No CLOS, obviously, a few names here and there, but interlisp is wildly different
2020-10-02T17:01:12Z mseddon: TheInformaticist: https://github.com/PDP-10/its/ this is where you can play with it if you like. Also includes EMACS on the PDP-10, all the good stuff. :)
2020-10-02T17:01:37Z TheInformaticist: mseddon: Oh, OK. Hey, that's cool :-) Thanks.
2020-10-02T17:01:49Z mseddon: np! careful, it's a black hole :)
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2020-10-02T17:02:59Z tfb: TheInformaticist: also Interlisp's idea of what a programming environment should be like -- a world where you edit list structure in memory and the filesystem is this incidental thing -- isjust wil
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2020-10-02T17:03:55Z tfb: ... is just wildly different to anything modern.  (I need to stop typing on this crappy tablet, sorry)
2020-10-02T17:04:00Z mseddon: yeah, interlisp is all about a persistent environment. you are mostly modifying s-exprs directly. it's this whole crazy thing.
2020-10-02T17:04:43Z TheInformaticist: Ohhhhh, ITS! I've been stumbling across references to this for years! That's awesome.
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2020-10-02T17:06:18Z TheInformaticist: tfb: mseddon: Emacs is kind of like that, wouldn't you say?
2020-10-02T17:06:52Z mseddon: no. emacs source files are still text. interlisps are literally the sexprs hanging off the fdefinition property list on a symbol.
2020-10-02T17:07:02Z mseddon: the editor edits an sexpr, not a text buffer.
2020-10-02T17:07:18Z tfb: No.  Emacs is a cheap LispM, Interlisp was a whole other world.
2020-10-02T17:08:03Z dlowe: where do the comments go?
2020-10-02T17:08:05Z TheInformaticist: mseddon: I see. I'll have to try it out. Is Interlisp written in PDP-10 assembly?
2020-10-02T17:09:01Z mseddon: interlisp was ported across many platforms for many years.
2020-10-02T17:09:13Z mseddon: dlowe: they go on (COMMENT THIS IS TOTALLY UGLY)
2020-10-02T17:09:43Z mseddon: but I think tfb can probably clarify. basically you had some syntax that the evaluator ignore it I believe.
2020-10-02T17:09:52Z dlowe: I was thinking that's what it might be
2020-10-02T17:09:53Z treflip: Is there an object system in Interlisp?
2020-10-02T17:10:00Z mseddon: there was common LOOPS
2020-10-02T17:10:55Z mseddon: on which I think clos was partly based, the lispm guys were faffing around with flavors, which is single dispatch and a bit ugly
2020-10-02T17:11:08Z TheInformaticist: mseddon: Sorry. I was confusing Maclisp and Interlisp.
2020-10-02T17:11:28Z mseddon: ah, no, maclisp did not have an object system. lisp machine lisp added flavours, which symbolics also inherited.
2020-10-02T17:11:59Z mseddon: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/MIT/nnnfla1-20040122.pdf
2020-10-02T17:12:28Z mseddon: though genera added common lisp when it game out, I have no idea if knight etc also did.
2020-10-02T17:12:31Z tfb: treflip: PCL was Portable Common LOOPS, which came from Common LOOPS, which came from LOOPS.  Many CLOS implementations have fairly direct PCL ancestry I think, still.
2020-10-02T17:12:56Z treflip: Cool
2020-10-02T17:13:07Z mseddon: aha. and yes, PCL does seem to regularly pop up when I peek into a CLOS implementation, in some weird form.
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2020-10-02T17:13:57Z tfb: I wish I could remember the release names for PCL.  Victoria day, Rainy day were two
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2020-10-02T17:16:09Z tfb: (also for the interlisp-D releases: harmony, koto, lyric, medley are the ones I know.  a rumour that the next one would be 'new wave')
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2020-10-02T17:46:01Z TheInformaticist: OK, I know I'm probably going to get yelled at, but I'm interested to know: Did any of you ever use Niklaus Wirth's operating environment (I think it is called Oberon)? If yes, was there anything really revolutionary about it?
2020-10-02T17:47:47Z mseddon: yell. offtopic. it's interesting insofar as it's trivial to write, and the structured format of the grammar means you can translate it into static single assignment form extremely efficiently. Think of it as scheme for object-pascal / Modular 3. It's fun, the spec is like 50 pages long, go play. but. offtopic. :P
2020-10-02T17:48:24Z mseddon: uh. scheme to- it's still basically pascal, whatever way you look at it. yuck.
2020-10-02T17:48:30Z TheInformaticist: :-p Great answer. Thanks.
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2020-10-02T17:50:44Z TheInformaticist: You know, I like Lisp and I like Pascal...for completely different reasons.
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2020-10-02T17:52:59Z TheInformaticist: Although I can understand why Ken Thompson criticized Pascal. But it seems like most of the original C guys act like Lisp doesn't exist. They be like, "I don't know anything about that (Kernighan)."
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2020-10-02T19:03:41Z jackdaniel: here's where I've used flexichain: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/a2606b0a-flexichain.webm , fact that integration required around 20loc says plenty about how easy protocol it is
2020-10-02T19:06:46Z phoe: amazing stuff
2020-10-02T19:07:14Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2020-10-02T19:53:06Z _death: jackdaniel: nice.. I also used flexichain in my tui thingy
2020-10-02T19:54:11Z _death: oh, it was actually cluffer
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2020-10-02T21:34:17Z mseddon: jackdaniel: that is the kind of LOC of integration code the world needs.
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2020-10-02T21:35:22Z mseddon: jackdaniel: I'm curious, do you have your code up anywhere? It looks like a really fun, silly project. Love to see what you are doing under the hood.
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2020-10-03T00:12:10Z aaaaaa: Hi all. Can this book be downloaded freely or not? I can't google for PDF. http://vseloved.github.io/progalgs.html
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2020-10-03T00:49:38Z mseddon: aaaaaa: sounds a little bit like entrapment, so good luck finding suckers here.
2020-10-03T00:50:09Z mseddon: the answer is no, there is no free distribution.
2020-10-03T00:50:27Z mseddon: sorry. you will have to pay for it.
2020-10-03T00:51:20Z mseddon: apress would not be handing out freebies.
2020-10-03T00:52:44Z mseddon: you may be able to find pre-release material in the public domain, but there are no guarantees that they relate to the published artefact, which I assume you are wanting to read.
2020-10-03T00:53:06Z mseddon: sorry. them's the breaks.
2020-10-03T00:53:56Z mseddon: if you contact the author, perhaps they will release a pre-release manuscript?
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2020-10-03T00:54:19Z mseddon: it's really between you and them, and their publisher.
2020-10-03T00:54:32Z mseddon: nobody else can help in that kind of situation.
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2020-10-03T01:03:36Z aaaaaa: what do you mean by 'entrapment'?
2020-10-03T01:03:47Z aaaaaa: I didn't ask for pirated version, just wondered...
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2020-10-03T01:25:55Z mseddon: that was me being a bit rude, sorry.
2020-10-03T01:26:09Z mseddon: unwarrented. I have had a long week, I didn't mean to offend.
2020-10-03T01:27:01Z mseddon: but sadly since it appears to be a forthcoming publication, I'd suggest you contact the author directly, since they are the final arbiter of the work.
2020-10-03T01:27:16Z mseddon: nobody else owns that, so nobody else has power to help you.
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2020-10-03T01:28:12Z mseddon: it is ultimately, however, up to them what they do with their copyright.
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2020-10-03T01:29:00Z mseddon: people are sometimes amenable though, and will give you access to pre-release material.
2020-10-03T01:29:27Z mseddon: just. be nice. respect boundaries.
2020-10-03T01:29:48Z mseddon: don't be a dick, and the rest of the ten commandments. or whatnot.
2020-10-03T01:31:22Z mseddon: anyway. generally I don't see why one would not cough up the modest sum to acknowledge the time they spent working on it, rather than haggling out of the blue. Don't you?
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2020-10-03T03:37:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-03T03:40:09Z moon-child: evening, beach
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2020-10-03T08:57:31Z phoe: aaaaaa: it has been taken down ever since the author has signed a contract with apress
2020-10-03T08:57:59Z beach: Interesting.
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2020-10-03T09:07:22Z beach: phoe: What did Apress have to say about your making the text of your book publicly available for proofreading?
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2020-10-03T09:10:24Z phoe: beach: actually, I did the proofreading in private
2020-10-03T09:10:44Z beach: Oh!  I see.
2020-10-03T09:10:46Z phoe: as in, made a public call for proofreading, but invited everyone to work on a *private* Git repository
2020-10-03T09:10:58Z beach: I see, I see.  Clever!
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2020-10-03T09:11:35Z phoe: I specifically asked them about this, and they did not mind doing it that way as long as I did not make the text freely and publicly accessible on the 'net
2020-10-03T09:11:55Z beach: Good to know.
2020-10-03T09:12:51Z beach: I am asking because I am seriously considering changing my book "Concrete and Abstract Data Types" use Common Lisp directly, rather than translating it into a specific algorithmic language.  I would then also invite some people to help me with the proofreading.
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2020-10-03T09:19:48Z beach: Lately, I have changed my opinion about the possibility of mentioning Lisp in public, without everyone automatically stop listening immediately.  Functional programming seems to be on the rise as a mainstream paradigm, Clojure is fairly popular, and "Uncle Bob" is pushing Clojure as "The Last Programming Language".
2020-10-03T09:19:50Z beach: With Apress having published several books using Common Lisp, it seems the they also don't mind mentioning Common Lisp.  I assume they know something about potential clients.
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2020-10-03T10:01:48Z phoe: yep, I can understand that
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2020-10-03T10:16:43Z he-man: hello everyone. Looking for some help on Common Lisp. Is this the right place? Thank you very much.
2020-10-03T10:17:11Z beach: Sure.
2020-10-03T10:17:36Z beach: ... and welcome to #lisp.
2020-10-03T10:17:43Z he-man: Hello @beach. Couple of questions actually. I am developing a small program, for the sake of practicing
2020-10-03T10:18:20Z he-man: I am totally unfamiliar with the idiomatic way to load packages in general
2020-10-03T10:18:30Z beach: Go ahead!  By the way, this is IRC and the `@' convention is not used.
2020-10-03T10:18:30Z he-man: In my file I define a package with defpackage
2020-10-03T10:18:45Z he-man: and I (:use :common-lisp :str)
2020-10-03T10:18:57Z beach: OK.
2020-10-03T10:19:00Z he-man: but the package is not found unless I load quicklisp and I download it
2020-10-03T10:19:36Z he-man: seems weird to me, because what I though is package download should be a one-time operation (not something I should add in my .lisp file)
2020-10-03T10:19:43Z beach: Well, to start with, you are probably confusing packages (a Common Lisp term for namespaces) and systems (what other languages call "packages").
2020-10-03T10:19:45Z he-man: what am I doing wrong?
2020-10-03T10:20:07Z beach: With Quicklisp, you download systems, not packages.
2020-10-03T10:20:55Z he-man: so. for a workflow where I envision as 1. add my functions
2020-10-03T10:20:57Z beach: The :USE clause of a DEFPACKAGE just says that your code can use the symbols in the STR package without a package prefix.  It has nothing to do with systems.
2020-10-03T10:20:59Z he-man: 2. export them
2020-10-03T10:21:09Z aeth: in CL, "packages" are just namespaces for symbols
2020-10-03T10:21:16Z he-man: yes, I know that. So I need to quickload str each time?
2020-10-03T10:21:38Z aeth: or write a .asd file in a location that Quicklisp can find
2020-10-03T10:21:50Z he-man: actually my problem is more of recognizing a structure that makes sense.
2020-10-03T10:21:50Z beach: he-man: Normally, you would create yourself an ASDF system definition file.
2020-10-03T10:21:57Z he-man: so the recommendation (as in best practice)
2020-10-03T10:22:03Z he-man: is to add a .asd file
2020-10-03T10:22:10Z he-man: which is kind of a Makefile, right?
2020-10-03T10:22:14Z beach: That file would contain a :depends-on with the names of the systems it depends on.
2020-10-03T10:22:17Z beach: Sort of, yes.
2020-10-03T10:22:39Z he-man: ok. I see
2020-10-03T10:22:51Z beach: Then, if you do (asdf:load-system <your-system-name>) then the dependencies will be automatically loaded first.
2020-10-03T10:23:25Z he-man: ok. Thank you very much, gonna give it a try.
2020-10-03T10:23:31Z beach: Good luck.
2020-10-03T10:23:50Z pve: beach: Perhaps the CL code could be added as some kind of supplementary material.
2020-10-03T10:24:13Z beach: pve: I don't understand what you are saying.
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2020-10-03T10:25:30Z beach: pve: Oh, for the book?
2020-10-03T10:25:39Z pve: beach: yes, sorry
2020-10-03T10:26:46Z beach: pve: No, the problem is that my favorite coauthor was supposed to make sure the code works by creating automatic tests, but she has no time to be my favorite coauthor anymore, and I don't have time to create such a thing.  That's why I am considering simplifying the entire thing by just using normal Common Lisp code that can be tested as usual.
2020-10-03T10:27:16Z beach: Adding Common Lisp code would double the amount of work for the code.
2020-10-03T10:28:18Z pve: Ok, I see, not practical then.
2020-10-03T10:29:09Z MichaelRaskin: And I guess you do not want to trust a previously unfamiliar project providing executable pseudocode (with Common Lisp translation and TeX rendering)
2020-10-03T10:31:28Z beach: What "previously unfamiliar project" are you referring to?
2020-10-03T10:32:01Z beach: I have Common Lisp code, but it is a bit doctored to simplify translation to TeX.
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2020-10-03T10:32:06Z beach: And I have the TeX translation.
2020-10-03T10:32:37Z beach: But the organization of the Common Lisp code does not lend itself to automatic testing the way it is currently structured.
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2020-10-03T10:34:13Z beach: I didn't mind, because it was something that my favorite coauthor would excel in doing, and she is highly organized.  But I can't face doing that myself.
2020-10-03T10:35:14Z MichaelRaskin: Hm, maybe Breanndán Ó Nualláin never published Pseudograph…
2020-10-03T10:35:29Z MichaelRaskin: (ELS2015, Executable Pseudocode for Graph Algorithms)
2020-10-03T10:35:50Z beach: I would not be able to use an existing algorithmic language if that is what you mean.
2020-10-03T10:36:08Z beach: I need generic functions, methods, packages, etc. (with different terminology of course).
2020-10-03T10:36:32Z phoe: beach: do you need help structuring your code in a way that makes it testable?
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2020-10-03T10:37:04Z beach: phoe: That is precisely the problem, yes.
2020-10-03T10:37:05Z he-man: something I do not quite understand yet is that, when I open a session in Emacs (I already created an asd file).
2020-10-03T10:37:36Z phoe: beach: I could take a look at that someday
2020-10-03T10:37:37Z he-man: I would expect my file program.lisp to be compiled because :components ((:file "myfile.lisp"))
2020-10-03T10:37:41Z beach: he-man: You start Emacs when you boot your computer.
2020-10-03T10:37:42Z he-man: is there
2020-10-03T10:37:48Z phoe: beach: come on, not always
2020-10-03T10:37:52Z beach: phoe: Oh, that would be great!
2020-10-03T10:38:11Z phoe: he-man: (asdf:load-system :my-system) should compile-and-load this tile then
2020-10-03T10:38:15Z phoe: what happens instead?
2020-10-03T10:38:38Z he-man: mmh... I was missing that... That goes in myfile.lisp?
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2020-10-03T10:38:46Z phoe: no, that goes in the REPL
2020-10-03T10:38:51Z beach: he-man: Oh, good, others to the rescue.  Then I can take my lunch break.
2020-10-03T10:39:05Z phoe: when you start a Lisp image, it is completely clean and does not have any software loaded
2020-10-03T10:39:21Z phoe: you need to explicitly load it, and ASDF is the tool for that
2020-10-03T10:39:32Z he-man: @beach there is no a need to help if you are not willing to, no problem. I came here because I was told it is the place to do it. But skip at your will.
2020-10-03T10:39:35Z phoe: Quicklisp is a wrapper over ASDF that handles automatically downloading systems from the Internet
2020-10-03T10:39:50Z phoe: and ASDF is the thing that does the loading itselfg
2020-10-03T10:39:58Z phoe: s/itselfg/itself/
2020-10-03T10:40:33Z phoe: so you can write your code in myfile.lisp and create my-system.asd that contains (defsystem #:my-system ... :components ((:file "myfile"))) and then (asdf:load-system :my-system)
2020-10-03T10:40:36Z phoe: oh! I see the issue now
2020-10-03T10:40:52Z phoe: in ASDF, you need "myfile" instead of "myfile.lisp"
2020-10-03T10:40:59Z phoe: ASDF adds the extension automatically for Lisp files
2020-10-03T10:41:07Z he-man: yes, I think I am almost done, let me give it a try. The problem is that I did not know where to put what and how to do it
2020-10-03T10:41:14Z he-man: I think I understand already: so you fire up emacs
2020-10-03T10:41:17Z he-man: and a REPL
2020-10-03T10:41:30Z he-man: your asd file contains your files to compile + depends on, etc.
2020-10-03T10:41:34Z he-man: you load the system
2020-10-03T10:41:42Z he-man: and that way you are already where you left off.
2020-10-03T10:41:44Z he-man: Correct?
2020-10-03T10:41:53Z phoe: "where you left off" is kinda imprecise
2020-10-03T10:42:05Z he-man: well. Imagine I turn off the computer
2020-10-03T10:42:13Z phoe: I'd say, that way you have the system loaded, which usually means that all of its files are compiled and loaded into the image
2020-10-03T10:42:13Z he-man: so I open emacs
2020-10-03T10:42:17Z he-man: my REPL is local
2020-10-03T10:42:19Z phoe: oh, yes, I understand now
2020-10-03T10:42:22Z he-man: so I fire a new one
2020-10-03T10:42:39Z he-man: and do the system load starting from the asd file and it will take care of the rest
2020-10-03T10:42:59Z phoe: yes
2020-10-03T10:43:01Z he-man: the last question I would have is, having this
2020-10-03T10:43:28Z he-man: (defpackage #:directory-indexer
2020-10-03T10:43:28Z he-man:   (:use :common-lisp :asdf))
2020-10-03T10:43:28Z he-man: (in-package :directory-indexer)
2020-10-03T10:43:28Z he-man: (defsystem directory-indexer
2020-10-03T10:43:28Z he-man:   :name "directory-indexer"
2020-10-03T10:43:29Z he-man:   :version "0.0.0"
2020-10-03T10:43:29Z he-man:   :maintainer "German Diago"
2020-10-03T10:43:30Z he-man:   :author "German Diago"
2020-10-03T10:43:30Z he-man:   :components ((:file "program"))
2020-10-03T10:43:31Z he-man:   :licence "MIT license"
2020-10-03T10:43:31Z he-man:   :description "Index your text files in directories and find contents"
2020-10-03T10:43:32Z he-man:   :long-description ""
2020-10-03T10:43:32Z he-man:   :depends-on ("str"))
2020-10-03T10:43:44Z phoe: please use a pastebin service
2020-10-03T10:43:50Z he-man: oh, sorry for that
2020-10-03T10:43:52Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/
2020-10-03T10:43:57Z phoe: that's the one I use
2020-10-03T10:44:43Z phoe: hmm, is that some sort of public system? creating packages in ASDF files isn't something commonplace
2020-10-03T10:45:08Z phoe: usually the only thing in .asd files is a DEFSYSTEM form; packages go into the files listed in :COMPONENTS
2020-10-03T10:45:35Z phoe: see https://github.com/phoe/phoe-toolbox/blob/master/phoe-toolbox.asd for one example of my own code
2020-10-03T10:45:42Z he-man: ok, that was exactly the question
2020-10-03T10:45:45Z he-man: you answered
2020-10-03T10:45:57Z he-man: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2068#2068 -- that is the code above
2020-10-03T10:46:00Z phoe: package.lisp contains the package definition, phoe-toolbox.lisp contains the implementation
2020-10-03T10:46:04Z he-man: I need to remove the package stuff
2020-10-03T10:46:16Z he-man: yes, I can make sense of the structure already, thanks.
2020-10-03T10:46:38Z phoe: some systems written by some people, usually very simple ones, fold even those two into one file - see phoe-toolbox/bag below
2020-10-03T10:46:40Z he-man: I am trying common lisp and probably pharo later as "the most interactive programming languages ever".
2020-10-03T10:46:49Z he-man: I am interested in seeing how it works in a server
2020-10-03T10:46:51Z phoe: they are! (given that you use the right tooling for the job)
2020-10-03T10:46:54Z he-man: without restarting
2020-10-03T10:47:22Z phoe: it usually works exactly the same way on a server - you have a swank server running on the Lisp image, and you connect to it through the 'net
2020-10-03T10:47:29Z he-man: and see how it affects deployment. I understand that in many cases you redefine things and keep going without a redeployement, which is fantastic!
2020-10-03T10:47:43Z phoe: usually with either emacs's tramp or an sshfs mount for accessing remote files
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2020-10-03T10:47:55Z he-man: yes, that is the reason why I am trying this in the first place, to see this kind of interactivity
2020-10-03T10:47:57Z phoe: and the interaction works exactly the same way as it would locally
2020-10-03T10:48:16Z phoe: since you use exactly the same protocols as you use for local development
2020-10-03T10:48:22Z beach: he-man: No, I am usually eager to help, but I have been up working for 7 hours straight and I need a break.
2020-10-03T10:48:22Z he-man: I have been mostly working in C#/C++/Python. Python is nice, but I want to go fully dynamic (in the sense of image, objects, etc.)
2020-10-03T10:48:58Z phoe: I see; objects, in what way do you mean?
2020-10-03T10:49:01Z he-man: @beach thanks for your help! It was really appreciated. I just mentioned so that you do not feel in the obligation of doing it :)
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2020-10-03T10:49:50Z he-man: well, in the case of Lisp, objects (clos) and functions
2020-10-03T10:49:58Z he-man: the nice thing as far as my understanding goes
2020-10-03T10:50:05Z he-man: is that the environment is fully dynamic
2020-10-03T10:50:11Z he-man: to the point that is alive
2020-10-03T10:50:34Z he-man: so in many cases, such as trivial bug fixes, it is viable to just connect and fix
2020-10-03T10:50:49Z he-man: without redeploying. Of course this is not a replacement for testing, etc.
2020-10-03T10:50:58Z he-man: but you get my point I guess :)
2020-10-03T10:51:00Z phoe: well, yes, developing Lisp application can turn into vivisection sometimes, in the positive meaning of the word
2020-10-03T10:51:20Z phoe: since you can end up poking and tugging on things in an alive application
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2020-10-03T10:51:50Z he-man: I had to look for that word in spanish, and after doing it in spanish, had to go to the dictionary, hahaha!
2020-10-03T10:51:53Z phoe: but this also means that you can end up harming or killing it if you tug on the wrong thing; with great power comes great responsibility, yadda yadda
2020-10-03T10:51:56Z he-man: yes, something like that
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2020-10-03T10:52:06Z he-man: yes, I guess so as well
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2020-10-03T10:53:01Z phoe: and Lisp, being the language that empowers the programmer, also gives you all the kinds of footguns to choose from; so be careful when doing this sort of stuff
2020-10-03T10:53:06Z phoe: and, other than that, hack away~
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2020-10-03T11:08:26Z he-man: is it a bad practice to add directories to asdf:*central-registry*?
2020-10-03T11:11:01Z phoe: not really
2020-10-03T11:11:06Z phoe: many people do that in their RC files
2020-10-03T11:11:25Z phoe: for instance so they can store their Lisp stuff e.g. in ~/Projects/Lisp/ and have ASDF handle that
2020-10-03T11:11:49Z he-man: I usually have my projects in ~/git/project-name
2020-10-03T11:12:01Z he-man: so I would add the dir directly, right?
2020-10-03T11:12:14Z phoe: usually one would add ~/git/
2020-10-03T11:12:33Z phoe: and then ~/git/project-name/project-name.asd would be found
2020-10-03T11:12:43Z he-man: then I am not sure how to load, I see a :symbol in asdf:load-system calls I found around
2020-10-03T11:12:54Z he-man: so I do:
2020-10-03T11:13:14Z he-man: (asdf:load-system :my-project) and provided that I have
2020-10-03T11:13:23Z he-man: ~/git in the registry
2020-10-03T11:13:36Z he-man: it will find my-project/my-project.asd
2020-10-03T11:15:12Z phoe: yes
2020-10-03T11:15:34Z phoe: :my-project gets coerced into "my-project" which is used to load the system from the file my-project.asd
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2020-10-03T11:21:42Z he-man: I suspect I am doing something wrong. I put this in my .sbclrc file. Maybe at that time asdf is not loaded?
2020-10-03T11:21:49Z he-man: this:
2020-10-03T11:22:13Z phoe: ;; remember about the pastebin!
2020-10-03T11:22:31Z he-man: just one line is ok here? not pasting a ton of code.
2020-10-03T11:22:36Z phoe: oh, sure
2020-10-03T11:23:05Z he-man: (setf asdf:*central-registry* (cons "/home/he-man/git" asdf:*central-registry*))
2020-10-03T11:23:11Z he-man: something like that
2020-10-03T11:23:35Z he-man: but sbcl connection does not start anymore and Emacs hangs. I guess because of an init error
2020-10-03T11:23:47Z phoe: you'll likely want #P"/home/he-man/git" to have a pathname object instead of a string
2020-10-03T11:23:58Z phoe: check what the *inferior-lisp* buffer in emacs says
2020-10-03T11:24:01Z he-man: oh, yes, it is that in fact
2020-10-03T11:24:09Z he-man: It showed the #P
2020-10-03T11:24:16Z he-man: it is a path literal
2020-10-03T11:24:19Z phoe: good
2020-10-03T11:24:28Z phoe: then check the contents of *inferior-lisp* buffer in emacs
2020-10-03T11:24:36Z phoe: that'll tell you why slime REPL has failed to boot
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2020-10-03T11:42:25Z he-man: thx. Need to have a break now but continue later. Thanks for all your support @phoe
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2020-10-03T11:50:32Z jackdaniel: mseddon: yes, it is located here: https://github.com/TurtleWarePL/eu.turtleware.charming-clim ; everything is in a quite wip state though
2020-10-03T11:51:10Z jackdaniel: you may also find some early rationale on my blog behind some decisions
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2020-10-03T12:18:23Z Lycurgus: actually it's renunciation of citizenship by higher net worth individuals that's up. So much so that they're now charging a stiff fee for it.
2020-10-03T12:18:53Z beach: ?
2020-10-03T12:19:08Z Lycurgus: sorry wrong channel
2020-10-03T12:19:12Z beach: Ah!
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2020-10-03T13:12:36Z he-man: exit
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2020-10-03T13:25:46Z he-man: I could not load my system after setting my .sbclrc set up to find system packages
2020-10-03T13:26:07Z he-man: I did in the REPL: (asdf:load-system :directory-indexer)
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2020-10-03T13:26:13Z he-man: with the setup like this:
2020-10-03T13:26:49Z he-man: https://www.codepile.net/pile/p7nXWdgn
2020-10-03T13:27:21Z he-man: could anyone give a quick hand? thanks!
2020-10-03T13:27:30Z phoe: he-man: what is the error message that you get?
2020-10-03T13:27:54Z phoe: also, you do not need to :use :asdf in DEFPACKAGE
2020-10-03T13:28:40Z he-man: [Condition of type ASDF/FIND-COMPONENT:MISSING-COMPONENT]
2020-10-03T13:30:43Z he-man: true, that was from before, removed
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2020-10-03T13:32:25Z he-man: it seems it is the str dependency what breaks
2020-10-03T13:32:35Z he-man: : [RETRY] Retry loading str.
2020-10-03T13:33:03Z he-man: I have to do (ql:quickload "str") anywhere or it should be handled by asdf?
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2020-10-03T13:34:55Z he-man: I do not get autocompletion on ql, maybe I am missing quicklisp? @phoe
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2020-10-03T13:40:30Z phoe: oooh
2020-10-03T13:40:40Z phoe: do you have ~/quicklisp/?
2020-10-03T13:40:44Z phoe: if not, install it
2020-10-03T13:40:51Z phoe: the instructions are on its web page
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2020-10-03T13:41:24Z phoe: then (ql:quickload :my-project) will also download all dependencies from quicklisp
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2020-10-03T13:45:54Z he-man: I do have the directory ~/quicklisp
2020-10-03T13:46:04Z he-man: I downloaded by hand and used the dependency before
2020-10-03T13:46:11Z he-man: *BUT* when restarting emacs
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2020-10-03T13:46:51Z he-man: It is like it vanishes. It is not on the module load path or something. (in the python sense)
2020-10-03T13:47:18Z he-man: my question is more: where should I put (ql:quickload)
2020-10-03T13:47:23Z he-man: in the REPL?
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2020-10-03T13:47:48Z he-man: I want a reproducible environment. Just enter, run something (probably that is asdf:load-system)
2020-10-03T13:48:12Z he-man: and that everything just works. But I am not sure where quickload should gol
2020-10-03T13:48:14Z he-man: go
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2020-10-03T13:56:44Z phoe: oh, one second
2020-10-03T13:56:58Z phoe: (load #p"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp) (ql:add-to-init-file)
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2020-10-03T14:43:45Z shaman_king: lisp utter shite
2020-10-03T14:45:47Z beach: I am sure you have better things to do than that.
2020-10-03T14:45:55Z contrapunctus: shaman_king: do you feel frustrated because you need help?
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2020-10-03T14:46:12Z beach makes use of /ignore.
2020-10-03T14:46:29Z saganman: I think they are just a troll
2020-10-03T14:46:35Z beach: Of course.
2020-10-03T14:47:12Z shaman_king: i think its more to do with the terrible syntax
2020-10-03T14:47:31Z beach: From a real person one could have expected a grammatically correct sentence.
2020-10-03T14:48:22Z shaman_king: its terrible
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2020-10-03T14:48:35Z saganman: shaman_king: Terrible or not, no one is forcing you to use lisp. If you don't like it, don't use it. Don't force your opinions on others.
2020-10-03T14:48:42Z shaman_king: but i want to
2020-10-03T14:49:37Z shaman_king: fix the syntax
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2020-10-03T14:50:19Z MichaelRaskin: You are not the first and there are multiple projects providing different syntax
2020-10-03T14:50:36Z MichaelRaskin: Somehow they all get abandoned.
2020-10-03T14:51:00Z shaman_king: well
2020-10-03T14:51:14Z shaman_king: let me takeover the project, i will make changes
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2020-10-03T14:53:14Z v28flflfl: i made a function that loads functions from a file and evals them at runtime, and it works? how the hell doe sthat work? doesn't sbcl have to compile them, or is the sbcl runtime so to speak always there?
2020-10-03T14:53:34Z sm2n: you can access the compiler at runtime
2020-10-03T14:53:42Z shaman_king: go away, this channel is moving to quakenet
2020-10-03T14:54:02Z v28flflfl: fuck me
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2020-10-03T14:54:20Z sm2n: in fact, it goes even further than that
2020-10-03T14:54:22Z shaman_king: another happy lisp customer
2020-10-03T14:54:56Z sm2n: sbcl exposes an api you can use at runtime, being written in cl itself
2020-10-03T14:55:02Z shaman_king: stfu
2020-10-03T14:55:08Z beach: sm2n: I think the person left.
2020-10-03T14:55:14Z sm2n: oh
2020-10-03T14:55:17Z shaman_king: good on him
2020-10-03T14:55:24Z shaman_king: this channel is ABANDONWARE now
2020-10-03T14:55:58Z sm2n: beach, I think you are the right person to ask. I want to learn more about the MOP, what is a good way of doing so?
2020-10-03T14:56:05Z shaman_king: nope
2020-10-03T14:56:34Z beach: The book is a good start.
2020-10-03T14:56:39Z shaman_king: no
2020-10-03T14:56:41Z shaman_king: its not
2020-10-03T14:56:51Z beach: Actually, maybe not so good.
2020-10-03T14:56:56Z shaman_king: yea
2020-10-03T14:56:57Z shaman_king: its not
2020-10-03T14:56:58Z beach: But I don't think there is anything better.
2020-10-03T14:57:04Z shaman_king: use googal
2020-10-03T14:57:11Z sm2n: I see
2020-10-03T14:57:18Z shaman_king: no you dont
2020-10-03T14:57:22Z sm2n: I guess I just have to play with the code after all
2020-10-03T14:57:35Z shaman_king: play with your willie
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2020-10-03T14:58:02Z beach: sm2n: You just want to learn it as a user, yes?
2020-10-03T14:58:21Z sm2n: not necessarily, but that is a good start
2020-10-03T14:58:30Z sm2n: I am interested in implementation as well however
2020-10-03T14:58:31Z beach: sm2n: I guess you can look at the specification on the metamodular website.
2020-10-03T14:58:40Z beach: Then the book is good.
2020-10-03T14:58:59Z sm2n: isn't that just the last 2 chapters from the book?
2020-10-03T14:59:12Z beach: Chapters 5 and 6 as I recall.
2020-10-03T14:59:18Z sm2n: alright, thanks
2020-10-03T14:59:32Z beach: But the site is actually better organized than that those chapters.
2020-10-03T14:59:42Z beach: And there are cross references in the form of links.
2020-10-03T14:59:53Z sm2n: I see
2020-10-03T15:00:31Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/table-of-contents.html
2020-10-03T15:00:50Z sm2n: if I were to provide you with a stylesheet, would you consider applying it?
2020-10-03T15:01:06Z beach: To make it look different?
2020-10-03T15:01:15Z sm2n: to be quite frank I don't find it very readable currently
2020-10-03T15:01:18Z sm2n: yes
2020-10-03T15:01:25Z beach: What is wrong with it?
2020-10-03T15:01:49Z sm2n: the main issue is the line length
2020-10-03T15:02:18Z sm2n: rule of thumb in typography is you want about ~60 chars a line or so
2020-10-03T15:02:27Z sm2n: for optimal reading
2020-10-03T15:02:42Z beach: I don't set the line length.  It adapts to the width of the browser window.
2020-10-03T15:02:54Z sm2n: that is the issue
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2020-10-03T15:03:12Z beach: Hmm.
2020-10-03T15:03:37Z MichaelRaskin: Actually, for many readers it is better this way
2020-10-03T15:03:52Z beach: sm2n: That's a nice offer, but I don't think I am willing to mess with web stuff like that.
2020-10-03T15:03:57Z MichaelRaskin: Because if width is not specified, you can resize the window to desired width, but if it is hardcoded…
2020-10-03T15:04:34Z sm2n: alright then
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2020-10-03T15:29:08Z sm2n: well, I ended up writing a userstyle (basically a stylesheet loaded client-side) for myself anyway
2020-10-03T15:29:17Z sm2n: 8 lines of css, and it looks decent imo
2020-10-03T15:29:35Z sm2n: works on clhs as well funnily enough
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2020-10-03T15:30:51Z beach: Great!
2020-10-03T15:31:13Z beach: That's a much better solution I think.
2020-10-03T15:31:36Z sm2n: I'll upload it somewhere later if anyone else wants it
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2020-10-03T15:32:41Z contrapunctus: beach, sm2n: I nick CSS for my personal Org/Markdown HTML exports from here, it works well most of the time. http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/
2020-10-03T15:32:51Z sm2n: yeah that was the inspiration
2020-10-03T15:33:38Z contrapunctus: No need for reader mode on mobile that way.
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2020-10-03T15:34:50Z beach: I just can't deal with web stuff.  Someone (I forget who it was) already made what he claims to be a much better version of my MOP site, and told me that I should encourage everyone to use his version instead.  But I told him that it is fine if he convinces everyone.  I consider my work done.
2020-10-03T15:35:38Z beach: The someone is known in various forums, and not necessarily for his politeness.  I just can't remember his name now.
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2020-10-03T15:38:16Z beach: Ah, Jean-Philippe Paradis!
2020-10-03T15:39:14Z beach: He also sent a link to his version to stassats so that minion would use his instead, but that must not have happened.
2020-10-03T15:40:27Z beach: https://clos-mop.hexstreamsoft.com/ is his site.
2020-10-03T15:40:34Z beach: In case anyone likes it better.
2020-10-03T15:41:04Z sm2n: I see
2020-10-03T15:41:13Z sm2n: unfortunately, that has the same issue
2020-10-03T15:41:19Z sm2n: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2069#2069
2020-10-03T15:41:25Z sm2n: here is the style if anyone wants it
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2020-10-03T15:41:37Z sm2n: you can use it with the "stylus" browser extension
2020-10-03T15:41:42Z Kabriel: I must have a backwards browser, because that site is difficult to read.
2020-10-03T15:42:03Z Kabriel: ^ for me to read
2020-10-03T15:42:20Z sm2n: replace the link to clhs with a http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ for mop
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2020-10-03T16:25:52Z saganman: how do you peeps exit slime? do you all say ,sayoonara?
2020-10-03T16:26:57Z isBEKaml: C-d didn't work?
2020-10-03T16:27:03Z beach: I exit when my computer crashes.
2020-10-03T16:27:08Z isBEKaml: or C-c C-d
2020-10-03T16:27:16Z saganman: isBEKaml: I don't know that
2020-10-03T16:27:17Z beach: Why would you want to exit?
2020-10-03T16:27:27Z saganman: lol beach
2020-10-03T16:27:45Z isBEKaml: beach: lol -- why do you want to exit? Ain't life good enough for you?
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2020-10-03T16:29:21Z saganman: all set to go to code lisp now!
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2020-10-03T19:10:10Z sm2n: what's the best way to case on a string, they aren't eq, so case doesn't work
2020-10-03T19:11:19Z sm2n: oh, trivia's match works
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2020-10-03T19:11:37Z mfiano-: CASE uses EQL not EQ, but that still won't help you. Use cond or alexandria has a switch that may be useful
2020-10-03T19:14:20Z sm2n: mfiano-, thanks
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2020-10-03T19:28:19Z MichaelRaskin: There is also string-case
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2020-10-03T19:28:33Z MichaelRaskin: Which seems to optimise the comparison by looking at the common substrings
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2020-10-03T19:36:16Z sm2n: where is that?
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2020-10-03T19:52:20Z phoe: (ql:quickload :string-case)
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2020-10-03T20:36:16Z sm2n: oh
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2020-10-03T22:37:41Z sm2n: I'm reading the uiop:launch-program documentation, it has a function wait-process, which blocks on the async spawned process, and it seems to be indicating that it is necessary to run
2020-10-03T22:37:50Z sm2n: "Any asynchronously spawned process requires this function to be run before it is garbage-collected in order to free up resources that might otherwise be irrevocably lost."
2020-10-03T22:38:13Z sm2n: what's actually getting collected here?
2020-10-03T22:38:40Z sm2n: I can't block my event loop here, so do I have to move into another thread?
2020-10-03T22:41:00Z moon-child: sm2n: there is also uiop:process-alive-p you can use to check if the process is still running
2020-10-03T22:42:34Z sm2n: so the idiom would be (if (not (process-alive-p ...)) (wait-process ..)) ?
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2020-10-03T22:53:17Z aeth: sm2n: the opposite
2020-10-03T22:54:22Z sm2n: what do you mean?
2020-10-03T22:54:23Z aeth: sm2n: (when (process-alive-p process) #| do other stuff here, like send a quit command |# (wait-process process) #| read all of the leftover output here |#)
2020-10-03T22:54:36Z aeth: you do it when the process is alive at the end of your program.
2020-10-03T22:54:50Z aeth: the code I sent might hang if the process hangs, though.
2020-10-03T22:55:00Z aeth: Maybe there's a way to force close after x seconds
2020-10-03T22:58:47Z aeth: By send a quit command I mean, e.g. if the process is "dc" then you'd send "q"
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2020-10-03T23:09:44Z sm2n: oh
2020-10-03T23:10:02Z sm2n: well, the point here is that I know the program in question will terminate
2020-10-03T23:10:18Z sm2n: and when it does I want to spawn another
2020-10-03T23:10:33Z sm2n: but I don't want any stuff hanging around, obviously
2020-10-03T23:11:51Z sm2n: this is all in an event loop, so I don't want to block on it
2020-10-03T23:13:05Z sm2n: I'm questioning whether I have to call uiop:wait-process at all, the documentation seems to point to yes, but I can't see why
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2020-10-03T23:14:10Z sm2n: also, it sucks that the process-info interface isn't monadic
2020-10-03T23:14:26Z sm2n: (process-alive-p nil) is an error, not nil
2020-10-03T23:14:39Z sm2n: so I have to special case initialization
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2020-10-03T23:19:13Z aeth: sm2n: that one's easy... (defun process-alive-p* (maybe-process) (and maybe-process (uiop:process-alive-p maybe-process)))
2020-10-03T23:21:10Z sm2n: aeth, true
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2020-10-03T23:34:26Z sm2n: oh I see
2020-10-03T23:34:31Z sm2n: it makes sense actually
2020-10-03T23:34:52Z sm2n: you wouldn't want to lose the return code of a process that exited
2020-10-03T23:35:19Z sm2n: but I don't see why the gc wouldn't pick it up if you ignored it
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2020-10-03T23:47:08Z aeth: sm2n: it might create a resource that can't be garbage collected, though. At least, not without a finalizer, which you can't really rely on
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2020-10-03T23:55:05Z sm2n: aeth, I see
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2020-10-03T23:56:46Z aeth: sm2n: since it's just a portability library, it's probably the case in some but not all implementations
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2020-10-03T23:58:37Z aeth: sm2n: If you don't want to block the main thread you could always just put the process into a "cleanup" queue in another thread that calls WAIT-PROCESS and then moves onto the next one.
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2020-10-03T23:59:23Z mfiano-: Friends don't let friends finalize
2020-10-03T23:59:40Z sm2n: aeth, I ended up going with what I originally posted, with calling wait-process only after the process exits
2020-10-03T23:59:53Z sm2n: seems to work for my purposes
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2020-10-04T00:08:18Z jedii: hey its gavno
2020-10-04T00:08:25Z jedii: and we be civil n not boot me
2020-10-04T00:08:30Z jedii: I have some questions
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2020-10-04T01:35:22Z iissaacc: afternoon
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2020-10-04T03:00:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-04T03:11:23Z edgar-rft: yawn
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2020-10-04T03:39:23Z aaaaaa: beach: !
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2020-10-04T04:06:43Z kreyren_: How can i get value of an environment variable?
2020-10-04T04:06:50Z kreyren_: basically looking for (getenv "VAR") from elisp x.x
2020-10-04T04:07:53Z no-defun-allowed: (uiop:getenv "USER")
2020-10-04T04:09:03Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, thanks ^-^
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2020-10-04T04:09:33Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, > (uiop:getenv "USER")
2020-10-04T04:09:34Z kreyren_: ahh
2020-10-04T04:09:40Z kreyren_: There is no package with the name UIOP..
2020-10-04T04:09:55Z kreyren_: note this being ecl
2020-10-04T04:10:05Z no-defun-allowed: Best load it them, with something like (ql:quickload :uiop)
2020-10-04T04:10:34Z kreyren_: > There is no package with the name QL..
2020-10-04T04:10:35Z no-defun-allowed: In ECL, (ext:getenv "USER") will work, but I really don't like writing implementation-dependent code.
2020-10-04T04:10:50Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, what do you recommend then?
2020-10-04T04:11:09Z tychoish: can you install quicklisp?
2020-10-04T04:11:12Z no-defun-allowed: Well, probably installing Quicklisp so you can use UIOP.
2020-10-04T04:11:28Z tychoish: uiop is a component in asdf
2020-10-04T04:11:44Z tychoish: what version of ecl are you running?
2020-10-04T04:12:02Z kreyren_: ECL 20.4.24
2020-10-04T04:12:17Z tychoish: hrm, same as what I'm using,
2020-10-04T04:12:54Z kreyren_: what's implementation-dependent code in this scenario though?
2020-10-04T04:13:12Z kreyren_ would think that importing packages to his ecl would make it more dependent on the configuration
2020-10-04T04:13:29Z kreyren_ 's trying to write his ecl to work on as many systems as possible
2020-10-04T04:13:29Z tychoish: (ext:getenv "foo") is something specific to the ECL implementation
2020-10-04T04:14:00Z tychoish: ah, so here's a concept that you might not be used to, that CL folks will talk about a lot.
2020-10-04T04:14:03Z kreyren_: so that won't work on ccl ?
2020-10-04T04:14:52Z tychoish: so there are lots of different implementations of Common Lisp which have their own extension set (SBCL has functions that start with "sb-" and ecl has ones that start with 'ext" and if you're on SBCL you can't use ECL functions and vice versa
2020-10-04T04:15:30Z tychoish: if you stick to only ECL or only SBCL your code works on any version of ECL or SBCL on any system (more or less.)
2020-10-04T04:15:53Z kreyren_: is that a bad thing for compatibility to stick only to ECL/SBCL ?
2020-10-04T04:16:15Z tychoish: if you have a dependency on a library, that's written in pure standard compliant common lisp, which many (most?) are, then your code should run on EITHER sbcl or ecl (or any of the others.)
2020-10-04T04:16:48Z kreyren_: and that won't break compatibility right?
2020-10-04T04:16:52Z tychoish: nope
2020-10-04T04:16:54Z tychoish: works great
2020-10-04T04:16:59Z kreyren_: i see O.o
2020-10-04T04:17:25Z kreyren_: What is the better implementation then? Installing quicklisp then loading uiop ?
2020-10-04T04:17:40Z kreyren_: also is there some kind of linting that would capture this?
2020-10-04T04:17:43Z tychoish: so UIOP is a compatibility layer that provides a common interaface to lots of common systems-type functions (getenv/setenv/getwd)
2020-10-04T04:18:05Z tychoish: I'm not aware of a good linter for portability.
2020-10-04T04:18:30Z tychoish: most implementations that people use support quicklisp
2020-10-04T04:18:34Z tychoish: (all?)
2020-10-04T04:18:41Z kreyren_: checking
2020-10-04T04:19:26Z tychoish: so there's this package called asdf which is a build system tool for common lisp packages (it's like setuptools or distutil from python, say)
2020-10-04T04:19:42Z tychoish: and everyone / everything uses it (more or less).
2020-10-04T04:19:54Z tychoish: and uiop is a component of asdf so it's really everywhere.
2020-10-04T04:22:39Z kreyren_ is still not sure how to get `(write-line (uiop:getenv "VAR"))` to work in ecl
2020-10-04T04:24:20Z kreyren_: So is quicklisp a package from the distro or ?
2020-10-04T04:24:33Z tychoish: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/
2020-10-04T04:26:16Z saganman: Morning Everyone!
2020-10-04T04:26:25Z kreyren_: tychoish, debian has this as a package, but should i vendor this? assuming that my code is called from a Makefile.toml loaded using cargo-make
2020-10-04T04:26:51Z kreyren_ is not sure what is the better way for compatibility across multiple systems
2020-10-04T04:28:07Z Alfr: kreyren_, if your package is mostly list, stick to asdf. The other case will be a mess either way.
2020-10-04T04:28:14Z tychoish: kreyren_: I don't really know what you're trying to do or what the practical requirements are. I'd get it working locally and then try and decided.
2020-10-04T04:28:21Z tychoish: and decide from there
2020-10-04T04:28:23Z Alfr: s/list/lisp/
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2020-10-04T04:30:15Z kreyren_: tychoish, if that makes sense: http://ix.io/2zF9 basically defining a makefile where instead of POSIX sh i am using common lisp so that it works on legacy systems
2020-10-04T04:31:02Z kreyren_: so `makers kreyren` will invoke ecl --shell <generated-file>.cl
2020-10-04T04:32:07Z tychoish: yeah, I dunno.
2020-10-04T04:32:17Z kreyren_: x.x
2020-10-04T04:32:34Z kreyren_: saganman, mornin' ^-^
2020-10-04T04:32:35Z tychoish: the set of systems that don't have posix shells but do have ECL? I don't think that exists.
2020-10-04T04:33:06Z tychoish: but good luck!
2020-10-04T04:33:37Z kreyren_: tychoish, Allegedly VAX are that way as they only have bourne shell (bsh)
2020-10-04T04:34:20Z tychoish: yeah, but I don't think ECL runs on VAX, and
2020-10-04T04:34:24Z kreyren_: also why is ecl a thing when ccl using can interpret the suggested code? Woudn't that make it embeddable ?
2020-10-04T04:34:50Z tychoish: but also no one's writing new software for VAXes
2020-10-04T04:34:51Z kreyren_: tychoish, apparently the users are exporting the C99 to work there O.o
2020-10-04T04:35:03Z tychoish: meh?
2020-10-04T04:35:10Z tychoish: haha
2020-10-04T04:35:16Z no-defun-allowed: ECL has a bytecode interpreter and C generator, which can be more portable than Clozure's native code compiler.
2020-10-04T04:36:30Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know what platforms ECL supports, so don't take this example too literally, but you could run the former but not the latter on a Linux system with C99 compiler on a MIPS processor.
2020-10-04T04:36:52Z kreyren_: ah i see O.o
2020-10-04T04:36:57Z saganman: I always learn something new from this channel
2020-10-04T04:37:39Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, ECL officially supports x86, SPARC, Alpha, PowerPC and ARM processors, whereas Clozure only supports x86 and ARM.
2020-10-04T04:38:51Z Alfr: kreyren_, why not write your script completly in cl? And then use asdf to dump one lisp file (as asdf does for itself).
2020-10-04T04:40:21Z kreyren_: Alfr, dunno yet, currently investigating the option
2020-10-04T04:42:25Z Alfr: kreyren_, concatenate-source-op and monolithic-concatenate-source-op could be what you want. https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Predefined-operations-of-ASDF.html#Predefined-operations-of-ASDF
2020-10-04T04:43:02Z kreyren_: Alfr, elaborate on the usecase?
2020-10-04T04:45:50Z Alfr: .asd files describe systems and how to load them, essentially file dependencies, and ASDF can use that description to load such a system into the running lisp.
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2020-10-04T04:47:53Z kreyren_: Alfr, do you have proof of concept or something? from provide don't understand how could that be implemented
2020-10-04T04:48:44Z Alfr: Konwing that, it can also concatenate the component files of a system into a single file, so that loading it would have the same results (usually minus compilation) as using ASDF's load-system directly.
2020-10-04T04:49:02Z kreyren_: x.x
2020-10-04T04:49:12Z Alfr: kreyren_, that's already implemented to package ASDF itself.
2020-10-04T04:52:06Z kreyren_: Alfr, so basically .asdf is quicklisp with bunch of metadata at it's header?
2020-10-04T04:52:50Z Alfr: kreyren_, no. It doesn't download systems for you. And Quicklisp is built upon ASDF.
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2020-10-04T04:55:27Z kreyren_ is even more confused
2020-10-04T04:56:55Z Alfr: kreyren_, https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/blob/master/asdf.asd
2020-10-04T04:58:02Z Alfr: It essentially defines component dependencies, and specifies :build-operation as monolithic-concatenate-source-op .
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2020-10-04T05:00:49Z kreyren_: i see O.o
2020-10-04T05:00:53Z kreyren_: checking
2020-10-04T05:01:05Z Alfr: Calling (asdf:make :asdf), I think, will then generate a lisp file, which includes all dependencies (uiop and asdf itself).
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2020-10-04T05:05:33Z bhartrihari: kreyren_: An asdf system definition basically allows you to describe how to load your lisp code (from the file system). (eg. what files to load, what order to load them in, dependencies etc.).
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2020-10-04T05:06:35Z kreyren_: Is there a way to silence this part? https://i.imgur.com/JULUUQv.png
2020-10-04T05:08:36Z bhartrihari: kreyren_: If you're using quicklisp then (ql:quickload :package-name :silent t) should do it.
2020-10-04T05:09:17Z kreyren_: bhartrihari, still says loading https://i.imgur.com/dg5FMfU.png
2020-10-04T05:10:27Z Alfr: As I understand it, he wants it free standing and usable with only cl/ecl as a requirement.
2020-10-04T05:11:26Z bhartrihari: That is from the `load` form, not quicklisp. (load "filename.lisp" :verbose nil) should silence that comment.
2020-10-04T05:11:33Z bhartrihari: kreyren_: ^^
2020-10-04T05:12:20Z kreyren_: but i am already using :verbose nil x.x
2020-10-04T05:12:40Z bhartrihari: Ah. I missed that.
2020-10-04T05:13:19Z bhartrihari: Just a minute
2020-10-04T05:13:34Z bhartrihari: There's perhaps some code in setup.lisp that is causing that.
2020-10-04T05:17:02Z Alfr: kreyren_, :print nil
2020-10-04T05:17:08Z no-defun-allowed: I think ECL writes those lines when you load files.
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2020-10-04T05:17:47Z kreyren_: Alfr, still https://i.imgur.com/p5D8o9T.png
2020-10-04T05:18:05Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, yep seems to be.. well it's not problematic so i think i don't mind these in O.o
2020-10-04T05:18:10Z Alfr: kreyren_, that was meant for the load-form. :)
2020-10-04T05:18:51Z kreyren_: Alfr, https://i.imgur.com/NVi47Rm.png that made it worse :p
2020-10-04T05:19:04Z kreyren_: also https://i.imgur.com/8IL69wL.png
2020-10-04T05:21:03Z no-defun-allowed: (setf *load-verbose* nil) beforehand.
2020-10-04T05:21:21Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, works! thanks ^-^
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2020-10-04T05:25:03Z Alfr: Something already sets it to nil in my init.
2020-10-04T05:25:27Z kreyren_: O.o i am using --norc for that usecase
2020-10-04T05:26:04Z kreyren_: Can i use asdf so that the runtime woudn't require these lines? https://i.imgur.com/hql6Erp.png
2020-10-04T05:26:22Z kreyren_: i.e in https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/-/blob/master/asdf.asd can that be defined at the header of the file or something?
2020-10-04T05:30:34Z kreyren_ expects only `(write-line (uiop:getenv "MESSAGE"))` and simmilar content in the `script` that is compatibility friendly so that the code is not bloated
2020-10-04T05:33:16Z kreyren_: ah apparently i can
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2020-10-04T05:39:11Z Alfr: Seems that requiring asdf sets it to nil, interesting.
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2020-10-04T05:50:24Z no-defun-allowed: Some day I'll ask if you could use a paste service so I can run the code without having to transcribe it, but that day isn't today.
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2020-10-04T05:52:13Z no-defun-allowed: Could you configure the scripting program that runs ECL to prepend loading ASDF and include the arguments to ECL? A user probably doesn't need to know how you invoke ECL either.
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2020-10-04T07:28:42Z moon-child: when I load quicklisp from sbcl, I get a lot of warnings like 'In source-registry entry /usr/local/lib/sbcl// found several entries for sb-sprof - picking #P"/usr/local/lib/sbcl/contrib/sb-sprof.asd" over #P"/usr/local/lib/sbcl/sb-sprof/sb-sprof.asd"'
2020-10-04T07:29:06Z moon-child: (don't get that from ccl or from sbcl without quicklisp)
2020-10-04T07:29:46Z moon-child: anyone have any clues about that?
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2020-10-04T07:40:41Z no-defun-allowed: Well, it appears the contribs could be installed twice.
2020-10-04T07:40:50Z easye: moon-child: when loaded, Quicklisp configures ASDF to find additional systems.  What exactly is happening is unclear, but it kinda looks like sbcl has a funny installation.
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2020-10-04T07:44:30Z moon-child: oh, I see; apologies.  It looks like the port has a note about this, saying to modify a config file if using quicklisp
2020-10-04T07:51:09Z easye: moon-child: having SBCL configured this way probably isn't fatal, as the systems are presumably identical, but it is probably nice to have less noise.
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2020-10-04T13:18:36Z Guest73536: Can your favorite CL compiler repeat the optimization mentioned in PAIP P.279?
2020-10-04T13:18:38Z Guest73536: https://books.google.co.il/books?id=QzGuHnDhvZIC&pg=PA279#v=onepage&q&f=false
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2020-10-04T13:23:07Z beach: I don't know, but it doesn't look very hard.
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2020-10-04T13:23:49Z beach: Except that there is some semantic violations in that code.
2020-10-04T13:24:46Z beach: It is possible that L is not a list, so that has to be tested for, unless you have a very low safety setting and the compiler takes advantage of it.
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2020-10-04T13:25:52Z beach: Er, hold on...
2020-10-04T13:26:54Z beach: The first argument to EXPT is N, provided N is a number.  That has to be tested for too.
2020-10-04T13:28:00Z beach: The second argument is -2 and the compiler can figure that out.
2020-10-04T13:30:38Z beach: I don't see how the disassembly corresponds to that code.
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2020-10-04T13:31:50Z beach: Oh, sorry, the second argument is 2.  Duh!
2020-10-04T13:35:25Z beach: Guest73536: If you want Common Lisp to be a safe language, neither function can be optimized that much.
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2020-10-04T13:36:02Z beach: Guest73536: But with enough declarations and a low safety, perhaps.  I would not generate code like that myself.
2020-10-04T13:37:11Z beach: Also, there is hidden complexity.  Even if N is a number, it could be a bignum, or a complex number, so the * operator is not free.
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2020-10-04T13:46:37Z Guest73536: Declaring type function input type doesn't help. Even changing F1 as follows does not:
2020-10-04T13:47:29Z Guest73536: https://paste.gnome.org/pmtrc4ps8
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2020-10-04T14:12:40Z _death: sbcl does reduce (length '(a b)) to 2.. a direct (length (list ...)) should be easy, but likely not worth it
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2020-10-04T14:46:51Z decentyousername: Hi guys. I remember that there was a website which provided a preconfigured emacs for Common Lisp development. It had dark CSS. Anyone know what I mean?
2020-10-04T14:47:13Z _death: portacle?
2020-10-04T14:47:52Z decentyousername: could be
2020-10-04T14:48:00Z saganman: is anyone using rcirc?
2020-10-04T14:48:15Z decentyousername: _death: thanks. I was looking for portacle.
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2020-10-04T15:15:01Z coltkirk: hi, where is the newbie channel? the beginner question area
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2020-10-04T15:16:26Z coltkirk: i wrote an algorithm that, although it works it's very non-elegant, was curious to get some feedback while it's fresh on my mind
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2020-10-04T15:17:45Z mfiano-: #clschool is the Common Lisp beginners channel.
2020-10-04T15:18:31Z coltkirk: thanks
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2020-10-04T15:19:42Z coltkirk: i'll write a note in my .emacs file as to not forget the name of that channel
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2020-10-04T23:47:43Z moon-child: anyone using cl-conspack?  Is there any way to get it to automatically intern symbols?
2020-10-05T00:02:18Z aeth: I guess it's a bit early to ask, but will there be an ELS 2021?
2020-10-05T00:06:19Z White_Flame: electronic lisp symposium?
2020-10-05T00:07:25Z aeth: well, yeah, the next question is if it will be physical or not
2020-10-05T00:11:43Z Gnuxie[m]: It's a good question because the goverment consistently mishandles covid and brexit
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2020-10-05T00:13:41Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know how long I'd have to prepare beforehand to get from down under to Cambridge.
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2020-10-05T01:13:04Z JohnTalent: What is a good web framework for Common Lisp?
2020-10-05T01:15:57Z moon-child: JohnTalent: afaik clack and hutchentoot are popular.  (Haven't made anything beyond a toy webapp in cl, so can't properly vouch for either.)
2020-10-05T01:17:49Z JohnTalent: moon-child: ok! :)
2020-10-05T01:17:50Z dbotton: what is key difference between them?
2020-10-05T01:21:40Z JohnTalent: Is there a non-duck types version of Common Lisp?
2020-10-05T01:21:48Z JohnTalent: s/types/typed
2020-10-05T01:23:05Z no-defun-allowed: Common Lisp isn't duck typed to begin with.
2020-10-05T01:23:39Z moon-child: JohnTalent: as far as static typing goes, there's https://github.com/stylewarning/coalton and typed racket.  But nothing pure cl as far as I know
2020-10-05T01:24:06Z JohnTalent: no-defun-allowed: quack!
2020-10-05T01:24:33Z no-defun-allowed: JohnTalent: Is that so?
2020-10-05T01:25:03Z sm2n: JohnTalent, what exactly do you want?
2020-10-05T01:25:15Z sm2n: types are used for different purposes
2020-10-05T01:25:27Z Bike: there's only one version of the stand
2020-10-05T01:25:36Z Bike: ard
2020-10-05T01:26:07Z JohnTalent: sm2n: Not to have a stateful system using types.
2020-10-05T01:26:31Z sm2n: how are the statefullness of your system and types related?
2020-10-05T01:26:34Z JohnTalent: opps.
2020-10-05T01:26:45Z JohnTalent: I mean not to have states, but using types but using lisp.
2020-10-05T01:27:13Z JohnTalent: sm2n: It's a conjunction, not a union.
2020-10-05T01:27:31Z Bike: what are you talking about.
2020-10-05T01:27:45Z JohnTalent: Bike: programming languages, what are you talking about?
2020-10-05T01:27:54Z sm2n: you want to write code that uses immutable data structures, that also has types, in lisp?
2020-10-05T01:28:04Z JohnTalent: sm2n: exactly.
2020-10-05T01:28:27Z Bike: immutability is orthogonal to duck typing, no?
2020-10-05T01:28:32Z sm2n: sure, you can do that, just don't use setf, etc
2020-10-05T01:28:49Z Bike: and please don't blow me off, i'm trying to help, here.
2020-10-05T01:29:05Z sm2n: it is
2020-10-05T01:29:34Z sm2n: there is https://github.com/stylewarning/cl-algebraic-data-type if you want algebraic data types for exhaustive matching
2020-10-05T01:29:44Z sm2n: which is a common feature from the ml family
2020-10-05T01:30:25Z JohnTalent: Bike: The ability to have mutable structures cannot optimize for a true stateless system.
2020-10-05T01:30:50Z Bike: i'm just saying that if what you want is immutability, we'll be more helpful if you say you want immutability.
2020-10-05T01:31:06Z sm2n: generally, you can approximate any pure functional idiom to some extent in cl, but it will always fall short somewhere
2020-10-05T01:31:34Z JohnTalent: sm2n: Interesting. Thanks. I know a little haskell, but appreciate lisp's readability over Haskell.
2020-10-05T01:31:35Z Bike: as far as i know no lisp implementation does deforestation optimizations.
2020-10-05T01:31:57Z sm2n: if you want a lisp that makes heavy use of immutable data structures, I would recommend racket
2020-10-05T01:32:08Z JohnTalent: sm2n: neat, didn't know.
2020-10-05T01:32:22Z sm2n: there is also clojure but I can't recommend that in good conscience
2020-10-05T01:32:25Z JohnTalent: Doesn't sound like it's pure though.
2020-10-05T01:32:44Z sm2n: racket is a family of languages
2020-10-05T01:32:54Z moon-child: what's wrong with clojure?
2020-10-05T01:32:55Z bhartrihari: JohnTalent: Owl Lisp is pure, I think. But it's not as popular.
2020-10-05T01:33:05Z JohnTalent: yeah, clojure is just tapes and glue *trying* as much as possible to be pure.
2020-10-05T01:33:14Z JohnTalent: bhartrihari: !! :)
2020-10-05T01:33:43Z sm2n: moon-child, I haven't used it myself so I can't recommend it, and afaik it still gives you java stack traces
2020-10-05T01:33:53Z sm2n: I don't want to start a language war however
2020-10-05T01:34:04Z moon-child: sm2n: I don't actually know clojure; I was just curious
2020-10-05T01:34:33Z sm2n: anyway, it sounds like cl is not what you want JohnTalent, so I would suggest looking elsewhere
2020-10-05T01:34:52Z no-defun-allowed: (Also, there aren't many types in Clojure, so that'd be no good anyway.)
2020-10-05T01:35:06Z bhartrihari: sm2n: So does one need to understand java to be able to debug clojure code?
2020-10-05T01:35:09Z sm2n: I can't fathom why you'd have such requirements though
2020-10-05T01:35:38Z sm2n: that is my understanding, bhartrihari, but I have never used it personally
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2020-10-05T01:43:34Z bhartrihari: Is there any other pure lisp other than Owl Lisp?
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2020-10-05T01:44:36Z no-defun-allowed: Well, the original LISP (note upcased) was pure. But why?
2020-10-05T01:45:09Z sm2n: shen, I guess
2020-10-05T01:45:49Z aeth: SBCL (a CL implementation) has some degree of static typing through type declarations
2020-10-05T01:47:22Z aeth: You can technically get immutability and types with DEFSTRUCT... :read-only slots with a certain specified :type... Of course, it would be a non-optimized immutability, unlike, say, Haskell
2020-10-05T01:48:09Z no-defun-allowed: But why do you need a pure language? It's quite to draw up an "immutable" subset of Common Lisp.
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2020-10-05T01:50:37Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: you either have optimized immutability (some CL libraries) or you have compiler-enforced immutability (e.g. the hypothetical struct that I just described), but you can't have both unless the language supports it.
2020-10-05T01:51:16Z aeth: I doubt it's a common enough idiom for implementations to bother optimizing... i.e. getting read only data structures via structs with all slots as read-only
2020-10-05T01:51:41Z aeth: This is absolutely what structs are for, though. Letting implementations be able to optimize it.
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2020-10-05T03:13:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-05T03:54:13Z bhartrihari: Good morning beach, and everyone else!
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2020-10-05T04:28:58Z cjv: Goodnight ;)
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2020-10-05T04:38:26Z beach: cjv: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-10-05T04:38:40Z cjv: yeah I joined a few days ago
2020-10-05T04:38:52Z beach: Great!  Welcome!  What brings you to #lisp?
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2020-10-05T04:39:40Z cjv: oh just been writing a bunch of scheme lately
2020-10-05T04:40:02Z cjv: wanted to keep an eye on the common lisp folks too :-P
2020-10-05T04:40:03Z beach: Oh!  Sorry to inform you that this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2020-10-05T04:40:09Z beach: Ah, OK. :)
2020-10-05T04:40:09Z cjv: I'm aware
2020-10-05T04:45:03Z beach: Are you using a functional-programming style?  I take it, that's on the rise now.  Some people even say that object-oriented programming is losing popularity.  I suspect it must be because of the constraints imposed by the confusion between data representation and encapsulation.
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2020-10-05T04:47:42Z cjv: I personally don't write in a fully functional style
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2020-10-05T04:47:50Z beach: I see.
2020-10-05T04:48:22Z cjv: I was benchmarking SBCL and chez scheme recently on some toy tasks and was surprised to find they are almost exactly the same speed
2020-10-05T04:48:43Z beach: What kind of "tasks"?  Numeric?
2020-10-05T04:49:08Z beach: Since what we do with CLOS is not "object-oriented" in the sense that Alan Kay meant it, and it is not "object-oriented" in the sense that Java or C++ do it, maybe we should call it something else, perhaps "protocol-oriented".
2020-10-05T04:49:37Z cjv: yeah, CLOS is very different from everything else out there
2020-10-05T04:49:56Z cjv: I was just doing some of the stuff from: https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
2020-10-05T04:50:32Z beach: I see.
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2020-10-05T04:51:33Z beach: For SBCL, you need to think about the OPTIMIZE settings.  They could greatly influence the result, both in terms of performance and in terms of semantics.
2020-10-05T04:52:44Z beach: I guess that's true for other implementations as well, but I have less experience with those.
2020-10-05T04:52:45Z cjv: Yes, I should definitely profile it and figure out what is going on.
2020-10-05T04:53:52Z beach: For numerical code, you may want to read the paper(s) by Didier Verna.  He managed to get the same performance out of SBCL for some problems, that he got out of GCC.
2020-10-05T04:54:13Z cjv: I'll take a look at that
2020-10-05T04:54:43Z cjv: I'm thinking of switching my code over to CL just because the library situation is so much better :)
2020-10-05T04:55:16Z cjv: Didier's website is so cool!
2020-10-05T04:55:20Z beach: I see.  CLOS is not something you are thinking of making good use of?
2020-10-05T04:55:36Z cjv: I would start using it if I switched.
2020-10-05T04:55:44Z beach: OK.
2020-10-05T04:55:45Z cjv: Right now, I'm just using records.
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2020-10-05T04:58:10Z no-defun-allowed: (I would call Smalltalk, Self, Erlang et al message passing-oriented, Java and C++ vtable-oriented, and CLOS generic function-oriented.)
2020-10-05T04:58:53Z beach: Hmm.  OK.
2020-10-05T04:59:25Z no-defun-allowed: I didn't think about it very long, but that's roughly how each group is polymorphic.
2020-10-05T04:59:43Z beach: Sounds right.
2020-10-05T04:59:49Z cjv: Common Lisp is more multiple dispatch no?
2020-10-05T04:59:56Z beach: Indeed.
2020-10-05T05:00:02Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, generic functions allow for multiple dispatch and method combination.
2020-10-05T05:00:31Z beach: The "vtable" thing captures the class orientation vs the prototype orientation, but the name suggests implementation too much.
2020-10-05T05:00:40Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
2020-10-05T05:03:20Z beach: In fact, I think C++ could benefit from not using tables at all, but instead my fast-dispatch technique.  Especially when there is "diamond" inheritance, which complicates vtables as I recall.
2020-10-05T05:03:51Z beach: I seem to remember that a two-level vtable solves that problem, but that's even more memory access involved.
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2020-10-05T05:05:40Z no-defun-allowed: cjv: What I usually do is start by using standard classes and accessors where I'd use "records", then if and only if that representation is too slow, then I use structure classes or some specialised representation.
2020-10-05T05:07:02Z moon-child: is it poor form to use ` and , instead of list?
2020-10-05T05:07:14Z moon-child: (that is, `(,x ,y ,z) instead of (list x y z))
2020-10-05T05:07:26Z no-defun-allowed: The former lets you update classes while you're still testing things out, and accessors are also generic functions. (Note that structure classes, as well as any other class, can be dispatched on.)
2020-10-05T05:08:53Z beach: moon-child: Not really, no.
2020-10-05T05:08:55Z no-defun-allowed: It really depends, but I usually only use quasiquotation when constructing code. The purpose is to suggest what the list structure produced "looks like", so if it looks clearer to you, then you should use it.
2020-10-05T05:09:19Z cjv: no-defun-allowed That's good advice, thank you.
2020-10-05T05:11:24Z no-defun-allowed: The one advantage defstruct has over defclass is that it's less typing (though it picks accessor names that you may not like), so it may also be useful to define a macro for some shorthand DEFCLASS if you are picking slot initargs that the computer could pick for you.
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2020-10-05T05:18:58Z White_Flame: defstruct has performance and possibly footprint advantages, too
2020-10-05T05:19:15Z White_Flame: but semantically, right
2020-10-05T05:20:05Z no-defun-allowed: That is true; I should say "the one non-situational advantage", but if you're a fast typer and like repeating yourself, defclass/defstruct syntax might not be a problem.
2020-10-05T05:20:38Z beach: I wonder how much heisig's work on sealing and fast generic functions can compensate for that advantage.
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2020-10-05T05:22:01Z White_Flame: if you can't inline it, not really
2020-10-05T05:22:13Z beach: I think his work makes it possible.
2020-10-05T05:22:20Z White_Flame: oh right, sealing.  That could
2020-10-05T05:22:43Z no-defun-allowed: Probably quite a bit; but accessing the slot of a standard-instance requires one more memory access than a structure, no?
2020-10-05T05:23:05Z beach: Usually, yes.  But maybe not with sealing?
2020-10-05T05:24:10Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, would he seal a class by inserting the slot vector inline in its instances, instead of using a reference to the slot vector?
2020-10-05T05:24:47Z beach: I don't know the details, but I am not excluding that possibility either.
2020-10-05T05:25:34Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, I didn't think that sealing could apply there before.
2020-10-05T05:26:01Z beach: It is still early in the morning for me, so I may not be able to think it through (yet).
2020-10-05T05:26:25Z beach: Not that I would take advantage of such a possibility anyway. :)
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2020-10-05T05:26:54Z White_Flame: but still, what we get with defstruct slot access is an inline mov dest, [src+slotoffset]
2020-10-05T05:26:55Z no-defun-allowed: Don't worry about it then.
2020-10-05T05:27:36Z beach: White_Flame: You would need to check the type as well, no?
2020-10-05T05:27:47Z White_Flame: if the type is declared/known/optimized
2020-10-05T05:28:19Z White_Flame: when I'm reading disassemblies, it's nearly always in a fixed-type block of code
2020-10-05T05:28:30Z beach: I see.
2020-10-05T05:31:45Z beach: Oh, and then we need to think about the interaction with the garbage collector.  I think we have a tendency to forget that.
2020-10-05T05:32:36Z White_Flame: read/write barriers?
2020-10-05T05:32:54Z White_Flame: those should be fixed overhead no matter the purpose/style of the read/wrote
2020-10-05T05:32:57Z White_Flame: *write
2020-10-05T05:33:03Z beach: That's not what I was thinking about right then, but sure.
2020-10-05T05:33:17Z beach: Yeah, sure.
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2020-10-05T05:34:28Z beach: Right then I was thinking of the cost of copying, but I guess copying or not might be an orthogonal decision as well.
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2020-10-05T06:37:54Z phoe: morning
2020-10-05T06:39:23Z easye: hey ho, Mr. phoe
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2020-10-05T06:42:36Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe.
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2020-10-05T12:17:48Z madnificent: Very glad I finally got a hold of a printed copy of PCL.  It's much nicer in printed form than in the online form I read ages ago.  Would love to get hold of Closer-MOP too.  If anyone has pointers to that (preferably in hardcover) I'm all ears.
2020-10-05T12:18:10Z madnificent: I try not to by from huge internet giants if possible.
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2020-10-05T12:19:06Z jackdaniel: is there a book titled closer-mop?
2020-10-05T12:19:49Z jackdaniel: or did you mean "the art of the metaobject protocol"?
2020-10-05T12:19:57Z madnificent: The art of the metaobject protocol.  Sorry
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2020-10-05T12:20:18Z madnificent: Yeah! sorry.  Was too excited about PCL I'm afraid ^_^
2020-10-05T12:21:25Z jackdaniel: mitpress has buying options listed here: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/art-metaobject-protocol
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2020-10-05T12:23:08Z madnificent: Did not try amazon, but it's out of order elsewhere
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2020-10-05T12:25:10Z madnificent: I can buy it somewhat locally at https://www.standaardboekhandel.be/p/the-art-of-the-metaobject-protocol-9780262610742 (high price for presumably a soft-cover), so perhaps I should just bite that bullet.
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2020-10-05T13:11:40Z saganman: Hello. Morning Everyone
2020-10-05T13:11:45Z jackdaniel: hey
2020-10-05T13:11:56Z saganman: I'm living in emacs now.
2020-10-05T13:12:03Z jackdaniel: my condolences
2020-10-05T13:12:24Z saganman: lol, it is not bad
2020-10-05T13:12:39Z saganman: slime on left and irc on right
2020-10-05T13:12:45Z jackdaniel: sweet lemon, sour grapes
2020-10-05T13:13:35Z jackdaniel: s/lemon/lemons/
2020-10-05T13:14:00Z saganman: the book I'm reading says programmers prefer car, cadr over first, rest, why is that so?
2020-10-05T13:14:23Z jackdaniel: it is probably the book's author preference "imposed" on programmers
2020-10-05T13:14:32Z Xach: saganman: it is not so
2020-10-05T13:14:39Z phoe: which book is that
2020-10-05T13:14:42Z jackdaniel: semantically they have quite different meaning
2020-10-05T13:14:42Z Xach: saganman: what book is it?
2020-10-05T13:14:56Z jackdaniel: car cadr etc are cons accessors, first rest etc are list accessors
2020-10-05T13:15:16Z saganman: ah sorry, I misread
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2020-10-05T13:15:40Z saganman: sorry Xach, nevermind
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2020-10-05T13:16:40Z Xach: saganman: i remain interested in the book's title and author, even if it was a misread
2020-10-05T13:17:09Z saganman: Xach: It is Lisp by Horn and Winston
2020-10-05T13:18:55Z phoe: oh gods that's an ancient one
2020-10-05T13:19:37Z saganman: Oh
2020-10-05T13:19:52Z phoe: I haven't seen the third edition
2020-10-05T13:20:10Z saganman: I have the third edition.
2020-10-05T13:21:55Z phoe: I must have missed it, too
2020-10-05T13:22:02Z phoe: I didn't notice the third edition until now
2020-10-05T13:22:08Z saganman: I'm revising the basics, it has been years since I have written any code.
2020-10-05T13:22:39Z madnificent: I read about it too when I was learning lisp.  The reasoning I read at the time stated that it's easier to combine with cadr caadr cddr etc.  I guess there are cases where you'd prefer car and cadr, but probably not when treating a cons cell as part of a list.
2020-10-05T13:22:43Z saganman: phoe: back then I read this was the best lisp book
2020-10-05T13:23:42Z madnificent: saganman: I'd highly advise Practical Common Lisp if you want something hands-on and still going at a good pace.
2020-10-05T13:23:45Z saganman: madnificent: here the book says cad, cdr are still allowed because of their composite use
2020-10-05T13:24:07Z saganman: madnificent: thanks, I'll get that
2020-10-05T13:25:07Z Xach: the third edition has some good stuff
2020-10-05T13:25:22Z Xach: it covers clos nicely iirc
2020-10-05T13:25:25Z Xach: (w&h that is)
2020-10-05T13:25:36Z Xach: i also like horn's full name, "berthold klaus paul horn"
2020-10-05T13:26:31Z saganman: lol, that is his name
2020-10-05T13:28:09Z saganman: what's the command to clear slime screen?
2020-10-05T13:28:24Z phoe: C-c M-o on my machine
2020-10-05T13:28:36Z saganman: same
2020-10-05T13:28:46Z saganman: thanks, I'll make note
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2020-10-05T13:43:47Z dlowe: When I was learning, I tried On Lisp by pg, Lisp by Horn and Winston, and CLtL2, and only the last did anything for me.
2020-10-05T13:46:06Z jackdaniel: my first book (after few chapters of PCL which I have read later), was ANSI Common Lisp (by pg), and I find it being a great resource
2020-10-05T13:46:30Z jackdaniel: especially thanks to the excercises after each chapter which kind of force you to understand some concepts
2020-10-05T13:47:21Z dlowe: gigamonkey was writing PCL when I was learning it
2020-10-05T13:47:31Z dlowe: otherwise I definitely would have used that
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2020-10-05T13:57:10Z mseddon: PCL is a pretty good book. Still, I think a little long in the tooth now, it'd be nice for a treatment that also covered ASDF 3 and quicklisp.
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2020-10-05T14:05:45Z dlowe: Not sure how much ecosystem stuff should go into a book.
2020-10-05T14:06:24Z jackdaniel: depends on a book of course. some ended in pcl: most notably slime and emacs configuration basis
2020-10-05T14:06:32Z jackdaniel: s/basis/basics/
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2020-10-05T14:27:20Z parisienne: sorry I think I spammed the crap out of the channel :( my stupid bouncer freaked out because I haven't been in IRC for a month or so. no clue what happend ...
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2020-10-05T14:37:10Z Bike: there are no messages logged from your nick today, so if you mean something today i guess you probably didn't spam
2020-10-05T14:39:02Z parisienne: no clue ... all I know is half the channels in my list kicked me for flooding. I guess my bouncer was trying to reconnect ...
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2020-10-05T14:41:31Z contrapunctus: mseddon: "PCL is a pretty good book. Still, I think a little long in the tooth now, it'd be nice for a treatment that also covered ASDF 3 and quicklisp." As a newcomer trying to get into the CL ecosystem - amen!
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2020-10-05T14:44:23Z beach: parisienne: I didn't see any spam from you.
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2020-10-05T14:46:29Z parisienne: then its all good. said sorry in #clojure and here. don't care about the #nginx dudes :D
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2020-10-05T14:48:03Z saganman: car and cdr are actually from IBM 704 instruction set, woah
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2020-10-05T14:48:48Z easye 
2020-10-05T14:48:56Z easye 's other car is a cdr...
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2020-10-05T14:53:52Z parisienne: Thank god this is not in the documentation: 'CAR and CDR stand for "Contents of the Address Register" and "Contents of the Decrement Register"'
2020-10-05T14:55:07Z saganman: it is a good practice to declare variables first and then assign right?
2020-10-05T14:55:10Z easye: parisienne: if you don't know that piece of information, it makes it harder to remember what the functions bound to the symbols actually do.
2020-10-05T14:56:05Z easye: saganman: I try not to have anything other than LET (and LET*) forms.
2020-10-05T14:57:31Z saganman: easye: no defvar, setq?
2020-10-05T14:57:41Z saganman: setf*
2020-10-05T14:57:41Z easye: well, actually LET/LET* bindings and the lambda lists to the functions.
2020-10-05T14:58:23Z easye: saganman: definitely not SETQ/SETF, but use DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER when you absolutely need to.
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2020-10-05T14:59:12Z saganman: easye: I heard this years ago when learning lisp, why no setq/setf?
2020-10-05T15:00:26Z easye: Avoiding SETF/SETQ makes ones code more "functional", where you have expcitly nested lexical structure.
2020-10-05T15:00:33Z parisienne: easye I think you meant saganman
2020-10-05T15:01:04Z easye: But this is more a piece of guidance to show how you often don't need SETF as much as you think you do, as a hard and fast rule.
2020-10-05T15:01:20Z easye: parisienne: pardon.  Yes, I did..
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2020-10-05T15:03:18Z schweers: Maybe some rules need a disclaimer: this is meant for newcomers.  Once you’ve graduated, there isn’t anything wrong with setf in general.  On the contrary, I find the concept of places is something I miss in every other language.
2020-10-05T15:03:25Z parisienne: because I couldn't imagine how it would be useful information to tell somebody get the contents of the address register ;)
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2020-10-05T15:04:28Z easye: parisienne: CAR/CDR are one of the few (only?) places where implementation details leaked into the standard.
2020-10-05T15:05:50Z easye: I think it would have broken too much code to not have it as part of ANSI.  Still I try to use FIRST, SECOND, REST, and so forth when they are appropiate.
2020-10-05T15:06:19Z easye: But then I guess we wouldn't such things as CADDDR.
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2020-10-05T15:06:57Z saganman`: I got dc
2020-10-05T15:07:01Z schweers: As jackdaniel said: they convey different intents to the reader.
2020-10-05T15:07:15Z parisienne: get the contents of the address decrement decrement decrement register? ;)
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2020-10-05T15:07:36Z parisienne: from now on that is what I am going to use!
2020-10-05T15:07:47Z saganman: test
2020-10-05T15:07:56Z parisienne: test passed
2020-10-05T15:07:57Z easye: We can hear ya saganman
2020-10-05T15:08:33Z saganman: nice
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2020-10-05T15:10:55Z beach: saganman: I think they failed to tell you that a top-level SETF/SETQ of a variable without a preceding DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER is undefined behavior.  But DEFVAR and DEFPARAMETER are not "declarations"; they "define" or even "create" the variable.
2020-10-05T15:11:15Z beach: saganman: So it is not only good style, it is a requirement for conforming code.
2020-10-05T15:13:15Z beach: parisienne: Technically, it is "Contents of the Address part of Register" and "Contents of Decrement part of register".  I.e. two parts of one and the same register, rather than two different registers.
2020-10-05T15:13:26Z easye: beach is of course right.  Certain implementations (sbcl) won't allow toplevel SETF without DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER to even compile.
2020-10-05T15:13:55Z mfiano-: Not SBCL.
2020-10-05T15:14:04Z mfiano-: It will be a warning. But still UB
2020-10-05T15:14:36Z easye: mfiano-: Corrected.
2020-10-05T15:15:57Z saganman: yes beach, I observed that with all the warnings
2020-10-05T15:16:22Z beach: OK, good.  Now you just have to use the right terminology. :)
2020-10-05T15:16:47Z saganman: thanks for the tip beach
2020-10-05T15:16:53Z beach: Pleasure.
2020-10-05T15:19:54Z parisienne: easye: damn it, now I actually want to go and figure out how the implementation in the 1950 looked like ...
2020-10-05T15:21:29Z dbotton_: Is there a function that combines let and flet in to one
2020-10-05T15:21:41Z beach: No.
2020-10-05T15:21:46Z beach: And those are not functions.
2020-10-05T15:21:59Z dbotton_: what is the propern name?
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2020-10-05T15:22:10Z dbotton_: proper
2020-10-05T15:22:15Z jackdaniel: operators
2020-10-05T15:22:27Z jackdaniel: operator may be a function, a macro or a special operator
2020-10-05T15:22:32Z beach: They happen to be special operators.  But you can use "operator" for either a function, a macro, or a special operator.
2020-10-05T15:22:33Z jackdaniel: flet and let are special operators
2020-10-05T15:22:38Z jackdaniel: heh
2020-10-05T15:22:38Z beach: heh.
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2020-10-05T15:22:53Z dbotton_: thanks
2020-10-05T15:23:24Z beach: dbotton_: I believe there is some "bind" macro, perhaps in Alexandria.
2020-10-05T15:23:40Z schweers: btw, there is an operator (a macro, to be precice) which does combine them, called bind.
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2020-10-05T15:23:47Z schweers: https://common-lisp.net/project/metabang-bind/user-guide.html
2020-10-05T15:24:06Z schweers: But it’s not part of the standard
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2020-10-05T15:24:33Z jackdaniel likes the idea of a bind macro, but found the source code quite off-putting
2020-10-05T15:25:03Z schweers: I must admit that I did not read it.  I only wrote a few simple extensions and use it.
2020-10-05T15:25:22Z jackdaniel: I don't remember details
2020-10-05T15:25:47Z schweers: It has lots of whitespace at the end of lines ...
2020-10-05T15:25:48Z beach: dbotton_: What characterizes a "function" is that all the arguments are evaluated before the function is applied.
2020-10-05T15:26:00Z dbotton_: good to know
2020-10-05T15:27:40Z dbotton_: So the only standard way for sandwich the let's between flets if want to store results of a local operator between definitions or use results as part of next definition
2020-10-05T15:27:51Z contrapunctus: schweers: oh, bind sounds amazing 🤯
2020-10-05T15:28:14Z schweers: I use it to get rid of a lot of indentation
2020-10-05T15:28:58Z schweers: Also I strongly object to using the name multiple-value-bind.  It’s just too long.
2020-10-05T15:29:00Z jackdaniel: dbotton_: operator labels creats function bindings which are available instantly (i.e for self-recurrence)
2020-10-05T15:29:34Z jackdaniel: (labels ((foo (a) (1+ a)) (bar () (foo 42)) (bar))
2020-10-05T15:29:58Z mfiano-: There is a macro, mvlet (also mvlet*) that allows multiple-value-bind to have LET/LET* syntax, and thus, you can intermix LET bindings in it, since 1 value is the same as 1+
2020-10-05T15:30:18Z mfiano-: I steer away from bind-like macros, there are enough of them, and it really hurts code clarity
2020-10-05T15:31:05Z jackdaniel: I like the fact that multiple-values-bind is so verbose, because it is easy to spot places, which are not a subject of some compiler optimizations
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2020-10-05T15:31:33Z jackdaniel: but other than that it is awful indeed :)
2020-10-05T15:31:44Z schweers: jackdaniel: how so?  Could you elaborate on what you mean?
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2020-10-05T15:32:59Z jackdaniel: for instance (in case of ecl), if you expect only one return value, you may simply use a construct: foo = bar(); (in transpiled code)
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2020-10-05T15:33:39Z jackdaniel: when you bind multiple values, you need to: check how many values were returned and assign them to each variable
2020-10-05T15:33:59Z jackdaniel: so you access an array allocated on a heap instead of simply taking value from the register
2020-10-05T15:34:19Z mfiano-: (multiple-value-bind (a b) (floor 42.2) (multiple-value-bind (c d) (floor 42.6) (let ((e 42)) ...))) => (mvlet ((a b 42.2) (c d 42.6) e 42) ...)
2020-10-05T15:34:29Z schweers: So returning multiple values is more expensive?  Or receiving them?
2020-10-05T15:34:34Z jackdaniel: (this may be mitigated if you can inline the code or something, but when you don't know about the called function, then you can't)
2020-10-05T15:34:44Z jackdaniel: in case of ecl - receiving them
2020-10-05T15:35:11Z jackdaniel: it is a minute cost, but if you are optimizing to get to C speed (i.e in a numerical code), then it is important
2020-10-05T15:35:30Z schweers: Does the caller indicate to the callee how many values are expected?
2020-10-05T15:35:38Z jackdaniel: another interesting case is multiple-value-prog1 which requires "saving" values on the stack
2020-10-05T15:35:59Z jackdaniel: (multiple-value-bind (a b c) (values 1) …) ; <- clearly not
2020-10-05T15:36:37Z schweers: I mean the compiled code.  I know that I as a lisp programmer do not have to do so
2020-10-05T15:36:38Z jackdaniel: but that's in the microoptimization realm which is not important in almost all cases
2020-10-05T15:37:04Z schweers: I’m wondering how the callee knows whether to allocate and fill in the extra heap array
2020-10-05T15:37:30Z jackdaniel: allocation is not necessary, because array is pre-allocated in the environment
2020-10-05T15:37:48Z jackdaniel: and it always fills as many values as it returns (and sets number of return values to n)
2020-10-05T15:37:50Z schweers: essentially by the caller?
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2020-10-05T15:38:00Z jackdaniel: no, when a thread is started
2020-10-05T15:38:07Z schweers: Oh, I see!
2020-10-05T15:38:09Z jackdaniel: each thread has an array which holds returned values
2020-10-05T15:38:29Z jackdaniel: (this is implementation detail which differs probably among implementations; I'm only saying what's going on in ecl runtime)
2020-10-05T15:38:46Z schweers: I know, but I find it interesting
2020-10-05T15:38:52Z schweers: Thanks for explaining this.
2020-10-05T15:39:13Z jackdaniel: sure, if I embarassed myself by saying something incorrect please forget about it ;-)
2020-10-05T15:39:23Z jackdaniel gets back to code
2020-10-05T15:39:36Z schweers: I’ll try :)
2020-10-05T15:40:30Z jackdaniel: (m-v-b is still better and much faster than consing multiple values and destructuring them, so from the language perspective it is a win)
2020-10-05T15:40:50Z jackdaniel: compared to languages with functions which can't return multiple values
2020-10-05T15:42:25Z schweers: Doesn’t python do destructuring on a list or tuple?
2020-10-05T15:42:38Z schweers: Nevermind, we should talk about lisp, not python
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2020-10-05T15:56:45Z dlowe: it's fine in this case - destructuring involves the construction of an object to destructure, which isn't nearly as efficient
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2020-10-05T15:56:54Z dlowe: I mean, lisp has destructuring too
2020-10-05T15:57:01Z zacts: hello
2020-10-05T15:57:36Z dlowe: also, CL has the idea of the primary return value, in case you want to ignore the other return values
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2020-10-05T15:57:50Z dlowe: whereas in the destructuring approach, you have to explicitly ignore non-matching data
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2020-10-05T16:08:17Z dbotton_: Is there a way for me to call an outer scope verion of an operate my flet or labels has shaddowed?
2020-10-05T16:09:05Z schweers: Why would you shadow it, if you need it?
2020-10-05T16:09:20Z schweers: You can just rename your inner function.
2020-10-05T16:09:39Z dbotton_: probably not smart, but the question is there is a way, a notation that would do it
2020-10-05T16:09:44Z jackdaniel: (funcall 'foo) looks for the function foo in the global environment, ignoring all intervening definitions
2020-10-05T16:09:50Z schweers: Or do you mean from within the function you’re defining via flet?
2020-10-05T16:09:50Z schweers:  
2020-10-05T16:10:25Z dbotton_: so that gets me global or could use the package
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2020-10-05T16:10:58Z Bike: there's no way to get at an outer binding that isn't global, if that's what you're asking.
2020-10-05T16:11:01Z schweers: The package has nothing to do with global or local
2020-10-05T16:11:01Z Bike: the binding is shadowed.
2020-10-05T16:11:04Z dbotton_: I was curious if there was some way to sort of access the previous scopes for operators or maybe even vars
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2020-10-05T16:11:08Z Bike: No.
2020-10-05T16:11:26Z Bike: the bindings are shadowed.
2020-10-05T16:11:34Z jackdaniel: you may create a closure which captures the outer binding
2020-10-05T16:11:35Z dbotton_: I could go cl-user:foo no?
2020-10-05T16:11:42Z Bike: packages are unrelated.
2020-10-05T16:11:50Z Bike: you can get at a GLOBAL binding, like how jackdaniel said for example
2020-10-05T16:11:58Z Bike: but you can't get at a lexical binding that has been shadowed.
2020-10-05T16:12:04Z jackdaniel: that's a different thing, packages allow you to create /different/ symbols of the same name
2020-10-05T16:12:27Z dbotton_: sorry I was saying can access the global binding that way
2020-10-05T16:12:29Z jackdaniel: it is only that if you do not add package prefix, then the default package is taken (stored in a variable *package*)
2020-10-05T16:12:31Z shka_: dbotton_: within flet you can call the global with name
2020-10-05T16:12:45Z shka_: dbotton_: labels are recursive
2020-10-05T16:12:54Z jackdaniel: shka_: we have estabilished that earlier
2020-10-05T16:12:55Z Bike: you can get at global variable bindings with symbol-value, and function bindings with fdefinition plus several operators that do fdefinition implicitly.
2020-10-05T16:13:02Z shka_: jackdaniel: sorry, i missed it
2020-10-05T16:13:03Z dbotton_: so if I used the package name in flet still get the local binding?
2020-10-05T16:13:14Z Bike: it has nothing to do with the package name.
2020-10-05T16:13:40Z Bike: the package name is a property of the symbol. using or not using the package name does not impact what binding of the same symbol you get.
2020-10-05T16:14:38Z dbotton_: I see just tried it
2020-10-05T16:14:45Z jackdaniel: a silly way of accessing outer function would be i.e (flet ((foo () 42)) (let ((var-foo #'foo)) (flet ((foo () 15)) (funcall var-foo))))
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2020-10-05T16:15:15Z dbotton_: wow that was a good lesson
2020-10-05T16:15:29Z dbotton_: that would have been a bug hunt someday
2020-10-05T16:15:46Z shka_: uhm, i want to say that although jackdaniel calls this silly, it is situational very useful
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2020-10-05T16:16:05Z dbotton_: his answer also answered my other question
2020-10-05T16:16:08Z dbotton_: from before
2020-10-05T16:16:29Z dbotton_: so packages are just name games
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2020-10-05T16:16:36Z dbotton_: not like ada packages
2020-10-05T16:16:38Z dbotton_: good to know
2020-10-05T16:17:05Z Alfr: I think phoe had a nice related example in #lispcafe in the last week.
2020-10-05T16:17:14Z Bike: packages are namespaces and that's it. i don't know if ada packages also include modularity or whatever.
2020-10-05T16:19:34Z dbotton_: (funcall 'foo) vs (funcall #'foo) also interesting
2020-10-05T16:19:52Z dbotton_: so what does the first call the global
2020-10-05T16:20:00Z dbotton_: and the second the local functio
2020-10-05T16:20:12Z Bike: (funcall 'foo) is basically shorthand for (funcall (fdefinition 'foo))
2020-10-05T16:20:19Z Bike: and fdefinition gets the global definition.
2020-10-05T16:21:30Z jackdaniel: dbotton_: if you are interested in some particular operator, just type it in l1sp.org (the second character is a digit "1")
2020-10-05T16:21:33Z phoe: the value returned by the special operator FUNCTION depends on the lexical context in which that operator appears
2020-10-05T16:21:47Z jackdaniel: it will provide you a few links - to the standard, if applicable to pcl, or to another resource
2020-10-05T16:21:52Z phoe: the value returned by the function FDEFINITION does not
2020-10-05T16:21:55Z dbotton_: thanks
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2020-10-05T16:22:49Z jackdaniel: for instance http://l1sp.org/search?q=dolist
2020-10-05T16:23:17Z dbotton_: that is fantastic resource
2020-10-05T16:24:12Z jackdaniel: thank Xach for creating and maintaining it
2020-10-05T16:24:35Z dbotton_: Thank you Xach!
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2020-10-05T18:00:27Z zacts: is there a UNIX command line pretty printer for common lisp?
2020-10-05T18:00:43Z zacts: or I wonder if I can use emacs on the command line to do this?
2020-10-05T18:00:52Z zacts: I'm using vim, that's why I ask.
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2020-10-05T18:04:14Z _death: you can use emacs in batch mode
2020-10-05T18:04:30Z zacts: ok, I'll look into this. thanks.
2020-10-05T18:05:04Z zacts: I might just switch to emacs for lisp anyway.
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2020-10-05T18:06:06Z beach: Bike: SYMBOL-VALUE doesn't return the "global" value of the variable.
2020-10-05T18:06:20Z Bike: oh, yeah, i guess.
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2020-10-05T18:14:00Z jasom: zacts: https://github.com/ds26gte/scmindent is not as good as emacs in batch mode.  I used it prior to switching to emacs + evil-mode
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2020-10-05T18:18:06Z dbotton_: Does case use EQ or EQL for comparisson I have seen both said in different books and online docs
2020-10-05T18:19:03Z dbotton_: the land of list book says EQ and the hyperspec sample would have to be EQL and some other online stuff says EQL
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2020-10-05T18:19:38Z White_Flame: land of lisp is pretty loosey goosey
2020-10-05T18:19:54Z White_Flame: when using symbols, EQL is equivalent to EQ comparisons
2020-10-05T18:20:07Z White_Flame: but EQL is the default comparator for most things in CL
2020-10-05T18:20:07Z dbotton_: its my bathroom read
2020-10-05T18:20:33Z dbotton_: yes but eql means i can use numbers for case
2020-10-05T18:20:38Z White_Flame: yep
2020-10-05T18:20:49Z dbotton_: he says no
2020-10-05T18:20:51Z dbotton_: and is eq
2020-10-05T18:20:56Z White_Flame: huh?
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2020-10-05T18:21:01Z White_Flame doesn't have his copy at hand
2020-10-05T18:21:01Z dbotton_: land of lisp
2020-10-05T18:21:09Z dbotton_: in his book
2020-10-05T18:21:16Z dbotton_: and I am not on toilet at moment so dont have
2020-10-05T18:21:27Z contrapunctus: lol
2020-10-05T18:21:50Z dbotton_: but 100% he said eq and no nums
2020-10-05T18:21:53Z White_Flame: "These macros allow the conditional execution of a body of forms in a clause that is selected by matching the test-key on the basis of its identity. "
2020-10-05T18:21:55Z White_Flame: from CLHS
2020-10-05T18:22:14Z White_Flame: it doesn't explicitly say EQ or EQL there, but that certainly smells like EQ
2020-10-05T18:22:34Z dbotton_: that is why question
2020-10-05T18:23:06Z decentyousername: Good evening. What are the differences between declare, proclaim and declaim? The difference between declare and proclaim seems to be that declare is local and proclaim global. But I couldn't really figure out what declaim is useful for, after reading the hyperspec entry for all three.
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2020-10-05T18:23:11Z White_Flame: yeah, surprising to me as well.  I haven't hit anything there
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2020-10-05T18:23:33Z decentyousername: also, hi.
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2020-10-05T18:25:19Z White_Flame: decentyousername: proclaim is a function, and only takes effect when it's evaluated
2020-10-05T18:25:42Z White_Flame: declaim is a macro, and so it affects things at compile-time which is usually the desired intent
2020-10-05T18:26:55Z White_Flame: you should default to using DECLAIM at the toplevel
2020-10-05T18:27:22Z White_Flame: and PROCLAIM for runtime global declarations (which are going to be exceedingly rare)
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2020-10-05T18:29:58Z decentyousername: Ok, so I use the proclaim function make runtime proclamations (global declarations), declaim for assisting the compiler, and declare for local stuff af the beginning of a block. Is that correct?
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2020-10-05T18:30:20Z White_Flame: you're not going to be doing "runtime global declarations"
2020-10-05T18:30:25Z Bike: declaim also does global declarationis. it's basically proclaim but it additionally runs at top level compile time.
2020-10-05T18:30:36Z White_Flame: you're generally going to be doing static compile-time declarations as your intent, which is DECLAIM
2020-10-05T18:31:18Z White_Flame: (and yeah, compile-time vs run-time gets a little muddled in vernacular understanding in Lisp, as it's all technically runtime in the outside world's usage)
2020-10-05T18:31:37Z decentyousername: Alright, thanks for the input. I'll reread the spec pages now.
2020-10-05T18:32:04Z White_Flame: the spec pages must be interpreted for some of these issues ;)
2020-10-05T18:32:30Z decentyousername: not compiled? huehuehue
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2020-10-05T18:33:13Z White_Flame: compiling the interpretations of CLHS is a required step in lisp transcendence
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2020-10-05T18:34:50Z decentyousername: I might share the results of my compilation of interpretations of the CLHS in the distant future, when everone has already forgotten that I wrote the sentence you're currently reading.
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2020-10-05T20:15:00Z Harag: here is a bit of a weird question... some time in the last year I happend upon a video of a famed lisper/prof that was selling the next best thing in programming where more than one thing/function could answer a question/give a result ... he used circuit diagrams as examples in his talk
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2020-10-05T20:16:29Z _death: not sure, but maybe Sussman and Art of the Propagator
2020-10-05T20:16:43Z Harag: yes thats it
2020-10-05T20:16:51Z Harag: thanx
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2020-10-05T20:24:41Z decentyousername: LOL, _death is our intelligent search engine.
2020-10-05T20:24:49Z decentyousername: a million times better than Google.
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2020-10-05T20:25:55Z alanz_ is now known as alanz
2020-10-05T20:25:55Z aeth: so what you're saying is... _death is a possible bot...
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2020-10-05T20:26:47Z decentyousername: aeth, is he though?
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2020-10-05T20:27:21Z decentyousername: Now you're making question my reality. After all Lisp is was originally designed for AI.
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2020-10-05T20:27:56Z decentyousername: aeth: Maybe you've already created a generally intelligent bot that answers Lisp related questions.
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2020-10-05T20:29:08Z aeth: the thing is, does this mean that _death passes or fails the Turing test?
2020-10-05T20:29:17Z aeth: having the correct answer in one line kind of seems like failing the Turing test to me
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2020-10-05T20:30:01Z phoe: I mean, if it means anything, I have seen _death once or twice
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2020-10-05T20:30:14Z phoe: he looks nothing like a bot
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2020-10-05T20:30:25Z phoe: the weirder thing, though, is that he looks nothing like the grim reaper, too
2020-10-05T20:30:58Z decentyousername: phoe: notice the underscore. He's an undercover grim reaper. Basically deaths right hand.
2020-10-05T20:30:59Z _death: there was such a system, called The LISP Tutor
2020-10-05T20:31:01Z phoe: ;; unless he's The Garbage Collector, and just has a real nice interface
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2020-10-05T20:31:48Z jasom: remember, sb-posix won't pass its tests if root is writable by all users.
2020-10-05T20:32:03Z jasom: every time I build sbcl in a chroot I forget this fact
2020-10-05T20:32:03Z decentyousername: btw. I'm currently rereading PCL. I came back from hiatus and need to refresh my mind.
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2020-10-05T20:32:21Z decentyousername: that book is good. I also managed to get a friend to read it along side.
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2020-10-05T20:38:02Z _death: (well, it didn't answer questions about Lisp.. but maybe there's progress)
2020-10-05T20:39:48Z aeth: oh, interesting, so _death doesn't answer questions not about lisp
2020-10-05T20:39:55Z aeth: _death: are you written in Lisp?
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2020-10-05T20:42:23Z _death: according to xkcd I was hacked in perl
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2020-10-05T20:49:38Z _death: there were many question answering systems written in Lisp.. in the wikipedia entry for question answering, the Unix Consultant is mentioned.. it was written by Wilensky (who wrote a Lisp book).. but the UC paper says it was written in language called PEARL... eerie, isn't it?
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2020-10-05T20:53:11Z _death: it also has a big diagram with "DEATH-EVENT" right in the middle
2020-10-05T20:58:37Z _death: Package for Efficient Access to Representation in Lisp
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2020-10-06T02:12:55Z zacts: re: indenting lisp in vim/neovim, I just discovered this plugin https://github.com/ds26gte/neoscmindent
2020-10-06T02:13:03Z zacts: it seems to work well enough for me
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2020-10-06T02:59:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-06T03:22:05Z iissaacc: I'm trying to add permessage-deflate support to hunchensocket, but I don't seem to be able to decompress the message payload with any of the deflate libraries for CL. I've put some example code here: https://paste.centos.org/view/4cbf4f54 . I must be doing something wrong but I can't figure it out
2020-10-06T03:22:33Z iissaacc: Anyone have any ideas?
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2020-10-06T03:41:35Z remexre: is there a standard class for streams, or is (satisfies input-stream-p) the best I'm gonna get?
2020-10-06T03:42:56Z beach: clhs stream
2020-10-06T03:42:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_stream.htm
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2020-10-06T03:45:12Z remexre: oh, derp; thanks
2020-10-06T03:45:42Z beach: remexre: If you go to the symbol index in the Common Lisp HyperSpec and look under `s', you will find this entry.
2020-10-06T03:46:11Z beach: And you can use the permuted index to see any symbol that has "stream" in it.
2020-10-06T03:46:30Z remexre: yeah, I'd assumed it didn't exist (under that name) since I clicked stream and got a glossary entry; I need to start remembering that italics =/= there is no bold version...
2020-10-06T03:48:42Z beach: You are right that it is often unhelpful that the links go to the glossary, especially since the glossary often does not link back to any relevant section.
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2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: MrtnDk[m] gingerale thecoffemaker Faed Grauwolf vutral banjiewen boeg jlpeters nmg sgithens trn bitmapper Jesin hendursaga Inline tessier karlosz shinohai contrapunctus cg505 larme scymtym parisienne ludston krid Necktwi jonatack gensym IPmonger Lord_of_Life Mandus igemnace glamas spacebat2 beach whiteline jprajzne phantomics mathrick kapil_ zaquest tfunnell JohnTalent cyraxjoe mrchampion selwyn Blukunfando mgsk_ quazimod1 Aurora_v_kosmose chrpape Gerula
2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: aindilis tankrim mfiano- jerme_ CEnnis91 jibanes natj212 nullheroes ech ft beluga0 idxu dmc00 v3ga vaporatorius__ logo4poop lavaflow arbv rvirding RagnarDanneskjol sm2n jasom Guest4846 ane d4ryus fouric Colleen lansiir ThaEwat niceplace ecraven yottabyte XachX l1x cognemo thonkpod chewbranca entel docl vidak` White_Flame sjl eriix[m] Papa nckx vegansbane madnificent gko lad santiagopim[m] spal bjorkintosh Codaraxis gxt mfiano pcgme[m] Posterdati v3625 Xach
2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: xlei troydm vsync elflng Patternmaster sveit bkst defaultxr guaqua ineiros katco avicenna lukego rotty greaser|q dilated_dinosaur even4void[m] xzax_[m] housel gendl grfn drmeister physpi Balooga jmercouris_ mpontillo gaze__ travv0 rme dnm kilimanjaro gjnoonan buoy49 bytesighs billstclair stylewarning xantoz ggoes jello_pudding flazh dddddd lottaquestions nullman SAL9000 gigetoo CrazyEddy jbgg lonjil Lord_Nightmare borodust AdmiralBumbleBee remexre
2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: FennecCode ibinderwolf karstensrage anddam cpt_nemo dxtr lemoinem zagura dmiles shoshin seisatsu heredoc_ antoszka beaky bacterio goldrin1227[m] eschatologist davsebamse terpri dvdmuckle gabiruh kagevf easye micro mankaev bhartrihari interruptinuse eta dale datajerk Inoperable splittist ChoHag Cthulhux jackdaniel dim femi no-defun-allowed ramin saturn2 hiredman knobo moon-child mikecheck kingcons copec Kaisyu7 h11 thijso mtd cpape` ramus @fe[nl]ix
2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: terrorjack creat drewc matijja _Ark_ Khisanth tychoish Krystof vhost- drot Yardanico gum materialfuture[m kinope infra_red[m] fwoaroof[m] Gnuxie[m] Dmytro[m] cairn malm joast flip214 rixard HDurer loke Demosthenex jurov hvxgr cyberbanjo jonathan| SumoSud0 otwieracz APic mister_m z0d Christ0pher |3b| winny cods MetaYan Spooktober phadthai Robdgreat Plazma emacsomancer nitrix Tordek vert2 cgay jdz ravndal brass ck_ mseddon madand kini jxy trittweiler
2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: lowryder shrysr stux|RC-only andinus gpiero hdasch samebchase- r3x5 mood hjudt grobe0ba simplegauss mbrumlow wigust jfb4 srji yang alandipert HiRE_ Frankenstein zigpaw1 elioat aap TMA Kabriel penguwin payphone stux|RC bonz060 ferada Ziemas ult Odin- Nikotiini kbtr rumpelszn Grue`` justinmcp mgr_ xristos phoe kim\ felideon _death mrSpec [df] Ankhers Blkt eMBee catern jgkamat fengshaun nightfly_ ozzloy shenghi gabot swflint xi null_ptr azrazalea
2020-10-06T06:09:29Z names: fiddlerwoaroof lieven esotericalgo jackhill Ekho himmAllRight17 mr_yogurt tomaw brandonz zymurgy devrtz snits markasoftware eagleflo sukaeto dlowe Firedancer_ cmatei sbryant add^_ samebchase cyberlard
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2020-10-06T06:23:49Z flip214: how far did phoe's ultra spec get?
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2020-10-06T06:26:45Z JohnTalent: So you guys debate over EQL till you've reached the OR operator in it but do you people actually do real world things with lisp?
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2020-10-06T06:28:19Z no-defun-allowed: "Having asked about the possibility that there are real people out there who use LISP (as opposed to AI People who are known to be non-real) and having received no answers, I can only conclude that LISP is not being used and that it is not, therefore, a real language."
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2020-10-06T06:30:28Z mseddon: wah
2020-10-06T06:31:39Z no-defun-allowed: The closing words of "The key of Lisp", a short-lived article series in Lisp Pointers.
2020-10-06T06:33:14Z mseddon: oh, heh. I thought it was far less self-aware than that.
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2020-10-06T06:41:11Z mseddon: I just read the first one, it's quite thoughtful actually.
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2020-10-06T06:45:33Z markasoftware: How do I get a char code as ascii? I don't want utf-8, which is what char-code in sbcl does by default
2020-10-06T06:47:31Z sm2n: utf8 is a strict superset of ascii...
2020-10-06T06:47:46Z markasoftware: oh the issue seems to be in read-line, nevermind
2020-10-06T06:47:59Z markasoftware: seems you are right sm2n
2020-10-06T06:50:11Z aeth: you restrict it to (unsigned-byte 7) and do something if you're outside of that range.
2020-10-06T06:51:32Z sm2n: that is insufficient
2020-10-06T06:51:50Z aeth: CHECK-TYPE? it works. SETF AREF? No, the array might become an octet one
2020-10-06T06:52:27Z sm2n: actually, nvm
2020-10-06T06:53:08Z sm2n: I had a brain fart, I was thinking some of the following bytes after a multibyte indicator could have a 0 in msb
2020-10-06T06:53:20Z sm2n: but that's not how utf8 works
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2020-10-06T10:08:06Z schweers: The hyperspec claims that a function name is either "A symbol or a list (setf symbol) ...".  Is SETF the only instance where a list is valid, or is this a more general mechanism?
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2020-10-06T10:13:00Z no-defun-allowed: Some implementations allow for lists starting with other symbols (eg SBCL), but it's not standard.
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2020-10-06T10:13:17Z jdz: "Claim" is not the right word, "asserts" might be more appropriate.
2020-10-06T10:14:17Z jdz: Or just "states."
2020-10-06T10:14:43Z jdz: (It seems to me that "claims" can be challenged.)
2020-10-06T10:15:23Z phoe: schweers: in portable CL, it's only SETF
2020-10-06T10:16:08Z schweers: I’m slightly confused about how it works for SETF anyway, so be honest.
2020-10-06T10:16:50Z phoe: (defvar *foo*) (defun foo () *foo*) (defun (setf foo) (newval) (setf *foo* newval))
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2020-10-06T10:17:35Z phoe: then, (funcall #'(setf foo) 42)
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2020-10-06T10:17:43Z schweers: I think I put that in a confusing way.  I know how to use it, and it’s super convienient.  It just doesn’t quite fit my mental model of how function names and DEFUN work
2020-10-06T10:17:57Z schweers: And by extension DEFGENERIC and DEFMETHOD.
2020-10-06T10:18:30Z phoe: a name is a name, it doesn't matter much for the underlying system whether you call it setf-foo or (setf foo)
2020-10-06T10:18:33Z schweers: Although, I never new that #'(setf foo) could work
2020-10-06T10:18:46Z phoe: (fdefinition '(setf foo)) also works
2020-10-06T10:18:47Z schweers: *never knew
2020-10-06T10:18:54Z schweers: huh, interesting.
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2020-10-06T10:24:24Z phoe: a name is a name
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2020-10-06T10:30:05Z jackdaniel: this is a very ugly exception in the language
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2020-10-06T10:36:56Z flip214: when I have a TCP socket (via Hunchentoot's SEND-HEADERS), how would I check for it still being alive?
2020-10-06T10:37:13Z flip214: when I write some data I can see an error on FINISH-OUTPUT, but if I don't want to write?
2020-10-06T10:38:48Z schweers: I’m not sure that UNIX can do that, but I might be mistaken.
2020-10-06T10:39:27Z flip214: schweers: well, is there something like STREAM-READABLY-P?
2020-10-06T10:39:50Z jackdaniel: maybe stream-listen?
2020-10-06T10:39:51Z schweers: Oh, forget what I said.
2020-10-06T10:39:58Z flip214: AFAIU PEEK-CHAR might block, and I can't have that
2020-10-06T10:40:21Z schweers: Maybe you can do select/poll/epoll on the socket and check for errors?
2020-10-06T10:40:32Z schweers: I don’t know how to do that in Common Lisp off the top of my head though
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2020-10-06T10:41:35Z flip214: jackdaniel: "binds to interface HOST on PORT" ??
2020-10-06T10:42:01Z flip214: ah, USOCKET:SOCKET-STATE sounds promising
2020-10-06T10:42:11Z decentyousername: Why is (mod -100 3) => 2? I expected it to be either 1 or -1.
2020-10-06T10:42:43Z decentyousername: oh nvm
2020-10-06T10:42:52Z decentyousername: I think I mixed it up with rem
2020-10-06T10:43:02Z jackdaniel: who is rem?
2020-10-06T10:43:20Z decentyousername: the remainder function
2020-10-06T10:43:48Z jackdaniel: I know, I've just acted silly by adding a reference to an anime
2020-10-06T10:44:01Z decentyousername: emilia > rem
2020-10-06T10:44:11Z flip214: now I need to figure out how to get the socket from the stream...
2020-10-06T10:44:12Z decentyousername: I also didn't like that anime. I stopped after half of it.
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2020-10-06T10:57:30Z jmercouris: I have the following http://dpaste.com/A3BHTLKMP
2020-10-06T10:57:35Z jmercouris: when Y is NOT true
2020-10-06T10:57:40Z jmercouris: it will return NIL
2020-10-06T10:57:46Z jmercouris: and try to apply the function with NIL
2020-10-06T10:57:49Z jmercouris: how can I avoid this?
2020-10-06T10:58:08Z jmercouris: I want either some-operation to return a LIST or not append anything to the functional call
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2020-10-06T10:58:39Z _death: (apply function-x (append (when ...) (when ...)))
2020-10-06T10:58:54Z jmercouris: it seems so obvious now...
2020-10-06T10:58:57Z jmercouris: thank you _death
2020-10-06T11:16:11Z flip214: hmmm, unix-simple-poll :output doesn't see when a socket has been closed... it says happily T
2020-10-06T11:20:48Z jdz: flip214: Closed on which end?
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2020-10-06T11:26:58Z flip214: jdz: client-side. CLOSE_WAIT isn't noticed in poll().
2020-10-06T11:27:42Z jdz: flip214: So your code closes the socket, and then uses unix-simple-poll to see if it's closed?
2020-10-06T11:28:34Z flip214: jdz: no, the client side closes the socket, but my thread on the hunchentoot side doesn't notice until the next write.
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2020-10-06T11:35:40Z jdz: flip214: Oh, your side is not the client side.  Anyway, sounds reasonable to me; I'd look at the implementation of unix-simple-poll to see what exactly it is doing.
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2020-10-06T11:42:36Z jdz: Not sure if socket being closed is a pending error or not, and whether `errorfds' needs to be used to detect the situation.  SBCL does not use `errorfds' parameter in unix-simple-poll, anyway.
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2020-10-06T13:02:12Z ldb: good evening
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2020-10-06T13:05:38Z ebrasca: ldb: Hi
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2020-10-06T13:06:48Z ldb: ebrasca: hello
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2020-10-06T13:16:04Z phoe: heyyy
2020-10-06T13:16:26Z phoe: flip214: stuff like this is exactly why I decided to screw raw sockets and learned to love zeromq
2020-10-06T13:16:48Z phoe: and pzmq is a really nice library for handling it
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2020-10-06T13:34:22Z flip214: Can I check for NIL in ETYPECASE? (NULL ...) or (NIL ...) don't work
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2020-10-06T13:36:35Z flip214: ah, (NULL ...) does the trick after all.
2020-10-06T13:37:01Z Bike: yeah, null = (eql nil). nil as a type is the bottom type, so a nil clause in typecase will be unreachable
2020-10-06T13:37:18Z mseddon: oh, the infinite meanings of nil. :)
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2020-10-06T13:38:05Z mseddon: to be fair it's not too bad, although generic functions and nil == null vs empty list trips me  up
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2020-10-06T13:38:39Z mseddon: at least in the type system it has one meaning, _|_
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2020-10-06T13:53:05Z contrapunctus: mseddon: how do generic functions trip you up? 🤔
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2020-10-06T13:53:35Z mseddon: not generic functions themselves, but that nil can mean both null and the empty list. meaning you can get interesting effects
2020-10-06T13:53:55Z phoe: mseddon: what do you mean?
2020-10-06T13:54:01Z Bike: you mean, both false and the empty list?
2020-10-06T13:54:05Z mseddon: yeah
2020-10-06T13:54:17Z phoe: oh, that
2020-10-06T13:54:19Z phoe: it's practical
2020-10-06T13:54:37Z mseddon: yeah it kinda makes sense. and I'm not sure if schemes #t #f () etc is a better approach
2020-10-06T13:54:52Z mseddon: I like nil punning
2020-10-06T13:55:17Z mseddon: but it snagged me a couple of times since I picked up lisp again
2020-10-06T13:56:05Z jackdaniel: another ugly exception ,)
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2020-10-06T13:57:39Z ldb: Well, multiple return value
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2020-10-06T13:59:02Z mseddon: oh yes, it's 100% user error on my part :)
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2020-10-06T14:00:43Z mseddon: but years of searching for a 'better' dialect, and I'm back here, which says something that while it's quite quirky, the quirks have been extremely well tamed to fit together.
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2020-10-06T14:03:53Z jackdaniel: ldb: is it a value that you return multiple times?
2020-10-06T14:03:58Z jackdaniel: what with it? ,)
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2020-10-06T15:21:56Z Xach: I automated my bug reporting a bit and I'm blasting out a bunch of github issues. I hope it doesn't bug people.
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2020-10-06T15:26:41Z easye: Xach: giving people more updates that they can unsubscribe from is a great use of automation.  Is this the Quicklisp bug reporting?
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2020-10-06T15:27:06Z Xach: Ja
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2020-10-06T15:28:02Z Xach: So it's semiautomatic. It's doing what I already do manually - when I see a new failure, I send it to the project. But I was hand-writing the titles and descriptions, and copy-and-pasting links. Now a program scrapes it all together - i still pull the trigger on submitting it, and double-check that I haven't already reported it.
2020-10-06T15:28:12Z Xach: So it's not quite a firehose of info
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2020-10-06T15:43:51Z phoe: Xach: I am sorry
2020-10-06T15:43:54Z phoe: https://i.imgur.com/gcUEkAN.png
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2020-10-06T15:57:56Z rogersm: I recall many years ago to have our web front end for a big bank dump our traces automatically to our bug system.
2020-10-06T15:58:28Z rogersm: Someone said that the number of errors was so high that the bug system would not be able to cope with it
2020-10-06T15:58:40Z rogersm: traces = error traces generated by the app I mean
2020-10-06T15:58:45Z rogersm: I was young and naive
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2020-10-06T16:31:02Z blackadder: (listp '()) and (atom '()) both says T. How can this be?
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2020-10-06T16:31:15Z White_Flame: an atom is a non-cons
2020-10-06T16:31:33Z White_Flame: () is not a cons cell, although you can ask of the CAR & CDR without error
2020-10-06T16:31:48Z White_Flame: also () is symbolp as well, because of the equivalence with the symbol NIL
2020-10-06T16:31:51Z blackadder: but that's a list right?
2020-10-06T16:31:54Z White_Flame: yes
2020-10-06T16:31:59Z White_Flame: a list is a cons or nil/()
2020-10-06T16:32:45Z phoe: NIL, also known as (), is the only thing that is both a list and a symbol
2020-10-06T16:33:52Z beach: clhs list
2020-10-06T16:33:53Z blackadder: yeah, I just did car and cdr
2020-10-06T16:33:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_list.htm
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2020-10-06T16:34:55Z beach: blackadder: That's for historical reasons and a bit of an aberration.  And it is not related to your original question.
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2020-10-06T16:36:00Z beach: blackadder: It is just that the system classes CONS and NULL are both subclasses of the system class LIST.
2020-10-06T16:36:47Z blackadder: where does () become symbol?
2020-10-06T16:36:58Z blackadder: is null symbol?
2020-10-06T16:37:00Z phoe: it doesn't need to become it
2020-10-06T16:37:02Z beach: In the reader.
2020-10-06T16:37:08Z phoe: it is a symbol
2020-10-06T16:37:15Z beach: When the reader sees (), it return the symbol NIL.
2020-10-06T16:37:32Z blackadder: oh
2020-10-06T16:37:37Z White_Flame: and when it sees NIL, it returns the same symbol NIL
2020-10-06T16:37:44Z phoe: do you know how cons cells/lists work?
2020-10-06T16:37:48Z beach: Try (read-from-string "()")
2020-10-06T16:37:51Z White_Flame: (assuming default packaging is in view)
2020-10-06T16:38:16Z phoe: you know, the stuff where (1) == (1 . NIL), (1 2 3) === (1 . (2 . (3 . NIL))), and so on
2020-10-06T16:38:40Z blackadder: beach, NIL 2
2020-10-06T16:39:01Z phoe: yes; NIL is the thing that it read, 2 is the position where it stopped in the string
2020-10-06T16:39:02Z blackadder: yes phoe, I learned that
2020-10-06T16:40:12Z phoe: good - then NIL is the symbol that is also the empty list that is also the value of falsehood
2020-10-06T16:40:23Z phoe: s/the symbol/a symbol/
2020-10-06T16:40:46Z White_Flame: () and NIL are literally the same singular object
2020-10-06T16:41:02Z White_Flame: it just is defined to work with both list and symbol functions
2020-10-06T16:41:11Z beach: That's not quite true.
2020-10-06T16:41:48Z beach: () and NIL are two character sequences that, when the reader sees them, it creates the same object, provided default reader macros, etc.
2020-10-06T16:41:50Z blackadder: it can be used as empty list and NIL depending on context
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2020-10-06T16:42:10Z White_Flame: *() and NIL represent the same singular object
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2020-10-06T16:46:15Z blackadder: sorry for silly questions peeps, thanks for clarifying
2020-10-06T16:48:25Z White_Flame: no prob.  You'll get very complete, pedantic answers here.  #clschool can be more newbie friendly if it's overwhelming
2020-10-06T16:49:23Z decentyousername: this is the what makes you people so valuable.
2020-10-06T16:49:51Z decentyousername: No generic platitudes or vague answers.
2020-10-06T16:49:52Z decentyousername: <3
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2020-10-06T16:50:13Z phoe: blackadder: no point in being sorry, every single one of us asked basic questions at some point in time
2020-10-06T16:50:44Z phoe: and only ended up being sorta good at lisp because they got the answers they needed
2020-10-06T16:50:52Z blackadder: phoe, yeah
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2020-10-06T17:20:35Z decentyousername: Is it alright to not setf a variable, after calling #'sort on it, because the object is being modified anyway. Or is that not portable?
2020-10-06T17:21:31Z jackdaniel: you must always assign the variable
2020-10-06T17:22:19Z jackdaniel: fact that it is a destructive operation means, that your variable may i.e contain the last cons of the resulting list
2020-10-06T17:22:38Z jackdaniel: it is the return value contains the reference to the sorted list
2020-10-06T17:23:09Z jackdaniel: our CI failed, because roswell is coded in C, banzai
2020-10-06T17:23:33Z decentyousername: Ok, so destructive really means it fucking destroys the object and you should not longer use that object, because who knows how it got messed up, right?
2020-10-06T17:23:46Z jackdaniel: scratch the CI part
2020-10-06T17:23:50Z jackdaniel: it's for another channel
2020-10-06T17:24:13Z jackdaniel: I don't know what it does while destryoing the object, could be fucking
2020-10-06T17:24:14Z decentyousername unreads the CI part.
2020-10-06T17:24:33Z decentyousername: [-] _ [-]
2020-10-06T17:24:44Z White_Flame: decentyousername: it reuses the cons cells in whatever way it wants to.
2020-10-06T17:25:02Z decentyousername: so I can't rely on it.
2020-10-06T17:25:07Z decentyousername: roger that!
2020-10-06T17:25:26Z White_Flame: so yeah, your original variable is pointing to some arbitrary cons cell that may be anywhere in the list, or may not even part of the list anymore
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2020-10-06T17:25:53Z decentyousername: I'm talking about sequences in general, but if we want to use lists as an example that's alright.
2020-10-06T17:26:23Z White_Flame: yeah, arrays are likely "safer" in that regard, but there are no guarantees.  The function is allowed to cons up a new one, too
2020-10-06T17:26:30Z jackdaniel: if you don't want to destroy the object, you may copy sequence first
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2020-10-06T17:28:43Z _death: decentyousername: it _may_ modify the object.. but then it may not.. so it could return a copy of the sequence and if you don't use that result, you don't get the sorted sequence.. sometimes the standard mandates in-place modification, but not in the case of SORT
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2020-10-06T17:40:26Z _death: also, if you want to get a good shiver down your spine, consider the following section and the amount of code that's "unaware" of it
2020-10-06T17:40:30Z _death: clhs 3.7.2.1
2020-10-06T17:40:30Z specbot: Examples of Transfer of Control during a Destructive Operation: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_gba.htm
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2020-10-06T17:45:33Z _death: this is not limited to Lisp, of course, or even to programming..
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2020-10-06T17:53:19Z Bike: does that actually come up much?
2020-10-06T17:55:59Z decentyousername: how do I open links in weechat? Does anyone know that?
2020-10-06T17:56:28Z decentyousername starts typing in the url manually
2020-10-06T17:57:06Z _death: I don't know how often it happens, but when it does..
2020-10-06T17:58:44Z _death: it's one more good reason to use nondestructive variants by default
2020-10-06T17:58:44Z decentyousername: _daeth: those examples sure are scary
2020-10-06T17:59:18Z decentyousername: But I'm all about that efficiency. I need to use bitvectors everywhere or my programs will be too slow.
2020-10-06T17:59:37Z decentyousername: (irony-mode -1)
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2020-10-06T19:29:24Z shaman_king: lisp is terrible.
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2020-10-06T19:30:29Z jackdaniel: it is; what now?
2020-10-06T19:30:44Z shaman_king: hi
2020-10-06T19:30:49Z shaman_king: are you the guy from pauldotcom ?
2020-10-06T19:31:18Z jackdaniel: no
2020-10-06T19:31:24Z shaman_king: why not
2020-10-06T19:32:33Z shaman_king: lisp sucks ass.
2020-10-06T19:32:38Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel
2020-10-06T19:32:42Z shaman_king: pussy
2020-10-06T19:32:43Z jackdaniel has set mode +b *!*b94186aa@185.65.134.*
2020-10-06T19:32:48Z shaman_king [~jack@turtleware.eu] has been kicked from #lisp by jackdaniel (shaman_king)
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2020-10-06T19:33:12Z Steeve: Thank you
2020-10-06T19:33:19Z jackdaniel: pleasure
2020-10-06T19:34:36Z _death: may want to generalize the banmask, phoe banned him the other day as well
2020-10-06T19:34:53Z jackdaniel: that is beyond my irc skill :)
2020-10-06T19:36:09Z Steeve: Was doing same thing in another channel and I said   12:29:19      Steeve | Think about all the cool stuff you could learn if you directed the time you're spending doing this....into learning new stuff
2020-10-06T19:36:15Z Steeve: Was not effective
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2020-10-06T19:53:39Z ebrasca: Steeve: I think he may be more interested in someting like "Imagine how much more you can ruin others lifes if you learn new skills".
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2020-10-06T19:54:09Z Steeve: yeah so much effort, for no return...*and* being a negative influence on other peoples' days
2020-10-06T19:54:10Z Steeve: no good
2020-10-06T20:04:40Z defunkydrummer: @Steeve i've seen worse attitudes to be honest
2020-10-06T20:05:29Z defunkydrummer: in any case, it will happen to all communities not just this one
2020-10-06T20:05:41Z defunkydrummer: by the way, good morning from the far away country of Peru
2020-10-06T20:07:03Z Steeve: Good morning - hello from the United States!
2020-10-06T20:07:25Z ebrasca: it is 22:07 ...
2020-10-06T20:09:24Z defunkydrummer: @ebrasca there's an old, ancient rule that it's always "good morning" on the internet
2020-10-06T20:10:48Z defunkydrummer: i would like to know if somebody has actually used the LSP (language server protocol) plugin out there for visual studio code, and how acceptable was it. I use SLIME, btw. But i'm planning to teach CL to one or two devs in my team and perhaps this wouold make the learning curve gentler. But i don't have any idea of how acceptable is that plugin or the experience.
2020-10-06T20:10:57Z ebrasca: I think in Peru it is like 15:10
2020-10-06T20:11:34Z defunkydrummer: or in any case if somebody has used another "modern" (read: popular with the younger generation) editor for CL development, i'm all ears for knowning how good was the experience
2020-10-06T20:11:40Z defunkydrummer: @ebrasca indeed
2020-10-06T20:12:21Z ebrasca: defunkydrummer: I have see one friend to try lisp with Atom.
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2020-10-06T20:13:41Z ebrasca: defunkydrummer: I failed to convince him to program in lisp.
2020-10-06T20:14:18Z phoe: defunkydrummer: I know that sublime has its plugin that's in development
2020-10-06T20:14:27Z phoe: same with atom
2020-10-06T20:14:32Z phoe: both of them use swank
2020-10-06T20:14:32Z defunkydrummer: @ebrasca but have you tried the atom plugin? is it ... acceptable ?
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2020-10-06T20:14:44Z defunkydrummer: well, if it uses swank that a good thing
2020-10-06T20:15:32Z defunkydrummer: i mean, if it's able to jump to definitions, inspect almost any value, and be able to inspect stack frames, and macroexpand step by step, it would be fine for educational purposes IMO
2020-10-06T20:15:54Z defunkydrummer: i wonder if the atom or sublime plugins comply with these features
2020-10-06T20:16:14Z phoe: never used them extensively, so I cannot really say much about them
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2020-10-06T20:16:24Z phoe: I guess you could download and check them out, and/or open some github issues along the way
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2020-10-06T20:42:48Z contrapunctus: I was just thinking...what if I made a shell script called, say, `cl`, meant to be used as an hash bang interpreter for Lisp scripts? It'd load the file using the first installed Lisp it can find...and voilà, portable Lisp scripts! (Well, if it were that easy, I'm guessing someone would have done it by now?)
2020-10-06T20:44:09Z sm2n: contrapunctus, https://fare.livejournal.com/184127.html
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2020-10-06T20:53:26Z contrapunctus: sm2n: lol, thanks. I knew there are like ten solutions for the task, but never investigated any in depth.
2020-10-06T20:54:22Z Xach: i found cl-launch too difficult to use and had to make something simpler to make progress
2020-10-06T20:56:34Z phoe: I think that roswell also attempts to solve this problem
2020-10-06T20:57:49Z ebrasca: What about Mezzano?
2020-10-06T20:58:54Z ebrasca: Then you don't need any of this libreryes.
2020-10-06T21:00:00Z ebrasca: Do some of this methods use lisp as some tipe of daemon?
2020-10-06T21:01:08Z contrapunctus: I guess I can just use the SBCL hash bang invocation for personal scripts which I don't need to distribute... 🤔
2020-10-06T21:01:26Z Xach: contrapunctus: or use emacs!
2020-10-06T21:01:29Z Xach: and call functions
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2020-10-06T21:04:26Z ebrasca thinks about structure editor vs plain text editor.
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2020-10-06T21:19:18Z defunkydrummer: @¢ontrapuntcus you can always create some simple bash script that takes the name of the lisp script and hands it over to SBCL or other CL implementation so it's loaded and executed immediately
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2020-10-06T21:31:17Z akoana: contrapunctus: I use a simple bash script for SBCL (as defunkydrummer suggested), see https://termbin.com/92ed
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2020-10-06T21:32:38Z contrapunctus: defunkydrummer, akoana: isn't that basically the cl-launch approach, then? 🤔
2020-10-06T21:33:50Z defunkydrummer: @contrapunctus no idea. I haven't seen cl-launch. To be honest, this approach is so simple, i don't see any need for a special library or program
2020-10-06T21:34:02Z akoana: contrapunctus: hmm, I don't know/use cl-launch, sorry
2020-10-06T21:34:29Z defunkydrummer: additionally, i seldom use Lisp for "scripts", i usually use it for full on systems that need to run as a service; in that case i configure things so the program runs as a UNIX service
2020-10-06T21:34:55Z defunkydrummer: i mean, Lisp is not really a "shell scripting" language, although you can use it as such
2020-10-06T21:35:30Z contrapunctus: defunkydrummer, akoana: it seems to do this very thing, except implementation-portably
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2020-10-06T21:40:10Z akoana: contrapunctus: probably, however I agree with defunkydrummer, it is so simple, no need for a library
2020-10-06T21:40:42Z defunkydrummer: @contrapunctus, well, if it's portable, not a bad thing
2020-10-06T21:41:21Z defunkydrummer: i mean, to each his own; it's good to know it exists. Just like roswell -- i don't need it, but it's good to know it exists and it works
2020-10-06T21:41:35Z defunkydrummer: somebody will find it useful and will benefit from it
2020-10-06T21:41:40Z akoana: well said
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2020-10-07T03:02:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-07T03:56:57Z defunkydrummer: good morning beach
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2020-10-07T04:18:39Z beach: defunkydrummer: As I recall, the LSP was not meant for interactive languages, so there is essential functionality missing when it comes to a language such as Common Lisp.
2020-10-07T04:19:01Z defunkydrummer: yes, i know
2020-10-07T04:19:21Z beach: But I know scymtym has been working on LSP for Common Lisp, so I think there might be something available.
2020-10-07T04:19:24Z defunkydrummer: i'm quite happy with emacs+slime, but i was thinking on onboarding newcomers, youngsters without the friction of Emacs
2020-10-07T04:20:07Z defunkydrummer: i mean first they need to focus on learning the language, not the editor
2020-10-07T04:20:19Z beach: I understand your point.
2020-10-07T04:20:53Z beach: Those youngsters should watch "The Last Programming Language" by Uncle Bob.  He says Emacs will eventually surpass all those IDEs because of the power it has from being written in Lisp.
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2020-10-07T04:21:45Z beach: I believe people working in languages such as Java think very highly of Uncle Bob.
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2020-10-07T04:22:51Z beach: I don't personally believe he is right about that, but that's beside the point here. :)
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2020-10-07T04:46:34Z defunkydrummer: @beach LOL not a bad idea. Indeed some of my devs believe in Uncle Bob. On the other hand, the only Bob i believe in is J.R. "Bob" Dobbs.
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2020-10-07T04:48:46Z beach: defunkydrummer: The @-convention is not used on IRC.  Just type the nick followed by colon.  Your IRC client should complete for you.
2020-10-07T04:50:01Z defunkydrummer: thanks, it's the first time I use this client (hexchat) and I forgot the convention!!!
2020-10-07T04:50:25Z defunkydrummer: it's been a long time since i enter IRC and this channel
2020-10-07T04:50:44Z beach: I suggest you use ERC or some other Emacs IRC client.  That way you have your abbrevs, your spell checker, and everything else available as usual.
2020-10-07T04:51:22Z defunkydrummer: but i missed some interaction with fellow lispers from this side of the world and from the other sinde of the world, like the people who tread around bordeaux...
2020-10-07T04:51:30Z beach: Try that with a modern IDE! :)
2020-10-07T04:51:45Z defunkydrummer: beach: thanks i'll take a look at ERC. I just forgot that i could do everything inside emacs.
2020-10-07T04:52:10Z beach: Are you saying that you have been to Bordeaux, or just that you interacted with some of us?
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2020-10-07T05:02:27Z defunkydrummer: beach: no, never been to bordeaux. I was just remembering that you were actually in bordeaux. And i want to make a pun on "tread" vs "threads"
2020-10-07T05:02:40Z beach: Heh, OK.
2020-10-07T05:02:41Z defunkydrummer: beach: actually i've never been in europe, only within continental america
2020-10-07T05:02:50Z beach: I see.
2020-10-07T05:02:58Z defunkydrummer: beach: i guess someday i'll visit europe, after all I have family there
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2020-10-07T05:03:14Z beach: Oh?  Where?
2020-10-07T05:03:26Z defunkydrummer: beach: btw you don't have an idea the amount of people i have presented your CLOSOS.pdf to!
2020-10-07T05:03:43Z beach: Thank you!
2020-10-07T05:03:50Z beach: What did they think?
2020-10-07T05:03:54Z defunkydrummer: every time i'm tired of UNIX i start speaking about lisp machines and then invariably i give them the closos /lispm.pdf
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2020-10-07T05:04:19Z defunkydrummer: beach: they don't say anything, they stay quiet. I am just planting seeds. Someday they will see the light.
2020-10-07T05:04:27Z defunkydrummer: just as I did
2020-10-07T05:04:32Z beach: Good plan.
2020-10-07T05:04:50Z defunkydrummer: and I thank @no-defun-allowed for showing me that pdf as well. (I guess the @ sign is correct here?)
2020-10-07T05:05:00Z beach: Nope. :)
2020-10-07T05:05:00Z defunkydrummer: +no-defun-allowed
2020-10-07T05:05:26Z defunkydrummer: (mention :no-defun-allowed)
2020-10-07T05:06:02Z defunkydrummer: (signal (make-condition 'alert :user :no-defun-allowed)) ; better this way?
2020-10-07T05:06:14Z beach: I do recommend "The Unix Haters Handbook".  As I  have said before, I deliberately did not read it for the longest time because I thought it was written by disgruntled old cranks, but the authors know quite well what they are talking about.
2020-10-07T05:06:53Z beach: The IRC client will highlight your own nick, and I believe some of them beep as well.
2020-10-07T05:06:58Z saganman: defunkydrummer: try rcirc, it is better than erc
2020-10-07T05:07:02Z beach: So just the nick will do.
2020-10-07T05:07:28Z saganman: Morning beach!
2020-10-07T05:07:34Z beach: Hello saganman.
2020-10-07T05:08:02Z defunkydrummer: beach: i have read a small part of The Unix Haters Handbook. It was a good laugh.
2020-10-07T05:08:14Z defunkydrummer: beach: i have come to respect disgrunted old cranks a lot...
2020-10-07T05:08:30Z defunkydrummer: morning saganman
2020-10-07T05:08:47Z saganman: Morning defunkydrummer
2020-10-07T05:08:56Z beach: I meant you could give it to your pals as a prerequisite for CLOSOS.
2020-10-07T05:09:16Z no-defun-allowed: defunkydrummer: I wasn't pinged, but the rules on what constitutes a ping on Matrix are absurd enough that I couldn't tell you what works.
2020-10-07T05:09:33Z no-defun-allowed: no-defun-allowed: Something like this consistently works. Mentioning no-defun-allowed...sometimes.
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2020-10-07T05:11:07Z defunkydrummer: beach: i do mention the UNIX haters handbook as well, and I tell you "you know, even after these years, everything that it's on the UHH is still relevant today. we haven't advanced not a single bit."
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2020-10-07T05:11:36Z beach: Indeed.
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2020-10-07T05:11:59Z defunkydrummer: beach: then i get really cranky. I guess that with a little luck i can become a disgruntled old crank as well. I am already cranky and disgruntled, now I just need to become old!! WHEEEE!
2020-10-07T05:12:26Z beach: It typically happens sooner than you expect.
2020-10-07T05:12:37Z no-defun-allowed: There's some differences, like how my /home file system hasn't kicked the bucket after five years of random crashes, while the Handbook suggests such a system wouldn't last five days with that record back then.
2020-10-07T05:13:01Z no-defun-allowed: But yeah, it's basically still right.
2020-10-07T05:13:12Z defunkydrummer: no-defun-allowed: wow you're still awake. Still dealing with the nice RC filters and the horrible thing of complex numbers for phasors / voltage vs current phase differences etc? "Fucking inductors, how do they work?"
2020-10-07T05:14:05Z no-defun-allowed: It's only 4pm here (but EE homework probably goes in #lispcafe).
2020-10-07T05:14:41Z defunkydrummer: oh, sorry, wrong chat
2020-10-07T05:16:06Z defunkydrummer: no-defun-allowed: oops, i sometimes forgot we're at different time zones. It's midnight hour here. 00:15h; round about midnight as Miles Davis would play
2020-10-07T05:16:34Z defunkydrummer: i'll keep quiet now so people can get back to talk about s-expressions m-expressions fexprs and the like
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2020-10-07T05:43:55Z decentyousername: Good morning
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2020-10-07T05:51:35Z no-defun-allowed: Hello decentyousername
2020-10-07T05:52:43Z decentyousername: I've lost my irc password, so now I'm a pleb.
2020-10-07T05:54:52Z no-defun-allowed: As SBCL would say, "Congratulations!"
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2020-10-07T06:59:48Z phoe: good morning
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2020-10-07T07:01:36Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe.
2020-10-07T07:02:27Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2020-10-07T07:03:17Z contrapunctus: decentyousername: https://keepassxc.org/ , https://www.passwordstore.org/
2020-10-07T07:03:18Z beach: phoe: I'll try to be present this afternoon for the online Lisp meeting (13:00, yes?), but I am a bit preoccupied at the moment, so we'll see.
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2020-10-07T07:07:19Z phoe: beach: OK
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2020-10-07T07:10:46Z flip214: decentyousername: if you registered your email address you should be able to reset it
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2020-10-07T07:13:03Z scymtym: do we have two presentations then? i'm asking because the eclector one is still about an hour long
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2020-10-07T07:14:03Z scymtym: phoe: ^
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2020-10-07T07:17:45Z phoe: scymtym: no, just yours
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2020-10-07T07:17:59Z phoe: beach will try to *be* present, not to present :)
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2020-10-07T07:18:28Z scymtym: phoe: beach: sorry for the confusion. i misread that
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2020-10-07T07:19:01Z phoe: no problem, I guessed as much
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2020-10-07T07:26:29Z beach: scymtym: I am interested in the questions from the participants, so I'll try my best.
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2020-10-07T07:30:20Z scymtym: beach: i will try to be there as well
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2020-10-07T08:32:11Z kreyren: kreyren@leonid:~$ MESSAGE=kreyren clisp test.lisp | ix && cat test.lisp | ix
2020-10-07T08:32:11Z kreyren: http://ix.io/2zY2
2020-10-07T08:32:11Z kreyren: http://ix.io/2zY3
2020-10-07T08:32:13Z kreyren: wtf x.x
2020-10-07T08:32:39Z kreyren: i guess irelevant warning assuming that i am using quicklisp right
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2020-10-07T08:40:57Z phoe: huh? what do you mean
2020-10-07T08:41:46Z _death: may want to verify your pastes manually before you dump them here
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2020-10-07T08:45:47Z kreyren: _death, i did
2020-10-07T08:45:54Z kreyren: ahh
2020-10-07T08:45:55Z kreyren: i didn't!
2020-10-07T08:48:13Z kreyren: it was outputting: `WARNING: DEFGENERIC: redefining function DIST in /home/kreyren/.cache/common-lisp/clisp-2.49.92-unix-x64/home/kreyren/quicklisp/quicklisp/dist.fas, was defined in top-level` before but now i can't reproduce it x.x
2020-10-07T08:48:47Z iissaacc: anyone know of a way of mimicing zlib's Z_SYNC_FLUSH behaviour with a common lisp deflate library?
2020-10-07T08:48:48Z kreyren: so i guess fixed o.o
2020-10-07T08:50:03Z _death: kreyren: indeed quicklisp produces such warnings.. as a workaround you can use muffle-warning.. as a potential solution you can submit a pull request
2020-10-07T08:50:41Z kreyren: _death, i wanted to ask if it's safe to ignore these assuming runtime, but now i am confused to why are these no longer reproducable O.o
2020-10-07T08:50:54Z kreyren is working on https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47
2020-10-07T08:51:56Z phoe: kreyren: possibly because you are loading your stuff from caches/compiled FASLs
2020-10-07T08:52:04Z phoe: try removing ~/.cache/common-lisp/
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2020-10-07T08:52:49Z beach: scymtym: Well, if you can't and I can, I'll try to answer questions.
2020-10-07T08:53:11Z kreyren: phoe, that's it! thanks
2020-10-07T08:53:11Z scymtym: beach: thanks, but it is looking good so far
2020-10-07T08:53:51Z beach: Whew! :)
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2020-10-07T08:54:57Z kreyren: So assuming that the warnings are sane to ignore.. how do i silence them? `--quiet` doesn't work on them x.x
2020-10-07T08:55:23Z kreyren has this file http://ix.io/2zY8 that he wants to adapt to be able to interpret quicklisp on any implementation
2020-10-07T08:55:35Z kreyren: (to be able to file https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47)
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2020-10-07T08:57:38Z nekosagan: why do I get NIL with (member '(1 2) '((1 2) (3 4)))? The first argument (1 2) is top level element in the second argument?
2020-10-07T08:57:45Z kreyren: (the issue has probably misinformations atm.. i will do peer-review once i finish researching the arguments)
2020-10-07T08:58:02Z phoe: nekosagan: use the EQUAL test
2020-10-07T08:58:16Z phoe: conses are not EQL-comparable and MEMBER uses EQL by default
2020-10-07T08:58:37Z phoe: kreyren: hm
2020-10-07T08:58:48Z kreyren: o.o
2020-10-07T08:58:48Z phoe: I am looking at https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/blob/b525ae5a4db984bf96a33b9c7379b3b13a4edd98/quicklisp/dist.lisp and wondering where DIST is getting redefined
2020-10-07T08:59:01Z nekosagan: I see, thanks phoe
2020-10-07T08:59:18Z kreyren: phoe, i am using quicklisp from the website
2020-10-07T08:59:25Z kreyren: https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp
2020-10-07T08:59:40Z phoe: yes, and I am looking at its sources
2020-10-07T09:00:15Z kreyren: oke o.o
2020-10-07T09:01:53Z phoe: I cannot reproduce this warning on SBCL 2.0.9 when compiling Quicklisp from scratch
2020-10-07T09:02:25Z kreyren: phoe, i don't have the issue on SBCL 2.0.6.debian either
2020-10-07T09:02:29Z kreyren: seems to be specific to `clisp`
2020-10-07T09:02:39Z kreyren: GNU CLISP 2.49.92 (2018-02-18) (built on x86-ubc-01.debian.org [209.87.16.21])
2020-10-07T09:03:45Z schweers: beach: I’m taking a glance at your closos proposal.  To be precise, this sentence tripped me up: “But it also means that in order for complex data structures to be stored in the file system, they have to be transformed into a sequence of bytes.”  This made me wonder if it’s not actually totally bonkers that on UNIX a tree in an application is serialised into bytes which are then represented in
2020-10-07T09:03:46Z schweers: a tree on disk.
2020-10-07T09:04:07Z kreyren is willing to provide SSH to his system assuming pubkey provided to be placed in ~/.ssh/authorized_keys
2020-10-07T09:04:22Z kreyren: (to observe the issue if needed)
2020-10-07T09:04:28Z phoe: I'd generally advise to not use CLISP since it's almost unmaintained nowadays
2020-10-07T09:04:37Z nekosagan: lisp has so many predicates
2020-10-07T09:05:00Z nekosagan: I read that in the past, there were even more
2020-10-07T09:05:01Z kreyren: phoe, any source to that so that i can mention it in the issue?
2020-10-07T09:05:24Z beach: schweers: I see what you mean.  But the file system is not adapted for fine-grained storage like that.  A file takes up quite a lot of space even if the contents is small.
2020-10-07T09:05:51Z schweers: I wonder if it has to be that way.
2020-10-07T09:06:05Z beach: schweers: Besides, there is still no concept of a system-wide pointer, so you would still havce to store pathnames rather than 64-bit pointers.
2020-10-07T09:06:45Z beach: schweers: That, I can't answer.  Maybe not.
2020-10-07T09:06:48Z schweers: by system-wide-pointer you mean a pointer to some data on disk?
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2020-10-07T09:07:07Z phoe: kreyren: https://gitlab.com/gnu-clisp/clisp
2020-10-07T09:07:09Z beach: Yes, exactly.
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2020-10-07T09:07:38Z phoe: multiple hanging issues and MRs, no official release for a long time
2020-10-07T09:07:40Z schweers: mmap just doesn’t cut it, I guess.
2020-10-07T09:08:00Z beach: No, because you still need to decide where to put it in the address space.
2020-10-07T09:08:16Z beach: schweers: In a system such as CLOSOS, you can consider a pointer to be the address on permanent memory, and the RAM is just a cache.
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2020-10-07T09:08:21Z phoe: and you cannot have inter-file pointers
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2020-10-07T09:08:51Z beach: schweers: You are almost describing the way Multics did it.
2020-10-07T09:09:07Z schweers: beach: I am? :)
2020-10-07T09:09:34Z beach: schweers: A Multics pointer has two parts, a "segment" and an "offset", where a "segment" is like a fixed-length file.
2020-10-07T09:10:18Z schweers: Doesn’t even i386 machine code have a similar concept, which UNIX on PC never really used?
2020-10-07T09:10:26Z beach: But Multics' address space was still too small for system-wide pointers, so each process would map the segment to a process-specific table.
2020-10-07T09:10:26Z kreyren: phoe, noted, but seems that there aren't any actionable issues O.o
2020-10-07T09:10:58Z beach: schweers: Yes, Intel tried to accommodate systems like Multics, but they never did it well enough that it would have worked.
2020-10-07T09:11:09Z schweers: I see
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2020-10-07T09:12:29Z beach: So, with Multics, in PL/I source code, you would write segment$offset where segment and offset were symbols.
2020-10-07T09:12:50Z phoe: kreyren: making a release and merging the package-local nickname MR would be two actionable issues I'd consider important
2020-10-07T09:13:14Z beach: schweers: Then, when the pointer was used, the dynamic linker kicked in and translated it to a segment number (specific to the process) and an offset determined by the symbol table of the segment.
2020-10-07T09:14:09Z beach: schweers: By default, there was no need for a separate link phase.  You just compiled the source segment to an object segment, and then you could execute the object segment.
2020-10-07T09:14:14Z kreyren: phoe, true, mentioned in the issue
2020-10-07T09:14:39Z schweers: beach: that actually sounds like an interesting approach.
2020-10-07T09:14:57Z beach: It was marvelous, given the limitations at the time.
2020-10-07T09:15:39Z beach: Unix, of course, could not implement all that, and Unix is what we got stuck with.
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2020-10-07T09:17:38Z beach: schweers: If you wrote some code in a segment called s.pl1 containing a reference such as a$b and it turned out not to exist, when you ran s (the result of compiling "pl1 s.pl1"), the linker would trap.  You could then fire up Emacs, write the a segment, compiler it and then say "continue", and the linker would patch the reference and try again.
2020-10-07T09:18:18Z beach: I am not sure that even our best Common Lisp implementations can do that.
2020-10-07T09:18:45Z schweers: What do you mean by “write the segment”?  How did these segments come into existence?
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2020-10-07T09:18:56Z phoe: beach: CL has no segments due to being memory-safe
2020-10-07T09:18:58Z beach: By emacs s.pl1
2020-10-07T09:19:13Z phoe: if there's an undefined function, you can write it, compile it, and then invoke some sort of RETRY restart that exists
2020-10-07T09:19:15Z TMA: we have still one more chance to design a better computing platform with the 64->128 bit transition that will inevitably happen when we exhaust 64-bit address space
2020-10-07T09:19:19Z beach: schweers: Similar to a file.
2020-10-07T09:19:26Z schweers: Ah, I see!
2020-10-07T09:19:34Z schweers: Now your sentence makes sence :)
2020-10-07T09:19:51Z beach: phoe: I know.  I was referring to the possibility of creating a function after an error and then write that function and retry the failing call.
2020-10-07T09:20:38Z phoe: that's doable in CL
2020-10-07T09:20:53Z beach: Sure, but do we currently do that?
2020-10-07T09:20:54Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2071#2071
2020-10-07T09:21:19Z beach: schweers: Think of a segment as a fixed-size array that in permanent memory.
2020-10-07T09:21:49Z schweers: I was, I just didn’t make the connection to something like a filepath or filename.
2020-10-07T09:22:24Z beach: phoe: Yes, but then SLIME makes it harder to do that.
2020-10-07T09:22:57Z phoe: beach: that's correct, SLIME is not designed around that
2020-10-07T09:23:03Z phoe: mostly by not making the debugger REPL available
2020-10-07T09:23:10Z beach: Exactly.
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2020-10-07T09:25:41Z beach: Multics PL/I had some of the features that we think of as unique to Common Lisp and some other interactive languages.  As we know, the Common Lisp condition system was inspired by that of Multics PL/I.
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2020-10-07T09:26:44Z schweers: Was it a hard requirement to use PL/I on multics?  Or could other languages be used instead?
2020-10-07T09:27:13Z beach: You could use other languages, but the ABI had to be the same if you wanted to use those unique features.
2020-10-07T09:27:19Z schweers: For all it’s faults it seems to me that the UNIX model is pretty well suited to allow arbirtary languages to be used.
2020-10-07T09:27:25Z beach: Think of it like you think of C and Unix.
2020-10-07T09:27:40Z schweers: Hm, I guess
2020-10-07T09:28:01Z schweers: That does make sense.
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2020-10-07T09:28:14Z beach: Multics also had a pretty good MacLisp implementation, and Emacs was written in it.
2020-10-07T09:29:24Z beach: In the past, I apparently incorrectly stated that Multics Emacs was the first Emacs written in Lisp, but I was corrected (by lispm, I think), but now I can't remember which one he claimed was the first one.
2020-10-07T09:30:42Z _death: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20373168
2020-10-07T09:31:05Z phoe: beach: https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/581
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2020-10-07T09:31:29Z beach: _death: Thank you!
2020-10-07T09:32:28Z contrapunctus: beach: "Weinreb's EINE was the first Emacs written in Lisp.", says Wikipedia
2020-10-07T09:32:29Z beach: phoe: Nice!
2020-10-07T09:32:39Z beach: contrapunctus: Got it, thanks.
2020-10-07T09:33:37Z beach: phoe: It will be moot once we finish the IDE. :)
2020-10-07T09:34:26Z _death: the amethyst ad looks like something phoe might've done
2020-10-07T09:37:04Z phoe: _death: wait which ad
2020-10-07T09:37:42Z _death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINCE
2020-10-07T09:38:03Z phoe: oh goodness
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2020-10-07T09:45:18Z phoe: beach: wow
2020-10-07T09:45:24Z phoe: take a look at the issue
2020-10-07T09:45:27Z phoe: we already have it in slime!
2020-10-07T09:46:02Z phoe: I don't know whether I should feel relieved or stupid now
2020-10-07T09:49:16Z phoe: this discovery is going to change my workflow
2020-10-07T09:49:49Z beach: Same here.  I have never seen it in the documentation.
2020-10-07T09:49:50Z no-defun-allowed: Does the REPL evaluate in the signalling code's environment?
2020-10-07T09:50:14Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: nope
2020-10-07T09:50:45Z phoe: I mean, I don't think so
2020-10-07T09:50:46Z phoe: let me try
2020-10-07T09:51:12Z phoe: ...!!!
2020-10-07T09:51:25Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2072#2072
2020-10-07T09:51:28Z phoe: it does!
2020-10-07T09:51:46Z phoe: holy cow I feel enlightened
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2020-10-07T09:52:30Z no-defun-allowed: Well, it's evaluated in the dynamic environment but not the lexical, like the SBCL debugger REPL does. But still impressive.
2020-10-07T09:52:34Z beach: I wish I had been told this ages ago.
2020-10-07T09:52:43Z contrapunctus: phoe: that issue sounds like a UI/discovery issue - should SLIME be modified to display a prompt?
2020-10-07T09:53:10Z phoe: contrapunctus: I'd vote for making it more obvious that the REPL is usable while the debugger is up
2020-10-07T09:53:33Z phoe: by whatever means available, but yes
2020-10-07T09:53:36Z contrapunctus: Would you like me to add that as a comment there?
2020-10-07T09:53:39Z _death: nice, I wasn't aware of it
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2020-10-07T09:53:51Z phoe: ...seriously? is no one here aware of it or something
2020-10-07T09:53:53Z phoe: contrapunctus: yes please
2020-10-07T09:54:12Z beach: Uh, oh.  Time for a lunch break before the online Lisp meeting.
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2020-10-07T09:59:25Z _death: I'm not sure that it's an intentional feature
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2020-10-07T09:59:40Z phoe: but it certainly is a welcome one
2020-10-07T10:00:36Z _death: well, the semantics may need to be better defined.. I think I got it to a state where the environment didn't make much sense
2020-10-07T10:01:09Z phoe: what do you mean?
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2020-10-07T10:02:53Z _death: I need to figure out how to reproduce it
2020-10-07T10:05:41Z schweers: I also didn’t know the REPL still worked when in the debugger.  Thanks!
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2020-10-07T10:06:09Z _death: but if you (bt:make-thread (lambda () (let ((*foo* 'value-in-thread)) (cerror "Print it" "What's *foo*?") (print *foo*)))) you can see one avenue of improvement
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2020-10-07T10:08:15Z _death: when you type 'e' it's the correct environment.. I guess there could be a key to set up a repl in that specific environment
2020-10-07T10:08:21Z _death: like your original suggestion in the issue
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2020-10-07T10:17:31Z _death: the environment disappears after you invoke one of the restarts, so maybe that's why they chose to just let you evaluate something in a minibuffer instead
2020-10-07T10:19:15Z _death: I suppose it could keep track of the repl window and delete it when a restart is invoked
2020-10-07T10:19:39Z _death: *buffer
2020-10-07T10:23:48Z _death: then again, the environment may not disappear, depending on the circumstances.. slime has access to the environments, so maybe it has a way to know
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2020-10-07T10:27:33Z _death: currently slime gets confused if I have the minibuffer prompt for something to eval in frame, switch to sldb and invoke the restart, then back to the minibuffer and eval something..
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2020-10-07T10:40:22Z phoe: okay, so it seems that sly actually has more support for this
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2020-10-07T10:51:30Z phoe: okay, let's roll - https://www.twitch.tv/TwitchPlaysCommonLisp
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2020-10-07T11:50:56Z Gnuxie[m]: damn was the meeting announced on reddit? I felt like I missed the announcement
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2020-10-07T11:51:25Z phoe: Gnuxie[m]: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/j3461l/
2020-10-07T11:51:33Z phoe: subscribe to the mailing list!
2020-10-07T11:52:48Z Gnuxie[m]: oh ok, this one looked really good too! no worries I know it'll be on youtube later :)
2020-10-07T11:52:56Z phoe: yes, it will
2020-10-07T11:53:06Z phoe: also you can review it on Twitch with the live chat
2020-10-07T11:53:20Z phoe: like, start from the very beginning and then keep on watching
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2020-10-07T11:55:12Z schweers: Will there be a video to watch at a later time?
2020-10-07T11:55:20Z phoe: yes, as always
2020-10-07T11:55:24Z schweers: I can’t watch it right now as I’m at work
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2020-10-07T11:56:55Z schweers: phoe: where can I find the video once it has been created and uploaded?
2020-10-07T11:57:08Z phoe: schweers: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgq_B39Y_kKD9_sdCeE5SufaeAtbYPv80
2020-10-07T11:57:24Z schweers: Awesome, thanks a lot!
2020-10-07T11:57:30Z phoe: <3
2020-10-07T11:57:41Z phoe: you can make a YT subscription to this channel to get notifications about future videos
2020-10-07T11:58:28Z schweers: Yep, I saw that.
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2020-10-07T12:18:17Z varjag: hm… so quicklisp is bundled with asdf 2.26
2020-10-07T12:18:29Z varjag thinks of least painful way upgrading to 3.x
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2020-10-07T12:18:58Z varjag: at least that explains why it had launch-program missing
2020-10-07T12:19:29Z easye: varjag: Quicklisp usually defaults to whatever the current lisp implementation is using.  2.26 is just there for Xach to bootstrap things.
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2020-10-07T12:22:33Z phoe: varjag: download the recent ASDF and load it somehow
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2020-10-07T12:22:45Z phoe: that works well for me
2020-10-07T12:22:53Z phoe: or you can use roswell which auto-manages ASDF versions
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2020-10-07T12:25:40Z jackdaniel: roswell brings the power of C and the popularity of common lisp together
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2020-10-07T12:26:31Z phoe: sure, but it works for my use case
2020-10-07T12:26:42Z phoe: (which is to install and automatically upgrade SBCL)
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2020-10-07T12:33:06Z ebrasca: scymtym: Hi
2020-10-07T12:33:19Z scymtym: ebrasca: hi
2020-10-07T12:33:48Z Xach: Hmm, I've come around on thinking I can use non-symbols as keyword arguments
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2020-10-07T12:34:15Z Xach: I thought I could, then I thought I couldn't, now I think I can again.
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2020-10-07T12:34:15Z phoe: what do you mean?
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2020-10-07T12:34:15Z phoe: Eclector presentation from today: https://youtu.be/3Yvv2XVBi58
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2020-10-07T12:34:17Z phoe: schweers: ^
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2020-10-07T12:34:17Z ebrasca: scymtym: First time for streaming.
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2020-10-07T12:34:41Z scymtym: ebrasca: i'm not sure what you are saying or asking
2020-10-07T12:35:00Z schweers: phoe: Cool, thanks!
2020-10-07T12:36:24Z Xach: phoe: http://l1sp.org/cl/3.5.1.5 suggests that &allow-other-keys makes it suppress signaling an error when i do it. but now i'm wavering - it says it's undefined in unsafe calls, and i don't know the full definitions of safe and unsafe calls. maybe i'm doing undefined unsafe calls.
2020-10-07T12:38:39Z Xach: i use non-symbols as keyword arguments when i want to build a lookup table and use the pairs-of-args enforcement of &key at compile time, e.g. (defun make-a-table (&rest keys-and-values &key &allow-other-keys) ...)
2020-10-07T12:39:00Z scymtym: schweers: maybe wait until a higher-resolution version finishes converting so you can read all the text
2020-10-07T12:39:22Z schweers: I’m not going to watch it now anyway.  I suppose I’ll have time tomorrow
2020-10-07T12:39:38Z Xach: (make-a-table "name") => compile-time error about odd number of arguments
2020-10-07T12:40:52Z Xach: (make-a-table "name" "Alice") => compiles and returns a table at runtime
2020-10-07T12:41:20Z Xach: this works in three implementations i've tried, but i am too old to fall for "it works everywhere so sbcl will always allow it" trap!
2020-10-07T12:41:21Z schweers: Xach: can’t you do this with a compiler macro?
2020-10-07T12:41:31Z Xach: schweers: yes. it's more work though.
2020-10-07T12:41:38Z schweers: Yeah, I figured
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2020-10-07T12:52:47Z ebrasca: scymtym: Can you use eclector for code deduplication?
2020-10-07T12:53:27Z scymtym: ebrasca: not eclector alone, but something based on it, sure
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2020-10-07T13:00:11Z varjag: phoe: yup it just worked (tm) when i did that
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2020-10-07T13:27:05Z sm2n: is there a way to get the source code of a function or closure at runtime?
2020-10-07T13:27:19Z phoe: sm2n: FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION
2020-10-07T13:27:24Z phoe: but it is allowed to not work for whatever reason
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2020-10-07T13:27:42Z phoe: so possibly you could get better results with the xref mechanism
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2020-10-07T13:30:27Z sm2n: hmm, thanks
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2020-10-07T13:30:45Z sm2n: xref indexes the source files, right?
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2020-10-07T13:31:00Z sm2n: so it can be out of date if a file has changed but not compiled
2020-10-07T13:31:33Z phoe: yes
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2020-10-07T13:50:04Z beach: One reason that FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION is allowed to return NIL is so that commercial vendors would not go out of business for providing a conforming implementation of Common Lisp.
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2020-10-07T13:50:16Z phoe: clhs ~$
2020-10-07T13:50:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccd.htm
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2020-10-07T13:50:35Z phoe: beach: uh actually though
2020-10-07T13:50:44Z phoe: (function-lambda-expression #'map) ;=> NIL on SBCL
2020-10-07T13:50:51Z phoe: the primary value, that is
2020-10-07T13:51:14Z beach: That doesn't contradict what I said.
2020-10-07T13:51:15Z jackdaniel: sbcl is preparing for IPO
2020-10-07T13:51:25Z jackdaniel: but that's classified  ,)
2020-10-07T13:51:40Z phoe: hm
2020-10-07T13:51:56Z beach: Now, I wonder what a non-NIL return value would be for FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION when given a generic function.
2020-10-07T13:52:00Z jackdaniel: the reason behind a decision, and what people do with the decision afterwards are two different things
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2020-10-07T13:57:10Z schweers: Could it have to do with the fact that storing the source costs memory?
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2020-10-07T13:57:44Z beach: In the SBCL case?
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2020-10-07T13:58:02Z beach: It doesn't cost very much, but maybe that decision was made a long time ago.
2020-10-07T13:58:08Z schweers: beach: yes, but also in older lisps.  I guess nowadays the cost would be negligable
2020-10-07T13:58:09Z jackdaniel: schweers: that could be controlled with space optimization flag
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2020-10-07T13:58:23Z schweers: jackdaniel: true
2020-10-07T13:58:28Z beach: But my question still stands.  What if an implementation decided to make it a generic function?
2020-10-07T13:58:55Z schweers: Good question
2020-10-07T13:59:05Z schweers: A list of sources for all the methods ;)
2020-10-07T13:59:12Z jackdaniel: beach: it is hard to say, a dispatch code?
2020-10-07T14:01:49Z jackdaniel: that might be actually useful- you could see how complicated the generic function is
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2020-10-07T14:23:54Z Bike: it's also kind of nice to be able to see how it dispatches, like to help with understanding why a method you thought would be called isn't
2020-10-07T14:23:54Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said 7 hours, 12 minutes ago: Would any of the coming optimizations (setjmp/longjmp) or inlining improve the following by eliminating unwinding?
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2020-10-07T14:32:38Z ebrasca: Are reader macros apropiate for parsing magnet links?
2020-10-07T14:33:02Z phoe: what kind of syntax are you thinking of?
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2020-10-07T14:33:38Z ebrasca: phoe: Here link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme
2020-10-07T14:33:46Z phoe: no no, I know what a magnet link is
2020-10-07T14:33:53Z phoe: I am asking what kind of Lisp syntax you are thinking of
2020-10-07T14:34:17Z ebrasca: Property list?
2020-10-07T14:34:18Z phoe: (and why is a raw string not acceptable?)
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2020-10-07T14:34:59Z phoe: I mean, #m"magnet:?xt=urn:btih:c12fe1c06bba254a9dc9f519b335aa7c1367a88a" could possibly work as a literal object
2020-10-07T14:35:37Z ebrasca: How I am going to use its arguments if it is some string?
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2020-10-07T14:36:28Z ebrasca: xt field
2020-10-07T14:36:43Z phoe: I mean, the #M reader macro can parse the string passed to it and construct a literal object with populated slots
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2020-10-07T14:37:39Z ebrasca: I have never write any reader macro.
2020-10-07T14:38:43Z phoe: you should! it's a good exercise
2020-10-07T14:38:57Z phoe: you could start by reading https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402
2020-10-07T14:43:39Z ebrasca: Time to learn read-time.
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2020-10-07T15:05:25Z Bike: you will probably still have to write a function that takes a string as input and returns your representation of a magnet URI regardless
2020-10-07T15:05:57Z phoe: yes, the part that parses the magnet string
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2020-10-07T15:11:25Z Bike: a reader macro is just the difference between #m"magnet:?xt=..." and #.(parse-uri "magnet:?xt=...")
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2020-10-07T19:06:30Z phoe: boop
2020-10-07T19:06:37Z decentyousername: beep
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2020-10-07T19:36:01Z jmercouris: profiling tips for common lisp? flame graphs or so?
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2020-10-07T19:36:49Z jmercouris: how to know which functions are taking the longest without inserting a time in every funcall
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2020-10-07T19:37:11Z jmercouris: would be nice if I could just load a package and just spit out some useful info
2020-10-07T19:37:20Z Bike: sbcl has a profiler built in.
2020-10-07T19:37:25Z jackdaniel: clim.flamegraph
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2020-10-07T19:37:35Z Bike: won't give you a flame graph, but will break down the time.
2020-10-07T19:37:42Z Bike: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Profiling
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2020-10-07T20:10:11Z TwoNotes: Is there a is-subclass-of-p function?
2020-10-07T20:10:19Z Bike: subtypep
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2020-10-07T20:49:29Z sm2n: FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION doesn't seem to work on methods at all
2020-10-07T20:49:47Z sm2n: I do (defmethod foo ((bar float) baz) (+ bar baz))
2020-10-07T20:50:03Z sm2n: and then (function-lambda-expression (c2mop:method-function (first (c2mop::compute-applicable-methods #'foo '(1.0 3)))))
2020-10-07T20:50:08Z sm2n: but it returns nil
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2020-10-07T20:51:24Z sm2n: that kinda sucks
2020-10-07T20:54:12Z _death: the mop gives you method-specializers and method-lambda-list
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2020-10-07T20:58:34Z _death: if you need more, sounds like you want ibcl
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2020-10-07T21:04:39Z phoe: ibcl?
2020-10-07T21:05:47Z _death: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ibcl.lisp
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2020-10-07T21:07:31Z sm2n: oh interesting
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2020-10-07T21:36:46Z defunkydrummer: _death: thanks for showing what IBCL is. Pretty interesting.
2020-10-07T21:39:47Z sm2n: sbcl doesn't seem to run type inference on %METHOD-FUNCTIONs either
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2020-10-07T21:45:37Z Bike: what do you mean?
2020-10-07T21:50:03Z sm2n: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2073#2073
2020-10-07T21:51:14Z Bike: ah. well, it probably discards information about the method function, sure. cos it can't really be used.
2020-10-07T21:51:25Z Bike: it'll still do type inference and other optimizations in the bodies, though.
2020-10-07T21:52:11Z sm2n: ah
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2020-10-07T21:57:21Z shaman_king: lisp is shit.
2020-10-07T21:57:46Z Xach: that is not very creative
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2020-10-07T21:58:19Z Bike: thank you.
2020-10-07T21:58:27Z phoe: my "pleasure"
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2020-10-07T21:58:56Z kinope sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/jLRYohlBJRwYOsMyfrmsFxbK/message.txt >
2020-10-07T21:59:46Z White_Flame: ugh, who connected this channel to external chat systems?
2020-10-07T22:00:08Z Xach: White_Flame: it's a public network - they are just another kind of client.
2020-10-07T22:00:17Z Bike: the message itself is fine. though i don't think i'd be of any help, since i don't know what a statechart is.
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2020-10-07T22:01:04Z _death: like a hierarchical state machine
2020-10-07T22:01:13Z White_Flame: well, it's not a client that's working well.  Most IRC clients simply would make multiple chat lines out of that
2020-10-07T22:01:14Z Bike: ah. "HSM".
2020-10-07T22:01:48Z no-defun-allowed: White_Flame: "welcome to matrix dot org"
2020-10-07T22:02:23Z kinope: Sorry about the wall of text I assumed it would be broken up automatically
2020-10-07T22:03:37Z White_Flame: there are plenty of web interfaces to irc, I wonder why there's so much matrix usage now
2020-10-07T22:03:40Z kinope: yeah I'm using matrix/element web
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2020-10-07T22:05:37Z contrapunctus: kinope: the only two choices I know of for multi-line message protocols bridged to IRC...autopastebin, or flood the channel. (Well, now that I think about it...one could also replace newlines with spaces - the results wouldn't be ideal, but when are they ever? 😄)
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2020-10-07T22:08:55Z no-defun-allowed: contrapunctus: Matrix would flood if the message isn't _too_ long. After some point, it does link to a copy of the message.
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2020-10-07T22:09:04Z kinope: oh I see it made my message into a link!
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2020-10-07T22:12:00Z kinope: May I repost JUST the relevant part of my question
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2020-10-07T22:12:41Z aeth: If it's not code (use a pastebin for that) then the way to do long messages on any client, really, is to write it out in Emacs and then manually paste it in a line at a time. I've had to do that a few times. Even clients that auto-break instead of having one line that cuts off will just break randomly in the middle, instead of the natural breaking point.
2020-10-07T22:12:50Z aeth: Plus, it encourages you to edit it down to < 5 IRC lines.
2020-10-07T22:13:19Z kinope: ok
2020-10-07T22:13:23Z kinope: I have seen some discussion in the past on the issue of documentation, specifically creating a set of classes to capture descriptions of well-defined entities that one may expect to exist in a piece of documentation.
2020-10-07T22:13:33Z kinope: With the intention to separate the concerns of input and output formats/syntax from the content/essence of the documentation itself.
2020-10-07T22:13:56Z kinope: I have a vague idea of how I might accomplish this in my use-case, but I would like to read about how others have accomplished this, so I can make use of their experience.
2020-10-07T22:14:02Z kinope: Unfortunately I have no idea of the search terms to use to summon the information from google. I have tried search terms like "class", "object", "descriptor", "description", "serialization".
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2020-10-07T22:15:25Z kinope: s/serialisation/deserialisation
2020-10-07T22:15:34Z White_Flame: you want a datastructure that can reasonably represent documentation in general?
2020-10-07T22:15:40Z White_Flame: or at least, an ontology?
2020-10-07T22:16:55Z White_Flame: the question unfortunately is a little vague to get concrete answers
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2020-10-07T22:18:49Z kinope: Well not documentation, but state machines.
2020-10-07T22:19:42Z kinope: Im not really interested in the specific use
2020-10-07T22:20:05Z kinope: just the general method.
2020-10-07T22:20:44Z kinope: but I cant give more information unfortunately as it was something i saw here in the past
2020-10-07T22:20:57Z White_Flame: the method of design in general?
2020-10-07T22:21:09Z kinope: Just hoping someone would remember
2020-10-07T22:21:24Z sm2n: yeah I remember beach talking about it
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2020-10-07T22:21:31Z sm2n: don't remember the details though
2020-10-07T22:21:50Z White_Flame: well, there is a link to all the irc logs in the topic, so maybe you can find something there?
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2020-10-07T22:22:46Z kinope: I guess the design of a system that separates concrete syntax/formating from the content.
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2020-10-07T22:23:35Z kinope: with an interface so that multiple input/output formats can be supported
2020-10-07T22:23:40Z White_Flame: is this about the concrete syntax trees in SICL maybe?
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2020-10-07T22:24:55Z White_Flame: I mean, what you're talking about is usually ASTs or IRs in compilers, which are usually custom per implementation.  Beach's CSTs contain more information but builds on them, afaik
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2020-10-07T22:26:07Z kinope: Hmm I dont recall that being a topic in the discussion, but perhaps. I'll take a look.
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2020-10-07T22:27:19Z _death: what's wrong with simple model classes like (defstruct machine name states events actions) (defstruct state name enter exit transitions children) ;; children for substates..
2020-10-07T22:28:49Z sm2n: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1596788617#1596788617
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2020-10-07T22:30:05Z kinope: sm2n: Yes! That was it
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2020-10-07T22:30:24Z kinope: Much appreciated
2020-10-07T22:30:59Z sm2n: np
2020-10-07T22:31:41Z kinope: _death: That is along the lines of what I'm thinking of doing currently
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2020-10-07T22:34:11Z _death: I wrote some state machine compiler thingy a few years ago that used that approach.. read sexps descriptions and generate C++.. defining a new output backend was a mere defmethod away..
2020-10-07T22:39:02Z White_Flame: yeah we had a similar thing that generated Java and CL backends
2020-10-07T22:39:21Z White_Flame: but I wouldn't necessarily say that the design came from any standard model other than what the project's specifics were
2020-10-07T22:39:59Z White_Flame: the rest is ... programming?  :shrug:
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2020-10-07T22:41:55Z White_Flame: and yeah, I think beach was more talking about an ontology implemented in CLOS
2020-10-07T22:42:05Z White_Flame: but the problem with those is that they have to match exactly in order to have reuse
2020-10-07T22:43:01Z _death: White_Flame: that reminds me of https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.lang.lisp/-uoDKZeKBr4/qGgFy-M3mvoJ
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2020-10-07T22:44:09Z White_Flame: right, but that has an implied ontology, not an explicit/shared one
2020-10-07T22:45:10Z White_Flame: the _contents_ of documentation (formatting, markup, links, etc) I think has a fairly reasonably fixable ontology, but how it links to source code concepts can be pretty vague
2020-10-07T22:45:24Z White_Flame: if the assumption is that all comments are representable in that ontology
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2020-10-07T22:46:16Z White_Flame: and of course, state machine specifications or other declarative systems like that will have their own set of atomic concepts to link together in system-specific linkage terms
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2020-10-07T22:46:35Z White_Flame: it does get into architecture astronaut territory to get much higher than that, though
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2020-10-07T22:47:22Z White_Flame: (or architectio ad absurdum, to coin a phrase)
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2020-10-07T22:49:18Z kinope: ok ontology looks like the term I needed. I was thinking of basing mine on the UML behavior state machine semantics. although that does leave other specifications with different semantics unable to be represented by the system.
2020-10-07T22:50:03Z kinope: I wonder if there is one that could support a diverse set of semantics
2020-10-07T22:50:28Z White_Flame: right.  If you allow meta-semantics, then your diagrams/specs become sort of like an interpretive machine to describe the machine
2020-10-07T22:51:02Z White_Flame: which could be fine, but is almost impossible to reason about, and all your code might end up way more imperative
2020-10-07T22:52:01Z White_Flame: and really, "able to work with arbitrary semantics" is almost equivalent to "artifical intelligence" :-P
2020-10-07T22:53:29Z White_Flame: limiting what you support gives you much better tractability, and hopefully you can compose on what semantics you offer, instead of needing wholly new semantics in addition
2020-10-07T22:58:12Z kinope: perhaps not arbitrary, but a few well defined ones would suffice. yeah maybe one could pick a set of mutually compatible semantics to create an execution model that suits the problem. although I really have no use for that complexity. I'd be happy using a subset of UML
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2020-10-07T23:10:00Z kinope: I have to head off, but thanks for helping me out
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2020-10-08T03:15:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-08T03:54:05Z remexre: is iterate's in-sequence O(n) per iteration on lists?
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2020-10-08T04:04:18Z no-defun-allowed: Looking at the macroexpansion, it could be.
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2020-10-08T06:00:30Z saganman: what does a defun return? the last evaluated expression?
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2020-10-08T06:03:29Z Lycurgus: it's a special form, doesn't "return" anything
2020-10-08T06:03:43Z beach: There is not such thing as "a defun".  A function returns the values of the last form in the body.
2020-10-08T06:03:59Z beach: A DEFUN form returns the name of the function being defined.
2020-10-08T06:04:02Z no-defun-allowed: A defun form returns the function name :)
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2020-10-08T06:05:35Z saganman: beach, I suspected that.
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2020-10-08T06:07:40Z beach: Which part?
2020-10-08T06:07:54Z Lycurgus: the name
2020-10-08T06:09:27Z Lycurgus: no-defun-allowed, whence ur nick?
2020-10-08T06:09:44Z saganman: beach, the last form
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2020-10-08T06:12:04Z beach: saganman: Notice that, because you said "a defun" both Lycurgus and no-defun-allowed misunderstood.
2020-10-08T06:12:32Z beach: It is very important to try to use the right terminology.
2020-10-08T06:12:32Z saganman: beach, I was writing tail recursive functions yesterday where I wrote fibonaci function using different lisp elements, cond, case, if, while. After that I wrote skip first n elements which part of execise in book, where the last form is nil list
2020-10-08T06:12:43Z saganman: ah yes beach
2020-10-08T06:15:00Z saganman: I should have said function
2020-10-08T06:15:04Z saganman: not defun
2020-10-08T06:15:17Z beach: Lycurgus: Please be careful with your answers.  DEFUN is a macro and not a special operator (or special form), and I know of no special form that returns no values.
2020-10-08T06:15:35Z Lycurgus: beach, acknowledged
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2020-10-08T06:21:38Z saganman: A defun form returns the function name << haha, spot on
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2020-10-08T06:25:24Z no-defun-allowed: Lycurgus: I don't know where no-defun-allowed came from.
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2020-10-08T06:25:51Z Lycurgus: no-defun-allowed, acknowledged
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2020-10-08T06:46:30Z aeth: Everything returns something except for (VALUES) or something user-defined that returns (VALUES) but most of the time (except when using MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL or MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST) that will just implicitly create a NIL value because most uses of multiple values implicitly turns the missing nth value into NIL when the nth value is requested (including the 1st value!).
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2020-10-08T06:50:58Z flip214: aeth: (defun foo () '(values))   returns (VALUES)    ;)
2020-10-08T06:53:03Z aeth: flip214: Sorry, I mean #.(VALUES) which is then expressed as (defun foo () (values))
2020-10-08T06:53:17Z aeth: I guess I need to use read-eval via #. in order to evalue an expression when I'm actually talking about the result
2020-10-08T06:55:01Z flip214: "something user-defined that runs (VALUES) as last form"?
2020-10-08T06:55:22Z flip214: evaluating at read time won't help with the runtime-returnvalue
2020-10-08T06:56:14Z aeth: flip214: I'm talking about the IRC read time :-)
2020-10-08T06:56:47Z aeth: but to be more serious, #.(values) is probably just going to get you NIL because it's really hard to avoid turning (values) into NIL (and you probably just want NIL when the return value isn't important, anyway)
2020-10-08T06:57:18Z aeth: heh, actually, it doesn't get you NIL
2020-10-08T06:57:25Z aeth: (list #.(values) 1) => (1)
2020-10-08T06:57:35Z aeth: in SBCL
2020-10-08T06:57:42Z aeth: in ECL, though (list #.(values) 1) => (NIL 1)
2020-10-08T06:57:42Z flip214: well, you can always add another value telling whether the previous value was important... see GETHASH
2020-10-08T06:57:46Z Lycurgus stands corrected.
2020-10-08T06:57:52Z aeth: hmm, I wonder... Is this UB or is one of the implementations wrong?
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2020-10-08T07:05:15Z flip214: I guess that (1) is correct.
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2020-10-08T07:49:50Z TMA: clhs #.
2020-10-08T07:49:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm
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2020-10-08T07:54:20Z TMA: aeth: (list #.(values 1 2) 3) => (1 3) ; no values are interpreted as nil where a single value is expected. like (if (values) 1 2) => 2 ; when #. interprets two values as one, it shall do the same for zero values
2020-10-08T07:54:35Z TMA: flip214: I am in favor of (NIL 1)
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2020-10-08T07:59:05Z flip214: TMA: that means that a reader macro MUST include a value into the source, even if it's "just" a NIL.
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2020-10-08T08:09:36Z TMA: flip214: not all reader macros MUST do that (#+ and #- don't) but #. looks to me like it MUST, indeed
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2020-10-08T08:32:31Z flip214: TMA: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm#set-macro-character
2020-10-08T08:32:42Z flip214: uses (values) in an example explicitly (comment reader)
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2020-10-08T09:06:26Z TMA: flip214: (defun hash-dot-reader (stream char) (declare (ignore char)) (cond (*read-eval* (eval (read stream t nil t))))) ; this is a valid #. reader function in my opinion
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2020-10-08T09:08:47Z TMA: #.foo is read as the object resulting from the evaluation of the object represented by foo.
2020-10-08T09:10:50Z flip214: TMA: but you can't ignore comments if you _always_ insert a value.
2020-10-08T09:12:49Z TMA: flip214: I am not arguing for always inserting a value in general case. comments do never insert a value, #- and #+ do not always do so
2020-10-08T09:13:10Z TMA: flip214: I am arguing that #. as specified always does
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2020-10-08T09:17:06Z TMA: in a sense "the object resulting from the evaluation of (values)" is the set of no values
2020-10-08T09:18:27Z TMA: I am arguing that (list '#.(values) 1) shall evaluate to the same as (list (eval '(values)) 1)
2020-10-08T09:19:13Z TMA: and as 'nil evaluates to the same value as nil, namely nil, so shall (list #.(values) 1)
2020-10-08T09:21:12Z TMA: I do have an error in the function I have written before. it shall look thus:
2020-10-08T09:22:29Z TMA: (defun hash-dot-reader (stream char) (declare (ignore char)) (cond (*read-eval* (let ((v (eval (read stream t nil t)))) v)))
2020-10-08T09:24:51Z TMA: or more succintly: (defun hash-dot-reader (stream char) (declare (ignore char)) (cond (*read-eval* (prog1 (eval (read stream t nil t))))))
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2020-10-08T09:32:06Z kreyren_: Requesting peer-review for the information provided https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47
2020-10-08T09:38:45Z phoe: the Qicklisp logo has a typo
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2020-10-08T09:44:08Z kreyren_: phoe, where?
2020-10-08T09:44:12Z phantomics: clisp is not "Common Lisp," it is a dialect of Common Lisp
2020-10-08T09:44:22Z phantomics: Qicklisp
2020-10-08T09:44:27Z phoe: kreyren_: the very top of the post
2020-10-08T09:44:29Z phoe: see the image
2020-10-08T09:44:57Z kreyren_: ah
2020-10-08T09:44:59Z phoe: also CLISP is the name of the implementation - it is written in C, hence CLISP
2020-10-08T09:45:00Z phantomics: Also, defun and defmacro are not "hard-coded functions," they are macros
2020-10-08T09:45:13Z phoe: also, you mix up multiple dialects
2020-10-08T09:45:24Z phantomics: By hard-coded functions, I think you're referring to the special forms, the handful of hardcoded things that are the basis for the language
2020-10-08T09:45:28Z phoe: CLISP, ECL, SBCL are all implementations of Common Lisp; Racket, Elisp, Rlisp are all different dialects
2020-10-08T09:45:47Z phantomics: (if) and (quote) are special forms, (defun) and (defmacro) are not
2020-10-08T09:45:50Z phoe: Quicklisp is only for Common Lisp impementations
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2020-10-08T09:46:29Z phantomics: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm
2020-10-08T09:46:35Z phantomics: This is a list of the Common Lisp special forms
2020-10-08T09:46:42Z phoe: there's a lot of stuff mixed up in there
2020-10-08T09:48:05Z beach: s/lisp/Lisp/ s/quicklisp/Quicklisp/
2020-10-08T09:48:13Z kreyren_: phoe, fixed the logo
2020-10-08T09:48:17Z beach: Lots of lacking articles.
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2020-10-08T09:48:39Z beach: kreyren_: The logo has a lower-case L.
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2020-10-08T09:48:50Z beach: ... should have, I mean.
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2020-10-08T09:49:23Z beach: kreyren_: Lots of lacking articles.  Is your native language Polish or something similar?
2020-10-08T09:49:23Z kreyren_: phantomics, added note about it being dialect
2020-10-08T09:49:42Z phoe: > Common Lisp (clisp) - This is a dialect of common lisp
2020-10-08T09:49:48Z phoe: ummmm
2020-10-08T09:49:52Z beach: Current cargo-make version -> The current cargo-make version
2020-10-08T09:50:03Z beach: Ability to use -> The ability to use
2020-10-08T09:50:05Z phoe: okay, maybe let's start from the top - which Lisp dialects do you want to support?
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2020-10-08T09:50:31Z beach: arguable better alternative -> arguably a better alternative
2020-10-08T09:50:32Z kreyren_: phoe, updated the note about CLISP
2020-10-08T09:50:33Z phantomics: Do you want to support all dialects that Quicklisp works with?
2020-10-08T09:50:51Z beach: requires following entry -> requires the following entry
2020-10-08T09:51:04Z beach: common lisp -> Common Lisp.
2020-10-08T09:51:17Z kreyren_: phantomics, changed from function to functions/macros
2020-10-08T09:51:52Z phoe: because if you want to support Quicklisp then you'll want to remove everything that is not CL
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2020-10-08T09:52:00Z phoe: so, Racket, elisp, rlisp, and the etc..
2020-10-08T09:52:05Z phantomics: expecting to allow for-> expected to allow for
2020-10-08T09:52:16Z phoe: Quicklisp only works with Common Lisp, so: SBCL, CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL, CLISP, ACL, LW
2020-10-08T09:52:28Z phoe: that's all the complete contemporary Common Lisp implementations
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2020-10-08T09:52:37Z beach: read and maintain as it -> read and maintain, as it
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2020-10-08T09:53:41Z phantomics: kreyren, changing from function to functions/macros is still not accurate, as many of those in your list are not "hardcoded"
2020-10-08T09:53:58Z phantomics: The list of Common Lisp's hardcoded special forms is at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm
2020-10-08T09:54:29Z phantomics: Special forms are neither functions nor macros
2020-10-08T09:55:12Z kreyren_: beach, about the logo i left it with upper-case L because i think it looks better :p
2020-10-08T09:55:21Z kreyren_: beach, elaborate lacking articles?
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2020-10-08T09:56:17Z kreyren_: attempted to fix 'The'
2020-10-08T09:56:56Z kreyren_: phoe, > maybe let's start from the top - which Lisp dialects do you want to support? < -- Ideally i want it to run as many dialects and implementations as possible
2020-10-08T09:57:05Z phantomics: version 0.32.6 requires following entry -> version 0.32.6 requires the following entry
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2020-10-08T09:57:24Z phoe: kreyren_: forgive the blunt question, do you know basics of Common Lisp?
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2020-10-08T09:58:03Z phantomics: Quicklisp is easy to install and works with ABCL, Allegro CL, Clasp, Clozure CL, CLISP, CMUCL, ECL, LispWorks, MKCL, SBCL, and Scieneer CL, on Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows.
2020-10-08T09:58:30Z phoe: since the issue confuses lots of stuff that are Lisp and CL basics in general
2020-10-08T09:58:35Z phantomics: That's from the Quicklisp site naming the Lisp implementations that Quicklisp works with
2020-10-08T09:58:39Z beach: kreyren_: "a", 'the" are articles.
2020-10-08T09:58:40Z kreyren_: phoe, > Quicklisp only works with Common Lisp, so: SBCL, CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL, CLISP, ACL, LW < -- added them on the list
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2020-10-08T10:00:15Z kreyren_: phoe, i am confident in basics of Common lisp, but it seems that quicklisp may allow for compatibility above common lisp dialects?
2020-10-08T10:00:39Z beach: kreyren_: There is no such thing as "Common Lisp dialects".
2020-10-08T10:00:57Z no-defun-allowed: phoe: I recall this exercise being about running code on systems with Common Lisp implementations that can run Rust code but don't have a POSIX shell. Computer history isn't really basic Common Lisp, but it would be useful right now.
2020-10-08T10:01:38Z phoe: kreyren_: I kinda wonder why you confuse CL with other Lisp dialects then
2020-10-08T10:01:39Z kreyren_: beach, sorry meant implementation
2020-10-08T10:01:55Z phoe: rustlisp isn't CL, neither is elisp or racket; quicklisp doesn't run on them
2020-10-08T10:02:27Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, rustlang doesn't work on some systems that common lisp does that's true, but rust has a handling of platform compatibility that allows anyone to implement it on their system in theory
2020-10-08T10:02:46Z kreyren_: phoe, cargo-make is only providing the logic to run common lisp
2020-10-08T10:03:04Z kreyren_: worst case scenario i want to make a lisp wrapper that translates the toml file in common lisp
2020-10-08T10:03:12Z phoe: oh, perfect
2020-10-08T10:03:26Z phoe: then everything that isn't CL should go out of this issue
2020-10-08T10:03:35Z kreyren_: phoe, edit: cargo-make can interpret common lisp assuming rust-lisp in a working state
2020-10-08T10:03:43Z kreyren_: i.e what's it's currently doing with duckscript
2020-10-08T10:03:57Z no-defun-allowed: r-l is nowhere near running Common Lisp code.
2020-10-08T10:04:04Z kreyren_: phoe, so i can't use quicklisp for dialects of common lisp? i.e. elisp?
2020-10-08T10:04:13Z phoe: elisp is NOT a dialect of common lisp
2020-10-08T10:04:18Z no-defun-allowed: And if porting Rust isn't out of the question, why not Lisp--oh good God.
2020-10-08T10:04:23Z phoe: elisp is a dialect of lisp
2020-10-08T10:04:29Z phoe: common lisp is a dialect of lisp
2020-10-08T10:04:30Z kreyren_: phoe, dialect of lisp then!
2020-10-08T10:04:35Z phoe: where lisp is a family of languages
2020-10-08T10:04:36Z aeth: Quicklisp depends on ASDF, which heavily uses CLOS.
2020-10-08T10:04:45Z kreyren_: where the current blocker for elisp running quicklisp seems to be: Symbol’s function definition is void: defpackage
2020-10-08T10:04:50Z aeth: Heavy CLOS code would be a nightmare to port to other Lisp dialects.
2020-10-08T10:04:51Z no-defun-allowed: You cannot run Common Lisp code on rust-lisp or Emacs.
2020-10-08T10:04:52Z phoe: no, it is not
2020-10-08T10:05:00Z kreyren_: aeth, ah i see updating
2020-10-08T10:05:10Z phoe: the blocker for elisp running quicklisp is the fact that quicklisp is written in Common Lisp, not Emacs Lisp
2020-10-08T10:05:33Z phoe: like, have ever tried compiling Rust code with G++?
2020-10-08T10:05:49Z sm2n: rust is a one-implementation language, and is very dependency intensive, porting CL would be way easier...
2020-10-08T10:06:24Z no-defun-allowed: And I still don't know what machines you target that don't have a POSIX shell, but can run some Common Lisp implementation.
2020-10-08T10:06:51Z kreyren_: sm2n, my codebase is in rustlang and i am using commonlisp for a repository management
2020-10-08T10:07:01Z sm2n: but why
2020-10-08T10:07:56Z kreyren_: sm2n, because common lisp is more functional compared to shell allowing me for a better implementation
2020-10-08T10:08:23Z kreyren_: while not preventing platform compatibility if anyone decides to use non-standard system, legacy, etc..
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2020-10-08T10:08:43Z sm2n: anyway, someone posted the name of the approach sbcl uses for type-inference the other day, but I lost it, could someone give me a reference?
2020-10-08T10:08:48Z kreyren_: alike i have a single board computer that has custom kernel with lisp that is not practical to use posix shell
2020-10-08T10:08:48Z no-defun-allowed: What legacy systems do you know of that run Common Lisp and your code?
2020-10-08T10:09:25Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, current target is VAX which i am still researching where the ideology is to work on as many systems as possible without being limited by the technology itself
2020-10-08T10:09:33Z no-defun-allowed: That makes no sense, porting a shell is probably easier than porting Lisp.
2020-10-08T10:09:41Z aeth: Emacs Lisp is close enough to Common Lisp where you get the mistaken impression that it will run your Common Lisp code and that your Common Lisp knowledge will transfer. There are quite a few incompatibility landmines hidden there, though.
2020-10-08T10:09:43Z kreyren_: was thinking that worst case scenario i can make a hardware that can be added to the VAX
2020-10-08T10:09:45Z aeth: Scheme is pretty close to Common Lisp, but renames almost everything, which helps avoid this pitfall and makes it clearer that they're separate languages.
2020-10-08T10:10:15Z aeth: (And Racket is basically Scheme where your set-car! and set-cdr! won't work.)
2020-10-08T10:10:22Z kreyren_: aeth, noted
2020-10-08T10:10:52Z kreyren_: going to update the issue
2020-10-08T10:13:03Z kreyren_: How should i rephrase https://dpaste.com/3KVUDLNGF.txt ? So to make it understandable what is quicklisp doing on the backend to use these to redefine the functions in implementation-independant  code?
2020-10-08T10:13:25Z phoe: I'd remove all of this altogether and link to the Common Lisp specification
2020-10-08T10:13:52Z phoe: seriously, all of this has already been done at http://clhs.lisp.se/
2020-10-08T10:14:02Z kreyren_: phoe, seems sane to me adapted
2020-10-08T10:14:06Z no-defun-allowed: Is it even necessary to mention how to write the language if you're requesting code to kick up a Lisp process?
2020-10-08T10:14:19Z phoe: why do you want to adapt this?
2020-10-08T10:14:28Z phoe: CL is already well-defined, and if you want to write CL, then you use the CL specification
2020-10-08T10:16:06Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, yes as i am expecting the logic to create a temporary file with the `script` content, find the supported executables and apply the flags to allow it to run that way
2020-10-08T10:16:47Z kreyren_: which also needs to prepend the codeblock that loads quicklisp
2020-10-08T10:17:01Z phoe: I'd leave the part of describing what Common Lisp works like to someone who already knows Common Lisp - it's evident to me that you don't if this paste looks good to you but still contains the DEFINE keyword that does not exist in Common Lisp, and where you list unquote below quote, not below quasiquote
2020-10-08T10:17:01Z kreyren_: which is implementation-dependent
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2020-10-08T10:17:13Z phoe: or
2020-10-08T10:17:15Z phoe: I'd avoid that part altogether
2020-10-08T10:17:38Z phoe: also, the part that loads quicklisp should be (load #p"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") - this one is implementation-independent I think
2020-10-08T10:17:55Z no-defun-allowed: No, the code that loads Quicklisp isn't implementation dependent. Starting a Lisp process and getting it to load a file is implementation-dependent, but it's not done in Lisp.
2020-10-08T10:17:55Z phoe: all the implementation conditionals are stored inside QL logic
2020-10-08T10:17:56Z kreyren_: phoe, true i don't know how common lisp works on the backend was taking that from rlisp readme
2020-10-08T10:17:59Z jmercouris: thanks for the link Bike
2020-10-08T10:18:24Z phoe: kreyren_: that's why I'd suggest skipping this part altogether
2020-10-08T10:18:29Z aeth: kreyren_: the readme of that language says that it was inspired by both CL and Scheme
2020-10-08T10:18:33Z kreyren_: phoe, checking.. note that it also can't output anything else but the logic provided
2020-10-08T10:18:39Z no-defun-allowed: Furthermore, the "hard-coded logic" you provided doesn't describe how the loading code works at all. None of it is used in your prelude code.
2020-10-08T10:19:07Z phoe: let CL work the way it works; if I understood you correctly, you are trying to provide an adapter in Rust code that allows one to run some Common Lisp implementation and load Quicklisp in it and then do something
2020-10-08T10:19:48Z aeth: kreyren_: Lisp has "dialects" (including CL, Emacs Lisp, and Scheme). Scheme itself sort of has "dialects" (including Racket). Common Lisp is a unified language that follows one specification and only has "implementations".
2020-10-08T10:20:03Z kreyren_: phoe, the `(load #p"~/quicklisp/setup.lisp")` seems to work on ECL, CLISP and SBCL on my end
2020-10-08T10:20:08Z aeth: The distinction being that writing portable Common Lisp is possible, writing portable Scheme is hard, and writing portable "Lisp" in the general sense is very, very hard.
2020-10-08T10:20:12Z jackdaniel: what are we discussing again?
2020-10-08T10:20:38Z aeth: jackdaniel: this, I think. https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47
2020-10-08T10:21:10Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2020-10-08T10:21:40Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, anything relevant appreciated i want to use it to implement quicklisp runner in cargo-make and possibly rlisp
2020-10-08T10:21:55Z kreyren_: so that cargo-make would be able to interpret common lisp code
2020-10-08T10:21:56Z jackdaniel: I don't know what is cargo-make, even less what is rlisp
2020-10-08T10:22:16Z aeth: kreyren_: Most Lisps don't follow any specification, are very minimalist (even more so than Scheme, which has some hard features like call/cc), and usually wind up with the label "toy Lisp". rlisp appears to be one of these.
2020-10-08T10:22:20Z no-defun-allowed: rlisp isn't a Common Lisp implementation, so it couldn't load Quicklisp, or do anything particuarly useful with it.
2020-10-08T10:22:22Z jackdaniel: common lisp code is usually executed after (at least minimal) compilation
2020-10-08T10:22:23Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, cargo-make is arguably a better alternative to `make` reading `Makefile`
2020-10-08T10:22:24Z sm2n: I found the paper I was looking for: https://web.archive.org/web/20200426054415/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/TInference.html
2020-10-08T10:23:21Z no-defun-allowed: One does not use Makefiles with Lisp, so it's a bit like designing a better tennis racket for a basketball player.
2020-10-08T10:23:30Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, ah you are right that's implementing lisp only.. that still would make it helpful though
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2020-10-08T10:24:01Z aeth: Every living CL except CLISP is primarily compiled instead of interpreted, and even CLISP is bytecode-compiled first.
2020-10-08T10:24:05Z jackdaniel: if you want to use common lisp with quicklisp, then put the usual steps of installing and loading it in your cargo make; as of running common lisp programs with "rlisp", it is as futile as compiling c++ code with c compiler
2020-10-08T10:24:06Z kreyren_: sm2n, thanks! reference added
2020-10-08T10:24:19Z jackdaniel: at some corner cases doable, however not very good use of ones time
2020-10-08T10:24:29Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, i can use common lisp in makefiles though
2020-10-08T10:24:47Z kreyren_: http://ix.io/2A4D
2020-10-08T10:24:50Z aeth: jackdaniel: and most importantly, ASDF (a dependency of Quicklisp) is not one of those corner cases. It is full of CLOS usage.
2020-10-08T10:24:59Z phantomics: The idea is to implement a system build utility that can build CL systems as part of a larger software system, is that right?
2020-10-08T10:25:16Z aeth: Object systems are one of the main incompatibilities between Lisps, even if you go out of your way to write portability layers.
2020-10-08T10:25:22Z jackdaniel: that has been already implemented in bazel, you may take hints there
2020-10-08T10:25:36Z kreyren_: phantomics, not system build utility this is for a software project management
2020-10-08T10:25:45Z kreyren_: so it may include CI/CD as well
2020-10-08T10:26:17Z jackdaniel: as fun as this discussion is, I can't help but note, that while not literally offtopic, it definetely smells like offtopic ,) see you later
2020-10-08T10:26:23Z no-defun-allowed: It would not, as there is significantly more in a Common Lisp implementation than pure Lisp. Another corny analogy: stacking another bucket of sand on your sandcastle to make a skyscraper is just as helpful.
2020-10-08T10:26:27Z kreyren_: aeth, which would be a concern if they support rustlang?
2020-10-08T10:26:48Z kreyren_: assuming that cargo-make would be able to interpret lisp/common-lisp
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2020-10-08T10:27:23Z sm2n: kreyren_, wut
2020-10-08T10:27:25Z aeth: kreyren_: I'm not sure what you mean by support... you'd probably CFFI into it using an exported C API.
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2020-10-08T10:27:40Z sm2n: whatever, I am done with this discussion
2020-10-08T10:27:50Z aeth: kreyren_: By "interpret" do you mean "run scripts"? The scripts themselves are probably compiled.
2020-10-08T10:28:07Z kreyren_: aeth, > Object systems are one of the main incompatibilities between Lisps, even if you go out of your way to write portability layers. < -- if they support rustlang and not *lisp then that would allow running lisp on these systems afaik
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2020-10-08T10:28:25Z kreyren_ not sure what you mean by object systems though, my first though was golang
2020-10-08T10:28:35Z jackdaniel: this does not make sense and is definetely offtopic
2020-10-08T10:28:38Z no-defun-allowed: What? Now Go is involved?
2020-10-08T10:28:48Z jackdaniel: kreyren_: I think that this topic better suits the #lispcafe channel
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2020-10-08T10:28:58Z jackdaniel: or, eventually, ##lisp
2020-10-08T10:28:58Z no-defun-allowed: No, please do not take it to #lispcafe
2020-10-08T10:29:19Z kreyren_: aeth, looking at rust-lisp i think that could allow it to be compiled on demand
2020-10-08T10:29:24Z aeth: kreyren_: I mean, how it does OOP (or the lack of OOP) is going to be the main incompatibility with random-cl-inspired-lisp and common-lisp... just like it's the main incompatibility between Schemes.
2020-10-08T10:29:36Z jackdaniel: either way it is offtopic here -- this is a channel dedicated to common lisp, so please move it elsewhere
2020-10-08T10:30:04Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, the main concern is quicklisp on common lisp atm
2020-10-08T10:30:19Z kreyren_: aeth, i am in ##lisp for that if you want
2020-10-08T10:30:44Z jackdaniel: loading quicklisp with common lisp is documented at quicklisp.org, the rest is a matter of calling cl-implementation --load "file-with-source-code.lisp"
2020-10-08T10:30:46Z Xach: quicklisp is a common lisp program. other lisps are not common lisp and are not compatible.
2020-10-08T10:31:11Z Xach: other lisps could be made compatible. it's a lot of work. nobody has done it. common lisp has a lot of features and quicklisp uses a lot of them.
2020-10-08T10:31:13Z kreyren_: jackdaniel, cargo-make is creating a temporary files so those need more arguments usually
2020-10-08T10:31:23Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, but rlisp is NOT a Common Lisp implementation, and making it run Common Lisp code is not much easier than just writing a Common Lisp implementation from scratch.
2020-10-08T10:31:27Z aeth: "Lisp" is just syntax. Some Lisps have about as much in common as JavaScript and C++ in the {} languages. I wouldn't expect a library to be able to run in C, C++, D, Java, C#, JavaScript, and everything else at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages_by_type#Curly-bracket_languages
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2020-10-08T10:31:51Z Xach: also, quicklisp uses extra-standard functionality that would also need implementation - networking and filesystem work mostly.
2020-10-08T10:31:55Z aeth: (I mean, some code probably does, but it's an impressive polygot program if it does)
2020-10-08T10:31:58Z Xach: (that's not too hard)
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2020-10-08T10:32:23Z kreyren_: no-defun-allowed, noted i though that rlisp is common-lisp my bad!
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2020-10-08T10:33:25Z kreyren_: Xach, is common lisp implemented by design to possibly support non-common lisp or would that need lots of rewriting?
2020-10-08T10:33:56Z aeth: kreyren_: Writing a Common Lisp in Rust is possible, but not easy. There's an effort to write a C++/LLVM Common Lisp called Clasp but it's taking a long time.
2020-10-08T10:34:14Z kreyren_: aeth, noted
2020-10-08T10:34:38Z kreyren_: Xach, sorry meant to say is `quicklisp implemented by design`
2020-10-08T10:34:42Z aeth: Supporting non-CL dialect of Lisp in CL is generally done by writing an implementation of that non-CL dialect of Lisp inside of CL because those dialects are almost always much smaller than CL.
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2020-10-08T10:35:14Z kreyren_: i see
2020-10-08T10:35:34Z Xach: kreyren_: it is implemented by design to take full advantage of Common Lisp and I think trying to make it work elsewhere would be difficult and not very rewarding - since it is meant to allow you to run other common lisp programs, which also are not portable to other lisps.
2020-10-08T10:35:43Z Xach: "Lisp" isn't generic - there are only specifics
2020-10-08T10:35:43Z aeth: Supporting CL features in non-CL Lisps is a much harder route because you'd basically have to implement CL in those languages and it's easier to implement small-in-large than large-in-small.
2020-10-08T10:36:00Z aeth: (Especially since CL will demand some low-level features so you might have to modify the small language's implementation!)
2020-10-08T10:36:19Z no-defun-allowed: kreyren_: Bear in mind that Quicklisp is used to load other Common Lisp code. You may get Quicklisp ported, but for what if you can't run any of the code you use it to download?
2020-10-08T10:36:45Z Xach: I think the ideas of quicklisp are pretty portable, even if the code itself is not especially
2020-10-08T10:36:49Z aeth: Emacs Lisp is the only one that has done what I just described, but (1) it already started out as the closest major Lisp to CL and (2) in decades of doing so, it only has some of CL.
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2020-10-08T10:38:44Z kreyren_: Xach, can i quote you in https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47 ?
2020-10-08T10:39:13Z Xach: sure
2020-10-08T10:40:12Z Xach: that page has a lot of errors
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2020-10-08T10:42:47Z kreyren_: Xach, typo will be checked prior to filing to upstream, trying to fix information errors as much as possible atm
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2020-10-08T10:43:37Z phoe: "Dialect of Common lisp" → "Implementation of Common Lisp"
2020-10-08T10:43:47Z phoe: Science CL does not exist
2020-10-08T10:43:53Z phoe: rlisp is not an implementation of Common Lisp
2020-10-08T10:44:10Z Xach: "LW" and "LispWorks" refer to the same thing
2020-10-08T10:44:19Z phoe: "possibly more.." does not need to be there - I think you've listed all relevant working implementations, maybe except for SICL which is a work-in-progress
2020-10-08T10:44:20Z Xach: "CCL" and "Clozure CL" also, probably
2020-10-08T10:44:30Z phoe: yes, CCL == Clozure CL
2020-10-08T10:44:56Z phoe: Quicklisp is not one file; the quicklisp.lisp file just downloads everything else from the Internet
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2020-10-08T10:45:30Z phoe: "to allow for an implementation-independant code" - that's not the goal of Quicklisp AFAIK, the goal is to make it easy to distribute and update Lisp code over the Internet
2020-10-08T10:45:32Z Xach: My name is not "Zack" and my username is not @xack
2020-10-08T10:45:57Z Xach: Being unaware of information is normal and fine - being sloppy with information is a little more irritating.
2020-10-08T10:46:55Z kreyren_ has dislexia so he does these typos often that's why is he letting them to be check by his friend before submitting them x.x
2020-10-08T10:46:58Z jackdaniel: Xack: you are damn right
2020-10-08T10:47:01Z kreyren_: sorry! resolving
2020-10-08T10:47:24Z Xach: at least it isn't mistaken as "Xah" or "Xarch"
2020-10-08T10:48:42Z kreyren_: sorry x.x
2020-10-08T10:49:14Z easye: Come to think of it, I've never seen Xach and Xah Lee in the same Emacs buffer...
2020-10-08T10:49:16Z kreyren_: hopefully adressed the mentioned issues, review appreciated https://github.com/Kreyren/kreyren/issues/47
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2020-10-08T10:49:24Z Xach: No problem - it only remains irritating when something inaccurate is left without correction, or worse, defended as accurate
2020-10-08T10:49:38Z kreyren_: agree
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2020-10-08T10:52:29Z kreyren_: added disclaimer in case there are things that i've misrepresented
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2020-10-08T11:27:29Z kreyren_: Is there any implementation-independent way to get quicklisp through the implementation?
2020-10-08T11:28:10Z kreyren_ can't find any on the github and he needs something that can be prepended in cargo-make created files in case quicklisp is not installed to avoid fatal failure
2020-10-08T11:28:41Z phoe: no, there is not
2020-10-08T11:28:41Z Xach: kreyren_: no
2020-10-08T11:29:29Z kreyren_: and it's apparently not possible to implement in implementation independant way right
2020-10-08T11:30:50Z Xach: I think it would be quite a challenge
2020-10-08T11:33:50Z kreyren_: So apparently i can't make easily a code in lisp that would download the file https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp, but if i package it with cargo-make then what's preventing me from prepending (load #p"~/path/to/quicklisp.lisp") ?
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2020-10-08T11:37:56Z phoe: nothing
2020-10-08T11:38:08Z phoe: other than the fact that you will need to manually install quicklisp then.
2020-10-08T11:38:21Z phoe: since this is just an installation script, not a full downloaded instance of quicklisp client.
2020-10-08T11:38:32Z kreyren_: i see x.x
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2020-10-08T11:48:37Z phoe: if anything, your cargo script could either configure quicklisp itself or somehow bundle a Lisp implementation along with its configured quicklisp client
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2020-10-08T11:51:09Z kreyren_: phoe, that's what i was thinking also, but i try to brainstorm it with upstream
2020-10-08T11:51:31Z kreyren_: would be nice if it could run some tests using these implementations also, but me hit burnout atm
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2020-10-08T11:56:43Z phoe: if anything, you could just depend on a preconfigured Quicklisp-capable Lisp implementation being available and leave configuring this to someone else.
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2020-10-08T12:18:29Z kreyren_: phoe, also yes, but that's meh
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2020-10-08T18:11:12Z jcowan: Language lawyer question: Does it actually break the ANS if an array does not havec O(1) access and mutation in the total-size of the array?  Or is that just something taken for granted?
2020-10-08T18:12:17Z Bike: i don't believe the standard specifies timing.
2020-10-08T18:12:56Z Bike: or even mentions constant time as desirable, in fact
2020-10-08T18:13:32Z Bike: the abstract description is pretty much just "An array contains objects arranged according to a Cartesian coordinate system."
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2020-10-08T18:20:11Z jcowan: Okay.  But I think a CL that required O(n) access/mutation would be seen as broken by actual users, or am I wrong?
2020-10-08T18:20:40Z jcowan: (Such a thing is essentially a list of pseudo-pairs on which RPLACD does not work.)
2020-10-08T18:20:59Z Bike: i probably wouldn't use it. maybe it would be necessary on some stupid computer architecture, though.
2020-10-08T18:21:33Z jcowan: Kind of the opposite of cdr-coding (I'm not sure why that idea lost popularity)
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2020-10-08T18:22:31Z Bike: doesn't it get weird if you allow mutation. or just shared tails.
2020-10-08T18:23:05Z Bike: also O times are kind of weird these days because the machine has like twelve layers of cache
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2020-10-08T18:25:54Z jcowan: Cdr-coding uses a 2-bit tag meaning (a) the cdr is in the next word, (b) the cdr *is* the next word (c) the cdr is nil.  If you know the length of the list you want to allocate, you can lay it out as if it were a vector.
2020-10-08T18:26:15Z jcowan: I suppose the answer is that space-saving is not so critical nowadays
2020-10-08T18:26:31Z Bike: also that means cdr branches, which i would count as weird
2020-10-08T18:27:10Z jcowan: vs the time and memory cost of invisible forwarding pointers.
2020-10-08T18:27:41Z jcowan: In the days of microcode, such pointers could be provided at a low level
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2020-10-08T18:30:09Z jcowan: Another possibility, not implemented AFAIK, is "cdr is in the previous word", which would handle construction by CONS as well as by LIST/MAKE-LIST
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2020-10-08T18:34:20Z ebrasca: I think you can store multiple values in one register
2020-10-08T18:34:43Z ebrasca: Like multiple 8 bit bytes in 64 byt byte register.
2020-10-08T18:35:11Z ebrasca: Or in ppc64le 128bit register.
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2020-10-08T18:46:23Z jcowan: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/lisp-faq/part2/section-9.html gives more details but is too old to say why it was abandoned.
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2020-10-08T19:09:26Z pve: Hello, could anyone tell me if these two class and metaclass definitions are equivalent?
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2020-10-08T19:09:29Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2074
2020-10-08T19:09:54Z pve: except that in the second case, foo-meta can't be found using find-class
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2020-10-08T19:12:07Z phoe: the latter has an anonymous superclass
2020-10-08T19:12:19Z phoe: anonymous, as in, not globally defined
2020-10-08T19:12:36Z phoe: uhh, sorry - anonymous metaclass
2020-10-08T19:12:57Z pve: yes, that's what I'm asking
2020-10-08T19:13:12Z pve: or rather, are they otherwise equivalent?
2020-10-08T19:14:06Z pve: i.e. I'd like for the metaclass to be anonymous
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2020-10-08T19:15:52Z pve: seems to work just fine in the REPL, but maybe I've overlooked something
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2020-10-08T19:23:41Z phoe: seems OK
2020-10-08T19:25:17Z Bike: i don't remember off the top of my head how things defaulted, e.g. whether you need to pass :direct-slots nil
2020-10-08T19:25:21Z Bike: mop ensure-class
2020-10-08T19:25:21Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ensure-class.html
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2020-10-08T19:25:53Z pve: Bike: oh, good point, I should add them
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2020-10-08T19:26:04Z Bike: "If the class metaobject is being initialized, this argument defaults to the empty list." don't need direct slots, i guess
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2020-10-08T19:26:55Z Bike: or direct-default-initargs, which is the other one in the example in chapter 5's "Initialization of Class Metaobjects"
2020-10-08T19:27:04Z pve: ok
2020-10-08T19:27:46Z Bike: also, you can set a class's name, so it might be easier to just use defclass and then unset the name
2020-10-08T19:27:54Z pve: right
2020-10-08T19:29:10Z pve: I'm reading the Smalltalk-80 bluebook, and it says that certain metaclasses don't have names, and can only be reached by sending the message "class" to a class. So I'm just checking if that's possible to emulate in CLOS.
2020-10-08T19:29:38Z Bike: yeah, there are explicit provisions for anonymous classes... but it might be kind of inconvenient to arrange.
2020-10-08T19:29:50Z pve: It seems it is possible, though not a critical feature by any means
2020-10-08T19:30:00Z pve: (in my case)
2020-10-08T19:30:24Z Bike: i don't think the MOP people considered it enough, really. Usually you go through ensure-class to make a class, but it sets the binding and stuff for you, so no good for anonymity
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2020-10-08T19:39:01Z pve: It's really cool how flexible CLOS/MOP is. I've now been able to make "class messages" work like they should using the metaclasses.
2020-10-08T19:40:26Z pve: Wonder if there is any overlap in the people who made CLOS and the people who made Smalltalk.. the concepts and terminology used are often very similar.
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2020-10-08T19:43:13Z Bike: it's not something i've looked into very much, but i think the CLOS predecessor Flavors was more closely based on smlltalk
2020-10-08T19:43:43Z Bike: has messages and stuff
2020-10-08T19:43:49Z Bike: and it was an influence on CLOS obviously
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2020-10-08T19:55:39Z jcowan: pve: AFAIK no Smalltalk metaclasses have names, although things like "Number class" are usually treated by humans as if they were names.
2020-10-08T19:55:53Z jcowan: (as well as being Smalltalk expressions)
2020-10-08T19:57:15Z jcowan: The two singularities of Smalltalk are that Object has no superclass and Metaclass class is Metaclass.
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2020-10-08T19:57:54Z jcowan: So you can say that Metaclass is the only metaclass with a name: it is the parent of Object class, and provides the point at which the metaclass tree connects to the object class tree.
2020-10-08T19:59:16Z pve: jcowan: yeah, I said "certain" because I wasn't a 100% sure
2020-10-08T20:00:35Z jcowan: Sorry, I misstated the singularity: it's the class of Metaclass class that is Metaclass, that is, Metaclass class class is Metaclass.
2020-10-08T20:01:13Z pve: jcowan: It's fine, I know what you meant.. I'm looking at the class diagram now
2020-10-08T20:01:46Z pve: jcowan: to my disappointment, I learned that I won't be able replicate the Metaclass class => Metaclass thing in CLOS
2020-10-08T20:01:49Z jcowan: So if you follow the isubclass-of chain from SmallInteger you get Integer > Number > Magnitude > Object, whereas if you follow the is-a chain from 5 you get 5 > SmallInteger > SmallInteger class > Metaclass > Metaclass class > Metaclass ...
2020-10-08T20:02:03Z pve: yep
2020-10-08T20:02:57Z Bike: you can't make your own parallel hierarchy, but standard-class's class's class is standard-class in a similar way
2020-10-08T20:03:28Z Bike: or, well, its class is itself
2020-10-08T20:03:48Z jcowan: not quite the same
2020-10-08T20:04:05Z pve: Bike: yeah, right now I just say Metaclass is a standard-class and hope for the best :)
2020-10-08T20:04:25Z jcowan: If you are concerned with your own classes only, you can of course make your own metaclass with its own magic.
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2020-10-08T20:09:32Z pve: jcowan: I've made a "Metaclass" class whose instances are "Object class" and other used-defined classes' metaclasses, and a "Class" class from which they inherit
2020-10-08T20:11:30Z jcowan nods.
2020-10-08T20:11:33Z jcowan: That's the ticket
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2020-10-08T20:13:12Z pve: not touching built-in stuff like numbers, packages etc, except by providing a set of methods that map more or less directly to CL functions, so that e.g. "1 + 1 :max 3" works like you'd expect.
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2020-10-08T20:14:40Z jcowan: I hope the use of keyword notation means you get to put your keywords in any order desired.  It's irritating that ST doesn't allow that.
2020-10-08T20:15:02Z pve: jcowan: sorry :)
2020-10-08T20:15:14Z pve: i try not to stray to far
2020-10-08T20:15:17Z jcowan: oh well
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2020-10-08T20:16:02Z pve: *too
2020-10-08T20:16:05Z jcowan: I think there are places in the image where bar:foo: methods are defined on top of foo:bar: methods.
2020-10-08T20:23:06Z pve: Personally, I'm not bothered by the fixed order of keywords
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2020-10-08T20:26:01Z jcowan: It's okay if there aren't too many or if the order makes sense.
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2020-10-08T22:54:01Z v3ga: So i'm rather new to common lisp and just recently getting into lower level web development. If I didn't want to use a CL web server couldn't I just use apache and then a CL routing library and it should work?
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2020-10-08T22:55:11Z v3ga: I'm not sure if I worded that correctly...
2020-10-08T22:55:40Z no-defun-allowed: Something like using Lisp as a CGI backend? I don't know if people still do that.
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2020-10-08T22:57:49Z no-defun-allowed: There is also mod_lisp on Apache and some other FastCGI libraries, but using a Lisp web server is probably better than the alternative.
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2020-10-08T22:58:11Z v3ga: no-defun-allowed: hmm...
2020-10-08T22:58:37Z v3ga: which would you recommend for dealing with a web app of sorts?
2020-10-08T22:59:37Z no-defun-allowed: I've only ever used Hunchentoot.
2020-10-08T23:00:08Z v3ga: no-defun-allowed: gotcha
2020-10-08T23:00:08Z no-defun-allowed: But I don't write web things unless strictly necessary, so that's probably not a good recommendation.
2020-10-08T23:02:45Z v3ga: no-defun-allowed: it seems to be the most popular..and clack. but then they go into security and other things that just aren't where i'd like them to be. Someone suggested I just throw it yp with nginx backing it...so now i'm looking for some conversation or articles or nginx/apache and common lisp
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2020-10-08T23:05:09Z v3ga: i'm also seeing people use node.js servers. Truthfully my concerns may be superfluous.
2020-10-08T23:06:01Z v3ga: I think i'm going to toy with 'ningle' and see what comes up.
2020-10-08T23:06:16Z White_Flame: if you want lower level web dev, just open a listening socket and go from there?
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2020-10-08T23:09:31Z v3ga: White_Flame: truthfully, i'm not sure anymore. I suppose i'm looking for something similar to jetty or kttpkit but not on the jvm
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2020-10-08T23:09:55Z v3ga: but also..i'm future proofing when I really may not need to.
2020-10-08T23:11:01Z v3ga: I don't know. Let me shut up for now...i'll come back to it when I have some valid issue or hurdle.
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2020-10-08T23:32:01Z v3ga: White_Flame: but what were you going to recommend IF I wanted to just deal with sockets?
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2020-10-09T00:47:26Z White_Flame: v3ga: usockets is the main portability lib for CL sockets
2020-10-09T00:48:03Z White_Flame: erm, usocket
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2020-10-09T03:18:08Z markasoftware: v3ga: definitely use Nginx in front of any cl web server
2020-10-09T03:19:05Z markasoftware: You need nginx as a reverse proxy...look up any tutorial for setting up nginx with node.js and it should work for a cl web server too
2020-10-09T03:19:33Z markasoftware: It just makes it a lot easier to configure site wide headers, set up SSL, redirects, etc
2020-10-09T03:20:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-09T03:21:16Z zacts: hello
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2020-10-09T04:43:29Z v3ga: White_Flame: gotcha, thanks. =P
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2020-10-09T05:39:10Z sukaeto: v3ga: ningle has pretty good FastCGI support
2020-10-09T05:41:21Z sukaeto: I've used it (via caveman) in production, with a few FastCGI instances sitting behind nginx
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2020-10-09T09:03:30Z pve: Hi! In a call to a function, such as (make-foo :a 1 :b 2), is it correct to call the ":a 1 :b 2" part (including the keywords) the "arguments"?
2020-10-09T09:03:45Z pve: and "1" and "2" the "parameters"?
2020-10-09T09:04:00Z pve: sorry if this is too elementary
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2020-10-09T09:11:28Z phoe: these are commonly called keyword parameters
2020-10-09T09:12:49Z phoe: the CLHS also calls them that way
2020-10-09T09:13:06Z phoe: as in, everything after &key is keyword parameters, except for any &allow-other-keys
2020-10-09T09:13:17Z beach: phoe: But these are the argument.
2020-10-09T09:13:24Z beach: Not the parameters.
2020-10-09T09:13:32Z beach: It's a call, not a definition.
2020-10-09T09:14:30Z phoe: oh! sorry
2020-10-09T09:14:45Z phoe re-reads 3.4.1.4
2020-10-09T09:16:42Z beach: pve: I think "keyword arguments" is fine.  If you want to be more specific, you could say "keyword-argument pairs".
2020-10-09T09:17:09Z beach: pve: Notice, however, that you can't tell from a call whether they are keyword arguments.
2020-10-09T09:17:37Z beach: pve: For example: (list :a 1 :b 2) is a fine call, but they are not keyword arguments.
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2020-10-09T09:18:18Z pve: beach: great, thanks
2020-10-09T09:18:23Z pve: phoe: ^
2020-10-09T09:18:23Z beach: pve: Conversely, in something like (bla 'a 1 'b 2) they can very well be keyword arguments.
2020-10-09T09:19:50Z pve: beach: in (list :a 1 :b 2) they're just "arguments"?
2020-10-09T09:20:08Z beach: Yeah.
2020-10-09T09:20:15Z pve: ok, thank you
2020-10-09T09:20:54Z beach: Also try (defun f (x &key ((a y))) (list x y)) then (f 234 'a 33)
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2020-10-09T09:22:00Z no-defun-allowed: One too many parens around (a y)?
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2020-10-09T09:22:29Z beach: I don't think so.  Did I do it wrong?
2020-10-09T09:22:40Z no-defun-allowed: Well, that works -- I haven't seen that before.
2020-10-09T09:22:45Z beach: (a y) would be the variable a with a default value of y.
2020-10-09T09:22:54Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed.
2020-10-09T09:23:10Z beach: This means the variable y to be recognized by the keyword a.
2020-10-09T09:23:56Z beach: The glossary entry for "parameter" distinguishes between "parameter" and "argument".
2020-10-09T09:25:08Z pve: beach: hmm, I think I need to read the spec for that one.. my first reaction was also, "looks like one pair of parens too many"
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2020-10-09T09:27:45Z pve: beach: ok, I think I understand now
2020-10-09T09:29:37Z pve: it's a way to have a keyword parameter that is not given with a keyword symbol
2020-10-09T09:30:37Z scymtym: it could still be a keyword but not the default one derived from the variable name
2020-10-09T09:30:49Z pve: right
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2020-10-09T09:32:01Z beach: no-defun-allowed: You haven't seen it because you haven't attempted to implement lambda-list parsing. :)
2020-10-09T09:32:04Z pve: and reading the above again, beach did say it, but I just couldn't parse it
2020-10-09T09:32:05Z scymtym: which is probably the more common use-case because it let's you chose the keyword parameter name in a way that maintains the "external interface" but bind the passed argument to an unrelatedly named variable
2020-10-09T09:32:42Z no-defun-allowed: beach: That is quite possible :)
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2020-10-09T09:46:23Z _death: one use for it is to bind to a special variable without an explicit let
2020-10-09T09:48:43Z _death: another is for CL names that can't be bound
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2020-10-09T10:06:20Z radiohead_fan: has anybody ever worked with cl-tcod?
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2020-10-09T10:12:37Z Xach: radiohead_fan: i have worked to get it to build on my system, but never actually used it
2020-10-09T10:19:23Z radiohead_fan: damn.... i need help with using it
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2020-10-09T11:04:18Z no-defun-allowed: radiohead_fan: Do you really like True Stories that much? I thought it was generally considered to be Talking Heads' worst album.
2020-10-09T11:04:18Z no-defun-allowed: Joking aside, what's it do? It looks like you use it to make roguelike games.
2020-10-09T11:04:50Z radiohead_fan: yeah its for roguelikes
2020-10-09T11:05:05Z radiohead_fan: wanted to make a very small roguelike for this halloween
2020-10-09T11:05:28Z no-defun-allowed: I see.
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2020-10-09T11:11:29Z radiohead_fan: everything was going fine but when i was coding the part of the key input i found no way of making a key exit and close the window, ive even tried other methods (from various tutorials) and they just dont seem to work
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2020-10-09T16:48:10Z VincentVega: guys, any way to extract a range of bits from a fixnum?
2020-10-09T16:49:41Z beach: clhs ldb
2020-10-09T16:49:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb.htm
2020-10-09T16:50:05Z beach: And it doesn't have to be a fixnum.
2020-10-09T16:50:13Z VincentVega: great, thank you
2020-10-09T16:50:20Z beach: Anytime.
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2020-10-10T01:27:46Z iissaacc: say i have an object containing a foreign pointer and i want to free it when the object is GC'd
2020-10-10T01:29:39Z iissaacc: if i do (defmethod sb-ext:finalize (obj some-class) (lambda () (free (foo-accessor object)))
2020-10-10T01:30:15Z iissaacc: from what i understand, this won't work because the finaliser refers to the object so neither of them will be GC'd
2020-10-10T01:30:39Z iissaacc: what is the correct way to do this? Hard to find examples
2020-10-10T01:31:08Z iissaacc: even a pointer (lmao) to some code where this is done would be helpful
2020-10-10T01:31:46Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think that's how FINALIZE works; here it's a non-generic function that takes an object, a finalizer function, and some other stuff.
2020-10-10T01:31:47Z White_Flame: there's an example in the sbcl manual: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Finalization
2020-10-10T01:32:07Z White_Flame: the lambda holds a closure over the foreign pointer, not the object holding it
2020-10-10T01:32:49Z White_Flame: and yeah, you don't define a finalizer per class of object, but on each individual instance
2020-10-10T01:32:54Z no-defun-allowed: Supposing you had a standard-instance, you could do (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((object class) &key) (let ((handle the-handle)) (sb-ext:finalize object (lambda () (release handle)))))
2020-10-10T01:38:23Z iissaacc: right
2020-10-10T01:38:47Z iissaacc: I was just confused about the handle itself but i get the idea now. the handle is the pointer
2020-10-10T01:39:02Z iissaacc: thanks!
2020-10-10T01:39:18Z White_Flame: np
2020-10-10T01:47:51Z iissaacc: so i could do an :after initialize-instance method on my class and put the pointer creation and finalize stuff in there i guess
2020-10-10T01:48:45Z iissaacc: ah lol ignore that. just read the whole of no-defun-allowed's message
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2020-10-10T01:51:47Z no-defun-allowed: But you should probably use trivial-garbage to finalize; which has the same interface but is portable.
2020-10-10T01:53:27Z iissaacc: aha yes i just discovered that via google
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2020-10-10T01:54:11Z iissaacc: shot (bro/sis)
2020-10-10T01:57:03Z iissaacc: another noob question - im rewriting some code from a library. I was redefining the functions like (defun library:function (my changes))
2020-10-10T01:57:33Z iissaacc: but this is probably a bad idea right? since it would change those functions for any code u have loaded in your image that uses them
2020-10-10T01:58:32Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, that is usually a bad idea, but if it's not possible to extend, you could get away with modifying it in a way that preserves the original behaviour.
2020-10-10T01:59:53Z no-defun-allowed: Or you probably should just have a modified copy of the original implementation in your packages.
2020-10-10T02:01:50Z iissaacc: ok i shall change it
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2020-10-10T03:08:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-10T06:04:18Z saganman: Morning beach
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2020-10-10T07:44:06Z bhartrihari: Is there any CL code to read on the Internet that uses the series library for iteration?
2020-10-10T07:54:00Z heisig: (ql:who-depends-on "series") => ("folio2" "folio2-sequences" "folio2-series" "periods-series" "series-tests")
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2020-10-10T07:59:22Z afidegnum: hi, i'm tryinb to build a 2d graphics made of graphs, but i would like to save the outpout of those graphs in json. what CL library do you suggest ?
2020-10-10T08:00:57Z bhartrihari: heisig: Thank you.
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2020-10-10T08:01:45Z ldb: good afternoon
2020-10-10T08:02:49Z aeth: Interesting, I can't do ql:who-depends-on because org.borodust.bodge is 404ing and I can't temporarily remove org.borodust.bodge because if I do (ql:uninstall-dist "org.borodust.bodge") it also gets "Unexpected HTTP status for #<URL "http://bodge.borodust.org/dist/org.borodust.bodge/20200928222503/releases.txt">: 404"
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2020-10-10T08:03:20Z aeth: It looks like the current is http://bodge.borodust.org/dist/org.borodust.bodge/20201008075703/ but I can't ql:update-all-dists because org.borodust.bodge is 404ing.
2020-10-10T08:04:18Z afidegnum: any insight ?
2020-10-10T08:04:39Z phoe: afidegnum: there's a few choices, one second
2020-10-10T08:05:23Z ldb: afidegnum: json-streams can be a candidate for your purpose
2020-10-10T08:05:27Z phoe: https://phmarek.github.io/yason/ possibly
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2020-10-10T08:06:40Z afidegnum: ok thanks,
2020-10-10T08:07:17Z aeth: (I can just get rid of the dist's directory and everything seems to work, but it's weird that Quicklisp itself has no way to recover internally from this.)
2020-10-10T08:07:55Z afidegnum: for the 2d graphics, with parents/child shapes, clickable event .....
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2020-10-10T08:12:30Z afidegnum: what's your suggestion for the graphics ?
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2020-10-10T08:23:07Z beach: afidegnum: McCLIM, obviously.
2020-10-10T08:23:47Z afidegnum: beach: does McCLIM offers 2d graphics? the last time i checked, it offers just the GUI
2020-10-10T08:24:25Z beach: You must have checked sometime during the 20th century.
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2020-10-10T08:24:33Z afidegnum: :)
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2020-10-10T09:13:27Z saganman: seems like there is no such a thing as function in lisp
2020-10-10T09:13:38Z saganman: I was going through debugger
2020-10-10T09:13:45Z beach: What?
2020-10-10T09:13:51Z saganman: defun defines a macro
2020-10-10T09:13:56Z beach: No.
2020-10-10T09:13:57Z saganman: it is a macro
2020-10-10T09:14:00Z beach: Defun IS a macro.
2020-10-10T09:14:14Z saganman: oh
2020-10-10T09:14:26Z beach: When a DEFUN form is evaluated, it defines a function.
2020-10-10T09:14:58Z beach: But DEFUN is a macro that essentially does (setf (fdefinition <name>) (lambda (...) ...))
2020-10-10T09:15:09Z beach: So LAMBDA is the function constructor.
2020-10-10T09:17:50Z heisig: LAMBDA is a macro, too :)
2020-10-10T09:18:09Z heisig: If anything, FUNCTION is the function constructor.
2020-10-10T09:18:13Z beach: Why did I just *know* that someone would say that.
2020-10-10T09:18:43Z beach: Not quite.  (FUNCTION F) does not construct anything.
2020-10-10T09:19:01Z beach: So if you want to be picky, (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ...)) is the function constructor.
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2020-10-10T09:19:16Z heisig: :D
2020-10-10T09:20:32Z saganman: "defun implicitly puts a block named block-name around the body forms (but not the forms in the lambda-list) of the function defined."
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2020-10-10T09:21:00Z beach: Sounds right.
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2020-10-10T09:25:51Z saganman: ah, I misunderstood
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2020-10-10T09:26:00Z saganman: it is kind of tricky
2020-10-10T09:28:22Z saganman: it is easy to misunderstand to have a macro that defines a function which is only evaluated?/compiled? only when the said function appears in the code
2020-10-10T09:28:46Z saganman: to a dumb guy like me, it seems like macro
2020-10-10T09:28:47Z beach: saganman: So that phrase means that if you type (DEFUN FF (X) (1+ X)), the macro expands to something like (SETF (FDEFINITION 'FF) (LAMBDA (X) (BLOCK FF (1+ X)))), so that you can say (RETURN-FROM FF ...) in the function body.
2020-10-10T09:29:20Z saganman: beach: oh, I see
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2020-10-10T09:29:37Z saganman: beach: now I see it clearly
2020-10-10T09:30:28Z saganman: beach: your explanation is better than clhs
2020-10-10T09:31:00Z beach: The Common Lisp HyperSpec is not meant for users.  It is a document for people creating Common Lisp implementations.
2020-10-10T09:32:00Z beach: There are several ways in which a function defined by DEFUN can come into existence.  You can type the DEFUN form at the REPL, in which case EVAL is called to evaluate the form.
2020-10-10T09:32:23Z beach: You can LOAD a file containing the DEFUN form.  Again, EVAL is called.
2020-10-10T09:32:52Z beach: You can first compile a file containing the form (that won't create the function), and then load the compiled file.
2020-10-10T09:32:57Z saganman: yeah, I have been doing that
2020-10-10T09:33:27Z saganman: I have been writing functions on one side, C-c C-c and use them in slime
2020-10-10T09:33:33Z beach: I was trying to elaborate on your remarks on how easy it is to misunderstand.
2020-10-10T09:34:15Z saganman: oh okay
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2020-10-10T10:23:09Z met`: In CL, is it necessary to user :accessor for a class slot to modify the contents internal to the data structure at the slot? E.g. if the slot contains a list, and I want to set/add/remove a value in the list, would :reader be sufficient (I'm not changing the thing that is stored in the slot, just its contents)?
2020-10-10T10:25:39Z _death: if the slot contains (list 'x) and you remove x, then you are changing the slot's contents, as it would become nil
2020-10-10T10:25:43Z beach: met`: Well, a list is a bad example.
2020-10-10T10:25:47Z no-defun-allowed: Generally, no, but "modifying" lists usually requires you to modify the place they reside in.
2020-10-10T10:26:21Z met`: Ah right, since the "list" is just the top cons cell, right?
2020-10-10T10:26:24Z no-defun-allowed: If it was another standard-instance or a vector, then it'd be doable, as those are modified by modifying values in those objects.
2020-10-10T10:26:48Z beach: met`: So if you modify only the elements of the list, and not its CONS cells, you are fine.
2020-10-10T10:26:49Z _death: you can always change slots directly by using (setf slot-value)
2020-10-10T10:26:51Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, or NIL, which can't be modified at all.
2020-10-10T10:27:14Z met`: OK. But in the case of an array or hash-table it should be fine?
2020-10-10T10:27:21Z beach: yes.
2020-10-10T10:27:44Z met`: Thank you all.
2020-10-10T10:27:52Z beach: Anytime.
2020-10-10T10:28:08Z no-defun-allowed: No problem.
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2020-10-10T10:30:09Z _death: for vectors, it's the same story, unless you make sure you modify them in place (and perhaps make them adjustable)
2020-10-10T10:31:20Z met`: Can someone offer some perspective on how to think about "references vs values" in CL? From other languages I'm used to pointers for reference types (mostly) and other things being treated as values, and copied when e.g. passed as a function parameter. From reading some chapters in Practical Common Lisp I understood it as "everything is an object" in CL, which I guess would mean everything is treated as a reference?
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2020-10-10T10:32:08Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, every object is one reference away in Common Lisp (and AFAICT, most other Lisp languages).
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2020-10-10T10:32:34Z _death: Lisp is pass by value.. sometimes the values are references
2020-10-10T10:33:18Z met`: So how can I determine that the thing I'm passing is passed as a reference?
2020-10-10T10:33:58Z beach: met`: Assume it always is.
2020-10-10T10:34:13Z beach: met`: That's the semantic model.
2020-10-10T10:36:03Z beach: met`: The phrase "call by value" does not talk about the nature of the objects passed to a function.  It only means that the arguments are evaluated before the function is applied.
2020-10-10T10:36:17Z beach: met`: So the values are references in Common Lisp.
2020-10-10T10:36:46Z _death: beach is right.. fixnums and characters for example may be copied (and hence may not be EQ to each other) but otherwise you can assume all values passed are references
2020-10-10T10:36:46Z met`: That makes sense.
2020-10-10T10:36:59Z met`: Thanks!
2020-10-10T10:37:16Z beach: met`: Also, "everything is an object" is an often repeated phrase, except that it is not true.
2020-10-10T10:37:32Z no-defun-allowed: Depending on who you ask, objects can be passed by value, like in C++, so that's not exactly equivalent; but it suffices to say nothing is copied in a way that you could observe it being copied (except for some things being tested with EQ).
2020-10-10T10:37:32Z beach: met`: A comment is not an object.  A place is not an object.
2020-10-10T10:39:35Z aeth: met`: My thoughts on this is that nearly every object is a reference, it's just that immutable, optimizable things that can fit within a machine word (especially fixnums, but also probably characters, single-floats, etc.) are probably optimized away from actually being something like pointers internally. But this isn't visible to you directly, or you couldn't do that.
2020-10-10T10:39:36Z beach: met`: What I call "uniform reference semantics" is the only sane way of programming.  Languages that distinguish between pointers and non-pointers quickly become way too complicated for application programming.
2020-10-10T10:40:43Z met`: In my case I want some object whose (read-only) state is shared between several implementers of another class, in a slot of that class. Would it then be enough to set the value of that slot in those class implementers to be the object whose state I want to be shared?
2020-10-10T10:40:59Z no-defun-allowed: My guess is C++ and Perl are the only frequently used "object oriented" languages that (can) pass by value.
2020-10-10T10:41:25Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Please don't use "pass by value" that way.  It is not what the term means.
2020-10-10T10:41:29Z _death: no-defun-allowed: Lisp is pass by value!
2020-10-10T10:41:34Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, if you set them to the same object, they'll reference the same object; but I'm not sure what you mean by "implementers of another class".
2020-10-10T10:42:19Z no-defun-allowed: Right, I'll go revise what those words mean.
2020-10-10T10:42:21Z phoe: "pass by value" is a misnomer, should be "pass by copy"
2020-10-10T10:42:31Z kinope: Something that tripped me up  until I 'got' it was that if you want to mutate a list of objects by destructively replacing a single element you need to target the `car` of the cons cell that contains the element as it is the cons cell that contains the reference to that object and the reference to the rest of the list.
2020-10-10T10:42:47Z phoe: in C++, passing by value means that you copy a thing and then pass it to a function - and you need to define what copying that thing means
2020-10-10T10:43:27Z aeth: It also means that for things around the boundary of copying vs. referencing, you can fall into the attitude of trying to microoptimize which to use
2020-10-10T10:43:29Z phoe: in CL, passing by value/reference/whatever means that you pass literally the same object - except the implementation is allowed to optimize for fixnums and characters and copy'em over
2020-10-10T10:43:55Z beach: phoe: Then they use it in a way that is not the widely agreed-upon meaning.
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2020-10-10T10:44:31Z phoe: beach: sadly, the C++ people are the ones who define what is the widely agreed-upon meaning
2020-10-10T10:44:46Z beach: Though I guess "pass by value" could be distinct from "call by value".
2020-10-10T10:44:55Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, looking up "pass by value" really only provides phoe's definition.
2020-10-10T10:45:00Z aeth: phoe: Not fixnums and characters. Numbers and characters. Various floating point types might count (especially short-float) and in theory there probably could be a "fixnum" of rationals that semantically could be made to fit in CL, it's just that no one bothers... unless I'm mistaken.
2020-10-10T10:45:01Z beach: phoe: Oh, that would be very sad indeed.
2020-10-10T10:45:52Z beach: no-defun-allowed: So then "pass by value" is different from "call by value".  That's terrible.
2020-10-10T10:46:06Z phoe: aeth: that's what I meant by the implementation being allowed to optimize
2020-10-10T10:46:21Z met`: no-defun-allowed: I mean that the object I want shared is of some class A, and there is another class B with a slot to store a reference to an object of class A as read-only. Then each subclass of class B will store the shared object in the slot from the superclass and implement a method which operates on the state stored in the object of class A. Maybe there is a simpler way to achieve this...
2020-10-10T10:46:24Z phoe: that's in the cases where the objects are immutable so it's impossible to mutate one of them and observe the change elsewhere
2020-10-10T10:46:38Z _death: pass by value means that values are copied.. in this case the values are references to objects, so (defun swap (x y) (rotatef x y)) won't have an outside effect because the references are local, i.e. only the local bindings are modified
2020-10-10T10:47:30Z phoe: met`: (defclass a () ()) (defclass b () ((a :initarg :a :reader a))) (defvar *my-b* (make-instance 'b :a (make-instance 'a)))
2020-10-10T10:47:36Z phoe: does this work?
2020-10-10T10:47:57Z phoe: this doesn't really take sharedness into account
2020-10-10T10:47:58Z met`: phoe: Yeah that was what I was thinking of doing.
2020-10-10T10:48:24Z met`: Or actually no
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2020-10-10T10:48:27Z phoe: if you want a slot with a single shared value for all subclasses, :allocation :class on the slot is the way to go
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2020-10-10T10:48:38Z no-defun-allowed: Eugh, okay. In C++, not copying an object that is the argument of a function is arguably the exceptional case, as you have to put a & after a parameter type to get "a reference". And I think I misread about Perl; they have a "call by value" definition in their glossary, but there isn't a mechanism to achieve that.
2020-10-10T10:48:41Z phoe: (unless some subclass overrides the slot definition, at which point, they wanted it)
2020-10-10T10:49:27Z met`: phoe: Oh that's what I was looking for!
2020-10-10T10:49:46Z phoe: awesome
2020-10-10T10:50:18Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I recently got into a mess with a Java programmer, who had a different definition of "late binding" (which would probably be called dynamic dispatch elsewhere).
2020-10-10T10:50:32Z met`: phoe: So in that case I can store an object of the superclass, modify it, and see the changes reflected in each subclass?
2020-10-10T10:51:27Z phoe: actually the object will be stored when you create the instance
2020-10-10T10:51:30Z phoe: see :a (make-instance 'a)
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2020-10-10T10:53:42Z met`: So let's say I have 2 slots, a list and a hash table, in the superclass with :allocation :class. Can I update those slots and see the changes reflected in the subclasses as well?
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2020-10-10T10:53:49Z kinope: met`: I think you could construct a cons cell with the object like (cons obj nil) then store the cons cell in the slot for each class you access the obj via (car (slot-value ...)) and can change the object via (setf (car (slot-value ...)))
2020-10-10T10:54:09Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I see.  It is sad when people arbitrarily redefine established terminology.
2020-10-10T10:54:12Z phoe: met`: yes, that's the idea of class-allocated slots
2020-10-10T10:54:24Z phoe: update once, see the change everywhere
2020-10-10T10:54:54Z met`: OK, excellent. This should make things a lot simpler.
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2020-10-10T10:59:23Z _death: met: it will be the same as long as the subclasses don't say otherwise, e.g. by supplying a different initform or making the allocation :instance
2020-10-10T10:59:57Z phoe: but then the class in question will be explicly asking for it, so, it's not the problem of the parent
2020-10-10T11:00:18Z _death: phoe: right, it's just a nice feature to be aware of
2020-10-10T11:03:28Z met`: Makes sense. Thanks again to everyone.
2020-10-10T11:15:29Z pve: beach: Not sure if you mentioned it, but what *is* the definition of "call by value"?
2020-10-10T11:16:09Z pve: Oh, you did say, I see it now.. nevermind :)
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2020-10-10T11:33:12Z Lycurgus: peccavi for replying to the new user the other day that defun didn return anything, at most i should have linked the hyperspec
2020-10-10T11:33:42Z Lycurgus: deserves comment because it makes me look stupid in re fp generally
2020-10-10T11:33:58Z Lycurgus: and this isn't a good place for idle chat
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2020-10-10T12:11:43Z decentyousername: In "Practical Common Lisp" chapter 20, Peter says the following in regards to multiple values: "The mechanism by which multiple values are returned is implementation dependent just like the mechanism for passing arguments into functions is. Almost all language constructs that return the value of some subform will "pass through" multple values, returning all the values returned by the subform. Thus, a function that returns the r
2020-10-10T12:11:44Z decentyousername: calling VALUES or VALUES-LIST will itself return multiple values-and so will another function whose result comes from calling the first function And so on."
2020-10-10T12:12:07Z decentyousername: I've read that section ten times and still don't understand what he means.
2020-10-10T12:12:14Z decentyousername: or what he's trying to explain.
2020-10-10T12:12:18Z phoe: (defun foo () (values 1 2 3))
2020-10-10T12:12:24Z phoe: (foo) ;=> 1 2 3
2020-10-10T12:12:28Z phoe: (defun bar () (foo))
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2020-10-10T12:12:33Z phoe: (bar) ;=> 1 2 3
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2020-10-10T12:14:57Z decentyousername: "Thus, a function that returns the result of calling VALUES and VALUES-LIST will itself return multple values and so will another function whose result comes from calling the first function and so on."
2020-10-10T12:15:04Z decentyousername: That's the part I don't get.
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2020-10-10T12:15:42Z phoe: this is the part that I explained
2020-10-10T12:15:43Z decentyousername: I've understood the part that almost all forms will return multiple values if the last form returns multiple values.
2020-10-10T12:16:08Z phoe: if FOO returns multiple values, then BAR will also return multiple values because its result comes from calling FOO
2020-10-10T12:16:16Z decentyousername: oh
2020-10-10T12:16:19Z decentyousername: thanks
2020-10-10T12:16:37Z decentyousername: phoe, you're my hero. :)
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2020-10-10T12:17:08Z phoe: decentyousername: pleasure
2020-10-10T12:17:13Z decentyousername: The book should've put that example in there.
2020-10-10T12:17:23Z decentyousername: Maybe I'm just weird for not getting it.
2020-10-10T12:17:32Z phoe: don't worry about it
2020-10-10T12:17:52Z phoe: there's tons of things that sometimes require a different/good example in order to click
2020-10-10T12:18:14Z phoe: I get the same kind of mental reactions when trying to understand stuff
2020-10-10T12:18:28Z decentyousername: That's why I like the OpenBSD man pages, they often have great examples, which explain a lot more than ten paragraphs of text.
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2020-10-10T14:11:55Z Xach: I'm starting to think that the things that are broken today won't be fixed any time soon
2020-10-10T14:12:10Z Xach: (Maybe I'm attaching too much significance to no response to bug reports)
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2020-10-10T14:14:28Z Lycurgus: do you know of any other package that uses the gbbopen module system?
2020-10-10T14:16:01Z Lycurgus: (and i'd have thought with so many pkgs you would just arbitrate/cut off at will)
2020-10-10T14:20:37Z phoe: Xach: which things?
2020-10-10T14:22:42Z decentyousername: Are we talking about libraries in quicklisp?
2020-10-10T14:22:47Z decentyousername: O . o
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2020-10-10T14:46:54Z phoe: you mean the recent SBCL typing breakage?
2020-10-10T14:47:09Z phoe: s/breakage/warning on non-conforming code/
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2020-10-10T16:57:41Z Xach: phoe: yeah
2020-10-10T17:02:18Z phoe: how many PRs were accepted and how many were not?
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2020-10-10T18:17:29Z mseddon: oh, is it not just me then? does anyone have links to opened issues on SBCL type nonsense that's appeared recently?
2020-10-10T18:18:16Z mseddon: (and perhaps it is just previously un-noticed nonsense that I was in a bad habit of, phoe?)
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2020-10-10T18:22:10Z Xach: phoe: I haven't seen many PRs at all
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2020-10-10T18:24:54Z phoe: oh! I meant issues
2020-10-10T18:24:58Z phoe: I remember you making those
2020-10-10T18:25:04Z phoe: what are the stats?
2020-10-10T18:25:16Z phoe: mseddon: it's actually sense, just people were doing sloppy coding
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2020-10-10T18:36:37Z mseddon: phoe: yeah, I didn't think it was SBCL, I thought I had suddenly become more stupid.
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2020-10-10T18:38:20Z Xach: phoe: hmm, not sure. i think i made 20 or 30. maybe 5 or so closed. not 100% sure.
2020-10-10T18:38:28Z Xach: (i can/should write a program to do that for me...)
2020-10-10T18:39:16Z phantomics: question: I often write loops like this: (loop :for x :in some-list :counting x :into xcount :do ...)
2020-10-10T18:39:17Z terpri_ is now known as terpri
2020-10-10T18:39:40Z phantomics: The xcount starts at 1 instead of 0, which can be annoying, is there an expedient way to make it start from 0?
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2020-10-10T18:40:20Z phantomics: Rather than writing something like (let ((xcount (1- xcount)) ...) inside the loop
2020-10-10T18:41:54Z Xach: phantomics: i'd like to help but don't really understand the question, sorry. what do you expect back from something like (loop :for x :in nil ...)?
2020-10-10T18:42:06Z Xach: or (loop :for x :in '(42) ...)?
2020-10-10T18:42:29Z phantomics: I want the xcount variable to start from 0 instead of 1
2020-10-10T18:42:57Z mseddon: phantomics: loop from?
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2020-10-10T18:43:40Z Xach: phantomics: that doesn't help me understand - what do you expect from my examples?
2020-10-10T18:43:42Z phantomics: Loop from works, but then if I want to loop over a list I have to use the :for variable to index from the list
2020-10-10T18:43:52Z mseddon: oh, right sorry. I get it, you want to :counting into xcount, but with xcount = 1 at the start of the loop?
2020-10-10T18:44:04Z phantomics: With xcount = 0 at the start of the loop
2020-10-10T18:44:43Z Xach: phantomics: what does the full loop form look like? you can have multiple independent iterations going
2020-10-10T18:44:52Z phantomics: Xach: what I'm asking is if there's a way to have a loop over a list or array, while counting into a variable that starts from 0 instead of 1
2020-10-10T18:45:26Z jackdaniel: i.e if there are five elements, to return four?
2020-10-10T18:45:29Z Xach: phantomics: right - that's not clear enough for me. i guess i will stop trying to understand. good luck!
2020-10-10T18:45:29Z pve: phantomics: does it really start from 1?
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2020-10-10T18:46:00Z mseddon: yeah the starting from 1 shouldn't happen.... xcount WILL start from 0.
2020-10-10T18:46:21Z mseddon: and for whatever reason, can't you subtract 1 at the end to fix it? :D
2020-10-10T18:46:23Z phoe: I usually do (loop for i from 0 for x in ...)
2020-10-10T18:46:27Z phoe: if that is what you want
2020-10-10T18:46:28Z phantomics: Here's a simple example: (loop :for x :across array1 :counting x :into acount :do (setf (aref array2 (1- acount)) x))
2020-10-10T18:47:12Z phantomics: See how I need to subtract 1 from the acount in order to assign the element in the array I'm looping over to the corresponding position in the other array
2020-10-10T18:47:39Z jackdaniel: phantomics: (loop for x across array for ref from 1 do (setf (aref array2 ref) whatever))
2020-10-10T18:47:49Z jackdaniel: counting is meant for something else
2020-10-10T18:47:55Z phantomics: phoe, that works, thanks
2020-10-10T18:48:05Z jackdaniel: s/from 1/from 0/
2020-10-10T18:48:19Z jackdaniel: ah, I've repeated what phoe said above
2020-10-10T18:48:22Z jackdaniel: nvm me then
2020-10-10T18:48:40Z phantomics: I'd forgotten I could loop starting from a number with no end point and also loop over another finite structure
2020-10-10T18:49:17Z phantomics: Appreciate it
2020-10-10T18:49:31Z mseddon: don't loop. iterate!
2020-10-10T18:50:02Z mseddon: loop is a magnificent non-extensible arcane mess.
2020-10-10T18:50:58Z pve: phantomics: but still, :counting did not do what you think it did.. i.e. what you were trying to do cannot be done with :counting
2020-10-10T18:51:13Z pve: if I understood you correctly
2020-10-10T18:51:26Z mseddon: yeah. It can't.
2020-10-10T18:51:36Z mseddon: wrong random loop keyword for the job.
2020-10-10T18:52:17Z mseddon: phantomics: https://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/
2020-10-10T18:52:36Z phantomics: I've seen iterate, thought it wasn't maintained anymore
2020-10-10T18:52:56Z mseddon: It hasn't been touched since like 1994 or something
2020-10-10T18:53:02Z mseddon: doesn't need to be. you can extend it.
2020-10-10T18:53:03Z pve: or, I guess if every x is non-nil, then it would actually work, but require the -1
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2020-10-10T18:53:27Z phantomics: Yeah, that was the problem, having to subtract 1
2020-10-10T18:53:30Z mseddon: like a lot of lisp libraries, it just.. stopped getting bug reports, so it's stable now
2020-10-10T18:55:23Z mseddon: but people still use it. if the users of that lib had an issue they'd get together, resurrect it, and fix it. Lisp operates on a rather longer timescale than other software.
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2020-10-10T22:30:17Z aeth: eh, if it's something like iterate, then not being touched since 1994 is a bit concerning
2020-10-10T22:30:27Z aeth: there's always room for optimizations, unless the extensibility prevents optimizations
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2020-10-10T23:54:58Z drmeister: Using Common Lisp to interactively manipulate the shape of a molecule.
2020-10-10T23:55:05Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/hHZNZUho/twister.mov
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2020-10-10T23:59:34Z moon-child: drmeister: neat!
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2020-10-11T03:58:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-11T10:19:36Z radiohead_fan: is there any good lisp game engine that has good documentation?
2020-10-11T10:24:02Z beach: You may want to check in #lispgames.
2020-10-11T10:24:09Z radiohead_fan: oh ok thank
2020-10-11T10:24:12Z beach: At least I think that's the dedicated channel.
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2020-10-11T13:24:19Z mseddon: drmeister: very cool!
2020-10-11T13:25:49Z pxpxp: How
2020-10-11T13:28:02Z pxpxp: How would you go about efficiently comparing the contents of 2 files? (determining whether they have the same content) I could use with-open-file and then compare the read-byte but there may be a better way
2020-10-11T13:28:29Z beach: Either way, you need to access each byte.
2020-10-11T13:28:29Z Xach: pxpxp: that way is fine. it is probably faster to use read-sequence to read more at a time.
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2020-10-11T13:34:07Z Xach: i wonder if there is an opportunity to do MISMATCH on multiple octets at a time if the vectors are known to be octet vectors.
2020-10-11T13:34:16Z Xach: word-at-a-time or more
2020-10-11T13:34:49Z phoe: non-standard functionality ahead: if the files are large, I'd mmap them both and then compare raw memory
2020-10-11T13:35:07Z phoe: but I'd actually need to benchmark to tell you if this option is going to be faster than read-sequence with a buffer
2020-10-11T13:35:57Z Xach: you also have to decide if the greater complexity is worth it
2020-10-11T13:36:07Z phoe: yes
2020-10-11T13:36:30Z Xach: it can be pretty fine to just do it a byte at a time with read-byte
2020-10-11T13:36:41Z Xach: that's pretty simple and might be fast enough for your case
2020-10-11T13:38:39Z pxpxp: thanks! But anyway there's no built-in function to compare streams, like (equal list1 list2) but for streams, right? I was hoping for something like this
2020-10-11T13:39:07Z beach: What if the stream is infinite?
2020-10-11T13:39:29Z Xach: pxpxp: not built-in
2020-10-11T13:40:52Z pxpxp: okay I understand now. So I'll go with WITH-OPEN-FILE and READ-BYTE, and then if it's too slow I'll try to first use READ-SEQUENCE
2020-10-11T13:41:13Z Xach: i think that's a sensible way to go
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2020-10-11T13:52:11Z _death: it would be easy with my marray library
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2020-10-11T14:50:01Z asarch: What can you do when there is no CC at hand and you still need some packages?
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2020-10-11T14:53:47Z phoe: CC? what do you mean?
2020-10-11T14:53:51Z phoe: what kind of packages?
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2020-10-11T14:55:47Z asarch: Well, I was trying to get Caveman2 on an Android phone with Cl-REPL
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2020-10-11T14:56:30Z asarch: And, at some point of the installation, (ql:quickload :caveman2) couldn't not complete the task because the absence of a C compiler
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2020-10-11T14:57:06Z asarch: And, I was wondering if you know a hack in such as cases
2020-10-11T14:57:24Z phoe: you might need to compile your own cl-repl while including all the foreign libraries that caveman2 depends on
2020-10-11T14:57:30Z phoe: I don't know of any other option
2020-10-11T14:57:43Z asarch: Oh :-(
2020-10-11T14:58:26Z asarch: I also was thinking about cross-compiling but...
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2020-10-11T15:01:26Z jackdaniel: asarch: type in the repl (ext:install-bytecodes-compiler)
2020-10-11T15:01:33Z jackdaniel: and then, try quickloading caveman
2020-10-11T15:01:54Z asarch: Ok, let me check it out...
2020-10-11T15:01:57Z phoe: jackdaniel: TIL! what kind of C compiler does it use?
2020-10-11T15:02:13Z jackdaniel: none
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2020-10-11T15:02:28Z phoe: ...wait a second
2020-10-11T15:02:31Z jackdaniel: ECL runtime environment works with both bytecompiled and natively compiled code
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2020-10-11T15:02:41Z phoe: yes, but the original question was about a CC
2020-10-11T15:02:45Z phoe: which I understood to mean a C compiler
2020-10-11T15:03:05Z jackdaniel: well, I assume that the problem was that ecl compiler could not compile things
2020-10-11T15:03:15Z phoe: OK - let's see
2020-10-11T15:03:25Z jackdaniel: that said -- no idea. that gives me nice idea for extension
2020-10-11T15:04:01Z jackdaniel: compile tcc and bundle it with ecl, so it is possible to invoke (compile-c-file …) from repl
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2020-10-11T15:04:24Z jackdaniel: volunteer implementers welcome
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2020-10-11T15:08:54Z asarch: That would be great!
2020-10-11T15:09:22Z jackdaniel: a cool hack for certain; it is arguable whether it would be very practical or a good use of time
2020-10-11T15:09:28Z jackdaniel: still, a cool hack regardless
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2020-10-11T15:15:34Z mseddon: jackdaniel: heh, yeah that's actually pretty cool. I mean, Quake 3 effectively shipped with lcc, which is a similar tiny c compiler.
2020-10-11T15:18:29Z mseddon: Carmack later discovered lisp and repented in a talk I remember.
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2020-10-11T15:27:52Z manicennui: Believe it was Racket.
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2020-10-11T15:29:08Z jackdaniel: I remember Quake 3, it was a fun game
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2020-10-11T15:38:03Z mseddon: manicennui: yes, that's right.
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2020-10-11T15:39:38Z mseddon: jackdaniel: yeah, it was one of their better ones. The engines were the real money maker at iD, the games were sometimes not great.
2020-10-11T15:40:09Z mseddon: but. I dig the off-topic bell at myself at this point.
2020-10-11T15:40:20Z mseddon: ring*
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2020-10-11T17:22:26Z diip:  Hei
2020-10-11T17:22:41Z diip: I am having a strange problem on ecl...
2020-10-11T17:23:21Z diip: when I use (abort) on the terminal repl, I get "Restart ABORT is not active"
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2020-10-11T17:23:31Z diip: but it works on the sly repl in Emacs
2020-10-11T17:23:48Z diip: and in compiled code
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2020-10-11T17:23:58Z diip: is this suppoesed to happen?
2020-10-11T17:24:16Z phoe: you mean the REPL that pops up when you execute the ecl unix binary?
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2020-10-11T17:24:52Z Bike: (abort) calls the abort restart. the ecl built in repl may not establish an abort restart while sly's repl does.
2020-10-11T17:25:21Z phoe: sly for sure establishes some sort of ABORT restart
2020-10-11T17:25:30Z phoe: ECL alone might not
2020-10-11T17:25:46Z Bike: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecl/-/blob/develop/src/lsp/top.lsp yeah, i don't see it.
2020-10-11T17:25:51Z phoe: "Implementors are encouraged to make sure that there is always a restart named abort around any user code so that user code can call abort at any time and expect something reasonable to happen; exactly what the reasonable thing is may vary somewhat."
2020-10-11T17:25:56Z phoe: that is from CLHS Restart ABORT
2020-10-11T17:26:04Z Bike: oh, really? did not know that
2020-10-11T17:26:18Z phoe: I played with that a little bit when I was doing my condition work
2020-10-11T17:26:43Z diip: isn't sly using the ecl repl?
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2020-10-11T17:26:51Z phoe: nope, it has its own REPL implementation
2020-10-11T17:27:22Z Bike: in clasp for a while we had new threads not have any restarts, which gets weird with slime
2020-10-11T17:27:29Z Bike: i don't think i named the default restart abort, tho
2020-10-11T17:27:55Z diip: I am a bit confused here, so sly is a common lisp repl written in Emacs lisp?
2020-10-11T17:28:03Z phoe: diip: yes
2020-10-11T17:28:14Z phoe: it also has a Common Lisp server named slynk that sly connects to
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2020-10-11T17:28:40Z phoe: the sly repl is independent of REPLs used by individual implementations, so, SBCL, CCL, ECL, etc.
2020-10-11T17:30:12Z phoe: diip: anyway, #ecl might be a good place to follow-up on this issue
2020-10-11T17:30:22Z diip: aha, a lot makes sense now thanks
2020-10-11T17:30:37Z diip: I will and maybe on their gitlab as well?
2020-10-11T17:30:55Z phoe: sure
2020-10-11T17:31:31Z diip: thanks, now I need to look at the sly code as well :-)
2020-10-11T17:31:31Z diip:  
2020-10-11T17:32:14Z diip: so I guess sly can be used without any implementation  installed  on the pc
2020-10-11T17:32:19Z phoe: what
2020-10-11T17:32:21Z phoe: no
2020-10-11T17:32:28Z phoe: sly needs to have a CL implementation to run slynk on
2020-10-11T17:32:42Z phoe: sly is the client, slynk is the server
2020-10-11T17:33:00Z phoe: the only thing that is interesting is that the slynk server needs not be locally on the PC - the communication can happen over a network
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2020-10-11T17:33:16Z phoe: but having a slynk server running *somewhere* is required for sly to open up its REPL
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2020-10-11T17:33:58Z diip: but the repl doesn't actually use the common lisp implimentation?
2020-10-11T17:34:05Z phoe: the repl runs on elisp
2020-10-11T17:34:16Z Bike: the repl uses the implementation. it doesn't use the implementation's repl.
2020-10-11T17:34:24Z phoe: or rather
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2020-10-11T17:34:38Z Bike: the server uses the implementation
2020-10-11T17:34:47Z Bike: right.
2020-10-11T17:34:48Z Bike: it can call eval and compile and stuff itself, you know?
2020-10-11T17:34:55Z phoe: the stuff that you see in emacs runs on elisp, and it works by sending/receiving data from slynk, running on a CL implementation.
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2020-10-11T17:35:34Z diip: is this in the sly documentation or will it be better to read the slime documentation?
2020-10-11T17:36:02Z phoe: this might or might not be described in the slime/sly documentation
2020-10-11T17:36:13Z phoe: it is just the overall architecture of it
2020-10-11T17:36:41Z diip:  so what is the implimentation used for? (if it has its own abort etc)
2020-10-11T17:36:48Z phoe: uh
2020-10-11T17:36:52Z Bike: um, everything?
2020-10-11T17:36:52Z phoe: for running Common Lisp?
2020-10-11T17:37:06Z phoe: you use the sly REPL for writing Common Lisp, don't you?
2020-10-11T17:37:06Z Bike: the server is common lisp code running in a common lisp implementation.
2020-10-11T17:37:22Z diip: sorry I guess I am being a bit slow....
2020-10-11T17:37:30Z Bike: Okay, so like, you write a line in your repl.
2020-10-11T17:37:42Z Bike: The repl sends the line to the server code. The server calls cl:eval or whatever on it.
2020-10-11T17:37:56Z Bike: results are computed and they're sent back to the repl for display.
2020-10-11T17:38:07Z Bike: the implementation is more than a repl.
2020-10-11T17:38:12Z Bike: you seem to be conflating them?
2020-10-11T17:38:40Z diip: but so how does abort work on sly? does it establish the "restart" on startup (sorry I am newish to common lisp)
2020-10-11T17:39:20Z Bike: it uses restart-case or with-simple-restart, probably.
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2020-10-11T17:39:57Z diip: restart-case of ecl to establish its own abort?
2020-10-11T17:40:02Z Bike: like - you can write your own repl. (loop (print (eval (read)))). You can throw more stuff in there, do like (loop (print (restart-case ...)))
2020-10-11T17:40:15Z phoe: everyone can establish their own restart
2020-10-11T17:40:37Z diip: yes i seem to have been conflating the implementation and the repl
2020-10-11T17:40:54Z phoe: (restart-case (invoke-restart 'my-restart) (my-restart () (print "hahaha") 42))
2020-10-11T17:41:22Z phoe: here I establish a brand new restart that, upon invocation, transfers control outside the invoking form, prints a string and returns 42
2020-10-11T17:41:32Z phoe: I could also establish an ABORT restart
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2020-10-11T17:42:10Z phoe: and evaluate the command that came from sly in an environment where that restart is in effect
2020-10-11T17:42:16Z phoe: that is what slime/slynk do.
2020-10-11T17:42:20Z mseddon: diip: yeah, you have to forget everything you know about exception handling, lisp does it far differently, and better.
2020-10-11T17:42:33Z diip:  so I can write my own abort and put it in the eclrc?
2020-10-11T17:42:42Z Bike: the eclrc is not related.
2020-10-11T17:42:58Z phoe: you'd need to write your own abort and put it inside the ECL repl
2020-10-11T17:42:59Z Bike: you're not getting it. the sly repl is code running somewhere. a function definition.
2020-10-11T17:43:00Z diip: mseddon: that will be easy, I don't know anything.
2020-10-11T17:43:05Z Bike: it just has restart-case or something in there
2020-10-11T17:43:09Z phoe: which might mean rebuilding ECL.
2020-10-11T17:43:42Z phoe: ECL has a RESTART-TOPLEVEL restart
2020-10-11T17:44:22Z phoe: which is not named ABORT, even though it possibly could, since in theory it does what an ABORT restart would reasonably do in such a situation
2020-10-11T17:44:38Z Bike: https://github.com/joaotavora/sly/blob/master/slynk/slynk.lisp#L1069-L1080 here's the sly macro that establishes an abort restart. you can see it used just below in handle-requests.
2020-10-11T17:44:48Z diip: yes, but if I put something like "my-restart" above and put it in the eclrc, wouldn't that soulve my abort problem in the repl?
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2020-10-11T17:45:11Z phoe: nope
2020-10-11T17:45:28Z phoe: you'd need to RESTART-CASE every form you type in the REPL
2020-10-11T17:45:54Z phoe: this is because restarts are established like (restart-case (foo) (my-restart ...))
2020-10-11T17:46:00Z phoe: (foo) is your code
2020-10-11T17:46:02Z Bike: what you can do with restarts is establish them AROUND code. there's no function to just add a "top level" restart that you could use in an rc file.
2020-10-11T17:46:10Z phoe: or, in other words, they're established dynamically
2020-10-11T17:46:52Z Bike: you can see in sly's code here that process-requests, which is what does evaluation and everything else, is called within the extent of the with-top-level-restart.
2020-10-11T17:47:48Z phoe: I can think of a hack that you could use
2020-10-11T17:48:11Z Bike: what do you want the abort restart do do, diip?
2020-10-11T17:48:11Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2078#2078
2020-10-11T17:48:24Z diip: so I could use it around the function that I load into the repl and it won't break when I run the code?
2020-10-11T17:48:48Z phoe: in your eclrc, you could place (loop (restart-case (si:top-level t) (abort () :report "Abort execution."))) which would effectively subvert the main ECL toplevel with a new toplevel that has the ABORT restart established
2020-10-11T17:48:59Z Bike: i mean, you can do (restart-case (my-function) (abort ...)) if that's what you mean
2020-10-11T17:49:18Z diip: Bike: I am writing an error* code in a file that I want to load into the repl to test
2020-10-11T17:49:47Z diip: but it breaks the code rather than simply aborting (which is what I want)
2020-10-11T17:50:03Z Bike: what i mean is that an "abort" can mean different things in different contexts. in a sly repl it will return to the repl. outside of a repl it might quit the program.
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2020-10-11T17:50:28Z diip: Bike: yes that restart case function will work (I hope)
2020-10-11T17:50:45Z phoe: simply aborting, what do you mean?
2020-10-11T17:50:48Z phoe: do you want to quit ECL?
2020-10-11T17:51:38Z diip: outside the repl, it should quit the program but whin testing in the repl I just want it to go back to the top-level without any error code (other than what is in my own error*)
2020-10-11T17:52:57Z phoe: this sounds like a case for what --disable-debugger does in SBCL
2020-10-11T17:53:07Z phoe: I don't know if ECL has a switch like that
2020-10-11T17:53:09Z diip: phoe: interesting, thanks maybe but I will try the simplest way first
2020-10-11T17:53:25Z diip: never used sbcl much
2020-10-11T17:53:51Z diip: phoe: I meant about creating my own top-level
2020-10-11T17:54:36Z diip: all I need for now is for the code to go back to top-level during testing, thanks
2020-10-11T17:55:31Z diip: *shakes head* I have a lot to learn
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2020-10-11T18:53:58Z mseddon: diip: it is immensely rewarding, and will make you generally a better programmer everywhere else.
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2020-10-11T20:48:30Z remexre: is there a way to get iterate's (collect THING into OUT) to /not/ let-bind OUT around the loop?
2020-10-11T20:48:53Z Bike: how would it be bound, then?
2020-10-11T20:49:03Z remexre: already exists in an outer scope
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2020-10-11T20:50:26Z Bike: adding to the end of an existing list is sort of a different operation
2020-10-11T20:50:39Z Bike: seems like you could maybe do it with accumulate if you don't want to write your own clause
2020-10-11T20:51:02Z remexre: okay, I'll take a look at that; thanks
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2020-10-11T20:59:45Z phoe: (push thing out)
2020-10-11T20:59:57Z phoe: and then nreverse the result
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2020-10-12T03:06:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-10-12T03:08:04Z pillton: Good morning beach.
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2020-10-12T03:10:57Z beach: Wow, long time no see.  What have you been up to?
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2020-10-12T03:14:28Z pillton: Yeah. It has been a long time. Kids and work have been keeping me pretty busy. I still manage to keep doing some CL. You have to stay sane somehow.
2020-10-12T03:14:45Z beach: I see, yes.
2020-10-12T03:16:04Z pillton: How are you?
2020-10-12T03:16:49Z beach: Very busy with SICL.  I recently came up with a better way of doing bootstrapping, so I am implementing that now.
2020-10-12T03:17:14Z pillton: A better way? The last I remember is that you had come up with a good way to do that.
2020-10-12T03:18:12Z beach: I had a way, and it works, but it was messy, and it required me to adapt some production code, resulting in it being not as idiomatic as I would have wanted.
2020-10-12T03:19:57Z moon-child: ooh, what's the new way?
2020-10-12T03:20:13Z pillton: I look forward to the paper.
2020-10-12T03:21:07Z beach: moon-child: To the untrained eye, they look the same, and an explanation from me right now would make no sense to anybody but perhaps the few people who work directly on SICL.
2020-10-12T03:21:35Z beach: pillton: I still have no idea how to explain all this in an 8-page paper.
2020-10-12T03:22:34Z pillton: beach: You will figure it out. Clarity of presentation will emerge during implementation.
2020-10-12T03:22:55Z beach: I hope so, but it has been a while and I still see no way.
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2020-10-12T07:00:24Z flip214: beach: perhaps you should try to explain it to somebody - that might help clarify your thoughts. Do you have a puppet? Or you could tell me and perhaps I can ask a few good questions.?
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2020-10-12T07:01:16Z beach: That's a nice offer.  Thanks.
2020-10-12T07:01:29Z beach: I think I can do it but not in 8 pages.
2020-10-12T07:02:49Z beach: Either way, I am going to wait until I am sure that this new technique works as I hope it will.
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2020-10-12T07:10:47Z flip214: Goodie!
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2020-10-12T07:39:08Z iissaacc: generic functions are such a cool way of doing OO
2020-10-12T07:39:41Z iissaacc: the more common lisp i do the more i enjoy it
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2020-10-12T07:39:58Z beach: Great!
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2020-10-12T07:48:24Z beach: So, apparently, when Alan Kay invented the term object-oriented programming, he meant that objects should communicate as if they were on different computers connected by a network.  He (apparently again) does not like the way that the term has been used for the class-based programming style that most so-called object-oriented languages support.
2020-10-12T07:49:01Z beach: Therefore, maybe we should call our style "generic-function-based programming".
2020-10-12T07:50:17Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, the big deal to Kay is messaging.
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2020-10-12T07:51:59Z no-defun-allowed: However, in his 1997 OOPSLA presentation he said The Art of the Meta-Object Protocol was the best book anyone's written in ten years (except that it was hard to understand if you didn't get Lisp, but it's a Lisp book...), but that was some time ago.
2020-10-12T07:53:21Z beach: Oh, Kay said that?
2020-10-12T07:53:33Z beach: Interesting!
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2020-10-12T07:55:39Z beach: It is not easy to understand even for Lispers.  I had two attempts that I abandoned.
2020-10-12T07:56:24Z no-defun-allowed: See around https://youtu.be/oKg1hTOQXoY?t=3239
2020-10-12T07:57:00Z beach: Nice.  Thanks!
2020-10-12T07:57:58Z no-defun-allowed: While searching for that, the two analogies Kay likes came up rapidly: he likens objects to biological cells (you can't poke things into them), and small servers ("every object should have an IP address").
2020-10-12T07:58:48Z beach: Yes, he is trained as a biologist I think.
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2020-10-12T08:01:10Z no-defun-allowed: Huh, didn't know that before.
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2020-10-12T09:49:37Z VincentVega: Is it possibly to require/load a library/file thread-locally? It looks like one can have thread-local function definitions https://pastebin.com/WSCcaT5V so that's a start. Using something like https://pastebin.com/AJGi7Mve which uses load or require (with different packages in the cl-user namespace) fails though.
2020-10-12T09:49:44Z VincentVega: Why: I want to be able to have multiple threads each running its own graphical library (e.g. thread1: sdl, thread2: webgl). I have some code that defines drawing primitives over those libraries (e.g. draw-rectangle, draw-circle). Then there's the high-level (library-agnostic) code which uses those primitives to draw stuff. So if I manage to have
2020-10-12T09:49:45Z VincentVega: thread-local definitions for primitives, the high-level code never has to deal with the fact that there are multiple libraries (in the high-level code I want to literally say: (draw-rectangle rect) without ever mentioning the specific library).
2020-10-12T09:50:48Z phoe: thread-local function definitions?
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2020-10-12T09:50:56Z phoe: no, they are going to clash with one another
2020-10-12T09:51:15Z VincentVega: thread-local functions I mean
2020-10-12T09:51:17Z phoe: DEFUN defines functions in the global environment and these are not thread-local
2020-10-12T09:51:27Z flip214: VincentVega: you could create new packages and use them per-thread
2020-10-12T09:51:32Z phoe: ^
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2020-10-12T09:51:36Z jackdaniel: phoe: clostrum is a protocol to have multiple global environments, but it is not adopted by any CL implementation
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2020-10-12T09:52:01Z phoe: jackdaniel: I'm aware of that and I assume that VincentVega uses an implementation with a single global environment
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2020-10-12T09:52:09Z jackdaniel: another way is to have i.e draw-rectangle be defined like this: (defun draw-rectangle (x1 y1 x2 y2) (funcall *draw-rectangle* x1 y1 x2 y2))
2020-10-12T09:52:22Z jackdaniel: and bind functions per-thread to *draw-rectangle* (in this examlpe)
2020-10-12T09:52:33Z jackdaniel: because dynamic bindings *are* (usually) thread local
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2020-10-12T09:52:59Z VincentVega: phoe: interesting, ok
2020-10-12T09:53:01Z jackdaniel: phoe: I'm aware of that, but clostrum is a direct approach to the very problam VincentVega describes, so it is worth mentioning, that it has been at least recognized
2020-10-12T09:53:12Z phoe: jackdaniel: OK, understood
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2020-10-12T09:53:20Z jackdaniel: and since it has been recognized and it is not implemented in any cl implementation, then there is no "other" standard direct approach
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2020-10-12T09:54:12Z jackdaniel: I think that the approach with functions bound dynamically per-thread sounds as the closest approximation
2020-10-12T09:54:25Z VincentVega: flip214: so if I define a new package, how do I load it in the thread? I tried require and that didn't pan out (I can upload some code if needed)
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2020-10-12T09:55:33Z phoe: you don't load packages per-thread, you don't even load packages whatsoever
2020-10-12T09:55:35Z beach: VincentVega: Typically (asdf:load-system <name-of-system>) [I am guessing you mean "system" rather than "package"]
2020-10-12T09:55:41Z phoe: packages, once they're defined, just exist
2020-10-12T09:55:57Z phoe: there's an unfortunately named http://index-of.es/Programming/Lisp/Lisp%20Mess/Erann%20Gat%20-%20Idiots%20Guide%20To%20Lisp%20Packages.pdf that you might want to read
2020-10-12T09:55:59Z pve: are threads necessary in achieving this abstraction?
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2020-10-12T09:56:09Z phoe: packages have nothing to do with threads
2020-10-12T09:56:29Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: that's a valid approach I guess, hmmm. i'll check out clostrum
2020-10-12T09:56:41Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: I'm not suggesting using clostrum
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2020-10-12T09:56:52Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think threads are necessary.
2020-10-12T09:56:53Z jackdaniel: as I've said, it is not supported by common lisp implementations as of today
2020-10-12T09:57:15Z jackdaniel: I'll paste a code in a minute that will illustrate a per-thread approach you arguably want
2020-10-12T09:57:26Z VincentVega: phoe: thanks I'll read it
2020-10-12T09:57:35Z no-defun-allowed: One could have a special variable *backend*, and then have (draw-rectangle ...) trampoline to (draw-rectangle-on-backend *backend ...)
2020-10-12T09:57:36Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: ok
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2020-10-12T09:58:44Z no-defun-allowed: Now one can change backend by re-binding (or changing the value of the current binding of) *backend*; so threads aren't really needed to achieve that.
2020-10-12T09:59:39Z VincentVega: phoe: well, before I read that, ok, I define a package, but I don't get how to "use it per thread" as suggested by flip214
2020-10-12T09:59:42Z no-defun-allowed: Then you would write methods for draw-rectangle-on-backend like (defmethod draw-rectangle-on-backend ((backend sdl-backend) ...) ...)
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2020-10-12T10:00:29Z no-defun-allowed: I think packages are also not quite right for this abstraction. You probably want to have a backend stored in some variable, and then dispatch on the backend type.
2020-10-12T10:00:43Z flip214: VincentVega: you'd need to use (funcall (find-symbol "function1" package) args...)
2020-10-12T10:01:35Z VincentVega: no-defun-allowed: I will be having threads anyway, so that's kind of a given, but I see the point with the global var, ok
2020-10-12T10:01:45Z flip214: TBH, libraries could use a good mechanism for per-thread GF dispatch - all that per-use configuration (encoding/decoding, eg. YAML, JSON, XML, ...)
2020-10-12T10:01:57Z VincentVega: flip214: oh i see
2020-10-12T10:02:06Z no-defun-allowed: pve asked if threads are necessary, and as you can just rebind dynamic variables, probably not.
2020-10-12T10:02:28Z VincentVega: no-defun-allowed: gotcha
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2020-10-12T10:04:41Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/99a72ad4-xxx.lisp.txt
2020-10-12T10:05:46Z jackdaniel: the first approach is closest to what you have described, the second approach is better (and is basically what no-defun-allowed described)
2020-10-12T10:05:55Z beach: Definitely a kludge compared to Clostrum. :)
2020-10-12T10:06:00Z jackdaniel: sure
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2020-10-12T10:08:09Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: all that said, having an explicit argument to functions like draw-rectangle would be arguably better
2020-10-12T10:08:20Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: great, thank you
2020-10-12T10:09:26Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: yeah, would probably be faster, but kind of ugly in the sense of verbosity and necessity
2020-10-12T10:09:43Z flip214: jackdaniel: OTOH, have all functions like DRAW-RECTANGLE call some hidden function which uses the special variable for dispatch..
2020-10-12T10:09:54Z jackdaniel: VincentVega: if you have "explicit" medium you draw on, you could store in that instance many interesting things
2020-10-12T10:09:54Z flip214: then the dispatch wouldn't even be visible "on the frontend"
2020-10-12T10:09:57Z jackdaniel: i.e a color
2020-10-12T10:10:20Z jackdaniel: (instead of mutating global state of the backend you still need to access regardless)
2020-10-12T10:10:41Z jackdaniel: (setf (color medium) red) (draw-rectangle medium 1 1 9 9))
2020-10-12T10:11:02Z jackdaniel: not to mention things like line style etc
2020-10-12T10:11:07Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: yeah, that sounds nice
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2020-10-12T10:11:24Z beach: In fact, I think with the AST evaluator, Clostrum could be used in any implementation.
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2020-10-12T10:11:36Z beach: It is only a factor 3 or so slower than native code.
2020-10-12T10:11:41Z jackdaniel: (and you could have multiple mediums writing to the same "display server" with different options)
2020-10-12T10:12:31Z VincentVega: anyone has a link for clostrum? pretty ungooglable
2020-10-12T10:12:33Z jackdaniel: but I can't recommend you enough contributing to McCLIM, where all these things has been thought through - the only requiring work is implementation
2020-10-12T10:12:43Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Clostrum
2020-10-12T10:13:26Z jackdaniel: but as I said, it is not natively incorporated in any other implementation than sicl - you can load sicl on sbcl and go through that, however I'm not sure if that's what you really want
2020-10-12T10:13:38Z jackdaniel: (it may be incorporated in the future of course)
2020-10-12T10:14:07Z jackdaniel: s/only requiring/only thing that requires/
2020-10-12T10:14:21Z beach: But maybe I should prepare a demo for the online Lisp meeting, showing how this can be done.
2020-10-12T10:14:33Z phoe: beach: as always, videos welcome~
2020-10-12T10:14:40Z beach: Sure.
2020-10-12T10:14:59Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: oh, thanks for the link and the explanations.
2020-10-12T10:15:32Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: Yeah, well mcclim is kind of complex and seems abondoned. I was considering it at some point.
2020-10-12T10:15:50Z jackdaniel: abandoned?
2020-10-12T10:15:56Z jackdaniel is shocked
2020-10-12T10:15:57Z VincentVega: not actively developed?
2020-10-12T10:15:57Z aeth: I think it's un-abandoned now?
2020-10-12T10:15:57Z beach: VincentVega: Watch out what you are saying.
2020-10-12T10:16:02Z aeth: You might be looking at the wrong repo
2020-10-12T10:16:20Z VincentVega: wasn't gonna hurt anyones feelings
2020-10-12T10:16:26Z jackdaniel: no, it's not that
2020-10-12T10:16:46Z VincentVega: is it being developed these days then?
2020-10-12T10:16:48Z jackdaniel: it is just we have a few contributors and it is developed quite actively
2020-10-12T10:16:49Z beach: VincentVega: Well, jackdaniel is the main maintainer, and there is lots of good activity.
2020-10-12T10:16:56Z VincentVega: sorry, didn't know that
2020-10-12T10:16:57Z aeth: 6000 commits is one of the most active repos I've seen in CL? https://github.com/McCLIM/McCLIM/
2020-10-12T10:17:06Z jackdaniel: in fact we have more pull requests than we could review in a timely manner
2020-10-12T10:17:15Z aeth: (although, of course, some people use git features to reduce their commits on purpose, to make themselves look less active)
2020-10-12T10:17:36Z VincentVega: i guess i got that feeling from some of the old google threads or smth, sorry
2020-10-12T10:17:39Z jackdaniel: so all I can say is that I invite you to contribute :)
2020-10-12T10:17:42Z phoe: two of the recent OLM talks were directly involving McCLIM, too
2020-10-12T10:17:43Z no-defun-allowed: (Sometimes people do the opposite when they want to get hired!)
2020-10-12T10:18:16Z phoe: one of them was about a McCLIM application and the other used McCLIM to present some concepts visually
2020-10-12T10:18:24Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: gotcha : )
2020-10-12T10:18:36Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: right, commits are an imperfect measure that can be gamed, but they generally are useful for "not dead"
2020-10-12T10:18:36Z jackdaniel: there is (also active!) irc channel #clim
2020-10-12T10:18:56Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Some people also abuse them to draw pictures on the status/time grid.
2020-10-12T10:19:23Z VincentVega: jackdaniel: ok
2020-10-12T10:21:16Z VincentVega: guys, thank you all for the info!
2020-10-12T10:21:34Z jackdaniel: pleasure ,)
2020-10-12T10:22:49Z jackdaniel: maybe it is a subjective feeling, but common lisp ecosystem and new ideas proliferation are quite active for a dead language
2020-10-12T10:23:56Z aeth: Common Lisp is an undead language
2020-10-12T10:24:16Z jackdaniel: rme had a nice picture at els (in London I think), where Lisp was presented as a zombie
2020-10-12T10:24:33Z phoe: jackdaniel: http://thisoldlisp.com/talks/els-2018/
2020-10-12T10:24:53Z jackdaniel: phoe: thanks
2020-10-12T10:24:55Z jackdaniel: that: http://thisoldlisp.com/talks/els-2018/slides/tol.004.png
2020-10-12T10:25:34Z jackdaniel: in Marbella
2020-10-12T10:28:26Z no-defun-allowed: CLIM isn't dead, it just smells funny.
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2020-10-12T10:33:57Z scymtym: McCLIM isn't dead, it just looks like Windows 95
2020-10-12T10:34:18Z jackdaniel: no worries, I'm working on bringing it to DOS look and feel
2020-10-12T10:34:46Z jackdaniel: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/1ffd8148-wool.mp4
2020-10-12T10:35:42Z iissaacc: CL is like biblical hebrew, if we try hard enough it will live again cf. Israeli hebrew
2020-10-12T10:36:01Z iissaacc: (live as in vibrantly popular)
2020-10-12T10:37:53Z scymtym said that with the intention of eventually plugging https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/mcclim-modern-look-and-feel.png but nobody took the bait :)
2020-10-12T10:38:35Z jackdaniel: you did not customize text editor look&feel ,-) looks nice
2020-10-12T10:40:00Z scymtym: yeah, the screenshot is actually outdated in other ways as well, but you know how it goes with screenshots
2020-10-12T10:40:33Z jackdaniel was sneakily taking a jab at drei customization capabilities
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2020-10-12T11:59:51Z pve: I, for one, dig the motif look
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2020-10-12T12:41:51Z flip214: is there a YAML output library with indented output for CL?
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2020-10-12T12:48:24Z flip214: cl-yaml writes a single line only
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2020-10-12T13:43:06Z pxpxp: I'd like to assign a new local variable inside a conditional clause of a loop, like using a :for inside an :if. Minimal example: (loop :for i :upto 10 :when (evenp i) << Here I want to say e.g. j = (* 2 i) >> :do (print j))
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2020-10-12T13:43:37Z pxpxp: Let's say my equivalent of computing (* 2 i) is a costly operation so I don't want to do it every time
2020-10-12T13:43:48Z phoe: (loop with j = nil ...)
2020-10-12T13:43:51Z phoe: then use J as appropriate in code
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2020-10-12T13:45:12Z pxpxp: thanks
2020-10-12T13:45:17Z flip214: pxpxp: :when (evenp i) (let ((j (* 2 i))) ... ) if you only need j in there
2020-10-12T13:45:32Z flip214: sorry, :when (evenp i) :do (let...)
2020-10-12T13:46:21Z phoe: or this
2020-10-12T13:47:23Z pxpxp: indeed!
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2020-10-12T13:49:07Z linuxnoob: lisp is awful
2020-10-12T13:49:21Z eta: rude
2020-10-12T13:49:27Z ChanServ has set mode +o phoe
2020-10-12T13:49:30Z phoe has set mode +b *!*linuxnoob@*.blix.com
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2020-10-12T13:49:38Z phoe: please carry on
2020-10-12T13:49:54Z Robdgreat: that wasn't even skillful trolling
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2020-10-12T13:50:00Z Robdgreat: thanks phoe
2020-10-12T13:50:05Z phoe: I mean, yeah
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2020-10-12T13:50:27Z phoe: if you come here to waste everyone's time, at least put some effort of your own into it
2020-10-12T13:50:38Z phoe: or, even better
2020-10-12T13:50:44Z phoe: don't come
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2020-10-12T13:50:57Z Robdgreat: I like some channel or other with something like "if you're going to troll, it better be hilarious"
2020-10-12T13:51:00Z Robdgreat: in the topic
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2020-10-12T14:03:55Z flip214: phoe: can you move people over to another channel, #lisp-trolls or so? perhaps a few might be educated
2020-10-12T14:04:03Z phoe: not worth it
2020-10-12T14:04:06Z flip214: and if not, it might be a bit of entertainment
2020-10-12T14:04:21Z phoe: google's c.l.l is already replete with such entertainment
2020-10-12T14:04:40Z phoe: ;; unless they started somehow moderating it, which would be both unusual and welcome
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2020-10-12T17:11:28Z remexre: so w/ trivia, I can do (match '(1 2 3) ((list* x y) (list x y)) => (1 (2 3))
2020-10-12T17:11:41Z remexre: versus the equivalent for vectors, (match #(1 2 3) ((vector* x y) (list x y)) => (1 2)
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2020-10-12T17:12:00Z remexre: is there a pattern for vectors that acts like list* does, i.e. gives me (1 #(2 3))
2020-10-12T17:13:17Z Bike: is there actually an operator called vector* rather than vector?
2020-10-12T17:19:07Z phoe: clhs vector*
2020-10-12T17:19:07Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for vector*.
2020-10-12T17:19:18Z Bike: in trivia/optima, i mean
2020-10-12T17:19:19Z phoe: oh wait, you are talking trivia
2020-10-12T17:19:34Z remexre: there is in trivia, yes\
2020-10-12T17:19:49Z Bike: don't see documentation for it. weird.
2020-10-12T17:19:52Z remexre: like, the above code is tested in a repl :P
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2020-10-12T17:20:45Z Bike: oh wait, here it is
2020-10-12T17:23:05Z Bike: glancing through the manual i don't see anything, but you can probably write one
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2020-10-12T17:51:22Z scymtym remembers https://github.com/m2ym/optima/pull/82
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2020-10-12T17:51:49Z scymtym: last comment says "this is addressed in trivia"
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2020-10-12T17:54:29Z Bike: mm, and in the comment above that they say they don't like the idea because it conses
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2020-10-13T00:58:59Z remexre: does quicklisp allow depending on versions? e.g. I need the foo system, with a version >= 1.3 && < 2.0
2020-10-13T00:59:49Z asarch: What is a LOAD-SYSTEM-DEFINITION-ERROR?
2020-10-13T01:00:43Z asarch: Nevermind, I get to the error where there is no *CC*
2020-10-13T01:01:05Z asarch: Condition of type: LOAD-SYSTEM-DEFINITION-ERROR
2020-10-13T01:03:04Z asarch: Error while trying to load definition for system static-vectors from pathname /data/data/org.eql5.android.repl/files/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/static-vectors-v1.8.6/static-vectors.asd: Cannot find the external symbol *CC* in #<"C" package>
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2020-10-13T01:18:01Z defunkydrummer: remexre: no, quicklisp comes in "distributions" and the libraries in one distribution are all compatible against each other (hopefully)
2020-10-13T01:18:54Z defunkydrummer: remexre: I think that what you want can be done with certain utilities that go on top of quicklisp, but i don't have more details to offer.
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2020-10-13T01:19:21Z aeth: defunkydrummer: actually, with utilities that go under quicklisp, i.e. ASDF
2020-10-13T01:19:23Z aeth: asdf has version-satisfies and version< and version<=
2020-10-13T01:19:33Z remexre: hm, okay; this is a hypothetical anyway, any important projects I'
2020-10-13T01:19:41Z remexre: m already vendoring w/ submodules
2020-10-13T01:20:03Z aeth: ASDF's version functionality will only handle dot-separated natural numbers
2020-10-13T01:21:01Z aeth: Oh, version-satisfies is ASDF and the lower-level version< and version<= are uiop
2020-10-13T01:24:39Z aeth: remexre: (and (uiop:version<= "1.3" version) (uiop:version< version "2.0"))
2020-10-13T01:25:27Z aeth: You would probably have to patch Quicklisp to support x (<= or <) version (<= or <) y
2020-10-13T01:26:43Z aeth: But the underlying UIOP+ASDF system that Quicklisp uses does seem to support this functionality.
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2020-10-13T02:26:45Z dbotton__: Do most major projects in commercial use today of CL use CLOS?
2020-10-13T02:27:23Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know about "in commercial use", but most projects I've seen use CLOS.
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2020-10-13T02:28:50Z dbotton__: It just seems like much of what I am seeing on the web is an emphasis on the functional paradigm with lisp
2020-10-13T02:29:21Z dbotton__: bordering on discouraging oo or procedural
2020-10-13T02:29:44Z no-defun-allowed: CLOS can be used in a functional manner; there was a paper about it, but there are no a priori reasons either excludes the other to me.
2020-10-13T02:30:05Z dbotton__: you have a link?
2020-10-13T02:30:15Z no-defun-allowed: Looking for one now.
2020-10-13T02:30:20Z no-defun-allowed: https://dreamsongs.com/Files/clos-cacm.pdf
2020-10-13T02:30:37Z dbotton__: thanks
2020-10-13T02:32:56Z dbotton__: are there efforts for an update to the standard (if that is even needed)?
2020-10-13T02:33:39Z no-defun-allowed: But I suppose there are a lot of resources (of questionable quality) stating that Lisp is only a function language.
2020-10-13T02:33:44Z dbotton__: in the algol world if a lang doesn't get a boost every 10 years is considered dead...
2020-10-13T02:34:35Z dbotton__: it is the imperative and oo so far that have me interested
2020-10-13T02:34:38Z no-defun-allowed: Not to my knowledge; all the common extensions (eg closer-mop, bordeaux-threads) are agreed upon outside the standard.
2020-10-13T02:34:55Z dbotton__: if I see that functional gets me some place all the better
2020-10-13T02:35:25Z dbotton__: I have felt that most functional programing I have encouraged just took away readability and quality
2020-10-13T02:35:29Z remexre: arguably, cl has strong enough metaprogramming that spec updates aren't needed for stuff that other languages put in spec updates
2020-10-13T02:36:02Z dbotton__: that is how things seem to me, but I am far from fully grasping the full picture yet
2020-10-13T02:36:09Z remexre: also as someone who writes the programs you're complaining about, I think that Haskell/PureScript do that style of FP better :P
2020-10-13T02:36:25Z remexre: but you /can/ e.g. use the Cont monad in CL
2020-10-13T02:36:34Z remexre: it's just not, like, normal
2020-10-13T02:36:43Z no-defun-allowed: Do what you have to do; but I've observed that functional programming involves less hair-pulling with parallel programs.
2020-10-13T02:37:50Z dbotton__: Convenience is what I have seen it offer
2020-10-13T02:37:56Z dbotton__: for parallel programing
2020-10-13T02:38:17Z remexre: for concurrent programming, I think it has compelling advantages
2020-10-13T02:38:37Z remexre: since you can implement green threads easily as a library, force shared mutable state to use stm, etc
2020-10-13T02:39:37Z no-defun-allowed: I don't really have anything to say about concurrent programming, other than shared state is evil.
2020-10-13T02:40:40Z remexre: STM lets you phrase your uses of shared state as transactions, and you can compose transactions
2020-10-13T02:40:41Z dbotton__: Everything I have done since around 1993 till now has been concurrent systems, I can't imagine an app anymore without
2020-10-13T02:41:04Z dbotton__: the Ada model has worked well
2020-10-13T02:41:06Z remexre: like shared state is still to be avoided with it, but it removes most of the mutex footguns
2020-10-13T02:41:56Z dbotton__: and extended well for distributed systems.
2020-10-13T02:42:17Z dbotton__: I have not done much though with parallel algorithms
2020-10-13T02:42:29Z dbotton__: ie drilling down not out
2020-10-13T02:44:16Z dbotton__: are there any concurrency models using CLOS that are popular?
2020-10-13T02:44:53Z dbotton__: something like Active Oberon?
2020-10-13T02:45:46Z no-defun-allowed: As far as I can tell, it'd be nonsensical, as objects don't "do things" like in object-centric languages including Oberon.
2020-10-13T02:47:01Z dbotton__: the idea is to encapsulate the shared state issues
2020-10-13T02:47:37Z remexre: I think I'd use local variables for that :P
2020-10-13T02:47:54Z dbotton__: and if you object being shared in two threads?
2020-10-13T02:48:56Z remexre: don't do that (TM)
2020-10-13T02:49:10Z remexre: most of my data is immutable
2020-10-13T02:50:10Z dbotton__: yes that is the convenience of functional
2020-10-13T02:50:41Z dbotton__: at the loss of modeling the real world etc the advantages of oo etc
2020-10-13T02:50:56Z aeth: dbotton__: On CLOS... if your style isn't particularly OO, it's still going to be used here or there to get polymorphism.
2020-10-13T02:51:19Z aeth: It would be maybe like 5% of the depth that CLOS offers, of course.
2020-10-13T02:51:21Z remexre: yeah, I use CLOS more to be able to use methods/generic functions than b/c objects model my domain well
2020-10-13T02:52:37Z aeth: dbotton__: CLOS is actually really good at being used in a project that isn't particularly object oriented because instead of putting methods with an object, you can just refactor your function into a method if suddenly you need/want polymorphism, without having to do any major changes.
2020-10-13T02:53:12Z aeth: really just s/defun/defmethod/
2020-10-13T02:53:47Z aeth: In most OOP languages, you'd have to move the method inside of the class definition, and maybe move it to another (possibly new) file if that class is defined there
2020-10-13T02:54:18Z aeth: And then you'd probably have to change foo(bar, baz) into bar.foo(baz) too
2020-10-13T02:55:51Z dbotton__: That was what I like but Ada's OO also more granular and can use it in parts
2020-10-13T02:56:18Z aeth: (or baz.foo(bar))
2020-10-13T02:58:35Z dbotton__: thanks going to read that article
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2020-10-13T03:00:25Z aeth: dbotton__: if "can use it in parts" means that you can subset the OO in Ada but can't in CL, then, yeah, CLOS is sort of all-or-nothing from an implementation perspective (and every application is also going to have to ship it)
2020-10-13T03:00:57Z aeth: DEFSTRUCT kind of exists as a sort of subset, though.
2020-10-13T03:02:45Z dbotton: use it in parts means more control over where polymorphism applies
2020-10-13T03:03:34Z dbotton: or other oo magic
2020-10-13T03:03:47Z dbotton: seems that clos is similar
2020-10-13T03:03:50Z sm2n: well, if you don't want it, just use regular functions
2020-10-13T03:04:07Z sm2n: generic functions are regular functions with fancy pixie dust
2020-10-13T03:04:20Z dbotton: but can hold on to encapsulated
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2020-10-13T03:04:56Z dbotton: encapsulation
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2020-10-13T03:16:56Z aeth: yeah, you can just use a DEFUN even if the argument is of a certain class
2020-10-13T03:17:44Z aeth: I would argue that you should use a DEFUN instead of a DEFMETHOD unless you want (1) to use polymorphism, (2) to use :before/:after/:around, and/or (3) to let the user of the API do #1 or #2
2020-10-13T03:18:16Z aeth: Except, of course, for the accessors that are usually auto-generated anyway. That's more practicality than anything else. It would be very easy to have a name conflict for something like NAME.
2020-10-13T03:19:21Z defunkydrummer: aeth: #3 to gain some type safety (will only dispatch if the parameters are of the correct specializers)
2020-10-13T03:19:44Z defunkydrummer: aeth: sorry, reason #4 would be to gain some type safety...
2020-10-13T03:20:14Z defunkydrummer: and to leave your system open for further extension
2020-10-13T03:20:16Z aeth: defunkydrummer: No, you can just use DECLARE or CHECK-TYPE (but use a macro that generates one or both of those) when you just want to work with a type (including classes).
2020-10-13T03:20:49Z defunkydrummer: aeth: yes you can but the effect will depend on the implementation
2020-10-13T03:21:29Z aeth: CHECK-TYPE is well-specified. DECLARE will depend on the implementation, but will reasonably either just be ignored or do type checking. The only implementation that assumes types is SBCL with (safety 0) and the general advice is to never use (safety 0) for that reason.
2020-10-13T03:22:17Z defunkydrummer: i love (safety 0) (debug 0) (speed 3) ... YOLO mode
2020-10-13T03:22:24Z aeth: But if semantically you want to check the type then semantically you should do typechecking, not DEFMETHOD, unless you want the user (or yourself) to add more supported types in a polymorphic way later on.
2020-10-13T03:22:40Z aeth: For one, it'll give you a good error message
2020-10-13T03:22:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-10-13T03:23:39Z defunkydrummer: bonjour Beach
2020-10-13T03:24:37Z defunkydrummer: aeth: yes, that's my point, declare will depend on the implementation, while any implementation that has CLOS won't dispatch to the method if the arguments aren't of the correct type (or subtype etc)
2020-10-13T03:24:48Z aeth: Personally I'd use my own define-function macro for your particular case (if I wanted to guarantee type checking) and write it as (define-function (foo :check-type t) lambda-list body)...
2020-10-13T03:24:52Z aeth: ...and if the types are also classes and if I don't define types for &key or &body or &optional (which I support but defmethod does not) then it could easily be refactored into (defmethod foo lambda-list body) at some later point if I find that I need polymorphism.
2020-10-13T03:25:57Z aeth: There are lots of macros like this, but they're imo broken if (1) they use the opposite order of defmethod (i.e. if they use (type var) instead of (var type)) or (2) they don't allow you to use check-type instead of declare
2020-10-13T03:27:34Z aeth: I'm personally more likely to need &key types checked than I am going to need polymorphism, although I guess I could come up with a define-method that creates a wrapper function that flattens the &key/&optional and calls a defmethod
2020-10-13T03:27:36Z defunkydrummer: aeth: agree with you on the "broken" part
2020-10-13T03:29:42Z aeth: defunkydrummer: Generally, I use DECLARE on "internal" things and CHECK-TYPE on "external" things, but I write... very large software, so I wind up using DECLARE more than CHECK-TYPE... and absolutely all of it is generated by DEFINE-FUNCTION these days.
2020-10-13T03:30:12Z aeth: That is, for internal things, it's not going to be the end of the world if the type's not checked, and probably even if the type's assumed, but for external things, the CHECK-TYPE's continuable nature makes it more suitable than even a DEFMETHOD.
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2020-10-13T03:34:48Z aeth: defunkydrummer: I actually wonder if there's a way to enforce a CHECK-TYPE style behavior if there's no applicable method. e.g. in (defmethod foo ((integer integer)) (* integer integer)) vs. (defun foobar (integer) (check-type integer integer) (* integer integer)) you can provide an integer in the latter
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2020-10-13T03:39:56Z defunkydrummer: aeth: i think there was a way (using mop i think?) to redirect the 'no applicable method' to another place. Like if we were on a message-passing system (smalltalk). I think no-defun-allowed knows about this.
2020-10-13T03:40:06Z defunkydrummer: no-defun-allowed: oi
2020-10-13T03:40:20Z no-defun-allowed: clhs no-applicable-method
2020-10-13T03:40:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_no_app.htm
2020-10-13T03:42:16Z no-defun-allowed: Smalltalk has doesNotUnderstand: aMessage which would be called with messages it doesn't have any other methods for. Note that this is per generic function though, and I admittedly can't think of something this could do that a method specialised to all Ts couldn't do.
2020-10-13T03:42:37Z aeth: oh, hmm, I guess the issue with trying to do something in the style of CHECK-TYPE is that you'd need a matching type signature of every argument at once.
2020-10-13T03:43:07Z aeth: You couldn't just iterate over each and ask for something to be valid, since what you really want is a valid combination.
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2020-10-13T04:17:17Z sm2n: is there anyway to get cl-who/hunchentoot to indent html output?
2020-10-13T04:17:39Z no-defun-allowed: (with-html-output (... :indent t) ...)
2020-10-13T04:20:08Z sm2n: woah, thanks I missed that in the docs
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2020-10-13T05:33:13Z borei: good morning/afternoon !
2020-10-13T05:35:24Z borei: does anybody has experience with ceph object storage. Im working on CL rados client. Started to get first results, performance is not fantastic, most probably it's because of my ceph cluster layout, but anyway decided to ask if somebody worked on the same project.
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2020-10-13T08:37:16Z ioa: can anyone make a good case about two-phase unwinding in common-lisp, especially wrt to `finally` in Java? https://github.com/WebAssembly/exception-handling/issues/87#issuecomment-707482499
2020-10-13T08:38:18Z ioa: we are trying to make initial support for WebAssembly exceptions compatible with a future two-phase unwinding extension
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2020-10-13T08:40:52Z no-defun-allowed: To my knowledge, finally is implemented in Java like a catch that catches every exception, does its business, then rethrows. It doesn't appear to have much in common with Common Lisp, because signalling a condition is one of many things that causes non-local transfer of control.
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2020-10-13T08:43:24Z no-defun-allowed: And the condition system is (usually) just implemented with dynamic variables and some other control structure.
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2020-10-13T08:46:05Z pve: I can't help, but I would like to learn what "two-phase unwinding" means.
2020-10-13T08:46:34Z phoe: I can help\
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2020-10-13T08:48:35Z beach: clhs 5.2
2020-10-13T08:48:35Z specbot: Transfer of Control to an Exit Point: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_b.htm
2020-10-13T08:48:44Z beach: I am guessing that's what ioa is referring to.
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2020-10-13T09:02:09Z pve: How would a simpler unwinding look? Does "one-phase unwinding" exist?
2020-10-13T09:02:18Z phoe: yes
2020-10-13T09:02:19Z ioa: For aheejin in the Wasm question I posted, exceptions with two-phase unwinding are exceptions that first locate the point where they are caught before starting the unwinding/filtering etc process of being thrown.
2020-10-13T09:02:22Z phoe: it's unwind-protect
2020-10-13T09:02:28Z phoe: ioa: I'm preparing a post there
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2020-10-13T09:03:40Z ioa: That's great news phoe! Looking forward to your answer.
2020-10-13T09:04:04Z ioa: But I'm confused about unwind-protect being "one-phase unwinding"
2020-10-13T09:04:45Z phoe: when control leaves the unwind-protect form, no matter how it leaves, the cleanup form is executed, then whatever was happening resumes
2020-10-13T09:04:53Z phoe: that's it
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2020-10-13T09:06:11Z ioa: thank you beach, that is a good link describing the unwinding phases in common-lisp
2020-10-13T09:08:08Z beach: Sure.
2020-10-13T09:08:32Z ioa: phoe the text in clhs 5.2 describes unwind protect causing several things to happen between an exception being thrown and the stack being unwound to the exception's catching point.
2020-10-13T09:08:58Z ioa: one-phase unwinding would be nothing happenning except the unwinding.
2020-10-13T09:09:12Z ioa: *happening.
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2020-10-13T09:09:29Z beach: ioa: I think if you did it in one phase, you would not be able to "abandon" exit points between the signaler and the handler.
2020-10-13T09:09:38Z phoe: oh! I misunderstood the "two-phase unwinding" term then
2020-10-13T09:09:42Z phoe reads more
2020-10-13T09:10:53Z beach: ioa: That makes a difference when an UNWIND-PROTECT does some non-local transfer to an exit point that is between the initial signaler and its handler.
2020-10-13T09:11:02Z beach: In Common Lisp that's undefined behavior.
2020-10-13T09:11:11Z ioa: I'm not sure what you mean beach. Please note that WebAssembly is designed really differently than common-lisp. There are no such things like exit points in Wasm.
2020-10-13T09:11:27Z phoe: beach: I think that's on a different level though
2020-10-13T09:11:35Z beach: Oh, I am not speaking about WebAssembly at all.  Just describing how Common Lisp does it.
2020-10-13T09:11:40Z phoe: oh - OK
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2020-10-13T09:13:11Z phoe: point 1 of 5.2 basically means that cleanup forms can no longer transfer control to exit points that are now in the "middle" - that's UB though, so the burden is on the programmer anyway
2020-10-13T09:13:12Z ioa: Ah, sorry beach, of course. So you are saying that stack unwinding when common-lisp conditions are signalled have definitely more than one phase.
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2020-10-13T09:13:23Z phoe: ioa: yes, but this can be implemented in CL
2020-10-13T09:13:32Z phoe: we do not need to have wasm support for this.
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2020-10-13T09:14:12Z ioa: not sure what you mean phoe
2020-10-13T09:14:30Z phoe: as long as we have dynamic variables, we can undo catch tags, condition handlers, and restarts ourselves
2020-10-13T09:14:37Z phoe: this resolves point 3 of CLHS 5.2
2020-10-13T09:15:06Z phoe: if I understand correctly, then we do not strictly need to implement point 1 of CLHS 5.2 because it's UB anyway and the burden is on the programmer
2020-10-13T09:15:22Z ioa: what's UB? :)
2020-10-13T09:15:26Z phoe: undefined behavior
2020-10-13T09:15:29Z ioa: thanks
2020-10-13T09:15:32Z phoe: this leaves point 2 ("The cleanup clauses of any intervening unwind-protect clauses are evaluated.") and point 4 which performs the real jump
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2020-10-13T09:15:56Z beach: ioa: As phoe points out, all that is needed is special variables and some non-local transfer mechanism.  One hopes that the language has non-local transfers, or it would be pretty much useless for anything but toy programs.
2020-10-13T09:16:17Z phoe: beach: yes, that is what they are discussing over there
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2020-10-13T09:19:56Z ioa: Yes, we are also discussing potential non-local control transfer mechanisms, although please note the "Assembly" in "WebAssembly". The language is not intended to be written directly, but as a compilation target.
2020-10-13T09:20:37Z beach: ioa: Sure, but then you need some control over the dynamic environment.
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2020-10-13T09:21:11Z beach: ioa: I guess having access to the call stack would be enough.
2020-10-13T09:22:02Z ioa: Wasm has a unified call/value stack
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2020-10-13T09:22:31Z ioa: so a frame is an administrative instruction, as is its end, as is a constant, etc
2020-10-13T09:22:55Z ioa: and these all go on the same stack
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2020-10-13T09:25:21Z beach: I think the minimal mechanism required would be something like setjmp/longjmp where you abandon some currently executing functions.
2020-10-13T09:26:04Z phoe: https://gist.github.com/phoe/35e596c3746d8d0ea82aaf1bb51781fc
2020-10-13T09:26:07Z phoe: Please review
2020-10-13T09:27:22Z no-defun-allowed: Is there a missing function name around (let (((lambda () (return-from frobnicate 42)))) ...)?
2020-10-13T09:27:31Z phoe: oh snap
2020-10-13T09:27:33Z phoe: yes, thanks
2020-10-13T09:27:45Z phoe: fixed
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2020-10-13T09:28:35Z ioa: phoe I wasn't aware of this, thanks "the stack is wound further instead of being unwound"
2020-10-13T09:28:41Z phoe: ioa: doh
2020-10-13T09:28:47Z ioa: ?
2020-10-13T09:28:54Z phoe: I was talking about this on the first Online Lisp Meeting :D
2020-10-13T09:29:13Z ioa: Oh I must have missed that insight, sorry.
2020-10-13T09:29:18Z phoe: no problem, just kidding
2020-10-13T09:29:19Z ioa: :)
2020-10-13T09:29:31Z phoe: but, yes, Lisp does error-handling differently
2020-10-13T09:29:32Z beach: ioa: That's the key to doing restarts.
2020-10-13T09:29:55Z phoe: beach: and to the functioning of the Lisp debugger
2020-10-13T09:30:01Z beach: Indeed.
2020-10-13T09:31:11Z beach: Most current languages are deficient in this respect.  It wouldn't surprise me if something like WebAssembly assumed this deficiency, since it is so widespread.
2020-10-13T09:31:36Z ioa: beach - that's why I asked here :)
2020-10-13T09:31:46Z phoe: okay, I've rearranged the things in that post a little bit - it should be cleaner now
2020-10-13T09:32:33Z ioa: "I'll be supporting this issue as a Common Lisp programmer." what do you mean by this phoe?
2020-10-13T09:32:49Z phoe: I should have written "if you need any CL insight I'll be available to answer"
2020-10-13T09:32:59Z ioa: brilliant, thanks
2020-10-13T09:33:47Z ioa: UB is not defined in your post ;)
2020-10-13T09:34:23Z phoe: ioa: fixed
2020-10-13T09:34:59Z no-defun-allowed: "Yes, UB is UB..."
2020-10-13T09:35:00Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: does it look OK now?
2020-10-13T09:35:10Z no-defun-allowed reads
2020-10-13T09:35:15Z phoe: or, anyone else who's taken a look so far
2020-10-13T09:35:50Z no-defun-allowed: Looks good.
2020-10-13T09:35:51Z ioa: I'm worried it's too verbose tbh. aheejin is already aware of unwind-protect, she links to the clhs entry for unwind-protect
2020-10-13T09:35:52Z phoe: is UNWIND-PROTECT equivalent to Java's finally?
2020-10-13T09:35:55Z phoe: because it seems so
2020-10-13T09:35:59Z phoe: yes, I've just seen it
2020-10-13T09:36:16Z ioa: phoe I heard this before, and I guess that is the question at hand
2020-10-13T09:36:44Z no-defun-allowed: Java only has exceptions for NLTC, but basically yes.
2020-10-13T09:37:36Z phoe: hmm
2020-10-13T09:37:40Z phoe: let me try to trim this down then
2020-10-13T09:38:13Z no-defun-allowed: (So try { ... } finally { ...} is compiled like try { ... } catch (Exception e) { ...; throw e; } -- but in a parallel universe where Java had TAGBODY, it'd probably have to obey finally.)
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2020-10-13T09:38:43Z no-defun-allowed: (I'm probably being too pedantic after having read how exceptions are compiled.)
2020-10-13T09:38:45Z ioa: you can call functions in webassembly and there is a `return`instruction  (not a `return-from`, but there is a `br l` (break to label l)).
2020-10-13T09:39:07Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: uh wait a second though
2020-10-13T09:39:11Z phoe: you forgot the no-exception case
2020-10-13T09:39:22Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed I did.
2020-10-13T09:40:05Z ioa: I'm not sure what you are trying to say in the 4th part, this seems very well known
2020-10-13T09:40:18Z ioa: sorry 3rd part
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2020-10-13T09:41:03Z phoe: ioa: I've trimmed the post a little bit
2020-10-13T09:41:34Z no-defun-allowed: I can't think of how to express that in plain Java. But one can also return "early" in the try block, so I wonder how that pans out. 'Tis a silly place.
2020-10-13T09:41:47Z ioa: in fact, in wasm we'd only be interested in a primitive that does this: "If (foo) does not return normally (meaning, a non-local jump outside the unwind-protect form is performed), then, before control leaves the unwind-protect form, (bar) is executed, and then the transfer of control proceeds further."
2020-10-13T09:42:57Z phoe: OK - is the current version of the post more on-topic?
2020-10-13T09:43:16Z ioa: yes phoe, looks good, thank you!
2020-10-13T09:43:48Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: is this good to go now?
2020-10-13T09:44:21Z no-defun-allowed: I think so.
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2020-10-13T09:45:08Z phoe: OK, posting
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2020-10-13T09:45:48Z phoe: thanks for the cooperation, everyone
2020-10-13T09:46:32Z jackdaniel: someone writes wasm cl?
2020-10-13T09:46:46Z phoe: IIUC not yet, but the groundwork is being prepared right now
2020-10-13T09:47:06Z jackdaniel: scl author was advocating for lisp-friendly features in wasm
2020-10-13T09:47:15Z phoe: seems like ioa is doing the same :D
2020-10-13T09:47:29Z jackdaniel: afair he has encountered some pushback, I don't know how much he advocated succesfully
2020-10-13T09:47:57Z ioa: :)
2020-10-13T09:48:50Z jackdaniel: one day operating system will degrade to a single "browser" window, tabs will become floating windows, hardware will implement directly wasm and we'll reach early '80 OS state of the art in glory
2020-10-13T09:49:36Z phoe: jackdaniel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GibiNy4d4gc
2020-10-13T09:49:46Z jackdaniel: (in other words, we'll trade C-descendent unix for JS-descendent googlix)
2020-10-13T09:50:16Z ioa: Of course I am advocating lisp-friendly features everywhere. :) But I keep in mind that Wasm is an Asm, so if CL can be implemented in Asm then it can be implemented in Wasm too. No need to be overly fanatic about it. I just like to write the spec in formulas and then implement it.
2020-10-13T09:50:54Z ioa: jackdaniel hahahaha :D
2020-10-13T09:51:01Z jackdaniel: ioa: I'm not criticizing wasm per se, it is a wonderful improvement over javascript, I keep fingers crossed
2020-10-13T09:51:16Z ioa: :)
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2020-10-13T09:53:55Z ioa: I am quite fond of wasm - the spec is one of my favourite documents, so formal! <3
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2020-10-13T09:57:04Z ioa: jackdaniel, any links to this scl author advocating lisp-friendly features in wasm?
2020-10-13T09:57:17Z phoe: now that you mention it I wonder what happened to scl
2020-10-13T09:57:45Z jackdaniel: let me see, maybe I have it bookmarked somewhere
2020-10-13T09:59:03Z jackdaniel: this is the offspring of that advocacy: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2019/11/multi-value-all-the-wasm/
2020-10-13T09:59:21Z ioa: this is my coworker's doing :)
2020-10-13T09:59:32Z jackdaniel: great :)
2020-10-13T09:59:57Z ioa: oh wait I said that before I clicked
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2020-10-13T10:00:55Z ioa: I meant the SM implementation
2020-10-13T10:01:19Z jackdaniel: ioa: http://web.archive.org/web/20181206050710/http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.steel-bank.devel/19495
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2020-10-13T10:02:21Z ioa: thanks jackdaniel!
2020-10-13T10:02:25Z jackdaniel: sure
2020-10-13T10:02:42Z ioa: here's the post about the SM implementation of multi-value in wasm just in case https://wingolog.org/archives/2020/04/03/multi-value-webassembly-in-firefox-from-1-to-n
2020-10-13T10:03:33Z jackdaniel: I saw it
2020-10-13T10:03:49Z jackdaniel: cool stuff :)
2020-10-13T10:03:59Z ioa: :)
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2020-10-13T10:08:17Z ioa: phoe about "unwind-protect - it is equivalent to Java's finally." is this formal equivalency? Any pointers to this?
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2020-10-13T10:08:59Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/s_unwind.htm: "unwind-protect evaluates protected-form and guarantees that cleanup-forms are executed before unwind-protect exits, whether it terminates normally or is aborted by a control transfer of some kind."
2020-10-13T10:09:14Z phoe: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/exceptions/finally.html: "The finally block always executes when the try block exits. This ensures that the finally block is executed even if an unexpected exception occurs. But finally is useful for more than just exception handling — it allows the programmer to avoid having cleanup code accidentally bypassed by a return, continue, or break."
2020-10-13T10:09:30Z ioa: thanks
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2020-10-13T10:14:05Z ioa: fyi labels and breaks to labels are always nested in wasm. There is no going to arbitrary places.
2020-10-13T10:14:42Z phoe: same in Lisp - you can't go somewhere that is not in the lexical or dynamic scope of whatever you're doing right now
2020-10-13T10:15:20Z phoe: to be more precise: lexical for go/return-from, dynamic for throw and go/return-from closures
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2020-10-13T10:19:52Z jackdaniel: there is a cleanup issue about dynamic extent possible implementations (minimal, medium and something) which discusses closures that escape their dynamic context
2020-10-13T10:20:18Z jackdaniel: i.e (block foo (lambda () (return-from foo)))
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2020-10-13T10:21:17Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss152_w.htm
2020-10-13T10:23:13Z phoe: from what I understand, MINIMAL was adopted
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2020-10-13T10:23:53Z jackdaniel: rather: minimal was clarified, and both are permissible
2020-10-13T10:24:03Z phoe: oh!
2020-10-13T10:24:04Z phoe: Status: proposal MINIMAL, as amended, passed Mar 89 X3J13 by vote of 11-5.
2020-10-13T10:25:12Z jackdaniel: uhm, both were proposed but one was accept, ok
2020-10-13T10:25:13Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2020-10-13T20:34:06Z phoe: beach: we got a YouTube question.
2020-10-13T20:34:11Z phoe: "What stops one from taking the approach of traditional compiler bootstrapping, substituting 'basic' Lisp for machine code? We write all our macros and functions as we normally would, macroexpand them to our 'basic' Lisp subset which has no macro invocations and potentially a reduced set of special forms, and write an interpreter/compiler for the 'basic' Lisp. Then we only need to use a host CL implementation
2020-10-13T20:34:17Z phoe: once for the macroexpansion."
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2020-10-13T22:14:54Z Inline: https://pastebin.com/SfKRCNhX
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2020-10-13T22:17:32Z no-defun-allowed: That's a lot of tabs.
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2020-10-13T22:19:10Z Bike: would you be so courteous as to explain what this is or why you're linking it
2020-10-13T22:19:14Z Inline: sorry the pasting has caused some disalignment
2020-10-13T22:20:16Z Inline: i was getting failures, which were because i was trying to specialize on &optional, which stassats told me over in #sbcl
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2020-10-13T22:21:12Z Bike: okay, and then you pasted it here a few minutes later, because?
2020-10-13T22:21:26Z Inline: so (distance-origin p1) is the same as (distance p1 nil)
2020-10-13T22:21:44Z Inline: Bike: what do you mean ?
2020-10-13T22:21:50Z Inline: am i forbidden todo that ?
2020-10-13T22:21:56Z phoe: no no, more like
2020-10-13T22:22:00Z Bike: I'm just asking what you want help with, or what.
2020-10-13T22:22:02Z phoe: what's the question you have
2020-10-13T22:22:15Z Bike: We can't divine your intent based on just this code.
2020-10-13T22:22:18Z Inline: why should i help, when it's me how needs it maybe ?
2020-10-13T22:22:31Z Inline: whatever bike
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2020-10-13T22:22:55Z Bike: Am i out of line here? I would be happy to try to answer a question but I need to know what the question is.
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2020-10-13T22:23:37Z Inline: the question is already answered over in #sbcl, i just pasted the corrected code over here, because stassats meant it's maybe more related to #lisp
2020-10-13T22:23:47Z Inline: so, there's that
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2020-10-13T22:23:52Z phoe: oh, okay
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2020-10-13T22:24:12Z phoe: ...except I don't think there was a conversation over here related to this code
2020-10-13T22:24:16Z jcowan: Does anyone know of use cases for arrays whose shape includes a zero?  They have no elements, but they are valid.
2020-10-13T22:24:33Z jcowan: (other than vectors)
2020-10-13T22:24:50Z Inline: do you mean sparse arrays ?
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2020-10-13T22:25:06Z phoe: I think he means arrays e.g. of dimensions (3 0 4)
2020-10-13T22:25:19Z no-defun-allowed: Arrays where one dimension is zero, but have more than one dimension.
2020-10-13T22:25:24Z Inline: isn't that sparse too ?
2020-10-13T22:25:34Z phoe: nope, arrays aren't sparse in CL
2020-10-13T22:25:55Z Inline: other then elementwise sparse it's row wise sparse or column wise sparse
2020-10-13T22:25:55Z phoe: this means that the array has 3*0*4 elements inside it
2020-10-13T22:26:01Z Inline: i mean the above
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2020-10-13T22:27:29Z phoe: uhh, no
2020-10-13T22:27:53Z phoe: arrays aren't sparse in CL
2020-10-13T22:28:03Z Inline: yeah
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2020-10-13T22:28:15Z phoe: (array-total-size (make-array '(0 3 4))) ;=> 0
2020-10-13T22:28:20Z Inline: i suppose he asks for some special library which has such functionality or so
2020-10-13T22:28:31Z phoe: jcowan: as for actual use cases... hm
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2020-10-13T22:28:51Z jcowan: Yes, dimensions like 3 0 4
2020-10-13T22:28:58Z phoe: I assume that if one needs to handle user-provided array dimensions then having such arrays would be beneficial
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2020-10-13T22:29:47Z phoe: e.g. if someone handles a situation where each shop can have a given number of each product, each with a given expiration date
2020-10-13T22:29:57Z phoe: so e.g. 10 shops, 10 products, 10 possible expiration dates
2020-10-13T22:30:08Z phoe: all user-input and such
2020-10-13T22:30:11Z jcowan: They can't store anything, though; they are just shapes, which are just lists.
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2020-10-13T22:30:35Z phoe: then we would like a case where we have 0 products which effectively allocates a zero-total-size array
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2020-10-13T22:30:47Z phoe: that's a stupid example but I think it's possible in real situations
2020-10-13T22:30:58Z jcowan: I sure can't think of one.
2020-10-13T22:31:13Z jcowan feels like a post-Roman trying to grasp Arabic numbers with their zero sign.
2020-10-13T22:31:24Z phoe: maybe they are just there to take care of an edge case
2020-10-13T22:31:41Z jcowan: I thought that was what exceptions were for.  :-)
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2020-10-13T22:32:11Z jcowan: I guess it's a generalization of a zero-length vector, which does make sense because vectors are sequences.
2020-10-13T22:32:25Z phoe: I mean, we're now stepping into the zone named "should (make-array '(3 0 4)) signal an error or not"
2020-10-13T22:32:28Z jcowan: (a fortiori, empty strings too)
2020-10-13T22:32:32Z Bike: there are also zero rank arrays, which are silly.
2020-10-13T22:32:47Z phoe: obviously they have a single element though
2020-10-13T22:32:54Z jcowan: Those I can actually understand; they guarantee that the inner product of conformable arrays is an array.
2020-10-13T22:32:55Z Bike: a silly element
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2020-10-13T22:33:09Z Bike: yeah, i wouldn't want them eliminated or anything
2020-10-13T22:33:13Z no-defun-allowed: Those are convenient "boxes", which some people use conses for.
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2020-10-13T22:33:31Z jcowan: Although I would bet that conses have less overhead.
2020-10-13T22:33:38Z no-defun-allowed: But with one element, you don't have to decide whether the CAR or the CDR holds the value. (Obviously the CAR though).
2020-10-13T22:33:38Z Bike: the standard specifically allows zero dimensions, e.g. in the glossary entry for "valid array dimension"
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2020-10-13T22:33:42Z jcowan: even in systems where they are not specially optimized.
2020-10-13T22:33:52Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
2020-10-13T22:33:53Z Bike: "Such a fixnum must be greater than or equal to zero..."
2020-10-13T22:33:54Z jcowan: Right, which is why I asked for use cases.
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2020-10-13T22:34:14Z phoe: I mean, why would (make-array '()) have more elements than (make-array '(0))
2020-10-13T22:34:17Z phoe: that was my first intuition
2020-10-13T22:34:25Z Bike: because the empty product is 1
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2020-10-13T22:34:41Z Bike: but no, i don't know any use cases, other than for empty vectors which you already ruled out
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2020-10-13T22:34:53Z jcowan: so I guess it's just a generalization of that.
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2020-10-13T22:34:57Z phoe: Bike: yes, I understood it after a while
2020-10-13T22:35:03Z Bike: yeah, i'd say it's just for regularity.
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2020-10-13T22:35:42Z Bike: zero dimensions are also explicit in 15.1.1.2. still no detail on why though
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2020-10-13T22:37:18Z jcowan: CLtL is quite uninformative about arrays; mostly just a list of the functions and their domains and ranges.
2020-10-13T22:37:36Z Inline: bah, this sucks, when trying to copy-paste from my console in sbcl repl, the shortcut C-c throws me into the debugger in the repl
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2020-10-13T22:38:10Z phoe: use Ctrl+Shift+C in the terminal
2020-10-13T22:38:16Z Inline: oh
2020-10-13T22:38:17Z phoe: if you have a sane terminal, that is
2020-10-13T22:38:18Z Inline: thank you
2020-10-13T22:38:23Z Inline: i'll try that
2020-10-13T22:38:27Z jcowan: Or Ctrl-Insert, if you have an Insert key
2020-10-13T22:38:29Z phoe: C-c has a different meaning in Unix terminals since it sends a signal
2020-10-13T22:38:31Z Bike: clhs doesn't say much about arrays either
2020-10-13T22:38:57Z jcowan: Standards are intentionally short on rationale, but CLtL has quite a bit of it, especially if you read between the lines.
2020-10-13T22:39:13Z Inline: works, thank you :)
2020-10-13T22:39:38Z Bike: it does say that "internally a multidimensional array is stored as a one-dimensional array", which in my opinion it shouldn't
2020-10-13T22:40:12Z phoe: shouldn't, why?
2020-10-13T22:40:13Z jcowan: It took me a long time to from the older keychords to Ctrl-[XCV].
2020-10-13T22:40:30Z jcowan: It might not be true in specific implementations.
2020-10-13T22:40:32Z Bike: it's mandating an implementation strategy
2020-10-13T22:40:45Z Bike: i mean in practice an implementor can ignore it, but still
2020-10-13T22:41:07Z Inline: i know shift-Insert for pasting, but didn't know Ctrl-Insert for copying
2020-10-13T22:41:23Z Inline: arright, learnt a new thing hehe
2020-10-13T22:41:27Z Bike: compare e.g. with logbitp and stuff, which talk about treating an integer as being in two's complement binary regardless of what the implementation is "actually" doing
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2020-10-13T22:41:45Z jcowan: and Shift-Delete for cutting.
2020-10-13T22:41:50Z Inline: aha
2020-10-13T22:41:53Z Bike: (something that is relevant in practice, since bignums might be sign-magnitude)
2020-10-13T22:44:26Z jcowan: Indeed, GMP and related libraries store the sign by negating the bigit count
2020-10-13T22:45:02Z no-defun-allowed: It would be very strange to not store a multi-dimensional array as a one-dimensional array in row-major order, as displacement exposes that to some extent.
2020-10-13T22:45:37Z Bike: strangeness isn't verboten
2020-10-13T22:45:45Z no-defun-allowed: I suppose not doing that is possible, but it would probably be very hard.
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2020-10-13T22:48:55Z jcowan: Displacement would be awkward in the other reasonable system, vectors-of-vectors(-of...)
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2020-10-13T22:50:19Z no-defun-allowed: A storage vector with column-major order would also be awkward.
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2020-10-13T22:50:56Z jcowan: That's just a transposition, which is an affine transformation, which means it can be made very efficient.
2020-10-13T22:51:25Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
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2020-10-13T22:53:09Z jcowan: because affine transformations are closed, so although you can't find the product in the general case unless you can ijntrospect on functions, you can definitely do it with a given list of transforms
2020-10-13T22:53:41Z jcowan: such as extraction, translation, permutation, currying, reversal, tiling, rotation, and uniform sampling
2020-10-13T22:54:08Z jcowan: to name just eight
2020-10-13T22:55:00Z Inline: not being able to specialize on &optional, is that an implementation thing or a spec thing ?
2020-10-13T22:55:08Z Bike: It is a spec thing.
2020-10-13T22:55:15Z Inline: ok
2020-10-13T22:55:29Z Inline: and you know the rationale behind it ?
2020-10-13T22:55:59Z Bike: Well, for one thing, different methods on the same generic function can hae different defaults for optional parameters.
2020-10-13T22:56:24Z Bike: the generic function itself does not provide a default, so it's not obvious what would be correct to dispatch to.
2020-10-13T22:57:23Z phoe: if you really want to, you can work around this by (defun foo (bar &optional baz) (foo-internal bar baz)) (defgeneric foo-internal (bar baz))
2020-10-13T22:57:34Z phoe: and optionally provide a default argument there
2020-10-13T22:58:09Z aeth: I'll probably wind up abstracting over something like that with my DEFINE-FUNCTION-style macro family.
2020-10-13T22:58:28Z Inline: ok thank you phoe
2020-10-13T22:58:32Z Bike: Being able to provide different behavior for the post-required parameters is very useful, but mostly with &key rather than &optional, e.g. with make-instance
2020-10-13T22:58:34Z aeth: It's a bit complicated because defgeneric/defmethod are two separate things.
2020-10-13T22:59:23Z Bike: also, the syntax might be a little ugly since there's also the suppliedp variable. not that that couldn't be overcome.
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2020-10-13T23:01:30Z aeth: Bike: the syntax I've settled on is (variable default class-or-type suppliedp) where each one is optional after variable. Basically in order of how common it is. And besides, if you supply a class or type, you probably want a default other than nil (or an (error))
2020-10-13T23:02:02Z aeth: (I say class-or-type because define-method would use class there, while define-function uses type there)
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2020-10-14T00:54:02Z Xach got to use (report-bug-in "mutility") and it worked fine
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2020-10-14T02:09:43Z tormball: is there a way to set clisp -modern in .clisprc.lisp?
2020-10-14T02:12:02Z Bike: i haven't used clisp, but it looks like you can replicate the effect with an in-package and setting *print-case*
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2020-10-14T02:13:16Z no-defun-allowed: What's in CS-COMMON-LISP-USER? Does it try to downcase symbol names?
2020-10-14T02:14:17Z Bike: i figured it would have the cl symbols but with lower case names
2020-10-14T02:16:00Z no-defun-allowed: And (not really going to help with CLISP) doesn't...Allegro CL have a "modern" mode like that which makes people hesitate to use strings as symbol name designators?
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2020-10-14T02:22:44Z tormball: *print-case* default is :UPCASE with -modern it is :downcase. But if I setq :downcase I don't have case sensitive variables like with -modern.
2020-10-14T02:25:02Z tormball: Not sure how to look in CS-COMMON-LISP-USER. I'm in the REPL and there are quite a few CS-COMMON-LISP: prefixed values but no CS-COMMON-LISP:USER.
2020-10-14T02:25:40Z no-defun-allowed: The package name is CL-COMMON-LISP-USER; I expect there to be no exported symbols (mirroring CL-USER) though.
2020-10-14T02:26:07Z no-defun-allowed: But (setf *print-case* :downcase) (in-package :cs-common-lisp-user) should replicate it, like Bike suggested.
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2020-10-14T02:35:20Z tormball: (in-package :cs-common-lisp-user) did it. Value of *print-case* doesn't seem to matter. Thank you.
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2020-10-14T02:51:00Z tormball: Actually it only works in REPL or file not in .clisprc
2020-10-14T02:51:55Z tormball: Just noticed -modern breaks tab completion too. Not sure why. system::map-external-symbols: There is no package with name "NIL"
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2020-10-14T03:47:58Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-14T04:07:51Z beach: phoe: As usual, I am unable to understand the question.  I guess, since I don't know what problem it means to solve.
2020-10-14T04:08:25Z tormball: beach: good morning
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2020-10-14T05:03:29Z beach: phoe: I think I figured out where the question was asked, and I will answer it later today.
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2020-10-14T06:32:01Z phoe: beach: YouTube, under the third video for implementing CL
2020-10-14T06:32:17Z beach: Yes, found it.  Thanks!
2020-10-14T06:33:58Z phoe: beach: I have a question. Let's say that I try to call a (block nil (lambda () (return-from nil))).
2020-10-14T06:34:23Z phoe: Under what circumstances must CONTROL-ERROR be signaled, if there are any? Or is it compeltely up to the implementation?
2020-10-14T06:35:19Z beach: You mean when the anonymous function is ultimately invoked?
2020-10-14T06:35:35Z phoe: I mean like (funcall (block nil (lambda () (return-from nil))))
2020-10-14T06:35:44Z beach: Right.
2020-10-14T06:35:48Z phoe: Is this form required to signal a control-error? In what circumstances?
2020-10-14T06:35:54Z beach: As I recall, the standard says it is undefined behavior.
2020-10-14T06:35:59Z phoe: Yes, it is UB
2020-10-14T06:36:05Z phoe: But then the page for control-error says
2020-10-14T06:36:07Z phoe: clhs control-error
2020-10-14T06:36:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_contro.htm
2020-10-14T06:36:18Z phoe: "The errors that result from giving throw a tag that is not active or from giving go or return-from a tag that is no longer dynamically available are of type control-error."
2020-10-14T06:36:51Z beach: I think that if the implementation decides to detect the situation, that's the error it must signal.
2020-10-14T06:37:01Z beach: But there is no obligation to detect it.
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2020-10-14T06:38:08Z phoe: OK - thanks
2020-10-14T06:38:13Z beach: Sure.
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2020-10-14T08:13:42Z flip214: Can I tell PRINT-TO-STRING to start each new leaf in a tree (normal CONSes) in a new line?
2020-10-14T08:13:59Z flip214: currently it puts multiple lists in a line, if they're short enough.
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2020-10-14T08:26:09Z phoe: I think you'd need to define your own pprint dispatch for that
2020-10-14T08:26:51Z flip214: phoe: thanks, feared that already ;)
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2020-10-14T09:18:53Z iissaacc: Can anyone point me to where I could learn to make an emacs keybind to run some CL code in the SLIME repl?
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2020-10-14T09:26:50Z heisig: iissaacc: You mean something like (define-key global-map (kbd "C-c x") 'slime-eval-defun) ?
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2020-10-14T09:36:13Z iissaacc: I want to make an #'in-package keybind, so I guess i need to define a new 'slime-eval-foo
2020-10-14T09:36:29Z iissaacc: thanks heisig ill look at the slime source
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2020-10-14T10:19:09Z _death: slime-repl supports shortcuts, so you can type ",in RET foo RET" in the repl and it will set the current package to foo
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2020-10-14T10:22:00Z h4ck3r9696: Anyone familiar with usockets here ?
2020-10-14T10:23:43Z beach: Ask your question and you will find out.
2020-10-14T10:23:59Z h4ck3r9696: How do I do multithreading with it
2020-10-14T10:24:15Z h4ck3r9696: Or even select ?
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2020-10-14T10:28:22Z no-defun-allowed: (usocket:wait-for-input <list of sockets> :ready-only t) will do something like poll or select.
2020-10-14T10:29:34Z h4ck3r9696: ok thanks
2020-10-14T10:29:55Z no-defun-allowed: On SBCL, that will eventually select().
2020-10-14T10:30:50Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL on a POSIX system, rather, Windows does its own thing.
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2020-10-14T10:34:28Z no-defun-allowed: You may also be interested in cl-async if you want to do asynchronous code, but I would learn synchronous sockets first, so you don't lose your mind picking up sockets and async code (if you aren't familiar with either).
2020-10-14T10:36:22Z h4ck3r9696: Can I easly integrate it with usockets? I don't think there are a lot of examples online.
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2020-10-14T10:38:37Z no-defun-allowed: Not easily. usocket is synchronous and blocking (meaning it allows for sequential code that you can read staying in one piece), and cl-async is non-blocking and asynchronous (meaning you get a lot of "callbacks" and you have basically reinvented Node.js in your Lisp image).
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2020-10-14T10:40:31Z h4ck3r9696: cl-async seems to be what i'm looking for. Thanks!
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2020-10-14T10:42:26Z no-defun-allowed: Plain old multithreading is also possible using bordeaux-threads; oh dear, they've left already.
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2020-10-14T11:24:42Z dlowe: one of these days I'd really like to see a lisp implementation with a fiber/thread scheduler runtime.
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2020-10-14T11:25:36Z flip214: dlowe: that's a real hard problem... priorities, fair scheduling, assignment to pthreads, ...
2020-10-14T11:25:50Z dlowe: yeah, very hard
2020-10-14T11:25:57Z flip214: "hard" as in "needs lots of code that's already done in your OS scheduler"
2020-10-14T11:26:04Z flip214: and most probably "done better" ;)
2020-10-14T11:26:49Z dlowe: I can tell you from experience that my OS scheduler gets pretty unhappy with 100k+ threads
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2020-10-14T11:27:14Z dlowe: or did.  Maybe it's better now.
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2020-10-14T11:28:09Z kelamir[m]: comp.lang.lisp is now available from https://www.usenetarchives.com/threads.php?id=comp.lang.lisp&p=0
2020-10-14T11:28:32Z flip214: dlowe: yeah, but do you think your own would be much better, apart from 1 or 2 special cases that you care about?
2020-10-14T11:28:36Z no-defun-allowed: CMUCL had green threads, but that was a common survival strategy when POSIX threads weren't around (also seen in early Java).
2020-10-14T11:29:14Z flip214: I did work a few years on a c library doing fibers on pthreads... and it was no easy work
2020-10-14T11:29:32Z dlowe: flip214: my personal own? no, I have no expertise in schedulers.
2020-10-14T11:29:50Z no-defun-allowed: flip214: You just need to context switch faster than your kernel, which should be easy given you don't have to fiddle with the MMU.
2020-10-14T11:30:14Z no-defun-allowed: I say "just"...
2020-10-14T11:30:51Z flip214: no-defun-allowed: well, if you need the kernel to find out whether it makes sense to switch threads (I/O or other events), it doesn't make much difference
2020-10-14T11:31:36Z flip214: ie. doing select() and then switching to some fiber stack isn't that much different from just blocking on read() and letting the kernel to its thing
2020-10-14T11:32:26Z flip214: yeah, in principle user-space switching could save lots of CPU and memory.... but lots of things needed for a sound implementation
2020-10-14T11:32:36Z dlowe: one thing fibers have that is unambiguously positive about fibers is signal handling
2020-10-14T11:32:45Z no-defun-allowed: I think it worked well for Erlang and Go.
2020-10-14T11:32:51Z dlowe: haha, I'm not woken up yet
2020-10-14T11:32:58Z flip214: dlowe: as in unix signals??
2020-10-14T11:33:03Z dlowe: yeah
2020-10-14T11:33:46Z flip214: what's that much better? all signals blocked, exactly one pthread that gets all of them
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2020-10-14T11:40:54Z dlowe: the actual handling of the signal is made more complicated. It's not unsolvable, just annoying.
2020-10-14T11:41:24Z dlowe: yeah, I'm thinking of Erlang and Go
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2020-10-14T11:43:33Z _death: this reminds me of https://github.com/aarvid/Actors
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2020-10-14T11:44:45Z dlowe: I've seen better READMEs
2020-10-14T11:45:07Z _death: the linked reddit thread has more info
2020-10-14T11:45:34Z dlowe: ah, thanks
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2020-10-14T11:47:01Z dlowe: sure sounds good
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2020-10-14T13:38:28Z sm2n: dlowe, termite scheme
2020-10-14T13:38:48Z semz: this is possibly a cffi noob question, but is there a way to dig through a chain of foreign structs (think a->b.c->d) such that: 1. there are no allocations except for maybe the final result   2. the solution isn't to calculate the offsets by hand every time?
2020-10-14T13:39:38Z semz: it's fine if it only works for structs that are directly embedded, though if it can go across pointers that'd be even better
2020-10-14T13:40:09Z dlowe: sm2n: I'm aware of it.  Not common lisp.
2020-10-14T13:41:54Z sm2n: ah, true
2020-10-14T13:43:03Z dlowe: also, it looks daed.
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2020-10-14T13:44:23Z sm2n: also true
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2020-10-14T13:51:31Z mfiano: What's a good test you can come up with for checking if an integer is one of [4,7,10,13,..,∞] and not [0-3,5-6,8-9,11-12,..,∞]? I currently have (and (> i 1) (= 1 (mod i 3))).
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2020-10-14T13:52:17Z beach: Looks good.
2020-10-14T13:52:46Z Alfr: mfiano, a cl integer is never \infty .
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2020-10-14T13:54:31Z mfiano: Right, then replace with most-positive-fixnum if you didn't know I meant mathematically zero plus the whole number set
2020-10-14T13:54:55Z Bike: your test seems like the obvious way to do it.
2020-10-14T13:55:15Z mfiano: Ok thanks
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2020-10-14T13:57:34Z Alfr shrugs. Wasn't a really similar question asked a week or two ago?
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2020-10-14T13:58:21Z mfiano: and I stupidly used the answer without much thought, when it was wrong. The above is correct
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2020-10-14T13:59:54Z mfiano: Writing tests after 2 weeks of coding a new project discovered the problem.
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2020-10-14T15:33:14Z _death: exchanging the conjuncts may be a bit faster
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2020-10-14T16:52:11Z pxpxp: Does anyone have experience with hunchentoot session management? I'm trying to use sessions only through cookies, not URL rewriting. But in my minimal example here (https://pastebin.com/iJEcD9rv), hunchentoot does URL rewriting even though it also correctly sets a cookie (seen from the developer tools): after logging in, I see an unwanted "?hunchentoot-session=..." in the URL.
2020-10-14T16:52:40Z pxpxp: This happens even with my attempt to set *rewrite-for-session-urls* to nil
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2020-10-14T17:40:35Z flip214: pxpxp: the documentation says  "Once a request handler has called START-SESSION, Hunchentoot uses either cookies or (if the client doesn't send the cookies back) rewrites URLs"
2020-10-14T17:40:47Z flip214: do you see incoming cookies in HT?
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2020-10-14T17:44:56Z sydney_locker: i suck dick
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2020-10-14T17:45:31Z Cthulhux: good.
2020-10-14T17:45:41Z pxpxp: I've looked at the packets with wireshark. On submission of the login form, the reply is a 302 Moved Temporarily, to new location: http://localhost:4242/?hunchentoot-session=<cookie> and also a Set-Cookie to this cookie. Then my client dutifully sends back the cookie. But I understand why hunchentoot does it this way: if the user didn't send back the cookie, the session would be lost.
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2020-10-14T17:46:54Z pxpxp: However I thought setting *rewrite-for-session-urls* to nil would make the server send the cookie but not redirect to a URL containing it.
2020-10-14T17:47:02Z edgar-rft: sydney_locker: better eat cookie! Om nom nom nom.
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2020-10-14T17:50:56Z mfiano: YOu might be able to look at what clack's hunchentoot backend does. I know I've never seen it use GET query parameters for cookies.
2020-10-14T17:50:57Z pxpxp: So I'll probably only have the URL "polluted" just after login (then when I click on a link, hunchentoot knows I'm sending back the cookies and everything is fine). Still, I'd like to avoid this if possible.
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2020-10-14T17:51:57Z pxpxp: Okay I'll have a look
2020-10-14T17:52:28Z mfiano: Might even be worth developing for clack so you can switch out the server in production without any server-specific code changes
2020-10-14T17:52:36Z flip214: pxpxp: I can reproduce.
2020-10-14T17:52:44Z mfiano: Or any for that matter, just a keyword swap
2020-10-14T17:52:45Z flip214: the REDIRECT function
2020-10-14T17:52:54Z flip214: takes an ADD-SESSION-ID
2020-10-14T17:53:00Z flip214: that you could set to T manually
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2020-10-14T17:53:52Z flip214: then it works
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2020-10-14T17:55:01Z flip214: otherwise the ?ht-s=... gets added, unless you already have a cookie or provide a more-complete url
2020-10-14T17:55:14Z flip214: pxpxp:
2020-10-14T17:55:15Z flip214:         (hunchentoot:redirect "/"
2020-10-14T17:55:18Z flip214:                               :add-session-id nil))
2020-10-14T17:55:20Z flip214:       (hunchentoot:redirect "/login"
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2020-10-14T17:55:23Z flip214:                             :add-session-id nil)))
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2020-10-14T17:56:08Z pxpxp: It works!! Thanks!
2020-10-14T17:58:51Z pxpxp: mfiano: I've considered Clack and I understand that it's probably a superior solution, but as a beginner I decided to go for the project with good documentation (I guess this might be a frequent debate?)
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2020-10-14T18:21:08Z jasom: pxpxp: the choice of hunchentoot is fine; mfiano was suggesting you look at the clack code that interfaces with hunchentoot to figure out how this can be done, since we know that clack can do this with hunchentoot
2020-10-14T18:21:51Z jasom: pxpxp: however I suspect that clack does not use hunchentoot's session management at all, so that's probably a dead-end
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2020-10-14T18:22:48Z mfiano: Right, I was also noting that it _might_ be worth it to build on top of clack instead of hunchentoot directly, for the benefits that provides, and if you can't do it otherwise. Depends how invested you are already, etc, but it is an option.
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2020-10-14T18:33:17Z jasom: Also the builtin session logic in hunchentoot looks questionable from a security point of view
2020-10-14T18:34:42Z jasom: at least it's md5ing twice that's better than it could be
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2020-10-14T18:37:31Z jasom: and you can plug the session-verify, and inherit from session to use something more obviously correct
2020-10-14T18:39:03Z jasom: actually you can't do what I just said because regenerate-session-cookie-value is not generic nor is stringify-session.  That's slightly annoying
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2020-10-14T18:43:29Z jasom: pxpxp: try (setf hunchentoot:*content-types-for-url-rewrote* nil) ?
2020-10-14T18:43:33Z jasom: pxpxp: try (setf hunchentoot:*content-types-for-url-rewrite* nil) ?
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2020-10-14T18:44:22Z jasom: pxpxp: that will completely disable the url rewriting if I read the code correctly
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2020-10-14T18:50:15Z pxpxp: jasom: no, it doesn't seem to work...
2020-10-14T18:51:51Z pxpxp: (if I remove the :add-session-id nil and only (setf hunchentoot:*content-types-for-url-rewrite* nil) once on server startup)
2020-10-14T18:53:15Z jasom: pxpxp: apparently there's also hunchentoot:*rewrite-for-session-urls* which is probably the better way anyways; I'll try with a quick test
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2020-10-14T18:56:03Z asarch: Use Caveman2
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2020-10-14T18:56:38Z jasom: (setf hunchentoot:*rewrite-for-session-urls* nil) ;; this works for my quick test
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2020-10-14T18:59:04Z jasom: my quick test was (define-easy-handler (foo :uri "/foo") () (start-session) (redirect "/bar"))
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2020-10-14T19:52:04Z pxpxp: jasom: interesting, it doesn't for me (I already had this line in my initial question)
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2020-10-14T20:21:44Z dbotton__: not sure if my question about generics posted
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2020-10-14T20:22:49Z dbotton__: is there a reason examples of clos use a defgeneric when it is automatically generated on first defmethod?
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2020-10-14T20:29:38Z no-defun-allowed: It's considered better style, and you need a DEFGENERIC to use a non-standard method combination or other settings.
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2020-10-14T20:43:51Z dbotton: ok thanks
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2020-10-14T21:19:54Z Bike: or if you have interesting keyword argument behavior
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2020-10-14T21:39:46Z dbotton: i
2020-10-14T21:40:19Z dbotton: exceptions I understand. Was trying to understand the simple examples
2020-10-14T21:40:36Z dbotton: I guess just a style issue
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2020-10-14T21:41:37Z dbotton: if there were header files I guess would make more sense
2020-10-14T21:42:31Z dbotton: but seems like dividing spec vs implementation details not common in Lisp
2020-10-14T21:42:52Z no-defun-allowed: And you usually see DEFGENERIC in definitions of a protocol, as well as defining protocol classes.
2020-10-14T21:44:53Z Bike: it can vary. beach, for example, likes to have a separate protocol definition, like this https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/Cleavir/CST-to-AST/generic-functions.lisp
2020-10-14T21:48:16Z no-defun-allowed: My code usually has protocol files, but they're probably not as clean as beach-style, as it also contains default implementations.
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2020-10-14T21:48:50Z aeth: I usually put defgeneric, defconstant, etc., at the very top of the first relevant file, and then the other non-defun/defmethod defines like deftype/defclass/defstruct right below them
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2020-10-14T21:55:16Z aeth: Often it makes sense to e.g. have a file full of just define-condition or a file full of just defconstant or whatever, but those are usually larger projects, which are rare. I could see myself having a file full of defgeneric, but it would have to be a pretty large application
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2020-10-14T22:34:41Z phantomics: Just checking, was someone here talking about problems with cl-tcod?
2020-10-14T22:38:11Z phoe: phantomics: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1602237980#1602237980
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2020-10-14T22:39:12Z phantomics: Thanks phoe
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2020-10-15T02:59:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-15T03:44:39Z pillton: Good morning young sir.
2020-10-15T03:45:07Z beach: Hey, so you are back to stay?
2020-10-15T03:47:45Z pillton: I am going to try and be a regular. I miss the discussions and the references that come up.
2020-10-15T03:48:14Z beach: I understand.
2020-10-15T03:48:15Z pillton: e.g. I don't know who recommended "The Art of Multiprocessing Programming" but thank you. I really enjoyed it.
2020-10-15T03:48:53Z pillton: The Art of Multiprocessor Programming.
2020-10-15T03:49:11Z beach: Speaking of books, can I assume you know that phoe's book on the condition system is now (or soon?) available on Apress?
2020-10-15T03:49:25Z pillton: I was surprised to read that you didn't like AMOP.
2020-10-15T03:49:29Z pillton: No! I did not.
2020-10-15T03:50:21Z beach: Me (about AMOP)?  Did I say that?
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2020-10-15T03:51:04Z pillton: "It is not easy to understand even for Lispers.  I had two attempts that I abandoned."
2020-10-15T03:51:13Z pillton: Perhaps I got the context wrong.
2020-10-15T03:51:32Z beach: That's doesn't mean I don't like it.  It just means that I was not smart enough.
2020-10-15T03:52:39Z beach: It discusses hard stuff.  Knowing Common Lisp is not enough to understand it.
2020-10-15T03:52:53Z pillton: Yes it does, but I find the front section quite good.
2020-10-15T03:53:20Z beach: Yes, once I was smart enough to understand it, I appreciate it very much.
2020-10-15T03:53:43Z beach: There are some quirks of course, but that's to be expected.
2020-10-15T03:53:52Z pillton: The discussion about syntactic, glue and programmatic layers really resonated with me. A lot of what I write follows that design pattern.
2020-10-15T03:54:11Z beach: I see, yes.
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2020-10-15T04:13:29Z borei: good morning/afternoon
2020-10-15T04:13:41Z no-defun-allowed: Hello borei.
2020-10-15T04:15:12Z borei: quick question  - if i do foreign-alloc within lisp function and i don't do foreign-free - im getting memory leak ?
2020-10-15T04:15:45Z no-defun-allowed: Correct.
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2020-10-15T04:16:29Z borei: eventually statement is a bit wide - lisp GC doesn't track any foreign allocations.
2020-10-15T04:16:56Z beach: borei: It couldn't.
2020-10-15T04:17:13Z borei: cool.
2020-10-15T04:17:16Z beach: borei: A typical Common Lisp garbage collector will move objects.
2020-10-15T04:17:34Z beach: borei: And that would break most foreign code.
2020-10-15T04:18:22Z beach: borei: It is much safer and easier to write your programs in Common Lisp.
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2020-10-15T04:20:10Z borei: yep, totally agree. im working on the rados client, which depends on librados - which is C-library, so there will be pretty big portion of code dealing with for low level memory operation.
2020-10-15T04:20:59Z borei: was looking to do pure lisp implementation for the client - but im not there yet. Too complex.
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2020-10-15T06:43:25Z flip214: Can I get swank to expand MACROLETs as well?
2020-10-15T06:43:55Z flip214: oh, it _gets_ encoded, just the MACROLET form itself is left in
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2020-10-15T07:37:28Z adlai is currently here for the purpose of condition-handling against https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues/1917
2020-10-15T07:38:02Z adlai: scalpl is not officially unmaintained, thus, it is reasonable to close the issue, having denied the request, if that is the distributor's intent.
2020-10-15T07:39:27Z adlai: the primary purpose for that removal request is, for lack of a better name, "defensive unlicensing"
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2020-10-15T07:40:18Z adlai: in case anyone is worried, the code is not covered by patents; and there is a significant, although low, probability that certain copies of it will soon be covered by aggressively copyleft licenses.
2020-10-15T07:40:45Z adlai: thus, I wish to save anyone who automatically mirrors the default dist a massive headache, involving lots of unsolicited paperwork.
2020-10-15T07:41:40Z adlai: ... and if you ever include me in your software development process, please consider inviting your lawyer to my job interview.
2020-10-15T07:42:01Z adlai: |#
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2020-10-15T08:48:57Z adlai: https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/lisp/2020-10-15#28144452 << pillton, I once heard a theory claiming a paradoxical effect, wherein the surprise bestsellers that were failed by several editors, yet benefitted from -- grey-hat byte-stuffing, for lack of words -- still get incredible reviews because the critics just can't get past the tedia
2020-10-15T08:51:12Z adlai: ; although that does not imply that the book is as terrible as you'd expect, from a glowing review by a paid professional critic.
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2020-10-15T11:43:08Z Xach: adlai: why is the license changing?
2020-10-15T11:52:50Z phoe: I see that scalpl is in the public license, according to its current ASD file
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2020-10-15T12:35:06Z jackdaniel: let's say taht my condition inherits from simpe-error and adds a new slot/initarg foo/:foo, is there a way to propagate value of foo to :format arguments? (without assuming that condition is not a standard class)
2020-10-15T12:35:18Z jackdaniel: :format-arguments
2020-10-15T12:35:22Z jackdaniel: s/taht/that/
2020-10-15T12:36:05Z jackdaniel: (of course not by the caller of make-condition/error in the place where the condition is defined)
2020-10-15T12:36:19Z jackdaniel: s/error in/error, but in/
2020-10-15T12:36:31Z phoe: propagate, as in...? you want to add that to the beginning/end of that list?
2020-10-15T12:37:42Z jackdaniel: as in (define-condition foobar ((foo :initarg :foo)) (:default-initargs :format-control "foo ~s not found" :format-arguments (list <whatever-was-passed-as-:foo>)))
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2020-10-15T12:38:32Z jackdaniel: normally I'd do that in the after method of initialize-instance
2020-10-15T12:39:46Z phoe: AFAIK you need a custom constructor for that, so, (defun make-foobar (foo) (make-condition 'foobar :foo foo :format-arguments (list foo) ...))
2020-10-15T12:40:10Z phoe: unless you want to write code for all implementations that are not SBCL
2020-10-15T12:40:28Z jackdaniel: sounds good ,)
2020-10-15T12:40:30Z jackdaniel: thanks
2020-10-15T12:41:00Z phoe: I mean, setting portability aside for a moment, you can use INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER on a condition object but only if you use MAKE-INSTANCE instead of MAKE-CONDITION
2020-10-15T12:41:04Z phoe: this works even on SBCL
2020-10-15T12:41:34Z jackdaniel: conforming code can't call make-instance for conditions
2020-10-15T12:41:40Z phoe: but I assume that you want to write portable code, at which point, yes
2020-10-15T12:41:49Z jackdaniel: s/portable/conforming/ ,)
2020-10-15T12:41:59Z phoe: yep
2020-10-15T12:44:29Z phoe: we could try to turn this behavior (MAKE-CONDITION that obeys the MOP initialization protocol) into an implementation extension and then complain at SBCL that CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL, CLISP, LW, and ACL already support it
2020-10-15T12:44:44Z phoe: but I've tried, and failed, at that task in the past
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2020-10-15T12:47:08Z adlai: Xach: a potential collaborator wants to use the AGPL; there is a remote possibility that chanl, which is a dependency, will be the subject of patent trolling lawsuits after I, and a potential collaborator, do an unhealthy amount of studying from various open-source implementations of similar ideas.
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2020-10-15T12:47:49Z adlai: there should be an "and" after the semicolon there; those are two separate instances of the risk of patent trolling going from zero to epsilon.
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2020-10-15T12:48:44Z adlai is tempted, around the two-thirds likelihood, to add some sorta "Please neither copyleft nor copyright your proposed contributions", although this is quite off-topic for here.
2020-10-15T12:49:39Z adlai: ultimately, what seems best to me right now is for scalpl itself to be outside of the default dist, although it should not require any software outside of the default dist.
2020-10-15T12:50:20Z adlai: as I've mentioned before, the current code is also replete with practices ranging from mediocre to worst.
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2020-10-15T13:06:31Z adlai should also take about a decade or few to get enough familiarity with the retail investor platforms so that scalpl can speak the protocol of at least one regular stock exchange
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2020-10-15T13:08:20Z adlai: so far, it has been mostly speaking to various 'greysuit' digital currency exchanges, during the happy years before they get love letters from government agencies; it is a fun game, and quite useful for a certain class of people, although still - quite a narrow niche.
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2020-10-15T13:21:39Z adlai: phoe: I explicitly wrote "public domain", and never included any copyright notice in the scalpl files, because I do not consider that tool an innovation, by this point in human history.
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2020-10-15T13:23:55Z adlai: if the specific names of classes that I divined out of smoke, coffee grounds, and conversations with my dog, along with the various inconsistencies of imprecise arithmetic found in that repository, happen to be considered an invention... that's someone else's problem :)
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2020-10-15T14:56:24Z dbotton_: phoe - will your book come out with a kindle edition when it is released in Nov? (I want to get a copy but want digital)
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2020-10-15T14:58:01Z phoe: dbotton_: I have no idea
2020-10-15T14:58:21Z phoe: there is an electronic version but I have no idea if it's kindle-compatible
2020-10-15T14:58:35Z phoe: seems like it will be there
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2020-10-15T14:58:52Z phoe: annnnnnnnd they've moved it to November, oh bother
2020-10-15T14:59:19Z dbotton_: I don't care which fromat just that can read on a screen :)
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2020-10-15T14:59:40Z dbotton_: otherwise have to cut and scan and I don't like doing that and wasting a book
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2020-10-15T15:00:24Z dbotton_: I look forward to reading
2020-10-15T15:00:26Z dbotton_: it
2020-10-15T15:01:33Z edgar-rft: dbotton_: you could glue the paper onto a screen if that helps
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2020-10-15T15:03:30Z dbotton_: the issue is carrying it around and magnification
2020-10-15T15:03:49Z dbotton_: glue would get in way of the other books I am reading too
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2020-10-15T15:11:20Z adlai: of course, I forgot that other hard problem: "... and the baud rate of the patent-pending low-power high-contrast pixel-based paper-mimicking anisotropic crystal array"
2020-10-15T15:13:12Z adlai: phoe: the publisher is handling sales of the initial printings?
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2020-10-15T16:26:34Z adlai: well here's a cool argument, if there ever was one: https://github.com/fukamachi/event-emitter/pull/11#issue-471842984
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2020-10-15T16:29:40Z adlai is deep within "usual approach useless here" territory; "fail early, often" + condition system = good thing; lighter diff = good, along different ethics; maintainer ... has not abandoned lisp, although, is busy.
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2020-10-15T16:32:18Z adlai: is github user Zulu-Inuoe currently present?
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2020-10-15T16:34:50Z adlai has edited the unwitting competitor, "pull/8",  to remove the link to the author of the issue reporting the problem, to minimize the number of links.
2020-10-15T16:35:54Z adlai: the author is still named in the commit message itself, and is likely to receive an automated notification if and when either one of the pull requests is accepted.
2020-10-15T16:37:44Z adlai: I intentionally do not include the author's name in these messages, to avoid a distracting notification; the author can hunt down this conversation in the maze of automated notifications, if the issue is worth voting upon.
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2020-10-15T16:40:08Z adlai: furthermore, if my pull request is preferred over Zulu-Inuoe's primarily due to the commit message, instead of the code itself, I will be significantly less likely to perform such actions again.
2020-10-15T16:40:35Z adlai: this is called, as the old shootouts encouraged, "Code as you would professionally."
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2020-10-15T17:10:35Z phoe: dbotton_: oh! ebooks will be there
2020-10-15T17:10:53Z phoe: I just wonder if it's pdf-only or also epub/mobi/kindle... should be all of them
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2020-10-15T17:24:47Z dbotton__: phoe great, just no presale option on amazon, so hopefully will be there mid-nov when book comes out
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2020-10-15T17:26:06Z dbotton__: What is the easiest gui library to use to do some playing with on windows? starting to work on so less trivial things to bring me to speed
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2020-10-15T17:33:35Z phoe: dbotton__: there's presale on apress
2020-10-15T17:33:41Z phoe: also, I'll recommend qtools
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2020-10-15T17:35:19Z dbotton__: thinks i am in england...
2020-10-15T17:35:43Z phoe: thinks I am in Spain
2020-10-15T17:35:49Z phoe: (I'm in Poland)
2020-10-15T17:36:41Z dbotton__: won't let me do presale but says will be there min nov
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2020-10-15T18:18:00Z rpg: @phoe: for some reason when I googled your book, the site also thought I was in Spain.  I suspect it has something to do with the redirection from Google.
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2020-10-15T18:18:53Z phoe: rpg: possibly, hm
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2020-10-15T18:36:29Z narodnik: hello I'm learning lisp new
2020-10-15T18:36:32Z narodnik: enjoying it so far
2020-10-15T18:36:44Z narodnik: how can I turn an s-expr into a list with racket?
2020-10-15T18:36:53Z narodnik: I tried s-exp-to-string but it errors
2020-10-15T18:37:42Z narodnik: s-exp-to-list sorry
2020-10-15T18:38:13Z Xach: narodnik: sorry, but this channel is only for common lisp
2020-10-15T18:38:21Z narodnik: i also tried (list '(1 2 3))
2020-10-15T18:38:27Z narodnik: ahh ok
2020-10-15T18:38:45Z Xach: I don't know what's available for racket-specific help, but I think there is a #scheme channel
2020-10-15T18:38:49Z narodnik: is there a reason I should study common lisp instead?
2020-10-15T18:38:51Z narodnik: thanks
2020-10-15T18:39:45Z Xach: I prefer Common Lisp to Scheme, but I didn't try Scheme very much before switching.
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2020-10-15T19:12:37Z _death: so it appears cffi now takes responsibility for defining a size_t-compatible type :size.. nice
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2020-10-15T19:13:38Z semz: that's really good
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2020-10-15T19:29:52Z luis: _death: another long overdue thing someone should add to cffi is an API to zero memory
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2020-10-15T19:37:20Z _death: yeah, memset and memmove (or fill/replace if you like ;) equivalents would be nice
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2020-10-15T19:39:09Z _death: but these can easily be defined by a user.. while size_t needs a grovel (although it looks like the current implementation makes "pretty safe bets")
2020-10-15T19:41:18Z jmercouris: wouldn't it be nice if C didn't exist, no more of this FFI nonsense
2020-10-15T19:41:26Z jmercouris: \/rant
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2020-10-15T20:02:27Z phoe: jmercouris: another language would emerge in its place
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2020-10-15T20:02:54Z phoe: or rather, not the language - a FFI specification
2020-10-15T20:03:45Z jmercouris: the ABI is OK
2020-10-15T20:03:55Z jmercouris: what I don't like is the prevalent usage of it, and all the problems it leads to
2020-10-15T20:04:04Z phoe: I know, right
2020-10-15T20:04:16Z jmercouris: C is fine when you MUST be on the bleeding edge of performance and if you are a genius like Dennis Ritchie
2020-10-15T20:04:32Z jmercouris: for the rest of us who can't program in SED, it leads to buggy terrible code
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2020-10-15T20:24:09Z brj: narodism: you can try to ask around on Racket's slack, lots of friendly folks there
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2020-10-15T20:32:25Z narodism: thanks brj
2020-10-15T20:34:01Z sts-q: narodism: There is a #racket channel, here at freenode. It's logs are there:  https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/racket/2020-10-15
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2020-10-15T20:37:25Z sts-q: Oh, i see you already arrived! :)
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2020-10-15T21:02:50Z Xach: Are the CFFI changes in a release now?
2020-10-15T21:04:51Z aramaya: can I find a kind of lisp manpages ?
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2020-10-15T21:05:12Z phoe: aramaya: the CLHS, most likely
2020-10-15T21:05:23Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/
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2020-10-15T21:17:59Z _death: Xach: the commit is from today (although it was authored a while ago).. I will modify my public libraries accordingly in a few months from now ;)
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2020-10-15T21:19:40Z Xach: _death: do you think the changes are likely to break any current cffi-using code?
2020-10-15T21:20:02Z Xach: if someone is, say, :use-ing cffi, maybe a new name conflict? (don't know cffi well enough to know if this is likely)
2020-10-15T21:20:47Z _death: Xach: no, assuming people don't give keywords names to their defctypes
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2020-10-15T21:21:54Z Xach: cool
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2020-10-16T02:59:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-16T06:19:49Z TMA: Good morning.
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2020-10-16T06:26:07Z beach: Hello TMA.
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2020-10-16T09:50:36Z pve: Hi! If I have a generic function "whitespacep" and compare it with another, "make-whitespace-predicate", which returns a function that recognizes whitespace, I get these results:
2020-10-16T09:50:41Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2082
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2020-10-16T09:51:31Z pve: Am I testing this correctly?
2020-10-16T09:52:11Z X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
2020-10-16T09:52:16Z no-defun-allowed: That is quite possible, yes.
2020-10-16T09:52:18Z beach: It is always tricky to do performance analyses on such small functions.
2020-10-16T09:52:56Z pve: I'm mostly interested in whether make-whitespace-predicate "should" be faster
2020-10-16T09:53:12Z pve: I feel it should, since there is no dispatch involved
2020-10-16T09:53:25Z no-defun-allowed: whitespacep would perform method dispatch every time it is called, whereas make-whitespace-predicate only performs dispatch once. For such a small function, the runtime of method dispatch might be comparable to the runtime of your method.
2020-10-16T09:53:55Z pve: right
2020-10-16T09:53:57Z beach: no-defun-allowed: But the generic function is faster.
2020-10-16T09:54:22Z aeth: in SBCL, generic functions tend to "warm up" iirc
2020-10-16T09:54:30Z aeth: the first run is more expensive iirc
2020-10-16T09:55:04Z beach: Oh, sorry, misread the output.
2020-10-16T09:55:13Z no-defun-allowed: beach: Are you sure? I'm reading the opposite: test-1 invokes a generic function and takes 1.5 seconds, and test-2 does not and takes 0.6 seconds.
2020-10-16T09:55:17Z no-defun-allowed: Okay.
2020-10-16T09:55:26Z beach must be tired.
2020-10-16T09:55:43Z aeth: Hmm... Not noticably, though. (time (test-1)) (time (test-1)) has the second one faster, but not by much.
2020-10-16T09:56:45Z no-defun-allowed: No stress - it's Friday (evening after an electrical engineering exam here).
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2020-10-16T09:58:57Z flip214: pve: if you test via SBCL, I like to compare the cycle counts.
2020-10-16T09:59:34Z pve: flip214: ok, seems reasonable
2020-10-16T10:07:47Z pve: is there a way to tell the compiler "I think I know what I'm doing, use only this whitespacep method and skip the dispatch"?
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2020-10-16T10:09:16Z flip214: GET compares the INDICATOR via EQL, and that can't be changed, right? So if I did (SETF (GET 'sym '(text :de)) "foo") I can't use GET to retrieve but have to use SYMBOL-PLIST?!
2020-10-16T10:09:28Z pve: or is the make-foo-predicate approach better in a tight loop?
2020-10-16T10:09:35Z flip214: pve: don't have a GF, or perhaps a compiler macro
2020-10-16T10:10:21Z flip214: or mark the function as INLINE and have a TYPECASE in there (with identical code, perhaps) - some past ELS used that to have the "right" optimized version for each usage
2020-10-16T10:10:53Z pve: mark a GF as inline?
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2020-10-16T10:11:47Z scymtym: pve: maybe have a look at https://github.com/marcoheisig/fast-generic-functions
2020-10-16T10:12:52Z pve: scymtym: thanks, will do
2020-10-16T10:13:55Z pve: this is all just hypothetical btw, I was mostly just curious about how it works
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2020-10-16T10:22:14Z beach: pve: I don't think declaring it INLINE will work.
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2020-10-16T10:26:40Z phoe: inlining GFs won't work well enough
2020-10-16T10:26:47Z phoe: unless you seal them, per heisig's work
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2020-10-16T10:26:56Z phoe: but that introduces issues of their own, namely, inability to extend them
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2020-10-16T10:34:25Z pve: beach, phoe: right, thanks
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2020-10-16T12:15:38Z Xach:  
2020-10-16T12:16:07Z phoe: Xach: you returned no values
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2020-10-16T12:21:09Z Xach: when there was only one value, i was carrying you
2020-10-16T12:21:23Z ck_: "80% of success is returning at all"
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2020-10-16T12:28:16Z _death: flip214: GET uses EQ, not EQL, for comparison
2020-10-16T12:29:47Z _death: if you want to use, say, EQUAL, then better use a hash table instead
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2020-10-16T13:10:57Z Xach: here's an odd scam: https://www.ebay.com/itm/402385613081 - a blank notebook "customized for common lisp programmers"
2020-10-16T13:11:11Z Xach resumes search for real common lisp books
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2020-10-16T13:15:40Z _death: I'm reading an interesting book nowadays, though it's about a system that was written in Interlisp..
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2020-10-16T13:27:01Z beach: _death: You could share the name with us if you like.
2020-10-16T13:27:45Z _death: http://people.dbmi.columbia.edu/~ehs7001/Buchanan-Shortliffe-1984/MYCIN%20Book.htm
2020-10-16T13:27:57Z beach: Ah.
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2020-10-16T13:33:20Z dbotton_: is there a simple tutorial or template with good comments on the ideal way today to setup a lisp project, configs etc
2020-10-16T13:34:07Z dbotton_: like a quick start for quickslip asdf etc needed
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2020-10-16T13:36:37Z phoe: dbotton: https://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html
2020-10-16T13:36:44Z phoe: that's the project-setting phase
2020-10-16T13:36:48Z phoe: it assumes that quicklisp is already installed
2020-10-16T13:36:54Z dbotton: thanks
2020-10-16T13:37:04Z dbotton: that for sure have
2020-10-16T13:37:47Z _death: a less quick start may be https://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/
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2020-10-16T14:01:17Z Xach: new quicklisp dist is out today
2020-10-16T14:01:41Z Xach: going to upgrade to the new sbcl and hammer away on the bug reports
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2020-10-16T14:03:26Z beach: Congratulations!  And thanks!
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2020-10-16T14:06:18Z adlai: Xach: I am drafting a reasonably-concise and hopefully-polite literal copy of my explanation from yesterday, to place in the github issue; in case it was not clear, there is a reasonable chance that I will nix the licensing question and close the issue myself, without requiring further action from you.
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2020-10-16T14:18:42Z dbotton__: _death I will take a look at that also soon, thanks!
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2020-10-16T14:21:48Z dbotton_: seems like that link doesn't work
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2020-10-16T14:22:05Z dbotton_: althouh maybe something local
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2020-10-16T15:17:05Z saganman: what's going on?
2020-10-16T15:17:17Z saganman: oops, wrong channel
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2020-10-16T15:17:58Z beach thought that maybe saganman wanted updates on works in progress.
2020-10-16T15:18:38Z ck_: beach: don't let that stop you -- please: what's going on?
2020-10-16T15:18:53Z saganman: lol beach, I wouldn't undertsnad any of that. I'm just some what better than amateur programmer.
2020-10-16T15:19:46Z beach: ck_: Nice offer, but I am quite busy actually.  To summarize, I am redoing the bootstrapping procedure for SICL with improved techniques, and I just finished phase 2 a few minutes ago.
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2020-10-16T15:19:49Z Xach: amateur programmers make things because they enjoy making them, which is pretty cool.
2020-10-16T15:20:26Z Xach: it is different when you make something because someone five levels above you in some hierarchy decided it should be made, and on what terms and schedule
2020-10-16T15:20:33Z beach: Yes, and that's what "amateur" means, namely a person pursuing an activity out of love.
2020-10-16T15:20:44Z saganman: beach, If my memory serves correctly, you have been working on that for long time. Good Luck!
2020-10-16T15:21:04Z beach: As opposed to "professional" which means a person pursuing an activity for money.
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2020-10-16T15:21:14Z beach: saganman: Thanks.
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2020-10-16T15:22:19Z beach: saganman: Since I am a very slow thinker, I often get things wrong, and then I have to ditch what I did and start over.  I have learned to live with that.
2020-10-16T15:22:19Z saganman: Yeah, I don't have any plans with Lisp. Lisp history and the language piqued my interest.
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2020-10-16T15:23:28Z saganman: nice beach, I wouldn't disturb you anymore. Good luck once again and good day.
2020-10-16T15:23:52Z beach goes back to work.
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2020-10-16T15:26:51Z Xach: today quicklisp is 10 years and 1 week in beta
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2020-10-16T15:27:21Z Xach: i think it will only take 9 years and 51 weeks more to be finally released
2020-10-16T15:29:36Z _death: more than halfway there!
2020-10-16T15:30:33Z Xach: just so
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2020-10-16T15:31:54Z Nilby: Heh. Cool. Maybe my software will be ready for Quicklisp 1.0.
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2020-10-16T15:32:55Z Nilby: But I only started it before quicklisp was in beta.
2020-10-16T15:33:11Z dbotton_: why keep it beta?
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2020-10-16T15:33:33Z Xach: dbotton_: there are things that remain to be done
2020-10-16T15:33:48Z dbotton_: that is called 1.0 :)
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2020-10-16T15:38:39Z adlai: saganman: do you need suggestions of doctoral dissertations to read during your copious free time?
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2020-10-16T15:39:27Z adlai: there are occasionally good ones, if you search finely enough.
2020-10-16T15:40:38Z saganman: adlai, if it interests me, sure
2020-10-16T15:41:48Z adlai: there is one specific dissertation, pertaining to computer programming in general, although it investigates one common lisp compiler along with a few compilers of other languages
2020-10-16T15:42:06Z adlai: and it might, quite possibly, help you understand why exactly beach's work is so important.
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2020-10-16T15:43:48Z adlai: https://dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/dissertation/html/wheeler-trusting-trust-ddc.html
2020-10-16T15:45:01Z adlai: tl;dr is most easily visible at https://arxiv.org/abs/1004.5534
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2020-10-16T15:53:06Z saganman: nice, thanks adlai
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2020-10-16T16:01:22Z phoe: Xach: <3
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2020-10-16T22:25:12Z Xach: Hmm
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2020-10-16T22:44:02Z phoe: hmm?
2020-10-16T22:44:08Z tychoish: mmmmm
2020-10-16T22:44:39Z phoe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTeg1txDv8w
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2020-10-17T02:25:05Z borei: good morning/afternoon everybody.
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2020-10-17T02:56:40Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-17T03:21:30Z beach: I started watching a talk by Robert Virding entitled "On Language Design", and I think the next time someone suggests a revision of the Common Lisp standard, I'll point them to that presentation.
2020-10-17T03:23:15Z beach: "Be very careful when making changes suggested by users" * They often don't see the whole picture of the changes they suggest.  * They often don't know what they really need.  * They often want help with a solution; not [with] solving a problem.
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2020-10-17T04:03:26Z contrapunctus: Ironic, in the context of a language which is famous for trusting that the user knows best.
2020-10-17T04:04:26Z contrapunctus: (And that it should be possible for the user, if they wish, to get involved the design of the language.)
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2020-10-17T04:06:09Z no-defun-allowed: Arguably a user is expected to involve themselves by "extending" a language via macros.
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2020-10-17T04:06:57Z beach: Not really ironic.  The users get involved by experimenting, using the existing features of the language, and only after extensive experimentation and user experience is the new proposal considered for standardization.
2020-10-17T04:07:15Z beach: I think this idea was even documented somewhere.
2020-10-17T04:07:42Z beach: As I recall, CLOS was such a feature.
2020-10-17T04:07:53Z borei: im not sure if im on right direction or not, so i need some advise. Im working on the client for rados/ceph, and im hitting the following problem. To dump lisp object (instance of class) i need to pack object into flat array. I didn't find better solution then to use CFFI. I don't know lisp so deep and if there is "pure lisp" solution for that problem.
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2020-10-17T04:08:43Z no-defun-allowed: That is a very strange solution, and it sounds like it would get very unportable very quickly, should it depend on the memory layout of standard instances.
2020-10-17T04:08:46Z no-defun-allowed: What do you need to dump?
2020-10-17T04:09:39Z borei: from the technical stand point  - all data stored in slots.
2020-10-17T04:10:07Z bhartrihari: I think it's a fine barbell strategy. Instead of finding a balance in the middle, it balances two extremes—a safe side (conforming code), and the unsafe (and volatile) side (non conforming code but with useful features, eg. OS threads).
2020-10-17T04:10:07Z bhartrihari: The conforming code will always work, and the very useful non-conforming code can be made to work when it arises. Hence gaining from both the sides.
2020-10-17T04:11:50Z borei: i'll give you example - let say you say chemical element (which represented by clos class), let say it is  helium.
2020-10-17T04:12:12Z no-defun-allowed: You could store a sequence of readers for the slots you need to dump (or slot names, but readers are a much better approach should you want to modify your representation later), and then iterate over that to get the values to dump.
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2020-10-17T04:12:32Z borei: slots are - mass, charge, number of electrons, symbol (He) and long name (helium) that info need to go to ceph object
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2020-10-17T04:13:45Z borei: didn't get idea with readers.
2020-10-17T04:14:25Z no-defun-allowed: Supposing a class definition like (defclass element () ((mass ... :reader mass) (charge ... :reader charge) ...)), you could have a macro like (define-output-format element (mass charge electrons symbol name)) which expands to something that eventually calls your serialisation code.
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2020-10-17T04:20:47Z borei: how it will be packing string (name) and double (mass) to the uniformed data ?
2020-10-17T04:21:53Z borei: im losing idea
2020-10-17T04:22:40Z no-defun-allowed: That may be a property of the values stored (values have types in Lisp), or you may extend define-output-format to include types, like (define-output-format element (mass double) (charge double) (electrons unsigned-integer) (symbol string) (name string))
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2020-10-17T04:26:18Z borei: ok, i have type, and i can use it (and actually im using it) but i don't see solution excepts (setf (mem-ref buffer :int 0) charge)
2020-10-17T04:26:38Z borei: then im dumping buffer to ceph object
2020-10-17T04:27:40Z borei: knowing size of data stored in slot, im using proper offset and loading all data from all slots
2020-10-17T04:28:26Z borei: and buffer was created as foreign-alloc
2020-10-17T04:28:41Z borei: bottom line - very C-approach.
2020-10-17T04:30:46Z no-defun-allowed: So, what kind of format are you writing, and what consumes it?
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2020-10-17T04:31:24Z borei: sec
2020-10-17T04:32:10Z borei: https://pastebin.com/JDcaymqU
2020-10-17T04:32:25Z borei: there are a lot of things that are hardcoded
2020-10-17T04:32:38Z borei: but you should get an idea
2020-10-17T04:32:57Z borei: that pack function is preparing object header
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2020-10-17T04:33:28Z borei: it loads number of slots, and slots sizes into buffer
2020-10-17T04:33:29Z no-defun-allowed: Does a C library consume that structure?
2020-10-17T04:33:55Z borei: yes, then i can dump that buffer to ceph
2020-10-17T04:34:13Z no-defun-allowed: Right, well I don't have much to say about producing C structures.
2020-10-17T04:35:45Z borei: i'd be more then happy to avoid C-like data representation - but i can't find lisp way to load data of different type into allocated memory
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2020-10-17T04:46:09Z beach: This talk by Robert Virding is quite interesting.  He i an Erlang language developer, but the talk is about general principles, and he might as well talked about Common Lisp as an example of good design.  Furthermore, his example of what NOT to do, fits very well with how C++ is "designed".
2020-10-17T04:46:20Z beach: *He is
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2020-10-17T06:50:08Z p_l: beach: he also made a lisp for erlang, based on CL (though not compatible and without the same standard library - the point was to enable writing in Lisp on the Erlang's Open Telecom Platform)
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2020-10-17T07:54:25Z beach: p_l: Oh, I see!  No wonder! :)
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2020-10-17T08:38:02Z lukego: yeah Robert is an old-school Lisp dude since before Erlang.
2020-10-17T08:39:13Z beach: I had no idea.  Thanks for this information.
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2020-10-17T09:09:30Z phoe: I have written a few things in Lisp Flavored Erlang, I even attempted a swank server once
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2020-10-17T09:19:41Z phoe: it's a nice non-CL language, though functional paradigm and pattern matching enabled by default makes its syntax kinda dirty and verbose compared to CL
2020-10-17T09:20:13Z phoe: but then again, it's just Erlang with parens and a few Lispesque functions and macros to make things nicer
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2020-10-17T10:31:34Z bhartrihari: What problems would one want to look at while trying to improve the state of smalltalk like image based programming in CL?
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2020-10-17T10:32:28Z no-defun-allowed: I'd like to "atomically" replace a set of functions and types, so that busy threads don't get confused if they try to use those while I'm reloading them.
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2020-10-17T10:37:32Z gopher----: lisp is awful.
2020-10-17T10:38:28Z bhartrihari: no-defun-allowed: Thanks. That's something to think about.
2020-10-17T10:38:37Z gopher----: wha
2020-10-17T10:38:39Z gopher----: what
2020-10-17T10:38:52Z no-defun-allowed: gopher----: Who asked you?
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2020-10-17T10:39:11Z gopher----: you
2020-10-17T10:39:33Z no-defun-allowed: I don't recall asking you anything before.
2020-10-17T10:39:44Z gopher----: what help do you need for ?
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2020-10-17T10:40:50Z gopher----: anyway
2020-10-17T10:40:58Z gopher----: if you dont need help, dont highlight me, ok ?
2020-10-17T10:41:14Z no-defun-allowed: One easy implementation would be to have something like (with-stopped-world (ql:quickload :some-stuff)), but that doesn't help if a thread has entered the code we wish to replace.
2020-10-17T10:41:28Z no-defun-allowed: I wanted to know who asked you about how awful you think Lisp is.
2020-10-17T10:41:39Z gopher----: fuck you
2020-10-17T10:42:03Z no-defun-allowed: That wasn't very nice.
2020-10-17T10:42:13Z gopher----: yes
2020-10-17T10:42:14Z gopher----: fuck you
2020-10-17T10:42:52Z no-defun-allowed: Come on now, who shat in your cereal?
2020-10-17T10:42:58Z gopher----: bitch
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2020-10-17T10:45:19Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe you can get closer with first-class global environments. Compile into a copy of the current environment, work out which functions changed, wait for all the threads to leave those functions, then stop the world and install them in the current environment.
2020-10-17T10:46:02Z bhartrihari: Maybe we could find something to solve that while trying to solve the problem of serializing runtimes with multiple threads?
2020-10-17T10:46:34Z no-defun-allowed: Do you mean like save-lisp-and-die -ing in the presence of multiple threads?
2020-10-17T10:46:38Z bhartrihari: Yes
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2020-10-17T10:47:31Z no-defun-allowed: The way restoration works there only really leads to one (fresh) thread coming back after you reload the image, so you could destroy all other threads to get an approximation of the solution.
2020-10-17T10:49:25Z no-defun-allowed: I can't comment on the possibility of persisting threads in an image, but alien data structures and associated state (including POSIX threads for example) and images aren't friends.
2020-10-17T10:50:01Z bhartrihari: Does smalltalk deal with this problem?
2020-10-17T10:51:09Z no-defun-allowed: I can't comment on that either.
2020-10-17T10:51:15Z bhartrihari: I see.
2020-10-17T10:52:29Z no-defun-allowed: I think old Smalltalk virtual machines implemented threads at the image level, i.e. Smalltalk would flip between contexts as a timer interrupts the virtual machine, but that's quite far from modern implementations.
2020-10-17T10:53:41Z bhartrihari: Squeak doesn't support native threads, from a cursory look at their wiki.
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2020-10-17T10:54:07Z bhartrihari: Green threads.
2020-10-17T10:54:18Z bhartrihari: They have green threads.
2020-10-17T10:54:43Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
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2020-10-17T11:23:07Z beach: Not surprisingly, I didn't understand the meaning of the question by bhartrihari.  bhartrihari: Are you saying that currently, no Common Lisp implementation is fit for image-based development, and that you are looking for ways to improve current implementations to make such development practical?
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2020-10-17T11:25:46Z phoe: one thing that smalltalk images commonly provide is an integrated GUI/IDE/class browser - CL currently does not have such a facility
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2020-10-17T11:25:59Z phoe: s/facility/widespread facility/
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2020-10-17T11:35:21Z bhartrihari: beach: I'm looking to explore the problems therein, mainly to decide whether I would want to spend time making it more practical. There are certain problems which are documented in manuals for implementations like incompatibilities in images between versions. I was wondering what the concerns of the community are that have kept them from adopting that workflow more widely.
2020-10-17T11:35:48Z beach: Got it.  Thanks for elaborating.
2020-10-17T11:36:36Z beach: bhartrihari: Are you aware of my CLOSOS document?
2020-10-17T11:37:40Z bhartrihari: I am. I've read parts of it, and was quite inspired by that.
2020-10-17T11:37:49Z beach: OK.  Just checking.
2020-10-17T11:38:40Z beach: But you want something that can run on some "modern" operating systems?
2020-10-17T11:40:17Z bhartrihari: Not necessarily. I'm only the problems for now I guess.
2020-10-17T11:40:33Z beach: Fair enough.
2020-10-17T11:40:42Z bhartrihari: *only looking for
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2020-10-17T11:42:22Z bhartrihari: Persistence via source control is one good thing about working with text files. I still need to take a closer look at clobber for that.
2020-10-17T11:42:23Z beach: For a "modern" OS, it is true that saving and restoring an image must work correctly.
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2020-10-17T11:43:22Z beach: But there are other problems.  It is way too easy to break the working image in ways that can't be fixed other than starting a new one.
2020-10-17T11:44:30Z beach: First-class global environments with a pertinent set of pre-configured environments would be a start.
2020-10-17T11:45:04Z beach: Also, phoe is right.  There are still a few essential tools missing.
2020-10-17T11:45:45Z lukego: bhartrihari: I'm not sure if Lisps usually have an Object>>become: method hiding somewhere, or Object>>allInstancesDo:, but I often miss those in non-Smalltalk images.
2020-10-17T11:45:58Z lukego: I suppose that I mean Class>>allInstancesDo:
2020-10-17T11:46:47Z no-defun-allowed: lukego: It's possible to write an overwrite-instance, like the one in https://gitlab.com/cal-coop/netfarm/netfarm/-/blob/master/Code/Objects/MOP/rewrite-references.lisp#L36
2020-10-17T11:47:13Z bhartrihari: On binary incompatibility, sbcl manual states that nobody has been motivated enough to do a lengthy fix. I wonder if that is speculation alone, or there are any hints as to what the lengthy solutions might look like.
2020-10-17T11:48:11Z no-defun-allowed: (You probably wouldn't write it exactly like that, because we use that function to splat in the slots of an object we received into another instance.)
2020-10-17T11:49:18Z beach: bhartrihari: Doing more with standard classes, standard objects, and generic functions would help that problem.  But SBCL and the other existing Common Lisp implementations were written before CLOS became part of the standard, so they add CLOS late.  This means a lot of dependency on exact representation of objects.
2020-10-17T11:52:16Z bhartrihari: I don't think I understand that fully. You mean there is no standardized representation (ABI?) to conform to?
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2020-10-17T11:53:09Z phoe: not in the CL world
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2020-10-17T11:53:41Z phoe: every implementation has its own way of organizing and managing raw memory
2020-10-17T11:53:54Z beach: Sort of.  The internal representation of objects is often visible everywhere in the system, say in the form of tag bits and such.  CLOS would help abstract those dependencies away.
2020-10-17T11:56:05Z bhartrihari: I see.
2020-10-17T11:58:30Z beach: But it would be a monumental task to modify an existing implementation in that direction.
2020-10-17T11:58:37Z beach: Probably harder than to start over.
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2020-10-17T12:00:09Z Xach: tychoish: more fixes needed for cl-grip and sbcl 2.0.9
2020-10-17T12:00:45Z Xach: https://github.com/tychoish/cl-grip/blob/main/ext/buffer.lisp#L38
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2020-10-17T12:09:30Z bhartrihari: Writing a standardized spec for that is a task in itself. Unless there's some ABI standard out there that fits the bill well.
2020-10-17T12:11:42Z beach: What kind of things would you expect in such a specification?
2020-10-17T12:12:07Z beach: Exact layout of objects?  Calling conventions I suppose.
2020-10-17T12:13:54Z bhartrihari: I think layout is fine. But calling conventions would probably take it too close to the compilation target. I would like to see something that both sbcl and ECL can conform to.
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2020-10-17T12:16:38Z beach: Oh!
2020-10-17T12:16:52Z bhartrihari: I do need to do more readings in ABI specs before setting expectations on that though.
2020-10-17T12:17:04Z beach: Yes, I see.
2020-10-17T12:17:45Z beach: For object layout, you may want to look in the SICL specification.  I am using what I think is the simplest possible layout that will still allow for decent performance.
2020-10-17T12:18:27Z bhartrihari: Thanks. Will do.
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2020-10-17T12:20:27Z phoe: also you will want to do some sort of memory management in the ABI I guess
2020-10-17T12:20:49Z phoe: I mean, you will want to specify whose GC is supposed to work on a given object
2020-10-17T12:20:55Z phoe: (unless I misunderstand the problem)
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2020-10-17T12:23:11Z sm2n_: does it really matter, as long as you can convert to and from the format you make to whatever format the implementation in question uses?
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2020-10-17T12:29:21Z phoe: then we already have this
2020-10-17T12:29:24Z phoe: it's called CFFI
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2020-10-17T12:36:58Z bhartrihari: Though for now, I wasn't thinking of the possibility of two implementations running a piece of code simultaneously (that's the only case that comes to mind where we have competing GCs). Only at how that standardization can help with image based programming.
2020-10-17T12:38:05Z bhartrihari: I mean, two implementations calling into the same binary.
2020-10-17T12:41:49Z bhartrihari: I guess what it comes down to is perhaps to have a standard way to represent the "world", which multiple implementations can use.
2020-10-17T12:43:00Z beach: bhartrihari: But then the question is, what makes the difference between different implementations?  Currently object layout (closely related to memory management) is an important part of that.
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2020-10-17T12:46:43Z bhartrihari: I would need to think more about that.
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2020-10-17T12:47:00Z beach: Sure.  Take your time. :)
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2020-10-17T12:55:24Z aaaaaa: Hi all. Have anybody used Lisp for static webpage generation? I would be interested in how it was done
2020-10-17T12:58:40Z contrapunctus: aaaaaa: I believe there are innumerable solutions for that. One is listed here - https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#static-site-generators
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2020-10-17T12:59:15Z aaaaaa: contrapunctus: thanks
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2020-10-17T13:24:43Z adlai: minion: please tell adlai about CLOSOS
2020-10-17T13:24:49Z minion: CLOSOS: I can't be expected to work when CLiki doesn't respond to me, can I?
2020-10-17T13:25:09Z phoe: http://metamodular.com/closos.pdf most likely
2020-10-17T13:25:15Z beach: Indeed.
2020-10-17T13:25:24Z adlai: fastest gun on the net, eh phoe ? :)
2020-10-17T13:25:30Z adlai: and thank you!
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2020-10-17T13:35:35Z adlai has yet to patiently read the entire document, although it should be much more interesting than https://www.cliki.net/LLGPL and its ilk
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2020-10-17T13:36:15Z beach: If you feel more comfortable asking questions about it, that's fine too.
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2020-10-17T13:42:15Z adlai is currently targeting a childishly simple goal: reducing the number of forks hosted under github.com/adlai that exist for the sole purpose of an open pull request
2020-10-17T13:43:01Z adlai: perhaps a "premature optimization", for "quarter-life crisis" values of maturity?
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2020-10-17T13:44:05Z adlai: the practical relevance is that I am wondering whether to adopt the websocket client library, due to the uncertain status of its dependency, 8arrow's library event-emitter
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2020-10-17T13:45:25Z adlai: this is skew-parallel, and not quite orthogonal, to the licensing uncertainty hovering over scalpl.
2020-10-17T13:49:15Z adlai can't even recall whether the author's IRC nick is 8arrow or nitro_idiot ; either way, does not seem to be here right now :(
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2020-10-17T13:59:10Z adlai: I realize my current goal is arguably a waste of time; however, since my primary purpose is turning a throwaway prototype into a tool both useful and worthy of publication, and this tool is explicitly for use by for-profit enterprises, it does seem counterproductive to rely on free services.
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2020-10-17T14:13:50Z edgar-rft: Let's start a service that's only goal is to make others pay money and serve nobody
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2020-10-17T14:17:48Z flip214: edgar-rft: again?
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2020-10-17T14:18:56Z edgar-rft: flip214: okay, let's be *one* of those services...
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2020-10-17T14:29:14Z adlai: Xach: thank you for removing scalpl from the default dist :)
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2020-10-17T15:17:41Z ak-coram: hi, I'm playing around with simd instructions in sbcl. does anyone know how I can unpack simd-packs?
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2020-10-17T15:24:28Z beach: ak-coram: Did you try #sbcl?
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2020-10-17T15:25:20Z ak-coram: beach: yes, no answer yet :)
2020-10-17T15:25:49Z ak-coram: thought I'd try here as well
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2020-10-17T15:26:01Z beach: Sure.
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2020-10-17T15:30:50Z ak-coram: found it, you can use %simd-pack-256-ub32s for example
2020-10-17T15:31:05Z rumbler31_: hey everyone.  After perusing the latest quicklisp dist update, I am reading this code and trying to figure out what it does. https://github.com/Hexstream/enhanced-typep/blob/master/main.lisp
2020-10-17T15:31:28Z rumbler31_: specifically %typep-lambda
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2020-10-17T15:32:42Z rumbler31_: it appears that  if the argument is a constant, then a lambda is returned that tests a random object var against the specified type, otherwise
2020-10-17T15:32:56Z rumbler31_: the lambda calls typep on a random object name and a random type name, right?
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2020-10-17T15:35:01Z rumbler31_: the code looks deceptively simple and short but i'm having trouble figuring out what it does, and what machinery behind define-compiler-macro makes it necessary
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2020-10-17T15:39:26Z adlai: rumbler31_: it's worth noting that code using define-compiler-macro should always have identical correct behavior when the forms defining the compiler macro are deleted
2020-10-17T15:40:09Z adlai: no guarantees about consistent failures, nor efficiency; although, compilers are allowed to ignore define-compiler-macro
2020-10-17T15:43:08Z adlai begins to experience anger after too much time reading common lisp in github's website, and finds himself nostalgic for paste.lisp.org
2020-10-17T15:43:19Z rumbler31_: I miss paste too....
2020-10-17T15:43:57Z rumbler31_: running the code in the repl was illuminating.  I see that we are returning forms, not the lambdas themselves
2020-10-17T15:44:35Z adlai: correct, the function in question builds a lambda form, that can be compiled into a function
2020-10-17T15:45:20Z adlai: you may want to avoid thinking of the given arguments as "random", and instead just call them the given object name, and given type name.
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2020-10-17T15:49:02Z adlai: rumbler31_: the author[s] have published their own chat website, in another repository under that same account, in case you want to contact them directly; although please remember to update, in here, if you learn something surprising in answer to your questions there
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2020-10-17T15:49:54Z rumbler31_: the authors of paste?
2020-10-17T15:50:08Z rumbler31_: oh you mean of the code i'm reading
2020-10-17T15:50:16Z rumbler31_: coffee hasn't kicked in yet
2020-10-17T15:50:39Z rumbler31_: I'm trying to play in the repl to understand the output of the function a little better
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2020-10-17T15:51:56Z adlai: the function in question probably returns a lambda form, instead of a literal function, to avoid preventing serialization of compiled code.
2020-10-17T15:52:19Z rumbler31_: preventing serialization?
2020-10-17T15:52:58Z adlai: yes; if you modify the code you are running so that it returns #'(lambda ...) instead of '(lambda ...), it will return a literal function object
2020-10-17T15:53:18Z adlai: that will work when you test it interactively, although it will almost certainly fail in certain compilation scenarios.
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2020-10-17T15:54:04Z adlai forgets the precise syntax for doing this bad idea with quasiquote, although it is probably `#'(lambda ... ,etc)
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2020-10-17T15:56:20Z adlai: eh, "quasiquote" is a library. I should've just written "backquote".
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2020-10-17T15:58:50Z rumbler31_: hmm
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2020-10-17T16:02:34Z adlai: I hope you aren't also trying to unread projects that are removed from quicklisp... that is the garbage collector's job, not yours.
2020-10-17T16:03:16Z rumbler31_: :-)
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2020-10-17T16:03:35Z rumbler31_: I need more practice reading code I didn't write
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2020-10-17T16:06:17Z adlai: ok, read all of scalpl. it is terrible code, hitting almost all the nasty twisted corners of the standard, and it works.
2020-10-17T16:06:25Z adlai is available for questions
2020-10-17T16:06:53Z adlai: "all of XYZ" = dependencies, too :)
2020-10-17T16:07:29Z adlai: if there is a specific part of the standard that you wish to see in use, please designate it.
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2020-10-17T16:10:38Z adlai: if you prefer reading better code, you can always just read your compiler.
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2020-10-17T18:11:56Z daphnis: what's the cl equivalent of echo foo >bar, where bar is a named pipe?  (with-open-file (s "bar" :direction :output :if-exists :supersede) (format s "foo")) doesn't seem to work.
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2020-10-17T18:14:50Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2083#2083
2020-10-17T18:14:53Z phoe: works for me
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2020-10-17T18:22:12Z daphnis: ah .. my test wanted a newline
2020-10-17T18:23:43Z phoe: ooh
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2020-10-17T18:23:56Z phoe: (format s "foo~%") then
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2020-10-17T19:02:14Z masamasa: lisp is fookin gobshite
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2020-10-17T19:10:10Z masamasa: fak lisp
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2020-10-17T23:38:02Z mega_hater: lisp is fucking vile.
2020-10-17T23:38:24Z no-defun-allowed: You again?
2020-10-17T23:38:29Z mega_hater: fuck list
2020-10-17T23:38:30Z mega_hater: madafakaz
2020-10-17T23:38:49Z mega_hater: lisp absolutely horribal
2020-10-17T23:38:59Z mega_hater: lisp is garbage
2020-10-17T23:39:26Z no-defun-allowed: I would say that your IRC client uses lists somewhere, but IPL "invented" lists so it wouldn't be much of a point.
2020-10-17T23:39:48Z mega_hater: fak uu
2020-10-17T23:40:00Z no-defun-allowed: Do you really have nothing better to do?
2020-10-17T23:40:08Z mega_hater: i like lisp
2020-10-17T23:40:12Z mega_hater: only for trolling
2020-10-17T23:40:14Z mega_hater: xDDD
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2020-10-17T23:40:31Z no-defun-allowed: Not hard to guess.
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2020-10-17T23:41:52Z no-defun-allowed: What makes you think it's garbage?
2020-10-17T23:42:10Z mega_hater: its awful
2020-10-17T23:42:27Z no-defun-allowed: Why is it awful?
2020-10-17T23:43:08Z mega_hater: because its nasty
2020-10-17T23:43:20Z no-defun-allowed: Why is it nasty?
2020-10-17T23:43:26Z mega_hater: because its terribal
2020-10-17T23:43:38Z no-defun-allowed: Why is it terribal?
2020-10-17T23:43:46Z mega_hater: because its horribal
2020-10-17T23:44:01Z no-defun-allowed: Is it more or less horrible than your spelling?
2020-10-17T23:44:05Z selwyn: hannibal the terribal
2020-10-17T23:44:58Z mega_hater: yes
2020-10-17T23:45:01Z mega_hater: its terribal
2020-10-17T23:45:08Z mega_hater: because its horribal
2020-10-17T23:45:24Z no-defun-allowed: That doesn't explain very much.
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2020-10-17T23:45:41Z mega_hater: the grox.
2020-10-17T23:45:43Z aeth: Lisp might be the worst language you've heard of, but you've heard of it.
2020-10-17T23:46:19Z mega_hater: no
2020-10-17T23:46:20Z mega_hater: its nout
2020-10-17T23:46:21Z no-defun-allowed: Which parts are terrible, horrible, nasty and/or awful?
2020-10-17T23:46:31Z mega_hater: the horribal ones
2020-10-17T23:46:37Z mega_hater: which also make them nastee
2020-10-17T23:46:47Z aeth: horriball would be a nice Halloween themed sports game
2020-10-17T23:46:50Z no-defun-allowed: Which ones are the horrible ones?
2020-10-17T23:47:12Z mega_hater: the ones which make me go choo choo, choo choo
2020-10-17T23:47:27Z no-defun-allowed: You're a part-time train?
2020-10-17T23:47:35Z mega_hater: i trian
2020-10-17T23:47:36Z mega_hater: train
2020-10-17T23:47:43Z mega_hater: whilst on the train.
2020-10-17T23:48:01Z aeth: speaking of trains... https://gitlab.com/snippets/1776926
2020-10-17T23:48:03Z mega_hater: im in pain
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2020-10-17T23:48:11Z mega_hater: because of the lisp
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2020-10-17T23:48:29Z mega_hater: lisp gave me chicken pox
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2020-10-17T23:48:53Z aeth: honestly, this is some weak trolling... if you want to troll better, pretend to be a paul graham fanboy
2020-10-17T23:48:59Z no-defun-allowed: Chicken sounds like you want #scheme then.
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2020-10-17T23:53:07Z mega_hater: i want to be creative
2020-10-17T23:53:09Z mega_hater: with lisp
2020-10-17T23:53:24Z mega_hater: does lisp support ascii art ?
2020-10-17T23:53:55Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I used a program written in Lisp to emit a Java program that had ASCII art in it for a Java assignment.
2020-10-17T23:54:15Z mega_hater: i want to create a lisp program in the shape of a vagina
2020-10-17T23:54:31Z no-defun-allowed: Though pedantically that was Unicode art, I used the box drawing characters to make each 2x2 block of pixels into one character.
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2020-10-18T00:02:49Z no-defun-allowed: That raises interesting questions about what constitutes "source code" for that course. That was generated code (and it had a "written by PROGRAM-NAME.lisp, do not edit" header) but I didn't get into trouble for submitting that.
2020-10-18T00:03:27Z no-defun-allowed: And I ended up changing it to 2x4 or something because most terminal fonts are taller than they are wide. A fun hack nonetheless.
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2020-10-18T03:01:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-18T03:25:52Z ldbeth: good morning everyone
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2020-10-18T03:26:15Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ldbeth.
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2020-10-18T04:10:02Z markasoftware: Has anyone here used cl-typesetting? How is it compared to TeX?
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2020-10-18T04:13:00Z no-defun-allowed: It's quite a bit less powerful than TeX. There's only a few inbuilt fonts and none support non-ASCII characters from what I remember.
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2020-10-18T04:14:03Z no-defun-allowed: It's much more convenient than writing TeX I suppose, but it's quite limiting in what you can do.
2020-10-18T04:15:05Z iissaacc: its sure to be less painful than TeX god i hate TeX
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2020-10-18T04:16:11Z markasoftware: Does it support mat hstuff fairly well? Like integrals or cube roots for example
2020-10-18T04:16:17Z no-defun-allowed: But it can't do close to as much as TeX; I used cl-typesetting because I didn't want to lug around a TeX system for an accounting program.
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2020-10-18T04:16:29Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think there was much math support. (And I really didn't like the fonts.)
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2020-10-18T04:23:37Z markasoftware: huh. Thanks for the info
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2020-10-18T09:43:17Z phoe: FYI, I've asked blix.com to intervene wrt the troll that repeatedly connects to #lisp from their network. If they don't respond, I'll ban the whole ASN.
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2020-10-18T10:09:29Z pve: Hello! Can I expect closer-mop:class-prototype to work on a condition class on most implementations? It work on SBCL.
2020-10-18T10:12:27Z no-defun-allowed: I'm fairly sure you cannot expect condition classes to be standard-classes, but I don't know of any implementations that don't do that.
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2020-10-18T10:15:27Z pve: no-defun-allowed: hmm, on SBCL they appear to not be standard-classes, but the method is still defined for condition classes
2020-10-18T10:15:48Z no-defun-allowed: I see.
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2020-10-18T10:20:56Z pve: I need to use class-prototype when doing make-method-lambda to get the generic-function-method-class, but I wonder if it's ok to just do (make-condition 'my-condition) and use that as a "prototype"?
2020-10-18T10:22:38Z pve: oh no, I think I misread.. I don't need to do that at all
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2020-10-18T10:23:34Z pve: It should work just fine after all.
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2020-10-18T10:24:57Z phoe: pve: class-prototype will work everywhere.
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2020-10-18T10:25:16Z phoe: SBCL has its own condition classes, and everywhere else conditions are standard objects with full MOP support.
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2020-10-18T10:28:51Z pve: phoe: thanks, that's good to know
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2020-10-18T10:46:40Z adlai regrettably must continue violating his own interpretation of the topic
2020-10-18T10:47:36Z phoe: adlai: which topic?
2020-10-18T10:47:37Z adlai: is the purpose for which Franz's LLGPL exists primarily to enable the distribution of their compiler as closed-source?
2020-10-18T10:47:54Z adlai: phoe: I wrote, a few days ago, that I prefer to take the licensing issue elsewhere. it is a long and nasty conversation.
2020-10-18T10:48:01Z phoe: ooh, yes, I see
2020-10-18T10:48:10Z adlai is now reading http://opensource.franz.com/preamble.html
2020-10-18T10:48:44Z no-defun-allowed: As far as I know, it's to clean up how late binding interacts with component boundaries.
2020-10-18T10:49:19Z adlai: I also wrote [in #lispcafe] that the conversation on this topic should be in an officially logged channel.
2020-10-18T10:49:53Z adlai: thank you, no-defun-allowed ; I'll keep an eye out for that in my reading.
2020-10-18T10:50:39Z no-defun-allowed: That also includes redefinitions and generic functions, apparently, but it's just clearing up what's a derivative work and what's not.
2020-10-18T10:50:45Z adlai: I like how the LLGPL leaves the door open to manually diddling object code !
2020-10-18T10:51:04Z adlai: "object code (... or built with some other mechanisms)"
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2020-10-18T11:07:43Z adlai: well that's just an extraneous landmine: :ASDF has no slot named ASDF/COMPONENT:LICENCE.
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2020-10-18T13:48:59Z phoe: Xach: high five
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2020-10-18T13:49:59Z Xach: was ist los??
2020-10-18T13:50:12Z phoe: just a minor high-five moment on reddit
2020-10-18T13:50:38Z Xach: ah i see
2020-10-18T13:51:02Z Xach: i like crabbone suggesting switching to linux
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2020-10-18T14:15:30Z semz: What would be a good way to strip down a save-lisp-and-die SBCL image a bit? 30MB is manageable, but still hurts for what is basically a large script with no overly complicated features.
2020-10-18T14:15:35Z semz: To preempt the inevitable "what about --script": Installing SBCL on the target is no option, sadly.
2020-10-18T14:18:01Z scymtym: semz: is your baseline with or without core compression?
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2020-10-18T14:18:11Z semz: without, tried that already
2020-10-18T14:19:35Z scymtym: and it didn't reduce the size? for me, it reduces the size to maybe between 25 % and 30 % of the uncompressed binary
2020-10-18T14:20:27Z semz: no, i meant the SBCL i'm using has no compression built in
2020-10-18T14:22:37Z scymtym: i see
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2020-10-18T14:26:08Z phoe: then grab a SBCL with core compression
2020-10-18T14:26:23Z phoe: you'll get a ~10 MB executable
2020-10-18T14:26:30Z phoe: or even more if you're lucky
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2020-10-18T14:28:16Z semz: I'd rather not deal with SBCL's build process on Windows through Wine if I'm honest.
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2020-10-18T14:29:47Z scymtym: in any case, if you use core compression, note the following mild disadvantages: 1) the binary will require libz on the target system 2) startup well be slightly slower (by a small fraction of a second) 3) the compressed core cannot be memory-mapped and thus not be shared between multiple processes. other than that core compression is very nice
2020-10-18T14:30:49Z semz: noted
2020-10-18T14:31:46Z scymtym: i thought the Windows build used mingw, not wine. building with wine is (was?) also possible, but /that/ gets really unpleasant
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2020-10-18T14:37:22Z scymtym: (not because wine is bad or anything - i'm making good progress implementing a McCLIM Windows backend using wine)
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2020-10-18T16:03:15Z phoe: semz: https://github.com/roswell/sbcl_bin/releases
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2020-10-18T16:04:46Z phoe: hm, these don't have recent windows builds...
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2020-10-18T16:16:04Z pxpxp: This doesn't look like a lisp question, yet I can't find an answer on the Internet. Maybe because other languages/frameworks hide this possibility from the developers? So here it is: for those of you who have made websites with redirection (e.g. after login), did you use HTTP redirection or did you directly call the target handler? The second way avoids a round-trip time which seems unnecessary at first glance
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2020-10-18T16:17:09Z pxpxp: e.g. client: POST login; server: Moved Permanently to ...; client: GET ...; server: sends the target page
2020-10-18T16:17:12Z pxpxp: vs
2020-10-18T16:17:20Z pxpxp: client: POST login; server: sends the target page
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2020-10-18T16:19:32Z Psycomic: What are the best libraries for UI in common lisp?
2020-10-18T16:20:47Z pxpxp: By "target page", I mean the page that will be served on login success, e.g. the main page
2020-10-18T16:23:50Z beach: Psycomic: Definitely McCLIM.
2020-10-18T16:24:06Z beach: Psycomic: Assuming you mean GUI.
2020-10-18T16:24:43Z Psycomic: yes. I heard about it, but wasn't it only for the X window system ?
2020-10-18T16:25:30Z beach: There is work on other backends, including a Windows backend and a browser backend.  I don't remember the state of those.  You can ask in #clim.
2020-10-18T16:25:47Z scymtym: Psycomic: what is best depends on your requirements. lists with short descriptions can be found at https://www.cliki.net/gui and https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl#gui and https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/gui.html#introduction
2020-10-18T16:25:51Z kirtai: isn't someone also making a backend for text terminals?
2020-10-18T16:26:14Z beach: kirtai: Yes, jackdaniel is working on that.
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2020-10-18T16:26:48Z kirtai: very versatile :)
2020-10-18T16:27:05Z Psycomic: scymtym: ok thanks
2020-10-18T16:27:11Z cl-arthur: pxpxp: Both approaches should work in general. If it's for a login or other such rare occasions, it doesn't seem particularly performance-critical, though.
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2020-10-18T16:36:26Z Xach: pxpxp: you can do whatever you like but i would be concerned with someone looking at their profile page after login (for example), bookmarking it, and being brought back to the wrong place (the login handler URL)
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2020-10-18T17:35:58Z pxpxp: Okay thanks!
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2020-10-18T20:57:55Z dbotton_: why is  (equal #(1 2 3) #(1 2 3)) false? since (equal '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3)) is true
2020-10-18T20:58:17Z no-defun-allowed: clhs equal
2020-10-18T20:58:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm
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2020-10-18T20:58:29Z no-defun-allowed: It's quite arbitrary, but EQUAL won't compare the contents of vectors that aren't strings.
2020-10-18T20:59:00Z dbotton_: oh.. what was the logic behind that decision
2020-10-18T20:59:10Z dbotton_: I know you said arbitrary
2020-10-18T20:59:32Z dbotton_: but it still seems strange to create an inconsistency
2020-10-18T21:00:32Z no-defun-allowed: EQUALP compares array elements, but it also compares strings in a case-insensitive manner.
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2020-10-18T21:01:20Z dbotton_: yes I know that, there is no case here
2020-10-18T21:01:50Z dbotton_: I see from clhs that all arrays have this issue
2020-10-18T21:01:56Z dbotton_: eq is used
2020-10-18T21:02:15Z _death: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2020-10-18T21:03:01Z phoe: tl;dr equality is not a well-defined term
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2020-10-18T21:03:20Z dbotton_: thanks _death will look at now
2020-10-18T21:03:41Z rogersm: _death: that link is great
2020-10-18T21:03:43Z phoe: especially in languages that are not strictly functional, e.g. Common Lisp
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2020-10-18T21:04:39Z dbotton_: can you be more specific phoe? it seems to be well defined just somewhat strange in Lisp
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2020-10-18T21:05:00Z _death: rogersm: there are a bunch of great links here: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/index.html
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2020-10-18T21:06:19Z rogersm: I knew Kent's page, but I missed that one
2020-10-18T21:06:33Z Nilby: building towers of equal-ish-ness since 1959
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2020-10-18T21:09:02Z dbotton_: so when using equalp is eql being used for the vectors or "equal" for each element?
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2020-10-18T21:12:31Z Xach: it's all there in the spec page!
2020-10-18T21:13:01Z Alfr: dbotton, just write your own equivalence test that suits the problem, if the usual four don't fit the bill.
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2020-10-18T21:14:23Z Nilby: sbcl has a well written docstring for equal
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2020-10-18T21:14:52Z Nilby: s/equal/equalp/
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2020-10-18T21:15:06Z Alfr: dbotton, regarding not well defined, just imagine that for some reason you really want 7 and 3 to be equivalent sometimes ...
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2020-10-18T21:17:48Z Nilby: My opinion is if you're typing into a REPL where a docstring isn't a keypress away you are losing much productivity.
2020-10-18T21:18:10Z Xach has that setup with the spec as well
2020-10-18T21:18:16Z dbotton__: I will take a look there as well
2020-10-18T21:19:27Z dbotton__: Already noted down now the difference for the future, but now looking to see what was the reason that was chosen, in particular since different behavior for list, string and array
2020-10-18T21:19:37Z dbotton__: that is not in the spec
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2020-10-18T21:21:37Z dbotton__: I understand why the ranges of equality have a place, but why would equal's author choose a such a difference with arrays vs strings
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2020-10-18T21:21:54Z Nilby: few want to revisit the carnage of the eqv battles of 1968
2020-10-18T21:21:55Z dbotton__: I assume must have been an efficiency issue
2020-10-18T21:22:22Z dbotton__: I find understand the reason behind an implementation important
2020-10-18T21:23:15Z dbotton__: or difference between a list and a vector
2020-10-18T21:23:38Z dbotton__: maybe in those days vectors were used for very large lists
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2020-10-18T21:27:03Z dbotton__: I see #(...) is not 100% the same as (vector ...) either
2020-10-18T21:27:37Z no-defun-allowed: #(...) is a constant datum, yes.
2020-10-18T21:28:11Z dbotton__: there are so many devils in the details as I keep drilling..
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2020-10-18T21:31:12Z dbotton__: thank you all though for the help, is it is what it is
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2020-10-18T21:42:55Z phoe: dbotton: basically, the issue is what do you mean when you think "equal"
2020-10-18T21:43:10Z phoe: and in which context you mean it
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2020-10-18T21:44:03Z phoe: the specific details of how eq/eql/equal/equalp don't matter from this point of view since even if you had 50 different equality operators then you could still find some place where you'll need a 51st one
2020-10-18T21:44:14Z phoe: s/don't matter/work don't matter/
2020-10-18T21:44:21Z phoe: this is because equality is in the eye of the comparator
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2020-10-18T22:00:51Z dbotton: understood. thank you
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2020-10-18T22:56:48Z phoe: dbotton_: basically
2020-10-18T22:56:54Z phoe: let me ask you this question: is (list 1 2 3) equal to (list 1 2 3)? (and by that I mean the generic English sense, not having them compared by CL:EQUAL)
2020-10-18T22:57:03Z phoe: yes or no
2020-10-18T22:58:46Z phoe: if you answer yes, then I say that when I SETF CAR of the first one then the CAR of the other is not modified, hence they must not be equal to one another
2020-10-18T22:58:49Z aeth: phoe: that's one of the main arguments people make for immutability, actually...
2020-10-18T22:59:11Z aeth: it keeps equality intuitive
2020-10-18T22:59:15Z phoe: if you answer no, then I say that I can substitute one for the other in a call to e.g. PRINT, or MAPCAR #'1+, hence they must be equal to one another
2020-10-18T22:59:28Z phoe: aeth: yes, I've mentioned this up above - functional data structures have well-defined equality
2020-10-18T23:00:19Z phoe: mostly because they no longer have identity that is as meaningful as it would be in non-functional contexts
2020-10-18T23:00:20Z aeth: although you still get an issue with types, like is 1 equal to 1.0? Well, they're =, but that's because = is defined that way.
2020-10-18T23:00:29Z aeth: (to use an example of a functional data structure)
2020-10-18T23:00:35Z no-defun-allowed: Is (lambda (x) x) equal to (lambda (y) y)?
2020-10-18T23:00:50Z no-defun-allowed: The earlier you give up defining equality on functions, the better.
2020-10-18T23:00:54Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: iirc, Scheme permits that (even encourages that?) but that's really, really hard to do.
2020-10-18T23:00:56Z phoe: don't even get me started on----- oh
2020-10-18T23:00:59Z phoe: yes
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2020-10-18T23:01:18Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: What about (lambda (x) (check-type x number) x) and (lambda (x) (- (- x)))?
2020-10-18T23:01:21Z phoe: comparing functions is a big no-no because then you get into undecidability real quick
2020-10-18T23:02:21Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: right, that's one of two things I don't like about Scheme's equality rules; the other being that the more advanced equality forms don't use = so (equal? 1 1.0) => #f
2020-10-18T23:02:41Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: they are not equal, because (- (- x)) is the --x operator from C++ (see the double dash?), hence, it's equivalent to (decf x)
2020-10-18T23:02:44Z phoe hides
2020-10-18T23:03:03Z no-defun-allowed: phoe: Of course.
2020-10-18T23:03:52Z phoe: anyway
2020-10-18T23:04:15Z phoe: tl;dr define equality and only then talk about equality
2020-10-18T23:04:24Z phoe lies down for nightly garbage collection
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2020-10-18T23:09:22Z dbotton_: phoe that I understand. The issue I was having once understanding which equality was intended was equal has different forms of equality depending on type
2020-10-18T23:10:10Z dbotton_: and in the case if vector/array even if the same basic type with string
2020-10-18T23:10:26Z dbotton_: there are differences
2020-10-18T23:11:37Z dbotton_: as pointed out it was an arbitrary choice, but still there must have been some reason to do so
2020-10-18T23:12:25Z dbotton_: between vector and string seems clear to offer equal and equalp as case sensitive or insensitive comparison
2020-10-18T23:13:09Z phoe: dbotton_: likely this was an effect of the fact that if a predicate applies recursive equality then it applies itself only
2020-10-18T23:13:11Z dbotton_: but to choose to compare using eq for arrays there must have been some reason
2020-10-18T23:13:26Z phoe: e.g. EQUAL doesn't apply EQL anywhere, other than for the cases where it decays into EQL and/or EQ
2020-10-18T23:13:34Z phoe: it always applies EQUAL
2020-10-18T23:13:40Z phoe: same with EQUALP, it applies EQUALP all way round
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2020-10-18T23:14:35Z phoe: you can define your own equality predicate that works differently, e.g. compares vectors by their size/element type/descends into elements by applying itself and otherwise behaves like EQUAL
2020-10-18T23:14:51Z dbotton_: what was the reason it decays for arrays?
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2020-10-18T23:15:17Z phoe: I guess, and only guess, this is for performance reasons and because arrays are not functional data structures like conses
2020-10-18T23:15:39Z dbotton_: of course I can define such that is the beauty I am finding with lisp
2020-10-18T23:15:40Z phoe: comparing conses by value makes sense, but comparing arrays by value is not something that is requested as usually as it is for conses
2020-10-18T23:16:10Z phoe: if you are doing arrays then you are most likely mutating them, so it makes sense to compare mutable data structures by identity first and foremost
2020-10-18T23:16:16Z phoe: that's just my wild guess though.
2020-10-18T23:16:32Z dbotton_: that was my guess i made earlier. is there an anotated standard like ada has?
2020-10-18T23:16:52Z phoe: I think we'd need to figure out which Lisp dialect EQ/EQL/EQUAL/EQUALP came from
2020-10-18T23:16:59Z phoe: and figure out the rationale from there
2020-10-18T23:17:11Z dbotton_: good point, the natural mutability
2020-10-18T23:17:13Z dbotton_: for arrays
2020-10-18T23:17:14Z aeth: someone needs to DEFGENERIC a bunch of various equality names, for library use
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2020-10-18T23:17:34Z phoe: and do what later
2020-10-18T23:17:46Z aeth: call it trivial-equality... just DEFGENERICs for the built-in data types (there aren't that many) and relying on user code for the rest
2020-10-18T23:18:37Z phoe: also http://clhs.lisp.se/Issues/iss143_w.htm that touches this issue
2020-10-18T23:18:47Z aeth: you could also just have a trivial-generics or something; then you could fit in a bunch of other common generics like NAME
2020-10-18T23:18:58Z aeth: (defgeneric name (object))
2020-10-18T23:19:09Z phoe: I did that
2020-10-18T23:19:21Z phoe: it's called protest/common and is a bad idea
2020-10-18T23:19:23Z aeth: Any NAME that has more than one argument (unless optional/key) is going to break so much code that (defgeneric name (object)) is safe
2020-10-18T23:20:26Z phoe asleep
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2020-10-19T03:01:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-19T10:10:14Z jmercouris: Xach: can you please add https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/feed to planet lisp?
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2020-10-19T10:51:22Z Xach: jmercouris: No
2020-10-19T10:51:40Z Xach: jmercouris: You write nonsense and don't seem to be able to accept correction. I don't want to expose that to a wider audience.
2020-10-19T10:54:54Z Xach: Or rather, I don't want to actively help expose it - it can get plenty of exposure through many other means without my assistance.
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2020-10-19T11:01:13Z jackdaniel: wom 2
2020-10-19T11:01:20Z jackdaniel: win, finger slip
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2020-10-19T11:27:44Z Nilby: The things in https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/articles don't trigger my lisp nonsense meter very strongly. Is there something I'm missing?
2020-10-19T11:28:13Z Xach: Nilby: years of history on #lisp adds some context
2020-10-19T11:28:36Z Nilby: Ah. okay.
2020-10-19T11:28:57Z Xach: I skimmed through the non-marketing articles for Lisp info - one of the first that jumped out says "closer-mop is not portable"
2020-10-19T11:29:09Z jmercouris: Xach: OK
2020-10-19T11:29:23Z jmercouris: no need to be so rude
2020-10-19T11:29:53Z Xach: It's certainly possible that closer-mop is unsuitable for some reason but portability is a goal and if it falls short some context would be useful.
2020-10-19T11:30:14Z Nilby: Sorry. I'm not trying to stir up trouble.
2020-10-19T11:30:26Z jmercouris: You aren’t
2020-10-19T11:30:28Z Xach: No problem.
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2020-10-19T11:30:37Z cl-arthur: a non-portable portability/conformance library would be a nice paradox
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2020-10-19T11:34:05Z Nilby: portability.cl does report closer-mop favoribly
2020-10-19T11:34:56Z jackdaniel: portability libraries are not "universally" portable by definition, because their purpose is to span multiple implementations (so each implementation is special-cased)
2020-10-19T11:35:45Z jackdaniel: still, they are far more portable than implementation-specific package; also they usually leave door open for adding support for new implementations by providing convenient api
2020-10-19T11:35:58Z Nilby: If ½ my code was ½ as portable I might be ½ way there.
2020-10-19T11:36:34Z jackdaniel: :-)
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2020-10-19T11:58:06Z jmercouris: Xach: it would also help if you read the article honestly without preconception
2020-10-19T11:58:34Z jmercouris: here is the context: "We first tried to set the slot default value directly by leveraging the introspection library closer-mop. It worked with the SBCL compiler but was not portable and very brittle, it was particularly difficult to handle inheritance correctly."
2020-10-19T11:58:55Z jmercouris: clearly we are saying that setting the slot default value is not portable
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2020-10-19T12:01:02Z Xach: so clearly.
2020-10-19T12:01:10Z jmercouris: lol, whenever you are wrong, you refuse to admit it
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2020-10-19T12:01:38Z jmercouris: in my many years on this channel, I have yet to notice you admitting a mistake
2020-10-19T12:01:57Z jackdaniel: please refrain from making personal remarks
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2020-10-19T12:02:25Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: interesting how you didn't make a comment when Xach said that I just "spew nonsense", apparently, not a personal attack?
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2020-10-19T12:04:12Z cl-arthur: how did you try to use closer-mop to set the default values of the slots? Isn't setting the default values as easy as supplying a :initform or some :default-initargs?
2020-10-19T12:04:32Z jmercouris: cl-arthur: it is about taking a class that exists, and changing the default value
2020-10-19T12:04:40Z jackdaniel: putting my opinion aside, the former was explanation why he refuses to included what you write (i.e "because it is a nonsense"), the above otoh is ad hominem kind of argumentation
2020-10-19T12:04:42Z jmercouris: not about redefining a class or defining a class
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2020-10-19T12:05:19Z jmercouris: so imagine we have class X with slot Y with a default value of 5 or something
2020-10-19T12:05:30Z jmercouris: now we want to change to have a default value of 7 for new instantiations
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2020-10-19T12:06:03Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: ah, so if we provide an explanation, we can freely insult people?
2020-10-19T12:07:24Z jackdaniel: I think that you've missed the point; either way please stop.
2020-10-19T12:07:47Z jmercouris: See through your bias, and see what you've written is false, he did not say my writing was nonsense, he said I write nonsense
2020-10-19T12:08:11Z jackdaniel: be as it may (I'm certain that I have some biases), I still urge you to stop.
2020-10-19T12:08:15Z jmercouris: We've had this exact discussion many times, where you point out the difference between the noun and the verb
2020-10-19T12:08:22Z jmercouris: anyways, this is off topic, so I will end it here
2020-10-19T12:08:27Z jackdaniel: thank you
2020-10-19T12:09:38Z jackdaniel: if you want to customize the initform, you are looking for the generic function slot-definition-initform
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2020-10-19T12:10:24Z jackdaniel: s/customize the initform/customize the form used to initialize the slot when no initarg is supplied/
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2020-10-19T12:18:39Z cl-arthur: should be possible to e.g. setf the initform/initfunction of the existent slots of an existent class appropriately when loading a config, yeah
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2020-10-19T12:21:14Z jackdaniel: cl-arthur: afaik it is not an accessor (only a reader), so you can't effectively setf it and expect that make instance will work
2020-10-19T12:21:18Z jackdaniel: you need to define a method
2020-10-19T12:21:24Z Nilby: Is there some accepted way or library for user object configuration/customization? I know about Shinmera's ubiquitous, but it's a little diffrent goals. I have a couple of ways that I'm not statisfied with. How does CLIM handle it? It seems like anything in CL must be better than "custom" in Emacs.
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2020-10-19T12:22:50Z jackdaniel: (also, changing a method a standard slot definition won't probably have an effect, one would need to have their own slot definition class)
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2020-10-19T12:25:45Z cl-arthur: jackdaniel: you're right, they're just defined as readers in the spec
2020-10-19T12:26:09Z scymtym: Nilby: i made https://github.com/scymtym/configuration.options which has a moderately flexible core but is a bit biased towards configuration via files, environment variables and commandline options. i think i made a CLIM-based configuration editor for it, but there would be no way to persist the changes, so that's only semi-useful
2020-10-19T12:26:44Z Nilby: scymtym: Thanks! I'll check it out.
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2020-10-19T12:28:32Z Nilby: scymtym: Very impressive :)
2020-10-19T12:29:12Z scymtym: thanks
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2020-10-19T12:30:01Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: one way to do that (and it will /probably/ work) is: http://turtleware.eu/static/paste/3094e785-zzz.txt
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2020-10-19T12:38:33Z jackdaniel: or, you could return some function that is global and is properly redefined (that is that after redefinition it is eq to itself - i.e a generic function)
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2020-10-19T12:45:35Z cl-arthur: or metaclass -> slot-definition subclass w/ config-value as extra slot -> populate those when loading config -> make a method on slot-definition-initfunction like (if (config-value ...) (wrap-config-value ...) (call-next-method)).
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2020-10-19T12:46:27Z jackdaniel: yes, having a custom effective slot definition class is the way, that's why I've said "probably"
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2020-10-19T12:47:32Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: thanks for the ideas
2020-10-19T12:47:54Z jmercouris: we’ve already committed to a different strategy for now, but maybe some of these concepts could be useful again for us
2020-10-19T12:49:07Z jackdaniel: if I had wanted to customize a new instance slot values, I'd simply write initialize-instance method, there is no need to use mop here
2020-10-19T12:49:55Z jackdaniel: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((thing foo) &rest args) (setf (slot-value thing 'x) *my-new-default-value*))
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2020-10-19T12:52:01Z jackdaniel: or even better (if it is a value, not a form), use default-initargs
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2020-10-19T12:52:26Z jackdaniel: :default-initargs :a *foo-s-default-value*
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2020-10-19T12:52:36Z jackdaniel: so many options
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2020-10-19T12:53:13Z cl-arthur: a global map from class/slotd to config values, and some initialization method specialized on a mixin also seems decently clean yeah
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2020-10-19T12:55:13Z jackdaniel: hm, til you could put a form as a default-initarg, however it is not surprising after a thought, so scratch the part "if it is a value, not a form"
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2020-10-19T14:34:58Z jmercouris: there are many options indeed
2020-10-19T14:35:06Z jmercouris: however we wanted to avoid the usage of global
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2020-10-19T14:35:48Z jmercouris: globals, and we wanted to actually change the classes themselves so that inspecting them would show new default value init forms
2020-10-19T14:37:19Z _death: from what I gathered it sounds like you wanted to avoid something like "factory method" and instead chose to redefine classes?
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2020-10-19T14:51:05Z _death: by "factory method" I mean you could have something like a *configuration* special variable that a user sets to (make-instance 'my-configuration ...) and then there are methods like (defmethod config-create-buffer ((config my-configuration) &rest args) (apply #'make-instance 'my-buffer args)) and possibly a convenience function create-buffer that passes *configuration* to config-create-buffer
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2020-10-19T14:56:17Z _death: or maybe something contextly
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2020-10-19T14:59:42Z jackdaniel: the most portable way to change the initform (and the associated function) is to redefine the class, common lisp has your back and that operation has well-defined semantics (i.e your instances won't stop working etc)
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2020-10-19T15:10:10Z cl-arthur: That reminds me - what's the cleanest way to invoke a macro at runtime? Any better option than giving a list-representation of the macro form to eval/compile?
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2020-10-19T15:10:29Z phoe: invoke, you mean macroexpand?
2020-10-19T15:10:37Z Bike: what do you want to "invoke"?
2020-10-19T15:11:17Z beach: Or (funcall (macro-function 'foo) <form> <environment>) if for some reason you don't want to use macroexpand.
2020-10-19T15:11:23Z phoe: a macro function is a standard function that translates from Lisp data to Lisp forms; you can call this function it by calling MACROEXPAND{,-1}
2020-10-19T15:11:28Z jackdaniel: if you need to expand the code at runtime, then eval is /the/ way (another is to rethink design, it is usually some misconception about your own program)
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2020-10-19T15:12:32Z jackdaniel: also, if you have a macro that takes a few parameters and a body to create a context, you may consider creating macros in a style that it expands into a funcall that passes a continuation
2020-10-19T15:13:16Z jackdaniel: i.e (defmacro foo (x &body body) `(flet ((,gensymed () ,@body)) (invoke-with-foo x (function ,gensymed))))
2020-10-19T15:13:23Z _death: beach: wouldn't first class environments also make sense in that configuration scenario?
2020-10-19T15:13:58Z jackdaniel: _death: wouldn't there be two different classes then? I think that would be undesireable
2020-10-19T15:14:35Z _death: jackdaniel: can't one environment inherit from another?
2020-10-19T15:14:58Z jackdaniel: sure, but then you have one class object (hence, one initform)
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2020-10-19T15:15:27Z beach: _death: Definitely.  That's how I use them.
2020-10-19T15:16:07Z beach: ... er, I probably misunderstood the question.
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2020-10-19T15:16:30Z beach: _death: You mean the scenario that jmercouris is talking about?
2020-10-19T15:16:40Z _death: jackdaniel: I'm suggesting a user create his own class that inherits from the default class (or some subclass of it)
2020-10-19T15:17:03Z _death: beach: yes
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2020-10-19T15:17:20Z jackdaniel: I fail to see why would you need a separate environment to subclass a class
2020-10-19T15:17:24Z beach: _death: I haven't really followed the discussion.  Sorry.
2020-10-19T15:18:29Z jackdaniel: unless you want to have two classes designated by the same symbol in different environments
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2020-10-19T15:18:49Z jackdaniel: (where one is a subclass of the other one)
2020-10-19T15:18:53Z cl-arthur: "invoke" - expand the macro form and execute the results. Yeah, seems to be eval.
2020-10-19T15:18:53Z _death: jackdaniel: so in E1 there'll be a buffer class, and in E2 there will be a different buffer class that inherits from e1:buffer.. then (make-instance 'buffer) can be used
2020-10-19T15:20:00Z _death: jackdaniel: exactly.. because from reading jmercouris's article, it sounds like they go through all that trouble just so they can say (make-instance 'user-buffer)
2020-10-19T15:20:08Z cl-arthur: I've seen some (funcall `(lambda () (some-macro ...)) which incidentally work in certain implementations but just hide the eval-iness, I suppose.
2020-10-19T15:20:24Z jackdaniel: I think that this could be done, however I would argue that packages are much better fit (and of course all other ways we've discussed)
2020-10-19T15:20:37Z phoe: likely (funcall (compile nil `(lambda ...)))
2020-10-19T15:21:02Z phoe: or (funcall (coerce `(lambda ...) 'function))
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2020-10-19T15:21:21Z jackdaniel: (nom-nom-nom `(lambda () (some-macro)))
2020-10-19T15:21:23Z phoe: both are ways to sidestep eval at runtime, and are mostly equivalent to eval at runtime except they can form closures
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2020-10-19T15:21:24Z _death: jackdaniel: packages always seemed a clunky way to do that.. you can't even redefine them
2020-10-19T15:22:22Z _death: jackdaniel: also, it would involve re-reading things
2020-10-19T15:22:24Z jackdaniel: perhaps, either way thanks for elaborating, now I understand better what you've meant
2020-10-19T15:22:38Z cl-arthur: jackdaniel: Agree that creating function seams to expand to when possible is nice. (invoke-with-foo)
2020-10-19T15:24:50Z cl-arthur: phoe: coercing to function is a fun one, haven't seen that before.
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2020-10-19T15:25:12Z jackdaniel: cl-arthur: it may be event easily automated, you may check out a function gen-invoke-trampoline in climi package (McCLIM repository)
2020-10-19T15:25:42Z jackdaniel: s/event/even/
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2020-10-19T15:26:19Z jmercouris: _death: your understanding is completely correct
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2020-10-19T15:27:03Z jmercouris: we want to redefine the classes instead of using factories
2020-10-19T15:27:09Z cl-arthur: jackdaniel: cheers, will check it out
2020-10-19T15:27:21Z jackdaniel: hint: then redefine them!
2020-10-19T15:27:26Z _death: jmercouris: to me that seems vulgar
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2020-10-19T15:31:02Z _death: redefining classes is setting globals.. whereas with my "factory method" approach there is a single global that determines everything
2020-10-19T15:31:57Z _death: (so it's likely you don't want to set it directly, but call a function that can have hooks etc.)
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2020-10-19T15:46:59Z _death: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2084#2084
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2020-10-19T17:51:24Z jmercouris: _death: that just changes class instances
2020-10-19T17:51:41Z jmercouris: we want to change future instantiations of a class
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2020-10-19T20:14:59Z jasom: hmm, is there no way to get the source port with sb-bsd-sockets:socket-receive?
2020-10-19T20:15:26Z _death: jmercouris: if you're referring to my paste, I didn't intend it as a solution to your issue
2020-10-19T20:15:58Z jasom: ah, found the answer to my own question; the port is returned as the 4th value
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2020-10-19T22:24:44Z dbotton_: is there a squeak/pharo like x-platfrom graphical environment available for common lisp? in some ways portacle/emas (sans graphics) fills that niche but even so
2020-10-19T22:25:10Z phoe: nope.
2020-10-19T22:25:18Z phoe: McCLIM is not yet there
2020-10-19T22:25:43Z phoe: everything else that is somewhat usable that I am aware of depends on foreign libraries, like qtools/commonqt which is what I use
2020-10-19T22:25:54Z phoe: but that's not pharo-level of GUI integration
2020-10-19T22:26:30Z dbotton_: McCLIM is intended to offer that?
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2020-10-19T22:32:32Z aeth: dbotton_: X is designed to permit a client-server separation and there's an X client in pure CL called CLX so McCLIM using the CLX backend on Linux or similar Unix systems can offer a pure CL experience with no foreign libraries.
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2020-10-19T22:33:55Z aeth: Everything else will require CFFI, although it can still be effectively "zero dependency" if it directly calls the exposed OS APIs.
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2020-10-19T22:34:55Z dbotton_: so the idea is use emacs and x - but nothing as tightly integrated as pharo?
2020-10-19T22:37:11Z dbotton_: just seems that lisp would be ideal for that sort of environment as well.
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2020-10-19T22:44:36Z aeth: dbotton_: the problem is that any editor/IDE has to compete with the flawed, but good-enough Emacs in order to get users, so no project has really gotten any momentum
2020-10-19T22:44:52Z aeth: feel free to write your own IDE, but you'll probably be writing it in Emacs
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2020-10-19T22:46:05Z dbotton_: perhaps may, have done before
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2020-10-19T22:51:09Z dbotton_: but what though I am thinking about creating is something more like squeak or pharo
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2020-10-19T23:08:58Z phoe: that is acceptable too
2020-10-19T23:08:59Z Gnuxie[m]: Tbh though, if someone put enough time to it, it is totally possible to beat Emacs+SLIME, it's relatively straight forward what would need to be done
2020-10-19T23:12:51Z phantomics: Last time I checked Swank was woefully undocumented
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2020-10-19T23:17:29Z phantomics: Which makes it tough to develop an alternative Slime UX
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2020-10-19T23:23:31Z Gnuxie[m]: I meant that it is clear what you would have to do, not that it was gonna be easy
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2020-10-20T02:22:53Z aeth: Gnuxie[m]: I think the issue is one of time. Generally the way to get enough time to do it is to get paid to do a job in a related thing and there just aren't enough CL jobs yet.
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2020-10-20T03:05:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-20T05:15:09Z beach: I thought the standard had a predicate to test whether an object exists anywhere in a tree of conses and atoms, but I can't find it.  Did I make that up?
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2020-10-20T05:21:45Z aeth: reminds me of this, which is slightly different... https://lisptips.com/post/43404489000/the-tree-walkers-of-cl
2020-10-20T05:22:23Z beach: Thanks.
2020-10-20T05:22:36Z aeth: (just have the predicate return early)
2020-10-20T05:23:27Z aeth: (or, actually, the second one, tree-equal already does that)
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2020-10-20T05:24:13Z beach: Ah, yes.  Good point.
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2020-10-20T07:30:34Z jedii: is lisp more productive than smalltalk or forth
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2020-10-20T07:31:15Z beach: There is no good way to measure productivity of a programming language.
2020-10-20T07:31:48Z beach: You may look into two papers.  One by Ron Garret/Erran Gat, and another by Hudak and Jones.
2020-10-20T07:32:03Z beach: They give some hints, but that's all you can hope for.
2020-10-20T07:32:25Z beach: I don't know whether they compare to Smalltalk or Forth, though.
2020-10-20T07:34:03Z beach: The article by Ron Garret is entitled "Lisp as an Alternative to Java".
2020-10-20T07:35:37Z beach: The one by Hudak and Jones is entitled "Haskell vs Ada vs C++ vs Awk vs ... An Experiment in Software Prototyping Productivity."
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2020-10-20T07:41:19Z jedii: hmmm
2020-10-20T07:41:24Z jedii: thx
2020-10-20T07:41:37Z shka_: it is a psychological problem and not many scientists there are interested in programming as it seems
2020-10-20T07:42:40Z jedii: picolisp looks wow    database n web built in and database scales to N nodes.....hoyl crap
2020-10-20T07:42:49Z jedii: forth claims to be smaller simlper programs
2020-10-20T07:43:14Z jedii: and pharo.org claims by far most produtive since abstracts away other stuff liek js html etc
2020-10-20T07:43:30Z jedii: I just want to get rich and have fun doing software
2020-10-20T07:43:44Z jedii: hate devops agiel kubernetes erraform bs
2020-10-20T07:43:49Z jedii: terraform barf
2020-10-20T07:44:02Z jedii: gnoga.com interesting ADA
2020-10-20T07:44:13Z jedii: happstakc.com haskell
2020-10-20T07:44:22Z jedii: happstack.com
2020-10-20T07:45:54Z no-defun-allowed: If I was in a worse mood, I would say something like "you wouldn't need a large N (in your database, provided it's CPU bound) if you had a compiler."
2020-10-20T07:46:19Z shka_: no-defun-allowed: nice to see you in a good mood :-0
2020-10-20T07:46:30Z no-defun-allowed: You have cl-who to generate HTML, Parenscript for JavaScript, probably something like that for CSS too.
2020-10-20T07:47:33Z shka_: jedii: to paraphrase Chris Lattner from the lex podcast, the better language is the language that allows creating better libraries
2020-10-20T07:47:39Z shka_: that work together
2020-10-20T07:49:04Z jedii: ok so where would you keep your data?
2020-10-20T07:49:29Z jedii: postgresql and scylladb.com seem strong or could a lisp thing like manardb do the jobs?
2020-10-20T07:49:46Z shka_: i just use posgresql
2020-10-20T07:49:47Z no-defun-allowed: You could use the filesystem, a database (for example, postmodern abstracts away Postgres pretty well), or something else.
2020-10-20T07:50:01Z shka_: postmodern <3
2020-10-20T07:50:03Z jedii: and while I am at it....once you use postgreqsl the art of psotgresql gy says save 1,000s of lines of code by simply doing most work inside teh db and have thing web layer
2020-10-20T07:50:29Z jedii: in which casw waht abotu naverver+tcl+psotgresql combo would that beat a list solution?
2020-10-20T07:50:57Z shka_: no, not really
2020-10-20T07:51:03Z jedii: I mean when I think about it complexity in tabes
2020-10-20T07:51:06Z jedii: tables
2020-10-20T07:51:22Z jedii: my brain hurts
2020-10-20T07:51:39Z no-defun-allowed: Could you retype your...fourth last message please? (beginning "in which case what about...")
2020-10-20T07:52:08Z jedii: Ok say we have a postgresql db and then a web gui
2020-10-20T07:52:21Z jedii: naviserver(aolerver)+tcl+postgresql13
2020-10-20T07:52:38Z jedii: vs lisp + postmodern +postgresql13 + antiweb?
2020-10-20T07:52:50Z shka_: jedii: you can have your server in lisp
2020-10-20T07:52:59Z jedii: or would it be lisp +hunentoot+postmodern+postgresql13
2020-10-20T07:53:06Z shka_: yes
2020-10-20T07:53:21Z no-defun-allowed: CL would blow Tcl out of the water in terms of performance. The author of the latter basically invented the application/scripting language fallacy by my records.
2020-10-20T07:53:26Z shka_: postmodern nicely integrates pg into lisp, hunchentoot is lisp to begin with
2020-10-20T07:53:34Z shka_: so it is tightly knitted together
2020-10-20T07:54:02Z jedii: but I have to learn lisp
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2020-10-20T07:54:24Z shka_: lisp contrary to the popular opinion is not that difficult language to learn
2020-10-20T07:54:40Z shka_: it has just step initial learning curve
2020-10-20T07:54:54Z jedii: and the guy who wrote the art of postgresql claims if you model things in tables then you save 1,000s of lines of code doing things in programming lang you can replace with queries
2020-10-20T07:55:22Z shka_: that's probably true, but what about things which you cannot do in PG?
2020-10-20T07:55:29Z jedii: heh
2020-10-20T07:55:49Z shka_: like for instance drawing plots?
2020-10-20T07:55:50Z jedii: I have some time on my hands and an archlinux desktop
2020-10-20T07:55:59Z no-defun-allowed: That is usually true, if it's not possible to embed a declarative language in your programming language. But then appropriating a SQL server is probably easier than rolling your own querying stuff.
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2020-10-20T07:56:07Z jedii: so I could get my shit together and laern lisp
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2020-10-20T07:56:49Z jedii: what about something like manardb? would that and lisp together let me ignore psotgresql?
2020-10-20T07:57:06Z jedii: I wonder how perform ..
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2020-10-20T07:57:34Z jedii: also what about SBCL vs clisp
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2020-10-20T07:57:56Z jedii: sorry I rarely get to chat with real lisp programmers
2020-10-20T07:58:19Z jedii: drawling plots like for stocks and moniroting?
2020-10-20T07:58:37Z jedii: monitoring and trending and dashboards (barf)
2020-10-20T07:58:44Z shka_: use sbcl
2020-10-20T07:58:49Z no-defun-allowed: I think a good SQL database would (unfortunately?) be slower than manardb, and may handle crashing better.
2020-10-20T07:58:56Z no-defun-allowed: SBCL, again, blows CLISP out of the water in terms of performance.
2020-10-20T07:59:03Z aeth: CLISP and SBCL are on opposite extremes. Basically: low ram usage but slow <---------------------> high ram usage but fast
2020-10-20T07:59:10Z aeth: SBCL is on the "fast" side of things
2020-10-20T07:59:10Z pve: I love postgresql, but when my queries become longer than half a page, I start to rethink my life choices
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2020-10-20T07:59:47Z pve: re: putting business logic inside the db
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2020-10-20T08:00:10Z beach: shka_: It would be possible to do a scientific study concerning the productivity of programming languages, but it would be extremely costly.  You would have to have many different teams for each programming language, and you would need to have them develop code for the same specification.
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2020-10-20T08:01:03Z jedii: so say I ignored postgresql
2020-10-20T08:01:08Z no-defun-allowed: I've seen some long JOIN things that make me never want to touch a database again, but to be fair "long" for a query is about 10 lines to me.
2020-10-20T08:01:19Z jedii: in lisp how would I keep data long term?
2020-10-20T08:01:40Z shka_: beach: Probably? It seems to be the bare minimum conditions for the experiment. I think there may be more to consider.
2020-10-20T08:01:41Z ck_: beach: how would you isolate the influence of language versus, say, standard libraries?
2020-10-20T08:01:42Z pve: jedii: you should not ignore postgresql
2020-10-20T08:01:49Z jedii: I dream of makign abstractions until lisp simply gives me the things I want....
2020-10-20T08:02:20Z beach: ck_: I don't know.  And maybe I shouldn't.  I mean, the existence of libraries influences the productivity.
2020-10-20T08:02:33Z shka_: for instance, for kicks, let's start throwing random changes into specification of the project while the team is working and see how quickly they can adapt
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2020-10-20T08:02:59Z shka_: this goes into the some evil scientist domain
2020-10-20T08:03:09Z jedii: there should be a programming tournment like with 64 teams like march madness basketball
2020-10-20T08:03:15Z beach: shka_: That would be very tricky to do systematically.
2020-10-20T08:03:21Z no-defun-allowed: It depends on how you want to access the data. If you just need to dump it all, then load it later, the Lisp printer or something like conspack could do.
2020-10-20T08:03:57Z jedii: ok say  I had a dating website
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2020-10-20T08:04:13Z shka_: beach: that's what i meant that it is actually psychological problem (and hard one on top of that)
2020-10-20T08:04:23Z jedii: nothgin fancy jsut picutres and desciription and search n filter
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2020-10-20T08:05:00Z beach: shka_: Sure, but psychologists are very good with science.
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2020-10-20T08:05:05Z jedii: lisp could record path to a set of pictures and a terxt blurb and then messages from those interested
2020-10-20T08:05:21Z jedii: in my mind simple
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2020-10-20T08:05:44Z jedii: but how to make the upload button and web form for search or filter for onyl people in my home city..
2020-10-20T08:05:52Z shka_: beach: some are, some are not, but then you have to find some with the interest in programming
2020-10-20T08:06:05Z no-defun-allowed: Implementing a filter efficiently is fairly fancy, but if you don't have so many objects to filter, then you could naïvely scan objects in memory.
2020-10-20T08:06:14Z beach: shka_: Yes, I meant the good ones. :)
2020-10-20T08:06:16Z jedii: I was reading HTMl on w3 other day the form is literally built into HTML
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2020-10-20T08:06:26Z no-defun-allowed: That is true.
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2020-10-20T08:07:13Z shka_: so i think that in the best case scenario we will have to wait a lot longer before such studies can be conducted
2020-10-20T08:07:23Z shka_: in a proper way that is
2020-10-20T08:07:29Z jedii: does cl-who have functions for making HTML form inputs and getting the input?
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2020-10-20T08:07:42Z shka_: and i don't even know what the proper way really means
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2020-10-20T08:08:01Z phoe: jedii: for making forms, sure, these are just parts of HTML
2020-10-20T08:08:15Z phoe: getting input isn't really the domain of CL-WHO though, that's the domain of the HTTP server
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2020-10-20T08:08:22Z beach: shka_: I don't think it will ever happen, unless some government (China? India?) decides to take action to make their citizens more productive than the compentition.
2020-10-20T08:08:26Z beach: competition
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2020-10-20T08:09:01Z beach: shka_: And if that happens, we are all in big trouble. :)
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2020-10-20T08:09:23Z jedii: has there even been a competition like each team gets I dunno 7 days to make xyz webapp
2020-10-20T08:09:37Z jedii: and each team bring its creation
2020-10-20T08:09:37Z shka_: beach: i think it may be performed via online collaboration with teams of volunteers in the future
2020-10-20T08:09:44Z jedii: lol
2020-10-20T08:09:51Z shka_: but i am not putting any bets on it
2020-10-20T08:10:08Z jedii: China seems to not be messing around when it comes to engineering and building.....even fi some videos say they have had missteps
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2020-10-20T08:10:10Z no-defun-allowed: I'd mostly be concerned with how they cope with their spaghetti code over the next 70 days.
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2020-10-20T08:10:44Z jedii: oh after the 7?  heh the spageti for 70?
2020-10-20T08:10:44Z phoe: jedii: that would be more of a question of what frameworks everyone utilizes to build that web app since building web apps is a well-developed problem and modern react or whatever builders allow you to slap together web apps really fast
2020-10-20T08:10:50Z phoe: but that's already #lispcafe discussion
2020-10-20T08:10:58Z phoe: since it has nothing to do strictly with Common Lisp
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2020-10-20T08:11:28Z jedii: but lisp could abstract the problem better and make things more maintainable?
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2020-10-20T08:11:36Z jedii: ultimatly simpler?
2020-10-20T08:12:01Z jedii: I never liked node apps or java or agile or devops
2020-10-20T08:12:05Z jedii: all smell bad to me
2020-10-20T08:12:12Z phoe: it's true that you can write spaghetti code in any language, but Lisp makes code much more inspectable and debuggable due to its interactive nature
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2020-10-20T08:12:25Z phoe: have you ever played around with the slime/sly inspector and debugger? or seen a video where someone does that?
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2020-10-20T08:12:43Z jedii: no I use vim
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2020-10-20T08:12:49Z jedii: emacs kicked my ass long ago
2020-10-20T08:12:59Z phoe: slimv/vlime also exist though I have never used them
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2020-10-20T08:13:59Z jedii: whats the niceness of slime sly?
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2020-10-20T08:14:55Z phoe: I can only say that they're very nice to program in because the interactive programming paradigm works really well in them; I don't know about vim plugins though because I never used them
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2020-10-20T08:17:38Z phoe: take a look at Baggers's Little Bits of Lisp series of videos
2020-10-20T08:17:55Z phoe: he shows Lisp basics while doing interactive programming all the time
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2020-10-20T08:18:55Z jedii: bookmarked on youtube
2020-10-20T08:19:20Z jedii: why is the node 1 page stuff and ract someone mentioned so poular?
2020-10-20T08:19:36Z phoe: that's already #lispcafe discussion I think :D
2020-10-20T08:19:43Z jedii: ah
2020-10-20T08:19:46Z jedii: ok back to lisp
2020-10-20T08:19:49Z phoe: we try to keep #lisp strictly on topic with regard to Common Lisp, and #lispcafe is for everything else
2020-10-20T08:20:13Z jedii: gentle intro to symbolic best intro? should  I reread?
2020-10-20T08:20:55Z jedii: PCL another one but I didnt like
2020-10-20T08:20:56Z phoe: have you programmed before?
2020-10-20T08:21:00Z jedii: not much
2020-10-20T08:21:05Z phoe: then read gentle
2020-10-20T08:21:08Z jedii: shell scripts
2020-10-20T08:21:11Z jedii: ok
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2020-10-20T08:21:25Z phoe: PCL is a good book except for chapter 3 which is confusing
2020-10-20T08:21:25Z jedii: all right good night all
2020-10-20T08:21:33Z jedii: thanks for all the tips
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2020-10-20T08:21:41Z phoe: so feel free to skip PCL chapter 3 until you go like midway in the book.
2020-10-20T08:21:43Z phoe: good night jedii
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2020-10-20T08:23:23Z pve: It seems to me that the productivity of a language could mean different things, depending on the experience level of the programmer or the size of the team.
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2020-10-20T08:25:01Z pve: A simple language with few pitfalls might make a junior programmer more productive.
2020-10-20T08:26:43Z aeth: and "productivity" could just mean "has a library that solves your problem for you"
2020-10-20T08:26:56Z aeth: that's generally the selling point of Python
2020-10-20T08:28:48Z moon-child: import antigravity
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2020-10-20T08:37:28Z pve: The scenario that is often painted seems to be one experienced programmer equipped with a "better" language (CL?) that can code circles around a team of programmers using a "lesser" language.
2020-10-20T08:38:01Z pve: To me, that just seems like it could be different kinds of "productivity".
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2020-10-20T08:45:48Z beach: pve: Some other factors are involved in that scenario.  First, the literature on software engineering suggests a factor 20 difference in productivity between different developers with the same training and the same experience.  Second, since communication grows quadratically with the number of members, a team with fewer members gets an advantage.
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2020-10-20T08:51:00Z pve: beach: Those are good points. A factor of 20 seems almost unbelievably high.
2020-10-20T08:51:26Z beach: It does.  But that seems to be what the authors agree upon.
2020-10-20T08:51:42Z beach: The article by Hudak and Jones suggests that it is possible.
2020-10-20T08:51:51Z beach: And my own experience confirms it too.
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2020-10-20T08:53:34Z beach: So, a good strategy for a company would be to try to measure this difference, and then fire the half of the staff below median.
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2020-10-20T08:54:38Z SAL9000: beach: maybe that's where the stack ranking methodology (which is still in vogue in some places, apparently) came from
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2020-10-20T08:55:29Z beach: If so, they totally blew it.
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2020-10-20T08:56:22Z SAL9000: As far as I understand, the biggest problem there is -- same as with genetic algorithms and neural networks -- measuring employee fitness objectively
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2020-10-20T08:56:59Z SAL9000: That is a problem in any business, but combining subjective measurement and stack ranking seems to cause a true dumpster fire.
2020-10-20T08:57:12Z beach: Exactly.  And that's how this discussion got started.  It is extremely hard, certainly at the level of a company or division, to measure productivity of programmers.
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2020-10-20T08:57:50Z shka_: i think that it may be even HARDER then we realize
2020-10-20T08:57:53Z aeth: SAL9000: another problem is that it keeps going. Assume you can fire half of the programmers. Well, next year you fire half again, even if they made the cut last time.
2020-10-20T08:58:07Z aeth: in a few years, there won't be any morale left
2020-10-20T08:58:08Z SAL9000: aeth: yep. I believe Google is still doing (more or less) that
2020-10-20T08:58:23Z SAL9000: fire the bottom 10%, promote the top 20%, etc.
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2020-10-20T08:58:29Z White_Flame: "Metrics are a great servant, but a terrible master"
2020-10-20T08:58:38Z shka_: aeth: now that's you encourage healthy cooperation!
2020-10-20T08:59:02Z shka_: such a strong incentive for supporting your colleagues
2020-10-20T08:59:09Z SAL9000: they have enough incoming wide-eyed graduates fresh out of uni to keep up with the churn, while the (upper) management feels somewhat secure in that they've risen above the game
2020-10-20T08:59:35Z SAL9000: s/wide-eyed/naive/
2020-10-20T08:59:46Z beach: A preferable technique would be to identify low-productivity developers and give them training to improve.
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2020-10-20T09:00:13Z SAL9000: assuming that those improvement plans don't become a black mark on one's permanent record, seems like a good idea
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2020-10-20T09:00:58Z shka_: it is even difficult to identify what low-productivity even means
2020-10-20T09:00:59Z SAL9000: from what I've heard, in many places being placed on an improvement plan is tantamount to imminent redundancy
2020-10-20T09:01:02Z beach: SAL9000: Well, some developers deserve what they get.  Like the "performance oriented" ones.
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2020-10-20T09:01:14Z shka_: because code is not the seldom output of the developer
2020-10-20T09:01:38Z SAL9000: beach: performance i.e. career performance, as opposed to program performance?
2020-10-20T09:02:02Z SAL9000: shka_: I assume that most companies would prefer to define "productivity" as "completes projects within the timeframes specified by management, come hell or high water"
2020-10-20T09:02:05Z beach: As in my term for what Carol Dweck calls "closed mindset".
2020-10-20T09:02:49Z SAL9000: https://fs.blog/2015/03/carol-dweck-mindset/ ?
2020-10-20T09:03:43Z beach: Yeah, or http://metamodular.com/Essays/psychology.html
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2020-10-20T09:05:25Z SAL9000: Right. I do find "Students do not know how to use a debugger. Instead, they waste time debugging programs with trace output." amusing given that my current boss (loudly) espouses the exact opposite :-)
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2020-10-20T09:05:54Z shka_: eh, i kinda like CL:TRACE
2020-10-20T09:06:05Z shka_: it is at times more useful then the debugger
2020-10-20T09:06:27Z SAL9000: (admittedly, this is in the context of a 20-year-old C++ codebase involving a JITted custom language)
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2020-10-20T09:33:56Z phoe: shka_: especially for pure/mostly pure functions
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2020-10-20T09:36:51Z shka_: phoe: yes, fancy trace preserves input objects and if you are avoiding mutation you can inspect
2020-10-20T09:36:57Z shka_: and it is rather handy
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2020-10-20T09:39:18Z White_Flame: and debuggers usually aren't that great in threaded environments, or in things where you could have I/O timeouts
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2020-10-20T09:52:22Z no-defun-allowed: Is it possible to use pprint dispatch without the pretty printing stuff?
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2020-10-20T09:54:34Z no-defun-allowed: I'm guessing it isn't, as I can't clear a pprint-dispatch table.
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2020-10-20T09:59:16Z jackdaniel: while I feel like a cave man when I'm putting (print "foo" *debug-io*) to debug a program (or break to introspect the environment with the debugger), I have to say that it gives me a good insight of how program works. I don't think that relying only on a debugger (even a superior debugger) would be as effective
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2020-10-20T09:59:33Z jackdaniel: otoh it does sound like a closed mindest on my part, so :)
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2020-10-20T10:01:33Z beach: I do that too, but that's just because the tools at my disposal are mediocre.
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2020-10-20T15:14:57Z jmercouris: if I type (type-of 10) -> (INTEGER 0 4611686018427387903)
2020-10-20T15:15:37Z jmercouris: how can I go from the symbol 'INTEGER to something I can check with subtypep
2020-10-20T15:15:59Z jmercouris: (subtypep (type-of "salmon") 'integer) -> NIL
2020-10-20T15:16:16Z jmercouris: sorry, brain freeze, I even wrote it earlier
2020-10-20T15:21:56Z Bike: (subtypep (type-of x) y) is just (typep x y) but worse
2020-10-20T15:22:14Z jmercouris: I want to be able to accept subtypes
2020-10-20T15:22:20Z Bike: what do you mean?
2020-10-20T15:22:31Z jmercouris: if I define a type B that is a subtype of A
2020-10-20T15:22:36Z Bike: (typep 0 'integer) will be true, obviously, even though 0 is also of type fixnum
2020-10-20T15:22:36Z jmercouris: I want the user to be able to supply A or B
2020-10-20T15:22:53Z jmercouris: maybe subtypep is not what I think it is
2020-10-20T15:23:28Z Bike: could you explain a higher level view of what you're trying to do?
2020-10-20T15:23:38Z jmercouris: I am trying to validate user input for users configuring things in Nyxt
2020-10-20T15:23:45Z jmercouris: to check that the user input is of a specified type
2020-10-20T15:24:00Z Bike: that sounds like a job for typep.
2020-10-20T15:24:07Z jmercouris: OK, I will trust your judgement
2020-10-20T15:24:17Z Bike: i mean, if you have a class A and a class B, and A is a subclass of B, and x is an instance of A
2020-10-20T15:24:24Z Bike: (typep x B) is true
2020-10-20T15:24:28Z Bike: that's what you're concerned about, right?
2020-10-20T15:24:31Z jmercouris: Ah, yes
2020-10-20T15:24:33Z jmercouris: that is it in fact
2020-10-20T15:25:00Z Bike: yeah, typep doesn't just check the direct class (the result of class-of)
2020-10-20T15:25:07Z jmercouris: OK, good to know, thank you
2020-10-20T15:25:09Z Bike: you have to go out of your way to do that, because it's kind of a weird thing to do
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2020-10-20T15:25:18Z Bike: violates whatchamacallit substitutibility
2020-10-20T15:25:26Z Bike: Liskov
2020-10-20T15:25:27Z jmercouris: ah, yes, the candy bar suitability
2020-10-20T15:25:48Z jmercouris: ah, didn't know this had a name, now I know
2020-10-20T15:26:07Z Bike: it's the kind of thing that's in theoretical texts that aren't read by very many actual programmers :v
2020-10-20T15:26:40Z Bike: you can tell because the definitions use greek symbols
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2020-10-20T16:06:16Z jackdaniel: damn lambda ,)
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2020-10-20T16:18:46Z edgar-rft is the lamb of da
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2020-10-20T16:39:41Z ym: Hi. When I put let-definition of array which is initialized with initial-element inside of do, I have re-initialized array each iteration. I'm sure SBCL optimizes such definition so that it won't allocate memory for array each iteration, but how do I check it?
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2020-10-20T16:44:42Z Xach: ym: i don't think it's a matter of optimization, but a matter of specification - the initial-element is evaluated only once to initialize, not repeatedly.
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2020-10-20T16:45:14Z Xach: ym: you can check by profiling the memory growth, but that is not super-simple
2020-10-20T16:45:36Z Xach: you could also check by tracing the array creation (this would be easiest if you wrap array creation with a function of your own)
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2020-10-20T16:48:58Z Xach: e.g. (defun make-my-array () (break) (make-array 42 ...))
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2020-10-20T16:50:06Z ym: Checked. Array being created each iteration.
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2020-10-20T16:50:41Z Xach: ym: Ok. I think I have misunderstood your description, then. What does the code look like, if you can share it?
2020-10-20T16:51:01Z ym: (dotimes (i 5)
2020-10-20T16:51:01Z ym: 	   (let ((a (make-array 5 :initial-element 0 :adjustable nil)))
2020-10-20T16:51:01Z ym: 	     (setf (aref a i) i)
2020-10-20T16:51:01Z ym: 	     (format t "~a~%" a)))
2020-10-20T16:51:46Z Xach: ok, no, there is no reasonable expectation of a single array allocation there.
2020-10-20T16:52:10Z phoe: you might need to declare A to be of DYNAMIC-EXTENT
2020-10-20T16:52:29Z phoe: in this particular case, I mean
2020-10-20T16:52:33Z Xach: when you talk about DO, i expected to see code with DO in it.
2020-10-20T16:52:34Z Bike: what outputs are you expecting here, exactly
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2020-10-20T16:56:51Z Bike: if you replace that make-array with make-my-array, semantically break must be called each iteration
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2020-10-20T17:05:47Z ym: Ok, thanks. Manually re-initializing seems clearer anyway.
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2020-10-20T17:08:18Z johnjay: question. am i supposed to type (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") everytime I start sbcl?
2020-10-20T17:08:33Z johnjay: i get error QL does not exist if i don't
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2020-10-20T17:09:27Z phoe: johnjay: (ql:add-to-init-file)
2020-10-20T17:10:20Z johnjay: that looks promising. also i didn't see that anywhere
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2020-10-20T17:10:41Z phoe: quicklisp prints that after installation
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2020-10-20T17:10:53Z phoe: but it's not too hard to miss it
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2020-10-20T17:16:30Z johnjay: must have missed it
2020-10-20T17:16:36Z johnjay: thanks
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2020-10-20T18:52:05Z Xach: Darn, I am bummed that you can't make a symbol-macro out of a keyword.
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2020-10-20T18:52:26Z Xach: Was hoping to cheat my way into a repl-command type thing.
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2020-10-20T18:52:53Z Xach: where :display does something like (display *)
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2020-10-20T19:08:56Z dlowe: you could still do it with a use-d package
2020-10-20T19:09:11Z dlowe: not as clever, though
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2020-10-20T19:17:38Z pve: Xach: Sounds like reader hack time: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2085
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2020-10-20T19:18:47Z dlowe: it's true that you don't *have* to use the basic reader on a repl
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2020-10-20T19:19:24Z pve: I think a separate REPL reader is a pretty neat idea
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2020-10-20T19:36:56Z rpg: phoe: therep?
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2020-10-20T20:12:15Z phoe: rpg: uhhhh what
2020-10-20T20:12:17Z phoe: I am here
2020-10-20T20:13:07Z rpg: phoe: It's OK, I just figured it out -- I was having troubles with cl4py with undefined functions.  Then I dug around and figured out that macros (for reasons that are obvious when I think about it) are not available
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2020-10-20T20:13:40Z rpg: But it was pretty puzzling until I figured that out.
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2020-10-20T20:15:48Z phoe: I am now curious why I would get called for cl4py!
2020-10-20T20:16:51Z phoe: pve: that'll almost work, lispworks doesn't let you defun on keywords for whatever reason
2020-10-20T20:17:02Z phoe: s/almost work/work almost everywhere/
2020-10-20T20:19:06Z pve: phoe: I did not know that
2020-10-20T20:19:58Z pve: well for lispworks one would have to put the functions in another package then
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2020-10-20T20:20:38Z rpg: phoe: Sorry -- somehow I got you and marco confused in my head!
2020-10-20T20:20:39Z phoe: or write a similar reader macro!
2020-10-20T20:20:44Z phoe: gasp
2020-10-20T20:21:29Z phoe: I have no idea how you could confuse us two, he's the cooler and smarter one and weighs much less
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2020-10-20T20:22:37Z pve: phoe: but does the spec say anything about defun on keywords?
2020-10-20T20:23:02Z phoe: AFAIK not
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2020-10-20T20:24:05Z Xach: lispworks complains though.
2020-10-20T20:25:19Z pve: I'm somewhat tempted to revise my paste
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2020-10-20T20:30:08Z pve: does lispworks complain now? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2085
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2020-10-20T20:30:44Z phoe: that's a hack, but it shouldn't complain now
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2020-10-20T20:32:33Z pve: phoe: more of a hack than the previous thing?
2020-10-20T20:32:43Z phoe: both are equally a hack
2020-10-20T20:32:47Z pve: yes
2020-10-20T20:33:39Z pve: but that's a hack I can live with, to be honest
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2020-10-20T20:57:10Z sgithens: I just noticed that the quickdocs powering the quicklisp search from the quicklist webisite has been shutdown... what is the current suggested way of searching quicklisp modules?
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2020-10-20T20:58:35Z phoe: quickref
2020-10-20T20:58:57Z phoe: (format nil "https://quickref.common-lisp.net/~A.html" system-name)
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2020-10-20T20:59:48Z sgithens: phoe thanks.  I guess they're all on one page so you can sort of search them
2020-10-20T21:00:48Z Xach: oops, darn it
2020-10-20T21:00:56Z Xach needs to update the search target
2020-10-20T21:02:54Z rpg: phoe: I have trouble with IRC handles....
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2020-10-20T21:07:55Z phoe: rpg: I was teasing, no problem with that
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2020-10-20T21:12:32Z phoe: oh snap
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2020-10-20T21:12:44Z phoe: reddit tells me the condition book's ebook version is now available
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2020-10-20T21:15:50Z dra: phoe: My dead tree edition is supposed to be delivered Nov 13.
2020-10-20T21:15:57Z dra: I hope people don't post spoilers. ;)
2020-10-20T21:16:05Z Xach: i think you can handle it
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2020-10-20T21:18:35Z phoe: Xach: ouch that was a good one
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2020-10-20T22:41:22Z jgodbout: Boston Lisp meetpu at 7: https://common-lisp.net/project/boston-lisp/
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2020-10-20T23:59:53Z jedii: I am learning lisp I feel so good.  Opens gentle introduction....
2020-10-21T00:00:09Z jedii: and I need gentle
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2020-10-21T03:00:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-10-21T03:02:02Z phantomics: Morning beach
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2020-10-21T07:42:10Z easye: Mornin'   Just to confirm an obscure part of our favorite CONS:  the only standard way to associate documentation with the MAKE-* constructor created by DEFSTRUCT is to use the DOCUMENTATION SETF expander?
2020-10-21T07:44:07Z phoe: easye: yes, it seeems that (setf (documentation 'make-foo 'function) "...") is the way to go
2020-10-21T07:44:28Z phoe: after (defstruct (foo ...) ...)
2020-10-21T07:44:40Z easye: phoe: thanks for the confirmation.
2020-10-21T07:44:43Z beach: easye: It's the way I recommend in other cases as well, since I don't think documentation belongs in the source code.
2020-10-21T07:45:13Z easye: That's a strong philosophical position.
2020-10-21T07:45:20Z beach: Documentation is for the user, whereas the person reading the code presumably knows how to use it already, so documentation is noise for the maintainer.
2020-10-21T07:45:55Z beach: The practice of putting documentation in the source code seems to encourage too brief documentation strings.
2020-10-21T07:46:17Z easye: Writing as an implementation maintainer, I don't find documentation to be noise at all.  I often forget things about something I wrote some time ago.
2020-10-21T07:46:36Z no-defun-allowed: Does bordeaux-threads define if a thread can release a lock that a different thread acquired? Or, to cut out the middleman, is there an easy to access implementation of a readers-writer lock?
2020-10-21T07:46:48Z beach: Like SBCL (documentation 'car 'function) => "Return the 1st object in a list." which is incomplete.
2020-10-21T07:47:12Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: AFAIK that's undefined by BT, but let me check
2020-10-21T07:47:30Z beach: easye: I didn't recommend eliminating the documentation.  Just putting it in a different place from that of the source code.
2020-10-21T07:47:42Z easye: But regardless of whether source code should contain documentation, I would argue that ANSI CL could use some way of documenting the constructor that DEFSTRUCT makes in the same form, otherwise such additions tend to get "lost" when moving code around.
2020-10-21T07:48:14Z easye: Sometimes what you call "documentation", I might soften as "annotation" to indicate that something is better than nothing.
2020-10-21T07:48:47Z beach: Oh, but comments exist for the maintainer.  I have nothing against those.
2020-10-21T07:48:59Z easye: Anyways, beach, it is an interesting, strong position to advocate.  It does require some level of tooling to keep the source and the docs in sync as well as docstrings.
2020-10-21T07:49:05Z beach: I mean, I have nothing against comments next to the source code.
2020-10-21T07:49:07Z phoe: no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/blob/master/apiv1/default-implementations.lisp#L120-L122
2020-10-21T07:49:21Z no-defun-allowed: Gotcha, thanks.
2020-10-21T07:49:22Z phoe: "It is an error to call this unless the lock has previously been acquired (and not released) by the same thread."
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2020-10-21T07:49:38Z phoe: so, the acquiring thread must also release it
2020-10-21T07:49:43Z beach: easye: Yes, and unfortunately we seem to lack good support for my position, at least at the moment.
2020-10-21T07:51:03Z easye: A lot of interesting stuff is happening with org-mode.
2020-10-21T07:51:30Z easye: But the presupposes "everyone" uses Emacs which is probably untennable.
2020-10-21T07:51:39Z easye: s/untennable/untenable/
2020-10-21T07:51:57Z beach: Especially since Emacs is not that great for editing Common Lisp code.
2020-10-21T07:52:05Z beach: It's the best we have, but it's not great.
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2020-10-21T07:54:13Z TMA: beach: It sounds like a sound position to me. Multiline docstrings are bothersome in the code. Single-line ones are not informative enough.
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2020-10-21T07:54:46Z cl-arthur: beach: what improvements/differences do you have in mind? (Or maybe there's some good discussion of emacs' deficiencies somewhere you can link me?)
2020-10-21T07:55:16Z beach: TMA: Definitely.  I sometimes use #.(format nil "...").  That way, I can at least indent the lines correctly, using ~@ to end the preceding ones.
2020-10-21T07:55:48Z beach: cl-arthur: Here is fine.
2020-10-21T07:56:12Z beach: Emacs doesn't really analyze the code very well, so it often can't distinguish between different roles of a symbol.
2020-10-21T07:56:28Z beach: Plus, indentation is based on regular expressions, which is often wrong.
2020-10-21T07:58:49Z beach: To get a better analysis, you can invoke the compiler, but then you have to it some key sequence, like C-c C-c.  It would be preferable to get feedback sooner, like for each keystroke.
2020-10-21T07:59:53Z phoe: the recent Online Lisp Meetings talk on Eclector already shows a bit of work that has been done towards that on the reader level, so before the code is read and passed to the compiler
2020-10-21T08:00:04Z beach: Emacs/SLIME can often indent code sort of OK-ish, but there is no feedback when indentation is bad.  Such feedback would catch mistakes like missing parentheses or too many closing parentheses much earlier.
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2020-10-21T08:01:02Z beach: phoe: Sort of.  But scymtym also included sneak previews of the next level of processing.
2020-10-21T08:01:29Z phoe: oh!
2020-10-21T08:01:33Z phoe: I see
2020-10-21T08:01:48Z beach: Unfortunately, he sometimes forgot to clearly distinguish between the different levels.
2020-10-21T08:02:18Z beach: Like Eclector can't tell that a number is an illegal function name.
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2020-10-21T08:02:40Z phoe: yes, that is what I was thinking
2020-10-21T08:03:30Z beach: That kind of real-time analysis is highly desirable, and Emacs is totally incapable of doing it.
2020-10-21T08:04:53Z beach: In my opinion, we still haven't figured out how to give feedback to the user, in a way that it is immediately obvious, yet still discreet.
2020-10-21T08:05:15Z cl-arthur: yeah, that sounds like it'd be really nifty
2020-10-21T08:05:25Z beach: Good! :)
2020-10-21T08:05:55Z beach: I think I know how to do it, but I am too busy with SICL at the moment.
2020-10-21T08:06:17Z easye: I thought there are facilities in contemporary Emacs that allows one to provide asynchronous messages, like flyspell does?
2020-10-21T08:06:55Z beach: You may be right, but how would you go about analyzing the contents at typing speed?
2020-10-21T08:07:13Z phoe: that'd likely require sending messages to swank and receiving them back for every keystroke
2020-10-21T08:07:40Z beach: Probably providing the entire buffer contents each time.
2020-10-21T08:07:55Z beach: Since our Common Lisp compilers can't really work incrementally.
2020-10-21T08:08:05Z phoe: probably doable but with either lots of overhead or lots of state synchronization
2020-10-21T08:08:10Z easye: I would have separate common lisp process running its analysis pass.  When it has something intelligent to report, it could message Emacs.  I would also rate-limit such messages to a reasonable time window.
2020-10-21T08:08:13Z phoe: (or both)
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2020-10-21T08:09:02Z beach: easye: I am thinking of essentially the very opposite structure.
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2020-10-21T08:09:30Z phoe: I imagine that you don't need to message the Common Lisp implementation if the editor is inside the Common Lisp implementation
2020-10-21T08:09:41Z beach: Exactly.
2020-10-21T08:09:42Z phoe: that would be a point for climacs or whatever other lisp-based editor
2020-10-21T08:09:46Z easye: My strategy would require that the process external to Emacs somehow be able to peek at the contents of a buffer without it being flushed to disk.
2020-10-21T08:09:59Z phoe: easye: and I don't know if that is doable easily
2020-10-21T08:10:13Z phoe: the best I can think of is RPC + sockets
2020-10-21T08:10:20Z beach: easye: Still, you can't run the compiler incrementally, so you would have to feed the entire buffer contents to it for every keystroke.
2020-10-21T08:10:24Z easye: Certainly, having the editor in CL would be the win.
2020-10-21T08:10:49Z OlCe: beach: Hi. Maybe should you have a look at Flycheck/Flymake if you have not already.
2020-10-21T08:11:03Z OlCe: beach: They are doing exactly that AFAIK.
2020-10-21T08:11:04Z beach: OlCe: Why is that?
2020-10-21T08:11:06Z easye: Yes, and "feeding the buffer" would probably slow down Emacs, so one would need an non-intrusive observer of some kind.
2020-10-21T08:11:14Z beach: OlCe: Analyzing Common Lisp code in real time?
2020-10-21T08:11:28Z OlCe: beach: Yes, sending the code to a separate process.
2020-10-21T08:11:42Z OlCe: beach: But, to be honest, this does not work that well.
2020-10-21T08:11:43Z beach: OlCe: I am saying that doing that won't work in this situation.
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2020-10-21T08:12:26Z OlCe: beach: Why is that? This is generally fast enough, even without incremental compilation.
2020-10-21T08:12:31Z beach: OlCe: Because you would still have to run the compiler for each keystroke, and you would have to send the entire buffer contents for each keystroke.
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2020-10-21T08:13:01Z OlCe: beach: Yes. FC mitigates that with options to send only X seconds after a keystroke with no other keystroke in the interval.
2020-10-21T08:13:27Z beach: You may even have to start a fresh Common Lisp image for each keystroke, since some compile-time side effect could influence the result.
2020-10-21T08:14:12Z OlCe: beach: For Emacs Lisp, I remember the Emacs process is forked. Don't remember what is done for CL.
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2020-10-21T08:14:50Z beach: OlCe: What we do know is that there is a wire protocol between Emacs and a Common Lisp process.
2020-10-21T08:14:59Z OlCe: beach: Clearly, you want (in some scenarios at least) a single image running which provides context.
2020-10-21T08:15:13Z beach: I do, yes.
2020-10-21T08:15:21Z OlCe: beach: Precisely to avoid launching a new image each time, and loading all packages.
2020-10-21T08:15:36Z beach: Exactly.
2020-10-21T08:15:53Z OlCe: beach: I find Slime support great in the sense that everything that is typed is xrefed to the running image.
2020-10-21T08:16:16Z OlCe: beach: In FC (or similar), I would want exactly that.
2020-10-21T08:16:19Z beach: I don't think that's true.
2020-10-21T08:16:28Z OlCe: beach: Didn't use much FC with CL up to now.
2020-10-21T08:16:42Z beach: If I type (defun foo (x) x) in a buffer, it is not available in the image.
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2020-10-21T08:17:35Z OlCe: beach: Yes, and personnally I prefer that behavior. But for automatic buffer checking, obviously, I would want the definition to be installed.
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2020-10-21T08:17:57Z beach: There is another alternative though.
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2020-10-21T08:18:36Z beach: Information about the function could be available in the compilation environment, but not in the startup environment, until the user wants to migrate it.
2020-10-21T08:19:04Z OlCe: beach: But then, we have to define the scope of these definitions. For example, up to which point do we reload files (such as the current ASDF system), because some other files may depend on function FOO, in the case you provide a new definition of FOO.
2020-10-21T08:19:25Z beach: So that if you type (defun foo (x) x) and then (defun bar (y) (foo y 234)) then you get a warning about the number of arguments to foo.
2020-10-21T08:19:49Z beach: The scope is that of the file compiler.
2020-10-21T08:19:49Z OlCe: beach: Yes, could be enough. And great on this example;
2020-10-21T08:20:11Z OlCe: beach: Yes, file scope is the obvious and first thing to do.
2020-10-21T08:20:19Z OlCe: beach: And then, this can be extended.
2020-10-21T08:20:22Z beach: You start with the startup environment, that you then don't change.  Then you define an incremental evaluation environment and an incremental compilation environment for the buffer.
2020-10-21T08:21:15Z beach: That way, the buffer will be analyzed with respect to the startup environment and the preceding code in the buffer, but the startup environment will be modified only when the user wants it to be.
2020-10-21T08:21:54Z OlCe: beach: This sounds great, at least in theory. I do not know much about how far you can manipulate environments in the current compilers.
2020-10-21T08:22:12Z beach: You can't.
2020-10-21T08:22:22Z beach: That's why I invented first-class global environments.
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2020-10-21T08:24:38Z OlCe: beach: Invented? They are dating back to CLtL2 at least. Are you that old? ;-)
2020-10-21T08:27:24Z beach: CLtL2 has a section on lexical environment.  Nothing on first-class global environments.
2020-10-21T08:28:28Z OlCe: beach: True. This is not the same thing. ;-)
2020-10-21T08:28:58Z beach: Not at all.  But we also fixed the broken definition of lexical environments in CLtL2 by creating Trucler.
2020-10-21T08:29:07Z beach: first-class global environments are implemented in Clostrum.
2020-10-21T08:29:14Z OlCe: beach: The hyperspec defines the environments you are talking about, but no mechanism to interact with them explicitly.
2020-10-21T08:29:27Z OlCe: beach: Clostrum?
2020-10-21T08:29:36Z phoe: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Clostrum
2020-10-21T08:30:17Z beach: OlCe: Yes, it does, and it also says that the startup environment, the evaluation environment, and the compilation environment are allowed to be one and the same in a conforming implementation.
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2020-10-21T08:30:46Z OlCe: beach: Exactly. I find it very unconvenient that they can be the same, truth said.
2020-10-21T08:31:01Z beach: OlCe: And since every existing Common Lisp implementation actually have only one environment, it is pretty useless for what I want to do.
2020-10-21T08:31:31Z beach: s/have/has/
2020-10-21T08:31:55Z beach: Thanks phoe.
2020-10-21T08:32:31Z OlCe: phoe: Thanks.
2020-10-21T08:32:35Z OlCe: Very interesting.
2020-10-21T08:32:48Z beach: OlCe: Then, all you need is a compiler that uses Clostrum and Trucler...
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2020-10-21T08:33:00Z beach: minion: Please tell OlCe about Cleavir.
2020-10-21T08:33:01Z minion: OlCe: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2020-10-21T08:33:30Z OlCe: beach: Yeah, thanks, I knew about SICL. Discovered it a few months ago by chance.
2020-10-21T08:33:39Z beach: I see.
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2020-10-21T08:34:36Z OlCe: beach: All these are works done at Strandh's lab, aren't they? Or are some "independent"?
2020-10-21T08:34:53Z OlCe: "are" -> "are there"
2020-10-21T08:35:04Z beach: Lucky for me, some other smart people are working on extracted parts.
2020-10-21T08:35:46Z beach: Bike and karlosz are working on Cleavir.  jackdaniel is working on Clostrum.  heisig wrote Trucler.  scymtym wrote most of Eclector.
2020-10-21T08:36:22Z beach: froggey provided streams.  lonjil is creating the printer.
2020-10-21T08:36:26Z OlCe: beach: So you're Robert Strandh, I presume? (Don't know if it's against IRC etiquette to ask for that.)
2020-10-21T08:36:39Z OlCe: Ok.
2020-10-21T08:36:48Z beach: The literal translation of "strand" is "beach", so yes.
2020-10-21T08:36:58Z beach: no-defun-allowed is creating the hash tables.
2020-10-21T08:37:04Z beach: I may have forgotten a few.
2020-10-21T08:38:14Z OlCe: beach: I'm very glad you are working on all this.
2020-10-21T08:38:24Z beach: OlCe: Many people here have met several times at the annual ELS, so we pretty much know who most people are.
2020-10-21T08:38:44Z OlCe: beach: Yeah. I guess I'll have to show up there some day.
2020-10-21T08:39:02Z beach: ... if we can just get rid of this virus, yeah.
2020-10-21T08:39:18Z OlCe: In fact, I know a bunch of you, but only by name and code.
2020-10-21T08:39:21Z OlCe: Yes...
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2020-10-21T08:39:54Z OlCe: beach: I even remember reading your rant about teaching computer science at universities.
2020-10-21T08:39:58Z flip214: beach: or in spite of it
2020-10-21T08:40:03Z easye: Unfortunately, it's looking like a couple years on COVID19.  And hopefully we don't get the next pandemic that fast.
2020-10-21T08:40:17Z OlCe: beach: and why teachers should not compromise and teach Lisp to their students.
2020-10-21T08:40:45Z beach: OlCe: That rings a bell.
2020-10-21T08:40:48Z no-defun-allowed: I'm still hoping to attend next year, though hope doesn't arrange for intercontinental travel--oh dammit. Well, in a couple more years, I won't have to schedule university around ELS.
2020-10-21T08:40:54Z OlCe: easye: You're right.
2020-10-21T08:41:05Z easye wishes he wasn't.  Sigh.
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2020-10-21T08:43:59Z OlCe: beach: I think garbage collection for example could benefit a lot from your approach of separating components.
2020-10-21T08:44:37Z OlCe: beach: This is a point I find weak in e.g., SBCL. But maybe there are ways to control it that I don't know.
2020-10-21T08:44:58Z OlCe: beach: More generally, I would like to have some Lisp with sections of code without garbage collection.
2020-10-21T08:45:21Z OlCe: beach: Built into the language. Because I can achieve some of that with alien functions.
2020-10-21T08:45:50Z OlCe: beach: Then, Lisp could go extremely low level, without external tools.
2020-10-21T08:46:17Z OlCe: beach: That's just a tiny example of what could be improved.
2020-10-21T08:46:27Z OlCe wish I had time for that
2020-10-21T08:46:50Z White_Flame: yeah, I'd like separate first class heaps/regions
2020-10-21T08:47:09Z OlCe: White_Flame: Would be great.
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2020-10-21T08:48:40Z beach: OlCe: The SICL specification contains a very long description of the design of the memory manager that I would like to use.  But it has not been tested.
2020-10-21T08:49:18Z beach: Why would you want to have sections without garbage collection?
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2020-10-21T08:52:43Z beach: OlCe: And I am not sure what you mean by my "approach of separating components".
2020-10-21T08:53:14Z OlCe: beach: For several reasons. To avoid GC pauses for real-time stuff. To be able to reclaim memory right away in case I know it was used only for temporary manipulations (a problem I hit with SBCL, may be a GC bug though, SBCL doesn't notice that and refuses to free it). To be able to use Lisp embedded. To avoid (SBCL again) having to set beforehand a big memory-mapped region sized against max anticipated memory use, which still will be
2020-10-21T08:53:14Z OlCe: filled with temporary stuff, using up memory against the whole system.
2020-10-21T08:53:25Z OlCe: beach: I agree that all these could be circumvented in some way.
2020-10-21T08:53:32Z OlCe: beach: But that's impractical.
2020-10-21T08:53:48Z OlCe: beach: Building compiler parts that can be (re)used separately.
2020-10-21T08:54:32Z beach: OlCe: Oh, but those are problems with the particular technique used by SBCL.  Not a general problem for garbage collectors.  And malloc/free is often slower than a good GC.  Plus the SICL GC is planned to be parallel and concurrent, running in multiple threads.
2020-10-21T08:55:03Z OlCe: beach: Yes. Good then! That's my primary reason to be excited about SICL.
2020-10-21T08:55:20Z beach: Excellent!
2020-10-21T08:56:18Z OlCe: beach: The only thing is that I'm not so keen on the GPL, but anyway... It's much much better than nothing.
2020-10-21T08:56:30Z beach: SICL is BSD
2020-10-21T08:56:36Z White_Flame: and the SICL GC will be implemented in Lisp?
2020-10-21T08:56:54Z beach: White_Flame: It already is, basically, except for the stack scanning part.
2020-10-21T08:57:00Z White_Flame: cool
2020-10-21T08:57:18Z OlCe: beach: Ah sorry, thought it was GPL. Perfect than!
2020-10-21T08:57:26Z OlCe: 'than' -> 'then'
2020-10-21T08:57:58Z beach: I find it very sad that people avoid the GPL, but that's the way it is.
2020-10-21T08:58:43Z beach: ... and that discussion is off topic anyway.
2020-10-21T08:59:19Z OlCe: beach: Yes, and no. People have to eat also. And the service model is great... for services, not so for developing long-term robust software.
2020-10-21T08:59:29Z OlCe: beach: Yes, off-topic, so I'm stopping here. ;-)
2020-10-21T09:10:14Z cl-arthur: "< OlCe> beach: I even remember reading your rant about teaching computer science at universities." - sounds like a fun rant, would be interested in knowing the main points. My experience of (recently) studying undergraduate compsci was largely disappointing. Lowest common denominator, very 'practical' orientation. Algorithms and some exposure to the CTMCP book were the highlights from the courses. I
2020-10-21T09:10:20Z cl-arthur: suppose it did create a background environment where Graham's essays advocating lisp were personally appealing through contrarianism, though.
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2020-10-21T09:13:04Z beach: cl-arthur: I have produced several rants over the years.  My current one is that teachers of undergraduate courses are often incompetent for the task.  A typical teacher did the same undergraduate degree, then specialized for a master, and then even more for a PhD.  So that teacher has written very little code, and has not studied the undergraduate topics beyond the course contents.
2020-10-21T09:14:33Z beach: My example of binary search is typical.  Half the books, written by highly experienced academic people, get it wrong, in that their code takes twice the time it has to.
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2020-10-21T09:15:17Z easye: I think that separating "Computer Science" from "Software Engineering" would be a good step.
2020-10-21T09:15:28Z beach: Indeed.
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2020-10-21T09:16:18Z decentyousername: I've just joined. What's the difference? Software engineering seems to me like the art of controlling complexity.
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2020-10-21T09:16:59Z easye: Computer Science would be more of a Venn intersection of Math and Physics; Software Engineering would be about programming computers.
2020-10-21T09:17:38Z ck_: decentyousername: the difference that one is more of a craft or trade, and computer science is more research oriented, in my opinion
2020-10-21T09:17:39Z beach: Furthermore, just to get back on topic, I used to be a bit apologetic about my preference for Common Lisp.  But the more I learn about other languages, the more I think Common Lisp (or something similar) should be taught in every undergraduate program (CS and SE) in order to deserve the name.
2020-10-21T09:17:40Z decentyousername: that's what I thought as well
2020-10-21T09:17:58Z White_Flame: programming is to software engineering is as metalworking is to mechanical engineering
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2020-10-21T09:19:03Z White_Flame: so programming, software engineering, and computer science are 3 different levels of study/practice
2020-10-21T09:19:08Z beach: Actually, strike the "(or something similar)".  I think we should insist on languages that have independent standards.
2020-10-21T09:20:02Z decentyousername: beach: I think the problem with teaching Common Lisp to the worker is that it takes more knowledge and maybe intelligence to rake in the benefits of Lisp.
2020-10-21T09:20:03Z OlCe: cl-arthur: The rant I was talking about: https://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/lisp.html
2020-10-21T09:20:10Z OlCe: cl-arthur: In French.
2020-10-21T09:20:33Z cl-arthur: beach: "independent standards" -> do you mean like ANSI standards etc, as opposed to the 'guiding implementation' of some other languages?
2020-10-21T09:20:44Z OlCe: Funny that you have these viewpoints on separating these disciplines.
2020-10-21T09:21:01Z beach: cl-arthur: Yes, standards published by organizations who have no interest in the implementations of it.
2020-10-21T09:21:02Z OlCe: On the contrary, I think that those involved in one should absolutely practice the others,
2020-10-21T09:21:06Z OlCe: to the extent possible.
2020-10-21T09:21:21Z easye: In many ways, having languages without independent standards returns us to the world of the 1960s which each computer installation had its own languages, tools, and practices.  We're just on a much bigger number of "computer installations"
2020-10-21T09:21:56Z no-defun-allowed: The DOM of that document appears to be broken; there are two </head>s instead of </title> </head> and Firefox puts everything in the title.
2020-10-21T09:22:35Z OlCe: no-defun-allowed: Yes, same here. Had to open the source.
2020-10-21T09:22:48Z White_Flame: OlCe: one can practice just one of the 3 without being very good at the others.  But they are distinguished fields of study at least, with CS being the primary one represented in academia, to the lack of the other 2
2020-10-21T09:23:16Z cl-arthur: OlCe: thanks, I'll see how nice a job google translate does :D
2020-10-21T09:23:19Z decentyousername: xlinks doesn't even display the page
2020-10-21T09:23:24Z p_l: of the "guiding implementation" languages, only one I know can be considered to have succeeded beyond its original implementation
2020-10-21T09:23:30Z p_l: and it involved ISO
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2020-10-21T09:24:40Z p_l: (Ruby community put in a lot of effort to both make a formal independent standard and a way to continue it, which is why there are multiple compatible Ruby implementations and the compatibility is stable, unlike say Python)
2020-10-21T09:25:00Z OlCe: White_Flame: Sure. But is naming and separating these a good way to attract people to these? In the short-term yes, but longer term? And what is going to happen if one of these replaces CS as the primary one? We'll have reverse problems them.
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2020-10-21T09:25:30Z White_Flame: OlCe: the primary point of distinguishing them is pointing out the lack of representation of some when there's an overfocus on others
2020-10-21T09:25:36Z OlCe: White_Flame: Really, I would prefer all of them to be under the same umbrella.
2020-10-21T09:25:55Z White_Flame: yep, it's all under "software development" imo
2020-10-21T09:26:03Z p_l would like to point out that "CS" isn't even the term used everywhere
2020-10-21T09:26:52Z White_Flame: yep, and it is of course a terrible name anyway
2020-10-21T09:27:17Z White_Flame: "computational calculus" or something might be more apt
2020-10-21T09:28:13Z OlCe: OlCe: Maybe "Computing Machinery" (could be a tribute to the ACM as well ;-)).
2020-10-21T09:28:25Z OlCe: OlCe: But I still prefer CS for the umbrella term.
2020-10-21T09:28:30Z White_Flame: I don't
2020-10-21T09:28:55Z no-defun-allowed: I feel like the ACM gets enough tributes with how it handles accessing papers.
2020-10-21T09:28:55Z White_Flame: doing "science" is not what progrmaming is about.  it's a background enrichment study
2020-10-21T09:29:33Z OlCe: OlCe: It is a science, in all the broad meanings of the word.
2020-10-21T09:29:38Z OlCe: Oups.
2020-10-21T09:30:07Z OlCe: White_Flame: Science can also be a synonym for art (how improper it may sound to scientists).
2020-10-21T09:30:08Z White_Flame: which is why I put it into quotes.  Doing the work/process of computer science has nothing to do with actually writing code
2020-10-21T09:30:26Z OlCe: White_Flame: And hacking is as much an art as (hard) science.
2020-10-21T09:30:34Z cl-arthur: seperating compsci as a discipline from general software development seems nice to me. creates better space and focus for theory etc. for those inclined/interested. Dijkstra's opinions on the topic of compsci vs. software engineering as expressed in e.g. EWD898 and EWD1036 are amusing, though.
2020-10-21T09:30:45Z White_Flame: just like doing material science has nothing to do with making widgets
2020-10-21T09:32:11Z White_Flame: and obviously, those just doing basic programming are not informed in nor practicing computer science
2020-10-21T09:32:23Z White_Flame: nor are they doing software engineering
2020-10-21T09:33:03Z beach: I consider something a "science" not as synonym for "good stuff", but for a discipline that uses the scientific method.  Then, mathematics and computer science do not qualify.
2020-10-21T09:33:44Z no-defun-allowed: Also, I vote for calling it computer-related magic.
2020-10-21T09:33:52Z White_Flame: but, you can still create working, delivered code by doing programming wihtout CS or SE
2020-10-21T09:34:35Z decentyousername: I'm for computer-related magic
2020-10-21T09:34:38Z beach: White_Flame: Yes, but it is extremely rare.  More common is that unqualified programmers create a total mess that is inefficient.
2020-10-21T09:34:44Z White_Flame: we conjure the spirits of the computer
2020-10-21T09:34:54Z White_Flame: beach: it's more applicable to very small scale
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2020-10-21T09:35:11Z White_Flame: eg hobby, simple automation scripts, etc
2020-10-21T09:35:13Z decentyousername: having the name of a computation gives you power over it.
2020-10-21T09:35:26Z decentyousername: magical
2020-10-21T09:35:27Z White_Flame: and stuff like hypercard
2020-10-21T09:35:34Z beach: White_Flame: What do you mean?  I have seen industry code of considerable size that I would not want to maintain.
2020-10-21T09:35:42Z White_Flame: I'm not talking about industry code at all
2020-10-21T09:35:54Z White_Flame: and again, small scale
2020-10-21T09:36:02Z White_Flame: on the order of maybe less than 200 loc
2020-10-21T09:36:05Z beach: I see.
2020-10-21T09:36:23Z beach: Sure, then pretty much anybody (including medical doctors apparently) can produce working code.
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2020-10-21T09:36:53Z White_Flame: and that is legitimately programming
2020-10-21T09:37:02Z beach: Fair enough.
2020-10-21T09:37:04Z White_Flame: but, SE and CS are enablers beyond that
2020-10-21T09:37:28Z beach: It seems we agree.
2020-10-21T09:43:42Z White_Flame: one of my biggest complaints is that university tracks tend not to teach programming
2020-10-21T09:44:00Z White_Flame: which is one of the 3 slices of the overall skillset of developing software
2020-10-21T09:44:27Z beach: Yes, but then, there are few universities with staff that is qualified to teach it.
2020-10-21T09:44:43Z White_Flame: and as mentioned above, it is very much related to craft
2020-10-21T09:45:18Z beach: Right.  Which in turn is incompatible with the career of a typical university teacher.
2020-10-21T09:45:20Z White_Flame: where SE is more related to process & abstraction, and CS is related to making solid theory
2020-10-21T09:45:34Z White_Flame: (definitely not hard boundaries between any of them though)
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2020-10-21T09:46:59Z beach: I am one of a tiny number of exceptions in that I worked in the software industry, and in that I acquire some experience by actually writing code and reading papers, watching talks, etc., about programming.
2020-10-21T09:47:40Z White_Flame: yeah, that's pretty rare.  And the one prof I had that came from industry didn't know at all how to teach, with is the opposite problem
2020-10-21T09:48:03Z beach: Exactly.  And there we have the essence of the problem.
2020-10-21T09:48:38Z beach: ... plus, of course, people working in industry are not that good developers on the average either.
2020-10-21T09:49:00Z White_Flame: yep
2020-10-21T09:50:08Z White_Flame: bringing back on semi-topic, if CL was much more widely represented in industry, I doubt there would be an air of "CL makes you a better programmer because you abstract more" sort of claims, as all the below-mediocre developers would happen to be working in it as well
2020-10-21T09:50:28Z beach: Sounds right.
2020-10-21T09:50:33Z cl-arthur: I had a big surprise when I took over some code maintenance and found numbered fn versions. Aka (defun some-fn-1 ...) (defun some-fn-2 ...) and only the latter was used anywhere.
2020-10-21T09:51:00Z White_Flame: yep, a refactor without a hard committing to the new version
2020-10-21T09:51:07Z beach: White_Flame: It is a fluke that there is a correlation between Lisp and highly intelligent and highly knowledgeable people.
2020-10-21T09:51:12Z White_Flame: that eventually filtered out all the old usages
2020-10-21T09:51:42Z White_Flame: beach: those with a greater passion for programming will find themselves in some esoteric niches; the average programmers won't
2020-10-21T09:52:51Z beach: I tend to agree with your analysis.
2020-10-21T09:53:03Z beach: Never thought much about the reason myself.
2020-10-21T09:53:29Z White_Flame: and that distinguishes back with the "if CL were more widespread" scenario
2020-10-21T09:53:29Z cl-arthur: White_flame: just reduce the size of the industry at the same time to move the average quality higher :D
2020-10-21T09:53:38Z White_Flame: that isn't incorrect! :)
2020-10-21T09:54:02Z beach: I am in favor of that idea too.
2020-10-21T09:54:08Z White_Flame: just look back to the 80s and prior, it wasn't a common thing to get into
2020-10-21T09:54:37Z White_Flame: financial prospects blew up in the 90s, and the crowds arrived
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2020-10-21T10:37:40Z Xach: if you are an amateur and something bothers you about common lisp. if you are paid only if you use common lisp, anything that bothers you will be a real source of pain.
2020-10-21T10:37:50Z Xach: sorry - if you are an amateur, you can just not use it any more.
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2020-10-21T10:42:35Z phoe: :(
2020-10-21T10:42:37Z phoe: okay
2020-10-21T10:43:31Z Xach: i knew your love for cl was conditional
2020-10-21T10:43:48Z phoe: Xach: ouch2
2020-10-21T10:43:50Z decentyousername: That's not real love!
2020-10-21T10:44:05Z flip214: when SBCL tells me "Don't know how to REQUIRE sb-bsd-sockets." when trying via ASDF, but an interactive REQUIRE works fine, what's the problem?
2020-10-21T10:44:08Z jackdaniel: what were we discussing again?
2020-10-21T10:44:31Z decentyousername: jackdaniel: No idea.
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2020-10-21T10:44:35Z flip214: ain't amateur love the real love? professionals rather get paid for it?
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2020-10-21T10:44:47Z Xach: flip214: i don't know in specific detail, but to me that usually signals some kind of incorrect/incomplete installation
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2020-10-21T10:45:24Z Xach: flip214: what were you trying via asdf? (asdf:load-system "sb-bsd-sockets")?
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2020-10-21T10:46:53Z flip214: Xach: thanks, solved. outdated FASL cache, as slime doesn't use the default location ~/.cache/common-lisp/
2020-10-21T10:47:10Z flip214: grrr no, still happens after cleaning up?!
2020-10-21T10:47:19Z flip214: Xach: the ASD file has a :DEPENDS-ON
2020-10-21T10:48:05Z Xach: flip214: is there anything different about the environment where REQUIRE and loading the system are different?
2020-10-21T10:48:20Z Xach: i mean, do you get the same thing if you start sbcl from the terminal and the only thing you do is require or asdf:load-system?
2020-10-21T10:48:32Z jackdaniel: flip214: what is a result of (asdf:locate-system 'sb-bsd-sockets)
2020-10-21T10:48:36Z flip214: that's what I'm trying to find out... interactive running works, but the image doesn't
2020-10-21T10:49:17Z Xach: image!
2020-10-21T10:49:32Z Xach: this is the first mention of an image
2020-10-21T10:50:24Z flip214: yeah, sorry... in my dev environment I also use an image with lots of things already loaded
2020-10-21T10:50:30Z jackdaniel: you might have dumped an image with asdf that has already cached location of asd files (and that location may be obsolete now)
2020-10-21T10:50:51Z flip214: but I don't understand why sb-bsd-sockets is REQUIREd at that time, it should be included in the image anyway
2020-10-21T10:51:44Z jackdaniel: asdf reloads the system if it changes. if the location of asd changed (or asd disappeared) it will try to reload it
2020-10-21T10:52:19Z flip214: ah, disappearing makes it reload? does that make sense? if it knows it's gone where would it reload from?
2020-10-21T10:52:21Z jackdaniel: since the definition is already registered in the system, asdf won't fall back to calling require (it does that by default when definition is not found)
2020-10-21T10:52:47Z jackdaniel: well, that's precisely the problem you have I think -- you should register the system either as preloaded, or eventually as immutable
2020-10-21T10:52:55Z jackdaniel: then asdf won't attempt doing so
2020-10-21T10:55:32Z flip214: jackdaniel: good idea, trying
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2020-10-21T10:59:59Z flip214: thanks, seems to help
2020-10-21T11:00:24Z jackdaniel: sure
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2020-10-21T11:09:34Z flip214: grr.... in production there's a symptom, locally I get it only if I don't use (load?) swank
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2020-10-21T11:36:11Z Xach: |3b|: where can i find 3b-glim/2d?
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2020-10-21T12:23:46Z decentyousername: How would I list all intered symbols of a specified package?
2020-10-21T12:25:39Z phoe: (loop for symbol being the present-symbols of :alexandria collect symbol)
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2020-10-21T12:26:07Z phoe: present-symbols, or symbols, or external-symbols
2020-10-21T12:26:08Z phoe: you choose
2020-10-21T12:26:26Z decentyousername: thanks, I'll note that down
2020-10-21T12:26:39Z Xach: decentyousername: what prompts the question? what will you do with this ability?
2020-10-21T12:27:11Z decentyousername: Xach: I'm trying to understand a system someone wrote and I wanted to get an overview of all the symbols
2020-10-21T12:27:12Z jackdaniel: I've read "how do I list all internal symbols of a specified package" and it got me curious :)
2020-10-21T12:27:41Z decentyousername: jackdaniel: I guess it didn't help that I've spelled "interned" wrong.
2020-10-21T12:27:47Z phoe: decentyousername: that's not the best idea
2020-10-21T12:27:50Z Xach: decentyousername: ahh. i don't think all interned symbols will necessarily get you there - it might be more helpful to limit it to bound/fbound symbols.
2020-10-21T12:28:15Z Xach: or some other metric that measures meaning in a symbol
2020-10-21T12:28:16Z phoe: you'll get things like local variables and internal function/macro names and what else mixed in there
2020-10-21T12:28:34Z phoe: I'd start with the exports rather than present symbols
2020-10-21T12:29:06Z decentyousername: phoe: It's a little tool written by borodust to parse tiled maps. It only exports 'convert.
2020-10-21T12:29:22Z phoe: then it's a very good library
2020-10-21T12:29:33Z phoe: you don't need to choose where to start trying to understand it
2020-10-21T12:30:03Z decentyousername: I still need to know how to use the function, because there is no documentation.
2020-10-21T12:30:09Z decentyousername: The source code is the documentation.
2020-10-21T12:30:20Z _death: M-. is a programmer's best friend
2020-10-21T12:30:25Z phoe: ooh
2020-10-21T12:30:35Z phoe: well, that's a troublesome thing then
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2020-10-21T12:31:36Z jackdaniel: (do-symbols (var 'climi) (when (eq (nth-value 1 (find-symbol (symbol-name var) 'climi)) :internal) (print var))) ; is what I came up with, quite clumsy
2020-10-21T12:31:54Z jackdaniel: (re /internal/ symbols)
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2020-10-21T12:34:15Z _death: (let ((package (find-package "FOO"))) (remove package (apropos-list "" package) :test-not #'eql :key #'symbol-package)) ;; may be of interest, on some implementations
2020-10-21T12:35:12Z jackdaniel: it does look for all not inherited symbols, doesn't it?
2020-10-21T12:35:28Z decentyousername: it does the same as the prior two examples
2020-10-21T12:35:35Z decentyousername: at least the output is the same
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2020-10-21T12:36:26Z _death: it gives all symbols that are at home with the package
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2020-10-21T12:38:50Z Xach: i sometimes use mpage -4 to print out source code and then just read it through that way, taking notes directly on paper.
2020-10-21T12:39:03Z Xach: not for everyone, and not something i do a ton lately, but it has helped in the past
2020-10-21T12:39:27Z _death: if you import symbols from another package, they may become internal symbols as well
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2020-10-21T12:40:08Z _death: I often use the asdf system dependencies to read a library serially
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2020-10-21T12:41:27Z flip214: Xach: around 1985 my neighbor printed his source code on continuous paper... about 15m (45 ft) or so, and marked the GOTO cross-references with colored pens ;)
2020-10-21T12:42:11Z Xach: flip214: i used to think paper was hopelessly old-fashioned until i tried it. i suppose it only works for projects of a certain size.
2020-10-21T12:42:21Z borodust: decentyousername: load the system, and go down the rabbit hole by going from convert to what it uses jumping around with M-.
2020-10-21T12:42:26Z Xach: 15m seems like it may exceed that size...
2020-10-21T12:42:45Z borodust: decentyousername: one of those days i might make it into a useful library ;p
2020-10-21T12:43:34Z borodust: decentyousername: it was hacked during a jam, there was little time to do anything properly
2020-10-21T12:44:16Z decentyousername: I'm trying to figure out how to specify the files so it works.
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2020-10-21T12:44:33Z decentyousername: I've created new levels, and would like to test them out.
2020-10-21T12:44:52Z decentyousername: I've assumed it takes a .tmx and transforms it into an .sexp file.
2020-10-21T12:46:45Z flip214: Xach: well, you know, it seems that 40x25 character screens held too little of the sources for a good overview...
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2020-10-21T13:36:33Z borodust: decentyousername: i dont actually remember, ill have a look in the evening
2020-10-21T13:36:59Z borodust: decentyousername: you would also need a lib libtiled blob
2020-10-21T13:43:25Z decentyousername: that's what I was missing
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2020-10-21T13:52:47Z fe[nl]ix: no-defun-allowed: I will be adding a RWlock to bordeaux-threads APIv2
2020-10-21T13:53:10Z flip214: fe[nl]ix: a fair one?
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2020-10-21T13:55:56Z |3b|: Xach: 3b-glim/2d will probably eventually be in https://github.com/3b/3b-glim but i don't think it does anything yet. if you are trying to run graph-paper, i think you can just comment it out for now
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2020-10-21T14:03:50Z fe[nl]ix: flip214: maybe, I don't know if that's possible on top of the existent mutexes provided by implementations
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2020-10-21T14:14:47Z flip214: fe[nl]ix: there's a rwlock primitive on pthreads as well: https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/pthread_rwlock_init.html
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2020-10-21T14:22:47Z fe[nl]ix: I know but that's not very relevant because I can only use whatever the implementation exposes
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2020-10-21T14:28:10Z kirtai: hi
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2020-10-21T14:28:22Z phoe: heyyy
2020-10-21T14:28:40Z kirtai: regarding the discussion earlier about editing, how do the Medley structure editors hold up?
2020-10-21T14:29:06Z phoe: hmm, that reminds me of this interlisp-as-free-software project
2020-10-21T14:29:25Z kirtai: yep, that's exactly what I'm referring to
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2020-10-21T14:30:29Z kirtai: it supports both interlisp and (very old) common lisp
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2020-10-21T14:38:15Z beach: I started writing a GUI structure editor in the past, but it quickly became quite messy.  I had a quadratic correspondence between states (cursor positions) and commands.
2020-10-21T14:38:42Z beach: I am sure my initial idea was wrong, but I haven't investigated other possibilities.
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2020-10-21T14:55:30Z kirtai: I'm pretty sure the Medley release has the structure editors in it. I don't know which language they're in though, and unfortunately it still uses CLtL rather than ANSI CL
2020-10-21T14:56:01Z kirtai: might be worth a look sometime though, once the devs have sorted through what they have
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2020-10-21T14:57:16Z phoe: interlisp
2020-10-21T14:57:24Z phoe: e.g. https://github.com/Interlisp/medley/blob/master/lispusers/AUXMENU looks nothing like CL
2020-10-21T14:57:26Z phoe: even cltl1
2020-10-21T14:57:40Z kirtai: there's at least two of them
2020-10-21T14:58:08Z kirtai: sedit and dedit iirc. I know the first is interlisp, it's the second I need to check
2020-10-21T14:58:12Z Xach: |3b|: thanks. when i try (display (make-instance 'graph-paper) t) i get an unhandled memory fault
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2020-10-21T15:01:38Z kirtai: sedit looks like a weird hybrid. CL with lots of calls to the interlisp package
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2020-10-21T15:06:06Z kirtai: check the sedit-* files under sources
2020-10-21T15:07:03Z beach: Structure editing is going to be tough for Common Lisp with the presence of user-defined reader macros.
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2020-10-21T15:09:35Z phoe: you'd need to instruct the editor how it should interpret a given macro
2020-10-21T15:09:46Z phoe: that's kinda doable, if somewhat annoying
2020-10-21T15:10:24Z beach: You then kind of need to write code for the macro twice.  Once for the reader and then another time for the editor.
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2020-10-21T15:10:58Z phoe: yes
2020-10-21T15:11:02Z beach: And if you distribute the code, you need to ship it with the editor customization as well.
2020-10-21T15:11:07Z phoe: yes
2020-10-21T15:11:39Z kirtai: would medleys more image based orientation help? Since it's editing live code and not files directly
2020-10-21T15:12:28Z beach: kirtai: That's a big change in how people work.
2020-10-21T15:12:29Z jackdaniel: what is the "live code" textual representation? i.e the loaded file is (list #p"/foo/"), how do you see that in the editor after loading it?
2020-10-21T15:13:09Z kirtai: beach: true, but it's also core to how medley works
2020-10-21T15:14:07Z kirtai: jackdaniel: medley works more like a smalltalk system. Source is attached to the in memory code and is imported/exported to files
2020-10-21T15:14:36Z beach: kirtai: Yes, but how is the code presented when the programmer wants to edit it?
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2020-10-21T15:17:30Z kirtai: if I understand you correctly, when you call up the code, the way it works is it shows you and lets you edit the in-memory version of the source.
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2020-10-21T15:19:37Z beach: OK, so let's take an example.  Let's say a Common Lisp programmer writes a reader macro, say ι to mimic APL vectors.
2020-10-21T15:20:10Z beach: Normally, the programmer would write ι100 for a vector with number 0 to 99 in it.
2020-10-21T15:20:53Z Nilby: My opinion is structure editors should work on post-read objects. The trouble then is is the aesthetic art of indenting, and so also semantic parsing.
2020-10-21T15:21:07Z beach: Now, the in-core version is just a vector.  Is that going to be presented to the user as a vector of 100 elements, and if so, how does the programmer change it so that it is now the result of (say) ι50 instead.
2020-10-21T15:21:08Z beach: ?
2020-10-21T15:22:16Z beach: Nilby: Sure, but is that really convenient?  Don't you have to stop using reader macros?
2020-10-21T15:22:46Z kirtai: I'm afraid I haven't got far enough into medley to answer that yet :(
2020-10-21T15:22:50Z kirtai: still studying it
2020-10-21T15:23:10Z beach: kirtai: That's fine.  But you see why we are asking these questions, right?
2020-10-21T15:23:16Z Nilby: beach: Reader macros become keyboard input macros.
2020-10-21T15:23:27Z Nilby: beach: and display code
2020-10-21T15:23:38Z beach: Nilby: For input, yes, but what about edit?
2020-10-21T15:24:04Z phoe: I guess you could tag objects with their respective source forms
2020-10-21T15:24:06Z beach: How does the system "know" that this particular vector was the result of typing ι100?
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2020-10-21T15:24:18Z kirtai: phoe: I think that's how it works
2020-10-21T15:24:53Z beach: So then the in-core structure is more than just the code?
2020-10-21T15:25:18Z beach: That could work I guess.
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2020-10-21T15:26:49Z shka_: beach: hey, do you recommend https://github.com/s-expressionists/Concrete-Syntax-Tree/tree/master/Lambda-list for basic lambda list parsing?
2020-10-21T15:27:08Z Nilby: But if I  edit the elements of ι50, it can not really be displayed as ι50 anymore.
2020-10-21T15:27:16Z shka_: all i need to do is get required, optional and key parameters
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2020-10-21T15:27:29Z beach: shka_: It seems to work, but I am not happy with the way the notation ended up.
2020-10-21T15:27:37Z shka_: ok
2020-10-21T15:27:40Z beach: shka_: Then do it manually.
2020-10-21T15:27:43Z beach: It is very easy.
2020-10-21T15:28:01Z jackdaniel: shka_: use alexandria function
2020-10-21T15:28:01Z beach: shka_: That thing was designed to be extensible by client code in arbitrary ways.
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2020-10-21T15:28:09Z shka_: yeah, i imagine
2020-10-21T15:28:12Z jackdaniel: it will give you all results you want
2020-10-21T15:28:27Z shka_: manually it is
2020-10-21T15:28:30Z jackdaniel: (and allows normalizations etc)
2020-10-21T15:28:38Z jackdaniel: shka_: alexandria:parse-ordinary-lambda-list
2020-10-21T15:28:45Z shka_: RIGHT!
2020-10-21T15:28:51Z jackdaniel hates to repeat myself :c
2020-10-21T15:28:52Z shka_: i forgot about this function
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2020-10-21T15:29:15Z shka_: i used this function before but somehow i forgot about it
2020-10-21T15:29:17Z jackdaniel: hm, using /me mandates s/myself/himself/
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2020-10-21T15:29:25Z shka_: thanks for help!
2020-10-21T15:29:28Z jackdaniel: sure
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2020-10-21T15:35:44Z kirtai: I'm poking at medley to see what I can find re macros in code
2020-10-21T15:36:17Z beach: Macros are no problem.  They are represented like everything else.  The main issue is reader macros.
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2020-10-21T15:39:18Z phoe: the way I see it, ι100 is always supposed to evaluate to #(0 1 2 3 ... 99)
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2020-10-21T15:40:28Z phoe: so if we have (defun foo () ι100) then I suppose that the ι100 macro could be handled without much trouble
2020-10-21T15:40:29Z Nilby: I'm sure its obvious, but for example the reader macro for " turns into a keyboard macro which says let the user type a string a push it at the point. The display method (display (obj string) ...) puts quotes around it.
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2020-10-21T15:41:39Z beach: Nilby: Again, the problem is not input.  The problem is output.  How does the system display the code in a way that allows user to edit it in a way that it was originally typed in.
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2020-10-21T15:42:18Z Nilby: If you have a custom reader macro, you have to have custom display code, or you just get #(0 1 ..)
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2020-10-21T15:42:50Z beach: Nilby: Hence the "define the macro twice" conclusion above.
2020-10-21T15:43:11Z phoe: or we remember the whole form as a string and re-read it
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2020-10-21T15:43:33Z jackdaniel: my naive attempt at this would be preserving the textual representation and the underlying object (so reading it basically), when the programmer modifies the textual representation, then that part of the buffer should be re-read
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2020-10-21T15:43:44Z beach: phoe: Yes, and I am now thinking whether that is really what is meant by "structure editing".
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2020-10-21T15:44:20Z beach: jackdaniel: That is *definitely* not structure editing.  And you are describing exactly what I do for Second Climacs.
2020-10-21T15:44:33Z jackdaniel: OK
2020-10-21T15:44:49Z Nilby: beach: That doesn't seem like much of a problem to me, especially given that hopefully non-standard reader macro use infrequent and close to redefining the language, e.g. zeta-c.
2020-10-21T15:45:32Z Nilby: beach: One could have a define-editable-reader-macro
2020-10-21T15:45:34Z beach: Nilby: OK.
2020-10-21T15:45:52Z phoe: beach: I guess that you'd need to add a layer of indirection; if you have (defun foo () ι100) then you have a simple list structure under the hood, but you also could have a layer of indirection that points to that concrete list structure and also holds information about e.g. macro usage
2020-10-21T15:46:12Z phoe: so it can figure out that (make-array 100 :initial-contents '(0 1 2 ... 99)) was actually macroexpanded from ι100
2020-10-21T15:46:46Z phoe: then you'd need editable function objects to refer to this sorta-textual context information so it can be picked up by the structure editor
2020-10-21T15:46:49Z beach: phoe: Something like that would be needed, yes.  Not sure about the implications of it.
2020-10-21T15:47:24Z phoe: I guess there would be none, other than for the fact that if such information is not provided then some reader macros may be expanded
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2020-10-21T15:48:22Z beach: I am kind of wondering now what the original advantages of structure editing were meant to be, and how they would be preserved in such a scenario.
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2020-10-21T15:49:23Z phoe: beach: please note that this is an edge case scenario
2020-10-21T15:49:29Z phoe: reader macros are not *that* common
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2020-10-21T15:50:40Z beach: User-defined ones certainly aren't.
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2020-10-21T15:52:00Z Nilby: I worked on a structre editor and my biggest problem was indendting and line filling, eg. when to + 2 3 vs. + next-line 2 next-line 3
2020-10-21T15:53:42Z beach: Nilby: Do you mean you created/maintained one, or just used it as an end user?
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2020-10-21T15:55:40Z Nilby: My fingers typed it, but my brain as usual has little recollection of the event. It so far hasn't made it out of the laboratory.
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2020-10-21T15:58:27Z beach: Hmm.  OK.
2020-10-21T15:59:22Z Nilby: It needs a lot of framework to be useful as I'm sure you can imagine.
2020-10-21T15:59:50Z beach: Sure.
2020-10-21T15:59:59Z kirtai: only thing I can find is that it does display 'foo for (quote foo)
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2020-10-21T16:03:35Z Nilby: I think I used medley a little bit a long time ago on a TI lispm. it was cool but as an emacs user, the key bindings felt awkward and would take some getting used to, probably like paredit.
2020-10-21T16:04:10Z kirtai: probably on a Xerox lispm, not a TI one
2020-10-21T16:04:25Z Nilby: oh, that might be
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2020-10-21T16:11:44Z kirtai: there's a short manual for sedit in the medley release notes at appendix b in this document: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/interlisp-d/198809_Medley_1.0/400006_Lisp_Release_Notes_Medley_Release_1.0_Sep88.pdf
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2020-10-21T16:16:34Z beach: Interesting.  Thanks!
2020-10-21T16:17:27Z kirtai: chapter 16 has a little bit more on it
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2020-10-21T17:06:48Z tfb: SEdit was ... well, if you haven't used SEdit it's hard to describe what it was like, but it was astonishing, or at least I remember it being so.
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2020-10-21T18:08:09Z phoe: Xach: regarding print-hash-table-readably, that's actually my code
2020-10-21T18:08:27Z phoe: so, if it's broken, I'll be happy to fix it
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2020-10-21T18:14:31Z Xach: phoe: the unconditional symbol case is concerning
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2020-10-21T18:20:36Z Xach: As I wrote, I'm happy to add anything and (perceived by me) quality is not a roadblock. But I do look at personal utility libraries a little harder than other stuff and would love to see if the authors are open to feedback and possible improvement.
2020-10-21T18:21:12Z shka_: *gulp*
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2020-10-21T18:30:49Z phoe: Xach: oh! OK, I can take care of that
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2020-10-21T18:36:17Z shka_: Xach: btw, can you take a look and say if it displays fine? https://sirherrbatka.github.io/cl-data-structures/l_1.html#812753871995231275
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2020-10-21T20:14:09Z dlowe: is there a library or implementation feature that allows for asserting that only one reference is held to a particular object?
2020-10-21T20:15:25Z Xach: shka_: i would like to say but you are gone now!
2020-10-21T20:16:07Z Bike: dlowe: kind of hard to define, or to know that it's true given everything that happens under the hood
2020-10-21T20:16:28Z Bike: for example, if you write a defmethod, machinery is gonna keep the original arguments around for (call-next-method)
2020-10-21T20:16:29Z dlowe: Bike: correct!
2020-10-21T20:16:43Z Bike: c.f. the weird convoluted description of dynamic-extent in the CLHS
2020-10-21T20:17:09Z dlowe: all the more reason to have such a thing while tracking down memory leaks
2020-10-21T20:17:31Z dlowe: if it's hard for a function, it's even harder for the poor human trying to figure it out
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2020-10-21T20:21:03Z dlowe: my other thought was a really-should-be-garbage mark that could be put on an object
2020-10-21T20:21:46Z phoe: dlowe: sb-ext:search-roots
2020-10-21T20:21:47Z dlowe: so a gc in its reaping or copying phase comes across something that really-should-be-garbage but isn't, it can signal an error or comething
2020-10-21T20:22:46Z dlowe: phoe: that works as long as I make a weak-pointer for it, I guess.
2020-10-21T20:23:26Z phoe: yes
2020-10-21T20:23:33Z dlowe: looks good for debugging, at least. Thanks!
2020-10-21T20:23:42Z phoe: I wonder if it can be used to find all references, or their count, though...
2020-10-21T20:24:09Z dlowe: both, looks like
2020-10-21T20:27:43Z phoe: I don't know if I can use this tool properly though and if it does what I think it does
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2020-10-21T20:56:38Z mseddon: dlowe, I appreciate your pain, and thanks for both your and phoe's insight into observing this
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2020-10-21T20:58:40Z dlowe: I might see if I can hack a please-be-garbage flag into sbcl
2020-10-21T20:59:19Z mseddon: Please do report back how complete it's coverage is. It's at least conservatively great.
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2020-10-21T21:00:33Z _death: dunno if it could signal, but maybe it could log to the gc logfile
2020-10-21T21:01:46Z dlowe: mseddon: I would have to manually add (garbagify <object>) calls everywhere to figure out coverage
2020-10-21T21:02:16Z dlowe: I'd prefer to have the option to do this just for large leaks
2020-10-21T21:03:39Z phoe: dlowe: this makes stuff memory-unsafe though
2020-10-21T21:03:54Z dlowe: no, because it doesn't free anything
2020-10-21T21:04:04Z phoe: oh, like that
2020-10-21T21:04:08Z dlowe: nothing will happen if you access please-be-garbage objects
2020-10-21T21:04:23Z phoe: but won't the GC be free to collect them if they are garbage?
2020-10-21T21:04:46Z dlowe: it's a flag that says to the gc that the object shouldn't have a mark
2020-10-21T21:05:07Z dlowe: that it *should* be garbage, and it's an error if it isn't
2020-10-21T21:05:39Z phoe: an error, what do you mean? that you want to signal an error if a given object is alive?
2020-10-21T21:05:40Z dlowe: the gc can then signal a continuable error
2020-10-21T21:06:10Z phoe: hm
2020-10-21T21:06:40Z phoe: a minor issue is that the SBCL GC runs in the C world, you'll need to jump back to Lisp... which will be troublesome because the world is stopped during GC
2020-10-21T21:07:09Z phoe: but I guess that's doable
2020-10-21T21:07:22Z dlowe: ugly if all the threads are paused though
2020-10-21T21:07:35Z dlowe: but this would be a debugging thing anyway
2020-10-21T21:07:52Z phoe: why does search-roots not work for your use case though?
2020-10-21T21:08:04Z dlowe: thinking about active and passive modes of debugging
2020-10-21T21:08:15Z _death: if it's just for debugging, you could simply map-allocated-objects and test for it
2020-10-21T21:08:19Z dlowe: utilizing the fact that gc is already searching roots
2020-10-21T21:10:49Z _death: or list-allocated-objects (which I recently found out about)
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2020-10-22T02:37:57Z dbotton: is there a way to mark a local variable as a constant?
2020-10-22T02:39:40Z dbotton: so that  (let ((x 1)) (setq x 10)) would produce an error?
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2020-10-22T02:41:31Z Alfr_: dbotton, even (defconstant foo 12) (setf foo 13) doesn't need to trigger an error. It's only undefined behavior.
2020-10-22T02:41:51Z aeth: afaik, not portably, but if there was a way it would be through DECLARE
2020-10-22T02:42:33Z aeth: implementations are afaik permitted to add a (declare (whatever foo)) if they wanted to
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2020-10-22T02:43:49Z dbotton: interesting
2020-10-22T02:45:26Z dbotton: is there a sort of semi standard set of declare that works in most compilers?
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2020-10-22T02:48:00Z dbotton: is there a reason why the standard felt the need for a deconstant but not on a local basis?
2020-10-22T02:48:11Z aeth: I don't think there's a way, but (declare) is valid so if you had to do (let ((x 1)) (declare #+your-cl (immutable x)) (setq x 10)) you could still write perfectly portable code here.
2020-10-22T02:49:22Z aeth: (and I think they're supposed to ignore unrecognized forms inside of DECLARE, so I think but am not sure, that that would just be a warning if you didn't do that)
2020-10-22T02:49:55Z dbotton: warning still offers some robustness
2020-10-22T02:50:39Z aeth: No, I mean, e.g. SBCL will warn on an unrecognized DECLARE.
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2020-10-22T02:50:50Z dbotton: oh :(
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2020-10-22T02:51:20Z aeth: this definitely could work, though. (let ((x 42)) (declare #+whatever (whatever x)) x)
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2020-10-22T02:51:27Z Alfr_: Only after a (declaration whatever), I think, aeth.
2020-10-22T02:51:51Z aeth: Anyway, that's probably my guess as to why it's not in the standard. Because they probably anticipated that they didn't create an exhaustive list of useful declarations
2020-10-22T02:52:32Z dbotton: the immutable specifier or why open ended?
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2020-10-22T02:59:09Z aeth: dbotton: Sorry, what I mean is I don't think there was a particular need to include this in the standard since it gave implementations the power to add it, and they probably weren't really thinkinng about this sort of thing 30 years ago.
2020-10-22T03:00:16Z aeth: dbotton: You could also, yourself, create a macro that does this without even code-walking, since DEFCONSTANT exists. Just symbol-macrolet
2020-10-22T03:00:27Z aeth: e.g. (defconstant +foo+ 42) (symbol-macrolet ((foo +foo+)) (setf foo 43)) ; error
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2020-10-22T03:02:11Z aeth: dbotton: So I guess there is a way to mark a variable as a constant if you're willing to have a hidden DEFCONSTANT variable
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2020-10-22T03:05:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-10-22T03:06:10Z dbotton: thanks aeth
2020-10-22T03:08:10Z dbotton: aeth would that create an error at compile time or runtime?
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2020-10-22T03:10:20Z aeth: dbotton: probably depends on the implementation because it says it's undefined in the spec, but it's an error in SBCL. e.g. (defconstant +foo+ 42) (defun foobar () (symbol-macrolet ((foo +foo+)) (setf foo 43)))
2020-10-22T03:10:33Z aeth: (I turned it into a function so it's not being called directly.)
2020-10-22T03:11:15Z beach: dbotton: Did you try to declare the type to (eql 42)?
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2020-10-22T03:12:01Z Bike: http://ix.io/2Bzn you can do such horrible things with macros
2020-10-22T03:14:05Z dbotton: beach I apologize I don't understand your question
2020-10-22T03:14:21Z beach: Did you try: (let ((x 42)) (declare (type (eql 42) x)) x)
2020-10-22T03:14:57Z beach: I guess maybe that doesn't solve your problem.
2020-10-22T03:15:02Z beach: Forget what I said.
2020-10-22T03:15:29Z aeth: it solves the specific problem, but not the general problem, so maybe it's good enough depending on the task
2020-10-22T03:16:51Z aeth: (it'll work for chars/numbers/symbols)
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2020-10-22T03:20:23Z aeth: dbotton: Sorry, I realize I didn't directly answer your question. It's a compile time error because it's an error when I DEFUN, which won't call the code directly
2020-10-22T03:21:29Z dbotton: thanks
2020-10-22T03:22:31Z aeth: (but not portably, since DEFCONSTANT doesn't have to error)
2020-10-22T03:23:11Z aeth: (but any reasonable implementation should error there)
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2020-10-22T03:25:23Z dbotton: I imagine having a (declare immutable x) should have some value for optimizations
2020-10-22T03:26:09Z dbotton: sorry I imagine that should be (define (immutable x))
2020-10-22T03:26:10Z Bike: not really. the compiler can just determine if a variable is immutable by looking at how many places it's assigned.
2020-10-22T03:26:29Z beach was beaten to it by Bike.
2020-10-22T03:27:16Z dbotton: so we need a human discipline macro
2020-10-22T03:27:50Z dbotton: something like tools I have used for insuring style guides
2020-10-22T03:27:51Z aeth: the symbol-macrolet to a defconstant should produce the same code in an optimizing compiler (SBCL at the very least)
2020-10-22T03:28:02Z aeth: it'll just prevent the programmer from messing up and adding a SETF
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2020-10-22T03:28:42Z aeth: If you want more, you'd want an immutable type so it can be optimized outside of a function's scope, too.
2020-10-22T03:30:10Z dbotton: then could use the declare type
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2020-10-22T03:38:10Z dbotton: I have not yes started on clos, so sorry if this is ignorant, would it be possible to extend a built in type and then declare type it on the new type?
2020-10-22T03:39:36Z aeth: The thing itself always has a type, and the binding can have a type if DECLAREd (technically, it always has it, but it's normally T).
2020-10-22T03:40:28Z aeth: So the type declaration doesn't have an impact on the object itself, except that it might error if it mismatches (and it might not... only CHECK-TYPE guarantees the type error)
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2020-10-22T03:42:54Z dbotton: I realize this is probably the wrong though process to start with for Lisp, ie trying to type the variable not the data
2020-10-22T03:43:03Z aeth: For the other part of your question, afaik, you normally can't extend built-in types, but sometimes you can, such as trivial-gray-streams or trivial-extensible-sequences
2020-10-22T03:43:43Z beach: dbotton: I think you are right.  It is common for people coming from other languages to overuse type declarations.
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2020-10-22T03:44:12Z aeth: Generally, type declarations should only matter if for arrays/vectors, numbers, and arrays/vectors of numbers
2020-10-22T03:44:36Z aeth: At least as far as performance is concerned. Otherwise, the added checks might actually deoptimize the code.
2020-10-22T03:44:57Z dbotton: you mean to constrain to subsets?
2020-10-22T03:45:15Z beach: dbotton: I read somewhere that languages with manifest typing force the programmer to come up with types that may not be true later on in the development process.
2020-10-22T03:46:20Z dbotton: In years of dev I have not found that to be the case
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2020-10-22T03:47:17Z dbotton: at least in Ada where the "type" is the central abstraction
2020-10-22T03:48:10Z beach: Oh, you are the Ada person.  I remember now.
2020-10-22T03:48:50Z dbotton: My interests are in compile time computing :)
2020-10-22T03:49:06Z aeth: well, that's kind of boring in CL because you can just EVAL-WHEN
2020-10-22T03:49:46Z beach: dbotton: yes, you came to the right place since you can do arbitrary computations at compile time.
2020-10-22T03:50:07Z aeth: You can force someone to win a (complete, graphical) game before the code compiles if you want to. Just put a call to launch the game in an EVAL-WHEN.
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2020-10-22T03:50:59Z dbotton: In Ada it is all about using the Type to insure correctness of code, a form of compile time computing that has worked very well for me
2020-10-22T03:52:01Z dbotton: I think once I have fully groked the CL approach will open something open in the avenue more
2020-10-22T03:52:10Z beach: dbotton: I am curious, then, as to why you want to use Common Lisp, and why you are trying to do the same things with Common Lisp that you have been so successful with using Ada.
2020-10-22T03:52:14Z dbotton: open -> up
2020-10-22T03:53:34Z dbotton: I have a lot of experience with C/C++ other languages as well, the Ada approach worked well, but realized I never actually learned lisp all these years
2020-10-22T03:53:50Z dbotton: not even sure why
2020-10-22T03:54:18Z dbotton: So started that direction and saw the compile time angle
2020-10-22T03:54:26Z beach: dbotton: Then I seriously suggest you try to use it as it is normally used, rather than trying to emulate the Ada programming style with it.
2020-10-22T03:54:30Z dbotton: Something more expressing perhaps
2020-10-22T03:54:37Z dbotton: for sure
2020-10-22T03:54:40Z beach: The languages are fundamentally different.
2020-10-22T03:55:14Z dbotton: As I am do thing just ideas that come up to explore for future
2020-10-22T03:56:53Z dbotton: few other reasons interested me in lisp, age of standard, number of implementations available, quality of tool sets etc
2020-10-22T03:57:16Z aeth: dbotton: imo, there's a bit of a tension in Common Lisp between interactive development and compile time computation... both are more of a priority in CL than in most languages.
2020-10-22T03:57:33Z aeth: Interactive development means you can redefine things and you want to be able to have fast compilation times.
2020-10-22T03:58:03Z dbotton: I certainly see the benefits of both
2020-10-22T03:58:44Z dbotton: My approach for my personal projects has been a very lisp like one even the Ada very ridged
2020-10-22T03:58:57Z dbotton: grown from the ground up
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2020-10-22T03:59:35Z dbotton: But being forced in to the type model has also improved the quality of the results I think
2020-10-22T04:00:19Z dbotton: so I am hoping to see what I can come up with
2020-10-22T04:00:45Z dbotton: The other pluses I mentioned means whatever I do come up with has a long future
2020-10-22T04:00:47Z no-defun-allowed: A dynamic approach might be better if, by the time you would come up with a model to show correctness with, it wouldn't reflect on your current requirements. And there aren't any type systems that I know of that will let you migrate state from one model to another like in Common Lisp.
2020-10-22T04:01:37Z dbotton: no-defun-allowed that is exactly when I am looking to embrace
2020-10-22T04:04:42Z dbotton: beach, the other reason for the switch is Ada is now for all intensive purposes a one vendor product and they have more or less specialized in one niche
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2020-10-22T04:05:36Z dbotton: so many of my personal projects are ideas on dev tools, techniques etc
2020-10-22T04:06:05Z dbotton: seems like all the pieces are hear
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2020-10-22T04:06:56Z dbotton: enjoying the trip so far very much
2020-10-22T04:10:07Z dbotton: These days I make my living for the most part outside the computer world so I can "afford" to invest in something more then job easy languages also
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2020-10-22T04:10:28Z no-defun-allowed: In my probably significantly shorter experience with Lisp, the SBCL compiler catches type errors (on functions involving inbuilt types), or I can provoke them by poking at them with a REPL in about a minute.
2020-10-22T04:10:54Z no-defun-allowed: Though I heard Ada also has some more in terms of formal verification tools than other static languages.
2020-10-22T04:12:52Z beach: dbotton: For compile-time computations, I recommend the book "On Lisp" by Paul Graham.
2020-10-22T04:13:07Z dbotton: going through it already :)
2020-10-22T04:13:10Z aeth: There's no reason why there couldn't be a CL with even more static verification than SBCL
2020-10-22T04:13:31Z dbotton: I think so to aeth
2020-10-22T04:13:33Z aeth: It's tricky because things can be redefined, but not impossible
2020-10-22T04:13:41Z dbotton: and something I may like to do even
2020-10-22T04:14:07Z beach: I am all for static verification, but not so much for manifest typing.
2020-10-22T04:14:16Z dbotton: for sure
2020-10-22T04:14:44Z dbotton: only worth it if not annoying while trying to develop from ground up
2020-10-22T04:15:00Z dbotton: I really wish I had taken a look at cl years ago
2020-10-22T04:15:14Z beach: You are not alone.
2020-10-22T04:15:37Z beach: People tend to spend a lot of time and energy to avoid using Common Lisp.
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2020-10-22T04:17:41Z dbotton: It is the problem of having to many choices
2020-10-22T04:17:48Z dbotton: mean Lisp itself
2020-10-22T04:18:11Z dbotton: People are not comfortable with too many ways to reach same conclusion
2020-10-22T04:18:24Z dbotton: that level of creativity is scary
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2020-10-22T04:18:53Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, also note that if I find an error like that, the thread that signaled an error pauses and I'm presented with a backtrace and some restarts, which usually suffice to test a solution without stopping the program. That is mostly non-present in most dynamically typed languages (I hesitate to call them "dynamic languages"), which makes them the "worst of both worlds", as they are apparently unsuitable for static
2020-10-22T04:18:54Z no-defun-allowed: analysis, and aren't modifiable at runtime.
2020-10-22T04:19:49Z dbotton: exactly reason I never found a one worth it and used them all
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2020-10-22T04:25:26Z dbotton: So to sum up, interests are the general approach to development is like what I have used for years, the tools are there, the quality of tools is there, the quality of community supporting the tools is there, the language is ideal for my current interests in general ie compile time computing, and believe Lisp a good long term host for my creative
2020-10-22T04:25:26Z dbotton: ideas
2020-10-22T04:26:18Z dbotton: the only negative, and probably singe reason never looked in to it, the readability of it
2020-10-22T04:26:54Z dbotton: I stumbled on Ada because felt that recording my ideas in a human readable language a good idea
2020-10-22T04:27:25Z no-defun-allowed: I never found precedence rules particularly friendly, but it's open for debate if I'm a "human".
2020-10-22T04:27:26Z dbotton: and it is the most readable of any language with a good modern toolset and at the time looked promising
2020-10-22T04:28:10Z dbotton: agreed I always () anything that precedence is an issue for that reason
2020-10-22T04:28:19Z dbotton: better ugly and correct
2020-10-22T04:29:40Z dbotton: thank you all though for the direction and knowledge, still have much more to go before can similarly contribute
2020-10-22T04:30:01Z no-defun-allowed: Like, in mathematics classes I'd have written out long equations that weren't in a nice form, and couldn't parse it later. Then everyone else tells me that parenthesised prefix notation is harder.
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2020-10-22T04:33:48Z dbotton: just went through the sbcl manual, didn't see anything there that would help
2020-10-22T04:35:10Z dbotton: maybe in someday will try adding it
2020-10-22T04:35:21Z moon-child: dbotton: have you seen https://github.com/stylewarning/coalton?
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2020-10-22T04:39:09Z dbotton: thanks, I will try and look at more tomorrow
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2020-10-22T05:40:40Z dbotton_: interesting p17 of lisp 1.5 manual has discussion of making constants. I assume technique wouldn't work with current implementations
2020-10-22T05:41:31Z dbotton_: that doesn't solve compile time but would make a real constant
2020-10-22T05:44:36Z dbotton_: (I know 1.5 not CL but for me need to understand the why's and that comes from history)
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2020-10-22T10:30:11Z jmercouris: hello everyone, short article we wrote about how we implemented hooks: https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/article/hooks-implementation.org and how we merged them into serapeum
2020-10-22T10:48:33Z scymtym: article: "During the development of Nyxt we quickly felt dissatisfied with our initial hook implementation (based on Emacs)." second sentence of the linked issue regarding merging into serapeum: "In Next we use https://github.com/scymtym/architecture.hooks"
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2020-10-22T10:54:33Z jmercouris: well, we used to use
2020-10-22T10:54:51Z jmercouris: we now use our own hooks that we built on top of/into serapeum
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2020-10-22T10:57:26Z scymtym: i understand, i'm pointing out an inaccuracy with respect to previous work
2020-10-22T10:57:40Z jmercouris: I see
2020-10-22T10:57:53Z jmercouris: so you think we should say that they were based on cl-hooks rather than Emacs?
2020-10-22T10:58:16Z scymtym: you decide
2020-10-22T10:58:24Z jmercouris: I'll edit the article to include references to both
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2020-10-22T10:58:43Z phoe: I understood it more like "we first used a custom emacslike implementation, then used scymtym's hooks, and now we use this current implementation from serapeum"
2020-10-22T10:58:52Z jmercouris: the concept was Emacs, and then we picked cl-hooks, but you make a good point
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2020-10-22T11:00:08Z jmercouris: I've now changed the sentence to:
2020-10-22T11:00:15Z jmercouris: During the development of Nyxt we quickly felt dissatisfied with our
2020-10-22T11:00:16Z jmercouris: initial hook implementation (based on Emacs, built with cl-hooks
2020-10-22T11:00:16Z jmercouris: (https://github.com/scymtym/architecture.hooks)).
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2020-10-22T11:00:21Z jmercouris: WHY did it insert newlines...
2020-10-22T11:00:44Z jmercouris: what do you think, a good revision?
2020-10-22T11:02:00Z phoe: seems somewhat cleaner to me now
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2020-10-22T11:02:46Z scymtym: phoe: i understood it that way as well, because i was involved and already knew, but i don't think you could get that from the previous version of the article. making the influences clear seems important since, for example, scymtym/architecture.hooks was modeled after generic functions and to some extent Boost.Signals rather than what Emacs does
2020-10-22T11:03:46Z jmercouris: thank you for your feedback scymtym
2020-10-22T11:04:26Z scymtym: jmercouris: sure (i currently get a 502 for the URL, so i couldn't look at the revised version)
2020-10-22T11:04:35Z jmercouris: press refresh, I just updated the article
2020-10-22T11:04:43Z jmercouris: it should work now
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2020-10-22T11:05:25Z phoe: seems to work for me now
2020-10-22T11:05:28Z scymtym: yes, works now
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2020-10-22T11:47:20Z beach: jmercouris: There is no such thing as "a lambda" in Common Lisp.  Maybe there is in Emacs Lisp, but not in Common Lisp.
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2020-10-22T12:15:17Z jmercouris: OK, I think we all know I mean anonymous function
2020-10-22T12:15:25Z jmercouris: I'm not about to confuse my readers :-D
2020-10-22T12:15:35Z beach: It is always preferable to use the right terminology.
2020-10-22T12:16:11Z jmercouris: ideally, yes, maybe I'll put a note about it
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2020-10-22T12:23:52Z beach: So the target group for this text consists of people who don't know Common Lisp?
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2020-10-22T12:37:10Z jmercouris: yes, because I want to get more people interested in Common Lisp
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2020-10-22T12:57:08Z beach: You are not doing them a favor by introducing incorrect terminology.
2020-10-22T12:59:02Z beach: It would then be better to use the correct terminology, and add notes about names of similar constructs in other languages.
2020-10-22T12:59:33Z phoe: Would anyone be interested in reviewing my first/newest book, "The Common Lisp Condition System", on Amazon? The deal is that Apress can offer free ebook versions of the book to some people, and they would like to get a review posted on Amazon in return.
2020-10-22T12:59:52Z phoe: (If yes, please query me - let's not spam #lisp with that too much.)
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2020-10-22T13:03:16Z drmeister: How worried should I be about reproducibility of random number sequences generated using (random <x> <random-state>) where I load <random-state> from a saved <random-state>?
2020-10-22T13:03:54Z drmeister: It's arithmetic right?  Completely deterministic.   I should be able to reload a random-state 10 years from now and generate the same sequence if the random number generator algorithm hasn't changed.
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2020-10-22T13:04:13Z phoe: yes, it should be that way
2020-10-22T13:04:16Z phoe: clhs make-random-state
2020-10-22T13:04:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_rnd.htm
2020-10-22T13:04:23Z phoe: Notes: One important use of make-random-state is to allow the same series of pseudo-random numbers to be generated many times within a single program.
2020-10-22T13:04:59Z phoe: clhs random-state
2020-10-22T13:04:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_rnd_st.htm
2020-10-22T13:05:04Z phoe: "A random state object contains state information used by the pseudo-random number generator."
2020-10-22T13:05:30Z drmeister: It still makes me anxious.
2020-10-22T13:05:31Z phoe: so, yes, if the algorithm has not changed then knowing the random state is enough to reconstruct the PRNG state
2020-10-22T13:05:52Z drmeister: Will one still be one and zero still be zero in the future?
2020-10-22T13:05:52Z Xach: drmeister: you could always use your own algorithm if you want full predictability
2020-10-22T13:05:54Z phoe: and therefore reconstruct the future generated numbers
2020-10-22T13:06:06Z Xach: drmeister: there are a few readily available
2020-10-22T13:06:24Z Xach: by "your own" i don't mean write your own, i mean use a RNG library that someone else wrote, and that you can fully understand and control
2020-10-22T13:06:31Z phoe: but then you need to assume that your lisp implementation that'll exist in 10 years from now will have no changes to its algorithm
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2020-10-22T13:06:43Z phoe: so Xach's solution might be slightly better
2020-10-22T13:06:49Z Xach: and that you can use into the future if the implementation changes
2020-10-22T13:06:56Z phoe: ^
2020-10-22T13:07:24Z Xach: there's the mt19937 library for example
2020-10-22T13:07:49Z drmeister: Since I control the lisp implementation I could make sure the algorithm doesn't change.  We are using the boost::random library.
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2020-10-22T13:08:43Z drmeister: Xach: We are using std::mt19937 - huh.
2020-10-22T13:08:51Z drmeister: And that is a standard algorithm - is it?
2020-10-22T13:08:54Z drmeister: Googling it.
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2020-10-22T13:09:01Z Xach: mersenne twister
2020-10-22T13:09:14Z Xach: algorithms with catchy names become more popular
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2020-10-22T13:09:35Z drmeister: So no - we aren't using boost::random anymore - it's standard C++ now.
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2020-10-22T13:11:34Z Xach: drmeister: maybe that's enough, then
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2020-10-22T13:12:53Z Bike: really, the boost library was just incorporated into the C++ standard
2020-10-22T13:13:06Z _death: often there's benefit from using your own.. for example I recently switched to using a xoshiro implementation in a program that resulted in a significant speedup, and it also solved the issue of initializing the random state to a particular one throughout runs (can usually be done, nonportably)
2020-10-22T13:13:06Z drmeister: Using the mersenne twister means I'll get the same random number sequence on whatever it runs on - right?   Say we move Cando to ARM - the same saved random-state will get me the same sequence of pseudo random numbers. Correct?
2020-10-22T13:13:13Z Bike: yeah
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2020-10-22T13:13:29Z Bike: it doesn't incorporate hardware randomness or anything if that's what you're thinking
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2020-10-22T13:13:51Z drmeister: Ok.
2020-10-22T13:14:19Z Bike: a PRNG is basically deterministic. it's just an algorithm that outputs a sequence of integers based on an input state
2020-10-22T13:14:42Z drmeister: I added the ability to readably print and read random-state yesterday (it was an oversight for a long time).
2020-10-22T13:14:43Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/gFUFBUCh/
2020-10-22T13:15:36Z drmeister: My brain knows that - my heart is anxious.
2020-10-22T13:15:38Z phoe: why the \"?
2020-10-22T13:15:48Z phoe: oh wait
2020-10-22T13:15:49Z phoe: I see now
2020-10-22T13:15:50Z Nilby: This is one of the reasone people make secure enclavess with their own chip. Maybe the best thing to do is test that your same random code & state produces the same results.
2020-10-22T13:16:43Z _death: drmeister: for fun, here's a way to reconstruct mt19937 state from 624 consecutive outputs: https://gist.github.com/death/9c11ffb8594e91dfbe7b6e9baf0cbc31
2020-10-22T13:17:25Z drmeister: I want to use a random-state as the seed for generating molecular sequences that will be difficult to impossible to reverse engineer.
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2020-10-22T13:18:36Z drmeister: I will write out the sequences - but they will be generated from the random number generator - if they became inconsistent - there would be trouble.
2020-10-22T13:19:31Z drmeister: _death: That is interesting - I was wondering about that yesterday. Thank you.
2020-10-22T13:20:23Z drmeister: I don't have 624 consecutive outputs at this point - I have around 360 and they are each modulo some value.
2020-10-22T13:20:52Z drmeister: I'm kind of starting over however - so I'll keep all of this in mind.
2020-10-22T13:23:31Z dbotton: phoe I would love to review it :)
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2020-10-22T15:18:23Z astronavt: are there any good lisp blogs to follow or places to follow updates in the lisp community, e.g. new library releases and such?
2020-10-22T15:18:32Z astronavt: (other than here of course)
2020-10-22T15:19:11Z phoe: astronavt: planet lisp
2020-10-22T15:19:17Z astronavt: thanks
2020-10-22T15:19:26Z phoe: it's an aggregator of lisp feeds
2020-10-22T15:19:31Z phoe: so it has stuff from a lot of places
2020-10-22T15:20:34Z astronavt: i see, very nice
2020-10-22T15:26:09Z Xach: I need to find some new blogs also
2020-10-22T15:26:22Z Xach: Not so many people are blogging about using common lisp these days
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2020-10-22T15:27:28Z astronavt: its a shame. i can see why people dont want to use it nowadays, but its such a cool language id hate to see it fall too far into obscurity
2020-10-22T15:28:33Z astronavt: if anything the dependence on SLIME is too much of an obstacle. if you had good vscode/atom support for it i bet people would start using it more
2020-10-22T15:28:51Z astronavt: (personally i cant stand emacs and i do my entry-level lisp coding in vim)
2020-10-22T15:29:07Z saganman: wow
2020-10-22T15:29:27Z saganman: I love emacs
2020-10-22T15:29:43Z phoe: yes, there's a tooling issue, and I wish there was a proper swank client for vscode
2020-10-22T15:30:00Z phoe: atom and sublime text seem to get slime clients of their own, though, and I can see they have some development ongoing
2020-10-22T15:35:45Z beach: astronavt: Plenty of people want to use Common Lisp these days.
2020-10-22T15:39:09Z drmeister: Yeah - and some of us who use it a lot are more doers than talkers.
2020-10-22T15:39:23Z beach: astronavt: But I seriously don't think that the lack of vscode/atom support would attract more people.
2020-10-22T15:39:46Z drmeister: That's not to denigrate talkers - I'm all fine with them.
2020-10-22T15:40:03Z Xach: beach: I disagree (with what I assume you meant)
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2020-10-22T15:40:12Z _death: planet lisp is blue and there's too much left to do
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2020-10-22T15:41:30Z phoe: I think that good vscode/atom/sublime support for Lisp (by good I mean comparable with slime/sly) would be a really big boon to its popularity nowadays
2020-10-22T15:41:33Z Xach: I think it's good to get rid of meaningless difficulties so you can get on to meaningful difficulties
2020-10-22T15:41:34Z beach: astronavt:  Every so often, someone shows up here with a miracle solution to making more people use Common Lisp, and what they then tell us is their own personal little problem they have with Common Lisp.  But that does not mean that many others avoided Common Lisp for that reason, and certainly not that fixing the problem would attract more people.
2020-10-22T15:42:27Z beach: But I will shut up now, because I can see that my take on this is not shared by others.
2020-10-22T15:42:30Z Xach: "lisp does not work with my favorite editor" is a meaningless difficulty. better to get past that to something more meaningful.
2020-10-22T15:42:39Z phoe: poor/inaccessible tooling, IMO, is a problem that would attract more people
2020-10-22T15:42:49Z phoe: it doesn't mean that you need to shut up though
2020-10-22T15:43:10Z Xach: that is just an excuse to spend time with his admittedly small family
2020-10-22T15:43:52Z Xach: "it is hard to get and install libraries" is a meaningless difficulty, "there aren't any libraries that do what i need" is a meaningful one
2020-10-22T15:45:54Z astronavt: to be clear, i hardly claimed it was a miracle solution
2020-10-22T15:46:14Z astronavt: i said it was a shame that more people didnt use it and suggested one thing that could help based on my own personal experience & talking to others
2020-10-22T15:46:39Z Xach: astronavt: i think that's fairly straightforward and not too controversial.
2020-10-22T15:46:51Z astronavt: i would hope so, i didnt intend to be controversial
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2020-10-22T15:47:27Z Xach: we get more than our fair share of people who have a plan like "if the standard functions were all generic lisp would be more popular" or "if the standard function names were all more logical lisp would be more popular" or "if you made stuff immutable and ran it on the jvm with incompatible syntax lisp would be more popular"
2020-10-22T15:47:32Z Xach: only the last one is provably true
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2020-10-22T15:48:04Z _death: if only Lisp had J or X in its name...
2020-10-22T15:48:09Z Xach: that is tongue in cheek - that's not necessarily the cause of the popularity
2020-10-22T15:48:49Z astronavt: fair enough
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2020-10-22T15:50:05Z astronavt: the stdlib is definitely unusual compared to modern languages. but i dont think that is what turns people off. im sure most people here see the hyperspec as full of features, not cruft
2020-10-22T15:50:19Z astronavt: if anything that is part of what makes CL interesting and gives it characters
2020-10-22T15:50:23Z astronavt: character*
2020-10-22T15:51:25Z cl-arthur: "Modern languages"
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2020-10-22T15:54:53Z astronavt: cl-arthur, well... newer
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2020-10-22T15:55:59Z dbotton: beach I agree with you. Using a language means either job or become an enthusiast. Becoming an enthusiast means appreciating the language
2020-10-22T15:56:19Z dbotton: that comes with education
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2020-10-22T15:59:06Z dbotton: lisp has a high bar. not sure that is a bad thing though
2020-10-22T16:02:27Z jmercouris: am I correct in thinking that local-time does not have a way to parse +rfc-1123-format+?
2020-10-22T16:02:31Z jmercouris: it seems you can only format out to that
2020-10-22T16:02:39Z cl-arthur: astronavt: most programming languages are stuck in the 60s anyway, according to Alan Kay :D
2020-10-22T16:02:49Z cl-arthur: most programming*
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2020-10-22T16:07:43Z |3b|: Xach: try (graph-paper::graph-paper)
2020-10-22T16:07:47Z jmercouris: (local-time:parse-timestring "Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:06:44 -0500") -> :'(
2020-10-22T16:08:23Z jmercouris: cl-date-time-parser it is...
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2020-10-22T16:12:11Z jmercouris: how to make slime prompt for slime-lisp-select by default?
2020-10-22T16:14:49Z Xach: |3b|: thanks. it crashed on me. possibly a futile attempt on my mac laptop? don't want to bother you more about it, it looked fun to try.
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2020-10-22T16:18:04Z |3b|: hmm, any stack trace?
2020-10-22T16:18:52Z |3b|: and also, does (cl-glut-examples:render-to-texture) from cl-glut-examples work?
2020-10-22T16:20:29Z Xach: |3b|: 2020-10-22 12:20:11.839 sbcl[22877:2109368] GLUT Fatal Error: internal error: NSInternalInconsistencyException, reason: NSWindow drag regions should only be invalidated on the Main Thread!
2020-10-22T16:20:33Z Xach: then sbcl dies
2020-10-22T16:20:54Z |3b|: try running it from *inferior-lisp*
2020-10-22T16:21:07Z |3b|: or from a shell
2020-10-22T16:21:18Z jackdaniel: there is also trivial-main-thread
2020-10-22T16:21:48Z Xach: i just tried that and got a fanciful new crash, hang on
2020-10-22T16:23:38Z Xach: |3b|: cl-glut-examples:render-to-texture worked (but the texture was in a small part of a big window). running graph-paper resulted in The function CL-GLUT:MOUSE-WHEEL-FUNC is undefined.
2020-10-22T16:23:50Z |3b|: also i think in 3b-glim at https://github.com/3b/3b-glim/blob/master/3d-s/scratchpad.lisp#L50 add :version 420 to the reload-program* call
2020-10-22T16:23:59Z |3b|: ah, might also need dev branch of cl-opengl
2020-10-22T16:24:28Z Xach: ok. i am not going to try further for now, thank you for your help.
2020-10-22T16:24:43Z |3b|: ok, hopefully will be easier at some point :)
2020-10-22T16:24:45Z Xach: i am really interested in some way of showing stuff in a window that is not too hard.
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2020-10-22T16:25:23Z |3b| hopes to make that possible at some point, but not there yet :/
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2020-10-22T16:25:51Z Xach: I wouldn't mind if it's only on my mac laptop. But I don't really know where to start.
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2020-10-22T16:27:45Z |3b|: unfortunately mac makes it hardest of the popular OS from what i've seen :/
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2020-10-22T16:28:05Z |3b|: APIs that aren't pure C, stuff that only works on 1 thread, etc
2020-10-22T16:28:26Z phoe: also metal instead of opengl
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2020-10-22T16:28:29Z |3b|: (though windows and linux have their own ways of making things hard)
2020-10-22T16:28:41Z |3b|: yeah, that too
2020-10-22T16:30:30Z |3b|: though hopefully someone will finish a gl->metal wrapper by the time they decide to completely drop gl
2020-10-22T16:31:40Z jackdaniel: in other words they don't rock, do they? :)
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2020-10-22T16:33:12Z |3b|: more that they are very opinionated and happen to have opinions that don't map well to current CL ecosystem :/
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2020-10-22T16:44:20Z Xach: the MCL demos i've seen make me wish for something like that, a bit
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2020-10-22T16:46:02Z Xach: maybe i just need to work out a websocket js 2d drawing gateway or something.
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2020-10-22T16:53:33Z scymtym: Xach: are these demos available online?
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2020-10-22T16:56:04Z Xach: scymtym: i don't have any directly handy. i remember seeing interactions where each on-screen object had a corresponding instance to be inspected and possibly modified on the fly in a seamless way. buttons, windows, etc. nothing conceptually unusual but an impressive level of "just works" energy
2020-10-22T16:56:32Z scymtym: Xach: i see, thank you
2020-10-22T16:57:42Z Nilby: There's things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SK8 written in MCL
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2020-10-22T17:00:49Z Nilby: Also "Action!" in MCL, which inspired Xcode, https://vimeo.com/62618532
2020-10-22T17:02:23Z scymtym: Xach: this probably has too much other stuff around it, but https://github.com/scymtym/McCLIM/tree/wip-broadway-vector/Backends/Broadway contains a websocket-based 2d-graphics systems
2020-10-22T17:03:20Z Nilby: But there's also a lot of cool mac-specific stuff that runs on ccl
2020-10-22T17:03:38Z Nilby: Unfortunately not multi-platform
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2020-10-22T17:22:56Z phoe: Xach: you might want to evaluate https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/jg3qa7/error_while_installing_quicklisp/
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2020-10-22T17:32:04Z Xach:  
2020-10-22T17:32:13Z jackdaniel: (values)
2020-10-22T17:32:20Z phoe: Xach: you got it, yes, the issue is exactly about an unexpected end of data
2020-10-22T17:32:58Z Xach: phoe: thanks for the alert. that often means a network issue.
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2020-10-22T17:55:31Z Xach: mystery "solved"
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2020-10-22T17:56:57Z phoe: we might really need a quicklisp mirror on a service that doesn't need to follow american embargo rules
2020-10-22T17:58:17Z jackdaniel: that will be a military trade secret export, 20y penalty in prison ,)
2020-10-22T17:58:52Z phoe: is ironclad a weapon?
2020-10-22T17:58:58Z Xach: a small price to pay to ensure everyone in the world has access to 27 different personal utility libraries
2020-10-22T17:59:04Z Xach: and 53 test frameworks
2020-10-22T17:59:16Z phoe: oh yes I was waiting for the test frame----wait are these numbers made up
2020-10-22T17:59:24Z phoe: or did you actually check
2020-10-22T17:59:40Z pfdietz: They're more goals than measurements.
2020-10-22T18:00:26Z jackdaniel: hang on, I have 2.5am somewhere on my disk, it is bundled with a reader macro to type lists with [foo 1 2]
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2020-10-22T18:03:42Z scymtym: please make it silently switch from [ to { in case my URL library which also installs a reader macro for [ is already loaded. don't worry, it pushes multiple things onto *FEATURES* so you should have no trouble detecting its presence
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2020-10-22T18:10:52Z eschulte: Does anyone know of an asdf defsystem configuration (maybe using a combination of :in-order-to and symbol-call) to get ASD to automatically ql:quickload any missing dependencies when calling asdf operations (e.g., asdf:test-system)?  I've half-heartedly tried this once or twice with no success.
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2020-10-22T21:08:37Z Xach:   /win 3
2020-10-22T21:08:52Z phoe: you won three times
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2020-10-23T03:05:31Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-10-23T03:06:16Z moon-child: morning beach
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2020-10-23T03:53:19Z dbotton: good evening:)
2020-10-23T03:54:13Z beach: Hello dbotton.
2020-10-23T03:55:26Z beach: I should not have been so cranky yesterday.  I think Xach and phoe have good points.  There are obstacles to Common Lisp use that are straightforward to remove, and that would be a desirable thing to do.
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2020-10-23T03:56:26Z beach: It may require time and energy that nobody here has, but it is still important to make the distinction between those obstacles, and others that can't be removed that easily.
2020-10-23T03:57:45Z beach: So, given the available time and the energy, it is clearly not pointless to remove the simple obstacles.  Whether doing that will significantly increase the use of Common Lisp is mostly an orthogonal issue.
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2020-10-23T04:01:06Z dbotton: yes but if resources short you have to pick a focus
2020-10-23T04:02:18Z beach: Sure.  And most people here are not paid for doing Common Lisp development.
2020-10-23T04:02:27Z beach: So they get to choose what they are interested in.
2020-10-23T04:02:33Z dbotton: identifying who are candidates to be attracted to invest their own time or finding ways to encourage businesses
2020-10-23T04:02:49Z dbotton: would be first step
2020-10-23T04:03:29Z dbotton: then to caterer to them
2020-10-23T04:03:48Z beach: Oh, and I should say that I personally don't see it as high priority to attract more people at all cost.
2020-10-23T04:04:18Z dbotton: quality always
2020-10-23T04:04:27Z dbotton: over quantity
2020-10-23T04:04:44Z beach: Yes, I would much rather see a few devoted people willing to learn sophisticated stuff.
2020-10-23T04:05:28Z dbotton: so figuring out where they are and targeting then is key
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2020-10-23T04:09:38Z beach: I think we are already on the right track.
2020-10-23T04:10:51Z dbotton_: I became interested after reading Martin Craceur's blog
2020-10-23T04:11:20Z beach: Several people here are working on improving the development tools. jackdaniel, scymtym, and many more are working on McCLIM.  I think McCLIM is the key to many other good tools.
2020-10-23T04:11:54Z beach: And scymtym is working on Clouseau, Eclector, and many more things.
2020-10-23T04:12:35Z dbotton_: I wrote the defacto standard for windows dev for Ada and thought that was key, then created Gnoga a gui using a browser as a rendering engine
2020-10-23T04:12:59Z dbotton_: it generated interest but that didn't keep the interest for most
2020-10-23T04:13:19Z dbotton_: if they had to use Ada they did or were enthusiast
2020-10-23T04:13:20Z beach: jackdaniel is working on Clostrum.  heisig is working on Trucler.  Bike and karlosz are doing great work on Cleavir.
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2020-10-23T04:13:45Z dbotton_: but I will see my advocacy had much to do with my investment
2020-10-23T04:14:01Z dbotton_: meaning if people are excited about what they have done they reach out to others
2020-10-23T04:15:24Z dbotton_: So for sure something like McClim is important
2020-10-23T04:16:21Z dbotton_: but as you have to perhaps find the project that reaches the individuals you think would be ideal
2020-10-23T04:17:11Z dbotton_: meaning highlight projects that are interesting
2020-10-23T04:17:23Z dbotton_: many of them even
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2020-10-23T04:17:32Z ldbeth: good afternnon
2020-10-23T04:17:54Z dbotton_: and especially the ones that have the technical angles you want to show off with
2020-10-23T04:18:31Z dbotton_: From what I see Lisp has all the raw material for success
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2020-10-23T04:20:16Z beach: Hello ldbeth.
2020-10-23T04:20:42Z autumn[m]: hi
2020-10-23T04:21:39Z beach: dbotton_: I have a slightly different take on things, I think.  Rather than attempting to attract more people at all cost, I am hoping to decrease the collective maintenance burden of existing experienced people, so as to improve the collective productivity.
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2020-10-23T04:22:47Z beach: Like if McCLIM becomes truly excellent (and I am convinced it will), then more people will spend time using Common Lisp for their GUI programs, rather than wasting time on combinations of Common Lisp and languages with totally different semantics.
2020-10-23T04:23:13Z dbotton_: I am not saying to attract more at all costs, I am saying centralize and show off
2020-10-23T04:23:27Z beach: When these people start using pure Common Lisp solutions, they will contribute to more Common Lisp libraries and such.
2020-10-23T04:23:33Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2020-10-23T04:24:37Z dbotton_: find a way to pool resources
2020-10-23T04:24:46Z dbotton_: Much is already there
2020-10-23T04:25:04Z ldbeth`: I it hard to convincing people get used to event based GUI toolkit such as Qt to use stream based CLIM
2020-10-23T04:25:23Z beach: And if Cleavir becomes truly excellent, then more Common Lisp implementations might decide to use it, thereby making it possible to pool resources for compiler improvements.
2020-10-23T04:26:23Z dbotton_: other languages have the advantage (and disadvantage) of a single sources
2020-10-23T04:26:28Z beach: ldbeth`: That's why I have imagined writing (and I think jackdaniel is doing it) a McCLIM manual that describes CLIM bottom-up, so that people who want event-driven GUIs can quit reading after chapter 2.
2020-10-23T04:27:16Z beach: ldbeth`: The "mistake" with existing CLIM documentation is that it shows the stream-based style first.
2020-10-23T04:28:28Z dbotton_: python is python, rust is rust, ruby is ruby
2020-10-23T04:28:59Z beach: dbotton_: Yes, but we have the advantage of CLOS.  So we can make things implementation independent, yet easy to customize, I think much easier than what is possible in other languages.
2020-10-23T04:29:23Z aeth: dbotton_: But the largest of the popular languages tend to have multiple popular implementations. C, C++, JavaScript... Really, Java is the outlier there.
2020-10-23T04:29:28Z dbotton_: so that is what needs to be shown off
2020-10-23T04:30:04Z aeth: (Actually, Java has two major implementations. The JVM Java for desktops/servers and the Android version of Java.)
2020-10-23T04:30:19Z dbotton_: c and c++ acutally considering size of community don't have that many implementations
2020-10-23T04:30:26Z aeth: 3.
2020-10-23T04:30:47Z aeth: CL really only has two big implementations (SBCL and CCL). The rest fit various niches.
2020-10-23T04:31:33Z dbotton_: For the size of community that is amazing
2020-10-23T04:31:43Z ldbeth`: it is very good to be able to use CL in CL compiler development, imagining an APL compiler company doesn't not require the employees to be proficient in APL but must can write efficient C code
2020-10-23T04:34:02Z dbotton_: So centralize and show - technical articles, marketing materials (why use Lisp for your business, showing the speed of dev, etc), interesting projects, etc
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2020-10-23T04:34:21Z aeth: (And C, like CL, has various niche compilers. C++ is apparently too hard to make compilers for, so it's not quite as common.)
2020-10-23T04:34:23Z dbotton_: comparative articles between languages
2020-10-23T04:35:36Z beach: dbotton_: Exactly!  And I think we are on to something.  It appears that with Common Lisp, we are able to accomplish great stuff with only a handful of people, whereas it seems that other languages need entire groups of people and commercial support to do even things like adding a feature to the language (which they must do because they have complicated syntax and no macros) every 3 years or so.
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2020-10-23T04:36:15Z pillton: My favourite is docker vs save-lisp-and-die.
2020-10-23T04:36:32Z dbotton_: I would love to see an article on that
2020-10-23T04:36:34Z dbotton_: a video
2020-10-23T04:36:35Z dbotton_: etc
2020-10-23T04:36:40Z dbotton_: that is what I mean
2020-10-23T04:36:50Z beach: pillton: I don't know docker, so can you explain a bit more?
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2020-10-23T04:38:11Z dbotton_: I started reading phoe's book and really love the angle and the fact that all the major advanced features are actually just normal extensions of the base language
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2020-10-23T04:38:51Z dbotton_: who would believe that the condition system could be implemented as a library and not need compiler support
2020-10-23T04:39:10Z dbotton_: the fact that the standard has not needed to be updated
2020-10-23T04:39:10Z beach: It shows that the base language is pretty sound.
2020-10-23T04:39:11Z dbotton_: etc
2020-10-23T04:39:31Z beach: As opposed to something like C++ that needs to be modified every 3 years.
2020-10-23T04:39:34Z pillton: beach: Docker is a portable image format which allows you to bundle your application in a container to make it easier to deploy. The container is supposed to have everything needed to run your application.
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2020-10-23T04:40:35Z beach: dbotton_: The condition system, yes.  But also CLOS is mainly a library, except for some very minor additions to CLtL1 required, like funcallable standard objects.
2020-10-23T04:40:54Z dbotton_: That is my point
2020-10-23T04:41:05Z beach: pillton: And how does that compare to save-lisp-and-die?
2020-10-23T04:41:25Z dbotton_: can five away a container ready to go
2020-10-23T04:42:16Z ldbeth: well, it is because many applications has dependencies messed up
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2020-10-23T04:42:33Z pillton: beach: In order to create an image you need to write a Docker file which provides instructions on how to create the image. In CL, you just load the system with ASDF and save the image using save-lisp-and-die.
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2020-10-23T04:42:55Z beach: pillton: Yes, I see.
2020-10-23T04:43:04Z ldbeth: However it is still not very gracefully if you need external C libs for your CL programs
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2020-10-23T04:44:49Z dbotton_: http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
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2020-10-23T04:46:57Z dbotton_: that article is well known I am sure, but is the marketing approach that works, even 17 years later has a good angle
2020-10-23T04:48:13Z dbotton_: push the technical angle to peak interest in the right developers and peak business interest that the language has real advantages
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2020-10-23T04:51:07Z dbotton_: showing that there are new and exciting implementations important too
2020-10-23T04:51:53Z beach: dbotton_: If I remember correctly, ViaWeb was sold to Yahoo, who turned it into Yahoo Store by rewriting everything in some other language.  I forget which.
2020-10-23T04:52:07Z dbotton_: Clasp for llvm is important for example show investments in Lisp are worth it
2020-10-23T04:53:11Z dbotton_: it is a big factor for me
2020-10-23T04:53:40Z dbotton_: I want what I write to be useful many years from now
2020-10-23T04:53:55Z beach: Why do you think Clasp is important?  I am not questioning its importance, but I would like to know your reason for saying that.
2020-10-23T04:54:02Z dbotton_: llvm
2020-10-23T04:54:44Z dbotton_: for many they believe it is the new world post gnu
2020-10-23T04:54:51Z beach: My take on Clasp is that drmeister thought it would be better to make C++ usable from Common Lisp than to rewrite CANDO and all the other chemistry libraries in Common Lisp.
2020-10-23T04:55:22Z dbotton_: investment for future use in future tech etc
2020-10-23T04:55:29Z beach: dbotton_: Why the desire for a post-GNU world?
2020-10-23T04:55:53Z dbotton_: Personally no diff
2020-10-23T04:56:10Z dbotton_: But for some less restrictive license
2020-10-23T04:56:33Z dbotton_: and corporate investments in it
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2020-10-23T04:56:51Z no-defun-allowed: I was hoping "post-GNU world" would entail going in the other direction.
2020-10-23T04:56:52Z dbotton_: ability to write for ios and android
2020-10-23T04:56:53Z beach: And why is that desirable, unless you are one of the people or companies who want to take free stuff and then commercialize it for your own profit?
2020-10-23T04:57:24Z dbotton_: I am a long time gnu guy
2020-10-23T04:58:10Z dbotton_: answering a question as to why
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2020-10-23T04:58:47Z dbotton_: from the perspective of a language activist you want them to steel it
2020-10-23T04:59:12Z drmeister: They rewrote ViaWeb in C++ and Perl
2020-10-23T04:59:50Z beach: Amazing.
2020-10-23T05:00:27Z dbotton_: most rewrites are because employees think they have better chance for next job with those skills
2020-10-23T05:00:34Z dbotton_: and they are right
2020-10-23T05:00:52Z beach: Let me repeat this again:  It is amazing how much time and energy people are willing to spend in order to avoid learning and using Common Lisp.
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2020-10-23T05:01:18Z dbotton_: that is why universities drop languages that help actually develop a programmer in to something more
2020-10-23T05:01:46Z dbotton_: Ada, smalltalk, Lisp
2020-10-23T05:02:10Z dbotton_: I think that tools that force you to think different more important
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2020-10-23T05:04:02Z dbotton_: afterwards if forced to use C or Python etc you have a different mind set
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2020-10-23T05:07:56Z dbotton_: how far is clasp from a 1.0?
2020-10-23T05:09:47Z drmeister: Way past it.
2020-10-23T05:11:35Z drmeister: We are largely developing it for a specific application and we keep improving it.
2020-10-23T05:12:37Z dbotton_: git hub says - NOTE: November 28, 2018 - This contains a pre-release of Clasp 0.9.
2020-10-23T05:12:55Z drmeister: But it passes all but a few of the ANSI tests.   Currently we are improving the compiler to improve performance.
2020-10-23T05:13:19Z drmeister: Yes - I haven't had time to update that.  I've been focused on other things for the past 8 months.
2020-10-23T05:13:49Z drmeister: We are working on a new technology to deal with pandemics.
2020-10-23T05:13:54Z dbotton_: Are there binary installers for windows
2020-10-23T05:14:02Z dbotton_: cool
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2020-10-23T05:15:34Z no-defun-allowed: What makes using LLVM your code "useful many years from now", may I ask? SBCL is also public domain or BSD licensed if it's still a license thing.
2020-10-23T05:15:36Z drmeister: We don't support Windows.
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2020-10-23T05:16:32Z beach: I am also curious about the answer to the question by no-defun-allowed.
2020-10-23T05:16:32Z drmeister: no-defun-allowed: If that is a question for me I don't know if using LLVM does - although it does allow us to interoperate with C++ code.
2020-10-23T05:16:37Z dbotton_: I was not saying for myself, the marketing image
2020-10-23T05:16:42Z no-defun-allowed: Not to say you shouldn't use Clasp, but an older implementation would probably cause less headaches to set up.
2020-10-23T05:16:50Z beach: To me LLVM is a necessary evil to make C++ work with Clasp.
2020-10-23T05:17:03Z drmeister: beach: Yeah - pretty much.
2020-10-23T05:17:19Z drmeister: no-defun-allowed: An older implementation?
2020-10-23T05:17:23Z dbotton_: and for me a possibility for using it on platforms not supported by other compilers
2020-10-23T05:17:37Z no-defun-allowed: drmeister: Yes, I was wondering what the relationship dbotton_ appeared to have between LLVM and stability.
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2020-10-23T05:18:04Z drmeister: dbotton_: We are about to generalize things so that we can run on any backend that llvm has.  Currently we are tied to x86_64
2020-10-23T05:18:34Z no-defun-allowed: drmeister: I suppose "more commonly used implementation" would be more accurate, but I don't want to make it sound like usage and ease of use are related.
2020-10-23T05:18:37Z drmeister: LLVM has a lot of investment in it - it's a slow - but pretty good compiler backend library.
2020-10-23T05:19:39Z drmeister: It would have been hell to achieve C++ interoperability with other Common Lisp implementations because of peculiarities of C++ - and C++ is a moving target.
2020-10-23T05:19:42Z beach: drmeister: I am betting that it is a very complex one too, partly due to the fact that it is written in a language without sophisticated development facilities like GC and CLOS.
2020-10-23T05:19:56Z no-defun-allowed: Some people have said that Clozure is nicer to work in, though it's less commonly used than SBCL, for example. And telling someone to use what's most frequently used is a good way to cause stagnation.
2020-10-23T05:20:04Z drmeister: Why maintain C++ interoperability - there are a lot of C++ libraries I want to use.
2020-10-23T05:22:16Z drmeister: beach: Yes - but there are a lot of people working on LLVM - and they do the massive amount of work it takes to move it forward.
2020-10-23T05:22:41Z drmeister: It's still slow, slow, slow.   SBCL is a much faster compiler and it generates really good code.
2020-10-23T05:23:05Z beach: Sure, but it seems to be moving forward in all the ways that I see with C++ itself and other languages, making it a moving target as well.
2020-10-23T05:23:20Z no-defun-allowed: dbotton_: Also, you may get a kick out of the support grid on http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
2020-10-23T05:23:24Z drmeister: Oh yes - I'm constantly playing catchup.
2020-10-23T05:23:59Z beach: So I am wondering whether it takes that massive amount of work because it is complicated, and meant to be used to compile a complicated moving target language.
2020-10-23T05:24:12Z beach: ... as opposed to some intrinsic complexity I mean.
2020-10-23T05:25:18Z drmeister: I don't know - it's a large software library written in C++ - I'd be surprised if it was fast and efficient and easy to maintain.
2020-10-23T05:26:07Z dbotton_: no-defun-allowed I am using sbcl and so far very pleased
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2020-10-23T05:26:33Z drmeister: I try not to complain about the stuff I use - I'm just glad it's there and I didn't have to write it.
2020-10-23T05:26:38Z dbotton_: my big point is it all make Lisp very attractive
2020-10-23T05:26:54Z drmeister: Except build systems - I like complaining about them. :-)
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2020-10-23T05:29:32Z drmeister: dbotton_: I really just care about one thing - I want to write software that works five, ten, twenty years later. That way I can build stuff over a long time that keeps working.   There are only a few languages that support that.   Fortran, C, C++, Common Lisp.
2020-10-23T05:30:07Z dbotton_: Exactly
2020-10-23T05:30:09Z drmeister: Otherwise we are scratching programs into the sand with the tide coming in.
2020-10-23T05:31:07Z dbotton_: We were talking about Lisp and have the elements for success and that I believe is the most important point
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2020-10-23T05:31:40Z drmeister: I've lost way too much code because I wrote it in poor choices like Python, TCL, and Smalltalk etc.
2020-10-23T05:31:44Z dbotton_: that my investment in a language will be there years from now, ie I can compile and run what I wrote 20 years ago
2020-10-23T05:32:05Z dbotton_: I hear you
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2020-10-23T05:33:02Z drmeister: Right - and I think C++ is a reasonable domain specific language for working with tightly packed structures - but I don't want to write anything too complicated or exploratory in it.
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2020-10-23T05:33:31Z drmeister: As your program grows the build time grows and you get trapped in the complexity.
2020-10-23T05:34:18Z drmeister: I didn't think Clasp would be as much work as it turned out to be.   Writing an efficient language implementation is HARD.
2020-10-23T05:34:37Z drmeister: But I learned a lot - and now I have my own software development toolchain.
2020-10-23T05:34:41Z drmeister: I like that a lot.
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2020-10-23T05:35:39Z dbotton_: I can appreciate that
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2020-10-23T05:44:40Z ldbeth: for building system, anything better than `make' can done its job
2020-10-23T05:46:58Z dbotton_: drmeister looking at a talk of yours neat stuff
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2020-10-23T05:52:00Z drmeister: Good night - its late here.
2020-10-23T05:52:25Z no-defun-allowed: Take care.
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2020-10-23T06:38:37Z names: rumbler31__ sammich kini igemnace hnOsmium0001 bitmapper cg505 OlCe luna_is_here_ _whitelogger __jrjsmrtn__ epony jw4 simplegauss sveit datajerk Blukunfando CrazyEddy Oddity specbot minion terrorjack leo_song froggey bocaneri jprajzne bhartrihari sjl jibanes flip214 remexre antoszka mgsk- aindilis notzmv sm2n_ Posterdati iskander- hjudt dyelar Lord_Nightmare Mandus ski cods arpunk beach cyberlard malm zaquest elflng nullman ecraven jello_pudding
2020-10-23T06:38:37Z names: theBlackDragon karstensrage Kaisyu7 perrier-jouet karswell nullheroes niceplace johnjay ariedro mfiano Jesin eddof13 elioat quazimod1 dmiles goldrin1227[m] santiagopim[m]1 14WAAFTGT 7IZAAI973 cairn kelamir[m] pcgme[m] even4void[m] tekipeps[m] hansbauer[m] infra_red[m] santiagopim[m] katco Dmytro[m] ThaEwat MrtnDk[m] materialfuture[m kinope eriix[m] no-defun-allowed Gnuxie[m] ggoes lemoinem X-Scale azrazalea jxy mason kapil_ lottaquestions phadthai jasom
2020-10-23T06:38:37Z names: midre drot gjvc xi ravndal dvdmuckle [df] Nikotiini dmc00 @fe[nl]ix Blkt Inoperable emacsomancer voidlily vaporatorius dddddd aap luis lonjil jbgg MightyJoe grfn cognemo eschatologist logo4poop astronavt___ Robdgreat kagevf lavaflow C-16 yang samebchase loke CEnnis91 gendl rme yottabyte phoe arbv gum madnificent mseddon alandipert shinohai chrpape nightfly_ jdz ffwacom otwieracz Firedancer_ rixard anddam tychoish pok Christ0pher Balooga stux|RC kilimanjaro
2020-10-23T06:38:37Z names: buoy49 d4ryus grumboo snits joast thonkpod parisienne larme gingerale diamondbond conjunctive mgsk tfb mjl dwts jsatk banjiewen_ RagnarDanneskjol pent boeg sgithens Khisanth thecoffemaker gabiruh TMA cpape bmansurov nopf axion drmeister eta thijso devrtz andinus h11 ineiros Papa trittweiler mtd ft z0d spal ioa femi |3b| glamas FennecCode davsebamse krjst nckx idxu nmg gensym p_l johs sebboh alanz Fade Grauwolf jlpeters trn tessier spacebat2 selwyn jerme_
2020-10-23T06:38:37Z names: natj212 v3ga rvirding ane fouric lansiir XachX l1x chewbranca entel docl White_Flame gko lad troydm vsync Patternmaster bkst guaqua avicenna lukego rotty greaser|q housel physpi jmercouris mpontillo gaze__ travv0 dnm gjnoonan bytesighs billstclair stylewarning xantoz flazh SAL9000 borodust AdmiralBumbleBee cpt_nemo zagura seisatsu heredoc_ beaky bacterio easye micro interruptinuse dale splittist Cthulhux jackdaniel dim ramin saturn2 hiredman knobo
2020-10-23T06:38:37Z names: moon-child mikecheck copec ramus creat drewc matijja Krystof vhost- Yardanico HDurer Demosthenex hvxgr cyberbanjo jonathan| SumoSud0 APic mister_m winny MetaYan nitrix Tordek vert2 cgay brass ck_ rumpelszn Grue`` justinmcp mgr_ xristos kim\ felideon _death mrSpec Ankhers eMBee catern jgkamat fengshaun ozzloy shenghi gabot swflint null_ptr fiddlerwoaroof lieven esotericalgo jackhill Ekho himmAllRight17 mr_yogurt tomaw brandonz zymurgy markasoftware eagleflo
2020-10-23T06:38:37Z names: sukaeto dlowe cmatei add^_ kbtr Odin- ult Ziemas ferada bonz060 payphone penguwin Kabriel zigpaw1 Frankenlime HiRE_ srji jfb4 wigust mbrumlow grobe0ba mood r3x5 samebchase- hdasch gpiero stux|RC-only shrysr madand
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2020-10-23T06:52:58Z names: xlei rumbler31__ sammich kini igemnace hnOsmium0001 bitmapper cg505 OlCe luna_is_here_ _whitelogger __jrjsmrtn__ epony jw4 simplegauss sveit datajerk Blukunfando CrazyEddy Oddity specbot minion terrorjack leo_song froggey bocaneri jprajzne bhartrihari sjl jibanes flip214 remexre antoszka mgsk- aindilis notzmv sm2n_ Posterdati iskander- hjudt dyelar Lord_Nightmare Mandus ski cods arpunk beach cyberlard malm zaquest elflng nullman ecraven jello_pudding
2020-10-23T06:52:58Z names: theBlackDragon karstensrage Kaisyu7 perrier-jouet karswell nullheroes niceplace johnjay ariedro mfiano Jesin eddof13 elioat quazimod1 dmiles goldrin1227[m] santiagopim[m]1 14WAAFTGT 7IZAAI973 cairn kelamir[m] pcgme[m] even4void[m] tekipeps[m] hansbauer[m] infra_red[m] santiagopim[m] katco Dmytro[m] ThaEwat MrtnDk[m] materialfuture[m kinope eriix[m] no-defun-allowed Gnuxie[m] ggoes lemoinem X-Scale azrazalea jxy mason kapil_ lottaquestions phadthai jasom
2020-10-23T06:52:58Z names: midre drot gjvc xi ravndal dvdmuckle [df] Nikotiini dmc00 @fe[nl]ix Blkt Inoperable emacsomancer voidlily vaporatorius dddddd aap luis lonjil jbgg MightyJoe grfn cognemo eschatologist logo4poop astronavt___ Robdgreat kagevf lavaflow C-16 yang samebchase loke CEnnis91 gendl rme yottabyte phoe arbv gum madnificent mseddon alandipert shinohai chrpape nightfly_ jdz ffwacom otwieracz Firedancer_ rixard anddam tychoish pok Christ0pher Balooga stux|RC kilimanjaro
2020-10-23T06:52:58Z names: buoy49 d4ryus grumboo snits joast thonkpod parisienne larme gingerale diamondbond conjunctive mgsk tfb mjl dwts jsatk banjiewen_ RagnarDanneskjol pent boeg sgithens Khisanth thecoffemaker gabiruh TMA cpape bmansurov nopf axion drmeister eta thijso devrtz andinus h11 ineiros Papa trittweiler mtd ft z0d spal ioa femi |3b| glamas FennecCode davsebamse krjst nckx idxu nmg gensym p_l johs sebboh alanz Fade Grauwolf jlpeters trn tessier spacebat2 selwyn jerme_
2020-10-23T06:52:58Z names: natj212 v3ga rvirding ane fouric lansiir XachX l1x chewbranca entel docl White_Flame gko lad troydm vsync Patternmaster bkst guaqua avicenna lukego rotty greaser|q housel physpi jmercouris mpontillo gaze__ travv0 dnm gjnoonan bytesighs billstclair stylewarning xantoz flazh SAL9000 borodust AdmiralBumbleBee cpt_nemo zagura seisatsu heredoc_ beaky bacterio easye micro interruptinuse dale splittist Cthulhux jackdaniel dim ramin saturn2 hiredman knobo
2020-10-23T06:52:58Z names: moon-child mikecheck copec ramus creat drewc matijja Krystof vhost- Yardanico HDurer Demosthenex hvxgr cyberbanjo jonathan| SumoSud0 APic mister_m winny MetaYan nitrix Tordek vert2 cgay brass ck_ rumpelszn Grue`` justinmcp mgr_ xristos kim\ felideon _death mrSpec Ankhers eMBee catern jgkamat fengshaun ozzloy shenghi gabot swflint null_ptr fiddlerwoaroof lieven esotericalgo jackhill Ekho himmAllRight17 mr_yogurt tomaw brandonz zymurgy markasoftware eagleflo
2020-10-23T06:52:58Z names: sukaeto dlowe cmatei add^_ kbtr Odin- ult Ziemas ferada bonz060 payphone penguwin Kabriel zigpaw1 Frankenlime HiRE_ srji jfb4 wigust mbrumlow grobe0ba mood r3x5 samebchase- hdasch gpiero stux|RC-only shrysr madand
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2020-10-23T06:58:04Z names: rumbler31__ sammich kini igemnace hnOsmium0001 bitmapper cg505 OlCe luna_is_here_ _whitelogger __jrjsmrtn__ epony jw4 simplegauss sveit datajerk Blukunfando CrazyEddy Oddity specbot minion terrorjack leo_song froggey bocaneri jprajzne bhartrihari sjl jibanes flip214 remexre antoszka mgsk- aindilis notzmv sm2n_ Posterdati iskander- hjudt dyelar Lord_Nightmare Mandus ski cods arpunk beach cyberlard malm zaquest elflng nullman ecraven jello_pudding
2020-10-23T06:58:04Z names: theBlackDragon karstensrage Kaisyu7 perrier-jouet karswell nullheroes niceplace johnjay ariedro mfiano Jesin eddof13 elioat quazimod1 dmiles goldrin1227[m] santiagopim[m]1 14WAAFTGT 7IZAAI973 cairn kelamir[m] pcgme[m] even4void[m] tekipeps[m] hansbauer[m] infra_red[m] santiagopim[m] katco Dmytro[m] ThaEwat MrtnDk[m] materialfuture[m kinope eriix[m] no-defun-allowed Gnuxie[m] ggoes lemoinem X-Scale azrazalea jxy mason kapil_ lottaquestions phadthai jasom
2020-10-23T06:58:04Z names: midre drot gjvc xi ravndal dvdmuckle [df] Nikotiini dmc00 @fe[nl]ix Blkt Inoperable emacsomancer voidlily vaporatorius dddddd aap luis lonjil jbgg MightyJoe grfn cognemo eschatologist logo4poop astronavt___ Robdgreat kagevf lavaflow C-16 yang samebchase loke CEnnis91 gendl rme yottabyte phoe arbv gum madnificent mseddon alandipert shinohai chrpape nightfly_ jdz ffwacom otwieracz Firedancer_ rixard anddam tychoish pok Christ0pher Balooga stux|RC kilimanjaro
2020-10-23T06:58:04Z names: buoy49 d4ryus grumboo snits joast thonkpod parisienne larme gingerale diamondbond conjunctive mgsk tfb mjl dwts jsatk banjiewen_ RagnarDanneskjol pent boeg sgithens Khisanth thecoffemaker gabiruh TMA cpape bmansurov nopf axion drmeister eta thijso devrtz andinus h11 ineiros Papa trittweiler mtd ft z0d spal ioa femi |3b| glamas FennecCode davsebamse krjst nckx idxu nmg gensym p_l johs sebboh alanz Fade Grauwolf jlpeters trn tessier spacebat2 selwyn jerme_
2020-10-23T06:58:04Z names: natj212 v3ga rvirding ane fouric lansiir XachX l1x chewbranca entel docl White_Flame gko lad troydm vsync Patternmaster bkst guaqua avicenna lukego rotty greaser|q housel physpi jmercouris mpontillo gaze__ travv0 dnm gjnoonan bytesighs billstclair stylewarning xantoz flazh SAL9000 borodust AdmiralBumbleBee cpt_nemo zagura seisatsu heredoc_ beaky bacterio easye micro interruptinuse dale splittist Cthulhux jackdaniel dim ramin saturn2 hiredman knobo moon-child
2020-10-23T06:58:04Z names: mikecheck copec ramus creat drewc matijja Krystof vhost- Yardanico HDurer Demosthenex hvxgr cyberbanjo jonathan| SumoSud0 APic mister_m winny MetaYan nitrix Tordek vert2 cgay brass ck_ madand shrysr stux|RC-only gpiero hdasch samebchase- r3x5 mood grobe0ba mbrumlow wigust jfb4 srji HiRE_ Frankenlime zigpaw1 Kabriel penguwin payphone bonz060 ferada Ziemas ult Odin- kbtr add^_ cmatei dlowe sukaeto eagleflo markasoftware zymurgy brandonz tomaw mr_yogurt
2020-10-23T06:58:04Z names: himmAllRight17 Ekho jackhill esotericalgo lieven fiddlerwoaroof null_ptr swflint gabot shenghi ozzloy fengshaun jgkamat catern eMBee Ankhers rumpelszn Grue`` justinmcp mgr_ xristos kim\ felideon _death mrSpec
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2020-10-23T07:03:25Z names: abbe jonatack xlei rumbler31__ sammich kini igemnace hnOsmium0001 bitmapper cg505 OlCe luna_is_here_ _whitelogger __jrjsmrtn__ epony jw4 simplegauss sveit datajerk Blukunfando CrazyEddy Oddity specbot minion terrorjack leo_song froggey bocaneri jprajzne bhartrihari sjl jibanes flip214 remexre antoszka mgsk- aindilis notzmv sm2n_ Posterdati iskander- hjudt dyelar Lord_Nightmare Mandus ski cods arpunk beach cyberlard malm zaquest elflng nullman ecraven
2020-10-23T07:03:25Z names: jello_pudding theBlackDragon karstensrage Kaisyu7 perrier-jouet karswell nullheroes niceplace johnjay ariedro mfiano Jesin eddof13 elioat quazimod1 dmiles goldrin1227[m] santiagopim[m]1 14WAAFTGT 7IZAAI973 cairn kelamir[m] pcgme[m] even4void[m] tekipeps[m] hansbauer[m] infra_red[m] santiagopim[m] katco Dmytro[m] ThaEwat MrtnDk[m] materialfuture[m kinope eriix[m] no-defun-allowed Gnuxie[m] ggoes lemoinem X-Scale azrazalea jxy mason kapil_ lottaquestions
2020-10-23T07:03:25Z names: phadthai jasom midre drot gjvc xi ravndal dvdmuckle [df] Nikotiini dmc00 @fe[nl]ix Blkt Inoperable emacsomancer voidlily vaporatorius dddddd aap luis lonjil jbgg MightyJoe grfn cognemo eschatologist logo4poop astronavt___ Robdgreat kagevf lavaflow C-16 yang samebchase loke CEnnis91 gendl rme yottabyte phoe arbv gum madnificent mseddon alandipert chrpape nightfly_ jdz ffwacom otwieracz Firedancer_ rixard anddam tychoish pok Christ0pher Balooga stux|RC
2020-10-23T07:03:25Z names: kilimanjaro buoy49 d4ryus grumboo snits joast thonkpod parisienne larme gingerale diamondbond conjunctive mgsk tfb mjl dwts jsatk banjiewen_ RagnarDanneskjol pent boeg sgithens Khisanth thecoffemaker gabiruh TMA cpape bmansurov nopf axion drmeister eta thijso devrtz andinus h11 ineiros Papa trittweiler mtd ft z0d spal ioa femi |3b| glamas FennecCode davsebamse krjst nckx idxu nmg gensym p_l johs sebboh alanz Fade Grauwolf jlpeters trn tessier spacebat2
2020-10-23T07:03:25Z names: selwyn jerme_ natj212 v3ga rvirding ane fouric lansiir XachX l1x chewbranca entel docl White_Flame gko lad troydm vsync Patternmaster bkst guaqua avicenna lukego rotty greaser|q housel physpi jmercouris mpontillo gaze__ travv0 dnm gjnoonan bytesighs billstclair stylewarning xantoz flazh SAL9000 borodust AdmiralBumbleBee cpt_nemo zagura seisatsu heredoc_ beaky bacterio easye micro interruptinuse dale splittist Cthulhux jackdaniel dim ramin saturn2 hiredman
2020-10-23T07:03:25Z names: knobo moon-child mikecheck copec ramus creat drewc matijja Krystof vhost- Yardanico HDurer Demosthenex hvxgr cyberbanjo jonathan| SumoSud0 APic mister_m winny MetaYan nitrix Tordek vert2 cgay brass ck_ madand shrysr stux|RC-only gpiero hdasch samebchase- r3x5 mood grobe0ba mbrumlow wigust jfb4 srji HiRE_ Frankenlime zigpaw1 Kabriel penguwin rumpelszn Grue`` justinmcp mgr_ xristos kim\ felideon _death mrSpec Ankhers eMBee catern jgkamat fengshaun ozzloy
2020-10-23T07:03:25Z names: shenghi gabot swflint null_ptr fiddlerwoaroof lieven esotericalgo jackhill Ekho himmAllRight17 mr_yogurt tomaw brandonz zymurgy markasoftware eagleflo sukaeto dlowe cmatei add^_ kbtr Odin- ult Ziemas ferada bonz060 payphone
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2020-10-23T13:55:10Z jmercouris: how to loop collecting a longer and longer string?
2020-10-23T13:55:58Z jmercouris: (loop for i in (list 0 1 2 3) collect "x") -> ("x" "x" "x" "x")
2020-10-23T13:56:02Z jmercouris: as expected
2020-10-23T13:56:09Z jmercouris: however, what if I wish to have "xxxx"
2020-10-23T13:56:27Z pve: for i across "xxxx"
2020-10-23T13:56:48Z jmercouris: I am not looking to iterate character by character
2020-10-23T13:56:52Z pve: oh sorry
2020-10-23T13:57:15Z dlowe: (with-output-to-string (s) (loop repeat 4 do (write-char #\x s)))
2020-10-23T13:57:25Z pve: jmercouris: then look at vector-push-extend
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2020-10-23T13:57:42Z jmercouris: OK, so there is no loop construct that does this then?
2020-10-23T13:57:47Z Bike: there is not.
2020-10-23T13:57:53Z jmercouris: alright, thank you everyone
2020-10-23T13:58:00Z Bike: i would do: collect #\x into l finally (return (coerce l 'string))
2020-10-23T13:58:02Z dlowe: iterate might, and you could probably add one if it doesn't
2020-10-23T13:58:23Z Bike: if you're adding strings rather than characters, i would use concatenate or indeed with-output-to-string
2020-10-23T13:58:24Z jmercouris: the thing is I am not actually dealing with characters, but strings
2020-10-23T13:58:36Z Nilby: from my tests reduce by conatenate is fastest on sbcl and with-output-to-string is fastest on ecl
2020-10-23T13:59:45Z phoe: jmercouris: (loop for i in ... collect (make-string i :initial-element #\x))
2020-10-23T14:00:25Z dlowe: not being able to collect into a vector is a pretty big wart on loop
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2020-10-23T14:00:58Z _death: fun fact: format can take a string with a fill pointer
2020-10-23T14:01:29Z phoe: if you collect into a vector then you'll need to copy it anyway in order to have ("x" "xx" "xxx" "xxxx" ...)
2020-10-23T14:01:49Z jmercouris: I just ended up concat'ing all of the strings outside the loop body
2020-10-23T14:02:01Z jmercouris: (apply #'str:concat (loop ..))
2020-10-23T14:02:50Z dlowe: You might want to use reduce instead of apply so as to not hit argument number limits
2020-10-23T14:03:32Z _death: that's a terrible way to concatenate strings
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2020-10-23T14:05:58Z jackdaniel: (loop until (string-equal (random-string) (expected-result)) finally (return (random-string))) ; that will work under assumption, that random-string will generate the same string twice in a row
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2020-10-23T14:06:49Z dlowe: _death: you could be referring to any of the solutions offered here :p
2020-10-23T14:07:25Z _death: dlowe: I mean the O(n^2) solutions
2020-10-23T14:07:37Z dlowe: an efficient implementation would sum the lengths of strings, create a new string of the proper size, and REPLACE them all into the destination
2020-10-23T14:07:44Z dlowe: surely one of the utility libraries have this
2020-10-23T14:08:42Z dlowe: O(n^2) can be fine as long as n is small, tho
2020-10-23T14:08:53Z dlowe: depends on how often you use it
2020-10-23T14:10:12Z _death: if you know the length beforehand, allocating a string and replacing (or FORMAT :) is indeed good.. but w-o-t-s is also good enough, and apply concatenate should also be ok.. not reduce though
2020-10-23T14:11:23Z Bike: dlowe: that's just concatenate. like look at sbcl's implementation for example.
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2020-10-23T14:11:36Z Xach: with-output-to-string has a chance of working well
2020-10-23T14:12:07Z _death: Xach: yeah, amortized cost
2020-10-23T14:13:16Z dlowe: Bike: yeah, but concatenate uses the argument list
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2020-10-23T14:20:07Z Bike: is that an actual problem people hit? call-arguments-limit is usually pretty big
2020-10-23T14:20:25Z Bike: even if it is, you could probably break it up into  multiple concate calls and then concat the results
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2020-10-23T14:21:04Z dlowe: (defun concat-string-list (l) (let ((o 0)) (reduce (lambda (r s) (replace r s :start1 o) (incf\
2020-10-23T14:21:04Z dlowe:  o (length s)) r) l :initial-value (make-string (reduce '+ l :key 'length)))))
2020-10-23T14:21:19Z dlowe: bah. terminal.
2020-10-23T14:22:10Z dlowe: the iterative version is about the same length and probably faster
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2020-10-23T14:22:31Z dlowe: (defun concat-string-list (l) (loop with r = (make-string (reduce '+ l :key 'length)) for o = 0 then (+ o (length s)) for s in l do (replace r s :start1 o) finally (return r)))
2020-10-23T14:23:11Z jackdaniel: (format nil "~{~a~}" l) ; is certainly shorter
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2020-10-23T14:24:15Z dlowe: we can shorten the invocation by changing the function name :p
2020-10-23T14:24:25Z dlowe: (csl l) ; hah
2020-10-23T14:24:26Z jackdaniel: true that :)
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2020-10-23T14:24:37Z _death: {L
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2020-10-23T14:38:36Z _death: Bike: call-arguments-limit may be big, but in practice things don't go so well.. I just tried (progn (apply #'concatenate 'string (loop repeat 100000 collect "x")) nil) on sbcl
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2020-10-23T14:47:57Z jackdaniel: I think that if you try to concatenate 100k strings, you may have other problems than the call arguments limit :)
2020-10-23T14:48:37Z jackdaniel: hm, too many ":)", that was obviously a joke, but not a sarcastic one, mind that!
2020-10-23T14:50:39Z _death: other problems.. I just compiled sbcl from head and trying to figure out what some strange new warnings mean
2020-10-23T14:52:13Z _death: ;   caught 9 WARNING conditions ;   caught 500 STYLE-WARNING conditions ;   printed 3604 notes
2020-10-23T14:52:57Z phoe: _death: post them somewhere!
2020-10-23T14:53:02Z phoe: (just not here)
2020-10-23T14:53:24Z _death: phoe: the codebase is not public
2020-10-23T14:54:10Z phoe: oh! I thought you meant SBCL warnings
2020-10-23T14:54:19Z phoe: instead that's some system compiled with SBCL
2020-10-23T14:54:39Z _death: yes, and these also include all the third party libraries
2020-10-23T14:54:40Z phoe: AFAIK the new SBCL warns about variables which are written to but not read
2020-10-23T14:55:03Z _death: I saw that commit before I merged to my master ;)
2020-10-23T14:55:15Z phoe: but I don't know about others
2020-10-23T14:55:20Z _death: but the warning that confounds me at the moment is a type derivation one
2020-10-23T14:55:34Z phoe: are you able to post that warning alone without infriging on any copyright?
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2020-10-23T14:56:07Z _death: sure.. it's my personal snippets code base after all.. but I think I'll take more time to understand it
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2020-10-23T15:43:38Z _death: anyway, the warning said that the derived type of something is (values null &optional) not number because it's the result of CAR, and although I know it to always be a cons (with a number in car) sbcl thought NIL might be passed to CAR
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2020-10-23T15:46:15Z phoe: uh wait a second
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2020-10-23T15:46:33Z phoe: the only object of type (VALUES NULL &OPTIONAL) is NIL
2020-10-23T15:46:50Z _death: indeed, that's what got my confused
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2020-10-23T15:47:16Z phoe: can you post a code snippet? this is weird
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2020-10-23T15:51:28Z _death: creating a minimal test case
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2020-10-23T15:57:59Z _death: ok, by creating the minimal case it's obvious why it happens
2020-10-23T15:58:33Z beach: _death: Nice dangling participle there.
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2020-10-23T16:00:01Z _death: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2088#2088
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2020-10-23T16:17:00Z phoe: so after line 2 SBCL asserts that X must be of type CONS
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2020-10-23T16:17:07Z phoe: or rather, LIST
2020-10-23T16:17:35Z phoe: and then at line 5 it must be of type (NOT CONS) too
2020-10-23T16:17:41Z phoe: (AND LIST (NOT CONS)) == NULL
2020-10-23T16:17:55Z phoe: so it warns that this branch multiplies 1.0 by NIL
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2020-10-23T16:19:13Z _death: yes.. but if the inner IF actually comes from an inline function, that warning may not be so useful (not to mention it may cause compilation to fail...)
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2020-10-23T16:20:02Z phoe: is it a WARNING rather than a STYLE-WARNING?
2020-10-23T16:20:09Z _death: yes
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2020-10-23T16:20:51Z _death: one solution is to (declare (type (or cons real) x)) in the inline function
2020-10-23T16:21:40Z phoe: it still sounds like a type bug in the code though
2020-10-23T16:21:52Z _death: how come?
2020-10-23T16:21:52Z phoe: (CAR X) succeeds, hence X must be a list
2020-10-23T16:21:59Z phoe: because it succeeds in line 2
2020-10-23T16:22:10Z phoe: and later you attempt to call * on a list argument, which is a type error
2020-10-23T16:22:23Z _death: no, because NIL is never passed
2020-10-23T16:23:03Z phoe: (defun thing (x) (if (> (car x) 1.0) (if (consp x) 'it-is-a-cons (* 1.0 x)) x))
2020-10-23T16:23:23Z _death: if you never pass NIL to THING, then there is no type error
2020-10-23T16:23:55Z phoe: if you never pass NIL to thing, then (* 1.0 x) is never executed
2020-10-23T16:24:18Z phoe: and so it is unused code
2020-10-23T16:24:36Z _death: correct, but like I said, change the inner IF to (F X) and have (defsubst f (x) (if (consp x) 'it-is-a-cons (* 1.0 x)))
2020-10-23T16:24:58Z phoe: yes, you can hide this error from SBCL type inference this way
2020-10-23T16:25:09Z phoe: but making SBCL blind to it doesn't make it less of an error
2020-10-23T16:25:12Z _death: no, it doesn't hide, sbcl warns!
2020-10-23T16:25:20Z phoe: oh wait
2020-10-23T16:25:24Z phoe re-reads
2020-10-23T16:25:34Z _death: the point is that F makes sense because it expects (OR CONS REAL)
2020-10-23T16:25:51Z _death: and the code using it makes sense, because it expects CONS
2020-10-23T16:26:22Z _death: but SBCL will warn because of the dead code, because it doesn't know that the argument will always be CONS
2020-10-23T16:27:03Z _death: and because there's a layer of indirection (actually, there were several inline functions calling each other, so it was multiple layers) the warning was confusing
2020-10-23T16:32:53Z phoe: the real issue is the fact that SBCL derives the type of X in (defun f (x) (if (consp x) 'it-is-a-cons (* 1.0 x))) to be T, not (OR CONS REAL)
2020-10-23T16:32:58Z phoe: or rather, (OR CONS NUMBER)
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2020-10-23T16:34:01Z _death: I also note that sbcl doesn't warn on (> (CAR X) MAX) .. even though X may be NIL.. this is pragmatism.. but for example SBCL does warn on the result of POSITION
2020-10-23T16:34:09Z phoe: uh
2020-10-23T16:34:14Z phoe: (car nil) is well defined though
2020-10-23T16:34:25Z _death: yes, but (> NIL MAX) is not
2020-10-23T16:34:40Z phoe: oh! right
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2020-10-23T16:40:14Z phoe: possibly (optimize speed) would show more type hints though
2020-10-23T16:40:43Z phoe: well, nope
2020-10-23T16:41:27Z phoe: oh well
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2020-10-23T16:44:10Z _death: the good news is that the new assign-but-no-read warning did find a small bug in some old code :)
2020-10-23T16:44:18Z Nilby: slime doesn't seem to save repl history permanently so I wonder if anyone has my problem
2020-10-23T16:45:40Z _death: Nilby: have you seen https://github.com/vseloved/flight-recorder ? I didn't try it though
2020-10-23T16:46:16Z Nilby: death: checking it ...
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2020-10-23T16:49:07Z _death: there was also a blog post.. at the time I wonder why wouldn't a simple sqlite database suffice
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2020-10-23T16:49:47Z Nilby: That seems useful. But I don't use slime. I have 40k lines worth of REPL history. Some junk, but some magic. Everyday it grows and gets slower.
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2020-10-23T16:50:17Z Nilby: Since it searches every keystroke, I'm thinking I need to scale it.
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2020-10-23T16:51:56Z Nilby: It can already go in sqlite, but it seems like it needs tagging, and garbage collections, so I'm wondering if anyone else has such a problem.
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2020-10-23T16:54:31Z Nilby: Seem like vseloved must have had the same problem.
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2020-10-23T16:55:27Z _death: https://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.com/2018/09/ann-flight-recorder-robust-repl-logging.html
2020-10-23T16:55:43Z _death: seems it just turned into the readme
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2020-10-23T16:59:58Z Nilby: unfortunately http doesn't seem like a performant thing for history searching keystrokes, although I guess browser search bars are a counterexample
2020-10-23T17:00:41Z _death: montezuma repl history
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2020-10-23T17:04:34Z Nilby: deaht: cool, thanks. that looks like it could scale. maybe jjwiseman had the problem too.
2020-10-23T17:04:54Z Nilby: ht^T
2020-10-23T17:05:38Z _death: Nilby: heh, I just concatenated the two strings, "montezuma" and "repl history".. not sure the former comes with support for the latter ;)
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2020-10-23T17:06:26Z Nilby: but it looks hackable :)
2020-10-23T17:06:30Z _death: indeed
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2020-10-23T17:20:07Z didi`: phoe: Congratulations on your book, "The Common Lisp Condition System".
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2020-10-23T17:20:14Z phoe: didi`: thanks
2020-10-23T17:20:35Z Inline: already bought, gets delivered tomorrow i hope
2020-10-23T17:20:40Z Inline: heh
2020-10-23T17:21:01Z Inline: i gave the order months ago
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2020-10-23T17:21:17Z Inline: not sure why it was delayed that much
2020-10-23T17:21:37Z phoe: the production was finalized last week
2020-10-23T17:22:03Z phoe: back in July or so the preorder page was created
2020-10-23T17:22:12Z Inline: ah
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2020-10-23T17:24:17Z Inline: well, i thought of maybe corona so the shipping got delayed or so
2020-10-23T17:24:28Z Inline: heh
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2020-10-23T17:24:53Z phoe: that is also possible
2020-10-23T17:25:08Z phoe: I do not have full insight into the Apress book-finalizing process
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2020-10-23T17:44:02Z sjl_: mine was delivered today
2020-10-23T17:44:08Z sjl_: (ordered through amazon)
2020-10-23T17:44:40Z phoe: gasp!
2020-10-23T17:44:45Z phoe: you mean the physical paper one?
2020-10-23T17:45:03Z phoe: please give me some photos of it, my copies are still in transit
2020-10-23T17:46:09Z sjl_: phoe: https://twitter.com/stevelosh/status/1319683073420578819/photo/1
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2020-10-23T17:47:17Z phoe: sjl_: is it expected to stare more at the cadetesque keyboard than at the actual books
2020-10-23T17:47:22Z sjl_: lol
2020-10-23T17:47:27Z phoe: like, *much* much more
2020-10-23T17:47:48Z sjl_: I still need to get around to setting up the firmware on the board, and buying some wrist rests for it.
2020-10-23T17:48:11Z sjl_: If I get some custom rests on etsy I might get CAR and CDR engraved onto them
2020-10-23T17:49:16Z Inline: some kbds are fine without wrist rests
2020-10-23T17:50:09Z Inline: and i found i'd rather have a detachable numpad block
2020-10-23T17:50:45Z Inline: if i were gonna type in all day long numbers, then it would be useful .....
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2020-10-23T17:51:43Z sjl_: could get one of these https://keeb.io/collections/keyboard-pcbs/products/bdn9-rev-2-3x3-9-key-macropad-rotary-encoder-and-rgb and bind it to various inspector/debugger shortcuts for fun
2020-10-23T17:52:02Z sjl_: rotate a knob to move up/down the debugger stack or inspector stack
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2020-10-23T17:52:11Z sjl_: ... might be a little ridiculous
2020-10-23T17:52:28Z Inline: oh yeee
2020-10-23T17:52:32Z Inline: heh
2020-10-23T17:52:42Z phoe: hit KILL and LAUNCH after one another to execute ,restart-inferior-lisp
2020-10-23T17:53:31Z Inline: whaat the heeeeeck
2020-10-23T17:53:34Z Inline: 3 knobs ?
2020-10-23T17:53:35Z Inline: wooo
2020-10-23T17:53:41Z Inline: lol
2020-10-23T17:54:04Z phoe: but I think knob discussion is already borderline #lispcafe
2020-10-23T17:55:00Z sjl_: anyway yeah, I got my paper copy of your CL book today.  Already started reading Holms' book and Lisp in Small Pieces though, so it'll have to get in line, hah.
2020-10-23T17:55:34Z phoe: perfect
2020-10-23T17:55:48Z Inline: welp, i only have the 2.nd edition of Holms i think
2020-10-23T17:56:06Z Inline: and quinnecs has to wait a little more.....
2020-10-23T17:59:15Z ane: what sort of testing is run to ensure a quicklisp distribution "works" and is in releasable condition?
2020-10-23T17:59:32Z phoe: ane: it builds and compiles together on Linux amd64 SBCL
2020-10-23T17:59:50Z ane: right... each package is basically done a asdf:load-system?
2020-10-23T17:59:56Z phoe: each system
2020-10-23T18:00:09Z phoe: Quicklisp is a distribution of systems, not packages; packages mean a different thing
2020-10-23T18:00:17Z Inline: yeh
2020-10-23T18:00:29Z Inline: i just don't get what systems are
2020-10-23T18:00:52Z ane: sorry, yes system
2020-10-23T18:01:00Z dlowe: they're just names for the build program
2020-10-23T18:01:00Z phoe: a system is an ASDF thing
2020-10-23T18:01:06Z dlowe: not just asdf
2020-10-23T18:01:18Z Inline: especially the difference to module
2020-10-23T18:01:32Z phoe: well... nowadays, an ASDF thing; previously it was also for mk-defsystem and other build systems that are no longer around
2020-10-23T18:01:48Z Inline: i see mk-defsystem still referenced
2020-10-23T18:01:54Z Inline: maybe for portability
2020-10-23T18:01:57Z ane: I'm asking because folks over at GNU are building yet another package repository for emacs lisp and I was thinking of suggesting to have it do monthly/<x>ly distributions
2020-10-23T18:02:24Z ane: actually I did suggest it https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-10/msg01531.html but I haven't mentioned quiclisp yet
2020-10-23T18:02:39Z phoe: then they can do what Quicklisp does
2020-10-23T18:02:47Z ane: and well, if someone were to ask "what does quicklisp do"
2020-10-23T18:02:47Z Inline: so a module is in a package, and packages are in a system ?
2020-10-23T18:02:49Z phoe: try to build everything together and ensure no errors/warnings happen
2020-10-23T18:02:56Z ane: and then I hit a blank :-)
2020-10-23T18:03:02Z phoe: or, if warnings happen, they're style-warnings or their emacs equivalents
2020-10-23T18:03:06Z ane: yeah
2020-10-23T18:03:16Z Inline: module, a group of files
2020-10-23T18:03:24Z Inline: system, a group of packages ?
2020-10-23T18:03:30Z Inline: does that translate well ?
2020-10-23T18:03:31Z phoe: not really
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2020-10-23T18:03:38Z Inline: hmmm
2020-10-23T18:03:40Z phoe: a system is a group of files
2020-10-23T18:03:49Z ane: a package is a namespace for symbols
2020-10-23T18:03:58Z phoe: a module is a deprecated CL term that is not really used because it's too generic and because ASDF systems have taken over
2020-10-23T18:04:12Z Inline: ok
2020-10-23T18:04:35Z dlowe: module is also an asdf term :p
2020-10-23T18:04:51Z Inline: yep
2020-10-23T18:04:57Z dlowe: but *only* an asdf term
2020-10-23T18:05:01Z Inline: i've seen it in defpackage forms
2020-10-23T18:05:02Z phoe: yes, ASDF also claimed the term "module"
2020-10-23T18:05:16Z phoe: and in ASDF it can mean a subfolder relative to the .asd file
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2020-10-23T18:05:23Z phoe: sigh, the naming confusion
2020-10-23T18:05:25Z dlowe: in defpackage, the only place you see it is if someone calls a thing a module
2020-10-23T18:05:36Z dlowe: but that's a programmer decision
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2020-10-23T18:06:04Z Inline: right, when you are referring even to 1 file which is in a subfolder, sometimes the pathname stuff doesn't work or gets cumbersome or so
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2020-10-23T18:07:23Z phoe: actually pathnames and namestrings work well enough with those, or they have at least worked well enough for me
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2020-10-23T18:07:28Z ane: phoe: do you know where the scripts/programs for the quicklisp test runs etc.?
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2020-10-23T18:07:38Z Inline: problem is when you are trying to group files together from different subfolders i suppose
2020-10-23T18:07:41Z phoe: ane: Xach will know
2020-10-23T18:08:09Z Inline: then one has to combine all that stuff in one pathname, via merge-pathnames or so, not sure if that works, i'm just making that up now
2020-10-23T18:08:51Z phoe: why would you combine multiple unrelated directories in a single pathname
2020-10-23T18:09:11Z phoe: I mean you could do things like #P"foo/bar/../baz/quux.lisp" but that would be, uh, kinda pointless
2020-10-23T18:09:12Z Inline: to give the module a reference point ?
2020-10-23T18:09:55Z Inline: like to say this is your toplevel, and these are your subdirs, only these which are given explicitly etc...
2020-10-23T18:09:58Z dlowe: yeah, just because you have the flexibility to do a thing doesn't mean it's a good idea
2020-10-23T18:10:01Z dlowe: the lisp story
2020-10-23T18:10:12Z phoe: Inline: a reference point?
2020-10-23T18:10:15Z phoe: that can be absolute though
2020-10-23T18:10:21Z Inline: right
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2020-10-23T18:10:32Z phoe: like #p"/home/phoe/Projects/Lisp/phoe-toolbox/"
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2020-10-23T18:11:16Z Inline: yes, or relative, which might make things combsersome to use from the toplevel as a toplevel load thing tho
2020-10-23T18:11:23Z phoe: and then you can go (asdf:system-relative-pathname :phoe-toolbox #P"package.lisp")
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2020-10-23T18:11:34Z phoe: see how that second pathname is relative
2020-10-23T18:11:37Z Inline: cause then you have to override the relativeness ofc
2020-10-23T18:12:35Z Inline: kinda like a hint  or a protocol spec, like in saying "not thought to be used from toplevel"
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2020-10-23T18:13:58Z phoe: but ASDF knows the system-definition-pathname of :phoe-toolbox and can therefore construct a full absolute pathname
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2020-10-23T18:14:52Z Inline: yes, but suppose you wished to not use asdf for some reason
2020-10-23T18:15:59Z phoe: then you need to use pathnames
2020-10-23T18:16:08Z phoe: and provide sane *default-pathname-defaults*
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2020-10-23T18:22:38Z Inline: effectively doubling the work of asdf, because you do it twice now
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2020-10-23T18:23:32Z phoe: hey
2020-10-23T18:23:43Z phoe: it was you who said that I wished to not use asdf for some reason
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2020-10-23T18:24:17Z Inline: just for the sake of maybe isolating a system definition, which might got stray because you pasted the wrong thin in the wrong buffer, or the developer had a glitch in his/her last git push, and you are not social enough to mail them about their failings, or not willing to wait for next git push......
2020-10-23T18:24:29Z Inline: lol
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2020-10-23T18:26:45Z Inline: actually i'd not know if it would be polite or just asocial to not mail them in that case either .....
2020-10-23T18:26:52Z Inline: hahahah
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2020-10-23T18:28:17Z phoe: that's already a social problem
2020-10-23T18:28:24Z phoe: nothing that a build system can solve reliably
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2020-10-23T19:05:30Z phoe: sjl_: https://framapiaf.org/@rbd/105085659462943082
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2020-10-23T19:26:48Z loli: how does ASDF deal with breaking package changes nicely, just have a local path and grab the dependencies you suspect which might change?
2020-10-23T19:27:35Z phoe: breaking package changes?
2020-10-23T19:27:37Z phoe: what do you mean?
2020-10-23T19:28:36Z loli: say you rely on package with a function Y, and that package updates, and either Y takes different types of arguments or maybe that function was deprecated and removed, or maybe the exports got changed and now you have a shadowing conflict
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2020-10-23T19:29:15Z dlowe: you mean relying on a system?
2020-10-23T19:29:31Z dlowe: sorry to fuss about this, but they really do mean different things in lisp-land
2020-10-23T19:29:36Z phoe: loli: basically, it doesn't
2020-10-23T19:29:37Z cl-arthur: 3
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2020-10-23T19:29:43Z loli: yes I mean system, I am sorry
2020-10-23T19:29:54Z loli: I do a lot of haskell, and tend to just call them packages, due to that
2020-10-23T19:30:09Z phoe: a system might want to provide its own mechanisms to gracefully upgrade itself, but there's nothing built-in in ASDF
2020-10-23T19:30:11Z dlowe: I know, it would be a lot easier if everyone would just call the things the same
2020-10-23T19:30:19Z dlowe: but it's not gonna happen :D
2020-10-23T19:30:42Z phoe: in case of API change, there's no real way of updating clients of that API in any way
2020-10-23T19:31:17Z loli: that is a shame, I rather like haskell's LTS system of dealing with dependencies.
2020-10-23T19:32:00Z phoe: that scheme doesn't work well with the current state of Common Lisp tooling
2020-10-23T19:32:09Z phoe: that's why people rarely break stable APIs around here
2020-10-23T19:32:20Z phoe: that's e.g. why Alexandria is effectively immutable
2020-10-23T19:32:49Z dlowe: if you want to make a breaking api you can just make another library
2020-10-23T19:32:53Z dlowe: which is friendlier anyway
2020-10-23T19:33:15Z dlowe: how much anguish could have been saved if they had made Python 3 just be called Snek 1
2020-10-23T19:33:24Z Inline: lol
2020-10-23T19:33:42Z loli: they should have called it SBCL2
2020-10-23T19:33:51Z phoe: protip: they have
2020-10-23T19:33:58Z phoe: 2.0.0 came after 1.5.9
2020-10-23T19:34:01Z Inline: python was the compiler in cmucl
2020-10-23T19:34:07Z phoe: oh
2020-10-23T19:34:10Z phoe: oh god I just got the joke
2020-10-23T19:34:11Z loli: yes hence CMUCL3 or SBCL2
2020-10-23T19:34:19Z Inline: nothing todo with python2 or python3
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2020-10-23T19:35:03Z Inline: when is a python called a boa constrictor and why ?
2020-10-23T19:35:06Z Inline: lol
2020-10-23T19:35:29Z dlowe: BOA constructors are initializers for structs.
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2020-10-23T20:03:03Z sjl_: phoe: *squinting, trying to figure out how to reply to a mastodon tweet*
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2020-10-23T20:04:41Z sjl_ thinks he figured it out
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2020-10-23T20:07:23Z phoe: you did figure it out
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2020-10-23T20:22:34Z johnjay: dlowe: python3 is a good example of why you can't really fundamentally change your language or platform, esp after a long time
2020-10-23T20:22:41Z Xach: hmm, the text of the issues in the hyperspec do not appear to be in the dpans sources.
2020-10-23T20:22:44Z johnjay: they should have just waited for some more ideas and did what perl did
2020-10-23T20:22:50Z johnjay: call the new thing a new platform and a weird name
2020-10-23T20:22:51Z Xach: where are the issues from?
2020-10-23T20:23:18Z johnjay: ,rakudo
2020-10-23T20:23:28Z johnjay: ,raku
2020-10-23T20:23:34Z johnjay: oh wrong channel
2020-10-23T20:23:37Z aeth: johnjay: Perl 6 was the only larger failure than Python 3 as far as language transitions go. At least people mostly wound up on Python 3 eventually
2020-10-23T20:23:55Z johnjay: did they? it seems to be a 50/50 split
2020-10-23T20:24:08Z johnjay: i would have just announced ok, python2 receive 0 support or update now
2020-10-23T20:24:17Z johnjay: if you want that go with Snake or Anaconda or something
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2020-10-23T20:25:32Z aeth: johnjay: People procrastinated the 2->3 transition for over a decade until the deadline, early this year. Now most things are finally on Python 3, although Python probably lost a lot of language momentum
2020-10-23T20:25:55Z johnjay: yeah they should have done it early on to minimize the damage
2020-10-23T20:26:18Z johnjay: you can't just fundamentally change language features decade in that break a lot of existing code and not expect resistance to that
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2020-10-23T20:26:53Z johnjay: also ubuntu comes with python 2 as the default i thought
2020-10-23T20:27:00Z aeth: What they should've done is let the interpreter run both flavors of the language.
2020-10-23T20:27:07Z johnjay: at least when i type python i usually expect to get python2
2020-10-23T20:27:19Z aeth: Ubuntu probably transitioned a year or so ago. Fedora did, too.
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2020-10-23T20:27:50Z aeth: "python" brings up python3, but it did so no earlier than 2019 or so. "python2" still exists because not everything has migrated.
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2020-10-23T20:29:21Z Xach: Friends, let is talk of Lisp.
2020-10-23T20:29:41Z Xach: Specifically, the text of the CL spec issues! Is it hidden away on the old xerox ftp site somewhere?
2020-10-23T20:30:42Z phoe: possibly, yes
2020-10-23T20:30:56Z phoe: I remember that kmp assembled those on his own since these weren't a part of the formal standard
2020-10-23T20:31:14Z edgar-rft: Xach: AFAIK the code examples and the "issues" pages of CLHS are from Kent pitman private collections.
2020-10-23T20:31:58Z edgar-rft: it' explained on the CLHS "Copyright" page
2020-10-23T20:32:04Z Xach: edgar-rft: thanks.
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2020-10-23T20:34:13Z edgar-rft: Xach: see "Additional Disclaimers" at the bottom of -> http://clhs.lisp.se/Front/Help.htm#Legal
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2020-10-23T21:23:54Z dbotton: Does anyone know of a Pascal to Lisp translator (C to lisp would also work)? something foss
2020-10-23T21:25:09Z phoe: translator?... kinda not, I think
2020-10-23T21:25:24Z phoe: these languages are very different and it would be hard to just translate one unto the other
2020-10-23T21:26:12Z dbotton: more of a compiler than translator but very doable
2020-10-23T21:26:46Z dbotton: so perhaps should clarify, I don't care of lisp would be readable per se
2020-10-23T21:26:59Z dbotton: would be nice of course
2020-10-23T21:27:25Z dbotton: the idea is CL as the target "computer"
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2020-10-23T21:27:53Z dbotton: would even be interested in Dylan targeting CL as the backend
2020-10-23T21:28:00Z phoe: it's doable, I just don't know if it's ben done
2020-10-23T21:28:01Z phoe: been*
2020-10-23T21:28:31Z dbotton: there is a paper on a PtoL but not publicly on net, ie some one has done before
2020-10-23T21:31:59Z dbotton: I saw that in Racket there was a lib for doing non-lisp DSLs, so perhaps something like that?
2020-10-23T21:33:02Z phoe: dbotton: https://github.com/y2q-actionman/with-c-syntax
2020-10-23T21:33:16Z phoe: provided only as inspiration, please don't use it in actual code
2020-10-23T21:34:44Z dbotton: https://github.com/akapav/js
2020-10-23T21:36:04Z dbotton: phoe thanks that also helps, thanks
2020-10-23T21:42:06Z pve: dbotton: I'm doing Smalltalk to CL, mostly just for fun
2020-10-23T21:42:11Z dbotton: phoe while I do not plan on using it for my code, I want to allow certain user extensions to a project (a dsl) and I want to offer a more familiar look and feel to those refusing to use a lisp like dsl
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2020-10-23T21:42:30Z phoe: dbotton: you could try with-c-syntax to parse existing snippets of c-like code then
2020-10-23T21:42:40Z phoe: bam, you have Lisp forms that you can evaluate
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2020-10-23T21:44:56Z dbotton: not really looking to use it as a learning tool (I have already seen how wide the differences are to be useful beyond teaching someone to read a code example or two a direct translation)
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2020-10-23T22:01:12Z _death: you can check out CGOL or, for C to CL, Vacietis
2020-10-23T22:01:44Z dbotton: was just now looking at Vacietis, thanks
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2020-10-23T23:58:29Z Xach: facebook informs me that the inebriated late-night amsterdam chip-shop run that led to sharplispers was 9 years ago today
2020-10-23T23:58:43Z Xach: a fine eclm it was
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2020-10-24T00:11:16Z dlowe: Not sure about a compiler but I bet I could write a C interpreter.
2020-10-24T00:11:50Z dlowe: The biggest hurdle would be parsing the crazypants POSIX header files.
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2020-10-24T00:35:01Z aeth: C compilers are (apparently; I don't speak from experience) easy to write. The hard part is optimizing. Challenge mode is supporting C++.
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2020-10-24T00:37:13Z aeth: C's probably one of the easiest languages to write compilers for because people manage to write dozens of them *in C itself*. I'd hate to have to try to implement a better language in C itself. I wouldn't be surprised if you could write a non-optimizing one in CL in a few thousand lines.
2020-10-24T00:38:16Z sm2n: yeah, I know multiple c compilers written in c, in under 20k or so loc
2020-10-24T00:38:38Z sm2n: which is amazing considering C's expressiveness (well, lack thereof)
2020-10-24T00:39:00Z aeth: yeah
2020-10-24T00:39:19Z aeth: just by the rule-of-thumb divide-by-10, that means aim for 2kloc in CL
2020-10-24T00:39:34Z aeth: almost anyone here would be able to write that, if true
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2020-10-24T00:43:21Z aeth: My guess is that the hardest part would be the parser because the CL community tends to not care about parsers (at least comparatively speaking).
2020-10-24T00:43:37Z aeth: no need to parse when your DSL is just s-expressions inside of .lisp files...
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2020-10-24T01:40:33Z ldbeth: good morning everyone
2020-10-24T01:40:38Z Oladon: Morning ldbeth!
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2020-10-24T03:25:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-24T04:22:10Z aaaaaa: beach: good!
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2020-10-24T04:53:57Z jedii: to make scalable web apps in lisp do I need a sql database?
2020-10-24T04:54:46Z jedii: would it come down to something like postgresql SBCL postmordern hunchentoot    vs postgresql+tcl+naviserver
2020-10-24T04:55:34Z jedii: or could I use say manardb+SBCL+hunchentoot
2020-10-24T04:56:36Z jedii: Paul grahm talks of forking a lisp interpreter for each web client.......then using files on netapp and justlisp
2020-10-24T04:56:44Z jedii: hmm
2020-10-24T04:56:49Z no-defun-allowed: The most scalable thing would probably be to keep everything in memory, which is trivial.
2020-10-24T04:57:10Z jedii: I would do that just with SBCL/
2020-10-24T04:57:11Z jedii: ?
2020-10-24T04:57:14Z no-defun-allowed: When that doesn't work, then you could use a SQL database or object persistence library like manardb, sure.
2020-10-24T04:57:23Z no-defun-allowed: Yes.
2020-10-24T04:57:49Z jedii: I talked to one friend one time and he simply kept clients 1-10 on box 1  and 11-20 on box 2
2020-10-24T04:57:56Z jedii: and it worked awesomely
2020-10-24T04:58:04Z jedii: but other peolpe bitched
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2020-10-24T04:58:14Z jedii: oh what if you lose box 2
2020-10-24T04:58:16Z jedii: or some bs
2020-10-24T04:58:40Z jedii: I fear common lisp is complex and I might not be able to learn it well.........
2020-10-24T04:58:48Z jedii: I am not a very experienced programmer
2020-10-24T04:59:18Z no-defun-allowed: Most Lisp web servers (well, Hunchentoot and Woo) will split up work between multiple threads.
2020-10-24T04:59:43Z no-defun-allowed: I would leave scaling between machines for later, and if you have many users or very demanding uses.
2020-10-24T04:59:58Z jedii: any tips on learning lisp?
2020-10-24T05:01:06Z no-defun-allowed: Nothing specific to Lisp really.
2020-10-24T05:03:57Z jedii: thank you good night
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2020-10-24T05:17:48Z aeth: I don't think Paul Graham's 1999 CLISP web architecture is at all relevant for 2020 probably-SBCL-but-maybe-CCL web architecture
2020-10-24T05:18:37Z aeth: a separate SBCL for each web client would eat so much RAM...
2020-10-24T05:18:58Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, one does not need to fork when threads are supported by the operating system and Lisp implementation.
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2020-10-24T09:20:06Z phoe: hmmmm
2020-10-24T09:20:14Z phoe: it's been a while without an Online Lisp Meeting
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2020-10-24T09:22:38Z beach: phoe: I am not ready for the next one.  Sorry!
2020-10-24T09:22:53Z phoe: beach: no problem! you don't have to be there all the time :D
2020-10-24T09:23:10Z beach: I know.  Just saying.
2020-10-24T09:23:20Z phoe: yes - thank you for the videos so far
2020-10-24T09:23:32Z phoe: you're already the record-breaker with regard to the number of published OLM videos
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2020-10-24T09:25:20Z beach: phoe: Thanks.  That takes a bit of the pressure off. :)
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2020-10-24T09:29:26Z iissaacc: is there any way to quickly get the version of a symbol with the package prefix attached?
2020-10-24T09:29:35Z phoe: iissaacc: what do you mean, version of a symbol?
2020-10-24T09:29:42Z phoe: you mean its string representation?
2020-10-24T09:29:57Z iissaacc: like '+ versus 'common-lisp:+
2020-10-24T09:30:13Z phoe: why do you want it quoted
2020-10-24T09:30:18Z phoe: where do you want to return it from
2020-10-24T09:30:21Z beach: iissaacc: In which situation.  I.e. what do you mean by "get"?
2020-10-24T09:30:22Z phoe: I'm confused
2020-10-24T09:30:41Z phoe: the value of '+ depends on which package you are in
2020-10-24T09:31:19Z phoe: so you cannot always tell from outside which package the symbol + is from, unless you also know the current package
2020-10-24T09:32:28Z iissaacc: well the problem i have is i convert a symbol to its string representation. Then when it gets converted back into a symbol to be used in funcall it happens in another package, so i get an error saying the function is undefined
2020-10-24T09:33:02Z phoe: (let ((package (find-package :keyword))) (prin1-to-string symbol))
2020-10-24T09:33:29Z phoe: uh I mean
2020-10-24T09:33:33Z phoe: (let ((*package* (find-package :keyword))) (prin1-to-string symbol))
2020-10-24T09:38:16Z iissaacc: thats perfect thanks man
2020-10-24T09:38:37Z iissaacc: sorry about my confusing explanation
2020-10-24T09:38:56Z phoe: you're passing symbols through the network, or something?
2020-10-24T09:39:19Z phoe: or rather, the printed representations of those symbols through the network
2020-10-24T09:39:21Z iissaacc: yeah
2020-10-24T09:39:27Z phoe: yes, I assumed as much
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2020-10-24T09:40:33Z phoe: the KEYWORD package is very nice for this because keywords are always printed with the preceding colon (even in package KEYWORD) and because it uses no other package, hence all non-keyword symbols are printed with their package name
2020-10-24T09:40:50Z iissaacc: ahhh
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2020-10-24T09:41:17Z iissaacc: i wonder, can you (defun :somekeyword () (blah blah))
2020-10-24T09:41:34Z phoe: you can but shouldn't in general
2020-10-24T09:41:54Z phoe: keywords are a singular namespace, and you don't usually want to collide with other people's functions
2020-10-24T09:41:59Z phoe: and also LispWorks doesn't let you do that
2020-10-24T09:42:11Z iissaacc:  right
2020-10-24T09:42:33Z iissaacc: thanks for that tip, very useful
2020-10-24T09:42:45Z phoe: pass your thanks to Xach, I think it was him who taught me that
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2020-10-24T12:23:00Z Xach: hey now
2020-10-24T12:23:26Z Xach: i think it is good and fine to define keyword-named functions and i think lispworks is being inconsiderate.
2020-10-24T12:24:01Z Xach: i think keyword-named functions should never appear in libraries or anything that is not a self-contained universe - so best used in your init files to define personal repl conveniences.
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2020-10-24T12:38:38Z daphnis: i'm trying to load the source code for "Practical Common Lisp" in slime/sbcl, but am told "don't know how to REQUIRE ASERVE" ..
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2020-10-24T12:39:27Z phoe: (ql:quickload :aserve)
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2020-10-24T12:48:35Z daphnis: phoe: thanks.  i get a compile-file-error though.
2020-10-24T12:49:31Z phoe: daphnis: post the error on https://plaster.tymoon.eu/
2020-10-24T12:49:39Z phoe: not the ASDF compile-file-error though, the actual error should be printed in the repl
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2020-10-24T12:49:46Z phoe: somewhere above the ASDF complaint
2020-10-24T12:51:40Z Xach: hmmm
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2020-10-24T12:52:10Z Xach: to make it easier to find quicklisp dist-building errors, i've made some filtering that highlights only the fatal ERROR and WARNING parts from the build log.
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2020-10-24T12:52:42Z Xach: i wonder if it would be useful to make that easily runnable by anyone so they can quickly get to the important output
2020-10-24T12:52:54Z phoe: yes please
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2020-10-24T12:54:12Z daphnis: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2089#2089
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2020-10-24T12:54:37Z phoe: huh, that is an ironclad error
2020-10-24T12:54:44Z phoe: what is your SBCL version?
2020-10-24T12:54:50Z phoe: also, (ql:update-all-dists)
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2020-10-24T12:54:58Z Xach: that ironclad is so old, it has a very long beard
2020-10-24T12:55:07Z daphnis: 2.0.8
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2020-10-24T12:55:34Z Xach: (ql:update-dist "quicklisp") might fix the ironclad issue
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2020-10-24T12:56:24Z daphnis: aha.  thanks, that seems to work.
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2020-10-24T13:10:31Z drl: Why does (format t "~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~%~a~%~%~a: " "PRAYER Ver. 1.1 MAIN MENU" "<A>dd-records <E>dit-records <P>ray <R>eports <Enter>-exit") print both strings at the repl, but after using save-lisp-and die to make a stand-alone executable only the first string prints?
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2020-10-24T13:12:00Z _death: likely need to force-output
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2020-10-24T13:12:22Z _death: also, ~10% is a thing
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2020-10-24T13:15:54Z drl: _death, force how? Also, what do you mean by "~10% is a thing"?
2020-10-24T13:16:23Z _death: clhs force-output
2020-10-24T13:16:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm
2020-10-24T13:16:32Z _death: (format t "~10%Hi~%")
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2020-10-24T13:18:46Z drl: _death, thank you.
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2020-10-24T13:41:11Z _death: interesting that FORMAT lacks a directive to clear/force/finish output.. in my OUT macro I added an (:fo [:wait boolean]) operator (no clear operator though.. never used it)
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2020-10-24T13:43:04Z _death: I guess in FORMAT it would've been a "waste of a character" or something.. since it's not often you want to force/finish in the middle of output
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2020-10-24T14:21:19Z ane: Xach: what sort of build tests are run for quicklisp distributions? how are cyclic dependencies or dependencies towards other QL packages handled for a single system?
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2020-10-24T14:25:52Z phoe: ane: cyclic dependencies are detected on ASDF level, Quicklisp has nothing to do with that
2020-10-24T14:26:13Z phoe: the ASDF dependency graph is a DAG
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2020-10-24T14:46:13Z ane: oh right, duh; asdf does this
2020-10-24T14:46:35Z ane: I mean at some point it's just a directory with 1500 packages in ASDF's load path
2020-10-24T14:46:40Z ane: and you can get a DAG out of everything
2020-10-24T14:46:45Z ane: systems, not packages
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2020-10-24T14:51:33Z phoe: yes
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2020-10-24T15:09:49Z Xach: ane: i build each system and record what it loads, and use that to build a static index of what to load
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2020-10-24T16:57:12Z yk42bb: did you know that Common Lisp powers grammarly? vseloved worked on it with https://github.com/vseloved/cl-nlp
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2020-10-24T18:37:09Z phoe: yes
2020-10-24T18:37:27Z phoe: https://www.grammarly.com/blog/engineering/running-lisp-in-production/ is a famous blogpost by vseloved
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2020-10-24T18:52:50Z phoe: Xach: (setf *handle-warn-on-redefinition* nil)
2020-10-24T18:53:00Z phoe: on Lispworks, this allows (defun :foo () 42) (:foo)
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2020-10-24T19:20:40Z flip214: 0
2020-10-24T19:21:10Z phoe: (1+ *)
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2020-10-24T19:22:52Z flip214: I'd have hoped for an (expt 1 *) at least
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2020-10-24T20:10:47Z Xach: phoe: i am subscribed!
2020-10-24T20:12:15Z phoe: Xach: oh! okay
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2020-10-25T04:11:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-10-25T04:22:14Z cer0: good night from where i am
2020-10-25T04:24:56Z beach: cer0: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-10-25T04:25:44Z cer0: beach: yeah, kinda new to the channel and to the land lisp 🤯️
2020-10-25T04:25:56Z beach: Great!  Welcome!
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2020-10-25T04:26:25Z beach: So is the plan to learn Common Lisp?
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2020-10-25T04:27:46Z cer0: Thanks, actually, i'm about to finish reading the little schemer (:
2020-10-25T04:28:08Z beach: Oh!  This is not the right channel then, I am sorry to say.
2020-10-25T04:28:59Z cer0: yeah ): ik, i'm starting with land of lisp, but my progress it's a little bit slow with that one.
2020-10-25T04:29:10Z beach: Ah, OK.
2020-10-25T04:29:13Z cer0: really interesting book tho
2020-10-25T04:29:29Z beach: For people who have programmed before, we also recommend PCL.
2020-10-25T04:29:38Z beach: minion: Please tell cer0 about PCL.
2020-10-25T04:29:40Z minion: cer0: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2020-10-25T04:30:18Z cer0: do you use cl at work  or somethig?
2020-10-25T04:30:26Z beach: Me?
2020-10-25T04:30:28Z cer0: thanks, minion
2020-10-25T04:30:35Z beach: minion: Thanks!
2020-10-25T04:30:35Z minion: np
2020-10-25T04:30:38Z beach: Sort of, yes.
2020-10-25T04:30:40Z cer0: anyone
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2020-10-25T04:31:13Z cer0: cool, what for? if you donn't mind sharing
2020-10-25T04:31:50Z beach: I do research in programming-language implementation, and Common Lisp is both my target and my tool.
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2020-10-25T04:32:27Z beach: minion: Please tell cer0 about SICL.
2020-10-25T04:32:27Z minion: cer0: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2020-10-25T04:35:28Z cer0: beach:  oh, so is this what you're working on? :o
2020-10-25T04:35:55Z beach: Yes, among other things.
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2020-10-25T04:42:17Z cer0: beach: that's cool, really cool. sorry i didn't recognized you, you seem to be really important among the lisp community ( :
2020-10-25T04:42:42Z beach: Thanks  I don't think of myself that way, but I suppose some people do.
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2020-10-25T04:44:46Z cer0: well, writing a re-implementation of cl must not be a easy task, and seems a lot of people found it useful
2020-10-25T04:45:51Z beach: Sure.  There is no great point in doing only easy stuff.  Not for a researcher anyway.
2020-10-25T04:46:22Z cer0: I barely wrote a lisp once, ahah, like, the last year i tried, but, my C skills are so bad. I was following this... buildyourownlisp.com
2020-10-25T04:46:45Z cer0: how did you ended up doing research?
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2020-10-25T04:48:51Z beach: After my Masters degree, I worked in industry for a few years, and I noticed how insufficient the level of knowledge was in the developers.  In fact, insufficiently low for the task at hand.  So I quit and did a PhD.  The rest is the "traditional" career path.
2020-10-25T04:49:22Z beach: Apparently, the situation is pretty much the same in the industry today.
2020-10-25T04:50:39Z beach: So, I looked at the first page of buildyourownlisp.com, and I am still amused by the fact that it is often assumed that you need a lower-level language in order to build a Lisp system.
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2020-10-25T04:53:20Z no-defun-allowed: beach: I would highly advise against reading any of buildyourownlisp.
2020-10-25T04:53:37Z beach: Heh, OK.  Good to know.  Why is that?
2020-10-25T04:53:54Z no-defun-allowed: Legend has it #c said the code was terrible, and it manages to screw up evaluation and scoping in terrible ways.
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2020-10-25T04:54:36Z beach: I see.
2020-10-25T04:54:56Z no-defun-allowed: It uses something...sort of like fexprs in place of macros, but it wouldn't work with lexical scoping as there is no environment passed through.
2020-10-25T04:54:58Z beach: So both the C and the resulting Lisp code are bad.
2020-10-25T04:55:14Z beach: Wow, that does sound bad.
2020-10-25T04:55:22Z cer0: :O
2020-10-25T04:55:22Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, and LIST doesn't evaluate its arguments, leaving CAR and CDR to do that!
2020-10-25T04:55:39Z beach: Oh dear!
2020-10-25T04:55:49Z beach: Who is the author of that stuff?
2020-10-25T04:55:49Z cer0: good thing i never fished it :s
2020-10-25T04:56:05Z no-defun-allowed: The introduction says these changes are merely "different", and we're all old grimpy farts for complaining.
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2020-10-25T04:57:02Z no-defun-allowed: We researched in #lispcafe, from memory someone that did a PhD in computer graphics, and works in game development.
2020-10-25T04:57:23Z beach: Let's hope that's not a trend. :)
2020-10-25T04:58:32Z no-defun-allowed: *grumpy rather. My phone felt like autocorrecting this morning, but not now.
2020-10-25T04:59:12Z beach: Sounds like a brilliant example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
2020-10-25T04:59:15Z ck_: implementing a "lisp" and failing isn't uncommon I would say
2020-10-25T04:59:32Z no-defun-allowed: One should be terrified by a book that introduces macros before variables and functions.
2020-10-25T04:59:36Z ck_: while advertising the result as great, too
2020-10-25T04:59:49Z beach: ck_: But this one seems different.  Apparently, the person feels successful.
2020-10-25T04:59:58Z beach: Ah, yes.
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2020-10-25T05:00:31Z no-defun-allowed: Well, he may be in computer graphics, and hopefully not while using C for it.
2020-10-25T05:01:49Z beach: cer0: Do you know some other programming languages already?
2020-10-25T05:01:55Z no-defun-allowed: (See http://buildyourownlisp.com/chapter15_standard_library#conditional_functions for CAR evaluating the CAR of its argument.)
2020-10-25T05:02:49Z cer0: beach: basic python, ruby and medium/mediocre bash ):
2020-10-25T05:04:13Z cer0: tbh when i started with python and encountered Fibonacci recursive function my brain couldn't handle it, but now, i'm really comfortable with recursion (:
2020-10-25T05:04:32Z no-defun-allowed: If I could suggest one thing, it's to hold off writing an implementation of a (small) Lisp before writing some non-trivial code in it, because then you'll have an intuition for what's going on when you write the implementation and test it.
2020-10-25T05:05:24Z beach: cer0: Great!  Recursion is not used much in Common Lisp, and certainly not for linear structures.  It is mainly used for things like trees, where the depth is limited, and the alternative would make the code incomprehensible.
2020-10-25T05:05:59Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Sounds like good advice.
2020-10-25T05:06:52Z cer0: no-defun-allowed: thanks for the tip, i didn't knew it wasn't a good material for starting with cl or lisp in general.
2020-10-25T05:07:14Z beach: Yeah, good to know.
2020-10-25T05:07:27Z no-defun-allowed: I wrote a crappy compiler about two months in, because I was convinced Lisp implementations didn't compile as they don't dump images like batch compilers.
2020-10-25T05:08:37Z beach: You mean you wrote a compiler because you didn't think they existed already?
2020-10-25T05:08:55Z cer0: like, 4 years someone told me about lisp, and i tried to find a book or something to find out what it was, i guess i installed clisp, but that was it, my english reading skills weren't really good at that time, so, i ended up not reading the book, but i always feel like i wanted to learn lisp.
2020-10-25T05:09:06Z no-defun-allowed: Yes. And it was awful in many ways I don't feel like saying.
2020-10-25T05:09:28Z Blukunfando likes the picture of the library in that page.
2020-10-25T05:09:56Z beach: It is a common thing to confuse on the one hand interactive/batch and on the other hand interpreted/compiled.
2020-10-25T05:13:42Z beach: That's what was so strange about working in industry.  There are all those professional developers who have completely insufficient knowledge about basic software techniques.
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2020-10-25T05:15:07Z cer0: Oh. I see, do you recommend a book for learning that?
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2020-10-25T05:16:11Z no-defun-allowed: I would contradict what I said about getting a feel for the language if I suggested you read a compiler book now.
2020-10-25T05:16:18Z beach: minion: Please tell cer0 about LiSP.
2020-10-25T05:16:18Z minion: cer0: please look at LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. <http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html>
2020-10-25T05:17:02Z beach: But yeah, maybe put that off for now.
2020-10-25T05:17:49Z beach: cer0: But when you get around to it, it's a great book.  And the English translation is an improvement on the French original :)
2020-10-25T05:18:01Z beach: They must have had an excellent translator.
2020-10-25T05:18:31Z beach: Though apparently, the author then wrote a new version of the book (also in French), that has not been translated into English.
2020-10-25T05:18:52Z no-defun-allowed: Now I work with two compilers: one compiling a Lisp-1 to an abstract machine I made, and the SICL compiler which I will use to compile Common Lisp to the Java virtual machine.
2020-10-25T05:19:02Z cer0: Sure. Thank you, I'll share this links with the people I know happen to like CL. (:
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2020-10-25T05:20:54Z cer0: Lisp, in general.
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2020-10-25T05:22:04Z no-defun-allowed: Compiler hacking is quite fun, but it makes a lot more sense when you know what you would need to host the language, and how to build that from the features your target provides if you don't control that.
2020-10-25T05:24:13Z cer0: Well, It's getting late, see you around beach , no-defun-allowed , thanks for the information. I'll stay away from that buildyourownlisp page. (:
2020-10-25T05:24:27Z beach: Take care!
2020-10-25T05:24:29Z no-defun-allowed: Take care.
2020-10-25T05:24:39Z cer0: Same, be safe!
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2020-10-25T05:28:26Z no-defun-allowed: Also, to be honest, I think it's silly the title insists it's "your" Lisp when the code you write is mostly copied verbatim from the book, and the rest are from fairly close-ended questions.
2020-10-25T05:30:00Z no-defun-allowed: "and the rest is from answering fairly close-ended questions".
2020-10-25T05:31:23Z no-defun-allowed: But I find it too easy to complain, so I'll just say that the last two chapters of SICP and all of LiSP is a much better resource. My abstract machine is quite similar to that of chapter 5 of SICP.
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2020-10-25T05:41:34Z beach: Good advice.
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2020-10-25T07:39:43Z MichaelRaskin: no-defun-allowed: isn't it a pun on choose your own adventure style books?
2020-10-25T07:40:11Z no-defun-allowed: MichaelRaskin: There's nothing to choose from though.
2020-10-25T07:40:39Z no-defun-allowed: It may be, but it's pretty misleading.
2020-10-25T07:41:30Z MichaelRaskin: «answering a few questions with enumerated options» is exactly how choose your own adventure goes, it is a book with forks that re-converge anyway
2020-10-25T07:42:56Z no-defun-allowed: I would have to check how the "choose your own adventure" books I read when I was younger go, but there is basically one option for each question.
2020-10-25T07:44:25Z MichaelRaskin: OK, maybe the references I have seen, with forks and merges, were references to the best of class options
2020-10-25T07:45:06Z no-defun-allowed: And it's intended to be read linearly, so I still don't get it. But I'd rather not discuss it, because it depresses me that the book may have seen some success.
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2020-10-25T08:13:38Z daphnis: i get a warning from (if (boundp 'foo) foo bar)  is this somehow bad?
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2020-10-25T08:14:19Z beach: Sort of.
2020-10-25T08:14:37Z beach: The compiler can't know that you are testing whether FOO is bound before using it.
2020-10-25T08:14:50Z beach: Is FOO a special variable?
2020-10-25T08:16:51Z beach: daphnis: Are you still there?
2020-10-25T08:17:08Z daphnis: don't know what a special var is, but i guess not
2020-10-25T08:17:12Z beach: daphnis: If FOO is a special variable, it is badly named.  It should have earmuffs on it.
2020-10-25T08:17:26Z beach: If it is a lexical variable, then you can't test it with BOUNDP.
2020-10-25T08:17:38Z beach: clhs boundp
2020-10-25T08:17:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_boundp.htm
2020-10-25T08:17:39Z daphnis: it's made by loop
2020-10-25T08:17:59Z beach: Then you can't test it with BOUNDP.
2020-10-25T08:18:20Z daphnis: i have a macrolet macro that i want to use in- and outside a certain loop
2020-10-25T08:18:38Z daphnis: if inside, i want to use a loop var, otherwise something else
2020-10-25T08:19:07Z MichaelRaskin: Loop is also written by you?
2020-10-25T08:19:09Z beach: That sounds like a very strange design.
2020-10-25T08:19:21Z daphnis: yes
2020-10-25T08:19:42Z MichaelRaskin: You could macrolet something right around the loop, then let a macro check the presence of this macrolet and decide before expansion, not in runtime
2020-10-25T08:20:56Z MichaelRaskin: Or you could just save the external value into a different name using «with», and use the same name for the loop variable as you use outside
2020-10-25T08:21:07Z MichaelRaskin: Which is way less magic
2020-10-25T08:21:54Z daphnis: thanks!
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2020-10-25T08:41:58Z daphnis: MichaelRaskin: what's "with"?  i used let.
2020-10-25T08:43:16Z MichaelRaskin: Loop has many keywords
2020-10-25T08:43:29Z MichaelRaskin: You probably use let, but there is also with to bind something once
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2020-10-25T08:48:07Z daphnis: MichaelRaskin: ah, a loop keyword.
2020-10-25T08:48:14Z jackdaniel: a precise phrasing would be loop has many loop keywords
2020-10-25T08:48:20Z jackdaniel: because loop keyword is not a keyword :-)
2020-10-25T08:48:43Z MichaelRaskin: I actually typically write them as keywords, though
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2020-10-25T08:59:21Z aeth: yeah... most syntax highlighters highlight keywords in a special way, so LOOP's keywords make sense as keywords, at least if you don't expect syntax highlighters to support LOOP as a special case
2020-10-25T08:59:40Z aeth: they also stand out more in one-liners (e.g. for IRC)
2020-10-25T09:00:44Z jackdaniel: I don't think that code highlighting as it is now is very useful
2020-10-25T09:00:56Z jackdaniel: I mean -- I know that top-level defun defines a function, it doesn't need to be blue ;)
2020-10-25T09:01:08Z beach: aeth: That begs the question; why do you want LOOP keywords to be highlighted?
2020-10-25T09:01:29Z beach: ... or Common Lisp keywords as well for that matter.
2020-10-25T09:01:37Z aeth: mainly for when :for clauses get really complicated
2020-10-25T09:01:43Z jackdaniel: one could argue, that trivial highlight of variables that are not lexical in the scope of a function would be far more useful
2020-10-25T09:02:06Z jackdaniel: however *foo* convention kind of solves that
2020-10-25T09:02:26Z beach: Yes, there are so many more useful ways of highlighting.  But Emacs can't handle those ways in general.
2020-10-25T09:03:05Z beach: jackdaniel: It would be useful to highlight precisely when earmuffs are not used.
2020-10-25T09:03:10Z jackdaniel: right. my point is that syntax highlight is not useful for someone who knows the syntax, and for those who don't know it it won't help much
2020-10-25T09:03:18Z jackdaniel: yes
2020-10-25T09:04:20Z aeth: jackdaniel: maybe not useful for you, but it helps me visually distinguish between the parts of a long, complicated :for... which seems to happen all of the time in my LOOPs
2020-10-25T09:04:22Z jackdaniel: another useful thing (but only as an opt-in mode) would be marking how new the code is
2020-10-25T09:04:28Z aeth: even without the highlighting, the : helps, of course
2020-10-25T09:04:30Z jackdaniel: it is quite common that new additions/modifications are more error prone
2020-10-25T09:05:08Z MichaelRaskin: Or the old stuff has its bugs already worked around elsewhere…
2020-10-25T09:05:15Z jackdaniel: i.e green code is >1y, red code was modified yesterday, and a gradient in between
2020-10-25T09:05:18Z beach: aeth: I would work on those complicated FOR clauses if I were you.
2020-10-25T09:05:38Z aeth: They would be even more complicated if LOOP supported multiple values. :-)
2020-10-25T09:05:46Z jackdaniel: MichaelRaskin: sure, my point is that you have a visual marker what could have caused a regression you are investigating
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2020-10-25T09:06:24Z jackdaniel: (not necessarily because the new code is wrong, it might be that it has revealed undetected defect, still it is a useful clue)
2020-10-25T09:06:59Z MichaelRaskin: Yeah, sure. And also safer to fix than the old code
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2020-10-25T09:08:51Z aeth: jackdaniel: oh, that's actually really easy, if you define "new" in terms of the git (or other) repository's data. I wouldn't be surprised if someone has already done that. It saves a step over something like magit-diff if you only care about the new half of the diff
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2020-10-25T09:09:12Z aeth: And in general, it's not too different from a simplified blame
2020-10-25T09:09:48Z jackdaniel: "that's actually really easy" are famous last words of programmers who died in pits of despair
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2020-10-25T09:10:07Z aeth: jackdaniel: "easy" in the Pythonic sense of "someone probably already wrote it" :-)
2020-10-25T09:11:05Z jackdaniel: either way, that's beside the point. I'm only arguing that color is very easy for the eye, so it is a waste to use it for syntax highlight
2020-10-25T09:11:33Z aeth: it's very similar to what magit-blame does
2020-10-25T09:13:11Z aeth: jackdaniel: one advantage of syntax highlighting is that you can instantly catch certain typos, especially if you have a string or block comment that's not properly closed (assuming the syntax highlighter understands the full string and comment syntax of the language)
2020-10-25T09:13:20Z aeth: It certainly can be overdone for other things, though.
2020-10-25T09:13:45Z aeth: Probably most other things...
2020-10-25T09:14:10Z aeth: Some syntax highlighters highlight almost everything
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2020-10-25T09:14:28Z jackdaniel: mistyped things could be highlighted instead, or underlined
2020-10-25T09:14:42Z MichaelRaskin: Some people just like the rainbow!
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2020-10-25T09:14:51Z aeth: how does the editor know what part should be in the string more than you know?
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2020-10-25T09:15:07Z jackdaniel has voiced his opinion and dives back into pits of despair, because he is working on something what is actually really easy ;] ciao
2020-10-25T09:15:44Z Nilby: for me, colors are so I can scroll 110 km/h and barely read and still know what's up
2020-10-25T09:15:58Z aeth: or zoom out a lot and still see the comments
2020-10-25T09:16:11Z aeth: if you pick a nice color for your comments, it looks really cool
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2020-10-25T09:20:26Z beach: Nilby: But we are discussion precisely the best way to show the user "what's up".
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2020-10-25T09:22:55Z MichaelRaskin: beach: the difference is that you assume the information from the text is easily available and Nilby wants the usecase when the colours are the only information
2020-10-25T09:24:00Z Nilby: I guess I only need a vauge idea, so coarse syntactic coloring is okay. If I need to really know, I'll slow down and read. I've tried doing the subtle shade thing to convey more precice info, but I usually don't see it.
2020-10-25T09:24:21Z aeth: if you really like colors at a glance... s-expressions probably make it easy to color entire expressions
2020-10-25T09:24:32Z aeth: defmethod? light blue. defclass? light green. defun? dark blue. etc.
2020-10-25T09:26:26Z aeth: maybe s-expression-aware highlighting could be the "killer app" of an Emacs competitor for CL programming
2020-10-25T09:26:38Z aeth: you could define your own highlighting rules for a macro
2020-10-25T09:26:41Z Nilby: also, sometimes I the environment only gives me 16 colors to use
2020-10-25T09:27:14Z aeth: Yeah, that's the real problem. Terminals don't offer you many colors, and they're usually a pretty bad selection (which could remove some colors just because of the combinations not going together)
2020-10-25T09:27:31Z aeth: That's one of the main reasons I use graphical Emacs
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2020-10-25T09:33:32Z Nilby: woe be upon my terminal colors when I try to run on windows, phones, and barren servers
2020-10-25T09:35:14Z aeth: I use a dozen different terminals so I'm constantly fighting colors.
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2020-10-25T10:18:59Z daphnis: how do i make *posix-argv* available to other packages than cl-user?
2020-10-25T10:20:11Z Xach: daphnis: symbol availability is managed through the package system. the tools in this case are defpackage, import, or use-package.
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2020-10-25T10:20:27Z Xach: daphnis: you can also refer to it with a package prefix from other packages.
2020-10-25T10:20:53Z no-defun-allowed: It always is with a package prefix: sb-ext:*posix-argv*
2020-10-25T10:23:55Z daphnis: thanks!
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2020-10-25T10:29:09Z Nilby: there's also (uiop:command-line-arguments) and (uiop:raw-command-line-arguments)
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2020-10-25T10:48:14Z daphnis: how do i prevent sbcl from printing debugging information after ctrl-c?
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2020-10-25T10:50:15Z phoe: what do you mean, printing debugging information?
2020-10-25T10:50:31Z phoe: if you Ctrl+C in the terminal, this sends a unix SIGINT to the process which usually causes SBCL to enter the debugger
2020-10-25T10:50:35Z phoe: what else would you like it to do?
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2020-10-25T10:51:19Z daphnis: just quit without printing anything, like normal programmes do.  i used --non-interactive, so it doesn't wait for input, but it still prints stuff
2020-10-25T10:51:52Z phoe: https://github.com/guicho271828/trivial-signal/
2020-10-25T10:51:54Z Xach: daphnis: one option is to handle the condition
2020-10-25T10:52:12Z Xach: daphnis: another option is to install your own invoke-debugger hook
2020-10-25T10:52:42Z daphnis: Xach: that's a bit too advanced for me at the moment.  i suppose i can live with this for now.
2020-10-25T10:52:58Z mfiano: Or just --disable-debugger
2020-10-25T10:53:02Z phoe: or https://github.com/LispCookbook/cl-cookbook/blob/master/scripting.md#catching-a-c-c-termination-signal
2020-10-25T10:53:08Z phoe: mfiano: --disable-debugger will crash on C-c
2020-10-25T10:53:20Z phoe: you want to explicitly quit on C-c
2020-10-25T10:53:24Z Xach: I use https://github.com/xach/buildapp/blob/dd00f18938ccae0a9b406bfcfd882ad32abeb757/buildapp.lisp#L169
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2020-10-25T10:53:53Z Xach: --disable-debugger will still print a backtrace.
2020-10-25T10:54:11Z Xach: --non-interactive implies --disable-debugger
2020-10-25T10:54:27Z no-defun-allowed: (setf *debugger-hook* (lambda (c f) (exit)))
2020-10-25T10:54:41Z Xach: daphnis: if that's the case, i suggest not trying to build a standalone executable yet.
2020-10-25T10:55:16Z Xach: no-defun-allowed: that's a nice, simple option. for sbcl sb-ext:*invoke-debugger-hook* would be a nice variation.
2020-10-25T10:55:30Z no-defun-allowed: You can use C-d to tell SBCL to exit like C-c. Honestly, I would keep the debugger because it would be nice if "normal programs" broke into a debugger when they break.
2020-10-25T10:55:50Z phoe: Xach: trivial-custom-debugger exits for cross-implementation setting of invoke-debugger-hook or whatever it's called everywhere
2020-10-25T10:56:02Z phoe: exists*
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2020-10-25T10:57:38Z Xach: That seems like an unnecessary complication early on,
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2020-10-25T10:58:45Z phoe: oh, yes
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2020-10-25T12:22:48Z pve: Hello! I'm thinking about a protocol, but have trouble deciding between two approaches. Which do you think is better? I'm leaning towards #1.
2020-10-25T12:22:51Z pve: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2093
2020-10-25T12:24:14Z Xach: pve: i like unary predicates (and functions in general) if i intend to map them or do general higher-order programming with them to reduce the use of (lambda (token) (token-kind token 'foo)) vs #'token-foo-p
2020-10-25T12:24:48Z pve: Xach: thank you, good point
2020-10-25T12:25:07Z Xach: although sometimes i make something like (defun =token-kind (kind) (lambda (token) (eq (kind token) kind)) and do (remove-if (=token-kind 'foo) list)
2020-10-25T12:25:24Z pve: right
2020-10-25T12:26:38Z phoe: I also use (a:rcurry #'token-kind 'my-token) sometimes
2020-10-25T12:26:43Z phoe: where a stands for alexandria
2020-10-25T12:27:42Z phoe: also, if you want to go full CLOS, CHECK-VALID-TOKEN-KIND could be a generic function with the default method returning NIL and other methods, EQL-specialized on symbols, returning T
2020-10-25T12:28:12Z phoe: ...and then I guess it should be VALID-TOKEN-KIND-P and be a predicate rather than an assertion
2020-10-25T12:28:20Z pve: phoe: sure, that could work
2020-10-25T12:28:37Z phoe: but that's just my $0.02
2020-10-25T12:29:10Z pve: the set of kinds is closed, which is why I let it be a function
2020-10-25T12:29:48Z pve: or rather, didn't spend much time thinking about it
2020-10-25T12:30:57Z phoe: oh, this way
2020-10-25T12:31:11Z phoe: if you intend it not to be user- extensible in any way, then I guess it could work
2020-10-25T12:31:18Z phoe: s/user- extensible/user-extensible/
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2020-10-25T12:39:37Z Xach: i'd expect a function named check-<something> to signal an error rather than return nil
2020-10-25T12:39:57Z phoe: that's why I suggested the name change
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2020-10-25T14:10:17Z MichaelRaskin: Does anyone know if there are any recent changes in how monolithic-compile-bundle-op is supposed to be used on recent ASDF (with SBCL on Linux)?
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2020-10-25T14:22:53Z MichaelRaskin: Hmm. It feels like before it sorted dependency closure by inter-dependency, and now just takes the order in the top-level ASD file
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2020-10-25T15:29:49Z Josh_2: Afternoon
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2020-10-25T19:52:34Z dbotton: What is the best way to insure the type used matches what is expected, example - (defstruct choice (name (error "Must provide :NAME."))
2020-10-25T19:53:17Z dbotton: While compile time ideal even dynamically
2020-10-25T19:54:20Z phoe: you mean in DEFSTRUCT?
2020-10-25T19:54:25Z dbotton: In particular if there is some idiomatic way to do in CL
2020-10-25T19:54:41Z dbotton: well this is a struct (from your book ;)
2020-10-25T19:55:13Z dbotton: but I was curious if I had such a struct is there a way to insure what is put in it
2020-10-25T19:55:18Z phoe: (defstruct choice (name (error "Must provide :NAME.") :type symbol))
2020-10-25T19:55:34Z dbotton: of and for the function?
2020-10-25T19:55:48Z phoe: :type function I guess
2020-10-25T19:55:54Z phoe: but depends if you always put some function in there
2020-10-25T19:56:06Z phoe: you might want :type (or null function) if there might be a NIL in there
2020-10-25T19:56:35Z dbotton: ok, and is there a way to insure a specific signature of the function
2020-10-25T19:56:41Z phoe: nope
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2020-10-25T19:57:03Z dbotton: how would I test for that (i assume possible)
2020-10-25T19:57:20Z dbotton: I guess on sbcl can do a declare
2020-10-25T19:57:27Z phoe: actually, not really
2020-10-25T19:57:34Z phoe: the FUNCTION type cannot be used for discrimination
2020-10-25T19:57:46Z dbotton: hmmm
2020-10-25T19:57:53Z phoe: you could in theory (ql:quickload :trivial-arguments) and use that to grab lambda lists from function objects and check if the lambda list matches
2020-10-25T19:57:58Z phoe: but that's kind of a hassle
2020-10-25T19:58:31Z dbotton: ok, so nothing beyond honor system and hope doesn't explore :)
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2020-10-25T19:59:10Z phoe: actually, if you call a function with a wrong number of arguments, a PROGRAM-ERROR should be signaled
2020-10-25T20:00:06Z dbotton: ok
2020-10-25T20:00:14Z _death: if you really wanted you could implement your own and have (defstruct typed-function argument-types return-types phase-of-the-moon lisp-function) etc.
2020-10-25T20:00:55Z dbotton: maybe eventually for now just trying to understand the lispy way
2020-10-25T20:01:09Z _death: the Lispy way is to not declare types if there's no good reason to
2020-10-25T20:01:51Z dbotton: I see it, just taking some getting used to. Is like wearing sandals after a life time of formal shoes
2020-10-25T20:02:06Z _death: what constitutes a "good reason" is something to be learned and is situation-specific
2020-10-25T20:02:44Z phoe: I guess that you could (deftype typed-function ...) and check the lambda list in a SATISFIES predicate internally
2020-10-25T20:02:55Z phoe: by using trivial-arguments:arglist
2020-10-25T20:02:58Z phoe: it would be a hack, but it would work
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2020-10-25T20:06:29Z dbotton: In time I guess I'll see if necessary or how defensive I have to code
2020-10-25T20:07:32Z phoe: I just realized that TCLCS could be used as kind of a tutorial for building libraries in Common Lisp
2020-10-25T20:07:51Z dbotton: I am just used to the extreme sense of type as a protection from programmer error
2020-10-25T20:08:02Z phoe: if we can build a condition system from scratch then we could build other sorts of code from scratch too
2020-10-25T20:08:05Z phoe thinks
2020-10-25T20:08:34Z phoe: dbotton: usually one doesn't program this defensively in CL because the feedback loop is tiny and one can test code as it is written in the REPL
2020-10-25T20:08:46Z phoe: also unit tests are a thing and SBCL type inference is also a thing
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2020-10-25T20:09:19Z phoe: if you DECLARE TYPE then SBCL treats it as an assertion and will warn you if it detects a type mismatch somewhere in your code
2020-10-25T20:09:41Z dbotton: so I can use the declare type in a struct?
2020-10-25T20:09:50Z dbotton: I know can in clos
2020-10-25T20:10:19Z phoe: uhhh, in defstruct? you should use the :TYPE slot option
2020-10-25T20:10:36Z phoe: DECLARE TYPE is mostly a thing one uses in functions
2020-10-25T20:10:44Z phoe: like (defun foo (bar) (declare (type string bar)) ...)
2020-10-25T20:11:48Z dbotton: sorry that is what I mean, sorry didn't realize could use also in defstruct
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2020-10-25T20:12:23Z _death: dbotton: I am reminded of https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3103318695270771@naggum.no.html (and the subsequent messages in the thread)
2020-10-25T20:13:10Z _death: basically using a dynamic language/system requires a different mindset
2020-10-25T20:13:55Z dbotton: I see that, making the transition not so easy, but already pushing to always look from the perspective of the data no the container
2020-10-25T20:13:58Z phoe: well, Lisp is a language that empowers the programmer
2020-10-25T20:14:25Z dbotton: not sure I always trust those guys ;)
2020-10-25T20:14:45Z phoe: it means that "you shouldn't do that" in Lisp is usually merely a suggestion, whereas in other languages "you shouldn't do that" could cause your code to not even compile
2020-10-25T20:15:13Z dbotton: well that is not per se a negative
2020-10-25T20:15:26Z phoe: that is the case with e.g. modifying slots; there's no real "private" or "protected" modifiers like in Java or C++
2020-10-25T20:15:38Z Josh_2: if you want to make sure a function receives the expected type you can use the macro (check-type .. ) I use it quite a bit
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2020-10-25T20:18:03Z dbotton: (I really wish had started with list 10 or 20 yrs ago... maybe though was not mature enough then to appreciate)
2020-10-25T20:18:10Z dbotton: lisp not list
2020-10-25T20:18:17Z phoe: the tooling has improved since 2010
2020-10-25T20:19:46Z dbotton: all is what it is, I am only 3 weeks in
2020-10-25T20:21:08Z Josh_2: very cool dbotton :D
2020-10-25T20:21:30Z dbotton: getting beyond the idea of never placing programming logic in an exception already a shock
2020-10-25T20:22:00Z dbotton: :)
2020-10-25T20:22:43Z phoe: in an exception? what do you mean
2020-10-25T20:22:52Z phoe: in Lisp, you never place programming logic in exceptions
2020-10-25T20:23:02Z dbotton: using the condition system beyond handle-case
2020-10-25T20:23:02Z phoe: (mostly because in Lisp you have no exceptions)
2020-10-25T20:23:23Z pve: I'm not sure the tooling was that bad even before 2010, I still remember being blown away by Marco Baringer's slime video in like 2006 or something
2020-10-25T20:23:43Z dbotton: handler-case = see still working on getting it all in place
2020-10-25T20:24:07Z dbotton: in every other language it is an exception system not a condition system
2020-10-25T20:24:37Z phoe: pve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B_4vhsmRRI that is from 2005, yes
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2020-10-25T20:25:02Z shka_: phoe: (defclass exception (error)...
2020-10-25T20:25:07Z shka_: check mate
2020-10-25T20:25:12Z pve: phoe: that's the one :)
2020-10-25T20:25:29Z shka_: oh god, that old osx look
2020-10-25T20:25:36Z shka_: it did not age wel
2020-10-25T20:25:39Z shka_: l
2020-10-25T20:25:43Z phoe: shka_: actually you can't do that portably because ERROR is not required to be a standard-class
2020-10-25T20:26:10Z phoe: (define-condition exception (error) ...)
2020-10-25T20:26:25Z shka_: right
2020-10-25T20:26:28Z shka_: i
2020-10-25T20:26:39Z shka_: i really don't like this aspect of cl
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2020-10-25T20:26:50Z phoe: which one do you mean
2020-10-25T20:27:27Z shka_: conditions not being standard-classes
2020-10-25T20:27:39Z shka_: it feels completely redundant
2020-10-25T20:27:47Z phoe: inorite
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2020-10-25T20:28:03Z aeth: shka_: it's so you can use the condition system internally even before you have standard classes
2020-10-25T20:28:17Z phoe: only SBCL does it that way though
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2020-10-25T20:28:35Z Bike: the CL conditions system can be conceived of as an exception system plus extra bits
2020-10-25T20:28:44Z Bike: if you don't use restarts or handler-bind there ya go
2020-10-25T20:29:00Z phoe: or signal
2020-10-25T20:29:23Z phoe: error/handler-case/unwind-protect is literally throw/try/catch/finally
2020-10-25T20:29:46Z Bike: oh true
2020-10-25T20:30:05Z shka_: aeth: ok, this is an acceptable reason
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2020-10-25T20:30:32Z Bike: under the hood it doesn't work much like C++ or anything (ask me about clasp! or don't, this part of it sucks) so there's a lie-to-children aspect
2020-10-25T20:30:57Z dbotton: but outside of that seems like handler-bind has some usage not related to exceptions at all
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2020-10-25T20:31:16Z dbotton: is there a reason not to use it in a design?
2020-10-25T20:31:31Z phoe: a design of what exactly?
2020-10-25T20:31:45Z dbotton: normal functionality of a program
2020-10-25T20:31:54Z phoe: yes, it's useful for hooks
2020-10-25T20:32:02Z _death: if conceived as such, it may shift pragmatics towards that common denominator
2020-10-25T20:32:03Z shka_: dbotton: you can do it, pcl describes it
2020-10-25T20:32:27Z dbotton: that is my point, no one is going to avoid it like the exception systems of every other language
2020-10-25T20:32:29Z shka_: but i personally don't find it to be a good idea
2020-10-25T20:32:35Z dbotton: why?
2020-10-25T20:32:36Z phoe: SIGNAL is a way of saying "hey, if you have dynamically provided me any code that matches this symbol, I will run it for you"
2020-10-25T20:32:53Z phoe: and HANDLER-BIND is a way of saying "here ya go mate"
2020-10-25T20:33:01Z shka_: because you can do the same with object in a bound to a dynamic variable
2020-10-25T20:33:10Z shka_: and more as well
2020-10-25T20:33:32Z dbotton: this though seems more "obvious" to the reader
2020-10-25T20:33:34Z phoe: (well, handlers are objects bound to a dynamic variable)
2020-10-25T20:34:01Z phoe: but yes, if you want or need to reinvent the handler subsystem for any reason then it's easy to do so
2020-10-25T20:34:25Z shka_: well, i don't think it is more obvious
2020-10-25T20:34:34Z phoe: TCLCS describes this case and the restart subsystem too
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2020-10-25T20:34:56Z shka_: i would rather call a generic function then play around with different ways of selecting restarts
2020-10-25T20:35:16Z shka_: for error handling, sure condition system is perfect
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2020-10-25T20:36:12Z shka_: but i think they are not the best option for the regular application logic
2020-10-25T20:36:38Z shka_: that's just my personal opinion though
2020-10-25T20:38:08Z dbotton: _death from that post "if you want the compiler to smack you in the face if you do it anyway, I'd say you have an attitude problem that needs readjustment" - I wonder what that says about me...
2020-10-25T20:38:45Z dbotton: I guess I have been a software control freak for most of my life :)
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2020-10-25T20:40:33Z phoe: shka_: conditions are more or less extension points; they're equivalent to generic functions, especially with this approach that beach and scymtym have been using recently, e.g. inside eclector
2020-10-25T20:40:58Z phoe: where you have a client of sorts as an argument to each GF, and you can specialize on it to add your own functionality
2020-10-25T20:41:13Z phoe: and then you have a *client* dynavar that you can rebind to turn this functionality on or off
2020-10-25T20:41:18Z _death: dbotton: also check his next message in the thread (the one mentioning epistemological assumptions)
2020-10-25T20:41:58Z dbotton: I am still trying to collect my ego from its broken pieces on my floor.. soon
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2020-10-25T20:43:10Z shka_: phoe: in theory yes, but in practice i find them usually worse option for the extension
2020-10-25T20:43:57Z phoe: shka_: find who usually worse option?
2020-10-25T20:44:21Z shka_: i can't parse the above sentence
2020-10-25T20:44:21Z phoe: if it's conditions, then to be honest, so do I - the GF approach is cleaner wherever you know what your code should do at a given moment
2020-10-25T20:44:33Z phoe: shka_: "in practice i find them usually worse option for the extension"
2020-10-25T20:44:44Z phoe: in the above sentence, the variable THEM is unbound
2020-10-25T20:45:32Z shka_: yes, i meant that i find condition system to be less practical as an extension point
2020-10-25T20:45:44Z scymtym: i found the condition system uniquely suited to this: https://github.com/scymtym/more-conditions#tracking-and-reporting-progress-of-operations
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2020-10-25T20:46:04Z scymtym: that's more modularity than extensibility, though
2020-10-25T20:46:06Z shka_: scymtym: eh, not really
2020-10-25T20:46:19Z shka_: i mean, it is okish
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2020-10-25T20:46:41Z shka_: but once you start threads things become more complicated
2020-10-25T20:47:13Z shka_: and sure, dynamic variables must be reestablished in the new thread
2020-10-25T20:47:31Z shka_: but that's handier then transferring conditions over threads
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2020-10-25T20:48:19Z shka_: overall, i think that condition system is pretty much specialized tool that can be pressed into service for other tasks
2020-10-25T20:48:29Z shka_: but it does not make it ideal
2020-10-25T20:48:45Z phoe: the condition system is handy when your code doesn't have full information about how it should act
2020-10-25T20:48:57Z scymtym: shka_: sure, but i didn't find the complications from threads problematic in practice. more like a cost paid once for being able to report progress of operations from anywhere in the code (and having the same code work fine if progress notification are not handled)
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2020-10-25T20:49:12Z phoe: if you don't have really exceptional situations then standard control flow is enough in all cases, by definition
2020-10-25T20:50:01Z shka_: scymtym: sure, but the same can be done with (defvar *handler*) and just let
2020-10-25T20:50:07Z shka_: or even
2020-10-25T20:50:47Z shka_: (defvar *handler* nil) and simply do nothing if NULL
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2020-10-25T20:51:00Z phoe: shka_: the handler subsystem *is* defvar + let, so no doubt it can be done :D
2020-10-25T20:51:15Z shka_: well, yes
2020-10-25T20:51:35Z phoe: just a bit more complex than a single dynavar
2020-10-25T20:52:01Z shka_: i just propose to skip the extra crust for things that are not exceptional situations
2020-10-25T20:52:44Z shka_: and benefit from your standard CLOS spice
2020-10-25T20:53:01Z phoe: sure, the only real practical advantage there is that HANDLER-CASE and SIGNAL are already built-in so you don't need to define your own dynavar and use it
2020-10-25T20:53:34Z shka_: i am not even sure if this is an advantage honestly
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2020-10-25T20:53:57Z phoe: one custom symbol less to import; some people like it this way
2020-10-25T20:53:58Z shka_: because dynavars are totally part of protocols
2020-10-25T20:54:20Z shka_: and i kinda like my protocols explicit
2020-10-25T20:54:28Z dbotton: is seems a bit more readable then a dynavar but that could be because I am not used to seeing it
2020-10-25T20:54:47Z shka_: you will get used to dynavars real quick
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2020-10-25T20:54:49Z shka_: trust me
2020-10-25T20:54:51Z phoe: dbotton: likely the latter
2020-10-25T20:54:57Z phoe: dynavars are used all across Common Lisp
2020-10-25T20:55:03Z shka_: yeah
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2020-10-25T20:55:21Z shka_: arguably one of the most important features of lisp languages
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2020-10-25T20:56:03Z dbotton: I think this  shows the colossal failure of trying to translate c/ada/pascal etc -> lisp they are way to different
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2020-10-25T20:56:53Z shka_: hmmm
2020-10-25T20:57:08Z dbotton: I still keep adding notes to myself, but there is clearly reason no one has done a simple chart like between c <-> pascal etc
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2020-10-25T20:59:23Z shka_: dbotton: my tip is following
2020-10-25T21:00:30Z shka_: cl is actually not that difficult to learn, and the only major obstacle is that it is different
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2020-10-25T21:00:48Z shka_: however, cl fundamentally has not-that-many features
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2020-10-25T21:01:03Z dbotton: It isn't that I see, you first though have to dump everything you ever learned
2020-10-25T21:01:05Z shka_: secondly, features usually work together really well
2020-10-25T21:01:41Z shka_: thirdly, it is actually coherently designed language
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2020-10-25T21:02:18Z shka_: so the learning curve has large delta near the start
2020-10-25T21:02:27Z shka_: but it flattens quickly
2020-10-25T21:02:54Z phoe: dbotton: you can learn lisp in one day
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2020-10-25T21:02:59Z shka_: and then it really is a normal, well designed, pleasant language
2020-10-25T21:03:03Z phoe: unless you know C or C++ or Java or any other similar language
2020-10-25T21:03:07Z dbotton: lol
2020-10-25T21:03:09Z phoe: because then it is three days
2020-10-25T21:03:58Z dbotton: I obviously am getting the basics, but mastery like all things takes time, and changing the pattern of software design is the more difficult part
2020-10-25T21:04:03Z dbotton: that does not happen in a day
2020-10-25T21:04:21Z shka_: i am sleepy
2020-10-25T21:04:24Z shka_: good night
2020-10-25T21:04:26Z phoe: yes, as I said, it happens in three days
2020-10-25T21:04:28Z phoe: shka_:  good night
2020-10-25T21:04:36Z dbotton: thank you shka_
2020-10-25T21:04:39Z dbotton: appreciated
2020-10-25T21:05:17Z dbotton: _death "I actually think C++ is ideal only for programmers without any ethics." ..... ugh....
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2020-10-25T21:05:48Z phoe: Naggum Content™
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2020-10-25T21:07:06Z dbotton: This has been one of those moments between those two posts and today to realize that I just flew to a foreign land and foreign customs and "patients grass hopper" said to me by some ancients many times
2020-10-25T21:07:58Z shka_: naggum is one of the best programming trolls
2020-10-25T21:08:13Z shka_: or was
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2020-10-25T21:08:48Z dbotton: i guess someone with a name - nag them would be
2020-10-25T21:09:13Z dbotton: he is not around anymore?
2020-10-25T21:09:18Z p_l: phoe: Scheme is literally, at its base, a language you're supposed to learn in one university lecture
2020-10-25T21:09:56Z MichaelRaskin: Not all revision counts are suitable for that, though
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2020-10-25T21:11:02Z phoe: dbotton: he is not around anymore, correct
2020-10-25T21:11:14Z p_l: MichaelRaskin: the core language as used by SICP, that's the part, yes
2020-10-25T21:11:27Z p_l: I don't know how often 6.001 lectures happened
2020-10-25T21:11:42Z p_l: but you're given only one lecture to learn Scheme enough to follow the later ones
2020-10-25T21:12:31Z MichaelRaskin: I think SICP needs neither of the Scheme's more gotcha-heavy parts
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2020-10-25T21:13:06Z dbotton: Have to go teach, thank you all for the help
2020-10-25T21:13:17Z phoe: good luck
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2020-10-26T03:58:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-10-26T03:59:42Z beach: scymtym: I like the idea of using conditions for reporting progress.  Never thought about that.
2020-10-26T04:01:55Z Nilby: Good morning
2020-10-26T04:02:01Z Nilby: and "Welcome to LDB"
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2020-10-26T07:47:13Z phoe: hey wait a morning in LDB is a bad morning
2020-10-26T07:47:39Z no-defun-allowed: LDB is much nicer than shifting and masking bits yourself.
2020-10-26T07:48:44Z beach: phoe: It's your fault.  Because of your message about the book, I now can't get the song by the Who "I'm free" out of my head.
2020-10-26T07:48:58Z phoe: :(
2020-10-26T07:49:32Z beach: It's OK.  I like that album.
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2020-10-26T08:24:10Z scymtym: beach: yeah, as i said, it worked very well for me. but as shka_ mentioned, a little extra work is needed to make the approach work across multiple threads
2020-10-26T08:24:41Z beach: Yes, I can see that.
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2020-10-26T10:14:44Z Xach uses conditions in that way in Quicklisp download progress reporting
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2020-10-26T10:15:54Z beach: Interesting.
2020-10-26T10:16:47Z Xach: in my innocence i imagined someone making a graphical frontend and wanted it to be able to handle progress bars without changing much
2020-10-26T10:18:14Z beach: Yeah, it's a perfect mechanism for alternative front-ends.
2020-10-26T10:18:31Z beach: ... including the absence of a font end entirely.
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2020-10-26T10:38:44Z Robdgreat: the front fell off?
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2020-10-26T10:48:18Z ck_: chance in a million!
2020-10-26T10:49:42Z p_l: I seem to recall an early example of conditions being used in relation with text input editing
2020-10-26T10:51:08Z Robdgreat: ck_: ^5
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2020-10-26T14:31:59Z uhrenmacher: Ok, hello people, just havin' two questions my knowledge in terms programming is limited to C, Java and some scripting langs. So I thtought about learning something like some Lisp dialect. What dialect do you recommend a newbie? 2. I have been using Vim for some time now, I am pretty used to it, is it worth it to go for Emacs, when coding in Lisp?
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2020-10-26T14:32:44Z beach: uhrenmacher: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so we will be biased in favor of Common Lisp.
2020-10-26T14:32:48Z TMA: uhrenmacher: this is a common lisp channel. the answer is biased here
2020-10-26T14:32:53Z beach: heh.
2020-10-26T14:33:14Z TMA: you are faster, sir. well done
2020-10-26T14:33:17Z _death: yes, it's worth trying emacs
2020-10-26T14:33:18Z uhrenmacher: hmm, so, what makes Common Lisp "superior". Why did you choose to use it?
2020-10-26T14:33:28Z shinohai: >Java
2020-10-26T14:33:29Z beach: uhrenmacher: If you can go for Emacs, that would be good.
2020-10-26T14:33:41Z shinohai: The first step is admitting you have a problem. Well done.
2020-10-26T14:33:53Z uhrenmacher: Should I go full Emacs then or just as a terminal and editor?
2020-10-26T14:34:05Z beach: uhrenmacher: You should use SLIME.
2020-10-26T14:34:16Z beach: It's almost like an IDE for Common Lisp.
2020-10-26T14:34:43Z beach: uhrenmacher: SLIME is an Emacs library.
2020-10-26T14:34:46Z uhrenmacher:  >Java, bruh learned it when I was like 12 to h4xx0r in gaymes, using it for GUIs only nawadays
2020-10-26T14:34:57Z shinohai: xD
2020-10-26T14:36:05Z beach: uhrenmacher: See random-state.net/features-of-common-lisp.html for a list of features of Common Lisp.
2020-10-26T14:39:09Z uhrenmacher: Ok, so common lisp, do you recommend any compiler? Using Void Linux.
2020-10-26T14:39:20Z cl-arthur: uhrenmacher: I used to use vim, now after enough lisp I use emacs (w/ SLIME). lisping with emacs/slime is far better an experience than the straight vim I used before. There's something SLIME-like for vim, but yeah go emacs.
2020-10-26T14:39:48Z beach: uhrenmacher: Most people here probably use SBCL.  It is not just a compiler.  It is an interactive system, just like any other Common Lisp implementation.
2020-10-26T14:40:37Z phoe: uhrenmacher: the interactivity of Lisp is a massive benefit over all non-interactive languages
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2020-10-26T14:41:07Z phoe: one can, and should, inspect, debug, modify, converse with a living Lisp application without ever quitting it
2020-10-26T14:41:34Z Inline: it's just that interactivity i sometimes lack especially when doing oop related stuff
2020-10-26T14:41:35Z uhrenmacher: ah, yeah, that was something. Ok, this question is probably far to retarded, but...why can't I just write my code in a file, compile it and then execute it? Like just looked up some tuts on it, but couldn't find anything for this. Maybe I am to brainlet to see the advantages, idk
2020-10-26T14:41:45Z uhrenmacher: *too
2020-10-26T14:41:46Z Inline: then it might get cumbersome
2020-10-26T14:41:56Z Inline: or i didn't find a good way to deal with yet
2020-10-26T14:41:59Z Inline: heh
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2020-10-26T14:42:05Z phoe: uhrenmacher: of course you can
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2020-10-26T14:42:15Z phoe: but then you're missing out on all the fun parts of programming
2020-10-26T14:42:39Z Inline: i find myself often editing stuff and reloading my repl
2020-10-26T14:42:49Z Inline: rather than staying put in the repl for ever
2020-10-26T14:42:52Z phoe: when your program doesn't work then it just crashes, which means that you don't get to debug it or inspect its data structures live
2020-10-26T14:42:53Z Inline: lol
2020-10-26T14:42:54Z shortername: hmm, so why do people recommend against doing so?
2020-10-26T14:43:08Z beach: shortername: You would create an executable only at the end of a long development cycle.  We can discuss that in a few months.
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2020-10-26T14:43:39Z phoe: Lisp can compile incrementally, which means very short feedback loops, where a newly compiled function is available inside your program in milliseconds rather than seconds and you can immediately play with it in the REPL
2020-10-26T14:43:40Z Inline: for redefining functions/macros it's ok i suppose, but really i have not found a good way to oop stuff yet
2020-10-26T14:45:02Z beach: Inline: What do you mean?  What kind of "oop stuff"?
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2020-10-26T14:45:26Z pipes: shortername: You would create an executable only at the end
2020-10-26T14:45:26Z pipes:             of a long development cycle.  We can discuss that in a few
2020-10-26T14:45:26Z pipes:             months.
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2020-10-26T14:46:09Z jackdaniel: removing methods from a generic functions is kind of awkward, maybe that's what he means
2020-10-26T14:46:23Z Xach: It's not too bad in slime
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2020-10-26T14:46:30Z beach: Clouseau can do that.
2020-10-26T14:46:51Z jackdaniel: that's why I've said "awkward", not "hard" ;)
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2020-10-26T14:47:13Z Xach: I still do wish for a smart remove-method-at-point
2020-10-26T14:47:15Z beach: Clouseau is a delight.  Not awkward at all. :)
2020-10-26T14:51:31Z Xach: maybe i'd also like a nicer inspect-at-point type thing - something that knows if it's looking at a defgeneric, defun, defmethod form and inspects appropriately instead of requiring me to manually enter #'foo at the prompt
2020-10-26T14:52:22Z beach: All good ideas.
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2020-10-26T15:01:59Z jdz: Xach: I use `slime-inspect-definition', which I think works most of the time.
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2020-10-26T15:55:40Z Xach: jdz: thank you! i did not know about that
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2020-10-26T15:57:05Z Xach: jdz: perfect!
2020-10-26T15:59:12Z jdz: Xach: Yay, I've provided information and not noise!  Glad to have helped!
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2020-10-26T18:49:28Z benjamindc: Does anyone know of a good tutorial the describes up-to-date best practices for Lisp project organization and build processes?
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2020-10-26T18:51:45Z phoe: benjamindc: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/
2020-10-26T18:53:39Z benjamindc: phoe that's great. Thank you
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2020-10-26T19:10:54Z loli: is there any literature on how to write an image based system, akin to Common lisp or those forth/smalltalk systems?
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2020-10-26T19:13:25Z phoe: loli: I'd start by writing a Forth or Lisp interpreter
2020-10-26T19:13:45Z phoe: you could try e.g. reimplementing Roots of Lisp by Paul Graham
2020-10-26T19:15:28Z phoe: the basic idea of the Roots of Lisp interpreter is the same idea that stands behind all image-based systems
2020-10-26T19:15:38Z dlowe: a lot of "scripting languages" are also image based systems, so I'm not sure why people acts it's so crazy when lisp does it
2020-10-26T19:15:55Z phoe: I know, right? Python is one, Ruby is one
2020-10-26T19:15:58Z phoe: they just aren't used that way
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2020-10-26T19:16:23Z dlowe: and they generally don't have optimizing, bare-metal compilers
2020-10-26T19:16:36Z phoe: yes, but those aren't strictly required
2020-10-26T19:16:51Z loli: can those systems save the current image, then resume on a ceratin function afterwords? I'm curious on how the format of that is, thanks for the suggestion
2020-10-26T19:16:53Z phoe: a purely interpreting image-based system is still an image-based system
2020-10-26T19:16:55Z no-defun-allowed: They're just tedious to use interactively; I can't break into a REPL in a Python program too easily.
2020-10-26T19:17:04Z loli: hopefully roots of lisp will be useful
2020-10-26T19:17:05Z phoe: loli: that's an implementation detail, albeit an important one
2020-10-26T19:17:28Z loli: well I'm curious if that kind of detail is noted anywhere, as when I searched for papers on the subject it came up baren
2020-10-26T19:17:33Z phoe: most Lisp implementations dump their in-memory data structures somewhere and then restore those when the image is reloaded
2020-10-26T19:17:41Z no-defun-allowed: And one does not have update-instance-for-redefined class, so one is limited in what they can change while live.
2020-10-26T19:17:54Z benjamindc: What about Lisp in small pieces?
2020-10-26T19:18:05Z phoe: the simplest idea ever is to record all commands that were issued to the image from its start to its freezing and then replay them when the image is thawed
2020-10-26T19:18:16Z phoe: I haven't read LiSP so I cannot say
2020-10-26T19:19:20Z phoe: I mean, if in theory you do (defun foo () 42) (defun bar () (foo)) (dump-image "foo.image") then all that is required for the dumped image to become equivalent is to reexecute (defun foo () 42) (defun bar () (foo))
2020-10-26T19:19:43Z phoe: obviously this won't work in case of filesystem interaction or other side effects, but it's a simple idea that will work for toy interpreters
2020-10-26T19:19:59Z phoe: for everything else, you'd need to dump memory and restore it properly afterwards
2020-10-26T19:20:07Z no-defun-allowed: Some Smalltalk implementations do that, and export a changelog pretty much like that one.
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2020-10-26T19:25:12Z loli: how do those implementations handle side effects?
2020-10-26T19:26:25Z loli: I've made a fair few interpreters in my day, I guess the saving the memory to disk in a format that is very quick to reload is what alludes me
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2020-10-26T19:26:35Z phoe: it is doable
2020-10-26T19:26:51Z phoe: I played with the FASL format in Clozue Common Lisp one day
2020-10-26T19:27:07Z no-defun-allowed: I can't remember if they also dump an image now, but in some cases, they don't touch the filesystem at any other time.
2020-10-26T19:27:27Z phoe: (I need to push that refactored FASL code upstream someday)
2020-10-26T19:27:46Z loli: how was that? Is there any docuemntation on the FASL layouts?
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2020-10-26T19:28:23Z loli: I'm assuming those are packed in those beefy images that save-lisp-and-die produces
2020-10-26T19:28:34Z phoe: nope, CCL is woefully undocumented
2020-10-26T19:28:48Z phoe: the architecture is documented well enough; the code itself is not
2020-10-26T19:28:54Z phoe: but! the format is actually simple enough for me to grok
2020-10-26T19:29:22Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe-trash/ccl/blob/0aa5b5d209f288ee04157c60624dea5f79787c16/xdump/faslenv.lisp
2020-10-26T19:29:29Z phoe: that's after my refactoring
2020-10-26T19:30:06Z phoe: DEFINE-FASL-OPERATIONS contains a declarative list of all FASL commands permitted in a CCL FASL file
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2020-10-26T19:33:17Z loli: thanks for the links, I'll spend some time studying them, and hopefully have a better idea how to make a nice image environment
2020-10-26T19:33:36Z phoe: the toughest part is dumping code
2020-10-26T19:33:56Z phoe: but once you have it compiled in memory you can treat it as any other vector of data
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2020-10-26T19:35:05Z no-defun-allowed: Wouldn't code have to be position-independent, or installable at an arbitrary location given to you?
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2020-10-26T19:36:40Z phoe: it would - but that's already not your problem
2020-10-26T19:36:43Z phoe: it's the problem of the compiler author
2020-10-26T19:37:18Z phoe: ...obviously this does not apply if you're the compiler author
2020-10-26T19:37:58Z phoe: but e.g. if all of your code is interpreted then your code is actually data, and dumping data is easier
2020-10-26T19:38:19Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed.
2020-10-26T19:38:47Z loli: well I'm assuming compiled code, not really interpreting at all
2020-10-26T19:38:57Z phoe: who writes the compiler then?
2020-10-26T19:39:04Z loli: I am
2020-10-26T19:39:22Z phoe: then your compiled code needs to take this into account - code must be reloadable like this
2020-10-26T19:39:26Z Bike: sbcl does relocations when it loads an image, i think
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2020-10-26T19:44:21Z benjamin`: Has any work begun on a Common Lisp LSP language server?
2020-10-26T19:44:52Z phoe: https://github.com/cxxxr/cl-lsp
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2020-10-26T19:47:53Z benjamin`: oh i did come across that, but it hasn't been touched in 4 years, save for an edit to the README
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2020-10-26T19:49:53Z Xach: too volatile for your tastes?
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2020-10-26T19:50:26Z phoe: there's little demand for a lisp LSP server because we have slime and sly
2020-10-26T19:50:45Z benjamin`: Yeah. Sly is pretty slick.
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2020-10-26T19:55:58Z Xach: Who can I tell that the cmucl.org ssl cert is expired?
2020-10-26T19:56:02Z Xach checks whois
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2020-10-26T19:57:03Z phoe: Xach: perhaps Raymond Toy?
2020-10-26T19:57:30Z phoe: e.g. https://github.com/rtoy/cmucl/commit/932884a4b406572614a9830bf864738a0c3a5700.patch has his mail
2020-10-26T19:57:34Z Xach: seems possible
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2020-10-26T20:32:21Z dbotton: Is there any document that describes the interaction between threads and condition handlers? dynamic variables?
2020-10-26T20:33:05Z dbotton: maybe I am over thinking on this, but not finding much info
2020-10-26T20:33:45Z phoe: each thread has its own set of handlers
2020-10-26T20:33:49Z no-defun-allowed: Condition handlers are per thread, yes.
2020-10-26T20:34:01Z phoe: mostly because it has its own set of dynamic bindings
2020-10-26T20:34:23Z no-defun-allowed: Those are usually implemented with dynamic variables, and dynamic variables are also thread-local. What phoe said.
2020-10-26T20:34:32Z dbotton: got it
2020-10-26T20:34:46Z Bike: i don't see condition handlers or other parts of the dynamic environment mentioned in bordeaux-threads's docs, at a glance
2020-10-26T20:35:12Z dbotton: so not really useful between threads, like for msg passing
2020-10-26T20:35:49Z Bike: i'm not sure i understand how you'd use signal handlers for message passing.
2020-10-26T20:35:51Z no-defun-allowed: You probably should use mailboxes for message passing (eg safe-queue provides those).
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2020-10-26T20:44:04Z aeth: multithreading is still an underexplored frontier in most languages and CL is no exception (or is that "condition"?) here
2020-10-26T20:44:56Z phoe: well, in CL every thread has its own handlers since every thread has its own dynamic environment
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2020-10-26T20:45:11Z phoe: passing condition objects around threads is possible since they're Lisp data like any other
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2020-10-26T20:45:29Z phoe: it's just that stack information is not passable so easily because it's strictly thread-local unlike condition objects
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2020-10-26T20:45:37Z phoe: Dissect might come to help, but just a little bit
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2020-10-26T20:50:41Z dbotton: I wouldn't say most languages. The idea Bike is to say to have a thread block until receives a signal etc
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2020-10-26T20:51:17Z aeth: dbotton: re "most"... by quantity, I wouldn't be surprised if most languages don't even have "real" (non-green) threads yet.
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2020-10-26T20:53:36Z Bike: the lisp condition system isn't very much like nix interprocedural signals
2020-10-26T20:54:12Z Bike: the name "signal" being shared is kind of a coincidence, as far as i know
2020-10-26T20:55:27Z sm2n: dbotton, I don't really see what would stop you from writing your own scheduler that could do that though
2020-10-26T20:56:21Z phoe: dbotton: that's a job for mailboxes, not CL conditions
2020-10-26T20:56:48Z dbotton: understood
2020-10-26T20:58:42Z dbotton: sm2n, I am actually thinking about copying some of the Ada concurrency abstractions as an exercise
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2020-10-26T20:58:57Z _death: so, I've decided to archive the old Road to Lisp Survey submissions that were hosted on ALU wiki on github.. https://github.com/death/road-to-lisp hopefully none of those listed minds...
2020-10-26T21:03:29Z dbotton: aeth maybe I am missing it, but the use of non-green threads is going to be more of the implementation or os then the language
2020-10-26T21:04:18Z dbotton: most languages today have so low level support like bordeaux threads
2020-10-26T21:04:29Z dbotton: have some
2020-10-26T21:05:07Z dbotton: that are more or less a one to one to the OS support
2020-10-26T21:05:51Z dbotton: very few have higher level abstractions for sure
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2020-10-26T21:09:11Z dbotton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Oberon
2020-10-26T21:09:43Z dbotton: comes to mind as an example of what I mean by a higher abstraction
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2020-10-26T21:11:26Z dbotton: Bike they used conditions for synchronization
2020-10-26T21:12:31Z Bike: how's that? i googled up https://oberoncore.ru/_media/wiki/lang/reali_p.active_oberon_language_report.en.pdf but it's a different sense of the word
2020-10-26T21:12:43Z Bike: and this wikipedia article has no inline citations
2020-10-26T21:14:19Z no-defun-allowed: There are "condition variables" which are synchronisation primitives, but not related to the condition system.
2020-10-26T21:14:24Z Bike: yes
2020-10-26T21:14:35Z dbotton: ok
2020-10-26T21:14:54Z Bike: i mean, the wikipedia article does make it sound like lisp type conditions, but there's no detailed information
2020-10-26T21:15:00Z Bike: doesn't seem to be mentioned in the JMLC paper either
2020-10-26T21:15:47Z Bike: i am curious to see how this works
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2020-10-26T21:16:53Z aeth: dbotton: most languages are single-implementation or single-dominant-implementation languages, so it's doubtful that they have something like bordeaux-threads if the dominant implementation doesn't have the need for it yet.
2020-10-26T21:17:11Z aeth: dbotton: but, yes, it's technically an implementation issue
2020-10-26T21:17:21Z dbotton: I mean in the sense of level of abstraction
2020-10-26T21:17:42Z Bike: bordeaux is certainly a pretty low level api.
2020-10-26T21:17:50Z dbotton: most langs have very minimal work on absraction
2020-10-26T21:18:21Z dbotton: CL after all I have seen seems to deserve that
2020-10-26T21:19:06Z dbotton: certainly more then os "thread apis"
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2020-10-26T21:20:17Z dbotton: at least tasks, protected types etc like Ada or perhaps something like the model of active oberon (I wish I could say have experience with it but do not but I like the idea)
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2020-10-26T22:17:13Z sm2n: dbotton_, CL does have some high level concurrency abstractions, for example lparallel
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2020-10-26T22:17:55Z dbotton_: that I saw. Are there any others?
2020-10-26T22:23:54Z jmercouris: chanl
2020-10-26T22:23:58Z jmercouris: dbotton_: ^
2020-10-26T22:24:15Z phoe: cl-actors
2020-10-26T22:25:40Z dbotton_: great thanks will look at those
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2020-10-26T23:55:17Z jasom: how do I find the upstream of a system in quicklis?
2020-10-26T23:56:03Z aeth: jasom: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects
2020-10-26T23:56:10Z aeth: in particular https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/tree/master/projects
2020-10-26T23:56:22Z aeth: it's too big to fit in github, but you can click on, say, 1am, and then manually rename the URL
2020-10-26T23:56:33Z aeth: e.g. replace "1am" with the project you want in https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/tree/master/projects/1am
2020-10-26T23:56:47Z aeth: the source.txt is the source that quicklisp uses afaik
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2020-10-27T01:40:54Z dbotton_: is the convention to only on global vars or also in locally declared special vars too?
2020-10-27T01:41:07Z dbotton_: to have ear muffs
2020-10-27T01:42:12Z aeth: I think it's the latter
2020-10-27T01:42:17Z aeth: but it's so rare
2020-10-27T01:42:26Z dbotton_: thanks
2020-10-27T01:42:44Z aeth: https://www.cliki.net/Naming+conventions
2020-10-27T01:43:05Z aeth: that's mostly, but not entirely correct
2020-10-27T01:43:28Z aeth: Schemers don't seem to recognize the $foo convention if you ask in #scheme
2020-10-27T01:44:20Z aeth: and most of the "occasionally seen" stuff are probably just in one project (one even says Macsyma)
2020-10-27T01:44:41Z dbotton_: appreciated
2020-10-27T01:49:53Z aeth: you can violate a few of the archaic rules. No one will complain if you use define-foo instead of deffoo or defoo. It's even in the standard, with define-condition
2020-10-27T01:50:06Z _death: <foo> is dylan-esque, .foo. is used in sbcl, foo&/foo$ is used in gbbopen..
2020-10-27T01:51:07Z aeth: you're far more likely to see the actual type instead of foo&/foo$ if you're writing numerical code... especially since you basically gain nothing for having a "foo, operating on floats" since if you don't specify single-float or double-float, you're probably just going to get the generic + anyway
2020-10-27T01:52:10Z _death: aeth: gbbopen uses foo$ to mean single-float.. there's also foo$&/foo$$/foo$$$ for the others
2020-10-27T01:52:27Z aeth: now at that point you might as well use C
2020-10-27T01:52:35Z aeth: I use CL so I don't have to decode &s
2020-10-27T01:52:56Z _death: aeth: well, I can't imagine gbbopen implemented in C :)
2020-10-27T01:53:14Z aeth: I've never heard of that before. what's it do?
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2020-10-27T01:53:42Z _death: it's a blackboard system that integrates well with CLOS
2020-10-27T01:53:53Z borei: good morning/afternoon everybody.
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2020-10-27T01:54:38Z _death: aeth: https://old.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/g0muke/gbbopen_highperformance_blackboardsystem_framework/fnawmns/ has more info on blackboard systems
2020-10-27T01:55:19Z dbotton_: just was looking up
2020-10-27T01:55:36Z _death: anyway, it's not that important.. I would say +foo+ is widely used, but not universally used.. e.g., CL does not use it (and neither do I, for some years now)
2020-10-27T01:56:34Z borei: can somebody gimme heads-up - is it possible to find out size of the basic types - single-float, double-float, integer, etc.
2020-10-27T01:57:04Z _death: clhs float-digits
2020-10-27T01:57:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_fl.htm
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2020-10-27T02:00:50Z borei: hmm, not exactly like that. Is there any analog of C "sizeof" ?
2020-10-27T02:01:20Z _death: not in standard CL
2020-10-27T02:01:49Z borei: what is non-standard approach ?
2020-10-27T02:03:23Z aeth: _death: idk, +foo+ seems like one of the most universally used conventions, excluding CL's built-ins... since if you don't, it's reserved. You're not allowed to (let ((most-positive-fixnum 42)) most-positive-fixnum)
2020-10-27T02:03:25Z no-defun-allowed: A Common Lisp program isn't concerned with the size of objects in memory, so it'd be very implementation dependent.
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2020-10-27T02:03:54Z aeth: _death: I know that the current standard discourages USE in DEFPACKAGE outside of CL, but anything that doesn't +foo+ its constants is unUSEable
2020-10-27T02:06:38Z aeth: borei: the size of a fixnum is probably (log (- most-positive-fixnum most-negative-fixnum) 2) bits
2020-10-27T02:06:54Z _death: aeth: if you want your package to be USEable, you use names that assume less context..
2020-10-27T02:07:00Z aeth: (the size of an integer is unbound because it could be a fixnum or a bignum.)
2020-10-27T02:07:51Z aeth: If you care about sizes, though, you can just specify it as e.g. (unsigned-byte 32)
2020-10-27T02:08:51Z aeth: (if it's larger than a fixnum it might be a bignum at the ends of that specified interval, but not necessarily... SBCL optimizes (unsigned-byte 64) and (signed-byte 64) in some circumstances)
2020-10-27T02:08:52Z _death: aeth: for example you would use (defconstant ebac-swedish-standards-factor 1.2) rather than (defconstant factor 1.2)
2020-10-27T02:09:25Z Nilby: The size of a specific fixnum could in fact be zero.
2020-10-27T02:13:27Z aeth: Nilby: how?
2020-10-27T02:14:20Z no-defun-allowed: Well, a fixnum on most implementations doesn't allocate anything on the heap. But there is the one word that every object occupies.
2020-10-27T02:14:29Z Nilby: Compiled away, or compiled into the instruction stream, among other ways.
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2020-10-27T02:15:36Z aeth: if it actually exists, it will probably be 63 bits with a tag bit... or more generally (log (- most-positive-fixnum most-negative-fixnum) 2) bits with the rest of the 64 (or 32 or whatever) bits as a tag bit, since most don't optimize fixnums to the point of giving them 63 bits.
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2020-10-27T02:16:14Z aeth: But, yes, it can be smaller if the compiler has enough information. If everything's (unsigned-byte 32) and stays (unsigned-byte 32) it might just be able to do more if the instruction set lets it. Also, e.g. bit.
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2020-10-27T02:17:13Z Nilby: Or it, in memory, could be bigger than the amount of bits needed to represent it, for example if it is GC'd and turned into a forwarding pointer.
2020-10-27T02:18:54Z aeth: Even if there was a SIZEOF it would probably have to pretend to be a fixnum (e.g. 63 bits in SBCL) even if it's actually smaller...
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2020-10-27T02:22:22Z dbotton: I find this interesting Dynamic binding was actually a bug in McCarthy's lisp 1.0 and then became a feature ever since
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2020-10-27T02:23:56Z _death: serendipity.. welp, sleepytime
2020-10-27T02:24:00Z aeth: this is why specified languages are better than single-implementation languages :-)
2020-10-27T02:24:11Z aeth: if there's one main implementation, every bug is a feature
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2020-10-27T02:25:23Z aeth: SBCL makes breaking changes to conform to the standard
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2020-10-27T02:26:52Z Nilby: I think calling dynamic binding a bug is a little exaggeration. I think it's just easier to implement. Perhaps lexical binding is more a 2.0 feature.
2020-10-27T02:28:21Z dbotton: A Syntactic Theory of Dynamic Binding
2020-10-27T02:28:23Z aeth: technically, M-expressions were the big 2.0 feature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LISP_2
2020-10-27T02:28:30Z dbotton: where I am saw this now
2020-10-27T02:28:31Z Nilby: especially when the first version was by hand in assembly, translated from the lisp implementation on paper
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2020-10-27T02:38:11Z Bike: C sizeof exists because C defines that objects can be treated as arrays of bytes (or chars, or whatever it is), and sizeof returns the size of that
2020-10-27T02:38:20Z Bike: lisp does not do that definition, so there is no sizeof
2020-10-27T02:38:54Z Bike: implementations of Lisp and C can use other representations internally. adding up the sizes of C objects won't accurate reflect memory usage in a C program because the allocator has its own overhead, etc
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2020-10-27T04:10:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-27T04:23:39Z Nilby: Greetings from the deep galactic void
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2020-10-27T05:16:05Z aaaaaa: beach: !
2020-10-27T05:16:30Z aeth: has anyone data mined beach's good mornings yet?
2020-10-27T05:16:51Z aaaaaa: aeth: can be easily grepped
2020-10-27T05:17:15Z aaaaaa: and calculate variance
2020-10-27T05:17:19Z aaaaaa: I should do this
2020-10-27T05:17:25Z aeth: time, any missing days, etc.
2020-10-27T05:17:49Z aaaaaa: aeth: yeah
2020-10-27T05:17:50Z aeth: I propose that a "Lisp day" is a period of time between two of beach's good mornings
2020-10-27T05:18:01Z aaaaaa: aeth: upvote
2020-10-27T05:19:30Z aeth: this would probably be a good use case for one of those CL Jupyter notebook libraries
2020-10-27T05:24:39Z moon-child: on 2020-04-06 and 2020-07-30 he said ' Good morning everyone!' (with a leading space).  Capitalization and spelling are completely consistent, though
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2020-10-27T05:25:37Z aeth: I hope it's regular enough that we can make a "Lisp day" visualization
2020-10-27T05:26:10Z Nilby: How about letting beach have some (admittedly little) personal space?
2020-10-27T05:26:15Z aaaaaa: draw a histogram
2020-10-27T05:26:28Z moon-child: it's pretty tight.  3.5-hr range total, but usually more like 1-2
2020-10-27T05:26:51Z aeth: Nilby: obviously it can't really be published without his permission
2020-10-27T05:27:30Z aeth: I guess we should ask first, though
2020-10-27T05:28:16Z aeth: beach: can we make a good morning graph?
2020-10-27T05:28:23Z Nilby: I'm more curious what's up with the 400 mostly silent users.
2020-10-27T05:29:16Z aeth: All of Freenode has been like that for years. A lot of that is various cloud bouncer services and bridges, like the Matrix bridge. We have some active users from Matrix, but I only notice most of them when the Matrix bridge goes down.
2020-10-27T05:29:55Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: I don't annoy you enough?
2020-10-27T05:30:07Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: you count as some active users
2020-10-27T05:30:20Z no-defun-allowed: Okay, I'll tell the rest to git gud.
2020-10-27T05:30:40Z aeth: I think Matrix disconnects you for inactivity eventually (but I'm not sure?)
2020-10-27T05:30:49Z moon-child: 'git: "gud" is not a git command. See "git --help".'
2020-10-27T05:30:50Z aeth: But it definitely inflates numbers over the past
2020-10-27T05:30:57Z aeth: moon-child: not yet
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2020-10-27T05:31:18Z moon-child: aeth: I wouldn't pin too much of it on matrix.  IRC has always been filled with lurkers
2020-10-27T05:31:20Z no-defun-allowed: After a month.
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2020-10-27T05:31:43Z aeth: moon-child: yes, but you used to be able to assume that joins/parts were joins/parts, but that's rarely the case with all of the bouncers/cloud/bridges/etc.
2020-10-27T05:31:56Z moon-child: well, fair enough
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2020-10-27T05:32:07Z aeth: It has been a gradual 10 or so year change
2020-10-27T05:32:15Z no-defun-allowed: And I believe that joins/parts do match up, otherwise the Freenode people would be very annoyed with the Matrix people.
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2020-10-27T05:33:17Z no-defun-allowed: And the Matrix people came up to me one day, annoyed that I hadn't given the bot permissions to kick inactive people.
2020-10-27T05:34:17Z aeth: slightly more on topic, but with all these bridges on Freenode now, there still isn't one from the CL world afaik...
2020-10-27T05:34:29Z aeth: do we have chat on a list of things to rewrite in Lisp yet?
2020-10-27T05:35:15Z no-defun-allowed: Everything. And we rewrite the stuff already in Lisp for good measure.
2020-10-27T05:35:29Z aeth: well, that goes without saying, really
2020-10-27T05:35:30Z no-defun-allowed: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html has some of the important parts though.
2020-10-27T05:35:41Z pillton: We could do with some more unit test frameworks.
2020-10-27T05:35:46Z aeth: JS already has everything and they rewrite JS things as new JS things regularly, anyway
2020-10-27T05:35:49Z aeth: CL could be the same...
2020-10-27T05:36:44Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: chat and voice chat are missing, but those are... maybe the two most important things for socializing on the internet (it does have an email client, though)
2020-10-27T05:37:06Z moon-child: I mean, an IRC client|server in lisp wouldn't be hard.  Latter wouldn't be very interesting, and as for the former there's erc et (probably) al
2020-10-27T05:37:08Z pillton: A CLIM Slack client?
2020-10-27T05:37:24Z Nilby: Pretty sure Shinmera already did chat thoroughly, e.g. Coleen et al.
2020-10-27T05:37:39Z aeth: pillton: sadly, I probably need a new test framework
2020-10-27T05:37:43Z aeth: (for my Scheme in CL)
2020-10-27T05:37:47Z aeth: (very niche use case)
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2020-10-27T05:38:35Z no-defun-allowed: That's easy, do arecord | lisp -e "(loop with stream = (usocket:socket-stream (usocket:socket-connect "conscordapp.com" 1337 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) for byte = (read-byte *standard-input*) do (write-byte stream))"
2020-10-27T05:38:47Z beach: aeth: Go right ahead.
2020-10-27T05:39:00Z no-defun-allowed: Listening is an exercise for the reader.
2020-10-27T05:39:07Z beach: Spelling and capitalization is consistent because it's an Eamcs abbrev.
2020-10-27T05:39:27Z beach: Emacs
2020-10-27T05:39:30Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: even easier with oss; cat /dev/dsp | lisp -e ...
2020-10-27T05:40:00Z aeth: beach: great!
2020-10-27T05:40:47Z no-defun-allowed: I have a graph of the cumulative distribution function for the UTC time of "gme RET". Now I'm wondering why I made the graph.
2020-10-27T05:41:00Z aeth: just an example from the public logs: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?from=2020-07-27T00%3A40%3A15&to=2020-10-27T12%3A40%3A15&search=Good%20morning%20everyone%21&by=beach
2020-10-27T05:41:11Z moon-child: no-defun-allowed: and having done that, it's relatively easy to read back audio, write it to stdout, and have a >/dev/dsp at the end
2020-10-27T05:41:40Z no-defun-allowed: Hence why it's an exercise for the reader. The server would be somewhat harder though.
2020-10-27T05:42:22Z aeth: moon-child: did you make a graph or were you just doing statistics?
2020-10-27T05:42:55Z aaaaaa: interesting notice at https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?from=2020-01-27T00%3A40%3A15&to=2020-10-27T12%3A40%3A15&search=Good%20morning%20everyone!&by=beach
2020-10-27T05:43:05Z aaaaaa: beach said "I have the same for "first-class global environments", "Common Lisp HyperSpec", "Common Lisp", "(first) Climacs", "Second Climacs", "Good morning everyone!", "Good afternoon everyone!", etc. etc."
2020-10-27T05:43:29Z no-defun-allowed: I'm also confused about what timezone the times are reported in; the mean is about 3:45 of some time zone.
2020-10-27T05:43:57Z aeth: that looks like UTC
2020-10-27T05:44:09Z aeth: so it changes by an hour with DST if you're looking at a year
2020-10-27T05:45:21Z no-defun-allowed: That's 4:30 then in UTC+1, I suppose.
2020-10-27T05:45:23Z aeth: summer time for France is CEST, or UTC+2... so 03:45 is 05:45
2020-10-27T05:45:39Z aeth: currently, 04:45 since I think Europe moved already?
2020-10-27T05:45:42Z pillton: beach: You have two shortcuts for etc.?
2020-10-27T05:46:31Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed it did. ("already" is strange from _here_, because we entered daylight savings on 2020-10-04)
2020-10-27T05:46:47Z aeth: and the US doesn't do it until after Halloween
2020-10-27T05:46:58Z aeth: International time zones in the fall is always weird
2020-10-27T05:47:03Z White_Flame laughs in Arizonan (no DST here)
2020-10-27T05:47:16Z aeth: Or, I guess it's the Australian spring...
2020-10-27T05:47:44Z White_Flame: I think there's 3 US states without DST
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2020-10-27T05:47:57Z aeth: hopefully 50 states soon
2020-10-27T05:48:07Z aeth: this is how we know that programmers don't have real political power yet
2020-10-27T05:50:51Z Nilby: Not time again. I've spent more leap seconds than have happend agonizing about timezones.
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2020-10-27T05:54:17Z TMA: aeth: it's 6:54 now
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2020-10-27T06:15:39Z beach: pillton: No abbrev for "etc.".
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2020-10-27T06:18:40Z beach: aaaaaa: Abbrevs save A LOT of time, and I am always surprised to learn how few people use them.
2020-10-27T06:19:18Z beach: aaaaaa: In addition, they decrease the number of typos, so there is less typing for correcting mistakes.
2020-10-27T06:20:37Z beach: aaaaaa: And I use abbrevs for correcting common typos too.  For instance, my fingers seem unable to type "the", and they more often come up with "teh".  So I have an abbrev for "teh" that expands to "the".
2020-10-27T06:20:40Z Nilby: M-x butterfly
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2020-10-27T06:22:42Z TMA: beach: I don't use them because the Czech language is heavily inflected so there is not much to gain, unless there is a good language model to help. Which there is not, unless GPT2 or GPT3 was hooked in.
2020-10-27T06:23:36Z beach: TMA: But you are typing English text right now.
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2020-10-27T06:24:11Z beach: All of my examples are from ERC mode.
2020-10-27T06:24:51Z TMA: sure. I would feel like having a split personality if I used for one language and not for the other
2020-10-27T06:25:05Z beach: That makes absolutely no sense to me.
2020-10-27T06:25:22Z beach: I don't use abbrevs for my native language.  Mainly because I don't use it very often.
2020-10-27T06:25:40Z beach: But I write a lot of French too, and there, abbrevs make things much faster as well.  Different abbrevs for different languages, of course.
2020-10-27T06:26:45Z beach: It sounds like an excuse not to try it out.
2020-10-27T06:28:11Z beach: But don't worry.  I am not forcing people to be more efficient.  I was just remarking on an observation.
2020-10-27T06:30:29Z TMA: I have tried to use them when I attempted to write my thesis , my setwas rather small, I felt there were not enough of the opportunities. Moreover the abbrevs I came up with started to clash with real words; I seemed unable to remember the unique ones. After I noticed I have forgotten to use the abbrev for the third time in a row I gave up
2020-10-27T06:31:18Z TMA: I have no hard data, but I _felt_ less efficient, not more
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2020-10-27T06:31:56Z aaaaaa: beach: yeah, right
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2020-10-27T06:40:57Z TMA: I needed to stop and think what was the abbrev for this even if I remembered there was in fact one
2020-10-27T06:42:59Z TMA: on the other hand, abbrevs (or smart completion) are awesome in code. I take m-v-b instead of multiple-value-bind. Not so for plain text.
2020-10-27T06:45:52Z beach: Well, there are two aspects to that observation.  One is that you would not start by defining abbrevs and then try to remember them.  You would start by observing words or phrases that you type frequently, and only then make an abbrev.
2020-10-27T06:45:59Z beach: The second observation is that you have to get used to your abbrevs so that you remember them.  That is the same problem with any learning.  In the beginning, it feels (and probably is) less productive, because you have to look things up fairly often.  Only after some time do the savings kick in.
2020-10-27T06:46:01Z beach: It is of utmost importance for productivity to avoid the temptation of always using what you know.  One must struggle in the beginning in order to get the great benefits later.
2020-10-27T06:46:48Z beach: It is the same thing with learning key sequences in an editor such as Emacs.
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2020-10-27T06:47:30Z beach: If you don't take the time and temporary loss of productivity, you will always be stuck with the minimum set of key sequences, or worse, use the mouse too often.
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2020-10-27T06:48:27Z beach: I have observed this again and again with my students.  They use the arrow keys to go from the middle of a function to the beginning of that function.  Even after I tell them about C-M-a and C-M-e, they continue with the arrow keys.
2020-10-27T06:48:58Z beach: I estimate that during a single 2h lab, the average students spends half an hour or so with unnecessary keystrokes.
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2020-10-27T06:49:48Z beach: But, I also know that this phenomenon is due to some very strong psychological forces that are tough to compete with.
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2020-10-27T06:49:59Z Nilby is addicted to ispell-complete-word, ya-snippets, templates.
2020-10-27T06:50:30Z beach: And I am totally convinced, that as software developers, we have the obligation to fight those forces as much as we possibly can.
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2020-10-27T06:53:00Z beach: In one of my industry talks, I present some figures about relative time for learning certain things, compared to the savings once these things have been learned.  Humans tend to get the proportions wrong by 2 orders of magnitude.  Not by calculating, but by letting the "fast" brain module make the decision rather than the "slow" one.
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2020-10-27T07:00:49Z autumn[m]: I remember seeing a quote, somewhere (maybe on something about plan9?) that despite people swearing up and down that using the keyboard felt faster, the people given a task and asked to do it with the mouse actually were. But they may not have been using something like vim or emacs, idk!
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2020-10-27T07:09:44Z beach: It is very hard to design experiments that show with some statistical significance such a result.
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2020-10-27T07:14:26Z aeth: to be fair on the students, they're probably new to Emacs
2020-10-27T07:14:42Z aeth: I probably learned about on average a command a month... which is a lot now, but it took time
2020-10-27T07:16:25Z beach: And since we are on the subject, another use for abbrevs is to avoid subjecting the other people in a conversation to your own abbreviations, like "idk", "thx", "afaict", etc.
2020-10-27T07:17:28Z beach: aeth: My point is that, despite being told about a faster way of doing it, they continued to use the painfully slow way.
2020-10-27T07:19:04Z Nilby: It might be hard to design an experiment, but it's easy to see the facts in a student lab.
2020-10-27T07:19:07Z beach: To become more productive, one has to pause each time and possibly look up the key sequence before taking the easy way out.  It feels horrible, but the gain is just around the corner, contrary to the estimate by the "fast" brain module.
2020-10-27T07:22:10Z beach: Learning can be painful.  But, by doing it frequently, one gets used to the feeling, and it can become quite enjoyable.
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2020-10-27T07:26:36Z beach: And again, as software developers, I think we have an obligation to become more productive.  Not just to make the industry as a whole more productive, but to prevent overwork and burnout.  By becoming more productive, one can take more time for personal activities, like writing a library, or (very often) learning even more stuff to become even more productive.
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2020-10-27T07:29:40Z Nilby: Sadly now with my Lisp environment fairly decent, my limitation is almost mostly in my slow/no brain module.
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2020-10-27T07:35:10Z charlie770: Is there a book or an article, where I can see common-lisp app development in action?
2020-10-27T07:36:09Z phoe: Little Bits of Lisp, a Youtube channel
2020-10-27T07:37:08Z charlie770: thanks
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2020-10-27T07:41:03Z beach: Nilby: The terminology "fast" and "slow" brain module is from the work of Kahneman "Thinking, fast and slow".  The fast module is the one that is very bad with calculations and statistics.  Trust the slow one more.
2020-10-27T07:41:53Z beach: Nilby: I recommend reading the book during the time your colleagues spend their day with unnecessary keystrokes.
2020-10-27T07:42:34Z charlie770: "Little bits of lisp" looks like a common-lisp tutorial. What I want is development of a full app. For eg. writing a compiler
2020-10-27T07:42:58Z beach: charlie770: A compiler for what language?
2020-10-27T07:43:32Z beach: charlie770: There is "LiSP" and "Anatomy of Lisp" for Lisp-like languages.
2020-10-27T07:43:42Z beach: minion: Please tell charlie770 about LiSP.
2020-10-27T07:43:42Z minion: charlie770: look at LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. <http://pagesperso-systeme.lip6.fr/Christian.Queinnec/WWW/LiSP.html>
2020-10-27T07:45:01Z charlie770: beach: If I wanted an interpreter for say.. python?
2020-10-27T07:45:15Z beach: charlie770: Also for writing a compiler, you probably need something like the books by Andy Appel and the one by Muchnick.
2020-10-27T07:46:02Z beach: charlie770: Such a thing, written in Common Lisp, would very likely make heavy use of CLOS, so that would be a good start to get more familiar with.
2020-10-27T07:46:03Z no-defun-allowed: A compiler is a very hard "full app".
2020-10-27T07:47:50Z charlie770: beach: I dislike object-oriented-programming!
2020-10-27T07:48:16Z no-defun-allowed: Too bad for you then!
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2020-10-27T07:49:08Z beach: charlie770: Then you should know that CLOS is not like traditional object-oriented programming.
2020-10-27T07:49:26Z beach: charlie770: And, yes, as no-defun-allowed said, to bad for you.
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2020-10-27T07:50:54Z aeth: charlie770: CLOS is good if you dislike OOP
2020-10-27T07:51:13Z aeth: there's almost no difference between DEFUN and DEFMETHOD
2020-10-27T07:51:20Z charlie770: aeth: why?
2020-10-27T07:51:45Z aeth: Most languages (1) have your methods live with the class definition and (2) give methods a special infix dot syntax
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2020-10-27T07:52:54Z aeth: so you have to live with their style of OOP (especially in Java) at the core of the language
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2020-10-27T07:53:34Z aeth: On the other hand, CLOS lets you treat your methods mostly like functions, and you mostly use them for the polymorphism.
2020-10-27T07:54:26Z charlie770: aeth: I don't know what polymorphism is. could you explain?
2020-10-27T07:54:32Z aeth: You don't have to really use CLOS, but more importantly, if someone else is heavily using CLOS in their library's API that you're using, you don't really notice.
2020-10-27T07:55:59Z aeth: charlie770: (defmethod foobar ((obj integer)) 1) (defmethod foobar ((obj string)) 2) (values (foobar 42) (foobar "hi")) => 1 2
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2020-10-27T07:56:17Z aeth: Different method selection based on the type of the argument to FOOBAR
2020-10-27T07:56:23Z no-defun-allowed: charlie770: I'm curious as to how you formed an opinion on object oriented programming then.
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2020-10-27T07:56:54Z aeth: And FOOBAR itself is a generic function that is, in this example, implicitly created... You could put (defgeneric foobar (obj)) in front if you want
2020-10-27T07:58:08Z aeth: CLOS in particular does polymorphism based on the class of the argument, where classes are a subset of types.
2020-10-27T08:00:29Z charlie770: aeth: I'm aware of "selecting a function based on arguments" from SICP. I just never linked it to the word polymorphism.
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2020-10-27T08:00:59Z easye: Does anyone know if under Windows SBCL expands a #\~ to a user home directory when parsing Pathname namestrings?
2020-10-27T08:01:18Z aeth: charlie770: there are a few other phrases, like e.g. "dynamic dispatch" (which in this case also means it's done at runtime rather than at compile time)
2020-10-27T08:01:34Z aeth: (the selection, I mean)
2020-10-27T08:01:42Z charlie770: aeth: nice
2020-10-27T08:01:50Z charlie770: aeth: tell me more!
2020-10-27T08:02:14Z phoe: easye:
2020-10-27T08:02:15Z phoe: * (uiop:native-namestring #p"~/")
2020-10-27T08:02:15Z phoe: "C:\\cygwin64\\home\\clci\\"
2020-10-27T08:02:40Z easye: phoe: thanks
2020-10-27T08:02:43Z charlie770: aeth: do other languages have dynamic dispatch?
2020-10-27T08:02:48Z phoe: but (namestring #p"~/") ;=> "~/" so beware
2020-10-27T08:03:01Z phoe: (it's good to have three VMs with Lisp set up!)
2020-10-27T08:03:04Z easye: Ah.
2020-10-27T08:03:26Z no-defun-allowed: Dynamic dispatch is a defining feature of object-oriented programming, and I suppose it kinda exists with typeclasses in some functional languages.
2020-10-27T08:03:51Z easye has one Windows VM running that is struggling on ~2014 hardware.
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2020-10-27T08:04:25Z aeth: charlie770: most will have dynamic or static dispatch. Iirc, C++ is an example of the static kind, where the information is available at compile time. A quick search shows that it does have some dynamic dispatch, too, but it's very different from CLOS's because CLOS has multiple dispatch
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2020-10-27T08:04:31Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch
2020-10-27T08:04:47Z aeth: Of course, examples quickly become too large for one line.
2020-10-27T08:05:04Z charlie770: now tell me how CLOS is different from other object-oriented systems?
2020-10-27T08:05:53Z aeth: Just one method will do, I guess. (defmethod foobar ((obj1 string) (obj2 number)) (values obj1 obj2))
2020-10-27T08:05:59Z aeth: It can dispatch based on both of those arguments.
2020-10-27T08:06:14Z aeth: Most method systems only dispatch on the first, often called something like "self"
2020-10-27T08:06:34Z aeth: Many hide the first argument since there's always going to be one and only one like that in a method
2020-10-27T08:07:12Z aeth: The typical example here is a collision method, and Wikipedia has it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch#Common_Lisp
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2020-10-27T08:08:24Z aeth: Notice that 2 classes and 2 arguments means 4 methods... so there can be a lot of combinations if you really wanted to take advantage of multiple dispatch.
2020-10-27T08:09:18Z aeth: This chapter from PCL goes into detail... http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html
2020-10-27T08:09:51Z charlie770: aeth: so other languages don't have multiple dispatch?
2020-10-27T08:10:09Z aeth: (the section in that chapter that's relevant is called "multimethods")
2020-10-27T08:10:15Z aeth: most don't have multiple dispatch, but Wikipedia has a few other examples
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2020-10-27T08:10:59Z aeth: Wikipedia has examples in C#, Common Lisp, Julia, Next Generation Shell, and Raku.
2020-10-27T08:11:33Z aeth: Common Lisp rarely is the only language with a feature (maybe just the Common Lisp condition system?), but it has an interesting combination of features.
2020-10-27T08:12:00Z no-defun-allowed: Dylan has a condition system, but it's basically the Common Lisp condition system.
2020-10-27T08:12:38Z charlie770: aeth: The problem with classes, like macros is they that they can be used everywhere. You can wrap them around anything and still have a working program. People use oop as a silver bullet for every problem. They just don’t know what the problem is. Makes you wonder if there’s a method to his madness😉. If I wanted to understand oop, I think I need to know when not to use it.
2020-10-27T08:13:22Z aeth: charlie770: yeah, but CL is (mostly) not like that.
2020-10-27T08:13:29Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, and?
2020-10-27T08:13:36Z aeth: CL just gives you a bunch of different equally-powerful tools to solve a problem and lets you decide which ones to use
2020-10-27T08:13:54Z phoe: if you only have a hammer then all problems start looking like nails
2020-10-27T08:14:08Z phoe: that's the case with e.g. Java which has an "everything is a class or its subpart" approach
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2020-10-27T08:14:43Z phoe: CLOS is optional do indulge in when you program in CL, since CL is a multiparadigm language and doesn't limit the programmer in choices like Java does
2020-10-27T08:14:47Z aeth: As I said a while ago, you can simultaneously entirely avoid CLOS in your code, and not even notice if other people's code that you're using is written via CLOS... mainly due to the uniform syntax and the focus on generic functions (verbs, not nouns)
2020-10-27T08:15:17Z aeth: Lots of languages give you the first option, but then if you use someone's library, you're going to have to deal with foo.bar()s
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2020-10-27T08:16:27Z aeth: Okay, you'll probably notice MAKE-INSTANCE, but I like wrapping (MAKE-INSTANCE 'FOO ...) with a MAKE-FOO function, personally.
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2020-10-27T08:16:58Z charlie770: So dynamic-dispatch, multiple-dispatch. What else sets CLOS apart?
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2020-10-27T08:17:35Z no-defun-allowed: Multiple inheritance and packages used to (approximately) enforce encapsulation instead of class relations.
2020-10-27T08:17:54Z charlie770: no-defun-allowed: what is encapsulation?
2020-10-27T08:18:49Z aeth: With CLOS you have methods living with generic functions instead of with the classes... and the uniform syntax (generic functions are just functions) rather than the typical dot notation of method calls (which is infix and encourages noun-based APIs that focus on the object)
2020-10-27T08:18:52Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure if I should have expected you to know or not, given that you started this discussion with "I dislike object-oriented-programming!"
2020-10-27T08:19:11Z aeth: s/and the uniform syntax/and you have the uniform syntax/
2020-10-27T08:19:25Z charlie770: no-defun-allowed: because it confuses me!
2020-10-27T08:19:40Z no-defun-allowed: Encapsulation is how you stop the external world from modifying the stuff that you don't want it to modify.
2020-10-27T08:20:10Z cl-arthur: charlie770: Would recommend you spend more time with it to the point where it's understandable and known if your main irk is confusion
2020-10-27T08:20:18Z aeth: charlie770: Encapsulation is often seen as an essential OOP feature, especially by C++/Java programmers, but in many languages it's just by convention. Really, I don't see it as an essential part of OOP because everyone does encapsulation to some extent. (At least, if it's some form of structured programming.)
2020-10-27T08:20:36Z aeth: One problem with OOP is that there's no one consistent definition
2020-10-27T08:21:25Z aeth: I'd personally define it as hiding private things
2020-10-27T08:21:45Z aeth: Often, languages do just have a "private" keyword that they put in front of their methods and/or slots
2020-10-27T08:22:43Z charlie770: cl-arthur: I try to learn it. Then again, after a while, I think "I could probably do all this with macros"
2020-10-27T08:22:44Z aeth: CLOS is more in the encapsulation-by-convention camp (naming conventions, to be specific), like Python. Iirc, Python uses __foo (or is it __foo__?) while CL uses %foo
2020-10-27T08:23:05Z aeth: Arguably, the only true way to encapsulate in CL is with a closure (which is an entirely different kind of thing than OOP)
2020-10-27T08:23:50Z no-defun-allowed: You also have packages, and an agreement with the client that they can't use internal symbols and/or SLOT-VALUE.
2020-10-27T08:23:55Z charlie770: aeth: I'm guessing closures are how they implemented CLOS?
2020-10-27T08:24:13Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: yes, but packages are a weak form of encapsulation because you can just do foo::bar and access the private thing even if foo:bar doesn't work
2020-10-27T08:24:19Z aeth: closures are basically unbreakable
2020-10-27T08:24:19Z no-defun-allowed: No, CLOS is not implemented with closures.
2020-10-27T08:24:53Z aeth: charlie770: you could implement OOP with closures... but CLOS (probably) isn't implemented via closures in any implementation
2020-10-27T08:25:04Z aeth: Some Scheme and/or academic exercises do things like this, though
2020-10-27T08:25:07Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: Yes, then you write in the agreement that the client loses their keyboard and monitor if they do that.
2020-10-27T08:25:22Z no-defun-allowed: Same goes for dunders (the underscore wrapping in Python), I suppose.
2020-10-27T08:25:59Z aeth: charlie770: closures vs OOP is probably too deep of a concept right now, though
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2020-10-27T08:28:59Z charlie770: do you guys read code(from github)?
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2020-10-27T08:34:38Z aeth: sometimes
2020-10-27T08:34:58Z aeth: I can't think of any good examples to read at the moment, though
2020-10-27T08:35:16Z charlie770: aeth: I'd like to start reading some code!
2020-10-27T08:35:22Z phoe: charlie770: any particular kind of code you'd like to start reading?
2020-10-27T08:35:42Z charlie770: phoe: common-lisp?
2020-10-27T08:35:55Z phoe: yes, yes, but what subset of common lisp
2020-10-27T08:36:09Z charlie770: phoe: not libraries.
2020-10-27T08:36:29Z charlie770: phoe: maybe an application.
2020-10-27T08:36:35Z phoe: so end-user applications, hmmm
2020-10-27T08:36:43Z charlie770: phoe: yes
2020-10-27T08:37:13Z aeth: What kind of application? There are some games, e.g. https://borodust.org/projects/trivial-gamekit/
2020-10-27T08:37:29Z charlie770: aeth: not games!
2020-10-27T08:37:33Z phoe: there exists https://github.com/atlas-engineer/nyxt whose sources I have almost never read so I cannot say anything about the quality of the code there
2020-10-27T08:37:42Z phoe: this is as close to an application as I can imagine
2020-10-27T08:37:44Z aeth: That's what I was going to go to next :-)
2020-10-27T08:37:52Z jdz: Maybe Quicklisp?
2020-10-27T08:38:00Z jdz: Very self-contained.
2020-10-27T08:38:01Z phoe: ^
2020-10-27T08:38:24Z charlie770: I'll check it out(nyxt)
2020-10-27T08:38:29Z aeth: The most popular application might be pgloader... which is apparently about migrating to PostgreSQL. https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/
2020-10-27T08:38:46Z phoe: oh yes! pgloader
2020-10-27T08:38:55Z charlie770: what is pgloader?
2020-10-27T08:38:57Z phoe: it's an amazing piece of Lisp software
2020-10-27T08:39:03Z phoe: a utility for database migration
2020-10-27T08:39:16Z phoe: from X to PostgreSQL, where X aims to be literally any database
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2020-10-27T08:45:08Z aeth: phoe: I want to migrate from PostgreSQL to PostgreSQL!
2020-10-27T08:46:56Z cl-arthur: aeth: #'identity
2020-10-27T08:47:01Z charlie770: /away Duty calls!
2020-10-27T08:47:02Z charlie770:  
2020-10-27T08:47:50Z aeth: they... thought of it. https://pgloader.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ref/pgsql.html
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2020-10-27T08:53:43Z phoe: aeth: yes
2020-10-27T08:54:09Z phoe: as I said, literally any database
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2020-10-27T09:17:21Z beach: Wow, this discussion reminds me of a student I once had, who moved to Bordeaux to avoid Ada, which was taught at the university of his home town.  But after I questioned him, he admitted to knowing nothing about Ada at all.  Disliking object-oriented programming while not knowing about encapsulation, polymorphism, or dynamic dispatch seems very similar to me.
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2020-10-27T09:17:49Z phoe: it's easy to dislike that what you don't know
2020-10-27T09:18:11Z beach: charlie770: I think you need to work on your basic programming skills and basic knowledge about software development tools before you can hope to start implementing an interpreter or a compiler.
2020-10-27T09:18:21Z phoe: it's even easier if you dislike the lack of knowledge itself and then project it onto whatever
2020-10-27T09:18:46Z beach: phoe: It is not very smart, though, to dislike something you don't know.
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2020-10-27T09:19:19Z beach: It can have serious consequences to one's ability to do good work.
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2020-10-27T09:20:28Z phoe: beach: sure it's not beneficial, but it's common
2020-10-27T09:20:38Z beach: Sadly, yes.
2020-10-27T09:20:46Z phoe: that's just a common way human minds work, that's the reality
2020-10-27T09:20:53Z charlie770: beach: I don't understand oop. Maybe that's why I dislike it. Maybe also because I could get away with it(using macros).
2020-10-27T09:21:13Z phoe: the best thing is to acknowledge it and move on with life while trying to fix the ignorance to the best of one's ability, no point in dwelling on it too much
2020-10-27T09:21:35Z dim: hi folks!
2020-10-27T09:21:43Z phoe: hey dim!
2020-10-27T09:21:50Z no-defun-allowed: Hello dim
2020-10-27T09:22:45Z charlie770: beach: do you think learning object-oriented-programming will make me a better programmer?
2020-10-27T09:23:00Z beach: charlie770: If you dislike things just because you don't understand them, you will be very limited in what you can do in the future.
2020-10-27T09:23:07Z beach: charlie770: Yes, it will.
2020-10-27T09:23:08Z dim: yeah pgloader can be used to move from Postgres to Postgres, the main use case is to have a alternative to ALTER TABLE foo ALTER COLUMN bar TYPE bigint USING processing_function(bar); but well we didn't solve all of the concurrency issues at the moment
2020-10-27T09:23:31Z beach: charlie770: Because you will then have an informed opinion about it, and you can make choices based on knowing what you are talking about.
2020-10-27T09:23:41Z dim: charlie770: do you think learning hammer will make someone a better carpenter? ;-)
2020-10-27T09:23:48Z beach: charlie770: That might be to avoid object-oriented programming, but at least you then know why.
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2020-10-27T09:24:15Z charlie770: beach: you're right.
2020-10-27T09:24:34Z phoe: learning multiple ways of programming indeed makes one a better programmer
2020-10-27T09:25:17Z beach: charlie770: I don't use traditional object-oriented programming, where encapsulation and abstraction go together.  I much prefer CLOS-style programming, whatever you call it, where encapsulation is handled by the package system and the abstraction is done with generic functions.
2020-10-27T09:25:36Z dim: +1 to that
2020-10-27T09:25:41Z beach: charlie770: But then, I understand both styles, and I have made my decision based on that knowledge.
2020-10-27T09:26:22Z dim: also when all you have is object oriented as the only architecture tool, I tend to dislike those programming languages (Java is the main example I can think of)
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2020-10-27T09:27:43Z beach: dim: Right.  For example, in order to create an anonymous function, some languages require (or used to require) that you actually create a class with a single method in it.
2020-10-27T09:27:48Z no-defun-allowed: I work with both frequently, as I implement message-passing OO using CLOS.
2020-10-27T09:28:17Z charlie770: no-defun-allowed: what is message-passing?
2020-10-27T09:28:25Z dim: beach: same with closures being only available within a class construct in Python, I guess?
2020-10-27T09:28:38Z no-defun-allowed: (And the inspirations for the former, Erlang and Smalltalk, to some extent, allow one to produce closures.)
2020-10-27T09:28:43Z beach: dim: I guess so, yes.
2020-10-27T09:29:47Z beach: I also recently realized that, in some object-oriented languages, you defeat encapsulation entirely when you make a subclass.  Then it is easy to, by accident, violate the original protocol.
2020-10-27T09:30:07Z dim: a friend of mine loved closures when he taught himself Clojure (the lisp inspired language in the JVM) but always though he wasn't smart enough for OOP, I showed him a class in Python is the same thing as a closure in Clojure and he was like “wow”, I hope he know realises he's smart enough ;-)
2020-10-27T09:30:16Z beach: With CLOS, the package system still protects from such accidents.
2020-10-27T09:30:36Z phoe: a closure is just a poor man's object
2020-10-27T09:30:57Z phoe: the same way an object is just a poor man's closure
2020-10-27T09:31:02Z no-defun-allowed: charlie770: Message passing is what most people think of when they think of object-oriented programming, where objects collaborate by sending "messages" to each other.
2020-10-27T09:34:21Z no-defun-allowed: That's not quite the same as objects calling methods on each other, as messages can also be passed around as objects, allowing one to do a few things that would be tricky otherwise, such as selectively passing on messages to another object.
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2020-10-27T09:41:10Z no-defun-allowed: But you don't need to know much about that now.
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2020-10-27T10:15:23Z TMA: speaking of message-passing and OOP, I want to point out the power of reification. reification is an enabler for neat things. in the same vein is reification of computation environments as invented by beach here -- enabler for nifty things
2020-10-27T10:19:57Z beach: Or of classes and generic functions in CLOS.
2020-10-27T10:20:20Z beach: ... and slots, methods, etc.
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2020-10-27T10:44:25Z TMA: symbols even -- reified names
2020-10-27T10:44:35Z TMA: in a sense it enables the programmer to do something that would otherwise be restricted to the compiler/system
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2020-10-27T10:45:06Z TMA: and that's why I love common lisp.
2020-10-27T10:49:32Z beach: Definitely symbols, yes.  And packages.
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2020-10-27T13:37:26Z Josh_2: Afternoon
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2020-10-27T13:38:02Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-10-27T14:54:56Z clockboi: Is Sicp worth it, even when learning Common Lisp?
2020-10-27T14:55:59Z jackdaniel: it teaches many important things about programming in general
2020-10-27T14:56:01Z jackdaniel: so yes
2020-10-27T14:56:08Z edgar-rft: SICP teaches programming in general using Scheme examples, but it's not necessarily only for Scheme or Lisp
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2020-10-27T14:56:45Z clockboi: Are Sheme and CL that different?
2020-10-27T14:56:54Z jackdaniel: yes
2020-10-27T14:57:03Z clockboi: ( sorry, just start learning CL two days ago )
2020-10-27T14:57:33Z jackdaniel: while they belong loosely to the same family of programming languages, they are very different (both design- and community- wise)
2020-10-27T14:57:44Z edgar-rft: clockboi: no worries, there's lots of historical quirks in Lisp, don't be afraid to ask  :-)
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2020-10-27T15:02:15Z phoe: if you want to, you can do all of SICP in Common Lisp; the most important difference you will encounter is FUNCALL which does not exist in Scheme but is necessary in Common Lisp
2020-10-27T15:04:46Z phoe: another one is the concept of NIL in Common Lisp which has no Scheme counterpart
2020-10-27T15:05:07Z jackdaniel: nil is a quirk, not a concept
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2020-10-27T15:12:46Z beach: clockboi: There are books specifically for Common Lisp, in case you already know the basics of programming in general.
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2020-10-27T15:17:06Z gothnbass: Practical Common Lisp is one good book for that.
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2020-10-27T15:20:25Z p_l: clockboi: also, consider that the amount of scheme you're supposed to know to finish SICP is quite small
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2020-10-27T15:39:20Z docl: I just did SICP 1.1 in CL, one thing I noticed was define doesn't exist, instead you have to do defun for functions. and the paren structure for that is slightly different.
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2020-10-27T15:40:15Z beach: Also, using DEFUN inside a function means something different from using DEFINE to define a function inside another one in Scheme.
2020-10-27T15:40:31Z beach: Nested DEFINEs in Scheme translate to LABELS in Common Lisp.
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2020-10-27T15:41:04Z beach: I wouldn't recommend that way of working, but many people seem to think it is OK.
2020-10-27T15:41:19Z beach: I mean, doing SICP exercises in Common Lisp.
2020-10-27T15:41:26Z docl: good to know
2020-10-27T15:43:22Z jdz: c
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2020-10-27T16:10:27Z cl-arthur: beach: Don't forget SICP in javascript etc. :)
2020-10-27T16:10:33Z phoe: oh no
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2020-10-27T16:30:51Z phoe: https://www.apress.com/gp/book/9781484264270
2020-10-27T16:30:53Z phoe: oooh
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2020-10-27T16:32:52Z gothnbass: Cool!
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2020-10-27T16:34:52Z gothnbass: "Digitally watermarked, DRM-free" - yes!
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2020-10-27T17:21:31Z gothnbass: Tracking down a bug relating to `html-template:fill-and-print-template`. Does anybody know of a non-obvious dependency on `pwd`? It works just fine if I'm running from the parent directory of `/templates`, but breaks with a `format` error otherwise.
2020-10-27T17:21:33Z dim: I like PAIP intro chapter about Common Lisp for people who already know how to write some code
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2020-10-27T17:31:15Z gothnbass: Never mind; I found it. I'm an idiot, and I hard-coded that path into TMPL_INCLUDE statements in the templates.
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2020-10-27T17:41:07Z Xach: cmucl.org ssl is fixed!
2020-10-27T17:41:09Z Xach: phew
2020-10-27T17:41:47Z phoe: <3
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2020-10-27T22:09:16Z pillton: The CMUCL installation instruction doesn't specify how to get a GnuPG key to check the digests of the releases.
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2020-10-27T22:25:31Z Xach: pillton: wherever fine keys are sold?
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2020-10-27T22:31:10Z easye: Actually, getting "fine" GPG keys these days is hard.  <https://gist.github.com/rjhansen/67ab921ffb4084c865b3618d6955275f>
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2020-10-27T23:00:12Z pillton: Xach: Most likely! I have submitted an issue.
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2020-10-28T02:00:54Z g0d_shatter: does anyone know if there are any bindings somewhere for manipulating GDB, with common lisp? not debugging common lisp WITH gdb, but manipulating GDB debugging something else, specifcally the debugger state, the information about the program being debugged, as there is with Guile Scheme
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2020-10-28T03:59:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-28T04:03:46Z cer0: o/
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2020-10-28T05:47:40Z jasom: ugh... I couldn't find anything to parse rfc-2822 dates in lisp; this is what happens when I need to parse something late at night: https://gist.github.com/jasom/57333266b96dfde352956f779dd366d1
2020-10-28T05:48:57Z jasom: I predict that I will not like that code in the morning.
2020-10-28T05:49:08Z beach: Sounds plausible.
2020-10-28T05:50:17Z no-defun-allowed: You made parser combinators again?
2020-10-28T05:50:43Z jasom: trivial-rfc-1123 could probably do it if I stripped comments first; I don't think any non-comment parts of the string contain parenthesis
2020-10-28T05:51:01Z jasom: no-defun-allowed: nope, it's not even remotely functional; just classic unstructured recursive-descent
2020-10-28T05:51:16Z no-defun-allowed: That is true.
2020-10-28T05:52:00Z jasom: still more readable than a regex though
2020-10-28T05:52:41Z no-defun-allowed: I thought it looked like something I would write with esrap, which in turn looks like combinators, but it is in fact a packrat parser.
2020-10-28T05:53:17Z Nilby: jasom: I don't think it's too bad this way. It's not much different than if you made an esrap parser, and performance is probably not a problem.
2020-10-28T05:54:03Z jasom: Nilby: if I changed the parse-error to returning a known value it would probably be faster than esrap; languages with limited backtracking are ususally slower in packrat
2020-10-28T05:55:36Z jasom: because packrat parsers memoize everything just in case backtracking might happen (which is a worst-case performance win in highly backtracking grammars, but a constant-factor loss in grammars with little (or no) backtracking)
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2020-10-28T05:58:11Z Nilby: I've done small parsers like this and they seem too work fine. This one looks fairly clear. With a little documentation it could be an instant classic.
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2020-10-28T06:57:07Z charlie770: If I wanted to understand mezzano's source where would I start?
2020-10-28T07:00:38Z easye: Another month, another sbcl release <http://sbcl.org/news.html#2.0.10>.  Kudos to the Kadence!
2020-10-28T07:01:30Z edgar-rft: charlie770: there's a #mezzano channel if nobody knows an answer here
2020-10-28T07:02:14Z charlie770: edgar-rft: I already tried that yesterday. No answered!
2020-10-28T07:02:50Z charlie770: *No one answered!
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2020-10-28T07:08:43Z charlie770: edgar-rft: do you know anything about mezzano?
2020-10-28T07:08:47Z edgar-rft: charlie770: There are not many mezzano users yet and I'm not one of them. But when I look at the github code I think this is the file where everything starts -> https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/blob/master/system/cold-start.lisp
2020-10-28T07:09:23Z charlie770: edgar-rft: 👍
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2020-10-28T07:16:46Z beach: charlie770: I am curious.  What made you choose that particular project?
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2020-10-28T07:22:36Z charlie770: beach: I wanted to start reading common-lisp code and wanted to see how operating systems worked. By reading mezzano, I can do both.
2020-10-28T07:22:57Z beach: Got it.
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2020-10-28T07:27:55Z Nilby: beach: Thanks for the book recommendation. My internet went out before I could reply yesterday.
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2020-10-28T07:29:31Z beach: Nilby: Sure.  Remind me what book that was?
2020-10-28T07:31:11Z Nilby: beach: Thinking, fast and slow
2020-10-28T07:31:34Z beach: Ah, yes.  Excellent book.
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2020-10-28T13:44:06Z sm2n: is there a way to get a compile warning when defining a function with a method call with an invalid method combination?
2020-10-28T13:44:49Z sm2n: for example (defmethod foo ((a float)) (print a)) (defun bar () (foo "something"))
2020-10-28T13:45:30Z sm2n: obviously this can't be an error, since you may define a valid method later, but it'd be nice to know if the method existed at the time of definition
2020-10-28T13:45:39Z sm2n: sbcl doesn't say anything
2020-10-28T13:47:48Z beach: sm2n: I see no mention of method combinations in your example.
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2020-10-28T13:48:38Z beach: You probably means something else, like whether FOO has any applicable methods for the argument you are passing.
2020-10-28T13:49:15Z beach: sm2n: But that would require solving the halting problem.  Consider (defun bar () (foo (ackermann 4 5)))
2020-10-28T13:49:59Z sm2n: beach, "applicable methods" is what I mean
2020-10-28T13:50:07Z beach: sm2n: Or, more direct (defun bar () (if <...> (foo 1.3) (foo "something")))
2020-10-28T13:50:19Z sm2n: in the ackermann case, you can still tell based on the type
2020-10-28T13:50:48Z beach: Not in general.
2020-10-28T13:51:14Z beach: You don't know what type the value returned by the function is unless you execute it, or solve the halting problem.
2020-10-28T13:51:21Z sm2n: yes, but it is possible on a best-effort basis
2020-10-28T13:51:51Z sm2n: sbcl already calculates return types to the best of its ability, I would just like it if that information was used here
2020-10-28T13:52:15Z sm2n: if your return type is T there's not a whole lot you can do
2020-10-28T13:52:27Z sm2n: but in every other case you should get some useful information
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2020-10-28T13:57:29Z scymtym: how would you define mutually recursive methods without getting a warning? as in (defmethod foo ((x string)) (if … (foo 1) …)) (defmethod foo ((x integer)) (if … (foo "") …))
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2020-10-28T14:00:35Z scymtym: you could probably delay the warning until the end of the compilation unit, but it would be kind of hard to avoid unwarranted warnings in general
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2020-10-28T14:00:57Z sm2n: if I were defining those interactively, I would consider the warning as desirable even in that case, and if you were working at the file level, the information necessary to suppress the warning should be available to the compiler
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2020-10-28T14:02:43Z sm2n: sbcl already gives similar warnings for regular function calls
2020-10-28T14:03:33Z scymtym: for simple cases, sure. but it is really hard to know in advance which methods will be applicable when the call is executed
2020-10-28T14:04:26Z _death: with some styles, it's also quite common to compile calls to a generic function before any methods are added to it
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2020-10-28T14:08:09Z sm2n: I see
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2020-10-28T14:30:47Z biglama: Hi guys, I have a beginner question without answers on Google : how can a sort characters in a single string (Emacs lisp) ?
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2020-10-28T14:31:28Z biglama: My closest attempt : (sort (vconcat "ba") #'string<)
2020-10-28T14:31:44Z _death: you can also see calling a generic function with no applicable methods as a normal thing, since by CLOS protocol, no-applicable-method gets called.. in many cases its default method is to signal an error, and there's nothing special going on
2020-10-28T14:37:38Z Josh_2: biglama this channel isn't for Elisp but Common Lisp
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2020-10-28T14:39:26Z Josh_2: but (sort <string> #'string<) works just fine in CL
2020-10-28T14:39:57Z _death: no, you need to compare characters.. and in elisp, characters are integers
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2020-10-28T14:40:13Z biglama: Josh_2 sorry, i'll try #emacs then
2020-10-28T14:40:40Z Josh_2: _death: (sort "abcd" #'string>) -> "dcba"
2020-10-28T14:40:51Z _death: Josh_2: that's because string< accepts string designators
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2020-10-28T15:25:34Z warweasle: How do I get cl-ppcre to match the beginning of a string?
2020-10-28T15:26:19Z _death: ^?
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2020-10-28T15:30:52Z warweasle: "The symbols :START-ANCHOR, :END-ANCHOR, :MODELESS-START-ANCHOR, :MODELESS-END-ANCHOR, and :MODELESS-END-ANCHOR-NO-NEWLINE are equivalent to Perl's "^", "$", "\A", "\Z", and "\z" respectively."
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2020-10-28T15:35:03Z warweasle: I think I figured it out...but it's weird.
2020-10-28T15:35:18Z Bike: what's weird about it
2020-10-28T15:36:21Z Bike: it's perl-compatible regexes, so the beginning of a string is ^, like perl
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2020-10-28T15:36:37Z dlowe: (unless multi-line mode is enabled)
2020-10-28T15:36:41Z dlowe: (like perl)
2020-10-28T15:37:07Z dlowe: if you want to match the beginning of the string even with multiline mode, that's what \A is for
2020-10-28T15:37:36Z warweasle: ^ didn't work.
2020-10-28T15:37:44Z Bike: how so?
2020-10-28T15:39:39Z warweasle: Ok. Maybe I'm just flustered but I swear it didn't match a few minutes ago."
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2020-10-28T15:46:09Z Josh_2: warweasle: have you seen cl-str? it has a function called "starts-with"
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2020-10-28T15:49:25Z warweasle: Josh_2: I'm trying to convert some filenames and directries into sql data...so I need regex power.
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2020-10-28T15:53:59Z Josh_2: Okay cool, the library is very helpful for adding the trivial string manipulation you would find in other languages
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2020-10-28T16:20:14Z semz: On the topic of cl-ppcre, are there ways to add parse tree aliases with parameters? While I like the sexpr method, things like (:NON-GREEDY-REPETITION 0 1 "a") often make it less readable than the string version and define-parse-tree-synonym can apparently only create static parse trees and you can't seem to make shorthands like 'ngrep -> :non-greedy-repetition.
2020-10-28T16:23:03Z semz: Of course I could just calculate them at runtime, but that'd lock me out of the neat compiler macros.
2020-10-28T16:25:03Z Bike: doesn't look like it... it doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to extend the library with a more general macro system if one wanted
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2020-10-28T17:24:23Z dbotton: I noticed that I was able to change in place a constant list. SBCL through a warning which is nice. Is that techincaly a practice just fround upon or is it considered erroneous to do such a thing?
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2020-10-28T17:25:38Z dbotton: or maybe ok even to use?
2020-10-28T17:25:40Z beach: What practice is that?
2020-10-28T17:25:58Z beach: Changing anything in a constant list is undefined behavior.
2020-10-28T17:26:02Z dbotton: To change a memeber of a defconstant list
2020-10-28T17:26:17Z dbotton: ok
2020-10-28T17:26:33Z beach: It is not the DEFCONSTANT that matters.  It has to do whether the list is literal data or not.
2020-10-28T17:26:40Z beach: Did you define it with '(...)?
2020-10-28T17:28:05Z dbotton: (defconstant c '(1 2 3 4))
2020-10-28T17:28:14Z beach: DEFCONSTANT is not behaving well when the value is something other than very simple objects.
2020-10-28T17:28:18Z beach: Then you are not allowed to modify it.  And that is true even if it is assigned to a variable with DEFVAR or SETQ.
2020-10-28T17:28:28Z dbotton: (setf (nth 2 c) 5)
2020-10-28T17:29:03Z beach: Yes, you are not allowed to do that.  But that is true even if you use DEFPARAMETER rather than DEFCONSTANT.
2020-10-28T17:29:21Z dbotton: I actually frist did a let then changed it and worked then tried out side of it
2020-10-28T17:29:46Z dbotton: what do you mean about defparameter?
2020-10-28T17:30:02Z dbotton: You can't change members?
2020-10-28T17:30:06Z beach: (defparameter c '(...)) would have the same restriction.
2020-10-28T17:30:12Z beach: It is not about DEFCONSTANT.
2020-10-28T17:30:23Z beach: It has to do with the fact that the list is literal.
2020-10-28T17:30:29Z dbotton: I got that, the data is the type, ie it is a constant list
2020-10-28T17:30:36Z beach: Using LET or SETQ to assign it first won't change that.
2020-10-28T17:30:37Z dbotton: because created with '
2020-10-28T17:30:51Z beach: Exactly.
2020-10-28T17:31:13Z dbotton: ok, so if I use (list 1 2 3) should be ok
2020-10-28T17:31:21Z dbotton: to change members?
2020-10-28T17:31:43Z beach: So if you do (defvar *l* '(a b c)) then (let ((l *l*)) (setf (car l) 234)) that is still undefined behavior.
2020-10-28T17:31:45Z dbotton: (if not bizarre that setf on nth would exist)
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2020-10-28T17:32:02Z dbotton: that is what I did first
2020-10-28T17:32:12Z dbotton: was part of another experiment I was working on
2020-10-28T17:32:15Z beach: You can do (defparameter *l* (list 'a 'b 'c))
2020-10-28T17:32:26Z beach: Then you can change the list, because it is not literal.
2020-10-28T17:32:50Z beach: So (SETF NTH) is still useful.
2020-10-28T17:32:51Z dbotton: ok and if it is a (defconstant c (list 1 2 3))
2020-10-28T17:32:59Z beach: Same.
2020-10-28T17:33:09Z dbotton: so can change then
2020-10-28T17:33:23Z beach: It has nothing to do with DEFCONSTANT or DEFPARAMETER.  It has to do with whether the list is literal or not.
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2020-10-28T17:33:26Z beach: Here it isn't.
2020-10-28T17:33:50Z beach: But you really shouldn't use lists with DEFCONSTANT.
2020-10-28T17:33:56Z dbotton: got a warning
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2020-10-28T17:34:07Z dbotton: with defconstant on sbcl
2020-10-28T17:34:40Z dbotton: so sbcl is giving same warning in both cases
2020-10-28T17:34:59Z dbotton: I would think then should be different
2020-10-28T17:36:12Z beach: What is the warning and what are the two cases?
2020-10-28T17:36:44Z dbotton: ; in: SETF (NTH 2 E)
2020-10-28T17:36:44Z dbotton: ;     (SB-KERNEL:%RPLACA #:LIST #:NEW)
2020-10-28T17:36:45Z dbotton: ;
2020-10-28T17:36:45Z dbotton: ; caught WARNING:
2020-10-28T17:36:45Z dbotton: ;   Destructive function SB-KERNEL:%RPLACA called on constant data: (3 4)\
2020-10-28T17:36:52Z dbotton: that is defconstant
2020-10-28T17:37:35Z dbotton: ; in: SETF (NTH 2 *C*)
2020-10-28T17:37:35Z dbotton: ;     (SB-KERNEL:%RPLACA #:LIST #:NEW)
2020-10-28T17:37:35Z dbotton: ;
2020-10-28T17:37:35Z dbotton: ; caught WARNING:
2020-10-28T17:37:35Z dbotton: ;   Destructive function SB-KERNEL:%RPLACA called on constant data: (4 4)
2020-10-28T17:37:41Z semz: it's worth mentioning that there are implementations out there which misbehave silently if you modify a literal list, such as CCL
2020-10-28T17:37:55Z semz: try this on for size: (defun test () (let* ((n 10) (x `(,n 2 3)) (y `(,n 2 3))) (list (nconc x y) x y)))
2020-10-28T17:38:03Z semz: and call it twice
2020-10-28T17:38:13Z dbotton: that second one was from defconstant with literal
2020-10-28T17:38:27Z dbotton: first was with (list)
2020-10-28T17:38:46Z beach: SBCL is inconsistent as well because there is no warning on (SETF CAR), at least not in the version I am using.
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2020-10-28T17:39:27Z dbotton: the issue I a=have is that in both cases saying that I am modifiy constant data
2020-10-28T17:39:35Z dbotton: In one case yes in other no
2020-10-28T17:39:55Z dbotton: the non literal version is not constant data, just a constant reference
2020-10-28T17:40:11Z dbotton: (at least that is my thought as was trying to see if could do)
2020-10-28T17:40:14Z beach: What?
2020-10-28T17:40:31Z beach: What is a constant reference, and how is it not constant data?
2020-10-28T17:41:18Z beach: There is no such thing as "constant data".  The term is "literal".  When you construct a list with '(...) then the entire list is literal and you are not allowed to modify any part of it.
2020-10-28T17:41:19Z dbotton: the defconstant is saying that I am refering to a specific list - one list is itself constant, a literal the other version is built with (list) so not constant
2020-10-28T17:42:23Z dbotton: so those two messages are for the two versions 1 defconsant to literal and 2 defconstant to non-literal
2020-10-28T17:42:38Z dbotton: semz will try soon, thanks
2020-10-28T17:43:12Z beach: Maybe you should ask #sbcl why you observe this behavior.  Either way, using DEFCONSTANT with a list is a very bad idea.
2020-10-28T17:43:31Z Bike: you know i don't actually see anything in the standard saying mutating a value bound to a constant is illegal
2020-10-28T17:43:32Z dbotton: that was the original question :) so thanks :)
2020-10-28T17:43:38Z Bike: i can see why you'd not want to do that, of course
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2020-10-28T17:43:40Z dbotton: ie don't do it at all
2020-10-28T17:44:12Z dbotton: Bike, so far nothing I have seen says that either
2020-10-28T17:44:13Z _death: defconstant mean the binding is constant
2020-10-28T17:44:22Z dbotton: exactly
2020-10-28T17:44:25Z dbotton: not the data
2020-10-28T17:44:42Z dbotton: that was what I was trying to see
2020-10-28T17:44:44Z Bike: i mean, for real though, don't write programs relying on the ability to mutate constants, that's just a mess
2020-10-28T17:45:37Z dbotton: I was thiking that if I wanted a constant binding to non constant data maybe ok
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2020-10-28T17:47:53Z _death: dbotton: defconstant is not meant for complex data.. mostly for numbers/characters/symbols.. for more complex objects you should use defvar
2020-10-28T17:48:27Z dbotton: and rely on people respecting it as a constant
2020-10-28T17:48:45Z dbotton: lisp is very trusing of its developers :)
2020-10-28T17:48:50Z _death: yes, in lisp you trust the programmer
2020-10-28T17:50:25Z _death: and when your constant changes, as constants sometimes do, you won't have to recompile everything
2020-10-28T17:50:26Z dbotton: I guess could have a package and call it "constants" to make it harder or more obvious
2020-10-28T17:51:23Z Alfr: Defconstant is also useful when you need a place for some sentinel value.
2020-10-28T17:51:24Z beach: Or use DEFPARAMETER but give it a name like +mumble+.
2020-10-28T17:52:04Z beach: Maybe that would be too confusing.
2020-10-28T17:53:09Z dbotton: well the idea that one has to use myapp-const:something I like better then just a naming convention
2020-10-28T17:53:20Z dbotton: but point is same, just a name
2020-10-28T17:53:45Z dbotton: or :: rather as exported
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2020-10-28T18:19:41Z dbotton_: sorry ':' - sorry one : for the exported symbols
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2020-10-28T19:29:57Z dlowe: I pretty much always use defparameter over defconstant
2020-10-28T19:30:10Z dlowe: with plus-muffs
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2020-10-28T19:34:55Z dlowe: veritas aeternum sed tempus est varationem
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2020-10-28T19:51:43Z dbotton_: semz, sbcl catches that with a warning that it modifies constant data even before running
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2020-10-28T19:55:04Z dbotton_: but that would be expected, as playing with list literals
2020-10-28T19:56:17Z dbotton_: Is there a rationale for having literals or just about optimizations?
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2020-10-28T20:15:25Z dbotton_: what is even more interesing is that (constantp '(1 2 3)) is nil
2020-10-28T20:15:30Z dbotton_: what is that?
2020-10-28T20:15:41Z dbotton_: why is that? (sorry)
2020-10-28T20:16:05Z semz: dbotton_, well my point was that you can't rely on the warnings even in mature implementations
2020-10-28T20:16:34Z semz: constantp is for use in macros primarily
2020-10-28T20:16:51Z semz: so it's checking if (1 2 3) is a constant form (which it isn't)
2020-10-28T20:16:58Z dbotton_: it does return t for a number for example
2020-10-28T20:17:00Z semz: note that (constantp ''(1 2 3)) would be T
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2020-10-28T20:24:57Z Bike: constantp checks if forms are constant
2020-10-28T20:25:06Z Bike: (1 2 3) as code signals an error since there's no 1 function
2020-10-28T20:25:12Z Bike: it does not check if data is literal
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2020-10-28T20:27:30Z dbotton_: Bike but it does return 2 for #2A((A 2) (3 4))
2020-10-28T20:27:57Z dbotton_: So not sure I understand why it doesn't for '(1 2 3)
2020-10-28T20:27:57Z Bike: yes, because literals are self evaluating forms
2020-10-28T20:28:07Z Bike: you pass constantp a form. something to evalaute
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2020-10-28T20:28:22Z Bike: if you throw (1 2 3) in your repl it's an error. what you mean is probably (constantp ''(1 2 3)) like semz said
2020-10-28T20:29:04Z dbotton_: so what does the second quote do?
2020-10-28T20:29:28Z Bike: it quotes the quotation
2020-10-28T20:30:13Z dbotton_: I am not getting the difference then between '(1 2 3) and #2A((A 2) (3 4))
2020-10-28T20:30:47Z Alfr: dbotton_, the first gets eaten by the reader and then constantp gets to see (quote (1 2 3)).
2020-10-28T20:30:52Z Bike: try (eval '(1 2 3))
2020-10-28T20:31:20Z Bike: it's an error. you're passing it a form that's a call to the function "1" with arguments 2 and 3. that's invalid
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2020-10-28T20:32:18Z Alfr: dbotton_, the first is a list abd the second gives you an array.
2020-10-28T20:32:22Z Bike: (eval #2a((a 2) (3 4))) is fine, because arrays evaluate to themselves
2020-10-28T20:32:29Z Bike: lists do not evaluate to themselves, since they represent code
2020-10-28T20:33:13Z dbotton_: ok, so it is not a literal object until the operator quote turns it in to one after and that is constant
2020-10-28T20:33:50Z Bike: no. ok, look, lisp code is evaluated, right? by the eval function, more or less
2020-10-28T20:33:57Z Bike: you pass eval an object and it runs the evaluation rules.
2020-10-28T20:33:59Z dbotton_: ok
2020-10-28T20:34:01Z _death: no, it is a literal object.. quote just returns it without evaluating
2020-10-28T20:34:19Z Bike: all quote means is that (eval (quote anything)) => anything.
2020-10-28T20:35:06Z Bike: Now if you evaluate, say, (eval '(+ 1 2)), you need that extra quote there because EVAL is a normal function and its arguments are evaluated before the function is called.
2020-10-28T20:35:17Z Bike: the quote means that the eval function receives the list of +, 1, 2.
2020-10-28T20:35:33Z Bike: If you just write (eval (+ 1 2)), that's the same as just (eval 3), eval gets a 3 rather than a list.
2020-10-28T20:36:02Z Bike: So if you write (eval '(1 2 3)), eval receives a list of 1, 2, 3 as an argument, and that's not valid lisp code.
2020-10-28T20:36:02Z dbotton_: got is so constantp is evaluating that '(1 2 3) to (1 2 3) and ''(1 2 3) to the literal '(1 2 3)
2020-10-28T20:36:24Z dbotton_: which is the contant form
2020-10-28T20:36:32Z Bike: constantp receives a form as its argument much like eval, so if you write (constantp '(1 2 3)), you're passing the form that's the list 1, 2, 3, which as with eval is invalid.
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2020-10-28T20:37:20Z dbotton_: ah so not even that it is not a constant is invalid
2020-10-28T20:37:37Z dbotton_: ie it is passing a code form not a data form
2020-10-28T20:37:46Z _death: CONSTANTP does not evaluate anything.. it tells you (maybe) if the form it got would always return the same object.. in fact it's a very tricky function and often misused
2020-10-28T20:38:42Z Bike: yeah, constantp analyzes forms. there's no guarantee that literal objects are distinguishable from other objects in any way at runtime anyway
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2020-10-28T20:42:05Z Alfr: dbotton_, sorry, some lines above I meant gets eaten by eval, not the reader.
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2020-10-28T20:47:31Z _death: for example if you have a constant (defconstant foo 42), at compile-time (constantp 'foo) will return true, but that does not mean you can get the value of foo.. lisp may know foo is a constant, but not yet know its value until later on.. then again, on another implementation it may know the value
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2020-10-28T20:49:30Z sjl_: I'm not sure I've ever figured out how to actually *use* constantp correctly... ever.
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2020-10-28T20:51:59Z _death: sjl: I guess it's useful if you want to know whether a symbol is a constant.. for example so that you don't generate something that binds it
2020-10-28T20:52:39Z _death: (instead you can signal an error at compile time)
2020-10-28T20:53:52Z dbotton_: Thanks I think finally got it, and the difference, and why
2020-10-28T20:54:13Z _death: sjl: in fact that's the original use case for it, I believe: http://cl-su-ai.lisp.se/msg05376.html
2020-10-28T20:54:25Z dbotton_: Still though don't know rational for having the literal forms other then optimization
2020-10-28T20:54:31Z sjl_: interesting
2020-10-28T20:54:53Z _death: dbotton: yes, it's for optimization
2020-10-28T20:55:17Z dbotton_: thanks appreciated
2020-10-28T20:55:46Z _death: for example why should (member foo '(yes no)) keep creating yes-no lists?
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2020-10-28T21:02:00Z sjl_: I still don't really understand how to use it for non-symbol things then.  E.g. in SBCL (constantp (list '+ 1 2)) is true, but if I were trying to do something like... unroll a looping form if N is small, I'd need to (eval ...) that thing first, right?
2020-10-28T21:02:56Z sjl_: And SBCL will also return T for constantp of something involving e.g. a symbol-macrolet'ed thing, so you need to sb-cltl2:macroexpand-all too... and I'm just not confident at all that I'd be doing all the necessary dances
2020-10-28T21:03:33Z _death: well, bad example because it doesn't have to do with multiple copies.. in fact that would've been broken.. it's optimization in the sense that these literals can be coalesced and otherwise share structure
2020-10-28T21:05:27Z sjl_: like, this *appears* to work but I have no confidence that there's not something I haven't thought of https://gist.github.com/sjl/73e749f35763958a0158f1bdd7bb3289
2020-10-28T21:05:35Z sjl_: so I pretty much just don't even try
2020-10-28T21:06:10Z _death: sjl: so this has the exact issue I mentioned.. the value may not be available at the time you EVAL
2020-10-28T21:06:17Z sjl_: right
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2020-10-28T21:06:29Z sjl_: So there's just no way to do something like this, right?
2020-10-28T21:06:35Z _death: sjl: I just go with stupid checks like INTEGERP
2020-10-28T21:06:39Z sjl_: I mean, obviously you can integerp in the macro
2020-10-28T21:06:41Z sjl_: Yeah
2020-10-28T21:06:49Z sjl_: That will catch some of the cases, not all though
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2020-10-28T21:07:16Z _death: if the value is unavailable, the macro can't do anything
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2020-10-28T21:07:44Z sjl_: and there's no availablep so... welp
2020-10-28T21:08:31Z _death: there's boundp I guess
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2020-10-28T21:13:04Z _death: then constantp could be useful too, because if it's a boundp symbol and not a constant, you don't want to unroll
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2020-10-28T21:20:57Z Bike: constantp needs a constant-form-value, like sbcl has internally
2020-10-28T21:22:34Z phoe: Bike: do other implementations have something like that?
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2020-10-28T21:23:05Z phoe hints for a possible portability library
2020-10-28T21:23:06Z Bike: i put one in clasp. other than that, dunno, probably not
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2020-10-28T21:23:42Z Bike: it should be pretty straightforward to implement, tho
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2020-10-28T21:27:16Z _death: sjl: btw, I see you're still going through rosalind.. learned about it (last year) from your plan file.. it was fun
2020-10-28T21:27:22Z Nilby: Wow. Thanks _death and sjl_ for shining some light into this dark corner, and digging up the quux quote. I've really never understood constantp, so I never used it.
2020-10-28T21:27:48Z sjl_: _death: Ah nice.  Yeah our book club at work is going through the Bioinformatics textbook the Rosalind authors wrote
2020-10-28T21:28:06Z sjl_: So hopefully I'll have more motivation to finish all the exercises in the book this time, ,hah.
2020-10-28T21:28:25Z _death: sjl: cool.. I didn't read any text book.. but some tasks had me reading papers
2020-10-28T21:29:08Z sjl_: Part of me wants to sit down and write an efficient DNA/RNA seq representation in CL... but that's kind of a rabbit hole and Rosalind examples are all tiny, so I've just been using vanilla CL strings and sequence functions.
2020-10-28T21:29:32Z Bike: would it not just be an (unsigned-byte 2) vector
2020-10-28T21:29:44Z _death: rosalind.lisp 6310 lines
2020-10-28T21:30:02Z sjl_: That's one option, but it's not quite that simple.
2020-10-28T21:30:05Z Bike: phoe: i see an eval-constant in ccl, but it doesn't take an env argument.
2020-10-28T21:30:18Z sjl_: E.g. FASTQ files in the real world often have `N` as a base which means "don't know"
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2020-10-28T21:30:32Z sjl_: So (vector (unsigned-byte 2)) can't handle those
2020-10-28T21:30:37Z Bike: oh, yeah that makes sense.
2020-10-28T21:30:47Z _death: sjl: there was no need to use a special representation
2020-10-28T21:31:00Z sjl_: I read somewhere about using (unsigned-byte 4) to represent a base, where each base has a bit
2020-10-28T21:31:20Z Bike: phoe: also it seems mildly out of wack iwth constantp, in that constantp... it looks like it tries to handle lexical constants or something?
2020-10-28T21:31:36Z Bike: sjl_: in general you'd have, what, like, probabilities? sounds tricky
2020-10-28T21:31:41Z sjl_: which lets you represent "this base could be any one of A, C, T" as 1101, and comparing bases with logand treats it as a wildcard
2020-10-28T21:31:48Z _death: of course some problems require special representations, but in general I just used strings
2020-10-28T21:32:02Z sjl_: well, quality scores are a whole other kettle of fish
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2020-10-28T21:32:13Z sjl_: _death: yeah Rosalind's test data is small enough that strings seem fine
2020-10-28T21:33:17Z sjl_: Bike: essentially I'd like to make something like Julia's biosequences in CL https://github.com/BioJulia/BioSequences.jl
2020-10-28T21:33:23Z sjl_: but... that's a lot of work
2020-10-28T21:33:51Z Bike: handles polypeptides and stuff too, i guess?
2020-10-28T21:34:14Z sjl_: yeah they have a protein type too I think
2020-10-28T21:34:28Z sjl_: though there the advantages over (simple-array base-char) is less obvious
2020-10-28T21:35:33Z sjl_: But there's a TON of rabbit holes you could go down
2020-10-28T21:36:01Z sjl_: e.g. maybe you want to optimize for short kmers, so you represent sequences of < 20ish chars as a fixnum
2020-10-28T21:36:20Z sjl_: because then you can use them as keys in eql hash tables
2020-10-28T21:36:42Z Bike: and you could implement agrep! so fun
2020-10-28T21:37:50Z sjl_: and use it to solve http://rosalind.info/problems/ba1h/ yep
2020-10-28T21:40:38Z _death: I think the toughtest problems (for me) were cntq, mult, and qrtd
2020-10-28T21:41:16Z sjl_: Yeah, I haven't done those yet.  Some day!
2020-10-28T21:41:39Z Nilby: it feels weird to push around electrons so brutally, just to have superpowers over something they do naturally. If only one could elide the quantum and atomic levels.
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2020-10-29T04:05:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-29T04:38:15Z Nilby: Am I crazy to make a slot-missing method that uses symbol-name, so I don't have to export slot names or use :: ?
2020-10-29T04:39:38Z no-defun-allowed: I reserve crazy for other things, but you should avoid slot-value where possible.
2020-10-29T04:40:47Z Nilby: I would probably mostly use it invisibly from with-slots
2020-10-29T04:41:10Z no-defun-allowed: That also applies for WITH-SLOTS. Your user should use accessors.
2020-10-29T04:43:23Z Nilby: The point is not to use accessors. I also don't like accesors. I am my user.
2020-10-29T04:43:29Z beach: I would think a method on SLOT-MISSING would be defined in the same package as the slot.
2020-10-29T04:43:37Z no-defun-allowed: As I said yesterday, well too bad.
2020-10-29T04:43:47Z beach: Nilby: That's a strange attitude.
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2020-10-29T04:44:03Z Nilby: Well, I would have a mixin class for "slow-slots"
2020-10-29T04:44:28Z Nilby: It's about accessor naming.
2020-10-29T04:44:29Z beach: Nilby: If you are your own user, just use the same package for everything.  It seems you don't care much about module boundaries anyway.
2020-10-29T04:44:57Z Nilby: I already have hundreds of packages.
2020-10-29T04:45:08Z no-defun-allowed: ("Crazy" would be the person who marked my assignment, whom took marks off for not printing class names in user-facing output.)
2020-10-29T04:45:25Z beach: Nilby: Then I think you will be in big trouble for using implementation details like slot names across package boundaries.
2020-10-29T04:46:46Z beach: Anyway, I don't see the point in asking for advice and then disregard it.
2020-10-29T04:47:22Z Nilby: I just want to say "buffer" where I want, rather than fizzle-stick-functuaor-buffer every darn time.
2020-10-29T04:47:43Z beach: You have a problem with naming then.
2020-10-29T04:47:49Z beach: Just call it BUFFER.
2020-10-29T04:47:50Z no-defun-allowed: Then do it, and use :accessor buffer
2020-10-29T04:47:53Z beach: That's what I do.
2020-10-29T04:48:05Z Nilby: But it clashes with 100 other buffers.
2020-10-29T04:48:11Z beach: Not at all.
2020-10-29T04:48:49Z beach: (package:buffer x) is even shorter than (slot-value x 'package:buffer)
2020-10-29T04:48:57Z no-defun-allowed: Well, only in the case that two methods for BUFFER are applicable to one object. But how do you have 100 other buffers?
2020-10-29T04:49:26Z no-defun-allowed: (But, yes, you probably should use packages to separate modules that have different definitions for "buffer".)
2020-10-29T04:49:36Z beach: Definmitely.
2020-10-29T04:49:39Z beach: Er,
2020-10-29T04:49:42Z beach: Definitely.
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2020-10-29T04:51:18Z Nilby: Right, but I want to use all of them in the same code. And I'd like to without prefixes inside a say a with-slots.
2020-10-29T04:51:32Z beach: Fine, go ahead then.
2020-10-29T04:51:48Z beach: clhs with-accessors
2020-10-29T04:51:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_acce.htm
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2020-10-29T04:52:47Z Nilby: Right, but I still need to have the package prefixes in the with-accessors?
2020-10-29T04:53:15Z beach: I don't think any further input from me is going to make a difference.
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2020-10-29T04:54:57Z Nilby: I appreciate your discussing it. I just wonder what other people do? I know it's considered bad style to use :use.
2020-10-29T04:55:03Z no-defun-allowed: You do need the prefix for accessor-name.
2020-10-29T04:55:31Z no-defun-allowed: Well, if I control both packages, then I use :use and keep it to myself. (Oops, now you know.) Or use :import-from
2020-10-29T04:57:04Z Nilby: I use :use alot to. But I wouldn't want to force anyone else to. I would also document what would be public interface slot names.
2020-10-29T04:58:16Z Nilby: You know that error one gets which says something like: "It has a slot TREE-FLUX::NODE-TYPE, while TREE-FROG:NODE-TYPE is requested."
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2020-10-29T04:59:10Z aeth: :use is good for large projects with many packages
2020-10-29T04:59:23Z beach: Oh yeah?
2020-10-29T04:59:50Z beach: Crap, that means I have to rewrite lots of code.
2020-10-29T05:00:28Z Nilby: I actually only use :use when I have a well defined interface desinged to be convenient for :use.
2020-10-29T05:01:13Z fengshaun: how should I properly setup slime and company for completion for CL?
2020-10-29T05:01:23Z fengshaun: I've followed https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Loading-Contribs.html#Loading-and-unloading-_0060_0060on-the-fly_0027_0027 and https://github.com/emacsmirror/slime-company
2020-10-29T05:01:47Z fengshaun: I'm trying to get common lisp completion working with company mode and slime, I have set slime-contrib to slime-company and then call slime-setup. Company mode in a CL file only complete symbols in the buffer, not anything else
2020-10-29T05:02:19Z aeth: I mean, there really isn't an optimal solution for huge projects with tons of packages... much larger than practically any CL project gets. You can always use the package prefix (perhaps locally nicknamed), but now you need to find-and-replace any time you move something from one package to another, which is probably pretty likely if the project is very, very large.
2020-10-29T05:02:36Z aeth: You can USE, but that's potentially fragile, and I'd suggest to keep it to other "internal" packages.
2020-10-29T05:03:05Z aeth: Or you can explicitly IMPORT-FROM, which I tend to do, but most people don't. You can easily wind up with hundreds/thousands of lines of boilerplate with import-from, but you only have to change it once when you move it
2020-10-29T05:03:11Z beach: aeth: I think it is highly unlikely that code needs to be moved from one package to another.
2020-10-29T05:03:19Z Nilby: It looks like I have about 377 packages :(
2020-10-29T05:04:10Z aeth: beach: It really depends on how many packages you have. One-package-per-directory makes it fairly unlikely, but one-package-per-file makes it fairly likely, which is a bit of a disadvantage for things like package-inferred-system.
2020-10-29T05:04:13Z Nilby: I find it harder to maintain import-from, but I do like the specificity.
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2020-10-29T05:04:44Z aeth: One-package-per-system makes it very unlikely, but it doesn't scale very well to very, very large projects imo.
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2020-10-29T05:05:17Z beach: aeth: As I have said many times, I don't see the advantage of a package per file.  A package per module ought to be the norm.
2020-10-29T05:05:47Z beach: And it is highly unlikely to want to move code from one module to another.
2020-10-29T05:05:59Z beach: If it were likely, it means your module boundaries are not clear.
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2020-10-29T05:06:34Z aeth: Perhaps it depends on the project. My largest project is a game engine, which by the nature of the problem is a gigantic, interconnected mess. Trying to do decent software engineering out of it is the hardest challenge.
2020-10-29T05:06:36Z Nilby: I have approximately package per module.
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2020-10-29T05:07:29Z beach: I don't see the point of trying to figure out modularity rules for code that is an intrinsic mess.
2020-10-29T05:07:32Z aeth: Even if I did one package per directory, I'd still need to rearrange things all of the time, and on the other side of things, I'd probably want to still have a bunch of one-file modules/packages, anyway. For things like wrapping SDL.
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2020-10-29T05:07:38Z Nilby: Game engine is a great exmaple for the kind of problems I have with slot naming.
2020-10-29T05:08:00Z edgar-rft: aeth: sounds as if you're trying to re-invent the internet as a game
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2020-10-29T05:08:31Z Nilby: Or the internet is trying to re-invent them as a game :)
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2020-10-29T05:09:26Z aeth: beach: The problem with game engines aren't that the code's a mess, it's that the problem itself is a mess because pretty much the only thing that isn't very coupled is the sound.
2020-10-29T05:09:47Z mfiano: As a game engine developer, I can both agree and disagree that the modules and protocols are constantly evolving, even after many years of good software architecture.
2020-10-29T05:11:49Z mfiano: That said, I never use :USE for my tens of thousands of lines of game engine code across dozens of packages.
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2020-10-29T05:12:34Z Nilby: mfiano: Do you use import-from ?
2020-10-29T05:12:51Z mfiano: For complex systems, good protocol or not, it is more maintainable to use package-local nicknames, than to fit everything in owns' head where symbols come from, or increase noise with full package qualifiiers
2020-10-29T05:12:52Z Nilby: Or just prefixes?
2020-10-29T05:13:08Z mfiano: No I use PLN's
2020-10-29T05:13:11Z autumn[m]: out of curiosity are you also developing a game at the same time?
2020-10-29T05:13:24Z autumn[m]: (sorry, i'm nosy >.>)
2020-10-29T05:13:50Z Nilby: Ah. I made most of my mess before PLN's were easily usable.
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2020-10-29T05:17:03Z mfiano: Commonly used packages get brief local nicknames, and consistent for each package requiring their use, such as "A" for "ALEXANDRIA". Less commonly used ones are still short, but less so; just enough to clearly identify them. My actual packages are qualified with my domain name as "NET.MFIANO.LISP.*" as to be a good Common Lisp citizen and not introduce conflicts when one depends on my software in an
2020-10-29T05:17:05Z mfiano: image with a chance to collide with other global package names, so this works well for me.
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2020-10-29T05:20:26Z pillton: Do you include the nicknames in the package declaration?
2020-10-29T05:21:25Z mfiano: The local nicknames? Yes, unless my protocol is not yet well fleshed out and I require mutually recursive calls, which that wouldn't work for.
2020-10-29T05:22:49Z mfiano: I loathe mutually recursive packages, so that is rare, but sometimes happens when prototyping a new feature in a complex piece of machinery such as a game engine.
2020-10-29T05:23:31Z pillton: By mutually recursive packages do you mean packages which depend on each other?
2020-10-29T05:23:50Z mfiano: Yes, mutually-dependent is a more correct term. Sorry.
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2020-10-29T05:25:45Z mfiano: autumn[m]: I have been developing a game engine for about 10 years, and only recently started writing a game about 2 months ago. The game engine is not complete, but complete enough for writing the game I want at this point.
2020-10-29T05:25:56Z no-defun-allowed: Nilby: No, I only :use for e.g my utility library, and the CL package (of course), which isn't "a lot".
2020-10-29T05:26:22Z mfiano: So at this point in time I am now developing both in parallel
2020-10-29T05:27:23Z no-defun-allowed: Admittedly I have too many things in that utility library, including some "primitives" for binary input and output, thread utilities like locked boxes and WITH-THREAD, and now meters.
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2020-10-29T05:28:26Z no-defun-allowed: But the point is I control both packages, and it's very unlikely that I'll get to developing anything with similar names or concepts in both packages, so it's not a big deal.
2020-10-29T05:28:26Z beach: autumn[m]: As an outside observer, I get the impression that there are more game engines than games in Common Lisp.
2020-10-29T05:28:41Z mfiano: For my personal utility package, I use a U: PLN, never :USE'ing the package, because my code is read by other game developers.
2020-10-29T05:28:53Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: I use USE for my utility library but it probably wouldn't make a big difference if I switched it to the prefix z
2020-10-29T05:29:18Z autumn[m]: hah. <.< The impression I got was that there were many attempts at game engines of varying completeness! but I haven't looked deeply.
2020-10-29T05:29:41Z aeth: mfiano: anyone who wants to know what it is can just M-., though
2020-10-29T05:30:21Z no-defun-allowed: I intend for my code to be read by no one, and that's also why we license with the Cooperat—no, I'm kidding. But I started writing before I knew of PLNs.
2020-10-29T05:31:19Z Nilby: aeth: M-., is really quite the killer feature of a development environment
2020-10-29T05:31:33Z mfiano: beach: There are a lot, because game engines are complex, much moreso than an operating system for example, requiring discipline in lots of branches of CS/maths/art. But there are not more than the number of games. The Lisp game jams over the past 10 years or so receives quite a few CL games from scratch, or on top of some existing engines.
2020-10-29T05:32:19Z mfiano: The Lisp curse of "I can do it better than anyone else" is also at play here. It would be nice if more engine authors could collaborate, given how much time and effort it takes.
2020-10-29T05:32:57Z dbotton_: but half the fun is doing it your way and from scratch
2020-10-29T05:33:09Z no-defun-allowed: Although, I do have one module that I think is very difficult to understand without being able to poke at it running, which implies -- hah, wow, I have never wanted to say [citation needed] more than in the past 30 seconds.
2020-10-29T05:33:10Z Nilby: no-defun-allowed: In practice not much of the nameing scheme matters, since I'll be suprised if anyone ever had to use my code.
2020-10-29T05:33:11Z dbotton_: I am sure most of these engines are not for pay
2020-10-29T05:34:21Z Nilby: I wrote a few small boring games without writing any gaming engines.
2020-10-29T05:35:05Z dbotton_: Is there an easy way to rename a single operator from a different package?
2020-10-29T05:35:52Z aeth: Ime, the different engines have very different approaches.
2020-10-29T05:36:29Z aeth: e.g. borodust's uses way more FFI (especially into C++!) than anyone else is comfortable with, but that's probably why the 2D trivial-gamekit part of it is very usable today
2020-10-29T05:36:48Z no-defun-allowed: They cannot be renamed; remember that packages work with symbols, and symbols have names that are always the same.
2020-10-29T05:37:59Z no-defun-allowed: A lot of "why can't we all work together?" situations cannot be "solved" because of varying technique. This is not untrue of the so-called Lisp curse.
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2020-10-29T05:40:03Z dbotton_: I can't see why technically the package name and symbol name can be rename with in a local package
2020-10-29T05:40:07Z dbotton_: can't
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2020-10-29T05:41:10Z no-defun-allowed: Well, suppose I managed to rename 'a:foo to 'b:bar. What would (symbol-name <that symbol>) be in packages A, B, and a different package?
2020-10-29T05:41:29Z aeth: As for me, I generally started out using or looking into libraries for various pieces, only later settling on my own approach. e.g. my (very incomplete) approach to shaders is a very different design. It's a separate (and very incomplete, rough draft of a) language instead of trying to compile a subset of CL to GLSL.
2020-10-29T05:41:53Z semz: being notoriously underdocumented despite being idiosyncratic is also a problem with gamedev-related lisp stuff in my experience, especially the FFI parts
2020-10-29T05:42:13Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: you joke about licenses, but this is where the game engine stuff isn't really fragmented. It's almost all MIT license, with a bit of BSD
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2020-10-29T05:42:31Z semz: when using the thing boils down to reading half of its code, many people will just roll their own
2020-10-29T05:42:32Z dbotton_: no-defun-allowed it would be whatever I want in the current package, it is just aliasing the name
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2020-10-29T05:42:59Z no-defun-allowed: dbotton_: I fear that would become very inconsistent very quickly.
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2020-10-29T05:43:34Z Nilby: dbotton_: because operators, in the sense of special-operator-p or when clhs says [operator] might be compiled into the compiler.
2020-10-29T05:43:59Z dbotton_: if I never use :use then I am always working with longer package names, there maybe occasion to shorten for a single operator
2020-10-29T05:44:05Z mfiano: The underlying fact is that Lisp is more flexible than most other languages, allowing you to shape it to your own mental model. It's no wonder why code is under-documented.
2020-10-29T05:44:19Z mfiano: This also explains why the wheel is often reinvented
2020-10-29T05:44:32Z semz: it does come with the territory a bit, yeah
2020-10-29T05:44:32Z dbotton_: meaning functions/macro in general sense
2020-10-29T05:44:43Z mfiano: It's much easier to rewrite things for your own subset of use-cases than it is to understand someone else's thought processes.
2020-10-29T05:45:08Z aeth: CL is also incredibly multiparadigm.
2020-10-29T05:45:36Z Nilby: Anything being a trivial-X away seems to make me a bit too ambitious.
2020-10-29T05:45:36Z aeth: I've had people assume that my engine is FP or a certain kind of OOP or whatever... just by the language selection. :-)
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2020-10-29T05:45:57Z dbotton_: is there a simple way to duplicate a symbol so two symbols point to same object?
2020-10-29T05:46:37Z markasoftware: what you want is to create a new, distinct symbol with the same symbol-value
2020-10-29T05:46:38Z mfiano: I think you are asking the wrong questions.
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2020-10-29T05:46:59Z markasoftware: Just do (setf (symbol-value 'my-new-symbol) the-old-symbol)
2020-10-29T05:47:15Z markasoftware: i'm not sure why (setf my-new-symbol the-old-symbol) isn't working for you tbh
2020-10-29T05:47:44Z dbotton_: if a symbol is one function object and now I want another symbol that points to same function object
2020-10-29T05:47:59Z markasoftware: so you're specifically interested in the function part of it?
2020-10-29T05:49:02Z markasoftware: (setf (fdefinition 'new-symbol) #'old)
2020-10-29T05:49:08Z dbotton_: just thinking if easy way to do what I am saying, to access a function in one package from another using a symbol in that second package
2020-10-29T05:49:46Z markasoftware: ah, so there's a name conflict preventing you from importing it?
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2020-10-29T05:50:32Z dbotton_: no want to shorten the name for a specific function
2020-10-29T05:51:26Z mfiano: There's plenty of ways to do that.
2020-10-29T05:51:27Z dbotton_: that worked
2020-10-29T05:51:54Z dbotton_: so there is a way to rename a specific function or symbol
2020-10-29T05:52:26Z dbotton_: have two symbols now pointing to same closure I made
2020-10-29T05:52:46Z mfiano: Inside your function, you could use symbol-macrolet, define an accessor, point the function cell of a new symbol to that of another. It really depends on the use-case.
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2020-10-29T05:53:16Z mfiano: Symbols are objects, like everything else. They have various "cells" mapping to more than just functions.
2020-10-29T05:53:26Z mfiano: And there are other namespaces too
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2020-10-29T05:53:49Z dbotton_: that is what I thought, nut someone said there was no way to rename a single function
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2020-10-29T05:55:35Z dbotton_: so I should be able to make some macros for renaming functions and variables etc
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2020-10-29T05:55:44Z Nilby: dbotton_: There are actually a things about a function that may not be renamed when you do it that way, for example the documentation, or if it has a compiler-macro-function, etc.
2020-10-29T05:56:58Z dbotton_: so is there a macro of something else that would copy a symbol and all its properties to another symbol
2020-10-29T05:57:39Z dbotton_: so this way all info there
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2020-10-29T05:57:53Z dbotton_: and can use for variables or functions etc
2020-10-29T05:58:04Z mfiano: That makes no sense. One such property is the name, and another is the package.
2020-10-29T05:58:28Z dbotton_: obviously leaving out name and package
2020-10-29T05:58:31Z mfiano: Just try inspecting a symbol.
2020-10-29T05:58:41Z dbotton_: everything else would want to transfer over
2020-10-29T05:58:45Z mfiano: Packages and symbols are an integral part of the Lisp parser, so to speak.
2020-10-29T05:58:52Z dbotton_: plists whatever
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2020-10-29T05:59:44Z dbotton_: ya, and if I want do duplicate a symbol why not? is no difference in some ways from two symbols for same list
2020-10-29T06:00:32Z mfiano: "duplicating a symbol" is impossible, because they are contained in the parser's lookup table known as a package.
2020-10-29T06:00:57Z dbotton_: duplicating its data is
2020-10-29T06:01:14Z mfiano: No, duplicating a subset of its data is. Duplicating it's data is not.
2020-10-29T06:01:19Z dbotton_: I am not duplicating the symbol
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2020-10-29T06:02:16Z dbotton_: ok, so to make a rename-local macro would have to collect all the properties that matter
2020-10-29T06:02:52Z dbotton_: then could in any package rename another packages functions, symbols etc in to the local package
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2020-10-29T06:03:35Z dbotton_: or I am missing something?
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2020-10-29T06:04:29Z mfiano: I think you are missing the point of packages and symbols, good protocol design, and how the Lisp parser functions.
2020-10-29T06:04:37Z mfiano: I am out of help for the day.
2020-10-29T06:04:54Z no-defun-allowed: It would become a hassle if you then go to redefine a function or change the binding of a variable.
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2020-10-29T06:05:31Z dbotton_: good point
2020-10-29T06:05:52Z dbotton_: I was not thinking about the interactive nature of Lisp
2020-10-29T06:06:05Z dbotton_: so you would need complier support
2020-10-29T06:07:19Z dbotton_: or a macro and some table behind it
2020-10-29T06:08:50Z beach: dbotton_: Functions don't have names, so you can't rename them.
2020-10-29T06:09:00Z dbotton_: of course not
2020-10-29T06:09:00Z beach: dbotton_: Just like numbers don't have names.
2020-10-29T06:09:09Z wxie: Is there anybody who has problem to open #emacs channel?
2020-10-29T06:09:17Z dbotton_: I can though rename the symbol point to it
2020-10-29T06:09:31Z beach: dbotton_: No, you can't rename a symbol either.
2020-10-29T06:09:46Z markasoftware: did you try this dbotton_ (setf (fdefinition 'new-symbol) #'old)
2020-10-29T06:09:52Z beach: dbotton_: You can change the binding of a symbol so that it refers to a different object.
2020-10-29T06:09:52Z dbotton_: yes works
2020-10-29T06:09:55Z dbotton_: metioned it
2020-10-29T06:10:30Z dbotton_: merkasoftware I renamed a closure worked perfect with both symbols
2020-10-29T06:10:52Z dbotton_: someone pointed out that some things won't transfer over
2020-10-29T06:10:54Z beach: dbotton_: You can't rename a closure because closures don't have names.
2020-10-29T06:10:56Z no-defun-allowed: I think I've had enough #lisp for today.
2020-10-29T06:10:57Z dbotton_: like the doc string
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2020-10-29T06:11:24Z dbotton_: I hope not because of me left :(
2020-10-29T06:11:25Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I understand.  I am almost there, and I have only been here for 2 hours.
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2020-10-29T06:11:51Z beach: dbotton_: You keep repeating incorrect phrases, so I wouldn't be surprised.
2020-10-29T06:12:38Z dbotton_: trying to learn the correct idioms and terms, sorry
2020-10-29T06:13:19Z beach: dbotton_: Common Lisp has the concept of "binding" which means that a "name" is associated with an "object".
2020-10-29T06:13:22Z dbotton_: so how would I say properly
2020-10-29T06:13:47Z dbotton_: ok so I want to bind the same object to two symbols
2020-10-29T06:14:16Z beach: That's already better.
2020-10-29T06:14:37Z beach: I think we usually say it the other way around.  Two different symbols (or names in general) are bound to the same object.
2020-10-29T06:15:02Z beach: That's what happens when you do (defparameter *a* 234) (defparameter *b* *a*)
2020-10-29T06:15:09Z beach: That doesn't mean that 234 has a name.
2020-10-29T06:15:58Z beach: In the global environment, you can bind function names to functions.  A function name is either a symbol or a list (SETF <symbol>).
2020-10-29T06:17:24Z dbotton_: ok, so for a variable
2020-10-29T06:17:44Z dbotton_: a symbol is bound to a number?
2020-10-29T06:18:50Z beach: A symbol can be bound to any object.  (defparameter *f* #'car) makes the value of *f* be the function CAR.  In this case, the symbol *f* is bound to the function in the variable namespace, as opposed to the function namespace.
2020-10-29T06:19:49Z beach: (setf (fdefinition '*f*) #'car) binds *f* to the function CAR in the function namespace.
2020-10-29T06:19:50Z dbotton_: Just realized forgot there are two namespaces in cl
2020-10-29T06:20:01Z beach: Way more than that.
2020-10-29T06:20:40Z beach: For classes, method combinations, types, etc.
2020-10-29T06:20:57Z beach: Packages.
2020-10-29T06:20:58Z mfiano: In PAIP, it is mentioned that there are at least 7, plus user-defined ones.
2020-10-29T06:21:12Z dbotton_: So is a Lisp-* not a list 2
2020-10-29T06:21:17Z dbotton_: lisp 2
2020-10-29T06:21:20Z beach: And PAIP is pre-CLOS, right?
2020-10-29T06:22:08Z cl-arthur: PAIP chapter 13 is on CLOS
2020-10-29T06:22:21Z beach: Oops, memory! :(
2020-10-29T06:22:43Z beach: cl-arthur: Thanks!
2020-10-29T06:23:25Z aeth: This shows you all of the binding namespaces, although some overlap so it's not the most convenient breakdown. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_aa.htm
2020-10-29T06:23:42Z aeth: e.g. 3.1.1.1 and 3.1.1.3 both have functions, which are obviously the same namespace
2020-10-29T06:24:54Z aeth: the big ones are variables/constants, functions/macros/special-operators, and types/classes
2020-10-29T06:25:01Z aeth: so even if you ignore the niche ones, it's a Lisp-3
2020-10-29T06:27:24Z dbotton_: so to have a second symbol bound to a function can use - (setf (fdefinition 'new-symbol) #'old) and for a second symbol bound to a variable (defparameter)
2020-10-29T06:27:30Z mfiano: beach: 24.1, section "The Seven Name Spaces"
2020-10-29T06:27:36Z mfiano: Yes, pre -CLOS I believe
2020-10-29T06:27:39Z beach: mfiano: Thanks.
2020-10-29T06:28:12Z aeth: oh, anything added by, say, the MOP wouldn't be in the hyperspec, either
2020-10-29T06:28:29Z beach: So, whenever there is a discussion about packages, :USE, slot-value vs accessors, modules etc. it almost always ends up with several people uttering something like "I do <description>" without any further comments.  I don't know what to make of that.
2020-10-29T06:28:30Z beach: Sometimes I think it means "I do <description> for which I apologize profusely".  Sometimes "I do <description> and that is really great, so I think everyone should do the same".  I guess I should be more systematic about asking for clarifications.
2020-10-29T06:28:58Z beach: Like asking "Why do you feel compelled to tell us that?"
2020-10-29T06:30:20Z mfiano: The ones he points out are: 1: functions/macros, 2: variables, 3: special variables, 4: types, 5: tagbody labels, 6: block names, 7: constant symbols inside a quoted expression.
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2020-10-29T06:32:44Z dbotton_: I just tried (defparameter CL:test "123") so it seems the only way to add a symbol in another package is to first do (in-package)
2020-10-29T06:34:01Z aeth: CL has a package lock on SBCL
2020-10-29T06:34:26Z aeth: but actually, that's because it's not an exported symbol
2020-10-29T06:34:48Z dbotton_: same issue on other packages
2020-10-29T06:34:58Z aeth: (defpackage bar) (defparameter bar::test "123") ; this works, but :: means you're accessing something that's internal to that package
2020-10-29T06:35:00Z mfiano: That's because it is a reader error
2020-10-29T06:35:19Z dbotton_: ok make sense
2020-10-29T06:35:32Z aeth: (defpackage foo (:export #:test)) (defparameter foo:test "123")
2020-10-29T06:35:50Z dbotton_: the idea was to make a new symbol in a different package
2020-10-29T06:36:01Z aeth: then you'd have to use ::
2020-10-29T06:36:06Z aeth: it's generally frowned upon
2020-10-29T06:36:45Z dbotton_: got it that worked
2020-10-29T06:36:54Z dbotton_: thank you
2020-10-29T06:38:07Z dbotton_: Sorry of my bad Lisp frustrates, working to pronounce things correctly :)
2020-10-29T06:38:31Z aeth: depending on what you're doing (if you're just making the symbol), INTERN could work
2020-10-29T06:39:11Z aeth: (intern "FOO" 'foo) will create a foo::foo
2020-10-29T06:39:13Z mfiano: beach: Often you are one of them, but provide good reasoning, which is also what I happen to follow.
2020-10-29T06:40:02Z aeth: (intern (symbol-name '#:foo) 'foo) ; this is the more defensive way to create foo::foo because your reader might not automatically upcase things, even though it almost certainly does
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2020-10-29T06:41:11Z dbotton_: great, i'll try making my rename-symbol macro tomorrow, thanks (late for me)
2020-10-29T06:41:16Z aeth: i.e. (symbol-name '#:foo) should produce "FOO" but there's a chance that it produces "foo"
2020-10-29T06:41:42Z aeth: it's called "modern mode" and at least 2 implementations have it
2020-10-29T06:41:43Z dbotton_: beach, appreciate the corrections, thank you
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2020-10-29T06:45:18Z aeth: I suppose the most robust way to create a foobar::foo is (intern (symbol-name '#:foo) '#:foobar) to avoid interning a 'foobar to the current package.
2020-10-29T06:46:42Z Nilby: beach: I used to write "I apologize profusely for this pathetic and stupid code" as preface to every module, but I found it wasn't very helpful. Now I write "Bathe in the glory and brillance of this code plucked from jewels of heaven." which seems to work a little better.  BUt seriously, Thank You for discussing again the difficult and opinionated subject of naming.
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2020-10-29T06:57:59Z beach: mfiano: I think I usually give an explanation as to why I think the practice I refer to is good or bad and why I think that.
2020-10-29T06:58:12Z beach: If not, I would like to be told.
2020-10-29T06:59:03Z mfiano: beach: I am talking about those circumventing protocols with SLOT-VALUE/WITH-SLOTS, insisting upon USE-PACKAGE, package granularity decisions, etc. You and I follow very similar practices for writing human-readable/usable/maintainable software. In many years I haven't noticed another developer who cares as much as we do about such things.
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2020-10-29T06:59:41Z beach: Great!
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2020-10-29T11:52:53Z phoe: I'd like to say that the primitive control flow operators in Common Lisp are IF, TAGBODY/GO, BLOCK/RETURN-FROM, CATCH/THROW, and UNWIND-PROTECT - all other are derivatives of those
2020-10-29T11:53:00Z phoe: is this true, or did I miss any?
2020-10-29T11:53:27Z phoe is preparing for a tomorrow's talk to the WASM standardization committee about control flow in CL
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2020-10-29T11:56:26Z phoe: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.1 seems to not mention any other special operators strictly for control flow
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2020-10-29T12:02:55Z flip214: phoe: what about FUNCALL or APPLY?
2020-10-29T12:07:07Z phoe: flip214: those are related to calling functions and I don't know if I should include them
2020-10-29T12:07:32Z phoe: mostly because FUNCALL is there mostly to support CL being a Lisp-N
2020-10-29T12:07:49Z flip214: well, they change the control flow (dynamically, if the destination is in a variable), and can be used to implement some of the other operators
2020-10-29T12:08:33Z phoe: I don't really want to mention metacircularity in there because catch/block/tagbody can all be implemented via dynavars + funcall
2020-10-29T12:08:48Z phoe: but, yes, that's a good point
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2020-10-29T12:19:35Z Xach: phoe: did you see baker's paper on the topic?
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2020-10-29T12:20:49Z Xach: hmm, can't seem to reach his site at the moment
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2020-10-29T12:22:20Z phoe: Xach: https://web.archive.org/web/20191023160058/http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
2020-10-29T12:22:24Z phoe: yes, I meant this paper
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2020-10-29T12:22:36Z phoe: that site has been down for months now, only the archived version remains
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2020-10-29T12:39:49Z Xach: :~(
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2020-10-29T12:42:10Z phoe: ...for a while I thought this is some really weird format control sequence
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2020-10-29T12:42:16Z Xach: ~:D
2020-10-29T12:42:31Z phoe: okay now this is over the line
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2020-10-29T13:36:43Z dbotton_: I know there is \( for example to quote a character. is there a way to escape a character code?
2020-10-29T13:36:55Z dbotton_: printed
2020-10-29T13:37:04Z dbotton_: for format
2020-10-29T13:37:50Z dbotton_: have not seen it any where I look
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2020-10-29T13:43:03Z phoe: what do you mean, escape a character code?
2020-10-29T13:43:11Z phoe: you mean something like #\Newline?
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2020-10-29T13:45:40Z dlowe: dbotton_: in the normal string reading, the only supported "quoted" character is \"
2020-10-29T13:46:04Z dlowe: in a format string, you use the ~% directive to emit a newline
2020-10-29T13:46:34Z dlowe: if you want a weirder character, you have multiple options -- you can use ~c with #\char as an argument
2020-10-29T13:46:43Z dlowe: or you can insert the raw character into the format string
2020-10-29T13:47:19Z dlowe: there is also a cl-interpol library which can give you more complex strings embedded in your code
2020-10-29T13:47:33Z dlowe: dbotton_: you might be interested in joining #clschool
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2020-10-29T13:51:31Z dbotton_: thanks
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2020-10-29T14:09:47Z jmercouris: alright so append accepts &rest lists
2020-10-29T14:09:55Z jmercouris: apply applies a function to a set of arguments
2020-10-29T14:10:03Z jmercouris: (defparameter x (list (list 0 1 2 3) (list 3 4 5)))
2020-10-29T14:10:07Z jmercouris: (apply #'append x)
2020-10-29T14:10:11Z jmercouris: returns (0 1 2 3 4 5)
2020-10-29T14:10:18Z jmercouris: now, this is my intended result
2020-10-29T14:10:20Z jdz: Lies!
2020-10-29T14:10:25Z jmercouris: lies?
2020-10-29T14:10:54Z jdz: One 3 is missing.
2020-10-29T14:10:54Z jmercouris: what I don't understand is HOW apply works
2020-10-29T14:11:02Z jmercouris: ah, yes you are right
2020-10-29T14:11:14Z jmercouris: so in terms of function calls
2020-10-29T14:11:19Z jmercouris: how does it literally look?
2020-10-29T14:11:28Z jmercouris: (append (list 0 1 2 3) (list 3 4 5)) ?
2020-10-29T14:11:49Z jmercouris: what if it was (defparameter x (list (list 0) (list 1) (list 2)))
2020-10-29T14:12:04Z jdz: You should probably also join #clschool
2020-10-29T14:12:06Z jmercouris: would it be (append (append (list 0) (list 1) (list 2)))?
2020-10-29T14:12:18Z jmercouris: ...
2020-10-29T14:12:22Z jmercouris: no, I really shouldn't
2020-10-29T14:12:32Z jmercouris: just because I don't know every single damn function of the spec doesn't mean I should
2020-10-29T14:12:47Z beach: jmercouris: No, FUNCALL applies a function to a list of arguments.
2020-10-29T14:12:55Z beach: jmercouris: APPLY is more complicated than that.
2020-10-29T14:12:57Z jdz: Why are you bringing DEFPARAMETER into this?  A list is a list, no matter where you put it.
2020-10-29T14:13:11Z jmercouris: I am using a defparameter to make things simpler for discussion, we can just refer to X
2020-10-29T14:13:45Z beach: jmercouris: The last argument to APPLY is treated differently from the others.
2020-10-29T14:13:55Z jdz: It feels you're confused (or confusing us) with mixing APPLY and APPEND.
2020-10-29T14:14:47Z jmercouris: I am trying to understand APPLY in this context
2020-10-29T14:15:39Z jmercouris: OK, I clicked through the spec, and I understand now
2020-10-29T14:15:42Z jmercouris: nevermind
2020-10-29T14:16:09Z jmercouris: the description in the CLHS was not helpful
2020-10-29T14:16:10Z jmercouris: "Applies the function to the args. "
2020-10-29T14:16:15Z jdz: If it helps, I'd say: you give APPLY a function and a list, and the function is called with the values in the list.  As a bonus you may put extra values that are prepended to the list directly to APPLY.
2020-10-29T14:16:23Z jmercouris: however, "Applies" was a definition with a link in the CLHS
2020-10-29T14:16:28Z jmercouris: and that was helpful
2020-10-29T14:16:40Z Xach: "apply" is something many people learn very very early in their use of learning Lisp, rather than after writing a web browser for a few years.
2020-10-29T14:16:54Z jmercouris: That's a really cool story Xach, do you think you could tell it again?
2020-10-29T14:17:27Z Xach: Keep on clicking. Eventually it will click.
2020-10-29T14:18:08Z jdz: Xach: what about double-clicking? (Sorry, could not resist.)
2020-10-29T14:18:23Z Xach: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs has interesting info about what it means to eval and apply. So does Lisp in Small Pieces.
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2020-10-29T14:18:52Z Xach: jdz: once-only, please
2020-10-29T14:20:10Z jmercouris: you know what is typically good practice?
2020-10-29T14:20:14Z jmercouris: writing tests
2020-10-29T14:20:30Z jmercouris: I believe any self respectable software project should have tests
2020-10-29T14:21:24Z Bike: (apply f (list a b c ...)) = (funcall f a b c ...). is that what you mean by "how does it literally look"?
2020-10-29T14:21:38Z jmercouris: yes, that was my question, I figured it out after clicking through the CLHS
2020-10-29T14:21:46Z jmercouris: thank you Bike for being a good member of the Lisp community
2020-10-29T14:21:46Z _death: jmercouris: conceptually you can think of apply building the argument list and calling the function with it (spread).. so (apply #'append (list (list 0) (list 1) (list 2))) is the same as (append (list 0) (list 1) (list 2))
2020-10-29T14:22:11Z Bike: if you want to know how it works "under the hood", SICP and LiSP are indeed good starting points
2020-10-29T14:22:26Z Bike: but it shouldn't usually matter much to the programmer, unless they're also a compiler developer or whatnot
2020-10-29T14:23:06Z jmercouris: well, I was just wondering
2020-10-29T14:23:09Z Bike: apply also takes a "spreadable" argument list, meaning that (apply f a b (list c d ...)) = (funcall f a b c d ...)
2020-10-29T14:23:13Z Bike: convenient stuff
2020-10-29T14:23:15Z jmercouris: of course that means I should join cl-school
2020-10-29T14:23:40Z jmercouris: where they cover these very beginner friendly topics such as the underlying implementation of apply
2020-10-29T14:23:47Z jmercouris: I believe they in fact teach this in programming 101
2020-10-29T14:23:52Z jmercouris: maybe even to elementary school students
2020-10-29T14:24:00Z Bike: i mean, maybe you should? i don't mean to be rude, but it is surprising to me that you wouldn't understand how apply works given how long i've seen you around here and you've been working on your browser thing
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2020-10-29T14:24:41Z jmercouris: ...
2020-10-29T14:24:58Z Bike: and yes, i know you were being sarcastic just now
2020-10-29T14:25:14Z Bike: but SICP actually does go into these things and is an introductory textbook
2020-10-29T14:25:43Z jmercouris: I don't care to read SICP
2020-10-29T14:25:57Z jmercouris: I am interested only a small amount in implementation details
2020-10-29T14:26:02Z Bike: fair enough
2020-10-29T14:26:14Z jmercouris: and I came to discuss this topic, not to be chastised as if I am an implementation developer
2020-10-29T14:26:19Z Bike: obviously you know how to program, but you have different background knowledge than i'd expect, so answering your questions takes some thought
2020-10-29T14:26:22Z Bike: is all
2020-10-29T14:26:39Z jmercouris: understood
2020-10-29T14:26:49Z jmercouris: I appreciate you, thanks
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2020-10-29T14:28:46Z Bike: as for how it works at low level, it depends on the implementation of course, but probably somewhat like C's va_args if you're familiar. functions in general are passed an argument count and have access (as a passed argument or stereotypical stack location or something) to memory where arguments beyond the first few go
2020-10-29T14:28:52Z Bike: e.g., in sbcl http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/Full-Calls.html#Full-Calls
2020-10-29T14:29:20Z Bike: (details of this page may be out of date, but the argcount is passed in a register, as you can see)
2020-10-29T14:30:45Z jmercouris: I see
2020-10-29T14:31:41Z Bike: then the apply function just takes a list, allocates stack space or whatever, puts the elements of the list there, and calls. APPLY itself probably can't be written without access to implementation internals
2020-10-29T14:31:49Z Bike: which is why it's part of the standard library, obvs
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2020-10-29T14:33:02Z beach: Bike: You came up with a good description of jmercouris' knowledge.  I am often as baffled as you are, but couldn't figure out a good way of putting it.
2020-10-29T14:33:33Z _death: apply calls the function once, but maybe you thought about reduce, since (reduce #'append (list (list 0) (list 1) (list 2))) would chain the calls like (append (append (list 0) (list 1)) (list 2)) ;; disregarding order of evaluation
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2020-10-29T14:35:05Z jmercouris: _death: that was my motivation for thinking about it, yes
2020-10-29T14:35:25Z jmercouris: which is why you'll see in the very beginning I asked about what it literally does under the hood
2020-10-29T14:35:32Z jmercouris: and offered two versions
2020-10-29T14:35:48Z jmercouris: well, two interpretations of how I thought it might be actually executing
2020-10-29T14:36:23Z Xach: There was an interesting community of people extending GIMP via its scheme-based script-fu extension, and the Scheme code there was essentially "C with funny formatting" in terms of how it used scheme's features and capabilities. people wanted only to manipulate graphics and had no interest in learning about scheme or how it worked. only the bare minimum syntax to make e.g. flaming text.
2020-10-29T14:36:33Z _death: if you want to experiment, you can (defun qappend (&rest args) `(apply ,@args)) and apply/reduce with that function
2020-10-29T14:36:44Z Xach: the code was 90% "foreign" calls into the C core of GIMP, and its C plugins.
2020-10-29T14:36:48Z _death: er, `(append ,@args)
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2020-10-29T14:43:31Z beach: Xach: What made you think of that story?
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2020-10-29T14:45:53Z Xach: beach: I was thinking about the different goals people have when learning to use a tool. Is a single result the most important thing? Is proficiency and skill a goal? Does proficiency and skill and well-rounded knowledge ultimately matter for certain goals? Is there a cultural component to pride in skilled workmanship?
2020-10-29T14:46:48Z Xach: This channel has many enthusiasts who to some degree take pride in skill for skill's sake. How much does that matter in general?
2020-10-29T14:47:05Z beach: Ah, yes, I see.  Very interesting questions.  And a good analysis of #lisp, which is why I like to hang out here.
2020-10-29T14:47:14Z _death: matters to whom
2020-10-29T14:47:32Z Xach: Also a good question.
2020-10-29T14:47:32Z phoe: I learned Lisp so I could prove my university pals that they're wrong and you can can make money off it and that they should consider me less insane that they did for doing all the Lisp I did
2020-10-29T14:47:49Z phoe: I achieved all of these goals, aside from that last one
2020-10-29T14:48:01Z beach: phoe: Yes, and now you can ask how many books they have published!
2020-10-29T14:48:21Z phoe: actually, that's not really a strictly Lisp-related thing
2020-10-29T14:48:33Z jackdaniel: I think that he could ask many lisp programmers the same thing -- it doesn't make a conclusive evidence that lisp is better ,-)
2020-10-29T14:48:33Z phoe: I've promised myself that my second book will be a fantasy novel
2020-10-29T14:48:58Z Xach: I am interested in woodworking, and though I hate when tech nerds draw too many parallels to their non-tech hobbies, I am reminded a bit of the divide between people who endlessly discuss the cool tools they have acquired or mastered and the people who discuss what they have made regardless of the tool.
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2020-10-29T14:49:10Z phoe: ;; and, knowing life, I'll get frustrated by something lispy and write another Lisp tech book instead
2020-10-29T14:50:14Z Xach: I enjoy most the output of people who master a wide variety of tools (they are dogmatic about "japanese vs western" or "power vs hand" etc) and pragmatically apply them to achieve interesting results.
2020-10-29T14:50:26Z Xach: are NOT dogmatic, rather
2020-10-29T14:51:03Z Xach: I like the pragmatic aspects of Common Lisp, and also that it seems to be the product of careful, thoughtful engineering to solve pragmatic problems.
2020-10-29T14:52:04Z beach: Xach: I think I have a similar feeling when I see people reject interesting tools like FORMAT, CLOS, LOOP, etc. for dogmatic reasons.
2020-10-29T14:52:29Z beach: "It is not Lisp-y"
2020-10-29T14:52:45Z beach: "I hate object-oriented programming"
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2020-10-29T14:54:01Z jackdaniel: (or FFI ;)
2020-10-29T14:54:17Z Xach: i am only frightened by FFI, i do not hate it
2020-10-29T14:54:40Z beach: jackdaniel: I don't think I ever said I hate FFI.
2020-10-29T14:54:44Z Xach: but i was also once frightened by a chainsaw and sawmill and now i use them all the time to very fruitful ends, so...maybe it's FFI time!
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2020-10-29T14:55:17Z jackdaniel: beach: I'm only joking, and I know that you do not hate it (I also agree, that we should work on native tools)
2020-10-29T14:55:35Z beach: Got it!
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2020-10-29T14:56:22Z Xach: i accidentally used the term "domestic code" to contrast with foreign code and i like the sound of it
2020-10-29T14:56:55Z beach: Yes, not bad.
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2020-10-29T15:10:47Z Kabriel: Sometimes this channel can be a bit edgy, but it might be external influences -- seems like a lot of tension in the world today.
2020-10-29T15:11:07Z Kabriel: There is some difference between, "I just want to do X" and wanting to understand a concept from a more technical perspective.
2020-10-29T15:11:11Z Kabriel: The latter being more aligned with improved craftsmanship.
2020-10-29T15:11:26Z Kabriel: Obviously people here have different goals, but there are a few with different backgrounds, too.
2020-10-29T15:11:39Z Kabriel: I come from an engineering background, although I have done programming in that field the whole time.
2020-10-29T15:11:44Z Kabriel: I find that my questions, especially the initial one, seems on the surface to be basic, because I might be missing a concept (or two) to formulate the question better.
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2020-10-29T15:18:12Z beach: Kabriel: I think we usually treat such questions quite well.
2020-10-29T15:18:39Z beach: Incorrect terminology might be corrected, but that's a good thing I think.
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2020-10-29T15:22:49Z dim: s/but/and/ I would propose.
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2020-10-29T15:23:06Z dlowe: I'm not sure it always is a good thing.
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2020-10-29T15:23:54Z Kabriel: I like knowing the correct terminology. It helps me learn. And, as mentioned earlier, Bike had a great response.
2020-10-29T15:24:01Z jackdaniel: correction may cause two reactions: 1) person in question learns something, 2) person in question gets angry and leaves; one could argue that it is a very positive filter
2020-10-29T15:24:12Z Kabriel: I was just trying to add to the thoughts Xach brought up
2020-10-29T15:24:18Z dlowe: when someone is starting out, they're going to have valid questions without knowing the terms.  Insisting that the question use correct terms is a lot less helpful than answering the presumed question and *then* introducing the terms.
2020-10-29T15:26:11Z dlowe: I don't believe only thick-skinned people have something to contribute.
2020-10-29T15:26:18Z Kabriel: dlowe: my point was starting out with lisp having a good CS education is different than not having that particular background
2020-10-29T15:26:44Z dlowe: Kabriel: sure.
2020-10-29T15:27:24Z dbotton: I personally love being corrected and ergo I love to learn
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2020-10-29T15:29:38Z dlowe: If someone asks how to malloc a new object and their only answer is "you don't malloc in lisp, you cons" then even though it's a correction I don't think it's helpful.
2020-10-29T15:29:50Z jackdaniel: I usually give slack to new people, but when someone consistently refuses to learn and reacts with anger to corrections -- that bothers me
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2020-10-29T15:32:43Z dlowe: well, some people are just unreachable, but I would examine my own role before reaching that judgement.
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2020-10-29T15:34:34Z dbotton_: dlowe I joice the #clschool channel as but suggested but msgs I send do not go through to it
2020-10-29T15:34:50Z dbotton_: " #clschool :Cannot send to nick/channel"
2020-10-29T15:36:34Z dlowe: dbotton_: probably because you're not registered with nickserv
2020-10-29T15:36:49Z dlowe: dbotton_: we had a big problem with spammers
2020-10-29T15:37:01Z dbotton_: so appologies if too low a level question for here -  Is there a list of the #+ compiler directives (and what is the correct nomeclature)? At the moment just need to determine what OS I am on, but can not see to find a list of them any place
2020-10-29T15:37:09Z beach: We allow unregistered people in #lisp?
2020-10-29T15:37:21Z dlowe: dbotton_: #+ looks at the cl:*features* variable
2020-10-29T15:37:40Z dlowe: so you can evaluate that in your repl to view what is there
2020-10-29T15:37:46Z jackdaniel: it is a reader macro
2020-10-29T15:37:59Z dlowe: beach: apparently!
2020-10-29T15:38:11Z jackdaniel: dbotton_: you may search for such things also here: http://l1sp.org/search?q=%23%2B
2020-10-29T15:38:21Z dbotton_: I usually do
2020-10-29T15:38:27Z dbotton_: or other ways
2020-10-29T15:38:29Z jackdaniel: got it
2020-10-29T15:38:36Z dbotton_: I haven't come accross a list
2020-10-29T15:38:42Z dlowe: there's no list
2020-10-29T15:38:56Z dlowe: might be a useful thing to put on cliki though
2020-10-29T15:39:07Z dlowe: at least all the ones that implementations set
2020-10-29T15:39:11Z dbotton_: So how do I know what #+ to put for windows, other compilers etc
2020-10-29T15:39:27Z _death: the implementation may document it
2020-10-29T15:39:44Z dlowe: if you're like me, you write a library, open source it, and let other people figure it out
2020-10-29T15:40:03Z dbotton_: well sometimes it is a feature of what you are writing
2020-10-29T15:40:23Z dlowe: dbotton_: you could look at how some of the trivial- libraries do it
2020-10-29T15:40:44Z XachX: trivial-features normalizes some of those I believe.
2020-10-29T15:40:57Z dbotton_: Yes and planned to do so, was just hoping there was a list / standard something
2020-10-29T15:41:39Z _death: here's a list for sbcl https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/base-target-features.lisp-expr
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2020-10-29T15:45:13Z dbotton_: thank you
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2020-10-29T15:49:15Z _death: hmm, the trivial-features package contains a reference to Krystof's features paper, but seems to require a login nowadays :/
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2020-10-29T15:53:31Z _death: dlowe: btw looks like cliki already has a page https://www.cliki.net/features
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2020-10-29T19:49:38Z ane: are there any common lisp mailing lists that are active? or is it mostly irc and reddit these days?
2020-10-29T19:50:20Z Inline: comp.lang.lisp
2020-10-29T19:50:25Z Inline: afaik
2020-10-29T19:50:52Z jackdaniel: ane: many people are on discord
2020-10-29T19:50:56Z jackdaniel: I don't have address though
2020-10-29T19:55:00Z ane: Inline: you mean the newsgroup?
2020-10-29T19:56:15Z dbotton_: https://discord.gg/HsxkkvQ
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2020-10-29T20:06:50Z Inline: yes
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2020-10-29T20:14:35Z aeth: reddit kind of fills the role comp.lang.lisp used to fill afaik
2020-10-29T20:15:04Z aeth: https://old.reddit.com/r/lisp/ and https://old.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/
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2020-10-29T20:21:26Z floran: who
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2020-10-29T20:28:05Z moon-child: c.l.l is still alive.  Just not very active
2020-10-29T20:30:31Z floran 
2020-10-29T20:30:44Z moon-child 
2020-10-29T20:31:18Z phoe: you two are among the wisest of people
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2020-10-29T20:31:30Z floran: thx
2020-10-29T20:32:10Z moon-child:  
2020-10-29T20:32:46Z floran: haven't used IRC for 20 years or so
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2020-10-29T20:38:19Z phoe: welcome back!
2020-10-29T20:38:57Z Inline: got the book phoe eheh, just read one chapter or so
2020-10-29T20:39:05Z Inline: thank you
2020-10-29T20:39:18Z phoe: <3
2020-10-29T20:39:27Z phoe: we will be publishing another online appendix soon
2020-10-29T20:39:34Z Inline: why ?
2020-10-29T20:39:43Z phoe: this is because we just realized that the dead-tree version has no hyperlinks whatsoever
2020-10-29T20:39:49Z phoe: not even footnotes, anything
2020-10-29T20:39:53Z dlowe: oh no time for a second edition already
2020-10-29T20:40:02Z Inline: errata ?
2020-10-29T20:40:15Z Inline: oh, footnotes lol
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2020-10-29T20:41:03Z Inline: the C macrology there is mindbending too
2020-10-29T20:41:11Z Inline: fewww
2020-10-29T20:41:12Z phoe: yes, errata - in form of an appendix though, since that'll be much better than just publishing a raw list of links
2020-10-29T20:41:19Z Inline: ok
2020-10-29T20:41:32Z phoe: actually the C macrology is not mine - kudos to the people who have provided me with code and examples
2020-10-29T20:41:43Z Inline: i suppose i'd need a book just for the C preprocessor too
2020-10-29T20:41:44Z phoe: so, Michael, Marco, and Gilbert IIRC
2020-10-29T20:41:47Z Inline: hahahaha
2020-10-29T20:42:16Z phoe: no, seriously, they've improved upon what I originally had and did the same thing over multiple times
2020-10-29T20:42:40Z phoe: dlowe: yes
2020-10-29T20:43:15Z phoe: it's my first book, I don't yet know what to look for :( I thought that the paper version would have physically printed hyperlinks as footnotes, but nope
2020-10-29T20:44:19Z dlowe: well, it's not just your first book, apparently their system has peculiarities
2020-10-29T20:44:35Z dlowe: It's a great book.  Don't sweat it :)
2020-10-29T20:45:35Z Krystof: _death: hm, I wonder if I have any copies anywhere
2020-10-29T20:46:14Z Krystof: _death: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.546.8709&rep=rep1&type=pdf
2020-10-29T20:46:39Z _death: Krystof: thank you
2020-10-29T20:46:53Z Krystof: I'm not sure I believe everything in that any more, mind you :-)
2020-10-29T20:47:13Z _death: I read it some years ago, will need to review
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2020-10-29T21:40:34Z _death: Krystof: it seems mostly agreeable to me.. maybe with the exception of the advice to avoid pushing at load-time (which 4.1 admits may have disadvantages) and 4.2 (because I agree that testing against versions is bad, that also goes for software-version.. hopefully the operating system provides its own facilities for testing for capabilities/limits/support/whatnot)
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2020-10-29T21:59:10Z Krystof: 2004-era me was wise
2020-10-29T21:59:14Z Krystof: shame about 2020-era me
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2020-10-29T22:07:53Z _death: do you believe the advice in the paper is wrong?
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2020-10-29T22:10:48Z Krystof: No, I still generally think that #+reader #+conditional #+stuff (particularly things like "this is an implementation called SBCL" as a proxy for various bits of behaviour) is unwise
2020-10-29T22:11:02Z Krystof: it can sometimes be expedient, but it imposes longer-term costs
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2020-10-29T22:12:04Z Inline: the cost of portability
2020-10-29T22:12:15Z Inline: the only cost that a lisper knows of
2020-10-29T22:12:17Z Inline: hahahahahaha
2020-10-29T22:12:18Z Inline: lol
2020-10-29T22:12:37Z Krystof: (implementation behaviour changes over time)
2020-10-29T22:13:28Z Krystof: as for load-time... I think I would tend to suggest an absolute free-for-all of pushing system-specific feature symbols (i.e. those not in CL / KEYWORD packages)
2020-10-29T22:13:43Z Krystof: and probably a blanket ban on pushing CL/KEYWORD symbols at load-time
2020-10-29T22:14:16Z Krystof: agreed that software-type and software-version aren't good enough to test for needed functionality
2020-10-29T22:14:27Z Krystof: that's my 2020-era view
2020-10-29T22:14:55Z _death: yeah, unless maybe it's :library-name-this-or-that-feature
2020-10-29T22:17:02Z Krystof: awkward, isn't it
2020-10-29T22:17:39Z Krystof: because really you'd want #+foo:feature (foo:do-something) to be OK if FOO is not loaded, but of course it's an error
2020-10-29T22:17:48Z Krystof: whereas #+foo-feature (foo:do-something) is fine
2020-10-29T22:17:54Z easye: *features* could use some sort of scoping.  Namespaces?
2020-10-29T22:17:55Z _death: right
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2020-10-29T22:18:17Z _death: also, why isn't there (documentation 'foo 'feature)
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2020-10-29T22:18:21Z Krystof: ha
2020-10-29T22:18:32Z easye: _death: I like that.
2020-10-29T22:19:00Z easye: One could store those sort of annotations on symbol property lists.
2020-10-29T22:19:44Z _death: could have trivial-features define a symbol to specialize on in documentation methods
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2020-10-29T22:20:19Z Krystof: or we could define ~ as a dispatch macro character (reserved to implementors) and have ~+ and ~- do what we secretly want #+ and #- to do
2020-10-29T22:20:25Z _death: but then users will need to depend on it.. so #+trivial-features ;)
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2020-10-29T22:28:01Z _death: maybe ~cond too...
2020-10-29T22:29:51Z Krystof: yeah
2020-10-29T22:29:54Z Krystof: hours of fun
2020-10-29T22:30:24Z Krystof: ~(find-package "FOO") foo:(hours 'of 'fun)
2020-10-29T22:30:48Z Krystof: ~:foo
2020-10-29T22:31:35Z Krystof: anyway.  The Common Lisp world's conspicuous lack of taking over the world over the last 16 years is probably not because people are using too many, or too few, reader conditionals
2020-10-29T22:31:48Z _death: heh, I was thinking ~cond (((and :foo :bar) ...) (t ...))
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2020-10-29T23:51:23Z Xach: so many reader conditionals
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2020-10-30T00:14:33Z dlowe: Honestly, computer languages live and die due to money, actual money and perceived money.  There's no substitute.
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2020-10-30T00:21:14Z aeth: languages don't die unless they're proprietary and they stop getting updates, but even then it takes a very long time... see VB6
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2020-10-30T03:01:16Z jasom: Xach's CLHS lookup seems to be broken: https://www.xach.com/clhs?q=%23X
2020-10-30T03:03:42Z mfiano: Didn't know about that one
2020-10-30T03:03:45Z mfiano: I use his http://l1sp.org/search?q=%23X
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2020-10-30T03:45:07Z aeth: you can search l1sp.org via DuckDuckGo with !l1sp e.g. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=!l1sp+car
2020-10-30T03:45:28Z aeth: that one simple thing probably makes me use DDG more than Google even though Google's results are better
2020-10-30T03:46:24Z mfiano: I just register a search engine for it in my browser
2020-10-30T03:47:09Z aeth: directly? interesting
2020-10-30T03:47:59Z mfiano: Yeah `l term` searches l1sp for me
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2020-10-30T04:04:21Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-30T04:07:41Z rx_: hello
2020-10-30T04:09:28Z beach: Hello rx_.
2020-10-30T04:10:19Z beach: rx_: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2020-10-30T04:10:43Z rx_: I've been here once or twice under a different nick
2020-10-30T04:11:31Z beach: Ah, I see.  That explains it.
2020-10-30T04:12:40Z rx_: don't mind me, just here to see lispers (is that a word?) in action
2020-10-30T04:13:24Z beach: Sure, that's fine.  Speak up if you need anything.
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2020-10-30T09:36:54Z dim: other than money I keep thinking that a good way for Common Lisp to get more usage and spotlight would be with an infra-level solution that just happens to be written in it... Erlang has telecom routeurs (then later WhatsApp), Go has docker and k8s, Java has many things including Cassandra, Javascript has NodeJS and the browser market, Python has django, Ruby has Rails, etc
2020-10-30T09:37:39Z dim: what's a flagship product written in Common Lisp that people either use or respect and that they don't have to know that it's written in CL?
2020-10-30T09:37:44Z ane: pgloader
2020-10-30T09:37:58Z dim: I wish, not the case, and I'm recruiting contributors to the project too
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2020-10-30T09:40:41Z beach: I meant for GSharp to be such a product, but I made some design mistakes.  I am hoping to correct those mistakes in version 2, called Clovetree.
2020-10-30T09:41:33Z beach: Plus, there are now much better free music fonts, so things should be simpler this time.
2020-10-30T09:42:31Z ane: I would also say stumpwm but I think everyone using it knows it's written in cl
2020-10-30T09:42:44Z ane: pgloader less so
2020-10-30T09:44:46Z scymtym: at dayjob, i made an application that is in some ways similar to pgloader but it generate CI and build configurations for systems of multiple software projects. despite working efficiently and reliably, people cite the fact that the implementation language is CL as the biggest problem, because "it stops people from understanding it and contributing to it". so i think the "killer app" approach gets people interested in the application,
2020-10-30T09:44:46Z scymtym: not the language
2020-10-30T09:44:47Z dim: have you used GuitarPro already beach ? from a small company in France (around Lille, if that's still relevant, and assuming it still is the case)
2020-10-30T09:45:46Z dim: scymtym: I have the same problem with pgloader, people see Common Lisp, sometimes they go as far as opening a source file in the browser, and then they're like “ok I can't contribute to that, it's encrypted in lisp”
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2020-10-30T09:46:54Z lottaquestions: dim:Best quote ever “ok I can't contribute to that, it's encrypted in lisp” :-D
2020-10-30T09:47:45Z scymtym: dim: right. i wouldn't consider that a problem per se, but in the dayjob context it meant that "rewriting it in python" was always on the table
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2020-10-30T09:48:42Z beach: dim: I have not.
2020-10-30T09:50:02Z dim: beach: 10 years ago it could have been a competitor to GSharp, nowadays they are well more than 10 years ahead of what you began working on if I'm not mistaken, it's impressive, and almost every guitar player I have seen using tabs on a screen is using GuitarPro, often a illegal copy of it
2020-10-30T09:51:08Z dim: I even paid for a copy of it, twice (desktop and then tablet edition), and I consider myself a proponent of free software
2020-10-30T09:51:16Z dim: anyway
2020-10-30T09:52:13Z dim: scymtym: I think people expect code to look like C/Java/Python/Go/Rust nowadays, and Lisp/Erlang is just too foreign for most brains, they're afraid of it... Erlang managed to get quite a good group of users, but still so far away from the mainstream
2020-10-30T09:52:39Z phoe: dim: erlang got more popular because elixir looks more like C
2020-10-30T09:52:49Z pve: A single pgloader (as good as it is) may not have a big impact, but when there are a hundred pgloaders ("killer apps"), people might look at them and say "Gee, look at all these cool apps! I guess I should start learning the language".
2020-10-30T09:52:54Z phoe: ;; or, read: less like prolog
2020-10-30T09:53:14Z dim: pve: yeah I also started pgcharts and other things, but we still have such a long way to go
2020-10-30T09:53:45Z dim: also I think the McCLIM efforts could get somewhere real nice, including the text based version for terminals, strangely enough
2020-10-30T09:55:03Z dim: pve: and pgloader is not that good ; users keep seeing “heap exhausted” and can't get out of that easily, and can't use CCL to compile it because CCL isn't in debian (which is the main docker OS I believe), all because the build system of CCL depends on a patched version of gcc or something
2020-10-30T09:55:23Z pve: dim: I hope you understand that I did not mean that you alone should be responsible for making all these killer apps :)
2020-10-30T09:56:09Z dim: also don't get me started on FFI in Common Lisp and specifically openssl, it's an hell loop of its own... Go implemented SSL in Go, Java I think did the same, sometimes I dream of a modern TLS implementation in pure CL
2020-10-30T09:56:20Z phoe: dim: actually the CCL build system requires CCL which is an issue
2020-10-30T09:56:25Z scymtym: dim: i'm not sure. in my case the context is academic and people use prolog (unfamiliar syntax), smt-lib or pddl (s-expression syntax) without hesitation if it helps their research. but for "engineering"-related software, it's apparently different
2020-10-30T09:56:31Z phoe: it's the bootstrapping problem
2020-10-30T09:56:35Z phoe: (AFAIK)
2020-10-30T09:57:02Z dim: pve: hehe, yeah, but nobody's contributing to pgloader already, well, some are like phoe, but we're still missing contributors and time
2020-10-30T09:57:15Z phoe: I'm contributing very little :(
2020-10-30T09:57:23Z phoe: mostly just an issue comment now and then
2020-10-30T09:57:30Z dim: phoe: I don't think the bootstrapping prevents inclusion in debian, they have a way to make that happen with pushing a binary-only package first
2020-10-30T09:58:03Z dim: scymtym: oh it's even worse than what I though then
2020-10-30T09:58:24Z phoe: dim: found it, https://bugs.debian.org/609047
2020-10-30T09:58:25Z jdz: phoe: I think the popularity of Elixir is because it looks more like Ruby (and it has the Ruby on Rails analog).
2020-10-30T09:58:33Z dim: I've been writing C code on a daily basis again for ~2 years now and I can tell you I miss CL very much ;-)
2020-10-30T09:58:50Z beach: dim: I see (about GuitarPro).
2020-10-30T09:58:51Z phoe: jdz: s/C/Ruby/
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2020-10-30T10:00:46Z dim: beach: they pushed the bar very high (pun not intended... although... maybe a little0
2020-10-30T10:01:06Z beach: Heh.
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2020-10-30T10:14:51Z dim: what would be amazing in that space, beach, I believe, would be a tool that knows how to parse the crappy ascii-art tabs found on so many websites and turn them into editable actual parts... with a way to export them in the GuitarPro format if that's possible... but that might be completely different from what you want to do... just a thought
2020-10-30T10:15:19Z beach: Yes, I see.  And yes, very different.
2020-10-30T10:19:42Z pve: dim: I think you're being to modest. An app that gets actual users is something to be proud of. And there will always be bugs.
2020-10-30T10:19:42Z easye muses that could probably get pretty far by machine learning the corpus of existing ASCII tableaus.
2020-10-30T10:20:45Z easye: But that wouldn't really be a showcase for our favorite CONS (other than developing the toolset to do ML).
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2020-10-30T10:38:30Z dim: pve: thanks for the kind words, means a lot to me!
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2020-10-30T10:38:46Z phoe: ^
2020-10-30T10:38:49Z dim: that said I can see more things yet to be done in pgloader than things that are already usable
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2020-10-30T10:40:42Z phoe: I second what pve said; for every bug ticket on pgloader there's many uses where people don't submit bug tickets because there's no bugs
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2020-10-30T10:45:23Z dim: yeah, I consider bug tickets / issues to be presents from only the super motivated users, I kind of cherish them, that's not my issue
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2020-10-30T10:47:40Z dim: what I would like to see happening in pgloader and that I can't find the time to do are many things, including: fix the MySQL driver (qmynd) for the new default auth scheme in MySQL 8.0.1, add support for ODBC connections, offer ODBC instead of FreeTDS for talking to MS SQL, in a way that you can build pgloader without FreeTDS, then fix building pgloader on windows and make windows properly supported as a target, add Oracle support (using ODBC), clean up the
2020-10-30T10:47:40Z dim:  code internally, some parts are a crufty old mess still, understand and fix “head exhausted” errors when using SBCL, review performances, etc etc
2020-10-30T10:48:19Z dim: another project I can think of is make it possible to produce pgloader.jar using ABCL and in there use only JDBC drivers, and then see about Oracle and DB2 support using JDBC
2020-10-30T10:49:10Z dim: yet another project is plconvert that is a compiler I have begun to write to rewrite Oracle PL/SQL in Postgres PLpgSQL, a full blown compiler with intermediate representation and optimisation passes, the current work is re-doing the parser entirely from Oracle docs
2020-10-30T10:49:12Z dim: anyway
2020-10-30T10:49:28Z dim: that's all those things I'm not doing (ENOTIME) that make me sad about the state of pgloader
2020-10-30T10:50:47Z dim: also I would like to fix that when only users of pgloader are enterprise employees they could contribute either time or money or both to the project, and no one is doing that, it's free and they expect it to magically do their job and never send the Moral Licence document to their bosses
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2020-10-30T10:51:00Z dim: I won't fix the world today though ;-) thanks for listening ;-)
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2020-10-30T11:08:42Z ldb: good evening
2020-10-30T11:15:29Z Xach: dim: cool
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2020-10-30T11:41:51Z ldb: I think I need a stable ML dialect with extensible surface grammar
2020-10-30T11:41:57Z ldb: just find thing https://github.com/stylewarning/coalton/blob/master/src/library.lisp
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2020-10-30T11:45:17Z phoe: coalton is <3
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2020-10-30T12:16:04Z andrew_znc: Is there a channel for Emacs Lisp?
2020-10-30T12:16:17Z phoe: #emacs most likely
2020-10-30T12:16:37Z andrew_znc: yup maygbe
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2020-10-30T13:12:02Z easye: dim: with abcl-1.8.0 able to address FASLs in "ueberjars", I think packaging a complete pgloader.jar is very doable.  I'll see what I can scratch together as a POC when I find some cycles.
2020-10-30T13:12:22Z easye: err "complete standalone pgloader.jar"
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2020-10-30T13:17:04Z phoe: look, pgloader is a java application
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2020-10-30T14:00:16Z Josh_2: Good afternoon
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2020-10-30T15:01:39Z phoe: hey Josh_2
2020-10-30T15:02:21Z phoe: Dear #lisp, I'd like to get some feedback on a presentation that I'll present to W3C on 30th November (not today, as I thought). I'll likely want to turn this presentation into an Online Lisp Meeting next week
2020-10-30T15:02:28Z phoe: link to slides: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/297478350145060875/771749854812700762/Control_Flow_in_Common_Lisp.pdf
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2020-10-30T15:03:58Z phoe: the slides should be mostly self-explanatory, except for some terms in the last slides of the main slide deck that are WASM-specific
2020-10-30T15:05:40Z Xach: phoe: the stack diagram sequence is a little sparse (the stacked rectangles of calls) - i assume detail will be provided by your script?
2020-10-30T15:05:54Z scymtym: phoe: since the presentation is rather long, maybe add an agenda slide before or after introducing yourself
2020-10-30T15:06:25Z Xach: (i haven't gotten very far)
2020-10-30T15:08:53Z dim: it's a lot of material! how much time do you have?
2020-10-30T15:09:00Z phoe: Xach: which slide number?
2020-10-30T15:09:07Z phoe: dim: 35 minutes that I will try to extend to an hour
2020-10-30T15:09:25Z dim: wow, good luck with that ;-)
2020-10-30T15:09:35Z phoe: scymtym: I'll do that, yes
2020-10-30T15:09:38Z Xach: phoe: 16
2020-10-30T15:09:47Z dim: it might be that you're diving a little too much in some of the control flow operators of Common Lisp, given your audience there?
2020-10-30T15:09:52Z phoe: Xach: yes, that's in my script
2020-10-30T15:10:12Z phoe: dim: I am diving into the control flow operators because the whole idea is to describe these control flow operators
2020-10-30T15:10:23Z phoe: so they can be taken into account while standardizing wasm
2020-10-30T15:10:44Z dim: oh my understanding was that the topic is a generalisation of exceptions such as with conditions
2020-10-30T15:11:00Z _death: indeed, you should think about slides/s
2020-10-30T15:11:09Z dim: then it makes more sense, and maybe the intro could be reviewed to make your goal/point more obvious?
2020-10-30T15:11:40Z phoe: dim: actually the title slide, I think, describes my idea
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2020-10-30T15:12:04Z phoe: I am talking about control flow and why "exception handling in Common Lisp" or even "condition system in Common Lisp" are false flags from the low-level perspective
2020-10-30T15:12:12Z phoe: s/false flags/red herrings/
2020-10-30T15:13:16Z phoe: in CL, we don't need exception handling, we need good flow control so we can properly implement a condition system
2020-10-30T15:13:28Z phoe: that's what I hope to convey through this meeting
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2020-10-30T15:16:07Z dim: (it's like with young kids that aren't that interested in the topic, you need to make the intro, explain the why and the how, and make all the points, and when you think it's a wow, you put a big wow on the slide, red and all)
2020-10-30T15:18:46Z phoe: dim: hmmmm
2020-10-30T15:18:51Z phoe: yes, I will certainly add an agenda section
2020-10-30T15:20:09Z dim: your title could be “why you don't need exceptions in the core language” or “how to best implement exceptions from pieces” or something like that
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2020-10-30T15:20:46Z dim: (from my understanding of what you just said here, so with a serious grain of salt)
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2020-10-30T15:23:19Z phoe: dim: yes; the title is already established though so I don't want to change it too much
2020-10-30T15:23:24Z phoe: I'll see if it can be changed though
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2020-10-30T15:31:03Z _death: maybe it's just me, but I don't understand the point of having lots of "transition" slides.. I guess there may be cases where it makes sense to have a short (say 2 or 3) sequence of slides that look similar but have information added/deleted, but otherwise it just obscures the content and kind of distracting during the presentation
2020-10-30T15:32:03Z phoe: _death: I like this semi-animation especially when the talk is recorded - at least for me, it informs me whenever a part of the slide has changed and that it is the part that I should pay attention to
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2020-10-30T15:35:17Z _death: it's like sending bits over a serial connection, where I the aim of each (complete) slide is to present a byte.. maybe easy if you have no/tiny buffer, but makes it more difficult to see the whole
2020-10-30T15:35:54Z phoe: I'm later going to compress the slide deck into a separate, no-animation version for printing out or something - if that is what you mean
2020-10-30T15:36:08Z dim: I did a demo the other day in our team meeting here, with people from several locations joining, and they could not see what I was typing until I did hit RET and then the command was scrolled out of the terminal's view and replaced by the output ; so you might want to make sure that people will see the transitions given network delays and things
2020-10-30T15:36:09Z _death: I see
2020-10-30T15:36:12Z phoe: this part is for showing on the screen
2020-10-30T15:36:24Z phoe: I find it better to update just a part of the screen each time rather than do multiple big repaints
2020-10-30T15:37:58Z Josh_2: Have to say I agree with _death
2020-10-30T15:38:48Z phoe: oh, just so I'm aware - you are not scrolling the slides up/down, are you?
2020-10-30T15:39:11Z phoe: these are supposed to be travelled left/right, full slide changes each time
2020-10-30T15:41:06Z _death: I'm not talking about scrolling :)
2020-10-30T15:41:18Z phoe: whew, OK
2020-10-30T15:41:34Z scymtym: phoe: i think the best way forward is recording a practice presentation. that way you will know how long it takes and you can get feedback from people here based on the intended presentation of the slides
2020-10-30T15:41:47Z Josh_2: displaying information that is important is a yes from me, but I don't think it is necessary at the start
2020-10-30T15:42:00Z phoe: scymtym: ...so, a test-drive Online Lisp Meeting?
2020-10-30T15:42:00Z Josh_2: incrementally displaying information*
2020-10-30T15:42:29Z _death: online peanut gallery
2020-10-30T15:43:57Z scymtym: phoe: i don't think there is a need to schedule a session for the practice run. you could just pass out a link and ask for feedback
2020-10-30T15:44:38Z phoe: yes
2020-10-30T15:44:42Z phoe: I'll try doing that
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2020-10-30T16:12:49Z phoe: OK, I can extend the talk to 50 minutes if necessary
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2020-10-30T16:20:08Z dbotton__: phoe 188 slides means 3 a minute for an hour
2020-10-30T16:20:54Z dbotton__: is the material for slides or as an accmopanying future reference?
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2020-10-30T16:38:59Z dbotton__: (I was not being snarky was honest question) - It seems that you may want to approach things as top down, meaning give your puch lines as to what is learned from Lisp first and then build up how it works.
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2020-10-30T16:40:33Z phoe: hm
2020-10-30T16:41:27Z ck_: I think a lot of it is really a single slide, but incrementally updated. But I second the opinion that it is a lot -- didn't know the planned time frame before.
2020-10-30T16:41:49Z phoe: I am now thinking of splitting this into a pair of 35min talks
2020-10-30T16:41:56Z phoe: one being how conditions and exceptions are different
2020-10-30T16:42:05Z phoe: the other, how conditions are a derivative of primitive control flow operators
2020-10-30T16:43:09Z dbotton__: I think you need to show your audience why they need to listen
2020-10-30T16:43:11Z dbotton__: at the start
2020-10-30T16:43:30Z dbotton__: Lips is bottom up, these are top down people :)
2020-10-30T16:43:35Z dbotton__: Lisp
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2020-10-30T16:44:07Z dbotton__: but I see what you mean in terms of slide parts
2020-10-30T16:46:13Z dbotton__: for example I found handle-case and then thinking backwards to handle bind worked better for my experience in other languages
2020-10-30T16:46:47Z phoe: actually I am not explaining how handler-case works in detail
2020-10-30T16:47:04Z dbotton__: understood, I meant top down vs bottom up
2020-10-30T16:48:05Z dbotton__: the idea is just show them how this is similar then how different and what it means to them from the start
2020-10-30T16:48:17Z dbotton__: then drill to details
2020-10-30T16:49:14Z dbotton__: (I hope I am being clear bit rushed this morning)
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2020-10-30T16:55:14Z phoe: yes, I see
2020-10-30T16:55:17Z phoe: I will think about it
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2020-10-30T20:43:02Z sm2n: in sbcl, if I (make-array '(5) :element-type '(integer 0 2)), the element-type gets upgraded to '(unsigned-byte 2) and I am able to set 3 as an element, shouldn't this error out?
2020-10-30T20:43:41Z sm2n: Additionally, does anyone know how sub-byte arrays are represented internally?
2020-10-30T20:50:06Z scymtym: the array object only has the upgrade array type, not the argument passed to MAKE-ARRAY. on the other hand, if you declare the type of a variable the value of which is an array, the implementation might check more precisely
2020-10-30T20:50:48Z Bike: internally, sbcl packs sub byte arrays into words.
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2020-10-30T20:51:22Z Bike: then they can be extracted by the obvious bitwise operations, hence the upgrading
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2020-10-30T20:53:26Z sm2n: scymtym, Bike: thanks
2020-10-30T20:54:30Z Bike: minor point on top of what scymtym said: if you DECLARE the type of an array, the implementation is allowed ot use the un-upgraded type. i don't know if sbcl or other implementations actually do, though
2020-10-30T20:55:20Z scymtym: SBCL does. try (compile nil '(lambda () (let ((a (make-array 5 :element-type '(integer 0 2)))) (declare (type (array (integer 0 2) 1) a)) (setf (aref a 0) 3) a)))
2020-10-30T20:55:33Z Bike: o ho
2020-10-30T20:56:59Z Alfr: sm2n, also (unsigned-byte 2) are the integers 0..3 .
2020-10-30T20:57:25Z Bike: yeah but their original unupgraded type doesn't include 3.
2020-10-30T20:58:08Z sm2n: huh, that's neat
2020-10-30T20:58:12Z Alfr: Ah ... yes, that as well. :)
2020-10-30T20:59:18Z Alfr: Bike, since he mentioned the upgraded type, I thought only (u-b 2) was the confusing part.
2020-10-30T20:59:37Z sm2n: yeah I could have worded that better
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2020-10-30T21:01:14Z Nilby: I am thankful that sbcl seems to wisely take the middle ground between efficiency and strict checking, since one can always optionally implement stricter type checking. It actually somehow usually achieves both stricter checking and higher efficiency than other implementations.
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2020-10-30T21:02:25Z Nilby: I'm even more thankful that the CL designers allowed for that.
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2020-10-30T21:03:42Z cl-arthur: I like that SBCL gives useful error messages when trying to use struct accessors on the wrong things
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2020-10-30T21:05:25Z Alfr: Nilby, just don't depend on it, someone might come up with an implementation in which upgraded and expressed array element types are the same.
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2020-10-30T21:06:16Z Alfr: Nilby, or check for the actual type before use. :)
2020-10-30T21:07:20Z Nilby: Alfr: I try not too, because I actually try to run on such implementations.
2020-10-30T21:07:43Z Nilby: But sadly sbcl allows me to write code that is very slow on other Lisps.
2020-10-30T21:09:14Z Nilby: We, "sadly" for those other Lisps and/or my portablity and programming style.
2020-10-30T21:09:19Z Alfr: Nilby, conforming and fast ... Sounds like a challenge.
2020-10-30T21:10:36Z Alfr: Nilby, sometimes I take the #+ route for that or just don't care about efficiency unless a profiler says otherwise.
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2020-10-30T21:11:32Z Nilby: Even thought I hadn't read Krystof's paper on it until yesterday, I stil tried to avoid #+
2020-10-30T21:12:27Z jdz: phoe: I'd suggest using ≠ instead of /=.
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2020-10-30T21:13:47Z jdz: phoe: When saying "Control flow ≠ exception handling".
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2020-10-30T21:15:58Z Alfr: Nilby, don't know the paper. But I don't know of a neat and more concise method to select code depending on the implementation.
2020-10-30T21:18:41Z Nilby: I say I try to avoid it, but I've apparently failed about 1800 times according to search.
2020-10-30T21:20:54Z Nilby: and stil my code is unacceptably slow on non-sbcl
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2020-10-30T22:13:59Z phoe: jdz: OK
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2020-10-30T23:35:27Z mfiano: Alfr: If you are concerned about muddying up your implementation code with #+, one can always design a protocol and tell ASDF to load the implementation for that protocol according to the implementation, like (:file "foo" :if-feature (:or :mezzano :abcl))
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2020-10-30T23:36:05Z mfiano: according to the CL implementation that is, the above use of "implementation" was in regard to implementing your protocol
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2020-10-30T23:50:52Z Alfr: mfiano, I don't have that many places where I decided to use it currently. But good to know that asdf can also handle it. Thanks. :)
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2020-10-31T00:28:15Z aeth: mfiano: is there a reason to use (:file "foo" :if-feature (:or :mezzano :abcl)) instead of #+(or mezzano abcl) (:file "foo") which is equivalent?
2020-10-31T00:29:28Z mfiano: Well, asd files are always loaded.
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2020-10-31T00:39:49Z Nilby: aeth: The :if-feature can more be easily be read without depeding on evaluation or environment, so simplifiing automatic processing of asd files.
2020-10-31T00:40:16Z aeth: Is there an equivalent in :depends-on?
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2020-10-31T00:41:58Z Nilby: You can use :feature in depends on.
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2020-10-31T04:33:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-10-31T05:59:25Z cl-arthur: beach: Good morning!
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2020-10-31T07:25:10Z aaaaaa: beach: !
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2020-10-31T07:35:52Z unixbsd: hello
2020-10-31T07:36:05Z unixbsd: I would like to integrate with clisp. is it possible?
2020-10-31T07:36:11Z beach: Hello unixbsd.
2020-10-31T07:36:20Z unixbsd: hi
2020-10-31T07:36:55Z beach: Do you mean CLISP (an implementation of Common Lisp) or Common Lisp in general?
2020-10-31T07:37:12Z unixbsd: On linux raspberry pi zero... clisp yeah
2020-10-31T07:37:48Z beach: I am asking because CLISP is very likely the least popular Common Lisp implementation among people here.
2020-10-31T07:38:08Z unixbsd: is there lisp for apt-get in debian linux?
2020-10-31T07:38:21Z beach: Also, what do you mean by "integrate" in this context?
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2020-10-31T07:39:16Z unixbsd: integrate f(x) = x * cos(x)   with dx and 1=>23
2020-10-31T07:39:18Z unixbsd: integrate f(x) = x * cos(x)   with dx and 1=>2
2020-10-31T07:40:07Z beach: Well, for symbolic integration you would need a system like Maxima, which is written in Common Lisp, but you can do numeric integration just like with any other language.
2020-10-31T07:40:44Z beach: And I am afraid I don't know the answer to your question about apt-get.
2020-10-31T07:40:54Z unixbsd: ah ok,... which any other language for instance?
2020-10-31T07:41:18Z unixbsd: i tried maxima but i have issue iwth the Enter key, it seems maxima hangs
2020-10-31T07:41:46Z beach: You may want to ask loke (he hangs out in #clim) about Maxima.
2020-10-31T07:42:04Z beach: Common Lisp is not that different, so you can do numeric integration with it just as you can with C or Java or C++ or ...
2020-10-31T07:42:07Z unixbsd: the solution ought this one : https://i.postimg.cc/N0dnGt4f/calc-xcosx.png
2020-10-31T07:42:31Z unixbsd: yeah, but it would not be accurate as a CAS
2020-10-31T07:42:43Z beach: Right.
2020-10-31T07:42:48Z unixbsd: I am compiling giac on pi zero. it takes long
2020-10-31T07:42:51Z beach: So then ask loke about Maxima.
2020-10-31T07:43:47Z unixbsd: done
2020-10-31T07:44:31Z beach: I didn't see your utterance in #clim.
2020-10-31T07:45:20Z unixbsd: thank you.
2020-10-31T07:45:26Z unixbsd: now it is right channmel
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2020-10-31T08:18:29Z andrew_znc: Why do people even say good morning
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2020-10-31T08:32:50Z adlai: [within the correctly-defined conjugacy relation, ]"good morning" is equivalent to the inwards output of a traced call to #'listen, and it is often considered a polite declaration.
2020-10-31T08:33:37Z adlai invariably gets the mathematics terminology wrong on the first guess, more often due more to "a little learning is a dangerous thing" than clinical dyslexia
2020-10-31T08:33:54Z ck_: some mornings might even be good -- it's not completely out of the question
2020-10-31T08:36:09Z adlai wonders how often people question-modulate "gooooood moarning?", without expecting any response.
2020-10-31T08:36:36Z adlai: clhs listen
2020-10-31T08:36:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listen.htm
2020-10-31T08:37:49Z adlai: in less irrelevant questions: I am deeply dismayed after reading a few of the "Talk" pages in the RosettaCode website.
2020-10-31T08:39:54Z adlai was planning to attack another such task, as a gentle return to producing publishable code with roughly even GC-content (for the Sufficiently Smart Garbage Collector, that discards source code and only reads comments!); however, I find that my early experiences of absolutely no opposition to editing CL entries in that site are likely to simply gum up the personal arguments between a few of the
2020-10-31T08:39:57Z adlai behemoths.
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2020-10-31T08:40:53Z adlai: so the question is: does anyone have a Common Lisp task, in the RosettaCode website, that they specifically wish to see processed?
2020-10-31T08:41:23Z adlai: it doesn't even have to be a mathematical concept you've ever encountered before, although it should probably be mathematics rather than "make peripheral move pixel!"
2020-10-31T08:42:09Z adlai: it doesn't even have to be in that one website, although that is where I had a good first experience.
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2020-10-31T08:43:08Z ck_: do they have a delaunay triangulation in their list?
2020-10-31T08:44:10Z adlai limits search to common lisp tasks, by default :)
2020-10-31T08:46:50Z adlai: pfffff, no wonder that name doesn't appear in the prepared lists: "Boris Delone got his surname from his ancestor French Army officer De Launay"
2020-10-31T08:48:32Z adlai: what's the proper parallel to wikipedia's "Disambiguation page"s? for example, "what other name could a different website possibly use for describing <algorithm>"
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2020-10-31T08:49:57Z adlai gets the impression, from skimming the wikipedia page, that this algorithm is slightly too specific to be a popular one for chrestomathy; although, the search will now continue, back at the upstack site.
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2020-10-31T09:01:53Z adlai enjoys pretending dyslexia, possibly even a little too much: it lends the seemingly-sterile website an absence of lifelessness, to double-take and reread "Damn Algorithm"
2020-10-31T09:04:06Z adlai: and they have wonderful punts along the lines of "Fairshare between two and more", which I naturally read as "two must share fairly, while depersonalized More watch"
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2020-10-31T09:09:43Z adlai: ck_: should such a task's description stipulate any rendering whatsoever?
2020-10-31T09:10:34Z adlai: there are often solutions that provide rudimentary rendering to make clear the algorithm's purpose; it leads to a much more rapid triage than "read pageful of mathematics, now you have implemented the algorithm in mathematics"
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2020-10-31T09:18:32Z adlai is tempted to sneak one in as an "inefficient, due to bonus algorithm" solution, to the "Voronoi Diagram" page
2020-10-31T09:20:12Z adlai: that is a bad idea, because there appears to be spontaneous consensus among solvers of the "Voronoi Diagram" task that, despite the total absence of the stem "dimen" from the text, the words "and more" are superfluous.
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2020-10-31T09:22:17Z ck_: adlai: a triangulation does not need rendering to be valid.  Also, I believe creating a Voronoi Diagram by first constructing the Delaunay Triangulation, then computing its dual, is a little more easily done than implementing the Voronoi partition directly
2020-10-31T09:22:31Z adlai: my impression, before reading the author's description of the original problem, and his proposed algorithm, is that a heuristic approach violates an unspecified expectation of determinism, even in the cases of equivalently-optimal triangulations.
2020-10-31T09:24:01Z adlai: ck_: well, I am inclined to agree with that belief, because the two-dimensional examples appear to discard information from the dual; however, this violates my misguided mathematical intuition.
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2020-10-31T09:30:36Z adlai: ck_: exhaustive search abandoned; heuristic converged on "no".
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2020-10-31T09:48:45Z adlai will have failed his own unspecified constraint if he needs to open Oxford's there-and-back-again spinal compression paperweight while reading various incidental guidelines in the website hosting the old paper
2020-10-31T09:49:28Z adlai: understanding the content is difficult, although I have convinced myself that most of the words can be pronounced understandably.
2020-10-31T09:54:17Z adlai: ugh, after all that multilinguality theatre, their foreign downloader license agreement is in english.
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2020-10-31T13:42:57Z jfb4: kite.com has code completion for many languages using ML.  Is there a similar tool for Lisp? Or is that less necessary for Lisp given the higher density of information (ie other languages have more boilerplate)? Thoughts welcome
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2020-10-31T13:44:37Z reb: I have not seen anything like that for Lisp.
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2020-10-31T13:50:59Z Xach: jfb4: slime give hints and some completion but not in the same style.
2020-10-31T13:52:30Z Xach: jfb4: i think programming languages that bundle functions as properties of classes or objects make certain kinds of completion easier than lisp's everything-looks-like-a-function-call style
2020-10-31T13:52:55Z Xach: I think there's plenty of room for nicer tools but not the skill or time to make it.
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2020-10-31T13:59:13Z Xach: There's a local defunct rock band named "space versus speed" and I wonder if they were CL hackers.
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2020-10-31T14:04:30Z beach: I wonder whether the Common Lisp package system could play a role similar to that of a class in traditional object-oriented languages, as far as completion goes.
2020-10-31T14:06:06Z beach: With package-local nicknames, it may be possible to just type a prefix such as e: and then get a list of exported symbols to choose from.  Not sure that's enough of course.
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2020-10-31T14:06:53Z beach: The role of a symbol could be used as well, like if it is in a function position or a variable position.
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2020-10-31T14:08:03Z MichaelRaskin: With SBCL-level type inference, given a function name an argument could be known to have to come from a more narrow set of options
2020-10-31T14:08:19Z beach: That too.
2020-10-31T14:13:16Z dim: easye wow thank! phoe the value of pgloader.jar is all to be found in the capacity to use JDBC drivers (native java drivers) where Common Lisp drivers don't exist or are of poor quality and unmaintained, such as, well, anything other than SQLite and Postgres so far
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2020-10-31T15:02:53Z phoe: dim: I'm aware, I was kidding :D
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2020-10-31T17:36:55Z sm2n: beach, package level symbol completion works for me in SLY
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2020-10-31T18:02:11Z asdflkj: hi, noob question, I've been following along Land of Lisp in GNU clisp, but now I need to transfer my work effectively to a new computer
2020-10-31T18:02:33Z asdflkj: is there a simple way to dump everything I've typed into a .lisp file?
2020-10-31T18:02:56Z phoe: asdflkj: what do you mean, typed? where did you type it?
2020-10-31T18:02:58Z Bike: clhs dribble
2020-10-31T18:02:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dribbl.htm
2020-10-31T18:03:06Z asdflkj: phoe: into the repl
2020-10-31T18:03:18Z Bike: i think you ahve to do that before you start repling, though? i have no idea
2020-10-31T18:03:21Z phoe: oh! so it is already in the Lisp image
2020-10-31T18:03:30Z phoe: you could try dumping the image and restoring it on another computer
2020-10-31T18:03:44Z Bike: usually i'd just copy paste out of the termina.
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2020-10-31T18:05:25Z asdflkj: I guess I'll look up how to dump the image and hope that works, but also tmux capture-pane in case it doesn't and I need to copypasta
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2020-10-31T18:05:55Z asdflkj: but I wish I could just save to a .lisp that I could then edit with a real text editor
2020-10-31T18:06:10Z Bike: you can just do that first and then load the file
2020-10-31T18:06:11Z Bike: clhs load
2020-10-31T18:06:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm
2020-10-31T18:06:20Z phoe: I don't have the problem you're describing because I usually type my Lisp code into a file and send it to get compile-and-loaded in Lisp via slime/swank
2020-10-31T18:06:41Z phoe: whenever I change anything in the file I can reevaluate the individual form or the whole file
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2020-10-31T18:12:31Z asdflkj: slime definetely looks better, but I was hoping to procrastinate learning it until after learning lisp
2020-10-31T18:12:37Z asdflkj: learning emacs*
2020-10-31T18:13:05Z Bike: just keep in mind that, as you've already discovered, the repl alone is kind of a crappy way to develop
2020-10-31T18:13:37Z Bike: by the way, when you say gnu clisp you mean https://clisp.sourceforge.io/ right? not https://www.gnu.org/software/gcl/ ?
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2020-10-31T18:14:37Z asdflkj: I think so
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2020-10-31T18:15:14Z asdflkj: I just installed the clisp_2.49 from my distro's repos
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2020-10-31T18:15:22Z Bike: kay. the second one is notably kind of crappy so it's worth keeping in mind
2020-10-31T18:15:24Z asdflkj: and invoke it as `clisp`
2020-10-31T18:16:48Z phoe: asdflkj: slime is the proper way of using Lisp interactively - allowing you to work on multiple windows at the same time, including source code, REPL, debugger, and inspector
2020-10-31T18:17:18Z phoe: also cross-references, finding callers/callees and such
2020-10-31T18:17:58Z asdflkj: phoe: it does sound like the best way, but I'm just trying to learn lisp itself right now and learn emace if/when I really grow to like lisp
2020-10-31T18:18:06Z asdflkj: emacs*
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2020-10-31T18:18:41Z phoe: yep, I understand that; the troublesome thing is that it requires learning emacs, which is a tough thing
2020-10-31T18:18:56Z phoe: however I know that slyblime for sublime text and atom-slime for atom also exist; I have not tried them though
2020-10-31T18:19:04Z asdflkj: I'm using vis
2020-10-31T18:19:20Z asdflkj: a modern vi, simpler than vim
2020-10-31T18:19:40Z Bike: there's slimv. dunno if it works with vis though.
2020-10-31T18:19:41Z asdflkj: and kind of like sublime bc it supports multiple cursors natively
2020-10-31T18:20:45Z asdflkj: Bike: no, I don't think it would. But I might not mind switching to nvim if it's really worth it
2020-10-31T18:22:35Z asdflkj: but just vis *.lisp; then :w and ^Z clisp -i *.lisp seems like the best option for just dipping my toes in lisp
2020-10-31T18:27:06Z asdflkj: but thank you phoe and Bike
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2020-10-31T18:27:52Z pve: asdflkj: you could have the editor in one terminal, and lisp in another, so you don't need to suspend the editor all the time
2020-10-31T18:28:21Z asdflkj: good point
2020-10-31T18:29:13Z pve: and in lisp, you might define a simple convenience function (defun r () (load "mylispfile.lisp"))
2020-10-31T18:29:52Z pve: so you can reload your changes without quitting lisp
2020-10-31T18:31:10Z asdflkj: done, thanks!
2020-10-31T18:33:08Z pve: asdflkj: and if you're lazy, you might even do (define-symbol-macro rr (r))
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2020-10-31T18:37:52Z asdflkj: pve: even better! I'm so new I literaly haven't learned how to define macros yet (or to spell that l work, lol)
2020-10-31T18:38:08Z asdflkj: so I wouldn't have been able to do it without you, thanks!
2020-10-31T18:39:16Z pve: asdflkj: that's alright, it's important to achieve a tight feedback loop even if your not using any fancy tools
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2020-10-31T18:40:12Z pve: i wonder if you could trigger a reload from within the editor..
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2020-10-31T18:41:58Z asdflkj: probably
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2020-10-31T18:45:28Z asdflkj: `:map normal gr ":w<Enter>:!clisp -i $vis_filepath"` is a start
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2020-10-31T18:49:00Z asdflkj: the only thing that may be a disadvantage (?) is completely restarting the repl every time I modify the code
2020-10-31T18:49:22Z asdflkj: so maybe I'll do a tmux hack
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2020-10-31T19:06:40Z asdflkj: alright, I've got `:map! normal gr ":w<Enter>:!tmux select-pane -R; tmux send-keys r r Enter <Enter>"`
2020-10-31T19:06:45Z asdflkj: using the rr macro
2020-10-31T19:08:02Z asdflkj: so now `gr` in normal mode saves the file, switches terminal panes, and sends the keys rr and hits Enter
2020-10-31T19:08:37Z Bike: depending on your code, you may be able to reload it without restarting the implementation
2020-10-31T19:08:41Z Bike: functions can be redefined and etc
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2020-10-31T19:20:44Z pve: asdflkj: sounds great
2020-10-31T19:21:08Z asdflkj: pve: thanks
2020-10-31T19:21:36Z pve: no problem, happy hacking
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2020-10-31T21:24:49Z meowphius: did you guys know that CIL, the policy language of SELinux (by the NSA) is written in a lispish language? https://selinuxproject.org/page/PolicyLanguage
2020-10-31T21:27:18Z phoe: huh
2020-10-31T21:27:30Z phoe: the fact that it's written in S-expressions does not yet make it Lisp - WASM is a good example of that
2020-10-31T21:27:45Z meowphius: sorry, meant s-expressions
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2020-10-31T21:33:13Z moon-child: tbf, most attempts to make a lisp syntax that aren't sexpy have been garbage (see: m-exprs, tree notation), so it's easy to conflate the two
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2020-10-31T21:41:47Z asdflkj: does haskell count?
2020-10-31T21:42:05Z Duuqnd: no
2020-10-31T21:43:06Z asdflkj: also, why do I see so many moonchildren. I use Palemoon by moonchild, I've seen a moonchild on Hacker News recently, and now I see a moon-child.
2020-10-31T21:43:44Z asdflkj: by Moonchild Productions*
2020-10-31T21:43:54Z phoe: it is full moon today and therefore lunar activity is very high
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2020-10-31T21:46:52Z Gnuxie[m]: call her moonchild, dancing in the shallows of a river
2020-10-31T21:52:19Z aeth: Lisp syntax has two weaknesses... (1) 1D array access (most languages have something convenient like "a[1]", on the other hand AREF makes it easier to have 0D, 2D, 3D, etc. arrays)
2020-10-31T21:52:33Z aeth: and (2) infix arithmetic looks a bit awkward in prefix if you've never seen it before
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2020-10-31T21:53:00Z Duuqnd: I wouldn't consider those to be weaknesses
2020-10-31T21:53:29Z asdflkj: as an absolute noob at lisp who likes bash, I hate writing functions that run on the eachother in the opposite order from the one they run
2020-10-31T21:54:06Z asdflkj: I miss writing pipelines from left to right
2020-10-31T21:56:11Z aeth: Duuqnd: it's more, you don't even notice the difference between s-expressions and not, until you need to convert (4 * (a[1] + b[2])) / 3
2020-10-31T21:56:52Z aeth: that one in particular isn't that bad, though... (/ (* 4 (+ (aref a 1) (aref b 2))) 3)
2020-10-31T21:57:09Z aeth: And you can construct ones that are more convenient, like if you have a lot of consecutive additions or multiplications.
2020-10-31T21:58:05Z aeth: Ones where you idiomatically would put fewer parentheses in infix (my example only adds one pair if you don't count the [] replacements) are arguably the worst translations.
2020-10-31T21:58:34Z MichaelRaskin: I often find myself using some kind of pipe-like macro in Common Lisp
2020-10-31T21:58:56Z MichaelRaskin: These are usually not hard to write (and some are available in existing libraries)
2020-10-31T21:59:01Z aeth: I think the real question is, should you weaken the rest of the language's syntax in order to make this fairly common edge case more convenient? (Or others that are probably a bit less common.) And I'm guessing, probably not.
2020-10-31T21:59:17Z aeth: Some non-CL Lisps come with some form of "inline" infix for arithmetic, though.
2020-10-31T21:59:31Z MichaelRaskin: But yeah, there are cases where shell pipelines are just more convenient. As long as you do not do too much in each step…
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2020-10-31T21:59:58Z MichaelRaskin: There are even reader macros for Common Lisp and infix arithmetics, I think
2020-10-31T22:01:26Z aeth: I've even written a toy one (it's not as flexible as you'd want for real use) for one of my meme projects. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/lisp-hello-world
2020-10-31T22:01:36Z aeth: for this hello world: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/lisp-hello-world/-/blob/c45deaab9918285d3de43c52340100fef6591d15/main.lisp
2020-10-31T22:02:04Z aeth: I don't think anyone would like a project that used it, though. I guess unless array arithmetic was really, really, really the heart of the project and it really helped. You're still basically making a different DSL and embedding it, though.
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2020-10-31T22:09:26Z moon-child: asdflkj: I'm the moonchild on HN.  Didn't make palemoon, though (I have better taste than to touch web stuff :)
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2020-10-31T22:10:40Z asdflkj: the reason I use Palemoon is that I have better taste than to touch web extensions. Pentadactyl = <3
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2020-10-31T22:11:03Z moon-child: qutebrowser?
2020-10-31T22:11:20Z moon-child: (or, perhaps more to the point, waterfox.  These days I just use straight ff tho)
2020-10-31T22:12:05Z moon-child: (also nyxt, though it doesn't seem to work on freebsd)
2020-10-31T22:12:10Z asdflkj: I might try luakit later, and if/when I fall in love with lisp, configure it with fennel
2020-10-31T22:13:39Z aeth: On a second read, I should note that, MichaelRaskin's pipe-style macros that sort of mix up the evaluation rules are way less out of place than infix reader macros.
2020-10-31T22:21:12Z aeth: If it requires a macro, it might work. If it requires a reader macro, it's a tough sell to get anyone to use it.
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2020-10-31T22:53:22Z lottaquestions: minion: what is alexandria
2020-10-31T22:53:27Z minion: maybe you need to ask my master, chandler - he knows a lot
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